From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Apr 1 00:35:34 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:33 2005 Subject: Paging the following folks... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990331223534.00956470@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Please pardon this somewhat unusual use of the list, but I've gotten no response whatsoever to E-mails. PAGING TIM SHOPPA, JOE RIGDON, AND MIKE McMANUS... Will the three of you please get in touch with me, via E-mail, ASAP, regarding your participation in the Teledisk group buy? I have sent repeated E-mails in your direction concerning the group buy. I have not received so much as an acknowledgement to any of them. If you are still interested in participating, please respond. If I do not hear from you, I will assume that you are no longer interested, and I will release your shares to those on the waiting list. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Apr 1 00:59:02 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:36 2005 Subject: PAGING: Martin Marshall and Frank McConnel Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990331225902.0095f4a0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Gentlemen, I attempted to send Teledisk to you electronically tonight. Here's what happened. MARTIN: The mail bounced, using the address martinm@allwest.net with an 'Unknown User' error. Please provide a current address that will allow you to receive a 100K+ file attach. FRANK: Your system rejected the send because of the attach. Apparently, reanimators.org has a 100K size limit. Can you provide an alternate address? Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Apr 1 01:41:52 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:37 2005 Subject: PAGING: Martin Marshall and Frank McConnel In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990331225902.0095f4a0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from "Bruce Lane" at Mar 31, 1999 10:59:02 PM Message-ID: <199904010741.AAA06053@calico.litterbox.com> Um... I didn't get it either. > > Gentlemen, > > I attempted to send Teledisk to you electronically tonight. Here's what > happened. > > MARTIN: The mail bounced, using the address martinm@allwest.net with an > 'Unknown User' error. Please provide a current address that will allow you > to receive a 100K+ file attach. > > FRANK: Your system rejected the send because of the attach. Apparently, > reanimators.org has a 100K size limit. Can you provide an alternate address? > > Thanks in advance. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own > human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From bluoval at mindspring.com Thu Apr 1 02:14:52 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: [Fwd: FS: Sun SPARCclassic machines] Message-ID: <37032AFC.B47D2380@mindspring.com> Anyone interested? Just saw it and thought someone here might want it. refer all questions to the original poster. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: FS: Sun SPARCclassic machines Date: 1 Apr 1999 04:22:17 GMT From: Jonathan Hall Organization: SouthWind Internet Access, Inc. Newsgroups: misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware,misc.forsale.computers.other.misc I have two Sun SPARCclassic "lunchbox-style" machines available. One with 24mb RAM, one with 48mb RAM. Each has a 540mb SCSI hard drive, no floppy drive. I have a 19" greyscale monitor for each one, although shipping is a bit expensive on those (estimated $35 within the U.S.). I'm asking $200 for the 24mb system and $250 for the 48mb system, or make an offer. Each system has SunOS 5.5 installed, although I do not have passwords for either of them so a reinstallation will likely be required. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Jonathan Hall * jonhall@future.goessel.ks.us * PGP public key available http://www2.southwind.net/~jonhall * PGP Key ID: FE 00 FD 51 -= Running Debian Linux, kernel 2.0.30 =- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From russmiller at jps.net Thu Apr 1 03:15:44 1999 From: russmiller at jps.net (Russ Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: HP 9845B <- free paper Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990401011502.0070f96c@jps.net> I've got several cartons of paper for the HP 9845 that I'd like to get rid of (you pay shipping or pick up in Sacramento, CA area), as well as a HP 9876A thermal printer (heavy) and a few boxes of paper for it. Russ Miller mailto:russmiller@jps.net From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 1 06:49:40 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: <19990401005608.5472.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) Message-ID: <199904011050.MAA11439@horus.mch.sni.de> > > Are you claiming that it's impossible to have a modem where there are > > 9600 transitions/second on the 'line' side? Because if so, I don't > > believe you. > I'm claiming that it's not possible to have a 9600 baud modem on a POTS > line. Obviously it is possible on other transmission lines or media with > greater bandwidth. Hmm, now we run again in definition problems. POTS is about analouge transmition, but the media isn't as clear as you might think. Depending on the kind of connection, and the used the bandwidth may reach up beyond 30 kHz, alowing rates of more than 100 Kbps transmission - remember, POTS starts as direct coupled line until the PBX, now ifthis is a _real_ old PBX and the partner is on the same PBX there are only the amplifiers to reduce bandwide. If it is a _real_ old (pre 1938) long distance line again the bandwide is only limited by the bandwidth of the amplifiers (since the cables are normaly usable beyond them - exeptions may occure, but thats a different storie, which I had to learn the hard way). Only if there are filters inbetween, which are only necersary if the signal is going to be multiplexed for high capacity long distance lines (and radio connections) the Bandwidth is reduced. But in fact, this is all history, POTS no longer exists over here since years. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 1 06:49:40 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: <19990331234205.4847.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199903312150.AA03296@world.std.com> (mbg@world.std.com) Message-ID: <199904011050.MAA11443@horus.mch.sni.de> > [56K/ISDN technology] > However, as previously noted, 56K modems actually operate at 8000 baud, > with up to 7 bits/symbol. AFAIK the US ISDN uses only 56K chanels - or am I wrong ? > Anyhow, this is OT for another 7 years or so. Depends on personal experiance - I got my hands on ISDN equippment first in 1981, and used ISDN Parts for my own design first in 1985 (to rebuild an /370 Mainframe into a voice mail system). So, from this point it is clearly older than 10 years, if you have (had) access to the early development samples - but Even when thinking of mass availability, ISDN and ISDN based technologies already fit into the 10Y rule - at least here in Germany. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 1 08:21:08 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: Computer busses.... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990330103827.009e3d00@texas.net> Message-ID: <199904011222.OAA22258@horus.mch.sni.de> > I'm thinking a stripped down Z-bus (without the M1 signal and etc). What > else should be on a bus besides: Maybe take a look at the Z380 Bus - again a design to include the best ideas of two worlds (like the Z80 has been). Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 1 09:42:23 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: Looking for 8008 language software (PL/M, MASM, BASIC,...) In-Reply-To: <000201be7ba7$af90cd50$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990401094223.47e76654@intellistar.net> John, I think I have all of that stuff on 8" floppy disks for the Intel MDS but I don't know if it is 8080 only or if it will produce 8008 code. Do you know anything about what version you need? Joe At 01:52 PM 3/31/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi. I'm new to the list and this is my first posting. I am looking for >PL/M cross compiler that Intel produced for the 8008 CPU. I have the Intel >manual, but no source or object for the language compiler, which was written >in Fortran by Gary Kildall when he worked for Intel back in ~1973. I have >source for an 8080 version of PL/M from Intel which went into the public >domain at some time, but I do not believe that it will produce 8008 code >(that ability is not mentioned in the documentation). Any help or >information on this would be appreciated. > >Also, a macro assembler or a basic interpreter would also be appreciated! > >Anything would be better than hand assembling and jamming in bytes via >switches. > > >Thanks, > >John > >- John Lewczyk >- IO Consulting >- 401 Queens Row Street >- Herndon, Virginia 20170-3131 >- jlewczyk@his.com > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 1 09:45:52 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: Timonium Hamfest In-Reply-To: <199903311819.AA04754@world.std.com> References: <199903310055.QAA04178@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990401094552.47e76652@intellistar.net> At 01:19 PM 3/31/99 -0500, several people wrote: > > >Good Stuff --| * <- higher, more fixed prices > | * > | * > | * > | * > | * > | ** > | *** <- approx best price/value ratio... > | **** > | ******* >Just Junk --| *** <- lowest prices > +-+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--> > 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 01 > AM AM AM AM AM AM PM PM Everyone agrees about the price/availability curve. The difference is are you looking for common stuff like C-64s or something rare like Lisas and Altairs. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 1 09:51:31 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: Collectors list In-Reply-To: References: <19990331161230.AAA1044@1Cust246.tnt32.dfw5.da.uu.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990401095131.47e75eca@intellistar.net> At 12:09 PM 3/31/99 -0800, you wrote: >On Wed, 31 Mar 1999, emanuel stiebler wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> Because i feel so lonely here in Denver, i got the idea of collecting a >> list of the listmembers. I simply want to see, in what areas you can meet >> people an what they collecting. >> >> I think a list with only a zip code, name, which computer/other stuff you >> collect should do it. >> >> What do you think ? >> >> cheers, >> emanuel >> > >I think that zip codes are only useful for mailing. Agreed. If you going to give you zip code you may as well give city and state too. They're a lot more usefull. If you're concerned with privacy then I should point out the it's not that difficult to convert zip code to city and state so giving zip code only doesn't guarantee privacy. Joe Rigdon, Oviedo (Orlando area), Florida. From william at ans.net Thu Apr 1 08:24:30 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: Floor tiles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't think that is a floor tile. If you'll know the floor is carpeted, > and the tile is mirrored. I have been in plenty of rooms with carpeted floor tiles, and most floor tiles have a sheet metal underside. I still think it is a tile. William Donzelli william@ans.net From mbg at world.std.com Thu Apr 1 08:47:21 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A rebuild project Was: Re: Post-move diary Message-ID: <199904011447.AA18740@world.std.com> >I've got it in the wrong way round several times and it's never done any >damage. It just doesn't work (no display at all IIRC). > >Berg cables in DEC machines are rarely keyed, alas. Actually, I can point to a number of counter-examples of that... Anyway, I'm simply going to keep the cables in the machine in case I want to do it at a later time... I have so many other things to do with the machine to get it running first... >I've found the VT11 prints - sort of. I've got the schematics of the 3 >boards : > >M7013 Display Control >A320 Display Generator >M7104 Bus control + bootstrap They might be useful at some point... but not yet (I haven't even found my VT11 boardset, if I have one). >What I don't have is any information on the backplane. So I don't think >I'll be of much use at the moment. Again, problem is moot until I have more of the required pieces... I'll keep you in mind for the other info though at some point... >I know I don't have the LPS printset. I do have a minimally-configured >LPS somewhere, though. I haven't opened mine up yet to see what I have... if you can easily get to yours, it might help to have info on board order, and UNIBUS connection point... (I take it a terminator has to be in the LPS since it connects to the UNIBUS itself...) BTW - It was pointed out to me that the file containing the picture of my haul was somehow protected... I've taken care of it. Look for a trip writeup with pictures in the near future (I've got it mostly written, I just have to insert the thumbnails and links to the full pictures)... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Apr 1 08:58:23 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A rebuild project Was: Re: Post-move diary Message-ID: <199904011458.AA29522@world.std.com> >Wow! Cool! Looks like you have a W9042 Extender Board which is >specifically described as part of the FP11-A Option in my KK11-A tech >manual and by association, one is also part of the KK11-A cache option. >The manual mentions: "The W9042 Extender board Assy. is stored in the >backplane and used for some maintenance operations." Great... >When you have to use an extender board to troubleshoot the adjacent M8265 >in a cache-option-only system, the W9042 plugs into the top connector on >the M8268 Cache module and then the over-the-top connector plugs the two >together. If troubleshooting the M8268, then the W9042 is plugged into >the top conn of the 8265 and the o-t-t conn board connects both together. >Neat! Aha... that was the missing piece... having one of the boards on an extender... it all makes sense now... >Same for troubleshooting the systems with both cache and FP11 options >except two W9042s are used. I actually seem to remember another one somewhere in my collection, I'll have to check someday to see if it is... >I've got an extra set of them too plus a cache. No spare FP11 tho. Notice >how heavy that FP11 is? Sure is a lot of 'stone' in all those AMD 2901s! Yep... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From arfonrg at texas.net Thu Apr 1 09:08:38 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: Computer busses.... (& Z-380) In-Reply-To: <199904011222.OAA22258@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <3.0.3.32.19990330103827.009e3d00@texas.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990401090838.0094f4e0@texas.net> At 02:22 PM 4/1/99 +1, you wrote: > >> I'm thinking a stripped down Z-bus (without the M1 signal and etc). What >> else should be on a bus besides: > >Maybe take a look at the Z380 Bus - again a design to include >the best ideas of two worlds (like the Z80 has been). I've got 4 Z380s!! I want to put together a parallel processor machine with a cool front panel of LEDs and switches.... I don't care for the Z380's extra pins like the Low address pin, medium address pin and hig address pins. Do I really need to connect the M1 pin to anything? I mean why would I need to insert wait states if the memory is faster than the processor? Explain something to me... On a reception of an INT signal, the processor jumps to a set memory location and starts executing the code. Right? What is a vectored interrupt (it's been a LONG time since I wired uPs and I can't remember.)? ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From mbg at world.std.com Thu Apr 1 09:08:57 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: PDP 11/73 Message-ID: <199904011508.AA09486@world.std.com> > Well, since it was in the rack and feeling lonely and neglected, I >fired up my 11/73 tonight; the first example of DEC stuff I ever >owned. It is not in a DEC chassis, actually it is only about 40 >percent DEC. It is running RT11SJ V5.01. It has a full-height 5" >HD as DL: and one 8" floppy as DY: (RX02). It was used in a speech >pathology research lab and all that software is still on it, tho >I've no idea how to invoke it at this time. It has the usual >Fortran, Basic, and Cobol systems. I've used the Basic interpreter >to write some little programs just to play with it. > > It also has an RSX runtime system on it, but it asks for a >user/password which of course I don't have. Anyone have any idea >how to defeat this? RSX Runtime system? Under RT-11? Or on a separate disk? Passwords on an RT system? Not normally... you may be running some special software... > I am looking for the following: The 11/73 Processor manual. An >RL11-type controller card so I can hook up an RL02 to it. >Information on how to determine/configure the port assignments.. I >would like to have a line printer device and also a modem (for >Kermitting) but it has 8 ports on two cards, one of which is the >console port I found by repeatedly booting the system and watching >port pins with a scope. Sounds like a couple of DLV11-Js... 4 line serial async cards. > The model of the SLUs escapes me at the moment, and I'm too tired >to go pull the thing out from the rack and take the back off and get >the numbers. I just want to know how RT11 assigns and communicates >with it's ports. M8043 if it is a DLV11-J... As for configurating the ports, the console always has to be at the address 177560, with a vector of 60. The DLV11-J allows one of the ports to be the console. The other ports are configured for successive addresses in the range 176500 and up, with the vectors in the floating range (300-476). You're going to need to let us know what boards you really have, and then we can tell you what documentation you'll need to configure them. I would suspect, however, that it has already been configured for the software you have on it. RT-11 as distributed only knows about one terminal - the console, at the standard address. To support more than one terminal, you would have to do a sysgen (system generation, in which a new monitor is built using conditionals specified to the sysgen procedure). But remember, RT-11 is single-user, so even if you have multiple terminals, only one can be the console, and only the console can initiate programs. Such programs *can* then allocate the other terminals and control them (such as in the multi-user BASIC which is available for RT-11) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From rickb at pail.enginet.com Thu Apr 1 09:28:04 1999 From: rickb at pail.enginet.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: Multi-User BASIC In-Reply-To: <199904011508.AA09486@world.std.com> Message-ID: <004701be7c54$3c667fc0$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> Anyone out there have Multi-User BASIC for PDP-8? I recently acquired a PDP-8/E with 24K of memory (16K core, 8K solid state), KE8-E EAE, KM8-E Memory Extension/Timeshare, RK8-E with 2 RK05's PT8-E w/High Speed Paper Tape Reader/Punch, and three M8650 serial cards. If someone has a 'load' image for the Supnik emulator, I can get it pushed over to the 8. It'd be great fun to bring it up and play with it on a 'real' machine. Does multi-user BASIC require an operating system (IE: OS/8) to run? If so, what version? I currently have a fairly messed up, but bootable version of OS/8 V3Q on one RK05, but that's it, and no facilities as of yet to load a new operating system, but working on it. Thanks, Rick Bensene The Old Calculators Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/7510 From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 1 09:31:05 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: Computer busses.... (& Z-380) Message-ID: <003401be7c54$a9156000$0100c0a8@fuj03> A vectored interrupt is one in which the interrupting device provides part of the interrupt address. On the Z-80, this was done by the peripheral when it saw the processor's interrupt acknowledge sequence and this meant that it had to "see" both the M1 and the IORQ signals. It then reset its interrupt logic when it saw the RETI instruction being fetched. As you may have concluded, the Z-80 peripherals had to be as fast as the processor, and had to have access to the necessary processor control signals. I've never tried running a fast processor with slow peripherals and only slow the processor down to the peripheral rate when M1 or IOREQ were active. That might actually work so long as the peripheral had time to get its bus-side task finished before its next transaction came along. That might be a way to decouple the peripherals and processor. What I normally did is run the I/O cycles slowly(4 MHz), insert a wait state in the M1 cycle, and not use the Z-80 peripherals. That way I didn't have to present the M1 and IOREQ signals to each peripheral. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Arfon Gryffydd To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 01, 1999 8:16 AM Subject: Re: Computer busses.... (& Z-380) >At 02:22 PM 4/1/99 +1, you wrote: >> >>> I'm thinking a stripped down Z-bus (without the M1 signal and etc). What >>> else should be on a bus besides: >> >>Maybe take a look at the Z380 Bus - again a design to include >>the best ideas of two worlds (like the Z80 has been). > >I've got 4 Z380s!! I want to put together a parallel processor machine >with a cool front panel of LEDs and switches.... I don't care for the >Z380's extra pins like the Low address pin, medium address pin and hig >address pins. > >Do I really need to connect the M1 pin to anything? I mean why would I need >to insert wait states if the memory is faster than the processor? > >Explain something to me... On a reception of an INT signal, the processor >jumps to a set memory location and starts executing the code. Right? What >is a vectored interrupt (it's been a LONG time since I wired uPs and I >can't remember.)? >---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... >######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # >#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## >####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### >###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### >##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### ># ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) >---------------------------------------- >Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > >Slackware Mailing List: >http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 1 09:36:10 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: Terak software In-Reply-To: <199904010427.EAA10985@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990401093610.0111e9d0@vpwisfirewall> At 04:27 AM 4/1/99 GMT, Lawrence LeMay wrote: >I finally got one of my Teraks setup again, and started going over the old >software collection. Played a game of Asteroids, perhaps i'll try rogue >next. I dont think the guys who were working on PacMan ever completed >that game for the Terak, Dang it. I suppose that one was pretty tough >to animate on a LSI-11, 70's based computer system. > >Does anyone know if there are any ftp sites that contain Terak software, >or perhaps RT11 for the Terak? There aren't many Terak owners out here. :-) A number of relevant links are on my Jefferson Computer Museum web page at and don't forget to visit the UCSD P-System exhibit in the west wing on your way out. As explained on my page, I've archived a number of disk images by performing the "filer / copy / #5: / REMOTE:" operation under the P-System. This sends a logical disk image out the serial port, where I capture it using the venerable Pro-YAM telecom package. (Now there's a guy who belongs on this list .) I wrote portable utilities (also available on my web page) that will perform directory listings of UCSD and RT-11 disk images made in this way. They'll also "burst" the files from them, optionally translating line endings along the way. I was part of the Teledisk purchase, and hope to connect a spare eight-inch drive to a spare PC one of these days, and find a reliable way to write these disk image files back to Terak floppies. Another annoyance I'd like to fix and side-step is the issue of bad sectors. The above raw-copy procedure works fine as long as there is no disk error. If a sector is bad, the version of the P-System I'd been using would become unstable, requiring a reboot. (I never got around to testing newer versions of the OS to see if this glitch had been fixed.) Either way, what this calls for is an improved disk-reading program that gracefully detects and recovers from bad sectors. Also, I think it argues for an alternative disk archive format that stored meta-information to indicate the known-bad sectors. I think Teledisk or Anadisk or some such utility has a documented format for this, and I think I even started to write a utility to swap between pure binary images and that format. As for software, I've been meaning to get a copy of the AT&T Mini-Unix from Mark Riordan (see link on my page). I've got several versions of the UCSD P-System and RT-11, as well as factory diagnostic diskettes. - John From bill at chipware.com Thu Apr 1 10:14:17 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: Timonium Hamfest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201be7c5a$b137fd50$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Ok... What is it about hamfests that cause otherwise sane individuals to get up at the crack of dawn? Almost every computer involved person I know who has any control of their work schedule: 1) Gets up after the sun has properly warmed the earth where they live 2) Eats lunch for breakfast 3) Eats dinner for lunch 4) Has Chinese delivered at 1 a.m. for dinner 5) Sleeps till 2 or 3 p.m. on Saturday if at all possible From bill at chipware.com Thu Apr 1 10:29:31 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: Classic color video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301be7c5c$d1c02aa0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> For anybody that's keeping score... C4P display options: 1) Panasonic TR-120 mono composite monitor - good mono display 2) Cheap Sears brand 13" color TV, video in - no good, fuzzy patches where characters should be 3) Hauppauge video capture card, NTSC in - no good, looks same as #2 4) Toshiba 27" color TV - works fine, nice picture after a little adjustment to the TV and whatever that pot on the back of the C4 is #3 is very disapointing becuase I was going to capture screens to put on an eventual OSI web site. Would running the signal through an RF modulator to the antenna in on #2 and #3 possibly correct the problems? From elvey at hal.com Thu Apr 1 10:57:22 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: <19990401005608.5472.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199904011657.IAA03681@civic.hal.com> Eric Smith wrote: > > Are you claiming that it's impossible to have a modem where there are > > 9600 transitions/second on the 'line' side? Because if so, I don't > > believe you. > > I'm claiming that it's not possible to have a 9600 baud modem on a POTS > line. Obviously it is possible on other transmission lines or media with > greater bandwidth. > > > What was the official use of this stick? Some kind of packing/transit > > clamping device? > > Yes. I agree, it isn't possible to do 9600 transitions/second on a POTS line. 9600 baud modems don't do 9600 transitions/second, they encode more information with what is called quadrature encoding. Don't confuse data encoding rates with transition rates, they aren't the same. Dwight From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 1 10:55:17 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) In-Reply-To: <199904010314.WAA17521@armigeron.com> References: <002d01be7be3$19bc0e20$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 31, 99 06:57:38 pm Message-ID: > I've worked at a company that discouraged comments in code because ``The >code IS the documentation.'' And don't forget that programmers in general >hate to document, you end up with crap like we have today (well, that and >programmers can't program either, but that's a different rant ... ) I inherited an assembly language program where the original programmer ran into the limit for input text file size. So what does he do, maybe break the code up into logical segments? Nyet, he deletes all the comments, lots more room now. Followed of course by moving out of state. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Apr 1 10:23:11 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:40 2005 Subject: OT: early rising (was: RE: Timonium Hamfest) Message-ID: <80256746.005AB891.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > What is it about hamfests that cause otherwise > sane individuals to get up at the crack of dawn? > > Almost every computer involved person I know who > has any control of their work schedule: > > 1) Gets up after the sun has properly warmed the earth > where they live > 2) Eats lunch for breakfast > 3) Eats dinner for lunch > 4) Has Chinese delivered at 1 a.m. for dinner > 5) Sleeps till 2 or 3 p.m. on Saturday if at all possible Like, I imagine, most people on this list, I do not regard myself as sane. That said, I think the morning is a sadly under-rated time of day. My alarm clock goes off at 6 am whether I need to go to work or not. I get up any time between 6.00 and 7.15 on work days, 6.00 and 8.00 on other days. It is not quite random - if I have been short of sleep lately, or am in the middle of a good book, I tend to get up later. And I find it quite hard to do anything remotely involving the brain after 10pm. Am I really that unusual? Philip. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 1 11:12:55 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Multi-User BASIC In-Reply-To: <004701be7c54$3c667fc0$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> Message-ID: > run? If so, what version? I currently have a fairly messed up, but > bootable version of OS/8 V3Q > on one RK05, but that's it, and no facilities as of yet to load a new > operating > system, but working on it. Gee, there are only a handful of sites out there will complete distributions for OS/8 (most versions). try www.dbit.com John Wilson has a lot there and also the old nickels site FTP as well. if that isn't enough... www.highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8 Allison From a2k at one.net Thu Apr 1 11:40:42 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Osborne PSU Message-ID: Hello, I recently aquired an Osbourne Model I luggable.. I have system disks for it and I can't wait to fire it up.. unfortunately it has a bad power switch (a little flaky; works occasionally, usually not), which is not big deal as I can change that out.. the problem is when I was working on the panel that has the wires attached (wrapped around those posts) I accidentally ripped them all off (grr).. does anyone have a pinout of which colored wires go to which pin? thanks, Kevin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After sifting through the overwritten remaining blocks of Luke's home directory, Luke and PDP-1 sped away from /u/lars, across the surface of the Winchester riding Luke's flying read/write head. PDP-1 had Luke stop at the edge of the cylinder overlooking /usr/spool/uucp. "Unix-to-Unix Copy Program;" said PDP-1. "You will never find a more wretched hive of bugs and flamers. We must be cautious." -- DECWARS ____________________________________________________________________ | Kevin Stewart | "I am a secret | | KC8BLL ----------| Wrapped in a mystery -Milford High School | | a2k@one.net | Wrapped in an enigma Drama Tech Dept. | |jlennon@nether.net| And drizzled in some tasty chocolate stuff.| -------------------------------------------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 1 11:45:48 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: What do you do with 256k Wang In-Reply-To: <002501be7be8$fee98ae0$57f6e9d0@mysystem.compuage.com> Message-ID: It would help if you would TURN OFF HTML!! On Wed, 31 Mar 1999, Fred & Lenny wrote: > Okay, I own a computer so of course to everyone who doesn't I'm = > some > kind of expert (not). > > So the other day this guy brings me this 256k Wang, wants me to = > set > it up for him. Set up to do what? Alright maybe I may have some old DOS > stuff a wordprocessor, spreadsheet, hell maybe I even got a pong game = > still > laying around. My problem is how do I write to this thing? By putting what you want to install onto diskettes. > Its got one of those old floppy drives with the lever and all (never > used them I was running a Mac before IBM saw the light). It would help if you identified the drive a little more narrowly than that it has a lever. The OLD drives usually didn't have a lever. A LOT happened before the Mac. > The hard drive = > is > from the stone age (is this SCSI compatible?) It would help if you identified the drive a little more narrowly than that it is older than you are accustomed to. > And the mother of all = > boards > with connections for a network possibly? Probably a mainframe Yuk. = It would help if you identified the connectors in more detail. > Anybody > ever own one of these things? Of course. > Can anything be salvaged? If you are willing to put some work into it. > Is this just an > overgrown typewriter? How am I going to write to this thing without > destroying my computer? What kind of damage are you anticipating to your computer? > Help Help Help... We'd be glad to. But you need to try to provide basic information. > Here's some numbers: cpu 256kb, It would help if you opened it and identified what kind of CPU it has. > two PMO30-b 128k Memory expansion, PMO08 = > c.g.I (monitor controller?), pm02/022-b Winchester controller, > Seagate HD, Seagate is a brand. If you'd like to know whether it is SCSI, etc., it would help to know WHICH model Seagate drive it is. > and of course the standard Wang kb and monitor (RGB I think they = > called them you know green just green). Everything works even has some = > old data base software still on it. Good. WHAT OS is it running? > FrednLenny@compuage.com From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Thu Apr 1 12:43:00 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: OT: early rising (was: RE: Timonium Hamfest) In-Reply-To: <80256746.005AB891.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Apr 1999 Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > > What is it about hamfests that cause otherwise > > sane individuals to get up at the crack of dawn? The hordes of gorgeous, single women... > And I find it quite hard to do anything remotely involving the brain after 10pm. Wait, that's got to be a typo...you meant *before* 10pm, right??? Aaron From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Apr 1 12:49:38 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Timonium Hamfest In-Reply-To: <000201be7c5a$b137fd50$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Ok... > > What is it about hamfests that cause otherwise > sane individuals to get up at the crack of dawn? You *GO* girlfriend!! > > Almost every computer involved person I know who > has any control of their work schedule: > > 1) Gets up after the sun has properly warmed the earth > where they live O yeah.... sing it! > 2) Eats lunch for breakfast That's the 4-1-1 > 3) Eats dinner for lunch Doesn't everyone? > 4) Has Chinese delivered at 1 a.m. for dinner Vegetarian South Indian Curry Pizza (alternate) > 5) Sleeps till 2 or 3 p.m. on Saturday if at all possible Perfect: one is awake in time for a proper lunch. I and some friends attempted to start up a TRW-type swap meet here in SoCal.. we were thwarted by the $1.5 million liability policies everyone wanted... but the prime criteria was: load-in at 11:00, meet starts at 12:00 and wraps at 5:30 or so..... alas it was not to be. Note to Philip Belben, re: early AM when one doesn't have to... SICK! SICK! SICK!!! :} This being said... my particular job situation requires my presence at about 7:30 am local... many times earlier... I really hate it but it pays the bills. Of course I get to stay most days till 9:00 or so pm... so that makes up for it. (huh?) And now back to your regular-topic List. Obclassiccmp: Anyone have a FSW Votrax (the commercial version) for sale or trade? I think on of my PDPs ought to be able to talk back at me... Cheerz John From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 1 12:52:43 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: telephone bandwidth (was Re: ASR-33 Data Format?) In-Reply-To: <199904011050.MAA11439@horus.mch.sni.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) References: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) <199904011050.MAA11439@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <19990401185243.10083.qmail@brouhaha.com> Hans wrote: > POTS is about analouge transmition, but the media isn't as clear as > you might think. Depending on the kind of connection, and the used the > bandwidth may reach up beyond 30 kHz, alowing rates of more than > 100 Kbps transmission - remember, POTS starts as direct coupled In the US, POTS service is bandlimited to roughly 300-3300 Hz. The local loop (between you and the CO) has more bandwidth, which is why it can (sometimes) be used for ISDN or DSL, but the switched voice network does not. The phone companies here have offered special leased lines with higher bandwidth that were used for such things as links between studios and broadcast facilities. But even though those were analog, they were (by definition) not POTS. Nowdays those facilities have largely been replaced by digital leased lines. I was of the impression that POTS in the rest of the world worked similarly, but I could easily be mistaken about that. > But in fact, this is all history, POTS no longer exists over here > since years. Really? You can't use cheap analog telephones any more? I knew ISDN was more widely deployed in some other countries than in the US, but I had no idea that it had completely displaced POTS. Even so, however, if you use an ISDN B channel for a voice bearer to carry alaw or mulaw audio samples, you still can't get more than 8000 baud through it in any particularly useful or effective manner. The actual baud rate of the raw ISDN BRI varies. In the US it uses 2B1Q signalling, with a rate of 80 Kbaud in each direction. Other countries use other signalling schemes, such as 4B3T. IIRC, Germany uses a different scheme than most of Europe. However, in most countries the telephone company provides the ISDN NT1, so the customer equipment is connected to the S/T interface, which is the same worldwide. Eric From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Apr 1 12:52:56 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: PDP 11/73 In-Reply-To: <199904011508.AA09486@world.std.com> from Megan at "Apr 1, 1999 10: 8:57 am" Message-ID: <199904011852.NAA05990@pechter.dyndns.org> > > It also has an RSX runtime system on it, but it asks for a > >user/password which of course I don't have. Anyone have any idea > >how to defeat this? > > RSX Runtime system? Under RT-11? Or on a separate disk? > Passwords on an RT system? Not normally... you may be running > some special software... RT11 with multi user and passwords. Hmm. Megan -- Sounds like a TSX-11 TSX Plus varient of some kind to me... Wonder if S&H has a way to get in. Bill From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 1 12:59:02 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: <199904011050.MAA11443@horus.mch.sni.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) References: <199903312150.AA03296@world.std.com> (mbg@world.std.com) <199904011050.MAA11443@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <19990401185902.10121.qmail@brouhaha.com> Hans wrote: > AFAIK the US ISDN uses only 56K chanels - or am I wrong ? No, both 56K and 64K ISDN B channels are available in most of the US. But we were talking about using a 56K voice-band modem (V.90, X2, or K56flex) on a POTS line. The server end uses ISDN. The data rate on the POTS line is limited to 53 Kbps by FCC regulations. The signalling on the POTS line is 8000 baud with up to 7 bits per symbol. At the server end, the data is still 8000 samples per second, of 7 bits each. However, those samples are presented digitally, so in some sense it could be considered to be 56000 baud at the server end *only*. On the other hand, to be decoded properly, the modulation technique is such that the integrity of the byte framing of the samples must be maintained, so effectively it really is still 8000 baud. > > Anyhow, this is OT for another 7 years or so. > > Depends on personal experiance - I got my hands on ISDN > equippment first in 1981, and used ISDN Parts for my own > design first in 1985 (to rebuild an /370 Mainframe into Yes, but the topic was 56K voice-band modems, which have not existed that long. Eric From jlwest at tseinc.com Thu Apr 1 13:01:25 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: PDP 11/73 Message-ID: <00f601be7c72$0a6d3e00$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> For TSX, just boot the system in RT11 without TSX. Then run the tsauth program and set any passwords you like. I'm not positive, but ISTR tsauth doesn't require a password to run it if you're not running TSX at the time. Jay West -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 01, 1999 12:58 PM Subject: Re: PDP 11/73 >> > It also has an RSX runtime system on it, but it asks for a >> >user/password which of course I don't have. Anyone have any idea >> >how to defeat this? >> >> RSX Runtime system? Under RT-11? Or on a separate disk? >> Passwords on an RT system? Not normally... you may be running >> some special software... > >RT11 with multi user and passwords. > >Hmm. Megan -- Sounds like a TSX-11 TSX Plus varient of some kind to me... >Wonder if S&H has a way to get in. > >Bill > From SGRIF at wxs.nl Thu Apr 1 14:05:53 1999 From: SGRIF at wxs.nl (Simon Griffioen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: old computer Message-ID: <3703C390.9E6EB9AB@wxs.nl> I have a old Pertec computer that still workes (after one hour of waiting time to get warm). It 's a PCC2000. I live in the Netherlands, but i do not know were to go to with this stuff. Could you help me. I got your addres from jimw@agora.rdrop.com. Thanks. From mbg at world.std.com Thu Apr 1 13:13:58 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: PDP 11/73 Message-ID: <199904011913.AA10419@world.std.com> >RT11 with multi user and passwords. > >Hmm. Megan -- Sounds like a TSX-11 TSX Plus varient of some kind to >me... Wonder if S&H has a way to get in. Keep in mind that even a TSX machine has to boot through RT-11 SJ... If the software is started as a result of a command in the STARTS.COM file, then it should be possible to ^C out of the command file and be left in RT-11 without accounts and passwords... Beyond that, I don't know how one might crack the account/password info on TSX... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 1 13:15:48 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: PDP 11/73 Message-ID: <990401141548.2160019a@trailing-edge.com> > Sounds like a TSX-11 TSX Plus varient of some kind to me... >Wonder if S&H has a way to get in. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Apr 1 13:22:19 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: OT: early rising (was: RE: Timonium Hamfest) In-Reply-To: References: <80256746.005AB891.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <4.1.19990401112117.00cee570@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> On Thu, 1 Apr 1999 Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > >> > What is it about hamfests that cause otherwise >> > sane individuals to get up at the crack of dawn? Who said we were getting up? Perhaps Hamfests start _just before bedtime_ :-) --Chuck From mbg at world.std.com Thu Apr 1 13:16:48 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: pdp-8 haul trip report Message-ID: <199904011916.AA12949@world.std.com> If anyone is interested in the story... try http://world.std.com/~mbg/move_report.html Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 1 13:28:31 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: PDP 11/73 Message-ID: <990401142831.2160019a@trailing-edge.com> >>Hmm. Megan -- Sounds like a TSX-11 TSX Plus varient of some kind to >>me... Wonder if S&H has a way to get in. >Keep in mind that even a TSX machine has to boot through RT-11 SJ... >If the software is started as a result of a command in the STARTS.COM >file, then it should be possible to ^C out of the command file and >be left in RT-11 without accounts and passwords... >Beyond that, I don't know how one might crack the account/password >info on TSX... The usernames/passwords/privs are stored in a file called ACCESS.TSX. The information is stored in a lightly encrypted form (no MD5 here) and is most conveniently accessed by running TSAUTH. Many system managers take the TSX+ manual's recommendation and remove TSAUTH.SAV from the system disk, keeping it on a floppy for when it is necessary. Tim. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 1 15:59:12 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Timonium Hamfest In-Reply-To: <000201be7c5a$b137fd50$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990401155912.3b6ff77c@intellistar.net> At 11:14 AM 4/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >Ok... > >What is it about hamfests that cause otherwise >sane individuals to get up at the crack of dawn? The bargains and finding stuff that hasn't seen the light of day in 20 years! It's that or pay E-bay prices to someone else that IS willing to do it. > >Almost every computer involved person I know who >has any control of their work schedule: > >1) Gets up after the sun has properly warmed the earth > where they live >2) Eats lunch for breakfast >3) Eats dinner for lunch >4) Has Chinese delivered at 1 a.m. for dinner >5) Sleeps till 2 or 3 p.m. on Saturday if at all possible > Well I obviously don't have control of my work schedule! :-/ Joe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 1 16:03:56 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: telephone bandwidth (was Re: ASR-33 Data Format?) In-Reply-To: <19990401185243.10083.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199904011050.MAA11439@horus.mch.sni.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) Message-ID: <199904012004.WAA20271@horus.mch.sni.de> > > POTS is about analouge transmition, but the media isn't as clear as > > you might think. Depending on the kind of connection, and the used the > > bandwidth may reach up beyond 30 kHz, alowing rates of more than > > 100 Kbps transmission - remember, POTS starts as direct coupled > In the US, POTS service is bandlimited to roughly 300-3300 Hz. AFAIR over here it's 300-3000 Hz (to fit within a 3000 Hz chanel when multiplexed, together with a 200 Hz signaling chanel) > The > local loop (between you and the CO) has more bandwidth, which is why > it can (sometimes) be used for ISDN or DSL, but the switched voice > network does not. I tried to bring in _real_ old switches :) > I was of the impression that POTS in the rest of the world worked > similarly, but I could easily be mistaken about that. If you take POTS just as the minimum standard as suportet (almost) everywhere, you're right, but thruout the years there have been several diferent technologies used and it was (before the network was completly digitalised) possible to find different situations if you tried things outside the guaranteed bandwidth. (And sometimes you even had lines where not even the guaranteed signaling was possible.) > > But in fact, this is all history, POTS no longer exists over here > > since years. > Really? You can't use cheap analog telephones any more? I knew ISDN > was more widely deployed in some other countries than in the US, but I > had no idea that it had completely displaced POTS. Shure, you can still get an analouge line, but this is only analogue until the next switch - sometimes they even insall an ISDN-NT in your basement with an integrated a/b adaptor to fullfill the request. The last (partly) analouge switch has been abdoned here in Germany some two years ago. The situation varies within Europe, Germany just jumped first on the ISDN trail. > Even so, however, if you use an ISDN B channel for a voice bearer to carry > alaw or mulaw audio samples, you still can't get more than 8000 baud through > it in any particularly useful or effective manner. Speaking of chanels - there is also a neat offering for the D channel: A permenent X25 connection with no time based payment. Neat if you got low data rates but round the clock availability (up to 9600 bps). > The actual baud rate of the raw ISDN BRI varies. In the US it uses 2B1Q > signalling, with a rate of 80 Kbaud in each direction. Other countries > use other signalling schemes, such as 4B3T. IIRC, Germany uses a different > scheme than most of Europe. However, in most countries the telephone > company provides the ISDN NT1, so the customer equipment is connected to > the S/T interface, which is the same worldwide. Within the system even in Germany there are different signalings, but thats without any influence, thanks to the NT - but even here Germany had it's own protocoll (1TR6) - thats the curse of beeing early. But nowadays 1TR6 is only available on special request for compatibility issues (Sad, since it had some realy neat features). Gruss H. ObCC: Has anyone an issue of Captain Zilog for sale (or is willing to provide a colour copy) ? -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 1 14:05:00 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Vector Graphic range... In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Mar 31, 99 03:34:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 444 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990401/60f510e5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 1 14:27:09 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) In-Reply-To: <003301be7be5$1f006780$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 31, 99 07:12:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3629 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990401/d4fe06eb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 1 14:31:57 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) In-Reply-To: <003801be7be5$eb167f80$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 31, 99 07:18:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1032 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990401/f619e49a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 1 14:41:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Classic color video In-Reply-To: <199904010249.SAA08507@mxu2.u.washington.edu> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Mar 31, 99 09:50:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1824 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990401/a9ca37b0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 1 14:44:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Classic color video In-Reply-To: from "LordTyran" at Mar 31, 99 10:32:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 847 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990401/4cf0655d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 1 14:55:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A rebuild project Was: Re: Post-move diary In-Reply-To: <199904011447.AA18740@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Apr 1, 99 09:47:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2013 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990401/266b40cc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 1 14:57:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: OT: early rising (was: RE: Timonium Hamfest) In-Reply-To: <80256746.005AB891.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Apr 1, 99 05:23:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1255 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990401/d712cc83/attachment.ksh From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Apr 1 15:43:05 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Classic color video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Athough I used my OSI with a cheap television with a tap at the video input I found the best most crisp display was on a tiny 9" Panasasonic video monitor... Most of the sharpness was due to the smaller display but it sure looked good at the time. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > 75 (ohm)... > > > > I believe that's just an attenation control; puts a 75 ohm resistor before > > the monitor.. Like the Pad control on a sound mixer I think, just brings > > the level down to avoid damaging things... or something ;P > > Not really. It's the termination switch. It connects a 75 Ohm resistor > across the video input socket (from the signal to ground if you like) to > terminate the video input cable (like terminating a SCSI bus, basically). > > In theory, the video output on the computer should be designed to drive a > 75 Ohm load. You then terminate the last (or only) monitor. If you don't, > you might get reflections on the cable and ghosting on the picture. > > But it appears that OSI products are designed to drive a high-impedance > monitor only. I guess on short video cables you still get a reasonable > picture. > > -tony > > From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Apr 1 16:04:05 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: OT: early rising (was: RE: Timonium Hamfest) In-Reply-To: <80256746.005AB891.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <4.1.19990401170055.00a09ee0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 05:23 PM 4/1/99 +0100, Philip.Belben@pgen.com said something like: > > >> What is it about hamfests that cause otherwise >> sane individuals to get up at the crack of dawn? >> >> Almost every computer involved person I know who >> has any control of their work schedule: >> >> 1) Gets up after the sun has properly warmed the earth >> where they live >> 2) Eats lunch for breakfast >> 3) Eats dinner for lunch >> 4) Has Chinese delivered at 1 a.m. for dinner >> 5) Sleeps till 2 or 3 p.m. on Saturday if at all possible > > >Like, I imagine, most people on this list, I do not regard myself as sane. > >That said, I think the morning is a sadly under-rated time of day. My alarm >clock goes off at 6 am whether I need to go to work or not. I get up any time >between 6.00 and 7.15 on work days, 6.00 and 8.00 on other days. It is not >quite random - if I have been short of sleep lately, or am in the middle of a >good book, I tend to get up later. > >And I find it quite hard to do anything remotely involving the brain after >10pm. > >Am I really that unusual? No, my sked is the same. However, my brain locks up around 9PM. My wife, however, gets up at 04:30 and is out the door to work at 05:25. Wish there were more hours in a day and my body would last longer in a day :-/ Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From at258 at osfn.org Thu Apr 1 16:13:36 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: OT: early rising (was: RE: Timonium Hamfest) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > Like, I imagine, most people on this list, I do not regard myself as sane. > > I know I'm not sane... I don't even pretend to be... M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 1 17:01:02 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: telephone bandwidth (was Re: ASR-33 Data Format?) In-Reply-To: <199904012004.WAA20271@horus.mch.sni.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) References: <199904011050.MAA11439@horus.mch.sni.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) <199904012004.WAA20271@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <19990401230102.11717.qmail@brouhaha.com> Hans wrote: > Shure, you can still get an analouge line, but this is only analogue > until the next switch - sometimes they even insall an ISDN-NT in your > basement with an integrated a/b adaptor to fullfill the request. Well, they do that here also. But the point is that the service that they are selling to the customer is still POTS. The fact that the line goes digital somewhere inside the "network cloud" is irrelevant. If you want to send modem signals through it, they get bandlimited to 300-3300 Hz. > But > nowadays 1TR6 is only available on special request for compatibility > issues (Sad, since it had some realy neat features). Yes, we have the same problem here with AT&T 5ESS Custom, which was much nicer than Bellcore National ISDN 1 (NI1). From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 1 17:03:19 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Real Hackers, tools of the trade (was Re: Vector Graphic range...) In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990401230319.11745.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > Real hackers carry a Leatherman if 'there just might be something > interesting' and a 99MP kit + LogicDart if they know there are machines > up for grabs :-). I guess I'm not a real hacker yet, since I don't even know what a 99MP kit is. But I do carry the other items. I hope HP introduces an improved LogicDart II soon. I've sent Eric Vogel a wish list. My number one request: transitional timing. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 1 17:11:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Real Hackers, tools of the trade (was Re: Vector Graphic range...) In-Reply-To: <19990401230319.11745.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 1, 99 11:03:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 856 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990402/9ee5ccd6/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 1 17:24:24 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Real Hackers, tools of the trade (was Re: Vector Graphic range...) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 2, 99 00:11:16 am Message-ID: <199904012324.PAA22644@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 590 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990401/1785c1e1/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Apr 1 17:24:00 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: New uses for old toys! Message-ID: <13440116327.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> My boss has come up with a good use for all my old toys! We're an ISP here, and I play BOFH. So, we're moving to a new building, and all the customers are wanting to see our internet toys when they sign up. So, the new machine room is being constructed as follows: 1. It'a a large room, raised flooring, and it has an observation window. The idiots can look thru the window, but not come in the door. 2. The room is also decently air-conditioned. It'll (obviously!) have fast 'net access. Meaning: 3. We aim to get our hands on all the boxes we can with flashing lights or interesting buttons on the panels. These will be visible from the window. All the real gear will be on the other side of the room. Basically, this means all my boxen get a fast 'net wire, and a nice room to live in. All they need to be able to do is look complicated and/or impressive. Is this sort of thing legal? Sounds too good to be true to me... ------- From max82 at surfree.com Thu Apr 1 17:57:39 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Real Hackers, tools of the trade (was Re: Vector Graphic range...) In-Reply-To: <199904012324.PAA22644@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: >An expensive set, but WELL worth the money! Of course my set is actually >made up of two or three smaller sets. Xcellite are tops in my book! Of >course I'd rather have the set the size of a small suitcase! Found in the Linux fortune file: Now, you might ask, "How do I get one of those complete home tool sets for under $4?" An excellent question. Go to one of those really cheap discount stores where they sell plastic furniture in colors visible from the planet Neptune and where they have a food section specializing in cardboard cartons full of Raisinets and malted milk balls manufactured during the Nixon administration. In either the hardware or housewares department, you'll find an item imported from an obscure Oriental country and described as "Nine Tools in One", consisting of a little handle with interchangeable ends representing inscrutable Oriental notions of tools that Americans might use around the home. Buy it. This is the kind of tool set professionals use. Not only is it inexpensive, but it also has a great safety feature not found in the so-called quality tools sets: The handle will actually break right off if you accidentally hit yourself or anything else, or expose it to direct sunlight. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 1 18:19:41 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) Message-ID: <001001be7c9e$9017abe0$0100c0a8@fuj03> YES! Finally, a point of agreement! One of the S-100 boards I'm looking to place has a component suspended in space above the board, and, in fact floating aboug an inch above one of the regulators. This was undoubtedly built by one of the self-styled experts I had working on automation software back in the early '80's. These guys had me buy all kinds of stuff we ended up not using and they excused the occasional waste by saying they bought a kit in order to save money. Of course they didn't consider that the cost of building it was a cost to me as well. I rather suspect that, in spite of the strange insertion of this floating component, the board worked. On the other hand, I had an expert prototype a low-current highly noise-immune PLL, for use in data/clock separation in hard disk drive interfaces, which was constructed as you describe, with a piece of copper-clad, double-sided, with the upper layer at Vcc and the lower at Vss. It had wires tacked to other wires and suspended inches above the board, while the components were soldered to pads cut from the solid plane, with machined pins soldered through the board and the IC's plugged in belly-up and wires soldered to their pins. It looked pretty tentative, but worked very well. It extracted clock with lock in about 5-6 microseconds all the time! My target was 10 microseconds. What's more, it required only a single supply. Tentative though it was, it had an order to it that you don't easily overlook. About the simulators . . . I've found that fewer and fewer of my clients blindly, and it is blind, believe me, accept a "rock solid" prototype, until after a simulation reveals that it not only does work, but, rationally, should work. The simulator rules out easily overlooked synergies between miscalculations. These are immediately revealed in a simulator when you run sensitivity analyses and worst-case analyses. If the circuit is misdesigned, it often works well at one of the extremes, but doesn't work at nominal spec. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 01, 1999 2:32 PM Subject: Re: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) >> >> senior engineers. The excuse was that "it's not a deliverable," but >> often >> >> the shoddy technique (air-wires, etc) made for problems which couldn't >> > >> >If that's another name for dead-bugging, there's nothing wrong with it if >> >used correctly. In fact IMHO it's the _only_ way to prototype >> >high-frequency circuits with any sort of reliability >> >> >> I have used dead-bug patches quite a few times myself. More specifically, >> dead-bugging is typically gluing or taping an IC onto another's back and >> running wires between it and the appropriate points in the circuit. I don't >> mean that, so much, but using multiple feet of #40 magnet wire with the >> shellac sanded or scraped off and having the scabbed-in IC floating on a web >> of wires 3" above the board . . . ??? > >Oh well, now that I would object to, even on a prototype. When I >dead-bug, all the large compoents (chips, etc) are fixed to the >groundplane (often a piece of copper-clad board). And the ground >connections are made with short pieces of 22swg-ish wire, soldered firmly >(they'd normally support the components even if they weren't stuck down). > >Of course, one other thing is that my circuits have generally been >intended to be used by myself, or perhaps somebody else who can read a >schematic only. I don't give them to unsuspecting 'customers' in that >state. Even so, my prototypes are solidly constructed. > >> >> >And if you trust simulations to correclty predict the behaviour of even >> >simple circuits, well, have I got some storys to tell you... >> > >> Yes, I have a few, too, but . . . Careful now . . . I've spend thousands of >> hours in front of a big tube waiting for a simulation. I am a big believer, >> and believe further, that anyone who claims that simulators don't have a >> place, as some old-timers do, just hasn't investigated sufficiently. > >This list is based on the principle that a new idea/method isn't necessarily >better than the old method. It might be, of course. And that sums up my views >on simulators. > >Oh, simulations have a place, that much is certain. They are very useful >tools if used correctly. > >What I object to in particular is : > >a) Designers who couldn't prototype the circuit if they tried >b) Designers who trust the simulator implicitly (even if the simulator >has no bugs, which is by no means certain, they might not have given it >all the right information) >c) Circuits that are 'delivered' after only having been tested on a >simulator. IMHO the real test of a circuit is does it work when constructed. >d) Simulators that take longer to provide less information that actually >building the circuit >e) Simulators that can't handle some common occurances (one classic FPGA >simulator can't handle external memory linked to the pins on the FPGA, >for example). >f) Designers who fiddle with the simulation 'until it works' rather than >using good solid design principles. Yes, fiddling with real hardware >'until it works' is equally bad, but I've found that because it's easier >to make changes on the simulator than on real hardware, the use of >simulators encourages that behaviour. >g) Simulators that plain get it wrong. Don't get me started here, suffice >it to say that I've spent too long tracking down glitches in other >peoples designs that the simulator claimed didn't exist. > >In short, in the hands of a good designer, a simulator is another useful >tool to be used alongside all the other tools. In the hands of a bad >designer, it generally leads to disaster. But alas Management often >believe the ads that say that %simulation-program allows anybody to do >design. > >-tony > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 1 18:28:48 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Classic color video Message-ID: <199904020028.AA27999@world.std.com> Nope, most of the time I know what's inside ;-)... This was a rare occasion where I got two of them plus a set of external drives, one with two 5 1/4 the other with a hard drive and a 5 1/4, a humongous daisywheel printer and a complete set of software and documentation for $20. "Do you look at the teeth of a free (or almost) horse?" I just got sidetracked in figuring out what the beast was. I'll have to check it out now. Francois >Don't you guys open your boxes to see what's inside them when you first >get them? > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 1 18:33:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Real Hackers, tools of the trade (was Re: Vector Graphic range...) In-Reply-To: <199904012324.PAA22644@shell2.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 1, 99 03:24:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1056 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990402/c468e2a1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 1 18:36:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Real Hackers, tools of the trade (was Re: Vector Graphic range...) In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 1, 99 06:57:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 702 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990402/1a7c04ee/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 1 18:50:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) In-Reply-To: <001001be7c9e$9017abe0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 1, 99 05:19:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3126 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990402/dbdc32f2/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 1 19:00:10 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Real Hackers, tools of the trade (was Re: Vector Graphic range...) Message-ID: <990401200010.21600239@trailing-edge.com> >> > Real hackers carry a Leatherman if 'there just might be something >> > interesting' and a 99MP kit + LogicDart if they know there are machines >> > up for grabs :-). >> >> I guess I'm not a real hacker yet, since I don't even know what a 99MP kit >> is. But I do carry the other items. >It's that red tool roll from Xcellite that DEC field servoids also carry. >It contains Phillips, flatblade, Allen hex, nutdrivers and Bristol spline >drivers. I added Pozidriv blades to mine (essential if working on >European machines). I understand the attraction of those Xcellite sets, especially for field service work where the total weight is a major concern. But they're among the worst "feeling" screwdrivers I've ever used; no matter how I hold them they feel like cheap pieces of junk, and they're always just the wrong size for my hands. Tim. From mbg at world.std.com Thu Apr 1 19:08:53 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: DECtapeII drives available - contact the person in the post, not me Message-ID: <199904020108.AA24114@world.std.com> >Xref: world alt.sys.pdp11:6181 >Path: world!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.he.net!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!news.remarQ.com!not-for-mail >From: "William B. (Bill, Mr. Bill, etc.) Benshoof, II" >Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 >Subject: DECTAPE II Available >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 08:14:49 -0600 >Organization: M. R. Ducks Productions >Lines: 11 >Message-ID: <37037F59.38E2@edge.net> >Reply-To: mrbill@edge.net >NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.215.156.33 >NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 14:09:59 GMT >X-Trace: 922975799.179.17 MPP1WEAUI9C21D1D7C usenet1.supernews.com >X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Y'all, I have 8 DECTAPE II tape drives (guts only, no case) available. Anyone Interested? I'm not a regular subscriber, so E-mail me at mrbill@edge.net. Peace, Bill Benshoof From gram at cnct.com Thu Apr 1 19:27:02 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <199904020028.AA28117@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > FYI, Murph the NS* horizon turned 21 this year. It's NS* box, and cpu(@ > 8mhz), compupro ram, my 765 based floppy and a Teltek MFM controller. Pour him a beer. Of course when he was born the legal age in Taxachusetts was 18. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 1 19:33:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Real Hackers, tools of the trade (was Re: Vector Graphic range...) In-Reply-To: <990401200010.21600239@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Apr 1, 99 08:00:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 776 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990402/c3bf2c11/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 1 20:00:01 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <001d01be7cac$99a1f5e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> I doubt that any of the old stuff I have, much of which, incidentally is older than the 21-year-old to which you referred, will run at that 10MHz rate, though I once used an ordinary Z-80A at 12 MHz with a BUNCH of 2147's (that's power-hungry, basement-heating, fast, static RAM). Unfortunately, almost no peripherals would talk to it without half a dozen or so wait-states. That was in a hand-wired application and not in an S-100, where, although you can interface the processor, RAM, and ROM with just a gate or two, the bus interface takes about a hundred. (not really, but quite a few!) If I go the route of hand-wiring something for the S-100, I'll probably use one of the WD1002-series bridge controllers I still have lying about. I once lived for about three years on my earnings from that little daughterboard I made which had the Z-80 and a few (4) TTL MSI and SSI parts on it. It provided an interface to a WD-100x-series HDC or HDC/FDC. That way I don't have to go blind wiring all the parts. At my age, that's a serious consideration. First, though, I'll have to fire up that big, old, chassis with the 8" HDD in it, since, though I had several and have bought several cases of beer with the $$$ I got for the bunches of high-quality scrap aluminum they yielded, I've never actually made one of the old SHUGART 1004's work. It always seemed appealing, since it had exactly 256 cylinders, and if you use 32-byte sectors, they also have exactly 256 bytes. It seems made for the Z-80's OTIR and INIR instructions . . . it's just that the 5.25" drives, for which I was designing controllers at the time, and which had to be bought at the time anyway, were so much easier to interface with the S-100 controllers I already had. (I stole from everyone, an equal opportunity reverse-engineer . . . ) It's spent a couple of winters outdoors now, and I wonder if the fans will even work. I do recall, you couldn't hear the HDD above the fans. About ten years ago, Someone gave me several of the XCOMP STS board pairs, but tuned for 8" rather than 5.25" drives' data rate. I imagine they spent a lot of time in someone's desk drawer, in order to keep the boss from learning he'd paid for yet another item they couldn't use. Those might be interesting to try out. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 01, 1999 5:36 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI > >I say go for it. > >FYI, Murph the NS* horizon turned 21 this year. It's NS* box, and cpu(@ >8mhz), compupro ram, my 765 based floppy and a Teltek MFM controller. > >I also have a compupro with 512k of static runnign at 6mhz. > >the killer system however is using a 84c050 z80/10mhz, MMU with 512k static >ram (no waits) smart floppy and smart HDC. The floppy and hdc system are >8085 powered and have their own DMA (Ieee696 TMA) interfaces. I started >that system back in 81 and for years it was the PC killer. > >Allison > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 1 20:07:30 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: New uses for old toys! In-Reply-To: <13440116327.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: >3. We aim to get our hands on all the boxes we can with flashing lights > or interesting buttons on the panels. These will be visible from > the window. All the real gear will be on the other side of the room. Lucky Bum! I'd recommend finding a couple nice PDP-11/70 systems. Your /44 isn't that impressive looking. On the other hand has your boss thought about how much electricity this will take? Why are you asking if it's legal though?!? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 1 20:17:12 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:41 2005 Subject: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) Message-ID: <199904020217.AA07077@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Tony wrote: > > > Real hackers carry a Leatherman if 'there just might be something > > > interesting' and a 99MP kit + LogicDart if they know there are machines > > > up for grabs :-). > > > > I guess I'm not a real hacker yet, since I don't even know what a 99MP kit > > is. But I do carry the other items. > > It's that red tool roll from Xcellite that DEC field servoids also carry. > It contains Phillips, flatblade, Allen hex, nutdrivers and Bristol spline > drivers. I added Pozidriv blades to mine (essential if working on > European machines). No Torx? - don > You can dismantle just about any computer case/chassis with it. > > > > > I hope HP introduces an improved LogicDart II soon. I've sent Eric Vogel > > a wish list. My number one request: transitional timing. > > Don't tell me my LogicDart is already out of date. I've only had it just > over 1 year ;-) > > > > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 1 20:35:58 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) Message-ID: <001401be7cb1$8ab313c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> This strategy is pretty popular with analog work being tried for the first time. I prefer to wire-wrap my digital stuff, and I've shown that wire-wrap between digital and analog circuitry can be mde to work as well. I prefer my prototypes to be really rugged unless there's a specific reason why one can't be, and I'm always afraid to play with those "spiderweb-technology" circuits, so once built, they never get any improvement from me. Now, I've learned a few tricks from those analog weenies who use this kind of stuff all the time. I'll certainly never forget watching one guy track down a 4MHz clock from a processor getting into the analog section of his circuit by using a divider with points sharp enough to penetrate the solder mask and a spectrum analyzer. He found the section of ground plane which needed bypass, then fixed it with a couple of capacitors bypassing the unwanted signal to just the right place. No mean trick if you ask me. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 01, 1999 7:24 PM Subject: Re: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) > >That happens to be an effective way to do it. Works well for RF too. > >As to proto, I have a few peices of equipment that were deliberately built >that way with over 15 years on them. With a little care it can be very >rugged. > >Allison > From a2k at one.net Thu Apr 1 20:38:28 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Classic color video In-Reply-To: <199904020028.AA27999@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > < > > No! It's for those system that use terminated cables rather than random > impedences. For long cables they should be matches at each end to the > nominal impedence of the cable and the swich turns on the resistor that does > that. Just like the loads used for thin eithernet(or thick). > > Allison > Ok, ok, I stick my tail between my legs and run and hide in the corner. Sorry! Kevin From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 1 20:39:23 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <199904020239.AA22836@world.std.com> Doesn't someone already have a "classic computer rescuers list" on their web site? I think that it's divided up by state. I can put a name/address page on my site -- just give me the info! [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 1 21:09:00 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Reply to original sender Message-ID: I told him I'd pass this on to the list, so contact him, not me. Zane >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 15:23:32 -0500 >To: "Zane H. Healy" >From: Don Gray >I looked at your web site (computer side), it's very nice. I do have some >other older computer stuff that I was going to eventually e-bay, but would >just sell if you know anyone who might be able to use it. >- at&t unix computer circa 1982 (i think it is a 3b2 or something [at work >so cant check now]) this is a largish desktop cpu and I have about a >4-foot stack of manuals and 5.25 disks for the unix and utilities. [I just >got this last week and haven't tried it out yet] I don't have a monitor or >keyboard, but it does have docs for a 5260(i think) dot-mapped display >(dmp). Also have a bunch of cabling for this. >- microvax 2000 with tk-50 drive and a bunch of tk-50 tapes, including vms >[also haven't had time to fire this up yet] > >Also, is there a usenet group or a web-site that deals with buy/sell/trade >of this kind of "obsolete" equipment? | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 1 22:29:45 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation Message-ID: I got the Base Set of OpenVMS 7.2 doc's that I ordered today. How disgusting! On the spine, it says "Compaq OpenVMS", and the spines are ALL white, so they aren't colour coded by type. Oddly two of them are the old Digital manuals from the 7.1 release. I don't mind the "Compaq" where the "digital" used to be, it's the "Compaq OpenVMS" I find sick! How egotistical! Oh, well, I've got doc's that match the version I'm running now at least (though the V5 "System Managers Manual" will continue to be the most used manual). Now if the two Cluster manuals that I ordered at the same time would ship, I'd be almost happy. Still need up-to-date DECnet manuals though. Zane (Axiously waiting for the V2 Hobbyist CD's to be ready) | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 1 22:33:07 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: LT33? Message-ID: I'm looking at the required hardware listed on a SPD I got today, and it lists a "LT33 terminal with low speed paper tape reader". Is that the same thing as a ASR33? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From gram at cnct.com Thu Apr 1 23:35:45 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I don't mind the "Compaq" where the "digital" used to be, it's the "Compaq > OpenVMS" I find sick! How egotistical! Well, they paid for the wedding, they get to eat the cake. Farzino, just about everything OpenVMS runs on Linux runs on. (I doubt we'll see manuals labeled "Compaq RT-11" or Compaq VMS"). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 1 23:59:52 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation (OT) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Farzino, just about everything OpenVMS runs on Linux runs on. (I doubt I've been a big Linux fan since January '92, but I fail to understand why anyone would want to run Linux on a system that will run OpenVMS. Besides, I found OpenBSD to work better with the AlphaStation 200 I've got acting as a firewall than Linux. On the otherhand I might consider a dual boot setup, but I doubt it, I prefer to run Linux on Intel. >we'll see manuals labeled "Compaq RT-11" or Compaq VMS"). I doubt the RT-11 also, but what is the difference between "Compaq VMS" and "Compaq OpenVMS"? Wierder is the fact that the red Compaq where the digital used to be is the same font as the OpenVMS, but the Compaq in the "Compaq OpenVMS" are two different fonts. What can I say, it offends my sensibilities :^) Seriously, what I don't like is the lack of colour coding that the 6.2 manuals I've got have on thier spines. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Fri Apr 2 01:17:56 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Collectors list Message-ID: <199904020717.CAA04100@platy.cs.unc.edu> I guess I'm not advertising enough! Would anybody object if I posted this announcement periodically, like maybe once every two weeks, or once per month? The "Classic Computer Rescue Squad" web page lists people's location, classic computer interests, and contact info. If you aren't on it, you are missing out. And if you want to find nearby classic computer geeks, this is the obvious spot for one-stop-shopping. E-mail addresses on it are mangled to make it more difficult for spammers (though I have an idea for a better anti-spam measure), and pretty much all the decisions about what info to list are made by the Rescue Squad volunteers themselves. I've even been pretty good about maintaining it. Requests usually get handled in less than 24 hours. Here's the URL: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/ccrs_list.html Be there, or be a rectangle in which each side is one fourth of the total perimiter. Bill. On Wed, 31 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: ] ] On Wed, 31 Mar 1999, Jerome Fine wrote: ] > So, if you are willing to give your zip/postal code, in effect that is ... deletia ... ] ] I think the rescue list on Bill Yakowenko's site (don't have the URL ] handy) can serve the purpose of knowing where generally other fellow ] collectors are located. Aside from privacy concerns, its a swell idea. ] But I guess it would be on a voluntary basis. ] ... more ... From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Fri Apr 2 01:27:20 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: off-the-wall question (possibly OT) Message-ID: <199904020727.CAA04132@platy.cs.unc.edu> Has anybody here ever heard a relay machine running, like one of the early Zuse machines or the Harvard Mark-1? It occurred to me (please don't ridicule me too much for this*) that the sound of the robot in the old "Lost in Space" TV series may have been intended to sound like a relay machine. I've heard descriptions of them sounding like a thousand women knitting, which could sort-of describe that robot sound-effect as well... Cheers, Bill. * I guess you should ridicule me just the right amount. :-) From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 2 02:38:28 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: LT33? In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: Message-ID: <19990402083828.13992.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I'm looking at the required hardware listed on a SPD I got today, and it > lists a "LT33 terminal with low speed paper tape reader". Is that the same > thing as a ASR33? Yes. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 2 02:37:57 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Timonium Hamfest In-Reply-To: <000201be7c5a$b137fd50$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > What is it about hamfests that cause otherwise > sane individuals to get up at the crack of dawn? The fact that if you don't some other insane geek will, and will properly scoop up all the good stuff before you've even completed your morning pee. > Almost every computer involved person I know who > has any control of their work schedule: > > 1) Gets up after the sun has properly warmed the earth > where they live 1.5) Pees. > 2) Eats lunch for breakfast > 3) Eats dinner for lunch > 4) Has Chinese delivered at 1 a.m. for dinner > 5) Sleeps till 2 or 3 p.m. on Saturday if at all possible Sure, but the Saturday and Sunday hamfests are an exception to that otherwise cozy schedule. And I haven't slept in til 2 or 3pm on a Saturday in years. Those were the good old days. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 2 02:40:00 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Terak software In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990401093610.0111e9d0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, John Foust wrote: > port, where I capture it using the venerable Pro-YAM telecom package. > (Now there's a guy who belongs on this list .) Ah, Chuck Forsberg, a.k.a. TeleGodzilla? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 2 02:50:30 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Timonium Hamfest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, John Lawson wrote: > I and some friends attempted to start up a TRW-type swap meet here > in SoCal.. we were thwarted by the $1.5 million liability policies That's hardly as daunting as it sounds. My two day $1mil general liability policy for the VCF runs around $300. A full year would only be a grand or so. This would be covered in the first two-four meets by seller fees, depending on how much you charged. > everyone wanted... but the prime criteria was: load-in at 11:00, > meet starts at 12:00 and wraps at 5:30 or so..... alas it was not > to be. There's just something about having to get up at an insanely early hour (for a weekend) to beat everyone else that has a certain charm to it. A 12:00pm starting time cuts into the rest of the day. I'd want it to start at 8am. Enough time for sleep if you stayed up late the night before (like I always manage to do despite my best efforts) and early enough that once you're down scrounging you've still got the rest of the day to play with what you found. > Note to Philip Belben, re: early AM when one doesn't have to... > > SICK! SICK! SICK!!! :} You'd be amazed at just how much you can accomplish before 9am if you get up by 7am. Really! Try it sometime. > This being said... my particular job situation requires my presence > at about 7:30 am local... many times earlier... I really hate it > but it pays the bills. Of course I get to stay most days till 9:00 > or so pm... so that makes up for it. (huh?) Mandatory early morning work hours suck hardcore. I never came in before 9am unless I absolutely had to. If I'm going to work until 7, 8, or even 9pm then I'll damn well come in when my body feels like its had enough sleep. > Obclassiccmp: Anyone have a FSW Votrax (the commercial version) > for sale or trade? I think on of my PDPs ought to be able to talk > back at me... Speaking of which (sort of) there was a voicemail system from the 70s (forgot which one, VMX maybe?) that was based on a PDP-8 with proprietary voice processing cards for the telecom interface (Omnibus I suppose, or Unibus?) Just something else to look for when you're out and about scrounging. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From mbg at world.std.com Fri Apr 2 06:56:08 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation Message-ID: <199904021256.AA17014@world.std.com> >I don't mind the "Compaq" where the "digital" used to be, it's the >"Compaq OpenVMS" I find sick! How egotistical! What about DECUS?... I received my booklet announcing the next DECUS, and it says 'DECUS, A Compaq Users Group'. ugh. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Fri Apr 2 06:58:09 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation Message-ID: <199904021258.AA18024@world.std.com> >Farzino, just about everything OpenVMS runs on Linux runs on. (I doubt >we'll see manuals labeled "Compaq RT-11" or Compaq VMS"). As for RT-11, you're right... because it is handled by Mentec now. But for VMS... don't be so sure... At work yesterday I saw a box of VMS manuals which was being distributed to the VMS support group... they clearly had "Compaq OpenVMS" on them... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From fauradon at pclink.com Fri Apr 2 07:04:57 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: off-the-wall question (possibly OT) Message-ID: <000601be7d09$690893a0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> I thought the Robot sounded more like "Danger Will Robinson" or something like that. >Has anybody here ever heard a relay machine running, like one >of the early Zuse machines or the Harvard Mark-1? It occurred >to me (please don't ridicule me too much for this*) that the >sound of the robot in the old "Lost in Space" TV series may >have been intended to sound like a relay machine. I've heard >descriptions of them sounding like a thousand women knitting, >which could sort-of describe that robot sound-effect as well... > > Cheers, > Bill. > >* I guess you should ridicule me just the right amount. :-) > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Apr 2 07:32:03 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Sic Transit Gloria Mundi In-Reply-To: <199904021256.AA17014@world.std.com> from Megan at "Apr 2, 1999 7:56: 8 am" Message-ID: <199904021332.IAA07807@pechter.dyndns.org> > > >I don't mind the "Compaq" where the "digital" used to be, it's the > >"Compaq OpenVMS" I find sick! How egotistical! > > What about DECUS?... I received my booklet announcing the next DECUS, > and it says 'DECUS, A Compaq Users Group'. > > ugh. > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > Perhaps they'll forget to (or make a corporate decision not to) renew dec.com and I'll grab the domain. (I probably shouldn't have said this since there'll now be a few others on the list watching for it... 8-( ) Bill From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Apr 2 08:12:55 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation Message-ID: <990402091255.21600265@trailing-edge.com> >I got the Base Set of OpenVMS 7.2 doc's that I ordered today. How >disgusting! On the spine, it says "Compaq OpenVMS", and the spines are ALL >white, so they aren't colour coded by type. The "traditional" DEC way of dealing with this is to have pockets on all the spines and put cardboard identifiers in each one indicating which volume it is. If you go to a well-stocked office supply store, you'll find similar sized pockets that are self adhesive and which you can stick to the spines of your new manuals, and them label everything appropriately. All the way back to white, eh? My old TOPS-20 manual set (from mid-to- late-70's) is in white binders... >I don't mind the "Compaq" where the "digital" used to be, it's the "Compaq >OpenVMS" I find sick! How egotistical! Within a day or two of the announced merger, all the faxes I got from DEC began reading "Compaq" at the top! >Oh, well, I've got doc's that match the version I'm running now at least >(though the V5 "System Managers Manual" will continue to be the most used >manual). Now if the two Cluster manuals that I ordered at the same time >would ship, I'd be almost happy. Still need up-to-date DECnet manuals >though. Incidentally, there are several places on the net where the OpenVMS documentation is browsable. For starters, you can go to http://www.openvms.digital.com/ and click on "Documentation". It looks like the Cluster manuals and DECnet manuals are there. Of course, electronic docs are not nearly as satisfying as a "grey wall" (or, as it seems to be now, white), but it can come in handy in a pinch. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Apr 2 08:22:44 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation (OT) Message-ID: <990402092244.21600265@trailing-edge.com> >>we'll see manuals labeled "Compaq RT-11" or Compaq VMS"). >I doubt the RT-11 also The RT-11 5.7 SPD has been out for over half a year now, and begins: * COMPAQ * *Software *Product *Description * *___________________________________________________________________ * *PRODUCT NAME: RT-11, Version 5.7 SPD 12.01.41 * (Single-User Operating System) * *DESCRIPTION * *RT-11 is a software product of Mentec, Inc. and is licensed under Com- *paq Computer Corporation's Standard Terms and Conditions. If you browse down a bit further, you see: *This very fast, multi-volume backup/restore facility supports the stream- *ing capabilities of Compaq's TK25, TSV05, TSU05, TK50, TU80, and TU81+ *tape drives. And to top it all off: *Compaq recommends that all other customers purchase Compaq's In- *stallation Services. These services provide for installation of the *software product by an experienced Compaq Software Specialist. If you want to see how much a "Compaq Software Specialist" knows about the PDP-11 OS's, just look at some recent postings to vmsnet.pdp-11 where a Compaq employee is trying to ask how to run BRU under RSX-11. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 2 10:27:30 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Rescuer's list vs Collector's list was Re: Collectors list In-Reply-To: <199904020717.CAA04100@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990402102730.2f67fea6@intellistar.net> At 02:17 AM 4/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >I guess I'm not advertising enough! Would anybody object if I >posted this announcement periodically, like maybe once every two >weeks, or once per month? Hi Bill, Do it! But I don't think the collector's list is intended to be a rescuer's list, just a list of people with old computer interests so that we can locate others with similar interest that are nearby. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 2 10:29:48 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: off-the-wall question (possibly OT) In-Reply-To: <199904020727.CAA04132@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990402102948.2f676866@intellistar.net> Bill, I've never heard a relay machine in operation but I've heard lots of telephone co switch rooms with the old stepping relays in opertation. I imagine the sound must be similar. Joe At 02:27 AM 4/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >Has anybody here ever heard a relay machine running, like one >of the early Zuse machines or the Harvard Mark-1? It occurred >to me (please don't ridicule me too much for this*) that the >sound of the robot in the old "Lost in Space" TV series may >have been intended to sound like a relay machine. I've heard >descriptions of them sounding like a thousand women knitting, >which could sort-of describe that robot sound-effect as well... > > Cheers, > Bill. > >* I guess you should ridicule me just the right amount. :-) > > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Apr 2 08:42:48 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation (OT) In-Reply-To: <990402092244.21600265@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at "Apr 2, 1999 9:22:44 am" Message-ID: <199904021442.JAA07919@pechter.dyndns.org> > *Compaq recommends that all other customers purchase Compaq's In- > *stallation Services. These services provide for installation of the > *software product by an experienced Compaq Software Specialist. > > If you want to see how much a "Compaq Software Specialist" knows about > the PDP-11 OS's, just look at some recent postings to vmsnet.pdp-11 where > a Compaq employee is trying to ask how to run BRU under RSX-11. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Hell, my office didn't know how to install and sysgen RT11 in 1986. Bill (who was one of the few RT11 hobbiests in DEC back then in NJ) --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From msteele at joules.enterprise-plc.com Fri Apr 2 03:43:44 1999 From: msteele at joules.enterprise-plc.com (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: off-the-wall question (possibly OT) References: <199904020727.CAA04132@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <37049150.73B7A232@joules.enterprise-plc.com> > Has anybody here ever heard a relay machine running, like one > of the early Zuse machines or the Harvard Mark-1? In the 70s I worked in the lab at a foundry and the atomic emission spectrophotometer which we used had a 'computer' biult from relays to integrate the signal. It then printed the results out using an electric typewriter which deoubled as a printer. I remember that, when relays stuck we had to resurface them by filing the contacts with a diamond dust coated spatula. > I've heard > descriptions of them sounding like a thousand women knitting, > which could sort-of describe that robot sound-effect as well... > I suppose it could be described like that ;-) Regards Pete From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Apr 2 08:54:05 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation (OT) Message-ID: <990402095405.21600265@trailing-edge.com> >> *Compaq recommends that all other customers purchase Compaq's In- >> *stallation Services. These services provide for installation of the >> *software product by an experienced Compaq Software Specialist. > >> If you want to see how much a "Compaq Software Specialist" knows about >> the PDP-11 OS's, just look at some recent postings to vmsnet.pdp-11 where >> a Compaq employee is trying to ask how to run BRU under RSX-11. >Hell, my office didn't know how to install and sysgen RT11 in 1986. For quite some time, when DEC decides that they fired/laid off/re-assigned the personnel that knew how to do the job, they've been going to outside sources (such as Mentec), and these outside sources often been hiring outside consultants. The markup after going through this chain of "resellers" is truly amazing; in some cases the customer has ended up paying $10K just for installation of a RSX11M+-with-TCPIP upgrade, for example. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 2 09:10:07 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: off-the-wall question (possibly OT) Message-ID: <002201be7d1a$e9e9fc00$0100c0a8@fuj03> Not quite . . . those stepping relays had quite a bit more energy as they had to move something more massive than the little relay contacts. It's more like what the room full of stepping relays sounded like from down the hall. You were only barely aware of it, but you were immediately aware of a change in the pattern. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 7:32 AM Subject: Re: off-the-wall question (possibly OT) >Bill, > > I've never heard a relay machine in operation but I've heard lots of >telephone co switch rooms with the old stepping relays in opertation. I >imagine the sound must be similar. > > Joe > >At 02:27 AM 4/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Has anybody here ever heard a relay machine running, like one >>of the early Zuse machines or the Harvard Mark-1? It occurred >>to me (please don't ridicule me too much for this*) that the >>sound of the robot in the old "Lost in Space" TV series may >>have been intended to sound like a relay machine. I've heard >>descriptions of them sounding like a thousand women knitting, >>which could sort-of describe that robot sound-effect as well... >> >> Cheers, >> Bill. >> >>* I guess you should ridicule me just the right amount. :-) >> >> > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Apr 2 09:26:55 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: PAGING: Joe Rigdon, Mike McManus Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990402072655.0096e610@mail.bluefeathertech.com> (Posted to the list, CC: to both recipient's E-addys) Will Joe Rigdon and Mike McManus please get in contact with me regarding their participation in the Teledisk group buy? Joe, I've seen your posts to the list so I know you're still around. However, you've not responded as yet to ANY of the E-mails I've sent you. Mike, I've just not gotten any responses from you at all. Please contact me ASAP. Thanks to you both. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 2 09:34:44 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Terak software In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990401093610.0111e9d0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990402093444.00c9a400@vpwisfirewall> At 12:40 AM 4/2/99 -0800, Sell 'em @ eBay wrote: >On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, John Foust wrote: > >> port, where I capture it using the venerable Pro-YAM telecom package. >> (Now there's a guy who belongs on this list .) > >Ah, Chuck Forsberg, a.k.a. TeleGodzilla? Yup. He's the one. Quite the god of telecom, judging by the level of detail in his manuals, and the power and reliability of Pro-YAM. My POTS dial-up has diminished ever since I got a T-1, but Pro-YAM's certainly one of the oldest yet original programs I've got on my PC. The other is Brief. Well, actually, BEEP.COM, SQ.COM, USQ.COM, BOLD.COM and SWEEP.EXE are still on my path, and they date to first-quarter '84. - John From kees.stravers at iae.nl Fri Apr 2 09:52:14 1999 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: DEC cables Message-ID: <19990402155214.35DF120F16@iaehv.iae.nl> >I have some DEC cables that I peicked up. Does anyone know what they're for? >Marked "BC-022D-10" also "82351-000" DB-25F on both ends estimate 10 >foot long >Marked "BC22D-50" also "71065" DB-25F on both ends, estimate 50 foot long >Marked "BC22D-25" also "71065" DB-25F on both ends, estimate 25 foot >long,NIB >Thanks, > Joe BC22D is a RS-232 null-modem cable, used to connect terminals to RS232 terminal ports on a VAX or PDP. See the DEC cables page at: Kees -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ I'm Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - Visit VAXarchive! http://www.vaxarchive.org/ (primary) http://www.sevensages.org/vax/ (mirror) http://www.coyote.org/mirrors/vaxarchive/ (mirror) From a2k at one.net Fri Apr 2 09:58:59 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation In-Reply-To: <199904021256.AA17014@world.std.com> Message-ID: Me too. I thought that a little... erm, revolting. Kevin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After sifting through the overwritten remaining blocks of Luke's home directory, Luke and PDP-1 sped away from /u/lars, across the surface of the Winchester riding Luke's flying read/write head. PDP-1 had Luke stop at the edge of the cylinder overlooking /usr/spool/uucp. "Unix-to-Unix Copy Program;" said PDP-1. "You will never find a more wretched hive of bugs and flamers. We must be cautious." -- DECWARS ____________________________________________________________________ | Kevin Stewart | "I am a secret | | KC8BLL ----------| Wrapped in a mystery -Milford High School | | a2k@one.net | Wrapped in an enigma Drama Tech Dept. | |jlennon@nether.net| And drizzled in some tasty chocolate stuff.| -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, Megan wrote: > > >I don't mind the "Compaq" where the "digital" used to be, it's the > >"Compaq OpenVMS" I find sick! How egotistical! > > What about DECUS?... I received my booklet announcing the next DECUS, > and it says 'DECUS, A Compaq Users Group'. > > ugh. > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | > | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | > | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | > | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > From emu at ecubics.com Fri Apr 2 10:02:49 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Collectors list Message-ID: <19990402160150.AAA24224@1Cust44.tnt20.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi Bill, ---------- > From: Bill Yakowenko > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Collectors list > Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 12:17 AM > > I guess I'm not advertising enough! Would anybody object if I > posted this announcement periodically, like maybe once every two > weeks, or once per month? YOU SHOULD, If you simply mail a pointer to it, should be enugh. > The "Classic Computer Rescue Squad" web page lists people's location, > classic computer interests, and contact info. If you aren't on it, > you are missing out. And if you want to find nearby classic computer > geeks, this is the obvious spot for one-stop-shopping. I thought about, why i haven't found this before. Sorry, no offense, but "its the name". ( seeing the "RESCUE" i saw already one of this SAR helicopters around my head ;-)) I just was on your site, and this is probably exactly what i tried to do. I would only suggest, to put the "collector" somewhere in the name. thanks a lot for your work, emanuel From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Apr 2 10:05:24 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Osborne PSU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990402110524.007a3830@mail.wincom.net> At 12:40 PM 4/1/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Hello, I recently aquired an Osbourne Model I luggable.. I have system >disks for it and I can't wait to fire it up.. unfortunately it has a bad >power switch (a little flaky; works occasionally, usually not), which is >not big deal as I can change that out.. the problem is when I was working >on the panel that has the wires attached (wrapped around those posts) I >accidentally ripped them all off (grr).. does anyone have a pinout of >which colored wires go to which pin? > >thanks, >Kevin Hi, Kevin: On my Osborne 1, looking at the back of the power plate, from left to right: Power switch-top left- brown from capacitor, top right- blue from capacitor Middle left brown to power trans, mid. right- blue to trans. Power connector-fuse assy. Brown from capacitor- H, blue from cap.- M Two long blue leads in power transformer cable attach to C & D. Assorted green wires are grounded at the lower right of the plate. Hope this helps Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 2 10:36:13 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation In-Reply-To: <990402091255.21600265@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Apr 2, 99 09:12:55 am Message-ID: <199904021636.IAA00776@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2220 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990402/ec7600c2/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 2 10:38:17 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation In-Reply-To: <199904021256.AA17014@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Apr 2, 99 07:56:08 am Message-ID: <199904021638.IAA00791@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 243 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990402/1202a294/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Fri Apr 2 11:04:37 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation In-Reply-To: <199904021638.IAA00791@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > What about DECUS?... I received my booklet announcing the next DECUS, > > and it says 'DECUS, A Compaq Users Group'. > > I'd not noticed that, but I'm not surprised. At least they've left the name > DECUS, at least for the time being. Well "CompaqUS" is just _too_ ugly. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Fri Apr 2 11:15:54 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > Well "CompaqUS" is just _too_ ugly. I dunno..."COMPUS" has such a nice ring to it... From bmahoney at sprint.ca Fri Apr 2 13:26:34 1999 From: bmahoney at sprint.ca (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Collectors list/rescue/whatever References: <19990402160150.AAA24224@1Cust44.tnt20.dfw5.da.uu.net> Message-ID: <370519EA.A715C854@sprint.ca> I look at this whole thing as a solution to a communication problem. If we have lists of names at every site, it seems to me that anyone out there who has a computer that they want to ditch can find someone to give it to, or sell or swap. The whole idea isn't to have a site with the most names, it is to get the 'precious bits' into the hands of people who will appreciate them. And believe me, there are lots of offers out there. My site, the geocities one, has been up since early 1996 and I regularly get offers of computers. The difference between these offered computers and the ones at the Goodwills/etc is that the former usually have all the docs, original software and are in pretty pristine shape. The latter are usually separated from their peripherals probably because the original owner kicked the bucket and the partner/son/daughter donated them to the thrift shop. Most of the offers I get come from the States and I cannot take advantage of them being in Canada. (US shipping rates are something I envy.) But I don't have US names and emails to bounce the offers to, simply because there wasn't a central clearinghouse that I could access (at least I didn't know of one.) So put my name on any list that's out there and list the three sites below. I am in Toronto. Likewise, if anyone wants to add their name and information to the growing list of collectors at the T3C site, you are very welcome. If you lurk here, all the more reason to add your name to the list. You might get an offer you can't refuse! Lastly, if you have an information (article/interesting photo/anecdote/etc) please send it to the address at the T3C site. If California does drift off into the Pacific, it would be nice if all of the information wasn't lost. The web is a great place to archive material, look at the classic mac site, and the T3C site is open to all kinds of input and, hopefully, will be a reference spot for collectors everywhere. Like this group is, but different! Brian Mahoney -- http://members.xoom.com/T3C/ http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/antique_computers http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/ From danburrows at mindspring.com Fri Apr 2 11:24:41 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Real Hackers, tools of the trade (was Re: Vector Graphic range...) Message-ID: <009d01be7d2e$e50c2aa0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >An expensive set, but WELL worth the money! Of course my set is actually >made up of two or three smaller sets. Xcellite are tops in my book! Of >course I'd rather have the set the size of a small suitcase! I have found that the 99MP is good as a starting base and then add the rest. In the toolbox that I use every day I think there is every 99 series tool that is avail. There are also some that they don't make anymore. Also you need to check out the security bit sets that Jensen offers. They have the most complete set I have found. Dan From elvey at hal.com Fri Apr 2 11:44:27 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Real Hackers, tools of the trade (was Re: Vector Graphic range...) In-Reply-To: <199904012324.PAA22644@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <199904021744.JAA03935@civic.hal.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > An expensive set, but WELL worth the money! Of course my set is actually > made up of two or three smaller sets. Xcellite are tops in my book! Of > course I'd rather have the set the size of a small suitcase! > > Zane Hi I find Xcellite screw driver blades to be too soft for continuous use. The rest of their products are OK. Other than the fact that they save time in collectioning a useful tools kit, I'd say that I could do better by selectively buying specific tools. Dwight From jlewczyk at his.com Fri Apr 2 11:56:13 1999 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Looking for 8008 language software (PL/M, MASM, BASIC,...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990401094223.47e76654@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000001be7d32$18dd0f90$013da8c0@Corellian> Hi Joe, Thanks for responding. What version? That's a good question. The only information that I have is a reference to the tools in my old MCS-8 User's Manual. I've never had, seen, nor used the original software, so I don't know what version. The MCS-8 manual is dated November 1974. It also describes a MCS-8 Cross Assembler Software Package (MAC 8) and MCS-8 Simulator Software Package (INTERP 8). There is also a reference to MCS-8 User's Program Library with items like: Binary Search Subroutine Floating Point Arithmetic Package 8-bit multiply 8-bit divide etc.. On the back/inside cover of the manual it states under "Ordering Information": PL/M Compiler Software Package (written in Fortran IV) MCS-8 Cross Assembler and Simulator Software Package (written in Fortran IV) The manual states that both are "available via time sharing service or directly from Intel". I have source for PL/M version 2.0 (January 1975) which is 8080 specific (The source and documents contain no references to "8008". So what I'm looking for I guess predates that. Unless this version produces code (or could be modified to produce code) that is 8008 compatible. I haven't yet looked into that idea. If what you have in 8" floppies could be transferred to a DOS diskette or even emailed to me or placed on some ftp sire I could check it out and see if its what I'm looking for. Let me know what you need to do that: $$ or trade or whatever. Thanks! > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe [mailto:rigdonj@intellistar.net] > Sent: Thursday, April 01, 1999 9:42 AM > To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Subject: Re: Looking for 8008 language software (PL/M, MASM, BASIC,...) > > > John, > > I think I have all of that stuff on 8" floppy disks for the > Intel MDS but > I don't know if it is 8080 only or if it will produce 8008 code. Do you > know anything about what version you need? > > Joe > > At 01:52 PM 3/31/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi. I'm new to the list and this is my first posting. I am looking for > >PL/M cross compiler that Intel produced for the 8008 CPU. I > have the Intel > >manual, but no source or object for the language compiler, which > was written > >in Fortran by Gary Kildall when he worked for Intel back in > ~1973. I have > >source for an 8080 version of PL/M from Intel which went into the public > >domain at some time, but I do not believe that it will produce 8008 code > >(that ability is not mentioned in the documentation). Any help or > >information on this would be appreciated. > > > >Also, a macro assembler or a basic interpreter would also be appreciated! > > > >Anything would be better than hand assembling and jamming in bytes via > >switches. > > > > > >Thanks, > > > >John > > > >- John Lewczyk > >- IO Consulting > >- 401 Queens Row Street > >- Herndon, Virginia 20170-3131 > >- jlewczyk@his.com > > > > > > From jlewczyk at his.com Fri Apr 2 12:19:19 1999 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Help finding software for Nicolet NPC-764 logic analyzer (8085 CP/M) Message-ID: <000201be7d35$530ea540$013da8c0@Corellian> I recently obtained an old Nicolett NPC-764, which is a CP/M machine (8085 based) with a built in Logic Analyzer, with software for the logic analyzer built into ROM. Its a "luggable" computer (which means that they put a handle on it and bolted down all the boards ;-). One thing I do not have is any 5 1/4" floppy disks for it. Therefore I can't boot CP/M and I don't have any of the software that came with the unit to assist in using the logic analyzer. Do have any idea on how I could get some of this software? Nicolet hasn't been any help. Thanks! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 2 11:28:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Real Hackers, tools of the trade (was Re: Vector Graphic range...) In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Apr 1, 99 05:11:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 563 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990402/6f0bcc29/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 2 11:31:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) In-Reply-To: <199904020217.AA07077@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 1, 99 09:17:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 994 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990402/6cb883be/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 2 11:36:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) In-Reply-To: <001401be7cb1$8ab313c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 1, 99 07:35:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1770 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990402/862c1fb5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 2 11:37:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: LT33? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 1, 99 08:33:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 397 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990402/78c302a8/attachment.ksh From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Apr 2 13:18:21 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: H740 Bridge Rectifier Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990402111821.0072b224@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Allison: I have the schematic in front of me, mechanical drawing too. It's on my web site if you _really_ need it after this, or send me your fax number and I'll get it to you that way. Looking at the mechanical drawing, if you look at the rear of the 8/f, with the H740 installed, the bridge rectifier is at the top, right hand side of the supply, above the large heat sink fins, to the right of two large transistors. Ascii art for pin orientation: (top edge of board, as you face component side with H740 installed) --------- | + AC| (Large Trans) (Large Trans) | | |AC -| --------- ----------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- (Heat Sink Fins) ----------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- (Large Trans) (Large Trans) (Large Trans) (Round connector) (bottom edge of board) The rectifier is labelled only "NSS3514", no ratings indicated in the specs, just "bridge rectifier". Input is 28VAC. Good luck, Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 2 13:19:53 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > Very effective, IMHO. I've built analogue circuitry running at 50MHz+ > using it, and I know the technique is good to at least VHF. Actually with care to uhf. I did a simple reciever converter section at 432mhz that way and it was solid. Then again I inteneded it to be that way. Loose and flying parts are not acceptable unless it's a get it working fast jury rig. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 2 13:22:04 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: LT33? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > What on earth requires the low-speed reader rather than a much nicer high > speed reader? What ever teh local name for money is, or more correctly the lack thereof. Allison From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Apr 2 13:46:38 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:42 2005 Subject: New uses for old toys! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13440338900.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Has he thought about the power requirements?] Thankfully, no. I've tried to keep him AWAY from that topic... [Why am I asking if it's legal?] Isn't everything else this good illegal? ------- From mbg at world.std.com Fri Apr 2 14:00:57 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation (OT) Message-ID: <199904022000.AA09455@world.std.com> >>I doubt the RT-11 also > >The RT-11 5.7 SPD has been out for over half a year now, and begins: > >* COMPAQ >* >*Software >*Product >*Description Oh... "Never mind." Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 2 14:07:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: Real Hackers, tools of the trade (was Re: Vector Graphic range...) In-Reply-To: <009d01be7d2e$e50c2aa0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Apr 2, 99 12:24:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1272 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990402/bca9bfdb/attachment.ksh From jlewczyk at his.com Fri Apr 2 14:27:35 1999 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: Nicolett NPC-764 CP/M machine & logic analyzer. Message-ID: <000401be7d47$3e7c34f0$013da8c0@Corellian> I have an old Nicolett NPC-764, which is CP/M machine (8085 based) with built in Logic Analyzer hardware (its main function). The logic analyzer software was stored in 48K of ROM, and you could boot CP/M from there. Its a "luggable" computer (which means that they put a handle on it and bolted down all the boards ;-). One thing I do not have is any 5 1/4" floppy disks for it. Because of this, I can't boot CP/M and I don't have any of the software that came with the unit that assist in using some of the logic analyzer's abilities. Do have any idea on how I could get some of this software? Nicolet hasn't been any help. Thanks! - John Lewczyk - IO Consulting - 401 Queens Row Street - Herndon, Virginia 20170-3131 - jlewczyk@his.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Apr 2 09:30:43 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: Rescuer's list vs Collector's list was Re: Collectors Message-ID: <199904022028.PAA15046@smtp.interlog.com> On 2 Apr 99 at 10:27, Joe wrote: > At 02:17 AM 4/2/99 -0500, you wrote: > >I guess I'm not advertising enough! Would anybody object if I > >posted this announcement periodically, like maybe once every two > >weeks, or once per month? > > Hi Bill, > > Do it! But I don't think the collector's list is intended to be a > rescuer's list, just a list of people with old computer interests so that we > can locate others with similar interest that are nearby. > > Joe > > Exactly. Those on the collectors list would not necessarily be willing to go to extent of arranging transport etc. For example, altho I have done rescues of old equipment, I don't even have a vehicle to do so and as with most of us very limited and rapidly dwindling storage space. It just makes it easier to find collectors in your locale who might have similiar interests. It's a good start but please keep the names coming. Only those collectors who wish to be included on the list and who send the data will be listed. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 2 14:15:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Apr 2, 99 02:19:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1151 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990402/a09633c6/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 2 14:59:12 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: LT33? In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Apr 2, 99 02:22:04 pm Message-ID: <199904022059.MAA06659@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 359 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990402/ec36d339/attachment.ksh From danburrows at mindspring.com Fri Apr 2 14:45:01 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: Real Hackers, tools of the trade (was Re: Vector Graphic range...) Message-ID: <01ff01be7d4b$96039930$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >> In the toolbox that I use every day I think there is every 99 series tool >> that is avail. There are also some that they don't make anymore. Also you > >What has been discontinued? I remember seeing a stubby handle once. And >magnetic nutdrivers (although the magnetic 1/4" one is in the 99MP kit). >Anything else? There were 2 sizes of reamers and only one now is the primary one that comes to mind. The one I use the most is the one they discontinued - of course since mine is dull. >>'Tamperproof' Torx drivers are almost essential if you work on SMPSUs >(many manufacturers seem to like them). I've got all sorts of strange >drivers (Torq, Tri-wing, etc), but I've never seen them in computer >equipment. Tamperproof allen and brain fade due to lack of sleep lately. Dan From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 2 17:06:56 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: Nicolett NPC-764 CP/M machine & logic analyzer. In-Reply-To: <000401be7d47$3e7c34f0$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990402170656.2f67bc64@intellistar.net> At 03:27 PM 4/2/99 -0500, John wrote: >I have an old Nicolett NPC-764, which is CP/M machine (8085 based) with >built in Logic Analyzer hardware (its main function). The logic analyzer >software was stored in 48K of ROM, and you could boot CP/M from there. Its >a "luggable" computer (which means that they put a handle on it and bolted >down all the boards ;-). Sounds like my Gould K-450B. It's a heavy bastard! I was lucky, this one came with a disk with the OS software. I've passed up several because they didn't have the SW. One thing I do not have is any 5 1/4" floppy disks >for it. Because of this, I can't boot CP/M and I don't have any of the >software that came with the unit that assist in using some of the logic >analyzer's abilities. Do have any idea on how I could get some of this >software? Nicolet hasn't been any help. Just keep putting want ads out in the test equipment news-groups. You could also check with the used manual people. I found one that had manuals and disks for the Gould but they wanted over $100 for both. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 2 15:14:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: Real Hackers, tools of the trade (was Re: Vector Graphic range...) In-Reply-To: <01ff01be7d4b$96039930$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Apr 2, 99 03:45:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1062 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990402/0837bf4f/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Fri Apr 2 15:22:54 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: first DEC machine Message-ID: Howdy; Several years ago while I was at UW I promised myself that one day I'd get a VAX and learn how to use VMS. That day came yesterday, when a VAXstation 3100m76 showed up on my doorstep. So in the immortal words of Zane, "I can't get it to boot." (: I realise I may be making an entirely faulty set of assumptions about what I'm doing so here's where I'm at. I received also an LK201 keyboard, the wondrous "hockey puck" mouse, and the video cable (15 pin D-sub on one end, 3 BNC plus what look to be keyboard and mouse connectors). The machine supposedly has SPX graphics. I connected the video cable to the appropriate port on the rear of the VAX, and plugged the keyboard and mouse into the connectors on the cable, and the 3 BNC to a NEC 5fge, which supports composite sync-on-green and I'm fairly sure should sync up to whatever the VAX puts out. Switched the machine on, and waited. And waited. Nothing. No lights on the keyboard, nothing on the display. The LED status whatsis at the rear wibbled around a bit but I didn't pay close attention to what it was doing. The disks never spun up. I tried again with the keyboard and mouse plugged into the connectors on the back of the machine, and got keyboard lights, but aside from that had the same luck as before. What should I be looking at first? I'll try to borrow from work a cable I can use to connect a serial terminal to the box to see if anything useful happens then. ok r. From emu at ecubics.com Fri Apr 2 15:42:44 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: first DEC machine Message-ID: <19990402214652.AAA16717@1Cust125.tnt37.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi r, Tell us the signature of the LED's. Probably, something is wrong with your motherboard, memory, graphics ... Another idea is to plug in a terminal in the printer port. probably you get a message there.And don't forget to put the little switch "up" that is left to the 8 LEDs. If it is already "up" you have the terminal as the console already, so you don't get anything on the Monitor. You told that you have a Lk201 ? Which of the LEDs are on ? (they displaying some errors from the box too) hope it helps, cheers, emanuel ---------- > From: R. Stricklin (kjaeros) > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: first DEC machine > Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 2:22 PM > > > Howdy; > > Several years ago while I was at UW I promised myself that one day I'd get > a VAX and learn how to use VMS. That day came yesterday, when a VAXstation > 3100m76 showed up on my doorstep. BTW, the name for my is "godot" simply because I waited so long ... > I received also an LK201 keyboard, the wondrous "hockey puck" mouse, and > the video cable (15 pin D-sub on one end, 3 BNC plus what look to be > keyboard and mouse connectors). The machine supposedly has SPX graphics. nice !!! > Switched the machine on, and waited. And waited. Nothing. No lights on the > keyboard, nothing on the display. The LED status whatsis at the rear > wibbled around a bit but I didn't pay close attention to what it was > doing. That's bad .. > The disks never spun up. Usually they spin up, IF the system tries to boot from them, or you execute a "show config" > I tried again with the keyboard and mouse plugged into the connectors on > the back of the machine, and got keyboard lights, but aside from that had > the same luck as before. which lights ? From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Apr 2 15:47:46 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation In-Reply-To: <199904021638.IAA00791@shell2.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 2, 99 08:38:17 am Message-ID: <199904022147.NAA32590@saul5.u.washington.edu> Zane wrote: > I'd not noticed that, but I'm not surprised. At least they've left the name > DECUS, at least for the time being. Well, "decus" is a Latin word. (I forget what it means -- it's part of a motto, "decus et tutamen". One translation could be "an ornament and a safeguard", though I thought "an ARMAMENT and a shield" was the translation.) So there's an angle that would encourage keeping the old name. Maybe DECUS could claim to be an independent entity and fight the change? To me, CUS sounds too much like swearing and I would be tempted to turn COMPUS into PUS. -- Derek From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 2 15:56:47 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: first DEC machine In-Reply-To: from "R. Stricklin" at Apr 2, 99 04:22:54 pm Message-ID: <199904022156.NAA08127@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1333 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990402/d5a67ca0/attachment.ksh From danburrows at mindspring.com Fri Apr 2 15:19:10 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: Real Hackers, tools of the trade (was Re: Vector Graphic range...) Message-ID: <022801be7d52$c668a690$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> > >A tip I saw in a magazine a few weeks back (and haven't tried) for >sharpening dull reamers was to run a carbide-tipped lathe tool (about >\pounds 5.00 if you don't have one) along the flutes of the reamer (up >under the flutes I guess). Apparently, this will put the edge back on. Someday I will have to try that. > >Were you saying that Xcellite used to do them in the 99 range? They're >now listing tamperproof Torx in a couple of sizes. > I have gotten rather frustrated with Xcellite over the last 10+ years because they are so slow to come out with new stuff. All of my tamperproof bits are other MFG. Dan From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 2 16:03:38 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) Message-ID: <002401be7d54$a9e785c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> I take extra care with my prototypes because they not only prove the concept, but they have to serve as a development tool. In reality, wire-wrapped circuits are more likely to survive mishandling than a PCB would be. Whereas you could break a pin or a wire, that's normally quite apparent to visual inspection. I've got a whole paper-box full of perfect-looking PCB's which don't work because of some intermittent open or short due to an overetched or overstressed circuit board. Where space was a problem, I've been known (rarely) to ship prototypes which were hand-wired with point-to-point soldered #30 wire. This is much like wire-wrap, except it require much greater care to cut the wires to just the right length and strip just the right amount of insulation. It makes for plenty of wasted wire. BTW, TechAmerica now sells sheets of 0.100" matrix wire-wrap card with low-impeance ground/Vcc plane on top/bottom, similar to what I used to build into my wire-wrap boards. This is really handy, because you can isolate one section of ground plane from another with a Dremel tool and connect them with a bypassed ferrite bead or low-value resistor. This makes for realtively quite regions if you take sufficient pains. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 11:23 AM Subject: Re: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) >> >> This strategy is pretty popular with analog work being tried for the first >> time. I prefer to wire-wrap my digital stuff, and I've shown that wire-wrap > >Yes, dead bugging takes far too long for most digital stuff. I still >think you need a groundplane for anything with dfast edges (which means >just about anything using modern chips). > >> between digital and analog circuitry can be mde to work as well. I prefer > >I've been known to screw a piece of copperclad as a 'dead bug' >groundplane to the edge of a board containing wire-wrapped circuitry. It >might not look all that neat, but it's solid, and it works. > >> my prototypes to be really rugged unless there's a specific reason why one >> can't be, and I'm always afraid to play with those "spiderweb-technology" >> circuits, so once built, they never get any improvement from me. > >There is rarely any excuse for sloppy construction, even in prototypes. > >> >> Now, I've learned a few tricks from those analog weenies who use this kind >> of stuff all the time. I'll certainly never forget watching one guy track >> down a 4MHz clock from a processor getting into the analog section of his >> circuit by using a divider with points sharp enough to penetrate the solder >> mask and a spectrum analyzer. He found the section of ground plane which >> needed bypass, then fixed it with a couple of capacitors bypassing the >> unwanted signal to just the right place. No mean trick if you ask me. > >Another trick worth knowing is that sometimes cutting a slot in the >groundplane can isolate a noise source (like that processor) from the >sensitive input circuitry. You want to prevent digital ground currents >from getting anywhere near the analogue side. The impedance of a >groundplane can cause problems. > >-tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 2 16:48:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) In-Reply-To: <002401be7d54$a9e785c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 2, 99 03:03:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 477 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990402/45c47c06/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 2 18:18:34 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: first DEC machine Message-ID: <199904030018.AA07907@world.std.com> Google > >(NOTE: You received this news because you chose to receive my >notes about "Important PC Industry Happenings". If you're unhappy >about this, you may visit your personal preferences page using >the link below. I hope you've found this information useful!) > >Steve Gibson. > >________________________________________________________________ >You may easily edit your profile, or remove yourself from this >eMail system entirely, by visiting your personal page anytime: >Edit Profile >Please DO NOT REPLY to this message since it will only be seen >by my mailbot. If you need to contact my office for any reason, >please write to: eMail Us > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 3 10:33:04 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: New arrivals to the Vintage Computer Festival Archives! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990402224155.00db1680@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, James Willing wrote: > At 09:31 PM 4/2/99 -0800, you wrote: > > > >Hey, check out the new arrivals to the VCF Archives: > > > >* IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter > >* Small-scale Honeywell DPS-6 mainframe > > > > Man, that '557 looks to be in real nice shape! (externally at least) It is for the most part. No gouges or dents in the side panels. The only problem is the side panels need to be hammered back into proper alignment. They've gotten bent and misaligned during the journey this thing took from General Electric's Nuclear Division to my warehouse. The electrical system and mechanics seem to be in tact. It just needs a good vacuuming inside. I got the Field Maintenance manual and Illustrated Parts Catalog, plus some punch cards from GE that'd gotten stashed in the bottom of the unit. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 3 10:34:22 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <199904031634.AA18498@world.std.com> 128k). There are designs out ther ethat are 3.5" foot print and work well with 3.5" floppies and IDE or scsi drives. Allison From bill at chipware.com Sat Apr 3 10:58:19 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: New arrivals to the Vintage Computer Festival Archives! Message-ID: <199904031657.IAA27070@mxu3.u.washington.edu> > They've gotten bent and misaligned during the journey this thing took from > General Electric's Nuclear Division to my warehouse. Uh... Doesn't glow in the dark does it? From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 3 11:57:47 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: OT: Linux was Steve Gibson's NEWS of a Stunning NEW Search Engine ... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990403120553.0b1f9d8a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: >>A couple of extremely bright guys at Stanford University solved >>the Web Search Engine Problem once and for all, creating the last >>search system you will ever need: http://google.com/ I think I saw this on freshmeat a couple months ago as it looks slightly familiar. I just gave a try, not bad at all! It's now bookmarked. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 3 11:53:39 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: OT: Relevance ranking (was: Gibson's NEWS of Search Engine ... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990403120553.0b1f9d8a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > I got this from Steve GiBson (author of SpinRite) and thought some of > you might be interested since you're Linux fans. I haven't tried the search > engine that he's talkng about so I have no idea if his claims are factual. "Citation/referral frequency" may be the ultimate system of relevance ranking for Mr. Gibson, and I'm glad that he has found the right system for him to find the most POPULAR sites of what he wants. But when you are looking for unusual/rare information, there might not be ANY other sites that point to what you want, and popularity becomes an inappropriate ranking. For example, with his system, Amazon.com would always come out ahead of Abebooks.com If you want exactly the same as what everybody else is looking for, fine. But if your needs do not match the MODE, optimization for RECALL is most important, and reduction for PRECISION can be done ONLY with sufficient RECALL. Therefore, a probabilistic or even vector-space ranking would work better. But for MY needs, carefully chosen search terms in DOGPILE works best. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Apr 3 15:01:38 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... Message-ID: <01be7e15$2ac7c220$7b8ea6d1@the-general> Does anyone have (or know where to get) an old (b/w) Apple ImageWriter printer for under $20? I also need a cable to connect an Apple //c to a printer. ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 3 12:17:37 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... In-Reply-To: <01be7e15$2ac7c220$7b8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > Does anyone have (or know where to get) an old (b/w) Apple ImageWriter > printer for under $20? > I also need a cable to connect an Apple //c to a printer. Thrift Stores usually have one in that price range. But if I remember you were posting a message about how you were so far out in the boondocks that they had to make a new zip code for you, so I guess thrift stores are not a viable option. I have a few spares in my warehouse that need to find good homes. E-mail me if you can't find one locally and we'll work something out. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 3 13:07:21 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:43 2005 Subject: classic back ends? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990402234837.00a39a70@mcmanis.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Fri, 02 Apr 1999 23:50:37 -0800) References: <4.1.19990402234837.00a39a70@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <19990403190721.21708.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck asks: > Are there backends for the GCC compiler tools for the 'classic' computers > out there? I'm particularly interested in a PDP-11 back end at the moment > as it seems that I could easily port uC/OS II to the 11/23 and have > something useful without forking over the RT11 dough. Sounds like a fun project. Yes, there is a PDP-11 back end for GCC, although it is not part of the standard distribution. I don't have it handy, but if you can't find it, I can probably dig it out of my archives. I've never actually tried to use it, so I can't vouch for its quality. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 3 12:08:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <199904031215.HAA16551@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgocable.net" at Apr 3, 99 07:20:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1813 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990403/52add02a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 3 12:17:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <990403092505.212000c1@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Apr 3, 99 09:25:05 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1155 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990403/c51e500e/attachment.ksh From bmahoney at sprint.ca Sat Apr 3 15:45:05 1999 From: bmahoney at sprint.ca (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... References: <01be7e15$2ac7c220$7b8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <37068BE1.28BF6AC2@sprint.ca> Depending on where you are ... Business Depot here in Canada still sells the Apple cables as does the Black Book company. I think BD is Staples in some parts of the States as well as Canada. Try your local elementary school for the printer. Trade your experience or technology expertise for it. Brian Mahoney Jason Willgruber wrote: > Does anyone have (or know where to get) an old (b/w) Apple ImageWriter > printer for under $20? > I also need a cable to connect an Apple //c to a printer. > > ThAnX, > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > -- http://members.xoom.com/T3C/ http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/antique_computers http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 3 14:00:33 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: classic back ends? In-Reply-To: <19990403190721.21708.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <4.1.19990402234837.00a39a70@mcmanis.com> <4.1.19990402234837.00a39a70@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990403115531.00a99180@mcmanis.com> At 07:07 PM 4/3/99 +0000, Eric responds: >Sounds like a fun project. Yes, there is a PDP-11 back end for GCC, although >it is not part of the standard distribution. I don't have it handy, but >if you can't find it, I can probably dig it out of my archives. So I downloaded 2.8.1 (current? I don't know) and did a configure --target=pdp11 and it generates an xgcc that can cross compile into what looks like PDP-11 source code. Of course the compilation of dummy.c failed since gas doesn't know about the 11. I looked at the BFD and it seems to not know about 11's. Sigh. So I can compile, I just can't assemble. For the other question (asked by someone else) uC/OS (mu-cos, aka snot) is a simple multitasking O/S written by Jean Labrosse and described in his book of the same name. uC/OS ver 1 was not useful but version 2 actually could be useful for what I'd like to do. (Which is to run simple stuff on a PDP-11 and -8) (and no, there isn't a back end for the pdp-8 in any of the GNU tools :-) --Chuck From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Apr 3 16:54:11 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... Message-ID: <01be7e24$e3601580$7b8ea6d1@the-general> >Depending on where you are ... Business Depot here in Canada still sells >the Apple cables as does the Black Book company. I think BD is Staples in >some parts of the States as well as Canada. > I think I'll try OfficeMax - There's one about 10 miles away. >Try your local elementary school for the printer. Trade your experience >or technology expertise for it. They treasure their Apples like gold. Every room has a //c or ][, they even still have a few TRS-80's. They haven't stepped up to Macs yet. Having them subscribe to this list may ba a good idea - The computer lab consists of 40 Tandy 1000 TL2's. In the Ambridge school district, they won't let a piece of computer equipment go until it either won't turn on, or smoke starts pouring out of it. The High school has a Mac Classic that has the case held together with duct tape because someone knocked it off the table. The picture is crooked on it now, too (I think the yoke somehow got twisted). -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 > Brian Mahoney From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Apr 3 14:22:37 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? Message-ID: This message is for Zane Healy, but I thought it would maybe help some others on The List. First: Many, Many thanks to Dave Jenner, from whom (in Seattle) I recieved a kilopound of RL02s and related items. I am still sorting thru things, in a desperate pitched battle to reclaim at least part of my house from my 'collection' ;] In a box (from Dave, IIRC) I have found (3) three RLV11 cardsets, the printsets for same, and the printsets and drawings for the RL01 and 02. This is kinda like going thru the pockets of an old coat and finding a couple of hundred-dollar bills (pound notes, Deutschmarks, Rupees, etc...) I know that Zane has successfully attached RL02s to his 11/73, and I wanna do that, too... The 11/73 has an RQDX2 and one RX02 8"... tell me how much more info to provide and I'll do that. I'm going to try to install the boards, but the little backplane is stuffed and I need to re-arrange some things. Wait... will RLV11s go in the 11/44??? That would be major cool, as well... I need so much more doc than I have here right now, and my ISDN line is down (thanks a bazillion, GTE) so surfing the web's a pain... waah waaaahh wahh whiney luser lart lart lart. Cheers and Thanks John From svs at ropnet.ru Sat Apr 3 15:23:27 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: HP 88780 9-track tape drive Message-ID: <19990404002327.24210@firepower> G'day, Yesterday four geeks (including myself) had tried to convince a HP 88780 9-track SCSI drive (cleverly disguised as Tandem 5160) to accept 6250 bpi tapes. It works OK at 1600 bpi, but refuses to admit it knows about 6250: "mt setdensity 3" on a Linux box results in "Incompatible media installed" error (when the tape written at 6250 bpi is loaded.) The problem is: no docs. By playing with front panel buttons, we discovered lots of interesting knobs to turn (CONF 40..199), but weren't inclined to try them all. What CONF will allow 6250 bpi density to be used? Or is it permanently disabled by Tandem-customized firmware? -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 3 14:25:48 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? Message-ID: <990403152548.212000ed@trailing-edge.com> > In a box (from Dave, IIRC) I have found (3) three RLV11 cardsets, >the printsets for same, and the printsets and drawings for the RL01 >and 02. This is kinda like going thru the pockets of an old coat >... >... I know that Zane has successfully attached RL02s to his 11/73, and >I wanna do that, too... You're fine, as long as your 11/73 has less than 248 kbytes in it. The RLV11 won't DMA any higher than 18-bits; if you've got 256kbytes or more of RAM, you want a RLV21. > The 11/73 has an RQDX2 and one RX02 8"... tell me how much more >info to provide and I'll do that. I'm going to try to install the >boards, but the little backplane is stuffed and I need to re-arrange >some things. Oh, yes, the backplane: You need two adjacent slots with the "CD" bus. Depending on what else you have, this may not be possible in a BA23. > Wait... will RLV11s go in the 11/44??? That would be major cool, >as well... No, the RLV11's won't, but a RL11 will. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 3 14:32:07 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: HP 88780 9-track tape drive Message-ID: <990403153207.212000ed@trailing-edge.com> >Yesterday four geeks (including myself) had tried to convince a HP 88780 >9-track SCSI drive (cleverly disguised as Tandem 5160) to accept 6250 bpi >tapes. It works OK at 1600 bpi, but refuses to admit it knows about 6250: >"mt setdensity 3" on a Linux box results in "Incompatible media installed" >error (when the tape written at 6250 bpi is loaded.) You shouldn't have to do the setdensity operation; the drive ought to be able to read the 6250 BPI drive in any event. What happens when you try to read the 6250 BPI tape? Historically, the SCSI commands for selecting tape drive density have been either ignored or misinterpreted by everyone throughout the years. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Apr 3 14:58:45 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? References: <990403152548.212000ed@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <37068105.A345DE67@idirect.com> >CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > In a box (from Dave, IIRC) I have found (3) three RLV11 cardsets, > >the printsets for same, and the printsets and drawings for the RL01 > >and 02. This is kinda like going thru the pockets of an old coat > >... I know that Zane has successfully attached RL02s to his 11/73, and > >I wanna do that, too... > You're fine, as long as your 11/73 has less than 248 kbytes in it. > The RLV11 won't DMA any higher than 18-bits; if you've got 256kbytes > or more of RAM, you want a RLV21. Jerome Fine replies: The last time (I only EVER did it once) I put the dual board RLV11 board set into an ABAB (Q22) backplane, I destroyed the boards. As Tim Shoppa states, they MUST go into two slots which are both ABCD. In a BA23 box, the top 3 slots are ABCD. I presume that if you put the CPU in the top slot and the RLV11 in the 2nd and third slot, it might work. Has anyone ever done that successfully? Also, if you are running RT-11, you can still use more than 256 KBytes in the system, just don't try to do it with the RLV11. PIP can copy anything from the RL02s to the RD53 and then let you use the rest of the memory over 256 KBytes. > > The 11/73 has an RQDX2 and one RX02 8"... tell me how much more > >info to provide and I'll do that. I'm going to try to install the > >boards, but the little backplane is stuffed and I need to re-arrange > >some things. What backplane are you using? Most BA-11 backplanes are ABCD with 9 slots including a terminator board which MUST be the last slot you use and is usually the last physical slot since bus grants are not a problem with regard to termination. The ABCD slots are quad width and accept dual boards as well, but the other half MUST stay empty. The RX02 requires a dual M8029 (I think it is called an RXV12) with a 40 pin cable. The RQDX2 allows RD51, RD52, RD53. It is a quad board (a -YB). Most will not accept an RD52 from an RQDX1 without re-format. If your backplane is stuffed, what else do you have? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Apr 3 15:03:44 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... In-Reply-To: <01be7e24$e3601580$7b8ea6d1@the-general> from Jason Willgruber at "Apr 3, 1999 02:54:11 pm" Message-ID: <199904032103.PAA27692@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > > >Depending on where you are ... Business Depot here in Canada still sells > >the Apple cables as does the Black Book company. I think BD is Staples in > >some parts of the States as well as Canada. > > > I think I'll try OfficeMax - There's one about 10 miles away. > > >Try your local elementary school for the printer. Trade your experience > >or technology expertise for it. > > They treasure their Apples like gold. Every room has a //c or ][, they > even still have a few TRS-80's. They haven't stepped up to Macs yet. > Having them subscribe to this list may ba a good idea - The computer lab > consists of 40 Tandy 1000 TL2's. In the Ambridge school district, they > won't let a piece of computer equipment go until it either won't turn on, or > smoke starts pouring out of it. > The High school has a Mac Classic that has the case held together with duct > tape because someone knocked it off the table. The picture is crooked on it > now, too (I think the yoke somehow got twisted). > Geez! Trade em some more modern hardware for what you want/need. I've been giving away lots of Mac IICi's for the last 2 years now, since the university here keeps throwing em away. Another department here has been trying to sell mac IICi's for $15 each, and it doesnt look like they are selling em at that price. I dont have any TRS-80's in my collection (except one mutant model 4), and if they have any REAL apple II's (ie, not a plus model, the real integer basic II's), it would seem to be a nice trade.. I imagine they would love a 486 system, or even a good 386, if all they have are TRS-80's and Apple II series computers. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Apr 3 18:17:07 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... Message-ID: <01be7e30$79520160$a38ea6d1@the-general> >Geez! Trade em some more modern hardware for what you want/need. I've >been giving away lots of Mac IICi's for the last 2 years now, since >the university here keeps throwing em away. Another department here >has been trying to sell mac IICi's for $15 each, and it doesnt look like >they are selling em at that price. > Where are you located? I wouldn't mind getting one of those Macs. My church has also been looking for a couple old Macs for their education center, since there's a Mac guru that goes to my church (anyone need System 7.5 or System 7.5.x updates??) >I dont have any TRS-80's in my collection (except one mutant model 4), >and if they have any REAL apple II's (ie, not a plus model, the real >integer basic II's), it would seem to be a nice trade.. I imagine >they would love a 486 system, or even a good 386, if all they have >are TRS-80's and Apple II series computers. > I think They have a couple that they use (at least they did when I went there) for their card scanner (for bubble-sheet tests). The only TRS-80 that I have is a fried Model III that I've gutted and am trying to convert it using some old Tandy 1000 parts (anyone know how to connect a TRS-80 monitor to a CGA or composite output?) -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 >-Lawrence LeMay >lemay@cs.umn.edu > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Apr 3 15:35:38 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... In-Reply-To: <01be7e30$79520160$a38ea6d1@the-general> from Jason Willgruber at "Apr 3, 1999 04:17:07 pm" Message-ID: <199904032135.PAA27743@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > > >Geez! Trade em some more modern hardware for what you want/need. I've > >been giving away lots of Mac IICi's for the last 2 years now, since > >the university here keeps throwing em away. Another department here > >has been trying to sell mac IICi's for $15 each, and it doesnt look like > >they are selling em at that price. > > > Where are you located? I wouldn't mind getting one of those Macs. My > church has also been looking for a couple old Macs for their education > center, since there's a Mac guru that goes to my church (anyone need System > 7.5 or System 7.5.x updates??) Minneapolis. Apple has released system 7.5.5 on their web site recently. I dont have many monitors, and those would be difficult/expensive to ship. But I have several base units, and i can upgrade them to 250 meg hard drives and fill em with 1 meg simms easily enough (8 meg total). 2 summers ago we had 2 large stacks of these in the hallway, eventually the janitor took em all and sold em to some company. I have at least 3 I could trade away for interesting old stuff. I never expected to collect Macs anyways, but they seem to fall into my lap... Old sun workstations are also easy for me to come by. There will probably be a few sparc 1's and 2's tossed this summer, as well as SLC and ELC's of course. And who lmows, one of these days we may start tossing better stuff like the IPX's. There's a VT100 in the hallway right now. Some jerk went by and cutoff the keyboard cable for some assnine reason, probably thought it was a stereo jack on the end... Oh yeah, and there will be 2 apple imagewriters tossed this summer. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu (University of Minnesota, Computer Science Dept) From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Apr 3 15:44:41 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... In-Reply-To: <199904032135.PAA27743@thufir.cs.umn.edu> from Lawrence LeMay at "Apr 3, 1999 03:35:38 pm" Message-ID: <199904032144.PAA27778@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > > > > >Geez! Trade em some more modern hardware for what you want/need. I've > > >been giving away lots of Mac IICi's for the last 2 years now, since > > >the university here keeps throwing em away. Another department here > > >has been trying to sell mac IICi's for $15 each, and it doesnt look like > > >they are selling em at that price. > > > > > Where are you located? I wouldn't mind getting one of those Macs. My > > church has also been looking for a couple old Macs for their education > > center, since there's a Mac guru that goes to my church (anyone need System > > 7.5 or System 7.5.x updates??) > Actually, here is a URL for the campus computer repair services. They've started a program where they will come pickup junk computer hardware on campus for free, which they then turn around and attempt to sell. You can see some of whats available on the web: http://www.umn.edu/crs Of course, i'm sure they dont ship items, but if you're in the minneapolis area, or know someone here and are desperate for something, then something might be arranged. of course, John Keys might be making a beeline to buy all this stuff up already ;) -Lawrence LeMay From max82 at surfree.com Sat Apr 3 15:58:04 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: OT: Classic Bicycles? Message-ID: Well, I found what I was looking for: A lunatic that collects bicycles. He has more bicycles than some of you have computers (certainly more than I do). Check out http://www.sheldonbrown.com/bicycle.html --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From svs at ropnet.ru Sat Apr 3 16:59:47 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: HP 88780 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: <990403153207.212000ed@trailing-edge.com>; from CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com on Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 03:32:07PM -0500 References: <990403153207.212000ed@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <19990404025947.12710@firepower> On Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 03:32:07PM -0500, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Yesterday four geeks (including myself) had tried to convince a HP 88780 > >9-track SCSI drive (cleverly disguised as Tandem 5160) to accept 6250 bpi > >tapes. It works OK at 1600 bpi, but refuses to admit it knows about 6250: > >"mt setdensity 3" on a Linux box results in "Incompatible media installed" > >error (when the tape written at 6250 bpi is loaded.) > > You shouldn't have to do the setdensity operation; the drive ought > to be able to read the 6250 BPI drive in any event. What happens > when you try to read the 6250 BPI tape? When tape is loaded, both "1600" and "6250" are highlighted on front panel. "mt status" then reports current density of 1600 bpi. Attempts to set any density other than 2 fail with sense key "Illegal Request" and additional sense 0x3000 "Incompatible media installed". Attempts to read data fail with sense key "Medium error" and same additional sense. -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 3 15:45:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Apr 3, 99 12:22:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1811 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990403/39a64b3f/attachment.ksh From emu at ecubics.com Sat Apr 3 16:16:20 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: first DEC machine Message-ID: <19990403221517.AAA21160@1Cust178.tnt19.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi r, ---------- > From: R. Stricklin (kjaeros) > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: first DEC machine > Date: Saturday, April 03, 1999 8:55 AM > I'm beginning to think that there should be a card to plug into the two 40 > or so pin headers, and that this card is what actually provides the SPX > graphics the machine supposedly had. It's not there. YES ! That should be a good idea. I tried this on my box, removed the color option and i got the same LED configuration. But don't forget : without the color option, you still have a monochrome workstation. Only problem is, if you don't get the color option, you need a different cable for the monitor. (the monochrome signal is not simply on the green one, would be to simple ;-)) So you have the BC19S cable which is the cable for the color option, in the monochrome case, you need the BC19P cable. cheers, emanuel From dann at greycat.com Sat Apr 3 16:12:48 1999 From: dann at greycat.com (Dann Lunsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: New arrivals to the Vintage Computer Festival Archives! References: <199904031657.IAA27070@mxu3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <37069260.773EF919@greycat.com> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > They've gotten bent and misaligned during the journey this thing took > from > > General Electric's Nuclear Division to my warehouse. > > Uh... Doesn't glow in the dark does it? "Fresh from the Nuclear industry, A real hot number just for you; It glows in the dark a little, So it makes a dandy night light, too!" ---Uncle Ernie's Used Computers Babbage's Birthday Bargain Bash..( can't find the tape now, durnit, so I can't give the author credit. Sorry 'bout that) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 3 16:41:11 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: New arrivals to the Vintage Computer Festival Archives! In-Reply-To: <37069260.773EF919@greycat.com> References: <199904031657.IAA27070@mxu3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19990403144012.00b1bcd0@mcmanis.com> Actually my uVaxen came from GE Nuke Tech as well. These guys in San Jose were into building the systems that run reactors, not near reactors themselves. I'm suprised Sam found some cards since any "media" on the uVaxen was removed. --Chuck From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Apr 3 16:36:14 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: HP 88780 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: <19990404002327.24210@firepower> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990403143614.0095f8a0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 00:23 04-04-1999 +0300, you wrote: >The problem is: no docs. By playing with front panel buttons, we >discovered lots of interesting knobs to turn (CONF 40..199), but weren't >inclined to try them all. What CONF will allow 6250 bpi density to be >used? Or is it permanently disabled by Tandem-customized firmware? You may have custom firmware. I know my own 88780 can do 6250 no problem. If you get into a bind, and can't deal with it any other way, let me know and I'll see if I can make images of the generic firmware EPROMs in my own unit and E-attach them to you. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 3 16:43:51 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990403144216.00b0d490@mcmanis.com> Hmm, if the RLV11's go into a ABCD backplane, and the BA11 is such a backplane (18 bit all 9 slots have CD connected) could you plug a backplane into the BA11 using one of those extender ables (two dual connectors on each end) ? --Chuck From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Apr 3 16:43:20 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RL02->11/73 more info Message-ID: Thanks to Tim, Jerome and Tony D. so far. I have more info after dragging the little puter out of it's rack. The backplane is third-party, not DEC, and has integral termination (no terminator card per se.) It has 8 quad-height slots. 1A-B M8192YB 1C-D MTI MXV22 (RX11 clone) 2A-B MTI MLV11M HD cont. 2C-D ?? 306 BootRoms etc. 3A-B M8043 quad SLU (console) 3C-D blank 4A-B Camintonn MLV11-J 4x SLU 4C-D blank 5A-B blank 5C-D blank (was Pertec VRG-Q) 6A-B Camintonn 256KW MOS [4164] 6C-D blank 7A-B blank 7C-D blank 8A-B blank 8C-D blank The HD is a Rodime and boots RT11SJ Ver 5.02 The RX02 is a single Mitsubishi 1/2 height 8". The system boots and runs as it is above. LP and LQ are on the second (3rd party) SLU, and the RT11 complains on boot if it's taken out. SHOW DEV shows TT; LD; DL; DY; LP; LQ; NL: VM; and XL. Question: Is the RLV11 appropriate and if so, which slots do they go in? Thanks again for everyone's help Cheerz John From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 3 16:45:56 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? Message-ID: <990403174556.212000fe@trailing-edge.com> >Hmm, if the RLV11's go into a ABCD backplane, and the BA11 is such a >backplane (18 bit all 9 slots have CD connected) could you plug a backplane >into the BA11 using one of those extender ables (two dual connectors on >each end) ? It's not exactly clear to me what you're asking, Chuck. If you're asking a general backplane expansion question, the answer is probably contained in Micronote 29, *Q-bus Expansion Concepts*, available over the web from http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/micronotes/ Only the AB slots are continued between backplanes, not the CD slots, in any conventional configuration. Note that there are both 18-bit and 22-bit bus cable-cards; the M9400/01 series are 18-bits, and the M9404/05 series are 22-bits. For more information on 22-bit vs 18-bit options, see Micronote 5, *Q22 Compatible Options*. According to Micronote 5, not only does the RLV11 pay attention only to the low 18 bits, it also uses backplanes pins BC1 and BD1 for purposes other than BDAL18 and BDAL19, so other things are likely to break if its plugged into a 22-bit backplane. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 3 16:50:39 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RL02->11/73 more info Message-ID: <990403175039.212000fe@trailing-edge.com> > The backplane is third-party, not DEC, and has integral >termination (no terminator card per se.) It has 8 quad-height slots. > > 1A-B M8192YB 1C-D MTI MXV22 (RX11 clone) > 2A-B MTI MLV11M HD cont. 2C-D ?? 306 BootRoms etc. > 3A-B M8043 quad SLU (console) 3C-D blank > 4A-B Camintonn MLV11-J 4x SLU 4C-D blank > 5A-B blank 5C-D blank (was Pertec VRG-Q) > 6A-B Camintonn 256KW MOS [4164] 6C-D blank > 7A-B blank 7C-D blank > 8A-B blank 8C-D blank > Question: Is the RLV11 appropriate and if so, which slots do they >go in? Not appropriate - you have no CD slots at all in this backplane. It looks like it's either a serpentine or zig-zag ABAB layout. Is this a Sigma box/backplane, by any chance? If so, it probably has a big yellow warning sticker inside telling you that if you plug in anything that expects to use the CD slots for its own purposes, you'll end up letting the magic smoke out (or something to that effect.) Move the cards to a more conventional DEC backplane and you can probably use the RLV11 just fine. Alternatively you could just go out and spend the bucks for a RLV12 (they were only about $150 a few years back.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Apr 3 16:57:45 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... In-Reply-To: <199904032144.PAA27778@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <000001be7e25$6307d520$80701fd1@5x86jk> Thanks but I already shop at the U of MN and most of the really neat old stuff is gone, trashed. For awhile you could get some really old collectable items from there it's just tons of Mac SE's, ci's, II's and the like and already have my fill of those. On my next visit I will be of the look out for you there. John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Lawrence LeMay > Sent: Saturday, April 03, 1999 3:45 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Apple stuff.... > > > > > > > > >Geez! Trade em some more modern hardware for what you want/need. I've > > > >been giving away lots of Mac IICi's for the last 2 years now, since > > > >the university here keeps throwing em away. Another department here > > > >has been trying to sell mac IICi's for $15 each, and it > doesnt look like > > > >they are selling em at that price. > > > > > > > Where are you located? I wouldn't mind getting one of those Macs. My > > > church has also been looking for a couple old Macs for their education > > > center, since there's a Mac guru that goes to my church > (anyone need System > > > 7.5 or System 7.5.x updates??) > > > > Actually, here is a URL for the campus computer repair services. They've > started a program where they will come pickup junk computer hardware on > campus for free, which they then turn around and attempt to sell. You > can see some of whats available on the web: > http://www.umn.edu/crs Of course, i'm sure they dont ship items, but if you're in the minneapolis area, or know someone here and are desperate for something, then something might be arranged. of course, John Keys might be making a beeline to buy all this stuff up already ;) -Lawrence LeMay From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Apr 3 17:12:29 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... In-Reply-To: <01be7e15$2ac7c220$7b8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <000101be7e27$71fd42c0$80701fd1@5x86jk> I see them a lot here for around $2, if you me to pick up one for you and will by the postage and return $2 plus tax to me I will ship it to you. John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Jason Willgruber > Sent: Saturday, April 03, 1999 3:02 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Apple stuff.... > > > Does anyone have (or know where to get) an old (b/w) Apple ImageWriter > printer for under $20? > I also need a cable to connect an Apple //c to a printer. > > ThAnX, > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > > > From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Apr 3 17:13:06 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RL02->11/73 more info In-Reply-To: <990403175039.212000fe@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > The backplane is third-party, not DEC, and has integral > > Not appropriate - you have no CD slots at all in this backplane. It > looks like it's either a serpentine or zig-zag ABAB layout. > > Is this a Sigma box/backplane, by any chance? If so, it probably > has a big yellow warning sticker inside telling you that if you plug > in anything that expects to use the CD slots for its own purposes, > you'll end up letting the magic smoke out (or something to that > effect.) It is in fact a Sigma backplane, tho it lacks the friendly Placard of Impending Doom. > > Move the cards to a more conventional DEC backplane and you > can probably use the RLV11 just fine. I have three Sigmas... but 2 DEC 11/23 chassis... [BA11-N] hmmm. >Alternatively you could just go out and spend the bucks for a RLV12 (they were only about $150 a few years back.) That's probably do-able, or: Perhaps someone wants to trade for an RLV12? Boards? Diskpacks? Stuff? Thanks Tim. I'm going back to the 11/44 now. On second thought, I've got this PR1ME system yet to be awakened.... no wait, the couch is still entombed in RL02 packs and books and magazines and... ooops, time for my Nap. Yawwwnnn.. Cheerz John PS: ISDN line back in svc after 37 hours O/A. Sigh... From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Apr 3 17:59:05 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: PC Magazine, LA120, PDP-11/34 Message-ID: <3706AB49.D80F4668@idirect.com> I have a large number of PC Magazine from 1988 to 1994 and they must go. Also, 2 * LA120 working before last stored about 2 years ago Also a PDP-11/34 was working when I received it about 6 months ago. Also, a few cabinets that hold the RL02 drives. I will probably have to let go of the RL02 drives as well, but not for about a year. This stuff is too heavy to ship and I don't have the facility to box it in any case. Local Pickup ONLY - Toronto. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Apr 3 18:04:45 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... In-Reply-To: <01be7e15$2ac7c220$7b8ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Apr 03, 1999 01:01:38 PM Message-ID: <199904040004.RAA19296@calico.litterbox.com> > > Does anyone have (or know where to get) an old (b/w) Apple ImageWriter > printer for under $20? > I also need a cable to connect an Apple //c to a printer. > > ThAnX, > -- I have one, and will sell it to you cheaper than 20 bucks US, but shipping is going to be expensive. It's a heavy beast. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 3 18:47:23 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: XCOMP STS HDC Message-ID: <000701be7e34$b4b65540$0100c0a8@fuj03> Has anyone seen or managed to get hold of a CP/M 2.2 driver for the XCOMP STS Hard Disk Controller. I've got this controller, and have decided, tentatively, to use it in hooking up one of my antique 8" Shugart hard disks. It handles only one drive and that's what fits in the box, concurrently with an 8" floppy drive. If anyone has machine readables of this stuff, I'd really appreciate a copy. Dick From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 3 19:19:20 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <199904040119.AA17612@world.std.com> 11/73? Message-ID: <199904040119.AA17682@world.std.com> < Wait... will RLV11s go in the 11/44??? That would be major cool, 11/73? Message-ID: <199904040119.AA17760@world.std.com> 53 where the RQDX1 only knows the RD50->52. The later RQDX3 (dual width rhater than quad) required the reformatted drives as it's slightly differnt format. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 3 19:20:02 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? Message-ID: <199904040120.AA17841@world.std.com> 11/73 more info Message-ID: <199904040120.AA17942@world.std.com> < The RX02 is a single Mitsubishi 1/2 height 8". It's not an RX02 but one of the workalikes, RX02 (DEC) are control data with DEC boards and are very full height. < Question: Is the RLV11 appropriate and if so, which slots do they 11/73 more info Message-ID: <199904040120.AA18005@world.std.com> < I have three Sigmas... but 2 DEC 11/23 chassis... [BA11-N] hmmm. BA11N is the box you want to use a RLV11 in! Pop that puppy in with a 11/23 (m8189) and your cooking. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 3 19:44:00 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <000e01be7e3c$9d353500$0100c0a8@fuj03> What might be fun would be an S-100 card to serve as an interface to a Monochrome/Hercules equivalent card and an IBM-style keyboard, since these can be had complete with the rest of the computer for $5 at nearly any thrift store. That would save the hassle of having an extra keyboard and monitor for your "extra" PC. . . . . you know, the one you stick strange cards in in order to see if they cause the system to "HCF" (Halt and Catch Fire). One of those little switch boxes would serve just fine. The 8.0 MHz Z80 wouldn't be sufficient to drive a VGA, so no need for anything fancy. It could even support two short ISA cards. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 03, 1999 6:26 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... > >At keyboards can be used as well as they are similar (not the same). You'll >have to make a interface as the serial is not compatable with UARTs, also >you will have to convert the key down/Key up codes to something more human. > > >An acceptable bus is ISA-8bit and there are plenty of FDC, VIDEO, HDC cards >for that bus that could easily interface to z80. > > >Same comment, one proviso, if your doing over 256k consider DRAM and MMU. >a good article for that is at the TCJ site. > ><[For the hardware wizards here : Yes you can homebrew with DRAM - I've > >For a z80 system of 64 or 128k static is far easier. Also 128kx8 parts are >cheap so even 256k or 512k ram systems are modest. > >Allison > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 3 19:57:05 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I know that Zane has successfully attached RL02s to his 11/73, and >I wanna do that, too... I've done it useing a RLV12 board set though. As far as I know it can't be done with the RLV11 you have. At least I was given to understand that if you try you'll let out the magic smoke. I've attached RL01's and RL02's to my SMS-1000 (PDP-11/73), PDP-11/73 (home built in a MicroVAX BA123 from mostly DEC parts using a /23+ instead of the /73 so I could boot the system), and a VAXstation II/RC. I'd love to get more controllers, as it is I have to shift the controller to which ever system I want to use the drives with. If you're wanting to boot off of RL02's then remember that you'll want to have something with boot roms that support the drives. The only thing I have that does is a /23+ > The 11/73 has an RQDX2 and one RX02 8"... tell me how much more >info to provide and I'll do that. I'm going to try to install the >boards, but the little backplane is stuffed and I need to re-arrange >some things. Huh? Wrong controller for a RX02. > Wait... will RLV11s go in the 11/44??? That would be major cool, >as well... Nope, Q-Bus. > I need so much more doc than I have here right now, and my ISDN >line is down (thanks a bazillion, GTE) so surfing the web's a >pain... waah waaaahh wahh whiney luser lart lart lart. Isn't GTE fun :^( I hate it when they've got my ADSL down! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 3 19:51:27 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <990403205127.212000fe@trailing-edge.com> >What might be fun would be an S-100 card to serve as an interface to a >Monochrome/Hercules equivalent card and an IBM-style keyboard Compupro did a similart thing over a decade ago ... it's called the "PC Video" S-100 card. >thrift store. That would save the hassle of having an extra keyboard and >monitor for your "extra" PC. I dunno - to me the most useful possible console interface is a serial port. I can hook a terminal up, I can hook a VAX up, I can hook a PC-clone up, etc. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Apr 3 19:39:46 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: HP 88780 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: Sergey Svishchev's message of Sun, 4 Apr 1999 02:59:47 +0400 References: <990403153207.212000ed@trailing-edge.com> <19990404025947.12710@firepower> Message-ID: <199904040139.RAA19949@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sergey Svishchev wrote: > When tape is loaded, both "1600" and "6250" are highlighted on front panel. Looking in the 7979A/7980A/7980XC users's guide (those are other model numbers for the HP drive), I see that means the drive thinks that a "tape of unknown density" has been loaded. That's different than a blank tape, for which it would leave all the density lights off. -Frank McConnell From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Apr 3 20:26:36 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RL02->11/73 more info In-Reply-To: <199904040120.AA18005@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > < I have three Sigmas... but 2 DEC 11/23 chassis... [BA11-N] hmmm. > > BA11N is the box you want to use a RLV11 in! Pop that puppy in with a > 11/23 (m8189) and your cooking. This I can do... electromechanically. I think I know the answer to the next question, but For the Record: I flesh out an 11/23, attach the RLV11/RL02s, put in one of the several OSes that seem to be bootable, and press the big "Go" button. Now.... Doesn't the OS on the disk have to be made specific to the processing environment it is living in? Like, sysgenned for instance?? Excuse what might be an obvious d'oh! but this is how I learn.. Also I think it is most cool that you folks are taking time to help get these neat old systems and thier software up and flying again. Cheerz John From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 3 21:14:07 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RL02->11/73 more info Message-ID: <990403221407.212000fe@trailing-edge.com> > This I can do... electromechanically. I think I know the answer >to the next question, but For the Record: > > I flesh out an 11/23, attach the RLV11/RL02s, put in one of the >several OSes that seem to be bootable, and press the big "Go" >button. Now.... > > Doesn't the OS on the disk have to be made specific to the >processing environment it is living in? Like, sysgenned for instance?? "It depends". RT-11 is pretty versatile, and not awfully picky about being booted on a particular type of processor. (With the exception, oh, of trying to boot RT11XM on a 11/03...!) RSX-11M and M+ will complain if a peripheral specified in the SYSGEN isn't there in the boot process, but generally the base OS will come up all the way. RSTS/E can be very picky about what hardware it'll work on, but as long as you stick to the autoconfigure rules you're OK. Many of the PDP-11 Unices can be quite particular, especially if you're booting a non-Generic kernel. All of the above *can* be made to break on anything except a particular hardware configuration, but generally this takes a bit more effort. One thing you'll have to realize is that your current hard drive controller is emulating a RL02, and you won't be able to use it along with a "real" RL02 unless you do a SYSGEN or otherwise (there are some shortcuts) put a second DL:-type driver into the system. You'll also have to set one piece of hardware and one of the drivers to different CSR's and vectors. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 3 21:14:55 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... Message-ID: <199904040314.AA10490@world.std.com> Status report: I've rebuilt the power supply. This was done after the following steps: Open PS and remove the bad rectifer bridge and shorted 24,000MFd cap. Vacuum out all the decomposed foam. Put boards (all but core) and regulator board in dishwasher and dried them in the oven. Reassembled and tested power supply in stages. Working. Replaced three fans. No I have the system up and running save for one bit that is stuck (when displaying MD). The display bit is stuck as test programs run verifying it's a front pannel problem. It's bit 1 and only with the switch in the MD position. So far this is good success considering the heaviest test gear used is a multimeter. Also that I don't have a print set for 8E. Allison From mbg at world.std.com Sat Apr 3 21:28:00 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? Message-ID: <199904040328.AA16941@world.std.com> > Wait... will RLV11s go in the 11/44??? That would be major cool, >as well... No, RLV is for Qbus... generally, if you find an option which has a Q or V as the third letter in the option name, it is for Qbus. For example, dlV, dhV, dhQ, dzV, dzQ, vsV, etc... Some options for UNIBUS have a U as the second or third of the option name... dhU, dU. But generally, the UNIBUS options are two-character names, DL, DH, DZ, VT, etc... As always, there are exceptions, like DUP, DMC, DMR... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sat Apr 3 21:28:40 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? Message-ID: <199904040328.AA17308@world.std.com> Sorry, should have completed that message... the option you need for UNIBUS to run the RL drives is an RL11. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sat Apr 3 21:36:00 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RL02->11/73 more info Message-ID: <199904040336.AA20985@world.std.com> > The backplane is third-party, not DEC, and has integral >termination (no terminator card per se.) It has 8 quad-height slots. > > 1A-B M8192YB 1C-D MTI MXV22 (RX11 clone) > 2A-B MTI MLV11M HD cont. 2C-D ?? 306 BootRoms etc. > 3A-B M8043 quad SLU (console) 3C-D blank > 4A-B Camintonn MLV11-J 4x SLU 4C-D blank > 5A-B blank 5C-D blank (was Pertec VRG-Q) > 6A-B Camintonn 256KW MOS [4164] 6C-D blank > 7A-B blank 7C-D blank > 8A-B blank 8C-D blank This is surely a strange configuration... the fact that there are individual boards in the CD side of things indicates that it is probably a Q-Q backplane, in which case you surely should NOT plug the RLV11 into it. But the confusuing thing is the fact that you ahve so many blank slots where one would expect a grant continuity card if it were Q-Q... "Is it a puzzlement..." Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sat Apr 3 21:38:45 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: PC Magazine, LA120, PDP-11/34 Message-ID: <199904040338.AA22464@world.std.com> Jerome Fine wrote: >Also, a few cabinets that hold the RL02 drives. I will >probably have to let go of the RL02 drives as well, but >not for about a year. > >This stuff is too heavy to ship and I don't have the facility >to box it in any case. Local Pickup ONLY - Toronto. Darn.. with the 11/34a I got recently, I sure could use an RL02 to put on it... Too bad it is local pickup only... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sat Apr 3 21:41:51 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RL02->11/73 more info Message-ID: <199904040341.AA24044@world.std.com> >BA11N is the box you want to use a RLV11 in! Pop that puppy in with a >11/23 (m8189) and your cooking. There are a couple of different backplanes which could be in a BA11-N box. Some are Q/Q and some are Q/CD... I've had BA11-N boxes with both. One of my 11/83 systems is in a BA11-N box with a Q22/Q22 backplane... So be careful, check the backplane type first... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From max82 at surfree.com Sat Apr 3 21:42:12 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! Message-ID: I've finally gotten around to reading a LISP book that I had bought months before, and I can see why people refer to LISP as a religious experience (I've seen that said at least twice). It's really a wonderful language. I wonder how it is worse than BASIC or Perl. Also, although I didn't really take the time to really understand smalltalk (Squeak is slow and unstable), I can see the beginnings of smalltalk in LISP. Wow. This thing really is pretty amazing. This should be taught in every computer programming course, along with PAL-8, C, and Perl. I am now certain that if a language is hard to learn (C++ comes to mind), there's something wrong with it :) --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From mbg at world.std.com Sat Apr 3 21:45:28 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? Message-ID: <199904040345.AA25733@world.std.com> >RT11 will run in more than 256k (mine has 2mb). The RLV11 however limits >you to 256k, though you could write your one handler... nah. It doesn't really limit RT-11... what it does do is require that any I/O transfers must occur entirely in the low 256kb of memory. This would require you to ensure that all programs which are going to do I/O to the device have their user buffers in the low 256kb of memory. As for writing your own handler... you could instead make modifications to the DL handler such that it 'trampolines' the data from a user buffer anywhere in memory to a system buffer (maybe in the handler) which is assured to be in the low 256kb, and do the transfer from there... That is a technique which other OSes have done to take care of the problem... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 3 21:47:19 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:44 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <199904040347.AA26639@world.std.com> 11/73? Message-ID: <199904040347.AA26710@world.std.com> 11/73 more info Message-ID: <199904040347.AA26807@world.std.com> < I flesh out an 11/23, attach the RLV11/RL02s, put in one of the References: <002401be7b41$a19a7ea0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <199904040357.NAA02555@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 20:06 31/03/99 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >IIRC the Altair (or is it the Imsai) frontpanel uses the CPU to do much >of the work and forces it to execute jump instructions, etc. > >The Intellec panel uses the CPU for almost nothing. It's all done in >hardware. Personnally I prefer that - it makes it easier to debug a >machine with CPU (or more likely CPU bus buffer) problems. This reminds me of the Intersil 6100 which had a special "front panel" mode designed to hold code and data to run the (presumably flashy) front panel. This got me to thinking (dangerous I know - I blame the very small Easter egg my diet allows :-) that an interesting project might be to construct a modern PDP8-E (or -F) using modern hardware (I guess the only difficult bit would be getting a 6100). I did the design/layout/prototype of a 6100 CPU board about a 100 years ago (OK, 23) and don't recall any real problems. I guess though the real cost will be the front panel and metal work.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Apr 3 22:01:34 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <199904040314.AA10490@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 3, 99 10:14:55 pm Message-ID: <199904040401.UAA00329@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Allison: > So far this is good success considering the heaviest test gear used is a > multimeter. Also that I don't have a print set for 8E. Great progress! The stuck bit won't be hard to find/fix. I had a couple of bad TTL chips when debugging the 8/f here, they were easy to find. Similar problem (always-off bit in certain I/O operations). Let us know how your core plane works! Schematics and other info's on highgate (when you get time to download the viewer!). Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sat Apr 3 22:03:16 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Floor tiles In-Reply-To: References: <199903312102.XAA19441@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199904040403.OAA02652@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> On Wed, 31 Mar 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > YOu are right, but it is still a doubble floor tile - The lower side is > typical metal coated to reduce (radio) noise, transmited from the large > antennas ...err... cables below :) - and floor tiles wit carpet tiles > atop are usual for 'high quality' computer rooms - don't forget, banks, > insurence companies and similar sites have a standard to maintain... Well my computer room at work was originally designed to house our DECsystem-10 (long departed) and had red carpeted floor tiles (I assume to contrast against the blue of the -10) and the bright orange/yellow chairs (the '70s have a lot to answer for, along with my boss who chose the colours). The carpet was removed sometime later and replaced with vynal tiles as DEC FS claimed the dust from the carpets was causing head crashes on the RP05s Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 3 22:17:30 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: RL02->11/73 more info In-Reply-To: References: <199904040120.AA18005@world.std.com> Message-ID: > Doesn't the OS on the disk have to be made specific to the >processing environment it is living in? Like, sysgenned for instance?? It depends on how _wierd_ your environment is. I've done several RT-11 SYSGEN's, trying to get everything I want working to work (still don't have TCP/IP running, been to busy with OpenVMS). On the other hand the copy of RSX-11M I'm running was SYSGENed on another system I've got that is now in pieces, and as such complains about some missing controllers. One of these days I'm going to have to get M+ installed, and when I do that I'll have to do a SYSGEN. > Also I think it is most cool that you folks are taking time to >help get these neat old systems and thier software up and flying again. Well, I know it's been a learning experience for more than just you. :^) Since I now realize I was partially misinformed about the RLV11, not that in my case it matters since I'll be leaving it in the system it's in, and I've only got one. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Apr 3 22:12:33 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 3, 99 10:42:12 pm Message-ID: <199904040412.UAA09246@saul4.u.washington.edu> > I've finally gotten around to reading a LISP book that I had bought months > before, and I can see why people refer to LISP as a religious experience > (I've seen that said at least twice). It's really a wonderful language. I > wonder how it is worse than BASIC or Perl. Also, although I didn't really > take the time to really understand smalltalk (Squeak is slow and > unstable), I can see the beginnings of smalltalk in LISP. Wow. This thing > really is pretty amazing. This should be taught in every computer > programming course, along with PAL-8, C, and Perl. I am now certain that > if a language is hard to learn (C++ comes to mind), there's something > wrong with it :) Just think -- LISP is one of the oldest high-level computer languages ever, and that it's still in use all the time in a form which is very similar to versions that were written about forty years ago! There is probably a good reason for that. (Other old computer languages still in use are FORTRAN and COBOL, but I don't think the reasons for using them are so good.) I wouldn't say LISP is exactly the same; there are too many dialects and people have thought of too many clever changes in the syntax and the semantics. And even the original version on the IBM 7094 has a history that's more complex than you would think (at least, _I_ don't understand all the changes it went through). Also, Common LISP is orders of magnitude more complex than LISP 1.5. But in spite of those changes, LISP's essence has stayed the same. By the way, "Common LISP" is the answer to "how is LISP worse than BASIC or Perl?" :) It can be very complicated and unwieldy. I hope you'll try Squeak again, though. Are you using UNIX? You may find the MS-Windows and Mac versions more stable. Smalltalk's mechanism of message passing and the "everything is an object" philosophy give it a unique power. To add something on-topic... I've been playing with Bob Supnik's PDP-1 simulator, which comes with a version of LISP. Has anyone looked at this? I have some questions about the LISP code; I've also thought about extending the character set emulated by the simulator. -- Derek From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 3 22:23:48 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? In-Reply-To: <199904040347.AA26710@world.std.com> Message-ID: >I'e done it with both using the correct backplanes. As I remember the >SMS1000 is a bit strange in the boot deperatment. You can say that again!!! Though if you get into the right parts of the Boot ROMs there is some cool stuff. It is _VERY_ limited on what it will work with though, and I suspect there is some wierd stuff about the console port also. As a result I've stolen the CPU out of on of my two SMS-1000's for the Homebuilt/73. IIRC, the SMS-1000 is really wierd in how it works with the 5.25" floppy. I want to say that it expects to boot off the floppy thinking it's a RX02, but it's been months since I've messed with it, so I might be mistaken. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Apr 3 22:20:27 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: RL02->11/73 more info References: Message-ID: <3706E88B.9A26686E@idirect.com> >John Lawson wrote: > I flesh out an 11/23, attach the RLV11/RL02s, put in one of the > several OSes that seem to be bootable, and press the big "Go" > button. Now.... > > Doesn't the OS on the disk have to be made specific to the > processing environment it is living in? Like, sysgenned for instance?? Jerome Fine replies: I can only answer for RT-11 specifically. The DEC developers prior to 1980 (prior to V4.0) combined the monitor file with the device driver for a specific hardware device. Starting with V4.0 of RT-11 in 1980, every monitor file was able to use any of the many compatible device drivers on the system device. Naturally that sounds ambiguous. What I specifically mean is that the monitor file and the resident device driver were kept as two separate files. Thus any device driver could become the resident device driver if it is placed on the media for which it is the native device driver. Combine that with a monitor and certain other specific files and you have a minimum bootable RT-11 system. Under these conditions, the media can be booted via software (in DUP) from any other media. The secret of doing a hardware boot is that the device driver must be correctly written to allow a hardware boot and the correct boot programs must be placed in the boot locations on the media via the command: COPY/BOOT DEV:monitor.SYS DEV: where DEV is the name of the hardware device driver and monitor.SYS is the name of the monitor file. Since it makes no sense to have the boot programs for a different hardware device on the media for a different type of hardware, you can always be sure that if things were correctly set up, the boot programs on the media will always correspond. BUT, that is not a required situation. For example, if you copy an RL02 10 MByte image onto an RD51 10 MByte image (via COPY/DEVICE DL: DU:), you will also copy the RL02 boot programs onto the DU: media (the file structure will also be somewhat incorrect in that the same media size will now be on the DU:). Originally, the correct boot program was placed in the correct block of the media (block zero) via a: COPY/BOOT DL0:RT11FB.SYS DL0: and the RL02 hardware boot would correctly boot RT11FB. Now after you copy the complete DL0: image onto the RD51, then you can fix the file structure size situation by the command: SQUEEZE DU0: and then put the correct boot program into block zero by: COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0: NOTE that none of the files on either media will have changed. The only difference will be that you can now (if your boot ROMs allow - for an 11/73 they usually do) directly hardware boot either the DL0: or the DU0: The correct monitor file is combined with the correct device driver via the correct boot program in block zero placed there via the COPY/BOOT command. Please ask for some more explanations about RT-11 if you need more help. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 3 22:28:22 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Floor tiles In-Reply-To: <199904040403.OAA02652@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> References: <199903312102.XAA19441@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: >Well my computer room at work was originally designed to house our >DECsystem-10 (long departed) and had red carpeted floor tiles (I assume to >contrast against the blue of the -10) and the bright orange/yellow chairs >(the '70s have a lot to answer for, along with my boss who chose the >colours). The carpet was removed sometime later and replaced with vynal >tiles as DEC FS claimed the dust from the carpets was causing head crashes >on the RP05s The Honeywell DPS-8 I worked on from 1990-93 had red carpeted floor tiles also. They'd probably had the same tiles since the early 70's. That was one _EVIL_ looking tile puller :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 3 22:31:17 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <199904040412.UAA09246@saul4.u.washington.edu> References: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 3, 99 10:42:12 pm Message-ID: >I hope you'll try Squeak again, though. Are you using UNIX? You may find >the MS-Windows and Mac versions more stable. Smalltalk's mechanism of >message passing and the "everything is an object" philosophy give it a >unique power. Where do you find "Squeak"? This is a Smalltalk-ish language from Disney isn't it? I seem to recall hearing about it roughly a year ago. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From max82 at surfree.com Sat Apr 3 22:27:08 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <199904040412.UAA09246@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: >I hope you'll try Squeak again, though. Are you using UNIX? You may find >the MS-Windows and Mac versions more stable. Smalltalk's mechanism of >message passing and the "everything is an object" philosophy give it a >unique power. I was using the Windows 95 version, and it was constantly swapping. I have 16 megs RAM, but I hardly think it should take that much. Is there a GNU smalltalk? Is it possible to get a PC-comptaible version of the type of Smalltalk used for the Alto? It seems that in LISP, everything is an object too, BTW. What I found really amazing is that a name can have a function, a list, and a list of properties associated with it. And, of course, how simple it is from a low-level point of view. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Apr 3 23:18:31 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 3, 99 11:27:08 pm Message-ID: <199904040518.VAA23842@saul7.u.washington.edu> > On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > >I hope you'll try Squeak again, though. Are you using UNIX? You may find > >the MS-Windows and Mac versions more stable. Smalltalk's mechanism of > >message passing and the "everything is an object" philosophy give it a > >unique power. > > I was using the Windows 95 version, and it was constantly swapping. I have > 16 megs RAM, but I hardly think it should take that much. Is there a GNU > smalltalk? Is it possible to get a PC-comptaible version of the type of > Smalltalk used for the Alto? I thought you meant it was crashing. It may well use up your 16 megs; Smalltalk tends to be memory-hungry. See if there's a command-line option to set the amount of memory used by the virtual machine. As I understand it, the VM can easily _increase_ the amount of memory it uses, but _decreasing_ isn't so easy. So download a fresh copy of the image file and then try tweaking the memory sizes. You can actually decrease the memory used by the image. I think you have to use the system tracer. (That's a really slick tool that goes all the way back to the original distribution. It can analyze your image; it can act as a "super garbage collector" and even remove objects completely; if you write enough extra code you can even use it to change the image in arbitrary ways. For example, you may have changed some internal detail of the VM, like the way pointers are stored. Therefore you'll need to change all the pointers in the image. That's the sort of thing the system tracer is good for.) Squeak is a direct descendant of the Alto's Smalltalk. Quite a bit of the original Xerox code seems to be in there (you can tell if you look) though there's some new code (e.g., for color) and some of the old code is gone (e.g., some classes which let you write simulations). The virtual machine which runs the Smalltalk bytecodes is completely rewritten. Apple was one of the original licensees of the Smalltalk-80 project (along with Tektronix, HP, and DEC); they had an experimental version of Smalltalk running on the Mac and/or Lisa. I suspect Squeak happened when they dusted off their old work. Unfortunately, you could still call Squeak "impure" (because of the changes). I don't know of anything more pure, or of anything that can simulate the NON-Smalltalk things the Alto did. > It seems that in LISP, everything is an object too, BTW. What I found > really amazing is that a name can have a function, a list, and a list of > properties associated with it. And, of course, how simple it is from a > low-level point of view. Well, I wouldn't say LISP has as much of an idea of "object" as Smalltalk. However, you can add objects (like CLOS does). But the idea that _is_ there is very widespread. The low-level simplicity is one of the reasons for LISP's popularity, I think. Oddly, IIRC the simple syntax is an accident. Originally, there were two formats for LISP code: - S-expressions (symbolic expressions, which are just lists), - M-expressions (meta-expressions, which look a bit more like a block-structured language). I think M-expressions were invnented even while LISP existed only on paper. The first LISP program could only handle S-expressions, though, and the plans to have the computer understand M-expressions basically died out. Actually, you might say there were three formats for LISP code -- some old versions of LISP, including the original IBM one, would represent this: (f x y z...) f is a function, x y z... arguments by this: f (x y z...) or possibly this (I'm confused about the details): f ((x y z...)) but only at the top-level read/eval/print loop. That syntax is useful for simple functions but painful for complicated ones. It's inconsistent too. It died out. As I said, there have been a number of changes like that. I just thought you might like to know that piece of trivia. :) -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Apr 3 23:21:12 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 3, 99 08:31:17 pm Message-ID: <199904040521.VAA23175@saul7.u.washington.edu> > Where do you find "Squeak"? This is a Smalltalk-ish language from Disney > isn't it? I seem to recall hearing about it roughly a year ago. It's not Smalltalk-ish, it IS Smalltalk. As I said to Max, it was written at Apple. They often abandon projects... lucky for us Disney took it up. See http://www.create.ucsb.edu/squeak/ Also look at the page at UIUC which you can get to from UCSB. -- Derek From jruschme at exit109.com Sat Apr 3 23:25:50 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... In-Reply-To: <000001be7e25$6307d520$80701fd1@5x86jk> from "John R. Keys Jr." at "Apr 3, 99 04:57:45 pm" Message-ID: <199904040525.AAA00849@crobin.home.org> > Thanks but I already shop at the U of MN and most of the really neat old > stuff is gone, trashed. For awhile you could get some really old > collectable items from there it's just tons of Mac SE's, ci's, II's and the > like and already have my fill of those. On my next visit I will be of the > look out for you there. John John, Do they have any Mac accessories there? Specifically, I'm trying to find a Kinetics EtherSC SCSI Ethernet adapter. Could you keep you eyes open for one? Thanks... <<>> From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 3 23:45:17 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <001401be7e5e$545c18e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> memory mapping would be a mite silly, wouldn't it, given that the HERC uses 64K of refresh RAM. I'd say the way to do it is to use a strategy put forth by the guys who designed the 6545, the '65xx' version of the 6845. It had an update register which essentially allowed you to write an address to the chip and then send a stream of characters, kind of like the cursor addressing on a terminal. Some scheme like that would work even in the limited I/O space of a Z-80. Another option might be to bank the BIOS such that when it's writing to or reading from the video page, it has a space equal to the disk buffers, which works as a window in the display RAM. The refresh of the display would keep the entire video memory refreshed, while the banking scheme could minimize the memory consumption of the video device. The PC certainly has made for cheaper serial/parallel interfaces than we ever saw for the S-100. It's too bad there were never any truly general purpose parallel ports use commonly enough on the PC to make them cheap. It's only since the adoption of the 1284 standard that bidirectional I/O via the printer port has been practical. It's too bad there aren't i8255-equivalents which can drive something. The problem with my IMSAI PIO-6 is that it won't even drive an LED directly. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 03, 1999 8:54 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... > >They do exist! Hercules made cards for the s100 machines that ran DOS! > > >Why not? I'm currently planning to use ISA16 and herc video for a z280 >system. Z280 has a 16 bit bus mode. The only thing needed to support >herc using a z80 is a MMU to allow mapping the display out of the address >space so that you have room for CP/M. I've done some testing to verify >this will work. > > >More if you buffer the bus! > >Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 3 23:52:25 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <001901be7e5f$51757e40$0100c0a8@fuj03> Well . . . I did think one could get two short cards on one S-100. I did have something concrete in mind, too. If one inserts a wire-wrap 62 pin (8-bit ISA) connector into a DIN 41612 right-angle socket, such as what one finds on a VME wire-wrap board, but of opposite gender, (remembering that I once sold S-100 wire-wrap boards with a pattern certainly suitable for this purpose, and VME wire-wrap cards as well) one can, indeed, host two 8-bit ISA cards on a single s-100 board. This would certainly be cheap enough in most cases, to warrant such an effort. The software might get to be a problem, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 03, 1999 6:58 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... >>What might be fun would be an S-100 card to serve as an interface to a >>Monochrome/Hercules equivalent card and an IBM-style keyboard > >Compupro did a similart thing over a decade ago ... it's called the "PC Video" >S-100 card. > >>thrift store. That would save the hassle of having an extra keyboard and >>monitor for your "extra" PC. > >I dunno - to me the most useful possible console interface is a serial >port. I can hook a terminal up, I can hook a VAX up, I can hook a >PC-clone up, etc. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From hhacker at home.com Sun Apr 4 00:58:48 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! Message-ID: <097801be7e68$96f4d980$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> It is interesting to me that others view Lisp as a high level language. For my money, it is an assembly language for an abstract computer. Sure, it has much of the form of a high level language but, the simplicity of its minimal number of required operators makes it ideal as a machine language. As I recall, CAR, CDR, CONS, and four or five more operators is all that is necessary for a complete implementation. This is RISC processing if ever there is such a thing. Moreover, the fact that all things are handled as a single data type sure does imply an object point of view, however much that point of view is myopically constrained (that the objects are all lists!). The most interesting aspect of Lisp, for me, is that code can be constructed by the operation of a program, and thereupon caused to be executed. This is another parallel with machine languages. William R. Buckley From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Apr 4 01:28:16 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <097801be7e68$96f4d980$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> from "Buck Savage" at Apr 3, 99 10:58:48 pm Message-ID: <199904040728.XAA27239@saul1.u.washington.edu> > language. As I recall, CAR, CDR, CONS, and four or five more operators > is all that is necessary for a complete implementation. This is RISC > processing if ever there is such a thing. Moreover, the fact that all > things > are handled as a single data type sure does imply an object point of > view, however much that point of view is myopically constrained (that > the objects are all lists!). This is a very "pure" view of LISP. It's more or less the way I (and other computer-science people) might write LISP, but it's definitely NOT true of modern LISP programming. LISP has had non-list data types for quite a while, actually; I suspect they have become more important as "real-world" LISP implementations and code have become more common. > The most interesting aspect of Lisp, for me, is that code can be > constructed by the operation of a program, and thereupon caused to > be executed. This is another parallel with machine languages. Quite true. Of course, LISP is also compiled these days, and the compiler writer must account for the functional aspects of LISP (like the ability to construct programs at run-time). Writing a LISP compiler is not easy! -- Derek From hhacker at home.com Sun Apr 4 01:34:54 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! Message-ID: <098a01be7e6d$a2cb9aa0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Of course, LISP is also compiled these days... >-- Derek Not if it runs on a Lisp Machine! William R. Buckley From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Apr 4 01:39:10 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <098a01be7e6d$a2cb9aa0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> from "Buck Savage" at Apr 3, 99 11:34:54 pm Message-ID: <199904040739.XAA27928@saul1.u.washington.edu> > Not if it runs on a Lisp Machine! > > William R. Buckley If you have a LISP machine, I'd love to hear about it. Actually, I thought they had microcode or assmebly language. Therefore, they have a compiler to create the microcode or assembly language. It may not be well-documented (or advertised) but it's there. -- Derek From hhacker at home.com Sun Apr 4 01:54:41 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! Message-ID: <099101be7e70$65c81180$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> >Actually, I thought they had microcode or assmebly language. Therefore, >they have a compiler to create the microcode or assembly language. It may >not be well-documented (or advertised) but it's there. > >-- Derek This is a mistaken impression. Actually, microcode is not compiled. For any computer which is microprogrammed, there is a sequence of microinstructions which implements each executable statement of the computer. In the case of the Lisp machine (such as those built by Symbolics - like the 3600), the machine instructions are, in fact, the operators of Lisp. So, there is within the microcode of a List machine a sequence of microinstructions which implements directly the function of a Lisp operator, such as CAR. As it happens, it is easily possible for any of use to obtaine the so-called MacIvory, which is a Lisp machine that operates within the MacIntosh computer. It is a co-processor much like the i860 based board that I bought several years back from MicroWay. The i860 is a single chip implementation of the Cray-1, (you know, Harvard archetecture, and the like), and provides just about the same throughput as the Cray-1. An old high-school buddy of mine worked for Symbolics, and today does Lisp programming at Moffett Field for NASA Ames. He is quite well acquainted with the microcode of the 3600, and it is upon his instruction that I became equally familiar. William R. Buckley From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Apr 4 03:05:38 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <099101be7e70$65c81180$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> from "Buck Savage" at Apr 3, 99 11:54:41 pm Message-ID: <199904040805.AAA31820@saul7.u.washington.edu> > >Actually, I thought they had microcode or assmebly language. Therefore, > >they have a compiler to create the microcode or assembly language. It may > >not be well-documented (or advertised) but it's there. > This is a mistaken impression. Actually, microcode is not compiled. For > any computer which is microprogrammed, there is a sequence of > microinstructions which implements each executable statement of the > computer. In the case of the Lisp machine (such as those built by > Symbolics - like the 3600), the machine instructions are, in fact, the > operators of Lisp. So, there is within the microcode of a List machine > a sequence of microinstructions which implements directly the function > of a Lisp operator, such as CAR. I was unclear. I meant that the microcode/assembly language words _corresponding to a particular LISP program_ were created from that program and then executed. If you define a function (like the ever-popular factorial function) something has to be stored in memory as the definition; presumably it is some sort of primitive (as in not-easily-decomposed) machine language, and presumably there is a program that converts source text into object code. So wouldn't that converter be a compiler? I believe that a number of subtle details happen during the conversion process, so you couldn't even say the compiler is a simple compiler. -- Derek From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Sun Apr 4 03:25:06 1999 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: FW: Many older computer books, software manuals, and electronic data books (last chance moving sale) In-Reply-To: <371bde4e.25263337@news.silcom.com> References: <371bde4e.25263337@news.silcom.com> Message-ID: <370a21ae.85861432@smtp.jps.net> I don't know if this fellow has anything of interest or not, but the documentation hunters may want to contact him directly... -=-=- -=-=- On Sun, 04 Apr 1999 03:41:25 GMT, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc you wrote: >>From: Tiger@nospam_address.org (Tiger) >>Newsgroups: alt.marketplace.books,misc.books.technical,comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc,misc.forsale.computers.other.misc >>Subject: FS: Many older computer books, software manuals, and electronic data books (last chance moving sale) >>Message-ID: <371bde4e.25263337@news.silcom.com> >>X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 >>X-No-Archive: yes >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Lines: 56 >>Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 03:41:25 GMT >>NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.222.92 >>X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 923197029 207.71.222.92 (Sat, 03 Apr 1999 19:37:09 PST) >>NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 19:37:09 PST >>Organization: Avtel Communications >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!newsbox.grin.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in2.uu.net!WCG!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net alt.marketplace.books:777 misc.books.technical:28 comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc:95 misc.forsale.computers.other.misc:212 >> >>x-no-archive: yes >> >>I'M MOVING VERY SOON. If these items are not gone in a couple weeks they >>will be donated to charity, or I will keep and pay to move them. >> >>Please see the end of this message for my correct email address. >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>BOOKS - I have a couple hundred computer books, programming books, >>electronic data books, and technical books (a lot of reference books are for >>Apple and Amiga, such as the Addision-Wesley series) -- most are from the >>1980's. I also have a few math and physics textbooks. >> >>If someone were to buy all my books I'd probably sell most of them at an average >>price of $2-$3 each (less if you pick them up in person). There are a few, such >>as the Apple and Amiga development/technical books that I'd want more than >>$5 each. >> >>SOFTWARE MANUALS - a couple hundred manuals without the disks for things like >>Borland Turbo products, Microsoft products (C/C++, Visual Basic, FoxPro, etc), >>DBase III+ and IV, Autocad, etc. If someone were to buy all of these, I'd >>probably sell most of them at an average price of $1 each (less if you pick them >>up in person). >> >>Please look at my lists and feel free to ignore the prices and make reasonable >>offers. My main criteria are: I have to get enough money to make the transaction >>worth the effort and the amount needs to be reasonably close to what I think >>I'll get from my charitable donations. >> >>All of my lists are at: >> >>http://www.silcom.com/~tiger >> >>As I mentioned above, if you can come by Santa Barbara, California, and pick up >>a lot of stuff in person we'll work out a really good deal. You don't have to >>buy *everything* to get a great price but it needs to be a signficant amount. >>I'm tired of wasting my time on small transactions. Anything under $50 is small >>in my eyes and barely worth the trouble. I don't start to get too interested >>until the amount exceeds $100. I have a total of about 500 books to thin out >>in less than 2 weeks (all deals need to be worked out by the end of next week). >>Selling a few books here and there doesn't make a dent. I want someone to >>clean me out of most of my books! Aren't there any computer book museum >>collectors? >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Send email to tiger@silWXYZcom.com - Remove WXYZ to reply. >> >>For other computer hardware, software, and books for Amiga, Apple, Atari, >>Commodore, IBM, Macintosh, and TI-99/4A please visit my web page at: >> http://www.silcom.com/~tiger >> >>I'm requesting a $20 minimum transaction (before shipping). Money orders >>are required because I no longer have time to wait for checks to clear. >> >>This will probably be the last time I post these items for sale. If you're >>interested in something, buy it now or never. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From hhacker at home.com Sun Apr 4 03:28:51 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! Message-ID: <09a701be7e75$2df30fd0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> >I was unclear. > >I meant that the microcode/assembly language words _corresponding to a >particular LISP program_ were created from that program and then executed. >If you define a function (like the ever-popular factorial function) >something has to be stored in memory as the definition; presumably it is >some sort of primitive (as in not-easily-decomposed) machine language, and >presumably there is a program that converts source text into object code. > >So wouldn't that converter be a compiler? I believe that a number of subtle >details happen during the conversion process, so you couldn't even say the >compiler is a simple compiler. > >-- Derek You were quite clear. The answer is no. Consider the instruction set of the x86. The MOV instruction is actually implemented as a small sequence of microinstructions. There is, in fact, no dedicated series of gates and other electronic aparatus which implements the operation of MOV. Instead, it is implemented as a series (or sequence) of smaller operations, such as LOAD REGISTER, ADD REGISTERS, etc. If you are not familiar with the processes of microprogramming, then you should become so. Microprograms are not stored in RAM. Instead, they are stored in ROM. Also, the only processors which today are founded upon the operation of dedicated electronics (that is, electronic circuits which implement fully and singly the operation of a machine instruction for a computer) are the RISC machines. This is why they are so bloody fast. All CISC machines are microprogrammed. For those who are aware of the operations of the HP 21MX processors, these are microprogrammed machines. As it happens, the user of such a computer can alter the microprogramming. This is the computer upon which I obtained my experience as a microprogrammer. I do not mean to say that the factorial function is microprogrammed. It is not. However, the operators CAR, CDR, CONS, etc. are implemented in microcode. Hence, there is no need for translation - they are executed directly. For confirmation of this, contact my friend, Chuck Fry at chucko@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov Now, it is true that the printed text of the program must be converted to the instruction set of the computer but, the process is like this. "CAR" corresponds to the instruction with byte code 0x01 "CDR" corresponds to the instruction with byte code 0x02 and so on. Of course, the byte values I give are only examples. The true translations are not known to me. However, each operator of the Lisp language will correspond to a single instruction code of the Lisp machine. This is a far cry from the result one usually obtains from a compiler. If a compiler were used by a Lisp machine, then the operation of CAR would involve the production of dozens of machine instructions, just as the call of a subroutine in C involves dozens of machine instructions. Heck, a simple addition in C results in an instruction sequence like MOV AX, address of data1 ADD AX, address of data2 MOV address of result, AX For the Lisp machine, CAR would result in an instruction like CAR address of source operand list, address of result operand list William R. Buckley From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 4 04:29:54 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? In-Reply-To: (message from John Lawson on Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:22:37 -0800 (PST)) References: Message-ID: <19990404092954.24644.qmail@brouhaha.com> John asks: > Wait... will RLV11s go in the 11/44??? That would be major cool, > as well... No, the RLV11 is for Qbus. You need a Unibus control for it. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 4 04:33:38 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: New arrivals to the Vintage Computer Festival Archives! In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990403144012.00b1bcd0@mcmanis.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Sat, 03 Apr 1999 14:41:11 -0800) References: <199904031657.IAA27070@mxu3.u.washington.edu> <4.1.19990403144012.00b1bcd0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <19990404093338.24660.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > Actually my uVaxen came from GE Nuke Tech as well. These guys in San Jose > were into building the systems that run reactors, not near reactors > themselves. The reactor components were manufactured in their Sunnyvale plant, if my information is correct. Of course, the reactors are actually assembled on site, so no radioactive material is involved at the factory. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Apr 4 04:39:04 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > To _read_ a ROM, you don't really need an EPROM programmer. No, I suppose I don't. The easiest home-baked solution for me would be using my VIC-1210 3K RAM Expander. IIRC, it has space for a couple of ROMs on the board, which I think were intended to the SuperExpander cartridge (is that the name? The one with the extended BASIC with graphics and sound commands). Two of the 2114 SRAMs are dead, so I have to mess with the thing anyway. I could install some ZIF sockets for the ROMs, and later when I get an EPROM burner, I could grab all the game images from the 'net and play them on genuine VIC hardware. One important question: Are ROM and EPROM pinouts standardized? Would a reader have to change what it's doing for different ROMs? I'm not sure how many address lines the VIC-1210 has hooked up to the ROM lines. > As regards commercial solutions, there are/were stand-alone EPROM > programmers. They have a little keypad to read/program the EPROM, etc. > Most of them have a serial port to link to a PC (or any other computer > for that matter), and they often upload/download intelhex files. That would be ideal. And I wouldn't have to use a PC, either. :) Does anyone know where to get something like this >today > Also, how would one go about reading or writing to an EPROM that is > > soldered to the printed circuit board? Is it possible to clip onto a chip > > from the top and have it work that way? I have some machines with > > unsocketed EPROMs, as strange as it sounds. > > Well, if you can tri-state (force to high impedance) the address line > drivers on the board (so the EPROM lines aren't being drive), then you can, > indeed, clip something on the chip. I did that on the RX02 drive, where > there's a signal shown on the printset specifically to tri-state the drivers. Ah. Well, that pretty much leaves out everything I want to do this with, because I don't have that kind of documentation. :/ > Otherwise you have to unsolder the chip and stick it into an EPROM > programmer. Unsoldering an irreplaceable chip is a little stressful at > first, but you get used to it ;-) Ugh! :) Obviously I'll put sockets in before replacing the chips so that this won't happen with the same machine twice. :) -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 4 04:50:17 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <099101be7e70$65c81180$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> (hhacker@home.com) References: <099101be7e70$65c81180$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: <19990404095017.24697.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Buck Savage" wrote: > Actually, microcode is not compiled. All the microcode I've ever written was compiled. Of course, it was compiled from special source languages defined for that explicit purpose. No one with any sense would write a non-trivial amount of microcode any other way. > The i860 is a single chip implementation of the Cray-1, No, it isn't. Don't believe all the marketing hype you read; those guys are paid to lie their asses off. The architecture isn't even *close* to that of the Cray-1. In particular, the i860 is not a vector processor. It is a primitive superscalar processor, with a lot of the pipeline exposed to the programmer. It is tough to write a good compiler for it. > and provides just about the same throughput as the Cray-1. Almost, for some things. But not for heavily vectorizable problems. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Apr 4 04:49:55 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Hard-sectored 5.25" disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > OK. That's cool! I've never owned a machine that needed hard sectored > > disks before. How exotic! ;) > > Now you have all the fun of finding suitable disks for it... I have been told, by someone who is not on this list, that AES supplied disks with the (default) OS on every disk, but that they did not supply a formatting utility. So even if I find the OS disks, I might still be stuck. :/ Didn't DEC do something like this with the Rainbow? > > > 4650 is a CRT controller IIRC. > > > > Yes, in case it was dead I pulled another 4650 off a PC video card and > > tried it out, but there was no change. > > The CRT controller is basically the timing chain for the video system and > not a lot more. It generates the video RAM addresses and the sync > signals. It's not common for that chip to die and produce a totally blank > screen, altough it's possible. The third ROM (actually an EPROM) in the system, and the empty ROM socket, are both quite close to the 4650 on the motherboard. I suppose this might contain the machine's character set? At any rate, I tried the other AES 7100 at the Salvation Army store, and it exhibits exactly the same behaviour, so I think it's quite likely that the machine is fine, but looking for the appropriate disks. > -tony -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Apr 4 05:03:15 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Hard-sectored 5.25" disks In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990328211141.2fbf9026@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > At 06:34 AM 3/28/99 -0500, Doug wrote: > > >Maybe next month I'll drag home something with an 8" drive. :) > > Doug, how far are you from British Columbia? Something over 2,000 miles. > I know where there's a Tektronix 4051 AND a 4052 up for sale. Both can use > optional 8" drives, I think they have drives but I'm not sure. I use some kind of Tektronix boxes at school, but I think they're just X terminals. Where do I look to find out more? (The university actually THREW OUT a bunch of Sun 3/50s (or were they 3/60s?) and I think some old SparcStations as well, but the Tektronix things stay put.) > I'm in Florida, so it's a mite too far for me to go get. I'm in Montreal, so ditto. > Joe -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From mikeford at netwiz.net Sun Apr 4 05:15:03 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... In-Reply-To: <01be7e15$2ac7c220$7b8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: >Does anyone have (or know where to get) an old (b/w) Apple ImageWriter >printer for under $20? >I also need a cable to connect an Apple //c to a printer. I bought a box full of Apple etc. cables recently, wait a couple days and I will sort out what I have and put it on my web page. http://www.netwiz.net/~mikeford/MacList.html From hhacker at home.com Sun Apr 4 05:22:58 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! Message-ID: <09b801be7e85$1d10c120$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> >"Buck Savage" wrote: >> Actually, microcode is not compiled. > >All the microcode I've ever written was compiled. Of course, it was >compiled from special source languages defined for that explicit purpose. >No one with any sense would write a non-trivial amount of microcode any >other way. > >> The i860 is a single chip implementation of the Cray-1, > >No, it isn't. Don't believe all the marketing hype you read; those guys are >paid to lie their asses off. The architecture isn't even *close* to that of >the Cray-1. In particular, the i860 is not a vector processor. It is a >primitive superscalar processor, with a lot of the pipeline exposed to the >programmer. It is tough to write a good compiler for it. > >> and provides just about the same throughput as the Cray-1. > >Almost, for some things. But not for heavily vectorizable problems. For the HP 21MX, microcode looks like assembly language, so any tool used for translation purposes is, by definition, not a compiler. It may be that compilable languages are defined for the purpose of providing for microcode but, that would mean that the sequence of microinstructions is generally not predictable from the source code of the program thus translated. Maximisation of processor throughput, and minimization of microinstruction count, is at least half the purpose of microprogramming. For such optimisation to be effected, on must necessarily write directly in microcode, either bit and byte streams, or coded as in assembly languages. In any case, the use of a language translator always results in a reduction of process throughput. Recall that microcode involves the establishment of timing signals at critical control points within electronic circuits and, the selection of data paths within those circuits. Given this fact, there seems little reason to leave the efficiency of microcode up to the accuracy of a language translator, which we all know to be generally less accurate that the results obtained by a skilled human programmer. I would be grateful to learn from you of the tools you used in the preparation of microcode. All of the work I did was in graduate school in the early 90's, and to date I have not seen a single job made available to a microprogrammer type. I would really love to have an opportunity to perform this kind of work as a job function. As for the i860, sure, it is not actually the equal of a Cray-1 but, the architecture is equal to that of the processor section of the Cray-1. The chief difference in capacity lies in the memory architecture and other support hardware, all of which is external to the processor. The literature with which I am familiar regarding the Cray-1 states that it can perform two multiplies, involving four different operand, at a single machine clock cycle, and this is exactly the capability of the i860. Further, I should like to know in what ways you deem the Cray-1 to differ from the i860, particularly with regard to the processor section. Have you actually used the i860? From mikeford at netwiz.net Sun Apr 4 05:27:17 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... In-Reply-To: <000001be7e25$6307d520$80701fd1@5x86jk> References: <199904032144.PAA27778@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >Thanks but I already shop at the U of MN and most of the really neat old >stuff is gone, trashed. For awhile you could get some really old >collectable items from there it's just tons of Mac SE's, ci's, II's and the >like and already have my fill of those. On my next visit I will be of the >look out for you there. John What sort of prices do they have on the SE/ci/II series type macs? (curiousity, not aquisiousity). From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Apr 4 05:39:09 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: 4116's and other memory In-Reply-To: <000801be7a0d$a90393a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > In the event any of those reading this list are in truly desperate need of > 4116's to resuscitate you elderly computers, please let me know. Those in desperate need of 4116s can also take a look at: http://www.e-volve.net/~clay/DRAM.html I've tried this procedure and it worked for me. (I don't know about you, but I have fewer 4116s than I need, and lots of 4164s lying around.) > There should be no need for disfuguring an original board in order to make a > part foreign to its design work in place of what belongs there. You don't have to disfugure a board to convert a 4164 to work as a 4116. > Dick -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Apr 4 05:49:32 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Messed up Apple (clone) video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > Usually when it's cold, the display is a complete mess. As it warms up, > > the image becomes clear but in four parts. Each quarter (corner) of the > > screen is a mini-image of what should be displayed on the whole screen. > > Out of each group of four pixels of what would be displayed normally, each > > will be displayed in a different quadrant of the screen. > > Is the screen image perfectly locked in this 'mode'? And what happens in > the text display mode - do individual pixels from the characters get > separated, or what? The screen image does stabilize in the 'four quadrants' mode for a little while. And yes, the pixels of characters in the text mode do get separated. There's no difference between graphics and text modes as far as that's concerned. > My first thought is that it's a video timing or clock problem. It > doesn't sound like anything close to the video output. I'll try the freeze spray thing that you and someone else have suggested. > -tony -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Apr 4 06:00:49 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: 4116's and other memory In-Reply-To: <003401be7a3e$729ceb00$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Back in those days, Mostek was the leader in DRAM technology and the 41xx > number is essentially theirs, though other manufacturers used it as well. > The National numbers differed from this practice. Their equivalent was > the MM5290. I'll have to go back and verify all this, but I do believe > that they can safely be replaced with 4116's or their equivalent. Yup, this seems correct. I have some MM5290s and MM5298s that have been used in an Apple clone for a short period and seemed to work fine. Actually, I was using the Apple to test the RAM. I put the chips where I'd see the bottom half of their address range on the second high-res graphics screen. Some of the MM5298s had bad bits (permanently set or unset) but those parts are -4s so they may be too slow for the Apple hardware (not sure). All of the MM5298s I have (not very many) are -4 parts, and all of the MM5290s I have (even fewer) are -3. So speed might be the only difference between the part numbers. -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Apr 4 08:47:18 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? References: Message-ID: <37076D66.C07461F4@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >I'e done it with both using the correct backplanes. As I remember the > >SMS1000 is a bit strange in the boot deperatment. > You can say that again!!! Though if you get into the right parts of the > Boot ROMs there is some cool stuff. It is _VERY_ limited on what it will > work with though, and I suspect there is some wierd stuff about the console > port also. As a result I've stolen the CPU out of on of my two SMS-1000's > for the Homebuilt/73. Jerome Fine replies: I have one working (or at least it was about 3 years ago when it was last in active use) SMS-1000 backplane (and power supply) with built in hard disk drive (I can't remember the size - about 10 to 30 Megs). If I remember correctly, the backplane is only 5 quad ABAB slots which is OK for very limited things. But the design was far superior to the BA23, so I used it for a while. > IIRC, the SMS-1000 is really wierd in how it works with the 5.25" floppy. > I want to say that it expects to boot off the floppy thinking it's a RX02, > but it's been months since I've messed with it, so I might be mistaken. My box has a single 8" floppy which is DSDD in capacity for a total of 1976 blocks. The drive is also set up the detect SSDD floppy media as well as DSSD and SSSD media. BUT, the device type is for the MSCP emulation. AND the DSDD interface switches from side 1 to side 2 for each cylinder (or track since there is only one double-sided surface) within the firmware. Since this behaviour is outside the control of the device driver (MSCP is DU:), the use of DSDD media is quite a surprise as compared to the RX03 implementation on a DSD 880/30 which uses the same floppy media, but uses the whole first side of the media followed by the second side of the media as programmed within the DY(X).SYS software device driver in RT-11. If someone wants a further explanation because I did not explain things well enough, please ask. The key point I am making is that when I wanted to make a bootable media for the SSDD floppy, I was able to issue the command: COPY/BOOT:DU DY0:RT11XM.SYS DY0: when I had set up all the files on the RX02 floppy (DEC or DSD would not matter) prior to using the floppy to be bootable on the SMS-1000. I then copied a number of additional files onto a second floppy SSDD which I wanted to place on ONE DSDD floppy on the SMS-1000. After I booted the SMS-1000, I set up a VM: (memory disk in about 2 Mbytes of memory with 1976 blocks. I copied the first floppy SSDD onto the memory disk, did a SQUEEZE and a BOOT. That way, I could then insert the second SSDD floppy with the additional files from the RX02. I then copied these into the VM:, inserted a real DSDD 8" floppy and COPY/DEVICE VM0: DU1: which gave me an 8" DSDD floppy with 1976 blocks for the SMS-1000 which was bootable on that hardware and had most of the files I wanted for development and testing. Eventually, I backed up the hard drive onto floppy (I think it had RSX-11) and placed RT-11 on the hard disk. Eventually, I suspect I will bring the system back to life and play some more. It is almost identical in size to a BA23, but a little lighter and much easier access. If I add an ESDI controller, I can have 600 MBytes and still have 3 quad slots available with a dual 11/73, a dual 2 MBytes memory. Since the access is so simple, I can at various time add any number of boards. And with a 600 Mbyte ESDI hard drive that I can WRITE PROTECT and backup directly onto another 600 Mbyte hard drive (both on a PC power supply), there will be more than enough hard disk storage for RT-11 (the ESDI Sigma controller allows up to 4 drives). NOTE that I said play. With the Eratz-11 emulator running already at about 10 times the speed of a real DEC 11/73 on a high end Pentium III and only a change of the chip required to run at 20 times the speed (or even more), I doubt that the real DEC CPUs will be attractive much longer. Certainly, I will still keep a real DEC 11/73 CPU available to test things as an additional verification when I want to be absolutely sure, but I have yet to find ANY problems with the Eratz-11 emulator. As soon as I finish my tax returns and clean up a few other things, I want to make Y2K patches available for hobby use for V5.3 of RT-11. Is anyone interested? If you read this far into this e-mail, then you must be a PDP-11 user (addict like I am). I know a few of you like RT-11 as well, but I don't know how serious you feel about Y2K patches? Please respond (either on list or off - V5.3 was released in 1985 and qualifies under the 10 year rule). Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Apr 4 09:47:39 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... In-Reply-To: <199904040525.AAA00849@crobin.home.org> Message-ID: <000001be7eaa$1658a1c0$6c711fd1@5x86jk> Will do. John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of John Ruschmeyer > Sent: Saturday, April 03, 1999 11:26 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Apple stuff.... > > > > Thanks but I already shop at the U of MN and most of the really neat old > > stuff is gone, trashed. For awhile you could get some really old > > collectable items from there it's just tons of Mac SE's, ci's, > II's and the > > like and already have my fill of those. On my next visit I will > be of the > > look out for you there. John > > John, > > Do they have any Mac accessories there? Specifically, I'm trying to find > a Kinetics EtherSC SCSI Ethernet adapter. > > Could you keep you eyes open for one? > > Thanks... > <<>> > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Apr 4 09:55:34 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001be7eab$31132c00$6c711fd1@5x86jk> $5 to $15 plus tax without kb's and mice. most are loaded with software and all I have got there work fine. > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Mike Ford > Sent: Sunday, April 04, 1999 5:27 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: Apple stuff.... > > > >Thanks but I already shop at the U of MN and most of the really neat old > >stuff is gone, trashed. For awhile you could get some really old > >collectable items from there it's just tons of Mac SE's, ci's, > II's and the > >like and already have my fill of those. On my next visit I will be of the > >look out for you there. John > > What sort of prices do they have on the SE/ci/II series type macs? > (curiousity, not aquisiousity). > > > From max82 at surfree.com Sun Apr 4 09:42:34 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <097801be7e68$96f4d980$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, Buck Savage wrote: >my money, it is an assembly language for an abstract computer. Sure, it I've seen some people on this list refer to certain computers as 'LISP machines'. What is the meaning of that? Is that like UNIX is a 'C machine'? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From max82 at surfree.com Sun Apr 4 09:48:48 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <09a701be7e75$2df30fd0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Apr 1999, Buck Savage wrote: >not stored in RAM. Instead, they are stored in ROM. AFAIK, they are hard-coded into the CPU (except for PERQ and the like where they can be altered). ROM conjures up images of little socketed chips on the motherboard. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Apr 4 11:12:49 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: References: <097801be7e68$96f4d980$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990404091041.00a1f200@mcmanis.com> They are micro-coded to run LISP, sorta like the WD P-Engine machines run PASCAL. Some of the more famous ones came from LMI (Lisp Machine Inc) and ran in the MIT AI lab. Several people on the list own one or more (but they can be largish machines, like that stops anyone here :-) --Chuck At 10:42 AM 4/4/99 -0400, you wrote: >On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, Buck Savage wrote: > >>my money, it is an assembly language for an abstract computer. Sure, it > >I've seen some people on this list refer to certain computers as 'LISP >machines'. What is the meaning of that? Is that like UNIX is a 'C >machine'? > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Apr 4 11:10:54 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? Message-ID: <990404121054.212000fe@trailing-edge.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >I'e done it with both using the correct backplanes. As I remember the > >SMS1000 is a bit strange in the boot deperatment. Jerome Fine replies: >My box has a single 8" floppy which is DSDD in capacity for a total of >1976 blocks. The drive is also set up the detect SSDD floppy media >as well as DSSD and SSSD media. BUT, the device type is for the >MSCP emulation. AND the DSDD interface switches from side 1 to >side 2 for each cylinder (or track since there is only one double-sided >surface) within the firmware. Since this behaviour is outside the control >of the device driver (MSCP is DU:), the use of DSDD media is quite >a surprise as compared to the RX03 implementation on a DSD >880/30 which uses the same floppy media, but uses the whole first >side of the media followed by the second side of the media as >programmed within the DY(X).SYS software device driver in >RT-11. These block-numbering issues are addressed by Chester Wilson's "DYC" handler, to an extent. To quote from the documentation: *This handler is designed for Sigma/Dilog RX03 controllers, with optional *assembly for DEC, MTI, and DSD ones. It may need minor modification *(notably to the extended addressing and formatting code) for other *manufacturers' boards. *... *In version 4, support for the SMS flavour of RX03 format has been added *(courtesy of discs from Billy Youdelman). Sources to this code are available at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rt/billy/ducm5d_dsk/ This code also knows how to format completely blank floppy disks into DEC-compatible RX01 or RX02 on many third-party controllers under RT-11/TSX. >As soon as I finish my tax returns and clean up a few other >things Don't you have till April 30th up there? (I have to get the Canadian forms for the money I earned in Canada last year, still...) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 4 11:26:23 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? In-Reply-To: <199904040328.AA16941@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, Megan wrote: > > Wait... will RLV11s go in the 11/44??? That would be major cool, > >as well... > > No, RLV is for Qbus... generally, if you find an option which has > a Q or V as the third letter in the option name, it is for Qbus. > > For example, dlV, dhV, dhQ, dzV, dzQ, vsV, etc... > > Some options for UNIBUS have a U as the second or third of > the option name... dhU, dU. But generally, the UNIBUS options > are two-character names, DL, DH, DZ, VT, etc... As always, there > are exceptions, like DUP, DMC, DMR... Is there a guide somewhere that explains what all the codes translate to? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Apr 4 11:35:55 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? Message-ID: <990404123555.212000fe@trailing-edge.com> >> Some options for UNIBUS have a U as the second or third of >> the option name... dhU, dU. But generally, the UNIBUS options >> are two-character names, DL, DH, DZ, VT, etc... As always, there >> are exceptions, like DUP, DMC, DMR... >Is there a guide somewhere that explains what all the codes translate to? Ron Copley's venerable "Field Guide to Q-bus and Unibus Modules" contains, in most cases, the option name as well as the module number in the description. For example: M8053-AA DMV11 Q Microprogrammed controller (needs one of M5930- M5931) (Also M8053-AB, -AC, -ETC) Generally, a "D" at the front means it's some sort of communications option, a "M" means memory, a "K" means CPU, "R" means disk controller, a "T" means a tape controller, an "A" means an A/D or D/A converter, a "V" means some sort of video-related hardware, and "L" means either a line printer or a linear module. I'm sure someone will come up with many options that don't quite fit into this scheme :-). The field guide claims at its top: *This list may always be found on sunsite.unc.edu, in the following *directory: */pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/field-guide.txt *(Tonnes of stuff here... thanks, Tim!) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From max82 at surfree.com Sun Apr 4 10:47:12 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990404091041.00a1f200@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Apr 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: >They are micro-coded to run LISP, sorta like the WD P-Engine machines run >PASCAL. So, an assembly language program for them would look like lisp, as opposed to MOVs, ADDs, and so forth? And same with Pascal? But why would anyone want something that was microcoded to run Pascal? Are there any other languages that have gotten microcoded into a processor? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Apr 4 12:56:54 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: References: <199904040412.UAA09246@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19990404124104.00a4bef0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 11:27 PM 4/3/99 -0500, Max Eskin said something like: >On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: >>I hope you'll try Squeak again, though. Are you using UNIX? You may find >>the MS-Windows and Mac versions more stable. Smalltalk's mechanism of >>message passing and the "everything is an object" philosophy give it a >>unique power. > >I was using the Windows 95 version, and it was constantly swapping. I have >16 megs RAM, but I hardly think it should take that much. Is there a GNU Although I cannot offer input on Squeak, etc. (I don't use it), I feel you need to increase your RAM to 32 meg or even 64. Winslop95 is really rotten at memory and resource management -especially when running apps that take up a lot of resources. You've realized this by now I'm sure. Hmmm . . . Could that have been a secondary reason the word "Windows 95" was kept as this wannabe OS's name? "95% of resources escaped out the Window" :-) :-) My P200 machine, when with only 32 meg, swapped itself to pieces it seemed after a few days since a reboot even though I'd shut down all unused apps to run one. System resources still were not released. After kicking up to 64 meg I now can go for several weeks until needing a restart to recover. Thanks a lot BG. Good luck, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Apr 4 12:07:42 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:45 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990404091041.00a1f200@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990404100141.00a9bbd0@mcmanis.com> At 11:47 AM 4/4/99 -0400, Max wrote: >So, an assembly language program for them would look like lisp, as opposed >to MOVs, ADDs, and so forth? Nearly, the trick is that the machine code instructions are designed with the high level language constructs in mind. So on a LISP machine there might be an instruction: next ptr, ptr Which follows a LISP list construct to the next element. > And same with Pascal? Yes, although you could consider "P-code" to be a lower level. > But why would anyone want something that was microcoded to run Pascal? Speed mostly, that and ease of use with compilers. > Are there any other languages that have gotten microcoded into a processor? COBOL was microcoded into some of the old Burroughs machines. Mesa was microcoded into the Xerox "D" machines. Java was microcoded into Sun's picoJAVA chip. It is just a question of spending precious Chip real estate only on instructions that the "main" language needs. (the nice thing about the Xerox D machines was that the microcode was loaded so you could change it at will) Given todays chip budgets it makes less sense (the Sun picoJava chip has _not_ been a success) but it is still done. --Chuck From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 4 12:13:22 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <199904040739.XAA27928@saul1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > > Not if it runs on a Lisp Machine! > > > > William R. Buckley > > If you have a LISP machine, I'd love to hear about it. I do. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 4 12:40:25 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <199904041740.AA02637@world.std.com> This is why I'm positng about progress. I'm well above average with tools, test gear, spare parts and debug skills. I seriously wonder how many of the "I want a SROCTH because I've heard they are neat(kewl, cool, gnarly...)." have the skills or the clues to even power it successfully. These things are as far from PCs as one gets. The end result is destruction rather than preservation. OH, "SROCTH" is Some Rare Old Computer To Hack. Part of the power supply work was removing and repairing an existing bungled hack that had some of the foil burnt off the board, likely with some soldering torch of killer proportions. When dealing with old power supplies like this substitutions are not a good thing. <>> Put boards (all but core) and regulator board in dishwasher and <> dried them in the oven. < <>They are micro-coded to run LISP, sorta like the WD P-Engine machines run <>PASCAL. < 16megs is the minimum to run W95 in my experience and it runs much better with 32m. It's a pig. But why would anyone want something that was microcoded to run Pascal? < from "Buck Savage" at Apr 4, 99 03:22:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2273 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990404/8733dd22/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 12:57:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 4, 99 10:42:34 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 919 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990404/be4f3af1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 13:02:02 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 4, 99 10:48:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1345 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990404/fc3aab3f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 11:49:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <199904040119.AA17612@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 3, 99 08:19:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1771 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990404/7d16d23f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 12:21:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <09a701be7e75$2df30fd0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> from "Buck Savage" at Apr 4, 99 00:28:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2896 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990404/a1ac4064/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Apr 4 13:04:30 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! Message-ID: <990404140430.212000e2@trailing-edge.com> >the WD Pascal microengine. Why was it done? In the late 70s Pascal was >emerging as a teaching language and it was highly standardized. Most >small systems had the resources to run it as native compiled but the >authors (UCSD) decided that portable Pcode would allow more platforms >to run it as the Pengine was easier to code than a whole compiler. Not only that, but the P-code was often more compact than the equivalent native machine code. (It's probably even more compact than modern RISCy processor code.) Compactness of code is an enormous advantage in a limited memory-space environment. Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 11:56:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <000e01be7e3c$9d353500$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 3, 99 06:44:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 913 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990404/16610c57/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 12:03:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <199904040314.AA10490@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 3, 99 10:14:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 563 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990404/51fa2f43/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 12:30:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Apr 4, 99 05:39:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2254 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990404/1e8d4202/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 12:33:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: Hard-sectored 5.25" disks In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Apr 4, 99 05:49:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 873 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990404/f933040f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 12:43:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <19990404095017.24697.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 4, 99 09:50:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1517 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990404/869ea122/attachment.ksh From roblwill at usaor.net Sun Apr 4 16:02:02 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... Message-ID: <01be7ede$636bc800$878ea6d1@the-general> Will do. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 3:15 AM Subject: Re: Apple stuff.... > >I bought a box full of Apple etc. cables recently, wait a couple days and I >will sort out what I have and put it on my web page. > >http://www.netwiz.net/~mikeford/MacList.html > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 4 13:18:54 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? In-Reply-To: <990404123555.212000fe@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >The field guide claims at its top: > >*This list may always be found on sunsite.unc.edu, in the following >*directory: >*/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/field-guide.txt >*(Tonnes of stuff here... thanks, Tim!) But for how long will sunsite.unc.edu resolve to metalab.unc.edu? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Apr 4 13:25:11 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? Message-ID: <990404142511.212000e2@trailing-edge.com> >>The field guide claims at its top: >> >>*This list may always be found on sunsite.unc.edu, in the following >>*directory: >>*/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/field-guide.txt >But for how long will sunsite.unc.edu resolve to metalab.unc.edu? Probably forever :-). Still, I should fix it up with the new "sanitized" name. It was only a few weeks ago that I thoroughly replaced my "triumf.ca" address on the web pages there... -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 4 13:30:53 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <199904041740.AA02882@world.std.com> Message-ID: > >There is no free or shareware viewer for that format I can find. If you >have one it can likely save the file as jpg of gif. Why an oddball version >of TIFF was used is beyond me. I've got to agree, that is one irritating format. As far as I've been able to determine, nothing on UNIX or VMS will read it, and I think the Mac has trouble with it also, but can peal it apart. So basically you're stuck having to read it using Windows, which quite bluntly strikes me as stupid, considering that I suspect a lot of use that are interested in the documenation can't stand to run Windows! On the other hand, I have managed to check it out at work on a NT machine which I had till I tossed it out of my office in disgust a couple months back (back to just a RS/6000 and a IBM typewriter), and it was pretty nicely done. It took a lot of effort to put those files together and that effort is much appreciated, so while I hate the format I'm not really complaining. After all, in my opinion having to put up with a Windows PC in order to access the stuff is for the most part a decent tradeoff. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 4 13:39:01 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <002601be7eca$692860a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> You're right. The "text" mode was really not a valid construct for VGA monitors. Many EGA monitors would work just as well as VGA's, which, I guess is a testament to the not so unusual notion that people charge less for a product even though they've spend extra resources to make it less valuable. The "hardware" text mode with which I'm familiar is simply a color killer, which drives the display into a light green on a dark green background. It didn't do anything to the sync. Monitors which work with VGA should be fine. What's required in order to make the VGA look like monochrome, is either to drive all the colors equally or to drive only the green video. It would be much simpler to allow the use of an S-100 adapter to use his old monochrome monitor with either a mono or a Hercules, or whatever other card he desires. His software will have to deal with it anyway, and the hardware for mapping it isn't too complicated to support on an adapter card. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 12:13 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... >> Fire). One of those little switch boxes would serve just fine. The 8.0 MHz >> Z80 wouldn't be sufficient to drive a VGA, so no need for anything fancy. > >Hmm... Don't VGA cards still have a hardware text mode? That's all you >really need for the Z80 machine, and using it wouldn't be any worse than >using an MDA or CGA card, once it's initialised. > >Of course that means you need to get a VGA card based on a documented >chipset so you do know what to stick in all the registers. The on-board >BIOS is going to be no use at all. > >I've seen a VGA card in a 4.77MHz 8088 machine, and it was usable for >text and point-plotting type graphics. I think a Z80 could manage that as >well. Of course you'd probably need some kind of paging hardware to map >all the VGA's memory space into the Z80 memory map. > >The advantage of using a VGA card is that most people have a VGA monitor >on their desk anyway... > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 4 13:43:45 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <003501be7ecb$122f4060$0100c0a8@fuj03> please see imbedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 11:47 AM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... ><(8-bit ISA) connector into a DIN 41612 right-angle socket, such as what on > >Been there and done that. >Also, there are no less than two articles on how to go from s100 to ISA. > There's a substantial reach from an article to a solid and working circuit on a board capable of actually supporting the functions. This is particularly true since, now, the user is required to understand the inner workings of his own machine as well as those of the card he wishes to use. Having the usual inkling about ISA is not always sufficient. >What software problem... since s100 cards tend to be all different anyway >it would be the norm that software would have to be created. > >Allison > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Apr 4 13:51:46 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <990404145146.212000e2@trailing-edge.com> >Yes, and therein lies the "problem" for the average user. This is why I prefer simple serial console. No software to write, no memory mapped video to take a chunk out of usable memory, no memory banking schemes, no dependence on finding monitors of a particular scan rate or interface. Just a simple I/O port! Admittedly, many folks seem to believe that a computer must have a video generator to be a "computer". My CP/M experience started with Model 33 Teletypes and blinkenlights front panels, so perhaps I'm the odd man out here. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 4 13:17:04 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? In-Reply-To: <37076D66.C07461F4@idirect.com> References: Message-ID: >I have one working (or at least it was about 3 years ago when it was last >in active use) SMS-1000 backplane (and power supply) with built in >hard disk drive (I can't remember the size - about 10 to 30 Megs). If I think both of mine are 20Mb HD's, I seem to remember one of them is dead. >My box has a single 8" floppy which is DSDD in capacity for a total of The one that is operational has the 5.25" floppy, the one with the dead HD, that I stole the /73 board from has a 8" floppy. Both came with 256KW of RAM. >Eventually, I suspect I will bring the system back to life and >play some more. It is almost identical in size to a BA23, but >a little lighter and much easier access. If I add an ESDI >controller, I can have 600 MBytes and still have 3 quad I think you'll find that the system gives you trouble booting off of ESDI. >As soon as I finish my tax returns and clean up a few other >things, I want to make Y2K patches available for hobby >use for V5.3 of RT-11. Is anyone interested? If you read >this far into this e-mail, then you must be a PDP-11 user >(addict like I am). I know a few of you like RT-11 as well, >but I don't know how serious you feel about Y2K patches? >Please respond (either on list or off - V5.3 was released in >1985 and qualifies under the 10 year rule). I'm sure some of us will be, sometime around the 2nd of January :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 13:08:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 4, 99 11:47:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 327 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990404/26c98825/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 13:15:13 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? In-Reply-To: <990404123555.212000fe@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Apr 4, 99 12:35:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 858 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990404/7663608e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 13:54:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <199904041740.AA02882@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 4, 99 01:40:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1145 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990404/6f318943/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 13:56:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <199904041800.AA11357@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 4, 99 02:00:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990404/d1125b8b/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Apr 4 14:36:38 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? Message-ID: <990404153638.212001d7@trailing-edge.com> >> Generally, a "D" at the front means it's some sort of communications >> option, a "M" means memory, a "K" means CPU, "R" means disk controller, >> a "T" means a tape controller, an "A" means an A/D or D/A converter, >> a "V" means some sort of video-related hardware, and "L" means either >> a line printer or a linear module. I'm sure someone will come up >> with many options that don't quite fit into this scheme :-). >Obvious exceptions without even thinking about it : I don't think they're all obvious exceptions, though some are certainly pushing the definitions to their limits! >DR11-x (parallel interfaces, not really comms) "Yeah but" a very common use of these cards were for interprocessor communications (not necesarily between two -11's.) In any event, a parallel interface is conceptually not much different than a serial one, though certainly by the time you start putting interrupt request and DMA handshaking on the cable you are stretching the boundary of what "comms" is. >KMC11 (soft-microprogrammed version of the DMC11. Not really a processor) DEC felt differently - they really pushed the fact that there was a processor (they call it a "microprocessor", somewhat at odds with the modern interpretation, but it makes historical sense) in there. >KM11 (maintenance card, not a processor) >KW11-x (time clocks, etc) Well, the module designation has to start with some letter, and I think K is more appropriate than anything else here. >KL11 (early version of the DL11, current loop serial at 110 baud) If used as the console interface - as the KL11's usually were - K isn't too inappropriate. >MNCxx (MINC I/O modules, not memory at all) >LPS11 (Lab Peripheral System, not a printer interface) These are, indeed, true exceptions - though I don't think anyone would get too confused and try to use a MINC module in place of memory :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mark_k at iname.com Sun Apr 4 15:53:14 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: Several things Message-ID: Hi, Several different subjects in one message... Sony 650MB 5.25" MO drive ------------------------- I posted about this drive a couple of week ago. At the time, I thought one of the firmware EPROMs was faulty. (It wasn't. I have backed up all four EPROMs in the drive.) It turned out that the drive lens needed cleaning. Not having a 5.25" head cleaning disk -- these are expensive, I think IBM wants over 50 pounds for one -- I had to disassemble the drive, removing both circuit boards to reveal the lens. After cleaning with a cotton wool bud & isopropyl alcohol and putting the drive back together, it miraculously worked! The surfaces of all the disks were quite dirty. I believe the drive was used in the City of London, and years of pollution left a residue on the surfaces. I don't have a 5.25" MO disk cleaning kit, but luckily it's quite simple to clean 5.25" disks by hand. Briefly, I did this: - wear plastic gloves to avoid getting oil from skin on surface - breath on disk surface and wipe radially with a folded-up kitchen towel - rotate the disk using finger (there is space to do this between the outside of the disc and the casing) and repeat the breath & wipe until the entire surface is cleaned - do the same for the other side Things I learned: - Old MO drives and disks are sometimes available very cheaply, so it's worth looking out for them. - Cleaning the drive lens and disk surfaces can bring performance back to as- new. Dirt impairing performance might be a common reason why a company would get rid of old drives. - You don't need an expensive cleaning kit to clean 5.25" disks. If you're adventurous, you can clean the drive lens without needing to buy a special disk. - The old drives are much slower than modern ones. Performance is about equivalent to a 4.5x CD-ROM drive for reading, with average seek time of 95ms (some modern drives are 20-25ms). If anyone in the UK wants to get rid of an old 5.25" MO drive, especially a 1.3GB unit, please let me know. I'd like to have a backup unit in case my drive breaks down. EPROMs ------ My experience with one of the firmware EPROMs (made by TI) in the Sony drive showed that "not all EPROMs are the same", which is news to me at least. Data in most EPROMs can be dumped by doing this: - drive /OE low - set up address lines - read value on data bus However the TI EPROM didn't like that; doing it that way, even reading multiple times and ANDing the results, gave errors. After changing my program to set up the address lines before driving /OE low, everything went okay. Now I need to re-dump the various EPROMs from other things that I thought were bad. Hopefully at least some will be okay. C= PET VisiCalc EPROM --------------------- The Commodore PET version of the VisiCalc spreadsheet came with a chip that plugged into a socket on the main board. This was probably an EPROM, used for copy-protection. I have an original VisiCalc package, minus this EPROM. Does anyone know where I can download an image of the EPROM from? Nutspinner ---------- Disassembling PCB-mounting D-type connectors is a pain without having a nutspinner for the hexagonal bolt things which typically fix the connector to a panel. What size, number or whatever nutspinner is the right one for this purpose? IBM 3363 WORM drive ------------------- Along with the Sony MO drive, I picked up an IBM model 3363 WORM drive (IBM part number 63X4146). This was made in 1987. The original product announcement can be read on the IBM web site. It uses write-once disks which store about 200MB. Luckily it came with twelve such disks, four of which are still in their wrapping. Anyway, the drive uses some kind of custom interface. It connects to a special ISA or MCA card via a cable with 37-way D connectors at each end. The drive came with two MCA cards, part number 63X4266. I have been unable to test the drive or cards, since I don't have an MCA machine. Does anyone know what the part number of the ISA controller for the 3363 drive was? And where I might get one (cheaply)? The MCA controllers have a firmware (EP)ROM on. One uses a 27C64 EPROM, which I was able to backup without (many) problems. The other uses what I presume is a mask ROM, MN2364DSP; this is made by Matsushita. I can't seem to dump this properly, so its pinout must be somehow different to the 2764 EPROM. Any ideas where I might look to find the pinout for this chip? Regards, -- Mark From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Apr 4 16:01:44 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: Several things Message-ID: <990404170144.212001e7@trailing-edge.com> >C= PET VisiCalc EPROM >--------------------- >The Commodore PET version of the VisiCalc spreadsheet came with a chip that >plugged into a socket on the main board. This was probably an EPROM, used for >copy-protection. I have an original VisiCalc package, minus this EPROM. Does >anyone know where I can download an image of the EPROM from? I'd be interested to know exactly what this chip did. It was never perfectly clear to me that it was used for copy-protection. >Nutspinner >---------- >Disassembling PCB-mounting D-type connectors is a pain without having a >nutspinner for the hexagonal bolt things which typically fix the connector to >a panel. What size, number or whatever nutspinner is the right one for this >purpose? 3/16 inch. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Apr 4 16:17:15 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: FA: ZWS-0200-97 pair and ZWS-0300-04 Units "SupersPORT" portables on eBay Message-ID: <3707D6D9.3921DEF4@bigfoot.com> Not sure if anyone may be interested but I have just posted these two ZDS machines to eBay as well as a GridCase2 (see the other auctions link) -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Russ Blakeman Subject: FA: ZWS-0200-97 pair and ZWS-0300-04 Units "SupersPORT" portables on eBay Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 15:59:02 -0500 Size: 2291 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990404/6fc49d1f/attachment.mht From hhacker at home.com Sun Apr 4 16:40:44 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! Message-ID: <09d701be7ee3$cc233d10$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> >On Sun, 4 Apr 1999, Buck Savage wrote: >>not stored in RAM. Instead, they are stored in ROM. > >AFAIK, they are hard-coded into the CPU (except for PERQ and the like >where they can be altered). ROM conjures up images of little socketed >chips on the motherboard. > >--Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > Consider the PDP 11/44 in my living room. It is constructed using the AMD 2900 series of bit-slice microprocessor chips. In this case, the microcode is, in fact, stored in ROM chips, each of which is socketed to the motherboard. For some other types of processors, sure, the CPU real estate does carry the code but, the part of the chip that holds the code is ROM. William R. Buckley From hhacker at home.com Sun Apr 4 16:44:05 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! Message-ID: <09de01be7ee4$435b9030$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> >On Sun, 4 Apr 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > >>They are micro-coded to run LISP, sorta like the WD P-Engine machines run >>PASCAL. > >So, an assembly language program for them would look like lisp, as opposed >to MOVs, ADDs, and so forth? And same with Pascal? But why would anyone >want something that was microcoded to run Pascal? Are there any other >languages that have gotten microcoded into a processor? > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > The value of a high-level language capable machine is that the code can run without the need to invoke language translation. In such cases, the hardware becomes a language interpreter, with the speed of processing dramatically increased. For a well designed system, the speed of processing is actually greater for a Lisp program running on a Lisp machine than it would be for the same Lisp program to run on a non-Lisp machine CISC or RISC processor. William R. Buckley From hhacker at home.com Sun Apr 4 16:55:14 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! Message-ID: <09f101be7ee5$d1dffac0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> >> Consider the instruction set of the x86. The MOV instruction is actually >> implemented as a small sequence of microinstructions. There is, in fact, >> no dedicated series of gates and other electronic aparatus which >> implements the operation of MOV. Instead, it is implemented as a >> series (or sequence) of smaller operations, such as LOAD REGISTER, >> ADD REGISTERS, etc. If you are not familiar with the processes of >> microprogramming, then you should become so. Microprograms are >> not stored in RAM. Instead, they are stored in ROM. > >Microprograms can be stored in RAM. It may not be common to have a 'soft >microcodes' processor (one where the microcode is stored in volatile >memory and loaded when the machine boots), but they exist. I can see 3 >from where I am sitting (2 PERQs and a Xerox Daybreak). > >If you think of a normal machine code instruction, then there are several >steps that have to be performed to execute that instruction and fetch the >next one. You can represent that process either as a collection of random >logic, or as a state machine with one flip-flop per machine state (which >is how the Philips P850 does it), or as a program. The last is >essentially what microcode is. > >> For those who are aware of the operations of the HP 21MX processors, >> these are microprogrammed machines. As it happens, the user of >> such a computer can alter the microprogramming. This is the computer > >In other words the microcode is partially stored in RAM on this machine. > >> Now, it is true that the printed text of the program must be converted to >> the instruction set of the computer but, the process is like this. >> >> "CAR" corresponds to the instruction with byte code 0x01 >> "CDR" corresponds to the instruction with byte code 0x02 >> >> and so on. Of course, the byte values I give are only examples. The >> true translations are not known to me. However, each operator of >> the Lisp language will correspond to a single instruction code of the >> Lisp machine. > > >There is a problem here. The process of programming in Lisp is >essentially defining new functions. So either _all_ of these are stored >in microcode (which would require a very large control store) or more >likely (and I happen to know that the PERQ Spice LISP does it this way), >there are some 'core' functions (like CAR, CDR, CONS, etc) that are >implemented as microcode, and higher level functions, including ones >defined by the user are defined in terms of these (and other higher level >functions). > >In which case, the program that translates a user definition into the >calls to both microcode and 'machine code' functions is pretty similar to >a normal Lisp implementation running on a micro (many of which do not >compile all user input to the machine code of the CPU they happen to run >on). It's dubious whether you call that an interpretter or a compiler, >though. > >-tony > Of course, I over simplified the discussion but, only to get my point across. Sure, it is possible for the microcode to be in RAM. The IBM 370's were just such machines. More than once, while I was an operator of such computers, the service representative came to the site, opened a panel on the operator console, and changed the 5 1/4" floppy disk. By doing so, he changed the microprogram of the computer. This microprogram was loaded each time the computer was powered on. For the x86 however, the microcode is hardcoded into the chip. My wish is for a computer system that provides for dynamically modifiable microcode, so that my self-modifying programs could obtain a new level of self-modifyability! As for the Lisp difficulties, remember, it takes only a few of the basic operators to define the language. All else can be derived from same, and AFAIK is derived from same. So, there is no need to implement derivable functions in microcode. William R. Buckley From hhacker at home.com Sun Apr 4 16:57:32 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! Message-ID: <09fa01be7ee6$24641830$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> >> "Buck Savage" wrote: >> > Actually, microcode is not compiled. >> >> All the microcode I've ever written was compiled. Of course, it was >> compiled from special source languages defined for that explicit purpose. >> No one with any sense would write a non-trivial amount of microcode any >> other way. > >All the microcode I've ever written (or seen) was written in a special >_assembly_ language. Or at least I'd class it as that as (a) one 'line' >of microcode corresponded to one microinstruction and (b) the language >statements were pretty close to the hardware definition. > >Here's a PERQ microinstruction : > >R0:=R0+R1, if neq goto(loop); > >The first 'phrase' defines the contents of >X and Y fields (select particular registers) >AMUX, BMUX fields (gate registers to ALU inputs, rather than, say gating >a constant there) >ALU field (do an addition operation) >W field (we want to write it back to a register and not just set the flags) > >The second phrase sets the >Condition field (to select the 'not equal' condition) >Jump field (to do a got and not just a next instruction, say) >SF and Z fields (to define the jump address). > >So the actual machine instruction is pretty close to the higher level >version. OK, some fields (Z in particular) can be set by several >different types of phrase, as the Z field is used for jump addresses and >IO addresses and shifter control and constants and... Yes the assembler >moans if you try to set it in 2 different ways in the same instruction. > >-tony > This is my experience as well. HP 21MX microcode is very similar. I will dig up some examples and post it at a later time. Thanks, Tony, for the examples and the clarification. William R. Buckley From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 16:40:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <002601be7eca$692860a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 4, 99 12:39:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 598 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990404/2a7b0fd3/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Sun Apr 4 17:16:39 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... Message-ID: <199904042216.AA28490@world.std.com> >Things must be dry before power up or electrolisys and other bad things >happen. Pure water is generally harmless. In what way harmless? Even 'pure' water has ions... (or so I've learned in chem class) >Soap, I used one of the standard products that seems to work well on >glasses. You mean something with a surfactant? Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 4 17:23:49 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <000e01be7ee9$d8a62740$0100c0a8@fuj03> Well, I'm inclined to agree with you. I've long felt that if one needed to spend time playing games, what was really needed was another job. What's happened over the years, however, is that people, having seen what a computer CAN do as shown in games, etc, have actually found ways to make data easier to interpret, and perhaps to add meaning and emphasis to a presentation, making it more persuasive, if not more informative, by using the graphical capabilities of a computer. As for the terminal vis-a-vie the color graphic display, I find the terminal quite limiting. However, most of the stuff I do is unaffected by these limitations. It's just the drafting work that would be limited, and perhaps the interpretation of the results from the various simulators I use. However, since I've got a farly hot system with which to do the drafting, the CP/M box doesn't really need graphics, does it? If you use a terminal, that's what you've got. There were, for a time, attempts made at graphic terminals. These failed, however, because there weren't standards on which they could base their usage. Consequently, if one didn't have certain hardware, there were limitations on the software he could use. Today, that's not the case, as EVERYONE has a PC clone with at least 1Kx768 pixels in 256 or more colors. EVERYONE has fairly ample resources, comparable, perhaps, to the sum of all the computer resources in the world when I went to college. Today, no one would normally consider a CP/M box for "useful" and essential work. For mental masturbation, speculation about would could, would, or should (note the subjunctive) have been, CP/M works just fine. If you have a construction business, or a medical office, there's no reason why CP/M can't work today every bit as well as it did back 20 or more years ago. However, aside from the notion of operating on an "antique" there's no reason to do so. It does serve to keep one grounded in what has changed over the years and what hasn't. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 12:58 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... >>>> >>Yes, and therein lies the "problem" for the average user. > >This is why I prefer simple serial console. No software to write, >no memory mapped video to take a chunk out of usable memory, no >memory banking schemes, no dependence on finding monitors of a >particular scan rate or interface. Just a simple I/O port! > >Admittedly, many folks seem to believe that a computer must have >a video generator to be a "computer". My CP/M experience started with >Model 33 Teletypes and blinkenlights front panels, so perhaps I'm the odd man >out here. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 4 17:29:09 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:46 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <001901be7eea$8f54d0e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> OOPS! I thought you were referring to the ubiquitous "text mode" switch on the back of so many EGA-class monitors, e.g. NEC Multisync-I, of which I've pressed several into service for Win95 with VGA cards. These use analog inputs and really aren't much different from VGA monitors, with the exception of their default horizontal sweep rate. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 4:09 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... >> >> You're right. The "text" mode was really not a valid construct for VGA > >Eh? Text mode has nothing really to do with the monitor. It means that a >single character cell on the screen is controlled by 2 bytes of memory. >One contains the character code (Ascii + a lot more characters), the >other contains the attributes (foreground/background colours, etc) > >> valuable. The "hardware" text mode with which I'm familiar is simply a >> color killer, which drives the display into a light green on a dark green > >Text mode can be (and is, on CGA and EGA and probably VGA) a colour mode. > >-tony > From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Apr 4 18:00:15 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <000e01be7ee9$d8a62740$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <199904042255.SAA17606@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 16:23:49 -0600 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: "Richard Erlacher" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... Originally to: > Well, I'm inclined to agree with you. I've long felt that if one needed > to spend time playing games, what was really needed was another job. > > What's happened over the years, however, is that people, having seen what > a computer CAN do as shown in games, etc, have actually found ways to make > data easier to interpret, and perhaps to add meaning and emphasis to a > presentation, making it more persuasive, if not more informative, by using > the graphical capabilities of a computer. Beauiful point and to point that out, we're still doing it even way back from stone and clubs days. Graphics on any media is easier to understand than stackful of numbers and words even spoken! Even when I was in elementery and HS school we generate numbers and words into graphics respentions or vice vesa. That was in CP/M to 386 days but didn't use computers. > > As for the terminal vis-a-vie the color graphic display, I find the > terminal quite limiting. However, most of the stuff I do is unaffected by Terminal is out because one would have to code so much that you really made another i/o out of software. I'm at that mental stage now. Better start in hardware then put bit of homebrew s/w in to get started. > Today, no one would normally consider a CP/M box for "useful" and > essential work. For mental masturbation, speculation about would could, > would, or should (note the subjunctive) have been, CP/M works just fine. > If you have a construction business, or a medical office, there's no > reason why CP/M can't work today every bit as well as it did back 20 or > more years ago. However, aside from the notion of operating on an > "antique" there's no reason to do so. It does serve to keep one grounded > in what has changed over the years and what hasn't. We're still writing characters/numbers and users are using so powerful computers *because* it's easier for them to see in graphics form and graphics items to operate at or in to get basic functions done besides writing and putting numbers in. That eat up more power just to do that. Crunching numbers and doing massive moves in graphics, is one thing I accept. And, decent windowing that does quickly and low on resources requirements does get job done bit easier that about it as I know so far. > Dick > Wizard From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 4 18:00:13 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <09b801be7e85$1d10c120$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> (hhacker@home.com) References: <09b801be7e85$1d10c120$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: <19990404230013.27267.qmail@brouhaha.com> > It may be that compilable languages are defined for the purpose of > providing for microcode but, that would mean that the sequence of > microinstructions is generally not predictable from the source code of the > program thus translated. Are you trying to claim that a microcode compiler is non-deterministic? This seems like a dubious proposition, given that there are generally no calls to a PRNG. The only deliberately non-deterministic development tool I've ever used was a Xilinx FPGA fitter. Somehow it seemed reminiscent of the bogosort algorithm. > Maximisation of processor throughput, and minimization of > microinstruction count, is at least half the purpose of microprogramming. Sure. And the microcode compilers I've written and used are much better at optimizing horizontal microcode than I have the time or patience to do by hand. > For such optimisation to be effected, on must necessarily write directly > in microcode, either bit and byte streams, or coded as in assembly > languages. No, it doesn't. Microcode almost always has a lot of data dependencies, which means that a compiler can often do as well as a human at optimizing it. > In any case, the use of a language translator always > results in a reduction of process throughput. Compilers only get inefficient when: 1) The source language is semantically far-removed from the object language, or 2) There are sufficiently few data dependencies that there is a wide range of possible instruction scheduling options. Compilers are only starting to get smart about interprocedural optimization. For a microcode compiler, neither of these conditions are met. The source language is specifically created to be conceptually and semantically similar to the operations available in the hardware, but with a lot of the detail taken care of automatically (by default, but can be overridden). > Recall that microcode involves the establishment of timing signals > at critical control points within electronic circuits and, the selection of > data paths within those circuits. Given this fact, there seems little > reason to leave the efficiency of microcode up to the accuracy of > a language translator, which we all know to be generally less > accurate that the results obtained by a skilled human programmer. I beg to differ. The output of microcode compilers I've dealt with has been substantially more accurate than hand-written "assembly" microcode, requiring far less debugging. > I would be grateful to learn from you of the tools you used in the > preparation of microcode. I've written and used microcode compilers since the early '80s, all for custom horizontally-microcoded machines. The compilers I've written have been based on fairly straightforward utilization of lex and yacc (or flex and bison). > All of the work I did was in graduate > school in the early 90's, and to date I have not seen a single > job made available to a microprogrammer type. I would really love > to have an opportunity to perform this kind of work as a job function. Get a job at Intel, AMD, NS/Cyrix, or Rise. :-) Microprogramming is almost a lost art. Things that used to be microprogrammed are now implemented using RISC processors and C code. Of course, basic RISC processor architecture (e.g., Stanford MIPS-X) is not that far removed from vertical microcoding. > As for the i860, sure, it is not actually the equal of a Cray-1 but, the > architecture is equal to that of the processor section of the Cray-1. You must be using some strange definition of "equal to" with which I was formerly unacquainted. You might just as easily claim that the architecture of the VAX 11/780 is "equal to" that of the IBM 3033. After all, both have sixteen 32-bit integer general registers. And in fact, compared to the differences between a Cray 1 and an i860, the differences between the VAX 11/780 and the IBM 3033 are minor. But I've never heard anyone claim that they shared the same architecture. The Cray 1 is a vector processor. The i860 is a scalar processor with a special dual-dispatch mode that can only be used by code specially written (or compiled) to take advantage of it, and in dual-dispatch mode it can only dispatch exactly one integer and one floating point instruction per cycle, in an aligned dual-word instruction pair. This is arguably too primitive to even be called superscalar, let alone vector. > Further, I should like to know in what ways you deem the Cray-1 > to differ from the i860, particularly with regard to the processor section. A comparison of the Cray 1 assembly language programmer's manual (I don't recall the exact title) with the i860 manual would reveal that there is almost no similarity whatsoever. The register sets are different; the memory addressing is different; the specific instructions provded are different; basically everything is different. As such, I don't even know where to begin in answering your question. It would perhaps be more useful to enumerate the areas in which they are similar; it would be a short list. > Have you actually used the i860? Yes. I've written assembly code for it for signal and image processing. In my spare time I wrote a program to compute Mandelbrot set images. I've had somewhat more experience with the Cray XMP and YMP, although on those I've generally relied on the C compiler under UNICOS, but I've studied the assembly output and occasionally tweaked it. I haven't ever run any code on a Cray-1, but the Cray-1 architecture is much closer to that of the XMP than the i860. It's been long enough since I used either the Cray or the i860 that I don't recall the precise details. All my manuals for both are currently in storage. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 4 18:08:43 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: (message from Max Eskin on Sun, 4 Apr 1999 10:42:34 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <19990404230843.27357.qmail@brouhaha.com> >>my money, it is an assembly language for an abstract computer. Sure, it > > I've seen some people on this list refer to certain computers as 'LISP > machines'. What is the meaning of that? Is that like UNIX is a 'C > machine'? No, more like the PDP-11 is a C machine. Since C is essentially a portable PDP-11 assembler. C is best-suited for (although it technically doesn't require) byte-addressable flat address space machines. However, this has led people to write terabytes of non-portable code under the assumption that "all the world's a VAX". LISP machines are designed for efficient implementation of LISP, and aren't very good at anything else, such as running C code. Unfortunately for their fans, because LISP never developed much mainstream acceptance, LISP processor development always lagged behind the development of conventional processors. By the time each generation of LISP processor actually shipped, the latest conventional processors were almost as good at running LISP code and better at running non-LISP code. Similar to how very few of the RISC processors have ever managed to beat the performance of the best contemporary x86 processors, despite the much- ballyhooed theoretical advantages of RISC architecture. The reality is that Intel has more money to spend on processor development than anyone else, so everyone else is hard-pressed to keep up. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 4 18:12:02 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: (message from Max Eskin on Sun, 4 Apr 1999 11:47:12 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <19990404231202.27383.qmail@brouhaha.com> > But why would anyone want something that was microcoded to run Pascal? Once upon a time, PASCAL was popular, and many people thought it was the wave of the future. Then C steamrolled over it. > Are there any other languages that have gotten microcoded into a processor? Many. There was APL microcode for several IBM mainframes. And just about every language that ran on a Xerox D-machine (Alto, Dorado, Dolphin, Dandelion, etc.) had its own special microcode. From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sun Apr 4 18:15:36 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <199904041740.AA02882@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 4, 99 01:40:50 pm Message-ID: <199904042315.QAA09007@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi: > > There is no free or shareware viewer for that format I can find. If you > have one it can likely save the file as jpg of gif. Why an oddball version > of TIFF was used is beyond me. It's free - see the links to the Eastman pages! You'll have to ask David, he was the one who did the scanning! Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 4 18:18:15 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990404231815.27432.qmail@brouhaha.com> > For example, if you > pulled the ROMs on the 11/45 and reprogrammed them, you'd not be able to > make the machine into a P850 (for all they are both 16 bit machines, and > both have 16 machine registers). The PDP11 instruction set uses some > 3-bit fields to select registers, and those bitfields are connected (via > logic) to the register select lines in the CPU circuity. The microcode > can't change that. Actually, the microarchitecture of the 11/45 is Turing-complete, so you could in fact make it run P850 code. It just wouldn't be particularly good at it. Just two weeks ago while researching something else, I found an old product announcement for a third-party writable control store option for the 11/45. However, in order to make this option more usable, they also added several new data paths to the 11/45. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 4 18:19:26 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <199904042319.AA00971@world.std.com> <>Been there and done that. <>Also, there are no less than two articles on how to go from s100 to ISA. <> <> OH, "SROCTH" is Some Rare Old Computer To Hack. < |-----+-----|<------+--- Lamp driver < | | From other gates-----------+ (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199904041800.AA11674@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19990404232522.27501.qmail@brouhaha.com> > P-code is not Pascal. It's a platform that all Pascal P-compilers grind > code to. Speed wise it was slow as the Pcode was interpreted on all but > the WD Pascal microengine. It's interpreted on that too. The distinction between implementing a P-Code interpreter as vertical microcode or as machine code on a typical microprocessor is fairly meaningless. The Western Digital MCP 1600 family as used in the LSI-11, WD Pascal Microengine, and the Alpha Micro AM100 is basically an 8-bit microprocessor optimized for running ROM-based instruction set interpreters. According to the MCP 1600 product announcement on page 83 of the December 1975 issue of IEEE Computer, "Two volumes of software documentation, a users manual and a programming manual, are available for $10." Does anyone have copies of these? From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 4 18:28:10 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990404232810.27547.qmail@brouhaha.com> > True. But AFAIK the AT keyboard host interface was never implemented in > TTL (it always used a programmed 8042 microcontroller), so it's a little > harder to build from scratch. If what you're trying to do is interface the AT keyboard to some custom controller that doesn't need to be otherwise AT-compatible, there's no reason why you need the 8042. The AT keyboard interface is not particularly harder to implement than the XT interface was. I've written code for several products that bit-banged it on a microcontroller. The AT keyboard interface protocol is really a pathetic design, though. It's a pain in the ass to deal with, and it's not well documented anywhere (even in the otherwise excellent AT Technical Reference, now available as a reprint from Annabooks). From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sun Apr 4 18:27:56 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 4, 99 10:30:53 am Message-ID: <199904042327.QAA11238@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Group: > >There is no free or shareware viewer for that format I can find. If you > >have one it can likely save the file as jpg of gif. Why an oddball version > >of TIFF was used is beyond me. > > I've got to agree, that is one irritating format. As far as I've been able > to determine, nothing on UNIX or VMS will read it, and I think the Mac has > trouble with it also, but can peal it apart. So basically you're stuck > having to read it using Windows, which quite bluntly strikes me as stupid, > considering that I suspect a lot of use that are interested in the > documenation can't stand to run Windows! As the owner of the highgate pdp-8 site, I couldn't agree more. I use Windows as little as possible, mostly in relation to my work (where everybody uses it and the need for compatibility is important), but in relation to the scans, I think that having the docs and other information available in any form (and this particular tiff form is unusual at best) beats not having them available at all. The site is extremely popular and gets approximately 700 MB of info downloaded to users a week. David Gesswein does the scanning, and I do the site maintenance. I don't have the time (or resources or scanning experience) to do both. If someone wants to download the files, and re-post them as separate JPEG files, or whatever, then fine: let me know and I'll post them in that form. But remember that several of the documents are hundreds of pages in length. This will take you awhile! David scanned and offered them in this form, and if it means that I have to download another free viewer and run it on my lone Windows box at home (I have over twenty other Unix and retro systems), then the convenience of having the info available outweighs my dislike for MS, and I will do so. > On the other hand, I have managed to check it out at work on a NT machine > which I had till I tossed it out of my office in disgust a couple months > back (back to just a RS/6000 and a IBM typewriter), and it was pretty > nicely done. It took a lot of effort to put those files together and that > effort is much appreciated, so while I hate the format I'm not really > complaining. After all, in my opinion having to put up with a Windows PC > in order to access the stuff is for the most part a decent tradeoff. Thanks, Zane. A necessary evil, I agree! Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 18:08:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? In-Reply-To: <990404153638.212001d7@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Apr 4, 99 03:36:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2404 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/dcbfb86b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 18:12:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: Several things In-Reply-To: from "Mark" at Apr 4, 99 08:53:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1522 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/947c4a0a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 18:14:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <09d701be7ee3$cc233d10$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> from "Buck Savage" at Apr 4, 99 02:40:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 365 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/d927743c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 18:21:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <09f101be7ee5$d1dffac0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> from "Buck Savage" at Apr 4, 99 02:55:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2085 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/0b64cd68/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 4 18:35:48 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <000801be7ef3$df180a80$0100c0a8@fuj03> Keep in mind, folks, that some of us remember when there simply weren't computers which we could use. Back when I was a boy, even the US GOV couldn't afford a computer capable of what my smallest simplest Windows9x system is capable. The fact that I don't use it for pure number-crunching is a recognition that there are other things equally deserving of the benefits of advancing technology. If a picture is worth a thousand words, then why type them if it's easier to draw the graphic representation. Moreover, if you have to read my 1000 words (about a page) and then draw yourself a graphic representation to understand and digest it anyway, why not stick to the graphic? A simple graphic can save both ends of a communication time, effort, and embarassment from when there's a miscommunication. If you tend to use your hands when you're explaining something, you probably know what I mean. Dick -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgocable.net To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 5:03 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... >Date sent: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 16:23:49 -0600 >Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >From: "Richard Erlacher" >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" >Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... >Originally to: > >> Well, I'm inclined to agree with you. I've long felt that if one needed >> to spend time playing games, what was really needed was another job. >> >> What's happened over the years, however, is that people, having seen what >> a computer CAN do as shown in games, etc, have actually found ways to make >> data easier to interpret, and perhaps to add meaning and emphasis to a >> presentation, making it more persuasive, if not more informative, by using >> the graphical capabilities of a computer. > >Beauiful point and to point that out, we're still doing it even way >back from stone and clubs days. Graphics on any media is easier >to understand than stackful of numbers and words even spoken! >Even when I was in elementery and HS school we generate >numbers and words into graphics respentions or vice vesa. That >was in CP/M to 386 days but didn't use computers. > >> >> As for the terminal vis-a-vie the color graphic display, I find the >> terminal quite limiting. However, most of the stuff I do is unaffected by > >Terminal is out because one would have to code so much that you >really made another i/o out of software. I'm at that mental stage >now. Better start in hardware then put bit of homebrew s/w in to >get started. > >> Today, no one would normally consider a CP/M box for "useful" and >> essential work. For mental masturbation, speculation about would could, >> would, or should (note the subjunctive) have been, CP/M works just fine. >> If you have a construction business, or a medical office, there's no >> reason why CP/M can't work today every bit as well as it did back 20 or >> more years ago. However, aside from the notion of operating on an >> "antique" there's no reason to do so. It does serve to keep one grounded >> in what has changed over the years and what hasn't. > >We're still writing characters/numbers and users are using so >powerful computers *because* it's easier for them to see in >graphics form and graphics items to operate at or in to get basic >functions done besides writing and putting numbers in. That eat up >more power just to do that. Crunching numbers and doing massive >moves in graphics, is one thing I accept. And, decent windowing >that does quickly and low on resources requirements does get job >done bit easier that about it as I know so far. > >> Dick >> >Wizard From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 4 18:45:33 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <002501be7ef5$3baf8b00$0100c0a8@fuj03> You're right on the money, here. It depends almost entirely on what your goals are or may be. ( Perhaps, like many of us, you don't know, exactly, what your goal(s) at any given time might be.) I try to fool myself into thinking that I do things involving computers and circuits to enhance/extemd my ability to earn a living. Maybe that's true. However, using a task like implementing a current strategy or algorithm on an old piece of hardware tends to extend one's thinking, which is also of benefit to one's ability to earn a living. If I had the task of building a homebrew computer, I could probably fit the whole thing on a single or maybe dual-width VME card. That's not much more area than an S-100 board if you leave out the regulators. The way this would have to come about, is that I'd build a processor<=>memory interface and an interface to a bridge controller for mass storage. If the processor didn't have I/O on board, which most of the ones in which I have interest relating to building a system from scratch do, then a single high-speed link to a system which had conventional resources would come next. Over time, I'd migrate the mass storage interfaces into my computer and leave out the bridge adapter. Likewise the external comm link(S). After that, it's anyone's guess. It depends on what goal(s) I am chasing at the time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 5:26 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... > >Depends on what your goals are. For me building yet another serial or disk >card is tedious and repetition. I'd rather experiment with advaced software >on old style but enhanced platforms. > > >No arguement. As a first pass machine static is usually the least painful >to deal with as are simple serial IO. The usual first time builder wants >more than their skills can generally support. > >Allison > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Apr 4 18:43:10 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <990404194310.212001f0@trailing-edge.com> >Keep in mind, folks, that some of us remember when there simply weren't >computers which we could use. Back when I was a boy, even the US GOV >couldn't afford a computer capable of what my smallest simplest Windows9x >system is capable. The fact that I don't use it for pure number-crunching >is a recognition that there are other things equally deserving of the >benefits of advancing technology. If a picture is worth a thousand words, >then why type them if it's easier to draw the graphic representation. >Moreover, if you have to read my 1000 words (about a page) and then draw >yourself a graphic representation to understand and digest it anyway, why >not stick to the graphic? A simple graphic can save both ends of a >communication time, effort, and embarassment from when there's a >miscommunication. And a graphic display is a sure way to make certain that a human is necessary at every step of processing, making it difficult to impossible to automate many tasks. You can't search images for the occurence of a particular object. Graphics are the first step to the point-and-drool interface you find on just about every computer these days, where quality of presentation is emphasized over quality of content. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 4 18:52:52 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <199904042327.QAA11238@fraser.sfu.ca> (message from Kevin McQuiggin on Sun, 4 Apr 1999 16:27:56 -0700 (PDT)) References: <199904042327.QAA11238@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <19990404235252.27649.qmail@brouhaha.com> Someone wrote about scanned documentation on highgate.comm.sfu.ca: > There is no free or shareware viewer for that format I can find. If you > have one it can likely save the file as jpg of gif. Why an oddball version > of TIFF was used is beyond me. Kevin replied: > David Gesswein does the scanning, and I do the site maintenance. I don't > have the time (or resources or scanning experience) to do both. Geez, I can't believe people are bitching about scanned documents being available for free, just because they have to go find a suitable viewer. Although I guess it shouldn't surprise me, since I get the same complaints about my own web site. I looked at these docs, and they are in completely standard TIFF Class F Group 4 encoding. Any program that purports to handle TIFF bitmap files but can't handle these is simply broken. I haven't researched the availability of TIFF viewer programs that thoroughly, but I've found that xv, ImageMagick, and Gimp all deal with them without difficulty. Group 4 fax coding is exactly the correct coding to use. GIF files of the same thing would be much larger, and JPEG files would either be larger or blurrier. I can't believe people keep wanting JPEG files; JPEG is designed for continuous-tone photographic images, and absolutely sucks for line art. The only more efficient coding for line art that I'm aware of is JBIG. It's only 10-20% more efficient, and almost no one has a JBIG viewer. The scanned documents on my web site are also in Group 4 format, but they're embedded in PDF files rather than TIFF. This provides several advantages, including that *all* PDF-compliant viewers can handle them, and that the PDF file can optionally contain "hidden" OCR'd text as well, so that it can be text searchable. Nevertheless, I get lots of complaints about using PDF, and my standard answer is that anyone that doesn't like is welcome to go f#@$ themself. If you like, I can provide a Unix program to convert multipage TIFF Class F Group 4 documents into PDF documents [*]. But I supect you'd get as many or more whiners. If you have sufficient disk space, you could provide both formats. Personally I don't see the point in going very far to accomodate the wishes of lazy people, so I provide only the PDF format. I used to offer Postscript and TIFF formats for a few documents, and the result was that lots of people wasted my internet bandwidth by downloaded all three even though it was clearly stated that the content was identical. > David scanned and offered them in this form, and if it means that I have David gets a hearty thanks from me, and so do you for making them available. Eric [*] Adobe Acrobat Exchange is apparently deliberately crippled to prevent the import of multipage TIFF files, since they want you to buy the much more expensive Acrobat Capture program if you do bulk scanning. I just use my own program to convert TIFF to PDF, then use Exchange to do the OCR. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 4 19:02:39 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <002c01be7ef7$b0315ec0$0100c0a8@fuj03> I have some reservations about your opeing assertion. I'd modify it to say that articles are sometimes descriptions of circuits that work, sometimes. I know people who build a circuit and try it once. If it works they say they have the circuit working, and if it doesn't, they only say they have it built. There are fellows I know who seem to be quite competent at building circuits, yet I see their stuff working and I see it malfunctioning, both. Sometimes I believe their circuits/assembly techniues to be solid, sometimes not. If I'm interested in applying a technology demonstrated in this manner, I often try it myself, sometimes simulating it first, if I have doubts about the validity of the underlying theory. The fact that a circuit LOOKS good doesn't excuse you from performing the requisite analysis. I've seen more error committed on the basis of inadequate analysis than probably any other reason. I seriously doubt, however, that anyone has written an article about mounting two ISA cards on an S-100 board which occupies only a single card slot when finished. That's what I was describing. I believe that's what is needed, as opposed, say, to a multi-board interface, occupying, say, the last position in a cardcage, thereby allowing cards to protrude somewhat beyond the end of the cardcage. I'd consider that a believable approach. The reason I say this is that the only way one gets to the notion I described is by ordering the DIN 41612 connectors with their genders reversed. Only a true dummy (referring to ME, of course) would do such a silly thing. I've got a basement full of circuits which didn't work though they were copied from the application note. There are also a number which do work, but I mostly delivered the working ones to someone who paid for them. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 5:27 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... ><>Been there and done that. ><>Also, there are no less than two articles on how to go from s100 to ISA. ><> > >The articles actually are descriptions of circuits that do work. > > >That was true then. Unlike PCs with plug and pray configuring a s100 >system meant you generally had knowledge and documentation or were plain >crazy. > ><><><>< > >define average user... today that's mom and pop that buy a PC and plug >it in. Definatly not the case in 1980. The reality of older computers >like the S100, SS50, Multibus types were you had to be a knowledgeable >user. Or if that was a problem you went to Apple or TRS80 styled machine >where the hardware was generally a fixed and software was the experimental >arena. > >Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 4 19:10:11 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <002f01be7ef8$acac1320$0100c0a8@fuj03> Well, maybe it's donator's remorse, but I gave away my VT100's and 220's a long time ago. I never had any strong feelings about ANSI terminals, having lived without them for so long. What I would use is one of the simple display terminal routines available in the public domain. There are plenty of them which emulate ANSI terminals if that's what's wanted. Just an ADM-3A or HAZELTINE-1500-equivalent function set would be adequate. Building in enhancements over what was done back when the computer was new would not be my goal. I'm always into exploiting the fact that these machines were once, and, hence, can still be, useful. I'd emphasize that the computers we use today, fast and fancy though they may be, don't really process text in a word processing vein much better than they could 20 years ago. Likewise, if it rolled out the payroll in accordance with both laws and schedules, it would probably still do that today. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 5:27 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... > >Retrorevisionist PCism. Though a VC8E is a definate computer thing. > >< My CP/M experience started with > >Same here. It's seems silly for me to recreate the logic and programming >of my vt100 when I have a vt100 that works better than any I could put >together. There is advantages to useing a PC keyboard and monitor as they >already take space on my desk but then again I can provide a serial port >and use the PC for a terminal. > >Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 4 19:14:40 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <003801be7ef9$4ce3b320$0100c0a8@fuj03> This is a sad but true artifact of the GUI. The best PC/Win95 backup program I have trips all over itself because it wants a human response to a query about whether or not to backup a file created by the backup program. It's not a BIG file, and it doesn't hurt having it there, nor would it hurt if it were left out. The default, however, and you can't get away from that, is to ask. I surely wish that were the only such case. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 5:50 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... >>Keep in mind, folks, that some of us remember when there simply weren't >>miscommunication. > >And a graphic display is a sure way to make certain that a human is >necessary at every step of processing, making it difficult to impossible >to automate many tasks. You can't search images for the occurence >of a particular object. Graphics are the first step to the point-and-drool >interface you find on just about every computer these days, where quality of >presentation is emphasized over quality of content. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 18:57:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <19990404230013.27267.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 4, 99 11:00:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2214 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/67030fb0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 19:04:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <19990404231815.27432.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 4, 99 11:18:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1626 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/7b49d5b9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 18:44:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <000e01be7ee9$d8a62740$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 4, 99 04:23:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1853 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/12fd2d8d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 19:12:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <199904042320.AA01609@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 4, 99 07:20:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 730 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/2f76f8b2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 19:17:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <19990404232810.27547.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 4, 99 11:28:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1510 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/9c8ce7f7/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Apr 4 19:26:25 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: Emulating classic terminals Message-ID: <990404202625.212001f0@trailing-edge.com> > Well, maybe it's donator's remorse, but I gave away my VT100's and 220's a > long time ago. I never had any strong feelings about ANSI terminals, having > lived without them for so long. On the other hand, I've lived with them for decades, and couldn't imagine being without them. They're the bread and butter of being able to interface with a wide variety of software on a wide variety of platforms! >What I would use is one of the simple display terminal routines available in >the public domain. There are plenty of them which emulate ANSI terminals if >that's what's wanted. And 99.9% of them are lousy. (In large part because the current generation of VT100 emulator writers have never even seen a real VT100, much less actually read the VT100 spec.) For a comparison of many products, both commercial and freeware, using an excellent test suite called "vttest", take a look at http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/k95compare.html Another very excellent resource on the subject is at Rick Shuford's web site, http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal/ -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 4 19:47:12 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <001a01be7efd$d84e7a40$0100c0a8@fuj03> Again, I have to agree about the "waste-of-trees" nature of most "technical" documents these days. Nevertheless, I find it easier to understand the result of a SPICE simulation when displayed graphically, e.g. with PROBE as supplied with PSpice, as opposed to a 2-page long list of raw values. It's true, SOME terminals, more recently than when I last bought one, but nevertheless SOME terminals, were capable of graphic display. They just weren't up to what a PC could do unless you paid more than what a PC would cost. I already stated that the "old" machines did the "old" and in many instances quite persistent tasks well, and still would, given a chance. People have learned, however, that it's not as beneficial to have OLD hardware as to have new, not because of what it will do, but what it won't. I don't mean that it won't break. Any hardware can fail. It's a statistical reality. However, if you try to repair that old, fine, terminal you bought in the '80's you'll find you can't get it fixed for less than the cost of a PC. If, however, you break your PC, there's really nothing you can't repair or replace for much less than the cost of the original. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 6:31 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... >> What's happened over the years, however, is that people, having seen what a >> computer CAN do as shown in games, etc, have actually found ways to make >> data easier to interpret, and perhaps to add meaning and emphasis to a >> presentation, making it more persuasive, if not more informative, by using >> the graphical capabilities of a computer. > >Odd... I much prefer text to graphics for just about everything. Sure I >like circuit diagrams. And graphs, of course. But I find the typical '4 >colour glossy' that passes for a technical document these days to be a >waste of trees. I'd much rather sit down with an informative piece of text. > >> If you use a terminal, that's what you've got. There were, for a time, >> attempts made at graphic terminals. These failed, however, because there > >AFAIK X-terminals are still in use.... > >> weren't standards on which they could base their usage. Consequently, if >> one didn't have certain hardware, there were limitations on the software he >> could use. Today, that's not the case, as EVERYONE has a PC clone with at >> least 1Kx768 pixels in 256 or more colors. EVERYONE has fairly ample > >Do they? I don't. My PC has Hercules and CGA graphics only. I don't own a >VGA card (I might have an EGA card somewhere, but I don't use it). > >> Today, no one would normally consider a CP/M box for "useful" and essential > >Depends on the 'useful work'. I've done seriously useful work on a Z80 >machine in the last year or so (admittedly running LS-DOS and not CP/M). It >depends on what you class as 'useful work'. My old 8-bitters can still >talk to the special interfaces I've designed to (e.g.) test cabling, dump >ROMs, etc. Sure, I could use a PC. But have you tried getting the same >level of docs for a PC-clone as I have for my TRS-80 Model 4? The latter >is much easier to repair and keep running > >-tony > > From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Apr 4 20:42:57 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <199904041800.AA11562@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990404202000.00a1e920@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 02:00 PM 4/4/99 -0400, Allison J Parent said something like: >16megs is the minimum to run W95 in my experience and it runs much better >with 32m. It's a pig. > ><64 meg I now can go for several weeks until needing a restart to recover. > >It's called memory leaks. Seems some applications do not return resources >to the pool as do some win95 drivers. often it can be tracked to one bad >driver. And I have not yet found a memory leak 'cleanup' utility which could either be run when needed or as a background app which would recover some of the resources. While spending a day learning more about this problem and hunting for solutions I did find a program on ZDnet somewhere which flushes the disk caches and thus helps slow down using up all the resources. Improved performance a bit too. > >And to think my uVAXII is still running with the 9meg that I used to >service a half dozen users plus network activity. Well, that helps illustrate to the hard-core windoze fans what a Real Operating System actually is :) And, to add another log onto the fire of reason, your mention of drivers being a culprit illustrates how the Wintel platform's driver development applications and/or sloppy writing of drivers can contribute to the problem. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 4 19:52:36 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <001f01be7efe$992b5760$0100c0a8@fuj03> Fact is, the serial protocol for communicating with your 'AT keyboard is widely understood and well documented. I'm sure anyone who could program an older 8-bit micro could program a PIC or other single-chipper, like the 87C42 which I believe is still made, to do what the old 8042 does. If you get an 8742, I don't think they even have a code protection bit. Given that you have too much principle, and perhaps not enough interest, to replicate the 8042 ( a clever choice of chips ) you could simply decode the binary you do get from the keyboard with a lookup table. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 6:31 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... >> >> > True. But AFAIK the AT keyboard host interface was never implemented in >> > TTL (it always used a programmed 8042 microcontroller), so it's a little >> > harder to build from scratch. >> >> If what you're trying to do is interface the AT keyboard to some custom >> controller that doesn't need to be otherwise AT-compatible, there's no >> reason why you need the 8042. The AT keyboard interface is not particularly >> harder to implement than the XT interface was. I've written code for several >> products that bit-banged it on a microcontroller. > >Absolutely. BUT : if you are making a homebrew machine, the last things >you need are (a) I/O that's timing critical (at least not for the >keyboard) or (b) a microcontroller that you have to program and debug. > >And then, as you said below, the AT keyboard protocol is not that well >documented. The XT is a little better documented, if only because there's >a circuit using standard chips (plain TTL chips) that accepts XT keyboard >input. You can work out any odd bits of the protocol from that. > >Alas IBM never published the 8042 ROM source, so you can't use that as a >reference. > >> >> The AT keyboard interface protocol is really a pathetic design, though. It's > >I'll not argue with that. > >> a pain in the ass to deal with, and it's not well documented anywhere (even > >The documentation is not brilliant, but you can figure out how to talk to an >AT keyboard from the info in the TechRef if you have to. Not an ideal >first project, though. > >-tony > From spc at armigeron.com Sun Apr 4 19:45:18 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <19990404235252.27649.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 4, 99 11:52:52 pm Message-ID: <199904050045.UAA07146@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 968 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990404/101e3e2d/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Apr 4 20:04:28 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: References: <19990404230013.27267.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 4, 99 11:00:13 pm Message-ID: <199904050100.VAA13732@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:57:38 +0100 (BST) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture > > > > > It may be that compilable languages are defined for the purpose of > > > providing for microcode but, that would mean that the sequence of > > > microinstructions is generally not predictable from the source code of > > > the program thus translated. > > > > Are you trying to claim that a microcode compiler is non-deterministic? > > This seems like a dubious proposition, given that there are generally no > > calls to a PRNG. > > The problem with most compilers is that they're too clever ;-). And you > don't always know what they're going to do in some circumstances (unless > you wrote them yourself ;-)). I find half the time I spend with CAD tools > is figuring out how to get them to do what I want - something I could do a > lot quicker and more accurately by hand... > Snip! > The answer (on the PERQ) _is_ defined. By default, AMUX will be set so R0 > will appear on those lines. But there's actually an obscure instruction to > set the AMUX as you want it. The point of that? Tracing pattern-related > ALU faults.Had that instruction not existed (and it's not mentioned in > some versions of the manual), you can bet I'd have been patching the > binaries... > > Or : Should the microcode assembler stick your code all > over the control store and put in (free) jumps as necessary? Or should it > maintain the code as you typed it? Does it matter? Do you want to know > what it's done? Often, it makes a heck of a difference... > > > > > The only deliberately non-deterministic development tool I've ever used > > was a Xilinx FPGA fitter. Somehow it seemed reminiscent of the bogosort > > algorithm. > > Don't get me started on the Xilinx tools. Suffice it to say, I spent > enough time undoing the damage that they did to my designs. I hate > computers that think they can design better than I can. They are almost > always wrong ;-) > > -tony > Beauiful! That what I want to avoid in that homebrew computer by doing on the wire to insure it's optimal operation and design. Wizard From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 20:05:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <990404194310.212001f0@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Apr 4, 99 07:43:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1142 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/814b251f/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Apr 4 20:14:29 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <990403092505.212000c1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199904050110.VAA20932@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 9:25:05 -0500 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: RE: homemade computer for fun and experience... Originally to: classiccmp@u.WASHINGTON.EDU Viewing Tim's splattering on the wall... > Why restrict yourself to PC-clone keyboards? May as well just put a Snip! Because, as I have traced around countless motherboards of all kinds and found this is far easier to cobble up one using keyboard, KB controller stolen from old motherboard, than trying to design and build a parallel KB or design an i/o and needed codes for terminal. I have heard horror stories from some who did the parallel kbs and they're no longer made. I could be mistaken. > If I were you, I wouldn't restrict myself to what's in the junk box. Hold on, doing it is real education and it's what makes me so alive about it. Done that on a appox 10 TTL chipsets with few analog sensors thrown in. In theory this works and manually stepped thru works 100% but has bugs in the sensor/analog threhold circuit area. 5 sensors (1 to step counter that feeds address to SRAM, group of 4 for data) 16 x 4bit SRAM with a button (WE) to store all 64bits of data in one pass by master media under sensors, nyble of data from sensors and SRAM into AND circuit to trigger counter that displays # of matches. No syncing circuits, media to be scanned is sync in themselves. Still have that original project materials and the prototypes. Did that in final year of H.S. of '93 and despite it's bugs got high marks. Back to VGA card idea, problem is: has to init the that stupid thing and worse thing as a first timer to face is to emulate the ISA. That is wayyy later in series of hazy future projects. Using SRAM for first time is easier to do as I had done in HS. Putting on i/o ports like parallel and serial is next in number of adds ons as I progress in that project. Driving the terminal is both bios, and hardware driven with most of it in software for it. I'm not yet at this point. So, starter machine: AT keyboard + KB controller pulled from old MB, 6845 4K text video driving TTL monitor, ram and bios after I get the firmware done and put into bios. That will pave way for i/o and FDC, finally CPM, then HDC. Onwards... who knows! Based on Z80 cpu? Should I put in a programmable timer IC to lessen use of "looping" that some s/w used to pace certain things? CPU, ram/rom, ttl glue logic, few associated LSI IC's like i/o ic and 6845 w/ 4K seperate ram. What ideally I like this way is to push data and instructions at items instead of "over-handshaking by s/w disease" before signicent results appears? That makes me think of winmodems which I don't like. 6801, 6809, parts of 386dx, Z80, 6502 or suitable CPU that have freely available docs on websites? My major is $ and space is lacking for keeping books. But I have so MUCH silicon and active brain. Wizard From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 20:19:13 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <001a01be7efd$d84e7a40$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 4, 99 06:47:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2520 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/d4f8e2f8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 20:28:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <001f01be7efe$992b5760$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 4, 99 06:52:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1503 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/81024f4e/attachment.ksh From max82 at surfree.com Sun Apr 4 19:33:25 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >It's documented. Whether it's _well_ documented is another matter. There >are a number of traps to fall into (and a number of clone keyboard >manufacturers fell right into them...) Do you mean to say that some clone keyboards don't work correctly? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Apr 4 20:51:34 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: References: <001f01be7efe$992b5760$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 4, 99 06:52:36 pm Message-ID: <199904050147.VAA18220@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 02:28:05 +0100 (BST) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... Hi! Tony scribbled: > > Sure. It's not hard. I was thinking more for the chap who was building his > first homebrew. When you're doing that you want as few 'variables' as > possible, and untested code in a microcontroller is something you must > avoid Tony is correct, I need to keep confusion factor and variables low. > The 8742 doesn't translate scancodes to ASCII or anything like that > AFAIK. It's basically a serial->parallel converter with some smarts. You > still need a lookup table even if you use the IBM-programmed 8042. > > -tony > _Groan!_ Must have to do the lookup translation part hooked to that "8042" from keyboard itself even it was pulled off the old chop shey motherboard? That one of the variable I'd avoid if I can at first. options: la-Altair front panel style (ugh) parallel ascii keyboard (bit problematic especially on keyboard side components and wirings.) or serial ascii keyboard (less complex and easier to do). Any ideas? Wizard From hhacker at home.com Sun Apr 4 20:51:33 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture Message-ID: <0a0d01be7f06$d60d74d0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> >> Maximisation of processor throughput, and minimization of >> microinstruction count, is at least half the purpose of microprogramming. > >Sure. And the microcode compilers I've written and used are much better >at optimizing horizontal microcode than I have the time or patience to do >by hand. > Your lack of time and patience is not equal to the claim you make regarding the quality of optimisation possible. William R. Buckley From roblwill at usaor.net Sun Apr 4 23:46:27 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:47 2005 Subject: Probably OT: Copy-Rite duplicating machine Message-ID: <01be7f1f$442bfdc0$df9ba6d1@the-general> Hi! I know this is probably off-topic, but I figured that someone here may be able to give me a bit of info on this thing. Today my church gave me this old copy machine (Is mimeograph the proper word for it?). I've figured out how to load the paper and turn it on, but that seems to be all. I put the paper in the one side, drop the loading rollers, push down a lever on the other side, some sort of liquid squirts out of a reservoir onto a roller, the paper gets pulled through, and comes out the other side (the side with the lever) into another tray, and is damp (from whatever squirted on to the roller). On the side where the paper comes out, there's a large aluminum roller with a slot in it. I've seen things like these used in movies (I think), and on that roller is what looks like a piece of carbon paper. If so, how does it work? Now the questions: - What is the liquid in the reservoir? It looks and smells like alcohol (sort of - it's been sitting in there for about 20 years) - What type of ink (if any) would it use, and where would I find this ink? - Where does the thing (document - whatever) go that I would want to copy? I think that's all the questions that I have for now. Please reply to me privately (don't want to take up the list's bandwidth). I'd like to get this thing working, since it's in pretty good shape, appears to function, and still has the original dust cover :) ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From mbg at world.std.com Sun Apr 4 20:57:56 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture Message-ID: <199904050157.AA29611@world.std.com> >>Sure. And the microcode compilers I've written and used are much better >>at optimizing horizontal microcode than I have the time or patience to >>do by hand. >Your lack of time and patience is not equal to the claim you make >regarding the quality of optimisation possible. well put... I've yet to find a compiler which can produce code which could not then be further optimized in some way by a person well versed in that machine's architecture... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Apr 4 21:02:25 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199904050157.VAA25912@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 20:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Max Eskin To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... Originally to: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > >It's documented. Whether it's _well_ documented is another matter. There > >are a number of traps to fall into (and a number of clone keyboard > >manufacturers fell right into them...) > > Do you mean to say that some clone keyboards don't work correctly? You bet! I have that AST keyboard that is "dead" until THE computer talks to it with specific instructions other way around with good ones. That makes specific items barf errors especially in Ultra-X PHD 16 card. That can confuse the tester. And another keyboard I had is that worse, can type so fast it would put a return scancode even I didn't hit that key! I recall fast typing the first 4 letters like autoexec.bat becomes: C:>\edit auto abort, retry, ingore? c:>\exec.bat c:>\ responded with same error message c:>\ Agggh! Good thing, crashed into bin because that dumb KB is BTC and also because it did break down and give too much problems. BTW, individual key switches not that capacitive coupling type. Wizard > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > From hhacker at home.com Sun Apr 4 21:02:23 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! Message-ID: <0a1c01be7f08$58b73460$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> >> Consider the PDP 11/44 in my living room. It is constructed using the >> AMD 2900 series of bit-slice microprocessor chips. In this case, the > >Well, I've never seen a PDP11 processor (as opposed to a floating point >processor or a VAX) that uses 2900 series. IIRC the 11/44 uses 74S181 >ALUs and a sequencer built from TTL (and maybe some 82S100 PLAs) > >-tony > Not mine. I just pulled the processor card and it contain 16 of the AM2901BDC chips, copyright 1978. The card has designation M7093 imprinted in the PCB metalisation layer. Well, upon closer inspection this seems to be the FPP. The card designated M7094 does have four of the 74181 type chips, and this is probably the general purpose CPU component. Any way, the point that I was trying to make is that the control code for the 2901 was contained in ROM, and not so much that the CPU was implemented via the 2901. Lets concentrate on the issue, not the errors associated with making the point. William R. Buckley From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Apr 4 21:08:53 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: Probably OT: Copy-Rite duplicating machine In-Reply-To: <01be7f1f$442bfdc0$df9ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <4.1.19990404190815.00a9e2d0@mcmanis.com> It's a "ditto" machine! Although Hans had a _much_ better name for it. The original goes on the roller. --Chuck From hhacker at home.com Sun Apr 4 21:05:19 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! Message-ID: <0a2101be7f08$c1ae63d0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> >> computers, the service representative came to the site, opened a panel >> on the operator console, and changed the 5 1/4" floppy disk. By doing > >I think I read somewhere that the 8" floppy was originally designed for >this purpose. This may be. Yet, this was my introduction to the 5 1/4" format. At the time, I worked for Remex, a division of EX-CEL-O corporation, and they made 8" and 5 1/4" inch drives. The year, IIRC, was 1977. William R. Buckley From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Apr 4 21:07:43 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: Probably OT: Copy-Rite duplicating machine In-Reply-To: <01be7f1f$442bfdc0$df9ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <199904050203.WAA29736@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 21:46:27 -0700 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: "Jason Willgruber" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Probably OT: Copy-Rite duplicating machine Originally to: > Hi! > > I know this is probably off-topic, but I figured that someone here may be > able to give me a bit of info on this thing. > > Today my church gave me this old copy machine (Is mimeograph the proper > word for it?). I've figured out how to load the paper and turn it on, but > that seems to be all. I put the paper in the one side, drop the loading > rollers, push down a lever on the other side, some sort of liquid squirts > out of a reservoir onto a roller, the paper gets pulled through, and comes > out the other side (the side with the lever) into another tray, and is > damp (from whatever squirted on to the roller). On the side where the > paper comes out, there's a large aluminum roller with a slot in it. > > I've seen things like these used in movies (I think), and on that roller > is what looks like a piece of carbon paper. If so, how does it work? > > Now the questions: > > - What is the liquid in the reservoir? It looks and smells like alcohol > (sort of - it's been sitting in there for about 20 years) > > - What type of ink (if any) would it use, and where would I find this ink? > > - Where does the thing (document - whatever) go that I would want to copy? > > I think that's all the questions that I have for now. Please reply to me > privately (don't want to take up the list's bandwidth). I'd like to get > this thing working, since it's in pretty good shape, appears to function, > and still has the original dust cover :) Sounds like Ditto machine? And you need a master copy loaded in that cylinder. Now you know why that slot is for! Rotate to access that slot, load the master copy in and rotate correct way around it spins the drum to load it and go it goes! Seen them in operation for years in elementery and HS and I think some still in use. Dunno on that chemcials, it's very smelly on freshly copies "high from paper". :-) Wizard > > ThAnX, > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > > From hhacker at home.com Sun Apr 4 21:07:53 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture Message-ID: <0a2601be7f09$1d315c80$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> >> The only deliberately non-deterministic development tool I've ever used was >> a Xilinx FPGA fitter. Somehow it seemed reminiscent of the bogosort >> algorithm. > >Don't get me started on the Xilinx tools. Suffice it to say, I spent >enough time undoing the damage that they did to my designs. I hate >computers that think they can design better than I can. They are almost >always wrong ;-) > >-tony > My point, exactly. It is clearly the case that automated mechanisms are inferior to a quality human intelligence. For anyone to think otherwise is to relegate decisions of life to a computer program. As we all know, or should all know, artificial intelligence falls _way_ short of its lofty goals. William R. Buckley From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 4 21:18:33 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <19990404235252.27649.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199904042327.QAA11238@fraser.sfu.ca> (message from Kevin McQuiggin on Sun, 4 Apr 1999 16:27:56 -0700 (PDT)) Message-ID: >can't handle these is simply broken. I haven't researched the availability >of TIFF viewer programs that thoroughly, but I've found that xv, ImageMagick, >and Gimp all deal with them without difficulty. Really? Hmmm, I guess I should try 'xv' on a Linux box, instead of a RS/6000. I guess I'll give this a try tonite, if I can find the time. >Group 4 documents into PDF documents [*]. But I supect you'd get as many or >more whiners. If you have sufficient disk space, you could provide both Actually I'm of the opinion that PDF is just about the best format out there for documenation, although I know there are a LOT of people that disagree with that. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 4 21:43:47 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990405024347.28534.qmail@brouhaha.com> > There were several WCS options for the 11/40 and 11/45. Who made the one > you saw the advert for? I made the mistake of not copying it, so now I don't have the details. It was in an issue of IEEE Computer sometime in 1975, IIRC. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Apr 4 21:44:02 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <990404224402.212001f0@trailing-edge.com> > Why restrict yourself to PC-clone keyboards? May as well just put a > serial console port on and ... >Because, as I have traced around countless motherboards of all >kinds and found this is far easier to cobble up one using keyboard, >KB controller stolen from old motherboard, than trying to design >and build a parallel KB or design an i/o and needed codes for >terminal. "Designing an I/O and needed codes for a terminal" is dead simple. Put in a UART, put in TTL to RS232 or 20mA level translators, and you're done. Want to output a letter in the console? OUT 00H. Want to input a character? INP 00H. Come on guys, I'm *not* trying to be difficult. I'm pointing out that a serial console interface is: 1. Universal. No need to find a particular keyboard design or a particular monitor scan rate and/or interface. 2. Easy to build - it's just a UART hooked to an I/O port. 3. Easy to program - heck, with many UART's you get interrupt-driven input and output for free. And no need to write a terminal emulator! 4. Doesn't take up valuable memory space like memory-mapped video. 5. Gives enormous interfacing flexibility. You can hook it to a terminal, you can hook it to a ASR-33, you can hook it to your PC-clone, you can put a modem on it and dial into it. You're in fat city. In brief, it's the option that gives you the most advantages with the least effort. A no-brainer! > I have heard horror stories from some who did the parallel > kbs and they're no longer made. I could be mistaken. And I think folks who build video generators will run across the same problem in the future. The computer will easily outlast several generations of monitors and keyboards, and you want to be able to still use it in 20 years, don't you? I can use my 24-year-old S-100 boxes with serial console interfaces just fine today, just as I can use my 30-year old PDP-8 with anything that has a serial interface, and I expect that I'll be able to use them 30 years from now. Do you think you'll be able to buy new VGA (much less EGA) monitors 20 years from now? Heck, the FCC has an executive order that NTSC television will be gone and replaced by HDTV in less than a decade - better start buying up composite-input monitors now while they're still out there! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 4 21:46:05 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990405024605.28545.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > The AT keyboard interface protocol is really a pathetic design, though. It's > a pain in the ass to deal with, and it's not well documented anywhere (even Tony replied: > The documentation is not brilliant, but you can figure out how to talk to an > AT keyboard from the info in the TechRef if you have to. Not an ideal > first project, though. Having been there and done that, I maintain that sufficient documentation is *NOT* present in the Tech Ref. It's a starting point, but they omit many important details. I picked up other pieces from magazines, and ended up having to reverse-engineer some of it with a logic analyzer. Eric From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Apr 4 21:48:10 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: 11/73->RL02 Final Message-ID: Well. Over forty messages spawned from this topic. I am very most certainly grateful to each of you who has taken your time and expertise to add knowledge to the subject. I am not going to pursue the 11/73 any longer, because it is hardly a DEC machine, anyway (physically at any rate) and because I think that I would be better served by putting the resources into my 11/44. I have two 11/23s which *are* true-DEC, and perhaps these can be made to hold aloft the LSI banner in my collection. I definately want the 11/73 for the data on it's HD, tho. This leaves the 11/43a system and the uVAX II to be made to speak RL02, and then there's some form of networking between them, and also to a contemplated 486 or 586 platform dedicated to one of the PDP11 emulators. To this machine I can then install my SCSI 9trk drive, and do real handy things like CDROM and Media Conversion. I know the PR1ME 2550 has an ethernet port on it, and a SCSI port, and it has a Kennedy 9100 native to it... Sigh. I have an appointment with a friend of mine who is an electrician, to get an estimate on re-working my pitiful sixties-era house wiring. If I squeeze every drop out of the taxes this year, it might just pay for the sub-panel and the conduit run to the Machines. Yup. I got it *bad*... Thanks again everyone. I am going to take stock of my DEC module situation and then put some things up for trade... I'm angling for an RL02 on the uVAX... hint hint hint. Ah, damn.. forgot about the MINCs.... Cheerz John From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 4 21:57:18 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <0a0d01be7f06$d60d74d0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> (hhacker@home.com) References: <0a0d01be7f06$d60d74d0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: <19990405025718.28604.qmail@brouhaha.com> >> Sure. And the microcode compilers I've written and used are much better >> at optimizing horizontal microcode than I have the time or patience to do >> by hand. > > Your lack of time and patience is not equal to the claim you make regarding > the quality of optimisation possible. In theory, perhaps. In the real world, there is always a tradeoff between optimizing the last bit of performance into something, and the cost thereof. The microcode compilers I have used have done a better job that a person would have done in any practical length of time that a company would have been willing to pay for. Tony's example of trying to figure out which way AMUX should be set is exactly the sort of thing that a proper microcode compiler takes care of. Note that my idea of a compiled language for microcode and his for an assembler are actually quite close. I don't call it an assembler because there isn't a simple correspondence between source "statements" and microinstruction words, and my compiler handles algebraic expressions, loops, and various control structures. On the other hand, there have been some so-called "assemblers" that do that also. The dividing line between assemblers and compilers has always been somewhat vague, and it has gotten worse in recent years since now assemblers for RISC machines are expected to do instruction scheduling. And then there is VLIW and EPIC... From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 4 22:04:52 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <199904050157.AA29611@world.std.com> (mbg@world.std.com) References: <199904050157.AA29611@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19990405030452.28640.qmail@brouhaha.com> Megan wrote: > well put... I've yet to find a compiler which can produce code which > could not then be further optimized in some way by a person well > versed in that machine's architecture... Yes, but if you paid attention to the original claim, you would see that I asserted that it was true for horizontal microcode with large amounts of data dependency. This is *very* different than trying to compile C (or Pascal, or Bliss, or whatever) for a typical architecture (which more closely resembles vertical microcode). One of the systems I microcoded had 512 words of control store (of about 72 bits each), and running my microprogram source code through the compiler produced 514 words of microinstructions. With about two weeks of concentrated effort, I was able to eventually squeeze out two microinstructions. Total development time: 6 weeks. If I had tried to write all of the microcode in "assembly", it would have taken me longer to write, and it probably would have been *bigger* on the first pass. And I still would have had to spend a lot of time on hand optimization. I think this would have taken at least 12 weeks of development time, although since I didn't do it that way I'll never know. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 4 22:07:07 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <0a2601be7f09$1d315c80$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> (hhacker@home.com) References: <0a2601be7f09$1d315c80$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: <19990405030707.28648.qmail@brouhaha.com> > It is clearly the case that automated mechanisms are > inferior to a quality human intelligence. For anyone to think otherwise > is to relegate decisions of life to a computer program. We don't need to bring moralizing into the discussion. Most of us already relegate a lot of life's decisions, including some life-critical ones, to computers every day. Or are you the kind of person that refuses to buy cars with antilock brake systems? From hhacker at home.com Sun Apr 4 22:26:46 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture Message-ID: <0a6101be7f14$22c916f0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> >Megan wrote: >> well put... I've yet to find a compiler which can produce code which >> could not then be further optimized in some way by a person well >> versed in that machine's architecture... > >Yes, but if you paid attention to the original claim, you would see that >I asserted that it was true for horizontal microcode with large amounts >of data dependency. This is *very* different than trying to compile C >(or Pascal, or Bliss, or whatever) for a typical architecture (which more >closely resembles vertical microcode). > >One of the systems I microcoded had 512 words of control store (of about >72 bits each), and running my microprogram source code through the compiler >produced 514 words of microinstructions. With about two weeks of >concentrated effort, I was able to eventually squeeze out two >microinstructions. Total development time: 6 weeks. > >If I had tried to write all of the microcode in "assembly", it would have taken >me longer to write, and it probably would have been *bigger* on the first >pass. And I still would have had to spend a lot of time on hand optimization. >I think this would have taken at least 12 weeks of development time, although >since I didn't do it that way I'll never know. Your argument, Eric, was that the microcode compiler generated code that is equally as efficient as that you, or someone else, could have constructed by hand. Megan in no way implies the use of assembly code. The microcode compiler would generate an object file, which by your own admission above, generated more code than could fit in the memory space available. You accepted her argument that the human was required to generate code more efficient than that produced by the microcode compiler. You protest _too loudly_ my friend. William R. Buckley From hhacker at home.com Sun Apr 4 22:27:37 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture Message-ID: <0a6601be7f14$4127e680$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> >> It is clearly the case that automated mechanisms are >> inferior to a quality human intelligence. For anyone to think otherwise >> is to relegate decisions of life to a computer program. > >We don't need to bring moralizing into the discussion. Most of us already >relegate a lot of life's decisions, including some life-critical ones, to >computers every day. > >Or are you the kind of person that refuses to buy cars with antilock brake >systems? Use of such systems does not imply that I fail to recognise their limitations. William R. Buckley From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Apr 4 23:00:47 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: Is this normal? ODT Question Message-ID: <4.1.19990404205738.00a4c8e0@mcmanis.com> So I've got a Q-bus system with 64KW (128KB) of RAM that is allegedly an 18 bit backplane. When I'm in ODT I can type: @177770/ And enter values for 1777772, 1777774, 1777776, and then it wraps around to 000000. If I start at 200000 it works until 3777777 and then wraps to 2000000. So it seems to not cross a 64KB boundary. Also the boot area is 177300 ? so it is in the upper 4K of the 64KB address space, is it legal to have memory "above" the I/O page? --Chuck From ddameron at earthlink.net Sun Apr 4 19:11:29 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <001901be7e5f$51757e40$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990404191129.203712f0@earthlink.net> Hi all, At 10:52 PM 4/3/99 -0700, you wrote: >Well . . . I did think one could get two short cards on one S-100. I did >have something concrete in mind, too. If one inserts a wire-wrap 62 pin >(8-bit ISA) connector into a DIN 41612 right-angle socket >> What do DIN 41612 connectors look like? -Dave From bluoval at mindspring.com Sun Apr 4 23:51:41 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: Fwd: older computer stuffs Message-ID: <3708415D.D6B7BC8E@mindspring.com> from a post in alt.forsale: original poster is: c-bristol@usa.net (LA., CA) *** OLD COMPUTER EQUIP. NOT IBM STYLE, UNIX PDP-11, VIC20******** DOCUMENTATION: SOFTWARE: UNIX: full sets of docs for v.6, v.7, 4.1BSD, 4.2BSD, 4.3BSD, SUN OS2, SUN OS3, SunView. About 3 big file boxes of UNIX docs. Also have distribution tape of v.7 for PDP-11 licensed to me from SCO (Santa Cruz Operation) and the PDP11 hardware it is licensed for. I paid $1350 to SCO for this licence and tape, forsale now Cheap! Original v6 Lyons course, 1978?. Bell SysV Driver writing course, 1985. DOCUMENTATION: SOFTWARE: DEC OS: Heathkit H-11 paper tape operating system, papertape media and docs, new, as shipped from Heathkit. DOCUMENTATION: SOFTWARE: DEC OSs: Full set, RT-11 v2, v3, v4, partial RSX-11. Also have the software on floppy and RK05, and the PDP-11's that are licensed to run it. Also Heathkit H-11 paper tape operating system, media and docs, new. Also a couple of RSTS/E manuals. Disks also (RX01, RL01,RK05). RT-11 set, XXDP Diagnostics, on 8" RX01 floppies and paper tape.MOSTLY SOLD DOCUMENTATION: SOFTWARE: DEC OSs: Full set, RT-11 v2, v3, v4, partial RSX-11. Also have the software on floppy and RK05, and the PDP-11's that are licensed to run it. Cheap! MOSTLY SOLD DOCUMENTATION: HARDWARE: many DEC PDP-11 docs from 1970-1985 on microfiche. (Have reader too.) MOSTLY SOLD From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 4 23:44:51 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <004701be7f20$d4cf77c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> While I agree fundamentally in that you really don't have to have graphic output capabilities, to wit, I did without it for over 30 years of computer use, I don't believe there's any reason to favor the terimnal over the direct-mapped monochrome video display. It's nominally a 2000 character window that has to be managed, and whether you do it with a terminal or with a video board is strictly up to you. I personally believe that exploiting the approach of the 6545 chip is still a pregnant way to address the problem of slow video updates due to low (<24.576Mbit/sec) baud rate. as for what you find difficult to get fixed . . . (a) who cares about fixing a serial card? Another costs $3. (b) pre-vga monochrome cards and monitors abound at the thrift stores. Keyboards do as well. (c) so long as hard disk drives of the ST506 variety still abound in the thrift stores, the controllers will too. I passed on an 'AT box a week ago, which had a VGA card, a 200+ MB eide 3.5" 1/3-height hard disk, and much of the usual stuff for $10. Had there been a decent keyboard, I might have gone for it, but there'll be others next week. I figure, if I can't replace it with something similar, then I'll replace it with something more current. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 7:26 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... >> >> Again, I have to agree about the "waste-of-trees" nature of most "technical" >> documents these days. Nevertheless, I find it easier to understand the >> result of a SPICE simulation when displayed graphically, e.g. with PROBE as > >There are, agreed, times when a graphical output is essential. I'd hate >it if my logic analyeser could _only_ give a list of the input states for >each sample (although sometimes that's what I want). More often, though, >I want a timing diagram. > >My handheld 'scope has an RS232 output that'll send the samples in >memory. Seeing those as a list of values is not often useful. Plotting >them is. > >However, the fact remains that often graphical output is _not_ essential. >I can't think why it would be superior to text-only output for >programming, for example. Or text processing - I do all my word processing >using TeX on a text-only machine. WYSIWYG would add absolutely nothing. > >> I already stated that the "old" machines did the "old" and in many instances >> quite persistent tasks well, and still would, given a chance. People have >> learned, however, that it's not as beneficial to have OLD hardware as to >> have new, not because of what it will do, but what it won't. I don't mean >> that it won't break. Any hardware can fail. It's a statistical reality. > >Although, to be fair, some of the older machines were rather >over-engineered, and less likely to fail than modern PCs... > >> However, if you try to repair that old, fine, terminal you bought in the >> '80's you'll find you can't get it fixed for less than the cost of a PC. > >_get_ it fixed? I fix things (anything) myself, and will continue to do so... > >> If, however, you break your PC, there's really nothing you can't repair or >> replace for much less than the cost of the original. > >Oh yes? Where do I find an ST506 controller from, new, these days? Or if >I am using a machine that uses such a drive and the controller fails, do >I have to replace the drive _and_ restore from backups as well? That's >hardly a good idea. Ditto for any video card that isn't VGA or higher, etc > >Fact is, swapping parts in PCs is easy, provided the PC is absolutely >modern. If it's even one generation behind, you start having problems >finding parts. Maintaining an old machine, where proper docs and spares >are _still_ available is a lot easier. > >What if I am depending on some hardware feature of the old card (like the >current loop interface on the IBM Async card. Ever tried getting one of >those, or a clone? > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 4 23:57:05 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <004801be7f20$d5b8ed60$0100c0a8@fuj03> DIN41612 connectors are the type used in Multibus-II, VME and SUN, MAC-II's NuBus, etc. They have a matrix of 3 rows of 32 holes in the socket, of which you can buy connectors which only have the outer rows populated. This means that there remain 64 holes, 62 of which would be occupied by a wire-wrap (2-level) ISA-8-bit connector. This would allow placement of the "daughter" board close to the S-100 board's surface and permit fitting it into a single slot of the S-100, provided the end-plate were removed. They can be had in either straight or right-angle versions, though the right-angle normally sits on the circuit card while the straight versions are mounted to the backplane. That's why I suggested that the gender would have to be reversed. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dave Dameron To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 10:13 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... >Hi all, >At 10:52 PM 4/3/99 -0700, you wrote: >>Well . . . I did think one could get two short cards on one S-100. I did >>have something concrete in mind, too. If one inserts a wire-wrap 62 pin >>(8-bit ISA) connector into a DIN 41612 right-angle socket >>> >What do DIN 41612 connectors look like? >-Dave > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 5 01:06:35 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <0a6101be7f14$22c916f0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> (hhacker@home.com) References: <0a6101be7f14$22c916f0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: <19990405060635.29296.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Your argument, Eric, was that the microcode compiler generated code > that is equally as efficient as that you, or someone else, could have > constructed by hand. Megan in no way implies the use of assembly code. > The microcode compiler would generate an object file, which by your > own admission above, generated more code than could fit in the > memory space available. You accepted her argument that the human > was required to generate code more efficient than that produced by > the microcode compiler. You protest _too loudly_ my friend. No, I accepted her argument that for conventional machine code compiled from a conventional high-level language, a human can fairly easily generate better code. But if you had read my posting *carefully*, I specifically protested that this is *not* the same problem as compiling horizontal microcode from a specialty source language. I *still* stand by my statement. The compiler produced better code in minutes than I could have produced in three months. Your argument seems to be that a compiler can't produce better code than a human with an infinite amount of time could. I'll concede you that point. Or maybe I won't. A compiler with an infinite amount of time could have simply tried every possible combination of control store bits (for the 512*72 example, 2^36864 possibilities), and run a set of test vectors against each candidate to determine which ones meet the specifications, and of those which yields the highest overall performance. And by applying some relatively simple heuristics, the number could be reduced from 2^36864 down to a number that, while still huge, could at least be done during the remaining life of the universe. But this is irrelevant, because neither the human nor the computer has an infinite amount of time available. If my job had depended on finishing the project in question without using the compiler, the only way to do it would have been to expand the control store to 768 or 1024 words, because after spending a lot of time writing microcode by hand, it would probably have been larger than 512 words. It was the use of the compiler that allowed me the luxury of shrinking it to fit in the 512 words available. Without using the compiler, there is no way in hell that I would have had time to do such a thing. It is instructive to note that when I was trying to squeeze the 514 words down to 512, I discovered that the compiler had succeeded in combining several things that I wouldn't have easily found, because the compiler is actually *better* at doing data flow analysis than I am. That's not because the compiler is inherently more clever than I am, but because it is not subject to the Hrair (sp?) limit as I am. It's not more clever, but it's more tolerant of doing tedious recordkeeping and matching. Of course, if I had the time to meticulously do the same thing, I obviously could do at least as good a job of data flow analysis as the compiler. But in practice that's simply not going to happen. Life's too short. Most everyone in this discussion is just parroting the conventional wisdom that compilers don't generate code as compact or efficient as humans can, without considering the possibility that for specific problems and under specific constraints, they actually can be *better*. I'm absolutely willing (and eager) to concede that in the general and unconstrained case, the conventional wisdom holds true. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 5 01:39:35 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > computers, the service representative came to the site, opened a panel > > on the operator console, and changed the 5 1/4" floppy disk. By doing > > I think I read somewhere that the 8" floppy was originally designed for > this purpose. IBM invented the floppy disk to distribute microcode updates. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From hhacker at home.com Mon Apr 5 02:16:25 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture Message-ID: <0a7501be7f34$3789b070$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> >> Your argument, Eric, was that the microcode compiler generated code >> that is equally as efficient as that you, or someone else, could have >> constructed by hand. Megan in no way implies the use of assembly code. >> The microcode compiler would generate an object file, which by your >> own admission above, generated more code than could fit in the >> memory space available. You accepted her argument that the human >> was required to generate code more efficient than that produced by >> the microcode compiler. You protest _too loudly_ my friend. > Again, you used the word *assembly* and that implies my point. >No, I accepted her argument that for conventional machine code compiled from >a conventional high-level language, a human can fairly easily generate >better code. But if you had read my posting *carefully*, I specifically >protested that this is *not* the same problem as compiling horizontal >microcode from a specialty source language. > >I *still* stand by my statement. The compiler produced better code >in minutes than I could have produced in three months. Your argument seems >to be that a compiler can't produce better code than a human with an infinite >amount of time could. I'll concede you that point. Or maybe I won't. A >compiler with an infinite amount of time could have simply tried every possible >combination of control store bits (for the 512*72 example, 2^36864 >possibilities), and run a set of test vectors against each candidate to >determine which ones meet the specifications, and of those which yields >the highest overall performance. And by applying some relatively simple >heuristics, the number could be reduced from 2^36864 down to a number that, >while still huge, could at least be done during the remaining life of the >universe. But this is irrelevant, because neither the human nor the computer >has an infinite amount of time available. Halting problem (P vs NP) difficulties aside, I have never seen the situation in which the resultant output of a language translator could not be further optimised, with the exception of trivial cases. The value that you ascribe to your time, notwithstanding. >If my job had depended on finishing the project in question without using >the compiler, the only way to do it would have been to expand the control >store to 768 or 1024 words, because after spending a lot of time writing >microcode by hand, it would probably have been larger than 512 words. It is always easier for the human to find a wasteful application of resources to facilitate job completion than to hunker down and produce a quality and efficient product. Witness the ubiquitous supremacy of Windows, i.e. NT. >It was the use of the compiler that allowed me the luxury of shrinking it to >fit in the 512 words available. Without using the compiler, there is no way >in hell that I would have had time to do such a thing. You argument, again, is the value that you place on your time, and not the quality of your intellect. I maintain that the computer, no matter the skill of the algorithm, is always to fall short of human productivity. In this, I agree with such notable researchers as Roger Penrose and Douglas R. Hofstadter. Have you read Godel, Escher, and Bach: The Eternal Golden Braid? >It is instructive to note that when I was trying to squeeze the 514 words >down to 512, I discovered that the compiler had succeeded in combining >several things that I wouldn't have easily found, Here, again, you base your argument on your lack of skill and capacity, not on the limitations of algorithms. > because the compiler is >actually *better* at doing data flow analysis than I am. That's not because >the compiler is inherently more clever than I am, but because it is not >subject to the Hrair (sp?) limit as I am. It's not more clever, but it's >more tolerant With regard to self-deprication, you seem to hold the decathelon in tolerance. >of doing tedious recordkeeping and matching. Of course, if I >had the time to meticulously do the same thing, I obviously could do at least >as good a job of data flow analysis as the compiler. But in practice that's >simply not going to happen. Life's too short. I do accept that life is, indeed, too short. I, too, would not want to spend my life on a single problem, a single implementation of algorithm to the limits of optimality. That, however, is not the point. >Most everyone in this discussion is just parroting the conventional wisdom >that compilers don't generate code as compact or efficient as humans can, >without considering the possibility that for specific problems and under >specific constraints, they actually can be *better*. I'm absolutely willing >(and eager) to concede that in the general and unconstrained case, the >conventional wisdom holds true. Demonstrate a case where an algorithm provides a better solution to a translation problem, and I'll show you a case where the algorithm provides exactly the solution obtainable by a human but, no better a solution than that obtainable by a human. Your argument is that no human can perform the act of a computer, and this is shear lunacy. William R. Buckley From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 5 02:42:13 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: Probably OT: Copy-Rite duplicating machine In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990404190815.00a9e2d0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Apr 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > It's a "ditto" machine! Although Hans had a _much_ better name for it. The > original goes on the roller. Spiritsumdrucker! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 5 02:46:29 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Apr 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Actually I'm of the opinion that PDF is just about the best format out > there for documenation, although I know there are a LOT of people that > disagree with that. Are you insane? The excrutiatingly slow and bloated Microsoft Word screams compared to Acrobat. I get so antsy waiting for Acrobat to update a fricken PDF page on the screen that my head wants to explode. Unless you have the latest and greatest 500Mhz PII wonder machine, Acrobat is a farce. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 5 03:36:54 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <0a7501be7f34$3789b070$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> (hhacker@home.com) References: <0a7501be7f34$3789b070$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: <19990405083654.29654.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Again, you used the word *assembly* and that implies my point. Now you've lost me completely. You were quoting your own writing, not mine. I didn't even *mention* "assembly" in my posting, except in quoting you. > Halting problem (P vs NP) difficulties aside, In the proposed scenario, the halting problem isn't relevant. To test whether any particular tentative microcode solution is acceptable, it is only necessary to determine whether simulating its operation for a finite period of time causes it to produce the desired output, given suitable test vectors as input. It may be the case that this method rejects microcode that would produce the desired output after a longer period of time, but rejecting such "solutions" is actually beneficial and even desirable in this context. > I have never seen the situation > in which the resultant output of a language translator could not be further > optimised, with the exception of trivial cases. I've never seen the situation in which human-generated code could not be further optimized, with the exception of trivial cases. Your assertion does not contradict my claims. Of course, this brings up the issue that "trivial" is not objectively quantifiable. One could perhaps credibly argue that a trivial code sequence is one for which no further optimization is possible. I'm not taking that position, but simply pointing out the difficulty in basing arguments on non-objective statements. In point of fact, I've seen huge amounts of human-generated code that was nowhere near as optimal as code that a compiler would generate. All this proves is that neither humans nor compilers tend to produce optimal code. It says nothing about which tends to produce more optimal code. > The value that you ascribe to your time, notwithstanding. You are certainly determined to keep time out of this discussion, and it's not surprising. Since I've already conceded the infinite-time case, I propose that we restrict further discussion of this topic to the finite-time case. And in particular, since I'm not living in an ivory tower, I'd really like to restrict it to the finite-and-practical time case. Admittedly "practical" in this case is somewhat subjective, although in any given real-world scenario it can usually be quantified. > You argument, again, is the value that you place on your time, and not the > quality of your intellect. My argument is that in the real world, a solution is needed in a certain period of time. A solution that is too late is of lesser or even no value. Therefore if I can use four weeks of my time to write a compiler and two weeks to slightly tweak the output of that compiler, and thereby reach a better solution than I would after spending twelve weeks of my time working directly on the problem with no compiler, I believe it is accurate to state that the compiler generated better code than I would have by myself. > I maintain that the computer, no matter the > skill of the algorithm, is always to fall short of human productivity. > In this, I agree with such notable researchers as Roger Penrose and Douglas > R. Hofstadter. Have you read Godel, Escher, and Bach: The Eternal Golden > Braid? Yes, I have. There is nothing in the references you cite which proves or even posits that a computer can't produce a better solution than a human given a sufficiently limited problem domain. I think Penrose and Hofstadter would be surprised that you are trying to misapply their results in this manner. Penrose in particular only argues against strong AI. I happen to agree with his some of his conclusion, despite finding some of the specific arguments he uses to be flawed. As it happens, I also don't accept his premise (which he presents as a conclusion, though he gives no viable supporing evidence) that strong AI is not possible because computers aren't subject to quantum uncertainty. But we're not talking about strong AI here. We are in fact very far removed from it, since we are specifically describing a very precisely defined problem for which the correctness and merit of solutions is both objective and easily quantifiable. > Here, again, you base your argument on your lack of skill and capacity, not > on the limitations of algorithms. Yes, precisely. In my specific example, the computer has better capacity for doing data flow analysis than I do. Therefore, in this limited problem domain, the computer is *better* at a portion of the microcode generation process than I am, given a finite time limit. Another example of this would be using a computer to generate solutions to the Universal Turing Machine "busy beaver" problem, something I experimented with in Junior High School. In the general case, a human would do better than a computer at solving this problem, partially because of the halting problem. But as soon as you introduce the constraint of finding solutions with an upper bound on the number of UTM cycles, it becomes clear that a computer is *much* better at solving this problem than a human. Are you simply taking the a priori position that computers can't be better than humans at certain "intellectual" tasks because you find the concept to be offensive? > Your argument is that no human can perform the act of a computer, and this > is shear lunacy. I've never asserted anything even similar to that. Obviously it can be simply shown that a human is capable of "playing computer" and executing the same algorithm the computer would use. Therefore the worst case for the human is to do only as well as the computer, but the best case is that the human can come up with a better method than can be easily expressed as an algorithm. However, given a constraint on the available time (finite and relatively short), it is entirely possible that the human will *not* come up with as good a solution as the computer. As I keep stating and restating, my position is that for a limited problem domain and a limited available time, a computer may be able to produce a better solution than a human. What part of this is it so difficult for you to understand or accept? In this case, I'm stating that the microcode compiler (which I spent four weeks developing) produced better output in a few minutes than I could have generated without it in ten weeks. Therefore, by any reasonable metric the compiler did in fact produce better code than the human, since ten weeks were not available. I'm sure we've bored everyone else to tears with this discussion. Since you insist on presenting arguments that don't apply to the limited time constraint, which is the only case in controversy, I suggest we take any further discussion of this list. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 5 03:38:11 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:46:29 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19990405083811.29664.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Are you insane? The excrutiatingly slow and bloated Microsoft Word > screams compared to Acrobat. Not when the Word file contains 300 DPI scanned images. From pjoules at joules.enterprise-plc.com Sun Apr 4 04:04:44 1999 From: pjoules at joules.enterprise-plc.com (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! References: <199904040412.UAA09246@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <37072B2C.E948F962@joules.enterprise-plc.com> Derek Peschel wrote: > > (Other old computer languages still in use are FORTRAN and COBOL, but I don't > think the reasons for using them are so good.) > I used to think that COBOL was old hat unitl I actually had to use it for a project during my degree. I was very impressed with its simmple syntax and easy data handling, but I haven't come across a better database handling language than another one which I had to use at University - RPG, it is just a pity that OS/400 is so cryptic ;-) Regards Pete From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 5 03:45:54 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <19990405083811.29664.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 5 Apr 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > > Are you insane? The excrutiatingly slow and bloated Microsoft Word > > screams compared to Acrobat. > > Not when the Word file contains 300 DPI scanned images. Still, the point is they're both slow and annoying and I hate them both. Ok, I do like the very beautiful formatted pages that can be had with PDF, but its just too slow and bloated to be useful to me at this juncture in my computer technology arsenal. I would probably like PDF more as the preferred format for old computer documentation if I had like a dual Pentium II 450 system with scads of hard drive storage, a superfast graphics accelerator, coupled with my super-fast cable modem connection to the internet. But the fact is I don't, and not many other people do either. If Adobe could make the page updates 100% faster and the storage requirements 100% smaller then they'd have a true breakthru. I guess they're like Microschlock, waiting for the hardware to catch up to the code bloat. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Apr 5 04:17:08 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: References: <19990405083811.29664.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: >On 5 Apr 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > >> > Are you insane? The excrutiatingly slow and bloated Microsoft Word >> > screams compared to Acrobat. >> >> Not when the Word file contains 300 DPI scanned images. > >Still, the point is they're both slow and annoying and I hate them both. > >Ok, I do like the very beautiful formatted pages that can be had with PDF, >but its just too slow and bloated to be useful to me at this juncture in >my computer technology arsenal. I would probably like PDF more as the >preferred format for old computer documentation if I had like a dual >Pentium II 450 system with scads of hard drive storage, a superfast >graphics accelerator, coupled with my super-fast cable modem connection to >the internet. But the fact is I don't, and not many other people do >either. I am using a Mac 7200/90 (90 mhz PPC 601) with the graphics built into the motherboard, and I have been reading a lot of .pdf files lately (manuals etc.). Its not flipping pages in a book, but I don't see it as that slow. Typical is what I would call the speed. An accurate manual is SUCH a nice thing to have, a little slow I can live with. From hhacker at home.com Mon Apr 5 04:24:22 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture Message-ID: <0aee01be7f46$17c187b0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 8:03 PM Subject: Re: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture >Megan wrote: >> well put... I've yet to find a compiler which can produce code which >> could not then be further optimized in some way by a person well >> versed in that machine's architecture... > >Yes, but if you paid attention to the original claim, you would see that >I asserted that it was true for horizontal microcode with large amounts >of data dependency. This is *very* different than trying to compile C >(or Pascal, or Bliss, or whatever) for a typical architecture (which more >closely resembles vertical microcode). > >One of the systems I microcoded had 512 words of control store (of about >72 bits each), and running my microprogram source code through the compiler >produced 514 words of microinstructions. With about two weeks of >concentrated effort, I was able to eventually squeeze out two >microinstructions. Total development time: 6 weeks. > >If I had tried to write all of the microcode in "assembly", it would have taken >me longer to write, and it probably would have been *bigger* on the first >pass. And I still would have had to spend a lot of time on hand optimization. >I think this would have taken at least 12 weeks of development time, although >since I didn't do it that way I'll never know. And, from your most recent posting: >> Again, you used the word *assembly* and that implies my point. > >Now you've lost me completely. You were quoting your own writing, not >mine. I didn't even *mention* "assembly" in my posting, except in quoting >you. > >> Halting problem (P vs NP) difficulties aside,> Is this use of the word "assembly" not yours? I, sir, am quoting you, not me! > >I've never seen the situation in which human-generated code could not be >further optimized, with the exception of trivial cases. Your assertion >does not contradict my claims. Of course, this brings up the issue that >"trivial" is not objectively quantifiable. One could perhaps credibly argue >that a trivial code sequence is one for which no further optimization is >possible. I'm not taking that position, but simply pointing out the >difficulty in basing arguments on non-objective statements. > >In point of fact, I've seen huge amounts of human-generated code that was >nowhere near as optimal as code that a compiler would generate. > >All this proves is that neither humans nor compilers tend to produce >optimal code. It says nothing about which tends to produce more optimal >code. > The fact that an individual program is incapable of producing superior code, relative to optimality, only serves to indicate that humans suffer a greater degree of falability vis-a-vis the computer, which as you said is quite happy to act on tedium. That says nothing about the general case that humans have superior intellectual capacity vis-a-vis the computer. After all, who invented what? This discussion is founded upon your statement: >> Maximisation of processor throughput, and minimization of >> microinstruction count, is at least half the purpose of microprogramming. > >Sure. And the microcode compilers I've written and used are much better >at optimizing horizontal microcode than I have the time or patience to do >by hand. > >> For such optimisation to be effected, on must necessarily write directly >> in microcode, either bit and byte streams, or coded as in assembly >> languages. > >No, it doesn't. Microcode almost always has a lot of data dependencies, >which means that a compiler can often do as well as a human at optimizing >it. > And yet, you argue against yourself with: >... when I was trying to squeeze the 514 words down to 512, I ... Herein, you admit that your personal skills quite outweighed those of the algorithm that you constructed for the purpose of compiling a high-level code into a particular microcode. Recall: >Sure. And the microcode compilers I've written and used are much better >at optimizing horizontal microcode than I have the time or patience to do >by hand. Also, recall: >Therefore if I can use four weeks of my time to write a compiler and two weeks >to slightly tweak the output of that compiler ... So, we are agreed that a human has greater capacity for the preparation of optimal code. I conceed the notion of sufficient time to complete a task. What you have failed to address is that the human intellect is not limited by the capacity to algorithmatise a solution. Hence, P vs. NP, GEB, and in particular, the notions of Godel: that within any axiomatic system, the answers to some positable questions are indeterminable. Humans have the capacity to make judgements by means outside of those mathematical and logical, hence the reference to Penrose. For all the nit-picky details of the works of these masters, the points they make are far grander. The real value of their works is not kept solely within the realm from which their conclusions emerge, but within which such conclusions find additional value. William R. Buckley From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 5 04:40:40 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <199904050940.AA13643@world.std.com> On 31 Mar 99 at 18:18, Mike Ford wrote: > M0487 Small, no function or direction keys, and indents on both sides of > the rear where the ADB plugs are. Sorry, no IIgs handy at work to check the part number. However... The M0487 is the model which first shipped with the Mac Classic and LC. It is is the successor to the M0116 which was supplied with the SE series (the M0116 again has no function keys but the frame surrounding the keys is rectangular and generally more conventional in shape). Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14@le.ac.uk From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Apr 5 06:28:46 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: OT: early rising (was: RE: Timonium Hamfest) In-Reply-To: <80256746.005AB891.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <199904051128.VAA07105@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 17:23 01/04/99 +0100, Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: >Like, I imagine, most people on this list, I do not regard myself as sane. Me too (referring to myself of course). >That said, I think the morning is a sadly under-rated time of day. My alarm >clock goes off at 6 am whether I need to go to work or not. I get up any time >between 6.00 and 7.15 on work days, 6.00 and 8.00 on other days. It is not >quite random - if I have been short of sleep lately, or am in the middle of a >good book, I tend to get up later. > >And I find it quite hard to do anything remotely involving the brain after 10pm. > >Am I really that unusual? Well, I used to be in the "no point in getting up before noon" computer group, now I'm in the 7am start, 11pm finish crowd. Why? FOD/FOG (FOD = Fear of Death, FOG = Fear of God). It's amazing what you can do when your cardiologist points out that heart attacks are inherited and that you've reached "the age". I now get up and gym three days a week and swim a couple of others. If I could find a hamfest in Melbourne I could be one of those there early... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Apr 5 06:47:10 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199904051147.VAA07114@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 20:29 01/04/99 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: >I don't mind the "Compaq" where the "digital" used to be, it's the "Compaq >OpenVMS" I find sick! How egotistical! Personally I think this is a "good thing". Over the last few years (certainly since Ken left and probably a little before) the Digital/DEC brand name became tarnished (to say the least). The best thing that Compaq could do (in a marketing sense) is to get rid of the Digital brand name. I just hope they manage to keep the Digital engineering philosophy/people. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Apr 5 07:28:28 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990404091041.00a1f200@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <199904051228.WAA07214@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 11:47 04/04/99 -0400, Max Eskin wrote: >And same with Pascal? But why would anyone >want something that was microcoded to run Pascal? Are there any other >languages that have gotten microcoded into a processor? Us Pascal freaks, that's who :-) The Pascal Microengine was a hardware implementation of P-code a stack based instruction set that was designed to make compilation from Pascal into it easy. The original compiler (P4) was written by Urs Amman (sp?) at ETH. I believe that this compiler formed the basis of the UCSD Pascal environment which was Java '70s style :-) One of the more seminal articles I remember reading in Byte was by Carl Helmers discussing how he'd just spent $5K on an Apple II to run UCSD Pascal. It was then I realized that micros would one day do the same amount of work that "real" computers did. One of my (non-existent) spare time projects is to get the Apple II in the cupboard up and running UCSD Pascal. All I need is the Language Card and the software (I think). Talking about Pascal compilers I seem to recall a multi (10?) pass Pascal compiler for (probably) RT-11. Anyone else recall this? Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Apr 5 08:00:26 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: References: <19990404235252.27649.qmail@brouhaha.com> <199904042327.QAA11238@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <199904051300.XAA07279@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 18:18 04/04/99 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: >Really? Hmmm, I guess I should try 'xv' on a Linux box, instead of a >RS/6000. I guess I'll give this a try tonite, if I can find the time. Well I just downloaded the first part of the PDP8/e/f/m Maintenance manual onto my AlphaNT box and had no difficulty reading the TIFF file using the "standard" NT imaging program. Sadly NT imaging doesn't allow you to save into a different format but I'll try that tomorrow at work on a linux box (can't really do this from home as I don't seem to have a Excursion installed any more...) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 5 08:45:49 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <199904051228.WAA07214@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: > environment which was Java '70s style :-) One of the more seminal articles > I remember reading in Byte was by Carl Helmers discussing how he'd just > spent $5K on an Apple II to run UCSD Pascal. It was then I realized that > micros would one day do the same amount of work that "real" computers did. In the spring of 1978 I purchsed UCSD P-system for NS*. I paid $50 for it then and still have it to day. It's use was inspired by a friends H11 running it and my taking a data structures course that was in pascal. It was indeed useful and compared to the univac1180 I could do hours of work in minutes do to not having to do the 029 batch submission dance. I am presently rebuilding a stock NS* horizon to once again run ucsd Psystem. > compiler for (probably) RT-11. Anyone else recall this? Micropower pascal, it was used to support embedded applications on the Falcon card (T-11 dual width with ram, rom, io). Allison From emu at ecubics.com Mon Apr 5 09:16:05 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <19990405141501.AAA11338@1Cust189.tnt21.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi, ---------- > From: Tony Duell > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... > Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 10:49 AM > True. But AFAIK the AT keyboard host interface was never implemented in > TTL (it always used a programmed 8042 microcontroller), so it's a little > harder to build from scratch. We used on our mc68000 boards a 68681 DUART & and some inverters as a keyboard interface for xt/at. Was very simple. If anybody needs it, i could dig it out again. cheers, emanuel From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Apr 5 09:23:10 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: Is this normal? ODT Question Message-ID: <990405102310.212001f0@trailing-edge.com> >So I've got a Q-bus system with 64KW (128KB) of RAM that is allegedly an 18 >bit backplane. When I'm in ODT I can type: > >@177770/ >And enter values for 1777772, 1777774, 1777776, and then it wraps around to >000000. > >If I start at 200000 it works until 3777777 and then wraps to 2000000. So >it seems to not cross a 64KB boundary. That's how it's supposed to work. If you look in the tech manual for the processors, you see that there's a 16-bit register for the "low" part of the ODT address, and another register for the high part of the ODT address, but there's no carry connecting the two. > Also the boot area is 177300 ? so it >is in the upper 4K of the 64KB address space, is it legal to have memory >"above" the I/O page? Absolutely. In fact, some configurations had only a 2Kbyte I/O page to allow a little bit of extra memory, and this still works (albeit not officially supported) under RT-11 (it was tested before the 5.7 release.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Apr 4 20:58:49 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: RLV11/RL02 ->11/73? In-Reply-To: <990404142511.212000e2@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990404205032.00a1c9f0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 02:25 PM 4/4/99 -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com said something like: >>>The field guide claims at its top: >>> >>>*This list may always be found on sunsite.unc.edu, in the following >>>*directory: >>>*/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/field-guide.txt > >>But for how long will sunsite.unc.edu resolve to metalab.unc.edu? > >Probably forever :-). Still, I should fix it up with the new >"sanitized" name. > >It was only a few weeks ago that I thoroughly replaced my "triumf.ca" >address on the web pages there... Hi Tim, when will the Feb 1995 version of the field guide be replaced by a newer version, be it from Ron Copley or the version Megan has been working on? Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From emu at ecubics.com Mon Apr 5 10:11:52 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: PDF vs Postscript, was Re: bringing up an 8f... Message-ID: <19990405151047.AAA4392@1Cust189.tnt21.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi, ---------- > From: Zane H. Healy > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: bringing up an 8f... > Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 8:18 PM > > Actually I'm of the opinion that PDF is just about the best format out > there for documenation, although I know there are a LOT of people that > disagree with that. I prefer postscript. There are many tools to view the stuff, print it, or change. Most of the time i like to print the documents, but i always reformat them. (something like 2 pages on one pages, landscape format , duplex print) simply not to waste so much paper. only my .002 $ cheers, emanuel From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 5 10:17:01 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <0aee01be7f46$17c187b0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Buck Savage wrote: > And yet, you argue against yourself with: > > >... when I was trying to squeeze the 514 words down to 512, I ... > > Herein, you admit that your personal skills quite outweighed those of the > algorithm that you constructed for the purpose of compiling a high-level > code into a particular microcode. Recall: <...more pointless rebuttals...> Look, Buck, you're arguing this entirely mundane point beyond the point of relevance. Its one thing to beat a dead yak, and its quite another to continue to beat it with every implement at your disposal until its carcass is a pile of organic sludge. Not only that but you are foolishly missing Eric's point (or at least ignoring it) just to prove yours. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 5 10:21:40 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <199904051228.WAA07214@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Huw Davies wrote: > ETH. I believe that this compiler formed the basis of the UCSD Pascal > environment which was Java '70s style :-) One of the more seminal articles Just to stickle, it should really be the other way around: Java is UCSD Pascal 90's style. > One of my (non-existent) spare time projects is to get the Apple II in the > cupboard up and running UCSD Pascal. All I need is the Language Card and > the software (I think). That's it. Really, any Apple ][ (Apple ][, Apple ][+, Apple //e, Apple //c, Apple //c+, Apple //gs) with at least 64K will run UCSD (Apple) Pascal. I've got the OS if you ever get around to wanting it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From bill at chipware.com Mon Apr 5 10:25:05 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401be7f78$7b0d8800$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Are you insane? The excrutiatingly slow and bloated Microsoft Word > screams compared to Acrobat. I get so antsy waiting for Acrobat to update > a fricken PDF page on the screen that my head wants to explode. > > Unless you have the latest and greatest 500Mhz PII wonder machine, Acrobat > is a farce. Not to mention that the Acrobat user interface _SUCKS_! From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Apr 5 10:33:48 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:48 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... Message-ID: <990405113348.212001f0@trailing-edge.com> >> Are you insane? The excrutiatingly slow and bloated Microsoft Word >> screams compared to Acrobat. I get so antsy waiting for Acrobat to update >> a fricken PDF page on the screen that my head wants to explode. >> >> Unless you have the latest and greatest 500Mhz PII wonder machine, Acrobat >> is a farce. >Not to mention that the Acrobat user interface _SUCKS_! There are several alternatives to Acrobat. I'm quite familiar with them because there are no Acrobat binaries for any of the architectures that I commonly use. 1. Any Ghostscript release from the past few years does PDF quite nicely. You have a choice of a command line interface (very useful for doing batch conversions from PDF to something more usable) or a point-and-drool shell ("GhostView", aka "gv"). Ghostscript is available for many platforms, it is independent of any specific windowing system, and it is quite usable on platforms which lack graphic displays at all. For details, see http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/ 2. XPDF, which only does PDF (unlike Ghostscript which does postscript as well) and only can display on X-windows screens, is also available. See http://www.foolabs.com/xpdf/ Personally, I think Postscript is a better "high-level" approach to describing page layout than PDF is, but I also understand the commercial reasons that force Adobe to push PDF instead. I've been having a blast lately doing my own printed circuit board layout in Postscript, incidentally :-). Bezier splines, here we come! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Apr 5 10:44:46 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoffrey D. Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... Message-ID: <003301be7f7b$3d8b5900$f17d38cb@ppp.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 6 April 1999 00:55 Subject: RE: bringing up an 8f... >Not to mention that the Acrobat user interface _SUCKS_! Agreed. I'd be a darn sight happier with a simple text file, or even html. I can read that even on a Vax with a VT100 and Lynx. Acrobat is somewhat tedious to manipulate. And I hate having to zoom on text that's too small to read. Just my $0.02 worth as well. Cheers Geoff Roberts From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 5 10:45:18 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: PDF vs Postscript, was Re: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <19990405151047.AAA4392@1Cust189.tnt21.dfw5.da.uu.net> from "emanuel stiebler" at Apr 5, 99 09:11:52 am Message-ID: <199904051545.IAA10264@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/aef53653/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 5 10:47:33 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: OT: early rising (was: RE: Timonium Hamfest) References: <199904051128.VAA07105@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <3708DB15.6922741C@rain.org> Huw Davies wrote: > > At 17:23 01/04/99 +0100, Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > > >That said, I think the morning is a sadly under-rated time of day. My alarm > >clock goes off at 6 am whether I need to go to work or not. I get up any > time > > Well, I used to be in the "no point in getting up before noon" computer > group, now I'm in the 7am start, 11pm finish crowd. Why? FOD/FOG (FOD = > Fear of Death, FOG = Fear of God). It's amazing what you can do when your > cardiologist points out that heart attacks are inherited and that you've > reached "the age". I now get up and gym three days a week and swim a couple > of others. If I could find a hamfest in Melbourne I could be one of those > there early... Yes, it is amazing what practical "education" can do! When I had a quint. bypass a little over a year ago, some practical education set in :). I rather suspect that age has something to do with becoming more a morning person, and I also was able to sleep in to noon years ago without much effort. I am still a night person, but it takes some effort to sleep much later than 8am or so. BTW, are you saying indirectly that they don't hold hamfests in Melbourne, or that you can't find one? From emu at ecubics.com Mon Apr 5 10:52:53 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... Message-ID: <19990405155148.AAA24990@1Cust189.tnt21.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi, ---------- > From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: bringing up an 8f... > Date: Monday, April 05, 1999 9:33 AM > I've been having a blast lately doing my own printed circuit board layout > in Postscript, incidentally :-). Bezier splines, here we come! But even then, having a layout in postscript for refrerence reasons is nice. A quad qbus board doesn't fit on a letter format, but a "resize to fit" do, what is really nice, if you try to document some rewiring.. cheers, emanuel From kees.stravers at iae.nl Mon Apr 5 11:05:00 1999 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: Thoughts on Taking Inventory Message-ID: <19990405160500.DFEC120F0A@iaehv.iae.nl> On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:56:42 -0500, mbg@world.std.com (Megan) said: >>I'd also have a "shadow" page that showed the outlines of the "standard" >>bus types so that boards could be identified by their outline. > >Kind of line the charts 'plane-spotters' used... > >I'll go that one better... I've been thinking of taking pictures (now >that I have a digital camera) of one each of all the qbus boards I >have in my stock, so that people can see what they look like. [This reaction is a bit late, I'm slowly catching up on my classiccmp reading] I think this is an excellent idea! It can even be done without a digital camera for the dual- and quad wide boards, just lay them face-down on a flatbed scanner! This is a lot quicker and the resulting images look just fine. I did this for the images of the RQDX boards on my RQDX page at You can see that the boards look great in the images. (Click on the small images to see larger ones.) If you have the time to scan the boards, but not the room on your web page to post them, I can store them on VAXarchive. In fact, if everyone that has a few DEC boards lying about, would scan them and email me the resulting JPG's, I would have a 'visual field guide' online in no time :) Kees. -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ I'm Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - Visit VAXarchive! http://www.vaxarchive.org/ (primary) http://www.sevensages.org/vax/ (mirror) http://www.coyote.org/mirrors/vaxarchive/ (mirror) From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Apr 5 11:22:25 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <37072B2C.E948F962@joules.enterprise-plc.com> from "Peter Joules" at Apr 4, 99 10:04:44 am Message-ID: <199904051622.JAA21632@saul2.u.washington.edu> Peter Joules wrote: > Derek Peschel wrote: > > (Other old computer languages still in use are FORTRAN and COBOL, but I don't > > think the reasons for using them are so good.) > I used to think that COBOL was old hat unitl I actually had to use it > for a project during my degree. I was very impressed with its simmple > syntax and easy data handling, but I haven't come across a better > database handling language than another one which I had to use at > University - RPG, it is just a pity that OS/400 is so cryptic ;-) I was going to mention RPG in my original post but I changed my mind. I don't think it's quite as old as COBOL and FORTRAN. Some of IBM's development environments are called "VisualAge". There is a VisualAge Smalltalk and a VisualAge Java (written in VisualAge Smalltalk :)). Well, there's also a VisualAge RPG. I find that quite ironic considering the utter opacity of RPG. As for OS/400, all you have to do is use the ELMCRPF command... Eliminate Cryptic Features. What? You can't find it? Well, I don't have any other suggestions then. :) -- Derek From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 5 11:22:51 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <000401be7f78$7b0d8800$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: RE: viewers since I started this let me explain. I'm not netted with linux yet.. I don't have a graphic head on the VMS hardware. So PC is the platform of choice running Windows3.. This means that freeware or shareware must run win3.1 and not win95. Acrobat, FullView and PSP are amoung the viewers I happen to have. The Highgate page uses one of two viewers that are available as shareware but only for win95... or for $100 I can get teh version that also runs under win31. Inshort there is no free viewer that would not cost less than the cost of having a 8e prinst copied professionally. Additionally since the tiffs are unviewable at resonable cost even an unreasonable viewer like acrobat is quite acceptable. Actually using w31 and acrobat is pretty snappy. Keep in mind that a slow viewer beats none at all. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 5 11:26:28 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <990405113348.212001f0@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > 1. Any Ghostscript release from the past few years does PDF quite nicely. > You have a choice of a command line interface (very useful for doing > batch conversions from PDF to something more usable) or a point-and-drool > shell ("GhostView", aka "gv"). Ghostscript is available for many platforms, > it is independent of any specific windowing system, and it is quite usable > on platforms which lack graphic displays at all. For details, see This works really nice under W31 and is fairly fast too. It also allows for some nifty printing hacks! As I remember now ghostscript also can digest TIFF... have to try that out. Allison From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 5 11:27:49 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: UCSD Pascal In-Reply-To: <199904051228.WAA07214@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> References: <4.1.19990404091041.00a1f200@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990405112749.0113a600@vpwisfirewall> At 10:28 PM 4/5/99 +1000, Huw Davies wrote: > >The Pascal Microengine was a hardware implementation of P-code a stack >based instruction set that was designed to make compilation from Pascal >into it easy. The original compiler (P4) was written by Urs Amman (sp?) at >ETH. I believe that this compiler formed the basis of the UCSD Pascal >environment which was Java '70s style :-) My UCSD Pascal history page, including a vital 1973 source code contribution from Huw, is at . As I point out on my page, even Prof. Nicklaus Wirth may not have a copy of his original compiler source code. Later he did find a CDC 6400 7-track mag tape that may hold the source, but he's unable to find a machine to read it. If anyone can help with this project, that would be great! Sellam wrote: >> ETH. I believe that this compiler formed the basis of the UCSD Pascal >> environment which was Java '70s style :-) One of the more seminal articles > >Just to stickle, it should really be the other way around: Java is UCSD >Pascal 90's style. Well, the Java virtual machine uses p-code techniques, but it contains many other concepts not found in the P System. And of course, the virtual machine has little to do with the languages that generate it. - John From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Apr 5 11:57:37 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: Single-Density PC-clone floppy controllers Message-ID: <990405125737.212001f0@trailing-edge.com> For those who are putting together single-density-capable systems for use on a PC-clone (with Teledisk, 22Disk, and the like), they may find these articles from comp.os.cpm several months ago useful (or they may have additional data and/or contradicting data, which will be useful to the rest of us.) Enjoy! -Tim. Single Density on a PC (was Re: 22Disk and CompatiCard) Author: Amardeep S. Chana Date: 1998/12/30 Forum: comp.os.cpm Ken Ganshirt wrote in article <36899CB0.19AD9093@sk.sympatico.ca>... > > I must have a pretty decent floppy controller, because I can even read > my original SS/SD Os-1 floppies, even though 22Disk warns that it might > not work for that format. (For the technically curious, this is on a > Dell 486/50 running Win 95 and the floppy drive is one of those deals > that has both a 3.5 and 5.25 in a single half-height drive. It's the > only system I have left with a 5.25" floppy drive.) > Ken, I recently did a study to find out what will and what won't do single density. Here are my findings so far: Will support single density / FM: NS PC87306 Super I/O SMC FDC37C65 SMC FDC37C78 Most SMC Super I/O chips Will NOT support single density / FM: NS 8473 NS PC87332* Super I/O NS PC97307* Super I/O WD FDC37C65 Most (if not all) Intel parts Any Winbond part Any UMC part Reportedly will do single density / FM but NOT verified: NS 8477 Intel 82077AA Goldstar Super I/O The NS PC87306 is found in a lot of Dell and Compaq machines from the 486-50Mhz models to the Pentium-90 models. Most Super Micro Pentium motherboards using the PCI HX chipset also used that super I/O. *NOTE: It is important to verify the part number on the chip itself. Many of these newer NS parts will identify themselves to software as PC87306, but do NOT support single density. Best regards, Amardeep _________________________________________________________________ Re: Single Density on a PC (was Re: 22Disk and CompatiCard) Author: Amardeep S. Chana Date: 1998/12/31 Forum: comp.os.cpm Don Maslin wrote in article <915064276.933215@optional.cts.com>... [snip] > > Amardeep, I fear that I must question your study. I believe that you > are ascribing to some of the chips the shortcomings of the FDC > manufacturer. For example, both the NS 8473 and the WD 37C65 will > most assuredly support FM. I have DTK FDC cards with the 8473 and > read Osborne 1 disks with them just prior to writing this. Likewise, > I have the WD 37C65 in the WD FOX card and it will also read/write > FM. On that basis, I must have reservations about some of your other > determinations. > - don > Hi Don, I understand your reservations and can address every issue. I did not go into enough detail in the first posting to fully support my assertions. > : Will support single density / FM: > > : NS PC87306 Super I/O > : SMC FDC37C65 > : SMC FDC37C78 > : Most SMC Super I/O chips > The above parts are completely stand alone with on board filters, write precomp generators, and data separators. They should work with FM in any board implementation, unless something specific is done to prevent it (not likely). This is per the National and SMSC (new name for SMC semiconductor) data sheets. I have tested the NS PC87306 and SMC FDC37C65 using Jeff Vavasour's Model 4 emulator and Tim Mann's xtrs 2.8 under Linux. They both read and write FM with no problems. > : Will NOT support single density / FM: > > : NS 8473 > : NS PC87332* Super I/O > : NS PC97307* Super I/O > : WD FDC37C65 > : Most (if not all) Intel parts > : Any Winbond part > : Any UMC part > The 1988 data sheet for the NS 8473 states on page 8-32, "While the controller and data separator support both FM and MFM encoding, the filter switch circuitry only supports the IBM standard MFM data rates. To provide both FM and MFM filters external logic may be necessary." Every 8473 board I have tried failed to write FM. However, it may be possible to read FM on some boards if the external filters have a wide enough Q. The NS PC87332 & NS PC97307 are standalone and by design do not support FM (verified on the National data sheets). The only information I have on the WD FDC37C65 is the Always IN2000 card I have with that chip cannot read or write FM. I suspect it is also dependent on implementation. I have new information on Intel... Intel 8272 is a NEC 765 clone and therefore dependent on implementation . Intel 82077AA and 82077SL - data sheet clearly states these parts suppo rt FM. Thanks to Pete Cervasio for testing and reporting that the 82077 does indeed read and write FM. Intel 82078 - data sheet clearly states these parts will NOT support FM . I haven't yet investigated the new Intel Super I/O chip which is replacing the 82078. The Winbond and UMC chips have never worked on any adapter or motherboard I've ever encountered them on. No idea if its the chip or the implementation. > : Reportedly will do single density / FM but NOT verified: > > : NS 8477 > : Intel 82077AA > : Goldstar Super I/O > The NS 8477 data sheet indicates that it does support FM (it is functionally and pin for pin compatible with the Intel 82077). The Goldstar Super I/O was reported to work with FM in a newsgroup posting I read once but have never been able to confirm it. Hope that clarifies things :) Amardeep -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Apr 5 12:23:03 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <199904050940.AA13716@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990405100857.03d50d30@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 05:40 AM 4/5/99 -0400, Allison J Parent wrote: >The last 8e pannel I worked with was also ttl. there may have been two >versions (very likely). Actually you can date '8s by their front panels ;-) The original PDP-8/E panel used diodes and a separate lamp supply. At some point (between 1970 and 1972) it was re-designed to use TTL and at the same time the need for the separate lamp supply was removed, later the lamp sockets were rewired to accept LEDs (lamps burn out a lot), and then later still (about 1972+) the LEDs were wired directly on to the panel. I believe, but have not had a true digit confirm, that the 8/F was named such because the panel had evolved to the point where it no longer looked like an "E". Clearly the front panel graphics were redesigned a bit but not much else. The 8/M is exactly the 8/F with a different decal plate and switch colors (the light and dark hues are exactly reversed) [If you look at Megan's picture of the 'haul' you can see this in the 8/e and 8/f] Anyway, if you've got a TTL front panel they are all pretty much the same. The 8/e/f/m printset only describes this panel. --Chuck From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Apr 5 12:21:54 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: UCSD Pascal In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990405112749.0113a600@vpwisfirewall> from John Foust at "Apr 5, 1999 11:27:49 am" Message-ID: <199904051721.RAA23958@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > At 10:28 PM 4/5/99 +1000, Huw Davies wrote: > > > >The Pascal Microengine was a hardware implementation of P-code a stack > >based instruction set that was designed to make compilation from Pascal > >into it easy. The original compiler (P4) was written by Urs Amman (sp?) at > >ETH. I believe that this compiler formed the basis of the UCSD Pascal > >environment which was Java '70s style :-) > > My UCSD Pascal history page, including a vital 1973 source code > contribution from Huw, is at . > > As I point out on my page, even Prof. Nicklaus Wirth may not have > a copy of his original compiler source code. Later he did find a > CDC 6400 7-track mag tape that may hold the source, but he's unable > to find a machine to read it. If anyone can help with this project, > that would be great! > Of course, I located the source to pdp8 Pascal some years ago, which is modified P4 (Urs Ammann, Kesav Nori, Christain Jacobi). I gave it to someone to put on a pdp8 ftp site, and of course I still have the code. -Lawrence (and you thought I only did Teraks) LeMay From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Apr 5 12:29:50 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (roblwill@usaor.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC disk drive questions Message-ID: <199904051729.NAA04498@pisces.tcg.sgi.net> According to the jumper settings on the 5150, it appears that 4 floppy drives can be connected to the computer.  How is this possible?  I'm guessing 2 internal, and two external, but there's only one connector for an external drive, so it would only allow 3 drives. Or is there a special controller that has dual external ports? Any suggestions? ThAnX, --          -Jason Willgruber        (roblwill@usaor.net)            ICQ#: 1730318 From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Apr 5 15:22:46 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: IBM PC disk drive questions Message-ID: <01be7fa2$11804100$568ea6d1@the-general> According to the jumper settings on the 5150, it appears that 4 floppy drives can be connected to the computer. How is this possible? I'm guessing 2 internal, and two external, but there's only one connector for an external drive, so it would only allow 3 drives. Or is there a special controller that has dual external ports? Any suggestions? ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Mon Apr 5 12:43:42 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: IBM PC disk drive questions In-Reply-To: <01be7fa2$11804100$568ea6d1@the-general> from Jason Willgruber at "Apr 5, 99 01:22:46 pm" Message-ID: <199904051743.NAA01573@hiway1.exit109.com> > According to the jumper settings on the 5150, it appears that 4 floppy > drives can be connected to the computer. How is this possible? I'm > guessing 2 internal, and two external, but there's only one connector for an > external drive, so it would only allow 3 drives. > Or is there a special controller that has dual external ports? Or a 2-drive cable for the external connector? <<>> From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 5 12:58:41 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990405125841.010d8100@vpwisfirewall> At 12:46 AM 4/5/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Are you insane? The excrutiatingly slow and bloated Microsoft Word >screams compared to Acrobat. I get so antsy waiting for Acrobat to update >a fricken PDF page on the screen that my head wants to explode. I suspect it's like PostScript, or metafiles, or executable code in general: it all depends on what's generating the PDF file. Some PDFs are apparently just bitmaps, others a mix of text and bitmap, others just text. The existence of a PDF print driver doesn't mean what goes through it will be the best. - John From donm at cts.com Mon Apr 5 13:25:33 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <0a7501be7f34$3789b070$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Buck Savage wrote: ________O/_______ O\ > > You argument, again, is the value that you place on your time, and not the > quality of your intellect. I maintain that the computer, no matter the > skill > of the algorithm, is always to fall short of human productivity. In this, I Gee! You mean that we as a society are spending all this time and all this money on something that does NOT improve human productivity. How disappointing! ________O/_______ O\ From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 5 13:52:04 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990405100857.03d50d30@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: > the separate lamp supply was removed, later the lamp sockets were rewired > to accept LEDs (lamps burn out a lot), and then later still (about 1972+) > the LEDs were wired directly on to the panel. I believe, but have not had a > true digit confirm, that the 8/F was named such because the panel had > evolved to the point where it no longer looked like an "E". Clearly the As an exDIGIT and having a 8F (stamped feb 1973) this is indeed true. > The 8/e/f/m printset only describes this panel. The CS is 54-09968-xx is the same for all late 8e/f/m machines. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 5 13:56:19 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <0aee01be7f46$17c187b0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> (hhacker@home.com) References: <0aee01be7f46$17c187b0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: <19990405185619.32115.qmail@brouhaha.com> [I'd suggested that we take this discussion off the list. I'm continuing to reply here in this case only because I don't want people to get the incorrect idea that Godel's Incompleteness Theorem can be used to magically explain away any philosophical problem regarding computers.] > Is this use of the word "assembly" not yours? I, sir, am quoting you, not > me! OK, that one was mine. It wasn't in the context you originally quoted, or even from the same message you quoted (<19990405060635.29296.qmail@brouhaha.com>). I had used it three hours earlier in the discussion (<19990405030452.28640.qmail@brouhaha.com>). So perhaps you see why I didn't understand what you were complaining about. It is customary to include a brief quote of the actual context you are referring to. > That says nothing about the general case > that humans have superior intellectual capacity vis-a-vis the computer. In the general case, I've never claimed that they do. I've only claimed that in a sufficiently limited problem domain with a time limit (i.e., the solution value vs. time curve is a flat with a sharp drop to zero), a computer may reach a better solution than a human would. I also claim that this is true for other common solution value vs. time curves; if the solution is worth $x today but only $x/2 tomorrow, the computer may produce a more valuable solution than would a human. > What you have failed to address is that the human intellect is not limited > by the capacity to algorithmatise a solution. [and later:] > Humans have the capacity to make judgements by means outside of those > mathematical and logical, hence the reference to Penrose. Sure. A human may proceed in a manner that is not based upon logical deduction or any (obvious) deterministic algorithm. It is yet to be proven that this human ability (as manifested in complex problem-solving) is not equivalent to a non-deterministic algorithm, or even to a sufficiently complex deterministic system. Penrose claims that quantum uncertaintly is necessary to intelligence. While he provides insufficient proof of this claim (really just anecdotal evidence), as an argument against machine intelligence it is a red herring, since it is not especially difficult to build a system that uses quantum uncertainty to influence nondeterministic algorithms. > in particular, the notions of Godel: that within any axiomatic system, th > answers to some positable questions are indeterminable. You know, since you mentioned the book GEB, I thought you might have been trying to bring Godel's Incompleteness Theorem into the discussion. But since you didn't specifically state that, I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. The Incompleteness Theorum if very useful for certain lines of reasoning. And it might be relevant to the strong AI problem. But it has no relevance to the compiler problem we've been discussing. In the compilers "axiomatic system", it is not possible to even construct the kind of questions to which GIT refers. The compiler is not burdened with proving that it is correct, or that its own output is correct. At most we are asking it to select the more efficient of several proposed solutions. This in some sense does involve a "proof", but the required proof is no of the validity of the axioms (i.e., the compiler algorithm), nor is it a proof that the "system" is self-consistent. > For all the nit-picky details of the works of these masters, the points they > make are far grander. The real value of their works is not kept solely > within the realm from which their conclusions emerge, but within which > such conclusions find additional value. If you know where to apply them. You can't just willy-nilly claim that GIT applies to any random problem. If you are going to maintain that GIT precludes compilers generating code as efficient as the best human-generated code, you'd best be prepared to present a logical argument as to why GIT applies. It's not a magic wand, and I'm not going to concede your point at the mere mention of it. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Apr 5 13:50:53 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC disk drive questions References: <199904051729.NAA04498@pisces.tcg.sgi.net> Message-ID: <3709060B.575A0D94@bigfoot.com> It doesn't use the 4869 units, they came out later with the PS/2 line of machines ....just everyday floppies wired as if the ribbon cable came out of the case where the 37D connector is. I did the same with my Sanyo MBC-555 years ago, making my own external case with the 2 externals in it. The 4869 would work with a repinning, and a pass-through to another drive. Of course you have to jumper the externals as DS2 and DS3 (on drives that jumper from DS0 to DS3) roblwill@usaor.net wrote: > According to the jumper settings on the 5150, it appears that 4 floppy > drives can be connected to the computer. How is this possible? I'm > guessing 2 internal, and two external, but there's only one connector for an > external drive, so it would only allow 3 drives. > Or is there a special controller that has dual external ports? > > Any suggestions? > > ThAnX, > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 5 14:00:25 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <003301be7f7b$3d8b5900$f17d38cb@ppp.pirie.mtx.net.au> (geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au) References: <003301be7f7b$3d8b5900$f17d38cb@ppp.pirie.mtx.net.au> Message-ID: <19990405190025.32129.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Agreed. I'd be a darn sight happier with a simple text file, or even > html. I can read that even on a Vax with a VT100 and Lynx. Acrobat is > somewhat tedious to manipulate. And I hate having to zoom on text > that's too small to read. So in the context of this discussion about scanned documents, you're saying that you either want them OCR'd or not at all? I've received complaints like that about my site. Fortunately I'm not as thin-skinned as some people, or I might have simply removed the scanned images a long time ago. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 5 14:03:43 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: External drive cabling (Was: IBM PC disk drive questions In-Reply-To: <199904051743.NAA01573@hiway1.exit109.com> Message-ID: > According to the jumper settings on the 5150, it appears that 4 floppy > drives can be connected to the computer. How is this possible? I'm > guessing 2 internal, and two external, but there's only one connector for an > external drive, so it would only allow 3 drives. > Or is there a special controller that has dual external ports? The external connector is electrically quite similar to the internal connector (which supports two drives). You will need to make a cable with a 37 pin male connector, similar to your internal cable. Typically, that would include a twist, but there are ways around that. The pin-out of the cable (Tech Ref p1-182): Unused 1-5 Index 6 Motor Enable C 7 Drive Select D 8 Drive Select C 9 Motor Enable D 10 Direction 11 Step Pulse 12 Write Data 13 Write Enable 14 Track 0 15 Write protect 16 Read Data 17 Side Select 18 Ground 20-37 Because of the difference in how pins are numbered on D connectors v dual row headers or card edges, that may seem completely scrambled. But if you sketch it out, you'll see that you can get away with crimping a 37 pin D Male onto an ordinbary PC drive cable. (BUT, align pin 34 of the cable with the 19/37 end of the D connector!!) If you make up such a cable, then jumper your external drives as "B:", just like you do for internals. In addition, if you want to do it "right", turn off positions 7 and 8 of the 5150 configuration dip switch, so that the PC will know that it has 4 floppies. Hard drive letters, etc. will then begin at E:. Otherwise, with DOS >= 3.20, you could access the external drives with use of 2 inclusions of DRIVER.SYS (/D:2, and /D:3), which will insert the drive letters for your extra floppies AFTER your hard drives, etc. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 5 14:06:36 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: (message from Don Maslin on Mon, 5 Apr 1999 11:25:33 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19990405190636.32203.qmail@brouhaha.com> Buck Savage wrote: > You argument, again, is the value that you place on your time, and not the > quality of your intellect. I maintain that the computer, no matter the > skill > of the algorithm, is always to fall short of human productivity. In this, I Don Maslin wrote: > Gee! You mean that we as a society are spending all this time and all > this money on something that does NOT improve human productivity. How > disappointing! :-) People sometimes tell me about all the time they've saved using computers. I ask them where the saved time is. Do they keep it in a jar in a desk drawer, or what? I think what he was trying to say was limited to computer performance of "intellectual endeavors", although he didn't explicitly state that. However, it's not clear to me that there is any rigorous way to determine what subset of the set of problems that can be solved using a computer are "intellectual" in nature. From elvey at hal.com Mon Apr 5 14:10:28 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199904051910.MAA07943@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > want something that was microcoded to run Pascal? Are there any other > > languages that have gotten microcoded into a processor? > > There have certainly been Forth machines. A processor with an > architecture designed to run Forth efficiently (2 stacks, etc) and > machine instructions that are the primitives of Forth. > > -tony Hi There were several Forth machines done over the years, since the basic concept is so simple. You can even buy Forth cores done in gate arrays ( '51 cores are also quite common ). Harris made one that was used quite often for space applications because it was fast and could run with smaller amounts of code ( a feature of Forth ). Since the hole thing started with LISP, I find it interesting that many have called Forth a backwards LISP ( although, they are truly quite different ). I always like debugging Forth code over debugging LISP code because Forth code follows a more natural order across the page. I found that with LISP, that I'd have to put a lot of indentions and carriage returns to follow the flow. Dwight From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Apr 5 14:06:50 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! References: <199904051622.JAA21632@saul2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <370909C8.7DD6FE8B@bigfoot.com> Os/400 is the operating system made for the AS/400 which is newer than the System/3x machines. COBOL and FORTRAN should be older than that. RPG/400 is fairly easy once you get used to it. Not sure about Visual RPG/400 though, just getting into that at work. Derek Peschel wrote: > Peter Joules wrote: > > Derek Peschel wrote: > > > > (Other old computer languages still in use are FORTRAN and COBOL, but I don't > > > think the reasons for using them are so good.) > > > I used to think that COBOL was old hat unitl I actually had to use it > > for a project during my degree. I was very impressed with its simmple > > syntax and easy data handling, but I haven't come across a better > > database handling language than another one which I had to use at > > University - RPG, it is just a pity that OS/400 is so cryptic ;-) > > I was going to mention RPG in my original post but I changed my mind. I > don't think it's quite as old as COBOL and FORTRAN. > > Some of IBM's development environments are called "VisualAge". There is a > VisualAge Smalltalk and a VisualAge Java (written in VisualAge Smalltalk :)). > Well, there's also a VisualAge RPG. I find that quite ironic considering > the utter opacity of RPG. > > As for OS/400, all you have to do is use the ELMCRPF command... Eliminate > Cryptic Features. What? You can't find it? Well, I don't have any other > suggestions then. :) > > -- Derek From donm at cts.com Mon Apr 5 14:04:52 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: IBM PC disk drive questions In-Reply-To: <01be7fa2$11804100$568ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > According to the jumper settings on the 5150, it appears that 4 floppy > drives can be connected to the computer. How is this possible? I'm > guessing 2 internal, and two external, but there's only one connector for an > external drive, so it would only allow 3 drives. Well, there is only one connector for internal drives also, is there not? - don > Or is there a special controller that has dual external ports? > > Any suggestions? > > ThAnX, > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > > > > > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ From pjt at phxase.allied.com Mon Apr 5 14:54:39 1999 From: pjt at phxase.allied.com (Philip Tait) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: VAX 6000/410 available in a couple of months Message-ID: <370914FE.44064284@phxase.allied.com> Still under DEC maintenance. No licences for transfer. Specifications available on request. -- Philip J. Tait.....AlliedSignal Engines, Phoenix, Az.....pjt@phxase.allied.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Apr 5 16:31:34 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: Thoughts on Taking Inventory In-Reply-To: <19990405160500.DFEC120F0A@iaehv.iae.nl> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990405163134.2fc76fca@intellistar.net> At 06:05 PM 4/5/99 +0200, you wrote: > > >On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:56:42 -0500, mbg@world.std.com (Megan) said: >>>I'd also have a "shadow" page that showed the outlines of the "standard" >>>bus types so that boards could be identified by their outline. >> >>Kind of line the charts 'plane-spotters' used... Good idea. I'll chip in some images of HP boards and some other odds-n-ends that I have around if someone wants to host a circuit board id web page. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Apr 5 16:33:42 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC disk drive questions In-Reply-To: <199904051729.NAA04498@pisces.tcg.sgi.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990405163342.250760c0@intellistar.net> Jason, The external cable had two connectors and a twist in it just like the internal one. Joe At 01:29 PM 4/5/99 -0400, you wrote: >According to the jumper settings on the 5150, it appears that 4 floppy >drives can be connected to the computer.? How is this possible?? I'm >guessing 2 internal, and two external, but there's only one connector for an >external drive, so it would only allow 3 drives. >Or is there a special controller that has dual external ports? > >Any suggestions? > >ThAnX, >-- >???????? -Jason Willgruber >?????? (roblwill@usaor.net) >?????????? ICQ#: 1730318 > > > From hhacker at home.com Mon Apr 5 15:39:36 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture Message-ID: <0b2801be7fa4$82728560$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> >[I'd suggested that we take this discussion off the list. I'm continuing >to reply here in this case only because I don't want people to get the >incorrect idea that Godel's Incompleteness Theorem can be used to magically >explain away any philosophical problem regarding computers.] > >> Is this use of the word "assembly" not yours? I, sir, am quoting you, not >> me! > >OK, that one was mine. It wasn't in the context you originally quoted, or >even from the same message you quoted >(<19990405060635.29296.qmail@brouhaha.com>). I had used it three >hours earlier in the discussion (<19990405030452.28640.qmail@brouhaha.com>). >So perhaps you see why I didn't understand what you were complaining about. >It is customary to include a brief quote of the actual context you are >referring to. > The quote was passed down several layers of reply. I expect one to remember one's own words. Your failure to do so does not provide any obligation on my part. >> That says nothing about the general case >> that humans have superior intellectual capacity vis-a-vis the computer. > >In the general case, I've never claimed that they do. I've only claimed that >in a sufficiently limited problem domain with a time limit (i.e., the solution >value vs. time curve is a flat with a sharp drop to zero), a computer may >reach a better solution than a human would. I also claim that this is true >for other common solution value vs. time curves; if the solution is worth $x >today but only $x/2 tomorrow, the computer may produce a more valuable >solution than would a human. > Time limits accepted but, that is not my concern. I am refering to an ultimate issue, which is that humans have intelligence, computers do not. Any high-speed moron has the opportunity to surpass a considerate intellect. Witness the ability of Deep Blue to challenge the best chess player. Yet, ultimately, a human can decide by means not algorithmic. >> What you have failed to address is that the human intellect is not limited >> by the capacity to algorithmatise a solution. >[and later:] >> Humans have the capacity to make judgements by means outside of those >> mathematical and logical, hence the reference to Penrose. > >Sure. A human may proceed in a manner that is not based upon logical >deduction or any (obvious) deterministic algorithm. > >It is yet to be proven that this human ability (as manifested in complex >problem-solving) is not equivalent to a non-deterministic algorithm, >or even to a sufficiently complex deterministic system. Penrose claims >that quantum uncertaintly is necessary to intelligence. While he provides >insufficient proof of this claim (really just anecdotal evidence), as an >argument against machine intelligence it is a red herring, since it is >not especially difficult to build a system that uses quantum uncertainty >to influence nondeterministic algorithms. > This begs the question, for proof is necessarily mathematical (I, for one, do not agree with Judicial notions of proof, such as a preponderance of the evidence). That you hinge your argument upon the lack of a proof of the means of some human ability simply points to flaws therein. >> in particular, the notions of Godel: that within any axiomatic system, th >> answers to some positable questions are indeterminable. > >You know, since you mentioned the book GEB, I thought you might have been >trying to bring Godel's Incompleteness Theorem into the discussion. But >since you didn't specifically state that, I wanted to give you the benefit >of the doubt. > >The Incompleteness Theorum if very useful for certain lines of reasoning. >And it might be relevant to the strong AI problem. But it has no relevance >to the compiler problem we've been discussing. > It is relevant to the notion that humans must use methods not algorithmic. >In the compilers "axiomatic system", it is not possible to even construct >the kind of questions to which GIT refers. > >The compiler is not burdened with proving that it is correct, or that its >own output is correct. At most we are asking it to select the more efficient >of several proposed solutions. This in some sense does involve a "proof", >but the required proof is no of the validity of the axioms (i.e., the >compiler algorithm), nor is it a proof that the "system" is self-consistent. > >> For all the nit-picky details of the works of these masters, the points they >> make are far grander. The real value of their works is not kept solely >> within the realm from which their conclusions emerge, but within which >> such conclusions find additional value. > >If you know where to apply them. You can't just willy-nilly claim that >GIT applies to any random problem. > This is one of the wonders of human intelligence: to make leaps of logic and application. >If you are going to maintain that GIT precludes compilers generating code >as efficient as the best human-generated code, you'd best be prepared to >present a logical argument as to why GIT applies. It's not a magic wand, >and I'm not going to concede your point at the mere mention of it. I am not applying GIT to the operation of compilers. Instead, I am applying it to the operation of human intelligence. Whether you concede the point makes no difference to me. My purpose is to refute your claims of the superiority of software versus human intelligence, and that is all. William R. Buckley From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 12:27:57 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990404191129.203712f0@earthlink.net> from "Dave Dameron" at Apr 4, 99 07:11:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 872 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/69ea5ace/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 12:29:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 4, 99 08:33:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 581 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/6bf781c8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 12:57:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <19990405024605.28545.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 5, 99 02:46:05 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 948 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/f9b0b295/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 12:34:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <199904050157.AA29611@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Apr 4, 99 09:57:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1016 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/3e7ef5e7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 12:38:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <0a1c01be7f08$58b73460$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> from "Buck Savage" at Apr 4, 99 07:02:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1313 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/188abad9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 12:42:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <0a2601be7f09$1d315c80$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> from "Buck Savage" at Apr 4, 99 07:07:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 677 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/2bdaeab5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 13:11:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <19990405025718.28604.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 5, 99 02:57:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3166 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/eb9bc9a1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 12:45:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <19990405024347.28534.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 5, 99 02:43:47 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 727 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/d061cf99/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 15:07:57 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <19990405030707.28648.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 5, 99 03:07:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 821 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/7be77068/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 15:16:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <004701be7f20$d4cf77c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 4, 99 10:44:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2387 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/389ca16d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 15:18:57 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <199904050940.AA13716@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 5, 99 05:40:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 665 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/2d3a4bb5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 15:24:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <199904051228.WAA07214@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> from "Huw Davies" at Apr 5, 99 10:28:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1421 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/6554f17c/attachment.ksh From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Apr 5 18:54:46 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC disk drive questions Message-ID: <01be7fbf$aeff4a80$598ea6d1@the-general> O.K. I think I have it figured out. I'll have to either get a cable for the external drives (or make one). I was thinking that the 4869 was the drive that would be used with the 5170, but it isn't. Was there a drive box available from IBM for the 5150 (or was that the expansion chassis)? ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 05, 1999 1:33 PM Subject: Re: IBM 5150 PC disk drive questions >Jason, > > The external cable had two connectors and a twist in it just like the >internal one. > > > Joe > >At 01:29 PM 4/5/99 -0400, you wrote: >>According to the jumper settings on the 5150, it appears that 4 floppy >>drives can be connected to the computer. How is this possible? I'm >>guessing 2 internal, and two external, but there's only one connector for an >>external drive, so it would only allow 3 drives. >>Or is there a special controller that has dual external ports? >> >>Any suggestions? >> >>ThAnX, >>-- >> -Jason Willgruber >> (roblwill@usaor.net) >> ICQ#: 1730318 >> >> >> > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 5 16:14:44 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC disk drive questions In-Reply-To: <01be7fbf$aeff4a80$598ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: > O.K. I think I have it figured out. I'll have to either get a cable for > the external drives (or make one). I was thinking that the 4869 was the > drive that would be used with the 5170, but it isn't. Was there a drive box > available from IBM for the 5150 (or was that the expansion chassis)? > ThAnX, Use one of your TRS-80 external drive boxes. But open it up and set the drive select to "B:", since the TRS-80 expected drive select to be handled by the cable. From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 5 16:17:51 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:49 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 5, 99 06:42:45 pm Message-ID: <199904052117.RAA00994@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1778 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/c7a072a8/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Apr 5 16:31:13 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture Message-ID: <990405173113.2200009e@trailing-edge.com> > The problem now is, if I change the file that contains foo(), I have to >apply my patch again. Or in other words, once I patch the output from the >compiler, I can no longer use the compiler. If this is a one time shot and >I will only work with the output from then on, then no problem. But >otherwise ... > > -spc (Although from the discussion it seems that the deal was a one > shot anyway ... ) This sort of situation (compiler doesn't quite do what the writer wants) is actually widely encountered in some classic Unix kernels. There are parts of the kernel that need interlocking, running at a different priority, etc. The "classic" way of doing this is to compile the C code into assembly code, run a program that massages the assembly code to change the details of how some actions are done, and then assemble the modified code. As the old fortune cookie program says, "I'd rather write programs that write programs than write programs" :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Apr 5 17:40:31 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC disk drive questions In-Reply-To: <01be7fbf$aeff4a80$598ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990405174031.302fd0fc@intellistar.net> Jason, No, the expansion chassis was an XT size box with nothing but a MB with of card slots and a power supply. It connected to the main PC by a cable and a card that plugged into a card slot. I've never seen a PC type (non PS-2) type external drive from IBM but they were probably available. Joe At 04:54 PM 4/5/99 -0700, you wrote: >O.K. I think I have it figured out. I'll have to either get a cable for >the external drives (or make one). I was thinking that the 4869 was the >drive that would be used with the 5170, but it isn't. Was there a drive box >available from IBM for the 5150 (or was that the expansion chassis)? > >ThAnX, >-- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Monday, April 05, 1999 1:33 PM >Subject: Re: IBM 5150 PC disk drive questions > > >>Jason, >> >> The external cable had two connectors and a twist in it just like the >>internal one. >> >> >> Joe >> >>At 01:29 PM 4/5/99 -0400, you wrote: >>>According to the jumper settings on the 5150, it appears that 4 floppy >>>drives can be connected to the computer. How is this possible? I'm >>>guessing 2 internal, and two external, but there's only one connector for >an >>>external drive, so it would only allow 3 drives. >>>Or is there a special controller that has dual external ports? >>> >>>Any suggestions? >>> >>>ThAnX, >>>-- >>> -Jason Willgruber >>> (roblwill@usaor.net) >>> ICQ#: 1730318 >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From bluoval at mindspring.com Mon Apr 5 16:46:34 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture References: Message-ID: <37092F39.D4466546@mindspring.com> Well, since we're on the topic of ABS brakes.... 1) ABS has sometimes, in the past, been used in cars and (mostly) trucks only for the stability of the system and not for the reduced braking distances. Many vehicles w/ rear-only ABS use it so the rear of the vehicle doesn't fish-tail in a emergency brake situation. Most manufacturers (if not all) now implement 4 wheel ABS, which significantly reduce braking distances. 2) even if the ABS system fails it still works just like non-ABS brakes. unless the vacuum (power assisted) system fails or the brake line is cut, or (very unlikely) the piston sticks open, the brakes will work just fine. 3) w/ a properly functioning ABS system, there is almost no way a person can 'out-brake' it with the same size and type brake system (same number of pistons, size and compound brake pads, same brake fluid, same size rotors and calipers ect..) The ABS 'pumps' the brakes at a speed that humans could not possibly acheive. this is why they are computerized. sure, I can stop a car faster than any ABS system, and I'm sure you could easily do it too, but not as safe (brick wall, tree, ect.) 4) if you really want to drive a car w/out ABS *and* make it safer than one w/ ABS, there are a few things you should do besides training ( that's a given, and about $2K min.). Spend a couple $K to increase all component sizes, get real sticky pads, get wider sticky tires and pray you don't lock-up. oh, and don't slam on your brakes in a non-ABS car... *SCREECH*, a couple of 360s and crash. its happened to me, xcept for the crash...i think i was lucky. 5) You stated below the reasoning of not wanting an ABS equipt car. Here's my response: There is documentation about the ABS brakes, how do you think mechanics fix them? Go buy the book. About the failure bit: sure, anything can fail! the airbags (u want those in your car, right?), the tires (these too?), headlights (?), seatbelts (!).. i think you see my point. I answered the last reason above. It is very unlikely that ABS brakes will fail. And the part about skill.... have you ever watched NASCAR? Highly trained guys there...crash all the time! F-1 races? there too! NASCAR doesn't allow ABS, and there have been a few rule changes in KART that i haven't kept up with so i can't comment about that. So basically, if you want to be ABSOLUTELY safe don't drive, fly, walk, run with scissors in you hands, tilt your chair back too far, or even leave the house. wait tornados... don't leave your basement. All kidding aside, ABS is probably one of the best safety features in any car. If you are buying one new or used, don't leave the lot without it. Airbags too! They react and act faster than you can. Tony Duell wrote: > > We don't need to bring moralizing into the discussion. Most of us already > > relegate a lot of life's decisions, including some life-critical ones, to > > computers every day. > > > > Or are you the kind of person that refuses to buy cars with antilock brake > > systems? > > Well, I don't drive yet, but when I do, I sure as hell won't have a car > with ABS. > > The reasons are that (a) I am not going to trust my life, and the lives > of others to an undocumented system that could possibly fail, (b) a good > driver can stop a car in a shorter distance than an ABS system can under > some conditions and (c) if it does fail you have to use the brakes > differently than you do with a working ABS system. > > No thanks. I'd rather trust my skill (and thus have to learn to do things > properly) than trust a microprocessor. > > > > > -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 5 16:49:12 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC disk drive questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990405174031.302fd0fc@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > I've never seen a PC type (non PS-2) type external drive from IBM but > they were probably available. Not from IBM. After the PC was released, IBM couldn't see any reason why anyone would want more than two drives. So, they "fixed" that on the AT, by only providing for two drives, at the same time that they began supporting two different kinds of drives. Soon 3. Soon 4. So, the PC, with only one kind of drive available, had hardware support for 4 drives. Soon thereafter, with need for three different kinds of drives, IBM had hardware support for only two drives. (It is not necessary to have both 720K AND 1.4M on the same machine (other than for copying), but 1.2M could NOT completely subsume the need for 360K (if you interchanged with others)). Aftermarket disk controller cards remained available that would support 4 drives. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Apr 5 17:14:38 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: References: <004701be7f20$d4cf77c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990405181438.009dd100@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Tony Duell had spoken clearly: Ohmygosh... I guess it had to happen someday... Tony *has* a fault. I guess it's true, that nobody is perfect.......... ;-) >You're missing the point. If I have my data on an ST506 drive and the >controller fails, the last thing I need is an EIDE drive, however big it >is. I need a controller, or the chips to fix my existing controller. I >want to get my data back. The best way to get data back is never to lose it -- backup! Now, I'm not saying it's bad to keep the old stuff working... but if you are running the risk of losing data using the old equipment, keep multiple backups of what you don't want to go, preferably one copy offsite. This is where I feel modern technology goes hand-in-hand with classics - I'm still working on it, but I want to backup all of my classic proggies & stuff to CD-R, that way if the media dies horribly, at least the data is safe until new media can be had. It's like having a classic car: I know no-one that uses their classic autos for their main vehicle; at least without having a backup vehicle of some sort to get around in... (I have a '75 chevy for a "summer truck" - which, btw, needs brakes right now to prove my point... ;-) Like Tony, my '75 will probably run for another 24 years, it's simple, it's reliable when well taken care of, but I still have my '92 four-wheel-drive for when "Ol' Jake" (the name of the '75) needs servicing. Keep the old girl runnin', Tony -- but back up that data!!! ;-) Just my tuppence, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From hhacker at home.com Mon Apr 5 17:20:23 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS Message-ID: <0b8001be7fb2$805457f0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> >2) even if the ABS system fails it still works just like non-ABS brakes. unless >the vacuum (power assisted) system fails or the brake line is cut, or (very >unlikely) the piston sticks open, the brakes will work just fine. > ABS - American Bull Shi... I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to operate on snow and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do not get that much snow but, in any quick application of my Mustang's breaks, on snow covered roads, they always seem to lock up. Well, the pumping action occurs but, at each application of the pump, I notice wheel lock-up. There is no stopping. William R. Buckley From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 5 17:24:23 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <199904051622.JAA21632@saul2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > I was going to mention RPG in my original post but I changed my mind. I > don't think it's quite as old as COBOL and FORTRAN. > > Some of IBM's development environments are called "VisualAge". There is a > VisualAge Smalltalk and a VisualAge Java (written in VisualAge Smalltalk :)). > Well, there's also a VisualAge RPG. I find that quite ironic considering > the utter opacity of RPG. Believe it or not people still use that abomination. My first exposure to it was in 12th grade. My counselor showed me some programs he wrote and wanted me to learn RPG so I could do some programming for him (he used to pull me out of class to ask me computer questions :) Its funny because it's programmed much like the earlier versions of ForTran, where each statement and associated arguments and data must start in a particular column due to its origins as a punched card language. I would hope the latest version of RPG does away with the archaic column specificity. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From max82 at surfree.com Mon Apr 5 16:33:11 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >You bet!. A number of keyboards don't correctly implement the 'mode >change' commands, which can cause all sorts of problems. > >Such keyboards probably implement whatever commands are needed for the >current flavour of Windows, but may not get any others right. Errr...what do you mean? As far as I recall, the only mode change commands are Num Lock, Scroll Lock, Shift, Ctrl, and Alt. Whether it's the left or right key makes a difference. Now, what do these keyboards get wrong? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Apr 5 17:34:55 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: <0b8001be7fb2$805457f0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> from Buck Savage at "Apr 5, 1999 3:20:23 pm" Message-ID: <199904052235.SAA05677@pechter.dyndns.org> > ABS - American Bull Shi... > > I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to operate on > snow > and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do not get that much snow > but, > in any quick application of my Mustang's breaks, on snow covered roads, > they always seem to lock up. Well, the pumping action occurs but, at each > application of the pump, I notice wheel lock-up. There is no stopping. > > William R. Buckley Noted the same thing with my wife's Acura in New Jersey. The bad news is (unlike the last two years) we usually get snow here. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From max82 at surfree.com Mon Apr 5 16:37:56 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: OT: ABS (was:Re: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer , architecture) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >The reasons are that (a) I am not going to trust my life, and the lives >of others to an undocumented system that could possibly fail, (b) a good >driver can stop a car in a shorter distance than an ABS system can under >some conditions and (c) if it does fail you have to use the brakes >differently than you do with a working ABS system. As far as I know, a failure of the computer can't cause the brakes to fail. They would simply not 'pulse' as they should to prevent locking of the wheels (what is that, by the way? a binding of the suspension?). Of course, there should be a light to tell you about such a failure. Then again, I'm one of those people who think that if it's new, it will be outlasted by something that is already 30 years old. >No thanks. I'd rather trust my skill (and thus have to learn to do things >properly) than trust a microprocessor. Unless of course you made it ;) --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From bill at chipware.com Mon Apr 5 17:46:46 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: <199904052235.SAA05677@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <000401be7fb6$2f68b800$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> The thing I've always wondered is how the system knows whether the brakes are locked because the car is skidding or because the car is stopped. From elvey at hal.com Mon Apr 5 17:49:47 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: <199904052235.SAA05677@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <199904052249.PAA08020@civic.hal.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > > ABS - American Bull Shi... > > > > I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to operate on > > snow > > and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do not get that much snow > > but, > > in any quick application of my Mustang's breaks, on snow covered roads, > > they always seem to lock up. Well, the pumping action occurs but, at each > > application of the pump, I notice wheel lock-up. There is no stopping. > > > > William R. Buckley > > Noted the same thing with my wife's Acura in New Jersey. > The bad news is (unlike the last two years) we usually get snow here. Hi I think people miss the point here. First, nothing short of retro rockets will slow you fast on snow and ice. The best rule here is "SLOW DOWN". Even rainy or dew slick roads reduce traction a lot. ABS' generally do much better on ice and snow than can be done manually. Yes, they generally lock and on lock but it is much better than complete lock as all but a trained expert would do under such conditions. I'm not all that great a fan of ABS but I think for anyone not trained in skid control, it will do better than most people would do. Skid training is something that has to be learned as an automatic reaction. It requires regular refreshing to keep the skill in tune. It can't be learned by reading a book, it must be experienced. ABS will not do magic, it will in most conditions give one a better chance than they would normally have. It won't make up for foolish drivers. IMHO Dwight From elvey at hal.com Mon Apr 5 17:53:43 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: <000401be7fb6$2f68b800$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <199904052253.PAA08025@civic.hal.com> "Bill Sudbrink" wrote: > The thing I've always wondered is how the system > knows whether the brakes are locked because the > car is skidding or because the car is stopped. Hi Bill Most systems do differential breaking on different wheels. This way they can sense a wheel spinning that isn't currently hard breaking. When none of the wheels will spin on there own or the spin is below a certain speed, you have no more need for ABS and it shuts off. Dwight From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Apr 5 18:02:30 1999 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS Message-ID: Boy, we're way off topic here. First off, most ABS will lock up if all four wheels slip. How's it to know that you haven't stopped? No variety of braking is going to help you on ice, only tires (e.g. Bridgestone Blizzak) help there. Secondly, ABS is for dry or wet roads. It actually increases stopping distance in snow and gravel, because on those surfaces it is more advantageous to lock up the wheels and pile up material in front of each tire. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Buck Savage [mailto:hhacker@home.com] Sent: Monday, April 05, 1999 3:20 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS >2) even if the ABS system fails it still works just like non-ABS brakes. unless >the vacuum (power assisted) system fails or the brake line is cut, or (very >unlikely) the piston sticks open, the brakes will work just fine. > ABS - American Bull Shi... I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to operate on snow and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do not get that much snow but, in any quick application of my Mustang's breaks, on snow covered roads, they always seem to lock up. Well, the pumping action occurs but, at each application of the pump, I notice wheel lock-up. There is no stopping. William R. Buckley From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 5 18:13:02 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <0b2801be7fa4$82728560$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> (hhacker@home.com) References: <0b2801be7fa4$82728560$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: <19990405231302.966.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The quote was passed down several layers of reply. I expect one to > remember one's own words. Your failure to do so does not provide any > obligation on my part. No, go back and look at it. You were quoting my quote of *your* words. My only mention of "assembly" had been several message earlier, and you were not quoting that message. You may have been trying to implicitly refer to my earlier message. You can implicitly refer to anything that you want, but that doesn't serve to make it clear to me, or the other people that may read this thread, as to what the heck you're talking about. > It is relevant to the notion that humans must use methods not algorithmic. It *may* be relevant. Then again, it may not. You'll have to do better than simply stating that "it is relevant"; without a better basis than that, it can only be construed as a statement of opinion on your part. > I am not applying GIT to the operation of compilers. Instead, I am applying > it to the operation of human intelligence. Whether you concede the point > makes no difference to me. My purpose is to refute your claims of the > superiority of software versus human intelligence, and that is all. Yes, and you insist on deliberately ignoring my actual claim, and refuting a different claim which I have not ever made. I've got real work to do, so if you can't be bothered to 1) stay on topic (i.e., argue with my actual claim rather than your more general claim), and 2) provide logical arguments rather than vague assertions that GIT is relevant, and 3) not ignore me when I concede your point, but instead keep arguing for it, there is no point to continuing this discussion. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 17:48:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990405100857.03d50d30@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 5, 99 10:23:03 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1192 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/94ef7ba9/attachment.ksh From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Apr 5 18:11:54 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: Tandem Boards Available - Vancouver BC Message-ID: <199904052311.QAA20826@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: I went on a trip to one of the local electronic/scrap stores today, and noted that they have about twenty CPU and other boards from some sort of Tandem machine for sale. They're marked $10 each (that's about $6.50 US) but one could probably haggle with success. Is anyone on the list into Tandem? There hasn't been any discussion of Tandem and their "non-stop" line (read as "full stop" for those with any hands-on experience with the machines) on the list at all, in my recollection. I'm not into Tandem either, but if anyone's interested I can call the store owner for further info this week. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 17:51:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC disk drive questions In-Reply-To: <199904051729.NAA04498@pisces.tcg.sgi.net> from "roblwill@usaor.net" at Apr 5, 99 01:29:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 948 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/9b15b652/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 17:58:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <199904051910.MAA07943@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Apr 5, 99 12:10:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 711 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/02bb0fda/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 5 18:14:55 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990405231455.997.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > Ah, but that's the point. A compiler _can't_ know what you always want in > otherwise unused microcode fields. It can make sensible guesses, but you > need a way to override them, IMHO. Of course. And a properly designed source language would allow you to do precisely that. >> The dividing line between assemblers and compilers has always been somewhat > > I think I'd say an assembler has a one-to-one correspondence between > source and object instructions, a compiler doesn't. OK. In that case, I have never seen an assembler for the MIPS family. They are all compilers. From hhacker at home.com Mon Apr 5 18:17:32 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS Message-ID: <0ba801be7fba$7c634e00$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> >Bill Pechter wrote: >> > ABS - American Bull Shi... >> > >> > I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to operate on >> > snow >> > and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do not get that much snow >> > but, >> > in any quick application of my Mustang's breaks, on snow covered roads, >> > they always seem to lock up. Well, the pumping action occurs but, at each >> > application of the pump, I notice wheel lock-up. There is no stopping. >> > >> > William R. Buckley >> >> Noted the same thing with my wife's Acura in New Jersey. >> The bad news is (unlike the last two years) we usually get snow here. > >Hi > I think people miss the point here. First, nothing short >of retro rockets will slow you fast on snow and ice. The >best rule here is "SLOW DOWN". Even rainy or dew slick >roads reduce traction a lot. ABS' generally do much better >on ice and snow than can be done manually. Yes, they generally >lock and on lock but it is much better than complete lock >as all but a trained expert would do under such conditions. > I'm not all that great a fan of ABS but I think for anyone >not trained in skid control, it will do better than most >people would do. Skid training is something that has to >be learned as an automatic reaction. It requires regular >refreshing to keep the skill in tune. It can't be learned >by reading a book, it must be experienced. > ABS will not do magic, it will in most conditions give >one a better chance than they would normally have. It won't >make up for foolish drivers. >IMHO >Dwight > The detail here is that it occurs even with extremely light pressing of the brake (sorry for the earlier misspelling) peddle. Sure, very slow travel is the best course, which I judiciously demonstrate in my driving under such hazardous conditions. I, too, wonder how the computer knows (obviously, it does not) when lock is due to locking up as opposed to halted motion. William R. Buckley From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 5 18:17:27 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990405231727.1021.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > In general, I'm going to be writing microcode either for a machine that I > understand to gate level, or even more likely, something that I've > designed myself. In which case (especially the latter case), I am going > to be thinking things like 'And that bit enables that AND gate, > transfering this signal to the enable to that register. If I do that one > cycle early, I'll avoid a possible race condition in the hardware at that > point...'. That sort of thing is difficult for me to put into a compiler, > but relatively easy to remember when you're coding by hand. I don't know why you think it's difficult to put that knowledge into a compiler; that is *exactly* the sort of thing that I *did* put in my compilers, and it worked great. I actually had it log messages when constraints like that were applied, and found many that I might have overlooked had I not been using the compiler. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 5 18:21:33 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990405232133.1079.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Most of us already relegate a lot of life's decisions, including some > life-critical ones, to computers every day. > Or are you the kind of person that refuses to buy cars with antilock brake > systems? Tony wrote: > Well, I don't drive yet, but when I do, I sure as hell won't have a car > with ABS. [various good reasons deleted] > No thanks. I'd rather trust my skill (and thus have to learn to do things > properly) than trust a microprocessor. Don't fly on a Boeing 777 or an Airbus A320 either. And don't ever wind up in a hospital ICU, surgery, or radiation oncology. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 5 18:24:13 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <199904052117.RAA00994@armigeron.com> (spc@armigeron.com) References: <199904052117.RAA00994@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <19990405232413.1113.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The problem now is, if I change the file that contains foo(), I have to > apply my patch again. Or in other words, once I patch the output from the > compiler, I can no longer use the compiler. If this is a one time shot and > I will only work with the output from then on, then no problem. But > otherwise ... No, it's not a problem. You comment out (or ifdef) the function, and specifically comment that the C code is a reference implementation, but that the actual implementation is in another file, foo.s (or foo.asm, or whatever). Any time that I hand-optimize some code, I *always* maintain the high level language code as a reference implementation. From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 5 18:24:55 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <19990405231455.997.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 5, 99 11:14:55 pm Message-ID: <199904052324.TAA04188@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1259 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/1f5eda3d/attachment.ksh From at258 at osfn.org Mon Apr 5 18:31:10 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <37092F39.D4466546@mindspring.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure I buy the arguement. The main reason is this: The last 30 years of wonderful safety improvements have unfortunately left us with a population of drivers who are incompetent. Some might say that they are the transport analogue of Windows users. Apparently, ABS works well for large vehicles, although the first incarnation was a nightmare. Finally they seem to have it right. I tend to be suspicious of anything that is federally mandated. The brakes themselves are not bad, however, the story that when the ABS fails the car brakes normally is not always true. A recent discussion thread of this on Rovernet centred around an incident where the failure was complete, yet intermittent. The problem is that drivers will often imagine the brakes can do the impossible and they drive faster, reduce their following distances, brake harder and crash. It is in this context that ABS is less than total success. This is also the behaviour drivers of many four wheel drive vehicles. Safety equipment is no substitute for prudence and discretion. The greatest safety comes from conducting yourself and your vehicle so that things like ABS never have to come fully into play; when they do, then they provide an extra measure of safety. A trained and capable driver can do wonders with a marginal vehicle, but all the wonderous safety equipment in the world can't make up for a fool at the wheel. I spent over 25 years in public transport, so I do have the experience and ill temper to bear me out. I also favour the classic British car, so ABS is rather moot for me. The ideal car for me might be an ICL with large wheels... On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, bluoval wrote: > Well, since we're on the topic of ABS brakes.... > 1) ABS has sometimes, in the past, been used in cars and (mostly) trucks only > for the stability of the system and not for the reduced braking distances. Many > vehicles w/ rear-only ABS use it so the rear of the vehicle doesn't fish-tail in > a emergency brake situation. Most manufacturers (if not all) now implement 4 > wheel ABS, which significantly reduce braking distances. > > 2) even if the ABS system fails it still works just like non-ABS brakes. unless > the vacuum (power assisted) system fails or the brake line is cut, or (very > unlikely) the piston sticks open, the brakes will work just fine. > > 3) w/ a properly functioning ABS system, there is almost no way a person can > 'out-brake' it with the same size and type brake system (same number of pistons, > size and compound brake pads, same brake fluid, same size rotors and calipers > ect..) The ABS 'pumps' the brakes at a speed that humans could not possibly > acheive. this is why they are computerized. sure, I can stop a car faster than > any ABS system, and I'm sure you could easily do it too, but not as safe (brick > wall, tree, ect.) > > 4) if you really want to drive a car w/out ABS *and* make it safer than one w/ > ABS, there are a few things you should do besides training ( that's a given, and > about $2K min.). Spend a couple $K to increase all component sizes, get real > sticky pads, get wider sticky tires and pray you don't lock-up. oh, and don't > slam on your brakes in a non-ABS car... *SCREECH*, a couple of 360s and crash. > its happened to me, xcept for the crash...i think i was lucky. > > 5) You stated below the reasoning of not wanting an ABS equipt car. Here's my > response: There is documentation about the ABS brakes, how do you think > mechanics fix them? Go buy the book. About the failure bit: sure, anything can > fail! the airbags (u want those in your car, right?), the tires (these too?), > headlights (?), seatbelts (!).. i think you see my point. I answered the last > reason above. It is very unlikely that ABS brakes will fail. And the part > about skill.... have you ever watched NASCAR? Highly trained guys there...crash > all the time! F-1 races? there too! NASCAR doesn't allow ABS, and there have > been a few rule changes in KART that i haven't kept up with so i can't comment > about that. > > So basically, if you want to be ABSOLUTELY safe don't drive, fly, walk, run with > scissors in you hands, tilt your chair back too far, or even leave the house. > wait tornados... don't leave your basement. > > All kidding aside, ABS is probably one of the best safety features in any car. > If you are buying one new or used, don't leave the lot without it. Airbags > too! They react and act faster than you can. > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > We don't need to bring moralizing into the discussion. Most of us already > > > relegate a lot of life's decisions, including some life-critical ones, to > > > computers every day. > > > > > > Or are you the kind of person that refuses to buy cars with antilock brake > > > systems? > > > > Well, I don't drive yet, but when I do, I sure as hell won't have a car > > with ABS. > > > > The reasons are that (a) I am not going to trust my life, and the lives > > of others to an undocumented system that could possibly fail, (b) a good > > driver can stop a car in a shorter distance than an ABS system can under > > some conditions and (c) if it does fail you have to use the brakes > > differently than you do with a working ABS system. > > > > No thanks. I'd rather trust my skill (and thus have to learn to do things > > properly) than trust a microprocessor. > > > > > > > > > -tony > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 5 18:29:26 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <19990405232133.1079.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 5, 99 11:21:33 pm Message-ID: <199904052329.TAA04314@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 591 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990405/d5e33060/attachment.ksh From at258 at osfn.org Mon Apr 5 18:36:38 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: <000401be7fb6$2f68b800$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: wheel motion sensors, something like the big GE locomotives. Some systems used notched brake drums. On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > The thing I've always wondered is how the system > knows whether the brakes are locked because the > car is skidding or because the car is stopped. > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Apr 5 18:37:20 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990405100857.03d50d30@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990405163349.00cd94f0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 11:48 PM 4/5/99 +0100, you wrote: >My machine came with the 8/e (only) printset which describes only the >diode-logic panel, and also the 3-volume maintenance manual (for the >e,f,m) that describes both panels (but implies the 8/e has the diode logic >panel and the 8/f and 8/m have the TTL panel). I've got one of each, a non-working 8/E panel using the diode logic and an 8/E panel that uses TTL. The latter is really cool since it still uses lamps but they are 5v versions rather than the 8v lamps of the original. I do however minimize the hours on that panel since I worry about the lamps burning out. (I've got three spares left ...) On an interesting note is the availability of "white" LEDs (actually R, G, and B leds all wired together in the same case). This leaves open the possibility of replacing lamps with white LEDs continuing to keep the 8/e in service as it was intended. (I also scavenge wheat lamps when I see 'em! --Chuck From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Apr 5 21:38:42 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS Message-ID: <01be7fd6$95e08200$e39ba6d1@the-general> This winter, I had a small argument with my dad as to who's car would stop faster - his 1994 Ford explorer, or my 1983 AMC Wagoneer. He claimed that his would stop faster because of the ABS. We both drove to the top of the hill (about 200 feet, 30 degree slope - snow covered). We went down the hill at separate times, each going 15 MPH at the time the brakes were applied. The Jeep, without ABS, and the same type of tires as the Ford (Firestone ATX - studded), stopped about 5 feet shorter than the Ford. Anyone know the average weight of a Ford Explorer? I know the Jeep weighs 5,975 lb., but I have to figure in the weight of the Ford to find out accurately. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Buck Savage To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 05, 1999 3:19 PM Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS > >>2) even if the ABS system fails it still works just like non-ABS brakes. >unless >>the vacuum (power assisted) system fails or the brake line is cut, or (very >>unlikely) the piston sticks open, the brakes will work just fine. >> > > >ABS - American Bull Shi... > >I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to operate on >snow >and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do not get that much snow >but, >in any quick application of my Mustang's breaks, on snow covered roads, >they always seem to lock up. Well, the pumping action occurs but, at each >application of the pump, I notice wheel lock-up. There is no stopping. > >William R. Buckley > > From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 5 18:47:17 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: <199904052235.SAA05677@pechter.dyndns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Apr 05, 1999 06:34:55 PM Message-ID: <199904052347.RAA30383@calico.litterbox.com> > > > ABS - American Bull Shi... > > > > I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to operate on > > snow > > and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do not get that much snow > > but, > > in any quick application of my Mustang's breaks, on snow covered roads, > > they always seem to lock up. Well, the pumping action occurs but, at each > > application of the pump, I notice wheel lock-up. There is no stopping. > > > > William R. Buckley > > Noted the same thing with my wife's Acura in New Jersey. > The bad news is (unlike the last two years) we usually get snow here. > > Bill > > --- Okay, let's back up and consider what ABS brakes are for. They do NOT decrease stopping distance. Even on a dry road in perfect conditions, having the wheels turning instead of locked up will slow you down less fast. What they are for is to give you the ability to steer when you're in a panic stop situation. Nothing more, nothing less. By keeping the wheels turning you retain the ability to dodge while you stop, as opposed to locking up all 4 wheels and praying. It's an unpleasant surprise the first time antilock activates on a slippery road because you expect to slide, all your instincts tell you you SHOULD slide, and you expect the car to slide a specific direction. Instead, Antilock keeps the wheels turning and you go straight. But once you realise you can *steer* while the antilock system is pounding away, you have a lot more options to avoid collisions. It takes practice, especially if this is your first car with antilock on it - I went from a 1974 vw bus to my Neon and the first winter I had the thing in colorado (I'd never gotten the antilocks to do anything in California) I cursed the thing and contemplated pulling the antilock system's fuse out. Now that I've driven it in 3 winters I wouldn't be without it. I agree with the folks who say "also make sure you have good tires, a good brake system (one of the advantages of my neon that they took out later - 4 wheel disk brakes), and that you the driver know what you're doing, but I also think that when you're used to them, ABS brakes make the car much safer. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Apr 5 18:59:24 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... Message-ID: <990405195924.2200009f@trailing-edge.com> >On an interesting note is the availability of "white" LEDs (actually R, G, >and B leds all wired together in the same case). *Most* of the white LED's currently on the market are GaN (blue) LED's that illuminate a white-producing phosphor. The chromaticity indices of the resulting light is markedly different than you get from mixing R, G, and B. (Though this probably doesn't matter to anyone for this particular application...) > This leaves open the >possibility of replacing lamps with white LEDs continuing to keep the 8/e >in service as it was intended. (I also scavenge wheat lamps when I see 'em! It requires some small modifications, most noticably some way of dealing with the pre-heat current (usually done with a shunting resistor across the LED, though I have also seen schemes where a Zener or lifting a leg of the pre-heat resistor is done.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 5 19:04:56 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <199904052329.TAA04314@armigeron.com> (spc@armigeron.com) References: <199904052329.TAA04314@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <19990406000456.1434.qmail@brouhaha.com> > In fact, most modern airplanes (especially jet fighters) are fly-by-wire. But only recently has this been true of commercial aircraft. I've flown on an A320 once, but it was only because United did an equipment change. When I booked the flight, I was told that it was going to be a 737. Since I write embedded system firmware for a living, I think I am at least slightly qualified to assess risks of using such. I belive that by virtue of being a much smaller system, ABS is likely to be more reliable and have fewer latent bugs than fly-by-wire avionics. By preference I'll stick to "classic" commercial aircraft, using classic computers that aren't critical to the aerodynamic performance of the craft. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 18:34:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <199904052117.RAA00994@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Apr 5, 99 05:17:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 711 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/b864f37a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 18:48:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <37092F39.D4466546@mindspring.com> from "bluoval" at Apr 5, 99 05:46:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3370 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/40a057d2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 18:54:00 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: OT: ABS (was:Re: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer , architecture) In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 5, 99 05:37:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1899 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/33bc4b1b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 18:56:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990405181438.009dd100@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Apr 5, 99 06:14:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 777 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/9c43b8b2/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Mon Apr 5 19:17:05 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <19990406000456.1434.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199904060017.RAA08066@civic.hal.com> Eric Smith wrote: > > In fact, most modern airplanes (especially jet fighters) are fly-by-wire. > > But only recently has this been true of commercial aircraft. Hi This reminds me of a story I heard once. It goes something like this: There was a lecturer at a conference of embedded software developers. He asked the crowd, "How many of you would get on a plane that you knew had the flight code written by your software team?" In the crowd of some 300, one fellow raised his hand. The lecturer was puzzled, no one had ever answered this question positively before. He had to know why this man was so confident. He asked the one with his hand up, "Why do you think your software writers are so good?" The fellow answered, "Oh! It isn't that my team is so good. In fact they are the worst I've ever seen. It is just that if my team had written the code, the plane wouldn't taxi let alone take off!" Take Care Dwight From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Apr 5 19:30:11 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: VAX 6000/410 available in a couple of months In-Reply-To: <370914FE.44064284@phxase.allied.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990405173011.00985d00@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 12:54 05-04-1999 -0700, you wrote: >Still under DEC maintenance. No licences for transfer. >Specifications available on request. Hmmm... Philip, would AlliedSignal want some cash money for this, or does it just need a good home when it retires? Either way, I'd like to at least hear the specs. Thanks much! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 5 19:34:23 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: IBM PC disk drive questions Message-ID: <001c01be7fc5$5706c960$0100c0a8@fuj03> I once had a box of "External Drive" cables for a PC. These were terminated in a DC37 at one end and had straight (no twist) cable to the two edge connector sockets, ostensibly for drives 2,3,or 4. This arrangement ostensibly allowed for up to four drives. Dual external ports certainly wouldn't be needed with this arrangement. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jason Willgruber To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 05, 1999 11:43 AM Subject: IBM PC disk drive questions >According to the jumper settings on the 5150, it appears that 4 floppy >drives can be connected to the computer. How is this possible? I'm >guessing 2 internal, and two external, but there's only one connector for an >external drive, so it would only allow 3 drives. >Or is there a special controller that has dual external ports? > >Any suggestions? > >ThAnX, >-- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > > > > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 5 19:34:17 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS Message-ID: <199904060034.AA18559@world.std.com> Hello, all: Does anyone have a copy of the AIM65 Assembler ROM and BASIC ROM that they can shoot me? I read the User's Guide and these seem like interesting programs to have :-). Thanks! [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 19:20:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <19990405231727.1021.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 5, 99 11:17:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1131 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/146d7d83/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 19:28:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: from "Merle K. Peirce" at Apr 5, 99 07:31:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1861 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/c2ca1ee5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 19:30:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:50 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: from "Merle K. Peirce" at Apr 5, 99 07:36:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 912 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/72071f13/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 19:32:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990405163349.00cd94f0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 5, 99 04:37:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 535 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/8f318190/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 19:18:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <19990405231455.997.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 5, 99 11:14:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1120 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/f31c373d/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 5 19:56:26 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <004901be7fc8$6588bf40$0100c0a8@fuj03> I'm going to have to take an opposing position once again. I'd never have given up on terminals, having invested hundreds of kilobucks in them over time. My recollection, biased, I'm sure, by the ten years of trouble-free, experience, thanks to being terminal-free is that they were more trouble than I ever expected. Since I stopped using terminals, I've not once been unable to use a software package because I didn't have the right terminal. Whether it's VMS or WORDSTAR, it is a royal pain if the hardware I've got won't work. Terminals are different. They behave differently, given various commands. Yes, ANSI terminals are more or less compatible, but they won't work with the applications I used to use under CP/M at all. I have never had a desire for DEC hardware, mainly because of my distaste (and disdain) for their application of technology, and of course for their overemphasis on the bottom line, meaning THEIR bottom line. If you read the fine print, their sales documents specifically deny that they claim their products work. argghhh! I'm GLAD they're gone. THEY were the reason I had to have terminals around as long as I did. A keyboard interface is quite straightforward. A video display is not. I agree that there's reason why so many computers used terminals, but now that we don't have to do that, I propose that we not limit ourselves to what little a terminal can do. See . . . there are reasons NOT to use a terminal. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 05, 1999 3:01 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... >> >> While I agree fundamentally in that you really don't have to have graphic >> output capabilities, to wit, I did without it for over 30 years of computer >> use, I don't believe there's any reason to favor the terimnal over the >> direct-mapped monochrome video display. It's nominally a 2000 character > >A few reasons. It's a lot easier to add a serial port than add a video >display/keyboard system (I've done both, many times). And Tim is right : >Serial terminals are probably a lot more universal than whatever flavour >of monitor that you pick. > >> as for what you find difficult to get fixed . . . (a) who cares about fixing >> a serial card? Another costs $3. (b) pre-vga monochrome cards and monitors > >I care. Particularly when I need the darn thing over a weekend, it's >failed on Saturday night, and I have a junk box full of chips, but no >spare boards... I also care about keeping the landfills empty. > >And I specificially mentioned the IBM Async card for a reason. It has a >current loop I/O facility. AFAIK none of the cheap clones - the ones >you'll get for $3 - have this facility. Adding it wouldn't be hard given >a schematic and a well-stocked junk box, but what's the point? By the >time you've traced out the schematic and made the mods you might as well >have fixed the original card. > >Suffice it to say that I have full schematics of this PC and intend to >keep on fixing it properly... > >> abound at the thrift stores. Keyboards do as well. (c) so long as hard disk >> drives of the ST506 variety still abound in the thrift stores, the > >Those drives are getting fairly hard to find in the UK :-( > >> controllers will too. I passed on an 'AT box a week ago, which had a VGA >> card, a 200+ MB eide 3.5" 1/3-height hard disk, and much of the usual stuff > >You're missing the point. If I have my data on an ST506 drive and the >controller fails, the last thing I need is an EIDE drive, however big it >is. I need a controller, or the chips to fix my existing controller. I >want to get my data back. > >> I figure, if I can't replace it with something similar, then I'll replace it >> with something more current. > >Maybe... You might find you're replacing an awful lot of the machine, >though... ISA is on the way out, remember.. > >Personally, I'll stick to machines that I can maintain properly (no board >swapping!). And _I_'ll decide when I want to upgrade. > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 5 20:00:29 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC disk drive questions Message-ID: <005201be7fc8$e1523340$0100c0a8@fuj03> Well, maybe, but the box of them that I had had no twist, hence would not access drive1. Perhaps it wouldn't do drive 2 either. I certainly never tried them because my need for these cable was for the connectors. I was glad there were no twists because it meant I could use the cables less the DC37 connector. They were useful as hard disk cables. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 05, 1999 2:39 PM Subject: Re: IBM 5150 PC disk drive questions Jason, The external cable had two connectors and a twist in it just like the internal one. Joe At 01:29 PM 4/5/99 -0400, you wrote: >According to the jumper settings on the 5150, it appears that 4 floppy >drives can be connected to the computer. How is this possible? I'm >guessing 2 internal, and two external, but there's only one connector for an >external drive, so it would only allow 3 drives. >Or is there a special controller that has dual external ports? > >Any suggestions? > >ThAnX, >-- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 5 20:05:23 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990406010523.1904.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > I find it easier to think of constraints when I am actually working with > them, and not when I am designing a tool that might come across them. When I was working on this stuff, it was an iterative process. I'd discover a potential race condition or the like, and edit a check for it into the compiler. While debugging the compiler, I'd have it log a message every time it found a situation where something had to be done in order to meet the constraint. This sometimes resulting in the discovery that the same problem potentially existed in other parts of the microcode. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Apr 5 20:11:06 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoffrey D. Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... Message-ID: <009201be7fca$9bc123c0$f17d38cb@ppp.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 6 April 1999 04:29 Subject: Re: bringing up an 8f... >So in the context of this discussion about scanned documents, you're saying >that you either want them OCR'd or not at all? No. Any form of document is preferable to none at all, if that is the option. I was simply stating a preference. It's not an ideal world, nor is there an ideal solution. >I've received complaints like that about my site. Fortunately I'm not as >thin-skinned as some people, or I might have simply removed the scanned >images a long time ago. Not from me. Anyone who takes the time to provide online docs in any form has my gratitude. Whether their method of choice or necessity is the one I like or not. Kindest Regards Geoff Roberts > From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 5 20:39:35 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: <0b8001be7fb2$805457f0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Buck Savage wrote: > > 2) even if the ABS system fails it still works just like non-ABS > > brakes. unless >the vacuum (power assisted) system fails or the brake > > line is cut, or (very unlikely) the piston sticks open, the brakes > > will work just fine. > ABS - American Bull Shi... > I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to > operate on snow and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do > not get that much snow but, in any quick application of my Mustang's > breaks, on snow covered roads, they always seem to lock up. Well, the > pumping action occurs but, at each application of the pump, I notice > wheel lock-up. There is no stopping. Yah. Try a proper skid pad with ABS. You'll wind up 270 degrees from where you were being trained to go. If you're lucky. Did my skid pad training at Sears Point in the 70s. I don't want a machine second guessing my judgement when I'm about to die. (If I fuck up, OK, I fuck up. I don't want to guess right and die anyway! Born and raised in Los Angeles, I had my initial driver training during a nasty winter in New Hampshire -- I know how to handle a skid, and ABS systems don't have a clue where the steering wheel is pointing -- a programming task for the current generation, at least those who didn't learn physics from Star Wars and the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From bmahoney at sprint.ca Mon Apr 5 22:31:23 1999 From: bmahoney at sprint.ca (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts on Taking Inventory References: <3.0.1.16.19990405163134.2fc76fca@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3709800B.7A2BB558@sprint.ca> Joe: T3C would gladly host the circuit board id page. This offer goes to anyone else who has some photos/tips/diagrams on how to id components, other than standard PC components. URL is at bottom of this note, email is t3c@xoommail.com Brian Mahoney Joe wrote: > At 06:05 PM 4/5/99 +0200, you wrote: > > > > > >On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:56:42 -0500, mbg@world.std.com (Megan) said: > >>>I'd also have a "shadow" page that showed the outlines of the "standard" > >>>bus types so that boards could be identified by their outline. > >> > >>Kind of line the charts 'plane-spotters' used... > > Good idea. I'll chip in some images of HP boards and some other > odds-n-ends that I have around if someone wants to host a circuit board id > web page. > > Joe -- http://members.xoom.com/T3C/ http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/antique_computers http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/ From bmahoney at sprint.ca Mon Apr 5 22:36:02 1999 From: bmahoney at sprint.ca (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC disk drive questions References: Message-ID: <37098122.820D406A@sprint.ca> This may not pertain to the 5150 but I have seen an external 5 1/4 IBM drive. Small unit, like an Apple ext. drive. Maybe for a some portable, no idea, but it was IBM for sure. B.M. "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > I've never seen a PC type (non PS-2) type external drive from IBM but > > they were probably available. > > Not from IBM. -- http://members.xoom.com/T3C/ http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/antique_computers http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/ From bmahoney at sprint.ca Mon Apr 5 22:40:17 1999 From: bmahoney at sprint.ca (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC disk drive questions References: <37098122.820D406A@sprint.ca> Message-ID: <37098221.6BBA21D8@sprint.ca> Sorry folks, missed the " non/PS2" part. It may have been for a PS/2. Brian Mahoney wrote: > This may not pertain to the 5150 but I have seen an external 5 1/4 IBM drive. > Small unit, like an Apple ext. drive. Maybe for a some portable, no idea, but > it was IBM for sure. > B.M. > > "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > > I've never seen a PC type (non PS-2) type external drive from IBM but > > > they were probably available. > > > > Not from IBM. > > -- > http://members.xoom.com/T3C/ > http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/antique_computers > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/ -- http://members.xoom.com/T3C/ http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/antique_computers http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/ From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Apr 5 20:42:10 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: <199904052347.RAA30383@calico.litterbox.com> References: <199904052235.SAA05677@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <4.1.19990405212322.00a32af0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 05:47 PM 4/5/99 -0600, Jim Strickland said something like: >> >> > ABS - American Bull Shi... >> > >> > I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to operate on >> > snow >> > and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do not get that much snow >> > but, >> > in any quick application of my Mustang's breaks, on snow covered roads, >> > they always seem to lock up. Well, the pumping action occurs but, at each >> > application of the pump, I notice wheel lock-up. There is no stopping. >> > >> > William R. Buckley >> >> Noted the same thing with my wife's Acura in New Jersey. >> The bad news is (unlike the last two years) we usually get snow here. >> >> Bill >> >> --- > >Okay, let's back up and consider what ABS brakes are for. They do NOT >decrease stopping distance. Even on a dry road in perfect conditions, having >the wheels turning instead of locked up will slow you down less fast. >What they are for is to give you the ability to steer when you're in a panic >stop situation. Nothing more, nothing less. By keeping the wheels turning >you retain the ability to dodge while you stop, as opposed to locking up all 4 >wheels and praying. Exactly! When the factories were beginning to roll out prototypes and first-production versions it was discussed in the trade press and somewhat in the public press the ability to *control* the vehicle better during a panic stop. Not complete control, especially on glare ice, nor ability to shorten stopping distance, but more control than absolutely none as when all four wheels lockup on non-ABS vehicles. On my '98 Camry and several of its predicessors ('95 and '91 Camrys), I am able to keep better control during winter driving in this rather hilly town. We get avg 230 inches of snow in a normal winter. This has been a reasonable help for me in driving. Not perfect though and probably won't see it unless one puts spiked caterpillar treads on their car :) > >It's an unpleasant surprise the first time antilock activates on a slippery >road because you expect to slide, all your instincts tell you you SHOULD slide, >and you expect the car to slide a specific direction. Instead, Antilock keeps >the wheels turning and you go straight. But once you realise you can *steer* >while the antilock system is pounding away, you have a lot more options to >avoid collisions. It takes practice, especially if this is your first car with >antilock on it - I went from a 1974 vw bus to my Neon and the first winter I >had the thing in colorado (I'd never gotten the antilocks to do anything >in California) I cursed the thing and contemplated pulling the antilock >system's >fuse out. Now that I've driven it in 3 winters I wouldn't be without it. > >I agree with the folks who say "also make sure you have good tires, a good >brake system (one of the advantages of my neon that they took out later - 4 >wheel disk brakes), and that you the driver know what you're doing, but I also >think that when you're used to them, ABS brakes make the car much safer. Helped me several times in avoiding collisions with deer and turkeys which we have a lot of just outside of town. No - no, the *real* turkeys, not the other fool drivers :) Same goes for my wife and her '93 Jeep Cherokee as she drives to work at 05:30 while the animals are begining to move around at dawn or before the roads have been properly plowed. I've steered on slick pavement around a couple different fool drivers who treat stop signs as a suggestion all while the ABS was buzzing away. Still skidded a bit but I steered away from the trouble. Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Apr 5 20:47:52 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: <01be7fd6$95e08200$e39ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <4.1.19990405214518.00a505d0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 07:38 PM 4/5/99 -0700, Jason Willgruber said something like: >This winter, I had a small argument with my dad as to who's car would stop >faster - his 1994 Ford explorer, or my 1983 AMC Wagoneer. He claimed that >his would stop faster because of the ABS. > >We both drove to the top of the hill (about 200 feet, 30 degree slope - snow >covered). We went down the hill at separate times, each going 15 MPH at the >time the brakes were applied. The Jeep, without ABS, and the same type of >tires as the Ford (Firestone ATX - studded), stopped about 5 feet shorter >than the Ford. > >Anyone know the average weight of a Ford Explorer? I know the Jeep weighs >5,975 lb., but I have to figure in the weight of the Ford to find out >accurately. In your state do the vehicle registrations have the vehicle weight printed upon them? In NY my '98 Camry is shown as 3028 pounds. Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 5 20:56:56 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: TRS Coco Computers References: <3.0.1.16.19990405163134.2fc76fca@intellistar.net> <3709800B.7A2BB558@sprint.ca> Message-ID: <370969E8.641269EC@rain.org> What is the difference between the Coco2 and Coco3 computers? I ran across a couple of the Coco computers in the collection that look like the Coco2, but don't have either a 2 or a 3 on them. Also, are the cartridges that worked with the Coco1 compatible with the later models? Thanks. From max82 at surfree.com Mon Apr 5 19:58:04 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: <199904060034.AA18559@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: >The put ABS on BIG airplanes for a reason and not for the added weight. I don't know if my Microsoft Flight Simulator experience is worth anything, but judging by what I've seen both in it and in various 'Worst Aircraft Tragedies' shows, big airplanes aren't maneuvrable enough to turn while they're skidding. And don't they turn by adjusting the engine thrust anyway? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 5 21:09:45 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <19990405232133.1079.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 5 Apr 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > Tony wrote: > > Well, I don't drive yet, but when I do, I sure as hell won't have a car > > with ABS. > [various good reasons deleted] > > No thanks. I'd rather trust my skill (and thus have to learn to do things > > properly) than trust a microprocessor. > Don't fly on a Boeing 777 or an Airbus A320 either. And don't ever wind > up in a hospital ICU, surgery, or radiation oncology. Nobody who's ever worked in aviation or medical electronics is going to do any of that willingly. Your point was? Last I checked, few volunteer for ICU or oncology treatment (and the latter is forbidden by me), and only foolish flight crew and ignorant passengers volunteer for the aircraft you've named. Make your point. And yes, I know the aviation and medical fields and their equipment middling well, though it wasn't my life's plan when I started. (Be aware that I watch pilots and doctors a lot more carefully than I'd planned as well -- I've worked with them as well as their machines). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Apr 5 21:04:54 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: OT: early rising (was: RE: Timonium Hamfest) In-Reply-To: <3708DB15.6922741C@rain.org> References: <199904051128.VAA07105@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <199904060204.MAA12246@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 08:47 05/04/99 -0700, Marvin wrote: >Yes, it is amazing what practical "education" can do! When I had a quint. >bypass a little over a year ago, some practical education set in :). Yep. My Dad had one about 10 years ago and is about to have another. I'd prefer if he was the only member of the family to have one, thanks all the same. >BTW, are you saying indirectly that they don't hold hamfests in Melbourne, >or that you can't find one? Well, there are these very organized "swap meets" where you can buy new computer bits at a good price and occasionally some older things (like 5.25" SCSI disks) but I've never seen anything interesting for sale. I'm sure there are places where old computer gear is sold but I've never come across one... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From max82 at surfree.com Mon Apr 5 20:05:34 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: >Nobody who's ever worked in aviation or medical electronics is going >to do any of that willingly. Your point was? > >Last I checked, few volunteer for ICU or oncology treatment (and the >latter is forbidden by me), and only foolish flight crew and ignorant >passengers volunteer for the aircraft you've named. Make your point. > >And yes, I know the aviation and medical fields and their equipment >middling well, though it wasn't my life's plan when I started. (Be >aware that I watch pilots and doctors a lot more carefully than I'd >planned as well -- I've worked with them as well as their machines). So, in other words, don't trust doctors, don't trust pilots, don't trust engineers, don't trust any critical machine designed less than 30 years ago. I think we've just thrown all of the benefits of the digital age out the window, Ward :) I have heard of Airbuses crashing because the controls were poorly designed. I've never heard of a 777 crashing. I've also never heard of any medical machines failing, though this would tend to be underpublicized. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 5 21:13:31 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: TRS Coco Computers In-Reply-To: <370969E8.641269EC@rain.org> (message from Marvin on Mon, 05 Apr 1999 18:56:56 -0700) References: <3.0.1.16.19990405163134.2fc76fca@intellistar.net> <3709800B.7A2BB558@sprint.ca> <370969E8.641269EC@rain.org> Message-ID: <19990406021331.2262.qmail@brouhaha.com> > What is the difference between the Coco2 and Coco3 computers? The Color Computer 3 has replaced the 6847 and some of the other internal logic with a gate array. This provides some additional features such as a simple memory management system, so that you can run OS/9 level 2. The CC3 is expandable to 512K of RAM, by adding a special memory expansion card. > Also, are the cartridges that worked > with the Coco1 compatible with the later models? Thanks. Most of them are. A few that used the +12V supply, such as the first generation floppy controller, are not. Those can be used if you plug them into a Multipack, since it provides the +12V. From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Apr 5 21:14:55 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: Fwd: TRANSFORMER Message-ID: <4.1.19990405220204.00a4f500@206.231.8.2> For those who may need such a thing . . . Contact the poster directly, not me. >X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 >Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 20:56:34 -0400 >Reply-To: jimconners@JUNO.COM >Sender: Heathkit Owners and Collectors List >From: Jim Conners >Subject: TRANSFORMER >To: HEATH@LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV > >Hi, >I just found tucked away a brand new transformer for an H-89 computer. >It is marked 54-969 and 172-7575 on the tape on the box and it is marked >54-969 and 60-8204 on the transformer. I was wondering if anyone knew if >this part may have been used in any other Heathkits. I doubt anyone is >repairing an H-89. >Thanks, >Jim > >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- >To subscribe: listserv@listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: subscribe HEATH yourfirstname yourlastname >To unsubscribe: listserv@listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: signoff HEATH >Archives for HEATH: http://www.tempe.gov/archives >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 5 21:18:05 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 05, 1999 09:05:34 PM Message-ID: <199904060218.UAA31252@calico.litterbox.com> > I have heard of Airbuses crashing because the controls were poorly > designed. I've never heard of a 777 crashing. I've also never heard of any > medical machines failing, though this would tend to be underpublicized. > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > Airbusses crash because their ergonomics suck. The pilot gets no feedback from the flight controls (IE the stick doesn't tell their hands anything) they're supposed to watch only this dinky little screen, the controls to turn off the autopilot are comingled with other controls, in general whoever designed the cockpit should be taken out and shot. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Apr 5 21:23:17 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: References: <19990405030707.28648.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199904060223.MAA11484@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 21:07 05/04/99 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >Well, I don't drive yet, but when I do, I sure as hell won't have a car >with ABS. > >The reasons are that (a) I am not going to trust my life, and the lives >of others to an undocumented system that could possibly fail, (b) a good >driver can stop a car in a shorter distance than an ABS system can under >some conditions and (c) if it does fail you have to use the brakes >differently than you do with a working ABS system. > >No thanks. I'd rather trust my skill (and thus have to learn to do things >properly) than trust a microprocessor. Have you done an engineering analysis of the comparative failure rates of ABS and drivers? I know of one person who is alive today because the car I was driving had ABS (wet tram tracks have little or no grip). I've no idea if I'd have hit her in my own car (no ABS) I tend to think I'm a reasonable driver but in a panic situation you can't be sure. One of the really good things about ABS is that the panic response is just what you need - you really have to push hard to invoke ABS in the dry. My new car is going to have ABS, and airbags and probably stability control as well - I just haven't decided what to buy. To put this slightly on topic, we all know that computer systems have become more reliable in the last 20 years but does anyone have any real figures to back this statement up? I exclude disks which have changed so much that comparisons are rather unfair.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 5 21:36:53 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <199904060017.RAA08066@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > There was a lecturer at a conference of embedded software > developers. He asked the crowd, "How many of you would > get on a plane that you knew had the flight code written > by your software team?" > > In the crowd of some 300, one fellow raised his hand. > The lecturer was puzzled, no one had ever answered this > question positively before. He had to know why this man > was so confident. He asked the one with his hand up, > "Why do you think your software writers are so good?" Since I don't do group efforts that aren't open source and I'd been responsible for software related to aircraft safety (mind you' I'd prefer those be open source), of course I'd raise my hand. I'd have (I have) already flown the relevant test flights. I just did minor avionics stuff, not the whole autopilot or inertial navigation systems, but it adds up. Of course I'll risk my life on my team. It's me. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 5 21:29:07 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: (message from Max Eskin on Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:05:34 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <19990406022907.2354.qmail@brouhaha.com> Max Eskin wrote: > I've also never heard of any > medical machines failing, though this would tend to be underpublicized. Don't read Risks Digest, do you? :-) That's OK. Usually I don't have time to either. But there is a very famous case where the Therac-25, a machine to administer radiation therapy, had a combination of software bugs and insufficient hardware safeguards such that under certain circumstances it could provide a much higher dose than intended - in fact, around 15x the dose that is typically fatal. This resulted in the death of at least four patients, and serious injury to others. The best technical coverage of this problem I've seen was published in IEEE Computer, Volume 26, Number 7. It appears to be available online at: http://199.111.112.137/others/seminar/notes/therac_1.html From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 5 21:43:30 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: <199904060034.AA18559@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > I live in New England and nothing works on ice but ABS works better. If > your sharp and have ice racing experince you MIGHT do better manually. > The average idiot on the road driving a 2.5ton SUV doesn't qualify. The "average idiot on the road driving a 2.5ton SUV doesn't" deserve to pass on his chromosomes. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Apr 5 21:32:43 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: References: <199904060034.AA18559@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990405221839.00a4ae60@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 08:58 PM 4/5/99 -0400, Max Eskin said something like: >On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: >>The put ABS on BIG airplanes for a reason and not for the added weight. > >I don't know if my Microsoft Flight Simulator experience is worth >anything, but judging by what I've seen both in it and in various 'Worst >Aircraft Tragedies' shows, big airplanes aren't maneuvrable enough to turn >while they're skidding. And don't they turn by adjusting the engine thrust >anyway? ABS prevents the wheels from locking up like in a car and in so doing maintains a somewhat straight trajectory. A bit of steering is probably needed to correct for cross winds or such. Of course, Allison or other airplane pilots here would add to this. This can be shown in an automobile. I have done it several times simply to "warm up" or get used to the ABS action at the beginning of winter. I go to the company parking lot on an evening or weekend of the first snow, accelerate, nail the brakes and feel and observe what happens. I can do this and release my hands from the steering wheel and the car comes to a stop in a generally straight line. Without ABS on my older cars when I did these "skid pad" warm ups, the car would get squirrelly and I could never let go of the wheel. That improved stopping control actually is the essence of the use of ABS. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 5 21:41:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... Message-ID: <199904060241.AA08260@world.std.com> References: Message-ID: <199904060244.MAA12434@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 21:05 05/04/99 -0400, Max Eskin wrote: >I have heard of Airbuses crashing because the controls were poorly >designed. I've never heard of a 777 crashing. I've also never heard of any >medical machines failing, though this would tend to be underpublicized. The standard example is a certain brand of radio-therapy system (used to treat cancer) which would occasionally give a dose several thousand times higher than specified (this was usually fatal). I have more details at work if anyone really needs to know... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 5 21:55:19 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <004901be7fc8$6588bf40$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I have never had a desire for DEC hardware, mainly because of my distaste > (and disdain) for their application of technology, and of course for their > overemphasis on the bottom line, meaning THEIR bottom line. If you read the > fine print, their sales documents specifically deny that they claim their > products work. argghhh! I'm GLAD they're gone. THEY were the reason I had > to have terminals around as long as I did. Ever read a MICROS~1 license agreement? The DEC sales material wasn't binding. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From at258 at osfn.org Mon Apr 5 21:45:33 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey, I'm still a little hesitant about power brakes, I only recently stopped driving a vehicle without synchromesh, and power steering is for wusses... It looks like we pretty much see eye to eye on this stuff. I almost feel ashamed I'm trying to get my 1970 Rover P6B back on the road - it's full of fripperies, although I DO like the Icelert. I wonder if it'd fit on a PDP-11? On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I'm not sure I buy the arguement. The main reason is this: The last 30 > > years of wonderful safety improvements have unfortunately left us with a > > population of drivers who are incompetent. Some might say that they are > > the transport analogue of Windows users. > > And that is my problem as well. > > IMHO if you are depending on some safety feature (ABS brakes, etc) to get > you out of trouble then you are driving dangerously. If/when I learn to > drive I will want to (and will insist that) I learn to drive properly, > even if the ABS system, power steering, etc all fail at the same time. > > > The problem is that drivers will often imagine the brakes can do the > > impossible and they drive faster, reduce their following distances, brake > > Yep. I'd much rather drive slower and leave big gaps (for all then idiots > decide to cut into them from what I've observed). OK, so my journey takes > a few minutes longer (and often it is only a few minutes), but at least > I get there alive. > > > harder and crash. It is in this context that ABS is less than total > > success. This is also the behaviour drivers of many four wheel drive > > vehicles. Safety equipment is no substitute for prudence and discretion. > > The greatest safety comes from conducting yourself and your vehicle so > > that things like ABS never have to come fully into play; when they do, > > then they provide an extra measure of safety. A trained and capable > > driver can do wonders with a marginal vehicle, but all the wonderous > > safety equipment in the world can't make up for a fool at the wheel. > > Exactly. Safety equipment is there to save you if you make a mistake and > nothing more. It is (or should not be) used to keep you out of trouble. > If you are depending on ABS brakes to prevent a skid in normal > conditions, then most likely you'll end up killing someone. > > -tony > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Mon Apr 5 21:51:11 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One problem is that driving technique with ABS working is entirely different from ABS not working. Switching approaches can be disconcerting, and potentially dangerous. On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Buck Savage wrote: > > > > 2) even if the ABS system fails it still works just like non-ABS > > > brakes. unless >the vacuum (power assisted) system fails or the brake > > > line is cut, or (very unlikely) the piston sticks open, the brakes > > > will work just fine. > > > ABS - American Bull Shi... > > > I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to > > operate on snow and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do > > not get that much snow but, in any quick application of my Mustang's > > breaks, on snow covered roads, they always seem to lock up. Well, the > > pumping action occurs but, at each application of the pump, I notice > > wheel lock-up. There is no stopping. > > Yah. Try a proper skid pad with ABS. You'll wind up 270 degrees from > where you were being trained to go. If you're lucky. Did my skid pad > training at Sears Point in the 70s. I don't want a machine second > guessing my judgement when I'm about to die. (If I fuck up, OK, I fuck > up. I don't want to guess right and die anyway! Born and raised in > Los Angeles, I had my initial driver training during a nasty winter in > New Hampshire -- I know how to handle a skid, and ABS systems don't > have a clue where the steering wheel is pointing -- a programming task > for the current generation, at least those who didn't learn physics > from Star Wars and the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers). > -- > Ward Griffiths > "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then > you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Mon Apr 5 21:54:08 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: TRS Coco Computers In-Reply-To: <370969E8.641269EC@rain.org> Message-ID: There are quite a number of Coco Variants. CoCo2's are cream, I think, and I can't remember about the 3. They also little buttons on them with the amount of memory, and we have one of the Vidtex specials. On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: > > What is the difference between the Coco2 and Coco3 computers? I ran across a > couple of the Coco computers in the collection that look like the Coco2, but > don't have either a 2 or a 3 on them. Also, are the cartridges that worked > with the Coco1 compatible with the later models? Thanks. > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From max82 at surfree.com Mon Apr 5 20:56:17 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: <199904060241.AA08474@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: >It's so they come to a stop. How else would you bring a 747 at 400,000 >pounds from 140+knots to 0 in less than 7000 feet! So, why do you need ABS if you are just landing straight? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 5 22:27:49 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: TRS Coco Computers In-Reply-To: <370969E8.641269EC@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: > What is the difference between the Coco2 and Coco3 computers? I ran across a > couple of the Coco computers in the collection that look like the Coco2, but > don't have either a 2 or a 3 on them. Also, are the cartridges that worked > with the Coco1 compatible with the later models? Thanks. Well, my CoCo3s all say as a minimum Tandy 128k Color Computer 3, and my CoCo2s indicate less memory IIRC (none within reach right now), but I think at least the earlier Color Computer 2s are labeled Radio Shack and I know none of the 3s were that I ever saw (now somebody is going to see one I didn't, of course -- do any of you realise how many brain cells I've killed since I quit Radio Shack in addition to those I killed doing tech support for them from '80 to '86?) -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From transit at primenet.com Mon Apr 5 22:23:48 1999 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: TRS Coco Computers In-Reply-To: <19990406021331.2262.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > > Also, are the cartridges that worked > > with the Coco1 compatible with the later models? Thanks. > > Most of them are. A few that used the +12V supply, such as the first > generation floppy controller, are not. Those can be used if you plug them > into a Multipack, since it provides the +12V. > I did some sort of hack on the floppy controller (it involved soldering a wire from the power supply to one of the contacts on the controller card). I can dig it out if anyone needs it . . . From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 5 22:40:33 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > I have heard of Airbuses crashing because the controls were poorly > designed. I've never heard of a 777 crashing. I've also never heard of any > medical machines failing, though this would tend to be underpublicized. In honesty, I've never examined either the 777 or Airbus directly. I prefer not to fly -- after I left the USAF (and started working with medical electronics), I took my first (only) programming course so I could design lighter-than-air transportation systems. Call them Zeppelins if you want, though my designs have little in common with the machines around in the 1930s -- a lot of progress has been made since the mishap at Lakehurst. Even while I was in the USAF I hated airplanes -- gravity never allows better than a draw and I prefer to win. And yes, failure of medical equipment tends to be unpublicised. "Underpublicized" is a nice little weasel-word. Like the relative proportions between shootings of bystanders by police and citizens (the cops make lots more mistakes) is "underpublicized". -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From donm at cts.com Mon Apr 5 22:38:06 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > We don't need to bring moralizing into the discussion. Most of us already > > relegate a lot of life's decisions, including some life-critical ones, to > > computers every day. > > > > Or are you the kind of person that refuses to buy cars with antilock brake > > systems? > > Well, I don't drive yet, but when I do, I sure as hell won't have a car > with ABS. > > The reasons are that (a) I am not going to trust my life, and the lives > of others to an undocumented system that could possibly fail, (b) a good > driver can stop a car in a shorter distance than an ABS system can under > some conditions and (c) if it does fail you have to use the brakes > differently than you do with a working ABS system. Are you sure of that, Tony. I seem to recall Stirling Moss and other latter day GP drivers agreeing that an ABS system was superior to human performance. > No thanks. I'd rather trust my skill (and thus have to learn to do things > properly) than trust a microprocessor. Surely it fails safe. - don > > > > -tony > > From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 5 22:44:27 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: OT: early rising (was: RE: Timonium Hamfest) References: <199904051128.VAA07105@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> <199904060204.MAA12246@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <3709831B.9CD823D8@rain.org> Huw Davies wrote: > > At 08:47 05/04/99 -0700, Marvin wrote: > >BTW, are you saying indirectly that they don't hold hamfests in Melbourne, > >or that you can't find one? > > Well, there are these very organized "swap meets" where you can buy new > computer bits at a good price and occasionally some older things (like > 5.25" SCSI disks) but I've never seen anything interesting for sale. I'm > sure there are places where old computer gear is sold but I've never come > across one... There is a very active group of hams down your way who are into ARDF (I can send you addresses if you are interested) and I have found hams to be a very good source of older computers!!! And as an aside, current research seems to show that expending over 2200 calories a week can slow up, and even reverse the clogging of arteries that lead to some major inconveniences (such as a bypass.) ARDF can be a really fun way to expend some calories for those who have a competitive and technical bent. From donm at cts.com Mon Apr 5 22:46:26 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 PC disk drive questions In-Reply-To: <01be7fbf$aeff4a80$598ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > O.K. I think I have it figured out. I'll have to either get a cable for > the external drives (or make one). I was thinking that the 4869 was the > drive that would be used with the 5170, but it isn't. Was there a drive box > available from IBM for the 5150 (or was that the expansion chassis)? E-mail me if you really want one. Non-IBM, though. - don > ThAnX, > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Mon Apr 5 22:53:01 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS Message-ID: <006c01be7fe0$f85870a0$f17d38cb@netcafe> -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 6 April 1999 11:29 Subject: Re: ABS - or is it Pure BS >On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: >>The put ABS on BIG airplanes for a reason and not for the added weight. > >I don't know if my Microsoft Flight Simulator experience is worth >anything, With all due respect, IMHO, simulators that are not mounted on big hydraulic jacks and convince you that you are in a real aeroplane are not much chop for anything except perhaps teaching instrument flying, and fairly limited in that area. >but judging by what I've seen both in it and in various 'Worst >Aircraft Tragedies' shows, big airplanes aren't maneuvrable enough to turn >while they're skidding. The whole point of abs on a heavy aircraft is so they DON'T skid. My experience with virually all vehicles is that they are difficult to maneuvre whilst skidding! Can't comment on the snow and ice issue, (never see that around here) but abs can be hazardous on gravel roads (we have lots of them) IF the driver is not aware of, and trained in the way it affects vehicle handling. Many of our urban brethren manage to come unstuck on gravel, country boys don't seem to have much trouble, whether they have abs or not, so I suspect the biggest factor is not the vehicle or it's braking system, but the skill level of the driver and the degree of familiarity with the vehicle, it's handling and the road surface.. >And don't they turn by adjusting the engine thrust Not since the DC3 days. No, they have steerable nosewheels, attached to the rudder pedals, or to an auxiliary steering wheel. Steering with differential throttle may be used to ASSIST in turning an aircraft, but not on it's own, unless the nosewheel steering has failed. Geoff Roberts VK5KDR 200+ hours in various light aircraft. 10 years in Air Traffic Services 5 of 'em at Sydney Kingsford-Smith. 5 in the bush 300 miles from anywhere. From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Mon Apr 5 22:58:46 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS Message-ID: <007101be7fe1$c62c1720$f17d38cb@netcafe> -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 6 April 1999 12:27 Subject: Re: ABS - or is it Pure BS >On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > >>It's so they come to a stop. How else would you bring a 747 at 400,000 >>pounds from 140+knots to 0 in less than 7000 feet! > >So, why do you need ABS if you are just landing straight? So that it doesn't :- 1) Beat the hell out of the tyres any more than necessary. ABS tends to prolong tyre life by reducing damage that occurs during braking, like flat spots. Aircraft tyres have a hard life at best (0 to 140kts in 1 sec or so.) 2)On a slippery (read wet/icy) surface, they extract maximum braking performance without reducing control. Consider the footprint of a 400,000ib aircraft in comparison to a large truck. The truck has considerably more rubber per lb of weight on the surface. The aircraft needs all the help it can get. Basically, if all runways were clean, dry and provided max braking at all times, it's probably possible to live without it, but they aren't like that, so it's very desirable. Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Mon Apr 5 23:01:23 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <008401be7fe2$23b42ea0$f17d38cb@netcafe> -----Original Message----- From: Ward D. Griffiths III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 6 April 1999 12:16 Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... >On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> I have never had a desire for DEC hardware, mainly because of my distaste >> (and disdain) for their application of technology, and of course for their >> overemphasis on the bottom line, meaning THEIR bottom line. If you read the >> fine print, their sales documents specifically deny that they claim their >> products work. argghhh! I'm GLAD they're gone. THEY were the reason I had >> to have terminals around as long as I did. > >Ever read a MICROS~1 license agreement? The DEC sales material wasn't >binding. I've yet to see ANY software license that guarantees the software will actually DO anything. Some do guarantee to take up space on a disk. That's about it. Cheers Geoff Roberts From donm at cts.com Mon Apr 5 23:14:35 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: <199904052249.PAA08020@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: ________O/_______ O\ > I think people miss the point here. First, nothing short > of retro rockets will slow you fast on snow and ice. The > best rule here is "SLOW DOWN". Even rainy or dew slick > roads reduce traction a lot. ABS' generally do much better > on ice and snow than can be done manually. Yes, they generally > lock and on lock but it is much better than complete lock > as all but a trained expert would do under such conditions. > I'm not all that great a fan of ABS but I think for anyone > not trained in skid control, it will do better than most > people would do. Skid training is something that has to > be learned as an automatic reaction. It requires regular > refreshing to keep the skill in tune. It can't be learned > by reading a book, it must be experienced. > ABS will not do magic, it will in most conditions give > one a better chance than they would normally have. It won't > make up for foolish drivers. > IMHO > Dwight > I generally agree with your comments about 'skid control' which must be learned so well that it becomes a conditioned reflex. And that is somewhat difficult in that the proper reaction to a rear wheel skid is exactly the opposite of a front wheel skid. However, I think that you mix apples and oranges when you negate the desirability of ABS if you are 'skid conditioned'. ABS will certainly make you stop in a lesser distance and will also minimize the tendency to skid. Nothing will preclude skidding under some conditions except parking the vehicle, but ABS is a distinct benefit under most circumstances for most drivers. Here in Southern California where we will probably have a fender bender when anyone empties their Thermos on the pavement, or - heaven help us - if it showers the freeway becomes an auto wrecking yard, we need not only ABS but a liberal dose of that uncommon faculty mistakenly called common sense! Drive slower and keep your distance. - don From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 5 23:30:46 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <008401be7fe2$23b42ea0$f17d38cb@netcafe> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > I've yet to see ANY software license that guarantees the software will > actually DO anything. Some do guarantee to take up space on a disk. > That's about it. Actually, I've never seen a software license that guarantees to take up disk space, though the bit on the outside generally implies you'd best have a bunch to spare. Hell, I've only seen one _printed book_ with a space guarantee, when Robert A. Heinlein in his _Expanded Universe_ promised that the book would contain enough pages to hold the covers apart or your money back. (Mind you, lots of computer documentation would fail _that_ promise if they attempted it, be it hardware or software manuals). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From donm at cts.com Mon Apr 5 23:42:33 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:51 2005 Subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: <199904052347.RAA30383@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > > > > > ABS - American Bull Shi... > > > > > > I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to operate on > > > snow > > > and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do not get that much snow > > > but, > > > in any quick application of my Mustang's breaks, on snow covered roads, > > > they always seem to lock up. Well, the pumping action occurs but, at each > > > application of the pump, I notice wheel lock-up. There is no stopping. > > > > > > William R. Buckley > > > > Noted the same thing with my wife's Acura in New Jersey. > > The bad news is (unlike the last two years) we usually get snow here. > > > > Bill > > > > --- > > Okay, let's back up and consider what ABS brakes are for. They do NOT > decrease stopping distance. Even on a dry road in perfect conditions, having > the wheels turning instead of locked up will slow you down less fast. > What they are for is to give you the ability to steer when you're in a panic > stop situation. Nothing more, nothing less. By keeping the wheels turning > you retain the ability to dodge while you stop, as opposed to locking up all 4 > wheels and praying. Sorry, but locked up and sliding is not the quickest stop. Actually, hitting an immovable object is, but I cannot recommend that either. - don > It's an unpleasant surprise the first time antilock activates on a slippery > road because you expect to slide, all your instincts tell you you SHOULD slide, > and you expect the car to slide a specific direction. Instead, Antilock keeps > the wheels turning and you go straight. But once you realise you can *steer* > while the antilock system is pounding away, you have a lot more options to > avoid collisions. It takes practice, especially if this is your first car with > antilock on it - I went from a 1974 vw bus to my Neon and the first winter I > had the thing in colorado (I'd never gotten the antilocks to do anything > in California) I cursed the thing and contemplated pulling the antilock system's > fuse out. Now that I've driven it in 3 winters I wouldn't be without it. > > I agree with the folks who say "also make sure you have good tires, a good > brake system (one of the advantages of my neon that they took out later - 4 > wheel disk brakes), and that you the driver know what you're doing, but I also > think that when you're used to them, ABS brakes make the car much safer. > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 5 22:51:57 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS References: <006c01be7fe0$f85870a0$f17d38cb@netcafe> Message-ID: <370984DD.EFA6B3E0@cnct.com> Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > With all due respect, IMHO, simulators that are not mounted on big hydraulic > jacks and convince you that you are in a real aeroplane are not much chop > for anything except perhaps teaching instrument flying, and fairly limited > in that area. Even those have their limitations. The C5A simulator I used to service wouldn't tilt past 25 or so degrees from horizontal, so there was no way to practice a barrel roll. (Yeah, the computer flight sims will let you do that, but they don't teach you how to think with all of your heart's blood pressing on your brain). I'll admit I'm not the engineer to build a decent _large_ aircraft simulator to give that experience -- part of the deal in the C5A simulator was the fact that it was a rather large object with a bunch of people in the cabin, hard to make that realistic sticking the pilot (or navigator or flight engineer) in a closet. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 5 23:52:32 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Apr 05, 1999 09:42:33 PM Message-ID: <199904060452.WAA32124@calico.litterbox.com> > Sorry, but locked up and sliding is not the quickest stop. Actually, > hitting an immovable object is, but I cannot recommend that either. > > - don Eeek. Well yeah, nothing beats the sudden decelleration of hitting a solid object. As I think about it, I'm not entirely sure skidding isn't less efficient than keeping the tire right at the skid point. My reason is thinking about what happens to brakes as they heat up - they loose the ability to grip. If the same thing happens to the tire as you skid, you'd expect it to grip LESS well than a tire at the threshold of skidding because it's being pumped hundreds of times a second by a computer. I'm an English major, not a physicist (Damn it Jim, I'm a writer, not an engineer!) so I'm basically guessing at this point. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Apr 5 18:53:09 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: References: <0b8001be7fb2$805457f0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: <199904060452.AAA26046@smtp.interlog.com> On 5 Apr 99 at 21:39, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Buck Savage wrote: > > > > 2) even if the ABS system fails it still works just like non-ABS > > > brakes. unless >the vacuum (power assisted) system fails or the brake > > > line is cut, or (very unlikely) the piston sticks open, the brakes > > > will work just fine. > > > ABS - American Bull Shi... > > > I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to > > operate on snow and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do > > not get that much snow but, in any quick application of my Mustang's > > breaks, on snow covered roads, they always seem to lock up. Well, the > > pumping action occurs but, at each application of the pump, I notice > > wheel lock-up. There is no stopping. > > Yah. Try a proper skid pad with ABS. You'll wind up 270 degrees from > where you were being trained to go. If you're lucky. Did my skid pad > training at Sears Point in the 70s. I don't want a machine second > guessing my judgement when I'm about to die. (If I fuck up, OK, I fuck > up. I don't want to guess right and die anyway! Born and raised in > Los Angeles, I had my initial driver training during a nasty winter in > New Hampshire -- I know how to handle a skid, and ABS systems don't > have a clue where the steering wheel is pointing -- a programming task > for the current generation, at least those who didn't learn physics > from Star Wars and the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers). > -- > Ward Griffiths > "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then > you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor > Having had decades of extensive driving during the long cold winters in western Canada, Qebec and Ontario , I would consider myself a quite skilled slippery road driver. The worst thing you can do when you go into a skid is lock your brakes. The best is to turn into the skid and use your accellerator and steering to bring it back under control. I would rather have any brake action under my control and hope I can steer out of it without using them.There are courses up here which teach this technique. ABS seems just damnright dangerous to me, except perhaps for the complete novice who would lock his brakes out of fear and inexperience. I have also had experiences of power-steering failure one of which resulted in a serious accident for myself. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Apr 5 18:53:10 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: Single-Density PC-clone floppy controllers In-Reply-To: <990405125737.212001f0@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199904060452.AAA26052@smtp.interlog.com> On 5 Apr 99 at 12:57, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > For those who are putting together single-density-capable systems > for use on a PC-clone (with Teledisk, 22Disk, and the like), they > may find these articles from comp.os.cpm several months ago useful > (or they may have additional data and/or contradicting data, which > will be useful to the rest of us.) > > Enjoy! -Tim. > > Single Density on a PC (was Re: 22Disk and CompatiCard) > Author: Amardeep S. Chana > Date: 1998/12/30 > Forum: comp.os.cpm > Big SNIP Mmm, good one ! Went right to my archives. Don't know how I missed these as I usually monitor that newsgroup. Thanks ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From gram at cnct.com Tue Apr 6 00:13:37 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > I've yet to see ANY software license that guarantees the software will > actually DO anything. Some do guarantee to take up space on a disk. > That's about it. Actually, I've never seen a software license that guarantees to take up disk space, though the note on the label generally implies you'd best have a bunch to spare. Hell, I've only seen one _printed book_ with a space guarantee, when Robert A. Heinlein in his _Expanded Universe_ promised that the book would contain enough pages to hold the covers apart or your money back. (Mind you, lots of computer documentation would fail _that_ promise if they attempted it, be it hardware or software manuals). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From donm at cts.com Tue Apr 6 00:04:42 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: <199904060241.AA08474@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > > It's so they come to a stop. How else would you bring a 747 at 400,000 > pounds from 140+knots to 0 in less than 7000 feet! I think that we would agree that thrust reversers are a big help! - don > Turning is a whole different process. > > I feel comfortable discussing this as a pilot on this point. > > Allison > From donm at cts.com Tue Apr 6 00:07:24 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > Hey, I'm still a little hesitant about power brakes, I only recently > stopped driving a vehicle without synchromesh, and power steering is for > wusses... What! No crashbox? Shame! - don > It looks like we pretty much see eye to eye on this stuff. I almost feel > ashamed I'm trying to get my 1970 Rover P6B back on the road - it's full > of fripperies, although I DO like the Icelert. I wonder if it'd fit on a > PDP-11? > > On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: ________O/_______ O\ > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > > From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Tue Apr 6 01:06:27 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: OT Simulators was Re: ABS - or is it Pure BS Message-ID: <00c801be7ff3$9c41efe0$f17d38cb@netcafe> -----Original Message----- From: Ward Donald Griffiths III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 6 April 1999 14:16 Subject: Re: ABS - or is it Pure BS >Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > >> With all due respect, IMHO, simulators that are not mounted on big hydraulic >> jacks and convince you that you are in a real aeroplane are not much chop >> for anything except perhaps teaching instrument flying, and fairly limited >> in that area. > >Even those have their limitations. The C5A simulator I used to >service wouldn't tilt past 25 or so degrees from horizontal, so >there was no way to practice a barrel roll. (Yeah, the computer >flight sims will let you do that, but they don't teach you how to >think with all of your heart's blood pressing on your brain). Exactly. They also don't teach you to trust your instruments when your middle ear is trying to convince you that you are flying straight and level when in fact you are in a descending left spiral. You just don't get the feedback in your loungeroom. The best sims in the world can't duplicate that experience, but they are at least enough to give you an idea. I know that people have been airsick in the P3 sim at RAAF Edinburgh when they have turbulence dialled in. It's fairly convincing for most things. They can't quite duplicate the separation of the wing leading edge when the aircraft is overstressed, but they can at least reproduce the conditions. (Real Orions are known to do that, we lost one at Cocos Island a year or two back that way, not a fault of the aircraft, it was being, ahem, mishandled at the time.) >I'll admit I'm not the engineer to build a decent _large_ >aircraft simulator to give that experience -- part of the deal in >the C5A simulator was the fact that it was a rather large object >with a bunch of people in the cabin, hard to make that realistic >sticking the pilot (or navigator or flight engineer) in a closet. Suspension of disbelief is fairly vital if the simulator experience is to have much usefullness when related to the real world. It's got to feel real enough to make you forget it's not an aeroplane, and it's got to behave like the real aeroplane as much as possible without antigravity assistance. Cheers Geoff Roberts From joe at barrera.org Tue Apr 6 01:24:40 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: this is not rec.autos References: Message-ID: <001501be7ff6$2ae9cb80$4001010a@joebargx1> ... but it sure seems like it, lately. Can't we put the brakes on the ABS discussion (as it were :-)? From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Apr 6 01:46:01 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: this is not rec.autos In-Reply-To: <001501be7ff6$2ae9cb80$4001010a@joebargx1> References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990405234535.00b1c910@mcmanis.com> it certainly has me squealing... At 11:24 PM 4/5/99 -0700, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: >... but it sure seems like it, lately. Can't we put the brakes on the ABS >discussion (as it were :-)? From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 6 01:46:01 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS References: <199904060452.WAA32124@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <3709ADA9.ED7CE4F1@rain.org> Jim Strickland wrote: > > > Sorry, but locked up and sliding is not the quickest stop. Actually, > > hitting an immovable object is, but I cannot recommend that either. > > > > - don > Eeek. Well yeah, nothing beats the sudden decelleration of hitting a solid > object. As I think about it, I'm not entirely sure skidding isn't less > efficient than keeping the tire right at the skid point. My reason is thinking I would expect skidding to be less efficient since IIRC the coefficient of friction decreases once an object starts to slide. And of course that coefficient of friction would vary depending on the road surface. From spc at armigeron.com Tue Apr 6 02:05:54 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 5, 99 08:58:04 pm Message-ID: <199904060705.DAA15442@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 873 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/fabec86d/attachment.ksh From pjoules at joules.enterprise-plc.com Tue Apr 6 04:44:22 1999 From: pjoules at joules.enterprise-plc.com (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS References: Message-ID: <3709D776.2D7FF0E2@joules.enterprise-plc.com> Don Maslin wrote: > > Sorry, but locked up and sliding is not the quickest stop. Actually, > hitting an immovable object is, but I cannot recommend that either. > Agreed, the shortest stopping distance ma be achievved by kkeping the tyres just at the point where they are about to slide. This is why cadence braking works better than just standing on the pedal. I have seen people commplain on TV consumer programmes that ABS cused them to crash because they couldn't stop in the available distance, they seem to miss the point that if they couldn't stop with ABS then they almost certainly couldn't stop manually either beacuse the road surface was too slippery. Regards Pete From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Apr 6 06:48:11 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: this is not rec.autos Message-ID: <2c0e2867.243b4e7b@aol.com> In a message dated 99-04-06 02:39:31 EDT, you write: << it certainly has me squealing... At 11:24 PM 4/5/99 -0700, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: >... but it sure seems like it, lately. Can't we put the brakes on the ABS >discussion (as it were :-)? >> From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Apr 6 05:31:48 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: OT ABS ranting In-Reply-To: References: <19990405030707.28648.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 5, 99 03:07:07 am Message-ID: >> We don't need to bring moralizing into the discussion. Most of us already >> relegate a lot of life's decisions, including some life-critical ones, to >> computers every day. >> >> Or are you the kind of person that refuses to buy cars with antilock brake >> systems? > >Well, I don't drive yet, but when I do, I sure as hell won't have a car >with ABS. > >The reasons are that (a) I am not going to trust my life, and the lives >of others to an undocumented system that could possibly fail, (b) a good >driver can stop a car in a shorter distance than an ABS system can under >some conditions and (c) if it does fail you have to use the brakes >differently than you do with a working ABS system. > >No thanks. I'd rather trust my skill (and thus have to learn to do things >properly) than trust a microprocessor. This smells like its going to be a long one, so I might as well get in a few early punches. RE ABS I love it, most racers I know love it, and IMNSHO you have it all wrong. All it took for me was a couple passes on a wet track doing emergency lane changes, with and without ABS in a small Audi. With ABS you stomp the brakes and change lanes. Without ABS its a toss of the dice on your reaction, skill, and the grip of the tires, and most people get to set up a lot of orange cones after a spin. Common failure modes are; dash light comes on and ABS does nothing, ABS modulates the brake lines prior to wheel lockup. Not a problem, just no particular gain. If you pushed too hard on the brakes, and ABS has failed, you do what you should do without ABS, modulate the pedal yourself. Further discussion of ABS I suggest belongs offline. RE trusting a microprocessor. I worked for a number of years as a consultant to Baxter Heathcare, and designed and wrote the principal code used in the Autopheresis C blood plasma collection system, of which many thousands are in use all over the world. Apart from a few TUV considerations this instrument is entirely fly by wire, ie no button or other control directly effects the operation, everything goes through the cpu and my software. I don't put my trust in a microprocessor lightly, but some systems have earned a thinking persons trust, and I don't worry too much about them. From bluoval at mindspring.com Tue Apr 6 07:22:35 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS References: <0b8001be7fb2$805457f0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: <3709FC8B.33EFE7A4@mindspring.com> Show me one brake system that doesn't do this. Buck Savage wrote: > >2) even if the ABS system fails it still works just like non-ABS brakes. > unless > >the vacuum (power assisted) system fails or the brake line is cut, or (very > >unlikely) the piston sticks open, the brakes will work just fine. > > > > ABS - American Bull Shi... > > I have noted one difficulty with ABS, and that is its failure to operate on > snow > and ice. Since I live in Southern California, I do not get that much snow > but, > in any quick application of my Mustang's breaks, on snow covered roads, > they always seem to lock up. Well, the pumping action occurs but, at each > application of the pump, I notice wheel lock-up. There is no stopping. > > William R. Buckley From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 6 07:35:07 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I have never had a desire for DEC hardware, mainly because of my distaste > > (and disdain) for their application of technology, and of course for their > > overemphasis on the bottom line, meaning THEIR bottom line. If you read the > > fine print, their sales documents specifically deny that they claim their > > products work. argghhh! I'm GLAD they're gone. THEY were the reason I had > > to have terminals around as long as I did. As someone that spent 10 years with DEC doing everthing possible to improve product and perception of service, I resent that! I remember far to many times bending over backward for customers to solve their problems and often flying all over the country on a moments notice. We werent perfect but, damm we tried. > Ever read a MICROS~1 license agreement? The DEC sales material wasn't > binding. Yes, it's a pip. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 6 07:44:19 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >It's so they come to a stop. How else would you bring a 747 at 400,000 > >pounds from 140+knots to 0 in less than 7000 feet! > > So, why do you need ABS if you are just landing straight? Two reasons. One so you do land straight. The other is more imporant, Stopping a large plane requires a lot of breaking all done hydraulically with power assist, teh pilot has little feel for those tires down on the ground. To stop in the shortest distance the wheels have to be brought to a near stop without actually stopping them. If they stop turning the rubber peels off and forms little rollers under the tires thereby reducing the effictive friction to near zero. That must not happen. Even on my little 1600 pound cessna if the tires lock they skid and it will actually take more distance to stop, that is also neverminding that skidding removes rubber at a ferocious rate and can cause tire loss, gear collapse, or worse fires(on bigger birds). The ABS on card were designed for the same purpose, to nearly stop the wheel to prevent skidding. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 6 07:54:28 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: <199904060452.WAA32124@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: > efficient than keeping the tire right at the skid point. My reason is thinking > about what happens to brakes as they heat up - they loose the ability to Not an issue generally as there are materials that work better when hot. Though some auto brakes when really worked hard (like going down Mt washington auto road) will fade. The real problem is when the tire skids there is rubber ripped off and rolling under the tire like ball bearings or gravel and that provides a very low coefficient of friction. Allison From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Apr 6 08:59:34 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: OT: early rising (was: RE: Timonium Hamfest) In-Reply-To: <199904060204.MAA12246@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> References: <3708DB15.6922741C@rain.org> <199904051128.VAA07105@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990406085934.3017cf8c@intellistar.net> At 12:04 PM 4/6/99 +1000, Hum wrote: > >Well, there are these very organized "swap meets" where you can buy new >computer bits Go to them and stike up a conversation about old computers. You'll find lots of people that have old computers and are glad to give them to someone that will use them. That's how I found out about a big lot of XEROX stuff that I got last week. Word of mouth is still the most effective form of advertising. Joe From adavie at mad.scientist.com Tue Apr 6 07:59:06 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: FA: Compucolor II Message-ID: <008301be802d$42c14a80$45f438cb@davie> As the title says, I'm selling my Compucolor II computer. The URL is http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=87600036 I'm diverting my collecting interests into other areas, and need $$$ Cheers A From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Apr 6 07:59:13 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <199904060244.MAA12434@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> from Huw Davies at "Apr 6, 1999 12:44:19 pm" Message-ID: <199904061259.IAA40566@pechter.dyndns.org> > At 21:05 05/04/99 -0400, Max Eskin wrote: > > >I have heard of Airbuses crashing because the controls were poorly > >designed. I've never heard of a 777 crashing. I've also never heard of any > >medical machines failing, though this would tend to be underpublicized. > > The standard example is a certain brand of radio-therapy system (used to > treat cancer) which would occasionally give a dose several thousand times > higher than specified (this was usually fatal). I have more details at work > if anyone really needs to know... > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au > Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 > 1999 > La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" > If anyone wants to know about this it was the Therac-25. The Computer control was a PDP11 running RT11. The problem was the design and implementation of the application and the control radiation dose from the therapy machine. There's a number of sites on the web and a book on the subject. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 6 08:09:07 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: OT ABS ranting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > RE ABS > I love it, most racers I know love it, and IMNSHO you have it all wrong. > All it took for me was a couple passes on a wet track doing emergency lane > changes, with and without ABS in a small Audi. With ABS you stomp the > brakes and change lanes. Without ABS its a toss of the dice on your > reaction, skill, and the grip of the tires, and most people get to set up a > lot of orange cones after a spin. As someone that has done laps on the high bak of Louden (NH national speedway) I can say that skill helps. ABS is a big helper and as long as the tires are turning you can steer but one they start skidding your on a sled going the direction inertia dictates. Ask any serious racer what happens when the tires loose grip... Trusting a micro... Mission critical systems exist all over the place and failure modes range from fault tolerent to fail soft. Fail soft is the way ABS works, if it fails you still have conventional powerassisted brakes. A insulin pump has fault tolerencee where if one micro goes south there is another to: A) prevent excess insulin administration b) notify the user. Aircraft fault tolerence for fly by wire: A) notify the pilot! b) Continue operation (multiple systems with redundancy). c) not interfere with the backup systems (many). Teh real difficulty is defining a fault, and what actions must be taken if there is one. Allison From mbg at world.std.com Tue Apr 6 08:36:30 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: OT: early rising (was: RE: Timonium Hamfest) References: <3708DB15.6922741C@rain.org> <199904051128.VAA07105@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <199904061336.AA29226@world.std.com> There is a ham swapmeet this coming sunday in framingham, Mass... I'm not affiliated with the group... I just saw a sign this morning... 9am - 1pm I don't know how much computer stuff might be there... I suspect a little... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 6 10:33:46 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <000f01be8042$dcd38880$0100c0a8@fuj03> You're quite right that most software license agreements decline to warrant "suitability for any specific purpose," as a matter of the boilerplate, but DEC sales agreements, not the licenses, specifically dodged the question of their software doing anything of use at all. In any case, I found that distasteful and, from the point at which I learned of that, declined ever to associate myself with any DEC hardware or software again. I doubt that it's cost me even a dime to do so. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Ward D. Griffiths III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 05, 1999 10:27 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... >On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > >> I've yet to see ANY software license that guarantees the software will >> actually DO anything. Some do guarantee to take up space on a disk. >> That's about it. > >Actually, I've never seen a software license that guarantees to take >up disk space, though the bit on the outside generally implies you'd >best have a bunch to spare. Hell, I've only seen one _printed book_ >with a space guarantee, when Robert A. Heinlein in his _Expanded >Universe_ promised that the book would contain enough pages to hold >the covers apart or your money back. (Mind you, lots of computer >documentation would fail _that_ promise if they attempted it, be it >hardware or software manuals). >-- >Ward Griffiths >"the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then >you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor > From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Apr 4 22:27:00 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: [Fwd: FREE Computers - Especially for collectors! (AUS)] Message-ID: <37082D84.785D3AD3@halcyon.com> Heads up for you down under. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: FREE Computers - Especially for collectors! (AUS) Date: 5 Apr 99 02:48:51 -0900 From: "Lazy Bone" Organization: Badly Configured Clients, Inc. Newsgroups: alphalink.forsale,comp.os.cpm I have the following computers to give away if you collect them ASAP - otherwise I will throw them away: - Panther 128, 2 x 5.25" FDD, 6502 based, 128kb RAM? - TRS80 MC10 (appears complete) - TRS80 COCO - TRS80 COCO2 - CAT - Spectravideo SV318, Keyboard, Manual - Spectravideo SV328, Keyboard, Manual, SV601 Expander, 5.25" FDD (SV902), Cassette (SV903), CP/M 2.2... - SONY Hitbit HB75B MSX - Peach (Hitatchi MB6890) & software - Atari 800XL - Spectrum+ (needs keyboard replacement) & software - Apple 2e, 5.25" FDD, various expansion cards - Apple 2e clone, 5.25" FDD - BBC ModelB, Builtin modem & ROM, Colour Monitor, 2 x 5.25" FDD - Sinclair QL (Telecom ComputerPhone), 2 x microdrives - Microbee model 2, seikosha printer - Microbee model 2 - VZ300 - VZ300 (faulty?) - Sega Master System - Sega Master System 2 - Sega Megadrive 2 - Nintendo NES - Sinclair ZX81 in original box missing cables Since I picked up 40 or so computers from a friend today who is going abroad, I cannot keep the above because of lack of space. If you want to collect anything, please ring me ASAP on 03 98131630. Julian From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 6 11:00:46 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: FA: Compucolor II References: <008301be802d$42c14a80$45f438cb@davie> Message-ID: <370A2FAE.15377930@rain.org> Andrew Davie wrote: > > As the title says, I'm selling my Compucolor II computer. The URL is > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=87600036 There is another catagory, Computers: Hardware, Vintage, that might be a better catagory. So far, it looks like there is quite a bit of interesting stuff there! Part of the problem is that many people use a search engine, and might not find your listing so putting everything like this in one spot hopefully will reduce the reading load to something manageable. From elvey at hal.com Tue Apr 6 11:49:48 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199904061649.JAA11158@civic.hal.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > I have heard of Airbuses crashing because the controls were poorly > designed. I've never heard of a 777 crashing. I've also never heard of any > medical machines failing, though this would tend to be underpublicized. There was a case a while back that had a radiation machine. If one entered numbers too fast for the uP to keep up, it would put the output to full blast. As it recall, a couple of people were killed by it until they figured out what happened. Fact is, things fail, some fail because of human error and others just fail because of unseen flaws. Even horses some times stumble and break the necks of their riders. It is really all about risk assessment. As a hole, people tend to over react in some cases and under react in others. It is human nature. You can be a luddite or just enjoy life. Of course, you may also enjoy being a luddite. Dwight From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Apr 6 12:14:22 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: OT ABS ranting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Why the hell do we seem to have so many god damn ABS experts here!? Go away! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Apr 6 12:23:23 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <199904061649.JAA11158@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: Max Eskin wrote: > > I have heard of Airbuses crashing because the controls were poorly > designed. I've never heard of a 777 crashing. I've also never heard of any > medical machines failing, though this would tend to be underpublicized. Oh yes, my brother-in-law flies A-300's and told me about this. Apparently, this was the first all-electronic cockpit model. When you are about to land, there is a moment in which you have to decide whether you want to abort the landing or not (for whatever reason). After that, you have to land no matter what. At this point, the console in the plane in question asked the pilot whether he wanted to continue the landing or abort it. The thing is, the person who programmed this was a native french speaker, and apparently the question contained a double negation. Most pilots would choose the right answer, but this one was choosing to abort the landing when he meant to continue the landing procedure; the computer then would perform an overpass of the airport, without the pilot knowing why. They repeated the attempt to land several times, failing everytime because of the same reason. Also, the procedure was designed so that you could not simply take the computer offline and do everything manual. Eventually, they ran out of fuel. A classical case of bad operator interface design, with grave consequences. Carlos. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Apr 6 09:08:50 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: TRS Coco Computers In-Reply-To: References: <370969E8.641269EC@rain.org> Message-ID: <199904061808.OAA23302@smtp.interlog.com> On 5 Apr 99 at 23:27, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > What is the difference between the Coco2 and Coco3 computers? I ran across a > > couple of the Coco computers in the collection that look like the Coco2, but > > don't have either a 2 or a 3 on them. Also, are the cartridges that worked > > with the Coco1 compatible with the later models? Thanks. > > Well, my CoCo3s all say as a minimum Tandy 128k Color Computer 3, and > my CoCo2s indicate less memory IIRC (none within reach right now), but > I think at least the earlier Color Computer 2s are labeled Radio Shack > and I know none of the 3s were that I ever saw (now somebody is going > to see one I didn't, of course -- do any of you realise how many brain > cells I've killed since I quit Radio Shack in addition to those I > killed doing tech support for them from '80 to '86?) > -- > Ward Griffiths > "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then > you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor > > I have a CoCo, 2 model 2s, and a model 3. Perhaps the ones you saw came out between the CoCo 1 and 2. The ones TMK all just said CoCo. One of the 2s labelled Radio Shack responds 14xxx to print mem and the other labelled Tandy reponds 24xxx. The Tandy CoCo 3 has, as well as the RF jack, a video and audio jack, and an RGB plug on the underside. Not to tax your brain cells overly Ward but I was just getting a color screen and no prompt from the 3. I checked inside breaking the seal and voiding my warranty ( :^) )and saw 4 sockected 4464 chips (mem ?) which I remounted and one large square one which I take is MMU or ROM. All the rest including the '09 are flush mounted. I booted it again and the screen came up properly with a prompt. I did a print mem and it responded 24xxx . Is this normal because of banked memory or something or should I have gotten something closer to 128k ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From at258 at osfn.org Tue Apr 6 13:23:22 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: OT ABS ranting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The systems are simply small computing engines designed over 10 years ago. On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Why the hell do we seem to have so many god damn ABS experts here!? Go > away! > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From clintw at colorado.cirrus.com Tue Apr 6 13:30:10 1999 From: clintw at colorado.cirrus.com (Clint Wolff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture Message-ID: <199904061830.MAA02420@ws2044.colorado.cirrus.com> > > > Max Eskin wrote: > > > > I have heard of Airbuses crashing because the controls were poorly > > designed. I've never heard of a 777 crashing. I've also never heard of any > > medical machines failing, though this would tend to be underpublicized. > Actually, the THERAC-25 radiation therapy machine is a good example of poor hardware AND software design which killed a number of people by giving them too high a dose of radiation, either for too long or without the proper screen in place. clint From ss at allegro.com Tue Apr 6 13:30:39 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <09f101be7ee5$d1dffac0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.> Message-ID: <199904061830.LAA30300@bart.allegro.com> William writes: > My wish is for a computer system that provides for dynamically modifiable > microcode, so that my self-modifying programs could obtain a new level > of self-modifyability! Ah..a few decades too late :) The Burroughs B1700 (and B1800 and B1900) could have been used that way, I suppose. The machine had multiple microcode sets, executed by picocode. (IIRC, Picocode was written in an ALGOL-like language) I don't recall seeing any particularly protection mechanism that would have prevented you from modifying a microcode on the fly. The COBOL compiler determined which microcode to use, based on things like the number of variables used by the program being compiled. (If a program used a small number of variables, it could be compiled to a microcode instruction set that had more compact instructions because the number of address bits was smaller.) Another microcode instruction set was used for the primary OS programming language (SPL? XPL? can't recall). I seem to recall several other microcode sets being around as well. When processes were "time sliced" (multi-programming), the microcode was also time sliced. (I.e., process A might be using one microcode, while "simultaneously" process B might be using a different microcode). > As for the Lisp difficulties, remember, it takes only a few of the basic > operators to define the language. All else can be derived from same, > and AFAIK is derived from same. So, there is no need to implement > derivable functions in microcode. > > William R. Buckley > From acorda at nswc.navy.mil Tue Apr 6 12:51:36 1999 From: acorda at nswc.navy.mil (A. J. Corda) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: Needed: RM80 (for KS10 restoration project) Message-ID: <370A49A8.41C6@nswc.navy.mil> I've finally managed to partially satisfy my nostalgic obsession to resurrect a PDP-10. I just recently located a KS10, and, after a 480 mile mile trip in the back of my poor little pickup truck, it is now safely sitting in front of my garage (still in the truck... It will be _in_ the garage as soon as I can con a couple of my friends into giving me a hand. This is not a light load :-) The next thing I'm going to need is a Massbus drive (preferably, an RM80) If anyone has one of these that they would be willing to part with, please drop me an email note. I'm located in Virginia, but I'm willing to drive a reasonable distance to pick one of these critters up (the closer the better, of course :-) Shipping would be impractical. The other possibility is to build an adapter that I could stick in a PC which would emulate a Massbus device, but to do this, I'd need pretty complete specs on the Massbus (i.e. pinouts, timing, etc.) Does anyone happen to have this info? I've done a dejanews search, but nothing really useful turned up. If I can locate a partially complete RM80 (i.e. one with the Massbus to modified-SMD adapter still present and intact in the drive pedistal, then I might try to build an adapter to emulate the modified-SMD interface supported by the massbus adapter cardset. I suspect this might be a simpler emulation, but it would still require info on the modified-SMD interface supported by the RM80. If anyone has details on this interface, please let me know! BTW, I'm also on the lookout for TOPS-10 and/or TOPS-20 load tapes (or images thereof, or bits and pieces... whatever I can find that will get me closer to bringing this critter back to life! -Thanks in advance... -al -acorda@geocities.com From ss at allegro.com Tue Apr 6 13:44:32 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990404100141.00a9bbd0@mcmanis.com> References: Message-ID: <199904061844.LAA05600@bart.allegro.com> Re: > At 11:47 AM 4/4/99 -0400, Max wrote: > >So, an assembly language program for them would look like lisp, as opposed > >to MOVs, ADDs, and so forth? > > Nearly, the trick is that the machine code instructions are designed with > the high level language constructs in mind. So on a LISP machine there > might be an instruction: next ptr, ptr > Which follows a LISP list construct to the next element. At about the same time as UCSD Pascal was being developed, Bill Gord of the UCSD Computer Center invented a LISP P-Code as the target "machine" for the BBN LISP (later INTERLISP) compiler that we were working on for the Burroughs B6700. Since Bill and I officially worked for Dr Ken Bowles (head of UCSD Pascal), I assume that Bill and Ken talked about the two "P-systems"...but I don't know which came first. I still have the source for our LISP -> pcode compiler, somewhere. BTW, one of the motivations for P-Code (for Pascal *and* LISP) was security / data integrity. Jim Madden (of UCSD Computer Center) had ported Wirth's Pascal to the Burroughs B6500 / B6700 only to realize that the lack of compiler-enforced security checks on the tagless variant record concept meant that programmers could generate their own values for pointers ... which would allow them to defeat the largely compiler- based security on the B6700. The B6500 line had no real hardware security (e.g., ring levels, page-level protection, etc ... it was nearly 100% software-enforced secuirty. ALGOL's pointers were restricted to point only within an array...which had hardware bounds checking. FORTRAN and COBOL didn't have pointers, and (with hardware bounds checking) had no method of generating random data addresses ... this meant that security on the B6700 was reasonably good. Unless you could generate your own code somehow :) (Normally, modifying existing program files would cause them to be marked as non-executable) Anyway, the P-Code implementation provided a means of implementing a language *and* having 100% control of the data accessed by the programs written in that language. This was probably one factor, in addition to the obvious portability aspects, that influenced the P-Code project. SS From gram at cnct.com Tue Apr 6 14:11:09 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: TRS Coco Computers In-Reply-To: <199904061808.OAA23302@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > Not to tax your brain cells overly Ward but I was just getting a color screen > and no prompt from the 3. I checked inside breaking the seal and voiding my > warranty ( :^) )and saw 4 sockected 4464 chips (mem ?) which I remounted and > one large square one which I take is MMU or ROM. All the rest including the '09 > are flush mounted. I booted it again and the screen came up properly with a > prompt. I did a print mem and it responded 24xxx . Is this normal because of > banked memory or something or should I have gotten something closer to 128k From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Apr 6 14:17:11 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <199904061830.MAA02420@ws2044.colorado.cirrus.com> from "Clint Wolff" at Apr 6, 99 12:30:10 pm Message-ID: <199904061917.LAA06832@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 965 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/4ac05998/attachment.ksh From clintw at colorado.cirrus.com Tue Apr 6 14:54:54 1999 From: clintw at colorado.cirrus.com (Clint Wolff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture Message-ID: <199904061954.NAA02457@ws2044.colorado.cirrus.com> > > ::> > I have heard of Airbuses crashing because the controls were poorly > ::> > designed. I've never heard of a 777 crashing. I've also never heard of any > ::> > medical machines failing, though this would tend to be underpublicized. > > ::Actually, the THERAC-25 radiation therapy machine is a good example of > ::poor hardware AND software design which killed a number of people by > ::giving them too high a dose of radiation, either for too long or > ::without the proper screen in place. > > !?! > > Has this been documented anywhere? Where did you find this out from? > I read an article about it several years ago, but I don't remember what magazine it was it... One of the IEEE or ACM periodicals, I think. A quick Alta-Vista search on "therac" turns up 476 matches, but a lot of them are CS student papers. Take a look at http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~cs3604/lib/Therac_25/Therac_1.html This is a reprint from IEEE Computer (might even be the original article I saw :) clint From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Apr 6 15:26:12 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: Apple stuff.... Message-ID: <19990406202612.13815.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jason Willgruber wrote: > Does anyone have (or know where to get) an old (b/w) Apple > ImageWriter printer for under $20? I have an untested ImageWriter that I got last month that was attached to the Apple //c+ that was the object of my interest. I would be willing to let it go for $20 plus shipping. > I also need a cable to connect an Apple //c to a printer. I only have the one cable that came with the //c+. I could get you the pinout if you needed it. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Apr 6 15:29:20 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: Needed: RM80 (for KS10 restoration project) In-Reply-To: <370A49A8.41C6@nswc.navy.mil> Message-ID: <4.1.19990406132750.00c96350@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I've got an RM80 on the west coast that you can have. Unfortunately it doesn't meet the "short driving" criteria. It would be interesting to see what it would cost to put it on a train however... --Chuck At 10:51 AM 4/6/99 -0700, you wrote: >The next thing I'm going to need is a Massbus >drive (preferably, an RM80) If anyone has one of >these that they would be willing to part with, >please drop me an email note. I'm located in From dogas at leading.net Tue Apr 6 15:24:01 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s Message-ID: <01be806b$6888bbc0$d3c962cf@devlaptop> My vacation/computer-rescue-mission has come to a close and there is now a big honkin pile of trs-80 6000 and 16b toys on my living room floor. :) Several of them have broken this or thatsz but the first one I pulled, a 6000hd 15mhd, booted into Xenix 3.0.1 I think (Microsoft '84). the 68k in it crashed after about 20min of xenix frolicking. She's resting now. I'd like cc and tcp for this if anyone can help me out? I 'm sure some parts will be available as soon as I figure out what I have. Software, give me software or give me death. ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Apr 6 18:51:31 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS Message-ID: <01be8088$6520ab60$b18ea6d1@the-general> *Having had decades of extensive driving during the long cold winters in *western Canada, Qebec and Ontario , I would consider myself a quite skilled *slippery road driver. The worst thing you can do when you go into a skid is *lock your brakes. The best is to turn into the skid and use your accellerator *and steering to bring it back under control. I would rather have any brake *action under my control and hope I can steer out of it without using them.There *are courses up here which teach this technique. ABS seems just damnright *dangerous to me, What happens when that novice (or anyone for that matter) who is used to ABS, when the ABS system fails? * except perhaps for the complete novice who would lock his *brakes out of fear and inexperience. I have also had experiences of *power-steering failure one of which resulted in a serious accident for myself. * *ciao larry *lwalker@interlog.com * *Collectors info http://members.xoom.com/T3C * From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Apr 6 19:09:52 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS/wheel sensors Message-ID: <01be808a$f54c19c0$b18ea6d1@the-general> I'm not sure if anyone else knows about what I'm talking about, but in my Jeep (pre-ABS), there's a little panel on the dashboard (not original). There's 4 LED's on the panel (one corresponding to each wheel). When the wheel corresponding to a particular LED is completely stopped, the LED lights steadily red. When the wheel is turning, the LED flashes green (one flash for each revolution). Anyone know how this would work (with out me pulling it out of my Jeep)? It would be probably a good accessory for non-ABS cars. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From mbg at world.std.com Tue Apr 6 16:22:51 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: ! Heads Up ! -- System becoming available Message-ID: <199904062122.AA28909@world.std.com> Just wanted to let eveyone know that I have been contacted by someone who works for a company where they have three (3) KS10s. One of the machines is *CURRENTLY OPERATIONAL*. One was shut down several months ago, and the person who wrote to me doesn't know about the third. There are nine (9) RP06 disk drives distributed between the three systems, two additional ones are broken. Two tape drives are on line (with problems) and one is broken (one TM03 and two TU77s). The computers are in a room without a raised floor, so the cables are simply laying around. The terms are that we (whoever) takes the equipment must do so at their own cost, and must take everything, including cables and non-working units. Dismantling can start April 21st, removal has to be by April 27th. No later than this. The KS10s take up about 6sqft of floor space each, and are about 600 lbs., the RP06s apparently take up about 7-9 sqft and I don't know how much they weight. I don't know about the tape drives. Someone told me it may be between 6000 and 8000 lbs all together... Systems are located in Cambridge, Massachussetts. We need to give an answer by April 13th at the latest. I suspect that if it isn't saved, it will go to the scrapheap, landfill, crusher, . So, is anyone game? Please contact me off-list. I'll *try* to coordinate this. This is a chance to handle some *REAL IRON*... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue Apr 6 16:34:47 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s Message-ID: <01BE8053.C5160C70.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Tuesday, April 06, 1999 4:24 PM, Mike [SMTP:dogas@leading.net] wrote: > My vacation/computer-rescue-mission has come to a close and there is now a > big honkin pile of trs-80 6000 and 16b toys on my living room floor. :) > Several of them have broken this or thatsz but the first one I pulled, a > 6000hd 15mhd, booted into Xenix 3.0.1 I think (Microsoft '84). the 68k in > it crashed after about 20min of xenix frolicking. She's resting now. I'd > like cc and tcp for this if anyone can help me out? I 'm sure some parts > will be available as soon as I figure out what I have. Software, give me > software or give me death. > > ;) > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > Mike, Nice haul... A couple of weeks ago, I got a Model 2 and a Model 16 sans keyboards. Both machines had been in storage for a long time and were absolutely filthy. After careful disassembly, cleaning, and reassembly, the Model 2 returned to life. Another list member has located a keyboard for me (thanks) so, that one is complete. I haven't found a boot disk for it yet but, I'm sure it'll work just fine. Last weekend I opened up the Model 16 to see if it could be resurrected. The hard drive had been previously removed but it looks like everything else is there. After the ritual cleaning, I applied power to the computer and promptly smoked the floppy drive. One of the traces on the PCB lit up like a freakin Christmas tree. DAMN! I'm surprised it didn't blow a fuse or something. I haven't looked at the drive too closely so, I'm not really sure what happened there. If it is a power supply problem, the whole machine could be history. I'm hoping it was a problem with the floppy and didn't kill anything else. I have not been able to get a trace on the CRT and really don't have the enough tools to properly diagnose the problem. I did however notice the filament on the CRT was glowing and the cooling fans were running. I believe the fans get power from the 110AC primary and the filament could be from an unregulated source. So, this doesn't totally eliminate a Power Supply problem. Can anyone tell me what voltages should appear on the PS connectors? Is there an easy way to determine if the processor is alive? Unfortunately, I don't have a scope or logic probe :-( If anyone can suggest a good source for a Logic Probe, I'll consider buying one? If I'm unable to get this thing working, I'll make the parts available. The case and CRT are in really good condition so, don't trash any of the Model 16 parts yet. Between us, we should be able to put another one together. Good Luck, Steve Robertson - From stan at netcom.com Tue Apr 6 16:58:38 1999 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS/wheel sensors References: <01be808a$f54c19c0$b18ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <370A838E.EDD308F3@netcom.com> Jason Willgruber wrote: > > I'm not sure if anyone else knows about what I'm talking about, but in my > Jeep (pre-ABS), there's a little panel on the dashboard (not original). > There's 4 LED's on the panel (one corresponding to each wheel). When the > wheel corresponding to a particular LED is completely stopped, the LED > lights steadily red. When the wheel is turning, the LED flashes green (one > flash for each revolution). > > Anyone know how this would work (with out me pulling it out of my Jeep)? It > would be probably a good accessory for non-ABS cars. > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > It's probably a similar system to the one used by Etak with their early car navigation systems. Basically, they used a special adhesive tape that contained a small bar magnet every inch along its length. This was applied to the circumference of the inside of each front wheel rim, and a Hall effect sensor was attached to a point on the front axle (usually to a part of the brake caliper assembly) where it was within an inch of this tape as it passed by. Each magnet passage would produce a countable pulse, and the Etak computer could determine the wheel speed and direction of rotation for each front wheel. *Supposedly* it could also detect a turn by the differential speed of the front wheels, but it also had a flux gate compass to help determine direction and turns. A pretty clever system that worked quite well, considering it was all done without reference to external navigation data sources like GPS, LORAN, etc! Since your system apparently produces only a single pulse per revolution, I would guess there's one magnet somewhere on each wheel rim. The speed resolution with only a single pulse per revolution is probably not good enough for ABS use. Hope this helps, Stan From dogas at leading.net Tue Apr 6 17:00:36 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! Message-ID: <01be8078$e6cd5600$d3c962cf@devlaptop> Amen. :) - Mike: dogas@leading.net -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 03, 1999 11:44 PM Subject: Hallelujah! >I've finally gotten around to reading a LISP book that I had bought months >before, and I can see why people refer to LISP as a religious experience >(I've seen that said at least twice). It's really a wonderful language. I >wonder how it is worse than BASIC or Perl. Also, although I didn't really >take the time to really understand smalltalk (Squeak is slow and >unstable), I can see the beginnings of smalltalk in LISP. Wow. This thing >really is pretty amazing. This should be taught in every computer >programming course, along with PAL-8, C, and Perl. I am now certain that >if a language is hard to learn (C++ comes to mind), there's something >wrong with it :) > >--Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > > From dogas at leading.net Tue Apr 6 17:13:59 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: Last Chance for GRiDPad's Message-ID: <01be807a$c4f1d0e0$d3c962cf@devlaptop> Hi Uncle, been away for several days... Did I miss anything? Thanks - Mike From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Apr 6 17:41:31 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:52 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: <01be8088$6520ab60$b18ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: >*Having had decades of extensive driving during the long cold winters in >*western Canada, Qebec and Ontario , I would consider myself a quite skilled >*slippery road driver. The worst thing you can do when you go into a skid is >*lock your brakes. The best is to turn into the skid and use your >accellerator >*and steering to bring it back under control. I would rather have any brake >*action under my control and hope I can steer out of it without using >them.There >*are courses up here which teach this technique. ABS seems just damnright >*dangerous to me, > >What happens when that novice (or anyone for that matter) who is used to >ABS, >when the ABS system fails? The novice has no business in snow or ice, they will slide off the road and crash. ABS is not a common item to fail. Worry about bad tires, sticky throttles (my Mustang is a load of fun when the throttle sticks wide open), drunk drivers, bad lug nuts, falling rocks, bad radio reception, etc. and forget about ABS it just isn't some big problem. From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Apr 6 20:12:09 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS/wheel sensors Message-ID: <01be8093$a8f61540$448ea6d1@the-general> I wonder is it would be possible to devise something that would use some sort of disc with a bunch of holes in it and the sensors from an old (8"?) floppy drive? A desperate attempt to get this somewhat back on topic :) -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 =============================== ---------------Original Message----- From: Stan Perkins To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 3:01 PM Subject: Re: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS/wheel sensors > >It's probably a similar system to the one used by Etak with their early >car navigation systems. Basically, they used a special adhesive tape >that contained a small bar magnet every inch along its length. This was >applied to the circumference of the inside of each front wheel rim, and >a Hall effect sensor was attached to a point on the front axle (usually >to a part of the brake caliper assembly) where it was within an inch of >this tape as it passed by. Each magnet passage would produce a countable >pulse, and the Etak computer could determine the wheel speed and >direction of rotation for each front wheel. *Supposedly* it could also >detect a turn by the differential speed of the front wheels, but it also >had a flux gate compass to help determine direction and turns. > >A pretty clever system that worked quite well, considering it was all >done without reference to external navigation data sources like GPS, >LORAN, etc! > >Since your system apparently produces only a single pulse per >revolution, I would guess there's one magnet somewhere on each wheel >rim. The speed resolution with only a single pulse per revolution is >probably not good enough for ABS use. > >Hope this helps, >Stan > From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Tue Apr 6 18:07:38 1999 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: HP 88780 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: <19990404002327.24210@firepower> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Apr 1999, Sergey Svishchev wrote: > G'day, > > Yesterday four geeks (including myself) had tried to convince a HP 88780 > 9-track SCSI drive (cleverly disguised as Tandem 5160) to accept 6250 bpi > tapes. It works OK at 1600 bpi, but refuses to admit it knows about 6250: > "mt setdensity 3" on a Linux box results in "Incompatible media installed" > error (when the tape written at 6250 bpi is loaded.) > > The problem is: no docs. By playing with front panel buttons, we > discovered lots of interesting knobs to turn (CONF 40..199), but weren't > inclined to try them all. What CONF will allow 6250 bpi density to be > used? Or is it permanently disabled by Tandem-customized firmware? > > You didn't mention which kernel you're running or the host adapter. I think there have been quite a few improvements to the st and scsi drivers in the 2.2.x kernels. Upgrading to 2.2.1 solved a lot of tape problems for me--none of them fatal, but all of them frustrating, like failure to properly detect EOD, EOT, etc. It might be a good idea to have a look at /usr/src/linux/drivers/scsi/ for any readmes on your host adapter. -- David Wollmann DST / DST Data Conversion http://www.ibmhelp.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 6 15:44:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <004901be7fc8$6588bf40$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 5, 99 06:56:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2272 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/fdcd969f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 6 15:47:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <19990406010523.1904.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 6, 99 01:05:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 691 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/8315b5b9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 6 15:56:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: TRS Coco Computers In-Reply-To: <370969E8.641269EC@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Apr 5, 99 06:56:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1574 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/5ec6cafb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 6 16:44:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <199904060223.MAA11484@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> from "Huw Davies" at Apr 6, 99 12:23:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 570 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/bf3ec6bb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 6 16:51:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS In-Reply-To: from "Merle K. Peirce" at Apr 5, 99 10:51:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 462 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/9a6de3d7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 6 17:17:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: TRS Coco Computers In-Reply-To: <199904061808.OAA23302@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Apr 6, 99 02:08:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1101 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990406/aa42eda2/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Apr 6 18:28:27 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s In-Reply-To: <01BE8053.C5160C70.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Steve Robertson wrote: > After careful disassembly, cleaning, and reassembly, the Model 2 returned > to life. Another list member has located a keyboard for me (thanks) so, > that one is complete. I haven't found a boot disk for it yet but, I'm sure > it'll work just fine. I recently made a CP/M and TRSDOS-II boot disk for another list member and I'd be happy to do the same for both you and Mike. Of course, you'll probably have to wait as long as Aaron did (about 6 weeks). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Apr 6 18:32:54 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: ! Heads Up ! -- System becoming available In-Reply-To: <199904062122.AA28909@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Megan wrote: > Just wanted to let eveyone know that I have been contacted by someone > who works for a company where they have three (3) KS10s. One of the > machines is *CURRENTLY OPERATIONAL*. One was shut down several months > ago, and the person who wrote to me doesn't know about the third. As premonated... Let the Y2K salvage begin! (I hope someone gets this!) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 6 19:02:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s In-Reply-To: <01BE8053.C5160C70.steverob@hotoffice.com> from "Steve Robertson" at Apr 6, 99 05:34:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1920 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990407/33420bee/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Tue Apr 6 21:14:39 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s In-Reply-To: <01be806b$6888bbc0$d3c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Mike wrote: > My vacation/computer-rescue-mission has come to a close and there is now a > big honkin pile of trs-80 6000 and 16b toys on my living room floor. :) > Several of them have broken this or thatsz but the first one I pulled, a > 6000hd 15mhd, booted into Xenix 3.0.1 I think (Microsoft '84). the 68k in > it crashed after about 20min of xenix frolicking. She's resting now. I'd > like cc and tcp for this if anyone can help me out? I 'm sure some parts > will be available as soon as I figure out what I have. Software, give me > software or give me death. tcp/ip for Tandy 16/6000 Xenix never existed to the best of my knowledge -- and I do try to keep up. There was never ethernet and there were never Xenix drivers for the Model II arcnet cards. And no sign of slip even. If it existed, I'd be running it. For cc, you need either the development set or a precompiled gcc. I've got those, but my 6000 isn't talking to its HD right now. You might want to inventory any other HDs that came in this batch. And inventory the hardware including add-in boards -- you might have a piece or two I'd deal for. (I have a _lot_ of Tandy Xenix install media, including the dev set, but 8" diskettes to make copies on are getting harder to find). I'm especially interested in the few non-Tandy boards that were out there, especially those by Snapp. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From dogas at leading.net Tue Apr 6 21:01:48 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s Message-ID: <01be809a$98add2c0$c4c962cf@devlaptop> I don't think I have cp/m. I've got a bunch of software mothballed for just this occasion but havent got to it yet. Ahhh... software.... good. good. Does the 6 weeks start today? :) - Mike: dogas@leading.net -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 7:29 PM Subject: RE: Chicago trs-80s >On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Steve Robertson wrote: > >> After careful disassembly, cleaning, and reassembly, the Model 2 returned >> to life. Another list member has located a keyboard for me (thanks) so, >> that one is complete. I haven't found a boot disk for it yet but, I'm sure >> it'll work just fine. > >I recently made a CP/M and TRSDOS-II boot disk for another list member and >I'd be happy to do the same for both you and Mike. Of course, you'll >probably have to wait as long as Aaron did (about 6 weeks). > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > > From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Apr 6 21:14:07 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Industrial PeeCee Message-ID: I am looking for an "Industrial" IBM-compat PC... the kind that is mounted in a 19" rack enclosure with a small monitor integral to the box, and usually a keyboard underneath on a slide-shelf. My purpose is to run one of the PDP11 sims and Linux, and to function as a more modern 'peripheral farm' and a comm node to my Real PDP collection. I am looking for a 486 or Pentium I unit with 8-16 meg of RAM, .5 - 1.5 G HD, compatible BIOS and able to run Win95... if it *has* to. One serial, one parallel, one SCSI, and Ethernet, or capable of supporting all these at once. I am looking to trade or buy. Obviously I prefer not to have to buy new, I would much rather keep it 'local'. NOTE: ABS braking is neither required nor desired on the above unit. Cheerz John From gram at cnct.com Tue Apr 6 21:30:36 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s In-Reply-To: <01BE8053.C5160C70.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Steve Robertson wrote: > After careful disassembly, cleaning, and reassembly, the Model 2 returned > to life. Another list member has located a keyboard for me (thanks) so, > that one is complete. I haven't found a boot disk for it yet but, I'm sure > it'll work just fine. The Model 2 keyboard would work fine on a Model 16 if the Model 16 has the same case shape as the 2 -- or is it a 16b? which needs a gender change as a minimum. > Last weekend I opened up the Model 16 to see if it could be resurrected. > The hard drive had been previously removed but it looks like everything Hmm? No Model 16 ever contained a hard drive -- do you mean the board to attach an external? The only machine in that series that ever had an internal HD was the Tandy 6000HD. The original 16 could not have that upgrade as could the 12/16b/6000 due to lack of room. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From gram at cnct.com Tue Apr 6 21:41:22 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I recently made a CP/M and TRSDOS-II boot disk for another list member and > I'd be happy to do the same for both you and Mike. Of course, you'll > probably have to wait as long as Aaron did (about 6 weeks). Remember that TRSDOS-II won't work on a Model 2 without an arcnet or hard disk card. A stock Mod 2 uses TRSDOS 2.0a. (or 2.0 or 1.2, let's not discuss 1.2 please). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From at258 at osfn.org Tue Apr 6 21:38:43 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS/wheel sensors In-Reply-To: <01be8093$a8f61540$448ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: Oh! magnetic media ABS! On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > I wonder is it would be possible to devise something that would use some > sort of disc with a bunch of holes in it and the sensors from an old (8"?) > floppy drive? > > A desperate attempt to get this somewhat back on topic :) > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > =============================== > > ---------------Original Message----- > From: Stan Perkins > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 3:01 PM > Subject: Re: OT: ABS - or is it Pure BS/wheel sensors > > > >It's probably a similar system to the one used by Etak with their early > >car navigation systems. Basically, they used a special adhesive tape > >that contained a small bar magnet every inch along its length. This was > >applied to the circumference of the inside of each front wheel rim, and > >a Hall effect sensor was attached to a point on the front axle (usually > >to a part of the brake caliper assembly) where it was within an inch of > >this tape as it passed by. Each magnet passage would produce a countable > >pulse, and the Etak computer could determine the wheel speed and > >direction of rotation for each front wheel. *Supposedly* it could also > >detect a turn by the differential speed of the front wheels, but it also > >had a flux gate compass to help determine direction and turns. > > > >A pretty clever system that worked quite well, considering it was all > >done without reference to external navigation data sources like GPS, > >LORAN, etc! > > > >Since your system apparently produces only a single pulse per > >revolution, I would guess there's one magnet somewhere on each wheel > >rim. The speed resolution with only a single pulse per revolution is > >probably not good enough for ABS use. > > > >Hope this helps, > >Stan > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 6 22:00:23 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <199904070300.AA10549@world.std.com> I have never had a desire for DEC hardware, mainly because of my distast <> (and disdain) for their application of technology, and of course for thei Personal preference. I happen to like them and they seem to run a long time. At least all of mine still runs and the 11/03 cpu I have has turned 20! See . . . there are reasons NOT to use a terminal. < <> To put this slightly on topic, we all know that computer systems have <> become more reliable in the last 20 years but does anyone have any real Potentially they are. there are fewer chips and connectors to fail and chips can be highly reliable however... The average PC is tossed togeher from a motly assortment of parts and software and usually works, sometimes. With that cases are more a fashon statment rather than given the thought toward cooling... those 333mhz celerons do get mightly hot and those cheap bushing fans do fail often. When new system have the uptime records of my 12 year old uVAXII we can debate this... the record is 422 days contuinious uptime without reboot, it was limited by a power failure. I've built Z80 based systems with uptimes measured in years (still counting as they are battery backed). They are running very debugged code and power failure is not seen due to power systems that expect brownouts. It's not to say they cannot out do that, only that reliability is a measure of quality and sadly most PCs greatly lack the latter. Technology does not automagically beget reliability, it affords the opportunity to create it. Often that boat never docked at the airport. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 6 22:13:17 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <000c01be80a4$959def20$0100c0a8@fuj03> It is exactly that. . . a YMMV thing . . . My experience with terminals was always a disappointment. I can't even think of a way to fix it. The people who wrote and sold software made assumptions about what's out there, and, if you used three different vendors' software, it was unlikely any of the sophisticated features, including emulations, by the way, would work well enough to use the same terminal in all cases. Only with the lowest common denominator (ADM-3A) did one have a reasonable time of it. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 9:08 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... > >AS someone actively running s100 and assorted other cpm systems... A soft >terminal that can emulate ADM1, ADM3, Vt100 and telvideo covers the crowd >right up until you get some oddball code that used a 64x16 VDM1. The >reality was no standards and it's really not gotten that much better. > >My solution... An H19 thats over 21, A vt100 (all others are broken), >a few Vt320s and a Vt340. The thing is I also run DEC hardware and while >they will support any ansi tube a real VT is still easier to use. > ><> I have never had a desire for DEC hardware, mainly because of my distast ><> (and disdain) for their application of technology, and of course for thei > >Personal preference. I happen to like them and they seem to run a long >time. At least all of mine still runs and the 11/03 cpu I have has turned >20! > > >therein is the essence of the string and why terminals are somewhat nicer >even if they lack color graphics you can play doom on. > ><> See . . . there are reasons NOT to use a terminal. >< > >I'll add you still need a serial line for a modem. Then you still need a >printer. CPM being a nongraphic OS and there is a distinct lack of >software that uses graphics for it... kind of a moot point if you can >have a 1280x1024 color tube. I can say this as I have a visual 1050 >that has a rather elaborate display system and there is lttle use for it >save for it can emulate a terminal at a cost of another micro, ram and >firmware to run it. Nothing like debuging two systems and blind at that. > >Allison > From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Apr 6 22:38:34 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Timonium Hamfest Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990406184936.0c6fc8ae@ricochet.net> At 11:14 AM 4/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >Almost every computer involved person I know who >has any control of their work schedule: > >1) Gets up after the sun has properly warmed the earth > where they live Dysania: (n) an inability to function early in the morning. I've got it bad. (It's a real word, at least according to Balderdash, a commercial version of the game Dictionary.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Apr 6 22:38:36 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Last Chance for GRiDPad's Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990406192358.0c6fc34e@ricochet.net> At 06:13 PM 4/6/99 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Uncle, been away for several days... Did I miss anything? Nope, still working on getting them out. My dad is currently sorting/separating cables. Be patient, everybody. (Paying the mortgage is a little higher priority. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Apr 6 22:47:08 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Timonium Hamfest Message-ID: <199904070347.UAA29083@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > From: Uncle Roger > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: Timonium Hamfest > Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 1:08 > Dysania: (n) an inability to function early in the morning. > > I've got it bad That makes two of us. Had it long as I can remember. Didn't know there was a name for it. You learn something every day.... Cheers Geoff VK5KDR From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Apr 6 23:43:38 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Identify this vector Graphics machine In-Reply-To: <199904070347.UAA29083@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I stumbled upon a all in one box this evening at a Thrift store. It was missing a keyboard which may hook up on the front phone line like connector marked "Control". Below the Video was a 5.25 Hard drive in the left bay and a full size 5.25 inch floppy in the right bay. On the back of the machine were two serial ports, two parallel ports and a single 9 pin port marked "RGB". The back of the box had a "Vector Graphics" label. The front had a label that read: VZX Again no keyboard or software. Any ideas what this creature is? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 6 23:54:39 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Identify this vector Graphics machine References: Message-ID: <370AE50F.9723122C@rain.org> George Rachor wrote: > > I stumbled upon a all in one box this evening at a Thrift store. It was > missing a keyboard which may hook up on the front phone line like > connector marked "Control". > > Below the Video was a 5.25 Hard drive in the left bay and a full size 5.25 > inch floppy in the right bay. > > On the back of the machine were two serial ports, two parallel ports and a > single 9 pin port marked "RGB". > > The back of the box had a "Vector Graphics" label. The front had a label > that read: > VZX > > Again no keyboard or software. Any ideas what this creature is? This sounds like the Vector 4. I only have one and it is the only one I have seen so I don't know how common they are/were. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Apr 6 20:09:01 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: ! Heads Up ! -- System becoming available In-Reply-To: References: <199904062122.AA28909@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199904070508.BAA08978@smtp.interlog.com> On 6 Apr 99 at 16:32, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Megan wrote: > > > Just wanted to let eveyone know that I have been contacted by someone > > who works for a company where they have three (3) KS10s. One of the > > machines is *CURRENTLY OPERATIONAL*. One was shut down several months > > ago, and the person who wrote to me doesn't know about the third. > > As premonated... > > Let the Y2K salvage begin! > > (I hope someone gets this!) > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Or from our perspective, Let the Feast Begin. Taa Daaa ! Now to find space !! Might be an interesting few years. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Apr 6 20:09:02 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199904070508.BAA09003@smtp.interlog.com> On 6 Apr 99 at 22:41, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > I recently made a CP/M and TRSDOS-II boot disk for another list member and > > I'd be happy to do the same for both you and Mike. Of course, you'll > > probably have to wait as long as Aaron did (about 6 weeks). > Remember that TRSDOS-II won't work on a Model 2 without an arcnet or > hard disk card. A stock Mod 2 uses TRSDOS 2.0a. (or 2.0 or 1.2, let's > not discuss 1.2 please). > -- > Ward Griffiths > "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then > you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor > In my cache of disks for my model 2 which has been abandoned for about 6 mo I seem to remember a TRSDOS v 4.x or am I dreaming ? ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 7 00:44:32 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > I recently made a CP/M and TRSDOS-II boot disk for another list member and > > I'd be happy to do the same for both you and Mike. Of course, you'll > > probably have to wait as long as Aaron did (about 6 weeks). > Remember that TRSDOS-II won't work on a Model 2 without an arcnet or > hard disk card. A stock Mod 2 uses TRSDOS 2.0a. (or 2.0 or 1.2, let's > not discuss 1.2 please). That's odd. Why not? I don't know that the Model 2 I have has either. All I know is that I put the system disks I have in the drive and they come up. The CP/M version btw is Pickles & Trout v2.2. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 7 01:04:28 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Identify this vector Graphics machine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, George Rachor wrote: > I stumbled upon a all in one box this evening at a Thrift store. It was > missing a keyboard which may hook up on the front phone line like > connector marked "Control". > > Below the Video was a 5.25 Hard drive in the left bay and a full size 5.25 > inch floppy in the right bay. > > On the back of the machine were two serial ports, two parallel ports and a > single 9 pin port marked "RGB". > > The back of the box had a "Vector Graphics" label. The front had a label > that read: > VZX > > Again no keyboard or software. Any ideas what this creature is? Got a digital camera handy? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 7 01:05:27 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Identify this vector Graphics machine In-Reply-To: <370AE50F.9723122C@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: > > The back of the box had a "Vector Graphics" label. The front had a label > > that read: > > VZX > > > > Again no keyboard or software. Any ideas what this creature is? > > This sounds like the Vector 4. I only have one and it is the only one I have > seen so I don't know how common they are/were. I have one too (courtesy of Fred Cisin). But I can't remember if it fits George's description exactly. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Apr 7 00:29:16 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Two 4869 floppy drives In-Reply-To: <01be809a$98add2c0$c4c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: In todays wanderings I found two seemingly very nice condition 4869 external floppy drives, they were not cheap, but then I don't know what cheap for them would be. If anybody is interested email me as I will return to that haunt on Thursday. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Apr 7 02:30:39 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Identify this vector Graphics machine In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 6, 99 11:04:28 pm Message-ID: <199904070730.AAA22796@saul9.u.washington.edu> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, George Rachor wrote: > > I stumbled upon a all in one box this evening at a Thrift store. It was > > missing a keyboard which may hook up on the front phone line like > > connector marked "Control". > Got a digital camera handy? Just a note -- Please don't post attachments to the list if you can avoid it. Some of the members object (including me -- I'm currently using a slow connection and Elm doesn't handle MIME very well and I hate Pine). It's much friendlier to put the images on the Web and then post the URL. Thanks, -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Apr 7 03:33:47 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Corvus Concept (was Re: Y2K stuff) In-Reply-To: <199901092353.PAA27561@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Jan 9, 99 03:53:06 pm Message-ID: <199904070833.BAA22690@saul9.u.washington.edu> Digging into my "received" folder of e-mail, I found that you wrote: > "D. Peschel" wrote: > > I guess posting something on-topic is the best solutioon. Does anyone have > > a Corvus Concept? I bet Blockout (3D Tetris) would look pretty cool on it. > What do you think a Corvus Concept would bring to Blockout? I don't know, > and it's been years since I played Tetris. Mostly the high-resolution graphics and possibly a tall aspect ratio of the monitor. Radius Pivot monitors are very rectangular (they're either very tall or very wide) -- does the Concept screen look the same way? I'm very curious about graphics workstations for a couple of reasons -- 1) I'm always trying to satisfy a fantasy that there is some ancient computer that's "better" (faster, more powerful) compared to modern hardware. I doubt that's true if you consider a modern top-of-the-line PC or Mac system, but if you consider PCs of a few years ago, or the original PC or the original Mac, it may be true. I just saw a picutre of a Concept, and it seemed to be running a decent- looking GUI. Is that realistic? 2) I do believe that PCs make terrible use of the hardware and firmware they have; the Mac may make better use but it's much harder to tweak the hardware directly. So it's always pleasant to hear about a machine that has nice, programmer-accessible hardware, sane routines for using it, and software that makes imaginative use of the hardware (say, by having a "terminal mode" but with extra redefinable characters, instead of just ASCII). Whether that's true of the Concept only you can tell me. :) [snip description of VERT/HORIZ switch] Somehow I was hoping that the "monitor-turning" hardware was more foolproof. Oh well. OTOH I've seen mis-emulated software on my computer which gave a sideways picture. In that case it might be GOOD to have the monitor and the switch (on the Concept) "out of synch". -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Apr 7 04:12:08 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: sending you a book? Message-ID: <199904070912.CAA25578@saul9.u.washington.edu> I asked you about a book I got for you; you seemed interested but I still want to confirm. Also I need your postal address. -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Apr 7 04:23:14 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: sending you a book? In-Reply-To: <199904070912.CAA25578@saul9.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Apr 7, 99 02:12:08 am Message-ID: <199904070923.CAA25291@saul9.u.washington.edu> > I asked you about a book I got for you; you seemed interested but I still > want to confirm. Also I need your postal address. Oops... obviously, no matter how long mail sits in my "received" folder, it never magically changes its "From:" line. Sorry. -- Derek From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Apr 7 05:23:39 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: NY/CA connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, ClassicCmp. I know this is poor etiquette, but I'm not subscribed, so please send any responses directly to me. I'm interested in nabbing a couple of way obscure machines sitting in NY. They might not be available after a week elapses, and they're too big to ship cheaply (the machines themselves are under 100lbs each, but the docs add another 200lbs or so, and the machines are about as wide as a desk). So, was anybody planning on a nice drive from NY to CA in a big station wagon any time soon? Short of that, would a NY collector be willing to nab this stuff on my behalf and store it until I can find a good way of getting it here? Even shorter of that, any suggestions on the cheapest way to ship 300-400lbs of unwieldy stuff cross-country? -- Doug -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Blinkenlights Archaeological Institute Featuring... http://www.blinkenlights.com/ Nearly Forgotten Personal Computers From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Apr 7 05:59:00 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s References: Message-ID: <370B3A74.8A7124FD@hotoffice.com> Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > The Model 2 keyboard would work fine on a Model 16 if the Model 16 has > the same case shape as the 2 -- or is it a 16b? which needs a gender > change as a minimum. Now that I can read it, he label on the front on the machine says it's a Model 16B. When I got it, it was so dirty I could barely tell that it was even a Tandy! The case looks *very* similar to the Model 2. The keyboard connector on both machines looks like a standard PC keyboard connector. Since they're the same, I can share the keyboard between the machines (doubt I'll need both at the same time) 8^) > Hmm? No Model 16 ever contained a hard drive -- do you mean the board > to attach an external? The only machine in that series that ever had > an internal HD was the Tandy 6000HD. The original 16 could not have > that upgrade as could the 12/16b/6000 due to lack of room. The plastic cover plate on the front of the machine says "15 MEG DISK SYSTEM" and there is a controller card (MFM?) in the cage. The ribbon cables for the drive are fairly short and were routed internally. There was also a "Sector Error Map" attached to the top of the drive bays. There seems to be plenty of room and it sure looks like a drive was mounted internally? Are there any special requirements for the 16B hard drive? > Ward Griffiths > "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then > you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Apr 7 06:39:08 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: PDP8 Paper Tape Message-ID: <19990407113908.27381.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> --- Marvin wrote: > > I was rummaging around the back bedroom last night and found (again) three > boxes of paper tapes labeled "262.1-S PDP-8 Printer Driver Source", > "265.1-OB PDP-8 printer Diagnostic Object 1 of 3", and the other 2 boxes. I > have no idea what printer this might be used with. It came with the PDP-8L I > acquired many years ago. These tapes are rolled black tape. Anyone know what > these might be? Do you have any way of reading the tapes in? One way to tell is by reading the comments. Another way is by checking the IOT's used for the printer I/O. I myself cannot tell what printer those work with from the numeric portion of the title, but I can say that just for parallel printers, OMNIBUS -8's supported the LA180, the LQP01 and LQP02. Common serial printers were the older members of the DECWriter line (e.g., LA-36, probably not the LA-120). If that source is for an older, non-OMNIBUS model, I wouldn't have a clue as to what model of printer it would want to talk to. I think only the LA-36 was available in current-loop configuration (excepting, of course, real TTY's). Do you have a way of reading in the tape? -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 7 07:26:05 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: PDP8 Paper Tape In-Reply-To: <19990407113908.27381.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: > > boxes of paper tapes labeled "262.1-S PDP-8 Printer Driver Source", > > "265.1-OB PDP-8 printer Diagnostic Object 1 of 3", and the other 2 boxes. I > > have no idea what printer this might be used with. It came with the PDP-8L I > > I myself cannot tell what printer those work with from the numeric portion of > the title, but I can say that just for parallel printers, OMNIBUS -8's > supported > the LA180, the LQP01 and LQP02. Common serial printers were the older members You forget LE8, LP14, lp25 series of line printers. PDP-8s were used with large and faster line printers of the day. Also the LA30 DECwriter was a parallel interface at 30cps. THey were far from limited to ASR33s (LT33). Allison From at258 at osfn.org Wed Apr 7 08:37:08 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s In-Reply-To: <370B3A74.8A7124FD@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: If I remember right, that 15 meg disk was REALLY large, although I may be thinking of an earlier version. Measurements would be about 9" thick by 25-30 deep, nearly as broad. I don't think that'd fit in the case without a lot of coaxing. I know we have a couple of those old drives squirrelled away, and they aren't small. Neither is the one for the 6000 On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Steve Robertson wrote: > Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > > > The Model 2 keyboard would work fine on a Model 16 if the Model 16 has > > the same case shape as the 2 -- or is it a 16b? which needs a gender > > change as a minimum. > > Now that I can read it, he label on the front on the machine says it's a > Model 16B. When I got it, it was so dirty I could barely tell that it > was even a Tandy! The case looks *very* similar to the Model 2. The > keyboard connector on both machines looks like a standard PC keyboard > connector. Since they're the same, I can share the keyboard between the > machines (doubt I'll need both at the same time) 8^) > > > Hmm? No Model 16 ever contained a hard drive -- do you mean the board > > to attach an external? The only machine in that series that ever had > > an internal HD was the Tandy 6000HD. The original 16 could not have > > that upgrade as could the 12/16b/6000 due to lack of room. > > The plastic cover plate on the front of the machine says "15 MEG DISK > SYSTEM" and there is a controller card (MFM?) in the cage. The ribbon > cables for the drive are fairly short and were routed internally. There > was also a "Sector Error Map" attached to the top of the drive bays. > There seems to be plenty of room and it sure looks like a drive was > mounted internally? > > Are there any special requirements for the 16B hard drive? > > > > Ward Griffiths > > "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then > > you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 7 08:53:27 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s In-Reply-To: <199904070508.BAA09003@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > On 6 Apr 99 at 22:41, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > > On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > I recently made a CP/M and TRSDOS-II boot disk for another list member and > > > I'd be happy to do the same for both you and Mike. Of course, you'll > > > probably have to wait as long as Aaron did (about 6 weeks). > > Remember that TRSDOS-II won't work on a Model 2 without an arcnet or > > hard disk card. A stock Mod 2 uses TRSDOS 2.0a. (or 2.0 or 1.2, let's > > not discuss 1.2 please). > > > In my cache of disks for my model 2 which has been abandoned for about 6 mo > I seem to remember a TRSDOS v 4.x or am I dreaming ? That's TRSDOS-II. The last version IIRC was 4.2 with patches. It provided support for double-sided media in the 12/16/6000 and for hard disks throughout the Model 2 line. It required an additional 16k of RAM that existed on Arcnet and HD adapter cards. Unlike TRSDOS 2.0, it did not support duplicating a diskette with only one floppy drive. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 7 09:31:01 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > If I remember right, that 15 meg disk was REALLY large, although I may be > thinking of an earlier version. Measurements would be about 9" thick by > 25-30 deep, nearly as broad. I don't think that'd fit in the case without > a lot of coaxing. I know we have a couple of those old drives > squirrelled away, and they aren't small. Neither is the one for the 6000 You mistake the container for the contents. The external drive unit was in a larger box than necessary even when it first came out. The box contained the power supply, the controller board for all four drives (the card in the computer was basically a bus adapter to give the 2/12/16/6000 system a Model 3/4 expansion bus) and a full height 5.25" Tandon drive. The drive in the 6000HD (available as an upgrade for the 12 and later systems) was a half-height unit and allowed only one secondary drive while the external primaries allowed three. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Apr 7 05:35:59 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies Message-ID: <199904071434.KAA13260@smtp.interlog.com> I made a curbside rescue of a dual ext. fdd. Two FH 5 1/4 floppies mounted vertically. ZenithDS Heathkit H77 with ribbon cable connector. Looks more like an 8" mechanism than your standard floppies. I'm assuming these were for a Z-100 guaged by the ZDS H-K label timeframe . Any info on them ? Judging by the mechanism that I can see , like Rainbow drives but not laterly opposed , they're SS. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 7 10:06:14 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s In-Reply-To: <370B3A74.8A7124FD@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Steve Robertson wrote: > Now that I can read it, he label on the front on the machine says it's a > Model 16B. When I got it, it was so dirty I could barely tell that it > was even a Tandy! The case looks *very* similar to the Model 2. The > keyboard connector on both machines looks like a standard PC keyboard > connector. Since they're the same, I can share the keyboard between the > machines (doubt I'll need both at the same time) 8^) Hmm. It's been a long time, but I could have sworn the 16B was in a Model 12 style case like the 6000. Does the computer have a cable to go to the keyboard like the Model 2 does or does it have a DIN connector that a cable attached to the keyboard would plug into? I now recall that a 16B-HD was released, but it was very brief and almost immediately replaced by the 6000HD. > Are there any special requirements for the 16B hard drive? The drive itself can be just about any ST-506/MFM. The limit for the controller is 8 heads by 1024 cylinders. I don't know if any weird mods need to be made for an internal drive or not, for the external drives there was a matter of wiring the write-protect. Best man to ask at this point would be Frank Durda IV over in comp.sys.tandy. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 7 10:15:36 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: PDP8 Paper Tape References: <19990407113908.27381.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <370B7698.5B83F789@rain.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Marvin wrote: > > > > I was rummaging around the back bedroom last night and found (again) three > > boxes of paper tapes labeled "262.1-S PDP-8 Printer Driver Source", > > "265.1-OB PDP-8 printer Diagnostic Object 1 of 3", and the other 2 boxes. I > > have no idea what printer this might be used with. It came with the PDP-8L I > > acquired many years ago. These tapes are rolled black tape. Anyone know what > > these might be? > > Do you have any way of reading the tapes in? One way to tell is by reading > the comments. Another way is by checking the IOT's used for the printer I/O. The only paper tape reader I have right now is an ASR-33 and aside from it being buried :), I can use it to read the tapes in. The PDP-8 was bought new by someone here in Santa Barbara, and then donated to a local school which is where I got it. It came with an ASR-33 (which I sold years ago ), a Tri-Data tape recorder (anyone familiar with them?), and a schematic package. One of these days, it would be fun to fire it up (hopefully not a pun!) From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Apr 7 10:16:26 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Identify this vector Graphics machine In-Reply-To: <370AE50F.9723122C@rain.org> Message-ID: If this is a Vector 4 is there any collector interest without the keyboard. I left it at the thrift shop so it is still up for grabs. Looks to be pretty heavy so shipping would be expensive. It is located at a Goodwill store located in Tigard Oregon in case anybody local is interested. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > George Rachor wrote: > > > > I stumbled upon a all in one box this evening at a Thrift store. It was > > missing a keyboard which may hook up on the front phone line like > > connector marked "Control". > > > > Below the Video was a 5.25 Hard drive in the left bay and a full size 5.25 > > inch floppy in the right bay. > > > > On the back of the machine were two serial ports, two parallel ports and a > > single 9 pin port marked "RGB". > > > > The back of the box had a "Vector Graphics" label. The front had a label > > that read: > > VZX > > > > Again no keyboard or software. Any ideas what this creature is? > > This sounds like the Vector 4. I only have one and it is the only one I have > seen so I don't know how common they are/were. > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 7 10:20:57 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: NY/CA connection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990407102057.011dfc80@vpwisfirewall> At 06:23 AM 4/7/99 -0400, you wrote: >Hi, ClassicCmp. I know this is poor etiquette, but I'm not subscribed, so >please send any responses directly to me. >I'm interested in nabbing a couple of way obscure machines sitting in NY. Oh, sure, come back when you need some help! Careful, by alerting the list members to the presence of these computers, you may upset the bidding process. :-) I do wish we had that latitude-longitude-based database of willing computer rescue helpers. Also, we'd benefit from collective wisdom in scheduling the slow-boat trucking services for cross-country deliveries like this. There are dozens of alternatives to UPS that specialize in big-heavy-slow. - John From dogas at leading.net Wed Apr 7 11:00:14 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s Message-ID: <01be810f$b96a5a40$dcc962cf@devlaptop> Having had a small chance to digest the new trs pillsI find that I newly have: - a 6000hd 15meg 1d that I'm currently running xenix 3.01.00 on -a 16 1d that is missing some internal cables, this one has an odd model 16 vanity plate and matching keyboard. -a 6000hd 15meg 1d -a 16 2d with a bad floppy and intermittant keyboard -a 6000 15meg 1d -a 6000 15meg 1d -a 16b 2d with a bad monitor -a 16b 2d - keyboards for 6000 (and a white key one) 12, 16, and 16b - 8meg hd system (big black) - 20meg hd sytem (small white) - 3 extra 8" floppies - a bad 15meg winchester replacement - assundry cabling And digging into the closet (past all the skeletons) I pulled the following software out of stasis - xenix basic interpreter - model II cobol dev system - versaledger - scripsit - multiplan -profile plus - ar/ap/payroll - trs-dos - videotex Plus - trs-dos II - trs-dos 4.0 - model 16 system disk - xenix CTAR - profile 16 - xenix 3.02.00 - xenix profile upgrade - xenix multiuser upgrade - profile 16 upgrade - xenix 1.3.xx for model 16 Will the trsdos stuff above work under tsh? Now to dust off the drive heads and install some stuff. If anyone has any complimentary warez or needs copies yada yada yada. ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Apr 7 07:25:00 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:53 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199904071624.MAA09904@smtp.interlog.com> On 6 Apr 99 at 22:44, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > > > On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > > I recently made a CP/M and TRSDOS-II boot disk for another list member and > > > I'd be happy to do the same for both you and Mike. Of course, you'll > > > probably have to wait as long as Aaron did (about 6 weeks). > > Remember that TRSDOS-II won't work on a Model 2 without an arcnet or > > hard disk card. A stock Mod 2 uses TRSDOS 2.0a. (or 2.0 or 1.2, let's > > not discuss 1.2 please). > > That's odd. Why not? I don't know that the Model 2 I have has either. > All I know is that I put the system disks I have in the drive and they > come up. > > The CP/M version btw is Pickles & Trout v2.2. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ That seems to have been the preferred CP/M by TRS users from what I was able to find. There was a company in Texas that had a web-site supporting it untill a couple of years ago. Can't remember their name. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From drbilling at ucdavis.edu Wed Apr 7 11:25:56 1999 From: drbilling at ucdavis.edu (Dean Billing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Flopyy disk. Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990407092556.00857c00@peseta.ucdavis.edu> >On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > computers, the service representative came to the site, opened a panel >> > on the operator console, and changed the 5 1/4" floppy disk. By doing >> >> I think I read somewhere that the 8" floppy was originally designed for >> this purpose. > >IBM invented the floppy disk to distribute microcode updates. > >Sellam I believe that I saw the first floppy disk drive invented at IBM San Jose in late 1969. It was designed to load microcode into the new selector channels being designed for the IBM S-370. Unlike the CPU's and selector channels of the S-360 that had a variety of ROM designs, the System 370 and the stand alone selector channels had writable control stores for microcode. The device was very primitive since it was essentially a read only device when installed in the channel. It was designed by Al Shugart or a team under his direction. I know he was credited with it within IBM. I have always hoped somebody would do an oral history with him of his IBM days and the reasons that he left to start his own company. Dean From dogas at leading.net Wed Apr 7 11:15:54 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s Message-ID: <01be8111$e9ecf400$dcc962cf@devlaptop> hmm.. also in looking through the xenix docs I see mentioned, the DT-1. I've got a PT-210 and pre-coco vidtex and have been looking for a DT-100 but dont remember the DT-1. What's it like? - Mike: dogas@leading.net From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Apr 7 07:24:59 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s In-Reply-To: References: <370B3A74.8A7124FD@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <199904071624.MAA10140@smtp.interlog.com> On 7 Apr 99 at 9:37, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > If I remember right, that 15 meg disk was REALLY large, although I may be > thinking of an earlier version. Measurements would be about 9" thick by > 25-30 deep, nearly as broad. I don't think that'd fit in the case without > a lot of coaxing. I know we have a couple of those old drives > squirrelled away, and they aren't small. Neither is the one for the 6000 > On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Steve Robertson wrote: > Thats the same size as the 3 8M ones I got with my M2. Perhaps there was later model that took advantage of the advancing technology. > > Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > > > > > Hmm? No Model 16 ever contained a hard drive -- do you mean the board > > > to attach an external? The only machine in that series that ever had > > > an internal HD was the Tandy 6000HD. The original 16 could not have > > > that upgrade as could the 12/16b/6000 due to lack of room. > > > > The plastic cover plate on the front of the machine says "15 MEG DISK > > SYSTEM" and there is a controller card (MFM?) in the cage. The ribbon > > cables for the drive are fairly short and were routed internally. There > > was also a "Sector Error Map" attached to the top of the drive bays. > > There seems to be plenty of room and it sure looks like a drive was > > mounted internally? > > > > Are there any special requirements for the 16B hard drive? > > > > > > > Ward Griffiths > > > "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then > > > you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > > > lwalker@interlog.com Collectors info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 7 11:35:00 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s In-Reply-To: <01be810f$b96a5a40$dcc962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Mike wrote: > Will the trsdos stuff above work under tsh? If by tsh you mean the TRSDOS-like command shell, the answer is no. The TRSDOS software is Z-80 binaries, and there is no real access to the Z-80 under Xenix while it's handling I/O for the MC68000. You should instead ignore the 68k on one of your machines and format the HD under TRSDOS-II. Make sure you've got the TRSDOS-II version of Scripsit -- the Model 2 Scripsit 2.0 will _not_ work. This is not a maybe. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Apr 7 11:17:03 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Is this normal? ODT Question References: <990405102310.212001f0@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <370B84FE.EC6ED809@idirect.com> >CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > Also the boot area is 177300 ? so it > >is in the upper 4K of the 64KB address space, is it legal to have memory > >"above" the I/O page? > Absolutely. In fact, some configurations had only a 2Kbyte I/O page > to allow a little bit of extra memory, and this still works (albeit not > officially supported) under RT-11 (it was tested before the 5.7 > release.) Jerome Fine replies: I suspect that having memory above 160000 is very special and that such must be allowed for in a different manner from normal RAM. In respect of a 2Kbyte I/O page, I hope you (and I am sure you probably are - just a slip of the fingers) are referring to 8192 Bytes as being the normal I/O page (160000 -> 177777) in a 64 KByte address space. The 2 KWord or 4096 Byte I/O page (170000 -> 177777) is allowed ONLY for older CPUs like the LSI-11/03 and the PDP-11/23 WHEN the MMU unit is turned OFF. Some of the older memory boards had a jumper or a wire wrap setting just for this situation. So you could run either RT11SJ or RT11FB and get and extra 4 KBytes or 2 KWords for the user program. In almost all cases, RT11SJ was used since that monitor is smaller than RT11FB and therefore allows extra space. NOTE that for the LSI-11/03 and a PDP-11/23 (without an MMU chip which had to run RT11SJ), this was the only solution to obtain the most memory for the background job. In addition, if the background job was very unorthodox and did things like ISRs (Interrupt Service Routines - if you don't know what they are don't bother) at non-RT11XM compatible addresses (I ran across this situation last year with a program that could not run under RT11XM - remember that 4 KByte I/O page Megan), then a small I/O page under RT11SJ would indeed be all that could be done. HOWEVER, this solution was actually self-defeating in most cases. Of course it required a system with an MMU unit in the case of an 11/23 AND probably at least 128 KBytes of memory. AND for the J11 chip systems (11/73 etc.), running under RT11XM actually allows far more memory than even RT11SJ. Note also that no J11 chips allow a 4 KByte I/O page (as far as I could determine and I think that Megan found the same result) in any case! Only an 8192 Byte I/O page is allowed. For anyone who wants a hint, under RT11XM (and now even more so under RT11ZM when DATA SPACE is allowed in addition to INSTRUCTION SPACE - also allowed with recent versions of TSX-PLUS) it is possible to have ISRs in the first 8192 bytes of memory and request extended memory for the address space where the resident monitor is located in Kernel Space and even use User Space addresses for where the I/O page addresses are located if the I/O page is not required. For example, I know of a version of BINCOM which initially does a LOAD into only the first 8192 bytes of memory (000000 -> 017776). If RT11FB is running, the rest of the program is loaded in the normal manner. If RT11XM is running, the address space 020000 -> 177777) is mapped into extended memory (if sufficient is available) providing a full 64 KBytes to run the program and provide buffers for directories and data. THEN, to put the icing on the cake, TWO more areas of memory are requested (to use double buffering from 040000 to 177777). Fortunately, the code to use the buffers lies below 040000 and when the next pair of files needs to be determined and opened, the area above 040000 with the original program can be activated and used. Altogether, 152 KBytes just in extended memory are used compared to a maximum of about 48 KBytes that are available to the background program under RT11SJ. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Apr 7 11:34:23 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: PDP8 Paper Tape Message-ID: <19990407163423.23664.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > boxes of paper tapes labeled "262.1-S PDP-8 Printer Driver Source", > > > "265.1-OB PDP-8 printer Diagnostic Object 1 of 3", and the other 2 boxes. --- After _I_ wrote: > > I myself cannot tell what printer those work with from the numeric portion > > of the title, but I can say that just for parallel printers, OMNIBUS -8's > > supported > > the LA180, the LQP01 and LQP02. Common serial printers... > You forget LE8, LP14, lp25 series of line printers. I didn't forget them... I never knew about the LE8 nor the LP14, and I didn't know that there was ever an interface for the LP25 for any model of 8. It's all news to me. > PDP-8s were used with large and faster line printers of the day. I have only ever seen PDP-8's used with what would be termed "personal" class printers. > Also the LA30 DECwriter was a parallel interface at 30cps. I have heard of the LA30. I didn't know it was parallel. Never seen one. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 7 11:53:04 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s In-Reply-To: <01be8111$e9ecf400$dcc962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Mike wrote: > hmm.. also in looking through the xenix docs I see mentioned, the DT-1. > I've got a PT-210 and pre-coco vidtex and have been looking for a DT-100 but > dont remember the DT-1. What's it like? The DT-100 = a relabeled Wyse 75. The PT-210 was a sort of Silent 700 clone thermal hardcopy terminal with acoustic modem. The Vidtex terminal was basically a CoCo 1 with Vidtex ROM instead of BASIC and a 300 bps modem built in. The DT-1 was basically a terminal built into a diskless Model III case painted white instead of black. I forget which all terminals it emulated besides Adds 25, they were all terminals featuring the magic cookie reverse video standout glitch. Good bookkeeping terminals but they sucked for Scripsit-16. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Apr 7 11:43:10 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: NY/CA connection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Hi, ClassicCmp. I know this is poor etiquette, but I'm not subscribed, so >please send any responses directly to me. > >I'm interested in nabbing a couple of way obscure machines sitting in NY. >They might not be available after a week elapses, and they're too big to >ship cheaply (the machines themselves are under 100lbs each, but the docs >add another 200lbs or so, and the machines are about as wide as a desk). > >So, was anybody planning on a nice drive from NY to CA in a big station >wagon any time soon? > >Short of that, would a NY collector be willing to nab this stuff on my >behalf and store it until I can find a good way of getting it here? > >Even shorter of that, any suggestions on the cheapest way to ship >300-400lbs of unwieldy stuff cross-country? Just give us all the details and maybe one of the greedy eBums will buy it and put it up for auction. Then some idiot can pay an inflated price for it, keep it a few years then sell it cheap someplace closer to you. From at258 at osfn.org Wed Apr 7 12:04:27 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I know the later drives seemed much more compact, about the size of a floppy drive. Those early ones were enormous though. I've never opened one up though, so I wasn't sure what it contained. I suspected some sort of 8 inch drive. On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > > If I remember right, that 15 meg disk was REALLY large, although I may be > > thinking of an earlier version. Measurements would be about 9" thick by > > 25-30 deep, nearly as broad. I don't think that'd fit in the case without > > a lot of coaxing. I know we have a couple of those old drives > > squirrelled away, and they aren't small. Neither is the one for the 6000 > > You mistake the container for the contents. The external drive unit > was in a larger box than necessary even when it first came out. The > box contained the power supply, the controller board for all four > drives (the card in the computer was basically a bus adapter to give > the 2/12/16/6000 system a Model 3/4 expansion bus) and a full height > 5.25" Tandon drive. The drive in the 6000HD (available as an > upgrade for the 12 and later systems) was a half-height unit and > allowed only one secondary drive while the external primaries > allowed three. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then > you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 7 14:12:09 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Two 4869 floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: <01be809a$98add2c0$c4c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990407141209.19e706c4@intellistar.net> Mike, FWIW I see lots of 4869s around here. Most are asking $10 but can't get that much. I paid $2 for mine. I've been told that the ones with the * on them are 1.2 Mb and the others are 360K. Joe At 10:29 PM 4/6/99 -0700, you wrote: >In todays wanderings I found two seemingly very nice condition 4869 >external floppy drives, they were not cheap, but then I don't know what >cheap for them would be. If anybody is interested email me as I will return >to that haunt on Thursday. > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 7 13:29:19 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Two 4869 floppy drives In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990407141209.19e706c4@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > FWIW I see lots of 4869s around here. Most are asking $10 but can't get > that much. I paid $2 for mine. I've been told that the ones with the * on > them are 1.2 Mb and the others are 360K. ANY REASONABLE, RATIONAL, RESPONSIBLE, OR SENSIBLE company would put the asterisk on the new type of drive, to differentiate it from the old type, since it isn't possible to change the old ones that are out there, but relatively easy to institute a marking convention for the new ones. BUT THIS IS IBM! Therefore, the * drives are the 360K! -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 7 13:31:10 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Flopyy disk. In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990407092556.00857c00@peseta.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Dean Billing wrote: > The device was very primitive since it was essentially a read only device > when installed in the channel. It was designed by Al Shugart or a team > under his direction. I know he was credited with it within IBM. I have > always hoped somebody would do an oral history with him of his IBM days and > the reasons that he left to start his own company. I tried to get him to speak at VCF 2.0 after he got axed by Conner (was it Conner?) but I could never get ahold of him. I think he would have a good story to tell so I may try again this year. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Apr 7 13:28:36 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies Message-ID: <19990407.132842.216.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> These were in common use on Z89's and Z-90's. Heathkit used drives made by Tandon and Siemens. The Siemens drives were kinda unique: It used a disk with a spiral groove for the head positioner. The cabinets are among the best floppy enclosures ever made IMHO (although they can be a bitch to put back together). I have several of them myself. The (linear) power supplies in 'em are fairly beefy. Jeff On Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:35:59 +0000 "Lawrence Walker" writes: > I made a curbside rescue of a dual ext. fdd. Two FH 5 1/4 floppies >mounted >vertically. ZenithDS Heathkit H77 with ribbon cable connector. Looks >more like >an 8" mechanism than your standard floppies. I'm assuming these were >for a >Z-100 guaged by the ZDS H-K label timeframe . Any info on them ? > Judging by the mechanism that I can see , like Rainbow drives but not > >laterly opposed , they're SS. > >ciao larry >lwalker@interlog.com > >Collectors info http://members.xoom.com/T3C ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Apr 7 13:52:43 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Two 4869 floppy drives References: <01be809a$98add2c0$c4c962cf@devlaptop> <3.0.1.16.19990407141209.19e706c4@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <370BA97A.67E25F0D@bigfoot.com> I have two here now that are asterisked, and are 360k. It depends on the drive installed in the case as the case is esentially a power supply and cable in an external box with a floppy drive installed. Someone *could* use one on a non-PS/2 system if they wanted to make the wiring right. The last five I've old on eBay started at $7.99 if complete and working and were snagged up at $17 - 20 each by end of auction. There have been 4869's without drives that have gone for as much as $12 on the auctions. I even have one with the adapter, card and cable for a PS/2 80, might even fit the 65 and 60, not sure. The hard things to locate are cdroms and 1.2mb internal floppies for the 8585/9585 and 8595/9595 servers. I have an IBM 1.2mb with motorized eject in my 9595-OPT and it's like gold to many people. I just think it's "kewl"..... Joe wrote: > Mike, > > FWIW I see lots of 4869s around here. Most are asking $10 but can't get > that much. I paid $2 for mine. I've been told that the ones with the * on > them are 1.2 Mb and the others are 360K. > > Joe > > At 10:29 PM 4/6/99 -0700, you wrote: > >In todays wanderings I found two seemingly very nice condition 4869 > >external floppy drives, they were not cheap, but then I don't know what > >cheap for them would be. If anybody is interested email me as I will return > >to that haunt on Thursday. > > > > > > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Apr 7 14:22:56 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies In-Reply-To: <19990407.132842.216.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > These were in common use on Z89's and Z-90's. Heathkit used drives made > by > Tandon and Siemens. The Siemens drives were kinda unique: It used a > disk with a spiral groove for the head positioner. Hmmm... hardly that unique it would seem... The Shugart SA-400 series drives used that same positioning systems (first?). -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Apr 7 14:33:27 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: OT: Classic Floppy Story In-Reply-To: <19990407.132842.216.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990407123153.03cb7930@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Early clones also used floppies from Daewoo Automated Manufacturying (DAM). These floppys had DAM in raised relief on the plate across the bottom. When ever they broke (which was frequently) is was "another DAM floppy failure." From donm at cts.com Wed Apr 7 14:57:19 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s In-Reply-To: <199904071624.MAA09904@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > On 6 Apr 99 at 22:44, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > > > > I recently made a CP/M and TRSDOS-II boot disk for another list member and > > > > I'd be happy to do the same for both you and Mike. Of course, you'll > > > > probably have to wait as long as Aaron did (about 6 weeks). > > > Remember that TRSDOS-II won't work on a Model 2 without an arcnet or > > > hard disk card. A stock Mod 2 uses TRSDOS 2.0a. (or 2.0 or 1.2, let's > > > not discuss 1.2 please). > > > > That's odd. Why not? I don't know that the Model 2 I have has either. > > All I know is that I put the system disks I have in the drive and they > > come up. > > > > The CP/M version btw is Pickles & Trout v2.2. > > > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > That seems to have been the preferred CP/M by TRS users from what I was able > to find. There was a company in Texas that had a web-site supporting it untill > a couple of years ago. Can't remember their name. That would be: TriSoft (James Knox) 1825 East 38 1/2 Austin, TX 78722 (512) 472-0744 (800) 531-5170 FAX (512) 473-2122 I think they are still around. - don > ciao larry > lwalker@interlog.com > > Collectors info http://members.xoom.com/T3C > From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Apr 7 15:00:11 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Dysania (ot) (was: Timonium Hamfest) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990407090832.4d37e9c8@ricochet.net> At 01:17 PM 4/7/99 +0930, you wrote: >> Dysania: (n) an inability to function early in the morning. > >That makes two of us. Had it long as I can remember. Didn't know there >was a name for it. You learn something every day.... See: http://www.cfids.org/youth/articles/medical/sleep.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7044/ihlstart.htm http://alpha2.bmc.uu.se/~gerard/pxfun/X0009_Useful_idiom.rtf.html http://members.aol.com/logoanon/accidence.htm http://www.serve.com/hecht/words/rare.htm (I also have lethonomia.) http://www.afn.org/~afn01551/ewysk.htm --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 7 14:25:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Corvus Concept (was Re: Y2K stuff) In-Reply-To: <199904070833.BAA22690@saul9.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Apr 7, 99 01:33:47 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2414 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990407/f82cd6cb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 7 14:33:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: PDP8 Paper Tape In-Reply-To: <19990407113908.27381.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 7, 99 04:39:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1074 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990407/18334929/attachment.ksh From kees.stravers at iae.nl Wed Apr 7 16:21:36 1999 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: DEC Visual Field Guide Message-ID: <19990407212136.1162B20F1C@iaehv.iae.nl> There exists a well known file, the Field Guide, which lists all PDP and VAX DEC boards by number and description. I have created a web page on VAXarchive, my site with information on old DEC VAX hardware and its operating systems, which is to be the visual version of this list. It shows pictures of boards, and their number and function. This makes it easy to identify boards with unreadable or missing module numbers. There are now 24 pictures on this page, which is of course just a tiny part of all boards that exist. I am hoping that the readers of this list are able to help me get more pictures. If you own boards that are not on this page, I would appreciate it very much if you could send me an image of them. If it is a dual or quad width board, you do not need a digital camera to make this picture, you can just lay it face down on a flat bed scanner. (This is how all the pictures on the page were made.) Please mail any pictures to pb0aia at iae.nl, or let me know on which ftp or www site they are. Thanks in advance! The URL of the page is: The boards already on the page are: Dual width: M7270, M7504, M7546, M7555, M7607, M7954, M8043, M8044, M8047, M8659, M9047. Quad width: M3104, M7164, M7165, M7168, M7169, M7196, M7454, M7602, M7606, M7608, M7609, M7624, M8639. Non-DEC: QD21. Regards, Kees. -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ I'm Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - Visit VAXarchive! http://www.vaxarchive.org/ (primary) http://www.sevensages.org/vax/ (mirror) http://www.coyote.org/mirrors/vaxarchive/ (mirror) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 7 15:48:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Apr 7, 99 12:22:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 537 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990407/3203f8fe/attachment.ksh From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Apr 7 17:22:08 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Two 4869 floppy drives In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990407141209.19e706c4@intellistar.net> References: <01be809a$98add2c0$c4c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: This is a new place for me, so I am just learning the ropes on prices, but I thought it was too much for an old drive. The different price attitude on different days makes me nuts, but some sources need cultivating. ;) > FWIW I see lots of 4869s around here. Most are asking $10 but can't get >that much. I paid $2 for mine. I've been told that the ones with the * on >them are 1.2 Mb and the others are 360K. > > Joe > >At 10:29 PM 4/6/99 -0700, you wrote: >>In todays wanderings I found two seemingly very nice condition 4869 >>external floppy drives, they were not cheap, but then I don't know what >>cheap for them would be. If anybody is interested email me as I will return >>to that haunt on Thursday. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 7 17:44:24 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies Message-ID: <001201be8148$442ed1a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> I don't believe those were the earliest of the 5-1/4" types. The early SA-400's I remember used a lead screw just like the 8" drives, but that was too costly for the competition that followed. When Apple started buying "partial" drive mechanisms in order to implement their more software-driven approach, with the idea of saving a few bucks . . . multiplied by a milion or two drives . . . other manufacturers including SIEMENS and BASF, among others, tried a two-phase stepper on a helically-tracked drive wheel as opposed to the stepper driving a lead screw. Most makers later went to a band-actuator system using a small stepper. Since the business of designing floppy and hard disk controllers was my long suit back then, I had several of nearly every type of FDD and HDD lying around the shop, and there were LOTS. By the time IBM got into the game, the positioning mechanism contest was pretty well settled. Apple drives used a form of GCR on their drives, the heads of which were positioned with a software timed DC motor, while nearly everyone else used FM or MFM on drives which used steppers driving band actuators. Once the volume was up, the cost wasn't that much greater, while the precision and accuracy were quite a bit greater. I don't even remember what the nature of the physical linkage between the motor an the head positoner was, since I stayed away from them. I still have an Apple drive somewhere. I suppose I could look . . . Of course, Apple's orientation toward YOUR data was that nobody really cared if you had to punt and hit the reset button just because the FDD wouldn't read the floppy it wrote just a few minutes before . . . After all, if you were serious, you didn't use an Apple. If you were serious it's for sure you had some 8" drives for the data you wanted to keep. Dick -----Original Message----- From: James Willing To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 1:57 PM Subject: Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies >On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > >> These were in common use on Z89's and Z-90's. Heathkit used drives made >> by >> Tandon and Siemens. The Siemens drives were kinda unique: It used a >> disk with a spiral groove for the head positioner. > >Hmmm... hardly that unique it would seem... The Shugart SA-400 series >drives used that same positioning systems (first?). > >-jim >--- >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 7 18:32:26 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: SA-400's (was: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies In-Reply-To: <001201be8148$442ed1a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I don't believe those were the earliest of the 5-1/4" types. The early > SA-400's I remember used a lead screw just like the 8" drives, but that was > too costly for the competition that followed. When Apple started buying > "partial" drive mechanisms in order to implement their more software-driven > approach, with the idea of saving a few bucks . . . multiplied by a milion > or two drives . . . other manufacturers including SIEMENS and BASF, among > others, tried a two-phase stepper on a helically-tracked drive wheel as > opposed to the stepper driving a lead screw. Most makers later went to a > band-actuator system using a small stepper. Interesting. All of the SA400s that I've seen used the spiral groove on a rotating disc. The only 5.25" drives of that vintage that I have with a helical lead screw were the Micropolis 35 track 48TPI and 77 track 100TPI (NOT 96TPI!!). Was there any sub model designation for the Shugarts to differentiate different positioners? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Apr 7 18:35:41 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies Message-ID: <19990407.184956.292.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Interesting. The Siemens drives were the only ones I've ever seen that use this scheme. But then again, I didn't look closely at the Shugarts in the Burroughs word processors when I took my first real job ("you're not qualified"). These were the only ones I've ever seen. Jeff On Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:22:56 -0700 (PDT) James Willing writes: >On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > >> These were in common use on Z89's and Z-90's. Heathkit used drives >made >> by >> Tandon and Siemens. The Siemens drives were kinda unique: It used a > >> disk with a spiral groove for the head positioner. > >Hmmm... hardly that unique it would seem... The Shugart SA-400 >series >drives used that same positioning systems (first?). > >-jim >--- >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Apr 7 19:04:20 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: SoCal TRW Swap and DEC Open House Message-ID: As promised last month... this month, April, on Saturday the 24th, I will offer hospitality and welcome to anyone wishing to view/play with/make bad jokes about my DEC collection. As many systems as I can get running will be 'on the air' (tho not all at once... zzzzzmp!) for your perusal and happiness. You can paw thru the junk and maybe find something you've wanted for months... we can trade... you can help me clean out the garage... (please....!) I will attend the TRW Swap Meet the morning of the 24th, and all are invited there, and immediately afterwards to the usual post-swap brunch-n-brag (around noon). Then I will travel to My Place, and any folk wishing to join in at any point in the day's activities are most welcome. We can party until Sunday night, if that's what you want. I have to be at work Monday morning, and so do you. Otherwise, it's unstructured. I would prefer to give directions privately, since where you are coming from will modify them. Please e-mail me if you think you might like to participate. It's completely informal, all are welcome, and if no one shows up, I'm gonna play with the machines all by myself. Directions will also be available from me at TRW. I know that several NorCal (Bay Area) listmembers [Sam?] told me they were going to try and make it down... let me know and we'll leave alll the lights on. :) Just a heads-up for all, and I encourage others in other locales to consider hosting a Compu-crawl for your area... it's a lot more interesting to me than Tupperware... Cheerz John From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 7 19:10:09 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies In-Reply-To: <001201be8148$442ed1a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> (edick@idcomm.com) References: <001201be8148$442ed1a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <19990408001009.16472.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > Apple drives > used a form of GCR on their drives, the heads of which were positioned with > a software timed DC motor, while nearly everyone else used FM or MFM on > drives which used steppers driving band actuators. Correct about GCR, but not about head positioning. If you look at the schematics of the Disk ][ controller card and that of the drive, both of which were in the DOS reference manuals up through the early 3.3 manuals (before the Apple //e shipped), you will see that the controller uses four outputs of a 74LS259 (or 9334) 8-bit addressable latch to control the four phases of the head positioning stepper motor. IIRC, in the drive the four TTL-level phase signals from the controller are inputs to a ULN2003 which actually drives the motor phases. The stepper motor has an additional stable states halfway between any pair of adjacent tracks. However, due to the head width, it was not possible to get twice the number of usable data tracks. But you could use non-standard track positions as long as they were at least two steps apart. One of the earliest copy protection schemes was to use track 0, 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, etc. Of course, the copy programs quickly started supporting half-track positioning. The screwy part of Apple's head positioning system is the absence of a track 0 sensor. The technique to home the positioner was to step away from track 0 a few steps (call it N), then step toward track 0 by more than 68+N steps (the number 96 comes to mind but I could be mistaken). This results in the famous "Disk ][ mating call" sound. In fact, you can actually get quarter-track positioning, but you have to keep one (two?) of the stepper coils driven to hold the positioner in place. This can be viewed as a very crude form of microstepping. Of course, you can potentially also write data *during* the postitioner motion. However, this was seldom done even for copy protection, because the repeatability was poor even on the same drive, and very poor between drives. Because the stepper motor was under software control, the RWTS subroutines (Read/Write Track & Sector, the low-level disk driver) actually used a ramped acceleration/deacceleration profile, for faster seek times than in typical systems which used a fixed track-to-track step time. Eric From cbajpai at mediaone.net Wed Apr 7 19:20:08 1999 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Apple GCR In-Reply-To: <19990408001009.16472.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <000601be8155$8f219aa0$0100a8c0@chandrab.ne.mediaone.net> Can someone explain how the Apple II GCR worked? I tried deciphering this several years ago and I could figure it out (the only references I found were very vague). I believe the Apple Mac using the same GCR technique (at least on the 400K/800K drives). I'm interested in knowing how the data encoding scheme worked. Thanks, Chandra From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 7 18:44:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies In-Reply-To: <001201be8148$442ed1a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 7, 99 04:44:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1150 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990408/41ed585b/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Apr 7 20:04:11 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Apple GCR Message-ID: <990407210411.202000ef@trailing-edge.com> >Can someone explain how the Apple II GCR worked? I tried deciphering this >several years ago and I could figure it out (the only references I found >were very vague). There's one reference which is extremely non-vague: _Beneath Apple DOS_, by Don Worth and Peter Lechner. In it you'll find wonderful illustrations featuring Sir Isaac Newton and leading you through the wonderfully intertwined world of the Disk ][ state machine, 6502 machine code, and modulation formats. This book is still available new (see my past posts to comp.sys.apple2 for details on how to buy it.) If you're too cheap to buy the book (again, buy the book! It's worth every last cent!), the relevant section of it (minus the cute drawings) is online at http://www.umich.edu/~archive/apple2/misc/hardware/disk.encoding.txt But, again, buy the book! Woz is not my super-hero, but he could do amazing things with a half-dozen TTL chips, that everyone else was doing with a hundred or more... -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Apr 7 16:14:56 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies In-Reply-To: <19990407.132842.216.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <199904080113.VAA14846@smtp.interlog.com> On 7 Apr 99 at 13:28, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > These were in common use on Z89's and Z-90's. Heathkit used drives made > by > Tandon and Siemens. The Siemens drives were kinda unique: It used a > disk with a spiral groove for the head positioner. > > The cabinets are among the best floppy enclosures ever made IMHO > (although > they can be a bitch to put back together). I have several of them > myself. > The (linear) power supplies in 'em are fairly beefy. > > Jeff > OK, enough interest that I "bared it". A heavy sucker, 8 screws for stability and to discourage tinkerers. Meant to last, all metal frame. The drives are Siemens with controllers on each fd (surprise-not) , SERIOUS caps on the PSU and 34 pin edge connectors and cable (no twist ) connecting to the external port. I'm thinking these drives are blessed enough to use to transfer my TRS m2 8 inchers to 5 1/4. How would I begin ? An old-timer who was into TRS m2 told me he had written a program to do that some time ago and urged me to do so before the media failed. Of course like most collectors I'm onwards to the newer find and sometimes don't complete the earlier demands. What could I hook this up to in order to finish with valor. Damn, now I've gone and done it . ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Wed Apr 7 20:17:19 1999 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: FW: FREE! Motorola VME-10 System and Motorola Development Hardware In-Reply-To: <7eg8ca$gmi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <7eg8ca$gmi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Message-ID: <370d036a.405793870@smtp.jps.net> Grab it before it's gone! Good chance for someone in or near Chicago to mess with VME hardware. -=-=- -=-=- On Wed, 07 Apr 1999 18:32:42 GMT, in comp.arch.bus.vmebus you wrote: >>From: mike@gmx.com >>Newsgroups: comp.arch.bus.vmebus >>Subject: Free! Motorola VME-10 System and Motorola Development Hardware >>Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 18:32:42 GMT >>Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion >>Lines: 20 >>Message-ID: <7eg8ca$gmi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.179.170.230 >>X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Apr 07 18:32:42 1999 GMT >>X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/2.0 (compatible; MSIE 3.01; Windows 95) >>X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x17.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 199.179.170.230 >>Path: news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!206.190.128.10!newsfeed.yosemite.net!news1.ltinet.net!news.he.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news-feeds.jump.net!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.arch.bus.vmebus:23 >> >>We have the following equipment which is going to be scrapped in the next >>week or so unless someone in the Chicago area (we are in Northbrook) is >>willing to come and pick it up (sorry, no shipping available). >> >>1 Mot VME10 System w/monitor & keyboard >>1 Mot HDS-400 Hardware Development Station >>1 Mot HDS-400/BSA 68020 Emulator/Analyzer >>1 Mot HDS-300 Control Station >>1 Mot Benchmark 20 >>1 Mot ExorTerm 155 >> >>Plus miscellaneous manuals, cables, etc. This equipment was all working when >>put in storage so years ago, but there are no guarantees... If interested, >>contact me via email. >> >>Mike Magnus >>mike@gmx.com >> >>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- >>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 7 20:09:42 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies Message-ID: <004201be815c$9026f880$0100c0a8@fuj03> Let me qualify this, first of all, with two bits of fact . . . (1) - I didn't care about the APPLE drives because they didn't work with the type of controller I produced, so if I'm wrong, it's caused little damage so far . . . and (2) - I remember lengthy discussions among those members of the Denver Area 6502-Users' Group who were presumably qualified to discuss the intricacies of the internals of APPLE's disk I/O routines at a level I neither knew nor cared about, beyond the superficial details I gleaned from the several and varied sessions discussing that set of details. Now, I attended these weekely and typically 4-hour long meetings for several years, and KNOW the guys who were hashing out the details of the hardware and software in question knew what they were talking about, so I accept that as fact. If it wasn't true, no harm done, but I doubt that was the case. These fellows spent a couple of sessions talking about and demonstrating the screwy means by which certain game vendors in the Apple market were "protecting" their wares by altering the timing of the positioning routine, thereby making it possible to write tracks "off the track" by changing the time delay between a known cylinder position and the point at which the specific track was to be written. This made it impossible for someone using the stock timing of the positioning mechanism to read the diskettes so written. The scheme with the tristate multiplexers came later, I believe, than the one I remember. Apple had several patents, all of which are there to be examined if one wishes. I believe this software-timed positioning scheme was among them. Having said that, I would point out that, given a software scheme sequenced the stepper, it is just as possible that one could have read the diskettes written a half track off by fiddling with the stepping sequence. I doubt, however, that Wayne Wall would have allowed the waste of several sessions of the meetings he so firmly controlled back in those days, if the assumptions presented as fact in those discussions had not been verified. The helical cam I remember didn't have a groove, but rather, a ridge or "fence" in the shape of a helix, which was tracked by a small, spring-loaded, roller bearing. This worked quite well, but, because of inertia and resonances in the system, required an unduly long period to settle. The somewhat more costly band-actuator positioned drives settled in 3ms, typically, a rate which could be advertised and made a drive look "better," although FDC's for the smaller drives had been designed such that the faster step rate couldn't be exploited without fancy external gyrations involving increasing the oscillator rate, since, previously, the mini-floppies, as they were then called, could seldom step faster than 6ms per track. By the time the IBM PC became available, all the drives you saw were capable of the fast step rate, yet IBM's hardware/software wouldn't readily accomodate it. There were freebie patches published by third parties to speed up the step rate, which caused the drives to quiet down considerably. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 6:16 PM Subject: Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies >"Richard Erlacher" wrote: >> Apple drives >> used a form of GCR on their drives, the heads of which were positioned with >> a software timed DC motor, while nearly everyone else used FM or MFM on >> drives which used steppers driving band actuators. > >Correct about GCR, but not about head positioning. If you look at the >schematics of the Disk ][ controller card and that of the drive, both of >which were in the DOS reference manuals up through the early 3.3 manuals >(before the Apple //e shipped), you will see that the controller uses four >outputs of a 74LS259 (or 9334) 8-bit addressable latch to control the four >phases of the head positioning stepper motor. > >IIRC, in the drive the four TTL-level phase signals from the controller >are inputs to a ULN2003 which actually drives the motor phases. > >The stepper motor has an additional stable states halfway between any pair >of adjacent tracks. However, due to the head width, it was not possible to >get twice the number of usable data tracks. But you could use non-standard >track positions as long as they were at least two steps apart. One of the >earliest copy protection schemes was to use track 0, 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, etc. >Of course, the copy programs quickly started supporting half-track >positioning. > >The screwy part of Apple's head positioning system is the absence of a track 0 >sensor. The technique to home the positioner was to step away from track 0 a >few steps (call it N), then step toward track 0 by more than 68+N steps >(the number 96 comes to mind but I could be mistaken). This results in the >famous "Disk ][ mating call" sound. > >In fact, you can actually get quarter-track positioning, but you >have to keep one (two?) of the stepper coils driven to hold the positioner >in place. This can be viewed as a very crude form of microstepping. > >Of course, you can potentially also write data *during* the postitioner >motion. However, this was seldom done even for copy protection, because >the repeatability was poor even on the same drive, and very poor between >drives. > >Because the stepper motor was under software control, the RWTS subroutines >(Read/Write Track & Sector, the low-level disk driver) actually used a >ramped acceleration/deacceleration profile, for faster seek times than >in typical systems which used a fixed track-to-track step time. > >Eric From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 7 20:14:04 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Apple GCR Message-ID: <004901be815d$18934980$0100c0a8@fuj03> This is one of APPLE & wierd Woz's patents. It's in almost every well equipped electrical engineering library. There's also an ANSI standard for GCR as applied by the 9-TRACK TAPE people to get up to 6250 bpi, which will shed some light as well, should you choose to look it up. I used that information to lay a groundwork for my APPLE HDC, which never made it to market. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 7:12 PM Subject: RE: Apple GCR >>Can someone explain how the Apple II GCR worked? I tried deciphering this >>several years ago and I could figure it out (the only references I found >>were very vague). > >There's one reference which is extremely non-vague: _Beneath Apple >DOS_, by Don Worth and Peter Lechner. In it you'll find wonderful >illustrations featuring Sir Isaac Newton and leading you through the >wonderfully intertwined world of the Disk ][ state machine, 6502 >machine code, and modulation formats. This book is still available >new (see my past posts to comp.sys.apple2 for details on how to buy it.) > >If you're too cheap to buy the book (again, buy the book! It's >worth every last cent!), the relevant section of it (minus the >cute drawings) is online at > >http://www.umich.edu/~archive/apple2/misc/hardware/disk.encoding.txt > >But, again, buy the book! Woz is not my super-hero, but he could do >amazing things with a half-dozen TTL chips, that everyone else was >doing with a hundred or more... > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 7 20:16:23 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: SA-400's (was: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies Message-ID: <005001be815d$6afa9020$0100c0a8@fuj03> I don't know about designators, but the first mini-floppy drives I got all had lead screws like the 8" drives. Later on, the SA400- became available, and I don't remember what the was, but they had the helical cam with a 2-phase stepper. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 5:41 PM Subject: SA-400's (was: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies >On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> I don't believe those were the earliest of the 5-1/4" types. The early >> SA-400's I remember used a lead screw just like the 8" drives, but that was >> too costly for the competition that followed. When Apple started buying >> "partial" drive mechanisms in order to implement their more software-driven >> approach, with the idea of saving a few bucks . . . multiplied by a milion >> or two drives . . . other manufacturers including SIEMENS and BASF, among >> others, tried a two-phase stepper on a helically-tracked drive wheel as >> opposed to the stepper driving a lead screw. Most makers later went to a >> band-actuator system using a small stepper. > >Interesting. All of the SA400s that I've seen used the spiral groove on a >rotating disc. The only 5.25" drives of that vintage that I have with a >helical lead screw were the Micropolis 35 track 48TPI and 77 track 100TPI >(NOT 96TPI!!). Was there any sub model designation for the Shugarts to >differentiate different positioners? > >-- >Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com >XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com >2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 >Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Apr 7 16:34:04 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: SoCal TRW Swap and DEC Open House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199904080132.VAA19353@smtp.interlog.com> On 7 Apr 99 at 17:04, John Lawson wrote: > > > As promised last month... this month, April, on Saturday the > 24th, I will offer hospitality and welcome to anyone wishing to > view/play with/make bad jokes about my DEC collection. As many > systems as I can get running will be 'on the air' (tho not all at > once... zzzzzmp!) for your perusal and happiness. You can paw thru > the junk and maybe find something you've wanted for months... we can > trade... you can help me clean out the garage... (please....!) > > I will attend the TRW Swap Meet the morning of the 24th, and all > are invited there, and immediately afterwards to the usual post-swap > brunch-n-brag (around noon). Then I will travel to My Place, and any > folk wishing to join in at any point in the day's activities are most > welcome. > > We can party until Sunday night, if that's what you want. I have > to be at work Monday morning, and so do you. Otherwise, it's > unstructured. > > I would prefer to give directions privately, since where you are > coming from will modify them. Please e-mail me if you think you > might like to participate. It's completely informal, all are > welcome, and if no one shows up, I'm gonna play with the machines > all by myself. Directions will also be available from me at TRW. > > I know that several NorCal (Bay Area) listmembers [Sam?] told me > they were going to try and make it down... let me know and we'll > leave alll the lights on. :) > > Just a heads-up for all, and I encourage others in other locales to > consider hosting a Compu-crawl for your area... it's a lot more > interesting to me than Tupperware... > > > Cheerz > > John > Ah, at last I can not feel inadequate to you silicon valleyers. Kevin Stumph of Computer Collectors book fame has invited Toronto Classic Computer Collectors up to his place to view his Big Iron collection and share a BBQ in June. Take that you spoiled CA chauvinist swine !! ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Apr 7 21:03:30 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Microsoft is about to arrest me! Message-ID: <199904080203.CAA19525@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Well, I just bought something at a used bookstore called "SOFTCARD; VOLUME II" Its a microsoft product, and apparently its illegal to even give it away, let alone to resell it ;) I'm going to ignore that obviously illegal wording ;) Apparenly this is the software and manual for the Microsoft Z80 card for the Apple II series. I have one floppy disk, never used, in 16-sector format for DOS 3.3 or language card. Apparently there should be another manual with chapters 1-3 (unfotunately these are the more interesting chapters), whereas this is chapter 4 on the latest and greatest microsoft basic ever created, which is apparently on the floppy disks ;) plus a little information in the final chapter 5. I dont suppose i can use any of this without the Z80 card? The cp/m wont work without it i'm guessing. Am I correct in guessing all this is good for is Ebay or trades? -Lawrence LeMay PS: I also picked up a nice copy of "the programmers CP/M handbook" which provides extensive coverage of CP/M 2.2, mainly assebly listings. It looks like more than 50% of it is assembly listings. Interesting... PPS: I really should go back and buy that UCSD P-system book, I suppose. From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Apr 7 23:59:20 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: SoCal TRW Swap and DEC Open House Message-ID: <01be817c$8fe79800$119ba6d1@the-general> Anyone know if there's ever anything like this in/near/around Western PA (Eastern Ohio, Northern VA)? -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Walker To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 6:34 PM Subject: Re: SoCal TRW Swap and DEC Open House On 7 Apr 99 at 17:04, John Lawson wrote: > > > As promised last month... this month, April, on Saturday the > 24th, I will offer hospitality and welcome to anyone wishing to > view/play with/make bad jokes about my DEC collection. As many > systems as I can get running will be 'on the air' (tho not all at > once... zzzzzmp!) for your perusal and happiness. You can paw thru > the junk and maybe find something you've wanted for months... we can > trade... you can help me clean out the garage... (please....!) > > I will attend the TRW Swap Meet the morning of the 24th, and all > are invited there, and immediately afterwards to the usual post-swap > brunch-n-brag (around noon). Then I will travel to My Place, and any > folk wishing to join in at any point in the day's activities are most > welcome. > > We can party until Sunday night, if that's what you want. I have > to be at work Monday morning, and so do you. Otherwise, it's > unstructured. > > I would prefer to give directions privately, since where you are > coming from will modify them. Please e-mail me if you think you > might like to participate. It's completely informal, all are > welcome, and if no one shows up, I'm gonna play with the machines > all by myself. Directions will also be available from me at TRW. > > I know that several NorCal (Bay Area) listmembers [Sam?] told me > they were going to try and make it down... let me know and we'll > leave alll the lights on. :) > > Just a heads-up for all, and I encourage others in other locales to > consider hosting a Compu-crawl for your area... it's a lot more > interesting to me than Tupperware... > > > Cheerz > > John From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Apr 7 21:07:45 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: vacuum tube circuits Message-ID: <199904080207.CAA19539@thorin.cs.umn.edu> I saw a hardcover book from 1957 at the used bookstore, that discussed digital computer circuits, and had chapters on vacuum tube logic circuits, corememory circuits, some transistor circuits, etc. If this is something that someone here is dieing to have, perhaps because you're designing a vacuum tube computer circuit, just let me know and i'll try to get it before someone else does ;) -Lawrence LeMay From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 7 21:14:12 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Apple GCR In-Reply-To: <000601be8155$8f219aa0$0100a8c0@chandrab.ne.mediaone.net> (cbajpai@mediaone.net) References: <000601be8155$8f219aa0$0100a8c0@chandrab.ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <19990408021412.17018.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chandra Bajpai writes: > Can someone explain how the Apple II GCR worked? I tried deciphering this > several years ago and I could figure it out (the only references I found > were very vague). I believe the Apple Mac using the same GCR technique (at > least on the 400K/800K drives). I'm interested in knowing how the data > encoding scheme worked. The first GCR scheme on the Apple ][ packed five user data bits into each group of eight cells [*] on the disk, resulting in 13 sectors per track. This encoding is 25% more efficient than FM (single density) recording. Because of the way the disk controller works, the most significant bit of each 8-bit group code (AKA nibble) is required to be a one, and there can't be two consecutive zeros. The newer scheme, introduced with Apple Pascal and Apple DOS 3.3, store 16 sectors per track by packing six user data bits per eight cells. This is achieved by relaxing the constraint on zero bits so that there can be two consecutive zeros, but not three. This required a change to the state machine PROM in order to reliably retime the read data; the old PROM was designated P6, and the new one is P6A. (The boot PROM also changed from P5 to P5A, but is not involved in the disk controller data path.) This encoding is now 50% more efficient than FM (single density). However, MFM (double density) is 100% more efficent than FM, so Apple's encoding scheme is still not as efficient as that used by most other systems. On the other hand, it is quite elegant given the simplicity of the controller. The Apple ][ disk format use FM encoding for the contents of address fields; on some of their later GCR systems, such as the Twiggy disks on the Lisa, they switched over to GCR for address fields as well. For a more detailed explanation, see the book _Beneath Apple DOS_. Eric [*] I'm using the term cell to refer to a position on the disk in which there might be a flux transition, or the absence of a flux transition. Loosely speaking, this is a bit, but it doesn't directly correspond to a bit of user data. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 7 21:17:15 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Apple GCR In-Reply-To: <004901be815d$18934980$0100c0a8@fuj03> (edick@idcomm.com) References: <004901be815d$18934980$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <19990408021715.17041.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > This is one of APPLE & wierd Woz's patents. It's in almost every well > equipped electrical engineering library. The patent describes the general design and operation of the controller, and how the "bit-slip" marks are used for synchronization. But it does not describe the GCR format. Apparently early in development Woz was only using standard FM encoding. AFAIK no version of Apple DOS using FM encoding for the data field was ever released. From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Apr 7 21:15:47 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: SoCal TRW Swap and DEC Open House In-Reply-To: <01be817c$8fe79800$119ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <4.1.19990407220942.00a79da0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:59 PM 4/7/99 -0700, Jason Willgruber said something like: >Anyone know if there's ever anything like this in/near/around Western PA >(Eastern Ohio, Northern VA)? Just the closest so far being over in Kitchener at Kevin Stumph's as per the previous msg here. I'm too disorganized up to now as a result of the recent move to do much myself. Somebody near Cortland, NY and you down in WPA seem to be closest to Jamestown so far anyway. We're sorta like the Pioneers of the 1800's opening up the West as far as the number of collectors that are extant: Lotsa miles between us. Regards, Chris -- -- >-- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Lawrence Walker >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 6:34 PM >Subject: Re: SoCal TRW Swap and DEC Open House > > >On 7 Apr 99 at 17:04, John Lawson wrote: > >> >> >> As promised last month... this month, April, on Saturday the >> 24th, I will offer hospitality and welcome to anyone wishing to -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 7 21:31:25 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <004201be815c$9026f880$0100c0a8@fuj03> (edick@idcomm.com) References: <004201be815c$9026f880$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <19990408023125.17091.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > (2) - I remember lengthy discussions among those members of the Denver Area > 6502-Users' Group who were presumably qualified to discuss the intricacies > of the internals of APPLE's disk I/O routines at a level I neither knew nor > cared about, beyond the superficial details I gleaned from the several and > varied sessions discussing that set of details. Now, I attended these > weekely and typically 4-hour long meetings for several years, and KNOW the > guys who were hashing out the details of the hardware and software in > question knew what they were talking about, so I accept that as fact. Then, as you'll recall, I was one of the people who spoke at those meetings regarding the operation of the Disk ][. Armed with information provided by Wayne Wall, Larry Fish, and Peter Boyle, I delved into the disk system in order to figure out how to defeat various copy protection schemes, including the various half-track and quarter-track positioning methods. Larry was involved in Apparat's efforts to interface standard Teac FD55 series disk drives to the Apple ][ controller. > These fellows > spent a couple of sessions talking about and demonstrating the screwy means > by which certain game vendors in the Apple market were "protecting" their > wares by altering the timing of the positioning routine, thereby making it > possible to write tracks "off the track" by changing the time delay between > a known cylinder position and the point at which the specific track was to > be written. This made it impossible for someone using the stock timing of > the positioning mechanism to read the diskettes so written. No, the postioning that was discussed was the half-track positioning I described earlier. If you look at the Apple RWTS routines (for either 13- or 16-sector diskettes), you'll find that the low level postioning routine actually takes an argument that is two times the track number. The only thing about it that was non-obvious was the timing of the acceleration/decelleration profile used to speed up the seek process. However, this did not affect the final head position. > The scheme with the tristate multiplexers came later, I believe, than the > one I remember. I'm not sure what tristate multiplexers you're referring to. The controller for the Disk ][ never changed in any non-trivial way. Some later cards for use with the Unidisk and Duodisk used a 19-pin D-subminiature connector in place of the pair of 20-pin right angle headers, but the electronics was the same. Starting with the Apple ][c they used the IWM chip, which was a slightly fancier single-chip version of the original controller, but the positioner control method didn't change. > Apple had several patents, all of which are there to be > examined if one wishes. I believe this software-timed positioning scheme > was among them. They had exactly one patent from that era which covers the disk controller. It describes (among other things) how they use a stepper motor for positioning. > I doubt, however, that Wayne Wall would have allowed the waste of > several sessions of the meetings he so firmly controlled back in those days, > if the assumptions presented as fact in those discussions had not been > verified. I'm sure he wouldn't have. Which is why there was not any discussion of using DC motors for head positioning. > The helical cam I remember didn't have a groove, but rather, a ridge or Regarding mechanical details of the Disk ][ drive I'll readily concede that you are likely correct, as I never bothered to study the mechanism, only the electronics and code. Cheers, Eric From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Apr 7 21:32:24 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: Therac-25 (was: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture) Message-ID: <199904080232.WAA02206@lumiere.cs.unc.edu> That's the same URL that I have bookmarked. I very strongly recommend that every programmer read through it, at least once. It is long, but enlightening. Correctness is a lot more than "seems to work". Bill. On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, clintw@colorado.cirrus.com (Clint Wolff) wrote: ] > ::Actually, the THERAC-25 radiation therapy machine is a good example of ] > ::poor hardware AND software design which killed a number of people by ] > ::giving them too high a dose of radiation, either for too long or ] > ::without the proper screen in place. ] > ] > !?! ] > ] > Has this been documented anywhere? Where did you find this out from? ... ] Take a look at http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~cs3604/lib/Therac_25/Therac_1.html ] This is a reprint from IEEE Computer (might even be the original article ] I saw :) ] ] clint From max82 at surfree.com Wed Apr 7 20:42:53 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <19990408023125.17091.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 8 Apr 1999, Eric Smith wrote: >> These fellows >> spent a couple of sessions talking about and demonstrating the screwy means >> by which certain game vendors in the Apple market were "protecting" their >> wares by altering the timing of the positioning routine, thereby making it >> possible to write tracks "off the track" by changing the time delay between >> a known cylinder position and the point at which the specific track was to >> be written. This made it impossible for someone using the stock timing of >> the positioning mechanism to read the diskettes so written. How does this work? Do you mean that the disk drive has no internal means of judging whether or not it's on the right track and that this is determined by the contents of the disk? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From dogas at leading.net Wed Apr 7 21:38:10 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:54 2005 Subject: SoCal TRW Swap and DEC Open House Message-ID: <01be8168$d76bca20$d5c962cf@devlaptop> From: Christian Fandt >>Anyone know if there's ever anything like this in/near/around Western PA >>(Eastern Ohio, Northern VA)? nope but here's an open invitation for anyone passing through Jacksonville anytime. - Mike: dogas@leading.net From djenner at halcyon.com Wed Apr 7 21:52:46 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Microsoft is about to arrest me! References: <199904080203.CAA19525@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <370C19FE.1801EF07@halcyon.com> I think it's pretty common. I've seen quite a few of these around. I built 2-3 Z-80 cards for Apple IIs using $5-$10 clone circuit boards. It cost only a few dollars to stuff the cards with parts. You might still be able to find the bare cards around. Dave Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > Well, I just bought something at a used bookstore called "SOFTCARD; VOLUME II" > > Its a microsoft product, and apparently its illegal to even give it away, > let alone to resell it ;) I'm going to ignore that obviously illegal > wording ;) > > Apparenly this is the software and manual for the Microsoft Z80 card > for the Apple II series. I have one floppy disk, never used, in > 16-sector format for DOS 3.3 or language card. Apparently there should > be another manual with chapters 1-3 (unfotunately these are the > more interesting chapters), whereas this is chapter 4 on the latest and > greatest microsoft basic ever created, which is apparently on the > floppy disks ;) plus a little information in the final chapter 5. > > I dont suppose i can use any of this without the Z80 card? The cp/m wont > work without it i'm guessing. Am I correct in guessing all this is > good for is Ebay or trades? > > -Lawrence LeMay > > PS: I also picked up a nice copy of "the programmers CP/M handbook" which > provides extensive coverage of CP/M 2.2, mainly assebly listings. It > looks like more than 50% of it is assembly listings. Interesting... > > PPS: I really should go back and buy that UCSD P-system book, I suppose. From djenner at halcyon.com Wed Apr 7 21:56:16 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: OT: Classic Floppy Story References: <4.1.19990407123153.03cb7930@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <370C1AD0.69E79993@halcyon.com> I have in front of me the original box for a 5.25" dual disk drive that was the forerunner of the DEC RK50. (The drive is in my H89.) The box says: Another DAM floppy, by T and E Engineering Inc., Another DAM Company. It looks like they flaunted this DAM stuff all over the place! Dave Chuck McManis wrote: > > Early clones also used floppies from Daewoo Automated Manufacturying (DAM). > These floppys had DAM in raised relief on the plate across the bottom. When > ever they broke (which was frequently) is was "another DAM floppy failure." From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Apr 7 22:00:33 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! Message-ID: <199904080300.XAA02290@lumiere.cs.unc.edu> Erm, I really don't think Smalltalk began with Lisp in any way. The key idea in Smalltalk is encapsulization via class definition; Lisp is all about lists and (to a purist) functional programming. Both are very cool, and generally cleaner than the more "practical" languages, maybe because they define a model that isn't so close the the hardware. But they are really wildly different from each other, right down to the bone. Lisp is not at all object oriented, and Smalltalk is nothing but. If all the languages you've used are the close-to-hardware procedural kind, then these will seem novel. In that case, you might also check out ML, Prolog, APL, SNOBOL, and Icon. APL and Icon are still comfortably procedural, and SNOBOL is crude by modern standards, but each of those has its own way-out-of-the- mainstream aspects. Maybe none have the simplicity of pure Lisp, though. There is something attractive about a language that does just one thing, but does it well. Bill. PS. As a bonus, these all pass the ten-year rule. (Well, I'm not 100% sure about ML, but I *think* it does.) ] From: Max Eskin ] To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ] ] Date: Saturday, April 03, 1999 11:44 PM ] Subject: Hallelujah! ] ] ] I've finally gotten around to reading a LISP book that I had bought months ] before, and I can see why people refer to LISP as a religious experience ] (I've seen that said at least twice). It's really a wonderful language. I ] wonder how it is worse than BASIC or Perl. Also, although I didn't really ] take the time to really understand smalltalk (Squeak is slow and ] unstable), I can see the beginnings of smalltalk in LISP. Wow. This thing ] really is pretty amazing. This should be taught in every computer ] programming course, along with PAL-8, C, and Perl. I am now certain that ] if a language is hard to learn (C++ comes to mind), there's something ] wrong with it :) ] ] --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Apr 7 22:03:58 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: A little OT? Sun PS questions... Message-ID: <19990408030358.19895.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Speaking of sparcs, > > This might be a little OT, but it does *involve* a Sun 3/50. At least the > dead shell of one. John Lawson was kind enough to donate the mainboard > from a Sparcserver 600MP to the cause today, but I don't have anywhere to > put it (no comments on that, please). The question is this: can I put this > board into the 3/50's case? From what I understand, the old VME chassis > only provided power. Of course, the capacity of the 3/50's ps is a > question too; I think it's rated somewhere around 20A at 5v, and the 600MP > board requires something like 15A @ 5v, with no RAM or Mbus modules. I tried that with no good results. I'm told that the 3/50 PSU doesn't provide both +12v and -12v on the single power connector, or that the 6xx/MP board doesn't get comm voltages from that particular connector or some other power-related reason why RS-232 doesn't work in that configuration. I was also told that the 6xx/MP board wants to see some kind of termination on some of the VME signals or it won't past self-test. As I said, I could never make it work, and the original 3/50 mainboard _does_ work in my 3/50 chassis, so it's not an overall PSU problem. Further, I am also told that a 6XX/MP board _will_ work in any sort of Sun VMS cage, including a 4/110 tower, one of the smaller configurations that Sun sold. BTW, don't try to run a newer version of Solaris on that board... Solaris 2.6 has checks for the 6XX/MP line and halts on startup. 2.7 (Solaris 7) is completely missing kernel support for any VME machines. If you find out any of this is wrong, I'd love to hear it; maybe someday I could get my configuration working. For now, I'll restore the 3/50 as is. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Apr 7 22:09:14 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture Message-ID: <199904080309.XAA02317@lumiere.cs.unc.edu> On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: ] > To put this slightly on topic, we all know that computer systems have ] > become more reliable in the last 20 years but does anyone have any real ] ] I am not totally convinced. Computers have become a lot more complicated ] in the last 20 years, and IMHO some of that complexity has led to ] unreliablity (cf the comparative crash rate of say Windows and CP/M). I am totally unconvinced. :-) The number of times per day that I run into something that doesn't work has steadily gone up over the years. Years ago, although the machine might crash from time to time, it would generally work pretty well. Nowadays, even when the machine is "working", I have to wait for the characters that I type to show up on my screen, and programs that I run every day will often refuse to work because some server that I've never even heard of is down or unreachable. Prediction: between ten and twenty years from now, somebody will discover "standalone" computing; that a computer can be made to function even when not attached to a network. It will be a revolution, paving the way for systems that keep working once they are set up, even with evil sysadmins reconfiguring everything they can get their hands on three times a week. ] Also, I have had _far_ more built-to-a-price PC parts land on my bench to ] be repaired than (say) DEC PDP11 and PDP8 parts. For all I have had to ] maintain many _more_ of the latter type of machine. ] ] -tony From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Apr 7 22:17:06 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Two 4869 floppy drives Message-ID: <199904080317.XAA02375@lumiere.cs.unc.edu> Cheap would be cost of postage. I've been trying to get rid of three of them for that price for, oh, probably a year now. Finally, as of last week, I may have a taker. Though I haven't heard back from him, and it has been several days now... Bill. On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Mike Ford wrote: ] In todays wanderings I found two seemingly very nice condition 4869 ] external floppy drives, they were not cheap, but then I don't know what ] cheap for them would be. If anybody is interested email me as I will return ] to that haunt on Thursday. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 7 22:22:16 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: SA-400's (was: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies Message-ID: <199904080322.AA26010@world.std.com> I don't believe those were the earliest of the 5-1/4" types. The early <> SA-400's I remember used a lead screw just like the 8" drives, but that w the SA800 was lead screw but, the sa400 was the spiral groove disk. I know as I still have the working SA400 (not the later L) that came with the Northstar* MDS purchased in 1977 (very low sn#). Allison From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Apr 7 22:25:22 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Two 4869 floppy drives In-Reply-To: <199904080317.XAA02375@lumiere.cs.unc.edu> from Bill Yakowenko at "Apr 7, 1999 11:17:06 pm" Message-ID: <199904080325.DAA19632@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > Cheap would be cost of postage. I've been trying to get rid of > three of them for that price for, oh, probably a year now. > Finally, as of last week, I may have a taker. Though I haven't > heard back from him, and it has been several days now... > > Bill. > Well, there are 3 people fighting over a 4869 on ebay, the price is already up to $12.51, so there must be people willing to take them off your hands. -Lawrence LeMay From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Apr 7 22:37:45 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Reliability In-Reply-To: <199904080309.XAA02317@lumiere.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19990407203613.00b00eb0@mcmanis.com> At 11:09 PM 4/7/99 -0400, Bill Yakowenko wrote: >The number of times per day that I run into something that doesn't >work has steadily gone up over the years. Data point: Total lemon PeeCee that wouldn't run Win95 reliably for more than two days with light usage. Same PC running FreeBSD 2.2.8 has been up for over 100 days and is still cranking just fine with a fairly heavy internet load. Coincidence? You decide. --Chuck From bmahoney at sprint.ca Thu Apr 8 00:28:09 1999 From: bmahoney at sprint.ca (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Microsoft is about to arrest me! References: <199904080203.CAA19525@thorin.cs.umn.edu> <370C19FE.1801EF07@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <370C3E69.7C2E0FBA@sprint.ca> In regard to this topic, I have an Apple Z80 card that seems to connect to the board via a wide rubber-covered interface, one end on the card the other to the board. It has the Z80 cpu plus an AMD 2716IDC Applicard Copy chip too. Dated 1/85. Couple of questions: (Questions are basic. I'm a writer not a techie, per se.) 1. Where is this card supposed to go? Does it sit outside the case or connect inside somehow? The front is sloped as if it would sit on the board under the lid plus there is a small 'leg' on the card with a hole in it as if to screw onto something. 2. As I also have lots of Apple CP/M disks, what is the routine for booting? From the drive? Key routine? Holy water? 3. Which slot would the card use? I assume it has memory on it and bypasses everything on the mboard except the drive but maybe not. Also, general interest here, I have at least two Apple clones that have both the Apple cpu on the board and a Z80. Not sure if this is common in the States or not as there seems to be a lot more clones up here in Canada. One of these clones has what looks like a set of connectors for another type of floppy plus the regular Apple floppy driver card. Brian Mahoney "David C. Jenner" wrote: > I think it's pretty common. I've seen quite a few of these around. > > I built 2-3 Z-80 cards for Apple IIs using $5-$10 clone circuit boards. > It cost only a few dollars to stuff the cards with parts. You might > still be able to find the bare cards around. > > Dave -- http://members.xoom.com/T3C/ http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/antique_computers http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/ "It's amazing how much I have learned since I thought I knew it all." From max82 at surfree.com Wed Apr 7 21:32:23 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Therac-25 (was: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture) In-Reply-To: <199904080232.WAA02206@lumiere.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: >That's the same URL that I have bookmarked. I very strongly recommend >that every programmer read through it, at least once. It is long, but >enlightening. Correctness is a lot more than "seems to work". I just read this, I found it quite upsetting. If there were any one person who could be blamed for this, I would say stick 'em under the electron gun and blast them with all it's got. Honestly, I think that this thing didn't "seem to work". This software was clearly designed and implemented very poorly. What kind of professional delivers a finished product that leaves garbage on the screen? Last I checked, Microsoft did not make linear accelerators... --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From joebar at microsoft.com Wed Apr 7 22:57:16 1999 From: joebar at microsoft.com (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Microsoft is about to arrest me! References: <199904080203.CAA19525@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <001601be8173$e5ed5130$4001010a@joebargx1> You obviously didn't realize, or you forgot, that this list has Microsoft lurkers on it. You are in DEEP trouble. You have three choices: 1. Hand all materials over to Microsoft, and turn over the owner of the bookstore to us. 2. Leave the country. Quickly. 3. Mail me $5000 and I'll see if I can smooth things out at this end. Glad to be of service, - Joe From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 7 22:43:31 1999 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:00:33 -0400 (EDT) . <199904080300.XAA02290@lumiere.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: In message <199904080300.XAA02290@lumiere.cs.unc.edu>, Bill Yakowenko writes: >PS. As a bonus, these all pass the ten-year rule. (Well, I'm not > 100% sure about ML, but I *think* it does.) > Yes, it does indeed. I remember coming across it in my doctoral program. I took that particular course sometime in '87-'89 and it had been around for a while before that. Brian L. Stuart From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 7 23:54:31 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) Message-ID: <002701be817b$e4616060$0100c0a8@fuj03> The disk drive has a place beyond which its head assembly won't move. If you've ever written FDC code, you know what it sounds like when you try to go beyond the limit. What's more, there's a sensor to tell you when you're at that point, though I doubt Apple used it. It's just as easy to move the heads until you're sure they've gone as far as they can. Once you've done that, what better way could there be than to look for a track and then adjust until the signal is readable? That's how drives of all sorts work today. Of course, they all have some way of establishing where a track ought to be to begin with. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 8:53 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) >On 8 Apr 1999, Eric Smith wrote: >>> These fellows >>> spent a couple of sessions talking about and demonstrating the screwy means >>> by which certain game vendors in the Apple market were "protecting" their >>> wares by altering the timing of the positioning routine, thereby making it >>> possible to write tracks "off the track" by changing the time delay between >>> a known cylinder position and the point at which the specific track was to >>> be written. This made it impossible for someone using the stock timing of >>> the positioning mechanism to read the diskettes so written. > >How does this work? Do you mean that the disk drive has no internal means >of judging whether or not it's on the right track and that this is >determined by the contents of the disk? > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 8 00:05:10 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) Message-ID: <004001be817d$61058780$0100c0a8@fuj03> Well, perhaps you're right about the discussions you recall, Eric. I do recall that there was an effort afoot to use 80-track drives to read some diskettes written with the off-track method used by (Bill Budge?) games, etc, in order to defeat their copy protection. I do recall the comment being made, however, that a while person might defeat that particular copy protection, since the mechanism under discussion was capable of putting a track literally anywhere on the diskette, ( which certainly couldn't have been done with a stepper ) the protection scheme wouldn't hold up. In any case, it's good someone else was paying attention at the time, as it didn't really matter to me, though I found it interesting. It was, after all, over 20 years ago. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 8:37 PM Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) >"Richard Erlacher" wrote: >> (2) - I remember lengthy discussions among those members of the Denver Area >> 6502-Users' Group who were presumably qualified to discuss the intricacies >> of the internals of APPLE's disk I/O routines at a level I neither knew nor >> cared about, beyond the superficial details I gleaned from the several and >> varied sessions discussing that set of details. Now, I attended these >> weekely and typically 4-hour long meetings for several years, and KNOW the >> guys who were hashing out the details of the hardware and software in >> question knew what they were talking about, so I accept that as fact. > >Then, as you'll recall, I was one of the people who spoke at those meetings >regarding the operation of the Disk ][. Armed with information provided by >Wayne Wall, Larry Fish, and Peter Boyle, I delved into the disk system in order >to figure out how to defeat various copy protection schemes, including the >various half-track and quarter-track positioning methods. Larry was involved >in Apparat's efforts to interface standard Teac FD55 series disk drives to >the Apple ][ controller. > >> These fellows >> spent a couple of sessions talking about and demonstrating the screwy means >> by which certain game vendors in the Apple market were "protecting" their >> wares by altering the timing of the positioning routine, thereby making it >> possible to write tracks "off the track" by changing the time delay between >> a known cylinder position and the point at which the specific track was to >> be written. This made it impossible for someone using the stock timing of >> the positioning mechanism to read the diskettes so written. > >No, the postioning that was discussed was the half-track positioning I >described earlier. If you look at the Apple RWTS routines (for either 13- >or 16-sector diskettes), you'll find that the low level postioning routine >actually takes an argument that is two times the track number. > >The only thing about it that was non-obvious was the timing of the >acceleration/decelleration profile used to speed up the seek process. >However, this did not affect the final head position. > >> The scheme with the tristate multiplexers came later, I believe, than the >> one I remember. > >I'm not sure what tristate multiplexers you're referring to. The controller >for the Disk ][ never changed in any non-trivial way. Some later cards for >use with the Unidisk and Duodisk used a 19-pin D-subminiature connector in >place of the pair of 20-pin right angle headers, but the electronics was the >same. Starting with the Apple ][c they used the IWM chip, which was a >slightly fancier single-chip version of the original controller, but the >positioner control method didn't change. > >> Apple had several patents, all of which are there to be >> examined if one wishes. I believe this software-timed positioning scheme >> was among them. > >They had exactly one patent from that era which covers the disk controller. >It describes (among other things) how they use a stepper motor for positioning. > >> I doubt, however, that Wayne Wall would have allowed the waste of >> several sessions of the meetings he so firmly controlled back in those days, >> if the assumptions presented as fact in those discussions had not been >> verified. > >I'm sure he wouldn't have. Which is why there was not any discussion of >using DC motors for head positioning. > >> The helical cam I remember didn't have a groove, but rather, a ridge or > >Regarding mechanical details of the Disk ][ drive I'll readily concede that >you are likely correct, as I never bothered to study the mechanism, only >the electronics and code. > >Cheers, >Eric From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Apr 8 00:38:58 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Q-bus pinout Message-ID: <4.1.19990407223654.009ed470@mcmanis.com> Hello, is the Q-bus pinout on line? I've got an extender card and I'd like to know if it was compatible or not. Also a pointer to the printset for the PDP-8/e H724 PSU would be good, I've got one that is half dead (fortunately it is the back half so with the computer in the front half it runs!) --Chuck From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Thu Apr 8 01:38:40 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199904080638.QAA30004@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 08:35 06/04/99 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >> On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >> > I have never had a desire for DEC hardware, mainly because of my distaste >> > (and disdain) for their application of technology, and of course for their >> > overemphasis on the bottom line, meaning THEIR bottom line. If you read the >> > fine print, their sales documents specifically deny that they claim their >> > products work. argghhh! I'm GLAD they're gone. THEY were the reason I had >> > to have terminals around as long as I did. > >As someone that spent 10 years with DEC doing everthing possible to >improve product and perception of service, I resent that! I remember far >to many times bending over backward for customers to solve their problems >and often flying all over the country on a moments notice. We werent >perfect but, damm we tried. Well as someone who has (had?) been a Digital/DEC customer for 25 years one of the problems that DEC had was that until too late they weren't focused on the bottom line, rather decent engineering. Anyone who has (for example) taken a VAX-11/780 or VAX8800 to pieces will note that there are an awful large number of mechanical bits that are engineered to last a 100 years! I'm sure half the weight of an 11/780 is in bolts :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Thu Apr 8 01:49:17 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: References: <199904060223.MAA11484@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <199904080649.QAA29943@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 22:44 06/04/99 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >I am not totally convinced. Computers have become a lot more complicated >in the last 20 years, and IMHO some of that complexity has led to >unreliablity (cf the comparative crash rate of say Windows and CP/M). The sort of anecdotal evidence that I can put forward is that the VAXes I currently look after are more reliable than the 11/780s I looked after ten or so years ago which in turn were significantly more reliable that the DECsystem-10 I used to use. However, this is just my experience so it's hardly hard scientific proof. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 8 02:50:02 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Q-bus pinout In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis "Q-bus pinout" (Apr 7, 22:38) References: <4.1.19990407223654.009ed470@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <9904080850.ZM20070@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 7, 22:38, Chuck McManis wrote: > Subject: Q-bus pinout > Hello, is the Q-bus pinout on line? I've got an extender card and I'd like > to know if it was compatible or not. There's a PostScript file showing the pinout at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/QBusConns.ps (and a larger copy there also). Can't help with the PDP-8 PSU, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 8 03:19:01 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: (message from Max Eskin on Wed, 7 Apr 1999 21:42:53 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <19990408081901.18387.qmail@brouhaha.com> Max wrote: > On 8 Apr 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > >> These fellows > >> spent a couple of sessions talking about and demonstrating the screwy means > >> by which certain game vendors in the Apple market were "protecting" their I didn't write anything of the sort. Please try to get attributions correct. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 8 03:20:47 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <199904080309.XAA02317@lumiere.cs.unc.edu> (message from Bill Yakowenko on Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:09:14 -0400 (EDT)) References: <199904080309.XAA02317@lumiere.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <19990408082047.18396.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Prediction: between ten and twenty years from now, somebody will > discover "standalone" computing; that a computer can be made to > function even when not attached to a network. It will be a > revolution, paving the way for systems that keep working once > they are set up, even with evil sysadmins reconfiguring everything > they can get their hands on three times a week. Kind of like the classic Asimov short story about the guy that discovers that it is possible to calculate without a calculator. From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Apr 7 23:43:05 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies In-Reply-To: <001201be8148$442ed1a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: >Of course, Apple's orientation toward YOUR data was that nobody really cared >if you had to punt and hit the reset button just because the FDD wouldn't >read the floppy it wrote just a few minutes before . . . After all, if you >were serious, you didn't use an Apple. If you were serious it's for sure >you had some 8" drives for the data you wanted to keep. There was a bit of a problem with drive to drive track alignment, but in general I was so glad to get away from using a cassette to store data on, it sure "felt" like perfection. People today don't realize that the old systems used a floppy like present systems use a hard drive, almost all the time, which is a heck of a lot of wear for a contact media. I remember a few issues, but no real problems, and with several brands I don't think I ever had a problem of any kind. From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 8 00:55:11 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: SoCal TRW Swap and DEC Open House In-Reply-To: <01be817c$8fe79800$119ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: >Anyone know if there's ever anything like this in/near/around Western PA >(Eastern Ohio, Northern VA)? Yes of course. Find hams, any ham, and they will know all the horsetrading within unreasonable driving distance. From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 8 01:51:05 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Microsoft is about to arrest me! In-Reply-To: <001601be8173$e5ed5130$4001010a@joebargx1> References: <199904080203.CAA19525@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >You obviously didn't realize, or you forgot, that this list has Microsoft >lurkers on it. > >You are in DEEP trouble. You have three choices: Funny. A couple months ago I was setting at my computer trying to help out a guy in the midst of the midwest, ie I am making an illegal copy of some software. Right in the middle, like as I am swapping the floppies in my drive, I get a call from Microsoft antipiracy advising me of recent prosecutions of VARs in SoCal. Funny, yep, bundle of yucks. From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 8 03:21:32 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives Message-ID: Coincident with all this chatter on floppy drives I have run into a streak of uncooperative drives. I happen to be using macs with 3.5" Sony mechanisms, but my question is somewhat general. What do you do with floppy drives that need repairs? Normally I just put them aside, but after this week I have close to a dozen in the defective box and ZERO (actually a negative number since I need even more) reliable units that aren't already installed in other systems. I have already performed the first aid procedures like cleaning the heads (using a wet cleaning floppy), and disassembly down to the bare mechanism and blowing out the bunnies with canned air. This pile is the hard core rejects, floppy doesn't spin, floppy doesn't eject, which I guess means a drive motor or support electronics is shot. For perspective, Apple still wants like $150 for a new floppy, mail order sources have the same for about $70, and reliable refurbs run the gamut from a low of about $20 up to $50 or more (used OK drives are $10 to $20. and my last pesky supplier was asking $5 for untested pulls). What I am finding disturbing is that more and more of the drives I see have OBVIOUSLY been swapped from another machine, or show other signs of being opened up by non techs (missing screws or other parts). What are your opinions, practices, or sources? Do any of you fix your floppies? Thanks. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Apr 8 04:51:53 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: SoCal TRW Swap and DEC Open House Message-ID: <19990408095153.19928.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Ford wrote: > >Anyone know if there's ever anything like this in/near/around Western PA > >(Eastern Ohio, Northern VA)? > > Yes of course. Find hams, any ham, and they will know all the horsetrading > within unreasonable driving distance. I am in Central Ohio (not exactly Eastern Ohio, but probably as close to the request as we're likely to see). The big mother of swapmeets in my immediate area are the shows in Dayton in March and August (Dayton Computerfest) and the massive Dayton Hamfest in May. Admittedly, none of these shows are purely people with cool, used stuff to sell (there are more vendors selling new stuff), but I got some great bargains at the computerfest last month on lots of used items that I have been seeking for some time. These days there aren't many classics at the Dayton shows, but I have purchased at Dayton in the past things like a COSMAC VIP, an ASR-33, a PDP-8L (my first -8, about 15 years ago), DECmates, CPU chips from the 1970's, etc. Lately, it's been easier to find older components than systems; I've gotten boxes of Teac FD55's for a song (still untested ;-), MFM disk drives for less than $0.20 per meg, uVAX and DECmate cables for $1, some older IC's occasionally, etc. Other than Dayton, there are a few Hamfests that I make a point of going to, first and foremost: the Mansfield Hamfest, one of the first of the season. It's where I picked up that Apple //c+, recently. Someone had a Kapyro 2 there, but I wasn't going to pay $100 for it. We don't have as many opportunities here as on the coasts, but things can be found. I just last night rescued a uVAX 2000 with a pair of VR290's (one working, one with a bad power supply) from the widow of a friend of mine who died last year. I was told to get this "junk" this week or it was going out with the neighborhood bulk collection next week. Besides the CPU and monitors, there's a TK50-FA, an LA120 and an 8-port terminal server. Does anybody but DEC speak LAT? -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Apr 8 04:51:25 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: A little OT? Sun PS questions... Message-ID: <19990408095125.12532.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Further, I am also told that a 6XX/MP board _will_ work in any sort of > Sun VMS cage, including a 4/110 tower, one of the smaller configurations > that Sun sold. Doh! Make that a "VME" cage. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Apr 8 05:02:17 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Rotting away Message-ID: <19990408100217.8116.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> > On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, KNIGHT G.A wrote: > > > http://www.nwfl.net/haynesdl/requests/games-a-rottin.JPG > > if ever you're wondering if saving computers from the scrap > > heap is the right thing, check out this link. It's rather a > > sorry sight. > Ow! I'm also a bit of a video-game restorer (presently my best example is a fully restored Gorf), but I've done more to help a friend of mine than I have for myself. At one point, my friend needed some AMD 2901's which are used in the 16-bit math co-pro for Battlezone. We had a pile of dead VAX-11/730 boards at work (self-maintained), so I desoldered some 2901's for him and he was so happy to have VAX parts in his video game. (I still have that 11/730; it was the first machine I ever installed UNIX on, Ultrix 1.1; we used it at work for Usenet before the Great Renaming) Every once in a while, I still go to video-game auctions. It is possible to pick up full-sized games for under $100 if you don't want the hottest games. PacMac, Galaga and other classics are still available, but for big bucks. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Apr 8 05:04:43 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: FW: PDP-11/83 looking for good home Message-ID: <19990408100443.13975.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bruce Lane wrote: > Arrrgh! Why couldn't this guy have been in north Seattle or something? > I've been hunting for an 11/83! > > Anyone in Ohio looking for a nice PDP in a Worldbox? I've been looking for any PDP-11 faster than an 11/23. The WorldBox is a nice touch (I've already got one for my uVAX-II) > Attachment follows. Thanks. I was out of town for the original announcement. I'll see if it's still available (probably not). -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 8 05:11:29 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: SoCal TRW Swap and DEC Open House In-Reply-To: <01be817c$8fe79800$119ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > Anyone know if there's ever anything like this in/near/around Western PA > (Eastern Ohio, Northern VA)? Why don't you host one? Join in the fray and post a gathering announcement for your area. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From foxvideo at wincom.net Thu Apr 8 05:16:28 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: potholes Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990408061628.007a37f0@mail.wincom.net> Did anyone catch the bit on ABC news last night about the use of old computers to fill potholes? I think some of our Windsor potholes would require at least a mini. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 8 05:16:47 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On 8 Apr 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > >> These fellows > >> spent a couple of sessions talking about and demonstrating the screwy means > >> by which certain game vendors in the Apple market were "protecting" their > >> wares by altering the timing of the positioning routine, thereby making it > >> possible to write tracks "off the track" by changing the time delay between > >> a known cylinder position and the point at which the specific track was to > >> be written. This made it impossible for someone using the stock timing of > >> the positioning mechanism to read the diskettes so written. > > How does this work? Do you mean that the disk drive has no internal means > of judging whether or not it's on the right track and that this is > determined by the contents of the disk? Basically, yes. The track and sector are stored in the sector header of each sector, among other data. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 8 05:20:28 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <199904080309.XAA02317@lumiere.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Prediction: between ten and twenty years from now, somebody will > discover "standalone" computing; that a computer can be made to > function even when not attached to a network. It will be a > revolution, paving the way for systems that keep working once > they are set up, even with evil sysadmins reconfiguring everything > they can get their hands on three times a week. You are indeed a visionary (or at least a computer historian who has studied his history well :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 8 05:26:41 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Microsoft is about to arrest me! In-Reply-To: <370C3E69.7C2E0FBA@sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Brian Mahoney wrote: > In regard to this topic, I have an Apple Z80 card that seems to > connect to the board via a wide rubber-covered interface, one end on > the card the other to the board. It has the Z80 cpu plus an AMD > 2716IDC Applicard Copy chip too. Dated 1/85. Couple of questions: > (Questions are basic. I'm a writer not a techie, per se.) > > 1. Where is this card supposed to go? Does it sit outside the case or > connect inside somehow? The front is sloped as if it would sit on the > board under the lid plus there is a small 'leg' on the card with a > hole in it as if to screw onto something. I can't quite make out your description but generally you would plug the CP/M card into slot 0 of a ][+, and I think slot 3 of a //e. > 2. As I also have lots of Apple CP/M disks, what is the routine for > booting? From the drive? Key routine? Holy water? Just stick it in the drive and reboot. The boot sector on the disk will automatically activate the CP/M card. > 3. Which slot would the card use? I assume it has memory on it and > bypasses everything on the mboard except the drive but maybe not. Nope, it uses the same RAM as on the motherboard. Some cards, like the Premium Microsoft Softcard //e, provided CP/M, 80-columns and an additional bank of 64K for the Apple //e. > Also, general interest here, I have at least two Apple clones that > have both the Apple cpu on the board and a Z80. Not sure if this is > common in the States or not as there seems to be a lot more clones up > here in Canada. One of these clones has what looks like a set of > connectors for another type of floppy plus the regular Apple floppy > driver card. Some clones came like this. Apple clones are something that I wish I was more serious about collecting as I've passed up a few. They have odd and interesting variations that make them unique and collectable in my opinion. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 8 05:37:14 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > Coincident with all this chatter on floppy drives I have run into a streak > of uncooperative drives. I happen to be using macs with 3.5" Sony > mechanisms, but my question is somewhat general. What do you do with floppy > drives that need repairs? <...> > Do any of you fix your floppies? Yes. As much as I can at least. The drive electronics are beyond me but mechanically I can mend most problems. The issue with the Mac drives usually tends to be the lubricant that gets gooey over time. You must use an electronic cleaner like Blue Shower or similar to wash away the gooey lube, then re-lube it with a suitable lubricating element (I don't know...sewing machine oil?) This usually unsticks the eject mechanism. Careful with these damn Apple (Sony) 3.5" drives though. If you don't treat them properly when you're cleaning them they will come down with this wierd condition where they will constantly recalibrate when you apply power, as if the drive doesn't know its reached the head stop. Seems to be some sort of electronics issue. One other person I know has experienced this problem as well. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 8 07:28:22 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <002701be817b$e4616060$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: > you've ever written FDC code, you know what it sounds like when you try to > go beyond the limit. What's more, there's a sensor to tell you when you're > at that point, though I doubt Apple used it. It's just as easy to move the Actually there are two points. One is track 000 and the other is the innermost (for sa400 35-40 tracks later). Only track 000 was sensored save for apple didn't use that either. Apple cut the interface to the minimim number of wires and signals possible and made up the difference with software, rather clever in my mind. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 8 07:47:46 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <199904080649.QAA29943@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: > The sort of anecdotal evidence that I can put forward is that the VAXes I > currently look after are more reliable than the 11/780s I looked after ten > or so years ago which in turn were significantly more reliable that the > DECsystem-10 I used to use. However, this is just my experience so it's > hardly hard scientific proof. For hard evidence of that look at the maintence contract costs for a minimum system 10, 780 and uVAX. IT's all there in black and white (and dollars/pounds/Marks). Thre is no question that is true. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Apr 8 08:47:37 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "Apr 8, 1999 8:47:46 am" Message-ID: <199904081347.JAA31377@pechter.dyndns.org> > > The sort of anecdotal evidence that I can put forward is that the VAXes I > > currently look after are more reliable than the 11/780s I looked after ten > > or so years ago which in turn were significantly more reliable that the > > DECsystem-10 I used to use. However, this is just my experience so it's > > hardly hard scientific proof. > > For hard evidence of that look at the maintence contract costs for a > minimum system 10, 780 and uVAX. IT's all there in black and white > (and dollars/pounds/Marks). Thre is no question that is true. > > > Actually, to follow up on Allison's point, you`ve got to look at the service cost when the machine was newly released, when it was in mainline use and about 5-10 years after release to get a real feel for it. Sometimes machine's are pushed up in maintenance cost because of parts availability, lack of trained personnel as well as difficulty of repair and reliability. Sometimes there aren't enough spares. Sometimes they want to market the new replacement machine aggressively and push for trade in's. (DEC did this when they had a massive need for Refurb 11/70's for AT&T). Sometimes the machine is too difficult for the current level of tech to repair -- say PDP 11/70's now...8-( Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 8 08:55:36 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <199904081347.JAA31377@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: > Sometimes the machine is too difficult for the current level of tech > to repair -- say PDP 11/70's now...8-( Say PDP-8e now, most would be terrified by the likes of a SMP KL10 cluster. allison From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Apr 8 09:07:47 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "Apr 8, 1999 9:55:36 am" Message-ID: <199904081407.KAA32075@pechter.dyndns.org> > > Sometimes the machine is too difficult for the current level of tech > > to repair -- say PDP 11/70's now...8-( > > Say PDP-8e now, most would be terrified by the likes of a SMP KL10 > cluster. > > allison Ugh... I've seen a Tri-SMP 10 at Johnson and Johnson around '85. I never was a KL guy, but I worked on the TU45's for them. Actually, 11/70's were tough to troubleshoot when the problem was in the Cache-Massbus-Memory interconnect. The 11/70 diags were pretty good. I think DEC did some of the best diags in the industry. I was amazed that the Perkin Elmer, Concurrent stuff didn't get much smarter than XXDP v1 on tape. No ease of use nothing like DEC/X11. The DEC Diag Supervisor was copied by Masscomp, Alliant and probably others looking for improved diags. DEC's customer runnable MicroVax stuff was fairly lame though. IBM's stuff on the RS6000 was pretty good. Sun's Sparc stuff was OK -- assuming you could get Unix up to run it. Anyone else here find diagnostic tool design and interface an interesting topic. The rest was good old 11 series stuff. A Unibus was a Unibus (more or less) until the 11/780 Unibus adapter got involved. Actually, my worst nightmare was a Straight PDP-8 where the prints didn't match the ECO's and the parts weren't available. It was in service through the late '80's (86+) at Ft. Monmouth, NJ. And I wasn't 8 trained at all. Either that, or the 11/782 who's software (DSC, Backup) didn't work under VMS correctly and memory had to be moved to the primary processor from the attached CPU to back it up before I could fix it. (This later became two 11/785's -- a much better thing) Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 8 09:18:05 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture Message-ID: <990408101805.202000ef@trailing-edge.com> >DEC's customer runnable MicroVax stuff was fairly lame though. Generally, if you can boot the diagnostics on a Microvax, you know that the Microvax is OK. Yep, pretty useless, considering that if you can't boot VMS, you can't boot the diagnostics. The PDP-11 based diagnostics were much more flexible. You could load from paper tape if your disk or tape drive system was sick. You didn't need interrupts or even DMA operational to load them, so you could do some basic tests on a box that didn't even have full backplane continuity! Tim. From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 8 09:09:32 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives Message-ID: <002a01be81c9$8139a1c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Since new floppy drives cost about $25 including shipment, it's difficult to justify repairing them. This is frustrating for people like you who have drives for which replacements are not readily available for $20 or so. Your experience with sloppy workmanship gives clear indication that $10 per hour is not enough to pay a competent technician. The occasional look inside should give you good indication of why one who can't spend more than 15 minutes' time fixing a $20 drive, can't get the job done. These devices must be considered "throw-away" items by now. You've got to learn to fix-em-yourself. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 2:29 AM Subject: Fooling with floppy drives >Coincident with all this chatter on floppy drives I have run into a streak >of uncooperative drives. I happen to be using macs with 3.5" Sony >mechanisms, but my question is somewhat general. What do you do with floppy >drives that need repairs? > >Normally I just put them aside, but after this week I have close to a dozen >in the defective box and ZERO (actually a negative number since I need even >more) reliable units that aren't already installed in other systems. > >I have already performed the first aid procedures like cleaning the heads >(using a wet cleaning floppy), and disassembly down to the bare mechanism >and blowing out the bunnies with canned air. This pile is the hard core >rejects, floppy doesn't spin, floppy doesn't eject, which I guess means a >drive motor or support electronics is shot. > >For perspective, Apple still wants like $150 for a new floppy, mail order >sources have the same for about $70, and reliable refurbs run the gamut >from a low of about $20 up to $50 or more (used OK drives are $10 to $20. >and my last pesky supplier was asking $5 for untested pulls). What I am >finding disturbing is that more and more of the drives I see have OBVIOUSLY >been swapped from another machine, or show other signs of being opened up >by non techs (missing screws or other parts). > >What are your opinions, practices, or sources? > >Do any of you fix your floppies? > >Thanks. > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 8 10:45:31 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: 2901s was Re: Rotting away In-Reply-To: <19990408100217.8116.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990408104531.22970538@intellistar.net> Ethan, Can you give me a list of machines that you know of that have 2901s? I know 2901s are in short supply. I'll try to find some in those old game machines. Joe At 03:02 AM 4/8/99 -0700, you wrote: > > >> On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, KNIGHT G.A wrote: >> >> > http://www.nwfl.net/haynesdl/requests/games-a-rottin.JPG >> > if ever you're wondering if saving computers from the scrap >> > heap is the right thing, check out this link. It's rather a >> > sorry sight. >> > >Ow! I'm also a bit of a video-game restorer (presently my best example >is a fully restored Gorf), but I've done more to help a friend of mine >than I have for myself. At one point, my friend needed some AMD 2901's >which are used in the 16-bit math co-pro for Battlezone. We had a pile >of dead VAX-11/730 boards at work (self-maintained), so I desoldered >some 2901's for him and he was so happy to have VAX parts in his video >game. (I still have that 11/730; it was the first machine I ever installed >UNIX on, Ultrix 1.1; we used it at work for Usenet before the Great Renaming) > >Every once in a while, I still go to video-game auctions. It is possible to >pick up full-sized games for under $100 if you don't want the hottest games. >PacMac, Galaga and other classics are still available, but for big bucks. > >-ethan > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 8 10:56:07 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies In-Reply-To: References: <001201be8148$442ed1a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990408105607.220f9522@intellistar.net> At 09:43 PM 4/7/99 -0700, you wrote: People today don't realize that the old >systems used a floppy like present systems use a hard drive, almost all the >time, which is a heck of a lot of wear for a contact media. I used to work for Burroughs and they had a computer that used 8" floppys that spun continously. Burroughs said to replace the disks every 100 hours. I have no idea how long they would actually run before failing. Does anyone know? I have a CPM machine that spins it's 5 1/4" disk continously but I haven't run it enough for a disk to fail. Joe > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 8 10:49:53 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990408104953.22971ef2@intellistar.net> At 03:37 AM 4/8/99 -0700, Sellam wrote: >On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >> Coincident with all this chatter on floppy drives I have run into a streak >> of uncooperative drives. I happen to be using macs with 3.5" Sony >> mechanisms, but my question is somewhat general. What do you do with floppy >> drives that need repairs? ><...> >> Do any of you fix your floppies? > >Yes. As much as I can at least. The drive electronics are beyond me but >mechanically I can mend most problems. The issue with the Mac drives >usually tends to be the lubricant that gets gooey over time. You must use >an electronic cleaner like Blue Shower or similar to wash away the gooey >lube, then re-lube it with a suitable lubricating element (I don't >know...sewing machine oil?) This usually unsticks the eject mechanism. HP (sony made) floppy drives have the same problem. They stick part way open and don't eject the disk. If you pull the disk out, you WILL rip the top head off of a double sided drive. Never take a disk out or put a disk into a partially open HP floppy drive. Take the drive out and clean the old lube off so that it opens properly. Joe From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Apr 8 10:05:02 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives Message-ID: <96c80923.243e1f9e@aol.com> In a message dated 08/04/99 10:22:43 Eastern Daylight Time, edick@idcomm.com writes: << Since new floppy drives cost about $25 including shipment, it's difficult to justify repairing them. This is frustrating for people like you who have drives for which replacements are not readily available for $20 or so. Your experience with sloppy workmanship gives clear indication that $10 per hour is not enough to pay a competent technician. The occasional look inside should give you good indication of why one who can't spend more than 15 minutes' time fixing a $20 drive, can't get the job done. These devices must be considered "throw-away" items by now. You've got to learn to fix-em-yourself. >> agreed, but i'd only apply this throw away mindset to ordinary pc floppy drives. mac suprdrives are hard to find and expensive. i've one now in my mac IIx that's not reading any disks. apple drives are plentiful and cheap, but i'd fix them as well since none are produced anymore, obviously. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 8 10:13:29 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990408105607.220f9522@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > I used to work for Burroughs and they had a computer that used 8" > floppys that spun continously. Burroughs said to replace the disks every > 100 hours. I have no idea how long they would actually run before failing. > Does anyone know? I have a CPM machine that spins it's 5 1/4" disk > continously but I haven't run it enough for a disk to fail. I have 8" on my CPM crate and that spins 100% (most 8" do) with the head loaded and I have disks that are years old (thousands of hours). I also tend to run the motors full time on 5.35 drives to save spin up time and hed load time (it can save a lot of delay!). I haven't had problems with media failure that was related to doing this. A dirty or damaged head however can kill a disk in moments as it can lterally scrape the media off! Allison From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Apr 8 10:20:40 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: Floppy disk life (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990408105607.220f9522@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > At 09:43 PM 4/7/99 -0700, someone wrote: > > People today don't realize that the old > >systems used a floppy like present systems use a hard drive, almost all the > >time, which is a heck of a lot of wear for a contact media. > > I used to work for Burroughs and they had a computer that used 8" > floppys that spun continously. Burroughs said to replace the disks every > 100 hours. I have no idea how long they would actually run before failing. > Does anyone know? I have a CPM machine that spins it's 5 1/4" disk > continously but I haven't run it enough for a disk to fail. Well... (note this is a completely un-scientific analysis) back when CBBS/NW ran strictly off of two 8 inch floppy drives, we noted that it was just as likely for the drive to wear out as the floppies themselves. We replaced the disk if we noticed any (passing) errors during our weekly backups, but as I recall we had some floppys that had been in use on the system for easily a year or more with no signs of excessive wear... Some time later, we did add a mechanism to shut down the spindle motors on the drives after a time without a call. Those drives were still expensive after all! B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (if Sellam ever gets the date set) - CBBS/NW live! From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Apr 8 10:26:01 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: 2901s was Re: Rotting away Message-ID: <19990408152601.25882.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joe wrote: > Ethan, > > Can you give me a list of machines that you know of that have 2901s? I > know 2901s are in short supply. I'll try to find some in those old game > machines. Any of the Atari vector machines are likely to have 2901's as the core of a math co-processor to manupulate those vectors faster than the little 6502 ever could. My friend Tony is the Atari vector king; I've never owned one, unfortunately. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From arfonrg at texas.net Thu Apr 8 10:48:24 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: 2901s was Re: Rotting away In-Reply-To: <19990408152601.25882.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990408104824.00960370@texas.net> What exactly is a 2901 (besides an IC)? ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 8 11:12:22 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: 2901s was Re: Rotting away In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990408104824.00960370@texas.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > What exactly is a 2901 (besides an IC)? Its a ALU and register set all 4 bits wide and cascadable. A bunch of them and a few pounds(kilograms) of TTL and other goodies later and you have a computer. Lookup a 74181 alu (it's nearly the same) and hang 2 four bit registers around it and a 4bit by 16 nibble ram and thats a 2901. IT's very useful for cooking up all sorts of interesting cpus or their look alikes. And in the late 70s early 80s it's 10mhz speed made for potentially fast cpus or specialized number crunchers. It was also used in DEC FPPs for the PDP-11 series. I still have a fat handful of them around. Allison From william at ans.net Thu Apr 8 11:35:40 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:55 2005 Subject: 2901s was Re: Rotting away In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > And in > the late 70s early 80s it's 10mhz speed made for potentially fast cpus > or specialized number crunchers. And then there were 29G01s for the truely speedy... That's GaAs, boys and girls. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Thu Apr 8 11:53:08 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Lisp, the machine language. Was Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990404100141.00a9bbd0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: > COBOL was microcoded into some of the old Burroughs machines. Now that is not nearly as much fun as some of the COBOL like instructions that were implemented with state machines in some of the older mainframes! William Donzelli william@ans.net From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Apr 8 12:40:26 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Several things Message-ID: <8025674D.0061B67B.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> It has taken me a whole week to catch up with Classiccmp. So this is on oldish threads, I'm afraid... Tim Shoppa wrote (starting with a quotation from I don't know whom): >>C= PET VisiCalc EPROM >>--------------------- >>The Commodore PET version of the VisiCalc spreadsheet came with a chip that >>plugged into a socket on the main board. This was probably an EPROM, used for >>copy-protection. I have an original VisiCalc package, minus this EPROM. Does >>anyone know where I can download an image of the EPROM from? > > I'd be interested to know exactly what this chip did. It was never > perfectly clear to me that it was used for copy-protection. I was always under the impression that the ROM that came with Visicalc contained most of the code. I never used VZCalc on a PET (I had an old ROM PET, not compatible and no expansion sockets, and in those days no knowledge to change matters), but could the ROM have contained the code common to all modules? The argument on microcode and that which it spawned on ABS are a bit old, but since the subject line says "Several things" I may as well put in my bit. MICROCODE, Compilers, Assemblers. ================================= Microcode compilation is a good example of differences between humans and computers. Humans have (one hopes, if they are working at it at all) a BETTER UNDERSTANDING of the job (in one sense, computers have no understanding at all). Computers are FASTER and LESS PRONE TO MISTAKES [1]. In something like microcode compilation/optimisation, it is often a requirement to get the best possible result. If your processor knocks one clock cycle off an addition, because you spotted a shortcut in the microcode that your competitors' compiler/assembler didn't, you will have a faster processor. Probably significantly faster. But you can't claim that humans will always exhibit better PRODUCTIVITY (sorry William B, otherwise I agree with you) because doing it by hand is usually _far_ slower. The distinction between a compiler and an assembler is irrelevant here. As usual, there is a continuous spectrum of techniques and things like Hex monitors, assemblers, macro assemblers, compilers are names given to parts of the spectrum. No matter how you define them there will always be examples that are hard to place in one category or another. I think the point is: the more the computer does for you, the easier and faster it is to get a good result, but the more hassle it is to get the best result... Spc said "There's no such thing as compiled code - everything is interpreted" Definitely everything is interpreted. But unless the code fed to the interpreter, be it software, microcode or hardware, is what was written, it's compiled as well. Tony said, on processor design, you can either have one flip-flop to each machine state (like a P850) or microcode. Again there are intermediate points. I claim you can do quite well by numbering the machine states in a suitably chosen binary code and having one flip-flop to each bit. Logic for changing flip-flops is often _easier_ than when you have one flip-flop per state. (I have done both designs for the same circuit BTW). If you put this logic into a ROM, this becomes in a sense a microcode ROM, but you can do it combinatorially as well... [1] In principle anyway, computers will do what they've been told, rather than forget things. Microsoft have managed to write a suite of programs that do make random silly mistakes just like humans, but even Microsoft software is more predictable in its mistakes than humans are. ABS. ==== To try and keep this on topic, how did Ferguson do ABS in the early 1970s? I don't believe they would have used a microprocessor. I'd guess at an analogue computer, probably not even electronic. Would this be less frightening to Tony? Theory of ABS. -------------- The consensus (and I agree) seems to be that a sliding tyre has less good grip than a rolling one. If when braking, you start to skid, take the foot off and re-apply. This will shorten your stoping distance. I once saw (via television) a demo carried out at a skid pan. Car 1 jammed on brakes and skidded a long way. Car 2, same speed, pumped the brakes quite slowly (less than 1 Hz) and stopped in 1/2 the distance. ABS, by pumping brakes, will stop you in a shorter distance than straight skidding. Now ABS pumps the brakes very fast. A further improvement can be achieved by slow pumping. Why? The car will bounce up and down like anything. If you pump at the resonant frequency of the suspension, you can arrange always to brake when it is down. This gives you extra pressure and extra grip, so you can stop sooner. This is what I understand by the phrase "cadence braking". But as several people have pointed out, the BIG advantage of ABS is extra control. Practice of ABS. ---------------- I will admit that I used to think as Tony does - ABS is undesirable because it fails in a nasty way. However, having driven cars with and without ABS, my opinion has changed. Please note that this is only an opinion. You are welcome to think differently. If you have skid training (I don't, but would like to one day), you perhaps ought to think differently. I don't know. 1. Emergency stop doesn't require pumping as a matter of course. In my 1972 Marcos it is very seldom that I skid and have to reapply brakes. 2. Therefore the technique in most situations is the same whether you have ABS or not: If you start skidding, pump. But not until. 3. As I said in the argument on earth leakage protection, a safety device is to get you out of trouble not into it. ABS is no excuse for driving too fast or too close. 4. There are situations in which ABS if it works can save you when no amount of braking technique from the driver without it can. Emergency stop on a corner springs to mind (see below). It is amazing how far a car goes between applications of the brake pedal. At 60mph, in one second you travel 88 feet. Pumping brakes quite fast, your skids will be 20 feet long. Pumping at a more humanly achievable rate, probably nearer 40 feet. This is quite far enough to leave the road and hit a tree. (Last month emergency stop on a corner sprang rather forcibly to more than just my mind. Car: dead. Diver: minor whiplash and bruising to joints of right leg. Without ABS I am still confident that, had I been able to go in a straight line, I would have stopped safely. With it, I wouldn't have hit the tree. With failed ABS I would be no worse off than I am now.) 5. I now believe that on balance, ABS does more good than harm. To me, that is. 6. But I refuse to have an airbag in my car! I don't like to carry explosives at the best of times, and an accident is hardly the best of times. (Seriously, airbags are generally inflated by an explosive that generates a lot of gas. Sometimes it goes off when you are not crashing. If the airbag has a pinhole leak, escaping gas can cause serious injuries (fortunately I wear glasses when driving)). Seat belts and crumple zones are quite sufficient when used properly. Well, I've got it off my chest too. But boy, has the traffic on the list been high this last week! Philip. From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Apr 8 12:48:33 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: potholes Message-ID: <01BE81C6.7F02A4E0.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Thursday, April 08, 1999 6:16 AM, Charles E. Fox [SMTP:foxvideo@wincom.net] wrote: > > Did anyone catch the bit on ABC news last night about the use of old > computers to fill potholes? > I think some of our Windsor potholes would require at least a mini. > > Regards Here's the story: http://www.cnn.com/NATURE/9904/07/computers.potholes.ap/ Steve Robertson From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 8 12:50:01 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies Message-ID: <004101be81e8$4ea9cfe0$0100c0a8@fuj03> 8" drives typically spun all the time, as their motors were AC types. If your 5-1/4" drive spins all the time, something's wrong. They had a nMOTOR_ON signal which you can monitor to determine whether it's a defective drive or a bunged-up driver. One important reason for the popularity of the smaller drives over the AC-powered 8" types was noise. If the drive is running all the time, clearly there's something wrong. It could be in the jumpering of the drive or in the controller firmware. It could even be a jumper option on the controller. You'll ruin lots of floppies in a drive which doesn't stop and which doesn't unload its heads. It's easy to monitor the control signals. If the controller tells the disk drive to keep spinning, you need to "fix" the BIOS code. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 9:13 AM Subject: Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies >At 09:43 PM 4/7/99 -0700, you wrote: > >People today don't realize that the old >>systems used a floppy like present systems use a hard drive, almost all the >>time, which is a heck of a lot of wear for a contact media. > > I used to work for Burroughs and they had a computer that used 8" >floppys that spun continously. Burroughs said to replace the disks every >100 hours. I have no idea how long they would actually run before failing. > Does anyone know? I have a CPM machine that spins it's 5 1/4" disk >continously but I haven't run it enough for a disk to fail. > > Joe >> >> > From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 8 13:59:16 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives In-Reply-To: <002a01be81c9$8139a1c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: >Since new floppy drives cost about $25 including shipment, it's difficult to >justify repairing them. This is frustrating for people like you who have >drives for which replacements are not readily available for $20 or so. > >Your experience with sloppy workmanship gives clear indication that $10 per >hour is not enough to pay a competent technician. The occasional look >inside should give you good indication of why one who can't spend more than >15 minutes' time fixing a $20 drive, can't get the job done. These devices >must be considered "throw-away" items by now. You've got to learn to >fix-em-yourself. A common situation for mac shops, or even more so for people using a mac in a sea of PC, is that little or no "official" support is available. When a floppy acts up, you call Bob in accounting and he stops by during his lunch hour. Old machines, or obviously broken machines turn into parts donors. This is mostly what I have noticed, drives that have been swapped around from mac to mac (only two styles were used, but with maybe half a dozen different carriers). I just may get some of this Blue shower, and try on fixing a batch. I am already starting to notice the first signs of "learning" more than I desire. ;) From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 8 14:05:04 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives In-Reply-To: <002a01be81c9$8139a1c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Since new floppy drives cost about $25 including shipment, it's difficult to > justify repairing them. This is frustrating for people like you who have > drives for which replacements are not readily available for $20 or so. What? What if you don't have $25 laying around, or $25 * 12 = $300 as Mike says is his current number of broken drives. You don't just go and pull $25 out of your pocket everytime a drive breaks. The last I checked money still doesn't grow in the pasture (believe me, I check every morning). > Your experience with sloppy workmanship gives clear indication that $10 per > hour is not enough to pay a competent technician. The occasional look > inside should give you good indication of why one who can't spend more than > 15 minutes' time fixing a $20 drive, can't get the job done. These devices > must be considered "throw-away" items by now. You've got to learn to > fix-em-yourself. Well, exactly. That's why its called a hobby. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 8 15:15:59 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies In-Reply-To: <004101be81e8$4ea9cfe0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990408151559.2797eaf4@intellistar.net> Dick, I don't know if they're supposed to run all the time or not, but both drives do it so I don't think it's a problem in the drives. A lot of the older drives had jumpers to cause them to run continously. I guess it saved the time needed to spin the drive up to speed. Several people have said that they have systems with 5 1/4" drives that spin all the time so it may be normal. Allison says that her 8" drives have run thousands of hours without problems so I hope it's not a problem. Joe At 11:50 AM 4/8/99 -0600, you wrote: >8" drives typically spun all the time, as their motors were AC types. If >your 5-1/4" drive spins all the time, something's wrong. They had a >nMOTOR_ON signal which you can monitor to determine whether it's a defective >drive or a bunged-up driver. One important reason for the popularity of the >smaller drives over the AC-powered 8" types was noise. If the drive is >running all the time, clearly there's something wrong. It could be in the >jumpering of the drive or in the controller firmware. It could even be a >jumper option on the controller. You'll ruin lots of floppies in a drive >which doesn't stop and which doesn't unload its heads. It's easy to monitor >the control signals. If the controller tells the disk drive to keep >spinning, you need to "fix" the BIOS code. > >Dick >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 9:13 AM >Subject: Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies > > >>At 09:43 PM 4/7/99 -0700, you wrote: >> >>People today don't realize that the old >>>systems used a floppy like present systems use a hard drive, almost all >the >>>time, which is a heck of a lot of wear for a contact media. >> >> I used to work for Burroughs and they had a computer that used 8" >>floppys that spun continously. Burroughs said to replace the disks every >>100 hours. I have no idea how long they would actually run before failing. >> Does anyone know? I have a CPM machine that spins it's 5 1/4" disk >>continously but I haven't run it enough for a disk to fail. >> >> Joe >>> >>> >> > > From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 8 14:28:20 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: 2901s was Re: Rotting away In-Reply-To: <19990408152601.25882.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:26:01 -0700 (PDT)) References: <19990408152601.25882.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <19990408192820.21701.qmail@brouhaha.com> Ethan wrote: > Any of the Atari vector machines are likely to have 2901's as the core of > a math co-processor to manupulate those vectors faster than the little 6502 > ever could. My friend Tony is the Atari vector king; I've never owned one, > unfortunately. Hey, and don't forget me! :-) I wrote the simulator for the Red Baron/ Battlezone/Tempest mathbox, which is still in MAME to this day. I also wrote the first simulator for the vector generators (DVG and AVG), but those have largely been rewritten. A copy of the ancient simulator Hedley Rainnie and I wrote (back in 1991!) can be found at ftp://ftp.brouhaha.com/pub/eric/coinop_sim/vecsim.tgz It ran all of the Atari vector games except Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, and Quantum. Of course, the stuff in MAME now is better, but we didn't have 500 MHz Pentium II machines back then. From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 8 14:03:10 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990408104953.22971ef2@intellistar.net> References: Message-ID: > HP (sony made) floppy drives have the same problem. They stick part way >open and don't eject the disk. If you pull the disk out, you WILL rip the >top head off of a double sided drive. Never take a disk out or put a disk >into a partially open HP floppy drive. Take the drive out and clean the >old lube off so that it opens properly. This problem apparently has two stages, fix by cleaning, and waited to long and damaged the motor which now needs to be replaced. The notion of a "weak" motor is a bit hard for me to grasp, but I have run across several cases with motors and solenoids where it indeed seems to be true. From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 8 14:08:14 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives In-Reply-To: <96c80923.243e1f9e@aol.com> Message-ID: >agreed, but i'd only apply this throw away mindset to ordinary pc floppy >drives. mac suprdrives are hard to find and expensive. i've one now in my mac >IIx that's not reading any disks. apple drives are plentiful and cheap, but >i'd fix them as well since none are produced anymore, obviously. When you say not reading, is it; Fails to spin at all, so all discs are immediately rejected? Doesn't reliably read? My wet cleaning floppy often helps this case. I have a few diagnostic programs, and I think it is TechTool Pro that will do a full drive test, with a 0% to 100% rating that fairly accurately ranks condition of drives. A few of the refurb places sell drives using this rating, with a 90%+ drive fetching a 100% premium over just a working drive. From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 8 14:44:23 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies Message-ID: <000c01be81f8$34365100$0100c0a8@fuj03> Not all mini-floppy drives have the ability to load/unload the head. If yours doesn't, it's advisable to fix the spin-up/spin-down problem with either software or hardware, i.e. jumpers or the like. The decision to go ahead and wear down the emulsion of your floppy diskette was made when drives and media were common. That's no longer the case, and since you're into retrocomputing, the slower(oops, I mean "more realistic") it is, the better you'll like it, right??? The last time I checked (a long time ago) my CP/M-ulator ran at 6-7x the speed of the "real McCoy" so I doubt you're running the old hardware just to run those old programs. While it's true that 8" drives can run constantly without media or head damage they had head-load solenoids as opposed to a spring which loads the heads once the drive door is closed as the mini-floppies often do. The emulsion on a floppy diskette becomes increasingly abrasive as the emulsion ages and, not only will it dirty the heads by leaving whatever dust or other glutch is present on the diskette in the head gap, but it will polish and grind on your heads. If you want your heads worn and dirty, running them in constant contact with the media and spinning will do it just fine. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 1:21 PM Subject: Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies >Dick, > > I don't know if they're supposed to run all the time or not, but both >drives do it so I don't think it's a problem in the drives. A lot of the >older drives had jumpers to cause them to run continously. I guess it >saved the time needed to spin the drive up to speed. Several people have >said that they have systems with 5 1/4" drives that spin all the time so it >may be normal. Allison says that her 8" drives have run thousands of hours >without problems so I hope it's not a problem. > > Joe > >At 11:50 AM 4/8/99 -0600, you wrote: >>8" drives typically spun all the time, as their motors were AC types. If >>your 5-1/4" drive spins all the time, something's wrong. They had a >>nMOTOR_ON signal which you can monitor to determine whether it's a defective >>drive or a bunged-up driver. One important reason for the popularity of the >>smaller drives over the AC-powered 8" types was noise. If the drive is >>running all the time, clearly there's something wrong. It could be in the >>jumpering of the drive or in the controller firmware. It could even be a >>jumper option on the controller. You'll ruin lots of floppies in a drive >>which doesn't stop and which doesn't unload its heads. It's easy to monitor >>the control signals. If the controller tells the disk drive to keep >>spinning, you need to "fix" the BIOS code. >> >>Dick >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Joe >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >>Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 9:13 AM >>Subject: Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies >> >> >>>At 09:43 PM 4/7/99 -0700, you wrote: >>> >>>People today don't realize that the old >>>>systems used a floppy like present systems use a hard drive, almost all >>the >>>>time, which is a heck of a lot of wear for a contact media. >>> >>> I used to work for Burroughs and they had a computer that used 8" >>>floppys that spun continously. Burroughs said to replace the disks every >>>100 hours. I have no idea how long they would actually run before failing. >>> Does anyone know? I have a CPM machine that spins it's 5 1/4" disk >>>continously but I haven't run it enough for a disk to fail. >>> >>> Joe >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 8 14:58:10 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives Message-ID: <001701be81fa$213ff7c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> I'm with you on this one. I didn't make or wish it so. AlI did was state how things are. There ought to be a way to fix these things, but since their cheaper bretheren are available for the PC (throw-away) market, it's hard to get someone to fix them for less than a new one costs. Keep in mind that a guy who fixes them himself can do the job, but even an altruistic fellow indeed would rather spend $25 to replace a drive than spend half a day only to find he can't fix the $#@!! thing. Many of the drives to which I refer have only a switch, a couple of optical interrupters, and a single IC on board. . . . . . maybe a few resistors . . . . . They're just not made to repair. Now, if you save a few, perhaps a board swap can help, but be careful! Those high-density connectors attaching the FLEX to the board aren't made to be cycled more than once. They break! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 1:49 PM Subject: Re: Fooling with floppy drives >On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Since new floppy drives cost about $25 including shipment, it's difficult to >> justify repairing them. This is frustrating for people like you who have >> drives for which replacements are not readily available for $20 or so. > >What? What if you don't have $25 laying around, or $25 * 12 = $300 as >Mike says is his current number of broken drives. You don't just go and >pull $25 out of your pocket everytime a drive breaks. The last I checked >money still doesn't grow in the pasture (believe me, I check every >morning). > >> Your experience with sloppy workmanship gives clear indication that $10 per >> hour is not enough to pay a competent technician. The occasional look >> inside should give you good indication of why one who can't spend more than >> 15 minutes' time fixing a $20 drive, can't get the job done. These devices >> must be considered "throw-away" items by now. You've got to learn to >> fix-em-yourself. > >Well, exactly. That's why its called a hobby. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Apr 8 15:11:54 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives Message-ID: <6cb5a7d7.243e678a@aol.com> In a message dated 08/04/99 15:36:36 Eastern Daylight Time, mikeford@netwiz.net writes: << When you say not reading, is it; Fails to spin at all, so all discs are immediately rejected? Doesn't reliably read? My wet cleaning floppy often helps this case. I have a few diagnostic programs, and I think it is TechTool Pro that will do a full drive test, with a 0% to 100% rating that fairly accurately ranks condition of drives. A few of the refurb places sell drives using this rating, with a 90%+ drive fetching a 100% premium over just a working drive. >> well, my mac IIcx had a drive that wouldnot eject disks. the grease had gummed up so i used an aerosol cleaning product and cleaned all that out and used moly grease to fix the stickiness. i also ran a head cleaning disk in the drive for several minutes and amazingly got the drive reading disks again. my IIx will spit disks out ok but refuses to read known good mac formatted floppies. that was cleaned with a head cleaning disk as well but no improvement. unfortunately, the IIx only has one drive instead of two. I recently got a IIci (nice machine!) and it works great, but there seems to be a drive alignment problem. disks formatted on the cx wont always read right on the IIci. seems that i have to use one external floppy between both macs in order to get 800k disks to be read reliably. grrr. From sring at uslink.net Thu Apr 8 15:46:44 1999 From: sring at uslink.net (END USER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: sending you a book? Message-ID: <01be8200$e9d4c980$7757ddcc@enduser> I received this message and I do not know what it is about! Stephanie sring@uslink.net -----Original Message----- From: Derek Peschel To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 4:16 AM Subject: Re: sending you a book? >I asked you about a book I got for you; you seemed interested but I still >want to confirm. Also I need your postal address. > >-- Derek > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Apr 8 15:57:19 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Floppy Drive operation (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <004101be81e8$4ea9cfe0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <4.1.19990408134447.03d2f1b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 11:50 AM 4/8/99 -0600, Someone wrote: >8" drives typically spun all the time, as their motors were AC types. If >your 5-1/4" drive spins all the time, something's wrong. As in any good discussion this information is insufficient and perhaps a bit misleading. It is true, the most 8" drives ran the motor all the time *AND* they "loaded" the heads when they read or wrote. The only time the drive suffered wear was when the heads were loaded. On some old IBM 8" drives from a 370 I believe there was a counter that counted seconds of "head loaded" time. When it got to about 28 hrs (over 99,999 seconds) the drive was supposed to be returned to have the heads refurbished. Early 5.25" drives were similar, but "cheap" 5.25" drives figured they could get away with leaving the heads on the drives and then just spinning the motor when they were reading or writing. This gives a cheaper mechanism at the cost of slower access times. The "high end" TEAC drives continued to keep the motor running and only load the heads on reads and writes. The defining characteristic of "floppy" disks is head/media contact. Designed to operate in this way made them a good compromise between the low cost of tape and the random access of disks. I believe I even have an early IBM POPs manual that refers to them as DiscTape rather than a "Floppy Disc" --Chuck From at258 at osfn.org Thu Apr 8 16:11:42 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Several things In-Reply-To: <8025674D.0061B67B.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: > ABS. > ==== > > To try and keep this on topic, how did Ferguson do ABS in the early 1970s? I > don't believe they would have used a microprocessor. I'd guess at an analogue > computer, probably not even electronic. Would this be less frightening to >Tony. Was this the Jenson FFS? > 5. I now believe that on balance, ABS does more good than harm. To me, that > is. I wonder what Nuvolari would have thought of it? M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Apr 8 16:32:56 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives Message-ID: <01BE81E5.D7A87D30.steverob@hotoffice.com> > I recently got a IIci (nice machine!) and it works great, but there seems to be > a drive alignment problem. disks formatted on the cx wont always read right > on the IIci. seems that i have to use one external floppy between both macs > in order to get 800k disks to be read reliably. grrr. > To me, that is the most frustrating problem. I've got drives that only work with certain disks, disks that only work with certain drives, drives that only format certain densities. Grrr... I guess it could be that both components (disk and drive) are slightly out of tolerance. The end result is, I've got a stack of drives and don't really know if they're good or not. I've had some success by just cleaning the slides and positioning mechanisms. The lubricants really attract the dust and will inhibit movement of the heads. I generally like to use alcohol or another common agent to remove the gunk. Blue Rain works great but, is kinda expensive. You have to be careful not to wash all the lubricant out of the servo bushings. Without any lubrication, they can wear out pretty fast. Especially the spindle motors. I generally use a fine machine oil to lubricate the moving parts. You can also use a very thin coat of vasoline. At least it stays where you put it. I've never used the DYSAN alignment disks and would be really interested to learn more about them. How effective are they? What other tools do you need? How much do they cost? Steve Robertson - From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Apr 8 16:58:50 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Classic Adventures Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990408115036.0b1fc2f8@ricochet.net> I was doing a bit of research and came across an interesting page: http://www.lysator.liu.se/adventure/ lists adventure games for various computers, including machines like the PDP series and the much, much better (and far too infrequently mentioned) HP 3000. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From clintw at colorado.cirrus.com Thu Apr 8 17:28:24 1999 From: clintw at colorado.cirrus.com (Clint Wolff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Classic Adventures Message-ID: <199904082228.QAA03490@ws2044.colorado.cirrus.com> > > I was doing a bit of research and came across an interesting page: > > http://www.lysator.liu.se/adventure/ > > lists adventure games for various computers, including machines like the > PDP series and the much, much better (and far too infrequently mentioned) > HP 3000. 8^) > > Ahhh.... Adventure.... All the plugh's and plovers and xyzzy's you could shake a stick (of dynamite) at.... Does anyone remember a version that: If you went down from the hall of the Mt. king, you were in a room with a vault door. If you tried to apply any of the standard magic words (xyzzy etc) the door would fuse shut and something (a blob? a djinn?) would show up several turns later, chase you down, and kill you? It ran on a CPM machine in the early 80's. clint From elvey at hal.com Thu Apr 8 17:45:38 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives In-Reply-To: <01BE81E5.D7A87D30.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <199904082245.PAA17937@civic.hal.com> Steve Robertson wrote: > > I've never used the DYSAN alignment disks and would be really interested to > learn more about them. > > How effective are they? > What other tools do you need? > How much do they cost? Hi I've used alignment disks. You need an oscilloscope to use them. You also need to write a low level driver to keep the system from freaking when doing the actual alignment check. They record two signals on the disk that are 1/2 track above and below the normal track position ( I don't recall what track you select but as I recall, it is about half way up the disk ). The two signals are exactly 1 cycle per revolution of the disk different in frequency. You look on your oscilloscope at the analog signal that comes out of the read amplifier and adjust for what is call a cats-eye pattern. If the track alignment is right on, you'll have equal height signals from the first half of the revolution as the second half ( sync of the index pulse ). They also include a constant amplitude track. This is used to look for contact problems of the disk/head. One another track they usually have several different frequency tones recorded. These are used to check the band pass of the drive. Other than the cats-eye pattern, there is usually little that you can adjust on a finished drive. The cats-eye pattern can be used to fine tune the stepper position. There are usually some slotted screws someplace that allow slight changes in the rotation of the stepper. One does have to check the proper operation of the track zero sensor after this adjustment because there is interaction. As for price??? I bought the one I have at a surplus shop for $1. Dwight From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Apr 8 18:26:09 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: vacuum tube circuits In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Apr 8, 1999 03:12:17 am" Message-ID: <199904082326.XAA20953@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > > I saw a hardcover book from 1957 at the used bookstore, that discussed > > digital computer circuits, and had chapters on vacuum tube logic circuits, > > corememory circuits, some transistor circuits, etc. If this is something > > that someone here is dieing to have, perhaps because you're designing > > a vacuum tube computer circuit, just let me know and i'll try to get it > > before someone else does ;) > > In fact, my plan is to build a tube computer someday soon. What was the > title of the book, and how much was it selling for? > Well, several people have asked about this book. Its "Digital Computer components & circuits" by R. K. Richards, 1957, reprinted 1958. He says its a companion book to his "arithmetic Operations in Digital Computers", which the bookstore also has, but thats just a general boolean-logic type of book. Anyways, the used bookstore wants $15 for it. Perhaps I should see about photocopying this. chapters: 1 History & Introduction 2 Diode switching circuits 3 Vacuum tube systems of circuit logic 4 Transistor systems of circuit logic 5 magnetic core systems of circuit logic 6 Large capacity storage: non-magnetic devices 7 Storage on a magnetic surface 8 Magnetic core storage 9 Circuits and tubes for decimal counting 10 Miscellaneous components and circuits 11 Analog-to-digital and digital-to-analog converters -Lawrence LeMay From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Apr 8 19:12:21 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: looking for a multibus memory card Message-ID: <199904090012.AAA21029@thorin.cs.umn.edu> If anyone has a 4 meg multibus memory card that they would consider parting with, I could sure use one in my old sun workstation. -Lawrence LeMay From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 8 19:26:46 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 8, 99 03:16:47 am Message-ID: <199904090026.RAA25122@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 811 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990408/d8efed4b/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 8 19:28:38 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <004001be817d$61058780$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 7, 99 11:05:10 pm Message-ID: <199904090028.RAA25218@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1188 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990408/454a22cc/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 8 19:31:58 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 Message-ID: <990408203159.20c000de@trailing-edge.com> ::Basically, yes. The track and sector are stored in the sector header of ::each sector, among other data. >In fact, most floppy disk systems work that way. Commodore GCR does that. >So does MFM, doesn't it? I suspect when you say "MFM" you mean "all the soft-sectored data storage schemes descended from the original IBM 3740 (FM) standard", in which case you're right. There are a few oddball hard-sectored drives that don't have any header at all on the data in each sector - hardware counters in the drive controller keep track of this stuff. Of course, once your head stepper starts stalling or your index sensor gets dusty, all sorts of nasty things happen with this scheme. And, even more rare, are some embedded-servo floppy disk systems where the location on disk is encoded in special formatting that cannot, in any reasonable way, be called a "sector header". -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 8 20:16:13 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives Message-ID: <001a01be8226$9fee1120$0100c0a8@fuj03> There are also the "digital" alignment diskettes. These have certain forms of misalignment intentionally written to certain tracks in a certain way. Together with appropriate software, you can ostensibly detect, quantify, and correct (if you know how and feel you can do it) whatever defects it finds. I've read about this but never got around to trying it. I don't know anyone who's tried it, so I can't even ask the relevant questions. Dysan made a whole series of such digital diagnostic diskettes, as they were called, for various types of disk drives. Unfortunately, they were priced such that it was cheaper to buy a new drive than to buy one of these and the software and fix it yourself. IIRC the price would have crossed over at about 50 drives, not counting the labor savings, since I provided that. The analog alignment process is quite straightforward, but not something I want to do again. Moving the heads back and forth, then tightening the screw holding the lead screw/motor in a fixed position only to have to repeat the process because the changing stresses from tightening things down has caused them to move . . . UGH! . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 4:53 PM Subject: RE[2]: Fooling with floppy drives >Steve Robertson wrote: >> >> I've never used the DYSAN alignment disks and would be really interested to >> learn more about them. >> >> How effective are they? >> What other tools do you need? >> How much do they cost? > >Hi > I've used alignment disks. You need an oscilloscope >to use them. You also need to write a low level >driver to keep the system from freaking when doing >the actual alignment check. They record two signals >on the disk that are 1/2 track above and below the >normal track position ( I don't recall what track you >select but as I recall, it is about half way up >the disk ). The two signals are exactly 1 cycle >per revolution of the disk different in frequency. >You look on your oscilloscope at the analog signal >that comes out of the read amplifier and adjust >for what is call a cats-eye pattern. If the track >alignment is right on, you'll have equal height >signals from the first half of the revolution >as the second half ( sync of the index pulse ). > They also include a constant amplitude track. This >is used to look for contact problems of the disk/head. >One another track they usually have several different >frequency tones recorded. These are used to check the >band pass of the drive. > Other than the cats-eye pattern, there is usually little >that you can adjust on a finished drive. The cats-eye >pattern can be used to fine tune the stepper position. >There are usually some slotted screws someplace that allow >slight changes in the rotation of the stepper. One does >have to check the proper operation of the track zero >sensor after this adjustment because there is interaction. > As for price??? I bought the one I have at a surplus >shop for $1. >Dwight > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 8 20:43:24 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 Message-ID: <002b01be822a$7003ff20$0100c0a8@fuj03> Let's not confuse things here. Today, most disks use either a servo track on an unused surface or they use embedded servo written right in with the data they're storing. That certainly helps with speed control as well as with positioning. They now use voice-coil actuators rather than steppers, and therefore can make quite subtle adjustments in head-stack position depending on what is read. Back in the early days, that wasn't so. In that sense, it's fair to say that Apple was somewhat forward in their thinking. Normally they only thought inward, hence, they did this because it saved them money. FM, MFM, RLL including GCR, are simply modulation schemes. They characterize how the data is actually written on the track, but really aren't involved in decoding the position when a track is being found. The data format, however, customarily has extensive information allowing the system to verify the current position of the head on the medium. A typical sort of format layout would have a sync field, followed by an address mark (a framing-sync character sort-of like the unique word used in HDLC and other protocols) to tell the controller what's next, then a position indicator data field to tell the system the current head and sector information, then a CRC, followed by another sync field containing a write splice (write turn-on gap) followed by a data address mark followed by the data and its CRC and yet another sync field containing yet another write splice(write turn-off gap). There are variations on this theme, but that's basically what's there. The basic format is written in the "low-level" format process while the data fields are written in the "high-level" format. On old drives, the drive's internals don't care about the data. They just transfer it. Newer drives, since they have to fiddle with the data in order to set the data rate, manipulate the heads, buffer the data, correct the errors, etc. care very much about and involve themselves greatly with the media content. Hence, they rely less on hardware specifically in place to yield position information. Floppy drives, AFAIK, don't bother with this, though the ZIP and LS-120 drives may very well do so. They have a track-zero detector, and, normally, that's what's used by the system to find track-00. Apple didn't even use one of those because they could move the heads until it seemed reasonable for one reason or another to assume track zero had been reached, perhaps by reading where they were and then making an adjustment, or perhaps by moving the head in one direction or the other until it had to be at the limit. Then they could step inward until data was encountered, and could be interpreted. Someone else will have to elucidate on that, however, because although I know a fair amount about what they might have done, I don't actually know what they did. How about it Eric? How dit they manage a recal? One interesting thing about the Apple GCR modulation format is that it essentially was a "double-density" technique. It was cleverly implemented in a way which saved on hardware, capitalized on software's ability to exploit the time window normally spent waiting for a transfer, and, especially, didn't wed them to one or another FDC chip maker. Those IC's cost plenty back then. This was at a time when Radio Shack still stayed with single-density, and Apple exceeded their capacity easily. Radio Shack was the only major competitor Apple had. This was a real coup! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 6:32 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 >::> How does this work? Do you mean that the disk drive has no internal means >::> of judging whether or not it's on the right track and that this is >::> determined by the contents of the disk? >:: >::Basically, yes. The track and sector are stored in the sector header of >::each sector, among other data. > >In fact, most floppy disk systems work that way. Commodore GCR does that. >So does MFM, doesn't it? > >-- >-------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- >Cameron Kaiser Database Programmer/Administrative Computing >Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 >ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 >-- FORTUNE: You will feel gypped by this fortune. ----------------------------- From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 8 20:55:42 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Request for Assistance: Houston, Texas Message-ID: Is anywhere here in or near Houston? I need someone to retrieve and ship a rather large set of items (non-computer related) to California for me. I'll make it worth your while of course. Please contact me privately. Thanks! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 8 21:28:36 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: bringing up an 8f... Message-ID: <199904090228.AA26654@world.std.com> Well folks, The 8F is now up and basically healthy. The stuck bit was a bad 74L54 that had a stuck input. Shame the replacement I have is a year older than the machine! I ran one program that will execute on a DECMATE but the result is not visible! ;) / TEST PROGRAM FOR pdp-8f / inchworm view with pannel switch set to Acc (8E/F/M) / 0200 *0200 / start address 0200 7200 START, CLA /CLEAR ACC 0201 1211 TAD WORM /PUT WORM CHARACTER IN ACC 0202 7004 MAIN, RAL / PUSH THE WORM LEFT 0203 7000 DELAY, NOP 0204 7000 NOP 0205 2212 ISZ DELCNT /DELAY 4096 (~20MS) INNER 0206 5203 JMP DELAY 0207 5202 JMP MAIN 0210 7402 HLT 0211 0007 WORM, 0017 / FOUR BIT LONG INCH WORM 0212 0000 DELCNT, 0000 / INSIDE LOOP COUNT 0213 $ Next step is to get the terminal interface in and try it aand also verify all of CORE as all I've checked is most of 00200, page 0 and random words. Allison From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 8 21:37:57 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives References: <01BE81E5.D7A87D30.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <370D6805.1D0F71B1@rain.org> Steve Robertson wrote: > > > I've never used the DYSAN alignment disks and would be really interested to > learn more about them. > > How effective are they? > What other tools do you need? > How much do they cost? While I have several analog alignment disks, I have yet to try and align a disk drive using one. I typically use a program called QAFLOPPY that utilizes a digital alignment disk, and as such no scope is needed. Can't recall the name of the software company but they are the same ones that published QSPlus. Just for clarification, we are talking IBM and IBM compatable PC computers here. I have the digital alignment disks for 360K, 1.2 MB, and the 3 1/2" drives, and they work very well. It makes for a very quick way of checking a drives alignment, and since the typical out-of-alignment drive is in the radial direction, it is also fairly fast and easy to align a drive when necessary. The alignment disks cost around $50 each (or at least did when I got mine.) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 8 19:37:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Q-bus pinout In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990407223654.009ed470@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 7, 99 10:38:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1150 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/158d4257/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 8 19:20:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies In-Reply-To: <004201be815c$9026f880$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 7, 99 07:09:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2790 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/c5721ac9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 8 20:30:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Apr 8, 99 01:21:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2513 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/3e98e2c6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 8 21:03:42 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives In-Reply-To: <001701be81fa$213ff7c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 8, 99 01:58:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2839 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/e1131f0b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 8 20:41:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Apr 8, 99 08:28:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 890 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/e8c5b1d1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 8 19:12:57 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Apple GCR In-Reply-To: <990407210411.202000ef@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Apr 7, 99 09:04:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 861 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/cca003bb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 8 21:10:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives In-Reply-To: <01BE81E5.D7A87D30.steverob@hotoffice.com> from "Steve Robertson" at Apr 8, 99 05:32:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1868 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/0de1f70a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 8 20:45:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: 2901s was Re: Rotting away In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990408104824.00960370@texas.net> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Apr 8, 99 10:48:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 595 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/8cbc7e9c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 8 20:52:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Several things In-Reply-To: <8025674D.0061B67B.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Apr 8, 99 06:40:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1800 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/50b69dd3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 8 20:54:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Apr 8, 99 12:03:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 617 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/c3654b1f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 8 21:48:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives In-Reply-To: <001a01be8226$9fee1120$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 8, 99 07:16:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1808 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/f3ff794d/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 8 21:56:01 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 Message-ID: <990408225601.20c000de@trailing-edge.com> >with positioning. They now use voice-coil actuators rather than steppers, >and therefore can make quite subtle adjustments in head-stack position >depending on what is read. Back in the early days, that wasn't so. Actually, Persci floppy drives in 1976 or so were voice-coil (and quite a pain to maintain, even then - these days the glue that holds the optical graticules in place is often failing, and gluing and realigning from scratch is even harder, even with all the special Persci realignment jigs and electronic panels.) And a common modification to these drives (at least for folks like me who specialize in data recovery) is software-controlled offsets from the normal track positioning, something that does use the drive's ability to do fine positioning. >One interesting thing about the Apple GCR modulation format is that it >essentially was a "double-density" technique. Eric said the same thing, and I disagree with you both. To me (and all the tech pubs I've read) the density is how many flux transitions you can do per second (or revolution). GCR is a way of getting more real data with the same number of flux transitions. Apple GCR drives use single-density heads and single density data rates, a considerable cost saving factor in 1977. >cost plenty back then. This was at a time when Radio Shack still stayed >with single-density, and Apple exceeded their capacity easily. While using cheap single-density drives! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Apr 8 22:34:01 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Rotting away In-Reply-To: <19990408100217.8116.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990408233401.00a28870@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Ethan Dicks had spoken clearly: >Every once in a while, I still go to video-game auctions. It is possible to >pick up full-sized games for under $100 if you don't want the hottest games. >PacMac, Galaga and other classics are still available, but for big bucks. Where? I'd like to pick up a video game (over 10 years old -- something like "Time Pilot" or somesuch, so this *is* on topic... ;-), but where I live nothing like that is available. Also, is there a web (or other) reference as to what games used which processors? I think several games used the Moto6809, and if I had my druthers, I'd get a game based on that processor, as it's my favo[u]ite. Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Apr 8 22:33:21 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: WTB: TRIMM DA523-331 Message-ID: <370D7501.890744F1@idirect.com> I am not positive if this is the correct part number. Have you ever seen a PDP-11/34 top loading rack mounted box? About the same size! Also top loading. About 10 1/4" high and a 19" rack. BUT, this is for a Qbus back plane with at least 10 slots (there could be as many as 16). And I suspect that the first 3 slots may be ABCD like the BA23 box and the rest are AB/AB also like the BA23 box. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Apr 8 23:02:12 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Q-bus pinout In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990407223654.009ed470@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990408205626.0092a800@mcmanis.com> At 01:37 AM 4/9/99 +0100, you wrote: >Surely an extender card simply links the edge fingers at one end of the >board to the socket at the other. It shouldn't be bus-specific. As it turns out, this one is a UNIBUS extender and one of its features is that it connects the ground pins to an internal ground plane in the card. Unfortunately those aren't the ground pins on Q or OMNIBUS so it only works in a UNIBUS machine. AA2,AC2, and AP1 are all connected together on the internal ground plane. As are the BA2, BC2, and BP1, etc. >I have used the same quad-height extender for SPCs, RK07 cards, Q-bus >cards, Omnibus cards, etc. No problems. I guess I need to find such a card. >I have the schematic. The pins of the 2 output connectors (J3 and J4) are >simply wired in parallel, so if one works and the other doesn't, it must >be a broken connection somewhere. Shouldn't be hard to check. Hmmm, curious, the +5V on the second back plane is like 1.5v (and no obvious signs of smoke that would be apparent if something were shorting it out back there) I'll check the connectors as they are pretty easy to get at. --Chuck From lundo at interport.net Thu Apr 8 23:15:17 1999 From: lundo at interport.net (Robert Lund) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: Microsoft is about to arrest me! Message-ID: <9904099236.AA923630805@mail.postperfect.com> Oh, god! Does Lord Gates now even have his own police force?? I think their arrest powers would have to be severely limited - though you might have a long Supreme Court battle ahead of you to get out of MS Jail. -- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Robert Lund | "So many good ones, and so many bad ones; + + lundo@interport.net | that's what you get for trying." + + New York City | Dutch Schultz, last words + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From gram at cnct.com Thu Apr 8 23:37:30 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:56 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Apr 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > Actually there are two points. One is track 000 and the other is the > innermost (for sa400 35-40 tracks later). Only track 000 was sensored > save for apple didn't use that either. Apple cut the interface to the > minimim number of wires and signals possible and made up the difference > with software, rather clever in my mind. During the design phase, Woz had more time than money, chips cost money and software only cost time. Remember that he _wanted_ to use the 8080 but the 6502 cost only a tenth the price. (Imagine what the Apple might have been like with a decent CPU from the start). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From jlewczyk at his.com Thu Apr 8 23:49:36 1999 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Mark-8 Computer - Alive and Ticking! Message-ID: <000201be8244$5e78bab0$013da8c0@Corellian> Late in Februrary I pulled out of a corner of my workshop a box containing my old Mark-8 computer, the one whose construction was the subject of the cover of Radio Electronics magazine in July 1974. I hadn't looked at in over 22 years! Ah, the memories... When I first read the RE issue, I was in no position financially to purchase anything but the plans ($5 and a SASE, IIRC), being a poor college student (of computer science). It was not until the fall of 1976 that I was able to buy an already constructed Mark-8 from someone who was selling it because he was upgrading (buying a newer microcomputer). I don't know who the original owner was, as the computer was bought by a third party for me. It was astounding to me that I owned my own computer! I proceeded to experiment with it for weeks, hand assembling programs and then keying them in through the front panel! But entering the code through the front panel switches got old real quick, and I endevored to design and build an "octal keyboard and display" for it. The original "backplane" made working on any individual board a real problem: you had to "fan out" the boards to get at the inside ones. So I attempted to make a backplane out of 100-pin wire wrap sockets and bolting edge connectors removed from surplus boards onto the edges of the six Mark-8 circuit boards. After all the work of rewiring the boards with their new edge connectors and wiring the backplane, and then building a new octal front panel board, the computer didn't work at all. (Surprise! ;-) After some time trying to debug it with just a VOM, I abandoned the whole project because I did not have access to the tools (triggered 'scope, logic analyzer, etc.) that I realized I would need to reasonably debug it. Of course there were some great new microcomputers available that were faster and easier to use and program. I bought a KIM-1 and never looked back. Until now. So, I have been attempting to restore the Mark-8 to as close to original condition as possible, which of course includes making it work! ;-). I am pleased to announce that I've been successfull and I'm again the proud owner of a working, .5MHZ computing colossus! I've removed the attempt at a "backplane" and restored it to as close as possible to the origional condition. Originally the computer came with 1K ram, composed of 32 * 256 bit sram chips (Intel 1101A and equivilents). I was dissapointed when I noticed that 1 of the ram chips was missing (I believe it failed, and I threw it out and never replaced it). After getting the system to run with a minimum of 256 bytes, I used memory test routines to check out the remaining memories. I found many more failures, which leaves me with 26 working memory chips. I'm trying to locate more 1101A, so that I'll have enough for 1K and a few spare ones too. Anyone out there have any 1101A or equivilent? (256 bit, pmos, 16 pin package +5V, -9V supply). Another problem I had was a missing 8263 chip (Signetics dual 3-to-1 multiplexor) on the input mux board. I cannot remember why that chip was gone, as the computer certainly wouldn't run at all without it. I probably had removed it to test it, then lost it. I've found that the 8263 chip is impossible to find and have subsequently replaced it with some 74XX chips. I didn't have the data sheet, so I deduced its function by examining the circuit. Only later did I realize that it had inverting outputs, requiring a third chip (a 7404) to complete the replacement circuitry. If anybody out there has an 8263 chip, I'd love to install it an get rid of the replacement circuity. During debugging, I found and replaced three other bad chips, all dealing with the "bus" that I had tried to replace. The other problems were a coupld of solder bridges and various broken connections, especially on the "back plane", which gets flexed every time you fan open the boards in order to access components on them. But the bottom line is.. IT WORKS!!!! And I'm having a great time messing with it. Now what? In the short term, I'm installing the Mark-8 in an appropriate enclosure with a modern switching power supply and fan. I plan on adding an EPROM and UART to it. The EPROM will contain a bootstrap routine for performing a memory check and a "monitor" routine allowing upload from the UART. I want the UART and EPROM to be "vintage" parts (like the AY-3-1013 or COM 2052 UARTs, and 1702A EPROMs. Anyone out there capable of burning a 1702A (or two) for me? I also plan on using a cross-assembler or cross-compiler to write routines for the Mark-8. I'm looking for Intel's PL/M cross compiler and cross-assembler for the 8008. Apparently there also was an 8008 similator. Intel has been suprisingly helpful in reproducing old manuals for the 8008, but the source code for these old tools, THOSE are hard to find. All were written in Fortran, and I understand that Gary Kildall wrote the CP/M compiler. I figure that if I can get the sources, I could port them to the PC. Anybody out there have these old software tools? I also heard that there was a BASIC language for the 8008. Any help with that? Anyone out there have a Mark-8? - John Lewczyk - IO Consulting - 401 Queens Row Street - Herndon, Virginia 20170-3131 - jlewczyk@his.com From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Fri Apr 9 00:17:56 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Oops! Message-ID: <199904090517.BAA07895@platy.cs.unc.edu> Due to some kind of editing error, the Classic Computer Rescue list has just the last few words of an entry from someone in New Hampshire. The same problem exists in my backup copy as of about a week ago, and there is no such entry at all in the backup from several months ago. (Yes, I know, I should keep this in RCS. I should do a lot of things.) If your hunting grounds are Southern New Hampshire ("about an hour north of Boston"), please take a moment to send me your new entry. I'll try really hard not to mess it up again! That URL again: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/ccrs_list.html Operators are standing by. :-) Thanks, Bill. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 9 00:21:15 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies Message-ID: <000a01be8248$dee8af80$0100c0a8@fuj03> I don't feel it necessary to defend what was an obvious memory failure. Eric Smith (much younger than I, and an Apple-owner, unlike me at the time, hence more likely to have paid close attention to the discussion because it affected him and his interests) has already pointed out that I must have been suffering from "old-timer's disease" when coughing up the account of those discussions, though I've corroborated the vague recollection with another old-timer who was there at the time as well, but who also was not an Apple-owner at the time. Since the time of these discussions, I've had occasion to purchase, for a pre-defined purpose, several Apple-II's, some of the wreckage of which and one (maybe more) functional unit of which is serving as a doorstop or spacer between shelves, or some such function. I've nonetheless NEVER looked inside an Apple disk drive, nor have I pondered the schematics beyond noticing that there were such things among the paperwork we got with the half-dozen or so of these units. I never even got particularly familiar with them. I'm certainly not an expert on Apple's hardware, software, or anything else about them. I merely was attempting to recount what I seemed to recall about a specific discussion I witnessed. Clearly the passage of some 20+ years has muddled my recollection. As for the tristate multiplexers, that was an error probably influenced by the fact I'd just plugged a half dozen of them in to three S-100 memory boards I'm giving to some guy in Minnesota who offered me something for them, so I populated them with the requisite IC's, including the 'S257's. I just looked back at the emails I've received in the past month, and couldn't find the specific reference to the part in question, but I must have slipped a couple of numbers in the course of replying to the email in which this subject came up. If they are, indeed, '259's, then they are, as you suggest, addressable latches. Now, I'll hapily accept responsibility for having introduced some error into the discussion of this topic. I guess I'm just going soft in the head. . . That's clearly evidenced in the amount of time I've spent on the discussion of Apple products. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 8:48 PM Subject: Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies >> >> Let me qualify this, first of all, with two bits of fact . . . > >I'll also post some facts. Actually, I'm suprised that nobody else has >done what I've just done, and looked at (a) the Disk II circuit diagrams >and (b) an actual Disk II. Neither are particularly rare. > >> (2) - I remember lengthy discussions among those members of the Denver Area >> 6502-Users' Group who were presumably qualified to discuss the intricacies >> of the internals of APPLE's disk I/O routines at a level I neither knew nor >> cared about, beyond the superficial details I gleaned from the several and >> varied sessions discussing that set of details. Now, I attended these >> weekely and typically 4-hour long meetings for several years, and KNOW the >> guys who were hashing out the details of the hardware and software in >> question knew what they were talking about, so I accept that as fact. If >> it wasn't true, no harm done, but I doubt that was the case. These fellows > >If they claimed that the positioner was a normal DC motor and not a >stepper, then I'm afraid they didn't know what they were talking about. > >Every Disk II that I have ever seen (and I've been working on them for >some 20 years or so) has a stepper as the head positioner. The circuits >show this, with a '259 addressable latch on the controller card to >provide the drive signals and a ULN2003 on the 'analog board' to drive >the windings. > >I'll believe that a drive with a DC motor positioner exists when somebody >shows me one in operation, or provides reasonable evidence (schematics, >software to drive it) that it exists. > >> The scheme with the tristate multiplexers came later, I believe, than the > >What tri-state multiplexers? I can't find a tri-state multiplexer in any >part of the Disk II. > >> was among them. Having said that, I would point out that, given a software >> scheme sequenced the stepper, it is just as possible that one could have >> read the diskettes written a half track off by fiddling with the stepping > >Indeed, and that was done for some copy-protection schemes. >Quarter-tracks might be possible as well... > >> sequence. I doubt, however, that Wayne Wall would have allowed the waste of >> several sessions of the meetings he so firmly controlled back in those days, >> if the assumptions presented as fact in those discussions had not been >> verified. >> >> The helical cam I remember didn't have a groove, but rather, a ridge or >> "fence" in the shape of a helix, which was tracked by a small, >> spring-loaded, roller bearing. This worked quite well, but, because of > >The one I have here has a groove. There's a ball bearing in that groove, >with a spring leaf on top of it fixed to the head assembly. As the disk >rotates, the ball bearing tracks along the groove and moves the head. > >-tony > From drbilling at ucdavis.edu Thu Apr 8 18:15:00 1999 From: drbilling at ucdavis.edu (Dean Billing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Flopyy disk. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990407092556.00857c00@peseta.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990408161500.0085f420@peseta.ucdavis.edu> At 11:31 AM 4/7/99 -0700, Sellam wrote: >... >I tried to get him to speak at VCF 2.0 after he got axed by Conner (was it >Conner?) but I could never get ahold of him. I think he would have a good >story to tell so I may try again this year. Finis Conner worked for Al Shugart years ago, then left to start his own company. A couple of years ago it was in trouble and Shugart bought Conner Peripherals, but Finnis Conner soon departed. Last year sometime the board of directors of Seagate terminated Al Shugart's contract. -- Dean From drbilling at ucdavis.edu Thu Apr 8 18:26:56 1999 From: drbilling at ucdavis.edu (Dean Billing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: References: <199904051622.JAA21632@saul2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990408162656.007ab710@peseta.ucdavis.edu> >On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > >> I was going to mention RPG in my original post but I changed my mind. ... > ... >Believe it or not people still use that abomination. ... > >Its funny because it's programmed much like the earlier versions of >ForTran, where each statement and associated arguments and data must start >in a particular column due to its origins as a punched card language. > >I would hope the latest version of RPG does away with the archaic column >specificity. Don't know about the latest versions of RPG, but it should not be forgotten that RPG was developed as an emulator for the 407 Tab machine. You could use it to turn a 1401 with a very small memory, i.e. 1.2K, into a 407 Tab machine, thusly you could turn the legion of 407 plug board programmers into computer programmers. One 1401 could do the same amount of work as several 407 Tab machines, much to the chagrin of IBM because the rent on one 1401 could be less than the rent of three 407s, depending on the configurations of each. -- Dean From jpero at cgocable.net Fri Apr 9 00:26:35 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: References: <004901be7fc8$6588bf40$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 5, 99 06:56:26 pm Message-ID: <199904090521.BAA12114@mail.cgocable.net> On my homebuilt computer quest....... There's two groups: Built in video and serial i/o to terminal attached concepts. Can you explain the process to "init" and operate video chip based on 6845 chip with own ram ? Possible to use SRAM with it? Is there CPU specific limitations? I have many of them and certainly get put in use on computer. And alteratives: How one place characters on terminal, give examples of terminal coding as sent from computer to terminal? -outputting characters to screen? -resetting cursor to different places? Which CPU is very friendly for creating basic codings to put into ROM and assembling? Z80? or suitable CPU? Thanks! Wizard From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 9 00:39:23 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) Message-ID: <000201be8252$8892be00$0100c0a8@fuj03> You're right in that it would be silly to bang the head assembly into anything. I didn't say they did that, though it would work for a while, maybe. It's clear to me that Apple drives do things differently from other drives just from listening to them when the machine starts up. I'd never pretend to "know" what they do. In fact I'd be hesitant to admit it if I did know. Your observation that there were alignment problems with Apple disk drives sounds familiar too. Could it be that they actually did bang the head into the stops? My contempt for Apple begins and ends with their total disregard for the value of your data. If you wrote to their floppies, especially if your computer was in the "front room" of a business, exposed to whatever dust was carried in by customers and wind, etc, from the parking lot, (I had a client years ago, whose mail-order business was operated with the "help" of an Apple-II with two controllers and three drives in just such a location.) you'd frequently observe the computer locking up because it had come to a bit it couldn't read. The reason was probably contamination of media or drives, but the only recovery was the reset. Your data, meanwhile, and perhaps your customer calling long distance, were gone by now. They designed the MAC with no memory parity assuming that you'd not mind if your data was corrupted without your knowledge, and though the disk handling was a bit more mature than the Apple-II "I give up . . . and die" it wasn't much better. I've never taken note of the 8" drives' sensor for track 43. I always believed that since they had provided a "low-current" control on the interface cable, it was not necessary. I suppose I'd have taken note if one had failed along the way. Of the many dozens of 8" drives I've owned, I never had one fail. I used several of these for 7 or 8 years, moving them about and just generally abusing them, yet they seemed to keep going. I only occasionally aligned a drive for someone else, or as part of a checkout of an "experienced" set of drives we were buying. The only drives which ever gave a noticeable amount of trouble were the Persci. They were "hangar queens" of the first order. I had a couple of those for a time because I had to verify they worked properly with our controllers. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 8:50 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) >> >> Actually there are two points. One is track 000 and the other is the >> innermost (for sa400 35-40 tracks later). Only track 000 was sensored >> save for apple didn't use that either. Apple cut the interface to the > >A very silly nitpick: > >I have an 8" drive here with 2 slotted optoswitches on the head carriage. >One is on track 0. The other is on track43 and all later tracks. The >reason for the latter one? It automatically does the write current switch >at track 43. > >> minimim number of wires and signals possible and made up the difference >> with software, rather clever in my mind. > >And rather silly in my mind. Continually banging the head into the end >stop does cause the alignment to drift. I've had plenty of Disk IIs and >1541s (another drive that seems to bang the head rather too much) in for >repair. Often alignment is the problem. > >> >> Allison >> >> >> > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 9 01:17:55 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 Message-ID: <000401be8252$8a797f60$0100c0a8@fuj03> I think there may be a semantic problem at hand. The single-density (FM) and double-density (MFM) modulation schemes operate on precisely the same density of flux reversals at the media/head boundary. The difference is that the FM imposes a flux reversal between every bit window, while the MFM does not. What this means is that data encoded in MFM can be written to the media at twice the rate as that at which FM is written without taxing the media or read/write channel ordinarily limited to FM. There were some improvements between earlier and later head designs, and media selected for MFM were required to be better because the bits had half as much material in which to be recorded. With MFM, if a clock was missing, which happened half the time a transition was lost, it didn't necessarily make a difference unless the controller happened to be looking for an address mark. So, if your definition of "double density" means twice as many flux reversals per linear inch, well, you're right, I guess, but that's not what the industry meant when the called it double density. I meant the same thing the rest of the folks in the business meant, i.e twice as much data capacity on the same size medium. It's the same with the difference between MFM and RLL hard disk drives. There were a few drives which, as a matter of course, didn't work with RLL encoding. I don't know why this was. I do know that if you use any of a number of translation schemes, of which ANSI GCR is one, you generate a bit stream which, though it uses more than half the channel bandwith to do so, can be recorded at twice the transfer rate as the corresponding NRZ data without allowing excessive accumulation of charge on the heads as would occur if too many ones or zeroes in succession were recorded in NRZ. These schemes don't require the complicated time domain filters and other "neat" circuits commonly used in read/write channels of that time, and provided sufficient densities of transitions to allow clock recovery. The ANSI GCR translates 4 input bits into 5 recorded bits, and recovers them, and ensures that there are enough transitions to allow clock recovery yet no two adjacent cells have transitions. (?) I suppose this is easily achievable with a PROM, and some folks use a state machine to accomplish the same task. I used a prom. It was easy enough to translate 4 bits received at 5 Mb/sec into 10 bits at 8 Mb/sec. A number of code sets have been developed over the years for the purpose of exploiting such "compression" over digitized voice channels, and many other comm channels. Like I said, the Perscis are hangar queens. Like a BMW . . . in the shop a week a month. That's a hyperbole, of course, but it seems that way when you've paid what the things cost back then only to have to pay that much a year again to keep it running. They were fast, though, and hard disks cost a lot more than the Persci drives. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 9:03 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 >>with positioning. They now use voice-coil actuators rather than steppers, >>and therefore can make quite subtle adjustments in head-stack position >>depending on what is read. Back in the early days, that wasn't so. > >Actually, Persci floppy drives in 1976 or so were voice-coil (and quite >a pain to maintain, even then - these days the glue that holds the >optical graticules in place is often failing, and gluing and realigning >from scratch is even harder, even with all the special Persci >realignment jigs and electronic panels.) And a common modification >to these drives (at least for folks like me who specialize in data >recovery) is software-controlled offsets from the normal track positioning, >something that does use the drive's ability to do fine positioning. > >>One interesting thing about the Apple GCR modulation format is that it >>essentially was a "double-density" technique. > >Eric said the same thing, and I disagree with you both. To me (and all >the tech pubs I've read) the density is how many flux transitions you can >do per second (or revolution). GCR is a way of getting more real data with >the same number of flux transitions. Apple GCR drives use single-density >heads and single density data rates, a considerable cost saving factor >in 1977. > >>cost plenty back then. This was at a time when Radio Shack still stayed >>with single-density, and Apple exceeded their capacity easily. > >While using cheap single-density drives! > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 9 01:25:34 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <000501be8252$8b9e7760$0100c0a8@fuj03> Careful, now! He would have played hell trying to interleave memory accesses between an 8080 and the video refresh process, since its various cycle types were so different. It would have been worse YET with a Z-80! The 6502 also allowed him to proceed with his own DOS and his OWN version of BASIC, without which he mightn't have gotten the strangle-hold on the personal-computers-in-business market. It's pretty hard to criticize his choices, however little I liked the result from the standpoint of seeing it as a tool, but his (and his partner's) decisions were definitely vindicated in the marketplace. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Ward D. Griffiths III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 10:34 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) >On Thu, 8 Apr 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > >> Actually there are two points. One is track 000 and the other is the >> innermost (for sa400 35-40 tracks later). Only track 000 was sensored >> save for apple didn't use that either. Apple cut the interface to the >> minimim number of wires and signals possible and made up the difference >> with software, rather clever in my mind. > >During the design phase, Woz had more time than money, chips cost money >and software only cost time. Remember that he _wanted_ to use the 8080 >but the 6502 cost only a tenth the price. (Imagine what the Apple >might have been like with a decent CPU from the start). >-- >Ward Griffiths >"the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then >you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 9 01:39:35 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <000e01be8253$bc1d8420$0100c0a8@fuj03> A reasonable example of how to do these things would be available in the IBM PC Technical Reference, since their display boards used the 6845. The scheme is based on the notion of SHARED memory. The processor writes to the video memory, or to the character memory, and the 6845, once initilized, generates the cursor, and scans through memory at the proper rate to effect display of the content. Unfortunately, Motorola unfortunately didn't include a delay stage to allow for translation of ASCII data to video, so an external latch has to be used to delay sync and blanking by a character clock period, which means you might have to accomodate that in your sync timing as well. it means there will be a 1-character period offset between blanking and character video while the graphics will be "right on." -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgocable.net To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 11:28 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... >On my homebuilt computer quest....... > >There's two groups: >Built in video and serial i/o to terminal attached concepts. > >Can you explain the process to "init" and operate video chip based >on 6845 chip with own ram ? Possible to use SRAM with it? >Is there CPU specific limitations? > >I have many of them and certainly get put in use on computer. > >And alteratives: > >How one place characters on terminal, give examples of terminal >coding as sent from computer to terminal? > >-outputting characters to screen? >-resetting cursor to different places? > >Which CPU is very friendly for creating basic codings to put into >ROM and assembling? Z80? or suitable CPU? > >Thanks! > >Wizard From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Apr 9 03:51:42 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Microsoft is about to arrest me! Message-ID: <199904090852.BAA21257@mxu1.u.washington.edu> ---------- > From: Robert Lund > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Microsoft is about to arrest me! > Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 1:45 > > Oh, god! Does Lord Gates now even have his own police force?? Nothing would surprise me. > Supreme Court battle ahead of you to get out of MS Jail. I thought MS Jail was Windoze 9x/NT? You get in to it then it locks up? Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Apr 9 02:23:54 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives In-Reply-To: <6cb5a7d7.243e678a@aol.com> Message-ID: >well, my mac IIcx had a drive that wouldnot eject disks. the grease had >gummed up so i used an aerosol cleaning product and cleaned all that out and >used moly grease to fix the stickiness. i also ran a head cleaning disk in >the drive for several minutes and amazingly got the drive reading disks >again. my IIx will spit disks out ok but refuses to read known good mac >formatted floppies. that was cleaned with a head cleaning disk as well but no >improvement. unfortunately, the IIx only has one drive instead of two. I >recently got a IIci (nice machine!) and it works great, but there seems to be >a drive alignment problem. disks formatted on the cx wont always read right >on the IIci. seems that i have to use one external floppy between both macs >in order to get 800k disks to be read reliably. grrr. Classic examples, the little gear and cam mechanism of the eject cycle gets funky, and if not cleaned burns out the motor. I stopped in a electronics place today, and the $12.75 price of a can of cleaner was too much sticker shock (maybe Fry's will be cheaper). With the IIx my only guess is that the heads are out of alignment (top to bottom head I think). I have no clue how this gets fixed. My plan right now is to first buy some more drives, then sit down with a batch and rubber gloves and clean and relube all of them at once. In fact I may seek out a box of "bad" floppies to add to my repair run next time I see them at the swap meet. Fortunately I just opened up a IIfx from a friendly trade and found two excellent condition drives (along with some giant double sized 8 MB simms). From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Apr 9 03:47:30 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >During the design phase, Woz had more time than money, chips cost money >and software only cost time. Remember that he _wanted_ to use the 8080 >but the 6502 cost only a tenth the price. (Imagine what the Apple >might have been like with a decent CPU from the start). It may be hard to imagine now the typical processors are about a thousand times faster than the first 6502 Apple used, but the CPU was not the weak point of the system, it was slow or limited peripherals. Only later when the IIgs became weighted down with GUI etc. did the cpu start to lag the rest of the system. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 9 04:02:04 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Mark-8 Computer - Alive and Ticking! In-Reply-To: <000201be8244$5e78bab0$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: John, congratulations on finally restoring your Mark-8. Now that you've got it working, you must come exhibit it at VCF 3.0. I'm sure Jon Titus would be thrilled to see it on the exhibit floor :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 9 04:12:00 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <000201be8252$8892be00$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > My contempt for Apple begins and ends with their total disregard for the > value of your data. If you wrote to their floppies, especially if your > computer was in the "front room" of a business, exposed to whatever dust was > carried in by customers and wind, etc, from the parking lot, (I had a client > years ago, whose mail-order business was operated with the "help" of an > Apple-II with two controllers and three drives in just such a location.) > you'd frequently observe the computer locking up because it had come to a > bit it couldn't read. The reason was probably contamination of media or > drives, but the only recovery was the reset. Your data, meanwhile, and > perhaps your customer calling long distance, were gone by now. They > designed the MAC with no memory parity assuming that you'd not mind if your > data was corrupted without your knowledge, and though the disk handling was > a bit more mature than the Apple-II "I give up . . . and die" it wasn't much > better. This sounds like poorly written software to me. The only time I've ever had my Apple ][ lock up because some data couldn't be read from the disk was because the software told the Apple to lock up. I think your bias is totally unfounded, or at least founded upon a predisposition to hating the Apple ][ for some odd reason. Did an Apple employee fart near you or spit on your car at some point in your life or something? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Apr 9 07:03:07 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Parity (was Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive) Message-ID: <19990409120307.2654.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> > On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > My contempt for Apple begins and ends with their total disregard for the > > value of your data. > > They designed the MAC with no memory parity assuming that you'd not mind > > if your data was corrupted without your knowledge... Multiple studies of memory reliability (DRAM) show that parity memory is more prone to failure than non-parity memory. If you want reliability, you have to go to something like Error Correcting Codes (ECC) like the big boys use. We had 39-bit memory on a 32-bit VAX (11/750) because the extra seven bits let you *detect* two faulty bits and *correct* a single bit failure. The Sun Enterprise servers I babysit have ECC memory - we used to get one or two failures in the machine room per year, but they were logged and corrected without any loss of data. My Alpha board (AXP-133 "no-name" board) uses 72-pin *parity* SIMMs in pairs to implement ECC on a 64-bit memory bit. The problem with parity is that yes, you do know that you had a failure, but now you have 9 bits that might fail, not 8, raising your risk by 12%. DRAM failures are more often total rather than intermittent. A memory test at power-up is a better insurance policy than relying on parity to save your butt. I did have the parity circuit on a PeeCee cough up a lung once... it was even a five-slot original PC (256K on M.B.). We were using it into the 90's because it was merely the terminal for a Northwest Instruments logic/CPU analyzer that we used to check for problems in our MC68000-based serial boards. One day, the PC would not come up. Because everything was socketed and because I owned an IC tester, we got a bottom-of-the-totem-pole tech grunt to pull each chip and test it. It was a faulty 4164. Labor costs: $25. Parts cost: $0.60 for a part we stocked thousands of for one of our older products. I still have the machine. It still works. I wish I had the invoice for that CPU; the company bought it new in 1981, around $5K, I know, but I'd like to know the exact figure. Bottom line: Apple not using parity is not a reason to trash the Mac. How many PCs have parity since we moved to EDO and SDRAM? It's extra cost and extra complexity and extra possibilities for failure. Unless you can correct the failure, it's not mathematically worth the extra expense and reduced reliability. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Apr 9 07:45:44 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: [RANTISH] Programming Stupidity Message-ID: <13442097286.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Wonderful quote from my boss, who's (supposed to be a professional programmer for Caterpillar): "You should use strings instead of integers. You can put bigger numbers in a string." [Large progressive rant here, nevermind me...] This came up while I was being forced to write a Visual Basic program. You see, he saw me playing with BASIC on one of the UNIXen, and he thinks "BASIC = Visual Basic!". It doesn't. Visual basic is almost entirely worse. You guys think BASIC is bad? How about BASIC that automagically writes bad Windows code for you! This thing couldn't make optimized code if Billy-boy's monopoly depended on it. On top of that, the bad code that it DOES generate doesn't even work. We build the .EXE on a Win98 machine - Now it refusues to run on 95. Microsoft's wizard for making install programs for your software sucks worse. It replaced some DLLs it wasn't supposed to have on our (one and only, thank Goddess!) NT server, and NT crashed like you wouldn't believe. I'm gonna have a hell of a time putting THAT back together... On top of this, the installer doesn't run under 95, either. It starts just fine, makes a pathetic attempt at copying files, then blows up horrbibly with Error 0x16E. Wasn't Billy saying they were supposed to make our error messages make SENSE? With an error message like that, a dialog box reading "YOU LOSE!" would be better. Not to mention a damn sight funnier. We're going to reformat one of our 95 boxen and start from a clean machine - My bet is the installer will find some way to do nasty things to the partition table. The sad part is, this has become the status quo. And I hate it. I can't stand it. This is progress? If progress is like evolution, I'd sure like to jump back in time and see what we came from, it's probably a lot better than the here-and-now... Another quote from my boss: "In programming, it doesn't matter how well it runs or does it's job. The bottom line is, 'can we sell it to someone?'" Is it just me, or is that just plain wrong? Please say it's not only me... I hate being alone, 'cause that means I'm right and everyone else is wrong. Sorry for that, I just needed to vent. Do with it what you will... ------- From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 9 07:53:58 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I have never tried to re-wind a Mac floppy eject motor. Can't believe > it's impossible, though. Many years ago I used to race "slot cars" which are models with DCmotor power from a track that provided it. Rewinding motors for more ouput was common practice. LAter that skill would be used to repair motros used on odd drives and otehr applications. It's very doable though some of the smaller ones can try the patience of a saint opening them up! Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Apr 9 07:54:35 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... Message-ID: <990409085435.20c000de@trailing-edge.com> >How one place characters on terminal, give examples of terminal >coding as sent from computer to terminal? > >-outputting characters to screen? Say you want to print the character 'W'. You put the letter 'W' into the accumulator, and tell it to output to the serial port. >-resetting cursor to different places? For a truly portable interface, you use a mix of carriage returns, line feeds, and spaces/tabs to put the cursor where you want. If you know you'll have a VT52 or VT100 or ADM3A or (insert generic type of terminal here) you can send a specific character sequence. If you're going to be eventually turning this machine into a CP/M platform, I heavily recommend that you read the copy of your "CP/M Customization Guide" that shipped with your CP/M distribution. You'll find the terminal output/input routines explicitly coded as an example in that book. >Which CPU is very friendly for creating basic codings to put into >ROM and assembling? Z80? or suitable CPU? Just about anything. The Z80 certainly is a popular and easy-to-interface to choice. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Apr 9 08:07:40 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Rotting away Message-ID: <19990409130740.26762.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Roger Merchberger wrote: > Once upon a midnight dreary, Ethan Dicks had spoken clearly: > > >Every once in a while, I still go to video-game auctions. It is possible to > >pick up full-sized games for under $100 if you don't want the hottest games. > >PacMac, Galaga and other classics are still available, but for big bucks. > > Where? I'd like to pick up a video game (over 10 years old -- something > like "Time Pilot" or somesuch, so this *is* on topic... ;-), but where I > live nothing like that is available. As I said, in my area, there is a company that has a rolling road show that auctions off games and ordinary people and companies alike can buy and sell. I no longer have the contact info for the auction company since I haven't been to an auction in long enought that they have dropped me from the mailing list. > Also, is there a web (or other) reference as to what games used which > processors? I think several games used the Moto6809, and if I had my > druthers, I'd get a game based on that processor, as it's my favo[u]ite. I would think that some of the arcade emulation sites would have that info as it pertains directly to what you can emulate. I don't have any sort of list, but I can say that Gorf and Wizard 0f Wor use the Z-80 and many Atari games use the 6502. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 9 08:11:30 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <000501be8252$8b9e7760$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Careful, now! He would have played hell trying to interleave memory > accesses between an 8080 and the video refresh process, since its various > cycle types were so different. It would have been worse YET with a Z-80! It was done though. The 6845 you generally talk to it's local ram through it not around it. The H19 terminal did the latter. > The 6502 also allowed him to proceed with his own DOS and his OWN version of > BASIC, without which he mightn't have gotten the strangle-hold on the > personal-computers-in-business market. It's pretty hard to criticize his > choices, however little I liked the result from the standpoint of seeing it > as a tool, but his (and his partner's) decisions were definitely vindicated > in the marketplace. It proved software was more important than hardware. The best cpu with no software was still nothing. The z80 was maybe the best at the moment but the 6502 was as versitile and plenty fast enough to make up for it's limitations. Likewise the trs 80 would prove lowercase and some more speed were very desireable (based on the two most common mods!). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 9 08:22:09 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Parity (was Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive) In-Reply-To: <19990409120307.2654.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Bottom line: Apple not using parity is not a reason to trash the Mac. How > many PCs have parity since we moved to EDO and SDRAM? It's extra cost and > extra complexity and extra possibilities for failure. Unless you can correct > the failure, it's not mathematically worth the extra expense and reduced > reliability. there is one reason to use parity... Data integrity. While a missed bit can cause the machine to go down you are not burdened with BAD data. If the bad bit happens in the data area rahter than code and it happens to be the high order bit of a floating point number it's quite imaginable that 100 dollar credit could easily become a debit of some larger amount. ECC however is fault tolerence but the price paid in the past was high in both memory system speed and COST. Which cpus going ever so fast that cost is still high but, having wyour SQL data base corrupt do to bad memory could really hurt! Allison From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Apr 9 08:22:59 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives Message-ID: In a message dated 09/04/99 4:56:32 Eastern Daylight Time, mikeford@netwiz.net writes: << My plan right now is to first buy some more drives, then sit down with a batch and rubber gloves and clean and relube all of them at once. In fact I may seek out a box of "bad" floppies to add to my repair run next time I see them at the swap meet. Fortunately I just opened up a IIfx from a friendly trade and found two excellent condition drives (along with some giant double sized 8 MB simms). >> that's a good idea. better to find and hoard those old disk drives for parts than have them thrown away for good. that IIfx is nice machine also. treat those 8meg simms like gold. they're proprietary to the fx model. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Apr 9 08:22:36 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: [RANTISH] Programming Stupidity Message-ID: <199904091324.GAA07829@mxu4.u.washington.edu> > From: Daniel A. Seagraves > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: [RANTISH] Programming Stupidity > Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 10:15 > > > [Large progressive rant here, nevermind me...] First of several in this msg... >You guys think BASIC is bad? How about BASIC that automagically > writes bad Windows code for you! Sounds about right. Never tried VB myself, (well the beer, yes, that's ok) I have an assistant who is somewhat interested in using VB for righting apps. I had occasion to write a little PLC emulation for a dos box to replace a failing (and not Y2K compliant to boot) PLC that rings the bells at the school to announce change of class, lunch etc. It also controls the sprinkler system. Anyway, a couple days hacking around in Turbo Pascal 6 produced a simple little program that controls a few external devices on a time schedule via a $2 interface connected to the printer port. Runs on XT's and up, around 23k for the .exe file. Works fine. Just a text file with the schedule info in it. Too easy. My assistant thought that was ok, so he thought he'd try it in VB just as an exercise. At last count, it was something like a 650k exe file, needed at least 4 mb of ram, and he still hadn't found a way to get control over the bits in the printer port to let it actually do something useful!! He's still nibbling away at it, he's perssistant, so he'll probably make it go. Eventually. Been 6 weeks now though..... > This thing couldn't make optimized code > if Billy-boy's monopoly depended on it. Pity it doesn't depend on it. > On top of that, the bad code that it DOES generate doesn't even work. > We build the .EXE on a Win98 machine - Now it refusues to run on 95. Micro$oft producing non backward compatible software? Nah, couldn't believe that.... yeah, right. > Microsoft's wizard for making install programs for your software sucks worse. > It replaced some DLLs it wasn't supposed to have on our (one and only, thank > Goddess!) NT server, and NT crashed like you wouldn't believe. Oh yes I would. I just drop kicked the last of our NT servers. 2 years of tinkering and updateing and god knows what else and it STILL kept screwing up a database. It's now my workstation. Running 98. The family resemblance is still a pain at times, but at least it only gives ME trouble, not half the darn school.. > I'm gonna have a hell of a time putting THAT back together.. Doesn't sound like a fun weekend project. Best of luck. You'll need it. . On top of this, the > installer doesn't run under 95, either. It starts just fine, makes a pathetic > attempt at copying files, then blows up horrbibly with Error 0x16E. Wasn't > Billy saying they were supposed to make our error messages make SENSE? To Micro$oft Tech staff when you ring them at $25 a problem maybe. But I wouldn't even count on that. > an error message like that, a dialog box reading "YOU LOSE!" would be better. You've already lost if you have to run Windoze whatever. I'd switch to something more stable in a minute, but the sad part is that Windoze is everywhere, so we have to teach our students to use it and the apps that run on it, because that's what they will likely find in the real world.. > Another quote from my boss: > "In programming, it doesn't matter how well it runs or does it's job. The > bottom line is, 'can we sell it to someone?'" What planet is this guy from? Originally? Marketdroidia? He sounds like one of those funny creatures. > Is it just me, or is that just plain wrong? Please say it's not only me... It isn't only you. I think you have a couple of million mates globally. Minimum. Trust me on this. > I hate being alone, 'cause that means I'm right and everyone else is wrong. You are in absolutely no danger of that. Micro$loth bashing may become the all time greatest user participation sport of the 21st century. > Sorry for that, I just needed to vent. Do with it what you will... Just confirms much I already believed..... Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 9 08:49:40 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 9, 99 02:12:00 am Message-ID: <199904091349.GAA25684@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 651 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/705b7ced/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 9 08:45:11 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Mark-8 Computer - Alive and Ticking! In-Reply-To: <000201be8244$5e78bab0$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990409084511.00ff7340@vpwisfirewall> At 12:49 AM 4/9/99 -0400, John Lewczyk wrote: >Late in Februrary I pulled out of a corner of my workshop a box containing >my old Mark-8 computer, the one whose construction was the subject of the >cover of Radio Electronics magazine in July 1974. On the ccauction mailing list, someone just reported that this issue of R-E was sold at auction for nearly $200. - John From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Apr 9 08:50:12 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Floppy and Hard disc questions.... Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990409085012.00949d50@texas.net> I have just gotten an old GRiDCase 1530 running and now I need to rig some things. First the harddisc: 1) The manual says that it uses an IBM AT compatible harddisc. What's the difference between an IBM AT style harddisc and an IDE? Is there anyway to rig an adapter? 2) There's a floppy expansion plug on the back but I do not know the signals needed for a generic floppy. Is there a web page with the pinouts, signal directions and a signal description? Thanks, Arfon ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Apr 9 09:06:12 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: OT was [RANTISH Programming Stupidity] Message-ID: <01BE8270.992ACE60.steverob@hotoffice.com> > "In programming, it doesn't matter how well it runs or does it's job. The > bottom line is, 'can we sell it to someone?'" Terrible as it seems, that is a cold hard fact. I'm not sure why everyone thinks that MicroSoft's goal is to build good software. Their ONLY goal is to make money! I don't think anyone can dispute their success at doing that. So, how many billionaires has Linux created? Steve Robertson - From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 9 09:13:00 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <001001be8293$2596dd40$0100c0a8@fuj03> No, I have no personal conflict with an Apple employee. The problem to which I refer was all to common back in the '70's. Perhaps it was because of the way in which the various program vendors wrote their software, but I'd bet it's because they weren't left much choice. The detail to which I refer is the absence of a message like the infamous IBM-PC's ". . . Abort, Retry, Fail . . ." message. Once the Apple encountered a read error of some type, it seemed that it couldn't recover without a restart. I don't know the details, but I saw it every day that I was in the same room with an Apple that was not idle. It seemed that the only way to avoid this type of problem was to avoid the Apple, so, with one notable exception, that was what I did. These things are based on perceptions, though, not necessarily a sound and rigorous evaluation of the facts. I once worked in a room with over a dozen MAC's though, and was the only one with both a MAC and a PC/AT. We constantly had "trouble" with the MAC's while I continued to chug along with my PC/AT running DOS. My work was always ahead of schedule if I could stick to the PC. Now, when I ran the MAC, e.g. using EXCEL, or McDRAW, which provided functions not so readily available to the PC, I didn't have as much trouble as some of the more common programs used by the others, e.g. WORD or MacWrite. I did my writing in WordStar which I knew quite well, having used it since pre-release 0.7 (WordMaster). I imagine that quite a bit of the trouble was due to the newness of the network scheme used to share the two laser printers. I'd point out almost daily, that my PC/AT with a laser printer and a substantial hard disk, plus a COLOR display, which none of the MAC's there had, cost less than one of these MAC's alone. The bias I held against Apple products was based on the perception that lots of features and performance were sacrificed in favor of the rather lame color display, which I then felt was useful for games and other forms of entertainment, which I felt were out of place in the office. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 3:19 AM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) >On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> My contempt for Apple begins and ends with their total disregard for the >> value of your data. If you wrote to their floppies, especially if your >> computer was in the "front room" of a business, exposed to whatever dust was >> carried in by customers and wind, etc, from the parking lot, (I had a client >> years ago, whose mail-order business was operated with the "help" of an >> Apple-II with two controllers and three drives in just such a location.) >> you'd frequently observe the computer locking up because it had come to a >> bit it couldn't read. The reason was probably contamination of media or >> drives, but the only recovery was the reset. Your data, meanwhile, and >> perhaps your customer calling long distance, were gone by now. They >> designed the MAC with no memory parity assuming that you'd not mind if your >> data was corrupted without your knowledge, and though the disk handling was >> a bit more mature than the Apple-II "I give up . . . and die" it wasn't much >> better. > >This sounds like poorly written software to me. The only time I've ever >had my Apple ][ lock up because some data couldn't be read from the disk >was because the software told the Apple to lock up. I think your bias is >totally unfounded, or at least founded upon a predisposition to hating the >Apple ][ for some odd reason. Did an Apple employee fart near you or spit >on your car at some point in your life or something? > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Apr 9 09:09:46 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Mark-8 Computer - Alive and Ticking! In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990409084511.00ff7340@vpwisfirewall> References: <000201be8244$5e78bab0$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <4.1.19990409100313.00a9ea00@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 08:45 AM 4/9/99 -0500, John Foust said something like: >At 12:49 AM 4/9/99 -0400, John Lewczyk wrote: >>Late in Februrary I pulled out of a corner of my workshop a box containing >>my old Mark-8 computer, the one whose construction was the subject of the >>cover of Radio Electronics magazine in July 1974. > >On the ccauction mailing list, someone just reported that >this issue of R-E was sold at auction for nearly $200. Why? I'd like to see proof of that. That's a little unbelievable like some of those strange amounts bid on sort-of common stuff on ePay. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 9 09:40:51 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Parity (was Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive) Message-ID: <001501be8297$09d6d7a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Yes, increasing the amount of memory by 1/8 increases the likelihood of failure by 1/8. The inclination to bury one's head and ignore the potential for memory or bus failure comes from the competition for price advantage on the personal computer market, though. The argument I've heard is "if MAC'c can live with it, so can PC's" which may not be true, but appears to be true enough for the typical user. Once such a memory failure is detected, there's nothing you can do about it except endeavor NOT to save the data which may be corrupted and become aware of the problem. I see memory parity errors (most of the PC's here use parity or single bit error correction) about twice a year. Normally it's when a new box is being brought up and memories aren't seated right or something on that order. I don't know what that says about the memory systems of today. It's been a few years, but I always preferred single-bit correction over parity in sizeable memory arrays. I designed one fairly large buffer memory for Honeywell, which had 72-bit-wide memory, 64 MB deep, which was quite a bit for that time (1991) with single bit correction only to have the manager tell me it was not needed. "Whom are we helping with this added expense?" was his position. I pointed out that it would make memory problems a depot or even field repair whereas it would be a return-to-factory otherwise. He insisted, though. The software lead and I agreed we'd base our memory check on parity, which still allowed for isolation of the faulty SIMM. Since this was not a main system memory but just a data buffer, it didn't matter that it ws defective and firmware could rigorously isolate the faulty device. I'm not sure what you're saying about the relative value of the extra bit of memory versus the risk of promulgating a transient error into infinity by recording it as though it were correct, Ethan. You seem to suggest that it would have been better not to have had the 60-cent memory part in place rather than to find and repair it once its failure was detected by parity circuitry. I doubt you believe that, however. It is true that the addition of parity circuitry means that there is an elevated likelihood of failure proportinal to the increased memory size. It is also true that parity checking circuitry requires time to work, and can, itself, fail as well. Increased circuit complexity does increase the statistical probability of failure. ECC circuitry doesn't decrease the probability of memory failure. It does decrease the amount of down-time resulting from it, and it avoids the data loss and down-time associated with single-bit transient failures, which are more common than hard failures. I guess it's like automobile insurance. If you have assets you need to protect, you buy it. If you haven't you don't. My assessment is that Apple started with the assumption that you don't. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 6:10 AM Subject: Parity (was Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive) > > >> On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >> > My contempt for Apple begins and ends with their total disregard for the >> > value of your data. >> > They designed the MAC with no memory parity assuming that you'd not mind >> > if your data was corrupted without your knowledge... > >Multiple studies of memory reliability (DRAM) show that parity memory is >more prone to failure than non-parity memory. If you want reliability, you >have to go to something like Error Correcting Codes (ECC) like the big boys >use. We had 39-bit memory on a 32-bit VAX (11/750) because the extra seven >bits let you *detect* two faulty bits and *correct* a single bit failure. >The Sun Enterprise servers I babysit have ECC memory - we used to get one or >two failures in the machine room per year, but they were logged and corrected >without any loss of data. My Alpha board (AXP-133 "no-name" board) uses 72-pin >*parity* SIMMs in pairs to implement ECC on a 64-bit memory bit. > >The problem with parity is that yes, you do know that you had a failure, but >now you have 9 bits that might fail, not 8, raising your risk by 12%. DRAM >failures are more often total rather than intermittent. A memory test at >power-up is a better insurance policy than relying on parity to save your butt. > >I did have the parity circuit on a PeeCee cough up a lung once... it was even >a five-slot original PC (256K on M.B.). We were using it into the 90's because >it was merely the terminal for a Northwest Instruments logic/CPU analyzer that >we used to check for problems in our MC68000-based serial boards. One day, the >PC would not come up. Because everything was socketed and because I owned an >IC tester, we got a bottom-of-the-totem-pole tech grunt to pull each chip and >test it. It was a faulty 4164. Labor costs: $25. Parts cost: $0.60 for a >part >we stocked thousands of for one of our older products. I still have the >machine. It still works. I wish I had the invoice for that CPU; the company >bought it new in 1981, around $5K, I know, but I'd like to know the exact >figure. > >Bottom line: Apple not using parity is not a reason to trash the Mac. How >many PCs have parity since we moved to EDO and SDRAM? It's extra cost and >extra complexity and extra possibilities for failure. Unless you can correct >the failure, it's not mathematically worth the extra expense and reduced >reliability. > >-ethan > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Fri Apr 9 09:48:56 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: References: <199904081347.JAA31377@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <199904091448.AAA12201@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 09:55 08/04/99 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >Say PDP-8e now, most would be terrified by the likes of a SMP KL10 >cluster. One somewhat amusing DEC FS incident. A few years ago La Trobe was hosting a DECUS event and a couple of us at La Trobe decided that we should do something to celebrate the 25th anniversary of Unix (however we measured this). We acquired a PDP-11/44 and installed BSD 2.11 on it. As DECUS were sponsoring the event, we had a promise that if we had a hardware failure, FS would be called at Digital's expense. Well, the RL controller failed so I logged a call. It took quite a while to convince telephone support that Digital did in fact manufacture PDP-11s and the look on the (fairly young) FS engineer's face when he arrived on site was priceless. Fortunately he'd brought along a replacement card which I installed (helps if you know a bit about hardware :-). We were asked not to log any more calls..... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Fri Apr 9 09:52:10 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <199904081407.KAA32075@pechter.dyndns.org> References: Message-ID: <199904091452.AAA12239@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 10:07 08/04/99 -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: >I think DEC did some of the best diags in the industry. Well they had bad days as well. Ask anyone who has had to maintain Nautilus class VAX systems (88xx, 85xx, 8350). You could be fairly sure that the defective module called by the diags was not the one that had failed. I'm twitching now at the terminal and it's been three or four years since I last had to maintain our 8800s.... Please don't mention retorquing the back plane, please!!! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Fri Apr 9 09:53:16 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <990408101805.202000ef@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199904091453.AAA12305@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 10:18 08/04/99 -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >>DEC's customer runnable MicroVax stuff was fairly lame though. > >Generally, if you can boot the diagnostics on a Microvax, you >know that the Microvax is OK. Yep, pretty useless, considering >that if you can't boot VMS, you can't boot the diagnostics. I always considered VMS as the ultimate diagnostic. If you could boot VMS the hardware was most of the way to being OK. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Fri Apr 9 10:10:21 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: [RANTISH] Programming Stupidity In-Reply-To: <13442097286.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at "Apr 9, 99 05:45:44 am" Message-ID: <199904091510.LAA00548@hiway1.exit109.com> > Wonderful quote from my boss, who's (supposed to be a professional programmer > for Caterpillar): > "You should use strings instead of integers. You can put bigger numbers in > a string." Sounds a little like a BASIC I used to work with... My first job out of college was programming in BASIC-X, the proprietary dialect used on the BTI-5000 and BTI-8000 minis. One of its features was "string arithmetic" which allowed you to store arbitrary precision numbers in strings and perform the normal mathematical functions. Example: 10 DIM A$(10), B$(10) 20 A$="12345678.90" 30 B$="34567890.10" 40 A$=A$+B$ 50 PRINT B$ Handy for big dollar calculations like Bill Gates' net worth or the annual budget reconciliation. Out of curiousity, am I the only one on the list to have ever seen one of these beasts? The 5000 (I think there were also 4000 and possibly 6000) systems were small refrigerator-sized boxes that were used in turnkey apps like car dealerships. The 8000 was a marvel- 1981 vintage 32-bit symmetric mutiprocessor. Big 19" cabinets, standard CDC washing machine drives, etc. Most diagnostcs were performed remotely and it was often possible to restart a crashed system without losing any work. Unfortunately, as far ahead of its time as the BTI-8000 was, it suffered from lousy system software and languages. BASIC-X ran in a compatability mode (an RM-derived BASIC was killed off shortly after the 1.0 release); the FORTRAN compiler was buggy as hell; and PASCAL was the only language that let you get anywhere near the hardware. Towards the end, their great claim to fame was their "Hot COBOL" compiler, a native-code compiler which replaced a Ryan-MacFarland-derived interpreted one, which they tried to compete against the HP-3000 with. If ever a box deserved a Unix port... The one I worked on at Monmouth College was decommisioned in approx. 1989. I recall there being one in the mayors office of the City of New York, but I don't know of any others. <<>> From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 9 10:21:36 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <002001be829c$bb048fe0$0100c0a8@fuj03> please see imbedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 7:18 AM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) >On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Careful, now! He would have played hell trying to interleave memory >> accesses between an 8080 and the video refresh process, since its various >> cycle types were so different. It would have been worse YET with a Z-80! > >It was done though. The 6845 you generally talk to it's local ram through >it not around it. The H19 terminal did the latter. It was, indeed, but not when the Apple was designed, since the 6845 and 6545 didn't yet exist. >> The 6502 also allowed him to proceed with his own DOS and his OWN version of >> BASIC, without which he mightn't have gotten the strangle-hold on the >> personal-computers-in-business market. It's pretty hard to criticize his >> choices, however little I liked the result from the standpoint of seeing it >> as a tool, but his (and his partner's) decisions were definitely vindicated >> in the marketplace. > >It proved software was more important than hardware. The best cpu with no >software was still nothing. The z80 was maybe the best at the moment but >the 6502 was as versitile and plenty fast enough to make up for it's >limitations. There were many people who disagreed with that performance comparison. The two processors (I used them both extensively) were different enough that comparison and contrast was not easy. The Z-80 had many registers and a rich instruction set of which much was awkward and difficult to use. The 6502 had fewer registers and fewer instructions but they were amplified by addressing modes not readily available to the Z-80 user, particularly if his code was for CP/M which sort-of required you stick to the 8080-compatible instruction subset. The fastest 6502 available in 1980 was a 4 MHz processor which stroked memory for 125 ns almost every cycle in its typical application. The Z-80 had just that year become available in a "B" version (6 MHz) which stroked memory for slightly less than 3 clock ticks on a memory cycle and barely 1 (166 ns) on an unmodified M1 cycle. Having said that, and given (1) that the two processors executed code at about the same rate for the same memory cycle length (hard to prove or disprove) and (2) memory cost was more of an issue than system performance, hence the memory cost was used to set the rate at which the CPU operated, I'd say there's really no basis for comparing the actual performance of the two processors. >Likewise the trs 80 would prove lowercase and some more speed were very >desireable (based on the two most common mods!). The TRS-80 could have been put out with (1) an 80x24 display rather than the 16x64, it could have solidly supported double-density FD's (in the model 3) and it could have operated at about 4MHz rather than the 2.-something it used, and it could have switched in and out the ROM so it could run CP/M but for the greed of Tandy Corp. It would have cost them an additional $5 and change to put those features in their model 3, but they thought "well, we're going to sell a million of these . . . " and decided they preferred having the dollars. Had they gone the other way, they probably would have had the "personal computer" market all to themselves. They had a huge distribution network, a huge sales force, a huge service network, unlike any other microcomputer manufacturer of the time. Within a year, Apple owned the personal computer market, particularly with respect to businesses, even though Radio Shack had better packaging by the time the Model 3 came out. That was also about the time it became common to see the 80x24 displays, the 8"disk drives, the nearly 4MHz Z-80 running CP/M, the extra 16K memory, etc. on the Apple II. If Tandy had gone with the better design, which was on the table, there probably would be no IBM PC today. >Allison > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 9 10:29:14 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Floppy and Hard disc questions.... Message-ID: <002d01be829d$ba2de980$0100c0a8@fuj03> see imbedded comments below, please. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Arfon Gryffydd To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 7:59 AM Subject: Floppy and Hard disc questions.... >I have just gotten an old GRiDCase 1530 running and now I need to rig some >things. > >First the harddisc: > >1) The manual says that it uses an IBM AT compatible harddisc. What's the >difference between an IBM AT style harddisc and an IDE? Is there anyway to >rig an adapter? The PC/AT disk drive used the ST-506 interface (20-conductor data cable, 34-conductor control cable) and what was essentially a WD-1002 WAH controller. The IDE interface is, from a software perspective, essentially the same interface as what was used with the WD controller card. The controller hardware has simply been migrated to the drive. Now, EIDE is another bird. It has enhancements which make it less compatible with that old firmware. It's advisable you try your Grid machine with an old disk drive first before you fiddle with the drive adapter hardware. >2) There's a floppy expansion plug on the back but I do not know the >signals needed for a generic floppy. Is there a web page with the pinouts, >signal directions and a signal description? > What you have to find out is what the pinout of that particular connector is. There are lots of sources for standard FDD interface cable pinout. > >Thanks, > >Arfon >---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... >######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # >#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## >####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### >###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### >##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### ># ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) >---------------------------------------- >Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > >Slackware Mailing List: >http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From marvin at rain.org Fri Apr 9 11:39:07 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Floppy and Hard disc questions.... References: <3.0.3.32.19990409085012.00949d50@texas.net> Message-ID: <370E2D2B.86C0315F@rain.org> Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > > I have just gotten an old GRiDCase 1530 running and now I need to rig some > things. > 1) The manual says that it uses an IBM AT compatible harddisc. What's the > difference between an IBM AT style harddisc and an IDE? Is there anyway to > rig an adapter? Not being familiar with the unit, is the HD an internal one? If so (and I am assuming it is an XT compatable), then why not just put in a (probably) MFM drive? The difference between the AT style (MFM) drives and an IDE drive is like a tape recorder and a record player; they both put out sound, but have different ways of doing it :). From marvin at rain.org Fri Apr 9 11:42:46 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Mark-8 Computer - Alive and Ticking! References: <000201be8244$5e78bab0$013da8c0@Corellian> <4.1.19990409100313.00a9ea00@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <370E2E06.EA0241A6@rain.org> Christian Fandt wrote: > > Why? I'd like to see proof of that. That's a little unbelievable like some > of those strange amounts bid on sort-of common stuff on ePay. I'll give you proof once the money order arrives. The top three bidders were at $175, $190, and $190 and IIRC there were 19 bids. Since I have another copy, I was interested in seeing what would happen. SOmeone has also posted on ebay the Radio-Electronics plans that you had to send away for, and it will be *very* interesting to see what that brings. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 9 11:55:28 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: [RANTISH] Programming Stupidity In-Reply-To: <13442097286.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990409095134.03cd5df0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 05:45 AM 4/9/99 -0700, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >Sorry for that, I just needed to vent. Do with it what you will... You Go! :-) Actually, Microsoft has never claimed (and it has nearly always been enforced) that there was ANY compatibility going backwards on their releases. The only time they make an _explicit_ backward compatibility statement is when you were using VC++4.0 on Win95 to make Win3.1 binaries. If you build it on an earilier release, and follow all the rules, it will run on later releases. It never works the other way around. That is why I built some code on Win95 original, for distribution, it works on all Win95 and Win98 systems. --Chuck From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Apr 9 11:55:40 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Fwd: Unisys system avail Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990409094828.0acf9d44@ricochet.net> From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 9 12:01:48 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Mark-8 Computer - Alive and Ticking! In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990409084511.00ff7340@vpwisfirewall> References: <000201be8244$5e78bab0$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <4.1.19990409095957.009a7100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 08:45 AM 4/9/99 -0500, John Foust wrote: >On the ccauction mailing list, someone just reported that >this issue [mark-8] of R-E was sold at auction for nearly $200. God, I would hate to think what the Mark-8 would sell for. I'd love to get a couple of the multi-millionaires who bid regularly there into a bidding war on it though, that would be too sweet. --Chuck From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Apr 9 11:59:39 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <001001be8293$2596dd40$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 9, 99 08:13:00 am Message-ID: <199904091659.JAA04031@saul6.u.washington.edu> > No, I have no personal conflict with an Apple employee. The problem to > which I refer was all to common back in the '70's. Perhaps it was because > of the way in which the various program vendors wrote their software, but > I'd bet it's because they weren't left much choice. The detail to which I > refer is the absence of a message like the infamous IBM-PC's ". . . Abort, > Retry, Fail . . ." message. Once the Apple encountered a read error of some > type, it seemed that it couldn't recover without a restart. I don't know > the details, but I saw it every day that I was in the same room with an > Apple that was not idle. It seemed that the only way to avoid this type of > problem was to avoid the Apple, so, with one notable exception, that was > what I did. These things are based on perceptions, though, not necessarily > a sound and rigorous evaluation of the facts. I'm glad you agree that you're basing your statements on perceptions. For the record, I never encountered any disk errors of the kind you mentioned (on the Apple ][+ or //e my family owned) though I did encounter other kinds. Actually, I found lock-ups quite rare. Crashes into the machine- language monitor happened more often. My usage was probably lighter than yours. I agree with the person who said that your software may have been flaky. In my experience, disk errors fall into a couple of categories: VERY MINOR: Hit "retry" once or twice and the error goes away. MINOR: It is OK to choose "fail", though of course you're still taking a risk. You can "retry" if you want, but it probably won't work. MAJOR: Forget about retrying. Even "fail" may be dangerous since the damnge is so widespread that your bad data will have further bad effects. On my CP/M machine with flaky drives, very minor errors happen more than they should (but the machine does the retrying, so the problem solves itself after some uncomfortable noises from the drive). Minor errors happen sometimes too; some of my disks have bad sectors in the .COM files but if I continue after the error message, the programs run anyway. This is risky. I may have had some major errors. I don't trust the drives enough to put vital data on them, so I haven't lost any data yet. On the lab PCs, which are heavily abused, when my disks get corrupted and an error pops up, the damage is usually already done (the drive has zapped my disk or whatever). On my Mac (or the lab Macs), the situation is less drastic than on the PCs, but I've occasionally had disks get munched. Hard-drive problems are always file-system-related which is a different issue entirely. So my point is that a change in the Apple OS may not have helped you at all; you might have been running into serious disk errors anyway. I still believe that some local software of yours was at fault for locking up, but I'm also saying that in your situation the only real remedy would be to make backups. Sometimes there is not really an easy solution to these problems. My other point is that I wonder if an "abort/retry/fail" message is as useful as some people say it is. I guess that depends on the type of errors each user tends to encounter. [Macs gave a lot of trouble] I have noticed the paradox that one person will find a product completely stable and someone else will see it as a pile of junk, and both people can be right. Usually all impressions fall at the extreme end of the scale. You are right to fault Apple's company policy; you could complain about the design and construction of the Macs (or the inability of the software to handle serious loads). You could even complain about the attitude of Apple's system-software designers (on the Mac) having been influenced by the philosophy of the Apple ][. But it is wrong to think, "The Apple ][ did this, and the Mac does the same thing, therefore the problem is the same." There are at least 7 years of evolution between the two machines (1977-1984) and probably more. That doesn't leave you much ground for an "equal footing" conparison, since the machines are NOT on equal footing. > The bias I held against Apple products was based on the perception that lots > of features and performance were sacrificed in favor of the rather lame > color display, which I then felt was useful for games and other forms of > entertainment, which I felt were out of place in the office. Remember that the Apple was a product of its time. The Apple II and I had a number of features that made them "super-whizbang" when the Apples were new (one-board construction, BASIC in ROM, machine-language monitor that replaced a front panel, "intelligent terminal" features, cassette/disk, etc.). What was that, 1977 or 1979? The Apples were designed when the "hobbyist computer user" mentality still prevailed. Its features didn't evolve that cleanly into the //e, //gs, etc. -- that's partly Apple's fault but partly just the nature of backward compatibility. Computers that were designed _from scratch_ a few years after the Apple were much more advanced. (I'm thinking of the BBC Micro, especially, which is very well-done. It's not a business machine though.) I would like to eliminate your bias or reduce it. Even if that doesn't happen, you should at least have some facts and perpsective to go with your bias. -- Derek From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 9 12:06:07 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Mark-8 Computer - Alive and Ticking! In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990409095957.009a7100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19990409084511.00ff7340@vpwisfirewall> <000201be8244$5e78bab0$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990409120607.00cd9390@vpwisfirewall> At 10:01 AM 4/9/99 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >At 08:45 AM 4/9/99 -0500, John Foust wrote: >>On the ccauction mailing list, someone just reported that >>this issue [mark-8] of R-E was sold at auction for nearly $200. > >God, I would hate to think what the Mark-8 would sell for. I'd love to get >a couple of the multi-millionaires who bid regularly there into a bidding >war on it though, that would be too sweet. It makes one want to surf the used book stores, cherry-picking dusty magazines like this, in order to fund bad habits. - John From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Apr 9 12:11:42 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Mark-8 Computer - Alive and Ticking! In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990409120607.00cd9390@vpwisfirewall> from John Foust at "Apr 9, 1999 12:06:07 pm" Message-ID: <199904091711.RAA22107@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > At 10:01 AM 4/9/99 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: > >At 08:45 AM 4/9/99 -0500, John Foust wrote: > >>On the ccauction mailing list, someone just reported that > >>this issue [mark-8] of R-E was sold at auction for nearly $200. > > > >God, I would hate to think what the Mark-8 would sell for. I'd love to get > >a couple of the multi-millionaires who bid regularly there into a bidding > >war on it though, that would be too sweet. > > It makes one want to surf the used book stores, cherry-picking > dusty magazines like this, in order to fund bad habits. > > - John > Exactly. I'm tempted to buy an old copy of Interface Age, and post it on ebay. just by mentioning all the old computer advertizements, it would probably bring a kings random. Of course, Kings arent worth as much as they used to be, but still... -Lawrence LeMay From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 9 12:35:16 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:57 2005 Subject: Parity In-Reply-To: <19990409120307.2654.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, implementing parity INCREASES the total number of errors that can occur. Would you rather have 9*x errors, and each time be notified of the error, and redo the portion of the task where the error happened; or would you rather have 8*x errors, and each time continue on blissfully unaware that your data was corrupted? "Users of parity-enabled systems report having 9 times as many errors as do users of non-parity-enabled systems!" No, there are NOT 9 times as many errors! "Drivers of cars with guages and idiot lights report far more problems than do drivers of cars with NO instrumentation. Take out the bulb of the oil pressure light, and there won't be as many complaints." I am NOT a fan of IBM's handling of it! (JMP $) But it is easy to see the reasoning behind it. There are many situations, such as text editing, where I would just as soon IGNORE the error, and go back later to find/fix it. But IBM knew that providing an option to ignore errors was too risky. Too many lusers would simply IGNORE all errors that occur ("I've ALWAYS done it this way, and have NEVER had a problem"). Then, when the payroll checks have wrong amounts, blame IBM for lousy computers. IBM's reasoning was that they would rather have the computer refuse to function than to function unreliably. And that could only be achieved by not giving the user the choice of IGNORing errors. "Yeah, but why does it have to lock up when I'm only using it to play Lode-runner?" IBM took a similar unpopular approach on the second model of AT, when they added code to prevent the computer from running if the user had increased the clock speed past what the MB was designed for. Non-parity systems (such as Apple and current PCs) instead take the approach of WHO CARES whether the data is correct? And Lode-runner doesn't lock up. From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Apr 9 12:49:46 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: BTI machines Re: [RANTISH] Programming Stupidity In-Reply-To: <199904091510.LAA00548@hiway1.exit109.com> References: <13442097286.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990409131816.00a71100@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 11:10 AM 4/9/99 -0400, John Ruschmeyer said something like: >> Wonderful quote from my boss, who's (supposed to be a professional programmer >> for Caterpillar): >> "You should use strings instead of integers. You can put bigger numbers in >> a string." > >Sounds a little like a BASIC I used to work with... > >My first job out of college was programming in BASIC-X, the proprietary >dialect used on the BTI-5000 and BTI-8000 minis. One of its features was >"string arithmetic" which allowed you to store arbitrary precision >numbers in strings and perform the normal mathematical functions. > >Example: > > 10 DIM A$(10), B$(10) > 20 A$="12345678.90" > 30 B$="34567890.10" > 40 A$=A$+B$ > 50 PRINT B$ > >Handy for big dollar calculations like Bill Gates' net worth or the >annual budget reconciliation. > >Out of curiousity, am I the only one on the list to have ever seen one >of these beasts? > >The 5000 (I think there were also 4000 and possibly 6000) systems were >small refrigerator-sized boxes that were used in turnkey apps like car >dealerships. There was one of these in Jamestown at the large Chevrolet dealer that was taken out of service in the late '80's. This was back in '90 or '91 before I was 'into' old computers. It was sort-of offered to me by a next-door neighbor who's brother had it stashed in a barn south of town. He worked at the Chevy dealership. I was lukewarm to it as it was said to be large and I would have had to keep it out in a damp, unheated garage. Very lousy for such gear as most of you know. Anyway, he gave me the make and model (which I forgot now, but I *think* it could have been a 4000) and I called BTI to see what it was and other info. BTI knew from the s/n I gave them the actual dealer who had owned it and other service info. The friendly fellow I talked with told me it was either HP 1000- or 2000-based hardware or was a clone of same. Again, I cannot recall for sure whether it was clone or actual HP iron. Do you, John, or anybody else know which it was? He told that they make systems that are mostly used in auto dealerships, which confirms what you'd learned John. If I got the machine they could offer some documentation if any was laying around their office. (Where can we find this type of friendly personality at any company nowadays?) The lead fell through as the neighbor got killed in a rather tragic auto accident while on his way to work early one morning. Left a pregnant young wife and 4-yr-old stepdaughter. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Apr 9 13:07:05 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: Mark-8 Computer - Alive and Ticking! In-Reply-To: <370E2E06.EA0241A6@rain.org> References: <000201be8244$5e78bab0$013da8c0@Corellian> <4.1.19990409100313.00a9ea00@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19990409135605.00aa8500@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:42 AM 4/9/99 -0700, Marvin said something like: > > >Christian Fandt wrote: >> >> Why? I'd like to see proof of that. That's a little unbelievable like some >> of those strange amounts bid on sort-of common stuff on ePay. > >I'll give you proof once the money order arrives. The top three bidders were Good luck, I'd like to see you get the bucks. He/she'll have to put-up or shut-up ;) >at $175, $190, and $190 and IIRC there were 19 bids. Since I have another Yes, it was interesting to see how one has to be faster than the other fellow when bidding on these type of auctions. Less than six minutes separating the top two. Does add a bit of excitement for the onlookers :) Gives you a chance to get the $190 if the winner backs out and the second-place finisher is actually serious. >copy, I was interested in seeing what would happen. SOmeone has also posted >on ebay the Radio-Electronics plans that you had to send away for, and it >will be *very* interesting to see what that brings. Indeed so. Hmmm, I could use the bucks (as I'm presently unemployed) so I have half a mind to put my old R-E collection up for auction and see what ensues. My wife is still looking for the other half of my mind . Thanks for the reply! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 9 13:13:01 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: [RANTISH] Programming Stupidity In-Reply-To: <13442097286.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > "You should use strings instead of integers. You can put bigger numbers in > a string." > > "In programming, it doesn't matter how well it runs or does it's job. The > bottom line is, 'can we sell it to someone?'" Sounds like management. Welcome to the real world, Daniel. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From spc at armigeron.com Fri Apr 9 13:16:26 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: [RANTISH] Programming Stupidity In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 9, 99 11:13:01 am Message-ID: <199904091816.OAA03541@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 828 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/ebb445ba/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 9 13:23:28 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: [RANTISH] Programming Stupidity In-Reply-To: <199904091324.GAA07829@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote: > You've already lost if you have to run Windoze whatever. I'd switch to > something more stable in a minute, but the sad part is that Windoze is > everywhere, so we have to teach our students to use it and the apps that > run on it, because that's what they will likely find in the real world.. So are you preparing your students for 1 or 2 years out, or are you preparing them for a lifetime? If you're just preparing them for the first few years of their career, keep teaching them windows. However, if you want to give them the advantage over others that will allow them to be more competitive, make more money and therefore get more girls (and boys) start teaching them on Linux boxes. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 9 13:31:24 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: OT was [RANTISH Programming Stupidity] In-Reply-To: <01BE8270.992ACE60.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Steve Robertson wrote: > So, how many billionaires has Linux created? I'm working on it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 9 13:49:20 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <002001be829c$bb048fe0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The TRS-80 could have been put out with (1) an 80x24 display rather than the > 16x64, it could have solidly supported double-density FD's (in the model 3) > and it could have operated at about 4MHz rather than the 2.-something it > used, and it could have switched in and out the ROM so it could run CP/M but > for the greed of Tandy Corp. It would have cost them an additional $5 and > change to put those features in their model 3, but they thought "well, we're > going to sell a million of these . . . " and decided they preferred having > the dollars. Had they gone the other way, they probably would have had the > "personal computer" market all to themselves. They had a huge distribution > network, a huge sales force, a huge service network, unlike any other > microcomputer manufacturer of the time. Within a year, Apple owned the > personal computer market, particularly with respect to businesses, even > though Radio Shack had better packaging by the time the Model 3 came out. > That was also about the time it became common to see the 80x24 displays, the > 8"disk drives, the nearly 4MHz Z-80 running CP/M, the extra 16K memory, etc. > on the Apple II. If Tandy had gone with the better design, which was on the > table, there probably would be no IBM PC today. This is a highly simplistic view of the early home computer market. He with the biggest dick didn't always go home with the babe. There was much more to the computer to entice someone to buy it than just the speed of the microprocessor. Available software and overall marketing effort played the bigger role, and Apple exploited this by advertising the figure of "Over 10,000 programs written for the Apple". As far as a comparison between the 6502 and Z80, its been argued over time and again, but the consensus is generally that each processor could perform some task faster than the other, and overall, applications running on both seemed to perform equally. Of course, when you involved subsystems like disk access, the Apple tended to have an advantage over some Z-80 systems (and even other 6502 systems). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 9 14:00:35 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: Old 6809-based games (was Re: Rotting away) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990408233401.00a28870@mail.30below.com> (message from Roger Merchberger on Thu, 08 Apr 1999 23:34:01 -0400) References: <3.0.1.32.19990408233401.00a28870@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <19990409190035.28448.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Also, is there a web (or other) reference as to what games used which > processors? I think several games used the Moto6809, and if I had my > druthers, I'd get a game based on that processor, as it's my favo[u]ite. Get a Qix, Star Wars, or Return of the Jedi. There were others, but these were the most notable 6809-based coinop games IMNSHO. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 9 14:04:49 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <199904091659.JAA04031@saul6.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > My other point is that I wonder if an "abort/retry/fail" message is as > useful as some people say it is. I guess that depends on the type of errors > each user tends to encounter. To the average end user, the "abort, retry fail" message may as well be a string of garbage like "dsfsd, asjh^34\, "(*p,.8IC?". Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Apr 9 14:21:47 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: [RANTISH] Programming Stupidity In-Reply-To: <199904091816.OAA03541@armigeron.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990409152147.009ec200@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner had spoken clearly: >It was thus said that the Great Sellam Ismail once stated: >> >> On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >> >> > "You should use strings instead of integers. You can put bigger numbers in >> > a string." > > Technically, that is correct (to a point). I have a program that >calculates e to some insane precision (based upon the work done by Woz on >the Apple ][ and published in Byte magazine) and the number could be >considered stored in a string. I disagree... this isn't correct _to a point_... this is correct. Of course, it does depend on the type of job you're doing, but just because it's different doesn't mean it's wrong, or slow. *All* numbers are stored as strings when programming in Perl. There's no worry for large number variables, and despite the math functions are a little slower than other languages, there's no conversion overhead for when you're printing those numbers out. As Perl is designed for information extraction and reporting, numbers being stored as a string is a *plus*. I'll *never* program in plain ol' Basic again when I need a quickie proggy to convert a CSV file or somesuch... I can finish a job in 1/3 the time with Perl, have it execute a little faster, and a lower incidence of errors (which are easier to find, BTW....) Just my NSHO, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Apr 9 14:22:54 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: Stan Veits book Message-ID: <01BE829C.D7B05840.steverob@hotoffice.com> Received Stan Veits book (from the Ebay auction) last night. Highly recommended. Steve Robertson - From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Apr 9 14:31:11 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 9, 99 12:04:49 pm Message-ID: <199904091931.MAA20864@saul2.u.washington.edu> Sellam Ismail wrote: > To the average end user, the "abort, retry fail" message may as well be a > string of garbage like "dsfsd, asjh^34\, "(*p,.8IC?". I mentioned that CP/M has similar capabilities. I didn't mention that it's more cryptic. A message simply appears: Bdos Err on A: Bad Sector (I may have the capitalization wrong) and the cursor sits there. You can hit Ctrl-C (which does a warm boot -- it quits the program; but the program may have wiped out the CCP (shell) so it loads a whole new copy of part of CP/M from the disk, which is even more fun on my machine since if the disk contains a different version of CP/M than the one in memory, then the machine may hang). Or you can hit Return to continue (I don't know if the program gets any indication that an error happened). The horrible disk noises that happen before the message appears, however, would tip anyone off that something is wrong. -- Derek From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 9 14:38:36 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some random thoughts: In an early (beta?) version of the Borland C compiler install program, they had icons for the error responses. For "Ignore", they had a 55MPH speed limit sign! For "Abort", they had a coat hanger! I'd bet that THOSE didn't last very long! In the earliest versions of MS-DOS, the choices were Anort, Retry, Ignore. Later, they added "Fail", and also permitted the OS to only include the choices that were relevant. That meant that when SMARTDRV's write caching hit an error, the ONLY possible choice was RETRY, or power cycle, since it was reporting an error in an operation that had previously been reported to the application as having been successfully completed! Kinda like when you tell your boss that you finished the report, but "left it at home on the kitchen table"; then when you run home and fire up the computer to START working on it, it won't boot. (compounded by Windoze SETUP installing and turning on SMARTDRV whether you like it or not. I told the Windoze 3.1 beta people at MICROS~1 that SMARTDRV's write caching was ultimately going to result in MAJOR product recalls; but they insited that THAT was a HARDWARE problem! Hence the 6.00 to 6.20 fiasco) The BIGGEST problem with the ARIF (Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail) interface is that it put the error on one line, and then the question of "what do you want to do about it?" on another line. (without ever asking the QUESTION!) It SHOULDA been one line! YES, that could have worked just fine in 40 column mode - just make the messages 40 characters long, and let 'em wrap. The result is that the luser sees a line that they understand, followed by another line they don't understand. They will then fixate on only the last line: "I've got another of those abort-retry-ignore errors!" "OK, what does it say on the line above that?" "abortretryignore" "and the line above that?" "abortretryignore" "and the line above that?" "abortretryignore" "and the line above that?" "abortretryignore" "and the line above that?" "Drive not ready" If the statement of the problem, and the request for choice of responses were to have been on one line, the user would have a harder time IGNORING the relatively meaningful portion of the error statement. In the cmdline version of OS/2, did they fix that? NO! They inserted an error NUMBER at the beginning of the error description, to absolutely solidify the luser's unwillingness to read the error message. So, have error messages been getting better or worse? Many MICROS~1 message now leave out those annoying details, such as WHAT went wrong. And the "OK" button is offensive to me. "Absolutely everything that you have done since your last system backup has been totally and irretrievably corrupted. OK?" No, it is NOT OK! I REFUSE to click OK to that! > To the average end user, the "abort, retry fail" message may as well be a > string of garbage like "dsfsd, asjh^34\, "(*p,.8IC?". From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Apr 9 17:36:45 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: NEC APC III Message-ID: <01be82d9$72ce7640$919ba6d1@the-general> I need a boot disk for an NEC APC III. I believe it has a 720k 5.25" floppy, and uses a special version of DOS 2.11. My question is: If I can't find a 720k 5.25" floppy (360k disks won't work), would I be able to replace it with a 720k 3.5" drive? ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 9 15:01:36 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4floppies) Message-ID: <004001be82c3$d823a1c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> In the late '70's, I think the microcomputer market was highly simplistic with respect to what it is today. Take a look at the comments I've imbedded in your text below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 12:58 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4floppies) >On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> The TRS-80 could have been put out with (1) an 80x24 display rather than the >> If Tandy had gone with the better design, which was on the >> table, there probably would be no IBM PC today. > >This is a highly simplistic view of the early home computer market. He >with the biggest dick didn't always go home with the babe. There was much >more to the computer to entice someone to buy it than just the speed of >the microprocessor. Available software and overall marketing effort >played the bigger role, and Apple exploited this by advertising the figure >of "Over 10,000 programs written for the Apple". Yes, that's true, but, the 4MHz+ (4.9152 MHz, actually) Z-80B with 64K of RAM, a 24x80-charcter display, double-density diskette interface that actually worked, built-in capability to install a hard disk, AND the ability to run CP/M right out of the box, in 1978-1979 e.g. at the fall '78 COMDEX, which was BEFORE there were "Over 10,000 programs written for the Apple" would have been hard to beat . . . particularly under the aegis of a nation-wide company with these facilities under one management already in place. Remember APPLE had to rely on small-time stores like Computerland for distribution, and their service, mostly indirect, was slow and costly. The things which seemed to make the Apple fit the business model the best (before Visicalc) was the 24x80-character display and the 8" diskette drives sitting next to it. With the aid of the Videx video display adapter and the Sorrento Valley Associates' 8" disk drive interface, the machine suddenly began to look like what people had come to expect when they learned about computers and how to use them. It's true that "He with the biggest dick didn't always go home with the babe" but you mustn't forget that in this case, the dick was overtly measured and advertised. Whereas the above described TRS80-III wouldn't have been the fastest on the market, it had the packaging and the ability to turn into much more computer for much less money than the Apple, though with the gradually and later not so gradual increase in Apple's market share, they were able to become somewhat more competitive in spite of the high cost of distribution and service. The way it turned out, Tandy Corp ended up with precisely the smallest, didn't it? A barely-over 2MHz processor which stroked memory more at about 1.5 microsecond per memory cycle??? It was obvious to everyone who used the Radio Shack model III that their computer was SLOW. The Z-80-card in the Apple was significantly (and noticeably) faster. The two machines otherwise occupied about the same desk space, and, aside from the stupid, Stupid, STUPID choice to leave the Tandy machine's display at 16 lines of 64 characters (about half of what was on a 24x80, and about what was on an Apple with the standard display), they were quite similar. Of course the Radio Shack machine was SLOW . . . >As far as a comparison between the 6502 and Z80, its been argued over time >and again, but the consensus is generally that each processor could >perform some task faster than the other, and overall, applications running >on both seemed to perform equally. Of course, when you involved >subsystems like disk access, the Apple tended to have an advantage over >some Z-80 systems (and even other 6502 systems). I don't know that the assertions you make here are correct, but I don't believe they're completely off-base. It's important to remember that if one computer is not at least ~2x the speed of another, most tasks will seemingly execute in more or less the same time as observed by a user at the console. If two are set side-by-side and compared, the difference in performance seldom amounts to the ratio of the clock speed or the ratio of the memory access time. Often the result is totally counterintuitive. (Meaning something's been overlooked!) Most of the time, it makes little difference. Whether it takes four hours or six to handle the weekly payroll doesn't matter very much if it's run at night. >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri Apr 9 14:59:26 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The "abort/retry/fail" message means I forgot to push the floppy in... George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > > > My other point is that I wonder if an "abort/retry/fail" message is as > > useful as some people say it is. I guess that depends on the type of errors > > each user tends to encounter. > > To the average end user, the "abort, retry fail" message may as well be a > string of garbage like "dsfsd, asjh^34\, "(*p,.8IC?". > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 9 15:11:48 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 In-Reply-To: <199904091931.MAA20864@saul2.u.washington.edu> References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990409130602.00b703f0@mcmanis.com> At 12:31 PM 4/9/99 -0700, Derek Peschel wrote: >I mentioned that CP/M has similar capabilities. I didn't mention that it's >more cryptic. A message simply appears: > >Bdos Err on A: Bad Sector This only occurred if your BIOS was too stupid. In the BIOS I wrote for the 16FDC (Cromemco) when a disk eror was "hard" (that is some number of retries failed to achieve a successful read) I sent a message to the console asking the user what they wanted to do at that point, they could: 1) return zeros 2) return the error code and get the BDOS message 3) Warmstart 4) Reboot 5) Try again --Chuck From max82 at surfree.com Fri Apr 9 14:07:45 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 In-Reply-To: <990408203159.20c000de@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Apr 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >I suspect when you say "MFM" you mean "all the soft-sectored data storage >schemes descended from the original IBM 3740 (FM) standard", in which case >you're right. So, does that mean that those quarter-track schemes used for copy protection on the Apple II could also be implemented on a PC or Macintosh disk? The reason why I ask is because I've never heard of such a practice. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Fri Apr 9 15:18:31 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 Message-ID: <990409161831.20c0015d@trailing-edge.com> >On Thu, 8 Apr 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >>I suspect when you say "MFM" you mean "all the soft-sectored data storage >>schemes descended from the original IBM 3740 (FM) standard", in which case >>you're right. >So, does that mean that those quarter-track schemes used for copy >protection on the Apple II could also be implemented on a PC or >Macintosh disk? The reason why I ask is because I've never heard of such a >practice. I think my statement is entirely unrelated to your question. The Apple ][ DOS 3.2/3.3 sector format, while it follows conceptually the same ideas as the IBM 3740 standard in that they are both ways of recording blocks of data on floppy disks and both encode the track and sector number in the header, is not by any stretch compatible with it. On an Apple Disk ][, you have complete control over the stepper phases, so quarter- and half-tracking is possible. (You can also blow out the Apple's power supply by switching the phases on and off at a certain "bad" rate, too!) The 34-pin Shugart SA400-style interface used for floppies in PC's doesn't allow half- or quarter-track stepping, though you could imagine trying to read or write something while rapidly stepping in/stepping out. If you want more information, I highly recommend that you read the Shugart SA400 interface documents, or the interface documents of a drive with a similar interface (i.e. the TEAC datasheets, which are also very complete.) I don't know of any documentation of the Macintosh 3.5" floppy interface. If someone could point me towards the relevant documents (or even the part numbers they claim to describe) I'd be quite happy! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From spc at armigeron.com Fri Apr 9 15:16:15 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 9, 99 12:38:36 pm Message-ID: <199904092016.QAA06570@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4577 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/134ac7bc/attachment.ksh From max82 at surfree.com Fri Apr 9 14:22:53 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <000201be8252$8892be00$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >My contempt for Apple begins and ends with their total disregard for the >value of your data. If you wrote to their floppies, especially if your Remember that the apple was designed for fun, and it was not originally expected to be such a phenomenal success. I'm sure the Apple /// fixes some of these problems (or would fix them if it worked to begin with :) --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 9 15:31:08 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <004001be82c3$d823a1c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: In other words, if RS were to have released their Model FOUR at about the time that they came out with their model ONE, then they might have had more of a competitive advantage. Hmmm. The RCA TV set design that RS used for a monitor for the model 1 was NOT really adequate for 80x24 display. (YES, I've done it.) Double density was NOT readily achievable in 1978. And the poor quality double density of the model 3 was comparable to the rest of the industry. And RADIO SHACK was NOT capable of being THAT much of a technology leader! OTOH, when RS came out with the model 3 a few years later, that WOULD have been an appropriate time to make ALL of the model 4 changes, including revising the memory map (to permit CP/M), 80x24 display, Ctrl key, etc. Now, if intel were to have come out with the 233 Pentium in the 80s... If Apple were to have come out with the Mac in the 70s... If IBM were to have come out with the PC in the 60s,... If Windoze were reliable,... On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > In the late '70's, I think the microcomputer market was highly simplistic > with respect to what it is today. Take a look at the comments I've imbedded > in your text below. > > >> The TRS-80 could have been put out with (1) an 80x24 display rather than > the > > > > >> If Tandy had gone with the better design, which was on the > >> table, there probably would be no IBM PC today. > > Yes, that's true, but, the 4MHz+ (4.9152 MHz, actually) Z-80B with 64K of > RAM, a 24x80-charcter display, double-density diskette interface that > actually worked, built-in capability to install a hard disk, AND the ability > to run CP/M right out of the box, in 1978-1979 e.g. at the fall '78 COMDEX, > which was BEFORE there were "Over 10,000 programs written for the Apple" > would have been hard to beat . . . particularly under the aegis of a > nation-wide company with these facilities under one management already in > place. Remember APPLE had to rely on small-time stores like Computerland > for distribution, and their service, mostly indirect, was slow and costly. > > The things which seemed to make the Apple fit the business model the best > (before Visicalc) was the 24x80-character display and the 8" diskette drives > sitting next to it. With the aid of the Videx video display adapter and the > Sorrento Valley Associates' 8" disk drive interface, the machine suddenly > began to look like what people had come to expect when they learned about > computers and how to use them. I wasn't aware that the SVA drive ever had significant market share; certainly not enough for IT to have been what made the ][ popular. > It's true that "He with the biggest dick didn't always go home with the > babe" but you mustn't forget that in this case, the dick was overtly > measured and advertised. Whereas the above described TRS80-III wouldn't > have been the fastest on the market, it had the packaging and the ability to > turn into much more computer for much less money than the Apple, though with > the gradually and later not so gradual increase in Apple's market share, > they were able to become somewhat more competitive in spite of the high cost > of distribution and service. The way it turned out, Tandy Corp ended up > with precisely the smallest, didn't it? A barely-over 2MHz processor which > stroked memory more at about 1.5 microsecond per memory cycle??? It was > obvious to everyone who used the Radio Shack model III that their computer > was SLOW. The Z-80-card in the Apple was significantly (and noticeably) > faster. The two machines otherwise occupied about the same desk space, and, > aside from the stupid, Stupid, STUPID choice to leave the Tandy machine's > display at 16 lines of 64 characters (about half of what was on a 24x80, and > about what was on an Apple with the standard display), they were quite > similar. Of course the Radio Shack machine was SLOW . . . From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 9 15:34:50 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On Thu, 8 Apr 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >I suspect when you say "MFM" you mean "all the soft-sectored data storage > >schemes descended from the original IBM 3740 (FM) standard", in which case > >you're right. > So, does that mean that those quarter-track schemes used for copy > protection on the Apple II could also be implemented on a PC or > Macintosh disk? The reason why I ask is because I've never heard of such a > practice. The PC (and TRS-80) process all of the disk I/O through a "Floppy disk controller" chip. Which doesn't permit the stepping weirdities, but does permit some other ways to deliberately misrecord the disk for copy protection systems. From dlw at trailingedge.com Fri Apr 9 15:50:45 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: [OT] <10 yo DG Aviion In-Reply-To: References: <370969E8.641269EC@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Apr 5, 99 06:56:56 pm Message-ID: <199904092047.PAA16597@trailingedge.com> I know this system isn't 10 years old yet, but a company I use to work for gave me a 88000 based Data General Aviion. I believe it is an AV 4625 model if I'm reading the back right. DG's site only talks about P-II and P-III based Aviions with nothing about the earlier 88000 based ones. Anyone have any web site pointers or info on these for me? I'm currently hitting each of the main search sites without much luck. Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 9 15:48:25 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: NEC APC III In-Reply-To: <01be82d9$72ce7640$919ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > I need a boot disk for an NEC APC III. I believe it has a 720k 5.25" > floppy, and uses a special version of DOS 2.11. My question is: If I can't > find a 720k 5.25" floppy (360k disks won't work), would I be able to replace > it with a 720k 3.5" drive? With a few exceptions (and I doubt that the APC III would be one of the exceptions), the 720K 3.5" can simply be cabled to replace the 720K 5.25". The original design of it was intended to permit that. But that doesn't solve your need for a boot disk. In an earlier message, you mentioned that your current boot disk is "Stoned". If so, a bit of work with a sector editor might fix it. Try to resurrect the 2.11 boot disk that you have. MS-DOS 2.11 was the version that MICROS~1 provided for companies that needed/wanted to customize for special hardware, such as 720K drives. PC-DOS didn't support 720K until 3.20. Previously (MS-DOS 2.00), sometimes only MODE.COM, and sometimes FORMAT.COM, varied from one brand of machine to another. But in 2.11, IO.SYS might be significantly altered. From max82 at surfree.com Fri Apr 9 14:50:08 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: [RANTISH] Programming Stupidity In-Reply-To: <13442097286.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >Is it just me, or is that just plain wrong? Please say it's not only me... >I hate being alone, 'cause that means I'm right and everyone else is wrong. I think we all know how you feel...perhaps, when some of the more dedicated computer geeks die, they go to a place free of bureaucracy. Bill Gates and similar scoundrels would go to a place reminiscent of the CIA. Hey, I can wish, can't I? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 9 15:54:31 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <199904092016.QAA06570@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Apr 9, 99 04:16:15 pm Message-ID: <199904092054.NAA28278@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 638 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/8afebcdc/attachment.ksh From max82 at surfree.com Fri Apr 9 14:52:02 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: Classic (computer literacy textbook) Message-ID: I have the teacher's edition of 'Computer Fundamentals with BASIC programming', copyright 1986. It's in the form of pages to be inserted into a binder. Does anyone want this? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Apr 9 18:57:23 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: NEC APC III Message-ID: <01be82e4$b61d9920$bc8ea6d1@the-general> -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 1:51 PM Subject: Re: NEC APC III >With a few exceptions (and I doubt that the APC III would be one of the >exceptions), the 720K 3.5" can simply be cabled to replace the 720K 5.25". >The original design of it was intended to permit that. > Probably not. > >But that doesn't solve your need for a boot disk. In an earlier message, >you mentioned that your current boot disk is "Stoned". If so, a bit of >work with a sector editor might fix it. > Yeah - it's got the "Stoned" virus on it ( I think >Try to resurrect the 2.11 boot disk that you have. It's the HD - I can't access it - it starts to boot, says "MS-DOS 2.11", then comes up with an error (can't remember what, and the computer is at my school), and locks. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 >MS-DOS 2.11 was the version that MICROS~1 provided for companies that >needed/wanted to customize for special hardware, such as 720K drives. >PC-DOS didn't support 720K until 3.20. >Previously (MS-DOS 2.00), sometimes only MODE.COM, and sometimes >FORMAT.COM, varied from one brand of machine to another. >But in 2.11, IO.SYS might be significantly altered. > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 9 17:16:33 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: OT: Microsoft, again! Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990409171633.4a4fccd0@intellistar.net> >Subject: Microsoft, again! >Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:23:12 -0400 > >Bucks For Bugs >By Randy Whitted, TechWeb contributor > >Microsoft is setting a dangerous precedent by announcing the next Windows 98 >"service pack" -- read: bug fix release -- will cost users $89. > >What we're seeing here is the first instance in the software industry of a >company charging a significant sum to, hopefully, improve a product that >didn't work right in the first place. > >As much as I'd like to deny it, what Apple, and even Linux developers, do to >innovate in the software industry pales in comparison to the big Kahuna. >Microsoft sets the status quo, which is why watching its moves, even if >we're not customers, is wise. > >While I'm not privy to Microsoft's motives, I can guess the company's >thinking goes something like this: "We spent a good deal of time and money >fixing these problems, and we want to be compensated for our efforts." PC >users should then say, "We spent a good deal of money on your product, which >didn't work as you said it would, and we'd like the thing to work right at >your expense." > >But here's the catch: Did Microsoft promise to deliver a version of Win 98 >that would be bug-free? Do any software developers say they release bug-free >software? Of course not. They know, as do consumers, that software will >always have problems, glitches, performance issues, and some bugs. No one is >immune from releasing buggy software. It's a fact of life. > >However, how a company deals with its bugs is the true test of a winner or >loser. And quite simply, charging users for a bug fix is a dumb move. > >Imagine if Apple tried to pull this off. There would be a mass defection, >public scrutiny, a stock price plunge, and enough ridicule to ruin >everything the iMac accomplished. > >That is why Apple, shortly after confirming bugs in Mac OS 8.5.1, released a >bug-fix patch that could be download for free. Those fixes were subsequently >incorporated into later shipments of 8.5 -- it's called slip-streaming. > >It should be noted, however, that Apple's forthcoming Veronica -- Mac OS 8.6 >-- is not a bug fix. Sure, it includes several bug fixes, some new drivers, >and enhancements, but it is an updated version of the operating system that >also offers new features and functions. Because it is an upgrade, Apple is >not charging full price. Mac OS 8.6 is expected to be free for recent 8.5 >buyers, cost about $20 for a CD, and free when downloaded from the Internet. > >So, perhaps Microsoft, in its clumsy way, is just putting the wrong spin on >this whole service-pack issue. My advice is the company should call it >"Windows April 98," ship it in August, and tout the release as having >several performance enhancements instead of just bug fixes. At least the >consumer could imagine for their $89, Windows was working better than >before, instead of simply working the way it should have been in the first >place. > >The implications of letting Microsoft get away with this could be >significant for the sectors of the software industry in which there is still >competition. To me, Microsoft is saying it still doesn't believe there is >any alternative to Windows, and as the dominant OS provider, whatever its >says goes. Consumers, the ball is in your court. Linux is free. The Mac OS >is polished and ready. Make your move. > >Randy Whitted is a copy writer/technical adviser at Studeo, a marketing and >communications agency in Provo, Utah. The opinions expressed here are >strictly his own. > >http://www.techweb.com/ > > http://img.cmpnet.com/tw/newsletters/blank.gif > >http://img.cmpnet.com/tw/newsletters/blank.gif > >http://img.cmpnet.com/tw/newsletters/blank.gif > > http://img.cmpnet.com/tw/newsletters/scoop-bottom.gif > > http://img.cmpnet.com/tw/newsletters/arrowright-gray.gif > > http://www.techweb.com > From spc at armigeron.com Fri Apr 9 16:19:31 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <199904092054.NAA28278@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 9, 99 01:54:31 pm Message-ID: <199904092119.RAA08060@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 456 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/bc6da268/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Fri Apr 9 16:31:33 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: [OT] <10 yo DG Aviion In-Reply-To: <199904092047.PAA16597@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, David Williams wrote: > I know this system isn't 10 years old yet, but a company I use to > work for gave me a 88000 based Data General Aviion. I believe it is > an AV 4625 model if I'm reading the back right. This is probably one of the multi-processor machines, and is in a deskside configuration, if I'm guessing correctly. I've got an AV 310CD that I'm currently avoiding resurrecting (I have to order a new NVRAM, which requires I put money behind my VISA check card, and I'm not even certain that this will fix what ails the machine). > DG's site only talks about P-II and P-III based Aviions with nothing > about the earlier 88000 based ones. DG seem to have that philosophy, yes. They have an odd market presence. > Anyone have any web site pointers or info on these for me? I'm > currently hitting each of the main search sites without much luck. I didn't have much luck either. Apparently there are still a few Aviion wonks hanging about comp.sys.m88k, but what little traffic it gets these days is mostly about MVME machines running BSD. I also hear that there is the occasional DG/UX traffic on the SVR4 group, although I haven't checked this resource out as I have yet to get the OS running on my box. Let us know if you find anything. ok r. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 9 16:44:28 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <199904092119.RAA08060@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Apr 9, 99 05:19:31 pm Message-ID: <199904092144.OAA11764@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 891 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/5a65afdf/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Fri Apr 9 16:41:15 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <199904092144.OAA11764@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 9, 99 02:44:28 pm Message-ID: <199904092141.RAA08595@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 285 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/f78662cf/attachment.ksh From fpp at concentric.net Fri Apr 9 17:06:01 1999 From: fpp at concentric.net (Paul Passmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <000601be82d5$28dd76c0$15f8adce@paul> > Yes, that's true, but, the 4MHz+ (4.9152 MHz, actually) Z-80B with 64K of > RAM, a 24x80-charcter display, double-density diskette interface that > actually worked, built-in capability to install a hard disk, AND the ability > to run CP/M right out of the box, in 1978-1979 e.g. at the fall '78 COMDEX, > which was BEFORE there were "Over 10,000 programs written for the Apple" Would be a good argument but; Comdex did not exist 1978. There was The West Coast Computer Faire (San Jose, CA), or NCC show (Anaheim, CA I believe in 79) mostly heavy iron. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 9 17:26:41 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <000601be82d5$28dd76c0$15f8adce@paul> Message-ID: <4.1.19990409152533.00af5a70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> And lets not forget "PerComp" the Personal Computer show where Bill Gates offered me a job in 1978 to port BASIC to the Digital group system and I turned him down ... At 03:06 PM 4/9/99 -0700, Paul Passmore wrote: >Would be a good argument but; Comdex did not exist 1978. There was The >West Coast Computer Faire (San Jose, CA), or NCC show (Anaheim, CA I believe >in 79) mostly heavy iron. From dlw at trailingedge.com Fri Apr 9 17:28:47 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: [OT] <10 yo DG Aviion Message-ID: <199904092225.RAA17335@trailingedge.com> >This is probably one of the multi-processor machines, and is in a >deskside configuration, if I'm guessing correctly. Correct. It is in a tower-style case and has a basic terminal for the console. I worked on this box a few years ago when I was at this company and seem to recall it had something like dual M88100s. >DG seem to have that philosophy, yes. They have an odd market >presence. Strange isn't it? :-) >Let us know if you find anything. I'll check those newsgroups. Isn't there a DG newsgroup? I'll have to check. So far about all I've found are some dealers selling memory or re-selling old boxes. I did find one guy who says he has a couple of boxes too and is trying to get enough info to begin porting Linux to them. That's about it so far. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Apr 9 17:09:14 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: [OT] <10 yo DG Aviion Message-ID: <19990409.170920.237.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Try the Newsgroup: comp.sys.m88k Good Luck! (You're gonna need it!) On Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:50:45 -0500 "David Williams" writes: >I know this system isn't 10 years old yet, but a company I use to >work for gave me a 88000 based Data General Aviion. I believe it is >an AV 4625 model if I'm reading the back right. DG's site only >talks about P-II and P-III based Aviions with nothing about the >earlier 88000 based ones. Anyone have any web site pointers or >info on these for me? I'm currently hitting each of the main search >sites without much luck. > >Thanks. > > >----- >David Williams - Computer Packrat >dlw@trailingedge.com >http://www.trailingedge.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 13:02:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 In-Reply-To: <990408225601.20c000de@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Apr 8, 99 10:56:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1449 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/1926d2e8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 13:09:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: Q-bus pinout In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990408205626.0092a800@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 8, 99 09:02:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1315 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/20ede547/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 13:23:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: homemade computer for fun and experience... In-Reply-To: <199904090521.BAA12114@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgocable.net" at Apr 9, 99 01:26:35 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2501 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/ae84bee0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 13:30:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <000201be8252$8892be00$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 8, 99 11:39:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1640 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/914ee53e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 14:48:02 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Apr 9, 99 08:53:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 698 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/077d4b5d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 14:55:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture In-Reply-To: <199904091453.AAA12305@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> from "Huw Davies" at Apr 10, 99 00:53:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 425 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/b8a4df41/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 15:04:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <002001be829c$bb048fe0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 9, 99 09:21:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2450 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/551de613/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Fri Apr 9 17:43:47 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: [OT] <10 yo DG Aviion In-Reply-To: <199904092225.RAA17335@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, David Williams wrote: > I'll check those newsgroups. Isn't there a DG newsgroup? So far as I've been able to tell, there isn't a DG newsgroup of any sort (hardware or software). It's that "odd" market presence at work, I think. Nobody I can think of buys DG kit, save the US Forest Service, and they are moving away from their Eclipse installations (to IBM kit, I believe). And yet.. this stuff is out there. I never see it for sale. DG have existed for thirty years selling SOMETHING. > I'll have to check. So far about all I've found are some dealers > selling memory or re-selling old boxes. That's the extent of what I was able to unearth. That and to summarily proceed to be shocked at the prices they seemed to be able to get away with asking for this ancient cruft. > I did find one guy who says he has a couple of boxes too and is trying > to get enough info to begin porting Linux to them. That's about it so > far. I have a large quantity of OS and software tapes that I would be ok with making limited copies of (as they're out of their support life), especially as there is something about people porting linux to oddball stuff like this that already had some sort of UNIX OS established on it that really squicks me. But that's a topic for discussion in other forums. ok r. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Apr 9 17:48:53 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:58 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <19990409224853.24385.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Oh. You're one of *those* ... okay. > > -spc (Hate Perl ... okay, so I'm a bit of a language snob 8-) I am presently paying for my classic computer hobby by crafting perl for 50+ hours per week at consultant's wages. I *love* perl! -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 9 18:00:57 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990408205626.0092a800@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990409155040.00cf0b30@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 07:09 PM 4/9/99 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >What's connected to what? In particular are there any cards in the second >b/p and is it jumpered to the one that works? It could be that the +5V >line is totally O/C and that 1.5V is coming via parasitic diodes, >termination resistors, etc from logic lines. Actually I did as suggested and unplugged the wiring harness that plugs into the PSU and then the back plane. I put my DMM on the connector pins on the PSU and the 5V line shows the same behaviour (higher value which quickly drops to 1.5v) I've got both jumpers pulled and all the cards in the front back plane and the system runs (caveat some issues on the Front panel itself such as the 'STATUS' and 'STATE' displays aren't correct) >Check the wiring in the PSU _and_ the wiring in the harness to the >backplane. Take the backplane out if necessary. The fault appears to be inside the PSU wiring harness somewhere. >[Just to confirm : This is the linear PSU that mounts down the left side >of the cabinet, right?] Yes, and at this point it has been removed and is sitting on my test bench. Access to the wiring harness is a pain in the fundament! This thing must weight 75lbs all by itself. My current area of investigation is into some of the crimp on connectors on the filter caps to see if perhaps they've oxidized. On another tack, the chassis I got did not come with any covers. I don't know if this is "standard" or not. (I know the PDP-5 isn't designed to be run outside of the rack its built into) The later 8's like the /f and /m in the "mini" cases (one backplane) are covered when they are out of the rack and so that has left me curious. I'm probably going to build a display rack for it anyway with clear sides so that folks can "see" the innards without risking getting fingers in them. Thanks again Tony, --Chuck P.S. I'd like to thank Allison for relating the story of bringing up her 8/F since it inspired me to move forward on this project (code named "FrankenEight" as it is a PDP-8 built out of parts exhumed from dead 8's or other mysterious sources ...) From dlw at trailingedge.com Fri Apr 9 17:59:56 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: [OT] <10 yo DG Aviion In-Reply-To: <19990409.170920.237.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <199904092256.RAA17542@trailingedge.com> On 9 Apr 99, at 17:09, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > Try the Newsgroup: comp.sys.m88k I'll try posting something there. Looks like a basically dead group on my news server. > Good Luck! > (You're gonna need it!) Hmm could be... Actaully, the box is working fine. I just want to keep it that way and have no doc or install media for it which doesn't make the "admin" part of me feel at ease. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 9 18:01:59 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <199904092301.AA25365@world.std.com> was SLOW. The Z-80-card in the Apple was significantly (and noticeably) <> faster. The two machines otherwise occupied about the same desk space, a Than the TRS80, every thing was faster. Next to my S100 CPM crate with a real 4mhz z80 and no wait state memory they were both slow. <> aside from the stupid, Stupid, STUPID choice to leave the Tandy machine' <> display at 16 lines of 64 characters (about half of what was on a 24x80, As it works 64wide was more useful for word processing than 32 or 40. Allison From dlw at trailingedge.com Fri Apr 9 18:07:39 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: [OT] <10 yo DG Aviion In-Reply-To: References: <199904092225.RAA17335@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <199904092304.SAA17624@trailingedge.com> On 9 Apr 99, at 18:43, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > So far as I've been able to tell, there isn't a DG newsgroup of any sort > (hardware or software). It's that "odd" market presence at work, I think. Not a DG newsgroup in sight on my server. Would have thought there'd be one at least. > Nobody I can think of buys DG kit, save the US Forest Service, and they > are moving away from their Eclipse installations (to IBM kit, I believe). > And yet.. this stuff is out there. I never see it for sale. DG have > existed for thirty years selling SOMETHING. Well, I also have a Nova but it is just the case. No boards inside at all. I'd love to find some and bring it back to life but don't hold much hope. :-( > That and to summarily proceed to be shocked at the prices they seemed to > be able to get away with asking for this ancient cruft. Yes, one wanted almost $3000 for a similar but smaller model of the system I picked up today. Surprised me. > I have a large quantity of OS and software tapes that I would be ok with > making limited copies of (as they're out of their support life), > especially as there is something about people porting linux to oddball > stuff like this that already had some sort of UNIX OS established on it > that really squicks me. My main interest in a Linux or other *NIX port would be the fact that I don't have install media for this system. If my drive dies, I'm out of luck. If I could arrange some backup copies from you then I have less need for some alternate OS. Of course the other reason would be the lack of updates. Which version of DG/UX it has I don't recall at the moment. After I get it home tonight I can hook it to my network and bring it back up and check it out. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 9 18:08:03 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: FM, MFM, and GCR channel codes (was Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive) In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990409230803.29961.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > I thought the whole point of MFM was to reduce the number of flux > transitions per (user) data bit. An FM bit cell _always_ has a clock > transition, and may have a data transition as well. MFM removes some of > the 'wasted' clock transitions. Right. MFM only inserts clock transitions when there are two consecutive zero user data bits. In the space that can accomodate eight flux transitions [*], the different schemes pack different numbers of data bits: user data bits per 8 figure channel potential flux of code transitions merit FM 4 0.5 MFM 8 1.0 Apple 13 sect 5 0.625 Apple 16 sect 6 0.75 Dick wrote: > One interesting thing about the Apple GCR modulation format is that it > essentially was a "double-density" technique. Tim wrote: > Eric said the same thing, and I disagree with you both. To me (and all I said no such thing. I said that Apple used FM for the address fields, and that the GCR they used for data fields was more efficient than FM, and less efficient than MFM. There are other GCR/RLL codes that are more efficient than MFM; some common ones have figures of merit around 1.5. For modern hard drives, even RLL [**] has been superceded by PRML. Eric [*] Sometimes referred to as channel bits, which causes confusion with user data bits. Also, MFM causes confusion because in the time/space that can accomodate a maximum of eight flux transitions, it uses no more than eight, but they may be separated by the minimum time, 1.5x, or 2x that time. [**] Don't confuse RLL as a channel code with so-called "RLL drives". For many years, all SCSI and IDE drives internally used RLL channel codes. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 9 18:20:26 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <199904092320.AA07186@world.std.com> Hi, I managed to borrow a hard drive with OS/2 warp on it from someone. I want to copy it onto my own drive. How do I do this? I know that in DOS, I would do a sys command to make the drive bootable. There is no sys command here. What should I do? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From max82 at surfree.com Fri Apr 9 17:22:46 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <199904092144.OAA11764@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >I'm still kinda stuck on Pascal, myself. But I loves Perl. Perl is essentially C for lazy people. I like it too :) However, I consider it a very impure language and for this reason would prefer not to use it for anything besides shell/CGI scripts. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From max82 at surfree.com Fri Apr 9 17:24:27 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >Actually, that's what the Apple Disk II does. On reset, it steps the head >out enough times so that even if it's at the innermost track it'll get to >the outermost ones. THat's the 'banging' you hear on a reset. So _that's_ why they're so damn noisy! Has anyone ever made a modification to make it a bit more graceful? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 9 18:26:40 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <199904092301.AA25365@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > My dog, don't tell DEC that or intel. Sorry, I should have said that it was not readily achievable for RADIO SHACK, not that it wasn't possible. It took RS a few more years before they were ready to have MFM in one of their consumer level machines. RS's early FM had some data separation problems; I assume that that was due to trying to keep the cost too low? From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 9 18:37:45 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 9, 99 06:22:46 pm Message-ID: <199904092337.QAA27658@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 828 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/5810172a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 18:21:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 In-Reply-To: <990409161831.20c0015d@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM" at Apr 9, 99 04:18:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1302 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990410/3e7fc594/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 17:57:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: [RANTISH] Programming Stupidity In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 9, 99 11:23:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1747 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/9f5d568a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 18:02:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 9, 99 03:07:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1378 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990410/6d21c80f/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 9 18:48:05 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) In-Reply-To: <199904092320.AA07556@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990409164644.00a8f790@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 07:20 PM 4/9/99 -0400, Allison wrote: >Compare to a real top [8/E] for vent slots as needed. Ahh but that's the rub. I don't have a top to compare too. Megan, was that a "long" 8/e or a "short" 8/e you recovered in your haul? If it was a long one could you take a couple of pictures of the cover for me? --Chuck From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 9 18:49:59 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 9, 99 09:04:34 pm Message-ID: <199904092350.QAA27828@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1152 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990409/8a370f17/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Fri Apr 9 19:10:30 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) Message-ID: <199904100010.AA08117@world.std.com> Chuck McManis wrote: >Megan, was that a "long" 8/e or a "short" 8/e you recovered in your haul? >If it was a long one could you take a couple of pictures of the cover for >me? What do you mean by a "long" 8/e... I thought the long box was the 8/e and the short one (what Allison has) an 8/f. I seem to remember the cover of mine has vent holes... sure, I'll take pictures of it, inside and out... maybe tomorrow. After Allison and I return from yet another trip to collect hardware... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Fri Apr 9 19:14:50 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: FM, MFM, and GCR channel codes (was Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive) Message-ID: <990409201450.20c0015d@trailing-edge.com> >Dick wrote: >> One interesting thing about the Apple GCR modulation format is that it >> essentially was a "double-density" technique. >Tim wrote: >> Eric said the same thing, and I disagree with you both. To me (and all >I said no such thing. I said that Apple used FM for the address fields, >and that the GCR they used for data fields was more efficient than FM, and >less efficient than MFM. I think you're confused as to what I was disagreeing with, and that's probably my fault for not explaining myself more clearly. I was disagreeing with what I believe to be your assertion, Eric, that you can take any FM data channel, pump about 50% more data through it with GCR, and pump twice as much data through it with MFM. There are twice as many places in a MFM data stream where a transition *may* take place, as compared to a FM data stream at the same data rate. The maximum number of transitions per time remains the same. At first glance, this might lead you to believe that the bandwidth needed for a FM encoding that gives you a data rate of 250kHz will also support a MFM encoding at 500kHz. It isn't this simple; if you do a Fourier transform of the MFM stream you'll see that you do indeed more bandwidth for MFM. On the other hand, a GCR data stream over the same circuit will give you a data rate of 375 kHz or so (depending on the details of the GCR) without requiring more bandwidth than the 250kHz FM channel. (Admittedly the GCR distribution of energy in that bandwidth will be more even than the FM distribution of energy - but that's precisely why you're able to pump more data through.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 9 19:16:42 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <199904100016.AA12046@world.std.com> In late 1979 NEC sampled the 765, WD had also been building the 1793. >Chuck McManis wrote: >>Megan, was that a "long" 8/e or a "short" 8/e you recovered in your haul? >>If it was a long one could you take a couple of pictures of the cover for >>me? >What do you mean by a "long" 8/e... I thought the long box was the >8/e and the short one (what Allison has) an 8/f. I know that folks here have traiditionally objected to outside FAQ's when instead the issue could be resolved by dozens of E-mails, but in this case Doug Jone's *PDP-8 Summary of Models and Options* answers the question of 8/E vs 8/F quite nicely: Subject: What is a PDP-8/E? Date of introduction: 1970 (during or before August). Date of withdrawal: 1978. Also known as: PDP-8/OEM Industrial-8 (with a red color scheme) LAB-8/E (with a green color scheme) Price: $6,500 Technology: SSI and MSI TTL logic were used on these boards, and the entire CPU fit on 3 boards. Nominally, these were DEC M-series flip Chip modules, but in a new large format, quad-high (10.5 inch), extended-length (9 inch, including card-edge connector, excluding handles). The terms used for board height and length are based on the original working assumption that all flip-chips were plugged horizontally into a vertially mounted card-edge connector. On the PDP-8/E, the cards were plugged vertically down into a horizontally mounted connector, so many users incorrectly refer to these boards as quad-wide double-high. Interconnection between boards was through a new bus, the OMNIBUS. This eliminated the need for a wire-wrapped backplane, since all slots in the bus were wired identically. A new line of peripheral interfaces was produced, most being single cards that could be plugged directly into the inside the main enclosure. These included a set of posibus adapters allowing use of older peripherals on the new machine. Interboard connectors were needed for some multiboard options, including the CPU and memory subsystems. These used standard 36-pin backplane connectors on the opposite side of the board from the backplane. Some boards, notably memory boards, had a total of 8 connector fingers, 4 for the omnibus and 4 for interboard connectors. The core memory cycle time was 1.2 or 1.4 microseconds, depending on whether a read-modify-write cycle was involved (a jumper would slow all cycles to 1.4 microseconds). A 4K core plane was packaged on a single quad-wide double-high board, with most of the drive electronics packed onto two adjacent boards. Soon after the machine was introduced, an 8K core plane was released in the same format. Reason for introduction: The cost of the PDP-8/I and PDP-8/L was dominated by the cost of the interconnect wiring, and this cost was high as a result of the use of small circuit boards. By packing a larger number of chips per board, similar function could be attained in a smaller volume because less interboard communication was required. The PDP-8/E exploited this to achieve a new low in cost while attaining a new high in performance. Reason for withdrawal: This machine was slowly displaced by the PDP-8/A as the market for large PDP-8 configurations declined in the face of pressure from 16 bit mini and microcomputers. Compatability: As with the PDP-8/I and PDP-8/L, there are no limits on the combination of IAC and rotate instructions. Unlike the early machines, basic Group 3 OPR operations for loading and storing the MQ register work even if there is no extended arithmetic element. Finally, a new instruction was added, BSW; this swaps the left and right bytes in AC, and is encoded as a Group 1 OPR instruction using the "double the shift count bit". An odd quirk of this machine is that the RAL RAR combination ands the AC with the op-code, and the RTR RTL combination does an effective address computation loading the high 5 bits of AC with the current page and the lower bits of AC with the address field of the instruction itself! The EAE has a new mode, mode B. Previous EAE designs were single-mode. Mode B supports a large set of 24 bit operations and a somewhat more rational set of shift operations than the standard EAE. All prior EAE designs would hang on the microcoded CLA NMI (clear/normalize) instruction applied to a nonzero AC. This instruction is redefined to be a mode changing instruction on the 8/E. Standard configuration: A CPU with 4K of memory, plus 110 baud current loop teletype interface. Both a rack-mount table-top versions were sold (both 9" high by 19" wide by 21" deep). The rack mount version was mounted on slides for easy maintenance. The OMNIBUS backplane was on the bottom, with boards inserted from the top. The PDP-8/OEM had a turn-key front panel, no core, 256 words of ROM and 256 words of RAM, and was priced at $2800 in lots of 100. The standard OMNIBUS backplane had 20 slots, with no fixed assignments, but the following conventional uses; certain board sets were jumpered together (shown with brackets) and therefore were required to be adjacent to each other: -- KC8E programmer's console (lights and switches) -- M8300 \_ KK8E CPU registers -- M8310 / KK8E CPU control -- -- -- M833 - Timing board (system clock) -- M865 - KL8E console terminal interface. -- -- -- -- space for more peripherals -- -- -- M849 - shield to isolate memory from CPU -- G104 \ -- H220 > MM8E 4K memory -- G227 / -- -- -- space for more memory -- -- M8320 - KK8E Bus terminator Most of the early boards with 3 digit numbers were defective in one way or another, and the corrected boards added a trailing zero. Thus, the M833 was generally replaced with an M8330, and the M865 was replaced with the M8650. Expandability: The following are among the OMNIBUS boards that could be added internally: -- M8650 - KL8E RS232 or current loop serial interface. -- M8340 \_ Extended arithmetic element. -- M8341 / (must be attached in two slots between CPU and M833. -- M8350 - KA8E posibus interface (excluding DMA transfers). -- M8360 - KD8E data break interface (one per DMA device). -- M837 - KM8E memory extension control (needed for over 4K). -- M840 - PC8E high speed paper tape reader-punch interface. -- M842 - XY8E X/Y plotter control. -- M843 - CR8E card reader interface. There were many other internal options. There was room in the basic box for another 20 slot backplane; taking into account the 2 slots occupied by the M935 bridge between the two backplanes, this allowed 38 slots, and a second box could be added to accomodate another 38 slot backplane, bridged to the first box by a pair of BC08H OMNIBUS extension cables. Given a M837 memory extension control, additional memory could be added in increments of 4K by adding G104, H220, G227 triplets. The suggested arrangement of boards on the OMNIBUS always maintained the M849 shield between memory other options. The one exception was that the M8350 KA8E and M8360 KD8E external posibus interfaces were typically placed at the end of the OMNIBUS right before the terminator. The following options were introduced later, and there were many options offered by third party suppliers. -- G111 \ -- H212 > MM8EJ 8K memory -- G233 / -- M8357 -- RX8E interface to RX01/02 8" diskette drives. -- M7104 \ -- M7105 > RK8E RK05 Disk Interface -- M7106 / -- M8321 \ -- M8322 \ TM8E Magtape control for 9 track tape. -- M8323 / -- M8327 / Survival: It is still fairly common to find PDP-8/E systems on the surplus market, recently removed from service and in working condition or very close to it. A modest number are still in service doing their orignal jobs, and there is still a limited amount of commercial support from both DEC and third-party vendors. ------------------------------ Subject: What is a PDP-8/F? Date of introduction: 1972. Date of withdrawal: 1978. Technology: an OMNIBUS machine, as with the PDP-8/E. First use of a switching power supply in the PDP-8 family. Reason for introduction: The PDP-8/E had a large enough box and a large enough power supply to accomodate a large configuration. By shortening the box and putting in a small switching power supply, a lower cost OMNIBUS machine was possible. Reason for withdrawal: The PDP-8/A 800 displaced this machine, providing similar expansion capability at a lower cost. Compatability: The PDP-8/F used the PDP-8/E CPU and peripherals. Standard configuration: Identical to the PDP-8/E, except that the KC8E front anel was replaced with a KC8M front panel that had LEDs instead of incandescent lights; this front panel could also be installed on PDP-8/E systems, but the PDP-8/E front panel could not be used on a PDP-8/F because of the lack of a +8 supply for the lights. The original PDP-8/F box had a defective power supply, but a revised (slightly larger) box corrected this problem. With the dintroduction of the M8330, DEC began to require that this board be placed adjacent to the KC8x front panel, although many OMNIBUS PDP-8 systems continued to be configured (by users) with the M8330 elsewhere on the bus. As a result, the suggested order of boards on the omnibus began with: -- KC8E programmer's console (lights and switches) -- M8330 - Timing board (system clock) -- M8340 \_ optional EAE board 1 -- M8341 / optional EAE board 2 -- M8310 \_ KK8E CPU control -- M8300 / KK8E CPU registers -- M837 - Extended Memory & Time Share control Expandability: This machine could be expanded using all PDP-8/E OMNIBUS peripherals, including the external expansion chassis. The relatively small internal power supply and the lack of room for a 20 slot bus expander inside the first box were the only limitations. There were minor compatability problems with some options, for example, the power-fail auto-restart card, as originally sold, was incompatable with the PDP-8/F power supply. Survival: As with the PDP-8/E, these machines are moderately common on the surplus market, and frequently in working condition. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From at258 at osfn.org Fri Apr 9 19:51:40 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: [OT] <10 yo DG Aviion In-Reply-To: <199904092304.SAA17624@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, David Williams wrote: > Well, I also have a Nova but it is just the case. No boards inside at > all. I'd love to find some and bring it back to life but don't hold > much hope. :-( Check with Carl Friend, he breeds them. M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 9 20:15:01 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) In-Reply-To: <990409202151.20c0015d@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990409175914.03d46560@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 08:21 PM 4/9/99 -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM wrote: >I know that folks here have traiditionally objected to outside FAQ's >when instead the issue could be resolved by dozens of E-mails, but in >this case Doug Jone's *PDP-8 Summary of Models and Options* answers >the question of 8/E vs 8/F quite nicely: Too bad it's wrong. It makes it seem as if there was a box that was designated PDP-8/E and it had a particular configuration that was retired until the introduction of a new box with the designation of PDP-8/F. This isn't supported by the evidence. What really happened, and I have several independent confirmations of same, is that the PDP-8/E system evolved into the PDP-8/F in a series of steps. Depending on the date code the machine was configured differently. The evolution vectors were as follows: Module updates - example M833 - M8330, M831 - > M8310 Chassis updates - Long box, single OMNI BUS Long box dual OMNI BUS Short box single OMNIBUS Linear PSU on side. Short box single OMNIBUS Switching PSU in rear. Front Panel Updates: Diode logic + 8v LAMPS TTL logic + 6v LAMPS TTL logic + LEDs in lamp sockets TTL Logic + LEDS PSU updates - Long linear PSU Short linear PSU Short Switching PSU (types A and B) At some point in this evolution some marketroid decided to change the name from 8/e to 8/f. The OEM version of this platform was called the 8/m and included an optional limited function front panel (although all 8/M's I've seen so far had the programmers panel but that's only about a dozen so who can say) I happen to have an 8/e that is: Short box 6v LAMPs plus TTL front panel Side mount PSU I recently picked up an 8/e chassis that had the dual OMNIBUS backplanes. It is this one that doesn't have a cover. It may have been mounted in a desk, I don't know (it also didn't have a front panel but I can use my other 8/E front panel with it) My guess is that the evolution of the 8/E was driven by the introduction of the 11/20 since these changes seem have occurred between 1970 and 1972. All 8/E's with date codes prior to 1970 appear to be the diode front panel type, All 8/E's after 1972 appear to be either 8/F's or 8/Ms (until the 8/a came out). The 8/M and 8/F are primarily differentiated by different inserts/color schemes, electrically they appear to be identical. The solder mask of the front panel says "8/E" That being said (and yes I've sent Doug mail on this but its not exactly FAQ material unless you really want to restore them as I do) I'd appreciate pictures for the cover on the long one since I can fabricate a cover then. --Chuck From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 9 21:20:49 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: Don Lancaster was Re: Ebay Mark-8 Plans In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990409162717.2f076cdc@earthlink.net> References: <370DA6D9.71ECB3A0@rain.org> <4.1.19990405164458.03c635c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990409212049.226f9dbe@intellistar.net> At 04:27 PM 4/9/99, Dave wrote: > >The seller also has the RE TVT plans by Don Lancaster. Speaking of Don Lancaster, has anyone asked him to speak at VCF or told him about this list? He's been involved with the home PCs since the beginning and is probably a wealth of infomation. Joe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 9 20:31:52 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990409175914.03d46560@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <990409202151.20c0015d@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990409183023.009a9720@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Bad form to follow up on my own post but ... At 06:15 PM 4/9/99 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >Too bad it's wrong. This is too harsh, nothing in the FAQ is "wrong" per se, it just doesn't capture the fluid nature of the product that was labelled "PDP-8/e" and sold by DEC. Perhaps "misleading" might be a better term. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 19:08:57 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990409155040.00cf0b30@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 9, 99 04:00:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2629 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990410/894bbfa7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 19:13:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 9, 99 04:26:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 403 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990410/010c67eb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 19:10:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <199904092301.AA25365@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 9, 99 07:01:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 610 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990410/4860e3b5/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Fri Apr 9 21:37:44 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) Message-ID: <990409223744.20c0015d@trailing-edge.com> >>I know that folks here have traiditionally objected to outside FAQ's >>when instead the issue could be resolved by dozens of E-mails, but in >>this case Doug Jone's *PDP-8 Summary of Models and Options* answers >>the question of 8/E vs 8/F quite nicely: >Too bad it's wrong. >It makes it seem as if there was a box that was designated PDP-8/E and it >had a particular configuration that was retired until the introduction of a >new box with the designation of PDP-8/F. This isn't supported by the evidence. Well, that's not how I read it. By my reading, Doug's writeup makes it perfectly clear that 8/E's and 8/F's were produced simultaneously and from a common pool of (largely, but not completely) compatible parts. >What really happened, and I have several independent confirmations of same, >is that the PDP-8/E system evolved into the PDP-8/F in a series of steps. >Depending on the date code the machine was configured differently. And I think that Doug Jone's FAQ entry agrees with you here. >The evolution vectors were as follows: > Module updates - example M833 - M8330, M831 - > M8310 In the FAQ, Doug says on this subject: * Most of the early boards with 3 digit numbers were defective * in one way or another, and the corrected boards added a trailing * zero. Thus, the M833 was generally replaced with an M8330, and * the M865 was replaced with the M8650. If you look in the PDP8-Lovers/alt.sys.pdp8 archives, you'll find Charles Lasner going into great detail about the differences between the different revisions of boards. > Chassis updates - Long box, single OMNI BUS > Long box dual OMNI BUS And in the FAQ Doug agrees with you: * There were many other internal options. There was room in the * basic box for another 20 slot backplane; taking into account the * 2 slots occupied by the M935 bridge between the two backplanes, * this allowed 38 slots > Short box single OMNIBUS Linear PSU on side. > Short box single OMNIBUS Switching PSU in rear. And again, in the FAQ Doug agrees with you: * The original PDP-8/F box had a defective power * supply, but a revised (slightly larger) box corrected this * problem. > Front Panel Updates: Diode logic + 8v LAMPS > TTL logic + 6v LAMPS > TTL logic + LEDs in lamp sockets > TTL Logic + LEDS And again Doug states that there were several front panel configurations. > PSU updates - Long linear PSU > Short linear PSU > Short Switching PSU (types A and B) And again Doug notes the difference in power supplies. >At some point in this evolution some marketroid decided to change the name >from 8/e to 8/f. The OEM version of this platform was called the 8/m and >included an optional limited function front panel (although all 8/M's I've >seen so far had the programmers panel but that's only about a dozen so who >can say) > >I happen to have an 8/e that is: > Short box > 6v LAMPs plus TTL front panel > Side mount PSU There's no doubt that there were many ways to mix and match the various components produced. I'm a bit uncertain why some folks try to apply zoology so incessantly to their computers, when in real life folks move parts between systems with wild abandon, but then again zoology has always bored me to tears. >My guess is that the evolution of the 8/E was driven by the introduction of >the 11/20 since these changes seem have occurred between 1970 and 1972. All >8/E's with date codes prior to 1970 appear to be the diode front panel >type, All 8/E's after 1972 appear to be either 8/F's or 8/Ms (until the 8/a >came out). Again, I think you're trying too hard to classify machines which were built from a hodgepodge of parts to fit each individual situation. Lots of 8/E's and 8/F's went into instruments, and generally the OEM could pick and choose the features they wanted. >That being said (and yes I've sent Doug mail on this but its not exactly >FAQ material unless you really want to restore them as I do) I'd appreciate >pictures for the cover on the long one since I can fabricate a cover then. On mine, it's just a big sheet metal panel, with tabes on the right that go into slots on the chassis and with tape-seal type latches on the left. No ventilation slots at all. There's a lip on every edge except for the rear. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Fri Apr 9 21:45:28 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) Message-ID: <990409224528.20c0015d@trailing-edge.com> > There should be >some plastic catches (or more likely the remains of same) on the PSU. I've found that most half-inch tape seals have latches which are quite amenable to being used as replacements for the original plastic catches :-). >BTW, one of the few pieces of poor design in this machine is that you >have to take the left side rackmount rail off the box before you can get >the PSU out. This means you have to take the entire (heavy) machine out >the rack before you can remove the PSU. If you use short 10-32x1/4" screws on the left rail, it's a lot easier to take the PSU out. (I thought everyone shortened these screws!) With the original screws (3/4"), it is possible to get the PSU in and out with the rail attached, but it is quite difficult and requires that the PSU be inserted at a rather awkward angle. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Fri Apr 9 21:53:53 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) Message-ID: <990409225353.20c0015d@trailing-edge.com> >>That being said (and yes I've sent Doug mail on this but its not exactly >>FAQ material unless you really want to restore them as I do) I'd appreciate >>pictures for the cover on the long one since I can fabricate a cover then. >On mine, it's just a big sheet metal panel, with tabes on the right >that go into slots on the chassis and with tape-seal type latches on >the left. No ventilation slots at all. There's a lip on every edge >except for the rear. After reading Tony's reply, I now realize what your question must be about: the ventilation holes on the right-hand side. On mine, there are two, both 6.5 inches high, the front one 4.5 inches wide and positioned roughly over the third through thirteenth cards, the rear one 6 inches wide and positioned roughly over the 8th through the last slot of the second backplane unit. Both holes have a grill of hexagonal mesh, about 1/4" spacing, welded on the right hand side. Does this help? And, to be more explicit about the lips, the front and left lips are about 3/4" of an inch. And the back panel has two slots, each roughly 2 3/8" wide. I think my maintenance books might have a drawing; if I find one, would a fax of that page help? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Apr 9 22:00:18 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: OT: copying OS/2 Warp Message-ID: In a message dated 99-04-09 19:24:05 EDT, you write: > Hi, > I managed to borrow a hard drive with OS/2 warp on it from someone. I want > to copy it onto my own drive. How do I do this? I know that in DOS, I > would do a sys command to make the drive bootable. There is no sys command > here. What should I do? > os2 has sysinstx instead. you'll need to boot from 3 os2 utility disks and then invoke the command. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 9 23:06:24 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) In-Reply-To: <990409224528.20c0015d@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >> There should be >>some plastic catches (or more likely the remains of same) on the PSU. > >I've found that most half-inch tape seals have latches which are >quite amenable to being used as replacements for the original plastic >catches :-). Tim, I think I'm going to have to plead ignorant here. What are "half-inch tape seals"? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From max82 at surfree.com Fri Apr 9 21:09:55 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: OT: copying OS/2 Warp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: >os2 has sysinstx instead. you'll need to boot from 3 os2 utility disks and >then invoke the command. I tried that. Then using LILO to boot produces an illegible error message by the OS2 partition. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Apr 10 01:19:43 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: Mac Media Players Message-ID: <01be831a$1f780420$5a8ea6d1@the-general> Does anyone know of a MIDI / Media (wav?) player for a Mac that will run on a Mac Portable with System 7.5 and 4 MB RAM? Better yet, does anyone know of where (other than SUN Remarketing) to get a RAM upgrade for the Portable? ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 9 22:36:41 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990409155040.00cf0b30@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990409200957.00b79100@mcmanis.com> At 01:08 AM 4/10/99 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >Strange. And it only does this on the rear connector? Yup. >Are you sure it's the same PSU? The one I am talking about - the H724 - has >the following layout : [snip] Same layout, same number. Pictures here: http://www.home.mcmanis.com/pdp8/ >There is a top cover for the 8/e. It's a single metal unit that covers >the top, right side and back. The PSU is exposed on the left side (but >there should be a mesh cover on the side of that). Check on the mesh cover and the slots in the right hand side. The PSU though has no indication that it ever had any catches on it (no adhesive residue at all) Perhaps it was mounted in a desk or something. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 9 23:07:03 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990409200957.00b79100@mcmanis.com> References: <4.1.19990409155040.00cf0b30@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990409210102.00b90d30@mcmanis.com> Ok, much probing and spying with flashlights later ... The back connector has had the 5v line removed from it, (the wire is tucked inside the PSU with heat shrink tubing over its end) and instead this pin is connected to a wire that is soldered to the _underside_ of the bottom board below the heatsinks. (toward the front of that board but I haven't tried pulling the board yet.) If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that someone had ECO'd this 8 to sense the voltage level on the bus using the rear connector by connecting 5volts at the back of the bus into the regulator board in the PSU. Ring any bells for anybody? If that's the case then perhaps I've got a problem in the bus jumpers. Question for the gallery: If you are looking at a PDP-8 from the "front" which side is the "A" connector and which side is the "D" connector? Or put another way, is the A connector on the front panel closer to the key or farther from the key, than the D connector? --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 9 23:17:38 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990409210102.00b90d30@mcmanis.com> References: <4.1.19990409200957.00b79100@mcmanis.com> <4.1.19990409155040.00cf0b30@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990409211654.00b9f500@mcmanis.com> At 09:07 PM 4/9/99 -0700, I wrote: >If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that someone had ECO'd this 8 to sense >the voltage level on the bus using the rear connector by connecting 5volts >at the back of the bus into the regulator board in the PSU. Oh, and the person who eco'd it apparently didn't realize that the bus connectors don't pass power from one backplane to the next ... --Chuck From jruschme at exit109.com Fri Apr 9 23:23:29 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: Odd board find Message-ID: <199904100423.AAA04331@crobin.home.org> I came across an odd board in the dumpster at work today. Hopefully one of you might recognize it. It appears to be some sort of bubble memory board. Details: Small board, approx. the size of a 5.25" floppy drive board 2x40-pin Berg headers at one end 2x36-pin edge connectors at the other 2 very small pushbuttons 3 LEDs labelled: ERR EN RUN Obvious chips: ROM labelled "RCB1.1" Z80A Intel D7220-1 Intel 7110A-1 bubble memory module Lots of 74LS-family chips Markings: Bubbl-tec division of PC/M, Inc. Copyright 1984 PC/M INC. R-II-AM-BUBBL-A Anybody recognize this one? <<>> From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 9 23:32:06 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) Message-ID: <199904100432.AA26160@world.std.com> M8310 Bug fixes. early in the 8E life and nearly predating the later omnibus 8s. The original designs had poor margins and too much green wire. Even later ones have green wire. < Chassis updates - Long box, single OMNI BUS < Long box dual OMNI BUS < Short box single OMNIBUS Linear PSU on side. < Short box single OMNIBUS Switching PSU in Rear version replaced the really broken side mounted PS version. The switcher was not the best design as it was fairly new technology. < Front Panel Updates: Diode logic + 8v LAMPS Early 8Es only. Driven by manufacturability. < TTL logic + 6v LAMPS Bulk of production and the common verison in the 8E < TTL logic + LEDs in lamp sockets Never made, it was a field third party retrofit. < TTL Logic + LEDS 8F/M pannel later in design than the 8e v2. < PSU updates - Long linear PSU < Short linear PSU < Short Switching PSU (types A and B) Not updates litereally differnt products with overlapping production lives save for the two switchers. PDP-8 tautology is clear, one only needs a set of DEC small computer handbooks to sort it out. My 1973 copy describes all three versions and their major differences very clearly. The evolution vectors were as follows: <> Module updates - example M833 - M8330, M831 - > M8310 < Chassis updates - Long box, single OMNI BUS <> Long box dual OMNI BUS < > From: Sellam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: [RANTISH] Programming Stupidity > Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 3:53 > > On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > > You've already lost if you have to run Windoze whatever. I'd switch to > > something more stable in a minute, but the sad part is that Windoze is > > everywhere, so we have to teach our students to use it and the apps that > > run on it, because that's what they will likely find in the real world.. > > So are you preparing your students for 1 or 2 years out, or are you > preparing them for a lifetime? If you're just preparing them for the > first few years of their career, keep teaching them windows. Tell it to the employers. They ask for people with computer skills. But what they really want is people that are skilled in the use of Word, Excel and Access. When that situation changes, we'll happily shift to Linux or similar. For now, it has to be left to the University (we're Reception to Year 12, ie; Primary/High School) to teach about real operating systems etc. > However, if you want to give them the advantage over others that will > allow them to be more competitive, make more money and therefore get more > girls (and boys) start teaching them on Linux boxes. I'd like to do both, as Micro$oft skills are still very marketable, especially for young people in a high youth unemployment market. (Like around here) Sadly, very few companies/businesses within 100miles or so use anything but MS Office. (Apart from 2 ISP's) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 10 00:11:33 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: PDP-8 lineage In-Reply-To: <199904100432.AA26160@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990409220619.00b9d2f0@mcmanis.com> Ok, ok, so we tell things in different ways, I already apologized for being to harsh on the FAQ, but this one I can't let go... I wrote: >< Short box >< 6v LAMPs plus TTL front panel >< Side mount PSU And at 12:32 AM 4/10/99 -0400, Allison J Parent replied: >That is not an 8E, it a frankenmonster in a 8m crate. It was sold by DEC as an 8/E in the short box (granted its the 8/F box but) its the only 8 which I got from the original owner who still had the paperwork. And on the back on the configuration chart it has the module list and on the model number plate there is a generic tag market Model 8/_ with a space that the same person who wrote the module configuration wrote the letter 'e'. (and of course the front panel says 8/E and it has lamps not LEDs). Anyway, the point is moot since I've got a long box and still no hernia I could move the panel over to it :-) --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 10 00:43:55 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: 8/E PSU resolution Message-ID: <4.1.19990409224230.00972b10@mcmanis.com> I rewired the plug on J3 to supply 5V at pin #3 (rather than going to the voltage regulator board) and both backplanes are now functional! Running Allison's worm program with the memory in back and the CPU and stuff in front. --Chuck From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 10 00:39:16 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > Actually, Persci floppy drives in 1976 or so were voice-coil (and quite > > a pain to maintain, even then - these days the glue that holds the > > optical graticules in place is often failing, and gluing and realigning > > from scratch is even harder, even with all the special Persci > > realignment jigs and electronic panels.) And a common modification > > Does anyone have the service manuals for these drives? I have one on my > old CASU S100 system, and although it's not failed yet, I'm sure I'll > have to fix it sometime. I'm fairly sure somewhere amidst my piles of computer stuff I have the service manuals. One day I'll find them, and on that day I'll let you know ;) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Sat Apr 10 01:27:41 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: Identify this vector Graphics machine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Somebody liked it.... It is gone! George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, George Rachor wrote: > I stumbled upon a all in one box this evening at a Thrift store. It was > missing a keyboard which may hook up on the front phone line like > connector marked "Control". > > Below the Video was a 5.25 Hard drive in the left bay and a full size 5.25 > inch floppy in the right bay. > > On the back of the machine were two serial ports, two parallel ports and a > single 9 pin port marked "RGB". > > The back of the box had a "Vector Graphics" label. The front had a label > that read: > VZX > > Again no keyboard or software. Any ideas what this creature is? > > George > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > From bluoval at mindspring.com Sat Apr 10 01:34:20 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-8 questions Message-ID: <370EF0EC.2FC35090@mindspring.com> I saw a H-8 on eBay tonight. What year were these made? What could one do with it? From the photo it has a 16 key keypad, numbers 1-9 and the math symbols, decimal point, and 2 others i can't make out. What are those 2 keys? I'm not trying to buy it, I wouldn't know what to do with it even if i did. just curious. TIA. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 10 02:03:19 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: Don Lancaster was Re: Ebay Mark-8 Plans In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990409212049.226f9dbe@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > At 04:27 PM 4/9/99, Dave wrote: > > > >The seller also has the RE TVT plans by Don Lancaster. > > Speaking of Don Lancaster, has anyone asked him to speak at VCF or told > him about this list? He's been involved with the home PCs since the > beginning and is probably a wealth of infomation. I invited him to speak for VCF 1.0 but he wasy busy and told me to try again some other time. Maybe I'll try again this year. On that topic, if anyone would like to suggest a speaker for VCF 3.0 (or even be a speaker themself!) then please drop me a line with your suggestion. Thanks! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Apr 9 23:37:21 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:59 2005 Subject: Fooling with floppy drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >In a message dated 09/04/99 4:56:32 Eastern Daylight Time, >mikeford@netwiz.net writes: > ><< My plan right now is to first buy some more drives, then sit down with a > batch and rubber gloves and clean and relube all of them at once. In fact I > may seek out a box of "bad" floppies to add to my repair run next time I > see them at the swap meet. Fortunately I just opened up a IIfx from a > friendly trade and found two excellent condition drives (along with some > giant double sized 8 MB simms). > >> > >that's a good idea. better to find and hoard those old disk drives for parts >than have them thrown away for good. that IIfx is nice machine also. treat >those 8meg simms like gold. they're proprietary to the fx model. I have about 7 or 8 IIfx now, and given the right old software it is still a darn impressive machine. I am going to sell off a few to friends, but two are branded as CrossField LightSpeed on the case, with grey or black interiors, and those and a couple more I plan to keep as servers etc. Sad to say many people are scrapping IIfx for the ram, its 25 lbs vs 2 ounces and half the value of a IIfx can be in the ram easily. From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Apr 9 23:43:07 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <001001be8293$2596dd40$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: >newness of the network scheme used to share the two laser printers. I'd >point out almost daily, that my PC/AT with a laser printer and a substantial >hard disk, plus a COLOR display, which none of the MAC's there had, cost >less than one of these MAC's alone. > >The bias I held against Apple products was based on the perception that lots >of features and performance were sacrificed in favor of the rather lame >color display, which I then felt was useful for games and other forms of >entertainment, which I felt were out of place in the office. Sheesh, talk about the PC calling the mac non black and white. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 10 02:27:54 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: Odd board find In-Reply-To: <199904100423.AAA04331@crobin.home.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, John Ruschmeyer wrote: > I came across an odd board in the dumpster at work today. Hopefully > one of you might recognize it. It appears to be some sort of bubble > memory board. > > Details: > > Small board, approx. the size of a 5.25" floppy drive board > 2x40-pin Berg headers at one end > 2x36-pin edge connectors at the other > 2 very small pushbuttons > 3 LEDs labelled: > ERR > EN > RUN > Obvious chips: > ROM labelled "RCB1.1" > Z80A > Intel D7220-1 > Intel 7110A-1 bubble memory module > Lots of 74LS-family chips > Markings: > Bubbl-tec > division of PC/M, Inc. > > Copyright 1984 > PC/M INC. > > R-II-AM-BUBBL-A > > Anybody recognize this one? No, but with a Z80A and ROM onboard it sounds like a single board computer with a bubble memory for starge. Might possibly be some sort of high-reliance industrial controller. Nice find! Question: Does it look like this http://www.siconic.com/ebay/BUBBLE.gif or does the top (lable-side) edge connectors not have gold contacts (only the bottom)? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From fpp at concentric.net Sat Apr 10 02:31:45 1999 From: fpp at concentric.net (Paul Passmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-8 questions Message-ID: <003801be8324$305216a0$c6f8adce@paul> I saw a H-8 on eBay tonight. What year were these made? The year was about 1976-77. Saw it at the Heathkit store in LA. That and the 16 convinced them to go full steam into computers and rest is out of business history! From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 10 02:40:45 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <001a01be8325$726b0f00$0100c0a8@fuj03> In late 1979-and much of 1980, I worked for a consultant here in the Colorado front-range, who happened to have a contract with Tandy, as did several others, to produce a prototype of the next generation personal computer for Radio Shack. There were sobstantial guidelines and some direction, e.g. the packaging was more or less determined already, and the noise and power supply characteristics were handed to us, but we had quite liberal discretion as to what would go into our prototype. I was tasked with the memory subsystems, including rotating memories, as I had specifically applicable skills which they desired. ( I had built several really solid all-digital clock recovery circuits which worked with both FM and MFM, among other modulation schemes, and made them work with the then new winchester disks in 5.25" form factor. I also had extensive experience with DRAMs. ) We ended up with the creature I described a couple of posts ago. Tandy happily paid us but later told us that the $5 or so which it cost over and above the cheapest prototype presented them by one of the other firms similar to ours, and since they anticipated sales of about 1M units, they wanted the 5 million for themselves. That's why I put forth the detailed lamentation. It's true, they eventually came around, but not until after it was too late. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 2:54 PM Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism >In other words, if RS were to have released their Model FOUR at about the >time that they came out with their model ONE, then they might have had >more of a competitive advantage. Hmmm. > >The RCA TV set design that RS used for a monitor for the model 1 was NOT >really adequate for 80x24 display. (YES, I've done it.) >Double density was NOT readily achievable in 1978. And the poor quality >double density of the model 3 was comparable to the rest of the industry. >And RADIO SHACK was NOT capable of being THAT much of a technology leader! > > >OTOH, when RS came out with the model 3 a few years later, that WOULD have >been an appropriate time to make ALL of the model 4 changes, including >revising the memory map (to permit CP/M), 80x24 display, Ctrl key, etc. > > >Now, if intel were to have come out with the 233 Pentium in the 80s... >If Apple were to have come out with the Mac in the 70s... >If IBM were to have come out with the PC in the 60s,... >If Windoze were reliable,... > > >On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> In the late '70's, I think the microcomputer market was highly simplistic >> with respect to what it is today. Take a look at the comments I've imbedded >> in your text below. >> >> >> The TRS-80 could have been put out with (1) an 80x24 display rather than >> the >> >> >> >> >> If Tandy had gone with the better design, which was on the >> >> table, there probably would be no IBM PC today. >> >> Yes, that's true, but, the 4MHz+ (4.9152 MHz, actually) Z-80B with 64K of >> RAM, a 24x80-charcter display, double-density diskette interface that >> actually worked, built-in capability to install a hard disk, AND the ability >> to run CP/M right out of the box, in 1978-1979 e.g. at the fall '78 COMDEX, >> which was BEFORE there were "Over 10,000 programs written for the Apple" >> would have been hard to beat . . . particularly under the aegis of a >> nation-wide company with these facilities under one management already in >> place. Remember APPLE had to rely on small-time stores like Computerland >> for distribution, and their service, mostly indirect, was slow and costly. >> >> The things which seemed to make the Apple fit the business model the best >> (before Visicalc) was the 24x80-character display and the 8" diskette drives >> sitting next to it. With the aid of the Videx video display adapter and the >> Sorrento Valley Associates' 8" disk drive interface, the machine suddenly >> began to look like what people had come to expect when they learned about >> computers and how to use them. >I wasn't aware that the SVA drive ever had significant market share; >certainly not enough for IT to have been what made the ][ popular. > >> It's true that "He with the biggest dick didn't always go home with the >> babe" but you mustn't forget that in this case, the dick was overtly >> measured and advertised. Whereas the above described TRS80-III wouldn't >> have been the fastest on the market, it had the packaging and the ability to >> turn into much more computer for much less money than the Apple, though with >> the gradually and later not so gradual increase in Apple's market share, >> they were able to become somewhat more competitive in spite of the high cost >> of distribution and service. The way it turned out, Tandy Corp ended up >> with precisely the smallest, didn't it? A barely-over 2MHz processor which >> stroked memory more at about 1.5 microsecond per memory cycle??? It was >> obvious to everyone who used the Radio Shack model III that their computer >> was SLOW. The Z-80-card in the Apple was significantly (and noticeably) >> faster. The two machines otherwise occupied about the same desk space, and, >> aside from the stupid, Stupid, STUPID choice to leave the Tandy machine's >> display at 16 lines of 64 characters (about half of what was on a 24x80, and >> about what was on an Apple with the standard display), they were quite >> similar. Of course the Radio Shack machine was SLOW . . . > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 10 03:41:38 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: OT: copying OS/2 Warp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hi, >I managed to borrow a hard drive with OS/2 warp on it from someone. I want >to copy it onto my own drive. How do I do this? I know that in DOS, I >would do a sys command to make the drive bootable. There is no sys command >here. What should I do? > >--Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) You go to the store and you BUY a copy of OS/2 Warp. OS/2 is a commercial product that is still available in stores. Either that or you can probably buy a used copy, although I don't know what transfering the license entails. Last I checked OS/2 Warp V3 and V4 were both available. I've heard a new version is actually in the works (despite the fact I used to be a huge OS/2 fan I find that a little hard to believe). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 10 02:45:41 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-8 questions In-Reply-To: <003801be8324$305216a0$c6f8adce@paul> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Paul Passmore wrote: > > I saw a H-8 on eBay tonight. What year were these made? > The year was about 1976-77. Saw it at the Heathkit store in LA. That > and the 16 convinced them to go full steam into computers and rest is > out of business history! Don't you mean the H-11? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 10 02:52:32 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 Message-ID: <003701be8327$17772500$0100c0a8@fuj03> Since I have several of the drives, I do, indeed have the service documents for the model 277 (single-sided) drive. The difference between FM and MFM is not the rate at which thd data and clocks are written to the drive, but rather, the modulation technique itself. Instead of haveing a discretely presented clock 180-degrees out of phase with the data window, it has an imbedded clock, in which, like manchester code, the data is shifted in phase from the clock. If there is a long string of ones, they are written in phase, one pulse per clock, while if there's a long string of zeroes, the zeroes are represented by a string of pulses 180 degrees out of phase , omitting the first and last pulses in order to avoid crowding them to such extent that it violates the maximal flux reversal density. As a result, you get a modulated waveform which contains both the data and the clock in it in such a way that you can write and read double the amount you can write and read using FM, since FM automatically consumes half the channel bandwidth for discrete clock pulses. It should come as no surprise that this works much like Manchester Code. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 4:44 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 >> Actually, Persci floppy drives in 1976 or so were voice-coil (and quite >> a pain to maintain, even then - these days the glue that holds the >> optical graticules in place is often failing, and gluing and realigning >> from scratch is even harder, even with all the special Persci >> realignment jigs and electronic panels.) And a common modification > >Does anyone have the service manuals for these drives? I have one on my >old CASU S100 system, and although it's not failed yet, I'm sure I'll >have to fix it sometime. > >Are they any worse to maintain than RK05s, say? The overall design of the >positioner seems to be very similar. > >> >One interesting thing about the Apple GCR modulation format is that it >> >essentially was a "double-density" technique. >> >> Eric said the same thing, and I disagree with you both. To me (and all >> the tech pubs I've read) the density is how many flux transitions you can >> do per second (or revolution). GCR is a way of getting more real data with > >Hmm... Are you implying that conventional MFM double density is just FM >with a faster clock rate? Surely not. > >I thought the whole point of MFM was to reduce the number of flux >transitions per (user) data bit. An FM bit cell _always_ has a clock >transition, and may have a data transition as well. MFM removes some of >the 'wasted' clock transitions. > >> the same number of flux transitions. Apple GCR drives use single-density > >As, IMHO is MFM. > >-tony > From mikeford at netwiz.net Sat Apr 10 02:56:53 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: Mac Media Players In-Reply-To: <01be831a$1f780420$5a8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: >Does anyone know of a MIDI / Media (wav?) player for a Mac that will run on >a Mac Portable with System 7.5 and 4 MB RAM? Better yet, does anyone know >of where (other than SUN Remarketing) to get a RAM upgrade for the Portable? Do a dejanews search for the Mac portable, somebody was selling a pallet load of them, good time to stock up. Its funny I have seen 3 or 4 locally around $40, and feel no nostalgia for them. I did kind of want the Outbound I ran across, and I am going to miss the 5300CS I just put on eBay, but something like a cheap 140 should keep me happy. Traveling is going to be weird, my wife with her 7700 thinkpad, my 8 yearold with his old 365XD, and me with a pokey 145. We are going to have to get a bigger inverter for the car. ;) From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 10 03:15:08 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <004001be832a$4eb36f80$0100c0a8@fuj03> At the risk of becoming the resident infidel . . . The 6502, particularly in its later incarnation by Rockwell embodied the cleverness fostered by its earlier versions and the non-Intel family of processors. How the elegance of their instruction set became lost is a mystery to me. The most primitive analysis of the microcontroller's task is (1) fetch input signals, (2) take appropriate action. Now this is oversimplified to the max, but if you consider a comfortable and quick way to do this on most any processor, you'll quickly get a feel for what I mean to say, even though I can't easily articulate it. On inspection, the "general" way to handle this is with a "computed go-to." That doesn't say it's the ONLY way, but it's a way which does the job ALWAYS. Just to get my hands around the problem, let's assume we're making a simple communication device which process ASCII characters, mostly, by way of two serial ports, one in, one out. We can then hook up the UARTs such that the lsb is always grounded and the 7-bit ASCII appears left justified in the UART's data register. On a 65C02 from Rockwell (making the distinction because there were several CMOS 6502's, all slightly different) you load the input value into an index register and then jump, indexed indirect, to the routine which is appropriate for that pattern of inputs. This requires, then, that you have a table with 256 bytes, more correctly 128 words, with each word the address of the routine which is used to process the left-justified ASCII data. This is tremendously fast! It requires no STACK, and it requires only two instructions. Another way of doing this involves building a stack frame and loading the return address with a value looked up in a table, then executing a return. This can be done with any number of processors. On a Z-80 you can jmp HL, and I'm sure there are other neat ways of doing this simple thing. I've never seen anything more elegant than that simplistic sequence on the 65C02. How the MOTOROLA people let this go by the wayside in the design of their 6809, 6801, 68K family, and countless others puzzles me. I've not made an extensive study of other processors, but I have looked at a few. The only processor I've used which has a similar mechanism at its disposal is the 8051 core. It has a data register which can be used as an offset for a jump instruction. Now, I doubt that anything that simple can be used to discriminate between what's "best" and what's not, but it's for certain that it's a nice feature not available on the 6809. I used the 6809 extensively while I was in the aerospace industry, and found it fairly friendly. BUT, it still is relatively slow, as compared with processors of the same generation from sources clever enough to arrange the bytes the other way around in memory so you didn't have to fetch and the discard a high byte when there wasn't one. Fortunately, many tasks don't require a really fast processor. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 4:46 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) >> >It proved software was more important than hardware. The best cpu with no >> >software was still nothing. The z80 was maybe the best at the moment but >> >the 6502 was as versitile and plenty fast enough to make up for it's >> >limitations. >> >> >> There were many people who disagreed with that performance comparison. The >> two processors (I used them both extensively) were different enough that >> comparison and contrast was not easy. The Z-80 had many registers and a >> rich instruction set of which much was awkward and difficult to use. The >> 6502 had fewer registers and fewer instructions but they were amplified by >> addressing modes not readily available to the Z-80 user, particularly if his > >IMHO, the best of the 8-bitters was the 6809 (very clean instruction set >and quite fast), but that came out rather too late to be a serious >competitor to the 6502/Z80. > >I grew up on the Z80, and for a time I thought that the 6502 was a >horrible little chip. But then I got to use a 6502 in the BBC micro and I >totally revised my opinion of it. The 6502 instruction set was simple and >fairly clean. For high-level languages it was a fine processor (BBC basic >on a 2MHz 6502 was faster than similar BASICs on 4MHz Z80 machines). > >> >> The TRS-80 could have been put out with (1) an 80x24 display rather than the >> 16x64, it could have solidly supported double-density FD's (in the model 3) > >I've never had any problems with the M3 disk controller, and I've used it >pretty extensively (well, I did have a 1793 die once, but that's not a >design problem). > >> and it could have operated at about 4MHz rather than the 2.-something it >> used, and it could have switched in and out the ROM so it could run CP/M but >> for the greed of Tandy Corp. It would have cost them an additional $5 and > >Err.. That sounds very like the Model 4 to me. Lets see, 80*24 screen, 4MHz >CPU, ROM can be switched out... Yes, a model 4. Of course it used the >same disk controller as the M3, so if you had problems with that you'd >still have problems... > >> on the Apple II. If Tandy had gone with the better design, which was on the >> table, there probably would be no IBM PC today. > >No. Never forget the 3 magic letters 'IBM'. That's why the PC was >succesful. Technically there were plenty of better machines around at the >time, but they didn't have the appeal of coming from a company that >_every_ computer centre and DP manager had heard of. > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 10 03:25:52 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <004d01be832b$bfca6f60$0100c0a8@fuj03> It would be well to get the timelines aligned. The model 1 was of 1977 vintage. The model -3 was worked up in the late '70's before Apple got its juggernaut rolling. Radio Shack had a real chance to make the microcomputer market its own. No one had a decent sales and service network, not to suggest that Radio Shack's was really decent, but at least it was there. The Model 3 was out in '81? by which time double density was "old hat" and by 1982-1983, Apple had the door closed. Having turned out two (if not more) pieces of relative rubbish, the RS people had no chance after 1983. IBM was gaining acceptance (nobody ever got fired for buying IBM, right?) and ultimately legitimized the PC for "respectable" business use. By mid '84, the 8-bitters were in the "Komputerdaemmerung." Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 5:09 PM Subject: Re: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism > >It could but the opto isolator used to keep the hot chassis and the video >seperate wasn't up to the task. Bypassed and of course using an isolation >transformer it was much crisper even at 80 cols. > > >My dog, don't tell DEC that or intel. > ><> was SLOW. The Z-80-card in the Apple was significantly (and noticeably) ><> faster. The two machines otherwise occupied about the same desk space, a > >Than the TRS80, every thing was faster. Next to my S100 CPM crate with a >real 4mhz z80 and no wait state memory they were both slow. > ><> aside from the stupid, Stupid, STUPID choice to leave the Tandy machine' ><> display at 16 lines of 64 characters (about half of what was on a 24x80, > >As it works 64wide was more useful for word processing than 32 or 40. > >Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 10 03:34:31 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <006001be832c$f4ce19e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 5:34 PM Subject: Re: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism >On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: >> > My dog, don't tell DEC that or intel. > >Sorry, I should have said that it was not readily achievable for RADIO >SHACK, not that it wasn't possible. It took RS a few more years before >they were ready to have MFM in one of their consumer level machines. >RS's early FM had some data separation problems; I assume that that was >due to trying to keep the cost too low? > The RS people had their heads wedged, probably due to politics. They used a strange mix of parts, seemingly cobbled together from various vendors' app notes. Their FDC used a TI TTL VCO, a Motorola phase detector, and a Western Digital controller chip. Additionally they used some wierd TI clock generator and some other stuff I couldn't justify. Their clock recovery circuit was pretty poor, i.e. poorer than average, and cost about 6x what I was used to seeing. Their dynamic memory handling wasn't any sort of slick, nor was their video circuit. They could have used a circuit similar to what the Xerox 820 had from day 1. It was an old design from a simple terminal and would freuently work on a modified TV set, which is all RS was shipping anyway. It's clear that there was politics and corruption at the top. Dick > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Apr 9 23:55:33 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: [OT] <10 yo DG Aviion Message-ID: <199904100937.CAA07391@mxu3.u.washington.edu> ---------- > From: David Williams > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: [OT] <10 yo DG Aviion > Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 6:20 > > I know this system isn't 10 years old yet, but a company I use to > work for gave me a 88000 based Data General Aviion. I believe it is > an AV 4625 model if I'm reading the back right. DG's site only > talks about P-II and P-III based Aviions with nothing about the > earlier 88000 based ones. Anyone have any web site pointers or > info on these for me? I'm currently hitting each of the main search > sites without much luck. I got one of those things. 33mhz 88k with 32mb ram and a couple of 500mb scsi drives. Not sure if it's the same model, but came loaded with DG unix, which I eventually managed to get in to. I did find a couple of sites with a fair bit of gear for the 88k. I'll dig up the url and mail it to you. Is your system complete? I lack the mouse and a monitor. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 10 04:37:29 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <004d01be832b$bfca6f60$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > It would be well to get the timelines aligned. The model 1 was of 1977 > vintage. The model -3 was worked up in the late '70's before Apple got its > juggernaut rolling. Radio Shack had a real chance to make the microcomputer > market its own. No one had a decent sales and service network, not to So they had a chance if...what? The fact is they didn't so why bother to speculate over past history. > suggest that Radio Shack's was really decent, but at least it was there. > The Model 3 was out in '81? by which time double density was "old hat" and > by 1982-1983, Apple had the door closed. Having turned out two (if not > more) pieces of relative rubbish, the RS people had no chance after 1983. Actually, the Model II/12/16 machines seemed to have done quite well in the small business arena. In my opinion, the II/12/16 are very nicely designed machines, and I've enjoyed even the litle time I've spent with the ones in my collection. TRSDOS-II is quite robust (surprisingly). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 10 04:40:30 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <006001be832c$f4ce19e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The RS people had their heads wedged, probably due to politics. They used a > strange mix of parts, seemingly cobbled together from various vendors' app > notes. Their FDC used a TI TTL VCO, a Motorola phase detector, and a > Western Digital controller chip. Additionally they used some wierd TI clock > generator and some other stuff I couldn't justify. Their clock recovery > circuit was pretty poor, i.e. poorer than average, and cost about 6x what I > was used to seeing. Their dynamic memory handling wasn't any sort of slick, > nor was their video circuit. Rumor has it the Model 1 design was stolen from a third party consultant by a less than talented head engineer at Radio Shack, and purportedly made into the production model, bugs and all, so its not surprising that other RS hardware was designed shoddily. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sat Apr 10 04:48:35 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <199904100948.CAA07861@mxu3.u.washington.edu> ---------- > From: Sellam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism > Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 7:10 > Rumor has it the Model 1 design was stolen from a third party consultant > by a less than talented head engineer at Radio Shack, and purportedly made > into the production model, bugs and all, so its not surprising that other > RS hardware was designed shoddily. RS is colloquial for "Rat Sh-t" in Oz, They don't market under that name here, but as Tandy or Micronta. (Accurate product description though isn't it?) Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 10 05:16:51 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: FM, MFM, and GCR channel codes (was Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive) In-Reply-To: <990409201450.20c0015d@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) References: <990409201450.20c0015d@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <19990410101651.32397.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tim wrote: > I think you're confused as to what I was disagreeing with, and > that's probably my fault for not explaining myself more clearly. I was > disagreeing with what I believe to be your assertion, Eric, that > you can take any FM data channel, pump about 50% more data through it with > GCR, and pump twice as much data through it with MFM. I don't think I ever asserted that. > At first glance, this might lead you to believe that the bandwidth > needed for a FM encoding that gives you a data rate of 250kHz > will also support a MFM encoding at 500kHz. It isn't this simple; > if you do a Fourier transform of the MFM stream you'll see that you > do indeed more bandwidth for MFM. I thought about this for a few minutes. Ignoring rise and fall times, for 250 kHz FM, I expect to see spectral peaks at 250 kHz and 500 kHz. For 500 kHz MFM, I expect to see peaks at 250 kHz, 375 kHz, and 500 kHz. Therefore, it seems to me that a channel with reasonably flat response from 250 kHz to 500 kHz should be able to handle either 250 kHz FM or 500 kHz MFM. However, since you've got me curious as to whether there's some hole in this reasoning, I've just put together a C program to simulate FM, MFM, and Apple GCR coding, for all-zeros, all-ones, random, and "6db6" data, with adjustable resolution and edge rates. (What shape should the edges be, and what are reasonable edge rates for this analysis?) Now I just need to find suitable FFT and plotting programs for Linux. Ptolemy? GNUplot? I'm tired now, so I'll look at it tomorrow. > There are twice as many places in a MFM > data stream where a transition *may* take place, as compared to a FM data > stream at the same data rate. The maximum number of transitions per time > remains the same. Your last sentence was the point I was actually making, though I didn't explain it very clearly. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 10 05:30:35 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: FM, MFM, and GCR channel codes (was Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive) In-Reply-To: <19990410101651.32397.qmail@brouhaha.com> (message from Eric Smith on 10 Apr 1999 10:16:51 -0000) References: <990409201450.20c0015d@trailing-edge.com> <19990410101651.32397.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <19990410103035.32443.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > I thought about this for a few minutes. Ignoring rise and fall times, > for 250 kHz FM, I expect to see spectral peaks at 250 kHz and 500 kHz. > > For 500 kHz MFM, I expect to see peaks at 250 kHz, 375 kHz, and 500 kHz. Oops, I wasn't thinking clearly enough about how the write channel works, so I was off by a factor of two. That should have been 125 and 250 kHz for the FM case, and 125, 187.5, and 250 kHz for the MFM case. > Therefore, it seems to me that a channel with reasonably flat response from > 250 kHz to 500 kHz should be able to handle either 250 kHz FM or 500 kHz ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Make that 125 kHz to 250 kHz From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 10 07:07:57 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) Message-ID: <990410080757.20c0015d@trailing-edge.com> >>> There should be >>>some plastic catches (or more likely the remains of same) on the PSU. > >>I've found that most half-inch tape seals have latches which are >>quite amenable to being used as replacements for the original plastic >>catches :-). >Tim, >I think I'm going to have to plead ignorant here. What are "half-inch tape >seals"? You know those 2400-foot, 600-foot, and other lengths of half-inch tape that are used in 7-track and 9-track drives? The reels are commonly enclosed in plastic straps with latches; the strap with the latch is the "tape seal". I think "Tape Seal" may actually be a trademark of Wright Line. The latch part usually has a plastic hook extending from it that you can hang the tape up by on a Wright Line tape stand or cabinet. There are non-Wright-Line tape seals with very different plastic designs that serve the same general purpose, but are specifically designed for auto-loading tape drives. These seem to be more common in IBM shops. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jon at techniche.com Sat Apr 10 07:32:16 1999 From: jon at techniche.com (Jon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: Don Lancaster was Re: Ebay Mark-8 Plans Message-ID: <199904101232.IAA02610@chmls06.mediaone.net> Hi Sam, Possible suggestion for a speaker............Steve Ciarcia (SP?) You know the hardware guy who used to have a column in Byte and then started several of his own magazines. He also wrote "how to build a z80 home computer" (or something very close to that, I don't have it in front of me). He came to mind because I've been working in Conn for the last several months and I keep bumping into folks who know him. I also hear that there is a monthly dinner meeting of the ex-members of a now defunct computer club not far from where I am working and that he often shows up. I know that he cammme on the scene later than some of the other people who have been mentioned as past or future VCF speakers, but he certainly meets the >10 rule. By the way does the VCF pay the speakers? Or their travel? Jon >On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > >> At 04:27 PM 4/9/99, Dave wrote: >> > >> >The seller also has the RE TVT plans by Don Lancaster. >> >> Speaking of Don Lancaster, has anyone asked him to speak at VCF or told >> him about this list? He's been involved with the home PCs since the >> beginning and is probably a wealth of infomation. > >I invited him to speak for VCF 1.0 but he wasy busy and told me to try >again some other time. Maybe I'll try again this year. > >On that topic, if anyone would like to suggest a speaker for VCF 3.0 (or >even be a speaker themself!) then please drop me a line with your >suggestion. Thanks! > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > > From transit at primenet.com Sat Apr 10 09:16:19 1999 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: Speaking of Tandy & TRS-80 (was: Re: What if,... early PCs In-Reply-To: <001a01be8325$726b0f00$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: Does anyone remember a similar electronics store called "Lafayette"? They were a big chain, probably not nearly as big as Tandy Radio Shack though; I think they went under in 1980 or 1981. Was Lafayette planning to sell a personal computer similar to the TRS-80? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From steverob at hotoffice.com Sat Apr 10 09:53:47 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: Speaking of Tandy & TRS-80 (was: Re: What if,... early PCs Message-ID: <01BE8340.6999B820.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Saturday, April 10, 1999 10:16 AM, Charles P. Hobbs [SMTP:transit@primenet.com] wrote: > > > Does anyone remember a similar electronics store called "Lafayette"? They > were a big chain, probably not nearly as big as Tandy Radio Shack though; > I think they went under in 1980 or 1981 I used to visit the Lafayette store in Ft. Lauderdale on a regular basis. IIRC this was in the Early 70's. The store primarily had audio gear, HAM equipment, and electronics components. Similar to the Radio Shacks of that time. As a matter of fact, I still have a Lafayette Stereo Amplifier at home. I used it for about 10 years then it quit working on one channel. Probably a bad output transister. I just never got around to fixing it... I don't recall ever seeing any digital stuff in the stores. Of course this was VERY early in the micro-processor development stage. Steve Robertson - From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 10 09:57:28 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <001001be8362$867375e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Anything's possible, of course, and when you haven't got access to what you're working with in terms of the organization, it doesn't help you to understand what their goals are. The unit we delivered, was rock solid, though. It would handle diskettes like nothing Tandy ever delivered, even much later, though much of the credit goes to the programmer who wrote the low-level code. I avoided coding whenever I could, and, I guess, still do. By means of a slide-switch, it changed the memory map such that hardware appeared as hardware should, in one position for TRSDOS, and the other for CP/M. We got paid in full, and promptly, so I guess the RS people weren't disappointed. I don't know the history of the Model-1, I know they had a much better prototype at their disposal than the production units they chose to ship. It always "hurt" just a bit to see them ship that piece of dirt when they had such a decent option. The sad thing is, the marketplace proved we were on the right track. People wanted to use the box for CP/M, so they bought a "mapper" which, as an option, remapped the addresses to make the low-end ROM go away and replace it with RAM. Somebody sold a video enhancement which attempted to fudge the video around so it displayed 24x80, but I'd like to have seen that at least once, and there were several "enhanced" data separators on the market for the model-3. As for the model 2, I never saw one of these that wasn't for sale. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 3:47 AM Subject: Re: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism >On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> The RS people had their heads wedged, probably due to politics. They used a >> strange mix of parts, seemingly cobbled together from various vendors' app >> notes. Their FDC used a TI TTL VCO, a Motorola phase detector, and a >> Western Digital controller chip. Additionally they used some wierd TI clock >> generator and some other stuff I couldn't justify. Their clock recovery >> circuit was pretty poor, i.e. poorer than average, and cost about 6x what I >> was used to seeing. Their dynamic memory handling wasn't any sort of slick, >> nor was their video circuit. > >Rumor has it the Model 1 design was stolen from a third party consultant >by a less than talented head engineer at Radio Shack, and purportedly made >into the production model, bugs and all, so its not surprising that other >RS hardware was designed shoddily. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 10 10:49:10 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: FM, MFM, and GCR channel codes (was Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive) Message-ID: <001901be8369$bc6cbc40$0100c0a8@fuj03> YES! and that's exactly why the pulse overlap was correctable with write-precompensation at least in hard disks at 10x the data rate. In general the amplitude of the pulses was sufficient to be detected by the usual circuitry, but because the timing was quite far off due to the peak shift introduced by the summing effect of the head/media combination. Precompensation, which was not needed for FM, was between 188 and 125 nsec, depending on the drives in use. On the older drives, 188 was pretty common. The "bit-shift" was mitigated somewhat by the reduction of write-current on the inner tracks. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 4:36 AM Subject: Re: FM, MFM, and GCR channel codes (was Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive) >I wrote: > >> I thought about this for a few minutes. Ignoring rise and fall times, >> for 250 kHz FM, I expect to see spectral peaks at 250 kHz and 500 kHz. >> >> For 500 kHz MFM, I expect to see peaks at 250 kHz, 375 kHz, and 500 kHz. > >Oops, I wasn't thinking clearly enough about how the write channel works, so I >was off by a factor of two. That should have been 125 and 250 kHz for the FM >case, and 125, 187.5, and 250 kHz for the MFM case. > >> Therefore, it seems to me that a channel with reasonably flat response from >> 250 kHz to 500 kHz should be able to handle either 250 kHz FM or 500 kHz > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Make that > 125 kHz to 250 kHz > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 10 10:53:08 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: Speaking of Tandy & TRS-80 (was: Re: What if,... early PCs Message-ID: <002201be836a$3adbadc0$0100c0a8@fuj03> There was another one I haven't seen in a couple of decades, called Allied. I once worked for a subsidiary of another Allied Electronics, so they must have been gone by then. Laffayette was a place where I bought audio components, e.g. speakers, crossover networks, passive radiators, grille-cloth, etc. Of course that was in the '60's . . . When the periodic table was easy to memorize, . . . let's see, there was air, earth . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Steve Robertson To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 9:01 AM Subject: RE: Speaking of Tandy & TRS-80 (was: Re: What if,... early PCs >On Saturday, April 10, 1999 10:16 AM, Charles P. Hobbs >[SMTP:transit@primenet.com] wrote: >> >> >> Does anyone remember a similar electronics store called "Lafayette"? They >> were a big chain, probably not nearly as big as Tandy Radio Shack though; >> I think they went under in 1980 or 1981 > > >I used to visit the Lafayette store in Ft. Lauderdale on a regular basis. >IIRC this was in the Early 70's. The store primarily had audio gear, HAM >equipment, and electronics components. Similar to the Radio Shacks of that >time. > >As a matter of fact, I still have a Lafayette Stereo Amplifier at home. I >used it for about 10 years then it quit working on one channel. Probably a >bad output transister. I just never got around to fixing it... > >I don't recall ever seeing any digital stuff in the stores. Of course this >was VERY early in the micro-processor development stage. > >Steve Robertson - > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Apr 10 11:43:53 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: Identify this vector Graphics machine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990410114353.3fb73902@intellistar.net> At 11:27 PM 4/9/99 -0700, George wrote: >Somebody liked it.... It is gone! George, That's becuase you ignored the first rule of hamfest, surplus store and trift store shopping: If it looks interesting, buy it! Joe From dlw at trailingedge.com Sat Apr 10 11:14:00 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: [OT] <10 yo DG Aviion In-Reply-To: <199904100937.CAA07391@mxu3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199904101615.LAA20892@trailingedge.com> On 10 Apr 99, at 14:25, Geoff Roberts wrote: > I got one of those things. 33mhz 88k with 32mb ram and a couple of 500mb > scsi drives. Not sure if it's the same model, but came loaded with DG > unix, which I eventually managed to get in to. I did find a couple of > sites with a fair bit of gear for the 88k. I'll dig up the url and mail > it to you. Is your system complete? I lack the mouse and a monitor. Well, it appears this system is from around 1991 or 1992 so it isn't far from the 10 year rule. It seems to have dual 88k processors with 64 mb ram. Not sure of the drives (they are SCSI) as their way of reporting mounted disks is throwing me. I'll have to open it up and look. Running DG/UX 5.4.2. I don't have the mouse or monitor which could plug directly into the system. I'm running a vt100 clone terminal on the console port at the moment. Now, if anyone out there has any experience with DG/UX or these AViiONs please contact me. This system has a built in ethernet port but it wasn't configured as the company installed a token ring card and used that instead. I'd like to hook this to my network but haven't been able to get the internal ethernet setup. Also, the DG terminal which came with it has a standard IBM 101 type keyboard but appears to be misconfigured for the console port. I've tried lots of key combos but can't figure how to enter a setup mode so I can set the main port for 8N1 which is what the console port comes up as. Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From jrice at texoma.net Sat Apr 10 11:21:52 1999 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: OT: copying OS/2 Warp References: Message-ID: <370F7AA0.260C251F@texoma.net> I found my copy of Warp3 at a flea market, still shrinkwrapped for $10.00. "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > >Hi, > >I managed to borrow a hard drive with OS/2 warp on it from someone. I want > >to copy it onto my own drive. How do I do this? I know that in DOS, I > >would do a sys command to make the drive bootable. There is no sys command > >here. What should I do? > > > >--Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > > You go to the store and you BUY a copy of OS/2 Warp. OS/2 is a commercial > product that is still available in stores. Either that or you can probably > buy a used copy, although I don't know what transfering the license entails. > > Last I checked OS/2 Warp V3 and V4 were both available. I've heard a new > version is actually in the works (despite the fact I used to be a huge OS/2 > fan I find that a little hard to believe). > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | -- ICQ 2286850 Home Page http://home.texoma.net/~jrice Classic Comp Page at http://home.texoma.net/~jrice/classiccomp.html Robotics Page at ttp://home.texoma.net/~jrice/hobbies.html All pages under construction! From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Apr 10 11:36:35 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: OT: copying OS/2 Warp In-Reply-To: from Max Eskin at "Apr 9, 1999 10: 9:55 pm" Message-ID: <199904101636.MAA33844@pechter.dyndns.org> > On Fri, 9 Apr 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > >os2 has sysinstx instead. you'll need to boot from 3 os2 utility disks and > >then invoke the command. > > I tried that. Then using LILO to boot produces an illegible error message > by the OS2 partition. > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) After installing OS/2 you need to reset and reconfigure Lilo. Is the OS/2 system being set dual boot in one primary dos partition? Is it hpfs? Is it in a secondary partition. Details are important. Bill (who's got OS/2 version 5 on order if it ever gets shipped) --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 10 13:57:13 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) In-Reply-To: <990410080757.20c0015d@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >>I think I'm going to have to plead ignorant here. What are "half-inch tape >>seals"? > >You know those 2400-foot, 600-foot, and other lengths of half-inch tape >that are used in 7-track and 9-track drives? The reels are commonly OK, now it makes sense, I was thinking something like masking, or duct tape, not computer tape. I'm just a little to familiar with what you're talking about, I'd just never thought of using them for anything other than their intended purpose. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From fpp at concentric.net Sat Apr 10 13:08:02 1999 From: fpp at concentric.net (Paul Passmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-8 questions Message-ID: <002901be837d$1414a300$8bfaadce@paul> > I saw a H-8 on eBay tonight. What year were these made? > The year was about 1976-77. Saw it at the Heathkit store in LA. That > and the 16 convinced them to go full steam into computers and rest is > out of business history! >Don't you mean the H-11? Ah, yes you are right it was the 11. I remember looking at a DEC terminal , chain drive printer and keyboard for about $1500. It was cheaper at Heath than any other dealer. Had to be ordered though as the warranty started when it left the DEC loading dock. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Apr 10 09:09:12 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: OT: copying OS/2 Warp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199904101808.OAA04859@smtp.interlog.com> On 9 Apr 99 at 18:21, Max Eskin wrote: > Hi, > I managed to borrow a hard drive with OS/2 warp on it from someone. I want > to copy it onto my own drive. How do I do this? I know that in DOS, I > would do a sys command to make the drive bootable. There is no sys command > here. What should I do? > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > > One solution is the shareware program HD COPY readily available. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From rexstout at uswest.net Sat Apr 10 14:13:57 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: Speaking of Tandy & TRS-80 (was: Re: What if,... early PCs In-Reply-To: <002201be836a$3adbadc0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: >There was another one I haven't seen in a couple of decades, called Allied. >I once worked for a subsidiary of another Allied Electronics, so they must >have been gone by then. The old Allied combined with RatShack... Take a look at some of the ads before they disappeared and it says "Allied Radio Shack", and is now just plain old Radio Shack... There is another Allied around(I have an older catalog around here somewhere), but it's more for commercial users, although I suppose they don't mind hobbyists. They have sales offices just about everywhere, there's one here in Portland, OR... But I don't remember what the web URL is. -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From spc at armigeron.com Sat Apr 10 14:12:34 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <004001be832a$4eb36f80$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 10, 99 02:15:08 am Message-ID: <199904101912.PAA01825@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3752 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990410/5eed764f/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 10 14:35:07 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) Message-ID: <199904101935.AA25844@world.std.com> < <>That is not an 8E, it a frankenmonster in a 8m crate. < Message-ID: <199904102011.NAA25671@bart.allegro.com> Allison writes: > They were nothing like TANDY. ... > They were long gone by '79. Correct...nothing like *Tandy*, but quite similar to Radio Shack ... perhaps with a better mail order line, IIRC and a bit more oriented towards parts and radio. The last one I saw was in Sunnyvale/Santa Clara (here in the Bay Area) around 1980/1981. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Apr 10 15:26:05 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: source for foam filter material Message-ID: <199904102026.UAA24193@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Does anyone know where I might be able to buy some thin black foam filter material, to replace the stuiff that was used on my Teral computers? These systems have a large fan that draws air into the computer, and the intake air goes through this very thin filter, in order to capture large particles such as lint. After 22+ years, that foam is nothing more than dust. I would need something almost 5 inches wide, that i could then trim to the proper shape. -Lawrence LeMay From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 10 15:50:00 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: source for foam filter material Message-ID: <000601be8393$b393ed80$0100c0a8@fuj03> At your local discount store, you should be able to find some fairly large scouring sponges, I've found that these work adequately as filters, provided you put a layer of porous cloth over the downstream side to catch the finest particles. If you're fortunate enough to find the really fine ones, the cloth isn't needed. These come in 1/4" thick postcard-sized sheets, which I usually cut up anyway, so give these a try and see if they meet your needs. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 2:33 PM Subject: source for foam filter material >Does anyone know where I might be able to buy some thin black foam filter >material, to replace the stuiff that was used on my Teral computers? >These systems have a large fan that draws air into the computer, and >the intake air goes through this very thin filter, in order to capture >large particles such as lint. > >After 22+ years, that foam is nothing more than dust. > >I would need something almost 5 inches wide, that i could then trim to >the proper shape. > >-Lawrence LeMay From ddameron at earthlink.net Sat Apr 10 12:45:04 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: Speaking of Tandy & TRS-80 (was: Re: What if,... early PCs In-Reply-To: References: <002201be836a$3adbadc0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990410124504.2f172d50@earthlink.net> At 12:13 PM 4/10/99 -0700, you wrote: >>There was another one I haven't seen in a couple of decades, called Allied. >>I once worked for a subsidiary of another Allied Electronics, so they must >>have been gone by then. > Yes, there were Allied (Knight Kit, etc.) stores back in the early 70's. (HQ in Chicago). I remember one in Atlanta near Ga Tech. The current industrial distributor is what it bacame. I think there was a Lafayette too there someplace too. (I only remember one in Richmond, VA, the HQ was on Long Island) Another chain was Olson. Radio Shack was once a small number of stores at/near Boston, but I never got to visit it then. One can find their ads in QST's, though. -Dave From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Apr 10 16:08:36 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: source for foam filter material References: <000601be8393$b393ed80$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <370FBDD2.EC0B8FE7@bigfoot.com> Two others: the foam wrapping on some laser printer toner/drum units and in Walmart/Kmart/hardware stores they carry "trim-to-fit" foam that precedes your furnace filter, sometimes used to be a filter replacement for air conditioners. They also carry a "craft foam" but it's too open. Richard Erlacher wrote: > At your local discount store, you should be able to find some fairly large > scouring sponges, I've found that these work adequately as filters, > provided you put a layer of porous cloth over the downstream side to catch > the finest particles. If you're fortunate enough to find the really fine > ones, the cloth isn't needed. These come in 1/4" thick postcard-sized > sheets, which I usually cut up anyway, so give these a try and see if they > meet your needs. > > Dick > -----Original Message----- > From: Lawrence LeMay > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 2:33 PM > Subject: source for foam filter material > > >Does anyone know where I might be able to buy some thin black foam filter > >material, to replace the stuiff that was used on my Teral computers? > >These systems have a large fan that draws air into the computer, and > >the intake air goes through this very thin filter, in order to capture > >large particles such as lint. > > > >After 22+ years, that foam is nothing more than dust. > > > >I would need something almost 5 inches wide, that i could then trim to > >the proper shape. > > > >-Lawrence LeMay From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Apr 10 16:12:34 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: source for foam filter material References: <199904102026.UAA24193@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <370FBEC1.B52619CF@bigfoot.com> Many test equipment sellers/resellers also carry actual foam made for filters but it's (of course) high end pricing. Hewlett Packard dealers/parts distibutors carry it that I know of. I mainly use the foam mentioned in my previous message. Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Does anyone know where I might be able to buy some thin black foam filter > material, to replace the stuiff that was used on my Teral computers? > These systems have a large fan that draws air into the computer, and > the intake air goes through this very thin filter, in order to capture > large particles such as lint. > > After 22+ years, that foam is nothing more than dust. > > I would need something almost 5 inches wide, that i could then trim to > the proper shape. > > -Lawrence LeMay From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 10 16:13:23 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <001301be8397$0a02ab40$0100c0a8@fuj03> I knew somebody woudl come up with a good example. That 6809 code is probably the closest thing I've seen in a micro. The 8051 uses a similar approach, pointing to the table with the datapointer and uses the accumulator as an offset. It does make it a bit awkward passing a parameter in the accumulator, though. In this case, the accumulator is occupied by what's really the only value you'd want to pass anyway under the circumstances. They (DEC) did make the uVax-II as a chipset for interfacing to their BI-bus, I believe, so that might qualify as well. The DEC chipset probably didn't sell for what a 6809 costs, even the faster part, and certainly not the $0.86 I last saw on the 4MHz Rockwell 65C02. The 6502 and its scions save a clock tick every time they loaded an address because the indexing or whatever arithmetic could be done on the low byte while the high byte was being fetched, leaving the carry set or cleared as was required, for the arithmetic on the next byte as was appropriate. Note that the carry was generally irrelevant, as most instructions requiring indexing simply wrapped the PC, but not in all cases. I thing indexed mode addressing was a case where an index could cross a page boundary. The MOT processors could often do the same thing, but they needed to add a clock tick to order the bytes and another to propagate the carry if appropriate (I think). It wasn't that sort of hair-splitting I was after, but rather, a contrast between the simple, elegant instruction set of one processor, versus the not-so elegant instruction set of "the other" meaning the intel/zilog clan. I'm not surprised that it was in the 6809 that this instruction came up. The 6809 showed lots of promise at first, but once it was in hand, one clearly could see that it would be MUCH easier going with the MC68008 if one had to use an 8-bit bus. I never had the opportunity to write in a high-level language for the 6809, but I was told it should have been quite easy to write a high-quality efficient compiler for it because of its repertioire of instructions and addressing modes. I turned out literally tens of thousands of lines of assembler code for it and never used this feature, though. It's likely most of my code would have run on a 6802 or 6803 just as easily. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 1:27 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) >It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: >> >> At the risk of becoming the resident infidel . . . >> >> The 6502, particularly in its later incarnation by Rockwell embodied the >> cleverness fostered by its earlier versions and the non-Intel family of >> processors. How the elegance of their instruction set became lost is a >> mystery to me. > > I've never been a real fan of the 6502, it seemingly geared more towards >embedded systems than for a general purpose computer. But that's just me >8-) > >> On a 65C02 from Rockwell (making the distinction because there were several >> CMOS 6502's, all slightly different) you load the input value into an index >> register and then jump, indexed indirect, to the routine which is >> appropriate for that pattern of inputs. This requires, then, that you have >> a table with 256 bytes, more correctly 128 words, with each word the >> address of the routine which is used to process the left-justified ASCII >> data. >> >> This is tremendously fast! It requires no STACK, and it requires only two >> instructions. Another way of doing this involves building a stack frame and >> loading the return address with a value looked up in a table, then executing >> a return. This can be done with any number of processors. On a Z-80 you >> can jmp HL, and I'm sure there are other neat ways of doing this simple >> thing. I've never seen anything more elegant than that simplistic sequence >> on the 65C02. How the MOTOROLA people let this go by the wayside in the >> design of their 6809, 6801, 68K family, and countless others puzzles me. >> I've not made an extensive study of other processors, but I have looked at a >> few. The only processor I've used which has a similar mechanism at its >> disposal is the 8051 core. It has a data register which can be used as an >> offset for a jump instruction. > > If I understand the problem correctly, then what you want can be done on >the 6809 as two instructions as well (okay, three, but the first one is only >there for setup): > > LDX #JMPTAB > MAIN: LDA UART > JMP [A,X] > > > As long as X is unchanged, your overhead is two instructions. Also, if >you want to use X for something else, you still have Y or U for use as well >(okay, you can use S, but then it gets a bit harder 8-) > > But if you want elegance, go with the VAX---one statement: > > caseb uart,0,255 > jmptab: .word c00 - jmptab > .word c01 - jmptab > > ; ... > > .word cff - jmptab > > And with this, you don't even have to jury rig a special UART. > > In fact, the VAX is about as elegant as they come---you have 16 general >purpose registers and the PC is one of them (R15). Not only that, but all >addressing modes work on all instructions---it's very regular and with some >practice you can probably end up reading hex dumps directly. It's a very >nice assembly language. > >> Now, I doubt that anything that simple can be used to discriminate between >> what's "best" and what's not, but it's for certain that it's a nice feature >> not available on the 6809. I used the 6809 extensively while I was in the >> aerospace industry, and found it fairly friendly. BUT, it still is >> relatively slow, as compared with processors of the same generation from >> sources clever enough to arrange the bytes the other way around in memory so >> you didn't have to fetch and the discard a high byte when there wasn't one. >> Fortunately, many tasks don't require a really fast processor. > > I don't follow. You either care about a 16-bit quantity, or you don't, >but I may be biased---my first CPU was a 6809 and when I switched to the >Intel x86 architecture, I didn't like the little endianess of it at all, but >I never found the bigendianess to be a real problem. > > -spc (Then there's the ARM ... ) > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 10 17:17:47 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: source for foam filter material In-Reply-To: <199904102026.UAA24193@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >Does anyone know where I might be able to buy some thin black foam filter >material, to replace the stuiff that was used on my Teral computers? >These systems have a large fan that draws air into the computer, and >the intake air goes through this very thin filter, in order to capture >large particles such as lint. Have you tried any kind of industrial supply places? The downside of them would probably be the quantity they would want to sell you :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 10 16:21:12 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:00 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <002e01be8398$0f869b20$0100c0a8@fuj03> Please see imbedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 1:44 PM Subject: Re: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism > >Model 1 (base trs80) was 1977 (mid year). I was part of the start up in >the computer depot repair and computer store startup. That's what I recall, as well. >The next machine did not ship until after august 1979! I was there up to >that point. Actually I think it was the 1980s(or 1980!) that the next >version of the TRS80 family shipped. The IBM entry into the PC market was in mid-1981, I think, and the Model-3 was rushed to get out ahead of it. The Apple-II exlposion wasn't quite underway yet, but the handwriting was on the wall. >The motly collection of parts... For years RS ment surplus parts in plastic >bags and the late 70s was sort of their weaning. Except the purchasing >mindset was there. > >If anything can be said... they were one of the few that didn't go broke >shipping computers. That's why they'd have been a force to be reckoned with if they'd ever shipped anything really decent. >Oh, and Apple shipped their machine the same year as the TRS80. so they >represent the state of the art for 1977 for cost vs tradeoffs. > >Allison > > From jpero at cgocable.net Sat Apr 10 16:40:00 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: 1518 and 1538, full manual for both wanted. In-Reply-To: References: <199904090521.BAA12114@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgocable.net" at Apr 9, 99 01:26:35 am Message-ID: <199904102135.RAA11015@mail.cgocable.net> Needs to be full info on all jumpers used on the HDs. Here's the problem I'm having. I'm using Ultrastor 12F-24 controller. This is 24Mb rated card for these two drives. I can't get r/w after LLF with onboard bios of that card, but I can work with the either HD's and I'm sure the 20pin cable (did removed connectors, cutoff "bad" part then recrimped) is good and PSU is healthy. The controller can pull up the hd specs correctly. The sector type selection is correct for the PC use but I think some other jumper settings is not correct for this. Might was setup for non pc applications but uses same 512 sector type on one and different sector size on other. Thanks! Details: 1538 is .9 GB formatted, part #XS0030-01-7E UK 1518 is 1.3 GB formatted, part #TS0021-01-1 NOTE: tried .go2net.com search, theref and blue planet with little luck. Wizard From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 10 16:58:54 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: 8/E PSU resolution In-Reply-To: <199904101935.AA26116@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990410145214.00acd6d0@mcmanis.com> Mine's set up pretty similar except for two differences... At 03:35 PM 4/10/99 -0400, Allison J Parent wrote: >Here is the lineup from mine and the recommended board layout. > >54-09668 KC8FL PDP-8/F Programmer's Console >M8330 KK8E Timing board, replaces M833 M8340 KE8-E Extended arithmetic element decoder and step counter M8341 KE8-K Extended arithmetic element multiplexers and timing >M8310 KK8E Major register control >M8300 KK8E Major registers And on mine this board: >M837 MC8E Extended Memory and Time Share Control Is right in front of the RFI shield (and core stack) Sort of "all components of the memory subsystem together" kind of thing :-) --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 10 16:16:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) In-Reply-To: <990409224528.20c0015d@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM" at Apr 9, 99 10:45:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1098 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990410/1cceae58/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 10 16:26:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990409210102.00b90d30@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 9, 99 09:07:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1666 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990410/d4f79863/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 10 16:30:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) In-Reply-To: <199904100432.AA26160@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 10, 99 00:32:06 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 700 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990410/58d6659c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 10 16:18:57 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990409200957.00b79100@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 9, 99 08:36:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 668 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990410/b89b6966/attachment.ksh From max82 at surfree.com Sat Apr 10 15:57:19 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: OT: copying OS/2 Warp In-Reply-To: <199904101636.MAA33844@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Bill Pechter wrote: >After installing OS/2 you need to reset and reconfigure Lilo. >Is the OS/2 system being set dual boot in one primary dos partition? >Is it hpfs? >Is it in a secondary partition. I reset Lilo. The OS/2 system is in a primary DOS partition on the slave drive, primary controller (/dev/hdb4). I type OS/2 and it gives two error code numbers and freezes up. These are OS/2 errors, so Lilo must be configured correctly. It's not illegal, because it's getting erased from the original drive. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From max82 at surfree.com Sat Apr 10 16:00:07 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: PICK OS Message-ID: I saw an interesting book at the library today about something called PICK OS. I didn't get to look through the entire book, but I read enough to see that it refers to directories as dictionaries. It seems to take a novel approach, but I know nothing about it. Haven't even heard of it. Does anyone here know more? Does anyone here have the PC version (mentioned in the book)? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 10 17:04:31 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: Variac Message-ID: I have a Variac here that I need help connecting up. The terminals on it are as follows: O 2 4 O | | wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww / \ O O <--><------100V------><--> 20v | 20v O The "2" and "4" are what is labelled on those terminals. The "O" are the terminal connectors. The "w"'s are windings as depicted on the terminal panel. The panel also shows the voltages as depicted. I'm assuming the output is 2 and 4. But what is the input? The 20v sections seemingly say that you can tap off of them to get some combination of 20V, 120V or 140V? Please help! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 10 17:17:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: 8/E PSU resolution In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990410145214.00acd6d0@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 10, 99 02:58:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1490 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990410/ff934696/attachment.ksh From emu at ecubics.com Sat Apr 10 17:20:46 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: seagate st1280n Message-ID: <19990410221939.AAA11961@1Cust183.tnt22.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi all, anybody has a manual for this disks ? thanks, emanuel From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 10 17:25:19 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: source for foam filter material In-Reply-To: <199904102026.UAA24193@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Does anyone know where I might be able to buy some thin black foam filter > material, to replace the stuiff that was used on my Teral computers? > These systems have a large fan that draws air into the computer, and > the intake air goes through this very thin filter, in order to capture > large particles such as lint. > > After 22+ years, that foam is nothing more than dust. So if the purpose of the foam was to cpature the dust, what captured the foam? (: Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Apr 10 17:26:44 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: PICK OS In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 10, 99 05:00:07 pm Message-ID: <199904102226.PAA14603@saul9.u.washington.edu> > I saw an interesting book at the library today about something called PICK > OS. I didn't get to look through the entire book, but I read enough to see > that it refers to directories as dictionaries. It seems to take a novel > approach, but I know nothing about it. Haven't even heard of it. Does > anyone here know more? Does anyone here have the PC version (mentioned in > the book)? I don't have the PC version of PICK, or any books. I've heard a little about PICK. It's geared toward database work (the "dictionary" term indicates a database-style implementation, rather than just being a funky name). The unappealing thing about PICK (for me) is that it's not extensable like UNIX -- for a while, BASIC was the chief programming language. Then there was another one (some sort of command language) which created the unpleasant situation that you had to mix languages, because you couldn't do everything you might want in a single language. Maybe things have changed now. I'm sure there's a PICK FAQ somehwere. If you look harder at the library (or look at a college library) you'll probably find some more books too. -- Derek From ddameron at earthlink.net Sat Apr 10 14:11:49 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: Variac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990410141149.23dfcf7a@earthlink.net> Hi Sam, At 03:04 PM 4/10/99 -0700, you wrote: > >I have a Variac here that I need help connecting up. > >The panel also shows the voltages as depicted. I'm assuming the output is >2 and 4. But what is the input? > >The 20v sections seemingly say that you can tap off of them to get some >combination of 20V, 120V or 140V? > Normally the input would be across a 100+20=120 V section (one wire at the CCW end = common, neutral). The output would be across the arm and common so you would get 0 to 140 volts as you turn the dial CW. -Dave From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Apr 10 17:36:51 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Apr 10, 1999 10:57:13 am" Message-ID: <199904102236.SAA34643@pechter.dyndns.org> > >>I think I'm going to have to plead ignorant here. What are "half-inch tape > >>seals"? > > > >You know those 2400-foot, 600-foot, and other lengths of half-inch tape > >that are used in 7-track and 9-track drives? The reels are commonly > > OK, now it makes sense, I was thinking something like masking, or duct > tape, not computer tape. I'm just a little to familiar with what you're > talking about, I'd just never thought of using them for anything other than > their intended purpose. Rotfl. Damn. I missed this use also. And I used to fix 9track drives for a living. I didn't use these or the ez-open IBM rings which were great on the DEC TU77/78's for much. Write ring toss while waiting to PM a machine was common though. (One day, ask me about the DEC story of the customer who epoxied in the write ring area on the 9 track tapes to make sure his operators couldn't put them in to write enable and over-write a backup tape...) Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Apr 10 17:41:34 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: OT: copying OS/2 Warp In-Reply-To: <199904101808.OAA04859@smtp.interlog.com> from Lawrence Walker at "Apr 10, 1999 2: 9:12 pm" Message-ID: <199904102241.SAA34662@pechter.dyndns.org> > On 9 Apr 99 at 18:21, Max Eskin wrote: > > > Hi, > > I managed to borrow a hard drive with OS/2 warp on it from someone. I want > > to copy it onto my own drive. How do I do this? I know that in DOS, I > > would do a sys command to make the drive bootable. There is no sys command > > here. What should I do? > > > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > > > > > One solution is the shareware program HD COPY readily available. > > ciao larry > lwalker@interlog.com > > Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C > > OS/2 xcopy /h /o /t /s /e /r /v followed by sysinstx from the maintenance disks should work for OS/2 (assuming the device drivers and types are the same, the correct bios settings (for IDE/ATA/MFM/RLL/ESDI non-scsi etc) Also the OS/2 boot program IS not the same as the DOS boot blocks. Make a linux recovery boot floppy and reinstall lilo after OS/2. Also, fdisk the partition USING the OS/2 fdisk -- not the linux one. (The OS/2 fdisk and the OS/2 boot manager work great with FreeBSD/Linux and allow you to boot lilo from the OS/2 boot manager) Also, make sure the OS/2 boot partition is under the 1024 cyl range. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Apr 10 17:44:22 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: source for foam filter material In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Apr 10, 1999 3:25:19 pm" Message-ID: <199904102244.SAA34687@pechter.dyndns.org> > On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > Does anyone know where I might be able to buy some thin black foam filter > > material, to replace the stuiff that was used on my Teral computers? > > These systems have a large fan that draws air into the computer, and > > the intake air goes through this very thin filter, in order to capture > > large particles such as lint. > > > > After 22+ years, that foam is nothing more than dust. > > So if the purpose of the foam was to cpature the dust, what captured the > foam? (: > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com The field service guy's vacuum at PM time. (I think that it's partly cosmetic and can be replaced (on most machines like DEC ones) with anything like window Air Conditioner filter foam. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From donm at cts.com Sat Apr 10 18:10:05 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: 1518 and 1538, full manual for both wanted. In-Reply-To: <199904102135.RAA11015@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Apr 1999 jpero@cgocable.net wrote: > Needs to be full info on all jumpers used on the HDs. Here's the > problem I'm having. > > I'm using Ultrastor 12F-24 controller. This is 24Mb rated card for > these two drives. > > I can't get r/w after LLF with onboard bios of that card, but I can > work with the either HD's and I'm sure the 20pin cable (did removed > connectors, cutoff "bad" part then recrimped) is good and PSU is > healthy. The controller can pull up the hd specs correctly. You did FDISK and FORMAT, did you not. Or am I misunderstanding your problem. - don > The sector type selection is correct for the PC use but I think some > other jumper settings is not correct for this. Might was setup for > non pc applications but uses same 512 sector type on one and > different sector size on other. > > Thanks! > > Details: > > 1538 is .9 GB formatted, part #XS0030-01-7E > > UK 1518 is 1.3 GB formatted, part #TS0021-01-1 > > NOTE: tried .go2net.com search, theref and blue planet with little > luck. > > Wizard > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 10 17:26:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: Variac In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 10, 99 03:04:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1541 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990410/150e610e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 10 18:25:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: source for foam filter material In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 10, 99 03:25:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 122 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990411/10863fdd/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Apr 10 18:36:33 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <001301be8397$0a02ab40$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 10, 99 03:13:23 pm Message-ID: <199904102336.QAA29502@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 782 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990410/c66d3bf6/attachment.ksh From at258 at osfn.org Sat Apr 10 18:36:24 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: PICK OS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think PICK runs on the Honeywell DPS systems. Isn't it a business system? On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > I saw an interesting book at the library today about something called PICK > OS. I didn't get to look through the entire book, but I read enough to see > that it refers to directories as dictionaries. It seems to take a novel > approach, but I know nothing about it. Haven't even heard of it. Does > anyone here know more? Does anyone here have the PC version (mentioned in > the book)? > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From jpero at cgocable.net Sat Apr 10 18:51:55 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: Micropolis 1518 and 1538, full manual for both wanted. In-Reply-To: References: <199904102135.RAA11015@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199904102347.TAA22608@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 16:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Don Maslin To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: 1518 and 1538, full manual for both wanted. Originally to: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > You did FDISK and FORMAT, did you not. Or am I misunderstanding your > problem. > - don When using ESDI HD with controller for first time, has to LLF it first then fdisk and format comes next. True for different controllers if changed. BTW; my brain is sleepy, I forgot to say Micropolis. I need jumpers settings not just for drive select and sector size selections. > > Details: > > > > 1538 is .9 GB formatted, part #XS0030-01-7E > > > > UK 1518 is 1.3 GB formatted, part #TS0021-01-1 > > > > NOTE: tried .go2net.com search, theref and blue planet with little > > luck. Wizard From gareth.knight2 at which.net Sat Apr 10 07:11:39 1999 From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: OT: copying OS/2 Warp Message-ID: <000001be83ac$9bbfbb80$0ab7fea9@gaz> Zane H. Healy wrote: >Last I checked OS/2 Warp V3 and V4 were both available. I've heard a new >version is actually in the works (despite the fact I used to be a huge OS/2 >fan I find that a little hard to believe). In its favour OS/2 does have one of the fastest implementations of Java 1. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856 http://welcome.to/aig | "Shine on your star" From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 10 18:51:26 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <199904102351.AA21263@world.std.com> M837 MC8E Extended Memory and Time Share Control < ---------- > From: Zane H. Healy > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: OT: copying OS/2 Warp > Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 2:41 AM > > Last I checked OS/2 Warp V3 and V4 were both available. I've heard a new > version is actually in the works (despite the fact I used to be a huge OS/2 > fan I find that a little hard to believe). AFIK, that's no new version, but a major cleanup. ( A huge OS/2 fan for a long time too) cheers, emanuel From jruschme at exit109.com Sat Apr 10 19:07:21 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: Odd board find In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Apr 10, 99 00:27:54 am" Message-ID: <199904110007.UAA06214@crobin.home.org> > On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, John Ruschmeyer wrote: > > > I came across an odd board in the dumpster at work today. Hopefully > > one of you might recognize it. It appears to be some sort of bubble > > memory board. > > Markings: > > Bubbl-tec > > division of PC/M, Inc. > > > > Copyright 1984 > > PC/M INC. > > > > R-II-AM-BUBBL-A > > > > Anybody recognize this one? > > No, but with a Z80A and ROM onboard it sounds like a single board computer > with a bubble memory for starge. Might possibly be some sort of > high-reliance industrial controller. Nice find! Makes sense given things that go on in the building. > Question: Does it look like this > > http://www.siconic.com/ebay/BUBBLE.gif > > or does the top (lable-side) edge connectors not have gold contacts (only > the bottom)? Looks *exactly* like the picture. Why do you ask? <<>> From mbg at world.std.com Sat Apr 10 19:12:07 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: 8/E PSU resolution Message-ID: <199904110012.AA04924@world.std.com> I didn't get a chance to take pictures of it today, but I did take a look at my 'long' 8/e... The cover is solid. I didn't take a look at the hinged side, but the latch side has hexagonal holes for venting. The tolerences seem very tight between the metal of the case and some very exposed wiring terminals... As for my 8/e, although it hums when I apply power, nothing happened when I turned it on... I checked the fuses, and one of them is missing... I'll try it again when I replace the fuse (I really should have checked that to begin with...) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sat Apr 10 19:16:09 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: Speaking of Tandy & TRS-80 (was: Re: What if,... early PCs Message-ID: <199904110016.AA07906@world.std.com> > They were nothing like TANDY. ... > They were long gone by '79. >Correct...nothing like *Tandy*, but quite similar to Radio Shack ... >perhaps with a better mail order line, IIRC and a bit more oriented >towards parts and radio. The last one I saw was in Sunnyvale/Santa >Clara (here in the Bay Area) around 1980/1981. Lafayette similar to Radio Shack? Bite your tongue... I remember lafayette as having better quality stuff than Radio Shack, regardless of what I was looking for... I remember going over there all the time with my father when I was young... If you wanted something built to last, you got lafayette. If you wanted something built out of cheap plastic, you went to Radio Shack... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From bluoval at mindspring.com Sat Apr 10 19:24:51 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: source for foam filter material References: <199904102026.UAA24193@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <370FEBD3.84B70113@mindspring.com> Why not go down to your local hardware store and buy an a/c filter and trim it to size? Some window mounted a/c units use a black thin black foam sheet under the grating. This should work. Hope this helps. Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Does anyone know where I might be able to buy some thin black foam filter > material, to replace the stuiff that was used on my Teral computers? > These systems have a large fan that draws air into the computer, and > the intake air goes through this very thin filter, in order to capture > large particles such as lint. > > After 22+ years, that foam is nothing more than dust. > > I would need something almost 5 inches wide, that i could then trim to > the proper shape. > > -Lawrence LeMay From danburrows at mindspring.com Sat Apr 10 19:15:57 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: source for foam filter material Message-ID: <024801be83b0$ea46bde0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >> Does anyone know where I might be able to buy some thin black foam filter >> material, to replace the stuiff that was used on my Teral computers? >> These systems have a large fan that draws air into the computer, and >> the intake air goes through this very thin filter, in order to capture >> large particles such as lint. Check your local DEC scrapper. The back doors from SA800's, TU8x, and many system doors had large sheets of it held in place with Velcro like strips. I save them from all the systems that go through here for replacement usage. They are about 1/2 inch thick. Dan From danburrows at mindspring.com Sat Apr 10 19:18:58 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: seagate st1280n Message-ID: <024901be83b0$eb1b24e0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Try http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/specs/st1480n.shtml Dan >Hi all, > >anybody has a manual for this disks ? > >thanks, >emanuel > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 10 19:29:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: 8/E PSU resolution In-Reply-To: <199904110012.AA04924@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Apr 10, 99 08:12:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 652 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990411/9269f194/attachment.ksh From jruschme at exit109.com Sat Apr 10 19:45:09 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: PCMCIA Message-ID: <199904110045.UAA06259@crobin.home.org> Hi! This is possibly too new for this list, so please excuse me if I offend anyone... I was wondering if any of you might have a copy of PCMICA drivers, such as might have been shipped with a modem or other card? I'm in the process of resurrecting my NCR Safari, but the only drivers that came with it are a simple memory card driver/formatter. Thanks... <<>> From mbg at world.std.com Sat Apr 10 20:03:03 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: 8/E PSU resolution Message-ID: <199904110103.AA27788@world.std.com> >Just out of curiousity, which fuse is missing? I was rushed, so I didn't really notice the rating. It was the middle one on the cover latch side (left side of the case as you look at the front panel) >Another thing. I trust you have the little jumper plugs in the 3 pin >mate-n-lock sockets on the power supply? If not, the machine won't power >up. These sockets are _not_ the same as the ones on a PDP11 power >controller. You need to short the middle pin to one end pin on one socket >and the middle pin to the other end pin on the other socket. Aha... There is only one of those in (that I remember)... Which one is shorted which way (or is it sufficient to have one short one way and the other to short the other way?) Sorry, I haven't looked at the printset yet... that's the reason for the stupid question... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 10 20:14:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: 8/E PSU resolution In-Reply-To: <199904110103.AA27788@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Apr 10, 99 09:03:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1483 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990411/b16ea314/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Apr 10 20:23:05 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: PCMCIA Message-ID: <4cfbbf40.24415379@aol.com> In a message dated 99-04-10 20:46:42 EDT, you write: > This is possibly too new for this list, so please excuse me if I offend > anyone... > > I was wondering if any of you might have a copy of PCMICA drivers, such as > might have been shipped with a modem or other card? > > I'm in the process of resurrecting my NCR Safari, but the only drivers > that came with it are a simple memory card driver/formatter. > > Thanks... > <<>> some drivers are just point enablers which basically get the card working and that's it. it also depends on what type pc cards you want to use. or, you could try installing pcdos7. it has phoenix pc card drivers that can be installed. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Apr 10 20:29:35 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: new hamfest additions Message-ID: <2f157b9e.244154ff@aol.com> one good thing about being a hamfest vendor is that you get to see what's for sale the previous night and free food. so far, i bought an apple /// with profile. what's even better is that i got a bunch of documentation and system disks with it like business basic, device driver manual, apple access ///, apple writer ///, owner's guide, apple backup, utilities, profile drivers and demos. even got the owners manual and a copy of castle wolfenstein in original packaging. time to make backups of all this stuff. mostly pc items for sale, but did see a few portable PS/2s and some S100 bus cards. are they worth picking up? also bought 10 TI99 carts and the speech box earlier today. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Apr 10 20:36:51 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: source for foam filter material In-Reply-To: <370FEBD3.84B70113@mindspring.com> from bluoval at "Apr 10, 1999 08:24:51 pm" Message-ID: <199904110136.BAA24537@thorin.cs.umn.edu> I decided to try using the carbon pre-filter material for a honeywell hepa air cleaner unit. The air flow is definitely reduced, so i'll have to watch and see if the computer is overheating. The original filter material was so thin, it was very easy to see through it. If i could think of something thinner, or more pourous, that would be best i suppose. -Lawrence LeMay > > > Does anyone know where I might be able to buy some thin black foam filter > > material, to replace the stuiff that was used on my Teral computers? > > These systems have a large fan that draws air into the computer, and > > the intake air goes through this very thin filter, in order to capture > > large particles such as lint. > > > > After 22+ years, that foam is nothing more than dust. > > > > I would need something almost 5 inches wide, that i could then trim to > > the proper shape. > > From emu at ecubics.com Sat Apr 10 20:49:04 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: seagate st1280n Message-ID: <19990411014756.AAA15154@1Cust69.tnt22.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi Daniel, ---------- > From: Daniel T. Burrows > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: seagate st1280n > Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 6:18 PM > > Try http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/specs/st1480n.shtml > Dan thanks a lot, that was what i needed. (Haven't see that they are the same besides of the capacity ;-)) cheers, emanuel From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Apr 10 21:01:25 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) References: <199904102236.SAA34643@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <37100275.E9E6EEC8@idirect.com> >Bill Pechter wrote: > (One day, ask me about the DEC story of the customer who epoxied in the write > ring area on the 9 track tapes to make sure his operators couldn't put > them in to write enable and over-write a backup tape...) Jerome Fine replies: OK! I bite. This is "One day". But two questions: Was the backup already made? Or did the customer try and "anticipate" the problem by putting in the epoxy before the backup was done? OR, did the epoxy not harden enough so that the sensor (if I remember, they were just an extending rod which pushed their way into the grove if the ring was out) caught on the epoxy and the sensor was ripped out in the process which caused significant damage to the tape drive? Otherwise, the customer just replaced the ring with epoxy, which while rather stupid, maybe the customer thought the actual ring did something. But I am itching to hear!!!!!!!!!! From jpero at cgocable.net Sat Apr 10 21:17:56 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: Micropolis 1518 Jumper Settings In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990410204558.00e48a70@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <199904110213.WAA14088@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:46:00 -0500 To: jpero@cgocable.net From: Jeff Kaneko Subject: Micropolis 1518 Jumper Settings Hi Jeff and to cc follows: > > Attached is all of the information that I have; I haven't been able to try > this because I'm stuck without a capable ESDI controller. Thanks! But same old hat again, it's same thing you see on the blue planet's website. There are few ESDI controllers that can do 24MHZ and *MUST* able to do up to 4096 cylinders. Nice thing about all ESDI controllers for Peecees, LBA built right in for greater than 528MB! > Looks like you should set for 512 bytes/sector, 83 spt, *hard* sectored. I > wish I knew that Ultra 12f-24's were so damned rare . . . Really? What about it and why it's bit rare? And I really beg to anyone on this list to pool their experiences to "pull" up the ESDI performance because I'm getting subpar performance for a "high" end hd like 1538 with 71 sectors (1518 is 83 sectors) both hds should have screamed instead of plodded along. About 600KPS out of that 1538, yuk. I got over 800kps on that same controller with a Miniscribe 3180E on that paltry 36 sectors. Is there's a controller card that does much better than this Ultrastor 12F24?! Oh, I've one computer based on EISA. Oh, anyone knows of same HDAs that uses SCSI interface board in place of ESDI, I want to know what model it shares same HDA for each? 1518 and 1538. > > > Jeff Wizard From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Apr 10 21:12:31 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: Parting out PDP-8a Message-ID: <19990410.211233.77.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: I have discovered a PDP-8a in a scrapyard near my workplace. It has been outside for awhile; but if there are any salvable parts there, would anyone be interested? BTW-- How do I get the front panel off without breaking anything? Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From roblwill at usaor.net Sun Apr 11 00:16:32 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: GeoWorks -- Commodore/Apple/PC? Message-ID: <01be83da$76299b60$e88ea6d1@the-general> Hi! I Used to have a Commodore 128 that had GeoWorks on it (I think it was actually GEOS, or something like that). I also have a box and font/graphics set for the PC version or GeoWorks. I've also heard that there was a version of it for the Apple // series. Does anyone have a copy of the Apple version that they would want to sell (or copy)? I also have a font/image pack for the PC version, if anyone wants a copy (I'll have to check them to see if they're good or not first, though. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 10 21:30:09 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <199904102336.QAA29502@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::indexing simply wrapped the PC, but not in all cases. I thing indexed mode > ::addressing was a case where an index could cross a page boundary. The MOT > > Somewhat buggy on the NMOS (I don't know if the CMOS 6502s have this problem) > 6502s, which means basically all Commodore 8-bits except the 65; if you do > jmp ($00ff), the vector comes from $ff and $00, not $ff and $100! Nope, the CMOS version cleared this up, which is why some few older games crash on the Apple //c and enhanced //e. One game I know of specifically called Randamn used this indirect jump bug as part of its protection scheme to throw off would be crackers. I always thought I had a bad disk until I traced the code one day and found out what was going on. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Apr 10 21:34:09 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: Micropolis 1518 Jumper Settings Message-ID: <19990410.213410.77.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Sat, 10 Apr 1999 22:17:56 -0400 jpero@cgocable.net writes: >Thanks! But same old hat again, it's same thing you see on the >blue planet's website. Uh, okay. Micropolis being out of buisiness really makes things tough for owners of these drives. >> Looks like you should set for 512 bytes/sector, 83 spt, *hard* >> sectored. I wish I knew that Ultra 12f-24's were so damned rare . . . > >Really? What about it and why it's bit rare? Well, for one thing, Ultrastor is out of business, also. It doesn't look like they made too many of these 24MHz controllers (most of the ones I see offered for sale will not do 24MHz), and to make matters worse, individuals who *do* have them either won't sell, or want and arm and a leg for them. >And I really beg to anyone on this list to pool their experiences to >"pull" up the ESDI performance because I'm getting subpar >performance for a "high" end hd like 1538 with 71 sectors (1518 is >83 sectors) both hds should have screamed instead of plodded >along. About 600KPS out of that 1538, yuk. I got over 800kps on >that same controller with a Miniscribe 3180E on that paltry 36 >sectors. > >Is there's a controller card that does much better than this Ultrastor >12F24?! Oh, I've one computer based on EISA. Well, I know of only two other *solid* possibilities: The OMTI/SMS 8640, and the DTC 6282-24. ANother one is iffy: the WD 1009. I have gotten mixed reports on this one: SOme sources say it will do 24MHz no problemo. Some say no way Jose. I've been looking for all of these. Zip. Nada. (Unless I was willing to fork over $90 to a dealer for an 8640. >Oh, anyone knows of same HDAs that uses SCSI interface board >in place of ESDI, I want to know what model it shares same HDA >for each? 1518 and 1538. Uh, I know what you've got in mind, but you will not be able to swap the "interface" board to a different HDA. Reason is, when these are made, the board is 'married' to that HDA using jumper settings and stuff (the ones with glyptol dripped on them so you can't remove them by accident). Each one is different (it has something to do with the servo head, I think). Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Apr 10 22:00:29 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: GeoWorks -- Commodore/Apple/PC? In-Reply-To: <01be83da$76299b60$e88ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Apr 10, 99 10:16:32 pm Message-ID: <199904110300.UAA27798@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1574 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990410/703ff1a0/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 10 22:10:17 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:01 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout) In-Reply-To: <199904102236.SAA34643@pechter.dyndns.org> (message from Bill Pechter on Sat, 10 Apr 1999 18:36:51 -0400 (EDT)) References: <199904102236.SAA34643@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <19990411031017.2835.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bill wrote: > (One day, ask me about the DEC story of the customer who epoxied in the write > ring area on the 9 track tapes to make sure his operators couldn't put > them in to write enable and over-write a backup tape...) ROTFLMAO!!!! From jpero at cgocable.net Sat Apr 10 22:14:15 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: Micropolis 1518 Jumper Settings In-Reply-To: <19990410.213410.77.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <199904110309.XAA25037@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 21:34:09 -0500 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: jeff.kaneko@juno.com To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Micropolis 1518 Jumper Settings > ones I see offered for sale will not do 24MHz), and to make matters > worse, individuals who *do* have them either won't sell, or want > and arm and a leg for them. True.. keep searching and post wtb's on your local city newsgroups and suitable newsgroups like mine: kingston.forsale and .wanted your ISP should have this somewhere. > > Well, I know of only two other *solid* possibilities: The OMTI/SMS > 8640, and the DTC 6282-24. ANother one is iffy: the WD 1009. Thanks for choices...I will look up on these card specs at theref site. WD? Down w/ IT! I have a 15MHZ version. SLooow and broken featured. I have poor experiences with them > >Oh, anyone knows of same HDAs that uses SCSI interface board > >in place of ESDI, I want to know what model it shares same HDA > >for each? 1518 and 1538. > Huh uh, I don't mean different HDA's. I mean different logic boards that shared common HDA that has same capacity types. This reminds me of similar situation; I successfully recovered WD 540MB for data (WDAC2540 using logic board from a WDAC1270) > > Jeff Wizard From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Apr 10 22:13:11 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: GeoWorks -- Commodore/Apple/PC? Message-ID: In a message dated 99-04-10 22:26:30 EDT, you write: > Does anyone have a copy of the Apple version that they would want to sell > (or copy)? I also have a font/image pack for the PC version, if anyone > wants a copy (I'll have to check them to see if they're good or not first, > though. I've version 2.1 (?) on 3.5 disks that could be copied, although i've heard of possible copy protection issues. i presume copy ][+ 9.0 could do it. anyone know? From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sat Apr 10 23:04:54 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: PICK OS Message-ID: <199904110405.VAA10765@mxu2.u.washington.edu> ---------- > From: Max Eskin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: PICK OS > Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 6:30 > > I saw an interesting book at the library today about something called PICK > OS. I didn't get to look through the entire book, but I read enough to see > that it refers to directories as dictionaries. IIRC, it is a dedicated O/S for use with a database system. Sort of a bootable database program for want of a better description. I (briefly) owned a Fujitsu computer that had PICK installed, it came out of a public library and was a very solid box, that weighed a LOT. (It had a ups built into it!) Fujitsu bought it off me! True! They were still supporting some in service and wanted some parts, offered me twice what I paid for it. (I rang them to get some info on the machine and they called back an hour later with a cash offer.) Never had more than a cursory look at the O/S, but I gather it's quite good at what it does, but it doesn't do much else. Multi terminal time share system. TV station I used to work for also had a PC based Pick System, the logging program (used to create the "logs" actually a plan of the order and length of programs that re to be put to air) ran on that and nothing else it seems... >It seems to take a novel approach, That's a fair description. It seems to be dedicated to just one task. I think there are other things it can do, but it's fairly limited... That's the limit of my knowledge, others on the list will doubtless know far more... Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Apr 10 23:17:16 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: Tutti 0.2a Tomy Tutor emulator relased Message-ID: <199904110417.VAA10692@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 755 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990410/82c36d8e/attachment.ksh From lwlyon at ozemail.com.au Sun Apr 11 13:17:42 1999 From: lwlyon at ozemail.com.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: PICK OS References: Message-ID: <3710E744.3A277D2B@ozemail.com.au> Max Eskin wrote: > I saw an interesting book at the library today about something called PICK > OS. I didn't get to look through the entire book, but I read enough to see > that it refers to directories as dictionaries. It seems to take a novel > approach, but I know nothing about it. Haven't even heard of it. Does > anyone here know more? Does anyone here have the PC version (mentioned in > the book)? > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) I don't know a great deal about it, however, many doctors in NSW use it as their OS of choice, apparently has built in networking & a large amount of medical software written for it. Sorry I don't know more. cheers, Lance From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Apr 10 23:24:33 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: Micropolis 1518 Jumper Settings References: <199904110213.WAA14088@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <37102401.15C5763D@idirect.com> >jpero@cgocable.net wrote: > Date sent: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:46:00 -0500 > To: jpero@cgocable.net > From: Jeff Kaneko > Subject: Micropolis 1518 Jumper Settings > > Hi Jeff and to cc follows: > > > > > Attached is all of the information that I have; I haven't been able to try > > this because I'm stuck without a capable ESDI controller. > > Thanks! But same old hat again, it's same thing you see on the > blue planet's website. > > There are few ESDI controllers that can do 24MHZ and *MUST* > able to do up to 4096 cylinders. Nice thing about all ESDI > controllers for Peecees, LBA built right in for greater than 528MB! > > > Looks like you should set for 512 bytes/sector, 83 spt, *hard* sectored. I > > wish I knew that Ultra 12f-24's were so damned rare . . . > > Really? What about it and why it's bit rare? Jerome Fine replies: I am also using the 12F24 on my PC. I have an Hitachi DK516-15 which I must run in compatibility mode. But otherwise, it seems great. > And I really beg to anyone on this list to pool their experiences to > "pull" up the ESDI performance because I'm getting subpar > performance for a "high" end hd like 1538 with 71 sectors (1518 is > 83 sectors) both hds should have screamed instead of plodded > along. About 600KPS out of that 1538, yuk. I got over 800kps on > that same controller with a Miniscribe 3180E on that paltry 36 > sectors. I also have problems with using drives with a large number of sectors/track. On the PDP-11, I have a Sigma RQD11-EC which runs the Maxtor drives very well, but when I get to the Hitachi drives with so many sectors, I have a big problem when there are more than 7 quad slots in the backplane. It is a BA123 and I have had to cut out the boards I don't normally use. Any ideas? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 10 23:36:49 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <003801be83d4$ea5cac80$0100c0a8@fuj03> referring to your questions regarding the execution time > >Execution time for an 8E (1973) would have been under 8uS if both instuction >used indirect addressing. As written it would be 7.6uS. Now the 6502 at >2mhz would have done it in what? > I believe (guessing because I've learned memory doesn't serve as it once did) The load is two clock ticks and the indirect, indexed jump is five, so that's 3.5 microseconds, give or take a tick. it's less at 4 MHz, which is what the 65C02C is rated, though it readily will run at 4.9152 (24.576 MHz/5) over a wide temperature and voltage range provided the clock is phased correctly. the divice-by five yields a 40/60 h/l which must be inverted to give a little longer phase-2 than phase-1. I've imbedded a few comments in the text below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 5:58 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) > >The 8051 is very ugly in other places. It has a sufficiently varied instruction set that you don't really have to use what you don't like. Perhaps you can take comfort in the fact that it's been around since the early '80's and is still the most popular architecture out there. What's more, it's not nearly as ugly as the PIC architecture. >Then there are the NEC uPD 78xx series that are similar in register layout >to z80 but code wise, not close. They have a table lookup instructions for >that exact task. They are targetted as rom based controllers and code >efficientcy is a requirement but often controller don't need to preocess >the kinds of things a PC (or other general purpose computer) would. > >The z280 has a load address inscrtuction that makes the setup for an indexed >jump easier. > >The PDP-11 did it on one instuction but it has some very powerful addressing >modes. Indirection and indexing are natural to that part. > >However in CPUs righer in register than the 6502, the task would be done >far differently. It's a different programming style and it does impact >code structure. For example a set of operations that can be done requiring >multiple (say a dozen) 16bit parameters to be passed are easily done on >even 8080 but the 6502 has to do that as indexed list in ram and pass >the pointer to the list if you want to be efficient. It's possible to >structure a problem such that any cpu looks good or bad. Generally an >application is far more than a trivial few instructions. > >Look at the PDP-8 which is both register poor and has an instruction set >that small is far from adaquate to describe. Yet it performs tasks >efficiently in small amounts of core that some cpus can't. > >The 6809 example would be in PDP-8... > > / enter here with uart data > DCA pindex / store index value at pindex > JMP I,INDEX / indirect jump via index (could have been a JMS, jump > / subroutine!) > >Execution time for an 8E (1973) would have been under 8uS if both instuction >used indirect addressing. As written it would be 7.6uS. Now the 6502 at >2mhz would have done it in what? > >< They (DEC) did make the uVax-II as a chipset for interfacing to their > >?????? UvaxII was not for interfacing the BI, that was a dedicated chipset. >The uVAXII was a single chip (extended FPU and DMA were companions). UvaxII >was only remotely related to BI bus. The statment doesn't parse. > > >the 6809 was a bridge part while waiting for the 68K. Still it was a good >part. I found them both (6809 and 68K) to be a disappointment. I guess there was too much wait, and it wouldn't have mattered what they put out. > >Nearly as good as the PDP-11. FYI both the 6809 and the 68k had heavy >PDP-11 and vax influences. > > >Allison > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 10 23:58:21 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: Parting out PDP-8a In-Reply-To: <19990410.211233.77.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990410215354.00921860@mcmanis.com> You'll find some screws on the back side of the operators panel. This was connected by two ribbon cables to the multifunction i/o panel. If the boards have been inside the chassis they may very well still work. --Chuck At 09:12 PM 4/10/99 -0500, you wrote: >Guys: > >I have discovered a PDP-8a in a scrapyard near my workplace. >It has been outside for awhile; but if there are any salvable >parts there, would anyone be interested? > >BTW-- How do I get the front panel off without breaking >anything? > > >Jeff >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 10 23:52:47 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <004901be83d7$3784a600$0100c0a8@fuj03> You've got two tracks mixed up, I think. True, the Apple II was quite plentiful in 80, but not in businesses the way it was in 82-83. I even had several of them with people to man them as well. I hated the Apple but loved the 6502. In the meantime, I noted that the RS Model 1 was a piece of junk, and, in fact, so much of one that I never bought one, even for experimentation, and I had nearly every other sort of box around the shop. The Model 3 design my employer had contracted to him was paid for in late '81. I saw several of them in friends' houses, none of whom had bought them new, by the way, so they'd been on the market for a time in '82-83. We had a really terrible blizzard on Christmas of '82 here, and I saw one in a neighbor's house then. It was an early version but it was a model 3. I'm aware there were plenty of Apples around since the one which was wheeled in to the weekly 6502 Users' Group meeting by the chief guru was not even attracting a second glance. A lot happened in the early part of '81, i.e. Apple prices dropped for the first time, in an effort to retain market share from the now increasingly available though not yet particularly attractive, either as a computer or as a budget item. There's some more imbedded commentary below, if you're interested. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 5:59 PM Subject: Re: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism > >No. By then the apple and trs80 were common as house flies. In fact in >1980 we used Apples and TRS80s running a similar program for forcasting >as they were in wide use around the shop. They were both in the market >in terms of volumes nearing a 500k system each if not more by 1980. The model 1 was quite common, but the model 1 was in too many pieces to be of much interest to most folks. What's more, it was pretty weak-kneed. The model 3 held out hope, though that was later dashed when the model 3 turned out to be not much better. >the PC wasn't an impact until 82 maybe 83. Memories and events seem to >get compressed or expanded. I's even say the PC was not a serious >contender till mid 83. The initial impact of the PC was to get people to stop buying non-PC's for their businesses. They were extremely costly at first, and didn't have a few serious problems worked out. People had to mortgage their houses to buy one (a basic PC on the gray-market cost nearly $2k). >Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 10 23:54:33 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: PCMCIA Message-ID: <004e01be83d7$646fac00$0100c0a8@fuj03> There are a couple of newsgroups dedicated to PCMCIA which might be of some help. Take a look! Ask! Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Ruschmeyer To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 6:52 PM Subject: PCMCIA >Hi! > >This is possibly too new for this list, so please excuse me if I offend >anyone... > >I was wondering if any of you might have a copy of PCMICA drivers, such as >might have been shipped with a modem or other card? > >I'm in the process of resurrecting my NCR Safari, but the only drivers >that came with it are a simple memory card driver/formatter. > >Thanks... ><<>> From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 10 23:59:23 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: Micropolis 1518 Jumper Settings Message-ID: <005501be83d8$1185ab60$0100c0a8@fuj03> There's a pretty slick controller for ISA by Lark Associates which is capable of lying to the PC in a way which actually convinces it you have two physical drives. This makes using such large beasts much easier. I've not been able to get good mileage out of my Miniscribe 9760 or my Maxtor 8760 since it ( the controller ) gave up the ghost. My WD controllers won't help with making it old-bios-compatible. Dick -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgocable.net To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 8:20 PM Subject: Re: Micropolis 1518 Jumper Settings >Date sent: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:46:00 -0500 >To: jpero@cgocable.net >From: Jeff Kaneko >Subject: Micropolis 1518 Jumper Settings > >Hi Jeff and to cc follows: > >> >> Attached is all of the information that I have; I haven't been able to try >> this because I'm stuck without a capable ESDI controller. > >Thanks! But same old hat again, it's same thing you see on the >blue planet's website. > >There are few ESDI controllers that can do 24MHZ and *MUST* >able to do up to 4096 cylinders. Nice thing about all ESDI >controllers for Peecees, LBA built right in for greater than 528MB! > >> Looks like you should set for 512 bytes/sector, 83 spt, *hard* sectored. I >> wish I knew that Ultra 12f-24's were so damned rare . . . > >Really? What about it and why it's bit rare? > >And I really beg to anyone on this list to pool their experiences to >"pull" up the ESDI performance because I'm getting subpar >performance for a "high" end hd like 1538 with 71 sectors (1518 is >83 sectors) both hds should have screamed instead of plodded >along. About 600KPS out of that 1538, yuk. I got over 800kps on >that same controller with a Miniscribe 3180E on that paltry 36 >sectors. > >Is there's a controller card that does much better than this Ultrastor >12F24?! Oh, I've one computer based on EISA. > >Oh, anyone knows of same HDAs that uses SCSI interface board >in place of ESDI, I want to know what model it shares same HDA >for each? 1518 and 1538. > >> >> >> Jeff > >Wizard From donm at cts.com Sun Apr 11 00:43:08 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: Micropolis 1518 and 1538, full manual for both wanted. In-Reply-To: <199904102347.TAA22608@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Apr 1999 jpero@cgocable.net wrote: ________O/_______ O\ > When using ESDI HD with controller for first time, has to LLF it first > then fdisk and format comes next. > True for different controllers if changed. Yes, I know that. I use the Ultrastor also, but with Maxtor drives. > BTW; my brain is sleepy, I forgot to say Micropolis. I recognized the model numbers. > I need jumpers settings not just for drive select and sector size > selections. Sorry, the amount of Micropolis data that I have is very minimal and does not include those drives. - don > > > Details: > > > > > > 1538 is .9 GB formatted, part #XS0030-01-7E > > > > > > UK 1518 is 1.3 GB formatted, part #TS0021-01-1 > > > > > > NOTE: tried .go2net.com search, theref and blue planet with little > > > luck. > > Wizard > From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Apr 10 21:22:07 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <199904102351.AA21354@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199904110620.CAA26124@smtp.interlog.com> On 10 Apr 99 at 19:51, Allison J Parent wrote: > > No. By then the apple and trs80 were common as house flies. In fact in > 1980 we used Apples and TRS80s running a similar program for forcasting > as they were in wide use around the shop. They were both in the market > in terms of volumes nearing a 500k system each if not more by 1980. > > the PC wasn't an impact until 82 maybe 83. Memories and events seem to > get compressed or expanded. I's even say the PC was not a serious > contender till mid 83. > > Allison > I've got issue 2, Vol 1 of PC World dated Mar 83 .Compaqs Portable Computer was reviewed in this issue, and the reviewer mentions that IBM had introduced the PC 1 1/2 years earlier. There was also an announcement of the new IBM Color display. the 5153 An interesting note was that the european model was configured with 64 k unlike the original 16k US model. They also had the choice of SS or DS drives. That would explain the dearth of 16k machines in Europe. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From bluoval at mindspring.com Sun Apr 11 01:47:09 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-8 again Message-ID: <3710456D.CE9EA2CC@mindspring.com> It was a 16 button keypad, with numbers 1-9, decimal point, and math operators and two others I couldn't make out. Could someone tell me what these keys were? From bluoval at mindspring.com Sun Apr 11 01:49:02 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-8 again References: <3710456D.CE9EA2CC@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <371045DE.20282AB8@mindspring.com> Oops, I ment 0-9. What was that last button? bluoval wrote: > It was a 16 button keypad, with numbers 1-9, decimal point, and math > operators and two others I couldn't make out. Could someone tell me > what these keys were? From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Apr 11 04:14:18 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: PICK OS In-Reply-To: <3710E744.3A277D2B@ozemail.com.au> References: Message-ID: <199904110914.TAA02808@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 14:17 11/04/99 -0400, Lance Lyon wrote: > I don't know a great deal about it, however, many doctors in NSW use it as >their OS of choice, apparently has built in networking & a large amount of >medical software written for it. Pick is also used as the environment for one of the more popular library on-line catalog systems known as URICA. We've just replaced ours with III running on Digital Unix (bit of a culture shock for the librarians :-). Pick is still alive and kicking (see www.pick.com for more details than you probably need to know...). BTW, Pick was designed/developed (and as far as I know originally written by) Dick Pick - hence the name. It has some interesting documentation, the one I liked most was "Introduction to Reality" which was housed in my computer room for quite a while (although I wasn't game to find out what reality was :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sun Apr 11 05:40:48 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: PICK OS Message-ID: <001e01be8407$c34d1980$103cc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Max Eskin wrote: >I saw an interesting book at the library today about something called PICK >OS. I didn't get to look through the entire book, but I read enough to see >that it refers to directories as dictionaries. It seems to take a novel >approach, but I know nothing about it. Haven't even heard of it. Does >anyone here know more? Does anyone here have the PC version (mentioned in >the book)? > >--Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > I have never played with PICK, but I have played with Prime "Information" which is sometimes described as a PICK like operating system. I have a PC version somewhere but in that form it is not a true OS. It is started as a DOS application. As someone else has said, not much use except for multi-user database applications. The PC version is only a toy. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Apr 11 06:31:21 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: PICK OS In-Reply-To: <3710E744.3A277D2B@ozemail.com.au> from Lance Lyon at "Apr 11, 1999 2:17:42 pm" Message-ID: <199904111131.HAA36163@pechter.dyndns.org> > > > Max Eskin wrote: > > > I saw an interesting book at the library today about something called PICK > > OS. I didn't get to look through the entire book, but I read enough to see > > that it refers to directories as dictionaries. It seems to take a novel > > approach, but I know nothing about it. Haven't even heard of it. Does > > anyone here know more? Does anyone here have the PC version (mentioned in > > the book)? > > > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > > I don't know a great deal about it, however, many doctors in NSW use it as > their OS of choice, apparently has built in networking & a large amount of > medical software written for it. > > Sorry I don't know more. > > cheers, > Lance > > > PICK was used on a lot of turnkey systems for the automotive, insurance and medical industries. It's main os competitor for medical software was probably Mumps also known as M. It ran on many of the 16 bit minicomputers including the DEC PDP11 and Honeywell mini's. During the '80's it began being hosted under Unix instead of running directly on the metal like it did on the lesser powered 16 bit machines. It (like Mumps) combined database features and the OS and a common development language in one package. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 11 08:16:18 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <199904111316.AA27845@world.std.com> < I've got issue 2, Vol 1 of PC World dated Mar 83 .Compaqs Portable Comput from "Jerome Fine" at Apr 10, 99 10:01:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 975 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990411/e096d245/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 11 08:21:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: Parting out PDP-8a In-Reply-To: <19990410.211233.77.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at Apr 10, 99 09:12:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 257 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990411/75a031a0/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Sun Apr 11 10:06:39 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: Chicago trs-80s References: Message-ID: <3710BA7F.544A8760@cnct.com> Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > I know the later drives seemed much more compact, about the size of a > floppy drive. Those early ones were enormous though. I've never > opened > one up though, so I wasn't sure what it contained. I suspected some sort > of 8 inch drive. There are three form factors for external Tandy hard drive cases. The earliest were the 8.4 Mb, it was huge with an 8" Shugart unit inside. These drives were not compatible with any other (later) Tandy drives or controllers, nor could their controller be used with any other drives. The most common line are in a somewhat smaller (but still quite large) case, containing a full-height 5.25" unit. THese came in sizes of 5, 12, 15, 35 and 70 Mb. Any primary drive in this series can work with up to three secondaries of whatever capacity. These were the drives where the card inside the Model 2/12/16/6000 was essentially an adapter to give the machine an expansion bus identical to that of the Model 3/4, these same drives connected to those machines with a cable straight through from the edge connector in the 3/4 to the header connector on the primary drive case. The 6000HD or other machine with the internal HD could connect to only one secondary drive. About the time I left Tandy, they came out with a smaller external case, primarily for the Tandy 1000, there were adapters available to connect them to the Model 3/4 and the Tandy 2000. I don't know the nature of the adapters, I never used one. They held a half-height 5.25 unit. I recall they were originally 10 Mb. Oh yeah, the CoCo HD adapter RomPak also connected to the second series. I never got one, the HD controllers on my CoCo 3s are not Tandy issue. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From jrice at texoma.net Sun Apr 11 09:06:04 1999 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: Speaking of Tandy & TRS-80 (was: Re: What if,... early PCs References: Message-ID: <3710AC4C.3951FEE3@texoma.net> It's the same Allied, they just sell basic components now, but have a great selection. They have a large warehouse in Ft Worth with a will call counter. John Rollins wrote: > > >There was another one I haven't seen in a couple of decades, called Allied. > >I once worked for a subsidiary of another Allied Electronics, so they must > >have been gone by then. > > The old Allied combined with RatShack... Take a look at some of the ads > before they disappeared and it says "Allied Radio Shack", and is now just > plain old Radio Shack... There is another Allied around(I have an older > catalog around here somewhere), but it's more for commercial users, > although I suppose they don't mind hobbyists. They have sales offices just > about everywhere, there's one here in Portland, OR... But I don't remember > what the web URL is. > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | > | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | > | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | > | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | > -------------------------------------------------------------- -- ICQ 2286850 Home Page http://home.texoma.net/~jrice Classic Comp Page at http://home.texoma.net/~jrice/classiccomp.html Robotics Page at ttp://home.texoma.net/~jrice/hobbies.html All pages under construction! From cbajpai at mediaone.net Sun Apr 11 09:03:47 1999 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: PCMCIA In-Reply-To: <004e01be83d7$646fac00$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <000001be8424$1e8d0500$0100a8c0@chandrab.ne.mediaone.net> I used to work for SystemSoft that made the Card and Socket Services for that machine. If I remember correctly it had a custom Card & Socket Services that was specific for that machine. You might get it to work if you got a generic Intel 365 (I think that it the controller) and played around with the IRQ's...worst case if you get it wrong you'll get no hot insertion. Try calling SystemSoft (508-651-0088) and ask to buy CardSoft for DOS. Try Phoenix Technologies, they might have something. -Chandra From jrice at texoma.net Sun Apr 11 09:08:53 1999 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: source for foam filter material References: <199904102026.UAA24193@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3710ACF5.A9A5743D@texoma.net> Go to an air conditioning supply wholesalers or appliance parts dealer and buy a universal window air conditioner filter kit. It is a black open cell foam sheet about 1/8 to 1/4 inch thick that is cut to shape for old a/c units that the oem filter is not readly available. costs about 6 to 8 dollars. Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > Does anyone know where I might be able to buy some thin black foam filter > material, to replace the stuiff that was used on my Teral computers? > These systems have a large fan that draws air into the computer, and > the intake air goes through this very thin filter, in order to capture > large particles such as lint. > > After 22+ years, that foam is nothing more than dust. > > I would need something almost 5 inches wide, that i could then trim to > the proper shape. > > -Lawrence LeMay -- ICQ 2286850 Home Page http://home.texoma.net/~jrice Classic Comp Page at http://home.texoma.net/~jrice/classiccomp.html Robotics Page at ttp://home.texoma.net/~jrice/hobbies.html All pages under construction! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 11 09:28:28 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) "Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)" (Apr 11, 9:16) References: <199904111316.AA27845@world.std.com> Message-ID: <9904111528.ZM24146@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 11, 9:16, Allison J Parent wrote: > The point was apparently missed. Of course I can take a cmos z80 and blow > that out of the water using a 6 or 8 mhz clock. But because of the way the phases are used, a 2MHz 6502/65C02 is running at roughly the same rate (for comparable operations) as a 4MHz Z80. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 11 10:00:55 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <004701be842c$2ba1bd00$0100c0a8@fuj03> Please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 7:24 AM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) > >The point was apparently missed. Of course I can take a cmos z80 and blow >that out of the water using a 6 or 8 mhz clock. Heck using a 1989 version >of the z80, the Z280 at 12.5mhz I can get the execution time way down. In >the time frame before 1982 (as a marker) there werent any 4mhz 650c02s and >there were 4mhz z80s and pdp-8s were still produced. In that context the >the example represent programming style rather that absolute speed as they >didn't vary that much over all to represent a great diffferece unless you >needed a characteristic that was specific to a given CPU. No, the point wasn't missed. I remember what was going on back then (1979-1984) because it was at a critical juncture in the course of my life. In 1979, my "favorite" CPU was the 6502, the fastest MOS-Technology-comptible version of which was the 4 MHz NMOS part from SYNERTEK. I was VERY involved in making things run faster than most folks thought they could/should at that time and also had occasion to attempt comparison and contrast on the basis of a number of parameters, including performance. In '79, ZILOG and MOSTEK put out the 6-MHz "B"-series of their Z-80, which was enjoying almost universal acceptance as the most widely applicable and easiest-to-use microprocessor available. Most of the popular statements about it were pretty much on the money. Of course, the evolution of the 64K DRAM made its refresh counter more or less useless, but the impact of that wasn't to be felt for a couple of years yet, as commercial production of the 3-voltage 16K DRAMS was just getting into full swing. >I'm not slamming the 6502 or it heirs as it's also a very popular embedded >CPU still. For that fact so are the Z8 and Z80 heirs. Just from that it's >possible to conclude they all had desirable enough characteristics to keep >them in the running. I agree with you there. The Zilog boys had the CP/M crowd to maintain the low-end of their development system market, so nobody could complain it was too expensive to develop. The MOS-Technology folks had merely to point at the Apple to accomplish the same thing. Meanwhile, Motorola was making a BIG mistake, abandoning the amateur and "small" users. >As a CPU the 8051 is ok, I use it. As a controller it's without question >a popular part still. But as a general purpose cpu, it's a really bad >C or Pascal compiler host/target. Since the evolution of the now-popular 'C' and PASCAL compilers for the 8051-core micro's, I believe the popularity of this 25-year-old model has actually increased. The HLL's and the development of high-speed versions of this processor family by DALLAS and Philips, among others have definitely extended the life of this family. The simple migration path to "bigger" parts of more or less the same architecture, e.g. '251, has also made many a '51-core user. I believe that it's as a consequence of that, that there are now compilers for several truly "ugly" architectures, e.g. the PIC/SCENIX class of processors. There are also VHDL and VERILOG cores for several of the older architectures, e.g. 650x, available for those who prefer to "roll-their-own" which are also, though less well, supported with compilers and other tools. Again, Motorola seems to have been left behind at least with their smaller MCU's. I guess that's because of their reputation for spurning applications which consume fewer than 100K parts per week. > >Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 11 10:14:30 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <004a01be842d$ffdb27e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Once again, I've concluded it's more efficient to embed my comments in your quoted message. Have a look below, please. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 7:25 AM Subject: Re: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism > >OK, maybe where you were that was true. However despite the TRS80s >shortfalls (most corrected with mods or outside hardware) I knew of >businesses using them, and I may add same for the apple II. > > >My slant was the M1 was close but people wanted something more "one box". >The M3 was never more than a blip on the screen because when it hit the >streets there were plenty more choices and all of them deemed (if only >subjectively) better. The principal complaint I heard about the M1 was the principal complaint about the M3. It was a paper tiger until you opened the box and added a bunch of stuff/mods. The same, to lesser extent, perhaps, could be said for the Apple. The Apple was made easy-to-open. The RS boxes were not. >In the business worlds in NY and eastern PA S100 crates were the rule as >most were seen as the business strength machines and the apple/trs80 >as toys. This was by people that didn't care what cpu only that it ran! > > >Not really. If you were invested in apple then PC was a non-player as >nothing was compatable and you lost your investement going over. For the >z80 crowd (TRS and S100 crates) that was slightly less a concern but >PCs needed to get up to speed with applications first. Keep in mind when >the PC was introduced the only 8086 stuff out there was ISIS based >and mostly as development tools. It was the spread sheets and graphic >programs that caused the great sucking sound of people going PC but, that >would take more time than your indicating. When I saw my first PC in a commercial environment, it was running CP/M-86 because that had the software the business owner was using previously on his Z-80. I often wondered what motivated him to switch. I also saw a couple of people's Apple-II running CP/M-86, and was awed by the fact they'd run an OS that was slower than the previous and better-endowed (with software) CP/M-80 in the same basic environment. >Yes, I remember getting a bonus check becuase of the PC in 82. IT wasn't >for implementing as a useful system it was for FIXing the design. Seems >one of the design bugs was it would only run intel chipsets. IBM really performed only one major service to the microcomputer world: They lent it its own trade name, which was its legitimacy. Having done that, the behemoth was overrun by smaller, more adept innovators. >As to the cost of a PC... equipped as a useful machine that could run >production it was far from $2k! > >Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 11 11:20:09 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <005901be8437$5f09d460$0100c0a8@fuj03> I have to disagree with your comparison of the 2 MHz 6502 with a 4 MHz Z-80A. My thought here is that the 4MHz Z-80 used in the conventional way, had a memory cycle of 750 nanoseconds (3 clock ticks), while the 6502, at whatever rate, again, used in the conventional way, had a memory cycle of one clock tick. Now, some instructions involve several memory cycles, but that was true of both processor families. What I often cursed, was that the textbook application of the 650x core left memory available (idle) half the time. That was a blessing up to a point (2.5 MHz to be exact) because it allowed for DRAM "RAS-precharge." The Apple and others like it proved that at around 1 MHz, the 6502's memory could be used for an entirely separate purpose, e.g. video refresh. At one point in time, I went to some lengths to demonstrate the relative performance capability, based on common applications, when the processors were placed in an environment in which the primary constraint on the processor's performance, hardware-wise, was the memory bandwidth. It turned out to be a rather difficult comparison, because of the lengths to which one had to go in order to utilize the memory bandwidth most effectively. The Z-80's most difficult aspect was that its memory cycles were of different lengths. The 6502 could be interfaced quite easily by using an asymmetrical clock, with a short Phase-1 (the period during which addresses and control signals change) and a relatively long Phase-2, which is the cycle when I/O to off-chip system-resources take place. This was straightforward until the system design was adjusted for DRAMs, which were the most common problem of that time. Both processors had problems with DRAM usage. The 6502, when its clock was tweaked to make DRAM access most time-efficient required, absolutely, that a cycle-stealing arrangement was used in order to support refresh. This meant extra hardware. However, the otherwise minimalist Z-80, which once was touted as supporting DRAMs by generating a refresh cycle from time to time, required extra hardware to modify its clock as well in order to allow for a long enough M1 cycle, and to allow enough time for the refresh to occur during its allocated window. This meant even more hardware. It turned out that all the things which the processors' designers had done in order to make the two chips "efficient" became a problem when I tried to implement each one in a way which was tailored to attain the most effective utilization from what was then the most costly system resource, the main memory. In any case, what I determined was that the Z-80, in spite of its complicated hardware requirement, was potentially the faster processor. This was based on a comparison of the two in what I then considered an application tailored to the most effective use of memory bandwidth. I also quickly concluded that the 6502 would outperform it in an application where memory demand was small enough to allow the use of SRAMS, because if the fastest Z-80 available at the time (1981) was handed memories fast enough to operate it at full speed with no wait-states, i.e. minimal hardware, the M1 cycle was still so short as to use the normal Phase-1 time of a 4 MHz 6502, the memory cycle of which was a single clock tick as opposed to the Z-80's three. I believe there are entirely too many subjective, architecture-related, factors to allow an absolute comparison/contrast of the two processors. Being mostly a hardware-oriented type, I find the analysis adequate to warrant the second conclusion above, though I've never been entirely satisfied with the comparison I made based on their relative speed in the execution of a BASIC program. The BASIC interpreters were different, and the programs had to be "fiddled-with" in order to make them both run. The difference was not overwhelming, so I've never been entirely comfortable with the concusion. In my "gut" I still believe the 4 MHz Z-80 is about comparable to a 1.5 MHz 6502. Back in 1980, the Z-80 was definitely the wisest choice if you had to settle on a single processor for carrying out useful business tasks, because the Z-80 could run CP/M which had LOTS of such "useful" programs, thoroughly debugged, most of which were entirely suitable for commercial use, and there were significantly fewer useful-work programs for the 6502, which was more popular in graphics-oriented systems because it could share its memory and because its instruction set was apparently better suited for moving icons around in a display memory as most game programs required. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 8:35 AM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) >On Apr 11, 9:16, Allison J Parent wrote: > >> The point was apparently missed. Of course I can take a cmos z80 and >blow >> that out of the water using a 6 or 8 mhz clock. > >But because of the way the phases are used, a 2MHz 6502/65C02 is running at >roughly the same rate (for comparable operations) as a 4MHz Z80. > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Apr 11 11:34:05 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: source for foam filter material In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990411122556.00aab1c0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:25 AM 4/11/99 +0100, Tony Duell said something like: >> So if the purpose of the foam was to cpature the dust, what captured the >> foam? (: > >The rest of the machine? No. The flaming PSU resistors and active devices catch the rest as a result of the fan being jammed and not cooling stuff :-) Seriously, I've seen the result of that happening on some sort of transmitter or test gear (I can't quite recall exactly from 20+ years ago.) A gob of dust and paper chad which collected on a heat sink adjacent to the PSU pass transistor after the cooling fan died a natural death (sleeve bearings siezed) went to flames :( > >-tony Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 11 11:48:28 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)" (Apr 11, 10:20) References: <005901be8437$5f09d460$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <9904111748.ZM24332@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 11, 10:20, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51 > I have to disagree with your comparison of the 2 MHz 6502 with a 4 MHz > Z-80A. My thought here is that the 4MHz Z-80 used in the conventional way, > had a memory cycle of 750 nanoseconds (3 clock ticks), while the 6502, at > whatever rate, again, used in the conventional way, had a memory cycle of > one clock tick. Now, some instructions involve several memory cycles, but > that was true of both processor families. What I often cursed, was that the > textbook application of the 650x core left memory available (idle) half the > time. That was a blessing up to a point (2.5 MHz to be exact) because it > allowed for DRAM "RAS-precharge." The Apple and others like it proved that > at around 1 MHz, the 6502's memory could be used for an entirely separate > purpose, e.g. video refresh. I wasn't talking about precisely 2MHz vs 4MHz, just a ballpark figure (as opposed to "about the same" or "about ten times" clock speeds). So, given the rest of your message, I think we're in broad agreement. BTW, BBC Micros have a 2MHz clock on the 6502, and interleaved video and processor access quite happily in 1980. The video took care of the refresh requirement. > I believe there are entirely too many subjective, architecture-related, > factors to allow an absolute comparison/contrast of the two processors. Agreed :-) That's why lies, damned lies, and benchmarks are so much fun :-) > In my "gut" I still believe the 4 MHz Z-80 is about > comparable to a 1.5 MHz 6502. Well, that's not very far from what I wrote, is it? I was just pointing out that although Allison seemed to imply that a 6 or 8MHz Z80 was much faster than a 4MHz(? I haven't got the original message any more) 6502, I believe that to be far from the case. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 11 12:01:28 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <004901be83d7$3784a600$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > A lot happened in the early part of '81, i.e. VERY TRUE. Those were busy days. My "old-timer's" may make me forgetful of many things, but I clearly remember the start of the PC. > > The model 1 was quite common, but the model 1 was in too many pieces to be > of much interest to most folks. What's more, it was pretty weak-kneed. The > model 3 held out hope, though that was later dashed when the model 3 turned > out to be not much better. Yeah, I can agree. I had bolted the CPU and EI of one of my Model I's to a piece of plywood. The one piece model 3 had some appeal, particularly if you bolted HANDLES onto the case, even if it wasn't much more than better packaging of the 1. BTW, the model 1 is well remembered as starting at $599 with 4K, monitor, and cassette. But virtually nobody knew that it was also available for $399 without the monitor and cassette. I struggled long and hard with that decision, until one of the RS store managers agreed to be willing to special order a "replacement" monitor for me for $200 if I were to be unsuccessful in interfacing one of my CCTV monitors. Fortunately (since I didn't/don't) have Allison's technical expertise, it turned out to need nothing more than cabling. > >the PC wasn't an impact until 82 maybe 83. Memories and events seem to > >get compressed or expanded. I's even say the PC was not a serious > >contender till mid 83. It hadn't ACHIEVED its contender status, but there were a FEW of us who decided eqarly on that it represented the end of the way things were. OT_ Roseanne Barr: "...first day of the rest of your life. Who knew it would be such a long bad day?" > The initial impact of the PC was to get people to stop buying non-PC's for > their businesses. For some. For some others, the existence of the PC "legitimized the concept" of "using one of those toys" in business. Prior to that, people had laughed at the database system that I had set up for an auto repair shop on a TRS-80 model 1. The PC, and satisfactory results, made it a locally popular system. > They were extremely costly at first, and didn't have a > few serious problems worked out. People had to mortgage their houses to buy > one (a basic PC on the gray-market cost nearly $2k). I don't know when the gray-market started in your area. Around here, the base PC was $1361 from IBM or from their "OFFICIAL" authorized Computerland distributors. But there was close to a six month backlog, and the sales people were NOT enthusiastic about people buying base machines! It took me from 8/11/1981 until February 1982 to get one. (That was for 16K (sockets for another 48K) MB, case, PS, keyboard, BASIC manual, and "Guide to Operations". CGA board at ~$300 was the cheapest video, since it had composite video for aftermarket (Apple :-?) monitors; whereas nobody but IBM yet had monitors readily available compatible with MDP. The FDC was anothr ~$300. Serial, parallel, PC-DOS, MASM, and the "Technical Reference Manual" were the only other things that you had to go to IBM for. By middle '82?, multifunction cards were becoming available. (And an ECC memory card! from Boulder Creek Systems) BTW, MOST of us thought that CP/M-86 would push PC-DOS out ("as soon as it comes out")! CP/M-86 was significantly delayed. By the time that it showed up, and the higher price for it than PC-DOS, PC-DOS was barely affected by its presence. Shows how much to believe "experts"! -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 11 12:31:25 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: PICK OS In-Reply-To: <3710E744.3A277D2B@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: No discussion of PICK would be complete without noting the exceptional enthusiasm (fanatacism?) of its adherents. Dick Pick has quite a following. Next mailing that I get from them, I'll pass on the contact information. > > I saw an interesting book at the library today about something called PICK > > OS. I didn't get to look through the entire book, but I read enough to see Ah, but one of the greatest accidental titles: One of the publishers came out with a series of books called "Pocket Guides". "Unix Pocket Guide", "DOS Pocket Guide", and, .... "Pick Pocket Guide"! From max82 at surfree.com Sun Apr 11 11:37:22 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: PICK OS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: >I think PICK runs on the Honeywell DPS systems. Isn't it a business system? The book said that there had been several ports. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Apr 11 12:41:57 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: PDP11's TU10's and Write rings In-Reply-To: <37100275.E9E6EEC8@idirect.com> from Jerome Fine at "Apr 10, 1999 10: 1:25 pm" Message-ID: <199904111742.NAA37021@pechter.dyndns.org> > >Bill Pechter wrote: > > > (One day, ask me about the DEC story of the customer who epoxied in the write > > ring area on the 9 track tapes to make sure his operators couldn't put > > them in to write enable and over-write a backup tape...) > > Jerome Fine replies: > > OK! I bite. This is "One day". But two questions: > > Was the backup already made? Or did the customer try and "anticipate" > the problem by putting in the epoxy before the backup was done? I seem to remember this story something like this. This was told to me by another Field Service grunt... so it's basically a friend of a friend tale -- and I can't verify it... but I believe it all. There was this small automotive house that was just going to computers for their inventory instead of the manual punch card tub used for stock pulls at the time. They had a problem with their backups (I believe it was an 11 running RSTS or RSX). The tech went down and found there was an ECO to the tape drive write gate or write amp circuit, fixed it and talked with the shop owner who was very afraid of losing more backup data). The tech sat down and explained the tape had this wring at the back and even if the operator issued the commands reversing input and output with this special plastic ring removed the drive couldn't overwrite. the tape. The shop owner was very pleased and told the tech and the service manager about it and all was well for a couple of weeks... They tried to recover data from a backup tape that was overwritten. The tech went down, tested the drive and pronounced it ok. The write lock solenoid was good, the write gate logic was working. There was NO WAY the operators could've overwritten the tape with the ring removed. The owner showed the tech a box where all the write rings were removed and stored and one ring was left locked away in case they needed to write on a tape. The owner said I even guaraneed these rings will never go in our backup tapes again. The tech looked at the tape. The write ring space was filled smooth with fast drying epoxy or body filler. The tech had a hard time not laughing and explained how the write lock solenoid and write ring worked. Bill From max82 at surfree.com Sun Apr 11 11:51:06 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: OT: copying OS/2 Warp In-Reply-To: <199904102241.SAA34662@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Bill Pechter wrote: >OS/2 xcopy /h /o /t /s /e /r /v followed by sysinstx from the maintenance That may explain it. I only did xcopy /s. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 11 13:07:48 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <004a01be842d$ffdb27e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote to Allison: > The principal complaint I heard about the M1 was the principal complaint > about the M3. It was a paper tiger until you opened the box and added a > bunch of stuff/mods. While I agree, I kinda doubt that Allison has EVER plugged in ANYTHING before she "opened the box and added a bunch of stuff/mods". So, she might not see that as quite the negative that you do :-) > The same, to lesser extent, perhaps, could be said for > the Apple. The Apple was made easy-to-open. The RS boxes were not. While velcro is certainly extraordinarily convenient, particularly to those bothered by screwdrivers. But, as an occasional professional auto mechanic, I hardly felt that half a dozen screws made something hard to open. But it is true that RS had a very bad attitude about it. They actually had anti-tamper paint on one of the screws! One of the local RS technicians had an interesting slant on that: Since RS's policies apparently didn't explicitly mention modifications, only that the tamper seal must be intact, he would happily do the various warranty mods (there were SEVERAL for the early EI), IFF you provided him circuit sketches for all mods, and put a dab of the anti-tamper paint (he would provide it) on the screw after you made the mods. He said that if the store manager balked at seeing additional stuff through the slots of the "unopened" case, just start talking about "building boats in bottles". Apple's attitude of "go on in!" was much more refreshing. > When I saw my first PC in a commercial environment, it was running CP/M-86 > because that had the software the business owner was using previously on his > Z-80. I often wondered what motivated him to switch. I also saw a couple > of people's Apple-II running CP/M-86, and was awed by the fact they'd run an > OS that was slower than the previous and better-endowed (with software) > CP/M-80 in the same basic environment. Interesting. What after-market system were they running to do CP/M-86 on the Apple? > IBM really performed only one major service to the microcomputer world: > They lent it its own trade name, which was its legitimacy. "PC" was in moderately common usage around here before IBM's entry. IBM always considered "PC" to be a shortened description, NOT a trade name! They did NOT trademark "PC". They never even trademarked "PC-DOS"!! OTOH, "MS-DOS" IS a registered trademark. > Having done > that, the behemoth was overrun by smaller, more adept innovators. Like a handful of fleas on an elephant. One fellow referred to Compaq's "challenge" of IBM as "a mouse running up the elephant's leg with intent to rape". From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 11 13:18:12 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <000801be8447$bb9e22c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> If you look at the instructions as opposed to getting too hung up on the register assets, and simply look at what it takes to "do something" e.g. load a value, do some arithmetic, store a value, etc. the two instruction sets have considerable overlap. However, the longest instructions for the 6502 take six (?) clock ticks, while the shortest ones for the Z-80 take four. (feel free to correct me, as I haven't even though about this, let alone looked at precise instruction details for over ten years.) I don't know how long the longest instruction for the Z-80 takes nor do I even know what its longest instruction is. I'd imagine it's one in which you load a 16-bit register from memory, indexed, or some such. That would have to take a fair number of clock ticks. In my comparisons, I've always fudged in favor of the Z-80, because it didn't make sense to me that a processor so cheap and simple would be as much faster than a Z-80 as the 6502 appeared. The hardware problems aside, the Z-80 instruction set is full of pretty complex instructions which take a number of clock ticks. The 6502 is full of fairly complex instructions too, but not as many. Fortunately, most programmers don't use ALL of either processor's instructions unless they are pushed. If you look at a simple load-the-accumulator then store-the-result, which occurs often in almost any application, the Z-80 takes about 6 ticks in the opcode fetch/decode (the instruction is decoded during the refresh cycle), three for each byte of the source address, then three to fetch the value. It then takes as long to store the result to memory. That's 6+3+3+3=15, twice is 30 ticks, or 7.5 microseconds at 4MHz. The 6502 takes one to fetch the load opcode, one to fetch each byte of the source address, one to execute the load, one to fetch the store opcode, one for each byte of the destination address, and one to accomplish the store. That's 5 to load, 5 to store, which is 10, right? It would appear that the 6502 would get through this pretty quickly at the same clock rate, i.e. 2.5 microseconds, but the problem is that external peripheral devices wouldn't run this fast. What's more, the 4 MHz parts, though priced a little higher than a 4 MHz Z-80, in 1980, the Z-80 had peripherals which would work very well together with the CPU at 4 MHz. Nevertheless, that's a 3:1 performance ratio which, based on the fact that there were many more register-to-register (quick) operations available to the Z-80 programmer, it's hard to imagine these would close the gap that much. They would have a significant impact, though. I think you can easily build a circuit with a 2 MHz 6502 and one with a 4 MHz Z-80 and make a comparison yourself. If you honestly try to take advantage of the instruction set to accomplish a task on both processors, you'll play HELL getting the Z-80 to keep up. It can be done, though, if the task is chosen properly. A pair of simulators would be really handy, wouldn't it? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 10:55 AM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) >On Apr 11, 10:20, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit >51 >> I have to disagree with your comparison of the 2 MHz 6502 with a 4 MHz >> Z-80A. My thought here is that the 4MHz Z-80 used in the conventional >way, >> had a memory cycle of 750 nanoseconds (3 clock ticks), while the 6502, at >> whatever rate, again, used in the conventional way, had a memory cycle of >> one clock tick. Now, some instructions involve several memory cycles, >but >> that was true of both processor families. What I often cursed, was that >the >> textbook application of the 650x core left memory available (idle) half >the >> time. That was a blessing up to a point (2.5 MHz to be exact) because it >> allowed for DRAM "RAS-precharge." The Apple and others like it proved >that >> at around 1 MHz, the 6502's memory could be used for an entirely separate >> purpose, e.g. video refresh. > >I wasn't talking about precisely 2MHz vs 4MHz, just a ballpark figure (as >opposed to "about the same" or "about ten times" clock speeds). So, given >the rest of your message, I think we're in broad agreement. BTW, BBC >Micros have a 2MHz clock on the 6502, and interleaved video and processor >access quite happily in 1980. The video took care of the refresh >requirement. > >> I believe there are entirely too many subjective, architecture-related, >> factors to allow an absolute comparison/contrast of the two processors. > >Agreed :-) That's why lies, damned lies, and benchmarks are so much fun >:-) > >> In my "gut" I still believe the 4 MHz Z-80 is about >> comparable to a 1.5 MHz 6502. > >Well, that's not very far from what I wrote, is it? I was just pointing >out that although Allison seemed to imply that a 6 or 8MHz Z80 was much >faster than a 4MHz(? I haven't got the original message any more) 6502, I >believe that to be far from the case. > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Apr 11 13:25:32 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: Parting out PDP-8a Message-ID: <19990411182532.21300.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> --- jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > Guys: > > I have discovered a PDP-8a in a scrapyard near my workplace. > It has been outside for awhile; but if there are any salvable > parts there, would anyone be interested? But of course. > BTW-- How do I get the front panel off without breaking > anything? Depending on the front panel style, if you see two 1/4" holes, one on either edge, it may take an allen wrench. If the panel has no apparent tool access, it's probably held in place by a pair of ball and socket joints on each side which can get extremely tight if pressed on too hard and left to sit. There are times when I think I'm about to bust the balls right off the backplace, and sometimes I'm right. :-( What's inside? What are you offering? At this point, I could even use a new chassis as I have a full set of a mix of verified working and untested boards (128kW MOS, RL8A, etc). I'm sure that the memory and disk I/O work; I am not certain that my spare DKC8AA is any good. ISTR that about 10 years ago I pulled it and set it aside for acting up. I would also like to lay my hands on a programmer's console. It's one of the only things (besides hex-high core) that I'm missing. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From mbg at world.std.com Sun Apr 11 13:33:26 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: Parting out PDP-8a Message-ID: <199904111833.AA04147@world.std.com> >I would also like to lay my hands on a programmer's console. It's one of >the only things (besides hex-high core) that I'm missing. Same here... the 8/A I recently got seems pretty fully loaded (I haven't yet itemized what's in it), but the one thing it doesn't have, and that I really really want is a programmer's console for it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 11 13:36:55 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <001801be844a$46f28da0$0100c0a8@fuj03> I didn't hate the glyptol on the screws nearly so much as I hated the bayonet interlocks, which often broke when you opened a RS box Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 12:16 PM Subject: Re: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism >On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote to Allison: >> The principal complaint I heard about the M1 was the principal complaint >> about the M3. It was a paper tiger until you opened the box and added a >> bunch of stuff/mods. > >While I agree, I kinda doubt that Allison has EVER plugged in ANYTHING >before she "opened the box and added a bunch of stuff/mods". So, she >might not see that as quite the negative that you do :-) > >> The same, to lesser extent, perhaps, could be said for >> the Apple. The Apple was made easy-to-open. The RS boxes were not. > >While velcro is certainly extraordinarily convenient, particularly to >those bothered by screwdrivers. But, as an occasional professional auto >mechanic, I hardly felt that half a dozen screws made something hard to >open. But it is true that RS had a very bad attitude about it. They >actually had anti-tamper paint on one of the screws! One of the local RS >technicians had an interesting slant on that: Since RS's policies >apparently didn't explicitly mention modifications, only that the tamper >seal must be intact, he would happily do the various warranty mods (there >were SEVERAL for the early EI), IFF you provided him circuit sketches for >all mods, and put a dab of the anti-tamper paint (he would provide it) on >the screw after you made the mods. He said that if the store manager >balked at seeing additional stuff through the slots of the "unopened" >case, just start talking about "building boats in bottles". Apple's >attitude of "go on in!" was much more refreshing. > > >> When I saw my first PC in a commercial environment, it was running CP/M-86 >> because that had the software the business owner was using previously on his >> Z-80. I often wondered what motivated him to switch. I also saw a couple >> of people's Apple-II running CP/M-86, and was awed by the fact they'd run an >> OS that was slower than the previous and better-endowed (with software) >> CP/M-80 in the same basic environment. > >Interesting. What after-market system were they running to do CP/M-86 on >the Apple? > >> IBM really performed only one major service to the microcomputer world: >> They lent it its own trade name, which was its legitimacy. >"PC" was in moderately common usage around here before IBM's entry. >IBM always considered "PC" to be a shortened description, NOT a trade >name! They did NOT trademark "PC". They never even trademarked >"PC-DOS"!! OTOH, "MS-DOS" IS a registered trademark. > >> Having done >> that, the behemoth was overrun by smaller, more adept innovators. > >Like a handful of fleas on an elephant. > >One fellow referred to Compaq's "challenge" of IBM as "a mouse running up >the elephant's leg with intent to rape". > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 11 13:37:23 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:02 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <199904111837.AA06727@world.std.com> <> The point was apparently missed. Of course I can take a cmos z80 and that out of the water using a 6 or 8 mhz clock. < Allison and I were over at my place today, unloading some of the haul from the weekend - now I've got an RL01 to put on the 11/34a so that I can have a booting system. We took some time to take a look at the pdp-8/e that I now have (which, conincidentally enough was hers about 8 years ago when she gave it to someone else -- the person from whom I obtained my recent haul). We replaced the missing fuse, then used a piece of wire to jumper the plug in the back so it would power up (we got it from the lab-8/e -- the same connector was apparently missing from that machine, so they kludged it). Anyway, we plugged it in, and turned it on.... fans whirred just fine. Allison toggled in a quick program and demonstrated that it had 8k in it, that the CPU seems to execute some instructions, and some of the lights work... so we're off and running. The front panel had a piece broken out of it below the keyswitch, and the panel was kind of dirty... so we removed it and I've cleaned it up. For the time-being the piece is tacked back in with glue from a hot glue gun, but I'll use something else later on... I've also taken some pictures of the case from various angles and have them up in my jpg area, but I haven't set up links to them... If anyone wants to see them by typing in the path to them, they're at http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp8e_view_001.jpg (002, 003, 004) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 11 13:56:32 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <000c01be844d$0419cae0$0100c0a8@fuj03> I agree with your comment about the IBM's. The first PC-clone I bought was an XT based on an 80186. By comparison with other available XT-class machines, it was EXTREMELY fast. It was, in fact, quicker than the initial AT-class IBM's, as it ran at 12 MHz. The '186 and '286 had the same execution unit, hence the same code would run in the same time, if the clocks were at the same speed. The '286 got the fancy MMU, however, while the '186 got the built-in peripherals, which the boot firmware had to relocated out of the way first off. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 12:45 PM Subject: Re: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism > >RS didn't want people opening the box. Since there really wasn't a bus on >it internally to hook up to there was little reason besides the internal >hacks (lowercase, speed ups, control ^key, and tape fixes.). The real >problem is the V1 EI was a total dissaster. Obviously the designer new >nothing about the timing and skew constraints for Dram. the later V2 EI >was far better. > >The other thing was apple sorta supported adding boards to increase >functionality or performance. They were amoung the first to have the >essence of plug and play. That was a very good thing. > > >it wasn't an operating system thing it was programs like databases (DBASE) >and spreadsheets (multiplan and VISICALC) what were the killer apps for >business and they ate RAM big time. The z80 could have banked ram, some >did but there never got to be a concenses on how to do it and support it at >the OS level and then the 16bit cpus wer hyped to solve that "64k barrier". > > >Absolutly. The Compupro and other 8086 S100 systems were far faster and >could run many more OSs and apps. One outfit held off from PCs until >1993 when it was a leap to 386s. The leap also was from older DBASE to >the then hotter Paradox. Sometimes software drives hardware. > > >Allison > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Apr 11 14:06:53 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E In-Reply-To: <199904111843.AA09981@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990411120105.00b544b0@mcmanis.com> At 02:43 PM 4/11/99 -0400, Megan wrote: >If anyone wants to see them by typing in the path to them, they're >at > http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp8e_view_001.jpg > (002, 003, 004) Thanks Megan! The are great pictures. Can I confirm a couple of things? That the vents in the cover are offset from the fans in the PSU? so it goes: ----------------- | + | + <- cover vents | + | + | | + <- PSU fans | | + | | | + | | + <--+ | + ----------------- And does the cover have a lip over the PSU with holes in the side to screw into the PSU? I had a hard time seeing the plastic catches that were discussed here on the list. --Chuck From jlwest at tseinc.com Sun Apr 11 14:07:50 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: PICK OS - I know it well... Message-ID: <010801be844e$98aad2c0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> My company has specialized in the Pick OS for about 17 years. Matter of fact, I spent a lot of time writing some portions of the operating system for several of the implementing manufacturers as an independent consultant. The "virtual" assembler on Pick is truely unique - the entire instruction set is geared for byte oriented string searches on delimiters, etc. Very bizzare, but I loved the assembler on it. In addition, due to the way the virtual assembler was implemented, porting the Pick OS to a different hardware platform was childsplay, and typically took about a week at most. Yes, I have the PC version, as well as full source code to Reality 2.5D (a Microdata -> McDonnel Douglas implementation on the M1600 systems). I'm sure I have OS load tapes for many of the other platforms too (LSI11, Honeywell DPS6 [those two weren't really called pick, they were called Ultimate OS, but it WAS pick], General Automation, Prime [called INFORMATION on that platform], ADDS [mentor OS], Universe [a variant of pick that runs on top of Unix], Revelation [a variant running on DOS], there are MANY others). Contrary to what others have mentioned, it virtually NEVER had built in networking. Picks strong suit was database management and multiuser handling, it's weak point was communications and networking - it REALLY stunk at those last two. Ah - but it's database manager was the greatest thing around for business data management. Also, it was VERY extensible - the only problem was that any extensions had to be written in assembler. The virtual assembler on pick was largely undocumented and something of a black art. The PC version was not a toy - I had a small hand in it as well. The virtual code was 100% identical to the pick OS code used on many of the mainframe versions - the only difference was the machine dependent monitor code which implemented the missionary instructions. Other than that difference (which isn't visible to the user or programmer) it was identical to the other "r83" type implementations. I had no idea there was pick interest here. If someone wants a small writeup of the OS architecture and progression through history, I'd be happy to resurrect those brain cells :) Jay West -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 5:07 PM Subject: PICK OS >I saw an interesting book at the library today about something called PICK >OS. I didn't get to look through the entire book, but I read enough to see >that it refers to directories as dictionaries. It seems to take a novel >approach, but I know nothing about it. Haven't even heard of it. Does >anyone here know more? Does anyone here have the PC version (mentioned in >the book)? > >--Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > > From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Apr 11 14:23:16 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: Micropolis 1518 and 1538 - update (still problems) In-Reply-To: References: <199904102347.TAA22608@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199904111918.PAA05688@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 22:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Don Maslin To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Micropolis 1518 and 1538, full manual for both wanted. Originally to: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers I still need full jumpers info set to set up the Micropolis properly and I have to ask my friend to burn new set of EPROM's for the ultrastor 12F-24 (old is 009 version, the latest is 11 and 12) Problems: I can LLF and map defects, save them and verify whole thing but fdisk seems to destory the data and the configuration data seems not to kept on the drive itself deposited by controller. True on the 1518 (1.3GB) but I have no problems on 1538 (.9GB). I think it's the EPROM 009 version is the problem? Any ideas? Wizard From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 11 13:06:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: source for foam filter material In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990411122556.00aab1c0@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Apr 11, 99 12:34:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1449 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990411/c9283403/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Apr 11 14:43:34 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: Micropolis 1518/1538 (24MHz) drive problems In-Reply-To: <3710F7FA.E7415E11@direct.ca> Message-ID: <199904111938.PAA22000@mail.cgocable.net> Wait everybody! I have the same old thing that is on that website and these drives that info is based on assumes it's "stock" setup for standard 512byte in peecees applications or like that is compatiable with this settings. I suspected that both drives I have here might be set for specific applications used in nonstandard machines for example RT. I knew of this facts some drives get special mods or special jumper settings. Those are what I need to confirm that my drives are set up properly. This info I'm searching for are not found on the 'net with basic search engines like looksmart.com, go2net.com etc. Wizard From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Apr 11 14:40:00 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: Fwd: H8 Enthusiasts Message-ID: <4.1.19990411153546.00af25f0@206.231.8.2> Okay folks, I know a few of you have been looking for these items (Hans F.! Are you reading this now?) so have at it! :-) Seems to be just an H-10 manual, not the unit itself though :( Write Jeff directly of course, don't reply to me. -- Chris >Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 12:06:32 -0400 >Reply-To: Jeff Headlee >Sender: Heathkit Owners and Collectors List >From: Jeff Headlee >Organization: @Home Network >Subject: H8 Enthusiasts >To: HEATH@LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV > >Greetings, > >I have an H8 computer and a bunch of manuals I must clear out >to tidy up the basement. The H8 has an 8k memeory card in it >but the computer doesn't work. The power supply appears OK, >but the speaker screams a lot and the post is not successful. >Otherwise the unit is in good shape. The manuals are for the many >peripherals available for the H8: > > (2) H8 complete > H9 video terminal (assembly and operation) > H8-2 parallel I/O interface (assembly) > H8-5 serial I/O cassette card (assembly) > H10 paper tape reader/punch (assembly and operation) > 8k static memory card schematics > >Free to loving home if you pay postage or you can pick it up if you >live in the Baltimore MD area. > >Jeff > >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- >To subscribe: listserv@listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: subscribe HEATH yourfirstname yourlastname >To unsubscribe: listserv@listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: signoff HEATH >Archives for HEATH: http://www.tempe.gov/archives >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From mbg at world.std.com Sun Apr 11 15:17:45 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E Message-ID: <199904112017.AA18212@world.std.com> >Thanks Megan! The are great pictures. Thanks... >Can I confirm a couple of things? >That the vents in the cover are offset from the fans in the PSU? so it >goes: > > ----------------- > | + > | + <- cover vents > | + | > + | | > + <- PSU fans | | > + | | > | + | > | + <--+ > | + > ----------------- > I can't really tell... I'm not near the machine right now... and the picture is not good enough to figure that out. >And does the cover have a lip over the PSU with holes in the side to >screw into the PSU? I had a hard time seeing the plastic catches that >were discussed here on the list. The cover does have a lip on the PSU side of the case. There are no screw holes, just the latches. On mine, the latches (which are plastic) seem to have been broken off, so that's probably why you don't see them. They're black on black in a lossy photo, so easy to miss... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 11 15:18:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 11, 99 11:07:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2980 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990411/56187d5b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 11 15:23:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <001801be844a$46f28da0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 11, 99 12:36:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 879 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990411/c5fa776e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 11 15:27:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E In-Reply-To: <199904111843.AA09981@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Apr 11, 99 02:43:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1251 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990411/6513c4a0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 11 15:31:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990411120105.00b544b0@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 11, 99 12:06:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1190 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990411/342df092/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Apr 11 16:06:33 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <000801be8447$bb9e22c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 11, 99 12:18:12 pm Message-ID: <199904112106.OAA24832@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 711 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990411/8d99c602/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Apr 11 16:09:31 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <004701be842c$2ba1bd00$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 11, 99 09:00:55 am Message-ID: <199904112109.OAA29530@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 779 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990411/1fdf46ef/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Sun Apr 11 16:12:16 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E Message-ID: <199904112112.AA17063@world.std.com> >You mean you _don't_ have a pile of PDP11 power control cables to raid >suitable plugs from ? I do have cables, but I didn't want to canabalize any in order to just make a loop. The looped wire did the trick anyway... >Nice!. It's worth testing all the panel lamps (just load an address of >all 1's, store data of all 1's to location 0, etc). A blown bulb can make >debugging a program rather hard... I plan on doing that at some point... Yes, a blown bulb can make debugging VERY annoying... >Try to get some 'plastic weld'. It's a solvent for the sort of plastic >used on these panels, and you can weld the broken bit back in place. It's >normally a very strong repair. Thanks... I'll keep that in mind... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Apr 11 16:17:54 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: PICK OS - I know it well... In-Reply-To: <010801be844e$98aad2c0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> from "Jay West" at Apr 11, 99 02:07:50 pm Message-ID: <199904112117.OAA29262@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1041 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990411/d73444f2/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 11 16:26:15 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) "Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)" (Apr 11, 14:37) References: <199904111837.AA06727@world.std.com> Message-ID: <9904112226.ZM24760@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 11, 14:37, Allison J Parent wrote: > Yes, the 6502 overlaps the instuction fetch and execute (mini pipeline). > The z80 is more classic multi-state machine. In the end the two parts are > roughly the same speed for their generation. IE: a 4mhz z80 does basic > operations in 1uS and 6502 at 2mhz is about the same. That's about my estimation, Richard's example not withstanding. > the difference is > any is when complex indexing or other tassks are discussed where the z80 > has a better instuction set (though slower...more states) the 6502 uses > more small instructions(fast but many). I'm not sure I'd agree, when it comes to indexing. I think the 6502 indexing is more useful in typical cases, and the instruction set is much "cleaner" in some ways. However... > In the end they do the same task just different. Exactly. I was brought up on the Z80, or at least that's what my earliest assembly language experience was on, but I learned how to use a 6502 pretty well. Just a different design philosophy. > That supports the only logical conclusion... clock speeds dont count. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Apr 11 16:52:56 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990411120105.00b544b0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990411144224.00ad1ef0@mcmanis.com> At 09:31 PM 4/11/99 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >If you are going to make your own cover (do you have sheet-metal forming >facilities?) then you could make the lip about 1" deep at the front and >back and screw it in place. It wouldn't be original, though. I do have sheet metal forming capabilities. However since it isn't going to be a "real" cover anyway I'm considering making it out of polycarbonate (trade name Lexan) The goal would be to have a transparent cover that I could affix labels to that identified the function of the boards, without having to leave the top off. The goal would be to allow it to be set up in a museum where it was running, but showed off the insides as well. (my daughter's 3rd grade class got a real kick out of the fact that both the CPU and memory were three board sets rather than single chips.) So this is the current plan: Lexan material, Bent metal (custom) hinges on the right hand side, velcro straps on the left and two velcro patches glues to the side of the psu to hold the straps. Labels on the sides and tops. >The catches on my machine were broken before I got it, but the cover >stays in place just fine without them. So you don't need to fasten it down. Yup, I would guess from the pictures that the top would be statically stable in the "closed" position. When I get this thing built I'll take some pix of it and post em on my web site. --Chuck From roblwill at usaor.net Sun Apr 11 19:42:57 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: GeoWorks -- Commodore/Apple/PC? Message-ID: <01be847d$688cf800$be9ba6d1@the-general> GEOS wasn't multitasking? I have it on my Tandy Zoomer (with AOL), and can switch back and forth between two programs, and they seem to be where they were left before (They can't be minimized, like Windows, but they don't seem to close). -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 7:58 PM Subject: Re: GeoWorks -- Commodore/Apple/PC? >::I Used to have a Commodore 128 that had GeoWorks on it (I think it was >::actually GEOS, or something like that). I also have a box and font/graphics >::set for the PC version or GeoWorks. I've also heard that there was a >::version of it for the Apple // series. > >PC GeoWorks != Commodore/Apple GEOS. Totally different architectures. The >8-bit GEOS was a single-tasking GUI API; the PC version is actually an entire >true preemptively multitasking OS. AOL, before the Windows client emerged, >in fact was based on a PC-GEOS runtime. > >Apple GEOS was an unmitigated flop, especially because Apple was heavily >pushing Quark Catalyst. A shame, because Berkeley Softworks (now GeoWorks) >was trying to add application cross-compatibility between Commodore and Apple >GEOS where possible. > >Commodore GEOS, on the other hand, was and is a big hit. It's still sold >and manufactured, and now people have issued homegrown patches for it that >allow it to take advantage of RAM expansion up to 16MB, hard drive real >estate and the SuperCPU accelerators, and even do context-switching. Avoid >versions before 1.5, however, and even then C= GEOS didn't come into its own >until v2.0. > >-- >-------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- >Cameron Kaiser Database Programmer/Administrative Computing >Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 >ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 >-- A straw vote only shows which way the hot air blows. -- O. Henry ----------- > From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Apr 11 17:16:13 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: GeoWorks -- Commodore/Apple/PC? In-Reply-To: <01be847d$688cf800$be9ba6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Apr 11, 99 05:42:57 pm Message-ID: <199904112216.PAA05238@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 811 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990411/e9b87aa3/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 11 17:27:44 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <199904112227.AA09574@world.std.com> <$399 without the monitor and cassette. I struggled long and hard with IBM really performed only one major service to the microcomputer world: <> They lent it its own trade name, which was its legitimacy. <"PC" was in moderately common usage around here before IBM's entry. Ok, I was wondering how the 8/E manages its cables. In the 8/f/m chassis there is a sliding door with a plate on it to act as a strain relief and exit point for cables exiting the CPU chassis. I don't think I want to put something in the cover I'm building but I really think the strain relief is necessary (I've seen M8650 boards with one connector broken off because of a pull on the cable and there wasn't anything to take the strain) Anyway, thoughts appreciated, --Chuck From donm at cts.com Sun Apr 11 17:46:03 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: Micropolis 1518 and 1538 - update (still problems) In-Reply-To: <199904111918.PAA05688@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Apr 1999 jpero@cgocable.net wrote: ________O/_______ O\ > Problems: > > I can LLF and map defects, save them and verify whole thing but > fdisk seems to destory the data and the configuration data seems > not to kept on the drive itself deposited by controller. True on the > 1518 (1.3GB) but I have no problems on 1538 (.9GB). > > I think it's the EPROM 009 version is the problem? > > Any ideas? > Not really, as I never had any comparable problems with the Maxtors using either the earlier or later EPROMs. I presume that you have picked up the available documentation from the web. - don From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 11 17:47:13 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) "Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)" (Apr 11, 18:27) References: <199904112227.AA09574@world.std.com> Message-ID: <9904112347.ZM25105@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 11, 18:27, Allison J Parent wrote: > I was pointing out that is the processor was running fast enough even a > dog can look good. ;) cf any recent pentium :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 11 18:08:24 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <002001be8470$33c4ed60$0100c0a8@fuj03> Well, the policy here in the U.S. seems to be to skip the outgoing inspection and replace it with a warranty. The terms of the warranty make it void if you open the box, so the buyer returns it for a replacement or refund, and the maker then gets to do the outgoing inspection on the incoming trip back. -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 2:47 PM Subject: Re: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism >> >> On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote to Allison: >> > The principal complaint I heard about the M1 was the principal complaint >> > about the M3. It was a paper tiger until you opened the box and added a >> > bunch of stuff/mods. >> >> While I agree, I kinda doubt that Allison has EVER plugged in ANYTHING >> before she "opened the box and added a bunch of stuff/mods". So, she >> might not see that as quite the negative that you do :-) > >You mean there _are_ people who plug things in without pulling the case >and checking that it's built correctly? They must be mad... > >Of course once you've got the lid off, you might as well fix whatever the >original designers got wrong ;-) > >> >> > The same, to lesser extent, perhaps, could be said for >> > the Apple. The Apple was made easy-to-open. The RS boxes were not. >> >> While velcro is certainly extraordinarily convenient, particularly to >> those bothered by screwdrivers. But, as an occasional professional auto >> mechanic, I hardly felt that half a dozen screws made something hard to > >I've also never seen the point of 'screwless' cases. If I'm going to be >fixing/modifying something I'm going to need a logic probe (or better an >logic analyser), multimeter, soldering iron, pliers, cutters, etc. Having >to use a screwdriver as well is no big problem.. > >> open. But it is true that RS had a very bad attitude about it. They >> actually had anti-tamper paint on one of the screws! One of the local RS > >Some machines had a label over one of the screws. What Tandy didn't >realise was that it was possible to get the label off in one piece >without tearing it, and then stick it back after you'd done the mod... > >> technicians had an interesting slant on that: Since RS's policies >> apparently didn't explicitly mention modifications, only that the tamper >> seal must be intact, he would happily do the various warranty mods (there >> were SEVERAL for the early EI), IFF you provided him circuit sketches for > >I never put Tandy UK to the test (I always fixed my Model 1 myself). >Although the local shop did get me some of the parts either free or for a >nominal charge for me to do a couple of official mods myself. > >> all mods, and put a dab of the anti-tamper paint (he would provide it) on >> the screw after you made the mods. He said that if the store manager >> balked at seeing additional stuff through the slots of the "unopened" > >:-) :-) > >> case, just start talking about "building boats in bottles". Apple's >> attitude of "go on in!" was much more refreshing. > >Although, IIRC the Apple ][ Techref did mention that doing the Eurapple >mod (50 Hz video) would void the warranty. It appeared that you could >open the case and stick in expansion cards with no problems, but if you >took a soldering iron to the motherboard you were on your own. Again it >didn't bother me. Both the Apple ][ and TRS-80 had excellent tech manuals >available, so fixing them yourself was the easiest thing to do. > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 11 18:20:52 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <002d01be8471$f17fad80$0100c0a8@fuj03> I don't think Commodore was a factor in this aspect of the process. The Commodore machines weren't "accessible" enough, in that there was no really convenient way to install the additional hardware people wanted, so nobody (well, almost) built it. They couldn't afford a market clash with the Apple. They had a safe market in Europe, which didn't seem to suffer as badly from the video-toy-looking Apple as their U.S. market did. By the time all the goodies were installed, the Apple became a formidable presence to be reckoned with by nearly any computer maker. The Apples were unduly costly, but they exhibited an unprecedented breadth of applications with more variety of plug-in peripherals than even an S-100 box offered. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 3:14 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) >::I agree with you there. The Zilog boys had the CP/M crowd to maintain the >::low-end of their development system market, so nobody could complain it was >::too expensive to develop. The MOS-Technology folks had merely to point at >::the Apple to accomplish the same thing. Meanwhile, Motorola was making a > >Commodore, too (well, they did own MOS Technology, after all). > >-- >-------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- >Cameron Kaiser Database Programmer/Administrative Computing >Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 >ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 >-- Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. -- Gen. O. N. Bradley From jlewczyk at his.com Sun Apr 11 18:35:10 1999 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: Don Lancaster was Re: Ebay Mark-8 Plans Message-ID: <007d01be8473$f0bd5d00$013da8c0@Corellian> Actually, He was on the scene very early, accoridng to me sources. I have copies of the very first Mark-8 computer newsletters and he was a contributor, providing some detailed information on building quality power supplies. His name was on the list of newsletter receipients from the beginning. And this was 1974, so yeah, he meets the >10 rule! :-) > I know that he cammme on the scene later than some of > the other people who have been mentioned as past or future > VCF speakers, but he certainly meets the >10 rule. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 11 18:15:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <199904112228.AA09778@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 11, 99 06:28:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 739 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990412/74c9fa7a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 11 18:18:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: 8/E cable handling? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990411153552.00ab25a0@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 11, 99 03:41:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 512 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990412/6b5474af/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Apr 11 18:57:08 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: 8/E cable handling? In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990411153552.00ab25a0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990411165347.00b21760@mcmanis.com> At 12:18 AM 4/12/99 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >The problem comes when you have a mixture of ribbon cables and different >sizes of round cables. Almost impossible to clamp onto that. At least on of the plates here had some sort of foamish pad that presumably made it more compiant around several sizes of cable. On the back of my PSU I've got six fuses (2 w x 3 tall config) and then (looking from the back) in the upper right I have a plate with two 110V style wall outlets (presumably to plug in the PC04 and RX01. So where does this attach on yours? --Chuck From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Apr 11 18:52:34 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <002d01be8471$f17fad80$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 11, 99 05:20:52 pm Message-ID: <199904112352.QAA27406@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2979 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990411/ab869f8b/attachment.ksh From max82 at surfree.com Sun Apr 11 17:57:57 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: PICK OS - I know it well... In-Reply-To: <010801be844e$98aad2c0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Jay West wrote: >I had no idea there was pick interest here. If someone wants a small writeup >of the OS architecture and progression through history, I'd be happy to >resurrect those brain cells :) Please, do. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 11 19:00:37 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E Message-ID: <199904120000.AA29672@world.std.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 11, 99 05:08:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1077 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990412/3ab6cd92/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Sun Apr 11 19:12:08 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E Message-ID: <199904120012.AA06860@world.std.com> >The data lights were ok the address lights I remember a high order >one bad. Actually, I was back over at my museum earlier this evening, to put the cleaned and repaired front panel on the 8/e... I took the time to power it up myself, and did a little playing with loadadrs and dep... I verified that I can address both fields (0 and 1)... it has 8k. I checked the EMA lights, and they all light. I tested the address lights and they all light... I checked out the data lights, they all light, at least in MD position... I've yet to check the other positions... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 11 19:11:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: 8/E cable handling? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990411165347.00b21760@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 11, 99 04:57:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1138 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990412/b3efacf4/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Apr 11 19:21:03 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 In-Reply-To: <199904120000.AA29883@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 11, 99 08:00:49 pm Message-ID: <199904120021.RAA10336@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 886 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990411/27c4e1f3/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 11 19:27:07 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:03 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <004001be847b$463561e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Well, Allison, you're going to force me to venture into the archives and fetch the data sheet. I'll get back to you on the precise numbers after I've looked them up, but for now, I recall that the normal memory cycle was three clock ticks long. That's the cycle, not the stroke into memory. Your assertion "The memory active portion of the instruction cycle was far shorter, typically 300ns at 4mhz (shorter for M1 cycle)" is ABSOLUTELY correct. However, it took three clock ticks in order to generate that cycle. IIRC, the entire M1 (opcode fetch + refresh) cycle took 4 or 5 (?) clock ticks, which made it the longest cycle. Memory cycles other than opcode fetches took 3 ticks and I believe I/O cycles took 4. The theory was that one execute a bunch of memory cycles to load up the internal registers of the Z-80, of which there are plenty, and then execute scads of register-register instructions which are faster, in order to accomplish a given computational task. It didn't easily work out that way, a notion which wasn't lost on the designers of the 6502. The MOS-Technology people who first implemented the 6502 architecture, recognized that although the Z-80 had plenty of registers, it still wasn't enough, so they shortened the memory access cycles. In fact, they used a whole addressing mode focused on the lowest page in memory, as, MOTOROLA had done, and they opted for an 8-bit stack pointer, which gave them the ability to execute stack-oriented operations faster than the Z-80 and its kin could do so. It could look at its zero-page as extra-fast memory, or slow register space. In any case, a stack operation took one clock tick + one clock tick per byte. A zero page operation, depending on the operation in question, took one clock tick less time than that same instruction operating on any of the rest of memory. A load or store took two cycles, and an indexed load or store took three. Today, we're equipped with cheap VERY fast large, SRAMs which would make it much easire to make a solid and objective test of the two processors. Unfortunately, there's little reason to do so, since neither is of any commercial interest. The testing I did was many years ago, and my emphasis was on which one worked faster in raw speed in a DRAM environment in which the affordable DRAMs were of the 200 ns flavor. I've never been comfortable with my final conclusion that the Z-80 was faster, except for the observation I made along the way, that most tasks simply couldn't be done realistically on the 6502 because the tools weren't available. Have YOU seen a 'C' compiler for any of the 6502 types? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 4:35 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) > >No it did not. The memory active portion of the instruction cycle was >far shorter, typically 300ns at 4mhz (shorter for M1 cycle). the rest of >the time the cpu cares not if memory is there. Now if your depending on the >CPU for refresh it's longer but then again if you used something else it >still has to be done and takes some about of time/logic. > > >The same can be done with the Z80 (the cmos parts it can be very effective). >I've used that trick to get a M1 read/ that has the same length as Mread/. > > >I always get upset with this term as it's hard to quantitize unless standard >programs (sieve, fp-ops...) > >Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 11 19:31:21 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <004b01be847b$ca24b640$0100c0a8@fuj03> You can build your own in an FPGA for something on the order of 2500 gates. That will ostensibly operate at 80 MHz or so. Some vendors make claims about their silicon that sport higher speed claims, e.g. 150-200 MHz. I'll believe the 80 is realistic. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 4:36 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) > >I was pointing out that is the processor was running fast enough even a >dog can look good. ;) Obviously using a 8mhz z80 as the standard your >comparison CPU had better be of similar generational speed or it may fail >the test. the inverse is with a 33mhz z185 I know I can blow the 65c02 >out of the water unless someone has at least a 25-30mhz 6502! > >Allison > From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Apr 11 19:35:26 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <004001be847b$463561e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 11, 99 06:27:07 pm Message-ID: <199904120035.RAA10480@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 535 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990411/87e5a871/attachment.ksh From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Apr 11 19:41:23 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: PR1ME 2550 Up and Running Message-ID: Well... it didn't hurt as much as I thought it was going to.. I have just run "SHUTDN ALL" after two hours of playing with PRIMOS (on a DEC LA120 running at 300 baud... s-l-o-w...). I rescued this system about two months ago, and finally got tired of it taking up space. It took about an hour to figure out where all the cables used to go, and the Control Data SMD drive [used as a paging and swapping drive] needed a little prodding to wake it up, but the system boots and remembers what it was doing last time it was on... about six years ago. Now to try and make the console port run at a decent speed. And, apropos of the Pick discussions, this machine has INFORMATION loaded and running... haven't messed with it yet, tho.. Cheers John From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Apr 11 19:56:09 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: Fwd: Metric conversions..?? Message-ID: <4.1.19990411203239.00adc4d0@206.231.8.2> Well folks, here's a break from the looong-running threads which have been rolling along the past couple of days. Saw this on one of the many other reflectors I subscribe to and I thought this group would appreciate the humor break too. The same 'Sorry about the bandwidth' apology stands from me too. :-) >Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:17:03 -0400 >Reply-To: MODSTEPH@ACS.EKU.EDU >Sender: Boat Anchor Owners and Collectors List > >From: N5AIT Allan Stephens >Subject: Metric conversions..?? >To: BOATANCHORS@LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV > > Well, it DOES include megacycles... Sorry about the bandwidth, but >figured if anyone would appreciate these, y'all would. > > 73, Al N5AIT > > >Here are some of the rarer metric conversions not carried in standard >reference works: > >1 million microphones = 1 megaphone >1 million bicycles = 2 megacycles >500 millinaries = 1 seminary >10 cards = 1 decacards >1/2 lavatory = 1 demijohn >1 millionth of a fish = 1 microfiche >453.6 graham crackers = 1 pound cake >1 trillion pins = 1 terrapin >1 million billion piccolos = 1 gigolo >10 rations = 1 decoration >100 rations = 1 C-ration >10 millipedes = 1 centipede >3 1/3 tridents = 1 decadent >10 monologues = 5 dialogues >5 dialogues = 1 decalogue >2 monograms = 1 diagram >8 nickels = 2 paradigms >2 wharves = 1 paradox > >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- >To subscribe: listserv@listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: subscribe BOATANCHORS yourfirstname yourlastname >To unsubscribe: listserv@listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: signoff BOATANCHORS >Archives for BOATANCHORS: http://www.tempe.gov/archives >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Sorry to a few of the list members who are not native English speakers. There are a few strange colloquial or American expressions. Ask in private email. However, even I am not sure what a "demijohn" really is except for perhaps a 1/2 bath in a house. Have fun! Regards, Chris PS: A "boatanchor", for the ones who are not amateurs or radio collectors or otherwise in-the-know, is an affectionate label attached by us to any large, heavy vacuum tube (valve) operated radio receiver or transmitter or sometimes test equipment. I have about a dozen boatanchors (50-100+ lbs) in my collection and, by golly, I was really sore after hauling them over here to the new house ;) From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Apr 11 10:24:59 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: PR1ME 2550 Up and Running Message-ID: <199904120057.RAA01809@mxu2.u.washington.edu> ---------- > From: John Lawson > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: PR1ME 2550 Up and Running > Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 10:11 > > > > Well... it didn't hurt as much as I thought it was going to.. > > I have just run "SHUTDN ALL" after two hours of playing with PRIMOS > (on a DEC LA120 running at 300 baud... s-l-o-w...). My first encounter with VMS was on a Vax 6310 using a Decwriter II at 300 baud. :^) > I rescued this system about two months ago, and finally got tired > of it taking up space. Nice work, a Pr1me is on my want list too. Can you post a pic on web site somewhere? > And, apropos of the Pick discussions, this machine has INFORMATION > loaded and running... haven't messed with it yet, tho.. From rcini at email.msn.com Sun Apr 11 09:05:12 1999 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: source for foam filter material References: <199904102026.UAA24193@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <000201be847f$a6172400$66832599@office1> Larry: I like to use replacement air conditioning foam/filters. On my 11/34, I use A/C foam for in-the-window air conditioners as the front filter, and I use the pleated-style central A/C filter for the rack filter. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Sent: Saturday, April 10, 1999 4:26 PM Subject: source for foam filter material > Does anyone know where I might be able to buy some thin black foam filter > material, to replace the stuiff that was used on my Teral computers? > These systems have a large fan that draws air into the computer, and > the intake air goes through this very thin filter, in order to capture > large particles such as lint. > > After 22+ years, that foam is nothing more than dust. > > I would need something almost 5 inches wide, that i could then trim to > the proper shape. > > -Lawrence LeMay > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 11 20:23:49 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <002401be8483$1e8ea680$0100c0a8@fuj03> In all the time I was involved in the microcomputer industry, I never saw a single Commodore ad that wasn't printed in a trade publication of some sort. Most of those that I saw were German, though some I saw were in French or Italian, but I couldn't read them. That by itself indicates there wasn't much doing with them. I once read that they had a digital watch switch patent that made them more dough than all their computer-related activities combined. I didn't find that hard to believe. The way in which the Apple computer "won" the schools over was to donate a significant number to each school system with whom they thought they could do some business. Once they were on the Apple path, they were too short-sighted to see it would ultimately lead to much higher costs. For a number of years I served as a member of various committees at the middle school my sons attended. The impression I got was that there were darned few teachers and school administrators smart enough or experienced enough to realize that the "cheap" deal they were getting on their computers were all based on pricing when the products were newly entered in the market, and at maximal cost. Later on, they'd be paying double or triple what they could on the local economy. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 5:59 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) >::I don't think Commodore was a factor in this aspect of the process. The >::Commodore machines weren't "accessible" enough, in that there was no really >::convenient way to install the additional hardware people wanted, so nobody >::(well, almost) built it. > >I disagree very strongly with that statement (in a nice way :-). Apples >definitely had a nice selection of hardware add-ons, but there were also >C64 80-column cards (Batteries Included made some), hard drives (first the >Lt. Kernal, then the CMD series), RAM expansions (first the Commodore REUs >and then BBGRAM, RAMLink, geoRAM), modems (first Commodore VICMODEMS and >1600 series, then HesModem, Mighty Mo, etc.), printer interfaces (Cardco, >Xetec; even some Centronics ones) and accelerators (TurboMaster, Flash-8 >and SuperCPU). Many compared quite favourably with the Apple's assortment. >Moreover, the Commodore hardware has always been superbly documented -- >witness the Programmer's Reference Guides on all the major 8-bit Commodores >and even the minor ones like the 264 series (Plus/4, etc.). Granted, this >translated more into better designed software rather than expanded hardware, >but the 64 definitely had its fair share. > >::They couldn't afford a market clash with the Apple. They had a safe market >::in Europe, which didn't seem to suffer as badly from the video-toy-looking >::Apple as their U.S. market did. By the time all the goodies were installed, >::the Apple became a formidable presence to be reckoned with by nearly any >::computer maker. The Apples were unduly costly, but they exhibited an >::unprecedented breadth of applications with more variety of plug-in >::peripherals than even an S-100 box offered. > >But they didn't market-clash with the Apple except possibly in the education >market, which Apple soundly won (depending on whom you talk to, this is >either attributed to Apple's aggressiveness or Commodore's passivity). Apple >may have been trying for the home market at one stage, but they never made >any offerings that could be explicitly marked "home computer". The Apple IIs >were more business computers that happened to play some games, while (PETs >excepted) Commodore made home computers that happened to run some business >applications, IMHO. I've always perceived them operating in just about >separate worlds precisely *because* of the Apple's inclination towards >hardware expansion and the 64's towards software expansion (see the 64 demo >scene for an example of this), which breeds quick market separation because >any emergent applications will be totally differently focused. > >-- >-------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- >Cameron Kaiser Database Programmer/Administrative Computing >Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 >ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 >-- A dean is to faculty as a hydrant is to a dog. -- Alfred Kahn -------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 11 20:22:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: Fwd: Metric conversions..?? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990411203239.00adc4d0@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Apr 11, 99 08:56:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 292 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990412/184ee2d6/attachment.ksh From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Apr 11 20:40:16 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: Conversions etc. Message-ID: I may have posted this one before... 1 millihelen = the amount of beauty required to launch just one ship. 1 New York Second = the elapsed time between the light turning green and the guy behind you laying on his horn and screaming at you. The difference between Theory and Practice is much closer in theory than in preactice. "'Yields Falsehood' when appended to it's quotation" yields falsehood when appended to it's quotation. Okay, sorry. I'm just all happy 'cause my Pr1me booted.. Cheers John From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 11 20:40:12 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <002b01be8485$7aa4f3a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Well, if you look at the 6502 architecture very carefully, you'll see what a thing of beauty it really is. What the 8080 and Z-80 designers did with brute force, the 650x designers did with resourceful elegance. Instead of big counters and the like, for, say, the stack pointer or the program counter, the 650x needs only to use registers. The same ALU that is used in the execution of instructions is useable to increment the program counter, manipulate the stack pointer, etc. The part can be built with extremely little in the way of resources. I once sat down with a pencil and figured out that you could build the content of the 6502 with a pair of 74181's, a pair of 74189's four '373's a couple of decoders, a small PAL and a 256x12 rom (3 82S129's) That was all available in '75 or so, with the possible exception of the PALand the 373's. That is not very much logic. That was possibly what they used to prototype their part. Think about it! It's really simple and you could easily build it as part of a gate array. Try that with a Z-80 and see what you get. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 6:08 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) ><"cleaner" in some ways. However... > >it has to be as there are so few register to store intermediate results or >addresses. The end result is operands are out in memory more and return to >memory more. Different optimization of resources. > > >the oder of learning for me was PDP-8, PDP-10, CM2100, 8008, 8080 then >over a span of 6 years. From the 1975 to 1978 the list is z80, 8048, > 1802, sc/mp, 6800, 650x, 9900, pdp-11! > >I have fewer biases. ;) Well ok, if said 8085 for some, 804x for others, >T-11 (pdp-11 on a single chip), and z80. Never had more than the few 6502s >until recently but they are fun too. > >Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 11 20:51:28 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <003401be8486$fb509940$0100c0a8@fuj03> Well, that was a surprise! I doubt it was around in time to do any good for the processor when it was used in home computers. It still lives in those video games, though. Thanks for the pointer! Now, if we could just find an adequate ANSI-C compiler which isn't wedded, through libraries or other objects, to one specific environment . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 6:39 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) >::Have YOU seen a 'C' compiler for any of the 6502 types? > >As a matter of fact, yes. :-) > > http://www.von-bassewitz.de/uz/cc65/ > >-- >-------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- >Cameron Kaiser Database Programmer/Administrative Computing >Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 >ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 >-- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm rethreading my toothbrush bristles." - From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Apr 11 20:50:13 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: Pick History Was: Re: PICK OS - I know it well... In-Reply-To: References: <010801be844e$98aad2c0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990411205844.00b04e90@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 06:57 PM 4/11/99 -0400, Max Eskin said something like: >On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Jay West wrote: >>I had no idea there was pick interest here. If someone wants a small writeup >>of the OS architecture and progression through history, I'd be happy to >>resurrect those brain cells :) > >Please, do. Right! Jay is apparently 'One of the Folks Who Was There' with development of Pick. This is a good example of having the history written down before it is lost/forgotten. I would like to see that writeup myself even though I had never run into Pick before today. Perhaps one of the folks here who have archival writeups like this stored on their website could keep it there (w/links for search engines) for us and others interested to use as research info. Anybody, whether they are part of the history like Jay is to Pick, or one of us who are collectors/historians/enthusiasts, should record the history of computing no matter how small some may think a particular subject is. Pick obviously is not too small as it has been said today that it was used in many platforms often for specific database-applied OEM systems. It is all part of the total history of computing which we as collectors should maintain. I know for sure a lot of radio history has been lost. Now's our chance to not let that happen with computing. Example: Although not computer-specific but related to radio history, it has the same meaning. Back in 1986 for Jamestown's Centennial Celebration, I presented a large display of broadcast radio receivers whose wooden cabinets were known to be made by factories in Jamestown. Jamestown was known to be the most significant USA city in the first half of the century as far as furniture manufacturing was concerned. My display highlighted this. 46 or 47 different companies up until 1940. Anyway, an elderly gentleman called me one day and announced he had worked in one of the larger factories in the mid-1920's and recognized those particular radios (they were several models of RCA Radiolas). He went on to describe others, both in my collection or which I knew well, plus list a bunch of radio manufacturers who bought cabinets from his company, Jamestown Mantel Works, of which I had not known to be the case. I thought then, if I could get the time, I should get more info for the local historical society and AWA as the guy recalled a lot and had much to say that was interesting. But life got in the way big time for me and I neglected to do it. Now, he is probably not with us anymore and that info is lost. Damn. I still kick myself for simply not borrowing some sort of tape recorder from somebody, going over to his house and just chatting. Here was one of the last of the folks who had worked at the factories directly related to cabinet-making of which little to date has ever been researched and written. Most of the computer pioneers are still alive today or at least their colleagues/families/companies/collectors/etc. have info which should be recorded if not already. I said this before, and it sounds like I'm preaching, but if you have the chance to record/write about/collect/rescue history of computing, do it without hesitation. I lost a little bit of radio history I was in the position to record some and blew it. Now I understand I will probably be on the small local radio station with my good friend who is on a radio program called "The Time of Our Lives" to talk a little about Jamestown's part in old radios as that station is celebrating its 75th anniversary. Boy, have I got to do some research at that local historical society now because I lost out on some info back in '86. That's even IF they have records from the factories I know that made radio cabinets. Don't let that happen to you! :-) Soapbox-mode off now. Thanks for reading. --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Apr 11 20:58:31 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: Fwd: Metric conversions..?? In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990411203239.00adc4d0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19990411215640.00affad0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 02:22 AM 4/12/99 +0100, Tony Duell said something like: >> >1 million microphones = 1 megaphone > >Err... Haven't you dropped 6 orders of magnitude here? > >Either : > >1 million microphones = 1 phone >or > >10^12 microphones = 1 megaphone > >:-) Good catch Tony. At least *you* are awake over there! :-) I'm not here, nor was the original poster in the boatanchors list. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Apr 11 20:51:34 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: IBM diagnostic cassette Message-ID: <3a94690d.2442aba6@aol.com> picked up two neat items at the hamfest today. the first was two clean amiga 500s and a IBM diagnostic cassette ver 1.02 with a part number 6081562. looks like it only has 5 minutes of tape on it. i presume its only for the 5150. how would one run this tape? From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Apr 12 00:02:05 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: IBM diagnostic cassette Message-ID: <01be84a1$9c186c80$bc8ea6d1@the-general> There's probably a BASIC program on it that would be loaded from ROM BASIC. What the name of it would be, I have no idea. Try "DIGS.BAS", or maybe "TEST.BAS". -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 7:01 PM Subject: IBM diagnostic cassette >picked up two neat items at the hamfest today. the first was two clean amiga >500s and a IBM diagnostic cassette ver 1.02 with a part number 6081562. looks >like it only has 5 minutes of tape on it. i presume its only for the 5150. >how would one run this tape? > From at258 at osfn.org Sun Apr 11 21:26:43 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The implied warrantee of merchantability exists here, too, but that and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee. Never seemed to bother Beelzebub or Gates. Oh, i just repeated myself, didn't I? On Mon, 12 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > Incidentally, AFAIK (IANAL) in the UK a product must be 'of merchantable > quality' - it must work, for example. That can't be altered by anyone > pulling the case. So OK, if I do open it up, they needn't fix it if it > breaks in 2 months time, but if it doesn't work when new they still ahve > to replace it. From jlwest at tseinc.com Sun Apr 11 21:39:00 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: More Pick info (was Prime 2250) Message-ID: <004601be848d$9ffd8600$0101a8c0@jay> Prime Infomation was certainly a pick variant - I spent a lot of time (about 7 years) on Prime's and Prime Information at AB. When pick first came out, is was what we called "vanilla" which meant that the machine booted pick - there was no other operating system. Later other manufacturers (licensees of pick systems) decided to strip out the monitor and missionary/native code architecture, and gut everything that was OSlike rather than RDBMSlike. They then put the remnants on top of some other operating system (layered rather than vanilla). Unix was common, as was DOS, Windows, PRIMOS, etc. To answer someone elses question, BASIC was the programming language (you had no choice). There was also PROC which was not that much more than batch files in DOS. Then there was the assembler. The assembler verb definition was removed from many later versions but you could define a pointer into the ABS area to call it up. BASIC was compiled into DCD or Pcode, and the result was run interpretively. The DCD/Pcode was rather elegant - it implemented a stack architecture to speed code generation and execution in RPN. At the end of each BASIC statements resulting code the state machine was completely back to its initial value. In a certain sense, each basic statement resulted in a separate DCD/Pcode subroutine that was reentrant as the symbol table and variable allocations were made out of the users workspace. All the Pick variations handle file I/O the same - I've never seen any programming language even close to pick basic in the elegance of the file/record interface. The assembler was virtual, in that the instruction set really didn't exist on any machine. So - assembly was a 3 pass process. First, the Pick assembler turned your assembler file into "virtual machine code". Then a BASIC program turned the virtual machine code into an assembler program in the native assembly language of the cpu it was running on. Finally the native assembler was run to generate executable object code. Somewhere I still have some listings where you can see the same program turn into 68000 assembler and then compile on a different machine and see each instruction turn into 8080 assembler. Nifty AND educational :) I forget if prime information was created by ex Vmark engineers, or if Universe was created by ex Prime engineers - one way or the other ;) I have to admit, next to freeBSD, Primos is a really nice OS IMHO. ISTR that the baud rates for the AMLC lines (serial cards) were controlled via the AMLC.COMI file, located on the system volume ( AMLC.COMI or AMLC.COMI). This was a command input file which set the line characteristics. Can't recall if the console speed was set there, but the other serial lines were. I have a complete Primos and Prime Information manual set at the office. I'll check how to set the console speed for you. If you have no docs and are playing with the primos machine, just remember, it's "A " rather than "cd ", and "ED" rather than "vi" oh - emacs was VERY common on primos, so that might be there as well for you to use. One final note - I do NOT want to represent that I wrote the Pick operating system, or that I was on the original development team. Dick Pick and Chandru Murthi would just scream if I said I was. Pick was developed in the late 60's by those two under a government project for maintaining the data on a helicopter project. The original name (according to the US Government) for the Pick OS was G.I.R.L.S. (Generalized Information Retrieval Language). No Kidding. So - I didn't invent it, I was merely a freelance consultant who worked on modifications and enhancements to the virtual code and monitor code in the Pick OS for some of the pick licensees. Cheers! Jay West -----Original Message----- From: John Lawson To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 7:43 PM Subject: PR1ME 2550 Up and Running > > > Well... it didn't hurt as much as I thought it was going to.. > >I have just run "SHUTDN ALL" after two hours of playing with PRIMOS >(on a DEC LA120 running at 300 baud... s-l-o-w...). > > I rescued this system about two months ago, and finally got tired >of it taking up space. It took about an hour to figure out where all >the cables used to go, and the Control Data SMD drive [used as a >paging and swapping drive] needed a little prodding to wake it up, >but the system boots and remembers what it was doing last time it was >on... about six years ago. > > Now to try and make the console port run at a decent speed. > > And, apropos of the Pick discussions, this machine has INFORMATION >loaded and running... haven't messed with it yet, tho.. > > > Cheers > >John > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 11 21:51:52 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <199904120251.AA22073@world.std.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, thanks for the amplifying infor re: PICK. The system I rescued came complete with docs and backup software. It was meticulously maintained while in service and decomissioned the way *all* vintage systems should be, ie. everything marked and packed in boxes, covered in plastic, etc. So I do have the docs.. I just haven't plowed down to that part of it yet. Fortunately the previous owner has made himself available for 'consultation'. When I called him this evening to tell him his old system had returned from the Sleep of Scrap, I mentioned the slowness of the console port. He said that, while the actual *console* baud rate could be sped up, that the CPU apparently polls that port at some multiple of baudclock, and that faster port = slower machine. He said what you mentioned, that the console was for booting and error logging, and that Administration was better off accomplished on one of the AMLC ports, which will go 9600 at least. I haven't hooked up any of the terminal lines yet.. I just wanted to so if it would still boot.. and so it does. Thanks for your help, BTW! Cheerz John From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 11 22:47:59 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <000a01be8497$543462c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> please have a look at my emmbedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 9:22 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) > >Since I use z80s and kin often the data sheets for the z80 (all dozen or so) >starting with the 1977 ones are at hand. It helps that in my history is >applications engineering time at NEC microcomputers (they sold the uPD780 >a z80). > ><4mhz (shorter for M1 cycle)" is ABSOLUTELY correct. However, it took thre >Don't ignore the fact that there are such thing as propagation delays >internal to the chip in the 50-80nS range or that some edges chaged on >the rising edge and some on the falling ones. I didn't want to descend into the gate-level details of the CPU, but merely to count clocks for comparison's sake. > >There are many schools of thought. the PDP-8 is and the 6502 have the >sparse hardware idea in common. the z80 is really a CISC machine and >reflects the more complex instruction set and the 8080 history. > >< > >I don't feel that is a right way to say it. I'd go with... The mos >technology people with a limited silicone real estate (silicon costs alot >then) fewer register and a instruction set biased to use memory more. >That heritage comes from the 6800 which is a more similar part. > > >they werent! Not significantly. in most cases the time to actually execute >isn't that much different. Well . . . I'd say it is significant, in view of the fact a Z-80 took three clock ticks to access memory while a 6502 took only one. As I've said in previous posts, the comparison at the memory bandwidth level came out in favor of the Z-80 because it had a BETTER BASIC interpreter. If you compare the fastest commercially available Z-80 with the fastest commercially available 6502, the 6502 will win by a wide margin EVERY time. Compare the Z80H (1983 or so) with the Synertek SYC6502C (1979) and you'll see that the 8 MHz Z-80 can't be counted on to win the race. If you like, you can compare the 8 MHz Z-80H with the Rockwell 65C102, which takes a 4x clock. Now it takes 4 clock ticks at 16 MHz to execute a bus cycle of any type. Feed it an 8 MHz clock, it will still outdistance the Z-80H. > >The idea of zero page was straight from PDP-8 too. The zero page was a way >to solve the problem of too few registers. The TI9900 took an entirely >different path to solve that problem. > >Which problem? Silicon real estate. registers are memory and that memory >eats silicon. back in that time frame you had some hard choices a with >regard to that. The Z80 was somewhat remarkable as there were 208 bits of >storage inside the processor for just user programable registers and bits. > > >In 1979 I had several tubes of 85nS 4kx1 rams that made a dandy memory. >They were static. I still have some of them. then in 1980 I got some slow >static 16kx1s that were only 70nS (2167) and built a z80 system that pushed >a 6mhz part to 7mhz. fast rams were available. I remember what it was like trying to get delivery on 2147's back in '81. I did manage to get the 55 ns parts for my 6502 based system. The bottom 16K allowed the processor to run a 4 MHz, while the rest caused it to slow to 1 MHz. Since the assembler lived in the bottom 8K, and the editor we used right above it, the combination was pretty fast. I eventually filled the whole lower 48K with the fast SRAMS, as we had a card designed for the TMS4044, which was a slow 2147. >My NSbox had 2116s that were 300ns and only 32 filled the memory space >on one board. that was 1981. > > >Never. There could have been one but I'd wonder about code efficientcy. >Then again I've never seen one for 9900 bit that as CISC a machine if >there ever was one. Someone posted a small-c compiler for the 6502 as implemented in popular machines of the early '80's. That might be worth a look. What I want is a cross-compiler with a version for the PC as the target and one for the 6502. That way I can debug on the PC and transfer my code to the 6502. (Mitsubishi microcontrollers, actually) I recently bought a couple of single board dedicated boards, and found that they had the 4 MHz Rockwell CMOS parts on them. I didn't think I'd ever see something like that in the scrap box. Oh well, once I've figured out the memory map, they'll be useful for 1-of's. >Allison > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 11 22:55:30 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <004001be847b$463561e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Have YOU seen a 'C' compiler for any of the 6502 types? Aztec C for the Apple ][, for one. I'm sure there were others. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 11 22:58:47 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <001101be8498$c49a6220$0100c0a8@fuj03> This is gates, not macrocells. I imagine it could be done with just a CPLD, like one of the mid-sized ~384 macrocells including the steering logic and instruction sequencer. It only needs eight 8-bit registers including the impending operand register. -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 9:46 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) > >Gates or CPLDs? Big difference there. I do ahve a few 3030s here and can >get 4000 seris. But why would I do it. This would depend on the available resources. The Xylinx parts tend to come up short on routing resources. Last time (hopefully) I worked with the old 3000-series parts we were always having to cut and jumper our boards because the routing resources weren't there to preserve our pinout. I also found the 3000 series doesn't integrate well. It's best if you can partition a function to fit the FPGA. Sharing logic cells uses too many pins. It's easier and perhaps more efficient to replicate some functions versus sharing them from either the internals of one LCA or from a common external source. >then again I have an early 80s project that was a z80 built in 2901s... >at a time where a 10mhz z80 was an extreme machine. > >Allison > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 11 23:12:20 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: IBM diagnostic cassette In-Reply-To: <3a94690d.2442aba6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Apr 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > picked up two neat items at the hamfest today. the first was two clean amiga > 500s and a IBM diagnostic cassette ver 1.02 with a part number 6081562. looks > like it only has 5 minutes of tape on it. i presume its only for the 5150. > how would one run this tape? Put it in a cassette drive, connect it to the 5150's cassette port and do a cassette load from BASIC. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From donm at cts.com Sun Apr 11 22:43:57 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: 8080 - 4004 - 8051 Historical Software Source Site! (fwd) Message-ID: Forwarded for any that may be interested. - don ========================== Path: nusku.cts.com!mercury.cts.com!socal.verio.net!nntp.ni.net!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!feeder.qis.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!global-news-master From: "Steve J. Quest" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch.embedded,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,comp.emulators.misc,comp.lang.basic.misc,comp.os.cpm,comp.software-eng,comp.sources.wanted,comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.misc,sci.electronics.components Subject: 8080 - 4004 - 8051 Historical Software Source Site! Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: 10 Apr 1999 15:30:38 PDT Organization: AVR Technologies - Des Moines, Iowa, USA Lines: 75 Sender: Steve J. Quest Message-ID: <7eojee$ru@chronicle.concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mariner.concentric.net Summary: Archive for MCS-51(tm) software including BASIC-52 and BASIC-51 Keywords: MCS-51,80C52,8052,8051,Tiny BASIC,SOL,SOLOS,SOL BASIC,Altair 8800,MOS Kim-1,Kim-1 SBC,VIC-20,Sinclair ZX-80,Sinclair ZX81,MONITOR,MCS-51 MONITOR,MONITOR-DEBUGGER,BASIC CODE,8051 MONITOR X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA 970930; sun4m SunOS 4.1.3_U1] Xref: nusku.cts.com alt.folklore.computers:5704 comp.arch.embedded:5952 alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt:7730 comp.emulators.misc:2024 comp.lang.basic.misc:1906 comp.os.cpm:749 comp.software-eng:2694 comp.sources.wanted:166 comp.sys.intel:3530 comp.sys.misc:133 sci.electronics.components:3996 ______________________________________________________________________ Steve J. Quest Presents: The Code Archive! Now software for 8080 - 4004 - 8051 Tiny BASIC! http://www.code.archive.aisnota.com/ ______________________________________________________________________ XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXXXXXX XXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXX 4 000 000 4 44 0 0 0 0 44 4 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 4 4444444 0 0 0 0 0 0 4444444 4 0 0 0 0 4 4 000 000 4 4004 MICROPROCESSOR http://www.code.archive.aisnota.com/index.shtml#i4004.zip -------------------------------------------------------------- 88888 000 88888 000 8 8 0 0 8 8 0 0 8 8 0 0 0 8 8 0 0 0 88888 0 0 0 88888 0 0 0 8 8 0 0 0 8 8 0 0 0 8 8 0 0 8 8 0 0 88888 000 88888 000 8080 MICROPROCESSOR http://www.code.archive.aisnota.com/index.shtml#Poly88_TinyBASIC.zip -------------------------------------------------------------- 88888 000 5555555 1 8 8 0 0 5 11 8 8 0 0 0 5 1 88888 0 0 0 555555 1 8 8 0 0 0 5 1 8 8 0 0 5 1 88888 000 555555 111 8051/8751 Single-Chip MICROCOMPUTER http://www.code.archive.aisnota.com/index.shtml#tb51-32.bin.gz http://www.code.archive.aisnota.com/index.shtml#tb51-32.hex.gz -------------------------------------------------------------- -- -------\ ( ( | ) ) Amendment1 Congress shall make ===============================> /_\ no law abridging the freedom Pirate Shortwave Broadcasting-/ /\_/\ of speech, or of the press. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 11 23:11:29 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: Pick History Was: Re: PICK OS - I know it well... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990411205844.00b04e90@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > Right! Jay is apparently 'One of the Folks Who Was There' with development > of Pick. This is a good example of having the history written down before > it is lost/forgotten. I would like to see that writeup myself even though I > had never run into Pick before today. Perhaps one of the folks here who > have archival writeups like this stored on their website could keep it > there (w/links for search engines) for us and others interested to use as > research info. As long as its placed somewhere on a website I'll link to that site from the VCF links page. http://www.vintage.org/vcf > Anybody, whether they are part of the history like Jay is to Pick, or one > of us who are collectors/historians/enthusiasts, should record the history > of computing no matter how small some may think a particular subject is. This list will be a great resource to future historians. > It is all part of the total history of computing which we as collectors > should maintain. I know for sure a lot of radio history has been lost. > Now's our chance to not let that happen with computing. Here, here, good man. > I thought then, if I could get the time, I should get more info for the > local historical society and AWA as the guy recalled a lot and had much to > say that was interesting. But life got in the way big time for me and I > neglected to do it. Now, he is probably not with us anymore and that info > is lost. Damn. That's a good point. If you meet an old timer who was there, it behooves you to get that person's story down in writing. I'm doing just this when I take a trip to meet someone who used to work with Univacs in Salt Lake City next month. > Most of the computer pioneers are still alive today or at least their > colleagues/families/companies/collectors/etc. have info which should be > recorded if not already. I said this before, and it sounds like I'm > preaching, but if you have the chance to record/write about/collect/rescue > history of computing, do it without hesitation. This is part of the mission of the Vintage Computer Festival. > I lost a little bit of radio history I was in the position to record some > and blew it. Now I understand I will probably be on the small local radio > station with my good friend who is on a radio program called "The Time of > Our Lives" to talk a little about Jamestown's part in old radios as that > station is celebrating its 75th anniversary. Boy, have I got to do some > research at that local historical society now because I lost out on some > info back in '86. That's even IF they have records from the factories I > know that made radio cabinets. Don't let that happen to you! :-) It might be worthwhile to see if this old guy is still kicking around. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 12 05:56:58 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: Fwd: H8 Enthusiasts In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990411153546.00af25f0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <199904120857.KAA14312@horus.mch.sni.de> > I know a few of you have been looking for these items (Hans F.! Are you > reading this now?) so have at it! :-) Seems to be just an H-10 manual, not > the unit itself though :( Just back from Warschau (Poland) - Thanks. And BTW: since Karfreitag (Easter Friday sp?) I'm a proud owner of a H8 - I went to Swizerland with an empty car an came back with some kind of a wight problem, including an H8 and an Compupro 286 (an S100 286 wit 4 Z80), just to find aout that I had no Swiss power adaptor at hand (thy use a different connector)... Servus Hans -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jruschme at exit109.com Mon Apr 12 06:40:07 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: PCMCIA In-Reply-To: <004e01be83d7$646fac00$0100c0a8@fuj03> from Richard Erlacher at "Apr 10, 99 10:54:33 pm" Message-ID: <199904121140.HAA09624@crobin.home.org> I will... thanks... I posted here intially figuring that between the dealers like Russ and the people who hit the surplus market, etc., there was likely to be someone with an extra copy of the generic CardSoft/CardWare drivers. My apologies to any I offended. <<>> > There are a couple of newsgroups dedicated to PCMCIA which might be of some > help. > > Take a look! Ask! > > -----Original Message----- > Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 6:52 PM > Subject: PCMCIA > > >This is possibly too new for this list, so please excuse me if I offend > >anyone... > > > >I was wondering if any of you might have a copy of PCMICA drivers, such as > >might have been shipped with a modem or other card? > > > >I'm in the process of resurrecting my NCR Safari, but the only drivers > >that came with it are a simple memory card driver/formatter. From vischer at access.ch Mon Apr 12 06:39:45 1999 From: vischer at access.ch (vischer@access.ch) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: Victor 80286 (Lap-Top) Message-ID: <3711DB81.DB977263@access.ch> I saw that one; anyone knows anything about it? Victor 80286 (Lap-Top) please mail me privately Thanks! Simon From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 12 08:41:18 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: Several things In-Reply-To: <8025674D.0061B67B.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <199904121142.NAA08326@horus.mch.sni.de> > ABS. > ==== > To try and keep this on topic, how did Ferguson do ABS in the early 1970s? I > don't believe they would have used a microprocessor. I'd guess at an analogue > computer, probably not even electronic. Would this be less frightening to Tony? AFAIR in the beginning, when BOSCH started out with their first ABS controll systems in _diskrete_ electronics, there was also anoter concourent system as used by OPEL (GM) working completly on mechanics (I can't recall the manufacturer/developer, maybe it was done by Opel itself). The price was less than 50% of the BOSCH system - but in the mid 80's OPEL eventualy also jumped on the electronic band wagon. THere have been some sevire faults with the mechanical system - and the usage was limited. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From steverob at hotoffice.com Mon Apr 12 08:16:37 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: PR1ME 2550 Up and Running Message-ID: <01BE84C5.2B159110.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > Well... it didn't hurt as much as I thought it was going to.. > > I have just run "SHUTDN ALL" after two hours of playing with PRIMOS > (on a DEC LA120 running at 300 baud... s-l-o-w...). > > I rescued this system about two months ago, and finally got tired > of it taking up space. It took about an hour to figure out where all > the cables used to go, and the Control Data SMD drive [used as a > paging and swapping drive] needed a little prodding to wake it up, > but the system boots and remembers what it was doing last time it was > on... about six years ago. > > Now to try and make the console port run at a decent speed. > > And, apropos of the Pick discussions, this machine has INFORMATION > loaded and running... haven't messed with it yet, tho.. > > > Cheers > > John John, The 2550 is a neat little minicomputer. I have one but, it has a bad processor card so, I've never actually got it to boot. Sooner or later, I'll find a replacement card for it. IIRC, I was able to connect a dumb terminal to the console port at 2400 baud. I was able to talk to the diagnostics processor and run the startup sequence at this speed. There's probably a configuration setting for this but, I don't know what it is. I have a fairly complete set of DOCs for the machine (as a matter of fact, most of them are still in the shrink wrap). I'll be happy to share them if you are missing any volumes. If you have any specific questions, I'll try to look them up for you. The "2550 Operators Manual" will probably be the most useful at this point. It has the basic system operation and getting started guide. Do you have this DOC? Steve Robertson - From steverob at hotoffice.com Mon Apr 12 08:18:27 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: PICK OS - I know it well... Message-ID: <01BE84C5.6CB493F0.steverob@hotoffice.com> > I had no idea there was pick interest here. If someone wants a small writeup > of the OS architecture and progression through history, I'd be happy to > resurrect those brain cells :) > This is a lot more on topic than many recent posts. Please enlighten us! Steve Robertson - From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 12 08:51:36 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <000a01be8497$543462c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: > I didn't want to descend into the gate-level details of the CPU, but merely > to count clocks for comparison's sake. Since the clocks are applied in such a different fashion the comparison is meaningless. > clock ticks to access memory while a 6502 took only one. As I've said in > previous posts, the comparison at the memory bandwidth level came out in Meaningless unless that is a particular requirement of an application HARDWARE. > the fastest commercially available Z-80 with the fastest commercially > available 6502, the 6502 will win by a wide margin EVERY time. Compare the > Z80H (1983 or so) with the Synertek SYC6502C (1979) and you'll see that > 8 MHz Z-80 can't be counted on to win the race. If you like, you can Your dreaming again. Seriously weve beat the dead horse and it's time to quit. The 6502 is a good cpu but the comparisons are getting silly. If you really want to compare archectecture I'll take the T-11 (PDP-11 on a 40 pin dip) @7.5mHZ and blow the both out of the water. here a part from The same era that has all the addressing modes of the 68k and then some and can use memory like the 6502 or z80 with its registers. Things like position independent code, relative addressing and two address structure are all there. the problem is the arguement is specious as I can also use the CMOS PDP-8 part to put up as good a battle of who wins. And getting a PDP-8 into a FPGA has been done as well. > compare the 8 MHz Z-80H with the Rockwell 65C102, which takes a 4x clock. > Now it takes 4 clock ticks at 16 MHz to execute a bus cycle of any type. > Feed it an 8 MHz clock, it will still outdistance the Z-80H. YEs and the z180S part takes a 33mhz clock, whats the point? CLOCKS and counting them is meaningless unless they mean something comparable. > I remember what it was like trying to get delivery on 2147's back in '81. I There were peole sellign 4kx1 22pinparts at near firesale prices compared to 2147 and were near 65ns. They were of the pseudo static three voltage generation but the y were cheap. > machines of the early '80's. That might be worth a look. What I want is a Smallc had limited optimization. I've used it for other cpus and it's fat. I would ahve guessed that was ported to near everything but it's not a production compiler though I guess it could be used as one. > I recently bought a couple of single board dedicated boards, and found that > they had the 4 MHz Rockwell CMOS parts on them. I didn't think I'd ever see > something like that in the scrap box. Oh well, once I've figured out the > memory map, they'll be useful for 1-of's. I have 4 or 5 board from telvideo 905/955 terminals and they have 65C02s from rockwell on them. I also have a trackstar 128 (APPLE II for PC) that has two 65C02s. Allison > > >Allison > > > From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Apr 12 08:58:39 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: More Pick info (was Prime 2250) In-Reply-To: <004601be848d$9ffd8600$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Apr 11, 99 09:39:00 pm Message-ID: <199904121358.GAA06068@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 637 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990412/f21d1f32/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 12 09:27:01 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: Don Lancaster was Re: Ebay Mark-8 Plans In-Reply-To: <199904101232.IAA02610@chmls06.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990412092701.00caec60@vpwisfirewall> At 08:32 AM 4/10/99 -0400, Jon wrote: > >By the way does the VCF pay the speakers? Or their travel? VCF has a generous travel fund, fueled by Intel, Paul Allen, and auctions of antique computer wiring harnesses on eBay. In fact, any member of this mailing list is eligible for grants of up to $1,500 for travel and lodging purposes, if you wish to attend. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 12 09:26:21 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: C for 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <004001be847b$463561e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990412092621.00ed6800@vpwisfirewall> At 08:55 PM 4/11/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Have YOU seen a 'C' compiler for any of the 6502 types? > >Aztec C for the Apple ][, for one. I'm sure there were others. I remember buying a C compiler for my Commodore 64 in '83 or so, made by a student at a university in Waterloo, Ontario. My brain is strained to remember the name, though. Aztec C was a popular compiler for the Amiga, too. Wondering what happened to the primary programmer there, who I knew quite well in the Amiga heyday, I found his web page at . Presto, he's still selling a C compiler for the 65816. He was once involved with the post-Amiga VISCorp set-top effort, and previously unknown to me, was at Bell Labs Murray Hill in '77-79, and wrote a Unix disk driver for the port to the PDP-11/34, and a tiny C for the KIM-1 and Apple II. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 12 09:29:30 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: Old Nicolet boxes... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990412092930.00edb100@vpwisfirewall> In penance to Sam for opening the floodgates to the previously secret VCF travel fund, I reveal a link to someone at Nicolet who seems willing to talk about their line of computers. - John >From: Mike Lennon >To: "'John Foust'" >Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:34:19 -0500 >Subject: RE: Old Nicolet boxes... > >I did a fair amount of engineering on the 1280 and it's operating >system. Feel free to contact me with any questions you may have. > >Mike Lennon From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Apr 12 09:45:36 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: C for 6502 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990412092621.00ed6800@vpwisfirewall> from "John Foust" at Apr 12, 99 09:26:21 am Message-ID: <199904121445.HAA08676@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 630 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990412/466bde0e/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 12 09:43:40 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <002a01be84f2$e49e8a60$0100c0a8@fuj03> You're certain right . . . it is a dead horse . . . killed by the insistence that 750 ns < 250 ns. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 7:59 AM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) >> I didn't want to descend into the gate-level details of the CPU, but merely >> to count clocks for comparison's sake. > >Since the clocks are applied in such a different fashion the comparison is >meaningless. > >> clock ticks to access memory while a 6502 took only one. As I've said in >> previous posts, the comparison at the memory bandwidth level came out in > >Meaningless unless that is a particular requirement of an application >HARDWARE. > >> the fastest commercially available Z-80 with the fastest commercially >> available 6502, the 6502 will win by a wide margin EVERY time. Compare the >> Z80H (1983 or so) with the Synertek SYC6502C (1979) and you'll see that >> 8 MHz Z-80 can't be counted on to win the race. If you like, you can > >Your dreaming again. Seriously weve beat the dead horse and it's time to >quit. The 6502 is a good cpu but the comparisons are getting silly. > >If you really want to compare archectecture I'll take the T-11 (PDP-11 on >a 40 pin dip) @7.5mHZ and blow the both out of the water. here a part >from The same era that has all the addressing modes of the 68k and then >some and can use memory like the 6502 or z80 with its registers. Things >like position independent code, relative addressing and two address >structure are all there. the problem is the arguement is specious as I >can also use the CMOS PDP-8 part to put up as good a battle of who wins. >And getting a PDP-8 into a FPGA has been done as well. > >> compare the 8 MHz Z-80H with the Rockwell 65C102, which takes a 4x clock. >> Now it takes 4 clock ticks at 16 MHz to execute a bus cycle of any type. >> Feed it an 8 MHz clock, it will still outdistance the Z-80H. > >YEs and the z180S part takes a 33mhz clock, whats the point? CLOCKS and >counting them is meaningless unless they mean something comparable. > >> I remember what it was like trying to get delivery on 2147's back in >'81. I > >There were peole sellign 4kx1 22pinparts at near firesale prices compared >to 2147 and were near 65ns. They were of the pseudo static three voltage >generation but the y were cheap. > >> machines of the early '80's. That might be worth a look. What I want is a > >Smallc had limited optimization. I've used it for other cpus and it's fat. >I would ahve guessed that was ported to near everything but it's not a >production compiler though I guess it could be used as one. > >> I recently bought a couple of single board dedicated boards, and found that >> they had the 4 MHz Rockwell CMOS parts on them. I didn't think I'd ever see >> something like that in the scrap box. Oh well, once I've figured out the >> memory map, they'll be useful for 1-of's. > >I have 4 or 5 board from telvideo 905/955 terminals and they have 65C02s >from rockwell on them. I also have a trackstar 128 (APPLE II for PC) that >has two 65C02s. > > >Allison > > > >> >> >Allison >> > >> > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 12 11:48:49 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: C for 6502 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990412092621.00ed6800@vpwisfirewall> References: Message-ID: <199904121449.QAA05455@horus.mch.sni.de> > Presto, he's still selling a C compiler for the 65816. He was once > involved with the post-Amiga VISCorp set-top effort, and previously > unknown to me, was at Bell Labs Murray Hill in '77-79, and wrote a > Unix disk driver for the port to the PDP-11/34, and a tiny C for > the KIM-1 and Apple II. For the KIM ? I must have passed that one - any online source ? Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 12 11:48:49 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: Don Lancaster was Re: Ebay Mark-8 Plans In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990412092701.00caec60@vpwisfirewall> References: <199904101232.IAA02610@chmls06.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <199904121449.QAA05458@horus.mch.sni.de> > >By the way does the VCF pay the speakers? Or their travel? > VCF has a generous travel fund, fueled by Intel, Paul Allen, and > auctions of antique computer wiring harnesses on eBay. In fact, > any member of this mailing list is eligible for grants of up to > $1,500 for travel and lodging purposes, if you wish to attend. Ooop - more news ? John, thats great - I'll go for that - and BTW, pleas send me another ticket for my mother - she likes to see the USA for free ;) (If the speaker part is a must, she will attend - and if 'hello' is enough, we can put her up on the speaker list (serious, a speach about how mothers see the collecting part might be interesting after all .)) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Apr 12 09:54:11 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: C for 6502 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990412092621.00ed6800@vpwisfirewall> References: Message-ID: <199904121451.JAA30590@trailingedge.com> On 12 Apr 99, at 9:26, John Foust wrote: > the Amiga heyday, I found his web page at . > > Presto, he's still selling a C compiler for the 65816. He was once And at a $1000?!?! I'll stick with the Orca C. Deep Blue C was sold by Atari in the APX program. There were also several small C compilers for the Atari 800 systems. You can download many from Atari ftp sites. On my Apple II, besides the Aztec C, I had a small C compiler which ran under the Apple UCSD system. There were others that I don't recall at the moment. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 12 09:56:27 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: C for 6502 In-Reply-To: <199904121451.JAA30590@trailingedge.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19990412092621.00ed6800@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990412095627.00df9e00@vpwisfirewall> At 09:54 AM 4/12/99 -0500, David Williams wrote: >> >> Presto, he's still selling a C compiler for the 65816. He was once > >And at a $1000?!?! I'll stick with the Orca C. If you read the lines, and between the lines, it's clear he's making tools for the Super Nintendo and Sega Genesis developer market. - John From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Apr 12 10:20:56 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:04 2005 Subject: C for 6502 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990412095627.00df9e00@vpwisfirewall> References: <199904121451.JAA30590@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <199904121517.KAA30775@trailingedge.com> On 12 Apr 99, at 9:56, John Foust wrote: > If you read the lines, and between the lines, it's clear he's making > tools for the Super Nintendo and Sega Genesis developer market. Yes, I gathered that. But even there, due to the current lack of market for those systems, you can pick up compilers for less. There were programmers using the Orca C compiler on an Apple IIgs to generate code for the Super Nintendo. I'm sure he'll drop it, lower the price or build one for one of the other systems soon though as it looked like a nice compiler. Maybe DreamCast or PSX2. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Apr 12 10:28:37 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: C for 6502 In-Reply-To: <199904121517.KAA30775@trailingedge.com> from "David Williams" at Apr 12, 99 10:20:56 am Message-ID: <199904121528.IAA10954@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 662 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990412/24826adc/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Apr 12 10:29:42 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Don Lancaster was Re: Ebay Mark-8 Plans Message-ID: <27e91c06.24436b66@aol.com> In a message dated 12/04/99 10:29:53 Eastern Daylight Time, jfoust@threedee.com writes: << VCF has a generous travel fund, fueled by Intel, Paul Allen, and auctions of antique computer wiring harnesses on eBay. In fact, any member of this mailing list is eligible for grants of up to $1,500 for travel and lodging purposes, if you wish to attend. >> hmmm,. i'd love to go. how does one take advantage of this? From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Apr 12 10:41:13 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: C for 6502 In-Reply-To: <199904121528.IAA10954@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <199904121517.KAA30775@trailingedge.com> from "David Williams" at Apr 12, 99 10:20:56 am Message-ID: <199904121538.KAA30898@trailingedge.com> On 12 Apr 99, at 8:28, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Does the Genesis have an '816 in it too? No, it used a 68K for the main processor. I believe it used a Z-80 as a secondary as well IIRC. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 12 12:46:03 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <199904051622.JAA21632@saul2.u.washington.edu> References: <37072B2C.E948F962@joules.enterprise-plc.com> from "Peter Joules" at Apr 4, 99 10:04:44 am Message-ID: <199904121547.RAA11736@horus.mch.sni.de> > > > (Other old computer languages still in use are FORTRAN and COBOL, but I don't > > > think the reasons for using them are so good.) > > I used to think that COBOL was old hat unitl I actually had to use it > > for a project during my degree. I was very impressed with its simmple > > syntax and easy data handling, but I haven't come across a better > > database handling language than another one which I had to use at > > University - RPG, it is just a pity that OS/400 is so cryptic ;-) > I was going to mention RPG in my original post but I changed my mind. I > don't think it's quite as old as COBOL and FORTRAN. I'll go in with a barrel of bavarian beer, that COBOL is still in use 30 years from now (I would also go for 50 years, but chances are low that I can claim my fortune :). > Some of IBM's development environments are called "VisualAge". There is a > VisualAge Smalltalk and a VisualAge Java (written in VisualAge Smalltalk :)). > Well, there's also a VisualAge RPG. I find that quite ironic considering > the utter opacity of RPG. RPG, is a nice language, and with VisualAge/RPG, there is an environment without any question. > As for OS/400, all you have to do is use the ELMCRPF command... Eliminate > Cryptic Features. What? You can't find it? Well, I don't have any other > suggestions then. :) Cryptic ? come on - nice, structured and logical - and BTW, no OS can be mastered without some time to learn the internals - some might offer fun wile learning (I still considere VMS the most cryptic one). Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 12 12:46:03 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Columne orientated programming (was: Hallelujah!) In-Reply-To: References: <199904051622.JAA21632@saul2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199904121547.RAA11739@horus.mch.sni.de> > Its funny because it's programmed much like the earlier versions of > ForTran, where each statement and associated arguments and data must start > in a particular column due to its origins as a punched card language. > I would hope the latest version of RPG does away with the archaic column > specificity. Why ? Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Apr 12 10:49:44 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Don Lancaster was Re: Ebay Mark-8 Plans In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990412092701.00caec60@vpwisfirewall> References: <199904101232.IAA02610@chmls06.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990412114831.00b082d0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:27 AM 4/12/99 -0500, John Foust said something like: >At 08:32 AM 4/10/99 -0400, Jon wrote: >> >>By the way does the VCF pay the speakers? Or their travel? > >VCF has a generous travel fund, fueled by Intel, Paul Allen, and >auctions of antique computer wiring harnesses on eBay. In fact, >any member of this mailing list is eligible for grants of up to >$1,500 for travel and lodging purposes, if you wish to attend. Well, so much for April 1st being the specific "Holiday of Jest" ;-) Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From danburrows at mindspring.com Mon Apr 12 11:18:23 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E Message-ID: <003201be8503$71bcd770$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> > >>Try to get some 'plastic weld'. It's a solvent for the sort of plastic >>used on these panels, and you can weld the broken bit back in place. It's >>normally a very strong repair. > >Thanks... I'll keep that in mind... Megan: since you are taking chemistry get a small bottle of methylene chloride. It works wonders as a plastic glue. At the EPA we made aquariums out of Plexiglas and used it for gluing the panels together. You will want a 50 or a 100 microliter syringe to dispense it also. Dan From elvey at hal.com Mon Apr 12 12:02:27 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <199904102351.AA21263@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199904121702.KAA01449@civic.hal.com> allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > > The 8051 is very ugly in other places. > > Then there are the NEC uPD 78xx series that are similar in register layout > to z80 but code wise, not close. They have a table lookup instructions for > that exact task. They are targetted as rom based controllers and code > efficientcy is a requirement but often controller don't need to preocess > the kinds of things a PC (or other general purpose computer) would. Hi Even the 4004 had an indirect table jump, so what is all the noise about. Dwight From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Apr 12 12:41:04 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <199904121547.RAA11736@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 12, 99 05:47:03 pm Message-ID: <199904121741.KAA30745@saul9.u.washington.edu> > > As for OS/400, all you have to do is use the ELMCRPF command... Eliminate > > Cryptic Features. What? You can't find it? Well, I don't have any other > > suggestions then. :) > > Cryptic ? come on - nice, structured and logical - and BTW, no OS > can be mastered without some time to learn the internals - some might > offer fun wile learning (I still considere VMS the most cryptic one). You definitely have a point about VMS. I was making fun of OS/400's abbreviated command style more than anything else. (You know "Work with print queues" becomes "WRKPRTQ", etc.) -- Derek From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 12 12:47:52 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <003701be850c$97045d60$0100c0a8@fuj03> It's not about and indirect table jump, it's about an indirect INDEXED table jump. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 11:12 AM Subject: Re[2]: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) >allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: >> >> the kinds of things a PC (or other general purpose computer) would. > >Hi > Even the 4004 had an indirect table jump, so what is all the >noise about. >Dwight > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 12 14:59:53 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <199904121741.KAA30745@saul9.u.washington.edu> References: <199904121547.RAA11736@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 12, 99 05:47:03 pm Message-ID: <199904121800.UAA20333@horus.mch.sni.de> > > > As for OS/400, all you have to do is use the ELMCRPF command... Eliminate > > > Cryptic Features. What? You can't find it? Well, I don't have any other > > > suggestions then. :) > > Cryptic ? come on - nice, structured and logical - and BTW, no OS > > can be mastered without some time to learn the internals - some might > > offer fun wile learning (I still considere VMS the most cryptic one). > You definitely have a point about VMS. > I was making fun of OS/400's abbreviated command style more than anything > else. (You know "Work with print queues" becomes "WRKPRTQ", etc.) I know only our 'new' (some 6 years ago) BS2000 command interface (SDF) is more OT for an OS command line - they canged simple commands like CAT[aloge] (to modify catalog entries - like renaming or change attributes) into Modify-Cataloge-Attributes - together with changing from simple position and keyword parameters into some kind of parenthes driven madness - a simple 'CAT a,b,STATE=U' to change a filename (a to b) became 'MODIFY-FILE-ATTRIBUTES FILE-NAME=a,NEW-NAME=b' simple, isn't it ? Some simple comands now need several lines to type ... Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Apr 12 13:40:01 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <199904121800.UAA20333@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 12, 99 08:00:53 pm Message-ID: <199904121840.LAA15364@saul10.u.washington.edu> > > I was making fun of OS/400's abbreviated command style more than anything > > else. (You know "Work with print queues" becomes "WRKPRTQ", etc.) > > I know only our 'new' (some 6 years ago) BS2000 command interface > (SDF) is more OT for an OS command line - they canged simple commands > like CAT[aloge] (to modify catalog entries - like renaming or change > attributes) into Modify-Cataloge-Attributes - together with changing > from simple position and keyword parameters into some kind of parenthes > driven madness - a simple 'CAT a,b,STATE=U' to change a filename (a to b) > became 'MODIFY-FILE-ATTRIBUTES FILE-NAME=a,NEW-NAME=b' simple, isn't it ? > > Some simple comands now need several lines to type ... When I used OS/400 it was on a 327x terminal (wiht lousy editing keys and not much real-time interaction). Does OS/400 still use or support those? I would hate to type your enormous commands on a 3278. What's BS2000? Some international standard? -- Derek From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 12 12:36:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 In-Reply-To: <199904120251.AA22073@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 11, 99 10:51:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 389 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990412/0bb2539d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 12 12:38:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 In-Reply-To: <199904120251.AA21831@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 11, 99 10:51:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 552 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990412/6ee6f37d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 12 13:06:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E In-Reply-To: <003201be8503$71bcd770$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Apr 12, 99 12:18:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1082 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990412/726f952f/attachment.ksh From fzammett at fdisgkop.com Mon Apr 12 14:12:53 1999 From: fzammett at fdisgkop.com (Frank W. Zammetti) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! References: <199904121840.LAA15364@saul10.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <371245B5.CA0FFEAB@fdisgkop.com> It IS a stupid question, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be asked! Sometimes the silly ones are the ones with the most interesting answers! :) I don't actually know the answer, but perhaps it might be fun to take some guesses (some serious, some not so serious!)... 1) Blue is psychologically a color that evokes feelings of calmness. If I had to guess I would think this was the real reason (or am I giving the Redmonites too much credit?!?) 2) It looks like a Commodore 64 screen which is about how much an NT box that has experienced a BSOD is worth at that point (actually, I'm a huge fan of the good 'ole C64 so I say this tongue in cheek since I'd pick a C64 over an NT box anyway!) 3) The color combination is very easy to read, so this way you can very clearly read a bunch of crap that no human being understands anyway! 4) Couldn't be green because Green Screen Of Death doesn't flow off the tongue as easy (the Green-Screen part I think). 5) Red, for obvious reasons, was quickly dismissed as a possibility. Red reminds people of Hell which is where you wish you were when your eCommerce server BSOD's on you at 7pm on a Saturday night! 6) Bill Gates wanted it to be Bill's Screen Of Death originally but Balmer talked him out of it. Less to explain at a trial years later he figured. 7) Green wouldn't have worked because then every time your servers crashed you'd be remininded how much green your wasting by not just running Linux instead! 8) Couldn't have been green because GSOD could mean God is full of shit, which is exactly what he is when NT crashes (God in this case being Bill Gates. That's what He says anyway!) 9) White-on-black was the first choice since it's the hardware default and would require less coding, plus it's easy to read. But then the marketing boys got a hold of it and they said "Yeah, right, we put dominating white letters on a subordinate black background and we'll start a race war". (Please, no letter over that one, it's mearly a joke!) 10) The RGB hex code for blue is #0000FF. This means: a) exactly 00 reasons to choose NT over Linux, b) NT's mean time between failure record (00 seconds), and c) two loud FUCK's! every time you see a BSOD. Ok, now that I've insulted half the list, hope someone gets a laugh at at least some of these! Any others?? Derek Peschel wrote: > > > > I was making fun of OS/400's abbreviated command style more than anything > > > else. (You know "Work with print queues" becomes "WRKPRTQ", etc.) > > > > I know only our 'new' (some 6 years ago) BS2000 command interface > > (SDF) is more OT for an OS command line - they canged simple commands > > like CAT[aloge] (to modify catalog entries - like renaming or change > > attributes) into Modify-Cataloge-Attributes - together with changing > > from simple position and keyword parameters into some kind of parenthes > > driven madness - a simple 'CAT a,b,STATE=U' to change a filename (a to b) > > became 'MODIFY-FILE-ATTRIBUTES FILE-NAME=a,NEW-NAME=b' simple, isn't it ? > > > > Some simple comands now need several lines to type ... > > When I used OS/400 it was on a 327x terminal (wiht lousy editing keys and > not much real-time interaction). Does OS/400 still use or support those? I > would hate to type your enormous commands on a 3278. > > What's BS2000? Some international standard? > > -- Derek -- -------------------------------------------------- Frank W. Zammetti Programmer/Analyst First Data Investor Services Group King Of Prussia, PA http://www.fdisgkop.com Work Phone: (610)/312-5534 Fax: (610)/312-5910 eMail: fzammett@fdisgkop.com ICQ: 20974794 AOL IM: fzammett My Home Page: http://www.voicenet.com/~fzammett -------------------------------------------------- From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 12 16:31:40 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <199904121840.LAA15364@saul10.u.washington.edu> References: <199904121800.UAA20333@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 12, 99 08:00:53 pm Message-ID: <199904121932.VAA24365@horus.mch.sni.de> > > > I was making fun of OS/400's abbreviated command style more than anything > > > else. (You know "Work with print queues" becomes "WRKPRTQ", etc.) > > I know only our 'new' (some 6 years ago) BS2000 command interface > > (SDF) is more OT for an OS command line - they canged simple commands > > like CAT[aloge] (to modify catalog entries - like renaming or change > > attributes) into Modify-Cataloge-Attributes - together with changing > > from simple position and keyword parameters into some kind of parenthes > > driven madness - a simple 'CAT a,b,STATE=U' to change a filename (a to b) > > became 'MODIFY-FILE-ATTRIBUTES FILE-NAME=a,NEW-NAME=b' simple, isn't it ? > > Some simple comands now need several lines to type ... > When I used OS/400 it was on a 327x terminal (wiht lousy editing keys and > not much real-time interaction). Does OS/400 still use or support those? I > would hate to type your enormous commands on a 3278. At least tey are still possible to use :) > What's BS2000? Some international standard? Sounds possible if you take this cruel and horrible command format :) No, in fact it's an OS for /370ish mainframe computers. Think about the whole galaxy of and IBM OS (like DOS etc.) and all the add ons and tools integrated into one OS and you get BS2000. I love it, I whish there where an equivalent OS for mini/PC systems. Incredible fast and reliable, easy to handle (if you know how) and almost limitless. But still a mainframe syste, so no memory mapped graphic adaptors :))) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From danburrows at mindspring.com Mon Apr 12 14:32:29 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E Message-ID: <001801be851b$b1783950$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> > >The new name for that is dichloromethane IIRC.... Both names are currently used by the solvent vendors. > >And that's basically what 'plastic weld' is (or at least it smells like >it). But in the UK it's almost impossible to get chemicals for home use. >Dunno why, but I suspect sodium chloride would be unavailable if you >asked for it under that name ;-). You just need to know the right people in labs.:) You also don't want to know all the different things I have in my solvent cabinet or the explosion proof refrig. that is in one of my sheds.:) It is amazing what you can get (cheap or free) a lab bankruptcy sales. Especially when you know the people. > >> a 50 or a 100 microliter syringe to dispense it also. > >The easiest way that I've found to use it is to clamp the plastic >together and then to dip a small brush in the solvent and run it along >the crack. It'll be drawn into the crack by capillary action and will >weld the plastic together. I agree but for front panel switches and things that you want to look good without and drips I use the syringe. Then to I have them down to 2 microliter. The 50 microliter one is huge for my usual work. Dan From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Apr 12 14:21:38 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <199904111316.AA27965@world.std.com> Message-ID: >In the business worlds in NY and eastern PA S100 crates were the rule as >most were seen as the business strength machines and the apple/trs80 >as toys. This was by people that didn't care what cpu only that it ran! At least locally in SoCal we had lots of the Basic 4 "business" computers. Nothing but a big empty box with a Z80 inside, but that nice big empty box made them a lot of money for way too long. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 12 15:14:22 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Is that a typo for 3001, or do you really mean 3201? If the latter, what It was a typo. That two bit slice was somewahat different in general structure than the 6701/2901. > was this chip? Bit slice chipsets are rather interesting to play with > (I've done a little with the 2900 series) -- it's a pity that none > (AFAIK) are still in production. > What about the 29000 (29116) ? I happen to have two of the 16bit micros (29116).. Still the 74181 and 74189 parts are common enough for experimentors. Allison From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 12 15:15:07 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Don Lancaster was Re: Ebay Mark-8 Plans In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990412092701.00caec60@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 1999, John Foust wrote: > At 08:32 AM 4/10/99 -0400, Jon wrote: > > > >By the way does the VCF pay the speakers? Or their travel? > > VCF has a generous travel fund, fueled by Intel, Paul Allen, and > auctions of antique computer wiring harnesses on eBay. In fact, > any member of this mailing list is eligible for grants of up to > $1,500 for travel and lodging purposes, if you wish to attend. Well, this is certainly news to me, and I'd love if you would explain this in private e-mail :) (for the record, no I don't know what he's talking about so please don't e-mail me asking where to sign up). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 12 15:19:10 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Talking of things like that, I seem to remember that Signetics sold a > demonstration board based on the 3001/3002 bitslice chips that ran 8080 > code a lot faster than a real 8080. Those were indeed fast (about 4-5x) and the firmare was extensable, I'd love to find one. > Then there was the Tektronix 'almost 6800' used in the 4052, etc. It was > a board of 2901's, etc and ran an instruction set that was almost upwards > compatible with the 6800 used in the 4051 (IIRC the DAA instruction was The moto 6800 was protoed using 2901s. It would only need two. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Mon Apr 12 15:20:45 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E Message-ID: <990412162045.20c0011b@trailing-edge.com> >>The new name for that is dichloromethane IIRC.... >Both names are currently used by the solvent vendors. >>And that's basically what 'plastic weld' is (or at least it smells like >>it). But in the UK it's almost impossible to get chemicals for home use. >>Dunno why, but I suspect sodium chloride would be unavailable if you >>asked for it under that name ;-). >You just need to know the right people in labs.:) Or head to your local plastics supplier - all of the ones I've ever dealt with are more than happy to sell you all the useful solvents. Incidentally, for those doing "front panel" restorations, talk to a good sign-making shop. It's rather straightforward these days to get custom plastic panels made and printed. I've had this done several times and have been very satisfied with the results. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From elvey at hal.com Mon Apr 12 15:42:53 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199904122042.NAA01527@civic.hal.com> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > Talking of things like that, I seem to remember that Signetics sold a > > demonstration board based on the 3001/3002 bitslice chips that ran 8080 > > code a lot faster than a real 8080. > > Those were indeed fast (about 4-5x) and the firmare was extensable, I'd > love to find one. > > > Then there was the Tektronix 'almost 6800' used in the 4052, etc. It was > > a board of 2901's, etc and ran an instruction set that was almost upwards > > compatible with the 6800 used in the 4051 (IIRC the DAA instruction was > > The moto 6800 was protoed using 2901s. It would only need two. > > Allison > Hi Most use programmable parts to make specialized processors now days. When I was with Intel, we had a controller card that used 3001's as the control processor. All I remember was that I wish they'd used the 2900 family sequencer instead of the goofy thing Intel had. Programming was almost impossible and just trying to follow someone elses program was a major effort. It made it real difficult for someone to copy your code without being obvious about though. Dwight From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Apr 12 17:03:56 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Don Lancaster was Re: Ebay Mark-8 Plans In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990412092701.00caec60@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990412170356.22df787c@intellistar.net> At 01:15 PM 4/12/99 -0700, Sellam wrote: >> VCF has a generous travel fund, fueled by Intel, Paul Allen, and >> auctions of antique computer wiring harnesses on eBay. In fact, >> any member of this mailing list is eligible for grants of up to >> $1,500 for travel and lodging purposes, if you wish to attend. > >Well, this is certainly news to me, and I'd love if you would explain this >in private e-mail :) > >(for the record, no I don't know what he's talking about so please don't >e-mail me asking where to sign up). Shucks! and I was all set to go! Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 12 15:45:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Apr 12, 99 04:14:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1165 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990412/21a804f1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 12 15:53:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Apr 12, 99 04:19:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 919 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990412/db8c828c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 12 15:41:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E In-Reply-To: <001801be851b$b1783950$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Apr 12, 99 03:32:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1162 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990412/bf6ce83b/attachment.ksh From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Apr 12 15:06:06 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: 6502 vs Z80, round 97 In-Reply-To: <199904112227.AA09574@world.std.com> Message-ID: >I was pointing out that is the processor was running fast enough even a >dog can look good. ;) Obviously using a 8mhz z80 as the standard your >comparison CPU had better be of similar generational speed or it may fail >the test. the inverse is with a 33mhz z185 I know I can blow the 65c02 >out of the water unless someone has at least a 25-30mhz 6502! I think I remember reading that the 6502 was eventually included in gate array logic libraries, so that GaaS parts with Ghz clocks likely exist (perhaps only embedded in other designs though). One of the things I have noticed is that great similarity exists between a couple of instruction sets, the 6502 and the Sparc, and the IBM 360 and 68000. Kind of the classics of RISC and CISC, and I love them both. Arguing about the 6502 vs Z80 makes about as much sense as arguing about which cart is faster without discussing the horse or load. As I remember it speed was a big "talking" point, but the real issue for most power users was capacity, not speed. From mbg at world.std.com Mon Apr 12 16:24:43 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E Message-ID: <199904122124.AA25110@world.std.com> >Megan: since you are taking chemistry get a small bottle of methylene >chloride. It works wonders as a plastic glue. At the EPA we made >aquariums out of Plexiglas and used it for gluing the panels together. >You will want a 50 or a 100 microliter syringe to dispense it also. Just so happens I have lab tonight... I'll check the Merck Manual and see if they have any... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From at258 at osfn.org Mon Apr 12 17:03:17 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We've got a big one of those. In service, as I understand it from ca 1975 to 1997. So it must be a sturdy beast. It's certainly big enbough. On Mon, 12 Apr 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >In the business worlds in NY and eastern PA S100 crates were the rule as > >most were seen as the business strength machines and the apple/trs80 > >as toys. This was by people that didn't care what cpu only that it ran! > > At least locally in SoCal we had lots of the Basic 4 "business" computers. > Nothing but a big empty box with a Z80 inside, but that nice big empty box > made them a lot of money for way too long. > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From danburrows at mindspring.com Mon Apr 12 16:49:33 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E Message-ID: <016701be852f$61b0dad0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >> I agree but for front panel switches and things that you want to look good >> without and drips I use the syringe. Then to I have them down to 2 >> microliter. The 50 microliter one is huge for my usual work. > >2 mm^3? That's small... Yes and the sample never makes it into the barrel of the syringe. The plunger is a long wire that is stepped is size. The large part is in the body and the small part goes the length of the needle. > The normal injection volume for GC/Mass spec is 1 or 2 microliters. The usual syringe used is 10 microliter. The plunger is the approx size of 26 or 28 gauge wire. They are stainless and they do bend and kink easily. I long ago lost count of the # I have messed up. Dan From a2k at one.net Mon Apr 12 17:11:31 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Therac-25 (was: microcode, compilers, and supercomputer architecture) In-Reply-To: <199904080232.WAA02206@lumiere.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: The Therac-25 (and several other poorly-made machines) are in a book called "Fatal Defect: Chasing Killer Computer Bugs" by Ivars Peterson, ISBN 0-679-74027-9... it's a bit dry at times, but has some good stories of programmers that I'm glad I'm not :) Kevin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After sifting through the overwritten remaining blocks of Luke's home directory, Luke and PDP-1 sped away from /u/lars, across the surface of the Winchester riding Luke's flying read/write head. PDP-1 had Luke stop at the edge of the cylinder overlooking /usr/spool/uucp. "Unix-to-Unix Copy Program;" said PDP-1. "You will never find a more wretched hive of bugs and flamers. We must be cautious." -- DECWARS ____________________________________________________________________ | Kevin Stewart | "I am a secret | | KC8BLL ----------| Wrapped in a mystery -Milford High School | | a2k@one.net | Wrapped in an enigma Drama Tech Dept. | |jlennon@nether.net| And drizzled in some tasty chocolate stuff.| -------------------------------------------------------------------- From at258 at osfn.org Mon Apr 12 17:12:47 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Don Lancaster was Re: Ebay Mark-8 Plans In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990412170356.22df787c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > >> VCF has a generous travel fund, fueled by Intel, Paul Allen, and > >> auctions of antique computer wiring harnesses on eBay. In fact, > >> any member of this mailing list is eligible for grants of up to > >> $1,500 for travel and lodging purposes, if you wish to attend. > Shucks! and I was all set to go! Hell, I even had my bags packed! M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From max82 at surfree.com Mon Apr 12 16:18:28 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!) In-Reply-To: <371245B5.CA0FFEAB@fdisgkop.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 1999, Frank W. Zammetti wrote: >3) The color combination is very easy to read, so this way you can very >clearly read a bunch of crap that no human being understands anyway! Well, I don't know. However, MS Word/Windows and /Macintosh has a strange option: to have large white letters on a blue background instead of black on white. This has nothing to do with any color settings, and no other colors can be used in a similar way. This may have classic reasons. Anyone know? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From g at kurico.com Mon Apr 12 17:22:28 1999 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!) In-Reply-To: References: <371245B5.CA0FFEAB@fdisgkop.com> Message-ID: > Well, I don't know. However, MS Word/Windows and /Macintosh has a strange > option: to have large white letters on a blue background instead of black > on white. This has nothing to do with any color settings, and no other > colors can be used in a similar way. This may have classic reasons. Anyone > know? Don't know the exact reason but that was the default color combination of the DOS version of MS Word (and every day I use the current version, I long for the old one). George From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 12 17:28:01 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Announcement! Message-ID: Pack your bags! The third annual Vintage Computer Festival has been set for October 2nd and 3rd at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, California. More information to come shortly. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Apr 12 17:31:20 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!) In-Reply-To: from "George Currie" at Apr 12, 99 05:22:28 pm Message-ID: <199904122231.PAA03538@saul9.u.washington.edu> > > Well, I don't know. However, MS Word/Windows and /Macintosh has a strange > > option: to have large white letters on a blue background instead of black > > on white. This has nothing to do with any color settings, and no other > > colors can be used in a similar way. This may have classic reasons. Anyone > > know? > > Don't know the exact reason but that was the default color > combination of the DOS version of MS Word (and every day I use > the current version, I long for the old one). It was also the default color scheme for WordPerfect. Wasn't WordPerfect around before Word was? Given the number of WordPerfect users, I think it's safe to say the modern Word option is based on WordPerfect. -- Derek From fpp at concentric.net Mon Apr 12 17:35:46 1999 From: fpp at concentric.net (Paul Passmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!) Message-ID: <001101be8534$cff6bc80$fbf3adce@paul> > Well, I don't know. However, MS Word/Windows and /Macintosh has a strange > option: to have large white letters on a blue background instead of black > on white. This has nothing to do with any color settings, and no other > colors can be used in a similar way. This may have classic reasons. Anyone > know? >Don't know the exact reason but that was the default color >combination of the DOS version of MS Word (and every day I use >the current version, I long for the old one). Well perhaps it is because the de-facto standard DOS wordprocessor was Word Perfect. Their system was default blue screen and white letters. A long long time ago in a system far far away Microsoft was just another software company and they 'adopted' WordPerfect's colors and emulated WP commands. Paul From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Apr 12 17:39:38 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Announcement! In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 12, 99 03:28:01 pm Message-ID: <199904122239.PAA13960@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 643 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990412/5957f81f/attachment.ksh From a2k at one.net Mon Apr 12 17:37:31 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: [RANTISH] Programming Stupidity, useless errors, et al. In-Reply-To: <13442097286.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: I agree with you 100%. If Winblows is top of the line bullshit, then I think I'll find a new hobby. I love my Linux machines (P166, SparcII) and loath the Win98. Speaking of useless dialogues, I was reading a PC Magazines or something over someone's shoulder a long time ago (When 95a was big) and there was a "Useless Dialogue of the Month" section... the winner was a windoe that said: "Error: Windows cannot delete this file. Reason: Not enough free space. Try deleting some files first". Suck it, M$. Kevin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After sifting through the overwritten remaining blocks of Luke's home directory, Luke and PDP-1 sped away from /u/lars, across the surface of the Winchester riding Luke's flying read/write head. PDP-1 had Luke stop at the edge of the cylinder overlooking /usr/spool/uucp. "Unix-to-Unix Copy Program;" said PDP-1. "You will never find a more wretched hive of bugs and flamers. We must be cautious." -- DECWARS ____________________________________________________________________ | Kevin Stewart | "I am a secret | | KC8BLL ----------| Wrapped in a mystery -Milford High School | | a2k@one.net | Wrapped in an enigma Drama Tech Dept. | |jlennon@nether.net| And drizzled in some tasty chocolate stuff.| -------------------------------------------------------------------- From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Apr 12 17:40:51 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: digital bites the dust, finally Message-ID: <37127673.9C06DBC4@halcyon.com> Well, the two big signs that said |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| on the DECwest buildings in Bellevue, WA disappeared sometime in the last few days. Just big blanks there now, not even a Compaq, yet. Also, in case anyone's interested, here's a reference to the DECwest Alumni club. http://www.halcyon.com/edge/decwest_alumni Dave From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 12 17:48:13 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: digital bites the dust, finally In-Reply-To: <37127673.9C06DBC4@halcyon.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 1999, David C. Jenner wrote: > Well, the two big signs that said > > |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| > > on the DECwest buildings in Bellevue, WA > disappeared sometime in the last few days. > > Just big blanks there now, not even a Compaq, yet. I'll bet they show up on ebay in a few months. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Apr 12 18:12:05 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: White on blue (was Re: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!) In-Reply-To: <199904122231.PAA03538@saul9.u.washington.edu> References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990412161019.00b8bb30@mcmanis.com> > This [white on blue] may have classic reasons. Anyone know? In 1984 Commodore produced as the reason for white letters on a blue background a NASA study that found this to be the easiest combination on the eyes, especially when you had limitied resolution. --Chuck From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Apr 12 18:10:05 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: White on blue (was Re: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990412161019.00b8bb30@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 12, 99 04:12:05 pm Message-ID: <199904122310.QAA13852@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 728 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990412/74990c71/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Apr 12 18:22:25 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: White on blue (was Re: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: In-Reply-To: <199904122310.QAA13852@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <4.1.19990412161019.00b8bb30@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990412162002.009d51e0@mcmanis.com> It was [4/1 was two weeks ago], but I'm not fooling. Amiga Inc was told to make the colors of the "Command line interface" (aka CLI) white on blue by Commoodore. When they asked why (I believe it was RJ Mical who asked) they produced this report. I can see if one the original Amiga guys still has it in their files but that was the stated reason. --Chuck At 04:10 PM 4/12/99 -0700, you wrote: >::> This [white on blue] may have classic reasons. Anyone know? >:: >::In 1984 Commodore produced as the reason for white letters on a blue >::background a NASA study that found this to be the easiest combination on >::the eyes, especially when you had limitied resolution. > >April Fools was a few weeks ago, wasn't it? :-P > >-- >-------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- >Cameron Kaiser Database Programmer/Administrative Computing >Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 >ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 >-- The reader this message encounters not failing to understand is cursed. ---- From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Apr 12 18:20:09 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: White on blue (was Re: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990412162002.009d51e0@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 12, 99 04:22:25 pm Message-ID: <199904122320.QAA09966@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 891 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990412/1ecc1acb/attachment.ksh From paulk at microsoft.com Mon Apr 12 18:18:54 1999 From: paulk at microsoft.com (Paul Kearns) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: WTTA (Want To Throw Away): DEC PMAG-AA Message-ID: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B50EF35172@RED-MSG-45> Does anyone have any use for a TURBOchannel monochrome framebuffer -- a PMAG-AA?? I feel guilty just pitching it, but I'm tired of packing it up every time I move. Free for the asking. Paul Kearns paulk@microsoft.com From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 12 18:21:16 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: 6502 vs Z80, round 97 Message-ID: <002201be853b$2a83d4c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> It's true, what you say about the value of discussing performance without discussing the task. Keep in mind, though, that Motorola's favorite trick was to boast how fast its processors could execute no-op's. The 6502 core is in as many libraries as it is because it is small and thrifty, not because it's fast. It's fast because it's small and thrifty. It was included in a wide range of cell libraries, particularly the Rockwell incarnation. I'm not sure why this was the case. Perhaps it's because they (Rockwell) had stopped producing the CPU and were using it as a core themselves. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 3:21 PM Subject: 6502 vs Z80, round 97 >>I was pointing out that is the processor was running fast enough even a >>dog can look good. ;) Obviously using a 8mhz z80 as the standard your >>comparison CPU had better be of similar generational speed or it may fail >>the test. the inverse is with a 33mhz z185 I know I can blow the 65c02 >>out of the water unless someone has at least a 25-30mhz 6502! > >I think I remember reading that the 6502 was eventually included in gate >array logic libraries, so that GaaS parts with Ghz clocks likely exist >(perhaps only embedded in other designs though). > >One of the things I have noticed is that great similarity exists between a >couple of instruction sets, the 6502 and the Sparc, and the IBM 360 and >68000. Kind of the classics of RISC and CISC, and I love them both. > >Arguing about the 6502 vs Z80 makes about as much sense as arguing about >which cart is faster without discussing the horse or load. As I remember it >speed was a big "talking" point, but the real issue for most power users >was capacity, not speed. > > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 12 18:29:02 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:05 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <199904122329.AA14445@world.std.com> References: <4.1.19990412162002.009d51e0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <199904130016.RAA12989@bart.allegro.com> > Heh, Commodore thinking about user interfaces! What a concept! :-) (Sits > down at his AmigaOS 3.0 1200, next to the C128DCR.) Hey...Amiga wasn't totally at fault on the user interface...they contracted it out to someone in England (Tim King?). He came up with the strange stuff, and wrote it in BCPL (causing problems with the kernel group, IIRC). I remember because Amiga called me in 1983 (again, IIRC) and asked me to bid on writing a user interface so that they'd have one if Tim's fell through. I was in the process of starting my own company, so I said "sorry, no". (Why me? I'd interviewed with them in 1982 the same day a friend of mine, Carl Sassenrath, interviewed with Symantec. We each got an offer, and turned it down saying "you should talk to my friend, instead". So, I then interviewed at Symantec, Carl interviewed at Amiga. We both got offers, but I said "no, I'll stay at HP ... maybe they'll really implement a technical ladder [they didn't]". Carl accepted his. A year later I left HP.) SS From CharlesII at nwonline.net Mon Apr 12 19:31:16 1999 From: CharlesII at nwonline.net (Charles Oblender) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: IBM diagnostic cassette In-Reply-To: <3a94690d.2442aba6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990412203116.00799100@mail.nwonline.net> At 09:51 PM 4/11/99 EDT, you wrote: >picked up two neat items at the hamfest today. the first was two clean amiga >500s and a IBM diagnostic cassette ver 1.02 with a part number 6081562. looks >like it only has 5 minutes of tape on it. i presume its only for the 5150. >how would one run this tape? > Do you have an extra power supply for those 500 that I could some how aquire? The flea market special I have didn't come with one. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Apr 12 19:51:36 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: IBM diagnostic cassette <.?> Message-ID: In a message dated 99-04-12 20:29:05 EDT, you write: > >picked up two neat items at the hamfest today. the first was two clean > amiga > >500s and a IBM diagnostic cassette ver 1.02 with a part number 6081562. > looks > >like it only has 5 minutes of tape on it. i presume its only for the 5150. > >how would one run this tape? > > > > Do you have an extra power supply for those 500 that I could some how > aquire? The flea market special I have didn't come with one. > unfortunately i only got one power supply. the ps seems fairly simple though. 5v 4.5a 12v 1a -12v 100ma perhaps one could be adapted to work. From chemif at mbox.queen.it Mon Apr 12 22:11:16 1999 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (RICCARDO) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: ABS - or is it Pure BS Message-ID: <199904130311.FAA02246@beta.queen.it> At 16:02 05/04/99 -0700, many of you wrote: >Boy, we're way off topic here. Yes, I think we are OT, exept if this (anyway interesting) discussion started talking about the CPU that drives the ABS systems (that's BTW older than 10 years). Anyway here my impressions: >Secondly, ABS is for dry or wet roads. It actually increases stopping >distance in snow and gravel, because on those surfaces it is more >advantageous to lock up the wheels and pile up material in front of each >tire. This is very true, and that's why my AUDI 90 was equipped with a switch to disable the ABS on snow. I' ve made many trials with and w./out ABS on snow and found that the switch had a real meaning. >ABS - American Bull Shi... American? Was it a Bosch patent? The only page I found was on Mercedes: http://www.mercedes-benz.com/e/innovation/rd/forschung_nov96.htm > > wheel motion sensors, something like the big GE locomotives. Some > systems used notched brake drums. Yes, in italian "ruota fonica" that in english should be a "sound wheel" or similar: it' the same used inside many needle printer to determine the movement of the carriage. >So? If the car is stopped, the wheels aren't turning. If the brakes have >locked and the car is skidding all over the place, the wheels aren't >turning. What's the difference? >AFAIK, it looks for times when only some of the wheels are stopped (i.e. >it assumes that at least one wheel still has some grip on the road). If >all the wheels are skidding, then essentially ABS won't do a darn thing. I've asking myself the same thing. My thinking is that that the system start its action when it detects the wheel is stopping and it cuts the breaking pressure to this channel so the wheel starts again moving (even on ice an unbreaked wheel rolls), so, in general, it checks that "after cutting the breaking pressure to a stopped wheel, the same keep rolling or not" if yes the system wait for next locking situation, if no the system make some additional attemps on the channels then stops. I think that specially in recent versions the ABS is checking also different speed between wheels. This improvement was necessary to develop the ASR (Acceleration Skid Control) and the amazing ESP (Electronic Stability Program). >Having had decades of extensive driving during the long cold winters in >western Canada, Qebec and Ontario , I would consider myself a quite skilled >slippery road driver. The worst thing you can do when you go into a skid is >lock your brakes. The best is to turn into the skid and use your accellerator >and steering to bring it back under control. I would rather have any brake >action under my control and hope I can steer out of it without using them. I fully agree on the dangerous use of the brakes:I' ve tried to conduct narrow mountain curves with snow, finding wich solution would better work in case I found myself to enter the curve with a higher speed (at last with my front wheel drive car) So I' ve tryed different possibilities E.g. brakes, acceleration, clutch and brakes, a lower gear etc. I found that the best is "clutch and pray" In fact: brakes or clutch and brakes = front wheel skid + worse stability lower gear or acceleration = similarly to breaks you are forcing the wheels to an unnatural speed (different radius)=skid + worse stability clutch and pray = with clutch pressed every wheels automatically adapt to the speed forced by the radius with lateral grip as only job to make, (e.g. with no loose of grip caused by de- or accelerations) and the pray helps...stability :-> > ABS seems just damnright dangerous to me All the above was to be considered with ABS=off >, except perhaps for the complete novice who >would lock his brakes out of fear and >inexperience. No, it's like the usage of safety belts, it works better or worse according to different situations: personally I thank the inventor of ABS because (unfortunately) I had the chance to verify its effectiveness when (in motorway speeding at 160 km/h) I suddenly found a stopped car in the fast lane. The good driving procedures said that one should break down the speed as much as possible (no steering) and then try to avoid the obstacle by steering by its side like this -------------------------------- [=]---->--->-->->->>>\ [X] -------------------------------- -[=] -------------------------------- but at that speed it's very difficult to keep the car in a straight direction to guarantee the necessary speed/stability to make the vital last steering.The working of ABS helped me to decrease the speed with more efficacy and allowed the late steering (while breaking):the car that followed me (no ABS) could'nt do the same and crashed against the stopped car. Really it's not only question of driving skills. Riccardo Romagnoli I-47100 Forl? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 12 20:09:29 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 In-Reply-To: Cameron Kaiser "Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4" (Apr 11, 17:21) References: <199904120021.RAA10336@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <9904130209.ZM26531@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 11, 17:21, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Allison wrote: > ::the oder of learning for me was PDP-8, PDP-10, CM2100, 8008, 8080 then > ::over a span of 6 years. From the 1975 to 1978 the list is z80, 8048, > :: 1802, sc/mp, 6800, 650x, 9900, pdp-11! > :: > ::I have fewer biases. ;) Well ok, if said 8085 for some, 804x for others, > ::T-11 (pdp-11 on a single chip), and z80. Never had more than the few 6502s > ::until recently but they are fun too. > > Heavily biased to 6502 myself :-) then Z80, 9995 and x86. I'll learm M68K > one of these days. I started on the Z80, then 6502, followed by ARM, 68K, 6809, 8048, PDP11, MIPS in no particular order. I still like the Z80 and 6502, but the ARM is one of my favourites. I've never written any serious code for x86, and what I've seen of the architecture fills me with loathing ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Apr 12 20:47:20 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: IBM Programmed Symbols Adapter Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990412204720.462fec74@intellistar.net> I just picked up an IBM 3270 Personal Computer Programmed Symbols Adapter card in the box. The box says that it's "an option that provides the storage and controls for displaying an APL font and six additional programmable fonts." It's a full length 8 bit card with two sockets on the to edge. There is also two jumpers in the box that I assume are used to jumper this card to another card. I didn't get any instructions or software with it. Does anyone know how to use it or have instructions etc for it? Joe From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Apr 12 22:46:06 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!) Message-ID: <01be8560$28eb0c80$488ea6d1@the-general> It is also the default color (gray on Blue) for the old DOS WordPerfect versions. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: George Currie To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 3:30 PM Subject: Re: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!) > Well, I don't know. However, MS Word/Windows and /Macintosh has a strange > option: to have large white letters on a blue background instead of black > on white. This has nothing to do with any color settings, and no other > colors can be used in a similar way. This may have classic reasons. Anyone > know? Don't know the exact reason but that was the default color combination of the DOS version of MS Word (and every day I use the current version, I long for the old one). George From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Apr 12 20:23:23 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: IBM Programmed Symbols Adapter In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990412204720.462fec74@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Apr 12, 99 08:47:20 pm Message-ID: <199904130123.SAA13665@saul9.u.washington.edu> > I just picked up an IBM 3270 Personal Computer Programmed Symbols Adapter > card in the box. The box says that it's "an option that provides the > storage and controls for displaying an APL font and six additional > programmable fonts." It's a full length 8 bit card with two sockets on the > to edge. There is also two jumpers in the box that I assume are used to > jumper this card to another card. I didn't get any instructions or > software with it. Does anyone know how to use it or have instructions etc > for it? It's possible you need a 3270 Personal Computer. (In other words, the 3270 model number refers to the main product which your adapter "adapts", not the adapter card itself.) As I recall, the 3270PC consisted of one or more cards that went inside a regular PC. I forget what it did (there are a number of "big iron for small computers" products IBM made, and I can never keep track of them all, and I actually don't especially care). I think it turned your PC into a 3270 terminal so you could talk to big iron, without providing any "big iron" capability on the PC itself. But it could have been an emulator -- there was a series of those, so you could actually run some of the VM family of OSs on your computer. I'm only providing these details because it's possible that the card won't work by itself. You not only would need exotic IBM equipment, you would need the _right_ exotic IBM equipment. -- Derek From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 12 20:15:42 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Fwd: Metric conversions..?? In-Reply-To: Christian Fandt "Fwd: Metric conversions..??" (Apr 11, 20:56) References: <4.1.19990411203239.00adc4d0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <9904130215.ZM26551@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 11, 20:56, Christian Fandt wrote: > Sorry to a few of the list members who are not native English speakers. > There are a few strange colloquial or American expressions. Ask in private > email. However, even I am not sure what a "demijohn" really is except for > perhaps a 1/2 bath in a house. A large squat glass bottle, typically 2-3 gallons. Over here, 2 gallon sizes are commonly used by homebrew winemakers. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 12 20:23:23 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)" (Apr 11, 21:47) References: <000a01be8497$543462c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <9904130223.ZM26557@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 11, 21:47, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: Allison J Parent > > > > >Never. There could have been one but I'd wonder about code efficientcy. > >Then again I've never seen one for 9900 bit that as CISC a machine if > >there ever was one. > > Someone posted a small-c compiler for the 6502 as implemented in popular > machines of the early '80's. That might be worth a look. There were at least two C compilers for the BBC micro in the mid-80s. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mmcmanus at direct.ca Mon Apr 12 20:45:36 1999 From: mmcmanus at direct.ca (mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Announcement! References: Message-ID: <001901be854f$54c59ca0$4e8d42d8@mmcmanus> Where is Santa Clara? Is It by San Fransico or LA? ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Monday, April 12, 1999 3:28 PM Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Announcement! > > Pack your bags! > > The third annual Vintage Computer Festival has been set for October 2nd > and 3rd at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, California. > > More information to come shortly. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > > > From elvey at hal.com Mon Apr 12 20:55:09 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Announcement! In-Reply-To: <001901be854f$54c59ca0$4e8d42d8@mmcmanus> Message-ID: <199904130155.SAA01702@civic.hal.com> "mike" wrote: > Where is Santa Clara? Is It by San Fransico or LA? Fly into San Jose rather than San Francisco. It'll save you some gas. Santa Clara is at the southern end of San Francisco Bay, but North West of San Jose. Dwight From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Apr 12 16:56:58 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: digital bites the dust, finally In-Reply-To: <37127673.9C06DBC4@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <199904130156.VAA06281@smtp.interlog.com> On 12 Apr 99 at 15:40, David C. Jenner wrote: > Well, the two big signs that said > > |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| > > on the DECwest buildings in Bellevue, WA > disappeared sometime in the last few days. > > Just big blanks there now, not even a Compaq, yet. > > Also, in case anyone's interested, here's a reference > to the DECwest Alumni club. > > http://www.halcyon.com/edge/decwest_alumni > > Dave > Well it looks like one could make some collecting coups if Comp-ack-ack is getting rid of all the Digital signs. I always thought of it as a cool logo. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Apr 12 16:56:59 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: digital bites the dust, finally In-Reply-To: References: <37127673.9C06DBC4@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <199904130156.VAA06293@smtp.interlog.com> On 12 Apr 99 at 15:48, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 12 Apr 1999, David C. Jenner wrote: > > > Well, the two big signs that said > > > > |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| > > > > on the DECwest buildings in Bellevue, WA > > disappeared sometime in the last few days. > > > > Just big blanks there now, not even a Compaq, yet. > > I'll bet they show up on ebay in a few months. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com And fetch big bucks. Hang on to your DEC decals. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Apr 12 16:56:59 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!) In-Reply-To: <001101be8534$cff6bc80$fbf3adce@paul> Message-ID: <199904130156.VAA06306@smtp.interlog.com> On 12 Apr 99 at 15:35, Paul Passmore wrote: > > Well, I don't know. However, MS Word/Windows and /Macintosh has a strange > > option: to have large white letters on a blue background instead of black > > on white. This has nothing to do with any color settings, and no other > > colors can be used in a similar way. This may have classic reasons. Anyone > > know? > > >Don't know the exact reason but that was the default color > >combination of the DOS version of MS Word (and every day I use > >the current version, I long for the old one). > > Well perhaps it is because the de-facto standard DOS wordprocessor was Word > Perfect. Their system was default blue screen and white letters. A long long > time ago in a system far far away Microsoft was just another software > company and they 'adopted' WordPerfect's colors and emulated WP commands. > Paul > Anyone remember the original name of the company ? Hint: not what one would expect from a solid down-to-earth god-fearing Mormon state like Utah. I have a very spacy ad in an old PC World whose slogan is " A word processor should be an etension of your mind" . ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Apr 12 16:57:00 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Announcement! In-Reply-To: <199904122239.PAA13960@oa.ptloma.edu> References: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 12, 99 03:28:01 pm Message-ID: <199904130156.VAA06313@smtp.interlog.com> On 12 Apr 99 at 15:39, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::The third annual Vintage Computer Festival has been set for October 2nd > ::and 3rd at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, California. > :: > ::More information to come shortly. > > Cool! (Now about that travel compensation. ;-) > > -- Me too ! And I even have a great idea for raising money selling reproductions of >>RARE<< Altair, Imsai, and DEC decals to paste on to your P7 5000mhz. Comp-ack-ack tower or PDP8 aquarium. ciap larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Apr 12 16:57:01 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: White on blue (was Re: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: In-Reply-To: <199904122310.QAA13852@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <4.1.19990412161019.00b8bb30@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 12, 99 04:12:05 pm Message-ID: <199904130156.VAA06321@smtp.interlog.com> On 12 Apr 99 at 16:10, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::> This [white on blue] may have classic reasons. Anyone know? > :: > ::In 1984 Commodore produced as the reason for white letters on a blue > ::background a NASA study that found this to be the easiest combination on > ::the eyes, especially when you had limitied resolution. > > April Fools was a few weeks ago, wasn't it? :-P > > -- > -------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser Database Programmer/Administrative Computing Somewhere I have a copy of a study that proves amber is the easiest on the eyes. Now if Tramiel had adopted that instead of green maybe HE would be king of the world instead of Gates. I suspect however that "Big Blue" had long before planted a subliminal message in our collective minds which negated all this. They just forgot to update in regard to Gates. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Apr 12 16:57:02 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: White on blue (was Re: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hall In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990412161019.00b8bb30@mcmanis.com> References: <199904122231.PAA03538@saul9.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199904130156.VAA06333@smtp.interlog.com> On 12 Apr 99 at 16:12, Chuck McManis wrote: > > This [white on blue] may have classic reasons. Anyone know? > > In 1984 Commodore produced as the reason for white letters on a blue > background a NASA study that found this to be the easiest combination on > the eyes, especially when you had limitied resolution. > > --Chuck > What else would you expect from NASA corporate(BIG BLUE) shills. ciao larry Sorry for all the bandwidth, but I'm giddy because CXQ-net has just voted the T3C site as the most promising collectors site on the web with "pages for all ages" of collectors and now with an events page for your up and coming. ciao larry Spam ? Whot Spam ? I don't need your steenking Spam. lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From wpe101 at banet.net Mon Apr 12 21:11:18 1999 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: digital bites the dust, finally References: Message-ID: <3712A7C6.BDA76A00@banet.net> Heard on the radio tonight, that "Compaq was having problems, amd was hoping that it's 'acquired' "Digital" division would help it out.." Wonder what Bob Palmer's doing these days ( doubt he's lunching at "Grappa" in Maynard Ma.) Will Fight SPAM, U.S. Internet users, see http://www.cauce.org sorry I could not include the link... Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Mon, 12 Apr 1999, David C. Jenner wrote: > > > Well, the two big signs that said > > > > |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| > > > > on the DECwest buildings in Bellevue, WA > > disappeared sometime in the last few days. > > > > Just big blanks there now, not even a Compaq, yet. > > I'll bet they show up on ebay in a few months. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 12 21:17:01 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <199904130217.AA19247@world.std.com> from my ampro LB using calibrated logic analyser... Tc = 1/clock z80A 4mhz or 250ns (clock is symetric) address stable before Memreq/ ~80nS (occurs 0.5clocks earlier than read or wr -delays) WR/ width 210ns (roughly 1 clock -delays) RD/ width (M1) 290us (roughly 1.5 clocks -delays RD/ width (other) 390us (roughly two clocks -delays) So the longest memory use cycle is address setup+ RD/ or about 470us. Even the rom chip select was active for less than 400ns and that includes propagation delays. the 4mhz z80 wants memories with access times in the 250ns range. In terms of memory bandwidth used the z80 runs from a high of 80% on M1 cycles (due to z80 providing memory refersh) to around less than 50% on other read or write cycles. Refresh is not a required signal for operation with static rams so the M1 memeory bandwidh can be less than 50%. This set of statements is also inaccurate as it is worst case for some instuctions. In those cases like ADD DE,HL that takes many cycles but the only bus useage is during M1 so the average bandwidth can be very low. To get 750ns I need to slow the clock to about less than 2mhz or add the time for m1 and refresh at 4mhz. In either case it's apples and oranges. The 6502 @2mhz would want 300ns memory. An aside to this is that the 6502 like many cpus use both edges of the clock to trigger functions via a two phase internal clock so there are roughly 4 phase pulses per cycle internally. the external timing of the 6502 looks simpler due to it's use of signals and the synchronous nature of the machine. this is wny external clock frequency is so meaningless. Instruction execution time is the only measure. the 6502 memory useage is far higher as it is active for half the processor cycle so it's roughly 50% in all cases. This makes hidden refresh of Drams easier with the regular cycle timing but allows less time to achieve it. If the refresh is done during the inactive portion of the 6502 cycle then memory bandwidth nears 100% use. The exception is if the memory is fast enough it can be done with post read refresh (cas after ras). Static rams will run at ~50% of bus bandwidth. Allison From jax at tvec.net Mon Apr 12 21:22:58 1999 From: jax at tvec.net (jax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E In-Reply-To: <199904122124.AA25110@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990412212258.007afd60@pop.tvec.net> At 05:24 PM 04/12/1999 -0400, you wrote: > >>Megan: since you are taking chemistry get a small bottle of methylene >>chloride. It works wonders as a plastic glue. At the EPA we made >>aquariums out of Plexiglas and used it for gluing the panels together. >>You will want a 50 or a 100 microliter syringe to dispense it also. > >Just so happens I have lab tonight... I'll check the Merck Manual >and see if they have any... :-) > Got to stick my nose in here, if you research it, you will find that concentrated solutions of methylene chloride are a confirmed carcinogenic. That said, I would still use it (if available), use gloves and put a fan to blow the fumes away from me during assembly. But then, I do this kind of stuff every day. My job. Just be careful. Your too good to lose. jax@tvec.net From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Apr 13 00:17:52 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: VERY OT: Win'98 splash screen Message-ID: <01be856c$fb0c44c0$a09ba6d1@the-general> Hi! I know that this is WAY off-topic, but I need some help: While "cleaning up" some files on his computer my dad accidentally deleted the "LOGO.SYS" file. Now when he has no splash screen when booting. All that's shown is the startup commands and the BIOS settings of the computer. He wants me to fix it, but the only problem is that he doesn't have the Windows '98 CD (came pre-loaded on the computer). What I want to know is if anyone running Windows '98 could email me the logo.sys file (I think it's only 120k or something close to that). ThAnX! -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 PS>> Please remember to change the email address to mine - this doesn't need to be continued on the List.... From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 12 22:32:13 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!) In-Reply-To: <01be8560$28eb0c80$488ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: >> Well, I don't know. However, MS Word/Windows and /Macintosh has a strange >> option: to have large white letters on a blue background instead of black >> on white. This has nothing to do with any color settings, and no other >> colors can be used in a similar way. This may have classic reasons. Anyone >> know? > >Don't know the exact reason but that was the default color >combination of the DOS version of MS Word (and every day I use >the current version, I long for the old one). > >George I think this has something to do with a request for an enhancement made by Jerry Pornelle believe it or not. I read something recenty where he wrote about having gotten MS to add some special colour combination for him. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Apr 12 17:42:50 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: IBM Programmed Symbols Adapter In-Reply-To: <199904130123.SAA13665@saul9.u.washington.edu> References: <3.0.1.16.19990412204720.462fec74@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Apr 12, 99 08:47:20 pm Message-ID: <199904130242.WAA20004@smtp.interlog.com> On 12 Apr 99 at 18:23, Derek Peschel wrote: > > I just picked up an IBM 3270 Personal Computer Programmed Symbols Adapter > > card in the box. The box says that it's "an option that provides the > > storage and controls for displaying an APL font and six additional > > programmable fonts." It's a full length 8 bit card with two sockets on the > > to edge. There is also two jumpers in the box that I assume are used to > > jumper this card to another card. I didn't get any instructions or > > software with it. Does anyone know how to use it or have instructions etc > > for it? > > It's possible you need a 3270 Personal Computer. (In other words, the 3270 > model number refers to the main product which your adapter "adapts", not the > adapter card itself.) > > As I recall, the 3270PC consisted of one or more cards that went inside a > regular PC. I forget what it did (there are a number of "big iron for small > computers" products IBM made, and I can never keep track of them all, and I > actually don't especially care). I think it turned your PC into a 3270 > terminal so you could talk to big iron, without providing any "big iron" > capability on the PC itself. But it could have been an emulator -- there > was a series of those, so you could actually run some of the VM family of > OSs on your computer. > > I'm only providing these details because it's possible that the card won't > work by itself. You not only would need exotic IBM equipment, you would > need the _right_ exotic IBM equipment. > > -- Derek > There's a fairly good write-up in early Muellers UpGr&Rep PCs. It was able to talk to BiG Iron and also function on it's own as a regular XT. Obviously geared to the business environment when IBM was still hedging its bets. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Apr 12 17:42:49 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: IBM Programmed Symbols Adapter In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990412204720.462fec74@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199904130242.WAA20014@smtp.interlog.com> On 12 Apr 99 at 20:47, Joe wrote: > I just picked up an IBM 3270 Personal Computer Programmed Symbols Adapter > card in the box. The box says that it's "an option that provides the > storage and controls for displaying an APL font and six additional > programmable fonts." It's a full length 8 bit card with two sockets on the > to edge. There is also two jumpers in the box that I assume are used to > jumper this card to another card. I didn't get any instructions or > software with it. Does anyone know how to use it or have instructions etc > for it? > > Joe > That sounds like a card which could enable my otherwise useless IBM monitor meant for the 3270XT. There was a previous discussion on this machine a while back. I think there were something like 5 cards in the total array which didn't leave much for peripherals in the XT. On the other hand I might be thinking of the Epson QX-10 Valdocs :^)) ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 12 21:44:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 Message-ID: <199904130244.AA09414@world.std.com> <> Well, the two big signs that said <> <> |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| <> <> on the DECwest buildings in Bellevue, WA <> disappeared sometime in the last few days. <> <> Just big blanks there now, not even a Compaq, yet. Happend in Maynard two months ago at PK3 and LKG. I pass both every day. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 12 21:48:05 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Round 98 (was Re: 6502 vs Z80, round 97) In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:06:06 -0700) References: Message-ID: <19990413024805.14871.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mike Ford wrote: > One of the things I have noticed is that great similarity exists between a > couple of instruction sets, the 6502 and the Sparc, and the IBM 360 and > 68000. Kind of the classics of RISC and CISC, and I love them both. Um, what are you smoking, and where can I get some? :-) Having programmed all four of those processors, I would not be willing to concede much similarity between any two of the four. From mbg at world.std.com Mon Apr 12 21:47:36 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E Message-ID: <199904130247.AA12176@world.std.com> > Got to stick my nose in here, if you research it, you will find that >concentrated solutions of methylene chloride are a confirmed >carcinogenic. I'm sure... I didn't get a chance to check the Merck Manual... tonight's lab was just too complex and annoying... the instructor added steps to the already documented procedure, as well as modified others... and since it was a two-part lab (part I having been done the night I missed it for observing seder with my partner), I didn't have anything I needed which was produced during step I... so my lab partner and I had to do it tonight... >That said, I would still use it (if available), use gloves and put a fan >to blow the fumes away from me during assembly. But then, I do this kind >of stuff every day. My job. Absolutely... >Just be careful. Your too good to lose. Thanks... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 12 21:52:10 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: VERY OT: Win'98 splash screen In-Reply-To: <01be856c$fb0c44c0$a09ba6d1@the-general> (roblwill@usaor.net) References: <01be856c$fb0c44c0$a09ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <19990413025210.14910.qmail@brouhaha.com> > What I want to know is if anyone running Windows '98 could email me the > logo.sys file (I think it's only 120k or something close to that). Of course not. That would be copyright infringement. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Apr 12 17:57:08 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: VERY OT: Win'98 splash screen In-Reply-To: <01be856c$fb0c44c0$a09ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <199904130256.WAA24451@smtp.interlog.com> On 12 Apr 99 at 22:17, Jason Willgruber wrote: > Hi! > > I know that this is WAY off-topic, but I need some help: > > While "cleaning up" some files on his computer my dad accidentally deleted > the "LOGO.SYS" file. Now when he has no splash screen when booting. All > that's shown is the startup commands and the BIOS settings of the computer. > He wants me to fix it, but the only problem is that he doesn't have the > Windows '98 CD (came pre-loaded on the computer). > > What I want to know is if anyone running Windows '98 could email me the > logo.sys file (I think it's only 120k or something close to that). > > ThAnX! > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > > PS>> Please remember to change the email address to mine - this doesn't need > to be continued on the List.... > > Thought about it for an instance and decided "keep your eye on the throttle and your Big Mouth shut " ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From mbg at world.std.com Mon Apr 12 21:57:09 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Moving REALLY BIG IRON... Message-ID: <199904130257.AA18420@world.std.com> Recently I posted about some KS10s which were becoming available. I mentioned that I needed to mount a team to try to save them. Well, that part has been a success, and the move is currently set for two saturdays from now, pending acceptence from the current owners of the -10s. Per the current plans: This week I hope to be in attendence when the machines are turned off for the last time in their current home. After that I will being the process of staging the hardware for the move. This involves locking the heads on the disks, raising the leveling feet, removing cables and separating the cabinets. I'm not going to attempt to do it all... Carl Friend (of RCS/RI) and I will finish the pre-staging on friday the 23rd. On saturday the 24th, the team will assemble and simply roll all the stuff down to the loading dock and onto the truck were it will be secured for the move. I will be getting one of the machines. RCS/RI will be getting one, and the third is going to another group in Rhode Island. A couple of RP06s will go with each one. I will, of course, take pictures to document this major move. I also hope to do a write-up in a format similar to the one I did for the move of my more recent acquisitions (http://world.std.com/~mbg/move_report.html) I just wanted to assure everyone that they indeed were going to find homes and weren't going to end up at the crusher or in a landfill. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 12 22:10:20 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Well, I don't know. However, MS Word/Windows and /Macintosh has a strange > >> option: to have large white letters on a blue background instead of black > >> on white. This has nothing to do with any color settings, and no other > >> colors can be used in a similar way. This may have classic reasons. Anyone > >> know? > >Don't know the exact reason but that was the default color > >combination of the DOS version of MS Word (and every day I use > >the current version, I long for the old one). > I think this has something to do with a request for an enhancement made by > Jerry Pornelle believe it or not. I read something recenty where he > wrote about having gotten MS to add some special colour combination for him. White on blue wasn't the original for (DOS) Word, it was indeed an option in Word for DOS configuration, and yes, it came from a request by Jerry Pournelle to one of the developers. Jerry learned to like that color scheme from Q&A Write which he used for a while when he first started using MSDOS -- he'd been using Xywrite for some years with CP/M. He did mention it in last week's bit on byte.com -- I remember it from the original Byte columns and from talking to him at the weekly LASFS meetings when we could avoid arguments about politics. (He favors the existence of government, I don't). Damn, but I miss those arguments. Mostly because I remember California before the socialists took over -- and I can't return home to Los Angeles unless Sacramento is bulldozed under the swamp upon which it was built. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From fauradon at pclink.com Mon Apr 12 19:50:23 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Fw: Getting rid of old stuff... Message-ID: <000301be855b$d9e16ca0$0100a8c0@fauradon.mn.mediaone.net> Reply to the guy directly. If shipping is a problem I may be able to help... But first contact should be to Peter Seebach >----- Original Message ----- >From: Peter Seebach >Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers >Sent: Saturday, April 10, 1999 2:18 PM >Subject: Getting rid of old stuff... > > >> First off, if I owe you a copy of the 3b1 system software, let me know - I >> have a list of people to send this to, but I've been swamped and I may >have >> lost entries. >> >> Secondly, anyone (especially in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area) want a >bunch >> of old hardware? I have a passel of sun 3/80's, a 3/60, a 3/50, a couple >> of 4/110's, and two 3/160's, in varying states of disrepair. The 3/80's >> mostly need new NVRAM. I have memory for most of them, but not >necessarily >> all. I have a couple of monitors, and a handful of high- and low- >resolution >> graphics cards for the 3/80's. I think I even have a couple of early >color >> frame buffers. Also, about six of the old shoebox drive/tape bays. (The >> gray metal ones.) >> >> Cost: Free for the taking, or you pay shipping. My goal here is to get >> this stuff to people who will use it, or who can at least use it as spare >> parts, instead of having it recycled. I no longer have the time to play >> with as many old computers as I'd like. :( >> >> -s >> -- >> Copyright 1999, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net >> C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! >> Will work for interesting hardware. http://www.plethora.net/~seebs/ >> Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Apr 12 22:27:27 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M Message-ID: <4.1.19990412202323.009e9840@mcmanis.com> Dontcha just hate it when this happens? Here I am happily working away on an 8/E chassis with boards scavenged far and wide to get it up and running. In the course of which I'm using boards out of my 8/M that works find to replace questionable boards to reduce the number of variables in the equation. So the 8/E (with an 8/F front panel) is all up and running with my hodge podge of boards and I reassemble the 8/M, turn it on and the 'RUN' LED is stuck on. No response from the front panel halt switch state. Argh! --Chuck From hhacker at home.com Mon Apr 12 22:30:37 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Description: Catalog of 11/45 Cards Installed Message-ID: <124101be855d$ffc36200$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> So, I got a moment to list the 11/45 complement of cards mounted in the chassis. They read with the imprinted numberings properly oriented to the eye, and R to L they are: 8114 8115 8112 8113 8100 8101 8102 8103 8104 8105 8106 8108 8107 8109 There are no other cards installed. All but the 8109 fill the entire slot, while the 8109 fills the lower three socket ranks. While I should find these answers amidst some of the email I have archived over my tenure on the list, I know that some of you know the URL backwards. Care to help me out? Also, is it true that all 11/45 systems sported the operators console, LED's, switches, the works? William R. Buckley From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Apr 12 22:32:53 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Description: Catalog of 11/45 Cards Installed In-Reply-To: <124101be855d$ffc36200$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> from "Buck Savage" at Apr 12, 99 08:30:37 pm Message-ID: <199904130332.UAA14190@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi William: You need a copy of the DEC Field Guide. It's available on metalab, I'm sure someone else will pop up with the URL. In the meantime I've emailed you a copy of the guide directly. Mine might be out of date, Allison (Megan?) is working on an updated version. Good luck, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Apr 12 22:36:20 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Description: Catalog of 11/45 Cards Installed In-Reply-To: <124101be855d$ffc36200$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> from "Buck Savage" at Apr 12, 99 08:30:37 pm Message-ID: <199904130336.UAA14711@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Again William: > 8114 > 8115 > 8112 > 8113 > 8100 > 8101 > 8102 > 8103 > 8104 > 8105 > 8106 > 8108 > 8107 > 8109 Oh, and these cards are the standard 11/45 CPU set, plus the floating point extension. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 12 23:27:35 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <001801be8566$09078a00$0100c0a8@fuj03> Well, Allison, I now see why this discussion has led nowhere. We were addressing the same issue from different perspective. You were looking at the relatively short memory access strobe, while I was talking about the frequency at which they occur, as defined in the spec. I agree completely that the memory read access strobe, something on the order of /mreq + /rd (which should yield a more or less appropriate /memrd) is quite short and that the write strobe is probably a bit shorter. What I was doing by tying these strobes to the processor clock period (ticks, cycles, whatever you like) was finding a way in which the overall rate at which they occur could be discussed without getting into the gate-level strategy of building the strobes themselves. That is, after all, a matter of style, and quite personal. The fact remains, that the memory CYCLE is three clock ticks long, as defined in the spec (though I haven't looked at it in 15 years or so since I haven't yet unearthed my Zilog or Mostek data books) and if you look at the pictures you saw with your logic analyzer, you should have seen two read pulses of whatever lenght they were, spaced at very nearly 750 ns, each time you saw the execution of an absolute jump, or any other instruction which consists of an opcode followed by a 16-bit address. The same is true of writes. They take one memory cycle, which is three clock ticks long, for each byte, although the memory write strobe is a mite shorter than the read strobe, IIRC, which I might not, but . . . What it comes down to is that the non-M1 memory cycles of a typical 2 MHz 6502 take one clock tick, or 500 ns, while the actual memory read strobe can be as short as you like within the window during which valid addresses are available and ending when the Phase-2 clock falls. As you've pointed out, the M1 processor cycle, comprised of the opcode fetch (a shortened memory read) and the refresh cycle, (during which the instruction was decoded and the memory refresh strobe asserted concurrently with the 7-bit refresh counter), was a bit longer, one or two clock ticks, and more if wait states were inserted as they often were for M1 cycles. Nevertheless, commonly used instructions were MUCH faster on the 2 MHz 6502, than on the 4 MHz Z-80. Offsetting this, however, the Z-80 had lots of instructions which operated on internal registers, leaving memory idle. If you executed a direct jump, which on either processor meant "load the program counter with the following two bytes," The Z-80 required at least five, and perhaps six clock ticks to get to the first address fetch, which took, overall three clock ticks, followed by another three for the second byte. This would amount to 12 clock ticks if my reckoning is correct for the AMPRO Little Board, of which I also have a couple, and on that board, running a 4 MHz Z-80A, you will probably measure three microseconds for those twelve clock ticks (T-states) which is EXACTLY how long a 1 MHz 6502 takes to do that. Hence, I conclude it is just about twice as fast for that type of instruction on a 2 MHz 6502. How long the memory strobes are doesn't affect the duration of the cycles at all. After looking a what seems like about a billion lines of code over the years since I saw my first one back in the very early '60's (CDC-6400) I've concluded that most code I've seen underutilizes the internal resources and overutilizes the external ones. Code like that favors processors with more time-efficient use of the external resources. Hence, my assertion that there's reason to believe the 6502 at 2 MHz could outrun the 4 MHz Z-80 in more or less typical code and in a more or less typical hardware environment. Code written to make better than average utilization of the internals of a Z-80 might fare better against equally well-written code on a 6502. I'm comfortable with the reality that I'll probably never know for certain. Since neither processor is particularly important these days, not terribly important to me either. None of this is really worth getting all excited about because, by the way, in spite of its "better" performance, (by my assessment) the 6502 didn't accomplish more useful work on MY behalf, because I used a Z-80 running CP/M every chance I got due to the abundance of really decent tools and office automation software. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 8:24 PM Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing >from my ampro LB using calibrated logic analyser... > > Tc = 1/clock z80A 4mhz or 250ns (clock is symetric) > >address stable before Memreq/ ~80nS (occurs 0.5clocks earlier > than read or wr -delays) > WR/ width 210ns (roughly 1 clock -delays) > RD/ width (M1) 290us (roughly 1.5 clocks -delays > RD/ width (other) 390us (roughly two clocks -delays) > >So the longest memory use cycle is address setup+ RD/ or about 470us. >Even the rom chip select was active for less than 400ns and that includes >propagation delays. the 4mhz z80 wants memories with access times in the >250ns range. > >In terms of memory bandwidth used the z80 runs from a high of 80% on M1 >cycles (due to z80 providing memory refersh) to around less than 50% on >other read or write cycles. Refresh is not a required signal for operation >with static rams so the M1 memeory bandwidh can be less than 50%. This >set of statements is also inaccurate as it is worst case for some >instuctions. In those cases like ADD DE,HL that takes many cycles but the >only bus useage is during M1 so the average bandwidth can be very low. > >To get 750ns I need to slow the clock to about less than 2mhz or add the >time for m1 and refresh at 4mhz. In either case it's apples and oranges. > >The 6502 @2mhz would want 300ns memory. An aside to this is that the >6502 like many cpus use both edges of the clock to trigger functions via >a two phase internal clock so there are roughly 4 phase pulses per cycle >internally. the external timing of the 6502 looks simpler due to it's >use of signals and the synchronous nature of the machine. this is wny >external clock frequency is so meaningless. Instruction execution time >is the only measure. > >the 6502 memory useage is far higher as it is active for half the >processor cycle so it's roughly 50% in all cases. This makes hidden >refresh of Drams easier with the regular cycle timing but allows less >time to achieve it. If the refresh is done during the inactive portion >of the 6502 cycle then memory bandwidth nears 100% use. The exception >is if the memory is fast enough it can be done with post read refresh >(cas after ras). Static rams will run at ~50% of bus bandwidth. > >Allison > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 12 23:37:14 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: IBM Programmed Symbols Adapter In-Reply-To: <199904130242.WAA20014@smtp.interlog.com> (lwalker@mail.interlog.com) References: <199904130242.WAA20014@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <19990413043714.15429.qmail@brouhaha.com> > > I just picked up an IBM 3270 Personal Computer Programmed Symbols Adapter > > card in the box. The box says that it's "an option that provides the > That sounds like a card which could enable my otherwise useless IBM > monitor meant for the 3270XT. There was a previous discussion on this You'd need the PC/3270 card first, to plug the Programmed Symbols Adapter into. The PSA won't do *anything* useful by itself. From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Apr 12 21:20:49 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: 6502 vs Z80, round 97 In-Reply-To: <002201be853b$2a83d4c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: >It's true, what you say about the value of discussing performance without >discussing the task. Keep in mind, though, that Motorola's favorite trick >was to boast how fast its processors could execute no-op's. One of my earliest real lessons in programming came from attempting to use nested macro's of nop instructions for a delay loop. From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Apr 12 23:36:40 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Software collectors list In-Reply-To: <199904130156.VAA06333@smtp.interlog.com> References: <4.1.19990412161019.00b8bb30@mcmanis.com> <199904122231.PAA03538@saul9.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I have been thinking about and looking for a list like this one, except instead of hardware collecting, it would be about collecting software. I haven't found any existing list, so I am getting motivated to start a list on one of the various services that will host a list for free (free free ideally, but I don't have a problem with an ad supported list server either). I have a fair amount of feedback that such a list would be desirable, so other than a charter which I am still thinking on, two basic questions need answering in the next few days so I can get going. If anybody knows of an existing list targeted to software collectors, please tell me before I run around trying to do it again. Anybody have some suggestions for a list server host (either free or ad supported, but reliable and easy are top rec's)? From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Apr 12 23:40:01 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Moving REALLY BIG IRON... In-Reply-To: <199904130257.AA18420@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990412214001.00929e80@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:57 PM 4/12/99 -0400, Megan wrote: > >Recently I posted about some KS10s which were becoming available. > >I mentioned that I needed to mount a team to try to save them. > >Well, that part has been a success, and the move is currently set for two >saturdays from now, pending acceptence from the current owners of the >-10s. >I just wanted to assure everyone that they indeed were going to find >homes and weren't going to end up at the crusher or in a landfill. Thanks for your efforts and the update! Regards; -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 13 00:41:52 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: digital bites the dust, finally In-Reply-To: <3712A7C6.BDA76A00@banet.net> References: Message-ID: >Heard on the radio tonight, that "Compaq was having problems, amd was >hoping that it's 'acquired' "Digital" division would help it out.." I'm kind of surprised how well Compaq seems to be pushing the Digital stuff! >Wonder what Bob Palmer's doing these days ( doubt he's lunching at >"Grappa" > in Maynard Ma.) He is on AMD's Board of Directors as of a week or two ago. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Apr 12 23:53:14 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Round 98 (was Re: 6502 vs Z80, round 97) In-Reply-To: <19990413024805.14871.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (message from Mike Ford on Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:06:06 -0700) Message-ID: >Mike Ford wrote: >> One of the things I have noticed is that great similarity exists between a >> couple of instruction sets, the 6502 and the Sparc, and the IBM 360 and >> 68000. Kind of the classics of RISC and CISC, and I love them both. > >Um, what are you smoking, and where can I get some? :-) > >Having programmed all four of those processors, I would not be willing >to concede much similarity between any two of the four. Maybe you forgot to enhale, there aren't more than a handfull of different instructions between the pairs I mention. I haven't programmed the Sparc, but I did spend about two weeks testing the feasibility of porting a 65C02 assembly language program to the Sparc, and it looked very very good. As for the 360/68k, IBM made a varient of the 68k that ran 360 code native. Wow this sure is sounding like a bunch of old coots isn't it? ;) From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Apr 12 23:55:56 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: VERY OT: Win'98 splash screen In-Reply-To: <19990413025210.14910.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <01be856c$fb0c44c0$a09ba6d1@the-general> (roblwill@usaor.net) <01be856c$fb0c44c0$a09ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: >> What I want to know is if anyone running Windows '98 could email me the >> logo.sys file (I think it's only 120k or something close to that). > >Of course not. That would be copyright infringement. I can think of a couple Mac sites that have, "amusing", replacement splash screens for 98 free to download. Update Dad's Bill Box and see what happens. The one with the snail is especially nice with 98. From gregorym at cadvision.com Tue Apr 13 00:03:37 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Commodore vs Apple [WAS: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990412230336.006c0534@cadvision.com> This must have varied significantly with geography. In Ontario, Canada, where I grew up, Commodore was king, both at home and in schools. Most schools' first computers were PETs, either alone or in clusters, followed by C-64s. There were some Apples around, but they were much more expensive (even to schools) than Commodores. Proof of this was the strength of the Commodore (TPUG, Waterloo Basic) and Amiga communities in Ontario. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 13 01:18:20 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Message-ID: I think it is now safe to say that the State of Massachusetts is the enemy of Classic Computer enthusiasts everywhere! http://cnn.com/NATURE/9904/07/computers.potholes.ap/ "We want people to take those computers out of the attics, get them out of the landfills and make use of the good parts," said Rick Lombardi, spokesman for the department. "And God knows, we have plenty of potholes to fill in New England." This is sickening! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 13 00:20:33 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Commodore vs Apple [WAS: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive Message-ID: <002401be856d$5b630ca0$0100c0a8@fuj03> When I referred to middle schools, I meant the "thing" that's in place here in the Denver Public Schools in place of what was junior high school when I attended it (in the same building, by the way). Your observation supports my notion that schools got into the Apples because they'd been given quite a number of them for free. Apple probably couldn't get a big write-off for donating things to the Canadian schools. There's no reason why the Commodore machines couldn't have evolved into someting useful That keyboard on the early models might have been a deterrent for the schools, though, since the Denver schools really teach little more than typing with these computers at the middle school level. From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 13 01:13:41 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: VERY OT: Win'98 splash screen References: <01be856c$fb0c44c0$a09ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <3712E095.248C65D2@rain.org> Jason Willgruber wrote: > > Hi! > > I know that this is WAY off-topic, but I need some help: > > While "cleaning up" some files on his computer my dad accidentally deleted > the "LOGO.SYS" file. Now when he has no splash screen when booting. All > that's shown is the startup commands and the BIOS settings of the computer. > He wants me to fix it, but the only problem is that he doesn't have the > Windows '98 CD (came pre-loaded on the computer). If it came pre-loaded on the machine (as opposed to being on the machine when he got it from someone else), you should find all the windows files necessary to re-install Windows in C:/windows/options/cabs. I believe the MS PowerToys will allow you to retrieve just the file(s) you want. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Apr 13 01:30:23 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Announcement! In-Reply-To: <001901be854f$54c59ca0$4e8d42d8@mmcmanus> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 1999, mike wrote: > Where is Santa Clara? Is It by San Fransico or LA? In the Silicon Valley. Next to San Jose (~35 miles south of San Francisco). See http://santaclara.org/indexed.html Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Apr 13 01:49:29 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:06 2005 Subject: VCF preview Message-ID: Here's a quick overview on the things currently in the works at VCF central: * Exhibitor guidelines for the VCF exhibit - this year we want YOU to bring the machines to exhibit at the VCF. What's in it for you? We'll be judging each entry on a number of criteria in multiple categories. The best in each category will be honored with 1st, 2nd and 3rd place ribbons, and each Best in Class will be eligible to compete for the coveted Best of Show award. Prizes will be awarded!! * A contest for web site owners to win free passes and other junk by referring the most visitors to the VCF web site. Don't have a web site? Make one! The top winners will have prominent links to their site placed in a prominent location of the VCF web site. Think of all the hits you could get! * Another round of the Nerd Trivia Challenge - the NTC was a big hit last year. This year there will be even more challenging questions. A pre-qualifying quiz will be posted to the VCF web site in the coming weeks. The top pre-qualifying entrants will compete on the first day of VCF, and the top three entrants will appear in the actual Nerd Trivia Challenge on Sunday, October 3rd. Last year, the prize for first place included among other cool things $50 and a Java ring. * Some great speakers are being lined up! The current line up will be posted to the web site shortly (its currently undergoing construction for VCF 3.0). And much more! Stay tuned. P.S. If you'd like to be added to the VCF mailing list to receive updates as they are announced, go over to http://www.vintage.org/vcf/maillist.htm now and fill out the form (the VCF does not share your information with anyone, nor do we spam you!) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Apr 13 01:55:16 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: IBM Programmed Symbols Adapter In-Reply-To: <199904130242.WAA20014@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > That sounds like a card which could enable my otherwise useless IBM > monitor meant for the 3270XT. There was a previous discussion on this > machine a while back. I think there were something like 5 cards in the > total array which didn't leave much for peripherals in the XT. On the > other hand I might be thinking of the Epson QX-10 Valdocs :^)) I believe its more like 3 cards as I have one and have examined its innards. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue Apr 13 02:20:57 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <199904112352.QAA27406@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::I don't think Commodore was a factor in this aspect of the process. The > ::Commodore machines weren't "accessible" enough, in that there was no really > ::convenient way to install the additional hardware people wanted, so nobody > ::(well, almost) built it. > > I disagree very strongly with that statement (in a nice way :-). Apples > definitely had a nice selection of hardware add-ons, but there were also > C64 80-column cards (Batteries Included made some), I have one of those. Very nice! I haven't played with it much, but it has BASIC 4.0 in ROM, too. The characters are quite readable even on the television. It's a B.I.-80, and a friend found it in an Ontario junk shop. The manuals are stamped: DISCARD FROM Central Technical School LIBRARY Toronto Board of Education I don't know what the heck kind of library keeps C64 80-column cards on their shelves, though. ;) I also have a combination 80-column display adapter and CP/M cartridge for the C64, which I don't have the power supply or software for. Of course, there were also 80-column cards for the VIC-20, and of course many PET models were built with 80 column displays... > hard drives (first the Lt. Kernal, then the CMD series), What period are we talking about? You seem to limit yourself to the C64. Commodore made hard drives for the PET series. The CBM D9060 and D9090 come to mind. > RAM expansions (first the Commodore REUs and then BBGRAM, RAMLink, geoRAM), VIC-1210, VIC-1111, many third party VIC RAM expanders, some with more than 64K on board... > modems (first Commodore VICMODEMS and 1600 series, then HesModem, Mighty Mo, > etc.), There were 300bps IEEE-488 modems in the PET era. > printer interfaces (Cardco, Xetec; even some Centronics ones) I have a printer interface for my PET 2001 that works just dandy with my HP LaserJet 4L. > and accelerators (TurboMaster, Flash-8 and SuperCPU). Damn! None of those for VIC or PET, that I'm aware of. :) > Many compared quite favourably with the Apple's assortment. This may be true, but the Apple's slot bus was a darn nice thing. Putting cards inside the case, without need of an external slot board, and without need for multitudes of 'wall-wart' power supplies is definitely a plus in the Apple's favour, too. You had to be a lot more careful about peripheral and expansion selection with Commodore's machines. > Moreover, the Commodore hardware has always been superbly documented -- > witness the Programmer's Reference Guides on all the major 8-bit Commodores I haven't seen the official PET Programmer's Reference Guide. Was there one? The VIC's Programmer's Reference Guide is excellent, BTW. > But they didn't market-clash with the Apple except possibly in the education > market, which Apple soundly won I disagree with this. This is highly, highly regional. I think Apple only won in the US. By all indications, Commodore won in Ontario and much of the rest of Canada. I think Acorn won in the UK. Where I live, though, there didn't seem to be a "winner" until the PC clone era. When I was starting high school, labs were filled with PETs, TRS-80s, Ataris... but I rarely saw Apples. Too expensive for schools. By the time I got to CEGEP (not sure what you'd call that in the rest of the world), the PC had won. But the CEGEP I attended had labs and labs full of... Commodore PCs. (Aiiiiiiii!) > (depending on whom you talk to, this is either attributed to Apple's > aggressiveness or Commodore's passivity). Apple may have been trying for > the home market at one stage, but they never made any offerings that could > be explicitly marked "home computer". I saw a lot of Apples in homes, though. Of course, I lived in an affluent neighbourhood where Apples had snob value. Everyone else had Commodores. Actually, a lot of those "Apples" weren't. Apple clones were at least, if not more, common than the genuine article. Apple clones were affordable for many people. Apples weren't affordable for most people. VICs and C64s were affordable for most people. And TI-99s were affordable even for bums on the street, which is probably why I keep running across the main units and never any peripherals, software, books, etc. The local supermarket used to give them away as prizes. > -- > -------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser Database Programmer/Administrative Computing > Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 > ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 > -- A dean is to faculty as a hydrant is to a dog. -- Alfred Kahn -------------- -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue Apr 13 02:48:07 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <002401be8483$1e8ea680$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > In all the time I was involved in the microcomputer industry, I never saw a > single Commodore ad that wasn't printed in a trade publication of some sort. What!? You mean there was a part of the world that WASN'T completely saturated in Commodores? What part of the world do you live in? So I guess you missed "I adore my 64", the "Sweet 16" ads, and William Shatner shilling for the VIC-20? Of course, I can still remember _Amiga_ ads on television. I wish I had had a VCR back then, because some of those ads were pretty good. "Betcha can't do that with your Mac, Jack!" > Dick -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Apr 13 03:18:24 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: DG AViion stuff Message-ID: <007c01be8586$3b107a00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Someone wanted stuff for the M88K Data General Aviion's running DGUX. There is a fair bit at this site.. http://ftp.avlib.clemson.edu/avlib/pub/88k/ Hope this helps Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ #: 1970476 Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 Mobile: 61-411-623-978 Fax: 61-8-8633-0104 From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Apr 13 03:32:20 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Computer Storage Message-ID: <80256752.002F0DAA.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Dear All I am thinking of renting a building in which to store my computer collection, together with that of a friend who has gone to Canada [Bob Manners, for P850UG people]. The building is very simply constructed - single brick walls and sheet asbestos roof - and currently has no supply of electricity or gas, but appears fairly dry (at least at present). Do people on either of the two lists have suggestions for: What precautions should I take in storing computers here? Do I need to insulate / heat the building? Should I install a dehumidifier (I think I can get hold of one)? Do I need (for example) to wrap each computer up in plastic with a packet of silica gel? The rent is very cheap - L2 (about $3.30) per square foot per year, and the building is only 10 min walk from my house. With luck, this will mean that I shall soon have a house with room for me as well as my junk... Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bloedem Volke unverstaendlich treiben wir des Lebens Spiel. Grade das, was unabwendlich fruchtet unserm Spott als Ziel. Magst es Kinder-Rache nennen an des Daseins tiefem Ernst; Wirst das Leben besser kennen, wenn du uns verstehen lernst. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Apr 13 03:45:29 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Computer Storage In-Reply-To: <80256752.002F0DAA.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Apr 1999 Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > I am thinking of renting a building in which to store my computer > collection, together with that of a friend who has gone to Canada [Bob > Manners, for P850UG people]. The building is very simply constructed > - single brick walls and sheet asbestos roof - and currently has no > supply of electricity or gas, but appears fairly dry (at least at > present). > > Do people on either of the two lists have suggestions for: > > What precautions should I take in storing computers here? First of all, a rugged lock on the front door. > Do I need to insulate / heat the building? Its not really necessary. Computers store well in wide temperature ranges. I had many of my machines stored in the top level of a barn enclosed with corrugated tin that would get to probably 130 degrees Fahrenheit in the summer time (probably even higher!) for years and they came out fine when I finally moved them to their current location. Colder temperatures would be better I imagine, but then there's the humidity issues, which leads to... > Should I install a dehumidifier (I think I can get hold of one)? UK is a wet place right? I would do so. You'll have to check the bucket each week probably. I knew a guy who kept a dehumidifier in the basement of his San Francisco (damp environment) house which was his computer room and he pulled a gallon or two out every week. > Do I need (for example) to wrap each computer up in plastic with a packet of > silica gel? That would not hurt, and would in fact be great if you want to go through all the trouble. Your real concern will be keeping your books and manuals dry. > The rent is very cheap - L2 (about $3.30) per square foot per year, > and the building is only 10 min walk from my house. With luck, this > will mean that I shall soon have a house with room for me as well as > my junk... Sounds great. I would just make sure to seal up all the cracks and put weather-stripping around the door to make the place airtight. That will help in the long run. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Apr 13 03:52:28 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990412202323.009e9840@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: >Dontcha just hate it when this happens? Here I am happily working away on >an 8/E chassis with boards scavenged far and wide to get it up and running. >In the course of which I'm using boards out of my 8/M that works find to >replace questionable boards to reduce the number of variables in the >equation. So the 8/E (with an 8/F front panel) is all up and running with >my hodge podge of boards and I reassemble the 8/M, turn it on and the 'RUN' >LED is stuck on. No response from the front panel halt switch state. Hey, DEC field service lives on. ;) Sorry to our former or current DECy Techies, but I am reminded of the old joke: How long does it take a DEC field service person to change a flat tire? Depends on how many flat tires they brought with them. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Apr 13 04:01:14 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Computer Storage References: <80256752.002F0DAA.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <000501be858c$3012b2c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Tuesday, 13 April 1999 6:02 Subject: Computer Storage > Do I need to insulate / heat the building? Not sure where you are, but I imagine insulation would be a good idea. My experience with electronics/computers is that ideal storage is at a relatively constant temperature, so extremes of heat (ie over 35c) or cold (much below 10c) should be avoided where possible. Some stuff is more tolerant, our Vax 6310 kept right on going despite the a/c failing last summer during a long weekend. It was 44C in the computer room on the Monday morning. The netware server in the same room died when it's power supply failed, presumably due to overheating! > Should I install a dehumidifier (I think I can get hold of one)? If the place is damp you need to either seal up each machine with dehumidifying agent inside the seal, or dehumidify the environment it's in. Dust/spiders/roaches/mice etc can be a problem with long term storage too. > Do I need (for example) to wrap each computer up in plastic with a packet of > silica gel? That's one way..... > The rent is very cheap - L2 (about $3.30) per square foot per year, and the > building is only 10 min walk from my house. With luck, this will mean that I > shall soon have a house with room for me as well as my junk... How big is this building? At that rate you could use quite a bit of it without breaking the bank... That is cheap. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ #: 1970476 Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 Mobile: 61-411-623-978 Fax: 61-8-8633-0104 From wanderer at bos.nl Tue Apr 13 05:58:27 1999 From: wanderer at bos.nl (Edward Groenenberg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Moving REALLY BIG IRON... References: <199904130257.AA18420@world.std.com> Message-ID: <37132353.695@bos.nl> Hello Megan, Please do, as the other move report is very nice indeed. Please make plenty of pictures, they are alway's usefull. Ed Megan wrote: > > Recently I posted about some KS10s which were becoming available. > > I mentioned that I needed to mount a team to try to save them. > > Well, that part has been a success, and the move is currently set for two > saturdays from now, pending acceptence from the current owners of the > -10s. > > Per the current plans: > > This week I hope to be in attendence when the machines are turned off for > the last time in their current home. After that I will being the process > of staging the hardware for the move. This involves locking the heads on > the disks, raising the leveling feet, removing cables and separating the > cabinets. > > I'm not going to attempt to do it all... Carl Friend (of RCS/RI) and I > will finish the pre-staging on friday the 23rd. On saturday the 24th, > the team will assemble and simply roll all the stuff down to the loading > dock and onto the truck were it will be secured for the move. > > I will be getting one of the machines. RCS/RI will be getting one, > and the third is going to another group in Rhode Island. A couple of > RP06s will go with each one. > > I will, of course, take pictures to document this major move. I also > hope to do a write-up in a format similar to the one I did for the move of > my more recent acquisitions (http://world.std.com/~mbg/move_report.html) > > I just wanted to assure everyone that they indeed were going to find > homes and weren't going to end up at the crusher or in a landfill. > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | > | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | > | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | > | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Tue Apr 13 06:25:12 1999 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Computer Storage In-Reply-To: <000501be858c$3012b2c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> References: <80256752.002F0DAA.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> <000501be858c$3012b2c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: > > The rent is very cheap - L2 (about $3.30) per square foot per year, and >the > > building is only 10 min walk from my house. With luck, this will mean >that I > > shall soon have a house with room for me as well as my junk... > >How big is this building? At that rate you could use quite a bit of it >without breaking the bank... That is cheap. Where exactly are you located in the UK. I'm in London. This is quite interesting. Nasos. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Apr 13 06:39:39 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Apr 13, 1999 1:52:28 am" Message-ID: <199904131139.HAA02985@pechter.dyndns.org> > >Dontcha just hate it when this happens? Here I am happily working away on > >an 8/E chassis with boards scavenged far and wide to get it up and running. > >In the course of which I'm using boards out of my 8/M that works find to > >replace questionable boards to reduce the number of variables in the > >equation. So the 8/E (with an 8/F front panel) is all up and running with > >my hodge podge of boards and I reassemble the 8/M, turn it on and the 'RUN' > >LED is stuck on. No response from the front panel halt switch state. > > Hey, DEC field service lives on. ;) > > Sorry to our former or current DECy Techies, but I am reminded of the old joke: > > How long does it take a DEC field service person to change a flat tire? > > Depends on how many flat tires they brought with them. What do they do when they run out of tires. They change the alternator because it must be a power supply problem. Bill Pechter EX-DEC Field Service... --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Apr 13 07:10:58 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Computer Storage In-Reply-To: <000501be858c$3012b2c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> References: <80256752.002F0DAA.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <199904131210.WAA18118@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 18:31 13/04/99 +0930, Geoff Roberts wrote: >Some stuff is more tolerant, our Vax 6310 kept right on going despite the >a/c failing last summer during a long weekend. It was 44C in the computer >room on the Monday morning. The netware server in the same room died when >it's power supply failed, presumably due to overheating! Well I can attest that a VAX-11/780 will run (faultlessly) for a whole weekend at between 40 and 50C (air conditioning failure) and also (faultlessly) at 20C whilst having water falling on it from a flooded floor above (also for a weekend). At the next job you discover that uVAX-IIs are game to run in about 12" of very cold water (that really belonged in the heat exchanger in the room but managed to escape). Hint, if this ever happens to you do not, under any circumstances, be the dummy that opens the computer room door - you should delegate this. Water at 4C is f'ing cold :-). Second hint, don't replace the plastic filter that failed in the heat exchanger with an equivalent fitting, otherwise you'll be called out a few evenings later when the water level in the computer room exceeds 2'. This error is magnified if you can't delegate (see hint 1). The uVAX-II in the BA213 (world box) will have drowned, but the uVAX-II in the H9640 (not sure of the part number here) will still be running, but the bottom RA81 won't be.... Extra hint for young players, do not build your computer room above the mouse rooms. The computer centre was part of a World Standard Biomedical research organization. All the water from the computer room will contaminate the mouse rooms and the cost of all the mice that had to be destroyed was nearly an order of magnitude more than the replacement cost of two uVAX-IIs at 1986 prices (ie lots). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Apr 13 07:14:08 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M In-Reply-To: <199904131139.HAA02985@pechter.dyndns.org> References: Message-ID: <199904131214.WAA18315@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 07:39 13/04/99 -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: >> Sorry to our former or current DECy Techies, but I am reminded of the old joke: >> >> How long does it take a DEC field service person to change a flat tire? >> >> Depends on how many flat tires they brought with them. > >What do they do when they run out of tires. >They change the alternator because it must be a power supply problem. I thought the joke went something like: Customer (to FS droid): What took you so long, this was an urgent call. FS droid: Well I had a flat tyre and I changed the other three before I found the one that was flat... With apologies to all the good DEC FS guys that I have worked with over the years (and no apology for the one or two who were worse than useless - the TE16 on fire being the best (worst?) experience). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 13 08:01:04 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M In-Reply-To: <199904131214.WAA18315@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: > FS droid: Well I had a flat tyre and I changed the other three before I > found the one that was flat... > > With apologies to all the good DEC FS guys that I have worked with over the > years (and no apology for the one or two who were worse than useless - the > TE16 on fire being the best (worst?) experience). And back at CSSE we used to laugh at how the bad tires would be put back in the chevy kit to be sent out on a ford job! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 13 08:05:44 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Computer Storage In-Reply-To: <199904131210.WAA18118@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: I had similar with an 11/23+ in the Mill (MLO3-6/B8) where it ran for three weeks becuase of AC failure. The good news is it only hit 95F (~35C). I made sure all the fans were 100%! It ran fine but, I melted. Allison From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Apr 12 22:39:08 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M References: <199904131214.WAA18315@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <003d01be855f$393deea0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: Huw Davies To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 9:44 PM Subject: Re: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M > With apologies to all the good DEC FS guys that I have worked with over the > years (and no apology for the one or two who were worse than useless - the > TE16 on fire being the best (worst?) experience). I'd really love to hear about that one.....:^) Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Apr 13 08:26:19 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Software collectors list References: <4.1.19990412161019.00b8bb30@mcmanis.com> <199904122231.PAA03538@saul9.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <371345FB.9230DD73@idirect.com> >Mike Ford wrote: > I have been thinking about and looking for a list like this one, except > instead of hardware collecting, it would be about collecting software. I > haven't found any existing list, so I am getting motivated to start a list > on one of the various services that will host a list for free (free free > ideally, but I don't have a problem with an ad supported list server > either). I have a fair amount of feedback that such a list would be > desirable, so other than a charter which I am still thinking on, two basic > questions need answering in the next few days so I can get going. > > If anybody knows of an existing list targeted to software collectors, > please tell me before I run around trying to do it again. > > Anybody have some suggestions for a list server host (either free or ad > supported, but reliable and easy are top rec's)? Jerome Fine replies: I would be quite interested in this proposed software list if there is any interest in RT-11 (I am an Addict as most of you know). Sorry I can't help with the other questions since I am just a PC dummy and stuck back 10 years ago with RT-11 and no internet understanding. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Apr 12 22:58:35 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Computer Storage References: <80256752.002F0DAA.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> <199904131210.WAA18118@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <004101be8561$e9979560$f17d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: Huw Davies To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 9:40 PM Subject: Re: Computer Storage > At 18:31 13/04/99 +0930, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > >Some stuff is more tolerant, our Vax 6310 kept right on going despite the > >a/c failing last summer during a long weekend. It was 44C in the computer > >room on the Monday morning. The netware server in the same room died when > >it's power supply failed, presumably due to overheating! > > Well I can attest that > At the next job you discover that uVAX-IIs are game to run in about 12" of > very cold water (that really belonged in the heat exchanger in the room but > managed to escape). The problem with the air conditioner concerned was that it had some kind of problem that made it freeze solid, (brand new spilt system too!) to the point where the fan wouldn't run. At some time after that, the whole thing died, and the huge block of ice melted all over the Netware server and it's UPS which were directly underneath the wallmounted air conditioner. As near as we can figure, both kept working despite the resultant miniflood. However, the loss of the A/C resulted in a drastic increase in temperature, which evaporated the water, creating a super saturated environment at the stated 44c or so, since the room was effectively sealed. This was too much for the power supply in the server and it died. The server has since been replaced, (It's now my workstation) the Vax is still going. They don't make 'em like they used to. > cost of all the mice that had to be > destroyed was nearly an order of magnitude more than the replacement cost > of two uVAX-IIs at 1986 prices (ie lots). The mice had to be built to government specifications I suppose? ROFL. Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Apr 13 08:35:54 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 References: <199904120021.RAA10336@oa.ptloma.edu> <9904130209.ZM26531@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3713483A.519BA535@idirect.com> >Pete Turnbull wrote: > I started on the Z80, then 6502, followed by ARM, 68K, 6809, 8048, PDP11, > MIPS in no particular order. I still like the Z80 and 6502, but the ARM is > one of my favourites. I've never written any serious code for x86, and > what I've seen of the architecture fills me with loathing ;-) Jerome Fine replies: I had an OLD 286 back when the 486 was already old. Just for fun, I re-wrote some PRIME number programs from VMS in FORTRAN to Turbo C. The most fun was in taking the inner loop routines and converting to assembler. I learned a lot about the x86 architecture. While at least I had a lot more memory immediately available to save the tables (about 400 Kbytes - much more than on the PDP-11) the addressing reminded me a bit of the old CDC 6600. I agree that the old x86 memory usage is very bad for sizes more than 64 KBytes, but I seem to get the impression that under the 32 bit memory map on the 586 machines (I have not done ANY programming, so I am probably wrong) when in W95/98, there is a substantial address space available. Am I wrong? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 13 08:42:54 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 In-Reply-To: <3713483A.519BA535@idirect.com> References: <199904120021.RAA10336@oa.ptloma.edu> <9904130209.ZM26531@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990413084254.00fad3e0@vpwisfirewall> At 09:35 AM 4/13/99 -0400, Jerome Fine wrote: >but I seem to get the impression that under the 32 bit >memory map on the 586 machines (I have not done ANY programming, >so I am probably wrong) when in W95/98, there is a substantial address >space available. Am I wrong? Thread veering off-topic, but memory resembling a 32-bit space appeared with the Windows 3.1 add-on known as "Win32s", circa late 1994 or so. - John From danburrows at mindspring.com Tue Apr 13 08:36:02 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Restoring an 8/E Message-ID: <00bd01be85b2$c9d0f4a0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >>That said, I would still use it (if available), use gloves and put a fan >>to blow the fumes away from me during assembly. But then, I do this kind >>of stuff every day. My job. > If you expect to get a lot on you use at least 2 layers of the usual lab gloves. They dissolve in methylene chloride. I commonly will use 3 layers and change them often. Then to I also end up using other much nastier solvents at them same time. 1,1,1 trichlor. will dissolve gloves in about 30 sec. and if not used in a good fume hood will give you a bad solvent headache in a short time. I can always tell how good each customers fume hoods are when I use it. Dan From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Apr 13 08:45:16 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Description: Catalog of 11/45 Cards Installed Message-ID: <990413094516.20c004c6@trailing-edge.com> >>So, I got a moment to list the 11/45 complement of cards mounted in >>the chassis. They read with the imprinted numberings properly >>oriented to the eye, and R to L they are: >You need a copy of the DEC Field Guide. It's available on metalab, I'm >sure someone else will pop up with the URL. http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/field-guide.txt -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Apr 13 09:06:48 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 In-Reply-To: <3713483A.519BA535@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Apr 13, 99 09:35:54 am Message-ID: <199904131406.HAA10196@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1344 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990413/af149fca/attachment.ksh From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Apr 13 07:38:16 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Computer Storage Message-ID: <80256752.0045E1AF.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> I'll reply to Geoff, since he has covered more points than others. >> Do I need to insulate / heat the building? > > Not sure where you are, but I imagine insulation would be a good idea. My > experience with electronics/computers is that ideal storage is at a > relatively constant temperature, so extremes of heat (ie over 35c) or cold > (much below 10c) should be avoided where possible. I don't think it'll get over 35 deg C, even in a hot summer, although the thin roof may act like a solar panel. To look at it another way, domestic air conditioning is almost unknown here in the UK. (Nasos - I'm at Coalville, about 5 mi NW of M1 Jn 22) In winter, temperatures of -2 deg C are common, and -10 is not unheard-of. So that sounds like insulation would be a good idea. I am unlikely to operate computers in this building - no electricity or comms services as yet, so it would be expensive. I shall look into elec costs... > Some stuff is more tolerant, our Vax 6310 kept right on going despite the > a/c failing last summer during a long weekend. It was 44C in the computer > room on the Monday morning. The netware server in the same room died when > it's power supply failed, presumably due to overheating! Ha! I must admit I'd have thought that humidity would be more of a problem than temperature. An argument in favour of electric heating rather than gas, I suppose... >> Should I install a dehumidifier (I think I can get hold of one)? > > If the place is damp you need to either seal up each machine with > dehumidifying agent inside the seal, or dehumidify the environment > it's in. Dust/spiders/roaches/mice etc can be a problem with long term > storage too. I think my parents have a dehumidifier they no longer use. Again, electricity is needed - I'll try and plumb it in to discharge on the ground outside for water disposal. >> Do I need (for example) to wrap each computer up in plastic with a packet >> of silica gel? > > That's one way..... I was afraid of that. Dehumidifier is probably less work, but more money long-term... I think that controlled environment of some sort is probably more necessary for books/manuals etc. than for hardware (if you'll forgive the qualified absolute). >> The rent is very cheap - L2 (about $3.30) per square foot per year, and >> the building is only 10 min walk from my house. With luck, this will mean >> that I shall soon have a house with room for me as well as my junk... > > How big is this building? At that rate you could use quite a bit of it > without breaking the bank... That is cheap. Perhaps I wasn't clear. It's all or nothing. 300 sq ft for L600 ($1000) per annum. (FWIW it was built by a local toyshop to store excess stock, apparently. Most recent tenant was the local council, who stored polling booths there for use in local elections.) On top of the rent there is a property tax ("Uniform Business Rate") - the agent are finding this out for me - and I shall have to buy racking and things. But I think it's a good deal. Bob was paying L42 per month for 25 sq ft - roughly ten times as much on a per-square-foot basis! Philip From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Apr 13 09:21:44 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Computer Storage In-Reply-To: <80256752.002F0DAA.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <4.1.19990413094447.00b1b100@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:32 AM 4/13/99 +0100, Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk said something like: > > >Dear All > >I am thinking of renting a building in which to store my computer collection, >together with that of a friend who has gone to Canada [Bob Manners, for P850UG >people]. The building is very simply constructed - single brick walls and >sheet >asbestos roof - and currently has no supply of electricity or gas, but appears >fairly dry (at least at present). > >Do people on either of the two lists have suggestions for: > >What precautions should I take in storing computers here? > >Do I need to insulate / heat the building? By golly, this would be best! But at what co$t? > >Should I install a dehumidifier (I think I can get hold of one)? Yes. During the periods in the Spring and Fall when the temperature swings between 0 and about 15 Celsius, condensation is more prone to gather on cool surfaces. You've probably heard of this in regard to switchgear design at your job. This condition is aggravated when it is/has been raining or the humidity is otherwise high. I don't know what UK region you are in but I'm sure the present interior conditions of that building are somewhat similar to my area. This is the problem I have here in Jamestown (just east of Lake Erie of the Great Lakes region). I have to use our two unheated garages to store computer gear, but only temporarily as a big bunch is heading to Calif. in May/June and other items will be stuffed into the house or sold. (And I still have to settle on an economical cost plan to handle storage of the remaining parts of the collection and other stuff still in our old house. I must clean it out ASAP so it can get sold) Parts of my military radio collection are okay in the garages as those items have been "tropicallized" and otherwise designed for such condx. I must have a dehumidifier in the basement of the house during the hot, humid summers here. Tools and unpainted/unplated metal surfaces will rust or corrode. However dampness is not much of a problem in the garages then. During the coldest parts of our winter it is usually always below freezing so condensation is not much of a problem in the garages. The RH of the air is rather low too. > >Do I need (for example) to wrap each computer up in plastic with a packet of >silica gel? I think the gel would have to be replaced often if conditions are quite moist. Wrapping tightly in plastic could help but it will still "breath" some damp air through the many little paths between folds and layers. The clich? conditions we Yanks hear of over there is that is often foggy and cool in the UK. I suppose it depends greatly upon the exact location on the Islands whether the dampness is prevalent or not. > >The rent is very cheap - L2 (about $3.30) per square foot per year, and the >building is only 10 min walk from my house. With luck, this will mean that I >shall soon have a house with room for me as well as my junk... One additional important thing is to prevent any varmints from building homes in the gear and storage boxes. Mice, chipmunks and squirrels have invaded boxes and equipment in both of my garages. Not too much fun to clean out :( I've got a Havaheart live trap which I use to catch them and I haul them out of town to another forest (away from any bus or taxi stops so they can't get back home! ;) Good luck. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From native-sun at usa.net Tue Apr 13 09:39:52 1999 From: native-sun at usa.net (Jim Weiler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Re-introduction In-Reply-To: <199904131214.WAA18315@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> References: <199904131139.HAA02985@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: I was on this list for several months, and somehow got dropped from it, a few months ago. Because things were rather hectic for me, I didn't bother renewing right away. Once again, I want to express my appreciation for the caliber of individuals posting to this list, and my awe at the notion that I might have anything to contribute that could be of much interest to those on this list. I'm a rank beginner to computing, compared to many who post here. Nevertheless, due to circumstance I've managed to accumulate a fair amount of soft- and hardware, and I'm at the place where I need to divest myself of the bulk of it, in order to go on to other things. Because I'm in need of money, I've chosen eBay to be the conduit for most of this divestment. I have a few items that are currently running on eBay, and several more that will be added in the near future. You might want to bookmark my 'items for sale" page, and watch it over the next several weeks: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItemsLinkButtons&userid=heavy side I currently have two items running, a Corona PPC-22 (8088) lugable (really nice!), and a Sanyo MBC-1000 cp/m. Future items include a Vector 4, a Kaypro 2 w/software/manuals, a Macintosh 128k (Jan 1985), a Mac SE and enhancements, a fairly large library of cp/m manuals, and sundry other odd pieces. I've had an unsuccessful attempt at a sale, that I thought was interesting, you can view at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP.dll?ViewItem&item=84722321 It concerns a Quadra 950/601 PPC Upgrade Card, set up to run OS 8.5.1 (they said it couldn't be done!), I've included links on the page showing how to do it, and what makes this combo a collectible, IMHO! Contact me off-list if you're interested in this, or in any of this. -Jim Weiler aka Heavyside on eBay p.s. I may keep this list informed of my items being listed as they come up, depending on how this is received. If I get flamed by those I respect, forget it! ;-) Heavyside on eBay Online Auctions * mailto:native-sun@usa.net ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItemsLinkButtons&userid=heavy side ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=heavyside ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 13 10:10:03 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) Message-ID: <000c01be85bf$b5ccd3e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> You know what? I had completely forgotten about the Amiga. (Duhhh!) The Amiga did make a pretty good splash, AND it carved a niche for itself in the video processing area that even Apple couldn't penetrate. There were quite sophisticated gadgets available for the Amiga which you couldn't use with a MAC or a PC/AT. What's more, the "fancier" Mac's and PC's didn't make any headway in that arena either, as demonstrated by the lack of competition with the "gadgets" needed for some of these tasks. There was, of course, a major difference between the earlier Commodore products and the Amiga. A look under the hood would quickly reveal that. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Doug Spence To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 1:56 AM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) > > >On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> In all the time I was involved in the microcomputer industry, I never saw a >> single Commodore ad that wasn't printed in a trade publication of some sort. > >What!? You mean there was a part of the world that WASN'T completely >saturated in Commodores? What part of the world do you live in? > >So I guess you missed "I adore my 64", the "Sweet 16" ads, and William >Shatner shilling for the VIC-20? > >Of course, I can still remember _Amiga_ ads on television. I wish I had >had a VCR back then, because some of those ads were pretty good. > >"Betcha can't do that with your Mac, Jack!" > > > >> Dick > >-- >Doug Spence >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca >http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ > From spc at armigeron.com Tue Apr 13 11:20:57 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 In-Reply-To: <199904131406.HAA10196@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 13, 99 07:06:48 am Message-ID: <199904131620.MAA28570@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1022 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990413/2df9bac9/attachment.ksh From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Apr 13 11:01:09 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Corvus Concept (was Re: Y2K stuff) In-Reply-To: Derek Peschel's message of Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:33:47 -0700 (PDT) References: <199904070833.BAA22690@saul9.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199904131601.JAA18782@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Derek Peschel wrote (after something I wrote a while ago): > > What do you think a Corvus Concept would bring to Blockout? I don't know, > > and it's been years since I played Tetris. > > Mostly the high-resolution graphics and possibly a tall aspect ratio of > the monitor. Radius Pivot monitors are very rectangular (they're either > very tall or very wide) -- does the Concept screen look the same way? Hmm, sort of -- it's a 15" monitor, but the bezel around the screen is such that it encompasses an 8.5"x11" sheet of paper with a little bit of border all the way around. Then again, so does the 17" Dell monitor that I'm using now...well, no, I think it has a bit more border to the left and right than the Concept monitor would (in landscape mode). > I just saw a picutre of a Concept, and it seemed to be running a decent- > looking GUI. Is that realistic? I think it's realistic (the hardware does bit-mapped 720x560 monochrome graphics), but I'm not sure it was typically done. Reading the manuals, I get a picture of a character- and screen-oriented UI that just happens to be done by drawing characters on a bit-mapped display. Navigation through applications seems to be done largely with character commands and function keys (w/on-screen labels). And there's no standard pointing device beyond the keyboard. Though I guess you could add something -- there are serial ports and the bus slots are close enough to Apple ][ slots that you might be able to plug an Apple-compatible interface in and write some code to make it work. Or you could do without, I can certainly work the GUI on my HP Integral PC without a rodent, and when I used to do stuff in HPDRAW using an HP graphics terminal with an HP3000 mini, there were a lot of things for which I preferred the keyboard cursor positioning over what I'd be able to do with a Mac and its mouse. From mbg at world.std.com Tue Apr 13 11:36:00 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Computer Storage References: <80256752.002F0DAA.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> <199904131210.WAA18118@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <199904131636.AA25152@world.std.com> >The mice had to be built to government specifications I suppose? > ROFL. And I thought the standard joke was that when you build a mouse to government specs, you get an elephant... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Apr 13 11:39:00 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "Apr 13, 1999 9: 1: 4 am" Message-ID: <199904131639.MAA62606@pechter.dyndns.org> > > FS droid: Well I had a flat tyre and I changed the other three before I > > found the one that was flat... > > > > With apologies to all the good DEC FS guys that I have worked with over the > > years (and no apology for the one or two who were worse than useless - the > > TE16 on fire being the best (worst?) experience). > > And back at CSSE we used to laugh at how the bad tires would be put back > in the chevy kit to be sent out on a ford job! > > Allison Nah, the flat tires would get destroyed after three attempts to repair a machine failed and the tires were sent back to tire repair. (At least until the red toe-tags were no-longer left on the tires...) Told to me by a DEC FS guy who's dad worked at Honeywell Honeywell once decided that they were going to judge the FS folks by how many good boards were returned as bad. Field folks soon came up the answer: Microwave the boards to make sure they didn't work when they were returned. At DEC I saw at least 4 boards returned to the field with obvious faults (after being in repair twice). The FS fix... step on 'em and crack em so they dont come back again . Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Apr 13 11:41:02 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M In-Reply-To: <199904131214.WAA18315@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> from Huw Davies at "Apr 13, 1999 10:14: 8 pm" Message-ID: <199904131641.MAA62673@pechter.dyndns.org> > With apologies to all the good DEC FS guys that I have worked with over the > years (and no apology for the one or two who were worse than useless - the > TE16 on fire being the best (worst?) experience). > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au > Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 > 1999 > La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" > > OK -- Spill it. A TE16 on FIRE. What was the cause? What did FS do? I flamed two TU45's during SUP/SUS TUP/TUS adjustments (the power supplies just couldn't handle it). Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From PB14 at leicester.ac.uk Tue Apr 13 11:41:05 1999 From: PB14 at leicester.ac.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Computer Storage Message-ID: <9A32174C9D@orchid.le.ac.uk> On 13 Apr 99 at 9:32, Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk wrote: > I am thinking of renting a building in which to store my computer collection, > together with that of a friend who has gone to Canada [Bob Manners, for P850UG > people]. The building is very simply constructed - single brick walls and sheet > asbestos roof - and currently has no supply of electricity or gas, but appears > fairly dry (at least at present). A couple of years ago I helped store some some PDP and RL02 stuff in a similar construction building in Nottingham, so I guess the climate is similar to Coalville :-) The precautions were pretty basic -- sealed cabinets etc in clingfilm, some plywood over the concrete floor to make things "warmer". The kit was stored in this condition for a year before being sold and resuming commercial service. I think you should even be able to store manuals/books (not those in ring binders of course) if they are sealed in clingfilm and kept away from damp surfaces. I have a couple of boxes of shrinkwrapped software that were stored in a damp shed but the shrinkwrap protected the packaging. As any old car owner will tell you, the worst thing about lock-up storage tends to metal doors which add to your condensation/damp problem more than anything. Mail me if you need a hand physically moving your kit. Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14@le.ac.uk From PB14 at leicester.ac.uk Tue Apr 13 11:48:06 1999 From: PB14 at leicester.ac.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Software collectors list Message-ID: <9A50542FF8@orchid.le.ac.uk> On 12 Apr 99 at 21:36, Mike Ford wrote: > I have been thinking about and looking for a list like this one, except > instead of hardware collecting, it would be about collecting software. I > haven't found any existing list, so I am getting motivated to start a list > on one of the various services that will host a list for free (free free > ideally, but I don't have a problem with an ad supported list server > either). I have a fair amount of feedback that such a list would be > desirable, so other than a charter which I am still thinking on, two basic > questions need answering in the next few days so I can get going. It's a while since anyone last posted the charter for this list, but I'm sure that it doesn't discourage discussion of >10year software. I though Classiccmp was about the entire "classic computing experience" not just the hardware nitty gritty anyway? Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14@le.ac.uk From mbg at world.std.com Tue Apr 13 11:51:34 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Restoration of an 11/34a Message-ID: <199904131651.AA10691@world.std.com> In the latest trip that Allison and I took to collect some hardware, I got an RL01 and an RL11. I've now installed the RL01 in the rack with the 11/34a and have plugged the RL11 into the machine. I haven't yet located a cable, but that shouldn't be too hard given some time (now where did I put my stockroom?) I've also prettied it up a little by adding another black plastic panel to the front, so it looks pretty good. Next step is to also locate a cable to connect the DL11-W to a terminal, and I can check if it boots with one of the numerous RL01 disks I got this weekend. In the same trip, I also got another 11/34a, which had numerous non-dec boards in it, but also had an FP11, which is now in the machine I've been working on. Since I may sell 11/34a I got the other day, I did some work on it this morning to clean it up and configure it with at least the processor, memory (16kw), boot board and a serial interface. I vacuumed all the old filter out of the backplane, put in the boards and it mostly worked... one strange thing is that when I put in the UNIBUS terminator, I get bus hangs. When I remove it, I don't... Anyway, I'll have to toggle in some short code segments to see if the CPU will execute code (actually, I think it was executing the boot cood...hmmm) Anyway, that's the latest on those machines... I'll have a newer picture of the 11/34a up on my web page later today... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Apr 13 12:07:45 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 In-Reply-To: <199904131620.MAA28570@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Apr 13, 99 12:20:57 pm Message-ID: <199904131707.KAA07208@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 955 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990413/28f33a84/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Tue Apr 13 12:07:46 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 In-Reply-To: <199904131707.KAA07208@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 13, 99 10:07:45 am Message-ID: <199904131707.NAA29947@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1038 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990413/f37206c6/attachment.ksh From walt at accessus.org Mon Apr 12 21:48:35 1999 From: walt at accessus.org (Walt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:07 2005 Subject: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!) Message-ID: <000c01be85d5$bd1ee780$53c9efd1@mach2> This is the screen scheme from the early WordPerfect/DOS days of Jerry's young years. -w. -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 7:33 PM Subject: Re: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!) >>> Well, I don't know. However, MS Word/Windows and /Macintosh has a strange >>> option: to have large white letters on a blue background instead of black >>> on white. This has nothing to do with any color settings, and no other >>> colors can be used in a similar way. This may have classic reasons. Anyone >>> know? >> >>Don't know the exact reason but that was the default color >>combination of the DOS version of MS Word (and every day I use >>the current version, I long for the old one). >> >>George > >I think this has something to do with a request for an enhancement made by >Jerry Pornelle believe it or not. I read something recenty where he >wrote about having gotten MS to add some special colour combination for him. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > > From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Apr 13 13:17:29 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: DG AViion stuff In-Reply-To: <007c01be8586$3b107a00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <199904131814.NAA05720@trailingedge.com> That would be me. Thanks for the pointer, this looks like a great software site for the system. Now if I could only get the ethernet port driver properly configured I could download directly to it. :-( On 13 Apr 99, at 17:48, Geoff Roberts wrote: > Someone wanted stuff for the M88K Data General Aviion's running DGUX. > > There is a fair bit at this site.. > > http://ftp.avlib.clemson.edu/avlib/pub/88k/ ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Apr 13 13:51:37 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Description: Catalog of 11/45 Cards Installed In-Reply-To: <990413094516.20c004c6@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Apr 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >You need a copy of the DEC Field Guide. It's available on metalab, I'm > >sure someone else will pop up with the URL. > > http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/field-guide.txt That URL didn't work for me. This one did: http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/field-guide.txt (you missed the /hardware subdirectory) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 13 13:56:43 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: digital bites the dust, finally In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: Message-ID: <19990413185643.18940.qmail@brouhaha.com> >>Wonder what Bob Palmer's doing these days ( doubt he's lunching at >>"Grappa" > in Maynard Ma.) > > He is on AMD's Board of Directors as of a week or two ago. So, which AMD division will be the first to go? From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 13 14:04:02 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Round 98 (was Re: 6502 vs Z80, round 97) In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:53:14 -0700) References: (message from Mike Ford on Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:06:06 -0700) Message-ID: <19990413190402.18987.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mike Ford wrote: > One of the things I have noticed is that great similarity exists between a > couple of instruction sets, the 6502 and the Sparc, and the IBM 360 and > 68000. Kind of the classics of RISC and CISC, and I love them both. I replied: > Having programmed all four of those processors, I would not be willing > to concede much similarity between any two of the four. Mike replied: > Maybe you forgot to enhale, there aren't more than a handfull of different > instructions between the pairs I mention. Well, sure. How many different names for "add" can you come up with. But the register sets are different, the addressing modes are different, the condition codes are different, and the subroutine linkage methods are different. If your criteria for processors being similar is that they have add and subtract instructions, allmost all microprocessors are similar. > I haven't programmed the Sparc, > but I did spend about two weeks testing the feasibility of porting a 65C02 > assembly language program to the Sparc, and it looked very very good. I've been there and done that (binary translation from 6502 to Sparc) as part of my video game simulation project. It did not map all that directly. The 6502 is little-endian and the Sparc is big-endian. And that's just the beginning of the story. > As for the 360/68k, IBM made a varient of the 68k that ran 360 code native. I've got one. The customized 68k has *completely* different microcode, and other changes to the instruction decode logic. And it *still* didn't implement anywhere close to the full 370 architecture. They had a second 68000 (a normal one) that was used to emulate the instructions that they couldn't implement in microcode on the hacked 68k. And a majorly hacked Intel 8087 to do the IBM radix-16 floating point. The 360/370 don't even have a *stack*! How you can say with a straight face that the 360 is similar to a 68k is beyond me. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 13 14:18:08 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Computer Storage In-Reply-To: <80256752.0045E1AF.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) References: <80256752.0045E1AF.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <19990413191808.19077.qmail@brouhaha.com> > In winter, temperatures of -2 deg C are common, and -10 is not unheard-of. So > that sounds like insulation would be a good idea. I am unlikely to operate > computers in this building - no electricity or comms services as yet, so it > would be expensive. I shall look into elec costs... Storing things at relatively low temperatures (but preferrably above 0 C) is OK. But temperature cycling is bad. If insulating the place reduces the daily temperature variation, that would probably we worthwhile. OTOH, I haven't bothered to do that in my storage units here in Silicon Valley. I should put a data logger with temperature and humidity sensors over there. From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Apr 13 14:34:26 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Software collectors list In-Reply-To: <371345FB.9230DD73@idirect.com> References: <4.1.19990412161019.00b8bb30@mcmanis.com> <199904122231.PAA03538@saul9.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >I would be quite interested in this proposed software list if there >is any interest in RT-11 (I am an Addict as most of you know). The list will be open to software and manuals for all platforms, since many people will be collecting for more than one brand, and most of all many people will buy some auction lot that contains things they want, and also items they don't want that will be of interest to others. I suspect many basic topics will be common for everyone, like modern backup formats, sales events, cleaning old media etc. My target is to have a list running within the week too. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 13 12:41:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990412202323.009e9840@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 12, 99 08:27:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1126 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990413/ca701408/attachment.ksh From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Apr 13 15:16:19 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Software collectors list In-Reply-To: <9A50542FF8@orchid.le.ac.uk> Message-ID: >On 12 Apr 99 at 21:36, Mike Ford wrote: > >> I have been thinking about and looking for a list like this one, except >> instead of hardware collecting, it would be about collecting software. I > >It's a while since anyone last posted the charter for this list, but >I'm sure that it doesn't discourage discussion of >10year software. I >though Classiccmp was about the entire "classic computing experience" >not just the hardware nitty gritty anyway? Its not that software discussion wouldn't be welcome here, its that many collectors of software have no interest in the hardware side. I think collecting software and associated manuals and books is a topic ready to stand on its own, and be dug into with more depth than a general list might be comfortable with. Also of course much of the collecting will be on titles newer than 10 years. I have a lot of personal interest in software around 5 years old that is needed to use computers of that era effectively and at low cost. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 13 13:28:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Restoration of an 11/34a In-Reply-To: <199904131651.AA10691@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Apr 13, 99 12:51:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1013 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990413/680e0748/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 13 12:55:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Description: Catalog of 11/45 Cards Installed In-Reply-To: <124101be855d$ffc36200$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> from "Buck Savage" at Apr 12, 99 08:30:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1950 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990413/99a3f917/attachment.ksh From fpp at concentric.net Tue Apr 13 16:18:23 1999 From: fpp at concentric.net (Paul Passmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: FREE: Vic-20 Message-ID: <000701be85f3$2b169540$befaadce@paul> Hi Anthony, I am looking forward to receiving the Vic 20. I was wondering if you have sent it yet? I had to respond to the list as I don't have your personal email. >Wow, I have always wanted a vic20. If you still have it I'd love it. I have >several Apple IIc if youd like one. No thanks. Trying to reduce the amount of stuff. =-) Since you're the first to ask for it, it's yours. If you want it, send a check for $7.50 to Anthony Clifton 407 E. Porter Avenue Des Moines, Iowa 50315 and I'll ship it out to you by the fastest route that costs $7.50 or less. =) Thanks! Also, send me your shipping address for USPS shipping. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From a2k at one.net Tue Apr 13 17:14:57 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: VERY OT: Win'98 splash screen In-Reply-To: <01be856c$fb0c44c0$a09ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: Not that it really matters, it's just a BMP file with SYS attributes. Replace it with ANY BMP, rename it to logo.sys and attrib +s it. There's another copy in c:\windows or c:\windows\system in case you delete the original, I believe. I did this on one of the machines at my church and it really freaked them out (took the image & inversed, rasterized, etc.) Kevin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After sifting through the overwritten remaining blocks of Luke's home directory, Luke and PDP-1 sped away from /u/lars, across the surface of the Winchester riding Luke's flying read/write head. PDP-1 had Luke stop at the edge of the cylinder overlooking /usr/spool/uucp. "Unix-to-Unix Copy Program;" said PDP-1. "You will never find a more wretched hive of bugs and flamers. We must be cautious." -- DECWARS ____________________________________________________________________ | Kevin Stewart | "I am a secret | | KC8BLL ----------| Wrapped in a mystery -Milford High School | | a2k@one.net | Wrapped in an enigma Drama Tech Dept. | |jlennon@nether.net| And drizzled in some tasty chocolate stuff.| -------------------------------------------------------------------- From cube at msn.fullfeed.com Mon Apr 12 20:44:33 1999 From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: IBM Programmed Symbols Adapter In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990412204720.462fec74@intellistar.net> Message-ID: This card was designed (as you might guess) to do ehanced stuff (in particular, special character sets and/or graphics) when emulating a 3270 terminal (or, more appropriately, one of the 3270 family graphics terminals). The other card it connects to would be the special 3270 display adapter on a 3270 PC. Unless you are going to hook an IBM 3270 PC up to a real mainframe, it won't be of any use to you. If you don't have a 3270 PC, you might well want to donate it to someone who does (like me ;-) ). Jay At 08:47 PM 4/12/99 +0000, you wrote: >I just picked up an IBM 3270 Personal Computer Programmed Symbols Adapter >card in the box. The box says that it's "an option that provides the >storage and controls for displaying an APL font and six additional >programmable fonts." It's a full length 8 bit card with two sockets on the >to edge. There is also two jumpers in the box that I assume are used to >jumper this card to another card. I didn't get any instructions or >software with it. Does anyone know how to use it or have instructions etc >for it? > > Joe > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection Jay.Jaeger@msn.fullfeed.com visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Apr 13 18:56:24 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990412202323.009e9840@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990413164925.00ac3d50@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 06:41 PM 4/13/99 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >Hey, that's another reason _not_ to do board-swapping ;-) DEC FSE jokes aside, how else might you bring up a random collection of boards? My strategy was this: 1.) Debug the chassis. 2.) Install components from a working 8/M. 3.) Replace componets from the working 8/M with questionable components. 3a.) If the replaced component failed: Fix it. 3b.) If the replaced component worked: Move to the next one. >OK... First thing is to clean out the backplane in the 8/m. Use a vacuum >cleaner to remove loose dust and then squirt isopropyl alcohol >(propan-2-ol) into the connectors. I've done that, although that foam is damn sticky. (Twice I've debugged problems which consisted of plugging in the "defective card" scoping it, removing it, noticing another bit of gunk on the fingers, cleaning the fingers and the slot again, inserting the card and having it work. >Then assemble a minimal system. IIRC you don't even need memory. Just the >clock/timing card, the 2 CPU cards and the bus loads. It is a minimal system :-) Actually I could remove the core stack and run just the CPU and loads, I'll do this tonight. >Then, if it still doesn't halt, check the power supply. I can't remember >what the power good line will make the CPU do if it's in the wrong state, >but I don't think it forces the CPU to the RUN state (unlike the 11/45...) Power supply is good, its the first thing I checked [switcher type B] (4.96v and -15.01v and +14.99v) with the minimal system installed. BTW, the "best" tool I've found for working on PDP-8s is the Radio Shack scope probe. Its more than fast enough to look at the signals. I suspect a Logic Dart would be better but I've not had enough funds for that toy yet. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 13 19:12:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990413164925.00ac3d50@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 13, 99 04:56:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1843 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990414/a9783dc4/attachment.ksh From nerdware at laidbak.com Tue Apr 13 19:24:53 1999 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: VERY OT: Win'98 splash screen In-Reply-To: <01be856c$fb0c44c0$a09ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <199904140025.TAA25372@garcon.laidbak.com> I'd be thankful. Most people, myself included, use TweakUI to make it go away.... Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Apr 13 19:31:10 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M In-Reply-To: <003d01be855f$393deea0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> References: <199904131214.WAA18315@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <199904140031.KAA22273@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 13:09 13/04/99 +0930, Geoff Roberts wrote: >> With apologies to all the good DEC FS guys that I have worked with over >the >> years (and no apology for the one or two who were worse than useless - the >> TE16 on fire being the best (worst?) experience). > > I'd really love to hear about that one.....:^) Well this was several (many?) years ago when I managed a VAX-11/780 (1.25Mb memory, 2xRM03, 1xRM80, 1xDZ11, 1xTE16 and a Printronix printer). Life was so much easier then! We'd had some problems with the TE16 (half inch tape drive for those not intimately familiar with 15 year old Digital hardware). I can't remember what the problem was but we got a new FS engineer out to check it out. I'm not sure of the details but I guess he connected the power up wrong cause when he turned the TE16 back on the lights in the computer room dimmed and suddenly large amounts of magic smoke (along with some nice orange/yellow/green flames were visible (the TE16 was out on its sliders). The fire was put out (by me) using a CO2 extinguisher. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Apr 13 19:33:05 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Computer Storage In-Reply-To: <004101be8561$e9979560$f17d38cb@helpdesk> References: <80256752.002F0DAA.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> <199904131210.WAA18118@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <199904140033.KAA23731@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 13:28 13/04/99 +0930, Geoff Roberts wrote: >The mice had to be built to government specifications I suppose? Transgenic identical mice don't come cheap (I seem to recall $100 each). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Apr 13 22:29:46 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: VERY OT: Win'98 splash screen Message-ID: <01be8627$0b5021c0$538ea6d1@the-general> Me, too, but you don't know my dad... He has his computer in the living room, with the screen facing the window, and he says that he wants it to look nice when it's booting (don't_ask)... I think he deleted the spare one, too. I did a search, and can't find it anywhere. Either the computer didn't come with a copy of the CD on the HD, or my dad deleted the copy, because I can't find that, either. I told him he'd be better off to just put DOS back on the thing.... -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Paul Braun To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 5:26 PM Subject: Re: VERY OT: Win'98 splash screen I'd be thankful. Most people, myself included, use TweakUI to make it go away.... Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From wpe101 at banet.net Tue Apr 13 19:54:54 1999 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey! References: Message-ID: <3713E75E.5DA3C0F5@banet.net> I read it.. Hmmmmmm...... "Prohibited from dumping computers and cathode ray tubes into landfills"... Good time to make the group known. This _could_ actually help our cause, because anyone who lives in, or has driven in Massachusetts knows that they don't know a (expletive deleted)ing thing about fixing potholes! Recycle that computer the MOST ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY WAY, Have one of US pick it up! Will "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > I think it is now safe to say that the State of Massachusetts is the enemy > of Classic Computer enthusiasts everywhere! > http://cnn.com/NATURE/9904/07/computers.potholes.ap/ > > "We want people to take those computers out > of the attics, get them out of the landfills and > make use of the good parts," said Rick > Lombardi, spokesman for the department. > "And God knows, we have plenty of potholes > to fill in New England." > > This is sickening! > > Zane > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From tomowad at earthlink.net Tue Apr 13 20:05:46 1999 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival Message-ID: <199904140108.SAA05196@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> I'm thinking about attending the upcoming Trenton Computer Festival. Unfortunately, if I do go, I won't be able to make it until Sunday. Any opinions on whether or not the second day of the TCF is worth a two and a half hour drive? Thanks. Tom Owad From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Apr 13 20:16:41 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festivalt In-Reply-To: <199904140108.SAA05196@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from Tom Owad at "Apr 13, 1999 9: 5:46 pm" Message-ID: <199904140116.VAA46434@pechter.dyndns.org> > I'm thinking about attending the upcoming Trenton Computer Festival. > Unfortunately, if I do go, I won't be able to make it until Sunday. Any > opinions on whether or not the second day of the TCF is worth a two and a > half hour drive? > > Thanks. > > Tom Owad In the old days it was bargain and dumpster dive day. TCF was a lot like what the VCF sounds like. (Except with a mix of some of the classic stuff with some of the newer computers.) PDP 8's, and PDP11's as well as S100 stuff was common. Now there's some Sun, Vax, HP Unix stuff, some older S100, H89, H8. Some CP/M (rare) some Macintosh and Apple II/III... But it's becoming more and more a Windows and PC kind of show. I don't know what it'll be like this year with Ken Gordon running the show on contract (but I fear the worst). Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Apr 13 20:23:42 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M In-Reply-To: <199904140031.KAA22273@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> from Huw Davies at "Apr 14, 1999 10:31:10 am" Message-ID: <199904140123.VAA48915@pechter.dyndns.org> > Well this was several (many?) years ago when I managed a VAX-11/780 (1.25Mb > memory, 2xRM03, 1xRM80, 1xDZ11, 1xTE16 and a Printronix printer). Life was > so much easier then! We'd had some problems with the TE16 (half inch tape > drive for those not intimately familiar with 15 year old Digital hardware). > I can't remember what the problem was but we got a new FS engineer out to > check it out. I'm not sure of the details but I guess he connected the > power up wrong cause when he turned the TE16 back on the lights in the > computer room dimmed and suddenly large amounts of magic smoke (along with > some nice orange/yellow/green flames were visible (the TE16 was out on its > sliders). The fire was put out (by me) using a CO2 extinguisher. > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au > Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 > 1999 > La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" > > Sounds like fun. I've never seen a TE16 hooked up wrong. Didn't know it was possible, since it just plugged into the power supply and that plugged to the power conditioner. I remember when the NY Telephone union electricians went home at 4pm just about when they blew out one of the three phases to the entire switching center computer room. Alarms went off on all the monitoring hardware. A lot of stuff crashed and blinking lights above the machines kicked in and blinked and rotated... Boy, I've never heard the clicking of those 860 power controllers like that. Sparks actually came out of the 11/70 I was installing at the time. Needless to say, I dropped power, pulled plugs and went home after I was told the electricians would not be back to work on it before 5pm. Now I see why they like everything they have to run on the 48volt DC so they can run it all off the batteries and not depend on the AC input. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 13 20:28:19 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <199904140128.AA04170@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3713F09C.4EB3D58C@idirect.com> I am not positive if this is the correct part number. It is for a Qbus backplane and power supply. Have you ever seen a PDP-11/34 top loading rack mounted box? About the same size! Also top loading. About 10 1/4" high and a 19" rack. BUT, this is for a Qbus back plane with at least 10 slots (there could be as many as 16). And I suspect that the first 3 slots may be ABCD like the BA23 box and the rest are AB/AB also like the BA23 box. In addition, there are 4 * 5 1/4" full height drive bays. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Apr 13 20:39:34 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Software collectors list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > Its not that software discussion wouldn't be welcome here, its that many > collectors of software have no interest in the hardware side. I think I disagree with this statement, and wonder where your reasoning comes from. Just as hardware is useless without software, what good is software without hardware? > collecting software and associated manuals and books is a topic ready to > stand on its own, and be dug into with more depth than a general list might > be comfortable with. Also of course much of the collecting will be on We've just had a whole boring discussion on processor clock ticks that dealt with both sides--hardware and software--so its not like software issues don't get dug into deeply here. > titles newer than 10 years. I have a lot of personal interest in software > around 5 years old that is needed to use computers of that era effectively > and at low cost. Well, that's a whole different topic then. I can't think of anything more boring than discussing recently released software, but I'm sure others would find it most useful. However, I fail to see why another list would have to be created for this sort of talk. I guess the hundreds of newsgroups that already exist for this type of discussion aren't adequate? Good luck. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From jruschme at exit109.com Tue Apr 13 20:59:16 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festivalt In-Reply-To: <199904140116.VAA46434@pechter.dyndns.org> from Bill Pechter at "Apr 13, 99 09:16:41 pm" Message-ID: <199904140159.VAA11978@crobin.home.org> > > I'm thinking about attending the upcoming Trenton Computer Festival. > > Unfortunately, if I do go, I won't be able to make it until Sunday. Any > > opinions on whether or not the second day of the TCF is worth a two and a > > half hour drive? > > In the old days it was bargain and dumpster dive day. > TCF was a lot like what the VCF sounds like. (Except with a mix of some of > the classic stuff with some of the newer computers.) > > PDP 8's, and PDP11's as well as S100 stuff was common. Now there's some > Sun, Vax, HP Unix stuff, some older S100, H89, H8. Some CP/M (rare) > some Macintosh and Apple II/III... But it's becoming more and more > a Windows and PC kind of show. It should be noted that we're talking about the flea market here. The inside vendors are your basic computer show- probably more so this year with the Ken Gordon influence. (For those not of the NJ area, Ken Gordon is the largest of the 3 or 4 companies which run computer shows in this area.) Last year's flea market was the year of the cheap 486 (66mhz and below) and '030 Mac (lots of IIsi and IIci CPUs, often with net cards and 40 or 80mb drives, for $25). You can sort of judge the strata of "obsolescence" by what is common in a particular year; though you will see older, it seems to be few and far between. I suspect that this will be the year of the low-end Pentium (75-100) and (I hope) the '040 Macintosh. (I'd like to find a cheap Quadra.) There will probably be some IIsi's and IIci's, but almost no Plusses or SE's. I suspect we'll also see some more Sun4 and Sun4c class systems, though those seem to be being gobbled up by college age kids in what I assume is either "Workstation Envy" or a big interest in S/Linux. This will probably be the last chance to grab a Sun3. <<>> From mbg at world.std.com Tue Apr 13 21:09:10 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Restoration of an 11/34a Message-ID: <199904140209.AA07292@world.std.com> >You did remember to cut the NPG jumper on the slot that you stuck the >RL11 in, I hope... Thanks... I did forget (I've done mostly Qbus for quite awhile... so the UNIBUS specific stuff may slip my mind for a bit) >That's the most common 11/34 problem, assuming you're using an M9302 >terminator. You have a grant open somewhere (either you're missing an >continuity card or you've got an NPG jumper missing). THe M9302 then >asserts SACK, the CPU tries to remove the asserted grant line but can't, >and it locks up. Aha... right... I'll have to check the backplane... there were a number of boards in it, some were probably DMA devices... (as I said, it may take a little time for it to come back to me...) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 13 19:50:21 1999 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Field Service/Installation In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:01:04 -0400 (EDT) . Message-ID: > FS droid: Well I had a flat tyre and I changed the other three before I > found the one that was flat... > > With apologies to all the good DEC FS guys that I have worked with over the > years (and no apology for the one or two who were worse than useless - the > TE16 on fire being the best (worst?) experience). First I want to prefix this by saying this wasn't a DEC FS problem even though it involved a new PDP-11/44 installation. Many years ago (during my Freshman year of college), we got a new 11/44 for the main administrative machine. (We also got a VAX 11/780 for the academic machine that same year.) Now to save money, the college bought a 3rd party tape drive from Plessey. It seems that the installation guy Plessey sent out didn't know one end of an 11/44 from the other, literally. Appearantly, he connected something backwards. Between the stories I heard at the time and what little I've been able figure out since, I think he managed to connect the power to the backplane backwards. DEC told us that it was supposed to be impossible, but he managed to blow the board set anyway. Fortunately, Plessey made good on the deal and paid for the dead boards. The best part of the story was a while later, my roommates and I attended the National Computer Conference in Chicago. One of the vendors there was, of course, Plessey. Just for fun, a couple of us walked up to the booth and just loitered a bit. One of the salesmen walked toward us with the standard sales smile. As he glanced down at our nametages (afterall, a salesman needs to address you by name) he suddenly looked ill and turned away. Another rep came up and asked if she could help us. We said "We don't think so," and told her the story. Here classic response was something along the lines of "Oh, I heard about that. He doesn't work for us anymore." Brian L. Stuart From fpp at concentric.net Tue Apr 13 21:21:38 1999 From: fpp at concentric.net (Paul Passmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: VERY OT: Win'98 splash screen Message-ID: <000901be861d$88613c80$bfc1adce@paul> >Me, too, but you don't know my dad... >He has his computer in the living room, with the screen facing the window, >and he says that he wants it to look nice when it's booting (don't_ask)... >I think he deleted the spare one, too. I did a search, and can't find it >anywhere. Either the computer didn't come with a copy of the CD on the HD, >or my dad deleted the copy, because I can't find that, either. >I told him he'd be better off to just put DOS back on the thing.... If he did not get the Windows CD then perhaps you have a bootleg copy of Windows. All new PC's have a CD copy and Microsoft certificate of authenticity. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Apr 13 22:24:15 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Compupro and DG question Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990413222415.492fd97a@intellistar.net> Went scrounging again today. Picked up some good HP stuff. Also found a Compupro 8/16 chassis with no cards or top cover. Also found a Compupro Hard Drive Subsystem chassis. It had one 5 1/4" and one 8" floppy drive. The hard drive and top cover were gone. Is the 8/16 an S-100 chassis? Anyone need this stuff bad enough to pay shipping and a scalper's price for it? Also found a DG hard drive. Looks like a 14" in a clear cover. I think the model number was 3462. Looks too heavy to ship unless someone REALLY wants it. Joe From hhacker at home.com Tue Apr 13 21:35:03 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Description of 11/44 Installed Board Set Message-ID: <12c701be861f$673f4360$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> First, thanks for the references. I will look into the "apparently hidden board" in a day or two. For now, I have some of the information that I need regarding the 11/45, thanks to those on this list. As with the 11/45 listing, these are readability oriented, given R to L. The 11/44 had this set: (all numbers begin with M, save the G7273) 7090 empty 7093 7094 7095 7096 empty 7098 unsure of occupancy of this slot 8743 empty empty 7982 7273, in the top two thirds, with 7297 in the lower third of this slot 7297 7295 7294 5904, these three are located in the middle third of the slot 5904 5904 9300 unsure of occupancy of this slot empty 9202, in top third, and 7258 in bottom two thirds of the slot some Emulex card unsure of occupancy of this slot 9302, in top third, and some Emulex in bottom two thirds of the slot The tape drive for this unit is a TS11. How much power should I expect to supply in order to run the CPU, TS11, two RM02's (with a whopping 67MB capacity, and at this size, we'll never run out of available storage), and the terminal? Do I need the services of an electrician? William R. Buckley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990413/b0b22d38/attachment.html From museum at techniche.com Tue Apr 13 21:41:16 1999 From: museum at techniche.com (Jon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festivalt Message-ID: <199904140241.WAA05884@chmls05.mediaone.net> Can either of you supply any details? Date? Times? Specific location? >> I'm thinking about attending the upcoming Trenton Computer Festival. >> Unfortunately, if I do go, I won't be able to make it until Sunday. Any >> opinions on whether or not the second day of the TCF is worth a two and a >> half hour drive? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Tom Owad > >In the old days it was bargain and dumpster dive day. >TCF was a lot like what the VCF sounds like. (Except with a mix of some of >the classic stuff with some of the newer computers.) > >PDP 8's, and PDP11's as well as S100 stuff was common. Now there's some >Sun, Vax, HP Unix stuff, some older S100, H89, H8. Some CP/M (rare) >some Macintosh and Apple II/III... But it's becoming more and more >a Windows and PC kind of show. > >I don't know what it'll be like this year with Ken Gordon running the show >on contract (but I fear the worst). > >Bill >--- > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, > The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 13 21:49:14 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M Message-ID: <199904140249.AA10631@world.std.com> A Reminder: Saturday, April 24th.. for all listmembers who will be in the Southern California area - The TRW Ham Radio and Electronics Swap Meet will be heald on the morning of the 24th, from 7:30 to 11:30, in the southernmost parking lots of the TRW plant in El Segundo, CA. From the 405 (San Diego) Freeway, take the Rosecrans exit west, go west on Rosecrans about 1 mile to the intersection of Aviation, then left at Aviation (under the Metrolink bridge)... proceed south on Aviation 1/2 mile, the swapmeet will be in the parking lots on the right, before Marine avenue. After the swapmeet, there will be the customary CoCo's Brunch 'n Brag, from noonish until one-ish. THEN: I will host a Vintage Computer Open House CompuCrawl. Listmembers and interested persons are invited to my place to look at / play with / make scurrilous jokes about my motley collection. I have four DEC machines running and a Pr1me 2550, as well as various micros, etc. This event will last until whenever Saturday night. Persons needing advance directions to my residence are encouraged to e-mail for directions. I *do* live in a rural area so directions are recomended. I believe some persons from outside the SoCal area expressed interest in showing up, so e-mail me privately for contact info. Cheerz John From jruschme at exit109.com Tue Apr 13 22:05:39 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festivalt In-Reply-To: <199904140241.WAA05884@chmls05.mediaone.net> from Jon at "Apr 13, 99 10:41:16 pm" Message-ID: <199904140305.XAA12053@crobin.home.org> > Can either of you supply any details? > > Date? Times? Specific location? May 1-2 at the Raritan Center. http://www.tcf99.com From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Apr 13 22:16:49 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: DG AViion stuff References: <199904131814.NAA05720@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <008501be8625$3d821600$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: David Williams To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Wednesday, 14 April 1999 3:47 Subject: Re: DG AViion stuff > That would be me. Thanks for the pointer, this looks like a great > software site for the system. Now if I could only get the ethernet > port driver properly configured I could download directly to it. :-( IIRC, the manuals for DGUX are online at the DG web site. I think you have to dig a bit, but they are definitely there, in PDF format. It's for a later version than you have, but that's not a real big deal I suspect... You might also try posting in comp.os.aos the ng for DG's big iron Advanced Operating System. I recall getting some useful advice from one of the lurkers there that had experience with the DG 88k machines.... You might also like to have a look here: http://dssdev2.med.osd.mil/helpdesk/dgnotes.html and here: http://www-csc.dg.com/dgux/trouble.pdf Hope this helps.... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ #: 1970476 Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 Mobile: 61-411-623-978 Fax: 61-8-8633-0104 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Apr 13 22:21:00 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Computer Storage References: <80256752.002F0DAA.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> <199904131210.WAA18118@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <00a501be8625$e4482d80$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Megan To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Wednesday, 14 April 1999 2:06 Subject: Re: Computer Storage > > >The mice had to be built to government specifications I suppose? > > ROFL. > > And I thought the standard joke was that when you build a mouse > to government specs, you get an elephant... That's what I was inferring. :^) Tongue firmly in cheek. You'd know what a camel is then? Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ #: 1970476 Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 Mobile: 61-411-623-978 Fax: 61-8-8633-0104 From mbg at world.std.com Tue Apr 13 22:38:27 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Computer Storage References: <80256752.002F0DAA.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> <199904131210.WAA18118@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <199904140338.AA17929@world.std.com> >You'd know what a camel is then? Seems to me I've heard it, but I've also forgotten... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Tue Apr 13 22:40:29 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Big Iron Message-ID: <199904140340.AA19604@world.std.com> I've got the pictures of the KS10 systems up on my web page... For anyone interested... http://world.std.com/~mbg/home_systems.html#ks10s to read a little about it.... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 13 23:53:22 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Description of 11/44 Installed Board Set In-Reply-To: <12c701be861f$673f4360$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: >The 11/44 had this set: (all numbers begin with M, save the G7273) > >7090 >empty >7093 >7094 >7095 >7096 Off the top of my head, you've the basic /44 CPU here. You're missing the FP and CIS options, but that's normal. >How much power should I expect to supply in order to run the CPU, TS11, >two RM02's (with a whopping 67MB capacity, and at this size, we'll never >run out of available storage), and the terminal? Do I need the services of >an electrician? A basic /44 is supposed to draw about 15amps, not sure what your RM02's and TS11 draw, but I figured up my /44 and with it's dual RL02's, RX02, TU58, and CPU it came in well under 15amps. However, getting a 15-20amp circuit wired up for your /44 might not be a bad idea. I'm sure, someone will cry overkill, but hey, that way you can have other stuff on the same circuit, and you still need a printer or is the terminal a DECwriter II? As for never running out of storage, 67Mb isn't that big, my /73 currently has 680Mb on it, and there are others around here with more :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Apr 13 23:05:43 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Computer Storage References: <80256752.002F0DAA.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> <199904131210.WAA18118@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <00e701be862c$123fb2c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Megan To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Wednesday, 14 April 1999 1:08 Subject: Re: Computer Storage > > >You'd know what a camel is then? > > Seems to me I've heard it, but I've also forgotten... A horse designed by a committee. Cheers Geoff From cstone at pobox.com Tue Apr 13 22:27:15 1999 From: cstone at pobox.com (cstone) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: OT: VAX 4000/300 Message-ID: <19990413222715.B5679@www> Hello. This 4000/300 has been dominating my computer room for a while, and I love how it looks, but it'd be great if it worked. The boot-diagnostic LED on the inside panel is stuck at 'F'. I don't have a field service manual, so I don't know the exact meaning. I've checked all of the boards inside to make sure they're snug inside, but no luck. Nothing shows up on a terminal hooked up to the MMJ jack. The drives seem to power up. Anybody have any ideas? I'd love to have another VAX running here. Thanks in advance. -- From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 13 23:16:53 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!) In-Reply-To: <199904130156.VAA06306@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: > Anyone remember the original name of the company ? Hint: not what one would > expect from a solid down-to-earth god-fearing Mormon state like Utah. > I have a very spacy ad in an old PC World whose slogan is " A word processor > should be an etension of your mind" . But what kind of computer would a satellite software company have been planning to run that program on before they ported it to the real world? From spc at armigeron.com Tue Apr 13 23:19:31 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <199904092337.QAA27658@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 9, 99 04:37:45 pm Message-ID: <199904140419.AAA14731@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1008 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990414/bba708f5/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Tue Apr 13 23:28:45 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) In-Reply-To: <001301be8397$0a02ab40$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 10, 99 03:13:23 pm Message-ID: <199904140428.AAA14942@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1808 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990414/d16b60dc/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Apr 13 23:36:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Compupro and DG question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990413222415.492fd97a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > Went scrounging again today. Picked up some good HP stuff. Also found a > Compupro 8/16 chassis with no cards or top cover. Also found a Compupro > Hard Drive Subsystem chassis. It had one 5 1/4" and one 8" floppy drive. > The hard drive and top cover were gone. Is the 8/16 an S-100 chassis? Yes, the 8/16 was an S-100 box. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Apr 13 23:39:30 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:08 2005 Subject: Computer Storage In-Reply-To: <199904140338.AA17929@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Apr 13, 99 11:38:27 pm Message-ID: <199904140439.VAA03959@fraser.sfu.ca> > >You'd know what a camel is then? > > Seems to me I've heard it, but I've also forgotten... "A camel is always a camel, but a real cigar is a smoke" Early 60s advert, as I recall... Hack hack hack, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 13 23:49:28 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <002c01be8632$4268be00$0100c0a8@fuj03> NOW YOU"VE DONE IT!!! I actually went down into the "pit" and found a relevant data book. In this case it's the 1981 Zilog Data Book. The portion of the first chapter, which deals with the CPU, has timing diagrams on pages 18-20, dealing with the opcode fetch (M1)cycle, memory cycles, and I/O cycles. The latter two types show both a read and a write cycle. From the timing diagrams and text it is clear that unless one is concerned with the minutiae of how the external resources are accessed, the only things which need to be accounted for in evaluating the execution time of a series of instructions is how many T-states or clock ticks are required for each cycle type. Without wait states, an M1 CYCLE is ALWAYS 4 clock ticks long, a memory read or write CYCLE is 3 clock ticks long, and an I/O read or write CYCLE is 4 clock ticks. It would be beneficial if we kept this discussion restricted to the two processors at hand, i.e. the Z80 and (if you like) the MOSTEK and NEC "equivalents" which at least claimed to exhibit the same timing characteristics, and the NMOS 6502's in their various speed grades as were available in 1980 more or less. There's no question that this doesn't include the Z8 or the Z180 or the Z280 or any other part, nor does it apply directly to the various other parts which later inherited the 'Z' or some of the genuine Z80 characteristics. There's no doubt the Zilog folks, clever as they were, figured out ways in which to improve their products in later generations. I thought I pretty well covered why it's not relevant how long the bird dips his beak into the memory, so long as you remain mindful of how often, maximally, it can do so. Your statement indicates an awareness of this, but both your statement and your asserted conclusions suggest you've confused the memory access cycle length for the memory cycle rate or frequency. For purposes of clarity I've postulated that there are two parts to every cycle. There are other ways of looking at this, but . . . There's the setup phase and the "active" (for want of a better term) phase. The Z80 active phase cannot be detected externally in the case of instructions which don't access external resources. On a 6502 the active phase is defined by the positive-going (high) portion of the Phase-2 clock. On the Z-80 an active phase can be detected only when it involves external resources. I'd really appreciate you referring me to a page in a data book current at the time which makes any suggestion at all that the Z80 requires any fewer than 3 t-states to execute a non-M1-memory cycle. Even in an LDIR, where there are NO opcode fetches at all once the process begins, each and every memory access takes a minimum of three clock ticks or "t-states." This is true whether the processor is clocked at its maximum or at a much slower rate. This tells us that executing an absolute jump takes the duration of the instruction fetch which means the opcode plus the two byte target address. The diagram clearly shows four normal t-states plus the requisite wait-state commonly inserted in M1 cycles, so, (a) we now have it straight from the horse's mouth that the cycle with the one wait state, as your Ampro Little Board undoubtedly allowed you to observe with your calibrated logic analyzer, the M1 cycle takes a total of 5 t-states in this, the customary implementation, and the two subsequent fetch cycles take three t-states each. So, the absolute jump takes minimally 4+3+3 clock ticks and, as typically implemented, 5+3+3 (=11) clock ticks, not 12 as I estimated, to fetch the entire instruction. The next cycle will ostensibly be an M1 cycle at the 16-bit address fetched as part of the absolute jump instruction. At the very familiar 4 MHz, this is 2.75 microseconds. On the 6502, an opcode fetch takes 1 clock tick. A fetch from memory takes 1 clock tick, and a write to memory takes 1 clock tick. Consequently an absolute jump takes three clock ticks. At 2 MHz, this is 1.5 microseconds. You're right, the 6502 takes two clock ticks to execute any of the "single-cycle" instructons. However, due to the designers' clever use of simple pipelining, it executes two of them in three clock ticks and three of them in four, as the execution of each wholly internal "single-cycle" operation is overlapped with the next opcode fetch, so if you want to argue, it takes only one, with the exception of the fact the first one takes two. Its opcode was fetched during the last cycle of the previous instruction, though, unless it was reached via jump, branch, call or interrupt. What this means is that when you have a succession of ALU operations, e.g, a sequence of shifts, the Z80 should win, right? . . . as it takes only five clock ticks each (with the requisite wait-state) to fetch and execute four successive left shifts, or 20 clock ticks which equals 5 microseconds. On the 6502, because of the pipelining, it takes 5 clock ticks, which, in the case of the 2 MHz processor, is 2.5 microseconds. Please take a look at the additional comments I've embedded in the quoted email below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 7:39 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing > >Yes so? Often the z80 is moving 16bits, with 8bit wide memory it's going >to take several cycles. If it were a z280 that would be even more biased >as it uses fewer "ticks" per cycle and the bus is 16bits wide. Counting >ticks or whatever as I've repeatedly stated meaningless save for >discussions of how memory is used and not who is faster. > >An aside at this point, the z280 runs different cycle timing as @4mhz would >be the base z80 of the same speed and the z380 (in z80 native mode) beats >that as the cycles have been shortend again. This is irrelevant to the comparison between the processors in the title. > >It is not and Like I said the spec is infront of me as I type. Worst case >its 2. But that in itself is again meaningless. please, Please, PLEASE take another look. Remember it's the CYCLE length, not the access strobe width that's relevant to this discussion. > >Your memory is faulty. and that 750ns bumber is still meaningless. they >only number for comparative purposes is the amount of time it takes to do >an absolute jump. For Z80 @4mhz that will be 2.5us. It will require >memory in the 250ns range to do it. I've frequently demonstrated, of late, that my formerly steel-trap-mind has moved significantly in the direction of the polyethylene colander. However, I did still remembered the details I pointed out yesterday, with the exception that I thought the minimal number of T-states in the M1 cycle was five rather than four. . . but I did remember on which pages the diagrams were printed. > >A 2mhz 6502 executes a 1byte (say INX) instuction in 2 machine cycles and >that takes 1uS. Yes, but it executes two of them in three machine cycles, and three in four, etc. due to the pipelining which allows overlapped execution and opcode fetch. >A 4mhz INC B (any register) takes 4 z80 clocks at 4mhz... damm if that >doesn't happen to be 1uS! Where is the speed difference? Yes, but if you execute two of them, it takes 8, and if you execute three it takes 12. That's 3 microseconds. Now, a 2 MHz 6502 takes only 2 microseconds to increment a register twice. >According to my book a 6502 absolute jump takes 3-5 cycles and in the 5 >cycle case its 2.5 us. Not quite . . . the 5 tick jump is an indirect jump, opcode 0x6C. An absolute jump, opcode=0x4C takes only and exactly three clock ticks. > >Exactly my point. The 6502 is not faster, it only marches to a different drummer. Yes, but if you had carefully read the quoted statement from my previous email, you'd have noticed I referenced it to a 1 MHz processor, not a 2 MHz one as was used in the comparison. So you see, for the sake of this comparison, the drummer is beating twice as quickly. > >No again. It can match the z80 and in some cases it's better or worse. > Well, I'd be very pleased to see a block of code written to accomplish any useful (or otherwise definable) task in less time on a 4 MHz Z-80 than it would take a 2 MHz 6502 to achieve the same end. I'm not saying I can write better code than you, nor am I even saying it can't be done. I've never seen it, though. It's virtually impossible to do this against a 1 MHz 6502, and you're allowing me to continue the comparison between a 4MHz Z-80A and a 2 MHz 6502A, right? The immediately following statement which you quoted from my previous email states my view on this. I'd still be interested, if only as point of curiosity. > ><6502. I'm comfortable with the reality that I'll probably never know for > >Agreed well written code is essential for either to do useful work. > > >Therein lies the key. A good system is not always defined by it's >hardware. Systems are a combination of practical hardware and functional >software. This account for why despite their flaws the TRS80, Apple II, >Z80 CPM based as well as others florished. Most people didn't program >8080z806502ti990018028085680980886800065815 they ran basic or a word >processor. the run on of part numbers was deliberate as to most people >the cpu used was just a number. > Quite so, and I'd still be waiting today to get my old 6502 to run WordStar under CP/M . . . > >Allison > > From hhacker at home.com Wed Apr 14 00:22:10 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Description of 11/44 Installed Board Set Message-ID: <12d201be8636$bfe4a020$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Mitch: Don't know if I have a printset. I will look into that question. Zane: The comment on storage capacity was intended to come across as sarcastic. Also, as a comment on the size of hard disk drives now being sold. I mean, I saw a 20GB IBM (I believe) for under $350.00US at Fry's last week. William R. Buckey From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 14 01:57:25 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Description of 11/44 Installed Board Set In-Reply-To: <12d201be8636$bfe4a020$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: >Zane: The comment on storage capacity was intended to come >across as sarcastic. Also, as a comment on the size of hard disk >drives now being sold. I mean, I saw a 20GB IBM (I believe) for >under $350.00US at Fry's last week. > >William R. Buckey Actually I thought I was being the smart ***, in all seriousness that is a large amount of hard drive space for any system that uses the space efficently, and doesn't have graphics or audio files. Besides, I'm a little envious as my /44 only has a pair of RL02's :^) Although 20Mb is more than enough space, and if I need more I can always attach a couple RL01's to bring it up to 30Mb :^) Now if only 20Gb UW-SCSI drives would get that cheap, I'd be a happy man! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Apr 14 00:48:17 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festivalt In-Reply-To: <199904140159.VAA11978@crobin.home.org> References: <199904140116.VAA46434@pechter.dyndns.org> from Bill Pechter at "Apr 13, 99 09:16:41 pm" Message-ID: >Last year's flea market was the year of the cheap 486 (66mhz and below) >and '030 Mac (lots of IIsi and IIci CPUs, often with net cards and >40 or 80mb drives, for $25). You can sort of judge the strata of >"obsolescence" by what is common in a particular year; though you will >see older, it seems to be few and far between. > >I suspect that this will be the year of the low-end Pentium (75-100) and >(I hope) the '040 Macintosh. (I'd like to find a cheap Quadra.) There Please report back on what you find, but it seems to me prices bottomed out last summer during a massive dumping of 4 to 8 year old machines, and since then prices have come back up to more like $40 for a low end 486 without monitor etc. I would not expect to see a Quadra for less than about $75 for a Q610 or Q700, but the little IIsi is still under priced at $25 for a 5/80 IMHO. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Apr 14 00:11:32 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!) In-Reply-To: References: <199904130156.VAA06306@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199904140911.FAA09808@smtp.interlog.com> On 13 Apr 99 at 21:16, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > Anyone remember the original name of the company ? Hint: not what one would > > expect from a solid down-to-earth god-fearing Mormon state like Utah. > > I have a very spacy ad in an old PC World whose slogan is " A word processor > > should be an etension of your mind" . > > But what kind of computer would a satellite software company have been > planning to run that program on before they ported it to the real world? > > Hal ?? lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Apr 14 07:20:40 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: OT: VAX 4000/300 Message-ID: <990414082040.20c00536@trailing-edge.com> >Hello. This 4000/300 has been dominating my computer room for a while, >and I love how it looks, but it'd be great if it worked. > >The boot-diagnostic LED on the inside panel is stuck at 'F'. I don't have a >field service manual, so I don't know the exact meaning. I've checked all >of the boards inside to make sure they're snug inside, but no luck. Nothing >shows up on a terminal hooked up to the MMJ jack. The drives seem to >power up. This means that the DC OK signal on the backplane isn't being asserted. If the Q-bus consists of more than one box chained together, this typically means that at least one of the boxes' power supplies either isn't working or has a sick DC OK signal. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From foxvideo at wincom.net Wed Apr 14 07:41:25 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: VERY OT: Win'98 splash screen In-Reply-To: <01be8627$0b5021c0$538ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990414084125.0079d4b0@mail.wincom.net> At 08:29 PM 4/13/1999 -0700, you wrote: >Me, too, but you don't know my dad... > >He has his computer in the living room, with the screen facing the window, >and he says that he wants it to look nice when it's booting (don't_ask)... > >I think he deleted the spare one, too. I did a search, and can't find it >anywhere. Either the computer didn't come with a copy of the CD on the HD, >or my dad deleted the copy, because I can't find that, either. > >I told him he'd be better off to just put DOS back on the thing.... > >-- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > Are you sure its not a hidden file? Go to "My computer", then VIEW, FOLDER OPTIONS, click on VIEW tab, then "show all files" button and "apply". Don't forget to restore the setting when through. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From guerney at uq.net.au Tue Apr 13 07:42:46 1999 From: guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Calling Richard W. Schauer Message-ID: <000801be867a$863b06e0$e90764cb@default> Richard, My latest e-mail to you has repeatedly bounced as "Sorry, no mailbox here by that name". If you are out there with a new address and want to continue discussing disks for the CPT 8525 then please contact me privately. Phil From manney at hmcltd.net Tue Apr 13 20:27:15 1999 From: manney at hmcltd.net (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: IBM 5181001 Printer available Message-ID: <000901be8616$22efdca0$bf9bfea9@fujitsu-c350> I have an IBM 5181001 "IBM Compact Printer" available. Includes instruction manual. Seems to take roll thermal paper (possibly FAX; although -- knowing IBM -- probably not.) Parallel interface. Anyone interested? P Manney Is it illegal to yell "Movie!" in a fire station? Thousands of discounted photo items at http://www.hmcltd.net/pgphoto -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990413/073ee322/attachment.html From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 14 08:48:49 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <199904140108.SAA05196@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Tom Owad wrote: > I'm thinking about attending the upcoming Trenton Computer Festival. > Unfortunately, if I do go, I won't be able to make it until Sunday. Any > opinions on whether or not the second day of the TCF is worth a two and a > half hour drive? Well, for me the drive has traditionally been an hour and a half, and I often find things on Sunday that weren't there on Saturday -- often due to talking with the vendors, admittedly. This year, it's a shorter trip what with the relocation up to Raritan Center. La Esposa and I are even thinking of attending the banquet for the first time -- then again, she's known Eric Raymond a lot longer than I have (turned down a pass from him at a science fiction convention back when they were both still in their teens). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 14 08:51:56 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festivalt In-Reply-To: <199904140116.VAA46434@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Bill Pechter wrote: > PDP 8's, and PDP11's as well as S100 stuff was common. Now there's some > Sun, Vax, HP Unix stuff, some older S100, H89, H8. Some CP/M (rare) > some Macintosh and Apple II/III... But it's becoming more and more > a Windows and PC kind of show. > > I don't know what it'll be like this year with Ken Gordon running the show > on contract (but I fear the worst). The KGP folks are running the indoors vendor stuff and the admission ticket system. The outdoor swap meet is supposed to be as always. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Apr 13 20:50:18 1999 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 734 In-Reply-To: <199904060702.AAA08197@lists5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >From: Dwight Elvey ... > There were several Forth machines done over the years, ... >Harris made one that was used quite >often for space applications because it was fast >and could run with smaller amounts of code ( a feature >of Forth ). Still makes, the RTX2010. The IMAGE mission that I'm working on will have three of them aboard, running 3 of the 6 instruments, when it lifts off in early 2000. - Mark From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Apr 14 09:44:28 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: The Final Paxton Warehouse Auction announced! Message-ID: Just when you thot it would never happen... (and with almost no notice as usual) Its going down this Saturday, 17-April-1999! Preview at 0900 Auction starts at 1100 Details (such as they are) at: http://members.aol.com/innfograph (for those not familiar with this - its in Portland, Oregon) -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Apr 14 10:12:28 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: The Final Paxton Warehouse Auction announced! In-Reply-To: from James Willing at "Apr 14, 1999 7:44:28 am" Message-ID: <199904141512.LAA60110@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > Just when you thot it would never happen... > (and with almost no notice as usual) > > Its going down this Saturday, 17-April-1999! > > Preview at 0900 Auction starts at 1100 > > Details (such as they are) at: > > http://members.aol.com/innfograph > > (for those not familiar with this - its in Portland, Oregon) > > -jim Boy... I'd kill for the Pro380 parts and old Sun stuff and some of the SCSI stuff. Unfortunately it's the wrong coast and there's not enough time. 8-( Anyone going? Bill From karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au Wed Apr 14 10:27:57 1999 From: karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au (Karl Maftoum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: More odd things: HP150 Message-ID: Today I dusted off the HP150 I picked up the other week, when I saw it I actually believed it was only a terminal, but it had a HP-IB interface which made me pick it up. Discovering that it is a non-IBM compatable 8088 based machine with a touch-screen was nice :-) Not having any drives with it renders it useless as a computer, but I am interested in getting it working as a touch screen terminal, does anyone have the docs for this? or be able to tell me what "Power-on error 1000" means? and how to test out the touchscreen? Megan: I haven't forgotton about the VSV-11, I have holidays next week so I'll fire it up and see if it still works for you, been a busy fortnight :-) Cheers Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Karl Maftoum Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia Email: k.maftoum@student.canberra.edu.au From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 14 11:36:46 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!) Message-ID: > > But what kind of computer would a satellite software company have been > > planning to run that program on before they ported it to the real world? > Hal ?? I can imagine some nutty fanatical CS prof (like me) saying, "If you want TRUE platform independence, then IGNORE all realities of the computer; write your program for an imaginary computer that would be perfect for your needs; then map the keyboard, etc. over to the layout that is present on the real world computer." Is that the way that it happened? Or was there some computer that actually HAD those goofy keys? (There were eventually some aftermarket add-on keyboards for the PC for WordPervert.) Please do NOT interpret this as a defence for MSWeird! From blakeman at creative-net.net Wed Apr 14 11:57:56 1999 From: blakeman at creative-net.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey! References: <3713E75E.5DA3C0F5@banet.net> Message-ID: <3714C913.DF9465F@creative-net.net> Doesn't Allison live in the same town as the developers of this? Have her get a commando unit together and blow them up (kidding). Will Emerson wrote: > I read it.. Hmmmmmm...... "Prohibited from dumping computers and cathode > ray tubes > into landfills"... Good time to make the group known. This _could_ > actually help > our cause, because anyone who lives in, or has driven in Massachusetts > knows that > they don't know a (expletive deleted)ing thing about fixing potholes! > Recycle > that computer the MOST ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY WAY, Have one of US pick > it up! > > Will > > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > > I think it is now safe to say that the State of Massachusetts is the enemy > > of Classic Computer enthusiasts everywhere! > > http://cnn.com/NATURE/9904/07/computers.potholes.ap/ > > > > "We want people to take those computers out > > of the attics, get them out of the landfills and > > make use of the good parts," said Rick > > Lombardi, spokesman for the department. > > "And God knows, we have plenty of potholes > > to fill in New England." > > > > This is sickening! > > > > Zane > > > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > > | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 14 13:18:13 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: More odd things: HP150 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990414131813.228f9a38@intellistar.net> At 01:27 AM 4/15/99 +1000, you wrote: > >Today I dusted off the HP150 I picked up the other week, when I saw it I >actually believed it was only a terminal, but it had a HP-IB interface >which made me pick it up. Discovering that it is a non-IBM compatable 8088 >based machine with a touch-screen was nice :-) Not having any drives with >it renders it useless as a computer, but I am interested in getting it >working as a touch screen terminal, does anyone have the docs for this? or >be able to tell me what "Power-on error 1000" means? The N-cell batteries in the back are dead and it's lost it's CMOS settings. and how to test out >the touchscreen? There are built-in tests. I don't have my manual handy so I can't tell you exactly how to get to them but they're in the menu at the bottom of the screen. I have some floppy and hard drives and prnters that will work with the 150 if you're interested. I have docs and software for it too but I don't have time to make copies. Joe > >Megan: I haven't forgotton about the VSV-11, I have holidays next week so >I'll fire it up and see if it still works for you, been a busy fortnight >:-) > >Cheers >Karl > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > >Karl Maftoum >Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia > >Email: k.maftoum@student.canberra.edu.au > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 14 12:18:26 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: More odd things: HP150 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Karl Maftoum wrote: > Today I dusted off the HP150 I picked up the other week, when I saw it I > actually believed it was only a terminal, but it had a HP-IB interface > which made me pick it up. Discovering that it is a non-IBM compatable 8088 > based machine with a touch-screen was nice :-) Not having any drives with > it renders it useless as a computer, but I am interested in getting it > working as a touch screen terminal, does anyone have the docs for this? or > be able to tell me what "Power-on error 1000" means? and how to test out > the touchscreen? I don't know about Australia, but here in the States the 9121 drives are fairly common at ham fests and surplus shops. Someone may correct me but I believe this is the type of drive that will work with the HP150. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 14 13:33:53 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: More odd things: HP150 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990414133353.3c671b36@intellistar.net> At 10:18 AM 4/14/99 -0700, Sellamou wrote: >I don't know about Australia, but here in the States the 9121 drives are >fairly common at ham fests and surplus shops. Someone may correct me but >I believe this is the type of drive that will work with the HP150. Yes, that's correct. Some will work with the double sided 9122 drives also. It depends on which ROMs they have. Joe From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Apr 14 11:17:51 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Several things Message-ID: <80256753.0059FF81.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> To try and keep this on topic, how did Ferguson do ABS in the early 1970s? I >> don't believe they would have used a microprocessor. I'd guess at an analogue >> computer, probably not even electronic. Would this be less frightening to >> Tony. > > > Was this the Jenson FFS? I've never heard of the Jenson FFS, I'm afraid. The system I was thinking of was called the Ferguson "Formula" All-Wheel Control system. It had four-wheel drive and ABS. I heard about it beacuse one was fitted to a Triumph Stag in ?1973, and said car was on display at the Stag Owners' Club National Day in 1991. Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Apr 14 11:35:24 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Several things Message-ID: <80256753.005B9A9F.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Tony wrote: >> Tony said, on processor design, you can either have one flip-flop to each >> machine state (like a P850) or microcode. Again there are intermediate points. >> I claim you can do quite well by numbering the machine states in a suitably >> chosen binary code and having one flip-flop to each bit. Logic for changing >> flip-flops is often _easier_ than when you have one flip-flop per state. (I > > Although, of course, the advantage of one f/f per state is that you can't > get glitches when you decode the outputs of the flip-flops. Because you don't decode them, right? As Tony probably remembers, my final year project at university was a GPIB interface for a Trend papertape reader (no, it isn't finished yet - ten years on!). My original design used a flip-flop for each machine state in three state machines. I recently looked at using fewer flipflops. I recall one of the state machines had six states. Using three bits, one could define the two redundant states in such a way that this was also glitch-free. Additionally, one of the state variables was an input, not a flipflop... >> have done both designs for the same circuit BTW). If you put this logic into a >> ROM, this becomes in a sense a microcode ROM, but you can do it combinatorially >> as well... > > A ROM _is_ combinatorial logic. I don't want to get into a silly argument > over this, but I have great difficulty finding a conceptual difference > between a combinatorial circuit built from a pile of AND, OR and NOT > gates and the same circuit built (albeit using a lot more transistors) in > a ROM. To claim that a CPU using a ROM is microcoded but one with > _identical_ internal states using simple gates as the feedback logic > round the sequencer flip-flops is not is a very strange way of thinking > about things. Fair enough. Just another example of different places to draw boundaries, with grey areas in between. I would call the ROM version microcoded, and the hard wired version not, because the ROM version contains CODE. (I would agree that the two machines are equivalent, one implemented using a store of (micro-) code and the other using gates.) But your view is equally valid. Perhaps this displays your hardware background and my more software-based upbringing. To show how grey this is, if you use a ROM to implement the combinatorial logic for a flipflop-per-state machine, would you call the code in this ROM microcode? It performs that function, viz. to output signals based on the machine state which control the operation of the machine including the selection of the next state. For that matter, remember your example on this list a while back, using logic gates to implement Z80 instructions. > Well, I might accept it once I'd drawn out the full schematics and > figured out what it was going to do. The problem of what happens if it > fails is another matter, though. As I said time and again, the time to > try a different braking technique is _not_ when the car is skidding all > over the place on a normal road. I'm not convinced the braking technique is different, though. I would generally try to brake thus: brake only just not hard enough to skid. If skid occurs, start pumping. I claim this applies to both sorts of car, but skid is less likely to occur with ABS. I read once (in a sci-fi novel) about a braking system where the brake for each wheel derived hydraulic pressure from a turbine on that axle. ABS wasn't the issue there, but I claim this system is passive and intrinsically anti-lock. It also has the advantage that a failure on one wheel doesn't affect the rest of the vehicle (though with only a small number of wheels, as in a car, this may be a problem). I wonder if something of this nature could be made to work usefully for ABS... Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Apr 14 11:37:42 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <80256753.005BD0D0.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > RS is colloquial for "Rat Sh-t" in Oz, They don't market under that name > here, but as Tandy or Micronta. > (Accurate product description though isn't it?) :-) In the UK they are also generally known as Tandy. RS is a big company (originally Radio Spares) selling electronic components to the trade. Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Apr 14 11:42:52 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: OT: Religious Festivals (was:Re: Fwd: H8 Enthusiasts) Message-ID: <80256753.005C49C7.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > Just back from Warschau (Poland) - Thanks. And BTW: since Karfreitag Where? Oh, you mean Warszawa. Warsaw. ;-) > (Easter Friday sp?) I'm a proud owner of a H8 - I went to Swizerland The Friday before Easter is called Good Friday. I've never managed to work out what "kar" means in your name for it. My favourite, though is Ascension, which I understand you call Himmelfahrt... > with an empty car an came back with some kind of a wight problem, > including an H8 and an Compupro 286 (an S100 286 wit 4 Z80), just > to find aout that I had no Swiss power adaptor at hand (thy use a > different connector)... Sounds fun! Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Apr 14 11:45:10 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51 /4 Message-ID: <80256753.005C7F97.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> > Then there was the Tektronix 'almost 6800' used in the 4052, etc. It was >> > a board of 2901's, etc and ran an instruction set that was almost upwards >> > compatible with the 6800 used in the 4051 (IIRC the DAA instruction was >> >> The moto 6800 was protoed using 2901s. It would only need two. > > The Tektronix used 4 2901's and was actually a 16 bit processor (for > address calculations, etc). Just that user data was only calculated using > 2 of the chips ;-) Hey, Tony, why the winking smiley? That's no joke, it's really true! Four 2901s and a lovely 16bit architecture, and then they go and implement a 6800 on it. :-( :-( :-( Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Apr 14 11:51:32 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: IBM Programmed Symbols Adapter Message-ID: <80256753.005D14F9.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> I just picked up an IBM 3270 Personal Computer Programmed Symbols Adapter >> card in the box. The box says that it's "an option that provides the >> storage and controls for displaying an APL font and six additional >> programmable fonts." It's a full length 8 bit card with two sockets on the >> to edge. There is also two jumpers in the box that I assume are used to >> jumper this card to another card. I didn't get any instructions or >> software with it. Does anyone know how to use it or have instructions etc >> for it? >> >> Joe >> > That sounds like a card which could enable my otherwise useless IBM > monitor meant for the 3270XT. There was a previous discussion on this > machine a while back. I think there were something like 5 cards in the > total array which didn't leave much for peripherals in the XT. On the > other hand I might be thinking of the Epson QX-10 Valdocs :^)) Like Sam, I think of three cards in this connection, but I also recall that not all machines had all cards. The 3270 card may not have been the same card as the display adaptor... On the display side, there was a display card, which may or may not have been part of the terminal card. Without it, you can't drive the 5272 monitor, I'm afraid. In addition, you could get the All Points Addressable (APA) card, which emulated the CGA graphics modes (but note that the 5272 only displays 8 colours), and the PS card, which you have, which emulated the graphics and programmable character set modes of the 3279 terminal. I'm afraid the card on its own won't be of much use... Philip. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 14 16:53:29 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey! In-Reply-To: <3713E75E.5DA3C0F5@banet.net> Message-ID: <199904141954.VAA18711@horus.mch.sni.de> > I read it.. Hmmmmmm...... "Prohibited from dumping computers and cathode > ray tubes > into landfills"... Good time to make the group known. This _could_ > actually help > our cause, because anyone who lives in, or has driven in Massachusetts > knows that > they don't know a (expletive deleted)ing thing about fixing potholes! > Recycle > that computer the MOST ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY WAY, Have one of US pick > it up! True, but as true buerocrats, they will fight us - at least if they love to do things their buerocratic way at least as over here (and I now, US-Buerocrats are able to reach world class ranks :). Sad example: A friend of mine ha s (small) farm an collects cars. Because he is not in Bill G. income class, he focuses on small german '50s cars and has some 7 running (most well restored) cars, and at least a dozend waiting for restoration or serving as spare part supply. No his city officials are about to force him to send his cars to a junk yard, since he is operating an 'unlicensed junk yard' without the proper license and without the leagal needed facilities. All based on environmental laws. Don't get me wrong, these laws have helped to force a lot of bad guys out of business, but as they are followed by some buerocrates, they even go for worse - just imagine they call a 1962 Borgward Isabella Coupe 'Sondermuell' (Hazardous Trash). Just wait until these MA laws will probibit computer collections since they are unlicenced enviromental hazards ! ... Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From fsc729 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 14 15:09:06 1999 From: fsc729 at yahoo.com (John jr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Announcement! Message-ID: <19990414200906.15292.rocketmail@web107.yahoomail.com> Hey I live near Santa Clara when and where is this vintage computer festival going to take place. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 14 15:07:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey! In-Reply-To: <199904141954.VAA18711@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > Sad example: A friend of mine ha s (small) farm an collects cars. > Because he is not in Bill G. income class, he focuses on small > german '50s cars and has some 7 running (most well restored) > cars, and at least a dozend waiting for restoration or serving > as spare part supply. No his city officials are about to force > him to send his cars to a junk yard, since he is operating > an 'unlicensed junk yard' without the proper license and without > the leagal needed facilities. All based on environmental laws. I don't know about Germany, but in California at least, there is a provision in the California Vehicle Code to allow the storage of antique and historical cars without the requirements of regulations and such. An antique car is IIRC any car older than 20 years for the definitions of the statute. > Just wait until these MA laws will probibit computer collections > since they are unlicenced enviromental hazards ! I doubt it. Computers are easier to hide. Also, while the MA law may seem lame, I think most of what you'll see scrapped are old CGA,EGA and VGA monitors that nobody wants anyway. I'd rather see them be reconditioned and put back into schools or donated to organizations or people that can make use of them, but if that's not happening (it takes a lot of work and the dedication of good people) then I'd rather see their materials recycled for some good purpose, like filling potholes. If you're so concerned about computers being ground up to bits, you should go out and start rescuing them. I forget which European country it was (Holland? Sweden?) but I saw a segment on Beyond 2000 a while back that showed a mass recycling plant that took just about every bit of old computers and ground them up for recycling into new computers. This include the CRT glass, the case plastic and metal, the wire, the ICs, PCBs, EVERYTHING! It was amazing. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From max82 at surfree.com Wed Apr 14 14:11:11 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <199904140419.AAA14731@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > -spc (Then again, I know C and not Perl 8-) That's almost impossible. Perl is basically C with some similarities to bash shell scripts. The major difference is that in Perl, the only data types are 'scalar', 'array', and 'hash', which is basically a 2-dimensional array. You don't have to prototype anything which is why I called it a lazy person's C. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Apr 14 15:14:05 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: 8" drive on a pc controller Message-ID: <199904142014.UAA09608@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Well, I'm about to start making various custom ribbon cables, for hooking a terak disk drive to a pc controller, to connect a DSDD 8" drive to a pc controller, and to connect a 5.25" drive to a 8" controller (cromemco). As I dont have all the necessary connectors yet, my first attempt will be hooking a terak drive to my PC. I have 3 different documents all describing this sort of thing, and it looks like you have to read carefully and consider exactly what you're trying to connect, in order to get a few of the lines connected correctly. Thats fine, i'll see if i can figure that out. One thing concerns me though. My oldest document mentions using pull-up resistors connected to a +5 source, on 11 of the connections on the 50 pin side. The explanation is that some signals are open collector driven, and thus you need 2200 Ohm pull up resistors. Does anyone know what the deal is, and is this really necessary, or just a nice idea that you can usually ignore... -Lawrence LeMay PS: The terak drive is a SSSD shugart, and it has a 40 pin external connector on the case (they dont bother connecting the first 10 pins). From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Apr 14 15:28:16 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: OT: Religious Festivals (was:Re: Fwd: H8 Enthusiasts) In-Reply-To: <80256753.005C49C7.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990414162816.009bd560@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Philip.Belben@pgen.com had spoken clearly: [snip] >The Friday before Easter is called Good Friday. I've never managed to work out >what "kar" means in your name for it. My favourite, though is Ascension, which >I understand you call Himmelfahrt... Literally, "gone to Heaven" -- my wife's maiden name (unmarried -- not sure of the Deutsch translation) is Himmel (yes, and of German decent), so I'm well aware of the translation of that word. So, when my (then) girlfriend and I did the things you were supposed to be married to do, I described them as "having a piece of Heaven..." ;-) ;-) Funny, not that many people actually caught on... :-) [[ Unforch, now that we're married, we don't seem to have *time*... ]] The only off-topic post I have time for, so be relieved! ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From max82 at surfree.com Wed Apr 14 14:26:11 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: >scrapped are old CGA,EGA and VGA monitors that nobody wants anyway. I'd Actually, you might see 486s also. I spent half an hour last saturday smashing all kinds of computers, from PS/2 Model 30 to DEC 486. They were being trashed, and we decided to have some fun while we were at it. We stomped on them till they were practically pancakes (the drives had been removed). It was quite fun :) --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 14 15:28:48 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Announcement! References: <19990414200906.15292.rocketmail@web107.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <3714FA80.FFBC2345@rain.org> John jr wrote: > > Hey I live near Santa Clara when and where is this vintage computer > festival going to take place. Sam has the VCF URL in his sig, but in case you missed it: http://www.vintage.org/vcf. And to put in a good word, it has been a tremendously good thing! Advantatges? The display of older computers is a chance to actually see some of these ancient beasts we talk about on the list. Last year, one of the sellers described it as being basically a "social event"; it is a wonderful way to meet other people interested in the same things we are. And don't forget the sellers area. The prices on almost everything I have seen is for the most part fairly reasonable. And if it is not reasonable, look at it as another part of the computer exhibits! Stuff sold last year? Let's see: PC Jr., C-16, MITS 680, C-64SX, Atari, HP, TRS, Cray boards, Morrow, ... My mind is sleepy right now, but perhaps others can fill in more stuff that was sold. Fortunately, there has been little in the way of DEC stuff to get in the way (ducking and running :). ) Actually, it would be nice to see some of the PDP series exhibited (I think there was at VCF 1.0.) I think though that the sellers area is where most of the interesting conversations, etc. take place. And of course there was a rumor that at last years event, an Apple I sold for about $2K. With the additional interest in older computers that is being GREATLY helped by ebay (and others), it wouldn't surprise me to see the attendence go up many times that of the past. From bill at chipware.com Wed Apr 14 15:30:16 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: 8" drive on a pc controller Message-ID: <199904142030.NAA22011@mxu1.u.washington.edu> I did the same thing for an OSI system a few months ago. Look in the list archive. In brief: 1) using the second set of pinouts in the comp.os.cpm faq worked best for me. 2) build your converter on a Radio Shack Experimenters board (part no. 276-168B). Works very well. 3) use 22disk version 1.31 or earlier. Newer versions have timing problems with 8 inchers. From spc at armigeron.com Wed Apr 14 15:29:46 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 14, 99 03:11:11 pm Message-ID: <199904142029.QAA06041@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1655 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990414/3afba376/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 14 15:52:31 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Announcement! In-Reply-To: <19990414200906.15292.rocketmail@web107.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, John jr wrote: > Hey I live near Santa Clara when and where is this vintage computer > festival going to take place. October 2-3. If you don't come you'll wake up on Monday, October 4th, with much regret. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 14 13:41:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Description of 11/44 Installed Board Set In-Reply-To: <12c701be861f$673f4360$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> from "Buck Savage" at Apr 13, 99 07:35:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2349 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990414/86beca92/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 14 13:46:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M In-Reply-To: <199904140254.AA14647@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 13, 99 10:54:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1164 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990414/8e0b6cf6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 14 13:48:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: OT: VAX 4000/300 In-Reply-To: <19990413222715.B5679@www> from "cstone" at Apr 13, 99 10:27:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 489 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990414/1d6d1012/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 14 13:28:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Software collectors list In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 13, 99 06:39:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1378 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990414/2b74e415/attachment.ksh From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Apr 14 15:37:07 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: More odd things: HP150 In-Reply-To: Karl Maftoum's message of Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:27:57 +1000 (EST) References: Message-ID: <199904142037.NAA15685@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Karl Maftoum wrote: > be able to tell me what "Power-on error 1000" means? and how to test out > the touchscreen? Joe thinks that that is "batteries dead", and I can't remember. One other thing you may want to do, assuming this is the sort of 150 with a 9-inch (~23cm) screen, is to get a can of compressed air and blow the dust out of the touchscreen sensor holes -- part of the power-on self-test checks out the touchscreen (if present) and if some of the sensors don't see the IR light it will fail with some other code (F000? -- it's been a long time!). The computer will continue to work (maybe even the touchscreen will!) after this though. Yeah, there's also a 150 with a 12-inch screen that is tiltable. That is a 150C aka Touchscreen II and it has later ROMs that know about more devices. I don't really know how to tell the difference between a 150A, a 150B, and a 150A with the later B ROMs (yes an upgrade was available). -Frank McConnell From donm at cts.com Wed Apr 14 16:05:48 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: 8" drive on a pc controller In-Reply-To: <199904142030.NAA22011@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I did the same thing for an OSI system a few > months ago. Look in the list archive. In brief: > > 1) using the second set of pinouts in the comp.os.cpm > faq worked best for me. > > 2) build your converter on a Radio Shack Experimenters > board (part no. 276-168B). Works very well. > > 3) use 22disk version 1.31 or earlier. Newer versions have > timing problems with 8 inchers. Oh? I'm running v1.44 and have no such problems. - don From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Apr 14 16:08:30 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Software collectors list Message-ID: <01BE8699.6C14BFD0.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > As I understand the charter (and please correct me), this list is for the > discussion of any computer-related item over 10 years old. This includes > hardware, software, peripherals, storage media, preservation, repair, etc. > > While I'm not particularly interested in old application software, I > don't think anyone would mind a discussion of it here. > > -tony > These old computers aren't much good without the software. I'd welcome the discussion as long as it's not the same old "Linux is great, MS sucks" rant. There are more appropriate places for that discussion. Personally, I found the PICK messages to be enlightning and informative. Discussions of that nature are a real asset to the group. Just my $.02 Steve Robertson - From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Apr 14 16:08:06 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey! Message-ID: <91f70de6.24465db6@aol.com> In a message dated 14/04/99 16:32:06 Eastern Daylight Time, max82@surfree.com writes: << Actually, you might see 486s also. I spent half an hour last saturday smashing all kinds of computers, from PS/2 Model 30 to DEC 486. They were being trashed, and we decided to have some fun while we were at it. We stomped on them till they were practically pancakes (the drives had been removed). It was quite fun :) >> that was a rather stupid thing to do. All of those computers could have been of some use, if not to just be salvaged for parts to revive other computers. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 14 16:07:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Several things In-Reply-To: <80256753.005B9A9F.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Apr 14, 99 05:35:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2366 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990414/9a0c4380/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 14 16:14:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: 8" drive on a pc controller In-Reply-To: <199904142014.UAA09608@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Apr 14, 99 08:14:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1119 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990414/e64c2f25/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgocable.net Wed Apr 14 16:38:22 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey! In-Reply-To: <91f70de6.24465db6@aol.com> Message-ID: <199904142133.RAA29533@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:08:06 EDT Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey! > In a message dated 14/04/99 16:32:06 Eastern Daylight Time, > max82@surfree.com writes: > > << Actually, you might see 486s also. I spent half an hour last saturday > smashing all kinds of computers, from PS/2 Model 30 to DEC 486. They were Snip! > > that was a rather stupid thing to do. All of those computers could have > been of some use, if not to just be salvaged for parts to revive other > computers. > Suprdave IS Dead Right. Remember, we asked your truly for odd parts from those? And, they still have useful functions as other uses and parts. I suggest: Come back and pick out good parts out of remains for useful parts and rescue parts and drives out of "unsmashed" computers. Thats the reason. :-( Wizard From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Apr 14 16:48:03 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Announcement! In-Reply-To: References: <19990414200906.15292.rocketmail@web107.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990414144706.03c18130@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 01:52 PM 4/14/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >October 2-3. If you don't come you'll wake up on Monday, October 4th, >with much regret. If we had any sort of advertising budget I'd suggest that people who don't want to keep their non-Y2K compliant computers (say pre-1989) should bring them to give away at the swap meet portion :-) --Chuck From blakeman at creative-net.net Wed Apr 14 16:45:39 1999 From: blakeman at creative-net.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:09 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey! References: Message-ID: <37150C82.65823079@creative-net.net> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > > Sad example: A friend of mine ha s (small) farm an collects cars. > > Because he is not in Bill G. income class, he focuses on small > > german '50s cars and has some 7 running (most well restored) > > cars, and at least a dozend waiting for restoration or serving > > as spare part supply. No his city officials are about to force > > him to send his cars to a junk yard, since he is operating > > an 'unlicensed junk yard' without the proper license and without > > the leagal needed facilities. All based on environmental laws. > > I don't know about Germany, but in California at least, there is a > provision in the California Vehicle Code to allow the storage of antique > and historical cars without the requirements of regulations and such. An > antique car is IIRC any car older than 20 years for the definitions of the > statute. > > > Just wait until these MA laws will probibit computer collections > > since they are unlicenced enviromental hazards ! > > I doubt it. Computers are easier to hide. > > Also, while the MA law may seem lame, I think most of what you'll see > scrapped are old CGA,EGA and VGA monitors that nobody wants anyway. I'd > rather see them be reconditioned and put back into schools or donated to > organizations or people that can make use of them, but if that's not > happening (it takes a lot of work and the dedication of good people) then > I'd rather see their materials recycled for some good purpose, like > filling potholes. > > If you're so concerned about computers being ground up to bits, you should > go out and start rescuing them. > > I forget which European country it was (Holland? Sweden?) but I saw a > segment on Beyond 2000 a while back that showed a mass recycling plant > that took just about every bit of old computers and ground them up for > recycling into new computers. This include the CRT glass, the case plastic > and metal, the wire, the ICs, PCBs, EVERYTHING! It was amazing. Some states/localities also include those that have no new source uder 20 yrs old, such as Deloreans. While not a true antique they are a collectable and somewhat historical (and sometimes hysterical). From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Apr 14 12:55:09 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: IBM Programmed Symbols Adapter In-Reply-To: <80256753.005D14F9.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <199904142154.RAA02985@smtp.interlog.com> On 14 Apr 99 at 17:51, Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > > > >> I just picked up an IBM 3270 Personal Computer Programmed Symbols Adapter > >> card in the box. The box says that it's "an option that provides the > >> storage and controls for displaying an APL font and six additional > >> programmable fonts." It's a full length 8 bit card with two sockets on the > >> to edge. There is also two jumpers in the box that I assume are used to > >> jumper this card to another card. I didn't get any instructions or > >> software with it. Does anyone know how to use it or have instructions etc > >> for it? > >> > >> Joe > >> > > That sounds like a card which could enable my otherwise useless IBM > > monitor meant for the 3270XT. There was a previous discussion on this > > machine a while back. I think there were something like 5 cards in the > > total array which didn't leave much for peripherals in the XT. On the > > other hand I might be thinking of the Epson QX-10 Valdocs :^)) > > Like Sam, I think of three cards in this connection, but I also recall that not > all machines had all cards. The 3270 card may not have been the same card as > the display adaptor... > > On the display side, there was a display card, which may or may not have been > part of the terminal card. Without it, you can't drive the 5272 monitor, I'm > afraid. In addition, you could get the All Points Addressable (APA) card, which > emulated the CGA graphics modes (but note that the 5272 only displays 8 > colours), and the PS card, which you have, which emulated the graphics and > programmable character set modes of the 3279 terminal. > > I'm afraid the card on its own won't be of much use... > > Philip. > Muellers 3rd edition mentions 3 to 6 custom cards. You also required the 3270PC keyboard and the 5272 monitor which allegedly was comparable to an EGA. Other than that it was a stock XT M-B He outlines the boards which are 1. 3270 System Adapter- to connect to a remote 3274 controller 2. Display Adapter- extended-character in 8 colors 3. Extended Graphics Adapter for local graphics in Hi (2colorsat 720x350 or 640x200) and med. (4 colors at 360x350 or 320x200) IBM called this an XGA not the same as the PS2 Extended Graphics ARRAY. 4. Programmed Symbols Adapter to provide graphics capabilities available on 3278/3279 display stations. Needed the XGA in an adjacent slot. Joes' card. 5. Keyboard Adapter - went in the 8th slot and connected the special K-B. On delivery the XT slots in the 3270PC were filled with the Sys adapter, the display adapter,K-B adapter, FDD adapter, and HDD controller. With the graphic adapter and memory multifunction card not much room left. Interestingly the 3270PC Control Program allowed up to 7 windows at one time. Shades of things to come. Apparently there was also an AT version. The XT 370 however used 3 cards. All according to Mueller as I've never seen either of these. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Apr 14 12:55:11 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199904142154.RAA03018@smtp.interlog.com> On 14 Apr 99 at 9:36, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > > But what kind of computer would a satellite software company have been > > > planning to run that program on before they ported it to the real world? > > Hal ?? > > I can imagine some nutty fanatical CS prof (like me) saying, "If you want > TRUE platform independence, then IGNORE all realities of the computer; > write your program for an imaginary computer that would be perfect for > your needs; then map the keyboard, etc. over to the layout that is present > on the real world computer." > > Is that the way that it happened? Or was there some computer that > actually HAD those goofy keys? (There were eventually some aftermarket > add-on keyboards for the PC for WordPervert.) > > > Please do NOT interpret this as a defence for MSWeird! > That would be a Tesla way of engineering. So much development is incremental. How to build a better mousetrap. As a result little of technology today is truly innovative and if the scuttlebut is true, any that is, is bought up and suppressed by the large corporations whose interest is the bottom line. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Apr 14 17:05:10 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: AT&T 3B2 Message-ID: <199904142205.WAA09777@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Well, theres good news and bad news. The good news is, I saved a pair of AT&T 3B2 computers. The bad news is, they have been trashed pretty badly by our local chapter of ACM. No screws holding the case together, or even holding most of the internal stuff together (power supply floating around, floppy floating, etc). The case is not attractive, and one has spray painted words on it, i think in an attempt to prevent theft (i guess it stops dumb thieves who cant figure out hwo to ether remove teh paint, or paint over the paint). Anyways, any pointers to 3B2 information would be helpful. Possibly these are only good for parts, i know they only had one of them working, and that one apparently woudl crash frequently... These are 3B2/300's if that matters much. -Lawrence LeMay From bill at chipware.com Wed Apr 14 17:16:08 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: 8" drive on a pc controller Message-ID: <199904142215.PAA08475@mxu2.u.washington.edu> > Oh? I'm running v1.44 and have no such problems. Try creating a disk with a large directory, more than two tracks. Then try to display the directory. On all of the drives that I have tried, you will hear that little "click/tick" sound indicating that it tried to step the heads too fast. You will then get a spurious media failure message. Of course, it is possible that I missed something in the instructions, but I beat my head against it for a long time. Then tried the older version where you can manually set the step delay and volia! No problems. From max82 at surfree.com Wed Apr 14 16:43:27 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey! In-Reply-To: <91f70de6.24465db6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: >that was a rather stupid thing to do. All of those computers could have been >of some use, if not to just be salvaged for parts to revive other computers. Everybody here is _swamped_ with computers. We get them faster than we can offload them. If we refuse them, somebody else will throw them away. We did remove all valuable parts, of course. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From max82 at surfree.com Wed Apr 14 16:44:21 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey! In-Reply-To: <199904142133.RAA29533@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 jpero@cgocable.net wrote: >I suggest: >Come back and pick out good parts out of remains for useful parts >and rescue parts and drives out of "unsmashed" computers. I'd be quite willing to set up a 'part broadcasting center' for a certain fee.... --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Apr 14 17:52:13 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: polarised floppy connectors Message-ID: <199904142252.WAA09840@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Ok, on a polarised 34 pin floppy connector, which end is pin 1? I'd rather not wire my adapter cables backwards, even though they would still be usable if i connected it to a non-polarised adapter... -Lawrence LeMay From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 14 18:50:32 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: AT&T 3B2 In-Reply-To: <199904142205.WAA09777@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990414185032.42d76336@intellistar.net> Lawrence, I have a pair of 3B2s but I've never had time to try them out. I just got some manuals for them but I think the manuals are for a 3B2 500. A guy is supposed to be sending me copies of the servive manual on CD for the 3B2s. Search the net, there are lots of archives for the 3B2s. Joe At 10:05 PM 4/14/99 GMT, you wrote: >Well, theres good news and bad news. The good news is, I saved a pair of >AT&T 3B2 computers. The bad news is, they have been trashed pretty badly >by our local chapter of ACM. > >No screws holding the case together, or even holding most of the internal >stuff together (power supply floating around, floppy floating, etc). The >case is not attractive, and one has spray painted words on it, i think >in an attempt to prevent theft (i guess it stops dumb thieves who cant >figure out hwo to ether remove teh paint, or paint over the paint). > >Anyways, any pointers to 3B2 information would be helpful. Possibly these >are only good for parts, i know they only had one of them working, and that >one apparently woudl crash frequently... > >These are 3B2/300's if that matters much. > >-Lawrence LeMay > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 14 19:00:33 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: More odd things: HP150 In-Reply-To: <199904142037.NAA15685@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990414190033.3e97c4c6@intellistar.net> At 01:37 PM 4/14/99 -0700, Frank wrote: >Yeah, there's also a 150 with a 12-inch screen that is tiltable. That >is a 150C aka Touchscreen II and it has later ROMs that know about >more devices. I don't really know how to tell the difference between >a 150A, a 150B, and a 150A with the later B ROMs (yes an upgrade was >available). One of the menu screens will show the ROM revisions but I don't remember what revision level you need in order to use the bigger drives. All of the 150s that I've tried had the revised ROMs and could use the bigger drives so I'd say your chances are good. BTW the Touchscreen II has lots more changes than just the ROMs. The box is entirely different and uses different internal and expansion cards. The keyboard is a standard HP-HIL instead of specialized one. There's no socket for a 8087 in a TS-II. The toushscreen is optional in the TS-II and I think it came with more memory and was faster. Joe > >-Frank McConnell > From jpero at cgocable.net Wed Apr 14 18:01:08 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey! In-Reply-To: References: <199904142133.RAA29533@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199904142256.SAA19769@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:44:21 -0400 (EDT) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Max Eskin To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey! Originally to: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 jpero@cgocable.net wrote: > >I suggest: > >Come back and pick out good parts out of remains for useful parts > >and rescue parts and drives out of "unsmashed" computers. > > I'd be quite willing to set up a 'part broadcasting center' for a certain > fee.... --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is > Power > Max, THIS is the place to put this info for everyone to look at that is what all is for! Your school could make bit of money for other events by selling them for few dollars each roughly and everyone pays shipping. I had to rescue an Everex Step 386/25 with yellow diagnostic display and few other "useful" junk. Very interesting features designed into that everex thing: 256K cache, can handle up to 64MB and few things in it. That "junk" came from a douated government stuff piled high in LARGE amounts enough to fill at least 2 full length trucks at high school who have to toss them what left out too after finished their cherrypicking them for their uses. Wizard From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Apr 14 18:07:20 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: polarised floppy connectors In-Reply-To: <199904142252.WAA09840@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from Lawrence LeMay at "Apr 14, 1999 10:52:13 pm" Message-ID: <199904142307.XAA09873@thorin.cs.umn.edu> DOH! I just saw the little triange that apparently indicated pin 1. It was extremely small and hard to see on the black connectors. -Lawrence LeMay > Ok, on a polarised 34 pin floppy connector, which end is pin 1? > > I'd rather not wire my adapter cables backwards, even though they would > still be usable if i connected it to a non-polarised adapter... > > -Lawrence LeMay > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 14 16:45:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: Software collectors list In-Reply-To: <01BE8699.6C14BFD0.steverob@hotoffice.com> from "Steve Robertson" at Apr 14, 99 05:08:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1408 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990414/e4a945c0/attachment.ksh From karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au Wed Apr 14 18:26:52 1999 From: karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au (Karl Maftoum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: More odd things: HP150 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990414131813.228f9a38@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > The N-cell batteries in the back are dead and it's lost it's CMOS settings. :-) Great, at least it's not something major. > There are built-in tests. I don't have my manual handy so I can't tell > you exactly how to get to them but they're in the menu at the bottom of the > screen. There is a touchscreen alignment option, but i've yet to figure out if it's working properly. Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Karl Maftoum Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia Email: k.maftoum@student.canberra.edu.au From karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au Wed Apr 14 18:28:00 1999 From: karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au (Karl Maftoum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: More odd things: HP150 In-Reply-To: <199904142037.NAA15685@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: > Joe thinks that that is "batteries dead", and I can't remember. One > other thing you may want to do, assuming this is the sort of 150 with > a 9-inch (~23cm) screen, is to get a can of compressed air and blow the > dust out of the touchscreen sensor holes -- part of the power-on > self-test checks out the touchscreen (if present) and if some of the > sensors don't see the IR light it will fail with some other code (F000? > -- it's been a long time!). The computer will continue to work (maybe > even the touchscreen will!) after this though. I might do that actually. > Yeah, there's also a 150 with a 12-inch screen that is tiltable. That > is a 150C aka Touchscreen II and it has later ROMs that know about > more devices. I don't really know how to tell the difference between > a 150A, a 150B, and a 150A with the later B ROMs (yes an upgrade was > available). This is a 150A, 9-inch screen etc. Cheers Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Karl Maftoum Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia Email: k.maftoum@student.canberra.edu.au From elvey at hal.com Wed Apr 14 18:37:42 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: 8" drive on a pc controller In-Reply-To: <199904142014.UAA09608@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <199904142337.QAA07898@civic.hal.com> Lawrence LeMay wrote: > The explanation is that some signals are open > collector driven, and thus you need 2200 Ohm pull up resistors. > Does anyone know what the deal is, and is this really necessary, or > just a nice idea that you can usually ignore... Hi Lawrence First the bad news: Yes you must have pull-up resistors. Next the good news: Most drives have a socket that will either take a resistor network or jumpers to resistors. The idea here is the device at the end of the daisy chain would be the only one with the pull-up resistors. This doesn't effect the cables, only how you set up the optional parts of the drives. Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 14 18:46:41 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M Message-ID: <199904142346.AA03105@world.std.com> Hate to use the list for this purpose but he doesn't seem to be responding to any email lately. Does anybody know why? Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 14 18:32:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: More odd things: HP150 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990414190033.3e97c4c6@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Apr 14, 99 07:00:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1519 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990415/b93d4d98/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 14 18:34:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: polarised floppy connectors In-Reply-To: <199904142252.WAA09840@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Apr 14, 99 10:52:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 386 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990415/91a0af05/attachment.ksh From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Apr 14 19:58:18 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: step signal on 8" floppy drive Message-ID: <199904150058.AAA10019@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Hmm, perhaps wiring an external Terak floppy drive to a PC is a bit more complicated than i thought. I forgot that the Terak main unit controls the power switch on the external drive somehow. Looking inside teh case, it looks like the signal wires that correspond to "Step" have a special connection in addition to going to the floppy drive. This must be what is controlling the on/off switch, but i'm curious now as to how the "Step" signal is supposed to work. Does anyone see how this might be used to control the power? And do you think i'm completely nuts to connect this thing to my PC, ie, is it likely to burn out the motherboard ;) ... Ah well, its not like it would be the first time i fried a computer. -Lawrence LeMay From fpp at concentric.net Wed Apr 14 20:29:20 1999 From: fpp at concentric.net (Paul Passmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: Has anybody heard from Wirehead? Message-ID: <001901be86df$63c77e80$21f9adce@paul> I haven't heard from him either. He cashed my check on April 5, 1999. Let me know if you hear from him. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 14 20:24:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M In-Reply-To: <199904142346.AA03105@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 14, 99 07:46:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1194 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990415/d50c8409/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 14 20:31:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: step signal on 8" floppy drive In-Reply-To: <199904150058.AAA10019@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Apr 15, 99 00:58:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1424 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990415/9c1d7e31/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 14 21:55:17 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: More odd things: HP150 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990414131813.228f9a38@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990414215517.3bb7082a@intellistar.net> At 09:26 AM 4/15/99 +1000, you wrote: > >There is a touchscreen alignment option, but i've yet to figure out if >it's working properly. I've never had much luck with that one. There are other tests there somewhere in the menu. Joe From stan at netcom.com Wed Apr 14 21:00:08 1999 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: HP-85 belts: a day late and a dollar short? References: <199904142307.XAA09873@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <37154828.31D53C5@netcom.com> Hello all, I hope I'm not too late... Just today I acquired an HP-85B with power supply problems that I'm in the process of troubleshooting. On opening it up, I noticed that the drive belts on the printer mechanism were in terrible condition, although the rest of the innards look pretty nice. I remember reading on this list a few weeks ago about a "group belt buy" for these machines. Is there a way I can still get a set for my "new" -85? Thanks in advance, Stan From jruschme at exit109.com Wed Apr 14 21:05:06 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festivalt In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Apr 13, 99 10:48:17 pm" Message-ID: <199904150205.WAA13856@crobin.home.org> > >I suspect that this will be the year of the low-end Pentium (75-100) and > >(I hope) the '040 Macintosh. (I'd like to find a cheap Quadra.) There > > Please report back on what you find, but it seems to me prices bottomed out > last summer during a massive dumping of 4 to 8 year old machines, and since > then prices have come back up to more like $40 for a low end 486 without > monitor etc. I would not expect to see a Quadra for less than about $75 for > a Q610 or Q700, but the little IIsi is still under priced at $25 for a 5/80 > IMHO. Out of curiousity, I took a look at ebay to see what Centris/Quadra 610s were going for. $75 seemed to be the normal to high end for a Quadra 610- most of those in the stock 8/230 configuration. Prices seemed commensurately lower for a Centris 610 with high bids on some stripped (4/0) configurations going as low as $33. Okay, so maybe it's the year of the $50 '040. :-) <<>> From max82 at surfree.com Wed Apr 14 20:20:30 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey! In-Reply-To: <199904142256.SAA19769@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 jpero@cgocable.net wrote: >I had to rescue an Everex Step 386/25 with yellow diagnostic >display and few other "useful" junk. Very interesting features >designed into that everex thing: 256K cache, can handle up to >64MB and few things in it. That "junk" came from a douated >government stuff piled high in LARGE amounts enough to fill at >least 2 full length trucks at high school who have to toss them what >left out too after finished their cherrypicking them for their uses. OK, I'll post weekly lists of stuff to be thrown away. I will charge 1.2*(cost of shipping). However, I can assure you that there is nothing 'interesting' being thrown away. This is all plain vanilla stuff. There are some interesting things there (a bunch of dual-486 ISA cards) which are being kept :) --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 14 21:28:39 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: AT&T 3B2 In-Reply-To: <199904142205.WAA09777@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > No screws holding the case together, or even holding most of the internal > stuff together (power supply floating around, floppy floating, etc). The > case is not attractive, and one has spray painted words on it, i think > in an attempt to prevent theft (i guess it stops dumb thieves who cant > figure out hwo to ether remove teh paint, or paint over the paint). Gasoline apparently works to remove spray paint from painted metal surfaces (perhaps plastic surfaces as well?) Never tried it, but I saw it demonstrated on The People's Court one time in a vandalism case. Worked like a champ. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Apr 14 21:30:36 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: The Final Paxton Warehouse Auction announced! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990414193036.00980190@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 07:44 14-04-1999 -0700, you wrote: >Just when you thot it would never happen... > (and with almost no notice as usual) > >Its going down this Saturday, 17-April-1999! > >Preview at 0900 Auction starts at 1100 Another auction. Why couldn't he just make it a warehouse sale? Ahh, well... caveat emptor! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Apr 14 21:34:21 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: Several things In-Reply-To: <80256753.0059FF81.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <199904150234.MAA32720@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 17:17 14/04/99 +0100, Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: >I've never heard of the Jenson FFS, I'm afraid. The system I was thinking of >was called the Ferguson "Formula" All-Wheel Control system. It had four-wheel >drive and ABS. I heard about it beacuse one was fitted to a Triumph Stag in >?1973, and said car was on display at the Stag Owners' Club National Day in >1991. OK, we're so far off topic but still. The Jensen was the FF (for Formula Ferguson). This had a Chrysler V8, four wheel drive and ABS. One Triumph Stag had the same drivetrain (I read about this the other day in one of my classic car mags). This message had no on topic material at all. Dig out a 10+ year old flame and send it!! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 14 21:45:46 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M Message-ID: <199904150245.AA12243@world.std.com> ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:46:16 -0700 Max, How many of the oddball PS2 floppy drives were wasted? I could use one or two. Sure they arent valueable but when you need one... I also use parts to the soldered board level. As to your comment 1.2*shipping, that's actually quite fair. MA is the enemy, they want to make up all poor. Allison From jruschme at exit109.com Wed Apr 14 22:01:50 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey! In-Reply-To: from Max Eskin at "Apr 14, 99 09:20:30 pm" Message-ID: <199904150301.XAA00437@crobin.home.org> > On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 jpero@cgocable.net wrote: > >I had to rescue an Everex Step 386/25 with yellow diagnostic > >display and few other "useful" junk. Very interesting features > >designed into that everex thing: 256K cache, can handle up to > >64MB and few things in it. That "junk" came from a douated > >government stuff piled high in LARGE amounts enough to fill at > >least 2 full length trucks at high school who have to toss them what > >left out too after finished their cherrypicking them for their uses. > > OK, I'll post weekly lists of stuff to be thrown away. I will charge > 1.2*(cost of shipping). However, I can assure you that there is nothing > 'interesting' being thrown away. This is all plain vanilla stuff. There > are some interesting things there (a bunch of dual-486 ISA cards) which > are being kept :) Please don't forget to also mention any Apple/Mac stuff to be thrown away. <<>> From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Apr 14 22:05:34 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: step signal on 8" floppy drive In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 15, 1999 02:31:21 am" Message-ID: <199904150305.DAA10161@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > > > Hmm, perhaps wiring an external Terak floppy drive to a PC is a bit > > more complicated than i thought. > > > > I forgot that the Terak main unit controls the power switch on the > > external drive somehow. Looking inside teh case, it looks like the > > signal wires that correspond to "Step" have a special connection > > in addition to going to the floppy drive. This must be what is > > controlling the on/off switch, but i'm curious now as to how the > > "Step" signal is supposed to work. Does anyone see how this might > > be used to control the power? > > IS it _only_ the step wires that are used like that? > > What do they connect to? How complex is the (presumed) PCB? COuld you > trace out the schematic? > > My guess is that as the Step wires are normally high and pulse low > briefly to move the head, the power switch circuit detects if Step is > stuck low, and assumes the computer is turned off if that's the case. > Sort of thing you could detect with a TTL monostable chip. > > > > > And do you think i'm completely nuts to connect this thing to my > > PC, ie, is it likely to burn out the motherboard ;) ... Ah well, > > Should be OK. It's all TTL level signals (and open-collector ones at > that), so you shouldn't do any damage.. > > Of course modern FDCs in PCs have the cable drivers built into a large > ASIC (along with the rest of the FDC, IDE port, serial ports, etc), which > makes repairing a blown driver a little hard. > > -tony > Hmm, The circuit is reasonably complex, in that it keeps connecting to various power circuit connectors. But this is what the start of the circuit appears to do. The 2 Step wires appear to connect to the wire coil that controls a DPDT relay switch. The coil part of the diagram on the relay says 12 VDC, though apparently we're feeding this with 5 VDC? Even though the switch appears to be DPDT, its being used as a DPST. When the relay is activated, two separate connections are made, and these go to the power and other connectors, amoung other things i'm sure. Is it reasonable to think that the Step current is enough to hold the relay activated, even when its briefly interrupted? Seems wrong to me. OK, on further examination one switch appears to connect one of the AC wires to the rest of the board, and the other might act in a similar fashion. Case ground (3rd pin from the power cable) is always connected as expected. So, this relay does as we expect, it turns the unit on and off. So, is there some sort of a digital latch circuit? Well, I dont see much in the way of digital stuff. There are 2 small transistors and 2 IC's reasonably near this relay, with 2 more IC's a bit farther away, and that appears to be it besides a LOT of resistors, capacitors, diodes, and other power circuit stuff. First 2 IC's are LM139J and LM124J. Other two are both SG3524N (regulating pulse width modulator, whatever that is). Anything ringing a bell? -Lawrence LeMay From jpero at cgocable.net Wed Apr 14 22:27:00 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey! In-Reply-To: References: <199904142256.SAA19769@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199904150322.XAA09724@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:20:30 -0400 (EDT) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Max Eskin To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey! Originally to: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Hi Max, > OK, I'll post weekly lists of stuff to be thrown away. I will charge > 1.2*(cost of shipping). However, I can assure you that there is nothing > 'interesting' being thrown away. This is all plain vanilla stuff. There > are some interesting things there (a bunch of dual-486 ISA cards) which > are being kept :) Well, that sort of these I'd love to have and some CPU's little things. But we have no idea what it's there so thanks for your listing here next time around. That is how we does because others keeps lookout on them and X 1.2 charge is not bad too! But I hope most are under 20. Whew, yeah, if those is mostly boring no name peecees, fine and big fun to do. But if they're special, branded machines even it's real peecees stuff doesn't deserve being stomped under one's foot. In fact, I'm still searching for certain parts for some of my machines and to stock up on. > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is > Power > Wizard From donm at cts.com Wed Apr 14 23:11:38 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: 8" drive on a pc controller In-Reply-To: <199904142215.PAA08475@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Oh? I'm running v1.44 and have no such problems. > > Try creating a disk with a large directory, more than two tracks. > Then try to display the directory. On all of the drives that I have > tried, you will hear that little "click/tick" sound indicating that it > tried to step the heads too fast. You will then get a spurious > media failure message. Of course, it is possible that I missed > something in the instructions, but I beat my head against it > for a long time. Then tried the older version where you can > manually set the step delay and volia! No problems. Bill, I have and have run versions 1.1, 1.32, 1.33, 1.34, 1.35, 1.39, 1.42, and 1.44 and have not experienced any timing problems. Should I presume that this is a format description that you have created, or does it represent an existing format? Tell me what format it is, or send me a copy of the disk description, and I will be happy to run it. - don From donm at cts.com Wed Apr 14 23:21:20 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: polarised floppy connectors In-Reply-To: <199904142252.WAA09840@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Ok, on a polarised 34 pin floppy connector, which end is pin 1? > > I'd rather not wire my adapter cables backwards, even though they would > still be usable if i connected it to a non-polarised adapter... > > -Lawrence LeMay > If you are speaking of the edge connector on the floppy, the polarizing slit falls between contacts 3,4 and 5,6. On the header end, if it has the raised key in the center, pin one is to your right if you view it from the cable end. That is, you can see the key but not the pin holes. - don From donm at cts.com Wed Apr 14 23:25:10 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: polarised floppy connectors In-Reply-To: <199904142307.XAA09873@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > DOH! I just saw the little triange that apparently indicated pin 1. It > was extremely small and hard to see on the black connectors. > > -Lawrence LeMay Yeah, that's there also. - don From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Apr 14 21:39:27 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: References: <199904142256.SAA19769@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199904150638.CAA09577@smtp.interlog.com> On 14 Apr 99 at 21:20, Max Eskin wrote: > On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 jpero@cgocable.net wrote: > >I had to rescue an Everex Step 386/25 with yellow diagnostic > >display and few other "useful" junk. Very interesting features > >designed into that everex thing: 256K cache, can handle up to > >64MB and few things in it. That "junk" came from a douated > >government stuff piled high in LARGE amounts enough to fill at > >least 2 full length trucks at high school who have to toss them what > >left out too after finished their cherrypicking them for their uses. > > OK, I'll post weekly lists of stuff to be thrown away. I will charge > 1.2*(cost of shipping). However, I can assure you that there is nothing > 'interesting' being thrown away. This is all plain vanilla stuff. There > are some interesting things there (a bunch of dual-486 ISA cards) which > are being kept :) > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power > I used to admire your brash freshness and sense of social justice but now I must question which brand of the new Soviet mafia you are enamored of . Correct me if I'm wrong Max but I believe you live in NYC. Are you telling me that everyone in NYC has a computer who desires one ? This glut of computers that you had "fun" destroying, was there really any attempt to distribute them to the various communities and people who might desire a computer? United States is held in contempt by much of the world just because of it's gluttinous consumer society attitudes. Surely CC is an example that shows that that is not the prevailing belief.. Most of us have respect for the labor and industry that went into these creations, usually ill-rewarded and often unrecognized. I would like to think that is the deeper feeling that motivates us, not the rising E-pay prices. I have been fascinated by the destructive angst of North American kids and have equivicated it to powerlessness and a reaction against a materialistic society but have still watched in awe as some project kids gleefully reduce an auto to meaningless junk. If it was my own kids I would kick shit out of them and realise I knew them not. Having come from a prewar generation where we watched TV at friends houses because our families couldn't afford this new technology and an earlier time when indoor toilets were a luxury I sometimes take a reality check and am astounded at what we now take for granted. I can actually record any event audio or visually and manipulate that data. I can print without typing or even print my voice dictation. I can hear a printed text if I desire or have access to a vast library of books or other media. Not to mention encyclopedias without end and news without editorial control. I am reminded that my mothers fresh home made bread was accompanied with an admoniton that we had to stop feasting our avericious young appetites on the delicious warm fresh loaves with fresh butter since it would make us sick if too much was ingested. It took me years to discern that it would also deplete the stock of bread from our sparse larders. Try and explain that to a kid in North America (not Mexico) who thinks that bread is plentiful and pretty boring.unless covered in jam. The bottom line is that we shoud feel ashamed at anything that goes to landfill that is desired and beneficial even out of respect for the labour that has gone into them. My Take on things. Rant OFF ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 15 02:44:46 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Announcement! In-Reply-To: <3714FA80.FFBC2345@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: > And to put in a good word, it has been a tremendously good thing! > Advantatges? The display of older computers is a chance to actually see some > of these ancient beasts we talk about on the list. Last year, one of the > sellers described it as being basically a "social event"; it is a wonderful > way to meet other people interested in the same things we are. And don't > forget the sellers area. The prices on almost everything I have seen is for > the most part fairly reasonable. And if it is not reasonable, look at it as > another part of the computer exhibits! Stuff sold last year? Let's see: PC > Jr., C-16, MITS 680, C-64SX, Atari, HP, TRS, Cray boards, Morrow, ... My > mind is sleepy right now, but perhaps others can fill in more stuff that was > sold. SWTPc 6800, Apple Lisa 2, Basis 108, the digital group (some model), plenty of S-100 cards and systems, tons of other good stuff. > Fortunately, there has been little in the way of DEC stuff to get in the way > (ducking and running :). ) Actually, it would be nice to see some of the PDP > series exhibited (I think there was at VCF 1.0.) Actually, there was plenty of DEC stuff for sale. Lots of PDP-11 boards, one guy was selling multiple Intersil 6100 chip sets, etc. > I think though that the sellers area is where most of the interesting > conversations, etc. take place. And of course there was a rumor that at last > years event, an Apple I sold for about $2K. With the additional interest in > older computers that is being GREATLY helped by ebay (and others), it > wouldn't surprise me to see the attendence go up many times that of the > past. It grew by 100% from the first year, and this year I expect it to grow by at least that much (which means at least 500 people). The chance to get together in person with other collectors is the greatest part. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au Thu Apr 15 04:07:25 1999 From: karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au (Karl Maftoum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: More odd things: HP150 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990414215517.3bb7082a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > I've never had much luck with that one. There are other tests there > somewhere in the menu. Hmmm.. ok, I can't seem to find it, i've tried under system test, is there some special key sequence or something? Cheers Karl From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 15 05:02:54 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festivalt In-Reply-To: <199904150205.WAA13856@crobin.home.org> References: from Mike Ford at "Apr 13, 99 10:48:17 pm" Message-ID: >Out of curiousity, I took a look at ebay to see what Centris/Quadra 610s >were going for. $75 seemed to be the normal to high end for a Quadra 610- >most of those in the stock 8/230 configuration. Prices seemed >commensurately lower for a Centris 610 with high bids on some stripped >(4/0) configurations going as low as $33. > >Okay, so maybe it's the year of the $50 '040. :-) Prices come from an odd mix of factors, and seemingly small things can have big impacts on price especially on places like eBay. A Centris in 4/0 trim is stripped, just motherboard ram, no simms, no hard drive, and that often means the system was a parts donor and may have lurking problems. I never take the prices on eBay at face value. I read the whole ad looking for problems or features, screwup in the listing (ie selling a SCSI drive in general PC hardware instead as a Mac drive), hot button terms like AS-IS, or factory warranty, or goofy posting time (ad closes at 4 am killing last minute bidders), buyer or seller with a bad feedback rating. Cost of ram these days is a big factor, really not as big as it should be given the price of buying ram. I was at GSA surplus sales this morning and the best deal I could get on a DFI (clone) desktop 486DX50 8/212 running norton over dos in dirty condition with no mouse or keyboard was $42.50 (which I declined) and that price was only because I would have bought half a dozen. From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 15 05:28:40 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: <199904150638.CAA09577@smtp.interlog.com> References: <199904142256.SAA19769@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: > I used to admire your brash freshness and sense of social justice but now I >must question which brand of the new Soviet mafia you are enamored of . > Correct me if I'm wrong Max but I believe you live in NYC. Are you >telling me >that everyone in NYC has a computer who desires one ? This glut of computers >that you had "fun" destroying, was there really any attempt to distribute >them >to the various communities and people who might desire a computer? The Goodwill near me just got 600 computers from Pacific Bell, all 486 and older, most in pretty good shape. The result is that a LOT more only slightly wanky 486 boxes are getting tossed in the scrappers bin. Goodwill won't take a 386, or if it gets in the product stream it goes either to the scrapper or the huge AS-IS morning auction of bins of stuff only loosely sorted by category. However painfull you may find it personally, it only takes a TINY bit wrong to make an old computer have negative value except as scrap or parts. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Apr 15 07:31:24 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: Salvage (was Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey!) Message-ID: <19990415123124.14742.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Allison J Parent wrote: > Max, > > How many of the oddball PS2 floppy drives were wasted? I could use one or > two. Sure they arent valueable but when you need one... I also use parts > to the soldered board level. I haven't got any spare PS2 floppies, but I do have a box of Sony floppy drives, OEMed for Tandy that have blue eject buttons and no power connector. I declined to purchase the $40 adapter (Radio Shack 1992 price) that allows them to be used in a regular PC so I don't know the pinout (i.e., where the voltage comes in on the 34-pin connector). I do not know the density, but I suspect them to be 720K. A) Does anyone want any of these? B) Does anyone have the pinout of the 34-pin connector? Thanks, -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Apr 15 07:40:00 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: Has anybody heard from Wirehead? Message-ID: <000201be873d$3eac8100$0100a8c0@fauradon.mn.mediaone.net> He cashed mine about a month ago and I also Have had very little contact with him. Last I got was that he was traveling or otherwise swamped by his job. His last e-mail stated that he'll ship on monday and confirm by e-mail but I have not received such confirmation... I'm getting impatient too... Francois >I haven't heard from him either. He cashed my check on April 5, 1999. Let me >know if you hear from him. > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Apr 15 09:17:16 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: Has anybody heard from Wirehead? Message-ID: <8e9ecd61.24474eec@aol.com> He's gotta be out there somewhere. I had some OSI computer marketing material out on extended loan to him and I got the materials back about 2.5 weeks ago. In a message dated 15/04/99 8:37:57 Eastern Daylight Time, fauradon@pclink.com writes: << He cashed mine about a month ago and I also Have had very little contact with him. Last I got was that he was traveling or otherwise swamped by his job. His last e-mail stated that he'll ship on monday and confirm by e-mail but I have not received such confirmation... I'm getting impatient too... Francois >I haven't heard from him either. He cashed my check on April 5, 1999. Let me >know if you hear from him. > > >> From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Apr 15 09:52:25 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: <199904150638.CAA09577@smtp.interlog.com> from Lawrence Walker at "Apr 15, 1999 02:39:27 am" Message-ID: <199904151452.JAA23468@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > I used to admire your brash freshness and sense of social justice but now I > must question which brand of the new Soviet mafia you are enamored of . > Correct me if I'm wrong Max but I believe you live in NYC. Are you telling me > that everyone in NYC has a computer who desires one ? This glut of computers > that you had "fun" destroying, was there really any attempt to distribute them > to the various communities and people who might desire a computer? > The Dorsai Institute in new york will accept used computers, and I believe they repair them, and make them available to kids. In fact, the kids help repair the computers. www.dorsai.org, click on 'mission' and then 'operation renew'. I'm not in New York, Nor am I affiliated with Dorsai any longer, though I used to run Realmsmud from that site for several years. What the heck, if you donate something, mention that James from Realmsmud told you about them. -Lawrence LeMay AKA James, God of RealmsMUD From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Apr 15 09:55:58 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Announcement! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > Fortunately, there has been little in the way of DEC stuff to get in the way > > (ducking and running :). ) Actually, it would be nice to see some of the PDP > > series exhibited (I think there was at VCF 1.0.) > > Actually, there was plenty of DEC stuff for sale. Lots of PDP-11 boards, > one guy was selling multiple Intersil 6100 chip sets, etc. Yep... I came away with a whole box (>50) of DEC 'Flip-Chip' boards as spares for my PDP-8/i system. (among other things) Where else you gonna find things like that? -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 15 10:02:07 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: step signal on 8" floppy drive In-Reply-To: <199904150305.DAA10161@thorin.cs.umn.edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990415100207.00ff2680@vpwisfirewall> At 10:05 PM 4/14/99 -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: >> > >> > Hmm, perhaps wiring an external Terak floppy drive to a PC is a bit >> > more complicated than i thought. Which of the Terak reference manuals do you have? I've got a list of mine on . I'll dig out the disk drive reference manual, and see if it has schematics. - John From william at ans.net Thu Apr 15 10:25:45 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: [OT] <10 yo DG Aviion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Nobody I can think of buys DG kit, save the US Forest Service, and they > are moving away from their Eclipse installations (to IBM kit, I believe). > And yet.. this stuff is out there. I never see it for sale. DG have > existed for thirty years selling SOMETHING. Data General is still around, and not in bad shape, either. The AViiON line is nothing special, but their mass storage division is selling lots of RAID arrays. William Donzelli william@ans.net From ddameron at earthlink.net Thu Apr 15 07:27:02 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M In-Reply-To: <199904150245.AA12243@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990415072702.23cfe714@earthlink.net> At 10:45 PM 4/14/99 -0400, Allison wrote: >I have one in a clear pen barrel with a point and and a cliplead, very >handy! It's pretty easy to tell, high low and something that's pulsing >even at high rates. Another handy item is a 4040 cmos counter to make >fast things into tones (earphone). That trick came from the NS* disck >controller troubleshooting hints. > Hey! I thought of a 4040 tester a few years ago on my own. I guess it isn't original after all. It is small and useful, It has shown for example, a Z80 quartz clock oscillator which started oscillating on its 3'rd overtone (the Z80 would not run). Another case was a 54LS74 as a toggle FF which failed and the Q output followed the clock input instead of divide by 2. -Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 15 10:53:25 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: 8" drive on a pc controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Shouldn't you gentlemen be considering, instead of which format, at what kind of DRIVE is involved? > On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > Oh? I'm running v1.44 and have no such problems. > > Try creating a disk with a large directory, more than two tracks. > > Then try to display the directory. On all of the drives that I have > > tried, you will hear that little "click/tick" sound indicating that it ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > tried to step the heads too fast. You will then get a spurious ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > media failure message. Of course, it is possible that I missed > > something in the instructions, but I beat my head against it > > for a long time. Then tried the older version where you can > > manually set the step delay and volia! No problems. On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > Bill, I have and have run versions 1.1, 1.32, 1.33, 1.34, 1.35, 1.39, > 1.42, and 1.44 and have not experienced any timing problems. Should I > presume that this is a format description that you have created, or does > it represent an existing format? > Tell me what format it is, or send me a copy of the disk description, and From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Apr 15 10:55:47 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:10 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <80256754.0057A4F4.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > 2-dimensional array. You don't have to prototype anything which is why I > called it a lazy person's C. Hang on. I don't claim to be fluent in C, so I was keeping out of this debate, but this is well weird! As I understand it, you don't have to prototype anything in C - or shouldn't have to. The only C compiler I've ever used doesn't even SUPPORT prototypes! (And that brings it back on topic, since it was installed in 1987 on the RT PC later to become mine...) Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** From gentry at zk3.dec.com Thu Apr 15 11:02:26 1999 From: gentry at zk3.dec.com (Megan Gentry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Can someone identify some boards? Message-ID: <199904151602.AA23110@kamlia.zk3.dec.com> Rather then describe them, I've got scanned images... can someone take a look and tell me what they might be? Even better, if someone can tell me how they are configured, I'd really appreciate it. ftp://ftp.std.com/ftp/pub/mbg/scans/ emulex_unknown_001.jpg plessey_unknown_001.jpg roi_unknown_scsi.jpg I know this is a scsi board, for qbus, but it may be a proto... g5389_q22_bus_exer_rev_b.jpg I know what it is (not the option name, though), I'd like to know how to use it... Thanks in advance... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 15 11:07:52 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: <199904151452.JAA23468@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: > > Correct me if I'm wrong Max but I believe you live in NYC. Are you telling me > > that everyone in NYC has a computer who desires one ? This glut of computers He is in MA, not far from boston. here anything below a 486 has no value save to odd people like us. > I'm not in New York, Nor am I affiliated with Dorsai any longer, Off the top of my head I do not know of a similar org here. There is however the MassTech Core which is involved in getting computeres into schools (internet based, so only 386 or higher need apply). Allison From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Apr 15 11:08:44 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Religious Festivals (was:Re: Fwd: H8 Enthusiasts) Message-ID: <80256754.0058D49A.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> >>The Friday before Easter is called Good Friday. I've never managed to >>work out what "kar" means in your name for it. My favourite, though >>is Ascension, which I understand you call Himmelfahrt... > > Literally, "gone to Heaven" -- my wife's maiden name (unmarried -- not sure Yes, I got that (or "journey to Heaven"), from German O-level [UK exam taken at age 16]. "Weihnacten", for Christmas, doesn't take much decoding to get "holy night(s)". But my dictionary is quite silent as to what the element "kar-" might represent. Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** From spc at armigeron.com Thu Apr 15 11:07:53 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <80256754.0057A4F4.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Apr 15, 99 04:55:47 pm Message-ID: <199904151607.MAA04886@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1134 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990415/4b994d70/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 15 11:15:02 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Announcement! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, James Willing wrote: > On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > > > Fortunately, there has been little in the way of DEC stuff to get in the way > > > (ducking and running :). ) Actually, it would be nice to see some of the PDP > > > series exhibited (I think there was at VCF 1.0.) > > > > Actually, there was plenty of DEC stuff for sale. Lots of PDP-11 boards, > > one guy was selling multiple Intersil 6100 chip sets, etc. > > Yep... I came away with a whole box (>50) of DEC 'Flip-Chip' boards as > spares for my PDP-8/i system. (among other things) Holy shit! Who was selling that? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Apr 15 11:27:15 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: IBM Programmed Symbols Adapter Message-ID: <80256754.005A867A.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Larry Walker wrote: > Muellers 3rd edition mentions 3 to 6 custom cards. You also required the > 3270PC keyboard and the 5272 monitor which allegedly was comparable to an > EGA. Other than that it was a stock XT M-B 5272 was 720 * 350 pixels, like an EGA, but only 8 colours. I seem to remember reading recently that the 3270-PC could use the IBM monochrome display instead (which presumably meant that it emulated a 3278 instead of a 3279) > He outlines the boards which are > > 1. 3270 System Adapter- to connect to a remote 3274 controller > > 2. Display Adapter- extended-character in 8 colors > > 3. Extended Graphics Adapter for local graphics in Hi (2colorsat 720x350 or > 640x200) and med. (4 colors at 360x350 or 320x200) IBM called this an XGA > not the same as the PS2 Extended Graphics ARRAY. Interesting. It seems that IBM terminology is not only different from both American and British dialects of our language, but internally different on the too sides of the Atlantic too. At IBM Bristol, this was _always_ called the APA card. > 4. Programmed Symbols Adapter to provide graphics capabilities available on > 3278/3279 display stations. Needed the XGA in an adjacent slot. Joes' card. Needed the XGA in an adjacent slot? Ouch! I had always assumed that you could have just this and the display adaptor, but I admit to having no evidence to back this up. > 5. Keyboard Adapter - went in the 8th slot and connected the special K-B. > > On delivery the XT slots in the 3270PC were filled with the Sys adapter, the > display adapter,K-B adapter, FDD adapter, and HDD controller. With the graphic > adapter and memory multifunction card not much room left. > Interestingly the 3270PC Control Program allowed up to 7 windows at one time. > Shades of things to come. Apparently there was also an AT version. I'd forgotten that the keyboard adaptor was a separate card. IIRC, it came with a special cable that linked it to the keyboard and to the keyboard port of the XT. The keyboard, as well as having 24 function keys instead of the XT's usual 10, had keys like "jump" to move between windows. These keys were intercepted by the keyboard adapter and _not_ passed on to the keyboard port on the motherboard. I think the card also locked out the motherboard KB port totally when it was being a terminal. Software did exist for talking to the host, looking at the terminal's screen and file transfer under PC program control, but none of it was very easy to use. (I had to program around it.) Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** From danburrows at mindspring.com Thu Apr 15 11:19:12 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Can someone identify some boards? Message-ID: <031c01be875c$769b1ad0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> The ROI is a rebadged Emulex UC07 SCSI disk or Tape, If you don't have docs let me know and I will organize something. The Emulex_unknown_001.jpg is a CS08 8 line mux - DHV11 emulation. I will need some more # from the plessey to figure it out. Dan ->Rather then describe them, I've got scanned images... can someone >take a look and tell me what they might be? Even better, if someone >can tell me how they are configured, I'd really appreciate it. > > ftp://ftp.std.com/ftp/pub/mbg/scans/ > emulex_unknown_001.jpg > plessey_unknown_001.jpg > roi_unknown_scsi.jpg > I know this is a scsi board, for qbus, but > it may be a proto... > g5389_q22_bus_exer_rev_b.jpg > I know what it is (not the option name, though), > I'd like to know how to use it... > > Thanks in advance... > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 15 11:36:38 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Announcement! References: Message-ID: <37161596.F22C591@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > Fortunately, there has been little in the way of DEC stuff to get in the way > > (ducking and running :). ) Actually, it would be nice to see some of the PDP > > series exhibited (I think there was at VCF 1.0.) > > Actually, there was plenty of DEC stuff for sale. Lots of PDP-11 boards, > one guy was selling multiple Intersil 6100 chip sets, etc. What I was referring to were the computers on display rather than what was being sold. Since I am not into DEC (except I do want to get the PDP-8L, 11/03, and micro 11 up and running), I really didn't pay much attention to the boards being sold. Maybe I should have :). From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 15 11:43:22 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Announcement! In-Reply-To: <37161596.F22C591@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: > > Actually, there was plenty of DEC stuff for sale. Lots of PDP-11 boards, > > one guy was selling multiple Intersil 6100 chip sets, etc. > > What I was referring to were the computers on display rather than what was > being sold. Since I am not into DEC (except I do want to get the PDP-8L, > 11/03, and micro 11 up and running), I really didn't pay much attention to > the boards being sold. Maybe I should have :). Well, in that case Chuck McManis had his PDP-8 (forgot which one specifically, I think it was an 'm') up and running blinking its lights. And Jacob Ritorto brought in an '11 the second day and got it up and running. Also, Scott Statton (one of the sellers, he was next to Kai) had a MicroVax or something up and running at his table with a Ricochet modem attached so he was live on the net. Pretty damn cool, and very damn handy when I needed to download a file off the web in a pinch. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Apr 15 11:51:29 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Salvage (was Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey!) In-Reply-To: <19990415123124.14742.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <199904151646.MAA29638@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 05:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Ethan Dicks To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Salvage (was Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey!) > I haven't got any spare PS2 floppies, but I do have a box of Sony floppy > drives, OEMed for Tandy that have blue eject buttons and no power > connector. I declined to purchase the $40 adapter (Radio Shack 1992 price) > that allows them to be used in a regular PC so I don't know the pinout > (i.e., where the voltage comes in on the 34-pin connector). > > I do not know the density, but I suspect them to be 720K. Look into the floppy opening on right side. Is there a pin sensor there for 1.44MB? Tandy drives that works off one 34pin connection is compatiable with standard 34pin because several pins that was for ground pins are pressed into service for power. I have done 2 720K conversion to peecee form and put power connector that was missing in (but this 2 has them already but required 2 trace cuttings to break the power traces to the 34pin.) out of a 1000HX (tabletop style w/o display). Don't let older Sony and Toshiba, some Teac mechanicals floppy drives go to waste, they're built like tank! What I have is used for bench work. Wizard > -ethan > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Thu Apr 15 11:49:56 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "Apr 15, 99 12:07:52 pm" Message-ID: <199904151649.MAA00249@hiway1.exit109.com> > > > Correct me if I'm wrong Max but I believe you live in NYC. Are you telling me > > > that everyone in NYC has a computer who desires one ? This glut of computers > > He is in MA, not far from boston. here anything below a 486 has no > value save to odd people like us. > > > I'm not in New York, Nor am I affiliated with Dorsai any longer, > > Off the top of my head I do not know of a similar org here. There is > however the MassTech Core which is involved in getting computeres into > schools (internet based, so only 386 or higher need apply). For whatever reason, most non-profits seem to draw the line at a 486. Even our local one, Share the Technology, (http://www.libertynet.org/~share) seems to mkae that distinction... as do many of the orgs who have posted to their "Computers Wanted" list. (Kind of makes me wonder what they did with the stack of 386SX-33 boards I donated to them.) The biggest irony, I felt, was when I was a consultant at AT&T Somerset. Every where you looked there were big posters for "AT&T Cares" (employee volunteerism). One of the items was "Donate computers to a local school (486 and above)". I guess that's why they couldn't get rid of the *heaps* of 386-class systems in the closets and storerooms. Personally, I tend to draw the line at the 386. In a Windows and GUI world, I really don't want the aggravation to trying to teach someone text mode apps or of having to listen when they can't find *any* software. This is the same reason I will never give another person an Apple II unless they already know about and want one. OTOH, most 386 class sytems can share enough hardware and software with later brethren that the issue is more one of speed. Of course, I'm also a person who's been known to travel with a 386SX-16 notebook (recently replaced with a 386SLC-25 one). <<>> From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 15 11:51:52 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Ebay: Mark-8 results References: Message-ID: <37161928.3BA1B55C@rain.org> The July 1974 Radio-Electronics magazine sold for $190 (confirmed now), and the construction article that you had to send away for closed at $190.50. Now maybe some real Mark-8s will start to show up! Don Lancasters TV Typewriter construction article you had to send away for closed at $50.00. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Apr 15 11:13:22 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Several things Message-ID: <80256754.00599A02.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> Fair enough. Just another example of different places to draw boundaries, with >> grey areas in between. I would call the ROM version microcoded, and the hard >> wired version not, because the ROM version contains CODE. (I would agree that > > I think a lot of people would. I just have problems distinguishing them > in the first place. > > This might be because I've worked with FPGAs where the logic block (5 > inputs 1 out) is a 32 bit RAM. I give my schematic to the FPGA compiler > and it partitions the logic into suitable bits and works out what to > stick in the RAMs to make the gates I need. Since I always checked (and > sometimes corrected) what the compiler had done, I got used to thinking > of combinatorial logic and programmed memories as being roughly the same > thing. Makes sense. Another grey area. I must admit that I too would call that microcode. This is reminiscent of the famous analogu/digital grey area... >> To show how grey this is, if you use a ROM to implement the combinatorial logic >> for a flipflop-per-state machine, would you call the code in this ROM microcode? > > Hmmm... Now you mention it, I guess I have to call that microcode. I'm > therefore inconsistent... I wouldn't worry about it. Goedel's theorem says that if you weren't, you'd have to be incomplete :-) Philip. From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 15 11:57:15 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Ebay: PDP-8 Core Memory References: Message-ID: <37161A6B.C8DA57A0@rain.org> There are some DEC modules on ebay now including a PDP-8i Core memory stack that is supposed to be working. The URL is: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=91272199 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 15 14:00:03 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: City Names In-Reply-To: <80256753.005C49C7.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <199904151701.TAA06803@horus.mch.sni.de> > > Just back from Warschau (Poland) - Thanks. And BTW: since Karfreitag > Where? Oh, you mean Warszawa. Warsaw. ;-) (You're just lucky that's one of the few polish words without lots of accents etc.) Hmm do you want to start another War ? ;) If you live in a city like Munich you learn about the ways of naming a city - and of coure how senseless it is to belive in calling a thin worldwide with one single name. > > with an empty car an came back with some kind of a wight problem, > > including an H8 and an Compupro 286 (an S100 286 wit 4 Z80), just > > to find aout that I had no Swiss power adaptor at hand (thy use a > > different connector)... > Sounds fun! For shure is was .. er .. is! H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 15 14:00:03 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Religious Festivals (was:Re: Fwd: H8 Enthusiasts) In-Reply-To: <80256754.0058D49A.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <199904151701.TAA06806@horus.mch.sni.de> > >>The Friday before Easter is called Good Friday. I've never managed to > >>work out what "kar" means in your name for it. My favourite, though > >>is Ascension, which I understand you call Himmelfahrt... > > Literally, "gone to Heaven" -- my wife's maiden name (unmarried -- not sure > Yes, I got that (or "journey to Heaven"), from German O-level [UK exam taken at > age 16]. "Weihnacten", for Christmas, doesn't take much decoding to get "holy > night(s)". But my dictionary is quite silent as to what the element "kar-" > might represent. "Kar" is derivated from the Oldhighgerman word of chara/kara with an meaning of grief/mourning - so the Karwoche is the week of mourning for Christ / the mourning period. While this word is no longer in use in German (and no derivate, AFAIK), it is still present in English as 'care' (Didn't I already mention that English preserved a lot mor ol German words than German itself ? So learning English is kind of learning old German.) I hope this wil end your life long search for the meaning of Kar. Gruss H. P.S.: Now solve the riddle of Ostern/Eastern. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 15 12:03:57 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: ebay: 3" Diskettes References: Message-ID: <37161BFD.35ABE2BF@rain.org> Someone a while ago on this list was looking for 3" diskettes. There is a box being sold on ebay now. The URL is: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=90769403 I would normally just post this stuff to the ccauction list, but the past two items are something that people on this list seem to be actively looking for. From danburrows at mindspring.com Thu Apr 15 12:01:23 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He Message-ID: <032d01be8762$50a862f0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> > >Off the top of my head I do not know of a similar org here. There is >however the MassTech Core which is involved in getting computeres into >schools (internet based, so only 386 or higher need apply). > When I get PC's (286,386 and 486) with equipment I need I donate them to the local Hospice group. Every year they run a huge flea market here and sell them for anywhere from $100 to $400. How they get the prices they get I have never been able to figure out other than they are nonprofit and a good cause. A few years ago they were having to buy standard NEMA power cords for systems that had been donated. When I found out I went out to my truck and found a few loose ones. A couple months later I got several hundred with a large lot of DEC equipment and they were very happy to get those as well. The last couple years they have been tight on storage space so now they call me when they are ready for some. This year they called as I was unloading a bunch of PC's and trying to figure out what to do with them. Boy was I happy they called. Dan From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Apr 15 12:28:39 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: <199904151649.MAA00249@hiway1.exit109.com> References: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "Apr 15, 99 12:07:52 pm" Message-ID: <199904151723.NAA01770@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:49:56 -0400 (EDT) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: John Ruschmeyer To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He Snip! > The biggest irony, I felt, was when I was a consultant at AT&T Somerset. > Every where you looked there were big posters for "AT&T Cares" (employee > volunteerism). One of the items was "Donate computers to a local school > (486 and above)". I guess that's why they couldn't get rid of the *heaps* > of 386-class systems in the closets and storerooms. Remember: 486 33 is double of what 386dx 33 does in performance. Let say about 8,000 whetstones as mesured by Checkit 3.0 on cached 386 33. Plus very few 386 boxens are easily expandable with available parts. 486 stuff is very easily expandable due to plenty supply of 72pin simms and cdroms, many support LBA required for greater than 528MB HDs. > Personally, I tend to draw the line at the 386. In a Windows and GUI > world, I really don't want the aggravation to trying to teach someone text > mode apps or of having to listen when they can't find *any* software. This > is the same reason I will never give another person an Apple II unless > they already know about and want one. S/W can be found but often I find some people buy "current" s/w and find out their computer is not capable of it. Happened to my friend w/ a 486dx 33, all it do good is surfing and email, word processing all kinds of business s/w. I told him to move up to pentium level in fall. That kids game in that regard is Logo, failed to run properly on it, that is because of puny 486 33 uncached. > Of course, I'm also a person who's been known to travel with a 386SX-16 > notebook (recently replaced with a 386SLC-25 one). > > <<>> I still have old notebooks. LTE 386s/20 now retired from use due to number of failures: edgelit lamp giving out, weak 386 even o/c to 25 and a cpu swap, keyboard is flaky. Aero 4/25 is pressed into use but bit weak yuk compared to 701C. Latest addition is TP 701C that bought in fresh of air into performance-poor area. :-) Oh, yesterday I saw a 50Z (minor problems) in repair at my parttime work. IBM stuff says lot about reliablity and long time w/o anguring into ground. I have no problems getting new parts for my 701C, in fact got them 1 day after order. Wizard From donm at cts.com Thu Apr 15 13:41:16 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: 8" drive on a pc controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Shouldn't you gentlemen be considering, instead of which format, at what > kind of DRIVE is involved? Excellent point, as I have been using a Mitsubishi that I set at 6ms. - don > > On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > > Oh? I'm running v1.44 and have no such problems. > > > Try creating a disk with a large directory, more than two tracks. > > > Then try to display the directory. On all of the drives that I have > > > tried, you will hear that little "click/tick" sound indicating that it > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > tried to step the heads too fast. You will then get a spurious > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > media failure message. Of course, it is possible that I missed > > > something in the instructions, but I beat my head against it > > > for a long time. Then tried the older version where you can > > > manually set the step delay and volia! No problems. > On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > > Bill, I have and have run versions 1.1, 1.32, 1.33, 1.34, 1.35, 1.39, > > 1.42, and 1.44 and have not experienced any timing problems. Should I > > presume that this is a format description that you have created, or does > > it represent an existing format? > > Tell me what format it is, or send me a copy of the disk description, and > > From mbg at world.std.com Thu Apr 15 13:50:43 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Can someone identify some boards? Message-ID: <199904151850.AA20327@world.std.com> >The ROI is a rebadged Emulex UC07 SCSI disk or Tape, If you don't have >docs let me know and I will organize something. The >Emulex_unknown_001.jpg is a CS08 8 line mux - DHV11 emulation. I will >need some more # from the plessey to figure it out. Thanks VERY much... this helps. Yes, I would like more info on the ROI board... Specifically I'd like to know about the switch pack and its settings... (I love this resource...:-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mikeparadiso at worldnet.att.net Thu Apr 15 13:55:46 1999 From: mikeparadiso at worldnet.att.net (MICHAEL PARADISO) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Remove My Email Address From the Classiccmp List Message-ID: <000e01be8771$92fc1200$b28d480c@437174027worldnet.att.net> Please remove my email address from the classiccmp list. This email address is now being used by my business. I will be getting a new address just for the classiccmp list. Thanks, Mike mikeparadiso@worldnet.att.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990415/3e5b804a/attachment.html From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Thu Apr 15 14:14:02 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: <199904151723.NAA01770@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgocable.net" at "Apr 15, 99 01:28:39 pm" Message-ID: <199904151914.PAA00270@hiway1.exit109.com> > > The biggest irony, I felt, was when I was a consultant at AT&T Somerset. > > Every where you looked there were big posters for "AT&T Cares" (employee > > volunteerism). One of the items was "Donate computers to a local school > > (486 and above)". I guess that's why they couldn't get rid of the *heaps* > > of 386-class systems in the closets and storerooms. > > Remember: 486 33 is double of what 386dx 33 does in > performance. Let say about 8,000 whetstones as mesured by > Checkit 3.0 on cached 386 33. Plus very few 386 boxens are > easily expandable with available parts. 486 stuff is very easily > expandable due to plenty supply of 72pin simms and cdroms, > many support LBA required for greater than 528MB HDs. I'll agree on the performance issue, particularly since all but the cheapest 486s had external cache, while only the most expensive 386s had it. I tend to disagree on the expandability, though. Pretty much every 386 I've seen had IDe on the motherboard or used an ISA controller (though finding non-VLB ISA cards is a bit fun these days). For memory, most used the ubiquitous 30-pin SIMM (1MB SIMMS being giveaways or <$2/meg, 4mb simms being a bit more expensive). For CD-ROMS, there is SCSI, IDE (preferably off the sound card), or surplus proprietary boards (Mitsumi, etc.). Since the 386 won't run software which is "fast" enough to require a multiple-speed drive, it's a good place for an otherwise "useless" single-speed one. As for the LBA, there is always DiskManager, which tends to be needed on a lot of earlier 486s too. > > Personally, I tend to draw the line at the 386. In a Windows and GUI > > world, I really don't want the aggravation to trying to teach someone text > > mode apps or of having to listen when they can't find *any* software. This > > is the same reason I will never give another person an Apple II unless > > they already know about and want one. > > S/W can be found but often I find some people buy "current" s/w > and find out their computer is not capable of it. Happened to my > friend w/ a 486dx 33, all it do good is surfing and email, word > processing all kinds of business s/w. I told him to move up to > pentium level in fall. That kids game in that regard is Logo, failed > to run properly on it, that is because of puny 486 33 uncached. Yup, I can believe it... > > Of course, I'm also a person who's been known to travel with a 386SX-16 > > notebook (recently replaced with a 386SLC-25 one). > > I still have old notebooks. LTE 386s/20 now retired from use due to > number of failures: edgelit lamp giving out, weak 386 even o/c to > 25 and a cpu swap, keyboard is flaky. Aero 4/25 is pressed into > use but bit weak yuk compared to 701C. Latest addition is TP > 701C that bought in fresh of air into performance-poor area. :-) Weren't the Aero's the ones with the PCMCIA floppy or were they the pen-based ones? (I always get the Aero and the Contura mixed up.) Around here, it's a pair of state-of-the-art circa 1992 notebooks: An NCR 3170, 8/120 (my wife's) and an Apple Macintosh Powerbook 170, 8/40 (mine). Would I like something faster, sure, but I really can't justify it for what I use them for- basic connectivity and recreation while on the road (though I have considered putting in a bigger drive in the NCR and setting up a NetBSD partition). <<>> From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 15 16:27:52 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <199904140419.AAA14731@armigeron.com> References: <199904092337.QAA27658@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 9, 99 04:37:45 pm Message-ID: <199904151928.VAA14473@horus.mch.sni.de> > > ::>I'm still kinda stuck on Pascal, myself. But I loves Perl. > > ::Perl is essentially C for lazy people. I like it too :) However, I > > ::consider it a very impure language and for this reason would prefer not to > > ::use it for anything besides shell/CGI scripts. > > It does encourage very sloppy programming habits, true :-) > It's a tradeoff---most programmers I know hate Ada for being very picky > about the code (it takes quite a bit of effort to please the compiler) and I > know I dislike Python (I think that's the one) for enforcing a particular > style of coding (indentation is significant---ick). So I'm maybe not a real-programmer(tm), since I _love_ the ways ADA offer to create efficient code _and_ helps me to avoide mistakes. Shure, it is a bit more to write down, but in fact, if one has understood what he wants to programm he can decribe it in every detail without problems - and otherwise, if he is in trouble to do this, I'll doubt that he knows exactly what to do - sloopy languages (like C) just support the implementations of raw, unfinished (and in most cases unusable) ideas. I found that most 'real' C-programmers (the ones that realy love and live their language) spending most of their time in searching a solution to counter a poor implementation they did just by themself. It's realy a pitty that ADA didn't get along as it should have. Gruss H. (still in love with Assm :) -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 15 14:58:22 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: <199904151649.MAA00249@hiway1.exit109.com> References: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "Apr 15, 99 12:07:52 pm" Message-ID: >Personally, I tend to draw the line at the 386. In a Windows and GUI world, >I really don't want the aggravation to trying to teach someone text mode >apps or of having to listen when they can't find *any* software. This is >the same reason I will never give another person an Apple II unless they >already know about and want one. > >OTOH, most 386 class sytems can share enough hardware and software with >later brethren that the issue is more one of speed. > >Of course, I'm also a person who's been known to travel with a 386SX-16 >notebook (recently replaced with a 386SLC-25 one). The key to old systems is that the combustable mixture for them to run, knowledgable help, manuals, software, hardware, etc., can't be missing any of the critical parts. With newer systems its reasonable to expect a person to have some support outside of yourself, radio shack has a cable, neighbor kid can reinstall Windows, etc. With an older system the first link that breaks and you are generally sunk. Radio Shack may have the blinkity cable, but the saleguy will not know it and tell them its too old just replace it. A couple local guys do nothing but cheap 386 systems, and they succeed because they offer support, and a very complete install of software. To do that you need to spend a fair amount of time getting a procedure and software all ready to quickly put on to new systems. If these two guys didn't do it, it would be straight to the dumpster. It only "works" though when you have a pretty good tech, like they are, willing to work very very cheap. From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Apr 15 15:14:44 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: <199904151914.PAA00270@hiway1.exit109.com> References: <199904151723.NAA01770@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgocable.net" at "Apr 15, 99 01:28:39 pm" Message-ID: <199904152009.QAA00984@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:14:02 -0400 (EDT) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: John Ruschmeyer To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He SNip! > I'll agree on the performance issue, particularly since all but the > cheapest 486s had external cache, while only the most expensive 386s > had it. > > I tend to disagree on the expandability, though. Pretty much every Reasons for ease of expansion, at the time when XT and 286 were king till up to '93, most of them don't have onboard ports, mostly on cards. 386 and 486 was "THE high end" between '87 to '93 Those 386/486 boxens were very few often found in branded models with onboard ports. Clones didn't. Memories was expensive still and clones always comes with cards, very few used onboard ports. Remember, common people can't afford more than 2.5 grand for most machines that are where clones abrounds. Till very late around '95 that we saw turn from many cards for i/o to onboard i/o for motherboards. Memories still expensive, I do recall I had paid 700CDN for set of 2 8MB EDO in early '96 along with P5 100, asus board (TP4XEG model) and 1gig hd. 30pin simms of any kind is very hard to come by now compared to ease of obtaining used 72pin of all types. Now SDRAM is for short time, cheapest possible to go. :) LBA is better avoided if possible in "idiotic" enviroments like schools because that said computer with lost LBA driver sits for days even weeks till someone is found to reinstall it because school must send in requests for repairs approvals and most don't have good nerdy teacher and few young bright hackers is very rare and usually not allowed into school stuff. Older 386 and slower 486 also don't need the trouble large hd brings with. Keeping smaller hd on them helps to deal with cpu limitations because older s/w is also smaller. Putting big one in invites "newer" s/w that cpu can't keep up and get a unhappy users and troubles. I DO rememeber that case years ago...in early 90's, remember, XT is plentiful and parts can be had off the streets by bunches. Case in point: I was taking a machine shop class which has small CTC run by a IBM XT that needed full 640K. Guess what? nearly 4 months to get that job done. Soon after I found a tip that needs TTL IC, 18 256K x 1 and a piece of wire can do the job in few hours. Which I did myself on one of XT board for fun. :-( Snip! > Weren't the Aero's the ones with the PCMCIA floppy or were they the > pen-based ones? (I always get the Aero and the Contura mixed up.) Aero is PCMCIA floppy type 4lbs cut down, excessive no frills notebook. I don't like the trackball with buttons location, cramped expansions, weak 486 and odd video chipset. But for "floppy" making and light reading, run win 3.xx, using it as go between instead of verbal or when paper n pen is not needed with hearing people. I'm deaf. > Would I like something faster, sure, but I really can't justify it for > what I use them for- basic connectivity and recreation while on the road > (though I have considered putting in a bigger drive in the NCR and setting > up a NetBSD partition). If you're looking for larger HD, sounds like you're ready for a powerful notebook. Older machines with "weaker" CPU only needs small HD usually. Don't dodge that one! Please go ahead and flich a 486DX2 or better class, TFT panel notebook with big hd. I excused myself like this idiotic thing for years till this LTE 386s/20, 10MB ram w/ 300MB fitted in. First thing next I tried was linux and xwin on it. Total distraster. And soon after Aero was bought in and rest is history. Suggestion: Go TP! Parts sources from ibm servicer places is still can be had for old TP's. That is how I did yesterday last nite on 701C. Ditto to 700C which was traded away. Xwin is CPU-hungry + Ram eater, this does helps very much when HD is good in high speed transfers with largest possible internal hd buffer. I found that out on 486dx2 then to p5-100 (much better!) then K6-2 400 (perfect). > > <<>> > Wizard From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Apr 15 15:22:07 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: References: <199904151649.MAA00249@hiway1.exit109.com> Message-ID: <199904152017.QAA08130@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:58:22 -0700 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Mike Ford To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He > The key to old systems is that the combustable mixture for them to run, > knowledgable help, manuals, software, hardware, etc., can't be missing any > of the critical parts. With newer systems its reasonable to expect a > person to have some support outside of yourself, radio shack has a cable, > neighbor kid can reinstall Windows, etc. With an older system the first > link that breaks and you are generally sunk. Radio Shack may have the > blinkity cable, but the saleguy will not know it and tell them its too old > just replace it. > > A couple local guys do nothing but cheap 386 systems, and they succeed > because they offer support, and a very complete install of software. To do > that you need to spend a fair amount of time getting a procedure and > software all ready to quickly put on to new systems. If these two guys > didn't do it, it would be straight to the dumpster. It only "works" though > when you have a pretty good tech, like they are, willing to work very very > cheap. > > Bang on! This mix is needed to keep old boxens running. But there no difference since if there is knowledgeable people and willing to do it for pay or for free. I know of few local stores who refuses to touch older than 486dx4 100 because they think this will cramp their profits. That's big mistake! :-) People of all kinds comes in w/ their machines, XT, 286, 386 and few oddball that we can fix at work helps our bottomline by good reputation and in turn helps us to sell new machines too. I had to push my friend who teaches college students to instill them with these oldies stuff and certain oddball machines. Wizard From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 15 15:26:36 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. In-Reply-To: <199904152009.QAA00984@mail.cgocable.net> References: <199904151914.PAA00270@hiway1.exit109.com> <199904151723.NAA01770@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgocable.net" at Message-ID: >30pin simms of any kind is very hard to come by now compared to I have a boxfull, mostly 9 bit 1 MB 30 pin simms, I don't advertise it except to friends because small transactions are a PITA, but I sell them for $3/4, $5/8 plus actual shipping. I also have some 256k simms, some 8 bit, some 4 MB, and a few weird modules like 32 pin or AST 64 pin. Please make any direct questions via email to me and not the full list. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 15 15:26:50 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: <199904152017.QAA08130@mail.cgocable.net> References: <199904151649.MAA00249@hiway1.exit109.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990415152650.0101b660@vpwisfirewall> At 04:22 PM 4/15/99 -0400, jpero@cgocable.net wrote: >> >Bang on! This mix is needed to keep old boxens running. >But there no difference since if there is knowledgeable people and >willing to do it for pay or for free. Perhaps I haven't looked in the right nooks, but finding online info about these pre-Internet 486 or earlier systems is tough. Sure, many companies have their contemporary items online, but there's little movitation for them to put the old stuff online: old drivers, old manuals, old specs. - John From arfonrg at texas.net Thu Apr 15 15:49:41 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. In-Reply-To: References: <199904152009.QAA00984@mail.cgocable.net> <199904151914.PAA00270@hiway1.exit109.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990415154941.0098e3a0@207.207.0.212> Have you got any 1Mb DIPPs?? >>30pin simms of any kind is very hard to come by now compared to > >I have a boxfull, mostly 9 bit 1 MB 30 pin simms, I don't advertise it >except to friends because small transactions are a PITA, but I sell them >for $3/4, $5/8 plus actual shipping. I also have some 256k simms, some 8 >bit, some 4 MB, and a few weird modules like 32 pin or AST 64 pin. Please >make any direct questions via email to me and not the full list. > > > > ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 15 12:41:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M In-Reply-To: <199904150245.AA12243@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 14, 99 10:45:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1655 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990415/6c21ec72/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 15 12:47:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: step signal on 8" floppy drive In-Reply-To: <199904150305.DAA10161@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Apr 14, 99 10:05:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1995 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990415/02021b7e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 15 15:07:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Several things In-Reply-To: <80256754.00599A02.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Apr 15, 99 05:13:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 562 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990415/300f4fb2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 15 15:10:52 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Salvage (was Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey!) In-Reply-To: <199904151646.MAA29638@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgocable.net" at Apr 15, 99 12:51:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 556 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990415/f5b3b42d/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 15 15:55:29 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990415152650.0101b660@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: Please STOP calling 386 and 486 machines "OLD"!! There's stuff in my freezer older than that. If you want to see "old", we can show you "OLD". I have been upgrading and maintaining the computers for the local humane society. In the last few years, I have brought them from XTs up to 486 and Pentium Windoze machines, using nothing but the junk that has been donated. My current policy is that any pre-VGA monitors go straight into the rummage sale (usually 1st and 3rd Saturdays); 486 and Pentium machines get put into use; 286 and non-exceptional 386 get cannibalized to help the 486 and Pentium machines. By the end of the year, I'm hoping to have everytyhing up to Pentium, and a few 200MHz level machines for the DTP, etc. I have occasionally had reports of older machines that "would not work" with current software. In most cases, other than actual hardware malfunctions, those problems could be solved by swapping the case with somebody else's "not working" machine, and putting Pentium stickers on the box (which makes everything run MUCH faster). A 386 can run Windoze95 IFF it has a Pentium sticker. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Apr 15 16:03:58 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Apr 15, 1999 01:26:36 pm" Message-ID: <199904152103.VAA24709@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > >30pin simms of any kind is very hard to come by now compared to > > I have a boxfull, mostly 9 bit 1 MB 30 pin simms, I don't advertise it > except to friends because small transactions are a PITA, but I sell them > for $3/4, $5/8 plus actual shipping. I also have some 256k simms, some 8 > bit, some 4 MB, and a few weird modules like 32 pin or AST 64 pin. Please > make any direct questions via email to me and not the full list. > > Anyone crazy enough to need 256K simms, can ask me. I have 2 bags full. The first bag had over 200 in it, i didnt count the second bag. -Lawrence LeMay From max82 at surfree.com Thu Apr 15 15:07:54 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: <199904150638.CAA09577@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > I used to admire your brash freshness and sense of social justice but now I >must question which brand of the new Soviet mafia you are enamored of . I am a sort of intermediary between the various factions... > Correct me if I'm wrong Max but I believe you live in NYC. Are you telling me >that everyone in NYC has a computer who desires one ? This glut of computers >that you had "fun" destroying, was there really any attempt to distribute them >to the various communities and people who might desire a computer? Actually, I live in Boston, but your point remains the same. The problem is simply that these computers aren't new enough. They can be used for anything that a new one can be used for, but they won't read the newest MS Word files. Microsoft made sure of that. Believe it or not, people can be very picky about such things. Also, there is the issue that the computer will never be used, or will get thrown away the next day, whatever. The point is that there is no justification for the trouble it takes to distribute computers to individuals. If these individuals want to get a computer, fine. I have found dozens of computers in garbage cans, I'm sure they can do no worse. > United States is held in contempt by much of the world just because of it's >gluttinous consumer society attitudes. Surely CC is an example that shows >that that is not the prevailing belief.. Most of us have respect for the labor >and industry that went into these creations, usually ill-rewarded and often >unrecognized. I would like to think that is the deeper feeling that motivates >us, not the rising E-pay prices. The USA is held in contempt for many reasons, and the consumer society attitude is part of a larger problem. Personally, I do not like to damage anything, but once in a while, I like to have some fun. If I didn't do that, I wouldn't be motivated to do anything useful in between. These computers aren't classic, and aren't examples of labor/industry. They weren't made by human hands, they mostly weren't even designed by human hands. The only place where human hands stood to get mangled was by getting paper cuts against the dollar bills and credit cards. > I have been fascinated by the destructive angst of North American kids and >have equivicated it to powerlessness and a reaction against a materialistic >society but have still watched in awe as some project kids gleefully reduce >an auto to meaningless junk. If it was my own kids I would kick shit out of >them and realise I knew them not. My rising familiarity with technology past and present leads me to question whether it wasn't meaningless junk before...seriously, if these kids didn't own the car, they have a bigger problem, and should probably get a sound beating. If it was their car, I can quite understand their desire to release their exasperation. Isn't it better to smash a car than a person? I guess you have lived a good life, and so have I, but even I sometimes feel like nothing matters anymore, I'm so frustrated. And for people living in the projects, it must be so much more serious. >when indoor toilets were a luxury I sometimes take a reality check and am How old are you, anyway? >astounded at what we now take for granted. I can actually record any event >audio or visually and manipulate that data. I can print without typing or even >print my voice dictation. I can hear a printed text if I desire or have access >to a vast library of books or other media. Not to mention encyclopedias >without end and news without editorial control. So what? I haven't found any useful purpose for recording events visually and manipulating the data. The government sure has, and I think that's an important fact. It's the government and the corporations that use this technology, not us. But, we make use of such notions as generosity and altruism, which a country or a corporation is incapable of. > I am reminded that my mothers fresh home made bread was accompanied with an >admoniton that we had to stop feasting our avericious young appetites on the >delicious warm fresh loaves with fresh butter since it would make us sick if >too much was ingested. It took me years to discern that it would also deplete >the stock of bread from our sparse larders. Try and explain that to a kid in >North America (not Mexico) who thinks that bread is plentiful and pretty >boring.unless covered in jam. For one thing, home-baked bread is much less boring than factory-made bread. I once went for a walk next to a lake, which was just near a Wonder Bread factory. That place smells like a crematorium! All of our advanced farming techniques have done nothing besides fatten somebody's wallet and increase the incidence of cancer. Over a billion are still starving and nobody who can do something wants to do anything about it. Back in the USSR, I remember reading a book about --guess what-- saving bread. A boy gets bored with his piece of bread and begins to play with it. He rolls it up into a ball and throws it away. The ball comes alive and starts to reproach him. It leads him to the farm where a farmer plants seeds, where a driver operates a combine harvester, etc. all the way up to the bakery. At the end, the boy says he will never play with bread again. Just thought I'd mention that one. There is no shortage of bread in this world. There is an excess of assholes. > The bottom line is that we shoud feel ashamed at anything that goes to >landfill that is desired and beneficial even out of respect for the labour >that has gone into them. My Take on things. I am very much of a packrat, that's why I'm on this list. I just take breaks sometimes. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From bluoval at mindspring.com Thu Apr 15 16:22:04 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Salvage (was Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey!) References: <19990415123124.14742.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3716587C.260E6DD@mindspring.com> I have 3 original PS/2 computers I picked up somewhere. One has 2 drives and the other 2 have one each, 1.44 mb. I believe they also have network cards in there too. They all work. Anyone interested? Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Allison J Parent wrote: > > Max, > > > > How many of the oddball PS2 floppy drives were wasted? I could use one or > > two. Sure they arent valueable but when you need one... I also use parts > > to the soldered board level. > > I haven't got any spare PS2 floppies, but I do have a box of Sony floppy > drives, OEMed for Tandy that have blue eject buttons and no power connector. > I declined to purchase the $40 adapter (Radio Shack 1992 price) that allows > them to be used in a regular PC so I don't know the pinout (i.e., where the > voltage comes in on the 34-pin connector). > > I do not know the density, but I suspect them to be 720K. > > A) Does anyone want any of these? > > B) Does anyone have the pinout of the 34-pin connector? > > Thanks, > > -ethan > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 15 16:53:52 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 15, 99 04:07:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 579 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990415/5b42b60c/attachment.ksh From max82 at surfree.com Thu Apr 15 16:57:56 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <80256754.0057A4F4.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999 Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: >Hang on. I don't claim to be fluent in C, so I was keeping out of this debate, >but this is well weird! As I understand it, you don't have to prototype >anything in C - or shouldn't have to. The only C compiler I've ever used >doesn't even SUPPORT prototypes! I'm just not good with jargon. I meant declaring. In perl, everything is dynamically allocated. You don't do "int foo; foo=5;", you just do "$foo=5;". --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From max82 at surfree.com Thu Apr 15 17:09:22 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >box (which makes everything run MUCH faster). A 386 can run Windoze95 IFF >it has a Pentium sticker. The Emperor's New Clothes in the information age :) How long does it take to install win95 on a 386? Longer than on a pentium, I'll bet, especially since you may have to sit there and swap floppies. I have no problem running Windows 3.1, I like it a lot more in some ways. It's a very nice program, now that I've seen the alternative :) --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From max82 at surfree.com Thu Apr 15 17:12:02 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >You know, I like to have fun as well. But my fun consists of taking a >pile of parts 'beyond economic repair' and getting them working again. Or >taking a few bits of scrap metal and learning to machine them. Or >designing Yet Another Useless Interface. In other words creating something. > >I really don't understand this love of breaking things. I don't have the expertise that you do, nor the time to do learn. I'm fed up with the piles of crud that surround me, which I store because I might need it someday, but actually never end up using. There's also the issue that your hormones are probably far out the window, while mine are still inside me :) I would never have initiated the holocaust if someone else hadn't started it, by the way. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From at258 at osfn.org Thu Apr 15 18:40:12 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If you can keep from breaking the keyboard, try running Win3.1 with the Calmira updates. If you squint, and suspend disbelief, it could almost be a real operating sysytem. On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > >box (which makes everything run MUCH faster). A 386 can run Windoze95 IFF > >it has a Pentium sticker. > > The Emperor's New Clothes in the information age :) > How long does it take to install win95 on a 386? Longer than on a pentium, > I'll bet, especially since you may have to sit there and swap floppies. > I have no problem running Windows 3.1, I like it a lot more in some ways. > It's a very nice program, now that I've seen the alternative :) > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From max82 at surfree.com Thu Apr 15 17:44:02 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Worst of Both Worlds (IMPORTANT) Message-ID: I saw a blurb in the newspaper (available at http://www.tcm.org/join_forces.html) that The Computer Museum and The Science Museum in Boston, MA are merging. It says that 'The History Center' of the Computer Museum is now in Mountain View, California and is applying to become a separate institution. Anyway, this shuffling may mean lots of stuff being thrown out or damaged. The Computer Museum may opt to clean out its basement... --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 15 18:53:32 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > The Emperor's New Clothes in the information age :) > How long does it take to install win95 on a 386? Longer than on a pentium, > I'll bet, especially since you may have to sit there and swap floppies. I use a external SCSI (NEC #25 1X) CDROM connected through a Trantor Mini-SCSI-EPP parallel port adapter. It takes a while, but works reasonably well. A 386 is NOT a good configuration for general purpose Windoze95, but for a dedicated machine for data entry, it's usable. > I have no problem running Windows 3.1, I like it a lot more in some ways. > It's a very nice program, now that I've seen the alternative :) Will Windoze95 look good to us when Win1900 comes out? From max82 at surfree.com Thu Apr 15 17:54:00 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: >If you can keep from breaking the keyboard, try running Win3.1 with the >Calmira updates. If you squint, and suspend disbelief, it could almost >be a real operating sysytem. What's a Calmira update, and why would I be likely to break the keyboard while running it? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Apr 15 18:55:27 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He Message-ID: In a message dated 99-04-15 19:12:43 EDT, you write: > The Emperor's New Clothes in the information age :) > How long does it take to install win95 on a 386? Longer than on a pentium, > I'll bet, especially since you may have to sit there and swap floppies. > I have no problem running Windows 3.1, I like it a lot more in some ways. > It's a very nice program, now that I've seen the alternative :) > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power there's nothing wrong with a 386 running win3.1 i think the min requirements for windont95 is 386dx-40 and 8meg. i setup a ps2 model 57sx for a person that normally couldnt afford one and put plenty of old software like msworks and publisher and some dos games as well as an external 14.4 modem. a local isp will help her set it up for net access and she's happy as a clam. it is slow, but certainly better than nothing. heck, even doom 2 will run on a 386 if you run it in a small window! From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Apr 15 19:12:00 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: Worst of Both Worlds (IMPORTANT) In-Reply-To: from Max Eskin at "Apr 15, 1999 06:44:02 pm" Message-ID: <199904160012.AAA25162@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > I saw a blurb in the newspaper (available at > http://www.tcm.org/join_forces.html) that The Computer Museum and The > Science Museum in Boston, MA are merging. It says that 'The History > Center' of the Computer Museum is now in Mountain View, California and is > applying to become a separate institution. Anyway, this shuffling may mean > lots of stuff being thrown out or damaged. The Computer Museum may opt to > clean out its basement... > Maybe I can pick up a Sun 1/100U from them ;) -Lawrence LeMay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 15 19:13:13 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:11 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 15, 99 06:12:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1493 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990416/90058972/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 15 19:14:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: Worst of Both Worlds (IMPORTANT) In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 15, 99 06:44:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 505 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990416/8ebf2bd4/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Apr 15 19:34:19 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: References: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 15, 99 06:12:02 pm Message-ID: <199904160029.UAA13046@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:13:13 +0100 (BST) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: OT: Welfare state morality Snip! > > >I really don't understand this love of breaking things. > > > > I don't have the expertise that you do, nor the time to do learn. I'm > > fed > > Hmmm... OK, so I've been learning about computers for about 23 years now > (ouch? really that long???), but I had to start somewhere. I guess I just > wanted to learn. It still doesn't explain why people prefer destroying > something to creating something. > > > up with the piles of crud that surround me, which I store because I > > might need it someday, but actually never end up using. There's also the > > issue > > Of course if you throw something out, you can bet you'll need it the next > day? That is ever-present paradox we have to deal with daily. I kept all the bolts and screws, doodads in 2 appox 1.5L plastic wide-mouth screw-on cap. Same here, didn't have right nut to mount the 701C HD socket properly till found it in that container. I can vouch for that, happened to me few times before I wised up and carefully pick what to save. > realise and go out and recover it from the bin] > > -tony > Laughs... take that lesson well everyone! I lost a TV remote this way! It mysteriously walked off and didn't realize it is in that bin when I took grabage out. Oh, any relining and couch can eat the tasty remote. *CRUNCH!* Happened to friend who was searching for bits of parts till I visited there on vacation and helped him to recover parts by inverting and thumping hard that recliner that and there till parts drops out. Remote came out fine after replacing all LEDs and parts in place. Wizard From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Apr 15 19:38:31 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: <199904152009.QAA00984@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgocable.net" at "Apr 15, 1999 4:14:44 pm" Message-ID: <199904160038.UAA64258@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > > 30pin simms of any kind is very hard to come by now compared to > ease of obtaining used 72pin of all types. > Now SDRAM is for short time, cheapest possible to go. :) > Really... I'll swap 4 4mb 30 pit Simms for 16mb true parity 72pin simms in a minute. (The Sparc IPX used 33 bit wide Simms) but 36 will work. I might just get the Sparc IPX up to speed then. Anyone want to take me up on it? Bill From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 15 19:48:47 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: Worst of Both Worlds (IMPORTANT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > I saw a blurb in the newspaper (available at > http://www.tcm.org/join_forces.html) that The Computer Museum and The > Science Museum in Boston, MA are merging. It says that 'The History > Center' of the Computer Museum is now in Mountain View, California and is > applying to become a separate institution. Anyway, this shuffling may mean > lots of stuff being thrown out or damaged. The Computer Museum may opt to > clean out its basement... Not likely. I'm not on the inside but I gather its merely a formality to make the History Center officially a separate organization, History Center and the "Museum" have little in common as far as their mission goes. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Apr 15 16:07:43 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: References: <199904150638.CAA09577@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199904160106.VAA04221@smtp.interlog.com> On 15 Apr 99 at 16:07, Max Eskin wrote: > On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > I used to admire your brash freshness and sense of social justice but now I > >must question which brand of the new Soviet mafia you are enamored of . > > I am a sort of intermediary between the various factions... > > > Correct me if I'm wrong Max but I believe you live in NYC. Are you telling me > >that everyone in NYC has a computer who desires one ? This glut of computers > >that you had "fun" destroying, was there really any attempt to distribute them > >to the various communities and people who might desire a computer? > > Actually, I live in Boston, but your point remains the same. The problem > is simply that these computers aren't new enough. They can be used for > anything that a new one can be used for, but they won't read the newest MS > Word files. Microsoft made sure of that. Believe it or not, people can be > very picky about such things. Also, there is the issue that the computer > will never be used, or will get thrown away the next day, whatever. The > point is that there is no justification for the trouble it takes to > distribute computers to individuals. If these individuals want to get a > computer, fine. I have found dozens of computers in garbage cans, I'm sure > they can do no worse. > The advantage we have is that we are not intimidated by the technology and can fix them. I am heartened by some of the examples listed which get these machines out to people who can use them, especially the one that used them for teaching kids how to repair and then keep their machines. A lot of the disposable societies glut is because the majority of people haven't got a clue as to how their convenience machine works. If it stops fuctioning toss it and buy another. I'm amazed at what I find in the garbage. A good percentage of the time, it's just a faulty power cord. I don't use MS Word myself nor for that matter code-bloated Windblows 9x and don't find myself at any disadvantage except for some of the newer programs that demand 32 bit. I can do without them. There are plenty of programs available in the various archives to do my tasks. > > United States is held in contempt by much of the world just because of it's > >gluttinous consumer society attitudes. Surely CC is an example that shows > >that that is not the prevailing belief.. Most of us have respect for the labor > >and industry that went into these creations, usually ill-rewarded and often > >unrecognized. I would like to think that is the deeper feeling that motivates > >us, not the rising E-pay prices. > > The USA is held in contempt for many reasons, and the consumer society > attitude is part of a larger problem. Personally, I do not like to damage > anything, but once in a while, I like to have some fun. If I didn't do > that, I wouldn't be motivated to do anything useful in between. These > computers aren't classic, and aren't examples of labor/industry. They > weren't made by human hands, they mostly weren't even designed by human > hands. The only place where human hands stood to get mangled was by > getting paper cuts against the dollar bills and credit cards. > Your definition of "fun" eludes me. Maybe I'm just too old. > > I have been fascinated by the destructive angst of North American kids and > >have equivicated it to powerlessness and a reaction against a materialistic > >society but have still watched in awe as some project kids gleefully reduce > >an auto to meaningless junk. If it was my own kids I would kick shit out of > >them and realise I knew them not. > > My rising familiarity with technology past and present leads me to > question whether it wasn't meaningless junk before...seriously, if these > kids didn't own the car, they have a bigger problem, and should probably > get a sound beating. If it was their car, I can quite understand their > desire to release their exasperation. Isn't it better to smash a car than > a person? I guess you have lived a good life, and so have I, but even I > sometimes feel like nothing matters anymore, I'm so frustrated. And for > people living in the projects, it must be so much more serious. > My point exactly. I think that as a society we are in deep shit if this is the prevailing feeling of our children. > >when indoor toilets were a luxury I sometimes take a reality check and am > > How old are you, anyway? > That was in a rural villiage in Manitoba in the midforties and quite common outside the cities. > >astounded at what we now take for granted. I can actually record any event > >audio or visually and manipulate that data. I can print without typing or even > >print my voice dictation. I can hear a printed text if I desire or have access > >to a vast library of books or other media. Not to mention encyclopedias > >without end and news without editorial control. > > So what? I haven't found any useful purpose for recording events visually > and manipulating the data. The government sure has, and I think that's an > important fact. It's the government and the corporations that use this > technology, not us. But, we make use of such notions as generosity and > altruism, which a country or a corporation is incapable of. > What I am alluding to is the magnitude and rapidity of change in technology in this century. Events have occurred that are beyond the imagination of even the most visionary sci-fi writers from early in this century. All of us use every day things that would be mind-numbing to a previous generation. TV, VSRs, pocket tape recorders, not to mention things like the Internet where you can be in almost instantaneous contact with people all over the world. Governments have always used the prevailing media to manipulate people. The sophistication of it is all thats changed. But of course it's a double edged sword as evidenced by various gov. unsuccessful so far attempts to control the media. eg Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey and of course Mexico with the Chiapas rebels. > > I am reminded that my mothers fresh home made bread was accompanied with an > >admoniton that we had to stop feasting our avericious young appetites on the > >delicious warm fresh loaves with fresh butter since it would make us sick if > >too much was ingested. It took me years to discern that it would also deplete > >the stock of bread from our sparse larders. Try and explain that to a kid in > >North America (not Mexico) who thinks that bread is plentiful and pretty > >boring.unless covered in jam. > > For one thing, home-baked bread is much less boring than factory-made > bread. I once went for a walk next to a lake, which was just near a Wonder > Bread factory. That place smells like a crematorium! All of our advanced > farming techniques have done nothing besides fatten somebody's wallet and > increase the incidence of cancer. Over a billion are still starving and nobody > who can do something wants to do anything about it. Back in the USSR, I > remember reading a book about --guess what-- saving bread. > > A boy gets bored with his piece of bread and begins to play with it. He > rolls it up into a ball and throws it away. The ball comes alive and > starts to reproach him. It leads him to the farm where a farmer plants > seeds, where a driver operates a combine harvester, etc. all the way up to > the bakery. At the end, the boy says he will never play with bread again. > What an exemplary story. We could use more like it rather than the Rambo and Streetfighter types. > Just thought I'd mention that one. There is no shortage of bread in this > world. There is an excess of assholes. > Amen to that. > > The bottom line is that we shoud feel ashamed at anything that goes to > >landfill that is desired and beneficial even out of respect for the labour > >that has gone into them. My Take on things. > > I am very much of a packrat, that's why I'm on this list. I just take > breaks sometimes. > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power > > As the old Chinese curse goes "May you live in interesting times" ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From bill at chipware.com Thu Apr 15 20:40:02 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: 8" drive on a pc controller Message-ID: <199904160138.SAA21125@mxu2.u.washington.edu> > > Shouldn't you gentlemen be considering, instead of which format, at what > > kind of DRIVE is involved? > > Excellent point, as I have been using a Mitsubishi that I set at 6ms. Ah! Shugart and Seimens drives, requiring 15ms. From at258 at osfn.org Thu Apr 15 20:45:49 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: Worst of Both Worlds (IMPORTANT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm not surprised. I heard most of the good stuff had been shipped west a couple of years ago. On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > I saw a blurb in the newspaper (available at > http://www.tcm.org/join_forces.html) that The Computer Museum and The > Science Museum in Boston, MA are merging. It says that 'The History > Center' of the Computer Museum is now in Mountain View, California and is > applying to become a separate institution. Anyway, this shuffling may mean > lots of stuff being thrown out or damaged. The Computer Museum may opt to > clean out its basement... > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Thu Apr 15 20:47:54 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's been said you have a propensity for damaging things...:) Check out Calmira.org . They are doing some quite surprising things with 3.1. On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > >If you can keep from breaking the keyboard, try running Win3.1 with the > >Calmira updates. If you squint, and suspend disbelief, it could almost > >be a real operating sysytem. > > What's a Calmira update, and why would I be likely to break the keyboard > while running it? > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ddavidso at metz.une.edu.au Thu Apr 15 20:49:31 1999 From: ddavidso at metz.une.edu.au (Dean Davidson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: NEC APC III In-Reply-To: <01be82d9$72ce7640$919ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990416114931.00830400@metz.une.edu.au> At 15:36 9/04/99 -0700, you wrote: >I need a boot disk for an NEC APC III. I believe it has a 720k 5.25" >floppy, and uses a special version of DOS 2.11. My question is: If I can't >find a 720k 5.25" floppy (360k disks won't work), would I be able to replace >it with a 720k 3.5" drive? > Jason, I have a selection of APC III disks, all 720K 5 1/4 Included are: System Checking Ver 5.0 SLE DOS 3.1 DOS 2.11 DOS 3.1 Utilities Etc, Problem is, I'm not sure how I can get a disk image of them! Dean -- Dean Davidson Web: http://www.une.edu.au/psychology/staff/deand.htm School of Psychology Email: mailto:ddavidso@metz.une.edu.au University of New England Phone: +61 2 6773 2585 Armidale NSW 2351 Australia VK2 ZID From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 15 20:59:31 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He Message-ID: <199904160159.AA12323@world.std.com> <>Personally, I tend to draw the line at the 386. In a Windows and GUI world <>I really don't want the aggravation to trying to teach someone text mode <>apps or of having to listen when they can't find *any* software. This is <>the same reason I will never give another person an Apple II unless they <>already know about and want one. Most of the later 386 are ok, parts are easy and they do run winders95 though W3.1 is a better match. I know I've done it. The real market for them is the MINIX/LINIX crowd as those OSs can really make them sing. Minix on a DELL 316 (386slx/16 with 8mb) really runs well and linux on same is fair. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 15 20:59:49 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality Message-ID: <199904160159.AA12575@world.std.com> >> I saw a blurb in the newspaper (available at >> http://www.tcm.org/join_forces.html) that The Computer Museum and The >> Science Museum in Boston, MA are merging. It says that 'The History >> Center' of the Computer Museum is now in Mountain View, California and >> is applying to become a separate institution. Anyway, this shuffling >> may mean lots of stuff being thrown out or damaged. The Computer Museum >> may opt to clean out its basement... > >OK, so who is close enough to dumpster-dive? I am... and I think Allison might be interested... I heard something about this on NPR earlier today... they were talking about how the purposes of both museums (with regard to computers) are compatible in that they want to focus on the affect computers have had on our lives... I take that to mean that they won't be as interested in the hardware and specific technologies... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 15 21:06:28 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: MINIMUM Requirements (Was: OT: Re: Time to declare In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > there's nothing wrong with a 386 running win3.1 i think the min requirements > for windont95 is 386dx-40 and 8meg. [this has little to do with what's "REASONABLE"] SX will work. -40? Speed doesn't matter at all, other than trying to be "REASONABLE" billg said that 95 would work with 4M, but I was never able to run anything but "safe mode" (I have an NEC VERSA 486 that rejects memory expansion) OTOH, with 3.1, a 6MHz IBM AT (286) works nicely for printing invoices, etc. I always find it very annoying when documentation writers don't understand the difference between "minimum required" and "minimum recommended". For 95, I would generally not recommend less than 20M with at least 75MHz Pentium. And preferably more and faster. From max82 at surfree.com Thu Apr 15 20:26:56 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: Worst of Both Worlds (IMPORTANT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >OK, so who is close enough to dumpster-dive? I am, for one. I will ask some questions of the computer museum people. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From max82 at surfree.com Thu Apr 15 20:50:53 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: >It's been said you have a propensity for damaging things...:) Check out >Calmira.org . They are doing some quite surprising things with 3.1. This looks like a simple interface modification. I've tried several of these and liked most of them. I still don't understand why nobody bothers to build something entirely new...(like BeOS, only exciting) --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From max82 at surfree.com Thu Apr 15 20:55:45 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: <199904160159.AA12575@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: >Simple dont use word, it's virus prone. What if someone needs it for their job? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 15 22:03:48 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: Xerox System 60? Message-ID: Does anyone know what the purpose of a Xerox System 60 is? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From KFergason at aol.com Thu Apr 15 22:06:41 1999 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: MINIMUM Requirements (Was: OT: Re: Time to declare Message-ID: <6cd2d87c.24480341@aol.com> In a message dated 4/15/99 9:11:07 PM Central Daylight Time, cisin@xenosoft.com writes: > billg said that 95 would work with 4M, but I was never able to run > anything but "safe mode" (I have an NEC VERSA 486 that rejects memory > expansion) > my girlfriend runs 95 on a 386-20 dec laptop with 4M. it works. printing a page on the Laserjet takes 5 minutes. From donm at cts.com Thu Apr 15 22:32:50 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: 8" drive on a pc controller In-Reply-To: <199904160138.SAA21125@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > Shouldn't you gentlemen be considering, instead of which format, at > what > > > kind of DRIVE is involved? > > > > Excellent point, as I have been using a Mitsubishi that I set at 6ms. > > Ah! > > Shugart and Seimens drives, requiring 15ms. More usual is 10ms. - don From donm at cts.com Thu Apr 15 22:44:20 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > >Simple dont use word, it's virus prone. > > What if someone needs it for their job? If they need it for their job, their employer should furnish it. If self employed, they should be able to make the choice. - don From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Apr 15 23:07:02 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: PET rediscoveries and questions Message-ID: <19990416040702.22129.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> While going through the stuff on my top shelf, I ran across some boxes I aquired when the local Commodore dealer went out of business several years ago. Among the booty are a couple of special boards that I need some more info on before I can put them to use... I have these two boards, new in the box, with all the cables, etc., one Computhink (324042-01) and one BMB (324038-01). There's excellent scanned docs on ftp.funet.fi as well as three demo disk images (which I believe are very recent). I even happen to have one SuperPET language reference manual. Do I need anything else? How do I go about selecting the different languages in there? Does anyone out there have a SuperPET with docs/software? I'd love to find out a little bit about it before I go mucking around inside an 8032. Thanks, -ethan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Apr 15 23:09:39 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He Message-ID: <19990416040939.11236.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bill Pechter wrote: > > > > 30pin simms of any kind is very hard to come by now compared to > > ease of obtaining used 72pin of all types. > > I'll swap 4 4mb 30 pit Simms for 16mb true parity 72pin simms in a minute. > (The Sparc IPX used 33 bit wide Simms) but 36 will work. I'd do the same. I have more 4Mx9 SIMMs than I need, and I do need between two and four 16Mb true parity 72-pin SIMMs for a SPARC-LX (60ns) or my Alpha (70ns). -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From rickb at pail.enginet.com Thu Apr 15 23:31:08 1999 From: rickb at pail.enginet.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: Worst of Both Worlds (IMPORTANT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000801be87c1$f29bfea0$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> > > I saw a blurb in the newspaper (available at > http://www.tcm.org/join_forces.html) that The Computer Museum and The > Science Museum in Boston, MA are merging. It says that 'The History > Center' of the Computer Museum is now in Mountain View, California and is > applying to become a separate institution. Anyway, this shuffling may mean > lots of stuff being thrown out or damaged. The Computer Museum may opt to > clean out its basement... So, I'm making a trip to Mt. View, CA. next Tuesday. Where is this "History Center" located in Mt. View, and is it open for biz during the daytime hours? I'd like to sneak out of silly meetings at lunch or something and perhaps take a look. Anyone knoe the address and details? Thanks, Rick Bensene The Old Calculators Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/7510 From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Apr 15 23:22:54 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward? Message-ID: <19990415.232254.155.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: I suspect there is one among us who can rightfully bear this title; if so, I need his guidance, wisdom, and council. I have some questions regarding some obscure MFM disk interfaces made by Western DIgital. Specifically the WD-1000-5 disk controller. These are the ones that pre-dated the HDC's they made for the ISA bus; they were frequently found on CP/M and MP/M machines that were equipped with fixed disk drives (some of the TeleVideo machines come to mind). If you are intimately familiar with this legendary interface, I would like to hear from you. I need to figure out how to modify it for 8" harddrives. Also, does anyone have docs for the Quantum Q-2040 8" Winchester? I dunno what kind of power to feed it (24v sounds correct, but I seem to recall it used 110vac also!), and so on. Thanks. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Apr 15 13:58:52 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: OT: City Names References: <199904151701.TAA06803@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <024701be8772$bc710ea0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Friday, April 16, 1999 3:31 AM Subject: Re: OT: City Names > > > Just back from Warschau (Poland) - Thanks. And BTW: since Karfreitag > > > Where? Oh, you mean Warszawa. Warsaw. ;-) > > (You're just lucky that's one of the few polish words without lots of > accents etc.) Hmm do you want to start another War ? ;) > > If you live in a city like Munich you learn about the ways > of naming a city - and of coure how senseless it is to > belive in calling a thin worldwide with one single name. Well, maybe you could explain it to me, I'm afraid I don't get it. :^) I always wondered why Munich sometimes gets shown as Munchen. I can't do those funny accented characters, (umlauts?) even if I knew what they meant, just as well, most people around here have enough difficulty with 26 letters. I don't know how you guys cope with all the extras, not to mention all this masculine/feminine/neuter gender and case stuff. Confused the hell out of me. > > > to find out that I had no Swiss power adaptor at hand (thy use a > > > different connector)... Good things about living in a single island country that's larger than most of Europe. 1) Everybody speaks English. ('Cepting a few migrants/boat people....:^) They expose kids to other languages at school, but theres is no real need/pressure to learn one to a level where conversation is possible. (Who we gonna practice on/talk to?) Some do learn Indonesian or Japanese, but most don't bother. 2) You don't need a passport to drive across the road. Or travel 2000km for that matter. 3) 240VAC 3 pin sockets are a national standard. Disadvantages are mostly that we can't get feel of other European cultures without flying a few thousand miles. I can't drive to another country. I sometimes envy you guys for that, heck I don't even have a passport, there's nowhere for me to use without an air ticket. I'd love to travel, Europe, the USA etc, but on my income, it's unlikely I will ever get overseas, and I don't have the kind of job or work for a company that would need me to do so. I could probably manage a trip to Indonesia one day, (about the same distance as Sydney to Perth) but the tropics don't really attract me, it gets hot enough around here.;^) CNN is about the nearest I get. Upside is that I can now read most of the Cyrillic alphabet after 4 weeks of watching snippets of Serbian TV news subtitles! (Well I can read Belgrad(e) Pristina and Novi Sad anyway) Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 16 00:12:11 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: 8" drive on a pc controller Message-ID: <002801be87c7$af22fce0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Please forgive my interloping, here, but my SHUGART and Siemens SD 8" drives are spec'd for 6 ms step rate, and the double-headed types for 3 ms. It's really best (mechanically) to step these babies as fast as they will go, and it's quieter too. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 15, 1999 9:41 PM Subject: Re: 8" drive on a pc controller >On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > >> > > Shouldn't you gentlemen be considering, instead of which format, at >> what >> > > kind of DRIVE is involved? >> > >> > Excellent point, as I have been using a Mitsubishi that I set at 6ms. >> >> Ah! >> >> Shugart and Seimens drives, requiring 15ms. > >More usual is 10ms. > - don > > > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Apr 16 00:21:01 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: Computer Museum History Center In-Reply-To: <000801be87c1$f29bfea0$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> from "Rick Bensene" at Apr 15, 99 09:31:08 pm Message-ID: <199904160521.WAA03052@saul3.u.washington.edu> > So, I'm making a trip to Mt. View, CA. next Tuesday. Where is this > "History Center" located in Mt. View, and is it open for biz during > the daytime hours? I'd like to sneak out of silly meetings at lunch > or something and perhaps take a look. Anyone knoe the address and > details? It's on the Moffett Field Air Force (?) base. I just checked their Web page and evidently there are tours on Wednesdays, though I've always had much more fun seeing the collection myself. The first step is to check the Web page. It's http://www.tcm.org/html/history/index.html You'll need a graphical browser (Lynx will be unpleasant). Ironic but true. The Web page talks about the tours and should have information about getting in touch with one of the curators. Getting in touch is the second step -- if you go on the public tours, you will probably need to get a pass to the base. If you get a private tour, you will definitely need a pass. I assume you're a US citizen. (Yes, really! That's what happens when the military is involved.) You'd better call early tomorrow. -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Apr 16 00:24:48 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: Remove My Email Address From the Classiccmp List In-Reply-To: <000e01be8771$92fc1200$b28d480c@437174027worldnet.att.net> from "MICHAEL PARADISO" at Apr 15, 99 11:55:46 am Message-ID: <199904160524.WAA06055@saul3.u.washington.edu> > Please remove my email address from the classiccmp list. > This email address is now being used by my business. > I will be getting a new address just for the classiccmp list. I just took you off the list. You'll also get an automated message from the list software. Let me know if you want any help re-subscribing. -- Derek From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 16 02:35:07 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward? In-Reply-To: <19990415.232254.155.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> References: <19990415.232254.155.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <19990416073507.8736.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Specifically the WD-1000-5 disk controller. These are the ones that [...] > If you are intimately familiar with this legendary interface, I would > like to hear from you. I need to figure out how to modify it for 8" > harddrives. Regrettably I no longer have the manual or schematics for these, so a lot of this is from memory. The WD1000-5 was the WD1000 repackaged on an 8" * 5.75" board, to match the form factor of 5.25" drives. The original WD1000 and WD1001 had both 34 and 50 pin drive control connectors. I'm guessing that the WD1000-5 left the 50 pin connector out. However, you only need to scramble the pins appropriately, as the actual signals are the same. All odd pins are ground on both connectors; the others should map thusly: 34-pin 50-pin signal 2 2 *RWC reduced write current 4 4 *HS2 head select 2 6 40 *WG write gate 8 8 *SC seek complete 10 42 *TK0 track 0 12 44 *WF write fault 14 14 *HS0 head select 0 16 NC 18 18 *HS1 head select 1 20 20 *IDX index 22 22 *RDY ready 24 36 *STEP 26 26 *DS1 drive select 1 28 28 *DS2 drive select 2 30 30 *DS3 drive select 3 32 32 *DS4 drive select 4 34 34 *DIR step direction (in when asserted) The radial data connectors are the same for both drive sizes. The bigger problem is that 8-inch drives used a data rate of 4.34 Mbps rather than 5 Mbps. I seem to recall that the WD1000 had a jumper setting for this. If they removed the 50-pin drive control connector, they probably also removed the jumper and supporting circuitry. > Also, does anyone have docs for the Quantum Q-2040 8" > Winchester? I dunno what kind of power to feed it (24v sounds correct, > but I seem to recall it used 110vac also!), and so on. No data here, but almost certainly not 110 VAC. Probably 24V AC and 5V DC. You *might* be able to get a Q2040 to run at 5 Mbps, but I've never personally seen it done. From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Apr 16 02:40:08 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990415154941.0098e3a0@207.207.0.212> References: <199904152009.QAA00984@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: >Have you got any 1Mb DIPPs?? I have seen SIPPs, but have none of either. What exactly is a DIPP? From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Apr 16 03:17:21 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: Recliners by Iron Mountain In-Reply-To: <199904160029.UAA13046@mail.cgocable.net> References: from "Max Eskin" at Apr Message-ID: >Laughs... take that lesson well everyone! I lost a TV remote this >way! It mysteriously walked off and didn't realize it is in that bin >when I took grabage out. Oh, any relining and couch can eat the >tasty remote. *CRUNCH!* Happened to friend who was searching >for bits of parts till I visited there on vacation and helped him to >recover parts by inverting and thumping hard that recliner that and >there till parts drops out. Remote came out fine after replacing all >LEDs and parts in place. One of the items I prized from my high school graduation was a solid silver very nice looking pen. I kept it safe for a few years, then lost it. Seven years later I found it while giving a recliner a final shake out prior to goodwill. I once dropped a doorlock key in our Volvo 145 wagon, and NEVER found it. When I moved out of my parents house my mom let a string of people stay in my room. One day while visiting I noticed one of my Lowe Alpspitz hiking boots that cost $185 a pair in 1970 sitting in the trash. It was more than 10 years later that I finally found the other boot. Anyone that thinks I might toss some computer stuff, just doesn't know me. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 16 07:31:38 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: Afe of CD (was: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199904161032.MAA16236@horus.mch.sni.de> > >box (which makes everything run MUCH faster). A 386 can run Windoze95 IFF > >it has a Pentium sticker. > The Emperor's New Clothes in the information age :) > How long does it take to install win95 on a 386? Longer than on a pentium, > I'll bet, especially since you may have to sit there and swap floppies. Please, Max, do you belive the CD was invented together with the 486 ? - Just for the records, I had my first (private owned) CD Drive on a 386-16 MHz. At the office we had an CD connected to a XT (a genuine PHILIPS audio drive with changed controller to supply raw CD data to the PC - all work was done by a 4.77 MHz 8088 :)), while later on most friends used 286 with CD, this was at a time when 286 _and_ XTs still rueled the (PC) world. Also there is no reason to hinder a CD from working on any 386 box. In fact, from todays view it es necersarry to attach a (cheap) CD if you want to use the 'old' 386. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Fri Apr 16 06:37:26 1999 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: OT: City Names In-Reply-To: <024701be8772$bc710ea0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> References: <199904151701.TAA06803@horus.mch.sni.de> <024701be8772$bc710ea0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: >I always wondered why Munich sometimes gets shown as Munchen. Because that's what the Germans call it? > I can't do >those funny accented characters, (umlauts?) even if I knew what they meant, >just as well, most people around here have enough difficulty with 26 >letters. I don't know how you guys cope with all the extras, not to mention Extras? It's the same characters. Accented. If you think about it, it actually helps pronounciation. Can you explain why English words are pronounced the way they are? Like not how they are spelt? >all this masculine/feminine/neuter gender and case stuff. Confused the hell >out of me. m/f/n is no that difficult. Just different from language to language. When you grow up with it, that's it! >1) Everybody speaks English. ('Cepting a few migrants/boat people....:^) Now they do... >They expose kids to other languages at school, but theres is no real >need/pressure to learn one to a level where conversation is possible. >(Who we gonna practice on/talk to?) >Some do learn Indonesian or Japanese, but most don't bother. Fair enough. You get that in much smaller single country islands - like UK. >2) You don't need a passport to drive across the road. Or travel 2000km for >that matter. You don't need a passport in the EU either. Just valid ID. >3) 240VAC 3 pin sockets are a national standard. I think only the English (and Swiss?) are the ones that want to be different to the rest of Europe - in this case anyway (there are many others). :)= Nasos From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Fri Apr 16 06:39:35 1999 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: <199904151452.JAA23468@thufir.cs.umn.edu> References: <199904151452.JAA23468@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: > > I used to admire your brash freshness and sense of social >justice but now I > > must question which brand of the new Soviet mafia you are enamored of . > > Correct me if I'm wrong Max but I believe you live in NYC. Are >you telling me > > that everyone in NYC has a computer who desires one ? This glut >of computers > > that you had "fun" destroying, was there really any attempt to >distribute them > > to the various communities and people who might desire a computer? Oh, does anyone know anything like that in the UK? I really don't want to throw all this away. I am sure there must be somebody out there still using old HP equipment or could have fun saving it. Nasos. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 16 09:02:33 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: Power Outlets In-Reply-To: References: <024701be8772$bc710ea0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <199904161203.OAA29443@horus.mch.sni.de> > >3) 240VAC 3 pin sockets are a national standard. Now, 3 wire 240V is standard in Europe, but for the Outlet there are more than a dozend variations. Some are compatible (like the German and French - The french use one additional Pin in the outlet for safty ground, while the germans use two lids on the side of the outlet - but most plugs are made to fit both outlets with full function. > I think only the English (and Swiss?) are the ones that want to be > different to the rest of Europe - in this case anyway (there are many > others). The French/German combination counts for some 80% of all outlets in (Continental) Europe (and the Swiss system is AFAIR like the English (but not compatible)). Funny EU Fact: there has been a project to develop a unified system for whole Europe, but since, like in all these projects, no nation should be served better than others, the new standard connectors had to be disigned to be incompatible to _all_ existing standards, instead of geting the best solution with a possible large compatibility to existing standards. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Apr 16 07:08:16 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: More InnfoGraphics auction listings in Portland, OR, USA Message-ID: I have added more info to the classic computer section of the Innfographics auction web page. http://members.aol.com/innfograph It will be an interesting sale. Paxton From at258 at osfn.org Fri Apr 16 07:36:14 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, it almost makes Windog bearable. There was talk of redoing the the naughty bits, but apparently they think they're not capable of doing it. There's a Calmira tips list, but the description ball-less yuppie scum springs to mind. On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > >It's been said you have a propensity for damaging things...:) Check out > >Calmira.org . They are doing some quite surprising things with 3.1. > > This looks like a simple interface modification. I've tried several of > these and liked most of them. I still don't understand why nobody bothers > to build something entirely new...(like BeOS, only exciting) > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Fri Apr 16 07:40:30 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It really is unbelievable that anyone should require such a piece of crap. At least in theory, all anyone needs for WP is a readable file. To me that means ascii. If they want fancy output, then it's a hardware problem, and it shouldn't matter how the physical text was produced. This sort of thing probably happens because Darwin got it wrong and humans are selected on the basis of stupidity... On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > > > On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > > >Simple dont use word, it's virus prone. > > > > What if someone needs it for their job? > > If they need it for their job, their employer should furnish it. If self > employed, they should be able to make the choice. > > - don > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Apr 16 07:49:14 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990415154941.0098e3a0@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990416074914.009a0810@207.207.0.212> >>Have you got any 1Mb DIPPs?? > >I have seen SIPPs, but have none of either. What exactly is a DIPP? A DIPP is another name for SIPP by morons (Like myself) who momentarily forgot that SIPP was the correct name. Anyone have any small 1Mb SIPPs? ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From gram at cnct.com Fri Apr 16 09:02:20 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > >Simple dont use word, it's virus prone. > > What if someone needs it for their job? Then they can use it on the job, where the company paid for it to be installed on the company's computer and if it gets eaten by the next macro virus to come down the pike, who cares? That's no reason to use it anywhere else -- even if you have to take work home, you save the document in an intelligently macro-free format and use it with whatever you want. (Yeah, yeah, when you save a Word document in another format, it always whinges that features will be lost -- too bad for it). My normal save format is ASCII text. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 16 11:29:31 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: Hardware kicks (was: Software collectors list) In-Reply-To: References: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 13, 99 06:39:34 pm Message-ID: <199904161430.QAA18219@horus.mch.sni.de> > > > Its not that software discussion wouldn't be welcome here, its that many > > > collectors of software have no interest in the hardware side. I think > > I disagree with this statement, and wonder where your reasoning comes > > from. Just as hardware is useless without software, what good is software > > without hardware? > Well, there are some people who run old software under emulators on > modern computers, aren't there? > Personally, I can't see the point. If you can't take a soldering iron to > the machine, what good is it :-) :-) :-) :-) Thats a personal motivated effect - as far as I can tell this conjunction of Hardwar & soldering iron will result in some celebral stress. The basic reaction will include a lot of different chemicals and hormones to support and later on supress this effect. The result can be called Good in a lot of ways. Drugs ? Why ? We got soldering irons :) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Apr 16 00:09:28 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: OT: City Names References: <199904151701.TAA06803@horus.mch.sni.de> <024701be8772$bc710ea0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <001101be87c7$506fd2e0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: Athanasios Kotsenos To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Friday, April 16, 1999 9:07 PM Subject: Re: OT: City Names > >I always wondered why Munich sometimes gets shown as Munchen. > Because that's what the Germans call it? Good enough reason. Beats me why it is taught to us as being Munich then. > > > Extras? It's the same characters. Accented. If you think about it, it > actually helps pronounciation. Not really, well, not in English anyway.. >Can you explain why English words are > pronounced the way they are? Some I can, others I doubt if Mr. Oxford himself could explain. >Like not how they are spelt? Indeed, english spelling and grammar is awkward to non native speakers. Particularly since the rules seem to change depending on the word, in some cases anyway.. > >all this masculine/feminine/neuter gender and case stuff. Confused the hell > >out of me. > m/f/n is no that difficult. Just different from language to language. Well, no not really. Simply doesn't exist in English. Everything is um, neuter I guess, we don't have a term for it that we didn't pinch from another language actually. Trying to think of another language that doesn't do gender (in the linguistic sense), Norwegian is almost that way I think, but Indonesian is about the only one that is fully ungendered that I can recall. There may well be others, I am far from being even mildy competent in this area.. > When you grow up with it, that's it! The phrase "Fish aren't aware of water" springs to mind. Immersion from birth seems to have that effect.... > > >1) Everybody speaks English. ('Cepting a few migrants/boat people....:^) > Now they do... Many did prior to arriving. Some never get good at it, though it seems many understand it far better than they can speak it. Poor sods from eastern europe have the most trouble, apart from a different alphabet, (hard enough) the use of "a" and "the" and "this" and "that" (determinatives?) ie. "Get me the book" or "Get me that book". In Slavic languages it would be just "book" in each case. (That's how it was explained to me by a Ukrainian anyway.) > >Some do learn Indonesian or Japanese, but most don't bother. > Fair enough. You get that in much smaller single country islands - like UK. Yeah, the UK would fit 4 or 5 times into the STATE I live in, and thats only about a sixth of the continent. > >2) You don't need a passport to drive across the road. Or travel 2000km for > >that matter. > You don't need a passport in the EU either. Just valid ID. Ok, that's gotta be an improvement, we don't need one to go to New Zealand, but that's about it....Locally, (ie in Oz) theres no law about ID, though some states require you to have your license in your possession if you are driving, though SA doesn't, if you don't have it on you and are pulled over, (RBT or whatever) they give you a set time (24hrs generally) to produce it. Largely unnecessary since they can just bring up the database if needed. > >3) 240VAC 3 pin sockets are a national standard. > I think only the English (and Swiss?) are the ones that want to be > different to the rest of Europe - in this case anyway (there are many > others). What about the mains voltage? Does that vary a lot? We're all 240v 50hz. (In theory, anyway) Cheers Geoff From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Apr 16 00:13:07 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. References: <3.0.3.32.19990415154941.0098e3a0@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: <002301be87c7$d35bc100$f17d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: Arfon Gryffydd To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Friday, April 16, 1999 10:19 PM Subject: Re: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. > > >>Have you got any 1Mb DIPPs?? > > > >I have seen SIPPs, but have none of either. What exactly is a DIPP? > > A DIPP is another name for SIPP by morons (Like myself) who momentarily > forgot that SIPP was the correct name. > > Anyone have any small 1Mb SIPPs? Yes I have quite a few ex 386SX-20 Diskless workstations circa 1993. Er small? Was there more than one size. These are the same size as the equivalent simm, and can be converted to same by CAREFULLY removing the pins and the solder. (Not easy, but I have done it and made it work on occasion - though only when desperate it's a real PITA) Cheers Geoff Roberts From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 16 11:45:48 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199904161446.QAA19932@horus.mch.sni.de> > In the earliest versions of MS-DOS, the choices were Anort, Retry, Ignore. > Later, they added "Fail", and also permitted the OS to only include the > choices that were relevant. DOS 3.1 - but visible to the user only since 3.3. > So, have error messages been getting better or worse? Many MICROS~1 > message now leave out those annoying details, such as WHAT went wrong. > And the "OK" button is offensive to me. > "Absolutely everything that you have done since your last system backup > has been totally and irretrievably corrupted. OK?" No, it is NOT OK! I > REFUSE to click OK to that! So you got a quite big collection of WINDOW~1 (I did rename it back from SHITSTUFF to WINDOWS, but he still insists that the name uses more than 8 char) boxes standing in your office with one of these userfriendly (tm MS) messages ? SCNR H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 16 09:55:11 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward? Message-ID: <000801be8819$351cea80$0100c0a8@fuj03> -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 1:45 AM Subject: Re: Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward? >> Specifically the WD-1000-5 disk controller. These are the ones that >[...] >> If you are intimately familiar with this legendary interface, I would >> like to hear from you. I need to figure out how to modify it for 8" >> harddrives. > >Regrettably I no longer have the manual or schematics for these, so a lot >of this is from memory. > >The WD1000-5 was the WD1000 repackaged on an 8" * 5.75" board, to match the >form factor of 5.25" drives. There's more to the difference than that. For one thing, the WD1000 series used the WD1100 chipset and an 8X300 microcontroller to run the whole thing, while the WD1000-05 and -08, as well as the later models, used the WD1010 chip along with other combinations of the 40-pin support chipset of which WD1014, which was, in at least one incarnation, an 8041. >The original WD1000 and WD1001 had both 34 and 50 pin drive control >connectors. I'm guessing that the WD1000-5 left the 50 pin connector out. >However, you only need to scramble the pins appropriately, as the actual >signals are the same. All odd pins are ground on both connectors; the others >should map thusly: > > 34-pin 50-pin signal > > 2 2 *RWC reduced write current > 4 4 *HS2 head select 2 > 6 40 *WG write gate > 8 8 *SC seek complete > 10 42 *TK0 track 0 > 12 44 *WF write fault > 14 14 *HS0 head select 0 > 16 NC > 18 18 *HS1 head select 1 > 20 20 *IDX index > 22 22 *RDY ready > 24 36 *STEP > 26 26 *DS1 drive select 1 > 28 28 *DS2 drive select 2 > 30 30 *DS3 drive select 3 > 32 32 *DS4 drive select 4 > 34 34 *DIR step direction (in when asserted) This should look pretty much like 8" floppy disks. An early controller I built used an FDC chip to drive these control signals, as the 8" Winchesters had the same maximal step rate back then as the 8" double-headed FDD's. That's overkill, and the FDC expects to see things from the data stream which close the loop, and it won't see them. Open-loop, e.g. simple head-positioning command operation is possible, at least to see if the drive's mechanical functions are working. An enterprising approach would be to operate the drive with a pair of small single-chippers one fairly slow one to handle the head positioning, and the other a fairly quick one to modulate the data, e.g. with ERLL code as was used in the PERSTOR controllers. >The radial data connectors are the same for both drive sizes. Yes except that some drives extracted clock locally and sent it on the data cable as well. For that reason, it would be advisable to stick with the 4.34 MHz data rate. Keep in mind, also, that while the wide cable is driven with open collectors, the data cable is intended to be driven with differential drivers/receivers of the MC3486/87 or 26LS31/32 type. >The bigger problem is that 8-inch drives used a data rate of 4.34 Mbps rather >than 5 Mbps. I seem to recall that the WD1000 had a jumper setting for this. >If they removed the 50-pin drive control connector, they probably also removed >the jumper and supporting circuitry. Western Digital was somewhat confused about how they should number their controller models back in those days, and the scheme got muddled, but as I recall, and I have some controllers to prove it, the data rate was fixed on the board at the factory, in some cases, particularly the larger WD1000 boards with the WD1100 chips + 8X300 on board, had a discrete VCO as opposed to the 74S124 or the LS624 they later used. These VCO's had to be tuned quite carefully and a procedure was included in the instruction manual. There were jumpers for accomplishing this tuning operation on nearly every type of board in this entire family, but one needed both a crystal and a retuned VCO for the PLL, not to mention changing the passive components in the integrator (LPF) of the clock extraction circuitry. The process of setting the VCO center frequency was not terribly difficult, but one had to know which jumpers to remove at which stage of the operation because there were inputs to the circuit which had to be active and other which had to be passive at different stages of the operation. >> Also, does anyone have docs for the Quantum Q-2040 8" >> Winchester? I dunno what kind of power to feed it (24v sounds correct, >> but I seem to recall it used 110vac also!), and so on. > >No data here, but almost certainly not 110 VAC. Probably 24V AC and 5V DC. The power connections are precisely what is used with an 8" FDD, including a 110 VAC supply for the spindle motor. Don't forget that some 8" drives had to be fed a negative 5V supply while others could swallow either -12 Vdc or -5, depending on a jumper because they had on-board regulation. You have to look for the regulator and ensure it has the jumper which bypassed it in the correct position. >You *might* be able to get a Q2040 to run at 5 Mbps, but I've never personally seen it done. We, meaning my people and I, tried this several times and never got it to work reliably with Shugart drives. They did some signal processing on the data, and included clock on the cable, so you might be able to skip the VCO retuning if you can find the "right" place to inject this conditioned clock in the data/clock recovery circuit. I'd be surprised to find the Quantum drives did things much differently, as they had to be compatible with the Shugarts, and some controllers, e.g. Intel's, relied on the drives or other external circuitry to extract clock. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 16 10:01:06 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. Message-ID: <000b01be8819$f4888460$0100c0a8@fuj03> You can solder a SIMM to a 30-pin row of screw-machine socket pins (not easy, but it works) and end up with connections much superior to what you normally get with SIPPs. They will not bend as easily and you'll have much less trouble with the beasties than with normal SIPPs, espacially the ones which have once had a bent pin, because those continue to want to bend. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Arfon Gryffydd To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 6:57 AM Subject: Re: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. > >>>Have you got any 1Mb DIPPs?? >> >>I have seen SIPPs, but have none of either. What exactly is a DIPP? > >A DIPP is another name for SIPP by morons (Like myself) who momentarily >forgot that SIPP was the correct name. > >Anyone have any small 1Mb SIPPs? > >---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... >######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # >#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## >####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### >###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### >##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### ># ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) >---------------------------------------- >Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > >Slackware Mailing List: >http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 16 10:17:08 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward? Message-ID: <001501be881c$32450b00$0100c0a8@fuj03> Oddly enough, though it hasn't been my stock-in-trade for about 15 years, I still have the manual for the original WD-1000 controller. I may, in fact, even have one of the boards around somewhere. I certainly have a couple of the ones used in the TVI TS-806-20's I have sitting in the driveway (under 4" of snow, at the moment). Dick -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 9:07 AM Subject: Re: Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Eric Smith >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 1:45 AM >Subject: Re: Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward? > > >>> Specifically the WD-1000-5 disk controller. These are the ones that >>[...] >>> If you are intimately familiar with this legendary interface, I would >>> like to hear from you. I need to figure out how to modify it for 8" >>> harddrives. >> >>Regrettably I no longer have the manual or schematics for these, so a lot >>of this is from memory. >> >>The WD1000-5 was the WD1000 repackaged on an 8" * 5.75" board, to match the >>form factor of 5.25" drives. > > >There's more to the difference than that. For one thing, the WD1000 series >used the WD1100 chipset and an 8X300 microcontroller to run the whole thing, >while the WD1000-05 and -08, as well as the later models, used the WD1010 >chip along with other combinations of the 40-pin support chipset of which >WD1014, which was, in at least one incarnation, an 8041. > >>The original WD1000 and WD1001 had both 34 and 50 pin drive control >>connectors. I'm guessing that the WD1000-5 left the 50 pin connector out. >>However, you only need to scramble the pins appropriately, as the actual >>signals are the same. All odd pins are ground on both connectors; the >others >>should map thusly: >> >> 34-pin 50-pin signal >> >> 2 2 *RWC reduced write current >> 4 4 *HS2 head select 2 >> 6 40 *WG write gate >> 8 8 *SC seek complete >> 10 42 *TK0 track 0 >> 12 44 *WF write fault >> 14 14 *HS0 head select 0 >> 16 NC >> 18 18 *HS1 head select 1 >> 20 20 *IDX index >> 22 22 *RDY ready >> 24 36 *STEP >> 26 26 *DS1 drive select 1 >> 28 28 *DS2 drive select 2 >> 30 30 *DS3 drive select 3 >> 32 32 *DS4 drive select 4 >> 34 34 *DIR step direction (in when asserted) > > >This should look pretty much like 8" floppy disks. An early controller I >built used an FDC chip to drive these control signals, as the 8" Winchesters >had the same maximal step rate back then as the 8" double-headed FDD's. >That's overkill, and the FDC expects to see things from the data stream >which close the loop, and it won't see them. Open-loop, e.g. simple >head-positioning command operation is possible, at least to see if the >drive's mechanical functions are working. An enterprising approach would be >to operate the drive with a pair of small single-chippers one fairly slow >one to handle the head positioning, and the other a fairly quick one to >modulate the data, e.g. with ERLL code as was used in the PERSTOR >controllers. > >>The radial data connectors are the same for both drive sizes. > > >Yes except that some drives extracted clock locally and sent it on the data >cable as well. For that reason, it would be advisable to stick with the >4.34 MHz data rate. Keep in mind, also, that while the wide cable is driven >with open collectors, the data cable is intended to be driven with >differential drivers/receivers of the MC3486/87 or 26LS31/32 type. > >>The bigger problem is that 8-inch drives used a data rate of 4.34 Mbps >rather >>than 5 Mbps. I seem to recall that the WD1000 had a jumper setting for >this. >>If they removed the 50-pin drive control connector, they probably also >removed >>the jumper and supporting circuitry. > > >Western Digital was somewhat confused about how they should number their >controller models back in those days, and the scheme got muddled, but as I >recall, and I have some controllers to prove it, the data rate was fixed on >the board at the factory, in some cases, particularly the larger WD1000 >boards with the WD1100 chips + 8X300 on board, had a discrete VCO as opposed >to the 74S124 or the LS624 they later used. These VCO's had to be tuned >quite carefully and a procedure was included in the instruction manual. >There were jumpers for accomplishing this tuning operation on nearly every >type of board in this entire family, but one needed both a crystal and a >retuned VCO for the PLL, not to mention changing the passive components in >the integrator (LPF) of the clock extraction circuitry. The process of >setting the VCO center frequency was not terribly difficult, but one had to >know which jumpers to remove at which stage of the operation because there >were inputs to the circuit which had to be active and other which had to be >passive at different stages of the operation. > >>> Also, does anyone have docs for the Quantum Q-2040 8" >>> Winchester? I dunno what kind of power to feed it (24v sounds correct, >>> but I seem to recall it used 110vac also!), and so on. >> >>No data here, but almost certainly not 110 VAC. Probably 24V AC and 5V DC. > > >The power connections are precisely what is used with an 8" FDD, including a >110 VAC supply for the spindle motor. Don't forget that some 8" drives had >to be fed a negative 5V supply while others could swallow either -12 Vdc >or -5, depending on a jumper because they had on-board regulation. You have >to look for the regulator and ensure it has the jumper which bypassed it in >the correct position. > >>You *might* be able to get a Q2040 to run at 5 Mbps, but I've never >personally seen it done. > >We, meaning my people and I, tried this several times and never got it to >work reliably with Shugart drives. They did some signal processing on the >data, and included clock on the cable, so you might be able to skip the VCO >retuning if you can find the "right" place to inject this conditioned clock >in the data/clock recovery circuit. I'd be surprised to find the Quantum >drives did things much differently, as they had to be compatible with the >Shugarts, and some controllers, e.g. Intel's, relied on the drives or other >external circuitry to extract clock. > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 16 10:20:12 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:12 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. Message-ID: <001a01be881c$9fe06e20$0100c0a8@fuj03> Actually, there was a DIPP package for many of the DRAMs. It was a single-in-line-looking version of the DIP, except that all the pins were on one side and they were staggered in their alignment. These were most often referred to as ZIP's, though I don't know why. The package was somewhat popular for about 5 years, after which it fell into disuse. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Geoff Roberts To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 8:53 AM Subject: Re: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Arfon Gryffydd >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Sent: Friday, April 16, 1999 10:19 PM >Subject: Re: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. > > >> >> >>Have you got any 1Mb DIPPs?? >> > >> >I have seen SIPPs, but have none of either. What exactly is a DIPP? >> >> A DIPP is another name for SIPP by morons (Like myself) who momentarily >> forgot that SIPP was the correct name. >> >> Anyone have any small 1Mb SIPPs? > >Yes I have quite a few ex 386SX-20 Diskless workstations circa 1993. >Er small? Was there more than one size. >These are the same size as the equivalent simm, and can be converted to same >by CAREFULLY removing the pins and the solder. (Not easy, but I have done >it and made it work on occasion - though only when desperate it's a real >PITA) > >Cheers > >Geoff Roberts > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 16 10:23:49 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. Message-ID: <002f01be881d$2131e620$0100c0a8@fuj03> BTW, it's important that they be soldered on both sides. That's what makes the job difficult. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 9:13 AM Subject: Re: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. >You can solder a SIMM to a 30-pin row of screw-machine socket pins (not >easy, but it works) and end up with connections much superior to what you >normally get with SIPPs. They will not bend as easily and you'll have much >less trouble with the beasties than with normal SIPPs, especially the ones >which have once had a bent pin, because those continue to want to bend. > >Dick >-----Original Message----- >From: Arfon Gryffydd >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 6:57 AM >Subject: Re: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. > > >> >>>>Have you got any 1Mb DIPPs?? >>> >>>I have seen SIPPs, but have none of either. What exactly is a DIPP? >> >>A DIPP is another name for SIPP by morons (Like myself) who momentarily >>forgot that SIPP was the correct name. >> >>Anyone have any small 1Mb SIPPs? >> >>---------------------------------------- >> Tired of Micro$oft??? >> >> Move up to a REAL OS... >>######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # >>#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## >>####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### >>###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### >>##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### >># ###### >> ("LINUX" for those of you >> without fixed-width fonts) >>---------------------------------------- >>Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com >> >>Slackware Mailing List: >>http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html > From clintw at colorado.cirrus.com Fri Apr 16 10:25:10 1999 From: clintw at colorado.cirrus.com (Clint Wolff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. Message-ID: <199904161525.JAA04201@ws2044.colorado.cirrus.com> > > Actually, there was a DIPP package for many of the DRAMs. It was a > single-in-line-looking version of the DIP, except that all the pins were on > one side and they were staggered in their alignment. These were most often > referred to as ZIP's, though I don't know why. The package was somewhat > popular for about 5 years, after which it fell into disuse. > > Dick ZIP == ZigZag Inline Package From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Apr 16 10:28:18 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: City Names In-Reply-To: <001101be87c7$506fd2e0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> References: <199904151701.TAA06803@horus.mch.sni.de> <024701be8772$bc710ea0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990416102818.00914910@207.207.0.212> I csn't help but to get in on this one... >> >I always wondered why Munich sometimes gets shown as Munchen. >> Because that's what the Germans call it? > >Good enough reason. Beats me why it is taught to us as being Munich then. Why do we call it Germany when it's really Deutchland? I know that Cymru is called Wales because of the Saxon word 'wealas' meaning 'foreigner' or 'slave' which is odd because the Saxons were the foreigners. >> > Extras? It's the same characters. Accented. If you think about it, it >> actually helps pronounciation. > >Not really, well, not in English anyway.. Yeah, the phonetic english letters confuse me also. >>Can you explain why English words are >> pronounced the way they are? > >Some I can, others I doubt if Mr. Oxford himself could explain. > >>Like not how they are spelt? > >Indeed, english spelling and grammar is awkward to non native speakers. >Particularly since the rules seem to change depending on the word, in some >cases anyway.. Three reasons... Mutations due to surrounding letters (very much the case in Welsh), Poor and/or lazy pronunciation (i.e. 'spelt' instead of 'spelled') and the introduction of foreign words (i.e. 'fajitas' & 'resume'). >> >all this masculine/feminine/neuter gender and case stuff. Confused the hell out of me. >> m/f/n is no that difficult. Just different from language to language. > >Well, no not really. Simply doesn't exist in English. Everything is um, >neuter I guess, we don't have a term for it that we didn't pinch from >another language actually. >Trying to think of another language that doesn't do gender (in the >linguistic sense), Norwegian is almost that way I think, but Indonesian is >about the only one that is fully ungendered that I can recall. There may >well be others, I am far from being even mildy competent in this area.. Gender! YUCK! What a bad development (IMHO). >> >1) Everybody speaks English. ('Cepting a few migrants/boat people....:^) > >> Now they do... Not in the US. (Which I am not criticizing) >> >3) 240VAC 3 pin sockets are a national standard. >> I think only the English (and Swiss?) are the ones that want to be >> different to the rest of Europe - in this case anyway (there are many >> others). > >What about the mains voltage? Does that vary a lot? We're all 240v 50hz. >(In theory, anyway) 240V was chosen to be the standard to reduce line losses??? Why 50cyc? ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Apr 16 10:31:02 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. In-Reply-To: <002f01be881d$2131e620$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990416103102.009bf660@207.207.0.212> At 09:23 AM 4/16/1999 -0600, you wrote: >BTW, it's important that they be soldered on both sides. That's what makes >the job difficult. How in the world do you do that? Wouldn't they become staggered? ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Apr 16 10:45:59 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. Message-ID: <19990416154559.16181.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > Actually, there was a DIPP package for many of the DRAMs. It was a > single-in-line-looking version of the DIP, except that all the pins were on > one side and they were staggered in their alignment. I have several classic machines that use them, the Amiga 3000 included. > These were most often referred to as ZIP's, though I don't know why. Zigzag Inline Package > The package was somewhat popular for about 5 years, after which it fell > into disuse. They were more fragile than DIP DRAMs (I've broken several pins off over the years), but they did provide much better RAM density over DIPs. If you wanted 4Mb of RAM with 256K parts or 16Mb of RAM with 1Mb parts, the board space for DIPs was enormous. What really killed ZIPs wasn't just the fragile nature of the pins, it was the rise of SIPPs then SIMMs, once the custom sockets became available. You get ZIP-like memory density with very few customer-acccessible interconnects to go wrong. I have a pile of 1Mx1 ZIPs that I don't need (I got a bag of mixed chips and pulled all the 256Kx4's for my A3000). Does anyone out there need some 70 or 80ns 1Mx1 ZIPs? I also have a few *massive* ZIPs that I think are video memory of some kind. I'll have to look up the part number. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 16 11:07:27 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. Message-ID: <003e01be8823$39a06b40$0100c0a8@fuj03> What it amounts to is soldering the "front" of the SIMM to one edge of the pins and soldering the reverse side to the other. if the edge of the SIMM is appropriately close to the pin-strip, it makes a very solid connection, with the loading stresses well distributed. It doesn't stagger anything. These screw-machine single-pin sockets come in plastic strips which keep them aligned. The way I accomplish this sort of thing is plug them into a board which fits their barrel and proceed to solder the connections, end pins first, on each side of the SIMM until the job is finished. It's a lot of work, and not always worth it. I once soldered 4 4MB SIMMs into this arrangement, only to learn that the motherboard I was using wouldn't deal with the 4 MB parts. . . . too bad . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Arfon Gryffydd To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 9:41 AM Subject: Re: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. >At 09:23 AM 4/16/1999 -0600, you wrote: >>BTW, it's important that they be soldered on both sides. That's what makes >>the job difficult. > >How in the world do you do that? Wouldn't they become staggered? > >---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... >######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # >#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## >####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### >###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### >##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### ># ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) >---------------------------------------- >Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > >Slackware Mailing List: >http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 16 11:32:12 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: Afe of CD (was: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He) In-Reply-To: <199904161032.MAA16236@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > Please, Max, do you belive the CD was invented together with the > 486 ? - Just for the records, I had my first (private owned) > CD Drive on a 386-16 MHz. At the office we had an CD connected to > a XT (a genuine PHILIPS audio drive with changed controller to > supply raw CD data to the PC - all work was done by a 4.77 MHz > 8088 :)), while later on most friends used 286 with CD, this > was at a time when 286 _and_ XTs still rueled the (PC) world. > Also there is no reason to hinder a CD from working on any 386 box. > In fact, from todays view it es necersarry to attach a (cheap) CD > if you want to use the 'old' 386. And coincidentally, it was MS/PC - DOS 3.10 that was the first version to have the "network redirector" code necessary to be able to run MSCDEX.EXE. Also, before the days of IDE CD-ROMs, and "Sound-Card interface", there were a lot of bizarre proprietary CD-ROM interfaces. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Fri Apr 16 09:33:01 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: Religious Festivals (was:Re: Fwd: H8 Enthusiasts) Message-ID: <80256755.00506D3B.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > "Kar" is derivated from the Oldhighgerman word of chara/kara with > an meaning of grief/mourning - so the Karwoche is the week of > mourning for Christ / the mourning period. While this word is > no longer in use in German (and no derivate, AFAIK), it is still > present in English as 'care' (Didn't I already mention that English > preserved a lot mor ol German words than German itself ? So learning > English is kind of learning old German.) > > I hope this wil end your life long search for the meaning of Kar. Many thanks. Perhaps one day I'll learn Anglo-saxon. This is apparently rather like learning German... > P.S.: Now solve the riddle of Ostern/Eastern. Oh no, now I'm getting even further off topic! Historically, Christianity has had a habit of placing Christian festivals next to pagan ones so as to help subsume them. A classic example is the winter solstice, which has had Christmas (Weihnachten) dumped on it. But the name of the North European solstice festival, Yule, has survived in many languages' names for Christmas. In the case of the Pascha, the date was based on the Passover - the Jewish festival at the spring equinox. This put in close to pagan equinoctial festivals, and the pagan name, Easter/Ostern, has survived in English and German. The usual explanation is that it derives from the name of a pagan goddess, Aostre. Good enough? Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Fri Apr 16 09:35:33 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality Message-ID: <80256755.0050A85E.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> attitude is part of a larger problem. Personally, I do not like to damage >> anything, but once in a while, I like to have some fun. If I didn't do > > You know, I like to have fun as well. But my fun consists of taking a > pile of parts 'beyond economic repair' and getting them working again. Or > taking a few bits of scrap metal and learning to machine them. Or > designing Yet Another Useless Interface. In other words creating something. Hear, hear! > I really don't understand this love of breaking things. Nor do I, even though I occasionally experience it. But I try to suppress my love of braking things on the rare occasions when it does appear, because creating things is so much more fun. Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Fri Apr 16 09:36:58 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <80256755.0050C91C.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >>Hang on. I don't claim to be fluent in C, so I was keeping out of this debate, >>but this is well weird! As I understand it, you don't have to prototype >>anything in C - or shouldn't have to. The only C compiler I've ever used >>doesn't even SUPPORT prototypes! > > I'm just not good with jargon. I meant declaring. In perl, everything is > dynamically allocated. You don't do "int foo; foo=5;", you just do > "$foo=5;". Oh, I see. In that case I agree. Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Fri Apr 16 09:55:18 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: City Names Message-ID: <80256755.005277BA.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> > > Just back from Warschau (Poland) - Thanks. And BTW: since Karfreitag >> >> > Where? Oh, you mean Warszawa. Warsaw. ;-) >> >> (You're just lucky that's one of the few polish words without lots of >> accents etc.) Hmm do you want to start another War ? ;) >> >> If you live in a city like Munich you learn about the ways >> of naming a city - and of coure how senseless it is to >> belive in calling a thin worldwide with one single name. Hmm. I generally try and name a city in a language that is spoken in that city - so I am usually careful to write Muenchen, Nuernberg, Braunschweig for Munich, Nuremberg and Brunswick. But I admit that I would probably simply have written Warsaw for Warszawa. The main difficulty is when the language doesn't use Latin characters. I wouldn't even know how to write "Bangkok" in Thai, although I think I could manage "Taipei" in Chinese. (But Taiwanese place names should be transliterated according to the Wade-Giles system still used in Taiwan, rather than in PinYin as on the mainland) Polish is one of the less bad languages for accents - Czech is far worse, to the extent that in the UK we generally use Polish spellings... > Well, maybe you could explain it to me, I'm afraid I don't get it. :^) > I always wondered why Munich sometimes gets shown as Munchen. I can't do > those funny accented characters, (umlauts?) even if I knew what they meant, > just as well, most people around here have enough difficulty with 26 > letters. I don't know how you guys cope with all the extras, not to mention > all this masculine/feminine/neuter gender and case stuff. Confused the hell > out of me. Umlauts are reasonable enough. Gramatical gender is an anachronism that should be abolished as soon as possible. But English spellings (whenther British or American) have been in sore need of reform since before they were standardised... > Good things about living in a single island country that's larger than most > of Europe. > > 1) Everybody speaks English. ('Cepting a few migrants/boat people....:^) > They expose kids to other languages at school, but theres is no real > need/pressure to learn one to a level where conversation is possible. > (Who we gonna practice on/talk to?) > Some do learn Indonesian or Japanese, but most don't bother. What? Have we found in the Aussies a nation who are even worse at foreign languages than the British? I never thought I'd live to see the day! ;-) > 2) You don't need a passport to drive across the road. Or travel 2000km for > that matter. Well, we're like that in the UK, except that the island is smaller. > 3) 240VAC 3 pin sockets are a national standard. That doesn't seem to have helped us... > CNN is about the nearest I get. Upside is that I can now read most of the > Cyrillic alphabet after 4 weeks of watching snippets of Serbian TV news > subtitles! > (Well I can read Belgrad(e) Pristina and Novi Sad anyway) Watch out! The Serbian alphabet is as different from the Russian alphabet (the de facto standard for Cyrillic) as the Polish alphabet is from the English alphabet... (I have somewhere a Yugoslavian banknote. Everything is written on it in four local languages - two using Cyrillic and two using Latin characters. The languages are similar enough that AFAIK nothing needs to be said more than three times...) Philip. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 16 14:28:38 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: Power Frequency In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990416102818.00914910@207.207.0.212> References: <001101be87c7$506fd2e0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <199904161729.TAA29968@horus.mch.sni.de> > >> >3) 240VAC 3 pin sockets are a national standard. > >> I think only the English (and Swiss?) are the ones that want to be > >> different to the rest of Europe - in this case anyway (there are many > >> others). > >What about the mains voltage? Does that vary a lot? We're all 240v 50hz. > >(In theory, anyway) > 240V was chosen to be the standard to reduce line losses??? Why 50cyc? Short answer: Why not. Or: Why 60 ? Long Answer: A willingfull decision of a single person (or group) in the past. Lets see: If you want AC (usefull to allow up/downstepping of Voltage) some 12-15 Hz are minimum. Also, if you want to have a continious electric lighting, the frequency should be above ~40Hz. On the other hand, as higher the frequency gets, as harder it is to build usable distribution systems - also (more important) for higher frequencies you need faster spinning generators (machines at some 500 rpm have been hightech around the turn of the century) with higher cost to build and maintain or more dense packing to get more coils be powered within one turn - and as we know, dense packing is a development problem - when a technology is new, the structures are big. Taking this into account, usable frequencies for public power systems have been in the 40-100 Hz range - now the only task was to pick one. The 60 Hz decison might have been based on the idea to continue the line: one minute is 1/60th of a hour, and a second is 1/60th of a minute, and a cycle is 1/60th of a second ... while the 50Hz idea was based on geting a simple number, (serving the needed purpose) with a usable division within the decimal system. In fact any number could have been involved. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 16 14:28:38 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: Language and Power Frequency In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990416102818.00914910@207.207.0.212> References: <001101be87c7$506fd2e0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <199904161729.TAA29972@horus.mch.sni.de> > I csn't help but to get in on this one... > >> >I always wondered why Munich sometimes gets shown as Munchen. > >> Because that's what the Germans call it? > >Good enough reason. Beats me why it is taught to us as being Munich then. Now, Munich has a lot of different names, like most old cities. Over the centuries the people developed their own name as they needed to name the city lets say for trading purposes. Also the name changed thru the centuries. Some of these chages depend on available information technology(!). Somewhen in the 11th century the name was Muninsch(n) (hard to write down a sound without having the propper letters :() But as used back in those days, paper was expensive, writing was expensive so the writers tend to leave out letters. Also every writer had his own code (rules) for writing a sound (word) - for example, the usage of c, s, ch, sh and sch was common for sch (English sh). Further the language of the inteligencia was Latin, so it had to be translated. Depending on these old source, Munich was written Munichen, Munich, Muni, MNCH. As you might see, the English term is derivated from one of these version, althrough, even in English the sound, associated with these letters has changed. For other Languages, they have also adopted this pelling, but with a complete different sounf, like in French (Munich), or they did evolve into their own spelling. Some Examples: Munich (English) Munich (French) Monaco (Italian) Mnichov (Czech) And not to forget, our own language: Minga (Bavarian :) > Why do we call it Germany when it's really Deutchland? Pronounced Do-itsh-laand (?) Simple, Very Simple: The language is 'Deutsch' and the name implies just: 'Country of the Deutsch speaking' - Mayge cruel for todays nationalism influenced idea, but the idea of nations and areas designed for nations is a bit alien to German history - Maybe because evolved from an empire spanning most parts of the (usefull to considere) world - I don't now. Also some 1000+ years in the past, Empires and people where different entities. The now used term Germany (and Germany) is quite new - until some 2-300 years ago, the usage of Deutsch/Dutch included all the German Lands, from the North sea until the Mediteran sea was, but due political changes the term was restrict the Netherlands, and do come up with a different name German/Germans/Germany was established. In fact, this process did continue until the turn of _this_ century, until the name was standard. > >> > Extras? It's the same characters. Accented. If you think about it, it > >> actually helps pronounciation. > >Not really, well, not in English anyway.. > Yeah, the phonetic english letters confuse me also. No, not accented - letters like U"/A"/O" are real basic letters, jot just a morification (like long or shortpronounciation). The German language contains some 28(30) letters and 35 sounds 24 Sounds displayed on the 26 Latin Letters (no Y and V = F) the 3 Umlaute, the 'sharp' s, ch, sch, eu, au, tz/tsch, st and ck (maybe also th, but this sound is almost vanished from todays standard German). With the exeptions of these 7 additional combinations, all german letters just represent ONE single sound - there is (basicly) NO modifications. German IS spoken as it is spelled. Unlike English, where the pronounciation of one letter might differ within a context AND one sound might be encoded in many different ways (in this sense German is a lot more computer friendly than english) > >>Can you explain why English words are > >> pronounced the way they are? > >Some I can, others I doubt if Mr. Oxford himself could explain. > >>Like not how they are spelt? > >Indeed, english spelling and grammar is awkward to non native speakers. > >Particularly since the rules seem to change depending on the word, in some > >cases anyway.. > Three reasons... Mutations due to surrounding letters (very much the case > in Welsh), Poor and/or lazy pronunciation (i.e. 'spelt' instead of > 'spelled') and the introduction of foreign words (i.e. 'fajitas' & 'resume'). That are some explanations why spelling is changing, but the basic problem, and his basic question is why more than 26 Letters, and the answer is simple, because the there are more sounds than letters. The idea behind German is that every sound should have his specific and unique encoding, unlike languages like English or French, where encoding is random and historical based. Nice Fact, if you look at some non-german languges that have been encoded using Latin letters, you might see the German influence - especialy in Languages like Polish, Czech, Hungarian or even the Latin based Serbocroatian script (most codesystem has been formed while under German rule, or from persons with a German background (like the actual Czech script). All these scripts follow the German one-sound/one-letter rule and add a specific number of letters (expressed as basic Latin letters with additional marks) to represent their language sounds. You could even see the progress and 'age' of the usage of this system. Generaly, the 'younger' systems use the idea more strict than the older. For example, in Polish, the 'tsh' sound is expresses as 'cz', while the Czech did use the same system, but reformed their rules to use a c with a Caron (an inverted Circuimflex (ASCII 5E)) Serbocroatian with Latin letters as developed in/for Croatia (opposed to the cyrillic coding as used in Serbia) not only adds marks to some letters, they also did define some digraphs - combinations, that are treated as single letters, althrough written as two seperated - to match specific cyrillic letters. These digraphs include even again marked letters :). Also, when sorting these digraphs are treated as special letters in acording positions (the Czech also include one digrahp, the ch - a sound like a special h, ans cansequently sorted after h rather than between c and d). Sorting is also an interesting field for historic traces - for example, Basicly the German rule is sorting as equivalents or 'pictures' (if not possible as equivalent), oposed to sorting as additions. Example: In german A" is translated to ae before sorting, if you want to get the 'real' order. If this is not possible, A" is sorted between A and B - this 'picture' sorting is also the way used in French or Spanish. Other Languages, within the German language family (which includes English - oh BTW, English has a lot of additional letters :) sort their additional caracters after the Z (for example Swedish or Norwegian). Now, the interesting historic fact is if you look around: some Languages treat their letters seperate, some with special rules, and some like in Germany. > >> >all this masculine/feminine/neuter gender and case stuff. Confused the > hell out of me. > >> m/f/n is no that difficult. Just different from language to language. > >Well, no not really. Simply doesn't exist in English. Everything is um, > >neuter I guess, we don't have a term for it that we didn't pinch from > >another language actually. > >Trying to think of another language that doesn't do gender (in the > >linguistic sense), Norwegian is almost that way I think, but Indonesian is > >about the only one that is fully ungendered that I can recall. There may > >well be others, I am far from being even mildy competent in this area.. English got also gender specificas, but most of them are faded in modern, US influenced English. Also, If you have problems with that idea, never ever try to learn polish - you have not only to obey gender when refering to persons or to insert the right article, you also have to change almost every second word - every verb is different, depending on the gender of the speaking person, or the addressed person, or even depending on the gender of a thing ... BTW trivia fact: Gender is Language dependant, even if looking at two languages of the same language family, using the same rules: In Standard German 'butter' (you know the yummy stuff below the Wurst on your Butterbrot) is female, but in Bavarian, butter is male :) > Gender! YUCK! What a bad development (IMHO). Got it's advantages :) (private opinion) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From gentry at zk3.dec.com Fri Apr 16 12:38:57 1999 From: gentry at zk3.dec.com (Megan Gentry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: Another item to identify Message-ID: <199904161738.AA13102@kamlia.zk3.dec.com> Can anyone tell me what a KC341-B Microprocessor series Monitor/Control panel is? (Other than the obvious). It is a DEC item -- it appears to have the standard switches for a computer front panel, but for a 14-bit wide machine... I found two of them in my archives, still packed in their boxes. One has a cable which connects to it and which ends in a paddle board for plugging into a DEC backplane. I also have a print set for it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Apr 16 12:44:12 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: Language and Power Frequency In-Reply-To: <199904161729.TAA29972@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <3.0.3.32.19990416102818.00914910@207.207.0.212> <001101be87c7$506fd2e0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990416124412.009dcb60@207.207.0.212> >> Why do we call it Germany when it's really Deutchland? > >Pronounced Do-itsh-laand (?) > >Simple, Very Simple: The language is 'Deutsch' and the name implies just: >'Country of the Deutsch speaking' - Mayge cruel for todays nationalism >influenced idea, but the idea of nations and areas designed for nations >is a bit alien to German history - Maybe because evolved from an empire >spanning most parts of the (usefull to considere) world - I don't now. >Also some 1000+ years in the past, Empires and people where different >entities. > >The now used term Germany (and Germany) is quite new - until some >2-300 years ago, the usage of Deutsch/Dutch included all the German >Lands, from the North sea until the Mediteran sea was, but due >political changes the term was restrict the Netherlands, and do >come up with a different name German/Germans/Germany was established. >In fact, this process did continue until the turn of _this_ century, >until the name was standard. Right... Uh, so why do we call it Germany again??? (Who came up with "German" and why? Why not say "Dutch" for the Netherlands and "Deutch" for Germany? (They sound different to me)) ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Apr 16 12:46:26 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: Power Frequency In-Reply-To: <199904161729.TAA29968@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <3.0.3.32.19990416102818.00914910@207.207.0.212> <001101be87c7$506fd2e0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990416124626.009df100@207.207.0.212> At 07:29 PM 4/16/1999 +1, you wrote: >> >> >3) 240VAC 3 pin sockets are a national standard. >> >> I think only the English (and Swiss?) are the ones that want to be >> >> different to the rest of Europe - in this case anyway (there are many >> >> others). > >> >What about the mains voltage? Does that vary a lot? We're all 240v 50hz. >> >(In theory, anyway) > >> 240V was chosen to be the standard to reduce line losses??? Why 50cyc? > >Short answer: >Why not. >Or: Why 60 ? Short answer: Smaller transformers and less copper used. >Long Answer: >A willingfull decision of a single person (or group) in the past. >Lets see: If you want AC (usefull to allow up/downstepping of Voltage) >some 12-15 Hz are minimum. Also, if you want to have a continious >electric lighting, the frequency should be above ~40Hz. On the other >hand, as higher the frequency gets, as harder it is to build usable >distribution systems - also (more important) for higher frequencies >you need faster spinning generators (machines at some 500 rpm have >been hightech around the turn of the century) with higher cost to build >and maintain or more dense packing to get more coils be powered within >one turn - and as we know, dense packing is a development problem - when >a technology is new, the structures are big. Taking this into account, >usable frequencies for public power systems have been in the 40-100 Hz >range - now the only task was to pick one. The 60 Hz decison might have >been based on the idea to continue the line: one minute is 1/60th of >a hour, and a second is 1/60th of a minute, and a cycle is 1/60th of >a second ... while the 50Hz idea was based on geting a simple number, >(serving the needed purpose) with a usable division within the decimal >system. ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Apr 16 13:01:33 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: <80256755.0050A85E.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: > > Hear, hear! > > > > I really don't understand this love of breaking things. > Then you were never eleven. Cheers John PS: I *was*, three years ago...... From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 16 15:32:04 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: Religious Festivals (was:Re: Fwd: H8 Enthusiasts) In-Reply-To: <80256755.00506D3B.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <199904161833.UAA02443@horus.mch.sni.de> > Perhaps one day I'll learn Anglo-saxon. This is apparently rather like learning > German... Or just combine both :) > > P.S.: Now solve the riddle of Ostern/Eastern. > Oh no, now I'm getting even further off topic! Historically, Christianity has > had a habit of placing Christian festivals next to pagan ones so as to help > subsume them. A classic example is the winter solstice, which has had Christmas > (Weihnachten) dumped on it. But the name of the North European solstice > festival, Yule, has survived in many languages' names for Christmas. > In the case of the Pascha, the date was based on the Passover - the Jewish > festival at the spring equinox. This put in close to pagan equinoctial > festivals, and the pagan name, Easter/Ostern, has survived in English and > German. The usual explanation is that it derives from the name of a pagan > goddess, Aostre. > Good enough? Nop - missed - or to be correct, you name one very broad used theorie, which needs a lot of 'accidents' to create the meaning. The Passah is of course the base in biblical sense, and for most romanic languages also the root of the name (french: paques). These God/Goddess theory is used in some variation, there is even one to find a trace to the Roman name for sunset: Aurora. But in fact, most theories can be traced to the 18th centurie, where such combinations (Goddess or Latin) was 'hip'. Base of the name is the old Germanic word 'ausa' (pour water) and 'austr' (pouring water). Derivated from that the word Ostern points to one central idea in the christian ideology: Babtizing of the people - in this ritus, the highes Festival with the single highest ritual is performed. Also the christian baptism tradition did took over a pre christian ritus: 'vatni ausa' (be poured with water) - a ritus where children have been named when they got their 'first' bath - the Christian tradition of baptising children is based on this 'aquisition' - before that, baptizeing happened only to adults. This Theorie is also supported if you take different slavic names for Ostern/Eastern into account. Further reading (German): 'Ostern – Geschichte eines Wortes' from Ju"rgen Udolph (C. Winter Universita"tsverlag Heidelberg,ISBN 3-8253-0866-9) Gruss H. P.S.: I thought you would give the 'english' explanation, based one Beda's speculations that the name is derivated from the old english name for april Eosturmonath (Aeh, did you say you want to learn Anglo-saxon ? Stay with German - thats equivalent :), that should have been based on the name of a goddess (This could only come into the mind of a latin influenced Monk). -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 16 15:32:04 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: City Names In-Reply-To: <80256755.005277BA.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <199904161833.UAA02446@horus.mch.sni.de> Date sent: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:55:18 +0100 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Philip.Belben@pgen.com To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: OT: City Names > > > >> > > Just back from Warschau (Poland) - Thanks. And BTW: since Karfreitag > >> > Where? Oh, you mean Warszawa. Warsaw. ;-) > >> (You're just lucky that's one of the few polish words without lots of > >> accents etc.) Hmm do you want to start another War ? ;) > >> If you live in a city like Munich you learn about the ways > >> of naming a city - and of coure how senseless it is to > >> belive in calling a thin worldwide with one single name. > Hmm. I generally try and name a city in a language that is spoken in that city > - so I am usually careful to write Muenchen, Nuernberg, Braunschweig for Munich, > Nuremberg and Brunswick. But I admit that I would probably simply have written (in the case of Munich and Nuremberg they are in fact just literal usage of old spellings :) > Warsaw for Warszawa. :)) Thats a PC way without a real goal. For example, you write Muenchen, but it is Mu"nchen .. so you still can't reach - also , if you speak to let's say you neightbor - will you use Munich or Muenchen ? I guess Munich - so where's the idea (please don't get me wrong, I ceer for your effort, and like it a lot, but in my personal opinion it useless - maybe I'm just a bit sensible in this question we have to much PC type thinking - again, not personal, I know that your intension is honest and that this is not one of this PC stuff things). For example, I've been in Warzsawa (Did I foret to tell you ? :) to do an analysis of a SIEMENS susidary for implementing a service management system. They have a network of partner companies throughout Poland (Polen, Polska) operating in different cities. While the talks (mainly in German) I used the German names (most time), and the polish guys used sometimes their Polish names, sometimes the German names. We had no communication problem at all. > Polish is one of the less bad languages for accents - Czech is far worse, to the > extent that in the UK we generally use Polish spellings... Please ? I can't see a big difference (I'm about to implement both systems in our Mainframe software *) - the Polish have 9 additional characters, while the Czech have 14. I guess, if you use your 'polish' notation, you use the German way of writing slavic languages :) - otherwise you need more letters. But you're right - the Czech did a complete script reform to eliminate all dual character combinations but one. > > Well, maybe you could explain it to me, I'm afraid I don't get it. :^) > > I always wondered why Munich sometimes gets shown as Munchen. I can't do > > those funny accented characters, (umlauts?) even if I knew what they meant, > > just as well, most people around here have enough difficulty with 26 > > letters. I don't know how you guys cope with all the extras, not to mention > > all this masculine/feminine/neuter gender and case stuff. Confused the hell > > out of me. > Umlauts are reasonable enough. Gramatical gender is an anachronism that should > be abolished as soon as possible. Why ? > What? Have we found in the Aussies a nation who are even worse at foreign > languages than the British? I never thought I'd live to see the day! ;-) Maybe, since if he counts in large, non primary english speaking parts of australia just as english ? (The experiance of driving some hunderts of kilometers thru the outback and then getting 'Schwarzbraun ist die Haselnuss' as the first song on the first radiostation is like beeing hit by a 1000 ton hammer) > > CNN is about the nearest I get. Upside is that I can now read most of the > > Cyrillic alphabet after 4 weeks of watching snippets of Serbian TV news > > subtitles! > > (Well I can read Belgrad(e) Pristina and Novi Sad anyway) > Watch out! The Serbian alphabet is as different from the Russian alphabet (the > de facto standard for Cyrillic) as the Polish alphabet is from the English > alphabet... AFAIK only 5 additional letters (DJE, JE, LJE, TSCHE and DSCHE) but you're right. > (I have somewhere a Yugoslavian banknote. Everything is written on it in four > local languages - two using Cyrillic and two using Latin characters. The > languages are similar enough that AFAIK nothing needs to be said more than three > times...) 3 Language 4 scripts: Slovenian (Latin) Serbocroatian (Latin) Serbocroatian (Kyrillic) Macedonian (Cyrillic) Servus Hans (*) This is a kind of a once a lifetime job ... or when do you get a chance to develop a new characterset system :)) The task is to enhance an 20 year old (still new releases and development) EBCDIC mainframesystem to support not only some umlauts, but rather all main European languages _and_ some foreign scripts like Cyrillic, Greek or Arabic - I havn't had so much fun since a long time. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 16 15:44:13 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: References: <199904150638.CAA09577@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199904161845.UAA03011@horus.mch.sni.de> > > I have been fascinated by the destructive angst of North American kids and > >have equivicated it to powerlessness and a reaction against a materialistic > >society but have still watched in awe as some project kids gleefully reduce > >an auto to meaningless junk. If it was my own kids I would kick shit out of > >them and realise I knew them not. > My rising familiarity with technology past and present leads me to > question whether it wasn't meaningless junk before...seriously, if these > kids didn't own the car, they have a bigger problem, and should probably > get a sound beating. If it was their car, I can quite understand their > desire to release their exasperation. Isn't it better to smash a car than > a person? I guess you have lived a good life, and so have I, but even I > sometimes feel like nothing matters anymore, I'm so frustrated. And for > people living in the projects, it must be so much more serious. I can understand nothing, I'll just see people without proper 'education' (just learning numbers and names are not education). If s.o. is able to destroy a thing 'just for fun' the barrier is low to hurt people - He hasn't learned to controll himself anyway. No matter how much frustration. Loosing controll is not tolerable in any circumstances. > For one thing, home-baked bread is much less boring than factory-made > bread. Just BTW - speaking of home-made bread: Do you refer to this bread machine stuff over in the US - I can't see any quality in there - no difference - I'll prefere German Factory bread before almost any US creation (with an exception - A hod dog bun with a frank or any kind of Habmurger :)) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From william at ans.net Fri Apr 16 14:00:50 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: City Names In-Reply-To: <199904161833.UAA02446@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn. If people want to send _way_ off topic stuff to this list, my requests are articles about ice fishing, reprints of old Home & Garden magazines, or hardcore pornography. William Donzelli william@ans.net From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Apr 16 14:10:37 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: Another item to identify Message-ID: <990416151037.20c006f5@trailing-edge.com> >Can anyone tell me what a > > KC341-B > Microprocessor series Monitor/Control panel > >is? (Other than the obvious). It's the bench-top console for the M7341 microprocessor. The KC341-A was the rack-mount console. >It is a DEC item -- it appears to have the standard switches >for a computer front panel, but for a 14-bit wide machine... >I found two of them in my archives, still packed in their >boxes. One would presume, then, that you've got a couple M7341's in your archives, too :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 16 16:15:39 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <002c01be8632$4268be00$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <199904161916.VAA04047@horus.mch.sni.de> Alison, Dick, thank you, I havn't had so much fun for month. If there is an award for the most historic valuable participation on this list you're my personal number one. Achtung: This is _NOT_ ironical. I realy love your mails - Just reading all of this I felt almost 20 years younger - I was involved _very_ heavyly into the Z80/8080 vs. 6502 discusion back then - weh had a circle of engeneers where one part wher 8085/Z80 advocates, whie some (like me) where 6502 boreheads. > Quite so, and I'd still be waiting today to get my old 6502 to run WordStar > under CP/M . . . I may support my 8080 emulator for the KIM if you want - you just need a bit of perhipheral hardware :) Speed should be no problem: In my measures back than I found it equivalent to an 100 kHz 8080. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 16 16:31:22 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: Round 98 (was Re: 6502 vs Z80, round 97) In-Reply-To: References: <19990413024805.14871.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199904161932.VAA04678@horus.mch.sni.de> > >> One of the things I have noticed is that great similarity exists between a > >> couple of instruction sets, the 6502 and the Sparc, and the IBM 360 and > >> 68000. Kind of the classics of RISC and CISC, and I love them both. > >Um, what are you smoking, and where can I get some? :-) > >Having programmed all four of those processors, I would not be willing > >to concede much similarity between any two of the four. > Maybe you forgot to enhale, Could this be a common problem over at your side of the pond ? > there aren't more than a handfull of different > instructions between the pairs I mention. I haven't programmed the Sparc, > but I did spend about two weeks testing the feasibility of porting a 65C02 > assembly language program to the Sparc, and it looked very very good. I did a port of an 8080 code fragment to a /370 class CPU, and it also looked quite good and straight foreward, althrough there is no simirarity between the CPUs at all - so where is the point ? I'm not 100% shure for the SPARC, but AFAIK it, there are no similarities beyound anything common to most processors. The same is especialy true for the 68K/360 pair - just to start with one of the most important features of the 68K: Addressing modes - the 360 got just ONE (base+offset[+index]) not to mention increment or decrement instructions at all. And of course as a result no stack! Hey, nothing against the /360/370 system I found that this singe addressing mode is flexible enough to get any result needed as easy as with an 68K processor with his dozens or so modi - but just not compatible in any way. > As > for the 360/68k, IBM made a varient of the 68k that ran 360 code native. Thats not an argument for either side, I don't know the IBM solution, but in the mid 80s SIEMENS got a similar machine, the PC-2000 (a NSC 16016 Multibus Unix system with a /370ish board), based on a 68020 with new microcode to emulate a X4 like CPU (a /370 compatible CPU from SIEMENS with a lot of enhancements, like bit field operations or a some stack like instructions (no, no push or pop, but rather some kind of queuemanagement to enqueue and dequeue structures and follow (almost) unlimited levels of indirection)). But this machine was no longer any 68K - just the silicon has been the same. So, where is your point of similarity ? Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 16 14:39:13 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: Another item to identify In-Reply-To: <199904161738.AA13102@kamlia.zk3.dec.com> Message-ID: > > Can anyone tell me what a > > KC341-B > Microprocessor series Monitor/Control panel > > is? (Other than the obvious). > > It is a DEC item -- it appears to have the standard switches > for a computer front panel, but for a 14-bit wide machine... > > I found two of them in my archives, still packed in their > boxes. One has a cable which connects to it and which ends > in a paddle board for plugging into a DEC backplane. I also > have a print set for it... > if it's what I tink it is that was to pannel for a 800 powered micro that dec sold in teh mid 70s. I'd have to see it for sure. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 16 14:48:25 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <199904161916.VAA04047@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: > I realy love your mails - Just reading all of this I felt almost > 20 years younger - I was involved _very_ heavyly into the Z80/8080 > vs. 6502 discusion back then - weh had a circle of engeneers where > one part wher 8085/Z80 advocates, whie some (like me) where 6502 > boreheads. Actually I'm not done with it. just have the time. The fundemental problem is not really which is faster, I think for the real world applications they are likely close but the arguement is flawed. It misstates the z80 and 6502 timing vs real useage. What's funny is I have a kim one I can run and a z80 SBC for comparison. Allison From max82 at surfree.com Fri Apr 16 13:53:53 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: Afe of CD (was: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >Also, before the days of IDE CD-ROMs, and "Sound-Card interface", there >were a lot of bizarre proprietary CD-ROM interfaces. Yes, I've even owned a huge external drive for a while, I mailed it to someone on this list. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From max82 at surfree.com Fri Apr 16 13:59:34 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: City Names In-Reply-To: <80256755.005277BA.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Apr 1999 Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: >Watch out! The Serbian alphabet is as different from the Russian alphabet (the >de facto standard for Cyrillic) as the Polish alphabet is from the English >alphabet... It's not terribly different. I can read the captions as they are and get the meaning. I can even read www.politika.co.yu, and understand every few words. I don't have a Yugoslav dictionary and thus can't get the rest of them. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 16 17:02:21 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: References: <199904161916.VAA04047@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199904162003.WAA05812@horus.mch.sni.de> > > I realy love your mails - Just reading all of this I felt almost > > 20 years younger - I was involved _very_ heavyly into the Z80/8080 > > vs. 6502 discusion back then - weh had a circle of engeneers where > > one part wher 8085/Z80 advocates, whie some (like me) where 6502 > > boreheads. > Actually I'm not done with it. just have the time. The fundemental > problem is not really which is faster, I think for the real world > applications they are likely close but the arguement is flawed. It > misstates the z80 and 6502 timing vs real useage. > What's funny is I have a kim one I can run and a z80 SBC for comparison. I remember, around 1978/9 some articles in a German magazine calles Funkschau (primary a radio / electronics magazine, but they added _four_ pages of uP informations) about the same thing - in one issue some guy showed that a Z80 could do a specific task faster than a 6502, while in the next issue anoter man just proved that the 6502 code could be optimated to run even faster and so on... Gruss H. Maybe I should do some magazinepiledives :) -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From max82 at surfree.com Fri Apr 16 14:16:17 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: <199904161845.UAA03011@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Hans Franke wrote: >anyway. No matter how much frustration. Loosing controll is not >tolerable in any circumstances. You talk as if people were designed to fit into the western 'rational/romantic' framework of behavior. This framework approaches the truth, but sometimes they separate. Surely, you've lost control at one point or another: my smashing the machines wasn't really a loss of control, it was pretty much voluntary. The smashing of cars isn't losing control: it is just that these people are so frustrated that they don't care anymore. I know that it's difficult to sympathize with feelings that you aren't experiencing, but try anyway. >Just BTW - speaking of home-made bread: Do you refer to this >bread machine stuff over in the US - I can't see any quality I don't recall eating bread machine bread. I'm sure that you've tasted the soft sliced white sponges that bear the name of 'bread' around here. I haven't eaten those for a long time, I always eat real bread made somewhat in keeping with Slavic/Russian recipies, made in a New York factory. It may not be as good as bread in Europe, but it's better than what most people eat. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From max82 at surfree.com Fri Apr 16 14:22:03 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: Signal detection Message-ID: Hi, Could anyone tell me how a radio detects signals vs. static? There is a little gauge on my radio that moves depending on the amount of noise vs. signal. I would guess that the digitally tuned radios that skip over the frequencies that are pure static work in the same way. What is this way? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 16 15:29:37 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: Signal detection In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 16, 99 03:22:03 pm Message-ID: <199904162029.NAA12592@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 848 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990416/7ceeadc8/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Apr 16 15:29:23 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: Signal detection Message-ID: <990416162923.20c006f5@trailing-edge.com> >Could anyone tell me how a radio detects signals vs. static? There is a >little gauge on my radio that moves depending on the amount of noise vs. >signal. I would guess that the digitally tuned radios that skip over the >frequencies that are pure static work in the same way. What is this way? Generally the gauge is a reading of the AGC (automatic gain control) level being applied by the radio's IF. There are many other ways to derive this signal, but this is the most common one. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 16 17:30:32 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: Signal detection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199904162031.WAA06755@horus.mch.sni.de> > Could anyone tell me how a radio detects signals vs. static? There is a > little gauge on my radio that moves depending on the amount of noise vs. > signal. I would guess that the digitally tuned radios that skip over the > frequencies that are pure static work in the same way. What is this way? What about signal amplitude ? The signal is just 'louder' than the noise ... Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From max82 at surfree.com Fri Apr 16 14:31:36 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: Signal detection In-Reply-To: <990416162923.20c006f5@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Apr 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >Generally the gauge is a reading of the AGC (automatic gain control) >level being applied by the radio's IF. There are many other ways to derive >this signal, but this is the most common one. How is this AGC level derived, and how is it compared to the signal? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 16 15:50:42 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <000801be884a$cc824740$0100c0a8@fuj03> Since we all see to have so much time on our hands . . . perhaps it would be amusing to attempt to write the SAME logic in the SAME way on each processor, then compare to see which is faster. THEN turn around and try to improve the implementation of this logic to see which is easier to speed up, and perhaps see which has the greatest cost in terms of memory usage, etc. It's truly a retrocomputing exercise, as neither processor is "still around" in the sense of mainstream applications, or even as an "active" product. I guess that qualifies it as an extended topic in this forum. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 2:00 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >> I realy love your mails - Just reading all of this I felt almost >> 20 years younger - I was involved _very_ heavyly into the Z80/8080 >> vs. 6502 discusion back then - weh had a circle of engeneers where >> one part wher 8085/Z80 advocates, whie some (like me) where 6502 >> boreheads. > >Actually I'm not done with it. just have the time. The fundemental >problem is not really which is faster, I think for the real world >applications they are likely close but the arguement is flawed. It >misstates the z80 and 6502 timing vs real useage. > >What's funny is I have a kim one I can run and a z80 SBC for comparison. > > >Allison > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 16 13:29:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: <199904160106.VAA04221@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Apr 15, 99 09:07:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2618 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990416/3643e7c9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 16 13:59:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward? In-Reply-To: <19990415.232254.155.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at Apr 15, 99 11:22:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2422 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990416/51faa5d6/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 16 16:04:55 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: City Names In-Reply-To: <024701be8772$bc710ea0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Hans Franke > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Sent: Friday, April 16, 1999 3:31 AM > Subject: Re: OT: City Names > > > > > > Just back from Warschau (Poland) - Thanks. And BTW: since Karfreitag > > > > > Where? Oh, you mean Warszawa. Warsaw. ;-) > > > > (You're just lucky that's one of the few polish words without lots of > > accents etc.) Hmm do you want to start another War ? ;) > > > > If you live in a city like Munich you learn about the ways > > of naming a city - and of coure how senseless it is to > > belive in calling a thin worldwide with one single name. > > Well, maybe you could explain it to me, I'm afraid I don't get it. :^) > I always wondered why Munich sometimes gets shown as Munchen. I can't do > those funny accented characters, (umlauts?) even if I knew what they meant, > just as well, most people around here have enough difficulty with 26 > letters. I don't know how you guys cope with all the extras, not to mention > all this masculine/feminine/neuter gender and case stuff. Confused the hell > out of me. > > > > > to find out that I had no Swiss power adaptor at hand (thy use a > > > > different connector)... > > Good things about living in a single island country that's larger than most > of Europe. > > 1) Everybody speaks English. ('Cepting a few migrants/boat people....:^) English? I thought you chaps spoke "Strine". At least that's what a former neighbor who came from there acknowledged. He allowed as how folks in the east and west have difficulty in communicating :) - don > They expose kids to other languages at school, but theres is no real > need/pressure to learn one to a level where conversation is possible. > (Who we gonna practice on/talk to?) > Some do learn Indonesian or Japanese, but most don't bother. > 2) You don't need a passport to drive across the road. Or travel 2000km for > that matter. > 3) 240VAC 3 pin sockets are a national standard. > > Disadvantages are mostly that we can't get feel of other European cultures > without flying a few thousand miles. I can't drive to another country. I > sometimes envy you guys for that, heck I don't even have a passport, there's > nowhere for me to use without an air ticket. I'd love to travel, Europe, > the USA etc, but on my income, it's unlikely I will ever get overseas, and I > don't have the kind of job or work for a company that would need me to do > so. I could probably manage a trip to Indonesia one day, (about the same > distance as Sydney to Perth) but the tropics don't really attract me, it > gets hot enough around here.;^) > CNN is about the nearest I get. Upside is that I can now read most of the > Cyrillic alphabet after 4 weeks of watching snippets of Serbian TV news > subtitles! > (Well I can read Belgrad(e) Pristina and Novi Sad anyway) > > Cheers > > Geoff Roberts > VK5KDR > Computer Systems Manager > Saint Marks College > Port Pirie, South Australia > geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 16 16:08:04 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: 8" drive on a pc controller In-Reply-To: <002801be87c7$af22fce0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Please forgive my interloping, here, but my SHUGART and Siemens SD 8" drives > are spec'd for 6 ms step rate, and the double-headed types for 3 ms. It's > really best (mechanically) to step these babies as fast as they will go, and > it's quieter too. > > Dick Yup! I just checked the specs on my Mitsubishi and it is specced at 3ms also. It would have to make it quieter! - don > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Maslin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Thursday, April 15, 1999 9:41 PM > Subject: Re: 8" drive on a pc controller > > > >On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > >> > > Shouldn't you gentlemen be considering, instead of which format, at > >> what > >> > > kind of DRIVE is involved? > >> > > >> > Excellent point, as I have been using a Mitsubishi that I set at 6ms. > >> > >> Ah! > >> > >> Shugart and Seimens drives, requiring 15ms. > > > >More usual is 10ms. > > - don > > > > > > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Apr 16 16:49:55 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: Signal detection Message-ID: <990416174955.20c0075a@trailing-edge.com> >>Generally the gauge is a reading of the AGC (automatic gain control) >>level being applied by the radio's IF. There are many other ways to derive >>this signal, but this is the most common one. >How is this AGC level derived, and how is it compared to the signal? Nothing fancy - the AGC circuit is typically just a simple rectifier followed by a RC time constant. The resulting level goes to your meter and is fed back into the IF at a point where changing a bias affects the gain. If there's a "skip over static" function in a digital tuner, it's typically done by comparing the AGC level with a fixed voltage (possibly settable with a pot somewhere.) There are fancier methods of detecting the presence of a signal if you know something specific about that signal. For instance, if you know that it's a FM stereo broadcast, you can look for the FM subcarrier. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 16 16:21:11 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward? In-Reply-To: <19990416073507.8736.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 16 Apr 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > > Specifically the WD-1000-5 disk controller. These are the ones that > [...] > > If you are intimately familiar with this legendary interface, I would > > like to hear from you. I need to figure out how to modify it for 8" > > harddrives. > > Regrettably I no longer have the manual or schematics for these, so a lot > of this is from memory. > > The WD1000-5 was the WD1000 repackaged on an 8" * 5.75" board, to match the > form factor of 5.25" drives. > > The original WD1000 and WD1001 had both 34 and 50 pin drive control > connectors. I'm guessing that the WD1000-5 left the 50 pin connector out. > However, you only need to scramble the pins appropriately, as the actual > signals are the same. All odd pins are ground on both connectors; the others > should map thusly: > > 34-pin 50-pin signal > > 2 2 *RWC reduced write current > 4 4 *HS2 head select 2 > 6 40 *WG write gate > 8 8 *SC seek complete > 10 42 *TK0 track 0 > 12 44 *WF write fault > 14 14 *HS0 head select 0 > 16 NC > 18 18 *HS1 head select 1 > 20 20 *IDX index > 22 22 *RDY ready > 24 36 *STEP > 26 26 *DS1 drive select 1 > 28 28 *DS2 drive select 2 > 30 30 *DS3 drive select 3 > 32 32 *DS4 drive select 4 > 34 34 *DIR step direction (in when asserted) > > The radial data connectors are the same for both drive sizes. > > The bigger problem is that 8-inch drives used a data rate of 4.34 Mbps rather > than 5 Mbps. I seem to recall that the WD1000 had a jumper setting for this. > If they removed the 50-pin drive control connector, they probably also removed > the jumper and supporting circuitry. > > > Also, does anyone have docs for the Quantum Q-2040 8" > > Winchester? I dunno what kind of power to feed it (24v sounds correct, > > but I seem to recall it used 110vac also!), and so on. > > No data here, but almost certainly not 110 VAC. Probably 24V AC and 5V DC. Sorry Eric, but the spin motor is identical to the ones used in the Shugart SA80n series - 120 VAC 60Hz 1.6 Amp. The rest of the power requirements come in through a 6-pin connector, also identical to the Shugart, so I would assume +5 VDC, -5 VDC (maybe), and 24 VDC. Probably to the same pinout as the Shugart. > You *might* be able to get a Q2040 to run at 5 Mbps, but I've never > personally seen it done. I have a hazy recollection of running one on a latter day HDC to view data contents, but the details elude me now. - don From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 16 17:21:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: Signal detection In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 16, 99 03:22:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1936 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990416/31d80a53/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 16 17:49:52 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward? Message-ID: <000a01be885b$84db0420$0100c0a8@fuj03> I thought it would (mmaybe) be helpful to point out that WD made several similarly designated controllers during the period when the 8"-drive-compatible models were available. The WD 1000 series members which used the 8X300 microcontroller used a different command set or register organization, which was, IIRC inverted in some sense, i.e. either the register order was the inverse of the one on the LSI version, or the commands were the complement of the ones the LSI version (designated 1000-05, 1000-08, the latter of which I doubt was ever shipped) As several folks have indicated some of these controllers had both the 50-pin connector for the 8-inch drives' data cable, and the 34-pin connector for the 5-1/4" drives' data cable. What's not entirely obvious with the LSI controllers' jumper layout, characterized in the documents only as a means for disconnecting biasing voltages from the PLL circuitry during calibration, is that if one removes the shorting plugs from some models, again depending on the version, a jumper then will suffice to bypass the PLL circuitry, thereby allowing the use of the clock already available from those drives which provide it on the data connector. If this clock is fed to the circuitry downstream from the PLL, the controller needs no further modification aside from changing the 4x crystal, shipped at 20 MHz, to one at 17.36 MHz, which is 4x the standard rate for 8" drives. That means that an oscillator and a single jumper is all that's necessary to convert some of these boards from 5.25" to 8". Persons wishing to use 8" HDD's should BE CAREFUL with the negative bias supply. Just like some 8" FDD's, some of these drives have on-board regulators for the negative supply, hence will only work if they're fed a nominally -12 V dc source (actually anything greater than -8 vdc and not damaging to the circuitry will be ok) since there's an on-board regulator. A bypass jumper is usually provided, as some drives will be used with supplies designed for drives without the on-board regulator, therefore demanding -5V dc. If this bias supply is not correct, either due to the lack of compatible supply and regulator, or because -5 is being fed to the regulator, the drive will not work. If -12 is fed to the drives which have no regulator, the head interface circuits and probably the data conditioning circuits will be damaged. BE CAREFUL! I didn't learn about this over a beer after work, or by reading an article in a magazine . . . 'nuff said??? Dick Dick -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 4:14 PM Subject: Re: Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward? >On 16 Apr 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > >> > Specifically the WD-1000-5 disk controller. These are the ones that >> [...] >> > If you are intimately familiar with this legendary interface, I would >> > like to hear from you. I need to figure out how to modify it for 8" >> > harddrives. >> >> Regrettably I no longer have the manual or schematics for these, so a lot >> of this is from memory. >> >> The WD1000-5 was the WD1000 repackaged on an 8" * 5.75" board, to match the >> form factor of 5.25" drives. >> >> The original WD1000 and WD1001 had both 34 and 50 pin drive control >> connectors. I'm guessing that the WD1000-5 left the 50 pin connector out. >> However, you only need to scramble the pins appropriately, as the actual >> signals are the same. All odd pins are ground on both connectors; the others >> should map thusly: >> >> 34-pin 50-pin signal >> >> 2 2 *RWC reduced write current >> 4 4 *HS2 head select 2 >> 6 40 *WG write gate >> 8 8 *SC seek complete >> 10 42 *TK0 track 0 >> 12 44 *WF write fault >> 14 14 *HS0 head select 0 >> 16 NC >> 18 18 *HS1 head select 1 >> 20 20 *IDX index >> 22 22 *RDY ready >> 24 36 *STEP >> 26 26 *DS1 drive select 1 >> 28 28 *DS2 drive select 2 >> 30 30 *DS3 drive select 3 >> 32 32 *DS4 drive select 4 >> 34 34 *DIR step direction (in when asserted) >> >> The radial data connectors are the same for both drive sizes. >> >> The bigger problem is that 8-inch drives used a data rate of 4.34 Mbps rather >> than 5 Mbps. I seem to recall that the WD1000 had a jumper setting for this. >> If they removed the 50-pin drive control connector, they probably also removed >> the jumper and supporting circuitry. >> >> > Also, does anyone have docs for the Quantum Q-2040 8" >> > Winchester? I dunno what kind of power to feed it (24v sounds correct, >> > but I seem to recall it used 110vac also!), and so on. >> >> No data here, but almost certainly not 110 VAC. Probably 24V AC and 5V DC. > >Sorry Eric, but the spin motor is identical to the ones used in the >Shugart SA80n series - 120 VAC 60Hz 1.6 Amp. The rest of the power >requirements come in through a 6-pin connector, also identical to the >Shugart, so I would assume +5 VDC, -5 VDC (maybe), and 24 VDC. Probably >to the same pinout as the Shugart. > >> You *might* be able to get a Q2040 to run at 5 Mbps, but I've never >> personally seen it done. > >I have a hazy recollection of running one on a latter day HDC to view data >contents, but the details elude me now. > - don > > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 16 19:25:00 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:13 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality Message-ID: <199904170025.AA01990@world.std.com> Simple dont use word, it's virus prone. < supported. The host interface was very similar in concept and nearly <>in execution as IDE. < < >It's the bench-top console for the M7341 microprocessor. The >KC341-A was the rack-mount console. Thanks... >One would presume, then, that you've got a couple M7341's in your >archives, too :-). I believe I had one board at some point, but I haven't see it yet... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 16 20:03:29 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: 8" drive on a pc controller Message-ID: <000601be886e$1bac2840$0100c0a8@fuj03> I had a number of double-headed drives, including Shugart 851's, Mitsubishi whatevers, Qume DT-8's, and some NEC and Tandon half-height models, all of which were operated at 3 ms. I've got the spec's for all of them so I can verify whether they should indeed operate at that rate. Only the single-headed drives were typically slower, IIRC. The distinction, I believe, is that the "slow" drives use lead screws to position the heads while the quicker ones use a band actuator. What I find puzzling about this is that the 5.25" half-height drives, virtually all of which were capable of the higher speed, were not set up for the higher speed in the default on PC's. I wasn't aware that the NEC controller chip had a problem with the step rate. I stuck with WDC FDC chips in my own applications. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 6:35 PM Subject: Re: 8" drive on a pc controller > >Be specific on the model as the sa800s and 850s would never do 3ms! Though >the later ones did step faster. The problem with 8" drives are that there >were some that were doing their best at 10-12mS and a few like CDCs 3ms >was the norm. Most fell in around 6mS. > >ALSO, the PC controller uses the 765 chip (or it's core) generally and >that chip can truncate the first step pulse by 1/2mS (8/5"). So the >fastest recommended step rate programming (srthut in SPECIFY command) >is 4mS. I believe it was never fixed. > >Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 16 20:25:42 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: AMPRO LITTLE BOARD, etc. Message-ID: <000f01be8871$4969b920$0100c0a8@fuj03> Golly! I wasn't aware that they actually put a SCSI controller on the board. That must have been several rev's later than mine. My two boards were the beta and first release. I put a couple of hundred of these into the field because I liked them and they allowed pretty compact packaging. Take a look at some comments in-line below, please. regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 6:35 PM Subject: Re: AMPRO LITTLE BOARD, etc. > >Mine is only slightly later, has the 5380 scsi chip. > > >The sequence of disks over the years for the HDD side: > > xybec and st506 bought new in 82(late). Still have both. > Adaptec, and Quantum D540 (31mb) much faster. > the adaptec died and the xybec was in with a st251 for a while > then the fujitsu 3.5" scsi drive. > I was propping the door to a room in the basement with a couple of 10MB RODIME 3.5" drives which might work really well with this arrangement. I once ran one of these with a 1"-high 3.5"Sony drive which a PC believed was a 1.2MB drive. Maybe I can fool the FDC drivers into doing a similar thing. That would be handy. There's no "standard" 3.5" driver for CP/M. > ><>supported. The host interface was very similar in concept and nearly ><>in execution as IDE. >< >< > >Here we go again... I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS IDE. I said it was similar in >respect that it was a bus level interface for a controller and predates >IDE. I do know that the wd1003 was what the IDE base design was patterned >after. No, you surely didn't say that! It doesn't use the same cable definition or any thing like it. It just happens to use a 40-conductor cable. The reason I said I'd try modifying the firmware to talk to an IDE drive is that there is reason to believe that the command structure is identical although the hardware would have to be modified to load the registers as it's done on the 16-bit -WAH controller. The fact is that the 1000-05 and the 1002-05 bridge controller boards use the same chip (WD1010-05) as the HDD interface. That's where the command registers are located and they'll require programming in the same way. Since the IDE drive has, essentially, the same register set on it to accomplish the controller functions, and the register set mapped in the same way as the WD1003-WAH, it should be possible to make it work similarly. ><1000-05 board and ST-506 drive just to see what it does. I'd imagine they > >>From the programming I did in the late 80s with them I'd say they did. > > >Explains alot. the first hard disk system I had was S100 so the standard >for performance was already set in my mind by '83. > ><"volume," i.e. they hold about 7.2 MB which is nearly the max for a CP/M > >I have one of those that replaced the MFM one from way back. > > >Finding them can be tough. the 6mhz are more common. 8530s or 8330s are >easier to find and offer better perfomance. > I'm really not that hot for it, but think it would be charming to put a set of '-H' parts in an early AMPRO Little Board and make it work at 8MHz. The timing should work with 100ns DRAMs. Aside from the PROM, I doubt anything other than the peripherals would be affected by the speed change. Of course the FDC would require a different tap from the clock divider, but everything else should work as is, save, perhaps the PROM. The PROM might work if the clock switch were hacked as well. (I believe there was a little sorcery with switching the clock speed after copying the PROM into RAM, by switching the preset on a counter. What I liked about this was the really sensible packaging you could use with these small boards. I have a video display/keyboard on a similar form factor which I'd really like to package with these other two boards and the drives. That would be truly minimalist for the time. > >Allison > > From at258 at osfn.org Fri Apr 16 20:59:40 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT: City Names In-Reply-To: <001101be87c7$506fd2e0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: > > > >all this masculine/feminine/neuter gender and case stuff. Confused the > hell > > >out of me. > > m/f/n is no that difficult. Just different from language to language. > > Well, no not really. Simply doesn't exist in English. Everything is um, > neuter I guess, we don't have a term for it that we didn't pinch from > another language actually. We certainly do have gender, but usually the forms are identical. Inflection in English is very restricted, compared say to German or the classical languages. Since our adjectives have the same form for each gender, it's not noticeable, and hasn't been that way for say 800 years or so. From max82 at surfree.com Fri Apr 16 20:03:27 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: temporarily unsubscribing Message-ID: Hi, I'm removing myself from the list until wednesday, since I will be unable to check my mailbox during that period. Please, e-mail requests privately or wait until wednesday. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Apr 17 00:33:51 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: *.cam files Message-ID: <01be8893$e05fd720$7a9ba6d1@the-general> Hi! I was just given some *.cam files. They're supposed to be image files of a computer to put on my webpage (classic computer section). They were taken with a digital camera, and downloaded to a PC. My question is: how in the heck do I view them?? Anyone have any idea? -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 16 23:09:44 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: DEC RA81 need quick answer Message-ID: On a DEC RA81 how do you tell if the heads have been locked? Or how do you lock the heads? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From fauradon at pclink.com Fri Apr 16 21:33:48 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: Has anybody heard from Wirehead? Message-ID: <000201be8882$00f784e0$0100a8c0@fauradon.mn.mediaone.net> Well I finally got my shipment today. Still no word from him though. Francois >He cashed mine about a month ago and I also Have had very little contact >with him. Last I got was that he was traveling or otherwise swamped by his >job. His last e-mail stated that he'll ship on monday and confirm by e-mail >but I have not received such confirmation... I'm getting impatient too... > >Francois > >>I haven't heard from him either. He cashed my check on April 5, 1999. Let >me >>know if you hear from him. >> >> > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Apr 16 12:54:37 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: Power Frequency References: <001101be87c7$506fd2e0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> <199904161729.TAA29968@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <001101be8832$385094e0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 3:59 AM Subject: OT: Power Frequency > > 240V was chosen to be the standard to reduce line losses??? Why 50cyc? > > Short answer: > Why not. > Or: Why 60 ? Good question. > Long Answer: > A willingfull decision of a single person (or group) in the past. Dead right. AFAIK, in our case we simply adopted the British standard, we only ceased to be a Crown colony in 1901, and were still fairly anglicised in our orientation. Still true to a point. We drive on the LEFT side of the road with RH drive cars too. Upsets some visitors. :^) >The 60 Hz decison might have > been based on the idea to continue the line: one minute is 1/60th of > a hour, and a second is 1/60th of a minute, and a cycle is 1/60th of > a second ... while the 50Hz idea was based on geting a simple number, > In fact any number could have been involved. I think you are spot on there, I am led to believe the 60hz decision in the US and some other countries was made to facilitate the use of the (relatively) precise mains frequency for clocks and other timing functions. This is also possible, even for motor driven clocks, with 50hz mains simply by careful motor design. Though it may have been less simple when the decision was made. I'm not even sure when 240v 50hz became the standard, though I think it was around 1920 or so, at least in this country. Television systems for particular countries usually have a frame rate equivalent to the mains frequency. This reduces/eliminates mains hum strobing, though it is more of a historical problem with modern TV designs I think. US NTSC is 525 line 60hz PAL 625 line 50hz. We use PAL. (There are all kinds of wierd variations, including a version of PAL with a 60hz field rate in South America somewhere - Brazil I think) Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 16 22:37:21 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT: City Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, William Donzelli wrote: > Yawn, Yawn, Yawn. > > If people want to send _way_ off topic stuff to this list, my requests are > articles about ice fishing, reprints of old Home & Garden magazines, or > hardcore pornography. Might as well make it worth it. My vote is for the hardcore porn. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 16 22:51:50 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: Signal detection In-Reply-To: <990416162923.20c006f5@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Apr 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Could anyone tell me how a radio detects signals vs. static? There is a > >little gauge on my radio that moves depending on the amount of noise vs. > >signal. I would guess that the digitally tuned radios that skip over the > >frequencies that are pure static work in the same way. What is this way? > > Generally the gauge is a reading of the AGC (automatic gain control) > level being applied by the radio's IF. There are many other ways to derive > this signal, but this is the most common one. I know it may seem like this list has merely become a free-for-all in light of recent topics, but isn't this question MUCH better served on a ham newsgroup or list, of which there plenty?? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 16 22:56:12 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > However, for people starting out, getting their first computer, they are > going to want to be able to use the software from the local PC shop. > They're going to want to be able to use the 'learn to use your home > computer' type magazines. And, unfortuantely, you can't use a PDPx or a > PERQ or a TRS-80 or an Apple ][ or a PET or a BBC or a ... for any of > that. Sure _we_ can get these machines to do useful work, but probably > others can't. Sure, anyone can. Just deliver them an old home computer with a stack of books and magazines that were published around it and they could figure anything out. You can find old issues of Nibble, Incider, A+ for the Apple ][ in lots of places. I'm sure the prevailing magazines for the other common machines can be found just as easily. Of course a PERQ or PDP would be a different story, but the home micros are well documented. > I'm even more amazed by the amount of test equipment that I've been given > as 'beyond repair' that's had trivial faults. It's one thing that the > little-old-lady can't fix the TV (even if the only fault is a wire off in > the plug), but an electronic engineer who can't find an blown fuse in > some expensive piece of equipment? What is this world coming to? I've gotten some real good test equipment that had only trivial faults for real cheap. Now to find those faults and fix them :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 16 22:57:45 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <000801be884a$cc824740$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Since we all see to have so much time on our hands . . . perhaps it would be > amusing to attempt to write the SAME logic in the SAME way on each > processor, then compare to see which is faster. THEN turn around and try to > improve the implementation of this logic to see which is easier to speed up, > and perhaps see which has the greatest cost in terms of memory usage, etc. > > It's truly a retrocomputing exercise, as neither processor is "still around" > in the sense of mainstream applications, or even as an "active" product. Ooh! A machine code competition. I'm in! I'll do the 6502 and whoop EVERYONE'S ass! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Fri Apr 16 23:23:10 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: DEC RA81 need quick answer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199904170423.OAA04200@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 20:09 16/04/99 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: >On a DEC RA81 how do you tell if the heads have been locked? Or how do you >lock the heads? OK, open the top cover (there's a lock on the front which you need to poke with a screwdriver). Upon opening you will see a white plastic lever which will either point to the work lock or not (writing cast into the HDA). I seem to recall that the correct way to lock the heads is with the disk spinning but I also seem to recall some argument to do this with the disk off. Over to the experts (I used to be one, but I haven't had an RA81 to play with for about 5 years and don't seem to be able to find the manual (probably at work)). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Apr 16 14:05:42 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT: City Names References: Message-ID: <008a01be883c$21b86320$f17d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: Merle K. Peirce To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 11:29 AM Subject: Re: OT: City Names > > Well, no not really. Simply doesn't exist in English. Everything is um, > > neuter I guess, we don't have a term for it that we didn't pinch from > > another language actually. > > We certainly do have gender, but usually the forms are identical. Oh? Can you give me an example? If so, it demonstrates that gender is irrelevant in English I guess. Perhaps it had gender once? I think Latin had gender and we use a lot of Latin words. > Inflection in English is very restricted, compared say to German or the > classical languages. Make it "virtually nonexistent" and I'll go along with that. > Since our adjectives have the same form for each gender, it's not noticeable, > and hasn't been that way for say 800 years > or so. The existence of gender in English is not taught at school.. I'd remember that. I was exposed to French briefly in 1st Year High. It was the first time I heard of the concept. (Dropped it as irrelevant after a term and did Tech Drawing instead) Cheers Geoff Roberts From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Apr 16 21:03:05 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Then they can use it on the job, where the company paid for it to >be installed on the company's computer and if it gets eaten by the >next macro virus to come down the pike, who cares? That's no >reason to use it anywhere else -- even if you have to take work >home, you save the document in an intelligently macro-free format >and use it with whatever you want. (Yeah, yeah, when you save a >Word document in another format, it always whinges that features >will be lost -- too bad for it). My normal save format is ASCII >text. Still lookin for that free bubble up, eh? The world I live in demands that I am a bit more cooperative with whatever stupid ideas the man who signs my check has. The work I do HAS TO look professional on other peoples computers, and right now that means I use what they use. Ridiculous, but still true. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Fri Apr 16 23:44:31 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: Several things Message-ID: <199904170444.AAA27820@platy.cs.unc.edu> On 9 Apr 1999, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: ... ] A ROM _is_ combinatorial logic. I don't want to get into a silly argument ] over this, but I have great difficulty finding a conceptual difference ] between a combinatorial circuit built from a pile of AND, OR and NOT ] gates and the same circuit built (albeit using a lot more transistors) in ] a ROM. To claim that a CPU using a ROM is microcoded but one with ] _identical_ internal states using simple gates as the feedback logic ] round the sequencer flip-flops is not is a very strange way of thinking ] about things. Request accepted; silly argument follows. (Oh, you said "don't"? Oh well, too late.) Do you mean to say that _all_ computers are microcoded? After all, the control logic can always be modelled by some number of state FFs and a large-enough ROM, couldn't it? Or is your claim that there is no such thing as microcoding? That strikes me as far-fetched as well. The difference is that a ROM is easily replaceable; slap in another ROM or EPROM with different microcode burned in, and you've got an entirely different machine on your hands. Maybe to you it is just as easy to redesign some section of the circuit board, etch a new one, pull the newly required chips from your very-deep storage bin, and Bingo! you're done. For most of us, I suspect that sounds like quite a lot of effort. I don't think anybody ever claimed that microcoded machines could do things that non-microcoded machine could not, or vice-versa. It is a matter of convenience. And maybe there is some added comfort level for software geeks, using a (micro)program to control everything, and being able to alter it just like any other software (or firmware). I guess it is exactly the added (and admittedly wasted in any fixed design) transistors, just sitting there unused, waiting to be assigned work, that makes microcoding attractive - it is easier to adjust precisely because you don't have to muck around with how many transistors are in there, or worry about board-space/power-consumption/fanout/etc/etc that you might have to worry about if you wanted to adjust some hard- wired discrete logic. Bill. (Gee, that didn't turn out to be nearly as silly as I had expected.) From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Fri Apr 16 23:49:13 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <199904170449.AAA27836@platy.cs.unc.edu> I'm almost afraid to ask this, but what language is the Perl interpreter written in? Bill. (K&R C rules! ANSI C is for wimps!) On 9 Apr 1999, Cameron Kaiser wrote: ] :: It's stupid to handle errors? Or are you saying one shouldn't be using C ] ::in the first place? ] ] The latter :-) ] ] :: -spc (Not that C is the best language ... ) ] ] I'm still kinda stuck on Pascal, myself. But I loves Perl. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Fri Apr 16 23:52:36 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism Message-ID: <199904170452.AAA27853@platy.cs.unc.edu> It is not such a great testimonial when you admit that you like it because they paid you for it. :-) Reminds me of the spoof interview with Staunstrup about C++ ... Bill. On 9 Apr 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: ] I am presently paying for my classic computer hobby by crafting perl for 50+ ] hours per week at consultant's wages. I *love* perl! From cem14 at cornell.edu Fri Apr 16 23:55:04 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19990417005504.0072b544@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 07:03 PM 4/16/99 -0700, you wrote: -snip- >>(Yeah, yeah, when you save a >>Word document in another format, it always whinges that features >>will be lost -- too bad for it). My normal save format is ASCII >>text. > >Still lookin for that free bubble up, eh? > >The world I live in demands that I am a bit more cooperative with whatever >stupid ideas the man who signs my check has. The work I do HAS TO look >professional on other peoples' computers, and right now that means I use >what they use. Ridiculous, but still true. MS Word ``Professional''?--{\em You've got to be kidding.} From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Apr 16 14:32:17 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT: City Names References: Message-ID: <009201be883f$daa95440$f17d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Maslin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 6:34 AM Subject: Re: OT: City Names > > 1) Everybody speaks English. ('Cepting a few migrants/boat people....:^) > > English? I thought you chaps spoke "Strine". At least that's what a > former neighbor who came from there acknowledged. Hmm, only partly right at best. Strine is simply english, Australian accented, with a bit of rhyming slang and a more pronounced drawl. (Paul Hogan in Crocodile Dundee is about as bad as it gets) Generally associated with lower/working class/poorly educated types. Rough bushies and so forth. Cockney would be a rough British equivalent. Most moderately well educated Aussies speak fairly classical english, in the British style and spelling useage, just with a different accent. (For instance, I write virtually in the same style I speak.) > He allowed as how folks in the east and west have difficulty in communicating :) Gross exaggeration if not downright untrue. Just a few local words and useages. Some Queenslanders tend to put "ay" at the end of every sentence - Territorian tend to use "but", Victorians say "castle" with a short "a" as in "fat" while New South Walers say it as an "ar" as "car". For practical purposes, there is no significant difference in speech between someone from Perth and someone from Brisbane assuming similar education levels etc. Compared to the differences between say, Cornish accents and Yorkshire accents in England, any differences here don't exist. If you want to know where someone is from, you usually have to ask. New Zealanders have an accent, (to us anyway) and the way they say certain words is a dead giveaway. (Fish and chips in Kiwi would be Fush and chups with the u as in "up") This accent becomes more pronounced the further south you go. But it doesn't render them incomprehensible, it's just a little different. Cheers Geoff Roberts From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Apr 16 14:47:31 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT: City Names References: <199904161833.UAA02446@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <009801be8841$f9c8f0e0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 5:03 AM Subject: Re: OT: City Names > > What? Have we found in the Aussies a nation who are even worse at foreign > > languages than the British? I never thought I'd live to see the day! ;-) Probably. We do have an excuse though. :^) The Brits are close enough to France and Spain to throw rocks at 'em. > Maybe, since if he counts in large, non primary english speaking > parts of australia just as english ? Large, non-primary English speaking parts of Australia???? Where? The Tanami Desert?? Pidjantjara is possibly more prevalent, but with a density of 1 person per 20 Square miles, it doesn't make a lot of difference. In major cities the only things that spring to mind are places like Cabramatta which is predominantly Vietnamese. > (The experiance of driving > some hunderts of kilometers thru the outback and then getting > 'Schwarzbraun ist die Haselnuss' as the first song on the first > radiostation is like beeing hit by a 1000 ton hammer) I believe that. Where did you come out? The Barossa Valley? > > Watch out! The Serbian alphabet is as different from the Russian alphabet (the > > de facto standard for Cyrillic) as the Polish alphabet is from the English > > alphabet... Good Grief. > AFAIK only 5 additional letters (DJE, JE, LJE, TSCHE and DSCHE) > but you're right. > > > (I have somewhere a Yugoslavian banknote. Everything is written on it in four > > local languages - two using Cyrillic and two using Latin characters. The > > languages are similar enough that AFAIK nothing needs to be said more than three > > times...) Only 3. Right. And I thought the Canadians had problems. :^) > > 3 Language 4 scripts: > Slovenian (Latin) > Serbocroatian (Latin) > Serbocroatian (Kyrillic) > Macedonian (Cyrillic) Ouch. > (*) This is a kind of a once a lifetime job ... or when do you get > a chance to develop a new characterset system :)) The task is to > enhance an 20 year old (still new releases and development) EBCDIC > mainframesystem to support not only some umlauts, but rather all > main European languages _and_ some foreign scripts like Cyrillic, > Greek or Arabic - I havn't had so much fun since a long time How long does it seem likely this will take? 60 years? Or only til you retire? ;^) EBCDIC is in good company it seems. Best of luck.. Cheers Geoff Roberts From spc at armigeron.com Sat Apr 17 00:16:03 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism In-Reply-To: <199904170449.AAA27836@platy.cs.unc.edu> from "Bill Yakowenko" at Apr 17, 99 00:49:13 am Message-ID: <199904170516.BAA28981@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990417/3e6e68f9/attachment.ksh From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sat Apr 17 00:22:04 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: Don Lancaster was Re: Ebay Mark-8 Plans Message-ID: <199904170522.BAA27965@platy.cs.unc.edu> On 12 Apr 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: ] Well, so much for April 1st being the specific "Holiday of Jest" ;-) I much prefer "August Fool's Day". Nobody expects it. :-) Bill. From donm at cts.com Sat Apr 17 00:31:41 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT: City Names In-Reply-To: <009201be883f$daa95440$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Apr 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote: ________O/_______ O\ > Hmm, only partly right at best. Strine is simply english, Australian > accented, with a bit of rhyming slang and a more pronounced drawl. (Paul > Hogan in Crocodile Dundee is about as bad as it gets) > Generally associated with lower/working class/poorly educated types. Rough > bushies and so forth. Cockney would be a rough British equivalent. > Most moderately well educated Aussies speak fairly classical english, in the > British style and spelling useage, just with a different accent. (For > instance, I write virtually in the same style I speak.) > > > He allowed as how folks in the east and west have difficulty in > communicating :) > > Gross exaggeration if not downright untrue. Just a few local words and > useages. Some Queenslanders tend to put "ay" at the end of every sentence - > Territorian tend to use "but", Victorians say "castle" with a short "a" as > in "fat" while New South Walers say it as an "ar" as "car". For practical > purposes, there is no significant difference in speech between someone from > Perth and someone from Brisbane assuming similar education levels etc. > Compared to the differences between say, Cornish accents and Yorkshire > accents in England, any differences here don't exist. If you want to know > where someone is from, you usually have to ask. > > New Zealanders have an accent, (to us anyway) and the way they say certain > words is a dead giveaway. > (Fish and chips in Kiwi would be Fush and chups with the u as in "up") > This accent becomes more pronounced the further south you go. But it > doesn't render them incomprehensible, it's just a little different. > > Cheers > > Geoff Roberts Glad to be straightened out, Jeff. But even some of you educated chaps can be difficult for Yank ears to understand :) - don From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sat Apr 17 00:36:29 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: x86, x86 everywhere, but... (was OT: Re: Time to declare State of MA) Message-ID: <199904170536.BAA28015@platy.cs.unc.edu> I am slowly coming to accept that my value set was molded when certain things were scarce, and no longer are. I would have been thrilled to get any kind of computer when I was in high school. So it is hard for me to imagine people willing to throw away _any_ computer. But now I am starting to see that XT's and 286's are like paper cups. Not only do they tend to work less well as they age (they eventually break and lack support from their manufacturers), but they are really next to valueless in terms of replacement cost. Even if getting a computer to somebody who is destitute, the time of the compu-geek who sets it up is worth more than a newer faster machine would be. The only difference between the old x86 machines and paper cups is quantity: there are fewer paper cups. Bill. (I'm not advocating a throw-away culture, BTW. Just noting the economics of the situation. I wish we could convince people to put in the effort to use and learn from the old machines rather than continuously filling up landfills with them just to make more. But I'm still a long way from getting the rest of the world to see things my way.) (Okay, so that's another difference between XTs and paper cups: paper cups are more landfill-friendly.) On 15 Apr 1999, Mike Ford wrote: ] The Goodwill near me just got 600 computers from Pacific Bell, all 486 and ] older, most in pretty good shape. The result is that a LOT more only ] slightly wanky 486 boxes are getting tossed in the scrappers bin. Goodwill ] won't take a 386, or if it gets in the product stream it goes either to the ] scrapper or the huge AS-IS morning auction of bins of stuff only loosely ] sorted by category. ] ] However painfull you may find it personally, it only takes a TINY bit wrong ] to make an old computer have negative value except as scrap or parts. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Apr 16 15:20:24 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT: City Names References: Message-ID: <014801be8846$91abdb80$f17d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Maslin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 3:01 PM Subject: Re: OT: City Names > Glad to be straightened out, Jeff. But even some of you educated chaps > can be difficult for Yank ears to understand :) ROFL. Educated? Not sure I can claim that, I didn't finish High School. The comprehension (or lack therof) is mutual. Classic example is a US exchange student we had here in the 70's. She was nearly ready to go home before many of us figured out her name was "Carol" and not "Kerryl" which is how it sounded to us. Cheers Geoff Roberts From mikeford at netwiz.net Sat Apr 17 01:20:15 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19990417005504.0072b544@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> References: Message-ID: >>The world I live in demands that I am a bit more cooperative with whatever >>stupid ideas the man who signs my check has. The work I do HAS TO look >>professional on other peoples' computers, and right now that means I use >>what they use. Ridiculous, but still true. > >MS Word ``Professional''?--{\em You've got to be kidding.} Not what I said, all the cells in a table printing on one page as opposed to the last column or row printing on a page by itsself, is professional. Right now how you do that is to use the exact same product and version. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Apr 17 02:02:31 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: All this OT stuff... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990417000231.0095e880@mail.bluefeathertech.com> NOTE: This will be my ONLY message to the list on this subject. I will not reply except via private E-mail. Ya know, when I first joined CLASSICCMP, I joined because I felt it would be a good resource to aid in my work with DEC systems (notably VAXen and PDP), and a meeting place for those who still knew which end of a soldering pencil to use. So far, it has proven to be both, and I've been pretty happy with it. I couldn't care less about the occasional flame war. Such things are inevitable. I'll simply filter it and get on with life. HOWEVER -- Am I the only one getting -really- fed up with all the 'OT:' and 'Re: OT' subject lines and off-topic messages? If a subject is off-topic for the list, then it is off-topic for the list and should, IMO, be taken to private E-mail. Just because you mark it OT does not, in my view, make it OK to clutter the list with it. I've installed a filter at my end that should dump most, if not all, messages with OT: in the subject line. However, the point remains that I should not have had to do so in the first place. Please take OT's elsewhere. Ok? Thanks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 17 03:04:26 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:57:45 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19990417080426.23029.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sellam wrote: > Ooh! A machine code competition. I'm in! I'll do the 6502 and whoop > EVERYONE'S ass! Sounds like I challenge; I'm a damn good 6502 programmer, IMNSHO. On the other hand, I've found that the 6809 often has better code density than any other 8-bit micro. Many years ago there was a challenge on one of the newsgroups to write the smallest routine (not necessarily the fastest) to convert a number from 1-255 in the accumulator to roman numerals (output by a subroutine call that prints a character). I don't remember the byte counts, but my 6809 routine was several bytes shorter than any other entrant. There was one famous net.personality that insisted that his 6502 code was even shorter, but he refused to post the code so his claim went unverified. To make my code as short as it was, I used every trick in the book and then some. For instance, I had a table whose end was delimited by a byte with the high bit set. The table was placed immediately *before* the code in memory, because the high bit of the first opcode was set and could thus end the table. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 17 03:13:16 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: Education vs. School (was Re: OT: City Names) In-Reply-To: <014801be8846$91abdb80$f17d38cb@helpdesk> (geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au) References: <014801be8846$91abdb80$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <19990417081316.23074.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Geoff Roberts" wrote: > Educated? Not sure I can claim that, I didn't finish High School. What are the logical steps between the premise that you didn't finish High School and the conclusion that you can't claim to be eduated? In most regards, I'd have to say that school was one of the parts of my life *least* related to my education. IIRC, didn't Mark Twain say something to the effect that one should never let schooling get in the way of one's education? From mikeford at netwiz.net Sat Apr 17 01:43:58 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: References: <199904160106.VAA04221@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Apr 15, 99 09:07:43 pm Message-ID: >However, for people starting out, getting their first computer, they are >going to want to be able to use the software from the local PC shop. >They're going to want to be able to use the 'learn to use your home >computer' type magazines. And, unfortuantely, you can't use a PDPx or a >PERQ or a TRS-80 or an Apple ][ or a PET or a BBC or a ... for any of >that. Sure _we_ can get these machines to do useful work, but probably >others can't. Thats it in a nutshell. Either you provide a full suite of software with the old hardware, or new users won't be able to use it. With the right software people are AMAZED at what older computers can do. Without actually seeing software running and doing the things they want to do, novice users won't believe it can be done. From mikeford at netwiz.net Sat Apr 17 03:11:50 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT: City Names In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Yawn, Yawn, Yawn. >> >> If people want to send _way_ off topic stuff to this list, my requests are >> articles about ice fishing, reprints of old Home & Garden magazines, or >> hardcore pornography. > >Might as well make it worth it. My vote is for the hardcore porn. Hmmmm, hardcore, hardware, maybe it would be OK as long as its pre 1989 porn. From mikeford at netwiz.net Sat Apr 17 03:18:35 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: References: <000801be884a$cc824740$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: >Ooh! A machine code competition. I'm in! I'll do the 6502 and whoop >EVERYONE'S ass! And then you woke up. First what are the rules, 6502 or 65C02, code in Rom or Ram, what is the code supposed to do? My vote goes for something with some graphical element so we can "see" what is happening. (spinning ball, etc.) From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Apr 16 23:23:45 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT Re: Signal detection In-Reply-To: References: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 16, 99 03:22:03 pm Message-ID: <199904170823.EAA29846@smtp.interlog.com> On 16 Apr 99 at 23:21, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Hi, > > Could anyone tell me how a radio detects signals vs. static? There is a > > little gauge on my radio that moves depending on the amount of noise vs. > > As you know, a radio uses some kind of freqeuncy-selective filter to > selected the wanted station from all the others. And it then amplifies > that signal. But since all the different signals have different strengths > when they reach your radio (and a particular signal may even vary in > strength), you'd have to keep on adjusting the volume control as you were > tuning the set to ensure that (a) you didn't miss any signals and (b) you > didn't drive everyone mad when you hit the stronger signals. > I've got a couple of old Eico tube amps that have both loudness and level pots. Wasn't there also a problem related to changing amplitude. These used pre-Crossley non-multiplexed external FM tuners so it was related to any input not only signal detection. There's also a control for the various phono recording types. e.g. Columbia, London, RIAA, Am78, and Eur78 > So all modern radios (the idea was first used in the 1930's, I think) > have a circuit called an Automatic Gain Control (AGC) [Sometimes called > Automatic Volume Control - AVC - in older books). This circuit measures > the average level of the received signal and adjusts the gain (how much > the set amplifies the signal) so that all signals appear to have the same > volume. Weak signals get amplified more than strong ones. > > Now, firstly static is always there, even when you're listening to a > strong station. Don't think it's stronger when there's no station - it's > not. But if there's no station, then the AGC circuit makes the set > amplify the (non-existent, really) signal as much as it can, so the (very > weak) static sounds quite loud > > Secondly, by measuring the control signal that controls the gain you can > get some idea of how strong the signal is. The less gain the radio is > using, the stronger the signal. That's almost certainly what the meter on > your radio is measuring. > I have some older equipment that doesn't TMK use AGC that has signal level meters and as well there were the tube signal level indicators. Is that method only used on the cheaper newer sets ? > > signal. I would guess that the digitally tuned radios that skip over the > > frequencies that are pure static work in the same way. What is this way? > > Yes. Unless they detect a suitably strong signal, they'll skip over it. A > real pain if you're trying to receive a very weak signal. > > -tony > Yeah, I got rid of a mid-quality Sony receiver with a click-click and all the conveniences but with a digital tuner, because of that. Now I have to get up from the couch if I want to change anything. Gives me some exercise. :^)) ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Apr 16 23:23:47 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: References: <199904160106.VAA04221@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Apr 15, 99 09:07:43 pm Message-ID: <199904170823.EAA29858@smtp.interlog.com> On 16 Apr 99 at 19:29, Tony Duell wrote: > > The advantage we have is that we are not intimidated by the technology and > > can fix them. I am heartened by some of the examples listed which get these > > I can see 2 points of view here. > > Firstly we know that useful work can be done on old machines. I could > still write a perfectly respectable letter using Scripsit on my old Tandy > model 4 and print it out on a daisywheel printer. My BBC micro will still > play interesting games (if that's what you're into). > > But, we also know that these machines won't run the latest version of > Windows. It doesn't matter to us - we can find the software we need to > run under other operating systems. > > However, for people starting out, getting their first computer, they are > going to want to be able to use the software from the local PC shop. > They're going to want to be able to use the 'learn to use your home > computer' type magazines. And, unfortuantely, you can't use a PDPx or a > PERQ or a TRS-80 or an Apple ][ or a PET or a BBC or a ... for any of > that. Sure _we_ can get these machines to do useful work, but probably > others can't. > But we were talking about trashing 386 and 486 s . Most people could use those for "surfing the web" or most of the tasks that home computers are used for by the vast majority of people despite being urged by the "Big Sell" to be on the bleeding edge. > For somebody who wants to learn how a computer works, or who wants to > learn to program (in assembly language, even), then these old machine are > great, though. Pity more people don't want to do this. > > > machines out to people who can use them, especially the one that used them > > for teaching kids how to repair and then keep their machines. > > A lot of the disposable societies glut is because the majority of people > > haven't got a clue as to how their convenience machine works. If it stops > > fuctioning toss it and buy another. I'm amazed at what I find in the garbage. > > A good percentage of the time, it's just a faulty power cord. > > I'm even more amazed by the amount of test equipment that I've been given > as 'beyond repair' that's had trivial faults. It's one thing that the > little-old-lady can't fix the TV (even if the only fault is a wire off in > the plug), but an electronic engineer who can't find an blown fuse in > some expensive piece of equipment? What is this world coming to? > > > I don't use MS Word myself nor for that matter code-bloated Windblows 9x > > and don't find myself at any disadvantage except for some of the newer programs > > that demand 32 bit. I can do without them. There are plenty of programs > > available in the various archives to do my tasks. > > Sure, you can do without said programs. So can I. OK, I do like Linux > (which means I need a 386 or above, but nothing more). But this doesn't > mean that j-random-public doesn't want (or thinks he wants) the latest M$ > offering. > > -tony > But of course we are urged to "want" all sorts of things. I'd love to be able to afford a Lamborgini. But if you don't have a TV a B&W is a step up. And for many out there unable to afford a computer, a 386 is a luxury even if it isn't on the bleeding edge despite the "need for speed" of so many computer advocates and the encoragement of Software companies looking to sell new product. Reminds me of the Auto companies High Horsepower sell untill it became non-viable in the 70s as a selling point, or the earlier ever-changing new model fin-size. Our local Freenet has stayed with Lynx just because many of the members don't have a GUI machine. This enables most to get on the internet. Which is becoming the class distinction of our era. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 17 03:37:14 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Apr 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >Ooh! A machine code competition. I'm in! I'll do the 6502 and whoop > >EVERYONE'S ass! > > And then you woke up. First what are the rules, 6502 or 65C02, code in Rom > or Ram, what is the code supposed to do? > > My vote goes for something with some graphical element so we can "see" what > is happening. (spinning ball, etc.) BRING IT ON, MO FO! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Sat Apr 17 03:43:02 1999 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: Kaypro (fwd) Message-ID: Here is someone in Colorado with many nice Kaypro's they'd like to get rid of. Please reply to the SENDER of the message: Reply-to: DaveG56313@aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:43:42 EDT From: DaveG56313@aol.com Subject: Kaypro Are you interested in Kaypro hardware and software? I have four of them (I think it's four) gathering dust in a store room. One is my original Kaypro II with an internal Ramdrive I built from plans I found on GEnie. I think there's another original Kaypro II, a Kaypro IV, and two Kaypro 10's (one with two 20mb hard drives replacing the original 10mb drive. Four of the five are in working order. Software includes a complete shareware library from the local Kaypro Users Group I belonged to. There are also two daisy wheel printers--Diablo 620's. One is parallel; one is serial. Let me know if there is any interest. Dave Green Loveland, Colorado Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puttin' the smack down on the man! Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Apr 16 20:42:19 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: Education vs. School (was Re: OT: City Names) References: <014801be8846$91abdb80$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <000001be8873$c0d8c1c0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 5:43 PM Subject: Education vs. School (was Re: OT: City Names) > "Geoff Roberts" wrote: > > Educated? Not sure I can claim that, I didn't finish High School. > > What are the logical steps between the premise that you didn't finish > High School and the conclusion that you can't claim to be eduated? LOL. Perhaps I should qualify that and say that my FORMAL education was not extensive. I did/do read constantly, and I have had specialist training in some complex stuff. > In most regards, I'd have to say that school was one of the parts of my > life *least* related to my education. Frankly, I hated school. From about grade 3 on. > IIRC, didn't Mark Twain say something > to the effect that one should never let schooling get in the way of one's > education? I believe so. I also believe he is correct, especially in view of some of the products of the alleged education system I have seen in recent years. We're talking Year 12's that can't spell to save their life, or do simple arithmetic without a calculator. It's a worry. Cheers Geoff From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Apr 17 07:30:38 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT: Power Frequency In-Reply-To: <199904161729.TAA29968@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <3.0.3.32.19990416102818.00914910@207.207.0.212> <001101be87c7$506fd2e0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990417083038.007a9330@mail.wincom.net> At 07:29 PM 4/16/1999 +1, you wrote: >> >> >3) 240VAC 3 pin sockets are a national standard. >> >> I think only the English (and Swiss?) are the ones that want to be >> >> different to the rest of Europe - in this case anyway (there are many >> >> others). > >> >What about the mains voltage? Does that vary a lot? We're all 240v 50hz. >> >(In theory, anyway) > >> 240V was chosen to be the standard to reduce line losses??? Why 50cyc? > >Short answer: >Why not. >Or: Why 60 ? > When I was a kid Ontario power was on a twenty five cycle frequency. This resulted in flickering lights and the requirement that every transformer and motor had to be specially built, and everything we bought was very expensive. Back in the fifties the whole system was converted to sixty cycles, so our equipment is now less expensive but we are still paying the cost of the conversion so our taxes are much higher. For a while I had an income converting low priced US TV sets to operate on twenty five cycles. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From mwp at acm.org Sat Apr 17 07:52:01 1999 From: mwp at acm.org (Michael Passer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: *.cam files References: <01be8893$e05fd720$7a9ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <001b01be88d1$c20c9720$0180a8c0@zeus> If those files are from a Casio QV digital camera, a program to convert them to the JPG format is available at ftp://ftp.itojun.org/pub/digi-cam/QV10/ There are both Unix and Windows versions available. I tested the Windows version and it's straightforward and works. Hope this helps! --Michael Passer mwp@acm.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Jason Willgruber To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 12:33 AM Subject: *.cam files > Hi! > > I was just given some *.cam files. They're supposed to be image files of a > computer to put on my webpage (classic computer section). They were taken > with a digital camera, and downloaded to a PC. My question is: how in the > heck do I view them?? Anyone have any idea? > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Apr 17 08:10:35 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: DEC RA81 need quick answer In-Reply-To: <199904170423.OAA04200@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> from Huw Davies at "Apr 17, 1999 2:23:10 pm" Message-ID: <199904171310.JAA99577@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > At 20:09 16/04/99 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >On a DEC RA81 how do you tell if the heads have been locked? Or how do you > >lock the heads? > > OK, open the top cover (there's a lock on the front which you need to poke > with a screwdriver). Upon opening you will see a white plastic lever which > will either point to the work lock or not (writing cast into the HDA). I > seem to recall that the correct way to lock the heads is with the disk > spinning but I also seem to recall some argument to do this with the disk > off. Over to the experts (I used to be one, but I haven't had an RA81 to > play with for about 5 years and don't seem to be able to find the manual > (probably at work)). > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au > Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 > 1999 > La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" > Always did them with the drive spun down when I was in Field Service... ... but it doesn't mean that was the best way. I never lost an HDA, though. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Sat Apr 17 10:09:58 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: Coding chanllange (was: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199904171310.PAA03933@horus.mch.sni.de> > > >Ooh! A machine code competition. I'm in! I'll do the 6502 and whoop > > >EVERYONE'S ass! > > And then you woke up. First what are the rules, 6502 or 65C02, code in Rom > > or Ram, what is the code supposed to do? Good point. > > My vote goes for something with some graphical element so we can "see" what > > is happening. (spinning ball, etc.) Nice, but already to high level. The task should be abstract enough to run within a simple system, lets say a SBC system with CPU, some MEM and some of the usual I/O&Controll stuff (Ports, Serial, Timer). Basicly there are two types of possible challanges: a) implements some kind of standard code in a most speedy way, or b) build some small, but sophisticated "real world" application. Challenge a) would meet the basic idea we had in our discusion: define at what ratio two processors are equivalent when executing a real task, while b) should be sophisticated enough to give a 'boh ey' (sound of exeptional admire) effect. In terms of a sportive competition a) would be a compulsatory exercise, while b) is more a voluntary (free style) exercise. As I stated before, for our theme a) would be more aprobiate. As actual tasks I would suggest for a): a 'simple' sorting challenge given is - Input media - Input structure - input data (same data or all participants, randomly generated) - Type of sort algo to use (what about just a bubble ? :) - Output structur - Output media the score schould be made up from Execution time (mainly for the sort, but also for I/O) Programm length (again most points to be given on the sort itself) Style (readability, portability, maintainability) for b) a thing like a small multi tasking OS could be used, maybe for a controlling application (heating or traffic - or what about a model railroad setup ?) or other purposes ? (This could be chalenging, since these kind of tasks are maybe a bit tough for our little helpers :) So, you're opinion ? > BRING IT ON, MO FO! > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. MO FO ? I fear, I'll have to rub the lamp. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sat Apr 17 08:17:44 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: Dumb OS question Message-ID: <001901be88d4$ae3e10e0$1b3bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I recently found an ancient copy of QNX, which seems to be a light unix like OS. Looking on the WEB, I found that current versions are still around, but marketed as a "Real Time" OS. The 80's documentation I have says nothing about real time. My dumb question: What is a real time operating system? Hans Olminkhof From at258 at osfn.org Sat Apr 17 08:19:17 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: Unused Registers Was Re: OT: City Names In-Reply-To: <008a01be883c$21b86320$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: Well, the pronouns are the easiest example to hand: he she and it. There you have gender. English uses logical rather than grammatical gender usually, but ships addressed as she show this is not always true. If you want to follow tradition, a VAX would be neuter, because plurals in -n are old Anglo-Saxon neuter forms. Beyond pronouns, though, you don't use gender very much because the forms are the same. good (f), good (m), good (n) and good (c) all look the same in English. Look at the forms in French, and you'll see quite a difference, as in Latin. Middle English, I think, had some remnants of this, but they soon fell out of use. Something like King Horn might show some inflection still, or Northern dialect. Actually I think King Horn is Northumbrian. If you go back to The Ruin, or Beowulf, you should see quite a bit of inflection. > > > Well, no not really. Simply doesn't exist in English. Everything is > um, > > > neuter I guess, we don't have a term for it that we didn't pinch from > > > another language actually. > > > > We certainly do have gender, but usually the forms are identical. > > Oh? Can you give me an example? If so, it demonstrates that gender is > irrelevant in English I guess. > Perhaps it had gender once? I think Latin had gender and we use a lot of > Latin words. > > > Inflection in English is very restricted, compared say to German or the > > classical languages. > > Make it "virtually nonexistent" and I'll go along with that. > > > Since our adjectives have the same form for each gender, it's not > noticeable, > > and hasn't been that way for say 800 years > > or so. > > The existence of gender in English is not taught at school.. I'd remember > that. > I was exposed to French briefly in 1st Year High. It was the first time I > heard of the concept. > (Dropped it as irrelevant after a term and did Tech Drawing instead) > > Cheers > > Geoff Roberts > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Sat Apr 17 08:21:09 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT: City Names In-Reply-To: <008a01be883c$21b86320$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Apr 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote: You exposed yourself in a pair of French briefs? > The existence of gender in English is not taught at school.. I'd remember > that. > I was exposed to French briefly in 1st Year High. It was the first time I > heard of the concept. > (Dropped it as irrelevant after a term and did Tech Drawing instead) M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 17 08:41:39 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: Dumb OS question Message-ID: <990417094139.20c0075a@trailing-edge.com> >I recently found an ancient copy of QNX, which seems to be a light unix like >OS. > >Looking on the WEB, I found that current versions are still around, but >marketed as a "Real Time" OS. The 80's documentation I have says nothing >about real time. > >My dumb question: What is a real time operating system? It's not a dumb question! It is, in some respects, a very controversial question. In very general terms, a real time operating system is what is used when a response from the computer to an external event is required in a "timely" fashion. For example, if it's a fly-by-wire jet, and the pilot pulls the control stick back, you don't want the computer to delay in making the control surfaces move because the co-pilot is doing some lengthy navigational or fuel consumption calculations at the same time. For a multi-tasking operating system, this generally means two things: 1. When an external stimulus comes in, there has to be some way of making sure it will interrupt tasks of lower priority. 2. After the higher-priority task is started, it has to finish in a fairly predictable amount of time. Depending on the nature of the real-time task and/or the person defining "real-time", you also often find some further requirements. There are also folks who split the definition into "soft real-time", where it's OK if you're occasionally late with an answer or occasionally take too long to respond, and into "hard real-time", where the computer is never ever allowed to be late in responding or answering. Traditional Unices are not, by any measure, real-time operating systems. There are Unix-like OS's that are called "real-time operating systems", but many of the "hard real-timers" will disagree with this. A more modern approach to "real-timeliness" considers not only the main CPU, but also subsidiary CPU's and systems. For example, if a response to a stimulus requires doing any disk reads or writes, you may need to thoroughly know the worst-case response time of the disk drive. Modern disk drives (or even many disk drives from a decade ago) have microprocessors in them and for a truly safety-critical application it may be necessary to thoroughly review and qualify the firmware that's in the disk drive to be sure that it will always respond in a certain minimum amount of time. Some real-time operating systems can be pressed into service as general-purpose multi-user OS's. For example, RSX-11M. Others make quite nice single-user development platforms - for example RT-11. Modern network-in-the-kernel OS's are very difficult to turn into "real-time" systems with much functionality. You ever have a NFS server go down and tie up a campus full of workstations for minutes at a time? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Apr 16 23:18:18 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:14 2005 Subject: OT: City Names References: Message-ID: <002401be8889$597835e0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: Merle K. Peirce To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 10:51 PM Subject: Re: OT: City Names > On Sat, 17 Apr 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > You exposed yourself in a pair of French briefs? ROFLMAO > > The existence of gender in English is not taught at school.. I'd remember > > that. > > I was exposed to French briefly in 1st Year High. It was the first time I > > heard of the concept. Hmm, probably poor grammar. Perhaps "Briefly exposed to French...." would be more correct.... Cheers Geoff From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 17 08:49:39 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:15 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <001801be88d9$37606ea0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Kindly give the comments interleaved with your quoted message below a look. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 17, 1999 2:45 AM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >On Sat, 17 Apr 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >> >Ooh! A machine code competition. I'm in! I'll do the 6502 and whoop >> >EVERYONE'S ass! > Rules are a problem, aren't they? > >> And then you woke up. First what are the rules, 6502 or 65C02, code in Rom >> or Ram, what is the code supposed to do? > Well . . . There's the problem . . . first of all, the code's got to be executable on something everyone has got available, or it's got to be simulated on a simulator everyone has available, else there'll be a limit on interest right away . . . Then, shouldn't there be some consideration of the coding/debugging time involved? I'd lean in favor of a PC-compatible simulator. That makes the computation of actual execution time straightforward. . . and, of course, it's got to run the code on a "real" processor, not just a putative "we could build . . ." sort of thing, right? . . . well, maybe . . . Then there's the question about WHICH 6502 to use. Given a listing, it's easy enough to compute how long it takes the code to run, but which instruction set? What about undocumented features? Both these processors were famous for those. Of course, there doesn't have to be a limitation, i.e. one could consider ALL available cores. I'd propose it be a significant problem, but one which is well-defined, i.e. algorithms are published, hence the problem solution is well-defined, and I'd propose further that the same algorithm be used so we compare "apples with apples." As for the processor core, well, it's also got to be one everybody's got available, yet it wants to be one which WAS available in 1982. That might include the Synertek, MOS, and MAYBE the Rockwell core. We can't just say 65C02, because it was buillt in several conflicting versions. What about the Z-80 core? Whose? Which one? Speed, of course, should be "limited" to whatever was available in 1982. That certainly includes the Synertek (MOS Technology-comptible)"4MHz" 6502C (always worked fine at 5 MHz by then), as well as the Zilog Z-80B (6-MHz). Was the 8MHz part out in 1982? > >> My vote goes for something with some graphical element so we can "see" what >> is happening. (spinning ball, etc.) Whereas this might be "cute" it is very limiting, in that it has to be a graphics-capable environment available with both processors. It should not "fall" conveniently for either processor, so the graphics array should be large, and, AFAIK there's no such system for either processor. What should be done, here? Should we build a board? How do we measure how fast it's going? Remember, the hardware environment has to be more or less the same for both processors. >BRING IT ON, MO FO! > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 17 08:51:47 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:15 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <001b01be88d9$70141e40$0100c0a8@fuj03> Does the hardare need to be "real" or can it be simulated? That would make it less likely to favor one core over the other. If it's real, it has to be available to both processors and quite identical. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 17, 1999 2:26 AM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >>Ooh! A machine code competition. I'm in! I'll do the 6502 and whoop >>EVERYONE'S ass! > >And then you woke up. First what are the rules, 6502 or 65C02, code in Rom >or Ram, what is the code supposed to do? > >My vote goes for something with some graphical element so we can "see" what >is happening. (spinning ball, etc.) > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 17 08:56:15 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:15 2005 Subject: Coding chanllange (was: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <002001be88da$111e5080$0100c0a8@fuj03> It might, in fact, be interesting to see what limitations/enhancements the hardware features of the two processor types would impose. Interleaved display memory would effect both processors' ability to use memory, etc. I'd say it will difficult enough to come up with a problems suitable for a valid exercise without such difficulties. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 17, 1999 7:19 AM Subject: Coding chanllange (was: z80 timing... 6502 timing) >> > >Ooh! A machine code competition. I'm in! I'll do the 6502 and whoop >> > >EVERYONE'S ass! > >> > And then you woke up. First what are the rules, 6502 or 65C02, code in Rom >> > or Ram, what is the code supposed to do? > >Good point. > >> > My vote goes for something with some graphical element so we can "see" what >> > is happening. (spinning ball, etc.) > >Nice, but already to high level. >The task should be abstract enough to run within a simple >system, lets say a SBC system with CPU, some MEM and some >of the usual I/O&Controll stuff (Ports, Serial, Timer). > >Basicly there are two types of possible challanges: >a) implements some kind of standard code in a most speedy way, or >b) build some small, but sophisticated "real world" application. > >Challenge a) would meet the basic idea we had in our discusion: >define at what ratio two processors are equivalent when executing >a real task, while b) should be sophisticated enough to give a >'boh ey' (sound of exeptional admire) effect. > >In terms of a sportive competition a) would be a compulsatory >exercise, while b) is more a voluntary (free style) exercise. > >As I stated before, for our theme a) would be more aprobiate. > >As actual tasks I would suggest >for a): a 'simple' sorting challenge >given is >- Input media >- Input structure >- input data (same data or all participants, randomly generated) >- Type of sort algo to use (what about just a bubble ? :) >- Output structur >- Output media >the score schould be made up from >Execution time (mainly for the sort, but also for I/O) >Programm length (again most points to be given on the sort itself) >Style (readability, portability, maintainability) > >for b) a thing like a small multi tasking OS could be used, >maybe for a controlling application (heating or traffic - >or what about a model railroad setup ?) or other purposes ? >(This could be chalenging, since these kind of tasks are >maybe a bit tough for our little helpers :) > >So, you're opinion ? > >> BRING IT ON, MO FO! >> Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > >MO FO ? I fear, I'll have to rub the lamp. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Sat Apr 17 11:02:59 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:15 2005 Subject: Coding chanllange (was: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <002001be88da$111e5080$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <199904171403.QAA05298@horus.mch.sni.de> > It might, in fact, be interesting to see what limitations/enhancements the > hardware features of the two processor types would impose. Interleaved > display memory would effect both processors' ability to use memory, etc. > I'd say it will difficult enough to come up with a problems suitable for a > valid exercise without such difficulties. Jup, but if we start in rebuilding W95 on a 2 MHz Z80 SBC, I think we pass before any usable answer is generated. I think that a challenge should be performed on two simple almost identical out of the box systems - for the 6502 I'll sugest an KIM-1, while for the z80 a similar SBC should be easy to find. Just think, if we incooperate a specific hardwaredesign for graphics, we not only measur the programming capatibilities, but rather also the design genious of the engeneer. Just to start with the memory layout of the bitmap, the difference might be huge - if the display design fits the need of the programming challenge, this will have more influence on performance than the processor - and doing so, we are way out of scope. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 17 09:43:41 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:15 2005 Subject: 8" drive on a pc controller Message-ID: <199904171443.AA26589@world.std.com> Here we go again... I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS IDE. I said it was similar in <>respect that it was a bus level interface for a controller and predates < < Finding them can be tough. the 6mhz are more common. 8530s or 8330s are <>easier to find and offer better perfomance. <> . <> And then you woke up. First what are the rules, 6502 or 65C02, code in Ro <> or Ram, what is the code supposed to do? <> <> My vote goes for something with some graphical element so we can "see" wh <> is happening. (spinning ball, etc.) Grpahincs favor certain cpus but then we also ahve to specify the graphic interface as it may penelize some due to interface. Personally graphics are an issue unto themselves and seperate A possible list of micros for that era, I used 1982 as a cutoff date: 8bitters: 6502 z80 8080 8085 2650 1802 SC/MP 6800 (01/02/03, 6803) 6809 8048 8049 8051 z8 uPD 7800 (7800, 7811) 16bit or larger: TI9900 808x 6800x 16032 z8000 T-11 (PDP-11 in a 40 pin dip and not the F11.) 1600 9440 uFlame Pace/8900 No doubt I've missed a few. Let the war begin. Allison From a2k at one.net Sat Apr 17 09:45:14 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:15 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sure they're useful to anyone. My first computer, a TRS-80 CoCo, was given to me by my parents in 1990 or 1991... quite a while after they had gone out of style (They got it at a garage sale for $90 or something). I didn't get any magazines with it, but I did get loads of books... that first day, I must have gotten through the first 5 chapters in the BASIC programming book.. and I had a ball with it. People at Rat Snack laughed at me and told me to get a REAL copmuter (286 or 386..heh), that I couldn't do anything with this machine... I laughed at them because I had hours of fun playing Space Invaders, Shooting Gallery and Wildcatting (I actually still have that cart, even though I no longer have the computer :( )... and then came my second computer, and apple IIe :) Kevin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After sifting through the overwritten remaining blocks of Luke's home directory, Luke and PDP-1 sped away from /u/lars, across the surface of the Winchester riding Luke's flying read/write head. PDP-1 had Luke stop at the edge of the cylinder overlooking /usr/spool/uucp. "Unix-to-Unix Copy Program;" said PDP-1. "You will never find a more wretched hive of bugs and flamers. We must be cautious." -- DECWARS ____________________________________________________________________ | Kevin Stewart | "I am a secret | | KC8BLL ----------| Wrapped in a mystery -Milford High School | | a2k@one.net | Wrapped in an enigma Drama Tech Dept. | |jlennon@nether.net| And drizzled in some tasty chocolate stuff.| -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > However, for people starting out, getting their first computer, they are > > going to want to be able to use the software from the local PC shop. > > They're going to want to be able to use the 'learn to use your home > > computer' type magazines. And, unfortuantely, you can't use a PDPx or a > > PERQ or a TRS-80 or an Apple ][ or a PET or a BBC or a ... for any of > > that. Sure _we_ can get these machines to do useful work, but probably > > others can't. > > Sure, anyone can. Just deliver them an old home computer with a stack of > books and magazines that were published around it and they could figure > anything out. You can find old issues of Nibble, Incider, A+ for the > Apple ][ in lots of places. I'm sure the prevailing magazines for the > other common machines can be found just as easily. Of course a PERQ or > PDP would be a different story, but the home micros are well documented. > > > I'm even more amazed by the amount of test equipment that I've been given > > as 'beyond repair' that's had trivial faults. It's one thing that the > > little-old-lady can't fix the TV (even if the only fault is a wire off in > > the plug), but an electronic engineer who can't find an blown fuse in > > some expensive piece of equipment? What is this world coming to? > > I've gotten some real good test equipment that had only trivial faults for > real cheap. Now to find those faults and fix them :) > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > From a2k at one.net Sat Apr 17 09:51:38 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:15 2005 Subject: x86, x86 everywhere, but... (was OT: Re: Time to declare State of MA) In-Reply-To: <199904170536.BAA28015@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: > I would have been thrilled to get any kind of computer when I was > in high school. So it is hard for me to imagine people willing to > throw away _any_ computer. But now I am starting to see that XT's > and 286's are like paper cups. Not only do they tend to work less > well as they age (they eventually break and lack support from their > manufacturers), but they are really next to valueless in terms of > replacement cost. Even if getting a computer to somebody who is What? Valueless? Not at all. Get an XT or an 286, give it a 10 or 20 meg HD, throw a 10BaseT network card in it (I have those coming out of my ears, thanks to all my friends!), install Minix on it, and make it a node on your friendly house-hold network. Or forget the network card and use a serial port to connect it to your friendly house-hold Linux or UN*X machine! They make splendid dumb terminals... my first BBSing machine was an old XT, 2 Floppies, no HD, a 2400 baud modem and a copy of Mirror II (Comms program)... all green, but hey, it was great for using Cserve and checking my mails. Valueless? I think not. Just my $.05... what with inflation, taxes, shipping & handling and all.. Kevin From KFergason at aol.com Sat Apr 17 09:56:20 1999 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:15 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <51665dd4.2449fb14@aol.com> > <> And then you woke up. First what are the rules, 6502 or 65C02, code in Ro > <> or Ram, what is the code supposed to do? > <> > <> My vote goes for something with some graphical element so we can "see" wh > <> is happening. (spinning ball, etc.) > My vote would be to implement an algorithm. Of course, which algorithm would a gruesome discussion. Kelly From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Sat Apr 17 11:59:22 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:15 2005 Subject: Power Frequency In-Reply-To: <199904171444.AA26782@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199904171500.RAA06721@horus.mch.sni.de> > The key item is that motors and transformers are physically smaller > for same or similar VA capability with increasing frequency. there is a > corner you turn as you go higher though as the iron in the course gets > lossier and line radiation increses losses. So power distrubution has > the 50/60 as a good bet. Note aircraft use 400nz for the compact > transformers and reduced filtering in rectifiec circuits. Jep, when it comes to internal systems of vehicles often higher frequencies are used - for example, the 'new' (already 10 years old) Siemens low floor tram cars (2 phases motors, electronicly converted from 750V DC) now offer some 240V outlets for maintanance equippment - but with 100 Hz .. so some eq will behave different :) > There were also > 25, 30 and 40hz systems. The NY subway at one time was 25Hz and the DEC > mill prior to refurb in the 80s was 40hz (that power also lighted part of > the town.) at one point in history. Now, if we are going for exotic ideas (from todays point of viev), we have to mention the German Overhead wire system with 15kV and 16 2/3 Hz (Also used in Swizerland, Austria, some parts of Poland, Czech Republik, Luxembourg, Netherlands and Denmark). The key idea has been to develop a AC system (to allow transformation), while still using AC motors - remember, the German system was developed very early, and speed controll of AC motors was still a problem - at this time, most Countries decided to go for pure AC, with all problems - From a2k at one.net Sat Apr 17 10:01:09 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:15 2005 Subject: Education vs. School (was Re: OT: City Names) In-Reply-To: <000001be8873$c0d8c1c0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: > I believe so. I also believe he is correct, especially in view of some of > the products of the alleged education system I have seen in recent years. > We're talking Year 12's that can't spell to save their life, or do simple > arithmetic without a calculator. It's a worry. > > Cheers > > Geoff > I agree. I'm in grade 9, and to quote from the Hacker's Manifesto "... this shit they teach us bores me.. you fed us baby food when we hungered for steak, and the few bits that you did let through were pre-chewed and tasteless..." Some people just don't want to learn, but then there are other, like me, that crave knowledge. I'm in an intensive math class... and it literally bores that shit out of me. I sleep through an A, while the teacher, who proclaims that she hates teaching (no joke.."... or doesn't like teaching and shouldn't be here..."), has the students guess the next line in the song she's singing stead of teaching us. Meanwhile, I'm reading a book from the school library's extensive mathematics section (that nobody has ever checked out) to teach myself what she won't teach us. I'm reading a quite interesting book right now entitled "An Imaginary Tale: Understanding Imaginary Numbers." There are some that want to learn, like me, and *don't* let schooling get in the way of education. Kevin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After sifting through the overwritten remaining blocks of Luke's home directory, Luke and PDP-1 sped away from /u/lars, across the surface of the Winchester riding Luke's flying read/write head. PDP-1 had Luke stop at the edge of the cylinder overlooking /usr/spool/uucp. "Unix-to-Unix Copy Program;" said PDP-1. "You will never find a more wretched hive of bugs and flamers. We must be cautious." -- DECWARS ____________________________________________________________________ | Kevin Stewart | "I am a secret | | KC8BLL ----------| Wrapped in a mystery -Milford High School | | a2k@one.net | Wrapped in an enigma Drama Tech Dept. | |jlennon@nether.net| And drizzled in some tasty chocolate stuff.| -------------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 17 10:11:29 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:15 2005 Subject: Dumb OS question Message-ID: <199904171511.AA14747@world.std.com> <65C02, because it was buillt in several conflicting versions. What about >But it's overhead is trivial and well enough understood as to mean little. > >IT would be more of a challenge if each person supporting a processor had >to use a different one. That would be a true learning experience. > >As to hardware... I cheat. I have SBCs for most common cpus. > >1976 imp48 8048 (cute little sbc with tape IO, TTY, relays) >1977 8048 from byte 8048 (this was an 8035 with a mini front pannel) >1980 8051 8751 (basically a 8051 SBC with monitor) >1978 SC/mp ISP8A500 (sc/mp I) >1979 National TBX 8073 (SC/MP II with tiny basic) >1977 COSMAC ELF base 1802 (quest board) >1976 6800d1 6800 >1977 kim1 6502 >1983 Telvideo 905 R65c02 (card from terminal, good as SBC!) >1978 8x300 proto 8x300 (signetics) >1981 SDK78 7800 (nec propritary) >1981 78pg11 Protoboard 78pg11 (NEC propritary) >1979 Tk80 8080 >1980 explorer8085 8085 (base card has 8085, ram and rom) >1980 Computime CPUZ z80 (s100 card with 1k ram, serial, eprom z80) >1981 Vt180 Z80 (z80, 64k, 4 serial, FDC, Eprom, RTC) >1981 Hurikon MLZ92 Z80 (Z80, mmu, 64k ram, eprom, serial,FDC) >1978 INtersil sampler (6100, 256w ram, rom, serial) >1982 29116 proto 29116/2911 proto for bitblitter >1982 Z8001 proto z8001 (z8001, 16k ram, 16k eprom, serial) >1982 Falcon T-11 (pdp11 chip, ram, parallel, serial, rom) >1979 SSS technico TI9900 (9900, ram, rom, serial) >1986 Advice 78032 (uVAXII, serial, 96k ram, 512k rom) > The advice was used in 87 to assist the MV2000 design! > > All are classics, only the Advice wasn't available in '83. > > Now if I wanted to get exotic, I have a load of 2901/2911s with date > codes pre 1980. Also 29116s (pre 83). Also enough raw 8748/9 and 8751 > parts to do a major hack (maybe 50 or 60 of each). the 8749s are the > slower 1982 parts that only run at 11mhz (instruction cycle time of > 1.36uS) However with the prior to 1982 limit sthere are no sortage of > choices. > > I'm not above using multiple cpus to do the task or mixing several > different ones. > >Allison > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sat Apr 17 14:56:38 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: Power Frequency References: Message-ID: <008a01be890c$6fd697e0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Sunday, April 18, 1999 3:27 AM Subject: Re: Power Frequency > We had strange mains voltages and freqeuncies until the 1950's/1960's. > IIRC the last 100Hz (!) generator in England was at Lynmouth, and it > lasted until the serious floods there in 1952 (?). The mains voltage in > England, even for a 50Hz AC supply, could vary between 200V and 250V > depending on the area that you lived in, and multi-tapped transformer > primaries were common. I think we even had DC mains until that sort of > date as well (judging from the number of 1950's radios and TVs with > settings for DC mains). The only non-standard mains freq I can recall was in Broken Hill. NSW. The huge mines there generated their own power, (it's a little isolated, 300 miles from ANYwhere) and they ran the employees homes in the south of the town off that for many years, it was supplied free to mine employees. When the town got it's own generating capacity most of the non mine houses switched to that. The nonstandard bit was that the mine power was 40 hz, not by choice, but because an engineer screwed up the calculations and ordered the wrong hardware (not sure what, possibly transformers IIRC). Result was town power, 240 50hz but you paid for it (Diesel Gensets, not cheap) or mine power, 240v 40hz, but free of charge, but which drove TV's record players and electric clocks slightly whacky. Some people went to the expense of having specially modded motors put into their turntables! The practice finally ceased in the 80's when commercial power from the state grid finally reached the region and the Galena St and Mine power stations were decommissioned. > > US NTSC is 525 line 60hz PAL 625 line 50hz. We use PAL. (There are all > > kinds of wierd variations, including a version of PAL with a 60hz field rate > > in South America somewhere - Brazil I think) > > Indeed. It's PAL-M (525 line, 60Hz vertical, 3.5...MHz subcarrier). > There's also PAL-N (South Africa?) with 625 lines, 50Hz vertical, and > 3.5... MHz subcarrier. S/C 3.58Mhz like the NTSC stuff I imagine. All our broadcast transmission stuff is PAL-D, with PAL-S compatibility, 625/50 4.43Mhz s/carrier. Our Channel spacing is different (5.5Mhz) and so are our freq allocations. For instance we still have TV channels in what is entirely an FM broadcast band elsewhere. Causes probs for people who buy VCR's in Singapore only to discover they can't pick up our local commercial station. (Ch4 is 100.7 audio, 95.? Video) I have a couple of Apple IIc colour monitors that are NTSC, only work with the computers, might be handy if I ever have to play an NTSC tape. (If I had a NTSC VCR to do it with that is) Cheers Geoff Roberts From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 18 00:39:31 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: shipping floppy disk drives In-Reply-To: <199904180232.WAA02260@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Apr 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > I'll be shipping a few floppy disk drives soon, and want to minimize > the shipping damage to them. So, is it better to ship them with the > drive door open or closed? And with or without a floppy inserted? With floppy inserted and drive door closed. It keeps the heads from bouncing around. Those white paper inserts you see once in a while did have a purpose after all. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 18 00:54:59 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: Education vs. School (was Re: OT: City Names) In-Reply-To: <37195E35.689626A9@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > On Sat, 17 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > There are some that want to learn, like me, and *don't* let schooling > > > > get in the way of education. > > > > > > A word of warning, from bitter experience. At least in the UK, what > > > matters, when you come to look for a job, etc is _not_ what you know, or > > > what you can do, it's what bits of paper you have. So make sure you do > > > get some official qualifications in whatever you've learnt. > > > > I would never go to work for a company that would judge me based on the > > schooling I've had, nor will I ever. > > The pieces of paper are quite useful for getting in the door and can be > looked at as a key to open the door. What you do once inside will have an > effect on future jobs you may (or may not!) be able to get into. Well, call me lucky but I never had a piece of paper to rely on, and I still managed to do all right. What I'm saying is that people shouldn't think they need a degree just to make a good living for themselves, or even to reach the highest levels of success. I feel strongly about this because I don't want the younger people reading these threads thinking their future hinges on their earning a degree in college, when they very well could be spending their time pursuing their own goals, not those that society has determined for them. The world is a changing place, now more so than ever. The old paradigm of "go to school, get a job, live happily ever after" does not apply any longer, and has been slowly on the way out since the late 80s, coincidentally as the world started to become more connected. Ever hear of that thing called the "Information Age"? It's not a cliche. Getting in the door is a matter of how well you sell yourself, regardless of how many "pieces of paper" you bring with you. And nobody ever said one couldn't build ones own doors. Confidence in one's own self is the only tool one needs to be successful. Really. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 18 01:02:17 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <001501be8954$b5d13f00$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I want to distance myself from the majority of this nonsense. Building a Well, since you launched us all into this nonsense its pretty hypocritical of you to want to back away from it now. > simple computer with a processor, a ROM, a full compliment of RAM, and a > serial console interface is a 10-minute design and a 90-minute fabrication > task. If it's designed to fit already existing firmware/software, it's even > more or less practical to fit it into that firmware or software's > understanding of what the hardware is that fits with it. That means that an > operating system might be straighforward to accomplish in a day or two if > there's software in the form of a decent monitor or OS to support it. Sure! Let's have a driving contest to see who can drive the fastest, but first we all have to build our own cars. THAT MAKES AN AMAZING AMOUNT OF SENSE! > implementation. I'm sure most people in any way familiar with the things we > had to do back in the '70's will agree, that, from a hardware standpoint, > building a single-board system with 64K SRAM, Whatever size of EPROM you > like, overlapping it and disabled when copied into RAM, and a serial port is > a no-brainer, requiring , as I previously said, about 90 minutes to > wire-wrap. It might take longer if you have to find the parts. If you use Sure, and open heart surgery is a pretty straightforward operation for an experienced doctor, but we're not all experienced doctors. Dick, you're amazing. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 18 01:17:41 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: the aftermath Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990417231741.00ad4750@agora.rdrop.com> For those who have never witnessed the diversity and chaos that has been Paxton's warehouse, pictures taken today during the auction are available at: http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/Paxton/P0??.JPG (where ?? = 06 thru 42) The last few are shots of the collective bootie that the local gang took out. (and yes, its as chaotic as it looks in the pictures!) I'll probably arrange it into a more normal web page in the next few days. For my part, I managed to nab a pair of HP 1000F minicomputers (CPU cabinets only), a Tek 4006 terminal, a DEC TU-81+ tape drive and RA-81 hard drive, a Freiden computerized postage scale, a case of toner kits for DEC LN-03/Scriptwriter printers, a Tektronix Type 230 'Digital Unit', an HP-9000 computer, a DEC MINC-11, and some other assorted goodies. 20 points extra if you can tell us why the unit in this picture: http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/Paxton/P049.JPG had enough significance to rank fairly high on my 'nab' list... More to come... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From spc at armigeron.com Sun Apr 18 01:39:58 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <199904180639.CAA30085@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3663 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/1067c2c5/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Sun Apr 18 01:44:48 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <199904180639.CAA30085@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Apr 18, 99 02:39:58 am Message-ID: <199904180644.CAA30192@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 577 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/dc6319f1/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Apr 18 01:57:29 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: Ancient disk controllers Message-ID: <19990418065729.27293.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > see below, please. > > Dick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks > >> 20MHz/4 = 5MHz = standard ST506 data rate. > > > >Right. It's the right rate for an 8" disk. > > > Nope, it's not! the right rate for 8" Winchesters is 4.34 MHz! Damn! Typo. I *know* that the 8" disk transfer rate is below 5Mhz. The recent coverage of the WD-1001's were quite explicit in that regard. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Apr 18 01:55:23 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: the aftermath In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990417231741.00ad4750@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990417235523.00965b60@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 23:17 17-04-1999 -0700, Jim Willing wrote: >20 points extra if you can tell us why the unit in this picture: > >http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/Paxton/P049.JPG > >had enough significance to rank fairly high on my 'nab' list... I can't be 100% certain, but is not that an early digitizer, useful with vintage Tek O-scopes? BTW, I may be interested in that Frieden scale you got if you're not going to use it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 18 02:01:43 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: the aftermath In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990417235523.00965b60@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Apr 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > >20 points extra if you can tell us why the unit in this picture: > > > >http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/Paxton/P049.JPG > > > >had enough significance to rank fairly high on my 'nab' list... > > I can't be 100% certain, but is not that an early digitizer, useful with > vintage Tek O-scopes? Damn, now how come I seem to be the only one that can't seem to access Jim's site? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 18 02:06:02 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: the aftermath In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990417235523.00965b60@mail.bluefeathertech.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19990417231741.00ad4750@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990418000602.00ebe100@agora.rdrop.com> At 11:55 PM 4/17/99 -0700, Bruce Lane wrote: >At 23:17 17-04-1999 -0700, Jim Willing wrote: > >>20 points extra if you can tell us why the unit in this picture: >> >>http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/Paxton/P049.JPG >> >>had enough significance to rank fairly high on my 'nab' list... > > I can't be 100% certain, but is not that an early digitizer, useful with >vintage Tek O-scopes? Well, it may well be... but that was not the reason... B^} (actually, I have no clue just what the thing does...) -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 18 02:07:05 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: the aftermath In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 17 Apr 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > > > >20 points extra if you can tell us why the unit in this picture: > > > > > >http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/Paxton/P049.JPG > > > > > >had enough significance to rank fairly high on my 'nab' list... > > > > I can't be 100% certain, but is not that an early digitizer, useful with > > vintage Tek O-scopes? > > Damn, now how come I seem to be the only one that can't seem to access > Jim's site? I found the culprit: Tracing route to mail.computergarage.org [209.162.216.121] over a maximum of 30 hops: 8 45 ms 29 ms 36 ms core1.Seattle.cw.net [204.70.4.165] 9 40 ms 41 ms 30 ms border4-fddi-0.Seattle.cw.net [204.70.3.147] 10 * easy-street-online.Seattle.cw.net [204.70.55.18] reports: Destination net unreachable. Wacky. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 18 03:15:21 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: the aftermath In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990417231741.00ad4750@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: I'm rather partial to the following picture: http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/Paxton/P038.JPG what it doesn't show is that behind all that was a DECmate III still the box. I pulled it out once I got home, and it looks to be brand new. Hopefully I can get a working system without a lot of work :^) Me, I ended up with the pile of DECmate III's, a "Woz" Apple IIgs, some manuals, a box of circuit boards, a bunch of 8" floppies, a couple core planes, misc. trash, a couple "Ampro Little board computers" or something like that, and probably some other stuff I've forgotten about. Hope to spend some time tomorrow recovering from all the "fun". Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 18 02:19:42 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: Filler panels for a DEC MINC-11? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990418001942.00ec0530@agora.rdrop.com> The subject just about says it all... I just rescued one from the Paxton auction, and one of the filler panels in the lab module section is missing. Anyone got a spare? (or some neat modules? or some docs... or....) -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From spc at armigeron.com Sun Apr 18 02:14:48 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <199904180639.CAA30085@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Apr 18, 99 02:39:58 am Message-ID: <199904180714.DAA30753@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4296 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/18db33fb/attachment.ksh From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Apr 18 02:20:53 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: OT: City Names In-Reply-To: <014801be8846$91abdb80$f17d38cb@helpdesk> References: Message-ID: <199904180720.RAA10542@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 05:50 17/04/99 +0930, Geoff Roberts wrote: >Classic example is a US exchange student we had here in the 70's. >She was nearly ready to go home before many of us figured out her name was >"Carol" and not "Kerryl" which is how it sounded to us. Well I was at an American run management course last year in Newcastle. One of the (male) attendees made the comment that he was cold and that he was going to get a jumper. This caused a hysterical reaction by one of the female presenters - apparently from her part of the USA a jumper is a dress! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Apr 18 02:31:49 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: Unused Registers Was Re: OT: City Names In-Reply-To: References: <008a01be883c$21b86320$f17d38cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <199904180731.RAA10575@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 09:19 17/04/99 -0400, Merle K. Peirce wrote: >If you want to follow tradition, a VAX would be neuter, because plurals >in -n are old Anglo-Saxon neuter forms. That's assuming that you think the plural of VAX is VAXen, I'm a VAXes person myself. There's also an argument that the plural should be spelt VAXs. As a modern acronym you can't really apply traditional rules for the plural(eg, VAX becomes VAXen because OX becomes OXen), it's just a matter of accepted usage. No wimping out here by using expressions like "VAX computers" either. I feel that this discussion is more on-topic that most of those that we've had recently. One of the things I've learnt is that people from different parts of the world use English very differently and sometimes leads to misunderstandings. One I remember well was an Australian DECUS presentation where the (female) Digital engineer was talking about DZ-11s (this wasn't either Allison or Megan was it?). After pronouncing it correctly (as far as English/Australian audience were concerned where Z is pronounced zed) she finally admitted that this felt so pretentious that it would be zee from now on! I'd been around quite a while before I realized that in America EZ sounds like easy.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Apr 18 02:58:03 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: Amiga 2000HD Hard disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Apr 1999, LordTyran wrote: > Well, actually it's a GVP card I believe... the original owner changed it > when the first controller went bad. So have you tried starting HDToolBox with a tool-type of SCSI_DEVICE_NAME=gvpscsi.device yet? I think that was the usual name for the scsi.device equivalent on GVP cards. For DKB cards, it's (unsurprisingly) dkbscsi.device. I have a Ferret SCSI-II controller in my A1200. (For some strange reason, scsi.device in the A1200 actually drives IDE instead of SCSI.) > Thanks, > Kevin -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From gram at cnct.com Sun Apr 18 03:10:15 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: OT: City Names In-Reply-To: <199904180720.RAA10542@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Huw Davies wrote: > Well I was at an American run management course last year in Newcastle. One > of the (male) attendees made the comment that he was cold and that he was > going to get a jumper. This caused a hysterical reaction by one of the > female presenters - apparently from her part of the USA a jumper is a dress! Farzino, a "jumper" is a dress anywhere in the US, specifically a dress of a style rarely worn once puberty kicks in. Possibly the standardisation of that nomenclature resulted from the fact that that's what was used in the old Sears-Roebuck catalogs that were distributed nationwide. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From mikeford at netwiz.net Sat Apr 17 23:17:35 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:17 2005 Subject: Using HP-UX, the book In-Reply-To: <001b01be88d1$c20c9720$0180a8c0@zeus> References: <01be8893$e05fd720$7a9ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: I picked this book up when I bought some mac stuff the other day thinking someone on the list might want it. Might be more like it (3 fat volumes, but I didn't check the titles closely yet). $2 and shipping to the first who asks for it. Hewlett Packard HP 9000 workstations, Using HP-UX Book covers the 1987 to 1992 versions, and looks like the sort of thing to keep next to the computer while you learn to do the basics (copying files, email, etc.). 9000 workstations, series 300, 400, and 700 computers. From mikeford at netwiz.net Sun Apr 18 00:05:19 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: References: <001801be88d9$37606ea0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: >This would not be limited to the 6502. The idea is to see who can come up >with the most efficient algorithm on any processor. You mean I won't get points for comments that rhyme? From mikeford at netwiz.net Sun Apr 18 00:17:08 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: OT Was z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19990417114044.007b2b10@pop.tvec.net> Message-ID: >> BTW, my money's on Tony. > >There you go, we can open up a betting pool on this too. The best challenge I have seen is what the people who wrote Doom do (sorry I forget the names etc., but its in one of my Doom books). The challenge of the sour milk. Basically they let a glass of milk go sour, then the loser of a deathmatch has to drink it. Motivation is very high. Apparently the revulsion level of sour milk increases with exposure too. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sat Apr 17 18:51:01 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: OT: City Names References: Message-ID: <01bb01be892d$27d29b80$f17d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: Ward D. Griffiths III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Sunday, April 18, 1999 5:40 PM Subject: Re: OT: City Names > On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Huw Davies wrote: > > > Well I was at an American run management course last year in Newcastle. One > > of the (male) attendees made the comment that he was cold and that he was > > going to get a jumper. This caused a hysterical reaction by one of the > > female presenters - apparently from her part of the USA a jumper is a dress! > > Farzino, a "jumper" is a dress anywhere in the US, specifically a > dress of a style rarely worn once puberty kicks in. Possibly the > standardisation of that nomenclature resulted from the fact that > that's what was used in the old Sears-Roebuck catalogs that were > distributed nationwide. So a "jumper" (Aus-speak) is a, um, uh, "pullover" in (US-speak)? Old joke:- Q: What do you call a cross between a sheep and a kangaroo? A: A woolly jumper. Cheers Geoff Roberts From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 18 06:01:12 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: CP/M as an RTOS (was Re: Dumb OS question) In-Reply-To: <199904180357.AA03565@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199904180357.AA03565@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19990418110112.28418.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > Which some old timers to comp.os.cpm may remember the firestorm when > I called CP/M a file system and not an OS... ;) CP/M wasn't bad for its day, and I was rather fond of it at the time (compared to some of the feeble crap that other companies were putting out, such as Ohio Scientific's OS-65D), but I'd have to concur with your assessment of it. I've provoked some major flames myself by calling MS-DOS a feeble excuse for a program loader. But in reality I have to admit that MS-DOS is more functional than CP/M. However, MS-DOS loses if you compare functionality per byte of memory consumed. By that metric, hardly anything that I've seen would even come close to DEC's OS/8. Eric From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 18 06:33:18 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: Apple HAL XEBEC controller In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: Apple HAL XEBEC controller" (Apr 17, 12:26) References: <000601be88ff$cfe238e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <9904181233.ZM5963@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 17, 12:26, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Subject: Re: Apple HAL XEBEC controller > Xebec made a number of "specialized" bridge controllers, which fit between > the host adapter, which is what you've described, in this case possibly > intended to go to a compatible version of their 14xx-series controllers > which, in turn, provides a SCSI interface to an ST506 drive, which you > apparently have on hand. Yes, though AFAIK all the Xebec controllers of that era are SASI, not SCSI. > It is likely that the 26-pin connector is to the Apple II version of SCSI > which was put out back then on a 25-pin DB-25 connector. Sounds logical. Anyone got the pinouts? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 18 06:37:35 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: Apple HAL XEBEC controller In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail "Re: Apple HAL XEBEC controller" (Apr 17, 13:57) References: Message-ID: <9904181237.ZM5967@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 17, 13:57, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Subject: Re: Apple HAL XEBEC controller > On Sat, 17 Apr 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > Does it need any other software (like a formatting disk)? The on-board 4K > > EPROM contains only the strings "(C) HAL COMPUTERS LTD 1983", "A/XHAL > > SHARED RESOURCE WINCHESTER SYSTEM", "NOT CONNECTED", and "SRS ERROR", so I > > guess there would have been a floppy with it, originally. > > What in these strings leads you to believe it would have been connected to > a floppy? It was strictly a hard drive interface. Erm, nothing, Sellam. I *didn't* suggest it could *connect* to a floppy drive; I think there may have been a supplementary floppy disk containing (at least) a formatter, since those are the *only* strings in the ROM. It looks like it's just boot/driver code, so I think there must be some other way to format the (winchester) drive. I know you have a lot of Apple ][ stuff. Anything like this? Do you have a pinout for any contemporary Apple ][ SASI/SCSI interface? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 18 06:22:04 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: shipping floppy disk drives In-Reply-To: Bill Yakowenko "shipping floppy disk drives" (Apr 17, 22:32) References: <199904180232.WAA02260@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <9904181222.ZM5957@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 17, 22:32, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Subject: shipping floppy disk drives > I'll be shipping a few floppy disk drives soon, and want to minimize > the shipping damage to them. So, is it better to ship them with the > drive door open or closed? And with or without a floppy inserted? If they're single-sided, it doesn't matter much. If double-sided, then open with no disk is fine, so long as the mechanism can't be jolted into letting the upper head hit the lower one. This is pretty well true of most 3.5" drives, and they're usually shipped like that. On some 5.25" drives, though, the door or lever could be moved, so inserting a floppy and closing the door may be better. I'd suggest putting it in back-to-front (or use a sheet of thick card with a hole in the middle) to improve the cushioning effect. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 18 06:51:27 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: Apple HAL XEBEC controller In-Reply-To: <9904181237.ZM5967@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > so I > > > guess there would have been a floppy with it, originally. > > > > What in these strings leads you to believe it would have been connected > to > > a floppy? It was strictly a hard drive interface. > > Erm, nothing, Sellam. I *didn't* suggest it could *connect* to a floppy > drive; I think there may have been a supplementary floppy disk containing > (at least) a formatter, since those are the *only* strings in the ROM. It Oops, sorry. I misread that. > looks like it's just boot/driver code, so I think there must be some other > way to format the (winchester) drive. You are correct. Generally the Xebec interfaces were used with the Sider hard drives (at least those are the only drives I've ever seen them used with) and they came with utilities on floppies for partitioning and formatting the drive. > I know you have a lot of Apple ][ stuff. Anything like this? Do you have > a pinout for any contemporary Apple ][ SASI/SCSI interface? I don't think this is SASI since the actual hard drive is a ST-225 or equivalent. More like MFM. I don't think I have the pinout, but then my Sider manuals are stored away somewhere, and I don't know that they would necessarily have any technical info for the Xebec card. Are you wanting to use it to hook a hard drive up to your Apple ][? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 18 06:53:13 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: shipping floppy disk drives In-Reply-To: <9904181222.ZM5957@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 17, 22:32, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > > Subject: shipping floppy disk drives > > I'll be shipping a few floppy disk drives soon, and want to minimize > > the shipping damage to them. So, is it better to ship them with the > > drive door open or closed? And with or without a floppy inserted? > > If they're single-sided, it doesn't matter much. If double-sided, then > open with no disk is fine, so long as the mechanism can't be jolted into > letting the upper head hit the lower one. This is pretty well true of most > 3.5" drives, and they're usually shipped like that. On some 5.25" drives, > though, the door or lever could be moved, so inserting a floppy and closing > the door may be better. I'd suggest putting it in back-to-front (or use a > sheet of thick card with a hole in the middle) to improve the cushioning > effect. I've seen plastic shipping inserts for 3.5" drives. To be safe, I'd try to get one of these inserts for shipping the 3.5" as well. Maybe a local computer store would have some. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From at258 at osfn.org Sun Apr 18 07:14:05 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: Unused Registers Was Re: OT: City Names In-Reply-To: <199904180731.RAA10575@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: Yes, I've always thought the eccentricities of language quite fascinating. The contrast between some British spellings and pronunciation as an example. And really on target, as speech is really the OS for an organic computing engine, over 10 years old. I tend to see Vaxen more than Vaxes, but variant forms simply add a note of interest. As far as -n goes, IT is ancient, and it doesn't matter how new the root is. I've always thought that unusual plural added a touch of class to the DEC line, even if it might be a bit precious. On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Huw Davies wrote: > At 09:19 17/04/99 -0400, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > >If you want to follow tradition, a VAX would be neuter, because plurals > >in -n are old Anglo-Saxon neuter forms. > > That's assuming that you think the plural of VAX is VAXen, I'm a VAXes > person myself. There's also an argument that the plural should be spelt > VAXs. As a modern acronym you can't really apply traditional rules for the > plural(eg, VAX becomes VAXen because OX becomes OXen), it's just a matter > of accepted usage. No wimping out here by using expressions like "VAX > computers" either. > > I feel that this discussion is more on-topic that most of those that we've > had recently. One of the things I've learnt is that people from different > parts of the world use English very differently and sometimes leads to > misunderstandings. One I remember well was an Australian DECUS presentation > where the (female) Digital engineer was talking about DZ-11s (this wasn't > either Allison or Megan was it?). After pronouncing it correctly (as far as > English/Australian audience were concerned where Z is pronounced zed) she > finally admitted that this felt so pretentious that it would be zee from > now on! I'd been around quite a while before I realized that in America EZ > sounds like easy.... > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au > Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 > 1999 > La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Apr 18 07:25:58 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: DEC RA81 need quick answer In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 17, 1999 7: 1:47 pm" Message-ID: <199904181226.IAA02374@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > > > > At 20:09 16/04/99 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >On a DEC RA81 how do you tell if the heads have been locked? Or how do you > > >lock the heads? > > > > OK, open the top cover (there's a lock on the front which you need to poke > > with a screwdriver). Upon opening you will see a white plastic lever which > > will either point to the work lock or not (writing cast into the HDA). I > > seem to recall that the correct way to lock the heads is with the disk > > spinning but I also seem to recall some argument to do this with the disk > > IIRC, when you move that locking lever, you force the heads to one side > of the disk. If they're not already in the right spot and the disk isn't > spinning, you will scrape the heads across the disks. Not a good idea. > > I was always told to lock the heads with the drive spinning (and ditto > for inserting the head clamp on an SA4000). > > -tony > > > But if you spin up and down the disk -- they SHOULD be in the correct landing zone, shouldn't they? Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From steverob at hotoffice.com Sun Apr 18 08:02:23 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: All this OT stuff... Message-ID: <01BE897A.2CF12850.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Saturday, April 17, 1999 7:43 PM, Christian Fandt [SMTP:cfandt@netsync.net] wrote: > Upon the date 12:02 AM 4/17/99 -0700, Bruce Lane said something like: > > > > > HOWEVER -- Am I the only one getting -really- fed up with all the 'OT:' > >and 'Re: OT' subject lines and off-topic messages? > Ditto! Steve Robertson - From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Apr 18 09:18:54 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: the aftermath In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990417231741.00ad4750@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990418091854.22b7b45a@intellistar.net> Jim, Was it an auction or a sale? I see a lot of stuff with prices on it. The prices I see are cheap. Not at all like Paxton's prices! I see lots of stuff in your pictures that wasn't there when I visited him last year. Joe At 11:17 PM 4/17/99 -0700, you wrote: >For those who have never witnessed the diversity and chaos that has been >Paxton's warehouse, pictures taken today during the auction are available at: > >http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/Paxton/P0??.JPG (where ?? = 06 thru 42) > >The last few are shots of the collective bootie that the local gang took out. >(and yes, its as chaotic as it looks in the pictures!) >I'll probably arrange it into a more normal web page in the next few days. > >For my part, I managed to nab a pair of HP 1000F minicomputers (CPU >cabinets only), a Tek 4006 terminal, a DEC TU-81+ tape drive and RA-81 hard >drive, a Freiden computerized postage scale, a case of toner kits for DEC >LN-03/Scriptwriter printers, a Tektronix Type 230 'Digital Unit', an >HP-9000 computer, a DEC MINC-11, and some other assorted goodies. > >20 points extra if you can tell us why the unit in this picture: > >http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/Paxton/P049.JPG > >had enough significance to rank fairly high on my 'nab' list... > >More to come... >-jim > > >--- >jimw@computergarage.org >The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 18 09:01:14 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: shipping floppy disk drives In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail "Re: shipping floppy disk drives" (Apr 18, 4:53) References: Message-ID: <9904181501.ZM6236@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 18, 4:53, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > If double-sided, then > > open with no disk is fine, so long as the mechanism can't be jolted into > > letting the upper head hit the lower one. This is pretty well true of most > > 3.5" drives, and they're usually shipped like that. > I've seen plastic shipping inserts for 3.5" drives. To be safe, I'd try > to get one of these inserts for shipping the 3.5" as well. Maybe a local > computer store would have some. I've got half-a-dozen bright yellow ones, somewhere. I once asked why Sony stopped shipping drives with them and was told it was unnecessary; I suspect it just saved money. I'd suggest soft card is better -- the point is to stop the brittle ceramic heads banging into each other and possibly chipping. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 18 08:57:10 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: Apple HAL XEBEC controller In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail "Re: Apple HAL XEBEC controller" (Apr 18, 4:51) References: Message-ID: <9904181457.ZM6228@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 18, 4:51, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Oops, sorry. I misread that. I'll let you off :-) I do that all the time... > > looks like it's just boot/driver code, so I think there must be some other > > way to format the (winchester) drive. > > You are correct. Generally the Xebec interfaces were used with the Sider > hard drives (at least those are the only drives I've ever seen them > used with) and they came with utilities on floppies for partitioning and > formatting the drive. I've seen Xebecs with all sorts of drives (but not on Apples). But unlike Adaptec SCSI copntrollers, the Xebec ones never stored the drive geometry on the drive, so you had to put it in a file to be read by your code (or hardwire it into your code, which is a bit limiting). I remember writing a pile of 6502 code for a BBC Micro to handle that. > I don't think this is SASI since the actual hard drive is a ST-225 or > equivalent. More like MFM. Well, sure, the drive would be MFM (or whatever the particular Xebec controller was intended for). I don't have the Xebec controller that came with this particular Apple interface; I was just hoping I could use this Apple interface with one of the spare Xebecs I have in the junk box. > I don't think I have the pinout, but then my > Sider manuals are stored away somewhere, and I don't know that they would > necessarily have any technical info for the Xebec card. > > Are you wanting to use it to hook a hard drive up to your Apple ][? Yes. I should have been clearer; I have the Apple-to-Xebec interface, and a couple of Xebec SASI controllers from elsewhere, and a few MFM drives. What I need is the pinout of the 26-pin connector on the Apple-to-Xebec interface, so I can figure out if my Xebex will connect to it. I wonder if an Adaptec ACB4000 would work? I've got a couple of those, too. Was there a standard pinout on Apple SCSI/SASI boards? Perhaps it's the same as the Mac 25-pin SCSI? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 18 09:33:22 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <199904181433.AA24878@world.std.com> <> processor. The more rudimentary the processor, the more points you get. <> I choose the 4004. < Because of unbelieveably foolish, inane, silly comments like the one you just made, the investigative nature of this problem has been pushed aside if favor of what's really just a game. You've already admitted that you don't even have the totally irrelevant processor you initially claimed you'd use, not that it matters, since that comparison is of no value or interest with respect to the problem at hand. Just read the subject of the email you've been answering. I'm not interested in getting into the equivalent of a virtual computer "tractor pull." I can leave that to the rednecks with the room-temperature IQ's without feeling any loss. However, since the late 1970's there's been this nagging question about the relative merits of two essentially opposed approaches to computer architecture, and a serious attempt to make a comparison without the underlying motive of trying to sell hardware or software has really never been made. I suppose it's because it really doesn't profit anyone to make this comparison at this juncture, except perhaps the incipient 12-year-old lurking within us all. Your comparison would be accurate, perhaps, if it took only a couple of days' effort and parts we all probably have lying about anyway to build that formula-1 car you refer to, but if a person wants to perform a valid test, there has got to be suitable hardware. Now, there are lots of plain-vanilla-flavored microcomputers with a Z-80 at their hear. However, almost all the 6502-based computers were really designed for the video-toy market and only find themselves able to serve as computer only as an afterthought. The Apple-II is probably a prime example. It would be acceptable to run a comparative exercise on the two processors if some valid basis for the comparison could be determined. Hans Franke came up with a proposed means for evaluating the validity of each arrangement. Unfortunately, this requires a test system be prepared, with a suite of test software and some specialized hardware. It also requires that each system-under-test be equipped with compatible hardware. I find this proposal valid, but quite a way off the mark, in that it makes the test almost completely hardware dependent. My take on this test would be to permit development and execution of the algorithm ultimately deemed most appropriate for this test on whatever hardware the programmer has at his/her disposal. It should be as limited in its hardware requirements as possible, i.e. it should not matter whether the program is written for a TIMEX Sinclair, or a CRAY MPX with simulation capability. The sum total of the resources involved in the code limited to an amount of memory common to all the contestant systems, and a console interface common to all as well. Code for interacting with the system console need not be considered, so long as it is entered with a call to a routine requiring NO preparation prior to the call. That means you must call a routine to make the console I/O preparations before calling the console I/O routine itself. The time for the first call and return made within the contestant's code is to be included in the competition, but subsequent action is not. However, the called console I/O code must be provided in order to show that no task-related effort is being made by the console handling routine. This is simple with a terminal, but not so simple with a device having resident video and keyboard I/O. Hans Franke suggested this test be performed on a system like the KIM-1. It is probably achievable in one. It must be so limited that no one system can outperform another just because of its resources. The comparison is between the processors, not the systems in which they reside. The code applicable to the contest can be evaluated for its consumption of processor cycles and relative timing computed from that. However, a lowest common denominator with respect to resources must be applied in the strictest sense. All of this monitoring and calculation can be eliminated, however, if each contestant simply builds a simple system with a full compliment (whatever that is determined to be) of memory, and both of the subject processors can use only 64K of memory. The resources implicit in the processor design shouldn't be an issue as that's part of what's being compared. Consequently it must be inherently permissible to use as much stack as needed without being penalized in any way, provided that falls within the designated limits. Again, such limitations go away if everybody runs their processor in 64K of RAM/ROM with only the one I/O device. Doesn't this make more sense than having a "tractor-pull" between computers? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 18, 1999 12:10 AM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >On Sat, 17 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> I want to distance myself from the majority of this nonsense. Building a > >Well, since you launched us all into this nonsense its pretty hypocritical >of you to want to back away from it now. > >> simple computer with a processor, a ROM, a full compliment of RAM, and a >> serial console interface is a 10-minute design and a 90-minute fabrication >> task. If it's designed to fit already existing firmware/software, it's even >> more or less practical to fit it into that firmware or software's >> understanding of what the hardware is that fits with it. That means that an >> operating system might be straighforward to accomplish in a day or two if >> there's software in the form of a decent monitor or OS to support it. > >Sure! Let's have a driving contest to see who can drive the fastest, but >first we all have to build our own cars. THAT MAKES AN AMAZING AMOUNT OF >SENSE! > >> implementation. I'm sure most people in any way familiar with the things we >> had to do back in the '70's will agree, that, from a hardware standpoint, >> building a single-board system with 64K SRAM, Whatever size of EPROM you >> like, overlapping it and disabled when copied into RAM, and a serial port is >> a no-brainer, requiring , as I previously said, about 90 minutes to >> wire-wrap. It might take longer if you have to find the parts. If you use > >Sure, and open heart surgery is a pretty straightforward operation for an >experienced doctor, but we're not all experienced doctors. > >Dick, you're amazing. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/b9c2fd8b/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 18 10:11:21 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <004101be89ad$cfecc220$0100c0a8@fuj03> There are a few details which have been left out of the specification for this task. Does it require input validation? Is the binary input pure binary, or is it BCD? Shouldn't it go both ways, i.e. shouldn't we also have to convert ROMAN to BINARY as well as BINARY to ROMAN? What about the console I/O routine? Shouldn't there be some definition of how it's to be used? Should it be a call with the I/O character simply held in a register before/after the call? How much memory is used can be defined in two ways. (a) the number of bytes, and (b) how much contiguous memory must be present in order to allow the code to be implemented. It requires 200 bytes of RAM is not a valid statement if that RAM has to be scattered over a 32-KByte range. If your claim is that your code runs in 200 bytes of memory, it must be runnable on a computer having only 200 bytes of memory. If you can't figure out how to build a 200-byte RAM, then perhaps it might be more appropriate to suggest it requires only 256 bytes of RAM, which you can buy. Was the processor in question available in 1983? As I recall, the 6809 was, but there are some which weren't. Now, for the more subjective aspects of the comparison, how was the code initially generated? How long did it take to code the problem? How long to debug it? How is the 6809E relevant to the timing of the Z-80 and 6502? These issues should be resolved, I think, before everyone takes off. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 18, 1999 1:28 AM Subject: Re: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) > > My entry uses the MC6809E as used in the Color Computer Line from Tandy. >My general approach to this (as well as programming in general) is to avoid >the use of logic statements (comparisons/branches) and trying to use all the >registers to their best possible use. > > Static memory usage: 163 bytes > Dynamic memory: 16 bytes > Stack memory: 12 bytes > > Minimum Cycles: 21 > Maximum Cycles: 687 > One digit:* 144 > > *Due to implementation, this can be 1, 10, 100 or 1,000. > > Code ROMable: Yes > Data ROMable: Yes > Code is Re-entrant: Yes > Data is Re-entrant:* Yes > Undefined Opcodes: No > Undefined Behavior: No > > *Does a separate copy of static memory need to be created > for each re-entrant copy? If this answer is `no', then > the data is re-entrant. > > The main process is set up to avoid complicated logic, which leads to both >speed loss and size bloat. To this end, I have a jump table for each digit >to print (PTAB). The digits to be printed are stored in TABLE in decending >order, since that's the way I calculate the number (from largest to >smallest). I classifed the Roman numbers into two classes, ones and fives. >The `ones' class contains I, X, C and M. The `fives' class contains V, L >and D. There is another class, called `tens' which is a subclass from >`ones' (X, C and M). TABLE is set up such that for any grouping, [the >register] X points to the `ones' character, the previous character is the >`fives' character, and the one previous to that is the `tens' character. >The routines pointed to by PTAB should be relatively straight forward from >there. > > The only other tricky part comes to actually calculating the values to >print. ROMSUB repeatedly subtracts a value from the value we passed in, >keeping track of the number of times we do a subtract. This value to >subtract is stored inline of the code and is pulled off from the stack. The >actual return is stored on the stack, and is done by `JMP [1,S]' (where the >top of the stack contains the count). > > The calls to ROMSUB occur from RM1000, RM100, RM10 and RM1, and to get >there, we first store the address of RM1000 onto the stack, and in the main >loop, the first line of code `JSR [,S] calls RM1000. This returns with the >count on the top of the stack (and the address to RM1000 is still there) >where we then convert it to a Roman digit. Then we update the address to >RM1000 by 4, which then points it to RM100. We keep doing this, calling >RM10 and RM1. The last adjustment lands us in RMEXIT, which cleans up the >stack and returns to the calling program. > >************************************************** >* ROMAN CONVERT BINARY VALUE TO ROMAN NUMERALS >* >*ENTRY D VALUE TO CONVERT >* Y DESTINATION OF AT MOST 16 BYTES >*EXIT D DESTROYED >* Y PRESERVED >* ALL OTHERS SAVED EXCEPT CC >*************************************************** > >ROMAN CMPD #3999 CHECK RANGES > BGT ROMERR > CMPD #0 > BLE ROMERR > PSHS X,Y,U > LDX #RM1000 > PSHS X > LDX #TABLE > >ROM10 JSR [,S] > PSHS D > LDB 2,S > BEQ ROM20 > ADDB 2,S > SUBB #2 TIME SHORTER THAN DECB/DECB > DECB INDEX INTO JUMP TABLE > LDU #PTAB > JSR [B,U] >ROM20 PULS D > LEAS 3,S REMOVE COUNT AND RETURN ADDRESS > LDU ,S ADJUST FOR NEXT ROUTINE > LEAU 4,U > STU ,S > LEAX 2,X INCREMENT TO NEXT CHARACTER > BRA ROM10 CONTINUE > >ROMERR LDD #$2A00 > STD ,Y MARK ERROR AND END OF STRING > RTS > >RM1000 BSR ROMSUB > FDB 1000 >RM100 BSR ROMSUB > FDB 100 >RM10 BSR ROMSUB > FDB 10 >RM1 BSR ROMSUB > FDB 1 >RMEXIT LEAS 4,S > CLR ,Y > PULS X,Y,U,PC > >ROMSUB PULS U > CLR ,-S > >RS10 CMPD ,U > BLO RS20 > SUBD ,U > INC ,S > BRA RS10 >RS20 JMP [1,S] RETURN TO CALLER OF CALLER TO ROMSUB > >TABLE FCC 'MDCLXVI' > >PTAB FDB P1 > FDB P2 > FDB P3 > FDB P4 > FDB P5 > FDB P6 > FDB P7 > FDB P8 > FDB P9 > >*********************************************** >* FOLLOWING ROUTINES HAVE THE FOLLOWING >* ENTRY B OFFSET INTO JUMP TABLE >* U JUMP TABLE >* X TABLE >* Y STRING TO STORE INTO >* EXIT A DESTORYED >* B DESTROYED >********************************************** > >P3 LDA ,X LOAD FROM 1 TABLE > STA ,Y+ STORE CHARACTER >P2 LDA ,X > STA ,Y+ >P1 LDA ,X > STA ,Y+ > RTS > >P4 LDA ,X > STA ,Y+ >P5 LDA -1,X LOAD FROM 5 TABLE > STA ,Y+ > RTS > >P6 >P7 >P8 LDA -1,X > STA ,Y+ > SUBB #10 > JMP [B,U] > >P9 LDA ,X > STA ,Y+ > LDA -2,X LOAD FROM 10 TABLE > STA ,Y+ > RTS > >*********************************************** > > -spc (Eat and Enjoy ... ) > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 18 10:29:53 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: the aftermath In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990418091854.22b7b45a@intellistar.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19990417231741.00ad4750@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990418082953.013da2c0@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:18 AM 4/18/99, you wrote: >Jim, > > Was it an auction or a sale? I see a lot of stuff with prices on it. >The prices I see are cheap. Not at all like Paxton's prices! No, it was an auction. It appears that he was acquiring right up to the end (much to the landlords dismay I suspect), and many things just did not get the original price markings (or stickers) removed. Heck, the Tek 4006 I picked up still had 'GoodWill' price tags stuck all over it... > I see lots of stuff in your pictures that wasn't there when I visited him >last year. See my comment above... It will be somewhat odd to not have that resource around. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From mbg at world.std.com Sun Apr 18 10:39:52 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: the aftermath References: <3.0.3.32.19990417231741.00ad4750@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <199904181539.AA27057@world.std.com> What was the address for the web pages again? I seem to have lost it ... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Apr 18 10:53:34 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: FWD: Items on auction of possible interest Message-ID: <3719FFFC.4900E56B@bigfoot.com> Do not get in touch ith me on these but rather see them on eBay and contact the seller. I know the seller and that the profits from these items get turned into donations to a group known as Ky Industries for the Blind (KIB) so that they can purchase keyboards, ram and monitors for machines they build from donations for those with sight impairments, and occasionally others with other disabiliies. _____________________________________________________________________ Rick Mayes Leitchfield, KY USA - Saturday, April 17, 1999 at 17:38:53 I have the following oldies but goodies at www.Ebay.com item number title 92355306 Hewlett Packard 86, CPU, dual 5-1/4" floppy 92353685 Apple II PLUS, CPU, dual 5-1/4" floppy drive 92350927 Apple IIe, CPU, dual 5-1/4" floppy drives 92348416 6 Diablo HyType II Multistrike Film, ribbons 92251130 MacIntosh SE, CPU/Monitor 92248010 Hewlett Packard, HP 71B Mini Computer 92246567 COLORADO 250 MB Tape Back UP Drive Would the fellow that needs a ST-225 HD please email me I have one for you for whatever the shipping will be. Thanks, Rick From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 18 12:05:48 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <199904180639.CAA30085@armigeron.com> Message-ID: We also need a separate "anything goes" cataegory, so that we can see what Tony and Allison can come up with! From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Apr 18 12:07:06 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: Dumb OS question In-Reply-To: <990417094139.20c0075a@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at "Apr 17, 1999 9:41:39 am" Message-ID: <199904181707.NAA03079@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > Modern network-in-the-kernel OS's are very difficult to turn into "real-time" > systems with much functionality. You ever have a NFS server go down > and tie up a campus full of workstations for minutes at a time? > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > > Tim... Please don't ever consider the NFS server issue and workstation lock-ups an issue of real-time. The network-in-kernel issue is one of preemption of kernel and some other latency issues, but this is a kernel design issue -- not an NFS issue. The problem above is just NFS's screwed up stateless design. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From spc at armigeron.com Sun Apr 18 13:09:28 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <004101be89ad$cfecc220$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 18, 99 09:11:21 am Message-ID: <199904181809.OAA10315@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3875 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/fa240152/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Sun Apr 18 13:22:36 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <001a01be8918$49b3e7a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 17, 99 03:21:34 pm Message-ID: <199904181822.OAA10571@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 592 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/ac10c8a2/attachment.ksh From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Apr 18 13:56:57 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: the aftermath In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990417231741.00ad4750@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990418144013.00adcc90@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 11:17 PM 4/17/99 -0700, James Willing said something like: >For those who have never witnessed the diversity and chaos that has been >Paxton's warehouse, pictures taken today during the auction are available at: > >http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/Paxton/P0??.JPG (where ?? = 06 thru 42) > >The last few are shots of the collective bootie that the local gang took out. >(and yes, its as chaotic as it looks in the pictures!) >I'll probably arrange it into a more normal web page in the next few days. Wow! What a place that is/was! I would have hyperventilated and passed out if I walked in there. I could have blown the remaining severance pay I've got stashed easily. There seems to have been all kinds of little things stuck here 'n' there not just the big stuff. If the test gear and radio gear was anything like the computer stuff I probably would have went catatonic with excitement :) > >For my part, I managed to nab a pair of HP 1000F minicomputers (CPU >cabinets only), a Tek 4006 terminal, a DEC TU-81+ tape drive and RA-81 hard >drive, a Freiden computerized postage scale, a case of toner kits for DEC >LN-03/Scriptwriter printers, a Tektronix Type 230 'Digital Unit', an >HP-9000 computer, a DEC MINC-11, and some other assorted goodies. > >20 points extra if you can tell us why the unit in this picture: > >http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/Paxton/P049.JPG > >had enough significance to rank fairly high on my 'nab' list... See my reply to your next msg . . . > >More to come... Can't wait to see 'the more to come'! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 18 13:58:27 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: Apple HAL XEBEC controller In-Reply-To: <9904181457.ZM6228@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Well, sure, the drive would be MFM (or whatever the particular Xebec > controller was intended for). I don't have the Xebec controller that came > with this particular Apple interface; I was just hoping I could use this > Apple interface with one of the spare Xebecs I have in the junk box. Can you scan this card and the Xebec interfaces you have and post a picture of them somewhere? I then might be able to tell you if you've got a winning combination. > > Are you wanting to use it to hook a hard drive up to your Apple ][? > > Yes. I should have been clearer; I have the Apple-to-Xebec interface, and > a couple of Xebec SASI controllers from elsewhere, and a few MFM drives. > What I need is the pinout of the 26-pin connector on the Apple-to-Xebec > interface, so I can figure out if my Xebex will connect to it. I wonder if > an Adaptec ACB4000 would work? I've got a couple of those, too. Ok, I just took stock of the hardware in my next room. I have a First Class Peripherals Sider ][ hard drive (actually two) and for the first time ever noticed that they have a Xebec label on the bottom, which I guess means these are actually Xebec hard drives and First Class was the name they sold hard drives under? Whatever. Ok, so then I opened one up and noticed a Xebec PCB that is the same size as a 5.25" drive, that contains among many other things a Z80, an 8502 and a ROM with a Xebec label. The connector is 50 pins. I then opened the Apple //e hood and the Xebec controller card also has 50 pins. So I'm not familiar with the card you have at only 26 pins. > Was there a standard pinout on Apple SCSI/SASI boards? Perhaps it's the > same as the Mac 25-pin SCSI? If you consider Xebec to be the standard then yes. I've never seen a hard drive controller made by any company other than Xebec. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 18 13:59:13 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <199904181433.AA24878@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > <> processor. The more rudimentary the processor, the more points you get. > <> I choose the 4004. > < > > TMS1000 chip. Wow, you have a TMS1000 based micro? What the heck is it? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 18 14:05:42 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <002001be89aa$b0f45200$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Because of unbelieveably foolish, inane, silly comments like the one > you just made, the investigative nature of this problem has been > pushed aside if favor of what's really just a game. Never mind, count me out. This is too complicated for me. I just thought we were having a silly little competition between friends. (I'm feeling the impulses to institute a twit filter for the first time ever in my entire life.) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 18 14:44:35 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <199904181944.AA23158@world.std.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19990417235523.00965b60@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <3.0.3.32.19990417231741.00ad4750@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990418145718.00adec40@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:06 AM 4/18/99 -0700, James Willing said something like: >At 11:55 PM 4/17/99 -0700, Bruce Lane wrote: >>At 23:17 17-04-1999 -0700, Jim Willing wrote: >> >>>20 points extra if you can tell us why the unit in this picture: >>> >>>http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/Paxton/P049.JPG >>> >>>had enough significance to rank fairly high on my 'nab' list... >> >> I can't be 100% certain, but is not that an early digitizer, useful with >>vintage Tek O-scopes? > >Well, it may well be... but that was not the reason... B^} > >(actually, I have no clue just what the thing does...) Well, Bruce is pretty much on the money! The 230 first appeared in the 1967 Tektronix catalog and is indeed a device which provides digitised measurements from an oscilloscope. Still appeared in the '71 catalog but I have no cats from '72 to '80 in my library. However, the only scope it is designed to work with is the Type 568. The output is in BCD and goes to data recording devices which can handle such input. The 568/230 combination along with the Type 240 Program Control Unit, Type 241 Programmer, and several other pieces make up early types of data collection systems -the Type S-3110, S-3120 and S-3130 Digital Measurement Systems. The cost of the S-3130 was US$42,500 in the '69 catalog. The Type 230 alone was US$2850 in the '67 catalog (US$3200 in the '69). Punched paper tape is used to store the program to drive the Type 240 and a punch (made by Tally especially for Tek) is used to create same. The reader is made by Remex for Tek. The 241 was setup using diodes which were pushed into clips on a board. Probably steering diodes to connect programming logic together. There is a Disc Memory unit used on the S-3120 and 3130. The description is interesting. To wit: "Disc Memory is an 8-track rotation Disc Memory capable of storing 200 measurements per track . . . when used with the Type 240 or 240/250 Program Units . . . The format for any test is made up of a fixed word length of 96 characters of 4 bits plus parity. . . . The Disc Memory is made by Data Disc, Inc. especially for Tektronix." Cost was US$6600 in the '69 catalog. Whew! Storage was expen$ive with that thing but certainly more economical than true disc systems from IBM, DEC, CD, etc., etc. To quote from the catalog description these Digital Measurement Systems (the S-3110, etc.) were "designed to test IC's, transistors, diodes, circuit modules, circuit boards and sub-assemblies in all segments of the electronic industry." Basically, the programmer would setup the scope to measure a signal and switch that signal into the scope's input which shoved the analog output into the Type 230 which would then squirt the BCD data out from its output connector to the data logger. Yes, this is possibly a piece which could be on topic in one's collection as it originally *could* have been built into a system which tested contemporary computer components/assemblies. To make it useful, you would have to find a Type 568 scope. I'm sure you'd be able to take the BCD output and record it somehow either by finding a BCD data logger or hacking hardware together to have any of your computers read/record the data. Do you recall seeing at Paxton's any other Tek gear which could have been rack mounted with the numbers 240, 241, 250, etc.? The Tek 31 Calculator, which was discussed here a couple of months ago and of which myself and one or two others here have in their collection, was certainly a much smaller, more capable and cheaper programmable data collection controller than the 240 and 241 boxes and their accessories. It came out about 1973 or so. My Tek 31 was part of a Digital Measurement System once used in the IBM Endicott plant which "downsized" in 1984-85. Just put the 20 points on my tab :-) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 12:12:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: Power Frequency In-Reply-To: <008a01be890c$6fd697e0$f17d38cb@helpdesk> from "Geoff Roberts" at Apr 18, 99 05:26:38 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1171 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/aedfb4cb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 12:14:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: Ancient disk controllers In-Reply-To: <19990418020834.13147.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 17, 99 07:08:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 825 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/cc79012b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 12:50:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: Ancient disk controllers In-Reply-To: <002001be8957$d97a8d00$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 17, 99 10:56:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1686 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/d505b59a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 12:55:57 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <005201be8959$662136e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 17, 99 11:05:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1004 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/bea91e1d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 12:30:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 17, 99 07:19:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 577 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/116ec868/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 12:33:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: shipping floppy disk drives In-Reply-To: <199904180232.WAA02260@platy.cs.unc.edu> from "Bill Yakowenko" at Apr 17, 99 10:32:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 723 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/74ddee73/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 13:00:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: Education vs. School (was Re: OT: City Names) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 17, 99 10:54:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1191 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/98cd67b1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 13:05:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: Filler panels for a DEC MINC-11? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990418001942.00ec0530@agora.rdrop.com> from "James Willing" at Apr 18, 99 00:19:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 645 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/ba53a4ed/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 12:41:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <001501be8954$b5d13f00$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 17, 99 10:33:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1620 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/94360c55/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 13:14:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: DEC RA81 need quick answer In-Reply-To: <199904181226.IAA02374@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Apr 18, 99 08:25:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 789 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/8e4a6c07/attachment.ksh From mikeford at netwiz.net Sun Apr 18 12:49:01 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: References: <001501be8954$b5d13f00$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: >Sure! Let's have a driving contest to see who can drive the fastest, but >first we all have to build our own cars. THAT MAKES AN AMAZING AMOUNT OF >SENSE! Shsssh! We're building a race track first. From mike at delos.rain.com Sun Apr 18 14:40:00 1999 From: mike at delos.rain.com (Mike Newman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:18 2005 Subject: How to read recalcitrant floppies? In-Reply-To: <19990417185212.10107.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <199904182005.NAA04410@agora.rdrop.com> On 17 Apr 99, at 11:52, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Are there any tools to go divining on DOS floppies that work better than > an endless succession of "R"etries? There's a new program called Lost and Found that's supposed to be able to recover data from problem disks. I haven't actually used it myself, but you can read the manufacturer's claims at www.powerquest.com. ----------------------------------------------------- Mike Newman INTERNET: mike@delos.rain.com Aloha, Oregon USA -or- mikewnewman@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~mikewnewman ----------------------------------------------------- I met a mine foreman who has a piece of coal with a 1909 gold sovereign in it. I saw an ammonite, apparently squashed in the fossil footprint of a sandal. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Apr 18 15:24:59 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: CMOS 6502 variants (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <19990418011302.26736.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 18, 99 01:13:02 am Message-ID: <199904182024.NAA09472@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 807 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/205bcc4e/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 18 15:29:26 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > You have a _home micro_ based on a 4004? What the heck is it? > > > > Actually, I don't (I was joking really) but there was a 4004 microcomputer > > that Intel sold as a development machine in the 1972-1974 timeframe, > > called the MCS-4 (are you not familiar with it?) The closest I have is an > > MCS-4/40 (4040-based) and a SIM-8, which is an Intel 8008 development > > platform. > > Sure. I know of the MCS4 (I don't have one, although I do have the MCS8i > (8080)). But I wouldn't call it a 'home micro', just as I wouldn't call > half the machines I own 'home computers'. Well, it certainly could have been a micro used in the home, as it could easily fit on a desk with a terminal, probably more so than an Apple ][ (it was smaller). In the very least it was a "microcomputer" in every sense of the definition. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 18 15:34:30 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Education vs. School (was Re: OT: City Names) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > I feel equally strongly about this, as I don't have the right bits of > paper, and it is making life difficult for me. Don't get me wrong, I > don't care about qualifications either - I'd much rather [work > with|employ|be emplyed by] somebody with no qualifications who could do > the job than somebody who had all the right bits of paper but who was > totally clueless. But it appears (at least in the UK) that > personnel-droids only go on bits of paper and not what you've done or > what you can do. Ok, the way I see it you have two options: a) start your own business b) go back to school and enroll in a program, and if the university system there is anything like here in the States, challenge every course you possibly can to accelerate your degree, and take as many credits as you can in each semester. You'll probably have a piece of paper that certifies you as "qualified" in about a year. A or B. Choose one now and stop feeling sorry for yourself. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 18 15:38:26 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >Sure! Let's have a driving contest to see who can drive the fastest, but > >first we all have to build our own cars. THAT MAKES AN AMAZING AMOUNT OF > >SENSE! > > Shsssh! We're building a race track first. No, that's too simple. First we have to go terraform Mars so that we can build the race track there. We don't want to give anyone an unfair advantage by letting them race their cars in a familiar atmosphere. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 18 16:42:23 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Ancient disk controllers In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990418214223.30893.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > So, unless the contents of the ROMs are similar to those on the WD1001 > (some chance!), the WD1001 or WD1000 manuals aren't going to be any use. A fairly good chance, since WD licensed the entire design, including the firmware, to lots of companies. How much Davong changed it could range from 0 to 100%, but I doubt that they really had any motivation to do much to it. All they really needed to do was to make a PC host adapter for it, which was trivial, so it seems unlikely that they would have wanted to spend a lot of time hacking 8X300 code. > I think you've got it backwards. The WD1001 has the 8X300 on it (I have > one in the hard disk box for my Model 4). The WD1000 (at least the > WD1000-05) ahas a WD1010-05 chip on it, according to the data book. The -05 suffix parts were entirely different than the original models. Both the WD1000 and the WD1001 were originally designed to use the 8X300, although the 8X305 was sometimes substituted. From donm at cts.com Sun Apr 18 16:43:13 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Apple HAL XEBEC controller In-Reply-To: <9904181233.ZM5963@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 17, 12:26, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Subject: Re: Apple HAL XEBEC controller > > Xebec made a number of "specialized" bridge controllers, which fit > between > > the host adapter, which is what you've described, in this case possibly > > intended to go to a compatible version of their 14xx-series controllers > > which, in turn, provides a SCSI interface to an ST506 drive, which you > > apparently have on hand. > > Yes, though AFAIK all the Xebec controllers of that era are SASI, not SCSI. > > > It is likely that the 26-pin connector is to the Apple II version of SCSI > > which was put out back then on a 25-pin DB-25 connector. > > Sounds logical. Anyone got the pinouts? Check THEREF43 in the DIAGRAMS.DOC section. - don > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 18 16:45:29 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: CMOS 6502 variants (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <199904182024.NAA09472@oa.ptloma.edu> (message from Cameron Kaiser on Sun, 18 Apr 1999 13:24:59 -0700 (PDT)) References: <199904182024.NAA09472@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <19990418214529.30906.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Commodore also designed a CMOS 6502 core, but AFAIK it was never actually > marketed as a 65C02. Cameron replied: > Tell me more about this. To the best of my knowledge, Commodore only ever > used NMOS (65xx), HMOS-1 (75xx) and HMOS-2 (85xx) in their computers *save* > the 65, which used the 4510 (modified 65CE02 with two onboard 6526s). HMOS > was, for its part, just a high-speed NMOS manufacturing process (hence H). I received a data sheet from them many years ago, which I no longer have. I don't recall the part number they were using. Perhaps I spoke to strongly when I said that they designed it; it may be that they only wrote a data sheet in order to guage customer interest. That was before they essentially stopped selling their chips on the open market. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 18 17:56:09 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Need PDP boards identified Message-ID: I need some help identifing some of the boards that I pulled out of Paxtons yesterday: M7904 - Not listed in the Field Guide Hex-Height 40-pin ribbon cable sticking out the side NDLV-11 netcom products, inc. copyright jan. 1979 MSI-11 (c)1978 Andromeda Systems Inc faded sticker on handle says 'MUX1' and 'MUX3' the rest is to faded to read A two board set from Plessey Peripheral Systems connected via a 50-pin ribbon cable. The top board (P/N 703580) has 8 LEDs and a 10-pin connector. The bottom board (P/N 703570) has 4 26-pin connectors and a roughly 66-pin connector (not sure its exact size). The only thing I can think of is some kind of drive controller. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 16:44:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <199904181944.AA23158@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 18, 99 03:44:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1159 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/dd108b92/attachment.ksh From danburrows at mindspring.com Sun Apr 18 17:39:20 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Need PDP boards identified Message-ID: <003201be89ec$504ea0d0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> > M7904 - Not listed in the Field Guide > Hex-Height > 40-pin ribbon cable sticking out the side M7904-00 RK611 DRIVE INTERFACE,HEX > NDLV-11 > netcom products, inc. > copyright jan. 1979 More than likely another DLV11 clone. It is amazing how many different ones I have encountered. > MSI-11 (c)1978 > Andromeda Systems Inc > faded sticker on handle says 'MUX1' and 'MUX3' the rest is to > faded to read http://www.andromedasystems.com/ if all else fails >A two board set from Plessey Peripheral Systems connected via a 50-pin >ribbon cable. The top board (P/N 703580) has 8 LEDs and a 10-pin >connector. The bottom board (P/N 703570) has 4 26-pin connectors and a >roughly 66-pin connector (not sure its exact size). The only thing I can >think of is some kind of drive controller. The MMI has a few listed and has them described as memory module. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 18 18:49:46 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Need PDP boards identified (additional info) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >A two board set from Plessey Peripheral Systems connected via a 50-pin >ribbon cable. The top board (P/N 703580) has 8 LEDs and a 10-pin >connector. The bottom board (P/N 703570) has 4 26-pin connectors and a >roughly 66-pin connector (not sure its exact size). The only thing I can >think of is some kind of drive controller. Sorry about replying to my own message but I figured additional info would help, I've put pictures of this board set. http://zane.brouhaha.com/healyzh/images/703580-200U.JPG http://zane.brouhaha.com/healyzh/images/703570-200J.JPG | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 17:32:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Ancient disk controllers In-Reply-To: <19990418214223.30893.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 18, 99 09:42:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1403 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/8660cd83/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 17:38:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Need PDP boards identified In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 18, 99 02:56:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 546 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990418/e3c996d0/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 18 18:12:27 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > >Sure! Let's have a driving contest to see who can drive the fastest, but > > >first we all have to build our own cars. THAT MAKES AN AMAZING AMOUNT OF > > >SENSE! > > Shsssh! We're building a race track first. > No, that's too simple. First we have to go terraform Mars so that we can > build the race track there. We don't want to give anyone an unfair > advantage by letting them race their cars in a familiar atmosphere. I'm having a little bit of difficulty with not being able to use modern tools and materials for the metallurgy for building my engine. :-) Will I have to build it on Mars, also? If you really want to see a drivers only contest, watch IROC racing (was just on ESPN this afternoon) - a dozen identical cars, and in 40 laps, the pack spread out to a few car lengths. The winner was a Pontiac. So was the loser, and every other car in the race. I think that it is more fun to watch an event where the vehicles differ. We really need two sections of the whole competition - one section with fixed platforms, and one section permitting custom hardware. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sun Apr 18 18:13:00 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <199904182313.TAA06212@platy.cs.unc.edu> You'd normally expect that the winner of any such contest would be the most recent processor, wouldn't you? So, if the cut-off date was 1982, any processor that was released in late '82 should probably beat any that was already available in 1979. Of course, if the 1979 processor had a much faster version available in 1983 (like a higher clock rate), that faster version wouldn't be legal with the 1982 cut- off, because that wasn't around in 1982. So, I suggest that one way of judging cleverness of software hacks is that they let an older processor beat a newer one. Judging that way, we don't even need a cut-off date. But anybody coding for a 1999 processor won't have any way to win. Of course, then we need clear evidence when each processor became available at each clock speed, and we can argue about when the chip was *really* available (as opposed to being orderable, or just having the spec available). Bill. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Apr 18 14:44:15 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Memory feature ? Message-ID: <199904182343.TAA15203@smtp.interlog.com> While browsing I ran across a post which set me giggling. It was from a Power Mac user who was fed up cause his 200mhz 192Meg machine kept coming up with "out of memory" errors. In the replies it was stated that OS 8.1 and 8.5 were known to have "memory leaks". Heh, heh, heh. I'm reminded of the 4k memory in my Vic-20 or Gates' oft-quoted statement regarding the more than enough 640k MSDOS. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 18 18:46:13 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Apple HAL XEBEC controller In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail "Re: Apple HAL XEBEC controller" (Apr 18, 11:58) References: Message-ID: <9904190046.ZM6778@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 18, 11:58, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Can you scan this card and the Xebec interfaces you have and post a > picture of them somewhere? I then might be able to tell you if you've got > a winning combination. Sadly, that's one of the projects that's "less than complete" at the moment. > Ok, I just took stock of the hardware in my next room. I have a First > Class Peripherals Sider ][ hard drive (actually two) and for the first > time ever noticed that they have a Xebec label on the bottom, which I > guess means these are actually Xebec hard drives and First Class was the > name they sold hard drives under? Whatever. I didn't know Xebec made drives, but it's perfectly possible. They used to describe themselves as the "Zero Defect" company, so that would fit. > Ok, so then I opened one up and noticed a Xebec PCB that is the same size > as a 5.25" drive, that contains among many other things a Z80, an 8502 and > a ROM with a Xebec label. The connector is 50 pins. Sounds just like mine. > I then opened the Apple //e hood and the Xebec controller card also has 50 > pins. Ah. Well, I didn't really expect you'd have a setup that was quite the same. Thanks very much for taking the trouble to check, though. > So I'm not familiar with the card you have at only 26 pins. > > > Was there a standard pinout on Apple SCSI/SASI boards? Perhaps it's the > > same as the Mac 25-pin SCSI? > > If you consider Xebec to be the standard then yes. I've never seen a hard > drive controller made by any company other than Xebec. Hmm... I've seen lots, notably Adaptec and Xylogics... but perhaps you mean in an Apple environment -- in which case the only other name that comes to mind is Corvus, and I've no idea what they used. Not SCSI, I think. Still, I've got a few ideas, so tomorrow I'll go and dig out the Mac manuals and look at their 25-pin interface, and check some of the traces on the Apple board to see if there's a plausible match. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 18:01:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Need PDP boards identified In-Reply-To: <003201be89ec$504ea0d0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Apr 18, 99 06:39:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990419/056a6085/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 18 20:01:41 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Need PDP boards identified In-Reply-To: References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 18, 99 02:56:09 pm Message-ID: >> A two board set from Plessey Peripheral Systems connected via a 50-pin >> ribbon cable. The top board (P/N 703580) has 8 LEDs and a 10-pin >> connector. The bottom board (P/N 703570) has 4 26-pin connectors and a >> roughly 66-pin connector (not sure its exact size). The only thing I can >> think of is some kind of drive controller. > >If the '66 pin' connector could be 60 pin, then that's almost certainly >an SMD controller. The 60 pin cable is the drive control cable, the 26 >pins are for the 'radial' data cables (one per drive). I just counted it, and as a matter of fact, it is a 60-pin connector. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Apr 18 20:24:01 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Need PDP boards identified Message-ID: <990418212401.20400ac3@trailing-edge.com> >I need some help identifing some of the boards that I pulled out of Paxtons >yesterday: > > M7904 - Not listed in the Field Guide > Hex-Height > 40-pin ribbon cable sticking out the side This is one of the five boards (M7900-M7904) in the RK06 system unit. This particular board contains the drivers for the actual drive interface. > NDLV-11 > netcom products, inc. > copyright jan. 1979 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 18 22:13:16 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Need PDP boards identified In-Reply-To: <990418212401.20400ac3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >> NDLV-11 >> netcom products, inc. >> copyright jan. 1979 > >>From the part number, I'd say it was a DLV11-* clone. Does it have >one 40-pin connector or 4 10-pin connectors or ? One 40, which had a 10-pin connector with cable/other end DB25 plugged into it. >> MSI-11 (c)1978 >> Andromeda Systems Inc >> faded sticker on handle says 'MUX1' and 'MUX3' the rest is to >> faded to read > >Andromeda has made a lot over the years, but from the part number I'll >hazard a guess that this is a Q-bus memory board. If you could mention >any obvious chips, arrays, or connectors maybe a better guess will be >upcoming. I think it has a 40-pin connector plugged into it, unfortunatly can't check as it's now in storage (just my luck company is coming so had to rush it up there this evening). >>A two board set from Plessey Peripheral Systems connected via a 50-pin >>ribbon cable. The top board (P/N 703580) has 8 LEDs and a 10-pin >>connector. The bottom board (P/N 703570) has 4 26-pin connectors and a >>roughly 66-pin connector (not sure its exact size). The only thing I can >>think of is some kind of drive controller. > >If the big connector is 60-pins, then it's the Plessey 4 SMD drive >controller. Plessey also made some other two-board controller sets >for Pertec unformatted tapes, but this sounds more like their SMD >controller. It is, Tony identified this as a SMD controller also. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 18 21:13:50 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Apple HAL XEBEC controller In-Reply-To: <9904190046.ZM6778@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Ok, I just took stock of the hardware in my next room. I have a First > > Class Peripherals Sider ][ hard drive (actually two) and for the first > > time ever noticed that they have a Xebec label on the bottom, which I > > guess means these are actually Xebec hard drives and First Class was the > > name they sold hard drives under? Whatever. > > I didn't know Xebec made drives, but it's perfectly possible. They used to > describe themselves as the "Zero Defect" company, so that would fit. Well, not the actual DRIVE per se, but the entire assembly. The actual drive was manufactured by NEC (didn't note down the model number). The enclosure was the First Class Peripherals Sider ][, and the label on the bottom of the enclosure was a Xebec. The controller within the enclosure was Xebec, and the controller in the Apple is Xebec. > > Ok, so then I opened one up and noticed a Xebec PCB that is the same size > > as a 5.25" drive, that contains among many other things a Z80, an 8502 > and > > a ROM with a Xebec label. The connector is 50 pins. > > Sounds just like mine. > > > I then opened the Apple //e hood and the Xebec controller card also has > 50 > > pins. > > Ah. Well, I didn't really expect you'd have a setup that was quite the > same. Thanks very much for taking the trouble to check, though. No problem. > > So I'm not familiar with the card you have at only 26 pins. > > > > > Was there a standard pinout on Apple SCSI/SASI boards? Perhaps it's > the > > > same as the Mac 25-pin SCSI? > > > > If you consider Xebec to be the standard then yes. I've never seen a > hard > > drive controller made by any company other than Xebec. > > Hmm... I've seen lots, notably Adaptec and Xylogics... but perhaps you mean > in an Apple environment -- in which case the only other name that comes to > mind is Corvus, and I've no idea what they used. Not SCSI, I think. Yes, I meant Apple, specifically the Apple ][ family (short of the //gs). Corvus would be another one. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 18 21:17:49 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: the puzzle In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990418145718.00adec40@206.231.8.2> References: <3.0.3.32.19990418000602.00ebe100@agora.rdrop.com> <3.0.5.32.19990417235523.00965b60@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990418191749.0129c620@agora.rdrop.com> At 03:43 PM 4/18/99 -0400, Christian Fandt wrote: >Upon the date 12:06 AM 4/18/99 -0700, James Willing said something like: >>At 11:55 PM 4/17/99 -0700, Bruce Lane wrote: >>>At 23:17 17-04-1999 -0700, Jim Willing wrote: >>> >>>>20 points extra if you can tell us why the unit in this picture: >>>> >>>>http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/Paxton/P049.JPG >>>> >>>>had enough significance to rank fairly high on my 'nab' list... >>> >>> I can't be 100% certain, but is not that an early digitizer, useful with >>>vintage Tek O-scopes? >> >>Well, it may well be... but that was not the reason... B^} > >Well, Bruce is pretty much on the money! > >The 230 first appeared in the 1967 Tektronix catalog and is indeed a device >which provides digitised measurements from an oscilloscope. Still appeared >in the '71 catalog but I have no cats from '72 to '80 in my library. >Just put the 20 points on my tab :-) Well... neat information, but not the reason I had in mind... A slight clue: It has less to do with the specifics of the unit than an appearance it made in a certain movie that many (most?) of us should be familar with... (ok, maybe more than a 'slight' clue... ) B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Apr 18 22:00:21 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Ancient disk controllers Message-ID: <19990419030021.2569.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > Which pins are used on the 50 pin connector? Could it be pinned out as a > > > SCSI port. Or is it possibly some custom host interface? > > > > It could be a custom host interface. Among other anomalies, I don't see > > any terminating resistors. > > Doesn't sound like SCSI/SASI, then... > > > Can you scan that data sheet or send me a photocopy? I'd pay for > > copying/mailing. > > Sure, but from what others have said, I don't think it'll be a lot of use > to you. Well... does anyone need this? I happen to have the enclosure that goes with it too. It says "Davong" on the outside and has a one-piece lid with broad, rounded corners, not boxy. > > > 20MHz/4 = 5MHz = standard ST506 data rate. > > > > Right. It's the right rate for an 8" disk. > > Is it? I thought the 8" winchesters had a 4.34MHz data rate. To repeat myself, that's a typo. I meant to say "...not the right rate...". Mea culpa. If anyone can put this to use, let me know. I can't imagine anything I'll own in the near future that needs it. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 18 22:04:22 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <001001be8a11$679be660$0100c0a8@fuj03> Well, I recall that someone said, a while back, that the devil's in the details. What I'm trying to do is place boundaries around this problem for purposes of understanding its limits. Others who attempt to replicate your work on other processors will want to know these things. From your statement that the process produces a result of '*' for an invalid input, which, apparently would include negative values, non-integers, and integers of value 4000 or greater. If the input is presumed to be unsigned integer, that solves much of the problem. Now, you want to store the output in memory, presumably as ascii characters, presumably as a null-terminated string, and perhaps (optionally) echo it to the screen in the aftermath of your run. Does that sound like a reasonable thing to do? How do we tell this program what string of numbers to convert? Is this someting you want to put into memory as a null-terminated string of binary values, or would you prefer a single word for each value, with a null terminating the input array or a fixed string length? It's still simple enough. I can even understand it myself, I think. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 18, 1999 12:23 PM Subject: Re: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) >It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: >> >> There are a few details which have been left out of the specification for >> this task. >> >> Does it require input validation? > > I think I specified that. The valid range of Roman numerals is 1 through >3,999 inclusive. The routine does have to check that and construct a >special string ( "*" ) if the input is not in that range. > >> Is the binary input pure binary, or is it BCD? > > Okay, that might be a valid point, but it's pure binary, not BCD. > >> Shouldn't it go both ways, i.e. shouldn't we also have to convert ROMAN to >> BINARY as well as BINARY to ROMAN? > > One thing at a time, please 8-) > >> What about the console I/O routine? Shouldn't there be some definition of >> how it's to be used? Should it be a call with the I/O character simply held >> in a register before/after the call? > > I liked Sam's suggestion of ``printing to memory'' as a way to avoid the >complications of I/O in this, and if I didn't make this clear that the >conversion was to be stored in memory, I'm sorry. That should work. In fact, input could be done that was as well, placing the input in memory and then executing the program from a debugger or with a call from a HLL. >> How much memory is used can be defined in two ways. (a) the number of >> bytes, and (b) how much contiguous memory must be present in order to allow >> the code to be implemented. It requires 200 bytes of RAM is not a valid >> statement if that RAM has to be scattered over a 32-KByte range. > > Uh ... okay ... gee ... I thought common sense would be enough here. > > The problem here is that I could say: Code segment size, data segment >size, bss (dynamic) segment size and stack segment size, but that tends to >lead to certain assumptions about how to code (at least to me). In modern >systems, code and data are kept separate, but there's nothing really >requiring that, and as you can see from my solution, I mix both code and >data together, which was a common trick in the 8-bit era (and maybe used >earlier as well). This is an issue only because these systems have both ROM and RAM, and using parts of each can bias the resource tally without really having any meaning. >> If your >> claim is that your code runs in 200 bytes of memory, it must be runnable on >> a computer having only 200 bytes of memory. If you can't figure out how to >> build a 200-byte RAM, then perhaps it might be more appropriate to suggest >> it requires only 256 bytes of RAM, which you can buy. > > I'm a software guy---building computers isn't exactly my forte. Besides, >if I say my code only requires 200 bytes of memory, and I can't figure out >how to build a computer with 200 bytes of memory (pretty easy for me 8-) >then that means I have 56 additional bytes to play with, maybe by adding >code to run blinkenlights or something. > > Besides, who wants to build a computer for this? Okay, except for Tony? That's the ultimate test, though, isn't it? >> Was the processor in question available in 1983? As I recall, the 6809 was, >> but there are some which weren't. >> >> Now, for the more subjective aspects of the comparison, how was the code >> initially generated? How long did it take to code the problem? How long >> to debug it? > > This I'd rather not include as this is very subjective. It only took me >about an hour or so to code and debug the program, but I'm a software guy >that's been programming for 15 years or so, and the 6809 was my first CPU I >learned assembly language on. It might take Tony four hours to get a >similar program running. By the same token, he could probably get a simple >computer system running in an hour that would take me four hours. > > It really depends upon how much experience you have both in programming >and the CPU in question. I know that it would take me longer to write this >program for the 6502 or the Z80, both of which I've never written code for >(but I can read code for each CPU). > >> How is the 6809E relevant to the timing of the Z-80 and 6502? > > Nothing at all, except as an outside reference. That, and I don't really >know Z80 or 6502 code (nor do I have development systems for these chips). > Its certainly an outside reference. It may be a challenge for everyone to improve on it. . . We'll see, I guess > -spc (Gee, I thought it was pretty simple problem myself ... ) > > From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Apr 18 23:17:32 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: SoCal TRW Swap/Brunch/CompuCrawl Message-ID: At the risk of boring the Regulars (please forgive) I would like to take some bandwidth to extend an invitation to any Classiccmpers who will be in the Southern California area this coming weekend, the 24th of April, 99..... The TRW Ham Radio and Electronics swapmeet will be held at the TRW facility in El Segundo, Ca, from 7:30am until 11:30am local time. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 18 23:18:33 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: the puzzle In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990418191749.0129c620@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: In case anyone's wondering what everything is in the pictures Mr. Willing took at Paxton's auction, I've identified as many things as I can so that if anyone ever spots one of these in their travels and wonders if its worth their while to pick up, they'll at least have an idea what they're looking at. P009.JPG 17-Apr-1999 22:02 78k From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 18 23:37:25 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: the puzzle In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990418191749.0129c620@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990418213725.009973b0@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:18 PM 4/18/99 -0700, you wrote: > >In case anyone's wondering what everything is in the pictures Mr. Willing >took at Paxton's auction, I've identified as many things as I can so that >if anyone ever spots one of these in their travels and wonders if its >worth their while to pick up, they'll at least have an idea what they're >looking at. > P023.JPG 17-Apr-1999 22:02 64k > >Damn it! Damn it all to hell! That's the HP 9000/520 Unix workstation >I've been lusting for!! Frank McConnell has the only one I've ever seen. Well then, you're gonna hate me! It followed me home! (or at least, will as soon as I get back to pick it up!) > P024.JPG 17-Apr-1999 22:02 73k > >Tektronix 4001 (or 4002?) storage scope. Well... I thot it was a 4002 as well... It is a 4006-1. It followed me home too! > P044.JPG 17-Apr-1999 22:03 79k > >Is this the HP1000F? I thought you said it was an empty chassis. No, I said I got the CPUs only (as opposed to a complete system). P044.JPG is the rear of the unit, P045.JPG is the front. B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Apr 18 23:38:38 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: DEC RA81 need quick answer In-Reply-To: References: <199904181226.IAA02374@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <199904190438.OAA19102@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 19:14 18/04/99 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >Should be, yes. But what harm does it do to flip the clamp lever with the >disk turned on? It might save the head if they're not in the right place >after spin-down as well. > >I don't think there's any danger in doing this - no moving parts, no >obviously exposed high voltages.... The only thing that I can think of is that if the disk is spinning the heads will have moved from the landing zone and the physical act of moving the lock lever to the lock position will move the heads which could them to crash. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 18 23:49:14 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Ancient disk controllers Message-ID: <002501be8a20$dacce440$0100c0a8@fuj03> It's like I wrote a few days ago. There was a bit of confusion about what was what. Several different forces at WD were shuffling for turf, apparently, and the prize, in this case, was the 1000 designation vs the 1001. They had data sheets about a 1000-08 controller but that never made the price list. I have several of the OLD (meaning with the 8X300 + WD1100 chipset) tuned for handling ST506 drives, but none for 8", though I tried to order them through distribution. Western send me several versions of the small board with the 1010, 1014, and 1015 chips as samples, but I couldn't get any of their offering for the 8" drives. I didn't need them, so it didn't really matter. I don't know how far back you remember, but the 8T31 is what they called an interface vector, in the 8X300 doc's, and what it really is, essentially, is a 74373 with built-in decode logic. It can work in either direction so you can use it in both input and output applications. The part is described in the OSBORNE series on microprocessors, in case anyone is interested. The 8X300 is a true RISC. it has 8 instructions and, on the original version, each one took 300 ns. on the version which was current in 1980, it was customarily used with an 8MHz clock which meant each instruction took 250 ns, and in 1981 they trimmed it down to 200 ns with their 8X305. These processors showed up in lots of tape controllers and the like, perhaps an occasional SMD, and at least one LAN application, though I don't know what the protocol was. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 18 23:55:31 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <002601be8a20$dbd97240$0100c0a8@fuj03> please see the embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 18, 1999 2:05 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >> >> If one were going to put an FDC in place, the easiest probably would be the >> WD3765, since it has built in cable-drivers and receivers as well as > >Sure. Or one of the similar, but incompatibly pinned-out UMC disk >controller chips. > >Heck, it wouldn't be hard to add one of the multi-I/O chips from a PC I/O >card and have FDC, 2 serial ports and a printer port. Most of them only >need an 8-bit data bus for those functions. > >> clock/data processing hardware. You connect it directly to the cable, as I >> recall. It otherwise behaves as a uPD765 (i8272). > >Absolutely. The point I was making (not very clearly) is that WD FDC >chips are getting hard to find, but there's no reason not to use an 8272 >(or one of the later chips based on this, but with more things integrated >into the device). > >But if you insist on 'classic' hardware (meaning all the chips you use >were in production at least 10 years ago), you probably won't be allowed >to use some of these more integrated devices. That's exactly the reason I'd prefer to use the WD1002 boards I have around. They handle both the FDC and HDC functions with a minimum of extraneous hardware and would, at least in the case of the Z-80 lead to a productive OS. That's not as likely in the case of the 6502, since there wasn't much of use around for it. Nonetheless, a nonvolatile storage medium of some sort would be convenient, and if I make the board in question home to both processors there'll be no doubt about whether one or the other has more or better resources. I got these boards in 1982. When they were brand new products and, in the case of the 1002's, before they were released commecially. >-tony From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 18 23:59:07 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <004101be8a21$5b229720$0100c0a8@fuj03> That's what y ou have to do when you start with nothing. It's not a new concept. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 18, 1999 2:10 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >>Sure! Let's have a driving contest to see who can drive the fastest, but >>first we all have to build our own cars. THAT MAKES AN AMAZING AMOUNT OF >>SENSE! > >Shsssh! We're building a race track first. > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 19 00:01:53 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <004601be8a21$be097fc0$0100c0a8@fuj03> See my one comment embedded below, plz. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 18, 1999 2:08 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >> >> I want to distance myself from the majority of this nonsense. Building a >> simple computer with a processor, a ROM, a full compliment of RAM, and a >> serial console interface is a 10-minute design and a 90-minute fabrication > >Less than that, actually. There's nothing to 'design' IMHO - just stick >the chips on a piece of wire-wrap board and wire-wrap the address and >data buses. While you're doing that, design the address decoder with the >other half of your brain. > >I built a 6809 SBC years ago, and the chip count was pretty minimal. >IIRC: >6809 CPU + 4MHz crystal as the clock >2 off 6264 RAMs (16K RAM total) >2764 EPROM and space for a second one >6551 + MAX232 serial port >9914+75160+75162 GPIB port (that was in the spec, obviously not needed >for a general-purpose machine). >2 off 74LS138 address decoders (one to divide the memory map up into 8K >blocks, the other to subdivide one block for the I/O chips). These days >I'd use a GAL. >A couple of TTL latches and buffers for I/O ports (cofig switches, status >LEDs, etc). > >That was it. Obviously a 6502 could be used with much the same hardware. >A Z80 wouldn't be any worse either. Rockwell made a 65C102 available in the same speed grades as the 65C02. This used a quadrature clock just like the 6809 and worked pretty much like it as well, at least insofar as the timing circuit was concerned. >> Now I can't imagine why a graphics display, or anything so inane as that >> could creep into the consciousness of an otherwise perfectly sane person >> wishing to deal with one of life's fundamental mysteries, i.e. "which is >> really faster, the XXXX or the YYYY?" > >Oh, Sam was suggesting all sorts of complex features and I was pointing >out that most of them weren't that hard to add if you really wanted them. >You don't want them for this challenge IMHO. > >-tony > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 19 00:46:31 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Ancient disk controllers In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990419054631.32480.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The WD1001-05 looks pretty similar to the other varients described in the > databook I have (-55, -85 IIRC). What was the original one like? The functional differences were that the -05 versions were physically smaller (5.75 x 8 inches) and didn't support the 8-inch drives. Someone else pointed out that the WD1000-05 uses the WD1010 integrated controller rather than the 8X300 and the WD1100 chip set. Since the main difference between the WD1000 and WD1001 is that the latter supports ECC, I would guess that the WD1001-5 must use a WD2010 controller. The host interface was virtually identical whether the 8X300 or the WD1010 was used. The register set and commands used by current ATA (IDE) disk drives evolved from the WD1000. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 19 01:50:10 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: the puzzle In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990418191749.0129c620@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: > P012.JPG 17-Apr-1999 22:02 58k > >I'm not the DEC expert, so I don't know what's up top (is that the Minc?), >but the 8" drive system is a DEC RX-02. Yes, the cards that should have been in it are visible at the very bottom. > P013.JPG 17-Apr-1999 22:02 61k > >Again, I'll leave the proper ID'ing to the DEC experts, but the PC desktop >type box on the top left looks to be a DECmate?, next to that looks to be >some VT-320s?, the big boxes in the middle look to be RL-01s? Those were two Pro350's in VERY bad shape, the DECmate II's were elsewhere. The drives that look the same are RA81's, the one that looks different is a RA60. The terminals are VT240's. On the far right on top of the printer (?) sitting on top that rack is a TK25. > P014.JPG 17-Apr-1999 22:02 61k > >Whatever that is on the left looks cool, perhaps a tape drive (DEC?), in TU81+ >the middle, on top looks to be a Cipher tape drive of some model, below is >some DEC hard drive I'm guessing, I can almost read the label on the unit RA81 again, IIRC >on the end, so its cheating, but it looks like a VAX something er other. VAX-11/730 on top was a RL02, and another RA81 on the bottom. >The terminal on top looks from the styling to be a DEC teletype of some >sort? (Ok, I'm embarrassingly bad at identifying DEC hardware :) A DECwriter something.... > P020.JPG 17-Apr-1999 22:02 60k > >These must be the HP 1000F chassis' that Jim went home with (what's that >blue thing on top?) That is a Laser of some sort. > P022.JPG 17-Apr-1999 22:02 75k > >On top of the green/red/blue/brown volumes are Xerox 6085 OS manuals (the >2nd generation Xerox 8010). Those green/red/blue/brown volumes were Shipping Registries (you know as in sails on the sea), the manual being looked at is a manual for a rack mount MicroVAX II. > P027.JPG 17-Apr-1999 22:02 77k > >In the far back, to the left, on the shelf, two similar units stacked one >on the other: either DECmates or Rainbow 100's. DECmate II's and Rainbows, and on the floor under them is a tower case for that style machine, I guess you just slip it in? > P037.JPG 17-Apr-1999 22:03 71k > >DECmates? Actually on the left you're mainly seeing the DECmate II's and Rainbows that you saw in P027, on the right are my DECmate III's. This was after I separated the original mess into a pile of what I was and wasn't interested in :^) > P038.JPG 17-Apr-1999 22:03 60k > >I can read these: DECmates. And a TZ-50 tape drive to the right? Behind that pile is a DECmate III in the box, as far as I can tell it's brand new. The three boxes in front are all DECmate III's (same box as a TZ50), a pair of monitors and keyboards, and The motherboard for a Rainbow, and a DEC Professional motherboard. Both monitors seem to work, and I've powered on the DECmate III that was in the box. Now I need some software for them so I can test it better (yes, I know it's on the web). > P042.JPG 17-Apr-1999 22:03 59k > >Aha, someone got a black Bell & Howell Apple ][+ (up front, near >passenger-side door). Well, parts to fix up the one I got a year ago from Jim. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Mon Apr 19 00:58:06 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Dumb OS question Message-ID: <002a01be8a29$98d5e740$1b3bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Tim Shoppa wrote: >Some real-time operating systems can be pressed into service as >general-purpose multi-user OS's. For example, RSX-11M. Others >make quite nice single-user development platforms - for example RT-11. > Did something fall into place here for me? Does the "RT" in RT-11 happen to stand for Real Time? Hans Olminkhof From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 19 00:58:38 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Ancient disk controllers In-Reply-To: <002501be8a20$dacce440$0100c0a8@fuj03> (edick@idcomm.com) References: <002501be8a20$dacce440$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <19990419055838.32524.qmail@brouhaha.com> > SASI, incidentally was essentially a > Single-Target-Single-Initiator SCSI so it wouldn't need a device ID switch. SASI supported eight targets. Since there was only one initiator and no disconnects, the initiator didn't need an ID. But the target devices still needed IDs. SCSI-1 added arbitration (for multiple initiators), disconnects (and reselection), and the 10-byte commands (to support larger devices). I'm not sure whether SASI supported the message phase; that may also be a SCSI-1 innovation. Usually a SASI host can deal with SCSI disk drives. Sometimes a SCSI host can deal with SASI targets, as long as it restricts itself to the SASI commands. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 19 02:08:47 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Ancient disk controllers In-Reply-To: Eric Smith "Re: Ancient disk controllers" (Apr 19, 5:58) References: <002501be8a20$dacce440$0100c0a8@fuj03> <19990419055838.32524.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <9904190808.ZM7084@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 19, 5:58, Eric Smith wrote: > SCSI-1 added arbitration (for multiple initiators), disconnects (and > reselection), and the 10-byte commands (to support larger devices). I'm not > sure whether SASI supported the message phase; that may also be a SCSI-1 > innovation. It didn't; messages first appeared in SCSI-1. > Usually a SASI host can deal with SCSI disk drives. Sometimes a SCSI > host can deal with SASI targets, as long as it restricts itself to the > SASI commands. Some old SCSI hosts can, but most modern ones expect to use messages. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Mon Apr 19 03:14:56 1999 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: All this OT stuff... Message-ID: >> I've installed a filter at my end that should dump most, if not all, >> messages with OT: in the subject line. However, the point remains that I >> should not have had to do so in the first place. Hmm, the problem with that being that occasionally OT conversations are interesting/meaningful.... what we need is a filter that only starts dumping OT threads after the first few messages (enough intelligence to never let *any* 'my language is better than yours', gun laws, ABS braking etc etc. conversations through would be great too.... :*) (Hmm, maybe that sounds a bit heavier than it should be... still, it is Monday morning... ;) cheers Jules > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 19 07:48:01 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Dumb OS question In-Reply-To: <37193616.15F5A159@idirect.com> Message-ID: <199904191050.MAA15528@horus.mch.sni.de> > I one had the responsibility of choosing a CPU, OS and language > (well to be truthful, the choices were made - I needed to figure > out if the choices were OK) to ensure that a READER (scanner > device at one end) connected via a microwave link to a WRITER > (laser plate maker at the other end which produced the actual > plate to print a single newspaper page - about a mile away in the > printing press building). As many plates as were required were > produced by the 6 WRITERs (a computer guided laser printer which > produced metal plates). This was being done back in 1981 and there > was no reasonable device to hold the scanned image from the > READER. :) Nice Job. Reminds me of an application where I had some part in the hardware maintanance, around 1979 - At the RBG (Rechenzentrale bayerischer Genossenschaftsbanken - Computercentere for Bavarian Coop-Banks), we had an OBL (Oprischer Belegleser - 'Optical Form Reader') for scanning bank cheques (OCR), sort them and store the result (*). The host was a /370ish system from SIEMENS running under BS1000, a non-VM OS. The system had a distance of some 60 cm between the reader and the first turnout to decide the proper turnout to take. At a speed of >5 m/s this will leave way less than 100ms for two complete blocked I/O cycles _and_ a decision. Also the host had to store the readed information for further processing on disk _and_ tape. This result in random inserted disk/tape I/Os to be handled without any chance to stop the OBL - even if it would have been possible, the reader would have send some more cheque- informations - not to speak of the loss of time, since it took almost 15 seconds to fire him up. The time frame was prety tough, especialy, since the CPU wasn't a real runner (760 kOps), but the task was well done, even some terminal-I/O was possible for controll status, etc. Around 1978 the SIEMENS sales people did succesfull place BS2000 our (back then new) timeshareing VM system - with one notable exeption: The OBL host did further run with BS1000 1.3. Even a machine more than twice as fast (2.000 kOps) and a changed reader timing couldn't handle the job it in time - The OS was designed to handle resources as flexible as possible to as many users as possible, but with an big backdraw when it has come to _all_time_ guaranteed reaction times in sub second dimensions. It took them some 5 years until they could replace the OS (in fact, the BS1000 OS development was stoped official in 1982, but as late as 1984, SIEMENS was forced to offer new releses to some few but importent customers (like Deutsche Bank), to support new hardware - even a limited VM system was implemented (while keeping the OS still small)). This (and similar) Task helped the BS2000 development a lot, since the OS crew was forced to leave the ivory tower of multi user OSes and learn that the customers did run real world tasks on our machines :) Nowadays the OS is a real fine thing - and almost dead from the companies perspective - if it wheren't for some customer insisting that there is no real replacement :)) History repeats itself. > Do you begin to understand why a real time OS must be able to > guarantee that each "task" be scheduled within a specified time > limit so that the command to the READER to start sending could > be completed within the window? What I want to tell is just the fact that the label has nothing to saay, it is always task dependant - in fact, all OSes are real time, if they finish their work within the needed timeframe (and if not, they are not non-RT, they are just not usable :). Gruss H. (*): a phantasic machine - it could transport a used 100 Mark note and store it properly into the 'trash' register without any problems - and fast, ubelivable - more than 15 cheques per second - so fast, the paper seamed to be an continuos band - just the justage of the turnout was kind of a nicghtmare, but I loved it. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Apr 19 06:05:29 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Ancient disk controllers Message-ID: <19990419110529.4985.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 19, 5:58, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Usually a SASI host can deal with SCSI disk drives. Sometimes a SCSI > > host can deal with SASI targets, as long as it restricts itself to the > > SASI commands. > > Some old SCSI hosts can, but most modern ones expect to use messages. I have an ancient driver for monochrome Macs that can be set to old SCSI<->ST-506 bridges like the Adaptec 4000-series or even a couple of SASI controllers. I know I've seen one SASI<->ST-506 bridge - inside the Commodore PET D9060/D9090 hard drives. There's a Tandon TM602S (or TM603S) inside the box, a SASI interface to it, then a Commodore "DOS" board that speaks SASI out one end, IEEE-488 out the other. One of these days, I'll disassemble the ROMs on the D9060 and look for the part that reads the 5Mb/7.5Mb jumper and sets up the drive parameters, then patch in the right numbers for an ST-225 so I can continue to use the thing after my last 5Mb mechanism dies. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Apr 19 06:58:34 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <19990419115834.21563.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> I have a chance to buy a 4kW core stack for the PDP-8/i (-8/L). It's more than I want to pay, $100. My question is, what are these things going for these days? I don't really *need* it. The guy selling it has more core than this that he saved from a "recycler", but he's in it for the money, not out of a love for classic machines. Most of his memory, he sells to people who want something to stick on the shelf and "ooh" and "aah" at. :-( So... for those people who have been trying to get core over the past year or two, what's it costing? I'm trying to decide if I want to grab this stack to put into my -8/i and bring it up to 8kW, an entirely optional project (I have all the other parts I would need for the upgrade from a PDP-8/L that I got in 1982 that was sold as parts-only, bad core, and most of the I/O and part of the CPU missing). I think he's charging too much, but maybe I'm disconnected with the current pricing. I do know that if I pass on it, there are several other people who are waiting for this exact piece, so it'll be sold one way or the other when I answer him. OTOH, I do have a broken (20-30 fractured cores) -8/L stack that I've contemplated repairing. It's a parity stack, so I can scavenge wire and cores from the parity plane (or just use the parity plane intact as another bit, then use one pad of broken core to repair the other, less damaged pad of broken core). Any thoughts out there on core repair? It's 1968 DEC core with, AFAIK a seperate sense and inhibit wire, which is both good and bad - good because the cores are larger than three-wire core, bad because I'd have to thread up, down and two diagonals. Of course, I could always sell the broken plane to a collector and use the money to fund part of this working stack. So many options. In terms of time spent, it's cheaper for me to work a few hours and earn the money that the core pirate wants; in terms of lessons learned, repairing a 30-year- old core stack would be a big thrill, *if* it worked. Thanks, -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 19 08:32:36 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Ancient disk controllers Message-ID: <000a01be8a69$170bc8c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> The mode in which the Shugart SA1400 controllers, after which some of XEBEC's controllers were patterned, was this ultra-simple model. That may not have been the only mode, but I've got an 8" drive controller which seems to work in this way, as it also has no device address switch. I've never found the identifying logo or whatever, but the S-100 adapter I got with this setup has a PROM marked "SA1400." I've also read about this single-target-single initiator mode in the early papers we used in establishing the SCSI-I standard back in the mid-1980's. ( I had the "privilege" of sitting through a number of the standards committee meetings on behalf of my employer back then) Clearly, SOME makers had used this as an operating mode. Multiple disk drives were not that common among small systems back in those days. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 12:07 AM Subject: Re: Ancient disk controllers >> SASI, incidentally was essentially a >> Single-Target-Single-Initiator SCSI so it wouldn't need a device ID switch. > >SASI supported eight targets. Since there was only one initiator and no >disconnects, the initiator didn't need an ID. But the target devices still >needed IDs. > >SCSI-1 added arbitration (for multiple initiators), disconnects (and >reselection), and the 10-byte commands (to support larger devices). I'm not >sure whether SASI supported the message phase; that may also be a SCSI-1 >innovation. > >Usually a SASI host can deal with SCSI disk drives. Sometimes a SCSI >host can deal with SASI targets, as long as it restricts itself to the >SASI commands. From mbg at world.std.com Mon Apr 19 08:37:09 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: Dumb OS question Message-ID: <199904191337.AA02533@world.std.com> >Did something fall into place here for me? >Does the "RT" in RT-11 happen to stand for Real Time? It sure does... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Apr 19 08:52:09 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:19 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <005601be8a6b$d2200480$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> In my limited experience with the PDP-8E, memory seems very difficult to come by. I'd give my eye teeth for a 32k semiconductor board, but both semiconductor and core seems to be nowhere. Jay West -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 7:05 AM Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? > >I have a chance to buy a 4kW core stack for the PDP-8/i (-8/L). It's >more than I want to pay, $100. My question is, what are these things >going for these days? I don't really *need* it. The guy selling it >has more core than this that he saved from a "recycler", but he's in >it for the money, not out of a love for classic machines. Most of his >memory, he sells to people who want something to stick on the shelf and >"ooh" and "aah" at. :-( > >So... for those people who have been trying to get core over the past year >or two, what's it costing? I'm trying to decide if I want to grab this >stack to put into my -8/i and bring it up to 8kW, an entirely optional >project (I have all the other parts I would need for the upgrade from a >PDP-8/L that I got in 1982 that was sold as parts-only, bad core, and most >of the I/O and part of the CPU missing). > >I think he's charging too much, but maybe I'm disconnected with the >current pricing. I do know that if I pass on it, there are several >other people who are waiting for this exact piece, so it'll be sold >one way or the other when I answer him. > >OTOH, I do have a broken (20-30 fractured cores) -8/L stack that I've >contemplated repairing. It's a parity stack, so I can scavenge wire >and cores from the parity plane (or just use the parity plane intact >as another bit, then use one pad of broken core to repair the other, >less damaged pad of broken core). Any thoughts out there on core repair? >It's 1968 DEC core with, AFAIK a seperate sense and inhibit wire, which >is both good and bad - good because the cores are larger than three-wire >core, bad because I'd have to thread up, down and two diagonals. > >Of course, I could always sell the broken plane to a collector and use >the money to fund part of this working stack. So many options. In terms >of time spent, it's cheaper for me to work a few hours and earn the money >that the core pirate wants; in terms of lessons learned, repairing a 30-year- >old core stack would be a big thrill, *if* it worked. > >Thanks, > >-ethan > > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 19 09:05:03 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <005601be8a6b$d2200480$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: > In my limited experience with the PDP-8E, memory seems very difficult to > come by. I'd give my eye teeth for a 32k semiconductor board, but both > semiconductor and core seems to be nowhere. Core tends to be scarce and 100 for a good or atleast unabused stack may not be bad. HOWEVER.... core is machine specific and you want to stay with a coreplane compatable with the existing drivers and sense amps. Using cores of a differnt size or material will make your life quite hard as it will take a different half select current and also have a different slice timing. the latter is important as PDP-8 system timing and memory timing are pretty well locked to each other. Unless your doing a restoration, you may consider hiding a semi ram in the core and fake it. Do however put a battery and powerfail so that it acts like core.... ;) Allison From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Apr 19 09:08:41 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <19990419115834.21563.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Apr 19, 1999 04:58:34 am" Message-ID: <199904191408.JAA01593@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > > I have a chance to buy a 4kW core stack for the PDP-8/i (-8/L). It's > more than I want to pay, $100. My question is, what are these things > going for these days? I don't really *need* it. The guy selling it > has more core than this that he saved from a "recycler", but he's in > it for the money, not out of a love for classic machines. Most of his > memory, he sells to people who want something to stick on the shelf and > "ooh" and "aah" at. :-( > > So... for those people who have been trying to get core over the past year > or two, what's it costing? I'm trying to decide if I want to grab this > stack to put into my -8/i and bring it up to 8kW, an entirely optional > project (I have all the other parts I would need for the upgrade from a > PDP-8/L that I got in 1982 that was sold as parts-only, bad core, and most > of the I/O and part of the CPU missing). > > I think he's charging too much, but maybe I'm disconnected with the > current pricing. I do know that if I pass on it, there are several > other people who are waiting for this exact piece, so it'll be sold > one way or the other when I answer him. > Actually, thats probably a reasonable price. Core memory boards, probably non-working, have been going for a high price. Age and a nice visible setup increase the price. Now, I havent seen the memory in question. but the pdp8/e core memory i've seen is all covered by a clear plastic shield. This increases its value as a display piece, as you can easily see all the core, and its all protected. Of course, in order to use the core on a pdp8/? you would need a couple of support boards in addition to the core plane board itself. I would say that just the core plane, being of a nice size, and being very good 'visually' to display, and somewhat because its a PDP8 series board (nostalgia value), that its probably worth $100 all by itself. If it comes with the 2 support boards and the top connector things at that price, then i'd say its a bargain. Just my 2cents. -Lawrence LeMay From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 19 08:57:24 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: How to read recalcitrant floppies? In-Reply-To: <19990417185212.10107.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990419085724.00ea02e0@vpwisfirewall> At 11:52 AM 4/17/99 -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: >I am attempting to back up some floppies from a project I did a few years ago. >The sets of 3.5" 1.44Mb IBM floppies have been stored in a box, in a cool and >dry room. Out of one set of 12 and one set of 15 disks, I have four disks >that have read errors that DOS won't get past, bad sectors and the like. > >Are there any tools to go divining on DOS floppies that work better than >an endless succession of "R"etries? Try several different drives on different machines. Drives can be out of alignment with respect to each other, and this includes the machine that wrote the disk as well as the machines that read them today. Try reading them on other types of machines, like Macs or Amigas with proper DOS-reading abilities. Another good trick is to hold the disk between your thumb and first finger, then whack each edge on the table-top. Also, get out the can of compressed air to clean out each drive before you try this, and open the shutter on each disk and blow them out, too. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 19 08:39:04 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Amiga 2000HD Hard disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990419083904.00dd1420@vpwisfirewall> At 03:58 AM 4/18/99 -0400, Doug Spence wrote: > I have a Ferret >SCSI-II controller in my A1200. (For some strange reason, scsi.device in >the A1200 actually drives IDE instead of SCSI.) As I recall, the move to IDE was a cost-cutting measure, and the use of the old SCSI device name was for backward compatibility reasons in software, of course. - John From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Mon Apr 19 09:26:45 1999 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Using HP-UX, the book In-Reply-To: References: <01be8893$e05fd720$7a9ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: >I picked this book up when I bought some mac stuff the other day thinking >someone on the list might want it. Might be more like it (3 fat volumes, >but I didn't check the titles closely yet). $2 and shipping to the first >who asks for it. > >Hewlett Packard HP 9000 workstations, Using HP-UX > >Book covers the 1987 to 1992 versions, and looks like the sort of thing to >keep next to the computer while you learn to do the basics (copying files, >email, etc.). 9000 workstations, series 300, 400, and 700 computers. I guess I could use that as that is exactly what I just salvaged this weekend from the college. I was in fact going to ask some questions on this list. Like if you can run Linux on one of these things and how in the world would I get it on its hard drive anyway. Does the book get into technical details like pinouts and stuff? I live in London, UK, so how much would it cost to get here? Let's continue this on private email. Thanks, Nasos. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Apr 19 09:45:59 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <19990419144559.3171.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> When I mentioned the chance to buy a 4kW stack for the PDP-8/i for $100... --- Lawrence LeMay responded: > Actually, that's probably a reasonable price. Foo! > Core memory boards, probably non-working, have been going for a high price. I got sniped for a PDP-11 double-core stack this weekend, backplane included, that went for $38, no reserve. > Age and a nice visible setup increase the price. The core stack for a PDP-8(i|L) is older than much of what's on the market, but none of the good stuff is visible at all on it. > Now, I havent seen the memory in question. but the pdp8/e core > memory i've seen is all covered by a clear plastic shield. This > increases its value as a display piece, as you can easily see > all the core, and its all protected. It's hard to describe the arrangement, but the core plane in question here is a block with two edge-connectors on either side, "dual-height" as they say, but it's much thicker - let's try bad ASCII art to illustrate... ######## ######## xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx == ######## ######## ######## ######## ######## ######## core planes paddle-boards with wire harness The outside of the core plane part is covered in a "diode matrix", with a wad of twisted-pair wires that go off to paddle-boards, one for the sense bits, one for the inhibit bits. The address lines come up the diode boards, the data comes up and down the paddle-boards. There are several PCBs with core in the core stack, 4-bits per layer with an optional parity layer that has one pad of bits and three pads of core-less X-Y wires. None of this is visible when the plane is assembled, and it's soldered together with lines of wires going up and down the planes. > Of course, in order to use the core on a pdp8/? you would need > a couple of support boards in addition to the core plane board > itself. I would say that just the core plane, being of a nice > size, and being very good 'visually' to display, and somewhat > because its a PDP8 series board (nostalgia value), that its > probably worth $100 all by itself. If it comes with the 2 support > boards and the top connector things at that price, then i'd say > its a bargain. You are thinking of newer hardware. The pre-OMNIBUS 8's have a wad of individual, single-height cards that contain the sense-amps and the inhibit drivers. I have a pile of them from an -8/L that someone else had already begun to strip for parts before I bought it (it also happens to contain the only DEC lock that does *not* use the XX2247 key). I'm not worried about the analog stuff... I need the core. Of course, as Allison pointed out, I could always stick in a lump of battery- backed static RAM. I was contemplating building a wiring harness to adapt an RX8E on the back of either an -8/L (which has 8kW of core out of 12kW in an expansion cabinet) or on the -8/i. I would use berg connector pins to stick the wires on the back side of the backplane (to avoid soldering, of course; but worst case, I just wire-wrap on a connector or two and use sheilded ribbon to move the signals around. The joys of restoration in a market of scarcity. :-P -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 19 11:45:23 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199904191447.QAA27826@horus.mch.sni.de> > If you really want to see a drivers only contest, watch IROC racing (was > just on ESPN this afternoon) - a dozen identical cars, and in 40 laps, the > pack spread out to a few car lengths. The winner was a Pontiac. So was > the loser, and every other car in the race. I think that it is more fun to > watch an event where the vehicles differ. > We really need two sections of the whole competition - one section with > fixed platforms, and one section permitting custom hardware. Sounds like Formula 1 and Formula Volkswagen (Back in the 70's a very popular over her - all cars based on VW Beetle). Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From adavie at mad.scientist.com Mon Apr 19 10:11:10 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: FA: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P Message-ID: <001001be8a76$dc4f2160$84f438cb@davie> This is sort of a heads-up. Even though I am the actual "seller", I'm really putting this item up for a close friend. I'd buy it myself if I could, but I'm in an anti-aquisition mode myself. It's an OSI Challenger 1P computer + documentation http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=93182204 There are some nice piccies even if you're not interested in bidding. HI to all :) A From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Apr 19 10:21:09 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <19990419144559.3171.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Apr 19, 1999 07:45:59 am" Message-ID: <199904191521.KAA01748@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > When I mentioned the chance to buy a 4kW stack for the PDP-8/i for $100... > > --- Lawrence LeMay responded: > > > Actually, that's probably a reasonable price. > > Foo! Well, I didnt say that I would pay $100... Or that it was a great price. But it might be a fair price. Of course, If i didnt already have a bunch of core of various types, and if i needed it to restore a pdp8 system (which would be at the absolute top of my list to do, as the first computer I ever saw, and every used, was a PDP8/e) then I would probably pay it. And i'd be cursing at whatever the past 20-30 years had done to make the board not work anymore ;( And i'd probably try to locate Lassiter and see if my some miracle he could repair the board, etc. But, thats just me. To me, having a PDP8/e is the ultimate dream machine. That, and having the room to store a PDP8/e... -Lawrence LeMay > > > Core memory boards, probably non-working, have been going for a high price. > > I got sniped for a PDP-11 double-core stack this weekend, backplane included, > that went for $38, no reserve. > > > Age and a nice visible setup increase the price. > > The core stack for a PDP-8(i|L) is older than much of what's on the > market, but none of the good stuff is visible at all on it. > > > Now, I havent seen the memory in question. but the pdp8/e core > > memory i've seen is all covered by a clear plastic shield. This > > increases its value as a display piece, as you can easily see > > all the core, and its all protected. > > It's hard to describe the arrangement, but the core plane in question > here is a block with two edge-connectors on either side, "dual-height" > as they say, but it's much thicker - let's try bad ASCII art to illustrate... > > > ######## ######## > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx == ######## ######## > ######## ######## ######## ######## > > core planes paddle-boards with wire harness > > The outside of the core plane part is covered in a "diode matrix", with > a wad of twisted-pair wires that go off to paddle-boards, one for the > sense bits, one for the inhibit bits. The address lines come up the diode > boards, the data comes up and down the paddle-boards. > > There are several PCBs with core in the core stack, 4-bits per layer with > an optional parity layer that has one pad of bits and three pads of core-less > X-Y wires. None of this is visible when the plane is assembled, and it's > soldered together with lines of wires going up and down the planes. > > > Of course, in order to use the core on a pdp8/? you would need > > a couple of support boards in addition to the core plane board > > itself. I would say that just the core plane, being of a nice > > size, and being very good 'visually' to display, and somewhat > > because its a PDP8 series board (nostalgia value), that its > > probably worth $100 all by itself. If it comes with the 2 support > > boards and the top connector things at that price, then i'd say > > its a bargain. > > You are thinking of newer hardware. The pre-OMNIBUS 8's have a wad of > individual, single-height cards that contain the sense-amps and the inhibit > drivers. I have a pile of them from an -8/L that someone else had already > begun to strip for parts before I bought it (it also happens to contain the > only DEC lock that does *not* use the XX2247 key). I'm not worried about > the analog stuff... I need the core. > > Of course, as Allison pointed out, I could always stick in a lump of battery- > backed static RAM. I was contemplating building a wiring harness to adapt > an RX8E on the back of either an -8/L (which has 8kW of core out of 12kW in > an expansion cabinet) or on the -8/i. I would use berg connector pins to > stick the wires on the back side of the backplane (to avoid soldering, of > course; but worst case, I just wire-wrap on a connector or two and use > sheilded ribbon to move the signals around. > > The joys of restoration in a market of scarcity. :-P > > -ethan > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Apr 19 10:26:36 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: How to read recalcitrant floppies? Message-ID: <19990419152636.1431.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Foust wrote: > At 11:52 AM 4/17/99 -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >I am attempting to back up some floppies from a project I did a few years > >ago. > > Try several different drives on different machines. Done. Used a *new* drive in case my regular drive was dirty, too. > Try reading them on other types of machines, like Macs or Amigas with > proper DOS-reading abilities. That was my next trick. The Amiga reads disks strangely (one track at a time in MFM mode, then converts MFM to binary data by using a portion of the graphics hardware to run a miniterm transformation on the buffer; it uses a 4096-bit shift register in the sound chip to slurp up the track in the first place, the major reason why C= sold 1/2-speed high-density drives that work on Amigas going back to 1985 with no hardware modifications). I'll try the Amiga route this week. > Another good trick is to hold the disk between your thumb and first finger, > then whack each edge on the table-top. I've done that. My question is, how does that work? > Also, get out the can of compressed air to clean out each drive before you > try this, and open the shutter on each disk and blow them out, too. I typically blow gently on the open shutter, being *very* careful to keep the airstream dry. I am not blessed with a collection of canned air. Thanks for the tips, -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Apr 19 10:35:14 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P Message-ID: <00bb01be8a7a$38d551e0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Looks like it takes 240v. Can it be changes to 120v I wonder? I'm not really into micro's, but I do remember the Ohio Scientific stuff vaguely.... Jay -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Davie To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 10:19 AM Subject: FA: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P >This is sort of a heads-up. Even though I am the actual "seller", I'm >really putting this item up for a close friend. I'd buy it myself if I >could, but I'm in an anti-aquisition mode myself. It's an OSI Challenger 1P >computer + documentation >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=93182204 >There are some nice piccies even if you're not interested in bidding. >HI to all :) >A > > > From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 19 10:35:27 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? References: <19990419115834.21563.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <371B4D3F.CD1EB8D9@rain.org> The only real measure I have seen is on ebay, although others can talk about what goes on in the newsgroups. The last PDP-8i core stack ended at $76.00 with 14 bids and the reserve was not met. The URL is: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=91272199 Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I have a chance to buy a 4kW core stack for the PDP-8/i (-8/L). It's > more than I want to pay, $100. My question is, what are these things > going for these days? I don't really *need* it. The guy selling it > has more core than this that he saved from a "recycler", but he's in > it for the money, not out of a love for classic machines. Most of his > memory, he sells to people who want something to stick on the shelf and > "ooh" and "aah" at. :-( > > So... for those people who have been trying to get core over the past year > or two, what's it costing? I'm trying to decide if I want to grab this > stack to put into my -8/i and bring it up to 8kW, an entirely optional > project (I have all the other parts I would need for the upgrade from a > PDP-8/L that I got in 1982 that was sold as parts-only, bad core, and most > of the I/O and part of the CPU missing). > > I think he's charging too much, but maybe I'm disconnected with the > current pricing. I do know that if I pass on it, there are several > other people who are waiting for this exact piece, so it'll be sold > one way or the other when I answer him. > > OTOH, I do have a broken (20-30 fractured cores) -8/L stack that I've > contemplated repairing. It's a parity stack, so I can scavenge wire > and cores from the parity plane (or just use the parity plane intact > as another bit, then use one pad of broken core to repair the other, > less damaged pad of broken core). Any thoughts out there on core repair? > It's 1968 DEC core with, AFAIK a seperate sense and inhibit wire, which > is both good and bad - good because the cores are larger than three-wire > core, bad because I'd have to thread up, down and two diagonals. > > Of course, I could always sell the broken plane to a collector and use > the money to fund part of this working stack. So many options. In terms > of time spent, it's cheaper for me to work a few hours and earn the money > that the core pirate wants; in terms of lessons learned, repairing a 30-year- > old core stack would be a big thrill, *if* it worked. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Apr 19 10:43:18 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <19990419154318.8692.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Marvin wrote: > > The only real measure I have seen is on ebay, although others can talk about > what goes on in the newsgroups. The last PDP-8i core stack ended at $76.00 > with 14 bids and the reserve was not met. The URL is: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=91272199 > That's me. I had the high bid. The reserve was $100. The seller is willing to sell to me first if I pay the reserve amount. I personally was not unhappy when the price was around $50. I didn't _really_ mind $76, but at $100, I'm forced to consider it hard. I mean, I already *have* working core, several stacks in working machines. I don't _need_ this, thus the debate. Thanks, -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 19 10:43:04 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: How to read recalcitrant floppies? References: <3.0.5.32.19990419085724.00ea02e0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <371B4F08.E94F9D7F@rain.org> John Foust wrote: > > At 11:52 AM 4/17/99 -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >I am attempting to back up some floppies from a project I did a few years > ago. > >The sets of 3.5" 1.44Mb IBM floppies have been stored in a box, in a cool and > >dry room. Out of one set of 12 and one set of 15 disks, I have four disks > >that have read errors that DOS won't get past, bad sectors and the like. > > > >Are there any tools to go divining on DOS floppies that work better than > >an endless succession of "R"etries? > > Try several different drives on different machines. Drives can be > out of alignment with respect to each other, and this includes the > machine that wrote the disk as well as the machines that read them today. One of the projects I've always wanted to try is to take the radial adjustment on some floppy drives and replace it with a micrometer adjustment. Although I don't know for sure, I would imagine this would be a somewhat standard setup for companies that recover data. I don't see an easy way to make the azimuth adjustable, and I'm not sure it would be necessary (at least for purposes of recovering data.) From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 19 12:49:12 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P In-Reply-To: <00bb01be8a7a$38d551e0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <199904191551.RAA04682@horus.mch.sni.de> Date sent: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:35:14 -0500 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: "Jay West" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P Originally to: > Looks like it takes 240v. Can it be changes to 120v I wonder? I'm not really > into micro's, but I do remember the Ohio Scientific stuff vaguely.... All you need is a transformer 240V<->120V - these are easy to get, maybe look in shops where they sell electronics for tourists, or South American 'visitors' ... I'ts always handy to have one. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Apr 19 11:23:49 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <19990419115834.21563.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990419090243.00c62250@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 04:58 AM 4/19/99 -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: >So... for those people who have been trying to get core over the past year >or two, what's it costing? I'm trying to decide if I want to grab this >stack to put into my -8/i and bring it up to 8kW, an entirely optional >project (I have all the other parts I would need for the upgrade from a >PDP-8/L that I got in 1982 that was sold as parts-only, bad core, and most >of the I/O and part of the CPU missing). As Allison pointed out, its called a "stack" for a reason as I've discovered over the last 20 months. Core memory consists of three major elements, the select logic, the planes themselves, and a set of current source/sense amplifiers that are used to drive it. Depending on the design these can be somewhat generic or not at all generic. The absolute best value is to get a complete set of core plane boards that came out of the DEC factory working. The second best is to get a set that DEC had refurbished, and everything else loses value from there. When I joined this list, I did so because I was looking for some memory for a PDP-8/M that I had. The system was complete except for memory. Later, I discovered that 4K wasn't sufficient really to run much more than the paper tape stuff so I really needed 8K. I have searched fairly widely, both through the internet and through the "unofficial" DEC channels. This is what I've discovered. DEC spares still carries core for the 8/e/f/m, 4k is $1,725 per set. Ideally you need 12K for OS/8 and that means you really want an 8/E dual backplane or an expansion box. Many of the DEC "wholesalers" have a very small selection of OMNIBUS boards, I discovered Mitch over at Keyways and bought from him a G104, G227, and H220 board (one 4K stack), but they were not a matched set. (total cost $275) While Mitch would have been happy to take them back, I chose to keep them on the assumption that getting a complete set working would be easier than finding a complete set. Every now and then one of the wholesalers has a complete PDP-8 for sale. I found one in LA for $800. I had a friend check it out and it was a dead 8/f. Memory was third party (DATARAM) and couldn't be verified. Pass. Two months ago I found an 8/M at auction at SRI with a 8K stack and a 4K stack in it. I bid $206 and won it. Amazingly it actually worked so I either managed to get memory for my non-working 8/M or I still have an 8/M with no memory and an extra 8/M. :-) The bottom line is that real honest to god core that works is pretty hard to come by. I've never seen any core for the 8/I or 8/L (except the ebay one, and the 8/L that wsa offered for trade on this list). There is an excellent theory of operation on core planes in the PDP-8/a miniprocessor users handbook. Between that, my current probe, and my scope I believe I can get the dead 4K stack I've got running again. And I'm currently building a 32KW semiconductor board so that I'll have a backup. --Chuck From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Apr 19 11:33:37 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: core stacks Message-ID: <00db01be8a82$6060f0e0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> ISTR that if you had a core set for an 8 that was "mismatched", the hardware handbook had the procedure for using a scope to "tune" a set into the appropriate range. Jay West From patd at csis.on.ca Mon Apr 19 11:33:39 1999 From: patd at csis.on.ca (Pat Del Vecchio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Convergent Technologies System Message-ID: <371B5AE3.F44D7A7E@csis.on.ca> Hello: I recently acquired a Convergent Technologies system model CG-1000 miniframe system. Tried hooking up a dumb terminal with no luck. The system appears to be trying to boot from the hard disk but my guess is that the operating system has been deleted :(. Does anyone have any technical information on this system? I gather from searching the web that this system ran a flavour of Unix (RTOS?). Any and all info appreciated. Thanks. Here's some system specs for the curious: 68010 10 MHZ cpu 2 Meg ram 2 - ST251 hard disks Archive Corporation tape backup 5 1/4" floppy drive 2 - RS232 ports 1 - RS422A port 1 Parallel port Front panel says "Motorola Information Systems 6350" Regards Pat Del Vecchio From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Apr 19 11:40:04 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <19990419164004.23367.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Well, I didnt say that I would pay $100... Or that it was a great price. > But it might be a fair price. > > And i'd probably try to locate Lassiter and see if my some miracle he > could repair the board, etc. I don't get the reference. > But, thats just me. To me, having a PDP8/e is the ultimate dream machine. > That, and having the room to store a PDP8/e... A PDP-8/e isn't all that large. Some of the peripherals can cause a space problem... -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Apr 19 11:47:24 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: core stacks In-Reply-To: <00db01be8a82$6060f0e0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990419094457.00c88280@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 11:33 AM 4/19/99 -0500, Jay wrote: >ISTR that if you had a core set for an 8 that was "mismatched", the hardware >handbook had the procedure for using a scope to "tune" a set into the >appropriate range. Not exactly, this does allow you to "fine tune" a set that already is close enough, but it doesn't necessarily get you close enough if you weren't there already. There is a graph in of the hysterisis(sp?) region in the 8/a book and tuning consists of making sure that the write current and inhibit current cancel, and that write current from both the x and y drivers will just flip the bit but not risk flipping other bits. --Chuck From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Mon Apr 19 11:44:36 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <990419124436.20c0096a@trailing-edge.com> >> Well, I didnt say that I would pay $100... Or that it was a great price. >> But it might be a fair price. >> >> And i'd probably try to locate Lassiter and see if my some miracle he >> could repair the board, etc. >I don't get the reference. I'm not sure I do, either. Maybe he means Charles Lasner, a frequent contributor to alt.sys.pdp8 (aka PDP8-LOVERS) up until a few years ago? >> But, thats just me. To me, having a PDP8/e is the ultimate dream machine. >> That, and having the room to store a PDP8/e... >A PDP-8/e isn't all that large. Some of the peripherals can cause a >space problem... Even the disk drives are rather small - a fully configured system with multiple RK05's, DECtapes, a few ASR33's, and one of the fixed head disks weighs well under a half-ton, making it a "small" system by the standards of many :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Apr 19 11:45:15 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Seeking docs: HP 1000-F minicomputer Message-ID: 'nuff said? I saved a pair of these critters at the Paxotn auction, now need some docs so I can figure out exactly what I'm dealing with here. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 19 12:09:24 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Lassiter? Message-ID: I assumed he meant John Lassiter of UNIX fame... Do I win the prize? Aaron From elvey at hal.com Mon Apr 19 12:17:18 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199904191717.KAA05205@civic.hal.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Ok, the environment is any home micro from the 70s or 80s that ran on any > processor. The more rudimentary the processor, the more points you get. > I choose the 4004. Hi I've already written the 4004 simulator as long as you deside to run it on a simulated SIM-4 board. Just writing code for the processor is chalanging enough. Things like doing bitwise ands, require subroutines. Dwight From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 19 12:28:21 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Q-Bus and Unibus to ATA info In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990419094457.00c88280@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 19, 99 09:47:24 am Message-ID: <199904191728.KAA03820@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 681 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990419/f03778d3/attachment.ksh From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Apr 19 12:33:27 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <990419124436.20c0096a@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM" at "Apr 19, 1999 12:44:36 pm" Message-ID: <199904191733.RAA01005@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > >> Well, I didnt say that I would pay $100... Or that it was a great price. > >> But it might be a fair price. > >> > >> And i'd probably try to locate Lassiter and see if my some miracle he > >> could repair the board, etc. > > >I don't get the reference. Neither do I, and I'm the one who wrote it... > > I'm not sure I do, either. Maybe he means Charles Lasner, a frequent > contributor to alt.sys.pdp8 (aka PDP8-LOVERS) up until a few years ago? Bingo, Thats who I meant. -Lawrence LeMay From elvey at hal.com Mon Apr 19 12:34:57 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199904191734.KAA05211@civic.hal.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > <> processor. The more rudimentary the processor, the more points you get. > > <> I choose the 4004. > > < > > > > > TMS1000 chip. > > Wow, you have a TMS1000 based micro? What the heck is it? "Simon Says!" Dwight From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Mon Apr 19 12:43:57 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <990419134357.20c0096a@trailing-edge.com> >> >> And i'd probably try to locate Lassiter and see if my some miracle he >> >> could repair the board, etc. >> >> >I don't get the reference. >Neither do I, and I'm the one who wrote it... >> I'm not sure I do, either. Maybe he means Charles Lasner, a frequent >> contributor to alt.sys.pdp8 (aka PDP8-LOVERS) up until a few years ago? >Bingo, Thats who I meant. Is Charles still with us? I haven't heard a peep from him since the mid-(Lasnerian)-90's. (Bonus points to anyone out there who was reading alt.folklore.urban back when "Lasnerian" was coined!) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 19 12:44:28 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <000601be8a8c$469e8140$0100c0a8@fuj03> It's true that may be more interesting when you have different vehicles, but if you're trying to determine which of two is faster, don't you focus on those two? Having lots of variations in the hardware only tends to muddy the water. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 8:57 AM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing > >> If you really want to see a drivers only contest, watch IROC racing (was >> just on ESPN this afternoon) - a dozen identical cars, and in 40 laps, the >> pack spread out to a few car lengths. The winner was a Pontiac. So was >> the loser, and every other car in the race. I think that it is more fun to >> watch an event where the vehicles differ. > >> We really need two sections of the whole competition - one section with >> fixed platforms, and one section permitting custom hardware. > >Sounds like Formula 1 and Formula Volkswagen (Back in the 70's a >very popular over her - all cars based on VW Beetle). > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK From clintw at colorado.cirrus.com Mon Apr 19 13:02:37 1999 From: clintw at colorado.cirrus.com (Clint Wolff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Q-Bus and Unibus to ATA info Message-ID: <199904191802.MAA06791@ws2044.colorado.cirrus.com> I have been using a CMD technology (http://www.cmd.com) CQD-2xx/TM SCSI <--> QBUS controller in my microvax II, and have been quite happy with it. It emulates MSCP and TMSCP, so no additional drivers are required. Unfortunately, at $800, it is about $800 more than I paid for the computer (sigh). The only down side is, Ultrix 3.1 won't work with a drive with more than 1.2Gb or so, but with some partition magic it works just fine. Also it will talk to my Archive Python DAT tape drive. On the other hand, I have been pondering the development of a ATA drive controller that emulates MSCP (and possibly TMSCP). There is a DEC document that describes MSCP (I don't have the part number handy). Does anyone have a copy they would give/sell/load to me? Thanks, clint > > I don't know if anyone noticed a USENET posting from the Ukraine about a DEC > Hobbyist site. It has pictures AND a bunch of files about connecting ATA > harddrives to a Unibus or Q-Bus system. I was interested in the idea of > using modern HD's so I ftp'd the data and have put it on my FTP site (the > one in Ukraine is, not surprisingly, painfully slow to respond) > > ftp://digital.dp.ua/DEC/ Original site > > ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dsu/ <- ATA files from original site > ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dsu.tar <- tar of above files > > It looks interesting, but it also looks like it will take someone a lot > better with the Hardware side of things than I am to make use of this info. > >From briefly looking at the Q-Bus adapter, it looks as if the chips are all > Soviet, which would probably make this more than a little difficult to use. > > Zane > From emu at ecubics.com Mon Apr 19 13:27:26 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Q-Bus and Unibus to ATA info Message-ID: <011101be8a92$47a92bc0$5d01a8c0@p2350.ecubuero> Hi, -----Original Message----- From: Clint Wolff To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Q-Bus and Unibus to ATA info >On the other hand, I have been pondering the development of a ATA >drive controller that emulates MSCP (and possibly TMSCP). I'm sitting on the layout of one ;-)) Problem is, you pay appr 100$ license fee for MSCP, and another 100$ for TMSCP. cheers, emanuel From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Mon Apr 19 13:35:49 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <199904191835.OAA10159@platy.cs.unc.edu> ] How much memory is used can be defined in two ways. (a) the number of ] bytes, and (b) how much contiguous memory must be present in order to allow ] the code to be implemented. It requires 200 bytes of RAM is not a valid ] statement if that RAM has to be scattered over a 32-KByte range. ... Worrying about using 32K? For a simple little Roman Numeral pro... uh... <* light bulb goes on *> You naughty _naughty_ programmer! That's not at all in the spirit of the competition! Bill. (Wish I'd thought of it.) From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 19 14:07:23 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Convergent Technologies System In-Reply-To: <371B5AE3.F44D7A7E@csis.on.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Pat Del Vecchio wrote: > I recently acquired a Convergent Technologies system model CG-1000 > miniframe system. Tried hooking up a dumb terminal with no luck. The > system appears to be trying to boot from the hard disk but my guess is > that the operating system has been deleted :(. Does anyone have any > technical information on this system? > I gather from searching the web that this system ran a flavour of Unix > (RTOS?). Any and all info appreciated. Thanks. What you've got there is the sibling of the AT&T Unix PC. The OS was called CTIX. I'm told that some Unix PC binaries will run on it, but you still need an OS. Which would probably be on a tape. That line was pretty well dead when I worked for Unisys at the old Convergent campus in San Jose. But there are a few folks with knowledge still around. I'd recommend a thorough browse of the comp.sys.3b1 newsgroup -- it doesn't get enough traffic to be indexed as a separate newsgroup by Dejanews lately, you have to do a power search and put that in the newsgroup field and specify dates between several years past and now. Whether anybody can actually supply an OS tape at this point is anybody's guess, and I doubt that Unisys could. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Apr 19 14:19:19 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <19990419191919.11058.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lawrence LeMay wrote: Someone else suggested: > > I'm not sure I do, either. Maybe he means Charles Lasner, a frequent > > contributor to alt.sys.pdp8 (aka PDP8-LOVERS) up until a few years ago? > > Bingo, Thats who I meant. Charlie is indeed most wise, if you can read through his reams of detailed answers. I have always found him to be a great help in ferreting out bizarre tidbits of trivia. Having been to his house in Queens, I can say that he does have quite the wide range of hardware knowledge, but I think even he would blanch at attempting to disassemble a core pad and scavenge the bits (literally) to repair a broken plane. I know I'm intimidated by the prospect, but I figure worst case I broke something that was already broken. I wish I had one of the stereo inspection microscopes that I used when I worked on the factory floor at a Lucent plant in Columbus. It has a sliding base and an optional pneumatic pedal to fix the jig in place. We used it to inspect solder fillets on SMT edge connectors for circuit packs (the AT&T name for a PCB) for phone switches. If I had one of those for a month, I could probably get the view necessary to attempt to thread hair-fine wire through the cores. I do have a Weller temp-controlled iron to avoid scorching the PCBs and I do have a 1/64" tip for it (normally, I use a 1/32" tip for general SMT rework). The only hard problem I have is how to test the memory without assembling the entire plane first (due to the interconnections between the diode matrix boards and the individual core plane PCBs). Someday, when I have better tools and *lots* of free time... -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 19 14:17:42 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <005f01be8a99$66e3ff40$0100c0a8@fuj03> I don't know why this has to be so complicated. There need to be constraints in order to ensure a level playing field, but since there are two related objectives, (1) to find out which of the two processors in the title of this message is "faster" and (2) to generate the fastest code for them for comparison. If people want to perform the exercise on other than these two processors, that's fine. It might show that the quality of the code makes more difference than the relative speed of the processor, which shouldn't surprise anyone. It wouldn't hurt, at least. It won't show what the fastest, leanest, most efficient, or any other comparative of the various ways of coding the problem would be for those two processors unless there's 1:1 mapping for the instructions, however. Having more attempts submitted will undoubtedly teach someone something and that's good. What it will also do, is show everybody more innovative approaches to solving the problem. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 18, 1999 5:20 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >> > >Sure! Let's have a driving contest to see who can drive the fastest, but >> > >first we all have to build our own cars. THAT MAKES AN AMAZING AMOUNT OF >> > >SENSE! >> > Shsssh! We're building a race track first. >> No, that's too simple. First we have to go terraform Mars so that we can >> build the race track there. We don't want to give anyone an unfair >> advantage by letting them race their cars in a familiar atmosphere. > >I'm having a little bit of difficulty with not being able to use modern >tools and materials for the metallurgy for building my engine. :-) >Will I have to build it on Mars, also? > >If you really want to see a drivers only contest, watch IROC racing (was >just on ESPN this afternoon) - a dozen identical cars, and in 40 laps, the >pack spread out to a few car lengths. The winner was a Pontiac. So was >the loser, and every other car in the race. I think that it is more fun to >watch an event where the vehicles differ. > >We really need two sections of the whole competition - one section with >fixed platforms, and one section permitting custom hardware. > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 19 14:27:55 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <006e01be8a9a$ba5b60e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> This is a valid viewpoint, though I think, ultimately, the question to be answered pivots around which processor was potentially the most efficient of all its resources, including time. However, just the raw speed got a lot of discussion. In 1983, the 4MHz 6502 was "old hat" and the 8MHz Z-80H was readily available. However, AFAIK the peripherals for the Z-80H were not, and, in fact, I didn't ever see them. Somebody said they were out there at some point, but I've never seen them offered for sale. You could, of course, postulate that a given processor could be run at a given rate, whether it's true or not, but if you want a comparison of REAL parts running REAL code in a REAL environment, then you need something more than if you just look at what various vendors sold. Every design has compromises made, and, back in the early '80's, cost of memory was a factor, as was the assembly cost. In general, I saw lots of boards for lots of different processors designed to make the most efficient use of memory. Once we have a good idea of what you're trying to measure, you can make adjustments to the system variables. If you want to compute how fast a processor runs code with a given-speed-rated memory, you've got to design the most efficient memory interface you can and then adjust the processor clock for that. If you merely want to use a rate which trivially provides a baud rate generator with a convenient harmonic of the baud rate you intend to use, you can, I suppose design for that. I made the statement that it would take, at most, a couple of days to build a system which would allow straightforward programs to be run and thereby satisfy the requirement for a test system. I didn't really intend that people build a unique system just for this test. What I figured was that folks could look around the basement and see what they could find that would meet their needs. An old Apple-II would work if you compensate for its obtuse timing. Since they all seemed to have a serial console, almost any S-100 system would work. It's pretty hard to imagine how a limitation like your suggestion would apply. Newer processors addressed weaknesses in the older ones. One of those was ease of programming. In some cases, e.g. the 6809, the processor was designed with a regular instruction set and lots of addressing modes so as to make generating code easy. It didn't necessarily make it faster. I don't know how elegant such code will ultimately turn out to be. My best guess would be that off-the-shelf systems will be what folks use to program for this "challenge" if anyone does it. There were so few tools for homebrew or single-board 6502 systems that I doubt anyone with other than an Apple or an OSI will be interested. OTOH, it will be someone running CP/M or the like on a Z-80 who enters on the Z-80 side. That was why I thought a good simulator would be the best solution. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Yakowenko To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 18, 1999 5:21 PM Subject: Re: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) >You'd normally expect that the winner of any such contest would be >the most recent processor, wouldn't you? So, if the cut-off date >was 1982, any processor that was released in late '82 should probably >beat any that was already available in 1979. Of course, if the 1979 >processor had a much faster version available in 1983 (like a higher >clock rate), that faster version wouldn't be legal with the 1982 cut- >off, because that wasn't around in 1982. > >So, I suggest that one way of judging cleverness of software hacks >is that they let an older processor beat a newer one. > >Judging that way, we don't even need a cut-off date. But anybody >coding for a 1999 processor won't have any way to win. > >Of course, then we need clear evidence when each processor became >available at each clock speed, and we can argue about when the chip >was *really* available (as opposed to being orderable, or just having >the spec available). > > Bill. > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Mon Apr 19 14:46:50 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <990419154650.20c0096a@trailing-edge.com> >This is a valid viewpoint, though I think, ultimately, the question to be >answered pivots around which processor was potentially the most efficient of >all its resources, including time. However, just the raw speed got a lot of >discussion. In 1983, the 4MHz 6502 was "old hat" and the 8MHz Z-80H was >readily available. However, AFAIK the peripherals for the Z-80H were not, >and, in fact, I didn't ever see them. Somebody said they were out there at >some point, but I've never seen them offered for sale. Of course, in the "real world", there are many other considerations to systems design other than processor speed and the "my CPU can beat up your CPU" arguments that are familiar to us from our schoolyard days (and seem to continue interminably here.) This is, for example, why the number of 8051-descended CPU's that have been shipped in the past 20 years is in the billions. (OK, very low billions, but it's there.) (1 billion == 10**9, to not confuse the folks who were educated outside the US of A.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 19 14:42:04 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <001001be8a11$679be660$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 18, 99 09:04:22 pm Message-ID: <199904191942.PAA09777@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3402 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990419/3bc44d3f/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 19 14:52:23 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <199904191835.OAA10159@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Worrying about using 32K? For a simple little Roman Numeral pro... uh... > <* light bulb goes on *> > You naughty _naughty_ programmer! That's not at all in the spirit of the > competition! > (Wish I'd thought of it.) shhhhhhhhhh! Now they'll try to plug up the look up table loophole. Y'know, if the rules don't SAY what it has to be, ... OB_OT: A few decades ago, the Fremont race track used to have a 1200cc aircooled "anything goes" class. Then they changed that to 1200cc aircooled VW "anything goes" when I was 1/3 of the way through building a car out of two Honda 600s. The Honda 600 resembles a Mini-Cooper, with 600cc 2 cylinder engine resembling a motorcycle engine, front wheel drive with a trailer axle rear end; ~36HP, but ~45 with the Hawaiian head and cam, plus ~10% more with some porting and polishing. By mounting an extra front subframe where the rear used to be, it was 1200cc, 4 cylinder (2 in each engine) >90HP, higher power:weight ratio than anything else in the class, much cheaper to build than any of the serious contenders, 4WD, 4W disk brakes, 4Wsteering (that REALLY takes some getting used to!) And street legal. almost. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Apr 19 15:03:03 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Q-Bus and Unibus to ATA info In-Reply-To: <011101be8a92$47a92bc0$5d01a8c0@p2350.ecubuero> from emanuel stiebler at "Apr 19, 1999 12:27:26 pm" Message-ID: <199904192003.QAA00830@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > Hi, > > -----Original Message----- > From: Clint Wolff > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 12:04 PM > Subject: Re: Q-Bus and Unibus to ATA info > > > >On the other hand, I have been pondering the development of a ATA > >drive controller that emulates MSCP (and possibly TMSCP). > > I'm sitting on the layout of one ;-)) > > Problem is, you pay appr 100$ license fee for MSCP, and another 100$ for > TMSCP. > > emanuel I'd pay $200 + parts for a board that would do MSCP and run my 11/23's with an IDE drive. Actually, I'd love to find a SCSI or IDE controller with DEC OS support for the QBUS. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From clintw at colorado.cirrus.com Mon Apr 19 15:15:14 1999 From: clintw at colorado.cirrus.com (Clint Wolff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Q-Bus and Unibus to ATA info Message-ID: <199904192015.OAA06869@ws2044.colorado.cirrus.com> > From pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Mon Apr 19 14:06:36 1999 > Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > Precedence: bulk > From: Bill Pechter > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Q-Bus and Unibus to ATA info > In-Reply-To: <011101be8a92$47a92bc0$5d01a8c0@p2350.ecubuero> from emanuel stiebler at "Apr 19, 1999 12:27:26 pm" > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 > X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 3.0-Stable > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > X-Lines: 33 > > > > >On the other hand, I have been pondering the development of a ATA > > >drive controller that emulates MSCP (and possibly TMSCP). > > > > I'm sitting on the layout of one ;-)) > > > > Problem is, you pay appr 100$ license fee for MSCP, and another 100$ for > > TMSCP. > > > > emanuel > > > I'd pay $200 + parts for a board that would do MSCP and run my 11/23's > with an IDE drive. > > Actually, I'd love to find a SCSI or IDE controller with DEC OS support > for the QBUS. > > > Bill Take a look at the CQD-220/TM or CQD-240/TM at www.cmd.com. I have two CQD-240/TM that I bought recently (25-Jan-99) from Ficomp (www.ficompinc.com), that I am using in my uVAX II with Ultrix 3.1. These boards emulate MSCP and TMSCP. According to the technical manuals on CMDs website, these boards work in: LSI-11/23, PDP-11/23+, Micro-PDP-11/53, 11/73, 11/83, 11/93, uVAX II, uVAX III, VAX 4000 and DECSystem 5400 systems. They support RT-11, TSX, DSM-11, ISM-11, RSX, RSTS, VMS, UNIX, ULTRIX, and other operating systems which use DU/TU drivers. I am happy enough with the ones I have, I am going to buy a Unibus one for my 750 when it arrives. clint From mbg at world.std.com Mon Apr 19 15:26:42 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <199904192026.AA03170@world.std.com> >> You naughty _naughty_ programmer! That's not at all in the spirit of >> the competition! >> (Wish I'd thought of it.) > >shhhhhhhhhh! Now they'll try to plug up the look up table loophole. > >Y'know, if the rules don't SAY what it has to be, ... The rules don't say you can't... but you do have to account for all memory used, for code and data... I've coded a version for pdp-11s, but since I have yet to test it (though of course it will work first time :-) I'm not going to post it yet... It takes up 62 words (132 bytes), uses 4 words on stack and 9 words of pure data space... when I've actually gotten a chance to try it, I'll be able to report how many instructions it takes to do the conversions (I suspect '1' is minimum and 3888 is maximum). I don't know how to check on number of cycles, though... The algorithm is pretty straightforward... converting to Roman is the same as converting to decimal except that once you have the digit for a given power-of-ten place, you convert *that*... I wrote it before looking at the code which was posted, and I suspect the algorithm is similar with the exception that I don't have a lookup table for the digits... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From elvey at hal.com Mon Apr 19 15:41:11 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <005f01be8a99$66e3ff40$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <199904192041.NAA05284@civic.hal.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > I don't know why this has to be so complicated. There need to be > constraints in order to ensure a level playing field, but since there are > two related objectives, (1) to find out which of the two processors in the > title of this message is "faster" and (2) to generate the fastest code for > them for comparison. Hi I always have to wonder about the meaning of faster. Although I like the 6502 for a lot of things and would say that it is often faster than a 8080 for many things, I also know that resources like page zero get used up quickly. Once these are gone, things tend to slow down. I think we will continue to see that, like in the past, most processors with about the same memory access speeds will do about the same amount of work ( same bit count ). On chip cache has changed that some but that just makes another category. I would say any processor was superior to another on small benchmarks unless the numbers were in the 5X magnitude or more. Large application are more useful in comparisons but it is hard to come up with enough cross platform examples to make meaningful judgments. I've always said, one should stick with what makes you happy. Dwight From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 19 15:42:23 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 19, 99 12:52:23 pm Message-ID: <199904192042.QAA11515@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 565 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990419/da952ae0/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 19 15:48:39 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <199904191942.PAA09777@armigeron.com> Message-ID: ; sleazy 8088 (for those who don't have to take it so seriously) ; Assumes that there is no penalty for memory usage ; ; entry conditions: ; AX: number to be converted ; DS: location of data segment ; contents of data segment left as an exercise for the reader ; ; exit conditions: ; AX: offset within data segment of null terminated string ; ; Does NOT currently handle input validation. ( AX > 4095 ) MOV CL, 4 SHL AX, 4 RET ;sample content of data segment: ; 2A 00 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 ; 49 00 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 ; 49 49 00 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 ; 49 49 49 00 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 ; 49 56 00 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 19 15:47:51 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <199904192026.AA03170@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Apr 19, 99 04:26:42 pm Message-ID: <199904192047.QAA11652@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1485 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990419/e4ac01a2/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 19 16:08:36 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:20 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <199904180639.CAA30085@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Problem: Convert a binary value to Roman, using ASCII characters (or > the native character set if applicable) into a string > with a termination character (if ASCII, use the NUL (0) > character). > > The valid Roman characters used are: > > I 1 > V 5 > X 10 > L 50 > C 100 > D 500 > M 1000 > > I will assume that all are familiar with how the conversion > goes 8-) The smallest value allowed is 1, and the largest > is 3,999. Any value out of this range is to be represented > as a single character consisting of an asterick (*) or some > other similar character in whatever character set (if ASCII > isn't supported) followed by the termination character. > > This means that the longest string is 10 characters long: > > `M' `M' `M' `C' `M' `X' `C' `I' `X' I must be missing something here. 9 does NOT produce the longest string < 10, 8 does. (IX v VIII), and 3999 isn't the longest string. 3888 would seem to produce: M M M D C C C L X X X V I I I \0 which is 16 characters, including null. BTW, what comes after M? Is it correct that in Roman numerals there can never be 4 consecutive occurences of the same letter? (The original Y4M "bug"!!!) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Apr 19 12:11:21 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: IBM Optical drive questions Message-ID: <01be8a87$a69bd0c0$c49ba6d1@compaq> Hello... I'm getting a couple of IBM optical drives (one internal, one external). From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 19 16:18:34 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > MOV CL, 4 > > SHL AX, 4 > > RET > Why not SHL AX,4? Because the 8088 didn't HAVE a shift immediate instruction. Check with Allison about which processor introduced it, and when it cam out. Was 286 <= 1983? OOOPs! the code should be replaced by: ;entry condition: ; AX contains number ; DS contains location of data segment ; content of data segment same as before ;exit condition: ; DS:0 points to result ;code: ADD DS, AX RET -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 14:01:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: DEC RA81 need quick answer In-Reply-To: <199904190438.OAA19102@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> from "Huw Davies" at Apr 19, 99 02:38:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 474 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990419/cad18f65/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 14:09:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Ancient disk controllers In-Reply-To: <002501be8a20$dacce440$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 18, 99 10:49:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2238 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990419/0bb76a5d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 14:15:42 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Ancient disk controllers In-Reply-To: <19990419054631.32480.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 19, 99 05:46:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 660 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990419/04c49500/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 15:31:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P In-Reply-To: <00bb01be8a7a$38d551e0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> from "Jay West" at Apr 19, 99 10:35:14 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1350 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990419/83822255/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 15:11:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <19990419115834.21563.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 19, 99 04:58:34 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2496 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990419/9bd0b5ad/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 15:39:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P In-Reply-To: <199904191551.RAA04682@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 19, 99 05:50:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1276 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990419/699e0193/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 15:17:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Using HP-UX, the book In-Reply-To: from "Athanasios Kotsenos" at Apr 19, 99 03:26:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 971 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990419/18056a47/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 15:22:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <199904191521.KAA01748@thufir.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Apr 19, 99 10:21:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 462 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990419/2ad220b3/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Apr 19 16:25:29 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: IBM Optical drive questions Message-ID: <64ba2613.244cf949@aol.com> In a message dated 19/04/99 17:16:44 Eastern Daylight Time, roblwill@usaor.net writes: << My other question is if Optical disks are re-writable? I've talked to two people, and one of them says that Optical disks aren't re-writable, mangeto-optical disks are. The other person said that no optical disk is re-writable, and that only floptical disks are (isn't that a form of optical disk?) >> the type 3431 is rewritable. the 3363 is write once- read many. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 19 16:44:29 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > ADD DS, AX Sorry, that shouldn't have gone to the list, and was WRONG! Instead: ; 12 bytes of code; no stack; 64K static data ;entry condition: ; AX contains number ; validity is tested. (0,4000-4095 have *'s, >4095 caught) ; DS contains location of data segment ; content of data segment same as before ;exit condition: ; DS:0 points to result ; AX, BX, DS, and flags get stepped on TEST AX, 0F000h JNZ BOGUS MOV BX, DS ADD AX, BX MOV DS, AX BOGUS: RET From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Apr 19 16:22:23 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Using HP-UX, the book In-Reply-To: References: <01be8893$e05fd720$7a9ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: >Does the book get into technical details like pinouts and stuff? >I live in London, UK, so how much would it cost to get here? >Let's continue this on private email. >Thanks, >Nasos. Replying in public, since its gone gone gone gone gone (yours is the 6th reply wanting it.). I will be digging a bit more into the paper goods this place has, so who knows what I may find. I have a feel now for some items people would like at least. Also, this is not the book for you, its intro user level software, not hardware. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Apr 19 16:57:43 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Repairing core (was Re: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?) Message-ID: <19990419215743.16605.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > I kicked off this whole mess with... > > > > I have a chance to buy a 4kW core stack for the PDP-8/i (-8/L). It's > > more than I want to pay, $100. Then --- Tony Duell wrote: > > Well, I've not bought core for a few years, and I payed a lot less than > that. Me, too. > But I believe core is now soemthing of a collectable (alas by > people who are not going to use it :-() Sigh. :-P > [...] > > > OTOH, I do have a broken (20-30 fractured cores) -8/L stack that I've > > contemplated repairing. It's a parity stack, so I can scavenge wire > > and cores from the parity plane (or just use the parity plane intact > > as another bit, then use one pad of broken core to repair the other, > > less damaged pad of broken core). > What I would do : > > I'd buy the core at $100, since that way you do have the working 8K for > your PDP. Then I'd try to mend the broken core plane that you already > have. If you fail, well you still have a machine with 8K in it (you'd be > kicking yourself, I think if you couldn't fix the old core and couldn't > still get a replacement). It seems the prudent thing to do, I was mostly just writhing about having to pay double of what _I_ think it's worth. I was polling for a sanity check to see if my expectations were unreasonable, or if the expectations of those stick-it-on-a-bookshelf collectors were. > If you do manage to mend it (and I think it's possible to re-string > larger-sized cores by hand) These are fairly large... much larger than on a 4kW stack for the PDP-11/20, but that's a three-wire plane. > then either make a 12K machine (if you can do that)... Not inside the -8/i (massive backplane, room for CPU, EAE, 8kW core and lots of I/O options. The -8/L expansion box _might_ take a total of 8kW) > or sell one of the core units to another collector (and if $100 is > the going rate you could probably get that for it). Or, of course, keep > it as a spare. I vote spare unless the price of core soars by one or two orders of magnitude. > > of time spent, it's cheaper for me to work a few hours and earn the money > > that the core pirate wants; in terms of lessons learned, repairing a > > 30-year-old core stack would be a big thrill, *if* it worked. > > Sure. Fixing old computers rarely makes financial sense, but then hobbies > rarely do. If I were in this for the money, I wouldn't be in it for the money. :-) > But learning how to mend core memory is an interesting thing > to learn to do IMHO (if I had a broken core unit you can bet I'd be > trying to fix it...) Do you have an opinion on how historically accurate is reasonable to attempt? By this I mean that the parity plane (all by itself on a 3/4 empty PCB) has no damaged cores. If I move the sense/inhibit wires from its slot on the paddle boards, I can borrow them intact to act as one of the damaged bits, I can then disassemble the more damaged plane (or perhaps the less damaged plane depending on where the damage is easier to get to) and only have to repair _one_ plane. In short: more like the original - disassemble the parity plane, removing it from the stack, converting a 13-bit broken stack with 4 PCBs to a 12-bit working stack, or, disassemble a broken plane, swap the data wires from it to the parity plane, keeping all four PCBs inside the stack. The second solution seems to make more sense from an effort and safety standpoint, the first solution seems to me to be more "pure". Thoughts? -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 19 16:55:17 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <19990419191919.11058.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I wish I had one of the stereo inspection microscopes that I used when I > worked on the factory floor at a Lucent plant in Columbus. It has a sliding > base and an optional pneumatic pedal to fix the jig in place. We used > it to inspect solder fillets on SMT edge connectors for circuit packs (the > AT&T name for a PCB) for phone switches. If I had one of those for a month, > I could probably get the view necessary to attempt to thread hair-fine wire > through the cores. I do have a Weller temp-controlled iron to avoid scorching > the PCBs and I do have a 1/64" tip for it (normally, I use a 1/32" tip for > general SMT rework). The only hard problem I have is how to test the memory > without assembling the entire plane first (due to the interconnections between > the diode matrix boards and the individual core plane PCBs). I have a similar device that was used for inspecting ICs. Its basically a microscope with a fine adjustment platform, and it actually has a scribe for etching on the surface, although I don't know what purpose that would serve. I assume you are thinking to replace the wire strand completely, and not attempt to solder the two broken ends together? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 19 16:57:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <005f01be8a99$66e3ff40$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I don't know why this has to be so complicated. There need to be My god! Dick just had a revelation!! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 19 16:55:01 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 19, 99 02:57:38 pm Message-ID: <199904192155.RAA13537@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 294 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990419/4b94a5d1/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 19 17:03:34 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <006e01be8a9a$ba5b60e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > My best guess would be that off-the-shelf systems will be what folks use to > program for this "challenge" if anyone does it. There were so few tools for > homebrew or single-board 6502 systems that I doubt anyone with other than an > Apple or an OSI will be interested. OTOH, it will be someone running CP/M > or the like on a Z-80 who enters on the Z-80 side. That's a highly ignorant statement. There were plenty of other 6502 based machines, including the Commodore 64, VIC-20, the various Atari 800 models. There were also many non-CP/M Z80-based singleboards to choose from. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From adavie at mad.scientist.com Mon Apr 19 17:11:14 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: FS: Russian computer Message-ID: <002901be8ab1$8b28bd60$1cf438cb@davie> I've been offered a Russian Computer - "So, the computer 'Elektronika MS-1502' is IBM-compotable, it likes IBM PC. It has a monitor, a memory volume 512 kb. It works with using a recorder, but if there is a device it can work with using a drive." This is probably too big for me, and sideline to my interests. If there's anyone on the list who would like to arrange to buy this machine from it's owner (it will be relatively cheap, I'm sure), then please contact me privately on adavie@mad.scientist.com and we can talk about your needs. You will, of course, have to arrange shipping out of Russia. I can handle payment for you. I have no financial or other interests in this machine, other than trying to find a buyer as a favour for this Russian gent who supplies me with calculators. Cheers A From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 19 17:27:29 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Repairing core (was Re: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?) In-Reply-To: <19990419215743.16605.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I'd buy the core at $100, since that way you do have the working 8K for > > your PDP. Then I'd try to mend the broken core plane that you already > > have. If you fail, well you still have a machine with 8K in it (you'd be > > kicking yourself, I think if you couldn't fix the old core and couldn't > > still get a replacement). > > It seems the prudent thing to do, I was mostly just writhing about having > to pay double of what _I_ think it's worth. I was polling for a sanity > check to see if my expectations were unreasonable, or if the expectations > of those stick-it-on-a-bookshelf collectors were. I don't see what the big attraction to a core plane is. You stick it on your wall. Whoopee! Look at me, I have a core plane on my wall. Big fricken deal. Nobody even knows what it is anyway. From afar it looks like a black square. Closer up it looks like a piece of a window screen. Unfortunately, my rant is not going to stop the lame-o's selling it from hyping it up as some cool collectable, and it's not going to stop the techno-wannabees from buying it to stick on their wall. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From KFergason at aol.com Mon Apr 19 17:27:33 1999 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <575b87a2.244d07d5@aol.com> In a message dated 4/19/99 4:12:54 PM Central Daylight Time, cisin@xenosoft.com writes: > I must be missing something here. 9 does NOT produce the longest string > < 10, 8 does. (IX v VIII), and 3999 isn't the longest string. > > 3888 would seem to produce: > M M M D C C C L X X X V I I I \0 > which is 16 characters, including null. > > BTW, what comes after M? Is it correct that in Roman numerals there can > never be 4 consecutive occurences of the same letter? (The original Y4M > "bug"!!!) > No. Apparently the modern usage of Roman numerals is different than the Roman usage. Romans were known to do VIIII to mean 9, and were not really consistent in their usage. Interesting article in the Houston Chronicle discussing this a couple of months ago. 1999 can be made at least 3 ways, so a decision had to be made on which way should be used. (Hollywood movies, etc) Kelly From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Apr 19 17:37:40 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: FS: Russian computer In-Reply-To: <002901be8ab1$8b28bd60$1cf438cb@davie> Message-ID: <4.1.19990419153615.00c35e70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Andrew (and anyone else on the list), Just be careful it isn't one of the "well known" Russian computer frauds. Figure out some way to vet this guys credential before any cash changes hands. --Chuck At 08:11 AM 4/20/99 +1000, you wrote: >I've been offered a Russian Computer - From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Mon Apr 19 17:36:51 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Repairing core (was Re: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?) Message-ID: <990419183651.20c0075a@trailing-edge.com> >Unfortunately, my rant is not going to stop the lame-o's selling it from >hyping it up as some cool collectable, and it's not going to stop the >techno-wannabees from buying it to stick on their wall. Just wanting to point out that "display core" isn't a completely new phenomenon: Historically (going back at least 15 years), folks leaving the labs where I've worked - either retiring or moving on to other jobs - have been presented with core planes from machines that they worked with as "going away presents", frequently framed and behind glass. Ah, the memories! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Apr 19 17:52:37 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Repairing core (was Re: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?) In-Reply-To: References: <19990419215743.16605.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990419154856.00ba9cb0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 03:27 PM 4/19/99 -0700, Sellam wrote: >Unfortunately, my rant is not going to stop the lame-o's selling it from >hyping it up as some cool collectable, and it's not going to stop the >techno-wannabees from buying it to stick on their wall. Recent experience, Them: "We have a PDP 8/F." Me: "Does it have any memory." Them: "We think so, there are six boards in the back." Me: (could be good, two core stacks..) "What are the numbers on the top?" Them: "Three are labelled G104 and the other three are labelled G227." Me: "No, you don't have any memory for this machine." --Chuck [For the record a 4K core stack in an 8 consists of a G104, G227, and H220 card. It was the H220 card that had the actual core "mats" on it. The H220 card is often "liberated" from PDP-8's as a trophy/display item.] From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Apr 19 17:53:38 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <19990419225338.21634.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I wish I had one of the stereo inspection microscopes... > > I have a similar device that was used for inspecting ICs. Its basically a > microscope with a fine adjustment platform... That's it. The one I'm thinking about has optional air bearings that can be clamped down with a foot pedal. You clamp the board into the frame, drag it around like a microfische, then lock it into place with the pedal. The field of view is adjustable, and can zoom in to entirely encompass a 1/4 W resistor or out to encompass several SMT ICs. > I assume you are thinking to replace the wire strand completely, and not > attempt to solder the two broken ends together? I need to get some pictures of this... Imagine a core plane... ||||||||||||||| --///////////////-- --///////////////-- --//XXX//////////-- --///XXX/////////-- --///XXX/////////-- --////XX/////////-- --///////////////-- --///////////////-- With the X's representing physically broken and/or absent cores. On my particular board, each bit of 4096 cores is a square approx 2" on a side (about 1/32" per core site), with the damage to two bits on the same edge of the PCB. I was originally planning on lifting the X and Y wires from one corner of the bit to be repaired, unthreading the cores only where necessary, and making any splices to the sense/inhibit wires at the edge of the core (as I belive there already are). If I scavenge wire and cores from the parity plane, I have more than enough raw material. If I attempt to sacrifice one bad bit for the other, I don't have the surplus wire (the X and Y wires must be preserved from edge to edge of the core PCB) I have just thought of another, more devious method, but on second thought, it would have to be clever indeed... Change the diode board such that the damaged bits are not both accessed at the same time (i.e. X32, Y16 on plane D4 is broken, but X32, Y16 on plane D3 is _not_ broken) and convert the two broken bits into two fields of 2048 cores each (and use the parity bit intact). It turns a 13-bit memory into a memory of 11 intact planes and two half-planes. I'll have to study the geometry to see if this is possible. Alternately, if the individual columns are intact, I could do sort of a "one from column A, two from column B" approach. As long as the sense amps don't balk at the extra resistance of doubling the length of of the sense wire, it could work. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 19 17:59:47 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Repairing core (was Re: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?) Message-ID: <199904192259.AA21040@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I have a similar device that was used for inspecting ICs. Its basically a > > microscope with a fine adjustment platform... > > That's it. The one I'm thinking about has optional air bearings that > can be clamped down with a foot pedal. You clamp the board into the > frame, drag it around like a microfische, then lock it into place with > the pedal. The field of view is adjustable, and can zoom in to entirely > encompass a 1/4 W resistor or out to encompass several SMT ICs. Mine is not that complicated. It has about the same footprint as an Atari 2600 and would sit on a desk. There's no foot pedal or anything. And its mono, not stereo. But you can zoom in and out and make very fine adjustments in the field of view (like in the microinches or whatnot). If I was so inclined (and like you had the time) I'd say go ahead and ship me the plane and I'll take a stab at repairing it. However, I don't think I'd feel entirely comfortable shipping this machine out to you to borrow (not that I don't trust you, I just wouldn't want it to get damaged), but if you want to talk about that possibilty then e-mail me privately. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From at258 at osfn.org Mon Apr 19 18:07:25 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just looked at a reference which mentioned an inscription in the Forum on the columna rostrata commemorating the victory of the Carthaginians in 260 BC which had 23 (I)'s inscribed, where I=1,000. On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > Problem: Convert a binary value to Roman, using ASCII characters (or > > the native character set if applicable) into a string > > with a termination character (if ASCII, use the NUL (0) > > character). > > > > The valid Roman characters used are: > > > > I 1 > > V 5 > > X 10 > > L 50 > > C 100 > > D 500 > > M 1000 > > > > I will assume that all are familiar with how the conversion > > goes 8-) The smallest value allowed is 1, and the largest > > is 3,999. Any value out of this range is to be represented > > as a single character consisting of an asterick (*) or some > > other similar character in whatever character set (if ASCII > > isn't supported) followed by the termination character. > > > > This means that the longest string is 10 characters long: > > > > `M' `M' `M' `C' `M' `X' `C' `I' `X' > > I must be missing something here. 9 does NOT produce the longest string > < 10, 8 does. (IX v VIII), and 3999 isn't the longest string. > > 3888 would seem to produce: > M M M D C C C L X X X V I I I \0 > which is 16 characters, including null. > > BTW, what comes after M? Is it correct that in Roman numerals there can > never be 4 consecutive occurences of the same letter? (The original Y4M > "bug"!!!) > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From a2k at one.net Mon Apr 19 18:10:19 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P In-Reply-To: <199904191551.RAA04682@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: > All you need is a transformer 240V<->120V - these are easy to get, > maybe look in shops where they sell electronics for tourists, or > South American 'visitors' ... > Here's how I'm avoiding this problem for my collection: I'm moving into a new house and getting 220 installed where my stuff it going to be located.. since it's right where the breaker panel is, it's not going to cost much at all... so if the computer in question is going to be located in a basement or wherever the breaker panel is, you don't even need a transformer... just get an electrician, friend, or do it yourself.. Kevin From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 19 18:20:55 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <002301be8abb$46ee6aa0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 1:56 PM Subject: Re: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) >>This is a valid viewpoint, though I think, ultimately, the question to be >>answered pivots around which processor was potentially the most efficient of >>all its resources, including time. However, just the raw speed got a lot of >>discussion. In 1983, the 4MHz 6502 was "old hat" and the 8MHz Z-80H was >>readily available. However, AFAIK the peripherals for the Z-80H were not, >>and, in fact, I didn't ever see them. Somebody said they were out there at >>some point, but I've never seen them offered for sale. > >Of course, in the "real world", there are many other considerations >to systems design other than processor speed and the "my CPU can beat >up your CPU" arguments that are familiar to us from our schoolyard days >(and seem to continue interminably here.) > >This is, for example, why the number of 8051-descended CPU's that have >been shipped in the past 20 years is in the billions. (OK, very low >billions, but it's there.) (1 billion == 10**9, to not confuse the >folks who were educated outside the US of A.) > Yes, that's very true. The MC6809, for example, was touted as offering greater ease of programming, hence, less effort, hence better fit into applications with lower volume, among other interests. The 8051 is a completely different class of device, though. Its core is unquestionably the most widely used microcontroller core out there. There are those who claim that the PIC (Microchip) is going to take that market over are probably whistling into the wind, as although INTEL's share of that market has declined, the overall numbers from the dozen or so makers of 8051-core microcontrollers still dominate the market. The range of applications for which it is suitable is MUCH more comprehensive than that of nearly any other microcontroller, largely because there are so many variants with features otherwise needing to be added on and thereby increasing cost and circuit complexity. There are also some performance issues. There are some really quite fast versions of this guy. It has architectural features which reach back to its antecedent, the MCS48 family, yet its architecture supports operations with a fairly standard register set, and a fairly standard though minimal set of registers. It has several of these, as do some other micros, but one doesn't have to use the multiple register sets if it's not wanted. The 8051 is a single-chip microcontroller, though. It isn't really intended as the core processor of a more general purpose system though it's quite capable. The 6502 and Z-80 were intended as highly flexible processing units with external resources. Back when I was using the 6502 and Z-80, I used an 8748 or a 68701 or '705 when I needed a self-contained microcontroller. Dick >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 19 18:28:23 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <199904192328.AA12013@world.std.com> Your points are valid. I didn't intend building a new computer to be seen as a major construction project. It can be done with a processor, an oscillator can, a PAL, two memory IC's, and a UART, e.g. 16C450. As I said, it should take very little time, and the circuit could be built with both processors in the same circuit, perhaps with only one inserted at a time. It's not necessary, but it's the cleanest way to do the job if you want to participate yet haven't got a running system with one or both of these processors. By the way, if I were picking a processor for almost any job, these would be pretty far down the list, not because they're bad, but because others are so much more convenient. One other thing I'd say, though, is that it's perhaps a bit questionable publishing code as yet because it will pollute the idea pool (no reflection on the quality of the submitted code) in that those who read it over (which I haven't for that reason) will potentially have their own approach influenced by seeing someone else's. There ought to be a bit of time allowed to pass while folks contemplate the cosmic oneness and decide what they'll do. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 1:58 PM Subject: Re: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) >It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: >> >> Well, I recall that someone said, a while back, that the devil's in the >> details. > > I'll say 8-) > >> What I'm trying to do is place boundaries around this problem for >> purposes of understanding its limits. Others who attempt to replicate your >> work on other processors will want to know these things. From your >> statement that the process produces a result of '*' for an invalid input, >> which, apparently would include negative values, non-integers, and integers >> of value 4000 or greater. If the input is presumed to be unsigned integer, >> that solves much of the problem. Now, you want to store the output in >> memory, presumably as ascii characters, presumably as a null-terminated >> string, and perhaps (optionally) echo it to the screen in the aftermath of >> your run. Does that sound like a reasonable thing to do? > > Yes. The actual code being timed is the conversion only, not the output >part, which is why the conversion is being stored in memory. > >> How do we tell this program what string of numbers to convert? Is this >> someting you want to put into memory as a null-terminated string of binary >> values, or would you prefer a single word for each value, with a null >> terminating the input array or a fixed string length? > > Well, if it's extended to read in a Roman number and covert it to binary, >then yes, you read from a NUL terminated string. That way, you can test >both sides of the program. But that's IF it's extended. I've yet to see >anyone else offer any code for the presented problem. > >> > I liked Sam's suggestion of ``printing to memory'' as a way to avoid the >> >complications of I/O in this, and if I didn't make this clear that the >> >conversion was to be stored in memory, I'm sorry. >> >> That should work. In fact, input could be done that was as well, placing >> the input in memory and then executing the program from a debugger or with a >> call from a HLL. > > Which is why I specified that the conversion program be callable as a >subroutine---to isolate the program from the specifics of the operating >system/monitor used to test it. > >> > I'm a software guy---building computers isn't exactly my forte. Besides, >> >if I say my code only requires 200 bytes of memory, and I can't figure out >> >how to build a computer with 200 bytes of memory (pretty easy for me 8-) >> >then that means I have 56 additional bytes to play with, maybe by adding >> >code to run blinkenlights or something. >> > >> > Besides, who wants to build a computer for this? Okay, except for Tony? >> >> That's the ultimate test, though, isn't it? > > If (and it's a big if) I build a computer, it's going to be based on a 32 >bit chip minimum (like the 68k or ARM). And it's not going to be for this >contest either 8-) > >> >> How is the 6809E relevant to the timing of the Z-80 and 6502? >> > >> > Nothing at all, except as an outside reference. That, and I don't really >> >know Z80 or 6502 code (nor do I have development systems for these chips). >> > >> Its certainly an outside reference. It may be a challenge for everyone to >> improve on it. . . We'll see, I guess > > I'm sure a cycle or two can be shaved off here and there, but I haven't >gone back over it myself. Heck, I've yet to see anyone comment on the code >itself. > > -spc (Or are we having more fun discussing the problem than working on > it?) > From mbg at world.std.com Mon Apr 19 18:30:09 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <199904192330.AA13552@world.std.com> >I must be missing something here. 9 does NOT produce the longest string >< 10, 8 does. (IX v VIII), and 3999 isn't the longest string. > >3888 would seem to produce: > M M M D C C C L X X X V I I I \0 >which is 16 characters, including null. Which was the reason I said 3888 would probably take the longest conversion time with my code... >BTW, what comes after M? Is it correct that in Roman numerals there can >never be 4 consecutive occurences of the same letter? (The original Y4M >"bug"!!!) Actually, I checked this in an old encyclopedia I had... both forms IX and VIIII could be and were used... As for what comes beyond it, a bar over the letters (called a 'vinculum') meant 'x 1000'. So MMM and III (meaning a bar over all three letters) were both acceptable as indicating 3000. Two bars indicated 'x 1000 x 1000'. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 19 18:31:54 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <002d01be8abc$cf4bf920$0100c0a8@fuj03> You bet! If there's a way for "them" to prevent you from beating them by being smart, they'll use it. I've been ground-ruled out a time or two when it looked like I might sweep 'em. Not in the coding arena, though. . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 2:02 PM Subject: Re: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) >On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: >> Worrying about using 32K? For a simple little Roman Numeral pro... uh... >> <* light bulb goes on *> >> You naughty _naughty_ programmer! That's not at all in the spirit of the >> competition! >> (Wish I'd thought of it.) > >shhhhhhhhhh! Now they'll try to plug up the look up table loophole. > > >Y'know, if the rules don't SAY what it has to be, ... > > >OB_OT: A few decades ago, the Fremont race track used to have a 1200cc >aircooled "anything goes" class. Then they changed that to 1200cc >aircooled VW "anything goes" when I was 1/3 of the way through building a >car out of two Honda 600s. The Honda 600 resembles a Mini-Cooper, with >600cc 2 cylinder engine resembling a motorcycle engine, front wheel drive >with a trailer axle rear end; ~36HP, but ~45 with the Hawaiian head and >cam, plus ~10% more with some porting and polishing. By mounting an extra >front subframe where the rear used to be, it was 1200cc, 4 cylinder (2 in >each engine) >90HP, higher power:weight ratio than anything else in the >class, much cheaper to build than any of the serious contenders, 4WD, 4W >disk brakes, 4Wsteering (that REALLY takes some getting used to!) And >street legal. almost. > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Apr 19 18:32:09 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: DEC RA81 need quick answer In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 19, 1999 8: 1:20 pm" Message-ID: <199904192332.TAA01537@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > [Locking heads on an RA81, etc] > > > The only thing that I can think of is that if the disk is spinning the > > heads will have moved from the landing zone and the physical act of moving > > the lock lever to the lock position will move the heads which could them to > > crash. > > Moving the heads with the disk spinning is conventionally called a > 'seek', and doesn't normally cause a headcrash. Moving the heads with the > disk stationary is much more likely to do damage. > > -tony Yeah, but moving them with the head lock while the positioner trys to keep 'em on track may not be a great idea. They might even jiggle and bounce a bit. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 19 18:35:36 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <003201be8abd$53c19480$0100c0a8@fuj03> I reached a similar conclusion as well, regarding the approach, though I've specifically avoided "peeking" at the submitted code. I've yet to write a line of code, as I'm looking at writing a simulator which will "run" the code and keep track of resources used at the same time. This requires changing existing code, and, at least in my case, changing working code means more or less the same thing as starting over, since I've not looked at the good code for a long time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 2:38 PM Subject: Re: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) > >>> You naughty _naughty_ programmer! That's not at all in the spirit of >>> the competition! >>> (Wish I'd thought of it.) >> >>shhhhhhhhhh! Now they'll try to plug up the look up table loophole. >> >>Y'know, if the rules don't SAY what it has to be, ... > >The rules don't say you can't... but you do have to account for all >memory used, for code and data... > >I've coded a version for pdp-11s, but since I have yet to test it >(though of course it will work first time :-) I'm not going to >post it yet... > >It takes up 62 words (132 bytes), uses 4 words on stack and 9 words >of pure data space... when I've actually gotten a chance to try it, >I'll be able to report how many instructions it takes to do the >conversions (I suspect '1' is minimum and 3888 is maximum). I don't >know how to check on number of cycles, though... > >The algorithm is pretty straightforward... converting to Roman is >the same as converting to decimal except that once you have the digit >for a given power-of-ten place, you convert *that*... > >I wrote it before looking at the code which was posted, and I suspect >the algorithm is similar with the exception that I don't have a lookup >table for the digits... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 19 18:42:06 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <003701be8abe$3c4c3840$0100c0a8@fuj03> While what you say is certainly true, the page-zero usage is not dynamic, so, unless your task is very large and complex, page zero usage is therefore under the coder's control. I agree with your observation that the rate of memory usage is a good indicator of the rate at which a processor gets work done. The 6502 shines in that respect, in that the internal operations are generally overalpped with the fetch of the next instruction, with a few notable exceptions. Generally speaking, I've chosen processors with foreknowledge of what the device's most frequent tasks would be. For example, I picked a 65C02 for an application for which my boss had expressed a profound preference for the Z-80. I had to prove to him that, for OUR task, the 65C02 had a couple of features we could use very effectively and which the Z-80 didn't offer. It's always case specific. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 2:55 PM Subject: Re[2]: z80 timing... 6502 timing >"Richard Erlacher" wrote: >> I don't know why this has to be so complicated. There need to be >> constraints in order to ensure a level playing field, but since there are >> two related objectives, (1) to find out which of the two processors in the >> title of this message is "faster" and (2) to generate the fastest code for >> them for comparison. > >Hi > I always have to wonder about the meaning of faster. >Although I like the 6502 for a lot of things and would >say that it is often faster than a 8080 for many things, >I also know that resources like page zero get used up >quickly. Once these are gone, things tend to slow down. > I think we will continue to see that, like in the past, >most processors with about the same memory access speeds >will do about the same amount of work ( same bit count ). >On chip cache has changed that some but that just makes >another category. I would say any processor was superior >to another on small benchmarks unless the numbers were >in the 5X magnitude or more. Large application are more >useful in comparisons but it is hard to come up with >enough cross platform examples to make meaningful judgments. > I've always said, one should stick with what makes you happy. >Dwight > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 19 19:03:57 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Ancient disk controllers Message-ID: <004a01be8ac1$49b9ff00$0100c0a8@fuj03> I think I said some of the part numbers were badly managed in this set of products. It's quite confusing when you're ordering. I definitely ordered the board with the 1010 chip on it, knowing that it would physically fit my application, only to have the 1000-05 with the 8x300 and 1100 chipset arrive. These chips, (the 1100's) were really just msi parts easy to turn out while they tested the functions separately. The project was so far behind that they had to do something to recover costs. The 2010 chip wasn't available for quite some time. It was the version with the ECC capability built in. The 1010 was the one used in the PC, though, since it was available. By the time the 2010 became available, the RLL scheme used in the 5010 and other LSI's (from other vendors) became popular, and the ECC capability was ultimately not exploited via the 2010 in a PC application. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 3:33 PM Subject: Re: Ancient disk controllers >> The functional differences were that the -05 versions were physically >> smaller (5.75 x 8 inches) and didn't support the 8-inch drives. Someone >> else pointed out that the WD1000-05 uses the WD1010 integrated controller >> rather than the 8X300 and the WD1100 chip set. Since the main difference >> between the WD1000 and WD1001 is that the latter supports ECC, I would guess >> that the WD1001-5 must use a WD2010 controller. > >The WD1001-05 uses the older chipset (or at least mine does). It uses the >WD1100-06 ECC/CRC logic chip rather than (I guess) the WD1100-04 CRC chip. > >The WD1001-05 is based on the 8x300 + control ROMs, and not a WD1010. > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 19 19:05:51 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <005501be8ac1$8db01140$0100c0a8@fuj03> It's called an epiphany, Sam. You know . . . a moment of clarity . . . goodness knows one seldom gets to enjoy such an event. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 4:09 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> I don't know why this has to be so complicated. There need to be > >My god! Dick just had a revelation!! > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 19 19:06:48 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <005a01be8ac1$afe69cc0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Yes . . . of course, I wasn't the one who thought a graphic display would be "nice" so one could see what was going on. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 4:10 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >It was thus said that the Great Sellam Ismail once stated: >> >> On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >> > I don't know why this has to be so complicated. There need to be >> >> My god! Dick just had a revelation!! > > Now now ... > > -spc (No need to overly sarcastic here ... 8-) > From danburrows at mindspring.com Mon Apr 19 18:58:24 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P Message-ID: <02e601be8ac1$1fe62410$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Be carefull doing this. All foreign 240 mains that I have worked with have been 240 between hot and neutral. This works out to be 416 phase to phase on 3 phase systems. What you will be doing is 240 between 2 hots. This can and will cause problems with a lot of supplies that expect the neutral to be at / near ground. I have several isolation transformers that I use for all the UK equipment I service and they all are wired for 240 Hot to neutral output. Also be careful what electrician you get to set it up for you. I have seen plenty of them manage to wire them wrong. I have even had to explain to them how to wire a buck / boost transformer only to have them fuse it for isolation ratings. >Here's how I'm avoiding this problem for my collection: I'm moving into a >new house and getting 220 installed where my stuff it going to be >located.. since it's right where the breaker panel is, it's not going to >cost much at all... so if the computer in question is going to be located >in a basement or wherever the breaker panel is, you don't even need a >transformer... just get an electrician, friend, or do it yourself.. > >Kevin > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 19:07:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Repairing core (was Re: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?) In-Reply-To: <19990419215743.16605.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 19, 99 02:57:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2004 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/96ba0fbc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 19:12:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 19, 99 03:03:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1178 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/597f98a7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 19:14:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Repairing core (was Re: How scarce (valuable) is core for the In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 19, 99 03:27:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 520 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/719e74d0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 19:18:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: Repairing core (was Re: How scarce (valuable) is core for In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990419154856.00ba9cb0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 19, 99 03:52:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 960 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/a81f8385/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 19 19:37:10 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: core stacks In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990419094457.00c88280@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:47:24 -0700) References: <4.1.19990419094457.00c88280@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <19990420003710.4845.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jay wrote: > ISTR that if you had a core set for an 8 that was "mismatched", the hardware > handbook had the procedure for using a scope to "tune" a set into the > appropriate range. Chuck wrote: > Not exactly, this does allow you to "fine tune" a set that already is close > enough, but it doesn't necessarily get you close enough if you weren't > there already. There is a graph in of the hysterisis(sp?) region in the 8/a > book and tuning consists of making sure that the write current and inhibit > current cancel, and that write current from both the x and y drivers will > just flip the bit but not risk flipping other bits. So you're saying that whenever Field Circus had to replace one of the boards of a set, they replaced all of them, because there wasn't enough adjustment range to calibrate them? That doesn't match my recollection; I think it was commonplace for the H220 to get replaced by itself if it got damaged, and I think I recall seeing them replace at least one failed G104. The biggest problem is that the diagnostics can't stress the memory system as much as data-break peripherals can. Tuning the adjustments for reliable operation is more difficult than the maintenance manual might lead one to believe. From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Apr 19 16:18:26 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:21 2005 Subject: IBM Optical drive questions Message-ID: <01be8aaa$2afdc4a0$e68ea6d1@compaq> Does the 3431 need a special type of disks, or do they all use the same type of disks? -Jason -----Original Message----- From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 9:29 PM Subject: Re: IBM Optical drive questions >the type 3431 is rewritable. >the 3363 is write once- read many. > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 19 20:19:46 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <000601be8acb$e0e5bfe0$0100c0a8@fuj03> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 6:44 PM Subject: Re: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) >> >> On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >> > My best guess would be that off-the-shelf systems will be what folks use to >> > program for this "challenge" if anyone does it. There were so few tools for >> > homebrew or single-board 6502 systems that I doubt anyone with other than an >> > Apple or an OSI will be interested. OTOH, it will be someone running CP/M >> > or the like on a Z-80 who enters on the Z-80 side. >> >> That's a highly ignorant statement. There were plenty of other 6502 based >> machines, including the Commodore 64, VIC-20, the various Atari 800 >> models. It's an ignorant statement, perhaps, as my kids had all these "video toys" at one time or another, but not made from total ignorance. I intentionally have ingnored them because they had integrated video, which makes it less than trivial to assess whether you're getting all the available bandwidth and also makes it unlikely you'll find a compatible Z-80. Remember, it was the goal at the outset to make a comparison of the two processors unencumbered by "special purpose" features. >Don't forget the BBC micro either. IMHO it was one of the best 6502 >systems ever (although it lacked internal expansion slots, which was a >pity). The BASIC was the second-best I have ever used (beaten only by >BASIC-09), and it has a built-in 6502 assembler. > >Now there's a thought. There was an option for the BBC micro that was a >Z80 second processor (it's not that rare either), clocked at 4MHz (IIRC). >The BBC's 6502 clocks at 2MHz most of the time, slowed down to 1MHz for >some I/O. Now you can compare the Z80 and 6502's speeds in the same >machine, simultaneously. This might be an excellent system on which to make a real comparison. It might even be one on which to run that matrix multiplication problem I proposed last week. I thought that would be good because it would require the machines to keep running for a week or two. It also would really show the difference in terms of time since it's such a big job. Of course mass storage would be a requirement for that. Commodore also made a dual processor machine, didn't they? A Commodore-128, I seem to recall . . . The power supply from the thing now powers a nicad charger . . . Dick >-tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 19:44:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P In-Reply-To: from "LordTyran" at Apr 19, 99 07:10:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1111 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/64d95dc3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 19:55:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P In-Reply-To: <02e601be8ac1$1fe62410$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Apr 19, 99 07:58:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1855 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/a8c17a66/attachment.ksh From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Apr 19 20:31:49 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Repairing core (was Re: How scarce (valuable) is core for In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 20, 1999 01:18:32 am" Message-ID: <199904200131.BAA01857@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > [For the record a 4K core stack in an 8 consists of a G104, G227, and H220 > > card. It was the H220 card that had the actual core "mats" on it. The H220 > > card is often "liberated" from PDP-8's as a trophy/display item.] > > YEs, but... The H220 (or the 8K core plane that I've forgotten the name > of) has 8 connectors on it (4 into the bus, 4 to top connectors to the XY > and sense/inhibit boards). When in place it's fairly well hidden by those > top connector blocks as well. So it's possible the core planes _were_ > still in the machine, but they hadn't spotted them. Unlikely, I guess. > My 8K set is H212, G104, G233 My 4K set is H220, G227, G111 Its possible the previous owner mixed up the boards though. -Lawrence (Whistling "If I only had a PDP-8/e" from the Wizard of OS8) LeMay From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Apr 19 21:03:15 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: DEC RA81 need quick answer In-Reply-To: References: <199904190438.OAA19102@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <199904200203.MAA27156@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 20:01 19/04/99 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >[Locking heads on an RA81, etc] > >> The only thing that I can think of is that if the disk is spinning the >> heads will have moved from the landing zone and the physical act of moving >> the lock lever to the lock position will move the heads which could them to >> crash. > >Moving the heads with the disk spinning is conventionally called a >'seek', and doesn't normally cause a headcrash. Moving the heads with the >disk stationary is much more likely to do damage. Yes but in a normal seek the head is moved electomechanically. I think the head lock mechanism for the RA81 is totally mechanical and there is no guarantee that it will be as "smooth" as a normal seek. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Apr 19 20:56:08 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P References: <02e601be8ac1$1fe62410$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: <004101be8ad0$f6b5e8e0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel T. Burrows To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Tuesday, 20 April 1999 9:28 Subject: Re: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P > Be carefull doing this. All foreign 240 mains that I have worked with have > been 240 between hot and neutral. Ours certainly are. > This works out to be 416 phase to phase on 3 phase systems. About right, the standard says 415v but that's close enough. I doubt you'd feel the difference :^) > What you will be doing is 240 between 2 hots. This > can and will cause problems with a lot of supplies that expect the neutral > to be at / near ground. This is perilous at best. I'd be tempted to find a better way.. >I have several isolation transformers that I use > for all the UK equipment I service and they all are wired for 240 Hot to > neutral output. Same here. Cheers Geoff Roberts. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Apr 19 21:24:03 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Repairing core (was Re: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?) Message-ID: <19990420022403.25680.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > I think I'd try to move the 'core mat' (cores + wires) from the parity > plane to the data plane and then repair the defective one. Not feasible. The X-Y wires run from one side of the PCB to the other and intersect two bits at a time, 64 cores each. It's not like a PDP-11 board (the only other one that I can look at right now). > Yes, it's a lot easier just to swap sense wires round, but that seems like > a kludge to me. I suppose I can start with disassembling the mat that seems easiest to get to, then decide on what to do with the parity bit from there. > I guess it comes down to : Do you need to _use_ this machine (when > swapping the sense wires round makes a lot of sense) or are you tryign to > restore it (when you make as few mods as possible). I have more than one PDP-8/L. I could always borrow a known good core stack from an -8/L and stuff that in the -8/i. It's not as if our hobby depends on the provenance of spares as a "genuine" antique would. It's virtually impossible to guarantee that any particular part was *never* replaced over the lifetime of the machine. In order, I would like it to A) work, B) be aesthetic. A+B is optimal. A alone is acceptable. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Apr 19 21:31:21 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <19990420023121.27717.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Allison J Parent wrote: > > Not likely but ther eis anotehr totally different problem, asymetric noise > pickup masking the cores switching. I hadn't thought of that. Good point. Another problem is that "worst case" diagnostics won't necessarily be worst case anymore. > You're further ahead fixing the mat. Sigh. It looks like *quite* the challenge. > The wire used should present little trouble as fine wire can still be had. Any idea how to estimate the gauge? I know I'd need red and green enameled, perhaps another color like yellow? I also wonder what they used to insulate the splices? It appears to be some kind of paint. > As an aside to this with the lamers trophying the mats. Most often the > mats are intact so someday they could again be spares. True. > The best one I've ever seen was not real but instead used small nuts and > three colors of wire to make a real looking mat of some 64 or 128 bits. What size nuts? > I'd bet that with the right currents and timing you could even store data > in it. Oy! The core circuit that I copied for my 12th-grade drafting project used 7.5VDC as the half-voltage. How much oomph would it take to induce a stable magnetic pattern in a steel nut?!? I would think that enameled insulation would cook right off the wire. Anyone with a EE degree and a copy of Spice care to take a stab at it? -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 19 21:38:36 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P Message-ID: <199904200238.AA28178@world.std.com> In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" You are right, not only _could_ I argue that the FPGA version is not microcoded; I strongly assert that it is not. (Unless you meant to have the FPGA be functionally equivalent to the ROM. But I *think* you meant it to subsume other parts of the processor to try to muddy the water. Because if the FPGA is just a ROM substitute, then it is an obvious control store for the microcode.) No microcode --> not microcoded. It's just a question of implementation really, not a fundamental design characteristic. Now, if you make writable microcode, you've exposed the innards to the programmer, and it becomes a part of the functional description of the thing. But if you don't do that, the programmer can't tell the difference; a microcoded and non-microcoded machine could behave identically. I'm sure we could carry this to the point that there is a grey area, but I don't think we're there yet. It's the philosophical problem of the beard, right? You trim a little off, and it is still a beard. But if you keep doing that, eventually you get to a point where you are quite sure there is no beard. Somewhere in between, was there one atom that you cut off that made it from a beard into a non-beard? What if you didn't really cut that atom off, but just stretched its molecular bonds to the limit...? Of course, it seems to me that so far you've been considering a case of five o'clock shadow, and wondering it if might be a beard. :-) I guess, if it has some kind of counter selecting bit-patterns that control the flow of data in the CPU, I could call it microcoded. If there is no cohesive place from which such bit patterns are retrieved, then it is not. (Now, I'm sure you'll make me eat those words. :-) ) It just struck me that the microcode in a CPU is very much like the rules of an expert system. The whole point in an expert system is to isolate the knowledge from the program, so you can tinker with the former and not get involved in the later. Microcoding lets you abstract away the complications of the control logic, reducing it to "these bits at that time-step" thinking, without getting bogged down in gate propagation delays or chip counts. Lets us programmers get a little closer to the hardware, without the obvious dangers of letting us too near the soldering irons. :-O Ah. There's the grey area. Take all the logic around your state FF's and registers. Call it a microcode ROM. Of course, the fact that it is spattered all over your CPU board weakens the argument that it is a unit in any way, but then maybe you could rearrange the board to put all that gorp on the left side... So now I have a fuzzy definition: a CPU is microcoded to the degree to which the control logic is encapsulated in the form of a control store. Most real world cases are probably close to 100% or 0%, but I have no doubt we could construct any degree of set membership that we like. I might be willing to stop prattling on about this now. Maybe. :-) Bill. On 17 Apr 1999, the Insanely Great ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: ] > Do you mean to say that _all_ computers are microcoded? After all, ] > the control logic can always be modelled by some number of state FFs ] > and a large-enough ROM, couldn't it? Or is your claim that there is ] > no such thing as microcoding? That strikes me as far-fetched as well. ] ] This is the problem. Obviously both of those statements are false based ] on our usual use of the term 'microcoding'. But it's hard to see just ] where to draw the dividing line. ] ] > The difference is that a ROM is easily replaceable; slap in another ROM ] > or EPROM with different microcode burned in, and you've got an entirely ] ] OK, here's a counterexample. ] ] Consider the PERQ. It's microcoded. It's obviously microcoded - there's a ] 16K*48bit _RAM_ that stores the microcode. And there are supplied tools ] to rewrite that microcode. ] ] Now suppose I get a large enough FPGA (I don't think any of the ones ] currently available are large enough, but). I stick it on a board. And I ] provide a tool that does the following : ] ] It takes PERQ microprogram, and combines it with a description of the ] rest of the CPU logic. It then optimises the result, and programs the ] FPGA accordingly. ] ] The result is a processor that runs exactly the same programs as a PERQ ] with that microcode. But you could reasonably argue that the FPGA version ] is not microcoded - you would look in vain for anything resembling a ] control store in the FPGA. ] ] Perhaps the term 'microcoded' should be applied to the original design ] philosophy - if the control logic was _designed_ as a program, then it's ] microcoded. From rickb at pail.enginet.com Mon Apr 19 22:40:21 1999 From: rickb at pail.enginet.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Board ID (Omnibus PDP8)? In-Reply-To: <199904200238.AA28178@world.std.com> Message-ID: <003501be8adf$84372860$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> Hi, all, In a group of PDP8 stuff that I recently got, I got a board that I can't identify. It is most definitely not a DEC-made board, likely made by some third party. It has no identification as to function or manufacturer anywhere on it, except for stamped-on ?part number?: "303 0115 001". It is a double-sided board, with all TTL logic. Date codes on the IC's range from late 1971 through mid-1973. The IC's are mostly 7400-series small-scale devices, IE: 7410, 7404, 7400, 7474. There are also some Signetics-made IC's that have part numbers of the form SPxxx, IE: SP384A, SP380A, SP314A. There are also some other 16-pin DIP IC's (Signetics and another manufacturer whose logo I don't recognize) that have part numbers such as "N8251", "N8235", "N8256". There is a stamped on code on the back (solder) side of the board that says "7524" -- perhaps a date code? The board has NO jumpers or settings that I can find. It has no 'top' connectors, so it doesn't interconnect with other boards, and there's no cable connectors or anything like that on it. The 'extractor' handles are white (two of 'em), and have no nomenclature on them. It doesn't seem complex enough to have much functionality, and it's definitely not some kind of I/O board, as there are no ins or outs other than the OMNIBUS. There's a photo of it (large, around 460K, so there's good detail) available at the following URL: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/7510/decboard.jpg Anyone have any ideas as to what this thing might do? Rick Bensene The Old Calculators Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/7510 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 19 22:52:32 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <002801be8abc$6f36ce20$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > One other thing I'd say, though, is that it's perhaps a bit questionable > publishing code as yet because it will pollute the idea pool (no reflection > on the quality of the submitted code) in that those who read it over (which > I haven't for that reason) will potentially have their own approach > influenced by seeing someone else's. Or they'll find ways to improve on it, which is what gives this whole seemingly pointless exercise actual meaning and purpose. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 19 23:04:23 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <005501be8ac1$8db01140$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > It's called an epiphany, Sam. You know . . . a moment of clarity . . . > goodness knows one seldom gets to enjoy such an event. Well, I have another word for it, but it would only be taken as an affront, so I'll keep it to myself. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Apr 19 23:17:23 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Board ID (Omnibus PDP8)? In-Reply-To: <003501be8adf$84372860$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> References: <199904200238.AA28178@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990419211638.00adea20@mcmanis.com> I'd need to see the solder side to ID this interface. --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 19 23:37:02 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <000c01be8ae7$7021e2e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> > >> One other thing I'd say, though, is that it's perhaps a bit questionable >> publishing code as yet because it will pollute the idea pool (no reflection >> on the quality of the submitted code) in that those who read it over (which >> I haven't for that reason) will potentially have their own approach >> influenced by seeing someone else's. > >Or they'll find ways to improve on it, which is what gives this whole >seemingly pointless exercise actual meaning and purpose. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Careful now! What I find better may not be better to you. It depends on your goals and outlook. I'd have liked it better if the initial phase had been without code listings and description of the approach chosen. Nevertheless, there's not much harm done. One who wishes to be entirely original doesn't have to peek. Dick From rickb at pail.enginet.com Tue Apr 20 00:29:55 1999 From: rickb at pail.enginet.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Board ID (Omnibus PDP8)? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990419211638.00adea20@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <003801be8aee$d3c97f40$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > I'd need to see the solder side to ID this interface. > --Chuck OK... The image of the solder-side of the mystery board is at: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/7510/decboard2.jpg Thanks, Rick Bensene From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Apr 20 01:51:24 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <000c01be8ae7$7021e2e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Careful now! What I find better may not be better to you. It depends on What you find better may not be better for humanity as a whole either. > Nevertheless, there's not much harm done. One who wishes to be entirely > original doesn't have to peek. Exactly. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Apr 20 02:14:19 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: IBM 3812 toner and stuff In-Reply-To: <01be8aaa$2afdc4a0$e68ea6d1@compaq> Message-ID: I picked up some more odd bits the other day, toner and a imaging (thing, maybe its a belt) still sealed in the original carton for a IBM 3812 laser printer. Somebody need it? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 20 04:55:24 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P In-Reply-To: References: <199904191551.RAA04682@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 19, 99 05:50:12 pm Message-ID: <199904200755.JAA22535@horus.mch.sni.de> > > > Looks like it takes 240v. Can it be changes to 120v I wonder? I'm not really > > > into micro's, but I do remember the Ohio Scientific stuff vaguely.... > > All you need is a transformer 240V<->120V - these are easy to get, > > maybe look in shops where they sell electronics for tourists, or > > South American 'visitors' ... > Be careful, at least in the reverse direction (240V -> 120V). In the UK > you can get some 'travel converters' that are quite small and light, and > which have quite high power outputs (like 1kW). Needless to say they're > not transformers - they're triac-based circuits (a bit like a fixed lamp > dimmer) designed so that heating elements, etc run at the right power > when plugged into them. But the output waveform is not sinusoidal, and it > doesn't have the right peak voltage either. Of course you are right - when I said transformer, I was meaning exactly such an ancient device - havn't thought about these other thingys. > > I'ts always handy to have one. > A true step down transformer (especially if an isolating transformer, but > autotransformers are useful too) is a very useful thing to have on your > bench. I have a few of them to get 110V (for many of my devices that use > said voltage) from UK mains. I added a fixed 120V installation to my workbench including some US power outles - when going for US machinery, I want to keep them unmodified. - Also handy for a first check. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rlaven at shore.intercom.net Tue Apr 20 03:08:03 1999 From: rlaven at shore.intercom.net (rlaven) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: about cdroms... Message-ID: <001601be8b04$eb568ac0$9b6c09d0@computer-1> I have a couple Panasonic cdroms that work with an ISA soundcard. Full set of drivers and installation software also. -rob- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/b9b8c1b3/attachment.html From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue Apr 20 03:19:30 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: <199904160106.VAA04221@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > The advantage we have is that we are not intimidated by the technology and > can fix them. I am heartened by some of the examples listed which get these > machines out to people who can use them, especially the one that used them > for teaching kids how to repair and then keep their machines. I think more can be learned from old machines (of all types) than new ones. > A lot of the disposable societies glut is because the majority of people > haven't got a clue as to how their convenience machine works. If it stops > fuctioning toss it and buy another. I'm amazed at what I find in the garbage. > A good percentage of the time, it's just a faulty power cord. I've rescued a few things like that myself. Most people would toss things out, but I tinker with them. I generally don't know what I'm doing, but that doesn't mean I won't TRY to fix things! My parents seem to know to let me tinker with things before throwing them out. But if it wasn't me tinkering, it'd probably be my father... he usually tries to fix the major appliances, and he usually manages to do it. It's just the electronic gadgets that stump him! :) > > >when indoor toilets were a luxury I sometimes take a reality check and am > > > > How old are you, anyway? > > > That was in a rural villiage in Manitoba in the midforties and quite common > outside the cities. It's still not impossible to find today, in rural areas. I'm in my 20s, and I've certainly entered houses with no plumbing before. In rural areas. Heck, I used to use the outhouse at my grandparents' place (rural Quebec) when I was a kid. The whole area where they lived (and where my mother grew up) didn't have electricity until the late 40s or early 50s. I think the kitchen in the farm house _still_ has a hand pump at the sink, which pumps water from the cistern in the basement (which collects water from the metal roof). A modern bathroom wasn't installed until the 1980s after my grandfather passed away. And all heating is by wood stoves which appear by their style to have been installed somewhere around the end of the 19th century. :) No CD players or cassette players, either. Just a hand-crank gramophone. And some of the records are single-sided! Not everyone is in a rush for the latest and greatest. And I'm pretty cool with that. My uncle, who runs the farm now, finally had a phone put in in the 1980s, but not to the house. It's connected in the cow stable. He also keeps his old Model A running. He also has an old Case tractor from (I think) the 1930s which is still in use. Another uncle (same family) is a mechanic, and collects old gasoline engines and the occasional old car. And BTW, he's a _real_ mechanic who knows his stuff, not some lamer who plugs your car into some gizmo and reads the printout wrong. He experiments with discarded parts and makes his own mechanical contraptions. Old stuff is great, and generally more interesting than more modern equivalents, though I certainly wouldn't want to give up my indoor plumbing and electric furnace! Anyway, this is OT. I just came from a bad exam (made too many gaffes from double-guessing questions, and also my memory for formulae wasn't what I needed it to be) and I need to get away from computer networks for a while... which must be why I'm using one right now. ;) -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 20 05:52:44 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P In-Reply-To: <02e601be8ac1$1fe62410$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: <199904200852.KAA00854@horus.mch.sni.de> > >Here's how I'm avoiding this problem for my collection: I'm moving into a > >new house and getting 220 installed where my stuff it going to be > >located.. since it's right where the breaker panel is, it's not going to > >cost much at all... so if the computer in question is going to be located > >in a basement or wherever the breaker panel is, you don't even need a > >transformer... just get an electrician, friend, or do it yourself.. > Be carefull doing this. All foreign 240 mains that I have worked with have > been 240 between hot and neutral. This works out to be 416 phase to phase > on 3 phase systems. What you will be doing is 240 between 2 hots. This > can and will cause problems with a lot of supplies that expect the neutral > to be at / near ground. Please ? Equipment that assumes Neutral (protective ground) = Ground ? At least over here this kind of device is _strictly_ forbiddeen since >30 years, and I assume it's the same all over Europe. Only machinery with distinctive Ground and Neutral or with isolated interior is allowed (the wide variety of outlet/plug systems within Europe did support the later one a lot, since most are at least compatible for 'hot' and Ground pins :). Of course you are right, if you have some 'stone age' (let's say 50s) Eq, from a country where ground was on a fixed pin _and_ the protective ground is tied to ground (possible for Frensch, impossible for German, Netherlands or Austrian Eq). Also you schould _not_ connect your 'ground' (which is in fact a phase) at the outlet to Protective Ground ('Short Grounding') but rather use your real PG. Second is about the 220 between two phases: in the US is, AFAIK, 115V is the standard voltage (with an upper limit of 120) which comes to 200V (208V), and not 220 - and 200 is definitive to low to drive 230V (240V) equippment. Not even the old standard 220V Eq will run properly in all cases. After all, a basic transformer will be best in any case - maybe two (one at 220 and one at 230) if you want to run real old stuff. Also a 3phases system might be needed if you want to drive bigger stuff. (And when it comes to eq that needs the 50 Hz an mechanical converter is the only solution (forget about cheap electonic converters in this case, since i the EQ relies on 50Hz, it also needs a (relativly) stable sinus.) Gruss H. Disclamer - no guaranties given, always follow your local code. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue Apr 20 05:15:25 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: CP/M as an RTOS (was Re: Dumb OS question) In-Reply-To: <19990418110112.28418.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 18 Apr 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > However, MS-DOS loses if you compare functionality per byte of memory > consumed. Speaking of MS-DOS memory consumption, I just (finally) picked up a copy of PC-DOS 1.10 a few days ago. The manual includes these enlightening comments with regards to memory requirements: "Increased Memory Requirements First, DOS Version 1.10 is about 250 bytes larger than Version 1.00 and BASIC and BASICA Version 1.10 are about 200 bytes larger than their Version 1.00 counterparts. In general, this should not affect any of the applications that you have written and already run with Version 1.00. Should you encounter the rare case of having one of your applications "not fit" with Version 1.10, it may be necessary to "trim" your program to run with Version 1.10. Although we've made every effort to keep things from growing, some growth was unavoidable." Now, I wonder... was IBM speaking for Microsoft when they talked about "effort to keep things from growing"? :) > Eric -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Apr 20 05:02:57 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: References: <199904172055.QAA15418@armigeron.com> Message-ID: What might speed this along is if we create a list of agreeable items, instead of speculating in space. As I have been reading the messages a list is forming for me. Some things in this contest that sound reasonable to me; Input and output are to memory resident buffers. Inline code is too boring, and subrountine calling too important, so the "task" should require perhaps modules; maybe make the contest half a dozen subroutines which get called from a contest defined main program (using some typical non asm language like C or pascal). Needs to be fun, NOT work, and should provide a good excuse to play with our old hardware. Contest submissions could be a simple binary file, file length, predefined jump table for subroutines, the actual code. Some third party, can run the code and time it on the hardware of their choice. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 20 07:41:17 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199904201041.MAA16077@horus.mch.sni.de> > Some things in this contest that sound reasonable to me; > Input and output are to memory resident buffers. > Inline code is too boring, and subrountine calling too important, so the > "task" should require perhaps modules; maybe make the contest half a dozen > subroutines which get called from a contest defined main program (using > some typical non asm language like C or pascal). > Contest submissions could be a simple binary file, file length, predefined > jump table for subroutines, the actual code. Some third party, can run the > code and time it on the hardware of their choice. Nice, but with these things, like internas of the system for input/output, binary and similarities, you tie again all down to a single system to use - we loose the idea of a cross platform competition where only basic processor features are measured (see also the subject). Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue Apr 20 06:48:43 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Old computer books for laymen? Message-ID: Hi, I was just looking at some of the books I've collected over the years (trying not to study for the exam I have tomorrow morning) and I spotted an old book entitled "Teach Yourself Electronic Computers". It's from the Teach Yourself Books series, (c)1962 The English Universities Press Ltd. Other books in the series include "Teach Yourself Algebra", "Teach Yourself Arithmetic", "Teach Yourself Geometry", "Teach Yourself Atomic Physics" (<- I kid you not!) etc, so it seems to be a book for the non-geek. The book is actually pretty good! What other early computer books were there for the reasonably non-geekish? -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Apr 20 08:23:24 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Connecting CSA's Transputer Education Kit to an Inmos B008 References: Message-ID: <371C7FCB.36EC83C7@olf.com> Hi, I have several B004-style CSA Transputer Education Kits (aka TEKs) that use an 8-pin minidin connector for its link (compatible to apples printer cables). Is there any way for me to connect these nodes to an inmos B008 motherboard's 37-way external connector?? Thanks. Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From danburrows at mindspring.com Tue Apr 20 08:16:59 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P Message-ID: <007801be8b30$74e3a680$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >Please ? Equipment that assumes Neutral (protective ground) = Ground ? >At least over here this kind of device is _strictly_ forbiddeen since >>30 years, and I assume it's the same all over Europe. Only machinery >with distinctive Ground and Neutral or with isolated interior is allowed >(the wide variety of outlet/plug systems within Europe did support the >later one a lot, since most are at least compatible for 'hot' and Ground >pins :). In all of the UK equipment that I service from one particular manufacturer they only switch and fuse the one hot lead. The Neutral is "assumed to be at / near ground so it need no protection. If this is wired to a standard US residential then you will have no fuse protection on one lead. It will also be floating when switched off waiting to bite you. See the following attempt at ASCII art wiring which looks wrong if not viewed fixed width. US residendial 240 /120 mains power _______240V_________ | | Hot____ Neutral_____Hot | | | |__120V___|__120V___| | | | Ground This is tied to Neutral at service entrance ONLY. >standard voltage (with an upper limit of 120) which comes to 200V (208V), >and not 220 - and 200 is definitive to low to drive 230V (240V) equippment. >Not even the old standard 220V Eq will run properly in all cases. This is where the US confuses people. In commercial 3 phase it is 120 phase to neutral. 208 phase to phase. Again with neutral tied to ground at the service entrance ONLY. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Apr 20 08:55:06 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <19990420135506.21838.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Allison J Parent wrote: > > You'll have to mic it once the diameter is known you can look it up give > or take the enamel insulation. OK. Can do. > > Small, looked like #2. Can you translate that to a size? I can imagine the size of a #4 nut (I have several). I can't clearly picture how big the O.D. of a #2 would be. > ...A good material for this is hypersil commonly used for transformers. Used for the windings or the core laminations? On the topic of core size vs switching speed, I'd always assumed the drive to minaturize core was driven by the economics of memory density. I never considered memory speed. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 20 09:13:36 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <19990420135506.21838.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Can you translate that to a size? I can imagine the size of a #4 nut > (I have several). I can't clearly picture how big the O.D. of a #2 would be. > Roughly .1375 across the hex faces. > > ...A good material for this is hypersil commonly used for transformers. > > Used for the windings or the core laminations? Hypersil is a silicon steel alloy and is used for laminations. Copper, is the wire. > On the topic of core size vs switching speed, I'd always assumed the drive > to minaturize core was driven by the economics of memory density. I never > considered memory speed. That is only part of the picture. Core size affects switching speed and current needed to switch. Compounding this is more wire means resistance, heat and inductance all influencing how fast you can switch. Core is where magnetics, analog and digital intersect. Allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 20 11:22:31 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Power connectors In-Reply-To: <007801be8b30$74e3a680$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: <199904201422.QAA18187@horus.mch.sni.de> > >Please ? Equipment that assumes Neutral (protective ground) = Ground ? > >At least over here this kind of device is _strictly_ forbiddeen since > >>30 years, and I assume it's the same all over Europe. Only machinery > >with distinctive Ground and Neutral or with isolated interior is allowed > >(the wide variety of outlet/plug systems within Europe did support the > >later one a lot, since most are at least compatible for 'hot' and Ground > >pins :). > In all of the UK equipment that I service from one particular manufacturer > they only switch and fuse the one hot lead. The Neutral is "assumed to be > at / near ground so it need no protection. If this is wired to a standard > US residential then you will have no fuse protection on one lead. It will > also be floating when switched off waiting to bite you. First, to get common names: Hot = one Phase Neutral = Protective Ground Ground = Ground (the starpoint on 3 phases connected to earth at the 'generator') Hot and Ground are the basic wires to tap power, Second, do I understand that US apliences got fuses on both wires and both are switched ? Over here in Germany only one wire is switched and protected with a fuse, althrough it is not defined which one is the 'hot' line, since our connector is symetrical - there is no way to insert the plug in a way where the Hot and the Ground side is defined - Our plug isn't inherited from the DC times, but rather a new design when 220V AC became standard in the 30s, to fit the needs of (and only of) AC Eq. Back in the 40s and 50s it was common to tie Protective Ground an Ground within the outlet - especialy when they had converted a DC householde (we had big DC networks in the 20s and 30s build, and the conversation took place until the early 50s in some cities). But for new insallations Protective Ground has to be 'real' ground, in all cases, while it wasn't defined if one wire (on the outlet) has to be a Ground wire and the other a Phase (hot) or if both are Hot - this is irrelevant when it comes to AC. Even when there is a 'Ground' wire supported to a house (sometimes in the 50s and 60s, houses where only connected to the power company via 1 phase AC (unlike today where only 3 phases AC will be insalled) ) that Ground was never defined to be a 'real' ground - so it might be a 'hot' line in fact - but as said, in an AC environment it is irrelevant (especialy when Protective Ground is provided). > >standard voltage (with an upper limit of 120) which comes to 200V (208V), > >and not 220 - and 200 is definitive to low to drive 230V (240V) equippment. > >Not even the old standard 220V Eq will run properly in all cases. > This is where the US confuses people. In commercial 3 phase it is 120 phase > to neutral. 208 phase to phase. > Again with neutral tied to ground at the service entrance ONLY. Often done that way over here, but only when ground is also 'grounded' at the house entrance - in fact, to go exactly by the rules, Protective Ground has to be grounded seperatly from Ground, each with an seperate anchor. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Tue Apr 20 09:31:17 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P Message-ID: <990420103117.20c0075a@trailing-edge.com> >that were clearly under 1.4kw. The codes are aimed at providing reasonable >power. Here a 15A/115v is the nominal and 115V/20A is a max No, it isn't. I have several 115V 30A circuits in my computer room - this being an extremely common rating on the power controllers used in smaller DEC systems - and looking at the codes and the Hubbell catalog it would seem that 60A circuits are standard things as well. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Apr 20 09:31:51 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P In-Reply-To: <007801be8b30$74e3a680$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: In the mean time I notice the ebay bid is up to $180. I wonder what a c4mf or a c8df would fetch? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Daniel T. Burrows wrote: > >Please ? Equipment that assumes Neutral (protective ground) = Ground ? > >At least over here this kind of device is _strictly_ forbiddeen since > >>30 years, and I assume it's the same all over Europe. Only machinery > >with distinctive Ground and Neutral or with isolated interior is allowed > >(the wide variety of outlet/plug systems within Europe did support the > >later one a lot, since most are at least compatible for 'hot' and Ground > >pins :). > > > In all of the UK equipment that I service from one particular manufacturer > they only switch and fuse the one hot lead. The Neutral is "assumed to be > at / near ground so it need no protection. If this is wired to a standard > US residential then you will have no fuse protection on one lead. It will > also be floating when switched off waiting to bite you. > See the following attempt at ASCII art wiring which looks wrong if not > viewed fixed width. > > > US residendial 240 /120 mains power > > _______240V_________ > | | > Hot____ Neutral_____Hot > | | | > |__120V___|__120V___| > | > | > | > Ground > This is tied to Neutral > at service entrance ONLY. > > > >standard voltage (with an upper limit of 120) which comes to 200V (208V), > >and not 220 - and 200 is definitive to low to drive 230V (240V) equippment. > >Not even the old standard 220V Eq will run properly in all cases. > > > This is where the US confuses people. In commercial 3 phase it is 120 phase > to neutral. 208 phase to phase. > > Again with neutral tied to ground at the service entrance ONLY. > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 20 11:37:52 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P In-Reply-To: References: <007801be8b30$74e3a680$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: <199904201437.QAA20040@horus.mch.sni.de> > In the mean time I notice the ebay bid is up to $180. I wonder what a > c4mf or a c8df would fetch? Do you want so sell them ? Servus Hans -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Apr 20 09:53:12 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P Message-ID: In a message dated 20/04/99 10:35:53 Eastern Daylight Time, george@racsys.rt.rain.com writes: << In the mean time I notice the ebay bid is up to $180. I wonder what a c4mf or a c8df would fetch? George >> harrumph, even an IBM pc convertable (5140) was up to ~$120 yesterday! i knew i shoulda bought that one i saw last week for cheap... From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 20 10:05:05 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <001801be8b3f$2cd35340$0100c0a8@fuj03> -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 4:49 AM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >> Some things in this contest that sound reasonable to me; > >> Input and output are to memory resident buffers. > >> Inline code is too boring, and subrountine calling too important, so the >> "task" should require perhaps modules; maybe make the contest half a dozen >> subroutines which get called from a contest defined main program (using >> some typical non asm language like C or pascal). > >> Contest submissions could be a simple binary file, file length, predefined >> jump table for subroutines, the actual code. Some third party, can run the >> code and time it on the hardware of their choice. > >Nice, but with these things, like internals of the system for input/output, >binary and similarities, you tie again all down to a single system to >use - we loose the idea of a cross platform competition where only basic >processor features are measured (see also the subject). > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue Apr 20 10:26:20 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Power connectors Message-ID: <01BE8B20.9D5D62F0.steverob@hotoffice.com> > First, to get common names: > Hot = one Phase > Neutral = Protective Ground > Ground = Ground (the starpoint on 3 phases connected to earth at the 'generator') > Hot and Ground are the basic wires to tap power, Wrong... HOT and NEUTRAL provide the power legs. Earth Ground is only for protection and does not carry any power. The power company generates three phase because it is more efficient. However, in most residential areas they only provide a single phase. It doesn't make economic sense for them to string three wires when a single phase will suffice. The single phase (high voltage) is fed into a simple center tapped transformer where it provides 240 VAC for high power appliances and 2-phases each with 120 VAC for lighting and general use. || <---------- 120 VAC (HOT) ----------> || < > || < HV > || <---------- Neutral > || < ----------> || < || <---------- 120 VAC (HOT) In the early days, it was common for manufactures to use the device chassis or frame as a conductor. They would tie the Neutral wire to the chassis (under the assumption that the potential was near 0V) and save a few pennies in the manufacturing process. The problem was, it was possible to put the plug in the socket upside-down. This meant the chassis was tied to the hot leg and you could get electrocution just touching the device. In the 50's and 60's it was quite possible to get shocked by your TV by just turning it on! Today, most devices have polarized plugs so that can't happen. The neutral line should NEVER be fused. If that fuse happened to blow and the one on the HOT(s) leg didn't, the device would still be hot (even with a blown fuse). This would cause an unsafe condition. Steve Robertson - From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Apr 20 10:53:52 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P In-Reply-To: <199904201437.QAA20040@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: No.... I wish to find one! (Like the rest of us!) George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > In the mean time I notice the ebay bid is up to $180. I wonder what a > > c4mf or a c8df would fetch? > > Do you want so sell them ? > > Servus > Hans > > -- > Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ > Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ > Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK > From danburrows at mindspring.com Tue Apr 20 10:42:45 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Power connectors Message-ID: <00b501be8b45$4eb2af50$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >First, to get common names: >Hot = one Phase >Neutral = Protective Ground >Ground = Ground (the starpoint on 3 phases connected to earth at the 'generator') That explains the confusion. In the US: Hot is one phase and in single phase systems you can and do have 2 hots. Neutral is what you are refering to as ground. The starpoint for both single and 3 phase. Ground is the protective / frame ground. The protective ground (ground in US codes) is not allowed to normally carry any current. It should be able to be temporarly disconnected and not create a hazardous condition. >Second, do I understand that US appliances got fuses on both wires >and both are switched ? On 240 volt equipment yes. The 120 volt plugs are defined with distinct Hot, Neutral and ground pins. I am familiar with your plugs also and have wondered how hot / neutral definitions are handled. Think of US 120V plugs like UK plugs just smaller and without fuses in them. >Over here in Germany only one wire is >switched and protected with a fuse, althrough it is not defined >which one is the 'hot' line, since our connector is symetrical >- there is no way to insert the plug in a way where the Hot and >the Ground side is defined - Our plug isn't inherited from the >DC times, but rather a new design when 220V AC became standard >in the 30s, to fit the needs of (and only of) AC Eq. The US did not used to make a distinction between hot and neutral until about 30 years ago when they added the "protective" ground pin. Now they are keyed. If you look closely at a receptacle, one blade is wider - neutral, The narrower blade is Hot and the round pin is protective ground. Some "equipment" uses only 2 wires. The blades and often one is larger to assure that it is polarized correctly. These polarized plugs have come into common usage in the last 20 years. Dan From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Apr 20 11:14:10 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: SoCal Vintage Computer get-together Message-ID: I was just wondering (mainly for refreshment purposes) if any ListMembers in the Southern California area who might be thinking of gathering at my place after TRW for a vintage computer crawl... might drop me a line or mention you are interested... I have somewhat limited parking as well, and I was just trying to get an idea. If any SoCal Classiccmp List Members are reading this and haven't yet read the previous invitations, I am sponsoring a Vintage Computer Collection open house this saturday... e-mail me for details or see previous messages. Cheers and Thanks! John From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 20 13:17:21 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Power connectors In-Reply-To: <01BE8B20.9D5D62F0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <199904201617.SAA29699@horus.mch.sni.de> > > First, to get common names: > > Hot = one Phase > > Neutral = Protective Ground > > Ground = Ground (the starpoint on 3 phases connected to earth at the > 'generator') > > Hot and Ground are the basic wires to tap power, > Wrong... HOT and NEUTRAL provide the power legs. Earth Ground is only for > protection and does not carry any power. Ok, I just couldn't figure it out by myself (and no dictionary was able :), but that's the reason why I put this definition table upfront - so just read my not with switched names. > The power company generates three phase because it is more efficient. > However, in most residential areas they only provide a single phase. It > doesn't make economic sense for them to string three wires when a single > phase will suffice. Shure it makes a lot of sense, since the balancing of the load will be better _and_ of course the price of the wire wil be way lower due higer voltage (400V/415V instead of 230V/240V) and inherent caracteristicas of 3~ vs 2~ transmission (would take some pages to describe). Over here only 3~ power lines are supplied, no matter if comercial or residential area or building - even in the most rural places 3~ is standard (for new installations). > The single phase (high voltage) is fed into a simple center tapped > transformer where it provides 240 VAC for high power appliances and > 2-phases each with 120 VAC for lighting and general use. Not 230V/115V ? > In the early days, it was common for manufactures to use the device chassis > or frame as a conductor. They would tie the Neutral wire to the chassis > (under the assumption that the potential was near 0V) and save a few > pennies in the manufacturing process. The problem was, it was possible to > put the plug in the socket upside-down. > Today, most devices have polarized plugs so that can't happen. That's exactly what I tried to explane: plugs here in Germany are NOT polarized (since the our system is no descender of an DC system, and for an AC plus Protective Ground System it isn't needed to distinguish the power lines, as long as the Protective Ground is defined) > The neutral line should NEVER be fused. If that fuse happened to blow and > the one on the HOT(s) leg didn't, the device would still be hot (even with > a blown fuse). This would cause an unsafe condition. a) true, if Neutral is true a grounded line - from your schematics it isn't defined (unless you don't connect neutral via an anchor to 'True' Ground - which must be tha same at the generator, whitch lead to the conclusion that your 'highvoltage' lines are 2 phases of a 3~ system (*)) b) true as long as you look for fixed installed fuses within the fixed household installation. c) not true if it is about fuses within an electronic device (after the power outlet/plug) - where 'Hot' and 'Neutral' is no longer defined - at least when using systems that allow symetric interchange of the two power lines (as used in most Europe). And AFAIR this kind of devices are to be connected, and the fuse we are talking about are Fuses within the devices. (*) But if this is true, that these are 2 phases of a 3~ system (and the Neutral is tied to 'True' Ground), then you only need 200V (208V) to get 115V (120V) on each coil of the transformer. Gruss Hans Hey, Sallam, couldn't this power thing be a good addition for VCF 3.0? A speach about how to operate Eq. from a different country (and power system) in an acceptable and safe fashion ? Maybe if Philip and me (possible with a thirs, US guy) team up to give an outline of the different circumstances to remember when using foreign (old) computers ? There might be some need. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 20 13:31:55 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Power connectors In-Reply-To: <00b501be8b45$4eb2af50$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: <199904201631.SAA00737@horus.mch.sni.de> > >First, to get common names: > >Hot = one Phase > >Neutral = Protective Ground > >Ground = Ground (the starpoint on 3 phases connected to earth at the > 'generator') > That explains the confusion. In the US: > Hot is one phase and in single phase systems you can and do have 2 hots. > Neutral is what you are refering to as ground. The starpoint for both > single and 3 phase. > Ground is the protective / frame ground. Sorry, just my translation problem, I had to assign names where no dictionary could help me, And Neutral = Protective Ground vs Ground seemed to be logical - sorry. > The protective ground (ground in US codes) is not allowed to normally carry > any current. Same over here. > >Second, do I understand that US appliances got fuses on both wires > >and both are switched ? > On 240 volt equipment yes. Ahh ja - we also use fuses in each 'Hot' wire - so if you have a 3~ installation, 3 fuses are to be installed _and_ they have to be tied (mechanical), so if one blows all 3 will go off. > >Over here in Germany only one wire is > >switched and protected with a fuse, althrough it is not defined > >which one is the 'hot' line, since our connector is symetrical > >- there is no way to insert the plug in a way where the Hot and > >the Ground side is defined - Our plug isn't inherited from the > >DC times, but rather a new design when 220V AC became standard > >in the 30s, to fit the needs of (and only of) AC Eq. > The US did not used to make a distinction between hot and neutral until > about 30 years ago when they added the "protective" ground pin. Now they > are keyed. If you look closely at a receptacle, one blade is wider - > neutral, The narrower blade is Hot and the round pin is protective ground. > Some "equipment" uses only 2 wires. The blades and often one is larger to > assure that it is polarized correctly. These polarized plugs have come into > common usage in the last 20 years. Strange, but common - I don't know any reason why the system has to be keyed, I always assumed the US development of keyed plugs was triggered by old DC systems (since in DC Eq. it is necersarry to know the orientation), but not a new addition. Strange, we dropped all orientationwhen switching to AC (with Protective Ground). Could anyone give give a reason why the system has to be keyed _IF_ a Protective Ground is included (other than define the Protective Ground pin) ? Because, without Protective Ground a definition of Neutral is essential, but with, no longer. I'm realy courious, since this is the kind of technology I'm originated - I studied Starkstromelektronik (Power Electronics) after (high)school. Thanks Hans -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From gentry at zk3.dec.com Tue Apr 20 12:34:39 1999 From: gentry at zk3.dec.com (Megan Gentry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: For the contest... Message-ID: <199904201734.AA14171@kamlia.zk3.dec.com> Okay, I have been able to test the routine, and in fact it did work first time it executed... It didn't assemble first time because I had left out a local symbol, but with that corrected it built on the second try. In designing the algorithm I used, I noted that converting to Roman is the same as converting a binary value to decimal (finding the digit 0-9 for a given power-of-ten) but with the added step of converting that digit to the appropriate characters for the given power-of-ten. The routine has a table of values which are used for successively subtracting a power of ten from the value until it has a digit 0-9 and a remainder (which is handled by decreasing powers of ten on successive passes through the loop). It also maintains a pointer to the current roman numeral corresponding with the current power-of-ten. The conversion for 0-3 is easy, it simply outputs the requisite number of the current roman numeral. For 4, it outputs the current numeral followed by the numeral one higher. For 5-8, it starts by printing the numeral one higher followed by 0-3 of the current numeral. For 9, it outputs the current numeral followed by the numeral two higher. At the end of each loop, the power-of-ten pointer is incremented to the next entry, but the pointer to the roman numeral is also incremented by two. This way, the 'current numeral' pointer is always pointing to 'M', 'C', 'X', or 'I'. Since no number in the range which can be converted required numerals above 'M', I only have to worry about C, X and I. The numeral one higher than each is, respectively, D, L and V. The numeral two higher than each is, respectively, M, C and X. That's it... I didn't get info on cycles, but I did for number of instructions, which I included in the comments for the routine. One last thing - since there are quite a few members in the family of pdp-11 CPUs, the code is written to run correctly on any one of them. There are no restrictions, so using the T-11 (as I think Allison mentioned) would be possible. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ - - - - - .SBTTL CVBTAR - Convert Binary to Ascii Roman Numerals ;+ ; ; Copyright (c) 1999 by Megan Gentry ; ; CVBTAR ; Converts a binary value to string of ascii characters which ; represent the value in Roman Numerals. ; ; Call: ; R0 = Binary value to convert ; R1 -> Storage space for resulting string (nul-terminated) ; ; Returns: ; R0 = zero ; R1 -> Byte beyond end of nul-terminated string ; other registers are unaffected as they are saved and restored ; ; Notes: ; o Valid range for input is 1 to 3999. ; o Roman numerals are: ; M 1000 ; D 500 ; C 100 ; L 50 ; X 10 ; V 5 ; I 1 ; ; 60 words (120 bytes) of code ; 5 words (10 bytes) of data ; 7 bytes of text ; 3 words (6 bytes) of stack used ; ; Code ROMable: yes ; Data ROMable: yes ; Code Reentrant: yes ; Data Reentrant: yes ; Undefined opcodes: no ; Undefined behaviour: no ; ; Value Instructions executed ; 0 5 ; 4000 7 ; 1 78 ; 3999 185 ; 3888 220 ; ;- .PSECT .CODE. .ENABL LSB CVBTAR: ; Range check the input TST R0 ;Is it valid? BLE 100$ ;Nope... CMP R0,#3999. ;Maybe, check upper limit... BGT 100$ ;Nope... ; Save registers and do some setup MOV R2,-(SP) ;Save R2 MOV R3,-(SP) ; and R3 while they are used MOV #BTDTAB,R2 ;R2 -> Decimal conversion table MOV #ROMCHR,R3 ;R3 -> Roman numeral character list BR 20$ ;Just starting conversion... ; Head of the loop 10$: TST @R2 ;End of the conversion table? BEQ 90$ ;Yep, conversion should be complete 20$: MOV R0,-(SP) ;Save current binary on stack CLR R0 ;Reset R0 for conversion 30$: INC R0 ;Bump count for this digit SUB @R2,@SP ;Reduce by current factor of 10 BHIS 30$ ;Continue if still positive... ADD (R2)+,@SP ;We went too far, add it back ; (and bump conversion table pointer) ; remainder is still on stack DEC R0 ;Reduce the count BEQ 80$ ;If zero, no characters to output ; Here we convert the decimal digit to Roman Numerals CMP R0,#9. ;Is it a nine? BNE 40$ ;Nope... MOVB @R3,(R1)+ ;Yes, it converts to current numeral MOVB -2(R3),(R1)+ ; followed by the numeral two higher BR 80$ 40$: CMP R0,#4. ;Is it a four? BNE 50$ ;Nope... MOVB @R3,(R1)+ ;Yes, it converts to current numeral MOVB -1(R3),(R1)+ ; followed by the numeral one higher BR 80$ 50$: SUB #5.,R0 ;Is value five or greater? BLT 60$ ;Nope, in range zero to three MOVB -1(R3),(R1)+ ;Yes, prefix with one higher numeral SUB #5.,R0 ; followed by one to three current 60$: ADD #5.,R0 ;Return value to range zero to three BEQ 80$ ;It was zero, nothing to do... 70$: MOVB @R3,(R1)+ ;Store a numeral DEC R0 ;More to do? BGT 70$ ;Yep... ; Tail of the loop 80$: ADD #2,R3 ;Bump the numeral pointer by *2* MOV (SP)+,R0 ;Pop the remainder (already popped ; the power of ten pointer) BNE 10$ ;More conversion to do if non-zero ; Clean-up 90$: MOV (SP)+,R3 ;Restore previously saved R3 MOV (SP)+,R2 ; and R2 BR 110$ ; Out-of-range string 100$: MOVB #'*,(R1)+ ;Out-of-range conversion string ; String termination and return 110$: CLRB (R1)+ ;String is to be nul-terminated RETURN .DSABL LSB ; Conversion data .PSECT .DATA. ; Binary to decimal conversion table BTDTAB: .WORD 1000. .WORD 100. .WORD 10. .WORD 1. .WORD 0 ; ** Table Fence ** .PSECT .TEXT. ; Roman Numerals (1st, 3rd... entries match entries in BTDTAB) ROMCHR: .ASCII /MDCLXVI/ .EVEN .END From chemif at mbox.queen.it Wed Apr 7 18:13:44 1999 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (RICCARDO) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Collectors list Message-ID: <199904072313.BAA27491@beta.queen.it> At 22:33 31/03/99 +1, Hans wrote: >For a usefull system a Country identyfier and the ZIP code >should be used, like US-90210 or DE-81541 or CA-M2R3G3 >(ISO 2 Char Country identifyer plus up to 9 char for ZIP - >there is _no_ ZIP code in the world with more than 9 digits). >And for the state/province thing - that's not used outside >US/CA and defacto redundant information, since the ZIP code >already includes this - everybody knows the location of >(at least) the first two or 3 digits within his country. > >Servus >Hans I fully agree with this kind of format [CC-XXXXXXXXX] C=International country identifier X=National ZIP code that I think it is also a recomandation from the international postal organization. Riccardo Romagnoli I-47100 Forl? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 20 15:08:43 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199904201808.UAA06594@horus.mch.sni.de> > > > MOV CL, 4 > > > SHL AX, 4 > > > RET > > Why not SHL AX,4? > Because the 8088 didn't HAVE a shift immediate instruction. Check with > Allison about which processor introduced it, and when it cam out. Was 286 > <= 1983? Sorry if I'm not Alison :), but it has been the 186/188 (in my opinion the most beautiful member of the x86 family) which first used a barrel shifter and first allowed immidiate multiple shifts. Correct me if my memory is corroded. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Apr 20 12:01:15 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:22 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <80256759.005DF59D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> Can you translate that to a size? I can imagine the size of a #4 nut >> (I have several). I can't clearly picture how big the O.D. of a #2 would be. >> > Roughly .1375 across the hex faces. > >> > ...A good material for this is hypersil commonly used for transformers. >> >> Used for the windings or the core laminations? > > Hypersil is a silicon steel alloy and is used for laminations. Copper, is > the wire. I seem to have lost the attributions of much of the above, but... I would have thought that transformer steel is _not_ a good material for cores. Transformer steel is designed for making the hysteresis as small as possible, so as to minimise core losses, etc. Whereas for core memory, you need a good sized hysteresis because this corresponds to stored energy, which will drive the pulse on the sense line. (As I understand it, when you _don't_ flip a bit, the pulse on the sense line is roughly that from the transformer effect in the core. If you _do_ flip a bit, you get the transformer effect, plus a pulse of stored energy from the core.) Rather than using steel nuts - which may be very inconsistent in their magnetic properties - would ferrite beads, as used for interference suppression, work? Or to they have too small a hysteresis like transformer steel? > That is only part of the picture. Core size affects switching speed and > current needed to switch. Compounding this is more wire means > resistance, heat and inductance all influencing how fast you can switch. > Core is where magnetics, analog and digital intersect. Nice Description, Allison. I like it. Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Apr 20 12:17:14 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Power connectors Message-ID: <80256759.005F6C53.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> >First, to get common names: >> >Hot = one Phase >> >Neutral = Protective Ground >> >Ground = Ground (the starpoint on 3 phases connected to earth at the >> 'generator') > >> That explains the confusion. In the US: >> Hot is one phase and in single phase systems you can and do have 2 hots. >> Neutral is what you are refering to as ground. The starpoint for both >> single and 3 phase. >> Ground is the protective / frame ground. Yes. In the UK, "Hot" is usually referred to as "Live", and until 1992 this was the official term. In 1992 the term was changed to "Line", so that the phrase "Live parts" could be introduced to mean any conductor connected to the electrical supply (i.e. not including the protective ground, which is called "Earth") >> >Second, do I understand that US appliances got fuses on both wires >> >and both are switched ? >> On 240 volt equipment yes. > > Ahh ja - we also use fuses in each 'Hot' wire - so if you have a > 3~ installation, 3 fuses are to be installed _and_ they have to > be tied (mechanical), so if one blows all 3 will go off. In the UK it is similar, although I don't think there is a requirement for fuses to break all three phases for a fault on one. Since the US has many 240V centre-tapped-to-ground installations, 240V would have fuses in both lines (both hot) but none in neutral. ISTR the neutral wire in some 240V equipment (cookers are an example that springs to mind) is used instead of protective ground, which makes me a little uneasy. >> >Over here in Germany only one wire is >> >switched and protected with a fuse, althrough it is not defined >> >which one is the 'hot' line, since our connector is symetrical >> >- there is no way to insert the plug in a way where the Hot and >> >the Ground side is defined - Our plug isn't inherited from the >> >DC times, but rather a new design when 220V AC became standard >> >in the 30s, to fit the needs of (and only of) AC Eq. Hans, I think you've gone some way to answering your own question here. See below. >> The US did not used to make a distinction between hot and neutral until >> about 30 years ago when they added the "protective" ground pin. Now they >> are keyed. If you look closely at a receptacle, one blade is wider - >> neutral, The narrower blade is Hot and the round pin is protective ground. >> Some "equipment" uses only 2 wires. The blades and often one is larger to >> assure that it is polarized correctly. These polarized plugs have come into >> common usage in the last 20 years. Ah. That explains some sockets that I saw when over there last year. > Strange, but common - I don't know any reason why the system has > to be keyed, I always assumed the US development of keyed plugs > was triggered by old DC systems (since in DC Eq. it is necersarry > to know the orientation), but not a new addition. Strange, we > dropped all orientationwhen switching to AC (with Protective > Ground). Could anyone give give a reason why the system has > to be keyed _IF_ a Protective Ground is included (other than > define the Protective Ground pin) ? Because, without Protective > Ground a definition of Neutral is essential, but with, no longer. Because the fuse and/or switch _in the equipment_ has to be on the hot/live side of the supply. Otherwise a blown fuse - because of a short circuit - could leave the equipment with the hot supply still connected to whatever shorted out. Which could be the chassis... Also, at least in the UK, some old equipment had neutral solidly bonded to the chassis and no protective ground. This is common on valved (tubed) radios and things. ISTR that here the fuse was generally on the chassis side, so that when the fuse blew, the chassis would no longer be connected. Still not really safe, since the chassis would be connected to the other side via the heaters of all the valves, and these typically pass 100mA to 300mA at mains voltage, or more if they're cold. Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Apr 20 12:20:19 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: OT: City Names Message-ID: <80256759.005FB445.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> Well I was at an American run management course last year in Newcastle. One >> of the (male) attendees made the comment that he was cold and that he was >> going to get a jumper. This caused a hysterical reaction by one of the >> female presenters - apparently from her part of the USA a jumper is a dress! > > Farzino, a "jumper" is a dress anywhere in the US, specifically a > dress of a style rarely worn once puberty kicks in. Possibly the > standardisation of that nomenclature resulted from the fact that > that's what was used in the old Sears-Roebuck catalogs that were > distributed nationwide. That sounds like what I would call a "pinnafore dress". In the UK a Jumper is usually a sweater. The only exception I have met was in the _Manual of Seamanship_, published by the Admiralty in (I think) 1938, where it lists the kit issued to sailors, with illustrations. There the sweater is called a "Jersey", and "Jumper" refers to something resembling a football shirt. Well, the top half of a sailor suit anyway :-) Philip. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 20 15:31:05 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <199904181809.OAA10315@armigeron.com> References: <004101be89ad$cfecc220$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 18, 99 09:11:21 am Message-ID: <199904201831.UAA07604@horus.mch.sni.de> > Convert a binary value to Roman, using ASCII characters (or > the native character set if applicable) into a string > with a termination character (if ASCII, use the NUL (0) > character). Is a length terminated record valid ? > The valid Roman characters used are IVXLCDM Is Space valid ? Romans did include them at will. > > There are a few details which have been left out of the specification for > > this task. > > Does it require input validation? > I think I specified that. The valid range of Roman numerals is 1 through > 3,999 inclusive. The routine does have to check that and construct a > special string ( "*" ) if the input is not in that range. > > Is the binary input pure binary, or is it BCD? > Okay, that might be a valid point, but it's pure binary, not BCD. Fine, you stated max input 3999, but to be checked, and you stated binary, but in what format ? Half Word (16 Bit), Word (32) or Double Word (64) ? To be transfered at a given location, or via a pointer, or via register (attention, might again be processor specific). > > What about the console I/O routine? Shouldn't there be some definition of > > how it's to be used? Should it be a call with the I/O character simply held > > in a register before/after the call? > I liked Sam's suggestion of ``printing to memory'' as a way to avoid the > complications of I/O in this, and if I didn't make this clear that the > conversion was to be stored in memory, I'm sorry. Output, to a given location (pointer) or static buffer ? Check for buffer length or asumption of an buffer, always big enough ? (if you check the binary number you also have to check the buffer (if given).) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Apr 20 13:37:58 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Apple 1 auction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199904201833.NAA27523@trailingedge.com> If you are looking for an Apple 1 check out: http://lasallegallery.com/framemac.htm Better have some big piles of cash, they claim: "The estimated current market price of an Apple 1 exceeds $40,000.00!" I guess the one at VCF was a true steal then... :-) ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Apr 20 13:36:31 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Power connectors In-Reply-To: <199904201617.SAA29699@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > Hey, Sallam, couldn't this power thing be a good addition for > VCF 3.0? A speach about how to operate Eq. from a different > country (and power system) in an acceptable and safe fashion ? > Maybe if Philip and me (possible with a thirs, US guy) team up > to give an outline of the different circumstances to remember > when using foreign (old) computers ? There might be some need. Yes, I think this would make for a great workshop. I expect more people to start trading computers across the world and this will make for a very relevant discussion. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Apr 20 13:48:11 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Apple 1 auction In-Reply-To: <199904201833.NAA27523@trailingedge.com> from David Williams at "Apr 20, 1999 01:37:58 pm" Message-ID: <199904201848.SAA02983@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > If you are looking for an Apple 1 check out: > > http://lasallegallery.com/framemac.htm > > Better have some big piles of cash, they claim: > > "The estimated current market price of an Apple 1 exceeds > $40,000.00!" > > I guess the one at VCF was a true steal then... :-) > Let me know if they actually sell it for 40 big ones... I can always have them sell my Sun Microsystems model 1/100U "prototype'... Hmm, maybe I can convince them that the U means something important... Quick, someone with a thesaurus look up a word starting with U that means either Prototype, Rare, or Java... Why, the estimated current market price is over 10, er, i mean 15,000.00 -Lawrence LeMay From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Apr 20 14:03:41 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Apple 1 auction In-Reply-To: <199904201848.SAA02983@thorin.cs.umn.edu> References: <199904201833.NAA27523@trailingedge.com> from David Williams at "Apr 20, 1999 01:37:58 pm" Message-ID: <199904201859.NAA27671@trailingedge.com> On 20 Apr 99, at 13:48, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Let me know if they actually sell it for 40 big ones... I can always > have them sell my Sun Microsystems model 1/100U "prototype'... Hmm, > maybe I can convince them that the U means something important... > Quick, someone with a thesaurus look up a word starting with U that > means either Prototype, Rare, or Java... Rare - Uncommon, unusual ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 20 12:51:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <19990420023121.27717.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 19, 99 07:31:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 889 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/d24136e4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 20 13:02:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Several things In-Reply-To: <199904200326.XAA11974@platy.cs.unc.edu> from "Bill Yakowenko" at Apr 19, 99 11:26:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2083 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/5509e41b/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 20 16:00:59 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Apple 1 auction In-Reply-To: <199904201833.NAA27523@trailingedge.com> References: Message-ID: <199904201901.VAA09051@horus.mch.sni.de> > If you are looking for an Apple 1 check out: > http://lasallegallery.com/framemac.htm > Better have some big piles of cash, they claim: > "The estimated current market price of an Apple 1 exceeds > $40,000.00!" HAHAHA I'm _very_ interested in the final Price :) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 20 16:00:59 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Power connectors In-Reply-To: <80256759.005F6C53.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <199904201901.VAA09054@horus.mch.sni.de> > Yes. In the UK, "Hot" is usually referred to as "Live", and until 1992 this was > the official term. In 1992 the term was changed to "Line", so that the phrase > "Live parts" could be introduced to mean any conductor connected to the > electrical supply (i.e. not including the protective ground, which is called > "Earth") Shure ? Interesting, I'll avoided this term, since Erde (Earth) seamed to me _very_ German :) > >> >Over here in Germany only one wire is > >> >switched and protected with a fuse, althrough it is not defined > >> >which one is the 'hot' line, since our connector is symetrical > >> >- there is no way to insert the plug in a way where the Hot and > >> >the Ground side is defined - Our plug isn't inherited from the > >> >DC times, but rather a new design when 220V AC became standard > >> >in the 30s, to fit the needs of (and only of) AC Eq. > Hans, I think you've gone some way to answering your own question here. See > below. ?? > > Strange, but common - I don't know any reason why the system has > > to be keyed, I always assumed the US development of keyed plugs > > was triggered by old DC systems (since in DC Eq. it is necersarry > > to know the orientation), but not a new addition. Strange, we > > dropped all orientationwhen switching to AC (with Protective > > Ground). Could anyone give give a reason why the system has > > to be keyed _IF_ a Protective Ground is included (other than > > define the Protective Ground pin) ? Because, without Protective > > Ground a definition of Neutral is essential, but with, no longer. > Because the fuse and/or switch _in the equipment_ has to be on the hot/live side > of the supply. Otherwise a blown fuse - because of a short circuit - could > leave the equipment with the hot supply still connected to whatever shorted out. > Which could be the chassis... So, now just tell me why our system works great, where the _inner_ fuse is randomly asserted to Line ore Neutral - shure, your example fits, as long as the chassis is not wired to Earth (Protective Ground) - but as soon as it is, and there is a (possible harmfull) connection betwen the Line wire and the chassis, the regulat (outside) fuse will go off. In fact the _inner_ fuse is/was never ment to secure the user, but rather the Eq. (implicietly also the user, because if the something would overheat a fire would also cause harm to the user). > Also, at least in the UK, some old equipment had neutral solidly bonded to the > chassis and no protective ground. This is common on valved (tubed) radios and > things. ISTR that here the fuse was generally on the chassis side, so that when > the fuse blew, the chassis would no longer be connected. Still not really safe, > since the chassis would be connected to the other side via the heaters of all > the valves, and these typically pass 100mA to 300mA at mains voltage, or more if > they're cold. Not over here - since the general AC system was introduced the connector was always flipable (not polarized) and no connection was allowed inside the device between Neutral and any user touchable part. The connection between Neutral and Earth was always done in the fixed part (eg. in the outlet in early times). Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 20 13:10:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Board ID (Omnibus PDP8)? In-Reply-To: <003501be8adf$84372860$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> from "Rick Bensene" at Apr 19, 99 08:40:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1988 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/97052a8d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 20 13:23:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Apr 20, 99 04:19:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1500 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/e2e842b2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 20 13:50:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Connecting CSA's Transputer Education Kit to an Inmos B008 In-Reply-To: <371C7FCB.36EC83C7@olf.com> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Apr 20, 99 09:23:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 637 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/786c7354/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 20 13:39:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P In-Reply-To: <199904200755.JAA22535@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 20, 99 09:56:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1094 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/4a4bd7c1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 20 13:45:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P In-Reply-To: <199904200852.KAA00854@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 20, 99 10:53:44 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1875 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/d330543c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 20 13:48:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P In-Reply-To: <007801be8b30$74e3a680$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Apr 20, 99 09:16:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1068 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/bd349c8f/attachment.ksh From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Apr 20 14:11:46 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Connecting CSA's Transputer Education Kit to an Inmos B008 Message-ID: <01be8b61$a2100500$9101eac5@tiger> >> >> Hi, >> >> I have several B004-style CSA Transputer Education Kits (aka TEKs) that use >> an 8-pin minidin connector for its link (compatible to apples printer >> cables). Is there any way for me to connect these nodes to an inmos B008 >> motherboard's 37-way external connector?? Thanks. > > >If they're standard Transputer links, then sure. Have you tried tracing >the pins on the 8 pin miniDINs to see what they're connected to (like >link pins on the transputer)? Reset/error/analyse could be harder to >trace (since they'll possibly go to PALs), but you should be able to >figure something out by which are inputs/outputs. > Actually, I have full details on how to connect (with pinouts) TEKs to other transputer motherboards including INMOS', but not the INMOS B008. Apparently, the specs mention a 5x1 connector (or is it a 5x2) on inmos boards that can be used to connect the TEK to, but since I don't have a B008 yet (coming in the mail anytime now), I can't verify if this type of connector exists on it. I will send out full details once I am at home with all the pinouts etc. Ram From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 20 16:15:14 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P In-Reply-To: References: <199904200852.KAA00854@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 20, 99 10:53:44 am Message-ID: <199904201915.VAA09751@horus.mch.sni.de> > > Also you schould _not_ connect your 'ground' (which is in fact a phase) > > at the outlet to Protective Ground ('Short Grounding') but rather use > > your real PG. > Why not? In the UK, it's very common (required?) for almost all metalwork > (water pipes, etc) to be bonded to the mains electrical earth as well. > You mustn't connect neutral to earth at any point (except as part of a > PME installation), though. Jep, same here, but I was refering to his US installation to get 230 V > > Second is about the 220 between two phases: in the US is, AFAIK, 115V is the > > standard voltage (with an upper limit of 120) which comes to 200V (208V), > > and not 220 - and 200 is definitive to low to drive 230V (240V) equippment. > > Not even the old standard 220V Eq will run properly in all cases. > No. The US mains is 234V centre-tapped. It's not part of a 3-phase system > (at least not normally) - the 2 live wires are 180 degrees out of phase. > So you do get 234V by connecting to the 2 hot wires. Realy 234V (strange) and 180 degree ? Where do you know ? By definition ? Just remember, if you tap between 2 phases of a 3~ signal you still get a perfect sinus and you can't decide if it is a single phase or part of a 3 phase signal. Ok, I'm always learning new things on this earth :9 The numbers just saemed to fit well. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 20 14:28:23 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <80256759.005DF59D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: > I would have thought that transformer steel is _not_ a good material for cores. > Transformer steel is designed for making the hysteresis as small as possible, so > as to minimise core losses, etc. Whereas for core memory, you need a good sized > hysteresis because this corresponds to stored energy, which will drive the pulse > on the sense line. It happens to be adaquate, it does exhibit hysteresis. > (As I understand it, when you _don't_ flip a bit, the pulse on the sense line is > roughly that from the transformer effect in the core. If you _do_ flip a bit, > you get the transformer effect, plus a pulse of stored energy from the core.) Correct, but the pulse that indicates the core switched is delayed in time Hence the critical slice time. Core size affects this as does the select current. > Rather than using steel nuts - which may be very inconsistent in their magnetic > properties - would ferrite beads, as used for interference suppression, work? > Or to they have too small a hysteresis like transformer steel? Actually the nuts have an adaquate hysteresis to make a demo core but it would not work useably well. Ferrites used for beads have low permability. But since they are available I'd try one and see. > Nice Description, Allison. I like it. Core is mysterious but when broken down the mechanism is easy enough to understand. then you need to understand the interactions... ;) Allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Apr 20 14:31:43 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <19990420193143.14085.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > The wire used should present little trouble as fine wire can still be > had. > > > > Any idea how to estimate the gauge? I know I'd need red and green > enameled, > > Do you have/can you borrow a micrometer? As a matter of fact I do. I should have thought of that before. > There is a prototyping system, made by a company called 'road runner' > that uses fine enammeled wire. I think it's 30swg or something like that. Is this like Augat Unilayer? > > How much oomph would it take to induce a stable magnetic pattern in a > > steel nut?!? > > > > Anyone with a EE degree and a copy of Spice care to take a stab at it? > > Or alternatively do it properly and _build_ the darn thing :-). I do not believe my engineering and math skills are adequate to design it, but given the specs, I sure could _build_ it. If anyone is considering this, please bore out the threads of the nut (if you use nuts) before determining the saturation current. It will minimize mechanical wear on the insulation. I may just go to the local fastener house and buy a box of #2 nuts and build a mat of this just to hang on the wall. ;-) -ethan -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Apr 20 14:40:47 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Is this a silly question - re: microcode Message-ID: <006b01be8b65$b0c34ea0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> As many of you all know, I'm trying to get an HP2000 TSB system up and running. Purist that I am, I am using only original HP gear for it. However, I'm also thinking ahead to the power consumption (ie the Amps) that the system draws. I might not be able to afford to keep it online all the time. So I have been starting the mental exercise of laying out how to best design an emulator. The overal design layout is complete, but there is a low-level issue I can't get my brain around and thought someone here might have some input on the following: The 2100A/S or 21MX/E systems were microcoded. Matter of fact, the control processor on those systems is 24 bit, while the appearance at the non-microcode level is a 16 bit machine. Should I write my emulator to process the microcode instructions or the 2100A/S or 21MX/E instruction set that the microcode implements? I was planning on the latter, however one argument for the former is that HP did release special ROMS to extend the instruction set for special applications (DMS for one, SIS, FFP, 2000Access IOP for others). I would like users to be able to set the emulator to a given hardware configuration (ie. command line options to turn on the DMS, SIS instruction sets) rather than assuming a machine configured with all available options. Each I/O interface card would have it's own loadable module, so they can select what cards are installed in what slots, etc. I just have the gut feeling that there's some obvious reason to do one or the other that I'm missing... Yes, I am aware of Jeff Moffat's 2100 emulator; nothing at all against his code, but I'd just prefer to start from scratch (this means I'm idiotic or masochistic or more than likely both) . I'll write it in C on Unix (FreeBSD) but make sure the makefiles are setup so DOS porting is just a configure argument. Heck, the whole project is worth it just to see TSB running on a Pentium II 400! Any input appreciated! Jay West From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue Apr 20 15:03:02 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P Message-ID: <01BE8B47.4545E520.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > Realy 234V (strange) and 180 degree ? Where do you know ? By definition ? > Just remember, if you tap between 2 phases of a 3~ signal you still get > a perfect sinus and you can't decide if it is a single phase or part of > a 3 phase signal. Ok, I'm always learning new things on this earth :9 > The numbers just saemed to fit well. > It's 230, 231, whatever it takes (from the movie "Mister Mom"). I'm sure the power company has a legal obligation to keep the voltage within a certain range of values. Although, I don't know exactly what that range is. I think 117 is probably the optimal value for each of the legs giving 234 for the total. I've heard it referred to as 110, 115, 117, and 120. Since the actual voltage varies any of these could be correct. Since it is a simple transformer, the phases are 180 degrees out of phase (by definition). That's assuming a balanced resistive load. Of course, that could change under a heavy inductive or capacitive load but, that's an extreme and won't normally present a problem. Steve Robertson - From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Apr 20 15:08:53 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Ongoing core memory discussion (was Re: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?) Message-ID: <19990420200853.23142.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > Correct, but the pulse that indicates the core switched is delayed in > time Hence the critical slice time. Ah! The light goes on! > Core size affects this as does the select current. That makes perfect sense. > Actually the nuts have an adaquate hysteresis to make a demo core but it > would not work useably well. Funny you should mention demo core. I have had in the back of my mind for several years now a project: demonstrate memory storage by building a mini- core mat on top of an FPGA socket and drive it via some kind of parallel- port A-D/D-A interface. The purpose of the demo would be to stick the core mat into a ZIF socket, program it, display the bits on the screen, remove the mat from the socket, turn it around and show how the bits have moved... not particularly practical, but a good visual demonstration of the technology. A special bonus is that the demonstrator can prove that core is non-volatile by letting the audience see the plane out of the socket between phases of the demonstration. I'm thinking of a 4x4 or a 5x5 mat; nothing larger than 8x8. The test jig could be even 2x2 inside a larger FPGA socket. The external circuit would have to be able to select the half-currents on the X and Y planes, then send a pulse and then time the return, yes? I have a general knowledge of the sense amps and inhibit drivers for several PDP-8 models. Is it possible to simplify that circuit if you knew that you had read cycle time of several or tens of milliseconds? Perhaps by having one circuit to control all the X lines, one circuit to control all the Y lines and some sort of analog multiplexer? > Ferrites used for beads have low permability. But since they are available > I'd try one and see. How do the different dimensions affect this all? (Most ferrite beads I've seen are taller than their diameter (HoHo's, not KingDons, if you will). In other words, the ferrite beads have a different aspect ratio compared to the #2 nuts (or a standard ferrite core). How does this affect usability as a memory device? -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 20 17:13:00 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Powerlines In-Reply-To: <01BE8B47.4545E520.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <199904202013.WAA12095@horus.mch.sni.de> > > Realy 234V (strange) and 180 degree ? Where do you know ? By definition ? > > Just remember, if you tap between 2 phases of a 3~ signal you still get > > a perfect sinus and you can't decide if it is a single phase or part of > > a 3 phase signal. Ok, I'm always learning new things on this earth :9 > > The numbers just saemed to fit well. > It's 230, 231, whatever it takes (from the movie "Mister Mom"). :)) > I'm sure the power company has a legal obligation to keep the voltage > within a certain range of values. Although, I don't know exactly what that > range is. I think 117 is probably the optimal value for each of the legs > giving 234 for the total. I've heard it referred to as 110, 115, 117, and > 120. Since the actual voltage varies any of these could be correct. Anybody out there knowing the US regulations ? AFAIR somewhen in the late 70s the acording definitions have been worldewide standardized on 115V/200V and 230/400V - the intention was to allow manufacturers (especialy the ones for power transmission systems) to develop more efiecently and to lower building costs, since within the lower power range (up to some MW) designs could be standardized on a simple level. > Since it is a simple transformer, the phases are 180 degrees out of phase > (by definition). That's assuming a balanced resistive load. Of course, that > could change under a heavy inductive or capacitive load but, that's an > extreme and won't normally present a problem. Still not an argument against 2 phases from an 3~ signal. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From spc at armigeron.com Tue Apr 20 15:27:55 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <199904201831.UAA07604@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 20, 99 08:32:05 pm Message-ID: <199904202027.QAA14717@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2281 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/fa97a8b5/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 20 15:46:24 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <19990420193143.14085.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I wager teh wire used in the core is finer than #30, my bet is #40. > I do not believe my engineering and math skills are adequate to design it, > but given the specs, I sure could _build_ it. If anyone is considering > this, please bore out the threads of the nut (if you use nuts) before > determining the saturation current. It will minimize mechanical wear on > the insulation. I may just go to the local fastener house and buy a box > of #2 nuts and build a mat of this just to hang on the wall. ;-) Skip all the fancy sillyness. All I need is s pulse generator that can generate fast bidirectional pulses with currents to 1-2A and a scope. from that I can tell what current saturates the core and what it's switch thresholds are. actually a power supply abnd resistor and a switch will do for the pulse generator, though it's more manual. the rest is easy. The array will have to be tuned once built anyway but knowing what the X and Y currents have to add to +/- 10% is enough to get it going. The inhibit current will be the mirror of the half select current. Oh, the same rig will be a good apprasial of the figure of merit for the core. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 20 15:52:40 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Ongoing core memory discussion (was Re: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?) In-Reply-To: <19990420200853.23142.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Funny you should mention demo core. I have had in the back of my mind for > several years now a project: demonstrate memory storage by building a mini- > core mat on top of an FPGA socket and drive it via some kind of parallel- > port A-D/D-A interface. The purpose of the demo would be to stick the > core mat into a ZIF socket, program it, display the bits on the screen, > remove the mat from the socket, turn it around and show how the bits have > moved... not particularly practical, but a good visual demonstration of > the technology. A special bonus is that the demonstrator can prove that > core is non-volatile by letting the audience see the plane out of the socket Why a/d and d/a? > I'm thinking of a 4x4 or a 5x5 mat; nothing larger than 8x8. The test jig actually 8x8 by one bit is fairly easy to do. > of the sense amps and inhibit drivers for several PDP-8 models. Is it > possible to simplify that circuit if you knew that you had read cycle time > of several or tens of milliseconds? Perhaps by having one circuit to control > all the X lines, one circuit to control all the Y lines and some sort of > analog multiplexer? Foo, wrong way to go. Too top heavy. Also the cores even if slow switch in the microsecond range. > How do the different dimensions affect this all? (Most ferrite beads I've > seen are taller than their diameter (HoHo's, not KingDons, if you will). > In other words, the ferrite beads have a different aspect ratio compared > to the #2 nuts (or a standard ferrite core). How does this affect usability > as a memory device? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 20 17:54:49 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <199904202027.QAA14717@armigeron.com> References: <199904201831.UAA07604@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 20, 99 08:32:05 pm Message-ID: <199904202054.WAA13652@horus.mch.sni.de> > > > Convert a binary value to Roman, using ASCII characters (or > > > the native character set if applicable) into a string > > > with a termination character (if ASCII, use the NUL (0) > > > character). > > Is a length terminated record valid ? > Hmmmm ... I might be inclinded to say yes, but is there any reason it > can't be NUL terminated (or terminated with the appropriate termination > character for the character set)? Just since it is the usual way within the OS I'm trying to code. NUL is like any other caracter valid within a string. Also, it gieve me an disadvantage - instead of just adding '\0' I have to calculate the string. > > > The valid Roman characters used are IVXLCDM > > Is Space valid ? Romans did include them at will. > I did not know that, but for this program no, spaces are not allowed. Ok. > > > > There are a few details which have been left out of the specification for > > > > this task. > > > > Does it require input validation? > > > I think I specified that. The valid range of Roman numerals is 1 through > > > 3,999 inclusive. The routine does have to check that and construct a > > > special string ( "*" ) if the input is not in that range. > > > > Is the binary input pure binary, or is it BCD? > > > Okay, that might be a valid point, but it's pure binary, not BCD. > > Fine, you stated max input 3999, but to be checked, and you > > stated binary, but in what format ? Half Word (16 Bit), > > Word (32) or Double Word (64) ? > Uh, I was unaware that halfwords had a specific size (on the DEC Alpha, a > half word would be 32 bits in size). Like Words, they are just machine dependant ... in a given 32 Bit CPU a halfword is just 16 - so whats the input ? (in fact, I'll assume 32 Bit) > > To be transfered at a given location, or via a pointer, > > or via register (attention, might again be processor specific). > Appropriate to the CPU or the situation. Obviously, a 6502 can't pass it > in a single register, but there are other options. That's why I didn't > specify how to pass the data in. :))) And why specifying a '\0' byte ? > > > I liked Sam's suggestion of ``printing to memory'' as a way to avoid the > > > complications of I/O in this, and if I didn't make this clear that the > > > conversion was to be stored in memory, I'm sorry. > > > Output, to a given location (pointer) or static buffer ? > > Check for buffer length or asumption of an buffer, always big > > enough ? (if you check the binary number you also have to check > > the buffer (if given).) > Again, it's up to the programmer. But be prepared to justify your answers > 8-) :)) > -spc (Welcome to the world of programming 8-) All simple, all the same, isn't it ? And again, more questions: If I'm right at Megans description, she just include the next lower digit when it comes to these subtraction rules, and your Algo seams to be weak at the same point. Let me give an example: 49 would be normaly coded as IL (always remember, it was kind of a system to reduce writing as much as possible - there are even examples where the number 248 is written CIIL) while Megan seams to code it as XXXXIX - basicly wrong - or did I miss something ? I'm not realy what one can call a DEC-Geek. So do we only have to supporte the one-less rule, or the rule of one subtraction numeral - or the full possibility with the goal to reduce writing to a max ? Gruss H. Oh, BTW: this contest is exacty into the direction where we didn't want to go - we are comparing algorythms and not CPUs - for a more CPU dependant contest we need to fix the algo to use, so the difference will reflect the differences in processor design and not into algo design (of course there's more sex appeal in the my-algo-is-bether- than-yours, than in the my-(what-ever-algo)-implementation-is-better). So I still go for the idea of implementing one algo as good as possible for the different CPUs - more on Friday (I'm not full time available until then). -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 20 15:00:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <80256759.005DF59D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Apr 20, 99 06:01:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 940 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/de112153/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Apr 20 16:20:43 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: References: <80256759.005DF59D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <4.1.19990420141938.03cd9100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Perhaps soft iron #2 washers would be a better choice. The local hardware store sells nuts but they are zinc or brass, not steel. --Chuck From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 20 18:17:50 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Counting keystrokes In-Reply-To: <19990321012214.1366.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <000701be7338$69475d40$10bb6420@barrysp2> (Watzman@ibm.net) Message-ID: <199904202117.XAA14484@horus.mch.sni.de> > > Believe it or not, the most common use of keeping keystrokes was for > > employee evaluation. I remember weekly postings of graphs of > > "keystrokes/hour" in data entry and word processing departments, with a > > weekly "prize" [nominal value] for the "best" data entry operator of the > > week. > Does it matter *which* keystrokes they are? In particular, does backspace > count? > If a business activity doesn't have any better metric than keystrokes, > is it even worth doing? Never forgett thet there hav been jobs where just keying in data is the goal (or are they still around) ? Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 20 16:22:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Connecting CSA's Transputer Education Kit to an Inmos B008 In-Reply-To: <01be8b61$a2100500$9101eac5@tiger> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Apr 20, 99 03:11:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2171 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/1c6d8fe1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 20 16:27:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <19990420193143.14085.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 20, 99 12:31:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 862 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/2200802a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 20 16:44:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Power connectors In-Reply-To: <199904201901.VAA09054@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 20, 99 09:01:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4152 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/2595947e/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Tue Apr 20 17:13:47 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) References: <199904201831.UAA07604@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 20, 99 08:32:05 pm Message-ID: <199904202213.AA03077@world.std.com> >And again, more questions: >If I'm right at Megans description, she just include the next lower >digit when it comes to these subtraction rules, and your Algo seams >to be weak at the same point. Let me give an example: >49 would be normaly coded as IL (always remember, it was kind of a >system to reduce writing as much as possible - there are even examples >where the number 248 is written CIIL) while Megan seams to code it as >XXXXIX - basicly wrong - or did I miss something ? I'm not realy >what one can call a DEC-Geek. My code would produce XLIX, not XXXXIX... I guess I'm unclear as to whether any numeral can be used to reduce the value of a higher, subsequent numeral. Using your explanation, 1999 would be MIM, instead of the more standard (as I have seen it) MCMXCIX. Also, what's to stop someone from writing it in a form employing the vinculum: __ III >So do we only have to supporte the one-less rule, or the rule >of one subtraction numeral - or the full possibility with the >goal to reduce writing to a max ? So long as someone can clearly explain the rules to what can be subtracted from what, I'll implement it... (kind of like requiring a spec). Without it, I can only go on what I can find documented in the encyclopedia... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 20 17:36:54 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P Message-ID: <199904202236.AA24775@world.std.com> <>that were clearly under 1.4kw. The codes are aimed at providing reasonabl <>power. Here a 15A/115v is the nominal and 115V/20A is a max < Message-ID: <4.1.19990420160010.03cdf300@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 06:49 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote: > >Same material as the nuts. A higer carbon steel (more remnant magnetizem) >may work but you really want small to keep the drive resonable. I'm not sure I parsed this. At my local hardware store the nuts were made of Zinc (not steel) and but the washers were made of "soft iron" which I thought meant there was a _lower_ carbon content than "steel" washers. (The washers are designed to be compliant whereas the nuts are quite hard) But assuming I have something worth trying, and I've got my HP pulse generator set up to drive a fast rise time buffer amp (so I can get a reasonable amount of current) what else do I need to do to verify that I've successfully "flipped" the device. (My first guess would be a garden variety compass) --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 20 18:44:59 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <001b01be8b87$ceb88e80$0100c0a8@fuj03> I'm no expert on Roman numerals, but I recently saw a movie released in MCMXLIX. Now, we know what the MCM means, but I submit that the intention of chiseling as little stone as possible, the romans avoided the use of 4 successive numerals by use of bi-quinary counting. However, the use of IX for 9 as opposed to VIV, as in the MCM above, is a bit ambigous. I'm not planning any trips to the former Roman Empire, so I doubt I'll do better than trusting the conclusion reached in this forum. Does anybody have an authoritative reference? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 3:10 PM Subject: Re: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) > >> > > Convert a binary value to Roman, using ASCII characters (or >> > > the native character set if applicable) into a string >> > > with a termination character (if ASCII, use the NUL (0) >> > > character). >> > Is a length terminated record valid ? > >> Hmmmm ... I might be inclinded to say yes, but is there any reason it >> can't be NUL terminated (or terminated with the appropriate termination >> character for the character set)? > >Just since it is the usual way within the OS I'm trying to code. >NUL is like any other caracter valid within a string. Also, it >gieve me an disadvantage - instead of just adding '\0' I have >to calculate the string. > >> > > The valid Roman characters used are IVXLCDM >> > Is Space valid ? Romans did include them at will. >> I did not know that, but for this program no, spaces are not allowed. > >Ok. > >> > > > There are a few details which have been left out of the specification for >> > > > this task. >> > > > Does it require input validation? >> > > I think I specified that. The valid range of Roman numerals is 1 through >> > > 3,999 inclusive. The routine does have to check that and construct a >> > > special string ( "*" ) if the input is not in that range. >> > > > Is the binary input pure binary, or is it BCD? >> > > Okay, that might be a valid point, but it's pure binary, not BCD. > >> > Fine, you stated max input 3999, but to be checked, and you >> > stated binary, but in what format ? Half Word (16 Bit), >> > Word (32) or Double Word (64) ? > >> Uh, I was unaware that halfwords had a specific size (on the DEC Alpha, a >> half word would be 32 bits in size). > >Like Words, they are just machine dependant ... in a given 32 Bit CPU >a halfword is just 16 - so whats the input ? (in fact, I'll assume 32 Bit) > >> > To be transfered at a given location, or via a pointer, >> > or via register (attention, might again be processor specific). > >> Appropriate to the CPU or the situation. Obviously, a 6502 can't pass it >> in a single register, but there are other options. That's why I didn't >> specify how to pass the data in. > >:))) And why specifying a '\0' byte ? > >> > > I liked Sam's suggestion of ``printing to memory'' as a way to avoid the >> > > complications of I/O in this, and if I didn't make this clear that the >> > > conversion was to be stored in memory, I'm sorry. >> >> > Output, to a given location (pointer) or static buffer ? >> > Check for buffer length or asumption of an buffer, always big >> > enough ? (if you check the binary number you also have to check >> > the buffer (if given).) > >> Again, it's up to the programmer. But be prepared to justify your answers >> 8-) > >:)) > >> -spc (Welcome to the world of programming 8-) > >All simple, all the same, isn't it ? > >And again, more questions: >If I'm right at Megans description, she just include the next lower >digit when it comes to these subtraction rules, and your Algo seams >to be weak at the same point. Let me give an example: > >49 would be normaly coded as IL (always remember, it was kind of a >system to reduce writing as much as possible - there are even examples >where the number 248 is written CIIL) while Megan seams to code it as >XXXXIX - basicly wrong - or did I miss something ? I'm not realy >what one can call a DEC-Geek. > >So do we only have to supporte the one-less rule, or the rule >of one subtraction numeral - or the full possibility with the >goal to reduce writing to a max ? > >Gruss >H. > >Oh, BTW: this contest is exacty into the direction where we didn't >want to go - we are comparing algorythms and not CPUs - for a more >CPU dependant contest we need to fix the algo to use, so the difference >will reflect the differences in processor design and not into algo >design (of course there's more sex appeal in the my-algo-is-bether- >than-yours, than in the my-(what-ever-algo)-implementation-is-better). > >So I still go for the idea of implementing one algo as good as possible >for the different CPUs - more on Friday (I'm not full time available >until then). > > > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990420/6b3b8ef4/attachment.html From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Apr 20 18:58:19 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: New additions: Hero1 Message-ID: <2a1b65f.244e6e9b@aol.com> OK, so it's not the holy grail (apple lisa) , but it's close. Picked up a complete Hero1 with speech synth and arm in his own custom carrying box. it came complete with charger, cables, all schematics and manuals and some dos based compiler programs to write apps that can be downloaded to the robot via serial link. Also got a data book on all motorola chips and some robotics study courses as well as lots of handwritten notes by the original owner. Unfortunately, he doesnt work right. I think his motor drive may have to be rebuilt and although he did say "okay" once, his digital display is scrambled and he wont initialise. Gel cell batteries will have to be replaced since he's been sitting for at least 5 years. Will be a fun project and will get plenty of space on the upcoming computer museum website. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 20 19:04:31 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Power connectors In-Reply-To: <01BE8B20.9D5D62F0.steverob@hotoffice.com> (message from Steve Robertson on Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:26:20 -0400) References: <01BE8B20.9D5D62F0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <19990421000431.10999.qmail@brouhaha.com> Steve Robertson wrote: > In the early days, it was common for manufactures to use the device chassis > or frame as a conductor. They would tie the Neutral wire to the chassis > (under the assumption that the potential was near 0V) and save a few > pennies in the manufacturing process. The problem was, it was possible to > put the plug in the socket upside-down. This meant the chassis was tied to > the hot leg and you could get electrocution just touching the device. In > the 50's and 60's it was quite possible to get shocked by your TV by just > turning it on! Of course, it is no longer considered acceptable for devices to be made this way. They won't get UL listed; I'm not sure if there's any legal prohibition, but any manufacturer with half a clue would not make a product this way now due to product liability concerns. > Today, most devices have polarized plugs so that can't happen. Yes, but have you ever spent any time testing those polarized outlets? An appalling number of them are wired incorrectly. Counting on the polarization to make it safe is not a good bet. If you're not sure, get one of those outlet-checkers at your local hardware store or Radio Shack. The have three neon bulbs in a small housing with a three-prong plug, and will detect most of the common wiring faults. However, you have to be careful even with those. I've seen some of these checkers that are labelled wrong! (Whoever produced those *deserves* to be electrocuted.) > The neutral line should NEVER be fused. If that fuse happened to blow and > the one on the HOT(s) leg didn't, the device would still be hot (even with > a blown fuse). This would cause an unsafe condition. Which is one reason why you should never assume that just because the switch is off that there is no dangerous high voltage present in a power supply or the like. If you're *lucky*, everything might be wired correctly so that it's at neutral, and neutral might be close enough to the safety ground to be reasonably safe. But don't trust your life to luck. Unplug it and be sure. And remember, there can still be enough charge on capacitors to be dangerous, so you *still* have to be careful. Since neutral and ground are *only* tied together at the entrance (and this is very important!), at any given point that you might care to measure, neutral might have a non-trivial potential. This arises because the neutral is a current-carrying conductor, while ground is not, so the neutral line has resistive losses. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 20 19:13:01 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990421001301.11067.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > No. The US mains is 234V centre-tapped. It's not part of a 3-phase system > (at least not normally) Except in the sense that the incoming "single phase" power is derived from two out of three phases somewhere higher up in the distribution hierarchy. The utility company doesn't generate different "single phase" power for residential customers. From danburrows at mindspring.com Tue Apr 20 19:19:01 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: Power connectors Message-ID: <001001be8b8c$a9c62510$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> To help reduce the US power confusion I just hand scratched a US single phase power configuration from the pole transformer into the first breaker panel. All panels after the first one are not allowed to have the Neutral and Ground tied together. (Sub feed panels) Please ignore the horrible hand drawing I just want people to be safe. ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/power.gif Dan From danburrows at mindspring.com Tue Apr 20 19:30:51 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:23 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P Message-ID: <005b01be8b8e$dba568a0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >Tim, > >I should have qualified that as common residential and business circuits. >Sure it's possible to go to 60A, how many houses nomially have that? >(don't include mine). > >Allison > I have a few 50A 120 and 240v. Then to I have a 400A house service that I subfed 200A to my office / shop and then to the shed where the welder is. I even put a 100A panel on the wall behind the row of 7 6 foot racks for the test beds. It was cheaper and easier than putting all those Hubbell's on the wall. Dan From danburrows at mindspring.com Tue Apr 20 19:34:38 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P Message-ID: <005c01be8b8e$dc7b5640$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >Tony wrote: >> No. The US mains is 234V centre-tapped. It's not part of a 3-phase system >> (at least not normally) > >Except in the sense that the incoming "single phase" power is derived >from two out of three phases somewhere higher up in the distribution >hierarchy. The utility company doesn't generate different "single phase" >power for residential customers. It is taken from 1 hot (13 to 14KV) of the 3 phase grid. Dan From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Tue Apr 20 20:17:38 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P Message-ID: <990420211738.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> ><>that were clearly under 1.4kw. The codes are aimed at providing reasonabl ><>power. Here a 15A/115v is the nominal and 115V/20A is a max >< >I should have qualified that as common residential and business circuits. I would call 115V 30A a common business circuit; it's certainly exceedingly common on minicomputer power controllers. What else do folks plug the Twist-N-Locks on their DEC 861C power controllers into? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 20 20:15:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: Power connectors In-Reply-To: <19990421000431.10999.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 21, 99 00:04:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3522 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/b4fe5e88/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 20 20:16:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P In-Reply-To: <19990421001301.11067.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 21, 99 00:13:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 603 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/a4887861/attachment.ksh From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Apr 20 20:47:21 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: Power connectors References: <80256759.005F6C53.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <009501be8b98$e6c65500$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Wednesday, 21 April 1999 2:47 Subject: Re: Power connectors > > > >> >First, to get common names: > >> >Hot = one Phase > >> >Neutral = Protective Ground > >> >Ground = Ground (the starpoint on 3 phases connected to earth at the > >> 'generator') > > Similar in Oz. Active = 1 Phase (240vac 50hz wrt Neutral) Neutral = "cold" side of all 3 phases Earth = Ground. (tied to a stake driven into the ground at the customers site) I don't know what happens at the generator end. Normally domestic stuff is either 2 pin polarised plug (all our Mains plugs have angled flat pins, they can't be inserted the wrong way) ie active/neutral only, Double insulated, or 3 pin polarised, with chassis grounded. Fuse is invariably on the active side. Some tv's I have worked on are "hot" chassis which effectively gives around 1/2 mains voltage between chassis and ground. Not unsafe for the customer as the controls and antenna connectors etc are capacitor isolated, but can be a trap for techs if you don't have an isolating transformer handy. Cheers Geoff From ddameron at earthlink.net Tue Apr 20 17:54:49 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: Powerlines In-Reply-To: <199904202013.WAA12095@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <01BE8B47.4545E520.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990420175449.22a7991a@earthlink.net> At 10:14 PM 4/20/99 +1, Hans wrote: >> Since it is a simple transformer, the phases are 180 degrees out of phase >> (by definition). That's assuming a balanced resistive load. Of course, that >> could change under a heavy inductive or capacitive load but, that's an >> extreme and won't normally present a problem. > >Still not an argument against 2 phases from an 3~ signal. > To get 2 phases, you need more than 2 wires. (another reason for 3 phase). In the US the final distribution transformer, at least in residential areas has a primary of around 12kV (I remember this as some neon sign transformers step the main voltage back up to this level) connected with 2 wires to one of the 3 phases. The secondary is about 230 to 240 volts center tap, still single phase, of course as 180 degrees doesn't mean another phase. Buildings may have different intermediate voltages, as many require step down transformers within the building as even 240 volts from an external transformer(s) would be too much current for all the loads. -Dave From ddameron at earthlink.net Tue Apr 20 17:41:30 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: References: <80256759.005DF59D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990420174130.22a764dc@earthlink.net> At 03:28 PM 4/20/99 -0400, Allison wrote: >Correct, but the pulse that indicates the core switched is delayed in >time Hence the critical slice time. Core size affects this as does >the select current. > >> Rather than using steel nuts - which may be very inconsistent in their magnetic >> properties - would ferrite beads, as used for interference suppression, work? >> Or to they have too small a hysteresis like transformer steel? > >Actually the nuts have an adaquate hysteresis to make a demo core but it >would not work useably well. Ferrites used for beads have low >permability. But since they are available I'd try one and see. > >> Nice Description, Allison. I like it. > >Core is mysterious but when broken down the mechanism is easy enough to >understand. then you need to understand the interactions... ;) Neat. I looked in my "junk" collection and found some cores. One plastic box is labeled "Univac memory elements" and has a small sample of 3 size cores. The largest is about 1mm O.D. and the smallest is less than half that size. They look very fragile as the I.D. is almost as large as the O.D. The other is a "Indiana General 15 mill memory plane" I guess the cores are 15 mill diameter. There are 16 cores wired as a 4x4 plane. The wires are much smaller than 30 SWG (about 28 AWG). I would say much smaller than 50 (either) gauge, I need a magnifier just to see them. I didn't realize I had them, but this thread made me think of wiring a small demo plane (another project). -Dave > >Allison > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 20 22:21:53 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: DEC BC11A-15 Cable Message-ID: Am I correct that this is used to connect the UNIBUS backplane in one chassis to a UNIBUS backplane in another chassis? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 20 21:27:34 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <199904210227.AA01020@world.std.com> References: <199904201833.NAA27523@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <199904210231.VAA11510@garcon.laidbak.com> And just when exactly did an Altair become an "Apple Prototype"? Apparently, this means that a Model T is a "Ferrari Prototype"? Some people know just enough to be stupid. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From danburrows at mindspring.com Tue Apr 20 21:23:52 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: DEC BC11A-15 Cable Message-ID: <002801be8b9e$f046fbb0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >Am I correct that this is used to connect the UNIBUS backplane in one >chassis to a UNIBUS backplane in another chassis? Yes. Do you need any? I have several different lengths here. The -15 is the length in feet IIRC. Dan From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 20 22:43:46 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: UNIBUS Terminators Message-ID: Am I correct in assuming that a M9300 or a M9300-YA can not be substituted for a M9302? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 20 21:55:43 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: heads up; OSI Challenger 1P Message-ID: <199904210255.AA03944@world.std.com> Message-ID: >>Am I correct that this is used to connect the UNIBUS backplane in one >>chassis to a UNIBUS backplane in another chassis? > > >Yes. Do you need any? I have several different lengths here. The -15 is >the length in feet IIRC. > >Dan No, I need to pull one out of my PDP-11/44's backplane. Wanted to make sure it was what I thought it was. Of course as might be guessed from my post that followed this one, I'm missing a terminator for the backplane. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 20 21:56:06 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <199904210256.AA04235@world.std.com> Has anyone ever seen a pointer on a Mac start to twitch? Mine seems to have started jiggleing back and forth slightly. Really disconcerting. Any ideas on if this is the mouse, or the machine :^( It seems to have something to do with how the cord is twisted, so I'm suspecting that the wires are getting a little frayed :^( When I smooth the cable out, it seems to stop. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 20 23:46:06 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 CPU Configuration Message-ID: I've finally got power for my PDP-11/44 so I'm getting ready to start testing it out, and as a result have made a careful diagram of the CPU prior to pulling the cards so I can test the Power Supply. It took some doing, but I found Tony's message from June 10th of last year telling me how to test it :^) In doing up the diagram I've discovered a few problems. I'd appreciate it if someone that knows what they're looking at could take a look a the diagram though. The diagram is here: http://zane.brouhaha.com/healyzh/images/pdp1144cards.GIF I realize I'm missing M9302 UNIBUS Terminator. Slot 15 is actually the gap between the two backplanes in the cabinet, and Slots 25-29 don't exist. I suspect I need "Grant Continuity Cards" in Slots 10-12 since I don't have memory in them. Is there anything else that I'm missing, or does anyone see any problems with this configuration? This is the configuration that the machine came in, except it was missing the RAM and DELUA, I've added both where they had originally been according to the diagram on the CPU cover, except I'm not sure if there were 1 or 4 RAM cards originally. Pardon such basic questions, but this is the first time I've worked on a UNIBUS system, I'm used to working on my Q-Bus systems. I did get one pleasant surprise, I'd thought I was missing the FP11. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From rickb at pail.enginet.com Tue Apr 20 23:00:06 1999 From: rickb at pail.enginet.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: Board ID (Omnibus PDP8)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004201be8bab$70daab80$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> Tony Wuell wrote, regarding an unidentified OMNIBUS PDP8 Board > > There is one DEC board that matches that description - the M837 'Memory > extension and time share control' (basically the logic to give you a 15 > bit address bus, etc). I've just found the DEC printset, and it uses : > 7 380 (bus receiver) > 9 7400 > 5 8881 (bus driver) > 5 8271 (latches/SR?) > 3 8235 (AOI gates with common selects) > 2 8266 (Mux) > 1 8251 (3->8 decoder) > 1 74H74 > 1 7474 > 2 7420 > 5 7410 > 3 7404 > 1 74H00 > 5 384 (Bus receivers again, non-inverting) > 4 314 (7 input NOR gate with odd thresholds) > > (54 chips total, I think) > This board has many of the same chips, and has 54 chips. I know that there are more than 1 74H00 on there...I can count at least three on the mystery board. It *seems* quite similar. Perhaps it is some 'third party' type of memory 'bank' control similar to the M837? I'll need to get out a magnifying glass (my old eyes just can't read the numbers off the chips like I used to be able to), and do a complete chip inventory on the board. > > > > It doesn't seem complex enough to have much functionality, and it's > > definitely > > not some kind of I/O board, as there are no ins or outs other than the > > OMNIBUS. > > Could it be a clone of the above DEC board? Is there an M837 in > the machine > anywhere? The mystery board came separate from my PDP8e, which DOES have an M837 in it, along with 2 8K core stacks, a 3rd 8K worth of solid state memory, EAE, RK8-E w/3 RK05's, PT8-E w/HS Punched tape reader/punch and three M8650's. Curiouser and curiouser... Rick Bensene From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue Apr 20 23:01:41 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: driving prices down? Message-ID: <199904210401.AAA16724@platy.cs.unc.edu> I just had an idea. One of the things pushing up e-bay prices is the publication of the high bids of past auctions. The logic for sellers is something like, since the previous one sold for this much, I should expect at least as much for this one. What if we kept (and publicized) a record of asking prices for the things that did *not* sell? Maybe buyers would look at that, and use similar logic to avoid bidding any higher than that? Bill. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 21 00:15:15 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: driving prices down? In-Reply-To: <199904210401.AAA16724@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: >I just had an idea. One of the things pushing up e-bay prices >is the publication of the high bids of past auctions. The logic >for sellers is something like, since the previous one sold for >this much, I should expect at least as much for this one. > >What if we kept (and publicized) a record of asking prices for >the things that did *not* sell? Maybe buyers would look at that, >and use similar logic to avoid bidding any higher than that? > > Bill. But for every ten items that don't sell at X price, one does sell for even higher. That's what they'll look at, or hope for. Besides how many of them care if they sell it? Some of them, would sooner scrap it than sell it for less than they wanted :^( It's a good idea, but there are drawbacks, including getting it publicized. Though I guess you could always auction the list off :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Tue Apr 20 23:20:00 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Wirehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: Has anybody heard from Wirehead? In-Reply-To: <199904150009.RAA24737@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >Hate to use the list for this purpose but >he doesn't seem to be responding to >any email lately. Does anybody know >why? Working massive overtime. Refinancing loads of debt. Dealing with an unexpected surgery. Everything that anyone has sent me money for was shipped out as of today. It took me a while but I have to deal with first priorities first. Nobody has ever sent me money and then didn't receive the promised item eventually. I'm alive and kicking though. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Apr 20 20:50:19 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: References: from "Doug Spence" at Apr 20, 99 04:19:30 am Message-ID: <199904210550.BAA20700@smtp.interlog.com> On 20 Apr 99 at 19:23, Tony Duell wrote: > > I think more can be learned from old machines (of all types) than new > > ones. > > I will agree with that. I challenge anyone to repair a PDP11 or a PDP8 or > a PERQ, or a ... and _not_ learn something about computer operation. > Ditto for programming those machines in machine code/microcode. > > And you'll learn more about radio from the insides of an AA5 that you > will from one of the modern sets with all the electronics hidden inside > chips. > Out of curiousity was the term for the configuration of the common tube mantle-radio, "All-American 5", used in the UK and Europe or is this an expression you've acquired from Yanks. > > YEs. My parents (both of them) would try to fix things when they broke. > So I grew up in house where things were being repaired. So I couldn't > fail to learn something from this, and (even if I say so myself) learn to > fix even more complex problems. > > -tony > My mothers purchase of 10 failed washing machines and a box of Audel books at an auction sale was my inception into this world when I was a teenager. I had always liked to tinker but applied study and effort resulted in a profit of almost $400 to us, which was a considerable amount in the early 50s. Still have those books. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Apr 20 20:50:18 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: Power connectors In-Reply-To: <199904201631.SAA00737@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <00b501be8b45$4eb2af50$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: <199904210550.BAA20721@smtp.interlog.com> On 20 Apr 99 at 18:32, Hans Franke wrote: > > >First, to get common names: > > >Hot = one Phase > > >Neutral = Protective Ground > > >Ground = Ground (the starpoint on 3 phases connected to earth at the > > 'generator') > > > That explains the confusion. In the US: > > Hot is one phase and in single phase systems you can and do have 2 hots. > > Neutral is what you are refering to as ground. The starpoint for both > > single and 3 phase. > > Ground is the protective / frame ground. > > Sorry, just my translation problem, I had to assign names where no > dictionary could help me, And Neutral = Protective Ground vs Ground > seemed to be logical - sorry. > > > The protective ground (ground in US codes) is not allowed to normally carry > > any current. > > Same over here. > First of all it should be called NA standards as Canada is also part of the NA grid and has TMK slightly more stringent standards. The Generating station transmits through the Bulk Transmission System at 500kv to a regional Transformer station which retransmits at 230kv via the Regional Supply System to a local Transformer station which then supplies Municipal and local distribution systems at 600v. Typical residential and small commercial supply is then provided with 240v single phase. Larger commercial or industrial supply is 3phase 208v or 600v measured phase to phase. As an aside, the large mobile generators seen on movie sets generate 3 phase 208v because of lighting power demands. The correct terminology here is Line, Neutral, and Isolated Ground. equivalent to the red or black, white, and green wires. Because of fluctuations in supply the neutral to line configuration is referred to as 110/120 while the line to line one is 220/240. Most higher-power or supply critical 110/120 devices use the 3prong plug. Cooking ranges, dryers , and some air-conditioners use the 220/240 configuration and now must in most jurisdictions use 4prong plugs. Usually red, black. white, and green wiring. Where problems arise is that most older wiring does not comply to the new(relatively) specs regarding grounding, much less the keyed plugs. There are many houses still with 2 wire systems and an adapter called a "cheater" is available in most hardware stores to circumvent the 3 prong grounded plug. It has a ground wire to attach to the faceplate screw, which most people ignore. Even that supposes that the switch receptical is properly grounded via the coax cable used in many older installations. I have also seen 3-wire 220 without any ground in many older houses. > > >Second, do I understand that US appliances got fuses on both wires > > >and both are switched ? > > On 240 volt equipment yes. > Not always. > Ahh ja - we also use fuses in each 'Hot' wire - so if you have a > 3~ installation, 3 fuses are to be installed _and_ they have to > be tied (mechanical), so if one blows all 3 will go off. > > > >Over here in Germany only one wire is > > >switched and protected with a fuse, althrough it is not defined > > >which one is the 'hot' line, since our connector is symetrical > > >- there is no way to insert the plug in a way where the Hot and > > >the Ground side is defined - Our plug isn't inherited from the > > >DC times, but rather a new design when 220V AC became standard > > >in the 30s, to fit the needs of (and only of) AC Eq. > > > The US did not used to make a distinction between hot and neutral until > > about 30 years ago when they added the "protective" ground pin. Now they > > are keyed. If you look closely at a receptacle, one blade is wider - > > neutral, The narrower blade is Hot and the round pin is protective ground. > > Some "equipment" uses only 2 wires. The blades and often one is larger to > > assure that it is polarized correctly. These polarized plugs have come into > > common usage in the last 20 years. > I think the keyed plugs have more to do with modern equipment needs such as X-10 (? the control system) ,than safety or power quality concerns. > Strange, but common - I don't know any reason why the system has > to be keyed, I always assumed the US development of keyed plugs > was triggered by old DC systems (since in DC Eq. it is necersarry > to know the orientation), but not a new addition. Strange, we NA switched from Edisons DC systems as in NYC to Tesla/Westinghouse AC early on due to the better power transmission over the greater distances occasioned in NA. > dropped all orientationwhen switching to AC (with Protective > Ground). Could anyone give give a reason why the system has > to be keyed _IF_ a Protective Ground is included (other than > define the Protective Ground pin) ? Because, without Protective > Ground a definition of Neutral is essential, but with, no longer. > I'm realy courious, since this is the kind of technology I'm > originated - I studied Starkstromelektronik (Power Electronics) > after (high)school. > > Thanks > Hans > There also has to be a differentation made between safety ground and signal ground. AC power ground is generally only at low impedance at low frequencies. Also if signal and power ground is connected at more than one point, a ground loop can be created as I'm sure you're aware. One of the differences between the Canadian Electrical Safety Code and it's US counterpart the National Electrical Code is that Isolated Ground circuits must bypass the panel board and be connected to "Earth Ground" at supply entry. This avoids any interaction with the supply panel. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Apr 21 00:59:37 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: <199904210550.BAA20700@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Apr 21, 1999 01:50:19 AM Message-ID: <199904210559.XAA11927@calico.litterbox.com> > Out of curiousity was the term for the configuration of > the common tube mantle-radio, "All-American 5", used in the UK and > Europe or is this an expression you've acquired from Yanks. I've seen it used in the US press (albiet magazines about old radios) so I suspect it's from here in the US. If memory serves it's from a 5 tube set (as near as I can tell, very like a chipset today) made by one or more of the major tube manufacturers that had all the components for a simple, inexpensive superhet radio. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Apr 21 01:17:16 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <199904210617.CAA17294@platy.cs.unc.edu> On 19 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: ] It's true that may be more interesting when you have different vehicles, but ] if you're trying to determine which of two is faster, don't you focus on ] those two? Having lots of variations in the hardware only tends to muddy ] the water. Obviously, some of us care about vehicles other than those two. Doesn't muddy _my_ waters one bit. :-P I, for one, am interested in processor capabilities independent of video/disk/etc gorp. Roman numerals isn't going to be a thorough comparison, but it's better than nothing, and small enough to be fun. If this is still going on in a month or two, maybe I'll write an entry myself. As it is now, my schedule barely allows me to keep up with all the stuff you guys are writing! And then, later the same day, regarding my suggestion about noting the relative ages of processors when comparing their results, he wrote: ] It's pretty hard to imagine how a limitation like your suggestion would ] apply. Newer processors addressed weaknesses in the older ones. One of ] those was ease of programming. In some cases, e.g. the 6809, the processor ] was designed with a regular instruction set and lots of addressing modes so ] as to make generating code easy. It didn't necessarily make it faster. I ] don't know how elegant such code will ultimately turn out to be. If you want to get a handle on which processors were really better than others performance-wise, you look at the best they can do on some specific problems. Granted, the results may not be easy to interpret because of varying environmental characteristics. Welcome to Earth. Nothing is simple here. Obviously, if the 6809 loses to some older processor, its adherents can still claim ease-of-coding as a benefit. But it would still be interesting to know if it could regularly get whomped by a measly, pathetic, sad-excuse-for-a-processor like the 6502. :-) :-) :-) :-) My suggestion was not meant as any sort of limitation, just my take on what kind of result would be interesting; one way of interpreting the results. If an older processor doesn't do as well as the newer one, well, we expected that. But if an older one outperforms a newer one, there is something worth exploring there, a lesson to be learned about an improvement really wasn't. Bill. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 21 01:20:44 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: driving prices down? In-Reply-To: <199904210401.AAA16724@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > I just had an idea. One of the things pushing up e-bay prices > is the publication of the high bids of past auctions. The logic > for sellers is something like, since the previous one sold for > this much, I should expect at least as much for this one. > > What if we kept (and publicized) a record of asking prices for > the things that did *not* sell? Maybe buyers would look at that, > and use similar logic to avoid bidding any higher than that? Good thinking. Make it so, Number One! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Apr 21 01:21:29 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: Ancient disk controllers Message-ID: <199904210621.CAA17314@platy.cs.unc.edu> On 19 Apr 1999, that Cool Frood ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: ] Yes. I have the Signetics data sheets for the 8x300, 8T31, etc. They're ] in an old Mullard/Philips data book which also covers the 68000. I recently scored a Signetics data book with 8x305 data in it, along with a Fairchild databook (F8) and an RCA databook (1802). It's weird, I'm almost as happy about it as if I had gotten machines based on those processors! Cool Beans! Bill. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Apr 21 01:29:17 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: Repairing core Message-ID: <199904210629.CAA17341@platy.cs.unc.edu> On 19 Apr 1999, none other than Sellam Ismail himself wrote: ] I don't see what the big attraction to a core plane is. You stick it on ] your wall. Whoopee! Look at me, I have a core plane on my wall. Big ] fricken deal. Nobody even knows what it is anyway. From afar it looks ] like a black square. Closer up it looks like a piece of a window screen. ] ] Unfortunately, my rant is not going to stop the lame-o's selling it from ] hyping it up as some cool collectable, and it's not going to stop the ] techno-wannabees from buying it to stick on their wall. So what kind of wall hanging is more appropriate for a geek? Besides, where the heck am I going to find the rest of a Univac to plug it into? I like the "bait" theory and all, but... And too, I'd wager that most of your collection is of the "look at that" variety. You can't tell me you actually _use_ more than a handful of them. I've seen your schedule, remember? And let's not drag bubble memory into it, eh? Nyah, nyah, and nyah. Bill. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 21 01:39:09 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: Repairing core In-Reply-To: <199904210629.CAA17341@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > On 19 Apr 1999, none other than Sellam Ismail himself wrote: > ] I don't see what the big attraction to a core plane is. You stick it on > ] your wall. Whoopee! Look at me, I have a core plane on my wall. Big > ] fricken deal. Nobody even knows what it is anyway. From afar it looks > ] like a black square. Closer up it looks like a piece of a window screen. > ] > ] Unfortunately, my rant is not going to stop the lame-o's selling it from > ] hyping it up as some cool collectable, and it's not going to stop the > ] techno-wannabees from buying it to stick on their wall. > > So what kind of wall hanging is more appropriate for a geek? I took the cover off an old, dead MFM drive and hung it on my office wall back in 1994 or so. I took it with me through several office moves, and took it with me when the company closed down. It now hangs in my warehouse. Its a great conversation piece. Anyone who sees it asks "What's that?" Its fun to tinker with. It has moveable parts. You can spin the platters and move the head back and forth. Whee. A coreplane just sits there. > Besides, where the heck am I going to find the rest of a Univac > to plug it into? I like the "bait" theory and all, but... There's one out there, waiting to be discovered, but I'm going to find it before you. > And too, I'd wager that most of your collection is of the "look at > that" variety. You can't tell me you actually _use_ more than a > handful of them. I've seen your schedule, remember? Well, currently? Yes. But within a year my collection will be made available for public utlitization. I'm opening the doors of my warehouse as a public resource center for the study of "obsolete" computing artifacts. I'll have more details once they're relevant. > And let's not drag bubble memory into it, eh? I've got a box of them, so selling off one here or there to fund my operations isn't going to deplete the supply. If anyone truly NEEDS a bubble memory module then I'd be happy to help them out. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Apr 21 01:51:40 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis "Re: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?" (Apr 20, 16:04) References: <4.1.19990420160010.03cdf300@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <9904210751.ZM9858@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 20, 16:04, Chuck McManis wrote: > I'm not sure I parsed this. At my local hardware store the nuts were made > of Zinc (not steel) and but the washers were made of "soft iron" which I > thought meant there was a _lower_ carbon content than "steel" washers. (The > washers are designed to be compliant whereas the nuts are quite hard) Zinc isn't a hard metal and it's only weakly ferromagnetic (doesn't stick to a magnet). The nuts you found are zinc-plated steel, probably what we call BZP (bright zinc plated). Soft iron sometimes has quite a high carbon content, and a very variable silicon content (which affects its magnetic permeability). The composition of "soft iron" varies quite a lot, whereas although different types of steel have different compositions, the composition of any given type is fairly standard (and in some cases very precisely controlled), and usually quite low in silicon. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Apr 20 22:56:36 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: <199904210559.XAA11927@calico.litterbox.com> References: <199904210550.BAA20700@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Apr 21, 1999 01:50:19 AM Message-ID: <199904210756.DAA03715@smtp.interlog.com> On 20 Apr 99 at 23:59, Jim Strickland wrote: > > Out of curiousity was the term for the configuration of > > the common tube mantle-radio, "All-American 5", used in the UK and > > Europe or is this an expression you've acquired from Yanks. > > I've seen it used in the US press (albiet magazines about old radios) so > I suspect it's from here in the US. If memory serves it's from a 5 tube > set (as near as I can tell, very like a chipset today) made by one or more > of the major tube manufacturers that had all the components for a simple, > inexpensive superhet radio. > > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, the expression is definitely american. The AA5 were the 12ba6, 12be6, 35w4, 50b5 and the 12at6. British and Euro names for the same tubes could be different but basicly the same circuit with occasional variants or additions. RCA could have originated it but everyone and his brother put out sets using it Kind of like the IBM clones. (in order to get back OT). ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 21 03:37:57 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: old data books (was Re: Ancient disk controllers) In-Reply-To: <199904210621.CAA17314@platy.cs.unc.edu> (message from Bill Yakowenko on Wed, 21 Apr 1999 02:21:29 -0400 (EDT)) References: <199904210621.CAA17314@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <19990421083757.13468.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bill wrote: > I recently scored a Signetics data book with 8x305 data in it, along > with a Fairchild databook (F8) and an RCA databook (1802). It's weird, Speaking of which, sometime back I failed to convince a surplus to sell me a really old RCA databook which contained information on the two-chip predecessor of the 1802, which went by the numbers CDP1801R and CDP1801S if memory servers. Anyone have the book or data sheets? I'd love to get copies. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 21 06:48:40 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <199904202213.AA03077@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199904210949.LAA06453@horus.mch.sni.de> > >And again, more questions: > >If I'm right at Megans description, she just include the next lower > >digit when it comes to these subtraction rules, and your Algo seams > >to be weak at the same point. Let me give an example: > >49 would be normaly coded as IL (always remember, it was kind of a > >system to reduce writing as much as possible - there are even examples > >where the number 248 is written CIIL) while Megan seams to code it as > >XXXXIX - basicly wrong - or did I miss something ? I'm not realy > >what one can call a DEC-Geek. > My code would produce XLIX, not XXXXIX... Sorry, you're right I did only take one loop ... > I guess I'm unclear as to whether any numeral can be used to reduce > the value of a higher, subsequent numeral. > Using your explanation, 1999 would be MIM, instead of the more > standard (as I have seen it) MCMXCIX. Back, when the system was developed (and almost until recent days) Writing was a time consuming thing - and cost a lot of resources (space on coins and seals, paper, ink, etc), so the whole system was designed to save resources - call it a kind of compression algorythm - instead of writing 5 strokes, just write two, different placed and further, 4 strokes could be replaced by 3 when using the subtraction rule. Today we are most exopsed to roman numerals from movies (and newer productions) where a) space is no longer a consiferation, b) Numbers with _more_ Numerals look more impressive and c) correct writing isn't exactly the main goal. > Also, what's to stop > someone from writing it in a form employing the vinculum: > __ > III For classic Roman Numerals, noone, but within this contest the Numerals have been restricted :) (BTW: this x1000 rule is the orign why we put a '.' (or ',' in the US) between each 3 digits) > >So do we only have to supporte the one-less rule, or the rule > >of one subtraction numeral - or the full possibility with the > >goal to reduce writing to a max ? > So long as someone can clearly explain the rules to what can > be subtracted from what, I'll implement it... (kind of like > requiring a spec). Without it, I can only go on what I can > find documented in the encyclopedia... THats exactly my point - tofulfill the contest we needan exact description of the result - it's the usual thing - the customer gives an unclear description, besed on a lot of 'you-know' termns and when we do the software he is shocked by the result :) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Apr 21 04:49:12 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: driving prices down? In-Reply-To: <199904210401.AAA16724@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: >I just had an idea. One of the things pushing up e-bay prices >is the publication of the high bids of past auctions. The logic >for sellers is something like, since the previous one sold for >this much, I should expect at least as much for this one. > >What if we kept (and publicized) a record of asking prices for >the things that did *not* sell? Maybe buyers would look at that, >and use similar logic to avoid bidding any higher than that? If you want to drive prices down, go and hunt for the items of interest and sell them cheap. Ebay is just supply and demand. I just sold half a dozen items, and oversupply drove the price of three of them to levels where I would not have accepted the final bids as offers outside of the auction framework. As for the list of not sellers, many people list items at a price very close to the selling price they want, and seem pleased with perhaps as little as half to a quarter of the items selling in a given auction cycle (ie I have 20 widgets, every other day I list one for $9.99 (15/month), only 1/3 sell in each cycle (5/month), so it takes 4 months to sell them all). These are often commodity items where people only look on eBay etc. when they really need them, and wouldn't buy otherwise unless the price was much lower. For example I might have 100 SCSI cables. In an absolute auction (zero starting bids) some days they would sell for $1 each, and other days, when a person really needs one, they might sell for more than $10. If I list them with $9.99 first bid amounts most will not sell, but some will, and eventually all. In my experience NOTHING rational will keep an end user who needs something from bidding up the price. From jruschme at exit109.com Wed Apr 21 06:38:10 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: "All-American Five" In-Reply-To: <199904210756.DAA03715@smtp.interlog.com> from Lawrence Walker at "Apr 21, 99 03:56:36 am" Message-ID: <199904211138.HAA03876@crobin.home.org> > On 20 Apr 99 at 23:59, Jim Strickland wrote: > > > > Out of curiousity was the term for the configuration of > > > the common tube mantle-radio, "All-American 5", used in the UK and > > > Europe or is this an expression you've acquired from Yanks. > > > > I've seen it used in the US press (albiet magazines about old radios) so > > I suspect it's from here in the US. If memory serves it's from a 5 tube > > set (as near as I can tell, very like a chipset today) made by one or more > > of the major tube manufacturers that had all the components for a simple, > > inexpensive superhet radio. > > Oh, the expression is definitely american. The AA5 were the 12ba6, 12be6, > 35w4, 50b5 and the 12at6. British and Euro names for the same tubes could be > different but basicly the same circuit with occasional variants or additions. > RCA could have originated it but everyone and his brother put out sets using it > Kind of like the IBM clones. (in order to get back OT). The AA5 was, in short, a reference design which was implemented and marketed, more or less without changes, by quite a number of big and small firms. Since it was a reference design, the more OT examples would probably be: Tandy CoCo 1 / Tato Dragon (both based on 6809 reference design) WD8003 and NE1000 Ethernet boards (The relevant NSC chip has reference designs for both a memory-mapped and a port-mapped implementation. The 8003 is essentially the former and the NE1000 is essentiall the latter.) <<>> From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Apr 21 06:51:10 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: "All-American Five" In-Reply-To: <199904211138.HAA03876@crobin.home.org> from John Ruschmeyer at "Apr 21, 1999 7:38:10 am" Message-ID: <199904211151.HAA03273@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > Since it was a reference design, the more OT examples would probably be: > > Tandy CoCo 1 / Tato Dragon (both based on 6809 reference design) > > WD8003 and NE1000 Ethernet boards (The relevant NSC chip has > reference designs for both a memory-mapped and a port-mapped > implementation. The 8003 is essentially the former and > the NE1000 is essentiall the latter.) > > <<>> The idea of a reference design becoming an industry standard's got me wondering. I know the NEx000 and WD8003 were cases of that. The only other case I know like this was the WD1001/WD1002 which became the industry standard for hard disk controllers in the ST506 days. The WD datasheets pretty much gave you everything you needed for the controller. I can't think of anything else like this in the PC area. (Intel didn't give you a reference design for the 80386 to build a clone -- although they made a large number of the chips available). Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From foxvideo at wincom.net Wed Apr 21 07:00:00 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: Apple 1 auction In-Reply-To: <199904201859.NAA27671@trailingedge.com> References: <199904201848.SAA02983@thorin.cs.umn.edu> <199904201833.NAA27523@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990421080000.007a22a0@mail.wincom.net> At 02:03 PM 4/20/1999 -0500, you wrote: >On 20 Apr 99, at 13:48, Lawrence LeMay wrote: >> Let me know if they actually sell it for 40 big ones... I can always >> have them sell my Sun Microsystems model 1/100U "prototype'... Hmm, >> maybe I can convince them that the U means something important... >> Quick, someone with a thesaurus look up a word starting with U that >> means either Prototype, Rare, or Java... > >Rare - Uncommon, unusual > > > >----- >David Williams - Computer Packrat >dlw@trailingedge.com >http://www.trailingedge.com > > How about "Unique"? Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 21 09:03:28 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <199904210949.LAA06453@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <199904202213.AA03077@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199904211204.OAA26424@horus.mch.sni.de> > > >And again, more questions: > > >If I'm right at Megans description, she just include the next lower > > >digit when it comes to these subtraction rules, and your Algo seams > > >to be weak at the same point. Let me give an example: > > >49 would be normaly coded as IL (always remember, it was kind of a > > >system to reduce writing as much as possible - there are even examples > > >where the number 248 is written CIIL) while Megan seams to code it as > > >XXXXIX - basicly wrong - or did I miss something ? I'm not realy > > >what one can call a DEC-Geek. > > I guess I'm unclear as to whether any numeral can be used to reduce > > the value of a higher, subsequent numeral. > > Using your explanation, 1999 would be MIM, instead of the more > > standard (as I have seen it) MCMXCIX. >[...compression ideas of Roman Numerals...] While out for lunch, I've seen a light ... erh ... I've seen where Megan took the impression that the Roman system is kind of a BCD like system (or better RCD :) - each decimal digit is encoded using Roman Numerals (with an inclusion of the digit position) - but that was never the system - position dependant coding (like our arabic/indic system) was alien to the Numeral system. Maybe some decimal adjusted (DAA) persons where building the examples she is refering. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 21 09:20:29 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: driving prices down? In-Reply-To: <199904210401.AAA16724@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <199904211221.OAA29075@horus.mch.sni.de> > I just had an idea. One of the things pushing up e-bay prices > is the publication of the high bids of past auctions. The logic > for sellers is something like, since the previous one sold for > this much, I should expect at least as much for this one. > What if we kept (and publicized) a record of asking prices for > the things that did *not* sell? Maybe buyers would look at that, > and use similar logic to avoid bidding any higher than that? There are still to things to consider a) the buyer - if the buyer is willing to pay, nobody can stop him b) the seller - if you present a seller 10 low prices and 1 high, he still goes for the higher one - man is an optimistic creature :9 Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From at258 at osfn.org Wed Apr 21 07:54:49 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <199904210256.AA04235@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > Those are about the size of the 8E cores. > > <15 mill diameter. There are 16 cores wired as a 4x4 plane. The wires are > > Big fat ones... not really. Those planes would be easy to drive and > understand. that would be one I'd love to try. > > <(either) gauge, I need a magnifier just to see them. > > I'd have guessed thinner than #40. > > Allison > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Wed Apr 21 08:12:25 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: 1802 data sheets: was old data books Message-ID: <990421091225.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> >Speaking of which, sometime back I failed to convince a surplus to sell >me a really old RCA databook which contained information on the two-chip >predecessor of the 1802, which went by the numbers CDP1801R and CDP1801S >if memory servers. > >Anyone have the book or data sheets? I'd love to get copies. Hmm, this doesn't help you much, but I did a bit of poking around, and here's what I came up with: Harris, the current producer of the 1802, has the following documents online: Application notes: AN6565 Design of Clock Generators for Use with COSMAC Microprocessor CDP1802 http://www.semi.harris.com/data/an/an6/an6565/ CMOS CPU Data sheets: CDP1802A \ CDP1802AC| http://www.semi.harris.com/data/fn/fn1/fn1305/ CDP1802BC/ High-Reliability 8-bit CMOS Processor data sheets: CDP1802AC/3 http://www.semi.harris.com/data/fn/fn1/fn1441/ I briefly paged through the above data sheets to see if they might have file numbers for any of the 1801 data sheets, but didn't see any. It was interesting to see that at least some of these classic parts are now available in PLCC's (I suppose this is the modern equivalent of the Flat-Pack, roughly speaking.) If you want to continue the search further, Harris has online data sheets for much of the CDP18XX series (including the classic 1802 interface and memory parts), and maybe one of these will have a file number for an 1801 data sheet. After you get a file number, you can usually have the folks at Harris fax the data sheet to you. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Apr 21 08:30:23 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: Repairing core Message-ID: <19990421133023.14687.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bill Yakowenko wrote: > So what kind of wall hanging is more appropriate for a geek? I have, mounted on a board over the door, a slide rule entitled "In Case Of Emergency". It was my father's when he was in college. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Wed Apr 21 08:56:30 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 CPU Configuration Message-ID: <990421095630.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> >This is the configuration that the machine came in, except it was missing >the RAM and DELUA, I've added both where they had originally been according >to the diagram on the CPU cover, except I'm not sure if there were 1 or 4 >RAM cards originally. > >Pardon such basic questions, but this is the first time I've worked on a >UNIBUS system, I'm used to working on my Q-Bus systems. Speaking from decades of experience, you *do not* put a Unibus machine together in a big configuration, especially from mix-and-match used parts, and get it to work. You go down to the most basic configuration possible, and then add parts one at a time, testing as you go. I'd recommend that anyone in a situation similar to yours strip the machine down to a single system unit (i.e. pull the M9202 linking the backplane segments together and put a terminator in slot 14), with a single memory board and a single disk-like peripheral, then work their way up. Of course, you need a terminator before you can do any of this, and preferably a few spare grant continuity cards (but we'll make sure these shortcomings are fixed shortly!) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 21 09:53:44 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: old data books (was Re: Ancient disk controllers) In-Reply-To: <19990421083757.13468.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199904210621.CAA17314@platy.cs.unc.edu> <199904210621.CAA17314@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990421095344.2797d0ba@intellistar.net> Eric, No data books but I saw some 1801 in some chip pulls yesterday. Do you want me to try and get them? Joe At 08:37 AM 4/21/99 -0000, you wrote: >Bill wrote: >> I recently scored a Signetics data book with 8x305 data in it, along >> with a Fairchild databook (F8) and an RCA databook (1802). It's weird, > >Speaking of which, sometime back I failed to convince a surplus to sell >me a really old RCA databook which contained information on the two-chip >predecessor of the 1802, which went by the numbers CDP1801R and CDP1801S >if memory servers. > >Anyone have the book or data sheets? I'd love to get copies. > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 21 10:07:23 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: Counting keystrokes In-Reply-To: <199904202117.XAA14484@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <19990321012214.1366.qmail@brouhaha.com> <000701be7338$69475d40$10bb6420@barrysp2> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990421100723.23473690@intellistar.net> At 11:18 PM 4/20/99 +1, you wrote: >> > Believe it or not, the most common use of keeping keystrokes was for >> > employee evaluation. I remember weekly postings of graphs of >> > "keystrokes/hour" in data entry and word processing departments, with a >> > weekly "prize" [nominal value] for the "best" data entry operator of the >> > week. > >> Does it matter *which* keystrokes they are? In particular, does backspace >> count? > >> If a business activity doesn't have any better metric than keystrokes, >> is it even worth doing? > >Never forgett thet there hav been jobs where just keying in >data is the goal (or are they still around) ? Yes, but counting keystrokes is still a common metric even for professional work. Martin Marietta still uses it to "evaluate" their engineers. Been there, put up with that shit and glad I'm out of it! Joe From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 21 09:11:16 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: 1802 data sheets: was old data books In-Reply-To: <990421091225.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > If you want to continue the search further, Harris has online data > sheets for much of the CDP18XX series (including the classic 1802 > interface and memory parts), and maybe one of these will have a file > number for an 1801 data sheet. After you get a file number, you can > usually have the folks at Harris fax the data sheet to you. I have full 1802 docs from back when the elf article was published. The 1801 series was a less dense (hence teo chips) version of the 1802 and was discontinued with the advent of the 1802 back around '76. Harris never supplied the 1801 and was a late supplier of the 1802. Allison From rmeenaks at olf.com Wed Apr 21 09:12:59 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: Connecting CSA's Transputer Education Kit to an Inmos B008 References: Message-ID: <371DDCEA.D401D768@olf.com> > A transputer link is a 5*1 connector (with one pin missing), but there's > also a 5*1 'system' connector (2 pins missing) that carries > reset/error/analyse. > > After looking at the specs of the TEK, it turns out I need to connect some resistors between the two boards. I forgot to bring the specs with me, so I don't have the diagram. > > The B008 (I have one) has (as you know) a DC37 connector on it, but the > signals are just transputer links and 'system' signals. There's a little > board, commonly called a 'hedgehog' that plugs into this DC37 and which > carries the right 5*1 connectors for the links, etc. > > I'm pretty sure I have the pinout of the DC37 -- yes, here we are... > > THe basic architecture of the board is a 'pipeline' of up to 10 TRAMs. > Link 2 of each TRAM goes to link 1 of the next one along, and link 1 of > the first RAM goes to the on-board T222. > > Link 0 of the first TRAM goes to a C012 on the board. > > Links 0 and 3 of all the TRAMs (apart from the first TRAM link 0) go to a > C004 linkswitch. And there's also some logic for the system services. > > Do you have the development/IQ systems databook? It's all in there.. > I have the specs for the B008, but it doesn't mention anything about the 5*1 connector at all. The pinouts for the DC37 is a bit different from the TEKs pinouts. I will get more info tonight. Thanks Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Wed Apr 21 09:22:59 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:24 2005 Subject: 1802 data sheets: was old data books Message-ID: <990421102259.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> >> If you want to continue the search further, Harris has online data >> sheets for much of the CDP18XX series (including the classic 1802 >> interface and memory parts), and maybe one of these will have a file >> number for an 1801 data sheet. After you get a file number, you can >> usually have the folks at Harris fax the data sheet to you. >I have full 1802 docs from back when the elf article was published. Good - if you can find some RCA file numbers for the 1801's in there for Eric, this'll be a huge step forward in getting the 1801 data sheets from RCA and/or Harris. >The 1801 series was a less dense (hence teo chips) version of the 1802 >and was discontinued with the advent of the 1802 back around '76. Yep - this is why you need the file number before you can get any further. The data probably exist in paper form, but aren't indexed in any of the on-line databases that the manufacturers still have. It's like getting obsolete parts from DEC; first you have to convince yourself that such a part still exists, then you have to find the part number, and then you often find it's an off-the-shelf item even though it might not have been produced for 20 years. (Examples of stuff I've ordered in the past few years are RX02 and RL02 drive belts, and even a can of Magna-See.) In the case of DEC parts, having a dumpster-dived copy of the "Option/Module Hardware List" stamped "DEC Confidential" all over it helps a little bit :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 21 09:40:51 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: 1802 data sheets: was old data books In-Reply-To: <990421102259.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > >I have full 1802 docs from back when the elf article was published. > > Good - if you can find some RCA file numbers for the 1801's in there > for Eric, this'll be a huge step forward in getting the 1801 data sheets > from RCA and/or Harris. I know I have nothing on the 1801. It was phased out completely by RCA in '77 or so. It nevwer had a second source and harris came on line as a second source when RCA discontinued the 1802. > Yep - this is why you need the file number before you can get any further. > The data probably exist in paper form, but aren't indexed in any of the > on-line databases that the manufacturers still have. It's like getting The only vendor for the 1801 series was RCA so that narrows it but the division that was "180x" is long gone from what I've heard. The only hope is that the part is in space, the retention time for space related components is very long. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Wed Apr 21 09:54:48 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: 1802 data sheets: was old data books Message-ID: <990421105448.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> >> Good - if you can find some RCA file numbers for the 1801's in there >> for Eric, this'll be a huge step forward in getting the 1801 data sheets >> from RCA and/or Harris. >I know I have nothing on the 1801. It was phased out completely by RCA >in '77 or so. You looked through your 1802 stuff and didn't find a single reference to any 1801 literature? Often just having the reference lets you go to the local EE department and find the appropriate volume in their library (Many departments do have books going back to the early 70's) or in the personal library of one of the faculty members. Unfortunately, little of this stuff is in an online database anywhere, so you really have to do the legwork to track it down. I spent most of my academic career doing such legwork - it's been decades since many of the best tables of thermal neutron cross sections have been published, and I found many of them in dusty corners of little- used labs. Incidentally, I found my HP9100B while searching dusty corners for neutron cross section tables :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 21 10:07:29 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <001e01be8c08$acd1a500$0100c0a8@fuj03> While your comments are valid observations, I submit, however, that we're coming at this from two different viewpoints. I wish to address the question "Which processor is faster, 6502 or Z-80?" while you want a general comparison of processors. Unfortunately, answering one question doesn't address the other. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Yakowenko To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 12:26 AM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >On 19 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >] It's true that may be more interesting when you have different vehicles, but >] if you're trying to determine which of two is faster, don't you focus on >] those two? Having lots of variations in the hardware only tends to muddy >] the water. > >Obviously, some of us care about vehicles other than those two. >Doesn't muddy _my_ waters one bit. :-P > >I, for one, am interested in processor capabilities independent >of video/disk/etc gorp. Roman numerals isn't going to be a >thorough comparison, but it's better than nothing, and small >enough to be fun. If this is still going on in a month or two, >maybe I'll write an entry myself. As it is now, my schedule >barely allows me to keep up with all the stuff you guys are >writing! > > > >And then, later the same day, regarding my suggestion about >noting the relative ages of processors when comparing their >results, he wrote: >] It's pretty hard to imagine how a limitation like your suggestion would >] apply. Newer processors addressed weaknesses in the older ones. One of >] those was ease of programming. In some cases, e.g. the 6809, the processor >] was designed with a regular instruction set and lots of addressing modes so >] as to make generating code easy. It didn't necessarily make it faster. I >] don't know how elegant such code will ultimately turn out to be. > >If you want to get a handle on which processors were really >better than others performance-wise, you look at the best they >can do on some specific problems. Granted, the results may >not be easy to interpret because of varying environmental >characteristics. Welcome to Earth. Nothing is simple here. > >Obviously, if the 6809 loses to some older processor, its >adherents can still claim ease-of-coding as a benefit. But it >would still be interesting to know if it could regularly get >whomped by a measly, pathetic, sad-excuse-for-a-processor like >the 6502. :-) :-) :-) :-) > >My suggestion was not meant as any sort of limitation, just my >take on what kind of result would be interesting; one way of >interpreting the results. If an older processor doesn't do as >well as the newer one, well, we expected that. But if an older >one outperforms a newer one, there is something worth exploring >there, a lesson to be learned about an improvement really wasn't. > > Bill. > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 21 10:11:34 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 CPU Configuration In-Reply-To: <990421095630.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM" at Apr 21, 99 09:56:30 am Message-ID: <199904211511.IAA17645@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 919 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/2f5aefc2/attachment.ksh From jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com Wed Apr 21 09:43:03 1999 From: jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com (John Dykstra) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <01BE8BDB.E2872940@DYKSTRAL> I have several jars of ferrite cores made by IBM sometime in the late 1950's. I don't know exactly what size they are, but they can be hand-wired without a stereo microscope. I know, because I built a plane of 1x64x64 when I was in high school in 1971. (I was very determined to build my own computer.) The project was abandoned when I went away for college, which was probably a good thing, because my analog design skills were not up to creating the drive and sense circuitry. As I recall, I used something like #60 enameled wire. One of the challenges was stripping the insulation off the ends of the wires without damaging the copper. If anyone is seriously intending to build a demo core memory system, I'd be glad to provide a couple of hundred cores. I'd recommend something like a 16x16 array, unless you're looking for a project to make a 20-to-life sentence go faster. ---- John Dykstra jdykstra@nortelnetworks.com Principal Software Architect voice: ESN 454-1604 Enterprise Solutions fax: ESN 667-8549 From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Apr 21 10:20:57 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues Message-ID: It was a very cheap sale. Unfortunately it means that the scrappers got most of it. Checkout is still going on so there is a chance for some rescues if anyone is interested. I am posting the following list in hope that someone is interested in the misc. I will negotiate with the scrappers who bought the following if you are interested. Cheap offers are OK but we must move fast. Vector 3 (not a Soroc) with attached hard/floppy drive. The power cord for the HD/FL is broke. The CPU powers up nicely and all has worked in the past. The glare guard fabric is torn. Two Vector 4s with hard and floppy drives. They work but I can't find keyboards. Vector DD-5026 dual floppy accessory. Andromedia Systems Dual 5 1/4 floppy disk drive, DDMDS-B, SN 21. Could this be for DEC equip. MD 10 (Media Distributing Mfg.) Model RM11, SN 0061. One of the first small systems hard drive. Untested. CCS (California Computer Systems) 12 slot S 100 Mainframe with 64K static ram (4 - 16K boards), 2850 system processor Z80A, 2805 terminator, 2422 Floppy controller, 2830, 6 SIO. Missing the faceplate and has scratches on finish. Goes with a complete Dual 8" external drive. Set up as a USPS controller. IBC Multi-User Business computer, running a Z80H. DBS 16 4 user MPM system, has a 10 meg HD and has a serial number of 48. No terminals. Appears to work. Vista, V-1100 dual 8" disk drive case with dual Shugart 860-1 drives. Another drive case is a JMR Electronics with two Tandon TM848-01s. Powers up. Commodore dual disk drive. 4040 I think. HPIB interface. Compupros, Two 16 slots wi Tarbel Z80 CPU/IO, Ram 16 and the Tarbel MD 2022 8" Floppy controller. Integrand 7 slot S 100 Mainframe with the funny wide slot 5 1/4" disk drive. No cards. A Columbia 1202-4/110 Drive cabinet with an 8" HD and an 8" Floppy. A 10 slot Compupro with a single 8" SS drive, 8085/88 CPU, Ram 16 180A and a Disk One. A US Data dual 8" SD disk drive cabinet. A Telebyte TBX front loading reel Tape drive with serial IF. A Televideo TS803 that boots MS Dos. Works fine. a Symmetric 375 for parts, no HD (1/2 of the power of a VAX 750)! I have also made a deal with another scrapper to offer both 8 " hard and floppy drives. Several Quantum 2020s, 2040s and 2080 HDs. Three IMI 7720 HDs Shugart 801 and 851 full Ht Floppies Mitsubishi 2894 - 63B Full Ht. Floppies DSDD also Mitsubishi 1/2 Ht 2896-63B DSDD Floppies, Tandon 848 1/2 Ht floppies of different versions, NEC 1165-FQ & 1 1165-A 1/2 Ht floppys, and Shugart 810 and 860 1/2 Ht floppies, all 8" drives. All are working pulls, heads parked but untested. Looking to get $10 to $40 depending on size, condition and quantity. Shipping additional. I also believe the VAX 730, the RA60 and the RA81s are headed for scrap. Any Interest out there? Paxton From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Apr 21 10:26:35 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: "All-American Five" In-Reply-To: <199904211138.HAA03876@crobin.home.org> from "John Ruschmeyer" at Apr 21, 99 07:38:10 am Message-ID: <199904211526.IAA27567@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Group: Ah, the "All American Five". As a collector (also) of old radios, I have the standard tube lineup for this at home, and could supply scanned diagrams if anyone's interested. It was an AC/DC type of set that it was very easily to electrocute yourself on as it lacked any sort of power transformer and fuse. Ah, the good old days! See http://antiqueradios.com/chrs/journal/aa5.html for an article on the set. Kevin > > > > Out of curiousity was the term for the configuration of > > > > the common tube mantle-radio, "All-American 5", used in the UK and > > > > Europe or is this an expression you've acquired from Yanks. -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Wed Apr 21 10:26:50 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues Message-ID: <990421112650.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> >Andromedia Systems Dual 5 1/4 floppy disk drive, DDMDS-B, SN 21. Could this >be for DEC equip. Almost certainly. Does it have a 34-pin connector on the back? Some of the Andromeda controllers took a "breakout board" that separated the floppy signals from the hard disk signals, but the pre-breakout-board cable was (AFAIK) always wider than 34 pins. Tim. From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Apr 21 10:39:10 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: Sun 1 question Message-ID: How can I identify Sun 1 cards? Paxton From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Wed Apr 21 10:44:04 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 CPU Configuration Message-ID: <990421114404.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> >> Speaking from decades of experience, you *do not* put a Unibus machine >> together in a big configuration, especially from mix-and-match used >> parts, and get it to work. You go down to the most basic configuration >> possible, and then add parts one at a time, testing as you go. >Well, with the exception of the DELUA, and RAM everything is configured the >way it was when I got the machine, but that's a good point. I hope nobody takes it as an insult when I try to encourage them to take a system down to its bare-bones and build it back up step-by-step, but this really is the best way to debug a system that one knows little about the history of. Just because something is written on the sticker on the cover of a system about its configuration doesn't mean that it was working in that last configuration! In particular, with Unibus machines you have to check the presence of the NPG jumpers on the backplane if you have the slightest reason to believe that the configuration has been meddled with in the slightest since it last worked. A single mis-placed jumper anywhere in the system can cause the entire system to lock up when the first DMA attempt is made... Tim. From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 21 10:50:22 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues References: Message-ID: <371DF3BE.854BCFB5@rain.org> Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > > It was a very cheap sale. Unfortunately it means that the scrappers got most > of it. Checkout is still going on so there is a chance for some rescues if > anyone is interested. I am posting the following list in hope that someone is > interested in the misc. I will negotiate with the scrappers who bought the > following if you are interested. Cheap offers are OK but we must move fast. > > Vector 3 (not a Soroc) with attached hard/floppy drive. The power cord for > the HD/FL is broke. The CPU powers up nicely and all has worked in the past. > The glare guard fabric is torn. > > Two Vector 4s with hard and floppy drives. They work but I can't find > keyboards. > > Vector DD-5026 dual floppy accessory. I have docs for both the Vector 3 and Vector 4 computers if someone really needs them. My interest is in S-100 stuff, and if they are indeed heading for the scrap yard and nobody else wants them, I would be very interested in the S-100 cards (shipping weight of the whole computer gets a bit expensive.) Hmmm, another thought ... VCF 3.0 is coming up and would be a great place to sell off these systems if you have the time, room, and inclination to do so! From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Wed Apr 21 10:53:09 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: Sun 1 question Message-ID: <990421115309.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> >How can I identify Sun 1 cards? There's a rough equivalent to the "DEC Field Guide" for Sun systems. It's the "Sun Hardware Reference", and is by James W Birsall, and (at least it used to) is posted to somp.sys.sun.hardware semi-regularly. One version on the web is at http://stumbo.vm.com/~techrat/faq_hardware/hwref0.html Part 1 is a brief introduction to the various Sun models and backplanes, and Part 3 contains many Multibus board numbers. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 21 10:53:45 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues In-Reply-To: from "Innfogra@aol.com" at Apr 21, 99 11:20:57 am Message-ID: <199904211553.IAA19341@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 450 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/fa9f476d/attachment.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Apr 21 10:59:44 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: DEC Options Module List In-Reply-To: <990421102259.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at "Apr 21, 1999 10:22:59 am" Message-ID: <199904211559.LAA03646@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > > In the case of DEC parts, having a dumpster-dived copy of the "Option/Module > Hardware List" stamped "DEC Confidential" all over it helps a little > bit :-). > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 The holy grail of DEC dumpster divers everywhere. Unfortunately, mine stayed at DEC when I left. I was a good boy when I left. Too bad they never made it available electronically. A great tool for OEM's, VARS and us collectors. Every part ever used. (And the name of the DEC engineer in charge of the product at that time). Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Wed Apr 21 10:59:56 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: Sun 1 question Message-ID: <990421115956.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> >There's a rough equivalent to the "DEC Field Guide" for Sun systems. >It's the "Sun Hardware Reference", and is by James W Birsall, and >(at least it used to) is posted to comp.sys.sun.hardware semi-regularly. > >One version on the web is at > > http://stumbo.vm.com/~techrat/faq_hardware/hwref0.html I should also point out that there's a good amount of information in that FAQ that non-Sun collectors would also be interested in. Settings for many Multibus and VME modules, settings for many of the Emulex MFM and ESDI<->SCSI bridge controllers, settings for at least some of the more common QIC drives, some very basic information on older SCSI and IPI drives, and a pointer to the "Sun format.dat" table, which has geometry tables for common configurations of many SMD drives. There are also some gaping holes in the information that I'm sure we could help fill in, too :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 21 12:13:14 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: IBM AT technical reference Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990421121314.467f6ef0@intellistar.net> Who was I supposed to copy the IBM AT Tech Ref manual? I lost your message. I've made the copy, let me know who you are. Joe From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Wed Apr 21 11:24:56 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: DEC Options Module List Message-ID: <990421122456.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> >> In the case of DEC parts, having a dumpster-dived copy of the "Option/Module >> Hardware List" stamped "DEC Confidential" all over it helps a little >> bit :-). >The holy grail of DEC dumpster divers everywhere. >Unfortunately, mine stayed at DEC when I left. I was a good boy when >I left. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 21 11:26:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: 1802 data sheets: was old data books In-Reply-To: <990421105448.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > You looked through your 1802 stuff and didn't find a single reference to > any 1801 literature? Often just having the reference lets you go to Try MPM80x. The only references in mine acknowledge the existance of the 1801 and that the 1802 adds a few things and is only one chip. The key is it will be RCA for that time frame. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 21 11:30:40 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <199904210949.LAA06453@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: It would seem that we need further clarification of the fine points of the variant of "Roman Numerals" that we are to work with. For example, would ANY form of 1999 be acceptable, or is there one form that is required? MIM, MXMIX, MCMIC, . . . If there ISN"T a rule limiting the number of occurences of consecutive digits, then 6 could be expressed as IIIIII, etc. That gives rise to another flippant entry: ; data segment is composed of 3999 I's followed by a null MOV DX, 3999 ; DX now points to the null SUB DX, AX ; for a value X in AX, DX now points to a location : from which there are X I's and a null. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 21 11:34:09 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <01BE8BDB.E2872940@DYKSTRAL> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, John Dykstra wrote: > challenges was stripping the insulation off the ends of the wires without > damaging the copper. stripx solvent or heat. > If anyone is seriously intending to build a demo core memory system, I'd be > glad to provide a couple of hundred cores. I'd recommend something like a > 16x16 array, unless you're looking for a project to make a 20-to-life > sentence go faster. I'd love to take ashot at it say enough for an 8x8x1 plus a few spares. Even a few I can pulse them to see how the need to be driven. If I had the time I'd do a 8x8x8 plane, 64 bytes is enough to prove a point! Allison > > ---- > John Dykstra jdykstra@nortelnetworks.com > Principal Software Architect voice: ESN 454-1604 > Enterprise Solutions fax: ESN 667-8549 > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 21 12:50:15 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: SUN tape drive was RE: Sun 1 question In-Reply-To: <990421115956.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990421125015.234fa494@intellistar.net> I just picked up a SUN model 411 tape drive PN 595-1711-03. I can't find it in the SUN FAQ , does anyone have any info on it? Joe From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Apr 21 11:57:59 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <19990421165759.9731.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Dykstra wrote: > I have several jars of ferrite cores made by IBM sometime in the late > 1950's. I don't know exactly what size they are, but they can be > hand-wired without a stereo microscope. Cool. > As I recall, I used something like #60 enameled wire. One of the > challenges was stripping the insulation off the ends of the wires without > damaging the copper. Heat? Chemicals? Friction? > If anyone is seriously intending to build a demo core memory system, I'd be > glad to provide a couple of hundred cores. I'd recommend something like a > 16x16 array, unless you're looking for a project to make a 20-to-life > sentence go faster. I'm serious. I really have wanted to build something like this. In terms of size, the problem isn't the wiring, it's the redundant circuitry. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 21 14:07:44 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: Counting keystrokes In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990421100723.23473690@intellistar.net> References: <199904202117.XAA14484@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199904211708.TAA02134@horus.mch.sni.de> > >> > Believe it or not, the most common use of keeping keystrokes was for > >> > employee evaluation. I remember weekly postings of graphs of > >> > "keystrokes/hour" in data entry and word processing departments, with a > >> > weekly "prize" [nominal value] for the "best" data entry operator of the > >> > week. > >> Does it matter *which* keystrokes they are? In particular, does backspace > >> count? > >> If a business activity doesn't have any better metric than keystrokes, > >> is it even worth doing? > >Never forgett thet there hav been jobs where just keying in > >data is the goal (or are they still around) ? > > Yes, but counting keystrokes is still a common metric even for > professional work. Martin Marietta still uses it to "evaluate" their > engineers. Been there, put up with that shit and glad I'm out of it! Within German workin laws this would be illigal - only when the gathered data has a direct connection to the job a gathering is legal and the usage is allowed - so, even on secretary jobs this practice is illegal, since keystrokes/second are not a valid measurement for the job. God bless our unions. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Wed Apr 21 12:14:05 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <990421131405.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> >I'm serious. I really have wanted to build something like this. In terms >of size, the problem isn't the wiring, it's the redundant circuitry. Most of the DEC core planes use a fair number of special-purpose transistor arrays (often specially matched) for drivers as well as pulse transformers and delay lines. If you look back at alt.sys.pdp8 archives (or its mailing-list twin, PDP8-LOVERS) you'll find some suggestions for part substitutions and/or rebuild directions. I believe that at least one of the electronics rags in the Lasnerian mid-70's (Radio Electronics? Popular Electronics?) published an article on using surplus core arrays that were readily available at the time, but the article was remarkably detail-free when it came to the actual details of driving and sensing. There were at least a few implementations of S-100 core memory in the mid-70's, and one of them was a S-100 to Unibus translator of sorts. (Not to be confused with the IMSAI S-100/Unibus shared memory module, which is in several of my IMSAI price lists from 1977/1978 but which I believe to be vaporware.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 21 14:17:54 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <001e01be8c08$acd1a500$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <199904211718.TAA02732@horus.mch.sni.de> > While your comments are valid observations, I submit, however, that we're > coming at this from two different viewpoints. I wish to address the > question "Which processor is faster, 6502 or Z-80?" while you want a general > comparison of processors. Unfortunately, answering one question doesn't > address the other. The 6502 vs. Z80 is only a subplot in the all CPU question - so if the measurement does fit the general question it also fits the specific. In fact, if we go for the general thing, the rules will be much more aprobiate then when we only focuse on two examples. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Apr 21 12:29:22 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: Counting keystrokes In-Reply-To: <199904211708.TAA02134@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <3.0.1.16.19990421100723.23473690@intellistar.net> <199904202117.XAA14484@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: >Within German workin laws this would be illigal - only when the >gathered data has a direct connection to the job a gathering is >legal and the usage is allowed - so, even on secretary jobs this >practice is illegal, since keystrokes/second are not a valid >measurement for the job. God bless our unions. I'm not sure I'd trade our "idiots in management" for your unions, but it would be interesting. From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Apr 21 12:28:59 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 CPU Configuration In-Reply-To: <990421114404.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990421125648.00a532b0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 11:44 AM 4/21/99 -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM said something like: >>> Speaking from decades of experience, you *do not* put a Unibus machine >>> together in a big configuration, especially from mix-and-match used >>> parts, and get it to work. You go down to the most basic configuration >>> possible, and then add parts one at a time, testing as you go. > >>Well, with the exception of the DELUA, and RAM everything is configured the >>way it was when I got the machine, but that's a good point. > >I hope nobody takes it as an insult when I try to encourage them to take >a system down to its bare-bones and build it back up step-by-step, but >this really is the best way to debug a system that one knows little >about the history of. Just because something is written on the sticker Amen brother! That is the best way to approach problem solving: Get the parts which can be, or at least contribute to, the problem out of the way -provided those parts are options and/or not integral to the basic startup/running of the machine. Sort of like cutting the brush down to see into the forest. That's where I'm at with my 11/34A, a slow-moving project. Seems when I put the project aside a couple of weeks before Megan started work on hers, the bus was hanging for some reason. I've got to find and check the bus grant lines through to the terminator first. Tricky for me as this is the very *first* Unibus, or even DEC for that matter, hardware I've had the pleasure to work with. The backplane connector pinouts are wierdly strange to me so far :) I'm used to the numbering scheme found on VMEbus, STDbus and even that infernal ISA bus as opposed to the DEC folks here who may see it in their sleep;) But I'll get the hang of it eventually. It'll just take me that amount longer to get the machine running. I need to remove the FP11 and cache modules and try to see if it can do stuff w/o hanging. I'll get back to you DEC folks in another week or two about this if I have a pothole of trouble to leap over:) I must get back on it as soon as I get the final clean-out and fix-up of our old house completed so it can be sold. That's been putting much pressure upon me recently. It takes up time I want to use for getting the /34A running to sort out some RL01/02 disk packs before the balance of them head out west with the rest of the gear heading out. I only take timeout to *try* to keep up with this and several other mail lists (about average 120 to 170 msgs total per 24 hrs. Sometimes over 200 with loo-ong threads like several of the decidedly *off topic* threads which have come thru this list in the past weeks :( >on the cover of a system about its configuration doesn't mean that it >was working in that last configuration! In particular, with Unibus This is true. I was told that it *may* have worked when I picked it up. But the previous owner likely may not have remembered correctly (it was over five years since he turned it on) as I couldn't get it lit up last Autumn by using the original RK07's. >machines you have to check the presence of the NPG jumpers on the backplane >if you have the slightest reason to believe that the configuration has >been meddled with in the slightest since it last worked. A single >mis-placed jumper anywhere in the system can cause the entire system >to lock up when the first DMA attempt is made... Briefly, which are the NPG jumper pin numbers again? Any other jumpers or ww connections I should check out? I'm not blessed with a complete set of printsets and/or tech manuals so some important tips may not be found by me. I've been trapped by problems caused by lack of correct or detailed info on this already. Thanks much. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From gentry at zk3.dec.com Wed Apr 21 12:37:42 1999 From: gentry at zk3.dec.com (Megan Gentry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: Saving *BIG* Old Iron... Message-ID: <199904211737.AA11638@kamlia.zk3.dec.com> It looks like everything is coming together... We have a team assembled (compiled?) to decommission and move a set of KS10 decsystem-10 36-bit machines and the move happens this weekend! I was in attendance earlier today as the machines were shut down for the final time where they have been for quite a few years. I got a picture of the final systat screen, and they stopped timesharing... We then got busy unloading and shutting down all the disk drives. I then shut down the individual boxes and power controllers for the system cabinets and isolated the cabling (they had LOTS of terminal cables). I then raised all the stabilizing feet and used a tie-wrap to attach the panel keys inside the cabinet. I then closed and latched the front doors. I also did the same for the tape drive cabinets. They're all rolling free and ready to go. On friday, we'll be pre-staging all the disk drives, and on saturday we load-out to trucks. I'll be taking more pictures as we go along... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Wed Apr 21 12:42:54 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: SUN tape drive was RE: Sun 1 question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990421125015.234fa494@intellistar.net> from Joe at "Apr 21, 99 12:50:15 pm" Message-ID: <199904211742.NAA12247@hiway1.exit109.com> > I just picked up a SUN model 411 tape drive PN 595-1711-03. I can't find it > in the SUN FAQ , does anyone have any info on it? 411 is actually the model of the enclosure that the drive is in. The actual tape drive could be one of several types, though it is most likely a QIC-150. <<>> From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 21 12:46:03 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: (cisin@xenosoft.com) References: Message-ID: <19990421174603.15808.qmail@brouhaha.com> > If there ISN"T a rule limiting the number of occurences of consecutive > digits, then 6 could be expressed as IIIIII, etc. That gives rise to > another flippant entry: > > ; data segment is composed of 3999 I's followed by a null > MOV DX, 3999 ; DX now points to the null > SUB DX, AX ; for a value X in AX, DX now points to a location > : from which there are X I's and a null. You might win the speed contest, assuming there's no upper bound on memory usage. But you won't win the size contest. The earlier roman numeral competition I brought up that inspired this mess was only a memory usage competition, although apparently the motivation of the current one is speed. If I were setting the rules, I'd say that you only got 256 consecutive 8-bit bytes for total memory usage (code, tables, output buffer, etc.), and were not allowed to reference any memory outside this area. For machines not organized with 8-bit bytes, the equivalent amount of contiguous memory is permitted (i.e., 2048 bits). For some machines it may be necessary to relax the rules to allow access to architecturally specified memory areas such as the PDP-8's auto-index locations. However, those locations would count against the total memory usage. But fortunately for me, I'm not running this contest. :-) From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 21 12:46:46 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <19990421174646.15816.qmail@brouhaha.com> > If I had the time I'd do a 8x8x8 plane, 64 bytes is enough to prove a > point! Are you going to put it on a PCI board so it can be used in a modern computer? :-) From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 21 12:56:11 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues In-Reply-To: <371DF3BE.854BCFB5@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: > Hmmm, another thought ... VCF 3.0 is coming up and would be a great place to > sell off these systems if you have the time, room, and inclination to do so! Yeah, good point. I'll wager that if you were to put this all in the back of a pickup and drive down to VCF 3.0 for the weekend, you'd drive back up with a stack of bills in your pocket and an empty pickup. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 21 12:57:38 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <001901be8c20$72263020$0100c0a8@fuj03> I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982, there were few other processors than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A and the 8085, of course. The majority of home computers, though, used one of these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 in commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as the Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the IBM-PC and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp. My last, albeit not "commercial" application was designed with a pair of 65C02's (just under 5MHz) and a pair of 8751's in '86. The 6502 and Z-80 made their appearance in '76, as I recall, though there may have been a few out in '75. The big 6502 rollout was in '76, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 11:32 AM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >> While your comments are valid observations, I submit, however, that we're >> coming at this from two different viewpoints. I wish to address the >> question "Which processor is faster, 6502 or Z-80?" while you want a general >> comparison of processors. Unfortunately, answering one question doesn't >> address the other. > >The 6502 vs. Z80 is only a subplot in the all CPU question - so >if the measurement does fit the general question it also fits >the specific. In fact, if we go for the general thing, the rules >will be much more aprobiate then when we only focuse on two >examples. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Apr 21 13:05:43 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If I went down with a pickupload of that stuff I might bring back a pickup load of other stuff.... George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > Hmmm, another thought ... VCF 3.0 is coming up and would be a great place to > > sell off these systems if you have the time, room, and inclination to do so! > > Yeah, good point. I'll wager that if you were to put this all in the back > of a pickup and drive down to VCF 3.0 for the weekend, you'd drive back up > with a stack of bills in your pocket and an empty pickup. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Apr 21 13:11:45 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <19990421181145.4156.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > Problem: Convert a binary value to Roman, using ASCII characters (or > > the native character set if applicable) into a string > > with a termination character (if ASCII, use the NUL (0) > > character). > > > Sorry, I goofed. The longer string is 16 characters long: > > 'MMMDCCCLXXXVIII' plus termination character. In terms of how to represent numbers like 1999 (MIM or MCMXCIX), the rule I learned as a kid was that it was not proper to subtract any numeral from any other numeral willy-nilly. Only certain combinations were allowed and you had to just memorize them. Here's some links to some pages with something to say about Roman Numerals http://www.cod.edu/people/faculty/lawrence/romans00.htm http://www.col-ed.org/cur/math/math41.txt http://www.mcn.net/~jimloy/roman0.html http://raven.bu.edu/~grozdits/student/roman_num.html ... and we now return you to your regularly scheduled Off Topic discussions... -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From mbg at world.std.com Wed Apr 21 13:10:08 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) Message-ID: <199904211810.AA14871@world.std.com> I have found a reference which has some rules for constructing roman numerals. Firstly, four of a given numeral is okay, but five or more is not. This allows VIIII to be valid. You must use the largest numeral at a given stage, so for 15, you don't write VVV, you write XV. Numerals of a lower value, when written in front of a higher valued numeral subtract their value from the higher valued numeral. Further rules for the subtraction: o Only I X and C can be used in this way. V, L and D cannot (nor can M) o Only one smaller numeral can be written first. So XIIX is not valid for 18. o The lower numeral must be no less than a tenth of the value of the higher numeral. o It specifically states that each power of ten is handled separately, and uses the example that 49 is NOT IL, it is correctly XLIX. These are the rules I have used in my routine... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Apr 21 13:14:18 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <19990421174646.15816.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (allisonp@world.std.com) Message-ID: >> If I had the time I'd do a 8x8x8 plane, 64 bytes is enough to prove a >> point! > >Are you going to put it on a PCI board so it can be used in a modern >computer? :-) What would be HOT is to put it on a PC card (you pick the flavor), but make sure the size is sufficent for some REAL function like non volatile ram. I smell a neat science project / demonstation board in this idea. Perhaps a smaller array, but with LARGE cores where the magnetic state could have some visual indicators. >>>> Until this recent discussion I never really understood how core "worked", so its been educational for me. (equal chance though I knew it well once, etc.) From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 21 14:45:44 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990421144544.4697b030@intellistar.net> I'd go with a pickup load of $$$ and come back with several loads of junk, er, umm, stuff. Good thing I'm on the wrong side of the country. Joe At 11:05 AM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >If I went down with a pickupload of that stuff I might bring back a pickup >load of other stuff.... > >George > >========================================================= >George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com >Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >> On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: >> >> > Hmmm, another thought ... VCF 3.0 is coming up and would be a great place to >> > sell off these systems if you have the time, room, and inclination to do so! >> >> Yeah, good point. I'll wager that if you were to put this all in the back >> of a pickup and drive down to VCF 3.0 for the weekend, you'd drive back up >> with a stack of bills in your pocket and an empty pickup. >> >> Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. >> >> Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! >> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! >> [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >> >> > > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Apr 21 13:45:31 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: Is this an 11/44 or 11/34? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990421125648.00a532b0@206.231.8.2> from Christian Fandt at "Apr 21, 1999 1:28:59 pm" Message-ID: <199904211845.OAA04075@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > Briefly, which are the NPG jumper pin numbers again? If my foggy brain cells work. CA1-CB1 > > Any other jumpers or ww connections I should check out? I'm not blessed > with a complete set of printsets and/or tech manuals so some important tips > may not be found by me. I've been trapped by problems caused by lack of > correct or detailed info on this already. > > Thanks much. Regards, Chris If you get into trouble holler. I may have an 11/34 pocket guide somewhere. My 11/34 printsets hit the trash when I got married 6 years ago. (damn> Does this machine have battery backup? Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 21 13:52:49 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990421144544.4697b030@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > I'd go with a pickup load of $$$ and come back with several loads of junk, > er, umm, stuff. Good thing I'm on the wrong side of the country. Hans Franke came all the way from Germany last year and bought a truck load of stuff, so what's stopping you (besides sanity)? (Unfortunately, that truckload of stuff ended up taking up valuable space in my closet...some people just don't know their limits :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Apr 21 13:53:05 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: DEC Options Module List In-Reply-To: <990421122456.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at "Apr 21, 1999 12:24:56 pm" Message-ID: <199904211853.OAA04106@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > >> In the case of DEC parts, having a dumpster-dived copy of the "Option/Module > >> Hardware List" stamped "DEC Confidential" all over it helps a little > >> bit :-). > > >The holy grail of DEC dumpster divers everywhere. > >Unfortunately, mine stayed at DEC when I left. I was a good boy when > >I left. > > >From what I know about DEC security at the facilities I've visited, > you'd have a hard time sneaking out the multi-thousand-page list > without looking at least a little bit suspicious. When I was at DEC Princeton '86 it was about 500 pages and still fit in an Attache Case. Security was a lot looser and the dumpster was right behind the building. > > I'm lucky in that I've never been a DEC employee nor have any of the NDA's > I've signed with them been applicable outside a very limited range of > data. The whole company was a lot looser in the mid '80's and looser than that before then. The more closed they became the worse things got. > > There are some on-line resources, including Digital's Electronic > Store and the Digital Assisted Services catalogs, which can be > useful. Unfortunately the Electronic Store was phased out over > a year ago and the DAS online catalogs are being phased out as part > of the merger with Compaq. > > Tim. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Apr 21 13:57:35 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 21, 99 11:52:49 am Message-ID: <199904211857.LAA10666@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 567 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/9986d04d/attachment.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Apr 21 13:54:36 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Apr 21, 1999 11:14:18 am" Message-ID: <199904211854.OAA04118@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > >> If I had the time I'd do a 8x8x8 plane, 64 bytes is enough to prove a > >> point! > > > >Are you going to put it on a PCI board so it can be used in a modern > >computer? :-) > > What would be HOT is to put it on a PC card (you pick the flavor), but make > sure the size is sufficent for some REAL function like non volatile ram. I > smell a neat science project / demonstation board in this idea. Perhaps a > smaller array, but with LARGE cores where the magnetic state could have > some visual indicators. Imagine a 128k core bios rom in a PC. Hell, imagine the old Diode/Resister matrix roms. Y2k upgrade... fix the bios, here's a soldering iron and some diagonal cutters. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Apr 21 14:16:52 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues In-Reply-To: from "Innfogra@aol.com" at "Apr 21, 1999 11:20:57 am" Message-ID: <199904211916.TAA04677@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > Vista, V-1100 dual 8" disk drive case with dual Shugart 860-1 drives. > > Another drive case is a JMR Electronics with two Tandon TM848-01s. Powers up. > > I have also made a deal with another scrapper to offer both 8 " hard and > floppy drives. > Several Quantum 2020s, 2040s and 2080 HDs. > Three IMI 7720 HDs > Shugart 801 and 851 full Ht Floppies > Mitsubishi 2894 - 63B Full Ht. Floppies DSDD > also Mitsubishi 1/2 Ht 2896-63B DSDD Floppies, > Tandon 848 1/2 Ht floppies of different versions, > NEC 1165-FQ & 1 1165-A 1/2 Ht floppys, and > Shugart 810 and 860 1/2 Ht floppies, all 8" drives. > > All are working pulls, heads parked but untested. Looking to get $10 to $40 > depending on size, condition and quantity. Shipping additional. > > Any Interest out there? > Paxton > I'm interested in getting a 8" DSDD floppy drive in an external case. Something I might be able to wire up to an IBM-PC for use in making archive backups of my 8" floppy disks. Any idea on how much shipping something like this, either a single or dual floppy drive, would cost? I'm in Minneapolis, zip 55414. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From max82 at surfree.com Wed Apr 21 13:33:44 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: more chording keyboards Message-ID: Hi, I still haven't built a chording keyboard, but I'd like to know, what are its advantages/disadvantages over a regular one? I realize the general differences, what I'm looking for is 'it would be great for typing because.., it would be awful for data entry because....' --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Apr 21 14:39:28 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Hans Franke came all the way from Germany last year and bought a truck > load of stuff, so what's stopping you (besides sanity)? > > (Unfortunately, that truckload of stuff ended up taking up valuable space > in my closet...some people just don't know their limits :) Well... if this is good or bad depends on just how interesting the 'stuff' is, yes? -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 21 14:41:42 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <990421131405.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Most of the DEC core planes use a fair number of special-purpose > transistor arrays (often specially matched) for drivers as well as pulse > transformers and delay lines. If you look back at alt.sys.pdp8 archives > (or its mailing-list twin, PDP8-LOVERS) you'll find some suggestions > for part substitutions and/or rebuild directions. If your repairing a existing core that is significant. If your doing something small that just has to work for demo reasons that is not a show stopper. > of driving and sensing. There were at least a few implementations of > S-100 core memory in the mid-70's, and one of them was a S-100 to > Unibus translator of sorts. (Not to be confused with the IMSAI > S-100/Unibus shared memory module, which is in several of my IMSAI > price lists from 1977/1978 but which I believe to be vaporware.) Byte, kilobaud or interfaceage in the late 70s (76 thru 79) I distinctly remember an articale with some detail. I have an advantage... 8E printset and a Electronics engineering caseboot describing several designs from the late 50s including a code converter and the Lincoln TX2. There are enough fragments there for me to do something. Allison From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 21 14:42:17 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, James Willing wrote: > On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > Hans Franke came all the way from Germany last year and bought a truck > > load of stuff, so what's stopping you (besides sanity)? > > > > (Unfortunately, that truckload of stuff ended up taking up valuable space > > in my closet...some people just don't know their limits :) > > Well... if this is good or bad depends on just how interesting the 'stuff' > is, yes? Let's just say when he finally does retrieve it he's going to find out his new hobby is collecting rocks and newspaper :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 21 14:51:24 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > What would be HOT is to put it on a PC card (you pick the flavor), but make > sure the size is sufficent for some REAL function like non volatile ram. I > smell a neat science project / demonstation board in this idea. Perhaps a > smaller array, but with LARGE cores where the magnetic state could have > some visual indicators. Mike, PCI is 33mhz and core at best is 1mhz tthat would eb an expensive slow joke. Cores large enough for visual indication of magnetic field would be in the 10-20AMPS select curent range. Not a real possibility. allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 21 16:57:00 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing) In-Reply-To: <199904211810.AA14871@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199904211958.VAA09901@horus.mch.sni.de> > I have found a reference which has some rules for constructing > roman numerals. Any reference identification ? > Firstly, four of a given numeral is okay, but five or more is > not. This allows VIIII to be valid. Depending on the source - the quad form (up to 4 repeeted Numerals) is only valid in a context where the subtraction rule is _not_ allowed > You must use the largest numeral at a given stage, so for 15, > you don't write VVV, you write XV. check > Numerals of a lower value, when written in front of a higher > valued numeral subtract their value from the higher valued > numeral. check > Further rules for the subtraction: > o Only I X and C can be used in this way. V, L and D > cannot (nor can M) maybe check http://www.geocities.com/~source00/cpp-roman.htm where this rule described diferently - also his second rule is confusing. > o Only one smaller numeral can be written first. So > XIIX is not valid for 18. debending on the context again, there are examples of historic usage of this form - althrough all rules/frameworks of rules I know also prohibit this. > o The lower numeral must be no less than a tenth of the > value of the higher numeral. I'm still missing this rule > o It specifically states that each power of ten is handled > separately, and uses the example that 49 is NOT IL, it is > correctly XLIX. Check maybe http://rcswww.urz.tu-dresden.de/~wegehenk/typo/roemisch.html It is discusion for typographic usage (and in German, but the point should be easy to get). Always remember, The roman system was made to save space - engraving less strokes is important (good examples are always coins and officia letters - or can you dechipher IMP CAES PONT MAX TR P C P P ? (*)) One thing to add: the Rule where 4 adjouning Numerals are prohibited wasn't hard until the 6th century (maybe it didnt exist ?). (*) Imperator Caesar Ponifex Maximus Tribunicia Potestate Consul Pater Patriae as found on very common Augustus (Octavius) denars - and to enhance the task, the letters are not as nice seperated as I have written them :) Gruss H. Also nice page at http://olympiads.win.tue.nl/acm-arch/ProblemSetArchive/B_VV_Asian/1995/probf.html They did almost the same as we - just the problem discription was a bit better. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 21 16:57:01 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <001901be8c20$72263020$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <199904211958.VAA09904@horus.mch.sni.de> > I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982, there were few other processors > than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A and > the 8085, of course. The majority of home computers, though, used one of > these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 in > commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as the > Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the IBM-PC > and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp. in 1982, the 9900 was also big and beasts like SC/MP where still on the run (and 680xx, 808x and 160xx comming up), but you're right if you want to pich the two mayor player in the SOHO market. But still, a general measurement includes them. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 21 15:05:38 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:25 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990421150538.010c2c40@vpwisfirewall> At 03:51 PM 4/21/99 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > >Cores large enough for visual indication of magnetic field would be in the >10-20AMPS select curent range. Not a real possibility. How long does core stay magnetized without power? How many bytes of battery-backed RAM are there in a typical PC? Haven't there been contemporary memory devices that use nano-scale cores, to eliminate the battery needs and radiation sensitivity of RAM? - John From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 21 15:16:17 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <002301be8c33$d2cca400$0100c0a8@fuj03> For the longest time, the TMS 9900 didn't appear in anything one could consider a reasonable computer. There was one model I saw at a colleagues home which had expansion capability, but he often complained that cards for interesting applications, like mass storage, etc, were not available. I didn't pursue it and so I believe(d) it to be true. I saw one ad for an SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 2:10 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >> I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982, there were few other processors >> than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A and >> the 8085, of course. The majority of home computers, though, used one of >> these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 in >> commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as the >> Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the IBM-PC >> and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp. > >in 1982, the 9900 was also big and beasts like SC/MP where still on >the run (and 680xx, 808x and 160xx comming up), but you're right if >you want to pich the two mayor player in the SOHO market. > >But still, a general measurement includes them. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 21 17:15:53 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990421150538.010c2c40@vpwisfirewall> References: Message-ID: <199904212016.WAA10601@horus.mch.sni.de> > >Cores large enough for visual indication of magnetic field would be in the > >10-20AMPS select curent range. Not a real possibility. > How long does core stay magnetized without power? > How many bytes of battery-backed RAM are there in a typical PC? Is my Linux system typical (using 1 Meg static as boot :) ? > Haven't there been contemporary memory devices that use nano-scale > cores, to eliminate the battery needs and radiation sensitivity of RAM? MRAM, based on the TMR effect - still in development, Universtity of Kaiserslautern and SIEMENS Semiconductors (now renamed to Infineon) cooperate in the development - Prototypes in the MBit scale are on scedule for 2000/2001 Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 21 15:22:15 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990421150538.010c2c40@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, John Foust wrote: > At 03:51 PM 4/21/99 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > >Cores large enough for visual indication of magnetic field would be in the > >10-20AMPS select curent range. Not a real possibility. > > How long does core stay magnetized without power? Forever, as far as I've been told. > How many bytes of battery-backed RAM are there in a typical PC? 128? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From donm at cts.com Wed Apr 21 15:23:22 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: <199904210756.DAA03715@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > On 20 Apr 99 at 23:59, Jim Strickland wrote: > > > > Out of curiousity was the term for the configuration of > > > the common tube mantle-radio, "All-American 5", used in the UK and > > > Europe or is this an expression you've acquired from Yanks. > > > > I've seen it used in the US press (albiet magazines about old radios) so > > I suspect it's from here in the US. If memory serves it's from a 5 tube > > set (as near as I can tell, very like a chipset today) made by one or more > > of the major tube manufacturers that had all the components for a simple, > > inexpensive superhet radio. > > > > -- > > Jim Strickland > > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Oh, the expression is definitely american. The AA5 were the 12ba6, 12be6, > 35w4, 50b5 and the 12at6. British and Euro names for the same tubes could be ^^^^ Wasn't it 50L6? - don > different but basicly the same circuit with occasional variants or additions. > RCA could have originated it but everyone and his brother put out sets using it > Kind of like the IBM clones. (in order to get back OT). > > ciao larry > lwalker@interlog.com > > Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 21 17:23:30 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <002301be8c33$d2cca400$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <199904212024.WAA10953@horus.mch.sni.de> > For the longest time, the TMS 9900 didn't appear in anything one could > consider a reasonable computer. There was one model I saw at a colleagues > home which had expansion capability, but he often complained that cards for > interesting applications, like mass storage, etc, were not available. I > didn't pursue it and so I believe(d) it to be true. Don't forget the 99/4 (no A) :) > I saw one ad for an > SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was > not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor > was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now > of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I > ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. Over here they have been quite popular as kit systems. We are talking about a timeframe until 1982 - systems where still only available in small quantities, and the landscape was wide :) gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 21 15:24:41 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <002301be8c33$d2cca400$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > For the longest time, the TMS 9900 didn't appear in anything one could > consider a reasonable computer. There was one model I saw at a colleagues > home which had expansion capability, but he often complained that cards for > interesting applications, like mass storage, etc, were not available. I > didn't pursue it and so I believe(d) it to be true. I saw one ad for an > SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was > not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor > was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now > of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I > ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. Richard, the rest of the world does not peer through the same blinders you have on. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 21 17:26:02 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990421150538.010c2c40@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <199904212027.WAA11110@horus.mch.sni.de> > > >Cores large enough for visual indication of magnetic field would be in the > > >10-20AMPS select curent range. Not a real possibility. > > How long does core stay magnetized without power? > Forever, as far as I've been told. it is said that Fe is the most lasting element in the table, but I'm not shure if the cores can maintain their orientation within a black hole ... > > How many bytes of battery-backed RAM are there in a typical PC? > 128? Hmm on several BIOS implementations there are additional RAM areas, and dont forget the flash parts for setup information. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 21 15:28:48 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... In-Reply-To: <001901be8c20$72263020$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982, there were few other processors > than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A and > the 8085, of course. In it's first couple of years, the IBM PC (introduced 8/11/1981) sold enough machines that surely the 8088 could have been said to be in popular use! [this is a comment about market, NOT an endorsement] > The majority of home computers, though, used one of > these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 in > commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as the > Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the IBM-PC > and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp. 10 years? Does this imply that the PC was not the dominant force until the end of the 80s? [this is a comment about market, NOT an endorsement] From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Wed Apr 21 15:27:41 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: SUN tape drive was RE: Sun 1 question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990421125015.234fa494@intellistar.net> Message-ID: The 411 is just the box. Mine has an Archive Viper QIC-150 in it that I use with an Emulex MT-02 controller. You'll have to take a look inside to see what you've got in there. Under SunOS, you should be able to access this as device st[devnum]. Check the man page for "st" for some more info. Aaron On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > I just picked up a SUN model 411 tape drive PN 595-1711-03. I can't find it > in the SUN FAQ , does anyone have any info on it? > > Joe > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 14:25:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: DEC BC11A-15 Cable In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 20, 99 07:21:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 267 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/dff89431/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 14:27:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: UNIBUS Terminators In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 20, 99 07:43:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 418 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/4864545a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 14:38:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: <199904210756.DAA03715@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Apr 21, 99 03:56:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1217 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/192d7ef6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 14:41:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: Board ID (Omnibus PDP8)? In-Reply-To: <004201be8bab$70daab80$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> from "Rick Bensene" at Apr 20, 99 09:00:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1556 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/a7b813c5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 14:20:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: <199904210550.BAA20700@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Apr 21, 99 01:50:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 750 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/04d47025/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 14:48:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 CPU Configuration In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 20, 99 08:46:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1795 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/442f2b9e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 14:54:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: Ancient disk controllers In-Reply-To: <199904210621.CAA17314@platy.cs.unc.edu> from "Bill Yakowenko" at Apr 21, 99 02:21:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 532 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/ac248c79/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 14:55:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: Repairing core In-Reply-To: <199904210629.CAA17341@platy.cs.unc.edu> from "Bill Yakowenko" at Apr 21, 99 02:29:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/21ac3744/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 15:11:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 CPU Configuration In-Reply-To: <990421095630.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM" at Apr 21, 99 09:56:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1640 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/305e1c07/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 15:18:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 CPU Configuration In-Reply-To: <990421114404.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM" at Apr 21, 99 11:44:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1487 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/f6a28fa5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 15:26:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 CPU Configuration In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990421125648.00a532b0@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Apr 21, 99 01:28:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 986 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/fe6a78d3/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Wed Apr 21 15:34:43 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... Message-ID: <990421163443.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> >> The majority of home computers, though, used one of >> these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 in >> commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as the >> Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the IBM-PC >> and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp. >10 years? >Does this imply that the PC was not the dominant force until the end of >the 80s? >[this is a comment about market, NOT an endorsement] *My* gauge of when the PC became the dominant force was when: 1. Dr. Dobb's started carrying few articles other than ones talking about MS-DOS and 2. The quantity of PC-Clone ads in the back of BYTE outinched the number of S-100 ads Looking at my back issues, I'd draw the line at 1985. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Apr 21 15:42:05 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at Apr 21, 1999 01:28:48 PM Message-ID: <199904212042.OAA14927@calico.litterbox.com> > > On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982, there were few other processors > > than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A and > > the 8085, of course. > > In it's first couple of years, the IBM PC (introduced 8/11/1981) sold > enough machines that surely the 8088 could have been said to be in popular > use! > [this is a comment about market, NOT an endorsement] > > > The majority of home computers, though, used one of > > these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 in > > commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as the > > Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the IBM-PC > > and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp. > > 10 years? > Does this imply that the PC was not the dominant force until the end of > the 80s? > [this is a comment about market, NOT an endorsement] I'd have to agree with this. PCs were designed for business, so they lagged far behind other machines in things home users tended to want - color, sound, and so on. About the turn of the decade was when they really started to become dominant in the home computing world, wrenching it away from the C64/Amiga/Mac/Apple2/Atari/etc market. The last survivor was the Radio Shack Color Computer - sort of appropriate, since they marketed the first personal computer in the TRS-80 model 1. Note that this also is strictly the US market. The world market is quite different and I know zip about it. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Apr 21 15:43:49 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC Board: USDC-1101 Message-ID: <199904212043.NAA15039@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: I just returned from the local university junk sale, and acquired (among other detritus) two Q bus boards. They are made by (apparently) USDC, model number 1101, revisions "01" and "BG". The chips are marked circa 1982. They have a Z80, som EPROM, a couple of PALs, and a 40 pin IDC header. They are half-height boards ( i.e. two sets of fingers). "LSI-11 Host Interface" is silk screened onto the board under the part number. Can anyone tell me what these are? They came out of an 11/23 box badged 11-DM4, althought the box is in the truck and I may have the DM$ slightly incorrect. Thanks, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Apr 21 15:59:10 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: Roman numerals In-Reply-To: <199904211958.VAA09901@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <199904211810.AA14871@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990421135723.03d58d80@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 09:58 PM 4/21/99 +0001, Hans Franke wrote: >> o Only one smaller numeral can be written first. So >> XIIX is not valid for 18. > >debending on the context again, there are examples of historic >usage of this form - althrough all rules/frameworks of rules I >know also prohibit this. And no doubt some poor slave just finished chisling in all the closing stock prices for the Roman Stock Exchange and some spelling weenie piped up and said only, "You misspelled 18 on line 30 there." --Chuck From KFergason at aol.com Wed Apr 21 15:56:40 1999 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <4a230190.244f9588@aol.com> In a message dated 4/21/99 3:29:10 PM Central Daylight Time, dastar@ncal.verio.com writes: >> of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I >> ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. > > Richard, the rest of the world does not peer through the same blinders you > have on. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > Name a non-homebrew SC/MP based computer. (note, I believe one existed, but memory is fuzzy till i get home to the old magazines) Kelly From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 21 16:00:58 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: Roman numerals In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990421135723.03d58d80@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: > And no doubt some poor slave just finished chisling in all the closing > stock prices for the Roman Stock Exchange and some spelling weenie piped up > and said only, "You misspelled 18 on line 30 there." and said only, "You misspelled XVIII on line XXX there." From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Wed Apr 21 16:03:43 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC Board: USDC-1101 Message-ID: <990421170343.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> >They are made by (apparently) USDC, model number 1101, revisions "01" and >"BG". The chips are marked circa 1982. They have a Z80, som EPROM, a >couple of PALs, and a 40 pin IDC header. They are half-height boards ( >i.e. two sets of fingers). "LSI-11 Host Interface" is silk screened onto >the board under the part number. > >Can anyone tell me what these are? They came out of an 11/23 box badged >11-DM4, althought the box is in the truck and I may have the DM$ slightly >incorrect. USDC= U.S. Design Corporation. They're based in Maryland, not too far from where I now live. They sold (among other things) disk subsystems. The one you have emulates RK06/RK07 drives, and hooked (via the 40 pin connector) to an external box that had a hard drive (either a 5.25" MFM or a 8" non-MFM) with electronics that converted the native drive interface to the 40-pin interface. You might have seen the appropriate drive boxes in my storage space in Surrey, if you remember our trip there :-). They're 5.25" rack-width boxes, have black fronts with a row of bar LED's that blink in a cylon patterm when running, and are about 25" deep - you ought to head back out to UBC and see if there are any USDC boxes meeting this description there. I still have the drives and the interfaces, but it's been years since I've powered them up. The controller is 22-bit-Qbus capable, but the PDP-11 OS's only know of Unibus RK06's/07's, so machines with more than 256kbytes of memory generally had USDC patches made to the OS drivers so they knew how to do DMA to high memory. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 21 18:05:00 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <4a230190.244f9588@aol.com> Message-ID: <199904212106.XAA12749@horus.mch.sni.de> > >> of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I > >> ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. > > Richard, the rest of the world does not peer through the same blinders you > > have on. > Name a non-homebrew SC/MP based computer. > (note, I believe one existed, but memory is fuzzy till i get home to > the old magazines) Definine homebrew - if kit systems are excluded, we could go for the Elektor SC/MP system - widely spread across Europe (notable Belgium, Danmark, France, Germany and Holland). I put one up for display on VCF 2.0 Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 21 18:06:49 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: Now OT: Re: Roman numerals In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990421135723.03d58d80@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <199904212107.XAA12865@horus.mch.sni.de> > > And no doubt some poor slave just finished chisling in all the closing > > stock prices for the Roman Stock Exchange and some spelling weenie piped up > > and said only, "You misspelled 18 on line 30 there." > and said only, "You misspelled XVIII on line XXX there." Now we know where his family went after there was no longer a roman stock exchange :) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Wed Apr 21 16:12:20 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: Now OT: Re: Roman numerals Message-ID: <990421171220.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> >> > And no doubt some poor slave just finished chisling in all the closing >> > stock prices for the Roman Stock Exchange and some spelling weenie piped up >> > and said only, "You misspelled 18 on line 30 there." >> and said only, "You misspelled XVIII on line XXX there." >Now we know where his family went after there was no longer >a roman stock exchange :) OTOH, if we all used Roman Numerals for data storage still, there would be no Y2K problem due to "extra" digits! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 21 16:12:31 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... In-Reply-To: <199904212042.OAA14927@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > C64/Amiga/Mac/Apple2/Atari/etc market. The last survivor was the Radio Shack > Color Computer - sort of appropriate, since they marketed the first personal > computer in the TRS-80 model 1. Note that this also is strictly the US market. Bahahaha. Ok, come clean: you were really joking, right? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 21 16:14:57 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <4a230190.244f9588@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 KFergason@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/21/99 3:29:10 PM Central Daylight Time, > dastar@ncal.verio.com writes: > > >> of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe > I > >> ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. > > > > Richard, the rest of the world does not peer through the same blinders you > > have on. > > > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: > dastar@siconic.com > > > > Name a non-homebrew SC/MP based computer. (note, I believe one > existed, but memory is fuzzy till i get home to the old magazines) Is this a challenge of some sort? The comment I made was referring to Richard's overall outlook on computer development throughout the past two and a half decades. But as far as SC/MP based computers go, the next time I visit my warehouse I'll take take note of the singleboard SC/MP computers I have. In the meantime, Hans will tell you about the ones he has in his collection. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 21 18:16:58 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: Now OT: Re: Roman numerals In-Reply-To: <990421171220.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199904212117.XAA13303@horus.mch.sni.de> > >> > And no doubt some poor slave just finished chisling in all the closing > >> > stock prices for the Roman Stock Exchange and some spelling weenie piped up > >> > and said only, "You misspelled 18 on line 30 there." > >> and said only, "You misspelled XVIII on line XXX there." > >Now we know where his family went after there was no longer > >a roman stock exchange :) > OTOH, if we all used Roman Numerals for data storage still, there would > be no Y2K problem due to "extra" digits! In fact, even when using the indic-arabic system, if rome would still rule (name the legal follower :) the date would be way more aprobiate, since it would be the year 2751 - so we still would have 49 more years ... the unix problem will hit earlier. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From donm at cts.com Wed Apr 21 16:21:29 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues In-Reply-To: <199904211916.TAA04677@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > Vista, V-1100 dual 8" disk drive case with dual Shugart 860-1 drives. > > > > Another drive case is a JMR Electronics with two Tandon TM848-01s. Powers up. > > > > I have also made a deal with another scrapper to offer both 8 " hard and > > floppy drives. > > Several Quantum 2020s, 2040s and 2080 HDs. > > Three IMI 7720 HDs > > Shugart 801 and 851 full Ht Floppies > > Mitsubishi 2894 - 63B Full Ht. Floppies DSDD > > also Mitsubishi 1/2 Ht 2896-63B DSDD Floppies, > > Tandon 848 1/2 Ht floppies of different versions, > > NEC 1165-FQ & 1 1165-A 1/2 Ht floppys, and > > Shugart 810 and 860 1/2 Ht floppies, all 8" drives. > > > > All are working pulls, heads parked but untested. Looking to get $10 to $40 > > depending on size, condition and quantity. Shipping additional. > > > > Any Interest out there? > > Paxton > > > > I'm interested in getting a 8" DSDD floppy drive in an external case. > Something I might be able to wire up to an IBM-PC for use in making > archive backups of my 8" floppy disks. > > Any idea on how much shipping something like this, either a single > or dual floppy drive, would cost? I'm in Minneapolis, zip 55414. Well, were it a single half high Mitsubishi with case and power supply (switcher) it would cost about $16 coming from San Diego. (No, it is not for sale.) - don > -Lawrence LeMay > lemay@cs.umn.edu > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 21 16:28:05 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: Now OT: Re: Roman numerals In-Reply-To: <990421171220.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990421162805.010f89b0@vpwisfirewall> At 05:12 PM 4/21/99 -0400, you wrote: >OTOH, if we all used Roman Numerals for data storage still, there would >be no Y2K problem due to "extra" digits! There are some interesting descriptions of Roman computing-ish devices, like the one that drew lots for jury and Senate duty, in the Dead Media mailing list. Search anywhere and ye shall find. - John From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Apr 21 16:31:25 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 21, 1999 02:12:31 PM Message-ID: <199904212131.PAA15167@calico.litterbox.com> > > On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > > > C64/Amiga/Mac/Apple2/Atari/etc market. The last survivor was the Radio Shack > > Color Computer - sort of appropriate, since they marketed the first personal > > computer in the TRS-80 model 1. Note that this also is strictly the US market. > > Bahahaha. Ok, come clean: you were really joking, right? Heh. No. I got my first PC in 1990. 386s had just come out, but an XT was still a useful machine because nothing really made use of 32 bit computing at the time. Its CGA graphics were grossly inferior to the Commodore 64 I sold to get it, and it had no sound at all except a few pathetic beeps. A loaded 386 of the day might have had EGA graphics and a meg or two of ram, and a sound board (I THINK soundblasters were out in 1990) but it would have been a multi-thousand dollar machine, and it would have spent its day running DOS and DOS programs really fast. (mighty 16 mhz?) At the time software was just starting to be made that wasn't also immidately ported to the apple2 and commodore platforms, and the mac software world was starting to really pick up. And I seem to remember the color computer hardware going on final clearance at Radio Shack as late as 1994. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Apr 21 16:35:02 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC Board: USDC-1101 In-Reply-To: <990421170343.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990421143502.00948960@mail.sfu.ca> Hi, Tim - You're a wealth of obscure information, as always! I picked up the unit mainly for the front panel, with the toggle switches, etc., but also an extra power supply and backplane wouldn't hurt. I'll move the panel to that old 11/23 box I bought, if you remember it. That box now has two RX02s and RT-11 running on it. I added an DELQA over the weekend and am planning to get the Kent TCP/IP package running on it. Then perhaps I'll throw it on the net from here at work! SERF hasn't been too good lately for computer stuff, even old PCs. It was mostly furniture today with a bit of chem lab equipment. I didn't see any drives, so these cards will go in the "stock" boxes in case anyone else needs them, in the future. For those not familiar with SERF, it's the "surplus equipment recycling facility" at the University of British Columbia here in Vancouver. The only place where I've found Qbus boards at five for a dollar. Thanks for the info Tim, Kevin At 05:03 PM 21/04/99 -0400, you wrote: >>They are made by (apparently) USDC, model number 1101, revisions "01" and >>"BG". The chips are marked circa 1982. They have a Z80, som EPROM, a >>couple of PALs, and a 40 pin IDC header. They are half-height boards ( >>i.e. two sets of fingers). "LSI-11 Host Interface" is silk screened onto >>the board under the part number. >> >>Can anyone tell me what these are? They came out of an 11/23 box badged >>11-DM4, althought the box is in the truck and I may have the DM$ slightly >>incorrect. > >USDC= U.S. Design Corporation. They're based in Maryland, not too far >from where I now live. They sold (among other things) disk subsystems. >The one you have emulates RK06/RK07 drives, and hooked (via the 40 >pin connector) to an external box that had a hard drive (either a 5.25" MFM >or a 8" non-MFM) with electronics that converted the native >drive interface to the 40-pin interface. You might have seen the >appropriate drive boxes in my storage space in Surrey, if you remember >our trip there :-). They're 5.25" rack-width boxes, have black fronts with >a row of bar LED's that blink in a cylon patterm when running, and are about >25" deep - you ought to head back out to UBC and see if there are any >USDC boxes meeting this description there. I still have the drives and >the interfaces, but it's been years since I've powered them up. > >The controller is 22-bit-Qbus capable, but the PDP-11 OS's only know of >Unibus RK06's/07's, so machines with more than 256kbytes of memory >generally had USDC patches made to the OS drivers so they knew how to >do DMA to high memory. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > > ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 21 16:36:37 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... In-Reply-To: <990421163443.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > *My* gauge of when the PC became the dominant force was when: > 1. Dr. Dobb's started carrying few articles other than ones talking about > MS-DOS > and > 2. The quantity of PC-Clone ads in the back of BYTE outinched the > number of S-100 ads > Looking at my back issues, I'd draw the line at 1985. Did Dr. Dobb's and Byte really represent the mainstream? How about something even more subjective: IBM PC became the dominant force when, ... The fun went out of the industry. Who can assign dates to when the industry lost its sense of humor? Such as: when Kentucky Fried Computer became NorthStar? when Thinker Toys became Morrow Designs? when Intergalactic Digital Research became Digital Research Inc.? From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 21 16:47:42 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... In-Reply-To: <199904212131.PAA15167@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > > > C64/Amiga/Mac/Apple2/Atari/etc market. The last survivor was the Radio Shack > > > Color Computer - sort of appropriate, since they marketed the first personal > > > computer in the TRS-80 model 1. Note that this also is strictly the US market. > > > > Bahahaha. Ok, come clean: you were really joking, right? > > Heh. No. I got my first PC in 1990. 386s had just come out, but an XT was > still a useful machine because nothing really made use of 32 bit computing > at the time. Its CGA graphics were grossly inferior to the Commodore 64 > I sold to get it, and it had no sound at all except a few pathetic beeps. No, I was referring to your comment of the TRS-80 M1 being the "first personal computer". We won't argue about the definition of "personal computer", but for the sake of this discussion, the Apple ][ and Commodore PET were both introduced in April 1977 at the first West Coast Computer Faire. The TRS-80 M1 was introduced in August of 1977. Of course, the Sol-20 predated all three by almost a year. > At the time software was just starting to be made that wasn't also immidately > ported to the apple2 and commodore platforms, and the mac software world was > starting to really pick up. In 1990 almost no new software was being made for the Apple ][. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Wed Apr 21 16:57:40 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... Message-ID: <990421175740.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> >> *My* gauge of when the PC became the dominant force was when: >> 1. Dr. Dobb's started carrying few articles other than ones talking about >> MS-DOS >> and >> 2. The quantity of IBM PC ads in the back of BYTE outinched the >> number of S-100 ads >> Looking at my back issues, I'd draw the line at 1985. >Did Dr. Dobb's and Byte really represent the mainstream? Dr. Dobb's in the early 80's kind-of split itself between dedicated hobbyists and professional (business-based, usually) microcomputer programmers, with a lot of influence from the mini world. BYTE was really wide-ranging, and actually did a pretty good job at covering not only what the current hot seller was, but also exploring into the nooks and crannies of the industry as new things came out. *Both* lost most of their variety when the IBM PC and early clones steamrolled through. >How about something even more subjective: >IBM PC became the dominant force when, ... >The fun went out of the industry. That's kind-of-sort-of the same thing :-(. >Who can assign dates to when the industry lost its sense of humor? Such >as: when Kentucky Fried Computer became NorthStar? > when Thinker Toys became Morrow Designs? > when Intergalactic Digital Research became Digital Research Inc.? The DRI change was before 1976 by a year or two, I believe. My first copy of CP/M (1.3) says "Digital Research" under Gary Kildall's signature on the license, and that's from 1976. Wasn't there also "Itty Bitty Machines" which was forced to change its name when leaned on by a slightly larger company with similar initials? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Apr 21 16:59:48 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 21, 1999 02:47:42 PM Message-ID: <199904212159.PAA15298@calico.litterbox.com> > > No, I was referring to your comment of the TRS-80 M1 being the "first > personal computer". We won't argue about the definition of "personal > computer", but for the sake of this discussion, the Apple ][ and Commodore > PET were both introduced in April 1977 at the first West Coast Computer > Faire. The TRS-80 M1 was introduced in August of 1977. Really? I stand corrected then. I always assumed the TRS-80 came out before the A2 and the PET. And I should have specified first commercially sold ready-to-use personal computer. And I might have been wrong even with that. Would you believe first computer I ever saw for sale? :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Apr 21 17:03:34 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... In-Reply-To: <990421175740.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990421150334.00943140@mail.sfu.ca> At 05:57 PM 21/04/99 -0400, you wrote: >Wasn't there also "Itty Bitty Machines" which was forced to change >its name when leaned on by a slightly larger company with similar initials? Reminds me of the clever entrepreneur of the lates 80s, Gill Bates from Macrosoft. Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 21 17:05:29 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... In-Reply-To: <199904212159.PAA15298@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > > No, I was referring to your comment of the TRS-80 M1 being the "first > > personal computer". We won't argue about the definition of "personal > > computer", but for the sake of this discussion, the Apple ][ and Commodore > > PET were both introduced in April 1977 at the first West Coast Computer > > Faire. The TRS-80 M1 was introduced in August of 1977. > > Really? I stand corrected then. I always assumed the TRS-80 came out before > the A2 and the PET. And I should have specified first commercially sold > ready-to-use personal computer. And I might have been wrong even with that. Yes, you would have, as the Apple ][ and PET match that description as well. Even the Sol-20. Check this excellent timeline out for updating your microcomputer history knowledge: http://www1.islandnet.com/~kpolsson/comphist.htm Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From KFergason at aol.com Wed Apr 21 17:05:13 1999 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <97fdc7b6.244fa599@aol.com> In a message dated 4/21/99 4:20:10 PM Central Daylight Time, dastar@ncal.verio.com writes: > Is this a challenge of some sort? The comment I made was referring to > Richard's overall outlook on computer development throughout the past two > and a half decades. But as far as SC/MP based computers go, the next time > I visit my warehouse I'll take take note of the singleboard SC/MP > computers I have. > > In the meantime, Hans will tell you about the ones he has in his > collection. > call it what you will. I simply asked for a name. Kelly From KFergason at aol.com Wed Apr 21 17:06:59 1999 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... Message-ID: <2c5265b6.244fa603@aol.com> In a message dated 4/21/99 4:33:49 PM Central Daylight Time, jim@calico.litterbox.com writes: > Heh. No. I got my first PC in 1990. 386s had just come out, but an XT was 386's came out in 1986. Kelly From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 15:42:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: more chording keyboards In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 21, 99 02:33:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1057 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/03aa750c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 15:45:00 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <199904211854.OAA04118@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Apr 21, 99 02:54:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 442 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/e4aa9a35/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 15:48:52 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:26 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990421150538.010c2c40@vpwisfirewall> from "John Foust" at Apr 21, 99 03:05:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 782 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/18dee8b0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 15:51:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <002301be8c33$d2cca400$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 21, 99 02:16:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 862 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/9274ada4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 15:54:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Apr 21, 99 01:23:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 578 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/e19a2d89/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Apr 21 17:39:47 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... In-Reply-To: <2c5265b6.244fa603@aol.com> from "KFergason@aol.com" at Apr 21, 1999 06:06:59 PM Message-ID: <199904212239.QAA15492@calico.litterbox.com> > > In a message dated 4/21/99 4:33:49 PM Central Daylight Time, > jim@calico.litterbox.com writes: > > > Heh. No. I got my first PC in 1990. 386s had just come out, but an XT > was > > 386's came out in 1986. > > Kelly > Argh. Nevermind. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 21 17:40:19 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <199904212042.OAA14927@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: The first computer that I bought was a TRS-80 (they were NOT called "Model 1" in those days). To ME, the "first PCs" were S100. But that stuff is all subjective! EVERYBODY has a certain point in time representing the first personal computer that they saw advertised that THEY seriously considered buying. (sometimes slightly preceeding the first one that they BOUGHT). THAT point in time is what they associate with "the FIRST PC". There is normally an acknowledgement that there EXISTED other machines before that, but those were "not really USABLE yet." And therefore, "don't count". I was well aware of the existence of other previous machines, but they didn't really count for me until S100. Therefore, "generic S100" was the "FIRST PC" in MY timeline. But the TRS-80 was the first one in my price range. After lusting after multi-thousand dollar machines for a while, I was able to get a new TRS-80 for $399 (by skipping their monitor and recorder). I didn't know how to get an Apple for <$1K. That point in time will certainly vary from one person to another. But that basic understanding of what is meant by "the FIRST PC" is why so many of the PC-Week type of "timeline"s start with the AT, Lotus, and WordPervert. (There was a guy on CM a while back who was attributing the development of the 640K boundary and memory mapped video to Lotus!) And it is why "history"s by folks like Cringely will normally closely follow their personal interests, and barely notice other branches that they hadn't been interested in at the time. So, DRI dropped "Intergalctic" before the IBM PC. C'mon folks, there must be SOME way that I can blame IBM for the loss of humor in microcomputers! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 21 18:05:27 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <199904212305.AA22534@world.std.com> from "KFergason@aol.com" at Apr 21, 99 04:56:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 82 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990421/21f897ab/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 21 18:28:31 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > The first computer that I bought was a TRS-80 (they were NOT called "Model > 1" in those days). To ME, the "first PCs" were S100. But that stuff is > all subjective! > > EVERYBODY has a certain point in time representing the first personal > computer that they saw advertised that THEY seriously considered buying. > (sometimes slightly preceeding the first one that they BOUGHT). THAT > point in time is what they associate with "the FIRST PC". Ok, you asked for it. http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml This should answer the question "What was the first personal computer?" once and for all. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From donm at cts.com Wed Apr 21 18:30:36 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Oh, the expression is definitely american. The AA5 were the 12ba6, 12be6, > > > 35w4, 50b5 and the 12at6. British and Euro names for the same tubes could be > > ^^^^ Wasn't it 50L6? > > > There were various versions, I think, using valves with different bases > but which were electically similar. The 12BE6/12BA6/12AT6/50B5/35W4 were > 7 pin miniatures (B7G base in the UK). IIRC the octal line-up was > 12(S)K8/12(S)K7/12(S)Q7/50L6/35Z4??? The 12K8, etc had top cap > connections, the 12SK8 etc were 'single ended' and had all connections > made through base pins. > > -tony You are right, of course. I was thinking of the octal series. - don From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 21 18:34:14 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <002801be8c51$633c7a20$0100c0a8@fuj03> History ran a different course from where I sit. In 1985, the R65C02 was in almost every new communications product I saw, e.g. FAX machines, though many had a custom device. Those custom devices in many cases had a 65C02 core. Rockwell pushed it into those applications by making many of their other parts "friendly" to the 650x core. The 805x was a mite slow out of the blocks, and in '85, it was real but not appealing and certainly not taking much business from the Z-80 or 650x because its price was still WAY too high. It was, however, a single-chip device . . . There's this old military saying, that "where you sit determines what you see." Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 5:17 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing > >One of the first commercial lorans had it! it was big in embedded circles >that needed some oomph or were replacing ti990 minis. > > >You didn't look hard. It was popular in embedded apps at the low end as it >was cheap and easy to code for. > > >For the consumer market? Well, that's what we're discussing, isn't it? >In the 1981 to 1982 timeframe: > > 808x was getting into embeeded apps and there were few general computer apps for it. > > Z8000 series were getting in to military boxes. > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 21 18:38:15 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <002901be8c51$640d85c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> I just never considered a computer a useful tool if you couldn't use it until you rebuilt it (hardware or software). That was the case with the early TI home computer boxes. They had totally unexploited potential for a long time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 2:36 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> For the longest time, the TMS 9900 didn't appear in anything one could >> consider a reasonable computer. There was one model I saw at a colleagues >> home which had expansion capability, but he often complained that cards for >> interesting applications, like mass storage, etc, were not available. I >> didn't pursue it and so I believe(d) it to be true. I saw one ad for an >> SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was >> not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor >> was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now >> of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I >> ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. > >Richard, the rest of the world does not peer through the same blinders you have on. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 21 18:47:54 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... Message-ID: <002a01be8c51$649cf480$0100c0a8@fuj03> >10 years? >Does this imply that the PC was not the dominant force until the end of the 80s? > No, I'd say it was a force to be reckoned with from the first day it appeared, but it was several years before a reasonably useful suite of software was available at a reasonable price. The Z-80 and Apple-II continued to be a force in the marketplace until the late '80's. By 1988, the PC was completely dominant in the general purpose microcomputer market, with the exception of the desktop publishing market, which the Apple MacIntosh, in case you've forgotten about it, had pretty well dominated up to the release of Windows 3.0. The appearance of WIndows 3.0 got the MAC people to look at the pricetag for the first time. Up to then there had been few WYSIWYG graphics tools for the PC. Once the PC started showing up with WYSIWYG graphics applications, the MAC's days were numbered. This could have been fixed with a timely price cut, but that wasn't forthcoming. I even had pretty decent cross-development tools for the PC, yet continued using my CP/M tools until about 1987. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 2:38 PM Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982, there were few other processors >> than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A and >> the 8085, of course. > >In it's first couple of years, the IBM PC (introduced 8/11/1981) sold >enough machines that surely the 8088 could have been said to be in popular >use! >[this is a comment about market, NOT an endorsement] > >> The majority of home computers, though, used one of >> these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 in >> commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as the >> Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the IBM-PC >> and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp. > >10 years? >Does this imply that the PC was not the dominant force until the end of >the 80s? >[this is a comment about market, NOT an endorsement] > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Apr 21 18:57:28 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <199904212305.AA22534@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990421165610.00cde680@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 07:05 PM 4/21/99 -0400, Allison J Parent wrote: >Not that I'm aware of. Check out : http://www.ramtron.com/products/serial.htm These guys make core memory in silicon... --Chuck From rcini at email.msn.com Wed Apr 21 17:48:43 1999 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: Programming fixtures for Panasonic HHC Message-ID: <00e501be8c52$16b01d00$6522fed0@office1> Hello, all: A friend of mine has a small quantity (~30) of adapters to enable one to program the EPROMs used in the Panasonic HHC with a standard EPROM programmer. The adaptor houses the 8K eprom, most commonly used is the MCM68764 by Motorola, but a special crimping device is used on the chips before they can seat in the HHC proper. If this was not the case, you wouldn't need the special insertion socket to burn chips, you would be able to seat the eproms directly into the ZIF sockets on the programmer being used. These adapters were supposedly hand-crafted for the purpose. Asking price is $15@ plus shipping from New Jersey. If anyone needs more details, e-mail me privately and I can hook you up with the guy selling them. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Apr 21 19:02:02 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Apr 21, 1999 04:28:31 pm" Message-ID: <199904220002.AAA05391@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > Ok, you asked for it. > > http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml > > This should answer the question "What was the first personal computer?" > once and for all. > Ah, but what was the first Microcomputer (including at least a monitor with bitmap display, some sort of disk or floppy drive, as standard features, and 'personal' in nature)? Or what would your definition of Micocomputer be? I suppose we have to establish that first. graphic monitor and floppy drive, with hard drive optional, would seem a good start. -Lawrence LeMay From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 21 19:09:15 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... Message-ID: <007101be8c54$5e192400$0100c0a8@fuj03> In '76 a couple of my friends and I were ogling at ads for Alpha Micro and some self-contained Z-80-based unit from CompuTrol or some such manufacturer. The latter had a built in display and printer, though I don't recall what kind of display and printer. It might have been an EPN9120-based printer, but it appeared it was a small CRT from the ads. It might have been a small, e.g. 20-character alpha-numeric LED display, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 4:09 PM Subject: Re: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... >> >> No, I was referring to your comment of the TRS-80 M1 being the "first >> personal computer". We won't argue about the definition of "personal >> computer", but for the sake of this discussion, the Apple ][ and Commodore >> PET were both introduced in April 1977 at the first West Coast Computer >> Faire. The TRS-80 M1 was introduced in August of 1977. > >Really? I stand corrected then. I always assumed the TRS-80 came out before >the A2 and the PET. And I should have specified first commercially sold >ready-to-use personal computer. And I might have been wrong even with that. >Would you believe first computer I ever saw for sale? :) > > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? >----------------------------------------------------------------------- From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Apr 21 19:23:04 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: Is this an 11/44 or 11/34? In-Reply-To: <199904211845.OAA04075@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> References: <4.1.19990421125648.00a532b0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19990421200605.00a69a20@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 02:45 PM 4/21/99 -0400, Bill Pechter said something like: >> Briefly, which are the NPG jumper pin numbers again? > >If my foggy brain cells work. > >CA1-CB1 Okay, I'll check them sometime soon. > >> >> Any other jumpers or ww connections I should check out? I'm not blessed >> with a complete set of printsets and/or tech manuals so some important tips >> may not be found by me. I've been trapped by problems caused by lack of >> correct or detailed info on this already. >> >> Thanks much. Regards, Chris > >If you get into trouble holler. I may have an 11/34 pocket guide Thanks muchly! >somewhere. My 11/34 printsets hit the trash when I got married 6 years >ago. (damn> Marriage did that to you Bill??! Beverly thinks my stuff (*especially* the old radio collection and library) is just fine provided it is out of the normal living areas of the house. I can't complain about her thoughts regarding that of course. My problem is getting the two collections all stuffed into the attic, basement shop area, extra room used as a library/study, the back garage (a 2nd garage separate from the house) and a corner of the attached garage. When Hans and Christine F. were here last fall before VCF II they had seen only a small part of everything! And I'm still trying to get everything I plan to keep shoehorned into "my areas". It's slow going to haul everything a Jeep-load at a time and fit it in. I wish I was fortunate like Sellam or Philip B. in having a cheep-cheep storage area! I can't pay for storage long-term until I get a decent job and pay off some bills :( I just gotta cut back the collections somewhat. > >Does this machine have battery backup? No, it doesn't. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 21 19:24:41 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: Programming fixtures for Panasonic HHC In-Reply-To: <00e501be8c52$16b01d00$6522fed0@office1> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > A friend of mine has a small quantity (~30) of adapters to enable one to > program the EPROMs used in the Panasonic HHC with a standard EPROM > programmer. The adaptor houses the 8K eprom, most commonly used is the > MCM68764 by Motorola, but a special crimping device is used on the chips > before they can seat in the HHC proper. If this was not the case, you > wouldn't need the special insertion socket to burn chips, you would be able > to seat the eproms directly into the ZIF sockets on the programmer being > used. > > These adapters were supposedly hand-crafted for the purpose. Asking > price is $15@ plus shipping from New Jersey. Is this that Mike guy by any chance? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Apr 21 19:25:57 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <199904220002.AAA05391@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Ah, but what was the first Microcomputer (including at least a monitor with > bitmap display, some sort of disk or floppy drive, as standard features, > and 'personal' in nature)? > > Or what would your definition of Micocomputer be? I suppose we have to > establish that first. graphic monitor and floppy drive, with hard drive > optional, would seem a good start. Forget it. Its a waste of time. Really. There are better things to be discussing. This issue hasn't been resolved in the past, and it never will be, as long as humans choose to have differing opinions. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Apr 21 19:42:12 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 CPU Configuration In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990421125648.00a532b0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19990421203133.00a6ade0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:26 PM 4/21/99 +0100, Tony Duell said something like: >> That's where I'm at with my 11/34A, a slow-moving project. Seems when I put >> the project aside a couple of weeks before Megan started work on hers, the > >You're in good company. It took me over a month from getting my first >11/45 to turning the key for the first time. And I didn't have anything >else to do. I was reading printsets, figuring out what everything did, >etc. Took me another month after that to have it run a program... > >> bus was hanging for some reason. I've got to find and check the bus grant > >Open grants are the most likely cause of this. > >To start with, just use the CPU backplane (you can get the CPU, one >memory board and a DL11-W in it, which is all you need to start with) and Yep, that's what I'm thinking of . . . >keep the M9302 terminator out as well (you can put in an M930 if you have Hmmm, haven't left out the M9302 as I thought it *must* be in, even in minimal config as pointed out above, for proper termination no matter what. I have no M930 or M9300. >one). If it works now, but hangs with the M9302 in the last slot, then >it's almost certainly a grant problem. > >> Briefly, which are the NPG jumper pin numbers again? > >CA1-CB1 on an SPC slot. Got it. Thanks so far . . . You just might get me to steal some time from what I really *must* be doing to get the old house cleared out to sell and use it to fiddle with the 34A ;) Maybe this weekend. Friday is supposed to be rainy and crappy outside so maybe then. An appropriate Bavarian expression is what I want to use here but have no idea of the spelling as Bayerische is not a written language :) (Es ist Schou mul-moi Hans??) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Wed Apr 21 19:48:07 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s Message-ID: <990421204807.20c00ad6@trailing-edge.com> >Or what would your definition of Micocomputer be? I suppose we have to >establish that first. graphic monitor and floppy drive, with hard drive >optional, would seem a good start. By those standards, even an IBM 5150 (aka "IBM PC") wasn't even a microcomputer. I think that sort of definition is way too narrow. Then a gain, I despise most any kind of exclusionary definition. But that doesn't leave one with much in the way of definitions left, does it? :-). I *do* like the web page that Sam pointed out ( http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml ). I may not agree with the final positive, but I do agree with all the previous negatives :-). And that Arkay CT-560 looks pretty nifty! Tim. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 21 21:05:26 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: SUN tape drive was RE: Sun 1 question In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990421125015.234fa494@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990421210526.45378a38@intellistar.net> Aaron, OK now how the hell do I get it out to find out what's in there? Joe At 01:27 PM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >The 411 is just the box. Mine has an Archive Viper QIC-150 in it that I >use with an Emulex MT-02 controller. You'll have to take a look inside to >see what you've got in there. Under SunOS, you should be able to access >this as device st[devnum]. Check the man page for "st" for some more info. > >Aaron > >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > >> I just picked up a SUN model 411 tape drive PN 595-1711-03. I can't find it >> in the SUN FAQ , does anyone have any info on it? >> >> Joe >> > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 21 21:11:42 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990421144544.4697b030@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990421211142.22d7c97e@intellistar.net> At 11:52 AM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > >> I'd go with a pickup load of $$$ and come back with several loads of junk, >> er, umm, stuff. Good thing I'm on the wrong side of the country. > >Hans Franke came all the way from Germany last year and bought a truck >load of stuff, so what's stopping you (besides sanity)? > >(Unfortunately, that truckload of stuff ended up taking up valuable space >in my closet...some people just don't know their limits :) LOL! At least he can say he owns it even if it's in a different country! Joe From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Apr 21 20:44:14 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990421213611.00a46ad0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 04:28 PM 4/21/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail said something like: -- snip -- >Ok, you asked for it. > >http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml Thanls for the URL! > >This should answer the question "What was the first personal computer?" >once and for all. Well, that's certainly an understatement Sellam! This seems to be a well researched trail leading up to the Simon, IMO. However, any good guess as to how many Simons were actually made and successfully run from the over 400 plan sets sold? Any known to exist now? To try to solve that First Microcomputer question, a set of attributes must first be set just like the set was to determine the 1st PC as shown in the above URL. Methinks that will be a bit troublesome as nobody seemed to agree on that during the last go-around of discussing the 1st Microcomputer here awhile back. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From max82 at surfree.com Wed Apr 21 19:47:56 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: Now OT: Re: Roman numerals In-Reply-To: <990421171220.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM wrote: >OTOH, if we all used Roman Numerals for data storage still, there would >be no Y2K problem due to "extra" digits! Also, one only needs three bits to represent a roman numeral, so we could save a bit of RAM for every digit for some encodings. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From max82 at surfree.com Wed Apr 21 19:54:03 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: more chording keyboards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >Well, what it's useful for often depends on how the chords are assigned. In other words, you feel that there is no way in which the chording approach is worse than the regular keyboard? The reason why I ask is that I've read an article about Doug Engelbart where he was quoted as saying that it has its advantages. I'm planning to design a specialized home computer which will have a keyboard, mouse, and cat (Chording ATtachment). --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 21:03:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 CPU Configuration In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990421203133.00a6ade0@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Apr 21, 99 08:42:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 467 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990422/8f749d23/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 21:05:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: more chording keyboards In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 21, 99 08:54:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 693 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990422/b47d7583/attachment.ksh From gregorym at cadvision.com Wed Apr 21 21:37:22 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: Saving *BIG* Old Iron... Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990421203720.0070e040@cadvision.com> This seems very melancholy to me. Delightful that you're there to preserve the machines for posterity, but sad that prodcutive machines are being shut down after long service. "Farewell, o' good and faithful servant". Cheers, Mark. At 01:37 PM 4/21/99 -0400, you wrote: > >It looks like everything is coming together... We have a team >assembled (compiled?) to decommission and move a set of KS10 >decsystem-10 36-bit machines and the move happens this weekend! > >I was in attendance earlier today as the machines were shut >down for the final time where they have been for quite a few >years. I got a picture of the final systat screen, and they >stopped timesharing... > >We then got busy unloading and shutting down all the disk drives. >I then shut down the individual boxes and power controllers for >the system cabinets and isolated the cabling (they had LOTS of >terminal cables). I then raised all the stabilizing feet and >used a tie-wrap to attach the panel keys inside the cabinet. I >then closed and latched the front doors. I also did the same >for the tape drive cabinets. They're all rolling free and ready >to go. > >On friday, we'll be pre-staging all the disk drives, and on >saturday we load-out to trucks. > >I'll be taking more pictures as we go along... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > From gregorym at cadvision.com Wed Apr 21 21:43:51 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990421204350.0070d664@cadvision.com> Now I know that many people didn't consider it a reasonable computer, but the TMS-9900 did make a memorable appearance in the TI-99/4/4A of blessed memory - 16K if I recall correctly. Once you added a PEB, RS-232 card, 32 K memory card, 2 HH DS/SD floppies and an Extended Basic cartidge, it was a fine computer. So bite your tongue. Cheers, Mark "They'll pry my TI out of my cold, dead hands" Gregory At 02:16 PM 4/21/99 -0600, you wrote: >For the longest time, the TMS 9900 didn't appear in anything one could >consider a reasonable computer. There was one model I saw at a colleagues >home which had expansion capability, but he often complained that cards for >interesting applications, like mass storage, etc, were not available. I >didn't pursue it and so I believe(d) it to be true. I saw one ad for an >SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was >not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor >was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now >of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I >ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. > >Dick >-----Original Message----- >From: Hans Franke >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 2:10 PM >Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing > > >>> I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982, there were few other >processors >>> than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A >and >>> the 8085, of course. The majority of home computers, though, used one of >>> these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 >in >>> commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as >the >>> Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the >IBM-PC >>> and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp. >> >>in 1982, the 9900 was also big and beasts like SC/MP where still on >>the run (and 680xx, 808x and 160xx comming up), but you're right if >>you want to pich the two mayor player in the SOHO market. >> >>But still, a general measurement includes them. >> >>Gruss >>H. >> >>-- >>Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >>Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >>Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >>Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >>HRK > > > From mbg at world.std.com Wed Apr 21 21:50:45 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: Saving *BIG* Old Iron... Message-ID: <199904220250.AA04424@world.std.com> >This seems very melancholy to me. Delightful that you're there to >preserve the machines for posterity, but sad that prodcutive machines are >being shut down after long service. > >"Farewell, o' good and faithful servant". I know what you mean... I've read the story about the shutdown of a -10 system back in october of 82(?) which is on Tim Shoppa's ftp area... I wish I could have something as touching... What is sad about it is the fact that part of the reason the machines are being decomissioned is the person who cared for them apparently died recently of cancer... today's shutdown was part of the ongoing grieving process for the people who had been using them. It was difficult for them... They are, however, very glad that the machines won't simply be relegated to a trash heap somewhere... they're really glad that they will have new owners who will care for them and keep them running... So we don't have to say farewell to them, they wll find service. Part of that service will be to provide a base system against which some KS10 emulators which I know are being developed can be compared against. I also hope that someday we will be able to get them on the net and let others use them. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From gregorym at cadvision.com Wed Apr 21 21:55:24 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: more chording keyboards Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990421205523.00692210@cadvision.com> At 09:42 PM 4/21/99 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Hi, >> I still haven't built a chording keyboard, but I'd like to know, what are >> its advantages/disadvantages over a regular one? I realize the general >> differences, what I'm looking for is 'it would be great for typing >> because.., it would be awful for data entry because....' > >Well, what it's useful for often depends on how the chords are assigned. >I have a Microwriter Agenda, and it's quite difficult to type some of the >characters like '{' that are rarely used in English (but which are common >in programming). The one I built for my PERQ (hopefully) makes it easier >to type some of the common programming symbols (at the expense of making >some letters a little harder to type). > >The main advantage is that (a) they're very fast to use (once you learn >to use them, which I haven't) and (b) they can be used 1-handed. The >original idea (from Xerox IIRC) was that you used the chording pad with >one hand and the mouse with the other. I want to try a mouse with a >chording keypad built in, but I've not got round to making it. > >-tony > I thought that the chording keyboard was one of Doug Engelbart's innovations. I believe he envisioned them as a way to move through Cyberspace more efficently than with a mouse. So that would pre-date PARC, being at Arpa or at Tymshare. Mark. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 21 22:15:12 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s Message-ID: <199904220315.AA19880@world.std.com> from "Tony Duell" at Apr 22, 99 03:05:24 am Message-ID: <199904220319.UAA06768@saul9.u.washington.edu> > Yes... I found it very useful to have the normal keyboard as well on the > PERQ. Fortunately the PERQ keyboard interface is almost designed for > multiple keyboards :-). Correct me if I'm wrong -- in other words, the PERQ keyboard interface is almost not designed for a single type of keyboard. Or do you mean multiple keyboards at the same time? -- Derek From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Wed Apr 21 22:39:43 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: SUN tape drive was RE: Sun 1 question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990421210526.45378a38@intellistar.net> Message-ID: Hi Joe, Simple, once you know the trick. You have to push in hidden tabs through the holes in the side of the case. Stick a straightened paper-clip in the third hole from the back, second row down and lift the case off from the rear... BTW, if for some reason you need a replacement drive for it, let me know (I've got a couple doing dust-collection duty somewhere). Cheers, Aaron On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > Aaron, > > OK now how the hell do I get it out to find out what's in there? > > Joe > > At 01:27 PM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote: > >The 411 is just the box. Mine has an Archive Viper QIC-150 in it that I > >use with an Emulex MT-02 controller. You'll have to take a look inside to > >see what you've got in there. Under SunOS, you should be able to access > >this as device st[devnum]. Check the man page for "st" for some more info. > > > >Aaron > > > >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > > > >> I just picked up a SUN model 411 tape drive PN 595-1711-03. I can't find it > >> in the SUN FAQ , does anyone have any info on it? > >> > >> Joe > >> > > > > > From KFergason at aol.com Wed Apr 21 22:48:37 1999 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: In a message dated 4/21/99 6:09:47 PM Central Daylight Time, allisonp@world.std.com writes: > <(note, I believe one existed, but memory is fuzzy till i get home to > > Not including the three sold by National Semi or the ones that used the > 8073 SC/MP with a internal rom tiny basic(also sold be national)??? > > Allison > Yes, not including any by NS. I know they produced boards, just like most manufacturers did. DigiKey had something in their catalogs, but its been so long, I don't remember exactly what it was. (maybe just reselling the NS stuff?) Kelly From jpero at cgocable.net Wed Apr 21 23:07:55 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: VME? related to College search. In-Reply-To: References: <199904090521.BAA12114@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgocable.net" at Apr 9, 99 01:26:35 am Message-ID: <199904220402.AAA20231@mail.cgocable.net> What's about this VME and programming on that 68000 type? Don't anyone have graphics of VME stuff like cages, cards, VME equipments? And how common is this out in that canadian field? I see that in my college electronic engineering technology course info by Algonquin College in canada within Ottawa, Ontario. Other college St. Lawerence College offers same type of course but uses x86 and pc type circuits in their courses which in my opinion bit shortsighted and lacks "commerical" areas compared to Algonquin's. Keep your thoughts freely flowing! Thanks Wizard From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 21 23:43:30 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <002501be8c7a$ac411e00$0100c0a8@fuj03> The TI computers in general were a bit off center in a number of ways. They certainly had potential which was under utilized, I suspect, because of a strange way of interfacing to their video subsystem. Lacking an OS and the usual assortment of non-game (carefully not using words like "serious" or "real-world" or . . .) software applications was a bit of a hindrance, though. I ws never interested in the TI stuff for my own use, as it didn't offer anything I didn't already have with other systems. I looked into their 9980 (single chipper) for a while. It turned out not to be much of an improvement over the 8748 for which I'd already done all the requisite suffering, so that's what I used. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mark Gregory To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 8:52 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >Now I know that many people didn't consider it a reasonable computer, but >the TMS-9900 did make a memorable appearance in the TI-99/4/4A of blessed >memory - 16K if I recall correctly. Once you added a PEB, RS-232 card, 32 K >memory card, 2 HH DS/SD floppies and an Extended Basic cartidge, it was a >fine computer. > >So bite your tongue. > >Cheers, >Mark "They'll pry my TI out of my cold, dead hands" Gregory > >At 02:16 PM 4/21/99 -0600, you wrote: >>For the longest time, the TMS 9900 didn't appear in anything one could >>consider a reasonable computer. There was one model I saw at a colleagues >>home which had expansion capability, but he often complained that cards for >>interesting applications, like mass storage, etc, were not available. I >>didn't pursue it and so I believe(d) it to be true. I saw one ad for an >>SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was >>not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor >>was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now >>of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I >>ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. >> >>Dick >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Hans Franke >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >>Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 2:10 PM >>Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >> >> >>>> I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982, there were few other >>processors >>>> than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A >>and >>>> the 8085, of course. The majority of home computers, though, used one of >>>> these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 >>in >>>> commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as >>the >>>> Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the >>IBM-PC >>>> and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp. >>> >>>in 1982, the 9900 was also big and beasts like SC/MP where still on >>>the run (and 680xx, 808x and 160xx comming up), but you're right if >>>you want to pich the two mayor player in the SOHO market. >>> >>>But still, a general measurement includes them. >>> >>>Gruss >>>H. >>> >>>-- >>>Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >>>Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >>>Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >>>Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >>>HRK >> >> >> From ddameron at earthlink.net Wed Apr 21 21:20:20 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... In-Reply-To: References: <199904212159.PAA15298@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990421212020.377fd03e@earthlink.net> At 03:05 PM 4/21/99 -0700, Sam wrote: >Check this excellent timeline out for updating your microcomputer history >knowledge: > >http://www1.islandnet.com/~kpolsson/comphist.htm Here's another one describing many (micro)computers: Including 2901's, 6502, Moto's 1 bit, etc. http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~csclub/museum/cpu.html > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > -Dave From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Apr 22 01:06:23 1999 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: Saving *BIG* Old Iron... In-Reply-To: <199904220250.AA04424@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Megan wrote: > So we don't have to say farewell to them, they wll find service. > Part of that service will be to provide a base system against > which some KS10 emulators which I know are being developed can > be compared against. > > I also hope that someday we will be able to get them on the > net and let others use them. These two are _fabulous_ goals. Please keep us appraised of the current status as you make the moves! I've been looking forward to further work on the KS10 emulators myself, not having much time to contribute code :/ Thanks for keeping us up to date! > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer -Seth From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 22 01:31:12 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <990421204807.20c00ad6@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM wrote: > I *do* like the web page that Sam pointed out > ( http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml ). I may not agree with the > final positive, but I do agree with all the previous negatives :-). > And that Arkay CT-560 looks pretty nifty! That's Doug Salot's (Yowza) creation. What about his assertion don't you agree with? I think he's right on the mark. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 22 01:45:50 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:14:18 -0700) References: (allisonp@world.std.com) Message-ID: <19990422064550.20126.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mike wrote: > Perhaps a > smaller array, but with LARGE cores where the magnetic state could have > some visual indicators. How would that work? Would you have an LED for each bit or something? From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 22 01:50:03 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <19990422065003.20182.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > Mike, PCI is 33mhz and core at best is 1mhz tthat would eb an expensive > slow joke. Not many PCI devices can support random reads in fewer than four to five clock cycles. A core memory board would just take more cycles. So what? Why is hooking up a small core memory to PCI any more of a joke than building it in 1999 in general? As I recall, you proposed making about 256 bytes. It's not like you're going to be able to run an operating system out of it on *any* machine, modern or classic. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 22 02:04:18 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990421165610.00cde680@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:57:28 -0700) References: <4.1.19990421165610.00cde680@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <19990422070418.20237.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > Check out : http://www.ramtron.com/products/serial.htm > These guys make core memory in silicon... No, it isn't. It's called "ferroelectric RAM", but it is not ferromagnetic, and doesn't use anything physically resembling cores. The name "ferroelectric effect" is in point of fact a misnomer. The interesting thing about FE RAM is that it not only has a limited write endurance, but also a limited read endurance. After you read a bit too many times, that bit is worn out. Last I heard they were spec'ing the read endurance in the billions, which makes it OK as a replacement for disk or flash memory, but not as a replacement for normal RAM. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 22 02:13:48 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <199904220002.AAA05391@thorin.cs.umn.edu> (message from Lawrence LeMay on Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:02:02 -0500 (CDT)) References: <199904220002.AAA05391@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <19990422071348.20276.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Ah, but what was the first Microcomputer (including at least a monitor with > bitmap display, some sort of disk or floppy drive, as standard features, > and 'personal' in nature)? Since you've ruled out vector displays, the earliest one I used was a PDP-8/e with a VT8-E raster display interface and an RK02 disk (or was it RK03?). First available in 1971 if memory serves, though I didn't use it until the late 70s. From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Apr 21 23:13:29 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: more chording keyboards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I still haven't built a chording keyboard, but I'd like to know, what are >its advantages/disadvantages over a regular one? I realize the general >differences, what I'm looking for is 'it would be great for typing >because.., it would be awful for data entry because....' Some Apple brand keyboard allow half a dozen keys to be pressed at the same time with each up / down recognized. This allows stuff like cmd-shift-power (reboot) or some long ones I forget using about 5 keys to make some obscure choice. Cheap keyboards get confused when too many things happen at the same time. From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Apr 21 23:20:32 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Mike, PCI is 33mhz and core at best is 1mhz tthat would eb an expensive >slow joke. > >Cores large enough for visual indication of magnetic field would be in the >10-20AMPS select curent range. Not a real possibility. Maybe so, but those are practicality issues, not feasibility. From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 22 01:05:04 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <199904201041.MAA16077@horus.mch.sni.de> References: Message-ID: >> Some things in this contest that sound reasonable to me; > >> Input and output are to memory resident buffers. > >> Inline code is too boring, and subrountine calling too important, so the >> "task" should require perhaps modules; maybe make the contest half a dozen >> subroutines which get called from a contest defined main program (using >> some typical non asm language like C or pascal). > >> Contest submissions could be a simple binary file, file length, predefined >> jump table for subroutines, the actual code. Some third party, can run the >> code and time it on the hardware of their choice. > >Nice, but with these things, like internas of the system for input/output, >binary and similarities, you tie again all down to a single system to >use - we loose the idea of a cross platform competition where only basic >processor features are measured (see also the subject). I don't see what you mean. By setting some basic format for the file structure you make it PORTABLE, not restricted. Each target system then can read the common format and arrange it however is best suited to that target system prior to execution of code. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 22 04:12:25 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:27 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990421213611.00a46ad0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > This seems to be a well researched trail leading up to the Simon, IMO. Yes, Doug did a fantastic job. > However, any good guess as to how many Simons were actually made and > successfully run from the over 400 plan sets sold? Any known to exist now? Doug is still looking for one, but he and another local Doug are looking into building one. They've acquired a nice pile of relays and are hoping to have one built by VCF 3.0 for exhibit. > To try to solve that First Microcomputer question, a set of attributes must > first be set just like the set was to determine the 1st PC as shown in the > above URL. Methinks that will be a bit troublesome as nobody seemed to > agree on that during the last go-around of discussing the 1st Microcomputer > here awhile back. Well, first what? First computer built around a microprocessor? That would probably be Intel's development machines. Or should it include an integrated CRT and keyboard? Or did it just have to have a serial interface for a terminal? Or are lights and switches good enough for output and input? Arguing firsts is mostly pointless because people have a problem agreeing on the definition. I vote for the F14 CADC computer, since it was built around what could be considered a "microprocessor" and was in production and flying in the F14 in 1970. http://www.microcomputerhistory.com Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 22 04:12:24 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <19990422064550.20126.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (message from Mike Ford on Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:14:18 -0700) Message-ID: >Mike wrote: >> Perhaps a >> smaller array, but with LARGE cores where the magnetic state could have >> some visual indicators. > >How would that work? Would you have an LED for each bit or something? Actually I was thinking closer to a solenoid, and the whole array with manual buttons that would need to be pressed, very hands on and see what happens. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 22 04:27:00 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:12:24 -0700) References: (message from Mike Ford on Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:14:18 -0700) Message-ID: <19990422092700.21087.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Actually I was thinking closer to a solenoid, and the whole array with > manual buttons that would need to be pressed, very hands on and see what > happens. So if you have a solenoid to indicate the status of each bit, you can do away with the core entirely. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 22 06:39:13 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <002901be8c51$640d85c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <199904220940.LAA02579@horus.mch.sni.de> > I just never considered a computer a useful tool if you couldn't use it > until you rebuilt it (hardware or software). That was the case with the > early TI home computer boxes. They had totally unexploited potential for a > long time. ?? The 99/4 was _way_ up to date at it's time. Ok, not for the keyboard, but Graphics, Colour and Basic were way ahead. especialy the Basic was kinf of a GEM to me - just, the price was inacceptable: 1400 Mark just for the core unit (I had at this time some 400 Mark per month (Army Pay :) - and even later, in a civilian Job, I started with 1700 DM/month). Compared to the 'professionall' systems at this time (Commi & TRS) it was like night and day - wher you needed enhancements of any king, you could start right from the scratch with the TI - and they have been at least 150% of the TI price (Personaly I selected an Apple, since I had seen one in action with graphics tablet and drawing software - a _very_ impressive setup at this time, but I never managed to get this configuration (at this time some 11.000 Mark) - I could only afford the naked 16K A2 at 3000 Mark via a bank credit :). Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 22 06:57:45 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: Now OT: Re: Roman numerals In-Reply-To: References: <990421171220.20c00aa3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199904220958.LAA05189@horus.mch.sni.de> > On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM wrote: > >OTOH, if we all used Roman Numerals for data storage still, there would > >be no Y2K problem due to "extra" digits! > Also, one only needs three bits to represent a roman numeral, so we could > save a bit of RAM for every digit for some encodings. Not if you want to use Numerals bigger than M. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From wrm at ccii.co.za Thu Apr 22 05:28:27 1999 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <199904221036.MAA02214@ccii.dockside.co.za> Hi all My name is Wouter, I'm new here, and I never throw anything away. Hi Wouter! :-) From: "Richard Erlacher" >I saw one ad for an >SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was >not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor >was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now >of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I >ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. http://ccii.dockside.co.za/~wrm/ccc.html Warning: pages in progress! Wouter From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 22 07:42:54 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <199904221036.MAA02214@ccii.dockside.co.za> Message-ID: <199904221043.MAA11468@horus.mch.sni.de> > My name is Wouter, I'm new here, and I never throw anything away. > Hi Wouter! :-) Hi , > >I saw one ad for an > >SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was > >not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor > >was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now > >of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I > >ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. > http://ccii.dockside.co.za/~wrm/ccc.html CUTE! H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 22 07:30:15 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <990422083015.20c00997@trailing-edge.com> Mike wrote: >> Perhaps a >> smaller array, but with LARGE cores where the magnetic state could have >> some visual indicators. >How would that work? Would you have an LED for each bit or something? Get a little bit away from magnetic storage, and you can use neon lamps as storage elements which are self-illuminating :-). Neon lamps - when powered by DC - have a nice memory property: They take about 90VDC to light up, but after they light up they'll stay on until the voltage drops below 60VDC or so. Only problems are: 1. The thresholds can vary greatly from unit to unit. 2. The thresholds will vary depending on ambient light, as well. Property 2 above can be used to build oscillators out of pairs of neons, as a matter of fact... Tim. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 22 08:39:38 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: SUN tape drive was RE: Sun 1 question In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990421210526.45378a38@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990422083938.22cfdc8c@intellistar.net> Aaron, Got it open. It has a Exabyte EXB-8505 drive in it. Don't know what I'll use it for. I haven't even been able to get my SUN IPC to boot yet. Thanks for the help. Joe At 08:39 PM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Joe, > >Simple, once you know the trick. You have to push in hidden tabs through >the holes in the side of the case. Stick a straightened paper-clip in the >third hole from the back, second row down and lift the case off from the >rear... > >BTW, if for some reason you need a replacement drive for it, let me know >(I've got a couple doing dust-collection duty somewhere). > >Cheers, > >Aaron > > >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > >> Aaron, >> >> OK now how the hell do I get it out to find out what's in there? >> >> Joe >> >> At 01:27 PM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >> >The 411 is just the box. Mine has an Archive Viper QIC-150 in it that I >> >use with an Emulex MT-02 controller. You'll have to take a look inside to >> >see what you've got in there. Under SunOS, you should be able to access >> >this as device st[devnum]. Check the man page for "st" for some more info. >> > >> >Aaron >> > >> >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: >> > >> >> I just picked up a SUN model 411 tape drive PN 595-1711-03. I can't find it >> >> in the SUN FAQ , does anyone have any info on it? >> >> >> >> Joe >> >> >> > >> > >> > > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 22 07:35:16 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <19990422064550.20126.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Mike wrote: > > Perhaps a > > smaller array, but with LARGE cores where the magnetic state could have > > some visual indicators. > > How would that work? Would you have an LED for each bit or something? > I can see providing a switch and a led for the circuit to set/clear the bit. But displaying it's magnetic state like a realy might is kinda out there. ;) Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 22 07:41:32 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <19990422065003.20182.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > > Not many PCI devices can support random reads in fewer than four to five > clock cycles. A core memory board would just take more cycles. So what? Because what would the point be for a pc with core and an access time of 1000 to 10,000ns per byte/word? not mentioning the array if hand made with logic and read amps would likely be bigger than the mother board. Windows would likely go belly up with memory delays like that. Of course the array would ahve to be howmany bits wide to support PCI? > It's not like you're going to be able to run an operating system out of it > on *any* machine, modern or classic. Nor out of 4k in a PDP-8 according to some. However with 256Words of core working building a simple TTL machine around it would be of some educational value. It is however snough space to run practical demonstration programs. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 22 07:49:22 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Cores large enough for visual indication of magnetic field would be in the > >10-20AMPS select curent range. Not a real possibility. > > Maybe so, but those are practicality issues, not feasibility. that answer equates to "whatever". Describe the mechanics of displaying the orientation of a magnetic field in a closed torus? I was trying to get someone to think on how thjis may be done impractical or not. I'm not talking about putting leds on the logig arond the cores to show states. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 22 07:52:37 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <19990422092700.21087.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > > Actually I was thinking closer to a solenoid, and the whole array with > > manual buttons that would need to be pressed, very hands on and see what > > happens. The logical error there is that a torid is a closed field and hence cannot operate a solinoid (open field). The magnetic path of a core is a closed loop. allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 22 07:58:01 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <990422083015.20c00997@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > take about 90VDC to light up, but after they light up they'll stay on > until the voltage drops below 60VDC or so. Only problems are: > > 1. The thresholds can vary greatly from unit to unit. > > 2. The thresholds will vary depending on ambient light, as well. Use pulse coupleing so each runs at it's range. Also I do have a basic design for a TTT machine using neons and 2d21 thyratrons. I feel personally that would be good for demonstrating some for the other forms of logic used. Then again someone would want that interfaced to PCI too. Allison From clintw at colorado.cirrus.com Thu Apr 22 08:03:46 1999 From: clintw at colorado.cirrus.com (Clint Wolff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <199904221303.HAA10053@ws2044.colorado.cirrus.com> > From allisonp@world.std.com Wed Apr 21 17:10:05 1999 > Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > Precedence: bulk > From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > Content-Length: 367 > X-Lines: 15 > > > Years. > > > Not a lot usually something in the 32-128byte range, maybe more. > > > Not that I'm aware of. > > Allison > > Actually, there are a few companys making FRAMs. Essentially they use a small amount of magnetic material to provide non-volatile storage. They may even be core shaped :) clint From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 22 08:07:06 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <990422090706.20c00aaa@trailing-edge.com> >> take about 90VDC to light up, but after they light up they'll stay on >> until the voltage drops below 60VDC or so. Only problems are: >> >> 1. The thresholds can vary greatly from unit to unit. >> >> 2. The thresholds will vary depending on ambient light, as well. >Use pulse coupleing so each runs at it's range. Also I do have a basic >design for a TTT machine using neons and 2d21 thyratrons. >I feel personally that would be good for demonstrating some for the other >forms of logic used. Absolutely - a lot about logic, especially pulse-coupled logic, is there to be learned. >Then again someone would want that interfaced to PCI too. Hmm - there's enough loopholes in the PCI spec already, maybe we can sneak 90V logic levels in? :-). Tim. From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Apr 22 08:08:17 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: VME? related to College search. In-Reply-To: <199904220402.AAA20231@mail.cgocable.net> References: <199904090521.BAA12114@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990422081651.00a80440@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:07 AM 4/22/99 -0400, jpero@cgocable.net said something like: >What's about this VME and programming on that 68000 type? If I understand your question, the VMEbus is a 32-bit microcomputer bus which is used primarily in industrial computers. Certain Sun products also used it but I defere to those experts for further Sun comment. VMEbus was invented by John Black and others at Motorola in 1983. Came from the now-obsolete VersaModule bus structure Moto had since I think the mid-70's. Basic form factor was the Eurocard with DIN 46xxx connector (can't recall DIN number at moment). Hence, VMEbus = VersaModule Eurocard bus. Quickly became a standardized bus protocol worldwide. Moto, Mostek and Philips were earliest suppliers of hardware. Others followed. Still somewhat popular and well supported today. The 68k processor family was the most used uP. However, Intel uP's, Moto's 88000 RISC uP, some Transputer devices and other uP's were also used in VMEbus module designs. A fairly recent extension of the VMEbus protocol, VME64, extends the bus to 64 bits. The physics community is a major user of VME64 nowadays. > >Don't anyone have graphics of VME stuff like cages, cards, VME Start by looking at this URL from eg3 which has a good list of VMEbus resources: http://www.eg3.com/indc/indcxvme.htm. VITA - The VMEBus International Trade Association, has a URL: http://www.vita.com/ . You could find more info and links there. >equipments? And how common is this out in that canadian field? Should be as common as it was in the States as it was found usually in embedded industrial control and data collection systems in factories, etc. Of course, the PeeCee stuff replaced some installations if the user wanted to move to or start his/her design using the Intel processor or go for a design 'on the cheap and dirty' as VMEbus products and s/w could be a bit pricey. Multibus I and II and, to a smaller extent, STDbus and G64 were competition to VMEbus. > >I see that in my college electronic engineering technology course >info by Algonquin College in canada within Ottawa, Ontario. > >Other college St. Lawerence College offers same type of course >but uses x86 and pc type circuits in their courses which in my >opinion bit shortsighted and lacks "commerical" areas compared to >Algonquin's. I agree. Algonquin is fine with including VMEbus and other industrial busses in their course structure. PeeCee could be included but for critical real time apps it should be stated that VMEbus and its board products and OS's are one the several non-PeeCee systems which really shine. > >Keep your thoughts freely flowing! Yeah, well the on topic ones are fine from us, but . . . ;) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 22 10:46:44 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: VME? related to College search. In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990422081651.00a80440@206.231.8.2> References: <199904220402.AAA20231@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199904221347.PAA08672@horus.mch.sni.de> > Upon the date 12:07 AM 4/22/99 -0400, jpero@cgocable.net said something like: > >What's about this VME and programming on that 68000 type? > If I understand your question, the VMEbus is a 32-bit microcomputer bus > which is used primarily in industrial computers. Certain Sun products also > used it but I defere to those experts for further Sun comment. Not to forget ATARI - Yes, ATARI also used VME - the TT (you know, the always anounced, never available and to expensive 68030 system) had two ( 3 ?) VME slots for add ons. The idea was baicly to have a chance to add 'better' Graphic cards, since the TT was intended as Graphic Workstation. Eventualy the TT was also in a somewhat unintentional demand from engeneering companies (the TT would had given a beautifull low cost VME development system) - again a market where ATARI did totaly miss, while the customers where _WAITING_ for the machine. > VMEbus was invented by John Black and others at Motorola in 1983. Came from > the now-obsolete VersaModule bus structure Moto had since I think the > mid-70's. Basic form factor was the Eurocard with DIN 46xxx connector > (can't recall DIN number at moment). Hence, VMEbus = VersaModule Eurocard > bus. Quickly became a standardized bus protocol worldwide. > Moto, Mostek and Philips were earliest suppliers of hardware. Others > followed. Still somewhat popular and well supported today. The 68k > processor family was the most used uP. However, Intel uP's, Moto's 88000 > RISC uP, some Transputer devices and other uP's were also used in VMEbus > module designs. Somewhat popular ? VME is still #1 when it comes to industrial apps. Only the enhanced usage of PCs can stand against with ISA/PCI backplanes and the _very_ popular PC104 systems. Gruss H. (Thanks Christian) -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Apr 22 08:50:50 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990421213611.00a46ad0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19990422091830.00a6f6e0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 02:12 AM 4/22/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail said something like: >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > -- snip -- >> To try to solve that First Microcomputer question, a set of attributes must >> first be set just like the set was to determine the 1st PC as shown in the >> above URL. Methinks that will be a bit troublesome as nobody seemed to >> agree on that during the last go-around of discussing the 1st Microcomputer >> here awhile back. > >Well, first what? First computer built around a microprocessor? That Yes, 'first what?' That's pretty much my point in writing that paragraph above because there's no apparently clear concensus on the set of attributes. >would probably be Intel's development machines. Or should it include an Intel's devel machines would be a logical choice if one holds to the first microcomputer machine in question using a microprocessor. After all, since Intel is the "inventor" of the uP and the Busicom calculator product was probably not "programmable", then the first ones could have been from Intel. However, your F14 CADC computer choice below holds the most water when considering uP-based machines. Therefore, as a result of recently disclosed confidential information as many of us had already seen months ago on the microcomputerhistory.com site, the MP944 chipset-based computer should indeed be considered the first microcomputer. Ultimately, an etymology of the word 'microcomputer' should be undertaken with respect to its' being attached to a *particular* machine, whether uP-based or not, in order to answer the question clearly. I suggest we start there. What does the OED say? >integrated CRT and keyboard? Or did it just have to have a serial >interface for a terminal? Or are lights and switches good enough for >output and input? > >Arguing firsts is mostly pointless because people have a problem agreeing >on the definition. I vote for the F14 CADC computer, since it was built >around what could be considered a "microprocessor" and was in production >and flying in the F14 in 1970. > >http://www.microcomputerhistory.com Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Apr 22 09:10:06 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: VME? related to College search. In-Reply-To: <199904221347.PAA08672@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <4.1.19990422081651.00a80440@206.231.8.2> <199904220402.AAA20231@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990422095931.00a766f0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 03:47 PM 4/22/99 +0001, Hans Franke said something like: >> Upon the date 12:07 AM 4/22/99 -0400, jpero@cgocable.net said something like: >> >What's about this VME and programming on that 68000 type? > >> If I understand your question, the VMEbus is a 32-bit microcomputer bus >> which is used primarily in industrial computers. Certain Sun products also >> used it but I defere to those experts for further Sun comment. > >Not to forget ATARI - Yes, ATARI also used VME - the TT (you know, >the always anounced, never available and to expensive 68030 system) >had two ( 3 ?) VME slots for add ons. The idea was baicly to have a >chance to add 'better' Graphic cards, since the TT was intended as >Graphic Workstation. > >Eventualy the TT was also in a somewhat unintentional demand from >engeneering companies (the TT would had given a beautifull low >cost VME development system) - again a market where ATARI did >totaly miss, while the customers where _WAITING_ for the machine. I'm not very aware of that machine. However, I personally don't pay much attention to ATARI as they are a machine not in my scope of interest. I have to place limits on myself in some way :) > >> VMEbus was invented by John Black and others at Motorola in 1983. Came from >> the now-obsolete VersaModule bus structure Moto had since I think the >> mid-70's. Basic form factor was the Eurocard with DIN 46xxx connector >> (can't recall DIN number at moment). Hence, VMEbus = VersaModule Eurocard >> bus. Quickly became a standardized bus protocol worldwide. > >> Moto, Mostek and Philips were earliest suppliers of hardware. Others >> followed. Still somewhat popular and well supported today. The 68k >> processor family was the most used uP. However, Intel uP's, Moto's 88000 >> RISC uP, some Transputer devices and other uP's were also used in VMEbus >> module designs. > >Somewhat popular ? VME is still #1 when it comes to industrial apps. I tend to occasionally understate things. I did so in this case as there would often be the person who stands up and says is #1 and then the list would degenerate into yet another pi--ing contest. (Personally, I think VME is #1 indust. bus myself and fully agree with you, but please don't tell anybody! ;) ;) ;) >Only the enhanced usage of PCs can stand against with ISA/PCI backplanes >and the _very_ popular PC104 systems. Those PC104 systems are indeed nice for their small size. > >Gruss >H. >(Thanks Christian) Bitte sch?n! Bis sp?ter, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 22 11:27:43 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: VME? related to College search. In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990422095931.00a766f0@206.231.8.2> References: <199904221347.PAA08672@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199904221428.QAA13950@horus.mch.sni.de> > >Not to forget ATARI - Yes, ATARI also used VME - the TT (you know, > >the always anounced, never available and to expensive 68030 system) > >had two ( 3 ?) VME slots for add ons. The idea was baicly to have a > >chance to add 'better' Graphic cards, since the TT was intended as > >Graphic Workstation. > >Eventualy the TT was also in a somewhat unintentional demand from > >engeneering companies (the TT would had given a beautifull low > >cost VME development system) - again a market where ATARI did > >totaly miss, while the customers where _WAITING_ for the machine. > I'm not very aware of that machine. However, I personally don't pay much > attention to ATARI as they are a machine not in my scope of interest. I > have to place limits on myself in some way :) It was a nice and well designed machine, but just again marketed wrong. Over here it got a lot of cheers from small engeneering companies (and did backward push the usage of VME - a usable and _payable_ development system is essential). > >> Moto, Mostek and Philips were earliest suppliers of hardware. Others > >> followed. Still somewhat popular and well supported today. The 68k > >> processor family was the most used uP. However, Intel uP's, Moto's 88000 > >> RISC uP, some Transputer devices and other uP's were also used in VMEbus > >> module designs. > >Somewhat popular ? VME is still #1 when it comes to industrial apps. > I tend to occasionally understate things. I did so in this case as there > would often be the person who stands up and says is #1 > and then the list would degenerate into yet another pi--ing contest. > (Personally, I think VME is #1 indust. bus myself and fully agree with you, > but please don't tell anybody! ;) ;) ;) This wasn't a personal statement - my last VME project was some 10 years ago (installations are still working). > >Only the enhanced usage of PCs can stand against with ISA/PCI backplanes > >and the _very_ popular PC104 systems. > Those PC104 systems are indeed nice for their small size. Cute - I've a 486-66 system on my table - with VGA, LAN, Sound, HD and usual I/O - all in a cube of less than 13x13x13 cm^3 - that's what I call a workplace system :) > Bis später, Chris Ja, bis spaeter Servus Hans -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 22 09:49:19 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <000c01be8ccf$4db55180$0100c0a8@fuj03> That 8073 from National is in my inventory, though I don't recall its being an SC/MP. It's probably something, though, and I somehow doubt it's an 8048-series component. Dick -----Original Message----- From: KFergason@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 9:59 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >In a message dated 4/21/99 6:09:47 PM Central Daylight Time, >allisonp@world.std.com writes: > >> > <(note, I believe one existed, but memory is fuzzy till i get home to >> > >> Not including the three sold by National Semi or the ones that used the >> 8073 SC/MP with a internal rom tiny basic(also sold be national)??? >> >> Allison >> > >Yes, not including any by NS. I know they produced boards, >just like most manufacturers did. > >DigiKey had something in their catalogs, but its been so long, I >don't remember exactly what it was. (maybe just reselling the NS stuff?) > >Kelly > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 22 09:58:51 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <001901be8cd0$a2df9340$0100c0a8@fuj03> Since we've not seen any code for the 6502 yet, this may not be a problem, but since Apple didn't exactly make it easy to exchange diskettes with other systems, how would you propose to transfer a file, binary or otherwise between systems? Though I haven't gotten into it, I figured on cross-assembling from a PC to a PROM. That makes it easy for me, but how will others do it? It's enough of a problem transferring files from, say, a CP/M box running a Z-80, since PC's don't read 8" disks. How should this be dealt with? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 3:17 AM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >>> Some things in this contest that sound reasonable to me; >> >>> Input and output are to memory resident buffers. >> >>> Inline code is too boring, and subrountine calling too important, so the >>> "task" should require perhaps modules; maybe make the contest half a dozen >>> subroutines which get called from a contest defined main program (using >>> some typical non asm language like C or pascal). >> >>> Contest submissions could be a simple binary file, file length, predefined >>> jump table for subroutines, the actual code. Some third party, can run the >>> code and time it on the hardware of their choice. >> >>Nice, but with these things, like internas of the system for input/output, >>binary and similarities, you tie again all down to a single system to >>use - we loose the idea of a cross platform competition where only basic >>processor features are measured (see also the subject). > >I don't see what you mean. By setting some basic format for the file >structure you make it PORTABLE, not restricted. Each target system then can >read the common format and arrange it however is best suited to that target >system prior to execution of code. > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Apr 22 10:10:28 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <19990422071348.20276.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Apr 22, 1999 07:13:48 am" Message-ID: <199904221510.KAA09254@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > > Ah, but what was the first Microcomputer (including at least a monitor with > > bitmap display, some sort of disk or floppy drive, as standard features, > > and 'personal' in nature)? > > Since you've ruled out vector displays, the earliest one I used was a PDP-8/e > with a VT8-E raster display interface and an RK02 disk (or was it RK03?). > First available in 1971 if memory serves, though I didn't use it until the > late 70s. > The video display didnt come with all PDP-8/e computers as a standard feature. PDP-8/e systems were Minicomputers, typically rack mounted. And yes, i realize some cpu units were integrated into small tabletop lab units, it still stretches the imagination to refer to a particular gutted down configuration of a minicomputer, as a microcomputer. I would think that either a raster graphics capable monitor would have to come with the computer, or it would have to use a TV as its standard console (with the video display circuitry built-in as standard feature). Sure, there is always going to be some person who manages to buy a Sun 3/50 without a monitor, and uses it for a headless server, but for the purposes of this particular qualification, a sun 3/50 does come with video display built in as a standard feature, and even a headless one has that feature, unless you the purchaser removed it somehow. -Lawrence LeMay From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 22 10:17:52 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <002401be8cd3$5e27b040$0100c0a8@fuj03> One aspect of this matter I'm already seeing ignored is the COST. That so-called FIRST personal computer which cost $300 in the early '50's, for example, cost quite a lot of money. In the '50's, it was unusual for anyone to earn $100 a week. A mid-priced Chevrolet cost less than $2000 and $10 a week was plenty for a week's groceries for a family of 4. Not even DEC's so-called personal computers were competitive enough to interest an industry professional. The DEC mini's weren't even a good buy as they became obsolete. I doubt DEC equipment was EVER used where there wasn't a third party present who profited from its use. That doesn't mean they weren't appropriate and suitable for a wide range of uses, but it certainly doesn't characterize a personal computer. Just to put things into perspective, a week's groceries, these days, for a family of four, cost about $150, a decent mid-priced car costs $15000, and a farily well equipped and appropriately designated personal computer with a 400MHz pentium, 8GB HDD, 64MB of RAM, OS installed, all the multimedia features, plus a current-generation modem (V.90) costs $400 less the monitor with monitors costing $139 for a 15" and $300 for a 20" type. These prices are from Best-Buy's ad in last Sunday's paper. You can probably do better if you shop. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 3:21 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > >> This seems to be a well researched trail leading up to the Simon, IMO. > >Yes, Doug did a fantastic job. > >> However, any good guess as to how many Simons were actually made and >> successfully run from the over 400 plan sets sold? Any known to exist now? > >Doug is still looking for one, but he and another local Doug are looking >into building one. They've acquired a nice pile of relays and are hoping >to have one built by VCF 3.0 for exhibit. > >> To try to solve that First Microcomputer question, a set of attributes must >> first be set just like the set was to determine the 1st PC as shown in the >> above URL. Methinks that will be a bit troublesome as nobody seemed to >> agree on that during the last go-around of discussing the 1st Microcomputer >> here awhile back. > >Well, first what? First computer built around a microprocessor? That >would probably be Intel's development machines. Or should it include an >integrated CRT and keyboard? Or did it just have to have a serial >interface for a terminal? Or are lights and switches good enough for >output and input? > >Arguing firsts is mostly pointless because people have a problem agreeing >on the definition. I vote for the F14 CADC computer, since it was built >around what could be considered a "microprocessor" and was in production >and flying in the F14 in 1970. > >http://www.microcomputerhistory.com > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 22 10:22:30 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <19990422065003.20182.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990422102230.01195e10@vpwisfirewall> At 06:50 AM 4/22/99 -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > >Why is hooking up a small core memory to PCI any more of a joke than building >it in 1999 in general? As I recall, you proposed making about 256 bytes. >It's not like you're going to be able to run an operating system out of it >on *any* machine, modern or classic. You'd think there would've been more motivation to remove the battery-backed nature of the CMOS RAM in today's PCs, and that core-like replacements would make more sense in situations where (for example) it would be difficult to replace the coin cell or AA-pack or whatever every 12-18 months. So many failures of PCs (and delightful amounts of "service" fees to repair them) involve failure of the battery for the CMOS RAM. Of course, this can lead to the discussion of real-time clock chips with enclosed batteries with a finite lifetime... At 08:41 AM 4/22/99 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > >Because what would the point be for a pc with core and an access time of >1000 to 10,000ns per byte/word? That's hard disk territory, right? :-) - John From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 22 10:26:06 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <003501be8cd4$7162ac40$0100c0a8@fuj03> That is really interesting! I was pretty disappointed when I got my first "kit" and found that, while it had provisions for a front-panel in its design, none was ever offered. I'm glad to know that there actually were such things. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 4:52 AM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing > >> My name is Wouter, I'm new here, and I never throw anything away. >> Hi Wouter! :-) > >Hi , > >> >I saw one ad for an >> >SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was >> >not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor >> >was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now >> >of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I >> >ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. > >> http://ccii.dockside.co.za/~wrm/ccc.html > >CUTE! >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 22 10:32:46 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: References: <990421204807.20c00ad6@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990422103246.011d9420@vpwisfirewall> At 11:31 PM 4/21/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >That's Doug Salot's (Yowza) creation. What about his assertion don't you >agree with? I think he's right on the mark. I became mightly confused when I searched my bookmarks for "classic computer" and found , which was 404, so I trimmed off "faq.txt" and tried again, which 404'd, and then thought must be some kind of parody that Doug assembled, but now I'm not sure. Did he sell the domain? - John From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 22 10:37:08 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <990422113708.20c00c3a@trailing-edge.com> >Since we've not seen any code for the 6502 yet, this may not be a problem, >but since Apple didn't exactly make it easy to exchange diskettes with other >systems, how would you propose to transfer a file, binary or otherwise >between systems? Though I haven't gotten into it, I figured on >cross-assembling from a PC to a PROM. That makes it easy for me, but how >will others do it? Easy: Run Kermit on both ends of the link. Kermit is available for everything from IBM mainframes to HP calculators, and has been the standard solution for decades for those of us who have to deal with diverse systems. See http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ for details. >It's enough of a problem transferring files from, say, a CP/M box running a >Z-80, since PC's don't read 8" disks. Huh? I've been doing this with 22Disk and/or Teledisk on PC-clones for over a decade. See http://www.sydex.com/ for details. See the comp.os.cpm FAQ for details about the cabling, and see my recent posts here or the discussions in comp.os.cpm about single-density FDC chips in PC clones if you need to read single-density formats on your PC-clone. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 22 12:57:56 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990422103246.011d9420@vpwisfirewall> References: Message-ID: <199904221558.RAA23193@horus.mch.sni.de> > >That's Doug Salot's (Yowza) creation. What about his assertion don't you > >agree with? I think he's right on the mark. > I became mightly confused when I searched my bookmarks for > "classic computer" and found , > which was 404, so I trimmed off "faq.txt" and tried again, which 404'd, > and then thought must be some kind of parody > that Doug assembled, but now I'm not sure. Did he sell the domain? I don't know, judgeing from the style, it could be some kind of parody, or test site, or a 'artbook' to show his talents ... It looks different from most XXX sites ... made with style and a crazy twist. - also the 'secure' service at https://secure.ientertain.com/ looks wired ... just anoter riddle to solve. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 22 11:00:13 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: VME? related to College search. Message-ID: <004001be8cd9$354ec860$0100c0a8@fuj03> I'm quite certain that VME predates the 1983 date you've specified. I made/sold a wirewrap card for VME back in the early portion of 1982 at which time I was a latecomer to the VME Bus Manufacturers' Group. Mostek and Motorola both had complete systems available for 68K development and such. Not much effort had been put into making it useful for anything else, but FORCE Computers, apparently a German company with outlets here in the US, had a complete set of boards for nearly any common purpose and some kind of OS available. at that time. BICC-Vero made cardcages, backplanes, and wire-wrap boards for the VME of the time, and several inependent card makers were making the little "single-connector" cpu and interface boards for embedded applications in 1982. This happened to be at the same time as my last divorce, so I have realatively good recall due to association with other events of the time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 7:18 AM Subject: Re: VME? related to College search. >Upon the date 12:07 AM 4/22/99 -0400, jpero@cgocable.net said something like: >>What's about this VME and programming on that 68000 type? > >If I understand your question, the VMEbus is a 32-bit microcomputer bus >which is used primarily in industrial computers. Certain Sun products also >used it but I defere to those experts for further Sun comment. > >VMEbus was invented by John Black and others at Motorola in 1983. Came from >the now-obsolete VersaModule bus structure Moto had since I think the >mid-70's. Basic form factor was the Eurocard with DIN 46xxx connector >(can't recall DIN number at moment). Hence, VMEbus = VersaModule Eurocard >bus. Quickly became a standardized bus protocol worldwide. > >Moto, Mostek and Philips were earliest suppliers of hardware. Others >followed. Still somewhat popular and well supported today. The 68k >processor family was the most used uP. However, Intel uP's, Moto's 88000 >RISC uP, some Transputer devices and other uP's were also used in VMEbus >module designs. > >A fairly recent extension of the VMEbus protocol, VME64, extends the bus to >64 bits. The physics community is a major user of VME64 nowadays. > >> >>Don't anyone have graphics of VME stuff like cages, cards, VME > >Start by looking at this URL from eg3 which has a good list of VMEbus >resources: http://www.eg3.com/indc/indcxvme.htm. > >VITA - The VMEBus International Trade Association, has a URL: >http://www.vita.com/ . You could find more info and links there. > >>equipments? And how common is this out in that canadian field? > >Should be as common as it was in the States as it was found usually in >embedded industrial control and data collection systems in factories, etc. >Of course, the PeeCee stuff replaced some installations if the user wanted >to move to or start his/her design using the Intel processor or go for a >design 'on the cheap and dirty' as VMEbus products and s/w could be a bit >pricey. Multibus I and II and, to a smaller extent, STDbus and G64 were >competition to VMEbus. > >> >>I see that in my college electronic engineering technology course >>info by Algonquin College in canada within Ottawa, Ontario. >> >>Other college St. Lawerence College offers same type of course >>but uses x86 and pc type circuits in their courses which in my >>opinion bit shortsighted and lacks "commerical" areas compared to >>Algonquin's. > >I agree. Algonquin is fine with including VMEbus and other industrial >busses in their course structure. PeeCee could be included but for critical >real time apps it should be stated that VMEbus and its board products and >OS's are one the several non-PeeCee systems which really shine. > >> >>Keep your thoughts freely flowing! > >Yeah, well the on topic ones are fine from us, but . . . ;) > >Regards, Chris >-- -- >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net >Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Thu Apr 22 11:13:26 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: SUN tape drive was RE: Sun 1 question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990422083938.22cfdc8c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: What do you need to get the IPC going? I've got a bunch of "extra" Sun stuff around, so maybe I can help you get it going. Or is it something more like non-functioning hardware? Does it boot to the monitor prompt? Aaron On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > Aaron, > > Got it open. It has a Exabyte EXB-8505 drive in it. Don't know what > I'll use it for. I haven't even been able to get my SUN IPC to boot yet. > > Thanks for the help. > Joe From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 22 12:16:00 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: GEM GPL'd? Message-ID: Here is a site that claims Caldera just GPL'd GEM. http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/gemworld.html I've no idea of the validity of this statement, but apparently the guy running the site browbeat Caldera into releasing it. They've got a pretty good selection of GEM PC software, and it sounds like other stuff elsewhere on the site. If you're interested in such things. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 22 11:20:30 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: Nanokit was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing References: <199904221036.MAA02214@ccii.dockside.co.za> Message-ID: <371F4C4E.DF61C141@rain.org> Wouter de Waal wrote: > > Hi all > > My name is Wouter, I'm new here, and I never throw anything away. > Hi Wouter! :-) > > http://ccii.dockside.co.za/~wrm/ccc.html Neat looking computer! And of course there are mamy of us who never throw things away. I think there is a law that says that within two weeks of throwing anything away, there will be an urgent need for that item! From ddameron at earthlink.net Thu Apr 22 07:58:07 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <19990422064550.20126.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990422075807.2fc752da@earthlink.net> At 06:45 AM 4/22/99 -0000, Eric wrote: >Mike wrote: >> Perhaps a >> smaller array, but with LARGE cores where the magnetic state could have >> some visual indicators. > For a picture of a "large" core memory (100 10 digit words for the ENIAC!) look at: http://www.cbi.umn.edu/photo/cbi/eniabro5.htm and the previous pages. The wires are large enough to go to the Jones strips on the right of the photo. From ddameron at earthlink.net Thu Apr 22 08:10:39 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990422081039.2eefea24@earthlink.net> At 08:49 AM 4/22/99 -0400, Allison wrote: >> >Cores large enough for visual indication of magnetic field would be in the >> >10-20AMPS select curent range. Not a real possibility. >> >> Maybe so, but those are practicality issues, not feasibility. > >that answer equates to "whatever". Describe the mechanics of displaying >the orientation of a magnetic field in a closed torus? I was trying to >get someone to think on how thjis may be done impractical or not. > Yea, the field lines are contained inside the toroid, no external poles. For an *exotic* way, the Aharonov-Bohm effect might work. See the Scientific American article, April 1989. This, by the way, is that the magnetic potential is outside the torus and can effect an electron in the quantum realm. Of course the effort and equipment to do this for 1 bit would overwhelm the rest of the machine! More on topic, the magnetic cores they used were 5 microns in diameter and ferromagnetic, not "ferroelectric". They were 83% Ni and 17% iron, on a silicon wafer, also shielded by niobium. -Dave From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 22 11:45:28 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <001901be8cd0$a2df9340$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 22, 99 08:58:51 am Message-ID: <199904221645.JAA11572@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 935 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990422/296289fb/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 22 11:44:36 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <000c01be8ccf$4db55180$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > That 8073 from National is in my inventory, though I don't recall its being > an SC/MP. It's probably something, though, and I somehow doubt it's an > 8048-series component. > > Dick It is indeed a SC/mp (V2) part. I have one up and running on the national TBX SBC. The internal rom is 2.5k and there is also 64bytes of ram. The instructions set is sc/mpII enhanced upward compatable. Allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 22 13:44:27 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: GEM GPL'd? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199904221645.SAA26683@horus.mch.sni.de> > Here is a site that claims Caldera just GPL'd GEM. > http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/gemworld.html I've no idea of the validity of > this statement, but apparently the guy running the site browbeat Caldera > into releasing it. They've got a pretty good selection of GEM PC software, > and it sounds like other stuff elsewhere on the site. If you're interested > in such things. Sounds to good to be true - Last modification date is Donnerstag, 22. April 1999 13:27:27 GMT, do it is new. It should be very interersting to compare the graphical part to the CP/M GSX (from all datastructures they are _very_ similar, so I always belived the code must be close). Maybe now my old wish could be done - port GEM to CP/M 80 (in fact, with GSX, 70% are already there). Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 22 13:44:27 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: Nanokit was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <371F4C4E.DF61C141@rain.org> Message-ID: <199904221645.SAA26686@horus.mch.sni.de> > > My name is Wouter, I'm new here, and I never throw anything away. > > Hi Wouter! :-) > > http://ccii.dockside.co.za/~wrm/ccc.html > Neat looking computer! And of course there are mamy of us who never throw > things away. I think there is a law that says that within two weeks of > throwing anything away, there will be an urgent need for that item! Also it is the first SA manufactured system I've heared of. I WANT ONE ! :)) Hans -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 22 11:50:34 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <199904221510.KAA09254@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: > > The video display didnt come with all PDP-8/e computers as a standard feature. > PDP-8/e systems were Minicomputers, typically rack mounted. And yes, > i realize some cpu units were integrated into small tabletop lab units, > it still stretches the imagination to refer to a particular gutted down > configuration of a minicomputer, as a microcomputer. You've obviously never seen a edusystem. As to gutted down, you're really misinformed. > I would think that either a raster graphics capable monitor would > have to come with the computer, or it would have to use a TV as its > standard console (with the video display circuitry built-in as standard Get real. You obviously define microcomputers by the display system. generally anthing that used a TV was too low res for any test work and most at best looked poor. Any serious work other than games is nto considered. Try an 8E, 12k core, Vt05 termial and a TD8e Dectape running an OS an languages. ALL ON A DESK TOP. During that timeframe there were smaller machiness all predating the PC concept. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 22 11:55:33 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My assertions are: 1) due to the lack of consensus on fundamental terms, such as what IS a "personal computer", that each person choosing a "FIRST PC" will create their own set of "requirements", and thus will have a very subjective choice. 2) Virtually nobody will ever acknowledge that their choices ARE "subjective"; therefore they will insist that anyone coming up with alternative choices are "wrong". _I_ posses the only RIGHT answer. 3) Since the majority of people will intermingle their personal needs with the "requirements", therefore their concept of which was the "first" will be intertwined with which one they first considered for themselves. 4) As Richard mentioned, "where you sit determines what you see". Therefore, MOST people's choices will be based on which system they first saw advertised that met THEIR requirements. 5) As Sam pointed out, it is completely futile to continue the discussion. Doug's site is well researched and MAGNIFICENT in its presentation. But, inevitably, his choices of "requirements" are completely arbitrary. MOST of them, I agree with! But they are still arbitrary. For example: WHY "digital NOT analog"? If there were to exist an analog machine with a complete operating system, peripherals, office productivity suite, etc. would that not be a "personal computer"? What about a requirement of "usefulness"? To MANY PEOPLE, but not all of us, "personal computer" represents a device for word processing, spreadsheets, etc. MANY "experts" in the trade would reject inclusion of any machine without application software availability. One that is hard for me to personally object to is the requirement of programmability by the end user. I personally would be loathe to purchase a machine that I couldn't program, BUT IS THAT PART OF THE DEFINITION? What percentage of Macintosh users have the facilities and tools, much less capability, to program their computers? Does that now make THOSE become "NOT Personal Computers"? It is entirely possible for a manufacturer to produce a machine comparable to modern "personal computers" and NOT make available necessary programming tools! Imagine if you will, if MICROS~1 were to have held a monopoly on programming tools for WindozeCE, or if Apple were to have declared itself to be sole source for application software for the IMAC? His choices for "requirements" are VERY REASONABLE. But still completely arbitrary. "moveable by one person" WHY? Seems like a good idea, but what about a computer built into an office desk? His work is far from unique in being arbitrary. For comparison, consider how you would define the differences between a microcomputer, a minicomputer, and a mainframe: my favorite is: A Microcomputer, you can pick up and carry. A minicomputer, requires a handtruck. A mainframe, requires a forklift and a union moving crew. BTW, yes, Doug DID say that he was selling the domain name. Presumably he did; or has he merely taken on a new hobby? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM wrote: > > > I *do* like the web page that Sam pointed out > > ( http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml ). I may not agree with the > > final positive, but I do agree with all the previous negatives :-). > > And that Arkay CT-560 looks pretty nifty! > > That's Doug Salot's (Yowza) creation. What about his assertion don't you > agree with? I think he's right on the mark. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 22 11:56:56 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990422102230.01195e10@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: > core-like replacements would make more sense in situations > where (for example) it would be difficult to replace the coin cell > or AA-pack or whatever every 12-18 months. So many failures > of PCs (and delightful amounts of "service" fees to repair them) > involve failure of the battery for the CMOS RAM. 12-18months????? yours must be preaged about 60months when you get them. > >Because what would the point be for a pc with core and an access time of > >1000 to 10,000ns per byte/word? > > That's hard disk territory, right? :-) you dont execute directly from the disk. If we did there would eb little need for a Xeon! ;) then again the code would be tighter. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 22 12:01:25 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990422081039.2eefea24@earthlink.net> Message-ID: read to end... On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Dave Dameron wrote: > At 08:49 AM 4/22/99 -0400, Allison wrote: > >> >Cores large enough for visual indication of magnetic field would be in the > >> >10-20AMPS select curent range. Not a real possibility. > >> > >> Maybe so, but those are practicality issues, not feasibility. > > > >that answer equates to "whatever". Describe the mechanics of displaying > >the orientation of a magnetic field in a closed torus? I was trying to > >get someone to think on how thjis may be done impractical or not. > > > Yea, the field lines are contained inside the toroid, no external poles. > For an *exotic* way, the > Aharonov-Bohm effect might work. See the Scientific American article, April > 1989. This, by the way, is that the magnetic potential is outside the torus > and can effect an electron in the quantum realm. Of course the effort and > equipment to do this for 1 bit would overwhelm the rest of the machine! > More on topic, the magnetic cores they used were 5 microns in diameter and > ferromagnetic, not "ferroelectric". They were 83% Ni and 17% iron, on a > silicon wafer, also shielded by niobium. > -Dave > then there is the easy way... apply a magnetic field and see if it switches. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 22 12:18:03 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were In-Reply-To: Message-ID: re: WHAT WAS the first PC.... The answer IBM... They called their personal computer the PC. Now that flys in teh face of what was happening for 15+ years before that. there were people that were trying make/buy their own personally owned digital computer. This ranged from buying PDP-8s to recreating them or other hardware. When the commercial microprocessor became reality with the 8008 there is little question in my mind that was the pivotal event leading to Mark-8, altair, Apple-1 and so on. As one that is old enough and personally active doing that then makes Donald's minuteman-1 missle computer (surplus) my first contact with a personal computer (micro be dammed for the moment). That was right before the intel part hit the news. Video console, hell we were happy to see a flipflop do exactly that! Allison From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Apr 22 12:25:11 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "Apr 22, 1999 12:50:34 pm" Message-ID: <199904221725.MAA09414@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > > > > The video display didnt come with all PDP-8/e computers as a standard feature. > > PDP-8/e systems were Minicomputers, typically rack mounted. And yes, > > i realize some cpu units were integrated into small tabletop lab units, > > it still stretches the imagination to refer to a particular gutted down > > configuration of a minicomputer, as a microcomputer. > > You've obviously never seen a edusystem. As to gutted down, you're really > misinformed. Possibly. I spend a few years using pdp8/e, but thats the only 8/e i've ever used. I've seen one or two others, and every time, it looked like a minicomputer to me. Now, I have a decmate III, and that looks like a microcomputer to me. > > > I would think that either a raster graphics capable monitor would > > have to come with the computer, or it would have to use a TV as its > > standard console (with the video display circuitry built-in as standard > > Get real. You obviously define microcomputers by the display system. > generally anthing that used a TV was too low res for any test work and > most at best looked poor. Any serious work other than games is nto > considered. Exactly, yes I do define a microcomputer in those terms. it was a new 'era' in computing, just as the switch from mainframes to minicomputers was a new era. Defining exactly what makes a microcomputer is a bit difficult. To me, the decmates, the Terak, the trs-80 were all microcomputers. One possible observation is that they cannot be mounted in a 19" rack (as many minicomputers can be). Sure, you can get a minicomputer in a non-rack mount version, but show me the person or company that bought rack mounted apple ][ microcomputers... Do we at least agree that there was a microcomputer era that started either near the mid 70's or early 80's (depending on how you define microcomputer)? If not, what do you call the change that occured at that time. And what was the first computer or computers that started ushering in that change (even though at the time, they didnt realize it was a significant trend)? > > Try an 8E, 12k core, Vt05 termial and a TD8e Dectape running an OS an > languages. ALL ON A DESK TOP. During that timeframe there were smaller > machiness all predating the PC concept. > > Allison > From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 22 12:25:01 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: References: <19990422064550.20126.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: >> Mike wrote: >> > Perhaps a >> > smaller array, but with LARGE cores where the magnetic state could have >> > some visual indicators. >> >> How would that work? Would you have an LED for each bit or something? >> >I can see providing a switch and a led for the circuit to set/clear the >bit. But displaying it's magnetic state like a realy might is kinda out >there. ;) > >Allison My first thought was something like a small compass near each bit. I want to avoid lights since I think they are less engaging, less an indicator that something has happened. Ideally this should be an attractive looking toy, that sparks curiousity. From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 22 12:28:06 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> >Cores large enough for visual indication of magnetic field would be in the >> >10-20AMPS select curent range. Not a real possibility. >> >> Maybe so, but those are practicality issues, not feasibility. > >that answer equates to "whatever". Describe the mechanics of displaying >the orientation of a magnetic field in a closed torus? I was trying to >get someone to think on how thjis may be done impractical or not. Gee don't they have little arrows sticking through the middle like my physics books show? From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 22 12:30:30 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:28 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: References: <19990422092700.21087.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: >> > Actually I was thinking closer to a solenoid, and the whole array with >> > manual buttons that would need to be pressed, very hands on and see what >> > happens. > >The logical error there is that a torid is a closed field and hence cannot >operate a solinoid (open field). The magnetic path of a core is a closed >loop. See I am learning something again and we haven't even built anything. ;) Cheesy, but we could just use a parallel circuit for the indicator, not my preference though. What might a drop of ferrofluid do if placed on a core? From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Apr 22 12:32:01 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > My assertions are: > > 1) due to the lack of consensus on fundamental terms, such as what IS a > "personal computer", that each person choosing a "FIRST PC" will create > their own set of "requirements", and thus will have a very subjective > choice. (Oooooo... they are gonna hate me for this one!) B^} Ok, I agree with the sentiment that there is no point in continuing this debate, but it struck me that we can have some fun with it. --- A PROPOSAL: (for VCF III) Let us conduct a poll amongst attendees. Given the premise that small/personal/affordable/almost inexpensive/etc. computers are new again, and they are looking for a computer that they would like to own for personal use (avoiding the phrase "personal computer" at all costs), what machine (among those on display) would they select for their use. The winner could then be designated the 'Official' VCF III "Computer for Personal Use". (until the following year) BASIC rules: (pun intended) 1) The unit must be functioning so that prospective voters can 'test drive' it (or at least view a running demo). A list/plaquard with description and specifications of the unit should be part of the display. 2) If the unit is available for interactive use, it must be running some O.S./Language that was originally available for the unit and stands a chance of being recognized by a casual viewer. (so yes, an IBM 5110 could be running APL, but would that endear it to the masses?) 3) The unit and associated peripherals should be 'unadorned' beyond its original styling and configuration. (no undocumentable psycho '70s black light paint jobs) 4) The unit and its associated peripherals should be proper contemporaries. (no 1970 PDP-8s adorned with an SGI as a graphics engine) 5) Balloting will be by mark-sense form ("class, take out your #2 pencils, and fill in the bubbles completely!"), and will be processed on appropriately vintage equipment at Noon on Sunday. --- Prizes for the winner (as if the honor of the designation is not sufficient) are yet to be determined. But when you get it, it's gonna be good! Additional thoughts/comments welcome! Mayhaps this will encourage more folks to have their gear in operation! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 22 14:37:47 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199904221738.TAA29407@horus.mch.sni.de> > > 1) due to the lack of consensus on fundamental terms, such as what IS a > > "personal computer", that each person choosing a "FIRST PC" will create > > their own set of "requirements", and thus will have a very subjective > > choice. > > (Oooooo... they are gonna hate me for this one!) B^} I love it :) > A PROPOSAL: (for VCF III) > Prizes for the winner (as if the honor of the designation is not > sufficient) are yet to be determined. But when you get it, it's gonna be > good! > Additional thoughts/comments welcome! Mayhaps this will encourage more > folks to have their gear in operation! Maybe we should fix that only systems within the 10 year rule can be classified. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Apr 22 12:41:31 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <199904221725.MAA09414@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > ... Defining exactly what makes a microcomputer is > a bit difficult. To me, the decmates, the Terak, the trs-80 were all > microcomputers. One possible observation is that they cannot be > mounted in a 19" rack (as many minicomputers can be). Sure, you > can get a minicomputer in a non-rack mount version, but show > me the person or company that bought rack mounted apple ][ > microcomputers... Well, while my (often random) memory seems to recall working on more than a few Apple ][s sitting on shelfs in 19inch racks... I can state without reservation that Altairs and IMSAIs were frequently rack mounted, and MITS/Pertec offered an Altair 8800b 'Business System' in a desk rack configuration... Then the Cromemco Z-2 series was designed specifically for rack mount applications... (I have an example of that one in my collection - currently in a rack) B^} ...I'm not sure that statement will fly as a defining criteria -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 22 12:47:35 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s Message-ID: <990422134735.20c00c64@trailing-edge.com> >Then the Cromemco Z-2 series was designed specifically for rack mount >applications... (I have an example of that one in my collection - >currently in a rack) B^} The catalogs usually pictured the Z-2 in a nice wooden office cabinet - often an integral part of a desk. In the field, certainly, open metal racks make much more sense :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 22 12:33:45 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990422091830.00a6f6e0@206.231.8.2> References: <4.1.19990421213611.00a46ad0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: Does anyone have one of those first 4004 terminals that started everything? Were they even built? From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Apr 22 12:49:57 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC") In-Reply-To: <199904221738.TAA29407@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > A PROPOSAL: (for VCF III) > > > > Maybe we should fix that only systems within the 10 year rule can be classified. Dang! I knew I was forgetting something! 6) In order to be eligible, the unit must have entered production (or in the case of a construction article based unit, been published) prior to the introduction of the IBM "PC". (198?... dang, brain fade!) -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Thu Apr 22 12:57:53 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: more chording keyboards In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Apr 21, 99 09:13:29 pm Message-ID: <199904221757.KAA29670@saul9.u.washington.edu> > Some Apple brand keyboard allow half a dozen keys to be pressed at the same > time with each up / down recognized. This allows stuff like cmd-shift-power > (reboot) or some long ones I forget using about 5 keys to make some obscure > choice. Cheap keyboards get confused when too many things happen at the > same time. I guess you're talking about the ADB keyboards which work with the Macintosh. (The same keyboards work with the Apple //gs, so I guess this message IS on topic after all!) There's only one specification I've seen for them: You can press as many modifier keys as you want at the same time, but only two letter/number/ punctuation keys. I think that means they have two-key rollover. The power key is handled differently from the other keys. I wrote a program to show key-down and key-up events, to test my keyboard (in case I could somehow "cheat" and get more-than-two-key rollover) and found I couldn't cheat, and the spec was correct. I forget if I had bought my non-Apple keyboard by then. So most of the special combinations involve modifier keys. Command-control- power is reboot (same as Ctrl-Open Apple-Reset on the //gs) and the trickier combinations include letter keys as well. The "Zap the PRAM" sequence is Command-Option-P-R. There are a number of combinations like that, and they all have two letter keys. I've always wondered how you make a keyboard that has two-key rollover, or N-key rollover for that matter. I know that most keyboards these days scan a matrix of switches, but I don't know where rollover comes into that process. -- Derek From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Apr 22 13:32:45 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Displaying core states In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990422112924.03d55c90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Somewhere in my boxes of stuff I've got one of the tape "visualizer" cards. Its looks like a translucent grey plastic card and when you hold it over a magnetized surface it shows the magnetic "spots" by turning white (what it actually does is rotate a flat magnet in the card that is white on one side and black on the other.) I got this from Edmund Scientific in the mid 70's I believe. Anyway, some variation on this would work on cores. --Chuck At 08:49 AM 4/22/99 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >> >Cores large enough for visual indication of magnetic field would be in the >> >10-20AMPS select curent range. Not a real possibility. >> >> Maybe so, but those are practicality issues, not feasibility. > >that answer equates to "whatever". Describe the mechanics of displaying >the orientation of a magnetic field in a closed torus? I was trying to >get someone to think on how thjis may be done impractical or not. > >I'm not talking about putting leds on the logig arond the cores to show >states. > >Allison > > From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Apr 22 13:27:31 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Wang word proc Free in SoCal Message-ID: I have been offered a largish Wang word processor system... a washing-machine size CPU and two slightly smaller 8" floppy units, several terminals and two printers... no doc or software at this time. I will get model numbers etc. when I actually get to spend some time poking around the units. My question before I actually commit to saving this from the dumpster is: anybody want it??? I sure don't... They're *big* and heavy, so shipping is definately a factor, unless you want to arrange to pick it up, in which case there is a loading dock available. Cheers John PS: TRW Saturday..... From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 22 13:34:41 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: And what IS your hobby? Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Considering that the discussion is nominally about "PERSONAL computers", which presumably means computers for individual use, rather than industrial/commercial/governmental/military, I have to wonder about posts that nominate fighter planes, missile computers, and smart bombs. I do sincerely hope that I haven't said anything to offend you. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 22 13:35:27 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Displaying core states In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990422112924.03d55c90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990422133527.0109ec30@vpwisfirewall> At 11:32 AM 4/22/99 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >Somewhere in my boxes of stuff I've got one of the tape "visualizer" cards. >Its looks like a translucent grey plastic card and when you hold it over a >magnetized surface it shows the magnetic "spots" by turning white (what it There's also the $9-$20 "Magnadoodle" technology available in the toy section of almost any store that flips from white to black after having been exposed to a magnetic pole. I thought you had kids. :-) - John From ddameron at earthlink.net Thu Apr 22 10:12:46 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.19990422081039.2eefea24@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990422101246.27ef75a4@earthlink.net> At 01:01 PM 4/22/99 -0400, Allison wrote: >... >then there is the easy way... apply a magnetic field and see if it >switches. > Well, of course, that's the way the cores normally are used :). I was trying to think of another way, impractical or not. -Dave From ddameron at earthlink.net Thu Apr 22 10:20:04 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990422102004.27ef70ca@earthlink.net> At 10:28 AM 4/22/99 -0700, Mike wrote: >>that answer equates to "whatever". Describe the mechanics of displaying >>the orientation of a magnetic field in a closed torus? I was trying to >>get someone to think on how thjis may be done impractical or not. > >Gee don't they have little arrows sticking through the middle like my >physics books show? > Are these arrows representing the current that cause the magnetic field inside the toroid? The field remains at some level when the current is removed, thus the storage. -Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 22 13:43:03 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > A PROPOSAL: (for VCF III) > Let us conduct a poll amongst attendees. Given the premise that Instead, or IN ADDITION, how about a contest to DEFINE "Personal Computer"? Two categories: 1) complete definitions 2) individual "requirements" Entries, as received get posted, and all attendees can attempt to identify specific machines that 1) are generally agreed to be "personal computer"s, but fall outside the definition 2) fall within the definition, but are generally agreed to NOT be "personal computer"s From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu Apr 22 13:47:42 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines In-Reply-To: <199904221725.MAA09414@thufir.cs.umn.edu> References: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "Apr 22, 1999 12:50:34 pm" Message-ID: <199904221842.NAA05887@trailingedge.com> On 22 Apr 99, at 12:25, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > a 19" rack (as many minicomputers can be). Sure, you can get a > minicomputer in a non-rack mount version, but show me the person or > company that bought rack mounted apple ][ microcomputers... Rack mounted Apple ][! Now that would have been cool! Would have liked that. ;-) ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 22 13:53:39 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > re: WHAT WAS the first PC.... > The answer IBM... They called their personal computer the PC. BEFORE the 5150, PC was occasionally used to mean "Personal Computer"! A few miles form my house, there was a store named "PC World"!. But they folded up before 8/11/1981. Therefore, I maintain that IBM can not even be credited with NAMING the field. Although it is obviously a requirement for SOME people's definition, I remember a few machines without CRTs, that used printing terminals for I/O. Being able to run FORTRAN on one, it met _MY_ requirements for a "personal computer". From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 22 13:56:07 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Rack mount (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines In-Reply-To: <199904221842.NAA05887@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: > Rack mounted Apple ][! Now that would have been cool! Would > have liked that. ;-) OT: does anyone have a source for some CHEAP rack mount cases for PCs? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Apr 22 14:08:12 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Displaying core states In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990422133527.0109ec30@vpwisfirewall> References: <4.1.19990422112924.03d55c90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990422115705.03d01710@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 01:35 PM 4/22/99 -0500, John Foust wrote: > There's also the $9-$20 "Magnadoodle" technology ... > I thought you had kids. :-) Doh! That's a good thought. (And yes I have kids and yes we've gone through our share of these :-)) Now since Allison has reminded me of what I tried so hard not to learn in EE370 (ElectroM{agnetics/echanics} about the state of flux in a torroid it seems that we will probably have to settle for capturing the "flip" as opposed to reading the state directly. This would require clearing the indicator and the core to a known state, then the capturing the transitions. These transisitions, if I understand this correctly, would exist as the momentary existence of a magnetic field around the torroid. I don't know if anyone on this list has seen The Secret Life of Machines (yeah right) but this is the kind of project Tim Hunkin really gets a kick out of. And I've got to try to do this with nuts from a hardware store since is the right way to do it. (I'm still in awe at how they recorded sound on a scotch tape with rust sprinkled on it!) --Chuck From cmcmanis at freegate.com Thu Apr 22 14:18:45 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Ebay virus on the loose Message-ID: <4.1.19990422121811.03cb1e50@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Forwarded without comment: http://www.tbtf.com/index.html --Chuck From at258 at osfn.org Thu Apr 22 14:23:08 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Wang word proc Free in SoCal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What is it? If as you say, it's a word processor, it could be a Wangwriter, although I hardly think they were THAT big. It sounds like some sort of early VS, which is definitely a lot more than a word processor. More people need to save Wang equipment. If it is a Wangwriter, we're looking for one. On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, John Lawson wrote: > > > I have been offered a largish Wang word processor system... a > washing-machine size CPU and two slightly smaller 8" floppy units, > several terminals and two printers... no doc or software at this time. > > I will get model numbers etc. when I actually get to spend some > time poking around the units. > > My question before I actually commit to saving this from the > dumpster is: anybody want it??? I sure don't... > > They're *big* and heavy, so shipping is definately a factor, > unless you want to arrange to pick it up, in which case there is a > loading dock available. > > Cheers > > John > > PS: TRW Saturday..... > > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 22 16:55:44 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines In-Reply-To: <199904221842.NAA05887@trailingedge.com> References: <199904221725.MAA09414@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <199904221956.VAA05432@horus.mch.sni.de> > > a 19" rack (as many minicomputers can be). Sure, you can get a > > minicomputer in a non-rack mount version, but show me the person or > > company that bought rack mounted apple ][ microcomputers... > Rack mounted Apple ][! Now that would have been cool! Would > have liked that. ;-) Has been done - While on military service I had an Apple II, while two Sergants, also interested into Computers didn't have the money (I took a bank loan) - so we did clone it - our first attempt has been a completly hand wired pice on one board (took just all evenings and weekends for more than half a year until it was running faultfree), while for the second was build as Eurocard modules, also hand wired but way easyer to build - afer that we tried a real clone :) Gee - 1979/1980 was a great time - it is always preferabel, if you are a First Private, and your Sergants _need_ you for their (want-to-have)Computers :) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 22 15:01:55 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Wang word proc Free in SoCal References: Message-ID: <371F8033.DF65D733@rain.org> John Lawson wrote: > > I have been offered a largish Wang word processor system... a > washing-machine size CPU and two slightly smaller 8" floppy units, > several terminals and two printers... no doc or software at this time. I have several Wang systems, so yes, I would be interested but I would be a LOT more interested if there was some documentation and system disks! The largest Wang I have is a bit larger than a Sun2, and alas, it also has no docs or software . From donm at cts.com Thu Apr 22 15:21:15 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Rack mount (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > Rack mounted Apple ][! Now that would have been cool! Would > > have liked that. ;-) > > OT: does anyone have a source for some CHEAP rack mount cases for PCs? I passed by a rack mount unit by Texas Microsystems(?) - passive backplane and all that - at a recent swapmeet. - don > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > From donm at cts.com Thu Apr 22 15:29:39 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Wang word proc Free in SoCal In-Reply-To: <371F8033.DF65D733@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > John Lawson wrote: > > > > I have been offered a largish Wang word processor system... a > > washing-machine size CPU and two slightly smaller 8" floppy units, > > several terminals and two printers... no doc or software at this time. > > I have several Wang systems, so yes, I would be interested but I would be a > LOT more interested if there was some documentation and system disks! The > largest Wang I have is a bit larger than a Sun2, and alas, it also has no > docs or software . > Which units are they, Marvin. I have disks for the old non-ISA, 5.25" drive, Wang PC. - don From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 22 15:41:00 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Ebay virus on the loose References: <4.1.19990422121811.03cb1e50@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <371F895C.76FCA8C1@rain.org> Chuck McManis wrote: > > Forwarded without comment: > http://www.tbtf.com/index.html Interesting, the demo auction with the javascript demo has been retracted on ebay. From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 22 15:43:51 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Nanokit was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing References: <199904221645.SAA26686@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <371F8A07.ACFFBE88@rain.org> Hans Franke wrote: > > > > My name is Wouter, I'm new here, and I never throw anything away. > > > Hi Wouter! :-) > > > > http://ccii.dockside.co.za/~wrm/ccc.html > > > Neat looking computer! And of course there are mamy of us who never throw > > things away. I think there is a law that says that within two weeks of > > throwing anything away, there will be an urgent need for that item! > > Also it is the first SA manufactured system I've heared of. > I WANT ONE ! But you also want that Poly 88 system. Just got a lead on another one where the deal may be that I fix one, and I'll get the other. Coming to VCF 3.0 :)? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 22 17:50:35 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: ePay Joke In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199904222051.WAA07409@horus.mch.sni.de> I know, this is not the eBay list, but since I had to recover several minutes after reading this auction, I believe you all will like it ... SVI 328 (Atari Clone?) plus BONUS: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=94476309 Every time you think you hit the flor, someone was faster :)) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 22 13:46:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: more chording keyboards In-Reply-To: <199904220319.UAA06768@saul9.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Apr 21, 99 08:19:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1167 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990422/8819299b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 22 15:09:42 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <199904221725.MAA09414@thufir.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Apr 22, 99 12:25:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2129 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990422/0f23a46f/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 22 15:58:03 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: ePay Joke In-Reply-To: <199904222051.WAA07409@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 22, 99 10:51:35 pm Message-ID: <199904222058.NAA13390@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 527 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990422/756d84f3/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 22 17:54:35 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Nanokit was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <371F8A07.ACFFBE88@rain.org> Message-ID: <199904222055.WAA07492@horus.mch.sni.de> > > > > My name is Wouter, I'm new here, and I never throw anything away. > > > > Hi Wouter! :-) > > > > http://ccii.dockside.co.za/~wrm/ccc.html > > > Neat looking computer! And of course there are mamy of us who never throw > > > things away. I think there is a law that says that within two weeks of > > > throwing anything away, there will be an urgent need for that item! > > Also it is the first SA manufactured system I've heared of. > > I WANT ONE ! > But you also want that Poly 88 system. Just got a lead on another one where > the deal may be that I fix one, and I'll get the other. If you have a Poly, I'll be on your door within 4 weeks for shure ! > Coming to VCF 3.0 :)? I'll try my best. (Mo-o-om, say, is it far to America ? No my dear, just continue swimming.) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From max82 at surfree.com Thu Apr 22 14:59:20 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Displaying core states In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990422115705.03d01710@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: >> There's also the $9-$20 "Magnadoodle" technology ... >> I thought you had kids. :-) How do those work, anyway? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From max82 at surfree.com Thu Apr 22 15:03:04 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Wang word proc Free in SoCal In-Reply-To: <371F8033.DF65D733@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: >I have several Wang systems, so yes, I would be interested but I would be a >LOT more interested if there was some documentation and system disks! The >largest Wang I have is a bit larger than a Sun2, and alas, it also has no >docs or software . Would you happen to have a Wang tower with two LED displays? I've seen one of these in a thrift store, but hadn't bought it. That tower had a ton of coax connectors on the rear panel. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Apr 22 15:29:45 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues Message-ID: Yes, the dual 5 1/4" Andromeda drive has a single 34 pin connector in the back. What might it be worth to you? Paxton From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 22 16:10:46 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: FRAM (was Re: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?) In-Reply-To: <199904221303.HAA10053@ws2044.colorado.cirrus.com> (clintw@colorado.cirrus.com) References: <199904221303.HAA10053@ws2044.colorado.cirrus.com> Message-ID: <19990422211046.25056.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Actually, there are a few companys making FRAMs. Essentially they use > a small amount of magnetic material to provide non-volatile storage. > They may even be core shaped :) They aren't core-shaped, and they aren't magnetic. The ferroelectric effect isn't even *related* to ferromagnetism. The name is a misnomer, because the effect was misunderstood when it was first discovered. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Apr 22 16:17:29 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues In-Reply-To: from "Innfogra@aol.com" at "Apr 22, 1999 04:29:45 pm" Message-ID: <199904222117.VAA06656@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > Yes, the dual 5 1/4" Andromeda drive has a single 34 pin connector in the > back. What might it be worth to you? > Paxton > Who me? I was looking for an 8" DSDD external floppy drive, not 5.25". -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 22 16:19:04 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <199904221510.KAA09254@thufir.cs.umn.edu> (message from Lawrence LeMay on Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:10:28 -0500 (CDT)) References: <199904221510.KAA09254@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <19990422211904.25125.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The video display didnt come with all PDP-8/e computers as a standard feature. > PDP-8/e systems were Minicomputers, typically rack mounted. And yes, > i realize some cpu units were integrated into small tabletop lab units, > it still stretches the imagination to refer to a particular gutted down > configuration of a minicomputer, as a microcomputer. > > I would think that either a raster graphics capable monitor would > have to come with the computer, or it would have to use a TV as its > standard console (with the video display circuitry built-in as standard > feature). Sure, there is always going to be some person who manages OK, so you are trying to figure out what was the earliest microcomputer with a bitmapped display, that wasn't actually early (since it had to have a monitor as standard, and other relatively modern features). Seems like an exercise in futility. Wait a minute, didn't Sellam already point that out? By your latest criteria, I guess even an S100 box with a Cromemco Dazzler can be ruled out. Is there *anything* that meets your criteria before the Commodore PET? The Apple ][ doesn't, since it didn't come with a monitor. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 22 16:24:20 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:33:45 -0700) References: <4.1.19990421213611.00a46ad0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <19990422212420.25153.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Does anyone have one of those first 4004 terminals that started everything? > Were they even built? ??? If you mean the Busicom calculator that the 4004 and family were designed for, they most certainly were built. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 22 16:29:26 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: more chording keyboards In-Reply-To: <199904221757.KAA29670@saul9.u.washington.edu> (message from Derek Peschel on Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:57:53 -0700 (PDT)) References: <199904221757.KAA29670@saul9.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19990422212926.25193.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I've always wondered how you make a keyboard that has two-key rollover, or > N-key rollover for that matter. I know that most keyboards these days scan > a matrix of switches, but I don't know where rollover comes into that process. For the sake of discussion let's consider only common keyswitches, and not capacitive or hall effect devices. Two key rollover is easy. As long as no more than two keys in the matrix are pressed, the scanning hardware (or software) can reliably detect when each is pressed. However, as soon as three keys may be pressed, you may have extra conduction paths through the key matrix that look like phantom keys, so it is no longer possible to distinguish valid keypresses. N-key rollover is most trivially accomplished by putting a diode in series with each keyswitch, so that there is no problem with phantom keys. Eric From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 22 17:43:24 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: M9302 Capaciters Message-ID: Well, in getting the area around the /44 cleared up I discovered that I've got a M9302 after all, of course there is a reason that they weren't on my inventory list. All the capaciters on the board are pretty well smashed. The printed circuitry is also fairly badly corroded. I think I can probably get it cleaned up enough to use temporarily at least, however, I need to know what size of caps I'm supposed to use (yes, they're that badly smashed. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 22 17:42:06 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <199904222242.AA04978@world.std.com> References: Message-ID: <199904222243.SAA17600@smtp.interlog.com> On 21 Apr 99 at 16:28, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Ok, you asked for it. > > http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml > > This should answer the question "What was the first personal computer?" > once and for all. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com GREAT site !! Who is the Doug referenced in the reply to ? He is to be commended. I see by later posts it is Doug Yowza's page. If you're still monitoring the list -great job, Doug. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Apr 22 13:44:07 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: References: <199904210756.DAA03715@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199904222242.SAA17575@smtp.interlog.com> On 21 Apr 99 at 13:23, Don Maslin wrote: > On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > On 20 Apr 99 at 23:59, Jim Strickland wrote: > > > > > > Out of curiousity was the term for the configuration of > > > > the common tube mantle-radio, "All-American 5", used in the UK and > > > > Europe or is this an expression you've acquired from Yanks. > > > > > > I've seen it used in the US press (albiet magazines about old radios) so > > > I suspect it's from here in the US. If memory serves it's from a 5 tube > > > set (as near as I can tell, very like a chipset today) made by one or more > > > of the major tube manufacturers that had all the components for a simple, > > > inexpensive superhet radio. > > > > > > -- > > > Jim Strickland > > > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Oh, the expression is definitely american. The AA5 were the 12ba6, 12be6, > > 35w4, 50b5 and the 12at6. British and Euro names for the same tubes could be > ^^^^ Wasn't it 50L6? > - don > > > different but basicly the same circuit with occasional variants or additions. > > RCA could have originated it but everyone and his brother put out sets using it > > Kind of like the IBM clones. (in order to get back OT). > > > > ciao larry > > lwalker@interlog.com > > > > Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C > > > I had done a quick look at the schema on the back of an old RCA set I had. Don't remember the "official" original tube but could be, based on the number. There were many variants depending on tube development but functionally the same circuit. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Apr 22 13:44:05 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: GEM GPL'd? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199904222243.SAA17610@smtp.interlog.com> On 22 Apr 99 at 9:16, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Here is a site that claims Caldera just GPL'd GEM. > http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/gemworld.html I've no idea of the validity of > this statement, but apparently the guy running the site browbeat Caldera > into releasing it. They've got a pretty good selection of GEM PC software, > and it sounds like other stuff elsewhere on the site. If you're interested > in such things. > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > > This is Tim Ohlmsteads "Unofficial CP/M Site" . He used to be a regular on the CC mail-list. TMK he has had this available on his site for some time . For anyone into CP/M this site is indispensable. Tim is to be congratulated for the work he put into making all the Caldera stuff available, as is Caldera for releasing it. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Apr 22 13:44:06 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: OT: Welfare state morality In-Reply-To: References: <199904210756.DAA03715@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Apr 21, 99 03:56:36 am Message-ID: <199904222242.SAA17562@smtp.interlog.com> On 21 Apr 99 at 20:38, Tony Duell wrote: > > Oh, the expression is definitely american. The AA5 were the 12ba6, 12be6, > > 35w4, 50b5 and the 12at6. British and Euro names for the same tubes could be > > The European (strictly Philips/Mullard) numbers for those valves are > (I've just looked them up): > > 12BA6 = HF93 (RF/IF pentode) > 12BE6 = HK90 (pentagrid frequency changer) > 12AT6 = HBC90 (double diode triode) > 50B5 = (No european equivalent, but 50C5 = HL94 (output pentode)). > 35W4 = HY90 (rectifier). > > And I'll state that I have _never_ seen any of those valves in a UK > radio. 'H' heaters (150mA) are rare over here, as are pentagrid > converters in mains sets. A typical late-series UK AC/DC set would use : > > UCH81 (triode hexode frequency changer) > UBF89 (double diode + IF amplifier pentode) > UL84 (output pentode) or UCL82 (triode output pentode) > UY85 rectifier > > Or, closer to the AA5 : > > UCH81 > UF89 (IF pentode) > UBC80 (double diode triode) > UL84 > UY85 > > Other possibilities include the B8A 'rimlock' valves : > > UCH42, UF41, UBC41, UL41, UY41. > > Or loctal valves : > UCH21 (triode hexode changer) > UCH21 (hexode as IF amplifier, triode as 1st audio) > UBL21 (double diode + output pentode) > UY21 (rectifier). > > But there were plenty of other variations... > > -tony > Thanks Tony. A good reference to keep with my old radio manuals. I have a book with some Euro equivalents but this is good for recognizing the odd UK one that shows up here. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From danburrows at mindspring.com Thu Apr 22 17:32:59 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: M9302 Capaciters Message-ID: <029c01be8d10$c61dd6b0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> The 3 that are at the end of each chip - .01 disc The 4 at the end of the resistor rows marked 224 i.e. 0.22 IIRC without looking. The 2 in the middle of a row of resistors .001 disc The electrolytic in the middle 39 mfd at 10v. There is only 1 installed even though there is solder mask for 2. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 5:49 PM Subject: M9302 Capaciters >Well, in getting the area around the /44 cleared up I discovered that I've >got a M9302 after all, of course there is a reason that they weren't on my >inventory list. All the capaciters on the board are pretty well smashed. >The printed circuitry is also fairly badly corroded. > >I think I can probably get it cleaned up enough to use temporarily at >least, however, I need to know what size of caps I'm supposed to use (yes, >they're that badly smashed. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 22 17:04:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: M9302 Capaciters In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 22, 99 02:43:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 978 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990422/203c86f2/attachment.ksh From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 22 18:16:30 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Rack mount (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines In-Reply-To: References: <199904221842.NAA05887@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: >> Rack mounted Apple ][! Now that would have been cool! Would >> have liked that. ;-) > >OT: does anyone have a source for some CHEAP rack mount cases for PCs? Where do we all get in line? From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 22 18:13:53 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: Displaying core states In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990422133527.0109ec30@vpwisfirewall> References: <4.1.19990422112924.03d55c90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: >At 11:32 AM 4/22/99 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >>Somewhere in my boxes of stuff I've got one of the tape "visualizer" cards. >>Its looks like a translucent grey plastic card and when you hold it over a >>magnetized surface it shows the magnetic "spots" by turning white (what it > >There's also the $9-$20 "Magnadoodle" technology available in the toy >section of almost any store that flips from white to black after >having been exposed to a magnetic pole. I thought you had kids. :-) I have a spray can of stuff that is used to make analytical measurements on magnetic media. Spray it on, and you can see the tracks and transistions with a microscope. From ss at allegro.com Thu Apr 22 18:18:14 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: ePay Joke In-Reply-To: <199904222051.WAA07409@horus.mch.sni.de> References: Message-ID: <199904222318.QAA20224@bart.allegro.com> Re: > SVI 328 (Atari Clone?) plus BONUS: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=94476309 > > Every time you think you hit the flor, someone was faster :)) Well, at least he didn't say "RARE almost-MSX compatible Z80" :)  I put in a "watch bid" out of curiousity. SS From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 22 19:14:45 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: SUN tape drive was RE: Sun 1 question In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990422083938.22cfdc8c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990422191445.098f630e@intellistar.net> Aaron, It boots to the monitor prompt just fine but it won't boot from the hard drive. It may have been set up to boot from a LAN and just use the hard drive for local storage. I don't know enough about SUNs to know how to tell. Joe At 09:13 AM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote: >What do you need to get the IPC going? I've got a bunch of "extra" Sun >stuff around, so maybe I can help you get it going. > >Or is it something more like non-functioning hardware? Does it boot to the >monitor prompt? > >Aaron > >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > >> Aaron, >> >> Got it open. It has a Exabyte EXB-8505 drive in it. Don't know what >> I'll use it for. I haven't even been able to get my SUN IPC to boot yet. >> >> Thanks for the help. >> Joe > > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 22 18:38:57 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:29 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s Message-ID: <199904222338.AA19942@world.std.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Apr 22, 99 06:44:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2997 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990423/f89929a6/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Apr 22 18:54:17 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: SUN tape drive was RE: Sun 1 question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990422191445.098f630e@intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19990422083938.22cfdc8c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990422165310.00cf5a60@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Most common SPARC death cause is NVRAM battery failure. The most interesting way this manifests itself is that the Sparcstation forgets what architecture it is because it doesn't have a valid host id. See the SPARC NVRAM FAQ for details on fixing this. --Chuck At 07:14 PM 4/22/99 +0000, you wrote: >Aaron, > > It boots to the monitor prompt just fine but it won't boot from the hard >drive. It may have been set up to boot from a LAN and just use the hard >drive for local storage. I don't know enough about SUNs to know how to tell. > > Joe > >At 09:13 AM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote: >>What do you need to get the IPC going? I've got a bunch of "extra" Sun >>stuff around, so maybe I can help you get it going. >> >>Or is it something more like non-functioning hardware? Does it boot to the >>monitor prompt? >> >>Aaron >> >>On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: >> >>> Aaron, >>> >>> Got it open. It has a Exabyte EXB-8505 drive in it. Don't know what >>> I'll use it for. I haven't even been able to get my SUN IPC to boot yet. >>> >>> Thanks for the help. >>> Joe >> >> > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 22 18:56:23 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing Message-ID: <009e01be8d1b$ba7adc80$0100c0a8@fuj03> In reality, I recall that though TI didn't market their products the way Intel does now, they did market their home computers back in the early '80's. What's more they advertised their electronic toys more than all the other fellows you've mentioned combined. The TI salesman called me as often as any of the others, if not more. I was, after all, a user of many of their products, since they had more than any other single manufacturer, and their efforts to make their products accessible to small developers were a great help. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 4:51 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing > >Not quite true. There were the TI business systems, the ti990-xxx boards >that could be systems or used as SBCs and after the TI99/4a there was the >Geneve system that was marketed. Another was a ti9900 board for S100. >Also Technico systems had both the basic Super starter system as a SBC >and expansion boards for it as well. > >It didn't make the impact because TI didn't market it like intel, moto or >Mos tech.. Actually they didn't market it at all until the were an also >ran. Shame too as it was the fist 16bit single chip and vastly better than >8086 considering it was 4 years earlier. >Allison > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 22 20:00:44 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: M9302 Capaciters In-Reply-To: References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 22, 99 02:43:24 pm Message-ID: My thanks to both that provided the info, I kind of figured they're be at least a couple people with that info. Now to make a run to the local electronics place. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 22 20:04:54 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: ePay Joke In-Reply-To: <199904222051.WAA07409@horus.mch.sni.de> References: Message-ID: >I know, this is not the eBay list, but since I had to recover >several minutes after reading this auction, I believe you all >will like it ... > >SVI 328 (Atari Clone?) plus BONUS: >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=94476309 > >Every time you think you hit the flor, someone was faster :)) > >Gruss >H. So what is it? Obviously it's not an Atari clone. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Apr 22 19:04:05 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: Wang further info. Message-ID: Here are the model numbers/descriptions of the Wang system I mentioned back up the list aways: Wang VS7110 with 16MB mem (2) SMD disk controllers (3) 928 Workstation/Printer controllers (1) Multiline TC controller (2) 2295V Disk Storage Cabinets First one: (1) 75MB RSD removable (1) 454 MB SMD fixed (2) 314 MB SMD fixed Second one: (2) 454 MB SMD fixed (2) 5573-1 300 LPM Band Printers (2) third-party terminals. A note attached to the inventory sheet says that the CPU will not IPL due to bad disk in console SCU; disk cabs power up and pass self test. Printers not tested, no cables. ------------- PLEASE NOTE that I am awating the last corporate 'OK' on this stuff pending our Purchasing Department finding out that, in fact, no one is going to buy the gear. No one. Trust me folks.... ;} I imagine I will know Real Soon, because the stuff has to moved prior to May 10th. Again, I am listing this for those who need/love Wang gear... it's not for me. If there is no reasonably positive interest, I will most likely turn it down, and thus it will hit the skip. I can store it for a while if need be. Shipping is on you... (Why couldn't it have been an 11/780???) Cheers John From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 22 20:08:22 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: Ebay virus on the loose In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990422121811.03cb1e50@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: >Forwarded without comment: > http://www.tbtf.com/index.html > >--Chuck Just another reason not to run Javascript I guess. I only have it turned on when I need it. Usually it's just used as an annoyance anyway. Besides last page I ran into with Javascript crashed the browser (Netscape 3.01/AIX) when I tried to use it, so I had to look at the document source to get the link anyway. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 22 20:07:14 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: Rack mount (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines In-Reply-To: References: < <199904221842.NAA05887@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990422200714.234f5b8c@intellistar.net> A friend of mine just got a BUNCH of them. What are they worth? Some of the cases are empty except for the power supply and others have systems in them. Some of them even have two systems in them. The ones with systems have a "mother-board" that really just a back plane, there are no components on it other than sockets and connectors. The CPU and memory are all on a plug-in cards similar to how some of the old Zenith computers were built. The card slots are all standard 16 bit slots and they use regular cards. Right now most of them have TWO CPU cards, TWO floppy drives, TWO hard drives, TWO video cards, TWO HP-IB cards and four other data acquision cards and there's still slots left over. I haven't looked close at the back plane so I don't know how the two system signals are kept separated. It looks like regular PC mother boards will fit in these cases too. These are *NICE* cases with a locking door on the front that covers the floppy drives, power switch, reset switch, keyboard disable, etc. Before anyone asks, he probably will be parting these out for the fancy cards so there may be some cases left over. I'm sure he'll sell the complete units including the fancy cards but they won't be cheap. (Have you ever priced a National Instruments GPIO card?) If anyone is SERIOUSLY interested contact me privately and I'll put you in touch with him. WARNING: this guy is one of those "professional" surplus dealers that would rather trash the stuff than sell it too cheap (in his opinion) so no tire kickers please. Joe At 04:16 PM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote: >>> Rack mounted Apple ][! Now that would have been cool! Would >>> have liked that. ;-) >> >>OT: does anyone have a source for some CHEAP rack mount cases for PCs? > >Where do we all get in line? > > > From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Apr 22 19:08:06 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: New toy, IBM 5140 In-Reply-To: References: <199904221725.MAA09414@thufir.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Apr 22, 99 12:25:11 pm Message-ID: I picked up a nice looking 5140 today, even has a very nice IBM matching carrying case. The wall wart (ac adapter) though looks wrong, its IBM, but its small ala 200 MA (I gotta read the numbers, sorry, but I wanted to post about my new toy right away). Anybody have details on the AC adapter, i know its model 6820822 from a dealer ad, but naturally they don't mention the output voltage etc. Looks like a brick sized unit. Part of the reason I bought this unit was that I thought a L40 ac adapter I saw in another place was the correct unit, but now I am not so sure. Help! It has the manual, but only a couple odd floppies, ie not the essential ones but word or some such. I checked the IBM Canada web site and downloaded the boot disc with app picker, but thats about it so far. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 22 20:24:33 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: ePay Joke In-Reply-To: <199904222318.QAA20224@bart.allegro.com> References: <199904222051.WAA07409@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990422202433.47ff6baa@intellistar.net> Did anybody look at his other auctions? What's that GE Portable computer that he's selling at "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=94023133"? Looks to me like he sould have left it with the kids! Joe At 04:18 PM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote: >Re: > >> SVI 328 (Atari Clone?) plus BONUS: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=94476309 >> >> Every time you think you hit the flor, someone was faster :)) > >Well, at least he didn't say "RARE almost-MSX compatible Z80" :) > >I put in a "watch bid" out of curiousity. > >SS > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 22 20:25:45 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: SUN tape drive was RE: Sun 1 question In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990422165310.00cf5a60@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19990422191445.098f630e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990422202545.47fff1f4@intellistar.net> Thanks for the tip Chuck. I'll check it when I have time (no really!) Joe At 04:54 PM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote: >Most common SPARC death cause is NVRAM battery failure. The most >interesting way this manifests itself is that the Sparcstation forgets what >architecture it is because it doesn't have a valid host id. See the SPARC >NVRAM FAQ for details on fixing this. > >--Chuck > >At 07:14 PM 4/22/99 +0000, you wrote: >>Aaron, >> >> It boots to the monitor prompt just fine but it won't boot from the hard >>drive. It may have been set up to boot from a LAN and just use the hard >>drive for local storage. I don't know enough about SUNs to know how to tell. >> >> Joe >> >>At 09:13 AM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote: >>>What do you need to get the IPC going? I've got a bunch of "extra" Sun >>>stuff around, so maybe I can help you get it going. >>> >>>Or is it something more like non-functioning hardware? Does it boot to the >>>monitor prompt? >>> >>>Aaron >>> >>>On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: >>> >>>> Aaron, >>>> >>>> Got it open. It has a Exabyte EXB-8505 drive in it. Don't know what >>>> I'll use it for. I haven't even been able to get my SUN IPC to boot yet. >>>> >>>> Thanks for the help. >>>> Joe >>> >>> >> > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 22 20:32:58 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: HP Apollo questions Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990422203258.47ffdf78@intellistar.net> I was scrounging today and found a nice looking HP Apollo 400 in a surplus place. The owner didn't know anything about it but I dug around a bit more and found a monitor, mouse and keyboard that worked with it. Connected everything together and fired it up. It booted up with no problems but no one knows the pass word. Does anyone know how to bypass that? It's a model A2536A with a HP model A1097C monitor and HP/Apollo model A1630 keyboard. Can anyone tell me more about these? I know nothing about the Apollo computers. Any idea how usefull this thing is or what it's worth? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 22 20:35:58 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: 1702 EPROM question Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990422203558.0acf24bc@intellistar.net> I scrounged around a found a stock of Intel 1702 EPROMs today. I know some of you have been looking for these. What are they worth? Joe From at258 at osfn.org Thu Apr 22 19:27:52 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: Wang further info. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A VS7000? Really nice. You might post it on the VS list... That printer and those drives are pretty heavy.... On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, John Lawson wrote: > > > Here are the model numbers/descriptions of the Wang system > I mentioned back up the list aways: > > > Wang VS7110 with > 16MB mem > (2) SMD disk controllers > (3) 928 Workstation/Printer controllers > (1) Multiline TC controller > > (2) 2295V Disk Storage Cabinets > > First one: > (1) 75MB RSD removable > (1) 454 MB SMD fixed > (2) 314 MB SMD fixed > > Second one: > (2) 454 MB SMD fixed > > (2) 5573-1 300 LPM Band Printers > > (2) third-party terminals. > > A note attached to the inventory sheet says that the CPU will not > IPL due to bad disk in console SCU; disk cabs power up and pass self > test. > > Printers not tested, no cables. > > ------------- > > > PLEASE NOTE that I am awating the last corporate 'OK' on this > stuff pending our Purchasing Department finding out that, in fact, > no one is going to buy the gear. No one. Trust me folks.... ;} > > I imagine I will know Real Soon, because the stuff has to moved > prior to May 10th. > > > Again, I am listing this for those who need/love Wang gear... it's > not for me. If there is no reasonably positive interest, I will > most likely turn it down, and thus it will hit the skip. I can store > it for a while if need be. Shipping is on you... > > > > (Why couldn't it have been an 11/780???) > > > Cheers > > John > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 22 19:48:50 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <990422083015.20c00997@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > Neon lamps - when powered by DC - have a nice memory property: They > take about 90VDC to light up, but after they light up they'll stay on > until the voltage drops below 60VDC or so. Only problems are: > > 1. The thresholds can vary greatly from unit to unit. > > 2. The thresholds will vary depending on ambient light, as well. > > Property 2 above can be used to build oscillators out of pairs > of neons, as a matter of fact... There was a funny story related to that issue (#2) at one of the Computer Museum History Center's computer history lectures a few months ago. I hope my attribution is correct, but I seem to remember it was the Johnniac computer that used neon memory. One day it started malfunctioning. To make a long story short, the cleaning woman used to come into the computer room where the Johnniac was, vacuum about, then turn off the lights when she was done before she left the room. The computer would start malfunctioning once the lights went out. It took the operators and engineers a while to figure it all out :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 22 20:55:16 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: More 3rd Party DEC boards Message-ID: Hmmm, this is really odd, I found some more boards that I don't seem to have inventoried today. Anyone have any ideas on these? Versatec PDP-11 Matrix control This is a dual height board, but I'm pretty sure it's for a UNIBUS system, thanks to the wierd connector sticking out the side of it for another board. DILOG DQ342 Quad Height, has a 34 and a 10-pin connector SCD-RQD11/EC Quad Height, 4 20-pin connectors, 1 34-pin, and 1 10-pin. 3 LED's 2 green, 1 red. I think it's a Sigma ESDI controller, based on doing a DejaNews search, it also looks like it _might_ be basically a rebadged WQESD controller, since the one article talks about WOMBAT. Is this correct, and can I just use my WQESD manual for it? Plessey P/N 705920-100A Quad Height, RAM board Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 22 19:58:40 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: z80 timing... 6502 timing In-Reply-To: <001901be8cd0$a2df9340$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Since we've not seen any code for the 6502 yet, this may not be a problem, > but since Apple didn't exactly make it easy to exchange diskettes with other > systems, how would you propose to transfer a file, binary or otherwise > between systems? Though I haven't gotten into it, I figured on > cross-assembling from a PC to a PROM. That makes it easy for me, but how > will others do it? > > It's enough of a problem transferring files from, say, a CP/M box running a > Z-80, since PC's don't read 8" disks. > > How should this be dealt with? There's this insane invention called a Modulator-Demodulator, or "modem" for short. It takes computer data and converts (modulates) it into tones that can be transmitted over a standard telephone line, where it is then converted back (demodulated) to the computer on the receiving end. Current technology allows for transmission rates as high as 56,000 bps (not to be confused with Baud). Oh, and they put a man on the moon, too. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 22 19:59:57 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <199904221510.KAA09254@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > The video display didnt come with all PDP-8/e computers as a standard feature. > PDP-8/e systems were Minicomputers, typically rack mounted. And yes, > i realize some cpu units were integrated into small tabletop lab units, > it still stretches the imagination to refer to a particular gutted down > configuration of a minicomputer, as a microcomputer. I don't think the "micro" in microcomputer ever was intended to represent its physical size, but rather that it was based on microprocessor technology. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From ddameron at earthlink.net Thu Apr 22 16:40:02 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: 1702 EPROM question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990422203558.0acf24bc@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990422164002.23c772e6@earthlink.net> At 08:35 PM 4/22/99, Joe wrote: >I scrounged around a found a stock of Intel 1702 EPROMs today. I know some >of you have been looking for these. What are they worth? > Are these 1702 or 1702A? -Dave From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Apr 22 20:08:21 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: More 3rd Party DEC boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990422180711.00cf2b90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 05:55 PM 4/22/99 -0800, Zane wrote: >SCD-RQD11/EC >Quad Height, 4 20-pin connectors, 1 34-pin, and 1 10-pin. 3 LED's 2 green, >1 red. I think it's a Sigma ESDI controller, based on doing a DejaNews >search, it also looks like it _might_ be basically a rebadged WQESD >controller, since the one article talks about WOMBAT. Is this correct, and >can I just use my WQESD manual for it? Yup, exactly right. ESDI Q-bus controller (four drives) seems to have some incompatibility with NetBSD :-(. Which version of Wombat is installed? --Chuck From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 22 20:04:55 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: More 3rd Party DEC boards Message-ID: <990422210455.20c00c64@trailing-edge.com> > Versatec > PDP-11 Matrix control > This is a dual height board, but I'm pretty sure it's for a UNIBUS system, > thanks to the wierd connector sticking out the side of it for another board. Yeah, connectors out the side almost always signals non-Q-bus. This is part of the set that runs (surprise!) a Versatec plotter - think of it as a really labor-intensive laserprinter and you won't be too far off. >DILOG DQ342 >Quad Height, has a 34 and a 10-pin connector I think this is a MSCP MFM disk controller (there was also a floppy-only version.) >SCD-RQD11/EC >Quad Height, 4 20-pin connectors, 1 34-pin, and 1 10-pin. 3 LED's 2 green, >1 red. I think it's a Sigma ESDI controller, based on doing a DejaNews >search, it also looks like it _might_ be basically a rebadged WQESD >controller, since the one article talks about WOMBAT. Is this correct, and >can I just use my WQESD manual for it? The WQESD is the same as the SCD-RQD11/EC is the same as the Qualogy equivalent is the same as the DSD equivalent is the same as the American Digital Equivalent... *All* designed by Webster out of Australia. >Plessey >P/N 705920-100A >Quad Height, RAM board Count the chips, identify their type, and you know the size! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 22 20:05:49 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <002401be8cd3$5e27b040$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > One aspect of this matter I'm already seeing ignored is the COST. That > so-called FIRST personal computer which cost $300 in the early '50's, for > example, cost quite a lot of money. In the '50's, it was unusual for anyone > to earn $100 a week. A mid-priced Chevrolet cost less than $2000 and $10 a > week was plenty for a week's groceries for a family of 4. That cost was estimated. The computer was only sold as a plan. The buyer had to find the pieces to make it go and assemble it themselves. So its conceivable this machine could have been built for free, providing one could find all the pieces salvaged from old equipment. Regardless, it was still a computer that one could very easily have owned in the 50s, which is more than you can say about a Univac or IBM 70x series machine. > Not even DEC's so-called personal computers were competitive enough to > interest an industry professional. The DEC mini's weren't even a good buy > as they became obsolete. I doubt DEC equipment was EVER used where there > wasn't a third party present who profited from its use. That doesn't mean > they weren't appropriate and suitable for a wide range of uses, but it > certainly doesn't characterize a personal computer. Huh? > Just to put things into perspective, a week's groceries, these days, for a > family of four, cost about $150, a decent mid-priced car costs $15000, and a > farily well equipped and appropriately designated personal computer with a > 400MHz pentium, 8GB HDD, 64MB of RAM, OS installed, all the multimedia > features, plus a current-generation modem (V.90) costs $400 less the monitor > with monitors costing $139 for a 15" and $300 for a 20" type. These prices > are from Best-Buy's ad in last Sunday's paper. You can probably do better > if you shop. These prices are also based on technology that has had 50 years to mature, and therefore the comparison is entirely invalid. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 22 20:06:58 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: More 3rd Party DEC boards Message-ID: <990422210658.20c00c64@trailing-edge.com> >>DILOG DQ342 >>Quad Height, has a 34 and a 10-pin connector > >I think this is a MSCP MFM disk controller (there was also a floppy-only >version.) Found it in the book - this is, indeed, the floppy-only version. Tim. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 22 20:07:36 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990422103246.011d9420@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, John Foust wrote: > At 11:31 PM 4/21/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > >That's Doug Salot's (Yowza) creation. What about his assertion don't you > >agree with? I think he's right on the mark. > > I became mightly confused when I searched my bookmarks for > "classic computer" and found , > which was 404, so I trimmed off "faq.txt" and tried again, which 404'd, > and then thought must be some kind of parody > that Doug assembled, but now I'm not sure. Did he sell the domain? The domain was sold a few months ago. He wasn't told it would become what it did (: Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 22 20:09:25 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <990422210925.20c00c64@trailing-edge.com> >> Just to put things into perspective, a week's groceries, these days, for a >> family of four, cost about $150, a decent mid-priced car costs $15000, and a >> farily well equipped and appropriately designated personal computer with a >> 400MHz pentium, 8GB HDD, 64MB of RAM, OS installed, all the multimedia >> features, plus a current-generation modem (V.90) costs $400 less the monitor >> with monitors costing $139 for a 15" and $300 for a 20" type. These prices >> are from Best-Buy's ad in last Sunday's paper. You can probably do better >> if you shop. >These prices are also based on technology that has had 50 years to mature, >and therefore the comparison is entirely invalid. "If the automobile had followed the same price-performance changes as the computer industry in the past 50 years, a Rolls Royce would today cost $4.95, get two million miles to the gallon, go 50000 MPH, and explode once a day, killing everyone inside." -- Robert X. Cringley -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 22 21:14:54 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: ePay Joke In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990422202433.47ff6baa@intellistar.net> References: <199904222318.QAA20224@bart.allegro.com> <199904222051.WAA07409@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: >Did anybody look at his other auctions? What's that GE Portable computer >that he's selling at >"http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=94023133"? Looks >to me like he sould have left it with the kids! > > Joe I think the bids on this one are how much he would have to pay you to take it! On the otherhand the Circuit boards might be OK. So I guess if you were looking for parts.... Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Apr 22 20:15:21 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <19990422211904.25125.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Apr 22, 1999 09:19:04 pm" Message-ID: <199904230115.BAA07027@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > The video display didnt come with all PDP-8/e computers as a standard feature. > > PDP-8/e systems were Minicomputers, typically rack mounted. And yes, > > i realize some cpu units were integrated into small tabletop lab units, > > it still stretches the imagination to refer to a particular gutted down > > configuration of a minicomputer, as a microcomputer. > > > > I would think that either a raster graphics capable monitor would > > have to come with the computer, or it would have to use a TV as its > > standard console (with the video display circuitry built-in as standard > > feature). Sure, there is always going to be some person who manages > > OK, so you are trying to figure out what was the earliest microcomputer with > a bitmapped display, that wasn't actually early (since it had to have a > monitor as standard, and other relatively modern features). Seems like > an exercise in futility. Wait a minute, didn't Sellam already point that > out? > > By your latest criteria, I guess even an S100 box with a Cromemco Dazzler > can be ruled out. Is there *anything* that meets your criteria before the > Commodore PET? The Apple ][ doesn't, since it didn't come with a monitor. > Actually, I almost went ahead and said i didnt think a cromemco with a Dazzler would qualify. a Terak MIGHT qualify (this is a LSi-11 system with built in video, and 8" floppy drive). The LSI-11 i'm not so sure about though.. The Apple ][ would qualify, it came with built-in video. -Lawrence LeMay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 22 20:20:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: More 3rd Party DEC boards In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 22, 99 05:55:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1883 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990423/cb6111b1/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Apr 22 20:24:21 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: New toy, IBM 5140 Message-ID: <4fba717d.245125c5@aol.com> In a message dated 99-04-22 20:15:58 EDT, you write: > I picked up a nice looking 5140 today, even has a very nice IBM matching > carrying case. The wall wart (ac adapter) though looks wrong, its IBM, but > its small ala 200 MA (I gotta read the numbers, sorry, but I wanted to post > about my new toy right away). > > Anybody have details on the AC adapter, i know its model 6820822 from a > dealer ad, but naturally they don't mention the output voltage etc. Looks > like a brick sized unit. > yes, it is size of a brick! mine says output15v dc 2.7A original memory size was 256k. how much memory does yours have? The machine actually has power management including standby. Not many programs will run on it but nice to have 720k floppies though. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 22 21:29:28 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: More 3rd Party DEC boards In-Reply-To: <990422210658.20c00c64@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >>>DILOG DQ342 >>>Quad Height, has a 34 and a 10-pin connector >> >>I think this is a MSCP MFM disk controller (there was also a floppy-only >>version.) > >Found it in the book - this is, indeed, the floppy-only version. > >Tim. UNIBUS or QBUS? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 22 20:29:04 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Doug's site is well researched and MAGNIFICENT in its presentation. Agreed! > But, inevitably, his choices of "requirements" are completely > arbitrary. MOST of them, I agree with! But they are still arbitrary. > For example: WHY "digital NOT analog"? If there were to exist an > analog machine with a complete operating system, peripherals, office > productivity suite, etc. would that not be a "personal computer"? Are you sure you understand the concept of an "analog computer"? They are of an entirely different paradigm than a digital computer. > His choices for "requirements" are VERY REASONABLE. But still completely > arbitrary. "moveable by one person" WHY? Seems like a good idea, but > what about a computer built into an office desk? Because if it took two or more people to move then it wouldn't be "personal" anymore. You'd have to get someone else involved to do so. But in general I agree with you: the requirements are arbitrary, but they do make good sense. > BTW, yes, Doug DID say that he was selling the domain name. Presumably he > did; or has he merely taken on a new hobby? It was sold. I like the new site much better ;) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 22 21:31:18 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: More 3rd Party DEC boards In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990422180711.00cf2b90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: Message-ID: >At 05:55 PM 4/22/99 -0800, Zane wrote: >>SCD-RQD11/EC >>Quad Height, 4 20-pin connectors, 1 34-pin, and 1 10-pin. 3 LED's 2 green, >>1 red. I think it's a Sigma ESDI controller, based on doing a DejaNews >>search, it also looks like it _might_ be basically a rebadged WQESD >>controller, since the one article talks about WOMBAT. Is this correct, and >>can I just use my WQESD manual for it? > >Yup, exactly right. ESDI Q-bus controller (four drives) seems to have some >incompatibility with NetBSD :-(. > >Which version of Wombat is installed? >--Chuck Don't know, as I don't want to mess around with my main system now that almost everything works fine. Hope to set up another Q-Bus system in the next few days as I should be getting another chassis. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 22 20:34:57 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <001601be8d29$7fa8d860$0100c0a8@fuj03> No, what's relevant isn't the technology and its state of maturity, but the comparison of the relative value of the numbers. Today, it's just assumed that if you buy an item for $300 and it subsequently breaks, you shrug your shoulders and throw it away. Back in the '50's, not many people were silly enough to do that. My comment about DEC is based on my observation that the only thing one could count on from DEC was that it would cost a lot. You seldom got technology less than an generation old, and they didn't provide systems integration services gratis as did nearly every other manufacturer, even Big Blue. As a consequence, these services were provided by the bloated aerospace and defense contracting industry. They (DEC) wouldn't sell directly to the government because that required they let government auditors look at their books. There was too much risk that the word would leak out that their profit margins on their mini's were pretty generous. That would have led to competition, which they really never enjoyed. There's nothing wrong with their products, but they were not tuned for nor were they suited for the personal computer market . . . not even the ones they claimed were. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 7:17 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> One aspect of this matter I'm already seeing ignored is the COST. That >> so-called FIRST personal computer which cost $300 in the early '50's, for >> example, cost quite a lot of money. In the '50's, it was unusual for anyone >> to earn $100 a week. A mid-priced Chevrolet cost less than $2000 and $10 a >> week was plenty for a week's groceries for a family of 4. > >That cost was estimated. The computer was only sold as a plan. The buyer >had to find the pieces to make it go and assemble it themselves. So its >conceivable this machine could have been built for free, providing one >could find all the pieces salvaged from old equipment. > >Regardless, it was still a computer that one could very easily have owned >in the 50s, which is more than you can say about a Univac or IBM 70x >series machine. > >> Not even DEC's so-called personal computers were competitive enough to >> interest an industry professional. The DEC mini's weren't even a good buy >> as they became obsolete. I doubt DEC equipment was EVER used where there >> wasn't a third party present who profited from its use. That doesn't mean >> they weren't appropriate and suitable for a wide range of uses, but it >> certainly doesn't characterize a personal computer. > >Huh? > >> Just to put things into perspective, a week's groceries, these days, for a >> family of four, cost about $150, a decent mid-priced car costs $15000, and a >> farily well equipped and appropriately designated personal computer with a >> 400MHz pentium, 8GB HDD, 64MB of RAM, OS installed, all the multimedia >> features, plus a current-generation modem (V.90) costs $400 less the monitor >> with monitors costing $139 for a 15" and $300 for a 20" type. These prices >> are from Best-Buy's ad in last Sunday's paper. You can probably do better >> if you shop. > >These prices are also based on technology that has had 50 years to mature, >and therefore the comparison is entirely invalid. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Apr 22 16:38:12 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: ePay Joke In-Reply-To: <199904222051.WAA07409@horus.mch.sni.de> References: Message-ID: <199904230136.VAA26654@smtp.interlog.com> On 22 Apr 99 at 22:51, Hans Franke wrote: > I know, this is not the eBay list, but since I had to recover > several minutes after reading this auction, I believe you all > will like it ... > > SVI 328 (Atari Clone?) plus BONUS: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=94476309 > > Every time you think you hit the flor, someone was faster :)) > > Gruss > H. > Actually, the one that got me was the Atari 800 which is as I write is at $315 and doesn't close until the 28th ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 22 20:37:32 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, James Willing wrote: > A PROPOSAL: (for VCF III) > > Let us conduct a poll amongst attendees. Given the premise that > small/personal/affordable/almost inexpensive/etc. computers are new again, > and they are looking for a computer that they would like to own for > personal use (avoiding the phrase "personal computer" at all costs), what > machine (among those on display) would they select for their use. > > The winner could then be designated the 'Official' VCF III "Computer for > Personal Use". (until the following year) This is actually close to one of the judging categories we have come up with for the VCF 3.0 exhibit: the People's Choice award. The winner of this award will be chosen by the attendees. BTW, the rules for the exhibit competition will be posted shortly. We're working out the final details! > 5) Balloting will be by mark-sense form ("class, take out your #2 pencils, > and fill in the bubbles completely!"), and will be processed on > appropriately vintage equipment at Noon on Sunday. Hey, I never thought of putting my old punch card equipment to work :) > Prizes for the winner (as if the honor of the designation is not > sufficient) are yet to be determined. But when you get it, it's gonna be > good! I'm in the process of amassing a nice collection of prizes! > Additional thoughts/comments welcome! Mayhaps this will encourage more > folks to have their gear in operation! The intention of the exhibit is to in fact get people to participate directly in VCF while at the same time advancing the hobby by getting folks to really get to know more about their machines by doing the research and preparation necessary for an exhibit. Stay tuned, the announcement and rules for the first VCF exhibit competition will be posted shortly! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 22 20:41:15 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, James Willing wrote: > On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > > > A PROPOSAL: (for VCF III) > > > > > > > > Maybe we should fix that only systems within the 10 year rule can be classified. > > Dang! I knew I was forgetting something! > > 6) In order to be eligible, the unit must have entered production (or > in the case of a construction article based unit, been published) prior to > the introduction of the IBM "PC". (198?... dang, brain fade!) 1981. August to be exact. All these facts and more can be found in Kevin Polsson's excellent timeline at http://www1.islandnet.com/~kpolsson/comphist.htm Anyway, hold your pants on! The rules for the exhibit are coming soon! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Apr 22 20:42:53 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: M9302 Capaciters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990422213051.00a926d0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 02:43 PM 4/22/99 -0800, Zane H. Healy said something like: >Well, in getting the area around the /44 cleared up I discovered that I've >got a M9302 after all, of course there is a reason that they weren't on my >inventory list. All the capaciters on the board are pretty well smashed. >The printed circuitry is also fairly badly corroded. Use Scotchbrite or steel wool to clean off the corrosion. *Make sure* you get all the steel wool bits out either by blowing off with air hose or running through dishwasher (if your wife doesn't catch you ;) Scotchbrite under warm water is best though. If any bare copper traces show now, cover the edge conns and shoot the solder-side with clear enamel or perhaps clear shellac spray to protect from further corrosion. This has always given me good results when I do pc board restorations. > >I think I can probably get it cleaned up enough to use temporarily at >least, however, I need to know what size of caps I'm supposed to use (yes, >they're that badly smashed. I'm not near my 9302's to check but if they're 0.1 mfd I have a ton of them (well, a thousand or two pieces . . .) Either axial lead glass-encased ceramic or radial disk ceramic both at 50 WVDC. Let me know if that's what the value is and I'll send you what you need. If they're 0.01's, then I may not have any but I can do some heavy digging to check anyway. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 22 20:44:51 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: And what IS your hobby? Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Considering that the discussion is nominally about "PERSONAL computers", > which presumably means computers for individual use, rather than > industrial/commercial/governmental/military, I have to wonder about posts > that nominate fighter planes, missile computers, and smart bombs. > I do sincerely hope that I haven't said anything to offend you. I was specifically speculating on the first "microcomputer" in that message. In which case, its an appropriate assertion to nominate the F14 Central Air Data Computer. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Apr 22 20:48:39 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: M9302 Capaciters In-Reply-To: <029c01be8d10$c61dd6b0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: <4.1.19990422214518.00a64120@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 06:32 PM 4/22/99 -0400, Daniel T. Burrows said something like: >The 3 that are at the end of each chip - .01 disc >The 4 at the end of the resistor rows marked 224 i.e. 0.22 IIRC without >looking. >The 2 in the middle of a row of resistors .001 disc >The electrolytic in the middle 39 mfd at 10v. There is only 1 installed >even though there is solder mask for 2. >Dan > >-----Original Message----- >From: Zane H. Healy >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 5:49 PM >Subject: M9302 Capaciters > > >>Well, in getting the area around the /44 cleared up I discovered that I've >>got a M9302 after all, of course there is a reason that they weren't on my >>inventory list. All the capaciters on the board are pretty well smashed. >>The printed circuitry is also fairly badly corroded. >> >>I think I can probably get it cleaned up enough to use temporarily at >>least, however, I need to know what size of caps I'm supposed to use (yes, >>they're that badly smashed. Well Zane, ignore my post of a few minutes ago offereing 0.1's or 0.01's as Dan was able to come to the rescue with the requirements. You could get these at your local electronics distributor if they have counter sales for small quantities or mail order from DigiKey, Jameco and several others you may know of. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 22 20:53:48 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: Displaying core states In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990422115705.03d01710@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > I don't know if anyone on this list has seen The Secret Life of Machines When does this show even come on anymore, and on what channel? It used to appear on the Discovery channel but now all they show is stupid animal and military weapons of mass destruction programs, which both bore me mostly (although those monkey's can be pretty darn cute sometimes). > (yeah right) but this is the kind of project Tim Hunkin really gets a kick > out of. And I've got to try to do this with nuts from a hardware store > since is the right way to do it. (I'm still in awe at how they recorded > sound on a scotch tape with rust sprinkled on it!) I'm in awe of that wire recorded I got a couple months back! That thing rocks! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From william at ans.net Thu Apr 22 20:58:27 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > There are plenty of rackmount micros, though. I've seen rackmount IBM PC > clones. The 7532 is the real IBM rackmount PC - they are pretty rare. William Donzelli william@ans.net From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 22 21:02:16 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <002701be8d2d$505efe00$0100c0a8@fuj03> I suspect that few of the readers of this list remember the early '50's as I do. I wasn't trying to compare or contrast the prices of the antique computers which were under discussion, but rather point out that few people would put out a month's pay (gross) for a personal computer, even today. In the early '50's there were more people, including some professionals, with less than $300 after taxes (and they were MUCH lower then) than there were people earning more. There wasn't yet a minimum wage of $1.00 per hour, and, in fact, when I had a minimum wage job in '60, I earned <$5.00 per 8-hour day. Naturally a $300 computer wasn't on my list of things to buy. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 7:20 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >>> Just to put things into perspective, a week's groceries, these days, for a >>> family of four, cost about $150, a decent mid-priced car costs $15000, and a >>> farily well equipped and appropriately designated personal computer with a >>> 400MHz pentium, 8GB HDD, 64MB of RAM, OS installed, all the multimedia >>> features, plus a current-generation modem (V.90) costs $400 less the monitor >>> with monitors costing $139 for a 15" and $300 for a 20" type. These prices >>> are from Best-Buy's ad in last Sunday's paper. You can probably do better >>> if you shop. > >>These prices are also based on technology that has had 50 years to mature, >>and therefore the comparison is entirely invalid. > >"If the automobile had followed the same price-performance changes as >the computer industry in the past 50 years, a Rolls Royce would today cost >$4.95, get two million miles to the gallon, go 50000 MPH, and explode >once a day, killing everyone inside." -- Robert X. Cringley > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 22 21:04:12 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: ePay Joke In-Reply-To: <199904222058.NAA13390@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::SVI 328 (Atari Clone?) plus BONUS: > ::http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=94476309 > > *Atari* clone?! No, its a SpectraVideo. He's only saying it "looks" like an Atari 800XL, which it decidedly does not. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 22 22:18:57 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: 1702 EPROM question In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990422164002.23c772e6@earthlink.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19990422203558.0acf24bc@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990422221857.500fa314@intellistar.net> At 04:40 PM 4/22/99, Dave asked: >At 08:35 PM 4/22/99, Joe wrote: >>I scrounged around a found a stock of Intel 1702 EPROMs today. I know some >>of you have been looking for these. What are they worth? >> >Are these 1702 or 1702A? 1702A, 1702A-2 and 1702AQ Joe From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 22 20:07:18 1999 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: HP Apollo questions In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:32:58 . <3.0.1.16.19990422203258.47ffdf78@intellistar.net> Message-ID: In message <3.0.1.16.19990422203258.47ffdf78@intellistar.net>, Joe writes: >I was scrounging today and found a nice looking HP Apollo 400 in a surplus >place. The owner didn't know anything about it but I dug around a bit more >and found a monitor, mouse and keyboard that worked with it. Connected >everything together and fired it up. It booted up with no problems but no >one knows the pass word. Does anyone know how to bypass that? It's a >model A2536A with a HP model A1097C monitor and HP/Apollo model A1630 >keyboard. Can anyone tell me more about these? I know nothing about the >Apollo computers. Any idea how usefull this thing is or what it's worth? I, too, picked one up not too long ago. After doing a little web searching, I found several things. The one URL I wrote down (which I think was the root of everything I found) is: http://www.umich.edu/~archive/apollo/ Good luck with yours. I haven't had time to do much with mine. Brian L. Stuart From djenner at halcyon.com Thu Apr 22 21:16:34 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: More 3rd Party DEC boards References: Message-ID: <371FD802.5F2B5DFA@halcyon.com> The Versatec produced great troff output on that stinky paper. The boxes the paper came in are really great for storing all sorts of stuff. I still have loads of them for holding smallish parts, and the boxes fit perfectly 3 per bankers box if you really want to protect/organize stuff. Dave Tony Duell wrote: > It's probably the controller for a 'Versatec Electrostatic Matrix > Plotter' - one of the craziest printers you're ever likely to see. I have > a more modern version - a V80 here, with an ICL badge on it. > -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 22 21:21:25 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:30 2005 Subject: And what IS your hobby? Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good. I just didn't want to add too many more collectors of "weapons of mass destruction" to the list of people that I have offended. From donm at cts.com Thu Apr 22 22:28:01 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Rack mount (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >> Rack mounted Apple ][! Now that would have been cool! Would > >> have liked that. ;-) > > > >OT: does anyone have a source for some CHEAP rack mount cases for PCs? > > Where do we all get in line? Should I pick up that Texas Microsystems(?) box if I see it again? - don From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 22 22:29:47 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, William Donzelli wrote: > > There are plenty of rackmount micros, though. I've seen rackmount IBM PC > > clones. > > The 7532 is the real IBM rackmount PC - they are pretty rare. I found one in a thrift store not too long ago. It was pretty, but they wanted too much for it, so I passed. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 22 22:49:11 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: And what IS your hobby? Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > I just didn't want to add too many more collectors of "weapons of mass > destruction" to the list of people that I have offended. It takes an incredible assault of the mind and senses to offend me. Like a horridly pungent fart would do it, but really nothing else that I can think of. I'm the unoffendable :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 22 22:51:20 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <199904230115.BAA07027@thorin.cs.umn.edu> (message from Lawrence LeMay on Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:15:21 -0500 (CDT)) References: <199904230115.BAA07027@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <19990423035120.27254.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The Apple ][ would qualify, it came with built-in video. The Apple ][ did not come with a built-in monitor; a monitor was not even available from the manufacturer. The PDP-8/e with VT8-E that I mentioned earlier was shipped by DEC with the VT8-E installed, and DEC provided a monitor. You are making distinctions even more arbitrary (IMHO) than most of the "first PC" arguments. It seems like you are picking your criteria in order to get an answer you've already selected. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 22 23:05:48 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <001601be8d29$7fa8d860$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > No, what's relevant isn't the technology and its state of maturity, but the > comparison of the relative value of the numbers. Today, it's just assumed > that if you buy an item for $300 and it subsequently breaks, you shrug your > shoulders and throw it away. Back in the '50's, not many people were silly > enough to do that. So what? $300, even back in the 50s, was still realistically within the price range of the average American. A multi-million dollar mainframe was not. $300 vs $$$millions is a significant difference. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 22 23:55:02 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s Message-ID: <001c01be8d45$72c62280$0100c0a8@fuj03> The Apple-][ most certainly did come with built-in Video. That's just about all that was built-in. BTW, I just gave away one which had an APPLE brand monitor with it. I bought seven of these at one time, because they did something I didn't want to have to reinvent, but though the video monitor came with it, the Apple video is not the monitor, it's the refresh memory and the video control and timing logic to support it. Of course I've still got one with only a single drive, + multiple controllers each capable of either two or four drives, and a bunch of other cards, etc. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 10:01 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s >> The Apple ][ would qualify, it came with built-in video. > >The Apple ][ did not come with a built-in monitor; a monitor was not even >available from the manufacturer. > >The PDP-8/e with VT8-E that I mentioned earlier was shipped by DEC with the >VT8-E installed, and DEC provided a monitor. > >You are making distinctions even more arbitrary (IMHO) than most of the >"first PC" arguments. It seems like you are picking your criteria in order >to get an answer you've already selected. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 23 00:03:45 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <002101be8d46$aa9262e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach of the "average" American. First of all, it was over a month's pay for the average American, it was equivalent to six months' groceries for a family of four, and you could get a refrigerator or a washer, neither of which were routine discretionary expenditures for the "average" American of that time. That was during and immediately after the Korean war, when a 4-bedroom house on a 1/4-acre lot cost $4600. That same house, now, in California would cost you $4600 a month to rent. People's attitudes about what's important enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. $300 was not an expenditure an "average" American would consider lightly in 1952. That was the year I came to this country. There was an election between Adlai E. Stevenson (Democrat) and Dwight D. Eisenhower (Republican). It was BEFORE the first test of a hydrogen bomb. People weren't crazy then as they are now . . . and all the loose nuts hadn't yet learned to run to California. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 10:16 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> No, what's relevant isn't the technology and its state of maturity, but the >> comparison of the relative value of the numbers. Today, it's just assumed >> that if you buy an item for $300 and it subsequently breaks, you shrug your >> shoulders and throw it away. Back in the '50's, not many people were silly >> enough to do that. > >So what? $300, even back in the 50s, was still realistically within the >price range of the average American. A multi-million dollar mainframe was >not. $300 vs $$$millions is a significant difference. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 23 01:09:13 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Bringing up a old Powersupply Message-ID: I'm getting ready to test the /44's Power Supply tomorrow. Finished the initial AC checks tonite, of verifying that the power distribution unit is working. However, I just remembered a thread that was on the list MONTHS ago about powering on Power Supplies that have been out of service for half of forever. I seem to recall something about slowly applying AC power to the powersupply. I've got access to a variable powersupply that will provide 0-140 VAC. Is this a good idea? If so, how slowly is a good idea? Also, in talking to a friend tonite he was suggesting I hook an O-Scope up to the PS to check for "ripple". Is this necessary? I've got a scope, but honestly do not have any idea how to use it, and haven't had time to learn. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 23 00:27:00 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <002101be8d46$aa9262e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <4.1.19990422222118.00a3dec0@mcmanis.com> At 11:03 PM 4/22/99 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >$300 was not an expenditure an "average" American would consider lightly in >1952. SNIP. Until recently, the "Average Selling Price" for a "personal" computer was between $2,500 and $3,000. This is, if I may say so, a months pay for a lot of US residents today. The _only_ difference was that in 1952 there wasn't a compelling need for a computer like there was for a car. Therefore, computers were the "toys" of the highly paid, and $300 would not have been much of a hurdle for them. (they bought sports cars after all to race on weekends) The last 12 - 18 months and the "sub-1000" then "sub-500" dollar PC is an anomaly as PCs transitions from are recognizably computers into something that is much more like your microwave oven. Except in this case it will be a web surfing, text editing, and email communicating station. Those of us who are buying these machines and setting them up as UNIX servers are way in the minority :-) --Chuck From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 23 00:19:25 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <002101be8d46$aa9262e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach > of the "average" American. First of all, it was over a month's pay for the > average American, it was equivalent to six months' groceries for a family of > four, and you could get a refrigerator or a washer, neither of which were > routine discretionary expenditures for the "average" American of that time. > That was during and immediately after the Korean war, when a 4-bedroom house > on a 1/4-acre lot cost $4600. That same house, now, in California would > cost you $4600 a month to rent. People's attitudes about what's important > enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. Don't you mean YOUR attitudes, Richard? Get this through your thick skull: YOU do NOT represent the mass thought process of humans. Time and again you insist on applying your OWN personal values and opinions upon the rest of the world when you make an assertion, and fail to realize there are 6 billion people out there with ideas differing from your own. > $300 was not an expenditure an "average" American would consider lightly in > 1952. That was the year I came to this country. There was an election > between Adlai E. Stevenson (Democrat) and Dwight D. Eisenhower (Republican). > It was BEFORE the first test of a hydrogen bomb. Sure, but the point is that it could CONCEIVABLY have been afforded by anyone who wished to save their money for 6 months so they could collect the parts together to build one. Just because YOU would not have chosen to build one does not mean everyone else in the world would have made that same choice. Everyone on the planet does not share your values, contrary to your belief and opinion. I know if I were alive back then, and I had the same excitement for computers that I do today, and an opportunity to build my own computer came up for 1/10th of my yearly salary, I sure as hell would have saved the money to build one. 1/10th of the average American's yearly salary is about $3,000 these days (thereabouts) and I know plenty of people who would save up that amount to buy a righteous computer with all the trimmings in our time. So $300 out of a $3,600 yearly salary (or whatever) back then is not only possible but very do-able. > People weren't crazy then as they are now . . . and all the loose nuts > hadn't yet learned to run to California. Whatever. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 23 00:35:37 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Bringing up a old Powersupply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990422222745.00a434b0@mcmanis.com> At 10:09 PM 4/22/99 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is this a good idea? [slow power up] I'm on the fence about it. On the one hand you will find out if you've got a short fairly harmlessly, on the other hand its going to have to withstand power eventually. > If so, how slowly is a good idea? So my uneducated suggestion is to apply a lower voltage to it and see if it sucks current (ie its shorted) and then if it isn't, give it full AC and start checking the outputs. >Also, in talking to a friend tonite he was suggesting I hook an O-Scope up >to the PS to check for "ripple". Is this necessary? YES. Especially under load. The thing that often fails in a PSU is the filter capacitors and weak ones will show up as ripple and ripple will render your machine inoperable. > I've got a scope, but > honestly do not have any idea how to use it, and haven't had time to learn. This measuremnet is trivial. Set the probe for "AC coupling" and connect ground to ground and then set your probe tip to the power rail. The display should jump and then settle down to a straight line at "0" (you can adjust this using the position adust knob when the coupling is set to "GND" or with the probe connected to ground. Now look at the trace and click the volts/div knob down until you either reach the end of its travel or you see a sinusoid on the display. Using the value given by the volts/div knob see how "tall" in divisions the signal is on the scope. Multiply that number of divisions by the knob setting and that will tell you how "big" the ripple is. It should be less than .1 volt. After you've made the measurement use a power resistor to load the supply a bit (ideally drawing half its rated power) and measure the ripple again. Again it should be less than .1volt. If it isn't then you've got some filter capacitors to replace. -_Chuck From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Apr 23 00:46:44 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990422224644.0105f5a0@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:41 PM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, James Willing wrote: >> On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Hans Franke wrote: >> >> > > A PROPOSAL: (for VCF III) >> > >> > >> > >> > Maybe we should fix that only systems within the 10 year rule can be classified. >> >> Dang! I knew I was forgetting something! >> >> 6) In order to be eligible, the unit must have entered production (or >> in the case of a construction article based unit, been published) prior to >> the introduction of the IBM "PC". (198?... dang, brain fade!) > >1981. August to be exact.... > >Anyway, hold your pants on! The rules for the exhibit are coming soon! Ok... I'll defer to "he that runs the thing"... B^} So, do you have a mark-sense reader? Or should I still plan to bring mine? (never quite ready to give up!) B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 23 04:22:19 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <001c01be8d45$72c62280$0100c0a8@fuj03> (edick@idcomm.com) References: <001c01be8d45$72c62280$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <19990423092219.28418.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The Apple-][ most certainly did come with built-in Video. That's just about > all that was built-in. Strange. Several of my friends bought them back in 1977, and they only got a computer with an RS170A-compatible (roughly) output on an RCA jack, which was intended for connection to a TV or monitor that was NOT supplied. My point was that the PDP-8/e with VT8-E that I had brought up earlier had every bit as "real" a video output as the later systems that Lawrence wants to designate as "first". > BTW, I just gave away one which had an APPLE brand > monitor with it. Sure, but there weren't any Apple brand monitors in 1977. Apple didn't even resell another brand of monitor at that time. I stand by my assertion that the PDP-8/e with VT8-E was a personal computer with raster graphics. It was designed for use by one person, and was inexpensive enough that a determined but not fabulously wealthy person could buy one. A few people did. The VT05 that Allison mentioned was a raster display terminal, but did not have graphics capabilities (even as an option). I've got one. I don't have a VT8-E; since I can't seem to find one, I'd at least like to get some prints and build one. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 23 04:29:15 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Bringing up a old Powersupply In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: Message-ID: <19990423092915.28449.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I've got access to a variable powersupply that will provide > 0-140 VAC. I can't help with your general question, but I do have a safety tip. If that power supply is a Variac or similar device, it is an autotransformer. This means that it does not have separate primary and secondary windings. So don't count on it to provide the electrical isolation that you expect from normal transformers. If you need to probe the line-voltage side of the power supply with an oscilliscope, for instance, make sure that you also use an isolation transformer on the input side of the Variac. I don't want to start yet another discussion on the supposed merits of floating scopes. An isolation transformer for the UUT is the correct way to do this. Of course, for this to work you must NOT plug the scope into the same isolation transformer as the UUT. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Apr 23 04:43:29 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <19990423092219.28418.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 23, 99 09:22:19 am Message-ID: <199904230943.CAA00978@saul5.u.washington.edu> Eric Smith wrote: > > The Apple-][ most certainly did come with built-in Video. That's just about > > all that was built-in. > Strange. Several of my friends bought them back in 1977, and they only > got a computer with an RS170A-compatible (roughly) output on an RCA jack, > which was intended for connection to a TV or monitor that was NOT supplied. > > My point was that the PDP-8/e with VT8-E that I had brought up earlier had > every bit as "real" a video output as the later systems that Lawrence wants > to designate as "first". Whose message are you replying to? Richard Erlacher's, or someone else's? Just making sure. You two seem to be confusing built-in video signal generation capabilities with a built-in video screen. The Apple has the signal capabilities. As you said, there was no monitor as part of the main unit (and Apple didn't aggressively put its name on external monitors, at least not before the //e). It sounds like the VT8E has the signal capabilities and the monitor. I'm not sure about that. Some computers, of course, have neither monitor nor signal generation (e.g., "card cage" machines like the S-100 machines, or machines with only a serial port for a terminal). And some OTOH have built-in monitors (e.g., the TRS-80 Model III, some HP machines, and the IBM 5100 -- all of which are from roughly the era of the Apple ][). Personally, I think that whether the monitor is physically attached or external is not very important. It's the presence/absense of the built-in monitor _controller_ that is the distinction worth making. And I am NOT going to make any specific statements about how that relates to the category of "personal computer". -- Derek From kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk Fri Apr 23 05:41:16 1999 From: kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk (KNIGHT G.A) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Computer History Pages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I found a rather interesting page that has links to different computer histories. Check it out at: http://www.internetworld.com/print/monthly/1997/02/origin.html -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide- http://welcome.to/aig "Shine on your star" From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 23 08:13:38 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: ePay Joke In-Reply-To: References: <199904222051.WAA07409@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199904231114.NAA08395@horus.mch.sni.de> > >I know, this is not the eBay list, but since I had to recover > >several minutes after reading this auction, I believe you all > >will like it ... > >SVI 328 (Atari Clone?) plus BONUS: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=94476309 > >Every time you think you hit the flor, someone was faster :)) > So what is it? Obviously it's not an Atari clone. Its's an Z80 based home/SOHO computer from the mid 80s. AFAIK an american development - nice made modular system (Reminds me always of an Sorcerer). When the MSX caravan tried to stard, they hoped on the bandwagon, calling themself a MSX system - althrough this was true for the software part of the design (BASIC and DOS), the Hardware was different - and back than Software was more hardewaredependant. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 23 08:25:26 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Ebay virus on the loose In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990422121811.03cb1e50@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <199904231126.NAA10160@horus.mch.sni.de> > >Forwarded without comment: > > http://www.tbtf.com/index.html > Just another reason not to run Javascript I guess. I only have it turned > on when I need it. Usually it's just used as an annoyance anyway. Besides > last page I ran into with Javascript crashed the browser (Netscape > 3.01/AIX) when I tried to use it, so I had to look at the document source > to get the link anyway. On the other side, Bookmarklets are so way way neat (and usefull), I don't want to live without. Thats why I did switch on Java Script again. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Fri Apr 23 06:37:49 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Collecting Computers: A Guide - the book. Message-ID: <199904231137.HAA06262@golden.net> Thank you. The first printing of A Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique is just about sold out. There is at least one copy of the book in every country of Europe, plus copies all over Austrialia, Canada, and the U.S. of A. A few copies are still available through the Vintage Computer Festival - visit the VCF web site and support Sellam's work. You know that both the computer and antique industries highly recommended the book and many collectors took the time to provide feedback such as "I now know more about myself through your book." Collecting computers is good fun and perhaps a good thing to do. Up the old computer! By the way, will someone please tell me what a pentium is? Yours in good faith. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Apr 23 06:49:39 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <002101be8d46$aa9262e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: >The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach >of the "average" American. First of all, it was over a month's pay for the >average American, it was equivalent to six months' groceries for a family of It wasn't a money issue, they were functionally worthless to all but a handfull of people due to lack of game software. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Apr 23 07:24:47 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <001601be8d29$7fa8d860$0100c0a8@fuj03> from Richard Erlacher at "Apr 22, 1999 7:34:57 pm" Message-ID: <199904231224.IAA00557@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > They (DEC) wouldn't sell > directly to the government because that required they let government > auditors look at their books. There was too much risk that the word would > leak out that their profit margins on their mini's were pretty generous. > That would have led to competition, which they really never enjoyed. > > > Dick This is unadulterated #@$&*() bull. And revisionist history with an agenda sucks. I take serious offence to this. DEC sold directly to the government. They (the gov't) was their second largest customer when I was there (behind the good old AT&T Ma Bell folks). I was a dedicated Field service type at Fort Monmouth. I also did time as a government contractor on projects. What are you basing this opinion on. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 23 07:39:09 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <002101be8d46$aa9262e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: > of the "average" American. First of all, it was over a month's pay for the > average American, it was equivalent to six months' groceries for a family of > four, and you could get a refrigerator or a washer, neither of which were > routine discretionary expenditures for the "average" American of that time. > That was during and immediately after the Korean war, when a 4-bedroom house > on a 1/4-acre lot cost $4600. That same house, now, in California would > cost you $4600 a month to rent. People's attitudes about what's important > enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. The nubers you quote are not universal or reflected everywhere in the US. On LI NY, 1960: My father made roughly 100$ take home. My mother made 54$ as nurses aid. My parent house cost $18,000 in 1957 (1/3 acre) Neither car was never than three years old. A washer was 110$ A dryer (electric) was 122$ Bazooka gum was 1 cent a piece Weeks food from the A&P for 5 was ~33$ The PDP-1 was considered groundbreaking for it's low price of $120,000. By 1964 a 19 inch portable black and white TV was 120$ and still used tubes. In 1971 A new chevy pickup was 2700$ A used 8i system could be had for 2-3000 with peripherals(disks) A new Cincinatti Milichron CM2000 basic machine was $2000. in short use real numbers. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 23 07:47:27 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <199904230943.CAA00978@saul5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: > Some computers, of course, have neither monitor nor signal generation (e.g., > "card cage" machines like the S-100 machines, or machines with only a serial > port for a terminal). And some OTOH have built-in monitors (e.g., the > TRS-80 Model III, some HP machines, and the IBM 5100 -- all of which are > from roughly the era of the Apple ][). There were not less than 8 video cards for S100 by 1977, several offered what was considerd higest resolution that then current monitors could display in color. System that supplied RS170 video include the PT SOL and the POLY-88 which are older than the trs80. allsion From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 23 07:51:21 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > It wasn't a money issue, they were functionally worthless to all but a > handfull of people due to lack of game software. Ah therein lies the standard. Lunar lander was not good software and nothing short being able to run simcity or Doom qualifies as a computer worthy of the moniker "personal computer"/ This is crap! Allison From cbajpai at mediaone.net Fri Apr 23 07:52:30 1999 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301be8d88$26f965e0$0100a8c0@ne.mediaone.net> I've got a couple of Commodore PETs that need to be cleaned up. I'd like to restore them to like new condition...the only problem is some markings on the systems. Any ideas on how to remove from the metal case (with damaging the painted surface underneath) - Spray paint (numbers) - Permanent magic marker (more numbers) Thanks, Chandra From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 23 07:56:34 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <199904231224.IAA00557@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: > > They (DEC) wouldn't sell > > directly to the government because that required they let government > > auditors look at their books. There was too much risk that the word would > > leak out that their profit margins on their mini's were pretty generous. > > That would have led to competition, which they really never enjoyed. > > > > > > Dick > > > This is unadulterated #@$&*() bull. > And revisionist history with an agenda sucks. > > I take serious offence to this. DEC sold directly to the government. > They (the gov't) was their second largest customer when I was there > (behind the good old AT&T Ma Bell folks). I was a dedicated Field > service type at Fort Monmouth. I also did time as a government > contractor on projects. > > What are you basing this opinion on. > > Bill First DEC was a public corperation... if you know anthing that counters your claim. Now so happens my other half was a manager of the corperate and government billing unit. I KNOW what the discloseures were! If anything IBM had a presence for a long time so the govenment was for the most part locked in. Offensive is the least I can say about that statement. Allison (formerly Senior Engineer, CSSE Printing Systems (DEC MLO, PKO, LKG, DSG, OGO) From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 23 10:56:05 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Collecting Computers: A Guide - the book. In-Reply-To: <199904231137.HAA06262@golden.net> Message-ID: <199904231357.PAA29880@horus.mch.sni.de> > There is at least one copy of the book in every country of Europe, _every_ country ? Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 23 11:18:28 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases In-Reply-To: <000301be8d88$26f965e0$0100a8c0@ne.mediaone.net> References: Message-ID: <199904231419.QAA02486@horus.mch.sni.de> > I've got a couple of Commodore PETs that need to be cleaned up. > I'd like to restore them to like new condition...the only problem > is some markings on the systems. > Any ideas on how to remove from the metal case (with damaging the > painted surface underneath) > - Spray paint (numbers) > - Permanent magic marker (more numbers) Depending on the Modell - if it's one of the SK/LP/HP CBMs, I recomend a ... ups, now I got problems since I don't know exact american namings and brands - I would recomend ATA (thats a brandname, but also used generic for most brands of not aggressive Scheuerpulver (scpuring agent (?)) with an aprobiate hard sponge (non metall), since the 'rough' surface accepts microscratches, and the coulour used is thick enough to allow this procedure - don't use any kind of sandpaper. For Metall case PET/CBMs with the rough surface the same method might be usefull, but you have to prpare the Scheuer- pulver with water in a seperate place, to avoide the first, hard contact - also add some sadditional soup and use a soft sponge with less pessure - you might need to polish it later on with polish materials for cars. For the smooth surface (early) models, I recomend only soap and a sponge - and a real lot of rubbing. Also some helpers as used for car paint refurbishing are usefull. All this will only work to remove non aggressive markers. If the markers have interacted deeply with the paint, and or if spray paint is used, you have to do an repaint job. take a medium to fine Schmirgelpapier and remove the unwanted paint, until is is completly gone - try to take of material all over at the same rate. if done well it might be enough original paint still on the surface that you only need to add a new gloss-paint layer - if not, considere to unpaint whole case and give it to a car painting company for the job to do it (including new paint of course. The main problem is that you have to prepare all parts the same way, since it would look terrible if only one side of the pet is 'redone' Gruss H. (There has been an Idea of a workshop on Computer cleaning vor VCF 3.0 - Sallam ?) -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 23 11:18:28 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: References: <002101be8d46$aa9262e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <199904231419.QAA02497@horus.mch.sni.de> > >The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach > >of the "average" American. First of all, it was over a month's pay for the > >average American, it was equivalent to six months' groceries for a family of > It wasn't a money issue, they were functionally worthless to all but a > handfull of people due to lack of game software. Lack of game software ? THEY HAD SWITCHES ! :)) H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 23 11:29:14 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: References: <002101be8d46$aa9262e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <199904231430.QAA03806@horus.mch.sni.de> > > The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach > > of the "average" American. First of all, it was over a month's pay for the > > average American, it was equivalent to six months' groceries for a family of > > four, and you could get a refrigerator or a washer, neither of which were > > routine discretionary expenditures for the "average" American of that time. > > That was during and immediately after the Korean war, when a 4-bedroom house > > on a 1/4-acre lot cost $4600. That same house, now, in California would > > cost you $4600 a month to rent. People's attitudes about what's important > > enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. > Don't you mean YOUR attitudes, Richard? Get this through your thick > skull: YOU do NOT represent the mass thought process of humans. Time and > again you insist on applying your OWN personal values and opinions upon > the rest of the world when you make an assertion, and fail to realize > there are 6 billion people out there with ideas differing from your own. Hey, Sallam, don't forget to considere the possibility that these 5 to 6 Billions (maybe minus 0.2 Billions US citicens) might have the same opinions as Dick - just as a possibility. > > $300 was not an expenditure an "average" American would consider lightly in > > 1952. That was the year I came to this country. There was an election > > between Adlai E. Stevenson (Democrat) and Dwight D. Eisenhower (Republican). > > It was BEFORE the first test of a hydrogen bomb. > Sure, but the point is that it could CONCEIVABLY have been afforded by > anyone who wished to save their money for 6 months so they could collect > the parts together to build one. Just because YOU would not have chosen > to build one does not mean everyone else in the world would have made that > same choice. Everyone on the planet does not share your values, contrary > to your belief and opinion. In fact, both of you are part right. I can only add my personal experiance, where I put out almost 8 times of my monthly payment (as First Private) to getn an naked Apple ][ (Even with my later, first civilian Job it would have been almost 2.5 wages), and I had to take a bank loan - but I did it - I _wanted_ a _big_ computer (before that I had a selfbuild 2650 system and a KIM) - So, a 500 USD system might have been possible even in the 50s - if realy intersted - but 500 USD was _way_ to low. > 1/10th of the average American's yearly salary is about $3,000 these days > (thereabouts) and I know plenty of people who would save up that amount to > buy a righteous computer with all the trimmings in our time. So $300 out > of a $3,600 yearly salary (or whatever) back then is not only possible but > very do-able. There are still differences Sallam - not only numerical - the amount of free usable money is higher, not only in numbers than back then (see also Alisons calculation) > > People weren't crazy then as they are now . . . and all the loose nuts > > hadn't yet learned to run to California. > Whatever. Must be true, Now I'm able to run for California (and I'll do it again for VCF3.0 :). Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 23 10:31:22 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s Message-ID: <001801be8d9e$6b854d80$0100c0a8@fuj03> Yes, you're right, but the "video" is the stuff that comes out of the RS170A-compatible, and if you mean the "A" standard, then VERY roughly, indeed. It was more common to see the Apple-][ with a non-Apple monitor for a number of reasons. First, it's likely the monitor was an Apple afterthought. Second, what I remember seeing most was a small (often a Sanyo 9") monitor sitting atop the Apple computer, next to two floppy drives one atop the other. In any case the Apple monitor was too big for that application and it made the Apple not unlike the TRS-80, in that it consisted of too many pieces and took up too much desktop. Nevertheless, monitor or none, the VIDEO was "in there." Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 3:31 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s >> The Apple-][ most certainly did come with built-in Video. That's just about >> all that was built-in. > >Strange. Several of my friends bought them back in 1977, and they only >got a computer with an RS170A-compatible (roughly) output on an RCA jack, >which was intended for connection to a TV or monitor that was NOT supplied. > >My point was that the PDP-8/e with VT8-E that I had brought up earlier had >every bit as "real" a video output as the later systems that Lawrence wants >to designate as "first". > >> BTW, I just gave away one which had an APPLE brand >> monitor with it. > >Sure, but there weren't any Apple brand monitors in 1977. Apple didn't >even resell another brand of monitor at that time. > >I stand by my assertion that the PDP-8/e with VT8-E was a personal computer >with raster graphics. It was designed for use by one person, and was >inexpensive enough that a determined but not fabulously wealthy person could >buy one. A few people did. > >The VT05 that Allison mentioned was a raster display terminal, but did not >have graphics capabilities (even as an option). I've got one. I don't have >a VT8-E; since I can't seem to find one, I'd at least like to get some prints >and build one. From bruce.a.lane at boeing.com Fri Apr 23 11:01:10 1999 From: bruce.a.lane at boeing.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: VAXBar Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990423090110.00900890@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> Ok... this one has to be seen to be believed, and that's all I'm going to say about it. ;-) http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~vance/www/vaxbar.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- NOTE: The views expressed are mine alone, and do NOT necessarily represent the views of the Boeing Company, its management or employees. Bruce Lane, Alpha Geek and Laptop Fixer, Boeing Aircraft & Missiles, Operations, Kent Space Center West, 18-04.2 / G1 -- M/S 8K-45 (253) 773-8576laneb@bcstec.ca.boeing.com "...One harried engineering tech masquerading as a computer support guy..." From elvey at hal.com Fri Apr 23 11:06:28 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Bringing up a old Powersupply In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990422222745.00a434b0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <199904231606.JAA18144@civic.hal.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > At 10:09 PM 4/22/99 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Is this a good idea? [slow power up] > > I'm on the fence about it. On the one hand you will find out if you've got > a short fairly harmlessly, on the other hand its going to have to withstand > power eventually. > > > If so, how slowly is a good idea? > Hi There are a couple of issues here. When electrolitics aren't used for a long period of time,they need to be reformed. This is an electro-chemical action. The way to do that is to bring the voltage up slowly. Now for the bad part. First many pieces of solid state electronics will draw higher current until the voltage properly biases things off. This is normally not a problem since the power supply usually comes up fast. Even worse, if the supply is a switcher and not a linear supply, bringing the AC voltage up slowly will most likely blow the supply. Many older switchers don't have brown out protection. Because of the way they work, the run the switching part hard enough to get the full output voltage and current. If the input voltage is low, the input switcher will draw more current until it meets the power requirements of the output. Since the input switching transistor(s) main limit is how much current goes through them, they will often blow out. If you fear the electrolitics are vary old, disconnect one lead and form them from a bench supply and a current limiting resistor. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 23 11:18:29 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC") In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990422224644.0105f5a0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: > So, do you have a mark-sense reader? Or should I still plan to bring mine? > (never quite ready to give up!) B^} A good, practical way to do it. Mark-sense cards/readers are commonly used in colleges for multiple guess tests. But in line with the "Vintage" nature, I think that you should use "porta-punch" IBM cards! You could maybe borrow/rent one of the manual punches that is commonly used in elections. 'course then you also need a card reader, . . . Remind me if/when you get by my office to look for my IBM folding voting booth. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 23 11:26:23 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > It wasn't a money issue, they were functionally worthless to all but a > > handfull of people due to lack of game software. > Ah therein lies the standard. Lunar lander was not good software and > nothing short being able to run simcity or Doom qualifies as a computer > worthy of the moniker "personal computer"/ > This is crap! Ah, but therein lies the key issue of subjectivity. ALMOST everyone has "standards of usability", and considers that the "unusable" predecessors "don't count" towards being "FIRST". For some it's PRICE; for some it's internal characteristics; but for MOST, it's the ability to run the software that that user thinks is significant. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 23 11:31:47 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases In-Reply-To: <199904231419.QAA02486@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: If the surface is smooth, try automobile "Rubbing Compound" From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 23 11:38:17 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <002a01be8da7$c4bf9fa0$0100c0a8@fuj03> No, Sam, those were not necessarily MY attitudes. I, after all, was only 6 years old during most of 1952. However, I'd submit that my statement is more or less correct, inasmuch as most Americans had no idea what a digital computer was in 1952. My grandfather worked for one of New York's large banks back then, and HE was a computer. He spent his time at work with those VERY tall multiple-entry ledgers you see in the old-time movies, adding up the columns in his head and recording the sum in india ink just as people had done it a century before. That was about 50x as quick and generally as accurate as the at that time not so common mechanical calculators which some time later filled accounting departments throughout the world. Guys like my grandpa didn't cost as much as ENIAC, or BISMAC, or whatever was the model of the day, and they got the work done. That's what the average American thought of when you asked him about a computer, though most didn't really even recognize the word. In 1954-55 a friend of my parents bought an airplane for $300. He also liked those British sports cars, which traded, 2nd-hand for about $300 in the late '50's, though they were not that "reasonable" by the time I wanted one (goodness only knows why I wanted it). Back to the attitudes . . . I certainly hope that you don't purport YOUR attitudes to be typical. I know mine aren't. What brings balance to a discussion is the presentation of perceptions. Two people can sit in the same room observing the same event and, afterward, discuss their recollection as though they were in different places. In this case, you're presuming to know what was the case in an era you could only have experienced semantically, while I experienced it "really" though through the perceptions of a child. I had the exposure to some of the same semantic influences as you, however, and I was able to integrate that with my recollections of those days to put things together in my mind, just as you do when thinking back to the '70's. That doesn't make ME right and YOU wrong, but it doesn't make YOU right and ME wrong either. You see, the larger discussion isn't about YOU or ME. One other point . . . I don't know how you can claim to know about what's on the mind of an "average" American. People who, ten years ago, were rabidly interested in computers, whether in work or in play, were not considered "average" in any sense. I'd say that the only way to get a reasonable "feel" for what an "average" person thinks must come from somewhere outside your circle of associates and mine. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 11:29 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach >> enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. > >Don't you mean YOUR attitudes, Richard? Get this through your thick >skull: YOU do NOT represent the mass thought process of humans. Time and >again you insist on applying your OWN personal values and opinions upon >the rest of the world when you make an assertion, and fail to realize >there are 6 billion people out there with ideas differing from your own. > >> $300 was not an expenditure an "average" American would consider lightly in >> 1952. That was the year I came to this country. There was an election >> between Adlai E. Stevenson (Democrat) and Dwight D. Eisenhower (Republican). >> It was BEFORE the first test of a hydrogen bomb. > >Sure, but the point is that it could CONCEIVABLY have been afforded by >anyone who wished to save their money for 6 months so they could collect >the parts together to build one. Just because YOU would not have chosen >to build one does not mean everyone else in the world would have made that >same choice. Everyone on the planet does not share your values, contrary >to your belief and opinion. > >I know if I were alive back then, and I had the same excitement for >computers that I do today, and an opportunity to build my own computer >came up for 1/10th of my yearly salary, I sure as hell would have saved >the money to build one. > >1/10th of the average American's yearly salary is about $3,000 these days >(thereabouts) and I know plenty of people who would save up that amount to >buy a righteous computer with all the trimmings in our time. So $300 out >of a $3,600 yearly salary (or whatever) back then is not only possible but >very do-able. > >> People weren't crazy then as they are now . . . and all the loose nuts >> hadn't yet learned to run to California. > >Whatever. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 23 11:46:07 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > "standards of usability", and considers that the "unusable" predecessors > "don't count" towards being "FIRST". For some it's PRICE; for some it's > internal characteristics; but for MOST, it's the ability to run the > software that that user thinks is significant. I'd say it's fair to differentiate those that had to be toggled to life or some such but there were already many systems that were turnkey and ran significant software without investing in an engineering degree. However in the age of retro-revisionism and the advent of the dumbing down of the populace I would then contend the machine that wipes ones fanny is still wanting. While games are a real challenge and make their authors big bucks Its relevence to a word processor or spread sheet (two killer apps) is barely there. I would contend that the apple and cpm machine that could run visicalc (Dbase, Multiplan and so on) are the real contenders for the PC revolution. Somewhere in all this pony manure is the pony I always wanted. In the mean time I keep digging.. ;) Allison From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Fri Apr 23 11:48:40 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases In-Reply-To: <199904231419.QAA02486@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: I use CitriSolv, a fairly common citrus-based solvent. It's not so nasty to your skin or lungs, and treats most hard plastics and painted surfaces gentle enough. It's the only thing that takes the Thrift Stores' sharpie graffitti off of this stuff... Hope that helps, Aaron From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 23 11:53:08 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <003101be8da9$c404f040$0100c0a8@fuj03> This "#@$&*() bull," was part of the party line presented by a DEC sales team at a presentation I attended about fifteen years ago, on behalf of one of the "systems integration contractors" their policies were designed to support. The presenters routinely referred to their clever position in the government market in the terms I used. This was VERY consistent with the way other things appeared at that time. When I worked in other government-related environments, I also noted that, while Digital provided field service, they were not the vendor who provided the original hardware. I was persuaded by this and numerous other statements which had been made to the same effect, by others who worked with the DEC line. I always thought of this as a clever arrangement to ensure that the government got the pitch from their contractors as well as from DEC, and to ensure a sound common basis for DEC to interact with the various contractors with no risk to their business. Because DEC didn't provide the services that these contractors provided, they could be assured of lots of business with the gov because when a job went out for bids, nobody would base their bid on Honeywell or IBM because they provided services at no charge which DEC didn't, and therefore, although perhaps half a dozen entities would bid on a given job, they all would propose DEC equipment. This was at least in part because the same entities who would submit proposals also had people on the inside who wrote the specifications. This worked well for the gov as well as for their contractors. It also worked well for DEC. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 6:35 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >> They (DEC) wouldn't sell >> directly to the government because that required they let government >> auditors look at their books. There was too much risk that the word would >> leak out that their profit margins on their mini's were pretty generous. >> That would have led to competition, which they really never enjoyed. >> >> >> Dick > > >This is unadulterated #@$&*() bull. >And revisionist history with an agenda sucks. > >I take serious offence to this. DEC sold directly to the government. >They (the gov't) was their second largest customer when I was there >(behind the good old AT&T Ma Bell folks). I was a dedicated Field >service type at Fort Monmouth. I also did time as a government >contractor on projects. > >What are you basing this opinion on. > >Bill > >--- > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, > The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From dlw at trailingedge.com Fri Apr 23 12:03:12 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: (Fwd) Model 6000 Help Needed Message-ID: <199904231658.LAA11260@trailingedge.com> I know there are some people here who have Model 16/6000s on the list. Can any of you help this guy out? You can email him directly. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Caleb Rawstron I am looking for Model 6000 equipment to get my ailing system up and running again. I need a complete 35 meg, MFM hard drive with power supply and data board. If you have one or know anyone who does I would really be interested in talking turkey or trade for other equipment. Desperate in California, Caleb A. Rawstron crawstrn@astreet.com or crawstrn@hotmail.com ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Apr 23 12:13:35 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > So, do you have a mark-sense reader? Or should I still plan to bring mine? > > (never quite ready to give up!) B^} > > A good, practical way to do it. Mark-sense cards/readers are commonly > used in colleges for multiple guess tests. ...and they're more than 10 years old... B^} > But in line with the "Vintage" nature, I think that you should use > "porta-punch" IBM cards! You could maybe borrow/rent one of the manual > punches that is commonly used in elections. 'course then you also need a > card reader, . . . I've got card readers... But they are a LOT heavier than my mark-sense readers. > Remind me if/when you get by my office to look for my IBM folding voting > booth. Who, me? -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Apr 23 12:18:42 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <003101be8da9$c404f040$0100c0a8@fuj03> from Richard Erlacher at "Apr 23, 1999 10:53: 8 am" Message-ID: <199904231718.NAA01064@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > This "#@$&*() bull," was part of the party line presented by a DEC sales > team at a presentation I attended about fifteen years ago, on behalf of one > of the "systems integration contractors" their policies were designed to > support. The presenters routinely referred to their clever position in the > government market in the terms I used. Considering I worked at DEC in 81-86 and we sold DIRECT to Fort Monmouth I think that statement was misleading. DEC sold stuff via OEM's who often did system integration with NON-DEC hardware and software and packaged systems with specialized requirements. I remember a Martin Marietta special 11/70 in tempest cabinets with special requirements -- but that was not common. A large number of the DEC stuff was sold through government contractors because they could get machines under blanket agreements without some of the government procurement restrictions and approvals. DEC got sued (and settled with the govt) because of the following issue: GSA got higher pricing from DEC than Ma Bell on their Vax orders. GSA also required installation, insurance, and warranty differences in their negotiations for government pricing... I know -- I was dedicated as an installation specialist in 81 when both Bell Labs and Fort Monmouth were buying large amounts of Vax and DEC stuff. The GSA claimed the DEC prices for AT&T were lower than GSA prices which is not allowed. DEC claimed they weren't for the same configuration and services (which was true). Ma Bell paid for insurance as a line item and either installed the machines themselves and self insured or did away with insurance. (The govt didn't accept FOB coverage -- you sue the trucking company for damages. DEC had to process any warranty and go against the delivery company. You should see what an 11/780 looks like after it's been dropped off a loading dock. Card cages were smashed. H7000 power supplies where the card cages were. Doors bent in half. That machine was repaired and was still running 4 or 5 years ago.) DEC settled rather than fight the government in court on this one. Bill From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Apr 23 12:21:02 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: VAXBar In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990423090110.00900890@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> from Bruce Lane at "Apr 23, 1999 9: 1:10 am" Message-ID: <199904231721.NAA01116@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > Ok... this one has to be seen to be believed, and that's all I'm going to > say about it. ;-) > > http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~vance/www/vaxbar.html It's on my bookmarks, I'd build one if I had a truck to get an 11/780 carcass. I'd also install my Vaxstation 3100 in it so it would still run VAX/VMS. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 23 14:25:20 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC") In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990422224644.0105f5a0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <199904231726.TAA15421@horus.mch.sni.de> Date sent: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC") Originally to: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > So, do you have a mark-sense reader? Or should I still plan to bring mine? > > (never quite ready to give up!) B^} > > A good, practical way to do it. Mark-sense cards/readers are commonly > used in colleges for multiple guess tests. > But in line with the "Vintage" nature, Arn't these readers already classics ? I remember them from the early 70s, when they tried this system over here (it went soon out of use) at a local high school (Realschule). Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From elvey at hal.com Fri Apr 23 12:28:10 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: 1702 EPROM question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990422203558.0acf24bc@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199904231728.KAA18164@civic.hal.com> Joe wrote: > I scrounged around a found a stock of Intel 1702 EPROMs today. I know some > of you have been looking for these. What are they worth? > > Joe Hi Joe I resently bought some at a local surplus. For the gray ceramic ones I payed $1.95 each. For the gold lead white ceramic Intels, I payed $4.95 each. That should give you a range. Dwight From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 23 12:38:23 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases Message-ID: <003c01be8db0$16986840$0100c0a8@fuj03> Try benzene (mine came from an art-supply house under the trade name "BESTINE" which is used for removing tape residue.) This may not work on all paints and markers, but it surely does a nice job on the tape and other adhesives used to attach property tags and the like. I've removed some "magic-marker" from plastic cases, but marker and paing sometimes interact with the plastic, in which case you may have a more serious problem. It's just cosmetic, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Chandra Bajpai To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 7:05 AM Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases > >I've got a couple of Commodore PETs that need to be cleaned up. >I'd like to restore them to like new condition...the only problem >is some markings on the systems. > >Any ideas on how to remove from the metal case (with damaging the >painted surface underneath) > - Spray paint (numbers) > - Permanent magic marker (more numbers) > >Thanks, >Chandra > > From at258 at osfn.org Fri Apr 23 12:40:53 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases In-Reply-To: <199904231419.QAA02486@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: I've seen spary brake cleaner used to remove grafitti marks, but I don't know if it would be compatible with the paint. It didn't seem to harm Imron. On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > > I've got a couple of Commodore PETs that need to be cleaned up. > > I'd like to restore them to like new condition...the only problem > > is some markings on the systems. > > > Any ideas on how to remove from the metal case (with damaging the > > painted surface underneath) > > - Spray paint (numbers) > > - Permanent magic marker (more numbers) > > Depending on the Modell - if it's one of the SK/LP/HP CBMs, > I recomend a ... ups, now I got problems since I don't know > exact american namings and brands - I would recomend ATA > (thats a brandname, but also used generic for most brands > of not aggressive Scheuerpulver (scpuring agent (?)) with > an aprobiate hard sponge (non metall), since the 'rough' > surface accepts microscratches, and the coulour used is > thick enough to allow this procedure - don't use any kind > of sandpaper. > > For Metall case PET/CBMs with the rough surface the same > method might be usefull, but you have to prpare the Scheuer- > pulver with water in a seperate place, to avoide the first, > hard contact - also add some sadditional soup and use a soft > sponge with less pessure - you might need to polish it later > on with polish materials for cars. > > For the smooth surface (early) models, I recomend only soap > and a sponge - and a real lot of rubbing. Also some helpers > as used for car paint refurbishing are usefull. > > All this will only work to remove non aggressive markers. > If the markers have interacted deeply with the paint, and > or if spray paint is used, you have to do an repaint job. > take a medium to fine Schmirgelpapier and remove the unwanted > paint, until is is completly gone - try to take of material > all over at the same rate. if done well it might be enough > original paint still on the surface that you only need to > add a new gloss-paint layer - if not, considere to unpaint > whole case and give it to a car painting company for the > job to do it (including new paint of course. > > The main problem is that you have to prepare all parts the > same way, since it would look terrible if only one side of > the pet is 'redone' > > Gruss > H. > (There has been an Idea of a workshop on Computer cleaning > vor VCF 3.0 - Sallam ?) > > -- > Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ > Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ > Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 23 12:45:05 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <004301be8db1$05f93ae0$0100c0a8@fuj03> You know, there must have been another company using the Digital name that put on those pitches my colleagues and I had to attend, which was not publicly traded, because that was part of the same spiel, i.e. "that's why we're not public . . ." I'm sure I didn't dream that, because my boss was usually present and I didn't really like what I was hearing. Is this possible? I don't believe a public corporation can have non-public subsidiaries. Can it? Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 7:07 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s > >> > They (DEC) wouldn't sell >> > directly to the government because that required they let government >> > auditors look at their books. There was too much risk that the word would >> > leak out that their profit margins on their mini's were pretty generous. >> > That would have led to competition, which they really never enjoyed. >> > >> > >> > Dick >> >> >> This is unadulterated #@$&*() bull. >> And revisionist history with an agenda sucks. >> >> I take serious offence to this. DEC sold directly to the government. >> They (the gov't) was their second largest customer when I was there >> (behind the good old AT&T Ma Bell folks). I was a dedicated Field >> service type at Fort Monmouth. I also did time as a government >> contractor on projects. >> >> What are you basing this opinion on. >> >> Bill > >First DEC was a public corperation... if you know anthing that counters >your claim. > >Now so happens my other half was a manager of the corperate and government >billing unit. I KNOW what the discloseures were! If anything IBM had a >presence for a long time so the govenment was for the most part locked in. > >Offensive is the least I can say about that statement. > >Allison >(formerly Senior Engineer, CSSE Printing Systems (DEC MLO, PKO, LKG, DSG, >OGO) > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 23 12:47:40 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:31 2005 Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases In-Reply-To: <003c01be8db0$16986840$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: For smooth surfaces, and very recently applied permanent magic marker, there's a well known trick among teachers for how to remove the permanent magic marker that some newbie used on the dry-erase marker boards: just go over the permanent magic marker with the dry-erase one! On whiteboards, the dry-erase "ink" will dissolve and lift off the "permanent ink". From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 23 12:48:58 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases Message-ID: <004a01be8db1$90b8a3a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> A really fine-grit scouring powder like "Bon-Ami" might be what Hans wants to recommend. Those really tough plastic scouring sponges would be appropriate in most cases. You've got to be sure you don't scratch the surface, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 8:33 AM Subject: Re: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases > >> I've got a couple of Commodore PETs that need to be cleaned up. >> I'd like to restore them to like new condition...the only problem >> is some markings on the systems. > >> Any ideas on how to remove from the metal case (with damaging the >> painted surface underneath) >> - Spray paint (numbers) >> - Permanent magic marker (more numbers) > >Depending on the Modell - if it's one of the SK/LP/HP CBMs, >I recomend a ... ups, now I got problems since I don't know >exact american namings and brands - I would recomend ATA >(thats a brandname, but also used generic for most brands >of not aggressive Scheuerpulver (scpuring agent (?)) with >an aprobiate hard sponge (non metall), since the 'rough' >surface accepts microscratches, and the coulour used is >thick enough to allow this procedure - don't use any kind >of sandpaper. > >For Metall case PET/CBMs with the rough surface the same >method might be usefull, but you have to prpare the Scheuer- >pulver with water in a seperate place, to avoide the first, >hard contact - also add some sadditional soup and use a soft >sponge with less pessure - you might need to polish it later >on with polish materials for cars. > >For the smooth surface (early) models, I recomend only soap >and a sponge - and a real lot of rubbing. Also some helpers >as used for car paint refurbishing are usefull. > >All this will only work to remove non aggressive markers. >If the markers have interacted deeply with the paint, and >or if spray paint is used, you have to do an repaint job. >take a medium to fine Schmirgelpapier and remove the unwanted >paint, until is is completly gone - try to take of material >all over at the same rate. if done well it might be enough >original paint still on the surface that you only need to >add a new gloss-paint layer - if not, considere to unpaint >whole case and give it to a car painting company for the >job to do it (including new paint of course. > >The main problem is that you have to prepare all parts the >same way, since it would look terrible if only one side of >the pet is 'redone' > >Gruss >H. >(There has been an Idea of a workshop on Computer cleaning >vor VCF 3.0 - Sallam ?) > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK From at258 at osfn.org Fri Apr 23 12:49:03 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How about the white Polishing compound? The rubbing compound can be a bit rough. Though maybe you'd need to use both together. On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > If the surface is smooth, try automobile "Rubbing Compound" > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 23 12:53:06 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <004f01be8db2$247fc140$0100c0a8@fuj03> Well Hans, there's this saying, a derogatory one directed at California, but not totally without foundation that "Whenever there's a tremor, all the loose nuts roll to California." Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 8:42 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >> > The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach >> > hadn't yet learned to run to California. > >> Whatever. > >Must be true, Now I'm able to run for California >(and I'll do it again for VCF3.0 :). > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 23 12:56:44 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases Message-ID: <006001be8db2$a6dc40a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Excellent suggestion! After you finish, try applying a coat of "Armor-All." Though that's another automotive product, it puts a coat of wax on the case so other forms of grime can be wiped off, and it gives the case a "new" feel. That all-too-common stain and stink from tobacco smoke, by the way, comes out easily with "409" cleanser. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 11:01 AM Subject: Re: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases > >I use CitriSolv, a fairly common citrus-based solvent. It's not so nasty >to your skin or lungs, and treats most hard plastics and painted surfaces >gentle enough. It's the only thing that takes the Thrift Stores' sharpie >graffitti off of this stuff... > >Hope that helps, > >Aaron > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 23 13:19:35 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases In-Reply-To: <000301be8d88$26f965e0$0100a8c0@ne.mediaone.net> References: Message-ID: >I've got a couple of Commodore PETs that need to be cleaned up. >I'd like to restore them to like new condition...the only problem >is some markings on the systems. > >Any ideas on how to remove from the metal case (with damaging the >painted surface underneath) > - Spray paint (numbers) > - Permanent magic marker (more numbers) > >Thanks, >Chandra Hmmm, the paint is a bit difficult, but for the "Permanent" magic marker mess, I've found that Rubbing Alchol works wonders. It's the same stuff used in alchol lamps. You can buy it in a large container, and it might even work for the spray paint. The problem with the spray paint will be removing it, but not the painted surface underneath. Good luck on that. You might try some 'Kleen-Klean' (I think that's the name), it used to be available at home building supply stores in the US, but I've not looked for any for years so am not sure if it still is. The key word is that no matter what you try, try it on a small area, preferably out of sight! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Apr 23 13:06:29 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> >> It wasn't a money issue, they were functionally worthless to all but a >> handfull of people due to lack of game software. > > >Ah therein lies the standard. Lunar lander was not good software and >nothing short being able to run simcity or Doom qualifies as a computer >worthy of the moniker "personal computer"/ Visicalc sold more computers than the next five years of hardware and price improvements. Next to the power of the "software" your technological marvels are insignificant. D. Vader (roughly) From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Apr 23 13:09:26 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: Wang Stuff is avail. Message-ID: Right. This morning I got an e-mail release from the company giving me title free and clear to the Wang VS 7110 system and urging me to get it the hell out of there, pronto. SO: is there any interest in this system, as previously described (yesterday) on the List? I will be happy to e-mail the details to you if you wish. I am probably not capable, emotionally, of actually scrapping the damn thing, as my motive in rescuing it is preservation... anybody out there want the system? There is no room whatsoever at my place to store it, save for outside in the elements, and it would deteriorate rather quickly, even if it is coming up on summer.. I can help with delivery within a reasonable radius of Southern California.... Anybody....? Cheerz John From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 23 13:11:15 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <004f01be8db2$247fc140$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: Now, now. Without a lot of loose nuts, silicon valley and the "personal computer revolution" might not have come off. "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George bernard Shaw Just wait. After the big one, and everything east of the San Andreas sinks into the Atlantic, . . . From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 23 13:18:25 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <004301be8db1$05f93ae0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > You know, there must have been another company using the Digital name that > put on those pitches my colleagues and I had to attend, which was not > publicly traded, because that was part of the same spiel, i.e. "that's why > we're not public . . ." I'm sure I didn't dream that, because my boss was > usually present and I didn't really like what I was hearing. Is this > possible? I don't believe a public corporation can have non-public > subsidiaries. Can it? DEC was a monolithic company, no subsidiaries, publicly traded since well before the 1980s. Now, thre are not less than three companies that were integrators and part suppliers that used DIGITAL as part of their first name. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 23 13:20:39 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were Message-ID: <006701be8db6$12d58520$0100c0a8@fuj03> I have to agree with you on this one. The business community lent some measure of legitimacy to the "pre-IBM-PC" systems by putting them on the desktop to do "useful" work. They didn't care so much about "Space Invaders" or some other game. Without Visicalc and Wordstar, the micromputers of yesteryear would have been nothing more than video toys. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 10:57 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were >> "standards of usability", and considers that the "unusable" predecessors >> "don't count" towards being "FIRST". For some it's PRICE; for some it's >> internal characteristics; but for MOST, it's the ability to run the >> software that that user thinks is significant. > >I'd say it's fair to differentiate those that had to be toggled to life or >some such but there were already many systems that were turnkey and ran >significant software without investing in an engineering degree. However >in the age of retro-revisionism and the advent of the dumbing down of the >populace I would then contend the machine that wipes ones fanny is still >wanting. While games are a real challenge and make their authors big >bucks Its relevence to a word processor or spread sheet (two killer apps) >is barely there. I would contend that the apple and cpm machine that >could run visicalc (Dbase, Multiplan and so on) are the real contenders >for the PC revolution. > >Somewhere in all this pony manure is the pony I always wanted. In the >mean time I keep digging.. ;) > > >Allison > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 23 13:21:24 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <006801be8db6$18a23340$0100c0a8@fuj03> You're right, the numbers are not universal. It's hard to find numbers that are, BUT, in 1952, people didn't have electric dryers, and washing machines had wringers attached, as well as rollers on the bottom because housewives would roll them out the walk in back of the house to where the clothes line was located so they could hang their clothes and linens, the latter having been wrung before being hung on the line. In '52, as men were returning from the Korean war, the economy was still shuddering from the effect of the Korean war so soon in the wake of WWII. I'm not an economist, and even they probably can't explain exactly what was going on, but in the early '50's a phone call, a soft drink, a Saturday movie, and bus fare typically cost a nickel (that's 5-cents for those not accustomed to our monetary units.) in the midwestern US. In early '52, I lived in NYC, having just immigrated from Germany, and later (June '52) in Oklahoma City. In '55, we moved to Denver, where things really didn't seem too different, at least from what I heard from parents, etc. By then some people did have electric dryers, though. Electric ranges were more common as well. Housing was typically on 1/4-acre lots in the suburbs and the usual 1/6-1/5 acre lots in the city. If you lived where lots were 1/3 acre, you were probably well-off. When I lived in Oklahoma City, my nearest playmate was a physician's son. The guy who lived across the street from him was the chief of the state's highway patrol. By 1960, the culture had changed so much that people in those positions wouldn't dream of living in the same neighborhood with "working folks" like my parents. What I'm getting at here, is that things were VERY different by 1960, than they had been seven or eight years before. If you were raised after '60, the world would have looked quite different than it did in the early '50's. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 6:51 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >> of the "average" American. First of all, it was over a month's pay for the >> average American, it was equivalent to six months' groceries for a family of >> four, and you could get a refrigerator or a washer, neither of which were >> routine discretionary expenditures for the "average" American of that time. >> That was during and immediately after the Korean war, when a 4-bedroom house >> on a 1/4-acre lot cost $4600. That same house, now, in California would >> cost you $4600 a month to rent. People's attitudes about what's important >> enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. > >The nubers you quote are not universal or reflected everywhere in the >US. > >On LI NY, 1960: > > My father made roughly 100$ take home. > My mother made 54$ as nurses aid. > My parent house cost $18,000 in 1957 (1/3 acre) > Neither car was never than three years old. > A washer was 110$ > A dryer (electric) was 122$ > Bazooka gum was 1 cent a piece > Weeks food from the A&P for 5 was ~33$ > The PDP-1 was considered groundbreaking for it's low > price of $120,000. > >By 1964 > > a 19 inch portable black and white TV was 120$ and still used > tubes. > >In 1971 > > A new chevy pickup was 2700$ > A used 8i system could be had for 2-3000 with peripherals(disks) > A new Cincinatti Milichron CM2000 basic machine was $2000. > >in short use real numbers. > >Allison > From jlwest at tseinc.com Fri Apr 23 13:23:23 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: H214 board for pdp-8x? Message-ID: <021001be8db6$5fdc7400$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Can any pdp8'ers out there tell me if an H214 core board works in an 8E ? I thought the 8E used H212, but I'm not sure Thanks! Jay West From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 23 15:24:04 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases In-Reply-To: References: <000301be8d88$26f965e0$0100a8c0@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <199904231825.UAA17263@horus.mch.sni.de> > >I've got a couple of Commodore PETs that need to be cleaned up. > >I'd like to restore them to like new condition...the only problem > >is some markings on the systems. > >Any ideas on how to remove from the metal case (with damaging the > >painted surface underneath) > > - Spray paint (numbers) > > - Permanent magic marker (more numbers) > Hmmm, the paint is a bit difficult, but for the "Permanent" magic marker > mess, I've found that Rubbing Alchol works wonders. It's the same stuff > used in alchol lamps. You can buy it in a large container, and it might > even work for the spray paint. Achtung, be suspicient to any alcohol bearing product when it comes to Commo SK/LP/HP machines - there are paintings known that will be damaged from alcohol. At one time thy used a _very_ stupid brand. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 23 13:31:24 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: First "threshold" apps? (Was: "First PC" and other nonsense In-Reply-To: <006701be8db6$12d58520$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: To me, the first that crossed the threshold was Michael Shrayer's "Electric Pencil". (The PRE-CP/M version, not the TRS-80 or IBM PC versions.) For most on this list, it appears to be WordStar and VisiCalc. To most of the rest of the industry, it appears to be WordPervert and Lotus. Or is that now Mac and Windoze? From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Apr 23 14:01:06 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <006801be8db6$18a23340$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <4.1.19990423143442.00a577b0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:21 PM 4/23/99 -0600, Richard Erlacher said something like: >You're right, the numbers are not universal. It's hard to find numbers that >are, BUT, in 1952, people didn't have electric dryers, and washing machines >had wringers attached, as well as rollers on the bottom because housewives >would roll them out the walk in back of the house to where the clothes line >was located so they could hang their clothes and linens, the latter having >been wrung before being hung on the line. > >In '52, as men were returning from the Korean war, the economy was still >shuddering from the effect of the Korean war so soon in the wake of WWII. > >I'm not an economist, and even they probably can't explain exactly what was >going on, but in the early '50's a phone call, a soft drink, a Saturday >movie, and bus fare typically cost a nickel (that's 5-cents for those not >accustomed to our monetary units.) in the midwestern US. In early '52, I >lived in NYC, having just immigrated from Germany, and later (June '52) in >Oklahoma City. In '55, we moved to Denver, where things really didn't seem >too different, at least from what I heard from parents, etc. By then some >people did have electric dryers, though. Electric ranges were more common >as well. > >Housing was typically on 1/4-acre lots in the suburbs and the usual 1/6-1/5 >acre lots in the city. If you lived where lots were 1/3 acre, you were >probably well-off. > >When I lived in Oklahoma City, my nearest playmate was a physician's son. >The guy who lived across the street from him was the chief of the state's >highway patrol. By 1960, the culture had changed so much that people in >those positions wouldn't dream of living in the same neighborhood with >"working folks" like my parents. > >What I'm getting at here, is that things were VERY different by 1960, than >they had been seven or eight years before. > >If you were raised after '60, the world would have looked quite different >than it did in the early '50's. I was born in '53. I had the opportunity to see and perhaps experience the social, economic and ethnic changes which happened though the 60's decade and at least half of the 70's. What a change it was. I see where you are coming from Dick and lean more towards your view of the matter. However, when I put the same feelings into the perspective of some young whippersnapper like Sellam, then I see where he's coming from. Back in the early 60's, Dad had a job which paid about $4000 per year, Mom did not work. With a mortgage, trying to pay for a ten-year-old car, feeding me and my mother and him plus all the other incidental bills, we had little spare money. Fried chicken or something simple like macaroni and cheese were very common meals at supper because they were cheap. It was Kentucky Fried Chicken only because my mother is from the Eastern hills of KY, not from the Colonel's famous restaurant chain;) A $100 expenditure would be serious business if it was something which was really needed. Allison's list of costs is accurate for me too except for the salaries and our house cost $4300 on a half-acre in 1957 and there were only three in our family. Sellam and others his generation in CA probably lived in a region in which costs *and* corresponding salaries were higher than what folks of my generation (Allison, Dick) grew up with. Things are weird even now. A decent three bedroom house with two car garage on a decent lot in the city of Jamestown can be had for $45k to $60k. However, groceries are avg. 10% higher than big city costs likely because of lower competition and transportation costs to get them here. Other cities like the NYC area, Boston area, Chicago area, LA area, Bay Area, etc., etc., etc. have housing costs which are higher. Our European and Australian colleagues may have the same experiences. It's all relative as can be seen by my one example above. Sellam, Dick, myself and everybody else have different points of view as a result of our "home" areas and our ages therefore our opinions will be formed accordingly. Let's wander back to an appropriate topic for this list:) What was it? First PC? > >Dick > >-----Original Message----- >From: allisonp@world.std.com >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 6:51 AM >Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were >the80s > > >>> of the "average" American. First of all, it was over a month's pay for >the >>> average American, it was equivalent to six months' groceries for a family >of >>> four, and you could get a refrigerator or a washer, neither of which were >>> routine discretionary expenditures for the "average" American of that >time. >>> That was during and immediately after the Korean war, when a 4-bedroom >house >>> on a 1/4-acre lot cost $4600. That same house, now, in California would >>> cost you $4600 a month to rent. People's attitudes about what's >important >>> enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. >> >>The nubers you quote are not universal or reflected everywhere in the >>US. >> >>On LI NY, 1960: >> >> My father made roughly 100$ take home. >> My mother made 54$ as nurses aid. >> My parent house cost $18,000 in 1957 (1/3 acre) >> Neither car was never than three years old. >> A washer was 110$ >> A dryer (electric) was 122$ >> Bazooka gum was 1 cent a piece >> Weeks food from the A&P for 5 was ~33$ >> The PDP-1 was considered groundbreaking for it's low >> price of $120,000. >> >>By 1964 >> >> a 19 inch portable black and white TV was 120$ and still used >> tubes. >> >>In 1971 >> >> A new chevy pickup was 2700$ >> A used 8i system could be had for 2-3000 with peripherals(disks) >> A new Cincinatti Milichron CM2000 basic machine was $2000. >> >>in short use real numbers. >> >>Allison >> Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 23 14:08:10 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <007701be8dbc$ebab6940$0100c0a8@fuj03> Please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 11:31 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >> This "#@$&*() bull," was part of the party line presented by a DEC sales >> team at a presentation I attended about fifteen years ago, on behalf of one >> of the "systems integration contractors" their policies were designed to >> support. The presenters routinely referred to their clever position in the >> government market in the terms I used. > > >Considering I worked at DEC in 81-86 and we sold DIRECT to Fort Monmouth >I think that statement was misleading. I was not trying to mislead anyone, but, rather, to pass along what my colleagues and I were told at a pitch put on for us by the DEC sales force. We were engaged in a militarization of a uVAX-II by repackaging it in our own enclosure, with our own backplane/cardcage, and using EMULEX controllers and a truly high-res display subsystem separate from the console. Our task was integration-intensive. We had to buy a company in CA in order to ensure they would be around long enough to produce our ultra-high-res display boards, though I would have preferred to build it ourselves. That notion was incompatible with the premise on which the contract was based (COTS equipment, repackged to meet TEMPEST, among other standards. Do you suppose DEC had a separate company for handling this type of contract? That would explain the party-line that was laid out before us. We bought their Q-bus boards but provided our own . It seemed reasonable enough that they would take the position they took with government/military business. >DEC sold stuff via OEM's who often did system integration with NON-DEC >hardware and software and packaged systems with specialized requirements. >I remember a Martin Marietta special 11/70 in tempest cabinets with special >requirements -- but that was not common. > >A large number of the DEC stuff was sold through government contractors >because they could get machines under blanket agreements without >some of the government procurement restrictions and approvals. That was probably the case with our particular contract. I wasn't involved in the procurement, which made it a curious thing that I was sent to all these pitches. This was a "cost-plus" contract, so naturally it benefitted everyone when we could make the cost go up. Subsequent fixed-price arrangements had me begging our top managers to let me redesign the whole computer/cardcage/backplane using the microVax chipset by then (9/86 or so) available for use in BI-bus interfaces, on a VME card. I believed I could cram all the required hardware onto a dual-height VME card (about the size of a full Q-bus card) so we didn't have to deal with so many vendors, and then allowing us to use more readily available hi-res graphics hardware. The situation was so politically charged, I was called on the carpet by the VP in charge of that contract, and, I believe, nearly fired. If I hadn't been so fortunate as to have a long string of technical predictions (contradicting what the JPL guys had said) which were substantiated, I probably would have gone packing that day. >DEC got sued (and settled with the govt) because of the following issue: > >GSA got higher pricing from DEC than Ma Bell on their Vax orders. Were they buying through the same agent? >GSA also required installation, insurance, and warranty differences >in their negotiations for government pricing... I know -- I was dedicated >as an installation specialist in 81 when both Bell Labs and Fort Monmouth >were buying large amounts of Vax and DEC stuff. > >The GSA claimed the DEC prices for AT&T were lower than GSA prices >which is not allowed. DEC claimed they weren't for the same configuration >and services (which was true). >Ma Bell paid for insurance as a line item and either installed the machines >themselves and self insured or did away with insurance. > >(The govt didn't accept FOB coverage -- you sue the trucking company >for damages. DEC had to process any warranty and go against the delivery >company. You should see what an 11/780 looks like after it's been dropped >off a loading dock. Card cages were smashed. H7000 power supplies where >the card cages were. Doors bent in half. That machine was repaired >and was still running 4 or 5 years ago.) > >DEC settled rather than fight the government in court on this one. This is one of those cases where you settle because you don't think you can find a judge smart enough to understand the issues. >Bill From max82 at surfree.com Fri Apr 23 13:16:06 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: Displaying core states In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> (yeah right) but this is the kind of project Tim Hunkin really gets a kick >> out of. And I've got to try to do this with nuts from a hardware store >> since is the right way to do it. (I'm still in awe at how they recorded >> sound on a scotch tape with rust sprinkled on it!) Really? There's a show like that? I thought they only had that stuff in the USSR (in the USSR, there was a television show about how to build a robot out of tin cans and magazines had plans for radio-controlled boats)! Where can I find such wonderful sources of information? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Apr 23 14:23:55 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: DEC In-Reply-To: <004301be8db1$05f93ae0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from Richard Erlacher at "Apr 23, 1999 11:45: 5 am" Message-ID: <199904231923.PAA01429@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > You know, there must have been another company using the Digital name that > put on those pitches my colleagues and I had to attend, which was not > publicly traded, because that was part of the same spiel, i.e. "that's why > we're not public . . ." I'm sure I didn't dream that, because my boss was > usually present and I didn't really like what I was hearing. Is this > possible? I don't believe a public corporation can have non-public > subsidiaries. Can it? > > Dick DEC was publicly traded back since at least the '60's. I think this was someone els. Bill From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 23 14:39:15 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: H214 board for pdp-8x? In-Reply-To: <021001be8db6$5fdc7400$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990423123801.03d4f430@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> No it doesn't, the fact that its "18 bits" gives it away as a 16bit + parity board for a PDP-11. The 8/E uses the H212 and the H220 (4K) core mats. --Chuck At 01:23 PM 4/23/99 -0500, you wrote: >Can any pdp8'ers out there tell me if an H214 core board works in an 8E ? I >thought the 8E used H212, but I'm not sure > >Thanks! > >Jay West > From ss at allegro.com Fri Apr 23 14:39:53 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: Bringing up a old Powersupply In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990422222745.00a434b0@mcmanis.com> References: <"v04020a0fb345b01a43bf(a)(091)192.168.1.2(093)*"@MHS> Message-ID: <199904231939.MAA12905@bart.allegro.com> Re: > > Is this a good idea? [slow power up] > > I'm on the fence about it. On the one hand you will find out if you've got ... > YES. Especially under load. The thing that often fails in a PSU is the > filter capacitors and weak ones will show up as ripple and ripple will Several friends who collect old radios swear by the VARIAC. They claim that the old capacitors "dry out", and that running them at, say, 80 V for a few hours (or a day) rejuvenates them. I've heard time requirements vary from an hour to a day, unfortunately. From gregorym at cadvision.com Fri Apr 23 14:46:17 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990423134615.0071e73c@cadvision.com> At 10:19 PM 4/22/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach >> of the "average" American. >Don't you mean YOUR attitudes, Richard? Get this through your thick >skull: YOU do NOT represent the mass thought process of humans. >> $300 was not an expenditure an "average" American would consider lightly in >> 1952. > >Sure, but the point is that it could CONCEIVABLY have been afforded by >anyone who wished to save their money for 6 months so they could collect >the parts together to build one. >I know if I were alive back then, and I had the same excitement for >computers that I do today, and an opportunity to build my own computer >came up for 1/10th of my yearly salary, I sure as hell would have saved >the money to build one. > >Whatever. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Both Sellam and Richard have valid points, but neither of them are right, because they're arguing apples and oranges. Richard is arguing consumer acceptance as a criterion - what average Americans _did_ do - and the fact is that very few average Americans in the 50s spent $300 on personal computers. Sellam is arguing affordability and availability as a criterion - what an average American _could_ have done - and Doug's site shows that it was possible to buy a PC for an affordable price in the 50s. Reduce this argument to its extremes: in the extension of Richard's view, _no_ PC can be considered a personal computer until every average American buys one, which hasn't happened yet and probably never will; in the extension of Sellam's view, if I can show that Leonardo da Vinci scrawled down plans for a recognizable computer that cost less than 3 month's pay in commonly available materials in 1500, even if one was never built, that will be the first personal computer, because someone could have bought or built one. This argument can never be resolved, because to do so, you have to agree on whether actual purchasing (as opposed to the possibility of purchasing) is required, and if so, what degree of consumer acceptance is enough (do you have to sell 1 machine? 50? 5000? 250,000?). I don't think anyone can agree on this. And let's keep the personal gibes to a minimum, please (i.e. "Get it through your thick skull"). My 2 cents, Mark. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 23 14:52:02 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <00a501be8dc2$d5b60400$0100c0a8@fuj03> See embedded comments below, plz. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 12:22 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >Now, now. > >Without a lot of loose nuts, silicon valley and the "personal computer >revolution" might not have come off. That's actually true, I believe, although the now-past concentration of "intelligencia" in CA was the product of wise investment in educational institutions on California's part. With the economic successes bred by the liberal policies toward education and human services, California became a magnet for not only free-thinkers, but free-loaders as well. Now they're well into a backlash, e.g. Prop 13, Prop 187, etc. which seem to have passed. The liberal forces are still strong though. They talked about Jerry Brown as "Governor Moonbeam" but he was just a reflection of what the people had indicated a few years earlier that they wanted. A truly constructive dialog has to begin with the diametrically opposed extremes, doesn't it? >"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; >the unreasonable one persists in trying to >adapt the world to himself. >Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." > - George bernard Shaw > > >Just wait. After the big one, and everything east of the San Andreas >sinks into the Atlantic, . . . > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 23 14:58:44 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <00aa01be8dc3$b1f95840$0100c0a8@fuj03> Don't forget that between 1952 and 1960, the price of a phone call, a coin-machine-vended soft drink, and lots of other common consumables doubled. The price of cars did more than that, and the country, having endured, and survived, the post-war(s) recession(s), was about to embark on what now is viewed as the biggest and fastest moving era of economic growth the world has ever seen. That took less than the 8 years between the end of the Korean war and the election of JFK. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 1:13 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >Upon the date 12:21 PM 4/23/99 -0600, Richard Erlacher said something like: >>You're right, the numbers are not universal. It's hard to find numbers that >>are, BUT, in 1952, people didn't have electric dryers, and washing machines >>had wringers attached, as well as rollers on the bottom because housewives >>would roll them out the walk in back of the house to where the clothes line >>was located so they could hang their clothes and linens, the latter having >>been wrung before being hung on the line. >> >>In '52, as men were returning from the Korean war, the economy was still >>shuddering from the effect of the Korean war so soon in the wake of WWII. >> >>I'm not an economist, and even they probably can't explain exactly what was >>going on, but in the early '50's a phone call, a soft drink, a Saturday >>movie, and bus fare typically cost a nickel (that's 5-cents for those not >>accustomed to our monetary units.) in the midwestern US. In early '52, I >>lived in NYC, having just immigrated from Germany, and later (June '52) in >>Oklahoma City. In '55, we moved to Denver, where things really didn't seem >>too different, at least from what I heard from parents, etc. By then some >>people did have electric dryers, though. Electric ranges were more common >>as well. >> >>Housing was typically on 1/4-acre lots in the suburbs and the usual 1/6-1/5 >>acre lots in the city. If you lived where lots were 1/3 acre, you were >>probably well-off. >> >>When I lived in Oklahoma City, my nearest playmate was a physician's son. >>The guy who lived across the street from him was the chief of the state's >>highway patrol. By 1960, the culture had changed so much that people in >>those positions wouldn't dream of living in the same neighborhood with >>"working folks" like my parents. >> >>What I'm getting at here, is that things were VERY different by 1960, than >>they had been seven or eight years before. >> >>If you were raised after '60, the world would have looked quite different >>than it did in the early '50's. > >I was born in '53. I had the opportunity to see and perhaps experience the >social, economic and ethnic changes which happened though the 60's decade >and at least half of the 70's. What a change it was. > >I see where you are coming from Dick and lean more towards your view of the >matter. However, when I put the same feelings into the perspective of some >young whippersnapper like Sellam, then I see where he's coming from. > >Back in the early 60's, Dad had a job which paid about $4000 per year, Mom >did not work. With a mortgage, trying to pay for a ten-year-old car, >feeding me and my mother and him plus all the other incidental bills, we >had little spare money. Fried chicken or something simple like macaroni and >cheese were very common meals at supper because they were cheap. It was >Kentucky Fried Chicken only because my mother is from the Eastern hills of >KY, not from the Colonel's famous restaurant chain;) > >A $100 expenditure would be serious business if it was something which was >really needed. > >Allison's list of costs is accurate for me too except for the salaries and >our house cost $4300 on a half-acre in 1957 and there were only three in >our family. Sellam and others his generation in CA probably lived in a >region in which costs *and* corresponding salaries >were higher than what folks of my generation (Allison, Dick) grew up with. > >Things are weird even now. A decent three bedroom house with two car garage >on a decent lot in the city of Jamestown can be had for $45k to $60k. >However, groceries are avg. 10% higher than big city costs likely because >of lower competition and transportation costs to get them here. Other >cities like the NYC area, Boston area, Chicago area, LA area, Bay Area, >etc., etc., etc. have housing costs which are higher. Our European and >Australian colleagues may have the same experiences. > >It's all relative as can be seen by my one example above. Sellam, Dick, >myself and everybody else have different points of view as a result of our >"home" areas and our ages therefore our opinions will be formed accordingly. > >Let's wander back to an appropriate topic for this list:) What was it? >First PC? > > >> >>Dick >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: allisonp@world.std.com >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >>Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 6:51 AM >>Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were >>the80s >> >> >>>> of the "average" American. First of all, it was over a month's pay for >>the >>>> average American, it was equivalent to six months' groceries for a family >>of >>>> four, and you could get a refrigerator or a washer, neither of which were >>>> routine discretionary expenditures for the "average" American of that >>time. >>>> That was during and immediately after the Korean war, when a 4-bedroom >>house >>>> on a 1/4-acre lot cost $4600. That same house, now, in California would >>>> cost you $4600 a month to rent. People's attitudes about what's >>important >>>> enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. >>> >>>The nubers you quote are not universal or reflected everywhere in the >>>US. >>> >>>On LI NY, 1960: >>> >>> My father made roughly 100$ take home. >>> My mother made 54$ as nurses aid. >>> My parent house cost $18,000 in 1957 (1/3 acre) >>> Neither car was never than three years old. >>> A washer was 110$ >>> A dryer (electric) was 122$ >>> Bazooka gum was 1 cent a piece >>> Weeks food from the A&P for 5 was ~33$ >>> The PDP-1 was considered groundbreaking for it's low >>> price of $120,000. >>> >>>By 1964 >>> >>> a 19 inch portable black and white TV was 120$ and still used >>> tubes. >>> >>>In 1971 >>> >>> A new chevy pickup was 2700$ >>> A used 8i system could be had for 2-3000 with peripherals(disks) >>> A new Cincinatti Milichron CM2000 basic machine was $2000. >>> >>>in short use real numbers. >>> >>>Allison >>> > >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net >Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From at258 at osfn.org Fri Apr 23 15:21:16 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990423134615.0071e73c@cadvision.com> Message-ID: Just a couple of stray thoughts. While a person could possibly have purchased a $300 computer in the 50's, why would they? What could they have done with it? The answer is almost nothing. The only people who might have been interested would have been ham radio or electronics hobbysists, and they would very likely have built there own. I don't even believe there was a viable used market for low cost computers in the 50's, they would all have been enormous mainframes. To make things a bit more difficult, I believe "personal computer" is a term that invites trouble. It seems so simple, but when you look at it, you see that it means ANY computer put to personal use. If you have an old 360 in the garage you use to balqnce your chequebook, this qualifies as a personal computer. The term is very open ended and any attempt to limit it by a specialised definition will likely result in gibberish. A new term will need to be chosen, especially for earlier, small individually used pieces of equipment, which is what we are trying to quantify. On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Mark Gregory wrote: > At 10:19 PM 4/22/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > >> The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the > reach > >> of the "average" American. > >Don't you mean YOUR attitudes, Richard? Get this through your thick > >skull: YOU do NOT represent the mass thought process of humans. > >> $300 was not an expenditure an "average" American would consider lightly in > >> 1952. > > > >Sure, but the point is that it could CONCEIVABLY have been afforded by > >anyone who wished to save their money for 6 months so they could collect > >the parts together to build one. > >I know if I were alive back then, and I had the same excitement for > >computers that I do today, and an opportunity to build my own computer > >came up for 1/10th of my yearly salary, I sure as hell would have saved > >the money to build one. > > > >Whatever. > > > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: > dastar@siconic.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Both Sellam and Richard have valid points, but neither of them are right, > because they're arguing apples and oranges. Richard is arguing consumer > acceptance as a criterion - what average Americans _did_ do - and the fact > is that very few average Americans in the 50s spent $300 on personal > computers. > Sellam is arguing affordability and availability as a criterion - what an > average American _could_ have done - and Doug's site shows that it was > possible to buy a PC for an affordable price in the 50s. > Reduce this argument to its extremes: in the extension of Richard's view, > _no_ PC can be considered a personal computer until every average American > buys one, which hasn't happened yet and probably never will; in the > extension of Sellam's view, if I can show that Leonardo da Vinci scrawled > down plans for a recognizable computer that cost less than 3 month's pay in > commonly available materials in 1500, even if one was never built, that > will be the first personal computer, because someone could have bought or > built one. > > This argument can never be resolved, because to do so, you have to agree on > whether actual purchasing (as opposed to the possibility of purchasing) > is required, and if so, what degree of consumer acceptance is enough (do > you have to sell 1 machine? 50? 5000? 250,000?). I don't think anyone can > agree on this. > > And let's keep the personal gibes to a minimum, please (i.e. "Get it > through your thick skull"). > > My 2 cents, > > Mark. > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 23 16:20:13 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: Wang Stuff is avail. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990423162013.21a78018@intellistar.net> At 11:09 AM 4/23/99 -0700, John said: > I can help with delivery within a reasonable radius of Southern >California.... Cool! I'll take it if you consider Florida a reasonable distance! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 23 16:26:18 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: 1702 EPROM question In-Reply-To: <199904231728.KAA18164@civic.hal.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19990422203558.0acf24bc@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990423162618.21a7b92e@intellistar.net> Dwight, Thanks. These are $4 for both kinds so they're in the same range. I've heard a lot of people on this list asking for them and I didn't know how hard they were to find. Joe At 10:28 AM 4/23/99 -0700, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> I scrounged around a found a stock of Intel 1702 EPROMs today. I know some >> of you have been looking for these. What are they worth? >> >> Joe > > >Hi Joe > I resently bought some at a local surplus. For the >gray ceramic ones I payed $1.95 each. For the gold >lead white ceramic Intels, I payed $4.95 each. That >should give you a range. >Dwight > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 23 16:23:35 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases In-Reply-To: <199904231825.UAA17263@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <000301be8d88$26f965e0$0100a8c0@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990423162335.21a7316a@intellistar.net> At 08:25 PM 4/23/99 +1, you wrote: >> >I've got a couple of Commodore PETs that need to be cleaned up. >> >I'd like to restore them to like new condition...the only problem >> >is some markings on the systems. > >> >Any ideas on how to remove from the metal case (with damaging the >> >painted surface underneath) >> > - Spray paint (numbers) >> > - Permanent magic marker (more numbers) > >> Hmmm, the paint is a bit difficult, but for the "Permanent" magic marker >> mess, I've found that Rubbing Alchol works wonders. It's the same stuff >> used in alchol lamps. You can buy it in a large container, and it might >> even work for the spray paint. > >Achtung, be suspicient to any alcohol bearing product when it comes >to Commo SK/LP/HP machines - there are paintings known that will be >damaged from alcohol. At one time thy used a _very_ stupid brand. There's a lot of difference in alcohols. Rubbing alcohol is mainly Isopropyl alcohol. Denatured alcohol is mainly ethyl alcohol. There are MANY other kinds of alcohol and some will harm paint and some won't. Best to test some on a out of the way spot first. Joe From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Apr 23 15:24:02 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Apr 23, 99 08:47:27 am Message-ID: <199904232024.NAA03038@saul9.u.washington.edu> I wrote: > > Some computers, of course, have neither monitor nor signal generation (e.g., > > "card cage" machines like the S-100 machines, or machines with only a serial > > port for a terminal). And some OTOH have built-in monitors (e.g., the > > TRS-80 Model III, some HP machines, and the IBM 5100 -- all of which are > > from roughly the era of the Apple ][). Allison Parent wrote: > There were not less than 8 video cards for S100 by 1977, several offered > what was considerd higest resolution that then current monitors could > display in color. Please understand that I'm making a very specific distinction. I'm paying a slight amount of attention to the argument that Richard and someone else (I forget who) are having, and it seems to be getting out of control. (I could be wrong about that... I hope I'm not making things worse!) The argument is getting out of control because the arguers are trying to make the same point (to be a personal computer, a machine must have video capability as an integral part of its construction) using different definitions of "video capability". So I wanted to point out that the two definitions didn't match. The issue of "integral part" is different. I didn't mean that the S-100 machines had no video capability, I mean that it wasn't an integral part of the system because you had to install it. A manufacturer (like SOL? I think) might install the video for you and sell the result as a package -- that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry can't be easily changed or removed. Actually, this whole "First PC" argument is getting out of control, because everyone is free to use a different definition. The the argument degenerates into a "My definition is right!" argument. That's the reason I don't get involved. -- Derek From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 23 15:29:00 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: References: <004301be8db1$05f93ae0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990423152900.00ffa580@vpwisfirewall> At 02:18 PM 4/23/99 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > >DEC was a monolithic company, no subsidiaries, publicly traded since >well before the 1980s. >Now, thre are not less than three companies that were integrators and part >suppliers that used DIGITAL as part of their first name. And DEC had several run-ins with "Dairy Equipment Corporation" of Madison, Wisconsin. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 23 15:44:55 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: Is video relevant? (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <199904232024.NAA03038@saul9.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > The argument is getting out of control OK > because the arguers are trying to > make the same point (to be a personal computer, a machine must have video > capability as an integral part of its construction) using different > definitions of "video capability". So I wanted to point out that the > two definitions didn't match. > The issue of "integral part" is different. I didn't mean that the S-100 > machines had no video capability, I mean that it wasn't an integral part of > the system because you had to install it. A manufacturer (like SOL? I > think) might install the video for you and sell the result as a package -- > that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from > a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry > can't be easily changed or removed. Excuse me? Am I misunderstanding you? Or are you saying that a machine that is sold without video is NOT a "personal computer", even if a video card is sold separately? And that if the DEALER installs the video card, that it is still a "borderline case" for being a PC? By THAT reasoning, virtually NONE of the "PC Compatible" could be more than "borderline"! It would mean that NONE of my 80x86 machines are PCs! (I purchased the video cards separately, and installed them in all of them, INCLUDING the 5150s.) > Actually, this whole "First PC" argument is getting out of control, because > everyone is free to use a different definition. The the argument > degenerates into a "My definition is right!" argument. That's the reason I > don't get involved. THAT part is inarguable. Unless a definition becomes externally impoised, it will always remain subjective. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Apr 23 15:48:23 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s Message-ID: <990423164823.20c00bcc@trailing-edge.com> >The issue of "integral part" is different. I didn't mean that the S-100 >machines had no video capability, I mean that it wasn't an integral part of >the system because you had to install it. A manufacturer (like SOL? I >think) might install the video for you and sell the result as a package -- >that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from >a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry >can't be easily changed or removed. >Actually, this whole "First PC" argument is getting out of control, I agree it's getting out of control, but back to the "integral video" question: doesn't this requirement make the IBM PC (5150) not a PC? (I'm about to break into Eric the Half-a-Bee here...) Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Apr 23 15:52:13 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: Is video relevant? (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s Message-ID: <990423165213.20c00bcc@trailing-edge.com> > that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from > a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry > can't be easily changed or removed. And as long as we're taking arguments to their extremes, Apple ]['s *often* had their video circuitry changed and video signals replaced. That's what the 80-column (and other available video cards) did. Later ]['s have a header on the motherboard to make it easy to substitute aftermarket video. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 23 17:57:16 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.32.19990423134615.0071e73c@cadvision.com> Message-ID: <199904232058.WAA21853@horus.mch.sni.de> > Just a couple of stray thoughts. While a person could possibly have > purchased a $300 computer in the 50's, why would they? What could they > have done with it? The answer is almost nothing. The only people who > might have been interested would have been ham radio or electronics > hobbysists, and they would very likely have built there own. I don't > even believe there was a viable used market for low cost computers in > the 50's, they would all have been enormous mainframes. Where is the difference to the 70s and 80s ? Gruss H. -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 23 16:24:32 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: Is video relevant? (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was:And what were the 80s Message-ID: <004401be8dcf$ae31d280$0100c0a8@fuj03> I have to agree that the argument is not pivotin around a single point. I've always thought of computers intended for home use as being personal computers. This doesn't mean that they can't be applied to non-home tasks, but if they're designed, packaged, and marketed for home use, they probably ought to be considered personal. The same can be true if they were designed to be used by a single individual, as opposed to several even if at different times. This doesn't mean that if it can be used by more than one individual it's not a personal computer. Likewise, if it's priced such that a normal, rational (not to imply that we users are either of these things) person could easily consider and justify owning one, it's probably a personal computer. Whether it had video-game-capable graphics is another issue. NOT EVERYONE WANTS HIS COMPUTER TO BE A HOT GAME MACHINE. That doesn't say that everyone who has a computer well suited for video games has a game machine, but it also doesn't say that every "game machine," be it Atari or Z-whatever, must be excluded from consideration as a personal computer. Frankly, I've completely lost track of why this was being discussed. I was, at one point indicating that what was listed at the "first" personal computer was really pretty expensive for "personal" consumption at the time at which it, or, rather, its plans were being marketed. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 2:57 PM Subject: Is video relevant? (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was:And what were the 80s >On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: >> The argument is getting out of control >OK >> because the arguers are trying to >> make the same point (to be a personal computer, a machine must have video >> capability as an integral part of its construction) using different >> definitions of "video capability". So I wanted to point out that the >> two definitions didn't match. >> The issue of "integral part" is different. I didn't mean that the S-100 >> machines had no video capability, I mean that it wasn't an integral part of >> the system because you had to install it. A manufacturer (like SOL? I >> think) might install the video for you and sell the result as a package -- >> that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from >> a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry >> can't be easily changed or removed. > >Excuse me? >Am I misunderstanding you? >Or are you saying that a machine that is sold without video is NOT a >"personal computer", even if a video card is sold separately? >And that if the DEALER installs the video card, that it is still a >"borderline case" for being a PC? > >By THAT reasoning, virtually NONE of the "PC Compatible" could be more >than "borderline"! It would mean that NONE of my 80x86 machines are PCs! >(I purchased the video cards separately, and installed them in all of >them, INCLUDING the 5150s.) > > >> Actually, this whole "First PC" argument is getting out of control, because >> everyone is free to use a different definition. The the argument >> degenerates into a "My definition is right!" argument. That's the reason I >> don't get involved. > >THAT part is inarguable. Unless a definition becomes externally impoised, >it will always remain subjective. > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 23 16:28:00 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <004d01be8dd0$2a1b51a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> That's actually quite true. The technology didn't yet exist in 1950-55 for the hobbyist to expand on the initial concept and extend it into something potentially useful or even marginally so. It probably wasn't even terribly educational. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 3:08 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s > >> Just a couple of stray thoughts. While a person could possibly have >> purchased a $300 computer in the 50's, why would they? What could they >> have done with it? The answer is almost nothing. The only people who >> might have been interested would have been ham radio or electronics >> hobbysists, and they would very likely have built there own. I don't >> even believe there was a viable used market for low cost computers in >> the 50's, they would all have been enormous mainframes. > >Where is the difference to the 70s and 80s ? > > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. >H.Achternbusch From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Apr 23 15:59:24 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: First "threshold" apps? (Was: "First PC" and other nonsense In-Reply-To: References: <006701be8db6$12d58520$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: Without question, to me, my first PC was the IBM 1130. The whole system fit in one room with plenty of space for storage, card reader, and line printer and all associated supplies. I could sit at the system console and do stuff, or just punch in my data on one of the keypunches, slip a program deck in front and dump it in the card reader hopper. No trips to the comp center and putting things in a pigeon hole, then waiting perhaps a couple hours at times for my low priority job to execute, it ran right in front of me in real time. I could program it, it did my homework, and more than any other system it opened the door to computing for me. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 23 17:48:08 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <199904232248.AA20656@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > > Except that the SOL was sold with a VDM1 as part of the system unless you > bought it bare deliberatly (like you could a PC). Ummm... must beg to differ here. While the SOL uses the VDM-1 circuitry, it is an integral part of the main board rather than an S-100 add-on, and I do not recall any variant offered that would have been minus the video system. Same with the Cassette I/O circuitry which mirrored the S-100 CUTS board from P.T. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From at258 at osfn.org Fri Apr 23 18:17:20 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <199904232058.WAA21853@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: In the 30 years from 1952 to 1982, many older systems became redundant; minicomputers appeared, matured and were surplused, and the micro appeared. at the end of this period, it would have been possible to acquire a computer that actually did something, possibly at a reasonable cost. Also, to help keep things in persepctive, the new computer I would buy today would cost in the $2700-4400 range., although I'm waiting for the new models in the next 12-18 months. On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > > Just a couple of stray thoughts. While a person could possibly have > > purchased a $300 computer in the 50's, why would they? What could they > > have done with it? The answer is almost nothing. The only people who > > might have been interested would have been ham radio or electronics > > hobbysists, and they would very likely have built there own. I don't > > even believe there was a viable used market for low cost computers in > > the 50's, they would all have been enormous mainframes. > > Where is the difference to the 70s and 80s ? > > > Gruss > H. > > -- > Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. > H.Achternbusch > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Fri Apr 23 18:26:15 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <004d01be8dd0$2a1b51a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: Exactly, you Allison and I remember enough of those times to appreciate the utter uselessness of a computer in those days. There were NO small computers, and most software was scientific or business related. If computers had been that available and useful, they would have been common in businesses. As it was, even mainframes didn't become really common until the next decade. On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > That's actually quite true. The technology didn't yet exist in 1950-55 for > the hobbyist to expand on the initial concept and extend it into something > potentially useful or even marginally so. It probably wasn't even terribly > educational. > > Dick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hans Franke > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 3:08 PM > Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were > the80s > > > > > >> Just a couple of stray thoughts. While a person could possibly have > >> purchased a $300 computer in the 50's, why would they? What could they > >> have done with it? The answer is almost nothing. The only people who > >> might have been interested would have been ham radio or electronics > >> hobbysists, and they would very likely have built there own. I don't > >> even believe there was a viable used market for low cost computers in > >> the 50's, they would all have been enormous mainframes. > > > >Where is the difference to the 70s and 80s ? > > > > > >Gruss > >H. > > > >-- > >Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. > >H.Achternbusch > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 23 18:13:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <001601be8d29$7fa8d860$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 22, 99 07:34:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 542 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990424/c34c4016/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 23 18:49:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: Bringing up a old Powersupply In-Reply-To: <199904231606.JAA18144@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Apr 23, 99 09:06:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1080 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990424/bed40229/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 23 18:27:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:32 2005 Subject: Bringing up a old Powersupply In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 22, 99 10:09:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2482 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990424/0c7f1cef/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 23 18:56:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <199904232024.NAA03038@saul9.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Apr 23, 99 01:24:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 814 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990424/89fd51b7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 23 18:34:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Bringing up a old Powersupply In-Reply-To: <19990423092915.28449.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 23, 99 09:29:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 390 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990424/4132ea69/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 23 19:56:38 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s Message-ID: <001401be8ded$4f8da100$0100c0a8@fuj03> I'm sure everyone recongnizes that fact. What's important is getting past that point, i.e. settling what the definition is going to be. In the case of the early video cards, for the S-100, they weren't generally used as the console interface. In fact I don't know of a graphics card that was, though on toward '82-83 there were a few with some of the more "capable" graphics support chips like the NEC 7220 or that "BIG" Hitachi graphics chip, though I never saw one except at a trade show. Some of these were pretty demanding applications which quickly pointed up the weakness in using 8-bit computers for multi-plane graphics. They also pointed up the fact that decent high resolution color monitors cost about as much as a house . . . well, not quite, but you get the idea. If you bought one, you'd better keep the box, because you'd need a place to live when your wife found out . . . In any case, the dual-console (text/graphics) model was the default. The personal computer definition, IMHO, doesn't require that there be a dedicated video circuit, but does require one be tolerant of it, at least at the low end, because a lot of fairly potent "video-toy" types were pretty weak-kneed computers, and thus were touted as being for home use. You might say these were definitely personal, but you might also call their characterization as computers into question. I think it's a little shallow to quibble over whether the video was built in or removable when the system wouldn't really do much without some sort of video interface to effect the console function. As I recall, there was a board by VIDEX (?) for the Apple-][ which allowed you to present an 80x24 console, but didn't support graphics. The normal Apple graphics could be shown, though, by means of a separate monitor attached to the normal video output. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 6:37 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s >> The issue of "integral part" is different. I didn't mean that the S-100 >> machines had no video capability, I mean that it wasn't an integral part of >> the system because you had to install it. A manufacturer (like SOL? I >> think) might install the video for you and sell the result as a package -- >> that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from >> a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry >> can't be easily changed or removed. > >You do realise that this definition implies that the IBM PC is not a >'personal computer' :-). On all the 'classic' IBM PC-family machines, and >on a lot of clones, the video system was an _optional_ plug-in card. I >think there's even a way to configure machines without a video card if >you're clever... > >-tony > From a2k at one.net Fri Apr 23 20:58:59 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Apple 1 auction In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990421080000.007a22a0@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: Nonono... the best one of all: ubiquitous! Or however you spell it :) Kevin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After sifting through the overwritten remaining blocks of Luke's home directory, Luke and PDP-1 sped away from /u/lars, across the surface of the Winchester riding Luke's flying read/write head. PDP-1 had Luke stop at the edge of the cylinder overlooking /usr/spool/uucp. "Unix-to-Unix Copy Program;" said PDP-1. "You will never find a more wretched hive of bugs and flamers. We must be cautious." -- DECWARS ____________________________________________________________________ | Kevin Stewart | "I am a secret | | KC8BLL ----------| Wrapped in a mystery -Milford High School | | a2k@one.net | Wrapped in an enigma Drama Tech Dept. | |jlennon@nether.net| And drizzled in some tasty chocolate stuff.| -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Charles E. Fox wrote: > At 02:03 PM 4/20/1999 -0500, you wrote: > >On 20 Apr 99, at 13:48, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > >> Let me know if they actually sell it for 40 big ones... I can always > >> have them sell my Sun Microsystems model 1/100U "prototype'... Hmm, > >> maybe I can convince them that the U means something important... > >> Quick, someone with a thesaurus look up a word starting with U that > >> means either Prototype, Rare, or Java... > > > >Rare - Uncommon, unusual > > > > > > > >----- > >David Williams - Computer Packrat > >dlw@trailingedge.com > >http://www.trailingedge.com > > > > > > How about "Unique"? > > > Charles E. Fox > Chas E. Fox Video Productions > 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada > email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo > From jlwest at tseinc.com Fri Apr 23 20:53:32 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Fw: Old HP 9000/300 for free - you want it? Message-ID: <001301be8df5$437fb760$0101a8c0@jay> Thought someone here might be interested... As usual, please contact the original poster... Jay West -----Original Message----- From: William Blair Wagner Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp.hardware,comp.sys.hp.hpux,comp.sys.hp.misc To: hpux-admin mailing-list Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 6:07 PM Subject: Old HP 9000/300 for free - you want it? >Hi Gang, > >Listen, this is not a joke. I have a very old (1985) HP 9000/300 model 350 >workstation. Its a relick! Its likely useless for anyone other than ant antique >collector, but I thought I'd see if anyone wanted it or parts of it before I >throw it all in the trash. It has the following parts / features: > >Workstation Cabinet: HP 9000/300 model 330 (1985) >1) Mainboard has BNC Ethernet connection, 9-pin rs232 connection, RCA sound mono >connection, HP-HIL connection, and an HP-IB connection >2) HP98547A HiRes Color Bitmapped video board with 64 colors ,6 planes of >display memory, and the 3 R-G-B connectors >3) HP98628A Datacomm board (I think for an external modem or something) > >External Cabinet: HP 9153B >1) 20MB hard disc drive >2) 3.5" removable diskette >3) HP-IB interface > >Monitor: >HP 98785A 17" (made by Sony in 1989) R-G-B monitor (very nice!) > >Keyboard and Mouse included too. > >It has HP Basic loaded (that's the OS), not HP-UX. > >I'll give this to anyone who wants to come get it, or pay for shipping. Like I >said, I dont expect anyone to want this, but you never know! > >Please email me if your interested, I wont be checking the news groups for >replies. > > >-- >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >: William Blair Wagner :"Education is not always knowing the answer, : >: CCI/Triad Company : ..but rather knowing where to look for it!" : >: blairw@triadnewton.com : >: UltimatePlus Software Engineer : >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From djenner at halcyon.com Fri Apr 23 21:03:14 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases References: Message-ID: <37212662.A067A496@halcyon.com> We (the list) went through this a year or two ago. Somewhere there is a FAQ that talks alot about this. You need to be careful with CitriSolv. If you use too strong a solution, or don't rub it off, it will literally dissolve most plastics. Used carefully, it does a great job. Dave Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > I use CitriSolv, a fairly common citrus-based solvent. It's not so nasty > to your skin or lungs, and treats most hard plastics and painted surfaces > gentle enough. It's the only thing that takes the Thrift Stores' sharpie > graffitti off of this stuff... > > Hope that helps, > > Aaron From danburrows at mindspring.com Fri Apr 23 21:00:05 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: PDP11 Info Posted Message-ID: <002901be8df6$400f0530$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> I just scanned the PDP11/23 and 11/34 pocket guides and posted them in GIF format at ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/pdp1134 and ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/pdp1124 In ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/ you will also find the TD systems Viking user and technical manuals that I OCR'd but the OCR did not do a good job of keeping the tables lined up. There are a few GIF's of those important pages. There is a UDT and a QDT jpg of the boards also. These boards have been very commonly rebadged with other companies names on them. They are Qbuss and Unibuss SCSI disk / tape controllers. Mixed in are UC0* files (GIF's) that are the important pages from the Emulex UC07/08 Qbus SCSI manual to set them up also. Zane hopefully will sort them into their own directories and post the new directory info. Dan From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Apr 23 17:37:12 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were t In-Reply-To: References: <002101be8d46$aa9262e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <199904240237.WAA19149@smtp.interlog.com> On 22 Apr 99 at 22:19, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach > > of the "average" American. First of all, it was over a month's pay for the > > average American, it was equivalent to six months' groceries for a family of > > four, and you could get a refrigerator or a washer, neither of which were > > routine discretionary expenditures for the "average" American of that time. > > That was during and immediately after the Korean war, when a 4-bedroom house > > on a 1/4-acre lot cost $4600. That same house, now, in California would > > cost you $4600 a month to rent. People's attitudes about what's important > > enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. > > Don't you mean YOUR attitudes, Richard? Get this through your thick > skull: YOU do NOT represent the mass thought process of humans. Time and > again you insist on applying your OWN personal values and opinions upon > the rest of the world when you make an assertion, and fail to realize > there are 6 billion people out there with ideas differing from your own. > > > $300 was not an expenditure an "average" American would consider lightly in > > 1952. That was the year I came to this country. There was an election > > between Adlai E. Stevenson (Democrat) and Dwight D. Eisenhower (Republican). > > It was BEFORE the first test of a hydrogen bomb. > > Sure, but the point is that it could CONCEIVABLY have been afforded by > anyone who wished to save their money for 6 months so they could collect > the parts together to build one. Just because YOU would not have chosen > to build one does not mean everyone else in the world would have made that > same choice. Everyone on the planet does not share your values, contrary > to your belief and opinion. > > I know if I were alive back then, and I had the same excitement for > computers that I do today, and an opportunity to build my own computer > came up for 1/10th of my yearly salary, I sure as hell would have saved > the money to build one. > > 1/10th of the average American's yearly salary is about $3,000 these days > (thereabouts) and I know plenty of people who would save up that amount to > buy a righteous computer with all the trimmings in our time. So $300 out > of a $3,600 yearly salary (or whatever) back then is not only possible but > very do-able. > > > People weren't crazy then as they are now . . . and all the loose nuts > > hadn't yet learned to run to California. > > Whatever. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Naaah, you would have bought a Sax or Trumpet. Or maybe a really cool Indian Motorcycle. Or chopped and channelled an old model B Ford and put in a 59A block with a 3/4 cam and dual carbs. A computer ? Only some weird ultra straight with social problems would be interested and dedicated enough to go that route. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Apr 23 17:37:14 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were th In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.32.19990423134615.0071e73c@cadvision.com> Message-ID: <199904240237.WAA19174@smtp.interlog.com> On 23 Apr 99 at 16:21, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > Just a couple of stray thoughts. While a person could possibly have > purchased a $300 computer in the 50's, why would they? What could they > have done with it? The answer is almost nothing. The only people who > might have been interested would have been ham radio or electronics > hobbysists, and they would very likely have built there own. I don't > even believe there was a viable used market for low cost computers in > the 50's, they would all have been enormous mainframes. > > To make things a bit more difficult, I believe "personal computer" is a > term that invites trouble. It seems so simple, but when you look at it, > you see that it means ANY computer put to personal use. If you have an > old 360 in the garage you use to balqnce your chequebook, this qualifies > as a personal computer. The term is very open ended and any attempt to > limit it by a specialised definition will likely result in gibberish. A > new term will need to be chosen, especially for earlier, small > individually used pieces of equipment, which is what we are trying to > quantify. > The ham radio or electronic hobbyist would have been more likely building a TV or adapting tube technology to solid state. Another aspect that hasn't been addressed is the change from leased to bought outright. Many mini's were still leased at this time as well as software. This would impact on even the concept of a "personal" computer as well as the problem of what you would do with it. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Apr 23 17:37:15 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were t In-Reply-To: <002701be8d2d$505efe00$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <199904240237.WAA19184@smtp.interlog.com> On 22 Apr 99 at 20:02, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I suspect that few of the readers of this list remember the early '50's as I > do. I wasn't trying to compare or contrast the prices of the antique > computers which were under discussion, but rather point out that few people > would put out a month's pay (gross) for a personal computer, even today. In > the early '50's there were more people, including some professionals, with > less than $300 after taxes (and they were MUCH lower then) than there were > people earning more. There wasn't yet a minimum wage of $1.00 per hour, > and, in fact, when I had a minimum wage job in '60, I earned <$5.00 per > 8-hour day. Naturally a $300 computer wasn't on my list of things to buy. > > Dick > I think you're understating wages a bit in the early 50s . I remember getting $125 for a 55 hr week working as a construction laborer on a summer job in 52, and getting $1.75 an hour as a derrickman in the admittedly highpaying oil-patch in 53. On the other hand I worked as a jr. IBM operator in 55 starting at $35 a week. Office jobs unless you were in management were notoriously underpaid. I was paying $18 a week for rent. At this time the Can $ was equivalent or more than the US$ . I took out a loan from the credit union in order to buy a $125 trumpet. So otherwise your reference to the high price of "hobby " computers is valid. Of course the larger computers (data processors) could only be leased, not bought from companies like IBM and Univac, so even the concept of "owning" a computer would be somewhat ludicrous unless you were an academic with a liberal budget. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Apr 23 17:37:16 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Wang Stuff is avail. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199904240237.WAA19201@smtp.interlog.com> On 23 Apr 99 at 11:09, John Lawson wrote: > > > Right. This morning I got an e-mail release from the company > giving me title free and clear to the Wang VS 7110 system and urging > me to get it the hell out of there, pronto. > > > SO: is there any interest in this system, as previously described > (yesterday) on the List? I will be happy to e-mail the details to > you if you wish. > > I am probably not capable, emotionally, of actually scrapping the > damn thing, as my motive in rescuing it is preservation... anybody > out there want the system? There is no room whatsoever at my place > to store it, save for outside in the elements, and it would > deteriorate rather quickly, even if it is coming up on summer.. > > I can help with delivery within a reasonable radius of Southern > California.... > > Anybody....? > > > Cheerz > > John > There is quite a large body of Wang VS enthusiasts out there, likely the best site would be http://www.hotvs.com/portal/ which has links to other sites with bulletin boards and user groups. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Apr 23 17:37:11 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: DEC In-Reply-To: <199904231923.PAA01429@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> References: <004301be8db1$05f93ae0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from Richard Erlacher at "Apr 23, 1999 11:45: 5 am" Message-ID: <199904240237.WAA19211@smtp.interlog.com> On 23 Apr 99 at 15:23, Bill Pechter wrote: > > You know, there must have been another company using the Digital name that > > put on those pitches my colleagues and I had to attend, which was not > > publicly traded, because that was part of the same spiel, i.e. "that's why > > we're not public . . ." I'm sure I didn't dream that, because my boss was > > usually present and I didn't really like what I was hearing. Is this > > possible? I don't believe a public corporation can have non-public > > subsidiaries. Can it? > > > > Dick > > > DEC was publicly traded back since at least the '60's. > > I think this was someone els. > > Bill > I have a manual for PrintDirecter put out by Digital Products Inc-"the sub-Lan Company" of Watertown, Ma. Was this a division of DEC ? I know there were several companies with Digital in their name. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Apr 23 22:17:21 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Bringing up a old Powersupply In-Reply-To: <199904231939.MAA12905@bart.allegro.com> References: <4.1.19990422222745.00a434b0@mcmanis.com> <"v04020a0fb345b01a43bf(a)(091)192.168.1.2(093)*"@MHS> Message-ID: <4.1.19990423225305.00a9e490@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:39 PM 4/23/99 -0700, ss@allegro.com said something like: >Re: > >> > Is this a good idea? [slow power up] >> >> I'm on the fence about it. On the one hand you will find out if you've got >... >> YES. Especially under load. The thing that often fails in a PSU is the >> filter capacitors and weak ones will show up as ripple and ripple will > >Several friends who collect old radios swear by the VARIAC. They >claim that the old capacitors "dry out", and that running them at, >say, 80 V for a few hours (or a day) rejuvenates them. I've heard >time requirements vary from an hour to a day, unfortunately. Variac is a trademark name for a variable transformer made by the old General Radio Company in MA which came into common usage like the Crescent brand of adjustable wrenches has. Anyway, being an old radio nut, there is much truth in what ss wrote as I've been restoring AC operated radios for just under 30 years. I can send privately some comments I kept from one of my radio email lists in reference to reforming electrolytics and what happens to cause them to fail. Not appropriate on-list as it would actually be off topic. I just have to hunt them up from either the list's archives or mine first. Those comments discuss the technical aspects of how an electrolytic capacitor will literally degrade over time and need to be reformed well during its next power-up. Reforming steps are also discussed. A shorted electrolytic as a result of the dielectric either deteriorating from disuse or even occasionally from just slamming its normal working voltage on it after years of being idle is not too much fun. Rather rare to happen, but trust me, not fun. The computer-grade electrolytics we usually see in our computer gear may not be immune to such failures but I haven't yet seen one yet. Incidentally, as for Crescent wrenches, the original Crescent Tool Company which began here in Jamestown made them. Invented by a Swedish immigrant in 1905 down on Harrison Street just off Brooklyn Square. Crescent was bought by Cooper Group in early 70's and everything hauled down to North Carolina where labor and other costs (especially taxes!) were cheap. Xcelite tools (nutdrivers, screwdrivers, etc.), from nearby Orchard Park (Buffalo suburb), met the same fate a bit earlier. At least Chan-nel-lock (adjustable gripping pliers) from neaby Meadville, PA is still in its home town. Everything headed South from the industrial Northeast during the 70's and 80's it seemed. That's my bit of off-topic info for the day :) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Apr 23 22:22:47 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: DEC In-Reply-To: <199904240237.WAA19211@smtp.interlog.com> from Lawrence Walker at "Apr 23, 1999 10:37:11 pm" Message-ID: <199904240322.XAA02404@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > I have a manual for PrintDirecter put out by Digital Products Inc-"the sub-Lan > Company" of Watertown, Ma. Was this a division of DEC ? I know there were > several companies with Digital in their name. > Digital was a bad name... too often used and too generic. Too bad K.O. didn't allow the company to do business as DEC. I believe Stan Olson was in favor of this at one time. Nah... the great story is people coming to the DEC facility in Nashua to get their DIGITAL clocks and watches fixed. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 23 23:50:18 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: PDP11 Info Posted In-Reply-To: <002901be8df6$400f0530$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: >I just scanned the PDP11/23 and 11/34 pocket guides and posted them in GIF >format at and > > >In you will also find the TD systems Viking >user and technical manuals that I OCR'd but the OCR did not do a good job of >keeping the tables lined up. There are a few GIF's of those important >pages. There is a UDT and a QDT jpg of the boards also. These boards have >been very commonly rebadged with other companies names on them. They are >Qbuss and Unibuss SCSI disk / tape controllers. > >Mixed in are UC0* files (GIF's) that are the important pages from the Emulex >UC07/08 Qbus SCSI manual to set them up also. Zane hopefully will sort them >into their own directories and post the new directory info. On that note ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/ now contains the following: ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/emulex_uc07_08 ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/pdp1124 ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/pdp1134 ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/viking_scsi I _think_ I got the files correctly sorted. If not I'm sure Dan will tell me :^) Before anyone asks, I've been to busy/lazy to get my own domain registered. My thanks again to Eric. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au Fri Apr 23 23:17:13 1999 From: karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au (Karl Maftoum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: More new toys Message-ID: Latest finds: Picked up a nice Motorola MVME chassis + cards (68000), the system works are runs OS-9, still playing with it :-) Anyone got any info on this system? Also 2x Sun3/50's and monitors. Not bad for mornings drive :-) Cheers Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Karl Maftoum Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia Email: k.maftoum@student.canberra.edu.au From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 24 01:12:59 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were t Message-ID: <001801be8e19$94fa22a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> What I do remember, and quite clearly, is that the job I held in summer of '61 there was a sign right next to the washroom saying that the federal minimum wage, of wich there was none in 1952, was 65 cents per hour. In the early '50's people were saving up their bucks for a TV set, because not everybody had one yet. That was much different four or five years later, but for the first couple of years of the Eisenhower administration, things were rather poor, due to the compounded post-war recession. We came to the US in February of '52, and my father had a job engraving plates for bank notes, at which he was considered VERY well paid at $1.25 per hour. He left that job, to everyone's surprise to take a job in Oklahoma City for $1.35 an hour. I don't know what my mother earned as a secretary. Since people were just catching on to TV, if there was a station within range, I doubt anyone really wanted a computer. As I wrote yesterday, when someone said computer, I thought they were talking about my grandfather who held that title at one of the big New York banks. I was just a kid, but still, if computers had caught on the way they did some five to eight years later, people would have known about it and the things might actually have interested someone. Without the games, I doubt more than a hundred were built for personal use or amazement. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Walker To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 8:48 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were t On 22 Apr 99 at 20:02, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I suspect that few of the readers of this list remember the early '50's as I > do. I wasn't trying to compare or contrast the prices of the antique > computers which were under discussion, but rather point out that few people > would put out a month's pay (gross) for a personal computer, even today. In > the early '50's there were more people, including some professionals, with > less than $300 after taxes (and they were MUCH lower then) than there were > people earning more. There wasn't yet a minimum wage of $1.00 per hour, > and, in fact, when I had a minimum wage job in '60, I earned <$5.00 per > 8-hour day. Naturally a $300 computer wasn't on my list of things to buy. > > Dick > I think you're understating wages a bit in the early 50s . I remember getting $125 for a 55 hr week working as a construction laborer on a summer job in 52, and getting $1.75 an hour as a derrickman in the admittedly highpaying oil-patch in 53. On the other hand I worked as a jr. IBM operator in 55 starting at $35 a week. Office jobs unless you were in management were notoriously underpaid. I was paying $18 a week for rent. At this time the Can $ was equivalent or more than the US$ . I took out a loan from the credit union in order to buy a $125 trumpet. So otherwise your reference to the high price of "hobby " computers is valid. Of course the larger computers (data processors) could only be leased, not bought from companies like IBM and Univac, so even the concept of "owning" a computer would be somewhat ludicrous unless you were an academic with a liberal budget. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 24 01:22:59 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: DEC Message-ID: <002701be8e1a$e6cde660$0100c0a8@fuj03> That's the name of the guy! Stan Olson . . . the fellows at that one pitch to which I was referring in my original post on this subject were touting Stan Olson as being so cagey that he kept the gov out of the company's books by selling his wares to the gov through integration contractors so that the folks at the gov could specify DEC without naming them, and the various competing contractors would always decode the RFP to mean DEC and so DEC would win every time. I thought it was clever, if true, but the genius's name was Stan Olson. I worked for a while at a major Government Agency which shall remain nameless . . . Every time I called one of my colleagues to leave a message, his lab partner would ask "are you from Digital?" I interpreted this as being digital, since we were digital systems group in the organization in question, and answered with a resounding YES, being new and underinformed as to the culture. One day at lunch the matter happened to come up and that's when I found out the message my colleague was receiving was causing him to call the DEC salesman. Too bad we haven't a way of pronouncing the case of a letter so people will understand. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 9:34 PM Subject: Re: DEC >> I have a manual for PrintDirecter put out by Digital Products Inc-"the sub-Lan >> Company" of Watertown, Ma. Was this a division of DEC ? I know there were >> several companies with Digital in their name. >> > >Digital was a bad name... too often used and too generic. >Too bad K.O. didn't allow the company to do business as DEC. >I believe Stan Olson was in favor of this at one time. > >Nah... the great story is people coming to the DEC facility in >Nashua to get their DIGITAL clocks and watches fixed. > >Bill > >--- > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, > The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 24 02:51:14 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC") In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990422224644.0105f5a0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, James Willing wrote: > So, do you have a mark-sense reader? Or should I still plan to bring mine? > (never quite ready to give up!) B^} Yes, but mine is an old HP Optical Mark Reader and I've never played with it yet so I don't know what's involved in running it or interfacing with it. Is yours a ScanTron? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 24 02:55:40 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s In-Reply-To: <199904230943.CAA00978@saul5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > You two seem to be confusing built-in video signal generation capabilities > with a built-in video screen. The Apple has the signal capabilities. As > you said, there was no monitor as part of the main unit (and Apple didn't > aggressively put its name on external monitors, at least not before the > //e). Apple introduced the monochrome Monitor /// around the same time it introduced the Apple ///, which was before the //e. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 24 03:00:18 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases In-Reply-To: <000301be8d88$26f965e0$0100a8c0@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > Any ideas on how to remove from the metal case (with damaging the > painted surface underneath) > - Spray paint (numbers) > - Permanent magic marker (more numbers) Gasoline or rubbing alcohol on both counts. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 24 03:05:07 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases In-Reply-To: <199904231419.QAA02486@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > (There has been an Idea of a workshop on Computer cleaning > vor VCF 3.0 - Sallam ?) Yes, this would make for a great workshop. Who wants to take it on? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 24 03:16:24 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <002a01be8da7$c4bf9fa0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > No, Sam, those were not necessarily MY attitudes. I, after all, was only 6 > years old during most of 1952. However, I'd submit that my statement is > more or less correct, inasmuch as most Americans had no idea what a digital > computer was in 1952. My grandfather worked for one of New York's large What does having "no idea what a digital computer was in 1952" have to do with being able to afford one? Can you make an argument and stick to it please? <...> > whatever was the model of the day, and they got the work done. That's what > the average American thought of when you asked him about a computer, though > most didn't really even recognize the word. Ok, thanks for that history but it does nothing to further your argument, nor does it have any relevance to your assertion. > In 1954-55 a friend of my parents bought an airplane for $300. He also > liked those British sports cars, which traded, 2nd-hand for about $300 in > the late '50's, though they were not that "reasonable" by the time I wanted > one (goodness only knows why I wanted it). Oh?? I thought $300 was hardly an amount one could afford to be spending in the 50s! Seems like it wasn't that big of a deal after all. > Back to the attitudes . . . I certainly hope that you don't purport YOUR > attitudes to be typical. I know mine aren't. What brings balance to a > discussion is the presentation of perceptions. No, I'm not so arrogant (or myopic). > One other point . . . I don't know how you can claim to know about what's on > the mind of an "average" American. People who, ten years ago, were rabidly I made no such claim. However, you pretty much DID make such a claim. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Apr 24 03:25:27 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <004f01be8db2$247fc140$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well Hans, there's this saying, a derogatory one directed at California, but > not totally without foundation that "Whenever there's a tremor, all the > loose nuts roll to California." Yeah, and there are plenty of derogatory remarks that can be directed at senior citizens being obnoxious curmudgeons, but they're inappropriate for this forum. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Apr 24 03:54:21 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 24, 99 00:55:40 am Message-ID: <199904240854.BAA24069@saul7.u.washington.edu> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > > you said, there was no monitor as part of the main unit (and Apple didn't > > aggressively put its name on external monitors, at least not before the > > //e). > Apple introduced the monochrome Monitor /// around the same time it > introduced the Apple ///, which was before the //e. I actually knew that because we had a Monitor /// with our ][+, which we got in... 1984? 1985? I have the exact date, but not handy. One of my brother's disks (which is in my closet now) has a HELLO program which proudly declares that "THIS IS A SLAVE DISK INITIALIZED ON [some date, some year]." I think the date is December 31, actually. IIRC I had already started monopolizing the computer and my brother (who was pretty young, about 10) wanted some attention too, so we gave him his disk. Even if my dad did the initialization, I was probably the one who told him how. :) And since December 31 is my mom's birthday, she was undoubtedly irate that we were playing with the dumb computer. That pattern continued pretty solidly for the next several years. My brother's disk eventually got some pirated games stashed on it. :) So I guess I goofed about monitors. There was an Apple-brand color monitor that went with the //e too. -- Derek From cfandt at netsync.net Sat Apr 24 08:15:55 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: More new toys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990424091009.00a8ee60@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 02:17 PM 4/24/99 +1000, Karl Maftoum said something like: > >Latest finds: > >Picked up a nice Motorola MVME chassis + cards (68000), the system works >are runs OS-9, still playing with it :-) Anyone got any info on this >system? Well, for starters tell us what the module designations are (such as MVME122, MVME204-1, MVME400, etc., etc.). The crate may also be marked with something like MVME945 or ? I'm most familiar with Moto's products. What version OS-9? > >Also 2x Sun3/50's and monitors. > >Not bad for mornings drive :-) Wish I could simply drive around in the morning and pickup stuff like this :-) Good haul! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From guerney at uq.net.au Sat Apr 24 09:13:34 1999 From: guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Old computer books? Oh, we shred them! Message-ID: <074301be8e5c$d8409880$ba0664cb@default> Every two years at this time the University of Queensland Alumni Association holds a large sale of old books donated by individuals plus library discards. I've found some good collectables there in the past, such as old manuals, but this time (today) it took me five minutes to just find where the computer books were - instead of a full trestle table top as in previous years, there was just 4 inches of space reserved for them - maybe 20 books in a hall of many many thousands. I found the lady in charge and asked what had happened to them? She said "we kept any computer books dated in the 50's or 60's (I didn't find any), and anything fairly recent, but all donations from the 70's and 80's went out." I asked "Did you send them to one of the charities to sell at their bookfests?". Her response "oh no, they just go straight to the shredder! - we can't get rid of them otherwise." And sadly, I suspect she was correct. Besides the odd character like me looking for manuals for long gone models, most of the stuff that went out for sale was rubbish to 99.99+% of people and stayed on the table at the end of the day. But I sure wish she had at least given me the chance to look through that stuff before it hit the shredder. The good news was that I found amongst the "sets" (encyclopedias etc) a full set (I think, 22 volumes anyway) of the Time-Life series Understanding Computers. Lots of good computer history and pictures - but I would be interested if anyone has any criticism of the facts presented in any of the articles in that series - they seem authoritative enough, but then some of the people on this list know more than the usual sources that Time-Life writers would have used. Phil in Brisbane, Australia. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Sat Apr 24 11:10:26 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s id AA20656; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:48:08 -0400 In-Reply-To: <199904232248.AA20656@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199904241411.QAA17783@horus.mch.sni.de> > The knee is around 75ish when the micro started to gain momentum the next > knee is at 80-81 with a large number of user ready machine stepping up to > the rail. '85 is the next in my mind where the market took a distinct > shift and z80/6502 dominance took a noiceable down turn for the 80286/68k > battle. Jep, but still the question, wheres the difference - we have been talking about the idea if having a 'personal' computer in the 50's, (if available at 1/4th of a year salery) and I can't see any difference to the situation in the 70s - the same group of electonic fascinated people would have taken the chance. The effect is just that there was no such device. > There are more but during that time we would see vendors of quality system > disappear from the noticable market shift. The in 80s one nearly killed > MS (ok it scared them)! :)) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cube at msn.fullfeed.com Sat Apr 24 09:11:18 1999 From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Bringing up a old Powersupply In-Reply-To: References: <199904231606.JAA18144@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <199904241413.JAA08925@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com> At 12:49 AM 4/24/99 +0100, you wrote: >[11/44 PSU] > > >I've had electrolytics in old radios go bad from age, but never in a >computer (yes, I have had caps in computer PSUs fail, but not shortly >after switch-on after extended storage). I guess that these capacitors >are (a) too new to have failed and (b) improvements in capacitor >design/manufacture has given them a longer life anyway. I have. The ones in my PDP-12 were leaky enough that they drew too much current and took out the bridge rectifier. Had to reform them. > >-tony > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection Jay.Jaeger@msn.fullfeed.com visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 24 10:09:18 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <001001be8e64$810c66e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Well, Sellam, it's a question of statistics. The population was about 225 Million back then +/- some number, and the people in the US or even the world who had any notion of what a digital computer was was probably around a hundred, well, maybe a thousand. Now, you started out with an "average" American. Of the thousand or so to whom owning a computer didn't amount to slavery, how many do you think could afford to spend the equivalent of a half-year's groceries, during the period when the word "recession" was invented, on something the maximal function of which was strictly limited in purpose to some form of mental masturbation? They couldn't use the excuse that "we could use it to manage our checking account . . ." or some such, because it wouldn't do that. Do you think the average American could afford to spend that kind of dough on something he didn't need? Do you think he'd have spent the dough on something it probably would have benefitted him NOT to have? . . . like a digital computer toy? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 2:27 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> No, Sam, those were not necessarily MY attitudes. I, after all, was only 6 >> years old during most of 1952. However, I'd submit that my statement is >> more or less correct, inasmuch as most Americans had no idea what a digital >> computer was in 1952. My grandfather worked for one of New York's large > >What does having "no idea what a digital computer was in 1952" have to do >with being able to afford one? Can you make an argument and stick to it >please? > ><...> >> whatever was the model of the day, and they got the work done. That's what >> the average American thought of when you asked him about a computer, though >> most didn't really even recognize the word. > >Ok, thanks for that history but it does nothing to further your argument, >nor does it have any relevance to your assertion. > >> In 1954-55 a friend of my parents bought an airplane for $300. He also >> liked those British sports cars, which traded, 2nd-hand for about $300 in >> the late '50's, though they were not that "reasonable" by the time I wanted >> one (goodness only knows why I wanted it). > >Oh?? I thought $300 was hardly an amount one could afford to be spending >in the 50s! Seems like it wasn't that big of a deal after all. > >> Back to the attitudes . . . I certainly hope that you don't purport YOUR >> attitudes to be typical. I know mine aren't. What brings balance to a >> discussion is the presentation of perceptions. > >No, I'm not so arrogant (or myopic). > >> One other point . . . I don't know how you can claim to know about what's on >> the mind of an "average" American. People who, ten years ago, were rabidly > >I made no such claim. However, you pretty much DID make such a claim. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > From steverob at hotoffice.com Sat Apr 24 10:23:55 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Band Printer Interface References: <199904241411.QAA17783@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <3721E20B.753463CD@hotoffice.com> Group, While digging through a surplus/thrift/junk dealers warehouse, I found an old band printer that looks to be in pretty good condition. Unfortunately, my short term memory isn't very good so the exact make and model escape me. It _may_ have been a "control data 5xxx" but, I'm not sure. The machine is considerably larger than a washing machine and was entirely white in color ( that might help to identify it ). It had an access door in the front with a glass panel insert and another in the rear for loading and unloading the forms. The control panel was on the top of the cabinet on the right side. All the controls were multicolored membrane switch/indicators. Because of the stuff stacked around it, I could not open the electronics bay to see what type connectors it might have. Anyway, the question is: What kind of interface is this thing likely to have? I've been looking for a high speed printer and would like to haul it home and hook it up to one of my minis. But, I'm not gonna bother if I can't easily interface to it. Thanks, Steve Robertson From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Apr 24 10:28:24 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC") In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990422224644.0105f5a0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990424082824.01235ca0@agora.rdrop.com> At 12:51 AM 4/24/99 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, James Willing wrote: > >> So, do you have a mark-sense reader? Or should I still plan to bring mine? >> (never quite ready to give up!) B^} > >Yes, but mine is an old HP Optical Mark Reader and I've never played with >it yet so I don't know what's involved in running it or interfacing with >it. Is yours a ScanTron? Yep. I have a pair of ScanTrons. One is the stand alone quiz grading unit, and the other is the general purpose form (page) scanner. I've also got an HP or two... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 24 10:28:27 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s Message-ID: <002201be8e67$1a51d9a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> I resemble that remark! First of all, my man, I'm not technically a senior citizen . . . yet . . . but I'm practicing. I've always been somewhat obnoxious, and you would know know, I imagine, about the propriety of any remark in this forum, since much of what you publish here would be inappropriate in any forum. I appreciate your choice of words, though. It seems you've got a real chip on your shoulder, Sellam, and I wonder why. If you look at the remark to which you refer in the context from which it was taken, you'd realize that it was quoted in the context that California tends to have an assortment of opinion which goes farther toward the extremes than many less collectively "enlightened" and, perhaps therefore, tolerant, regions of the planet. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 2:34 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Well Hans, there's this saying, a derogatory one directed at California, but >> not totally without foundation that "Whenever there's a tremor, all the >> loose nuts roll to California." > >Yeah, and there are plenty of derogatory remarks that can be directed at >senior citizens being obnoxious curmudgeons, but they're inappropriate for >this forum. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > From max82 at surfree.com Sat Apr 24 10:20:40 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were t In-Reply-To: <199904240237.WAA19149@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: >Naaah, you would have bought a Sax or Trumpet. Or maybe a really cool >Indian Motorcycle. Or chopped and channelled an old model B Ford and put in >a 59A block with a 3/4 cam and dual carbs. A computer ? Only some weird >ultra straight with social problems would be interested and dedicated enough >to go that route. Speaking of which, wasn't the Zuse built on a kitchen table in the mid-30's? Wouldn't that make _it_ the first personal computer? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 24 12:13:05 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: building core Message-ID: <4.1.19990424100855.00a78100@mcmanis.com> Ok, one step closer. The description of core in the PDP-8/a miniprocessor users manual shows the wires going straight through the cores. Is this correct? I'd expect the wire to make one or two turns around the core so that the magnetic field it induced would be "inside" the torroid. Comments? What about driving voltages? I've got a +/- 36v @ 3amps supply here, the PDP-8 uses its 15 volt supplies. I'm building a simply push-pull direct coupled amp out of a couple of transistors to send the signal that Allison drew. I'm using a Parallax BASIC Stamp to generate the waveforms (I could use the HP but then it wouldn't be portable) Sense wire? Straight through the core or also with a wrap? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 24 12:08:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Bringing up a old Powersupply In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990423225305.00a9e490@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Apr 23, 99 11:17:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1772 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990424/0d0b8e9e/attachment.ksh From mark_k at iname.com Sat Apr 24 14:08:19 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Leaky nicad battery Message-ID: Hi, I have an old PC which has a leaky nicad battery soldered to the PCB. There is stuff coming out of the battery, which has corroded the PCB traces near it. This is probably the reason why the machine doesn't work properly. Can anyone recommend an effective method of cleaning off this stuff so that further corrosion does not occur? When it comes to repairing PCB traces, I guess I'll just have to solder some wires in place. -- Mark From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 24 13:28:18 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Leaky nicad battery Message-ID: <000a01be8e80$39cac260$0100c0a8@fuj03> First, desolder the battery. If there's so much residue on the PCB that you feel you need to brush it off, a toothbrush (if you have an old one, else use someone else's) will serve to clear away the glutch. Then, use the toothbrush to scrub the area where the battery was with alcohol. Then apply diswashing soap or some other liquid detergent, and scrub with that, then wash all traces of detergent off the board with hot tap water and remove the water any way you can, avoiding mechanical stress on the board. If you want the board to work properly, you'll have to make some provision for a battery to replace the leaky one. An external arrangement of some sort will serve nicely, but you'll probably have to reconfigure the jumper(s) governing where the battery voltage is to be obtained. External arrangements vary some, so it's up to your ingenuity to figure that out. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mark To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 12:27 PM Subject: Leaky nicad battery >Hi, > >I have an old PC which has a leaky nicad battery soldered to the PCB. There is >stuff coming out of the battery, which has corroded the PCB traces near it. >This is probably the reason why the machine doesn't work properly. > >Can anyone recommend an effective method of cleaning off this stuff so that >further corrosion does not occur? When it comes to repairing PCB traces, I >guess I'll just have to solder some wires in place. > > >-- Mark > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Apr 24 14:00:04 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: DEC In-Reply-To: <002701be8e1a$e6cde660$0100c0a8@fuj03> from Richard Erlacher at "Apr 24, 1999 0:22:59 am" Message-ID: <199904241900.PAA35214@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > That's the name of the guy! Stan Olson . . . the fellows at that one pitch > to which I was referring in my original post on this subject were touting > Stan Olson as being so cagey that he kept the gov out of the company's books > by selling his wares to the gov through integration contractors so that the > folks at the gov could specify DEC without naming them, and the various > competing contractors would always decode the RFP to mean DEC and so DEC > would win every time. I thought it was clever, if true, but the genius's > name was Stan Olson. > No. Stan Olson's Ken Olson's brother and one of the folks who kept pushing the company into things like the VT78 and WPS word processors. He left the company a while back. I think you've got a serious anti DEC bias here. Someone's very misinformed here or (more likely) the sales guy's full of it. Q: How do you tell a computer salesman is lying? A: His lips move. Q: What's the difference between a computer salesman and a used car salesman? A: The used car salesman KNOWS when he's lying. Bill From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 24 14:35:27 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: DEC Message-ID: <000601be8e89$9ba81420$0100c0a8@fuj03> I don't really have an anti-DEC bias. They kept the industry moving forward (which served their interests if no one else's) at a time when the BIG guys didn't really want it to move form mainframes to distributed minis/micros. I did however, back in the days when this happened, have a bias against buying what we could make and sell at a profit, since I was the resident hardware/systems guru. Having come from a circuit design background as opposed to the usual "rack 'em and stack 'em" position assumed by defense/aerospace contractors, I wanted build something which inherently was suited to the task as opposed to buying a bunch of stuff that didn't and then filing, cutting, and gluing until it did. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 1:10 PM Subject: Re: DEC >> That's the name of the guy! Stan Olson . . . the fellows at that one pitch >> to which I was referring in my original post on this subject were touting >> Stan Olson as being so cagey that he kept the gov out of the company's books >> by selling his wares to the gov through integration contractors so that the >> folks at the gov could specify DEC without naming them, and the various >> competing contractors would always decode the RFP to mean DEC and so DEC >> would win every time. I thought it was clever, if true, but the genius's >> name was Stan Olson. > This is actually a very clever and inherently legal way to get around the risk that someone else's product might get introduced into a market you nearly own all for yourself. > >No. Stan Olson's Ken Olson's brother and one of the folks who >kept pushing the company into things like the VT78 and WPS word >processors. He left the company a while back. > Well . . . it COULD have been Ken Olson to whom reference was being made. > >I think you've got a serious anti DEC bias here. > >Someone's very misinformed here or (more likely) the sales guy's full of it. > Well, there were bunches of them swooping down on us . . . the project in question involved about 60 8800's and bunches and bunches of microVaxen with each one. It was many hundreds of the taxpayer's millions that were involved . . . > >Q: How do you tell a computer salesman is lying? >A: His lips move. > >Q: What's the difference between a computer salesman and a used car salesman? >A: The used car salesman KNOWS when he's lying. > >Bill From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 24 16:03:23 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 Power Supply Questions Message-ID: OK, the good news is it didn't blow up when powered on, though did have a few worried minutes till I got smart and got out the console key, and turned it to a on possition :^) I just got done measuring the voltages and if I'm reading the manuals correctly the voltage levels are within limits. Flexprint Cable: +5.37V P1 Connector Pins Voltage Overvoltage Limit (according to BA11-A manual) 1-10 +5.05 +6.5 11-16 +11.92 +15.0 17,18 -11.91 -15.0 25,27 -14.97 -18.0 26,28 +15.11 +18.0 However the following pins seem reversed 23 GND SENSE 24 +5 SENSE I get nothing on the +5 SENSE, but I get +5.24V on the GND SENSE. What is up with that?!?!?! I'm possitive that I'm not the one that is reversed as I checked this several times. The voltages all are under the overvoltage limit, so I assume I'm OK on that note. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 24 16:08:50 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 Boot ROMS Message-ID: I've identified that I've got boot ROMS for the following 751A9 RL01 765A9 TU58 757A9 TU16,45,77,TE16 767A9 <-What is this one, the manual doesn't list it. I assume that I can boot RL02's with the RL01 ROMS. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Apr 24 15:21:00 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Bringing up a old Powersupply In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 24, 99 06:08:31 pm Message-ID: <199904242021.NAA27382@fraser.sfu.ca> > Another failure mode is that it will stand the applied voltage for a time > (a few minutes, or so) and then the thinned oxide film will break down, > and the thing will short. I have seen this happen, and it's nasty because > the capacitor tests fine to start with. About ten years ago, I was using a 2 metre amateur radio power amplifier, that had been in storage for a few years. It ran fine for several days of intermittent use, but one quiet Sunday morning, as I was excitedly working another amateur station via the moon (this was EME operation where both hams use the surface of the moon as a passive reflector), two electrolytics in the amp's power supply exploded, sending a fireball and thousands of pieces of paper dielectric through the top of the amp and into my ham shack. Needless to say, the breakers tripped, and my contact was over. My wife heard the explosion, came to the hallway, and asked "what was that??" She still tells friends of my calm reply "Can you bring the fire extinguisher up here, please?". That afternoon, with a $5 expenditure on new electrolytics, the amp was operational again. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From danburrows at mindspring.com Sat Apr 24 15:17:44 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 Boot ROMS Message-ID: <010f01be8e90$9c2f8f70$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >I've identified that I've got boot ROMS for the following > >751A9 RL01 >765A9 TU58 >757A9 TU16,45,77,TE16 >767A9 <-What is this one, the manual doesn't list it. The DU rom Add 23-E39-A9 to your manual also. MU ROM > >I assume that I can boot RL02's with the RL01 ROMS. Yes I may want to talk you out of a copy of the 765A9. I don't have that one. Dan From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 24 15:36:28 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 Boot ROMS Message-ID: <990424163628.20c00e5b@trailing-edge.com> >I've identified that I've got boot ROMS for the following > >751A9 RL01 >765A9 TU58 >757A9 TU16,45,77,TE16 >767A9 <-What is this one, the manual doesn't list it. The 767A9 is the UDA50 (and other third-party-MSCP-emulating board) bootstrap. >I assume that I can boot RL02's with the RL01 ROMS. Yes. In case you're looking for a list of boot ROM's, see: http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/1144.boot.roms Tim. From review at RyansPC.ryanspc.com Sat Apr 24 16:54:07 1999 From: review at RyansPC.ryanspc.com (Tim Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: Semi-ot/Semi-odd game requrest Message-ID: Hi. I've been thinking about asking this for a while, but never got around to it. When I moved, some of the floppies that were in my possession seemingly disappeared/didn't get shipped. In any case, I don't have them anymore. Most of the data was just personal stuff and/or backups, but there were two things in particular that I've permanently lost (both origonals and backups were together, as I didn't think of them getting stolen, but instead infected/defective) were Sid Meier's Civilization I from Microprose, the origional PC edition, as well as the origional PC edition of Castles I from (IIRC) Interplay. I have all applicable documentaiton, as well as a liscense, but just not the software. Would anyone be willing to either make copies of the disks or to email a compressed (either zip or .tgz or .tar.gz would be preferable) copy of the disks? For floppies, I'd be willing to pay the cost of floppies and mailing to Wash., DC, USA, however, the Internet method would probably be better. Also, if anyone knows a used software store where I could get a copy, htat'd also work out. Please eMail me privately at tim@thereviewguide.com. Thanks a billion, Tim D. Hotze From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 24 17:03:23 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:33 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s id AA20486; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:47:56 -0400 Message-ID: <199904242203.AA06890@world.std.com> <(if available at 1/4th of a year salery) and I can't see any < I have a manual for PrintDirecter put out by Digital Products Inc-"the sub < The ham radio or electronic hobbyist would have been more likely building Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990424135114.2fdf1d0a@earthlink.net> Hi Chuck and all, At 10:13 AM 4/24/99 -0700, you wrote: >Ok, one step closer. The description of core in the PDP-8/a miniprocessor >users manual shows the wires going straight through the cores. Is this >correct? I'd expect the wire to make one or two turns around the core so >that the magnetic field it induced would be "inside" the torroid. Comments? > Yes, the wires went straight through. With a closed circuit (driver circuits) this is one turn anound the core. More turns would require less current, but would be much harder to make. Look at the picture at: http://www.wins.uva.nl/faculteit/museum/CoreMemory.html and imagine if the wires had to make loops around each core. >What about driving voltages? I've got a +/- 36v @ 3amps supply here, the >PDP-8 uses its 15 volt supplies. I'm building a simply push-pull direct >coupled amp out of a couple of transistors to send the signal that Allison >drew. I'm using a Parallax BASIC Stamp to generate the waveforms (I could >use the HP but then it wouldn't be portable) It's the current that's important, the driver circuits would obviously require some voltage to deliver that current. Maybe someone could give the write currents for some example core, I haven't had a chance to read any spec's. > >Sense wire? Straight through the core or also with a wrap? Straght through, but usually the 45 deg. wires for less capacitive coupling to the driver wires. Remember that a "read" is a write + sense + possibly another write if the core was switched to switch it back. I don't know if this logic was taken care by the core subsystem or integrated into the CPU cycles, for any particular computer. -Dave > >--Chuck > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 24 17:36:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 Power Supply Questions In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 24, 99 01:03:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1468 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990424/ced929f5/attachment.ksh From gregorym at cadvision.com Sat Apr 24 18:00:54 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: RARE: Original Macintosh found!! Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990424170053.00693c38@cadvision.com> Just kidding, but I am looking for some info. I found a good condition 128K Mac at a sale today, with most of the original packaging and materials. I'd like to know if anything's missing, other than the original packing box for the system unit itself. I'd like to have a complete set of Mac Ver. 1 materials. What I have is: -the original boxes for the mouse and keyboard, with stylized colour paintings of a mouse and keyboard on the boxes. -a plastic box with the word Macintosh at the upper left, and a stylized Apple at the lower right. It contains a Mac System Disk, a disk Guided Tour to the Mac, an audio cassette Guided Tour, a "Programmers Button" option, several Apple computer stickers, several Apple disk labels, a Macintosh manual, and power cord. -a MacWrite/MacPaint box, with a MacWrite/MacPaint disk, a disk Guided Tour to MacWrite/MacPaint, an audiotape Guided Tour, and a MacWrite manual. Should there be a separate MacPaint manual as well? Any help would be much appreciated. Mark. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 24 19:09:25 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 Power Supply Questions In-Reply-To: References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 24, 99 01:03:23 pm Message-ID: >Uh-Oh. According to my printset, 26,28 is the -15V rail and 25,27 is the >+15V rail. These voltages all look fine apart from that. > >> >> However the following pins seem reversed >> 23 GND SENSE >> 24 +5 SENSE >> I get nothing on the +5 SENSE, but I get +5.24V on the GND SENSE. What is >> up with that?!?!?! I'm possitive that I'm not the one that is reversed as >> I checked this several times. > >It appears you've looked at the connector backwards (I've checked the >prints, and 23 is the 0V sense, 24 the +5V sense). > >I think the odd-numbered pins are towards the front of the machine, if >that helps. > >-tony Thanks! I think this answers my question. Since I used the "PDP-11/44 System Technical Manual" to do this, and went with the numbers based on what I saw on 26,28 and 25,27 it looks like the manual is backwards on those two, which meant I was backwards on 23 and 24. I just powered it up with the CPU, cache, and 1Mb of RAM in place. Once I figured out the correct console settings everything looks good. It passes the console diagnostics! So now I'm plotting my next step. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 24 18:24:13 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 Power Supply Questions In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 24, 99 04:09:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 841 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990425/adfd5161/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Apr 24 19:18:43 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: RARE: Original Macintosh found!! Message-ID: <16a28f01.2453b963@aol.com> In a message dated 99-04-24 19:02:39 EDT, you write: > Just kidding, but I am looking for some info. I found a good condition 128K > Mac at a sale today, with most of the original packaging and materials. I'd > like to know if anything's missing, other than the original packing box for > the system unit itself. I'd like to have a complete set of Mac Ver. 1 > materials. What I have is: sounds like you have everything and even more than what i got with my 128k system i bought. I didnt get a audiotape with mine. should be manuals for macwrite and macpaint though. Be on the lookout for dodgy video due to that infamous cold solder joint problem. My machine has it. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 24 19:28:55 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: Chrislin Industries Message-ID: <4.1.19990424171835.00a7ad90@mcmanis.com> I've got disk box, 19" rack mount, that is labelled Chrislin Industries. Inside is an SA612 hard disk labelled DL0: on the front, and two 8" floppies (NEC floppies) labelled DY0: and DY1: on the left. (horizontal mount). Inside the box is a PC board that takes a 50pin connector (labelled "Controller") and has connectors labelled WINC0, WINC1, 5" FLOPPY, 8" FLOPPY, and WINCHESTER. This is the zillion dollar question, it looks as if this box could be plugged into an RQDX3 and emulate two RX02 and an RLxx. Or, it could plug into some CI controller that did its own emulation. My "Microcomputers and Memory" handbooks lists on the back the following boards for an 11/23 in a BA11-N #0 KDF11-AA #1 MSV11-DD #2 MSV11-DD #3 DLV11-J #4 spare #5 spare #6 spare #7 spare #8 BDV11-AA My question is if I stuck the RQDX3 in slot 4 would it work? If I found a copy of RSX-11M could I boot it on this system (128KB of memory) how about RT-11? Do I need the BDV11 if I have the RQDX3 ? --Chuck From at258 at osfn.org Sat Apr 24 19:29:58 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s id AA20656; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:48:08 -0400 In-Reply-To: <199904242203.AA07122@world.std.com> Message-ID: On other point: Do you have any idea how many computers there were in 1952? Or their cost? On Sat, 24 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > <(if available at 1/4th of a year salery) and I can't see any > < > > And ther ewas more importantly no concept of having/building one outside of > university circles (how did they do it!). > > Allison > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 24 19:53:37 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: Chrislin Industries Message-ID: <990424205337.20c00e5b@trailing-edge.com> >I've got disk box, 19" rack mount, that is labelled Chrislin Industries. >Inside is an SA612 hard disk labelled DL0: on the front, and two 8" >floppies (NEC floppies) labelled DY0: and DY1: on the left. (horizontal >mount). Inside the box is a PC board that takes a 50pin connector (labelled >"Controller") and has connectors labelled WINC0, WINC1, 5" FLOPPY, 8" >FLOPPY, and WINCHESTER. This is a box that works with a Chrislin Industries Q-bus controller. >This is the zillion dollar question, it looks as if this box could be >plugged into an RQDX3 and emulate two RX02 and an RLxx. Nope. > Or, it could plug >into some CI controller that did its own emulation. Yep, the Chrislin controller does RX02 emulation and RL02 emulation. Most also had a small bipolar boot ROM on it. >My "Microcomputers and Memory" handbooks lists on the back the following >boards for an 11/23 in a BA11-N >#0 KDF11-AA >#1 MSV11-DD >#2 MSV11-DD >#3 DLV11-J >#4 spare >#5 spare >#6 spare >#7 spare >#8 BDV11-AA > >My question is if I stuck the RQDX3 in slot 4 would it work? The RQDX3 will work, but it won't talk to your Chrislin industries box. There's a 50-pin to 34-and-20-pin breakout board you need to hook floppy drives and MFM drives to a RQDX3. In a BA23, the breakout board resided in between the card cage and the drive bays; in a BA123 there was a breakout board, with a Q-bus form factor, that plugged into the "dummy" Q-bus slots at the front of the backplane; in a BA11N-type box, the breakout usually resided in the Leprechaun box that holds the MFM or floppy drive. > If I found a >copy of RSX-11M could I boot it on this system (128KB of memory) Sure. You need the drive, of course... and installing RSX from floppy is just plain cruel (about as convenient as the Wagner Ring Cycle on 45's...) > how about >RT-11? Sure, again you need media and matching drive.... > Do I need the BDV11 if I have the RQDX3 ? No. The official rules for when you need a terminator in a box and when you don't need one are in Micronote #29, "Q-bus Expansion Concepts", available from http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/micronotes Keep in mind that you won't have a MSCP bootstrap in this system, meaning you'll have to use console ODT to put the MSCP bootstrap in for each cold boot you do. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 24 20:06:32 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: Chrislin Industries Message-ID: <001401be8eb7$dbf6da60$0100c0a8@fuj03> Have you visited www.chrislin.com ? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 6:30 PM Subject: Chrislin Industries >I've got disk box, 19" rack mount, that is labelled Chrislin Industries. >Inside is an SA612 hard disk labelled DL0: on the front, and two 8" >floppies (NEC floppies) labelled DY0: and DY1: on the left. (horizontal >mount). Inside the box is a PC board that takes a 50pin connector (labelled >"Controller") and has connectors labelled WINC0, WINC1, 5" FLOPPY, 8" >FLOPPY, and WINCHESTER. > >This is the zillion dollar question, it looks as if this box could be >plugged into an RQDX3 and emulate two RX02 and an RLxx. Or, it could plug >into some CI controller that did its own emulation. > >My "Microcomputers and Memory" handbooks lists on the back the following >boards for an 11/23 in a BA11-N >#0 KDF11-AA >#1 MSV11-DD >#2 MSV11-DD >#3 DLV11-J >#4 spare >#5 spare >#6 spare >#7 spare >#8 BDV11-AA > >My question is if I stuck the RQDX3 in slot 4 would it work? If I found a >copy of RSX-11M could I boot it on this system (128KB of memory) how about >RT-11? Do I need the BDV11 if I have the RQDX3 ? > >--Chuck > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 24 21:10:37 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: Chrislin Industries In-Reply-To: <001401be8eb7$dbf6da60$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <4.1.19990424191012.00b1d860@mcmanis.com> At 07:06 PM 4/24/99 -0600, you wrote: >Have you visited www.chrislin.com ? Of course, and if VME is my bag their great. No one home to answer Qbus questions. From djenner at halcyon.com Sat Apr 24 21:25:24 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: RARE: Original Macintosh found!! References: <3.0.32.19990424170053.00693c38@cadvision.com> Message-ID: <37227D14.F4FFEE2C@halcyon.com> In fact there should be a MacPaint manual. The first edition was printed on an Imagewriter and has the Apple logo in the lower right corner. A slightly later (although with the same 1983 copyright date) version was printed on a Laserwriter and has the logo in the upper left corner. Dave Mark Gregory wrote: > > Just kidding, but I am looking for some info. I found a good condition 128K > Mac at a sale today, with most of the original packaging and materials. I'd > like to know if anything's missing, other than the original packing box for > the system unit itself. I'd like to have a complete set of Mac Ver. 1 > materials. What I have is: > > -the original boxes for the mouse and keyboard, with stylized colour > paintings of a mouse and keyboard on the boxes. > > -a plastic box with the word Macintosh at the upper left, and a stylized > Apple at the lower right. It contains a Mac System Disk, a disk Guided Tour > to the Mac, an audio cassette Guided Tour, a "Programmers Button" option, > several Apple computer stickers, several Apple disk labels, a Macintosh > manual, and power cord. > > -a MacWrite/MacPaint box, with a MacWrite/MacPaint disk, a disk Guided Tour > to MacWrite/MacPaint, an audiotape Guided Tour, and a MacWrite manual. > Should there be a separate MacPaint manual as well? > > Any help would be much appreciated. > > Mark. From mbg at world.std.com Sat Apr 24 22:10:14 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: Chrislin Industries Message-ID: <199904250310.AA01642@world.std.com> >My question is if I stuck the RQDX3 in slot 4 would it work? If I found a >copy of RSX-11M could I boot it on this system (128KB of memory) how >about RT-11? Do I need the BDV11 if I have the RQDX3 ? The RQDX3 is only the controller, it doesn't have any boot code on it. If your BDV has the boot code for an MSCP disk, then it should just work. If not, you'll need to get some... One point, the RQDX3 was not supported until V5.3 of RT-11. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sat Apr 24 22:23:59 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: Saving BIG OLD Iron... Message-ID: <199904250323.AA12012@world.std.com> The first part of the effort has been a success... we had about 8 people show up today to load the KS10 systems and their disks and tapes (and printers, and some terminals, and documentation and printsets) into two trucks... one going up to New Hampshire and one going down to Rhode Island. It turns out that we were unable to lock down the head carriages on the RP06 drives, and I know we're taking a little risk because of it, but we did not have the procedure available in the manuals we referred to. What little we did find led us to believe that there were parts required (removed at the time of installation) which the site no longer had... Anyway, it all got loaded. Tomorrow some of use will unload the truck which went to Rhode Island... One of the things I found out about the systems is that they were apparently the last set of decsystem-10s in active commercial in the new england region. One of the machines is an ADP onsite machine. It has a modified front panel which can apparently display the number of local and remote users, the %utilization of the machine, and two other displays which can be selected as to what they display. It is an LCD display which appears to have been cracked at some point, so it may take some work to make it work again. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ p.s. Anyone have any information on the ADP onsite modifications which might have been standard? From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 24 22:50:48 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s id AA20656; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:48:08 -0400 Message-ID: <199904250350.AA28871@world.std.com> Ok, I'm getting to the point where I can _almost_ start taking pictures of the waveforms on the oscilloscope. Now, if you are wondering, this does have a point. I've got a 4K core stack for a PDP-8 that I've been loath to get into because I didn't feel I had a strong enough understanding of the basics in order to figure out just what the heck was wrong with it, once this project is complete and I understand core memory, theory and operation, I'll be ready to tackle fixing that stack. I've been reading and re-reading the theory section in the PDP-8a manual and some parts are starting to seep into my consciousness. This is where we are at. 1) I'm using copper clad board to provide a ground plane "under" the core. After my last message it became obvious that this was the other half of the winding "through" the core. 2) I'm using "magnet" wire (enameled copper wire) for the core wire. I'm guessing it can take a couple of amps for a short period of time. I'm not sure that is sufficent to "switch" the #2 nut I'm using but we'll see. 3) Allison referenced a waveform that looked like this: +--+ | | | | ----------+ +-------------+ +--------- Gnd | | | | +--+ Now in the ToO section in the manual it was written that the first pulse "reads" the core, and the second pulse "writes" the core. A light bulb went on because of course core is "destructively" read, and has to be rewritten. 4) The diagram in the 8a manual shows the sense wires going through one set of cores, looping and coming back through another set. The sense wire is also used as the 'inhibit' wire when one wants to write a zero. This is done by reversing the X or Y current so that the selected cores don't get full write current (and thus don't switch.) 5) So this is the plan: put three wires through the nut and wire them up as follows: -- 1/h select ----------\ | | /----- GND 1/h select ---------------| |-------------- GND sense + ----------/ | | \----- sense - The scope will display the current on the select lines on channel 1 the sense lines on channel 2 (floating ground) 6) When the current is sufficient, I should see a pulse on the sense line. (This is the hypothesis part, now to apply the scientific method) We'll see ... if there are obvious errors in the above please let me know! --Chuck -- From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 25 00:54:47 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: It's Alive!!! Message-ID: Wow!!! I think I just smoked the power distribution unit on the RL02 rack, but I just booted RT-11 V4 on the PDP-11/44! It is Alive!!! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From gene at ehrich.com Sun Apr 25 07:20:49 1999 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: Thinkpad 500 Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: <199904221725.MAA09414@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19990425082001.0099b020@popmail.voicenet.com> Does anybody have one or know where I can get one? gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale Gene Ehrich PO Box 209 Marlton NJ 08053-0209 From at258 at osfn.org Sun Apr 25 07:50:04 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s id AA20656; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:48:08 -0400 In-Reply-To: <199904250350.AA28871@world.std.com> Message-ID: I think what they don't realise is that computers at this point had names, not numbers. 20 is probably quite close. I know there's a site that catalogues them. I think at this point, the firts generation IBM 600's hadn't been been built yet, although they have been in planning. On Sat, 24 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > <1952? Or their cost? > > I do, do they? I think a number totaling under 20 would be about right. > the volume of computers were about to increase around '52 but the next > production step was the transistor machines. > > > Allison > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Apr 25 08:51:01 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: Thinkpad 500 Power Supply Message-ID: <2b27eb0.245477c5@aol.com> how bad do you need it? IBM still stocks it. www.direct.ibm.com/ In a message dated 4/25/99 7:22:21 AM US Eastern Standard Time, gene@ehrich.com writes: > Does anybody have one or know where I can get one? > > gene@ehrich > http://www.voicenet.com/~generic > Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 25 09:15:00 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: Building Core, Stage 2 Message-ID: <199904251415.AA02521@world.std.com> <1) I'm using copper clad board to provide a ground plane "under" the core. >Wow!!! I think I just smoked the power distribution unit on the RL02 >rack, but I just booted RT-11 V4 on the PDP-11/44! It is Alive!!! Congrats on booting! Sorry the PS smoked... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 25 10:25:14 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s id AA20656; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:48:08 -0400 Message-ID: <199904251525.AA05344@world.std.com> >Wow!!! I think I just smoked the power distribution unit on the RL02 >rack, but I just booted RT-11 V4 on the PDP-11/44! It is Alive!!! Good! Why do you say you smoked the power distribution box? Is it buzzing loudly, by any chance? This is usually a sign of a bad capacitor in the relay/contactor power supply, and is easily repaired. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 25 11:48:49 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and who thinks that they remember the 50s In-Reply-To: <199904251525.AA05344@world.std.com> Message-ID: > The watershed event was the forcasting of an election with a computer on > TV. That would bring the idea of a computer from the labratory to something > people could relate to. Did they learn anything from Dewey? From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 25 12:53:44 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: It's Alive!!! In-Reply-To: <199904251503.AA23148@world.std.com> Message-ID: >>Wow!!! I think I just smoked the power distribution unit on the RL02 >>rack, but I just booted RT-11 V4 on the PDP-11/44! It is Alive!!! > >Congrats on booting! Sorry the PS smoked... Thanks, but it wasn't the power supply, just the distribution panel at the bottom of the rack. Plugged the RL02 into the Surge Supressor I've got the VT420 plugged into and everything worked fine. Oh, and don't worry, the VT420 is only for testing purposes, I've got VT100's and a DECwriter II for the PDP-11/44 :^) Although the DECwriter II will take some serious work before it's usable. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 25 13:06:16 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: It's Alive!!! In-Reply-To: <990425112822.20c00e5b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >>Wow!!! I think I just smoked the power distribution unit on the RL02 >>rack, but I just booted RT-11 V4 on the PDP-11/44! It is Alive!!! > >Good! Why do you say you smoked the power distribution box? Is it >buzzing loudly, by any chance? This is usually a sign of a bad >capacitor in the relay/contactor power supply, and is easily repaired. No, it's really wierd. I smelled smoke, at which point I started worrying, and then realized the RL02 wasn't spun up, so I figured that was it. Then I noticed the breaker on the back of the RL02 was tripped, so I switched it back on, it started to spin up, and it tripped again. Plugged it into the surge supressor, and it worked. I didn't notice any load buzzing, but then with the way stuff is arranged at the moment for testing, I probably wouldn't, unless it was REALLY loud. Now that I think about it one odd thing is, if the Power Distribution Unit does have problems it should have tripped the surge supressor, since I'd plugged it into the surge supressor. Guess maybe I should go safety check it, something just doesn't sound right. At least I remember that much about checking out electrical equipment. Oh, feel free to call my troubleshooting proceedures last night crazy (I realize it was pretty stupid), but I figured any damage was already done. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From go at ao.com Sun Apr 25 12:18:34 1999 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s id AA20656; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:48:08 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <199904242203.AA07122@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990425101213.03849ab0@office.ao.com> At 08:29 PM 4/24/99 -0400, you wrote: >On other point: Do you have any idea how many computers there were in >1952? Or their cost? Although it isn't a census, a good list of implementations can be found at http://www.digiweb.com/~hansp/ccc/ This list is fairly complete as far as I can tell. It even has listed a computer that was built, and not well publiscised, at Oregon State in the mid 60's (Nebula.) The author was definitely thorough. By my count, there were around 50 "systems" produced before 1952, but the Univac I and Leo were listed as being born in that era, so you'd have to know the extent of the "installed base" to get a real census. Gary > >On Sat, 24 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > >> <(if available at 1/4th of a year salery) and I can't see any >> > > < >> > >> And ther ewas more importantly no concept of having/building one outside of >> university circles (how did they do it!). >> >> Allison >> >> > >M. K. Peirce >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. >215 Shady Lea Road, >North Kingstown, RI 02852 > >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 25 12:45:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: It's Alive!!! In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 24, 99 09:54:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 801 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990425/0cdaca71/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 25 14:31:15 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: Old computer books? Oh, we shred them! In-Reply-To: <074301be8e5c$d8409880$ba0664cb@default> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Apr 1999, Phil Guerney wrote: > The good news was that I found amongst the "sets" (encyclopedias etc) a full > set (I think, 22 volumes anyway) of the Time-Life series Understanding 22 volumes? The complete set is only 7 volumes. > Computers. Lots of good computer history and pictures - but I would be > interested if anyone has any criticism of the facts presented in any of the > articles in that series - they seem authoritative enough, but then some of > the people on this list know more than the usual sources that Time-Life > writers would have used. They're good enough for teaching the complete neophyte the basics of computer science. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Apr 25 14:50:23 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s In-Reply-To: <001001be8e64$810c66e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well, Sellam, it's a question of statistics. The population was about 225 > Million back then +/- some number, and the people in the US or even the > world who had any notion of what a digital computer was was probably around > a hundred, well, maybe a thousand. Now, you started out with an "average" > American. Of the thousand or so to whom owning a computer didn't amount to > slavery, how many do you think could afford to spend the equivalent of a > half-year's groceries, during the period when the word "recession" was > invented, on something the maximal function of which was strictly limited in > purpose to some form of mental masturbation? They couldn't use the excuse > that "we could use it to manage our checking account . . ." or some such, > because it wouldn't do that. Do you think the average American could afford > to spend that kind of dough on something he didn't need? Do you think he'd > have spent the dough on something it probably would have benefitted him NOT > to have? . . . like a digital computer toy? Yes. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 25 16:27:23 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: It's Alive!!! In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: Message-ID: <19990425212723.8542.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Wow!!! I think I just smoked the power distribution unit on the RL02 rack, Well, you have to tell us how you did that, so we don't do it also. > but I just booted RT-11 V4 on the PDP-11/44! It is Alive!!! Congratulations! From marvin at rain.org Sun Apr 25 16:41:10 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: TWR Swap Meet References: Message-ID: <37238BF6.3C1D6E99@rain.org> Several of us got together at John's selling spots at TRW and used that for "command control". The day was really comfortable, and we looked all over for cmoputer related bargains. Towards the end, I was wandering around and ran across a Multitech Micro-Professor MPF-1P for $10 that was still in the box and only missing a ribbon cable to connect the processor board to the printer board. For anyone interested, there pictures of it are at: http://www.rain.org/~marvin/mpf-ip1.jpg http://www.rain.org/~marvin/mpf-ip2.jpg http://www.rain.org/~marvin/mpf-ip3.jpg Apparently several accessory cards are available including an EPROM burner, and a speech card. The only one that came with this unit was the thermal printer. I'll leave it to the others to describe what they found there. After the meet was over, we headed out to lunch to get more comfortable and discuss VCF 3.0, computer collecting, ebay, and other interesting topics! After lunch, we went over to Johns to check out his collection. Having a wall of racks containing computers and peripherals is a really neat thing to see. Since John is fast running out of space, I volunteered to remove parts of the collection for him to give him more room. But he felt that the Imsai and others felt at home there, and as much as he wanted the additional room, felt that it would be unfair to the computers to just transplant them without any warning. But, as I told him, this was something I would only volunteer to do for a friend. Sam fired up the MPF-IP up and it seemed to work just fine. After that, John fired up part of his wall of computers. There is something fascinating about watching a tape drive go through its contortions when loading programs! At this point, I had to leave. It really was a fun day and I am looking forward to the next one! From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Apr 25 17:34:52 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: Pictures of my damaged core Message-ID: <19990425223452.27550.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> I finally borrowed a digital camera to photograph the damage to my PDP-8/L parity core stack. The damage is more extensive than I remember. There are the two main areas, but in addition, there are single bits that are missing here and there over the entire area. I do not think it is possible to repair this board without rewiring at least the four core mats on this PCB in toto... that's 128x128 cores for the folks keeping score at home. The wire density is approx 32 per inch. Much work. I won't be doing this anytime soon. Here's some photos of that stack I got back in '82 with a partial PDP-8/L http://www.infinet.com/~erd/retrcomputing/pdp8/pix/coreassy.jpg - external view http://www.infinet.com/~erd/retrcomputing/pdp8/pix/coremat1.jpg - one bad mat http://www.infinet.com/~erd/retrcomputing/pdp8/pix/coremat2.jpg - another one Thanks for all the responses to my original questions. I'm somewhat gratified to see that the can of worms that this thread opened has been strangely on topic. I'm especially interested in hearing the results of the #2 nut core, if it's suitable for display purposes. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From mbg at world.std.com Sun Apr 25 17:41:20 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: It's Alive!!! Message-ID: <199904252241.AA06084@world.std.com> >Oh, and don't worry, the VT420 is only for testing purposes, I've got >VT100's and a DECwriter II for the PDP-11/44 :^) Although the DECwriter >II will take some serious work before it's usable. I know what you mean... although the KS10s we got the other day had video terminals for the console, we also got a true LA36 in order to have that is a more traditional console for such an old beast... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Apr 25 17:43:34 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: Pictures of my damaged core Message-ID: <19990425224334.28604.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> Not to follow up my post with another post, but I found a typo (and I suspect some of you did, too) --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > Here's some photos of that stack I got back in '82 with a partial PDP-8/L http://www.infinet.com/~erd/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coreassy.jpg - external view http://www.infinet.com/~erd/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coremat1.jpg - one bad mat http://www.infinet.com/~erd/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coremat2.jpg - another one Sorry for the inconvenience. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From mbg at world.std.com Sun Apr 25 17:43:39 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: It's Alive!!! Message-ID: <199904252243.AA07576@world.std.com> >No, it's really wierd. I smelled smoke, at which point I started >worrying, and then realized the RL02 wasn't spun up, so I figured that >was it. Then I noticed the breaker on the back of the RL02 was tripped, >so I switched it back on, it started to spin up, and it tripped again. >Plugged it into the surge supressor, and it worked. I didn't notice any >load buzzing, but then with the way stuff is arranged at the moment for >testing, I probably wouldn't, unless it was REALLY loud. Just to let you know... when the RLs are powered on, there is about a 10 second or so period in which they sound like they might be buzzing... the motor is turning very slowly during that time. After it does this, you should hear a click as the buzzing stops and the cover interlock disengages. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sun Apr 25 18:07:12 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: Wanted: PC-4 thermal printer Message-ID: <199904252307.TAA09700@platy.cs.unc.edu> I got this note, seems this guy saw the Rescue Squad web page, but isn't generally interested in classic computers; he just wants one specific part. If you can help him out, kindly reply directly to him. Gracias, Bill. ] Name Steve King ] E-mail address sfjk1@usaf.net (delete 2 f's) ] State Florida ] Computers of interest Radio Shack TRS-80 Model PC-4 "Pocket Computer" ] Note I am looking for the thermal printer, ] in working order. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sun Apr 25 18:32:46 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC"... Message-ID: <199904252332.TAA09815@platy.cs.unc.edu> This not only makes it the first home computer, but the first kitchen computer as well! Didn't Honeywell try to market a kitchen computer in the late 70's or early 80's? I'm sure it would have taken off, if only they had been the first. :-) But, sadly, without internal video circuitry, it can't be a personal computer. :-) Bill. On Sat, 24 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote: ] ... ] Speaking of which, wasn't the Zuse built on a kitchen table in the ] mid-30's? Wouldn't that make _it_ the first personal computer? From mbg at world.std.com Sun Apr 25 18:43:56 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: PC question Message-ID: <199904252343.AA10543@world.std.com> Yesterday, at the KS10 move, I came away with two IBM PCs, but I don't know enough about them to know if they are the AT or XT models... they both have a 5.25" floppy and a hard drive, and both have color monitors. They are both desktop boxes... the monitors were sitting on top of them. So, how do I tell... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mikeford at netwiz.net Sun Apr 25 18:57:35 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: RARE: Original Macintosh found!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990424170053.00693c38@cadvision.com> Message-ID: >Just kidding, but I am looking for some info. I found a good condition 128K >Mac at a sale today, with most of the original packaging and materials. I'd If it says 128k, its not the first Macintosh, which was just labeled Macintosh. The 128k marking didn't come out until later models were released to differentiate it. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 25 19:06:56 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: PC question Message-ID: <001201be8f78$b3074c40$0100c0a8@fuj03> If they are IBM boxes, then the shape will give that away. If the box has a sloped front, then it's an XT. If the floppy is a full-height drive, it's an XT, and if you look inside it will be really obvious, in that the XT motherboard is confined to the area to the left (as you face the front of the box) of the power supply. Most obvious of all, of course, is the fact that the XT had no 16-bit slots in the motherboard. XT-types generally had a floppy controller and a separate hard disk controller. The AT had a single controller for both. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 25, 1999 5:55 PM Subject: PC question > >Yesterday, at the KS10 move, I came away with two IBM PCs, but I >don't know enough about them to know if they are the AT or XT >models... they both have a 5.25" floppy and a hard drive, and >both have color monitors. > >They are both desktop boxes... the monitors were sitting on top >of them. > >So, how do I tell... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 25 19:34:50 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: PC question Message-ID: <199904260034.AA08174@world.std.com> from Megan at "Apr 25, 1999 7:43:56 pm" Message-ID: <199904260046.UAA39986@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > > Yesterday, at the KS10 move, I came away with two IBM PCs, but I > don't know enough about them to know if they are the AT or XT > models... they both have a 5.25" floppy and a hard drive, and > both have color monitors. > > They are both desktop boxes... the monitors were sitting on top > of them. > > So, how do I tell... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > Real IBM AT's also had a cover over the screws and back case end held on by velcro to pretty it up. The PC's didn't. I don't think the XT's did either. I've got a spare if anyone's restoring an AT to that kind of mint condition. Price -- shipping +$5.00. Bill From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sun Apr 25 20:07:03 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: PC question Message-ID: <002601be8f81$19429660$1b3bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> This all sounds like a lot of trouble. They all had labels on the front you know. The AT had "IBM Personal Computer AT", the XT similar with "XT". The only one that looks indistinct was the original PC which just said "IBM Personal Computer". Failing that they had labels on the back. The PC was model 5150, the XT model 5160 and the AT model 5170 as I recall. Hans Olminkhof -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, 26 April 1999 10:09 Subject: Re: PC question >If they are IBM boxes, then the shape will give that away. If the box has a >sloped front, then it's an XT. If the floppy is a full-height drive, it's >an XT, and if you look inside it will be really obvious, in that the XT >motherboard is confined to the area to the left (as you face the front of >the box) of the power supply. Most obvious of all, of course, is the fact >that the XT had no 16-bit slots in the motherboard. XT-types generally had >a floppy controller and a separate hard disk controller. The AT had a >single controller for both. > >Dick > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Megan >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Sunday, April 25, 1999 5:55 PM >Subject: PC question > > >> >>Yesterday, at the KS10 move, I came away with two IBM PCs, but I >>don't know enough about them to know if they are the AT or XT >>models... they both have a 5.25" floppy and a hard drive, and >>both have color monitors. >> >>They are both desktop boxes... the monitors were sitting on top >>of them. >> >>So, how do I tell... >> >> Megan Gentry >> Former RT-11 Developer >> >>+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >>| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >>| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >>| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >>| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >>| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >>| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >>+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Apr 25 20:20:53 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: <199904252343.AA10543@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990425211904.00a70a00@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 07:43 PM 4/25/99 -0400, Megan said something like: > >Yesterday, at the KS10 move, I came away with two IBM PCs, but I >don't know enough about them to know if they are the AT or XT >models... they both have a 5.25" floppy and a hard drive, and >both have color monitors. > >They are both desktop boxes... the monitors were sitting on top >of them. > >So, how do I tell... Hi Megan, tell us the model numbers found on the back label (5150 for example) and report back. Someone will peg them for ya . . . Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 25 19:10:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:34 2005 Subject: It's Alive!!! In-Reply-To: <199904252243.AA07576@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Apr 25, 99 06:43:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 923 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990426/31710857/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 25 19:18:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: <199904252343.AA10543@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Apr 25, 99 07:43:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1426 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990426/bb56cca3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 25 20:49:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: <199904260034.AA08174@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 25, 99 08:34:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 196 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990426/24f8d8e6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 25 20:51:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: <199904260046.UAA39986@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Apr 25, 99 08:46:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 380 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990426/3e6bdb82/attachment.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Apr 25 21:10:07 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 26, 1999 2:51:23 am" Message-ID: <199904260210.WAA40208@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > > Real IBM AT's also had a cover over the screws and back case end held on > > by velcro to pretty it up. > > Except that that cover is almost always missing after all these years. I > don't think I've ever seen a PC/AT with it still in place. I scrounged one when I worked at IBM, just in case I got my hands on a real AT. > > The PC's didn't. I don't think the XT's did either. > > No, the XT is a very similar case to the PC and doesn't have this cover. > > -tony > > Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Apr 25 17:28:43 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were th In-Reply-To: <199904251525.AA05344@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199904260228.WAA00228@smtp.interlog.com> On 25 Apr 99 at 11:25, Allison J Parent wrote: > > I'd have to hunt on that too. > > I believe that the 1952(ish) was the year of the first production computer > (univac, vacuum tubes). It was '58ish maybe later for the first production > transistor machines. I'd extend that with some error the 60s would be > the advent of the first volume production machines. (IE: hundreds of a > kind). > > The watershed event was the forcasting of an election with a computer on > TV. That would bring the idea of a computer from the labratory to something > people could relate to. > > Radios went through the same curve though the peried of time was longer. > > Allison > That sent me to possibly my most treasured mag.,the 50th anniversary Special issue of "Electronics" of April,80. It's 650 pages are devoted to the history of electronic development as chronicled during 50 years of publication. It has a pic of the John Atanasoff proto digital tube computer from 1941 which was instrumental in influencing John Mauchly of Mauchly and Eckert who later held the patent on the electronic computer concept and designed and built the Eniac which debuted Feb 46 . I don't think most of the younger generation realizes the immensity of ever-accellerating technological change during the 1900s, and, spurred by the 2nd WW, since the 30s. The mag has a picture of the FIRST IC which was developed by TI in >> 1958 <<. Our modern computers are inconceivable without ICs not to mention the much later LSI. The first commercially available IC, a flip-flop from Fairchild wasn't available till 61, the same year TCTL was presented by Pacific Semiconductors ! ROM didn't appear until 1967 from Fairchild. While there were considerable computer companies that produced computers in the late 50s, they were really only available to large corporations, governments and military, or large educational institutes. DECs PDP-1 which was considered a price breakthru in 59 cost ONLY $120,000. In the mid-sixties "Electronics" reported that " the US computer industry had had installed 100 large computer systems that year, bringing the total to 600; 200 medium-scale machines for a total of 800; and 400 small-scale units for a total of 3,000" Compared to the present, 4400 is not a lot of computers. Considering that DECs PDP-8 credited as being the first mini(1965) was also the first production computer to sell for under $20,000, suppositions of 50s and 60s "hobby" computers seems somewhat ludicrous. Any such device would be limited to extremely minimal functions. In an April 61 issue Doug C Engelbart whose vision wasn't limited to pointing devices wrote "Researchers postulate a possible future in which computational power will be available in a wall socket, like electrical power, or where every man who wants one can buy a small computer." A decade later this began to be realized thru the devellopment of what I would call the first microprocessor the 4004 in 1971. The "1st personal computer" would have to be defined by processes, otherwise an Abacus would qualify. "Electronic PC" would point to John Atanasoffs analogue machine. Commercial availability would also have to be a criteria. I think we are talking about micros. The starting point would have to be the 70s. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sun Apr 25 21:47:53 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 26, 1999 01:18:03 am" Message-ID: <199904260247.VAA23491@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > > If it's a clone, the above doesn't apply. Pull the case, and find the CPU > chip (probably on the motherboard). If it's an 8088 or an 8086, it's an > XT clone. If it's an 80286, it's an AT clone. > Unless its a 286 XT ;) In which case it probably has a ribbon cable running from the cpu socket, connected to a Microsoft Mach 20 board in one of the expansion slots. -Lawrence LeMay From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Apr 25 17:57:52 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: <199904260034.AA08174@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199904260257.WAA06547@smtp.interlog.com> On 25 Apr 99 at 20:34, Allison J Parent wrote: > > One was a 5150 (xt) the other was a 5170 (also XT) > > If all fails look at the cpu: > > XT 8088 or 8086 > AT 80286 or later > Allison > Heh, Heh, now I don't feel so inadequate for knowing so little about DECs. Aside from the front decals which identify them as a Personal Computer (a PC 5150) , Personal Computer XT (5160), Personal Computer AT (5170) there is a model # on the back. The IBM monitors were Mono 5151, CGA 5153, Feels a little like telling Grace Bulloch what an Atari ST is. :^)) ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From bmahoney at sprint.ca Mon Apr 26 00:30:22 1999 From: bmahoney at sprint.ca (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question References: <199904260034.AA08174@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3723F9EE.5F356734@sprint.ca> Check this url: http://www.can.ibm.com/helpware/vintage.html 5170 is listed as an AT, the 5150 is the 'original' PC. For any info on IBMs, specific or general, always check out the IBM site. They have motherboard layouts, original specs, troubleshooting flowcharts etc. You can always find what you are looking for, although not always through the search engine and not always where you would think. I found the specs for a VGA monitor in the Y2K section. Massive site and a good spot to spend an evening or two. Brian Mahoney Allison J Parent wrote: > > One was a 5150 (xt) the other was a 5170 (also XT) > > -- http://members.xoom.com/T3C/ http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/antique_computers http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/ From gregorym at cadvision.com Sun Apr 25 22:43:51 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: RARE: Original Macintosh found!! Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990425214349.00725f00@cadvision.com> At 04:57 PM 4/25/99 -0700, you wrote: >>Just kidding, but I am looking for some info. I found a good condition 128K >>Mac at a sale today, with most of the original packaging and materials. I'd > >If it says 128k, its not the first Macintosh, which was just labeled >Macintosh. The 128k marking didn't come out until later models were >released to differentiate it. > > My original post may have been misleading. It just says "Macintosh" on the back of the case. I'm assuming that it's a 128K Mac because: it has a 400K floppy drive, no hard drive port on the back, and all of the system software (Finder, MacWrite, MacPaint) is version 1.0, dated early in 1984. Also, all of the accompanying documentation seems to be from the original issue. There's a "limited time" subscription offer to a brand new magazine called MacWorld - think they'll still honour it? How can I check the memory capacity, to see if it's a 128K or a 512K Fat Mac? I'm not that familiar with Macs. Regards, Mark. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 25 23:21:50 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: RARE: Original Macintosh found!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990425214349.00725f00@cadvision.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990425212150.00869250@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:43 PM 4/25/99 -0600, you wrote: >My original post may have been misleading. It just says "Macintosh" on the >back of the case. I'm assuming that it's a 128K Mac because: ... > >How can I check the memory capacity, to see if it's a 128K or a 512K Fat >Mac? I'm not that familiar with Macs. Boot it up, drop down the left hand (I think) menu and select 'About Finder'. This should indicate the memory in the system. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 25 23:51:05 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: Good Weekend, bad weekend... Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990425215105.00e8d540@agora.rdrop.com> Seems like someday you just can't buy a break... Good or bad, and sometimes they come in lots! The past two weekends have been both good and bad around the Computer Garage... The good: some major new additions to the collection The bad: my faithful Chevy Surburban that has provided transport for so much gear over the years has suffered a rather major mechanical failure... (sigh) Preferring to think to the good side tho... I've added a fairly complete Tektronix 4054 graphics computer system to the collection. Along with it came a hard copy unit, external tape drive, a rather large flat bed plotter, and a full set of docs and tapes! Now I've just got go get a large enough flat spot cleared out to light this critter up! (it supposedly all works!) And man, that is one LARGE (19 inch) storage tube!) Then just today I picked up a rather complete set of IBM F.E. manuals and docs for the early Unit Record / EAM machines! The docs are in fine shape for their age (received them from a 31 year IBM vet.) and appear to cover all of the early key punches, sorters, collators, tabulating machines, etc... Most cool! And to go with it, I just picked up an IBM model 82 sorter! (that was on Friday tho...) Also sorting thru the acqusitions from the Paxton auction last week... DEC TU-81+ tape drive, MINC-11, and RA-81 hard drive, a pair of HP 1000F (aka 2117F) CPUs (anyone got docs on these critters?), a Tektronix 4006-1 graphics terminal and model 230 digital unit, an HP 9000/20 (aka 9000/520) workstation, and other minor random goodies... I'd be having an even better time if I were not so bummed over the 'Sub... But, all in all, not a totally horrible weekend or two, eh? And hopefully, I'll get caught up with my photography of the collection as I finally broke down and picked up a digital camera, which has already made it's debut with the shots of the Paxton auction. If of course, I can stop running around picking up new equipment and crawling under vehicles having to fix things... B^} (ok... so maybe if I could just stop having to crawl under vehicles!) -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 26 01:05:38 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: RARE: Original Macintosh found!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990425214349.00725f00@cadvision.com> Message-ID: >My original post may have been misleading. It just says "Macintosh" on the >back of the case. I'm assuming that it's a 128K Mac because: it has a 400K >floppy drive, no hard drive port on the back, and all of the system Sounds like a 128 to me, the Mac 512 said it was a Mac 512. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Sun Apr 25 20:15:10 1999 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: RARE: Original Macintosh found!! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.32.19990425214349.00725f00@cadvision.com> Message-ID: <199904260508.BAA17513@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 22:05:38 -0800 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Zane H. Healy" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: RARE: Original Macintosh found!! > >My original post may have been misleading. It just says "Macintosh" on the > >back of the case. I'm assuming that it's a 128K Mac because: it has a 400K > >floppy drive, no hard drive port on the back, and all of the system > > Sounds like a 128 to me, the Mac 512 said it was a Mac 512. Not needed, it could be upgraded 512K mac. Has to boot up and check the total memory by about info. That one I saw was like that. Wizard > > email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Apr 26 00:27:38 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: Highgate's PDP-8 Web Page Updated! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990425222738.00738584@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: This evening I completed some long-overdue information updates on the highgate.comm.sfu.ca PDP-8 web page. 27 new pdp-8 related documents are now available. About two dozen more items will be added shortly. See http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8 for details. The new items are flagged. Thanks as always to "scanmaster" David Gesswein for the content. Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Apr 26 00:25:27 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: Simon, The First Personal Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, ClassicCmp. I haven't re-subscribed yet, but I hope to as soon as my life reaches a quiescent state (I'm done breaking eggs, and I'm now working on the omelette). I check Kevan's web archive once in a while, so I got a chance to catch the "first pc" thread. Of course, my idea of crowning a machine with the title "the first pc" was intended to be a catalyst for discussion, and to help dispel the popular myth that the Altair was the first pc, or that it started the hobbyist movement, or any such nonsense. However, I think Simon is the best candidate for that title. Yes, there were other simple machines built before Simon, such as Stibitz's relay calculator, the first version of which was built on his kitchen table. But I don't consider such one-offs to be viable contenders. Simon was built in 1950 by Edmund Berkeley for the express purpose of educating the masses and with the express hopes of fostering a computer hobbyist movement. So, who was this Berkeley guy? He was one of the lesser known players in the start of the computer revolution. He was a mathematician who worked on the Harvard Mark II, he worked with Eckert and Mauchly to help define the Univac, he founded the ACM, he started the first computer magazine, etc. How did Simon differ from other simple relay machines, like the first Stibitiz calculators? It was more general purpose, it was portable, and it was popularized in the press. 13 articles on Simon appeared in Radio-Electronics in 1950 and 1951. It was the subject of a cover story in Scientific American. It was covered in two of Berkeley's books. It was given television coverage and appeared in such mainstream magazines as Life. Berkeley was the first computer evangelist -- the first to articulate the idea of a personal computer, and the first to build one. Of course, there were others, such as Vanevar Bush, who described futuristic visions, but Berkeley dedicated a good part of his life to making computers accessible to mere mortals. I haven't stumbled upon a machine yet more deserving of "the first pc" title than Simon, and given the depth of Berkeley's work, I don't expect to. But Simon was just the first milestone towards the goal of accessible personal computers, and it doesn't diminish the importance of the PDP-8, the Mark-8, or even the lowly IBM PC. OK, I'll crawl back under my rock now. -- Doug -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Blinkenlights Archaeological Institute Featuring... http://www.blinkenlights.com/ Nearly Forgotten Personal Computers From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 26 00:36:13 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question References: <199904252343.AA10543@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3723FB4D.ED0DAD01@rain.org> Megan wrote: > > Yesterday, at the KS10 move, I came away with two IBM PCs, but I > don't know enough about them to know if they are the AT or XT > models... they both have a 5.25" floppy and a hard drive, and > both have color monitors. IBM PC - 5 slots, 8 bit card connectors, 63.5 watt P/S, 0 - 2 360K floppy disk drives, 4116 or 4164 memory chips depending on motherboard, and a maximum of 256K RAM on the motherboard. The keyboard does not include separate cursor keys. The front nameplace will have IBM Personal Computer on it. IBM XT - 8 slots, 8 bit card connectors (one connector per slot), 150 watt P/S, 1 or 2 360K floppy disk drives, Hard disk, can't recall memory chips but I believe 4164 up to 256K RAM on motherboard, same keyboard as the PC. The front nameplate will have IBM Personal Computer XT on it. IBM AT - 8 slots, 16 bit card connectors (two connectors per slot), IIRC 200 watt P/S, 1 or 2 floppy drives: if one, then 1.2 MB Floppy disk, if two, could be one 1.2 MB floppy and one 360K, or two 1.2 MB drives, up to 512K RAM of 41256 chips on motherboard (early ones used piggy back chips), AT keyboard with separate cursor keys. Can't recall what the front nameplate has on it, but the case (besides being bigger than the XT case) has an additional reset switch, keylock switch, and "power on" LED on the front panel. Modifications can change the above configurations, and one of the common mods was to put a hard drive in a PC by replacing the P/S with a 150 watt P/S and adding the HD controller. Clone PC/XT cases could also have the same front panel switches as the IBM AT. Lots more possibilities but I think this takes care of the most common cases (pun intended :) .) From gregorym at cadvision.com Mon Apr 26 01:07:48 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: RARE: Original Macintosh found!! Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990426000747.007229d8@cadvision.com> At 09:21 PM 4/25/99 -0700, you wrote: >At 09:43 PM 4/25/99 -0600, you wrote: >>My original post may have been misleading. It just says "Macintosh" on the >>back of the case. I'm assuming that it's a 128K Mac because: ... >> >>How can I check the memory capacity, to see if it's a 128K or a 512K Fat >>Mac? I'm not that familiar with Macs. > >Boot it up, drop down the left hand (I think) menu and select 'About >Finder'. This should indicate the memory in the system. > >-jim > >--- >jimw@computergarage.org >The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > When I choose "About the Finder ...", I get "The Macintosh Finder Version 1.0 (18 Jan 84) @ 1984 Apple Computer" No mention of memory size. But I would guess that it doesn't mention the memory size because no size other than 128K was contemplated; i.e. this is an original Mac. Any other way to check? BTW, were the "Programmer's switches" (Interrupt and Reset) de-emphasized after the original Mac? My Mac Plus has the same microswitches inside the case, but I had never heard of them before. This system is a bit of a puzzle. As I understand it, a single drive original Mac was almost unusable, due to lack of RAM and the need for frequent disk swaps. So I would expect mint condition. However, this system (Mac, mouse, KB, Imagewriter printer) shows some signs of wear, even though it was never upgraded to 512K, and there was no second drive with the system. Regards, Mark From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 26 01:40:32 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: TWR Swap Meet In-Reply-To: <37238BF6.3C1D6E99@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: > Several of us got together at John's selling spots at TRW and used that for > "command control". The day was really comfortable, and we looked all over > for cmoputer related bargains. Towards the end, I was wandering around and > ran across a Multitech Micro-Professor MPF-1P for $10 that was still in the > box and only missing a ribbon cable to connect the processor board to the > printer board. For anyone interested, there pictures of it are at: Yes, Marvin came away with the find of the day (and a damn nice one!) > I'll leave it to the others to describe what they found there. After the > meet was over, we headed out to lunch to get more comfortable and discuss > VCF 3.0, computer collecting, ebay, and other interesting topics! Those who didn't attend missed out on free VCF t-shirts. ;) > After lunch, we went over to Johns to check out his collection. Having a > wall of racks containing computers and peripherals is a really neat thing to > see. Since John is fast running out of space, I volunteered to remove parts > of the collection for him to give him more room. But he felt that the Imsai > and others felt at home there, and as much as he wanted the additional room, > felt that it would be unfair to the computers to just transplant them > without any warning. But, as I told him, this was something I would only > volunteer to do for a friend. John has got a righteous setup. You L.A. area dudes who didn't show missed out on a pretty good geek-filled time. John was also very generous with a bunch of excess hardware. I finally took that AS400 off his hands he'd been wanting to get out of his patio. Computer collecting sometimes makes for interesting situations. I wonder if anyone's ever hauled an AS400 in the back seat of their car up Topanga Canyon Blvd? :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 26 08:26:25 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: <199904260247.VAA23491@thufir.cs.umn.edu> References: from Tony Duell at "Apr 26, 1999 01:18:03 am" Message-ID: <199904261127.NAA29860@horus.mch.sni.de> > > If it's a clone, the above doesn't apply. Pull the case, and find the CPU > > chip (probably on the motherboard). If it's an 8088 or an 8086, it's an > > XT clone. If it's an 80286, it's an AT clone. > Unless its a 286 XT ;) In which case it probably has a ribbon cable running > from the cpu socket, connected to a Microsoft Mach 20 board in one of > the expansion slots. I have to disagree - thats an upgraded XT, but there have been 'true' XT286 from IBM - these are branded as XT or XT286 and utilize the 286 on the mainboard (AFAIK it has been a special Mobo revision). I just can't hit the modell number. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 26 08:26:24 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: <199904260257.WAA06547@smtp.interlog.com> References: <199904260034.AA08174@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199904261127.NAA29873@horus.mch.sni.de> > > > > > > One was a 5150 (xt) the other was a 5170 (also XT) > > If all fails look at the cpu: > > XT 8088 or 8086 > > AT 80286 or later Or XT286 ! > > Allison > Heh, Heh, now I don't feel so inadequate for knowing so little about DECs. > Aside from the front decals which identify them as a Personal Computer (a > PC 5150) , Personal Computer XT (5160), Personal Computer AT (5170) > there is a model # on the back. The IBM monitors were Mono 5151, CGA 5153, > Feels a little like telling Grace Bulloch what an Atari ST is. :^)) Aeh - and who's Grace Bulloch ? (Just for the records) H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Mon Apr 26 07:45:26 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: NEC APC III Boot Disk Message-ID: <005101be8fe2$a97bdb40$1b3bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> There was a thread earlier about APC III's and I recall people asking for boot disks. I found a working machine today with a hard drive, and have made a teledisk image of a 360k boot disk that works if the machine has an SLE card fitted. It's MS Dos 2.11 . Email me for a copy. If there is no SLE card it would need the original OS on a quad density disk. The SLE card in this one wasn't labelled as such, just a card in an expansion slot with an 8086 chip and Eproms on it. Hans From guerney at uq.net.au Mon Apr 26 08:35:13 1999 From: guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: Old computer books? Oh, we shred them! References: Message-ID: <005001be8fe9$a8e22f20$b40a64cb@default> From: Sellam Ismail > On Sun, 25 Apr 1999, Phil Guerney wrote: > > > The good news was that I found amongst the "sets" (encyclopedias etc) a full > > set (I think, 22 volumes anyway) of the Time-Life series Understanding > > 22 volumes? The complete set is only 7 volumes. Well what I have here is as follows: TIME-LIFE Books UNDERSTANDING COMPUTERS (C) 1987 Volumes (each 128 pages long): Revolution in Science (good history in that one) The Computerized Society Computer Images Computer Security Artificial Intelligence Computers and the Cosmos Space Memory and Storage Speed and Power Communications The Chipmakers The Puzzle Master Computer Basics The Military Frontier Robotics The Personal Computer Input/Output Software Computer Languages Transportation The Software Challenge OK - that is only 21. There was a duplicate pair in the box. But a lot more than seven! ? There does not seem to be a numbering system such as a volume number anywhere within or outside the books (such as on the spine). The copyright page is at the back of each volume (always page 128) and includes a small paragraph headed "European Edition", so this may not be the same edition that was sold in the USA? Phil From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 26 08:20:32 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: Simon, The First Personal Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990426082032.01015930@vpwisfirewall> At 01:25 AM 4/26/99 -0400, Doug wrote: > >However, I think Simon is the best candidate for that title. >OK, I'll crawl back under my rock now. So who owns a Simon today? Have you found one? Have you tracked down the family or employees? >X-Sender: doug@genco.haggle.com *Working* at Haggle? - John From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Apr 26 04:56:15 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: Old computer books? Oh, we shred them! In-Reply-To: <005001be8fe9$a8e22f20$b40a64cb@default> Message-ID: <199904261355.JAA16803@smtp.interlog.com> On 26 Apr 99 at 23:35, Phil Guerney wrote: > From: Sellam Ismail > > On Sun, 25 Apr 1999, Phil Guerney wrote: > > > > > The good news was that I found amongst the "sets" (encyclopedias etc) a > full > > > set (I think, 22 volumes anyway) of the Time-Life series Understanding > > > > 22 volumes? The complete set is only 7 volumes. > > Well what I have here is as follows: > TIME-LIFE Books UNDERSTANDING COMPUTERS (C) 1987 > Volumes (each 128 pages long): > Revolution in Science (good history in that one) > The Computerized Society > Computer Images > Computer Security > Artificial Intelligence > Computers and the Cosmos > Space > Memory and Storage > Speed and Power > Communications > The Chipmakers > The Puzzle Master > Computer Basics > The Military Frontier > Robotics > The Personal Computer > Input/Output > Software > Computer Languages > Transportation > The Software Challenge > > OK - that is only 21. There was a duplicate pair in the box. But a lot more > than seven! > ? > There does not seem to be a numbering system such as a volume number > anywhere within or outside the books (such as on the spine). The copyright > page is at the back of each volume (always page 128) and includes a small > paragraph headed "European Edition", so this may not be the same edition > that was sold in the USA? > > Phil > I have the same set. Nicely presented but a little shallow. That number seems about right. I think I have about 15 of them. There is a set index in the first one IIRC. Can't remember which one that is and they are buried in a box here. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Apr 26 04:56:17 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: <199904261127.NAA29873@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <199904260257.WAA06547@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199904261355.JAA16792@smtp.interlog.com> On 26 Apr 99 at 13:27, Hans Franke wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > One was a 5150 (xt) the other was a 5170 (also XT) > > > > If all fails look at the cpu: > > > > XT 8088 or 8086 > > > AT 80286 or later > > Or XT286 ! > > > > Allison > > > Heh, Heh, now I don't feel so inadequate for knowing so little about DECs. > > Aside from the front decals which identify them as a Personal Computer (a > > PC 5150) , Personal Computer XT (5160), Personal Computer AT (5170) > > there is a model # on the back. The IBM monitors were Mono 5151, CGA 5153, > > Feels a little like telling Grace Bulloch what an Atari ST is. :^)) > > Aeh - and who's Grace Bulloch ? (Just for the records) > H. > > -- Oops . A slip. I had one eye on the tv screen watching Sandra. I meant Grace Hopper who developed the compiler for Univac and later headed the COBOL development for the Navy. Likely the most influential woman in computer history. ciao Larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Apr 26 04:56:16 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: <199904261127.NAA29860@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <199904260247.VAA23491@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <199904261355.JAA16780@smtp.interlog.com> On 26 Apr 99 at 13:27, Hans Franke wrote: > > > If it's a clone, the above doesn't apply. Pull the case, and find the CPU > > > chip (probably on the motherboard). If it's an 8088 or an 8086, it's an > > > XT clone. If it's an 80286, it's an AT clone. > > > Unless its a 286 XT ;) In which case it probably has a ribbon cable running > > from the cpu socket, connected to a Microsoft Mach 20 board in one of > > the expansion slots. > > I have to disagree - thats an upgraded XT, but there have been > 'true' XT286 from IBM - these are branded as XT or XT286 and > utilize the 286 on the mainboard (AFAIK it has been a special > Mobo revision). I just can't hit the modell number. > > Gruss > H. > The XT286 model # was the 5162 ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 26 10:07:01 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: <199904261127.NAA29873@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: > One was a 5150 (xt) the other was a 5170 (also XT) should have been (an AT PC). It was late when that was posted and I was tired. It's was a rather non sequitor? There was no question one was a XT, the 5170 might have been xt or at as the case was the same for both. There is no certainty that the case reflected contents without a screwdriver!. > > Feels a little like telling Grace Bulloch what an Atari ST is. :^)) Yes, But I do know. I'm just old enough that I've forgotte why I know that. ;) Allison From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Apr 26 10:27:45 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: It's Alive!!! References: Message-ID: <372485F0.CACA24BE@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > Wow!!! I think I just smoked the power distribution unit on the RL02 rack, > but I just booted RT-11 V4 on the PDP-11/44! It is Alive!!! Mazul tov!! (probably spelt wrong and this script can't do hebrew!) From bmahoney at sprint.ca Mon Apr 26 12:55:25 1999 From: bmahoney at sprint.ca (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: observation on IBM PC question References: <199904260034.AA08174@world.std.com> <3723F9EE.5F356734@sprint.ca> Message-ID: <3724A88C.B6389342@sprint.ca> In case anyone actually followed my advice and took a look at the IBM site, I wanted to add that IBM seems to be adding credence to what we as a group do, as in computer collecting. (Maybe we do other things as a group, I'm not sure.) Besides photos of their vintage computers, they also provide prices, specs and on some models actual downloads, although the downloads have been around for years from their BBS. It would seem that they realize that a lot of their computers are still around and new owners may be looking for information on them, but they are also, perhaps, offering this stuff for original owners who might still be plunking away on a PCjr or 5150 somewhere. As a company, IBM seems to be interested in its past which I find refreshing. Maybe this is obvious. I am really good at quoting that. Brian Mahoney wrote: > Check this url: > http://www.can.ibm.com/helpware/vintage.html > -- http://members.xoom.com/T3C/ http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/antique_computers http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/ From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Mon Apr 26 11:20:15 1999 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: GEM GPL'd? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Here is a site that claims Caldera just GPL'd GEM. > http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/gemworld.html I've no idea of the validity of > this statement, but apparently the guy running the site browbeat Caldera > into releasing it. They've got a pretty good selection of GEM PC software, > and it sounds like other stuff elsewhere on the site. If you're interested > in such things. > I think I read of this on slashdot. Someone mentioned that the code is probably in just about the same state as mozilla was when it was released and would need quite a bit of work before it would even compile. This should be a neat project. -- David Wollmann DST / DST Data Conversion http://www.ibmhelp.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 26 11:40:16 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: <3723FB4D.ED0DAD01@rain.org> Message-ID: > additional reset switch, keylock switch, and "power on" LED on the front ^^^^^^^^^^^^ NO!!!!! Any responsible computer manufacturer of the time included a reset switch. But we are talking about IBM. THERE WAS NO RESET SWITCH ON A REAL UNMODIFIED IBM AT. Minor quibble: was the XT power supply 135W? On Sun, 25 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: > Megan wrote: > > > > Yesterday, at the KS10 move, I came away with two IBM PCs, but I > > don't know enough about them to know if they are the AT or XT > > models... they both have a 5.25" floppy and a hard drive, and > > both have color monitors. > > IBM PC - 5 slots, 8 bit card connectors, 63.5 watt P/S, 0 - 2 360K floppy > disk drives, 4116 or 4164 memory chips depending on motherboard, and a > maximum of 256K RAM on the motherboard. The keyboard does not include > separate cursor keys. The front nameplace will have IBM Personal Computer on > it. > > IBM XT - 8 slots, 8 bit card connectors (one connector per slot), 150 watt > P/S, 1 or 2 360K floppy disk drives, Hard disk, can't recall memory chips > but I believe 4164 up to 256K RAM on motherboard, same keyboard as the PC. > The front nameplate will have IBM Personal Computer XT on it. > > IBM AT - 8 slots, 16 bit card connectors (two connectors per slot), IIRC 200 > watt P/S, 1 or 2 floppy drives: if one, then 1.2 MB Floppy disk, if two, > could be one 1.2 MB floppy and one 360K, or two 1.2 MB drives, up to 512K > RAM of 41256 chips on motherboard (early ones used piggy back chips), AT > keyboard with separate cursor keys. Can't recall what the front nameplate > has on it, but the case (besides being bigger than the XT case) has an > additional reset switch, keylock switch, and "power on" LED on the front > panel. > > Modifications can change the above configurations, and one of the common > mods was to put a hard drive in a PC by replacing the P/S with a 150 watt > P/S and adding the HD controller. Clone PC/XT cases could also have the same > front panel switches as the IBM AT. Lots more possibilities but I think this > takes care of the most common cases (pun intended :) .) From clintw at colorado.cirrus.com Mon Apr 26 11:45:52 1999 From: clintw at colorado.cirrus.com (Clint Wolff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: DEC documentation RUMOR???? Message-ID: <199904261645.KAA12204@ws2044.colorado.cirrus.com> Hi all, I read a web page somewhere that indicated DEC put in the public domain all the documentation they no longer publish. Is this true? Can anyone point me back to the original web page? Thanks, clint From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Mon Apr 26 08:23:17 1999 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: References: <3723FB4D.ED0DAD01@rain.org> Message-ID: <199904261716.NAA26179@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:40:16 -0700 (PDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: PC question > X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > NO!!!!! > Any responsible computer manufacturer of the time included a reset switch. > But we are talking about IBM. > THERE WAS NO RESET SWITCH ON A REAL UNMODIFIED IBM AT. That's the beef with many machines even we had to add one to a 1 year old PII from gateway. (!!) Resetting by power cycles is VERY hard on all parts including wearing out HD fast. I see that same effect on early laptops HDs that was constantly spinning up/down on demand. > Minor quibble: was the XT power supply 135W? I think bit smaller than that. I Know it's not 63W. Upgrade was 135W or 180W not sure for offical IBM upgrade. Many IBM PC PSUs were made by Zenith, I can tell. My favorite is ones with sloped fan behind protective stamped grilles. Also these IBM PSUs always have ball bearing fans which is big boon! :-) Wizard email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 26 12:19:28 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question References: Message-ID: <3724A020.4E3291F5@rain.org> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > additional reset switch, keylock switch, and "power on" LED on the front > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > NO!!!!! > Any responsible computer manufacturer of the time included a reset switch. > But we are talking about IBM. > THERE WAS NO RESET SWITCH ON A REAL UNMODIFIED IBM AT. > > Minor quibble: was the XT power supply 135W? Ah yes, call it a senior moment :), and yes on both counts. Now that you mention it, I can't recall if there was even a reset connection on the AT motherboard. Somehow the 150 watt P/S didn't sound quite right, but I was a bit tired and didn't give it enough thought. From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 26 12:20:36 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: observation on IBM PC question References: <199904260034.AA08174@world.std.com> <3723F9EE.5F356734@sprint.ca> <3724A88C.B6389342@sprint.ca> Message-ID: <3724A064.A047EDC1@rain.org> Brian Mahoney wrote: > > In case anyone actually followed my advice and took a look at the IBM site, > I wanted to add that IBM seems to be adding credence to what we as a group > do, as in computer collecting. (Maybe we do other things as a group, I'm > > > Check this url: > > http://www.can.ibm.com/helpware/vintage.html > > I hadn't seen that URL before, but it sure has some nice information on it! Thanks for posting it. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Apr 26 12:40:14 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: Old computer books? Oh, we shred them! In-Reply-To: <005001be8fe9$a8e22f20$b40a64cb@default> References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990426103847.00ab2c20@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >Well what I have here is as follows: >TIME-LIFE Books UNDERSTANDING COMPUTERS (C) 1987 [snip] >There does not seem to be a numbering system such as a volume number >anywhere within or outside the books (such as on the spine). That is because there is no number system, these were sold on a "preview" basis, get the first one for $1.99 and they send you one once a month that you can "keep" for only $9.99+shipping. There are lots of Time-Life series like this. --Chuck From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Mon Apr 26 11:59:47 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: Power connectors Message-ID: <8025675F.005DE694.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> Hey, Sallam, couldn't this power thing be a good addition for >> VCF 3.0? A speach about how to operate Eq. from a different >> country (and power system) in an acceptable and safe fashion ? >> Maybe if Philip and me (possible with a thirs, US guy) team up >> to give an outline of the different circumstances to remember >> when using foreign (old) computers ? There might be some need. > > Yes, I think this would make for a great workshop. I expect more people > to start trading computers across the world and this will make for a very > relevant discussion. I think it's an excellent idea. In fact I have long thought a computer-buff's guide to power electrics (the mains) would be worth writing. But I doubt I'll manage VCF 3 this year. A holiday in CA is not something I do every year, alas... Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Mon Apr 26 12:17:13 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: Powerlines Message-ID: <8025675F.005F8174.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> I'm not sure whether this was satisfactorily cleared up. Anyway, the message was still on my list of Classiccmp mails to be answered when I finally caught up with reading them this pm. >> > Realy 234V (strange) and 180 degree ? Where do you know ? By definition ? >> > Just remember, if you tap between 2 phases of a 3~ signal you still get >> > a perfect sinus and you can't decide if it is a single phase or part of >> > a 3 phase signal. Ok, I'm always learning new things on this earth :9 >> > The numbers just saemed to fit well. >> I'm sure the power company has a legal obligation to keep the voltage >> within a certain range of values. Although, I don't know exactly what that >> range is. I think 117 is probably the optimal value for each of the legs >> giving 234 for the total. I've heard it referred to as 110, 115, 117, and >> 120. Since the actual voltage varies any of these could be correct. > > Anybody out there knowing the US regulations ? AFAIR somewhen in the > late 70s the acording definitions have been worldewide standardized > on 115V/200V and 230/400V - the intention was to allow manufacturers > (especialy the ones for power transmission systems) to develop more > efiecently and to lower building costs, since within the lower power > range (up to some MW) designs could be standardized on a simple level. >> Since it is a simple transformer, the phases are 180 degrees out of phase >> (by definition). That's assuming a balanced resistive load. Of course, that >> could change under a heavy inductive or capacitive load but, that's an >> extreme and won't normally present a problem. > > Still not an argument against 2 phases from an 3~ signal. 1. Voltage The voltage will be declared by the supply company to be some value +/- some tolerance. This will usually be according to a national standard. The transformer will usually have a higher voltage on its rating plate - if the nominal voltage is 115 or 117 volts, the transformer may be rated at 120V. People near the transformer will get 120V, people at the far end of the cable will get 110V. My house is very near the transformer so I get 248V on a nominal 230V supply (NB when it was nominally 240V I got 248V. Nobody has adjusted the transformer...) 2. Phase. As I understand it the usual practice in the US is take _either_ a phase and earth (neutral) _or_ two phases of the HV supply and feed a single phase transformer from this. The LV side of the transformer is (say) 240V with a centre tap. The centre tap is earthed and provides the neutral connection, the outer two taps are then both hot at 120V, 180 degrees apart. This is true _even if_ the primary (HV winding) is connected between two phases of the HV 3-phase system. In the UK the usual practice is to connect all 3 phases of the HV (almost invariably 11kV phase to phase) to a delta-star 3-phase transformer. The secondary, the star-connected winding provides 3 phases and neutral. Neutral is earthed at the transformer. Protective earth can be provided by _either_ a separate wire from the main earth at the transformer _or_ an earthing electrode at each customer's site _or_ the neutral is earthed at a large number of points on the system and the customer's protective earth is bonded to neutral at the point of entry of the supply. In all cases the customer sees 240V line to neutral; if he gets more than one line (hot) connection, they will be 120 degrees apart. In remote locations, only 2 phases of the 11kV system are taken to the site. Small loads get a single phase 11kV/250V transformer with one end of the LV earthed; larger loads get a single phase 11kV/500V transformer with a centre tap earthed. Some farm equipment (I am told - I have never seen this) is rated for 480V single phase. It is very unusual for a domestic installation to get more than one phase and neutral. But 3-phase can be done - the supply company don't mind putting it in if they think you'll buy a lot of electricity! Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Mon Apr 26 12:25:23 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <8025675F.00603E82.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > > The ferrite would not show enough external field change to be a reliable > indicator. However when the wires were driven they indeed would! OK, how about it. Put a ring of compasses around the wire with needles strongly enough magnetised that they will stay pointing N-S around the ring regardless of the Earth's field. Can you then flip them with a current? A very good visual demonstration of how core works! Philip. BTW Siemens make some torroidal cores down to 1mm thick ferrite, slightly larger in other materials. RS Components stock some - http://rswww.com/ and go in through the catalogue: "Electronics", "Transformers/Inductors/Ferrites", "Ferrites", "Torroids" (sic). There are even data sheets but I didn't manage to download them. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Mon Apr 26 12:28:27 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: Good Weekend, bad weekend... Message-ID: <8025675F.00608654.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Jim Willing: > I've added a fairly complete Tektronix 4054 graphics computer system to the > collection. Along with it came a hard copy unit, external tape drive, a > rather large flat bed plotter, and a full set of docs and tapes! You. Lucky. Beggar. (Green with envy) Philip. (sorry there's not much content in this message, but I had to get it off my chest. More and more 4050 series coming out of the woodwork! Keep up the good work!) From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 26 14:14:17 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases In-Reply-To: <37212662.A067A496@halcyon.com> Message-ID: I haven't been able to dig up a faq on this; can someone point me to it? As far as CitriSolv, my usual method is to completely disassemble to the point where I have a case that is completely washable with water. I spray the CitriSolv full-strength on the case, wait about 30 seconds, wipe with a *very soft* sponge, and rinse for 2-3 minutes under fast running water. If there are any really stubborn stains, I'll just keep repeating short full-strength applications with increasingly vigorous scrubbing (always with a soft sponge) until I either remove the stains or all the skin on my hands. Without knowing much about plastics or which manufacturers used what (might be a good faq in itself!), I can say that I've successfully used this on all of my Atari plastic cases, VAXStations, Macintoshes, WYSE terminals, Sparcs and metal-case Suns, etc. without any noticable side effects whatsoever. I think the key is to make sure you rinse everything *extremely well*. The only thing I ever had a bad experience with was one of those "soft" pot-scrubber type pads. It was one of those plastic pieces with the lightly-textured matte finish. Well, I got it really clean - and really shiny exactly where I'd rubbed it. It's not bad from the right angle...but when the light hits it just right, it's a real eyesore. So don't scrub too hard... Aaron On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, David C. Jenner wrote: > We (the list) went through this a year or two ago. Somewhere there is > a FAQ that talks alot about this. > > You need to be careful with CitriSolv. If you use too strong a solution, > or don't rub it off, it will literally dissolve most plastics. Used > carefully, it does a great job. From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 26 14:31:25 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: TWR Swap Meet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Grrrrr. I got stuck working until around 3am Friday night and slept until almost 10am. I did the typical leap out of bed with a burst of profanity, hoping that the clock would tell me I got my usual 3 hours of rest and could still make the meet... Apologies for missing such a good time; I'll make it next time for sure. Sellam, you going to be there again next month? Aaron On Sun, 25 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > John has got a righteous setup. You L.A. area dudes who didn't show > missed out on a pretty good geek-filled time. John was also very generous > with a bunch of excess hardware. I finally took that AS400 off his hands > he'd been wanting to get out of his patio. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 26 14:35:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: <3723FB4D.ED0DAD01@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Apr 25, 99 10:36:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1682 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990426/50bcc46f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 26 14:28:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: <199904260247.VAA23491@thufir.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Apr 25, 99 09:47:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 723 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990426/e278f66b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 26 14:48:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: <199904261716.NAA26179@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@pop.cgocable.net" at Apr 26, 99 01:23:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 388 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990426/7127b0cb/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Apr 26 16:19:01 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: Some things make me want to toss my cookies ... Message-ID: <4.1.19990426141837.00b16c70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> http://www.bccc.com/nancy/memorydress.html From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Mon Apr 26 16:16:37 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: FW: VAX 6500 in Minneapolis. Message-ID: <199904262116.RAA23791@golden.net> PLEASE REPLY DIRECTLY TO THE AUTHOR OF THE ORIGINAL MESSAGE. >Reply-To: >From: "Ken Peck" >To: >Subject: Computer Hardware for Museum >Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:28:02 -0400 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >Importance: Normal >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 >X-UIDL: e7780be67b36c9d8688e16fdc0bca942 > >Kevin, > >There is a Vax 6500 in Minneapolis, >Minnesota that will be de-installed in June. I thought perhaps there might >be some interest in the historical value of it for some collector or museum. >If you or someone you know might be interested, please let contact me. > >Regards, > >Ken Peck >Total Renal Laboratories, Inc. >1991 Industrial Dr. >Deland, Fl. 32724 >800.604.5227 > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 26 18:32:17 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: Some things make me want to toss my cookies ... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990426141837.00b16c70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <199904262133.XAA17479@horus.mch.sni.de> > http://www.bccc.com/nancy/memorydress.html Entartete Kunst ? Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Apr 26 16:51:16 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: Cores, light bulb goes on ... Message-ID: <4.1.19990426142310.00cf8390@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Core memory, the saga continues. Ok after spending much of the weekend trying to get my core driver working, and feeling really good about having all the parts I needed in my spares box, I realized I had built half of an h-bridge. Since I had already designed a really nice MOSFET based h-bridge that could switch 10 - 15 amps for my robots I slapped my head and went "Doh!" Anyway, so I wired up my #2 nut with sense wire to the h-bridge and start slapping current back and forth through my nuts. :-) Seriously though when viewed on 'scope it looks something like: +--+ | | Ch1 -+ +----+ +----- | | +--+ +--+ Ch2 -+ +----+ +----- +--+ UNTIL you get to about 7.5 amps or so, and then it looks like: +--+ | | Ch1 -+ +----+ +----- | | +--+ +--+ Ch2 ---+ +----+ +----- +--+ So I stared at it a bit and the little bulb went on between my ears. The first pulse "writes" a zero to the core, if the core is either already magnetized with a zero, or has nothing in it, then the sense line sees the deta-B (change in magnetic field) and a current is induced in the wire. When the second pulse comes along it "writes" a one into the core, same effect on the sense wire. The clever part comes when your "write" a zero to a core that has a one already written to it. In this case the current in the wire induces its standard magnetic field, but that field is _cancelled_ by the field already in the core, thus for a period of time the sense line sees no change in magnetic flux, and so no current is induced. Then however the core switches to 0 and the sense wire sees that change in flux and out comes the induced pulse now delayed from the initial point by a time controlled by how long it took to saturate the core and switch it. The gap between the pulse start and the sense pulse is used to tell whether or not the core had a 1 in it. Now in the DEC design what happens after the read pulse (which is really a "write zeros" pulse, is they take the data they just read and re write with the write ones pulse. However this time since the sense lines aren't needed to figure out what the cores had in them, they use them for "inhibit" currents. Remembering that the cores were all written to zero by the 'read' when the write 'ones' pulse comes along you don't want it writing cores that you want to keep zero (they had zero before). So a current that is in opposite direction of the write current is sent down the sense lines where zeros should be kept. The magnetic field generated by these "inhibit" currents cancel the magnetic field created by the "write ones" current and thus prevents those cores with a 'zero' in them from being written to '1'. -------------------------- Cool stuff, now it raises some new questions: 1) Do you want your pulses to be long enough to switch the core exactly, or longer? (eg does writing a zero just cancel a one or does it cancel the one and write a zero in its place?) 2) Why not just gate the write one current pulse? That would save on the inhibit current stuff. 3) What properties of a material make it easier to switch at lower currents? I don't want to build a core plane with nuts if I need 8 amps to switch them. --Chuck McManis From danburrows at mindspring.com Mon Apr 26 16:33:36 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:35 2005 Subject: Powerlines Message-ID: <002701be902d$274e6610$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >2. Phase. > >As I understand it the usual practice in the US is take _either_ a phase and >earth (neutral) _or_ two phases of the HV supply and feed a single phase >transformer from this. The LV side of the transformer is (say) 240V with a >centre tap. The centre tap is earthed and provides the neutral connection, the >outer two taps are then both hot at 120V, 180 degrees apart. This is true _even >if_ the primary (HV winding) is connected between two phases of the HV 3-phase >system. Close but not quite right. For single phase installations the power company supplies 2 hots and neutral. This is a center tapped secondary and the neutral is earthed at the service entrance. The primary of this transformer is fed from only 1 high voltage phase. >In the UK the usual practice is to connect all 3 phases of the HV (almost >invariably 11kV phase to phase) to a delta-star 3-phase transformer. The >secondary, the star-connected winding provides 3 phases and neutral. Neutral is >earthed at the transformer. Protective earth can be provided by _either_ a >separate wire from the main earth at the transformer _or_ an earthing electrode >at each customer's site _or_ the neutral is earthed at a large number of points >on the system and the customer's protective earth is bonded to neutral at the >point of entry of the supply. In all cases the customer sees 240V line to >neutral; if he gets more than one line (hot) connection, they will be 120 >degrees apart. The delta-star is the same but with 120 phase to neutral and 208 phase to phase. In the UK it is the same but 240 phase to neutral and 416 phase to phase. You can also commonly find 480 3 phase delta- star 277 phase to neutral. This is then used for lighting (277 florescent is common) and large loads like air conditioning. In these installations the customer has to provide their own transformer to 208/120. >In remote locations, only 2 phases of the 11kV system are taken to the site. >Small loads get a single phase 11kV/250V transformer with one end of the LV >earthed; larger loads get a single phase 11kV/500V transformer with a centre tap >earthed. Some farm equipment (I am told - I have never seen this) is rated for >480V single phase. I don't think this is avail. in the US. > >It is very unusual for a domestic installation to get more than one phase and >neutral. But 3-phase can be done - the supply company don't mind putting it in >if they think you'll buy a lot of electricity! They will here also and I checked into getting it here but I am a few miles from the closest point that 3 phase is available for distribution. I would either have to guarentee a large $ per month usage or pay them to add the additional lines. Over $10,000 was mentioned. Dan From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Apr 26 16:53:45 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Some things make me want to toss my cookies ... In-Reply-To: <199904262133.XAA17479@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <4.1.19990426141837.00b16c70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990426145316.03d21bc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 11:33 PM 4/26/99 +0001, you wrote: >> http://www.bccc.com/nancy/memorydress.html > >Entartete Kunst ? Kunst wird schlecht ! I don't know what it means either. --Chuck From ss at allegro.com Mon Apr 26 17:22:13 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: HP 1000 on eBay : auctioned by unresponsive bidder Message-ID: <199904262222.PAA25849@bart.allegro.com> Hi, I was about to send this just to ccauction list, but I realized that some ClassicCmp readers might not read ccauction ... and they might have an interest. In a rather misleading title: "antique Altair-like HP-1000 M-series computer" dschambe@uiuc.edu is selling a partially gutted HP 1000 computer. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=95719221 This seller has consistently refused to respond to my email about two items that I got for low bids on prior auctions...so I have never been able to finalize the purchase. If anyone from this list does bid on the HP 1000, and wins, please encourage this guy to honor his *existing* committments before sending him money! thanks! sieler@allegro.com From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Apr 26 17:36:47 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Some things make me want to toss my cookies ... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990426145316.03d21bc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 26, 99 02:53:45 pm Message-ID: <199904262236.PAA09262@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 596 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990426/49e89c2e/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Apr 26 18:09:19 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: HP 1000 on eBay : auctioned by unresponsive bidder In-Reply-To: <199904262222.PAA25849@bart.allegro.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990426160745.03c65af0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 03:22 PM 4/26/99 -0700, ss@allegro.com wrote: >dschambe@uiuc.edu is selling a partially gutted HP 1000 computer. >This seller has consistently refused to respond to my email about >two items that I got for low bids on prior auctions...so I have never >been able to finalize the purchase. Then leave negative feedback on him. It it will make it impossible for him to sell anything for more than a buck. I asked about his "antique" pdp-11's and he never responded so I never bid. This guy also sold the PDP-8 (unknown model, unknown condition, and no I won't answer questions.) but I don't know if that sale finalized either. --Chuck From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 26 20:16:42 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Some things make me want to toss my cookies ... In-Reply-To: <199904262236.PAA09262@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <4.1.19990426145316.03d21bc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 26, 99 02:53:45 pm Message-ID: <199904262317.BAA21426@horus.mch.sni.de> > ::>Entartete Kunst ? > ::I don't know what it means either. > "Degenerate Art" > Hitler's name for the German Expressionists during the Nazi rise to power. Not only - this was term used to bann every kind of 'unwanted' art. But beside this fact, I love Chuck's answer (Kunst wird schlecht!) - after all it's also a matter of taste :) > (Yes, I did take Art History. :-) :) Servus H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 26 18:18:53 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <199904262318.AA20757@world.std.com> I recently acquired a PCjr with a bunch of software. Machine's very clean. I'm not really that interested in playing with this beast. Should I sit on it as an investment? Is it worth anything now? Dnyone interested? Thanks P Manney Is it illegal to yell "Movie!" in a fire station? Thousands of discounted photo items at http://www.hmcltd.net/pgphoto From elvey at hal.com Mon Apr 26 19:12:30 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Cores, light bulb goes on ... In-Reply-To: <199904262319.AA21026@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199904270012.RAA28363@civic.hal.com> allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > < > Transformer action prior to saturation. > > > No you know what nuts dont work... Hi Although not done on the original cores, you can always increase the fields with more turns. It doesn't invalidate the demonstration. Taking your 7.5 amperes and making ten turns drops it to about 750 ma. It also slows down the circuit by the square of the number of turns though. Dwight From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 26 19:16:22 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: PC Jr References: <004101be8fd7$80acc720$abf5fea9@fujitsu-c350> Message-ID: <372501D6.47D8B112@rain.org> PG Manney wrote: > > I recently acquired a PCjr with a bunch of software. Machine's very clean. > > I'm not really that interested in playing with this beast. Should I sit on > it as an investment? Is it worth anything now? Dnyone interested? Did it come with a monitor, and what other peripherals/options did it come with. The PCjr was fairly easy to get, but I am starting to see fewer of them. Personally, I rather doubt it will ever be a big ticket item but depending on what comes with it, it is probably worth from $10 up to perhaps $50 - $75 now. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 26 19:59:47 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: DEC documentation RUMOR???? In-Reply-To: <199904261645.KAA12204@ws2044.colorado.cirrus.com> (clintw@colorado.cirrus.com) References: <199904261645.KAA12204@ws2044.colorado.cirrus.com> Message-ID: <19990427005947.16802.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I read a web page somewhere that indicated DEC put in the public domain > all the documentation they no longer publish. > > Is this true? Can anyone point me back to the original web page? No, it's not true. They have given permission to reproduce certain software documentation, but they have not put *any* of it into the public domain. There's a big difference. Here's some info I found in John Wilson's FTP archive, excerpted from the file ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp8/doc/README Note that it is restricted to Digtal's customers. I wonder how lawyers interpret that. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 26 20:02:06 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Some things make me want to toss my cookies ... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990426141837.00b16c70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:19:01 -0700) References: <4.1.19990426141837.00b16c70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <19990427010206.16831.qmail@brouhaha.com> > http://www.bccc.com/nancy/memorydress.html Core memory in oscilliscopes? Where did she get that idea? From max82 at surfree.com Mon Apr 26 19:02:30 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: RARE: Original Macintosh found!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990426000747.007229d8@cadvision.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Apr 1999, Mark Gregory wrote: >This system is a bit of a puzzle. As I understand it, a single drive >original Mac was almost unusable, due to lack of RAM and the need for >frequent disk swaps. So I would expect mint condition. However, this system >(Mac, mouse, KB, Imagewriter printer) shows some signs of wear, even though >it was never upgraded to 512K, and there was no second drive with the system. In many years, somebody will be asking the same thing about Windows 95. The answer is, they suffered but used it. It's too expensive a toy to buy and then let it gather dust in a corner. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From max82 at surfree.com Mon Apr 26 19:04:37 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >NO!!!!! >Any responsible computer manufacturer of the time included a reset switch. >But we are talking about IBM. >THERE WAS NO RESET SWITCH ON A REAL UNMODIFIED IBM AT. Well, the C-64 had no reset switch...or are we talking only about business systems? My DECMate III has no reset switch. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From max82 at surfree.com Mon Apr 26 19:08:45 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >I've seen several different AT PSUs from IBM. One of them is certainly a >Gresham Lyons design. Are all of the PSU models documented in the technical manuals? Are they radically different or basically clones? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 26 20:12:15 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Powerlines In-Reply-To: <002701be902d$274e6610$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> (danburrows@mindspring.com) References: <002701be902d$274e6610$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: <19990427011215.16915.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Daniel T. Burrows" wrote: > Close but not quite right. For single phase installations the power company > supplies 2 hots and neutral. This is a center tapped secondary and the > neutral is earthed at the service entrance. No, for split-phase, the power company does not "supply" a neutral from the distribution system. The neutral is *only* tied to the center tap of the secondary and to ground. It is not tied to anything on the primary side of the transformer; that would be bad. > The primary of this transformer > is fed from only 1 high voltage phase. I don't believe this; it doesn't match the descriptions I've read elsewhere. I've always seen it shown in diagrams with the primary connected across two phases of the three-phase. Otherwise you need a high-current return path somewhere else. To even the loading of the phases, the transformers for split-phase service have their primaries distributed between the three possible combinations of the three phases. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 26 20:42:08 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Old computer books? Oh, we shred them! In-Reply-To: <005001be8fe9$a8e22f20$b40a64cb@default> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Apr 1999, Phil Guerney wrote: > Well what I have here is as follows: > TIME-LIFE Books UNDERSTANDING COMPUTERS (C) 1987 > Volumes (each 128 pages long): > Revolution in Science (good history in that one) > The Computerized Society > Computer Images > Computer Security > Artificial Intelligence > Computers and the Cosmos > Space > Memory and Storage > Speed and Power > Communications > The Chipmakers > The Puzzle Master > Computer Basics > The Military Frontier > Robotics > The Personal Computer > Input/Output > Software > Computer Languages > Transportation > The Software Challenge Hmmm, ok. I think I might have a different set then, from earlier in the 80s (I think 1984). This may be a revised, expanded edition. I want one! > There does not seem to be a numbering system such as a volume number > anywhere within or outside the books (such as on the spine). The copyright > page is at the back of each volume (always page 128) and includes a small > paragraph headed "European Edition", so this may not be the same edition > that was sold in the USA? Ah, perhaps. Why do the Europeans get more information than us stupid Americans? I'll have to look at my set to compare number of pages and copyright dates. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 26 20:47:12 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Power connectors In-Reply-To: <8025675F.005DE694.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Apr 1999 Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > I think it's an excellent idea. In fact I have long thought a computer-buff's > guide to power electrics (the mains) would be worth writing. > > But I doubt I'll manage VCF 3 this year. A holiday in CA is not something I do > every year, alas... Aw man, I was hoping you would be able to make it again. It was good having you last year. Oh well, hopefully you'll be able to make it out next year (or maybe you'll win the lottery...if you do, bring Tony with you ;) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Apr 26 21:23:41 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: HP1000M Message-ID: <002201be9055$1f55f720$0101a8c0@jay> Hum.... Thanks for the tip on the seller! My M series is sick, so I was just getting ready to fire off an email asking what cards were in the memory backplane.... with a record like that, I don't think I'll bother (now if it was a 7900A drive, I'd forge ahead anyways )! Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 26 21:26:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Apr 26, 99 08:08:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 789 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990427/c051e21a/attachment.ksh From danburrows at mindspring.com Mon Apr 26 21:33:59 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Powerlines Message-ID: <002201be9056$87106b60$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >"Daniel T. Burrows" wrote: >> Close but not quite right. For single phase installations the power company >> supplies 2 hots and neutral. This is a center tapped secondary and the >> neutral is earthed at the service entrance. > >No, for split-phase, the power company does not "supply" a neutral from the >distribution system. The neutral is *only* tied to the center tap of the >secondary and to ground. It is not tied to anything on the primary side of >the transformer; that would be bad. That is what I was trying to decsribe above. >> The primary of this transformer >> is fed from only 1 high voltage phase. > >I don't believe this; it doesn't match the descriptions I've read elsewhere. >I've always seen it shown in diagrams with the primary connected across two >phases of the three-phase. Otherwise you need a high-current return path >somewhere else. Take a close look at rural areas and there is only 1 High voltage line present. It is fed to the HT input of all the pole transformers. >To even the loading of the phases, the transformers for split-phase service >have their primaries distributed between the three possible combinations of >the three phases. When there are 3 phases available that sometimes is the case. Look closely at the pole transformers and in most cases when there are 2 or more transformers mounted on 1 pole there is only 1 HT input to each transformer. If it were between phases there would be 2 HT inputs. Dan From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 26 21:44:18 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: TWR Swap Meet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Apr 1999, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Grrrrr. I got stuck working until around 3am Friday night and slept until > almost 10am. I did the typical leap out of bed with a burst of profanity, > hoping that the clock would tell me I got my usual 3 hours of rest and > could still make the meet... > > Apologies for missing such a good time; I'll make it next time for sure. > Sellam, you going to be there again next month? It was too bad you couldn't make it. I was looking forward to meeting you and some of the other SoCal geeks (like Mike Ford?) but I did get to meet Dave Dameron. I might try to make it again next month if I don't have too much going on. L.A. is not such a bad place anymore. Its more like I remember it growing up there, which is nice. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From rws at enteract.com Mon Apr 26 22:12:21 1999 From: rws at enteract.com (rws) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Powerlines In-Reply-To: <002201be9056$87106b60$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Apr 1999, Daniel T. Burrows wrote: > >I've always seen it shown in diagrams with the primary connected across two > >phases of the three-phase. Otherwise you need a high-current return path > >somewhere else. > > Take a close look at rural areas and there is only 1 High voltage line > present. > It is fed to the HT input of all the pole transformers. Maybe where you're at, but generally not here (small town Illinois). In the more-populated rural areas (10 or so houses per mile) all 3 phases of the 12kV local loop are run. If the houses are all about the same age, each pole-pig is fed off successive pairs of phases (AB, BC, CA,...). Newer houses jumble this slightly. Rarely, in sparse areas or clusters of houses in the middle of nowhere, a single big pole-pig converts to about 4kV to ground. Then smaller ones make the 234V. > When there are 3 phases available that sometimes is the case. Look closely > at the pole transformers and in most cases when there are 2 or more > transformers mounted on 1 pole there is only 1 HT input to each transformer. > If it were between phases there would be 2 HT inputs. ??? Every place that I've seen that has 2 or 3 12kV-to-234V transformers has them between pairs of phases. Richard rws@enteract.com From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Apr 26 22:19:03 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: More pdp-8 Docs Added Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990426201903.0073b138@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi All: Ten more scanned documents added to the http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8 web site tonight. Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Apr 26 22:22:54 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: PC Jr In-Reply-To: <004101be8fd7$80acc720$abf5fea9@fujitsu-c350> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Apr 1999, PG Manney wrote: > I recently acquired a PCjr with a bunch of software. Machine's very clean. > > I'm not really that interested in playing with this beast. Should I sit on > it as an investment? Is it worth anything now? Dnyone interested? Its a very common machine. It sounds like you have a good example of one. Its nothing special really. I don't have a suggestion for you as far as whether you should keep it or send it on its way. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From donm at cts.com Mon Apr 26 22:44:33 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Powerlines In-Reply-To: <002201be9056$87106b60$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Apr 1999, Daniel T. Burrows wrote: > > > >"Daniel T. Burrows" wrote: > >> Close but not quite right. For single phase installations the power > company > >> supplies 2 hots and neutral. This is a center tapped secondary and the > >> neutral is earthed at the service entrance. > > > >No, for split-phase, the power company does not "supply" a neutral from the > >distribution system. The neutral is *only* tied to the center tap of the > >secondary and to ground. It is not tied to anything on the primary side of > >the transformer; that would be bad. > > > That is what I was trying to decsribe above. > > >> The primary of this transformer > >> is fed from only 1 high voltage phase. > > > >I don't believe this; it doesn't match the descriptions I've read > elsewhere. > >I've always seen it shown in diagrams with the primary connected across two > >phases of the three-phase. Otherwise you need a high-current return path > >somewhere else. > > Take a close look at rural areas and there is only 1 High voltage line > present. > It is fed to the HT input of all the pole transformers. > > > >To even the loading of the phases, the transformers for split-phase service > >have their primaries distributed between the three possible combinations of > >the three phases. > > When there are 3 phases available that sometimes is the case. Look closely > at the pole transformers and in most cases when there are 2 or more > transformers mounted on 1 pole there is only 1 HT input to each transformer. > If it were between phases there would be 2 HT inputs. > > Dan Which, of course, is not to suggest that other pole routings may well carry a different HT phase to achieve that balance. - don From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Apr 26 22:51:53 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: TRW Swaps/CompuCrawls Message-ID: Well.. amplifying what Sellam has written... the very first SoCal CompuCrawl is in the history books. It takes up about two sentences. ;} The Gathering was small but intense... we had big fun, tho. I gave away some lonely equipment to a Good Home, and we played with some of my Geek Toys. I got a cool t-shirt with 'GEEK' emblazoned boldly for all to see and snicker at. Marvin behaved himself for the most part, and law enforcement assistance was thankfully not required at any time during the entire soiree. Since there were several of Us who apparently had to cancel at the last minute, I am strongly considering having another next month, instead of next quarter (september) as I had originally planned. Also, various folks mentioned to me that logistics and/or transportation issues affected their participation. Anyone needing a ride to-from should contact me directly and we'll sort it out. So again: if there is any interest between now and the next SoCal TRW swap meet, on the last Saturday of May (the 29th? 30th?) from local and visiting Listmembers, I will again hold a Vintage Computer open house after the TRW swapmeet and post-swap Brunch, and thereafter, quarterly. Mark Your Calendars! (Use spray paint this time) Cheers John From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Apr 26 23:48:09 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Powerlines References: Message-ID: <017e01be9069$274435a0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: rws To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Tuesday, 27 April 1999 12:42 Subject: Re: Powerlines > > Take a close look at rural areas and there is only 1 High voltage line > > present. > > It is fed to the HT input of all the pole transformers. Same thing is done in rural areas in Oz. They are called SWR lines, which is TLA for Single Wire Run AFAIK. Not sure of the voltage, but I think it's around 8kv. (240v to subscribers) They are somewhat unpopular, and are prone to surges and sags etc. Given the nature of the return path, (ground) and the way it would be affected by weather etc, this is not surprising. 'Normal' mains is delivered to subscribers elsewhere as a single (or two or three - if they can justify it) active, neutral, ground. IIRC, you are allowed a max of 80A per 240v phase. Need is based on Lighting circuits being 8 amp, 1 single standard outlet @ 10A and a HD outlet (for A/C's and the like) @15A. Stoves, Hot water and the like are hardwired to their own circuit and fuse/breaker. Some large homes may need 2 phases, especially now as some of the SAA wiring regulations cut drastically the number of outlets allowed on a single circuit. (Doesn't affect existing installations of course) It's moderately difficult (not to mention expensive) to get a proper 3 phase (415v) outlet installed, ETSA (Electricity Trust of South Australia) simply won't do it unless you can demonstrate you have a real need for it. Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 27 01:16:06 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: XXDP+ 2.5 Message-ID: NOTE: my problems are at the end of this message, got carried away to the extent someone might find this to have some useful info :^) I'm trying to run some tests on my /44 and have been having loads of fun with my lack of doc's on XXDP+. Note, for people in the same boat, I'd recommend Pete Turnbull's notes http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/XXDP.ps Though the best help I've found is having the doc's on the hardware I've tried to test. The /44 Tech Manual says to run 1-11 of the following tests in order (NOTE: I added the XXDP+ column). MAINDEC Operating Title XXDP+ 2.5 Diagnostic Sequence --------------- ------- ------------------------------- ----------- CKK FA 1 11/44 Diagnostic ROM* CKK AA 2 11/44 CPU/EIS KKAAB0.BIC CKK AB 3 11/44 Traps KKABD1.BIC CKK TA 4 11/44 Mem. Mgt. Prt A KKTAB1.BIC CKK TB 5 11/44 Mem. Mgt. Prt B KKTBD0.BIN CZM 9B 6 M9312/11/44 UBI Boot ZM9BE0.BIN CKK UA 7 11/44 UBI Map KKUAE0.BIN CKK KA 8 11/44 KK11-B Cache KKKAC0.BIC CZM SD 9 MSL-M/L Memory ZMSDD0.BIN MS11-L/M/P Memory Diagnostic ZMSPC0.BIC CZD LD 10 DL11-w/MFM SLU ZDLDI0.BIN CKK AC 11 11/44 Power Fail KKACC0.BIC CKF PA 12 FP11-F Part A KFPAD0.BIC CKF PB 13 FP11-F Part B KFPBC0.BIC CKF PC 14 FP11-F Part C KFPCD0.BIC CZK EE 15 PDP-11 CIS Instr. Exerciser ZKEEC0.BIC CZK UA 16 UNIBUS Systems Exerciser Diag. ZKUAE0.BIN CZK UB 17 UNIBUS Exerciser Module ZKUBC0.BIN *Included with the M7098 UBI module. CKFPA ||\/| || |Indicates a series of diagnostics: A= part 1, B=part 2, C=part 3, etc. || | (this is what the PDP-11/44 Tech Manual claims, I'm not convinced || | that it was followed) || Indicates a specific device tested by the diagnostic: || "FP" = Floating Point Diagnostic || "RK" = RK05 (disk diagnostic) |"K" indicates a specific diagnostic for the PDP-11/44 system. "C" indicates a PDP-11 diagnositic (not used on diagnostic disk pack or magnetic tape). = x = Revision Character (alpha) y = Patch Number (0-9) My single biggest problem seems to be stopping a diagnostic once I've started it. So far I've been resorting to stopping the CPU and rebooting, but one would think that there must be a better way, and that I've missed it. My second problem is the first test, I can't find a KKFA*.* test. Is there another test I can run on the diagnostic ROM? #3 is #3, but I think this is proper behavior CKKABD0 11/44 TRAPS NO FLOATING POINT OPTION PRESENT NO CIS OPTION PRESENT CONSOLE 17777707 023252 >>> Problem #4 isn't that big a deal, the "M9312/11/44 UBI Boot" diagnostic complains that the DD and DL ROMS are in as DL and DD, while it wants DD and DL. #5 may or may not be a problem with the cache (real problem is my not knowing how to interpret it). CKKKAC0 11-44 KK11B CACHE RMI REGISTER (G5179) NOT USED-SKIP HI ORDER BIT ADDRESS TEST UNIBUS EXERCISER NOT USED-DMA TESTS NOT PERFORMED END OF PASS # 1 END OF PASS # 2 END OF PASS # 3 I solved #6 by finding and substituting the ZMSPC0 memory test for ZMSDD0. Opps, guess I didn't try step 11, and 12-14 can't be done at the moment as the FP11 isn't installed, and I don't have a CIS for #15, 16&17 both complained. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From jrbrady at mindspring.com Tue Apr 27 00:18:58 1999 From: jrbrady at mindspring.com (Jason Brady) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Mystery UNIBUS Boards? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990426221858.006ab6e4@pop.mindspring.com> Greetings All, Can you help identify these UNIBUS boards? They were found in a BA11-K expansion box in a VAX 11/750. The VAX was used to run the equipment in an MRI trailer. I didn't remove the system and don't know to what type of equipment it was originally connected. 1) Full size genuine DEC hex board, no "M" number on spine. "DIGITAL" and "BSWU-T" etched on front. Two stickers, marked "835084" and "4522 117 2760". 93 TTL chips, 18 PAL chips, 5 DIP switch blocks, two 50-pin connectors for ribbon cables. On rear side, "4522 111 91963" etched and a sticker with "PR32.4B" and "MB6024ET". 2) Plessey Peripheral Systems quad board. Marked with "P/N 703680- 100E" on front, "703679-001 REVB" on rear. 7 chips with stickers "218 101C, 102C, 103C, 104C, 105C, 100 UK30, UK2A". 62 TTL chips. 1 50-pin connector with cable to what appears to be an interface board (#3 below). 3) 8" by 10" board connected to Plessey board above. 2 50-pin connec- tors on top. Etched with "C-FTR", "FDD-FTR", "FTR-FTR". 12 26LS31 & 32 chips, 10 TTL. Instead of card-edge fingers, has 2 3-level male 3x32 pin AMP3485 connectors which plug into corresponding female receptacles in BA11-K box (one group of hex slots replaced with these). Any help identifying these boards is appreciated. Doubt I'll ever use them, but nice to know what they might be! BTW - Posted this inquiry to comp.sys.dec & alt.sys.pdp11 awhile back so it may look familiar. Thanks, Jason Brady jrbrady@mindspring.com Lynnwood, WA From karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au Tue Apr 27 02:19:34 1999 From: karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au (Karl Maftoum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: MVME System Message-ID: Ok, I've finally dusted off this Motorola box I got the other day, it has a MVME-101 CPU Card, A MVME225-2 Memory card and a MVME 319 Controller. It runs OS/9 v2.1, it appears to have been used for some kind of robotics application, but all the other cards have been removed. Does anyone have more info on this box? Cheers Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Karl Maftoum Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia Email: k.maftoum@student.canberra.edu.au From fpp at concentric.net Tue Apr 27 02:46:09 1999 From: fpp at concentric.net (Paul Passmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: PC Jr Message-ID: <001f01be9082$04618240$b3faadce@paul> On Mon, 26 Apr 1999, PG Manney wrote: > I recently acquired a PCjr with a bunch of software. Machine's very clean. > > I'm not really that interested in playing with this beast. Should I sit on > it as an investment? Is it worth anything now? Dnyone interested? It is a relative situation. Value is what is it worth to you or the buyer. A few points about the computer. There are not that many floating around for sale. It was a flop for IBM but it also was IBM's entr?e into the "Home computer" market. This gives it some weight. The PC and its siblings had supplanted the PC jr and nailed the lid on the coffin, but I would hang on to it, it will not become valuable for a while but it is a "place marker" in the history of computers. What did its introduction mean to the industry? Altair- first viable personal computer, Apple I computer, first of the longest lived manufacturer. (Yes IBM has been around longer but not as a PC maker) 1st Sony PC, the design and implementation of the 3.5" diskette, Tandy the first mass market machine not only sold in computer stores, Commodore Pet, First computer to make the cover of a national general circulation magazine (Popular Science) and from a calculator company no less; using calculator keys for the keyboard. The Commodore also set a standard for selling computers to computer dealers in their original selling agreements. Vector Graphics, first computer company founded and run by a woman. Osborne, the computer made by the guru of computer hobbyists and Kaypro, first generally accepted computer for the average business person. Want to know the value of a computer? Is it a piece of hardware or a point of computer history, did it change the way things were done? Good luck. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Apr 27 03:12:30 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <80256760.002D8B72.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> I wrote > BTW Siemens make some torroidal cores down to 1mm thick ferrite, slightly larger > in other materials. RS Components stock some - http://rswww.com/ and go in > through the catalogue: "Electronics", "Transformers/Inductors/Ferrites", > "Ferrites", "Torroids" (sic). There are even data sheets but I didn't manage to > download them. So it seems that RS and I made the same spelling mistake. I think "Toroid" and "Toroidal" are the correct spellings... P. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Apr 27 03:41:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: PC Jr In-Reply-To: <001f01be9082$04618240$b3faadce@paul> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 1999, Paul Passmore wrote: > It is a relative situation. Value is what is it worth to you or the buyer= =2E A > few points about the computer. There are not that many floating around fo= r > sale. It was a flop for IBM but it also was IBM's entr=E9e into the "Home I agree about worth being based on what the ultimate buyer puts it at. But PCjrs are pretty common. Not as common as a Commodore 64, or VIC-20, but I find almost as many PCjrs as I do PCs. They aren't that hard to come across. > computer" market. This gives it some weight. The PC and its siblings had > supplanted the PC jr and nailed the lid on the coffin, but I would hang = on > to it, it will not become valuable for a while but it is a "place marker"= in > the history of computers. What did its introduction mean to the industry= ? That IBM could also produce a horrendous flop. I guess in that respect its significant. > Altair- first viable personal computer, Apple I computer, first of the Oh no, here we go again. :) > longest lived manufacturer. (Yes IBM has been around longer but not as a = PC > maker) 1st Sony PC, the design and implementation of the 3.5" diskette, > Tandy the first mass market machine not only sold in computer stores, > Commodore Pet, First computer to make the cover of a national general > circulation magazine (Popular Science) and from a calculator company no Commodore was a business furniture company before they were a calculator company. > less; using calculator keys for the keyboard. The Commodore also set a > standard for selling computers to computer dealers in their original sell= ing > agreements. Vector Graphics, first computer company founded and run by a > woman. Osborne, the computer made by the guru of computer hobbyists and > Kaypro, first generally accepted computer for the average business person= =2E > Want to know the value of a computer? Is it a piece of hardware or a poin= t > of computer history, did it change the way things were done? Good luck. A particular computer's significance does not necessarily reflect on what someone will pay for it. Indeed, what people are paying seems totally based on whim these days. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.= com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Tue Apr 27 06:20:44 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: More pdp-8 Docs Added Message-ID: <199904271120.HAA28912@golden.net> Thank you man. Lots of work followed by lots of benefit. Yours in good faith. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Apr 27 06:20:50 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: References: <19990422065003.20182.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199904271120.VAA20355@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 08:41 22/04/99 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >However with 256Words of core working building a simple TTL machine around >it would be of some educational value. It is however snough space to run >practical demonstration programs. There was a construction project in a local electronics mag (Electronics Australia) around the same time as the original Altair articles describing how to build a computer closely based on the PDP-8. This system had 256 words of memory. I should dig up the articles and this would probably be a neat starting point for a CDS (Core Demonstration System). Please note: CDS is a trademark of HOC2 (Huw's Old Computer Company - cf EMC2) :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 27 08:20:43 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Storage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199904271121.NAA17805@horus.mch.sni.de> BTW - we are talking about historic ways of memory, here is a complete new way of using an old media for todays storage http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/gas-19.03.99-000/ (use babelfish - althrough bad, I think still readable) For non Europeans, TESA(-Film) is over here the equivalent of SCOTCH(-tape) - and like SCOTCH it's so common that the brand name evolved into a generic term. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Apr 27 06:23:08 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: References: <990422083015.20c00997@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199904271123.VAA20366@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 08:58 22/04/99 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >Use pulse coupleing so each runs at it's range. Also I do have a basic >design for a TTT machine using neons and 2d21 thyratrons. > >I feel personally that would be good for demonstrating some for the other >forms of logic used. > >Then again someone would want that interfaced to PCI too. But it would give your PC flashing lights and would probably keep the office nice and toasty warm during the winter. "I love the sound of neons in the morning" Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Apr 27 06:34:05 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199904271134.VAA20350@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 13:18 22/04/99 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >As one that is old enough and personally active doing that then >makes Donald's minuteman-1 missle computer (surplus) my first contact with >a personal computer (micro be dammed for the moment). That was right >before the intel part hit the news. Video console, hell we were happy to >see a flipflop do exactly that! Well I've always argued that this argument is meaningless as no one can agree on a definition. So when asked "what was the first PC" my usual reply is EDSAC (or one of the other systems of similar age). One user at a time, limited everything, somewhat expensive, but still a personal computer as you could make it do exactly what you wanted (well, occasionally anyway :-). Please note, I'm no where near old enough to ever have used EDSAC - the first computer I saw was in either 1964 or 1965 when I was 9 or 10. Unfortunately, I've never been able to establish exactly what computer this was - the only details I can provide is that it was the only computer at Keele University (UK). Any help on identifying this system appreciated! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Apr 27 06:50:07 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Electrostatic Plotters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199904271150.VAA20404@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 02:20 23/04/99 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >An amazing-ish machine that does 200dpi (before there were desktop laser >printers, this was a high resolution). The problems are that the toner >feed system/pump often blocks (and unblocking it is a pain - the toner >tastes horrible, so the old suck-it-and-see method isn't pleasant), and >the solvent fumes given off as the toner dries seems to fill the computer >room... Another drawback is that the plots fade with time. I did all the graphs for my Masters thesis on our DEC-10. The plot files were then transferred via a home grown network to our PDP-15 which had a Gould Electrostatic plotter. Looking back I'm surprised this ever worked! Recently I decided to replot the graphs using one of our VAXes. Pity regenerating the data gave completely different results - I've been too scared to check if this is just different floating point representations causing "minor anomalies" or whether the original plots and/or data are just plain wrong. Fortunately, no one else has noticed... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Apr 27 07:20:03 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Some things make me want to toss my cookies ... Message-ID: <990427082003.23c00166@trailing-edge.com> >> http://www.bccc.com/nancy/memorydress.html > >Core memory in oscilliscopes? Where did she get that idea? She also talks about medical equipment, which causes me to believe that most of the core memory she gets comes out of pulse height analyzers from the late 60's to the mid 70's. These look a lot like oscilliscopes to the untrained idea (they have a CRT, lots of knobs, BNC jacks, etc.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Apr 27 07:26:55 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: XXDP+ 2.5 Message-ID: <990427082655.23c00166@trailing-edge.com> >My single biggest problem seems to be stopping a diagnostic once I've >started it. So far I've been resorting to stopping the CPU and rebooting, >but one would think that there must be a better way, and that I've missed >it. You don't have to reboot; you can often just halt the CPU and start up XXDP+ again at the restart address (this is given at boot time as a message on the console.) Some diagnostics (especially the really extensive memory diagnostics) wipe out the XXDP+ monitor and you do, indeed, have to reboot. > CKK FA 1 11/44 Diagnostic ROM* >My second problem is the first test, I can't find a KKFA*.* test. Is there >another test I can run on the diagnostic ROM? The diagnostic ROM *is* the test :-). This is the "big" bipolar PROM located near the boot PROM's. And the test is executed at startup. #3 is #3, but I think this is proper behavior CKKABD0 11/44 TRAPS NO FLOATING POINT OPTION PRESENT NO CIS OPTION PRESENT CONSOLE 17777707 023252 >>> >#5 may or may not be a problem with the cache (real problem is my not >knowing how to interpret it). > >CKKKAC0 11-44 KK11B CACHE > >RMI REGISTER (G5179) NOT USED-SKIP HI ORDER BIT ADDRESS TEST The G5179 is the PDP-11/44 Remote Memory Interface (an extremely rare option). You don't have it :-). >UNIBUS EXERCISER NOT USED-DMA TESTS NOT PERFORMED There was also an optional Unibus exerciser that could be installed instead of the normal terminator. These aren't all that rare - they're very commonly found inside 11/750's. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From danburrows at mindspring.com Tue Apr 27 09:48:48 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Powerlines Message-ID: <01f001be90bf$18072fb0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >> > Take a close look at rural areas and there is only 1 High voltage line >> > present. >> > It is fed to the HT input of all the pole transformers. > >Same thing is done in rural areas in Oz. They are called SWR lines, which >is TLA for Single Wire Run AFAIK. >Not sure of the voltage, but I think it's around 8kv. (240v to subscribers) >They are somewhat unpopular, and are prone to surges and sags etc. >Given the nature of the return path, (ground) and the way it would be >affected by weather etc, this is not surprising. I would think it would have a lot more surges and sags than it does. I guess they manage to keep the HT runs short enough however. I have several 1 to 3 KVA UPS's here and rarely (except during storms) do they kick in. Boy does it get noisy then with all their alarm beepers going.:) Can't wait to move them out once I make room (and get batteries for) the 10 KVA online UPS I picked up. The HT lines I am on are around 14.5KV. The typical distribution lines I have found vary from12KV to 14.5 in the different areas I have lived. Currently in North Carolina. Dan From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 27 10:35:25 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: XXDP+ 2.5 In-Reply-To: <990427082655.23c00166@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Apr 27, 99 08:26:55 am Message-ID: <199904271535.IAA08805@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1515 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990427/07c48ae0/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Apr 27 10:57:55 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: XXDP+ 2.5 Message-ID: <990427115755.20c00ed6@trailing-edge.com> >> > CKK FA 1 11/44 Diagnostic ROM* >> >My second problem is the first test, I can't find a KKFA*.* test. Is there >> >another test I can run on the diagnostic ROM? >> >> The diagnostic ROM *is* the test :-). This is the "big" bipolar >> PROM located near the boot PROM's. And the test is executed at startup. >OK, I'll buy that, BUT why was there a Diagnostic for the Diagnostic ROM at >one point? It does seem rather redundant though. I think you're taking the table too literally: the Diagnostic ROM *is* the Diagnostic ROM test :-). Generically, it's a dirt-simple memory test which also gives the CPU a bit of a exercise (simple bit manipulation and looping) in the process. At least some of the Diagnostic ROM's also do a checksum on themselves (this is actually a requirement for firmware in some European countries) but I don't know if the 11/44's ROM does this. >> >CKKKAC0 11-44 KK11B CACHE >> > >> >RMI REGISTER (G5179) NOT USED-SKIP HI ORDER BIT ADDRESS TEST >> >> The G5179 is the PDP-11/44 Remote Memory Interface (an extremely >> rare option). You don't have it :-). >Ah, good, this was the most disturbing of the messages I got. *Generally*, G-series modules referred to by XXDP+ are modules with special diagnostic purposes. These G-modules are often simulators or exercisers, and in many cases were not often found outside of the manufacturing and repair facilities. Other G-series modules are the components of low-level formatters and dedicated hardware test jigs. Many of these modules, according to the hardware indices I have at hand, were custom-wrapped boards produced in extremely small (sometimes only 1 or 2) quantities, yet they still have G-numbers. >Now I've just got to pour through the doc's for the peripherals so I can >figure out what tests to run on them. For at least your RL11 and RL02's: ZRLG?? Controller Test #1 ZRLH?? Controller Test #2 ZRLI?? Drive Test #1 ZRLJ?? Drive Test #2 ZRLK?? Performance Exerciser ZRLL?? Drive Compatiblity Test ZRLM?? Bad Sector File Utility Running the drive tests or performance exerciser with multiple drives at the same time produces an impressive light show as all the unit lights blink in both regular and random patterns! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rexstout at uswest.net Tue Apr 27 11:28:16 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: RARE: Original Macintosh found!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990426000747.007229d8@cadvision.com> Message-ID: >No mention of memory size. But I would guess that it doesn't mention the >memory size because no size other than 128K was contemplated; i.e. this is >an original Mac. Any other way to check? BTW, were the "Programmer's >switches" (Interrupt and Reset) de-emphasized after the original Mac? My >Mac Plus has the same microswitches inside the case, but I had never heard >of them before. Programmers switches are fairly common. My IIvx had them built in right at the front, older models like the II, SE, Plus had to have a plastic tab stuck in the side to hit the small switches on the motherboard. Very useful item, especially for programmers. Or anyone that often crashes their computer. Newer computers like the PowerMac 6500 I'm using now don't really have switches, it's in the software. Hold down the command key and hit the power key is interrupt, command-control-power is reset. It helps a LOT if you have MacsBug installed(in one of the developers dirs at ftp.apple.com, 6.5.3 for older machines, 6.5.4a? for MacOS 8) >This system is a bit of a puzzle. As I understand it, a single drive >original Mac was almost unusable, due to lack of RAM and the need for >frequent disk swaps. So I would expect mint condition. However, this system >(Mac, mouse, KB, Imagewriter printer) shows some signs of wear, even though >it was never upgraded to 512K, and there was no second drive with the system. Ha! Not quite unusable, but VERY close. I managed to get on a few BBS's with MacTerminal, a Mac 128 and an old 300 baud Apple modem. Only ones I could get into were two C-64's and a TI-99 that were all using 2400bps modems. Only things that would talk to a 300bps modem. As long as you don't mind waiting about 30 seconds to download each screen. And MacWrite (and MacDraw) were very useable, as long as you printed it out and didn't save too many files on the disk. -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 27 12:52:41 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Powerlines In-Reply-To: <002201be9056$87106b60$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> (danburrows@mindspring.com) References: <002201be9056$87106b60$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: <19990427175241.21720.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Daniel T. Burrows" wrote: > Take a close look at rural areas and there is only 1 High voltage line > present. > It is fed to the HT input of all the pole transformers. [...] > When there are 3 phases available that sometimes is the case. Look closely > at the pole transformers and in most cases when there are 2 or more > transformers mounted on 1 pole there is only 1 HT input to each transformer. > If it were between phases there would be 2 HT inputs. How can the transformer possibly work if the primary is only connected to one HT line? What is the other side of the primary connected to? Where's the return path? From danburrows at mindspring.com Tue Apr 27 13:08:50 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Powerlines Message-ID: <033c01be90d9$eb431e60$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> > >How can the transformer possibly work if the primary is only connected to one >HT line? What is the other side of the primary connected to? Where's the >return path? Earth From elvey at hal.com Tue Apr 27 14:00:32 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: Powerlines In-Reply-To: <033c01be90d9$eb431e60$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: <199904271900.MAA01519@civic.hal.com> "Daniel T. Burrows" wrote: > > > >How can the transformer possibly work if the primary is only connected to > one > >HT line? What is the other side of the primary connected to? Where's the > >return path? > > > Earth Hi Daniel I don't know about where you come from but in my state, the power company is required to keep the ground current to a minumum. The smallest power line I've see was two wires. Much of the older telegraph lines used ground return. I don't think it would be good for general power distribution. They also used ground return on many telephone setups. This reminds me of a story I once heard: A phone repairman heard of this dog that could predict when the phone would ring. A few seconds before the bell rang, the dog would let out a howl. He had to see this magic dog. He when to the old ladies house and he found the dog chained to the telephone box on the side of the house. He then realized how the dog knew. You see, it was winter and the ground was frozen at the box. This meant that when a ring came in, it didn't have enough current to make the bell ring but there was enough current to give the dog a strong shock through the chain. The poor dog would get a nasty shock and urinate on the ground. On the next ring, the urine would provide enough conduction that the bell would ring. That is the story of the magic dog. Dwight Dwight From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Apr 27 14:29:52 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: When stuff has to go In-Reply-To: References: <004d01be832b$bfca6f60$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: The unfortunate side of our pasttime is that eventually we run out of room, and something has to go. Its a no brainer for commodity items like generic monitors, easy come, easy go, and often profitable. Same for the really odd bits, you keep them forever if they seem the least bit interesting, well maybe not. What about the rest, the stuff you take to a swapmeet and nobody looks twice at. Case in point, I was dumpster diving the other day, and pulled out some IBM 3812 laserprinter toner refills, a HP Scanjet isa I/F card, and some weird tungsten HP plotter bits and pens. It just didn't seem right to leave this stuff behind as I harvested a few choice shipping boxes, but eventually I will have to question my judgement. I am wondering about creating a list of last resort, with the catchy title of 99 cents and shipping, where every item listed would be 99 cents and actual shipping costs (ie token payment, but it gets a home). From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Apr 27 14:59:40 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:36 2005 Subject: When stuff has to go In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Apr 27, 1999 12:29:52 pm" Message-ID: <199904271959.TAA14203@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > Case in point, I was dumpster diving the other day, and pulled out some IBM > 3812 laserprinter toner refills, a HP Scanjet isa I/F card, and some weird > tungsten HP plotter bits and pens. It just didn't seem right to leave this > stuff behind as I harvested a few choice shipping boxes, but eventually I > will have to question my judgement. Tungsten pens? Are these refillable pens that would work in a HP 7576 plotter (i may be slightly wrong on that model number, but there are quite a few that use similar pens). > > I am wondering about creating a list of last resort, with the catchy title > of 99 cents and shipping, where every item listed would be 99 cents and > actual shipping costs (ie token payment, but it gets a home). > Go for it. -Lawrence LeMay From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Apr 27 15:18:02 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Available: Versatec Message-ID: <014d01be90eb$0d89c6c0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> In one of the HP 21MXE machines I received recently, there is a Versatec printer interface. I have no need for it at all. It consists of about 6 or 8 interface cards, plus a rackmount box. From what I can tell, it was used to hook up a versatec plotter. It also *APPEARS* to have a parallel interface on the box, but I don't know any particulars, this may not be correct. If someone has a real use for it, they're welcome to have it for shipping costs. However, if no one claims it, I will likely strip off the front panel switches on the rackmount box (which are the authentic style for my Nicolet-80 which has some non-authentic front panel switches installed by the last user) and pitch the rest. If interested, just email me for particulars. Jay West From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Apr 27 16:06:19 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: When stuff has to go In-Reply-To: References: < <004d01be832b$bfca6f60$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990427140619.00979bf0@mail.sfu.ca> At 12:29 PM 27/04/99 -0700, you wrote: >I am wondering about creating a list of last resort, with the catchy title >of 99 cents and shipping, where every item listed would be 99 cents and >actual shipping costs (ie token payment, but it gets a home). This is a great idea. I'd have stuff for this list myself. That old terminal or board that you just don't want to throw out, etc. Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 27 16:17:10 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Powerlines References: <033c01be90d9$eb431e60$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: <37262956.2C65B136@rain.org> "Daniel T. Burrows" wrote: > > > > >How can the transformer possibly work if the primary is only connected to > one > >HT line? What is the other side of the primary connected to? Where's the > >return path? > > Earth I had an electronics tech that worked for me a number of years, and we were working on some control circuits that had only one wire between two panels. In answering the question as to how the path was completed, his answer (I hope tongue-in-cheek) was through the air. I am assuming here that "Earth" was also said tongue-in-cheek! From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Apr 27 16:21:53 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: When stuff has to go In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990427140619.00979bf0@mail.sfu.ca> from Kevin McQuiggin at "Apr 27, 1999 02:06:19 pm" Message-ID: <199904272121.VAA14407@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > At 12:29 PM 27/04/99 -0700, you wrote: > >I am wondering about creating a list of last resort, with the catchy title > >of 99 cents and shipping, where every item listed would be 99 cents and > >actual shipping costs (ie token payment, but it gets a home). > > This is a great idea. I'd have stuff for this list myself. That old > terminal or board that you just don't want to throw out, etc. > > Kevin > Especially if its not limited to 10 year old stuff. I have all these Microsoft manuals and CD's for learning about Microsoft NT 4.0 (mainly administration stuff)... What i'm gonna do with 8-10 sets of this stuff is puzzing me to no end. -Lawrence LeMay From clintw at colorado.cirrus.com Tue Apr 27 16:35:21 1999 From: clintw at colorado.cirrus.com (Clint Wolff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: When stuff has to go Message-ID: <199904272135.PAA12683@ws2044.colorado.cirrus.com> I'd kick in ten buck or so for a picture of the bonfire :) > > Especially if its not limited to 10 year old stuff. I have all these > Microsoft manuals and CD's for learning about Microsoft NT 4.0 > (mainly administration stuff)... What i'm gonna do with 8-10 sets > of this stuff is puzzing me to no end. > > -Lawrence LeMay > From danburrows at mindspring.com Tue Apr 27 16:37:20 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Powerlines Message-ID: <04dc01be90f6$27b991a0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> I agree in principle but I just double checked my memory and just looked at my HT feed. It is only connected to the HT line and then drops down into a conduit and under ground for the ~800 feet to the pedistal mounted transformer. There is only the 1 connection at the pole. A friend of mine used to burry lines for the local phone company and has hit on occasion (when the locator screwed up) the 14KV drops and said all he ever finds is a single wire from the result. He did say it is impressive when it gets shorted however. He has melted teeth off the backhoe bucket and his ears hurt for a while afterwords. It also works wonders on the ditch witch teeth and the vibrating plow blades. Even though the power drops are supposed to be a minimum of 3 feet down that is not always the case. Dan > I don't know about where you come from but in my state, >the power company is required to keep the ground current to >a minumum. The smallest power line I've see was two wires. >Much of the older telegraph lines used ground return. I don't >think it would be good for general power distribution. They also >used ground return on many telephone setups. > This reminds me of a story I once heard: > A phone repairman heard of this dog that could predict >when the phone would ring. A few seconds before the bell >rang, the dog would let out a howl. > He had to see this magic dog. > He when to the old ladies house and he found the dog chained >to the telephone box on the side of the house. He then realized >how the dog knew. You see, it was winter and the ground was >frozen at the box. This meant that when a ring came in, it >didn't have enough current to make the bell ring but there >was enough current to give the dog a strong shock through >the chain. The poor dog would get a nasty shock and urinate >on the ground. On the next ring, the urine would provide >enough conduction that the bell would ring. > That is the story of the magic dog. >Dwight > >Dwight > From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Apr 27 16:49:29 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: When stuff has to go In-Reply-To: <199904272121.VAA14407@thorin.cs.umn.edu> References: <3.0.5.32.19990427140619.00979bf0@mail.sfu.ca> from Kevin McQuiggin at "Apr 27, 1999 02:06:19 pm" Message-ID: >> At 12:29 PM 27/04/99 -0700, you wrote: >> >I am wondering about creating a list of last resort, with the catchy title >> >of 99 cents and shipping, where every item listed would be 99 cents and >> >actual shipping costs (ie token payment, but it gets a home). >> >> This is a great idea. I'd have stuff for this list myself. That old >> terminal or board that you just don't want to throw out, etc. >> >> Kevin >> > >Especially if its not limited to 10 year old stuff. I have all these >Microsoft manuals and CD's for learning about Microsoft NT 4.0 >(mainly administration stuff)... What i'm gonna do with 8-10 sets >of this stuff is puzzing me to no end. > >-Lawrence LeMay The more I think about it, the more it seems like a usenet newsgroup might be a better idea. alt.marketplace.99cent or comp.sys.marketplace.99cent. Charter would be simple, Usual drivel. All items must be 99 cents or less. Shipping must be actual cost. Good home clause, seller can restrict offer to only buyers who agree not to resell for more than 99 cents, or to scrap the unit. From danburrows at mindspring.com Tue Apr 27 16:49:32 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Powerlines Message-ID: <04f101be90f7$d80a0610$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >> >How can the transformer possibly work if the primary is only connected to >> one >> >HT line? What is the other side of the primary connected to? Where's the >> >return path? >> >> Earth > >I had an electronics tech that worked for me a number of years, and we were >working on some control circuits that had only one wire between two panels. >In answering the question as to how the path was completed, his answer (I >hope tongue-in-cheek) was through the air. I am assuming here that "Earth" >was also said tongue-in-cheek! > It is the actual way they do it here. See my prior post from looking at the pole feed. Dan From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Apr 27 17:26:11 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: When stuff has to go In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Apr 27, 1999 02:49:29 pm" Message-ID: <199904272226.RAA29355@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > > The more I think about it, the more it seems like a usenet newsgroup might > be a better idea. alt.marketplace.99cent or comp.sys.marketplace.99cent. > > Charter would be simple, > > Usual drivel. > > All items must be 99 cents or less. > Shipping must be actual cost. > Good home clause, seller can restrict offer to only buyers who agree not to > resell for more than 99 cents, or to scrap the unit. > alt.five&dime From svs at ropnet.ru Tue Apr 27 18:44:08 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: When stuff has to go In-Reply-To: ; from Mike Ford on Tue, Apr 27, 1999 at 12:29:52PM -0700 References: <004d01be832b$bfca6f60$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <19990428034408.25792@firepower> On Tue, Apr 27, 1999 at 12:29:52PM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > Case in point, I was dumpster diving the other day, and pulled out some IBM > 3812 laserprinter toner refills, a HP Scanjet isa I/F card, and some weird HP ScanJet FAQ says that this adapter is unbelievably RARE. Perhaps you should put it on $AUCTION_SITE and earn a small fortune? -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From donm at cts.com Tue Apr 27 18:48:16 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Powerlines In-Reply-To: <04dc01be90f6$27b991a0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 1999, Daniel T. Burrows wrote: > I agree in principle but I just double checked my memory and just looked at > my HT feed. It is only connected to the HT line and then drops down into a > conduit and under ground for the ~800 feet to the pedistal mounted > transformer. There is only the 1 connection at the pole. A friend of mine > used to burry lines for the local phone company and has hit on occasion > (when the locator screwed up) the 14KV drops and said all he ever finds is a > single wire from the result. He did say it is impressive when it gets > shorted however. He has melted teeth off the backhoe bucket and his ears > hurt for a while afterwords. It also works wonders on the ditch witch teeth > and the vibrating plow blades. Even though the power drops are supposed to > be a minimum of 3 feet down that is not always the case. > > Dan I've just gotta ask! Does it bring the worms to the surface when it rains? - don From danburrows at mindspring.com Tue Apr 27 19:12:39 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Powerlines Message-ID: <056b01be910c$6fab6090$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> > >I've just gotta ask! Does it bring the worms to the surface when it >rains? > - don I have never looked but I suppose it might. I have a 400A service and sometimes I do a fair job of loading it. The transformer ped is out of the way so I rarely go closer than 30 feet from it. They also must put the ground rod(s) inside the for safety (hate to think what it would be like if the ground got cut on the primary). I have never seen them but they have to be there somewhere. Dan From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 27 21:15:23 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: When stuff has to go In-Reply-To: <199904272121.VAA14407@thorin.cs.umn.edu> References: <3.0.5.32.19990427140619.00979bf0@mail.sfu.ca> from Kevin McQuiggin at "Apr 27, 1999 02:06:19 pm" Message-ID: >Especially if its not limited to 10 year old stuff. I have all these >Microsoft manuals and CD's for learning about Microsoft NT 4.0 >(mainly administration stuff)... What i'm gonna do with 8-10 sets >of this stuff is puzzing me to no end. Fill pot holes? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Apr 27 21:31:44 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: When stuff has to go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > The more I think about it, the more it seems like a usenet newsgroup might > be a better idea. alt.marketplace.99cent or comp.sys.marketplace.99cent. > > Charter would be simple, > > Usual drivel. > > All items must be 99 cents or less. > Shipping must be actual cost. > Good home clause, seller can restrict offer to only buyers who agree not to > resell for more than 99 cents, or to scrap the unit. I think its a great idea. I hope you carry through with it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 27 23:32:57 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Powerlines In-Reply-To: <04dc01be90f6$27b991a0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: Daniel T. Burrows wrote: >transformer. There is only the 1 connection at the pole. A friend of mine >used to burry lines for the local phone company and has hit on occasion >(when the locator screwed up) the 14KV drops and said all he ever finds is a >single wire from the result. He did say it is impressive when it gets >shorted however. He has melted teeth off the backhoe bucket and his ears >hurt for a while afterwords. It also works wonders on the ditch witch teeth >and the vibrating plow blades. Even though the power drops are supposed to >be a minimum of 3 feet down that is not always the case. Reminds me of when I was working as an Electrician on a Frigate, we were in Charleston, getting ready to shift from ships power to shore power. Thankfully it was the senior Electrician at the switchboard that time and not me :^) He did something wrong, and tried to power the city of Charleston. IIRC, a Frigate runs 3 shore power cables. Those cables are 4-5 inches across, and have 3-Phase power going through them. Well, he blew those cables up quite nicely, and a good portion of the ships CO2 extiguishers were rushed to the pier and used. There were a LOT of unhappy people as a result of this. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Apr 27 19:30:59 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Great Find ! Message-ID: <199904280430.AAA13534@smtp.interlog.com> Doing a casual dumpster dive this eve and found a box with Vic-1520 Colour Printer Plotter. NIB including manual and cables. Unopened tube containing the 4 colour nibs. Dont know if they're dried out but they're water-based. An MJB H8401 4 socket game-port expander and 40/80 converter in a really sturdy metal case with 6-led select switch and reset. C= 802 printer like new. New parallel card for Apple ll with cable and lle socket plus typed manual from PC Wares . What looks to be a 1/2 ht. 5 1/4 Apple ll floppy in a 1541 case usual All cable but with a different non-apple controller card inside ?? A Bantam paperback manual on the Timex-Sinclair 1000 and a couple of copied mmanuals (Oxford Pascal for C64, Spinnaker), a package from Quantum Link with a discount coupon. Wonder if AOL would honor it ? :^)) Made my day ! ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 28 00:09:23 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Intergraph 6400 References: Message-ID: <37269803.1E91A82B@rain.org> A friend of mine sent me the following, and I told him I would post it to the list to see if anyone here can help him. Please contact him directly; his email address is jay@west.net. Thanks. Yes, if you could. A mouse would be nice too. It's an Intergraph 6400, keyboard is an 8-pin mini-DIN, mouse connector liiks like a regular 9-pin PC mouse escept the mouse has boy pins instead of girls. Alternatively if someone in the So. Cal area has one of these boat anchors (without the matching boat) and wants to get rid of it our sys admin might be willing to take it off of his hands. He's either a masochist or museum-curator-in-training... We actually got it working, can see console output on the serial port but need the keyboard and probably mouse to get it to single-user mode during the boot sequence. And if anyone has a key for the switch-lock that would be extra-sweet. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 28 01:13:33 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Great Find ! In-Reply-To: <199904280430.AAA13534@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: > Doing a casual dumpster dive this eve and found a box with > > Vic-1520 Colour Printer Plotter. NIB including manual and cables. Unopened >tube containing the 4 colour nibs. Dont know if they're dried out but they're >water-based. I believe that you can still get the pins for these, I think they're orderable via Radio Shack. Someone else on the list probably has better info on this. Neat little plotter. I had one with my VIC-20 and wrote a simple line editor so I could print out to it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From red at bears.org Wed Apr 28 00:50:30 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: stupid vax tricks Message-ID: ok, tonight's stupid vax trick is deciphering the wonderous boot messages. I've gotten the SPX card I was supposed to have, and things are looking much better now than they had been before. But (always the 'but'!) The boot fails in an entirely different manner now. Tests A, 3, and 2 give a '_' result which as I understand means whatever it was testing wasn't found to test. Test 1 gives a '?' and I get this message: ? 6 80A1 0000.4001 ?? 1 00C0 0011.700E >>> continue ?24 UNXINT 00010000 041F0000 01C and then nothing more. If I run the proper 'show' command (forgot which one I used) the disks spin up (RZ23 and RZ24), and 'show boot' indicates it wants to boot from the RZ24. Help! I really do not know what I'm doing. (: ok r. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Apr 27 11:16:51 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Cores, light bulb goes on ... Message-ID: <80256760.0059E3E2.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >< >< +--+ >< | | >< | | >< +--+ >< +--+ >< +--+ > > Transformer action prior to saturation. > > > No you know what nuts dont work... I don't usually have trouble with American English, but I must confess this baffles me. Does it mean something like "Now you know why nuts don't work"? :-) >< +--+ >< | | >< | | >< +--+ >< +--+ >< +--+ >< > Yep. Watching that spring snap in interesting on a scope. Those nuts are > slow too! Try a bunch of other materials now that your set up... Hows this for an idea. If you find that the toroidal ferrites that Siemens and people make don't have enough hysteresis, why not go to the other extreme and try the stuff magnets are made of. Ring magnets as used for loudspeakers and things are probably a bit large :-) - I wonder if it's possible to drill a hole down a bar magnet and then cut slices off. For mass production, I'm sure the magnet manufacturers would sell you the stuff unmagnetised... >< 1) Do you want your pulses to be long enough to switch the >< core exactly, or longer? (eg does writing a zero just cancel >< a one or does it cancel the one and write a zero in its place?) > > I forget. Perhaps now you have a test rig you can try different pulse widths as well... >< 2) Why not just gate the write one current pulse? That would save >< on the inhibit current stuff. > > well you have to know what your writing back and to do that you have to > read it first. Hence the common write after read cycle on many machines > from the era of core. I think what he meant was: Rather than sending write current through all core planes and inhibit current back through those to which you don't want to write, why not send write current only through those planes to which you want to write? My initial guess was that you might connect the write wires of several planes in series, and have a single driver for the lot. But then I realised that this would be very difficult to drive - the voltage required to drive a given current would depend on what you were writing - or worse still, what you were reading! So why is it done this way? >< 3) What properties of a material make it easier to switch at lower >< currents? I don't want to build a core plane with nuts if I need >< 8 amps to switch them. > > Good magnetic conductors that hold their magnetizm. Some steels, ferrites, > cobalt alloys, alnico, a few rare earths. Try some of those ferrite beads > used for bypassing in RF work. The other property that affects this is size. The smaller the core, the less current it takes to magnetise it. Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Apr 27 11:26:53 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <80256760.005ACF86.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >< > > Yep, That would be good to watch but that's really a demo of the fields > around conductors (imporant building block). I actually meant to take the demo one step further. Each compass needle has its own magnetic field. Put them close enough together and (with luck) the N end of one needle will attract the S end of the other. Put several of these compases in a ring, and the needles will point around the ring, whether or not there is a current flowing down a wire in the middle. And there are two stable states, just like a core. With (even more) luck, you can flip between states with a current. Just like core. Worth a try? This weekend I shall see if I can find some cheap, small compasses in a toy shop or somewhere... Philip. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Apr 28 02:48:41 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: rt-11 (ht-11) help Message-ID: <4.1.19990428004733.009f72c0@mcmanis.com> Ok, I booted a disk labelled "HT-11B distribution" on my H-11 and it comes up to the "." prompt. But not much else. (dir doesn't work for example) Is there a clue page somewhere ? --Chuck From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Apr 28 01:33:35 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: **** RARE ***** ISA card In-Reply-To: <19990428034408.25792@firepower> References: ; from Mike Ford on Tue, Apr 27, 1999 at 12:29:52PM -0700 Message-ID: >On Tue, Apr 27, 1999 at 12:29:52PM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > >> Case in point, I was dumpster diving the other day, and pulled out some IBM >> 3812 laserprinter toner refills, a HP Scanjet isa I/F card, and some weird > >HP ScanJet FAQ says that this adapter is unbelievably RARE. Perhaps you >should put it on $AUCTION_SITE and earn a small fortune? > >-- >Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru **** RARE ***** ISA card, will trade for small plane or country I don't want to be the reason some poor guy out in the world stops using a piece of equipment due to the cost of some critical part that I have. OTOH if there are TWO such people needing the item, I see no reason why the one that "needs" it the most doesn't get it. BTW the card is a HP 48L REV A 88290-66501, the fingers look ISA to me, the connector looks DB25F, and the label on the bracket says Scanjet I/F card. What exactly is this, just a scanner controller card? From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Apr 28 01:48:48 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: When stuff has to go In-Reply-To: References: <199904272121.VAA14407@thorin.cs.umn.edu> <3.0.5.32.19990427140619.00979bf0@mail.sfu.ca> from Kevin McQuiggin at Message-ID: >>Especially if its not limited to 10 year old stuff. I have all these >>Microsoft manuals and CD's for learning about Microsoft NT 4.0 >>(mainly administration stuff)... What i'm gonna do with 8-10 sets >>of this stuff is puzzing me to no end. > >Fill pot holes? Do you really want the traction and safety of your car depending on a MicroSoft product? Better to store it with nuclear waste. From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Apr 28 02:28:35 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Great Find ! In-Reply-To: <199904280430.AAA13534@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: > Doing a casual dumpster dive this eve and found a box with Great haul, I may have to revive my monthly Golden Gloves dumpster diving competion from another list I am on. Golden Gloves, tm playtex, the rubber gloves more dumpster diver prefer. From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Apr 28 03:52:55 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Spring cleaning wave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Must be a wave of spring cleaning going on, during a visit to a nice local salvage yard I noticed much movement was going on. Turns out next week a big truck will pay a visit and ALL the old stuff is going. Former items of endless dickering, were now "flexibly" priced so I bought a trunk load of junk. With of course a few bits of treasure. Central Point copy card floppy controller, (2) 4869 external floppy drives, (is a 4865 3.5" drive interesting?), an extender card (about 6x8 inches I guessed it might be S100?) with a ribbon cable to proto board and wire wrapped sockets, 2/3 of a shoebox of 5.25 floppies for a Toshiba T100 CP/M computer, basket case stylewriter 1200, and misc stuff. Big iron just rolling into the yard, 4 of those baby rack chassis, one a MicroVAX II, and the rest each holding 3 or 4 HP 7945 computers all daisychained together with that weird HP skinny centronics looking connector. A monitor, keyboard, and a couple HP mice also present, so I assume its a working system. What the heck is it? I looked one or two of the 7945 boxes over, and didn't learn much. I think they also said they were 9000 series 300, but most only had the weird HP connector on the back (are they just drives or what?). TU81 tape drive also present, but I don't know if related. This new stuff isn't going on the truck next Tuesday, but a lot of other stuff is (mostly 386 and older chassis, broken monitors, odd monitors (bits of an Omron computer, a Next slab, etc.) Everything is in South Orange county CA BTW. From wanderer at bos.nl Wed Apr 28 07:48:53 1999 From: wanderer at bos.nl (Edward Groenenberg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: rt-11 (ht-11) help References: <4.1.19990428004733.009f72c0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <372703B5.4228@bos.nl> Chuck McManis wrote: > > Ok, I booted a disk labelled "HT-11B distribution" on my H-11 and it comes > up to the "." prompt. But not much else. (dir doesn't work for example) > > Is there a clue page somewhere ? > --Chuck As a test you could use the command 'sh all', it will show all the available H/W and options installed. Ed From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Apr 28 06:51:26 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: stupid vax tricks Message-ID: <990428075126.20c00e26@trailing-edge.com> >Test 1 gives a '?' and I get this message: > > ? 6 80A1 0000.4001 >?? 1 00C0 0011.700E Test 6 means that your SCSI bus is (most likely) unterminated, and test 1 is indicating that you don't have your Ethernet terminated. Remember, the little recessed switch between the BNC and the AUI selects which Ethernet connector to use. >?24 UNXINT 00010000 041F0000 01C Unexpected interrupt. I really have no idea where from. >If I run the proper 'show' command (forgot which one I used) the disks >spin up (RZ23 and RZ24), and 'show boot' indicates it wants to boot from >the RZ24. Can you type "B DKA0" (or whatever your OS resides on) and see if you still get the UNXINT? Tim. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Apr 28 06:54:42 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: rt-11 (ht-11) help Message-ID: <990428075442.20c00e26@trailing-edge.com> >Ok, I booted a disk labelled "HT-11B distribution" on my H-11 and it comes >up to the "." prompt. But not much else. (dir doesn't work for example) Try a "R DIR". What is the exact text of the error message? (You know, the error messages are not put there for you to ignore. They do mean something to others, even if they seem cryptic to you.) >Is there a clue page somewhere ? I think your copy of HT-11B will be roughly equivalent to RT-11 V2 (maybe V3). No online help. You should find the big set of blue books that came with it! Many of the utility options from later versions of RT will work, but not all, and the details of a SYSGEN changed greatly between major versions. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mbg at world.std.com Wed Apr 28 07:07:53 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: rt-11 (ht-11) help Message-ID: <199904281207.AA10208@world.std.com> >Ok, I booted a disk labelled "HT-11B distribution" on my H-11 and it >comes up to the "." prompt. But not much else. (dir doesn't work for example) I believe HT-11 was based on a version of RT-11 which had not yet had DCL incorporated in it... to get a directory, you have to run PIP (R PIP) and issue the command 'ddx:/L' where dd is the device you're using (presumably DX) and 'x' is the unit number. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Wed Apr 28 07:11:31 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: rt-11 (ht-11) help References: <4.1.19990428004733.009f72c0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <199904281211.AA13067@world.std.com> >As a test you could use the command 'sh all', it will show all the >available H/W and options installed. Doubtful... RESORC (the program which handles the SHOW command) didn't come along until later... and neither did DCL, which is how RESORC would have been called. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Apr 28 07:16:56 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: rt-11 (ht-11) help Message-ID: <990428081656.20c00e26@trailing-edge.com> >had DCL incorporated in it... to get a directory, you have to >run PIP (R PIP) and issue the command 'ddx:/L' where dd is the >device you're using (presumably DX) and 'x' is the unit number. Yep, ignore my comment about R DIR. I'm pretty sure that DIR.SAV didn't exist until CCL came about (though of course you never know for sure with HT-11...) I spent an hour explaining to the folks at Mentec yesterday how IGETC and IFREEC aren't in RT-11 V5.5 and later SYSLIB.OBJ, despite how the manual said that they were still there :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Apr 28 07:16:46 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: rt-11 (ht-11) help In-Reply-To: <372703B5.4228@bos.nl> from Edward Groenenberg at "Apr 28, 1999 1:48:53 pm" Message-ID: <199904281216.IAA48418@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > Chuck McManis wrote: > > > > Ok, I booted a disk labelled "HT-11B distribution" on my H-11 and it comes > > up to the "." prompt. But not much else. (dir doesn't work for example) > > > > Is there a clue page somewhere ? > > --Chuck > > As a test you could use the command 'sh all', it will show all the > available H/W and options installed. > > Ed > > I believe HT11 was based on RT11 v2b... It didn't have dcl or a lot of the stuff from the later RT11. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 28 07:31:32 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Cores, light bulb goes on ... In-Reply-To: <80256760.0059E3E2.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 1999 Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > > > > > No you know what nuts dont work... > > > I don't usually have trouble with American English, but I must confess this > baffles me. Does it mean something like "Now you know why nuts don't work"? :-) The First "No" is supposed to be "Now"... Try typing on a -12 baud telnet link. Edit... took 8minutes to type this sentence and correct one error. Hell will freeze before the capitalized "f" gets fixed. > Hows this for an idea. If you find that the toroidal ferrites that Siemens and > people make don't have enough hysteresis, why not go to the other extreme and > try the stuff magnets are made of. Ring magnets as used for loudspeakers and > things are probably a bit large :-) - I wonder if it's possible to drill a > hole down a bar magnet and then cut slices off. For mass production, I'm sure > the magnet manufacturers would sell you the stuff unmagnetised... IT may work. It takes a lot to magnetize that stuff though. > Now can someone enlighten me: There will be a minor glitch-type delay between > read and sense pulses with no transition, and a much bigger delay with a > transition. How do you tell the difference? Is this one of the applications > where a monostable really is useful? The prefered digital delay is a delay line, monostables have far to much timing jitter and drift with themperature to be reliable. They would work for an experimental setup. > I think what he meant was: Rather than sending write current through all core > planes and inhibit current back through those to which you don't want to write, > why not send write current only through those planes to which you want to write? If you doing word width usually there is a single x and a single y driver for the whole array with a seperate inhibit for the bit lines. It's a matter of *n circuits. > The other property that affects this is size. The smaller the core, the less > current it takes to magnetise it. Yep. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 28 07:35:17 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: rt-11 (ht-11) help In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990428004733.009f72c0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > Ok, I booted a disk labelled "HT-11B distribution" on my H-11 and it comes > up to the "." prompt. But not much else. (dir doesn't work for example) same page you would use for RT-11 (its essentially rt-11 V2). HT-11 would have to have dup, dir, resourc and a few other utilities on it do be useful. Allison From PB14 at leicester.ac.uk Wed Apr 28 07:49:29 1999 From: PB14 at leicester.ac.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: **** RARE ***** ISA card Message-ID: <1FE60C83394@orchid.le.ac.uk> On 27 Apr 99 at 23:33, Mike Ford wrote: > **** RARE ***** ISA card, will trade for small plane or country > > I don't want to be the reason some poor guy out in the world stops using a > piece of equipment due to the cost of some critical part that I have. OTOH > if there are TWO such people needing the item, I see no reason why the one > that "needs" it the most doesn't get it. > > BTW the card is a HP 48L REV A 88290-66501, the fingers look ISA to me, the > connector looks DB25F, and the label on the bracket says Scanjet I/F card. > > What exactly is this, just a scanner controller card? Yes, I have one of these too I guess. This is labelled C2502-66500 REV B 1994. The date sounds about right as I remember ordering it. Mine has a bar code label with the marking 4HE3PFG. From the documentation, ISTR that it is just a barebones SCSI card that is designed to just about work with an HP Scanjet. The SCSI Scanjet will also work with a proper SCSI card so not having one is no great loss. <\CRAWLS OUT FROM UNDER DESK> Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14@le.ac.uk From mbg at world.std.com Wed Apr 28 07:49:44 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: rt-11 (ht-11) help Message-ID: <199904281249.AA17401@world.std.com> >same page you would use for RT-11 (its essentially rt-11 V2). HT-11 >would have to have dup, dir, resourc and a few other utilities on it do >be useful. But such utilities didn't come along until later in RTs life. Actually, in early versions of RT-11 (HT-11), PIP did all the same functions which were eventually broken out into the separate utilities DUP and DIR... Of course, since that split, several other functions were added to each utility, and have no analogue in V2. And there was no RESORC, or HELP. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Wed Apr 28 08:10:28 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: **** RARE ***** ISA card In-Reply-To: <1FE60C83394@orchid.le.ac.uk> from Phil Beesley at "Apr 28, 99 01:49:29 pm" Message-ID: <199904281310.JAA06102@hiway1.exit109.com> > > I don't want to be the reason some poor guy out in the world stops using a > > piece of equipment due to the cost of some critical part that I have. OTOH > > if there are TWO such people needing the item, I see no reason why the one > > that "needs" it the most doesn't get it. > > > > BTW the card is a HP 48L REV A 88290-66501, the fingers look ISA to me, the > > connector looks DB25F, and the label on the bracket says Scanjet I/F card. > > > > What exactly is this, just a scanner controller card? > > Yes, I have one of these too I guess. > This is labelled C2502-66500 REV B 1994. The date sounds about right > as I remember ordering it. Mine has a bar code label with the > marking 4HE3PFG. From the documentation, ISTR that it is just a > barebones SCSI card that is designed to just about work with > an HP Scanjet. The SCSI Scanjet will also work with a proper SCSI > card so not having one is no great loss. Only the ScanJet II and later are SCSI. The earliest ones used a proprietary interface, referred to as a "parallel" interface in the docs. The one Mike has is definately the proprietary one (I also have one sitting here). It was packed with scanners like the ScanJet Plus. The SCSI ones have been packed with a variety of simple SCSI interfaces. IIRC, my former employer's ScanJet IIp came with a tiny card that was little more than a 5380 and some ISA glue. <<>> From foxvideo at wincom.net Wed Apr 28 08:18:22 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Computer history Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990428091822.007a7b10@mail.wincom.net> If interested, check out Mary Bellis' "History of Modern Computers and their Inventors" at http://inventors miningco.com/library/blcoindex.htm Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 28 08:26:57 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <80256760.005ACF86.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990428082657.00fee500@vpwisfirewall> At 05:26 PM 4/27/99 +0100, Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > >This weekend I shall see if I can find some cheap, small compasses in a toy shop >or somewhere... These days, you might find a box of them at a satellite television shop. They give them away to help people point their dish. - John From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Apr 28 08:43:26 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Great Find ! Message-ID: <19990428134326.22455.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lawrence Walker wrote: > Doing a casual dumpster dive this eve and found a box with > > Vic-1520 Colour Printer Plotter. NIB including manual and cables. Unopened > tube containing the 4 colour nibs. Dont know if they're dried out but > they're water-based. Huh? My 1520 uses ballpoint nibs. Does anyone have any software for this? Somewhere on a disk, I wrote a BASIC program to plot a function that resembles a black-hole on a spacetime grid (and the unknown mass coordinates for Starcross), but I have never run across any other programs for this device. Does anyone out there have any software for it? (I don't recall seeing any on ftp.funet.fi). > What looks to be a 1/2 ht. 5 1/4 Apple ll floppy in a 1541 case usual All > cable but with a different non-apple controller card inside ?? Please describe this more fully. The Spartan Mimic was "the" Apple ][ emulator for the C-64. One of its "features" was a board that sat between the drive cables and the 1541 PCB that used relays to cut over certain signals, and also provided for a 20-pin Apple disk connector. You could stick an Apple disk in the 1541, read it from the Apple side, then swap disks and read a C= disk from the C-64 side. AFAIK, the 1541 board was not required, except perhaps as a way to tap power (i.e., the Spartan board was essentially an Apple Disk ][ to bare-drive interface/analog board. I was a beta-tester for the Mimic in, ISTR, 1986 or 1987. It was too little, too late, for too much money. I did get to keep the unit. I still have the case (empty) and the PSU (recycled into powering external SCSI disks), but I can't seem to locate any of the innards (I think it died after a while). My "greatest" accomplishment with it was attaching a real Apple disk for D0 and playing Spellbreaker on the Apple at the same time as Enchanter on the C-64, using the same keyboard and monitor, switching between the two CPUs when one was loading the next part of the game. The documentation described being able to write programs on each CPU that could talk through a register window and do some multiprocessing, but I never wrote any nor saw any for it. Cool hardware. Dunno what you found, but it _might_ be a former part of one of those. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 28 08:56:54 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: **** RARE ***** ISA card In-Reply-To: <199904281310.JAA06102@hiway1.exit109.com> Message-ID: > The one Mike has is definately the proprietary one (I also have one sitting > here). It was packed with scanners like the ScanJet Plus. If that one is rare then the MCA version I use with the scanjet I have must be unique! ;) allison From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Apr 28 09:43:41 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Great Find ! In-Reply-To: <19990428134326.22455.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 28, 99 06:43:26 am Message-ID: <199904281443.HAA10400@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 584 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990428/aa9a7915/attachment.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Apr 28 09:41:10 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: rt-11 (ht-11) help In-Reply-To: <199904281249.AA17401@world.std.com> from Megan at "Apr 28, 1999 8:49:44 am" Message-ID: <199904281441.KAA48669@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > > >same page you would use for RT-11 (its essentially rt-11 V2). HT-11 > >would have to have dup, dir, resourc and a few other utilities on it do > >be useful. > > But such utilities didn't come along until later in RTs life. > > Actually, in early versions of RT-11 (HT-11), PIP did all the > same functions which were eventually broken out into the > separate utilities DUP and DIR... Of course, since that split, > several other functions were added to each utility, and have > no analogue in V2. > > And there was no RESORC, or HELP. > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer A pat on the back is needed for the DEC and RT11 hacker folks that made RT11 v4 and later so nice to work on. Many of the DECUS hacks ended up in future RT11 versions. If there's other any old RT11 folks on the list (I know Megan is here) great job. RT11 -- what MS-DOS should've looked like. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Apr 28 09:45:03 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Centronics printer ribbons... Message-ID: NOS! RARE!! VALUABLE!!! (yeah, right...) In the boxes from a recent acqusition, I found a number of boxed of Centronics 'Linewriter' 400/800 and 1200 series ribbon cartridges. Since I don't have any of these printers in the collection (in fact, have never heard of the thing!), they are available to anyone who can use them for cost of shipping or flat out free if you pick them up! There are about six boxes (of six carts each) of the 400/800 ribbons, and one box of the 1200 ribbons. Of course, if you want to offer something interesting in trade, thats cool as well! B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Wed Apr 28 09:48:00 1999 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Linux tempts back Sinclair Message-ID: Looks like Clive Sinclair is working on another portable, this time with Linux and a non-Intel CPU. http://webserv.vnunet.com/www_user/plsql/pkg_vnu_template.comp_news?p_to_date=28-APR-99&p_cat_id=59&p_story_id=82266 -- David Wollmann DST / DST Data Conversion http://www.ibmhelp.com/ From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Apr 28 10:04:17 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Linux tempts back Sinclair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990428080417.0097f270@mail.sfu.ca> The story doesn't give any idea of what CPU the machine will be based upon. Anyone have an idea? ARM by any chance? A hacked version of NetBSD runs on ARM already. Kevin At 09:48 AM 28/04/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Looks like Clive Sinclair is working on another portable, this time with Linux >and a non-Intel CPU. > >http://webserv.vnunet.com/www_user/plsql/pkg_vnu_template.comp_news?p_to_da te=28-APR-99&p_cat_id=59&p_story_id=82266 > >-- >David Wollmann >DST / DST Data Conversion >http://www.ibmhelp.com/ > > > > ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 28 11:39:51 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: When stuff has to go In-Reply-To: References: <199904272121.VAA14407@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990428113951.2a7fa63a@intellistar.net> At 11:48 PM 4/27/99 -0700, you wrote: >>>Especially if its not limited to 10 year old stuff. I have all these >>>Microsoft manuals and CD's for learning about Microsoft NT 4.0 >>>(mainly administration stuff)... What i'm gonna do with 8-10 sets >>>of this stuff is puzzing me to no end. >> >>Fill pot holes? > >Do you really want the traction and safety of your car depending on a >MicroSoft product? Better to store it with nuclear waste. > No, it's better to use it in the out house. That way it ends up with the other S--- where it belongs. Joe > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 28 11:47:21 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Spring cleaning wave In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990428114721.48379a4e@intellistar.net> At 01:52 AM 4/28/99 -0700, Mike wrote: >Must be a wave of spring cleaning going on, >Big iron just rolling into the yard, 4 of those baby rack chassis, one a >MicroVAX II, and the rest each holding 3 or 4 HP 7945 computers all >daisychained together with that weird HP skinny centronics looking >connector. Sounds like HP-IB connectors. The 7945 is a STRANGE disk drive! It's a 55 Mb hard drive and four removeable 5.12" platter drives. A monitor, keyboard, and a couple HP mice also present, so I >assume its a working system. What the heck is it? I looked one or two of >the 7945 boxes over, and didn't learn much. I think they also said they >were 9000 series 300, The parts marked 9000/300 are the CPUs. Can't tell what exactly they are without the model number. The model number is marked inside the vents for the cooling fan in the rear. but most only had the weird HP connector on the back >(are they just drives or what?). Above. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 28 11:57:17 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Centronics printer ribbons... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990428115717.4837c042@intellistar.net> Jim, At 07:45 AM 4/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >NOS! RARE!! VALUABLE!!! (yeah, right...) > >In the boxes from a recent acqusition, I found a number of boxed of >Centronics 'Linewriter' 400/800 and 1200 series ribbon cartridges. > >Since I don't have any of these printers in the collection (in fact, have >never heard of the thing!), How many do you want? I know a guy here that's been throwing them away. They're not small! and they're definitely heavy! I think he's pitched at least twenty of them in the last few weeks. Joe From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Apr 28 11:15:01 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Great Find ! Message-ID: <19990428161501.12707.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > [C= 1520 plotter] > ::Does anyone out there have any software for it? (I don't recall seeing > ::any on ftp.funet.fi). > > As a matter of fact, *I* do. Do you get comp.binaries.cbm? Yes, but I don't check it as frequently as I used to (not your fault... I don't have telnet access to my primary news server from where I am). -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 28 11:27:36 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Linux tempts back Sinclair In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990428080417.0097f270@mail.sfu.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > The story doesn't give any idea of what CPU the machine will be based upon. > Anyone have an idea? ARM by any chance? A hacked version of NetBSD runs on > ARM already. The Corel Netwinder runs Linux on a StrongARM SA-110. And there is a port well advanced for the CL-PS7110 in the Psion 5, which contains an ARM processor "macrocell" whatever that is. The homepage for the main ARM Linux project is http://www.arm.uk.linux.org/~rmk/armlinux.html. So the ARM is definitely a contender. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 28 11:31:36 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:37 2005 Subject: Centronics printer ribbons... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990428115717.4837c042@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > >Centronics 'Linewriter' 400/800 and 1200 series > How many do you want? I know a guy here that's been throwing them away. > They're not small! and they're definitely heavy! I think he's pitched at > least twenty of them in the last few weeks. I'm not familiar with those models. But if they are anything like the Centronics 100 series, then DO NOT offend anyone who is physically capable of pitching one! From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 28 11:31:57 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: When stuff has to go Message-ID: <006b01be9194$b5e7b080$0100c0a8@fuj03> If you've got enough of these that they're not too valuable to ship into the ether, I'd appreciate one of these documentation sets re: NT4.0. Do you think they'd fit in one of those freebie USPS Priority Mail boxes and within the 2-lb limit. If so, I'd be happy to send you a fiver for your postage and trouble. The postage for a package of <2# is $3.20. regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 3:33 PM Subject: Re: When stuff has to go > I have all these Microsoft manuals and CD's for learning about Microsoft NT 4.0 > (mainly administration stuff)... What i'm gonna do with 8-10 sets of this stuff is > puzzling me to no end. > >-Lawrence LeMay From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Apr 28 11:44:27 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: Great Find ! In-Reply-To: <19990428161501.12707.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 28, 99 09:15:01 am Message-ID: <199904281644.JAA10372@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 877 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990428/b44785e7/attachment.ksh From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Apr 28 10:44:23 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: Powerlines Message-ID: <80256761.0056EE1C.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> [Power supplies with earth return] > I have never looked but I suppose it might. I have a 400A service and > sometimes I do a fair job of loading it. The transformer ped is out of the Another difference! It is very unusual in the UK to give a domestic customer more than 100A in the main incoming fuse. 400A on each side of your 115-0-115 supply is getting on for 100kW. Do you really use that? I would have thought 10kW would be more likely (my parents use 36kW at the winter peak, mostly heating load. 50A from each of three phases at 240V) Anyway, 400A on the 240V side corresponds to nearly 7A to be returned through the earth at 14kV. Ouch! I wonder what the resistance of the earth connection is. There will be a minimum resistance to prevent undue voltage rise under short circuit conditions, but I don't know how this relates to earth return circuits... The only places where I've seen this sort of arrangement, there are still 2 conductors. One insulated to HV for the line, and one lightly insulated for the (HV) neutral. > way so I rarely go closer than 30 feet from it. They also must put the > ground rod(s) inside the for safety (hate to think what it would be like if ISTR that in the UK there is a minimum distance between LV and HV earth electrodes. > the ground got cut on the primary). I have never seen them but they have to > be there somewhere. Earth open circuit? Hmm. The entire HV winding rises to 13kV and the HV neutral flashes over to the transformer tank? Assuming the tank is part of the LV earth system. Otherwise the transformer tank rises too, and flashes over to your house supply... Philip. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Apr 28 12:01:02 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: rt-11 (ht-11) help In-Reply-To: <199904281441.KAA48669@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> References: <199904281249.AA17401@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990428095309.00ce5960@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Well, when I type .DIR it says ?ILL-CMD? and when I type .R DIR it says ?FIL-NOT-FND? (could have different vowels and consonants deleted) When I boot the disk it also asks for a "Scratch" disk in drive 1, which is promptly sets DX1=DK I'll try the PIP options. As I recall from very foggy memories PIP was like the main thing. No online docs of course and the previous owner of this H11 didn't see fit to keep them with it. Clearly the H27 floppies are RX01 clones although they also have an "extended" mode which may allow for double density operation. More importantly they allow you to format disks :-) Oh, and I tried an 11/23 CPU and it wouldn't boot, it halts out with a 173xxx address. --Chuck From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Apr 28 11:35:18 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: **** RARE ***** ISA card Message-ID: <80256761.005B9836.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> The one Mike has is definately the proprietary one (I also have one sitting >> here). It was packed with scanners like the ScanJet Plus. > > If that one is rare then the MCA version I use with the scanjet I have > must be unique! ;) On the contrary, I have a scanjet (which I've never used) and the MCA adapter. I have no machines with MCA, though (yet!), so I might be offering to buy the ISA version. One day... Philip. From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Apr 28 13:00:51 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: Linux tempts back Sinclair In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990428080417.0097f270@mail.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990428110051.00973ec0@mail.sfu.ca> Thanks for the info, Kevin At 12:27 PM 28/04/99 -0400, you wrote: >On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > >> The story doesn't give any idea of what CPU the machine will be based upon. >> Anyone have an idea? ARM by any chance? A hacked version of NetBSD runs on >> ARM already. > >The Corel Netwinder runs Linux on a StrongARM SA-110. And there is a >port well advanced for the CL-PS7110 in the Psion 5, which contains an >ARM processor "macrocell" whatever that is. The homepage for the main >ARM Linux project is http://www.arm.uk.linux.org/~rmk/armlinux.html. > >So the ARM is definitely a contender. >-- >Ward Griffiths >"the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then >you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor > > > ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Apr 28 13:13:29 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: When stuff has to go In-Reply-To: <006b01be9194$b5e7b080$0100c0a8@fuj03> from Richard Erlacher at "Apr 28, 1999 10:31:57 am" Message-ID: <199904281813.SAA15454@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > If you've got enough of these that they're not too valuable to ship into the > ether, I'd appreciate one of these documentation sets re: NT4.0. > > Do you think they'd fit in one of those freebie USPS Priority Mail boxes and > within the 2-lb limit. If so, I'd be happy to send you a fiver for your > postage and trouble. The postage for a package of <2# is $3.20. > Actually, I should be able to ship them using Book Rate. Which is less than what you stated for 2 pounds. They are already in boxes, but the boxes are somewhat damaged. Peopel were throwing screwdrivers and such at empty boxes, including these not so empty boxes, so they usually have a hole bigger than a quarter in them. Sure, why dont you sent me your address, and i'll ship em via book rate, after taping up the hole. After you get them, you can send me a check for whatever the shipping costs were, plus whatever. The set consists of 2 D-ring manuals, one is about 1" binder, the other is much bigger, maybe 2" or so. There is a lab excercises, and lab exercise solutions stuff, plus a larger section that is the reading material for each lab. plus 3 CDroms, one has data for the exercises (which assume you have 2 networked computers, one running server, one running workstation), so you can pretty much ignore that, the other 2 CD's are NT server and NT workstation, 120 day licenses. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Apr 28 13:38:58 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: Spring cleaning wave In-Reply-To: Joe's message of Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:47:21 References: <3.0.1.16.19990428114721.48379a4e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199904281838.LAA06039@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Joe wrote: > Sounds like HP-IB connectors. The 7945 is a STRANGE disk drive! It's a > 55 Mb hard drive and four removeable 5.12" platter drives. Huh? My 7945s are 55MB hard drives period, there's nothing removable unless you have a screwdriver. OK, if you look inside there is probably a ~60MB Priam/Vertex MFM/ST-506 i/f drive, and one or two printed-circuit boards to speak CS/80 over HP-IB out one side, and MFM out the other to talk to the drive. There is a 68xx playing microcontroller to run the drive (on the board with the HP-IB connector) but it wasn't sold as a computer and I'm pretty sure it's intended to be user-programmable. -Frank McConnell From mbg at world.std.com Wed Apr 28 14:15:25 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: rt-11 (ht-11) help References: <199904281249.AA17401@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199904281915.AA06692@world.std.com> >Well, when I type .DIR it says >?ILL-CMD? Right... no CCL or DCL... >and when I type .R DIR it says >?FIL-NOT-FND? (could have different vowels and consonants deleted) DIR wasn't around at that time... >When I boot the disk it also asks for a "Scratch" disk in drive 1, which >is promptly sets DX1=DK Hmmm... I don't remember early versions of RT allowing command files. That was something added later... *BUT*, it's possible that the former owner made some modifications so that it does that at boot. I remember adding CCL-like code to V2C when I was a student at WPI back in the 70s... >Clearly the H27 floppies are RX01 clones although they also have an >"extended" mode which may allow for double density operation. > >More importantly they allow you to format disks :-) Yep... I have a set myself... >Oh, and I tried an 11/23 CPU and it wouldn't boot, it halts out with a >173xxx address. Yeah, the 11/23 hadn't come along yet, so the code is pretty LSI-11/03 specific. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From donm at cts.com Wed Apr 28 14:40:39 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: **** RARE ***** ISA card In-Reply-To: <199904281310.JAA06102@hiway1.exit109.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, John Ruschmeyer wrote: > > > I don't want to be the reason some poor guy out in the world stops using a > > > piece of equipment due to the cost of some critical part that I have. OTOH > > > if there are TWO such people needing the item, I see no reason why the one > > > that "needs" it the most doesn't get it. > > > > > > BTW the card is a HP 48L REV A 88290-66501, the fingers look ISA to me, the > > > connector looks DB25F, and the label on the bracket says Scanjet I/F card. > > > > > > What exactly is this, just a scanner controller card? > > > > Yes, I have one of these too I guess. > > This is labelled C2502-66500 REV B 1994. The date sounds about right > > as I remember ordering it. Mine has a bar code label with the > > marking 4HE3PFG. From the documentation, ISTR that it is just a > > barebones SCSI card that is designed to just about work with > > an HP Scanjet. The SCSI Scanjet will also work with a proper SCSI > > card so not having one is no great loss. > > Only the ScanJet II and later are SCSI. The earliest ones used a proprietary > interface, referred to as a "parallel" interface in the docs. > > The one Mike has is definately the proprietary one (I also have one sitting > here). It was packed with scanners like the ScanJet Plus. Not quite. The 88290 is only usable with the original Scanjet. The Scanjet+ required the 88295 version. The 88290s were at one time made available again by HP for ~$400 which reflected costs of restablishing a short run production and handling. With what has happened to scanner prices in recent months, it is unlikely that anyone in their right mind would pay anything like that today. > The SCSI ones have been packed with a variety of simple SCSI interfaces. > IIRC, my former employer's ScanJet IIp came with a tiny card that was > little more than a 5380 and some ISA glue. True. The 2502 card that Phil Beesley has is probably a 53C400A based card and is usable with Scanjet IIp, IIcx, 3c, 3p, 4c, 4p, etc. - don > <<>> > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 28 12:40:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: Cores, light bulb goes on ... In-Reply-To: <80256760.0059E3E2.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Apr 27, 99 05:16:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1600 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990428/de54538f/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Apr 28 17:00:35 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: Cores, light bulb goes on ... In-Reply-To: References: <80256760.0059E3E2.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <4.1.19990428144842.03ca6230@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 06:40 PM 4/28/99 +0100, Tony wrote: >Incidentally, I believe that the HP9100B core address driver is very >simple. Just a emitter follower (with a low-ish emitter resistor) >capacitively coupled to the address wire. This gives the required +ve and >-ve spikes when the transistor turns on and off. That's pretty clever, what size cap? I = Cdv/dt on the cap would allow for an arbitrary spike. I'll wire this up tonight. I bought some ferrite cores from a local surplus shop on the reccomendation of one of the core manufacturers and they have two very nice attributes: 1) They are all consistent magnetically. 2) Their magnetic properties are well characterized so I can relate theory to actual practice with fewer variables. Note you those of you in school or headed there, even the most obscure classes come in handy so PAY ATTENTION. :-) --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 28 18:22:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: Cores, light bulb goes on ... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990428144842.03ca6230@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 28, 99 03:00:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1747 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990429/903d5863/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 28 18:46:57 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: When stuff has to go Message-ID: <004001be91d1$676de400$0100c0a8@fuj03> I'll happily wait for them, shipped to Erlacher Associates Box 19651 Denver, CO 80219 attn: Dick That attention line isn't necessary unless someone else picks up the mail, which is generally not the case. I get a lot of literature, though, and am not always the first to see and subsequently hide (lose) it. This way it's more likely to get my immediate attention. thanks, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 12:25 PM Subject: Re: When stuff has to go >> If you've got enough of these that they're not too valuable to ship into the >> ether, I'd appreciate one of these documentation sets re: NT4.0. >> >> Do you think they'd fit in one of those freebie USPS Priority Mail boxes and >> within the 2-lb limit. If so, I'd be happy to send you a fiver for your >> postage and trouble. The postage for a package of <2# is $3.20. >> > >Actually, I should be able to ship them using Book Rate. Which is less >than what you stated for 2 pounds. They are already in boxes, but the >boxes are somewhat damaged. Peopel were throwing screwdrivers and >such at empty boxes, including these not so empty boxes, so they >usually have a hole bigger than a quarter in them. > >Sure, why dont you sent me your address, and i'll ship em via book rate, >after taping up the hole. After you get them, you can send me a check for >whatever the shipping costs were, plus whatever. > >The set consists of 2 D-ring manuals, one is about 1" binder, the >other is much bigger, maybe 2" or so. There is a lab excercises, and >lab exercise solutions stuff, plus a larger section that is the >reading material for each lab. plus 3 CDroms, one has data for the exercises >(which assume you have 2 networked computers, one running server, one >running workstation), so you can pretty much ignore that, the other >2 CD's are NT server and NT workstation, 120 day licenses. > >-Lawrence LeMay >lemay@cs.umn.edu From svs at ropnet.ru Wed Apr 28 18:51:58 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: DARO paper tape punch manual(s) wanted In-Reply-To: <19990210032823.07013@firepower>; from Sergey Svishchev on Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 03:28:26AM +0300 References: <19990210032823.07013@firepower> Message-ID: <19990429035158.19628@firepower> On Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 03:28:26AM +0300, Sergey Svishchev wrote: > The thing consists of tape feeder (model 1227-2001) and punch itself (model > 1215-1001). It was manufactured by VEB Rechenelektronik > Meiningen/Zella-Mehlis, GDR. FYI: Rainer-Foertig Elektronik sells these manuals. . -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Apr 28 18:51:38 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: Great find Message-ID: <000d01be91d2$0e835400$0f721fd1@5x86jk> I picked up a Rockwell Aim65 today for zero cost and seems to be in great shape. It looks like a large calculator and the housing is in very good condition. Also picked up a few HP cables for no charge. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 28 19:08:24 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: When stuff has to go Message-ID: <000601be91d4$670aae00$0100c0a8@fuj03> -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 5:57 PM Subject: Re: When stuff has to go >I'll happily wait for them, shipped to > >Erlacher Associates >Box 19651 >Denver, CO 80219 > >attn: Dick > >That attention line isn't necessary unless someone else picks up the mail, >which is generally not the case. I get a lot of literature, though, and am >not always the first to see and subsequently hide (lose) it. This way it's >more likely to get my immediate attention. > >thanks, > >Dick > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Lawrence LeMay >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 12:25 PM >Subject: Re: When stuff has to go > > >>> If you've got enough of these that they're not too valuable to ship into >the >>> ether, I'd appreciate one of these documentation sets re: NT4.0. >>> >>> Do you think they'd fit in one of those freebie USPS Priority Mail boxes >and >>> within the 2-lb limit. If so, I'd be happy to send you a fiver for your >>> postage and trouble. The postage for a package of <2# is $3.20. >>> >> >>Actually, I should be able to ship them using Book Rate. Which is less >>than what you stated for 2 pounds. They are already in boxes, but the >>boxes are somewhat damaged. Peopel were throwing screwdrivers and >>such at empty boxes, including these not so empty boxes, so they >>usually have a hole bigger than a quarter in them. >> >>Sure, why dont you sent me your address, and i'll ship em via book rate, >>after taping up the hole. After you get them, you can send me a check for >>whatever the shipping costs were, plus whatever. >> >>The set consists of 2 D-ring manuals, one is about 1" binder, the >>other is much bigger, maybe 2" or so. There is a lab excercises, and >>lab exercise solutions stuff, plus a larger section that is the >>reading material for each lab. plus 3 CDroms, one has data for the >exercises >>(which assume you have 2 networked computers, one running server, one >>running workstation), so you can pretty much ignore that, the other >>2 CD's are NT server and NT workstation, 120 day licenses. >> >>-Lawrence LeMay >>lemay@cs.umn.edu > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 28 20:31:25 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: Spring cleaning wave In-Reply-To: <199904281838.LAA06039@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990428203125.0ae78594@intellistar.net> At 11:38 AM 4/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> Sounds like HP-IB connectors. The 7945 is a STRANGE disk drive! It's a >> 55 Mb hard drive and four removeable 5.12" platter drives. > >Huh? My 7945s are 55MB hard drives period, there's nothing removable >unless you have a screwdriver. OK, if you look inside there is Well geez Frank I was only going by what's in the HP 7945 service manual that YOU sent me! Joe From Watzman at ibm.net Wed Apr 28 18:54:38 1999 From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: GEM GPL'd? Message-ID: <01BE91BC.7F9FA280@slip-32-100-187-107.oh.us.ibm.net> It's not a rumor, the source code for GEM has been released and is available on the unofficial CP/M web site. The heritage of this source code was unknown a few days ago, it was not known either if it would compile, or how close [or far] it was related to the shipping products. But it's a starting point. From Watzman at ibm.net Wed Apr 28 20:14:53 1999 From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-8 questions Message-ID: <01BE91BC.84B3AF00@slip-32-100-187-107.oh.us.ibm.net> The Heathkit H-8 was made from about 1977-78 to about 1981-82. It was an 8080 computer (Z-80 boards became available later), proprietary bus [there were a very few 3rd party source cards]. It originally ran HDOS [Heath Disk Operating System], which was not compatible with anything; Heath went to CP/M around 1980-81, which required changing the memory map of the machine [it had it's system ROM in low memory]. The front panel was implemented in firmware and was octal [thank you Gordon Letwin] [who left Heath for Microsoft in 1978, after designing much of the Heath architecture and software/firmware]. The system was originally cassette based, then the H-17 was introduced [hard sectored floppies, SSSD, 100k or so], and near the very end the H-37 components [DSDD 5", based on a Western Digital controller]. It was an "ok" but unexceptional machine, inferior to the better S-100 stuff available at the time. The H-89 and its variants incorporated the same basic architecture in a very user-friendly "All-in-one" package, and with a Z-80 instead of an 8080 [but only 2 MHz]. The H-89 was among the most solid, reliable and user friendly CP/M systems available at the time and made a good, if not fast [even by the standards of the day] business system for the 1979 to 1982 time frame. Barry Watzman ---------- From: bluoval [SMTP:bluoval@mindspring.com] Sent: Saturday, April 10, 1999 2:34 AM To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: Heathkit H-8 questions I saw a H-8 on eBay tonight. What year were these made? What could one do with it? From the photo it has a 16 key keypad, numbers 1-9 and the math symbols, decimal point, and 2 others i can't make out. What are those 2 keys? I'm not trying to buy it, I wouldn't know what to do with it even if i did. just curious. TIA. From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Apr 28 23:15:57 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: Anyone have an old plotter that they don't need??? Message-ID: <01be91f6$fb151dc0$c69ba6d1@the-general> Hello. I'm working on a project for the TSA National Conference (Technology Student Association- www.tsawww.org ). It's a CAD design project, and printouts need to be made at the competition. Unfortunately, my plotter just coughed up and died this afternoon. It started to grind, made a loud pop, and some smoke puffed out of it. I took it apart (thought it was a P/S problem, since the P/S died once before), but it seemed that the decoder (?) chip had fried. It's an old Tandy, so doubt I'll be able to find any new parts for it, and I wouldn't have time to repair it, anyway. My school does have a plotter (2 year old HP), but they won't let me take that beast to Tulsa for the competition (I'm not quite sure how I'd get it there, either). I'm not looking for anything real fancy - one with just a black pen will work fine. As long as it works (with a PC - PS/2 P70), is fairly portable (can be carried by one person), and won't cost me that much. ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From red at bears.org Wed Apr 28 20:55:32 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: stupid vax tricks In-Reply-To: <990428075126.20c00e26@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Apr 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Test 1 gives a '?' and I get this message: > > > > ? 6 80A1 0000.4001 > >?? 1 00C0 0011.700E > > Test 6 means that your SCSI bus is (most likely) unterminated, and Hm. If the internal cable has a terminator plugged in, and there is a terminator on the external port, what's left? > test 1 is indicating that you don't have your Ethernet terminated. > Remember, the little recessed switch between the BNC and the AUI selects > which Ethernet connector to use. Oh, yeah. Ok. > Can you type "B DKA0" (or whatever your OS resides on) and see if > you still get the UNXINT? If I type "BOOT DKA3000" (the result of "SHOW BOOT") the system boots to VMS 5.5 I haven't yet attempted to see if it'll boot unattended, with the BNC terminated properly. Are there any good VMS neophyte resources on the 'net, aside from the VMS FAQ? What is the name of the account analgous to "root"? I'll recognise it when I hear it but I can't recall what it is now. ok r. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Apr 28 21:09:42 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: stupid vax tricks Message-ID: <990428220942.20c0105d@trailing-edge.com> >> > ? 6 80A1 0000.4001 >> >?? 1 00C0 0011.700E >> >> Test 6 means that your SCSI bus is (most likely) unterminated, and >Hm. If the internal cable has a terminator plugged in, and there is a >terminator on the external port, what's left? There are also other quirks that can lead to test 6 giving an error - bad termination is the most common. Can you do a SHOW DEV and see what comes up? >> Can you type "B DKA0" (or whatever your OS resides on) and see if >> you still get the UNXINT? >If I type "BOOT DKA3000" (the result of "SHOW BOOT") the system boots to >VMS 5.5 Then I'd say you're succesful! >I haven't yet attempted to see if it'll boot unattended, with the BNC >terminated properly. Terminating will help #1, and in between SHOW DEV and simplifying the hardware configuration you'll probably fix #6. >Are there any good VMS neophyte resources on the 'net, aside from the VMS >FAQ? >What is the name of the account analgous to "root"? I'll recognise it when >I hear it but I can't recall what it is now. SYSTEM. The VMS FAQ tells you how to break in, while physically present at the console, if you've lost the SYSTEM password. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 28 21:09:17 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-8 questions References: <01BE91BC.84B3AF00@slip-32-100-187-107.oh.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <3727BF4C.150FD2E6@rain.org> "Barry A. Watzman" wrote: > > The Heathkit H-8 was made from about 1977-78 to about 1981-82. It was an 8080 computer (Z-80 boards became available later), proprietary bus [there were a very few 3rd party source cards]. It originally ran HDOS [Heath Disk Operating System], which was not compatible with anything; Heath went to CP/M around 1980-81, which required changing the memory map of the machine [it had it's system ROM in low memory]. The front panel was implemented in firmware and was octal [thank you Gordon Letwin] [who left Heath for Microsoft in 1978, after designing much of the Heath architecture and software/firmware]. The system was originally cassette based, then the H-17 was introduced [hard sectored floppies, SSSD, 100k or so], and near the very end the H-37 components [DSDD 5", based on a Western Digital controller]. It was an "ok" but unexceptional machine, inferior to the better S-100 stuff available at the time. > > The H-89 and its variants incorporated the same basic architecture in a very user-friendly "All-in-one" package, and with a Z-80 instead of an 8080 [but only 2 MHz]. The H-89 was among the most solid, reliable and user friendly CP/M systems available at the time and made a good, if not fast [even by the standards of the day] business system for the 1979 to 1982 time frame. Do you have any idea how many of these units were produced by Heath? Or to put it more broadly, do you know the production numbers for other Heath computer products? So far, I haven't heard any numbers and it would be MOST interesting to at least have an idea! Thanks. From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Wed Apr 28 21:10:01 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: TRW Swaps/CompuCrawls Message-ID: <199904290210.WAA00792@golden.net> Wonderful, wonderful. Glad you had a good time. I can hardly wait to meet you guys sometime. I am hard pressed to give DG NOVAs away. I am so isolated in Kitchener. I love my hometown, but you, you get to drive a bit and park in the might TRW's parking lot. Yikes, a dream come true. You keep enjoying the Valley ya here. I hope to have my Computer Room done in the next month. That is a room wherein all of the accessories and furniture (except the chairs and lamps - so far) are made from old computer parts. Up the old computer eh. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Wed Apr 28 21:11:14 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: I did it again. Sorry. Re: TRW Swaps/CompuCrawls Message-ID: <199904290211.WAA01320@golden.net> Please forgive me group. I sent another personal note to the entire list. I'll practice my cutting and pasting this weekend. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 28 22:14:57 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: stupid vax tricks In-Reply-To: References: <990428075126.20c00e26@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >Are there any good VMS neophyte resources on the 'net, aside from the VMS >FAQ? http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/index.html >What is the name of the account analgous to "root"? I'll recognise it when >I hear it but I can't recall what it is now. SUPERVULCAN Oh, wait, sorry wrong OS/Hardware/Company :^) SYSTEM The OpenVMS FAQ will answer the most likely question you'll probably have in regards to the SYSTEM account. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From djenner at halcyon.com Wed Apr 28 22:23:17 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-8 questions References: <01BE91BC.84B3AF00@slip-32-100-187-107.oh.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <3727D0A5.A4B536A@halcyon.com> I think the sources to HDOS were put in the public domain by Zenith back before they disappeared. Are they still around somewhere? Dave "Barry A. Watzman" wrote: > > The Heathkit H-8 was made from about 1977-78 to about 1981-82. It was an 8080 computer (Z-80 boards became available later), proprietary bus [there were a very few 3rd party source cards]. It originally ran HDOS [Heath Disk Operating System], which was not compatible with anything; Heath went to CP/M around 1980-81, which required changing the memory map of the machine [it had it's system ROM in low memory]. The front panel was implemented in firmware and was octal [thank you Gordon Letwin] [who left Heath for Microsoft in 1978, after designing much of the Heath architecture and software/firmware]. The system was originally cassette based, then the H-17 was introduced [hard sectored floppies, SSSD, 100k or so], and near the very end the H-37 components [DSDD 5", based on a Western Digital controller]. It was an "ok" but unexceptional machine, inferior to the better S-100 stuff available at the time. > > The H-89 and its variants incorporated the same basic architecture in a very user-friendly "All-in-one" package, and with a Z-80 instead of an 8080 [but only 2 MHz]. The H-89 was among the most solid, reliable and user friendly CP/M systems available at the time and made a good, if not fast [even by the standards of the day] business system for the 1979 to 1982 time frame. > > Barry Watzman > > ---------- > From: bluoval [SMTP:bluoval@mindspring.com] > Sent: Saturday, April 10, 1999 2:34 AM > To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Subject: Heathkit H-8 questions > > I saw a H-8 on eBay tonight. What year were these made? What could one > do with it? From the photo it has a 16 key keypad, numbers 1-9 and the > math symbols, decimal point, and 2 others i can't make out. What are > those 2 keys? I'm not trying to buy it, I wouldn't know what to do > with it even if i did. just curious. TIA. From fsc729 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 28 23:12:59 1999 From: fsc729 at yahoo.com (John jr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: **** RARE ***** ISA card Message-ID: <19990429041259.22205.rocketmail@web130.yahoomail.com> Dude I need that card in order for my dumpster diving scanjet, how much. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From fsc729 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 28 23:14:23 1999 From: fsc729 at yahoo.com (John jr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: **** RARE ***** ISA card Message-ID: <19990429041423.22375.rocketmail@web130.yahoomail.com> Do you know where I may obtain this card, because I have a scanjet which I obtained by dumpster diving, but can't interface it with my computer, so I need that card do you know where I could get he ISA version. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jlewczyk at his.com Wed Apr 28 23:16:15 1999 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: the "FIRST PC" - How about the computer on the Lunar Module? In-Reply-To: <199904280702.AAA06899@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <000201be91f7$05a101a0$013da8c0@Corellian> I was watching the show on the history of computers on the Discovery channel and they talked about the computer on the Lunar Module that landed on the moon. It had 5000 integrated circuits in it and was quite the marvel for its time. Could this be a candidate for the first Personal Computer? They were kinda pricey! ;-) Does anybody have any information on that cpu - word size, instruction set, memory, control panel, etc? Who manuafactured it? Where can one go and see it (without going to the moon!) How about the software for it? An simulator for one would be pretty cool to see, especially if it was running the program that they used to land on the moon! From roblwill at usaor.net Thu Apr 29 02:14:35 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: Anyone have an old plotter.... found. Message-ID: <01be920f$efacda40$ee8ea6d1@the-general> I found a _new_ plotter (HP 7475 Color Pen Plotter). One question: Where would I be able to find replacement pens? Are they still fairly readily available? ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Apr 28 23:47:15 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: the "FIRST PC" - How about the computer on the Lunar Module? In-Reply-To: <000201be91f7$05a101a0$013da8c0@Corellian> from "John Lewczyk" at Apr 29, 99 00:16:15 am Message-ID: <199904290447.VAA18379@saul4.u.washington.edu> > I was watching the show on the history of computers on the Discovery channel > and they talked about the computer on the Lunar Module that landed on the > moon. It had 5000 integrated circuits in it and was quite the marvel for > its time. Could this be a candidate for the first Personal Computer? They > were kinda pricey! ;-) I'm not getting involved this time. Last time I tried, I just make myself look silly. > Does anybody have any information on that cpu - word size, instruction set, > memory, control panel, etc? Who manuafactured it? Where can one go and see > it (without going to the moon!) How about the software for it? I don't know anything about the internals, except that they used braided- wire memory to store the little "executive" (= a small OS with real-time capabilities) which controlled the computer. I think the OS was written in a language called HAL/S, although I may be getting the Apollo Guidance Computer mixed up with the Space Shuttle computer. I have no idea if the source or binary is available. The thing was designed to interface to radar systems, electronics, power controllers, rocket engines, etc., so I think a simulator would be pretty hard to write. However, the manual is available! NASA published it as a report. I think after the terrible fire that killed three astronauts, NASA had to rethink the entire Apollo program, so they did a lot of soul-searching (along with the accompanying paperwork). The user interface is rather spartan, because the only displays are numerical. There are many specialized commands ("verbs" to NASA) and some operands ("nouns"). One command might resynchronize the gyrocompasses, others do simple navigation, etc. I don't believe there's a "Land On Moon" command. :) I have the manual on my hard drive, and there might be a URL. The first time I saw the AGC (one of them? how many were there?) it was on display, but not working, at the Computer Museum in Boston. I don't remember if they put plastic in front of the keypad... there wouldn't have been much point in pressing the keys anyway. The other time I saw the AGC, it was in a cardboard box in the Computer Museum History Center warehouse in Moffett Field. They had just moved in -- I was poking around -- "What's in THIS box? Oh, it's the PDP-1 broken down to individual System Modules! And this box is the AGC, and that box..." Rather awe-inspiring actually. > An simulator for one would be pretty cool to see, especially if it was > running the program that they used to land on the moon! As I said, you would need details about all the other hardware. Yes, it would be cool, but I'm not very optimistic. -- Derek From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Apr 29 00:48:43 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: the "FIRST PC" - How about the computer on the Lunar Module? In-Reply-To: <199904290447.VAA18379@saul4.u.washington.edu> References: <000201be91f7$05a101a0$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990428224843.009ca210@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:47 PM 4/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >> I was watching the show on the history of computers on the Discovery channel >> and they talked about the computer on the Lunar Module that landed on the >> moon. It had 5000 integrated circuits in it and was quite the marvel for >> its time. Could this be a candidate for the first Personal Computer? They >> were kinda pricey! ;-) > >I'm not getting involved this time. Last time I tried, I just make myself >look silly. Ah, Grasshopper... Discresion is one of the first tools of survival! >> Does anybody have any information on that cpu - word size, instruction set, >> memory, control panel, etc? Who manuafactured it? Where can one go and see >> it (without going to the moon!) How about the software for it? >I have the manual on my hard drive, and there might be a URL. Please tell! >The first time I saw the AGC (one of them? how many were there?) it was on >display, but not working, at the Computer Museum in Boston. I don't >remember if they put plastic in front of the keypad... there wouldn't have >been much point in pressing the keys anyway. > >The other time I saw the AGC, it was in a cardboard box in the Computer >Museum History Center warehouse in Moffett Field. They had just moved in -- >I was poking around -- "What's in THIS box? Oh, it's the PDP-1 broken down >to individual System Modules! And this box is the AGC, and that box..." >Rather awe-inspiring actually. > >> An simulator for one would be pretty cool to see, especially if it was >> running the program that they used to land on the moon! Well... if someone gets a simulator running, I've got a test for it. Here next to me on the shelf is one of the Apollo 13 flight manuals, and the sequences for inputting programs into the computer goes on... and on... and on... B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Apr 29 01:09:56 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:38 2005 Subject: rt-11 (ht-11) help In-Reply-To: <199904281249.AA17401@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990428224840.00b677e0@mcmanis.com> Appended below is a transcript of booting the disk marked HT-11B Distribution and using PIP to list the directory contents. The floppy interface generates the $ prompt. (presumably the boot loader on a BDV11 would clash with this.) The requirement to put in a new disk suggests that the disk is designed for one to copy on to the new disk those things one would need in a "working" version and the use the working copy. Unfortunately there isn't any SYSGEN or MAKESYS or anythign that suggests this. The only other PIP incantation I've managed that does anything useful is "TT:=DK0:[filename]" which types the file out to the console. Trying DK1:=DK0:*.* doesn't have the expected effect of copying the disk (DK1:/L yields a directory with no entries and 480 free blocks) .R ASEMBL - starts a version of MACRO-11 .R XBASIC - starts BASIC (again no docs but can hack a bit) .R EDIT - gives a '*' prompt .R DUMP - gives an octal dump .R MACRO - on SAMPLE.MAC exits to ODT at address 000002 Very weird stuff. I think it is RT-11v2B --Chuck --------------------- BEGIN TRANSCRIPT LISTING $dx DISTRIBUTION HT-11 VERSION H1B [890-6-2] .SET USR NOSWAP .SET TTY SCOPE THE PREVIOUS DATE WAS 7-APR-82 CHANGE? A DISK HAS A DIRECTORY RECORDED ON IT. THIS DIRECTORY CONTAINS INFORMATION ABOUT THE FILES THAT ARE ON THE DISK. WHEN THE DISK IS FIRST USED, THE DIRECTORY AREA MUST BE ZEROED. IT IS NOT CERTAIN IF THIS SCRATCH DISK HAS A GOOD DIRECTORY OR NOT. SINCE WHEN THE DIRECTORY IS ZEROED, ALL INFORMATION ON THE DISK IS LOST, YOU ARE BEING ASKED TO CONFIRM THAT THERE IS NO INFORMATION THAT YOU WANT ON THE DISK. TYPE "ZAP" AND PRESS "RETURN" TO ZERO THE DIRECTORY. ZAP THE DIRECTORY IS ZEROED ON YOUR SCRATCH DRIVE. .ASSIGN DX1=DK .PIP ?ILL CMD? .R PIP *DK0:/L 7-APR-82 MONITR.SYS 43 22-DEC-78 TT .SYS 2 22-DEC-78 PP .SYS 2 22-DEC-78 PR .SYS 2 22-DEC-78 LP .SYS 2 24-SEP-79 BOOTUP.SYS 14 16-MAR-79 ODT .OBJ 9 22-DEC-78 PIP .SAV 12 16-FEB-79 EDIT .SAV 14 22-DEC-78 LINK .SAV 21 22-DEC-78 ASEMBL.SAV 26 22-DEC-78 CREF .SAV 5 22-DEC-78 EXPAND.SAV 12 22-DEC-78 SRCCOM.SAV 11 22-DEC-78 DUMP .SAV 5 22-DEC-78 LIBR .SAV 15 22-DEC-78 PATCH .SAV 5 22-DEC-78 SYSMAC.SML 20 16-FEB-79 XBASIC.SAV 45 16-FEB-79 SAMPLE.MAC 2 16-MAR-79 FORMAT.SAV 2 19-JUN-79 FORMAT.MAC 5 19-JUN-79 MACRO .SAV 45 15-JUN-79 IDCRD .BAS 3 19-JUN-79 WCZTST.DAT 4 29-AUG-79 WCZTST.BAS 1 29-AUG-79 WCZTST.TST 4 29-AUG-79 MCS .ASM 38 21-NOV-79 H8RCV .BAS 1 27-NOV-79 JIM .JIM 1 29-NOV-79 H8RCV .BAX 1 4-DEC-79 31 FILES, 372 BLOCKS 108 FREE BLOCKS * From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 29 01:18:50 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: the "FIRST PC" - How about the computer on the Lunar Module? Message-ID: <000601be9208$2655bf60$0100c0a8@fuj03> Really! The original "Lunar Lander" game . . . I often marvel at how they manage these decade-long development cycles. Imagine the apparent lunacy of launching a 10-year-old design just because it takes that long to integrate, manufacture, and test it. The simulator must have been written in Threetran . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Lewczyk To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 10:26 PM Subject: Re: the "FIRST PC" - How about the computer on the Lunar Module? >I was watching the show on the history of computers on the Discovery channel >and they talked about the computer on the Lunar Module that landed on the >moon. It had 5000 integrated circuits in it and was quite the marvel for >its time. Could this be a candidate for the first Personal Computer? They >were kinda pricey! ;-) > >Does anybody have any information on that cpu - word size, instruction set, >memory, control panel, etc? Who manuafactured it? Where can one go and see >it (without going to the moon!) How about the software for it? > >An simulator for one would be pretty cool to see, especially if it was >running the program that they used to land on the moon! > > From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Apr 29 02:13:42 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Simon, the First Personal Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990301093150.00cda720@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: John Foust blurted out: > So who owns a Simon today? I haven't found one yet. There are a few people who have the Simon plans, and at least one of them has made some progress in building one. > Have you tracked down the family or employees? Yes, I've tracked down a couple of the employees and got some good info from them, some of which is on my web site. I'm also (slowly) working up to contacting Ivan Sutherland, Simon programmer and generally famous guy, through a mutual friend. Berkeley's papers went to the CBI after he died, so there's a ton of good info available about his work. Not to mention his books, which are readily available at places like ABE. > *Working* at Haggle? Formerly. Now working at Go2Net in Seattle. I haven't yet moved up to Seattle, but will soon. Any Seattle collectors hang-out around 3rd and Madison? Buy me lunch. Bring an umbrella. -- Doug -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Blinkenlights Archaeological Institute Featuring... http://www.blinkenlights.com/ Nearly Forgotten Personal Computers From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Apr 29 07:08:03 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-8 questions In-Reply-To: <3727D0A5.A4B536A@halcyon.com> References: <01BE91BC.84B3AF00@slip-32-100-187-107.oh.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990429074120.00a75730@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 08:23 PM 4/28/99 -0700, David C. Jenner said something like: >I think the sources to HDOS were put in the public domain by Zenith >back before they disappeared. Are they still around somewhere? Ah, Barry and Dave, that's what I barely recall may have happened myself. I knew HDOS 3 was a project undertaken by several of the HDOS gurus back in the mid-to-late-1980's but I lost track of it. I can't lay my hands on them for awhile as they're buried in the depths of my library storage section, but I recall a lot of discussion in either the BUSS newsletter or SEXTANT magazine regarding this. There was a bunch of very functional enhancements to the old HDOS and I wanted to get it, but back then I had few re$ource$. So, I put my toys away and forgot about them :( Also, wasn't the Watzman ROM an enhanced H89/90 ROM or was it for the H8? Danged old age causing brain cells to wander off and get lost . . . Also once again Barry, recall Trionyx (sp?) Electronics? In Tustin, CA, IIRC. Bill Perry was the character who owned the company which made several interesting boards and a rather good high speed motherboard. I bought his m'brd. for my H8 along with the rather complex C-H8 multifunction disk controller board which I never got running (his last product). Gotta dig that board out and do some hacking someday. Although he had seemingly grandiose dreams for the H8 according to his style of writing in his sales literature, several of Bill's designs did work. I never bought his Z80 CPU board, I had the Heath-issue unit. There were two other third-party CPU board suppliers (D-G Electronics and who else?) Dang! There goes that brain-rot again . . . Nevertheless, thanks for reviving a few of my fond old memories of the good ol' days of Heath Computer Hacking! One could really hotrod his/her H8 or especially the H89/90. :-) :-) > >Dave > >"Barry A. Watzman" wrote: >> >> The Heathkit H-8 was made from about 1977-78 to about 1981-82. It was an >8080 computer (Z-80 boards became available later), proprietary bus [there >were a very few 3rd party source cards]. It originally ran HDOS [Heath Disk >Operating System], which was not compatible with anything; Heath went to >CP/M around 1980-81, which required changing the memory map of the machine >[it had it's system ROM in low memory]. The front panel was implemented in >firmware and was octal [thank you Gordon Letwin] [who left Heath for >Microsoft in 1978, after designing much of the Heath architecture and >software/firmware]. The system was originally cassette based, then the H-17 >was introduced [hard sectored floppies, SSSD, 100k or so], and near the very >end the H-37 components [DSDD 5", based on a Western Digital controller]. >It was an "ok" but unexceptional machine, inferior to the better S-100 stuff >available at the time. >> >> The H-89 and its variants incorporated the same basic architecture in a >very user-friendly "All-in-one" package, and with a Z-80 instead of an 8080 >[but only 2 MHz]. The H-89 was among the most solid, reliable and user >friendly CP/M systems available at the time and made a good, if not fast >[even by the standards of the day] business system for the 1979 to 1982 time >frame. >> >> Barry Watzman >> >> ---------- >> From: bluoval [SMTP:bluoval@mindspring.com] >> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 1999 2:34 AM >> To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >> Subject: Heathkit H-8 questions >> >> I saw a H-8 on eBay tonight. What year were these made? What could one >> do with it? From the photo it has a 16 key keypad, numbers 1-9 and the >> math symbols, decimal point, and 2 others i can't make out. What are >> those 2 keys? I'm not trying to buy it, I wouldn't know what to do >> with it even if i did. just curious. TIA. Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Apr 29 07:15:30 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Anyone have an old plotter.... found. In-Reply-To: <01be920f$efacda40$ee8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <4.1.19990429081120.00a85a60@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:14 AM 4/29/99 -0700, Jason Willgruber said something like: >I found a _new_ plotter (HP 7475 Color Pen Plotter). > >One question: > >Where would I be able to find replacement pens? Are they still fairly >readily available? Try a drafting supply store, office supply store or one of the big chain office supply stores such as Office Max. Check Yellow Pages under Office Supplies or Drafting Supplies, etc. (Or call John Lovitz ;) HP doesn't make pens anymore but there are one or two good third-party outfits who do. Lots of those plotters out there yet so should be no problem finding pens for several years at least. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 29 09:19:25 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Great find In-Reply-To: <000d01be91d2$0e835400$0f721fd1@5x86jk> Message-ID: <199904291220.OAA02969@horus.mch.sni.de> > I picked up a Rockwell Aim65 today for zero cost and seems to be in great > shape. It looks like a large calculator and the housing is in very good > condition. Think of it as a supered KIM - a realy neat machine (BTW: I'm still looking for one for a friend of mine, who needs one as a controller for his central heating system). Could you name the 'housing' ? What manufacturer, what type ? Maybe a picture ? FYI, there have been several cases from third party supplyers, so caseings for KIMs and AIMs are almost a collectors theme on their own. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dogas at leading.net Thu Apr 29 07:43:10 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Great find Message-ID: <01be923d$d6ffc7e0$f1c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke >Could you name the 'housing' ? What manufacturer, what type ? >Maybe a picture ? FYI, there have been several cases from third >party supplyers, so caseings for KIMs and AIMs are almost a >collectors theme on their own. I agree there. I have three, 2 brown casings, one of them has the anglles of a stealth fighter and the other the curves of an old thunderbird. The third is a creamy albino angled critter... ;) Mike From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Thu Apr 29 08:31:12 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: M700 System Tape Message-ID: <001d01be9244$8ca668a0$1b3bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I have found a micro cassette labelled M700 System Tape, dated 1989. Anyone have any idea what this might have been for? Found in a stratum with lots of computer and software manuals from the same period. Hans Olminkhof From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 29 09:27:10 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Anyone have an old plotter.... found. Message-ID: <000601be924c$5e6e2880$0100c0a8@fuj03> I see so many of these in thrift stores, etc, for around $10-15, that I pay them no attention at all. They're not particularly interesting since deskjet printers will accept HPGL also. I don't see them with an assortment of pens, as I once did, so I'd say that's the weak link. What's more, the color deskjet printers, e.g. DJ550, etc, costing about the same as the plotters, print in color, accept HPGL, and are about 10x as fast, even though they're quite slow. Third-party pens are available in art and drafting supply houses. There's a line of refillable ink pens from Kohinoor which I've found doesn't work terribly well in my somewhat larger 7595B ("E"-size) plotter, but they may have something for the little desktop plotter. The not-refillable ones seem to work fine, though. If you use the roller ball pens or the tip-wicks, they may work for you. Good luck! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 29, 1999 6:27 AM Subject: Re: Anyone have an old plotter.... found. >Upon the date 12:14 AM 4/29/99 -0700, Jason Willgruber said something like: >>I found a _new_ plotter (HP 7475 Color Pen Plotter). >> >>One question: >> >>Where would I be able to find replacement pens? Are they still fairly >>readily available? > >Try a drafting supply store, office supply store or one of the big chain >office supply stores such as Office Max. Check Yellow Pages under Office >Supplies or Drafting Supplies, etc. (Or call John Lovitz ;) > >HP doesn't make pens anymore but there are one or two good third-party >outfits who do. Lots of those plotters out there yet so should be no >problem finding pens for several years at least. > >Regards, Chris >-- -- >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net >Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Thu Apr 29 09:36:03 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: rt-11 (ht-11) help Message-ID: <990429103603.20c01128@trailing-edge.com> >The requirement to put in a new disk suggests that the disk is designed for >one to copy on to the new disk those things one would need in a "working" >version and the use the working copy. Unfortunately there isn't any SYSGEN >or MAKESYS or anythign that suggests this. Your floppy doesn't have all the files necessary to reconfigure your system in that way, in any event. Most likely it's a "Backup this disk for dummies" procedure that's common with many distribution media. >.R ASEMBL - starts a version of MACRO-11 >.R XBASIC - starts BASIC (again no docs but can hack a bit) >.R EDIT - gives a '*' prompt >.R DUMP - gives an octal dump >.R MACRO - on SAMPLE.MAC exits to ODT at address 000002 In early RT-11 distributions, like DOS-11, the Macro processor was separate from the actual assembly phase. I don't know why it'd be dumping out on execution, though. How much memory is in your H-11? >Very weird stuff. I think it is RT-11v2B It looks like you've got the basic RT-11 development tools of the time, then. Good! You can go to ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rt/decus/ and you'll find that most of the stuff on the Spring '76 RT SIG tape ought to work under V2B. Some of the stuff from later SIG tapes ought to work as well. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From Walgen at do.isst.fhg.de Thu Apr 29 10:23:02 1999 From: Walgen at do.isst.fhg.de (Walgen@do.isst.fhg.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: The Home Computer Museum is back again ... Message-ID: Hi, just want to tell you that the Home Computer Museum is back after several weeks of DNS problems. try http://www.HomeComputer.de From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Thu Apr 29 10:40:50 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Lunar Module (and other) computer reference Message-ID: <990429114050.20c00cb0@trailing-edge.com> A good starting reference to many of the computers used in spaceflight is NASA Contractor Report 182505 Computers in Spaceflight The NASA Experience James E. Tomayko Wichita State University Wichita, Kansas It's available in hardcopy from CASI, and over the web from http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/computers/Compspace.html It gives a decent overview of the hardware involved, and has references to very technical documents if you want to go into that much detail. The HAL/S programming language is covered as an appendix. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From gentry at zk3.dec.com Thu Apr 29 11:12:34 1999 From: gentry at zk3.dec.com (Megan Gentry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: 11/04 available free, in taiwan... anyone near there? Message-ID: <199904291612.AA27626@kamlia.zk3.dec.com> As typical, contact the person in the mail message, not me. - - - - - From jacob at linx.moeacgs.gov.tw Thu Apr 29 09:05:14 1999 From: jacob at linx.moeacgs.gov.tw (Yuen-Chen Ho) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: PDP 11/04 Message-ID: We have a complete PDP 11/04 (exclude terminal) that will be dumped in the near future. We can freely deliver it if you want. Regards, Jacob Ho Microprobe Lab(ARL-SEMQ) Division of Petrology & Mineralogy Central Geological Survey P. O. Box 968 Taipei, Taiwan, R. O. C. fax : 886-2-2942-9291 From elvey at hal.com Thu Apr 29 12:15:46 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-8 questions In-Reply-To: <3727BF4C.150FD2E6@rain.org> Message-ID: <199904291715.KAA07950@civic.hal.com> Marvin wrote: > > The H-89 and its variants incorporated the same basic architecture in a very > user-friendly "All-in-one" package, and with a Z-80 instead of an 8080 [but > only 2 MHz]. The H-89 was among the most solid, reliable and user friendly > CP/M systems available at the time and made a good, if not fast [even by the > standards of the day] business system for the 1979 to 1982 time frame. Hi One of the interesting things about the H89 was that it came with hard sectored drives and later soft sectored. Many that used both were impressed with the speed increase. What they didn't know was that the actual potential was about the same for both. Because of the way the hard sectored worked, it couldn't read two sectors in a row. This means that it had to make one extra rev for each sector. I made a number of disk for a friend that I interleaved the sectors. He was impressed with the difference. I always thought that Heath keep quite about the slight change in formating to keep the large difference between drive setup to make it look like the soft sectored were much better when they were only slightly better. Dwight From mark_k at iname.com Thu Apr 29 10:55:19 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: IBM Optical drive questions Message-ID: Hi, On Mon, 19 Apr 1999 Jason wrote: > I'm getting a couple of IBM optical drives (one internal, one external). > From the description, they have MCA controller cards. My question is: > Would there be a way to run the internal one from an ISA controller? Maybe > the question should be where can I get an ISA controller for an IBM optical > drive? There are optical drives and optical drives... (read on) > My other question is if Optical disks are re-writable? I've talked to two > people, and one of them says that Optical disks aren't re-writable, > mangeto-optical disks are. The other person said that no optical disk is > re-writable, and that only floptical disks are (isn't that a form of optical > disk?) The other person is wrong. MO disks are rewriteable, and come to think of it some other types of optical media are, including CD-RW, DVD-RAM and PD. As I understand it, flopticals are just like floppies but use a laser to assist in positioning the drive head. I wouldn't call these optical disks. (I bet they're as reliable as Windows too.) There are various types of optical disk, of which magneto-optical ("MO") disks are one. MO disks are rewritable (like 10 million times), and are about the best -- in terms of media reliability and longevity -- true random-access rewriteable removable storage there is. And the media is much cheaper than Zip, Jaz etc. disks. There are 3.5" and 5.25" MO disks. 5.25" disks are also available in write-once varieties, but the drives themselves can handle both. (In fact the write-once disks are physically almost identical to the normal ones. The drive reads a flag to see that the disk should be write-only, and the drive firmware handles preventing writes to sectors that have already been written.) Anyway, I'll elaborate on my previous comment. IBM certainly used to sell SCSI 128MB 3.5" MO drives (circa 1992?). If you are getting a pair of these, using them will be no problem, assuming you have a SCSI controller. Earlier than that, IBM sold at least one other type of optical drive, which was a WORM (write once read many) drive. As the WORM acronym suggests, disks for the 3363 are not rewritable. They hold about 200MB each. The model 3363 drive was introduced in 1987, and I picked one up recently, along with two MCA controllers. The 3363 uses a custom interface. I want to get hold of an ISA controller to use with the 3363. I found someone who has one for sale, sold as seen for US$25. Too much for me. If you are getting a couple of 3363 drives (which are big, heavy beasts), they will be more of a curiosity than anything else. They use proprietary disks, which -- if you can still get them from IBM at all -- probably cost about $90 each. I have four still-sealed ones, but I'm hanging onto them in the hope that I eventually get an ISA controller card for my 3363... Plug: check out my Amiga Magneto-Optical Drive FAQ. This contains some info on why MO drives are cool, and a fair amount of details about using them with Amiga computers and well as non-platform-specific things. The URL is http://home.freeuk.net/markk/Amiga_MO_FAQ/main.html -- Mark From mark_k at iname.com Thu Apr 29 07:33:20 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Old CD-ROMs & free C compiler? Message-ID: Hi, On Fri, 16 Apr 1999 Max Eskin wrote: > On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > >Also, before the days of IDE CD-ROMs, and "Sound-Card interface", there > >were a lot of bizarre proprietary CD-ROM interfaces. > > Yes, I've even owned a huge external drive for a while, I mailed it to > someone on this list. I have some old Hitachi CD-ROM drives. They are single speed, from memory part number CDR-1503S. About the area of a desktop PC, but not as high. Connect to the host computer via a 37-way D connector. Does anyone know what type of controller card is needed in the PC to use these drives? Also, can anyone recommend a free C compiler running under MS-DOS, that can produce code capable of running on an XT type PC? I have used djgpp, but programs compiled with that require at least a 286SX. -- Mark From mark_k at iname.com Thu Apr 29 13:44:11 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: How to read recalcitrant floppies? Message-ID: Hi, On Sat, 17 Apr 1999 Ethan Dicks wrote: > I am attempting to back up some floppies from a project I did a few years > ago. The sets of 3.5" 1.44Mb IBM floppies have been stored in a box, in a > cool and dry room. Out of one set of 12 and one set of 15 disks, I have four > disks that have read errors that DOS won't get past, bad sectors and the > like. > ... > Are there any tools to go divining on DOS floppies that work better than > an endless succession of "R"etries? It's an all or nothing prospect; the > first disk has the install file, the remaning disks have a chopped monolithic > data file. If one disk can't be read, the whole set is fundamentally > useless. First, I take it you have tried reading the disks on different drives? If that didn't help, using the fdread package *might*, but I doubt it. You have an Amiga right? One possible solution, if you want to spend some time on this, would be to write a program to read the raw data from the disk, then MFM-decode and analyse the data and report/correct any errors. This could work if the only problems are with sector headers. Or try creating disk images using one of the various Amiga PC-disk-access packages, maybe one of those is more forgiving? (CrossDOS, XFS, MultiDOS, etc.) (Aside: since the Amiga disk controller is so versatile, it should be possible to archive "all" copy-protected PC disks using a program such as MFMWarp.) -- Mark From elvey at hal.com Thu Apr 29 13:02:49 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Great find In-Reply-To: <199904291220.OAA02969@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199904291802.LAA07963@civic.hal.com> "Hans Franke" wrote: > > I picked up a Rockwell Aim65 today for zero cost and seems to be in great > > shape. It looks like a large calculator and the housing is in very good > > condition. > > Think of it as a supered KIM - a realy neat machine (BTW: I'm > still looking for one for a friend of mine, who needs one as > a controller for his central heating system). Hi Although not as popular or valued as much as the KIM, Synertec made an evaluation board called the SYM-1 and SYM-2. Both of these boards could run KIM code with a little modification of vectors. There was an issue with the way the keyboard was scanned but a little coding would get around that. Watch for these boards, they should be much cheaper than the more famous KIM or Aim65's. Dwight From wanderer at bos.nl Thu Apr 29 15:55:01 1999 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Lunar Module (and other) computer reference References: <990429114050.20c00cb0@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3728C725.7E8B@bos.nl> Hi all, Can someone please email me a picture of a Kennedy 9600 tapedrive? Thanks, Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | zakkenvullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 29 14:17:05 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Old CD-ROMs & free C compiler? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > >were a lot of bizarre proprietary CD-ROM interfaces. > I have some old Hitachi CD-ROM drives. They are single speed, from memory part > number CDR-1503S. About the area of a desktop PC, but not as high. Connect to > the host computer via a 37-way D connector. > Does anyone know what type of controller card is needed in the PC to use these > drives? HITACHI. Sometimes "proprietary" is quite literal. I think that some models of them were also sold by Amdek, and therefore possibly interchangeable. I probably still have some (and drivers!). But I'm not sure how long it will take me to find 'em. > Also, can anyone recommend a free C compiler running under MS-DOS, that can > produce code capable of running on an XT type PC? I have used djgpp, but > programs compiled with that require at least a 286SX. I like PCC ("Personal C Compiler"), which when it was a commercial product sold as DeSmet C. Try: ftp://oak.oakland.edu/pub/simtelnet/msdos/c/pcc12c.zip (which may or may not still be valid). It is NOT an IDE ("integrated development environment") It is a command line oriented compiler that takes a .C source file, and produces a .O object file, which then needs to be run through the included BIND.EXE to produce a .EXE You can fit everything that you need on a 360K floppy. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 29 16:19:09 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Great find In-Reply-To: <199904291802.LAA07963@civic.hal.com> References: <199904291220.OAA02969@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199904291920.VAA06389@horus.mch.sni.de> > > > I picked up a Rockwell Aim65 today for zero cost and seems to be in great > > > shape. It looks like a large calculator and the housing is in very good > > > condition. > > Think of it as a supered KIM - a realy neat machine (BTW: I'm > > still looking for one for a friend of mine, who needs one as > > a controller for his central heating system). > Although not as popular or valued as much as the KIM, > Synertec made an evaluation board called the SYM-1 and > SYM-2. Both of these boards could run KIM code with a > little modification of vectors. There was an issue with > the way the keyboard was scanned but a little coding would > get around that. Watch for these boards, they should be > much cheaper than the more famous KIM or Aim65's. The SYM is a real neat board, also a supered KIM with _huge_ memory (4K!) a _big_ keyboard, a huge OS and even on board video... And for the SYM-2 thing - I have only seen once in my life: in a shop around 1979, offered at mucho Marko :( Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Apr 29 14:30:15 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Old CD-ROMs & free C compiler? In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at Apr 29, 1999 12:17:05 PM Message-ID: <199904291930.NAA20762@calico.litterbox.com> > > Also, can anyone recommend a free C compiler running under MS-DOS, that can > > produce code capable of running on an XT type PC? I have used djgpp, but > > programs compiled with that require at least a 286SX. > > I like PCC ("Personal C Compiler"), which when it was a commercial > product sold as DeSmet C. Try: > ftp://oak.oakland.edu/pub/simtelnet/msdos/c/pcc12c.zip > (which may or may not still be valid). > It is NOT an IDE ("integrated development environment") It is a command > line oriented compiler that takes a .C source file, and produces a .O > object file, which then needs to be run through the included BIND.EXE to > produce a .EXE > > You can fit everything that you need on a 360K floppy. > Power C, by MIX software will also do the job. Borland turbo C 4.5 can compile to an xt class target, I think, but it wants a 286 or better to run on. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From elvey at hal.com Thu Apr 29 14:54:11 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Great find In-Reply-To: <199904291920.VAA06389@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199904291954.MAA08014@civic.hal.com> "Hans Franke" wrote: > > The SYM is a real neat board, also a supered KIM with _huge_ > memory (4K!) a _big_ keyboard, a huge OS and even on board > video... > > And for the SYM-2 thing - I have only seen once in my life: > in a shop around 1979, offered at mucho Marko :( > > Gruss > H. Hi Guss I have two SYM-1's and one SYM-2. I still would like to have a KIM-1. There was a BASIC ROM for the SYM's and a disk interface board as well. I also have two of the video/keyboard setups, from Synertec, as well but I've never tried them. The SYM's also supported two rate speeds for the cassette interface. They could read Byte format and a faster format that they had. If any one out there has the BASIC ROM's for these I'd like to get a copy. Also, if anyone has the ROM for the disk interface, I'm looking for that as well. I can't understand why anyone would expect too high a price for these, though. Although not common, many were just tossed out. Dwight From clintw at colorado.cirrus.com Thu Apr 29 15:13:15 1999 From: clintw at colorado.cirrus.com (Clint Wolff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Old CD-ROMs & free C compiler? Message-ID: <199904292013.OAA13562@ws2044.colorado.cirrus.com> > > > > >were a lot of bizarre proprietary CD-ROM interfaces. > > I have some old Hitachi CD-ROM drives. They are single speed, from memory part > > number CDR-1503S. About the area of a desktop PC, but not as high. Connect to > > the host computer via a 37-way D connector. > > Does anyone know what type of controller card is needed in the PC to use these > > drives? > > HITACHI. Sometimes "proprietary" is quite literal. I think that some > models of them were also sold by Amdek, and therefore possibly > interchangeable. I probably still have some (and drivers!). But I'm not > sure how long it will take me to find 'em. > From clintw at colorado.cirrus.com Thu Apr 29 15:18:20 1999 From: clintw at colorado.cirrus.com (Clint Wolff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Old CD-ROMs & free C compiler? Message-ID: <199904292018.OAA13569@ws2044.colorado.cirrus.com> > > > > >were a lot of bizarre proprietary CD-ROM interfaces. > > I have some old Hitachi CD-ROM drives. They are single speed, from memory part > > number CDR-1503S. About the area of a desktop PC, but not as high. Connect to > > the host computer via a 37-way D connector. > > Does anyone know what type of controller card is needed in the PC to use these > > drives? > > HITACHI. Sometimes "proprietary" is quite literal. I think that some > models of them were also sold by Amdek, and therefore possibly > interchangeable. I probably still have some (and drivers!). But I'm not > sure how long it will take me to find 'em. > Oooppsss.. Sorry about the blank message.... A friend of mine worked at Reference Technology developing a CD-ROM drive based on the hitachi mechanism, way before CD-ROMs were a thing. In fact, they created a custom file format (pre-pre-ISO 9660) for a shareware disk that they used as a demo. Unfortunately, the market didn't develop fast enough, and Ref. Tech. went belly up. Long story short, I MAY have an interface card in my junk at home, but I think I threw all the documentation away with the drive (a VCR sized box) several years ago. If I can find it, I'll send it to you. clint From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Apr 29 16:09:04 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: SYM-1 In-Reply-To: <199904291954.MAA08014@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > I can't understand why anyone would expect too high > a price for these, though. Although not common, many > were just tossed out. Such is the incomprehensible ebay market for vintage computer items these days. It indeed makes no sense. Anyway, Ray Holt, the same guy that designed the F14 CADC, also designed the SYM-1. Synertek was his company before it was bought out by Honeywell. He'll probably be at VCF 3.0 if you'd like to speak with him. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 29 17:36:47 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: SYM-1 Message-ID: <000a01be9290$c49fb760$0100c0a8@fuj03> Synertek, by the way, was the earliest of several companies to produce really high-speed 650x family members. Their 4 MHz parts, which I routinely used at nearly 5 MHz in order to support async serial comm's, were the cat's pajamas back in 1980-81. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 29, 1999 3:20 PM Subject: SYM-1 >On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > >> I can't understand why anyone would expect too high >> a price for these, though. Although not common, many >> were just tossed out. > >Such is the incomprehensible ebay market for vintage computer items these >days. It indeed makes no sense. > >Anyway, Ray Holt, the same guy that designed the F14 CADC, also designed >the SYM-1. Synertek was his company before it was bought out by >Honeywell. He'll probably be at VCF 3.0 if you'd like to speak with him. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] > From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Apr 29 18:49:57 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: TRS-80 MODEL 16B HD is dead References: <000a01be9290$c49fb760$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3728F025.3F4E3B5A@hotoffice.com> Howdy friends, I have unable to resurrect the Model 16B that I recovered from the dumpster so, I'm parting that sucker out. If anyone needs any of the components, you can have 'em for the cost of shipping from South-Florida. First come first served. The only parts that I don't have are the disk drives or the keyboard. Everything else is up for grabs. Since I never actually got the machine to run, I don't know which components are good and which are bad. Although, I suspect the mother board is the culprit. It has some minor corrosion and a few suspicious solder connections. Everything *looks* to be in good shape. Obviously, there's no guarantee with this stuff :-) and I'd prefer it goes to someone that really *needs* it. Later, Steve Robertson From a2k at one.net Thu Apr 29 19:22:27 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Looking for.. Message-ID: Hey, I'm helping out a friend of mine that just got his first computer (a 386.. he's so excited about it - like a child on Christmas morning.. it's funny). Anyway, it's pretty barren. I have a few things in my basement (14.4 modem, printer, etc) but am looking for a CD-ROM (single speed is great!), maybe a 500meg HD, overdrive chip, etc... just basically anything to get him going. Thanks in advance, Kevin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After sifting through the overwritten remaining blocks of Luke's home directory, Luke and PDP-1 sped away from /u/lars, across the surface of the Winchester riding Luke's flying read/write head. PDP-1 had Luke stop at the edge of the cylinder overlooking /usr/spool/uucp. "Unix-to-Unix Copy Program;" said PDP-1. "You will never find a more wretched hive of bugs and flamers. We must be cautious." -- DECWARS ____________________________________________________________________ | Kevin Stewart | "I am a secret | | KC8BLL ----------| Wrapped in a mystery -Milford High School | | a2k@one.net | Wrapped in an enigma Drama Tech Dept. | |jlennon@nether.net| And drizzled in some tasty chocolate stuff.| -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 29 21:45:48 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Can you identify these cards? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990429214548.48b75b30@intellistar.net> Hi all, I went scrounging today and found some interesting cards. A picture of the first one is at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/card1.jpg" and a picture of the second is at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/card2.jpg". The first one is interesting because it has a list on the right side that appears to be a list of memory locations and op codes. It's hard to see in the photo but the first column is labeled CNT. (count?). Most of the ICs are dated 1972. The only other markings on the card is "TERADYNE A 794" and "Made in USA". The second one is a core memory board that I *think* may be for a Data General computer. I picked up several of these and they're all made by Dataram Corporation and appear to date from 1972. Their part number is 3010290. I took the cover off of one. Man, the cores in these are tiny! Can anyone identify them? Joe From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Apr 29 21:07:35 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: free computers Message-ID: <199904300207.CAA17759@thorin.cs.umn.edu> We're tossing out old computers this week, they are scheduled to be picked up by the local transportation company next monday or tuesday (probably tuesday). There are quite a few NDC 15" monochrome xterms. About 4 Sun ELC, 3-4 old style sun 19" monitors, that Decrwriter III that doesnt quite work.. A interesting color printer called a Howtek Pixelmaster (about the size of a water cooler). A pair of Apple Imagewriters. Anyways, they are in the hallway near my office, in teh basement of the computer science building. Let me know if anyone is interested, and I can give precise directions. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Thu Apr 29 21:19:51 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Can you identify these cards? Message-ID: <990429221951.20c010f8@trailing-edge.com> > I went scrounging today and found some interesting cards. A picture of >the first one is at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/card1.jpg" and a >picture of the second is at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/card2.jpg". > The first one is interesting because it has a list on the right side that >appears to be a list of memory locations and op codes. It's hard to see in >the photo but the first column is labeled CNT. (count?). Most of the ICs >are dated 1972. The only other markings on the card is "TERADYNE A 794" and >"Made in USA". Looks like a ROM built out of a diode array. I'd make a WAG that it's a bootstrap for some computer, but I don't know what. Judging by the content list, I'd say it's a 18-bit computer of some sort, but I don't recognize the board form factor or the opcodes. > The second one is a core memory board that I *think* may be for a Data >General computer. I picked up several of these and they're all made by >Dataram Corporation and appear to date from 1972. Their part number is >3010290. I took the cover off of one. Man, the cores in these are tiny! They don't plug directly into a Nova's bus, at least. It's very likely that these core cards plugged into a dedicated array backplane - note the lack of bus interface circuitry near the edge connector, but obvious core drivers. The array backplane would've contained other card(s) forming the bus interface to the actual computer that used these core planes. If you can give us the X by Y count of the cores, and tell us if the cores are obviously divided into sections (12? 16? 18?), maybe we can make more WAG's about where it plugs into :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Apr 29 21:17:41 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: free computers Message-ID: <183f7a45.245a6cc5@aol.com> In a message dated 99-04-29 22:09:30 EDT, you write: > We're tossing out old computers this week, they are scheduled to be picked > up > by the local transportation company next monday or tuesday (probably tuesday) > . > There are quite a few NDC 15" monochrome xterms. About 4 Sun ELC, 3-4 old > style sun 19" monitors, that Decrwriter III that doesnt quite work.. A > interesting color printer called a Howtek Pixelmaster (about the size of a > water cooler). A pair of Apple Imagewriters. > > Anyways, they are in the hallway near my office, in teh basement of > the computer science building. Let me know if anyone is interested, and > I can give precise directions. > uh, what part of the globe do you live on? From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM Thu Apr 29 21:24:48 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.COM (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Can you identify these cards? Message-ID: <990429222448.20c010f8@trailing-edge.com> >> I went scrounging today and found some interesting cards. A picture of >>the first one is at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/card1.jpg" and a >>picture of the second is at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/card2.jpg". >> The first one is interesting because it has a list on the right side that >>appears to be a list of memory locations and op codes. It's hard to see in >>the photo but the first column is labeled CNT. (count?). Most of the ICs >>are dated 1972. The only other markings on the card is "TERADYNE A 794" and >>"Made in USA". >Looks like a ROM built out of a diode array. I'd make a WAG that it's >a bootstrap for some computer, but I don't know what. Judging by the >content list, I'd say it's a 18-bit computer of some sort, but I don't >recognize the board form factor or the opcodes. Further insight: if you count the number of instructions listed that have the low bit set, then count the diodes in the B01 region on the board, they match up. And so on. Lots of zeroes in this particular opcode set, whatever it is! Tim. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Apr 29 21:35:40 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: free computers In-Reply-To: <183f7a45.245a6cc5@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at "Apr 29, 1999 10:17:41 pm" Message-ID: <199904300235.CAA17811@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > In a message dated 99-04-29 22:09:30 EDT, you write: > > > We're tossing out old computers this week, they are scheduled to be picked > > up > > by the local transportation company next monday or tuesday (probably > tuesday) > > . > > There are quite a few NDC 15" monochrome xterms. About 4 Sun ELC, 3-4 old > > style sun 19" monitors, that Decrwriter III that doesnt quite work.. A > > interesting color printer called a Howtek Pixelmaster (about the size of a > > water cooler). A pair of Apple Imagewriters. > > > > Anyways, they are in the hallway near my office, in teh basement of > > the computer science building. Let me know if anyone is interested, and > > I can give precise directions. > > > > uh, what part of the globe do you live on? > Whoops, I forgot to say this is in Minneapolis, Minnesota. The University of Minnesota east bank, in the Electrical Engineering and Computer Science building. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Apr 29 21:51:00 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: pip help Message-ID: <4.1.19990429194940.00979e10@mcmanis.com> Can anyone tell me how to copy files with PIP on an RT-11 V2 system? DCOPY fails to copy the complete disk and while the directory is intact the disk doesn't boot, so I want to use PIP to copy a file at a time and identify which files are on the bad part of the disk. --Chuck From spc at armigeron.com Thu Apr 29 21:46:47 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: TRS-80 MODEL 16B HD is dead In-Reply-To: <3728F025.3F4E3B5A@hotoffice.com> from "Steve Robertson" at Apr 29, 99 07:49:57 pm Message-ID: <199904300246.WAA11555@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 560 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990429/2930bdfb/attachment.ksh From bsa3 at cornell.edu Thu Apr 29 21:59:48 1999 From: bsa3 at cornell.edu (Brad Ackerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: <01be49bc$647326a0$9c8ea6d1@the-general>; from Jason Willgruber on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 10:15:09PM -0800 References: <01be49bc$647326a0$9c8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <19990429225948.37410@cornell.edu> On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 10:15:09PM -0800, Jason Willgruber wrote: > To tell the truth, I can't think of ANY IBM that had a factory reset > switch. My L40sx laptop has a place on the mother board for one, > but no actual external switch. I'm fairly certain that I saw one on a 1990-vintage RS/6000. I'll look tommorow and let you know. [That's about the only >= 1985 workstation architecture I don't have an example of in my apartment.] -- Brad Ackerman N1MNB "...faced with the men and women who bring home bsa3@cornell.edu the pork, voters almost always re-elect them." http://skaro.pair.com/ -- _The Economist_, 31 Oct 1998 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 29 21:58:26 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: pip help Message-ID: <990429225826.20c010f8@trailing-edge.com> >Can anyone tell me how to copy files with PIP on an RT-11 V2 system? DCOPY >fails to copy the complete disk and while the directory is intact the disk >doesn't boot, so I want to use PIP to copy a file at a time and identify >which files are on the bad part of the disk. .R PIP *DY1:FILE.OUT=DY0:FILE.IN wildcarding works, too. If you want to find which blocks are readable, and your distribution has the null device built in, you can try copying each file to NL:. You also have to put a bootblock on the resulting disk to make it bootable, but I don't know how to do this (off the top of my head) in HT-11 (or RT-11 V2B). In later RT-11's, this is done via DUP, but this doesn't exist in your distribution, does it? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Apr 29 22:23:20 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: pip help In-Reply-To: <990429225826.20c010f8@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990429201710.00c672e0@mcmanis.com> Hi Tim, At 10:58 PM 4/29/99 -0400, you wrote: >.R PIP >*DY1:FILE.OUT=DY0:FILE.IN > >wildcarding works, too. would wildcarding be *.* ? or some other characters? and is it DX1:*.*=DX0:*.* My pip just responds ?OUT FIL? and DX1:=DX0:*.* responds with : ?ILL DEV? But DX1:TT.SYS=DX0:TT.SYS works fine. >You also have to put a bootblock on the resulting disk to make it >bootable, but I don't know how to do this (off the top of my head) >in HT-11 (or RT-11 V2B). I'm guessing that the version of FORMAT does this because if I FORMAT a disk and then DCOPY the HT-11B Distribution to it, it boots. > In later RT-11's, this is done via DUP, but > this doesn't exist in your distribution, does it? Nope, no DUP. The reason I ask is that in my quest for 8" floppies I found two floppies marked RT-11V20C (which is one letter later than V20B which HT-11 thinks it is) but I can't seem to get a complete copy of DISK 1, but I can boot it. Thanks for any help, --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 29 23:30:01 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Can you identify these cards? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990429214548.48b75b30@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > The first one is interesting because it has a list on the right side that >appears to be a list of memory locations and op codes. It's hard to see in >the photo but the first column is labeled CNT. (count?). Most of the ICs >are dated 1972. The only other markings on the card is "TERADYNE A 794" and >"Made in USA". Maybe from a Teradyne RAM tester? They had some big computer looking machine that was for testing RAM, IIRC. > The second one is a core memory board that I *think* may be for a Data >General computer. I picked up several of these and they're all made by >Dataram Corporation and appear to date from 1972. Their part number is >3010290. I took the cover off of one. Man, the cores in these are tiny! Hmmm, the Core Memory board I've got that _I_ think is for a Data General, is square, that looks more rectangular. Well, I just pulled out my DG Nova doc's, and the board would in fact be square, and there would only be two card connectors. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Apr 29 22:43:32 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: More RT-11 questions Message-ID: <4.1.19990429202749.00bcc250@mcmanis.com> Hi Tim, [Note that I went to the directory off the PDP-11 home page that alleges to have notes on RT-11 but except for the DECUS disks there aren't that many notes, and on the DECUS disks there is mostly just source code. (which would be ok if I can figure out how to assemble something into a SAV file)] Ok, so when I boot the disk labelled RT-11V02C on my H-11 it seems to work except if I try to use PIP to copy a file to a disk I formatted with HT-11 it doesn't work (gives me DIR-RD-ERR). I realize DEC was "famous" for not providing formatting software but is there a FORMAT program for this version? Interestingly PIP on the HT-11 DISK can read the disks just not the "official" RT11 --Chuck Contents of Disk 1: Contents of Disk 2: MONITR.SYS 46 5-JAN-78 RKMNSJ.SYS 46 5-JAN-78 DXMNFB.SYS 58 5-JAN-78 RKMNFB.SYS 58 5-JAN-78 DP .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 RFMNSJ.SYS 46 5-JAN-78 RK .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 RFMNFB.SYS 58 5-JAN-78 RF .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 DPMNSJ.SYS 46 5-JAN-78 TT .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 DPMNFB.SYS 58 5-JAN-78 LP .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 DT .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 BA .SYS 7 5-JAN-78 DX .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 SYSMAC.SML 18 5-JAN-78 CR .SYS 3 5-JAN-78 SYSMAC.8K 25 5-JAN-78 MT .SYS 6 5-JAN-78 BATCH .SAV 25 5-JAN-78 MM .SYS 6 5-JAN-78 EDIT .SAV 19 5-JAN-78 PR .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 MACRO .SAV 31 5-JAN-78 PP .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 ASEMBL.SAV 21 5-JAN-78 CT .SYS 5 5-JAN-78 EXPAND.SAV 12 5-JAN-78 DS .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 CREF .SAV 5 5-JAN-78 FILEX .SAV 11 5-JAN-78 LINK .SAV 25 5-JAN-78 SRCCOM.SAV 11 5-JAN-78 PIP .SAV 14 5-JAN-78 DUMP .SAV 5 5-JAN-78 PATCH .SAV 5 5-JAN-78 PATCHO.SAV 33 5-JAN-78 ODT .OBJ 9 5-JAN-78 VTMAC .MAC 7 5-JAN-78 VTHDLR.OBJ 8 5-JAN-78 SYSF4 .OBJ 33 5-JAN-78 DEMOFG.MAC 5 5-JAN-78 KB .MAC 33 5-JAN-78 DEMOBG.MAC 4 5-JAN-78 22 FILES, 475 BLOCKS LIBR .SAV 15 5-JAN-78 5 FREE BLOCKS TT 1 5-JAN-78 LOAD .SAV 7 5-JAN-78 26 FILES, 370 BLOCKS 110 FREE BLOCKS From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Apr 29 22:38:20 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Can you identify these cards? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Apr 29, 1999 08:30:01 pm" Message-ID: <199904300338.DAA17881@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > The first one is interesting because it has a list on the right side that > >appears to be a list of memory locations and op codes. It's hard to see in > >the photo but the first column is labeled CNT. (count?). Most of the ICs > >are dated 1972. The only other markings on the card is "TERADYNE A 794" and > >"Made in USA". > > Maybe from a Teradyne RAM tester? They had some big computer looking > machine that was for testing RAM, IIRC. > > > The second one is a core memory board that I *think* may be for a Data > >General computer. I picked up several of these and they're all made by > >Dataram Corporation and appear to date from 1972. Their part number is > >3010290. I took the cover off of one. Man, the cores in these are tiny! > > Hmmm, the Core Memory board I've got that _I_ think is for a Data General, > is square, that looks more rectangular. Well, I just pulled out my DG Nova > doc's, and the board would in fact be square, and there would only be two > card connectors. > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From mbg at world.std.com Thu Apr 29 22:49:07 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: pip help Message-ID: <199904300349.AA27743@world.std.com> >You also have to put a bootblock on the resulting disk to make it >bootable, but I don't know how to do this (off the top of my head) >in HT-11 (or RT-11 V2B). In later RT-11's, this is done via DUP, but >this doesn't exist in your distribution, does it? Boy, this is nudging some long-dormant brain cells... To write a bootstrap on V2(B or C), I believe the incantation is: .R PIP *DY1:A=DY1:MONITR.SYS/O * the 'A' is a dummy file name to satisfy the requirments of the CSI, the /O is the option for writing the boot, using blocks from the file MONITR.SYS (which was listed in the directory Chuck supplied earlier). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer (1977-1992) Long-time RT-11 User (since 1975) +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Apr 29 22:54:22 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: pip help Message-ID: <199904300354.AA02015@world.std.com> >would wildcarding be *.* ? or some other characters? and is it >DX1:*.*=DX0:*.* > >My pip just responds ?OUT FIL? >and DX1:=DX0:*.* responds with : ?ILL DEV? Right... the CSI requires a file specification of some sort (which is reason for the dummy filename I mentioned in a recent post). But I think that the proper form for wildcards in the copy is DX1:*=DX0:*.* but it has been so long, I won't commit to it... >I'm guessing that the version of FORMAT does this because if I FORMAT a >disk and then DCOPY the HT-11B Distribution to it, it boots. That is a strange FORMAT... Then again, it could be .CHAINing to PIP with the appropriate command... >Nope, no DUP. DUP didn't show up until a few releases later, when the functions of PIP were split into PIP, DUP and DIR. PIP was then specifically used for file copies, DUP for disk utility operations, and DIR specifically for directories. >The reason I ask is that in my quest for 8" floppies I found two floppies >marked RT-11V20C (which is one letter later than V20B which HT-11 thinks >it is) but I can't seem to get a complete copy of DISK 1, but I can boot >it. I know I have a copy of V2C in my collection, on RK05... it probably should be cleaned before use, though... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From KFergason at aol.com Thu Apr 29 22:57:16 1999 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: PC question Message-ID: <61b3da08.245a841c@aol.com> In a message dated 4/29/99 10:00:04 PM Central Daylight Time, bsa3@cornell.edu writes: > On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 10:15:09PM -0800, Jason Willgruber wrote: > > To tell the truth, I can't think of ANY IBM that had a factory reset > > switch. My L40sx laptop has a place on the mother board for one, > > but no actual external switch. > > I'm fairly certain that I saw one on a 1990-vintage RS/6000. I'll > look tommorow and let you know. [That's about the only >= 1985 > workstation architecture I don't have an example of in my apartment.] > > yep, the 250's and 350's have a reset switch. i had to use one today. (the reset switch, that is) Kelly From mbg at world.std.com Thu Apr 29 23:15:19 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: More RT-11 questions Message-ID: <199904300415.AA22794@world.std.com> >Ok, so when I boot the disk labelled RT-11V02C on my H-11 it seems to >work except if I try to use PIP to copy a file to a disk I formatted with >HT-11 it doesn't work (gives me DIR-RD-ERR). It's possible that HT11 had some slight variation in the directory structure which causes real RT-11 to throw up its hands in disgust. >I realize DEC was "famous" for not providing formatting software but is >there a FORMAT program for this version? Interestingly PIP on the HT-11 >DISK can read the disks just not the "official" RT11 Not so much that there is no software for it, some devices had no capability to format... You cannot format an 8" floppy on an RX01. Even on the RX02, all you can do (with true DEC hardware) is change a single-density RX01 to a double-density RX02 or vice versa. If the disk has no formatting to begin with, RX02s can't help it. The only machine, strangely enough, which could truly format RX01s was the PDT-11/150... It writes the low-level format whenever it writes a block... I had a RX01 attached to one of my file cabinets at work, using a magnet ring from an RK05... but I regularly used it on the PDT just to show people it could be done... BTW - a side effect of this is that only those sectors actually written by the PDT-11/150 will have single-density formatting... if the disk is otherwise a double-density disk, the unwritten sectors remain double-density... strange, eh? >Contents of Disk 1: Contents of Disk 2: >MONITR.SYS 46 5-JAN-78 RKMNSJ.SYS 46 5-JAN-78 typically, MONITR.SYS was RT-11 SJ monitor for RK05 what the bootable monitor was called. >DXMNFB.SYS 58 5-JAN-78 RKMNFB.SYS 58 5-JAN-78 RT-11 FB monitor for RX01 RT-11 FB monitor for RK05 >DP .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 RFMNSJ.SYS 46 5-JAN-78 SJ/FB RP02/03 disk handler RT-11 SJ monitor for RF11 (fixed head disk) >RK .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 RFMNFB.SYS 58 5-JAN-78 SJ/FB RK05 disk handler RT-11 FB Monitor for RF11 >RF .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 DPMNSJ.SYS 46 5-JAN-78 SJ/FB RF11 disk handler RT-11 SJ monitor for RP02/03 >TT .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 DPMNFB.SYS 58 5-JAN-78 SJ/FB TT handler RT-11 FB monitor for RP02/03 >LP .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 DT .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 SJ/FB Parallel Line printer SJ/FB Dectape (TU56) handler handler >BA .SYS 7 5-JAN-78 DX .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 SJ/FB Batch handler SJ/FB RX01 disk handler >SYSMAC.SML 18 5-JAN-78 CR .SYS 3 5-JAN-78 System Macro Library SJ/FB Card reader handler >SYSMAC.8K 25 5-JAN-78 MT .SYS 6 5-JAN-78 System Macro Library SJ/FB Magtape handler >BATCH .SAV 25 5-JAN-78 MM .SYS 6 5-JAN-78 Batch processor SJ/FB Magtape handler >EDIT .SAV 19 5-JAN-78 PR .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 Text editor, uses commands SJ/FB Paper tape reader handler kind of like TECO, but different >MACRO .SAV 31 5-JAN-78 PP .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 Assembler SJ/FB paper tape punch handler >ASEMBL.SAV 21 5-JAN-78 CT .SYS 5 5-JAN-78 Assembler (?) I never used SJ/FB TU60 cassette handler this one... >EXPAND.SAV 12 5-JAN-78 DS .SYS 2 5-JAN-78 I've forgotten... SJ/FB RJS04 disk handler >CREF .SAV 5 5-JAN-78 FILEX .SAV 11 5-JAN-78 Cross-referencer File Exchange utility (knows about RSTS file structure as well as interchange floppies and TOPS-10 volumes. >LINK .SAV 25 5-JAN-78 SRCCOM.SAV 11 5-JAN-78 Linker Source file comparison utility >PIP .SAV 14 5-JAN-78 DUMP .SAV 5 5-JAN-78 Peripheral Interchange Program DUMP utility >PATCH .SAV 5 5-JAN-78 PATCHO.SAV 33 5-JAN-78 Utility for patching image Utility for patching object files files >ODT .OBJ 9 5-JAN-78 VTMAC .MAC 7 5-JAN-78 'Octal Debugging Technique' VT11 macro definition file I always had a problem with the name. I always thought it should have been 'Octal Debugging Tool'. >VTHDLR.OBJ 8 5-JAN-78 SYSF4 .OBJ 33 5-JAN-78 VT11 display handler object I don't know... library >DEMOFG.MAC 5 5-JAN-78 KB .MAC 33 5-JAN-78 Demo foreground program, SJ/FB keyboard handler, allowed communicates with... input from keyboard (the way TT handled device output) >DEMOBG.MAC 4 5-JAN-78 Demo background program >LIBR .SAV 15 5-JAN-78 Librarian utility, used to build object libraries >TT 1 5-JAN-78 This is not a standard RT file... >LOAD .SAV 7 5-JAN-78 This is not a standard RT file, it may be part of what is executed at boot time...? Thanks for the walk down memory lane... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From sring at uslink.net Thu Apr 29 23:58:32 1999 From: sring at uslink.net (END USER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Inquiry Message-ID: <01be92c6$18afb1e0$3c57ddcc@enduser> I have a lot of the kid's computers, (Atari, Commodore, CoCo, etc), which I am trying to keep alive. Does anyone know if I can substitute high quality music tapes in place of computer tapes? Or where I can still find computer cassette tapes for sale? Stephanie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990429/fa7d0c41/attachment.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 30 01:14:51 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Inquiry In-Reply-To: <01be92c6$18afb1e0$3c57ddcc@enduser> Message-ID: >I have a lot of the kid's computers, (Atari, Commodore, CoCo, etc), which >I am trying to keep alive. Does anyone know if I can substitute high >quality music tapes in place of computer tapes? Or where I can still >find computer cassette tapes for sale? > >Stephanie Back in the early 80's I didn't even use high quality music tapes, instead I used the cheapest cassette tapes I could find. Never had any problem, except for tape wastage since I'd only use about the first five minutes of the tape. It was easiest to try to limit it to one program per tape. The only problem along these lines that I experienced was a tape that someone copied on a home stereo system. Part of the time it would load, part of the time it wouldn't. BTW, the computer I used was a Commodore VIC-20 with the original Cassette Deck. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 30 01:20:36 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: HT-11 bit bi bit Message-ID: <4.1.19990429231359.00b18280@mcmanis.com> Ok, so another clue discovered: 1) Typing DX1:/Z "zeros" the directory on a floppy. 2) Trying this on drive 1 leaves the floppy scrambled, doing it on drive 0 seems to work. Trying DX0:A=DX1:MONITR.SYS/O does not write the boot block A disk formatted and zeroed is not mbootable. Since the source to FORMAT was included I thought I'd take a peek. It tells the controller that is embedded in the drive "format that disk." and it does. There is a slim changce I've got a "spare" 8" drive that I can use to check the alignment on my drive 1. Are all 8" drives the same on their connector? (actually there are the NEC drives in the Chrislin box that aren't being used at the moment. What the heck is used for "delete" on RT-11? backspace doesn't work nor does DEL apparently. If anyone remembers how to actually assemble something I'd appreciate it. WHen I run assembl it gives a '*' prompt, to which I can type DX0:SAMPLE.MAC and it will assemble it except that it doesn't recognize any of the macro definitions because it apparently hasn't included "SYSTEM.MLM" or whatever it is. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 30 01:24:31 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:39 2005 Subject: Vax update Message-ID: <4.1.19990429232143.00bec770@mcmanis.com> On an unrelated front, the NetBSD folks have released 1.4Beta and it actually mostly works on my uVax II (at least while I'm diskless). I've managed to recompile an entire kernel (takes most of the day :-) and install and run my new kernel. This means that I can actually debug the bus hang problem if I can get some documentation on the processor (KA630). I reiterate my call for a KA630 CPU manual, I only need it long enough to make a copy of it and return it. Alternately, if one turns up I'll pay up to $30 for it (that's what I figure it will cost to have it copied). And no, DEC no longer sells it as far as I can tell. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 30 01:44:14 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Simple rt-11 question Message-ID: <4.1.19990429233945.00b1c7d0@mcmanis.com> Ok, I have managed to assemble and link a program! .R MACRO *DEMOFG.OBJ,DEMOFG.LST=DEMOFG.MAC results in the expected listing and object file (I'm glad Gary Kildall modelled CP/M after RT-11!) Then I linked it with .R LINK *DEMOFG.SAV=DEMOFG.OBJ,ODT.OBJ Then I ran it with .R DEMOFG and it ran, popped into ODT which I continued out of and exited 'cuz the background program wasn't running. OK. So we're almost cooking, but it raises some interesting questions: 1) I can compile on the other disk by preceding the names with DX1: in the assmbler line. 2) How can I run a program on DX1: ? If I type .R DX1:PROG it says ?ILL-CMD? 3) Which side of the disk is the directory on? (inner or outer tracks?) The last question relates to the disk problem I'm seeing. My guess is that write precompensation is screwed up on that disk which would explain why it works until it writes the directory. --Chuck From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Apr 30 02:55:51 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer manual details Message-ID: <199904300755.AAA17627@saul2.u.washington.edu> I've dug out my copy of the manual for the Apollo Guidance Computer. The files total about 165K; I don't think it's appropriate to mail them to the list. But if you want a copy: * Ask me and I'll send you one. * Maybe DejaNews has the posts. * Rich Drushel (who typed in the whole manual!) has a home page at: http://junior.apk.net/~drushel I didn't see the manual there but maybe I missed it. If anyone e-mails Rich and finds he has a later version, please tell me. I also have a separate 24K file (by Rich) with a giant picture of some of the keypads and a bit of extra detail about the AGC. I'm not sure the picture wasn't copied from the manual. The message below was Rich's "foreword" to his posting of the manual. It's fascinating, it's not too long, and Rich can explain the subject better than I can. BTW, I had forgotten the fact that the computer changed over time, each Apollo spacecraft had a few slightly-different "terminals", and the LEM had its own version(s) of the computer. If you want to write a simulator, your work is cut out for you. -- Derek Article 131741 of alt.folklore.computers: Path: news.u.washington.edu!uw-beaver!cornellcs!rochester!udel!delmarva.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!wariat.org!junior.wariat.org!drushel From: drushel@junior.wariat.org (Richard Drushel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer (Block I) [0/4] Date: 14 Jan 1996 14:48:02 GMT Organization: Akademia Pana Kleksa, Public Access Uni* Site Lines: 69 Message-ID: <4db532$if8@wariat.wariat.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: junior.wariat.org X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] The Apollo Guidance Computer (AGC) revised 9601.14 by Richard F. Drushel (drushel@apk.net) Periodically there are questions on alt.folklore.computers about what kind of computers were used on board the spacecraft in the Apollo moon program. Here are the definitive answers, reproduced directly from the Apollo Operations Handbook for spacecraft SC 012--better known as Apollo 1. After the fire on 27 January 1967 which killed astronauts Gus Grissom, Ed White, and Roger Chaffee, NASA began a massive investigation into the accident. Its 3-volume report, "Investigation into the Apollo 204 Accident", published 10 April 1967, contains not only the accident report, but also a wealth of supplementary data documenting the Apollo Command and Service Modules. Included is the complete Apollo Operations Handbook, which gives blueprints, block diagrams, schematics, theory of operations, how-to-fly-it instructions, you name it--including the computer system. I have broken Section 2, Subsection 2 (Guidance and Navigation System (G&N)) into 4 parts for ease of posting. This is pages 2.2-1 to 2.2-48 of the Apollo Operations Handbook SM2A-03-SC012, or pages 443-488 of Volume II, Part 1 of the Apollo 204 Accident Report. Two of the four figures in this section I reproduce as ASCII art; I've tried to keep it to 80 columns, but in a couple places it spills over, so don't read this with your word wrap on. Of the other two figures, one is a beautiful line drawing, and the other is a 4-page foldout block diagram. If I get around to it, I'll put the text up on my WWW home page and make .GIFs of the artwork. This description of the Apollo Guidance Computer is only absolutely correct for SC 012. A sister ship, SC 014, was completely dismantled during the accident investigation, and some changes were made in the ship design. Also, since SC 012 was a Block I spacecraft, it was never intended to dock with a lunar module--it had no docking probe and tunnel--so any computer programs dealing with translunar injection and lunar orbit rendezvous are absent. As for hardware changes, I don't know if it was due to the fire, but at some point before the manned lunar missions, the Bus A and B voltages were increased from +28 VDC to +65 VDC. This had grave implications for Apollo 13: the thermostatic switch for the heater in the oxygen tanks was never upgraded from +28 VDC, it shorted out during a manufacturing test using +65 VDC, causing the heater to fail on for 8 hours, baking the inside at 1000 degrees F and exposing the bare wires which shorted out so explosively in space. Other changes from the state of SC 012 include the main hatch (changed after Apollo 1) and the plumbing for the oxygen tanks (changed after Apollo 13). The museum-quality sets in the 1995 Ron Howard film "Apollo 13" show that the Block II computer keyboard was different from that of Block I. I hope to add some ASCII art pictures of this sometime soon. The Lunar Module computer was evidently similar to the AGC. At least it shared the 1201 and 1202 error codes (which occurred during the lunar descent on Apollo 11, nearly causing the landing to be aborted). I have not found documentation similar to the Apollo Operations Handbook for the LM. I've tried to catch all the typos, but some may remain. If you find any, please let me know. Enjoy! I did when I read it; that's why I was motivated to type it all in :-) *Rich* -- Richard F. Drushel, B.A., Ph.D.| ColecoVision AA DDDDD AA M M ===============================| Family A A D D A A MM MM Come to ADAMcon VIII | Computer AAAAAA D D AAAAAA M M M M Cleveland, Ohio U.S.A. | System A A DDDDD A A M M M 5-8 September 1996 |============================================== See the ADAMcon VIII Home Page | http://junior.apk.net/~drushel/adamcon8.html From bluoval at mindspring.com Fri Apr 30 04:49:07 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Inquiry References: <01be92c6$18afb1e0$3c57ddcc@enduser> Message-ID: <37297C93.560F56C3@mindspring.com> I don't think the computers used special tapes for storage. Also the average tapes nowadays are probably alot better than the really good tapes back then. I may be wrong. Robert END USER wrote: > I have a lot of the kid's computers, (Atari, Commodore, CoCo, etc), > whichI am trying to keep alive. Does anyone know if I can substitute > highquality music tapes in place of computer tapes? Or where I can > stillfind computer cassette tapes for sale? Stephanie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990430/38da58f1/attachment.html From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Fri Apr 30 05:25:24 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: <19990429225948.37410@cornell.edu> References: <01be49bc$647326a0$9c8ea6d1@the-general> <01be49bc$647326a0$9c8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <199904301025.UAA01348@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 22:59 29/04/99 -0400, Brad Ackerman wrote: >I'm fairly certain that I saw one on a 1990-vintage RS/6000. I'll >look tommorow and let you know. [That's about the only >= 1985 >workstation architecture I don't have an example of in my apartment.] Can certainly confirm that the earliest RS/6000s and some of the later ones have a nice reset button on the front... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Apr 30 05:58:44 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 MODEL 16B HD is dead References: <199904300246.WAA11555@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <37298CE4.AB89A345@hotoffice.com> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > I have unable to resurrect the Model 16B that I recovered from the > > dumpster so, I'm parting that sucker out. If anyone needs any of the > > components, you can have 'em for the cost of shipping from > > South-Florida. First come first served. > > Is that the one with the built-in monitor? Same type of case as a Tandy > 6000? If so I'm interested, and where in South Florida? > > -spc (You mean someone else in South Florida is on the same mailing > list I'm on? Wow! ... ) Yep... The case looks just like TRS-80e MODEL II. It's a fairly large case (21" W x 13" H x 20" D), has a built-in 12" monitor, and an 8" Floppy drive (not included). Originally there was a 15MB Hard Drive in the box but, I didn't find it when I got the system. I live in West Hollywood and work in Boca. As a matter of fact, we probably pass each other in our daily commutes. Steve Robertson From mbg at world.std.com Fri Apr 30 06:10:14 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: HT-11 bit bi bit Message-ID: <199904301110.AA20243@world.std.com> >Ok, so another clue discovered: > 1) Typing DX1:/Z "zeros" the directory on a > floppy. > 2) Trying this on drive 1 leaves the floppy > scrambled, doing it on drive 0 seems to > work. There may be a problem with your drive 1. >Trying DX0:A=DX1:MONITR.SYS/O does not write the boot block If my example showed two separate devices, that was incorrect. I believe both input device and output device have to be the same for this. And MONITR.SYS and DX.SYS have to exist on the volume which you are trying to make bootable. >A disk formatted and zeroed is not mbootable. right... >Since the source to FORMAT was included I thought I'd take a peek. It >tells the controller that is embedded in the drive "format that disk." >and it does. Aha... and you're using the Heathkit floppies, which can format the drives... >What the heck is used for "delete" on RT-11? backspace doesn't work nor >does DEL apparently. It should be DEL (0177). What happens when you type it? Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Fri Apr 30 06:20:21 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Simple rt-11 question Message-ID: <199904301120.AA24756@world.std.com> >Ok, I have managed to assemble and link a program! > >.R MACRO >*DEMOFG.OBJ,DEMOFG.LST=DEMOFG.MAC BTW - the file types (formerly called extensions) are defaulted based on position in the command line. So: .R MACRO *DEMOFG,DEMOFG=DEMOFG is equivalent to the above... The RT Utilities use something called CSI (command string interpreter) which has a standard form... up to 3 output files (the ones to the left of the '=') and up to 6 input files (the ones to the right of the '='). For MACRO, the output files are objects, lists and symbol table (in later versions). And the 6 input files are all expected to be .MAC >results in the expected listing and object file (I'm glad Gary Kildall >modelled CP/M after RT-11!) It sure does look that way, doesn't it... :-) >Then I linked it with >.R LINK >*DEMOFG.SAV=DEMOFG.OBJ,ODT.OBJ Same as above comments here, only the defaults are: .SAV image, .MAP file for outputs, and up to 6 .OBJs for input. >Then I ran it with >.R DEMOFG >and it ran, popped into ODT which I continued out of and exited 'cuz the >background program wasn't running. To run a foreground program, you issue the command FRUN >OK. So we're almost cooking, but it raises some interesting questions: > 1) I can compile on the other disk by preceding the names > with DX1: in the assmbler line. Or you could ASSIGN DX1 DK, and then R MACRO and specify the command line without device specifications. Typically, one would boot from one device, then ASSIGN the other device as DK (default disk) on which all new files would be created if not otherwise specified, and from which all input files would be taken, again unless otherwise specified. > 2) How can I run a program on DX1: ? If I type .R DX1:PROG > it says ?ILL-CMD? The 'R' command is used for running programs/utilities specifically from the system device 'SY' (the boot device). To run a program from another disk, you can either do 'RUN' with no device specified to have it run from DK:, or 'RUN dev:program' to run 'program' from 'dev:' > 3) Which side of the disk is the directory on? (inner or outer > tracks?) The directory for all RT-11 volumes is a contiguous set of blocks starting with block 6. It consists of two blocks per segment for as many segments as have been specified in the PIP dev:/Z[:n] command (up to 31). Each segment can specify up to 72 files. So for one segment, the directory is in blocks 6 and 7. The first file data block is block 010. >The last question relates to the disk problem I'm seeing. My guess is >that write precompensation is screwed up on that disk which would explain >why it works until it writes the directory. Sorry, can't answer that one... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 30 08:56:32 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Inquiry In-Reply-To: References: <01be92c6$18afb1e0$3c57ddcc@enduser> Message-ID: <199904301157.NAA10059@horus.mch.sni.de> > >I have a lot of the kid's computers, (Atari, Commodore, CoCo, etc), which > >I am trying to keep alive. Does anyone know if I can substitute high > >quality music tapes in place of computer tapes? Or where I can still > >find computer cassette tapes for sale? > Back in the early 80's I didn't even use high quality music tapes, instead > I used the cheapest cassette tapes I could find. Never had any problem, > except for tape wastage since I'd only use about the first five minutes of > the tape. It was easiest to try to limit it to one program per tape. > The only problem along these lines that I experienced was a tape that > someone copied on a home stereo system. Part of the time it would load, > part of the time it wouldn't. > BTW, the computer I used was a Commodore VIC-20 with the original Cassette > Deck. The Question isn't as stupid as it sounds on first sight. Back in the ol' days (Old Guys, arn't we ?) I had some problems with high quality tapes in the usual cheap cassette drives/recorders - Tape and head have to be in an aprobiate range - so you can't just use any material. Now, I hasn't been a problem back then, since most times I also did by the ceapest of the ceap - only when in urgend need (lets say a weeks hack without saving, and no other cassette available I took high quality material - some of my old music recordings still have data inbetween - and of course I got problems ... (once I even _bought_ a cassete at DM 20 (~USD8 at this time ~1980), since the shop had no cheap ones (usualy DM 1-3)). So, if you want to use modern cassetes, best practice would be to use an acording actual recording device - no problem when using computers with standard connectors, while for a Como, you might need to build some cables and use an original C2N as hook up. For old casettes I would suggest _not_ to buy them - Computer cassetes have been cheap materials, in most case they have been stored under poor conditions and as a result, the material may be already damaged. Gruss h. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 30 08:56:32 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Inquiry In-Reply-To: References: <01be92c6$18afb1e0$3c57ddcc@enduser> Message-ID: <199904301157.NAA10054@horus.mch.sni.de> Date sent: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:14:51 -0800 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Inquiry > > >I have a lot of the kid's computers, (Atari, Commodore, CoCo, etc), which > >I am trying to keep alive. Does anyone know if I can substitute high > >quality music tapes in place of computer tapes? Or where I can still > >find computer cassette tapes for sale? > > > >Stephanie > > Back in the early 80's I didn't even use high quality music tapes, instead > I used the cheapest cassette tapes I could find. Never had any problem, > except for tape wastage since I'd only use about the first five minutes of > the tape. It was easiest to try to limit it to one program per tape. > > The only problem along these lines that I experienced was a tape that > someone copied on a home stereo system. Part of the time it would load, > part of the time it wouldn't. > > BTW, the computer I used was a Commodore VIC-20 with the original Cassette > Deck. > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 30 07:27:16 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: More RT-11 questions In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990429202749.00bcc250@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: > Ok, so when I boot the disk labelled RT-11V02C on my H-11 it seems to work > except if I try to use PIP to copy a file to a disk I formatted with HT-11 > it doesn't work (gives me DIR-RD-ERR). Using a DEC RX01/02? if not RT-11 format will NOT owrk on the H11 disk. You must use the heath H11 formatter (or I think the switch must be in RX01 mode). In either case the H11 disk system is very different from the DEC save for RX01 media compatability. Alsi did you "init" the disks? the didks need to be init'd to establish the RT-11 directory. The command in .INIT DXn: Allison From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Apr 30 07:45:25 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Inquiry In-Reply-To: <01be92c6$18afb1e0$3c57ddcc@enduser> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990430084525.007a14f0@mail.wincom.net> At 11:58 PM 4/29/1999 -0500, you wrote: > I have a lot of the kid's computers, (Atari, Commodore, CoCo, etc), >which Does anyone know if I can substitute high Or where I can still >find computer cassette tapes for sale? Stephanie The Coleco "Adam" used a custom made cassette, but other than that standard cassettes should work. I have used standard cassettes with Commodore 64 and Tandy Model 3, no personal experience with the others. Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 30 07:56:58 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: HP 9845 and space schuttle program was Re: Any HP 9845 Desktops Still In Service? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990430075658.39efcebc@intellistar.net> I got this from a guy that used to use the HP 9845 calculator and thought this group might be interested. > >On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: >> What kind of work did you do with the 9845? Do you still have anything >> for them? > >Joe, > >There's no trace of anything to be found...not even for the HP 9000/520 >used to migrate some of my applications. Let's see if you'll regret >asking me what I did with it? :-) > >I actually used the 9845B (Model T) for Space Shuttle flight support >(STS-2 through STS-24). I worked at Rockwell International Space Systems >Division in Downey, California (now owned by Boeing). I started out in >1979 doing bean-counting work. I wrote BASIC programs that create bar >charts, plots, and tabulated data for the Flight Systems Design and >Performance department. My manager, Bill Schleich, was the one who >developed the shuttle's roll maneuver shortly after lift-off. > >Most (99.9%) of the engineers were IBM/TSO die-hards because they were >old Apollo guys. They considered the HP 9845 to be a toy, but they were >really afraid of it. Some of those guys preferred to use a printable >tele-type terminal over CRTs! > >On the first shuttle flight there was unexpected lofting of the vehicle >that we didn't account for in our trajectory predictions. Finally an >engineer named David Pearson was able to trace the problem down to us not >having up-to-date atmospheric data (our mainframe trajectory analysis >programs used montly weather tables). > >Bill Schleich was also Dave Pearson's manager and he appreciated the >power and versatility of the microcomputer...it helped that I impressed >him with fancy graphics on the internal thermal printer (mainframe >hardcopies of graphics had to be trucked from Seal Beach - about 20 miles >away). > >Previously, I crossed-over to doing some small engineering studies where >I'd plot data, etc., using the 9845. But the big project was for the >flight support task! There was a lady named Kathy O'Connor who did some >cool graphics with the robotic arm against a stunning line-drawing of the >shuttle in X-Y-Z drawings. > >Anyway, to shorten this story, we had the launch site send us FAXes of >their weather balloon data (no FTP in those days) for weeks, days, hours, >and up to 15 minutes before launch. We had an HP 9872A plotter that also >had a digitizer sight. I wrote an interactive program to have an >engineer align the FAX on the plotter's plate and digitize points along >the different data lines. > >The points were stored in arrays and fed to a cubic-spline interpolation >program to recreate the line with more (smoother) points. The output was >formatted into lines to be uploaded to the IBM mainframe where our big >number-crunching trajectory analysis (M-50) program ran...it was much too >large for the 9845 to even dream of running. > >The data went out over a GTE 300-baud modem that was about as large as >one of today's VCRs. HP provided the (BASIC) software to do the actual >file transfer and communications with the mainframe. Someone else wrote >the programs on the mainframe to capture the uploaded data for feeding >into the M50 program. > >When the M50 finished, it put the data back into tabulated form and >downloaded it, one line at a time, to the HP. I wrote a suite of >programs that read in the captured data and parsed it into data arrays >which were plotted on the CRT for quick "DUMP GRAPHICS" snap-shots. We >also used the 9872 4-color plotter for comparison plots but the thermal >printer plots were needed quickly. > >Believe it or not, the process was fast enough that we once actually had >plots for T-15minute winds in time to run downstairs in Rockwell's >mission control room (3rd or 4th backup to NASA's MC in Houston) and see >a live launch on live NASA video feeds, including infra reds. > >After about the 5th shuttle flight, I was no longer on-call and other >engineers (all older than me because I was only 21 in 1981...I started >programming professionally right out of high school) were following my >procedures. I continued to make modifications for new features, etc., >until the 10th flight...I wrote every single byte of code for that suite >of programs except for the package to communicate over the modem! > >I had transferred to Seal Beach a few flights before Challenger >exploded. When I heard about it, I called one of the engineers >responsible for the "Day of Launch Flight Support Effort" and he told me >that that was the first flight that they didn't run the program (except >for STS-1 of course because we didn't know we needed it). > >They wouldn't have seen anything strange even if they had run the >program...but I like to imagine that my code would've warned them! :-) > >It's been a long time since I had a chance to brag about that. Thanks >for asking. BTW, I was the system administrator for that particular >9845. There were at least 3 others managed by different groups. I had >access anytime I wanted or needed it. As a result, I ignored the Apple >II, IBM PC, etc., until I migrated to the HP 9000/520. > >But even with the 9000/520 being such a step up, I bought an Amiga in >1986 and have been in love with Amigas ever since! > >Visit http://www.amiga.com or http://www.amiga.de if the first one is >down. > >Later, >David > >_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ >_/_/ David C. Waters _/_/ Integrated Business Solutions _/_/ >_/_/ Multimedia Business Answers _/_/ Video Audio CD-ROM Publishing _/_/ >_/_/ E-Mail: mbanet@netcom.com _/_/ World Wide Web and TV Access! _/_/ >_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ > > From mbg at world.std.com Fri Apr 30 08:08:05 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: More RT-11 questions Message-ID: <199904301308.AA06233@world.std.com> >Using a DEC RX01/02? if not RT-11 format will NOT owrk on the H11 disk. >You must use the heath H11 formatter (or I think the switch must be in >RX01 mode). In either case the H11 disk system is very different from >the DEC save for RX01 media compatability. Good point... >Alsi did you "init" the disks? the didks need to be init'd to establish >the RT-11 directory. The command in .INIT DXn: As we've been mentioning, V2C was too early in RTs life to have either CCL or DCL, so there is no init command (which would run DUP, but there is no DUP). Running PIP and issuing 'ddn:/Z[/N:n]' is the correct way to lay down an RT file structure on a volume which has been formatted. Aha... found the problem with the boot command I gave earlier... it should have been .R PIP *DX1:A=DX1:MONITR.SYS/U *This* writes the bootstrap... /O actually does a boot. Just for completeness, the options for V2C PIP (and I would suspect V2B as well) are: /A Ascii file transfer /B Formatted binary /C Only include files with current date /D delete specified file /E list directory, include empty space /F list directory, short form (filenames only) /G Ignore input errors during file transfer /I Image mode (default) /K For bad block scan, list absolute block numbers /L list directory /M:n File position for magtape or cassette tape /N:n Number of segments (used with /Z) /O Bootstrap the specified device /R Rename file (new=old) /S Compress (squeeze) device - not the same as a file compress, which encodes the file, this simply moves the files to the beginning of a volume, and all the empty space toward the end (remember, RT-11 file structure uses contiguous files) /T Extend number of blocks allocated for a file /U Write bootstrap to volume /V Print version number of PIP /W Include absolute starting block number for directory listings /X copy files individually without combining... /Y Must be used to perform operations on .SYS and .BAD files /Z[:n] Zero directory (with 'n' extra words per directory entry) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 30 09:29:20 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Can you identify these cards? In-Reply-To: <990429221951.20c010f8@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990430092920.39ef8652@intellistar.net> At 10:19 PM 4/29/99 -0400, you wrote: > >Looks like a ROM built out of a diode array. I'd make a WAG that it's >a bootstrap for some computer, but I don't know what. Judging by the >content list, I'd say it's a 18-bit computer of some sort, but I don't >recognize the board form factor or the opcodes. That's what I thought. It looks the codes are in octal since none of them are greater than 7. > >> The second one is a core memory board that I *think* may be for a Data >>General computer. I picked up several of these and they're all made by >>Dataram Corporation and appear to date from 1972. Their part number is >>3010290. I took the cover off of one. Man, the cores in these are tiny! > >They don't plug directly into a Nova's bus, at least. It's very likely >that these core cards plugged into a dedicated array backplane - note >the lack of bus interface circuitry near the edge connector, but obvious >core drivers. The array backplane would've contained other card(s) forming >the bus interface to the actual computer that used these core planes. If >you can give us the X by Y count of the cores, and tell us if the >cores are obviously divided into sections (12? 16? 18?), maybe we can >make more WAG's about where it plugs into :-). There are nine groups (3x3) each group has two sections. Each section has 32 x 16 cores. That makes 9162 cores (3x3x2x16x32). They're on a daughter board and there may be more on the bottom. Some of the cards are marked in pencil "8K" and some are marked "16K". Joe > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu Fri Apr 30 09:22:55 1999 From: jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: FREE: RS232 card for Data Printer Message-ID: <199904301422.JAA02521@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Hello - This is free for the shipping. RS232 I/O adapter p/n 42086G4 for a Data Printer Corp. band printer. This is a complete kit and has never been used. john -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Apr 30 09:39:14 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: part II Re: TRS-80 MODEL 16B HD is dead In-Reply-To: <3728F025.3F4E3B5A@hotoffice.com> References: <000a01be9290$c49fb760$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990430093914.00933ba0@207.207.0.212> Follow up: I'll take any parts not claimed BTW!! At 07:49 PM 4/29/1999 -0400, you wrote: >Howdy friends, > >I have unable to resurrect the Model 16B that I recovered from the >dumpster so, I'm parting that sucker out. If anyone needs any of the >components, you can have 'em for the cost of shipping from >South-Florida. First come first served. > >The only parts that I don't have are the disk drives or the keyboard. >Everything else is up for grabs. > >Since I never actually got the machine to run, I don't know which >components are good and which are bad. Although, I suspect the mother >board is the culprit. It has some minor corrosion and a few suspicious >solder connections. Everything *looks* to be in good shape. > >Obviously, there's no guarantee with this stuff :-) and I'd prefer it >goes to someone that really *needs* it. > >Later, > >Steve Robertson > > ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Fri Apr 30 09:54:22 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Inquiry Message-ID: <80256763.00525FBB.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Hi Stephanie! > I have a lot of the kid's computers, (Atari, Commodore, CoCo, etc), which > I am trying to keep alive. Does anyone know if I can substitute high > quality music tapes in place of computer tapes? Or where I can still > find computer cassette tapes for sale? My recollections are that the tape decks used for home computers were all fairly cheap. Even the Commodore ones, which you had to buy specially at vast cost, were quite cheap decks inside. (For commercial software production a friend and I used the deck from my hi-fi, but that's another story). The important thing is that very few of these decks could handle chromium dioxide or metal tapes properly. Ferric oxide tapes will give you the best results. Other than that, use any half-way decent brand. The really top brands will give the best results, but like many other contributors to this list, I never had any problems with cheap tapes (I couldn't afford decent ones when I was using home computers regularly). I have since tried the compact-cassette-sized "digital tapes" that were popular for backups and things a few years ago, but ordinary audio tapes work better. After all, the home computer market had to get quite big before "computer tapes" became readily available in small-town electronics shops and places. As far as I can tell, the only distinguishing feature of these tapes was the short length. Philip. PS Do I also have to say "Welcome to the list"? This is your first post isn't it? From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Apr 30 09:59:39 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: A collection of odd questions about a i386 machine... Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990430095939.00970100@207.207.0.212> I have finally gotten my GRiD 1530 laptop going!!! WHOO HOO!!! But, I have several questions... The processor problem... It's a i386... I'd like to get one of those 386 to 486 upgrade processors but, they seem to not be available. Can anyone tell me what I have to do to rig a 486 in there? The Hard drive oddity... Part I The laptop came with a Conner 3104 (100Mb) hard drive... I put this drive into my pentium desk top and used the segate software to verify the disk, then I formatted & did a scandisk, and loaded DOS. When it went to write COMMAND.COM and a few final files, it gave me a bunch of write errors... I took the same drive and put it in my old 486 desk top (with a NON-EIDE) controller and everything loaded fine!!!! Why did this happen??? Part II I have a 420Mb Conner drive that mates to the laptop's interface card. I loaded DOS and what not on it and then used the GRiD setup program to set the bios to the correct parameters and it still gives me a disc boot error! Why won't this drive work? ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Apr 30 09:37:42 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: pip help Message-ID: <990430103742.20c010f8@trailing-edge.com> >Hi Tim, > >At 10:58 PM 4/29/99 -0400, you wrote: >>.R PIP >>*DY1:FILE.OUT=DY0:FILE.IN >> >>wildcarding works, too. > >would wildcarding be *.* ? or some other characters? and is it >DX1:*.*=DX0:*.* > >My pip just responds ?OUT FIL? >and DX1:=DX0:*.* responds with : ?ILL DEV? Stretching my brain here, but I think you want: DX1:*.*=DX0:*.*/X/Y The "/X" means to copy the files individually, without concatenation The "/Y" means to copy the *.SYS files (without this, you'd get some ?NO SYS ACTION? messages). >>You also have to put a bootblock on the resulting disk to make it >>bootable, but I don't know how to do this (off the top of my head) >>in HT-11 (or RT-11 V2B). > >I'm guessing that the version of FORMAT does this because if I FORMAT a >disk and then DCOPY the HT-11B Distribution to it, it boots. DCOPY almost certainly does a block-by-block copy ("image mode"), not a file-by-file copy. So you'd naturally get the boot block. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Apr 30 10:23:38 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Seeking: EDUSystem software... Message-ID: Ok, someone has this stuff filed in the closet somewhere... B^} I'd (and some others around) like to find copies of one or more the various versions of the EDUSystem (timeshared BASIC) series of software for the PDP-8. (does anyone besides me see a VCF III demo coming on?) B^} The one source (pun intended) that I've located on the 'net for EDUSystem-25 is partially corrupted (in the math/init section), and so is of marginal use... Does someone have archives of this stuff hiding on some disk/tape/paper/etc. somewhere? Thanks! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Apr 30 10:28:59 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: HP 9845 and space schuttle program Message-ID: <01BE92FC.A4777A60.steverob@hotoffice.com> > >I actually used the 9845B (Model T) for Space Shuttle flight support > >(STS-2 through STS-24). I worked at Rockwell International Space Systems > >Division in Downey, California (now owned by Boeing). I started out in > >1979 doing bean-counting work. I wrote BASIC programs that create bar > >charts, plots, and tabulated data for the Flight Systems Design and > >Performance department. My manager, Bill Schleich, was the one who > >developed the shuttle's roll maneuver shortly after lift-off. Fascinating! Thanks Joe. Steve Robertson - From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Apr 30 10:37:52 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Fwd: decmate II Message-ID: <4.1.19990430112848.00ab89f0@206.231.8.2> Hey DEC DECMATE folks! The fellow whose msg is copied below is looking for some advice on re-belting a DECMATE II. As I have neither experience nor manual on the machine, I feel some of you may help instead as you're the types who really could. Email directly to Bill. The machine is somewhere in Minnesota. Thanks muchly! Regards, Chris -- -- >Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:42:58 -0500 >From: wdoherty >To: cfandt@netsync.net >Subject: decmateII > >My mother-in-law (you can see why this is important to me!) has a >DECMATEII Cira 1983. The belt on the printer broke. DEC will sell her >the belt but nobody knows how to put it on. can you recommend sites, >collectors, or hobbyiests who may have this knowledge? She is also >willing to sell to a collector. > >Thank you, >Bill Doherty > > -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From mark_k at iname.com Fri Apr 30 05:51:17 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Leaky nicad battery Message-ID: Hi, A few days ago I posted about an old PC board which had a leaky battery. I followed Allison's advice and neutralised the stuff with lemon juice. The fizzing/bubbling that happened when I did this suggests that cleaning with alcohol alone (say) is not really adequate. Anyway, after cleaning it up I checked all affected PCB traces with a multimeter. It turns out that none of them were corroded all the way through, so repairs weren't necessary. Cleaning the board didn't solve the problem that this PC has. On power on, it says (something like) 2A Keyboard failure. I can boot the machine and get into the setup menu by pressing Alt-Esc. However, the cursor keys and space bar do not work. At the DOS prompt, typing letter keys causes them to print twice (ddiirr, and so on). This is using a known good keyboard to test with. Does anyone have an idea as to what the problem might be? If it's in some custom-programmed keyboard controller or other custom chip, obviously the prospect of repair is slim. But the majority of chips on the PCB look fairly standard (PC is made in 1989 or 1990). -- Mark From mark_k at iname.com Fri Apr 30 13:13:43 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: GRiD disks Message-ID: Hi, Ages ago I picked up some disks that would have come with GRiD computers. The labels are as follows: ---- MS-DOS Version 3.21 11/87 103856-00 Copyright ? 1987 GRID Systems Corporation Mountain View, California 94043 ---- GRiDMaster (MS-DOS Format) Version 3.1.7 10/86 103816-00 Copyright ? 1986 GRiD Systems Corporation Mountain View, California 94043 ---- InteGRiD GRiDCase Family Version 3.2 11/86 103814-00 Copyright ? 1986 GRiD Systems Corporation Mountain View, California 94043 ---- INTEGRiD MS-DOS Format Version 3.3.0 11/87 103857-00 Copyright ? 1987 GRiD Systems Corporation Fremont, California 94538 ---- Does anyone need copies of these? And what exactly are InteGRiD and GRiDMaster? -- Mark From mark_k at iname.com Fri Apr 30 13:14:12 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Tandy Color Computer available in UK Message-ID: Hi, I have a working Tandy Color Computer (PAL version, as sold in the UK) to dispose of. From memory it comes with a user manual and little else. The previous owner seems to have added a DIN plug to the rear. Perhaps this provides composite video & audio output which the unmodified machine does not (RF output only). I'd like to swap it for an old PC base unit (386SX or better) which has at least three ISA slots. These are virtually worthless nowadays, right? Regards, -- Mark From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 30 12:36:23 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Leaky nicad battery Message-ID: <000801be932f$f78e59c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> did you try out this PC with a KNOWN working keyboard? I've had a few experiences with keyboards which would work with some systems and not others. I've got one, for example, which works fine, except . . . it is not recognized on power-up. I don't know why this is, but since it's the only problem I've encountered with it, it's on the server, which doesn't go through power cycles that often. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mark To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 30, 1999 11:35 AM Subject: Re: Leaky nicad battery >Hi, > >A few days ago I posted about an old PC board which had a leaky battery. I >followed Allison's advice and neutralised the stuff with lemon juice. The >fizzing/bubbling that happened when I did this suggests that cleaning with >alcohol alone (say) is not really adequate. > >Anyway, after cleaning it up I checked all affected PCB traces with a >multimeter. It turns out that none of them were corroded all the way through, >so repairs weren't necessary. > >Cleaning the board didn't solve the problem that this PC has. On power on, it >says (something like) 2A Keyboard failure. I can boot the machine and get into >the setup menu by pressing Alt-Esc. However, the cursor keys and space bar do >not work. At the DOS prompt, typing letter keys causes them to print twice >(ddiirr, and so on). This is using a known good keyboard to test with. > >Does anyone have an idea as to what the problem might be? If it's in some >custom-programmed keyboard controller or other custom chip, obviously the >prospect of repair is slim. But the majority of chips on the PCB look fairly >standard (PC is made in 1989 or 1990). > > >-- Mark > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri Apr 30 12:44:18 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: GRiD disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have a Grid laptop without backlighting on the LCD but might be interested in images from these disks. George Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Fri, 30 Apr 1999, Mark wrote: > Hi, > > Ages ago I picked up some disks that would have come with GRiD computers. The > labels are as follows: > > ---- > MS-DOS > Version 3.21 11/87 > 103856-00 > > Copyright © 1987 > GRID Systems Corporation > Mountain View, California 94043 > ---- > GRiDMaster > (MS-DOS Format) > Version 3.1.7 10/86 > 103816-00 > > Copyright © 1986 > GRiD Systems Corporation > Mountain View, California 94043 > ---- > InteGRiD > GRiDCase Family > Version 3.2 11/86 > 103814-00 > > Copyright © 1986 > GRiD Systems Corporation > Mountain View, California 94043 > ---- > INTEGRiD > MS-DOS Format > Version 3.3.0 11/87 > 103857-00 > > Copyright © 1987 > GRiD Systems Corporation > Fremont, California 94538 > ---- > > Does anyone need copies of these? And what exactly are InteGRiD and GRiDMaster? > > > -- Mark > > From ware at interaccess.com Fri Apr 30 13:03:43 1999 From: ware at interaccess.com (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Chicago warehouse sale Message-ID: Michael Soloma of Sol's Computer Works (from whom I have acquired quite a bit of classic gear) will be having a warehouse sale tomorrow (Saturday, May 1) here in Chicago. More information and a general list of items for sale or free (including data books, IBM XT/AT/PS2 systems, 286-486 clones, terminals, Apple IIs, Macs, drives, and boards) is available from his web site at http://www.chicweb.com/scw/ and http://www.chicweb.com/scw/4sale-details.htm The warehouse is located at 2650 W. Belden in Chicago, and his e-mail address is msoloma@megsinet.net. -- Scott Ware ware@interaccess.com From cmcmanis at freegate.com Fri Apr 30 13:18:29 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: RQDX3 break out board? Message-ID: <4.1.19990430111650.03d41e90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Ok, does anyone have an extra RQDX3 breakout board? This is the board that connects to the controller and then it has connectors for an RX50 and MFM hard drive(s). --Chuck From red at bears.org Fri Apr 30 13:14:30 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: PC question In-Reply-To: <199904301025.UAA01348@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Apr 1999, Huw Davies wrote: > Can certainly confirm that the earliest RS/6000s and some of the later ones > have a nice reset button on the front... I can confirm that both an SGI Indy and an SGI Indigo both have reset buttons on the front. The Indy's needs to be poked with something pointy, and the Indigo's sits behind its disk door, but they're there. Also, my HP 9000 715s have buttons marked "TOC" on their sides, near the power switch, which seem to function as reset buttons. Thinking about it.. there's a reset button on the back of each of my Apollos. The NeXTs don't even really have power switches. No SPARC-class Sun workstation I've ever seen has a reset button, and I'm reasonably certain that none of the Ultra Enterprise machines I run at work have reset switches. I've forgotten why we were discussing this. ok r. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 30 13:22:16 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: More RT-11 questions In-Reply-To: <199904301308.AA06233@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990430111858.00b68e10@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Wow! That is a lot of functionality packed into the PIP command! And here I thought it was only for copying files :-) Now I'm dying to go home and try these out. Thanks Megan. I've pretty much figured out that Drive 1 on this machine is marginal. I'm looking for a replacement. --Chuck At 09:08 AM 4/30/99 -0400, Megan wrote: >Aha... found the problem with the boot command I gave earlier... it >should have been > > .R PIP > *DX1:A=DX1:MONITR.SYS/U > >*This* writes the bootstrap... /O actually does a boot. > >Just for completeness, the options for V2C PIP (and I would suspect >V2B as well) are: > > /A Ascii file transfer > /B Formatted binary > /C Only include files with current date > /D delete specified file > /E list directory, include empty space > /F list directory, short form (filenames only) > /G Ignore input errors during file transfer > /I Image mode (default) > /K For bad block scan, list absolute block numbers > /L list directory > /M:n File position for magtape or cassette tape > /N:n Number of segments (used with /Z) > /O Bootstrap the specified device > /R Rename file (new=old) > /S Compress (squeeze) device - not the same as a > file compress, which encodes the file, this simply > moves the files to the beginning of a volume, and > all the empty space toward the end (remember, RT-11 > file structure uses contiguous files) > /T Extend number of blocks allocated for a file > /U Write bootstrap to volume > /V Print version number of PIP > /W Include absolute starting block number for directory > listings > /X copy files individually without combining... > /Y Must be used to perform operations on .SYS and .BAD files > /Z[:n] Zero directory (with 'n' extra words per directory entry) > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 30 13:39:19 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Other RT-11 boots In-Reply-To: <199904301308.AA06233@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990430113230.00bbf860@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Ok, and putting what I believe are 2 and 2 together, In a previous message I listed the contents of a two disk set that claims to be RT-11V2C. On those disks were files of the form: xxMNTFB.sys So to create a bootable volume, you find the one for your device, then copy it using PIP onto freshly formatted media as MONITR.SYS and then write the boot block using /U. Am I close? --Chuck From cmcmanis at freegate.com Fri Apr 30 13:43:40 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Getting RT-11 source to disk Message-ID: <4.1.19990430114153.03c8d910@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Ok, it looks like the only way I have of getting source code from the 'net on to the disks is to use EDIT and the "stuff text down the serial line" hack in hyperterm. Assuming that I set hyperterm to send text slowly. What are the minimum commands in EDIT to: 1) Open a new file. 2) Go into Insert Mode 3) Exit insert mode and save the file. --Chuck From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Apr 30 13:55:51 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Getting RT-11 source to disk Message-ID: <990430145551.20c01075@trailing-edge.com> >Ok, it looks like the only way I have of getting source code from the 'net >on to the disks is to use EDIT and the "stuff text down the serial line" >hack in hyperterm. Well, that's not the only way. There are a number of ways to get a PDP-11 directly on the net, and there's a wide variety of network- connectible machines that can read and write 8" floppies. > 1) Open a new file. > 2) Go into Insert Mode > 3) Exit insert mode and save the file. Seeing as how you'll be "stuffing text down the serial line", the easier way is probably to use PIP to make the source file. For example: .R PIP *MYSORC.MAC=TT: (at this point you stuff the text down the serial line, probably with a delay between characters and lines) * You now have the text you want in MYSORC.MAC. The EDIT.SAV executable you have is probably a rather vanilla version of TECO. Just to verify, try this (I use the convention that $ is ESCAPE or ALTMODE): .R EDIT *EWTEST.MAC$$ (this opens TEST.MAC for output) *I This is some text.$$ *V$$ This is some text.* EX$$ .R PIP *TT:=TEST.MAC This is some text. *^C Later versions of RT-11 have an EDIT.SAV that is *not* TECO. (For a long time, TECO.SAV didn't come with the distribution media - at least as an immediately obvious file - but as of 5.7 it's back.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 30 14:40:39 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: HT-11 bit bi bit In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990429231359.00b18280@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > Ok, so another clue discovered: > 1) Typing DX1:/Z "zeros" the directory on a > floppy. > 2) Trying this on drive 1 leaves the floppy > scrambled, doing it on drive 0 seems to > work. > > Trying DX0:A=DX1:MONITR.SYS/O does not write the boot block > > A disk formatted and zeroed is not mbootable. > > Since the source to FORMAT was included I thought I'd take a peek. It tells > the controller that is embedded in the drive "format that disk." and it does. > > There is a slim changce I've got a "spare" 8" drive that I can use to check > the alignment on my drive 1. Are all 8" drives the same on their connector? > (actually there are the NEC drives in the Chrislin box that aren't being > used at the moment. If the NEC drives in your Chrislin box are similar to those in my NEC APC, they are wired in a quite dissimilar manner. Mine are a 50-pin header connector (ala SCSI) and the signals are to and from the ODD pins vice EVEN on the card edge connector of a Shugart or other. - don > What the heck is used for "delete" on RT-11? backspace doesn't work nor > does DEL apparently. > > If anyone remembers how to actually assemble something I'd appreciate it. > WHen I run assembl it gives a '*' prompt, to which I can type > DX0:SAMPLE.MAC and it will assemble it except that it doesn't recognize any > of the macro definitions because it apparently hasn't included "SYSTEM.MLM" > or whatever it is. > > --Chuck > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 30 13:00:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: HT-11 bit bi bit In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990429231359.00b18280@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 29, 99 11:20:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 899 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990430/d2206e3a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 30 13:07:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Leaky nicad battery In-Reply-To: from "Mark" at Apr 30, 99 10:51:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1345 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990430/08316922/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 30 12:42:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: More RT-11 questions In-Reply-To: <199904300415.AA22794@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Apr 30, 99 00:15:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1301 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990430/b9fbe3b8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 30 13:14:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Inquiry In-Reply-To: <80256763.00525FBB.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Apr 30, 99 03:54:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1443 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990430/af10ec8d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 30 13:20:00 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Fwd: decmate II In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990430112848.00ab89f0@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Apr 30, 99 11:37:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1165 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990430/435f083c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 30 12:54:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Inquiry In-Reply-To: <01be92c6$18afb1e0$3c57ddcc@enduser> from "END USER" at Apr 29, 99 11:58:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2383 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990430/fd9ec75d/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Apr 30 15:01:05 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: More RT-11 questions Message-ID: <990430160105.20c0077d@trailing-edge.com> >Maybe early versions of RT11 choke if given disks which contain extra >words in the directory entries... No, *shouldn't* happen. This is said about PIP in the first version of RT-11: "The /Z switch clears and initializes the directory... the form of the command is: /Z:n where n is an octal number specifying the number of extra words per directory entry." All the RT-11 utilities have always gone to great pains to be compliant with directory entries that have extra words. On the other hand, some third party software hasn't been so kind, and my experience with HT-11 has been that there are some intentional and some unintentional incompatibilities. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From clintw at colorado.cirrus.com Fri Apr 30 15:09:48 1999 From: clintw at colorado.cirrus.com (Clint Wolff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Leaky nicad battery Message-ID: <199904302009.OAA14044@ws2044.colorado.cirrus.com> > > > > > Cleaning the board didn't solve the problem that this PC has. On power on, it > > says (something like) 2A Keyboard failure. I can boot the machine and get into > > the setup menu by pressing Alt-Esc. However, the cursor keys and space bar do > > not work. At the DOS prompt, typing letter keys causes them to print twice > > (ddiirr, and so on). This is using a known good keyboard to test with. > > > > Does anyone have an idea as to what the problem might be? If it's in some > > custom-programmed keyboard controller or other custom chip, obviously the > A "standard" PC keyboard outputs two messages for each key. One for the key-down, and a second for the key-up. The key-up code is the same as the key-down code with 0xF0 in front of it. This could be the cause of the double letters. clint From aknight at mindspring.com Fri Apr 30 15:15:30 1999 From: aknight at mindspring.com (Alex Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Help! Univac punch card machines .... In-Reply-To: <199904300755.AAA17627@saul2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990430161530.007a6100@mindspring.com> Hello, Well, I just got the results of my bidding on a bunch of computer stuff, and I ended up winning a pair of old Univac card punch machines. These things are the size of a desk. So, my question for those of you who are into the really big-iron stuff, is should I try to bring these things home? I am going to snag at least the keyboards and Univac signs off of them, but it will be a major chore to try to get the machines themselves out of there. And I'd probably have to pay for storage, as I don't have enough room at the house. FWIW, they're Univac models 1610 and 1710. Opinions welcome! And anybody in central North Carolina willing to help may get some free stuff ... Thanks, Alex From mbg at world.std.com Fri Apr 30 16:43:54 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: RQDX3 break out board? Message-ID: <199904302143.AA25165@world.std.com> >Ok, does anyone have an extra RQDX3 breakout board? This is the board >that connects to the controller and then it has connectors for an RX50 >and MFM hard drive(s). The one which goes into the BA123? Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Fri Apr 30 16:45:49 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Getting RT-11 source to disk Message-ID: <199904302145.AA26514@world.std.com> >Ok, it looks like the only way I have of getting source code from the >'net on to the disks is to use EDIT and the "stuff text down the serial >line" hack in hyperterm. Assuming that I set hyperterm to send text >slowly. What are the minimum commands in EDIT to: > > 1) Open a new file. > 2) Go into Insert Mode > 3) Exit insert mode and save the file. There is another way... .R PIP *file.typ=TT: <- at this point you stuff the characters down the line... when done, type ^Z Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Fri Apr 30 16:48:10 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Other RT-11 boots Message-ID: <199904302148.AA28001@world.std.com> >Ok, and putting what I believe are 2 and 2 together, >In a previous message I listed the contents of a two disk set that claims >to be RT-11V2C. On those disks were files of the form: > xxMNTFB.sys >So to create a bootable volume, you find the one for your device, then >copy it using PIP onto freshly formatted media as MONITR.SYS and then >write the boot block using /U. Am I close? "By George, I think he's got it..." I seem to remember that you don't even have to rename the file to MONITR.SYS, but that's typically what we did. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Fri Apr 30 16:56:33 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Getting RT-11 source to disk Message-ID: <199904302156.AA05279@world.std.com> >The EDIT.SAV executable you have is probably a rather vanilla version >of TECO. Just to verify, try this (I use the convention that $ is >ESCAPE or ALTMODE): As far as I know, EDIT was never a vanilla version of TECO... EDIT was EDIT, TECO was TECO. EDIT did, however, look sort of like TECO in that it had single-character and double-character commands with arguments, ending with . But where, in TECO, you would do 'LT', in EDIT you do 'AL'. They are NOT the same program. >Later versions of RT-11 have an EDIT.SAV that is *not* TECO. (For >a long time, TECO.SAV didn't come with the distribution media - at >least as an immediately obvious file - but as of 5.7 it's back.) From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Apr 30 16:56:09 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:40 2005 Subject: Fwd: decmate II In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990430112848.00ab89f0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19990430174938.00abae30@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 07:20 PM 4/30/99 +0100, Tony Duell said something like: >> >> Hey DEC DECMATE folks! >> >> The fellow whose msg is copied below is looking for some advice on >> re-belting a DECMATE II. As I have neither experience nor manual on the >> machine, I feel some of you may help instead as you're the types who really >> could. >> >> Email directly to Bill. The machine is somewhere in Minnesota. Thanks muchly! > >Sent to classiccmp, because I don't htink it will be of much help to the >owner... > >My first question is which _printer_ is this? IIRC the DECmate could use -- snip -- Well, I just passed the request for help onward to the list as I figured it was a knowlegeable resource in such matters. I thought I recognized DECMATE as being a computer but I was not sure. I don't have/never saw/own no docs/recall poorly any such discussions/may not ever see anything DECMATE for some time if ever one comes my way. Sorry to have wasted the list bandwidth with this but the fellow would appreciate a bit of help if nobody has yet replied. From mbg at world.std.com Fri Apr 30 17:02:32 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:41 2005 Subject: More RT-11 questions Message-ID: <199904302202.AA09580@world.std.com> >MY first guess (assuming the physical format is identical, which isn't >absolutely certain) is that there are extra words at the end of each >directory entry. An RT11 directory entry consists of the filename, date, >status and number of blocks that it corresponds to (note that the >starting block is _not_ stored - you have to count the blocks used by all >previous entries to figure that out). But it's possible at format-time to >specify that each entry contains a number of extra words for the user to >make use of. The PERQ interchange disk, while nominally an RT11 format, >has 1 extra word in each directory entry that stores the number of bits >used in the last block of the file, for example. >Maybe early versions of RT11 choke if given disks which contain extra >words in the directory entries... But V2C definitely has the support for extra directory entry words. The number of extra words for an entry is part of the directory header (at the beginning of each directory segment). >Most likely the result of someone PIPing to TT rather than TT: Yep... Remember, TT and TT: are different... the first is a file called TT, the second is a device called TT... The device block used for file operations is 4 words long, with the first word being the device name (in rad50), the next two words being the 6 character file name (in rad50), and the last word is the file typ (extension, in rad50). If you type TT, the CSI (the Command String Interpreter) will build the following dblk (as it is called): .rad50 /DK/ .rad50 /TT / .rad50 / / whereas if you type TT:, the CSI creates the following dblk: .rad50 /TT / .rad50 / / .rad50 / / Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Apr 30 17:10:30 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:41 2005 Subject: The usual mumbles In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990429214548.48b75b30@intellistar.net> Message-ID: What a sight, 75% of my favorite salvage yard lined up like troops for dismisal, all headed for a big truck on Tuesday. I made a final scrounge yesterday, looked at the bottom of piles not looked at for, maybe a long time, and roamed the heap screwdriver in hand getting the tidbits I could. Bad news The Vax station II and HP 7945 I thought would be safe since they arrived just last week are part of the deal and going. Much of the odd working bits will go in the dumpster for lack of understanding. Good news Who says there is anything good about this? ;) Who knows, maybe lots of space will attract a lot of newer stuff. Found, didn't get, but wonder about anyway. Long narrow metal drawer full of punched cards dated Nov 1968, looked like maybe a program and associated data. IBM 4865 3.5" external floppy drive. Found, did get, now what? Someone asked me about AST processor modules, so I plucked 3, (2) 386, and (1) with a empty green zif socket labeled Overdrive Ready. I left behind the gutted Next Color Slab, but took the black keyboard. Will the Next keyboard work on a Mac, it looks ADB? I am running a little slow. One Decus the big joke was a story from one of the early speakers about a user complaining about the Vax running slow that week. Well, to all the people I should be getting back to on stuff, I am running a little slow this week, AND my brain is showing a lot of parity errors, so REMIND about stuff I am supposed to do for you if I haven't done it yet. If I get an insane rush of energy from all the cold pills I am taking I plan to attempt the Santee swapmeet (10 miles east of San Diego, first of hamfest swaps in Socal each month and a real JUNKFEST). From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Apr 30 17:49:29 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:41 2005 Subject: Indy keyboard? In-Reply-To: References: <199904301025.UAA01348@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: >On Fri, 30 Apr 1999, Huw Davies wrote: > >> Can certainly confirm that the earliest RS/6000s and some of the later ones >> have a nice reset button on the front... > >I can confirm that both an SGI Indy and an SGI Indigo both have reset >buttons on the front. The Indy's needs to be poked with something pointy, >and the Indigo's sits behind its disk door, but they're there. One of my friends picked up a SGI Indigo (he calls it a purple), and he doesn't have a keyboard for it (or mouse I suspect), what will work? He tried a PC keyboard I think, and got "keyboard error". From red at bears.org Fri Apr 30 18:15:12 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:41 2005 Subject: Indy keyboard? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Apr 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > One of my friends picked up a SGI Indigo (he calls it a purple), and he > doesn't have a keyboard for it (or mouse I suspect), what will work? He > tried a PC keyboard I think, and got "keyboard error". On an R4000 or R4400 Indigo, a standard PS/2 compatible keyboard and mouse may be used. The SGI OEM parts are made by NMB, and are similar to their RightTouch keyboards. I can't speak for an R3000 Indigo but I suspect it uses the same type of keyboard the Personal Iris series used, which isn't PC compatible at all, and hasn't even a connector such a thing could plug into (I believe it's a 15 pin Dsub). ok r. From mbg at world.std.com Fri Apr 30 18:25:22 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:41 2005 Subject: More RT-11 questions Message-ID: <199904302325.AA06998@world.std.com> >Wow! That is a lot of functionality packed into the PIP command! And here >I thought it was only for copying files :-) RT utilities are deceptively simple and yet powerful. I have a copy of the RT-11 System reference card here in front of me, so if you need anything else, just ask... >Now I'm dying to go home and try these out. Thanks Megan. Any time... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 30 18:39:55 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:41 2005 Subject: The usual mumbles In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Apr 30, 99 03:10:30 pm Message-ID: <199904302339.QAA23888@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 566 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990430/5d6f2475/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Fri Apr 30 18:51:42 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:41 2005 Subject: The usual mumbles In-Reply-To: <199904302339.QAA23888@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Apr 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > the gutted Next Color Slab, but took the black keyboard. Will the Next > > keyboard work on a Mac, it looks ADB? > > It's ADB, and I REALLY doubt it would work, however, that's a really > interesting question! I'd recommend only trying it on a Mac you don't care > about if you can't get a answer to this. Not all NeXT hardware used ADB. In fact, most didn't. The stuff that did, however, uses a real, honest-to-goodness ADB interface. A NeXT ADB keyboard or mouse will work just fine on a Mac which uses ADB. The ADB version of the NeXT keyboard features little round buttons for sound up/down, brightness up/down, and power (this little round button is green) whereas the non-ADB NeXT keyboards have regular keytops there. Also, there should be a "command bar" along the bottom edge, instead of the two command keys found on the non-ADB keyboards. The NeXT ADB mouse (known as the "batman mouse") is round, with two dramatically shaped buttons sprouting from the front edge, which I believe have wavy surfaces. It's very art-deco. The non-ADB mouse is rectangular and very boringly shaped in comparison. ok r. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 30 20:20:36 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:41 2005 Subject: Help! Univac punch card machines .... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990430161530.007a6100@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Apr 1999, Alex Knight wrote: > Well, I just got the results of my bidding on a bunch of > computer stuff, and I ended up winning a pair of old > Univac card punch machines. These things are the size > of a desk. > > So, my question for those of you who are into the > really big-iron stuff, is should I try to bring these > things home? I am going to snag at least the keyboards > and Univac signs off of them, but it will be a major > chore to try to get the machines themselves out of there. > And I'd probably have to pay for storage, as I don't > have enough room at the house. FWIW, they're Univac > models 1610 and 1710. Just taking the keyboard and nametag is not preservation, but trophying. But while I discourage the wanton disregard for the actual hardware, which is really the part that's worth preserving, I realize not everyone has the facilities to store such a large artifact. I suggest you try to find someone in your area who is capable of and willing to store the beasts. If you can't find anyone then let me know. I know of someone in Pennsylvania who would be happy to drive down with a truck and pick up at least one whole machine. (If you were any closer I'd be over there to pick one up myself). Good luck! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 30 20:35:23 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:41 2005 Subject: Cosmac ELF article in Popular Electronics Message-ID: I scanned the two-part Cosmac "ELF" article from the August and September 1976 issues of Popular Electronics for someone and stuck them on the VCF website. Although they aren't the best scans (72dpi, greyscale) they are legible. However there are some parts that may not be readable. Anyway, they are avaialble at the following URLs: http://www.vintage.org/crap/elf1.jpg http://www.vintage.org/crap/elf2.jpg http://www.vintage.org/crap/elf3.jpg http://www.vintage.org/crap/elf4.jpg http://www.vintage.org/crap/elf5.jpg http://www.vintage.org/crap/elf6.jpg http://www.vintage.org/crap/elf7.jpg http://www.vintage.org/crap/elf8.jpg http://www.vintage.org/crap/elf9.jpg http://www.vintage.org/crap/elf10.jpg http://www.vintage.org/crap/elf11.jpg These are fairly big files (~350K - 500K each). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Apr 30 20:39:52 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:41 2005 Subject: VAX 8600 added to the VCF Archives Message-ID: This one will NOT be converted into a bar: http://www.vintage.org/crap/vax1.jpg (the gap on the right is caused by an uneven floor in the warehouse) http://www.vintage.org/crap/vax2.jpg http://www.vintage.org/crap/vax3.jpg Look at the size of that power connector!!! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99] From rcini at email.msn.com Fri Apr 30 19:00:03 1999 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:43:45 2005 Subject: New stuff posted Message-ID: <000201be93cb$2432b660$c8752599@office1> Hello, all: Last night, I finished uploading the final AIM65 book; the AIM65 User's Guide. The next projects: First Book of KIM, and PC/AT Tech Ref. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator