From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Oct 1 00:50:22 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:36:57 2005 Subject: IBM XT286 Message-ID: It is IBM's clone of the PC/AT with a few exceptions. Hmm, I'm sure you don't mean "IBM's clone of the PC/AT", since IBM could hardly clone their own product. The XT-286 is actually a warmed-over PC-XT motherboard design, adapted to use the 80286 CPU. It was a product positioned in between the XT and the AT in IBM's lineup. 3. Some AT boards will not fit into it. Actually, no AT boards will fit into it. Although it used the AT's 286 CPU, it retained the XT's 8-bit bus, and was limited to 640K RAM (no 16-bit RAM expansion available). In a sense, you can almost think of it as a "286SX", since it is largely analogous to the 386SX in that it had a bus half the width of the CPU internal core (although I'm not sure whether the motherboard RAM was 8- or 16-bit). The XT-286 failed, not just because of its limited expansion versus the AT, but due to competition from the Turbo XT (8-10MHz 8088/NECV20) market, which had similar performance. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Gene Ehrich [mailto:g@ehrich.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 1998 6:23 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: RE: IBM XT286 >Alas the only information I have on the XT-286 is the circuit diagrams. >It's pretty much an electronic 'clone' of the PC/AT in a different case. >I also seem to remember that the ROM BIOS is almost identical to the >later AT BIOS. I have an XT/286 in a box and used it for many years. It is IBM's clone of the PC/AT with a few exceptions. 1. It uses an XT case 2 It is 6mhz with 0 (zero) wait states. 3. Some AT boards will not fit into it. Due to the zero wait states it is faster than other 6mhz AT's that do have wait states. gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From rax at warbaby.com Thu Oct 1 02:42:30 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:36:58 2005 Subject: Trivia Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Rax wrote: > >> Sometime in the mid-seventies, Queen Elizabeth became the first monarch to >> send an email. Does anyone know the year, to whom she sent it, and what the >> circumstances were? > >1976, Jimmy Carter, "congrats, dude!" > >-- Doug Really? She said "congrats, dude!"? Wow! I always thought the Queen was cool, but I didn't realize she was *that* cool... R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 1 02:38:50 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:36:58 2005 Subject: It boots from ESDI Message-ID: Good grief what a week this has been, but I finally got the PDP-11 I'm trying to put together to boot off of a ESDI harddrive. Not the processor or disk controller I was expecting, for all that goes not the version of RSX-11M I was expecting, but it's up and running. At the moment it is running a PDP-11/23+ instead of the /73, has a RLV12 in it, and is missing basically all the boards. However, tomorrow I'm hoping to basically get the hardware back into the configuration that I want. I had two problems. First, for some reason I couldn't get RSX11M to like the Webster WQESD controller I was trying to use, so I switched to a Emulex QD21, and was able to load the TK50 onto the Harddrive. But it wouldn't boot once I got that done last night. Foolish me thinking it wasn't bootable drug a RL02 drive and controller into the house tonite :^( Turns out that I'd gotten the DIP switches mixed up Once I had them right (and the system totally rearranged) it booted off DU0: despite my wanting to go from DL0: :^) If work doesn't interfere tomorrow night, I'm going to be having some fun with this system :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From aaron at wfi-inc.com Thu Oct 1 03:56:48 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:36:58 2005 Subject: 486 DX/2 66mhz Message-ID: Is anyone in dire need of one of these? I was bulldozing through my office today and ran across this one lonely processor sitting in a drawer. Please respond to me directly... Aaron From Aaron_J_Hayden at student.ferris.edu Thu Oct 1 06:15:12 1998 From: Aaron_J_Hayden at student.ferris.edu (Aaron_J_Hayden@student.ferris.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:36:59 2005 Subject: New to the list Message-ID: <85256690.003DD1A2.00@fsunotes2.ferris.edu> Howdy all, My name is Aaron Hayden and I have recently joined the list. Currently in my collection I have a C64, a PC Jr., a Hero robot and my trusty 486-66. I enjoy using the older systems and in some cases I think they're a bit more user friendly (at least for me). I was looking for some info on my PC Jr. and found the list. I'm sure I'll gain some knowledge and hopefully give some too. Which brings me to my first question... I was just recently given the PC Jr. however it seems it doesn't work. I have only plugged it in a couple times but haven't looked at it much more than that. I also do not have any documentation on it so I'm flying blind. When I turn it on the screen turns all grey. Anybody have this problem before? It has been sitting for a while but worked fine until it was boxed up. It came w/ two power supplies so maybe their both bad? Any ideas? thanks in advance. Aaron From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 1 08:32:11 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:36:59 2005 Subject: Can anyone identify this vax for sale on Ebay? Message-ID: <199810011332.AA12266@world.std.com> < And of course DECsystems might be 36 bit (DECsystem-10 for example), 32 < (DECsystem 5500) or something else (wasn't there a DECsystem based on < either an -8 < or -11? for word processing). I also seem to recall that there were Inte < based DECstations too.... There were two different DEC systems for word processing: WPS 100 and 200 series were PDP-8E or 8A cpus WPS78 6100 CMOS version of PDP-8 DECmate later version of the CMOS based word procesors using the 6120 version of the CMOS PDP-8 on a chip. A possibly incomplete list of DEC systems and what the cpu was used... more or less. These are all "chip" based so it leaves out the PDP-1 through 15 series machines. DECMATE series 6120 processor (a PDP8 in CMOS) VAXmate Intel 80286 oriented as diskless PC workstation for vaxen. DECstation MIPS series Rainbow 8088/z80 Pro3xx PDP-11 (f11 or J11 chips) PDT-11 series KDA11 (LSI-11 series) Falcon T-11 series pdp-11 chip Vt180 (AKA Robin) Z80 MicroVAX VAXstation VAXserver These are VAX systems based on Microvax, CVAX, NVAX and later 32bit VAX based chips. Alpha 64bit archetecture and the chip series based on it. Allison From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Oct 1 08:54:51 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:36:59 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-1, 2, 4, 5 series Message-ID: <199810011354.GAA20284@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 702 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981001/219e9be6/attachment.ksh From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Oct 1 09:05:39 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:36:59 2005 Subject: Apple Questions In-Reply-To: <199809300543.BAA17290@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Lawrence Walker wrote: > To not appear as a complete idiot, since it would stand to reason that the > Monitor /// would have come with the A/// , I ran across this somewhere when > researching my monitor find. The way I remember it is that there was some delay > in the A/// intro and they put out the ready to go A/// monitor since it would Also, don't forget that the Apple ][ series was available for years after the introduction (demise?) of the A///. Even if the Monitor /// came out with the A///, they still could have sold it for years with the ][. For reference, I got my A//e in about 1986. They were no longer selling the M///. A friend who got his A//e in 1983ish got the M/// with it. The A/// came out in (IIRC) 1980. ttyl srw From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Oct 1 09:18:46 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:36:59 2005 Subject: Can anyone identify this vax for sale on Ebay? In-Reply-To: <199810010208.MAA11206@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Huw Davies wrote: > And of course DECsystems might be 36 bit (DECsystem-10 for example), 32 bit > (DECsystem 5500) or something else (wasn't there a DECsystem based on > either an -8 > or -11? for word processing). Are you thinking of the DecMates? I believe these are -8 based. (actually a 6120(?) CPU, which is a uP version of a -8) Speaking of such... does anyone have any manuals for a DecMate 2 that they would like to get rid of? I have it running with the disk images from Sunsite, but have no clue how to use it. (I did get the games disks going, including Adventure :-) ttyl srw From oajones at bright.net Thu Oct 1 09:24:15 1998 From: oajones at bright.net (oajones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:36:59 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-1, 2, 4, 5 series References: <199810011354.GAA20284@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3613908F.5169@bright.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Hi all: > > Does anyone have a Tandy Pocket Computer (preferably PC-4, since I still > have the manuals) they might be persuaded to part with? My PC-4 gave up the > ghost, and I think the RAM pack in it is shot also, and I'd really love to > get my hands on one of these neat little gems again. > > Thanks, > Hi Cameron, http:\\www.simology.com/trs80again/computers.html They have one computer in stock for $60 plus shipping and it includes a cassette interface. --Alan -- Computing since: 1982, VIC-20, CoCo, PC, CP/M Military Computers: COMTRAN 10, Nida 250 Amateur Radio since: 1971, WN8JEF, KA6EXR, N8BGR, AA4ZI BASIC, dBASE, Assembly, C++ http://www.bright.net/~oajones From oajones at bright.net Thu Oct 1 09:35:40 1998 From: oajones at bright.net (oajones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:36:59 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-1, 2, 4, 5 series References: <199810011354.GAA20284@oa.ptloma.edu> <3613908F.5169@bright.net> Message-ID: <3613933C.34BC@bright.net> oajones wrote: > > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > Hi all: > > > > Does anyone have a Tandy Pocket Computer (preferably PC-4, since I still > > have the manuals) they might be persuaded to part with? My PC-4 gave up the > > ghost, and I think the RAM pack in it is shot also, and I'd really love to > > get my hands on one of these neat little gems again. > > > > Thanks, > > > Hi Cameron, http://www.simology.com/trs80again/computers.html > > They have one computer in stock for $60 plus shipping and it includes a > cassette interface. > > --Alan > -- Computing since: 1982, VIC-20, CoCo, PC, CP/M Military Computers: COMTRAN 10, Nida 250 Amateur Radio since: 1971, WN8JEF, KA6EXR, N8BGR, AA4ZI BASIC, dBASE, Assembly, C++ http://www.bright.net/~oajones From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Oct 1 05:37:43 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:36:59 2005 Subject: Wang Thang Revisited Message-ID: <199810011441.KAA28670@smtp.interlog.com> In trying to finf info re my Wang , Wang Users Group turned up empty, so I did a general search on "Wang". What fun. I found out there's a hell of a lot more Wangs than Jones out there. And a good proportion of them are scientists. Wangs like to display themselves and one even had pictures of his wife and his sister on his page. Among the Wangs on display were Joy C Wang, Junping Wang, Leiping Wang, Linping Wang and the saddest, Weiping Wang (maybe a pseudonym for linping) There was Gang Wang and Wang Man but the most impressive Wang was : Wang Jinrey a fighting philosopher Nationality China Fighting Style shin-irokugoken Age 84 Height 165cm Weight 56kg Bloodtype B I was especially impressed that they included this fighting philosophers blood type. I also found out that bin wang wasn't a binary file and wang fan wasn't a computer enthusiasts group. There was also a geographical perspective with the Phuket jewelry shop in Wang Talang Siam , the King Wang Hotel in Taiwan, and the Wang Centre for the Performance Arts in Boston. There's also a Wang differential geometrical theorum used wildly by scientists. Then I dicovered I could finger wang@risc and after 60 Lycos pages of URLs with nary an end in site ,my energy petered out I was getting giddy and laughing hysterically at every Wang thang . There's just too damn many Wangs out there and I exited without finding any references to my Wang.. On a less humorous note I did find a UK source for Wang and NEC as well as other laptop batteries. MDS Batteries. Likely pricey to ship them this side of the pond but they did have some specs so maybe one could make yer'own. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Oct 1 09:46:16 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:36:59 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-1, 2, 4, 5 series In-Reply-To: <3613933C.34BC@bright.net> from "oajones" at Oct 1, 98 10:35:40 am Message-ID: <199810011446.HAA20426@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 425 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981001/2e122a70/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Oct 1 09:53:08 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:36:59 2005 Subject: Wang Thang Revisited In-Reply-To: <199810011441.KAA28670@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Oct 1, 98 10:37:43 am Message-ID: <199810011453.HAA13980@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 828 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981001/e72ad693/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Oct 1 10:41:32 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:36:59 2005 Subject: Wang Thang Revisited Message-ID: <95ba9440.3613a2ac@aol.com> uh, im still trying to decide how this relates to classiccmp... In a message dated 10/1/98 7:45:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, lwalker@mail.interlog.com writes: << Then I dicovered I could finger wang@risc and after 60 Lycos pages of URLs with nary an end in site ,my energy petered out I was getting giddy and laughing hysterically at every Wang thang . There's just too damn many Wangs out there and I exited without finding any references to my Wang.. >> From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Oct 1 10:58:34 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: als for it Message-ID: Yes, I've seen a 1.01, but I don't think it was a retail version (perhaps some limited bundle with an OEM computer). I'll ask our Archives. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Walker [mailto:lwalker@mail.interlog.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 1998 9:01 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: als for it On 30 Sep 98 at 9:19, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > To the best of my knowledge, there was no Windows 1.00. As I recall, we > released 1.03 as the first version. > > 1.03 was available only on 360K 5 1/4" and had no VGA support. 1.04 was the > same as 1.03 except it was available only on 720K 3 1/2" and supported the > PS/2 _exclusively_. > > Kai > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Ismail [mailto:dastar@ncal.verio.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 8:16 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Windows 1.0? > > Someone posted recently that they have the originals (or copies) of > Windows 1.0? Could you please get in touch with me? > > Sam Alternate e-mail: Sorry Kai, I usually tend to take your MS statements as gospel but in this case I've just been looking at the flash page and desktop of Windows 1.01 copyrighted 1984 and the files are dated 11-15-85. Unless this was a pirated version smuggled out of MS or an elaborate put-on it must be the first issue. It has a somewhat-Norton Commander style desktop but has most of the utilities of the later version - notepad, write, calendar ,etc. and a pif-editor and win.ini. It comes on 5 360k disks with a set-up program that builds a small Win.com and an much larger overlay binarie. As you mention it doesn't support VGA and the readme file has a lot of references to problems with AboveBoard (the Intel mem-expansion card). I've had it for a short while and just now installed it on an 8580 PS2 running DRDOS. While I can get the desktop the utilities hang with the familiar hourglass. I just tried it on my 5150 which has an Inboard card and uses the A20 handler but only 1meg memory and also heavily configured and with Dos 5. It crashed leaving me at the prompt. Using my favorite shell CMFiler got me to a blank screen before crashing . Likely memory related. I'm going to try it on one of my 286s' using an earlier dos and with one of 1.01's memory handlers emm.at or emm.xt (dated 7-30-85) in autoexec. I have of course no manual. I do run on, sorry. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From Marty at itgonline.com Thu Oct 1 12:02:00 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: ESDI Cabling Message-ID: <1998Oct01.130028.1767.143584@smtp.itgonline.com> ESDI cabling is definitely the ST506/412 interface used on old MFM (e.g. Seagate ST-225) or RLL (e.g. Seagate ST-238). If the 34-pin control cable is straight through (without the twist) select drive 0 if the selection is 0 and 1. If the selection is drive 1 and 2, select drive 1 (nomenclature varies among manufacturers). Ensure the terminating resistors are installed or you are asking for trouble. If the 34-pin control cable has a twist and you have only one drive attached to the end of the cable with the twist, use drive select 1 if your drive nomenclature is 0 and 1. If the drive select nomenclature is 1 and 2, select drive 2 and make certain you have the terminating resistors installed. Two drive scenario: 34-pin control cable with twist, drive at end of cable with twist use drive select 1 if drive has 0 and 1 as drive selects or 2 if using 1 and 2 drive selects and again ensure the terminating resistors are installed in this drive. The drive in the middle of chain should use drive select 1 if drive has 0 and 1 as drive selects or 2 if using 1 and 2 drive selects (yes, use the same drive select as the C: drive attached to the end of the cable) and make certain the terminating resistors are removed from this drive which will be seen as D: drive. If the 34-pin cable has no twist, C: drive is set for 0 (if drive selects are 0 and 1) or 1 (if drive selects are 1 and 2) and connected at the end of the cable with the terminating resistors installed; D: drive is set for 1 (if using drive selects 0 and 1) or 2 (if using drive select 1 and 2), connected in the middle of the chain and must have the terminating resistors removed. Marty From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Oct 1 07:58:22 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Can anyone identify this vax for sale on Ebay? In-Reply-To: References: <199810010208.MAA11206@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <199810011701.NAA03178@smtp.interlog.com> On 1 Oct 98 at 8:18, Scott Walde wrote: > On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Huw Davies wrote: > > > And of course DECsystems might be 36 bit (DECsystem-10 for example), 32 bit > > (DECsystem 5500) or something else (wasn't there a DECsystem based on > > either an -8 > > or -11? for word processing). > > Are you thinking of the DecMates? I believe these are -8 based. > (actually a 6120(?) CPU, which is a uP version of a -8) > > Speaking of such... does anyone have any manuals for a DecMate 2 that > they would like to get rid of? I have it running with the disk images > from Sunsite, but have no clue how to use it. (I did get the games disks > going, including Adventure :-) > > ttyl > srw > Doh. See my previous post to Allison. I have illusions of somehow one day cramming a Decmate into my already bulging quarters and I don't have a scanner yet, but maybe we can work things out. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Oct 1 07:58:20 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Can anyone identify this vax for sale on Ebay? In-Reply-To: <199810011332.AA12266@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810011701.NAA03192@smtp.interlog.com> On 1 Oct 98 at 9:32, Allison J Parent wrote: > < And of course DECsystems might be 36 bit (DECsystem-10 for example), 32 > < (DECsystem 5500) or something else (wasn't there a DECsystem based on > < either an -8 > < or -11? for word processing). I also seem to recall that there were Inte > < based DECstations too.... > > There were two different DEC systems for word processing: > > WPS 100 and 200 series were PDP-8E or 8A cpus > WPS78 6100 CMOS version of PDP-8 > > DECmate later version of the CMOS based word procesors using the 6120 > version of the CMOS PDP-8 on a chip. > > A possibly incomplete list of DEC systems and what the cpu was used... > more or less. These are all "chip" based so it leaves out the PDP-1 > through 15 series machines. > > DECMATE series 6120 processor (a PDP8 in CMOS) > VAXmate Intel 80286 oriented as diskless PC workstation for vaxen. > DECstation MIPS series > > Rainbow 8088/z80 > > Pro3xx PDP-11 (f11 or J11 chips) > PDT-11 series KDA11 (LSI-11 series) > Falcon T-11 series pdp-11 chip > > Vt180 (AKA Robin) Z80 > > MicroVAX > VAXstation > VAXserver These are VAX systems based on Microvax, CVAX, NVAX and > later 32bit VAX based chips. > > Alpha 64bit archetecture and the chip series based on it. > > > Allison Allison, just how compatable were the Rainbow and Decmate ll. I have a Decmatell Word Processing 2 book manual no disks and another Decmate Hardware Configuration Manual with a System Test Disk and a system overview disk which I have viewed on my "Bow. From all the diagrams they were identical in appearance and seemed to have used the same keyboard and monitor. IIRC from the R'bow fido docs I downloaded from the Finnish site the Bow could use SCO UNIX (?) Was the 'bow able to access the mini's ? ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Thu Oct 1 12:12:23 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation Mice Message-ID: <199810011712.NAA04767@shell.monmouth.com> Is it possible to make regular Mouse-System-Clone bus mouse or Sun Mice work on a DEC Vaxstation 3100 -- or does anyone have a source of the DEC mice? Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Oct 1 08:31:52 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Wang Thang Revisited In-Reply-To: <95ba9440.3613a2ac@aol.com> Message-ID: <199810011735.NAA10236@smtp.interlog.com> On 1 Oct 98 at 11:41, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > uh, im still trying to decide how this relates to classiccmp... > > In a message dated 10/1/98 7:45:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > lwalker@mail.interlog.com writes: > > << Then I dicovered I could finger wang@risc and after 60 Lycos pages of URLs > with nary an end in site ,my energy petered out I was getting giddy and > laughing hysterically at every Wang thang . There's just too damn many Wangs > out there and I exited without finding any references to my Wang.. >> > It's about trying to find info about old computers on the "web" Lighten up Dave . My attempt at humour (Canadian sp ) All the sites can be accessed .I find it hillarious and I don't usually laugh at my own jokes. Oh Well "Please some of the people - - - - - - - - - - " ciao larry PS: At least it wasn't about calibre of killing machines. lwalker@interlog.com From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Oct 1 13:08:55 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Windows 1.0? In-Reply-To: Kai Kaltenbach's message of Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:19:12 -0700 References: Message-ID: <199810011808.LAA07366@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > To the best of my knowledge, there was no Windows 1.00. As I recall, we > released 1.03 as the first version. MSKB article ID Q32905 "Windows Version History" makes reference to Version 1.01 dated 11/85 (it is the first version listed), followed by 1.03 dated 8/86. -Frank McConnell From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 1 13:30:38 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Can anyone identify this vax for sale on Ebay? Message-ID: <199810011830.AA18530@world.std.com> < Allison, just how compatable were the Rainbow and Decmate ll. With what? if each other the answer is not at all. The Rainbow was sorta PC(ish) using z80 and 8088. The DECMATE used a PDP-8 cpu reduced to a chip. Differences, PDP-8 is a 12bit machine and the other two should be familiar. < I have a Decmatell Word Processing 2 book manual no disks and < another Decmate Hardware Configuration Manual with a System < Test Disk and a system overview disk which I have viewed on my < "Bow. From all the diagrams they were identical in appearance and < seemed to have used the same keyboard and monitor. IIRC from < the R'bow fido docs I downloaded from the Finnish site the Bow < could use SCO UNIX (?) Was the 'bow able to access the mini's ? The used a similar box, same Floppy (RX50), if it was installed the same 5/10mb hard disks, monitor and keyboard as those were all coperate standards for that era. other wise they were three different machines (the pro350 was similar style and peripherals). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 1 13:30:50 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation Mice Message-ID: <199810011830.AA18704@world.std.com> < Is it possible to make regular Mouse-System-Clone bus mouse or Sun Mice < work on a DEC Vaxstation 3100 -- or does anyone have a source of < the DEC mice? I don't think so. Allison From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Oct 1 13:59:52 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: KL-10 Emulation Underway Message-ID: <13392358034.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> This message was supposed to have gotten here a while ago, but it never did. Myself and a few other individuals are actively working on a KL-10 emulation. The project is named e10, and is 3.99% finished. I'm busy confusing myself with 36-bit math right now. Anyway, help would be nice to complete this fscker. It's being written in C for Unix platforms, it's under the GPL. Please don't email me and tell me how stupid this is, or how I'm never going to finish, I'm trying my damndest to maintain the Never-Give-Up attitude. I plan to be winning by Y2K. Anyway, does anyone want to help out? I generated a web page (Using vi, of course...) at bony.umtec.com, and the current source can be had from there via FTP in /pub/ka10/*. Any help at all would be appreciated. ------- From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Oct 1 14:10:51 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation Mice In-Reply-To: <199810011830.AA18704@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 1, 98 02:30:50 pm Message-ID: <199810011910.MAA04146@fraser.sfu.ca> I have a spare round DEC mouse. Anyone interested can email me at mcquiggi@sfu.ca Kevin > > > < Is it possible to make regular Mouse-System-Clone bus mouse or Sun Mice > < work on a DEC Vaxstation 3100 -- or does anyone have a source of > < the DEC mice? > > I don't think so. > > Allison > > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 1 12:37:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: IBM XT286 In-Reply-To: from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Sep 30, 98 10:50:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2183 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981001/bb2a39ef/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 1 12:44:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Can anyone identify this vax for sale on Ebay? In-Reply-To: <199810011701.NAA03192@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Oct 1, 98 12:58:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 881 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981001/b3e24437/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 1 12:28:23 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: ESDI Cabling In-Reply-To: <199810010124.AA26688@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Sep 30, 98 09:24:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 556 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981001/15c8f92f/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 1 14:55:34 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Can anyone identify this vax for sale on Ebay? In-Reply-To: <199810011332.AA12266@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > A possibly incomplete list of DEC systems and what the cpu was used... > more or less. These are all "chip" based so it leaves out the PDP-1 > through 15 series machines. > > VAXmate Intel 80286 oriented as diskless PC workstation for vaxen. I just picked one of these up with the base station that houses a Seagate ST-251 40 meg hard drive with DOS 6.20 installed! Wacky. It also has a 5.25" floppy drive vertically oriented next to the CRT. Its a very nice 286 machine, but what a pitiful computer considering it came from DEC. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From Marty at itgonline.com Thu Oct 1 15:28:58 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: ESDI Cabling Message-ID: <1998Oct01.162651.1767.143656@smtp.itgonline.com> The 34-pin control cable for ST-506 interfaces can either have a twist or be straight through where you need to alter the HDD drive selects accordingly. The 34-pin control cable used on ST-506 interfaces doesn't care whether it lives in a PC PC/XT or PC/AT environment. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: ESDI Cabling Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/1/98 3:55 PM > The only thing in PCs I know of that use a twist cable is Floppies. The AT MFM disk control cable (for ST506-like hard disks) certainly has a twist in it. This twist swaps over 2 of the drive select lines between the 2 drives, so they can both be set to the same drive number. I will have to get the manual if you want the exact details. I think the XT control cable does as well. I have an XT somewhere with 2 ST412 drives (in the 5161 expanasion box) but I'd have to dig it out to check if the cable has the twist. > > Allison > > -tony ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct01.155547.1767.67008; Thu, 01 Oct 1998 15:55:47 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id MAA19121; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 12:51:23 -0700 Received: from mxu3.u.washington.edu (mxu3.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.7]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA30654 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 12:49:00 -0700 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by mxu3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA26817 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 12:48:59 -0700 Received: from [158.152.97.199] (helo=p850ug1) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.03 #1) id 0zOoif-0004Wt-00 for classiccmp@u.washington.edu; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 19:48:58 +0000 Received: by p850ug1 id (Debian /\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.33); Thu, 1 Oct 98 18:28 BST Message-Id: Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 18:28:23 +0100 (BST) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: ESDI Cabling In-Reply-To: <199810010124.AA26688@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Sep 30, 98 09:24:50 pm Content-Type: text X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Oct 1 16:46:51 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Apple <> Orange 386? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981001164651.2fbf5d9a@intellistar.net> I picked up an Apple Macintosh IIci today. It has a board in it marked "Orange 386". It was made by Orange Micro has a 386 CPU and slots for SIMM memory boards. Is anyone familar with this? I don't have an Apple monitor so I can't power it up and test it. Joe From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Oct 1 16:18:43 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Apple <> Orange 386? Message-ID: It's a PC compatibility card, similar to those Apple used to sell. Orange Micro is still around, currently selling Pentium cards. http://www.orangemicro.com -----Original Message----- From: Joe [mailto:rigdonj@intellistar.net] Sent: Thursday, October 01, 1998 9:47 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Apple <> Orange 386? I picked up an Apple Macintosh IIci today. It has a board in it marked "Orange 386". It was made by Orange Micro has a 386 CPU and slots for SIMM memory boards. Is anyone familar with this? I don't have an Apple monitor so I can't power it up and test it. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 1 15:08:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: DEC Vaxstation Mice In-Reply-To: <199810011830.AA18704@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 1, 98 02:30:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981001/4b7f1647/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Thu Oct 1 16:49:52 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Premium SoftCard //e References: Message-ID: <3613F900.F1FC2EB@rain.org> I'm starting to take a look through the Apple //e computers and I found a "Microsoft Premium Softcard //e" inside one of them. Anyone know what this is, is software required to use it? Thanks. From yowza at yowza.com Thu Oct 1 16:56:00 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: PDP-9 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just talked to somebody that has a PDP-9 that has been in continuous use (24 hours/day) since 1967! They're finally thinking about phasing it out. So, I was thinking.... How big is a PDP-9? -- Doug From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 1 17:05:17 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Can anyone identify this vax for sale on Ebay? Message-ID: <199810012205.AA29602@world.std.com> < I just picked one of these up with the base station that houses a Seagat < ST-251 40 meg hard drive with DOS 6.20 installed! Wacky. It also has < 5.25" floppy drive vertically oriented next to the CRT. The disk box was an afterthought. It was mostly for modems and other add ons. Their big feature was a LANCE chip for eithernet running PCSA (later called pathworks) networking to vaxen via decnet/lat protocals. < Its a very nice 286 machine, but what a pitiful computer considering it < came from DEC. Since it's primarly aim was a diskless dos workstation off of vaxen and dec was still trying to sort out if they were committed to PCs at all it was a rather interesting machine. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 1 16:30:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: ESDI Cabling In-Reply-To: <1998Oct01.162651.1767.143656@smtp.itgonline.com> from "Marty" at Oct 1, 98 04:28:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 972 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981001/a69e82e5/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 1 17:20:04 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: VCF mentioned in UK newspaper In-Reply-To: <35EB101F.C4F7A7CE@joules.enterprise-plc.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Pete Joules wrote: > There was write up of the VCF in todays Guardian, it included a picture > of an Altair and a wooden Apple, along with an account of Ray Holt's > talk. Oh good! Is there a pointer to this article on the web? If not, could you PLEASE transcribe it for me and e-mail it along? (PS. the wooden Apple would probably be the Apple 1). > It also says the it was organised by "...Sam Ismail, a goateed, > hyperactive young programmer who started his own collection of 200 > machines 11 years ago...". Is this a fair description Sam? ;-) Pretty much. Except it understates the total number of machines in my collection :) > PS Congratulations, Sam, on what seems to have been a very sucessful > event. Thanks! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Thu Oct 1 17:35:07 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Premium SoftCard //e In-Reply-To: <3613F900.F1FC2EB@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Oct 1, 98 02:49:52 pm Message-ID: <199810012235.PAA00294@saul1.u.washington.edu> > I'm starting to take a look through the Apple //e computers and I found a > "Microsoft Premium Softcard //e" inside one of them. Anyone know what this > is, is software required to use it? Thanks. Microsoft made a few models of the SoftCard. They allow you to run CP/M on the Apple. You do need software -- specifically the version of CP/M that is tailored to work with the card and the Apple's disk format. The people on comp.os.cpm might be able to find software for you. -- Derek From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Oct 1 17:35:07 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Windows 1.0 Message-ID: Ah, I got the answer... there was a 1.01 with a limited release in the US only, I still have yet to get confirmation over whether there was a retail store package or whether it was bundled only. 1.03 was indeed the first multinational release about 9 months later. I'm sure there wasn't a 1.00, although 1.01 packages may have carried "1.0" markings. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Walker [mailto:lwalker@mail.interlog.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 1998 9:01 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: als for it On 30 Sep 98 at 9:19, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > To the best of my knowledge, there was no Windows 1.00. As I recall, we > released 1.03 as the first version. > > 1.03 was available only on 360K 5 1/4" and had no VGA support. 1.04 was the > same as 1.03 except it was available only on 720K 3 1/2" and supported the > PS/2 _exclusively_. > > Kai > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Ismail [mailto:dastar@ncal.verio.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 8:16 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Windows 1.0? > > Someone posted recently that they have the originals (or copies) of > Windows 1.0? Could you please get in touch with me? > > Sam Alternate e-mail: Sorry Kai, I usually tend to take your MS statements as gospel but in this case I've just been looking at the flash page and desktop of Windows 1.01 copyrighted 1984 and the files are dated 11-15-85. Unless this was a pirated version smuggled out of MS or an elaborate put-on it must be the first issue. It has a somewhat-Norton Commander style desktop but has most of the utilities of the later version - notepad, write, calendar ,etc. and a pif-editor and win.ini. It comes on 5 360k disks with a set-up program that builds a small Win.com and an much larger overlay binarie. As you mention it doesn't support VGA and the readme file has a lot of references to problems with AboveBoard (the Intel mem-expansion card). I've had it for a short while and just now installed it on an 8580 PS2 running DRDOS. While I can get the desktop the utilities hang with the familiar hourglass. I just tried it on my 5150 which has an Inboard card and uses the A20 handler but only 1meg memory and also heavily configured and with Dos 5. It crashed leaving me at the prompt. Using my favorite shell CMFiler got me to a blank screen before crashing . Likely memory related. I'm going to try it on one of my 286s' using an earlier dos and with one of 1.01's memory handlers emm.at or emm.xt (dated 7-30-85) in autoexec. I have of course no manual. I do run on, sorry. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From william at ans.net Thu Oct 1 17:42:24 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: PDP-9 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I just talked to somebody that has a PDP-9 that has been in continuous use > (24 hours/day) since 1967! They're finally thinking about phasing it out. > So, I was thinking.... How big is a PDP-9? Big enough to fit in my van. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu Oct 1 17:45:53 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Premium SoftCard //e In-Reply-To: <3613F900.F1FC2EB@rain.org> Message-ID: <199810012145.QAA01663@trailingedge.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 785 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981001/da0c77f0/attachment.bin From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Oct 1 17:50:09 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sethm@loomcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: PDP-9 In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Oct 1, 98 04:56:00 pm Message-ID: <199810012250.PAA02638@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 422 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981001/df53d826/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at freegate.com Thu Oct 1 18:07:00 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: PDP-9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199810012300.QAA02411@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Better get a small truck... http://pc.dec-j.co.jp/support/may/dec_jpg/part_1/image/pdp9.jpg At 04:56 PM 10/1/98 -0500, you wrote: >I just talked to somebody that has a PDP-9 that has been in continuous use >(24 hours/day) since 1967! They're finally thinking about phasing it out. >So, I was thinking.... How big is a PDP-9? > >-- Doug > From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Oct 1 18:36:26 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Universal drive Message-ID: <19981001233626.2988.qmail@hotmail.com> Is there a device that would allow _any_ disk, independently of format, including Apple ][ disks, to be read? I know Teledisk can do this for all conventional formats, but not Apple disks. It would be nice to connect one of these and read the disk image into a file. The main reason why I ask is for rescuing messed up floppies... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Thu Oct 1 18:38:12 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Windows 1.0? Message-ID: <003e01bded94$8e6ea300$d73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> >Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >> To the best of my knowledge, there was no Windows 1.00. As I recall, we >> released 1.03 as the first version. > >MSKB article ID Q32905 "Windows Version History" makes reference to >Version 1.01 dated 11/85 (it is the first version listed), followed by >1.03 dated 8/86. > That fits. I have a copy of 1.02, the "International Version" with files dated 1/86. Hans Olminkhof From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 1 18:55:09 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <19981001233626.2988.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Is there a device that would allow _any_ disk, independently of > format, including Apple ][ disks, to be read? I know Teledisk can do > this for all conventional formats, but not Apple disks. It would be > nice to connect one of these and read the disk image into a file. > The main reason why I ask is for rescuing messed up floppies... Not quite. PCs use a disk controller chip based on an NEC 765 design that can not read ANYTHING other than MFM (some can also do FM), with IBM 3740 style sector headers. That comprises about 2000 different disk formats that have been used, but explicitly EXCLUDES GCR of Apple ][ and Mac 400K & 800K; hard sectored; and a few hundred others. The Western Digital disk controller chips (179X, before they changed over to NEC style) could do a reasonably real track read of anything MFM regardless of sector header structure. They were used in TRS-80s and a LOT of machines OTHER THAN PC. The Amiga hardware can almost do what you want, or try the old Central Point Option board. For diskette recovery, the Option Board is probably about the best available possibility, but it's discontinud, so you'll need to do some looking. And it did NOT work reliably on high density, FM, nor many GCRs. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cmcmanis at freegate.com Thu Oct 1 19:04:47 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <19981001233626.2988.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199810012358.QAA07465@mxu2.u.washington.edu> At 04:36 PM 10/1/98 -0700, you wrote: >Is there a device that would allow _any_ disk, independently of >format, including Apple ][ disks, to be read? Some (most?) Trace Disk duplicators can do the same, they can even modulate the write current to achieve the coveted "weak bits" effect. Alternatively you could tap a buffer amplifier into the read/write head loop just before the clock separator and feed that into flash ADC for capture. The signal is about 500Khz max so you can oversample at 4x into PC static cache ram and capture complete track signatures. --Chuck From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Oct 1 19:01:42 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Universal drive Message-ID: Nothing universal. Let me break this down by type: CP/M and Related Formats: Teledisk will read most CP/M and related formats on double-density (MFM) diskettes. Standard IBM PC floppy controllers are physically unable to read single-density (FM) formats (for some reason, even though the Western Digital chip they used supported FM, they never connected the pin. The Teledisk folks have some instructions to modify old IBM controllers). Teledisk can also read CP/M and related formats on FM diskettes with an appropriate floppy controller (e.g. CompatiCard, or modified IBM controller). Some CompatiCard versions will also allow connection of 8" drives to an IBM compatible. If you find a CompatiCard for sale, buy it. Non-CP/M Related, Non-Apple Formats: Teledisk does not read other FM formats that are not similar to CP/M (e.g. TRS-80 Model 1). I'm not aware of a solution to read/write formats such as TRS-80 Mod1, Coleco, Atari 8-bit, etc. Later TRS-80's like the Model 4/4P can read TRSDOS diskettes and copy the files to CP/M format which could then be read with Teledisk. Apple II: There is no physical way to read an Apple II diskette on IBM floppy drives. There are 3 solutions: 1) Use a Trackstar 128 card in an IBM compatible; 2) use a //e emulation card in a Macintosh LC series, then copy to PC format if necessary; 3) Copy the 5.25" Apple DOS files to 3.5" ProDOS format on a //e equipped with 3.5" and 5.25" drives, then use an old Apple File Exchange on a Mac to read the ProDOS disk. Macintosh: All Macs with SuperDrive/FDHD drives can read/write PC format. To read Mac dual-density format on the PC, you can either copy the files to PC format on a newer Macintosh (be SURE to keep the disk write protected or the newer Mac will automatically screw it up so it won't read properly on your old Mac!) or you can use a Central Point Copy II Option Board Deluxe on an IBM compatible. Others: Atari ST uses DOS format in the first place. Amiga can be read on the PC by Amiga emulators. C64, I have no idea, but I know at least you could use a C128 to copy files to CP/M format. NOTE that if you don't want to actually access FILES, but just want to COPY the disk, all you need is a Central Point Option Board in an IBM compatible. I use my "Compaq Computer" (a.k.a. Portable I) with an Option Board to copy any SD/DD format, including Apple II. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin [mailto:maxeskin@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 01, 1998 4:36 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Universal drive Is there a device that would allow _any_ disk, independently of format, including Apple ][ disks, to be read? I know Teledisk can do this for all conventional formats, but not Apple disks. It would be nice to connect one of these and read the disk image into a file. The main reason why I ask is for rescuing messed up floppies... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Thu Oct 1 19:02:16 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Can anyone identify this vax for sale on Ebay? In-Reply-To: References: <199810011332.AA12266@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810020002.KAA15761@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 12:55 PM 01-10-98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: >Its a very nice 286 machine, but what a pitiful computer considering it >came from DEC. Of course you have to realize that this is an NC (in the modern sense). A VAXmate worked really well in a network environment with a VAX at the far end running Pathworks. I remember setting one up in 1987 and being impressed with what you could achieve. It was really nice being able to store PC data on our VAX which we backed up properly! Of course, like DECs other NC (the Multia) they were ahead of the market and couldn't sell them to save themselves :-( Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Oct 1 07:02:31 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Great Find Message-ID: <000301bded33$5e6479c0$9dafadce@5x86jk> On Wednesday I got a IBM AS/400 model 9404 for free, it is just the CPU unit with the front cover missing. It had two keys with it along a 5 1/4 FD and a tape backup unit installed. I've been trying to get some information about from IBM's web site but not much luck. Hope to fire it up soon. John From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Oct 1 19:08:34 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <19981001233626.2988.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Oct 1, 98 04:36:26 pm Message-ID: <199810020008.RAA15342@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1122 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981001/62cb72fb/attachment.ksh From paulk at microsoft.com Thu Oct 1 19:04:03 1998 From: paulk at microsoft.com (Paul Kearns) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Universal drive Message-ID: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B507DC92FB@RED-MSG-45> > Is there a device that would allow _any_ disk, independently of > format, including Apple ][ disks, to be read? > You can look at http://members.tripod.com/~apd2/catweasl.htm for an ISA card that'll (allegedly) read several MFM and GCR formats, including Commodore, Amiga, FAT, Atari, Macintosh, and Apple //. I haven't ever used one, so I can't comment on its reliability, but it might be worth investigating. Paul Kearns paulk@microsoft.com From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Oct 1 19:09:46 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Caldera OpenLinux User) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Apple <> Orange 386? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981001164651.2fbf5d9a@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Oct 1, 98 04:46:51 pm Message-ID: <199810020009.SAA21672@calico.litterbox.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 335 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981001/61da89ee/attachment.ksh From oajones at bright.net Thu Oct 1 19:07:31 1998 From: oajones at bright.net (oajones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Xerox 16/8 References: <36116312.1CC8B9D6@labwest.northatlantic.nf.ca> Message-ID: <36141943.1AB5@bright.net> Jamie Bixby wrote: > > I have recently came into position of an old Xerox computer that I > really do not know much about and was wondering if anyone out there > would be able to send me via e-mail any info that they may have on it. > The computer works and all but all that comes up is something about > tables and something about invalid drives. If anyone out there has any > info on this computer I would greatly appreciate it. Hi Jamie, Direct your question to comp.sys.cpm and someone there should be able to answer any of your questions. --Alan -- Computing since: 1982, VIC-20, CoCo, PC, CP/M Military Computers: COMTRAN 10, Nida 250 Amateur Radio since: 1971, WN8JEF, KA6EXR, N8BGR, AA4ZI BASIC, dBASE, Assembly, C++ http://www.bright.net/~oajones From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 1 19:38:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <19981001233626.2988.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Oct 1, 98 04:36:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 834 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981002/3a3351e7/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 1 20:55:28 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Apple <> Orange 386? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981001164651.2fbf5d9a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: >I picked up an Apple Macintosh IIci today. It has a board in it marked >"Orange 386". It was made by Orange Micro has a 386 CPU and slots for SIMM >memory boards. Is anyone familar with this? I don't have an Apple >monitor so I can't power it up and test it. > > Joe Hopefully you've got a Hard drive with the software on it. As you might have guessed you've got a "kinda cool" system there. It will run both Macintosh and PC software native. To the best of my knowledge "Orange Micro" is still around. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 1 20:08:27 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Premium SoftCard //e In-Reply-To: <199810012145.QAA01663@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, David Williams wrote: > I picked up one of those in an //e the other day. From what I see it > acts as an 80-column/64K ram card for the //e with the bonus of > having a Z-80 Softcard built in too. The only software you need for > it that I know of is a version of CP/M if you want to run it, otherwise > it acts like standard apple hardware. I'm looking for a copy of > CP/M for this board if anyone knows where I can find one. I've got the original system disks for this card and given enough time could probably make a copy and send them to you. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Oct 1 20:02:16 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: Cameron Kaiser "Re: Universal drive" (Oct 1, 17:08) References: <199810020008.RAA15342@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <9810020202.ZM28944@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 1, 17:08, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Subject: Re: Universal drive > :: > ::Is there a device that would allow _any_ disk, independently of > ::format, including Apple ][ disks, to be read? I know Teledisk can do > ::this for all conventional formats, but not Apple disks. It would be > ::nice to connect one of these and read the disk image into a file. > ::The main reason why I ask is for rescuing messed up floppies... > :: > > The closest thing to this I can think of would be a Catweasel controller, > but they are not for the faint of heart or ignorant of disk format. They > are also rather difficult to find. Try searching on AltaVista; you may > luck out and find one for sale. At least in the Commodore world, we've been > successful at reading 64 disks on a PC with a Catweasal-enhanced drive. I know someone at Edinburgh who was trying to persuade a Catweasel controller to read/write unusual formats, but last I heard he was making heavy weather of it. Here's the Catweasel URL: http://members.tripod.com/~apd2/catweasl.htm -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jason at xio.com Thu Oct 1 20:10:01 1998 From: jason at xio.com (Jason Simpson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981001181001.0076743c@citadel.slumberland.seattle.wa.us> At 05:01 PM 10/1/98 -0700, you wrote: >NOTE that if you don't want to actually access FILES, but just want to COPY >the disk, all you need is a Central Point Option Board in an IBM compatible. >I use my "Compaq Computer" (a.k.a. Portable I) with an Option Board to copy >any SD/DD format, including Apple II. I've got one of these Central Point Copy II PC "Option Board"s in the basement. Does anybody know if it would be possible for a computer equipped with an Option Board to read and write disk images (even of raw GCR data, say) or does the Option Board require two drives and simply pass incoming data directly to the output drive without the computer seeing the data at all? -jrs _______________________________________________________________________ \/|/\ | Jason Simpson | http://www.xio.com/jason/ /\|\/ | jason@xio.com | Wanted: '87-90 Volkswagen Fox 2 Door Wagon From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 1 20:25:08 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Universal drive Part 1: The DRIVE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [The fundamental components would be the disk drive (either stock or modified), the controller (possibly heavily modified), and the software] Hard versus soft sectoring, FM / MFM (single/double denbsity) / GCR are primarily an issue of controller, although drive hardware can play a part. For example, Apple ][ used different circuitry on the drive (that was otherwise basically a Shugart SA400); BUT, Apple ][ diskettes CAN be read with most "normal" 360K drives using special controllers. Directory structures (CP/M, TRS-DOS, etc.) are almost entirely a software issue. Although hardware issues must be resolved first, and controller can be an issue [how many remember the Data Address Mark issues with double density on TRS-DOS and derivatives?] The common sizes of disk drives are: 8" 5.25" 3.5" There have also been a few others, including: 3" (Amstrad, Canon, earliest Gavilans,Amdek add-on for Aplle and Coco) 3.25" (Dysan bet the copany and lost. Seequa Chameleon 325) 3.9" (IBM. never produced??) 2.5" (Zenith?) On 5.25" drives, there were a few different intertrack spacings, most common being 48TPI (tracks per inch) 96TPI (""Quad"" density, and 1.2M "high" density) There was also a short-lived 100TPI (Micropolis series 2 and Tandon TM100-4M (M designating 100TPI v the more common 96TPI of 100-4)) Anybody remember the AMLYN drive? capable of variable track spacing, and had a crude jukebox for swapping 600 Oerstedt (1.2M) diskettes. 3.5" drives are normally 135 TPI, although there were some early 40 track (Epson Geneva) at 67.5 TPI 8" drives normally ran at 360 RPM. 5.25" drives normally ran at 300 RPM, except for 1.2M, which thought that it was an 8". That doesn't REALLY matter, since it can be compensated for by changing the data transfer rate at the controller. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From wpe101 at banet.net Thu Oct 1 20:26:53 1998 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: New to the list References: <85256690.003DD1A2.00@fsunotes2.ferris.edu> Message-ID: <36142BDD.7C1BB673@banet.net> Hello Aaron, welcome to the list.. I dealt with a PC jr a few years ago, and iirr, it didn't boot itself, you had to insert a dos (gawd help me what version) floppy to get it to boot. No clue as to whether that's the problem, but I'd suggest you try it. No guarantees, but, if you do need one, I've got a steel box at work with a bunch of old floppies in it, and I'll be happy to check it, and see if I still have a boot floppy in there.. Oh, also, fwiw, the PC jr I played with, the floppy drive was kind of "iffy" as to functioning properly, hopefully a characteristic local to the machine I was dealing with.. Will Aaron_J_Hayden@student.ferris.edu wrote: > > Howdy all, > > My name is Aaron Hayden and I have recently joined the list. Currently in > my collection I have a C64, a PC Jr., a Hero robot and my trusty 486-66. I > enjoy using the older systems and in some cases I think they're a bit more > user friendly (at least for me). I was looking for some info on my PC Jr. > and found the list. I'm sure I'll gain some knowledge and hopefully give > some too. Which brings me to my first question... I was just recently > given the PC Jr. however it seems it doesn't work. I have only plugged it > in a couple times but haven't looked at it much more than that. I also do > not have any documentation on it so I'm flying blind. When I turn it on the > screen turns all grey. Anybody have this problem before? It has been > sitting for a while but worked fine until it was boxed up. It came w/ two > power supplies so maybe their both bad? Any ideas? thanks in advance. > > Aaron From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 1 20:32:20 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981001181001.0076743c@citadel.slumberland.seattle.wa.us> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Jason Simpson wrote: > I've got one of these Central Point Copy II PC "Option Board"s in the > basement. > Does anybody know if it would be possible for a computer equipped with an > Option Board to read and write disk images (even of raw GCR data, say) or > does the Option Board require two drives and simply pass incoming data > directly to the output drive without the computer seeing the data at all? The HARDWARE could do it. The option board came with 2 programs: TC to copy disks TE to display data and clock from disk tracks. The later "deluxe" model added software for reading/writing Mac 400K/800K disk formats. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Thu Oct 1 20:39:56 1998 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:00 2005 Subject: VCF mentioned in UK newspaper Message-ID: <199810020139.VAA23803@golden.net> Nice going ace! Here's an idea for 3.0...get somebody close by with a working, large mini configuration or small mainframe and have them spend all day assemblying and wiring and booting it and demonstrating it the next day. A good full install should day all at least. >On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Pete Joules wrote: > >> There was write up of the VCF in todays Guardian, it included a picture >> of an Altair and a wooden Apple, along with an account of Ray Holt's >> talk. > >Oh good! Is there a pointer to this article on the web? If not, could >you PLEASE transcribe it for me and e-mail it along? (PS. the wooden >Apple would probably be the Apple 1). > >> It also says the it was organised by "...Sam Ismail, a goateed, >> hyperactive young programmer who started his own collection of 200 >> machines 11 years ago...". Is this a fair description Sam? ;-) > >Pretty much. Except it understates the total number of machines in my >collection :) > >> PS Congratulations, Sam, on what seems to have been a very sucessful >> event. > >Thanks! > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From william at ans.net Thu Oct 1 20:40:43 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Great Find In-Reply-To: <000301bded33$5e6479c0$9dafadce@5x86jk> Message-ID: > On Wednesday I got a IBM AS/400 model 9404 for free, it is just the CPU unit > with the front cover missing. It had two keys with it along a 5 1/4 FD and a > tape backup unit installed. I've been trying to get some information about > from IBM's web site but not much luck. Hope to fire it up soon. John DON'T LOOSE THE KEYS!!! In fact, you may want to take one of them and secure it to the chassis. IBM tends to make their keys unique (or close to unique). For a front panel, keep looking for one in the junkyards. They probably would be happy if you took it away! William Donzelli william@ans.net From roblwill at usaor.net Thu Oct 1 20:36:57 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: New to the list Message-ID: <199810020146.VAA22506@gate.usaor.net> I believe the DOS version was PC-DOS 2.11. From reading previous posts on this list, and other places, the floppy drive in the PCjr was fairly flimsy, so if may be a "standard" problem. -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Will Emerson > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: New to the list > Date: Thursday, October 01, 1998 9:26 PM > > Hello Aaron, welcome to the list.. I dealt with a PC jr a few years ago, > and iirr, it didn't boot itself, you had to insert a dos (gawd help me > what version) floppy to get it to boot. No clue as to whether that's the > problem, but I'd suggest you try it. No guarantees, but, if you do need > one, I've got a steel box at work with a bunch of old floppies in it, > and I'll be happy to check it, and see if I still have a boot floppy > in there.. Oh, also, fwiw, the PC jr I played with, the floppy drive > was kind of "iffy" as to functioning properly, hopefully a > characteristic > local to the machine I was dealing with.. > > Will From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 1 20:46:16 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19981002014616.28035.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Hmmm... I don't know of one built commercially, but how about a board > based round an FPGA (for the non-hardware types, basically a configurable > chip that you can make just about any logic circuit out of) linked to an > floppy drive. Oh, and some kind of programmable clock (I don't think > dividing down a master clock with the FPGA would really do it)/PLL thingy > to act as a read clock. Overly complicated, no (hardware) PLL necessary. Just sample the data from the drive at a sufficient multiple of the channel code data rate (8x should be plenty), and do the data separation in software. That way it really is completely independent of the data format. That's the way I designed my closed-caption decoder (5x), and it works quite well. Note that this doesn't deal with all of the weird Apple ][ copy protection schemes (like spiral tracks), but it will deal with some of them. I have a twiggy disks for the Lisa 1 with a bad sector. I've always wondered whether hacking the drive electronics to allow software control over the read amplifier gain and/or data slice threshold would let me recover that sector. Cheers, Eric From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Thu Oct 1 21:05:28 1998 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: FW: 1 Meg uVax memory boards $10 In-Reply-To: <6v10gf$84k$1@tribune.usask.ca> References: <6v10gf$84k$1@tribune.usask.ca> Message-ID: <361b34a7.373333965@smtp.wa.jps.net> If anyone needs a couple of memory boards for their MicroVAX, here's a fellow offering a couple of 1 meggers dirt cheap. -=-=- -=-=- On 1 Oct 1998 22:42:23 GMT, in comp.sys.dec.micro you wrote: >>From: neil@skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson) >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >>Subject: 1 Meg uVax memory boards $10 >>Date: 1 Oct 1998 22:42:23 GMT >>Organization: University of Saskatchewan >>Lines: 13 >>Message-ID: <6v10gf$84k$1@tribune.usask.ca> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: hydrus.usask.ca >>X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] >>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!uunet!in5.uu.net!newsfeed.xcom.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!192.26.210.166!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!tribune.usask.ca!not-for-mail >> >>I have two M7607 memory boards for sale. I believe they are >>1 Meg boards for a microVax. They have a connector near the >>handles for data/control signals; my understanding is that >>they are unusable for a normal PDP11 Qbus system. >> >>Asking $10.00 each or $10.00 for two -- I just want to >>avoid throwing them out, and also want it to be worth my while >>to package them up. Sorry, no documentation available. >> >> >>Neil >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) jps [dot] net Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Oct 1 21:06:44 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: New to the list Message-ID: <871fc6dd.36143534@aol.com> In a message dated 10/1/98 9:33:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wpe101@banet.net writes: > Hello Aaron, welcome to the list.. I dealt with a PC jr a few years ago, > and iirr, it didn't boot itself, you had to insert a dos (gawd help me > what version) floppy to get it to boot. No clue as to whether that's the > problem, but I'd suggest you try it. it's just like a standard pc in that if you have a boot floppy, preferably dos 2.1, it should load. or, if a cart is in one of the two front slots, it should load off of that. the disk drive in it is the same as the slim height floppy drives the portable pc used. david From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Oct 1 21:11:44 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Apple <> Orange 386? Message-ID: Hi Joe; Nice find. Almost any NEC multisync momitor will work. There is a adapter that goes from 9 pin to apple for the older multisync monitors and another 15 pin to Apple for later monitors. I can get them here in Portland, Oregon at Oregon Electronics. You should be able to find a cable house in your neighborhood that has the adapter or a cable that would work. Other monitors like the Sony should work also. Paxton From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Oct 1 21:11:44 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Xerox 16/8 Message-ID: The Xerox 16/8 is a desktop CPM Computer of the mid 1980s vintage. It has both 8 and 16 bit processors in the cabinet. I believe the original computer was based on the UK Big Board design. The 16 bit processor is on a propriatory add on card. It runs CPM-80 & CPM-86. If I remember right it will run an early version of MS-DOS. It has been years since I have run mine. My 2nd computer was a Xerox 820, an earlier model. I was delighted when I got a 16/8. It uses external drives which you may not have gotten. The disks availiable were dual 8" floppys, dual 5" floppys or a 8" Floppy and 8" HD. You could use only one set at a time. Brian of Emerald Microware (business no longer in existance) in Beaverton, Oregon made a data sharer that would alow you to hook up both 5 & 8" drives at the same time. He supported this family of computers for many years. It was a nice machine. There are two styles of keyboards, the original which is bulky and a low profile which uses a different ROM. The basic computer consists of three pieces, the Monitor/CPU, a keyboard and a drive cabinet. I have docs, drives, cpus and parts if you want to communicate with me directly. Paxton Whoagiii@aol.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Oct 1 21:26:54 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive Message-ID: <19981002022654.1926.qmail@hotmail.com> OK, next question. While I look for weird expansion cards, is there any book that I stand a chance at finding which details the DOS flopy format? >> Hmmm... I don't know of one built commercially, but how about a board >> based round an FPGA (for the non-hardware types, basically a configurable >> chip that you can make just about any logic circuit out of) linked to an >> floppy drive. Oh, and some kind of programmable clock (I don't think >> dividing down a master clock with the FPGA would really do it)/PLL thingy >> to act as a read clock. > >Overly complicated, no (hardware) PLL necessary. Just sample the data from >the drive at a sufficient multiple of the channel code data rate (8x should be >plenty), and do the data separation in software. That way it really is >completely independent of the data format. That's the way I designed my >closed-caption decoder (5x), and it works quite well. > >Note that this doesn't deal with all of the weird Apple ][ copy protection >schemes (like spiral tracks), but it will deal with some of them. > >I have a twiggy disks for the Lisa 1 with a bad sector. I've always wondered >whether hacking the drive electronics to allow software control over the >read amplifier gain and/or data slice threshold would let me recover that >sector. > >Cheers, >Eric > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ecloud at goodnet.com Thu Oct 1 21:45:32 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <19981002022654.1926.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Oct 1, 98 07:26:54 pm Message-ID: <199810020245.TAA28809@goodnet.com> > OK, next question. While I look for weird expansion cards, is there > any book that I stand a chance at finding which details the DOS flopy > format? Look for DOSREF??.ZIP. It's a very informative collection of text files. There appears to be a version at http://www.mecheng.asme.org/database/EDU_COMP/MASTER.HTML, but not sure how old; use archie to find others. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * alternative energy * Java * packet radio * knowledge base * emusic * From yowza at yowza.com Thu Oct 1 22:08:49 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: VCF mentioned in UK newspaper In-Reply-To: <199810020139.VAA23803@golden.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Unusual systems wrote: > Here's an idea for 3.0...get somebody close by with a working, large mini > configuration or small mainframe and have them spend all day assemblying and > wiring and booting it and demonstrating it the next day. A good full install > should day all at least. There goes Kevin trying to scare off collectors again! Let's demo both the install and the de-install and simulate a tie getting caught in the line printer, the 600 lb disk drive dropping on toes, a couple of high-voltage mishaps, and the disk-drive-as-fly-wheel effect as the truck drives away and then tips over when it tries to make a turn. :-) -- Doug From mbg at world.std.com Thu Oct 1 22:26:29 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Can anyone identify this vax for sale on Ebay? Message-ID: <199810020326.AA00682@world.std.com> >The Professional 350 uses a PDP11 CPU (F11 or J11 depending on the >machine). It runs P/OS (== cut-down RSX with a menu shell on top) or >Venix. Oh, I think RT11 as well. The PRO-350 used the F11 (Fonz) chip (same as in an 11/23). The PRO-380 used the J11 (Jaws) chip (same as an 11/73). Oh yeah - and RT-11 sure does run on them! We got it working on the PRO back in 1980... You should have seen some of the things we had to do to get it running, though... Some PRO strangeness - it has a 64hz clock... so, for RT-11 to emulate a 60hz clock, it counts 15 clock ticks and throws one away... :-) The PRO-380 doesn't have cache, but if you *turn off* the non-existent cache (using the cache control register), the machine slows down to 11/23 speed! Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Oct 1 22:26:37 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: New to the list Message-ID: <52e88f57.361447ed@aol.com> It would have to be PC-DOS 2.10. Version 2.11 was MS-DOS i think. I have a copy of 2.10 on the shelf with the book. I don't know anything about PC Jrs though, with the exception of a thrift store here in Portland, OR that has a monitor for one. If you are interested in the SW contact me directly. I was actually looking for DOS 1.XX to see if I might have it. I don't but I ran across the book set marked 1.01 for the 3270 PC. I got excited but what was inside was PD-DOS 3.0. Oh well, such is life. I have lots of versions of PC-DOS 3.0 & 3.1, and a couple of MS-DOS 2.11 for other computers that I am interested in unloading. Any interest out there. Paxton Whoagiii@aol.com From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 1 22:31:17 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive Message-ID: <199810020331.AA04247@world.std.com> < > this for all conventional formats, but not Apple disks. It would be < > nice to connect one of these and read the disk image into a file. < > The main reason why I ask is for rescuing messed up floppies... Apple used GCR coding for their drives and there are no commonly available chips that do. In fact the apple does not use the traditional floppy disk controller chips at all. The FDC logic on the Apple is rather simple and the CPU provides the brains as a software FDC. It was part of the idea of using software to replace hardware to make the machine simpler and less expensive. < PCs use a disk controller chip based on an NEC 765 design that can not < read ANYTHING other than MFM (some can also do FM), with IBM 3740 style Excuse me! That is patently incorrect! If you qualified that as *most PC controllers cannot read some formats* that would be true. The 765 and all of the chips based on the 765 core can read FM encoded disks. It's not always possible with PC based designs as some are hardware crippled (sloppy data sep circuits) and most of the PC bios code is marginally brain dead. However the 9266, 37c65 and 92c665 have been seen doing FM. In the mean time my S100 card design and the compupro DISK1A both happly read 8" SSSD (FM) disks and even single density 5.25 media. < The Western Digital disk controller chips (179X, before they changed ove < NEC style) could do a reasonably real track read of anything MFM < regardless of sector header structure. Try the 765 read diagnostic command. Hex 02 (fm) or 42 for MFM. >Xref: world alt.sys.pdp11:5205 >Path: world!blanket.mitre.org!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail >From: "Eric" >Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 >Subject: pdp11/44 free to good home in TX >Date: 2 Oct 1998 02:01:12 GMT >Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here >Lines: 13 >Message-ID: <01bdeda9$0467a840$22a442c6@moonpie.citx.com> >NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.66.164.34 >X-Trace: 907293672 0R4SAZH0CA422C642C usenet54.supernews.com >X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com >X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 11/44 CPU TS11 tape drive (2) RK07 disk units many rk07 packs decwriterII vt100 terminal manuals, service history unit operational at de-installation deinstalled from a school 30 days and it's going to the metal scrapyard, would rather see her have a good home. From yowza at yowza.com Thu Oct 1 23:15:46 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: PDP-9 In-Reply-To: <199810012300.QAA02411@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Chuck McManis wrote: > http://pc.dec-j.co.jp/support/may/dec_jpg/part_1/image/pdp9.jpg For people (like me) who didn't know about the nice collection of old DEC machine pictures available at the DEC Japan site, take a look: http://pc.dec-j.co.jp/support/may/dec_jpg/dec_jpg.htm -- Doug From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Oct 1 22:51:23 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive Message-ID: <19981001.230643.248.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> You know, I've been wanting to get one of these 'CatWeasels' so I could make Commodore disks. I've never met anyone who has purchased one of these. If any one here has, I'd like to hear about it. BTW-- DOes anyone know what a Central Point 'TransCopy 3' board does? It's an ISA floppy interface, but that's about all I know about it. I picked up someplace, and I don't even know if there's software for it . . . . Jeff On Thu, 1 Oct 1998 17:04:03 -0700 Paul Kearns writes: >> Is there a device that would allow _any_ disk, independently of >> format, including Apple ][ disks, to be read? >> >You can look at http://members.tripod.com/~apd2/catweasl.htm for an >ISA card >that'll (allegedly) read several MFM and GCR formats, including >Commodore, >Amiga, FAT, Atari, Macintosh, and Apple //. > >I haven't ever used one, so I can't comment on its reliability, but it >might >be worth investigating. > >Paul Kearns >paulk@microsoft.com > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 1 23:15:46 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <19981002014616.28035.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 2 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > Note that this doesn't deal with all of the weird Apple ][ copy protection > schemes (like spiral tracks), but it will deal with some of them. Theoretically you could simply scan half-tracks and quarter tracks and just look for strong signals (something above a certain threshold). > I have a twiggy disks for the Lisa 1 with a bad sector. I've always wondered > whether hacking the drive electronics to allow software control over the > read amplifier gain and/or data slice threshold would let me recover that > sector. I suppose it depends on what the problem is. I don't know how similar the Twiggy encoding was to the Disk ][ encoding, but on the Apple ][, if I had bad sectors on a disk, one way to attempt a repair would be to try to read the sector over and over with the checksum disabled until the data looked "right" and then writing it back to disk. This works a good percentage of the time, but not always. Sometimes the disk is physically damaged, and any bytes after the damaged portion of the sector get skewed and will never translate correctly. I know there's some way to correct this but I never sat down to analyze the problem and come up with a solution. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 2 00:27:37 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Fwd: PCjr's Available in Utah Message-ID: If interested reply to Joseph Kimball instead of me. Zane >Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 10:40:14 -0600 >From: "Joseph Kimball" >To: healyzh@ix.netcom.com >Subject: Re: classic computers > >I am in Utah. >I actually have two PCjr monitors, three PCjrs with 128k, and one sidecar >with 512k, and one sidecar with a parallel port, and one sidecar with a >voice synthesizer, and one external floppy drive. >The floppies don't work properly, and will only occaisionally boot to DOS. >- Joseph > >- Joseph Kimball >IHC Health Plans >Service Desk > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 2 00:10:39 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <199810020331.AA04247@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > Apple used GCR coding for their drives and there are no commonly > available chips that do. In fact the apple does not use the traditional > floppy disk controller chips at all. The FDC logic on the Apple is > rather simple and the CPU provides the brains as a software FDC. > It was part of the idea of using software to replace hardware to make > the machine simpler and less expensive. And more hackable. Imagine being able to create your own disk formats! Clever developers did this. Probably the most interesting was the 18-sector DOS that Broderbund used on some of its later Apple ][ games. This served two purposes: 1) it allowed more storage space for programs on a single disk (normal Apple DOS only had 16 sectors) and 2) it foiled software pirates as you now had to figure out ways to cram 630 sectors worth of data onto a 560 sector normally formatted disk so it could be copied with a regular disk copy program (I solved the problem for myself my writing an 18-sector disk copier using the RWTS [DOS] of the game). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 2 01:40:02 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: I think I fried a PDP-11 Message-ID: OK, I had the PDP-11/23+ board in place, and the system loaded up. I was testing out the memory boards I've got by swapping them in. It didn't seem to like a pair of clearpoint memory boards I've got, and then I put in the M8637-EC board, and NOTHING works. It won't even come up with the info on the /23+ ROM. I've a very bad feeling about having put ECC RAM in it. I went so far as to pull out all the boards, nothing. I swapped the /23+ with a /73 and still nothing! What on earth did I do? The diagnostic LEDs on the /23+ are D1, D2, and D4 unfortunatly the manual I've got on the board doesn't seem to explain what the LEDs mean. It's as if I managed to fry the backplane, but that really doesn't make sense. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 2 01:47:47 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Fried PDP-11 -> Panic Mode Off Message-ID: OK, it just booted. The only difference was I turned the VT420 off, and the BA123 had been sitting powered off while I wrote my panic message. I decided to give it one more try before crashing for the night in dispare. I'm totally confused. Either it needed to sit for a few minutes, or the terminal needed power cycled. Or maybe it was waiting for me to panic and act foolish :^) Argh! Ideas? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 2 01:01:17 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: DOS Floppy format (Was: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <19981002022654.1926.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > OK, next question. While I look for weird expansion cards, is there > any book that I stand a chance at finding which details the DOS flopy > format? Are you looking for the DIRectory structures, track layout (sector headers and the like), or explanation of MFM? ADMIN Q: Should those items get posted here, or taken private? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 2 01:29:29 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <199810020331.AA04247@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > < PCs use a disk controller chip based on an NEC 765 design that can not > < read ANYTHING other than MFM (some can also do FM), with IBM 3740 style > Excuse me! That is patently incorrect! If you qualified that as *most > PC controllers cannot read some formats* that would be true. We appear to differ only on the definition of "PC". The PC disk controller, AS IMPLEMENTED BY IBM, did NOT provide access to all of the capabilities of the 765. In particular, FM can NOT be done with that board unless you make a few modifications, or replace it with any of the better designed after-market boards. > The 765 and all of the chips based on the 765 core can read FM encoded > disks. It's not always possible with PC based designs as some are > hardware crippled (sloppy data sep circuits) and most of the PC bios code > is marginally brain dead. > However the 9266, 37c65 and 92c665 have been seen doing FM. With the 37C65 and the like, the switch between MFM and FM can be done entirely in software, not requiring the extra hardware gate needed for the original 765 as used by IBM. Thus, any of the FDC boards using those chips are generally a better choice than the IBM ones. And some, such as the MicroSolutions Compaticard were specifically marketed for their versatility. Almost any of the controllers with 1.2M capability can handle 8" MFM (for obvious reasons). Most of those with 37C65 or the like, or modified to permit FM switching can also do 8" FM. > In the mean time my S100 card design and the compupro DISK1A both happly > read 8" SSSD (FM) disks and even single density 5.25 media. An excellent choice for the task. > Try the 765 read diagnostic command. Hex 02 (fm) or 42 for MFM. Very useful. But I'd STILL rather have a real MFM (and FM) raw track read. > The TRS80 used the 1771 that was FM only. The TRS-80 model I did indeed use the 1771 (FM). Data separation was poorly done, and there were after market boards to patch it. The Percom Doubler for the model 1 used either the 1791 or 1793 (I forget which). So did the Lobo expansion interface, and so did the TRS-80 model 3 and 4. But Radio Shack made some WEIRD design decisions regarding use of Data Address Marks. > the WD 177x or WD179x still cannot read an apple disk. Absolutely correct. But they CAN read some MFM formats that do NOT have IBM style sector headers, unlike the 765 series. There were several add-on boards for PCs for dealing with Apple ][ disks, including the Apple Turnover and Matchpoint. They installed between the existing FDC and the drives, similar to the Option Board. Reliability was less than ideal, and some drives worked better than others. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From yowza at yowza.com Fri Oct 2 02:17:51 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: DOS Floppy format (Was: Universal drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > ADMIN Q: Should those items get posted here, or taken private? The admin is asleep, so anything goes (thus the relatively high noise level here). If you want to stick to the spirit of list creation, here's an old FAQ: http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/faq.txt IMHO, anything that you'd like to have indexed and archived for posterity should be sent to the list, and everything else should be private. DOS directory structure, etc., is good stuff for the archive, even though the original querier could have found the information easily from a net search (or an MSDN subscription). -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 2 02:19:23 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: DOS Floppy format (Was: Universal drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Are you looking for the DIRectory structures, track layout (sector > headers and the like), or explanation of MFM? > > ADMIN Q: Should those items get posted here, or taken private? Post them here. We can all learn from this, and your message will be archived so that people in the future can benefit from your sharing of knowledge as well. BTW, just who is archiving this list? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From yowza at yowza.com Fri Oct 2 02:28:49 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: DOS Floppy format (Was: Universal drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > BTW, just who is archiving this list? Kevan, that's who: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/mlists/classiccmp/ -- Doug From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 2 03:07:10 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Great Find In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:40:43 -0400 References: Message-ID: <19981002080710.29442.qmail@brouhaha.com> > DON'T LOOSE THE KEYS!!! Yes, and don't lose them either!!! :-) From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 2 03:17:13 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:15:46 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981002081713.29477.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Note that this doesn't deal with all of the weird Apple ][ copy protection > schemes (like spiral tracks), but it will deal with some of them. Sam Ismail wrote: > Theoretically you could simply scan half-tracks and quarter tracks and > just look for strong signals (something above a certain threshold). I'm not sure that would work for the protection schemes that actually wrote the sectors while the stepper was in motion. However, fortunately that technique wasn't very common since the mechanical characteristics of the stepper et al tended to vary somewhat from drive to drive. The other copy protection problem that simple attempts at raw copying won't solve is where the software expects arbitrary features of arbitrary tracks to be time-synchronized. It's easy to build hardware that synchronizes the index pulse (which the Apple doesn't even use), but that's not actually sufficient. I wrote: > I have a twiggy disks for the Lisa 1 with a bad sector. I've always wondered > whether hacking the drive electronics to allow software control over the > read amplifier gain and/or data slice threshold would let me recover that > sector. Sam wrote: > I suppose it depends on what the problem is. I don't know how similar the > Twiggy encoding was to the Disk ][ encoding, Almost exactly the same. Every floppy Apple did through the 800K uses the same technique. > but on the Apple ][, if I had > bad sectors on a disk, one way to attempt a repair would be to try to read > the sector over and over with the checksum disabled until the data looked > "right" and then writing it back to disk. This works a good percentage of > the time, but not always. Sometimes the disk is physically damaged, and > any bytes after the damaged portion of the sector get skewed and will > never translate correctly. I know there's some way to correct this but I > never sat down to analyze the problem and come up with a solution. That's exactly the problem I have and what I am speculating that tweaking the gain might help with. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 2 05:04:16 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <19981002081713.29477.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 2 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > I'm not sure that would work for the protection schemes that actually > wrote the sectors while the stepper was in motion. However, fortunately > that technique wasn't very common since the mechanical characteristics > of the stepper et al tended to vary somewhat from drive to drive. Ah! I always assumed "spiral tracks" were simply quarter tracks written every step of the stepper arm, and not while the stepper arm was moving. In fact, I don't know how you could write bytes to the disk while the arm was moving since the step had to be controlled by the program. Its been a while since I messed with that level of detail on the disk drive but was there any time to actually write bytes while the arm was being stepped? I thought you simply poked the right locations and the head moved instantly to the next step, no waiting required? Come to think of it, I believe there was some pausing involved. > The other copy protection problem that simple attempts at raw copying won't > solve is where the software expects arbitrary features of arbitrary tracks > to be time-synchronized. It's easy to build hardware that synchronizes > the index pulse (which the Apple doesn't even use), but that's not actually > sufficient. Yep, synchronized tracks. Wizardry used this technique and it was one of the most impossible disks to copy. I remember only ever being able to make one bit-copy of it that worked. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From ccm at sentex.net Fri Oct 2 06:44:38 1998 From: ccm at sentex.net (COMMPUTERSEUM/Kevin Stumpf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Ties caught in printers. Message-ID: <199810021144.HAA07169@granite.sentex.net> Dah. What could be more fun eh. But seriously folks, I have too many email accounts and I consistently bore this august group with my personal replies. Please excuse me once again. And Dougie, you better be kidding... IBM did similar thing at a graphics conference in the early 1980s. Over a week they installed a 3090 on the show floor. I hear there is a time-lapse video of the event. OK, who's got something big enough, close enough, in working condition, and knows how to do a professional install? We know you're out there. >On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Unusual systems wrote: > >> Here's an idea for 3.0...get somebody close by with a working, large mini >> configuration or small mainframe and have them spend all day assemblying and >> wiring and booting it and demonstrating it the next day. A good full install >> should day all at least. > >There goes Kevin trying to scare off collectors again! Let's demo both >the install and the de-install and simulate a tie getting caught in the >line printer, the 600 lb disk drive dropping on toes, a couple of >high-voltage mishaps, and the disk-drive-as-fly-wheel effect as the truck >drives away and then tips over when it tries to make a turn. :-) > >-- Doug > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk Fri Oct 2 06:53:13 1998 From: kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk (KNIGHT G.A) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <19981001.230643.248.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:51:23 -0500 jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > You know, I've been wanting to get one of these 'CatWeasels' > so I could make Commodore disks. I've never met anyone who > has purchased one of these. If any one here has, I'd like to hear > about it. Firstly apologies if you receive two copies of this mail. Simeon (the email program I use) crashed just as I was sending the mail. I haven't got a Catweasel but there is a review of the ISA version in the October 98 edition of Amiga Format. From gene at ehrich.com Thu Oct 1 20:22:41 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: IBM XT286 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.0.2.19981001211729.00923e10@popmail.voicenet.com> > 3. Some AT boards will not fit into it. > >Actually, no AT boards will fit into it. Although it used the AT's 286 CPU, Not true, I sold them and used them and they worked. Too many years for details but the only ones that did not work are those that were to high for the XT case. >it retained the XT's 8-bit bus, and was limited to 640K RAM (no 16-bit RAM Also not true. Mine has 1 meg. >motherboard RAM was 8- or 16-bit). The XT-286 failed, not just because of I guess the definition of failure is relative. It was a very successful machine for IBM. >its limited expansion versus the AT, but due to competition from the Turbo Other than full height boards it took all of them, had just as many slots and bays and was faster than the 6 mhz AT and since it had no wait states faster than the 8-10mhz wait state clones. >XT (8-10MHz 8088/NECV20) market, which had similar performance. gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 2 07:43:20 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive Message-ID: <199810021243.AA17164@world.std.com> < We appear to differ only on the definition of "PC". Apparently we do. To me A PC is any machine fromthe IBM PC on including clones. < The PC disk controller, AS IMPLEMENTED BY IBM, did NOT provide access to < all of the capabilities of the 765. In particular, FM can NOT be done < with that board unless you make a few modifications, or replace it with < any of the better designed after-market boards. Tell me. I worked for NEC Microcomputers then and we sold IBM the 765. We were in shock at what they had done as the standard design we used that the time was far more capable. < With the 37C65 and the like, the switch between MFM and FM can be done < entirely in software, not requiring the extra hardware gate needed for The only dirfference from 765 to 37c65 is that the 37c65 has ALL the logic we'd wished IBM to use back then. My S100 contrtoller runs all the possible fm/mfm formats and was a design that predates the IBM kluge. < > In the mean time my S100 card design and the compupro DISK1A both happ < > read 8" SSSD (FM) disks and even single density 5.25 media. < < An excellent choice for the task. Both run the basic 765A < The TRS-80 model I did indeed use the 1771 (FM). Data separation was po < done, and there were after market boards to patch it. I know I worked for them too. They were always looking at the cheapest worst solution. Remember these are the same guys that brought RAS*/CAS*/MUX across from the main console with bad enough timing that the EI didn't work most of the time if it had ram. < and so did the TRS-80 model 3 and 4. But Radio Shack made some WEIRD < design decisions regarding use of Data Address Marks. Deliberate attempt on their part to keep trsdos on their systems only and part lack of knowledge. < Absolutely correct. But they CAN read some MFM formats that do NOT have < IBM style sector headers, unlike the 765 series. Considering it was never designed for anything else it sorta begs the question... Why blame the cow for soggy cereal? The WD 17xx series FDCs were good chips but several things from that era would scare off people using them... One, they did at times ship known bad chips. Two, some of the support parts like the 1691 were late or didn't work. Three, there werent intel so intel one they had the license and die to sell the 765 as the 8272 would "kit" the FDC with the 8085 or 8088 to lock out WD and other competitors. The other part was people often abused the 1771 such that even the 1791 couldn't read the disks! < There were several add-on boards for PCs for dealing with Apple ][ disks < including the Apple Turnover and Matchpoint. They installed between the Or the trackstar128 which could not only read and write apple disks it could also run apple software. Allison From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Oct 2 08:54:08 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <19981001.230643.248.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at Oct 1, 98 10:51:23 pm Message-ID: <199810021354.GAA15630@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1452 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981002/a398635d/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Oct 2 08:58:54 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 1, 98 10:10:39 pm Message-ID: <199810021358.GAA15352@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2332 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981002/97353885/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 2 10:49:58 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <19981001233626.2988.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >Is there a device that would allow _any_ disk, independently of >format, including Apple ][ disks, to be read? I know Teledisk can do >this for all conventional formats, but not Apple disks. It would be >nice to connect one of these and read the disk image into a file. >The main reason why I ask is for rescuing messed up floppies... A "Catweasel" board can do a lot of the formats including Apple. It's available in two flavors, IBM PC, and Amiga. The big problem with the one I've got for one of my Amiga's is the lack of software to actually do this!!! According to one of the creators the PC version has better software, but it can't right it out. As such the only software I've found for the Amiga supports Mac (not sure about 400k), PC, Amiga, and C-1541. However, the board is alos supposed to do Apple ][, Atari, and a couple other formats. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Oct 2 10:29:00 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Fall Edition: CP/M Users Group Swap Meet Message-ID: For those in the N.W. Oregon area (or those that need an excuse to be there!) --- The 'n'th Annual Fall edition of the CP/M-UG Computer and Electronics Swap Meet will occur on Saturday October 10th. (n'th annual 'cause we lost track many years ago!) It will be held in the lower level of the Senior Citizens Center on Omera, just south of the Tigard City Hall on Hall Blvd. As always, it's Free, Easy, and Non-Fattening! (except perhaps to your wallet or garage, depening on your approach!) Bring your Junk, your Treasures, and your Wallet! The only rule is... Leave Nothing Behind! (NO garbage service!) Address: 8815 S.W. Omera (Just south of Fanno Creek on Hall Blvd.) Tigard, OR. Hours: 0800 to 1500 or whenever the good stuff runs out! (8am to 3pm for the layfolk) Fees: No charge! (we pass the hat for contributions) NOTE: Tailgating is encouraged! Some of the best deals are made in the parking lot! (Warning: Oregon is entering the rainy season!) A limited number of tables are available on site. Plenty of space to bring your own. "Those who are late do not get fruit cup!" See you there! --- For details, or directions (fairly easy to get to from I-5 or Oregon-8) just drop me a note. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au Fri Oct 2 22:09:26 1998 From: karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au (Karl Maftoum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Jason Simpson wrote: > > I've got one of these Central Point Copy II PC "Option Board"s in the > > basement. > > Does anybody know if it would be possible for a computer equipped with an > > Option Board to read and write disk images (even of raw GCR data, say) or > > does the Option Board require two drives and simply pass incoming data > > directly to the output drive without the computer seeing the data at all? > > The HARDWARE could do it. > The option board came with 2 programs: > TC to copy disks > TE to display data and clock from disk tracks. > > The later "deluxe" model added software for reading/writing Mac 400K/800K > disk formats. This is one of those things that would be good if it was reverse-engineered, would Symantec be pursuaded to release the specs or allow reverse-engineering? If it were possible to get the specs, you could copy just about anything with one of these, I've had no reliability problems with copying mac disks on a 386 with one of these cards, i don't think they take to newer machines that well tho. Cheers Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Karl Maftoum Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia Email: k.maftoum@student.canberra.edu.au From lfb107 at psu.edu Fri Oct 2 12:34:26 1998 From: lfb107 at psu.edu (Les Berry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Xerox 16/8 Message-ID: <199810021732.NAA98660@f04n07.cac.psu.edu> At 10:11 PM 10/1/98 EDT, Innfogra@aol.com wrote: >The Xerox 16/8 is a desktop CPM Computer of the mid 1980s vintage. It has both >8 and 16 bit processors in the cabinet. I believe the original computer was >based on the UK Big Board design. The 16 bit processor is on a propriatory add >on card. It runs CPM-80 & CPM-86. If I remember right it will run an early >version of MS-DOS. Yep, mine came with MS-DOS 2.1 >It has been years since I have run mine. My 2nd computer was a Xerox 820, an >earlier model. I was delighted when I got a 16/8. > > It uses external drives which you may not have gotten. The disks availiable >were dual 8" floppys, dual 5" floppys or a 8" Floppy and 8" HD. You could use >only one set at a time. Brian of Emerald Microware (business no longer in >existance) in Beaverton, Oregon made a data sharer that would alow you to hook >up both 5 & 8" drives at the same time. He supported this family of computers >for many years. It was a nice machine. OK, I'm cinfused. Answering an ad for a "Xerox 16/8 Computer," I found out that the computer was actually an 820 II that was in possession of a Xerox employee prior to the seller. He (the seller) told me that the 820 was upgraded to be "just like" a 16/8, and judging by the haphazard looking innards (things jammmed into slots, tape holding things together, etc.), I think I believe him. I also got 3 or 4 binders for a 16/8 computer but all the pictures inside show a standard looking PC style desktop case. Which is the "real thang?" >There are two styles of keyboards, the original which is bulky and a low >profile which uses a different ROM. The basic computer consists of three >pieces, the Monitor/CPU, a keyboard and a drive cabinet. > >I have docs, drives, cpus and parts if you want to communicate with me >directly. Another note. The seller said that there were a number of different drive interfaces available for this model and that if you plugged the wrong one in it wouldn't be pretty. (I think it depended on which of the above combos you got: fd/hd, fd/fd, etc.) Mine is a SASI interface, i think (8"FD/8"HD) Les From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 2 12:35:37 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <199810021243.AA17164@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > < We appear to differ only on the definition of "PC". > Apparently we do. To me A PC is any machine fromthe IBM PC on including > clones. A valid definition. For purposes of discussion, we're better off with that definition and including anything that's close enough to run the average software. I had been referring specifically to IBM's, and to the fully "bug-for-bug" clones. I should have been far more careful with my wording, since it apparently seemed to you that I was maligning the 765, when I was actually kvetching about what IBM had done to/with it. I LIKE the 765. And except for FM access, I can live with the IBM FDC card. But for SOME purposes I prefer the older WD179x, specifically including that the "reset on index" makes extra hassles when using the PC to read some formats that have crammed data (10 512 byte sectors) too close after index (I advise my customers to try taping over the index hole on the disk if it can't find the first sector), AND, for the purpose that started this thread, the track read of the WD is more useful TO ME for analyzing track content below the sector level. > The only dirfference from 765 to 37c65 is that the 37c65 has ALL the logic > we'd wished IBM to use back then. Thereby making it MUCH more difficult for somebody like IBM to misdesign the board. > < The TRS-80 model I did indeed use the 1771 (FM). Data separation was po > < done, and there were after market boards to patch it. > I know I worked for them too. They were always looking at the cheapest > worst solution. Remember these are the same guys that brought > RAS*/CAS*/MUX across from the main console with bad enough timing that > the EI didn't work most of the time if it had ram. Even WD's data sheets recommended not relying on the internal data separator. > < and so did the TRS-80 model 3 and 4. But Radio Shack made some WEIRD > < design decisions regarding use of Data Address Marks. > Deliberate attempt on their part to keep trsdos on their systems only > and part lack of knowledge. I've sometimes heard that the mischoice that they made for WHICH DAMs to use was due to a pair of transposed columns in an early WD data sheet. Any truth? Was it Randy Cook's decision? Or somebody else, in RS? > Considering it was never designed for anything else it sorta begs the > question... Why blame the cow for soggy cereal? Good point. My uses are not always "conventional." Such as our crackpot attempt to mix multiple sizes of sectors on a floppy in order to try to squeeze just a few more K. "Hey! there's still room for one more 256 byte in addition to the 1024s and 512s" And when we made a WEIRD distribution format that simultaneously had half a dozen DIFFERENT CP/M formats on the same floppy - we eventually gave up on the file system for that and manually selected what to put on each track. Or our copy-protection that would permit making a usable copy with diskcopy but would CRASH CopyII-PC. > Or the trackstar128 which could not only read and write apple disks it > could also run apple software. That wasn't just a disk controller, it was an Apple ][ clone on a card. And WAY better that the Quadlink (80% DOA!) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 2 13:20:53 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <199810021358.GAA15352@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > You could be just as tricky with Commodore peripherals because the Commodore > drives had their own RAM, ROM and 6500-series CPU. Enterprising programmers > created 40-track DOS for it instead of 35 (some 740-odd sectors free instead > of 683) and Commodore fastloaders have long been based on this, usually using > the CLK, SRQ or ATN line as a second DATA line on the serial bus and custom > software on either end. You could easily hack Apple DOS to 40 tracks, but the limitation was some hardware (drives) couldn't seek that far. The Apple Unidisk (or 5.25" drive as it was later generically called) was only capable of 39 tracks. I can't remember what the original Disk ]['s could do. I remember being able to get some drives up to 40 tracks. > One of the most original uses for the Commodore disk drives, though, was > nothing data transfer related. A math demo for the 64 used the 1541 as a > co-processor for calculating the Mandelbrot set. Unfortunately, this didn't > yield the speed increase one would think because of the slug-like speed of > the Commodore IEC serial bus, but it was still significant, and a neat idea. > I would think similar things have been done with Atari 8-bit drives. This is indeed clever. Hans Franke was telling me about some guy in Europe (Germany?) who hooked up a bunch of 1541's to a single C64 and then parted out a Mandelbrot calculation to each to do extremely fast Fractals. I think the coolest C64 disk drive program was the one that made the drive play "Daisy" by recalibrating the drive head at different intervals; the drive head would be hitting the stop at different frequencies and created a violin like sound. I was fascinated with it. I attempted the same on the Apple with a Unidisk drive, but the best I could achieve sounded closer to a Tuba under water. Or a goose being choked. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From Roger at Sinasohn.com Fri Oct 2 14:34:18 1998 From: Roger at Sinasohn.com (Roger Sinasohn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Fwd: Osborne 01 Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981002121404.610fee68@mail.sinasohn.com> This is too high for me, especially since I just got one for free yesterday but it sounds like a nice package (with the separate monitor, if it's an Osborne monitor.) Contact the seller, not me; I know nothing other than what you see below. ----------------------------------------- >From: "Don Gatterman" >Subject: Re: Your Internet web page re the Osborne 01 / I still have it,... Haven't gotten back to selling it..... > >It is the Blue-Gray model and I am asking $225.00 , or best offer, plus >shipping if necessary. This would include the computer and printer, and >separate monitor, all cords, software, and periodicals. Thanks for your >note. Please feel free to call me at ( 360 ) 352-1883 if you hear of >anyone who might be interested. > > Thanx Don > > >PS, I am the sole original owner, and it is in excellent condition... > >-----Original Message----- >>>originally purchased through Sears and has a built-in Osborne add-on >modem, >>>Star Micronix printer w/ cable, separate monitor, Kleertex keyboard >>>template for Osborne with Wordstar commands etc. Any interested party may --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Oct 2 15:03:30 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Xerox 16/8 Message-ID: <9fc7f405.36153192@aol.com> In a message dated 98-10-02 13:36:17 EDT, you write: << Answering an ad for a "Xerox 16/8 Computer," I found out that the computer was actually an 820 II that was in possession of a Xerox employee prior to the seller. He (the seller) told me that the 820 was upgraded to be "just like" a 16/8, and judging by the haphazard looking innards (things jammmed into slots, tape holding things together, etc.), I think I believe him. I also got 3 or 4 binders for a 16/8 computer but all the pictures inside show a standard looking PC style desktop case. Which is the "real thang?" >> The answer is both. Most 16/8s that I have seen are 820 IIs that have been upgraded to 16/8s. This explains the tape and wires. At one time I had gotten the upgrade kit myself. I never installed it because I found a factory 16/8. It looked just like my 820 II with a different bezel. When the IBM PC was introduced the market for these dropped considerably. Xerox was selling into the business market at about a $2000 price point. It was adapt or die. Xerox redesigned the case to look like the new PCs. Printed new manuals. They died anyway The winds of change were blowing. If you find one of the PC versions of the 16/8 save it. There are very few of them. Most of Xerox's production run was remaindered. I saw them surplus for a couple of years. I bet most of them were scrapped. I have never seen one with the PC style case. I have manuals with pictures too. You may be right on the drive interfaces although all the drive boxes use the same 50 pin plug. I would have to do some research. Paxton From g at kurico.com Fri Oct 2 15:32:29 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Need info on Teletype Message-ID: Just picked up a couple of terminals. A Teletype 3320 and (from memory here) DECWriter III. Any information on the teletype would be greatly appreciated (like how to interface to it, it has some small centronics type connector on the end of the cable). As for the DEC, I'll give it to anyone who wants to come pick it up in the Central Texas area (Austin specifically). It's untested and the best I'd be able to do anyway is to see if it powers up. I'll give it about a week before I trash it unless someone can convince me otherwise. George From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Oct 2 15:42:35 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Seeking: ASR-35/37 TTY - trade ASR-33 ? Message-ID: Opening mostly says it all... I'm looking for an ASR 35 or 37 teletype. Offering an ASR-33 as all/part trade. So... if you have one that is just too darn big, and want something smaller, (and are hopefully in the Oregon/Washington area or have a shipper with a sense of humour) lets talk! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Oct 2 15:58:12 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 2, 98 11:20:53 am Message-ID: <199810022058.NAA14466@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1061 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981002/2927eb6a/attachment.ksh From ecloud at goodnet.com Fri Oct 2 16:40:33 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: from "Karl Maftoum" at Oct 3, 98 03:09:26 am Message-ID: <199810022140.OAA03288@goodnet.com> > This is one of those things that would be good if it was > reverse-engineered, would Symantec be pursuaded to release the specs or > allow reverse-engineering? If it were possible to get the specs, you could > copy just about anything with one of these, I've had no reliability With that stupid IP law Congress just passed, it's probably illegal now. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * TCP/IP packet * 808 State * Gravis Ultrasound * sci fi * virtual reality * From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 2 12:36:58 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <36142BDD.7C1BB673@banet.net> from "Will Emerson" at Oct 1, 98 09:26:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3742 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981002/704dbac3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 2 12:42:11 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:01 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <19981002014616.28035.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 2, 98 01:46:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1954 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981002/9d2d812e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 2 13:26:42 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Can anyone identify this vax for sale on Ebay? In-Reply-To: <199810020326.AA00682@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Oct 1, 98 11:26:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 705 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981002/7b549175/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 2 13:32:59 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: DOS Floppy format (Was: Universal drive In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 1, 98 11:01:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1348 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981002/9d963d3a/attachment.ksh From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Oct 2 17:02:44 1998 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: PDP-9 In-Reply-To: <199810012300.QAA02411@mxu1.u.washington.edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981002170244.0093fc20@texas.net> >Better get a small truck... > >http://pc.dec-j.co.jp/support/may/dec_jpg/part_1/image/pdp9.jpg > >>I just talked to somebody that has a PDP-9 that has been in continuous use >>(24 hours/day) since 1967! They're finally thinking about phasing it out. >>So, I was thinking.... How big is a PDP-9? Actually in that picture, the PDP-9 is the 'silver' unit mounted directly above the shelf on the far left of the cabinets. That's really all the PDP-9 is. The rest of the other are drives and (looks like an oscilloscope) unknown stuff. By my faulty memory, the actual computer is about 2.5'W x 1'H x 2.5L. Warning, they are HEAVY! Arfon From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 2 17:15:53 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Can anyone identify this vax for sale on Ebay? Message-ID: <199810022215.AA06148@world.std.com> < IIRC the Pro 325 uses an F11 as well, although I've not seen one. The pro325 and 350 are the same machine save for the 325 is floppy only and the 350 had floppy and hard disk. < I am not suprised. Although there's a PDP11 CPU in there, the I/O system < and interrupt structure is nothing like any other PDP11... the primary thing was the memory mapped video. the PDT-11 also had strange IO. Allison From cmcmanis at freegate.com Fri Oct 2 17:26:23 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: PDP-9 In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981002170244.0093fc20@texas.net> References: <199810012300.QAA02411@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199810022219.PAA27284@mxu4.u.washington.edu> At 05:02 PM 10/2/98 -0500, you wrote: >Actually in that picture, the PDP-9 is the 'silver' unit mounted directly >above the shelf on the far left of the cabinets. That's really all the >PDP-9 is. The rest of the other are drives and (looks like an oscilloscope) >unknown stuff. The oscilloscope is the 1K by 1k output display that is similar to the PDP-1 and TX-0 displays. But the point that the PDP-9 offered might not have off the cabinets is well taken. --Chuck From yowza at yowza.com Fri Oct 2 17:27:03 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: PDP-9 In-Reply-To: <199810022219.PAA27284@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Chuck McManis wrote: > The oscilloscope is the 1K by 1k output display that is similar to the PDP-1 > and TX-0 displays. But the point that the PDP-9 offered might not have off > the cabinets is well taken. How did those displays work and what were they called? (DECScope?) I assume the PDP-1 didn't have a memory-mapped display, so did it send vector info to the display a la Tek 4010? -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Fri Oct 2 17:32:13 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Tony Cole and the Crays In-Reply-To: <199810022219.PAA27284@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: He's selling his Cray bits on Haggle (at a slight discount). I actually got one of the Cray-1 boards second-hand. They're pretty cool, and since I got mine indirectly, I don't feel personally repsonsible for the Cray that gave its life for the sake of art. http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201777875 -- Doug From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 2 17:58:26 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: DOS Floppy format (Was: Universal drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > Are you looking for the DIRectory structures, track layout (sector > > headers and the like), or explanation of MFM? > The former is probably in some books on MS-DOS system programming, or > possibly read the Linux MS-DOS filesystem source code or something like that. Also, early versions of PC-DOS (<3.10?) had an appendix with it. It's important if you need to repair damaged disk structures, or if you are trying to write an alien file system handler (such as to read or write MS-DOS disks on some other kind of machine. > The second is in the disk controller data sheets (Intel 8272, NEC 765, > etc), although IMHO they don't explain it that well. Figuring out exactly > what sequence of pulses was a data marker was interesting, for example. > The last is probably also in some of the disk controller data sheets, > although I can't find it at the moment. At least some of the Shugart drive technical reference manuals have it. For those in the SF Bay area, look for a UC Extension course held in Palo Alto by Mark Young, entitled "Floppy and Winchester Disk Controller technology". GREAT course, and explains below sector level issues quite well. > In general you only need the last 2 levels if you are trying to make a > disk controller or make sense of the raw data stream from the drive on a > logic analyser. Or, with access to clock and data, trying to repair sector headers, CRC errors, etc. > You don't need to know this to talk to the disk > controller registers - you tell the chip to read a sector and it does so. > The disk controller handles finding the sector, stripping off the header, > checking the CRC, etc. Certainly a much more civilized and sensible way to do things. But some of us are crazy enough to forego that level of sanity. > Post them here. They are related to machines over 10 years old, aren't they? I'm going to look for some files that I had poreviously written, so as not to have to redo. >10 years old? Oh, yes. Nothing much has changed in longer than that. (And that's when I wrote those files) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Oct 2 18:08:05 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Robot Odyssey? Message-ID: <199810022308.QAA03235@saul2.u.washington.edu> I hope I didn't mention this before... I'm looking for any versions of a game called "Robot Odyssey". It was written by The Learning Company and is a very unusual combination of an electronics simulator and a 2-D adventure game. The Apple ][ version sold especially well; there were three versions (1.0, 1.1, 2.0). I own an original copy of 1.0. I _had_ an original copy of 2.0 and sold it, and still feel really stupid. The only pirated copies are 1.0. However, there were also versions for: the IBM PC (definitely exists), the Tandy CoCo (almost definitely exists), and the Commodore 64 (probably exists). TLC may have promised others (Atari?) which were never released. I'm posting here because: - The kind of geeks on this list would probably love this game. :) - The Apple newsgroups are a waste of time. - No one at the VCF had any idea what I was talking about. - Maybe someone knows the authors of the program? The receptionists at TLC are (obviously) clueless, but I've heard that even talking to higher-up people there is a waste of time. (This is from a Web site I found.) So if there's any chance of getting "inside" info on the program, the authors are it. Thanks, -- Derek From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Fri Oct 2 18:36:23 1998 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: FS: Apple Lisa System on Auction Message-ID: <36156377.1E6A@polymail.calpoly.edu> I was a member of this list for quite a while but the mail load got to be too much for my school account. I have placed an Apple Lisa 7/7 on the eBay auction recently. The bidding ends on Sunday the 4th of October. It's a nice system and I posted a ton of pictures at my page: http://www.calpoly.edu/~gmast/sfs/lisa/lisa.html The bidding hasn't been that great so I think this system will go for a good price. It will sell regardless. If this post offends anyone, I apologize but I know some people here might want one of these for their collection and this might be a good opportunity. For more info, check out the auction listing at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=32694351 and check out the pictures at the link above. The bidding must take place through the auction now that I've listed it. Bidding is free but you must register with the auction. Thanks, Greg From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 2 18:37:04 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <199810022140.OAA03288@goodnet.com> (message from Shawn Rutledge on Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:40:33 -0700 (MST)) References: <199810022140.OAA03288@goodnet.com> Message-ID: <19981002233704.32580.qmail@brouhaha.com> >> This is one of those things that would be good if it was >> reverse-engineered, would Symantec be pursuaded to release the specs or >> allow reverse-engineering? If it were possible to get the specs, you could >> copy just about anything with one of these, I've had no reliability > With that stupid IP law Congress just passed, it's probably illegal now. AFAIK, it hasn't come out of conference committee yet. But even when it is signed into law, I have no intention of ceasing my various reverse- engineering projects. Seems like a great form of civil disobedience to me. Anyhow, the law only bans reverse-engineering of copyright protection systems, although it doesn't define exactly what a copyright protection system is, so I suppose that manufacturers of computer hardware and software can claim that the unavailability of specifications and source code is copyright protection of their designs. Damn their scaly hides! From oajones at bright.net Fri Oct 2 18:41:47 1998 From: oajones at bright.net (oajones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: FS: Aquarius Personal Computer, Model 5931R Message-ID: <361564BB.41EE@bright.net> I recently aquired a Aquarius computer. http://www.chez.com/samurai/ORDIS/aqua.htm This computer is working and is in good condition. It can be yours for $20 plus shipping costs. I don't have any documentation or software to include--sorry. If anyone is interested in it please send me email. --Alan -- Computing since: 1982, VIC-20, CoCo, PC, CP/M Military Computers: COMTRAN 10, Nida 250 Amateur Radio since: 1971, WN8JEF, KA6EXR, N8BGR, AA4ZI BASIC, dBASE, Assembly, C++ http://www.bright.net/~oajones From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 2 18:43:22 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19981002234322.32607.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The advantage of the hardware PLL and clock synthesiser is that it's also > possible to write the disks with the pulses in the right places. I've > been thinking about making a 'universal' controller that can not only > read obscure disks, but can also produce them. No, if you oversample at a sufficient rate, writing disks is no problem either. My suggested 8x the channel code rate should work fine; 16x or more would obviously work fine but would be overkill. Software PLLs are much easier to muck about with even than DPLLs in FPGAs. If you're going to use a clock synthesizer (even though it is unnecessary), you might as well simply use it for the sample clock at a multiple of the channel code rate, and still do the data decode (or encode) in software. Eric From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Oct 2 18:52:22 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: DOS Floppy format (Was: Universal drive Message-ID: <19981002235222.27947.qmail@hotmail.com> Since this is about DOS, which is >10, I think it's postable. What I'm wondering about is the entire format description, like the FAT, sector headers, everything. >> OK, next question. While I look for weird expansion cards, is there >> any book that I stand a chance at finding which details the DOS flopy >> format? > >Are you looking for the DIRectory structures, track layout (sector >headers and the like), or explanation of MFM? > > >ADMIN Q: Should those items get posted here, or taken private? > >-- >Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com >XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com >2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 >Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 2 18:45:53 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: PDP-9 In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981002170244.0093fc20@texas.net> (message from Arfon Gryffydd on Fri, 02 Oct 1998 17:02:44 -0500) References: <3.0.3.32.19981002170244.0093fc20@texas.net> Message-ID: <19981002234553.32620.qmail@brouhaha.com> Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > By my faulty memory, the actual computer is about 2.5'W x 1'H x 2.5L. > Warning, they are HEAVY! Your memory is faulty. The computer occupies several 72" racks. You must be thinking of a PDP-8/e or something. Reference: Computer Engineering: a DEC View of Hardware System Design From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Oct 2 18:53:21 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Robot Odyssey? Message-ID: http://members.aol.com/Fractal101/odyssey.htm Kai -----Original Message----- From: D. Peschel [mailto:dpeschel@u.washington.edu] Sent: Friday, October 02, 1998 4:08 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Robot Odyssey? I hope I didn't mention this before... I'm looking for any versions of a game called "Robot Odyssey". It was written by The Learning Company and is a very unusual combination of an electronics simulator and a 2-D adventure game. The Apple ][ version sold especially well; there were three versions (1.0, 1.1, 2.0). I own an original copy of 1.0. I _had_ an original copy of 2.0 and sold it, and still feel really stupid. The only pirated copies are 1.0. However, there were also versions for: the IBM PC (definitely exists), the Tandy CoCo (almost definitely exists), and the Commodore 64 (probably exists). TLC may have promised others (Atari?) which were never released. I'm posting here because: - The kind of geeks on this list would probably love this game. :) - The Apple newsgroups are a waste of time. - No one at the VCF had any idea what I was talking about. - Maybe someone knows the authors of the program? The receptionists at TLC are (obviously) clueless, but I've heard that even talking to higher-up people there is a waste of time. (This is from a Web site I found.) So if there's any chance of getting "inside" info on the program, the authors are it. Thanks, -- Derek From aaron at wfi-inc.com Fri Oct 2 18:55:17 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: CRASH!!! Message-ID: My mailer crashed and I lost some addresses. A few days ago I asked if anyone needed a 486DX/2 66 chip...uh...if you responded then, please email me again. There were three responses, and I remember that the third one was Uncle Rodger. Sorry for the inconvenience, guys. Aaron From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Fri Oct 2 15:13:38 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: CRASH!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199810022349.TAA20782@commercial.cgocable.net> > Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 16:55:17 -0700 (PDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Aaron Christopher Finney > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: CRASH!!! > > My mailer crashed and I lost some addresses. A few days ago I asked if > anyone needed a 486DX/2 66 chip...uh...if you responded then, please email > me again. There were three responses, and I remember that the third one > was Uncle Rodger. > > Sorry for the inconvenience, guys. > > > Aaron > Aaron, Kill the guy who take care of those email servers... :) BTW, I no longer own the 700C, is now on the way to CA to Doug's . Contact him because your offer on batteries still stands but he's in Calif that might make yours much easier to send them to Doug instead of me. Interesting that you said DX2 66 CPU the day your email appeared. I needed one. :) But too late I got a DX2 50 o/c'ed to 66. But if you know of anyone or others with this CPU DX2 66 or Overdrive Processor Ready DX4 100, I would like one. Ebay don't count because they're asking too much for that CPU. Thanks! Jason D. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Oct 2 19:38:58 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Robot Odyssey? In-Reply-To: from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Oct 2, 98 04:53:21 pm Message-ID: <199810030038.RAA28865@saul9.u.washington.edu> > http://members.aol.com/Fractal101/odyssey.htm > > Kai Thanks, but I already searched the Web before mailing the list. Anyway, it doesn't seem to answer any of the questions I asked (about non-Apple versions and source code). -- Derek From wpe101 at banet.net Fri Oct 2 19:48:59 1998 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: VCF mentioned in UK newspaper References: <35EB101F.C4F7A7CE@joules.enterprise-plc.com> Message-ID: <3615747B.97F60897@banet.net> Sir, if you wouldn't mind, could I also be included as a recipient of the copy Sam requested? Thanks! Will Pete Joules wrote: > > There was write up of the VCF in todays Guardian, it included a picture > of an Altair and a wooden Apple, along with an account of Ray Holt's > talk. > > It also says the it was organised by "...Sam Ismail, a goateed, > hyperactive young programmer who started his own collection of 200 > machines 11 years ago...". Is this a fair description Sam? ;-) > > Regards > Pete > > PS Congratulations, Sam, on what seems to have been a very sucessful > event. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Oct 2 19:35:17 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Computer Museum of America Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981002174315.0b679a46@ricochet.net> Has anyone been to the Computer Museum of America? It's near San Diego, California. URL is http://www.computer-museum.org/. Looks interesting, but I'm using Lynx at the moment and can't see anything. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Oct 2 19:35:20 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Tandy 1000's Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981002175131.6cb7db5a@ricochet.net> Is there any interest in Tandy 1000's? As far as I can tell, they all look like basic systems with 2 floppies. May have some matching monitors. Local non-profit has a bunch (from a school) and doesn't know what to do with them. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Oct 2 20:15:15 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Computer Museum of America In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981002174315.0b679a46@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Oct 2, 98 05:35:17 pm Message-ID: <199810030115.SAA13238@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 657 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981002/a614951e/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 2 20:30:29 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: FS: Apple Lisa System on Auction In-Reply-To: <36156377.1E6A@polymail.calpoly.edu> (message from Greg Mast on Fri, 02 Oct 1998 16:36:23 -0700) References: <36156377.1E6A@polymail.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <19981003013029.192.qmail@brouhaha.com> Greg Mast wrote: > I have placed an Apple Lisa 7/7 on the eBay auction recently. The > bidding ends on Sunday the 4th of October. It's a nice system and I > posted a ton of pictures at my page: > http://www.calpoly.edu/~gmast/sfs/lisa/lisa.html $200 for a broken Lisa sound steep to me, but eBay is a seller's market. Good luck! From mbg at world.std.com Fri Oct 2 22:00:54 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Can anyone identify this vax for sale on Ebay? Message-ID: <199810030300.AA22490@world.std.com> >< IIRC the Pro 325 uses an F11 as well, although I've not seen one. > >The pro325 and 350 are the same machine save for the 325 is floppy only >and the 350 had floppy and hard disk. Right... >< I am not suprised. Although there's a PDP11 CPU in there, the I/O > >the primary thing was the memory mapped video. the PDT-11 also had >strange IO. The PDT-130 and -150 both used the same device driver (PD), though they would display as different device codes, if I remember. The interesting thing about them was the fact that the firmware knew about RT-11 queue elements, so all the driver had to do was take the queue element and pass it to the ROM, which handled the IO, returning if there was an error, or when the request was satisfied. The driver then returned to the monitor the completed queue element. The PDTs were also interesting in that they used an 8085 (later an 8085A) to handle the IO page. Word accesses were about 90ms, byte accesses were about 180ms if I remember correctly, and we had to avoid any read-modify-write instructions (BIS/BIC) otherwise it would take twice as long as the 90ms/180ms... Finally, an interesting point, the PDT-11/110, which had no storage devices, had code in ROM which understood the same protocol as the GT40 for downloading code... Somewhere I have a program I wrote for use at a science fiction convention (worldcon-1980, in boston) where I used a PDT-11/150 to download a GT40 with various programs like lunar lander or roses, or bowling, etc... (The favorite, of course, was lunar lander) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From bill_r at inetnebr.com Fri Oct 2 22:18:51 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Great Find In-Reply-To: <000301bded33$5e6479c0$9dafadce@5x86jk> References: <000301bded33$5e6479c0$9dafadce@5x86jk> Message-ID: <3619972a.100581768@insight> I was just at a state sale about 3 weeks ago where somebody bought something like 35 AS/400's in one lot for about $75... I think they used to have them in all the county extension offices, and must have replaced them with something else. On Thu, 1 Oct 1998 07:02:31 -0500, you wrote: >On Wednesday I got a IBM AS/400 model 9404 for free, it is just the CPU unit >with the front cover missing. It had two keys with it along a 5 1/4 FD and a >tape backup unit installed. I've been trying to get some information about >from IBM's web site but not much luck. Hope to fire it up soon. John -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.) From bill_r at inetnebr.com Fri Oct 2 22:20:30 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Here comes the Hurricane In-Reply-To: <36090B07.2AE95A98@sprintmail.com> References: <199809240043.UAA22204@smtp.interlog.com> <36090B07.2AE95A98@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: <361a97ca.100741518@insight> Are you still with us Phil? Haven't heard anything since before the hurricane. Did you and all the computers come through okay? On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:51:51 -0400, you wrote: >> On 22 Sep 98 at 16:10, Phil Clayton wrote: >> > Well folks looks like I have 2 days to get my collection of >> > over 80 computers to either high ground or in a really secure >> > place (Not likely I can move them).. >> > Weather.com says I am right in the middle of Hurricane George's path. >> > Looks like I will be busy, not only securing my home, but >> -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.) From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 2 22:52:37 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Guardian article Message-ID: Here's the Guardian article for those who were interested in reading it. Copyright 1998 Guardian Newspapers Limited The Guardian (London) October 1, 1998 SECTION: The Guardian Online Page; Pg. 4 LENGTH: 739 words HEADLINE: Not just any old iron;A festival of vintage computers threatens to rewrite computing history. Karlin Lillington reports BYLINE: Karlin Lillington BODY: Computing history is clear - microprocessors were invented by three engineers at Intel in 1971. Or were they? That notion was disputed in a press conference at the Vintage Computer Festival in Santa Clara, California on Saturday, when an obscure computer consultant from San Jose revealed that he initiated work on a secret onboard computer for the US Navy's F-14A TomCat fighter jet that contained a chipset comprising three microprocessors and three support chips - in 1968 (and completed in 1969). According to 53-year-old Ray Holt, the Navy has only now released documents allowing him to publish the details of his work. Holt read out an analysis from a former chip designer for Motorola, Russell Fish, which stated his belief that, had the microprocessor design been made public in 1969, it would have advanced the industry by five years. However, two of the Intel engineers involved with the creation of the 1971 microprocessor, Ted Hoff and Federico Faggin, have already disputed the claim in a Wall Street Journal article, centring on the correct definition of a microprocessor (six chips should not qualify, according to the two). Whoever deserves the laurels, the achievement of Holt and his small team was astonishing for its time. In today's world of finicky microprocessors, which overheat easily, the chips in Holt's F-14 could function at the temperature of boiling water - in a range of -55C to +125C. Because of size and weight restrictions for the F-14, the circuit board was an extraordinary 6 by 4 inches for a highly sophisticated flight computer that analysed and controlled altitude, angle, speed, missile systems, positioning of the movable wings, and other functions. Machines of similar power at the time weighed 300-400 pounds. 'I think as computer designers and people interested in history, we need to know this happened,' says Holt. 'That back then, we could do this.' Other hardware at the show at least enjoyed a moment of fame - however fleeting. Who now remembers the MAD Computer, the Sol, the Exidy Sorcerer or the Czech -designed Tesla 780, which used a TV set as its monitor? Most people might see the machines as just back-of-the-garage dust magnets, but hardcore computer buffs were entranced by these footnotes to the history of computing, lovingly displayed at the show. Organised by a Sam Ismail, a goateed, hyperactive young programmer who started his own collection of 200 machines 11 years ago at age 17, the festival attracted several hundred devotees. The kind of person who thrills at the mention of the Altair, the kit-built, embryonic personal computer from 1975. Some came for the computer flea market, others to hear such speakers as computer designer turned Microsoft researcher Gordon Bell (who admitted during his talk on the prehistory of personal computers that he proposed to his wife using a program he created at DEC). But the festival's soul lay in the impromptu museum of geriatric hardware. Sitting among neat rows of his Commodore PCs, exhibitor Larry Anderson explained the motivation for collecting what others send to the landfill: 'Nostalgia. This is the type of computer I went to school and used,' he says, caressing the metal casing of a 1977 Commodore 2001 series PC. The machine boasts 4 kilobytes of memory - in comparison, computers today routinely come with 4,000 times as much. 'Chips were so unreliable that the Commodore came with a spare,' says Anderson, pointing to an extra chip taped into one corner of the box, like an extra coat button. The manufacturer warned that chips frequently came loose and needed to be pushed back down. The Atari manual, he says, actually recommended dropping the machine from three to four inches if it wasn't working properly. Nearly every species of computer basked in visitors' attention: the 1975 prototype Apple I, screwed onto a piece of plywood by Apple founders Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs; the first IBM PC, and the first Sun micro computer. The crowning event was the Super Nerd computer quiz, covering such categories as computing acronyms, computers in the movies and 'Nerdpourri'. Ismail conducted the entire quiz - to much general admiration - from behind the green -screen glow of an Apple III from his collection. Ray Holt's paper on the F-14A computer's architecture is at www.microcomputerhistory.com The Vintage Computer festival is at www.vintage.org/vcf/ Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 2 23:07:50 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 Message-ID: Heads up all you homebrew hackers! Next year we'd like to help revive the homebrew ethic by featuring YOUR homebrew projects in the exhibit section of the VCF. There will be awards presented for best homebrew project in different categories. Get out those soldering irons! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From yowza at yowza.com Fri Oct 2 23:16:13 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Next year we'd like to help revive the homebrew ethic by featuring YOUR > homebrew projects in the exhibit section of the VCF. There will be awards > presented for best homebrew project in different categories. Get out > those soldering irons! What's a soldering iron? (Do homebrew simulators count?) -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 2 23:48:16 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Damn Message-ID: Came close to finding the cable for my laptop by instead found some audio cables that probably belong to either Rax or Roger. I'll be in SF next so I'll try to bring them and drop them off with Roger since I know about where he lives. Can Rax and Roger please check their audio gear and see if my laptop cable got mixed in with some of theirs? You'll know it when you see it: normal wall plug on one end (three-prong) and a funky three-prong on the other that looks like it can't belong to anything but a stupid Compaq laptop. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 2 23:49:22 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > Next year we'd like to help revive the homebrew ethic by featuring YOUR > > homebrew projects in the exhibit section of the VCF. There will be awards > > presented for best homebrew project in different categories. Get out > > those soldering irons! > > What's a soldering iron? (Do homebrew simulators count?) Yes! This year I'll try to put together that programming contest I wanted to do this year. But certainly there can be a "Best Simulator" contest. Just think of all the great simulators this could provoke. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 2 23:50:27 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: VCF Press Clippings Message-ID: Allow me to introduce you to my vanity: http://www.vintage.org/vcf/press.htm VCF press clippings for the past year or so. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Sat Oct 3 00:06:40 1998 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: FW: pdp11/44 free to good home in TX In-Reply-To: <01bdeda9$0467a840$22a442c6@moonpie.citx.com> References: <01bdeda9$0467a840$22a442c6@moonpie.citx.com> Message-ID: <3616b09a.470600698@smtp.wa.jps.net> My God... as little as six months ago, 11/44's seemed rare. Now it seems like they're coming out of the woodwork! Another free system over in Texas. Contact the fellow directly if interested... -=-=- -=-=- On 2 Oct 1998 02:01:12 GMT, in alt.sys.pdp11 you wrote: >>From: "Eric" >>Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 >>Subject: pdp11/44 free to good home in TX >>Date: 2 Oct 1998 02:01:12 GMT >>Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here >>Lines: 13 >>Message-ID: <01bdeda9$0467a840$22a442c6@moonpie.citx.com> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.66.164.34 >>X-Trace: 907293672 0R4SAZH0CA422C642C usenet54.supernews.com >>X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 >>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!spamkiller1.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!199.60.229.5!newsfeed.direct.ca!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail >> >>11/44 CPU >>TS11 tape drive >>(2) RK07 disk units >>many rk07 packs >>decwriterII >>vt100 terminal >>manuals, service history >>unit operational at de-installation >>deinstalled from a school >> >>30 days and it's going to the metal scrapyard, would rather see her have a >>good home. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) jps [dot] net Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From Aaron_J_Hayden at student.ferris.edu Sat Oct 3 06:39:40 1998 From: Aaron_J_Hayden at student.ferris.edu (Aaron_J_Hayden@student.ferris.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <85256692.00400EDB.00@fsunotes2.ferris.edu> Thanks for all of the responces. They're very much appreciated. At any rate, while attempting to keep my first message short I left out some important info. So we'll see if this clarifies any? I have a 4863 monitor (which does not use the RCA plug). This computer has two floppy drives and two cartidge slots. Which slot is primary? The left I assume. With the machine I got a BASIC cartridge, three DOS 2.1 disks, and a couple DOS 3.21 disks. However, I don't think the computer is trying to boot. That is, it's not reading the drive (red LED doesn't light). I didn't get any manuals with it, although I'm sure I have the monitor plugged in right. It only can go in one plug, one way. The keyboard however, can go in a lot of places, but which one? It came w/ two power supplies and the computer acts the same with either one. (I have not had a chance to check them with the info I've got so far). I do not have a logic analyser (but I do have a RCA signal generator used to work on t.v.'s if that can be used i n any way). Again, thanks for the help and I hope this info helps too. Aaron From CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 3 07:26:05 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Free racks, DC area Message-ID: <981003082605.c4@trailing-edge.com> Available immediately: Two computer racks. One is a ~7foot tall Sun rack, regular 19" rail spacing, vented top, and nice side panels. The other is a System Industries rack, about 5 feet tall, with regular 19" rail spacing and an additional area to the right holding the power distribution system. The SI rack has a bank of 120VAC fans on top for cooling, too. You pick up in Bethesda, MD. I'll help load them onto your truck. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From jruschme at exit109.com Sat Oct 3 08:52:15 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Oct 2, 98 06:36:58 pm" Message-ID: <199810031352.JAA13214@crobin.home.org> > > > > Hello Aaron, welcome to the list.. I dealt with a PC jr a few years ago, > > and iirr, it didn't boot itself, you had to insert a dos (gawd help me > > If you turn on a PCjr without a disk in place (or without a controller > card at all...) it will go into ROM (cassette) BASIC. > > > what version) floppy to get it to boot. No clue as to whether that's the > > Certainly a 'stock' PC-DOS 3.3 floppy will work. That's what I boot mine > off. It needs to be a 360K disk (of course). The drive in my PCjr has an interesting failure mode in that it must be missing some sort of Track 0 stop. Basically, certain types of disk errors will send the head off into never-never land until it is manually reset. Am I correct in assuming I can swap in a regular 360K drive, caveat the lack of original IBM logo? <<>> From CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 3 09:08:33 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: ESDI, MSCP, RSX11M, TK50's, etc. Message-ID: <981003100833.e6@trailing-edge.com> >of my parts and tapes. I discovered that I've got two ESDI controllers, >instead of the one that I knew about, one is a Emulex QD21 which I found >the manual online for, the other a "Webster WQESD" which I have the manual >for. Which version of WOMBAT is on your WQESD? You can identify this by either looking at the sticker over the firmware EPROM, or if this doesn't tell you, by starting up the on-board diagnostics. Certain versions of Wombat do not interact well with RSX-11M's DU driver. Very often, older versions will work better than certain newer versions. Most of my systems are running WOMBAT V2.3, which works fine for me with the PDP-11 OS's (but *not* with later VMS versions.) WOMBAT V2.3 does work a little strangely with 2.11BSD's MSCP driver when you do a "shutdown -r", having something to do with the CPU doing a bus reset while the controller is still doing a write. I've never attempted to compile a list of which versions of the PDP-11 OS's do and do not work with various WOMBAT versions, but perhaps it would be worthwhile to build such a table. As it is, I just pop in different firmware EPROM's until it works. It's also worth checking that the WQESD really does respond to the CSR you think you've set it to. The table in your manual is probably correct for the most common address configuration PAL, but there are several dozen different address configuration PAL's that were made for special applications. If you have one of these non-standard PAL's, you'll probably be much better off to put the WQESD at 17772150 and the floppy controller at some other CSR. --- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sat Oct 3 11:00:43 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Robot Odyssey References: <199810030702.AAA25146@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <36164A28.9B08FA1A@goldrush.com> > From: "D. Peschel" > Subject: Robot Odyssey? > > I hope I didn't mention this before... > > I'm looking for any versions of a game called "Robot Odyssey". It was written > by The Learning Company and is a very unusual combination of an electronics > simulator and a 2-D adventure game. A two minute search on Yahoo have me this archive directory: http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/mac/apple_II/images/educational/robot_odyssey/ > The Apple ][ version sold especially well; there were three versions (1.0, > 1.1, 2.0). I own an original copy of 1.0. I _had_ an original copy of 2.0 > and sold it, and still feel really stupid. The only pirated copies are 1.0. > > However, there were also versions for: the IBM PC (definitely exists), the > Tandy CoCo (almost definitely exists), and the Commodore 64 (probably exists). > TLC may have promised others (Atari?) which were never released. > > I'm posting here because: > > - The kind of geeks on this list would probably love this game. :) > > - The Apple newsgroups are a waste of time. > > - No one at the VCF had any idea what I was talking about. When I went to school they had PETs... > - Maybe someone knows the authors of the program? The receptionists > at TLC are (obviously) clueless, but I've heard that even talking > to higher-up people there is a waste of time. (This is from a Web > site I found.) So if there's any chance of getting "inside" info > on the program, the authors are it. > > Thanks, > > -- Derek -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Oct 3 10:16:28 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13392841655.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Simulators count!] Hmm... By that time e10 should be winning! I just checked in the halfword instructions, so I'm 22% finished. Of Course, I wouldn't be able to run al the way out to CA to show it of... *mumblemumbleswearingmumble*... ------- From mark_k at iname.com Sat Oct 3 11:09:28 1998 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Universal drive Message-ID: On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 Max Eskin wrote: >Is there a device that would allow _any_ disk, independently of >format, including Apple ][ disks, to be read? I know Teledisk can do >this for all conventional formats, but not Apple disks. It would be >nice to connect one of these and read the disk image into a file. >The main reason why I ask is for rescuing messed up floppies... There is a product called Catweasel which is available for the Amiga and PC (ISA card). This is a floppy disk controller which is capable of reading and/or writing many disk formats. According to a magazine article that I have in front of me, the ISA version currently supports (amongst others) Amiga DD & HD, Apple II, Mac 400K & 800K, Commodore 1541 & 1571. I don't know whether reading Mac 400K & 800K disks requires a non-standard type of 3.5" drive or not. PC software support is apparently not too good at the moment, meaning that you will have to write your own code for more exotic disk formats. The supplied MS-DOS programs require a 486 for no good reason. A Linux driver is supplied, but this is object code only, not source. (IMO trying to keep the software that accesses the card private like this is a really silly thing to do.) Anyway, the URL given was http://www.jshoenfeld.com/eindex.html On Thu, 1 Oct 1998 Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >Atari ST uses DOS format in the first place. Amiga can be read on the PC by >Amiga emulators. C64, I have no idea, but I know at least you could use a >C128 to copy files to CP/M format. Amiga disks cannot be read by normal PC disk controllers. You can make a cable to hook up a 1541 disk drive to a PC or Amiga and read files or disk images using this. -- Mark From go at ao.com Sat Oct 3 12:27:32 1998 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199810031727.KAA27650@office.ao.com> I hesitate to ask this question, since it may elicit some "religious" responses as well as the intended ones... I've been lurking on this group for quite a while, feeding my habit with great stories of old machine rescues and resurrections. It's great to hear of the machines folks have in their collections or that are found and restore to operable condition. But I'm posing a different question for the list: are there any "real home brew" projects underway or that have been completed in the past? And to keep it on topic, I suppose I should confine my question to home brew computers that were started more than ten years ago or that use technology more than ten years old. I read a few of the news groups that discuss home brew computers, but, lately they really only talk about plugging power supplies, motherboards and peripherals together to make a (shudder) PC. I'm talking about *REAL* iron (or aluminum.) Starting from basic relay, transistor, or IC (SSI or MSI only!) and rolling a machine the "hard way." Recreations of old machines (i.e. building your own PDP-1) would make a very interesting discussions. To start things, I'd like to offer that I'm in the process of recreating a copy of Edmund Berkeley's "Simon" computer designed and built by him in the 50's as a demonstration "show and tell" of how a "real" computer works. It's a collection of 100+ relays, two paper tape readers and some blinkey lights. Version 1 was a "two bit" computer with the ability to scale to 4 bits, while version 2 scaling to multiple precision using a real CARRY! It's a small machine - "almost" a "laptop". Right now I'm collecting parts - specifically looking for the two paper tape readers (solenoid operated - not motor driven - so if anyone out there has one or two of these...) For a reference to Simon, see the thirteen part series in Radio Electronics magazine (US publication) from October 1950 through October 1951. "Constructing Electronic Brains" by Edmund C. Berkeley and Robert A. Jensen. There was also a cover article in Scientific American around that time - sorry I don't have the issue handy with an overview of the project. Anyway, tell me your stories. Gary From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 3 13:38:01 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: <13392841655.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: Message-ID: >[Simulators count!] > >Hmm... By that time e10 should be winning! I just checked in the halfword >instructions, so I'm 22% finished. Of Course, I wouldn't be able to run >al the >way out to CA to show it of... *mumblemumbleswearingmumble*... >------- The name you've chosen is frightening in it's parallels. I really hope this will run on UNIX or VMS and not require a Win&^%^&% virus! Other than that, it sounds very cool. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From go at ao.com Sat Oct 3 12:47:51 1998 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <199810031727.KAA27650@office.ao.com> References: Message-ID: <199810031748.KAA27865@office.ao.com> Funny about "synchronicity." I should have pulled my email for yesterday - I would have seen the VCF "homebrew" item. I'm not trying to "scoop" Sam - I would just like to hear about any and all projects past or underway. Gary At 10:27 AM 10/3/98 -0700, you wrote: >I hesitate to ask this question, since it may elicit some "religious" >responses as well as the intended ones... > >I've been lurking on this group for quite a while, feeding my habit >with great stories of old machine rescues and resurrections. It's >great to hear of the machines folks have in their collections >or that are found and restore to operable condition. But I'm posing >a different question for the list: are there any "real home brew" >projects underway or that have been completed in the past? And to >keep it on topic, I suppose I should confine my question to home >brew computers that were started more than ten years ago or that use >technology more than ten years old. > ...snip > >Gary > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Oct 3 12:58:27 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13392871142.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Really hope e10 runs under UNIX and not MS-DOG...] Don't worry. It's a straight-C program now, you can compile it on anything you can get GCC for, I'm coding for Linux, but I think it'll compile on VMS... Hang on... Ahhh, my VAX is broken at the moment/ I'll try this later. ------- From sethm at loomcom.com Sat Oct 3 13:13:08 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sethm@loomcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <199810031727.KAA27650@office.ao.com> from "Gary Oliver" at Oct 3, 98 10:27:32 am Message-ID: <199810031813.LAA08477@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1604 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981003/ddf3a0e2/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 3 14:23:47 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >There is a product called Catweasel which is available for the Amiga and PC >(ISA card). This is a floppy disk controller which is capable of reading >and/or >writing many disk formats. > >According to a magazine article that I have in front of me, the ISA version >currently supports (amongst others) Amiga DD & HD, Apple II, Mac 400K & 800K, >Commodore 1541 & 1571. I don't know whether reading Mac 400K & 800K disks >requires a non-standard type of 3.5" drive or not. It requires a standard HD 3.5" or 5.25" if the PC version is anything like the Amiga version. On the Amiga it's real selling point is adding HD 3.5" floppies to your system. >PC software support is apparently not too good at the moment, meaning that you >will have to write your own code for more exotic disk formats. The supplied >MS-DOS programs require a 486 for no good reason. A Linux driver is supplied, >but this is object code only, not source. (IMO trying to keep the software >that >accesses the card private like this is a really silly thing to do.) The sad fact is that the support on the Amiga is even worse. From what one of the creators told me when I wrote him trying to figure out how to read all the different formats they claim to be able to read, the drivers have never been written for the Amiga, dispite the claim it can read and write them. He said the PC version has the software necessary to create Emulator Images. >Anyway, the URL given was http://www.jshoenfeld.com/eindex.html I just tried and got told there was no DNS entry. Why is it that in Netscape 4.5 anything you do is likely to dump you at the Netscape web site. Coupled with all the GARBAGE they've added, and the fact that the 4.5PR1 is time limited! It's a FREE program, give me a break why do a time limit! Since the blasted program dumped me there I decided to try to download a newer version. I get to the download page and it's in Norweigen or something. If IE wasn't so "Jittery" I'd consider actually using it. What ever happened to quality products! The only good thing about Netscape 4.5PR1 is it's the most stable version of Netscape I've run and it still crashes! If someone would write a quality browser for the Mac I'd pay good money for it! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 3 14:56:11 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: <13392871142.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: Message-ID: >[Really hope e10 runs under UNIX and not MS-DOG...] > >Don't worry. It's a straight-C program now, you can compile it on anything >you can get GCC for, I'm coding for Linux, but I think it'll compile >on VMS... Hang on... > > >Ahhh, my VAX is broken at the moment/ I'll try this later. >------- Hey, as long as it works on Linux that's all that matters :^) I still haven't gotten a VMS version of the PDP-11 emulator running on my VAX. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 3 15:04:11 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: BA123 Power Supplies Message-ID: If it isn't one problem it's another. Last night I left the PDP-11/23+ (still haven't gotten it to work with a /73 CPU board) running for about 4 hours to see how it handled being left on. The only thing running was "show mem" on the console since I was working on some other stuff. Much to my terror/irritation, about 10pm I noticed a buzzing or sparking sound. I quickly moved it away from the sofa, and started investigating. It sounds as if something in the area where you've got the breaker and the powercord plugs in is 'arcing and sparking'. I've got to take off in a little while, but I plan on looking into this later this afternoon or tonite. Unfortunatly I don't have any docs on the BA123 (just the BA23), so will be having a fun time figuring out how to get it apart. Does this problem sound familiar to anyone, and does anyone have any suggestions? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 3 15:51:05 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? Message-ID: <981003165105.c3@trailing-edge.com> >hard to come by these days, but how about modern equivalents? I think >that's the lowest level I'll personally go, although it would be really >fun to build a 4-bit computer out of transistors, anything more complex >is probably really difficult. Why not go for a bit-serial (aka 1-bit) CPU? It's an extremely classic design, and is certainly the way to go to minimize total transistor count. >I've got some plans of designing a computer this year. I'll probably >get my feet wet with a simple 4-bit design, but I'd like to do a 12-bit >computer (since my "inspiration" is a PDP-8). The PDP-8/S is a -8 done in a bit-serial implementation. 78 microseconds for some instructions! If you don't mind making about a 15-year advance in the electronics you'll be using, you might also seriously consider making a CPU via the state machine route, using an EPROM and some counters. All math and logic operations can very easily be done via table look-up in the EPROM. This is a rather common assignment in lower-level computer engineering courses, as it's something that can be easily wire-wrapped in an afternoon or two, and it is extremely easy to try new microcode revisions. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 3 12:35:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:02 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Oct 2, 98 11:16:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1073 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981003/59452ae7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 3 12:52:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <85256692.00400EDB.00@fsunotes2.ferris.edu> from "Aaron_J_Hayden@student.ferris.edu" at Oct 3, 98 07:39:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1099 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981003/37f27303/attachment.ksh From dburrows at netpath.net Sat Oct 3 17:12:41 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: BA123 Power Supplies Message-ID: <00ce01bdef1b$39db49f0$a60b0b0b@p166> I have some complete BA123 supplies here. I also have 4 BA123 chassis that are on my trailer that is heading for the scrap dealer. The ones on the trailer have been outside for a while but you can have anything you want from them. I also have numerous BA23 chassis inside - just let me know what fried. Dan Burrows dburrows@netpath.net -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, October 03, 1998 3:04 PM Subject: BA123 Power Supplies If it isn't one problem it's another. Last night I left the PDP-11/23+ (still haven't gotten it to work with a /73 CPU board) running for about 4 hours to see how it handled being left on. The only thing running was "show mem" on the console since I was working on some other stuff. Much to my terror/irritation, about 10pm I noticed a buzzing or sparking sound. I quickly moved it away from the sofa, and started investigating. It sounds as if something in the area where you've got the breaker and the powercord plugs in is 'arcing and sparking'. I've got to take off in a little while, but I plan on looking into this later this afternoon or tonite. Unfortunatly I don't have any docs on the BA123 (just the BA23), so will be having a fun time figuring out how to get it apart. Does this problem sound familiar to anyone, and does anyone have any suggestions? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 3 14:01:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <199810031352.JAA13214@crobin.home.org> from "John Ruschmeyer" at Oct 3, 98 09:52:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 256 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981003/581780f3/attachment.ksh From sethm at loomcom.com Sat Oct 3 17:14:14 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sethm@loomcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <981003165105.c3@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@timaxp.trailing-edge.com" at Oct 3, 98 04:51:05 pm Message-ID: <199810032214.PAA09447@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1419 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981003/3e8721dd/attachment.ksh From dburrows at netpath.net Sat Oct 3 17:18:59 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: pdp11/44 free to good home in TX Message-ID: <012d01bdef1c$79a76c20$a60b0b0b@p166> I was sort of interested but the shipping cost Vs what I have on hand was a debate. I see by a recent posting he has had several offers. If he had some unusual peripherals I would not have hesitated. Thanks Dan -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, October 03, 1998 1:08 AM Subject: FW: pdp11/44 free to good home in TX My God... as little as six months ago, 11/44's seemed rare. Now it seems like they're coming out of the woodwork! Another free system over in Texas. Contact the fellow directly if interested... -=-=- -=-=- On 2 Oct 1998 02:01:12 GMT, in alt.sys.pdp11 you wrote: >>From: "Eric" >>Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 >>Subject: pdp11/44 free to good home in TX >>Date: 2 Oct 1998 02:01:12 GMT >>Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here >>Lines: 13 >>Message-ID: <01bdeda9$0467a840$22a442c6@moonpie.citx.com> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.66.164.34 >>X-Trace: 907293672 0R4SAZH0CA422C642C usenet54.supernews.com >>X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 >>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!spamkiller1.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!199.60.2 29.5!newsfeed.direct.ca!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail >> >>11/44 CPU >>TS11 tape drive >>(2) RK07 disk units >>many rk07 packs >>decwriterII >>vt100 terminal >>manuals, service history >>unit operational at de-installation >>deinstalled from a school >> >>30 days and it's going to the metal scrapyard, would rather see her have a >>good home. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) jps [dot] net Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From go at ao.com Sat Oct 3 18:04:32 1998 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <199810032214.PAA09447@loomcom.com> References: <981003165105.c3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199810032304.QAA30237@office.ao.com> Actually, I've found that, after you learn the basics of boolean logic (and / or / invert) and play around with some of the basic TTL or CMOS Ic's implementing those logic elements, one of the best places to get "instruction" was to look through the "application notes" put out by the various IC manufacturers. Unfortunately, today's ICs are so complex, that application notes are little more than "how to wire the super-whiz-bang-thingy to a 8051 or pentium" so they aren't much good for learning. Check your local used book stores for old data books - I see them all the time around here - but we are in a college town... The application notes are sometimes in the back of these books and sometimes printed as separate volumes. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) those are collectable, too... When I started to design my own stuff, one of the first things I found essential was an oscilloscope. A good used, relatively inexpensive, Tek or HP dual-trace, triggered-sweep, 60 MHz (or so) scope will cost you around 100 to 200 US dollars. I even purchased a Tek 453 on eBay (or is that eOverPay?) for about $150 and it was in near perfect condition. If you don't mind "bulky" and can make it to a "ham fair" or "radio rally", look for some of the older Tek "boat anchors" such as the 535 or 545 or the newer, lighter 56x series (early to mid 60s.) They usually run somewhere around 20 to 50 US dollars over here. They are slower (10 to 30 MHz is common) but that may not be important for learning or restoring old "classics." Unfortunately, these "classics" are quite heavy, so long-distance shipment usually increases the cost beyond their value. I used a 535 (and later a 545) to help keep an old home-brew computer running at Oregon State (many years ago.) The basic machine clock was around 22 MHz (seems fast for 1971, doesn't it?) but it was a "serial" machine so it really had only a 100 micro-second word time. In any case, a scope is SO MUCH better than a logic probe. But speaking of logic probes... Although not a "boat anchor" or "classic", Radio Shack had (do they still sell them?) a little "logic probe oscilloscope" for about 100 US$. Cute little thing had a 20 by 30 pixel (approximate) screen built in to a hand-help box about the size of a normal logic probe. Basically it was a 5 MHz triggered-sweep storage scope. Comes with a cable and software to plug into a IBM compatible for a "real" display. Best "logic probe" I ever purchased. But I still prefer to use "classic" scopes to work on "classic" computers... Gary At 03:14 PM 10/3/98 -0700, you wrote: >> >> >hard to come by these days, but how about modern equivalents? I think >> >that's the lowest level I'll personally go, although it would be really >> >fun to build a 4-bit computer out of transistors, anything more complex >> >is probably really difficult. >> >> Why not go for a bit-serial (aka 1-bit) CPU? It's an extremely classic >> design, and is certainly the way to go to minimize total transistor >> count. > >OK, here's a good question for everyone! > >Does anyone have really good references on learning basic computer >design and implementation? To put things in perspective, right now >I'm at a "Getting Started in Electronics" and "Introduction to Digital >Electronics" Radio Shack level -- please hold back your laughter :) >I've just always been a software guy all my life. I've never taken >an EE course, but I'm definitely eager to learn, as it would have >tremendous benefits in my classic computing hobby. > >At least I do have a nice Fluke 79-III multimeter and a Weller >temperature-controlled soldering iron, so I've got a good start. >And many of the posts on this list have been invaluable -- especially >the soldering/desoldering tips that were passed on ;) > >If anyone has any good tips for books that are still available, I'd >be tremendously appreciative. > >-Seth >-- >"The crux of the biscuit Seth J. Morabito > is the apostrophe." - Frank Zappa sethm@loomcom.com > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Oct 3 18:09:49 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? Message-ID: <199810032309.AA04532@world.std.com> < and peripherals together to make a (shudder) PC. I'm talking about < *REAL* iron (or aluminum.) Starting from basic relay, transistor, or I Lessee, I do much of my own bent metal, cases cost! I've been building hardware for far to many years to count. < (SSI or MSI only!) and rolling a machine the "hard way." Recreations o Even the 8008 was considerd LSI! < old machines (i.e. building your own PDP-1) would make a very < interesting discussions. Difficult as well as where down one get core these days? I'd love to build a PDP-8 from the ground up using current (nonFPGA) tech. For the moment I've building up a z80/s100 crate and doing a z280s/CPM project for my self. Allison From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Oct 3 14:23:34 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199810032326.TAA28103@smtp.interlog.com> On 3 Oct 98 at 16:09, Mark wrote: > On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 Max Eskin wrote: > >Is there a device that would allow _any_ disk, independently of > >format, including Apple ][ disks, to be read? I know Teledisk can do > >this for all conventional formats, but not Apple disks. It would be > >nice to connect one of these and read the disk image into a file. > >The main reason why I ask is for rescuing messed up floppies... > > There is a product called Catweasel which is available for the Amiga and PC > (ISA card). This is a floppy disk controller which is capable of reading and/or > writing many disk formats. > > According to a magazine article that I have in front of me, the ISA version > currently supports (amongst others) Amiga DD & HD, Apple II, Mac 400K & 800K, > Commodore 1541 & 1571. I don't know whether reading Mac 400K & 800K disks > requires a non-standard type of 3.5" drive or not. > > PC software support is apparently not too good at the moment, meaning that you > will have to write your own code for more exotic disk formats. The supplied > MS-DOS programs require a 486 for no good reason. A Linux driver is supplied, > but this is object code only, not source. (IMO trying to keep the software that > accesses the card private like this is a really silly thing to do.) > > Anyway, the URL given was http://www.jshoenfeld.com/eindex.html > While Catweasel purportedly works well on an Amiga, from all reports including the info on it's home page ,the PC version leaves much to be desired. Oh well it's a start. Something for PCs like Sydecs 22 disk would be lovely. > > On Thu, 1 Oct 1998 Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > >Atari ST uses DOS format in the first place. Amiga can be read on the PC by > >Amiga emulators. C64, I have no idea, but I know at least you could use a > >C128 to copy files to CP/M format. > Atari's format is based on the MSDOS but not all Atari disks can be read by DOS. PC's added an identifying header on disks which the Atari doesn't use. There are also programs that can format additional sectors to expand the disks beyond 720k. Many of the old ST Format 'zine's free disks used to be formatted with extra sectors so that they could cram more PD on disks. There was a rumor that Fastcopy Pro could format the Rainbow quaddensity 5 1/4 SS disks. Haven't tried it since I don't yet have a 5 1/4 hooked up to my ST. FCpro could also format different step-rates and additional sectors as well as SS and DS disks. > Amiga disks cannot be read by normal PC disk controllers. > When I get a Workbench disk for my newly acquired Amiga 2000 I'm going to see if FCpro will copy the Amiga 880k format. Would be a solution to transfer problems from the net. Now if I could only find an easy way around the bastard Mac Plus and earlier 800k format. > You can make a cable to hook up a 1541 disk drive to a PC or Amiga and read > files or disk images using this. > I take it you're referring to the X1541 cable. I wasn't aware that it could be used with Amigas. That looks promising. > > -- Mark > ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From go at ao.com Sat Oct 3 18:27:09 1998 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <199810032309.AA04532@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810032327.QAA30390@office.ao.com> Cool! I've also harbored a secret (it's out now) desire to build a PDP-8 from scratch - and I'm talking "straight" 8 here. Transistors of the 2n2222, 2n3904/3906, etc. varieties are SO CHEAP these days (at least in quantities) that the "semiconductor" content of a straight-8 should run less around $100. It's only a "few hundred" circuit boards... However, I'm derailed by the "interconnect problem." Although each circuit board will only have a few dozen components (well, the flip-flops are a "bit" (pun intended) more complicated) the PC BOARD is going to set you back a few bucks. And then add the interconnect to the "back plane" or "panel" where the REAL logic is implemented (all that wire-wrap.) So a couple of dollars of parts on the board goes up to several dollars by the time you add the board and connection. One of my current "designs" involves using DB-25 connectors (they have become rather cheap due to volume use in the PC industry - don't know how long that will last, though) and building the back panel with lots of posts connected to the mating connector and then wire-wrapping on those posts. Better yet, using wire-wrap DB-25s on the back panel, but I haven't found a good (read 'cheap') source of wire-wrap connectors, yet. The connector on the circuit board (plug in module) will cost around 30 cents. A wire-wrap connector for the back panel costs from $3.00 to $10.00 depending on supplier and quality. At 07:09 PM 10/3/98 -0400, you wrote: > >< and peripherals together to make a (shudder) PC. I'm talking about >< *REAL* iron (or aluminum.) Starting from basic relay, transistor, or I > >Lessee, I do much of my own bent metal, cases cost! I've been building >hardware for far to many years to count. > >< (SSI or MSI only!) and rolling a machine the "hard way." Recreations o > >Even the 8008 was considerd LSI! > >< old machines (i.e. building your own PDP-1) would make a very >< interesting discussions. > >Difficult as well as where down one get core these days? > >I'd love to build a PDP-8 from the ground up using current (nonFPGA) >tech. For the moment I've building up a z80/s100 crate and doing a >z280s/CPM project for my self. > > >Allison > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 3 18:01:11 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <199810031727.KAA27650@office.ao.com> from "Gary Oliver" at Oct 3, 98 10:27:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2016 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/3a41138e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 3 18:09:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <199810031813.LAA08477@loomcom.com> from "sethm@loomcom.com" at Oct 3, 98 11:13:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1261 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/7693f8cd/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 3 18:34:51 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: FW: pdp11/44 free to good home in TX In-Reply-To: <3616b09a.470600698@smtp.wa.jps.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Bruce Lane wrote: > My God... as little as six months ago, 11/44's seemed rare. Now it > seems like they're coming out of the woodwork! I'm telling you, its the Y2K scare. You'll start to see more and more of this hardware become available as people start to panic. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 3 18:40:22 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: <13392841655.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > [Simulators count!] > > Hmm... By that time e10 should be winning! I just checked in the halfword > instructions, so I'm 22% finished. Of Course, I wouldn't be able to run al the > way out to CA to show it of... *mumblemumbleswearingmumble*... Why not? In a few more weeks I'll have dates set. Start saving your money and book your plane tickets early. You can crash at someone's house out here. You can do the whole weekend for under $100 if you hitch a ride with truckers. Start early on your way out though (at least a week in advance). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 3 18:42:17 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? Message-ID: <981003194217.d6@trailing-edge.com> >Does anyone have really good references on learning basic computer >design and implementation? To put things in perspective, right now >I'm at a "Getting Started in Electronics" and "Introduction to Digital >Electronics" Radio Shack level -- please hold back your laughter :) The classic reference would be Don Lancaster's _TTL Cookbook_, which is still being published in pretty much its original early-1970's version. For a slightly broader view of electronics - and a very solid introduction to both digital and analog techniques - you'll also want Horowitz and Hill's _The Art of Electronics_. Mr. Transistor Man, here you come! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 3 18:46:19 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <199810031727.KAA27650@office.ao.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Gary Oliver wrote: > or that are found and restore to operable condition. But I'm posing > a different question for the list: are there any "real home brew" > projects underway or that have been completed in the past? And to You'll get many affirmative answers to this. My own example is of a 19 year old in San Francisco who is building a computer based on a mechanical relay-based controller of an old elevator. He was all set to demonstrate it at the VCF but a day before he blew out his "RAM" (a bunch of SCRs) due to a fatal flaw and it became useless. Homebrewing is still going on. Its just not as prevalent any more because each year the art dies a little more. I'm hoping to help revive it with the VCF. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 3 18:56:59 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > While simulators are undoubtedly fun, I don't think they should be judged > alongside real hardware. Have 2 competitions IMHO. Right. > A few more questions - not that I am likely to be entering or even at VCF > III... > > I assume the device can be more modern than 10 years old. In other words > that machine I built last week... Yes. As long as its not just a PC you put together from swap meet parts. If its a computer or controller (or something, haven't gotten around to laying out the ground rules yet) and you built it from the chip, transistor or sand level, its admissable. > Can it use modern components? If someone is crazy enough to homebrew an > Alpha system from chips, does that count? Yes! > Does it have to be a complete machine, or will an add-on/interface for a > commercial computer count? Probably, but it would have to do something really cool! Like allow you to choose the speed on your blender from a radio-button on your computer or something. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 3 19:00:32 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? Message-ID: <981003200032.d6@trailing-edge.com> >Homebrewing is still going on. Its just not as prevalent any more because >each year the art dies a little more. I think the tales of homebrewing's demise are being a bit exaggerated. Certainly, the character of homebrewing has changed greatly over the past 20 years. It is true that some of today's tools of the trade - for example, a good PAL/GAL programmer - are more expensive than many of tools of 1975. But in real dollars, today's $800 device programmer is much cheaper than, say, an 8080A CPU, which had a street price of US$250 or so in 1975. And many folks are doing very interesting things with programmable devices. You can get into PIC programming for well under $100, and there's lots of really interesting things you can do with that. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Oct 3 19:05:35 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? Message-ID: <199810040005.AA27781@world.std.com> < Take a PIC17C42. This chip executes a respectable number of < instructions/sec out of external memory. Link it up to some EPROMs - 16 < bits wide for the PIC instruction and enough extra bits to control the < data path + rest of the homebrew processor. The PIC is not going to I did that in 1980 using a 8048, slower but the same idea. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 3 18:31:29 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <199810032214.PAA09447@loomcom.com> from "sethm@loomcom.com" at Oct 3, 98 03:14:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2489 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/4686278a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 3 18:39:11 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <199810032304.QAA30237@office.ao.com> from "Gary Oliver" at Oct 3, 98 04:04:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2158 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/fdbc7044/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 3 19:04:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 3, 98 04:46:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 600 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/783e1f3f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 3 19:13:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 3, 98 04:56:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2364 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/066465cf/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Oct 3 19:31:52 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? Message-ID: <199810040031.AA10278@world.std.com> Doing something like a straight-8 is not trivial due to the shear number of parts and interconnects needed. A ttl version is manageable. The big thing is to experiment. I've considered doing a PDP-8E design and each time I take out a fresh sheet of paper it ends up being a 16bit or even 24bit machine. a 24bit machine with the same format as an 8 as some appeal. I think the number does differ, because a)There is no practical purpose for building a CPU, just curiosity b)Parts like 2901s are not as available c)Kids are rarely going into homebrewing these days d)The dilution is making it hard to get information I'm curious why the HPCC would be interested in homebrew? Or is HPCC a sort of umbrella name for a computer club? At my school, the most calculator-loving person spends his time making a multitasking GUI OS for a TI-92, to look like Win95. I guess interests have changed. >Sometimes I think (hope???) that homebrewing is still very much alive, >it's just diluted by all the PC users out there. I suspect that years >ago, the total number of people who built CPUs from scratch is not that >different from now. > >On the other hand, I have presented a number of homebrew projects at the >HPCC (UK HP calculator user club) meetings and had next to 0 interest. So >perhaps I am one of the few remaining. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Oct 3 19:33:55 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 4, 98 01:13:12 am Message-ID: <199810040033.SAA11299@calico.litterbox.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 613 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981003/f6e1bf7b/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 3 19:33:02 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <981003200032.d6@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998 CLASSICCMP@timaxp.trailing-edge.com wrote: > I think the tales of homebrewing's demise are being a bit exaggerated. > Certainly, the character of homebrewing has changed greatly over > the past 20 years. It is true that some of today's tools of the trade - > for example, a good PAL/GAL programmer - are > more expensive than many of tools of 1975. But in real dollars, > today's $800 device programmer is much cheaper than, say, an 8080A > CPU, which had a street price of US$250 or so in 1975. Well, good. I'm sure you are right. There's just not a forum where people get together to share their stuff like there used to be (or at least I'm just not privvy to them). I'm hoping that by promoting homebrew at the VCF it will help spawn homebrew clubs again where people get together to share and learn from each other. I would love to go to something like this, but I don't think there's anything like this even in the Silicon Valley. Well, I recently learned of the Homebrew Robotics club, which I am going to definitely get involved with when I embark upon my sabbatical. But we need more of these clubs where teenagers can come to learn something fun and useful instead of just playing DOOM. I realize there are many teenagers out there already involved in electronics and such but I think there could be many more who just need a start. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From Rand-E at worldnet.att.net Sat Oct 3 19:38:56 1998 From: Rand-E at worldnet.att.net (Rand Eikelberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Computer for Sale Message-ID: <000001bdef2f$60254ac0$9137440c@113146027worldnet.att.net> Can you help me find someone interested in the original Amiga computer. I think it's the Amiga 2000 with 256K RAM. I'm open to all offers. From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Oct 3 19:37:55 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 Message-ID: <19981004003756.2822.qmail@hotmail.com> How about building an 'information appliance' toaster, like Microsoft wants you to? For purely parody purposes, of course. Maybe I'll do something like that. Maybe it will have a network card, and I'll demonstrate toaster operation with CGI scripting. And put up a toastercam. I'm not kidding, this seems interesting... > >I don't count 'Insert VGA card tab 'A' into slot 'B'' as being 'building >a computer'. When I talk about building a machine I mean from chips and >wire and hand-etched (or wire-wrapped) boards. > >> If its a computer or controller (or something, haven't gotten around to >> laying out the ground rules yet) and you built it from the chip, >> transistor or sand level, its admissable. > >I personally think that you should remember that when homebrewing was a >lot more common (or was at least a larger part of home computing), a lot >of the projects were expansion cards for the Apple ][ etc. And that there >certainly should be a category for homebrewed cards in commerical >machines. > >> > Does it have to be a complete machine, or will an add-on/interface for a >> > commercial computer count? >> >> Probably, but it would have to do something really cool! Like allow you >> to choose the speed on your blender from a radio-button on your computer >> or something. > >You mean a calculator with a colour video display and a robot arm doesn't >count? No I didn't homebrew the calculator, but everything else is >mine.... Details available from HPCC if you're mad enough to want to >build one... > >Seriously, I wasn't thinking of having the expansion cards in the same >group as totally homebrewed machines (including the CPU). But as a lot of >'classic' homebrewing was interfacing, then it should be included somehow. > >Perhaps have several categories. The ones off the top of my head are : > >Homebrew CPU - Anything where the CPU is not a standard commercial >chip/machine. Homebuilt CPUs from relays, transistors, TTL, FPGAs, etc > >Homebrew microcomputer - Using a standard CPU chip (any), make a computer >not using standard PCBs. A general purpose machine which can run user >programs, I think, though. > >Controller - a homebrew embedded control system using just about anything... > >Interface - a homebrew expansion card/interface module for a (classic?) >computer. > >Homebrew == built from chips/transistors/relays/valves. Not plugged >together from standard boards... > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 3 19:41:46 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > On the other hand, I have presented a number of homebrew projects at the > HPCC (UK HP calculator user club) meetings and had next to 0 interest. So > perhaps I am one of the few remaining. Well, that's kind of the feeling I get. I want to bring the folks who are quietly inventing cool things in their garages back out into the open. I think it would be great to revive the old Homebrew Computer Club here in the Silicon Valley. HINT: A Homebrew Computer Club reunion is currently in the embryo stage. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 3 19:45:42 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Does it have to be a complete machine, or will an add-on/interface for a > > > commercial computer count? > > > > Probably, but it would have to do something really cool! Like allow you > > to choose the speed on your blender from a radio-button on your computer > > or something. > > You mean a calculator with a colour video display and a robot arm doesn't > count? No I didn't homebrew the calculator, but everything else is > mine.... Details available from HPCC if you're mad enough to want to > build one... Those would definitely count. Good examples. > Seriously, I wasn't thinking of having the expansion cards in the same > group as totally homebrewed machines (including the CPU). But as a lot of > 'classic' homebrewing was interfacing, then it should be included somehow. Absolutely. Homebrew expansion cards are certainly within the bounds of the exhibit. But my point is, a homebrew parallel interface card is not interesting. It would have to be something that you can't just go to the local computer store to buy in order to capture the imagination of the viewers. > Perhaps have several categories. The ones off the top of my head are : > > Homebrew CPU - Anything where the CPU is not a standard commercial > chip/machine. Homebuilt CPUs from relays, transistors, TTL, FPGAs, etc Great idea! > Homebrew microcomputer - Using a standard CPU chip (any), make a computer > not using standard PCBs. A general purpose machine which can run user > programs, I think, though. Yes! > Controller - a homebrew embedded control system using just about anything... Yes! > Interface - a homebrew expansion card/interface module for a (classic?) > computer. Sure! > Homebrew == built from chips/transistors/relays/valves. Not plugged > together from standard boards... Yes! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 3 19:48:23 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: <199810040033.SAA11299@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Jim Strickland wrote: > at the risk of playing semantic games, what's the difference between taking > a chip that has everything for a given function - an ethernet - PCI interface > chip for example, and wiring it to the bus it's designed for, and buying the > board with it installed and plugging it in. A single IC can do *so* much > now it seems to me to be a very fuzzy line. Its the difference between winning 1st place in the Best Homebrew Project category and being laughed at. :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Oct 3 19:41:47 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Voltage needed Message-ID: <199810040049.UAA25929@gate.usaor.net> I have a few questions: 1) Does anyone have the voltage for the backlight on a Toshiba TLX-1342-G3B1 CGA LCD? It was pulled from a Tandy 1400HD laptop. 2) Is there any way to connect a non-Apple monitor to the RGB port on an Apple //c? It's a 15-pin connector, like a PC joystick/MIDI connector. Being a 15-pin connector, would a VGA monitor work with it? Or would it just need to be a CGA, or would I just have to get an Apple monitor? 3) I know it's pretty rare, but does anyone have an LCD panel for the //c? ThAnX, -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 3 19:51:02 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <19981004003222.16257.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > I think the number does differ, because > a)There is no practical purpose for building a CPU, just curiosity Not necessarily. What if you're trying to become the next Intel? You have to start somewhere. > c)Kids are rarely going into homebrewing these days I hope to help change this. > d)The dilution is making it hard to get information We start a little movement, people fall in behind it, it grows, and BAM!, homebrew is chic again! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Oct 3 19:55:59 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 3, 98 05:48:23 pm Message-ID: <199810040055.SAA11532@calico.litterbox.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 410 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981003/2ea951ee/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Sat Oct 3 20:00:36 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > We start a little movement, people fall in behind it, it grows, and BAM!, > homebrew is chic again! I doubt it. The homebrew/hobbyist movement had a very compelling driving force: just about the only way to get your own computer was to built it yourself. That's no longer true. But there is a pretty strong homebrew aircraft movement, and it also still makes sense for robotics. -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 3 20:08:25 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: VCF Nerd Trivia Challenge Questions & Answers Message-ID: Here are the questions & answers that were used in Nerd Trivia Challenge at the VCF this year. The three contestants did a very good job of answering 90%+ of the questions correctly. The final question had the answer displayed along with it by accident, so we had to choose the second one, which none of the contestants got. Also, one of the questions here has an incorrect answer which one of the contestants (Kip Crosby of the Computer History Association of California) corrected on the spot. I forgot which one that was. Sorry. Otherwise, every question and answer was researched thoroughly, and the Nerd Trivia Challenge committee did a great job of coming up with a good mix of questions. The intent was to come up with challenging questions that would also serve to educate the audience on computer history. Think you have what it takes to win at next year's VCF? Start boning up on your computer history and come on out and give it a try! Note: NERD in Round 1 and SUPER NERD in Round 2 designate a wagering question (i.e. like Jeopardy and Double Jeopardy). Round 1 COMPUTING PIONEERS These two guys started their company in a Silicon Valley garage too, but way before Jobs & Wozniak. William Hewlett and David Packard started Hewlett-Packard in 1938 at 367 Addison Avenue in Palo Alto, California -- Before their operating system became the de facto standard for the PC, these two early pioneers of micro- computer software founded Traf-O-Data. Paul Allen and Bill Gates -- He wrote the technical manual for the Intel 4004 processor. His publishing company was later merged with McGraw Hill. Adam Osborne -- NERD Two of the three engineers who are credited with the invention of the transistor. Dr. John Bardeen, Dr. Walter Brattain, and Dr. William Shockley -- Which German is now recognized as having invented the first stored program computer in 1937. Konrad Zuse ----- PORTABLE COMPUTING Although not the first to market a portable IBM PC compatible computer, this company is best known for it. Compaq -- This portable computer, while not the first notebook, was very popular among members of the press. Tandy Model 100 -- The only portable computer ever sold by Commodore International. The Commodore SX-64 -- This relatively unknown portable computer, which integrated the display, keyboard and storage unit into one luggable case, beat the widely regarded "first" portable by almost 5 years. THINK! IBM 5100, released 1975, included a CRT, tape drive, and featured BASIC and APL interpreters -- This computer is regarded as the first notebook computer. Epson HX-20, released November 1981 ----- ACRONYMS The "TRS" in TRS-80 stands for this. Tandy-Radio Shack -- Xerox PARC is not a place where you go to have picnics, but actually stands for this. Palo Alto Research Center -- The Sun company name is derived from this college acronym. Stanford University Network -- What does the PDP in PDP-8 and PDP-11 stand for? Programmed Data Processor -- What the "KIM" of the MOS Technologies KIM-1 single board computer stands for. "Keyboard Input Monitor" ----- LANGUAGES COMPUTERS SPEAK This language is named after a great 16th century philosopher and mathematician. Pascal -- Dr. Grace Murray Hopper was involved in the development of this still widely utilized business programming language. COBOL -- The cursor in this graphically oriented language was replaced by a "turtle". LOGO -- This language is stack based. Its name does not designate what order it came in. FORTH -- APL stands simply for this. A Programming Language ----- COMPUTERS IN THE MOVIES What computer system did the character David Lightman use in the movie War Games? IMSAI 8080 -- What palm-top computer did John Conner in Terminator 2 use to hack the bank's ATM and then later the Skynet door locks? Atari Portfolio -- What computer did Flynn use to hack into Encom in the movie Tron? An Apple /// -- The computer that was used to render the graphics in The Last Star Fighter. Cray 1 -- The computer that was used to render the graphics in Tron. PDP-10 ----- Round 2 KILLER APPS Dan Bricklin and Bob Frankson invented this killer app. VisiCalc, released December 1979 -- It usurped VisiCalc's grip on the spreadsheet market by riding on the success of the IBM PC. Lotus 123 -- This was the first in Infocom's long line of text-based adventure games. Zork -- This popular program by Broderbund allowed you to print your own greeting cards, posters and banners. Print Shop -- SUPER NERD Broderbund means this in Norwegian. "Brother bond" (the company was founded by two brothers, Doug and Gary Carlston). ----- OLD IRON The computer game "Space War" was first programmed on this old iron. DEC PDP-1 -- When it was introduced in 1976, this legendary supercomputer was the fastest computer the world had ever seen. Cray 1 -- The first English computer to implement the stored program concept. The EDSAC, completed in 1949 [Note from Sam: This was the one. The correct answer was, um, er, uh, "BABY" in Manchester...right? :) ] -- After their involvement on the ENIAC project, J. Presper Eckert and John Mauchly went on to build this early dinosaur of computing. UNIVAC, 1951 -- This system developed by IBM and derived from the SAGE project was used by the airline industry to handle reservations. SABRE (Semi-Automatic Business-Related Environment), developed for American Airlines ----- HISTORICAL UNIX Korn, Bourne and C are all versions of this. Unix command shells -- Bill Joy authored this (in)famous Unix text editor. vi -- These two programmers developed Unix on a PDP-7. Dan Thompson and David Ritchie -- What does the "BSD" in the BSD flavor of Unix stand for? Berkeley Software Distribution -- This was the first computer not manufactured by DEC that Unix was ported to. Interdata 8/32 ----- OPERATING SYSTEMS This was the first computer to feature a graphical user interface. The Xerox Alto, created in 1973 at the Xerox Palo Alto Research Center, or PARC. -- Before being acquired and modified by Microsoft for the then nascent IBM PC in 1980, MS-DOS was formerly known as this. QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System) by Seatle Computer Products. Also 86-DOS and SCP DOS -- Multiplexing Information and Computing Service is better known as this early operating system. Multics -- The policy of this operating system was "No advertising, no support, no bug fixes, payment in advance". Unix -- The first microprocessor-based computer to run Unix. The Z8000-based Onyx C8002 in 1980 ----- NERDPOURRI This first mass-marketed kit computer was named after the planet the crew of the starship Enterprise were visiting in that week's episode of Star Trek. Altair 8800 -- Apple's GUI-based predecessor to the Mac. While advanced for its time, it was extremely expensive, costing upwards of $10,000. Apple Lisa, released in 1982 -- Of the Apple ][, the Commdore PET and the TRS-80 Model 1, the computer which was not exhibited at the first West Coast Computer Faire. TRS-80 Model 1, introduced in August of 1977 -- This computer measured 12" wide by 12" high by 12" deep and was all black, except for the multi-colored logo. NeXT -- SUPER NERD The year and month the IBM PC was first introduced. August 1981 ----- FINAL QUESTION (voided due to technical foul-up :) COMPUTER INNOVATIONS Originally invented by IBM as a way to transfer microcode updates, this medium can be either hard-sectored or soft-sectored. Floppy disk - FINAL QUESTION (actual) SERIAL NUMBERS It was the serial number of the first Apple ][ off the assembly line. 2001 Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 3 20:10:07 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: <199810040055.SAA11532@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Jim Strickland wrote: > Ahh. I see. :) So if you took that same chip and built, say, an ethernet > board for an s100 bus or something equally wierd, that would qualify? Not only would that qualify (and perhaps even win), but that would be very handy for the exhibit we do one year which will entail networking all the classic hardware in the exhibit area together to form a VAN (Vintage Area Network). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 3 20:12:18 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > We start a little movement, people fall in behind it, it grows, and BAM!, > > homebrew is chic again! > > I doubt it. The homebrew/hobbyist movement had a very compelling driving > force: just about the only way to get your own computer was to built it > yourself. That's no longer true. But there is a pretty strong homebrew > aircraft movement, and it also still makes sense for robotics. Sheesh. Some people have no vision. ;) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Oct 3 20:18:30 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: VCF Nerd Trivia Challenge Questions & Answers In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 3, 98 06:08:25 pm Message-ID: <199810040118.TAA11711@calico.litterbox.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 553 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981003/067ee993/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 3 20:13:33 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <199810040031.AA10278@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199810040031.AA10278@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19981004011333.4093.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > The big thing is to experiment. I've considered doing a PDP-8E design > and each time I take out a fresh sheet of paper it ends up being a > 16bit or even 24bit machine. a 24bit machine with the same format as > an 8 as some appeal. Yes, but an 18-bit version of the PDP-8 has even more appeal, since that's what a PDP-4/7/9/15 is. More precisely, the PDP-5 and PDP-8 family architecture is a simplified version of the PDP-4/7/9/15 family architecture. If you're comfortable programming the -8, you'll love the -9 and -15. Since I've never been able to find an intact PDP-15 (the first DEC 18-bit machine to use ICs), I've thought about designing one in my copious free time. As soon as I figure out where the heck the copious free time is; I seem to have misplaced it. I've got a PDP-15 reference manual around here somewhere that I'll eventually scan and put on my web page. Robert Supnik of Digital (now Compaq) has written some excellent simulators that cover the DEC 12-bit, 16-bit (PDP-11), and 18-bit families, as well as the Data General Nova: ftp://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/sim/ Cheers, Eric From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Oct 3 20:25:11 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) (fwd) Message-ID: <199810040125.TAA11821@calico.litterbox.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1094 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981003/e2225f62/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Sat Oct 3 20:26:46 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: VCF Nerd Trivia Challenge Questions & Answers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > These two programmers developed Unix > on a PDP-7. > > Dan Thompson and David Ritchie Bzzzt! Dan and David developed Putznix on the HAL-2001. (You're thinking of Ken and Dennis.) -- Doug From william at ans.net Sat Oct 3 20:33:18 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: VCF Nerd Trivia Challenge Questions & Answers In-Reply-To: <199810040118.TAA11711@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: > A cray 1 was not, or at least not the only computer used to render the graphics > in Last Starfighter. A friend of my wife's worked for the company that DID > the graphics, and she told me once what it was, and it was NOT a Cray. I think it was an Evans & Sutherland machine. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Sat Oct 3 20:34:54 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <19981004011333.4093.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Since I've never been able to find an intact PDP-15 (the first DEC 18-bit > machine to use ICs), I've thought about designing one in my copious free time. > As soon as I figure out where the heck the copious free time is; I seem to > have misplaced it. I thought the PDP-9/L was the first 18-bitter to use ICs? Can anyone confirm or correct me? William Donzelli william@ans.net From jrice at texoma.net Sat Oct 3 21:30:24 1998 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:03 2005 Subject: Voltage needed References: <199810040049.UAA25929@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <3616DDC0.E8F4A0F8@texoma.net> according to my Tech Ref Manual for the 1400, it 100-150 ACVrms, 100 ACV typical and 150 ACV maximum. James Jason Willgruber wrote: > > I have a few questions: > > 1) > Does anyone have the voltage for the backlight on a Toshiba TLX-1342-G3B1 > CGA LCD? It was pulled from a Tandy 1400HD laptop. > > 2) > Is there any way to connect a non-Apple monitor to the RGB port on an Apple > //c? It's a 15-pin connector, like a PC joystick/MIDI connector. Being a > 15-pin connector, would a VGA monitor work with it? Or would it just need > to be a CGA, or would I just have to get an Apple monitor? > > 3) > I know it's pretty rare, but does anyone have an LCD panel for the //c? > > ThAnX, > -- > -Jason > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#-1730318 From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Oct 3 21:38:59 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > We start a little movement, people fall in behind it, it grows, and BAM!, > > homebrew is chic again! > > I doubt it. The homebrew/hobbyist movement had a very compelling driving > force: just about the only way to get your own computer was to built it > yourself. That's no longer true. But there is a pretty strong homebrew > aircraft movement, and it also still makes sense for robotics. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Speaking as degreed Enginerd, a home-brewer from childhood, and a private pilot.... when one's homemade *computer* crashes, one is at least spared the attention of the NTSB and the EyeWitness News Team... (Not that low-level windshear and "format C:*.* Y/N?" aren't about equally as scary.) Cheers John From jrice at texoma.net Sat Oct 3 21:37:39 1998 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Voltage needed References: <199810040049.UAA25929@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <3616DF73.A49620E9@texoma.net> BTW, that is 400hz AC voltage. James Jason Willgruber wrote: > > I have a few questions: > > 1) > Does anyone have the voltage for the backlight on a Toshiba TLX-1342-G3B1 > CGA LCD? It was pulled from a Tandy 1400HD laptop. > > 2) > Is there any way to connect a non-Apple monitor to the RGB port on an Apple > //c? It's a 15-pin connector, like a PC joystick/MIDI connector. Being a > 15-pin connector, would a VGA monitor work with it? Or would it just need > to be a CGA, or would I just have to get an Apple monitor? > > 3) > I know it's pretty rare, but does anyone have an LCD panel for the //c? > > ThAnX, > -- > -Jason > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#-1730318 From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Oct 3 21:43:19 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: VCF Nerd Trivia Challenge Questions & Answers In-Reply-To: <199810040118.TAA11711@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Jim Strickland wrote: > A cray 1 was not, or at least not the only computer used to render the graphics > in Last Starfighter. A friend of my wife's worked for the company that DID > the graphics, and she told me once what it was, and it was NOT a Cray. > > A Cray was used to render Tron, if memory serves, however. IIRC; the main graphics machine was a Perkin-Elmer device.. somewhere I have that description of it... they were one of the hi-thruput also-rans that dropped out via natural selection. P/E are also the folks who brought you the only-slightly-out-of-spec Hubble telescope Mirror. Cheers John From gram at cnct.com Sat Oct 3 22:00:31 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Tony Cole and the Crays References: Message-ID: <3616E4CE.7CF10718@cnct.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > > He's selling his Cray bits on Haggle (at a slight discount). I actually > got one of the Cray-1 boards second-hand. They're pretty cool, and since > I got mine indirectly, I don't feel personally repsonsible for the Cray > that gave its life for the sake of art. > http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201777875 Well, that subject line sounds like a killer name for a rock group -- then again again I've mentioned before that I'm not in my first childhood. Maybe not even my second -- I tend to drop too many bits. Memory just isn't what it was. Too much LDS in the Sixties, I guess. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Oct 3 23:22:56 1998 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: BA123 Power Supplies References: Message-ID: <3616F820.25C2D5BB@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > If it isn't one problem it's another. Last night I left the PDP-11/23+ > (still haven't gotten it to work with a /73 CPU board) running for about 4 > hours to see how it handled being left on. The only thing running was > "show mem" on the console since I was working on some other stuff. Jerome Fine replies: I agree that this is a valid way to test a "new" system. > Much to my terror/irritation, about 10pm I noticed a buzzing or sparking > sound. I quickly moved it away from the sofa, and started investigating. > It sounds as if something in the area where you've got the breaker and the > powercord plugs in is 'arcing and sparking'. I've got to take off in a > little while, but I plan on looking into this later this afternoon or > tonite. I also lost the power supply on 2 BA123s in the past, but it seems that it was the capacitors which rectify the DC output. > Unfortunatly I don't have any docs on the BA123 (just the BA23), so will be > having a fun time figuring out how to get it apart. The whole power supply comes out if you unlock 4 bolts holding the power supply in place and also disconnect the cables at the front. Opening the box is only a little more difficult. I did so without any specs. My problem is that I have neither the equipment nor the inclination to fix a power supply from either dead one from the BA123. I offered both of them before, likely for local pickup only since they are very heavy and I also don't have any boxes to package them. Is there anyone who wants a spare (but not unfixable) power supply for a BA123. I will even through in one backplane box as well, but the wheels have been removed. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict Year 2000 Solutions for Currently Running RT-11 Applications (Sources not always required) From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 4 00:39:29 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: BA123 Power Supplies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, thanks in part to advice to from Bruce Lane, I was able to find the problem with the power supply. I pulled the PS out and cleaned it up, and then cleaned up the area around it. That's when I discovered the problem, a seed pod. Yep, you heard it right, what I thought was the power supply arcing turned out to be a seed pod. It was suspended by some cobwebs and positioned to rattle rather nicely. I guess I ran it long enough last night to dislodge it from where ever it had been. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ddameron at earthlink.net Sun Oct 4 00:20:14 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? Message-ID: <199810040520.WAA21319@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> HI Gary and all, At 10:27 AM 10/3/98 -0700, you wrote: >To start things, I'd like to offer that I'm in the process of recreating >a copy of Edmund Berkeley's "Simon" computer designed and built by him >in the 50's as a demonstration "show and tell" of how a "real" computer >works. It's a collection of 100+ relays, two paper tape readers and >some blinkey lights. Version 1 was a "two bit" computer with the >ability to scale to 4 bits, while version 2 scaling to multiple precision >using a real CARRY! It's a small machine - "almost" a "laptop". Right >now I'm collecting parts - specifically looking for the two paper tape >readers (solenoid operated - not motor driven - so if anyone out there >has one or two of these...) > >For a reference to Simon, see the thirteen part series in Radio Electronics >magazine (US publication) from October 1950 through October 1951. >"Constructing Electronic Brains" by Edmund C. Berkeley and Robert A. Jensen. >There was also a cover article in Scientific American around that time - >sorry I don't have the issue handy with an overview of the project. > This sounds interesting. I will try to find the Radio Electronics articles you mentioned. Can you describe the paper tape, was it 5 bits? Maybe something else could be used to simulate it, maybe a mechanical drum or a diode matrix = rom if the number of bits isn't too large. My first "computer" project was the game of "life" using TTL logic, for example a 7490 decade counter to count the cell's neighbors as other counters moved through the 8 neighbor's x, y addresses. -Dave From ddameron at earthlink.net Sun Oct 4 00:20:17 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? Message-ID: <199810040520.WAA21356@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Hi Tim and all, At 04:51 PM 10/3/98 -0400, you wrote: >Why not go for a bit-serial (aka 1-bit) CPU? It's an extremely classic >design, and is certainly the way to go to minimize total transistor >count. Didn't Motorola make a 1-bit cmos microcomputer? Cannot remember it's part number. I remember Turning machine articles in various places. One is "The Armchair Universe" by A.K. Dewdney. It is a collection of "Computer Recreations from the pages of Scientific American Magazine". > >>I've got some plans of designing a computer this year. I'll probably >>get my feet wet with a simple 4-bit design, but I'd like to do a 12-bit >>computer (since my "inspiration" is a PDP-8). > >The PDP-8/S is a -8 done in a bit-serial implementation. 78 microseconds >for some instructions! > >If you don't mind making about a 15-year advance in the electronics >you'll be using, you might also seriously consider making a CPU via the >state machine route, using an EPROM and some counters. All math and logic >operations can very easily be done via table look-up in the EPROM. This >is a rather common assignment in lower-level computer engineering courses, >as it's something that can be easily wire-wrapped in an afternoon or two, >and it is extremely easy to try new microcode revisions. Do you recommend any texts that did a neat state machine computer with a EPROM? This sounds like fun, but would like to see some examples of what people actually did first to help start a design. -Dave > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 > 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 > > From sethm at loomcom.com Sun Oct 4 00:16:34 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sethm@loomcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: HOMEBREW mailing list Message-ID: <199810040516.WAA10744@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1206 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981003/f81b1c8c/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Sun Oct 4 00:36:24 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Back e-mail files References: <009601bdea11$4fc50ee0$0bf42399@mainoffice> Message-ID: <36170958.680AD04B@cnct.com> Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > > Could someone please cc: me on the list files #539 to #546. I had another > run-in with installing Windows NT5 Beta, so I lost most of my C: drive, > including my e-mail files. > > Thanks in advance! > > Rich Cini/WUGNET > - ClubWin!/CW7 > - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > - Collector of "classic" computers > <========= reply separator ==========> If you haven't had a viable response, I've got most of the stuff saved. I don't get the digest version -- you'll have to tell me the start and end dates and you'll get some dupes at the edges. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Oct 4 00:35:29 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981003223529.0300fb58@agora.rdrop.com> At 08:00 PM 10/3/98 -0500, Doug wrote: >On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > >> We start a little movement, people fall in behind it, it grows, and BAM!, >> homebrew is chic again! > >I doubt it. The homebrew/hobbyist movement had a very compelling driving >force: just about the only way to get your own computer was to built it >yourself. That's no longer true. But there is a pretty strong homebrew >aircraft movement, and it also still makes sense for robotics. Do remember however, to a large extent a 'robot' is just a computer on wheels with some very unusual peripherals... B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Oct 4 00:41:15 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: BA123 Power Supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981003224115.0372d114@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:39 PM 10/3/98 -0800, Zane wrote: >Well, thanks in part to advice to from Bruce Lane, I was able to find the >problem with the power supply. I pulled the PS out and cleaned it up, and >then cleaned up the area around it. That's when I discovered the problem, >a seed pod. > >Yep, you heard it right, what I thought was the power supply arcing turned >out to be a seed pod. It was suspended by some cobwebs and positioned to >rattle rather nicely. I guess I ran it long enough last night to dislodge >it from where ever it had been. Don't go to sleep near it! Thats when 'they' take over your body and clone you!! (...why, yes! I am watching old sci-fi flicks while writing this. Why do you ask?) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From go at ao.com Sun Oct 4 01:22:32 1998 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <199810040520.WAA21319@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <199810040622.XAA01093@office.ao.com> The dual paper tape readers were used to provide an "instruction" and "data" stream. They were both five level (bit) devices. If you have problems locating the Brains series, reprints are available from the Charles Babbage Institute (CBI) at http://www.cbi.umn.edu. I don't think they have their document index online - it's been a while since I looked - but a question or two to their web admin person found the answers I wanted and got me sufficient info to order the reprints. It's a worthy organization and they deserve to be supported through purchases of reprints and their other literature. My efforts to locate a pair of readers is causing me to look at other (more current) technologies such as possibly a solid state memory. In order to make it changeable in "real time" I'm considering a plug board (using a diode array as you surmised.) Still "retro" enough to look reasonable? In Berkeley's design, he included the specific info for obtaining the readers from the manufacturer (Western Union, if I recall) but they have long since stopped making such anachronisms. And my diligent scouring of electronic flea markets, ham fairs, and the like do not turn up much. Gary At 10:20 PM 10/3/98 -0700, you wrote: >HI Gary and all, >At 10:27 AM 10/3/98 -0700, you wrote: > >>To start things, I'd like to offer that I'm in the process of recreating >>a copy of Edmund Berkeley's "Simon" computer designed and built by him >>in the 50's as a demonstration "show and tell" of how a "real" computer >>works. It's a collection of 100+ relays, two paper tape readers and >>some blinkey lights. Version 1 was a "two bit" computer with the >>ability to scale to 4 bits, while version 2 scaling to multiple precision >>using a real CARRY! It's a small machine - "almost" a "laptop". Right >>now I'm collecting parts - specifically looking for the two paper tape >>readers (solenoid operated - not motor driven - so if anyone out there >>has one or two of these...) >> >>For a reference to Simon, see the thirteen part series in Radio Electronics >>magazine (US publication) from October 1950 through October 1951. >>"Constructing Electronic Brains" by Edmund C. Berkeley and Robert A. Jensen. >>There was also a cover article in Scientific American around that time - >>sorry I don't have the issue handy with an overview of the project. >> > >This sounds interesting. I will try to find the Radio Electronics articles >you mentioned. Can you describe the paper tape, was it 5 bits? Maybe >something else >could be used to simulate it, maybe a mechanical drum or a diode matrix = >rom if the number of bits isn't too large. > >My first "computer" project was the game of "life" using TTL logic, for >example a 7490 decade counter to count the cell's neighbors as other >counters moved through the 8 neighbor's x, y addresses. > >-Dave > From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 4 02:03:22 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: VCF Nerd Trivia Challenge Questions & Answers In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Sat, 3 Oct 1998 18:08:25 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981004070322.5045.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Apple Lisa, released in 1982 Bzzzt! 1983. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 4 02:25:49 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <199810040520.WAA21356@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> (message from dave dameron on Sat, 3 Oct 1998 22:20:17 -0700 (PDT)) References: <199810040520.WAA21356@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <19981004072549.5130.qmail@brouhaha.com> dave dameron wrote: > Didn't Motorola make a 1-bit cmos microcomputer? Cannot remember it's part > number. Yes, the MC14500B CMOS Industrial Control Unit. (not to be confused with the MC145000, which is an LCD controller). It was intended for simple relay-logic replacement and the like. You can get a PDF data sheet from http://mot2.mot-sps.com/books/html/dl131_index.html Someone had a homebrew machine based on this chip in their display at VCF; they even had the manuals on hand. I didn't get the name though :-( From yowza at yowza.com Sun Oct 4 02:52:14 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Convergent Technologies workSlate In-Reply-To: <19981004072549.5130.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Does anybody happen to have docs, peripherals, software, or a spare battery cover for a workSlate? I can offer a brand-spanky-new leatherette workSlate pouch in trade (and cash if needed). Copies are fine. -- Doug From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 4 02:45:57 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Tron (was Re: VCF Nerd Trivia Challenge Questions & Answers) In-Reply-To: <199810040118.TAA11711@calico.litterbox.com> (message from Jim Strickland on Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:18:30 -0600 (MDT)) References: <199810040118.TAA11711@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <19981004074557.5245.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jim Strickland wrote: > A Cray was used to render Tron, if memory serves, however. No, the Foonly F-1, a DECsystem-10 clone. Someone claimed that it was listed in the credits, but I just watched the credits and didn't see it. What I did find that I hadn't noticed before was acknowledgements for Ed Rotberg and also for Federal Screw Works. And I knew that Tron starred Bruce Boxleitner (later of Babylon 5 fame), but I didn't realize that Peter Jurasik was in it as well. 5 bonus points to anyone who explains who Ed is, and what FSW was famous for. Eric From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 4 03:01:52 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: VCF Nerd Trivia Challenge Questions & Answers In-Reply-To: <199810040118.TAA11711@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Jim Strickland wrote: > A cray 1 was not, or at least not the only computer used to render the > graphics in Last Starfighter. A friend of my wife's worked for the > company that DID the graphics, and she told me once what it was, and it > was NOT a Cray. Can you find out what the computer actually was then? > A Cray was used to render Tron, if memory serves, however. According to our research, it was a PDP-10 (see the next question after). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 4 03:04:25 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199810040125.TAA11821@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Jim Strickland wrote: > > > Hi. I subscribe to CLASSICCMP and this discussion came up. You mentioned > > > once that a company you'd worked for did the graphics for Last Starfighter, > > > so I was wondering if you knew what kind of computer they were done on. > > > > > Yup. They were done on a Ramtek 2020, with the images stored and > > manipulated using a VAX mainframe. There were a number of things > > that people thought were models which were really images done with > > the Ramtek. > > > > As I understand it, the 2020 was capable of doing certain kinds of > > transforms on the images, but that sometimes the VAX was used for > > other kinds of transforms, and then the images piped back to the > > 2020 for final display/debugging before going to film. Ok, cool. Noted. None of the contestants came up with that answer either, so we're in the clear (no need for a recall, whew!) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 4 03:05:19 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: VCF Nerd Trivia Challenge Questions & Answers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > These two programmers developed Unix > > on a PDP-7. > > > > Dan Thompson and David Ritchie > > Bzzzt! Dan and David developed Putznix on the HAL-2001. (You're thinking > of Ken and Dennis.) Ok, who planted that answer? :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 4 03:09:14 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: VCF Nerd Trivia Challenge Questions & Answers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, John Lawson wrote: > IIRC; the main graphics machine was a Perkin-Elmer device.. > somewhere I have that description of it... they were one of the > hi-thruput also-rans that dropped out via natural selection. P/E are > also the folks who brought you the only-slightly-out-of-spec Hubble > telescope Mirror. I would have to believe Jim's friend since she seemed to be involved somewhat. Unless you come up with some documentation that shows otherwise, or shows that a P&E was also involved somehow. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 4 03:20:44 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <19981004072549.5130.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 4 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > Someone had a homebrew machine based on this chip in their display at > VCF; they even had the manuals on hand. I didn't get the name though :-( Who's display? What section of the exhibition? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From ecloud at goodnet.com Sun Oct 4 03:59:31 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Convergent Technologies workSlate In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Oct 4, 98 02:52:14 am Message-ID: <199810040859.BAA16473@goodnet.com> > Does anybody happen to have docs, peripherals, software, or a spare > battery cover for a workSlate? I can offer a brand-spanky-new leatherette > workSlate pouch in trade (and cash if needed). Copies are fine. No, but I'm curious what is a workSlate? -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * electronics * packet radio * Gravis Ultrasound * quantize the universe * From gram at cnct.com Sun Oct 4 04:01:40 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: VCF Nerd Trivia Challenge Questions & Answers References: Message-ID: <36173974.A8A03484@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > This portable computer, while not the > first notebook, was very popular among > members of the press. > > Tandy Model 100 No. It was the TRS-80 Model 100. The 102 and 200 were called "Tandy", but all four of my Model 100s are labeled TRS-80. It was later that year the company got ashamed of its initials. And the following year that they gave them up with the ill-remembered (by employees even more than customers) Tandy 1200HD, the first computer Tandy had no hand in the design of -- it was a Tandon "100%" XT-clone, and over half of them had their motherboards replaced under warrantee -- which was charged to the manager of the store that was unlucky enough to sell it. But it _was_ the first machine that was labeled "Tandy", as though "Radio Shack" didn't exist. > -- > > The Sun company name is derived from > this college acronym. > > Stanford University Network Is this from Bill Joy? Is he trying to make sure that somebody else can be blaimed? Why would a bunch of guys who'd been doing too much drugs at Berkley (it's obvious when you look at NIS) name their company after Stanford? Hell, even guys from Stanford don't name their companies after the school -- the closest I can think is Cromemco, founded by 3? guys who hung out in the Crowder Memorial building, I think it was a dormitory when they were there. > ----- > > LANGUAGES COMPUTERS SPEAK > > This language is named after a great > 16th century philosopher and > mathematician. > > Pascal 17th Century. 1623-1662. By the time he was my age, he'd been dead four years. This doesn't make me feel good, he was a bit of an inspiration in school. - > Korn, Bourne and C are all versions of > this. > > Unix command shells Technically, they are all _examples_ of this, not versions. Especially since there are _versions_ of each that work under MS-DOS (for instance). - > > This first mass-marketed kit computer > was named after the planet the crew of > the starship Enterprise were visiting > in that week's episode of Star Trek. > > Altair 8800 That _week's_ episode? Star Trek was _daily_ in most markets in that part of the 70s (well, most markets, far into the 80s as well though after a while it got cheaper time slots). - > Of the Apple ][, the Commdore PET and > the TRS-80 Model 1, the computer which > was not exhibited at the first West > Coast Computer Faire. > > TRS-80 Model 1, introduced in August > of 1977 That's because Tandy didn't announce the product before they could actually manufacture it -- at the August 3rd 1977 announcement, there were 5,000 built, based on the idea if they didn't sell, there were 5,000 stores to use them for _something_. Apple and Commodore advertised heavily from the beginning of the year and produced occasional evaluation and demonstration units. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 4 04:06:07 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: VCF Nerd Trivia Challenge Questions & Answers In-Reply-To: <36173974.A8A03484@cnct.com> (message from Ward Donald Griffiths III on Sun, 04 Oct 1998 05:01:40 -0400) References: <36173974.A8A03484@cnct.com> Message-ID: <19981004090607.5476.qmail@brouhaha.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > The Sun company name is derived from > > this college acronym. > > > > Stanford University Network > > Is this from Bill Joy? Is he trying to make sure that > somebody else can be blaimed? Why would a bunch of guys > who'd been doing too much drugs at Berkley (it's obvious > when you look at NIS) name their company after Stanford? > Hell, even guys from Stanford don't name their companies > after the school -- the closest I can think is Cromemco, > founded by 3? guys who hung out in the Crowder Memorial > building, I think it was a dormitory when they were there. The computer was designed at Stanford, and the name "Stanford University Network" came about long before they decided to commercialize it. They started with BSD 4.1, and each version of SunOS was an improvement over its successor. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Oct 4 04:13:33 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 4, 98 01:20:44 am Message-ID: <199810040913.CAA11076@saul1.u.washington.edu> > > Someone had a homebrew machine based on this chip in their display at > > VCF; they even had the manuals on hand. I didn't get the name though :-( > > Who's display? What section of the exhibition? I think it was on the right-hand side of the "flea market" half of the room, possibly on the same table with the Digtal Group machine? The computer was just a little box, maybe about the size of a plastic box I have (which holds 4x6" index cards) or a little bigger. The manuals I saw were copies of the data sheets. -- Derek From yowza at yowza.com Sun Oct 4 04:15:37 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Convergent Technologies workSlate In-Reply-To: <199810040859.BAA16473@goodnet.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > No, but I'm curious what is a workSlate? You're familiar with the TRS-80 Model 100? Imagine something with about the same form-factor, built the same year, but with built-in spreadsheet, microcassette tape drive, speaker phone, and voice annotation! It was also colored black and looked much cooler than the TRS-80 thing. Unfortunately, it was priced at $2K (I've seen somebody list a price of $1195, and I'm really not sure which is correct), so it didn't sell well. CT had originally planned to produce 100,000 of them in the first year. I think they ended up selling about 5000, and auctioning about 7000 of them after they killed the product. Some of the brains behind CT and GRiD later formed a new start-up (and I can't remember the name) which prototyped a very sophisticated modular portable that was never produced. CT also designed machines such as the AT&T 7300 and those cute modular CTOS boxes for Unisys/Burroughs/Bull. -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Sun Oct 4 04:22:24 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <199810040913.CAA11076@saul1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > I think it was on the right-hand side of the "flea market" half of the room, > possibly on the same table with the Digtal Group machine? The computer was > just a little box, maybe about the size of a plastic box I have (which holds > 4x6" index cards) or a little bigger. The manuals I saw were copies of the > data sheets. If it was on the same table as the Digital Group Z80, then that was Hal Layer's table (although it was Chuck McManis' Z80). -- Doug From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Oct 4 05:13:11 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Convergent Technologies workSlate In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Oct 4, 98 04:15:37 am Message-ID: <199810041013.DAA03298@saul1.u.washington.edu> > You're familiar with the TRS-80 Model 100? Imagine something with about > the same form-factor, built the same year, but with built-in spreadsheet, > microcassette tape drive, speaker phone, and voice annotation! It was > also colored black and looked much cooler than the TRS-80 thing. Didn't it use the spreadsheet as the metaphor for the entire system and interface? Sorry, but I think that's not always an appropriate metaphor. The Model 100 OTOH is more structured around word processing, I'd say. This could be another reason for the 100's popularity and the workSlate's lack of popularity. -- Derek From kyrrin at jps.net Sun Oct 4 07:00:43 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: BA123 Power Supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981004050043.00933aa0@mail.jps.net> At 09:39 PM 10/3/98 -0800, you wrote: >Well, thanks in part to advice to from Bruce Lane, I was able to find the >problem with the power supply. I pulled the PS out and cleaned it up, and >then cleaned up the area around it. That's when I discovered the problem, >a seed pod. Heh... can I call 'em or can I call 'em? ;-) Those supplies are actually pretty durable if they've had the ECO applied. That's why I suspected the mechanical debris issue. Any clue as to what kind of seed it was? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From marvin at rain.org Sun Oct 4 07:52:07 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: A Recent Rescue References: <199810032326.TAA28103@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <36176F77.C0C35B2D@rain.org> I spent today traveling up the state to pick up some stuff that was going out to be recycled or junked. Some of you who were at the VCF may remember someone came to the VCF with some S-100 stuff, saw that I was the only one (at that time) with S-100 stuff and gave it to me. I sold some of it for him, but in the ensuing conversation, it turned out a friend of his had died, and his family was sending all his old magazines, etc. to the recycler. *FORTUNATELY* when I was talking to him, I indicated an interest in the older stuff, and he went back to see what he could salvage before it hit the recycler. Way too much stuff to mention (and I haven't gone through it yet, but one of the things I was really happy to get were volumes I through VIII of the Conference Proceedings for the West Coast Computer Faires. Included was also a number of the Computer Faire programs starting with the second, and going up to the 15th or so (and missing some in between.) Also included were early Popular Electronics (I'm told missing the Jan/Feb 75 issues), early Bytes, a CREI Logic trainer and manuals, Heathkit H19, Heathkit H89A, most of the Heathkit manuals, etc., etc., etc. Total volume was 25 cubic feet. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Oct 4 08:03:33 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > A "Catweasel" board can do a lot of the formats including Apple. It's > available in two flavors, IBM PC, and Amiga. The big problem with the one > I've got for one of my Amiga's is the lack of software to actually do > this!!! How many formats do you have software for? I'm interested because I was thinking of getting a Catweasel board for my Amiga. But early in the summer, I decided instead to try to make the best of my A1020. Unfortunately (?), I found a job only one day after I wrote my first line of code, which only managed to turn the drive motor on and off. :) I probably wouldn't have got very far, but my first test would have been a raw read of every track, dumped to a file. An attempt at a Teledisk-type thing. Figuring out the disk formats themselves would have been a lot of work. I wanted eventually to have something that would be a combination of Teledisk and 22disk, but able to do GCR formats as well. At any rate, Paula can access a lot of formats. There was software that came with the Apple2000 emulator which can read Apple ][ disks into .dsk images, and according to the one of the old Amiga manuals, software exists that will write to that format as well (I just haven't located a copy). With a tweak to the drive's RPM, the file misc/emu/1541.lha on Aminet will read 1541 disks into .d64 images. I've tried it and it works well. It also comes with source code! There was a commercial product called either DOS-2-DOS or DISK-2-DISK (I forget which) which was able to access 1541 disks on a filesystem level, for reading AND writing. But it would only format a disk with less tracks (only tracks within certain speed zones were formatted), and it was probably careful about where it was writing, too. That variable-speed data clock is not something Paula can deal with very well. For Atari 8-bit disks, there is misc/emu/551conv.lha on Aminet. This reads and writes several Atari formats. I've used it to read AND write disks for use with on my Atari 810 and XF551 drives. Of course, I can also read/write 360K and lower MS-DOS formats with CrossDOS and my A1020 as well. I see no reason why more formats couldn't be accessed with this hardware configuration. Not Macintosh DD formats, not _writing_ reliably to 1541 disks, not accessing hard-sectored disks, but anything that doesn't vary the data or rotation speed and is soft sectored should be doable. Low level information on as many disk formats as possible would help a lot, as would filesystem information. Too bad I don't have the time now for this project, or I'd reawaken it. BTW, there's an excellent article by Betty Clay entitled "Amiga Disk Encoding Schemes" in Volume 3, Issue 1 of Amiga Transactor magazine. That article, plus the Amiga Hardware Reference Manual and RKM: Libraries & Devices were my starting points for the project. > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Sun Oct 4 08:47:08 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810041347.JAA06584@shell.monmouth.com> Tron was done with a Foonly PDP10 clone. I believe the first microcomputer to run Unix was the DEC PDP11/03 and 11/23 at At&T's Bell Labs (see the papers on mini-unix). Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 06:17:55 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <199810040031.AA10278@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 3, 98 08:31:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1626 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/d5e54c69/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 06:45:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 3, 98 05:45:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1370 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/add6288a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 06:49:30 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 3, 98 05:51:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 801 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/a670b5e7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 06:53:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Oct 3, 98 08:00:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 437 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/1267301e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 06:33:53 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: <199810040033.SAA11299@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Oct 3, 98 06:33:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 934 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/f7a9e0ce/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 06:28:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <19981004003222.16257.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Oct 3, 98 05:32:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1286 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/124d44a6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 06:39:28 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 3, 98 05:41:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 647 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/d9c99194/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 4 09:15:21 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 Message-ID: <981004101521.158@trailing-edge.com> On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Jim Strickland wrote: > Ahh. I see. :) So if you took that same chip and built, say, an ethernet > board for an s100 bus or something equally wierd, that would qualify? In the process of doing so, of course, you'd end up building an S-100 to {ISA|PCI} converter :-). These "modern" interface chips tend to assume that they're going straight into a PC-clone. And I think an S-100 Ethernet interface is substantially less weird than an S-100 ARCnet board, and I've had several of those! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Oct 4 05:32:24 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Tony Cole and the Crays In-Reply-To: <3616E4CE.7CF10718@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199810041435.KAA16069@smtp.interlog.com> On 3 Oct 98 at 23:00, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Doug Yowza wrote: > > > > He's selling his Cray bits on Haggle (at a slight discount). I actually > > got one of the Cray-1 boards second-hand. They're pretty cool, and since > > I got mine indirectly, I don't feel personally repsonsible for the Cray > > that gave its life for the sake of art. > > http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201777875 > > Well, that subject line sounds like a killer name for a rock group -- > then again again I've mentioned before that I'm not in my first > childhood. Maybe not even my second -- I tend to drop too many bits. > Memory just isn't what it was. Too much LDS in the Sixties, I guess. > -- > Ward Griffiths > I was just looking thru a Tab book from 1988 on byo comps. and the author mentions a Tony Cole as head of a mother board supplier the V.I.P.C. Company. Wonder if it's the same guy before his Cray notoriety. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 4 10:48:26 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? Message-ID: <199810041548.AA20346@world.std.com> < > I doubt it. The homebrew/hobbyist movement had a very compelling driv < > force: just about the only way to get your own computer was to built i < > yourself. That's no longer true. But there is a pretty strong homebr < > aircraft movement, and it also still makes sense for robotics. < ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ < < Speaking as degreed Enginerd, a home-brewer from childhood, and a < private pilot.... when one's homemade *computer* crashes, one is at You called? Good description of me. ;) < least spared the attention of the NTSB and the EyeWitness News Team... You bet. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 4 10:48:32 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? Message-ID: <199810041548.AA20384@world.std.com> < Didn't Motorola make a 1-bit cmos microcomputer? Cannot remember it's pa < number. I remember Turning machine articles in various places. One is "T Yes the 14500 industrial control unit. It did not do serial arithmetic but did do logical operation based on two single bit operands. It was intended to be a controller to replace simple relay trees. That however, is far different from systems that were bit serial as that was done to reduce the number of redundant logic elements needed (at the expense of speed) and often these serial machines had very long instruction and data words with 31bits not unheard of. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 4 10:48:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810041548.AA20473@world.std.com> < I believe the first microcomputer to run Unix was the DEC PDP11/03 and < 11/23 at At&T's Bell Labs (see the papers on mini-unix). I believe that is wrong. Unix was running on PDP-11s long before the LSI-11 or the 11/23 by many years. I think the 34, and 44s were teh popular hosts. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 4 10:48:52 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? Message-ID: <199810041548.AA20485@world.std.com> < Most Xilinx FPGAs can be configured by a serial bitstream from a < microcontroller or a PC printer port. Not too hard to do, and a lot < easier to modify than an EPROM. I use EEproms... easier still. They can also take a serial bit stream but in some apps the controller isn't operable until the FPGA is up. < The problem with most of these devices is that the format of the < bitstream is not documented (in fact some companies actively prevent it < being documented) and that you have to use their expensive software < (which often runs under an OS that I don't have...). However, take a loo < at the Xilinx 6000 chips - they are 100% documented. It's possible to < write your own compiler and downloader for these. They also look < interesting devices... Most the serial format is easy and a loader is not much but the compiler is not trivial as you have to do route maps and that's not trivial. < Take a look at the PICs as well. The programmer for those is very simple < and Microchip do document the programming algorithms. A 16C84 programmer < is 2 cheap TTL chips, a few discretes and a PC printer port. I've looked at them and like most single chips MCUs they are bizzare. They also offer a windows emulator that pretty neat. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 4 10:48:58 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? Message-ID: <199810041548.AA20523@world.std.com> entertainment. But there is no real point in getting a high score, right < Building a CPU should be like that. It's entertaining. It's a hobby. And < for me, the feeling I get when it runs its first instruction almost < certainly exceeds any feeling I would get from a video game (OK, so I < don't like games much, but you get the point). Not so fast... There are good reasons to design your own cpu. Assuming your doing an existing cpu, speed and added features are some. For example doing a FPGA version of z80 that runs at 30mhz and also uses not more than 2-6 clocks per instruction. Tough you bet but, it would be faster than any z80! Practical maybe not. but that was a trivial example. Another could be a simple PDP-8 using modern parts and no core that can easily run at several MIPs (8Es were several hundred thousand instructions per second). Just some exercises. ;) Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 4 10:49:04 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 Message-ID: <199810041549.AA20560@world.std.com> < In the process of doing so, of course, you'd end up building an S-100 < to {ISA|PCI} converter :-). These "modern" interface chips tend to < assume that they're going straight into a PC-clone. Been there done that and also wrote and article about subsetting ISA to get a bus more usable on non isa machines. A typical homebrew app would be grafting a WD1002WX to a z80 homebrew to provide a MFM hardisk. The example is the core of home brewing as it takes common cheap components to make a usable or improved system but is not a plug in mod. < And I think an S-100 Ethernet interface is substantially less weird < than an S-100 ARCnet board, and I've had several of those! Eithernet was done for S100 commercially. S100 took longer to die than most people thought. Allison From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Oct 4 10:42:35 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Tron (was Re: VCF Nerd Trivia Challenge Questions & Answers) In-Reply-To: <19981004074557.5245.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199810040118.TAA11711@calico.litterbox.com> <199810040118.TAA11711@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981004084235.0333ab14@agora.rdrop.com> > >5 bonus points to anyone who explains who Ed is, and what FSW was famous for. Well... the "Federal Screw Works" are the people who brought us the "Votrax" speech synthesizer. (of which I still have one!) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Oct 4 11:42:42 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:04 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > Well, that's kind of the feeling I get. I want to bring the folks who are > > quietly inventing cool things in their garages back out into the open. I > > think it would be great to revive the old Homebrew Computer Club here in > > the Silicon Valley. > > What a pity it's 6000 miles away :-(. This is the sort of thing that I > wish would happen in the UK. You can bet I'd join up. > :) :) :) Very Friendly Rhetorical Question Follows: :) :) :) And the reason(s) preventing you from originating UKVCF I is(are)? Especially yourself, Tony... with your commitment and obvious passion for the Art... and don't give me any 'busy' s***t.. Sam's busy, I'm *busy*... but one makes time... no? Oui? Yup. :) :) :) I promise you: You do UKVCF and I'll make it over there.... Now, where's my gauntlet.... Cheers John From tomowad at earthlink.net Sun Oct 4 13:00:28 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: VCF Nerd Trivia Challenge Questions & Answers Message-ID: <199810041700.KAA12074@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >The "TRS" in TRS-80 stands for this. > >Tandy-Radio Shack What does the "80" in TRS-80 stand for? Tom -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Oct 4 12:32:31 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Available: PDP-11 Refs Message-ID: <3617B12F.2A20B3E0@halcyon.com> I have some PDP-11 references up for grabs. These are all either small paperback books from DEC, small pamphlets, or foldout reference "cards." If you need any more specific information about any of these, let me know. - Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook, 1980 (quantity 1) - Microcomputers and Memories, 1981 (1) - RSX-11 Handbook, 1984-85 (1) - RT-11 Pocket Guide, V04.00, 1980 (1) - TECO Pocket Guide, 1978 (1) - PDP-11 Programming Card, 1975 (3) I'll give priority to anyone who has something to trade, but even if you don't have anything, let me know what you'd like. I'd like to find a "Mini-Reference to RT-11, V5.3" (or a complete set of docs, of course!) Dave Jenner djenner@halcyon.com From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 4 13:57:03 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: BA123 Power Supplies In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981004050043.00933aa0@mail.jps.net> References: Message-ID: >At 09:39 PM 10/3/98 -0800, you wrote: > >>Well, thanks in part to advice to from Bruce Lane, I was able to find the >>problem with the power supply. I pulled the PS out and cleaned it up, and >>then cleaned up the area around it. That's when I discovered the problem, >>a seed pod. > > Heh... can I call 'em or can I call 'em? ;-) > > Those supplies are actually pretty durable if they've had the ECO >applied. >That's why I suspected the mechanical debris issue. > > Any clue as to what kind of seed it was? I'm not sure, I'm threatening to do a page up on it for my web pages :^) It's a little pod with a couple of small round seeds in it. It rattles rather nicely. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 12:10:13 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Oct 4, 98 09:42:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 846 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/0f3a0c3f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 12:10:52 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: VCF Nerd Trivia Challenge Questions & Answers In-Reply-To: <199810041700.KAA12074@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "Tom Owad" at Oct 4, 98 01:00:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 125 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/ea68dc05/attachment.ksh From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Oct 4 13:40:28 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: BA123 Power Supplies References: Message-ID: <3617C11C.10B7A068@halcyon.com> It's probably a descendant of the moth (first "bug") Grace Hopper found in one of the relays of a machine. Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >At 09:39 PM 10/3/98 -0800, you wrote: > > > >>Well, thanks in part to advice to from Bruce Lane, I was able to find the > >>problem with the power supply. I pulled the PS out and cleaned it up, and > >>then cleaned up the area around it. That's when I discovered the problem, > >>a seed pod. > > > > Heh... can I call 'em or can I call 'em? ;-) > > > > Those supplies are actually pretty durable if they've had the ECO > >applied. > >That's why I suspected the mechanical debris issue. > > > > Any clue as to what kind of seed it was? > > I'm not sure, I'm threatening to do a page up on it for my web pages :^) > It's a little pod with a couple of small round seeds in it. It rattles > rather nicely. > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Oct 4 13:49:20 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Available: WICO Trackball (read on...) Message-ID: <3617C330.45D98C70@halcyon.com> WICO Command Control (circa 1982) WICO Trackball 72-4545 For use with: Atari Home Video Game Sears Arcade Game Atari 400 and 800 Home Computers Commodore VIC-20 Home Computer. I have several of these available, and they're unused. They're built like a tank. I was going to adapt them to other uses many moons ago, but never got around to it. $10/each, $25/3. Plus shipping. Or trade for DEC Rainbow, Pro-3xx, or PDP-11 stuff. Dave Jenner djenner@halcyon.com From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Oct 4 13:56:51 1998 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: BA123 Power Supplies In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19981004050043.00933aa0@mail.jps.net> Message-ID: <199810041856.OAA24982@quartz.netsync.net> At 10:57 10/04/98 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>At 09:39 PM 10/3/98 -0800, you wrote: >> >>>Well, thanks in part to advice to from Bruce Lane, I was able to find the >>>problem with the power supply. I pulled the PS out and cleaned it up, and >>>then cleaned up the area around it. That's when I discovered the problem, >>>a seed pod. >> >> Heh... can I call 'em or can I call 'em? ;-) >> >> Those supplies are actually pretty durable if they've had the ECO >>applied. >>That's why I suspected the mechanical debris issue. >> >> Any clue as to what kind of seed it was? > >I'm not sure, I'm threatening to do a page up on it for my web pages :^) >It's a little pod with a couple of small round seeds in it. It rattles >rather nicely. Sounds like Black Locust or Honey Locust tree seed pods. They are like Snow Pea pods (Snow Peas like you get at your local Chinese restaurant). About 10-12mm wide x 20mm to up to about 100mm long. The unit probably was stored for awhile in a garage or such building with one of those trees nearby. I've found Mountain Ash leaves (they're rather small leaves, like Locust tree leaves) in the fans of some other pieces of equipment I had over the past decades. --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From hhacker at gte.net Sun Oct 4 14:16:26 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: PDP-10 (was Re: EDSAC on your desk.) Message-ID: <001201bdefcb$7e5a5250$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Eric: This is just the kind of restoration that interests me. Also, I noted that in another message, you refered to a PDP-10 simulator, the kx10. Where can I get a copy of the simulator? If you have information about the availability of hardware, I would very much like to receive same. William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, September 21, 1998 10:38 PM Subject: PDP-10 (was Re: EDSAC on your desk.) >Huw Davies wrote: >> It's just that there are so many circuits in a -10 that getting one to run >> (even when new) required a full time field service engineer > >As I recall, the 2060 I used to use ran for months at a time without needing >repair (i.e., just scheduled PM). > >> (our -10 was delivered in 1973 so if it were still here it'd be 25 years >> old) > >Must have been a KI, then. I'm told that those were relatively easy to keep >running (at least compared to the KL). > >> I'd expect the probability of it running would be close to zero. The >> maintenance fiche is about a foot deep.... > >A former DEC field service engineer has told me that I'm a madman for wanting >to try, but he didn't put the probability anywhere near that low. The >system was in perfect working order when it was decommissioned, and not >much has happened to it since. Aside from testing the power supplies and >checking for oxidation on the connectors, I'm not really expecting that >much to be wrong with it. And I think I know where to find spare modules >if it is necessary. > >Cheers, >Eric > From hhacker at gte.net Sun Oct 4 14:19:46 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: IBM 1130 Was: Re: Linux on S/370? Was: Re: printer socket (Off topic) Message-ID: <001b01bdefcb$f403c810$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Christian: I have been monitoring this group for some time now, and though I find the microcomputer material not particularly interesting, there is much here to be enjoyed. Thank you for pointing the way. I remain interested in the PDP-11 you have. William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 6:55 AM Subject: IBM 1130 Was: Re: Linux on S/370? Was: Re: printer socket (Off topic) >At 22:33 21-09-98 +0000, Joe wrote: >>At 09:35 PM 9/21/98 -0400, Christian Fandt wrote: >>> >>>Ever hear much of an IBM 1130? Any info on the web, etc. on that machine? >>> >> >> Yeah, I learned to program on one. Many years later I worked on them. > >That's where my interest lies as this was my first exposure to computing. >In college I learned Fortran IV/66 in 1972/73. I've always been curious >about those machines since then. Never heard of them anymore over the past >25 (!!) years. > >At least I can tell stories to the youngsters, like other "old time" >computer folks here, about spending hours in the noisy keypunch room on an >IBM 026 (I think) keypunch machine punching out my programs onto the >Hollerith cards, hauling the stack of cards (without dropping the danged >things!) over to the Computer Operator Guru to be run together in a batch >with all the other students' Fortran and Cobol programs overnite and coming >back the next morning to be greeted with several pages of compiler errors >typically generated by a very simple syntax error in the early part of my >program. No fancy-a** GUI there!! :-) > >That machine was "huge" by some standards then: it had 32K of core memory! >The technical faculty at this rather small junior college was quite >impressed. > >Ahhh, those were the days.... > >Of course, I would LOVE to have one! Anybody got one laying around they >want to get shed of?? > >Have any technical/interesting facts or anecdotes about the 1130 to share >with us big iron folk Joe? > >Thanks, Chris >-- -- > > > >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA >Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 4 14:16:51 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? Message-ID: <981004151651.16c@trailing-edge.com> >< Take a look at the PICs as well. The programmer for those is very simple >< and Microchip do document the programming algorithms. A 16C84 programmer >< is 2 cheap TTL chips, a few discretes and a PC printer port. >I've looked at them and like most single chips MCUs they are bizzare. >They also offer a windows emulator that pretty neat. >Allison What you find "bizarre" is almost certainly what I like about them. 12-, 13-, and 14-bit wide instruction words, Harvard architecture so that I-space and D-space are completely different concepts, remarkabably efficient interrupt handling, remarkably low-power quiet modes, etc. A refreshing change from the bland uniformity of the 8080/8086/6800-derived microcomputers that dominate much of the world. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From hhacker at gte.net Sun Oct 4 14:23:10 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: IBM 1130 Was: Re: Linux on S/370? Was: Re: printer socket (Off topic) Message-ID: <002801bdefcc$6d6feb20$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Joe: I learned APL as my first language, at Orange Coast College in Costa Mesa California (Orange county, in So Cal) in 1972. We had an IBM 370/155H at the time, 1MB of RAM (as I understood it, the RAM was semiconductor), and the version of APL was from STSC, called APL PLUS. What a step down to then learn Cobol, Fortran, and RPG, though Assembly (ALC) was a lot of fun. We have come a long way since then. William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 8:48 AM Subject: Re: IBM 1130 Was: Re: Linux on S/370? Was: Re: printer socket (Off topic) >Chris, > > I learned to program in APL on one in 1968 or 1969. We didn't have to use >punch cards, we were THE PROGRAMMERS, the machine was turned over to us >when we walked in the door. At that time it was the only computer in >central Florida. Not bad for a kid that was still in high school! > > Around 1979 I worked for a third party company in Virginia that >maintained 1130s and also upgraded them with third party hardware. I well >remember adding boxs with core memory made by someone else (not IBM and not >us). I think it upgraded them to a whapping 32K! One of the 1130s that I >upgraded was owned by Gallop in Princeton, NJ. They're the people that do >the Gallop polls. Another one was owned by Virginia Military Institute in >Lexington, Va. > > Those machines seem to last forever, I'll bet there's still some of them >in use! > > Joe > >At 09:55 AM 9/22/98 -0400, you wrote: >>At 22:33 21-09-98 +0000, Joe wrote: >>>At 09:35 PM 9/21/98 -0400, Christian Fandt wrote: >>>> >>>>Ever hear much of an IBM 1130? Any info on the web, etc. on that machine? >>>> >>> >>> Yeah, I learned to program on one. Many years later I worked on them. >> >>That's where my interest lies as this was my first exposure to computing. >>In college I learned Fortran IV/66 in 1972/73. I've always been curious >>about those machines since then. Never heard of them anymore over the past >>25 (!!) years. >> >>At least I can tell stories to the youngsters, like other "old time" >>computer folks here, about spending hours in the noisy keypunch room on an >>IBM 026 (I think) keypunch machine punching out my programs onto the >>Hollerith cards, hauling the stack of cards (without dropping the danged >>things!) over to the Computer Operator Guru to be run together in a batch >>with all the other students' Fortran and Cobol programs overnite and coming >>back the next morning to be greeted with several pages of compiler errors >>typically generated by a very simple syntax error in the early part of my >>program. No fancy-a** GUI there!! :-) >> >>That machine was "huge" by some standards then: it had 32K of core memory! >>The technical faculty at this rather small junior college was quite >>impressed. >> >>Ahhh, those were the days.... >> >>Of course, I would LOVE to have one! Anybody got one laying around they >>want to get shed of?? >> >>Have any technical/interesting facts or anecdotes about the 1130 to share >>with us big iron folk Joe? >> >>Thanks, Chris >>-- -- >> >> >> >>Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >>Jamestown, NY USA >>Member of Antique Wireless Association >> URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ >> > From hhacker at gte.net Sun Oct 4 14:38:14 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: new DEC additions Message-ID: <006e01bdefce$87dfe260$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> David: I am short on time now, and much of what you have is not known to me, so I can not now be of much help. I will try later. Still, I would be interested in the CDC equipment you mention. Where are you located, etc. I am in Southern California. William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 11:16 AM Subject: new DEC additions >drove out to the country the other day and picked up this load of dec stuff. >some of you dec hotshots can tell me if it was worth the trip. lol > >i already have a microvax II, but in a tower unit form factor, almost like a >pc. (ba123 i think) the 3 i got are shaped different. two of them are big, >probably over 200lbs each easy. the first one has a sticker on it showing >model 63006. its a big unit, with a hood that opens up top and a big tape >drive that slides forward. the machine says TS05 on the front. one model >came with two hard drives. the other unit 'named pugsly' is the same, except >it has a small tape drive and the backplane has cables going everywhere and >the side panels are off. thankfully they have wheels. the 3rd uvax is a much >smaller unit but wider than the one i have here in the computer room. it has a >dual vertical floppy drive and two hard drives. >i also got two vt220 terminals >about 40 orange binders about vax/vms. programmer's guide, reference, and who >know what else! >a letterwriter 100 >external drive RD54 >a tape drive (tk50?) >a rat's nest of cables to hook everything up. >some blank dec 5.25 disks >about 20 compactapes. half are backups. last bu was nov94. >also got these system tapes: >microvms 4.6 full bin >vax fortran 4.5 bin >decnet mvms v4 net bnd/n >tsv05 driver bin >microvms v4.7 bin >vhs lic key bin >microvms 4.6 bin mand update >mvII diag cust >rel:1.2.1 install microvax II (handwritten) > > >heh, if anyone can explain all this, that would be most welcome. it was hard >work having to unload those off a truck by myself. i might keep the smaller of >the 3 i got, but the two big monstors, i'm unsure of. the people i got these >from also want to give me a CDC machine that's even bigger... > >david From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Oct 4 14:46:41 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: The 'Geek' deifned? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981004124641.007339ec@agora.rdrop.com> Appearing quite stylish at work this week in my 'Geek' t-shirt from the VCF, someone approached with a somewhat unexpected question: "So, what does 'Geek' mean anyway?" Ummmm.... (nervous pause)... G enuinely E nthuastic E lectronics K eeper (best I could come up with on short notice) Any other 'takes' on a definition for this? (word rather than concept) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From hhacker at gte.net Sun Oct 4 14:58:45 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: KL-10 Emulation Underway Message-ID: <00a901bdefd1$65ff10a0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Daniel: I would be willing to help! William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Daniel A. Seagraves To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 01, 1998 12:01 PM Subject: KL-10 Emulation Underway >This message was supposed to have gotten here a while ago, but it never did. >Myself and a few other individuals are actively working on a KL-10 emulation. >The project is named e10, and is 3.99% finished. I'm busy confusing myself >with 36-bit math right now. Anyway, help would be nice to complete this >fscker. It's being written in C for Unix platforms, it's under the GPL. >Please don't email me and tell me how stupid this is, or how I'm never >going to finish, I'm trying my damndest to maintain the Never-Give-Up >attitude. I plan to be winning by Y2K. Anyway, does anyone want to help out? > >I generated a web page (Using vi, of course...) at bony.umtec.com, and >the current source can be had from there via FTP in /pub/ka10/*. >Any help at all would be appreciated. >------- From hhacker at gte.net Sun Oct 4 15:01:44 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Xerox 16/8 Message-ID: <00b601bdefd1$d072a6e0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Jamie: Would you please enlighten me as to how you came into possesion of the Xerox. Also, I wonder if this computer has any relationship with the Xerox Sigma series of processors. Can you obtain serial numbers, etc? William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Jamie Bixby To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 01, 1998 4:45 PM Subject: Xerox 16/8 >I have recently came into position of an old Xerox computer that I >really do not know much about and was wondering if anyone out there >would be able to send me via e-mail any info that they may have on it. >The computer works and all but all that comes up is something about >tables and something about invalid drives. If anyone out there has any >info on this computer I would greatly appreciate it. > From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Oct 4 15:08:28 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: The 'Geek' deifned? References: <3.0.3.32.19981004124641.007339ec@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3617D5BC.48CC66AA@halcyon.com> The New Hacker's Dictionary, 3rd Ed., 1996, Eric S. Raymond: - Doesn't define "geek" alone, - Does define "computer geek" as: "One who eats (computer) bugs for a living. One who fulfills all the dreariest negative stereotypes about hackers; an asocial, malodorous, pasty-faced monomaniac with all the personality of a cheese grater. ..." Sounds like we're in trouble, right?! James Willing wrote: > > Appearing quite stylish at work this week in my 'Geek' t-shirt from the > VCF, someone approached with a somewhat unexpected question: > > "So, what does 'Geek' mean anyway?" > > Ummmm.... (nervous pause)... > > G enuinely > E nthuastic > E lectronics > K eeper > > (best I could come up with on short notice) > > Any other 'takes' on a definition for this? (word rather than concept) > > -jim > > --- > jimw@agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 4 15:12:08 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? Message-ID: <199810042012.AA22015@world.std.com> < What you find "bizarre" is almost certainly what I like about them. 12- < 13-, and 14-bit wide instruction words, Harvard architecture so that < I-space and D-space are completely different concepts, remarkabably Check some of the 4bitters done over 18 years ago... nothing new to me. < etc. A refreshing change from the bland uniformity of the < 8080/8086/6800-derived microcomputers that dominate much of the world. Everything is a refreshing change from wintel. ;) Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 4 16:07:12 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: PDP-10 (was Re: EDSAC on your desk.) In-Reply-To: <001201bdefcb$7e5a5250$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> (hhacker@gte.net) References: <001201bdefcb$7e5a5250$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: <19981004210712.7743.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Buck Savage" wrote: > message, you refered to a PDP-10 simulator, the kx10. Where can I get a > copy of the simulator? It has not been publicly released. Several people (myself included) are trying to convince the author to release it. > If you have information about the availability of hardware, I > would very much like to receive same. Sorry, but any available DEC-10 hardware that I find out about will be instantly aquired and become unavailable. Even if it's another KL10, Scott and I will need it for spares. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 4 16:09:55 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <981004151651.16c@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@timaxp.trailing-edge.com) References: <981004151651.16c@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <19981004210955.7751.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tim Shoppa wrote about Microchip PIC microcontrollers: > What you find "bizarre" is almost certainly what I like about them. 12-, > 13-, and 14-bit wide instruction words, Harvard architecture so that You've been using them for quite a while if you remember the 13-bit ones. :-) IIRC, that was the PIC1670 (not PIC16C70!); perhaps there were some other 13-bitters. That was before I started with PICs, though I have the old data books around here somewhere. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 16:05:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Gemini Galaxy 2 Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1412 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/22a59259/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 4 16:37:22 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? Message-ID: <981004173722.16c@trailing-edge.com> >> What you find "bizarre" is almost certainly what I like about them. 12-, >> 13-, and 14-bit wide instruction words, Harvard architecture so that >You've been using them for quite a while if you remember the 13-bit ones. :-) >IIRC, that was the PIC1670 (not PIC16C70!); perhaps there were some other >13-bitters. That was before I started with PICs, though I have the old data >books around here somewhere. I was using them when they weren't even called PIC's, and were sold by General Instruments... -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From yowza at yowza.com Sun Oct 4 16:46:32 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: The 'Geek' deifned? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981004124641.007339ec@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: I couldn't find a good etymology, but here's some early usage according the the OED: << geek (ik). [Var. GECK sb.1] U.S. slang. (See quots. 1954 and 1961). [1876: see GECK sb.1]. 1916 Wells Fargo Messenger Oct. 29/2 A new Wells agent struck our town the other week, and say - you never saw a more enthusiastic geek! 1954 WEBSTER Add., Geek, a carnival `wild man' whose act usually includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake. 1961 Times Lit. Suppl. 27 Jan. 62/2 He picks up waitress, a simple girl, and enslaves a `geek', a dumb sideshow stooge whose daily routine consists of being exhibited in a pit which he has to dig for himself. >> -- Doug From mark_k at iname.com Sun Oct 4 15:33:03 1998 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Universal drive Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 1998 Zane H. Healy wrote: >>Anyway, the URL given was http://www.jshoenfeld.com/eindex.html > >I just tried and got told there was no DNS entry. Hmmm, looks like there was a misprint in the magazine I copied that URL from. On Sat, 3 Oct 1998 Lawrence Walker wrote: > beyond 720k. Many of the old ST Format 'zine's free disks used to be > formatted with extra sectors so that they could cram more PD on disks. There Same applies to some Amiga coverdisks from the Amiga User International mag; these used the diskspare.device 12-sectors-per-track format. > When I get a Workbench disk for my newly acquired Amiga 2000 I'm going to > see if FCpro will copy the Amiga 880k format. Would be a solution to transfer > problems from the net. Now if I could only find an easy way around the If you have an Amiga with a workable amount of RAM or a hard disk, it is quite easy to transfer files using PC-formatted (720K) floppy disks. Contact me privately if you want a copy of the Workbench disk etc., or more info on 1541-to-Amiga connection. >> You can make a cable to hook up a 1541 disk drive to a PC or Amiga and read >> files or disk images using this. > > I take it you're referring to the X1541 cable. I wasn't aware that it could > be used with Amigas. That looks promising. I wasn't. Perhaps I should have written "you can make cables..." instead. I only have experience with this on an Amiga, but there are at least two types of cable you can make, one extremely simple the other using a 7406 IC. There are several Amiga programs for reading C64 disks, the Easy1541 package being the nicest. You can read and write 1541 files and disk images, send commands (e.g. to format a disk) and using the supplied iec.library control any IEC bus device. -- Mark From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Oct 4 17:53:16 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? Message-ID: <19981004225317.23153.qmail@hotmail.com> > >> In the 1950's, this stuff was new. Now, it's all for fun. I agree it must be a lot of fun, but there's no scientific/practical value. >Yes, but was there a 'point' to building a CPU from relays in the 1950's >? Other than the fun of doing it, of course. > Companies can make more money otherwise. If a kid buys $300 worth of parts and shares all of his homebrew apps with friends ala GPL, no one makes any money. If a kid buys $2000 worth of plastic and then keeps on buying $50 apps, it's a lot of money! It didn't happen like this on purpose, by the way. When stuff started to get bundled and kids started to play around with the computers their parent bought them... >Yes, but why not? Some of us would like to reverse that trend. > No, I'm not. How many people are there in Boston who do this stuff? 5? That's not much information. And a web site inspires no one. >Are you kidding? The web is full of sites with data sheets and >application notes. Just about every major (and many not-so-major) IC >manufacturer is there. When I started out you had to phone the >distributors and convince them to send you a data sheet. This wasn't >always easy if they realised you were a hobbyist who would probably buy a >couple of chips at most. > >> >> I'm curious why the HPCC would be interested in homebrew? Or is HPCC > >Well, it used a calculator, right..... Why should any computer club be >interested in homebrew. This project started as a replacement for the >much-missed HP-IL interface on the HP71 and sort of grew... > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Oct 4 17:55:19 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Homebrew projects wanted for exhibit at VCF 3.0 In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 4, 98 12:33:53 pm Message-ID: <199810042255.QAA21695@calico.litterbox.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 582 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/62189922/attachment.ksh From mlin at mlin.lib.ma.us Sun Oct 4 18:03:55 1998 From: mlin at mlin.lib.ma.us (MLIN Public Account) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: b252.html Message-ID: <199810042303.TAA28175@mlin.hnt.com> [LINK] ______________________________________________________________________ Sunday October 4 Gates pushes hometown to Linux Linux-based document system costs 10% of Windows NT solution By Christine Burns - FRAMINGHAM It's ironic that in his zeal to equip his new $US53 million home with the latest and greatest technology - not to mention every modern convenience known to man, woman and child - Microsoft mogul Bill Gates drove his hometown into the arms of another operating system. The official paperwork filed with the city clerk in Medina, Washington, (pop. 3,082) concerning the Gates homestead had the city's file cabinets bursting at the seams. Of the 10 file cabinets housed in the old ferry terminal-turned-town hall set on the shores of Lake Washington, four were completely filled with upward of 40,000 pages of building permits, blueprints and change work orders all pertaining to the Gates estate. Factoring in future growth and recognising that they physically had no more room for storing municipal paperwork, the town fathers had to decide on whether to spring for a new town hall or a document management system. The latter being the more prudent choice, the town looked into NT document management systems that might fit in nicely with the town's Microsoft LAN. But what the town came up with was a product that runs on Caldera's version of Linux. This product rang in at less than 10% of the price of its NT counterparts, says Ray Jones, president of Archive Retrieval, a Kirkland, Washington, systems integrator. Archive Retrieval last month built and installed the city's new document management system, called The Archive. "When I asked the guys at town hall if they minded that the idle screen would display a big Caldera logo, they told me I could point it toward the window so everybody walking by could see it," Jones says. Sorry, Bill. No hometown advantage here. Back for more News _________________________________________________________________ @IDG Home | News Wire | @PC World | Industry Directory | Industry Events | PR Wire | About IDG | About Our Site | Help | (c) Copyright, IDG Communications Ltd, 1998. All rights reserved. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 4 18:03:27 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Gemini Galaxy 2 In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Gemini Galaxy 2" (Oct 4, 22:05) References: Message-ID: <9810050003.ZM28488@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 4, 22:05, Tony Duell wrote: > Subject: Gemini Galaxy 2 > I am sure this thing is over 10 years old... I am also almost certain > that only UK people will have heard of this machine. > > I am currently repairing a UK Z-80 machine called a Gemini Galaxy 2. It's > basically a much-enhanced NASCOM, and uses the same bus pinout but with 3 > more address lines (there's some RAM on the CPU board to handle memory > mapping). > > I have 3 boards in the cardcage - the CPU (Z80 + 64K RAM + boot ROM), an > IVT (a video card with a Z80 on it) and a floppy controller/SASI > interface. The latter is linked to a single floppy drive and to a Xebec > SASI->MFM interface. And that, in turn is linked to a Rodime hard disk. > > At the moment, those boards seem to be working. It powers up and asks for > a boot disk. Which I don't have. Alas the hard disk is not working - it > starts to spin up and then spins down, and stops with the LED flashing (I > can get the exact sequence of flashes if anyone has the error code table). A common fault on Rodime drives was losing the index sensor output, which it uses to check the speed as it spins up. I've never found a way of fixing that completely, since it's a Hall Effect sensor inside the spindle motor. It generates two pulses per revolution, and the micro uses a special data pattern on track -2 to decide which is the real index pulse (it only needs it for formatting, really). At power-up, the micro checks the RAM and ROM, and then starts the motor and looks for index pulses. If it sees some, it then checks the speed -- there's a PLL that compares the sensor output to the reference clock (11MHz, divided down to 120Hz). If the micro doesn't see the index pulses, it generates "Fault 10" and shuts the system down. The manual for my RO350 notes that there is one jumper near the microprocessor which can be removed to circumvent the problem caused by loss of the special index info on track -2. You could try removing it, if you have an RO350 or similar. The two LEDs are for Power and Select; the Power LED flashes for fault codes. A long flash = 1, short flash = 0. 1 no index track data pattern 2 no flag 0,0 (didn't find Trk0 after 350 steps) 3 motor speed outside 1% (one!) tolerance at end of power-up sequence 4 motor speed outside 10% (ten!) tolerance in normal operation 5 flag zero stays true 6 not used 7 static Write Fault 8 RAM self test failed 9 ROM self test failed 10 no index 11 motor not up to speed I don't know if these codes are the same on other Rodime drives. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 17:56:49 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <19981004225317.23153.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Oct 4, 98 03:53:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1043 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981004/b1095d16/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 18:26:32 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Gemini Galaxy 2 In-Reply-To: <9810050003.ZM28488@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 4, 98 11:03:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2286 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/4a1ac557/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Sun Oct 4 18:46:59 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810042346.AA22848@world.std.com> >< I believe the first microcomputer to run Unix was the DEC PDP11/03 and >< 11/23 at At&T's Bell Labs (see the papers on mini-unix). > >I believe that is wrong. Unix was running on PDP-11s long before the >LSI-11 or the 11/23 by many years. I think the 34, and 44s were teh >popular hosts. In fact, when I was a student at WPI in the mid-70's, we had a version of Unix running on an 11/10 in the CS department (off RK05s)... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 4 18:56:13 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <981004195613.16c@trailing-edge.com> >>< I believe the first microcomputer to run Unix was the DEC PDP11/03 and >>< 11/23 at At&T's Bell Labs (see the papers on mini-unix). >> >>I believe that is wrong. Unix was running on PDP-11s long before the >>LSI-11 or the 11/23 by many years. I think the 34, and 44s were teh >>popular hosts. >In fact, when I was a student at WPI in the mid-70's, we had a version >of Unix running on an 11/10 in the CS department (off RK05s)... But neither the 11/10 nor the /34 nor the /44 were, by any stretch of the imagination, "microcomputers". Definitely minis. Tim. From william at ans.net Sun Oct 4 20:20:08 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: new DEC additions In-Reply-To: <006e01bdefce$87dfe260$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: > >the people i got > these > >from also want to give me a CDC machine that's even bigger... Hmmm...CDC machine? Tell us more... I just received a working Cyber 910 (AKA SGI 3130), and am currently trying to pry a Cyber 1000 out of the someone. William Donzelli william@ans.net From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 4 20:28:48 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <981004173722.16c@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@timaxp.trailing-edge.com) References: <981004173722.16c@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <19981005012848.8628.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > I was using them when they weren't even called PIC's, and were sold > by General Instruments... No, they were called PICs even back then. But they were NMOS rather than CMOS, and didn't have on-board EPROM or EEPROM. Eric From mbg at world.std.com Sun Oct 4 20:37:22 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810050137.AA23557@world.std.com> >>In fact, when I was a student at WPI in the mid-70's, we had a version >>of Unix running on an 11/10 in the CS department (off RK05s)... > >But neither the 11/10 nor the /34 nor the /44 were, by any stretch >of the imagination, "microcomputers". Definitely minis. Sorry, I was actually responding to the 11/34 vs. 11/44, since they were later computers than the 11/05,10... I wasn't responding to the question of the first microcomputer. I should have made that clear... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ D From handyman at sprintmail.com Sun Oct 4 08:51:43 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Here comes the Hurricane References: <199809240043.UAA22204@smtp.interlog.com> <36090B07.2AE95A98@sprintmail.com> <361a97ca.100741518@insight> Message-ID: <36177D6E.38FBB19D@sprintmail.com> Bill Richman wrote: > Are you still with us Phil? Haven't heard anything since before the > hurricane. Did you and all the computers come through okay? Yes I am still Alive & Well, Hurricane Georges missed us here in SW Florida. It did a number to the Florida Keys, but turned and went west missing us by 150 miles. Phewwww! a Close call.... To celebrate I went up to Orlando to a Hamfest, then spent the entire day (10 Hours) hunting down classic computers at Thrift stores there. I found the following goodies: Kaypro 10, Kaypro 16, Mattel Aquaruis, Commodore Plus/4, Tandy 2 CoCo, TRS-80 1 CoCo, (3) IBM PC Jr's, Intellivision, Misl Books & Manuals, and loads of other Junk.. It sure was a fun day, now I have some new gadgets to play with... !!!! Phil... From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 4 20:48:29 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? Message-ID: <199810050148.AA01439@world.std.com> < Actually, there is some value in experimenting with strange CPU < architectures, parallel machines, reconfigurable hardware, etc. Not < everything has been done before. Sometimes things that have been done before can be done more cleverly or economically making it worth doing again. < > No, I'm not. How many people are there in Boston who do this stuff? < > 5? That's not much information. And a web site inspires no one. More likely 100 times that. First off you have all those nutty MIT students. The those like me and I've met a few people that are in the running the last few months. Web site that provice inforation, tools, tricks abound and are not to inspire but to assist. Inspiration is is an internal event. < dispute this. It's a lot easier to get information now than it was 10 < years ago. I've had to try to convince a semiconductor company that they < should send me a data sheet on a microprocessor. Now I just grab it off Information was always available, just had to get off ones bottom and go look. I was in the local library and picked up three books on VAX archetecture and left another few behind regarding VMS. Books on electronics and circuits easily filled 20 linear feet of shelves. All free. Allison From fzammett at voicenet.com Sun Oct 4 20:59:44 1998 From: fzammett at voicenet.com (Frank W. Zammetti) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Potential projects References: <199810050148.AA01439@world.std.com> Message-ID: <36182810.BD14C5D1@voicenet.com> This is somewhat off topic I suppose, but then again it isn't in another way! I watched a two hour special today on the evolution of the computer industry over the past ten years. It was basically a story about guys like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, etc. Watching it I started to think that I have as much or more talent and ability than these guys did (gratuitous horn-tooting going on here!) The thing they had that I don't is a good idea to exploit (or a good idea to steal in the case of Bill, but I'll leave that alone!). My question to you all is this: does anyone have a good idea for an application that could potentially be very popular and profitable for me to create that you wouldn't mind sharing? I realize this is like asking you all to give me money since if the idea is that good you probably wouldn't want to share it anyway!, but if someone had a good idea I'd certainly be willing to consider a partner or partners. Basically at this point I'm asking for input in a brainstorming session really. Thanks for any help anyone cares to give! Frank W. Zammetti Programmer/Analyst/System Engineer From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 4 21:15:15 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810050215.AA20101@world.std.com> < But neither the 11/10 nor the /34 nor the /44 were, by any stretch < of the imagination, "microcomputers". Definitely minis. Since you put it that way true, but I see that as marginally significant as they are still PDP-11. Sorta like running OS8 on a 6100... Smaller CMOS and still a PDP-8 for all intents. What would be the first NON-PDP-11 micro to run unix? that would be significant as it's a truly distinct port. Allison From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 4 23:12:50 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: VCF Nerd Trivia Challenge Questions & Answers In-Reply-To: <36173974.A8A03484@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > The Sun company name is derived from > > this college acronym. > > > > Stanford University Network > > Is this from Bill Joy? Is he trying to make sure that Um, this is pretty well-known lore. > Hell, even guys from Stanford don't name their companies > after the school -- the closest I can think is Cromemco, > founded by 3? guys who hung out in the Crowder Memorial > building, I think it was a dormitory when they were there. Crothers Memorial Hall. > > Korn, Bourne and C are all versions of > > this. > > > > Unix command shells > > Technically, they are all _examples_ of this, not > versions. Especially since there are _versions_ of > each that work under MS-DOS (for instance). Correct. It should have been worded as you suggest. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From aaron at wfi-inc.com Mon Oct 5 00:24:53 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Qbus card info needed... Message-ID: Hi all, I got a Plessey PDP-11 clone from John Lawson today and was just poking around at the cards. I thought I'd check to see if anyone had any info on some of the non-DEC stuff in there: 1. Peritek, video board, "VIURAM VRG-Q11" - there is a cable plugged into the 10-pin connector on this one, which ends in a single BNC plug. What kind of video does this output? Any ideas on what kind of display I could use? 2. Plessey, memory, p/n M8044DK and p/n M 8044 DB 3. Plessey, multifunction p/n PM-MFV11A 4. Standard Memories, ???, MM-148 - this board has 4 rows of MCM6665 64k rams and a toggle switch on the handle edge. There are two led's, one labeled "PWR OFF" and one labeled "ON RUN." There is also an 8-position DIP switch toward the connector side. Thanks in advance, Aaron From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 4 23:49:27 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Tony Cole and the Crays In-Reply-To: <199810041435.KAA16069@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Lawrence Walker wrote: > I was just looking thru a Tab book from 1988 on byo comps. and the author > mentions a Tony Cole as head of a mother board supplier the V.I.P.C. Company. > Wonder if it's the same guy before his Cray notoriety. Certainly not. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 4 23:37:52 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <199810041347.JAA06584@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > Tron was done with a Foonly PDP10 clone. > > I believe the first microcomputer to run Unix was the DEC PDP11/03 and > 11/23 at At&T's Bell Labs (see the papers on mini-unix). Microprocessor-based computer? Read the question again. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 4 23:15:18 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > If it was on the same table as the Digital Group Z80, then that was Hal > Layer's table (although it was Chuck McManis' Z80). I still don't know what computer we are talking about. Did anyone actual check out Hal's Z-Byte cards? I think they are incredibly clever. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 4 23:14:28 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Convergent Technologies workSlate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > You're familiar with the TRS-80 Model 100? Imagine something with about > the same form-factor, built the same year, but with built-in spreadsheet, > microcassette tape drive, speaker phone, and voice annotation! It was > also colored black and looked much cooler than the TRS-80 thing. And half the thickness. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 4 23:48:34 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > Well, that's kind of the feeling I get. I want to bring the folks who are > > quietly inventing cool things in their garages back out into the open. I > > think it would be great to revive the old Homebrew Computer Club here in > > the Silicon Valley. > > What a pity it's 6000 miles away :-(. This is the sort of thing that I > wish would happen in the UK. You can bet I'd join up. Start it! See if there are enough folks in your area with an interest to merit monthly meetings and go from there. If there aren't, well then at least you tried. But you'll never known until you put the call out. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 4 23:42:31 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > What is the 'pratical purpose' in playing video games? Sure they're an > entertainment. But there is no real point in getting a high score, right? > Building a CPU should be like that. It's entertaining. It's a hobby. And > for me, the feeling I get when it runs its first instruction almost > certainly exceeds any feeling I would get from a video game (OK, so I > don't like games much, but you get the point). Actually, I think I can relate more to getting a good feeling when something I'm creating works for the first time. Video games never really did it for me. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 4 23:56:53 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <199810041548.AA20384@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > Yes the 14500 industrial control unit. It did not do serial arithmetic > but did do logical operation based on two single bit operands. It was > intended to be a controller to replace simple relay trees. > > That however, is far different from systems that were bit serial as that > was done to reduce the number of redundant logic elements needed (at the > expense of speed) and often these serial machines had very long > instruction and data words with 31bits not unheard of. Ray Holt's F14 microprocessor was serial to cut down on component count. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 4 23:45:48 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > yourself. That's no longer true. But there is a pretty strong homebrew > > aircraft movement, and it also still makes sense for robotics. > > So homebrew a robot. After all, a robot is just a somewhat unusual > computer peripheral, right ;-). You don't need expensive tools to make a > simple robot arm using those servos from radio-controller models. Just > hand tools (hacksaw, drill, screwdrivers, pliers). I built a robot arm from no plans about 9 years ago using simple parts and sheet metal in a Computer Interfacing course at community college. I never completed it as time ran out and I didn't have enough electronics skills to finish the Apple ][ interface board. It was also too top heavy. Once I get some time (there's that line again) I plan to re-design it and get it to work, AND control it from my Apple //e. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From rax at warbaby.com Mon Oct 5 02:33:22 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:05 2005 Subject: They still use Commodores in Nova Scotia Message-ID: Surfing the back alleys of the Internet today, I found an ISP in Nova Scotia that has downloads of Internet access and utilities software for Commodores, Apple II's, and Atari's. Cool. Chebucto Net http://ccn.cs.dal.ca The download page is at http://ccn.cs.dal.ca/Services/PDA/PDA.html -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 00:23:22 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Here comes the Hurricane In-Reply-To: <36177D6E.38FBB19D@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Phil Clayton wrote: > To celebrate I went up to Orlando to a Hamfest, then spent the entire > day (10 Hours) hunting down classic computers at Thrift stores there. I > found the following goodies: Kaypro 10, Kaypro 16, Mattel Aquaruis, > Commodore Plus/4, Tandy 2 CoCo, TRS-80 1 CoCo, (3) IBM PC Jr's, > Intellivision, Misl Books & Manuals, and loads of other Junk.. It sure > was a fun day, now I have some new gadgets to play with... !!!! I'm glad for you, but that just means more computers to worry about when the next killer hurricane comes a courtin! (DOH! Always the cynic! :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 00:56:15 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Cheap "variac"? Message-ID: Today at a local flea market, I picked up a PRO (Made in Taiwan) Soldering Iron Controller. It has a three-prong power outlet and a heavy duty potentiometer for controlling the voltage level of the outlet. The labeling indicates "MAX. 800 WATTS-120 V.A.C." My math tells me that this unit can handle a maximum of 6 amps. Would this be safe to use as a variac on, say, a sparsely loaded IMSAI? It was only a buck. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 00:10:43 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: The 'Geek' deifned? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981004124641.007339ec@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, James Willing wrote: > Appearing quite stylish at work this week in my 'Geek' t-shirt from the > VCF, someone approached with a somewhat unexpected question: > > "So, what does 'Geek' mean anyway?" > <...> > Any other 'takes' on a definition for this? (word rather than concept) A "geek" was a circus freak that bit the heads off of chickens (and/or snakes according to my collegiate dictionary). My how the definition has changed, although I am known to bite the heads off of small furry creatures occasionally when I channel the undead spirit of Ozzy Osbourne. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Oct 5 01:39:52 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199810050636.XAA27636@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Yup, I bought 10 decks. I'm taking them to a conference too see if I can generate some clever lads into a new card game or two... --Chuck (Who only ever found Bridge to be an interesting card game) At 09:15 PM 10/4/98 -0700, you wrote: >On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > >> If it was on the same table as the Digital Group Z80, then that was Hal >> Layer's table (although it was Chuck McManis' Z80). > >I still don't know what computer we are talking about. > >Did anyone actual check out Hal's Z-Byte cards? I think they are >incredibly clever. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 00:05:02 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > I am totally useless at organising anything. There is no way I could find > a suitable venue, book it, organise talks, etc. I wouldn't know where to > start. Its easier than it seems. Just a lot of work. > Then there's the total lack of money. Owing to the fact that I have no I can vouch for that. It does require a goodly sum of money to do an event decently. Be prepared for losses. > Now if somebody else wants to handle the admin side and get some money > in, then I am quite happy to help with the technical side of things. But > I am not going to attempt to organise a VCF-like event on my own. Its doable, but I wouldn't recommend it. :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 02:33:25 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Working PDP-10 anyone? Message-ID: Does anyone know off-hand where there might be a complete, working PDP-10 system? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 5 03:22:13 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:37:52 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981005082213.10162.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > I believe the first microcomputer to run Unix was the DEC PDP11/03 and > 11/23 at At&T's Bell Labs (see the papers on mini-unix). Sam replied: > Microprocessor-based computer? Read the question again. Well, if you count a multiple-chip MOS VLSI CPU implementation as a microprocessor-based computer, the 11/03 and 11/23 both qualify. And if you don't count multi-chip implementations as microprocessors, then the F-14 computer did not use a microprocessor. You can't have it both ways. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 5 03:34:58 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Working PDP-10 anyone? In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Mon, 5 Oct 1998 00:33:25 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981005083458.10246.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Does anyone know off-hand where there might be a complete, working PDP-10 > system? Assuming that you don't count XKL machines, the nearest operational system I know of is in Washington state. Unless perhaps the Bootstrap Institute (www.bootstrap.org) is still running AUGMENT on their DECSYSTEM-20. Scott and I hope to get our DECsystem-1090 operational someday, but it can't be accurately described as a "complete, working PDP-10 system" at present. Why do you ask? Cheers, Eric From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Oct 5 07:23:37 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: KL-10 Emulation Underway In-Reply-To: <00a901bdefd1$65ff10a0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: <13393334474.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Willing to help] Cool! I'm about to post another update, so you'll want to fetch it... I guess what's needed at the moment is someone testing these instructions to see if they do The Right Thing. All I ever do is crock up the code for them, I haven't done any other testing other than "does it compile". Have you done assembler on a real 10 before? If not, you'll need the manual from 36bit.org, the Processor Refrence Manual. Just start shoving instructions at it, and let me know what's broken! We already have a guy working on the math required, and I'm pushing out as many instructions as I can - We seem to be doing well at the moment. We just aren't testing any of it... ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Oct 5 07:24:18 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: KL-10 Emulation Underway In-Reply-To: <00a901bdefd1$65ff10a0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: <13393334600.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Previous Message] Was not intended for the list. Sorry... ------- From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 5 08:47:30 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Back / VCF / SUN Message-ID: <199810051229.OAA18292@marina.fth.sbs.de> Servus, back home, and back to the list. Thanks to all for VCF 2.0. It was just fun. And Sam, maybe you should offer another T-shirt next year for the 'day after': I survived VCF 3.0 (but my wallet didn't survive the flea market) :)) And the worst of all - my wish list is expanding: I've seen some real neat things out there (Teachers PET, SWTP 6800, Black Apple ][, Timex Coco's ...), and of coure now I need any material from / for 'The Digital Group' computers (Hi Chuck). And, And, And ... -------------------- And now something of topic: I need some help for_actual_ SUN HW. We have (want) to order a Desktop unit, but I have no idea, so I need independent info (not form a sales man trying to sell his leftovers). If anyone is into the matter, pls. send me an e-mail for further info. I would apreciate any help. Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Oct 5 07:33:05 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Working PDP-10 anyone? In-Reply-To: <19981005083458.10246.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <13393336199.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Unless Bootstrap is still running...] Alas, I was made aware that bootstrap is now a copy of KLH10. The KL was shut down a few months ago. They did save the hardware though - One of their sysadmins took it home with him. ------- From info at annalee.com Mon Oct 5 08:13:10 1998 From: info at annalee.com (Annalee.Com Info) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Removal Message-ID: <01BDF040.60A45EC0@laco2-11.worldpath.net> Please send me info about how to remove addresses from your list serve. I need to remove to addresses OTHER that the one that this mail is being sent from. From handyman at sprintmail.com Sun Oct 4 20:58:41 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Internet software for an XT computer References: Message-ID: <361827D1.4A6B56BA@sprintmail.com> I'm sure I have read before that some users on the forum use internet software for accessing the internet that will run on old XT running DOS (Text only)..? Would someone tell me where I could get a copy of this software.. Thanks.. Phil... From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 09:34:11 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <19981005082213.10162.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 5 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > > Microprocessor-based computer? Read the question again. > > Well, if you count a multiple-chip MOS VLSI CPU implementation as a > microprocessor-based computer, the 11/03 and 11/23 both qualify. > > And if you don't count multi-chip implementations as microprocessors, then > the F-14 computer did not use a microprocessor. I knew someone would catch that. Who came up with this question, damnit? Anyway, the F14 CADC SLF chip can be classified as a single-chip microprocessor. I say "can" because you've get a different definition of microprocessor depending on whom you ask. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From scottk5 at ibm.net Mon Oct 5 09:24:06 1998 From: scottk5 at ibm.net (Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Internet software for an XT computer In-Reply-To: <361827D1.4A6B56BA@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Phil Clayton wrote: > I'm sure I have read before that some users on the forum use internet > software for accessing the internet that will run on old XT running DOS > (Text only)..? > Would someone tell me where I could get a copy of this software.. > Thanks.. > Phil... Phil: The program you want is "Nettamer" and you can get it from garbo.uwasa.fi in the /pc/connect/ directory; filename: n1101xt.zip It's great, it was the first program I used to surf the 'Net on my XT! Kirk Scott scottk5@ibm.net From william at ans.net Mon Oct 5 10:42:04 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: For sale stuff gone. Message-ID: OK, all of the stuff is now spoken for. I had to flip a few coins on some of it, as there was demand for some of the things. Sorry to anyone that lost the coin toss - I wish I had more. I am still looking for those IBM 5103 ribbons. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 5 09:51:18 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: FW: pdp11/44 free to good home in TX In-Reply-To: References: <3616b09a.470600698@smtp.wa.jps.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981005095118.00f74430@pc> At 04:34 PM 10/3/98 -0700, you wrote: > >I'm telling you, its the Y2K scare. You'll start to see more and more of >this hardware become available as people start to panic. I'm frightened to realize that you're serious. Great, let's start scaring them even more, to increase our collections. :-) - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 5 09:43:01 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Pentiums, 486s wanted In-Reply-To: <199810022349.TAA20782@commercial.cgocable.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981005094301.00f7c960@pc> I've got a number of motherboards that need P-50 to P-133s, as well as 486s. If anyone has a cache of these they'd like to unload cheap, contact me. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 5 10:28:32 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <199810032326.TAA28103@smtp.interlog.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981005102832.00ced620@pc> At 09:03 AM 10/4/98 -0400, Doug Spence wrote: >There was a commercial product called either DOS-2-DOS or DISK-2-DISK (I >forget which) which was able to access 1541 disks on a filesystem level, >for reading AND writing. That company was Central Coast Software, run by George Chamberlin. He sold out to New Horizons, another pioneer Amiga company. Eventually NH's assets (including all the source code) were auctioned off and went at a discount price to a Canajun company whose name included the word "wonder", and I don't know what happened to it after that. I bid in the auction and missed it by a few hundred bucks. I wanted to take all their products, source and docs, and sell them on a CD as is. I have Dos-2-Dos (for DOS disks) and Disk-2-Disk (for C64 disks) in my archives, along with the adapter cables to connect your 1541 or Amiga 5 1/4 drive. I've used the freeware copier, too, with the motor-speed tweak to read 1541 disks on the Amiga, as well as the parallel-port to 1541 DIN version for the PC. However, I'd really like to find someone with knowledge of cracking old C-64 protection schemes. My friends and I made a few games with protection schemes, and we can't remember what we did, and so we have no way to run our old games in an emulator. :-) >BTW, there's an excellent article by Betty Clay entitled "Amiga Disk >Encoding Schemes" in Volume 3, Issue 1 of Amiga Transactor magazine. That >article, plus the Amiga Hardware Reference Manual and RKM: Libraries & >Devices were my starting points for the project. You can reach Betty at <76702.337@compuserve.com>. She's quite a character, one of the sysops of the Amiga area on Compuserve. She's an ex-schoolteacher from Texas. Knew Amiga assembler better than I did. I'm intrigued by the ideas for dirt-simple bit-streaming digitizing hardware for rescuing old floppy data. Digitizing the strength of the signal on the disk would go a long way to rescue old data, I think, breaking the reliance on the old intermediate hardware to turn it into a recognizable bitstream. I recall that one of our list members does this sort of trick with old reel tapes: digitize the channels, reconstruct at leisure using today's cheap hard disk space and CPU time. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 5 10:09:30 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Tron, con't In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981005100930.00cc1570@pc> Regarding Tron and the recollection of friend-of-a-friend-who-worked there anecdotes, it reminds me of what's still happening in the computer graphics business today: everyone wants to take credit for what's on the screen. For example, the company I work for, Viewpoint DataLabs , did the modelling for the recent movies Godzilla and ANTZ. What does this mean? It means our artists and 3D modelers created some of the data used by some other company's animators. Of course, our PR people trumpet the fact that Viewpoint made Godzilla. Well, we made the computer model by digitizing and finesse-ing some big rubber scale models made by someone else. And it goes on and on... some other company does the animating, someone else does the rendering, someone else does the compositing of real and fake images, someone else produced it, someone else funded this or that, someone else's 3D software was used to render it. At Siggraph, the industry's big trade show, the Kingston memory chip booth wasn't far from our booth, and they spent the week telling people to buy their memory because it was used in the machines that rendered scenes from Titanic. Back to Tron, though - three-four years ago, I remember meeting someone at a Siggraph who claimed to have worked on Tron, and who still had a copy of the original computer 3D models. I think he was a Caucasian wearing a robe and Sikh-like turban, but my memory may be faulty. If the truth is ever documented, I'm sure Tron was assembled using what equipment they could afford, and whatever could get the job done to the satisfaction of those paying the bills. - John From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Oct 5 10:57:41 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Tron, con't In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981005100930.00cc1570@pc> from "John Foust" at Oct 5, 98 10:09:30 am Message-ID: <199810051557.IAA17034@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 928 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/b8327f60/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Oct 5 11:05:25 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981005102832.00ced620@pc> from "John Foust" at Oct 5, 98 10:28:32 am Message-ID: <199810051605.JAA17020@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2241 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/05efcd6e/attachment.ksh From arfonrg at texas.net Mon Oct 5 11:03:20 1998 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: PDP-9 In-Reply-To: <19981002234553.32620.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19981002170244.0093fc20@texas.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981005110320.00964100@texas.net> >> By my faulty memory, the actual computer is about 2.5'W x 1'H x 2.5L. >> Warning, they are HEAVY! > >Your memory is faulty. The computer occupies several 72" racks. You >must be thinking of a PDP-8/e or something. > >Reference: Computer Engineering: a DEC View of Hardware System Design You sure about that?? We had a PDP-9 running some Radio station Automation equipment and the actual PDP unit was that one 'silver' box in the picture. Our other racks were the tape players and interface boards. Arfon From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 5 11:18:56 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: PDP-9 Message-ID: <199810051618.AA00766@world.std.com> < >> By my faulty memory, the actual computer is about 2.5'W x 1'H x 2.5L < >> Warning, they are HEAVY! The PDP-8I was about that size and that was a year or two later than the -9. The -9 has to be bigger. < You sure about that?? We had a PDP-9 running some Radio station Automat < equipment and the actual PDP unit was that one 'silver' box in the pictu < Our other racks were the tape players and interface boards. Everyone thought the 8I was 13" high(size of front pannel) but the box/backplane was nearly three times that. Anyhow the size of front pannels are often deceptive. Allison From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Oct 5 11:22:48 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Info needed on Godbout Econorom 2708 Message-ID: I slight curiosity I've hit upon, and was wondering if anyone might have the docs on this board at hand to help sort it out. I've got a couple of Godbout 'Econorom' 2708 boards, which from the legend and markings on the board seem to imply that it is intended to be used with 2708 Eproms. The oddity becomes, I've got one that is full of 2732 Eproms (it came that way). And of course, if I've got the docs on it they are buried in the warehouse somewhere... (sigh) So, I'm wondering if this board is actually configurable for different Eproms, and if so, does anyone have the specs at hand? (ideally, I'd like to know how to configure it for 2716 Eproms) Thanks! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 5 11:39:26 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Info needed on Godbout Econorom 2708 Message-ID: <199810051639.AA20333@world.std.com> < I've got a couple of Godbout 'Econorom' 2708 boards, which from the lege < and markings on the board seem to imply that it is intended to be used < with 2708 Eproms. If it says Econorom and 2708 that is true. < So, I'm wondering if this board is actually configurable for different < Eproms, and if so, does anyone have the specs at hand? (ideally, I'd li < to know how to configure it for 2716 Eproms) It was not. That board was likely hacked for 2732 as the basic board was 2708 only. Fyi: the hack would be significant as 2708 was a three volage part! Or it could simple be filled with 2732s for no good reason. Allison From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Oct 5 11:48:33 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Info needed on Godbout Econorom 2708 Message-ID: I'm pretty sure I have those docs, let me check tonight. I know for sure I have the docs for the CompuPro labeled one, which may or may not be a later version. I've been entering all my docs in a database the past few days, and I'm about 2/3 done. Already at 350+! I'm finding all sorts of interesting tidbits stuck into the binders, such as the original brochure for the IMSAI, copies of Ohio Scientific's magazine/newsletter, etc. Kai -----Original Message----- From: James Willing [mailto:jimw@agora.rdrop.com] Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 9:23 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Info needed on Godbout Econorom 2708 I slight curiosity I've hit upon, and was wondering if anyone might have the docs on this board at hand to help sort it out. I've got a couple of Godbout 'Econorom' 2708 boards, which from the legend and markings on the board seem to imply that it is intended to be used with 2708 Eproms. The oddity becomes, I've got one that is full of 2732 Eproms (it came that way). And of course, if I've got the docs on it they are buried in the warehouse somewhere... (sigh) So, I'm wondering if this board is actually configurable for different Eproms, and if so, does anyone have the specs at hand? (ideally, I'd like to know how to configure it for 2716 Eproms) Thanks! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Oct 5 11:50:39 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: VCF Press Clippings Message-ID: Any news on the airtimes for the ZDTV and CNET pieces? -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail [mailto:dastar@ncal.verio.com] Sent: Friday, October 02, 1998 9:50 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: VCF Press Clippings Allow me to introduce you to my vanity: http://www.vintage.org/vcf/press.htm VCF press clippings for the past year or so. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From cad at gamewood.net Mon Oct 5 11:52:07 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Info needed on Godbout Econorom 2708 References: Message-ID: <3618F937.4A63@gamewood.net> James Willing wrote: > > I slight curiosity I've hit upon, and was wondering if anyone might have > the docs on this board at hand to help sort it out. > > I've got a couple of Godbout 'Econorom' 2708 boards, which from the legend > and markings on the board seem to imply that it is intended to be used > with 2708 Eproms. > > The oddity becomes, I've got one that is full of 2732 Eproms (it came that > way). And of course, if I've got the docs on it they are buried in the > warehouse somewhere... (sigh) > > So, I'm wondering if this board is actually configurable for different > Eproms, and if so, does anyone have the specs at hand? (ideally, I'd like > to know how to configure it for 2716 Eproms) > > Thanks! > -jim > --- > jimw@agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 The only reason that I can think of for it to be stuffed full of 2732's, is that someone had programs/program segments on the EPPROMs. I would submit that you might find some interesting stuff there. Take a look. Chuck From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Oct 5 12:08:11 1998 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Textronix 4025 terminal seen In-Reply-To: <199810030702.AAA25146@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: All, Spotted a (what I regard as) classic terminal the other day. It was at A-Tex electronics in San Antonio (if your phone book isn't that new, call the Altex electronics and ask for their recently spun-off parts division near the airpont). It was not in good shape - several keycaps broken off, scratched, very dirty, no manual. It was $25 as is, and I had no chance to power up and see how it is. Also the missing manual hurts, because a lot of the very cool and well-thought-out graphics instructions are called by escape sequences that I don't remember at all. If I remember right, the 4025 was Tek's start at transitioning off the long-lasting phosphor technology into a regular bit-mapped display. Istr that it had maybe 2 Z-80's and about 64k of RAM, which was not bad at the time (late 70's to 1980 or so?) for a whole system, to say nothing of a terminal. It had a pair of thumbwheels for cursor control. It felt and looked industrial strength and was a pleasure to use. Anybody remember more useful info about it? - Mark From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 5 12:24:42 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Tony Cole and the Crays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > I was just looking thru a Tab book from 1988 on byo comps. and the author > > mentions a Tony Cole as head of a mother board supplier the V.I.P.C. Company. > > Wonder if it's the same guy before his Cray notoriety. On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Certainly not. Really? I bought a VIPC generic clone from Tony Cole for a friend, long, long ago. I had a Computer Faire booth across the aisle from him when he had built a "super clone" with gold plated case that got him a LOT of free ink and magazine cover pictures. I remember the newsbit when he got his first Cray in an auction. He recognized me, said hello, and told me about VCF at Foothill (although there is no reason to assume that he would have remembered my name). Sure SEEMED like the same guy. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Oct 5 12:53:41 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay Message-ID: Somebody's posted a Commodore C65 prototype on eBay. 4 days left and the bidding is at $1025. Kai From heavy at ctesc.net Mon Oct 5 12:55:36 1998 From: heavy at ctesc.net (Jim Weiler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Xerox Stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981005094301.00f7c960@pc> References: <199810022349.TAA20782@commercial.cgocable.net> Message-ID: Anybody need the following: 10 - New in box 8R413 Multistrike Typewriter/Printer ribbons 2 - Opened (at least 1) 8R2454 10-cycle Typewriter/Printer Cleaning Kits 7 - New in box 9R80229 8" Floppy Head Cleaning Kits (each kit has two cleaning diskettes Make me an offer. They're not too bad, to ship. -Jim "Recycleable" is the politically-correct term for "Garbage" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ mailto:heavy@ctesc.net * Jim Weiler * http://pages.tstar.net/~heavy http://home.talkcity.com/MigrationPath/blackbeardtcc/index.html ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Oct 5 13:04:41 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Oct 5, 98 10:53:41 am Message-ID: <199810051804.LAA18980@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 567 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/550d3f63/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 5 13:39:54 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Mon, 5 Oct 1998 07:34:11 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981005183954.12470.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sam wrote: > Anyway, the F14 CADC SLF chip can be classified as a single-chip > microprocessor. I say "can" because you've get a different definition of > microprocessor depending on whom you ask. OK, let us know the definition, so that we can decide whether the LSI-11 chip set also qualifies as a microprocessor. Then we can settle the trivia question regarding which microprocessor-based Unix system came first. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 5 13:44:14 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: FW: pdp11/44 free to good home in TX In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981005095118.00f74430@pc> (message from John Foust on Mon, 05 Oct 1998 09:51:18 -0500) References: <3616b09a.470600698@smtp.wa.jps.net> <3.0.1.32.19981005095118.00f74430@pc> Message-ID: <19981005184414.12494.qmail@brouhaha.com> Someone wrote: > I'm telling you, its the Y2K scare. You'll start to see more and more of > this hardware become available as people start to panic. John Foust replied: > I'm frightened to realize that you're serious. Great, let's start > scaring them even more, to increase our collections. :-) I'm not sure this is such a great idea. IMNSHO, the biggest Y2K problems will not be caused by actual computer problems, but by people's fear of computer problems. I'm expecting a run on the banks, and it appears that I'm not just being paranoid; the Fed is expecting it as well and has printed an extra $5e9 in cash to try to cope with it. On the other hand, if you have some plan that involves benefitting from a run on the banks, I'd be interested in hearing about it. :-) Eric From bill at chipware.com Mon Oct 5 13:55:44 1998 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Working PDP-10 anyone? Message-ID: <01BDF070.3C38A2F0@yamato.chipware.com> Already looking for next years VCF door prize? -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail [SMTP:dastar@ncal.verio.com] Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 3:33 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Working PDP-10 anyone? Does anyone know off-hand where there might be a complete, working PDP-10 system? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2210 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/8da0dc17/attachment.bin From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Oct 5 13:55:36 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Working PDP-10 anyone? In-Reply-To: <19981005083458.10246.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 5, 98 08:34:58 am Message-ID: <199810051855.LAA22561@saul5.u.washington.edu> > Assuming that you don't count XKL machines, the nearest operational system I > know of is in Washington state. Unless perhaps the Bootstrap Institute > (www.bootstrap.org) is still running AUGMENT on their DECSYSTEM-20. Where in Washington were you thinking of? My university had one but it was sold a few years ago. I don't know where it ended up. I didn't realize the Bootstrap Instutute used -10 hardware! That's really interesting. I've been meaning to ask them about playing with their soft- ware (it's something I've been interested in). -- Derek From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 12:38:13 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Qbus card info needed... In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Oct 4, 98 10:24:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 721 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/0715186a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 12:15:45 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <19981005012848.8628.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 5, 98 01:28:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 610 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/e6586c7c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 12:48:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Cheap "variac"? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 4, 98 10:56:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 964 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/b49d5458/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 12:29:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 4, 98 09:37:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 689 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/e15f19eb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 12:33:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 4, 98 09:48:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 312 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/3c8d008a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 12:31:21 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 4, 98 09:42:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 384 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/9bcb4d89/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 12:36:02 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 4, 98 10:05:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1027 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/e88a2c40/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 5 14:43:45 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Floppy format: FM/MFM, & Tracj Layout In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [Haven't located my old files yet, so here's a quick discussion] FM FM (AKA Single Density) simply has a regular clock pulse. In between clock pulses there is either a pulse to represent a ONE, or no pulse to represent a ZERO. If you look at a long string of ZERO bits, all you will see will be clock pulses, at the clock pulse rate. For 8" disks, that is typically 250K. For 5.25" that is typically 125K. If you look at a stream of ONE bits, you have the same clock pulses, with a data pulse between each of them, thereby making the combined signal have pulses at twice the frequency of the ZERO bit stream. Thus, the two frequencies give rise to the name Frequency modulation. It wasn't until MUCH later that it got the name "SINGLE DENSITY" - that only came about because the marketing people chose to call MFM "Double density", after which they needed a name for the "NON-double density". Very similar to the way that World War I was NOT called that until there was already substantial talk about a World War II. MFM A fundamental problem with trying to pack data onto a drive is that the bits (whether data or clock) can not be squeezed too close together. If they COULD, then all that would be needed would be to increase the data transfer rate to increase the density. THAT is the only difference between "Double Density" and "High Density". With some minor improvements in Data Separation, drive quality, and media quality, another solution opened up. Although we can't go very far between pulses (data or clock) without getting out of synch, it could be possible to leave out some of the clock pulses, so long as either the previous bit cell or the following bit cell contains a data pulse. That results in each bit cell needing EITHER a clock pulse OR a data pulse, but NOT needing both. That spreads the pulses out to about half the density. By then doubling the data transfer rate, we end up with approximately the same physical density of pulses (flux transitions) on the track, but representing twice as much data. "Quad" density was a marketing term for ordinary MFM double density with tracks closer together, at 96TPI instead of 48 TPI. "High" density is MFM double density with twice the data transfer rate (500K v 250K), providing 15 SPT on 5.25", and 18 SPT on 3.5", instead of 9 SPT. They couldn't quite double the number of sectors on the 5.25" because they were running at 360RPM instead of 300RPM. They ALSO went to 96 TPI on the 5.25" (1.2M) Track Layout MOST (except Amiga) MFM or FM disk formats use "IBM style" sectors. That name preceded the PC, and refers to their original use on 3740! Each sector, whose size must be a power of 2, starting at 128 bytes per sector, has a header, and some interesting gaps and other overhead. The header contains four numbers, plus a CRC. The four numbers are the Cylinder number, the Head number, the sector size (where 0 represents 128, 1 is 256, 2 is 512, 3 is 1024, etc.), and the sector number. Even though the drive presumably knows which track and head it is on, it uses the sector number in the header to find the right sector, and can use the rest of the header data for confirmation. "Sector Not Found" means that on the track the computer could not find any sector with the header that it was looking for. "Seek error" means that it found sector headers with track (cylinder) numbers other than what it expected. Occasionally a format will have "creative" values in the headers. For example, the double sided Kaypro formats used a WD FDC chip, and ignored parts of the header. BOTH sides of the disk that they format put a 0 in the head number field! That means that a PC trying to read a Kaypro DOUBLE SIDED disk MUST go below the BIOS level, in order to be looking for a header that conflicts with the physical location. Gaps (MFM) It is a BAD idea to begin a track too soon after the index that marks the beginning. Therefore, the first part of any track is a gap. Then we get to the first sector. There are about a dozen bytes to get synchronized. (We're not sure EXACTLY where it started to read, and it wouldn't do to be out of synch and using the last half of one byte with the beginning of the next.) Then there is a "corruption" of the MFM encoding to mark the boundary. That is called the Index Address Mark. It consists of three A1 bytes with the clock pulse between bits 4 and 5 missing, followed by an FE byte. Then we have the C,H,R,N data of the header, followed by a 16 bit CRC just to be sure that that data hadn't been corrupted. Then there is another gap - if we were going to be writing a sector, we would need to READ the header to find the right one, and then get ready to write. So, therefore, we'll need another set of synch bytes, and another address mark for marking the exact beginning of the data. The DATA ADDRESS MARK is an FB. Then we have the sector data. Then we have another 16 bit CRC to make sure that the data wasn't corrupted. Then we have a moderately substantial gap of at least a few dozen bytes before the next sector. Each sector repeats that sequence. Then, after the last sector, there is a gap until the end of the track. Size on it will be different, of course, for different formats, and it can vary a bit in length due to variations in rotational speed, etc. FM diskettes are essentially the same, except for the sizes of the gaps. And FM supports a few additional Address Marks. F8, F9, FA, and FB ?? Tandy (and Randy Cook) chose to use the special "Deleted Data" address marks for their DIRectory track on the TRS-80! To compound it, the address mark that they chose was one that could be read, but not written by the 179x FDC chips, resulting in a situation that their own Model 3 could not write a valid Model 1 diskette, and they had to change operating systems on the model 1. But that's another story. All of those "bizarre" gaps and structures are necessary to be able to read and write a single sector without disturbing the rest of the sectors on the disk. An alternative possibility would be to read and write the entire track at a time, and parse the sectors from a track image in memory. That software intensive system is what the Amiga does. It therefore doesn't NEED those gaps, and can therefore squeeze more sectors onto a track. It also means that the Amiga could read a track into an image in memory from some other format and attempt to make sense out of it. That's why the Amiga is hardware capable of reading a PC diskette, but it is IMPOSSIBLE for a PC (unless with a completely different non-standard FDC) to read an Amiga diskette. Due to the use of the FDC chip on the disk controller, PCs can NOT read any format that does NOT have sectors with such structures and gaps. But, since that is what is "normally" wanted, it works just fine, and it IS capable, with appropriate software (what I do), to read a LOT of other "alien" formats. If it is necessary to read something without such sector structures and gaps, then it requires different controller circuitry, such as the Option Board, or maybe CatWeasel (I haven't seen one yet, and understand that there are currently some software deficiencies.) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From lfb107 at psu.edu Mon Oct 5 15:06:56 1998 From: lfb107 at psu.edu (Les Berry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Internet software for an XT computer Message-ID: <199810052004.QAA81338@f04n07.cac.psu.edu> At 09:24 AM 10/5/98 -0500, Kirk Scott wrote: > > >On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Phil Clayton wrote: > >> I'm sure I have read before that some users on the forum use internet >> software for accessing the internet that will run on old XT running DOS >> (Text only)..? >> Would someone tell me where I could get a copy of this software.. >> Thanks.. >> Phil... > >Phil: > >The program you want is "Nettamer" and you can get it from garbo.uwasa.fi >in the /pc/connect/ directory; filename: n1101xt.zip > >It's great, it was the first program I used to surf the 'Net on my XT! > >Kirk Scott You might also want to check into something called Arachne. Although it lists a 386 as a "minimum," the docs say it should run on any x86 with an EGA or VGA card. BTW, Arachne is basically a graphical web browser with (i think) ppp or slip buillt in. (Runs under DOS too) Les From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Oct 5 15:19:32 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Internet software for an XT computer In-Reply-To: <199810052004.QAA81338@f04n07.cac.psu.edu> from "Les Berry" at Oct 5, 98 04:06:56 pm Message-ID: <199810052019.OAA31443@calico.litterbox.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 429 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/a9a8f6f8/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 5 16:19:53 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:06 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810052119.AA03004@world.std.com> < Sam wrote: < > Anyway, the F14 CADC SLF chip can be classified as a single-chip < > microprocessor. I say "can" because you've get a different definition < > microprocessor depending on whom you ask. < < OK, let us know the definition, so that we can decide whether the LSI-1 < chip set also qualifies as a microprocessor. Then we can settle the tri < question regarding which microprocessor-based Unix system came first. Dec sold the LSI-11 and later chip based systems as microcomputers. Source for this is the bindings of not less than 7 databooks and technical descriptions. Also the T-11 member of the family is a single 40pin dip with one die inside. If that werent' the case the fairchild F8 would not qualify as a single chip CPU due to the need for multiple chips and the same would apply to the predecessor to the RCA CDP1802. allison From kozmik at wave.home.com Mon Oct 5 16:52:37 1998 From: kozmik at wave.home.com (Dominique Cormann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: <199810051804.LAA18980@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <199810051804.LAA18980@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <36193FA56B.0461KOZMIK@mail.glph1.on.wave.home.com> On Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > :: > ::Somebody's posted a Commodore C65 prototype on eBay. 4 days left and the > ::bidding is at $1025. > :: > > That's nothing. The last one sold went for $1400. (!) > Does anyone know anything about this prototype? -- ============================================================--------- Dominique Cormann Email:kozmik@wave.home.com dcormann@uoguelph.ca Homepage:kozmik.dyn.ml.org From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Oct 5 17:05:12 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay Message-ID: <19981005.170512.267.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> SUch crazy people. I think I will re-organize the Governor William J. Le Petomane Gambling Casino for the Insane (formerly the La Petomane Asylum for the Insane) and re-open this establishment as the Governor William J. LaPetomaine Computer Store for the Insane! A new era of lunacy is just on the horizon for the insane computer collector . . . . {Tongue removed from Cheek} On Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Cameron Kaiser writes: >:: >::Somebody's posted a Commodore C65 prototype on eBay. 4 days left >and the >::bidding is at $1025. >:: > >That's nothing. The last one sold went for $1400. (!) > >-- >-------------------------- personal page: >http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- >Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database >Programmer >Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 >849 2581 >ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 >849 2539 >-- Jesus at a disco: "Help! I've risen and I can't get down!" >----------------- > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Oct 5 17:44:35 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd make a list of the Top 10 Holy Grails of classic microcomputer computer collecting. This is the "Rembrandt in the Attic" sort of stuff. These are roughly in my opinionated order, but somewhat randomly ordered: 1. The Altair prototype that was to be the cover photo for Popular Electronics but was lost in shipment 2. Xerox Alto 3. Mark 8 4. Scelbi 8H 5. Kenbak-1 6. Micral 8008 7. Apple I 8. An unassembled Altair 8800 Kit 9. Busicom Japan Intel 4004-based Calculator 10. IBM 5100 Kai From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 17:43:57 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 5, 98 06:29:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 730 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/ee3478dd/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Oct 5 18:03:07 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: <36193FA56B.0461KOZMIK@mail.glph1.on.wave.home.com> from "Dominique Cormann" at Oct 5, 98 05:52:37 pm Message-ID: <199810052303.QAA27044@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 695 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/18c99a05/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 5 18:05:47 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Working PDP-10 anyone? In-Reply-To: <199810051855.LAA22561@saul5.u.washington.edu> (dpeschel@u.washington.edu) References: <199810051855.LAA22561@saul5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19981005230547.13800.qmail@brouhaha.com> "D. Peschel" asks about the PDP-10 that I mentioned was in Washington state: > Where in Washington were you thinking of? It's a KS10 that's in the hands of an enthusiast. From yowza at yowza.com Mon Oct 5 18:14:10 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > 2. Xerox Alto Not a micro. > 5. Kenbak-1 Not a micro. > 10. IBM 5100 Not a micro. You need three more :-) -- Doug From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 5 18:09:43 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19981005230943.13809.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Does anyone else remember the PIC that was a clone of the TM7000 > microcontroller (or maybe the other way round)? It was something like a > PIC7001. There was a PIC1670, but that had nothing to do with the TMS7000. The GI PICs were introduced way before the TMS7000. It's certainly possible that GI second sourced or cloned the TMS7000, but I never heard of it. GI second-sourced the TMS32010 DSP chip, and Microchip still offered it for a few years after they were spun off. As far as more powerful (non-DSP) microprocessors go, they seemed to try really hard to push the CP1600 16-bitter (Gemini?). Parts from this family were found in the Intellivision video game system. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 5 18:20:10 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <199810052119.AA03004@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199810052119.AA03004@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19981005232010.13884.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Dec sold the LSI-11 and later chip based systems as microcomputers. They sold the *systems* as "microcomputers". That has little bearing on whether the LSI-11 MOS VLSI chip set can be considered to be a microprocessor. > Source for this is the bindings of not less than 7 databooks and > technical descriptions. Yes, I've got the whole set as well. > Also the T-11 member of the family is a single > 40pin dip with one die inside. Still not relevant. The T-11 was definitely a microprocessor, but it came much later than the LSI-11. AFAIK noone ran Unix on a T-11, but even if they did, it certainly didn't predate running Unix on an LSI-11. > If that werent' the case the fairchild F8 would not qualify as a single > chip CPU due to the need for multiple chips and the same would apply to > the predecessor to the RCA CDP1802. Certainly the F8 qualifies as a single chip CPU. So did the 8080, 6800, 6502, Z-80, etc. Just because it took some additional chips to make a system doesn't mean that it didn't have a single-chip CPU. We haven't established a precise definition for microprocessor, but what you seem to be talking about is a microcontroller, which is a complete system on a chip (i.e., CPU, memory, and I/O). You'll get very few people to agree that the memory and I/O must be present for a chip to qualify as a microprocessor. This is evident from the word itself: 'micro', meaning small, and 'processor', meaning something that processes information. Nothing in either the 'micro' or 'processor' portion of the word seems to imply that any memory or I/O are included. AFAIK, the first true microcontroller (CPU, memory, and I/O on one monolithic IC) was the Intel 8048. Eric From yowza at yowza.com Mon Oct 5 18:41:57 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <19981005232010.13884.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 5 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > Certainly the F8 qualifies as a single chip CPU. I thought the F8 was two-chip (ALU and control logic on two different chips). Mostek made a microprocessor version of the F8 (3840?). > We haven't established a precise definition for microprocessor, but what > you seem to be talking about is a microcontroller, which is a complete > system on a chip (i.e., CPU, memory, and I/O). My definition is ALU and control logic on a single chip. -- Doug From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Oct 5 18:58:06 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Homebrewing a classic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199810052351.QAA25340@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Some thoughts on this homebrew stuff... Front Panels: ------------- I've been mulling over the idea of building a "generic" front panel. Clearly there is a lot of resonance with the blinking lights of the PDP-series, the Altairs and IMSAIs etc. However if I did this it would have to be both durable and cheap. Having rebuilt a couple of PDP-8 KC8's I think the rocker over the slide switch can be cheap but it isn't durable. I've been sketching ideas based on a rocker that is threaded on a rod. The back of the rocker contains a 'paddle' which when the rocker is down, breaks an IR/detector gap. This has a couple of benefits. One the rockers are on a rod so they don't have small pins to break off, and two the switch mechanism is optical and thus not subject to oxidation decay that mechanical systems suffer. Of course I would like the front panel to be usable for a variety of hardware designs and that leaves open the question of 'generic' switches. Clearly there are the following switch requirements: Run/Stop Single Step - momentary Deposit - momentary Examine - momentary Load Address - momentary switch register - what size? Could have 8 to 32 bits if we wanted Key switch - Off/On/Panel Lock Some panels adopted a dual action switch for 'examine'/'examine next' and 'deposit'/'deposit next'. Clearly that's harder to do with my simple optical switch. Compound Computers ------------------ I've about half decided to build something PDP-8 like out of PIC chips. They are relatively cheap, easy to program, and quite fast. I hadn't thought about using them as base units (microcode sequencer, ALU control, etc) until this discussion began, but it also raised the point of 'emulators' and I began to wonder what if you build a Z80 system that emulated a PDP-8 with one of these custom front panels. That turns out to be more of a software effort than a hardware effort. Transistor based CPUs ---------------------- You can get PC boards made fairly cheaply, if you wanted to do a transistor based CPU I would definitely consider having a few hundred 'flip chip' equivalents made. It wouldn't have to be 1:1 DEC replacements but they showed it could be done. Wiring up 12 flip flops by hand on a piece of perf board (4 transistors each!) would be extremely painful. TTL Logic based CPUs -------------------- First, find a 50Amp 5 volt supply. :-) The thing about TTL logic that always amazes me is how much power it draws. I built a digital PLL out of TTL chips once (about 40 chips) it was easily drawing 3-4 amps at speed. 74HC logic might be a good compromise here. The use of CRTs --------------- There is a really clever homebrew display that was influenced by early computers called the 'beer budget graphics display' and was featured in BYTE magazine in the late 70's. Basically this was two R2R D/A ladders driving the X/Y inputs to an oscilloscope. If you make a 12 bit machine you could build a 4K x 4K resolution display fairly easily. (You will be core limited in terms of points to plot but what the heck right?) This type of output was featured in several different early computers. Anyway, just some thoughts... --Chuck From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Oct 5 18:55:13 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: Whoops, Holy Grails of Classic PERSONAL Computer Collecting :) I only put in "Micro" to leave out the PDP-1's, etc. -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com] Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:14 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > 2. Xerox Alto Not a micro. > 5. Kenbak-1 Not a micro. > 10. IBM 5100 Not a micro. You need three more :-) -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 17:48:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <199810052119.AA03004@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 5, 98 05:19:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 338 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/9dfb275b/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Oct 5 19:08:16 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: <97e26ad8.36195f70@aol.com> I'd also add the apple lisa. In a message dated 10/5/98 5:52:53 PM US Eastern Standard Time, kaikal@MICROSOFT.com writes: << ust for the hell of it, I thought I'd make a list of the Top 10 Holy Grails of classic microcomputer computer collecting. This is the "Rembrandt in the Attic" sort of stuff. These are roughly in my opinionated order, but somewhat randomly ordered: 1. The Altair prototype that was to be the cover photo for Popular Electronics but was lost in shipment 2. Xerox Alto 3. Mark 8 4. Scelbi 8H 5. Kenbak-1 6. Micral 8008 7. Apple I 8. An unassembled Altair 8800 Kit 9. Busicom Japan Intel 4004-based Calculator 10. IBM 5100 >> From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 19:14:10 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Tron, con't In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981005100930.00cc1570@pc> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, John Foust wrote: > At Siggraph, the industry's big trade show, the Kingston memory chip > booth wasn't far from our booth, and they spent the week telling > people to buy their memory because it was used in the machines > that rendered scenes from Titanic. And Bruce Faust, one of VCF 2.0's speakers, built the render farm that rendered the scenes for Titanic using DEC Alpha's under NT (or so he SAYS! :) > Back to Tron, though - three-four years ago, I remember meeting > someone at a Siggraph who claimed to have worked on Tron, and who > still had a copy of the original computer 3D models. I think he was > a Caucasian wearing a robe and Sikh-like turban, but my memory This sounds exactly like Rick Rubin, the big-time hip-hop/rap producer. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 19:18:48 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: VCF Press Clippings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Any news on the airtimes for the ZDTV and CNET pieces? No word yet. I'll bug the producers in a week or so. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Oct 5 19:23:27 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Lisa HELP! Message-ID: Help! This is a weird one. I have a Sun Remarketing Macintosh XL (a.k.a. Lisa 2 modified). It has Sun's Parallel-to-SCSI card which runs a ribbon cable out the back of the machine and plugs into the external parallel port. OK, I've heard of such configurations, so far, so good. Problem is, neither the Kalok SCSI hard drive nor the 800K floppy drive spin up when I power on the machine. I pulled out the drive enclosure, and there is no power connected. The Sun Parallel-to-SCSI has a 6-pin right-angle power connector on it. There is a loose power connector in the drive area, but it has only 3 pins on a totally different spacing. What is going on here? thanks!! Kai From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 19:27:23 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: <199810051804.LAA18980@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > :: > ::Somebody's posted a Commodore C65 prototype on eBay. 4 days left and the > ::bidding is at $1025. > :: > > That's nothing. The last one sold went for $1400. (!) Well, how many of these "prototypes" exist? Has anyone authenticated these things? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 19:02:56 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Oct 5, 98 03:44:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 542 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981006/f659afbc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 19:06:03 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <19981005230943.13809.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 5, 98 11:09:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 868 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981006/248f152f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 19:06:56 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <19981005232010.13884.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 5, 98 11:20:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 181 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981006/7efb09a9/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Mon Oct 5 19:28:49 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Whoops, Holy Grails of Classic PERSONAL Computer Collecting :) > > I only put in "Micro" to leave out the PDP-1's, etc. What's wrong with putting the PDP-1 at the top of the list? Also, there are several people that would happily trade an Altair 8800 (or two) for a straight PDP-8. If you're going to include the Xerox Alto, I think I'd prefer even a lowly Xerox Star to an Altair. :-) -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 19:29:06 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: FW: pdp11/44 free to good home in TX In-Reply-To: <19981005184414.12494.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 5 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > I'm not sure this is such a great idea. IMNSHO, the biggest Y2K problems > will not be caused by actual computer problems, but by people's fear of > computer problems. I'm expecting a run on the banks, and it appears that > I'm not just being paranoid; the Fed is expecting it as well and has printed > an extra $5e9 in cash to try to cope with it. Whatever ends up compelling the companies to retire the old iron, it will definitely mean more computers to round up. > On the other hand, if you have some plan that involves benefitting from a > run on the banks, I'd be interested in hearing about it. :-) Sell paper and ink to the government? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 19:30:01 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <19981005183954.12470.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 5 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > Sam wrote: > > Anyway, the F14 CADC SLF chip can be classified as a single-chip > > microprocessor. I say "can" because you've get a different definition of > > microprocessor depending on whom you ask. > > OK, let us know the definition, so that we can decide whether the LSI-11 > chip set also qualifies as a microprocessor. Then we can settle the trivia > question regarding which microprocessor-based Unix system came first. It is a microprocessor, just not "single-chip", as you'll notice I specified once you re-read my message above. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 19:30:59 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Working PDP-10 anyone? In-Reply-To: <01BDF070.3C38A2F0@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: I queried: > Does anyone know off-hand where there might be a complete, working PDP-10 > system? On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Already looking for next years VCF door prize? No, that's going to be a Cray 1. The PDP-10 is for something else. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 5 19:27:45 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: (message from Doug Yowza on Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:41:57 -0500 (CDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981006002745.14159.qmail@brouhaha.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > I thought the F8 was two-chip (ALU and control logic on two different > chips). Mostek made a microprocessor version of the F8 (3840?). No, the entire F8 CPU was on a single chip. I'm not sure about a Fairchild part number; Mostek second-sourced it with the part number MK3850. The confusion may stem from an unusual feature of the F8 bus. Each F8 support chip maintained a local copy of the program counter and data pointer, in order to reduce the necessary bus bandwidth. However, the CPU was complete in that it contained the master copy of both pointers. Note that the HP Saturn processor used in the HP-71B handheld computer in 1984, and in all HP handheld calculators since 1986, uses the same principle. Mostek also made single-chip-microcontroller variants in the MK3870 series. > My definition is ALU and control logic on a single chip. Seems basically reasonable, although "control logic" is a bit vague. Your definition could apply to hardwired processors that do not execute stored programs. Eric From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 19:36:39 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Cheap "variac"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > The labeling indicates "MAX. 800 WATTS-120 V.A.C." My math tells me that > > this unit can handle a maximum of 6 amps. Would this be safe to use as a > > variac on, say, a sparsely loaded IMSAI? > > 800W is a _very_ large soldering iron... 80W would be more like it. Well, it says 800W on the box, but I'm not going to insist it is correct as I agree, 800W would melt a cubic foot of solder. > My guess is that this is a Triac-based controller, like a lamp dimmer. Is > there any electronics in the case apart form the pot? In particular is > there a 3-pin TO220 packaged device on a heatsink? Yep, there it is. Sometimes I think you have a camera spying on all of us list members. > I would not use a triac controller on a transformer load like a computer. > The sudden edges in the waveform when the triac conducts would not do it > any good at all. Ok, same as what Chuck suggested. > A true Variac does look a bit like a large pot, but a 6A one is going to > be about 4" in diameter... Someone on the list turned me on to a cheap one being offered on the net. If I don't get this one then I at least know what to look for now at the ham fests. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 5 19:30:35 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:27:23 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981006003035.14203.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sam Ismail replied to the messages about Commodore C65 prototypes fetching high prices on ebay: > Well, how many of these "prototypes" exist? Has anyone authenticated > these things? I'm tempted to auction off some of my C66 prototypes :-) From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 19:38:19 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > I wouldn't attempt to do something like this unless I could afford to pay > for the whole thing myself. The trick is to convince companies to sponsor it. I'll have a much easier time doing it next year than I did this year. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 5 19:36:28 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:30:01 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981006003628.14245.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > It is a microprocessor, just not "single-chip", as you'll notice I > specified once you re-read my message above. OK, so by that definition the LSI-11 is microprocessor based, and is the correct answer to the trivia question about the frist microprocessor-based Unix system. I'm not sure how useful a definition it is. Why, for instance, isn't my PDP-8/I considered to be microprocessor-based? It has a multi-chip processor. So did the IBM 360/30, for that matter. Is the difference based on the number of chips? If so, where is the dividing line? While I would be the last person to want to downplay the significance of the F-14 computer, I personally think that the word 'microprocessor' is only useful if it refers to a single monolithic IC, in which case Ted Hoff and Intel get credit for the first one. Eric From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 19:43:57 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd make a list of the Top 10 Holy Grails > of classic microcomputer computer collecting. This is the "Rembrandt in the > Attic" sort of stuff. These are roughly in my opinionated order, but > somewhat randomly ordered: > > 10. IBM 5100 I'd take this off the list. Its really not THAT hard to obtain (I'm sure there were far more of these than Apple 1's made). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Oct 5 19:39:15 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sethm@loomcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: <199810060039.RAA03773@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 670 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/6c5dd8f5/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 19:46:13 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I believe the first microcomputer to run Unix was the DEC PDP11/03 and > > > > 11/23 at At&T's Bell Labs (see the papers on mini-unix). > > > > > > Microprocessor-based computer? Read the question again. > > By some definitions, the LSI11/03 and 11/23 are microprocessors (as is > the 11/73 which came later). The definition I use (and we've discussed > this before...) is 'A microprocessor is a processor on a single chip, or > a chipset which is only used to make that processor'. And that includes > the 11/03 and 11/23 Yep. I wasn't thinking and didn't remember a previous discussion I'd had with Allison about the fact that the 11/03 and 11/23 are "microprocessors". > If you won't allow these as microprocessors then you certainly have to > exclude the F14 processor as well... Not necessarily. Again, the SLF chip COULD function without the other chips in the set. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From yowza at yowza.com Mon Oct 5 19:47:45 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > Tandy Deluxe CoCo (I think one has survived). If so, somebody should put it out of its misery! I think there's a huge dinstinction between "rare" and "desirable", and I personally find CoCo's undesirable no matter how rare (you also won't find me chasing things like the C65). Most of the machines on Kai's list would bring me no joy. I wouldn't want an Apple 1 because I'd be afraid to power it on. I wouldn't want an Altair kit because it would be just a paperweight unless I built it (which would be fun, but when I was done it would no longer be a kit). I wouldn't especially want a Mark-8 since there was no "official" Mark-8 (sort of like the COSMAC Elf, it was just a magazine article). Just for fun, here are my top 3 Holy Grails: 1) PDP-1 running SPACEWAR 2) Xerox Alto 3) Thinking Machine's CM-1 -- Doug From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Oct 5 19:56:41 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Cheap "variac"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199810060049.RAA15652@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Sam, if you need an example you can go to Halted in Sunnyvale and look on their row next to the test bench. They have a 20Amp 120v Variac on the shelf. It's about 8" around with a funky steering wheel like knob on the end. (they want $350 for it so its probably still there ;-) --Chuck From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 19:57:30 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <19981005232010.13884.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 5 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > > If that werent' the case the fairchild F8 would not qualify as a single > > chip CPU due to the need for multiple chips and the same would apply to > > the predecessor to the RCA CDP1802. > > Certainly the F8 qualifies as a single chip CPU. So did the 8080, 6800, > 6502, Z-80, etc. Just because it took some additional chips to make a > system doesn't mean that it didn't have a single-chip CPU. Ahhhhhh! So we finally have some consensus. I wish people would realize this about Holt's F14 microprocessor. The 5 other chips in the set (PMU, PDU, SL, RAS, ROM) made up a whole SYSTEM, but the SLF could perform usefully with just the RAS (RAM) and/or ROM. > We haven't established a precise definition for microprocessor, but what And you never will. > you seem to be talking about is a microcontroller, which is a complete > system on a chip (i.e., CPU, memory, and I/O). This is what many people get confused about when trying to define a "microprocessor" or more precisely, "single-chip microprocessor". A "computer-on-a-chip" is quite a different beast. > You'll get very few people to agree that the memory and I/O must be present > for a chip to qualify as a microprocessor. This is evident from the word > itself: 'micro', meaning small, and 'processor', meaning something that > processes information. Nothing in either the 'micro' or 'processor' portion > of the word seems to imply that any memory or I/O are included. I think to truly understand where the controversy lies in what was the "first" "microprocessor", one has to get themselves in the mindset of the computer engineers back in the late 60s, early 70s. A "microprocessor", or a CPU on a chip, was the next logical progression. There was no magic in creating it really, it was simply a matter of time before the technology advance to a state where it could be accomplished. Hoff, Faggin and Mazor, by virtue of their employer having mass-marketed a product that crammed an entire Central Processing Unit on a single chip, take license to define what a "microprocessor" is or should be. The definition is somewhat arbitrary. They just happened to garner the prestige that enable them to this day to influence that definition, which isn't necessarily proper, but more self-serving. > AFAIK, the first true microcontroller (CPU, memory, and I/O on one monolithic > IC) was the Intel 8048. Are you sure? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 19:59:00 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <97e26ad8.36195f70@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > I'd also add the apple lisa. There you go. I'd replace the 5100 with the Lisa. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 20:01:24 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Lisa HELP! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Problem is, neither the Kalok SCSI hard drive nor the 800K floppy drive spin > up when I power on the machine. I pulled out the drive enclosure, and there > is no power connected. The Sun Parallel-to-SCSI has a 6-pin right-angle > power connector on it. There is a loose power connector in the drive area, > but it has only 3 pins on a totally different spacing. What is going on > here? I think that's the serial connector. The board had a serial port on it so you could do simple diagnostics from a terminal. No kidding! One of the Lisas we got in that haul of 7 a few weeks back had one of these cards. The guy who got it (Roger Sinasohn) should have the docs on that card, so maybe he can help you some more. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 5 20:05:23 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting References: Message-ID: <36196CD3.6FD4B657@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > I'd also add the apple lisa. > > There you go. I'd replace the 5100 with the Lisa. That's only because you have one :). And as far as a Lisa is concerned, it would be a good idea to specify which one. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 20:05:24 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: <19981006003035.14203.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 6 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > Sam Ismail replied to the messages about Commodore > C65 prototypes fetching high prices on ebay: > > > Well, how many of these "prototypes" exist? Has anyone authenticated > > these things? > > I'm tempted to auction off some of my C66 prototypes :-) Yeah, I've got quite a few C63 prototypes (came BEFORE the C64!) and some Apple IV's. Not to mention an IBM PC-YT and a VIC 20-1/2. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 20:08:18 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <19981006003628.14245.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 6 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > While I would be the last person to want to downplay the significance of > the F-14 computer, I personally think that the word 'microprocessor' is > only useful if it refers to a single monolithic IC, in which case Ted Hoff > and Intel get credit for the first one. Single, monolithic IC with....? What? A transistor on it? An ALU with "control logic"? You run into the same problem. Who's definition do we agree upon? The answer seemingly is the same as the answer for "who has the most money?" Have you ever heard of the AL1 from Four Phase Systems? Circa 1968, and also the first "microprocessor" :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 20:12:52 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <36196CD3.6FD4B657@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > I'd also add the apple lisa. > > > > There you go. I'd replace the 5100 with the Lisa. > > That's only because you have one :). No, its not because of that. An unmodified Lisa (aka Lisa 1) is much more difficult to obtain than a 5100. The reason being Apple handed out free upgrade kits to replace the Twiggy drives in the original Lisa with the single 400K Sony 3.5". Most were upgraded. > And as far as a Lisa is concerned, it would be a good idea to specify > which one. Of course THE Lisa. The later models are the Lisa 2 and the Lisa 2/10 (aka Mac XL) which are easy to find (the Lisa 2/10 seems to be easier to locate than a straight Lisa 2...and there IS a difference; several in fact). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 5 21:15:57 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <199810051804.LAA18980@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> :: >> ::Somebody's posted a Commodore C65 prototype on eBay. 4 days left and the >> ::bidding is at $1025. >> :: >> >> That's nothing. The last one sold went for $1400. (!) > >Well, how many of these "prototypes" exist? Has anyone authenticated >these things? There was more like an entire production run of them. IIRC there are/were several hundred of them. Or maybe he's selling a prototype of the ones that were actaully made. The Commodore A3000+ prototypes sound more interesting, there are only 3 of them I believe. Still the C65 would have been interesting. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 5 20:12:18 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:59:00 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981006011218.14533.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sam wrote: > There you go. I'd replace the 5100 with the Lisa. OK, I have a Lisa 2 that I'd be perfectly willing to trade for a 5100, provided that the 5100 was in good condition and had APL. I'm not interested in a BASIC-only 5100. Eric From yowza at yowza.com Mon Oct 5 20:24:33 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <36196CD3.6FD4B657@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote: > > There you go. I'd replace the 5100 with the Lisa. > > That's only because you have one :). And as far as a Lisa is concerned, it > would be a good idea to specify which one. I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance represented on this list. I know we have multiple IBM 5100's here, many Altair 8800's, multiple Lisa 1's, multiple EC-1's, even multiple Apple 1's! Any PERQ owners besides Tony? (Bill von H has some, but I don't think he's on the list.) I'll make a guess at which machines I have which nobody else has: * GO Lombard (again, Bill von H has one) * Linus Write-Top (thanks, anonymous list member!) * SEGA AI Game Machine * RCA COSMAC MicroMonitor (Yes, all of my rare machines are obscure, but I'll fix that with a well-indexed web page someday!) -- Doug From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Oct 5 20:20:34 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sethm@loomcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Prototypes (was: Re: Somebody has a C65 on eBay) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 5, 98 06:15:57 pm Message-ID: <199810060120.SAA04018@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1122 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981005/4d4e1a30/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 5 20:22:54 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:08:18 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981006012254.14598.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > While I would be the last person to want to downplay the significance of > the F-14 computer, I personally think that the word 'microprocessor' is > only useful if it refers to a single monolithic IC, in which case Ted Hoff > and Intel get credit for the first one. Sam replied: > Single, monolithic IC with....? What? A transistor on it? An ALU with > "control logic"? You run into the same problem. Who's definition do we > agree upon? The answer seemingly is the same as the answer for "who has > the most money?" A single monolithic IC that contains a complete CPU capable of executing stored programs from external memory (or optionally, internal memory). > Have you ever heard of the AL1 from Four Phase Systems? Circa 1968, and > also the first "microprocessor" :) No, please tell us about it. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 5 20:30:56 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:05:24 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981006013056.14633.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > I'm tempted to auction off some of my C66 prototypes :-) Sam replied: > Yeah, I've got quite a few C63 prototypes (came BEFORE the C64!) and some > Apple IV's. Not to mention an IBM PC-YT and a VIC 20-1/2. Yeah, those PDP-0s and IBM System 359s should fetch amazing prices too. Reminds me of something that happened many years ago. Someone from a local computer store (or maybe even from Apple; I forget) was giving a slide presentation about various Apple products to a user group. He described one of the slides as "a woman typing on an Apple ///". Having just seen Blade Runner a few days before, I yelled something to the effect that actually it was Apple IV typing on an Apple ///". This seems to have entertained the crowd more than the entire rest of the presentation. :-) There's some evidence to suggest that the Lisa is the Apple VI, which raises the question of what happened to IV and V. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 5 20:39:24 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:07 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810060139.AA07758@world.std.com> < We haven't established a precise definition for microprocessor, but wha < you seem to be talking about is a microcontroller, which is a complete < system on a chip (i.e., CPU, memory, and I/O). Ah, your catching on. CPU: central processing unit... says nothing about memory or IO. The CPU is an 8080. Microprocessor: Actually is a systems level concept and is generally refers to the whole box. The Altair8800 Microcomputer. Microcontroller: see above! The IMSAI IMP-48 microcontroller uses the Intel 8035 as its core. The F8 (NOT the 3870) had bits and piices of the CPU scattered between a minimum of two chips. The 1800/1801 did the same as it was too much for one piece of silicon at the time of design. < AFAIK, the first true microcontroller (CPU, memory, and I/O on one monol < IC) was the Intel 8048. BZZT! TI TMS1000 and NEC uCOM4 both predate it. So the F14 CADC is a microcomputer. The LSI-11 is a microcomputer. The Z80 is a CPU as is the 80586. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 5 20:39:31 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810060139.AA07889@world.std.com> < Yes, but DEC had a strange definition of 'microprocessor'. They sometime < used the term to mean 'microcoded processor' - as in the microprocessor < board for the DMC11, etc which certainly wasn't a single-chip processor < (it was a hex-height card of TTL). Microprocessor... the RX01 disk controller (drive end) is a board of ttl and proms. It is a micro, meaning small, processor, it performs a set procedure of actions "process" upon data or system (disks and the data for them). The RX01 contains a microprogrammed microcontroller as its microprocessor. I'd think that was clear enough. ;) Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 5 20:39:37 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810060139.AA07951@world.std.com> < I'm not sure how useful a definition it is. Why, for instance, isn't m < PDP-8/I considered to be microprocessor-based? It has a multi-chip < processor. So did the IBM 360/30, for that matter. The 8I was a TTL cpu and was a lot of DEC cards interconnected to make a minicomputer. There is no one board, or 15, in an 8I that could be called the CPU or even the core processor. The 8E did reduce that to three cards timing, major registers, major registers control. The dividing line is level of integration. The F14 CADC basically put those three 8E card into one ot two chips. < While I would be the last person to want to downplay the significance o < the F-14 computer, I personally think that the word 'microprocessor' is < only useful if it refers to a single monolithic IC, in which case Ted Ho < and Intel get credit for the first one. Microprocessor is a functional name ie: what it do, not what it are. So in most senses microcomputer and microprocessor are one and the same but not always interchangeable. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 5 20:39:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Homebrewing a classic Message-ID: <199810060139.AA08041@world.std.com> < I've been sketching ideas based on a rocker that is threaded on a rod. T Smooth rod with a return spring and seperators between teh switches. < back of the rocker contains a 'paddle' which when the rocker is down, < breaks an IR/detector gap. This has a couple of benefits. One the rocker No question it's more reliable... what about dust. How about hall effect switches? < switch register - what size? Could have 8 to 32 bits if we wanted Number of bits is based on CPU native word size. < I've about half decided to build something PDP-8 like out of PIC chips. < They are relatively cheap, easy to program, and quite fast. I hadn't < thought about using them as base units (microcode sequencer, ALU control < etc) until this discussion began, but it also raised the point of Doable but not many are needed as the 8 series had a single accumularot and the amount of random logic that is not control related is small. < 'emulators' and I began to wonder what if you build a Z80 system that < emulated a PDP-8 with one of these custom front panels. That turns out t < be more of a software effort than a hardware effort. It was done on an 8080 in the mid 70s using a terminal as a text graphics display. < You can get PC boards made fairly cheaply, if you wanted to do a transis < based CPU I would definitely consider having a few hundred 'flip chip' < equivalents made. It wouldn't have to be 1:1 DEC replacements but they < showed it could be done. Wiring up 12 flip flops by hand on a piece of p < board (4 transistors each!) would be extremely painful. Yes it would also the shear number even at a penny(US) each would scare most people as something like an straight-8 used a few thousand. Resistors aren't cheap nor caps so that scales up real fast. Transistors if used would be a good thing for doing a serial machine as they have lower parts counts and few hardware "registers". Not modern silicone transistors do not have close to similar characteristics to the old grown junction or MADT germainium devices so circuit chages would be required. < First, find a 50Amp 5 volt supply. :-) The thing about TTL logic that < always amazes me is how much power it draws. I built a digital PLL out o < TTL chips once (about 40 chips) it was easily drawing 3-4 amps at speed < 74HC logic might be a good compromise here. I've done some heafty TTL designs (one was 200 chips SSI and some MSI) and it didn't need near 20 amps never mind 50. I don't thing the 8E PS can do more than 35A. Besides a simple design is possible without meltdown for heat. < computers called the 'beer budget graphics display' and was featured in < BYTE magazine in the late 70's. Basically this was two R2R D/A ladders < driving the X/Y inputs to an oscilloscope. If you make a 12 bit machine < could build a 4K x 4K resolution display fairly easily. (You will be cor I built it using a 8bit R2R ladder and that is the limit of that design for a lot of reasons. It settles slow (more than 10uS settling time) and the high order drivers to the R2R ladder have to supply some power. A later published design used 8bit moto1408, also slow. Or scale back to 1024x1024. This is known as vector graphics and the real limitation is how many vectors can you draw before you have to go back and redraw (flicker/refresh) which is a fuction of DAC speed, CPU speed and crt driver speed. It was the display common to the PDP-1, and seen on 8s and even some 11s for early graphics. Allison From lfb107 at psu.edu Mon Oct 5 21:39:53 1998 From: lfb107 at psu.edu (Les Berry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay Message-ID: <199810060237.WAA119340@f04n01.cac.psu.edu> At 06:15 PM 10/5/98 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >>> :: >>> ::Somebody's posted a Commodore C65 prototype on eBay. 4 days left and the >>> ::bidding is at $1025. >>> :: >>> >>> That's nothing. The last one sold went for $1400. (!) >> >>Well, how many of these "prototypes" exist? Has anyone authenticated >>these things? > >There was more like an entire production run of them. IIRC there are/were >several hundred of them. Or maybe he's selling a prototype of the ones >that were actaully made. The Commodore A3000+ prototypes sound more >interesting, there are only 3 of them I believe. Still the C65 would have >been interesting. > Yeah, the last estimate I saw put the number at just under 1,000 made in all. You used to be able to buy them from a company that sold C= parts for something like $169. (Or you could fish them out of the dumpsters out on Wilson drive if you got there on the right day.) Word is that they were 65816 based (or somesuch) and looked *sorta* like an Amiga 500 with a 3 1/2 floppy built in. I don't think they were compatible with the 64. Anyways, the CBM FAQ has more info, haven't read it lately. Les From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 5 21:34:48 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <199810060139.AA07758@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199810060139.AA07758@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19981006023448.14877.qmail@brouhaha.com> allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > The F8 (NOT the 3870) had bits and piices of the CPU scattered between a > minimum of two chips. No, it didn't. The entire F8 CPU was on a single chip. If you added a second chip that contained only ROM and I/O, you had a functional system. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Oct 5 21:30:07 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981005193007.035d5160@agora.rdrop.com> At 04:55 PM 10/5/98 -0700, you wrote: >Whoops, Holy Grails of Classic PERSONAL Computer Collecting :) > >I only put in "Micro" to leave out the PDP-1's, etc. Ooooooo.... do I forsee a religious war on what constitutes a "personal" computer? I'd love to have a PDP-1 in the collection... and I think my PDP-8s, 11s, and VAX 7xx series are slightly insulted... (ok, maybe the VAXen are just amused) B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From william at ans.net Mon Oct 5 22:11:14 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance > represented on this list. > > I know we have multiple IBM 5100's here, many Altair 8800's, multiple Lisa > 1's, multiple EC-1's, even multiple Apple 1's! I have an Interdata 14 - I know of no other Interdatas at all, except for a Model 4 at RCS/RI. Lots made - few saved. I also have a few other machines that are really not rare, but probably are unique to the list - Data General Nova 4 and Eclipse S/230, SGI IRIS 2500T, CDC Cyber 910 (AKA SGI IRIS 3130). In the definitely odd department is a very interesting VAX-11/730 with a CDC tag. And how about a "Holy Grail" list of Big Iron? Mine would be (in no order): 1. IBM 700 series 2. IBM 650 3. IBM 7000 series 4. IBM S/360 or S/370 series 5. Burroughs B5500 6. Cray-1 7. Thinking Machines CM-1 8. Univac 1 7. Bendix G-15 8. CDC 6000 series 9. DEC PDP-1 10. DEC KA10 or KI10 Sure, some of these were made in the thousands (S/360 Model 40, for example), but due to the nature of big iron - few remain. If the list were made up of machines made in single digits, it would be full of supers. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Oct 5 22:14:25 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981005193007.035d5160@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: > Ooooooo.... do I forsee a religious war on what constitutes a "personal" > computer? Holy war? On this list? Never. William Donzelli william@ans.net From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Oct 5 22:25:49 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19981006132241.00e003f0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 11:11 PM 05-10-98 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >And how about a "Holy Grail" list of Big Iron? Mine would be (in no >order): Well I'd add a Ferranti Atlas for all the obvious reasons. If we're having a fantasy day, I'd like to own (in no real order) A Pascal Microengine An Epson PX-8 (aka Geneva) IMSAI 8080 PDP-8 (I've already got an -8A but I want the original). A Next Cube A fairly short list and (unfortunately) fairly unobtainable in Australia apart from the Next (I have one or two that I have first dibs on when they come free at the end of this year). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 5 22:38:36 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting References: Message-ID: <361990BC.2BE7D2D@rain.org> Doug Yowza wrote: > I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance > represented on this list. > If anyone else on the list has a Mac8 EMIC, I'd be interested to hear about it. It is a Japanese 8080 S-100 computer with a full front panal ala Altair or IMSAI. I received it as a gift when I was over in Japan from the owner of the company. How many people have a Chameleon? A friend of mine gave it to me probably 5 or so years ago when he was cleaning out his garage. The only other instance of a Jonas I have heard about here is the one recently obtained by John Lawson. I'm sure that others on the list have computers that are not that well known, including people that own some of the computers at VCF 2.0. From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 5 22:43:56 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: IBM Salvage? References: Message-ID: <361991FC.DB47E191@rain.org> A friend of mine just called and said he saw some older IBM stuff at the junk yard and was letting me know. He indicated there was an IBM box with a vertical 8" floppy drive with the box about 12"w x 30"h x 30" or so deep. There was also a tape drive which had already been scrounged. Does this sound like something I should take a look at and get? He used the number 5360 but really wasn't sure what the computer and peripherals were. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 22:59:56 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <19981006012254.14598.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 6 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > > Single, monolithic IC with....? What? A transistor on it? An ALU with > > "control logic"? You run into the same problem. Who's definition do we > > agree upon? The answer seemingly is the same as the answer for "who has > > the most money?" > > A single monolithic IC that contains a complete CPU capable of executing > stored programs from external memory (or optionally, internal memory). The F14 CADC SLF chip fits this definition, BTW. > > Have you ever heard of the AL1 from Four Phase Systems? Circa 1968, and > > also the first "microprocessor" :) > > No, please tell us about it. There's a lot more out there than Intel would have you believe :) Give me some time to pull my notes together on this (life is still a mess after VCF). I'm taking a trip to Dallas tomorrow thru Friday, so give me until the weekend to give you some starter information. I'm hoping there's a web site out there I can point you to as well. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 23:01:33 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: <19981006013056.14633.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 6 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > There's some evidence to suggest that the Lisa is the Apple VI, which raises > the question of what happened to IV and V. Rare, unreleased prototypes waiting to be auctioned on eBay. What makes you think the Lisa was the Apple VI? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 6 00:05:00 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: RSX-11M and CSR's Message-ID: Is there a way to get RSX-11M V4.2 to provide a list of CSR's in use on the system? IIRC RT-11 will provide them, but I've not figured out how to get RSX to. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From rexstout at uswest.net Tue Oct 6 00:05:55 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: IBM Salvage? In-Reply-To: <361991FC.DB47E191@rain.org> References: Message-ID: >A friend of mine just called and said he saw some older IBM stuff at the >junk yard and was letting me know. He indicated there was an IBM box with a >vertical 8" floppy drive with the box about 12"w x 30"h x 30" or so deep. >There was also a tape drive which had already been scrounged. Does this >sound like something I should take a look at and get? He used the number >5360 but really wasn't sure what the computer and peripherals were. Cool! That's an IBM System/36. If you can plug it in and it does something, it's probably worth grabbing. On the other hand, if it's rusted apart and when you plug it in it blows up in your face, run away... Just make sure you have enough room to store it. You'll also need some terminals(I think 5250 type), or at least a PC with some 5250 terminal software and an interface(you can buy them new at around $300, but an old cheap/free terminal would probably be better...) -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From william at ans.net Mon Oct 5 23:06:35 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: IBM Salvage? In-Reply-To: <361991FC.DB47E191@rain.org> Message-ID: > A friend of mine just called and said he saw some older IBM stuff at the > junk yard and was letting me know. He indicated there was an IBM box with a > vertical 8" floppy drive with the box about 12"w x 30"h x 30" or so deep. > There was also a tape drive which had already been scrounged. Does this > sound like something I should take a look at and get? He used the number > 5360 but really wasn't sure what the computer and peripherals were. That sounds like the early mid-sized S/36. The later ones had 5 1/4" drives. S/36s are falling fast to the Y2K thing, being pushed out of the way by AS/400s. Not a rare peice, but soon will probably be. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Oct 5 23:10:03 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981006132241.00e003f0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: > Well I'd add a Ferranti Atlas for all the obvious reasons. I probably should have added some foriegn iron, but I must admit, I am unfamiliar with it. Certainly some of the big Japanese and British stuff would count. William Donzelli william@ans.net From fauradon at pclink.com Mon Oct 5 23:15:32 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: <004101bdf0df$f6a93720$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> >> I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance >> represented on this list. How about an ExelVision EXL100 I don't think they ever made it to this side of the atlantic. Of course you UK people have a chance to have one but I believe it never made it out of France (except for mine:) As far as the holly grail list: yep one of each would be great. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 5 23:15:54 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <199810060139.AA07758@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > So the F14 CADC is a microcomputer. The LSI-11 is a microcomputer. > The Z80 is a CPU as is the 80586. I think this is the most intelligent description to be applied since I got involved in this whole debate earlier this year. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Oct 5 19:21:34 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Internet software for an XT computer In-Reply-To: <361827D1.4A6B56BA@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: <199810060428.AAA17146@smtp.interlog.com> On 4 Oct 98 at 21:58, Phil Clayton wrote: > I'm sure I have read before that some users on the forum use internet > software for accessing the internet that will run on old XT running DOS > (Text only)..? > Would someone tell me where I could get a copy of this software.. > Thanks.. > Phil... > If your ISP has a shell server, they will usually have Lynx which is a text only browser. You can simply dial in using a terminal program like Telix. Actally using a non-gui browser can be considerably faster, since you don't have to download all those "pretty" pictures. Some sites don't support text-only but they're sites most "geeks"like us aren't interested in anyway. The MSDos I-net program of choice however seems to be "Net-Tamer" which is readily available. I'm sending you a FIDO post from a year or so ago reviewing the many various programs under separate cover. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Oct 5 19:21:35 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: References: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 5, 98 06:29:18 pm Message-ID: <199810060428.AAA17154@smtp.interlog.com> On 5 Oct 98 at 23:43, Tony Duell wrote: > > Ooops.. .Finger trouble. I didn't mean to send an unedited message back > to the list... > > > > > I believe the first microcomputer to run Unix was the DEC PDP11/03 and > > > > 11/23 at At&T's Bell Labs (see the papers on mini-unix). > > > > > > Microprocessor-based computer? Read the question again. > > By some definitions, the LSI11/03 and 11/23 are microprocessors (as is > the 11/73 which came later). The definition I use (and we've discussed > this before...) is 'A microprocessor is a processor on a single chip, or > a chipset which is only used to make that processor'. And that includes > the 11/03 and 11/23 > > If you won't allow these as microprocessors then you certainly have to > exclude the F14 processor as well... > > > -tony > How about a LSI IC on a single silicon wafer chip for data manipulation which includes I/O funtions. Not to be confused with an MPU ( micro-processing unit} which may or may not be on a single chip. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Oct 5 19:21:31 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: References: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 4, 98 09:42:31 pm Message-ID: <199810060428.AAA17163@smtp.interlog.com> On 5 Oct 98 at 18:31, Tony Duell wrote: > > Actually, I think I can relate more to getting a good feeling when > > something I'm creating works for the first time. Video games never really > > did it for me. > > There is a very nice feeling when something that you've created (no > matter if it's been done before) works for the first time. And it's a > great pity that not many people these days get the chance to feel it. > > -tony > I tend to feel the upsurge in collecting is related just to this. Getting an old computer up and running is likely more of a rush to me than the actual usage of it. I'm likely to turn over a machine I don't especially want in my collection happily to someone that wants one, for free once I've got it going even tho I've spent umpteen hours and some $ on it. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Oct 5 23:30:41 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19981006132241.00e003f0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <4.1.19981006141808.00cf1890@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 12:10 AM 06-10-98 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >> Well I'd add a Ferranti Atlas for all the obvious reasons. > >I probably should have added some foriegn iron, but I must admit, I am >unfamiliar with it. Certainly some of the big Japanese and British stuff >would count. The Atlas is famous for two important things - virtual memory and timesharing. The Atlas was the first commercial machine to have hardware support for paging and hence virtual memory. A neat timesharing system resulted. I also seem to recall a nice Algol compiler for it too. I'll see if I can remember to check my copy of "Algol-60 Compilation and Assessment" which will have the gory details :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From yowza at yowza.com Mon Oct 5 23:33:10 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > So the F14 CADC is a microcomputer. The LSI-11 is a microcomputer. > > The Z80 is a CPU as is the 80586. > > I think this is the most intelligent description to be applied since I got > involved in this whole debate earlier this year. You mean avoiding the issue altogether? I think it's always good to name things. Microprocessor is a useful name. What isn't always useful is to try to define "first". Nobody really cares if the 4004 was first. The 4004 is important due to its influence. The Altair wasn't first, but it had great influence. The Osborne wasn't the first portable, but ... you get the idea. To me, "microprocessor" means something that was heavily influenced by the 4004 or its relatives, and that's a useful distinction. Is there a better word for that? -- Doug From altair8800 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 6 00:46:57 1998 From: altair8800 at hotmail.com (Bob Wood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: <19981006054658.22736.qmail@hotmail.com> I received a tip last year that a long time computer business located in Mobile, Alabama was a virtual storehouse of vintage machines. I payed them a visit and could not get past the receptionist. I was told that they occasionally donated the things to be used in educational institutions but that they were absolutely not interested in selling anything. About six months later I learned that the business had closed. Subsequently, I was told by a veteran employee of this firm that when they shut their doors they hauled two Xerox Altos (among many others) to the landfill. I told this person that it was unlikely that they would ever have been in possesion of Xerox Altos but he was adamant that they were indeed Xerox Altos. In hindsight, I now wish I had fibbed to that receptionist and told her that I was connected with the University of Alabama. Bob Wood ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Oct 6 00:32:41 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: Doug Yowza's message of Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:24:33 -0500 (CDT) References: Message-ID: <199810060532.WAA28294@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Doug Yowza wrote: > I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance > represented on this list. Hmm, any other HP9000 series 500 owners out there? (I have a 520, but would like to hear from anyone who has any FOCUS-architecture 9000s.) -Frank McConnell From yowza at yowza.com Tue Oct 6 01:07:03 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <19981006054658.22736.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Bob Wood wrote: > I told this person that it was unlikely that they would ever have been > in possesion of Xerox Altos but he was adamant that they were indeed > Xerox Altos. Anything's possible, I guess. But there was a fairly dull (by comparison) computer brand "Altos", so don't get too excited if somebody says "Altos for sale." The Xerox machines were never released commercially, but I think a few got into Universities. -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Tue Oct 6 01:43:37 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Alto (was Re: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anybody here speak Japanese? I think this fellow has an Alto: http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=394262682 (Let me visit it if you buy it from him!) -- Doug From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 6 01:39:29 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:01:33 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981006063929.15888.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sam Ismail writes: > What makes you think the Lisa was the Apple VI? If you study Lisas, Lisa peripherals, accessories, and software, I think you'll figure it out. But if no one does, I'll eventually explain. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 6 02:21:38 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > > So the F14 CADC is a microcomputer. The LSI-11 is a microcomputer. > > > The Z80 is a CPU as is the 80586. > > > > I think this is the most intelligent description to be applied since I got > > involved in this whole debate earlier this year. > > You mean avoiding the issue altogether? I think it's always good to name > things. Microprocessor is a useful name. What isn't always useful is to > try to define "first". Who's avoiding the issue? I think "microcomputer" most aptly defines what the F14 chip set is, taken as a whole. The 4004, the equivalent of the F14 CADC's SLF, also needed a bunch of support chips to make it useful (4001, 4002, 4003, etc. not to mention a bunch of TTL, which the CADC did NOT need, requiring only the chips in its basic set) and therefore, putting it all together, was a "microcomputer". I still think the SLF is a "microprocessor", and quite likely the first even though you think that's not important (there's gotta be a Big Bang somewhere). > To me, "microprocessor" means something that was heavily influenced by the > 4004 or its relatives, and that's a useful distinction. Is there a better > word for that? That's ludicrous, since as I explained in a previous message, the single-chip CPU was simply the next step. There was nothing really special about the 4004 that "influenced" later designs. It was one of many. In fact, there were all sorts of designs coming out around the time of the 4004, 4040, 8008, etc. in the 1971-1974 timeframe. Most of them were way better than Intel's efforts. Intel just happened to have the most staying power, which is why we have the Pentium II today and not the 10th generation 6502, or F8, or AMI 7200, etc. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 6 02:25:31 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: <19981006063929.15888.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 6 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > Sam Ismail writes: > > What makes you think the Lisa was the Apple VI? > > If you study Lisas, Lisa peripherals, accessories, and software, I think > you'll figure it out. But if no one does, I'll eventually explain. Nobody has the enormous free time you seem to have that allows you to study Lisa's, so better to start explaining. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu Tue Oct 6 02:39:19 1998 From: ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance > represented on this list. How about the Expander? It's an S-100 box designed by Lee Felsenstein that's sort of a cross between a SOL-20 and a TRS-80 model 1, only Swedish. The only information I've been able to find on this machine is in Kip Crosby's CHAC interview with Lee Felsenstein in Analytical Engine 3.2. According to the information in the interview, 200 Expanders were made, but the order was never paid for, so only "a few" made it into the public. Is there anyone else out there with an Expander or any Expander-related information? I plan to open it up and start tracing out the memory map when I have a few hours of free time. I have tested the power supply, the EPROMs are backed up, and the machine appears to be functional. If anyone is interested, I have placed a (bad) picture of the Expander and some additional information on the Web, at http://xtal.pharm.nwu.edu/~ware/collection/machines/expander.html -- Scott Ware ware@xtal.pharm.nwu.edu From yowza at yowza.com Tue Oct 6 02:51:02 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: >I still think the SLF is > a "microprocessor", and quite likely the first even though you think > that's not important (there's gotta be a Big Bang somewhere). The Big Bang was named Babbage. Intel supplied the ammunition for a revolution: cheap computers. The high level of integration was what enabled them to make it cheap, and they commercialized it. The level of integration is the salient feature of the chip, but not the main feature of the important event. Babbage was not the first to come up with the idea of a computer, but you can trace the development of modern computers back to him. You can't do anything like that with Holt's chip -- it had no influence. Maybe there were other Big Bangs before The Big Bang, but if they didn't create a Universe, nobody cares. -- Doug From kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk Tue Oct 6 06:16:09 1998 From: kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk (KNIGHT G.A) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Amiga stories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi I run an Amiga webpage and would be very interested in any stories that people have relating to the Amiga, the famous people involved, interviews and images. Regards, Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://welcome.to/aig From kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk Tue Oct 6 06:50:38 1998 From: kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk (KNIGHT G.A) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: <199810060237.WAA119340@f04n01.cac.psu.edu> Message-ID: Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>> ::Somebody's posted a Commodore C65 prototype on eBay. 4 days left and the > >>> ::bidding is at $1025. I always thought it would be cool for a C65 emulator to be released. It would certainly provide a fascinating insight into one of Commodores unproduced systems. > >There was more like an entire production run of them. IIRC there are/were > >several hundred of them. Or maybe he's selling a prototype of the ones > >that were actaully made. The Commodore A3000+ prototypes sound more > >interesting, there are only 3 of them I believe. Still the C65 would have > >been interesting. Who owned these A3000+ prototypes. I know that Dave Haynie was one but cannot think of the other two. Have they been auctioned in the past? Regards, Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://welcome.to/aig From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 06:52:51 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810061152.AA15838@world.std.com> < allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: < > The F8 (NOT the 3870) had bits and piices of the CPU scattered between < > minimum of two chips. < < No, it didn't. The entire F8 CPU was on a single chip. If you added a < chip that contained only ROM and I/O, you had a functional system. Not quite. the F8 cpu (3850) was an incomplete system without the 385x (3851,6,7 PSU). It was very difficult to simulate the PSU in ttl as well. The two ran in lock step just like the parts of the F14 CADC or the LSI-11 with it's MICROMS. The 3870 was the single chip version of the F8. In some respect the F8 was like many early parts in that the CORE CPU was there but glue was needed to make it all work. (8080/8224/8228 for example). I know this from doing comparative design-ins while at NEC during the late 70s. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 06:52:58 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810061152.AA15898@world.std.com> The Big Bang was named Babbage. Intel supplied the ammunition for a < revolution: cheap computers. The high level of integration was what No Intel never made a cheap computer. They made CPUs, Memory and support chips. The MCS. MDS, intellect even the SDKs were anything but cheap. < enabled them to make it cheap, and they commercialized it. The level o < integration is the salient feature of the chip, but not the main featur < of the important event. It's everything as the 8008 hit the level of integration needed to produce a viable general purpose commercial cpu. For example why is it that prople are hunting for MARK-8 and Kenbec's when the most likely find (greatest quantity) for 8008 machines is a MCS-8 from intel?!?! This is not unlike the PDP-8. the PDP-8 really wasn't the first small computer. It was the first to be manufactured in large quantities at low cost and that it was a member of a family that spanned many years (PDP-5, 8, 8I, 8E, 8A DECmate). Allison From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 6 08:19:24 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Expander Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Scott Ware wrote: > How about the Expander? It's an S-100 box designed by Lee Felsenstein > that's sort of a cross between a SOL-20 and a TRS-80 model 1, only > Swedish. The only information I've been able to find on this machine is > in Kip Crosby's CHAC interview with Lee Felsenstein in Analytical Engine > 3.2. According to the information in the interview, 200 Expanders were > made, but the order was never paid for, so only "a few" made it into the > public. Lee touched on this at VCF 1.0. He described the project a little bit: how it came about and what happened to it. The VCF 1.0 talks will be available for purchase on tape before the end of the year (I PROMISE!) > http://xtal.pharm.nwu.edu/~ware/collection/machines/expander.html Looks very cool. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 6 08:20:06 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > Babbage was not the first to come up with the idea of a computer, but you > can trace the development of modern computers back to him. You can't do > anything like that with Holt's chip -- it had no influence. Maybe there > were other Big Bangs before The Big Bang, but if they didn't create a > Universe, nobody cares. I think this attitude in general carelessly disregards an amazing body of work. In fact, I think people do care. I'm not so quick to sweep historical facts underneath the carpet simply as a matter of convenience. I'd rather know the complete and true story, and not just the easiest one to remember. Furthermore, you are are discounting the AMI microprocessors of the early 70s, which Holt went on to design after the F14 CADC, and the influence those chips may have had on later designs. In fact, you are choosing to go along with the popular history written years ago by a biased reporter that is perpetuated by lazy historians who simply regurgitate the information they read in the last book rather than doing real research and finding out there was more to the story, and that there is history before the popular history. The picture is bigger than the canvas it was painted on. I want to know what was beyond the frame. I'm surprised you have this attitude when on the one hand you'd like to see the HP9830 recognized as the first personal computer, rather than the Altair 8800. By your own reasoning, the HP9830 wasn't the big bang, so who cares? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 6 08:56:03 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: <199810060237.WAA119340@f04n01.cac.psu.edu> from "Les Berry" at Oct 5, 98 10:39:53 pm Message-ID: <199810061356.GAA17470@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 820 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981006/a6e3a4a4/attachment.ksh From bill at chipware.com Tue Oct 6 09:27:23 1998 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <01BDF113.E890AC70@yamato.chipware.com> So to complete this train of thought, Intel was the inflationary period and Microsoft would be the infinite expansion and eventual heat death of the universe? (Sorry, couldn't resist) -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza [SMTP:yowza@yowza.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 3:51 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Corrections to trivia On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: >I still think the SLF is > a "microprocessor", and quite likely the first even though you think > that's not important (there's gotta be a Big Bang somewhere). The Big Bang was named Babbage. Intel supplied the ammunition for a revolution: cheap computers. The high level of integration was what enabled them to make it cheap, and they commercialized it. The level of integration is the salient feature of the chip, but not the main feature of the important event. Babbage was not the first to come up with the idea of a computer, but you can trace the development of modern computers back to him. You can't do anything like that with Holt's chip -- it had no influence. Maybe there were other Big Bangs before The Big Bang, but if they didn't create a Universe, nobody cares. -- Doug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2629 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981006/6e05beaf/attachment.bin From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 6 09:40:39 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981006094039.00f3aad0@pc> At 11:11 PM 10/5/98 -0400, you wrote: >> I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance >> represented on this list. Those PERQs sound funkadelic. Anyone else here with Teraks? - John Terak Museum From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 6 09:45:28 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <19981006003628.14245.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981006094528.00efa4a0@pc> Sheesh, this list is beginning to remind me of the Dinosaur list, where the elders and the young'ins rant forever about birds versus dinos. What's wrong with a long list of "X begat Y" and knowing who might've talked to who, and knowing how similar ideas evolved independently? Today's computers are more similar to each other than "computers" were thirty years ago. So what? Is it a dino with feathers, or a bird with dino hips? The history is interesting, especially when new items are uncovered. - John From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 6 11:44:49 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810061526.RAA05980@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> Babbage was not the first to come up with the idea of a computer, but you >> can trace the development of modern computers back to him. You can't do >> anything like that with Holt's chip -- it had no influence. Maybe there >> were other Big Bangs before The Big Bang, but if they didn't create a >> Universe, nobody cares. > I think this attitude in general carelessly disregards an amazing body of > work. I always belives it's a kind of anglo american attitude toward non US (and GB) archievments around the world, but I'm glad to see that it's even comon within. SCNR Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu Tue Oct 6 10:32:48 1998 From: ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Expander In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: (regarding the Expander) > Lee touched on this at VCF 1.0. He described the project a little bit: > how it came about and what happened to it. The VCF 1.0 talks will be > available for purchase on tape before the end of the year (I PROMISE!) I've always wondered how one of these machines ended up on a sidewalk in Chicago (admittedly, the location isn't so strange, since it was only a few miles from the zip code listed for "Micro-Expander" on the back panel). Finding this machine outside the former site of a computer store called "Sol's Computer Works" seemed unlikely to be just a coincidence. I talked old hardware with the proprietor of the shop for a while and remarked on the similarity of the Expander to the Sol, but he didn't volunteer any additional information and I didn't press him for it. Maybe the VCF tapes will fill in some of the missing information in the history of the Expander. -- Scott Ware ware@xtal.pharm.nwu.edu From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 10:30:35 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810061530.AA24174@world.std.com> < > Babbage was not the first to come up with the idea of a computer, but < > can trace the development of modern computers back to him. You can't < > anything like that with Holt's chip -- it had no influence. Maybe the < > were other Big Bangs before The Big Bang, but if they didn't create a < > Universe, nobody cares. Prior to Holts chip, the F14 CADC there wer lesser chips. All of them were on a line started in the late 50s with a simple IC of no real usefulness. The little bangs were the devlopment of processes that alloed more transistors to a die, developing MOSFET technology that were more compact and better suited to planar circuits on the die. Things like well isolation all contributed and happend on lesser circuits than a CPU. We are talking about commonly used chips like gates, adders, shift registers, rams and ROMS. Lets face it, the 8008 would have been a burp instead of a bang if the ROM and RAM chips weren't there too! < I think this attitude in general carelessly disregards an amazing body o < work. In fact, I think people do care. I'm not so quick to sweep My whole point. < historical facts underneath the carpet simply as a matter of convenience < I'd rather know the complete and true story, and not just the easiest on < to remember. < < Furthermore, you are are discounting the AMI microprocessors of the < early 70s, which Holt went on to design after the F14 CADC, and the < influence those chips may have had on later designs. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 10:30:41 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: a collectors grail Message-ID: <199810061530.AA24288@world.std.com> As I get deeper into collecting there are systems and docs I'd love to find. Ten of them in no special order. 1. Cincinatti Millichron 2000, 2100 or 2200 based mini. 2. Docs (or copies) for IMSAI IMP48 3. Intel MCS-8 4. Control Logic modules L series (for 8008 based system use). 5. and 8E/F/M or programmers pannel equipped 8A 6. Signetics 2650 based SBC 7. Intel prompt-48 9. DEC 8008 based SBC. 10. RCA 1801/18101 based system eveluation board. (1801 is not a typo). Allison From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 6 11:51:09 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: <199810061532.RAA13827@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd make a list of the Top 10 Holy Grails > of classic microcomputer computer collecting. This is the "Rembrandt in the > Attic" sort of stuff. These are roughly in my opinionated order, but > somewhat randomly ordered: > 1. The Altair prototype that was to be the cover photo for Popular > Electronics but was lost in shipment > 2. Xerox Alto > 3. Mark 8 > 4. Scelbi 8H > 5. Kenbak-1 > 6. Micral 8008 > 7. Apple I > 8. An unassembled Altair 8800 Kit > 9. Busicom Japan Intel 4004-based Calculator > 10. IBM 5100 Hmm Breaking down to just 10 is hard, but when it comes to the 'most desirable' ones, I would personaly add at #1 the wooden PET prototype. And eventualy the ATARI-ST prototype boards. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 6 11:56:30 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: a collectors grail Message-ID: <199810061537.RAA15644@marina.fth.sbs.de> > 6. Signetics 2650 based SBC That's one I would also like to get my hands on, since my first computer (homebrew) was using one (supid me, I just throw it away 20 years ago in favour for a KIM). It's rare to finde s.o. today, remembering tis odd but neat pice of silicon. Allison, do you still have docs and/or computers/boards ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 6 11:00:17 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Less common ones (Was: Top 10 Holy Grails In-Reply-To: <199810060532.WAA28294@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: Doug Yowza wrote: > I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance > represented on this list. OK, some here might have Epson HC-20s. (Epson repainted the grey case beige and removed the Katakana from the keyboard and ROMs to make the HX-20 a few years later) But how many here know about the RC-20? A wrist watch with a touch screen, imitation Z-80, ROM, RAM, and a serial port. YES, it was >10 years ago. But my primary interest is disk drives and formats. 40 track 3.5", 3", 3.25", Amlyn 5.25" jukebox, ... I might have to get a Lisa just to get one of those strange "twiggy" drives. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From Marty at itgonline.com Tue Oct 6 11:20:36 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:08 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <1998Oct06.121933.1767.144951@smtp.itgonline.com> I second your opinion. Well stated Sam. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Corrections to trivia Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/6/98 9:23 AM On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > Babbage was not the first to come up with the idea of a computer, but you > can trace the development of modern computers back to him. You can't do > anything like that with Holt's chip -- it had no influence. Maybe there > were other Big Bangs before The Big Bang, but if they didn't create a > Universe, nobody cares. I think this attitude in general carelessly disregards an amazing body of work. In fact, I think people do care. I'm not so quick to sweep historical facts underneath the carpet simply as a matter of convenience. I'd rather know the complete and true story, and not just the easiest one to remember. Furthermore, you are are discounting the AMI microprocessors of the early 70s, which Holt went on to design after the F14 CADC, and the influence those chips may have had on later designs. In fact, you are choosing to go along with the popular history written years ago by a biased reporter that is perpetuated by lazy historians who simply regurgitate the information they read in the last book rather than doing real research and finding out there was more to the story, and that there is history before the popular history. The picture is bigger than the canvas it was painted on. I want to know what was beyond the frame. I'm surprised you have this attitude when on the one hand you'd like to see the HP9830 recognized as the first personal computer, rather than the Altair 8800. By your own reasoning, the HP9830 wasn't the big bang, so who cares? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct06.092339.1767.67943; Tue, 06 Oct 1998 09:23:40 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id GAA20934; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 06:21:02 -0700 Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id GAA34038 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 06:20:07 -0700 Received: from mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (mailhub2.ncal.verio.com [204.247.247.54]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id GAA14781 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 06:20:07 -0700 Received: from shell1.ncal.verio.com (dastar@shell1.ncal.verio.com [204.247.248.254]) by mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA00943 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 06:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 06:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Sam Ismail To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Corrections to trivia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Classic Computer Discussion X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 6 12:42:37 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Less common ones (Was: Top 10 Holy Grails Message-ID: <199810061624.SAA05799@marina.fth.sbs.de> Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Doug Yowza wrote: >> I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance >> represented on this list. > OK, some here might have Epson HC-20s. (Epson repainted the grey case > beige and removed the Katakana from the keyboard and ROMs to make the > HX-20 a few years later) Well beside homebrews, I could throw in the Microset 8080 (as seen on the VCF 2.0), a Eurocom I or maybe the Pascal Microengine, to name a US build computer. But reflecting the huge amount of 'forgotten' computers, maufacturers and models (not to mention all these zillions of 'different' Japaneese MSX systems), there might be some in everyones collection thats unique within the list. Gruss H. P.S.: are there still some Superbrains out there ? I need docu and system disks, because the disks are unreadable since the 'friendly' visit 4 weeks ago. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Marty at itgonline.com Tue Oct 6 12:08:23 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <1998Oct06.130656.1767.144964@smtp.itgonline.com> A BBC series entitled 'Connections,' hosted (I believe) by James Burke was fascinating as it culled a wide range of seemingly disparate and unrelated inventions and discoveries which led to some profound changes in technological progress. It is this 'trivia' that I find interesting especially when an idea laid dormant for years is realized by the advancement of technology. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Corrections to trivia Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/6/98 11:31 AM >> Babbage was not the first to come up with the idea of a computer, but you >> can trace the development of modern computers back to him. You can't do >> anything like that with Holt's chip -- it had no influence. Maybe there >> were other Big Bangs before The Big Bang, but if they didn't create a >> Universe, nobody cares. > I think this attitude in general carelessly disregards an amazing body of > work. I always belives it's a kind of anglo american attitude toward non US (and GB) archievments around the world, but I'm glad to see that it's even comon within. SCNR Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct06.113129.1767.67975; Tue, 06 Oct 1998 11:31:29 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id IAA26860; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:29:16 -0700 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id IAA28166 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:29:12 -0700 Received: from ns.sbs.de (ns.sbs.de [194.112.84.17]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id IAA08793 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:29:11 -0700 Received: from mail.fth.sbs.de (mail.fth.sbs.de [192.129.41.35]) by ns.sbs.de (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA20021 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:34:01 +0200 (MDT) Received: from marina.fth.sbs.de (marina.fth.sbs.de [192.129.41.2]) by mail.fth.sbs.de (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA02855 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:19:11 +0200 (MET DST ) Received: from M23769PP (m23769pp.mch.sbs.de [139.25.241.35]) by marina.fth.sbs.de (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA05980 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:26:16 +0200 (MET DST ) Message-Id: <199810061526.RAA05980@marina.fth.sbs.de> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:45:49 +1 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: "Hans Franke" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Corrections to trivia X-Envelope-Sender-Is: franke@sbs.de (at relayer mail.fth.sbs.de) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From kevan at heydon.org Tue Oct 6 12:07:57 1998 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > Now, the cost of booking a room, etc doesn't vary too much with the > number of people. And I doubt if I'd get anything like 100 people coming > to UK-VCF. It would be interesting just to see how many collectors in the UK (and mainland Europe) would be interested in going to a UK VCF. If you are, then reply to me directly at kevan@heydon.org and answer these questions: Would you be interested? Where do you live? (just a rough idea of where would be best.) Do you have anything interesting that you could show / talk about? I'll summarise the results when the replies dry up. -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Oct 6 12:16:49 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Definitions In-Reply-To: <1998Oct06.121933.1767.144951@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <199810061710.KAA10103@mxu4.u.washington.edu> So would it be possible to come up with a group sanctioned list of definitions for: computer (generic) digital computer analog computer minicomputer microcomputer processor microprocessor mainframe Then when we all agreed on what the definition was we could argue 'firsts' with some sort of logical frame-work. As it is, the discussions read a lot like: A: The first X was the first foobar. B: No it wasn't, the Y was the first foobar. A: Y isn't a foobar, it doesn't even start with foo. B: Sure it was it was the ulimate foobar, it defines fooness. ...etc... C: If I had a Y I'd sell it on eBay for $50,000. D: I've got 18 Y's in my collection, I found them in a dumpster. E: That was the Y model 2, the original Y was much more elegant yours are the worthless later model. ... etc... No offense intended, my observation is that many discussions are running around in circles because the participants haven't agreed on their basic tenents yet. --Chuck From aaron at wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 6 13:18:15 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Rookie PDP help needed again... Message-ID: Thanks for the other responses about the cards, I think I have all the Plessey clone cards identified with the DEC models. However, I am a little confused on my CPU board identification. The board is an M8186, which I have searched on and found to be a KDF11-AA. Or KDF11-AB. Or KDF11-AC. The problem is that I can't find any revision code on the board. To add to the confusion, the original configuration sheet in the case lists the CPU board as a KDF11-HF, of which I haven't been able to find any info at all. Does anyone have any info on this CPU, or can you tell me how to identify which board it actually is? Also, I have looked everywhere for a CPU/OS matrix and haven't found it. Could someone provide me with a URL or just a quick hand-rolled list of what versions of which OS run on which processor? The multifunction board is Plessey #MFV11A; same as DEC MXV11A? I tried to make a console cable using the pinouts on the sunsite PDP-11 page with no success, setting the terminal at 4800baud. Is there something I'm missing here, or can someone suggest how to wire the cable? I just arranged a loner scope (my Tek is basically dead), so I'll start going pin-by-pin until I figure it out, but a "here's how to wire the cable" would sure help a lot. Finally, is there anyone who remembers these clones? Does anyone have _any_ documentation on them at all? Anything really different from a standard DEC PDP-11? The front panel calls it a "Plessey Periperal Systems - Micro II." It has 6 switches on the panel: write protect switches for the two internal 8" floppies, the cpu halt/enable switch, a boot switch, an LTY on/off switch, and the power switch. Any info at all would be greatly appreciated. I feel like I've just stepped into the pages of a wild adventure book... Aaron From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 6 14:45:47 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Definitions Message-ID: <199810061827.UAA01368@marina.fth.sbs.de> > So would it be possible to come up with a group sanctioned list of > definitions for: > computer (generic) > digital computer > analog computer > minicomputer > microcomputer > processor > microprocessor > mainframe > Then when we all agreed on what the definition was we could argue 'firsts' > with some sort of logical frame-work. As it is, the discussions read a lot > like: I think the problem is that it's impossible to find a singe and _undisputed_ definition for any of the terms above. Even computer isn't clear at all (just remember Raul Rojas' speak about the Z1), not to mention this when is a microprocessor a microprocessor discusion going thruout the list. > No offense intended, my observation is that many discussions are running > around in circles because the participants haven't agreed on their basic > tenents yet. Same for me, but if we follow the ongoing thread, it will be visible, thats it's less about whats the first of wich ever (unclear) kind, and more about vague concepts and the impact of a certain design. All this firsts and this-but-not-that things operate at borderlines where are no real borders. Maybe there is a 'Uncertainty Principle' of certain 'seem to be exact' terms. Like ordinary physiks, they are usable for every day life, but when (we are) try to define the very finest structur, we have to discover that they are no more usable. Gruss H. BTW: should I call it Frankes Uncertainty Principle of Computer Terms ? (SCNR *g*) (I meet Werner Heisenberg once in 1972 at a speech at our school - quite an notable man.) P.S.: I like Sam's point about regarding unpretended tasks AND is like Doug's idea about (technical/comercial) impact. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but none can either be used as this blade everybody wants to have, since there is no strict this-or-that. I think both are to be considered. A concept without without follow up is not relevant, and if we only look for the (comercial) impact, so anything beside the x86 wouldn't be woth to be remembered ??? The true worth of this list is NOT to get this-or-that thing, it's about aquiering and enhance knowledge on all regarding fields, ideas, concepts, etc. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From yowza at yowza.com Tue Oct 6 13:30:42 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > I think this attitude in general carelessly disregards an amazing body of > work. In fact, I think people do care. I'm not so quick to sweep > historical facts underneath the carpet simply as a matter of convenience. > I'd rather know the complete and true story, and not just the easiest one > to remember. Historical footnotes are always intresting, but it seems to me that to pronounce "the F15 CADC was first, not the Intel 4004" is a strawman. We all agree that society was changed by the cheap interactive "personal" computer. We all know that *all* of the earliest cheap machines were based on Intel CPUs. This wasn't an accident, and nothing would change this fact if, say, TI engineers had actually produced a microprocessor before Intel. The important "firsts" in documenting the personal computer revolution are commercialization, availability, and price. I'm not denying that Holt produced a CPU, and it may be important in the history of military computers. It is irrelevant in the history of the personal computer unless there was a personal computer designed that included it or a direct descendant. > I'm surprised you have this attitude when on the one hand you'd like to > see the HP9830 recognized as the first personal computer, rather than the > Altair 8800. By your own reasoning, the HP9830 wasn't the big bang, so > who cares? The HP9830 is a historical footnote. It's more relevant than a military computer because there is documented evidence of the HP influence on early Apple machines, and the significance of the Apple machines are clear. There is also evidence that suggests that HP thought about and discounted the idea of selling the 9830 to a wider audience. To me, this makes it a pretty interesting footnote. If it had been created in a vacuum and Woz had worked at IBM instead of HP, it would be a lesser footnote, something like the MCM machine you mentioned. I think it's great that Holt got his story out. Footnotes always add depth, but no chapters need to be rewritten. -- Doug From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 6 13:27:18 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:21:38 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981006182718.18547.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sam wrote: > Who's avoiding the issue? I think "microcomputer" most aptly defines what > the F14 chip set is, taken as a whole. The 4004, the equivalent of the > F14 CADC's SLF, also needed a bunch of support chips to make it useful > (4001, 4002, 4003, etc. not to mention a bunch of TTL, which the CADC did > NOT need, requiring only the chips in its basic set) What bunch of TTL? If you could get by with registers (of which there were 16), you only needed a 4004 and the ROM chip to make a useful system. If you needed more ROM, RAM, or I/O, you just added the appropriate 400x chips. From jsalzman at hersheys.com Tue Oct 6 13:43:32 1998 From: jsalzman at hersheys.com (Salzman, Jeff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Definitions Message-ID: >So would it be possible to come up with a group sanctioned list of >definitions for: > computer (generic) Someone who calculates numbers > digital computer Someone who uses an electronic calculator to calculate numbers > analog computer Someone who uses an abacus to calculate numbers > minicomputer The assistant to the Computer > microcomputer The assistant to the Computer's assistant > processor Someone who collects and delivers the finished calculations > microprocessor ...his assistant > mainframe The big connecting series of tables where all these people work from Sorry guys, but after the day I had at work, I needed to interject a shot of humor Jeff Salzman Tongue-in-cheek From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 6 13:37:45 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <199810061152.AA15838@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199810061152.AA15838@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19981006183745.18591.qmail@brouhaha.com> allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > Not quite. the F8 cpu (3850) was an incomplete system without the > 385x (3851,6,7 PSU). It was very difficult to simulate the PSU in ttl > as well. Having used both the F8 and the LSI-11, I beg to differ. The F8 CPU was a complete CPU on a chip. The PSU chip was most definitely not necessary. The PC and data pointers were replicated on the PSU, but they did exist on the CPU, and the CPU was responsible for making sure that the PSU always had a correct copy of them. This is just an issue of efficient bus utilization, and there have been other processors that have done this. You might just as easily argue that any of the early Intel microprocessors were not complete because you couldn't simply hang 1702 EPROMs or 2102 RAMs directly on the bus. However, I don't recall anyone in this discussion previously claiming that a chip has to have a simple bus interface in order to qualify as a microprocessor. > The two ran in lock step just like the parts of the F14 CADC > or the LSI-11 with it's MICROMS. The main LSI-11 chip did not have the control store necessary to execute the documented instruction set; that was in the MICROMs. The F8 CPU included all the necessary instruction decode and sequencing on chip. You could argue that the main LSI-11 chip was a single chip microprocessor from the viewpoint of a microcode programmer. However, to the best of my knowledge it was never used in systems without MICROMs to implement an user-level instruction set (i.e., the LSI-11, Alpha Micro, and WD Pascal Microengine). > The 3870 was the single chip version > of the F8. That's true but it is an understatement. The 3870 was a single chip ONLY version. It was not externally expandable. > In some respect the F8 was like many early parts in that the > CORE CPU was there but glue was needed to make it all work. > (8080/8224/8228 for example). Yes. Are you arguing that the 8080 is not a microprocessor? From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 6 13:41:04 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: a collectors grail In-Reply-To: <199810061530.AA24288@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199810061530.AA24288@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19981006184104.18601.qmail@brouhaha.com> allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > 10. RCA 1801/18101 based system eveluation board. (1801 is not a typo). Don't you mean 1801R and 1801S? My early 18xx book doesn't list any 18101. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 6 13:51:43 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Definitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Salzman, Jeff wrote: > > analog computer > Someone who uses an abacus to calculate numbers Sorry, but an abacus is most definitely digital. A SLIDE RULE is analog. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From jsalzman at hersheys.com Tue Oct 6 13:55:28 1998 From: jsalzman at hersheys.com (Salzman, Jeff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Definitions Message-ID: > >Sorry, but an abacus is most definitely digital. >A SLIDE RULE is analog. I stand corrected. > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 14:14:13 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Definitions Message-ID: <199810061914.AA22953@world.std.com> < > So would it be possible to come up with a group sanctioned list of < > definitions for: < > computer (generic) < > digital computer < > analog computer < > minicomputer < > microcomputer < > processor < > microprocessor < > mainframe Pick up a dictionary and use it! These words have a definition that works if used concisely. Then we also need to get group santioned english. Part of the problem is these are exacting terms that are often abused linguisticly. After all it's easity to say X is first computer. Only to be corrected because you didn't say analog, digital, mechanical, electrical, relay, vacuum tube, transistor, integrated circuit, RTL, TTL, ECL, MOS, CMOS, ad infinitum. If this seems nitpicky consider this statement; The norden bomb sight, an analog mechanical computer has it roots in what? If that appears to be an exercise for the inane we are preserving, using, trading, collecting and otherwise dealing with history and in archeological terms what, where, when, who, how are other questions are part of the story. Accuracy and minuniscule details are the essence of an industry that in my lifetime went from the early commercial vacuum tube machines to the 64bit CPU chip running some thousands of times faster. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 14:14:19 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810061914.AA23050@world.std.com> < Historical footnotes are always intresting, but it seems to me that to < pronounce "the F15 CADC was first, not the Intel 4004" is a strawman. W It is if you leave it at first and don't get any more specific than that. the F14 CADC was the first microcomputer system that made fly by wire practical. The 4004 was the first commercially viable single chip CPU. Clear statments that do not conflict but do make a statment that points to their significance. < I'm not denying that Holt produced a CPU, and it may be important in th < history of military computers. It is irrelevant in the history of the < personal computer unless there was a personal computer designed that < included it or a direct descendant. Or the technology that made the silicon possible for later commercial designs. It doesn't have to be the same design. < I think it's great that Holt got his story out. Footnotes always add < depth, but no chapters need to be rewritten. The assuption is they are accurate chapters. ;) the depth is needed to see how the later chapters are significant. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 6 14:07:45 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Definitions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19981006190745.18750.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Salzman, Jeff" wrote: > > computer (generic) > Someone who calculates numbers > > > digital computer > Someone who uses an electronic calculator to calculate numbers > > > analog computer > Someone who uses an abacus to calculate numbers No, no, no! > digital computer Someone who uses an electronic calculator or an abacus to calculate numbers > analog computer Someone who uses a slide rule to calculate numbers From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 6 14:21:26 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <981006152126.20a00134@trailing-edge.com> > Intel supplied the ammunition for a >revolution: cheap computers. The high level of integration was what >enabled them to make it cheap, and they commercialized it. The level of >integration is the salient feature of the chip, but not the main feature >of the important event. It *certainly* wasn't obvious in the mid-70's, when Intel had picked up its pieces and put together a microprocessor chip (the 8080A) which cost a significant fraction of what a new car cost at the time, that VLSI CPU's were going to be replacing boards full of TTL logic. It was Intel's competitors - notably Motorola and especially MOS Technology - who were responsible for driving microprocessor CPU costs to the hundred-dollar-level and below. That's when times really began a-changin'. Tim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 6 14:37:42 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Definitions In-Reply-To: <199810061914.AA22953@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > < > So would it be possible to come up with a group sanctioned list of > < > definitions for: > Pick up a dictionary and use it! These words have a definition that works > if used concisely. (-: Sorry, but then we would have to go with Jeff Salzman's definitions. :-) My 10 year old OED (Oxford English Dictionary) says: Computer Also -or. [f. Compute v. + -er.] One who computes; a calculator, reckoner. spec. a person employed to make calculations in an observatory, in surveying, etc. 1646 Sir T. Browne Pseud. Ep. vi vi 289 The Clenders of these computers. 1704 .... I've heard that some newer editions of the OED have added some of the more modern usages. > an industry that in my lifetime went from the early commercial vacuum > tube machines to the 64bit CPU chip running some thousands of times > faster. And with software that has grown to compensate for the speed of the hardware and keep the usefulness of the system where it was. Nevertheless, it WOULD help if we agreed on basic definitions of our fundamental terminology. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 6 14:45:38 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <981006152126.20a00134@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 6, 98 03:21:26 pm Message-ID: <199810061945.MAA10684@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 857 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981006/9ff97afe/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 15:10:29 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810062010.AA13490@world.std.com> > In some respect the F8 was like many early parts in that the < > CORE CPU was there but glue was needed to make it all work. < > (8080/8224/8228 for example). < < Yes. Are you arguing that the 8080 is not a microprocessor? Where did you get that idea from. It's a the idea that CPUs don't have to be single chip to constitute a microprocessor/microcomputer. The rest is stirring the pot to hear it clang. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 15:10:36 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: a collectors grail Message-ID: <199810062010.AA13623@world.std.com> < Don't you mean 1801R and 1801S? My early 18xx book doesn't list any 181 Both. Mine do, I have an unusual collection of RCA data books with alot of their loose data sheets as well. I used to call on the RCA microcomputer systems group down Somerville NJ. Allison From tomowad at earthlink.net Tue Oct 6 16:28:58 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay Message-ID: <199810062029.NAA05162@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >There's some evidence to suggest that the Lisa is the Apple VI, which raises >the question of what happened to IV and V. I think it would be more accurate to say that Apple considered naming the Lisa the Apple IV. "Lisa" was originally just a code name, after all. Tom Owad -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 6 15:26:32 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: a collectors grail In-Reply-To: <199810062010.AA13623@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199810062010.AA13623@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19981006202632.19092.qmail@brouhaha.com> >> Don't you mean 1801R and 1801S? My early 18xx book doesn't list any 18101 > Both. Mine do, I have an unusual collection of RCA data books with alot Well, don't leave us in suspense. What's an 18101? Did it come before or after the 1801R/1801S pair? From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 6 15:47:59 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: VCF Press Clippings References: Message-ID: <361A81FF.503C7341@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > Any news on the airtimes for the ZDTV and CNET pieces? > > No word yet. I'll bug the producers in a week or so. Don't rush ZDTV -- apparently it'll be added to my cable service the last week of October. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Oct 6 15:50:09 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Aquarius Data Recorders Message-ID: <199810061945.OAA18513@trailingedge.com> I just received an email from a local group which has 250 new in box Aquarius cassette recorders. They are taking bids but I suspect you can't just buy a few but would have to take the whole lot. I have one but could use at least one more and maybe two and it would be nice to have the box and any doc or cables. Is there any interest in this out there? If so, how much would people be willing to pay? Don't forget shipping costs. Let me know. BTW, "local" in this case is Houston, TX. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 6 15:39:27 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <199810062010.AA13490@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199810062010.AA13490@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19981006203927.19150.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > In some respect the F8 was like many early parts in that the > CORE CPU was there but glue was needed to make it all work. > (8080/8224/8228 for example). I wrote: > Yes. Are you arguing that the 8080 is not a microprocessor? Allison wrote: > Where did you get that idea from. It's a the idea that CPUs don't have > to be single chip to constitute a microprocessor/microcomputer. Because earlier in your same message that I quote, you wrote: > The F8 (NOT the 3870) had bits and piices of the CPU scattered between > minimum of two chips. Which was false, anyhow. The entire CPU was on the 3850 chip. But you seemed to be making the claim that the 3850 wasn't a single-chip microprocessor because it didn't contain the complete CPU. I was stating that the 3850 CPU was as complete as the 8080, so if you are going to claim that the 3850 wasn't a single-chip microprocessor, in order to be consistent you'll have to make the same claim about the 8080. From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 6 15:51:39 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Tron, con't References: Message-ID: <361A82DB.275F8C0E@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, John Foust wrote: > > > At Siggraph, the industry's big trade show, the Kingston memory chip > > booth wasn't far from our booth, and they spent the week telling > > people to buy their memory because it was used in the machines > > that rendered scenes from Titanic. > > And Bruce Faust, one of VCF 2.0's speakers, built the render farm that > rendered the scenes for Titanic using DEC Alpha's under NT (or so he > SAYS! :) Actually, those (IIRC about 200) Dec Alphas were running Linux, not NT. There's a fair bit of info around. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 6 15:59:40 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting References: Message-ID: <361A84BC.E93392B@cnct.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > > On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Tandy Deluxe CoCo (I think one has survived). > > If so, somebody should put it out of its misery! I think there's a huge > dinstinction between "rare" and "desirable", and I personally find CoCo's > undesirable no matter how rare (you also won't find me chasing things like > the C65). Me' I'd love a Tandy Deluxe Color Computer (can anybody give me a list of the features it was supposed to have?) and my wife would love to have a TI 99/8. (A friend of mine salvaged one of the three prototypes of what would have been the next AT&T Unix PC on its way to the dumpster at Convergent -- 68020, math coproc slot, 16Mb RAM, color tube, etc -- with debug rather than boot ROMS, and older Unix PCs won't work nohow). -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 6 12:47:14 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Oct 5, 98 07:28:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 181 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981006/cd4dc6c4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 6 12:45:53 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on? In-Reply-To: <199810060428.AAA17163@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Oct 6, 98 00:21:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 599 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981006/e20a2b44/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 6 12:50:24 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Cheap "variac"? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 5, 98 05:36:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 474 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981006/955465c3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 6 12:58:30 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Oct 5, 98 07:47:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1275 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981006/2430e0b6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 6 15:00:40 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981006094039.00f3aad0@pc> from "John Foust" at Oct 6, 98 09:40:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 837 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981006/f8223158/attachment.ksh From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Oct 6 16:02:33 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Aquarius Data Recorders Message-ID: Well, my whole Aquarius only cost $35 with mini-expander and 3 carts, so I guess I'd go maybe $10 on a tape drive. Kai -----Original Message----- From: David Williams [mailto:dlw@trailingedge.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 1:50 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Aquarius Data Recorders I just received an email from a local group which has 250 new in box Aquarius cassette recorders. They are taking bids but I suspect you can't just buy a few but would have to take the whole lot. I have one but could use at least one more and maybe two and it would be nice to have the box and any doc or cables. Is there any interest in this out there? If so, how much would people be willing to pay? Don't forget shipping costs. Let me know. BTW, "local" in this case is Houston, TX. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 6 16:06:43 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting References: Message-ID: <361A8663.BDD76361@cnct.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > > Ooooooo.... do I forsee a religious war on what constitutes a "personal" > > computer? > > Holy war? On this list? Never. I just managed to wade through the (short for a religious war here) discussion of "what's a microprocessor". Let's try to hold off for a couple of weeks, say to Halloween or so. I'm tired. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 6 16:03:48 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Tron, con't In-Reply-To: <361A82DB.275F8C0E@cnct.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981006160348.00d1e100@pc> At 04:51 PM 10/6/98 -0400, you wrote: >> >> And Bruce Faust, one of VCF 2.0's speakers, built the render farm that >> rendered the scenes for Titanic using DEC Alpha's under NT (or so he >> SAYS! :) > >Actually, those (IIRC about 200) Dec Alphas were running Linux, not NT. >There's a fair bit of info around. Yes, I too believe they were running Linux, not WinNT, although Bruce (no relation) runs an Alpha box company that probably sells a lot of WinNT-based systems. - John From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 6 16:09:15 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting References: <19981006054658.22736.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <361A86FB.7153DDB3@cnct.com> Bob Wood wrote: > > I received a tip last year that a long time > computer business located in Mobile, Alabama was > a virtual storehouse of vintage machines. > I payed them a visit and could not get past the > receptionist. I was told that they occasionally > donated the things to be used in educational > institutions but that they were absolutely not > interested in selling anything. > About six months later I learned that the business > had closed. Subsequently, I was told by a veteran > employee of this firm that when they shut their > doors they hauled two Xerox Altos (among many others) > to the landfill. > > I told this person that it was unlikely > that they would ever have been in possesion of Xerox > Altos but he was adamant that they were indeed Xerox Altos. > > In hindsight, I now wish I had fibbed to that receptionist > and told her > that I was connected with the University of Alabama. Find out who the decisionmaker was. Place that person in a landfill. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 16:12:54 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810062112.AA15609@world.std.com> < ::It was Intel's competitors - notably Motorola and especially MOS < ::Technology - who were responsible for driving microprocessor CPU cost < ::to the hundred-dollar-level and below. That's when times really bega < ::a-changin'. Tim is right as is was MOS Tech. that lobbed the biggest shot by offering the 6502 for a mere $20 (single unit price!) at one of the computer shows. < I agree with this. The 6502 architecture and the 6800/68000 series did m Where did zilog fit in... they certainly improved on the 8080, they did it cheaper and had a design that was easier to use too. Forced intel to emphasize the 8085 that didn't extend the instructionset of the 8080 any significant amount. < to advance low-cost computing than anything Intel did. Intel seemed perf < satisfied to stay in the high-end market until relatively recently. I strongly disagree. The following were Intel chips aimed at low to mid end applications/markets. 8048/9 series the 8088 and 80188 parts (8bit bus lower cost to use design with) 8051 series That may not be the total list either. The market that intel couldn't or didn't care to be in was the $1 single chip microprocessor market where TMS1000, COPS, uCOM4 and other 4bitters can and did have a distinct presence. Allison From mark_k at iname.com Tue Oct 6 17:16:01 1998 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998 Sam Ismail wrote: >> ::Somebody's posted a Commodore C65 prototype on eBay. 4 days left and the >> ::bidding is at $1025. >> >> That's nothing. The last one sold went for $1400. (!) > >Well, how many of these "prototypes" exist? Has anyone authenticated >these things? I'd say quite a few. A couple of years ago a company which sells Amiga & Commodore spares listed C65s in their ad in Amiga Computing magazine. Christmas 96 issue, Paxtron corporation ad: Motherboards (factory new) C65 inc. all chips, latest ROM (PAL only) $70 C65 service manual $20 There is/was also a C65 mailing list. -- Mark From mbg at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 16:47:25 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: RSX-11M and CSR's Message-ID: <199810062147.AA20420@world.std.com> I think RSX has something called autoconfig which will tell you how your system is configured (apparently by actually touching the hardware).... RT-11 can only tell you a part of the information, and only if it matches the configuration of the handers... SHOW CONFIG will tell you about the machine itself (processor, memory, fpu, etc) while SHOW DEVICES will list all the devices for which at least the CSR the handler knows about responds... even if the CSR is the wrong one for that handler... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com Tue Oct 6 16:48:44 1998 From: MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5D66@NTS_EXCH> My personal list is much smaller and more mundane.. and more personal, these are machines I actually worked on when I was very young. 1) Compucolor 2 (The Model with floppy disk in the monitor housing) - I let one of these, working w/ software slip through my hands about 4-5 years ago 2) an Exidy Sorcerer - I have a story about loosing a huge folder full of software and papers because I left them at a computer store where I was working on one; when I came back next week, they had folded and were gone. every time one comes up on the net, I'm too late, alas. 3) Ohio Scientific Challenger 4p (?) -Matt Pritchard > -----Original Message----- > From: Kai Kaltenbach [SMTP:kaikal@MICROSOFT.com] > Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 5:45 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting > > Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd make a list of the Top 10 Holy > Grails > of classic microcomputer computer collecting. This is the "Rembrandt in > the > Attic" sort of stuff. These are roughly in my opinionated order, but > somewhat randomly ordered: > > 1. The Altair prototype that was to be the cover photo for Popular > Electronics but was lost in shipment > 2. Xerox Alto > 3. Mark 8 > 4. Scelbi 8H > 5. Kenbak-1 > 6. Micral 8008 > 7. Apple I > 8. An unassembled Altair 8800 Kit > 9. Busicom Japan Intel 4004-based Calculator > 10. IBM 5100 > > Kai > > From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Oct 6 16:59:32 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199810062152.OAA17240@mxu3.u.washington.edu> At 01:30 PM 10/6/98 -0500, Doug wrote: >I'm not denying that Holt produced a CPU, and it may be important in the >history of military computers. It is irrelevant in the history of the >personal computer unless there was a personal computer designed that >included it or a direct descendant. So do you judge Xerox's impact on the "personal computer" as their Xerox 820 II or 8/16 machines or by the impact PARC had on user interface metaphors? One of the more subtle things that this sort of blanket statement misses is that places like the Silicon valley are filled with folks going from job to job and bringing their knowledge (some of it classified) with them. Xerox had a tremendous impact on Sun because a lot of ex-Xeroids went to work there (look at a Dandelion box and a Sun 3/160 sometime :-) The impact of Ray's design could be indirectly felt by people who worked with him and went elsewhere. --Chuck From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Oct 6 17:20:24 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5D66@NTS_EXCH> Message-ID: <199810062115.QAA18774@trailingedge.com> On 6 Oct 98, at 16:48, Matt Pritchard wrote: > 1) Compucolor 2 (The Model with floppy disk in the monitor housing) > - I let one of these, working w/ software slip through my hands about > 4-5 > years ago That's one I played with once back in the dark ages and I wish I could find another. I have talked to people who worked there who still had a couple in the attic but didn't feel like digging them out and sending them to me, too much trouble. :-( > 2) an Exidy Sorcerer Finally got one and love it. Now if work would stop sending me around the country I could get some work done on the expansion box for it. >3) Ohio Scientific Challenger 4p (?) I'd be happy right now with any Ohio Scientific system. Though I'd really like the one, can't find my notes for the model, which had 3 processors. A 6502, Z-80 and 680x if I recall. Have the notes on it around here somewhere. Of course I'd add all of Kai's to the list too but that would throw me over 10. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 17:20:01 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: a collectors grail Message-ID: <199810062220.AA04280@world.std.com> < >> Don't you mean 1801R and 1801S? My early 18xx book doesn't list any < > Both. Mine do, I have an unusual collection of RCA data books with al < < Well, don't leave us in suspense. What's an 18101? Did it come before < or after the 1801R/1801S pair? During... it was the SBC with both chips. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 17:20:08 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810062220.AA04411@world.std.com> < Which was false, anyhow. The entire CPU was on the 3850 chip. But you < seemed to be making the claim that the 3850 wasn't a single-chip < microprocessor because it didn't contain the complete CPU. I was statin It isn't a single chip microprocessor like it's cousin the 3870. It's definately in the multichip (IE: required external chips to be a complete system). < that the 3850 CPU was as complete as the 8080, so if you are going to cl < that the 3850 wasn't a single-chip microprocessor, in order to be consis < you'll have to make the same claim about the 8080. You are confused. The 8080 is a single chip cpu that requires support chips. The F8 is a single chip cpu that requires support chips. The 3870 however (or 8048) are single chip microprocessors. See the subtle difference? Also the F8 is not as complete a cpu as the 8080 as it really has to have a lost of stuff around it or special chips to get a nominal data/address bus to interface to convential rams/roms. Allison From oajones at bright.net Tue Oct 6 17:21:35 1998 From: oajones at bright.net (oajones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Aquarius Data Recorders References: <199810061945.OAA18513@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <361A97EF.FFF@bright.net> David Williams wrote: > > I just received an email from a local group which has 250 new in > box Aquarius cassette recorders. They are taking bids but I > suspect you can't just buy a few but would have to take the whole > lot. I have one but could use at least one more and maybe two and > it would be nice to have the box and any doc or cables. Is there > any interest in this out there? If so, how much would people be > willing to pay? Don't forget shipping costs. Let me know. BTW, > "local" in this case is Houston, TX. > > ----- > David Williams - Computer Packrat > dlw@trailingedge.com > http://www.trailingedge.com Hi David, I would be interested in one cassette recorder. --Alan -- Computing since: 1982, VIC-20, CoCo, PC, CP/M Military Computers: COMTRAN 10, Nida 250 Amateur Radio since: 1971, WN8JEF, KA6EXR, N8BGR, AA4ZI BASIC, dBASE, Assembly, C++ mailto: oajones@bright.net From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Oct 6 17:24:05 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: Funny you should mention the OSI's, a saintly coworker just gave me a C4P-MF and a C3D today. The C3D is the one you were thinking of with the 3 different CPU's. I also 'always wanted' a CompuColor II, and finally found one last year, it's REALLY rare. http://www.geocities.com/~compcloset/CompuColorII.htm Still looking for a Sorcerer, but I have a couple of leads from the VCF. One gentleman has two of 'em, one of which has the S-100 box. Hasn't replied to my email yet though... Kai -----Original Message----- From: David Williams [mailto:dlw@trailingedge.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 3:20 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: RE: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting On 6 Oct 98, at 16:48, Matt Pritchard wrote: > 1) Compucolor 2 (The Model with floppy disk in the monitor housing) > - I let one of these, working w/ software slip through my hands about > 4-5 > years ago That's one I played with once back in the dark ages and I wish I could find another. I have talked to people who worked there who still had a couple in the attic but didn't feel like digging them out and sending them to me, too much trouble. :-( > 2) an Exidy Sorcerer Finally got one and love it. Now if work would stop sending me around the country I could get some work done on the expansion box for it. >3) Ohio Scientific Challenger 4p (?) I'd be happy right now with any Ohio Scientific system. Though I'd really like the one, can't find my notes for the model, which had 3 processors. A 6502, Z-80 and 680x if I recall. Have the notes on it around here somewhere. Of course I'd add all of Kai's to the list too but that would throw me over 10. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Oct 6 17:38:29 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Help Message-ID: <199810062133.QAA18858@trailingedge.com> Ok, I have a few minutes now to play around with the N* Horizon I've been fixing up. I've tried to power it up and it seems to hit the disk drive and then nothing. I've plugged some spare terminals into the port marked "Video Terminal Port" and played with baud rates and other comm settings but get nothing on any of my terminals. Also tried straight through and flipped comm cables. Can someone give me some info on these and maybe walk me through getting it set up and running so I can check and see if I've missed something? Oh, I'm trying both N*DOS 5.2 and N* CP/M 2.2. Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Oct 6 17:51:27 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199810062146.QAA18913@trailingedge.com> On 6 Oct 98, at 15:24, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Funny you should mention the OSI's, a saintly coworker just gave me a > C4P-MF and a C3D today. The C3D is the one you were thinking of with the > 3 different CPU's. Oh some people have all the luck! Guess that's what I get for being in a back water. I'd like to know more about them and see some pics if you can take some. The C3D I've only seen in ads. > I also 'always wanted' a CompuColor II, and finally found one last year, > it's REALLY rare. http://www.geocities.com/~compcloset/CompuColorII.htm That's the one. I've found a couple of collectors who had them and a few people who have worked with them but that's it. Yes, I'd class those as rare. > Still looking for a Sorcerer, but I have a couple of leads from the VCF. > One gentleman has two of 'em, one of which has the S-100 box. Hasn't > replied to my email yet though... I was jumping up and down when some guy offered me one for shipping cost. My wife thought I was crazy, wait she always thinks that. I've never been able to find the S-100 box so I've start work on one of my own. I've been told the box isn't all that rare compared with the system itself but you could have fooled me. Good luck with it. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 6 18:08:54 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: <199810062029.NAA05162@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> (message from Tom Owad on Tue, 6 Oct 98 16:28:58 -0500) References: <199810062029.NAA05162@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <19981006230854.19812.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > There's some evidence to suggest that the Lisa is the Apple VI, which raises > the question of what happened to IV and V. Sam wrote: > Nobody has the enormous free time you seem to have that allows you to > study Lisa's, so better to start explaining. Enormous free time? I wish I had that. Before Apple switched to their current marketing product numbering scheme [/] their original product numbering was of the form A where the first digit was the computer model it was related to, and the letter designated the type of product. For instance, A2Dxxxx was software on diskette for the Apple ][, A2Mxxxx was a manual for the Apple ][ or related products, and IIRC the computers themselves were A2Cxxxx. For the Apple /// products, the first digit was three. For Lisa products, it was 6. For some cross-platform products it was 9. Tom Owad > I think it would be more accurate to say that Apple considered naming the > Lisa the Apple IV. "Lisa" was originally just a code name, after all. In what way can that be said to be more accurate? Do you have any firsthand knowledge of any such plans? Aside from the marketing model numbers, the only information I've ever found regarding alternate names that may have been considered was the story about the name "Applause". Cheers, Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 6 18:12:58 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:09 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19981006231258.19821.qmail@brouhaha.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > Altair kit because it would be just a paperweight unless I built it (which > would be fun, but when I was done it would no longer be a kit). I Tony Duell wrote: > Agreed. If I ever get an unbuilt kit my first reaction is to build the > thing. Examples of 1970's packaging are not very interesting to me :-) I disagree. I have three unassembled Cromemco Dazzler kits. I plan to assemble one. But if I only had one unassembled kit I think I'd leave it that way. I personally do find the packaging to be of interest. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 6 17:02:57 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Rookie PDP help needed again... In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Oct 6, 98 11:18:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1414 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981006/36ed825a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 6 17:10:08 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Definitions In-Reply-To: from "Salzman, Jeff" at Oct 6, 98 02:43:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 156 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981006/7ce6b05a/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Oct 6 18:32:49 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Definitions Message-ID: <19981006233249.24467.qmail@hotmail.com> I think it's helpful to say that a computer is any implement, mechanical or otherwise, to aid in calculation. But this means rocks, fingers, and calculators are all computers. I guess we can say, any machine which is capable of performing something besides addition, mulitplication, subtraction, division without further input from the user. Thus, I guess a computer must either have stuff like that hard-coded (like a slide-rule) or be programmable. So, from this 1-min. train of thought, I say: A computer is any implement capable of processing super-arithmetic functions. BTW, my New Bantam English Dictionary says: A machine capable of performing highly complex mathematical calculations at very high speed. >calculator, reckoner. spec. a person employed to make calculations in an >observatory, in surveying, etc. >1646 Sir T. Browne Pseud. Ep. vi vi 289 The Clenders of these computers. >1704 .... > >I've heard that some newer editions of the OED have added some of the >more modern usages. > > >> an industry that in my lifetime went from the early commercial vacuum >> tube machines to the 64bit CPU chip running some thousands of times >> faster. > >And with software that has grown to compensate for the speed of the >hardware and keep the usefulness of the system where it was. > > >Nevertheless, it WOULD help if we agreed on basic definitions of our >fundamental terminology. > > >-- >Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com >XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com >2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 >Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 6 18:26:29 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <199810062220.AA04411@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199810062220.AA04411@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19981006232629.19878.qmail@brouhaha.com> > It isn't a single chip microprocessor like it's cousin the 3870. It's > definately in the multichip (IE: required external chips to be a complete > system). You're confusing microcontroller with microprocessor. No one else here but you is claiming that a microprocessor has to be useful without adding any chips whatsoever. That's what a single-chip-microcontroller is. The 8080 also required extra chips to be useful, but it is considered to be a microprocessor. > Also the F8 is not as complete a cpu as the 8080 as it really has to have > a lost of stuff around it or special chips to get a nominal data/address > bus to interface to convential rams/roms. I'd suggest that you go back to the F8 manual and tell us exactly what is missing iniside the 3850 chip that makes you conclude that it is a less complete CPU than an 8080. Having used both extensively, I can assure you that they both are in fact complete CPUs. Neither one has a glueless interface to memory, but so what? A Pentium II doesn't have a glueless memory interface either, but surely you won't claim that a Pentium II is not a microprocessor. You seem to be confused by the fact that an F8 system has multiple copies of the PC and data pointer replicated in the various chips. This does not make the CPU any less complete. For instance, you can't claim that the CPU doesn't have a program counter, or that it doesn't send the contents of its program counter to the memory system in order to fetch instructions. Since everyone else is long since tired of hearing about F8s, I won't contribute any further to this discussion unless you can provide a detailed explanation of what the F8 CPU is 'missing'. I can't refute your claims if I don't know what they are. I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid. :-) I might, however, get out the old Fairchild Channel F video game system tonight and play a few hands of blackjack on an F8. Eric From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Oct 6 18:43:46 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Unknown Apple II Card Message-ID: <199810062238.RAA19072@trailingedge.com> I have an unknown interface card for the Apple ][. At least I think it is for a II. It has a 50 pin connector down the front of the card. "REV E" and "SCI Typ. 1A" dated "Jan 24 '85" printed on the card. An EPROM with 8443EPP AM2732ADC Copyright 1983 AMD printed on it. That's all I can find printed on the card. Any ideas? For those who can handle images, there are a couple at: http://www.trailingedge.com/~dlw/comp/images/acard1.jpg http://www.trailingedge.com/~dlw/comp/images/acard2.jpg Not the best pictures but I have the camera here right now and may take some closeups of the board and chips. Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Oct 6 18:41:07 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <19981006234108.12128.qmail@hotmail.com> Although it's certainly interesting, I doubt my new-found knowledge of the first microprocessor is going to radically change any of my view of the world. F14CADC doesn't mean anything different than 4004. But, what I guess might be significant is that this shows how major an impact the military has played on computers. The ENIAC, F14CADC, DEC Alpha, and other stuff I'm sure can all be attributed to the pentagon. And _that_ is significant because instead of saying that the computer is a triumph of enterpreneurs and daring capitalists, we can _also_ say that it is a triumph of America's great war machine. > >the F14 CADC was the first microcomputer system that made fly by wire >practical. The 4004 was the first commercially viable single chip CPU. >Clear statments that do not conflict but do make a statment that points >to their significance. > >< I'm not denying that Holt produced a CPU, and it may be important in th >< history of military computers. It is irrelevant in the history of the >< personal computer unless there was a personal computer designed that >< included it or a direct descendant. > >Or the technology that made the silicon possible for later commercial >designs. It doesn't have to be the same design. > >< I think it's great that Holt got his story out. Footnotes always add >< depth, but no chapters need to be rewritten. > >The assuption is they are accurate chapters. ;) the depth is needed to >see how the later chapters are significant. > > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From william at ans.net Tue Oct 6 18:44:10 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <19981006231258.19821.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > > Agreed. If I ever get an unbuilt kit my first reaction is to build the > > thing. Examples of 1970's packaging are not very interesting to me :-) > > I disagree. I have three unassembled Cromemco Dazzler kits. I plan to > assemble one. But if I only had one unassembled kit I think I'd leave it > that way. I personally do find the packaging to be of interest. The Heathkit people have pretty much set a precedence with unbuilt kits - if you build one, your name turns to mud. Then they kill you. William Donzelli william@ans.net From sethm at loomcom.com Tue Oct 6 18:39:15 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sethm@loomcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Unassembled Altair kits Message-ID: <199810062339.QAA02739@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 638 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981006/cfe6bb5d/attachment.ksh From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Oct 6 18:59:40 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <199810062146.QAA18913@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: Anyone know where a C8p (floppy) exists? George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, David Williams wrote: > On 6 Oct 98, at 15:24, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > Funny you should mention the OSI's, a saintly coworker just gave me a > > C4P-MF and a C3D today. The C3D is the one you were thinking of with the > > 3 different CPU's. > > Oh some people have all the luck! Guess that's what I get for > being in a back water. I'd like to know more about them and see > some pics if you can take some. The C3D I've only seen in ads. > > > I also 'always wanted' a CompuColor II, and finally found one last year, > > it's REALLY rare. http://www.geocities.com/~compcloset/CompuColorII.htm > > That's the one. I've found a couple of collectors who had them and > a few people who have worked with them but that's it. Yes, I'd > class those as rare. > > > Still looking for a Sorcerer, but I have a couple of leads from the VCF. > > One gentleman has two of 'em, one of which has the S-100 box. Hasn't > > replied to my email yet though... > > I was jumping up and down when some guy offered me one for > shipping cost. My wife thought I was crazy, wait she always > thinks that. I've never been able to find the S-100 box so I've start > work on one of my own. I've been told the box isn't all that rare > compared with the system itself but you could have fooled me. > Good luck with it. > > > ----- > David Williams - Computer Packrat > dlw@trailingedge.com > http://www.trailingedge.com > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Oct 6 19:02:15 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Aquarius Data Recorders Message-ID: <25c3276.361aaf87@aol.com> In a message dated 10/6/98 5:25:47 PM US Eastern Standard Time, oajones@bright.net writes: > Hi David, > I would be interested in one cassette recorder. myself included. perhaps two if the price is low. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Tue Oct 6 20:00:36 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: C65 References: <199810060702.AAA20078@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <361ABD33.61C7EE2B@goldrush.com> > From: Sam Ismail > Subject: Re: Somebody has a C65 on eBay > > On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > :: > > ::Somebody's posted a Commodore C65 prototype on eBay. 4 days left and the > > ::bidding is at $1025. > > :: > > > > That's nothing. The last one sold went for $1400. (!) > > Well, how many of these "prototypes" exist? Has anyone authenticated > these things? I would venture to guess a couple hundred to several hundred. Commodore was almost to production before they decided to drop the C65 (I remember reading 1991 as the year they dopped the project). After Commodore went bankrupt some of thier warehouse assetts were liquidated, the Graprvine Group in New York had bought the one with the most c65s and were selling them for I think about $100 a unit. It kinda resembles an Amiga 500 with the floppy drive facing forward (no neumeric keypad). The c65 would best be compared to the Apple IIgs, still has its roots in the 6502 but alot of the graphics and sound are adapted from Amiga technology. It would have done well with the people wanting a more amiga-like system without sacrificing all thier Commodore 8-bit drives and such. There are enough c65s out there that some people have FTP sites of c65 programs. Unfortunately I wasn't one of the people who got a c65 on time. *sigh* -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Oct 6 19:07:10 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Vaporware (and not) from '83 CES Message-ID: New computers announced at the 1983 CES: Vaporware? Please respond if you KNOW any of these exist for SURE. - Panasonic JR-200 (I think this may exist) - Sanyo PCH20/PHC25 (Z80, 4K/16K, $99/$199) - STM Pied Piper (CP/M portable, 64K, $1295) - TI 99/2 (Supposedly $100, including 4.2K RAM) - TI CC-40 (Compact Computer 40, laptop like Epson HX-20, 4 AA cells, 31 character LCD display, $249) - Unisonic Futura 8300 (Z80, 2K, Sinclair BASIC, $90) - Video Technology VZ200 (Z80, 4K, MS BASIC, $99) Not Vaporware - Jupiter Ace - Mattel Aquarius - Spectravideo SV-318 - Timex Sinclair 2000 By the way, has anyone actually seen an TI 99/4 (not 4a)? Kai From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Oct 6 19:19:49 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Unassembled Altair kits In-Reply-To: <199810062339.QAA02739@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <199810070013.RAA05079@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Where would you like the PDP-8 shipped ? :-) --Chuck At 04:39 PM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Everyone here who's been on the list for a while knows how many >examples of the infamous "last remaining unassembled MITS Altair kit >in existence" there are. Well, I just wanted to let everyone know >that I've found another one, in L.A. -- NO, it's not mine, and it's >not going to BE mine, either. The guy who owns it fully intends to >keep it. He also has an assembled one. > >So, for anyone keeping count, add one more to the list. > >P.S. If I ever get it, I'll trade it for a PDP-8 :) > >-Seth >-- >"The crux of the biscuit Seth J. Morabito > is the apostrophe." - Frank Zappa sethm@loomcom.com > From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 6 19:20:45 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting References: Message-ID: <361AB3DD.76BC0572@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > Most of the machines on Kai's list would bring me no joy. I wouldn't want > > an Apple 1 because I'd be afraid to power it on. I wouldn't want an > > You mean a working one is considerably more valuable than a non-working > one? When I've heard about Apple 1s being sold the operational condition > is never specified, which leads me to think that the collector value > doesn't depend on that. Do the auction descriptions ever mention visibly charred traces or exploded electrolytics or smoked ICs? Since I don't bother to visit the auction sites, I've rarely (never in the case of an Apple 1) read the prospectus. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 6 18:48:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <361A84BC.E93392B@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Oct 6, 98 04:59:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 239 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981007/37480e53/attachment.ksh From foxnhare at goldrush.com Tue Oct 6 20:17:22 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting References: <199810060702.AAA20078@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <361AC11F.E79A801F@goldrush.com> Let's get this into the proper perspective here there is only one "Holy Grail" (unless you read National Inquirer then there are millions for $39.98 plus shipping and handling) Let's see if I can think of some true 'Holy Grails' of computing: 1) The pre Apple 1 prototype Steve Wozniac brought to the Homebrew Computer Club. 2) The original code listing for the BASIC he hand typed to demonstrate that computer. 3) The PDP-1 used to write and play Space War at MIT (with the original game controls) ( I know it's not a micro, but I like the idea. ) 4) 'The original' paper tape of BASIC that was pirated from Bill Gates. Now those would be 'holy grails,' something along the lines of you either don't tell anyone or are very carefull who you tell that you own them. Larry -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From tomowad at earthlink.net Tue Oct 6 20:26:17 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Apple IV/Lisa (was: Re: Somebody has a C65 on eBay) Message-ID: <199810070026.RAA12860@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >>>There's some evidence to suggest that the Lisa is the Apple VI, which raises >>>the question of what happened to IV and V. >> >> I think it would be more accurate to say that Apple considered naming the >> Lisa the Apple IV. "Lisa" was originally just a code name, after all. > >In what way can that be said to be more accurate? "...Lisa is the Apple IV" gives one the impression that the Apple IV was a definite computer, rather than just a name that was considered, but never actually used, for the Lisa. It is quite probable Apple considered using the name "Apple IV" for many computers that shipped after the Apple ///. Said Steve Wozniak, in reference to the Apple ///, "...when we reintroduced it we should have called it the Apple IV." (The Mac Bathroom Reader, pg 34). My point is, "Apple IV" is such a logical name for a computer from Apple that it could have been considered for just about anything. "Apple IV", however, is not the sort of name that was used as a codename at Apple, and therefore most likely would not have been called so in the development stage, though there are many prototypes that could have ended up bearing that name. Of course, I'm just hypothesizing here. :-) >Aside from the marketing model numbers, the only information I've ever found >regarding alternate names that may have been considered was the story about >the name "Applause". According to _The Mac Bathroom Reader_, by Owen Linzmayer, page 80: "Apple figured it needed a more professional-sounding name to appeal to the business market, so it hired an outside consulting firm to recommend a new name. Among others, they suggested Applause, Apple IV, Apple 400, The Coach, Espirit, Teacher, and The World. Quite an effort went into thinking up a different name, but the forthcoming computer had already received so much press coverage under its code name that Apple reverse engineereed the explanation that Lisa stood for 'Local Integrated Software Architecture'" If you're interested in reading about Mac History & prototypes, _The Mac Bathroom Reader" by Owen Linzmayer and _AppleDesign_ by Paul Kunkel are both excellent books. Tom Owad -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 6 19:36:59 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia References: <199810061945.MAA10684@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <361AB7AB.4C99781C@cnct.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > ::It was Intel's competitors - notably Motorola and especially MOS > ::Technology - who were responsible for driving microprocessor CPU costs > ::to the hundred-dollar-level and below. That's when times really began > ::a-changin'. > > I agree with this. The 6502 architecture and the 6800/68000 series did more > to advance low-cost computing than anything Intel did. Intel seemed perfectly > satisfied to stay in the high-end market until relatively recently. That's high-_price_, not high-_end_. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Oct 6 07:33:33 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Vaporware (and not) from '83 CES In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901bdf125$87f36080$16afadce@5x86jk> Yes the TI 99/2 was real and you can see pictures and spec's of it on the web, I'll send you the url. I have two of the TI 99's without the 'a' and the key layout is different and there is not much shiny aluminum on the 99's. I think I also have one of the TI-CC's will check in Nov when I go to Texas. > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Kai Kaltenbach > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 7:07 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Vaporware (and not) from '83 CES > > > New computers announced at the 1983 CES: > > Vaporware? Please respond if you KNOW any of these exist for SURE. > > - Panasonic JR-200 (I think this may exist) > - Sanyo PCH20/PHC25 (Z80, 4K/16K, $99/$199) > - STM Pied Piper (CP/M portable, 64K, $1295) > - TI 99/2 (Supposedly $100, including 4.2K RAM) > - TI CC-40 (Compact Computer 40, laptop like Epson HX-20, 4 AA cells, 31 > character LCD display, $249) > - Unisonic Futura 8300 (Z80, 2K, Sinclair BASIC, $90) > - Video Technology VZ200 (Z80, 4K, MS BASIC, $99) > > Not Vaporware > > - Jupiter Ace > - Mattel Aquarius > - Spectravideo SV-318 > - Timex Sinclair 2000 > > > By the way, has anyone actually seen an TI 99/4 (not 4a)? > > Kai > > > > From bwit at pobox.com Tue Oct 6 19:36:03 1998 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Vaporware (and not) from '83 CES Message-ID: <01BDF160.B4E36DC0.bwit@pobox.com> The TI CC-40 exists for sure - I've seen several of them. Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Withers Do or do not, there is no try. bwit@pobox.com Yoda ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tuesday, October 06, 1998 7:07 PM, Kai Kaltenbach [SMTP:kaikal@microsoft.com] wrote: > New computers announced at the 1983 CES: > > Vaporware? Please respond if you KNOW any of these exist for SURE. > > - Panasonic JR-200 (I think this may exist) > - Sanyo PCH20/PHC25 (Z80, 4K/16K, $99/$199) > - STM Pied Piper (CP/M portable, 64K, $1295) > - TI 99/2 (Supposedly $100, including 4.2K RAM) > - TI CC-40 (Compact Computer 40, laptop like Epson HX-20, 4 AA cells, 31 > character LCD display, $249) > - Unisonic Futura 8300 (Z80, 2K, Sinclair BASIC, $90) > - Video Technology VZ200 (Z80, 4K, MS BASIC, $99) > > Not Vaporware > > - Jupiter Ace > - Mattel Aquarius > - Spectravideo SV-318 > - Timex Sinclair 2000 > > > By the way, has anyone actually seen an TI 99/4 (not 4a)? > > Kai > > From jruschme at exit109.com Tue Oct 6 19:47:31 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Oct 7, 98 00:48:46 am" Message-ID: <199810070047.UAA22355@crobin.home.org> > > Me' I'd love a Tandy Deluxe Color Computer (can anybody give me a list > > I _think_ it was halfway between the CoCo 2 and the CoCo3. It was limited to > 64K RAM but had lower-case text (and maybe 80 columns and better > graphics). If you look at some of the OS9 header files included with Level 1 v2.0, you also get the idea that it was going to have a real serial port (6551), instead of the bit-banger. The little snippets I've seen also indicate a CoCo3-like keyboard (black instead of grey) and a big suare logo (instead of the wide one). What I don't remember is whether it was to be more like the CoCo3 or a cross between the CoCo 2B and the Dragon. You may want to check DejaNews for back articles in comp.sys.tandy by Frank Durda. I think he might have written one which summarized the beast. <<>> From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Oct 6 20:00:19 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Help Message-ID: Do you have the manuals? You'll need to check the port definitions that are set via jumpers on the open DIPs near the back of the motherboard. Also, I seem to recall that North Star DOS was generated for a specific RAM size -- I believe it's top-resident. A DOS set up for 16K would work on 32K or 48K, but not vice versa. Kai -----Original Message----- From: David Williams [mailto:dlw@trailingedge.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 3:38 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: North Star Horizon Help Ok, I have a few minutes now to play around with the N* Horizon I've been fixing up. I've tried to power it up and it seems to hit the disk drive and then nothing. I've plugged some spare terminals into the port marked "Video Terminal Port" and played with baud rates and other comm settings but get nothing on any of my terminals. Also tried straight through and flipped comm cables. Can someone give me some info on these and maybe walk me through getting it set up and running so I can check and see if I've missed something? Oh, I'm trying both N*DOS 5.2 and N* CP/M 2.2. Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From oajones at bright.net Tue Oct 6 20:11:09 1998 From: oajones at bright.net (oajones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Partner 128 Message-ID: <361ABFAC.4C4@bright.net> I picked up a cartridge at a flea market. It says PARTNER 128, Cat. No. 7361, (C)1985 TIMEWORKS, INC. What is this thing? --Alan -- Computing since: 1982, VIC-20, CoCo, PC, CP/M Military Computers: COMTRAN 10, Nida 250 Amateur Radio since: 1971, WN8JEF, KA6EXR, N8BGR, AA4ZI BASIC, dBASE, Assembly, C++ mailto: oajones@bright.net From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Oct 6 20:18:19 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199810070013.TAA19472@trailingedge.com> Nope, no manuals except a copy of the N* DOS manual and a monitor manual I believe. The system has a CPU board, disk controller and a 64K RAM board so I'd guess N*DOS should load fine. Opened it back up but don't see any DIPs near the back. There are a couple of switchs outside the case which are labeled for different baud rates for the video and printer port. On 6 Oct 98, at 18:00, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Do you have the manuals? You'll need to check the port definitions that > are set via jumpers on the open DIPs near the back of the motherboard. > > Also, I seem to recall that North Star DOS was generated for a specific > RAM size -- I believe it's top-resident. A DOS set up for 16K would work > on 32K or 48K, but not vice versa. > > Kai ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From mew_jac at swbell.net Tue Oct 6 20:23:46 1998 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: subscribe Message-ID: <361AC2A2.7D5D@swbell.net> From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Oct 6 20:21:26 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199810070016.TAA19496@trailingedge.com> Oh, wait I see the DIPs you refer to. They have plugs in them with connections between the pins. Any pin out I can look at to read what these are set for? The is one labeled BAUD RATE which the switches plug into and two others labeled L SERIAL and R SERIAL. On 6 Oct 98, at 18:00, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Do you have the manuals? You'll need to check the port definitions that > are set via jumpers on the open DIPs near the back of the motherboard. > > Also, I seem to recall that North Star DOS was generated for a specific > RAM size -- I believe it's top-resident. A DOS set up for 16K would work > on 32K or 48K, but not vice versa. > > Kai > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Williams [mailto:dlw@trailingedge.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 3:38 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: North Star Horizon Help > > > Ok, I have a few minutes now to play around with the N* Horizon > I've been fixing up. I've tried to power it up and it seems to hit the > disk drive and then nothing. I've plugged some spare terminals into the > port marked "Video Terminal Port" and played with baud rates and other > comm settings but get nothing on any of my terminals. Also tried straight > through and flipped comm cables. Can someone give me some info on these > and maybe walk me through getting it set up and running so I can check and > see if I've missed something? Oh, I'm trying both N*DOS 5.2 and N* CP/M > 2.2. > > Thanks. > > > ----- > David Williams - Computer Packrat > dlw@trailingedge.com > http://www.trailingedge.com ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Oct 6 20:21:05 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: TI CC-40 was RE: Vaporware (and not) from '83 CES Message-ID: <19981007012106.20185.qmail@hotmail.com> I have one; does anyone know where I could get a tape drive and some cartridges for it? >The TI CC-40 exists for sure - I've seen several of them. > >Bob > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Bob Withers Do or do not, there is no try. >bwit@pobox.com Yoda >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >On Tuesday, October 06, 1998 7:07 PM, Kai Kaltenbach [SMTP:kaikal@microsoft.com] wrote: >> New computers announced at the 1983 CES: >> >> Vaporware? Please respond if you KNOW any of these exist for SURE. >> >> - Panasonic JR-200 (I think this may exist) >> - Sanyo PCH20/PHC25 (Z80, 4K/16K, $99/$199) >> - STM Pied Piper (CP/M portable, 64K, $1295) >> - TI 99/2 (Supposedly $100, including 4.2K RAM) >> - TI CC-40 (Compact Computer 40, laptop like Epson HX-20, 4 AA cells, 31 >> character LCD display, $249) >> - Unisonic Futura 8300 (Z80, 2K, Sinclair BASIC, $90) >> - Video Technology VZ200 (Z80, 4K, MS BASIC, $99) >> >> Not Vaporware >> >> - Jupiter Ace >> - Mattel Aquarius >> - Spectravideo SV-318 >> - Timex Sinclair 2000 >> >> >> By the way, has anyone actually seen an TI 99/4 (not 4a)? >> >> Kai >> >> > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 6 20:27:12 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Tron, con't References: <3.0.1.32.19981006160348.00d1e100@pc> Message-ID: <361AC370.6776E8B0@cnct.com> John Foust wrote: > > At 04:51 PM 10/6/98 -0400, you wrote: > >> > >> And Bruce Faust, one of VCF 2.0's speakers, built the render farm that > >> rendered the scenes for Titanic using DEC Alpha's under NT (or so he > >> SAYS! :) > > > >Actually, those (IIRC about 200) Dec Alphas were running Linux, not NT. > >There's a fair bit of info around. > > Yes, I too believe they were running Linux, not WinNT, although > Bruce (no relation) runs an Alpha box company that probably Well, the article is in large part Digital (a division of Compaq) sales hype, but here's one of the releases about the Digital Domain project: . An article by (apparently) some of the people involved indicates both Linux and NT were involved, as well as some SGI hardware. It seems to be from the middle of a long argument. And of course, where I first read about it, Linux Journal, now has that article up at . (For some reason I first read it in the print edition, which is available somewhat earlier.) -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 6 20:49:46 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Partner 128 In-Reply-To: <361ABFAC.4C4@bright.net> from "oajones" at Oct 6, 98 09:11:09 pm Message-ID: <199810070149.SAA27800@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 706 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981006/9314e3e1/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 6 20:52:43 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <981006215243.20a00182@trailing-edge.com> >For example why is it that prople are hunting for MARK-8 and Kenbec's >when the most likely find (greatest quantity) for 8008 machines is a >MCS-8 from intel?!?! I disagree - an even *more* likely find is a 11/34a with an 8008 running the front panel! Tim. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 6 20:50:31 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:44:10 -0400 References: Message-ID: <19981007015031.20624.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > I disagree. I have three unassembled Cromemco Dazzler kits. I plan to > assemble one. But if I only had one unassembled kit I think I'd leave it > that way. I personally do find the packaging to be of interest. William Donzelli replied: > The Heathkit people have pretty much set a precedence with unbuilt kits - > if you build one, your name turns to mud. Then they kill you. Why would the Heathkit people care whether I assemble a Cromemco Dazzler kit? :-) From yowza at yowza.com Tue Oct 6 21:00:16 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Vaporware (and not) from '83 CES In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Vaporware? Please respond if you KNOW any of these exist for SURE. > > - Panasonic JR-200 (I think this may exist) Did you try to search the web? Many references to this one in Japan. > - STM Pied Piper (CP/M portable, 64K, $1295) Exists. > - TI 99/2 (Supposedly $100, including 4.2K RAM) Exists according to the web. > - TI CC-40 (Compact Computer 40, laptop like Epson HX-20, 4 AA cells, 31 > character LCD display, $249) Fairly common. -- Doug From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 6 20:56:47 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Apple IV/Lisa (was: Re: Somebody has a C65 on eBay) In-Reply-To: <199810070026.RAA12860@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net> (message from Tom Owad on Tue, 6 Oct 98 20:26:17 -0500) References: <199810070026.RAA12860@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <19981007015647.20667.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > There's some evidence to suggest that the Lisa is the Apple VI, which raises > the question of what happened to IV and V. Tom Owad wrote: > I think it would be more accurate to say that Apple considered naming the > Lisa the Apple IV. "Lisa" was originally just a code name, after all. I asked: > In what way can that be said to be more accurate? Tom replied: > "...Lisa is the Apple IV" gives one the impression that the Apple IV was > a definite computer, rather than just a name that was considered, but > never actually used, for the Lisa. OK, but who are you quoting, that said "...Lisa is the Apple IV" ??? Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 6 21:00:50 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <199810070047.UAA22355@crobin.home.org> (message from John Ruschmeyer on Tue, 6 Oct 1998 20:47:31 -0400 (EDT)) References: <199810070047.UAA22355@crobin.home.org> Message-ID: <19981007020050.20696.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Ruschmeyer wrote: > The little snippets I've seen also indicate a CoCo3-like keyboard (black > instead of grey) and a big suare logo (instead of the wide one). When the project was cancelled, Radio Shack sold off the keyboards as standalone products intended for experimenters. They were never claimed to work in any Tandy/Radio Shack computer, but in fact they worked great in a Color Computer 2. Everyone I knew with a CC2 bought one. I wish I still had the catalog number, but I threw away the packaging. We assumed that this was evidence that the Color Computer family had hit the end of the line, but then they surprised us with the 3. Eric From yowza at yowza.com Tue Oct 6 21:12:07 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <19981007015031.20624.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 7 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > > The Heathkit people have pretty much set a precedence with unbuilt kits - > > if you build one, your name turns to mud. Then they kill you. > > Why would the Heathkit people care whether I assemble a Cromemco Dazzler > kit? :-) The Heathkit People can't see very well, they carry hot soldering irons, and they kill first and ask questions later. Certain areas near Benton Harbor are *very* dangerous at night. Be carefull out there. BTW, after getting my H-8 chassis last week, I found a complete H-8 today. Yet another data-point supporting Rax's "bait" theory. -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 6 21:16:16 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia References: <19981006234108.12128.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <361ACEF0.21F087A8@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > Although it's certainly interesting, I doubt my new-found knowledge > of the first microprocessor is going to radically change any of my > view of the world. F14CADC doesn't mean anything different than > 4004. But, what I guess might be significant is that this shows how > major an impact the military has played on computers. The ENIAC, > F14CADC, DEC Alpha, and other stuff I'm sure can all be attributed > to the pentagon. Well, perhaps the ENIAC to some degree was sponsored by the War Department of the US back during the Great Patriotic War, but the rest you've mentioned are primarily results of free-market capitalism. Stuff the government sponsors doesn't work half as well and costs twice+ as much as what the market does. Or else somebody would have to claim that a government Zenith 286 is better than an NCR PC-812 of the same era -- I've worked with both. (Let's not get into the price tags on USAF parts and equipment -- the screwdrivers and toilet seats are the snowflake on the tip of the iceberg). Check out the encryption debate if you think that any government is ahead of the private sector in computer development. And NASA wasn't ahead of HP or IBM either -- they did have better PR and some lightweight casing materials that hadn't reached the open market yet. (The main reason a lot of government electronics is classified is because they hate to get laughed at). -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Oct 6 21:38:24 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Convergent Technologies workSlate Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981006172256.76ef034a@ricochet.net> At 03:13 AM 10/4/98 -0700, you wrote: >The Model 100 OTOH is more structured around word processing, I'd say. >This could be another reason for the 100's popularity and the workSlate's >lack of popularity. The m100 has three useful programs (and two worthless ones) in ROM: BASIC, Text, and TelCom. The "operating system" consists of 4 or 5 lines of 4 columns of filenames (including the ROM based ones) which you select by moving a cursor with the arrow keys and hitting return. The other half of the OpSys was BASIC commands. What really got the m100 selling, though, IMO was the fact that it could be had at Radio Shack -- and there are (were) about a gazillion of those. How many Convergent stores were there? (Or, for that matter, NEC, Olivetti, and Kyocera, who all sold versions of the Kyocera machine that the m100 was based on.) I bought my m100 with a credit card at a Radio Shack. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Oct 6 21:38:24 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981006175136.4bf77128@ricochet.net> At 03:44 PM 10/5/98 -0700, you wrote: >Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd make a list of the Top 10 Holy Grails >of classic microcomputer computer collecting. This is the "Rembrandt in the Hmmm... Seems like your list got garbled in transmission... Here's what it should have looked like, I think: Canon FlatCat STM Systems Baby! 1 Teleram Model 4000 and 5000 Atari ST Book and ST Pad Apricot Portable Dynalogic Hyperion Osborne "Encore" and "Vixen" Gavilan GRiD Compass 1100 Toshiba T1100 Unfortunately, I've only got one of those so far. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Oct 6 21:38:25 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981006180716.4befa050@ricochet.net> At 08:24 PM 10/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance >represented on this list. If I've got any that aren't duplicated, I'd guess them to be: NEC PC-8201 (not the PC-8201A) Datavue 25 Iasis Computer-in-a-Book (I think Hal Layer has one, but I don't think he's on the list) Symbolics 3600 Seequa Chameleon? Sanyo MBC-8000 Zenith ZP-150? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Oct 6 21:38:25 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981006181010.4bef2f08@ricochet.net> At 08:38 PM 10/5/98 -0700, you wrote: >How many people have a Chameleon? A friend of mine gave it to me probably 5 >or so years ago when he was cleaning out his garage. Bzzzt... Got three. Also have some scans (from a former employee of Seequa) of one of the brochures. (Gotta remember to get back to him to get more info.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Oct 6 21:55:44 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does this mean in order to find my long sought after deluxe Ohio Scientific C2-4PMF I really need to set out some bait (like my incomplete OSI)? George Rachor Still looking for 5.25 and 8" OSI systems.... ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On 7 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > > > > The Heathkit people have pretty much set a precedence with unbuilt kits - > > > if you build one, your name turns to mud. Then they kill you. > > > > Why would the Heathkit people care whether I assemble a Cromemco Dazzler > > kit? :-) > > The Heathkit People can't see very well, they carry hot soldering irons, > and they kill first and ask questions later. Certain areas near Benton > Harbor are *very* dangerous at night. Be carefull out there. > > BTW, after getting my H-8 chassis last week, I found a complete H-8 today. > Yet another data-point supporting Rax's "bait" theory. > > -- Doug > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 22:04:27 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Rookie PDP help needed again... Message-ID: <199810070304.AA24108@world.std.com> < The only thing on the board is what's on the handle; "M8186". There is < circular sticker on the underside of one handle that says "mpg jun/81" < it. There are four 40-pin sockets (individual pin sockets on the board) < with the following configuration: < < 1) AMI 303D & AMI 302F on 8048 DEC < 2) AMI 303D & AMI 303D on 8117 DEC < 3) Empty < 4) AMI 304E What's th3 point it's a m8186 kdf-11, aka 11/23? the only thing I can add about it is it appears to have the FIS (floating point extended instruction set) that should run most anything in the way of DEC OSs with the only question being is it limited to 18bit or 22bit able. The latter being less of an issue unless your using more than 256k of ram or certaion backplanes/periperals. < One of my problems is that 4 8" drives are my only storage devices. Any < advice on getting RT-11 or RSX on 8" floppies? I have a bunch of disks, < though I have no way of knowing if they're any good, but no way to writ < to them. RT-11 was nominally supplied on rx01 (8" single density) or rx02 (8" double density) floppies. RSX-11 wants a hard disk for swapping and all. < As far as the Multifunction board, I checked the pins of the console < port with a scope but I can't seem to get anything from it at boot. I < checked the scope on another serial output source and it seems to be < working OK, so I'm assuming that the port on the PDP just isn't giving m 1 which port there are two? 2 is one of the ports set up as a console? 3 is the rom on the MXV setup for the correct boot and is the rom installed? 4 can you hit break and get console ODT prompt and actions? There is a good possibility you have a improperly configured MXV-11 and there is a sea of jumpers on it and it must have the correct proms installed as well. < any console messages immediately on power up? Does it display the POST < procedure, like my Vaxstation? One Sun 3/50 I had with 12 megs of ram to No! The BDV11 if you had it does. < around a minute to display a console message; should there be a long del < like that when booting a PDP-11? If there is a few hundred K maybe 10-20 sec. usually you hear some disk activity before that and then it boots. You vax and Sun knowledge is not helping you as this isn't them. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 22:04:42 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: <199810070304.AA24212@world.std.com> < Tony Duell wrote: < > Agreed. If I ever get an unbuilt kit my first reaction is to build the < > thing. Examples of 1970's packaging are not very interesting to me :- < < I disagree. I have three unassembled Cromemco Dazzler kits. I plan to < assemble one. But if I only had one unassembled kit I think I'd leave i < that way. I personally do find the packaging to be of interest. I'm with tony as the early altairs were not packaged other than needed for shipping. Mine was very early and mostly poly bags of stuff like screws, nuts washers wires and non esd sensitive parts, MOS parts in black foam and sockets in pink foam. The PC card were between sheets of cardboard and it was all in a box with a xeroxed 4th generation manual with atleast two erata sheets for each board. Not much to look at. Some of the later 8800a and the 8800b machine had some nice bent corrigated and all. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 22:04:47 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810070304.AA24363@world.std.com> < major an impact the military has played on computers. The ENIAC, < F14CADC, DEC Alpha, and other stuff I'm sure can all be attributed < to the pentagon. While the military was a prime consumer of advaced technoology and even fostered some, how the hell did DEC Alpha get in there? Alpha was developed by DEC as an answer to what to do to create the next generation of better than VAX machines (they were betting the farm on it too!). It was the exact thing DEC was doing when they developed the VAX to better the PDP-11. < And _that_ is significant because instead of saying that the computer < is a triumph of enterpreneurs and daring capitalists, we can _also_ < say that it is a triumph of America's great war machine. political crock unfortunatly. Most of the developments were actually driven trying to be better than that competition. At that time you had AMD, AMI, Intel Fairchild, RCA, Signetics, TI, motorola, MOS technology, SMC and that's only the few. That commercial space battle was far higher pitched and far longer lasting than any war. Also if anything any of the guys here that were in the military will tell you while the F14 CADC or other hardware were at one time advaced they also tended to stay in service for many years after the commercial space caught up and passed it! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 22:05:00 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: <199810070305.AA24513@world.std.com> < 4) 'The original' paper tape of BASIC that was pirated from Bill Gates. How do you know it was paper tape... MITS basic that was "pirated" was often supplied on MITS ACR format audio tape. Still have one! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 22:05:07 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Help Message-ID: <199810070305.AA24614@world.std.com> < Ok, I have a few minutes now to play around with the N* Horizon < I've been fixing up. I've tried to power it up and it seems to hit the < disk drive and then nothing. I've plugged some spare terminals into < the port marked "Video Terminal Port" and played with baud rates < and other comm settings but get nothing on any of my terminals. There is no resident monitor or software other than a disk boot in a standard horizon. It will not say anything to a terminal untill it boots (assuming the booted code has something to say). If the boot fails likley the only signals you get is disk activity or the lack of it. Make sure you have at least 32k of ram starting at 0000 for CPM or 16k starting at 2000h for NSdos. < Also tried straight through and flipped comm cables. Can < someone give me some info on these and maybe walk me through < getting it set up and running so I can check and see if I've missed < something? Oh, I'm trying both N*DOS 5.2 and N* CP/M 2.2. Are they personalized for the machine and are all the port headers don on the mother board set up correctly? Are the media the correct density for the controller in use? I have and still run one. it occurs to me, if you have DOCS for it the setup and checkout procedure is in there. Allison From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 6 22:13:39 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting References: Message-ID: <361ADC63.72E3D21B@cnct.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Agreed. If I ever get an unbuilt kit my first reaction is to build the > > > thing. Examples of 1970's packaging are not very interesting to me :-) Definitely. I was there. In my "prime" of youth. While I sometimes wore slightly flared trousers, I never owned a "disco suit". > > > > I disagree. I have three unassembled Cromemco Dazzler kits. I plan to > > assemble one. But if I only had one unassembled kit I think I'd leave it > > that way. I personally do find the packaging to be of interest. > > The Heathkit people have pretty much set a precedence with unbuilt kits - > if you build one, your name turns to mud. Then they kill you. Then why did these obvious assholes get interested in kits? They might as well collect old boxes of Macaroni-and-Cheese. If the packaging is what counts, who cares if weevils ate the pasta? I get a "new" machine, I look inside to make sure of no obvious flood or rain damage or other debris. I vacuum out the dust and dirt. I plug it in. I turn it on. Then if necessary I fix it -- for some reason a rare necessity in my old Radio Shack machines. As the man said, only the good die young. I don't collect kits (though if anybody sees a DigiComp I around, I'll grab it), but if I did I'd build them. Static displays are for Lenin's tomb, other cemetaries, and museums. If something does nothing, I've no use for it, best let somebody else have it who doesn't care. (I do leave slack for my wife's curios -- she enjoys looking at them and dusting them, no matter how much otherwise useful space they take up where computers should go -- I have enough problems with the tons of science fiction books also taking up space, many of which I _know_ I won't be rereading anytime soon, but if I sell them to a used-book dealer, he might sell them to someone else and then it'll be a bitch finding them when I _do_ want to reread them). -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From marvin at rain.org Tue Oct 6 22:17:16 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Product Numbering, was Re: Somebody has a C65 on eBay References: <199810062029.NAA05162@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <19981006230854.19812.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <361ADD3C.33BAD315@rain.org> Eric Smith wrote: > Before Apple switched to their current marketing product numbering scheme > > [/] > > their original product numbering was of the form > > A Information like this is rather useful! Do you (or anyone else) have similar information for other computers? From oajones at bright.net Tue Oct 6 22:19:03 1998 From: oajones at bright.net (oajones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Partner 128 References: <199810070149.SAA27800@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <361ADDA7.558@bright.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > :: > ::I picked up a cartridge at a flea market. It says PARTNER 128, Cat. No. > ::7361, (C)1985 TIMEWORKS, INC. What is this thing? > :: > > The Partner 128 is an integrated software cartridge for the Commodore 128. It > contains some basic office applications, DOS wedge, etc. Sold fairly well, as > I recall. > Hi Cameron, I forgot to mention that the cartridge has a white push button and a joystick cable connected to it. Thanks for the information. --Alan -- Computing since: 1982, VIC-20, CoCo, PC, CP/M Military Computers: COMTRAN 10, Nida 250 Amateur Radio since: 1971, WN8JEF, KA6EXR, N8BGR, AA4ZI BASIC, dBASE, Assembly, C++ mailto: oajones@bright.net From william at ans.net Tue Oct 6 22:26:09 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:10 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <361ADC63.72E3D21B@cnct.com> Message-ID: > Then why did these obvious assholes get interested in kits? They > might as well collect old boxes of Macaroni-and-Cheese. If the > packaging is what counts, who cares if weevils ate the pasta? Think, please...these people (the vacuum tube era Heathkit people, AKA Boatanchor types) did not buy their transmitters and receivers back in the 1950s and never build them! Of course they built them! Thousands of them! Today, nearly all Heathkit type ham gear is fairly easy to obtain today, all built up. Unbuilt kits from the era, however, are very rare, and command a BIG price tag. To build one not only rips to shreads any historic fabric of the kit, but is also finacially a stupid thing to do. If you have an unbuilt kit, maybe an old Heathkit Mohawk, or maybe an EC-1, or maybe even an Altair, and really want a working, complete version, I think you could sell the kit and get TWO complete ones! My unbuilt Sphere-1 is getting donated to RCS/RI, with the understanding that the boards will never see an iron. Of course, anyone can do whatever they want to their machines or kits...I am just soapboxing. William Donzelli william@ans.net From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 22:34:29 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Help Message-ID: <199810070334.AA16687@world.std.com> < Also, I seem to recall that North Star DOS was generated for a specific < size -- I believe it's top-resident. A DOS set up for 16K would work on < or 48K, but not vice versa. No it isn't. The controller fills the e800h to efffh space but NSdos is ORGed for 2000h and up. CPM is top resident and for the NS* that usually means a 58k maximum system unless there are some tricks appled. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 22:34:36 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Help Message-ID: <199810070334.AA16785@world.std.com> < Nope, no manuals except a copy of the N* DOS manual and a < monitor manual I believe. The system has a CPU board, disk < controller and a 64K RAM board so I'd guess N*DOS should load < fine. Opened it back up but don't see any DIPs near the back. < There are a couple of switchs outside the case which are labeled < for different baud rates for the video and printer port. The dips are on the mother board at the rear of the machine inside. They set up all of the IO charateristics including the sense of pins two and three in the serial connectors. I know of no Horizon that has switches for baud rates, that was a user mod. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 6 22:34:42 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810070334.AA16866@world.std.com> < >For example why is it that prople are hunting for MARK-8 and Kenbec's < >when the most likely find (greatest quantity) for 8008 machines is a < >MCS-8 from intel?!?! < < I disagree - an even *more* likely find is a 11/34a with an 8008 < running the front panel! Tim, That would be the case if I were looking for anything with an 8008. I was thinking more of a SBC or Evaluation board when I wrote that. Allison From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Oct 6 22:34:27 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: <19981006.224233.145.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:12:07 -0500 (CDT) Doug Yowza writes: >On 7 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > >> > The Heathkit people have pretty much set a precedence with unbuilt >kits - >> > if you build one, your name turns to mud. Then they kill you. >> >> Why would the Heathkit people care whether I assemble a Cromemco >Dazzler >> kit? :-) > >The Heathkit People can't see very well, they carry hot soldering >irons, >and they kill first and ask questions later. Certain areas near >Benton >Harbor are *very* dangerous at night. Be carefull out there. > >BTW, after getting my H-8 chassis last week, I found a complete H-8 >today. >Yet another data-point supporting Rax's "bait" theory. Damn. I wish I'd known this a zillion years ago when I could have grabbed an H-11 shell I saw in an L.A. scrapyard. I'd be using it for trolling right about now . . . Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Oct 6 23:01:14 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Unknown Apple II Card Message-ID: <003301bdf1a7$21ac14c0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> It's a Host adapter for the SIDER hard drive. I believ it is SCSI type. I have the manual and software if you ever get your hands on a sider Hard drive. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: David Williams To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 6:40 PM Subject: Unknown Apple II Card I have an unknown interface card for the Apple ][. At least I think it is for a II. It has a 50 pin connector down the front of the card. "REV E" and "SCI Typ. 1A" dated "Jan 24 '85" printed on the card. An EPROM with 8443EPP AM2732ADC Copyright 1983 AMD printed on it. That's all I can find printed on the card. Any ideas? For those who can handle images, there are a couple at: http://www.trailingedge.com/~dlw/comp/images/acard1.jpg http://www.trailingedge.com/~dlw/comp/images/acard2.jpg Not the best pictures but I have the camera here right now and may take some closeups of the board and chips. Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Oct 6 23:03:55 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Help In-Reply-To: <199810070305.AA24614@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810070258.VAA20023@trailingedge.com> On 6 Oct 98, at 23:05, Allison J Parent wrote: > There is no resident monitor or software other than a disk boot in > a standard horizon. It will not say anything to a terminal untill > it boots (assuming the booted code has something to say). If the boot > fails likley the only signals you get is disk activity or the lack of it. > > Make sure you have at least 32k of ram starting at 0000 for CPM or > 16k starting at 2000h for NSdos. I would do that is I knew how. My memory board has several jumpers and a couple of 8-switch dip switches but I have no doc on the board so don't know memory settings. It is a 64K board so I would assume I have a full address space. It is a N* RAM board BTW. > Are they personalized for the machine and are all the port headers don on > the mother board set up correctly? Are the media the correct density for > the controller in use? Good question. These were sent to me by someone on the list. The disks are 10 sectored (hard) double sided double density. The controller is an N* Micro Disk Controller MDS-AD or that is all I can see on it. > > I have and still run one. > > it occurs to me, if you have DOCS for it the setup and checkout procedure > is in there. The only doc I have is a copy of the N* Monitor doc and the N*DOS doc. I see the stuff in the N*DOS doc about "personalizing dos". Any other tips to help out? Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 6 23:10:04 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 (was Re: Convergent Technologies workSlate) References: <3.0.16.19981006172256.76ef034a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <361AE99C.8FF1E58@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 03:13 AM 10/4/98 -0700, you wrote: > >The Model 100 OTOH is more structured around word processing, I'd say. > >This could be another reason for the 100's popularity and the workSlate's > >lack of popularity. I'd call it text editing rather than word processing -- since the Model 100 had minimal formatting capability (width before wrap). I've never seen a workslate. As a former employee at the old Convergent campus in San Jose, I'd love to find one -- none were in evidence when I was there, though there were a fair number of NGEN boxes (which I know little about -- wasn't my department) and quite a few Unix PCs around still being used -- as a 3B1 owner long before I got there, I managed to get three into my cubical to use as terminals to the machines I was testing. Sort of a pity I was a Unisys hire and Convergent had technically ceased to exist a couple of years previously. > The m100 has three useful programs (and two worthless ones) in ROM: BASIC, > Text, and TelCom. The "operating system" consists of 4 or 5 lines of 4 > columns of filenames (including the ROM based ones) which you select by > moving a cursor with the arrow keys and hitting return. The other half of > the OpSys was BASIC commands. > > What really got the m100 selling, though, IMO was the fact that it could be > had at Radio Shack -- and there are (were) about a gazillion of those. How > many Convergent stores were there? (Or, for that matter, NEC, Olivetti, > and Kyocera, who all sold versions of the Kyocera machine that the m100 was > based on.) > > I bought my m100 with a credit card at a Radio Shack. It also got very good press because with the built-in modem even at 300bps, a reporter could phone in his story without the added typos of dictation. I've mentioned before that I helped deliver at least $500,000 of these machines to the LA Times -- they got a quantity discount that basically meant that the 24k machines got the other 8k thrown in. The NEC and Olivetti versions depended on external modems (I've never seen specs on a Kyocera-labeled machine), which are not usually functional with public phones due to lack of power outlets until the PocketModems came out. And until modular jacks became regularly available with public and hotel phones. Yes, in the long run it hurt, since the built-in modem was only 300. Ever met a field reporter who can dictate a story faster? (Not how fast he can ask questions). The Mod 100 acoustic cups ate battery power, but they worked if the phone did. And I seem to recall that that's the year that 1200 bps modems broke the $500 price barrier in non-portable form factors. Oh, the "two worthless ones" was one program primed for two filenames. A minor addition to the "Search" portion of the text editor. If they took 200 bytes of ROM, I'd be surprised. The real sacrifice was in the reduction of entries in the directory. Which I recall a program showed up in PCM in the 2nd or 3rd issue to elimate the address and schedule program directory entries. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Oct 6 23:23:59 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Help In-Reply-To: <199810070334.AA16785@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810070318.WAA20078@trailingedge.com> On 6 Oct 98, at 23:34, Allison J Parent wrote: > The dips are on the mother board at the rear of the machine inside. > They set up all of the IO charateristics including the sense of pins two > and three in the serial connectors. Yes, I found them but would like to know how to read them. > I know of no Horizon that has switches for baud rates, that was a user > mod. Could be but was there some kit sold for this? There is a nice sticker-label thing the switch fit through which is labeled with arrows pointing from each swith to the port and the baud rates for each position of each switch. 300, 1200 and 9600 for the "Video Terminal Port" pointing at 0 and the "Printer Port" pointing at 1. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Oct 6 23:27:36 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Unknown Apple II Card In-Reply-To: <003301bdf1a7$21ac14c0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: <199810070322.WAA20095@trailingedge.com> Ok, guess I'll have to look for a SIDER if that's what this is. Wish I'd know that when I was at the thrift where I picked it up. Unfortunately they recently threw everything out and became a $0.99 store. Shame because they still had a bunch of computer stuff I wanted to pick up. On 6 Oct 98, at 23:01, Francois wrote: > It's a Host adapter for the SIDER hard drive. I believ it is SCSI type. I > have the manual and software if you ever get your hands on a sider Hard > drive. Francois ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From scott at isd.canberra.edu.au Tue Oct 6 23:51:55 1998 From: scott at isd.canberra.edu.au (Scott McLauchlan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Vaporware (and not) from '83 CES Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981007145153.00838580@cts.canberra.edu.au> At 17:07 6/10/98 -0700, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >New computers announced at the 1983 CES: > >Vaporware? Please respond if you KNOW any of these exist for SURE. > [Snip] >- Video Technology VZ200 (Z80, 4K, MS BASIC, $99) Not only do these exist, they were very popular in Australia in the mid-80s. They were marketed as the Dick Smith VZ-200 (Dick Smith is *the* major electronics retailer in Australia). Not only that, but there was also a VZ-300 (also known as the Video Technology Laser 310). For details, please see the following URLs: http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~alexios/MACHINE-ROOM/Video,Technology_Laser_200. html http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~alexios/MACHINE-ROOM/Dick,Smith,Electronics_VZ-2 00.html http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~alexios/MACHINE-ROOM/Dick,Smith,Electronics_VZ-3 00.html http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~alexios/MACHINE-ROOM/Video,Technology_Laser_310. html >By the way, has anyone actually seen an TI 99/4 (not 4a)? Yes, I've got one, Unfortunatly I have no power supply for it. Not only that, but I don't know what the power supply pinout is, nor where I could get a plug to suit the strange power supply socket (it's just like the one for the TI-99/4a, except one of the pins is bigger, so a TI-99/4a socket won't fit). For details on the TI-99/4, see http://99er.interspeed.net/994.html Regards, | Scott McLauchlan |E-Mail: scott@cts.canberra.edu.au | | Network Services Team |Phone : +61 2 6201 5544 (Ext.5544)| | Client Services Division |Post : University of Canberra, | | University of Canberra, AUSTRALIA | ACT, 2601, AUSTRALIA. | From scott at isd.canberra.edu.au Wed Oct 7 00:16:24 1998 From: scott at isd.canberra.edu.au (Scott McLauchlan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981007151624.00871100@cts.canberra.edu.au> At 19:38 6/10/98 -0700, Uncle Roger wrote: >At 08:24 PM 10/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance >>represented on this list. > >If I've got any that aren't duplicated, I'd guess them to be: > >NEC PC-8201 (not the PC-8201A) [Snip] What is the difference between the PC-8201 and the PC-8201A? I've got two PC-8201As, and what *seems* to be an PC-8201. It's a different, bronze, colour and has "NEC PC-8201" printed on the top left-hand corner. However, the silver sticker on the bottom of the computer says it is a PC-8201A. How can I tell for sure which I have? Regards, | Scott McLauchlan |E-Mail: scott@cts.canberra.edu.au | | Network Services Team |Phone : +61 2 6201 5544 (Ext.5544)| | Client Services Division |Post : University of Canberra, | | University of Canberra, AUSTRALIA | ACT, 2601, AUSTRALIA. | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 7 02:19:10 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Aquarius Data Recorders In-Reply-To: <199810061945.OAA18513@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, David Williams wrote: > I just received an email from a local group which has 250 new in > box Aquarius cassette recorders. They are taking bids but I > suspect you can't just buy a few but would have to take the whole > lot. I have one but could use at least one more and maybe two and > it would be nice to have the box and any doc or cables. Is there > any interest in this out there? If so, how much would people be > willing to pay? Don't forget shipping costs. Let me know. BTW, > "local" in this case is Houston, TX. I'd be interested in 5 at $5 a piece. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 7 02:20:42 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Tron, con't In-Reply-To: <361A82DB.275F8C0E@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > And Bruce Faust, one of VCF 2.0's speakers, built the render farm that > > rendered the scenes for Titanic using DEC Alpha's under NT (or so he > > SAYS! :) > > Actually, those (IIRC about 200) Dec Alphas were running Linux, not NT. > There's a fair bit of info around. Well, being that I was told this directly by Bruce Faust, I would tend to believe him. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 7 02:45:52 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Vaporware (and not) from '83 CES In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > - Panasonic JR-200 (I think this may exist) Pretty sure this one exists as someone offered one to me but never followed thru (you know who you are :) > - TI CC-40 (Compact Computer 40, laptop like Epson HX-20, 4 AA cells, 31 > character LCD display, $249) Exists. Roger Sinasohn has one, and I held it at VCF (in the box even). Max Eskin also recently informed us of a find. > By the way, has anyone actually seen an TI 99/4 (not 4a)? Yep. On the web :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Oct 7 03:07:19 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Top 10 sins of a computer scrapper Message-ID: <7734dbf8.361b2137@aol.com> Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa. I have sinned. I am retireing after 10 yrs of reselling computer, test and laboratory equipment. It was with interest and dismay that I read the top 10 Holy Grails and the following threads. After ballooning up to 16,000 sq. Ft of warehouse my partner insisted on scrapping large parts of the inventory. I was an accumulator, he was a scrapper. Needless to say we didn't last. Unfortunitely during that time we destroyed a lot of older computers including a Xerox Alto, I recognized it later on Revenge of the Nerds several Xerox Stars, I have some of the factory software left and maybe a mouse. a Magnolia Jaquard 100 Word Processor Used the 4004 computer chip Unknown SBC with an 8008 chip, I saved the chip (Std bus I believe) 3 IBM 5100s Scores of early Intel development systems including several Prompt-48 and MCS-8, we bought large lots from Intel Chameleon, I may have a manual or two. Litton 1251, Dual drum memory 400K, punch tape programmed PDP-8 Several Teraks Cincinatti Millichron 2000, I may have a programming card left I'm sure some of the big iron counts but I didn't know that field well. OK so this is more than 10. Where were you guys 4 years ago? I'm really sorry for my part.It is really hard to figure out what is collectable, particularly if you don't recognize it. I felt really bad when I finally recognized that that funny looking Drive with Xerox on it. Is there any interest in a DEC VAX 730, a General Automation Zebra 5500 (a Pick machine), DEC RA60 & RA81s, Tektronix 4113, NCR 1000. These need to go very soon. I enjoy the list. Thanks a lot. Paxton From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Oct 7 03:07:18 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Smoke Signal Broadcasting FS Message-ID: I have gotten lots of requests for details on this system. So I am posting a list of Chieftain systems and their board count that I have for sale. I am open to all offers, of course I am looking for the best one. Please reply to whoagiii@aol.com not to the list. I and the equipment are in Portland, Oregon. Smoke Signal Broadcasting System 1) Chieftain with a wood top. with 2 5 1/4" FHFD and the following boards LMB-1A 9 slot Backplane with 8 slots IO 6809 CPU OS9-SCB69 CIMIX 64K Static Ram M512X populated with 128K 2X M32-X 1 fully populated, the other 6 of 8 banks full M16-X Fully populated DCB 4A Drive Controller 4 2 port serial cards 2) Dual 8" DSDD with a wood top. Qumetrack 242s, attaches to #1 3) Chieftain with wood top with a 5 1/4" FH MFM Hard Drive with an attached Omti 20C Controller LMB-1A 9 slot Backplane with 8 slots IO CPU 50719, 68B09, OS9 SCB-69 M512X with 128K 2X CIMIX 64K Static Ram M16-X Fully populated M32-X Fully populated HDA-P/STA-A/HDA-S 4X 2 port Serial Cards It is interesting that the unit with the hard drive has no floppy. There is wiring that leads me to believe that one power switch turned on all three units at the same time. This is cut now. Paxton From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Oct 7 03:07:16 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Cromemco FS Message-ID: <395cef51.361b2134@aol.com> I have gotten lots of requests for details on the systems. So I am posting a list of Cromemco systems and boards that I have FS. I am open to all offers, of course I am looking for the best one. Please reply to whoagiii@aol.com not to the list. Portland, Oregon 97214 is home. Cromemco C 10 Computer with evternal 5 1/4" Floppy and Kbd I think this system was the controller for the Computer following System 2 in a dual height wood cabinet 30"X24"X36" with a 5 1/4 FHFD and the following cards : UUX 68020 CPU wi 68881 - 16 mhz 64FDC PRI STDC SFLSH 2 2048 MSU MCU SVID SDMB 1024 KTD SDCM SDMA The following software in 6 boxes of 5 1/4 disks containing Fortran IV, Ptr., Com, WP, Proprint, Procall, backup and Data and 68000 Fortran 77. Most of the disks are copies and not originals. The following Books a Binder of Program data, Cromix-plus users manual, Intro to C+, Baseline Graphics Inst., S Series Board Family Inst., SDD Camera Digitizer Board Manual, SDCM Color Monitor Board Manual, C-% Tech Reference, Cromix+ Programming, 68020 Cromix Admin. This system may not be complete. The boards appear to be out of order and the cables pulled off the cards. All of the cables may not be there. System 3 with 2 8" 1/2 Ht Floppys and a 5 1/4" hard drive (I would have to remove it to identify it) and the following cards 4X 256KZ Memory DPU 68000/8 Octart 16FDC WDI-II System 1, CS-1H, 6/13/83, 8 Slot MF with the following cards WDI-II 4X 256K Memory DPU Z80 & 68000/8 Octart 16FDC This Octart brake3out cable is homemade. It breaks out to 8 serial connectors mounted on a wood board. One of the cables has been damaged by it being ripped out of its plug. Extra Cards and Parts, please bid each. 3X 64KZ-I 2X 256KTP ZPU ZCPU SCC 64FDC TU-ART Quadart attached to a IOP Keyboard All are untested. After reading the threads about starting old systems I decided to sell them as-is untested. Thank you, Paxton From franke at sbs.de Wed Oct 7 06:32:50 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Vaporware (and not) from '83 CES Message-ID: <199810071014.MAA16882@marina.fth.sbs.de> > - Panasonic JR-200 (I think this may exist) Exists, I have one. > - Sanyo PCH20/PHC25 (Z80, 4K/16K, $99/$199) Exists (at least acording to some web sites. > - STM Pied Piper (CP/M portable, 64K, $1295) Never heared of. > - TI 99/2 (Supposedly $100, including 4.2K RAM) Never heared of. > - TI CC-40 (Compact Computer 40, laptop like Epson HX-20, 4 AA cells, 31 > character LCD display, $249) Exists - I miss it in my collection, but have seen several > - Unisonic Futura 8300 (Z80, 2K, Sinclair BASIC, $90) I have one, originaly boxed, althrough the box name is different (Your Computer). But almost any Exemplar I know has a different name. > - Video Technology VZ200 (Z80, 4K, MS BASIC, $99) I own two of them. They have been somewhat popular for a very short time. > By the way, has anyone actually seen an TI 99/4 (not 4a)? Shure, have one, barebone :( Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From fauradon at pclink.com Wed Oct 7 06:35:28 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Unknown Apple II Card Message-ID: <000f01bdf1e6$95eab140$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> You might be able to use any 10Mb (or so) external SCSI drive, I'm not sure about that though. I can get the connector pinout from mine, I haven't taken it apart yet so I don't know what Hard drive it takes. I could chek if nobody else has the answer ready. Experts please? Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: David Williams To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 11:24 PM Subject: Re: Unknown Apple II Card Ok, guess I'll have to look for a SIDER if that's what this is. Wish I'd know that when I was at the thrift where I picked it up. Unfortunately they recently threw everything out and became a $0.99 store. Shame because they still had a bunch of computer stuff I wanted to pick up. On 6 Oct 98, at 23:01, Francois wrote: > It's a Host adapter for the SIDER hard drive. I believ it is SCSI type. I > have the manual and software if you ever get your hands on a sider Hard > drive. Francois ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Oct 7 07:03:01 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Unknown Apple II Card Message-ID: <6ecbfcdd.361b5875@aol.com> I have the drive but no adaptor and when i took mine apart, it appears to be just a standard seagate mfm type drive, i think mine was an st-225. In a message dated 10/6/98 11:00:22 PM US Eastern Standard Time, fauradon@pclink.com writes: > It's a Host adapter for the SIDER hard drive. I believ it is SCSI type. I > have the manual and software if you ever get your hands on a sider Hard > drive. > Francois From handyman at sprintmail.com Tue Oct 6 20:29:22 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Aquarius Data Recorders References: Message-ID: <361AC3F1.A6C78B02@sprintmail.com> > > I just received an email from a local group which has 250 new in > > box Aquarius cassette recorders. They are taking bids but I > > suspect you can't just buy a few but would have to take the whole > > lot. I have one but could use at least one more and maybe two and > > it would be nice to have the box and any doc or cables. Is there > > any interest in this out there? If so, how much would people be > > willing to pay? Don't forget shipping costs. Let me know. BTW, > > "local" in this case is Houston, TX. > I have 2 Mattel Aquarius's, so I could use about 4ea. at 5 bucks each... Phil... From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 7 08:41:54 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Top 10 sins of a computer scrapper Message-ID: <199810071341.AA17651@world.std.com> < Where were you guys 4 years ago? I'm really sorry for my part.It is real < hard to figure out what is collectable, particularly if you don't recogn Here in MA doing what I do now. I collect stuff I've used to would like to have but couldn't afford back then. Much of it is pseudo collectable, IE: I collect it but that does not assume it has any value other than I'd like to set it up and actually run it. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 7 08:42:07 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Help Message-ID: <199810071342.AA18091@world.std.com> < I would do that is I knew how. My memory board has several < jumpers and a couple of 8-switch dip switches but I have no doc on < the board so don't know memory settings. It is a 64K board so I < would assume I have a full address space. It is a N* RAM board < BTW. Can't help on that no docs for that board. < > Are they personalized for the machine and are all the port headers don < > the mother board set up correctly? Are the media the correct density < > the controller in use? < < Good question. These were sent to me by someone on the list. < The disks are 10 sectored (hard) double sided double density. The < controller is an N* Micro Disk Controller MDS-AD or that is all I can < see on it. The MDS-AD is a double density controller...ok there. Now the disks can be formatted as 48tpi or 96 tpi as the controller will support most 5.25 drives and if the drive is wrong... Personalizing, if they were set up for different IO they may not work on you NS*. < Any other tips to help out? Get docs! Your working blind without them. Allison From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 7 09:10:50 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <199810070305.AA24513@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981007091050.00f61d60@pc> At 11:05 PM 10/6/98 -0400, Allison J Parent wrote: >< 4) 'The original' paper tape of BASIC that was pirated from Bill Gates. > >How do you know it was paper tape... MITS basic that was "pirated" was >often supplied on MITS ACR format audio tape. Still have one! At the time, were ASR-33s or cassettes the more common media for exchange? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 7 09:07:48 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Tron, con't In-Reply-To: <361AC370.6776E8B0@cnct.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19981006160348.00d1e100@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981007090748.00ecc910@pc> At 09:27 PM 10/6/98 -0400, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > >An article by (apparently) some of the people involved indicates both >Linux and NT were involved, as well as some SGI hardware. It seems to >be from the middle of a long argument. You're right, it's exactly the kind of long argument that I described in my original message: everybody's fighting over who gets credit for what, what their title was (in a business where people pride themselves on self-generated ridiculous titles for their business cards, or better yet, were never given a particular title because their job was so short-term), who did what, who managed to get the attention of a salivating magazine writer, who believes every word, doesn't fact-check, and happily reprints every word. What the computer press does is truly twisted sometimes. DEC wants to trumpet the fact that Alpha chips "made" Titanic. Red Hat wants everyone to know that Linux was involved, without feeling the need to tell the whole story. Carrera wants credit for making, configuring, and delivering the boxes. The reality is that they use whatever they can use, and it only needs to work for a few months of production, which explains the "too many machines in overheated room" part of the story. They needed WinNT to run the off-the-shelf 3D modeling and rendering programs, they liked Linux so they could compile their custom software and run it on a network. Those boxes did nothing but render and composite for weeks at a time. Digital Domain fired most of those people shortly afterwards - that's life in the computer graphics business. So what does this have to do with classic computers? A relevant lesson to the discussion of who invented what-where, I think. Some say freedom of the press belongs to those who own a press; I say sometimes all you need is a good PR pitch and a gullible reporter. :-) - John From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 7 09:30:36 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <199810070304.AA24363@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > Also if anything any of the guys here that were in the military will > tell you while the F14 CADC or other hardware were at one time advaced > they also tended to stay in service for many years after the commercial > space caught up and passed it! According to research done, there are still 55 F14A's (the model with the Holt CADC) in the fleet that are scheduled to be retrofitted with a more modern computer (whatever that may be). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 7 09:57:22 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: <199810071457.AA15894@world.std.com> < >How do you know it was paper tape... MITS basic that was "pirated" was < >often supplied on MITS ACR format audio tape. Still have one! < < At the time, were ASR-33s or cassettes the more common media for exchang Yes! ASR33 was expensive so many people used terminals or VDM1/parallel port keyboard or other combinations. Also ASR33 was 10 cps and ACR was 300baud... considering the 4k basic was a 8-9 minute load on the tty and about 3 on the ACR it should be obvious tape was a better way to go. Allison From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 7 10:02:28 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <199810071457.AA15894@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981007100228.00ea73e0@pc> At 10:57 AM 10/7/98 -0400, Allison J Parent wrote: >< >< At the time, were ASR-33s or cassettes the more common media for exchang > >Yes! I meant, what was the proportion of each media at the time? Back in the days of my IMSAI experience, we had both an ASR-33 and a cassette interface card. I don't remember the relative costs, though. A cassette interface and deck were less costly than an ASR-33, even at ham radio prices? - John From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Oct 7 10:10:53 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Has there been any discussion about the eventual fate of our collections after we are gone? My wife and I have discussed this at some length. I see three phases to my collection. Phase one: Active procurement (Present state) My collection currently exists in a very unorganized state in my basement. I have no real inventory list. Phase two: Active display Fully inventoried with a list of what works and what doesn't. We've discussed the possiblity of setting up some sort of cybercafe to help pay for maintaining the collection. Phase three: Finding the collection a new home (After I'm gone) This is the tough one. In the wrong hands the collection might just go to a landfill and that would be a real shame. I have no kids so there is no one to carry on the tradition. I shudder to think about the eventual fate of all of our collections. Do we need a national repository for all of this stuff? Thoughts to ponder, George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com From handyman at sprintmail.com Wed Oct 7 10:33:59 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines References: Message-ID: <361B89E7.4475@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> > Phase three: Finding the collection a new home (After I'm gone) > This is the tough one. In the wrong hands the collection might > just go to a landfill and that would be a real shame. I have no kids so > there is no one to carry on the tradition. I shudder to think about the > eventual fate of all of our collections. Do we need a national repository > for all of this stuff? > > Thoughts to ponder, > > George Dear George. I am up for adoption... Please remember me in your will.... !!! Phil... From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Oct 7 10:40:34 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199810071533.IAA16585@mxu2.u.washington.edu> At 08:10 AM 10/7/98 -0700, you wrote: >Phase three: Finding the collection a new home (After I'm gone) > This is the tough one. In the wrong hands the collection might >just go to a landfill and that would be a real shame. I have no kids so >there is no one to carry on the tradition. This is what wills are for, insuring that your stuff is taken care of the way you want it to be taken care of. One way to do this in the US is with a 'living trust.' You create a trust and transfer title of your collection to it, in the trust you and your wife are trustees. Then you specify a successor trustee (say some local technology museum) and then when you are gone the control of the assets moves (without probate!) to the sucessor trustee. In the trust you can limit what the trustee can do with the trust assets, including disposing in landfills. --Chuck From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 7 10:44:56 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, George Rachor wrote: > Has there been any discussion about the eventual fate of our collections > after we are gone? I believe there was a short talk on this a while back. I think its an issue that should be re-visited from time to time. > My wife and I have discussed this at some length. I see three phases to > my collection. > > Phase one: Active procurement (Present state) > My collection currently exists in a very unorganized state in my > basement. I have no real inventory list. Start inventorying! > Phase three: Finding the collection a new home (After I'm gone) > This is the tough one. In the wrong hands the collection might > just go to a landfill and that would be a real shame. I have no kids so > there is no one to carry on the tradition. I shudder to think about the > eventual fate of all of our collections. Do we need a national repository > for all of this stuff? Don't wait until after you're dead to find a succesor, because, after all, you will be dead and this will be impossible. You should work out a will right now that specifies what is to happen to your collection and add it to your regular will. You should find a trustee who will take on your collection and either keep it for the next successor or manage its proper dissemination to other collectors. I think it would be a neat idea to start a registry here on the list of some sorts, where we can all specify who gets what from our collection if we go to the bit bucket in the sky, and formalize this and get it certified or something (whatever legal term applies). My plan isn't on paper yet (and is only half formulated in my mind) but I'm young and don't plan to die anytime soon. However, I have given it some thought, and will be formalizing some sort of will for my collection that will most likely include parts of my collection going to some local collectors (uh oh, I think I can sense hits being put out on me by some of the locals), some going to computer museums, etc. Of course this may all change when I create the non-profit research center I'm planning to. Once that's rolling I will put measures in place to insure that the collection lives on long after I've been deleted from the directory. At the basest level, I see the purpose of a historical collection as two-fold: 1) to occupy and entertain us while we (the collector) are here 2) to leave a legacy for future generations to learn from and enjoy after we've been re-directed to /dev/null (aren't you getting sick of my clever euphemisms?) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From handyman at sprintmail.com Wed Oct 7 10:47:07 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Mono 19inch monitor References: <199810071341.AA17651@world.std.com> Message-ID: <361B8CFB.6403@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> I just was given a 19inch Panasonic Monitor.. It was thought to be a VGA color monitor because of its size and the fact it had a 15 pin (Standard VGA) connector on it.. I later discovered it was a monochrome monitor.. On the back it has 3 BNC connectors labeled: 1. Vertical Sync 2. Horizontal Sync 3. Video To my knowledge this is a TTL monochrome monitor. However I thought that a TTL monitor should also have an Intensity input also.. Will this work if I wire the following pinouts to a hercules DB9 connector.. pin 8 Horizontal sync pin 9 vertical sync pin 7 video pin 1,2 ground Do I need am Intensity output (There is none) for it to work on a standard mono video card.? Phil.... From jsalzman at hersheys.com Wed Oct 7 10:41:51 1998 From: jsalzman at hersheys.com (Salzman, Jeff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines Message-ID: > >there is no one to carry on the tradition. I shudder to think about the >eventual fate of all of our collections. Do we need a national repository >for all of this stuff? How about a collector's organization which can act as a willed beneficiary for collectors. A board of directors can act in the best interest of the collection should a member (or non-member?) die and bequeath(sp?) his/her computer collection to the organization. Some items can be kept for a museum piece while others can bid for a chance to purchase the remaining items. This could fund the organization. The organization can also conduct interviews with bidders to determine if they are serving the best interest of the computer collection if they get the desired item. A clause can be put in to require the item to be retired to the organization upon their death. Some of the funding can also be used to provide insurance coverage to members by people who know the value of what's being insured. Just my thought, and is well open to discussion. Jeff Salzman > From handyman at sprintmail.com Wed Oct 7 11:12:22 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Formatting a Kaypro 10 Hard Drive References: Message-ID: <361B92E6.34F2@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> Just purchased a kaypro 10 Computer. The Hard Drive is Dead.. As I understand it has an MFM type drive.. I have several old drives (ST 225) from old XT's that I could replace the bad one with.. (If possible).. My knowledge is limited on CP/M.. Even more limited with on CP/M on Hard Drives.. Being a computer tech I formatted hundreds of old MFM type drives on XT's but this thing is very different.. I don't know where to start on this project. Can anyone help? Thanks.. Phil.... From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Oct 7 12:07:10 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Last(?) Altair -- Re: Unassembled Altair kits In-Reply-To: <199810062339.QAA02739@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981007120710.2ddf8102@intellistar.net> Seth, Any idea what serial number it is? I wonder if it really is one of the LAST Altairs. Steve Gabaly (sp?) is tracking the serial numbers and he says that so far my altair has the latest number that he's aware of. Speaking of unfinished kits, I also have an unfinished Morton M-5 model airplane radial engine from 1940. Joe At 04:39 PM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Everyone here who's been on the list for a while knows how many >examples of the infamous "last remaining unassembled MITS Altair kit >in existence" there are. Well, I just wanted to let everyone know >that I've found another one, in L.A. -- NO, it's not mine, and it's >not going to BE mine, either. The guy who owns it fully intends to >keep it. He also has an assembled one. > >So, for anyone keeping count, add one more to the list. > >P.S. If I ever get it, I'll trade it for a PDP-8 :) > >-Seth >-- >"The crux of the biscuit Seth J. Morabito > is the apostrophe." - Frank Zappa sethm@loomcom.com > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 7 11:20:18 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > computer. We all know that *all* of the earliest cheap machines were > based on Intel CPUs. This wasn't an accident, and nothing would change Does "we" include anyone outside of "Doug Yowza"? I'd hate to be included in the group of people that would accept this fallacy. What about... ...the KIM-1? (1976, 6502) ...the JOLT? (1975, 6502) ...the COSMAC ELF? (1975) ...the SWTPc 6800? (1975, 6800) If I didn't kill all those brain cells last night I'd be able to come up with many, many more that were NOT Intel-based machines. (You made this one too easy for me.) > this fact if, say, TI engineers had actually produced a microprocessor > before Intel. The important "firsts" in documenting the personal computer > revolution are commercialization, availability, and price. That certainly doesn't tell the whole story. The only thing this type of historical "documentation" serves is a company's marketing efforts. > I'm not denying that Holt produced a CPU, and it may be important in the > history of military computers. It is irrelevant in the history of the > personal computer unless there was a personal computer designed that > included it or a direct descendant. I never argued that it was influential in the narrow realm of the history of the personal computer. I'm arguing that it has significance on its own merits, and also in the fact that if it had been commercialized, it would have advanced the development of subsequent microprocessors by five years (in the estimates of one reviewer, but probably a reasonable assessment). I think what's relevant is that if you took the 4004, the best that Intel could produce at the time (1971) and chained 16 of them together, they still could not even begin to perform at the levels that the CADC had to, and certainly not within the space, power and temperature limitations imposed on the product. The CADC shows that much more was possible than was previously believed for that early era in microprocessor history. That's significant, and relevant. > The HP9830 is a historical footnote. It's more relevant than a military > computer because there is documented evidence of the HP influence on early > Apple machines, and the significance of the Apple machines are clear. > There is also evidence that suggests that HP thought about and discounted > the idea of selling the 9830 to a wider audience. To me, this makes it a I agree with you there. > pretty interesting footnote. If it had been created in a vacuum and Woz > had worked at IBM instead of HP, it would be a lesser footnote, something > like the MCM machine you mentioned. How can you consider the MCM a "lesser footnote" than the 9830, when IBM would have never even produced the 5100 if they didn't view the MCM-70 as a threat to one of their markets? In that regard, and taking into consideration the fact that the 5100 was thought to be the first portable* machine to integrate a display, keyboard and storage device (extremely significant in the history of portables no less), I think the MCM-70 is a far greater footnote than the 9830. * marketed specifically as a portable, unlike the 9830. > I think it's great that Holt got his story out. Footnotes always add > depth, but no chapters need to be rewritten. I don't think chapters need to be re-written either. A whole NEW chapter needs to be added. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Oct 7 11:20:19 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Help In-Reply-To: <199810071342.AA18091@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810071620.LAA22093@trailingedge.com> On 7 Oct 98, at 9:42, Allison J Parent wrote: > Get docs! Your working blind without them. Ok, can anyone help with this? Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 7 11:24:28 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: <19981006230854.19812.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 6 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > Enormous free time? I wish I had that. Before Apple switched to their > current marketing product numbering scheme > > [/] > > their original product numbering was of the form > > A > > where the first digit was the computer model it was related to, and the > letter designated the type of product. For instance, A2Dxxxx was software > on diskette for the Apple ][, A2Mxxxx was a manual for the Apple ][ or related > products, and IIRC the computers themselves were A2Cxxxx. For the Apple /// > products, the first digit was three. For Lisa products, it was 6. For > some cross-platform products it was 9. I don't think this indicates that the Lisa was unofficially the Apple VI. I think its simply the product group Apple deicded to put the Lisa into. I think what happened to A4 and A5 is that Apple probably planned some products that would adopt those group numbers but they never materialized. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 7 11:30:56 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: <199810071630.AA01567@world.std.com> < I meant, what was the proportion of each media at the time? No idea, seems biased to tape where I lived (LI NY). < Back in the days of my IMSAI experience, we had both an ASR-33 and < a cassette interface card. I don't remember the relative costs, < though. A cassette interface and deck were less costly than < an ASR-33, even at ham radio prices? 1975-76 time frame a used ASR33 was 500-900$US. The only machines at the ham meets were BAUDOT with 5level tape (and slower), they ran 75-150$US for a good working one. The ACR and a cassette tape were like 199$US and 35-45$US and faster as well. The third choice was an optical PTreader homebrew or commercial and they required a parallel port (cheap or trivial build) and inexpensive. Punching was again a cost thing and the old teletype BPRE punches were a good find at 100-200$. The point being things we take for granted as cheap or available now (or during the 80s) were less common and expensive in the mid to late 70s. Back in '76 showing up with some kind of terminal storage and more than 4-8k of ram and Basic generally put one in the fortunate class. My altair by late '75 had a home made ascii keyboard attached to a MITS-PIO and a modified (for 64char, 16line) SWTP CT1024 and a MITS 88-ACR and 12k of very flaky (solder plated edge connector rot) 88-S4k ram. I was able to run MITS 4kbasic, 8kbasic and Programming package II. That for its time was a power system. A bit more history... the other systems seen at the time that were pretty neat were the AMI EVK series (6800 SBC with decent amount of ram and rom) and the SWTP 6800. I havent seen either one in years. Both were pretty nice systems and less hardware intensive for the user. It seemed to me at the time that the 6800 camp were doing more software work and the 8080/s100 camp were into hardware. Anyone remember the Viatron systems that were turning up surplus around '75-78 time frame? It used tape and had a multichip LSI cpu. Allison From Marty at itgonline.com Wed Oct 7 11:37:18 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines Message-ID: <1998Oct07.123645.1767.145391@smtp.itgonline.com> I belong to the Mid-Atlantic Antique Radio Club which has established the Radio History Society, a non-profit musuem, which is located at George Washington University in Washington, D.C. The Radio History Society http://www.radiohistory.org/ is an IRS 501(c)(3) organization which can provide donors with a tax deduction. A single friend of mine has decided that he will donate much of his collection to RHS when he passes on as nobody in his family is interested in old radio. Anyway, I'd imagine CHAC and other organizations can offer help in directing people to good homes for their gear. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Eventual fate of our machines Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/7/98 11:09 AM Has there been any discussion about the eventual fate of our collections after we are gone? My wife and I have discussed this at some length. I see three phases to my collection. Phase one: Active procurement (Present state) My collection currently exists in a very unorganized state in my basement. I have no real inventory list. Phase two: Active display Fully inventoried with a list of what works and what doesn't. We've discussed the possiblity of setting up some sort of cybercafe to help pay for maintaining the collection. Phase three: Finding the collection a new home (After I'm gone) This is the tough one. In the wrong hands the collection might just go to a landfill and that would be a real shame. I have no kids so there is no one to carry on the tradition. I shudder to think about the eventual fate of all of our collections. Do we need a national repository for all of this stuff? Thoughts to ponder, George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct07.110957.1767.68258; Wed, 07 Oct 1998 11:10:00 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id IAA02277; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:07:26 -0700 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id IAA36360 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:07:17 -0700 Received: from racsys.rt.rain.com (racsys.rt.rain.com [199.2.210.34]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id IAA12 828 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:07:15 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost.rdrop.com [127.0.0.1]) by racsys.rt.rain.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24650 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:10:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from george@racsys.rt.rain.com) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: George Rachor To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Eventual fate of our machines In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From wanderer at bos.nl Wed Oct 7 13:41:47 1998 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Latets finds Message-ID: <361BB5EB.150E@bos.nl> Hey All, Got this weekend an Intel 8085 System Design Kit (in original box) with manuals and a Dec vt62. It looks like the vt62 could be equipped with an additional printer unit. Is this correct? Regards, Ed From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Oct 7 11:42:38 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: That's good, the Sphere works better unassembled :) Kai -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli [mailto:william@ans.net] My unbuilt Sphere-1 is getting donated to RCS/RI, with the understanding that the boards will never see an iron. From franke at sbs.de Wed Oct 7 13:10:54 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines Message-ID: <199810071652.SAA19644@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Phase one: Active procurement (Present state) > My collection currently exists in a very unorganized state in my > basement. I have no real inventory list. :) > Phase two: Active display > Fully inventoried with a list of what works and what doesn't. > We've discussed the possiblity of setting up some sort of cybercafe to > help pay for maintaining the collection. Good idea - I have to mark your place for my next visit. Surfing on an Altair ... > Phase three: Finding the collection a new home (After I'm gone) > This is the tough one. In the wrong hands the collection might > just go to a landfill and that would be a real shame. I have no kids so > there is no one to carry on the tradition. I shudder to think about the > eventual fate of all of our collections. Do we need a national repository > for all of this stuff? National Repository ? Like a landfill at Mt. Rushmore ? Serious: I think it's a) mor than just a 'national' issue, and b) giving your legacy to any kind of 'big' museum / collection wouldn't be better than auctioning every single piece for maximum profit (for the heir). Let me explane the last one. At first, a 'big' collection, like a museum (and I just assume there will be in the future some computer museums at least the size of car collections) will have already more than 95% of your (or mine) collection, counting the CPU's, so they only need 5% for display. The rest will be surplus or spare parts in best case. Second, they will have, for shure, already more computers and accessories than they are able to display. So yours might never be seen again autside the warehouse. Third, (and most important in my eyes) 99% of all of the hard to get software and documentation will never go on display And last but not least, even if one of your computers get on display, they might refurbisch in a way you would never liked - removing stickers, that you saved as a sign of Zeitgeist of this machine, or even canibalise it for display. For example: The Deutsches Museum in Munich has a quite astonishing collection of old machinery on display, but compared to what they have in storeage, it's like showing a Apple Mac Plus as a representiv for everything Apple produced - from Apple 1 until Newton ... - Even for old Computers: they have a quite impressive collection of uP based Computers, but just an PET and an IBM-PC on display (within more than 5000 sq ft computer display). (To be honest, every of the things above can happen also with smaler collectors, but I think they are more likely for big collections/mueseum.) Personal I have not decided what to do with my collection (althrugh I alredy have a last will where several persons are picked to get some parts or to be responsible for the distribution). Possible ways where I feel comfortable are: a) Let 'em all on auction after my death for maximum money. b) Pick people for every parst to inherit to. c) sell them among fellow collectors for their real value. That means for example 100 USD for a C65 or a chicklet PET. d) If I ever will archive my own museum, building a base, where inheritance is no question, because it exists on it's own behalf. The idea behind b) and c) is just to give them to people who don't want them pure for the market (ePay) value, but for the thing itself. c) has an advantage, because I belive buying is better than getting a gift. In fact, if I haggle for an Apple 1 at 100 USD it's more fun than getting the computer for free (dont get me wrong - I wouldn't deny any free computer :). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ddameron at earthlink.net Wed Oct 7 11:59:50 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810071659.JAA29379@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Hi All, At 07:52 AM 10/6/98 -0400, Allison wrote: >No Intel never made a cheap computer. They made CPUs, Memory and support >chips. The MCS. MDS, intellect even the SDKs were anything but cheap. > >< enabled them to make it cheap, and they commercialized it. The level o >< integration is the salient feature of the chip, but not the main featur >< of the important event. > >It's everything as the 8008 hit the level of integration needed to produce >a viable general purpose commercial cpu. > >For example why is it that prople are hunting for MARK-8 and Kenbec's >when the most likely find (greatest quantity) for 8008 machines is a >MCS-8 from intel?!?! > Yes, I would like to find a "Intellec 8", I think the same as a MCS-8, too. (Intel seems to use the term "MCS-8" very loosely in the literature I have.) There was also a single board computer, Sim8-01 with 2k bytes EPROM and 1k byte ram. It could be used with a MP7 EPROM (1702A) programmer. Another company was Martin research which made "Mike" series computers. Haven't found any of these either, but did find by inter-library loan their "Microcomputer Design" book, which has lots of 8008 info! It has a schematic of their "Mike 4" system, an 8008 based unit with about 20 ic's. It also included other minimal 8008 systems such as a 9 chip version. I have found a source for 8008 chips, so maybe a homebrew 8008 system is more likely as a future project. -Dave From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Oct 7 12:02:01 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines In-Reply-To: <199810071533.IAA16585@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <13393909444.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [What happens to our collections when we die?] What? Me? Die? You're nuts. I'm immortal. [Seriously, now...] Well, I'd planned to try living until Crystal Tokyo time, and then I'll just turn my collection over to Ami-chan, and she'll keep them safe for me. WMK folks can live for centuries, and by that time the machines will have deteriorated to dust. [What? Me? Serious? You're nuts. I'm 19.] [Can anyone STR? (It's *REALLY* Obvious...)] ------- From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Oct 7 12:20:12 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Vaporware (and not) from '83 CES Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981007002111.56efcd34@ricochet.net> At 05:07 PM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote: >Vaporware? Please respond if you KNOW any of these exist for SURE. > >- STM Pied Piper (CP/M portable, 64K, $1295) I seem to remember this actually coming out, but I can't verify it. >- TI CC-40 (Compact Computer 40, laptop like Epson HX-20, 4 AA cells, 31 >character LCD display, $249) Got one. One just sold on Ebay for something like $150 or so. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Oct 7 12:20:47 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Formatting a Kaypro 10 Hard Drive Message-ID: You need the Kaypro 10 CP/M 2.2G Reload Disk Set (14 disks), which you can get from Don Maslin, keeper of the CP/M disk archives (donm@cts.com), for $3/first disk and $1/additional. The man's a saint. The 10 will work with up to 8 heads and, I believe, 306 cylinders. A Kaypro 10 manual would be helpful too, I got mine from my local Kaypro users group (yes, they still exist, all four guys of them). Some other stuff is available from The Computer Journal (http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/kaypro.html) Kai -----Original Message----- From: Phil Clayton [mailto:handyman@sprintmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 9:12 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Formatting a Kaypro 10 Hard Drive Just purchased a kaypro 10 Computer. The Hard Drive is Dead.. As I understand it has an MFM type drive.. I have several old drives (ST 225) from old XT's that I could replace the bad one with.. (If possible).. My knowledge is limited on CP/M.. Even more limited with on CP/M on Hard Drives.. Being a computer tech I formatted hundreds of old MFM type drives on XT's but this thing is very different.. I don't know where to start on this project. Can anyone help? Thanks.. Phil.... From franke at sbs.de Wed Oct 7 13:37:14 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines Message-ID: <199810071718.TAA08170@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>there is no one to carry on the tradition. I shudder to think about the >>eventual fate of all of our collections. Do we need a national repository >>for all of this stuff? > How about a collector's organization which can act as a willed > beneficiary for collectors. A board of directors can act in the best > interest of the collection should a member (or non-member?) die and > bequeath(sp?) his/her computer collection to the organization. Some > items can be kept for a museum piece while others can bid for a chance > to purchase the remaining items. This could fund the organization. The > organization can also conduct interviews with bidders to determine if > they are serving the best interest of the computer collection if they > get the desired item. A clause can be put in to require the item to be > retired to the organization upon their death. Kind of a life time rental agreement ? Sounds interesting. This might be a good idea. But won't the mony winn over the idea ? Altrough I belive, that certain organisations, like government, unions, etc. are neccersary, I dislike most organisations, since every one of them tends soon to put the organisation itself on top of the mission. The organisation becomes the mission instead of serving it. This is especialy true for (so called) privat (NGO) organisations without true public control. The process is called professionalisation. Enthusiasm fades, and business is the rule. Maybe I'm a bit negative, but I have no trust in any fixed long time perspective organisation supposed to do 'fun' (non comercila, ethusiast) things (So, Sam, if there is a planned membership for VCF, I'm out :). But, if we could keep it to a small and more individual to individual base, I'm in. > Some of the funding can also be used to provide insurance coverage to > members by people who know the value of what's being insured. Thats a very dangerous terrain. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Oct 7 12:36:38 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 HD woes Message-ID: One of my Kaypro 10s has a bad case of the dreaded 'Spindle Stiction', ie. it won't spin up on it's own. I have learned to smack it in just the right place, to produce a radial moment normal to the plane of rotation, and then it spins up and boots. The first time I did this, I backed up the drive to floppies, so if the drive dies for good, no big deal. Allison, I believe, was the person who discussed this fairly common problem, some months ago. And since starting a drive with the handle of a big screwdriver can only be termed *abuse*, it's amazing that the poor thing works at all. But try this, in case there is something wonderful living on the HD, before you format it. (If in fact the no-boot is caused by stiction....) Cheers John From franke at sbs.de Wed Oct 7 13:56:19 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:11 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines Message-ID: <199810071737.TAA08247@marina.fth.sbs.de> > The Radio History Society http://www.radiohistory.org/ is an IRS > 501(c)(3) organization which can provide donors with a tax deduction. > A single friend of mine has decided that he will donate much of his > collection to RHS when he passes on as nobody in his family is > interested in old radio. > Anyway, I'd imagine CHAC and other organizations can offer help in > directing people to good homes for their gear. I don't think it's just about the givin'way thing. There are dozens of organisations out there were a computer collection wouldn't be rejected, it's about doing something where one could have at least a strong belive that they will act realy in favour for the collection items, and see them at leas a bit the way we see our'babys' - as something special. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jsalzman at hersheys.com Wed Oct 7 12:46:14 1998 From: jsalzman at hersheys.com (Salzman, Jeff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines Message-ID: > >Kind of a life time rental agreement ? >Sounds interesting. This might be a good idea. >But won't the mony winn over the idea ? There's always that issue. I find it analogous to retirement homes in this area. People 'buy' a retirment home, townhouse, apartment, etc. for a fixed price and then live there. When they die, it belongs to the retirement home to sell again. The cycle continues. If you've seen some of the homes around here, you know they've been around for a while. Part of the charge funds maintenance fees and lawn care (the latter not being important for computers). The continuous re-renting of the property helps keep the available funds around to maintain everything. I'm not saying that the 'organization' fund for maintenance to whoever rented the computer, but the concept is similar. The end goal in this case is to do what's possible to keep it around for the next person. >But, if we could keep it to a small and more individual to >individual base, I'm in. Do I hear charters? > >> Some of the funding can also be used to provide insurance coverage to >> members by people who know the value of what's being insured. > >Thats a very dangerous terrain. I do agree with you. Here, in the state of Pennsylvania, insurance of any type is heavily regulated. It may not be as bad for other states or countries. > > From ss at allegro.com Wed Oct 7 12:47:39 1998 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Re: What happens to our collections "After I'm gone". One word: will It's vital for a computer collector to have a will (no jokes based on misinterpreting the word, please...they're obvious and not needed). Heck...every adult should have a will, even if they don't collect computers. I recently bought a copy of Willmaker 6 (cheap, at Weirdstuff Warehouse), and recommend it. Don't put it off! Oh yes, Sam...no you're not in my will, so don't even think about "helping" me out :) sieler@allegro.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Oct 7 09:49:36 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Unknown Apple II Card In-Reply-To: <199810062238.RAA19072@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <199810071852.OAA03975@smtp.interlog.com> On 6 Oct 98 at 18:43, David Williams wrote: > I have an unknown interface card for the Apple ][. At least I think it > is for a II. It has a 50 pin connector down the front of the card. > > "REV E" and "SCI Typ. 1A" dated "Jan 24 '85" printed on the card. > An EPROM with > > 8443EPP > AM2732ADC > Copyright 1983 AMD > > printed on it. That's all I can find printed on the card. Any ideas? > For those who can handle images, there are a couple at: > > http://www.trailingedge.com/~dlw/comp/images/acard1.jpg > http://www.trailingedge.com/~dlw/comp/images/acard2.jpg > > Not the best pictures but I have the camera here right now and may > take some closeups of the board and chips. > > Thanks. > > > ----- > David Williams - Computer Packrat > dlw@trailingedge.com > http://www.trailingedge.com > Wow, glad I checked out your page. Ward Griffiths is the only other person on the list that I know has a TRS80 m.2 . I searched high and low for web pages on my model 2 to little avail and here you even have 3 links. Thank you, thank you. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 7 14:05:30 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > > computer. We all know that *all* of the earliest cheap machines were > > based on Intel CPUs. This wasn't an accident, and nothing would change [...] > What about... > ...the KIM-1? (1976, 6502) > ...the JOLT? (1975, 6502) > ...the COSMAC ELF? (1975) > ...the SWTPc 6800? (1975, 6800 Now you're just being disingenuous. Why stop there, keep going and include the DEC Alpha in your extended definition of earliest. None of these machines were in the first wave of cheap computers. These all folowed the Altair, which started the second wave in 1975 using a thrid generation Intel microprocessor, the 8080. > That certainly doesn't tell the whole story. The only thing this type of > historical "documentation" serves is a company's marketing efforts. If you extend "marketing" to mean product definition, foundry capability, price structure, excellent documentation (by trivia-inspiring Adam Osborne, no less), support chip availability, reference platform availability, training, etc., then you're getting closer to the truth. Intel made a concerted effort to make microcomputers happen. Others followed. If somebody else did *that* first, it would be very interesting to know about. > I never argued that it was influential in the narrow realm of the history > of the personal computer. I'm arguing that it has significance on its own > merits, and also in the fact that if it had been commercialized, it would > have advanced the development of subsequent microprocessors by five years > (in the estimates of one reviewer, but probably a reasonable assessment). By comparing it to the Intel 4004, and trying specifically to displace the 4004 from its position of "glory" as the first microprocessor, and complaining that microprocessor history is simply corporate marketing and press releases, you sure seem to be doing more than simply promoting the F14 chip(s) on their own merit. > I think what's relevant is that if you took the 4004, the best that Intel > could produce at the time (1971) and chained 16 of them together, they > still could not even begin to perform at the levels that the CADC had to, > and certainly not within the space, power and temperature limitations > imposed on the product. The CADC shows that much more was possible than > was previously believed for that early era in microprocessor history. > That's significant, and relevant. You're comparing apples to oranges. The products had vastly different requirements, vastly different applications, and shouldn't be directly compared. It's like trying to diminish the work of Henry Ford because somebody built an airplane that was faster than the Model T six months prior -- it's a non sequitur. Now, if you have evidence of Holt's design or implementation or manufacturing techniques or even evangelical skills having impact on the industry we all know and love, that would be good stuff for history of the microcomputer. If you're simply saying that he produced a cool computer for the Air Force and it allowed planes to fly cheaper faster and better, then that's cool too, but it's not how you're framing this as I see it. I don't have trouble with his accomplishments, I have trouble with your spin. (Although it was a brilliant publicity vehicle for VCF, and you should be applauded for that, and perhaps offered a position in the White House.) -- Doug From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Oct 7 14:10:04 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Unknown Apple II Card In-Reply-To: <199810071852.OAA03975@smtp.interlog.com> References: <199810062238.RAA19072@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <199810071910.OAA22788@trailingedge.com> On 7 Oct 98, at 14:49, Lawrence Walker wrote: > Wow, glad I checked out your page. Ward Griffiths is the only other > person on > the list that I know has a TRS80 m.2 . I searched high and low for web > pages on my model 2 to little avail and here you even have 3 links. > Thank you, thank you. Well, I'm glad you're happy, I'm trying to get as many useful links as I can and keep finding new ones. I'd like to place some other stuff besides links here too. I have this whole thing to myself and lots of ftp space and stuff. Just don't know what to place out there yet. One thing confuses me though, to what 3 links do you refer? I have three links on my Coco pages and 2 links on my Model 1/3/4 pages but only one link on my Model 2 page, which is in the wanted computer section since I don't have one yet. :-( I want to add a Tandy section to the top level of the domain along with all the other systems but work is keeping me from it for now. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 7 14:08:19 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:24:28 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981007190819.24707.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sam wrote: > I don't think this indicates that the Lisa was unofficially the Apple VI. > I think its simply the product group Apple deicded to put the Lisa into. It certainly didn't officially have the name 'Apple VI' (or Apple 6), but it is obvious that marketing viewed it that way, since they were responsible for assigning the product codes. The engineers may not have, but so what? In a company the size of Apple (even in 1982/83), engineers rarely get any say in the names of products. The Lisa is actually a rare example of the engineering name being adopted by marketing. Anyhow, this is about a zillion percent more evidence for someone (but not necessarily everyone) in Apple considering it to be an Apple VI than there is for it ever having been considered an Apple IV. From oajones at bright.net Wed Oct 7 14:33:17 1998 From: oajones at bright.net (oajones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Latets finds References: <361BB5EB.150E@bos.nl> Message-ID: <361BC1FD.62BC@bright.net> wanderer wrote: > > Hey All, > > Got this weekend an Intel 8085 System Design Kit (in original box) > with manuals and a Dec vt62. > > It looks like the vt62 could be equipped with an additional printer > unit. Is this correct? > > Regards, > > Ed Hi Ed, What year is the board made and do you have a picture of it? --Alan -- Computing since: 1982, VIC-20, CoCo, PC, CP/M Military Computers: COMTRAN 10, Nida 250 Amateur Radio since: 1971, WN8JEF, KA6EXR, N8BGR, AA4ZI BASIC, dBASE, Assembly, C++ mailto: oajones@bright.net From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 7 14:59:53 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810071959.AA12929@world.std.com> < What about... < ...the KIM-1? (1976, 6502) < ...the JOLT? (1975, 6502) < ...the COSMAC ELF? (1975) < ...the SWTPc 6800? (1975, 6800) The cosmac elf was the august 1976 cover of Popular Electronics. The key here was the 8080 predates the Altair by over a year but within 1 year of the 8080 introduction there would be a slew of new CPUs many lower cost. The 6502 was the knee breaker! After that there would be the COSMAC-1802, SC/MP, and a truckload of others. < > this fact if, say, TI engineers had actually produced a microprocesso < > before Intel. The important "firsts" in documenting the personal comp < > revolution are commercialization, availability, and price. < < That certainly doesn't tell the whole story. The only thing this type o < historical "documentation" serves is a company's marketing efforts. They did in essence, TI brought us the calculator chip before intel with the 4004. The difference that is significant is the same number of gates were applied as a generalized programable system... That was important. The however is that TI1000 was the same time nearly. < imposed on the product. The CADC shows that much more was possible tha < was previously believed for that early era in microprocessor history. < That's significant, and relevant. The CADC also attacked the specialized vs programmable before intel. < I don't think chapters need to be re-written either. A whole NEW chapte < needs to be added. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 7 14:59:46 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810071959.AA12821@world.std.com> < Yes, I would like to find a "Intellec 8", I think the same as a MCS-8, t < (Intel seems to use the term "MCS-8" very loosely in the literature I ha < There was also a single board computer, Sim8-01 with 2k bytes EPROM and < byte ram. It could be used with a MP7 EPROM (1702A) programmer. MCS-8 is the SIM8-01, I still have the manual for it. Allison From wanderer at bos.nl Wed Oct 7 17:13:22 1998 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Latest finds Message-ID: <361BE782.6F93@bos.nl> Well, let's see. I got the kit for 50 guilders ($25), which is not a bad price if you ask me for such a near complete kit. As for the moment, I don't have a picture yet, but I could scan a picture from one of the manuals. Unfortunately it's not fore sale, but if someone want's to exchange it for a KIM-1, I could be tempted, or somewone would like to pay me mega $$$$ (maybe someone at eBay :-) ) Some more info about the board, it's labelled PWB 10010505 Rev C and has a copyright of 1976. The manuals have various dates, they are : Product Description book, dated January 1979, Assambly Language Reference Card, dated March 1979, MCS-80/85 Family User's Manual, dated October 1979, 8080/8085 Assembly Language Programming Manual dated 1977,1978, 197 SDK-85 System Design Kit User's Manual, dated 1978 Regards, Ed BTW, the guy who sold this also had 3 handheld terminals sets which doe work on CP/M. He also had 3 matching printers, 2 software development kits for the PC (has a Z80 processor on an ISA board), and 1 docking station. Apparently these sets were used f.e. as barcode readers, as the terminal could be equipped with a optical pen. -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | zakkenvullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 7 15:56:00 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines Message-ID: <981007165600.20a00303@trailing-edge.com> >Has there been any discussion about the eventual fate of our collections >after we are gone? Well, some supersymmetric (SUSY) theories of grand unification predict that protons will eventually decay. Current experiments put the mean life of the proton at well over 10^40 years, so I'm not too worried myself. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 7 12:42:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <981006215243.20a00182@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 6, 98 09:52:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981007/585772b7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 7 12:43:58 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Oct 6, 98 09:12:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 344 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981007/275c30b3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 7 12:54:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <361ADC63.72E3D21B@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Oct 6, 98 11:13:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1751 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981007/c88a00c6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 7 13:55:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 (was Re: Convergent Technologies workSlate) In-Reply-To: <361AE99C.8FF1E58@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Oct 7, 98 00:10:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 427 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981007/9f69c1c5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 7 13:40:21 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 6, 98 11:26:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1086 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981007/e2265815/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 7 14:10:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines In-Reply-To: from "George Rachor" at Oct 7, 98 08:10:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2325 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981007/2e73d5c4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 7 14:15:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Mono 19inch monitor In-Reply-To: <361B8CFB.6403@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> from "Phil Clayton" at Oct 7, 98 11:47:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1575 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981007/112b18ae/attachment.ksh From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Oct 7 16:55:02 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... Message-ID: <199810072155.RAA23003@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Hey, several threads just coalesced in my head. (Ouch!) There are a handful of questions that keep getting re-hashed. Build my SwTPC kit and play with it, or treasure it in pristine form? Is my LSI-11 a micro, or not? Are my XT's really classic? Should I hack my Apple-1 to sub in a 99 GHz Pentium for the 6502? Wanna buy a 1200 baud modem? The problem is that we have so many different backgrounds and goals, everybody has different answers to those. So, when these questions come up, maybe instead of arguing about the right answers, we could gain more by digging backwards to the *reasons* for the different answers. Here are my two cents: Most of my stupid sample questions revolve around differing valuations. Sources of value. 1. Nostalgia I had/wanted one of these once. 2. Education This is really different from stuff I already know. 3. Preservationism There are only three left on the entire planet. If I don't protect it, soon there won't be any. 4. Usability I make practical use of it. 5. Money There are only three left on the entire planet. Somebody must be willing to pay a lot for it. .. any more? So building a Heathkit is good for reasons 1, 2, and 4; and bad on 3 and 5. In my own collection, different items hit different buttons. I play games on my Radio Shack Color Computers, so they hit button 4. I also hack around in machine code on them, so they hit button 2. And I've done quite a bit of work with 6809's, so they hit button 1 as well. (No wonder I have such a pile of CoCos!) My SwTPC kit is still unbuilt for reason 3. It doesn't hit buttons 1 or 2 so hard because I also have an assembled one which covers those nicely. (Man, I'm a lucky guy!) And it seems my own button 5 isn't connected to anything. But other peoples' seem to work just fine. The one sample question still unanswered is a definition thing. So maybe the root question should be, why is one definition better than another? I learned the definition of microprocessor to be a single-chip CPU, and a microcomputer to be a computer based on a microprocessor. But I never questioned it. Why is that a useful definition? Maybe it is a measure of how hard it would be to build a system around it. Which in turn could be correlated with cost, and so with popularity. By that reasoning, if you get the same functionality out of a smallish chip-set as a single chip, and the price is the same, both should be considered as micros. Or maybe it has more to do with physical size of the end result; if you have a single chip instead of four, it leaves you with more room to put the rest of the computer on that same PC board. Maybe that could be really important for hobbyists. (I know my own attempts at homebrewing were all SBC's.) But there is a red herring in all this. External VLSI support chips are a convenience. You could have built an 8080 system without the 8228. You would just use a boatload of TTL instead. So again, the issue is probably just cost of doing so (money, time, space). Was the 8080 more expensive in any way because of the 8228's existance? No. Was it any less of a microcomputer? Either the 8228 was enough of an improvement over the boatload of TTL that it made 8080 systems doable (ie, made it a micro), or maybe the lack of the 8228 circuitry in the 8080 chip itself still made it impractical for some (ie, made it a non-micro). It depends on where your thresholds are. You can still argue about whether or not the 8080 without an 8228 is a complete CPU, but my point is that this may not be worth arguing. What is the practical impact of having the entire CPU on one chip vs. two? How does it change anyone's behaviour? *That* could be worth some discussion. I have my own ideas about which things are micros and which are not, but in retrospect, the definition that I was taught is not a useful one; it does not classify things into categories that I can use to any benefit. Cheers, Bill. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Oct 7 17:07:31 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... In-Reply-To: <199810072155.RAA23003@dgs.cs.unc.edu> from "Bill Yakowenko" at Oct 7, 98 05:55:02 pm Message-ID: <199810072207.PAA13144@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 532 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981007/3411ed18/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 7 17:11:49 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines In-Reply-To: <199810071652.SAA19644@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > Serious: I think it's a) mor than just a 'national' issue, > and b) giving your legacy to any kind of 'big' museum / collection > wouldn't be better than auctioning every single piece for > maximum profit (for the heir). The main problem I see with bequeathing your entire collection to a museum en masse is that the museum would not necessarily want everything in your collection (how many VIC-20s could they want?) or would not be able to handle it. That's why my plan is to name some local collectors as beneficiaries, so that machines that they could individually appreciate would go to them. Of course, creating a foundation to entrust the entire collection to is preferable. Getting it properly and perpetually funded after I've been purged from the cache is the challenge. I see that had I read further, Hans addressed this issue. > At first, a 'big' collection, like a museum (and I just > assume there will be in the future some computer museums > at least the size of car collections) will have already > more than 95% of your (or mine) collection, counting the > CPU's, so they only need 5% for display. The rest will be > surplus or spare parts in best case. > Second, they will have, for shure, already more computers > and accessories than they are able to display. So yours > might never be seen again autside the warehouse. > Third, (and most important in my eyes) 99% of all of the > hard to get software and documentation will never go on > display But at least it will be preserved for future research, which is important. > Personal I have not decided what to do with my collection > (althrugh I alredy have a last will where several persons > are picked to get some parts or to be responsible for the > distribution). You mean you don't remember signing them over to me when you were visiting? Alcohol does that to a brain. (You'd better check your wallet too.) > c) sell them among fellow collectors for their real > value. That means for example 100 USD for a C65 > or a chicklet PET. Are we talking eBay dollars or swap meet dollars? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Oct 7 17:17:33 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... Message-ID: Little-known fact: The Apple 1 wasn't a 6502 machine... it was a 6502 OR 6800 machine. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:ckaiser@oa.ptloma.edu] Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 3:08 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: kits, definitions, prices... :: Should I hack my Apple-1 to sub in a 99 GHz Pentium for the 6502? Wash your mouth out with soap! (How about a 65816? :-) -- -------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database Programmer Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 -- Never blame on malice what can be blamed on abject idiocy. ----------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 7 17:17:53 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: The PDP lives! To the best of my (limited) knowledge, anyway... Message-ID: <199810072217.AA27455@world.std.com> < Is there a user group or something akin that I could contact to purchas < RT-11 on 8" floppy? When I flip the "boot" switch, it accesses drive "0 < so I assume it's looking for the OS. The @ is the ODT prompt. If you type a / that prints the contents of the current address and if you enter a number it will replace it. @$n (n=0 to 7) prints a regiters contents and can alter it. @1773000G Start executing at 773000 (octal!) That address is commonly the address of rom bootstraps. RT-11 is available on the net at... ftp://gatekeeper.dec.com/pub/digital/sim/software/rtv53swre.tar.Z That is a unix gziped tar file of RT-11 V5.3. If you find it on media you are permitted to use it as a hobbiest. Allison From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 7 17:23:53 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... In-Reply-To: <199810072155.RAA23003@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Sources of value. > 1. Nostalgia > I had/wanted one of these once. I've always considered these two different motivations: 1a) Nostalgia -- I had one and miss it. 1b) Revenge -- I wanted one, and now I can afford it. > I learned the definition of microprocessor to be a single-chip CPU, and > a microcomputer to be a computer based on a microprocessor. But I never > questioned it. Why is that a useful definition? [...] > I have my own ideas about which things are micros and which are not, but > in retrospect, the definition that I was taught is not a useful one; it > does not classify things into categories that I can use to any benefit. Exactly. Naming things is just a way to classify them, to separate one kind of thing from another. So, the first time a term like "microprocessor" is coined is due to necessity -- a new thing came into being and it needed a name. Applying that name to things that follow is a convienient way to establish a relationship to the original thing. As far as I know, the name "microprocessor" was first given to Intel's 4004. It was just shorthand for "this new thing that has a high level of logic integration that gives you a bunch of stuff needed to build a general purpose computer." Calling anything else a microprocessor, to me, is just a way of saying it's a CPU that is in the same class as the Intel 4004: general purpose, highly integrated, commercially available, etc. If somebody made a two-chip CPU that had all of the other characteristics of the Intel 4004, you'd have trouble calling it a microprocessor, because it would be missing something. Maybe you'd call it a two-chip microprocessor. If it were special purpose instead of general purpose, maybe you'd call it a special purpose microprocessor. But once you make something different enough from the 4004 that you need to add a bunch of qualifiers, you might as well just call it a CPU or come up with a new name. -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 7 17:26:30 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Little-known fact: The Apple 1 wasn't a 6502 machine... it was a 6502 OR > 6800 machine. That is *very* little-known! Either somebody got sold a 6800 machine with an Apple 1 label on it or there needs to be some documentation for this claim! References? -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 7 17:10:29 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Latets finds In-Reply-To: <361BC1FD.62BC@bright.net> from "oajones" at Oct 7, 98 03:33:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 627 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981007/9204e059/attachment.ksh From rax at warbaby.com Wed Oct 7 18:50:00 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Atari returns from the grave Message-ID: http://www.milan-computer.de/html_gb/produkt.html -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Oct 7 17:42:37 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Apple 1 6800/6502 (RE: kits, definitions, prices...) Message-ID: It's pretty clear if you look at the board. Note 7 in the Processor Section Schematic elaborates thus: "7. Unit, as supplied, includes a 6502 microprocessor, and solder jumpers at both points marked '6502', and has omitted all components shown within the dotted box. If a 6800 is substituted for the 6502 it is necessary to install all components shown, and to break both solder bridges labeled '6502'." The "dotted box" refers to a normally unpopulated area of the board. The components shown within the "dotted box" are just 4 transistors and a handful of resistors and caps. Remember that the 6502 was largely an electrical clone of the 6800 with a different instruction set. Obviously the supplied monitor ROMs wouldn't have run on the 6800, but the monitor source is supplied and could be translated. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 3:27 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: RE: kits, definitions, prices... On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Little-known fact: The Apple 1 wasn't a 6502 machine... it was a 6502 OR > 6800 machine. That is *very* little-known! Either somebody got sold a 6800 machine with an Apple 1 label on it or there needs to be some documentation for this claim! References? -- Doug From jason at xio.com Wed Oct 7 17:48:13 1998 From: jason at xio.com (Jason Simpson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Atari returns from the grave References: Message-ID: <361BEFAD.63296799@xio.com> Rax wrote: > > http://www.milan-computer.de/html_gb/produkt.html Wow. That site got hacked quick. They were just mentioned yesterday on Slashdot. -jrs From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 7 17:27:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Gemini Galaxy 2 - It works Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2166 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981007/75fea741/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 7 17:45:43 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... In-Reply-To: <199810072155.RAA23003@dgs.cs.unc.edu> from "Bill Yakowenko" at Oct 7, 98 05:55:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3410 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981007/6f3c7ef8/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Oct 7 18:03:28 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Atari returns from the grave In-Reply-To: from "Rax" at Oct 7, 98 03:50:00 pm Message-ID: <199810072303.QAA13302@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 547 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981007/8b7aadf3/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 7 18:10:44 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... Message-ID: <199810072310.AA05358@world.std.com> < > Little-known fact: The Apple 1 wasn't a 6502 machine... it was a 6502 < > 6800 machine. < < That is *very* little-known! Either somebody got sold a 6800 machine wi < an Apple 1 label on it or there needs to be some documentation for this < claim! References? Not a big secret. It's a fact and there is a jumper on the board for it. REASON: At one point MOS Tech was going to make a 6500 that was pin interchangable with the 6800 but moto took them to court. the expectation was they would make one board that could be either 6800 or 6500. Allison From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 7 18:15:32 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Apple 1 6800/6502 (RE: kits, definitions, prices...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > The "dotted box" refers to a normally unpopulated area of the board. The > components shown within the "dotted box" are just 4 transistors and a > handful of resistors and caps. Remember that the 6502 was largely an > electrical clone of the 6800 with a different instruction set. Obviously > the supplied monitor ROMs wouldn't have run on the 6800, but the monitor > source is supplied and could be translated. Interesting, but did Apple ever ship it configured as a 6800 machine? They always shipped with a 6502, right? BTW, if you can find the book "So Far" it shows some of the cool cases that were made for the Apple 1 and mentions the Byte Shop deal in which the Byte Shop offered to buy the first 50 and make "proper" cases for it. -- Doug From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Oct 7 18:24:50 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The docs I saw on an Apple 1 Woz outbid me on a couple of years ago did have references to the 6800. I can't be positive but I think the board itself had references to the 6800 processor. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > Little-known fact: The Apple 1 wasn't a 6502 machine... it was a 6502 OR > > 6800 machine. > > That is *very* little-known! Either somebody got sold a 6800 machine with > an Apple 1 label on it or there needs to be some documentation for this > claim! References? > > -- Doug > > From kozmik at wave.home.com Wed Oct 7 18:22:33 1998 From: kozmik at wave.home.com (Dominique Cormann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Atari returns from the grave In-Reply-To: <199810072303.QAA13302@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <199810072303.QAA13302@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <361BF7B9A5.ACBFKOZMIK@mail.glph1.on.wave.home.com> On Wed, 7 Oct 1998 16:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::http://www.milan-computer.de/html_gb/produkt.html > > File Not Found > > The requested URL /html_gb/produkt.html was not found on this server. > Goto the main page Http://www.milan-computer.de Ouch, that doesn't look like it was a few days ago... J U S T -R E M E M B E R- W H E N- Y O U- T H I N K -Y O U ` R E- F R E E - T H E- C R A C K- I N S I D E -Y O U R- F U C K I N G- H E A R T - I S - M E -- ============================================================--------- Dominique Cormann Email:kozmik@wave.home.com dcormann@uoguelph.ca Homepage:kozmik.dyn.ml.org From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 7 18:40:53 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Heathkit H8 vs. H-89 In-Reply-To: <199810072303.QAA13302@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: Does anybody know if the H8 and H-89 were software compatible? I know CP/M was available for the H-89 (as well as HDOS), but I've only heard rumors of an H-8 CP/M -- maybe they're the same? -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 7 19:22:36 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > ...the KIM-1? (1976, 6502) > > ...the JOLT? (1975, 6502) > > ...the COSMAC ELF? (1975) > > ...the SWTPc 6800? (1975, 6800 > > Now you're just being disingenuous. Why stop there, keep going and > include the DEC Alpha in your extended definition of earliest. None of > these machines were in the first wave of cheap computers. These all > folowed the Altair, which started the second wave in 1975 using a thrid > generation Intel microprocessor, the 8080. Oh please. You're saying that none of those machines would have happened without the Altair? What do you define as the "first wave of cheap computers"? The week that the Altair came out? All the computers I mentioned were within a year of the first production model of the Altair. Altair or not, they would have still been created. Are you also implying none of those processors would have happened without the Intel 4004? That's an incredibly narrow review of the history of the development of microprocessors. As I've stated before, the Intel 4004 was nothing amazing. Efforts were already under way (concurrently) by other companies to develop a "microprocessor". TI and AMI were just a couple. Intel just happened to be one of the first that coupled their technology with good marketing. Your sense of "history" seems to be narrowly focused on only what you've read, and does not at all reflect a comprehensive study of what actually took place. I'm not claiming to be all-knowing about what happened back in the early 70s with regard to microprocessor technology and microcomputer development, but I can tell that I have a greater understanding of what was really going on back then. I take my knowledge from first-hand sources who lived it. If you pay attention, you'll notice some of those first-hand sources sharing this first-hand information on the list occasionally. > > That certainly doesn't tell the whole story. The only thing this type of > > historical "documentation" serves is a company's marketing efforts. > > If you extend "marketing" to mean product definition, foundry capability, > price structure, excellent documentation (by trivia-inspiring Adam > Osborne, no less), support chip availability, reference platform > availability, training, etc., then you're getting closer to the truth. > Intel made a concerted effort to make microcomputers happen. Others > followed. If somebody else did *that* first, it would be very > interesting to know about. Oh, I get it! Intel's version of the events constitutes the WHOLE story, and all those "other guys" were silly and insignificant operations that made NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER on the progress of personal computing. Give me a break. > > I never argued that it was influential in the narrow realm of the history > > of the personal computer. I'm arguing that it has significance on its own > > merits, and also in the fact that if it had been commercialized, it would > > have advanced the development of subsequent microprocessors by five years > > (in the estimates of one reviewer, but probably a reasonable assessment). > > By comparing it to the Intel 4004, and trying specifically to displace the > 4004 from its position of "glory" as the first microprocessor, and > complaining that microprocessor history is simply corporate marketing and > press releases, you sure seem to be doing more than simply promoting the > F14 chip(s) on their own merit. That's how YOU are interpreting my actions. I'm simply trying to explain to you why the F14 CADC is significant on its own merits, and you're trying to (unsuccessfully) convince me its not terribly worthy of note. Intel did a good enough job entrenching their version of history in the public record, and no manner of arguing on my part will change that, and in fact, that is not my goal. I'm simply trying to promote the notion that there is more to this story than just "Intel creates the 4004", which is what you seem to be stuck on. The next time we get together I'll have to bring all the notes, articles and documentation I've collected from the 1971-1974 timeframe that demonstrates that there was much more going on than just Intel and their 4004, and that these other efforts had a far greater collective influence on the evolution of microprocessors than just the 4004 alone. > > I think what's relevant is that if you took the 4004, the best that Intel > > could produce at the time (1971) and chained 16 of them together, they > > still could not even begin to perform at the levels that the CADC had to, > > and certainly not within the space, power and temperature limitations > > imposed on the product. The CADC shows that much more was possible than > > was previously believed for that early era in microprocessor history. > > That's significant, and relevant. > > You're comparing apples to oranges. The products had vastly different > requirements, vastly different applications, and shouldn't be directly > compared. It's like trying to diminish the work of Henry Ford because > somebody built an airplane that was faster than the Model T six months > prior -- it's a non sequitur. Not at all. They were both LSI processors. A comparison is appropriate. Yes they had different requirements and applications, but my point was to refute your argument that the CADC was insignificant in the history of the development of microprocessors simply because it was not subsequently commercialized. As I proffered above, the CADC demonstrates that the possibilities were far greater than what the 4004 presented. The intent is not to diminish the importance of the 4004 at all, but to simply bring to awareness that the state of the art had not been pushed to its outer bounds with the 4004. I believe this is important to note, especially in a historical context in which one is arguing that an advancement in the state of the art occurred, which it clearly did not with the 4004. Your argument seems to be centered on commercial success, in which case you are giving the 4004 too much credit, since that did not occur until much later on with the 8080, the 6800 and the 6502. > Now, if you have evidence of Holt's design or implementation or > manufacturing techniques or even evangelical skills having impact on the > industry we all know and love, that would be good stuff for history of the > microcomputer. If you're simply saying that he produced a cool computer > for the Air Force and it allowed planes to fly cheaper faster and better, > then that's cool too, but it's not how you're framing this as I see it. Well, you're not paying attention to what I'm saying, and are instead trying to characterize my discourse on this subject in your own highly inflexible presuppositions. It's somewhat insulting. You've ignored all the references I've made to Ray's accomplishments at AMI, which is the company he went on to after the F14 project to create two more microprocessors (AMI7200 and AMI7300), and these creations, based in part upon his successful CADC design, certainly had an impact on the state of the art, not to mention the many other efforts going on at the same time by at least three other companies. These efforts were the early formation of what was to eventually become the microcomputer industry. Assigning Intel all the credit for virtually creating the industry is absurd. It certainly was not obvious back then that Intel would be grossing $21billion in 1998 and have a virtual monopoly on personal computing electronics. It was anyone's game. But perhaps I'm assuming you've studied the history, which doesn't seem to be the case. And in your defense, I have not offered much in the way of Holt's later work that included developing the training course for the Intel 4004, publication of the first microcomputer journal (_The Microcomputer Digest_), his JOLT, his VIM-1 (later SYM-1) and the prototype computer he provided to Radio Shack that quite possibly became the TRS-80, all of which would bolster my argument that the CADC carries tremendous significance, being his first work and therefore certainly providing some amount of influence on the designs of his subsequent work. > I don't have trouble with his accomplishments, I have trouble with your > spin. (Although it was a brilliant publicity vehicle for VCF, and you Since when is promoting the facts of the past "spin"? Unless you mean anything that doesn't fit into your narrow historical view is spin? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From KFergason at aol.com Wed Oct 7 19:23:16 1998 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... Message-ID: <476c524d.361c05f4@aol.com> In a message dated 10/7/98 4:41:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, allisonp@world.std.com writes: > Not a big secret. It's a fact and there is a jumper on the board for it. > > REASON: > At one point MOS Tech was going to make a 6500 that was pin interchangable > with the 6800 but moto took them to court. the expectation was they would > make one board that could be either 6800 or 6500. > I have read that they did make it, the 6501. And, moto took them to court, etc. Kelly From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 7 19:32:06 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: <19981007190819.24707.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 7 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > Sam wrote: > > I don't think this indicates that the Lisa was unofficially the Apple VI. > > I think its simply the product group Apple deicded to put the Lisa into. > > It certainly didn't officially have the name 'Apple VI' (or Apple 6), but > it is obvious that marketing viewed it that way, since they were responsible > for assigning the product codes. The engineers may not have, but so what? Or they simply needed to fit the Lisa product line into their existing numbering system, and arbitrarily chose A6. > Anyhow, this is about a zillion percent more evidence for someone (but > not necessarily everyone) in Apple considering it to be an Apple VI than > there is for it ever having been considered an Apple IV. I don't know how imporant the argument is (probably not much) but I don't think there's any evidence to support the supposition that marketing viewed the Lisa as the Apple 6, or any successor to the Apple ///. It would be neat to know what went into A4 and A5, but I don't think that would lead to any revelations. Your premise is based upon suspicions by some that the Lisa was actually the Apple IV, and I don't see any evidence of that either. When I get Steve Jobs to speak at the VCF in a couple years then you can ask him personally :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 7 19:46:02 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) In-Reply-To: <199810072310.AA05358@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199810072310.AA05358@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19981008004602.27215.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > REASON: > At one point MOS Tech was going to make a 6500 that was pin interchangable > with the 6800 but moto took them to court. the expectation was they would > make one board that could be either 6800 or 6500. Was going to? They did. It's called the 6501. I've got one. I just need to get a 6800 system to plug it into :-) Trivia question of the day: What instruction that is present on all later 6502-family processors (even the NMOS ones) was missing on the 6501 and early 6502s? Eric From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 7 19:55:33 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: VT55 In-Reply-To: References: <361BC1FD.62BC@bright.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981007195533.00c27bd0@pc> At 11:10 PM 10/7/98 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > >I have this option in my VT55. Alas the special chemical paper has long >since decayed, and I have never managed to get anything out of it, for >all it looks perfect electrically, the rollers turn, there is a suitable >high voltage on the electrodes, etc. Hmm, this is bringing back memories. The VT55 also had a weird graphic mode that gave two scan-lines of pixels that could be positioned vertically, right? This was interesting for drawing line graphs. I remember accessing these from BASIC on a PDP-11/03 in high school. I think I tried to write a subroutine library that would allow me to draw arbitrary lines on the screen by dithering the pixels of lines that were located in the same columns. - John From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 7 19:50:29 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Somebody has a C65 on eBay In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:32:06 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981008005029.27235.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > It certainly didn't officially have the name 'Apple VI' (or Apple 6), but > it is obvious that marketing viewed it that way, since they were responsible > for assigning the product codes. Sam replied: > Or they simply needed to fit the Lisa product line into their existing > numbering system, and arbitrarily chose A6. Yes, it may have been entirely arbitrary. More likely, some other projects were assigned the A4 and A5 numbers. However, my point was that no matter how '6' happened to be chosen, from a marketing point of view that made it an Apple 6. Based on your reasoning, you could just as easily claim that the Pentium 60 was not really an 80501. After all, Intel never used the '80501' number in big print in their advertising. Eric From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 7 20:12:04 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Little-known fact: The Apple 1 wasn't a 6502 machine... it was a 6502 OR > 6800 machine. Neat. Tell us more! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 7 20:16:26 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > Exactly. Naming things is just a way to classify them, to separate one > kind of thing from another. So, the first time a term like > "microprocessor" is coined is due to necessity -- a new thing came into > being and it needed a name. Applying that name to things that follow is a > convienient way to establish a relationship to the original thing. Then certainly similar things that came before it should also receive that same name? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Oct 7 20:22:33 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) In-Reply-To: <19981008004602.27215.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 8, 98 00:46:02 am Message-ID: <199810080122.SAA34132@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 879 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981007/b1fa72e6/attachment.ksh From oajones at bright.net Wed Oct 7 20:22:33 1998 From: oajones at bright.net (oajones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:12 2005 Subject: Help: Identify my board Message-ID: <361C13D9.7AC@bright.net> Can someone help identify this board? It has a 8085AH CPU in the A9 socket. On the right the board says "Intel (C) 1977 MADE IN USA." On the back of the circuit board is etched "PWB1001480-03 REV H." If you want to see what the board looks like click on my link below. http://www.bright.net/~oajones/myboard.jpg --Alan -- Computing since: 1982, VIC-20, CoCo, PC, CP/M Military Computers: COMTRAN 10, Nida 250 Amateur Radio since: 1971, WN8JEF, KA6EXR, N8BGR, AA4ZI BASIC, dBASE, Assembly, C++ mailto: oajones@bright.net From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 7 20:32:42 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) In-Reply-To: <199810080122.SAA34132@oa.ptloma.edu> (message from Cameron Kaiser on Wed, 7 Oct 1998 18:22:33 -0700 (PDT)) References: <199810080122.SAA34132@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <19981008013242.27776.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: >> Was going to? They did. It's called the 6501. I've got one. I just >> need to get a 6800 system to plug it into :-) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > But Motorola nixed it for copyright/patent reasons. MOS agreed to change > the design, made the 6502, and the rest is history. Actually they had already designed the 6502, for use in new designs where pin compatability with the 6800 was less important. The 6502 only needed a single-phase clock input rather than the two-phase non-overlapping clock required by the 6800, which made it somewhat easier to design with. Apparently Motorola didn't consider the 6502 to be as much as a threat, since it wasn't a drop-in replacement. >> Trivia question of the day: > ROR, I believe. We have a winner. > It appears on models after 1976, IIRC. According to my docs, Sept. 1975. I've always wondered whether the ROR was originally planned but just didn't work on the first silicon, or whether it was added to the design later. I haven't tried running ROR on my 6501 or early 6502s to see what happens. Eric From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Oct 7 08:49:39 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: New Finds Message-ID: <000101bdf1f9$54267880$1cb0adce@5x86jk> Today I walked into a thrift store and found a stack of Popular Science, Popular Mechanics, and others going back to 1974. I got real excited thinking I would find that had Altair on the cover (does anyone remember which issue that was ?), but no luck. I did get a October 1977 issue that covers home computers for $595. In it were pictures and write-ups on the following: Commodore PET Heath H-8 (article says new H-11 uses DEC LSI-1) Radio Shack model 1 Altair 8800 Single-board 8084 from IMSAI Southwest Technical's 6800 Sol Terminal Computer Technical Design Labs Z-80 Xitan Compucolor The Digital Group Cromeco Z-2 Poly 88 from PolyMorphic Vector Graphic Vector 1+ Challenger System from OSI EPA 6800 with hexidecimal keyboard There were many more mentioned in the article, all together I purchased 12 different issues at 7 cents each. Got a few manuals for cpu's, software, and printers all for 7 cents each. Got three apple IIc power supplies for $1 each along with various commodore power supplies for the same price. As soon as someone can tell me the right issue I will go back looking for it. John From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Oct 7 21:14:13 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems Message-ID: <6147b170.361c1ff5@aol.com> one of my 3 apple //GS wouldnt power up which after subbing parts out, turned out to be a power supply issue. i took the cover off the ps to look around finding nothing obviously wrong. i looked at the fuse and wasnt sure if it had burned out or not. call me crazy or whatever, but i used a paper clip to bypass the fuse and plugged the ac in and powered on for just a sec. i got a bit of smoke so i powered off and checkes. not finding the source, i did it again while watching. this time, something really smoked! it seems to be a small transformer of some sort, about 3/4 in square and 1 inch high and it's right near where the a/c comes into the power supply. there's a larger one right int he middle of the circuit board. it's still hot several minutes later! thankfully the computer itself is ok although it did reset my main computer on the same electrical outlet. provided i didnt destroy the whole bloody thing, what could be causing the problem? david From mbg at world.std.com Wed Oct 7 21:16:08 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Latets finds Message-ID: <199810080216.AA13594@world.std.com> >It looks like the vt62 could be equipped with an additional printer >unit. Is this correct? It takes the same thermal printer as found in the VT55... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From gram at cnct.com Wed Oct 7 21:23:20 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: What was the first Unix micro? References: Message-ID: <361C2218.3E448C98@cnct.com> OK, I'm getting tired of the arguments about who made the first microprocessor. Fine. Maybe God did -- it's called DNA and as an atheist I don't grant credit to anybody. Trivia question: who made the first successful mass-produced _and_ mass-marketed (in one system) Unix hardware platform? -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From mbg at world.std.com Wed Oct 7 21:22:55 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: The PDP lives! To the best of my (limited) knowledge, anyway... Message-ID: <199810080222.AA18066@world.std.com> >RT-11 is available on the net at... > >ftp://gatekeeper.dec.com/pub/digital/sim/software/rtv53swre.tar.Z Correction - it is available ONLY FOR USE WITH THE SUPNIK PDP-11 EMULATOR. The hobbyist license which comes with it does NOT permit use on real hardware. >If you find it on media you are permitted to use it as a hobbiest. Again, ONLY with the SUPNIK emulator. It may not even be used legally with any other emulator. Having been a part of making it available on the net, I ask that people not violate the terms of the license... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 7 21:25:23 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Oh please. You're saying that none of those machines would have happened > without the Altair? What do you define as the "first wave of cheap > computers"? The week that the Altair came out? All the computers I > mentioned were within a year of the first production model of the Altair. > Altair or not, they would have still been created. Micral, Mark-8, Scelbi 8H were the first wave. I don't know of any 4004 micros other than the MCS-4, but I doubt it was especially cheap or widely available compared to some of the others, and compared especially to the computers that came before. We have no way of knowing what *would* have happened if Intel hadn't invented the 4004 or if MITS hadn't invented the Altair, all we know is what *did* happen. You seem to be saying the the F14 computer could have been important if several events which didn't happen would have happended and if several events which did happen hadn't -- that's pointless pseudo-revision. > Your sense of "history" seems to be narrowly focused on only what you've > read, and does not at all reflect a comprehensive study of what actually > took place. I'm not claiming to be all-knowing about what happened back > in the early 70s with regard to microprocessor technology and > microcomputer development, but I can tell that I have a greater > understanding of what was really going on back then. I take my knowledge > from first-hand sources who lived it. Then you've kept this important knowledge hidden from us all. Please tell us. If there's a bit of Ray Holt in the machine I'm writing this mess from, I want to know! > Oh, I get it! Intel's version of the events constitutes the WHOLE story, > and all those "other guys" were silly and insignificant operations that > made NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER on the progress of personal computing. Give me > a break. I've never read Intel's versions of the events -- all I have to go on are artifacts. I'm not aware of any computer artifacts that support the idea that somebody else enabled cheap computers to be made before Intel did. If you're suggesting that Holt was somehow involved in a "race" or somehow influenced Intel to move when they did, that hasn't come through. Holt's F14 computer's influence on the microcomputer industry is still completely invisible to me. What am I missing? Where do I need to look to find this influence? > Your argument seems to be centered on commercial success, in which case > you are giving the 4004 too much credit, since that did not occur until > much later on with the 8080, the 6800 and the 6502. Not at all. I'm focusing completely on your argument that Holt did something important "first." Your whole argument seems to center on a fairly unimportant part of the meaning of the word "microprocessor". Let's say that the word "microprocessor" was never coined and that Intel just created a CPU called the 4004 that begat the 8008, 8080, Pentium, etc. That would seem to completely destroy the relevance of the F14 computer as far as microcomputers are concerned, but it does nothing to deminish the importance of the 4004. Nobody doubts that computers existed before Intel came along, or that LSI was being done by others at the same time or even earlier, but to focus on an LSI-based computer that came before the 4004 is to completely miss the importance of the 4004. LSI was just a means to an end: cheap computers. How much did the F14's computer cost, BTW? > Assigning Intel all the credit for virtually creating the industry is > absurd. It certainly was not obvious back then that Intel would be > grossing $21billion in 1998 and have a virtual monopoly on personal > computing electronics. It was anyone's game. But perhaps I'm assuming > you've studied the history, which doesn't seem to be the case. At no point did I mention Intel's long-term success. This discussion all along has been about the Big Bang that led eventually to cheap computers for all of us. My understanding is that you're saying that the F14 computer was the Big Bang. Did I misunderstand you? I'm saying that the 4004 was the Big Bang; that the dust from that explosion still bears the Intel imprint is interesting, but that's a different topic. -- Doug From ArfonRG at allSPAMERSmustDIE.Texas.net Wed Oct 7 20:43:48 1998 From: ArfonRG at allSPAMERSmustDIE.Texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: 8088 for free (well kinda)! Message-ID: <361C18D3.972DAABE@allSPAMERSmustDIE.Texas.net> Hey, I have a Hyundai Super 16 computer (no keyboard or monitor) that I need to get rid of. It has an 8088 Processor, an MFM? 5.25 floppy, a full height hard disc, a disc controller card (8-bit), an EGA? video adapter and a dirty case. I hate to waste something that someone else might be able to use so, if you want it email me at: arfonrg@allSPAMERSmustDIEhorribly.richmond.infi.net (remove the "allSPAMMERS..." stuff). Thanks, Arfon From ArfonRG at allSPAMERSmustDIE.Texas.net Wed Oct 7 20:48:02 1998 From: ArfonRG at allSPAMERSmustDIE.Texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Let's try this again...8088 for free (well kinda)! References: <361C18D3.972DAABE@allSPAMERSmustDIE.Texas.net> Message-ID: <361C19D2.F37D121C@allSPAMERSmustDIE.Texas.net> Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Hey, > > I have a Hyundai Super 16 computer (no keyboard or monitor) that I need to > get rid of. It has an 8088 Processor, an MFM? 5.25 floppy, a full height hard > disc, a disc controller card (8-bit), an EGA? video adapter and a dirty case. > > I hate to waste something that someone else might be able to use so, if you > want it email me at: > > arfonrg@allSPAMERSmustDIEhorribly.richmond.infi.net (remove the > "allSPAMMERS..." stuff). > > Thanks, > Arfon OOPS!!!! As for cost, all I as is for shipping...... Sorry! From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 7 21:32:38 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: What was the first Unix micro? In-Reply-To: <361C2218.3E448C98@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Trivia question: who made the first successful mass-produced _and_ > mass-marketed (in one system) Unix hardware platform? Man, what a loaded question. Words like "first", "successful", and "mass-" are the things that start these never-ending arguments. My answer: none! There hasn't yet been a successful Unix platform! -- Doug From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 7 21:31:09 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <981007223109.20c00137@trailing-edge.com> >I've never read Intel's versions of the events -- all I have to go on are >artifacts. I'm not aware of any computer artifacts that support the idea >that somebody else enabled cheap computers to be made before Intel did. Do I have to invoke the magic words "PDP-8" here? :-). Cheap enough that thousands made their way into high schools in the early 70's, and cheap enough that several did buy them for use at home. You don't need to be a "micro" to be affordable! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From gram at cnct.com Wed Oct 7 22:10:09 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines References: Message-ID: <361C2D11.FE4EF1F5@cnct.com> Salzman, Jeff wrote: > > > > >there is no one to carry on the tradition. I shudder to think about the > >eventual fate of all of our collections. Do we need a national repository > >for all of this stuff? By all the gods that never were, don't let the government ever get involved. They don't care about preserving what they were left by their own predecessors (the Bill of Rights is an ugly example), they sure as hell don't give a damn about any other legacy. > How about a collector's organization which can act as a willed > beneficiary for collectors. A board of directors can act in the best > interest of the collection should a member (or non-member?) die and > bequeath(sp?) his/her computer collection to the organization. Some > items can be kept for a museum piece while others can bid for a chance > to purchase the remaining items. This could fund the organization. The > organization can also conduct interviews with bidders to determine if > they are serving the best interest of the computer collection if they > get the desired item. A clause can be put in to require the item to be An inspection of how the bidder's _own_ collection is being maintained might be a clue as to worthiness. As long as it's all done by private individuals, not government agents. And _no_ government coercion or other involvement -- get them involved, they'll fuck anything up. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Oct 7 22:17:05 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: RT-11 on 8" media Message-ID: Some Newby-ish questions, if it so please The List: In a box of Stuff, I got 2 cartons of BASF 8".... one of which is marked "RT-11 V3 System DO NOT OVERWRITE!!!". And inside are 7 floppies, each with a DIR printout stuck in the envelope, (and the DIRs look like typical RT-11 files). These disks are numbered 21 - 26 and 30. The other box has no IDs of any kind, save three diskettes are labled 47, 49, and 50. The other 7 are unadorned, but they appear to have been spun... there are faint burnish markings on the surfaces. As an added, extra bonus, there is a listing of an 18-line Basic program which "Determines if One Number is a Factor of Another".... surely an unexpected blessing. All this absurd and useless detail aside... I am wondering if there is a 'Minimum Set' of files, which placed on a floppy(ies) would boot a PDP11... and, I am assuming, it would require Sysgenning? Is there available on the Web this info? Also, I have an 11/73 with RT-11SJ V5.0.... it has an 8" drive. What would I have to do to make a bootable minimal floppy on this machine? In other words how few files can one get away with to wake up a PDP11 with only an RX02 clone as it's mass storage? Bowing before the Silicon Slippers of the Knowledgeable Ones, Cheers John PS: Learning all the time..... TIA! From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 7 22:20:03 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Heathkit H8 vs. H-89 Message-ID: <199810080320.AA02714@world.std.com> < Does anybody know if the H8 and H-89 were software compatible? I know < CP/M was available for the H-89 (as well as HDOS), but I've only heard < rumors of an H-8 CP/M -- maybe they're the same? They were somewhat software compatable in that the both ran 8080 based software. The H89 was z80, the H8 was 8080, they had differenet IO port and memory maps. Both had different disk formats. CPM for both could be the same in the sense that the CCP and BDOS were always the same... The bios however was likely very different as that is the part that interacts with the IO and disks. Allison From gram at cnct.com Wed Oct 7 22:23:19 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines References: Message-ID: <361C3027.8B784372@cnct.com> Salzman, Jeff wrote: > > > > >Kind of a life time rental agreement ? > >Sounds interesting. This might be a good idea. > >But won't the mony winn over the idea ? > > There's always that issue. I find it analogous to retirement homes in > this area. People 'buy' a retirment home, townhouse, apartment, etc. for > a fixed price and then live there. When they die, it belongs to the > retirement home to sell again. The cycle continues. If you've seen some > of the homes around here, you know they've been around for a while. Part > of the charge funds maintenance fees and lawn care (the latter not being > important for computers). The continuous re-renting of the property > helps keep the available funds around to maintain everything. So, like a crowded restaurant with a line outside, the best interest from a business point of view is a quick turnover to clear the table for the next customer (or why did you _think_ the waiter always shows up with the next course before you've gotten half-way through the one before?). Especially if every table is prepaid, so no tip is expected. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From gram at cnct.com Wed Oct 7 22:34:21 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines References: <981007165600.20a00303@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <361C32BD.30279C28@cnct.com> CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > >Has there been any discussion about the eventual fate of our collections > >after we are gone? > > Well, some supersymmetric (SUSY) theories of grand unification predict > that protons will eventually decay. Current experiments put the mean life > of the proton at well over 10^40 years, so I'm not too worried myself. Yeah, Tim, but computers are made of more than single protons (so far). The half-life of molecules (and the frinstance computer cases made out of them) is a lot less -- not counting the magnetic charges in storage media. Most collectors don't _quite_ think about eternity for the machines, but a few generations might be nice. (I _do_ think about eternity, since I'm not handicapped by religious assumptions of mortality -- plus I don't collect "rare" pieces anyhow). -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 7 22:36:37 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: <000101bdf1f9$54267880$1cb0adce@5x86jk> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, John R. Keys, Jr. wrote: > Today I walked into a thrift store and found a stack of Popular Science, > Popular Mechanics, and others going back to 1974. I got real excited > thinking I would find that had Altair on the cover (does anyone remember > which issue that was ?), but no luck. I did get a October 1977 issue that > covers home computers for $595. In it were pictures and write-ups on the You've got the wrong magazine altogether. You want to get excited when you find issues of Popular Electronics. For the record: January 1975 Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 7 22:40:13 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: What was the first Unix micro? In-Reply-To: <361C2218.3E448C98@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > OK, I'm getting tired of the arguments about who made the first > microprocessor. Fine. Maybe God did -- it's called DNA and as an > atheist I don't grant credit to anybody. Oh, ok. God forbid we discuss computer history on this list, Ward. We'll just go away now so you can fill up the list with your pointless one-line replies. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 7 22:44:32 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: New Finds Message-ID: <199810080344.AA24991@world.std.com> < Today I walked into a thrift store and found a stack of Popular Science < Popular Mechanics, and others going back to 1974. I got real excited It was the Popular Electronics January 1975 issue. I still have the copy that arrived at home in the tradition of PE at the time in early December. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 7 22:44:38 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems Message-ID: <199810080344.AA25139@world.std.com> < right int he middle of the circuit board. it's still hot several minute < later! thankfully the computer itself is ok although it did reset my mai < computer on the same electrical outlet. provided i didnt destroy the who < bloody thing, what could be causing the problem? Shorted chopper transistor on the high voltage side and/or shorted shorted rectifiers. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 7 22:44:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810080344.AA25407@world.std.com> < We have no way of knowing what *would* have happened if Intel hadn't < invented the 4004 or if MITS hadn't invented the Altair, all we know is < what *did* happen. Therin lies the point we do not all know what did happen. There were many things that did happen that were unsuccessful or poorly marketed. < I've never read Intel's versions of the events -- all I have to go on ar < artifacts. I'm not aware of any computer artifacts that support the ide < that somebody else enabled cheap computers to be made before Intel did. By time PCs roamed the earth most of the players had died or were crushed. Intel was a very aggressive vendor even then. They played the you want 8205... then you buy OUR 8080 and 8224 and 8228 or forget it. That was when AMD and NATIONAL Semi and half a dosen other were also making 8080s. If anything it was intels competitors that drive the proce of the chips down so inexpensive computers could be made. Then ther ewas the manufaturers wars pushing the end price down. < etc. That would seem to completely destroy the relevance of the F14 < computer as far as microcomputers are concerned, but it does nothing to < deminish the importance of the 4004. True intel did that with the 8008, then the 8080 then the 8085 and the 8088 and the 80286... < At no point did I mention Intel's long-term success. This discussion al < along has been about the Big Bang that led eventually to cheap computer As a point the big bang nearly killed intel. In the early 80s intel was one of theose giving 10% across the board pay cuts (even managers!) due to the market pressure on them. < computer was the Big Bang. Did I misunderstand you? I'm saying that th It was White Sands, intel was the public display. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 7 22:44:52 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810080344.AA25817@world.std.com> < Do I have to invoke the magic words "PDP-8" here? :-). Cheap enough < that thousands made their way into high schools in the early 70's, and < cheap enough that several did buy them for use at home. < < You don't need to be a "micro" to be affordable! Thank you Tim! In 1972 I was offered a PDP-8I used (clean) for $2000 I should have save for I'd just bought a new truck ($2100)... Allison From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Oct 7 22:52:36 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, John R. Keys, Jr. wrote: > > > Today I walked into a thrift store and found a stack of Popular Science, > > Popular Mechanics, and others going back to 1974. I got real excited > > You've got the wrong magazine altogether. You want to get excited when > you find issues of Popular Electronics. > > For the record: January 1975 > > How about October 1954 Pop 'Tronics? (That's V1,#1) It has the first Carl and Jerry story, and, lest I stray off-topic, to computer-related articles, one on a CNC Punch driven by a GE computer (model unspecified) and a model train layout run with a *huge* panel of relays, wired to make logic decisions to avoid collisions. It was $.25, then..... sigh. Cheers John From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 7 22:51:43 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: <199810080344.AA24991@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > It was the Popular Electronics January 1975 issue. I still have the copy > that arrived at home in the tradition of PE at the time in early December. OK, more trivia. In which issue of what publication did the following first appear (I only know some of the answers, BTW): * Kenbak-1 * Scelbi 8H * Mark-8 * Apple 1 * Apple ][ -- Doug From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Oct 7 22:08:49 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... Message-ID: <19981007.224346.57.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Say WHAT?!?!! This requires an explaination . . . . On Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:17:33 -0700 Kai Kaltenbach writes: >Little-known fact: The Apple 1 wasn't a 6502 machine... it was a 6502 >OR >6800 machine. ^^^^^ > >Kai > >-----Original Message----- >From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:ckaiser@oa.ptloma.edu] >Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 3:08 PM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Re: kits, definitions, prices... > > >:: Should I hack my Apple-1 to sub in a 99 GHz Pentium for the >6502? > >Wash your mouth out with soap! (How about a 65816? :-) > >-- >-------------------------- personal page: >http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ >-- >Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database >Programmer >Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 >849 >2581 >ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 >849 >2539 >-- Never blame on malice what can be blamed on abject idiocy. >----------------- > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 7 23:01:15 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <199810080344.AA25407@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > Therin lies the point we do not all know what did happen. There were many > things that did happen that were unsuccessful or poorly marketed. I'll give you that. In fact, I'm pretty amazed at how many "personal computers" were available in the 1960's! These were mostly educational computers, but they were pretty cool, and some of them were pretty sophisticated. In truth, it's really software that drove the personal computer revolution, and pc's have been available since the 1950's, at least. -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Wed Oct 7 23:08:35 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 (was Re: Convergent Technologies workSlate) References: Message-ID: <361C3AC3.1219CA46@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > thrown in. The NEC and Olivetti versions depended on external modems > > I have the Olivetti version - an M10, and the PCB certainly has positions > for the internal modem components. Now, it would be quite normal for a UK > machine not to have the modem (our CCITT tones are different from Bell > tones at 300 baud, and there are different approval requirements), so I > assumed that the US model had the modem fitted. I have never read a report or review of an M-10 with an internal modem. And the magazines that covered the Model 100 _did_ review the Olivetti and NEC products, but of course those magazines were rather more than three moves ago (per Poor Richard, three removes equals one fire), but I do recall that they all had the same Kyocera main board with minor changes per customer. The mention in this thread of a Kyocera-labeled product intrigues me, as I'd never heard of such at the edge of the Pacific I was on then. (Nowadays, I'm on the west edge of the Atlantic, and it is not a fun place for a California boy to be -- hell, I'd rather be living on Jersey than in New Jersey). -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From william at ans.net Wed Oct 7 23:09:08 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > By that arguemnt, a built heathkit (or whatever) has little/no historical > value. And that's something that I don't accept. Today, if you build a classic (1950-60s) Heathkit, you really are changing the piece in a drastic way - probably more so than doing anything else to it. But building a classic Heathkit back in the 1950-60s _built_ the historic fabric associated with the kits! And there are _plenty_ of examples of built Heathkits out there, with all sorts of historic fabric just ready to be enjoyed - crummy joints, burnt wires, "improvements", notes from the builder, etc.. Same with Altairs... > The financial arguement is possibly bogus. Sure, you can get LOTS of enjoyment out of building a kit - so much that you probably can not put a value on it. From a purely accounting view, however, an unbuilt Altair, all complete and virgin, would fetch how much? Would anyone like to guess? My guess would be over $5,000. How many built Altairs could you buy for that much? William Donzelli william@ans.net From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Oct 7 23:21:01 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) In-Reply-To: <19981008013242.27776.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 8, 98 01:32:42 am Message-ID: <199810080421.VAA35088@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1497 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981007/d49ca40f/attachment.ksh From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Oct 7 23:27:28 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) In-Reply-To: <199810080421.VAA35088@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Oct 7, 98 09:21:01 pm Message-ID: <199810080427.VAA11406@saul10.u.washington.edu> > I bet it would work, or at least do something of interest. The "illegal > opcodes" of the NMOS and HMOS 6502s are quite functional -- Commodore programs > are littered with suspicious opcodes like LAX (load .AR and .X simultaneously). > With all that hidden functionality, why bother with the CMOS versions? ;-) I've always wondered about the internal construction of the 6502. Sure, you can look at a list of illegal instructions but the list doesn't tell you why the instructions do what they do, only what they do. I've also always wondered how the opcodes were allocated. (Perhaps to avoid being sued for 6800 compatibility?) In some cases, there is almost but not quite a pattern, and switching the opcodes around would make the pattern MORE apparent instead of less. (The register-transfer instructions are a good example.) So, does anyone have a copy of the 6502 mask designs lying around? :) And did Chuck Peddle ever show up at the VCF? He would be THE person to ask (OK, maybe Steve Wozniak would know too). -- Derek From gram at cnct.com Wed Oct 7 23:31:38 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... References: Message-ID: <361C402A.8FE46C68@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I don't think we have been arguing about the 'right answer'. The > discussions have always seems to be friendly disagreements where > everybody puts forward their views, and in most cases explains them. Some people collect cigar bands for the artwork. Some people collect cigar bands because it helps them recall the flavour of the cigar. Some people collect cigar bands because they're aiming for the Guiness record book. Little girls collect cigar bands to pretend they're wedding rings. I don't collect cigar bands -- I smoke cigars. And cigarettes [and there are the cigarette packaging collectors to fight off when you're discarding a Marlboro packet] and I smoke pipes, which I collect only when they fit my personality, at current retail price. My only "classic" pipe is my grandfather's turk's-head meerschaum, which I severely damaged the appearance of 25 years ago when I made the mistake of trying to clean it with the stuff for cleaning a briar pipe. I have been working on restoring the color through proper smoking ever since. It looks like another 15 years should do it. (It had only taken him 30 years to make it, but since I can't smoke it as often as he did due to the regulations everywhere, it takes longer). -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From gram at cnct.com Wed Oct 7 23:34:36 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... References: <199810072207.PAA13144@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <361C40DC.BD394831@cnct.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > :: Should I hack my Apple-1 to sub in a 99 GHz Pentium for the 6502? > > Wash your mouth out with soap! (How about a 65816? :-) You mean an Apple-1/GS? -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Oct 7 23:35:26 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Help: Identify my board In-Reply-To: <361C13D9.7AC@bright.net> Message-ID: Although not a classic Multibus board this board manufactured by Intel and would fit in a Multibus slot. It does use the power pins from a Multibus card slot. The model number escapes me for a moment but was still being manufactured in 1994. ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, oajones wrote: > Can someone help identify this board? It has a 8085AH CPU in the A9 > socket. On the right the board says "Intel (C) 1977 MADE IN USA." On the > back of the circuit board is etched "PWB1001480-03 REV H." If you want > to see what the board looks like click on my link below. > > http://www.bright.net/~oajones/myboard.jpg > > --Alan > -- > Computing since: 1982, VIC-20, CoCo, PC, CP/M > Military Computers: COMTRAN 10, Nida 250 > Amateur Radio since: 1971, WN8JEF, KA6EXR, N8BGR, AA4ZI > BASIC, dBASE, Assembly, C++ > mailto: oajones@bright.net > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 7 23:51:31 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Oh please. You're saying that none of those machines would have happened > > without the Altair? What do you define as the "first wave of cheap > > computers"? The week that the Altair came out? All the computers I > > mentioned were within a year of the first production model of the Altair. > > Altair or not, they would have still been created. > > Micral, Mark-8, Scelbi 8H were the first wave. I don't know of any 4004 > micros other than the MCS-4, but I doubt it was especially cheap or widely > available compared to some of the others, and compared especially to the > computers that came before. Ok, I can add the Kenbak-1 to your list and it would be just as irrelevant as the three you just listed. You just named three computers that barely made a scratch on the microcomputer industry. The Micral was never sold outside of France and very few units were sold anyway, so had limited if any impact on the industry on the whole. The Scelbi-8H sold in limited numbers and was effectively a failure and the Mark-8 was a magazine project. I don't see how these examples, however significant on their own merits (which they definitely are!) support your original argument. > We have no way of knowing what *would* have happened if Intel hadn't > invented the 4004 or if MITS hadn't invented the Altair, all we know is > what *did* happen. We would have had microprocessor-based computers on our desktop today. The trend was definitely heading in that direction. Intel merely was in the right place at the right time. There still would have been a Lee Felsenstein, a Steve Wozniak and a Ray Holt. > You seem to be saying the the F14 computer could have been important if > several events which didn't happen would have happended and if several > events which did happen hadn't -- that's pointless pseudo-revision. I'm not saying it could have, I'm saying it WAS and IS. The F14 CADC happened (independently and prior to the 4004). That is a fact. The AMI7200 and AMI7300 happened. That is a fact. Several other microprocessors from several other companies happened. That is a fact. Even if Intel had never existed, we STILL would have had the microcomputer revolution of around 1975, and today we would have microprocessor-based computers on our desks and in our pockets. To speculate otherwise would be absurd. > > Oh, I get it! Intel's version of the events constitutes the WHOLE story, > > and all those "other guys" were silly and insignificant operations that > > made NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER on the progress of personal computing. Give me > > a break. > > I've never read Intel's versions of the events -- all I have to go on are > artifacts. I'm not aware of any computer artifacts that support the idea > that somebody else enabled cheap computers to be made before Intel did. I don't have the Pyramids in my collection, so the Egyptians never built them. I don't have the Nina, the Pinta or the Santa Maria in my collection, so Columbus never "discovered America". I don't have an Apollo rocket in my collection, so America never made it to the moon. > If you're suggesting that Holt was somehow involved in a "race" or somehow > influenced Intel to move when they did, that hasn't come through. Holt's > F14 computer's influence on the microcomputer industry is still completely > invisible to me. What am I missing? Where do I need to look to find this > influence? You seem to have this idea that Intel deliberately acted to create the microcomputer industry, that they had this grand master scheme that would culminate in the Altair 8800. This is simply not the case. Intel did provide training and support to companies to use the 4004 in their applications, but where is your evidence that they knew this would lead to cheap computers? The 4004 was just the first in the succession of many microprocessors from many manufacturers. Why did the Mark-8 and Scelbi 8H designers choose the 8008? Who knows. What compelling evidence do you have that shows Intel intended for the 8008 to end up in those computers? An equally important question is what computers did the other microprocessors being developed at the time end up in? They had to have gone into something. Just because you don't have those in your collection, does not mean they were not built. > > Your argument seems to be centered on commercial success, in which case > > you are giving the 4004 too much credit, since that did not occur until > > much later on with the 8080, the 6800 and the 6502. > > Not at all. I'm focusing completely on your argument that Holt did > something important "first." Your whole argument seems to center on a > fairly unimportant part of the meaning of the word "microprocessor". I don't see how that relates to the argument this has evolved into. The F14 CADC was a microprocessor, arguably a single-chip CPU, that came before the 4004. That is fact. The first microprocessor was a significant milestone, whether it ended up evolving into what's on our desk today or not. Whether the Holt SLF was a "microprocessor" like the 4004 was a year later is obviously hotly contested for many different reasons. But the fact remains, it exists and was an amazing acheivement. Accept this and separate it from the rest of your argument and we're halfway to agreement. > Let's say that the word "microprocessor" was never coined and that Intel > just created a CPU called the 4004 that begat the 8008, 8080, Pentium, > etc. That would seem to completely destroy the relevance of the F14 > computer as far as microcomputers are concerned, but it does nothing to > deminish the importance of the 4004. I've never denied the relevance and significance of Intel processors in the evolution of microcomputers! That is indisputable! The 4004 is significant as being the first Intel processor that the later 8080 can trace its lineage to. Fine. But now you seem to be arguing a point that was never an issue when this debate started. I never argued that the F14 had a direct influence on the subsequent design of microcomputers. However, it certainly did have an indirect influence which manifested itself in Holt's later designs that I have outlined previously. You don't want to acknolwedge this, even though there are examples of this influence that you can add to your collection (which you need to so heavily rely upon). I can take your argument above and turn it around, saying that if Intel had never created a microprocessor there would still have been a microcomputer revolution. What I'm trying to say is that this revolution would have happened with or without Intel, and assigning them all the credit for creating this industry, or making it possible, or even influencing it is credit not entirely deserved. Intel came out the winners; they wanted it the most. But it would have happened with or without them. You had the 6800, the 6502 and a whole slew of others. The computers built around those processors were just as relevant and would have happened anyway. As it is, Intel scored the most points. I cede that point to you. > Nobody doubts that computers existed before Intel came along, or that LSI > was being done by others at the same time or even earlier, but to focus on > an LSI-based computer that came before the 4004 is to completely miss the > importance of the 4004. LSI was just a means to an end: cheap computers. > How much did the F14's computer cost, BTW? I want to say less than $100 per computer but I think it was actually less than $100 per chip. Still, that would put it at $600 at the most for the whole system (6 chips total in the F14 CADC). As far as focusing on the CADC, as I said, I am doing so ON ITS OWN MERITS, regardless of the 4004, which has its own significance and merits. But my point in comparing the two is still valid: the 4004, in light of the CADC, was not technically significant. I have been arguing this point (technical significance) all along, and you have been confusing this with overall historical significance. And I have attempted to show that the CADC does have relevance to later microcomputers in the form of the work Ray went on to produce. > At no point did I mention Intel's long-term success. This discussion all > along has been about the Big Bang that led eventually to cheap computers > for all of us. My understanding is that you're saying that the F14 > computer was the Big Bang. Did I misunderstand you? I'm saying that the Yes. See above. > 4004 was the Big Bang; that the dust from that explosion still bears the > Intel imprint is interesting, but that's a different topic. And I am still arguing that the 4004 was NOT the big bang. I don't want to put my thumb (at this point) on which Intel product it was. But it may not in fact even be an Intel product. It very well may be a combination of products from multiple vendors. I haven't seen any conclusive arguments to support the 4004 as being the big bang that started the microcomputer revolution. It was a pop, just like the CADC was a pop. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 8 00:01:51 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) In-Reply-To: <199810080427.VAA11406@saul10.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > > I bet it would work, or at least do something of interest. The "illegal > > opcodes" of the NMOS and HMOS 6502s are quite functional -- Commodore programs > > are littered with suspicious opcodes like LAX (load .AR and .X simultaneously). > > With all that hidden functionality, why bother with the CMOS versions? ;-) > > I've always wondered about the internal construction of the 6502. Sure, you > can look at a list of illegal instructions but the list doesn't tell you why > the instructions do what they do, only what they do. If you look at what bits are on in the opcode you can see how certain "illegal" instructions that perform, say accumulator operations and X register operations fit into both respective instruction families. > And did Chuck Peddle ever show up at the VCF? He would be THE person to ask > (OK, maybe Steve Wozniak would know too). Nope. Didn't see him. But he'll most likely be a speaker at VCF 3.0. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Thu Oct 8 00:03:34 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... Message-ID: <199810080503.BAA26259@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Caution: long-winded blather follows. Read at your own risk. :-) On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: ] ] On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Bill Yakowenko wrote: ] > I learned the definition of microprocessor to be a single-chip CPU, and ] > a microcomputer to be a computer based on a microprocessor. But I never ] > questioned it. Why is that a useful definition? ] [...] ] > I have my own ideas about which things are micros and which are not, but ] > in retrospect, the definition that I was taught is not a useful one; it ] > does not classify things into categories that I can use to any benefit. ] ] Exactly. Naming things is just a way to classify them, to separate one ] kind of thing from another. So, the first time a term like ] "microprocessor" is coined is due to necessity -- a new thing came into ] being and it needed a name. Applying that name to things that follow is a ] convienient way to establish a relationship to the original thing. Must it be things that *follow*? If another company had independently developed a single-chip CPU before Intel, (say they killed the project because some marketer popped in from the future and convinced them that Wintel would eventually kill it anyway) could you not bring yourself to call that thing a microprocessor? Isn't it the thing's physical properties that should matter, and not its intellectual ancestry? You are not a patent lawyer on the side, are you? :-) ] As far as I know, the name "microprocessor" was first given to Intel's ] 4004. It was just shorthand for "this new thing that has a high level of ] logic integration that gives you a bunch of stuff needed to build a ] general purpose computer." Calling anything else a microprocessor, to me, ] is just a way of saying it's a CPU that is in the same class as the Intel ] 4004: general purpose, highly integrated, commercially available, etc. Actually, it is not clear to me now if you consider that the defining characteristic of a microprocessor is that it descended from the 4004, or that it be single-chip. It looks like the only characteristic that a multi-chip implementation partially breaks here is "highly integrated". Then again, a two-chip implementation is not necessarily much less integrated than a single-chip. Now I wonder why this level of integration matters. Is there something that a two-chip implementation can't do, and a single-chip can? Did people really care about this level of space-savings to the extent that it was worth introducing a new word into the language? Maybe the significant bit was that the entire CPU was in specialized VLSI, and not made from parts so small and generic as to be re-wirable into something else altogether (ie: SSI/MSI). I mean, being reconfigurable is not in itself a bad thing, but if you are using parts that are so small and generic, maybe you have not achieved the level of integration that brings big cost benefits. If we count the non-genericity of the CPU chips as being the relevant feature of a microprocessor, then it is just an accident of history that the first things we called microprocessors were single-chip. Suddenly I like that definition a whole lot more than the one I grew up with. I generally dislike it when people try to redefine words for their own (usually political) purposes. But in this case, it seems we don't have a widely agreed-upon definition to begin with, so I don't feel too bad in changing sides. ] If somebody made a two-chip CPU that had all of the other characteristics ] of the Intel 4004, you'd have trouble calling it a microprocessor, because ] it would be missing something. Maybe you'd call it a two-chip ] microprocessor. If it were special purpose instead of general purpose, ] maybe you'd call it a special purpose microprocessor. But once you make ] something different enough from the 4004 that you need to add a bunch of ] qualifiers, you might as well just call it a CPU or come up with a new ] name. Actually, until ten minutes ago, I would have had trouble calling the two-chip thing a microprocessor because it broke the definition I learned as a kid: single-chip. But even the characteristic of being similar to a 4004 is relevant to the extent that you are careful in choosing which way it has to be similar. The first 4004's were probably in ceramic; should that be part of the definition? Probably not. Why did we care about the 4004? Is being implemented on a single chip really the important bit? Or was it cost, ease of use, small size, ...? A two-chip implementation could very well have been important to us for exactly the same reasons that the 4004 was. I can see that explaining why computers suddenly became cheap and ubiquitous could be useful. But the "single-chip" definition of a microprocessor is only circumstantially related to that. If the 8080 and its cousins had actually been multi-chip implementations, things would have progressed exactly the same way. (And pigs with wings *would* be eagles, dammit! :-) ) So, when is it useful to distinguish single-chip from, say, dual-chip? What kind of practical decision would someone make based on that? ] -- Doug Cheers, Bill. BTW, was the 4004 really the first in the Intel series of 4004, 4040, 8008, and 8080? I seem to remember that something in this sequence actually happened in non-ascending order, like maybe the 8008 preceded the 4004, or the 4040 came out last, or ...? It could make sense; you could imagine scaling back an existing design to penetrate some niche market with a cheaper part. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Thu Oct 8 00:21:01 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 7, 98 10:01:51 pm Message-ID: <199810080521.WAA17964@saul7.u.washington.edu> > If you look at what bits are on in the opcode you can see how certain > "illegal" instructions that perform, say accumulator operations and X > register operations fit into both respective instruction families. The "family" idea bothers me. I've seen charts of "How the 6502 decodes instructions" in various books -- they break the instructions down based on the first and last few bits, in other words into families. They then list the remaining bits with their corresponding opcodes. The problem is that even the legitimate opcodes fit into more than one family (according to the rough schemes in the books). Clearly the 6502 has one exact way of decoding instructions and one well-defined way of reacting to the undocumented opcodes. Of course I don't know what that way is, but it's there. The books are just making a rough model of the chip. I'm thinking about medieval philosophers. Their arguments were limited by a whole slew of assumptions, religious beliefs, etc., and they had to shoe- horn the ideas they worked with into the constraints imposed on them. Their philosophy wasn't _bad_, but from a different and remote vantage point it seems profound and simple at the same time and somewhat bizarre. (I could be very wrong about this, since I just have a few terms like "scholasticism" floating around in my head. Can anyone suggest a good book?) It would be really impressive to create a chip with enough flexibility in the opcode set to accommodate shades of meaning or a grammar of instructions. But the 6502 isn't that chip, even if it seems that way. Are there any simple reverse-engineering techniques (like looking at an open package under a microscope)? And how many 6502's fit on the head of a pin? [Chuck Peddle] > Nope. Didn't see him. But he'll most likely be a speaker at VCF 3.0. Boy, you have all *kinds* of irons in the fire. -- Derek From altair8800 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 8 00:29:08 1998 From: altair8800 at hotmail.com (Bob Wood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: eBay strangeness Message-ID: <19981008052908.13287.qmail@hotmail.com> Am wondering if it is me or if everyone is experiencing this? Someone has listed an Altair 4k memory board. The eBay item number is 34468468. Whenever I go to this listing, my computer locks up. It has happened every time I have tried since earlier in the day. Only happens with this listing and no others. It seems to happen as soon as eBay starts to download the photo from the seller's web site. I have never experienced this with any other eBay auction. Bob Wood ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Oct 8 00:33:06 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981006094039.00f3aad0@pc> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, John Foust wrote: > >> I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance > >> represented on this list. Speaking of which, are there any more Altair 680s on this list? There's plenty of info on 8800s, but I've found almost nothing on my 680. ttyl srw From yowza at yowza.com Thu Oct 8 00:42:28 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Ok, I can add the Kenbak-1 to your list and it would be just as irrelevant > as the three you just listed. You just named three computers that barely > made a scratch on the microcomputer industry. The Micral was never sold > outside of France and very few units were sold anyway, so had limited if > any impact on the industry on the whole. The Scelbi-8H sold in limited > numbers and was effectively a failure and the Mark-8 was a magazine > project. I don't see how these examples, however significant on their > own merits (which they definitely are!) support your original argument. The Kenbak wasn't listed because it didn't use a microprocessor. The others are considered the first generally available microcomputers, regardless of how successful they were. I don't think it was a coincidence that they all used Intel microprocessors. > I don't have the Pyramids in my collection, so the Egyptians never built > them. I don't have the Nina, the Pinta or the Santa Maria in my > collection, so Columbus never "discovered America". I don't have an > Apollo rocket in my collection, so America never made it to the moon. I've got a pyramid for you right here (obscene gesture follows)! It doesn't have to be *my* artifact, I'd settle for anybody's artifact. Point me to a generally available general purpose microcomputer that appeared before all of the ones mentioned above and included a non-Intel microprocessor. > You seem to have this idea that Intel deliberately acted to create the > microcomputer industry, that they had this grand master scheme that would > culminate in the Altair 8800. This is simply not the case. Intel did > provide training and support to companies to use the 4004 in their > applications, but where is your evidence that they knew this would lead to > cheap computers? If Eric ever puts his MCS-4 manual up on the web, then you'll see an early example of an Intel reference platform that shows that the 4004 and support chips were aimed at exactly that! Even my copy of the MCS-8 manual shows several early design wins, and they even called them microcomputers back then (before the Micral was out). I've mentioned these machines on the list before, but I've already forgotten their names (because I don't have any of them). > I want to say less than $100 per computer but I think it was actually less > than $100 per chip. Still, that would put it at $600 at the most for the > whole system (6 chips total in the F14 CADC). Is this documented? I'm shocked. They must have produced a bunch of F14's for the price to have been that low! > As far as focusing on the CADC, as I said, I am doing so ON ITS OWN > MERITS, regardless of the 4004, which has its own significance and merits. > But my point in comparing the two is still valid: the 4004, in light of > the CADC, was not technically significant. I have been arguing this point > (technical significance) all along If the F14 computer was really as cheap as you say, then you're right. I'm sure Intel had a gate budget and a price point they were shooting for, so if those two parameters are similar for both designs, you've got a point. Otherwise, you can't judge the "technical significance" of the 4004 by comparing it to, say, a special purpose computer with different design goals and silicon budgets. So, what was the gate count for the single-chip F14 CPU? What was the process? How much silicon did it use? And double-check that price! -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Thu Oct 8 00:50:13 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: eBay strangeness In-Reply-To: <19981008052908.13287.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Bob Wood wrote: > Someone has listed an Altair 4k memory board. The eBay item number is > 34468468. Whenever I go to this listing, my computer locks up. It has > happened every time I have tried since earlier in the day. Only happens > with this listing and no others. It seems to happen as soon as eBay > starts to download the photo from the seller's web site. I have never > experienced this with any other eBay auction. This is the famous eBay Altair virus. I'd stay away from eBay if I were you. (Try hitting escape duing the page load, it's just that the guy put some HUGE graphics in his listing, so it takes forever to load if you've got a slow link.) -- Doug From mbg at world.std.com Thu Oct 8 00:50:25 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: RT-11 on 8" media Message-ID: <199810080550.AA23680@world.std.com> >In a box of Stuff, I got 2 cartons of BASF 8".... one of which is >marked "RT-11 V3 System DO NOT OVERWRITE!!!". Congrats... been a while since I've seen one... > All this absurd and useless detail aside... I am wondering if >there is a 'Minimum Set' of files, which placed on a floppy(ies) >would boot a PDP11... and, I am assuming, it would require Sysgenning? It's been so long since I saw a V3 kit, I've forgotten whether it was a version with split monitors and device handlers, or if the monitor had to have the system device built in (and the table for all other supported ones as well). If the latter, than you'll probably need to locate a file with a name of the form RXMNSJ.SYS (for RX01 MoNitor - Single Job). This file, with SWAP.SYS and PIP.SAV and you should have enough to start. You'll have to write the bootstrap on it, which, if I remember correctly, was done with .R PIP *DX:A=DX:RXMNSJ.SYS/O *^C (I don't think DCL was available yet... maybe CCL, but it is clumsy). If the former, then you'll need: SWAP.SYS RT11SJ.SYS DX.SYS PIP.SAV (and the bootstrap, written as mentioned above). > Is there available on the Web this info? There is a faq - I've forgotten where it is located... > Also, I have an 11/73 with RT-11SJ V5.0.... it has an 8" drive. >What would I have to do to make a bootable minimal floppy on this >machine? In other words how few files can one get away with to wake >up a PDP11 with only an RX02 clone as it's mass storage? By V5.0 time, the split monitors/handlers had been long accomplished, and DCL was around, and PIP had been split, so you'll need the following: SWAP.SYS RT11SJ.SYS (or RT11FB.SYS or RT11XM.SYS) DX.SYS (or DX.SYS or DXX.SYS) (plus any other device drivers you want) DIR.SAV DUP.SAV PIP.SAV RESORC.SAV And creating a bootable floopy is as simple as: COPY/BOOT DX0:RT11SJ.SYS DX0: (or substitute RT11FB or RT11XM) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Oct 8 00:52:04 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Looking for -10 software Message-ID: <199810080552.AA23837@world.std.com> Would anyone happen to have sources (and maybe even binaries) for EDDT or any programs which come on paper tape for the -10? I, um, er, need to test some code... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Oct 8 00:50:00 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Question: Godbout/CompuPro ram boards Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981007225000.02e8a910@agora.rdrop.com> Can anyone confirm this vague memory, or set me straight? I seem to recall that one (or more) of the Godbout/CompuPro ram boards used a 2kx8 static RAM part that had the same pinout as a 2716 EPROM, and could support 2716s in place of some/all of the RAM chips. True or false? And if true, was there any special configuration that needed to be done for the 2716s? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Oct 8 00:58:09 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: eBay strangeness Message-ID: Yeah, an unbuilt kit 4K memory board. Which is kind of neat, but it follows in the footsteps of all the bizarre bare unpopulated Altair circuit boards that have been on eBay lately. Did you notice the PET that STARTS at $575?!? Kai -----Original Message----- From: Bob Wood [mailto:altair8800@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 10:29 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: eBay strangeness Am wondering if it is me or if everyone is experiencing this? Someone has listed an Altair 4k memory board. The eBay item number is 34468468. Whenever I go to this listing, my computer locks up. It has happened every time I have tried since earlier in the day. Only happens with this listing and no others. It seems to happen as soon as eBay starts to download the photo from the seller's web site. I have never experienced this with any other eBay auction. Bob Wood ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From marvin at rain.org Thu Oct 8 01:01:10 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: New Finds References: <000101bdf1f9$54267880$1cb0adce@5x86jk> Message-ID: <361C5526.1A52999D@rain.org> John R. Keys, Jr. wrote: > > Today I walked into a thrift store and found a stack of Popular Science, > Popular Mechanics, and others going back to 1974. I got real excited > thinking I would find that had Altair on the cover (does anyone remember > which issue that was ?), but no luck. I did get a October 1977 issue that The Jan/Feb Popular Electronics were the "Altair" issues. In checking through the magazines I just received, I found a complete set of Popular Electronics for both 1975 and 1976!!! I didn't realize Popular Science and Popular Mechanics had good computer info as well; something else to keep eyes open for! From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Oct 8 01:22:49 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: eBay strangeness In-Reply-To: <19981008052908.13287.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981007232249.0372be4c@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:29 PM 10/7/98 PDT, you wrote: >Am wondering if it is me or if everyone is experiencing this? > >Someone has listed an Altair 4k memory board. The >eBay item number is 34468468. Whenever I go to this >listing, my computer locks up... >It seems to happen as soon as eBay starts to download the >photo from the seller's web site. I have never experienced >this with any other eBay auction. Hmmm... works ok for me... The images are annoyingly large though and there does appear to be one broken image link. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Oct 8 01:30:05 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Question: Godbout/CompuPro ram boards Message-ID: Well, both the RAM16 and RAM17 use 24-pin 2Kx8 6116 SRAMs, but I checked the tech manuals and there is no mention of EPROM compatibility. The RAM20 was back to 18-pin DIPs, and all the Godbout Econorams I've seen are 18-pin. In short, no clue... Kai -----Original Message----- From: James Willing [mailto:jimw@agora.rdrop.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 10:50 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Question: Godbout/CompuPro ram boards Can anyone confirm this vague memory, or set me straight? I seem to recall that one (or more) of the Godbout/CompuPro ram boards used a 2kx8 static RAM part that had the same pinout as a 2716 EPROM, and could support 2716s in place of some/all of the RAM chips. True or false? And if true, was there any special configuration that needed to be done for the 2716s? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From svs at ropnet.ru Thu Oct 8 06:47:03 1998 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Irwin 125 floppy tape drive Message-ID: <19981008114703.26164@firepower> G'day, What software for PC-DOS can drive this monster? Whopping 20 megabytes per tape :) I'll try Linux ftape too, but in case it fails, I'd like to have an alternative. -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 8 02:50:36 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems In-Reply-To: <6147b170.361c1ff5@aol.com> (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) References: <6147b170.361c1ff5@aol.com> Message-ID: <19981008075036.29268.qmail@brouhaha.com> David wrote: > call me crazy or whatever, but i used a paper clip to > bypass the fuse and plugged the ac in and powered on for just a sec. i got a > bit of smoke so i powered off and checkes. not finding the source, i did it > again while watching. this time, something really smoked! OK, you're crazy or whatever. Don't *ever* short a fuse. The fuse is there for a reason, which is to protect the expensive components. If the fuse blows, it is possible that nothing is actually wrong. The way to test for this is to put in another fuse, not to short it out. If the new fuse blows also, there's a serious problem. When I was trying to repair my first Atari X-Y (vector) monitor, from a Battlezone game, I kept mistakenly thinking that I had solved the problem, and blowing another fuse. The guy at Radio Shack noticed that I kept buying fuses, and told me to just short across it. Fortunately I knew better than to follow his advice. If I had done so, I would have ruined the deflection yoke. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 8 03:01:30 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:13 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines In-Reply-To: <361C32BD.30279C28@cnct.com> (message from Ward Donald Griffiths III on Wed, 07 Oct 1998 23:34:21 -0400) References: <981007165600.20a00303@trailing-edge.com> <361C32BD.30279C28@cnct.com> Message-ID: <19981008080130.29314.qmail@brouhaha.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Yeah, Tim, but computers are made of more than single protons (so > far). The half-life of molecules (and the frinstance computer cases > made out of them) is a lot less -- not counting the magnetic charges > in storage media. And the magnetic media is likely to last a lot longer than the bits in any EPROMs, EEPROMs, Flash memory, etc. This is especially pernicious in devices that are "secured" against reading, like single chip microcontrollers and EPLDs. In the old days I made sure to back up the EPROMs in every device I purchased. For new equipment now, it is not even worth the effort, since even if I do back up the EPROM some other chip that I can't back up will fail. IIRC, EPROM manufactureres have usually claimed a 20 year retention life. I have some EPROMs that were programmed in 1977 and still read reliably. Others that were written as recently as 1992 already have marginal bits. If anyone has the idea that they will be able to save a computer made in 1988 for another 40 years, and then be able to demonstrate it working, think again. On the other hand, it will probably be possible to keep older hardware like the PDP-8/e working for as long as TTL chips or suitable replacements can be found. Eric From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 8 05:02:15 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines Message-ID: <199810080843.KAA10547@marina.fth.sbs.de> Sam: > On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: >> At first, a 'big' collection, like a museum (and I just >> assume there will be in the future some computer museums >> at least the size of car collections) will have already >> more than 95% of your (or mine) collection, counting the >> CPU's, so they only need 5% for display. The rest will be >> surplus or spare parts in best case. >> Second, they will have, for shure, already more computers >> and accessories than they are able to display. So yours >> might never be seen again autside the warehouse. >> Third, (and most important in my eyes) 99% of all of the >> hard to get software and documentation will never go on >> display > But at least it will be preserved for future research, which is important. or stay for some years until decomposed and ready for enhancing the vegetables area of your garden (like the former owner ...) >> Personal I have not decided what to do with my collection >> (althrugh I alredy have a last will where several persons >> are picked to get some parts or to be responsible for the >> distribution). > You mean you don't remember signing them over to me when you were > visiting? Alcohol does that to a brain. (You'd better check your wallet > too.) Of course I remember about our deal. As soun as the USD 100,000.00 are on my secret swiss account, you will get the promise of full and undivided ownership of all my VIC-20 stuff. >> c) sell them among fellow collectors for their real >> value. That means for example 100 USD for a C65 >> or a chicklet PET. > Are we talking eBay dollars or swap meet dollars? Just talkin about what I belive any old computer is worth: a nice talk and 1 to 5 USD or maybe 50 to 100 USD for real ohmigodicantbelive finds. (Just my personal feeling - In fact I pay most time a lot more :() Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 8 05:28:20 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Eventual fate of our machines Message-ID: <199810080909.LAA00759@marina.fth.sbs.de> > There's always that issue. I find it analogous to retirement homes in > this area. People 'buy' a retirment home, townhouse, apartment, etc. for > a fixed price and then live there. When they die, it belongs to the > retirement home to sell again. The cycle continues. If you've seen some > of the homes around here, you know they've been around for a while. Part > of the charge funds maintenance fees and lawn care (the latter not being > important for computers). The continuous re-renting of the property > helps keep the available funds around to maintain everything. > I'm not saying that the 'organization' fund for maintenance to whoever > rented the computer, but the concept is similar. The end goal in this > case is to do what's possible to keep it around for the next person. I always fear that 'the organisation' will be put before the mission - in this case profit maximization instead of preserving the past. >>But, if we could keep it to a small and more individual to >>individual base, I'm in. > Do I hear charters? ??? Maybe I lost the thread here. >>> Some of the funding can also be used to provide insurance coverage to >>> members by people who know the value of what's being insured. >>Thats a very dangerous terrain. > I do agree with you. Here, in the state of Pennsylvania, insurance of > any type is heavily regulated. It may not be as bad for other states or > countries. Maybe not - Afaik are insurances around the world very heavy regulated - to keep fraud away and to get enough taxes ... Another possible aproach might be to cooperate with insurance companies. Maybe the same way as for old car collections. At least here in Germany some (smaler) insurance companies are offering very interesting deals in cooperation with Verteran associations. One can get an all included insurance for a USD 200,000 veteran car for less than an minimal insurance for a actual USD 60,000 Mercedes. It just took around 15 years of talks to give them the idea how the collectors handle the cars and whats all this old car stuff is about. There are now even premium insurances where they will pay a complete rebuild of the car, even when burned. Even when a 'new' would be cheaper - and all at an afordable rate - thats exactly what a collector want: keep HIS car (computer) not just one of the same kind. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 8 05:54:37 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... Message-ID: <199810080935.LAA02850@marina.fth.sbs.de> > There are a handful of questions that keep getting re-hashed. > Build my SwTPC kit and play with it, or treasure it in pristine form? Ill take the burden. > Is my LSI-11 a micro, or not? Who cares > Are my XT's really classic? Of corse - I could also sell you a secon one - just $$$,$$$.$$ > Should I hack my Apple-1 to sub in a 99 GHz Pentium for the 6502? Geee what a great Idea - just go ahead. > Wanna buy a 1200 baud modem? No, I'm still fine with my 300 coupler SCNR H. (But I get your Idea) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 8 05:54:36 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 (was Re: Convergent Technologies workS Message-ID: <199810080935.LAA02823@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> thrown in. The NEC and Olivetti versions depended on external modems >> I have the Olivetti version - an M10, and the PCB certainly has positions >> for the internal modem components. Now, it would be quite normal for a UK >> machine not to have the modem (our CCITT tones are different from Bell >> tones at 300 baud, and there are different approval requirements), so I >> assumed that the US model had the modem fitted. > I have never read a report or review of an M-10 with an internal modem. > And the magazines that covered the Model 100 _did_ review the Olivetti > and NEC products, but of course those magazines were rather more than > three moves ago (per Poor Richard, three removes equals one fire), but > I do recall that they all had the same Kyocera main board with minor > changes per customer. Maybe no Magazine did review it, but I own an M10 with internal Modem. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 8 05:54:37 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... Message-ID: <199810080935.LAA02841@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> :: Should I hack my Apple-1 to sub in a 99 GHz Pentium for the 6502? >> Wash your mouth out with soap! (How about a 65816? :-) > You mean an Apple-1/GS? Hmm wouldn't give the 65802 the better replacement ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 8 07:16:24 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Atari returns from the grave Message-ID: <199810081057.MAA14054@marina.fth.sbs.de> > http://www.milan-computer.de/html_gb/produkt.html The Machine is already in European Shops since half a year. Last Week they showed the 50 MHz 060 Version at the Atari Messe in Neuss, Germany. 80 MHz is anounced around december. This ist not a back from Grave thing - he is still alive and better than ever. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 8 07:23:12 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Latets finds Message-ID: <199810081104.NAA24300@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> It looks like the vt62 could be equipped with an additional printer >>> unit. Is this correct? > I believe the VT62 is somewhat related to the VT52. The VT62 is a VT52 with inverse video. thats all. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 8 07:23:12 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Latest finds Message-ID: <199810081104.NAA24495@marina.fth.sbs.de> > I got the kit for 50 guilders ($25), which is not a bad price if > you ask me for such a near complete kit. As for the moment, I don't > ha From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Oct 8 07:08:13 1998 From: thedm at sunflower.com (TheDM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Aquarius Data Recorders Message-ID: <002401bdf2b4$5324d600$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> Id pay 10 for one also, and put me down for TWO. -----Original Message----- From: Kai Kaltenbach To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 4:19 PM Subject: RE: Aquarius Data Recorders >Well, my whole Aquarius only cost $35 with mini-expander and 3 carts, so I >guess I'd go maybe $10 on a tape drive. > >Kai > >-----Original Message----- >From: David Williams [mailto:dlw@trailingedge.com] >Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 1:50 PM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Aquarius Data Recorders > > >I just received an email from a local group which has 250 new in >box Aquarius cassette recorders. They are taking bids but I >suspect you can't just buy a few but would have to take the whole >lot. I have one but could use at least one more and maybe two and >it would be nice to have the box and any doc or cables. Is there >any interest in this out there? If so, how much would people be >willing to pay? Don't forget shipping costs. Let me know. BTW, >"local" in this case is Houston, TX. > > >----- >David Williams - Computer Packrat >dlw@trailingedge.com >http://www.trailingedge.com From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Oct 8 07:15:11 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Looking for -10 software In-Reply-To: <199810080552.AA23837@world.std.com> Message-ID: <13394119372.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I got Toad to make a RIM tape of ITSs Monitor DDT, want that? (I'm not sure if it's built correctly, it's for a KA with no disks...) ------- From bobstek at ix5.ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 8 10:46:27 1998 From: bobstek at ix5.ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Help Message-ID: <000001bdf2d2$cfcfd4c0$b70b3ccc@mycroft> I have a manual for the N* HRAM series which I'd be happy to copy and send you - email me. There are some differences between revision B and E boards and there are lots of jumper options. In summary, S1 and S2 select the active memory areas, JP1 selects the bank status on reset and selects I/O control bits for bank switching and parity, JP2 selects areas to be bank switched, JP3 selects the parity error response, JP4 implements the First Quadrant option (only revision E 48K version), and JP6 is reserved (no jumper). Bob Stek bobstek@ix.netcom.com Saver of Lost SOLs (and the occasional Horizon) From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Oct 8 08:04:52 1998 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Heathkit H8 vs. H-89 In-Reply-To: <199810080320.AA02714@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810081304.JAA06075@quartz.netsync.net> At 23:20 10/07/98 -0400, Allison wrote: >< Does anybody know if the H8 and H-89 were software compatible? I know >< CP/M was available for the H-89 (as well as HDOS), but I've only heard >< rumors of an H-8 CP/M -- maybe they're the same? > >They were somewhat software compatable in that the both ran 8080 based >software. The H89 was z80, the H8 was 8080, they had differenet IO port >and memory maps. Both had different disk formats. > >CPM for both could be the same in the sense that the CCP and BDOS were >always the same... The bios however was likely very different as that >is the part that interacts with the IO and disks. Oh gosh, it's been a long time but the software was (for the most part!) compatible. I'm going back 9 or 10 years now since I last really hit the keyboards of my H8/H19 and H/Z89 machines. Third-party s/w could have had Z80-specific code written-in at the expense of some of the older 8080-based H8 machines of the time which were not yet upgraded to Z80. Usually, it seems though, everybody wrote assembler code so that either the s/w checked to see which processor was used or wrote straight 8080 asm code to just cover everybody without having the extra CPU checking code taking up space. Most commercial language interpreters and compilers, especially from Heath, handled 8080-based machines for sure. Allison, for the H8 there were at least two third-party Z80 CPU boards made (I can look up the mfgrs if anybody wants) and a Heath-made Z80 board. Early on when the Z80 became rather popular, the original 8080 CPU board was of course found to be lacking in performance compared to the TRS-80's, N*, Kaypros, various S100's and other contemporary CP/M Z80 machines. Hence, the little cottage industry, so to speak, which sprang up to deal with making Z80 boards. A 4 MHz CPU by DG Micro (I think that's the name) really was a performer up against many other machines. The H-89 was a Z80 machine when it first was introduced around 1980 or thereabouts. Anybody recall Trionyx Electronics who were in Southern California? The fellow who ran it was an ambitious sort when it came to making H8 accessory boards and a Z80 CPU board. I've got a significant stash of H8, H/Z-89/90 and H/Z-100 paper stored away in boxes plus the hardware to go with it. I've got a bunch of H-11 stuff too although I just got the equipment and paper in the past year and don't know much about it yet. I can look up H8/H89/H100/H11 info if anybody needs it and if they can wait 'till I can dig through a mountain of boxes and equipment (I just moved much of the collection from the old house. It's a mess! Just ask Hans and his wife who were visiting us several weeks ago. Even more was stuffed into this house since they were here.) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com Thu Oct 8 08:14:56 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: RT-11 on 8" media Message-ID: <981008091456.20c00137@trailing-edge.com> > Is there available on the Web this info? Probably, but the authoratitive source for this sort of thing is the manual that matches the version of RT you're interested in. > Also, I have an 11/73 with RT-11SJ V5.0.... it has an 8" drive. >What would I have to do to make a bootable minimal floppy on this >machine? In other words how few files can one get away with to wake >up a PDP11 with only an RX02 clone as it's mass storage? That's easy: SWAP.SYS, TT.SYS, DY.SYS (or DX.SYS or whatever driver your hardware uses for the 8" drive), and a monitor (RT11SJ.SYS). This gives you a bootable minimal floppy which is capable of doing very little :-). Almost certainly you want to put PIP, DIR, DUP, FORMAT, and other useful "recovery utilities" on as well (BUP if you use it, your favorite editor, etc.). And certainly the drivers for any other devices you may be interested in. And, of course, after putting the files on the floppy, you want to make it hardware bootable too! COPY/BOOT DY:RT11SJ DY:, for example. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com Thu Oct 8 08:24:34 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at timaxp.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Question: Godbout/CompuPro ram boards Message-ID: <981008092434.20c00137@trailing-edge.com> >I seem to recall that one (or more) of the Godbout/CompuPro ram boards used >a 2kx8 static RAM part that had the same pinout as a 2716 EPROM, and could >support 2716s in place of some/all of the RAM chips. True or false? True! The part is the Hitachi (or compatible) 6116P-2. >And if true, was there any special configuration that needed to be done for >the 2716s? It depends on the exact board; most boards that would take either had a jumper per socket to set RAM vs EPROM. Which board are you specifically interested in? When I bought out the stock of the last remaining Compupro dealer I ended up with most of the manuals in addition to hundreds of boards... This feature certainly wasn't confined to Compupro; there were several dozen other manufacturers of memory boards that did this, too. Most of the time the jumpers are pretty obvious, though some weren't below requiring the user to do PC board surgery. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Oct 8 09:34:31 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) In-Reply-To: <199810080521.WAA17964@saul7.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Oct 7, 98 10:21:01 pm Message-ID: <199810081434.HAA16926@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4421 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981008/5d54c53b/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Oct 8 08:39:43 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... In-Reply-To: <361C40DC.BD394831@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Oct 8, 98 00:34:36 am Message-ID: <199810081339.GAA20514@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 680 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981008/ff5b5603/attachment.ksh From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Oct 8 09:49:43 1998 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Help: Identify my board In-Reply-To: References: <361C13D9.7AC@bright.net> Message-ID: <199810081449.KAA14673@quartz.netsync.net> At 21:35 10/07/98 -0700, George L. Rachor wrote: >Although not a classic Multibus board this board manufactured by Intel and >would fit in a Multibus slot. It does use the power pins from a >Multibus card slot. Beg to differ, George, but the board pictured in the URL given by Alan definitely is not Multibus! Others will also agree here who either used or have Multibus hardware in their collections like myself. I don't even recognize what the thing could possibly be. An Intel OEM controller of some sort? Relatively small quantity of chips so Alan could do like Tony D. or myself would do and trace the circuits and draw a schematic to get a better idea of function. Regards, Chris > >The model number escapes me for a moment but was still being manufactured >in 1994. Could you give us a bit more info from what you recall on this board George? > >========================================================= >George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com >Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > >On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, oajones wrote: > >> Can someone help identify this board? It has a 8085AH CPU in the A9 >> socket. On the right the board says "Intel (C) 1977 MADE IN USA." On the >> back of the circuit board is etched "PWB1001480-03 REV H." If you want >> to see what the board looks like click on my link below. >> >> http://www.bright.net/~oajones/myboard.jpg >> >> --Alan >> -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From ddameron at earthlink.net Thu Oct 8 09:55:31 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Question: Godbout/CompuPro ram boards Message-ID: <199810081455.HAA13940@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Hi Jim and all, At 10:50 PM 10/7/98 -0700, you wrote: >Can anyone confirm this vague memory, or set me straight? > >I seem to recall that one (or more) of the Godbout/CompuPro ram boards used >a 2kx8 static RAM part that had the same pinout as a 2716 EPROM, and could >support 2716s in place of some/all of the RAM chips. True or false? > >And if true, was there any special configuration that needed to be done for >the 2716s? > A 6116 is a 2kx8 static ram. The only difference in its pinout from a 2716 is pin 21. For the 6116 it is /write enable (active low). For the 2716 it is V(program). For read it is tied to 5V, it needs a higher voltage and current, up to 5mA, so just a TTL "1" isn't enough. Can you jumper this pin to +5 volts? -Dave From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Oct 8 10:32:26 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Help: Identify my board In-Reply-To: <199810081449.KAA14673@quartz.netsync.net> Message-ID: Although not a Multibus board I remember this card could be plugged into a multibus slot (just to draw power). I used to have a manual for this critter but didn't find it last night going through my manuals. I've got a retired Intel person chasing this down for me. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Christian Fandt wrote: > At 21:35 10/07/98 -0700, George L. Rachor wrote: > >Although not a classic Multibus board this board manufactured by Intel and > >would fit in a Multibus slot. It does use the power pins from a > >Multibus card slot. > > Beg to differ, George, but the board pictured in the URL given by Alan > definitely is not Multibus! Others will also agree here who either used or > have Multibus hardware in their collections like myself. > > I don't even recognize what the thing could possibly be. An Intel OEM > controller of some sort? Relatively small quantity of chips so Alan could > do like Tony D. or myself would do and trace the circuits and draw a > schematic to get a better idea of function. > > Regards, Chris > > > > >The model number escapes me for a moment but was still being manufactured > >in 1994. > > Could you give us a bit more info from what you recall on this board George? > > > > >========================================================= > >George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com > >Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > > > >On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, oajones wrote: > > > >> Can someone help identify this board? It has a 8085AH CPU in the A9 > >> socket. On the right the board says "Intel (C) 1977 MADE IN USA." On the > >> back of the circuit board is etched "PWB1001480-03 REV H." If you want > >> to see what the board looks like click on my link below. > >> > >> http://www.bright.net/~oajones/myboard.jpg > >> > >> --Alan > >> -- > > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian > Jamestown, NY USA > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ > From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu Oct 8 10:31:52 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Update - Aquarius Data Recorders In-Reply-To: <002401bdf2b4$5324d600$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> Message-ID: <199810081532.KAA26709@trailingedge.com> Ok, here is the deal. They have about 250 of these on about three pallets. They're going to let me know if I can buy just a single pallet or if I have to bid on the whole lot. I'm going to try and get these for everyone as cheaply as I can. Then everyone who has emailed me and said they want one or more gets them at the dirt price I end up paying for them + shipping cost. Any of those I have left over I'll offer up on usenet or maybe eBay. As I have to travel today and won't be back until the beginning of the week, I won't be able to complete any deals with them until I return. So if anyone else wants one email be by the beginning of the week and let me know. So far about 20 have been requested. BTW, they emailed me a picture of these in their warehouse. If anyone is really that interested let me know and I'll place it on my website for your viewing pleasure. :-) ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From marvin at rain.org Thu Oct 8 10:34:40 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems References: <6147b170.361c1ff5@aol.com> <19981008075036.29268.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <361CDB90.3467A0A6@rain.org> Eric Smith wrote: > > David wrote: > > call me crazy or whatever, but i used a paper clip to > > bypass the fuse and plugged the ac in and powered on for just a sec. i got a > > bit of smoke so i powered off and checkes. not finding the source, i did it > > again while watching. this time, something really smoked! > > OK, you're crazy or whatever. > > Don't *ever* short a fuse. The fuse is there for a reason, which is to *Ever* is a rather strong statement! I've been known to "short out" fuses in troubleshooting boards with a higher rating fuse than is called for for troubleshooting purposes, and yes, even short them out with a jumper wire (although granted very rarely!) One example was a shorted chip that for whatever reason, I didn't find with the VOM. Running it a short time with the fuse shorted out heated up the chip and I was able to feel where the problem was. Troubleshooting vs normal operation :). From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 8 11:25:16 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: AES computer with 8-inch disks? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981008112516.00c631b0@pc> Below is a description of a system with some data to be rescued. I've already responded to the people mentioned, so there's no need to respond again. I asked for more details, if they had any: when was it used, what software did it run, whether the disk is soft- or hard-sectored. I have no idea, though, what kind of system this was. Does "AES" ring a bell with any Canadian readers? - John >>Sent from: Gilles Poitras >> >>This is from a mailing list for theological librarians that I am on. >> >>Can anyone help out? >> >>>"Accelerating obsolescence" strikes again. >>> >>>Professor Dr Hans Rollmann, who supervises one of the more elegant and >>>elaborate sites on the WorldWideWeb for the Department of Religious Studies >>>at Memorial University in Newfoundland, has found some important primary >>>data that he hopes to mount with other texts on the site. These data are >>>imprisoned on 8-inch computer disks that were made on an AES computer, >>>apparently in the 1980s. No printed record of the material survives; only >>>the 8-inch disks remain. No AES computer or 8-inch drive exists at Memorial >>>University; the technical services people from the Computing Sciences >>>Department tried to build an 8-inch drive from spare parts, but came up >>>short. The intellectual content frozen in this "obsolete" technology >>>remains unreadable. >>> >>>Does anyone know the whereabouts of an intact AES computer? Failing that, >>>is there any available information about these machines? What did the >>>acronym AES stand for? Where was it built? Most important, what operating >>>system did it use? What word processing software might have been loaded? >>> >>>Has anyone preserved any computer with an 8-inch disk drive? As I recall, >>>both Commodore and Atari used 8-inch drives. >>> >>>Anyone who has useful information on this problem can communicate with >>>Professor Rollmann at >>> >>> hrollman@morgan.ucs.mun.ca >>> >>>Those who may be interested in his religious studies web site can begin >>>sifting through its many layers at >>> >>> http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~hrollman >>> >>>Professor Rollmann will be grateful for any assistance anyone can offer. >>>The rest of us need to be sure that any intellectual material we >>>"catalogue" can also be "read." From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 8 11:27:22 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems In-Reply-To: <361CDB90.3467A0A6@rain.org> References: <6147b170.361c1ff5@aol.com> <19981008075036.29268.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981008112722.00c4fd50@pc> At 08:34 AM 10/8/98 -0700, Marvin wrote: > Running it a short time with >the fuse shorted out heated up the chip and I was able to feel where the >problem was. Troubleshooting vs normal operation :). And sometimes when you do that, the dead chips will notify you of their new condition by blowing their tops. - John From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 8 11:29:17 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Help: Identify my board Message-ID: <199810081629.AA09573@world.std.com> < > Can someone help identify this board? It has a 8085AH CPU in the A9 < > socket. On the right the board says "Intel (C) 1977 MADE IN USA." On t < > back of the circuit board is etched "PWB1001480-03 REV H." If you wan < > to see what the board looks like click on my link below. Processor for a Intel model 220 development system is a good possibility. Unfortunately the copyright date on intel board has little to do with design and manufacture date. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 8 11:29:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810081629.AA09702@world.std.com> < > Micral, Mark-8, Scelbi 8H were the first wave. I don't know of any 40 < > micros other than the MCS-4, but I doubt it was especially cheap or wi < > available compared to some of the others, and compared especially to t < > computers that came before. < < Ok, I can add the Kenbak-1 to your list and it would be just as irreleva < as the three you just listed. You just named three computers that barel Ok then how about mords/modules manufactured and sold with 8008s on them like the Control Logic L series (there weren't the only ones) for use in industrial controls. Their cost was not that far off the mark when compared to an altair with 4k and a PIO. < We would have had microprocessor-based computers on our desktop today. < The trend was definitely heading in that direction. Intel merely was i < the right place at the right time. There still would have been a Lee < Felsenstein, a Steve Wozniak and a Ray Holt. And a slew of others. Altair was not a big bang, it was however a marker or milestone that had to happen if not to MITS then some one else. I would also contend that if at least two other vendors didn't jump on S100 in less than 6 months the Altair would be far more obscure. < I'm not saying it could have, I'm saying it WAS and IS. The F14 CADC < happened (independently and prior to the 4004). That is a fact. The < AMI7200 and AMI7300 happened. That is a fact. Several other < microprocessors from several other companies happened. That is a fact. < Even if Intel had never existed, we STILL would have had the microcomput < revolution of around 1975, and today we would have microprocessor-based < computers on our desks and in our pockets. To speculate otherwise woul < be absurd. The CADC itself was of little direct impact as we never saw it. The processing, design steps and process experience however were critical to whoever made them as they gained valuable foundry experience and could apply that to the next product. Also, since Ray Holt didn't do it alone there wer a slew of people that also gained experience they could apply to thing like calculator chips and maybe even the 4004. This makes it easier to create the next product and also possible to do it less expensively. < them. I don't have the Nina, the Pinta or the Santa Maria in my < collection, so Columbus never "discovered America". I don't have an Technically he didn't. He discoverd the Caribian islands. BUT, by not falling off the flat earth and finding something out there others would come and actually touch the Amrican contenents. < Apollo rocket in my collection, so America never made it to the moon. Still, it's possible to go and see one. FYI: the rocket was Saturn, the command module was known as Apollo . < You seem to have this idea that Intel deliberately acted to create the < microcomputer industry, that they had this grand master scheme that woul < culminate in the Altair 8800. This is simply not the case. Intel did < provide training and support to companies to use the 4004 in their < applications, but where is your evidence that they knew this would lead < cheap computers? Their advert in November 1971 electronic news. A quote: A micro-programable computer on a chip! Intel Introduced an integreated CPU complete with a 4-but parallel adder, sixteen 4-bit registers, an accumulator and a push down stack on one chip. It is one of a family of four new ICs which comprize the MCS-4 Micro computer system - the first system to bring you the power and flexibility of a dedicate general-purpose computer at low cost in as few as two dual in-line packages. Seems they were aimed squarely at the low cost market. They would introduce the 8008 and 8080 in the same ways. < The 4004 was just the first in the succession of many microprocessors fr < many manufacturers. Why did the Mark-8 and Scelbi 8H designers choose t < 8008? Who knows. What compelling evidence do you have that shows Inte < intended for the 8008 to end up in those computers? An equally importan < question is what computers did the other microprocessors being develope < at the time end up in? They had to have gone into something. Just < because you don't have those in your collection, does not mean they wer < not built. Likely for the same reson I used the 8008 the first time. Intel was visible and advertized. When I helped pick the 8008 in late '72 I could point to a working board (MCS-8) and docs to help us newbies. We used what we knew about and at 200$US each they weren't cheap at all but it was better than 200 pieces of TTL that had to be wired and tested. So the Mark-8 Etal had the precedence of visible advertizing, Docs and availability. An aside , the docs part was not lost on moto! You could get the 6800 cheap enough and for 25$ more you could get a thick volume of hardware and software knowlege that made using it easy. < What I'm trying to say is that this revolution would have happened with < without Intel, and assigning them all the credit for creating this < industry, or making it possible, or even influencing it is credit not < entirely deserved. What is missed and not mentioned is the small details. INTEL created the 4004 becuase they didn't want another fixed function calculator chip for only one vendor. This ment they could mass make it and sell to everyone with higher profit. The 4004 was significant as it had a hardware return address stack. There are things there that did seperate the micro computers that would result from the minicomputers that were before. < > importance of the 4004. LSI was just a means to an end: cheap compute < > How much did the F14's computer cost, BTW? < < I want to say less than $100 per computer but I think it was actually le < than $100 per chip. Still, that would put it at $600 at the most for th < whole system (6 chips total in the F14 CADC). Some perspective... in mil spec design, construction and testing made it likely several thousand $$$. Even if it were 10k$ per it was cheap compared to available processors of the time and none fit in that form factor. Also the 4004 was *relatively* cheap but the amortized development cost were still significant and have to be include to be fair. < > 4004 was the Big Bang; that the dust from that explosion still bears t < > Intel imprint is interesting, but that's a different topic. < < And I am still arguing that the 4004 was NOT the big bang. I don't wan < to put my thumb (at this point) on which Intel product it was. But it m < not in fact even be an Intel product. It very well may be a combinatio < of products from multiple vendors. I haven't seen any conclusive < arguments to support the 4004 as being the big bang that started the < microcomputer revolution. It was a pop, just like the CADC was a pop. I'd say there is some reality there. The big bangs were those that would hit the media and cause ripples down the line. Using that line of thought... the CPU chip was not the big bang but the catalyst for the explosion. IE: Altair was not significant due to the 8080 but that it was first of class and more importantly COPIED. Name one other machine/bus before ALTAIR that would be copied widely and competitively within one year of introduction!?! I will add that I doubt Intel saw it as a serious opportunity to sell chips until after the Pop'tronics cover hit the stands. Reason it would be little while before the hobby (we were called that) market would be taken seriously and semiconductor vendors would see the potential of the early edge of the personal computer/ small desktop computer industry. That got DEC, IBM and DGs attention though none were sure of what to make of it. The fact of it was by 1978 there was no question that there wer more microcomputers (or various types) than all of IBM, DEC and DGs output to date! It was the Volkswagons of the computer industry. Tin Lizzie, Ha! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 8 11:29:32 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... Message-ID: <199810081629.AA09907@world.std.com> < It looks like the only characteristic that a multi-chip implementation < partially breaks here is "highly integrated". Then again, a two-chip < implementation is not necessarily much less integrated than a single-chi < Now I wonder why this level of integration matters. Is there something < that a two-chip implementation can't do, and a single-chip can? Did < people really care about this level of space-savings to the extent that < it was worth introducing a new word into the language? The key is the limits of IC gate density of the moment. Now we can have lterally millions so complexity is very high. Back when (1970-71) teh semi houses were hitting the ceiling at about 1000 gates/2500 raw devices to a chunk of silicon. So splitting a function across two chips was not unresonable idea. It's was a reflection of *manufacturability*. < Actually, until ten minutes ago, I would have had trouble calling the < two-chip thing a microprocessor because it broke the definition I learne < as a kid: single-chip. But even the characteristic of being similar to < 4004 is relevant to the extent that you are careful in choosing which wa < it has to be similar. The first 4004's were probably in ceramic; shoul < that be part of the definition? Probably not. Why did we care about th < 4004? Is being implemented on a single chip really the important bit? < was it cost, ease of use, small size, ...? A two-chip implementation < could very well have been important to us for exactly the same reasons < that the 4004 was. The 4004 was significant at several levels. It was relatively low cost commercial product. It had a return address stack. It had a fairly large number of registers (for that time it was a very large number). There were other chips to facilitate low cost construction of dedicated systems. Being few is packages and low in numbers of pins made PCboard consturction cheap. the PMOS process used was low power compared to TTL or DTL of the time. Each one of those elements were significant relative to computer systems of the day regrdless of the type! < So, when is it useful to distinguish single-chip from, say, dual-chip? When talking at the archetecture level or when interfacing. < What kind of practical decision would someone make based on that? COST, number of pins, flexibility. The LSI-11 for example was the WD13 chip set, with differnt MICROMS it was the Alpha Micro or the WD microengine. Same chips some containing differnt microcode. If you have a LSI-11 and the rare but manufacured WCS you could acutally add instructions to your LSI-11 to suit specialized needs. This is not doable with most single chip implmentations. < BTW, was the 4004 really the first in the Intel series of 4004, 4040, < 8008, and 8080? I seem to remember that something in this sequence < actually happened in non-ascending order, like maybe the 8008 preceded < the 4004, or the 4040 came out last, or ...? It could make sense; you < could imagine scaling back an existing design to penetrate some niche < market with a cheaper part. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 8 11:29:39 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Question: Godbout/CompuPro ram boards Message-ID: <199810081629.AA10065@world.std.com> < I seem to recall that one (or more) of the Godbout/CompuPro ram boards u < a 2kx8 static RAM part that had the same pinout as a 2716 EPROM, and cou < support 2716s in place of some/all of the RAM chips. True or false? Ram16 and RAM17 both used 6116 2kx8 but neither were configurable for 2716 Eproms. It can be done but it would be a hack. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 8 11:29:46 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Heathkit H8 vs. H-89 Message-ID: <199810081629.AA10185@world.std.com> < seems though, everybody wrote assembler code so that either the s/w chec < to see which processor was used or wrote straight 8080 asm code to just < cover everybody without having the extra CPU checking code taking up spa < Most commercial language interpreters and compilers, especially from Hea < handled 8080-based machines for sure. Generally true but, not absolutley so.. however some bios used Z80 code to do disk io or used 8080 code tricks that do not run on z80. Come from having aboth an 8085 powered s100 (explorer 8085) and a slew of z80 systems. < Allison, for the H8 there were at least two third-party Z80 CPU boards m < (I can look up the mfgrs if anybody wants) and a Heath-made Z80 board. I'm well aware of them and helped several friends bring them up. < Early on when the Z80 became rather popular, the original 8080 CPU boar < was of course found to be lacking in performance compared to the TRS-80' < N*, Kaypros, various S100's and other contemporary CP/M Z80 machines. < Hence, the little cottage industry, so to speak, which sprang up to dea < with making Z80 boards. A 4 MHz CPU by DG Micro (I think that's the name I went to z80 in early 1977 as the 8080 already had a case of impending doom being limited to 2mhz and fewer instructions. The better instruction set of the z80 was enough in itself. < really was a performer up against many other machines. The H-89 was a Z8 < machine when it first was introduced around 1980 or thereabouts. Yes, h89 was mid 1980, by then the z80 had permutated the software for cpm systems. Consider that S100 system ahd all pretty much gone z80 by 1978 and the few non z80 systems were either dual processsor like Compupro 8/16 or oddball the Autocontrol AC85 (8085/5mhz). The ZCPR CCP replacement and widespread use of z80s made for major software like languages to be 8080 compatable at the expense of performance while the system would have a bios written using z80 extended. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 8 11:29:52 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too Message-ID: <199810081629.AA10315@world.std.com> Earlier I poionted out that RT-11 has a hobby license... after rereading the License it's clear that's not the case it's only available free for the Supnik Emulator. This doesn't help most people. Now, the problem is for those people that have an -11 and want to use it somehow what is there in the way of OSs? RT-11 legal restrictions exist... RSX-11 No idea, but I'd expect licensing again RSTS Licensing again? Unix... AVAILABLE via PUPs support group as free binaries and 100$ license for sources. Initially this seems good but not all PDP-11 configurations can run unix and not all versions of Unix have the drivers to interact with some PDP-11 hardware. So it may take a lot of work with limited tools or none to get it going. Xenix, available free as binaries for the PRO... Canned version OF V6 by appearance and if you have other than an RD51 it doesn't work. So what else is there that is free (or very low cost) and can be run on most of the LSI-11, PDP-11/23 or 11/73 series? IE: can be run on a 11/03 with RX01 floppy or a 11/73 with RQDX3 MSCP disks (hard disks). There is fuzzball but I know far to little about it or it's applicability to various hardware configs. Allison From wanderer at bos.nl Thu Oct 8 13:32:22 1998 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: eBay strangeness Message-ID: <361D0536.3639@bos.nl> >> Am wondering if it is me or if everyone is experiencing this? Someone has listed an Altair 4k memory board. The eBay item number is 34468468. Whenever I go to this listing, my computer locks up. It has happened every time I have tried since earlier in the day. Only happens with this listing and no others. It seems to happen as soon as eBay starts to download the photo from the seller's web site. I have never experienced this with any other eBay auction. Bob Wood << Hmm, I went to that item and out of the 5 pictures, only the last one did not get loaded for some reason. The pics do look very good however. Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | zakkenvullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From dburrows at netpath.net Thu Oct 8 11:42:39 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems Message-ID: <037d01bdf2da$c4b46170$a60b0b0b@p166> One method that I have used for years with equipment that blows fuses is to put a light bulb in line with the incoming power. Depending on the actual correct load of the equipment determines the wattage of the bulb needed. On normal operation the bulb will light to about 1/4 to 1/2 of normal then dim. (typical inrush - charging caps.) If the bulb lights near fully it is taking the load instead of blowing the fuse. At this time you can use a meter and find the defective component. Usual caution applies the equipment is floating if the bulb is in line with neutral. Dan Burrows dburrows@netpath.net -----Original Message----- From: John Foust To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 08, 1998 12:30 PM Subject: Re: Apple power supply problems >At 08:34 AM 10/8/98 -0700, Marvin wrote: >> Running it a short time with >>the fuse shorted out heated up the chip and I was able to feel where the >>problem was. Troubleshooting vs normal operation :). > >And sometimes when you do that, the dead chips will notify you >of their new condition by blowing their tops. > >- John From william at ans.net Thu Oct 8 11:47:58 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... In-Reply-To: <199810081629.AA09907@world.std.com> Message-ID: > The key is the limits of IC gate density of the moment. Now we can have > lterally millions so complexity is very high. Back when (1970-71) teh > semi houses were hitting the ceiling at about 1000 gates/2500 raw devices > to a chunk of silicon. So splitting a function across two chips was not > unresonable idea. It's was a reflection of *manufacturability*. This is still very true. The fastest processors out today are multi-chip ones. William Donzelli william@ans.net From cad at gamewood.net Thu Oct 8 11:45:54 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems References: <6147b170.361c1ff5@aol.com> <19981008075036.29268.qmail@brouhaha.com> <3.0.1.32.19981008112722.00c4fd50@pc> Message-ID: <361CEC42.40F5@gamewood.net> John Foust wrote: > > At 08:34 AM 10/8/98 -0700, Marvin wrote: > > Running it a short time with > >the fuse shorted out heated up the chip and I was able to feel where the > >problem was. Troubleshooting vs normal operation :). > > And sometimes when you do that, the dead chips will notify you > of their new condition by blowing their tops. > > - John That is also a sometimmes useful method of finding where the problem resides. Chuck From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu Oct 8 12:07:24 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Update 2 - Aquarius Data Recorders In-Reply-To: <199810081532.KAA26709@trailingedge.com> References: <002401bdf2b4$5324d600$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> Message-ID: <199810081707.MAA27382@trailingedge.com> I just received more info on the Data Recorders... they had a "mis- communication", there are 3 pallets of 240 recorders each! 720 recorders total!!! They have agreed to let the pallets go separately. I'd like to know where they came up with these. Anyway, I guess I'll make them an offer on one pallet, I can't save them all. I guess the other 480 of them will hit the scrapers. Then I just have to figure out what to do with the remaining 220 recorders that haven't been claimed yet. I can see it now... Quick! Get your EXTREMELY RARE, IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND Aquarius Data Recorder. No collector can live without one or three or more! MINT CONDITION IN ORIGINAL BOX!! Opening bid only $500. Move fast because I have to run 200 more auctions just like this one. ;-) ;-) ;-) ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From Marty at itgonline.com Thu Oct 8 12:10:39 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: What was the first Unix micro? Message-ID: <1998Oct08.130947.1767.145883@smtp.itgonline.com> I second your opinion Sam. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: What was the first Unix micro? Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/7/98 11:42 PM On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > OK, I'm getting tired of the arguments about who made the first > microprocessor. Fine. Maybe God did -- it's called DNA and as an > atheist I don't grant credit to anybody. Oh, ok. God forbid we discuss computer history on this list, Ward. We'll just go away now so you can fill up the list with your pointless one-line replies. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct07.234233.1767.68426; Wed, 07 Oct 1998 23:42:34 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id UAA08061; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:40:21 -0700 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id UAA29970 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:40:16 -0700 Received: from mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (mailhub2.ncal.verio.com [204.247.247.54]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id UAA13 302 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:40:15 -0700 Received: from shell1.ncal.verio.com (dastar@shell1.ncal.verio.com [204.247.248.254]) by mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03164 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Sam Ismail To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: What was the first Unix micro? In-Reply-To: <361C2218.3E448C98@cnct.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Oct 8 12:18:32 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Help: Identify my board In-Reply-To: <199810081629.AA09573@world.std.com> Message-ID: Your looking at an SBC 80/04 board manufactured by Intel through about 1985. Power could be obtained by plugging the board's two connectors into the P1 slot. Again this was not a multibus board but could be plugged into a Multibus P1 connector. George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > < > Can someone help identify this board? It has a 8085AH CPU in the A9 > < > socket. On the right the board says "Intel (C) 1977 MADE IN USA." On t > < > back of the circuit board is etched "PWB1001480-03 REV H." If you wan > < > to see what the board looks like click on my link below. > > Processor for a Intel model 220 development system is a good possibility. > > Unfortunately the copyright date on intel board has little to do with > design and manufacture date. > > Allison > > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 8 12:23:20 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Update 2 - Aquarius Data Recorders Message-ID: <199810081723.AA12939@world.std.com> < the other 480 of them will hit the scrapers. Then I just have to < figure out what to do with the remaining 220 recorders that haven't < been claimed yet. Are these basically portable audio recroders or something special? Please describe them. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 8 12:23:32 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems Message-ID: <199810081723.AA13085@world.std.com> < One method that I have used for years with equipment that blows fuses is < put a light bulb in line with the incoming power. Depending on the actu < correct load of the equipment determines the wattage of the bulb needed. < normal operation the bulb will light to about 1/4 to 1/2 of normal then < (typical inrush - charging caps.) If the bulb lights near fully it is This is a safe and sane method that generally results in less likelyhood of damage or injury. Some parts if "forced" may explode violently with the risk of injury or colateral damage like burnt boards. I sometime used a 110v lamp in socket with clipleads to bridge the fuse. Allison From aaron at wfi-inc.com Thu Oct 8 12:26:16 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Thrift-store goodies Message-ID: Light haul at the thrifts today, but a couple of nifties: "Computer Technicians Handbook, 3rd Edition" by Art Margolis - $0.95 Magnavox RGB 80 composite monitor - $4.95 Wyse 60, no keyboard - $4.95 Large PC board etching kit, unopened - $1.95 Aaron From Marty at itgonline.com Thu Oct 8 12:29:23 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Update 2 - Aquarius Data Recorders Message-ID: <1998Oct08.132841.1767.145895@smtp.itgonline.com> ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Update 2 - Aquarius Data Recorders Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/8/98 1:10 PM I just received more info on the Data Recorders... they had a "mis- communication", there are 3 pallets of 240 recorders each! 720 recorders total!!! They have agreed to let the pallets go separately. I'd like to know where they came up with these. Anyway, I guess I'll make them an offer on one pallet, I can't save them all. I guess the other 480 of them will hit the scrapers. Then I just have to figure out what to do with the remaining 220 recorders that haven't been claimed yet. >I can see it now... >Quick! Get your EXTREMELY RARE, IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND >Aquarius Data Recorder. No collector can live without one or three >or more! MINT CONDITION IN ORIGINAL BOX!! Opening bid only >$500. Move fast because I have to run 200 more auctions just like >this one. ;-) ;-) ;-) You forgot to include L@@K!!!! or maybe GASP!!! Marty ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct08.131012.1767.68580; Thu, 08 Oct 1998 13:10:13 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id KAA04272; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:07:39 -0700 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id KAA60200 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:07:35 -0700 Received: from trailingedge.com (IDENT:root@trailingedge.com [208.150.226.125]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id KAA00 205 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:07:34 -0700 Received: from lovelyangel.advfilms.com (lovelyangel.advfilms.com [208.150.226.79]) by trailingedge.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27382 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:07:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199810081707.MAA27382@trailingedge.com> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:07:24 -0500 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: "David Williams" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Update 2 - Aquarius Data Recorders In-Reply-To: <199810081532.KAA26709@trailingedge.com> References: <002401bdf2b4$5324d600$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu Oct 8 12:44:31 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Update 2 - Aquarius Data Recorders In-Reply-To: <199810081723.AA12939@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810081744.MAA27507@trailingedge.com> On 8 Oct 98, at 13:23, Allison J Parent wrote: > Are these basically portable audio recroders or something special? > > Please describe them. > > Allison These are the cassette recorders which were produced to use with the Mattel/Radofin Aquarius computer. Unlike the others I've found, these are new in box. I don't recall if you can do graphics or not Allison but there is a picture of one on my website on the Aquarius page. It's the box to the right of the system. http://www.trailingedge.com/~dlw/comp/template?mattelaquarius ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu Oct 8 12:54:34 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Update 2 - Aquarius Data Recorders In-Reply-To: <1998Oct08.132841.1767.145895@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <199810081754.MAA27541@trailingedge.com> On 8 Oct 98, at 13:29, Marty wrote: > ;-) ;-) You forgot to include L@@K!!!! or maybe GASP!!! > > Marty Just goes to show what a novice I am at all this. :-) ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From Joel at VirtualAdmin.com Thu Oct 8 12:49:50 1998 From: Joel at VirtualAdmin.com (Joel Fedorko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: What was the first Unix micro? Message-ID: I was told about 20 years ago that it was Western Electric. They were the 2nd largest manufacturer of PDP-11 next to DEC and produced them under license for their "customer" AT&T. -----Original Message----- From: Ward Donald Griffiths III [mailto:gram@cnct.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 10:23 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: What was the first Unix micro? OK, I'm getting tired of the arguments about who made the first microprocessor. Fine. Maybe God did -- it's called DNA and as an atheist I don't grant credit to anybody. Trivia question: who made the first successful mass-produced _and_ mass-marketed (in one system) Unix hardware platform? -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From wanderer at bos.nl Thu Oct 8 15:25:35 1998 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Update 2 - Aquarius Data Recorders Message-ID: <361D1FBF.3A75@bos.nl> What kind of recorder is this? I have never seen one. Can someone tell me more about it? Thanks, Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | zakkenvullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 8 14:01:14 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems In-Reply-To: <361CEC42.40F5@gamewood.net> References: <6147b170.361c1ff5@aol.com> <19981008075036.29268.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981008140114.00cc0ea0@pc> At 12:45 PM 10/8/98 -0400, Charles A Davis wrote: >> >> And sometimes when you do that, the dead chips will notify you >> of their new condition by blowing their tops. > >That is also a sometimmes useful method of finding where the problem >resides. Sounds like a "space between the ears" problem with the technician, if they expect that to be a useful way of diagnosing the problem. You are correct: a blown chip tells you where a problem now resides. It tells you nothing about where the problem *was* before you shorted the fuse. It was, after all, a *circuit*, meaning one thing is connected to the next, and all you discovered is which component will blow up / heat up / char along the way. - John From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Oct 8 14:34:35 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: What was the first Unix micro? Message-ID: <36554511.361d13cb@aol.com> i third it In a message dated 98-10-08 13:10:59 EDT, you write: << I second your opinion Sam. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: What was the first Unix micro? Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/7/98 11:42 PM On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > OK, I'm getting tired of the arguments about who made the first > microprocessor. Fine. Maybe God did -- it's called DNA and as an > atheist I don't grant credit to anybody. Oh, ok. God forbid we discuss computer history on this list, Ward. We'll just go away now so you can fill up the list with your pointless one-line replies. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] >> From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 8 14:35:07 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: World Power Systems scam Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981008143507.03086d80@pc> Does anyone recall the month and year the "World Power Systems" scam advertisement appeared in (was it?) Byte? - John From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Oct 8 14:51:50 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Just when you thought eBay couldn't get more ridiculous Message-ID: Just when you thought eBay couldn't get more ridiculous... Two Rockwell AIM-65's (auctioned simultaneously, ending within minutes of each other, by different sellers, weird) just sold for $406 and $472 respectively (I'll give you 3 guesses to name one of the bidders...) Kai From yowza at yowza.com Thu Oct 8 14:56:33 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: What was the first Unix micro? In-Reply-To: <36554511.361d13cb@aol.com> Message-ID: OK, if we can get one more, I think we'll have a lynch mob! Personally, I'm considering giving up computer collecting and collecting Ward's one-liners instead. Trivia Q: On which date did Ward offer his first politically incorrect one-liner to the list? (I don't know the answer, but I'll run back to the archives to start my collection once I know.) -- Doug On Thu, 8 Oct 1998 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > i third it > > In a message dated 98-10-08 13:10:59 EDT, you write: > > << I second your opinion Sam. > > Marty > > > > ______________________________ Reply Separator > _________________________________ > Subject: Re: What was the first Unix micro? > Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet > Date: 10/7/98 11:42 PM > > > On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > > OK, I'm getting tired of the arguments about who made the first > > microprocessor. Fine. Maybe God did -- it's called DNA and as an > > atheist I don't grant credit to anybody. > > Oh, ok. God forbid we discuss computer history on this list, Ward. We'll > just go away now so you can fill up the list with your pointless one-line > replies. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: > dastar@siconic.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > >> > From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Oct 8 15:07:19 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: Amusing: January 1993 Sun Remarketing Catalog Message-ID: The other day I was disassembling a Lisa, and inside between the RAM boards there was a copy of the January 1993 Sun Remarketing Catalog. Here are some fun tidbits from the catalog. Anyone care to call Sun and try to order one of these part numbers? Rumor has it that Sun has a whole warehouse full of Lisa stuff that they just aren't motivated to sell. APPLE LISA Originally designed as a versatile business computer, the Lisa is more powerful than ever before. We've added new features that make it better than a Mac Plus... 800K floppy drive, 20 Mb or 40 Mb SCSI hard drive, and MacWorks Plus. LISA CPU OPTIONS - 20Mb SCSI System, $495 100-283 - 40Mb SCSI System, $545 100-481 - Macintosh XL 400K/10Mb, $395 101-140 - Macintosh XL/400K No HD, $295 101-142 - Macintosh XL/800K System, $595 101-181 - Lisa/400K Floppy System, $295 100-141 LISA ACCESSORIES - 800K internal disk drive, $159 500-800 - 2Mb RAM Upgrade, $195 200-120 - Lisa SCSI Card, $79 200-300 - Lisa SCSI Drive 20Mb, $195 501-201 - Lisa SCSI Drive 40Mb, $295 501-401 - MacWorks Plus SC, $99 402-107 - MacWorks Plus 400K, $99 402-200 - MacWorks Plus 800K, $99 402-108 LISA/MACINTOSH XL DO-IT-YOURSELF GUIDE Complete with Test Diskette The Lisa/Macintosh XL Do-It-Yourself Guide is a must for any Lisa/XL owner. The included diagnostic diskette will determine any problems that might arise be it hardware or software. If a hardware problem occurs, simply order a replacement module for the defective part and avoid costly repair bills. This manual also covers any adjustments or repairs you can make yourself. Regular Version $19 402-232 Screen Mod Version $19 402-231 Some other Sun tidbits from the catalog: MACINTOSH 128K, $195 MACINTOSH 512K, $249 MAC PORTABLE 2/40, $895 APPLE ///, $345 From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 8 16:30:36 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:14 2005 Subject: kits, definitions, prices... In-Reply-To: <199810080935.LAA02850@marina.fth.sbs.de> (franke@sbs.de) References: <199810080935.LAA02850@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <19981008213036.396.qmail@brouhaha.com> > > Wanna buy a 1200 baud modem? > No, I'm still fine with my 300 coupler 300? What unnecessary and wasteful luxury. My 110 baud acoustic coupled modem is perfectly adequate with my ASR-33. :-) Well, it used to be. Unfortunately I gave away the ASR-33 ten years ago, and now I really regret it. At least I have a few DECwriter IIs left. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 8 16:52:27 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) In-Reply-To: <199810081434.HAA16926@oa.ptloma.edu> (message from Cameron Kaiser on Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:34:31 -0700 (PDT)) References: <199810081434.HAA16926@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <19981008215227.508.qmail@brouhaha.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote about undefined 6502 opcodes: > Consider LAX zero page mode, one of the best known undocumenteds. > > $A5 LDA $zp > 10100101 > > $A6 LDX $zp > 10100110 > > --> logical OR: 1010111 ($A7) --> LAX $zp > > Interestingly, there's no immediate mode: > > $A9 LDA #imm > 10101001 > > $A2 LDX #imm > 10100010 > > --> logical OR: $10101011 -> $AB expected opcode, doesn't work. Well, of course that one won't work. You obviously can't just OR any two opcodes together and expect it to work. If you study the way they are arranged, you will see there are no defined instructions of the form XXXXXX11. However, many of these opcodes perform (or attempt to perform) both of the functions of the corresponding instructions XXXXXX01 and XXXXXX10. So $AB would be expected to perform a function that is a composite of $A9 and $AA, not $A9 and $A2. Since the control logic doesn't really expect to be used this way, some of these combinations do something sensible and others don't. Best results occur when the XXXXXX01 and XXXXXX10 instructions use the same addressing mode. > The most interesting and catastrophic instruction is DIE, which hangs the > CPU irrevocably (something like $F00FC7C8 on a Pentium, I guess :-): $02, > $12, $22, $32, $42, $52, $62, $72, $92, $B2, $D2 and $F2, but not $82, $A2, > $C2 or $E2. The instruction's position in the set suggests it's a two byte > instruction that doesn't properly advance the PC, so the CPU is caught in an > infinite loop. I fail to see how $x2 instructions are expected not to advance the PC. A logic analyzer reveals that these instructions take an immediate operand of infinite length. They start reading consecutive bytes from the address after the PC, and don't stop until reset is pressed. This function is intended for manufacturing test, and is more commonly known an HCF (Halt and Catch Fire). A few years ago there was a flame war on alt.folklore.computers where moron was trying to convince everyone that if you left the 6502 running this instruction, your CPU would literally heat up to the point of damage and potentially causing an actual fire. Since you can actually run a 6502 in this state for days on end without an abnormal heating of the chip, I assume that this claim was a little-known urban legend (or urban legend wannabe) that someone based on a too literal interpretation of the unofficial 'HCF' name. > One useful thing is that the undocumented opcodes seem to activate silicon > sections simultaneously, i.e., they take no additional cycles to do their > additional jobs. Primitive multitasking? ;-) With the possible exception of undocumented instructions for manufacturing test, like HCF, the way these come about is due to the logic minimization of the control logic. If they don't care what function an undefined opcode performs, they can simplify the logic equations for the documented functions. This is nothing new to microprocessors; many mainframes and minicomputers had undefined opcodes which customers experimented with. As with the microprocessors, there was never any guarantee that the undefined opcodes on any two otherwise equivalent machines would peform identically. With microprocessors, though, there tend to be fewer design changes made after introduction than there were for mainframes. AFAIK, all NMOS 6502 CPUs have the same behavior for all undocumented instructions. Some of the NMOS deriviatives have different behavior though. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 8 17:07:16 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems In-Reply-To: <361CDB90.3467A0A6@rain.org> (message from Marvin on Thu, 08 Oct 1998 08:34:40 -0700) References: <6147b170.361c1ff5@aol.com> <19981008075036.29268.qmail@brouhaha.com> <361CDB90.3467A0A6@rain.org> Message-ID: <19981008220716.601.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Don't *ever* short a fuse. The fuse is there for a reason, which is to > protect the expensive components. Marvin replied: > *Ever* is a rather strong statement! I've been known to "short out" fuses > in troubleshooting boards with a higher rating fuse than is called for for > troubleshooting purposes, and yes, even short them out with a jumper wire > (although granted very rarely!) One example was a shorted chip that for > whatever reason, I didn't find with the VOM. Running it a short time with > the fuse shorted out heated up the chip and I was able to feel where the > problem was. Troubleshooting vs normal operation :). Not so bad if it was something common and easily replaceable. But how would you have felt if the problem had turned out to be a $0.05 shorted passive compenent which caused then caused the failure of a rare or exepnsive chip? Remember, the fuse isn't to protect the component that failed and caused the problem, it's to protect the rest of the components that are still OK (*). IMNSHO, it is almost criminally negligent to suggest shorting a fuse to anyone as a troubleshooting technique. There are several proper ways to diagnose problems like the one that you describe; typical is to use a current-limited lab power supply to operate the board at a lower than normal DC voltage and determine where the current is going. For AC equipment the equivlanent is to use a Variac (but remember that a Variac does not provide isolation, so you may need an isolation transformer as well). If you know there is a short on a board in a certain signal, but not where the short is physically located, a current tracer is quite an effective troubleshooting tool. I had to fix a board with a solder bridge on the component side of a board under a socket, and visual inspection didn't reveal which socket. Rather than removing all eight candidates (or as many as it took to visually spot the short), I was able to pinpoint it with a current tracer. I realize that not everyone owns lab supplies, Variacs, and current tracers. However, I would point out that not everyone should be troubleshooting faults in electronic equipment, either. Eric (*) The main purpose of fuses in consumer gear is actually simply to prevent the equipment from overheating and bursting into flames, or causing something else to burst into flames, or burning the user. But if that serves to protect valuable components as well, why should you voluntarily give up that protection? From apulo at joyce.eng.yale.edu Thu Oct 8 17:23:41 1998 From: apulo at joyce.eng.yale.edu (Tony Dellett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Update 2 - Aquarius Data Recorders In-Reply-To: <1998Oct08.132841.1767.145895@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: I just got myself an Aquarius, I could use a data recorder. Tony On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Marty wrote: > Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 13:29:23 -0400 > From: Marty > Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Update 2 - Aquarius Data Recorders > > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ > Subject: Update 2 - Aquarius Data Recorders > Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet > Date: 10/8/98 1:10 PM > > > I just received more info on the Data Recorders... they had a "mis- > communication", there are 3 pallets of 240 recorders each! 720 > recorders total!!! They have agreed to let the pallets go separately. > I'd like to know where they came up with these. Anyway, I guess > I'll make them an offer on one pallet, I can't save them all. I guess > the other 480 of them will hit the scrapers. Then I just have to > figure out what to do with the remaining 220 recorders that haven't > been claimed yet. > > >I can see it now... > > >Quick! Get your EXTREMELY RARE, IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND > >Aquarius Data Recorder. No collector can live without one or three > >or more! MINT CONDITION IN ORIGINAL BOX!! Opening bid only > >$500. Move fast because I have to run 200 more auctions just like > >this one. ;-) ;-) ;-) > You forgot to include L@@K!!!! or maybe GASP!!! > > Marty > > > ----- > David Williams - Computer Packrat > dlw@trailingedge.com > http://www.trailingedge.com > > ------ Message Header Follows ------ > Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com > (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) > id AA-1998Oct08.131012.1767.68580; Thu, 08 Oct 1998 13:10:13 -0400 > Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) > by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP > id KAA04272; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:07:39 -0700 > Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) > by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP > id KAA60200 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 > 10:07:35 -0700 > Received: from trailingedge.com (IDENT:root@trailingedge.com > [208.150.226.125]) > > by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id KAA00 > 205 > for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:07:34 -0700 > Received: from lovelyangel.advfilms.com (lovelyangel.advfilms.com > [208.150.226.79]) > by trailingedge.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27382 > for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:07:36 -0500 > Message-Id: <199810081707.MAA27382@trailingedge.com> > Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:07:24 -0500 > Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > Precedence: bulk > From: "David Williams" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > > Subject: Update 2 - Aquarius Data Recorders > In-Reply-To: <199810081532.KAA26709@trailingedge.com> > References: <002401bdf2b4$5324d600$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 8 17:25:59 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: World Power Systems scam In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981008143507.03086d80@pc> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, John Foust wrote: > Does anyone recall the month and year the "World Power Systems" > scam advertisement appeared in (was it?) Byte? What was the nature of this scam? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Oct 8 18:16:17 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: eBay strangeness In-Reply-To: <19981008052908.13287.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981008181617.489f4a54@intellistar.net> Bob, I was able to load it OK. Your computer probably isn't really locked up only busy trying to load the picture attached to the ad. The server that the picture is on is SSSLLLOOOOWWWWW! I typed this entire reply and I'm still waiting for the picture to finish loading. I have the same problem with a lot of the E-overPay auctions. Joe At 10:29 PM 10/7/98 PDT, you wrote: >Am wondering if it is me or if everyone is experiencing this? > >Someone has listed an Altair 4k memory board. The >eBay item number is 34468468. Whenever I go to this >listing, my computer locks up. It has happened every >time I have tried since earlier in the day. Only happens >with this listing and no others. >It seems to happen as soon as eBay starts to download the >photo from the seller's web site. I have never experienced >this with any other eBay auction. > >Bob Wood > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From oajones at bright.net Thu Oct 8 17:33:27 1998 From: oajones at bright.net (oajones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Help: Identify my board References: Message-ID: <361D3DB7.4A02@bright.net> George Rachor wrote: > > Although not a Multibus board I remember this card could be plugged into a > multibus slot (just to draw power). I used to have a manual for this > critter but didn't find it last night going through my manuals. I've got > a retired Intel person chasing this down for me. > > George > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > > On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Christian Fandt wrote: > > > At 21:35 10/07/98 -0700, George L. Rachor wrote: > > >Although not a classic Multibus board this board manufactured by Intel and > > >would fit in a Multibus slot. It does use the power pins from a > > >Multibus card slot. > > > > Beg to differ, George, but the board pictured in the URL given by Alan > > definitely is not Multibus! Others will also agree here who either used or > > have Multibus hardware in their collections like myself. > > > > I don't even recognize what the thing could possibly be. An Intel OEM > > controller of some sort? Relatively small quantity of chips so Alan could > > do like Tony D. or myself would do and trace the circuits and draw a > > schematic to get a better idea of function. > > > > Regards, Chris > > > > > > > >The model number escapes me for a moment but was still being manufactured > > >in 1994. > > > > Could you give us a bit more info from what you recall on this board George? > > > > > > > >========================================================= > > >George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com > > >Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > > > > > >On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, oajones wrote: > > > > > >> Can someone help identify this board? It has a 8085AH CPU in the A9 > > >> socket. On the right the board says "Intel (C) 1977 MADE IN USA." On the > > >> back of the circuit board is etched "PWB1001480-03 REV H." If you want > > >> to see what the board looks like click on my link below. > > >> > > >> http://www.bright.net/~oajones/myboard.jpg > > >> > > >> --Alan > > >> -- > > > > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian > > Jamestown, NY USA > > Member of Antique Wireless Association > > URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ > > George, I appreciate your help in identifying the board. Thanks! --Alan -- Computing since: 1982, VIC-20, CoCo, PC, CP/M Military Computers: COMTRAN 10, Nida 250 Amateur Radio since: 1971, WN8JEF, KA6EXR, N8BGR, AA4ZI BASIC, dBASE, Assembly, C++ mailto: oajones@bright.net From red at bears.org Thu Oct 8 17:35:34 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) In-Reply-To: <19981008215227.508.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 8 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > This function is intended for manufacturing test, and is more commonly known > an HCF (Halt and Catch Fire). A few years ago there was a flame war on > alt.folklore.computers where moron was trying to convince everyone that if > you left the 6502 running this instruction, your CPU would literally heat Does anybody know what system is referenced in the Jargon File under HCF as the one that could burn up its bus lines if the processor were given the HCF instruction? ok r. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 8 12:36:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: VT55 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981007195533.00c27bd0@pc> from "John Foust" at Oct 7, 98 07:55:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1266 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981008/bdf2bc77/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 8 12:42:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems In-Reply-To: <6147b170.361c1ff5@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Oct 7, 98 10:14:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1986 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981008/95da3254/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 8 12:42:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Latets finds In-Reply-To: <199810080216.AA13594@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Oct 7, 98 10:16:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 122 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981008/5072d308/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 8 12:45:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Heathkit H8 vs. H-89 In-Reply-To: <199810080320.AA02714@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 7, 98 11:20:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 802 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981008/c6db01a0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 8 12:47:57 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 (was Re: Convergent Technologies workSlate) In-Reply-To: <361C3AC3.1219CA46@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Oct 8, 98 00:08:35 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 450 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981008/4d9f766f/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Oct 8 17:38:00 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: World Power Systems scam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, John Foust wrote: > > > Does anyone recall the month and year the "World Power Systems" > > scam advertisement appeared in (was it?) Byte? > > What was the nature of this scam? Oh, this one was a goodie! A series of splashy, full color ads for a line of really cool sounding S-100 boards at a very good (for the time) price, only problem was that they took the money and never shipped any product. Heck, there never was any product to be shipped! Stung BYTE, and a number of other publications for ad fees that were never payed... The real hoot to the thing was that if you looked REAL close at the pictures of the boards in the ad, you might notice that while there were components on the boards, there were NO traces on the boards! Guess they could have claimed 'transmutational signal propogation through osmosis'! (gee, a slogan!?) Now, what was that guy's name...? (ROTTOMT) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Thu Oct 8 13:43:56 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: IBM RT machine - info pls... In-Reply-To: References: <1998Oct08.132841.1767.145895@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <199810082219.SAA13913@commercial.cgocable.net> Hi, I have offered to take fairly complete RT for nothing, what it needs is hard drive and floppy drive (I happen to have standard 1.22MB drive and 40MB esdi to put in it). It have most of everything, 4mb ram and serial etc I think not enough info but it did have aix software to put on and 1 and 1.1 I think. Yes, it has monitor and keyboard. Now, what exactly how useful are these RT are and alterative OSes and software available for RT? Thanks very much! Jason D. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 8 17:40:34 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: VCF 2.0 t-shirts on sale [ClassicCmp discount!] Message-ID: I have a pile of VCF 2.0 t-shirts that I need to sell. Order now and get a $2 ClassicCmper discount on any shirt. If you order, make sure you tell me you're a ClassicCmper. See www.vintage.org/vcf for graphical depictions. There are still a few VCF 1.0 shirts left over. These are not listed on the page but they're going for $10 each. Buy one so you can say you were there, even if you weren't! (I'll even vouch for you if anyone questions your autheticity :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Oct 8 17:49:35 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: World Power Systems scam Message-ID: World Power Systems: Memory boards, big ads, great prices, non-existent company. Some guy named "The Colonel" who of course wasn't. Magazine ads on credit, graphic design for said ads on credit, prepayment from customers never returned. Not just in Byte magazine, also (at least) kilobaud and Interface Age, year was 1978? Whole thing was blown by the editor of Interface Age, who was suspicious and called to "do a story" on the company. When he showed up, "The Colonel" was on the lam, and there was nothing but an empty office and a phone. An almost identical scam happened in, as I recall, 1979, when a company placed multipage color ads for a bunch of really cool, inexpensive TRS-80 Model 1 peripherals in 80 Microcomputing Magazine, then disappeared. And let's not forget Morrow, which, after changing names to Xibec (Xidec?) and announcing & taking orders for some super doozy computer called The General, also vanished overnight. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail [mailto:dastar@ncal.verio.com] Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 3:26 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: World Power Systems scam On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, John Foust wrote: > Does anyone recall the month and year the "World Power Systems" > scam advertisement appeared in (was it?) Byte? What was the nature of this scam? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Oct 8 14:11:14 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Update 2 - Aquarius Data Recorders In-Reply-To: <199810081707.MAA27382@trailingedge.com> References: <199810081532.KAA26709@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <199810082313.TAA22201@smtp.interlog.com> On 8 Oct 98 at 12:07, David Williams wrote: > I just received more info on the Data Recorders... they had a "mis- > communication", there are 3 pallets of 240 recorders each! 720 > recorders total!!! They have agreed to let the pallets go separately. > I'd like to know where they came up with these. Anyway, I guess > I'll make them an offer on one pallet, I can't save them all. I guess > the other 480 of them will hit the scrapers. Then I just have to > figure out what to do with the remaining 220 recorders that haven't > been claimed yet. > > I can see it now... > > Quick! Get your EXTREMELY RARE, IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND > Aquarius Data Recorder. No collector can live without one or three > or more! MINT CONDITION IN ORIGINAL BOX!! Opening bid only > $500. Move fast because I have to run 200 more auctions just like > this one. ;-) ;-) ;-) > > Any idea if they could be modified to work on other 8-bits like an Atari, C64 or even (gasp) a 5150 ? If so I'd take a few. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From scott at isd.canberra.edu.au Thu Oct 8 18:20:31 1998 From: scott at isd.canberra.edu.au (Scott McLauchlan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 (was Re: Convergent Technologies workSlate) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981009092030.007eab40@cts.canberra.edu.au> At 00:08 8/10/98 -0400, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: >Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > thrown in. The NEC and Olivetti versions depended on external modems >> >> I have the Olivetti version - an M10, and the PCB certainly has positions >> for the internal modem components. Now, it would be quite normal for a UK >> machine not to have the modem (our CCITT tones are different from Bell >> tones at 300 baud, and there are different approval requirements), so I >> assumed that the US model had the modem fitted. > >I have never read a report or review of an M-10 with an internal modem. >And the magazines that covered the Model 100 _did_ review the Olivetti >and NEC products, but of course those magazines were rather more than >three moves ago (per Poor Richard, three removes equals one fire), but >I do recall that they all had the same Kyocera main board with minor >changes per customer. The NEC PC-8300 (updated version of the PC-8201A, with more RAM and a few improvements in ROM, such as support for XMODEM in TELCOM) had an 300 baud internal modem as an option (only available in the US). Although my PC-8300 doesn't have a modem, it does have a single loose A4 page in the manual describing how to get Wall Street stock prices on-line. Regards, | Scott McLauchlan |E-Mail: scott@cts.canberra.edu.au | | Network Services Team |Phone : +61 2 6201 5544 (Ext.5544)| | Client Services Division |Post : University of Canberra, | | University of Canberra, AUSTRALIA | ACT, 2601, AUSTRALIA. | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 8 17:43:52 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems In-Reply-To: <199810081723.AA13085@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 8, 98 01:23:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1946 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981008/549736d7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 8 17:47:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981008140114.00cc0ea0@pc> from "John Foust" at Oct 8, 98 02:01:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1227 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981008/d0db8948/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 8 18:02:52 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems In-Reply-To: <19981008220716.601.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 8, 98 10:07:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3397 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981009/41586586/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Oct 8 18:31:45 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: IBM RT machine - info pls... Message-ID: <45c8838.361d4b61@aol.com> i have one as well, but no keyboard so i can't test mine. i dont think you'll find anything to run on that beast these days. best to check comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt very little traffic, but there are some ontopic posts there. In a message dated 10/8/98 5:47:12 PM US Eastern Standard Time, jpero@pop.cgocable.net writes: > I have offered to take fairly complete RT for nothing, what it needs > is hard drive and floppy drive (I happen to have standard 1.22MB > drive and 40MB esdi to put in it). It have most of everything, 4mb > ram and serial etc I think not enough info but it did have aix > software to put on and 1 and 1.1 I think. Yes, it has monitor and > keyboard. > > Now, what exactly how useful are these RT are and alterative OSes and > software available for RT? From paulk at microsoft.com Thu Oct 8 18:43:11 1998 From: paulk at microsoft.com (Paul Kearns) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Apple //c power supply Message-ID: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B5080C5AA5@RED-MSG-45> Arrrggghhh... Okay, so, for some time my Apple ][ collection has included a //c which I've never booted because I didn't have the brick for it. I've seen them for sale all over, but always for $25 to $40 (plus shipping). Since that's like five times what I paid for the CPU, I've been pretty reluctant to go for it. At the VCF swap meet, I picked up a //c with brick for $15, and the vendor even threw in a non-working //c for parts (cool). I brought it all home, fired up the two good //c's, and then turned to the non working one, which promptly (auugh!) ate the brick. I'd like to get in there and see if I can fix it, or just rebuild it (but I'd still like to at least rebuild it inside the brick case). Does anyone know if there is a way to get these things open without ruining them? I've pushed and poked and prodded with no luck. Thanks a lot! Paul Kearns paulk@microsoft.com From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Oct 8 18:43:48 1998 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Help: Identify my board In-Reply-To: References: <199810081629.AA09573@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810082343.TAA29150@quartz.netsync.net> Ah HA! I see it now George! The two edge connectors at the left & right edge of the board (as it faces us) are indeed the power and gnd connections for the Multibus. The board plugs into the P1 slot with those two 6-finger edge conns. How dumb of me not to realize this. Man, I was looking at it from the upper edge conn. being the part to plug into the Multibus P2 connector but I was wondering how in the heck the sides of that upper edge would clear the card rack and backplane! I was thinking those 6-finger connectors were just used for I/O or something. The shape of the board is not what I'm used to seeing for Multibus boards (I've got a dozen or so of the 'traditional' style around here of various types.) Apparently I/O was handled through that edge conn. at the top of the picture, true? Thanks for this bit of info that might help me when hunting through a pile of boards at a hamfest, etc. Regards, Chris At 10:18 10/08/98 -0700, you wrote: >Your looking at an SBC 80/04 board manufactured by Intel through about >1985. Power could be obtained by plugging the board's two connectors into >the P1 slot. Again this was not a multibus board but could be plugged >into a Multibus P1 connector. > >George Rachor > >========================================================= >George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com >Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > >On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > >> < > Can someone help identify this board? It has a 8085AH CPU in the A9 >> < > socket. On the right the board says "Intel (C) 1977 MADE IN USA." On t >> < > back of the circuit board is etched "PWB1001480-03 REV H." If you wan >> < > to see what the board looks like click on my link below. >> >> Processor for a Intel model 220 development system is a good possibility. >> >> Unfortunately the copyright date on intel board has little to do with >> design and manufacture date. >> >> Allison >> >> > -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Oct 8 20:12:47 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: IBM 5363 II In-Reply-To: <13362763362.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19980610140848.4897bbd6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981008201247.4daf25ee@intellistar.net> Daniel, The trift store that has the 5363 is closing down and now they're willing to part with it. What should I offer for it? or what are they worth? I doubt they have any docs or disks but apparently they have a terminal or monitor on it and a keyboard cause some guy used to tinker with it. Joe At 02:31 PM 6/10/98 -0700, you wrote: >[What's 5363?] >That's an IBM System/36. Once you get in, it's a nice menuized thing, easy >to deal with. I have one, and I'm getting another. >SSP means System Support Product. I guess it's the O/S... >You will need a twinax terminal to use it. They're neat to have. >Especially if you get manuals and the SSP floppies... >As for the password, it took me 3 tries to get into mine. >Username BACKUP, password was PASS. Nice. >It can be reloaded from the SSP disks (I don't have these. Anyone got images?) >to bypass the passwords... >Also, see if you can get the key that goes in the frontpanel. It's not >necessary to run the machine, but it lets you put the machine in Service >mode and you can make it do fun things like dump core. >I have bypassed this on my box by wiring the key permanently in the SERVICE >position. >If you get it, I'd be glad to help run it... >------- > From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Oct 8 07:20:04 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bdf2b5$fb11ebe0$23afadce@5x86jk> Thanks for update and I will keep my eyes open for the right one. > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Sam Ismail > Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 10:37 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: New Finds > > > On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, John R. Keys, Jr. wrote: > > > Today I walked into a thrift store and found a stack of Popular Science, > > Popular Mechanics, and others going back to 1974. I got real excited > > thinking I would find that had Altair on the cover (does anyone remember > > which issue that was ?), but no luck. I did get a October 1977 > issue that > > covers home computers for $595. In it were pictures and > write-ups on the > > You've got the wrong magazine altogether. You want to get excited when > you find issues of Popular Electronics. > > For the record: January 1975 > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: > dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------- > Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 8 19:21:42 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: World Power Systems scam In-Reply-To: (message from James Willing on Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:38:00 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981009002142.1204.qmail@brouhaha.com> > > > Does anyone recall the month and year the "World Power Systems" > > > scam advertisement appeared in (was it?) Byte? > The real hoot to the thing was that if you looked REAL close at the > pictures of the boards in the ad, you might notice that while there were > components on the boards, there were NO traces on the boards! There were traces. There just weren't *enough* traces. And the components were packed too densely on most of the boards they showed in the photographs. Sure, you could make boards that dense by going multi-layer, but not for the prices they were asking. Back then multilayer boards were very expen$ive. I saw these advertisements recently when I was looking up the two-part article on implementing DES on a KIM. I'll scan them and put them on my web site. Hey, a new service: ScamScan (TM). From marvin at rain.org Thu Oct 8 19:32:04 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems References: <6147b170.361c1ff5@aol.com> <19981008075036.29268.qmail@brouhaha.com> <3.0.1.32.19981008140114.00cc0ea0@pc> Message-ID: <361D5984.3A0ADB8C@rain.org> John Foust wrote: > > You are correct: a blown chip tells you where a problem now resides. > It tells you nothing about where the problem *was* before you > shorted the fuse. It was, after all, a *circuit*, meaning one > thing is connected to the next, and all you discovered is which > component will blow up / heat up / char along the way. I can recall a PDP-16 that would blow one of the chips apart about once every couple of months; just enough to be annoying. I finally opened it up and took out the backplane to examine it. On that particular backplane, they had bus strips connecting the various voltages to the proper locations. On the card that was blowing a chip, the -15V bus strip was almost touching another pin, and apparently did touch occassionally. Slight movement of the bus strip, and problem solved. From marvin at rain.org Thu Oct 8 19:43:48 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems References: <6147b170.361c1ff5@aol.com> <19981008075036.29268.qmail@brouhaha.com> <361CDB90.3467A0A6@rain.org> <19981008220716.601.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <361D5C44.47284849@rain.org> Eric Smith wrote: > > Marvin replied: > > whatever reason, I didn't find with the VOM. Running it a short time with > > the fuse shorted out heated up the chip and I was able to feel where the > > problem was. Troubleshooting vs normal operation :). > > Not so bad if it was something common and easily replaceable. But how > would you have felt if the problem had turned out to be a $0.05 shorted > passive compenent which caused then caused the failure of a rare or > exepnsive chip? Remember, the fuse isn't to protect the component that > failed and caused the problem, it's to protect the rest of the components > that are still OK (*). > > IMNSHO, it is almost criminally negligent to suggest shorting a fuse to > anyone as a troubleshooting technique. IMNSHO, there are many troubleshooting techniques, and part of being able to do effective troubleshooting is knowing when to use what technique. Like writing robust code, error checking is probably 80% of the code bulk (okay, slight overstatement) and when I talk about troubleshooting techniques, I leave out the disclaimers most of the time. I tend to assume that whoever trys them has the background to know when they are applicable. When I talk about shorting out a fuse, it is assumed that other common troubleshooting techniques have failed. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 8 19:44:38 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Current Tracers In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19981009004438.1407.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Alas real current tracers are not cheap, and I've not found one at a > radio rally yet. I am looking for one. I've lusted after the HP Current Tracer for years, but they are very expensive and the price keeps going up! Richard Ottosen has designed his own, which is fairly simple and inexpensive. That's what I used in the example I cited. I'll have to try to convince him sell them, offer a kit, or publish the plans. Eric From yowza at yowza.com Thu Oct 8 19:51:32 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: First Microprocessor (was Re: Corrections to trivia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not to beat a dead horse or anything.... Does anybody know where I can find a copy of David Hyatt's 1970 microprocessor patent? (This is the one that was thrown out after TI and Intel took him to court in 1996). Some related patents of interest: Gary Boone of TI, filed Aug 1971 http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?&patent_number=3757306 Ulbe Faber of Burroughs, filed Nov 1972 http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?&patent_number=3878514 Ted Hoff of Intel, filed Jan 1973 http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?&patent_number=3821715 The Intel patent includes scans of the original docs. -- Doug From kyrrin at jps.net Thu Oct 8 20:40:44 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Current Tracers In-Reply-To: <19981009004438.1407.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981008184044.00932730@mail.jps.net> At 00:44 09-10-98 -0000, you wrote: >I've lusted after the HP Current Tracer for years, but they are very >expensive and the price keeps going up! Is this the probe that looks a lot like the later models of HP Logic Probe, except with an insulated tip and a little pot that's used to set the sensitivity? If so, I got lucky and found one at a local swap meet. I think the guy wanted all of $25 for it and the HP Logic Pulser. I got both, naturally. I would conclude that they do show up at techie swaps, but not that often. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 8 21:20:50 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Heathkit H8 vs. H-89 Message-ID: <199810090220.AA15242@world.std.com> < address of 4200H or something for TRS-80 Model 1's without a memory < mapping mod, and also for some Heathkit machine. I always assumed the < latter was the H8. All of the H8 and H89 systems were rom at 0000, mods were available for both. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 8 21:20:57 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: World Power Systems scam Message-ID: <199810090220.AA15338@world.std.com> < > > Does anyone recall the month and year the "World Power Systems" < > > scam advertisement appeared in (was it?) Byte? < > < > What was the nature of this scam? Byte, Kilobaud and interface age were all DNP for full page ads and any customer that purchased was also part of the gig. There was nothing real about them or the product. Sphere was also considered a scam though they were real and did ship some product. They failed and took a few people. This was common back then as the industry was moving very fast. Everyone thought they could do the MITS or SWTP thing but didn't have the business skills or sometimes the design skills. I also have a copy of Microtrek that only printed one issue of the mag! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 8 21:21:04 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Help: Identify my board Message-ID: <199810090221.AA15410@world.std.com> < Ah HA! I see it now George! The two edge connectors at the left & righ < edge of the board (as it faces us) are indeed the power and gnd connecti < for the Multibus. The board plugs into the P1 slot with those two 6-fing < edge conns. How dumb of me not to realize this. I haven't looked at the web page but it sounds like the board for a ICE85 used in a Intel 230 development system. Allison From mbg at world.std.com Thu Oct 8 21:38:10 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too Message-ID: <199810090238.AA29474@world.std.com> > RT-11 legal restrictions exist... > RSX-11 No idea, but I'd expect licensing again > RSTS Licensing again? They're all covered by licenses. And are available for hobbyists, but again, only for use with the Supnik emulator. So, as you said, that doesn't help people with real iron. > Unix... AVAILABLE via PUPs support group as free binaries and 100$ > license for sources. Initially this seems good but not all PDP-11 > configurations can run unix and not all versions of Unix have the > drivers to interact with some PDP-11 hardware. So it may take a lot > of work with limited tools or none to get it going. V5, V6 and V6 are available from the same site as the Supnik emulators, and I don't believe the licenses accompanying them are as strict... and yes, the license for them is only $100. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Oct 8 21:46:14 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) Message-ID: <199810090246.AA05693@world.std.com> >> alt.folklore.computers where moron was trying to convince everyone that >>if you left the 6502 running this instruction, your CPU would literally heat >Does anybody know what system is referenced in the Jargon File under HCF >as the one that could burn up its bus lines if the processor were given >the HCF instruction? I've tried the HCF instruction on my 6502-based heathkit electronics trainer (ET-????) It was neat to watch the address lines increment and wrap... But although I ran it for a long time, it didn't catch fire... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From yowza at yowza.com Thu Oct 8 21:53:30 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) In-Reply-To: <199810090246.AA05693@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Megan wrote: > I've tried the HCF instruction on my 6502-based heathkit electronics > trainer (ET-????) It was neat to watch the address lines increment > and wrap... But although I ran it for a long time, it didn't > catch fire... That's probably because it was a 6800 trainer (ET-3400). All of the 6502 trainers went up in flames before they left the factory. -- Doug From mbg at world.std.com Thu Oct 8 22:01:03 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) Message-ID: <199810090301.AA16620@world.std.com> aha... sorry about that... shows how much I've used it recently. You're right. it is a 6800... (damn) Megan From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 8 23:10:04 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: DEC RQDX3 Controller Message-ID: Could someone post the jumper settings for a RQDX3 controller? I've been trying to use my RQDX2 docs, but that won't cut it, and I can't find anything on the net. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 8 22:21:10 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too Message-ID: <199810090321.AA01255@world.std.com> < V5, V6 and V6 are available from the same site as the Supnik < emulators, and I don't believe the licenses accompanying them < are as strict... and yes, the license for them is only $100. The 100$ license is for the sources. Binaries are pretty much free if it runs on what you have. It turns out that can be more of a restriction than any license. The question is however is there something else? I know fuzzball is around but I don't know if that is a option for most -11 users. For me it's no fun running an emulator when real iron is at hand. Though I'm able to run most OSs I'm always looking at "Yet other choices". Allison From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Oct 8 22:37:01 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Current Tracers Message-ID: <19981008.223825.112.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Whoa! Yep, that's the one! Boy, did you ever get lucky! Those current tracers are $300-$400 a shot! And HP *still* makes these. Such a deal. On Thu, 08 Oct 1998 18:40:44 -0700 Bruce Lane writes: >At 00:44 09-10-98 -0000, you wrote: > >>I've lusted after the HP Current Tracer for years, but they are very >>expensive and the price keeps going up! > > Is this the probe that looks a lot like the later models of HP >Logic >Probe, except with an insulated tip and a little pot that's used to >set the >sensitivity? > > If so, I got lucky and found one at a local swap meet. I think >the guy >wanted all of $25 for it and the HP Logic Pulser. I got both, >naturally. > > I would conclude that they do show up at techie swaps, but not >that often. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: >http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) >SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in >our own >human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From kyrrin at jps.net Fri Oct 9 00:45:20 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: DEC RQDX3 Controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981008224520.00938c00@mail.jps.net> At 20:10 08-10-98 -0800, you wrote: >Could someone post the jumper settings for a RQDX3 controller? I've been >trying to use my RQDX2 docs, but that won't cut it, and I can't find >anything on the net. I'm going to see if I can scan the RQDX3 pages into graphics files this weekend. You're not the only one who needs a set. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 9 02:33:57 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: What computers used the AMI7200 & 7300? Message-ID: Here's the information about pricing on the F14 CADC directly from Ray Holt. > To my knowledge the first set of chips were included into the > development price, however, as I remember the remainder of the initial > contract had a price tag of $250-$350 per chip. The ROM's were > probably a little less that that. In follow-on production (qty's of > 1000+) AMI had estimated chip prices to be under $100. I noticed I had > put $65 in my paper. And on some of the applications the AMI 7200 & 7300 microprocessors made their way into: > The 7200 and 7300 were used, for sure, in very high scientific > calculators and as i/o controllers for some mini's, however, I left AMI > right after the development so I did not get into who any follow-on > customers were. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 9 03:04:03 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: World Power Systems scam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > And let's not forget Morrow, which, after changing names to Xibec (Xidec?) > and announcing & taking orders for some super doozy computer called The > General, also vanished overnight. Morrow? Certainly not George Morrow, who developed and sold many, many products during the 70s and 80s. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 9 03:10:27 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Apple //c power supply In-Reply-To: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B5080C5AA5@RED-MSG-45> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Paul Kearns wrote: > I'd like to get in there and see if I can fix it, or just rebuild it (but > I'd still like to at least rebuild it inside the brick case). Does anyone > know if there is a way to get these things open without ruining them? I've > pushed and poked and prodded with no luck. Your best bet is to just cut it open since its already fried. The chance of it being filled with epoxy is good. The chance of opening it without making it look like Frankenbrick is 0% or less. Check thrift stores around you regularly. One is bound to pop up. Also, middle and elementary school garage sales would be a good source. You should never have to pay more than $5 for a //c power supply. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 9 07:08:23 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) Message-ID: <199810091049.MAA00755@marina.fth.sbs.de> Eric Smith > Cameron Kaiser wrote about undefined 6502 opcodes: >> [lot deleted] Exact hit Eric. > This is nothing new to microprocessors; many mainframes and minicomputers > had undefined opcodes which customers experimented with. Yes, but as a rule, mainframes and most minis catch undefined opcodes in a special exeption. Even the Intel x86 (starting from with the 80186) throw an Int 06 on invalid opcodes. > As with the > microprocessors, there was never any guarantee that the undefined opcodes > on any two otherwise equivalent machines would peform identically. With > microprocessors, though, there tend to be fewer design changes made after > introduction than there were for mainframes. AFAIK, all NMOS 6502 CPUs > have the same behavior for all undocumented instructions. Some of the > NMOS deriviatives have different behavior though. Jep, the web article used by Cameron as reference is based on the Commodore 8502 used in the C64. Just lucky that Commo used the original MOS design for the 8502 :). Other 6502 compatible Processors, that didn't use the original design have different operations at the undefind opcodes. Eventualy this led to some problems Apple II programms encountered on individual clones or Apples with upgraded CPUs. Especialy when one switched for any of the CMOS types (65C02, 65SC02, 65G02, 65S02), becuse they used some of the free Opcodes for new/enhanced operations (like bitmaipulation etc.). Undefined opcodes ar implementation dependend like internal function of an operating system are version dependand. Just remember how ridicoulus the CPU detection algorythms on the x86 are since there was no standard cpu type command. Some of the enhanced chips can only be detected usind complex tryal and error strategies. I remember that a general purpose detector could take some seconds to determinate the CPU thru exeptions, timeouts, busfaults and arithmetic checking. And now try to distinguish the different 6502s. I have never seen any programm to perform this. Funy thing: History repeats with DirectX - Microsoft didn't include any version checking in DirectX 3.0 so, for example, if you want to use the enhanced sound functions later on, you have to perform time consuming operations to finaly find the needed function resulting in an error (or worse, depending on the function just performing diferent). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mbg at world.std.com Fri Oct 9 06:11:49 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:15 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too Message-ID: <199810091111.AA04159@world.std.com> >The question is however is there something else? I know fuzzball is >around but I don't know if that is a option for most -11 users. I don't think so, since some of Fuzzball, if I remember correctly, is built under RT-11 and runs under RT-11. I don't think I've seen a Fuzzball system which was entirely self-bootable. (Maybe John Wilson can answer, since he's done some stuff with it). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From bobstek at ix15.ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 9 09:26:32 1998 From: bobstek at ix15.ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: World Power Systems scam Message-ID: <000201bdf390$cfc24ee0$3bf7fea9@mycroft> Kai - Please don't confuse Morrow (a "good" guy) with the Xitan scammers. TDL made a Z-80 board and then some decent software, and then some Xitan computer systems. TDL got into trouble using some bad memory chips and had cash flow problems. Some "business consultants" were brought in who dissolved TDL and started Xitan and heavily promoted an advanced Z80 system, the General. They took orders and disappeared in '78. But George Morrow wasn't involved - he was in California, and TDL / Xitan was in New Jersey. Bob Stek bobstek@ix.netcom.com Saver of Lost SOLs From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Oct 9 07:18:00 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: IBM 5363 II In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981008201247.4daf25ee@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <13394382030.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [They have the keyboard...] I dunno - I'd offer them about $30 if it has the terminal. Oh, and don't forget to ask about usernames/passwords... I broke into mine only because the previous owner had an easily guessable username and password (BACKUPS/BACKUPS). ------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 9 08:41:28 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too Message-ID: <981009094128.21400150@trailing-edge.com> >>The question is however is there something else? I know fuzzball is >>around but I don't know if that is a option for most -11 users. >I don't think so, since some of Fuzzball, if I remember correctly, >is built under RT-11 and runs under RT-11. I don't think I've seen >a Fuzzball system which was entirely self-bootable. (Maybe John >Wilson can answer, since he's done some stuff with it). John Wilson does have self-bootable Fuzzball images on ftp.dbit.com, in /pub/pdp11/fuzzball. Fuzzball is an "operating system" of sorts, but you can't do development with it unless you have the RT-11 macro assembler, linker, and other program development tools, so there isn't a lot of interesting stuff you can do with it unless you've also got a RT-11 license. TSX+ is pretty much the same way - without the RT-11 utilities you're dead in the water. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Oct 9 09:03:19 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) In-Reply-To: <199810091049.MAA00755@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Oct 9, 98 12:09:23 pm Message-ID: <199810091403.HAA13158@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 762 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981009/15be96d6/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Oct 9 09:31:56 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: World Power Systems scam In-Reply-To: <000201bdf390$cfc24ee0$3bf7fea9@mycroft> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Bob Stek wrote: > Please don't confuse Morrow (a "good" guy) with the Xitan scammers. TDL > made a Z-80 board and then some decent software, and then some Xitan > computer systems. TDL got into trouble using some bad memory chips and had > cash flow problems. Some "business consultants" were brought in who > dissolved TDL and started Xitan and heavily promoted an advanced Z80 system, > the General. They took orders and disappeared in '78. But George Morrow > wasn't involved - he was in California, and TDL / Xitan was in New Jersey. Ok, that clears a couple of things up. I was wondering if it was "Xitan" that the story was coming around to. In their brief history, they did manage to make some decent products before falling to 'the dark side'. Turns out that I have a fairly complete set of their original boards and most of their paper tape released software in the collection. ...of course, I just need to get the pictures shot and added to the web site... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 9 10:49:35 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) Message-ID: <199810091430.QAA18022@marina.fth.sbs.de> >::Jep, the web article used by Cameron as reference is >::based on the Commodore 8502 used in the C64. Just >::lucky that Commo used the original MOS design for >::the 8502 :). Other 6502 compatible Processors, that > Luck had nothing to do with it -- Commodore owned MOS. MOS was turned into > Commodore Semiconductor Group after Jack Tramiel bought them out. Stupid meone, no idea of history. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 9 09:34:49 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: World Power Systems scam In-Reply-To: References: <000201bdf390$cfc24ee0$3bf7fea9@mycroft> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981009093449.00c8bc90@pc> But can anyone point me to a particular issue of Byte or other magazine that has a World Power Systems ad? - John From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Oct 9 10:03:59 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Apple //c power supply Message-ID: <199810091511.LAA23840@gate.usaor.net> Probably all that's wrong with it is a blown fuse. (that happened to a TRS-80 Model I P/S that I had). To get it open, take a utility knife (the kind with snap-off blades) with a new blade, and a blow torch. Use the blow torch to heat the knife, then "cut" around the P/S until the top half pops off the bottom half. I use this method to open old laptop batteries to replace the cells. When you get the P/S fixed, just put the two halves back together, (sand [or cut] the ridges off made by the hot knife, first) and put a bead of hot glue in the seam to hold it together. It doesn't look that bad, and It can always be popped apart with a screwdriver if you need to fix it again. GooD LucK, ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Apple //c power supply > Date: Friday, October 09, 1998 4:10 AM > > On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Paul Kearns wrote: > > I'd like to get in there and see if I can fix it, or just rebuild it (but > I'd still like to at least rebuild it inside the brick case). Does anyone > know if there is a way to get these things open without ruining them? I've > pushed and poked and prodded with no luck. From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Oct 9 10:34:32 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Hard drive recovery questions Message-ID: <19981009153433.6729.qmail@hotmail.com> This particular manifestation of a hard drive problem is not classic, but since it could just as easily happen on a classic computer, might as well ask it here. If you think it's inappropriate, please say so. The machine in question is a Mac Quadra 610, which has been running as a fileserver for a 15-machine network for many years. It has an 8GB hard drive, probably one of the first to get into catalogs. It was working OK, but tended to freeze when four people started to transfer 10MB files. So, we replaced it. And now, the hard drive stopped working and we can't get the documents stored on it back. Here is the hard drive problem: it spins up ok (takes about 15sec. and sounds like a hair dryer when it does), and then tries to seek. The heads sound OK for about 1 sec. and then make a clicking noise and stop. It then tries again. Does this mean some servo data has been overwritten or something? We don't want to spend $1000 on recovery, and I thought this might be a good time to try some alternative methods. Would it help if I opened the drive and manually moved the heads? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sherry at neteze.com Fri Oct 9 10:53:17 1998 From: sherry at neteze.com (Sherry Bumgarner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Canon Cat Message-ID: <19981009154936234.AAA421@[209.204.144.87]> If anyone wants to know about the Cat, I have a large collection of info and Cats (and a Swyft or two) and a lot of memories. John 'Sandy' Bumgarner job@garlic.com (sherry@neteze.com is my wife's email address) From sherry at neteze.com Fri Oct 9 11:15:17 1998 From: sherry at neteze.com (Sherry Bumgarner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Canon Cat Message-ID: <19981009161135687.AAA197@[209.204.144.87]> I have a lot of information on the Canon Cat and related computers. I worked on them and was a company (Information Appliance) founder. Interested? John 'Sandy' Bumgarner job@garlic.com From bill_r at inetnebr.com Fri Oct 9 11:28:29 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: World Power Systems scam Message-ID: <199810091626.LAA16919@falcon.inetnebr.com> I was thinking I had seen it in 80 Microcomputing. If I get time this weekend, I'll see if I can find it. My memory is hazy on the issue, but I believe I either sent them money for a product, or was _about_ to send them money when it turned out to be a scam. I remember things like mock-ups of products that they used in their ads; they'd taken some standard project boxes and literally just sat parts of switches, LED lenses, etc, on top of them for the photographs. I think I may have talked to someone at the "company" about their products. If I can ask, what prompted this after so long? > >But can anyone point me to a particular issue of Byte or other >magazine that has a World Power Systems ad? > >- John > > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From djenner at halcyon.com Fri Oct 9 12:00:04 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too References: <199810081629.AA10315@world.std.com> Message-ID: <361E4114.8F7BCDBA@halcyon.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > So what else is there that is free (or very low cost) and can be run on > most of the LSI-11, PDP-11/23 or 11/73 series? IE: can be run on a > 11/03 with RX01 floppy or a 11/73 with RQDX3 MSCP disks (hard disks). This is a critical question. If there were only a small OS that ran on a minimal -11 with floppies, there could be many more usable systems out there. There are several other possibilities. The last two of these have fairly liberal licensing restrictions (maybe none): - HT-11, the Heathkit version of RT-11 (circa Version 2?), which, if you can find a copy, might have less restrictive licensing than the "real" RT-11. - Xinu, which runs on an 11/03, but probably requires a VAX running BSD4.3 networked to it to persist. It may be possible to run a networked Intel machine running FreeBSD (or even Linux). This is a long term project I'd like to tackle, but it's way down the list. - FORTH, which is available in several different versions for a minimal -11. From personal experience, however, I wouldn't want to wish this on anybody but the most dedicated hackers. Perhaps that describes well someone who is trying to use a small -11 now? For FORTH resources see: http://www.taygeta.com/forth.html http://theforthsource.com You could run FORTH using one RX01, and there were (are?) several versions around, including FIG and DECUS (RT-11 based) one. It's not clear that the latest (last?) implementations for the -11 are still widely available. Maybe someone can dig them out? Dave From heavy at ctesc.net Fri Oct 9 12:37:34 1998 From: heavy at ctesc.net (Jim Weiler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: RAM card Identification help? In-Reply-To: <000201bdf390$cfc24ee0$3bf7fea9@mycroft> Message-ID: I have a board I'm hoping I can get help on identifying. It is a RAM expansion board copyright 1983 by Convergent Technologies. It has the numbers A-60-00095-00-9(or 0)-8431 printed and stamped on it. It has 4 banks x 9 - HM4864AP-15s on it, and a 50-pin double-Inline female pinout configuration. Can anyone help as to what it is, what it works with? Going through stuff, don't want to throw away anything anyone wants. -Jim Weiler "Recyclable" is the politically-correct term for "Garbage" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ mailto:heavy@ctesc.net * Jim Weiler * http://pages.tstar.net/~heavy http://home.talkcity.com/HardDiskDrive/yacccht/index.html ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From rax at warbaby.com Fri Oct 9 13:53:42 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Help with AES computer? Message-ID: Can anyone help this guy? >Professor Dr Hans Rollmann, who supervises one of the more elegant and >elaborate sites on the WorldWideWeb for the Department of Religious Studies >at Memorial University in Newfoundland, has found some important primary >data that he hopes to mount with other texts on the site. These data are >imprisoned on 8-inch computer disks that were made on an AES computer, >apparently in the 1980s. No printed record of the material survives; only >the 8-inch disks remain. No AES computer or 8-inch drive exists at Memorial >University; the technical services people from the Computing Sciences >Department tried to build an 8-inch drive from spare parts, but came up >short. The intellectual content frozen in this "obsolete" technology >remains unreadable. > >Does anyone know the whereabouts of an intact AES computer? Failing that, >is there any available information about these machines? What did the >acronym AES stand for? Where was it built? Most important, what operating >system did it use? What word processing software might have been loaded? > >Has anyone preserved any computer with an 8-inch disk drive? As I recall, >both Commodore and Atari used 8-inch drives. > >Anyone who has useful information on this problem can communicate with >Professor Rollmann at > > hrollman@morgan.ucs.mun.ca > >Those who may be interested in his religious studies web site can begin >sifting through its many layers at > > http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~hrollman > >Professor Rollmann will be grateful for any assistance anyone can offer. >The rest of us need to be sure that any intellectual material we >"catalogue" can also be "read." -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. From aaron at wfi-inc.com Fri Oct 9 12:49:37 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too In-Reply-To: <361E4114.8F7BCDBA@halcyon.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, David C. Jenner wrote: > Allison J Parent wrote: > > So what else is there that is free (or very low cost) and can be run on > > most of the LSI-11, PDP-11/23 or 11/73 series? IE: can be run on a > > 11/03 with RX01 floppy or a 11/73 with RQDX3 MSCP disks (hard disks). Having just gotten my 11/23 to come to life, I have been following this thread with keen interest... Obviously, I don't own a license for RT-11. And assume that the commercial license from Mentec is probably much more than a hobbyist would pay to tinker with old machines. Has anyone approached Mentec about the possibility of a hobbyist-type license for _older_ versions of these OS's (ala VMS hobbyist)? Perhaps if a group approached them with a proposal they would be more apt to create one. From what I can tell, an old PDP with no software license is virtually useless, except for hacking/curiosity value. After a half hour of playing around with the ODT commands, I shut down and picked up a book instead. Much like my VAXen would be without the VMS-hobbyist license. I mean, who _really_ wants to run BSD on all of your old hardware? It kind of defeats the whole purpose of collecting the old machines if you have the same stupid Unix prompt on your VAX, Sparc 1, Mac IIfx, 486PC, etc... Just my $.02, Aaron From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 9 12:49:38 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Help with AES computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981009124938.00924630@pc> At 10:53 AM 10/9/98 -0800, Rax wrote: >Can anyone help this guy? I was passed and posted the same note a few days ago, and have heard nothing from any party. - John From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 9 13:19:38 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too Message-ID: <199810091819.AA20264@world.std.com> Someone suggested H11 and I'd bet that one is more encumbered as it was a version of RT and I think Heath was licensed from DEC. < Obviously, I don't own a license for RT-11. And assume that the commerci < license from Mentec is probably much more than a hobbyist would pay to < tinker with old machines. Has anyone approached Mentec about the Unknown, Megan any idea of cost? < they would be more apt to create one. From what I can tell, an old PDP < with no software license is virtually useless, except for < hacking/curiosity value. After a half hour of playing around with the Maybe someone could create an OS for the PD, patterned after CPM or ???. < would be without the VMS-hobbyist license. I mean, who _really_ wants t < run BSD on all of your old hardware? It kind of defeats the whole < purpose of collecting the old machines if you have the same stupid Unix < prompt on your VAX, Sparc 1, Mac IIfx, 486PC, etc... That is especially true if your not into unix though, that is an option for those that are. Allison From djenner at halcyon.com Fri Oct 9 13:35:12 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too References: Message-ID: <361E5760.C3999389@halcyon.com> I'm sure many have tried with DEC and Mentec to get a hobbyist license for RT-11. For example, following is an email I sent a couple of years ago to Mentec. (P.S. I _really_ DO want to run BSD on as much of my old -11 hardware as possible, and I have license AU-1 to do it. But, I also have one or two small -11 systems where RT-11 is ideal, and that's probably the more likely case with hobbyists.) To: Chip Charlot/Sales/Mentec Subject: RT-11 Hobbyist License Chip, Thank you for talking to me about the possibility of an RT-11 hobbyist license. There are now many LSI-11, uPDP-11, PDP-11 machines being preserved by dedicated "hobbyist-oriented" users who can't afford, and who don't want to spend, the high cost of an official, commericial license for RT-11. DECUS is now making OpenVMS available to the hobbiest at a reasonable price. (Yes, I know lots of hobbyists who have VAX and uVAX machines at home.) Here is a Web page that summarizes the DECUS arrangement: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ Rather than repeat all the information contained at that Web site, I suggest you take a look at the Proposal, License Terms, Licensing, and Media Kit details at that site for VMS. I hope that DEC and Mentec can work something out. I believe that it would be to the advantage of both companies to preserve the machines and software that otherwise may dwindle to a very small user base over time. Thanks, Dave Jenner djenner@halcyon.com Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, David C. Jenner wrote: > > > Allison J Parent wrote: > > > So what else is there that is free (or very low cost) and can be run on > > > most of the LSI-11, PDP-11/23 or 11/73 series? IE: can be run on a > > > 11/03 with RX01 floppy or a 11/73 with RQDX3 MSCP disks (hard disks). > > Having just gotten my 11/23 to come to life, I have been following this > thread with keen interest... > > Obviously, I don't own a license for RT-11. And assume that the commercial > license from Mentec is probably much more than a hobbyist would pay to > tinker with old machines. Has anyone approached Mentec about the > possibility of a hobbyist-type license for _older_ versions of these OS's > (ala VMS hobbyist)? Perhaps if a group approached them with a proposal > they would be more apt to create one. From what I can tell, an old PDP > with no software license is virtually useless, except for > hacking/curiosity value. After a half hour of playing around with the > ODT commands, I shut down and picked up a book instead. Much like my VAXen > would be without the VMS-hobbyist license. I mean, who _really_ wants to > run BSD on all of your old hardware? It kind of defeats the whole > purpose of collecting the old machines if you have the same stupid Unix > prompt on your VAX, Sparc 1, Mac IIfx, 486PC, etc... > > Just my $.02, > > Aaron From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 9 13:43:09 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > If the F14 computer was really as cheap as you say, then you're right. > I'm sure Intel had a gate budget and a price point they were shooting for, > so if those two parameters are similar for both designs, you've got a > point. Otherwise, you can't judge the "technical significance" of the > 4004 by comparing it to, say, a special purpose computer with different > design goals and silicon budgets. The CADC was not special purpose. It could be programmed to do all sorts of stuff, just like the 4004 was. The design goal from the onset was to make it general purpose so that the design could be re-used in all sorts of aerospace projects. This is explained in many of Holt's papers on the design. He also talked about during his VCF presentation. > So, what was the gate count for the single-chip F14 CPU? What was the > process? How much silicon did it use? And double-check that price! http://www.microcomputerhistory.com has all these answers and more. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From marvin at rain.org Fri Oct 9 13:45:58 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: World Power Systems scam References: <000201bdf390$cfc24ee0$3bf7fea9@mycroft> Message-ID: <361E59E6.F8DBDF6E@rain.org> Bob Stek wrote: > > Please don't confuse Morrow (a "good" guy) with the Xitan scammers. TDL > made a Z-80 board and then some decent software, and then some Xitan > computer systems. TDL got into trouble using some bad memory chips and had > cash flow problems. Some "business consultants" were brought in who > dissolved TDL and started Xitan and heavily promoted an advanced Z80 system, > the General. They took orders and disappeared in '78. But George Morrow > wasn't involved - he was in California, and TDL / Xitan was in New Jersey. For those who are interested, there is a pretty good description of what happened there in Stan Veit's "History of the Personal Computer." From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 9 13:48:57 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Current Tracers In-Reply-To: <19981008.223825.112.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> References: <19981008.223825.112.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <19981009184857.5558.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Yep, that's the one! Boy, did you ever get lucky! Those current tracers > are $300-$400 a shot! And HP *still* makes these. > Such a deal. Are you sure? I can't find them on the HP T&M web site. Last time I checked into it, HP wanted about $800 for them. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 9 13:58:55 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) In-Reply-To: <199810091049.MAA00755@marina.fth.sbs.de> (franke@sbs.de) References: <199810091049.MAA00755@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <19981009185855.5622.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Hans Franke" wrote: > Yes, but as a rule, mainframes and most minis catch undefined > opcodes in a special exeption. That's only a 'rule' for recent machines. Most of the early ones didn't. When IBM was developing the 1401 emulation for the 360/30, they discovered that many customers were in fact using and dependent on undefined behaviors of the 1401. They had to emulate a lot of things that were never documented. References: _The Mythical Man Month_ by Brooks, _Computer Architecture: Concepts and Evolution_ by Brooks and Blaauw, _IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems_ by Pugh, Johnson, and Palmer Eric From yowza at yowza.com Fri Oct 9 14:12:07 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: <19981009161135687.AAA197@[209.204.144.87]> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Sherry Bumgarner wrote: > I have a lot of information on the Canon Cat and related computers. I > worked on them and was a company (Information Appliance) founder. > Interested? Yes, very! We all want to know the real story of who killed the Cat! (And I want one or two of your Cats, as well). -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 9 14:13:16 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: First Microprocessor (was Re: Corrections to trivia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > Does anybody know where I can find a copy of David Hyatt's 1970 > microprocessor patent? (This is the one that was thrown out after TI and > Intel took him to court in 1996). His name is Gilbert Hyatt. Try: 4942516 : Single chip integrated circuit computer architectur Issued: Jul 17, 1990 http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?&patent_number=4942516 Also, 4121284 : Computerized system for operator interaction Issued: Oct. 17, 1978 http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?&patent_number=4121284 (interesting to me because it was filed in my home town) The first "personal computer"? 5594908 : Computer system having a serial keyboard, a serial display, and a dynamic memory with memory refresh Issued: Jan. 14, 1997 Now before you scoff, this one is really interesting because some machines were allegedly built in 1970 (but based on a two-sided PCB prototype of the Hyatt "microprocessor"). It was called the Contourama IV, and was built by Micro Computer Inc., a start-up that Hyatt spear-headed in 1968 (and was dissolved in 1971). Apparently it was the size of a small refrigerator. It never worked very well and the start-up failed disastrously. That's all the information I have, which I got from an article in West magazine, December 2, 1990 (the article is several pages long and is mainly about Hyatt's microprocessor patent). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Oct 9 14:42:13 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Canon Cat Message-ID: <19981009.144248.222.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:12:07 -0500 (CDT) Doug Yowza writes: >On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Sherry Bumgarner wrote: > >> I have a lot of information on the Canon Cat and related computers. >I >> worked on them and was a company (Information Appliance) founder. >> Interested? > >Yes, very! We all want to know the real story of who killed the Cat! Maybe nobody-- maybe because it was just too 'curious'. (sorry, couldn't resist). >(And I want one or two of your Cats, as well). > >-- Doug > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Oct 9 14:40:11 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Current Tracers Message-ID: <19981009.144248.222.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Holy smokes! You're right! They're not in the 1998 catalog, but I found them in the 1996 catalog: HP-547A Current Tracer-- $975 ! I first saw these over 15 years ago-- the prices were *much* lower then! Ahhh, it looks like they don't make 'em no more. Bummer. But that was at most, two years ago. Not bad. On 9 Oct 1998 18:48:57 -0000 Eric Smith writes: >> Yep, that's the one! Boy, did you ever get lucky! Those current >tracers >> are $300-$400 a shot! And HP *still* makes these. >> Such a deal. > >Are you sure? I can't find them on the HP T&M web site. > >Last time I checked into it, HP wanted about $800 for them. > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From sieler2 at allegro.com Fri Oct 9 15:01:45 1998 From: sieler2 at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Old HP disk drives (HP 7925) available Message-ID: <199810092001.NAA25159@bart.allegro.com> Hi, David Largent, at Largent@MBRNET.INTEREX.ORG, has some old HP disk drives available (in Muncie, Indiana). The HP 7925 is a 120 MB disk with an HP-IB interface (removable disk pack). The HP 7933 is a 400 MB disk with an HP-IB interface (non-removable, although extremely closely related to the HP 7935, which is removable). The drives are about the size of a 2-drawer filing cabinet ... and heavier. If you're interested in them, contact him ... not me! His posting: > OK. With all this talk about the old venerable 7925 and 7933 disc > drives, it makes me realize that I still have a pair (a master and a > slave) of 7925s sitting here in a corner with boxes stacked on top of > them. They're left over from a 3000/42 that we sold years ago, and > were fully operational when they were disconneted. I think I even > have the manuals for them! > > We're going to be relocating our offices in a few weeks, and it makes > no sense to move them. Thus a few questions... > > - Does anybody want them? They're your's if you pay to get them > delivered to you. (We _might_ [read: probably not] even be willing > to share in the cost if you can offer a good home and there's not too > much cost involved.) > > - Assuming nobody wants them (or parts of them), what should I do w/ > them? A few ideas come to mind... > > - Haul them to the junk yard for scrap metal. > - Sell them for "precious metal". (Is there any in it???!) > - Leave them in the old building and let the new occupents > figure out what to do w/ them. (hehehe) > > Being the pack rat that I am, and a long-time, loyal HP customer, > it's difficult to think about simply hauling them off to the junk > yard. Seems like they at least deserve a burial or something! > > Now I'll sit back and wait for those "creative" (or real) suggestions > to start coming my way from the list. :-) > > -dll > > David L. Largent "My thoughts are my own, > Information Services Manager unless I choose to share them!" > The Gilbert Companies, Inc. Telephone: 765/284-4461 > P.O. Box 1032 Facsimile: 765/288-2079 > Muncie, Indiana 47308-1032 Email: Largent@MbrNet.Interex.Org > -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com http://www.allegro.com/sieler.html From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 9 15:23:18 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) Message-ID: <199810092023.AA06783@world.std.com> < When IBM was developing the 1401 emulation for the 360/30, they discover < that many customers were in fact using and dependent on undefined behavi < of the 1401. They had to emulate a lot of things that were never docume This was also true for undocumented PDP-8 series microcoded OPR instructions. In the later 8E and 8A and cmons parts there would be support for some of them. Other cpus with undocumented instruction are 8085, z80 and I'll bet a slew more. Those however the undocumented instructions were also copied and assured to work by licensed and non-licensed copies of the parts. Allison From dcoward at pressstart.com Fri Oct 9 15:43:38 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: "David Williams" North Star Horizon Help Message-ID: <19981009132126.03187131.in@mail.pressstart.com> RE: "David Williams" North Star Horizon Help I keep meaning to write up a Horizon troubleshooting guide because it seem that someone has these same problems about every 6 months. But I can't even seem to find the time to sit down and just design a logo graphic for my museum. OK here is a quick shoot at it. >Ok, I have a few minutes now to play around with the N* Horizon >I've been fixing up. I've tried to power it up and it seems to hit the >disk drive and then nothing. Good, if the drive light is coming on that saves some steps. On a normal load the drive light should be on for about 12 seconds. The first step would be to see if you are getting a READ error on the drive. 1. According to the MDS-A-D controller manual you can test for a read error at location 7C pin 6. This is the DI-GATE line and on a read error there will be a continuous stream of pulses on this line. This chip is 7 columns from the left side and 3 rows from the top and should be a 74LS00. I tried this out this morning. I could'nt find my logic probe so I used a voltmeter. With NO disk error 7C pin 6 stayed at 4.55 VDC. With a disk error this pin dropped to 1.91 VDC indicating pulses. If you are getting disk errors, it could be: * a blank or bad disk * a single density disk * a faulty disk drive * or a fault in the read circuit of the controller. Also check that the head carriage guide is in the spiral groove on the stepper motor cam of the disk drive. If you are not getting a disk error then it's narrowed down to a unpersonalized disk or serial communcations problems. 2. It would help for the next step to have a bus monitor card. These are like gold if you are dealing with S-100 bus systems on a regular basis. But you can also just use a bus extender card to allow you to get to the bus signals with your voltmeter. This morning I looked at the address bus after booting with a working DOS disk and with a unpersonalized DOS disk. With the standard version that loads at $2000, the I/O routines are normally placed at $2900-$2A00. The unpersonalized DOS has it I/O vectors pointing to themself like this: $200D C30D20 COUT JMP COUT THIS IS THE CHARACTER OUTPUT ROUTINE * Character must be in the B register. Device # may be in the ACC, if * desired. On return the character must also be in the ACC. No other * registers can be modified. Your routine must do a RET. * $2010 C31020 CIN JMP CIN THIS IS THE CHARACTER INPUT ROUTINE * Device # may be in the ACC, if desired. The 7 bit ascii code must be * returned in the ACC. No other registers can be modified. Your routine * must do a RET. * $2013 C31320 TINIT JMP TINIT THIS IS THE TERMINAL INIT ROUTINE * All registers can be used. If not needed, point to a RET. * $2016 C31620 CONC JMP CONC THIS IS THE CONTROL C DETECTION ROUTINE * Returns Z set if control C is typed, else returns Z cleared if other * character or no character is typed. All registers can be used. In both cases bit 13 of the address bus is alway active ($2000). With the unpersonalized disk the 8 lower bits were the ONLY other active lines. But with the working disk, bits 8-11 were also active. So, checking address bits 8-11 for activity should show you if DOS is really trying to communicate with your terminal. 3. I still can't find my manual for the Horizon that shows how to set the DIP headers (the "plugs" are called DIP headers). Here a RS-232 break-out box would be handy. If you don't have one, I would try setting the Horizon to 300 baud (with that switch in the back) and your terminal to 9600 baud. That should give you a couple of lines of garbage if any thing comes across the line. Remember to set your terminal to 8 bits, no parity, 1 stop bit, no flow control, and if you are using your PC as a terminal which would be best, emulate just a standard ANSI-BBS terminal. When I use my PC as a terminal, I use a straight through 25 wire ribbon cable, but try your Null Modem cable too. If you get the garbage then set your terminal to the same speed as the Horizon. And remember that the Horizon may not boot when powered on, you may have to hit the reset switch in the back. Let me know what you find. And I'll send the games to you next week (have to work this weekend). ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 9 15:51:27 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Morrow In-Reply-To: <361E59E6.F8DBDF6E@rain.org> Message-ID: We must be carefuyl to differentiate between companies that legitimately fold v ones such as World Power, where the intent had been to defraud. Although you can still lose money on unfulfilled orders from legitimate comnapnies that fold unexpectedly. Morrow seems to have been a company with integrity. But they misguessed some significant business issues. Such as betting the farm on the IRS portables contract. First the whole deal was delayed for quite a long time based on speculation about IBM's upcoming portable. Then they competed for a long time with the rumors about it - "It'll be a COLOR machine, that runs for a month on a flashlight battery, ..." Then, when the IRS contract was finally awarded, it went to Zenith who built the Morrow design with royalties, BUT the contract had been delayed until the point where the royalty agreement was running out. A few years ago, Howard Fullmer who had been the chief engineer died. I don't know details. Does anyone have a spare copy to sell of "Quotations from Chairman Morrow"? "Standards are wonderful - everyone should have a unique one of their own" -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 9 16:12:12 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Help with AES computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pivar Computing Services in Buffalo Grove, IL (708) 459-6010 could probably do that format if they are still around. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 9 12:31:11 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems In-Reply-To: <361D5C44.47284849@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Oct 8, 98 05:43:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1054 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981009/9053e2a2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 9 12:34:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Heathkit H8 vs. H-89 In-Reply-To: <199810090220.AA15242@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 8, 98 10:20:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 782 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981009/66285c0d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 9 12:37:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too In-Reply-To: <199810090321.AA01255@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 8, 98 11:21:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 983 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981009/8d0166fe/attachment.ksh From pb0aia at iaehv.nl Wed Oct 7 14:10:04 1998 From: pb0aia at iaehv.nl (Kees Stravers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Unknown Apple II Card / TRS-80 Model II Message-ID: <199810092248.AAA25204@IAEhv.nl> You can add these TRS-80 Model II links to your page: http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/modelii.html http://www.kjsl.com/trs80/trsother.html http://www.ncsc.dni.us/fun/user/tcc/cmuseum/trs80_m2.htm http://www.sincom.com/~jandtbos/model2.html I'm not sure about the last one, it doesn't seem to work anymore. Kees -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org Computer Home page - http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/ Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered From dcoward at pressstart.com Fri Oct 9 17:57:46 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Misc. Message-ID: <19981009153535.03934722.in@mail.pressstart.com> Kai said: > 1. The Altair prototype that was to be the cover photo for Popular > Electronics but was lost in shipment > 2. Xerox Alto > 3. Mark 8 > 4. Scelbi 8H > 5. Kenbak-1 > 6. Micral 8008 > 7. Apple I > 8. An unassembled Altair 8800 Kit > 9. Busicom Japan Intel 4004-based Calculator > 10. IBM 5100 You need to add my favorite - Intersil's Intercept Jr. Allison said: >7. Intel prompt-48 I have one of those I could trade. The only docs I have are 5 pages in the back of the MCS-48 manual. Never have tried powering it up. ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 9 17:55:46 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Help with AES computer? Message-ID: <199810092255.AA25522@world.std.com> < If a sample of those diskettes is available, I, or Allison, or lots of < others on this list could check it out and find out just what they have If it's softsector I have capability. If hardsector it's within my capability. I lack the financial incentive to persue building one time hardware/software effort being they are an organization. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 9 17:55:52 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems Message-ID: <199810092255.AA25536@world.std.com> < I can't think of a reliable troubleshooting technique that invloves < feeding unlimited current through the device. The next part to smoke may < not be the problem at all... I'd go further to say doing that assures the single point problem is not a multiple point problem assuming the damage is now not beyond repairable. Toasting chokes and transformers generally assures the tech a really nasty task of trying to find one compared to an easy one finding caps, resistors and semiconductors. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 9 17:55:59 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too Message-ID: <199810092255.AA25558@world.std.com> < The binaries are pretty much useless if you want to run on real hardware < In order to reconfigure unix you have to recompile from the sources. The < sources, though are affordable, and certainly some versions include < drivers for a lot of DEC drives, etc. But I think you need an MMU, so no < chance of running on an 11/03 Yep! depending on version you your really need sources. I have an 11/73 with RQDX3 and two RD52s and V7 running on a 10mb RL02 cart. Without sources all of the other disks unless older RK05s are useless. Also it doesn't use all the avalable ram. Fairly useless other than it's real unix. < > The question is however is there something else? I know fuzzball is < > around but I don't know if that is a option for most -11 users. < < IIRC Fuzzball needs an RT11 system to provide a lot of utilities (things < like PIP), the assembler, etc. It's not really stand-alone. Also problematic. Almost begs a new PD OS that is on the simple scale, buildable and patterned after RT or OS/8. Porting CPM68 (c source) to PDP-11 may be doable for a simple 64k memory (16bit). Porting C sources is not my area of expertize. Allison From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 9 17:36:13 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too In-Reply-To: "David C. Jenner" "Re: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too" (Oct 9, 10:00) References: <199810081629.AA10315@world.std.com> <361E4114.8F7BCDBA@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <9810092336.ZM5645@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 9, 10:00, David C. Jenner wrote: > This is a critical question. If there were only a small OS that ran > on a minimal -11 with floppies, there could be many more usable systems > out there. > > There are several other possibilities. The last two of these have > fairly liberal licensing restrictions (maybe none): > > - HT-11, the Heathkit version of RT-11 > - Xinu, which runs on an 11/03, but [...] > - FORTH, which is available in several different versions There's also a version of the UCSD p-System, which runs on a minimal -11, but that probably has licensing restrictions, too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 9 18:19:30 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Apple power supply problems In-Reply-To: <199810092255.AA25536@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 9, 98 06:55:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 681 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981010/70afb054/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 9 19:17:14 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Who wants 3480 1/2" tape carthridges? Message-ID: Who's the Canadian guy who said he wanted the box of 3480 1/2" tape carthridges and was supposed to send me shipping dough for them? I haven't heard from you since we last spoke. (Sorry, I forgot who you were). But this message is also to solicit anyone else who needs these. I've got a couple hundred. Used once, maybe twice, but otherwise they may as well be new. I think one application for these is an IBM AS/400. Just pay me shipping and they're yours. Otherwise I'll find some creative way to auction them on eBay and make a small fortune. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 9 19:20:52 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too In-Reply-To: <361E4114.8F7BCDBA@halcyon.com> References: <199810081629.AA10315@world.std.com> Message-ID: David C. Jenner wrote: >There are several other possibilities. The last two of these have >fairly liberal licensing restrictions (maybe none): > >- HT-11, the Heathkit version of RT-11 (circa Version 2?), which, if > you can find a copy, might have less restrictive licensing than the > "real" RT-11. On this it is my understanding that it was a fairly modified version of RT-11, and it won't run on a "real" PDP-11. >- FORTH, which is available in several different versions for a > minimal -11. From personal experience, however, I wouldn't want > to wish this on anybody but the most dedicated hackers. Perhaps > that describes well someone who is trying to use a small -11 now? Interesting. I'd always only considered FORTH to be a language. So can it provide a "OS" of sorts in the same sense that BASIC did on systems such as the VIC-20 and C-64? I took a quick look at the FORTH resources you listed, but they don't really seem to have anything to do with PDP-11's. Is there a better place to get information on it for the PDP-11? i.e. a DECUS directory in the Sunsite archive? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 9 19:22:44 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Help with AES computer? In-Reply-To: <199810092255.AA25522@world.std.com> Message-ID: > < If a sample of those diskettes is available, I, or Allison, or lots of > < others on this list could check it out and find out just what they have On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > If it's softsector I have capability. If hardsector it's within my > capability. I lack the financial incentive to persue building one > time hardware/software effort being they are an organization. Not mentioned in the original plea was how much money they're willing to throw at it. The fact that they had their staff attempt to BUILD an 8" drive MIGHT mean that they are willing to put something into it. Or might just mean that they're as crazy as we are. Other details not mention include that they might not be satisfied with just getting the data, and might want the Lanier WP files converted all the way into WordPervert or MsWeird files, etc. But several of the disk format conversion houses had AES/Lanier capability, so I don't think that there's really a problem. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Oct 9 19:54:14 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 9, 98 05:20:52 pm Message-ID: <199810100054.RAA32546@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 718 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981009/9dbe9d81/attachment.ksh From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Fri Oct 9 19:51:15 1998 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: DEC-clones from behind the old Iron Curtain. Message-ID: <199810100051.UAA07949@golden.net> Some of you might be interested in this great story and remarkable photographs. >Hello! > >I'd be honoured if you include my webpage about the Digital >PDP8, PDP11 and VAX compatible computers manufactured in Hungary >during the existance of the "Iron Curtain": > http://www.internetto.hu/muzeum/e_tpa.html > >I also have a PDP-11 tribute page at: > http://www.telnet.hu/hamster/pdp-11/ > >Thanks for your time! > > / ___ _ _ ___ ____ ___ ___ > /__//__///_///__ / /_ / ) Varga Akos Endre hamster@telnet.hu >/ // // /___/ / /__ / ( www.telnet.hu/hamster/english.html >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > My collection http://www.telnet.hu/hamster/decadence/e_index.html >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From rax at warbaby.com Fri Oct 9 21:06:04 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Internet Question Message-ID: Does anyone remember the cost of internet access/online time via Compuserve in the 80s ? I need to give a comparison of today's cost of sending a graphics file. R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. From kyrrin at jps.net Fri Oct 9 20:08:32 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Current Tracers In-Reply-To: <19981009.144248.222.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981009180832.009271f0@mail.jps.net> At 14:40 09-10-98 -0500, you wrote: >Holy smokes! You're right! They're not in the 1998 catalog, but I found >them in the 1996 catalog: HP-547A Current Tracer-- $975 ! My God... I just double-checked the model number on mine. Yep... 547A. Geez, and I though the Data I/O UniSite I got a few years ago was a coup! What makes the darn things so expensive? For that matter, what are some of the uses for it? I got it mainly as a curiousity, and as part of the purchase of my logic pulser, but if the thing is one of those Really Useful but Obscure tools, I'd like to know about it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Oct 9 21:04:23 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Hayes Message-ID: <19981010020424.23113.qmail@hotmail.com> Just so everyone knows, Hayes has filed for Bankruptcy.. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri Oct 9 21:13:39 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:16 2005 Subject: Hayes In-Reply-To: <19981010020424.23113.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Again? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > > Just so everyone knows, Hayes has filed for Bankruptcy.. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From djenner at halcyon.com Fri Oct 9 21:12:55 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too References: <199810081629.AA10315@world.std.com> Message-ID: <361EC2A7.1C94F739@halcyon.com> Here's another resource for FORTH: http://www.forth.org/ If you look through the FTP archives, you'll find the original FIG-FORTH for the PDP-11. The problem is, to make fundamental changes to the basic system, you need to have RT-11 (or RSX,..., something to run MACRO and create a bootable floppy). Once you have that floppy, however, you have a standalone OS/Compiler/Assembler/Editor/runtime that can accomplish quite a bit. What you really want is a system with a "meta-compiler" that runs under FORTH to regenerate the basic system, if you need to do so. I don't recall there being any systems with reasonable licensing (i.e., non-commercial) that do this for the PDP-11. As I said earlier, you should go the way of FORTH only if you are willing to be consumed by it--because you will be. You become the all-powerful creator and maintainer, and it becomes a religion. It does work very well on small systems (like an 11/03 with dual floppies) because that's where it originated. Zane H. Healy wrote: > >- FORTH, which is available in several different versions for a > > minimal -11. From personal experience, however, I wouldn't want > > to wish this on anybody but the most dedicated hackers. Perhaps > > that describes well someone who is trying to use a small -11 now? > > Interesting. I'd always only considered FORTH to be a language. So can it > provide a "OS" of sorts in the same sense that BASIC did on systems such as > the VIC-20 and C-64? > > I took a quick look at the FORTH resources you listed, but they don't > really seem to have anything to do with PDP-11's. Is there a better place > to get information on it for the PDP-11? i.e. a DECUS directory in the > Sunsite archive? From yowza at yowza.com Fri Oct 9 21:15:47 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Logic Analyzer In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981009180832.009271f0@mail.jps.net> Message-ID: I picked up a Gould 2710 Logic Analyzer today. It's one of the smaller LA's I've seen, but, of course, it's incomplete. It's got an edge connector on the back that wants a pod or probes or something connected to it that I don't have. I don't suppose anybody has some extra probes for this thing laying around, eh? Short of that, pin-outs for the edge connector might be useful if somebody has a manual. Thanks, Doug From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Fri Oct 9 17:43:45 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: P75 - UPDATE on CPU upgrade. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19981009180832.009271f0@mail.jps.net> Message-ID: <199810100219.WAA26900@commercial.cgocable.net> Doug, Replaced the original CPU with socket then used a 5V to 3.3V converter adapter with Intel 486DX4-100 writethrough type. My, OS/2 fly, memory checks guns through about 2.5 times as fast and video feel is much better. HD is really now is neckbottle at same transfer rate as before on DX33, when I have finanical means, replace that HD with used decent HD and finish the memory to 16MB. Ram cost me about $50 a pair new and I modified them for presence sense line setup, not hard only needs to add or remove soldered shorting thingys or piece of one or two strands off a wire. I suggest if you want to, find someone who does SMD rework that has hot air rework station to pull the CPU off. That is preferred method then clean out the holes, put in a top-quality 168 pin socket like AMP and go! Jaosn D. PS: Can use AMD 5x86-133 in WT mode and Intel OverDrive Processor Ready has 168 pin, (not OverDrive Processor which is 169 pin type) And most DX2 processors (not Cyrix please!) PSS: Hold on the net card I assure you I will get another $7 US at end of month to add to the $20 US dollar that I got from my birthday. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Oct 9 21:47:39 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Hayes Message-ID: <19981010024739.22085.qmail@hotmail.com> When was the last time? > >Again? > >George > >========================================================= >George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com >Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > >On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > >> >> Just so everyone knows, Hayes has filed for Bankruptcy.. >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Fri Oct 9 21:52:54 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: P75 - UPDATE on CPU upgrade. In-Reply-To: <199810100219.WAA26900@commercial.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Oct 1998 jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote: > Replaced the original CPU with socket then used a 5V to > 3.3V converter adapter with Intel 486DX4-100 writethrough type. Jeez, that thing was surface mounted, wasn't it? Nice upgrade! (BTW, now the whole world knows about it -- your message went to the list.) > I suggest if you want to, find someone who does SMD rework that has > hot air rework station to pull the CPU off. That is preferred method > then clean out the holes, put in a top-quality 168 pin socket like > AMP and go! I have a couple of old Toshiba T3400's that I'd like to do that to. You interested in a little side biz? > PSS: Hold on the net card I assure you I will get another $7 US at > end of month to add to the $20 US dollar that I got from my birthday. Oh man, don't send me your birthday money. I'm sending you the card. Happy birthday! -- Doug From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Fri Oct 9 18:23:06 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: P75 - UPDATE on CPU upgrade. In-Reply-To: References: <199810100219.WAA26900@commercial.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199810100258.WAA27627@commercial.cgocable.net> > On Fri, 9 Oct 1998 jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote: > > > Replaced the original CPU with socket then used a 5V to > > 3.3V converter adapter with Intel 486DX4-100 writethrough type. > > Jeez, that thing was surface mounted, wasn't it? Nice upgrade! (BTW, now > the whole world knows about it -- your message went to the list.) Actually PGA soldered in, all of 168 pins. (!!) And, I had to do hard way by hand with a WTCPS Weller 42W with medium screwdriver (rounded edges type). Man, many hours. Oh, I did to TP 700C to repair that seperated SMD joints and upgraded my LTE 386s/20 w/ AMD 386SX 25mhz and oscillator and that was nearly 3 years ago. Besides, I did many SMD swaps with that tools setup. > I have a couple of old Toshiba T3400's that I'd like to do that to. You > interested in a little side biz? Love to... Honestly, didn't see or worked on T3400's so no idea, info anyone? Did Tosh. released T3400 models with different CPU's in it? > Oh man, don't send me your birthday money. I'm sending you the card. > Happy birthday! LOL! (blushes) Thank you, Doug! Actually Sept 19th and now 26. > > -- Doug Jason D. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 9 22:35:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too Message-ID: <199810100335.AA24896@world.std.com> < On this it is my understanding that it was a fairly modified version of < RT-11, and it won't run on a "real" PDP-11. Most certainly did. the device drivers supplied are heath specific though for the disks only. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 9 22:35:32 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too Message-ID: <199810100335.AA25021@world.std.com> < Are the CPM68K sources available? Under what sort of license? < Visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site. MAIN SITE AT : http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm US MIRROR AT : http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm European Mirror at : http://cws86.kyamk.fi/mirrors/cpm/ Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 9 22:35:39 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Regarding PDP-11/ and rt11 too Message-ID: <199810100335.AA25097@world.std.com> < There's also a version of the UCSD p-System, which runs on a minimal -11 < but that probably has licensing restrictions, too. Runs nice on -11s but the license it far as I know even more tangled. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 9 22:35:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Misc. Message-ID: <199810100335.AA25170@world.std.com> < You need to add my favorite - Intersil's Intercept Jr. Good addition for an SBC, I wouldn't mind having on either. I do have the intersil 6960 sampler board. < Allison said: < >7. Intel prompt-48 < < I have one of those I could trade. < The only docs I have are 5 pages in the back of the MCS-48 < manual. Never have tried powering it up. Oh! Use to use one and know it well. Fun little box. Wouldn't mind having one for the SBC collection. Goes well with the IMSAI IMP48. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 9 22:35:52 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Internet Question Message-ID: <199810100335.AA25209@world.std.com> < Does anyone remember the cost of internet access/online time via Compuse < in the 80s ? I need to give a comparison of today's cost of sending a < graphics file. 1984 300 baud was 12.50hr connect time. 1986 1200baud was 12.50hr 1991 1200baud was 9.50hr 1994 2400 6.00hr I may be off some, it's a memory test. Compared to now, very expensive and graphic files were rarely sent before 86ish though there were up/downloads. Oh, internet mail was 1990 and roughly $0.15 a page additional I don't think sending binaries were possible then. Allison From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Fri Oct 9 21:17:05 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Internet Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Does anyone remember the cost of internet access/online time via Compuserve > in the 80s ? I need to give a comparison of today's cost of sending a > graphics file. Er...CompuServe didn't have Internet access in the 80s. For that matter, it doesn't really have it in the 90s but that's a matter of opinion. =-D Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Oct 9 22:34:17 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Current Tracers Message-ID: <19981009.223423.205.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Oh yeah, these things are like, mondo-cool. Generally, the logic pulser and current tracer are used together. A common failure mode for TTL and CMOS devices is you'll have a node in a circuit stuck low. Okay, you have a source driving two or more inputs. Who's weighing everything down? With the circuit in some steady state, start the pulser pulsing, and apply it to the pin that's the source. Place the tip of the current tracer on the trace that the source is attached to, and adjust the sensitivity control until the indicator light has some intensity. I think the light will blink at some intensity when it's set right-- Anyway, run the probe tip along the trace. If the light goes out, or goes dim, you passed the branch to where you pulses are going. You follow the pulses until you end up at the bad device and seriously impress the hell out of anybody watching. Why are these things so expensive? The element at the tip is an *EXTREMELY* sensitive hall-effect device, it's polarized (notice the little dot on the tip), and it's a seriously intense analog instrument in a teeny-weenie little package. But probably mostly because some people will pay just about anything for anything that's made by hp (nobody ever got fired for buying an HP product over something else). Anyway, so that's the low-down on current tracing (well, as good as I can remember, anyway). For random-logic, you just cant beat it. I think I still have an old applications bulletin around here someplace. . . . Jeff On Fri, 09 Oct 1998 18:08:32 -0700 Bruce Lane writes: >At 14:40 09-10-98 -0500, you wrote: > >>Holy smokes! You're right! They're not in the 1998 catalog, but I >found >>them in the 1996 catalog: HP-547A Current Tracer-- $975 ! > > > > My God... I just double-checked the model number on mine. > > Yep... 547A. Geez, and I though the Data I/O UniSite I got a >few years ago >was a coup! > > What makes the darn things so expensive? For that matter, what >are some of >the uses for it? I got it mainly as a curiousity, and as part of the >purchase of my logic pulser, but if the thing is one of those Really >Useful >but Obscure tools, I'd like to know about it. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: >http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) >SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in >our own >human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Oct 9 22:58:09 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Internet Question Message-ID: <199810100409.AAA02090@gate.usaor.net> El,, I agree about CompuServe, but one of the online services that I know of in the later 80's was Tandy's PC-Link. It came with DeskMate, and was text-only (I think). I'm not sure of the prices, because I never signed up, though. As for graphics, I don't thing there was much graphics. Most of it was text. -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Wirehead Prime > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Internet Question > Date: Friday, October 09, 1998 10:17 PM > > > > > Does anyone remember the cost of internet access/online time via Compuserve > > in the 80s ? I need to give a comparison of today's cost of sending a > > graphics file. > > Er...CompuServe didn't have Internet access in the 80s. For that matter, > it doesn't really have it in the 90s but that's a matter of opinion. =-D > > Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 9 23:16:01 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: <199810100335.AA25170@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > < You need to add my favorite - Intersil's Intercept Jr. > > Good addition for an SBC, I wouldn't mind having on either. I do have > the intersil 6960 sampler board. Speeaking of which, I found an interesting Intersil board at a vermin market (cheezier than a flea market) the other day. The silk screen mask on the board says "ICM 7235/36 EV/KIT". It has a 40-pin socket (empty) and two 14-pin sockets (empty) and a glass-enclosed LCD display that has the following format: 188:8.8 (so in other words it has one digit with only two segments, then 4 digits with all 7 segments and a colon and period). I can't figure out what the display would be used for. It has an edge connector for whatever purpose. Anyone know what this is? I wish I had a damn digital camera already so I could get a picture of this to share. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From kyrrin at jps.net Sat Oct 10 00:52:26 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Current Tracers In-Reply-To: <19981009.223423.205.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981009225226.009044d0@mail.jps.net> At 22:34 09-10-98 -0500, you wrote: >Oh yeah, these things are like, mondo-cool. Generally, the logic pulser >and current tracer are used together. A common failure mode for TTL >and CMOS devices is you'll have a node in a circuit stuck low. Wow... you know, that makes perfect sense. Thanks! Now I have a valuable troubleshooting hint. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Sat Oct 10 01:36:25 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Hayes In-Reply-To: <19981010024739.22085.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: My memory is fuzzy about this but I think it was about 10 years ago. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > > > > > When was the last time? > > > >Again? > > > >George > > > >========================================================= > >George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com > >Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > > > >On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > > > >> > >> Just so everyone knows, Hayes has filed for Bankruptcy.. > >> > >> ______________________________________________________ > >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >> > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sat Oct 10 01:18:54 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981009103703.63b7e398@ricochet.net> At 03:16 PM 10/7/98 +1000, you wrote: >What is the difference between the PC-8201 and the PC-8201A? I've got two >PC-8201As, and what *seems* to be an PC-8201. It's a different, bronze, >colour and has "NEC PC-8201" printed on the top left-hand corner. However, >the silver sticker on the bottom of the computer says it is a PC-8201A. The most obvious difference is the japanese characters on the keyboard. The "[" key in the lower right corner (next to the spacebar) is instead a toggle key (like capslock or grph) that switches into japanese mode. It also says "personal computer" under PC-8201 next to the screen, whereas my 8201a doesn't. On the back, the silver sticker is written in japanese. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sat Oct 10 01:18:58 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 (was Re: Convergent Technologies workSlate) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981009233359.63b7e220@ricochet.net> At 12:08 AM 10/8/98 -0400, you wrote: >The mention in this thread of a Kyocera-labeled product intrigues me, >as I'd never heard of such at the edge of the Pacific I was on then. The Kyocera KC-85 is well known, although not too common. The case is shaped more like the NEC, but it has the keyboard of the m100. P.S., come to VCF 3.0 and see all the variations (hopefully!) and check out the talk I'm going to do (hopefully!) on the history of all these machines. (If anyone has any info, history, or anecdotes, please get in touch!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sat Oct 10 01:18:56 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Top 10 sins of a computer scrapper Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981009103934.63b7ef44@ricochet.net> At 04:07 AM 10/7/98 EDT, you wrote: >Chameleon, I may have a manual or two. If you do, would you be interested in getting rid of them? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From marvin at rain.org Sat Oct 10 02:10:07 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: New Acquisitions References: <3.0.16.19981009103703.63b7e398@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <361F084F.8A92A4A5@rain.org> We've all heard talk about how great amateur radio events are for finding good stuff. Tonight, I went to the Ventura Amateur Radio Club annual auction and picked up some interesting stuff. $ 1.00 IBM TPC (Tempest version of the IBM PC) $ 5.00 Commodore 16 clean in the original box $ 5.00 NEC PC-8201A in the original box $ 1.00 Apple //e system w/ monitor, printer, numeric keypad $ 2.00 Apple //e system w/ monitor, printer $10.00 Commodore System w/ 1702 monitor, printer, etc. $ 1.00 Collection of Apple ][ software BTW, I have never seen (or heard) of the IBM TPC before. Anyone know how common these things are? Both the monitor and keyboard have shielded cables running to the box (as expected) and it looks like the box itself is a box within a box. From rax at warbaby.com Sat Oct 10 04:29:14 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Internet Question In-Reply-To: <199810100335.AA25209@world.std.com> Message-ID: >< Does anyone remember the cost of internet access/online time via Compuse >< in the 80s ? I need to give a comparison of today's cost of sending a >< graphics file. > Allison recalled: >1984 300 baud was 12.50hr connect time. >1986 1200baud was 12.50hr >1991 1200baud was 9.50hr >1994 2400 6.00hr > At 1980s rates, my Internet bill these days would be running about two grand a month. At 1980s speeds, I don't even want to think about it. Thanks for the memories... R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. From go at ao.com Sat Oct 10 03:43:15 1998 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Internet Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199810100843.BAA28207@office.ao.com> Don't you just love it when people decide to answer a question with the answer to a DIFFERENT question ... I don't remember Compuserve, since I signed up for that later, but when I signed up for the Source (Telecomputing Corporation of America) in 1979 the charges were: A. Monthly minimum $5.00 B. Connect time Prime 15.00 / hr C. Connect time Non-Prime 2.75 / hr D. Disc Storage 0.033 / 2048 character block / day E. Network Registration 100.00 (one time charge) And remember, this was before public Internet - your connection ONLY went to other Source members. I had Internet access through Oregon State, but it was *strictly* non-commercial - oh, the "good old days..." The system (from my other manuals) ran on Pr1me 650's. And the Source even provided (for a nominal charge) ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE programming manuals. What FUN! Gary At 06:06 PM 10/9/98 -0800, you wrote: >Does anyone remember the cost of internet access/online time via Compuserve >in the 80s ? I need to give a comparison of today's cost of sending a >graphics file. > >R. > >-- > > > >Warbaby >The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. >http://www.warbaby.com > >The MonkeyPool >WebSite Content Development >http://www.monkeypool.com > > > Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. > From heavy at ctesc.net Sat Oct 10 04:09:30 1998 From: heavy at ctesc.net (Jim Weiler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Hayes In-Reply-To: References: <19981010024739.22085.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Hayes' previous bankruptcy filing was in 1994. -Jim Weiler >My memory is fuzzy about this but I think it was about 10 years ago. > >George > >========================================================= >George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com >Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > >On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> When was the last time? >> > >> >Again? >> > >> >George >> > >> >========================================================= >> >George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com >> >Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com >> > >> >On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> Just so everyone knows, Hayes has filed for Bankruptcy.. >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> >> >> > >> > >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ mailto:native-sun@usa.net * Jim Weiler * http://pages.tstar.net/~heavy http://home.talkcity.com/HardDiskDr/yacccht/index.hyml ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From yowza at yowza.com Sat Oct 10 04:22:52 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Book Review: A Guide To Collecting Computers ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I picked up a ton of stuff at VCF, so I ended up with quite a toy backlog -- I still haven't had a chance to play with all my new toys. One of the things I picked up was a book by Kevin Stumpf, a sometime contributor to this list and long-time collector. I just finished reading it. One toy down! As far as I know, this book is unique -- the only book that talks about the art of computer collecting. It could have been titled "Best of ClassicCmp" -- the FAQ that should have been. Chapters cover where to find stuff, how to appraise your collection, logistics of taking possession, cataloging, storage, restoring, and useful things to do with old machines. Each chapter includes a story from Kevin's own experience, some generally useful advice, and a profile of a geek^H^H^H^H^H collector that you might even know personally (he didn't profile me :-(). There's a lot of good stuff in here, things you'd only come up with on your own after screwing up a few times first. Like shipping. I just got a computer today that was nicely packed except for one minor detail: the shipper didn't put a plastic bag around the computer, so I spent 10 minutes picking peanuts out of it. Kevin recommends double-boxing with a shock absorbing layer around the inner box (which also keeps peanuts out of the computer). Kevin is one of those Extreme Collectors that I hope I never become like :-) You know, the type that needs to rent a semi to haul an old mainframe back to his garage. The anecdotes alone make the book worth getting, but the tips make it a useful reference as well. My only complaint is that the advice is too general in spots, but at 150+ pages, it's still an ambitious effort. Wait, that's not my only complaint. It needs more pictures. (Haddock's book is great for microcomputer pictures, BTW.) Buy the book! I wish more collectors would start offering services that target other collectors (like Jim W's IMSAI parts supply). Who will be first to offer an old computer manual reprint service? (Similar services seem to be popular in the ham radio community.) If you can't wait until the next VCF, I think Kevin sells copies directly: kstumpf@unusual.on.ca +1 519 744-2900 -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Sat Oct 10 04:47:03 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: What was the first Unix micro? References: Message-ID: <361F2D17.680F6D3@cnct.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > > OK, if we can get one more, I think we'll have a lynch mob! Personally, > I'm considering giving up computer collecting and collecting Ward's > one-liners instead. > > Trivia Q: On which date did Ward offer his first politically incorrect > one-liner to the list? (I don't know the answer, but I'll run back to the > archives to start my collection once I know.) Well, what month did Bill Whitson start this mailing list? I've been using "politically incorrect" quotes in my signature since long before that, being extremely libertarian in my philosophy. If you want a collection of my sigs in Linux fortune format, those I have used, will use, thought were _too_ extreme (not many) or thought of using, send me email -- I need an excuse to actually put these things in order anyway. Oh, the keywords being "mass-produced" as in the way Eli Whitney invented for rifles and Henry Ford improved for automobiles, and "mass-marketed" as in advertised to the public at large, the answer IMAO (life is too short to have humble opinions) is the TRS-80 Model 16 with Xenix. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From yowza at yowza.com Sat Oct 10 04:52:08 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Book Review: The Origins of Digital Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Another toy down! This book is simply the best historical reference I've ever seen. I think it might be out of print, but places like amazon.com still seem to have it. It's nothing but a bunch of reprints, but check out what's reprinted here: On the Mathematical Powers of the Calculating Engine, C. Babbage (1837) Report of the Committee ... appointed to consider and to estimate the expense of constructing Mr. Babbage's Analytical Machine, and of printing tables by its means, C. W. Merrifield (1879) Babbage's Analytical Engine, H.P. Babbage (1910) On a Proposed Analytical Machine, P.E. Ludgate (1909) Essays on Automatics - Its Definition - Theoretical Extent of its Applications, L. Torres Y Quevedo (1914) Electromechanical Calculating Machines, L. Torres Y Quevedo (1920) Scheme of Assembly of a Machine Suitable for the Caclulations of Celestial Mechanics, L. Couffignal (1938) An Electric Tabulating System, H. Hollerith (1889) Calculating Machines: Their Principles and Evolution, L. Couffignal (1933) The Automatic Calculator IPM, H-J. Dreyey and A. Walther (1946) Method for Automatic Execution of Calculations with the aid of Computers, K. Zuse (1936) Technical Computing Machines, H. Schreyer (1939) The Outline of a Computer Development from Mechanics to Electronics, K. Zuse (1962) Proposed Automatic Calculating Machine, H.H. Aiken (1937) The Automatic Sequence Controlled Calculator, H.H. Aiken and G.M. Hopper (1946) Electronics and Computation, W.J. Eckert (1948) The IBM Card-Programmed Electronic Calculator, J.W Sheldon and L. Tatum (1951) Computer, G.R. Stibitz (1940) The Relay Interpolator, O. Cesarero (1946) The Ballistic Computer, J. Juley (1947) A Bell Telephone Laboratories' Computing Machine, F.L. Alt (1948) Binary Calculation, E.W. Phillips (1936) Computing Machine for the Solution of Large Systems of Linear Algebraic Equations, J.V. Atanasoff (1940) The Bletchley Machines, D. Michie (1972) The Use of High Speed Vacuum Tube Devices for Calculating, J.W. Mauchly (1942) The Electronic Numerical Integrator and Computer (ENIAC), H.H. Goldstine and A. Goldstine (1946) First Draft of a Report on the EDVAC, J. von Neumann (1945) Preparation of Problems for EDVAC-type Machines, J.W. Mauchly (1947) Preliminary Discussion of the Logical Design of an Electronic Computing Instrument, A.W. Burkes et al. (1946) Electronic Digital Computers, F.C. Williams and T. Kilburn (1948) The EDSAC, M.V. wilkes and W. Renwick (1949) The EDSAC Demonstration, B.H. Worsley (1949) Edited by Brain Randell, Springer-Verlag, ISBN 0-387-07114-8 -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Sat Oct 10 06:05:35 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: First Microprocessor (was Re: Corrections to trivia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > 4942516 : Single chip integrated circuit computer architectur > Issued: Jul 17, 1990 > http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?&patent_number=4942516 That's the one. So, what was the story with Hyatt? My understanding is that nobody holds a valid patent for the microprocessor. Here's a NY Times article from 1990 when Hyatt attempted to collect royalties based on his 1968 work: http://www.me.utexas.edu/~me179/topics/patents/case6articles/case6article1.html Here's an interview with Ted Hoff, including an analysis of the Hyatt patent: http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/hasrg/histsci/silicon%20genesis/tedbody-ntb.html I'm not a lawyer, but it sounds like Hyatt's patent was thrown out on a technicality: << As reported at 52 BNA's PTCJ 209, on May 10, 1996, the Commissioner of the PTO held that the prevailing applicant and prior inventor of an invention for a computer on an integrated circuit chip was properly denied a judgment because he elected to convert his application into a statutory invention registration. Claims in a Gilbert Hyatt patent 4,942,516 for a computer on a chip were declared invalid in an interference proceeding in September, 1995. Gary Boone of Texas Instruments, Inc. provoked an interference with the Hyatt patent by copying claims of the '516 patent into his pending application, which claimed a priority date of July 1971. >> -- Doug From oajones at bright.net Sat Oct 10 07:27:58 1998 From: oajones at bright.net (oajones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: FS: Hewlett Packard 90 Meter DDS Data Cartridges Message-ID: <361F52CE.1F1F@bright.net> I have a unopened box of Hewlett Packard 90 meter DDS Data Catridges (5 cartridges, 2 Gbytes before compression). I'm asking $10 plus shipping. Send me email if you are interested. --Alan -- Computing since: 1982, VIC-20, CoCo, PC, CP/M Military Computers: COMTRAN 10, Nida 250 Amateur Radio since: 1971, WN8JEF, KA6EXR, N8BGR, AA4ZI BASIC, dBASE, Assembly, C++ mailto: oajones@bright.net From rcini at email.msn.com Sat Oct 10 08:44:58 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Hayes Bankruptcy Message-ID: <002e01bdf454$db2afe20$5ff42399@mainoffice> This is the *second* bankruptcy for Hayes in 5 years. The last was in 1994 (emergence in 1996, I think). Maybe it's time to let someone else take a shot at running the company? Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin!/CW7 - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Collector of "classic" computers <========= reply separator ==========> From fauradon at pclink.com Sat Oct 10 09:07:49 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Book Review: A Guide To Collecting Computers ... Message-ID: <000d01bdf457$5dddf000$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> >Buy the book! I wish more collectors would start offering services that >target other collectors (like Jim W's IMSAI parts supply). Who will be >first to offer an old computer manual reprint service? (Similar services >seem to be popular in the ham radio community.) >-- Doug I thought WE were already doind that! Aren't WE? Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon From ddameron at earthlink.net Sat Oct 10 10:46:55 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Misc. Message-ID: <199810101546.IAA18937@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Hi Sam and all, At 09:16 PM 10/9/98 -0700, you wrote: >Speeaking of which, I found an interesting Intersil board at a vermin >market (cheezier than a flea market) the other day. The silk screen mask >on the board says "ICM 7235/36 EV/KIT". It has a 40-pin socket (empty) >and two 14-pin sockets (empty) and a glass-enclosed LCD display that has >the following format: 188:8.8 (so in other words it has one digit with >only two segments, then 4 digits with all 7 segments and a colon and >period). I can't figure out what the display would be used for. It has >an edge connector for whatever purpose. Anyone know what this is? I wish >I had a damn digital camera already so I could get a picture of this to > An Intersil 7235 is a 4 digit vacuum fluorescent driver chip, 40 pins. Input = mux. BCD/hex data. A 7236 is a 4 1/2 digit counter with a vacuum fluorescent driver like the 7235. Interesting that they have a common eval. board, my old Intersil cat. just says an evaluation kit is available for each one (separate numbers). -Dave From kyrrin at jps.net Sat Oct 10 02:21:04 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: RQDX2 & 3 jumpers Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981010002104.00935c30@mail.jps.net> I've posted jumper and cabling details of the RQDX2 and RQDX3 to my web site. With apologies for the lousy navigational interface (no Next/Previous keying yet), anyone who needs to can find it at: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin Follow the link tagged 'TechLinks' and scroll down near the bottom of the page. The info is in multiple .GIF files. Enjoy! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 10 13:39:21 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: How to identify comm hardware you pass up Message-ID: Hey, here's a tip. If you're interested in knowing to what use you can put that communications hardware you keep passing up at your preferred source for classic computers, get yourself a Glasgal Communications catalog. The older the better. Glasgal was a company that sold thousands of communications products, from cables & connectors to muxes & switches, and everything in between (and I'm talking everything). The catalog I have from them is 1987, and has some pretty interesting stuff in it, including things I've seen at thrift stores or surplus shops, or things I've worked with. This particular catalog is called "System/Configuration Guide and Product Listing". So not only does it describe their complete product line but it also goes into technical discussions about certain products and their applications, including diagrams. Its basically a tutorial on how to hook up and use the products they are selling. It is very thorough and extraordinarily useful if you'd like to start building your own communcations network between disparate computer storage sites with old comm hardware. I found this particular catalog in a thrift store. Alas (homage to Tony :), Glasgal doesn't seem to be around anymore. I just made a bunch of calls, first to the number in the catalog, then to toll-free directory assistance, then to directory assistance in New Jersey, with no success. I then did a web search on "Glasgal Communications" and found this on a stock market discussion BBS: "WE ARE MANUFACTURERS OF HIGH QUALITY EMPTY GLASS BOTTLES. WE PRODUCE BOTTLES IN TWO COLORS AMBER & WHITE. WE ARE SUPPLYING TO THE LIQUOR, PHARMACEUTICAL, FOOD BEVERAGES AND COSMETICS INDUSTRIES ALL OVER THE WORLD." So either Glasgal Communications has radically altered its business plan or some new company has commandeered their name. If you run across a Glasgal Communications catalog from days gone by, grab it. This also applies to old Black Box catalogs (whom still exist) because if their old catalogs have the same format of their current catalogs, you can expect the same type of helpful information. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Sat Oct 10 15:38:54 1998 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: FW: VS2000 Color Video Board for shipping cost. Message-ID: <3620c5af.482687878@smtp.wa.jps.net> Check this out... -=-=- -=-=- From: "Mike O'Malley" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: VAXstation 2000 Hardware Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:37:36 -0600 Organization: Flashnet Communications, http://www.flash.net Lines: 13 Message-ID: <6vo5ri$m76$1@excalibur.flash.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p69.amax2.dialup.abq2.flash.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news-sea-20.sprintlink.net!207.12.55.130!news-west.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!nntprelay.mathworks.com!nntp.flash.net!excalibur.flash.net!not-for-mail I have one VAXstation 2000 board. - VS40X 4 Plane Color Graphics You want it, I send it. You pay the shipping. Please send request to mike_omalley@usa.net ...Mike ---------------- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) jps [dot] net Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 10 14:54:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Current Tracers In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981009180832.009271f0@mail.jps.net> from "Bruce Lane" at Oct 9, 98 06:08:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1130 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981010/03a97583/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 10 15:04:44 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 9, 98 09:16:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 932 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981010/a55daa30/attachment.ksh From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sat Oct 10 19:00:40 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Universal drive In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981005102832.00ced620@pc> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, John Foust wrote: > At 09:03 AM 10/4/98 -0400, Doug Spence wrote: > >There was a commercial product called either DOS-2-DOS or DISK-2-DISK (I > >forget which) which was able to access 1541 disks on a filesystem level, > >for reading AND writing. > > That company was Central Coast Software, run by George Chamberlin. > He sold out to New Horizons, another pioneer Amiga company. Eventually > NH's assets (including all the source code) were auctioned off and > went at a discount price to a Canajun company whose name included > the word "wonder", and I don't know what happened to it after that. I looked back into my archives and found that some of the New Horizons stuff went to SoftWood, including ProWrite. Wonder Computers started their Lazarus Engineering division based mostly on old NH stuff, I think. According to a post I found from Jason Compton, some stuff went to Quasar Distribution, Australia. Jason was the spokesman for Wonder at around this time. Lazarus Engineering at least managed to get a new version of DesignWorks out the door before Wonder went belly up. (They're back in business as a smaller Amiga store chain, but I don't know if Lazarus Engineering is still with us.) BTW: I found this post from you on this subject: >From: syndesis@beta.inc.net (John Foust) >Subject: New Horizons liquidation >Date: 5 Apr 1995 15:54:46 GMT > >I missed the start of this thread, but when I called the >lawyer listed in the description, she said "they didn't >authorize that posting, it was done by a creditor who >took it upon herself." Sounds like someone wanted some >money. > >Either way, Softwood got quite a deal... even as used >floppies, they're still worth 10 to 25 cents each, and >the white generic boxes might be worth twice that... >not to mention the value of the mailing list being sold >and re-sold. You can still rent C-64 mailing lists. > >What was called "Lot 2" is still available, as the source >code for everything except Disk-2-Disk, minus the inventory, >which somehow went to Softwood, too, in court a few weeks ago, >for $2,250. [Back to today] > I bid in the auction and missed it by a few hundred bucks. I wanted to > take all their products, source and docs, and sell them on a CD as is. That would have been excellent. I've tried the Disk-2-Disk demo version that can be found on Aminet, and the parts that weren't crippled do indeed seem to work. I guess most of the demand for this kind of utility fell off sharply in the first few years of the Amiga's existence as the user flow from C64 to Amiga died. > - John -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Oct 10 19:41:54 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: New Acquisitions In-Reply-To: <361F084F.8A92A4A5@rain.org> Message-ID: <199810110443.AAA28365@smtp.interlog.com> On 10 Oct 98 at 0:10, Marvin wrote: > We've all heard talk about how great amateur radio events are for finding > good stuff. Tonight, I went to the Ventura Amateur Radio Club annual > auction and picked up some interesting stuff. > > $ 1.00 IBM TPC (Tempest version of the IBM PC) > $ 5.00 Commodore 16 clean in the original box > $ 5.00 NEC PC-8201A in the original box > $ 1.00 Apple //e system w/ monitor, printer, numeric keypad > $ 2.00 Apple //e system w/ monitor, printer > $10.00 Commodore System w/ 1702 monitor, printer, etc. > $ 1.00 Collection of Apple ][ software > > BTW, I have never seen (or heard) of the IBM TPC before. Anyone know how > common these things are? Both the monitor and keyboard have shielded cables > running to the box (as expected) and it looks like the box itself is a box > within a box. > Damn, with some of the prices you californy guys pick stuff up at , my collection is rapidly losing value. Even at the low-level of the $Can I couldn't get back my investment. I see 1702s going for $40 at least on CSA2 . Maybe the guys selling at real prices live in Minnesota or Arkansas. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Oct 10 19:41:55 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: New Find Message-ID: <199810110443.AAA28384@smtp.interlog.com> I keep adding to my collection regularly but this is notable. A Kaypro II to go with my (as yet non-functioning) Kaypro 2X. It was in an incredibly jammed little junk-store which remains unplumbed by me for now. In Sam's catergization scheme ,this would rate as a cockroach-market There were 2 walls piled high in a narrow shop with everything imagineable , leather jackets, jeans and toasters just tossed in a pile on top of each other with barely enough room to get between. Saw lots of old printers and monitors but at the bottom of one pile I could barely discern that tell-tale Darth Vader Blue form. It was dusty and dirty on the outside but clean-uppable and when I opened it up at home the KB was impeccably clean. It had cardboard inserts to protect the fdds, and the A drive's insert had a bill for $565 ($185 parts) with the owners name and phone number. I surmise the owner was told the price and never reclaimed it. Sounds like I have a Refurbished machine here ! :^)) ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Oct 10 19:41:53 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Internet Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199810110443.AAA28395@smtp.interlog.com> On 9 Oct 98 at 21:17, Wirehead Prime wrote: > > > > Does anyone remember the cost of internet access/online time via Compuserve > > in the 80s ? I need to give a comparison of today's cost of sending a > > graphics file. > > Er...CompuServe didn't have Internet access in the 80s. For that matter, > it doesn't really have it in the 90s but that's a matter of opinion. =-D > > Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > Does that mean that all those free subscription I've got that came with hardware are now worthless ? Bummer ! I'll have to file them with the old Q-linc disks in the bottom drawers ciao larry. lwalker@interlog.com From yowza at yowza.com Sat Oct 10 23:46:50 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: What was the first Unix micro? In-Reply-To: <361F2D17.680F6D3@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Oct 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Oh, the keywords being "mass-produced" as in the way Eli Whitney > invented for rifles and Henry Ford improved for automobiles, and > "mass-marketed" as in advertised to the public at large, the answer > IMAO (life is too short to have humble opinions) is the TRS-80 > Model 16 with Xenix. I guess mass-marketing in the 80's meant TV ads, so did Tandy advertise this thing on TV? BTW, it was mentioned previously that the first micro port of Unix (non-DEC) was to a Z8000 box. Here's a 1981 brochure for Zilog's System 8000 running ZEUS: http://www.ifeb.se/obs/zilog.html -- Doug From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Oct 11 00:22:28 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards Message-ID: <199810110522.XAA02995@calico.litterbox.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 765 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981010/4a2be701/attachment.ksh From hhacker at gte.net Sun Oct 11 01:13:56 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: New Acquisitions Message-ID: <05a001bdf4de$5542a530$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> I worked at the Los Angeles Air Force Base in the mid 80's and one of the requirements for personal computers of the time was called TEMPEST. Computers meeting the TEMPEST specification contained such hardware as necessary in order to ensure that electromagnetic radiation emitted from the computer would not be able to be monitored in such a way as to determine the use to which the computer was being put. More simply, one would not be able to eavesdrop on the computer user, since there would be no discernable message in any electromagnetic radiation coming from the computer. Perhaps this is what you have. This would explain the extra shielding on cables and the double walled chassis. -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, October 10, 1998 12:10 AM Subject: New Acquisitions >We've all heard talk about how great amateur radio events are for finding >good stuff. Tonight, I went to the Ventura Amateur Radio Club annual >auction and picked up some interesting stuff. > >$ 1.00 IBM TPC (Tempest version of the IBM PC) >$ 5.00 Commodore 16 clean in the original box >$ 5.00 NEC PC-8201A in the original box >$ 1.00 Apple //e system w/ monitor, printer, numeric keypad >$ 2.00 Apple //e system w/ monitor, printer >$10.00 Commodore System w/ 1702 monitor, printer, etc. >$ 1.00 Collection of Apple ][ software > >BTW, I have never seen (or heard) of the IBM TPC before. Anyone know how >common these things are? Both the monitor and keyboard have shielded cables >running to the box (as expected) and it looks like the box itself is a box >within a box. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Oct 11 01:30:20 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting In-Reply-To: <199810062146.QAA18913@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, David Williams wrote: > > I also 'always wanted' a CompuColor II, and finally found one last year, > > it's REALLY rare. http://www.geocities.com/~compcloset/CompuColorII.htm > > That's the one. I've found a couple of collectors who had them and > a few people who have worked with them but that's it. Yes, I'd > class those as rare. And dammit, I knew of someone who had a broken one and was trying to get rid of it. It was a friend of my brother's, and my brother asked me if I knew anyone who might want it. I said "I'll take it". He said, "No, _really_, do you know anyone who would want it?". I said "Yeah, me" - no, really. That was when I was probably 13 or 14, and I hadn't yet collected any systems (who could afford it?). Nor would I have known how to repair the thing (still don't). Maybe I should try to find out what eventually DID happen to the thing. I'm sure it's a landfill pancake by now, but you never know. -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Oct 11 01:36:27 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Fairchild Channel F (was: Re: Corrections to trivia) In-Reply-To: <19981006232629.19878.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 6 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > I might, however, get out the old Fairchild Channel F video game system > tonight and play a few hands of blackjack on an F8. Speaking of which... how common are the Channel Fs? I picked up several cartridges for one some time ago, but I've never seen the actual unit. I've only seen ads for them in old magazines. > Eric -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Oct 11 01:47:22 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Vaporware (and not) from '83 CES In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > New computers announced at the 1983 CES: > > Vaporware? Please respond if you KNOW any of these exist for SURE. > > - TI 99/2 (Supposedly $100, including 4.2K RAM) A few examples were made. > - TI CC-40 (Compact Computer 40, laptop like Epson HX-20, 4 AA cells, 31 > character LCD display, $249) I extracted the following CC-40 sales information from comp.sys.ti in December of 1994: Jim Lesher, 722 Huntley, Dallas TX 75214, 214 821 9274 f.e. the following: CC40 Computers 6K $50.00 CC40 Computers 18K $70.00 8K Ram $35.00 16K Ram $35.00 manuals,... $10.00 S&H 10% Minimum $3 I of course have no idea if the information is still valid. Apparently the units were _NEW_, not second hand or refurbished. > - Video Technology VZ200 (Z80, 4K, MS BASIC, $99) I found a web page dedicated to the VZ200 some time ago, but I don't remember where it was now. :/ > Kai -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Oct 11 03:57:11 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <199810081629.AA09702@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > < them. I don't have the Nina, the Pinta or the Santa Maria in my > < collection, so Columbus never "discovered America". I don't have an > > Technically he didn't. He discoverd the Caribian islands. BUT, by not > falling off the flat earth and finding something out there others would > come and actually touch the Amrican contenents. So, is Columbus less important because the Vikings reached the Americas before him? Or is it only important that most of the lasting effects descend from Columbus? Yes this is OT, but it mirrors one of the recent arguments on ClassicCmp, and it could be argued either way because both arguments have validity. It comes down to what the individual thinks is 'important'. -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From fauradon at pclink.com Sun Oct 11 09:26:25 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: Fairchild Channel F (was: Re: Corrections to trivia) Message-ID: <000801bdf523$2183fb00$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Hi I could pick one up for you if you want, there's on that has been around a thrift store here for some time now. They want $25 for it but I can negotiate. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon >Speaking of which... how common are the Channel Fs? I picked up several >cartridges for one some time ago, but I've never seen the actual unit. >I've only seen ads for them in old magazines. > >-- >Doug Spence >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca >http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ > > From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Oct 11 09:50:39 1998 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:17 2005 Subject: FW: FREE HP3000 Message-ID: <199810111450.KAA16180@quartz.netsync.net> Just passing this on.... Reply to the fellow who wrote the orig. NG message! Found this in comp.sys.hp.hardware: >From: Alec Gagne >Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp.mpe,comp.sys.hp.hardware,comp.sys.hp >Subject: FREE HP3000 >Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 01:14:27 -0700 > >Free, to a good home! > > HP3000 Series 37 Mini Computer > Series 37 CPU > 1 Meg RAM > 7 Ports (6 ATP and 1 ADCC) > 2 HP7945 55 MB Disk Drives > 3 HPIB cables > 1 HP9144 1/4 inch Tape Drive w/about 10 tapes. > 1 HP Cabinet with internal rails > 1 HP2392A 14 inch Terminal & Keyboard > > ( About the size of a Full Tower PC but twice as thick ) > >The machine loads to MPE V-Delta-5 (Version G.B3.05) operating system >I have the an original OS load tape. > >Everything is in GOOD condition, and it runs! I used it as a >development machine for writing COBOL code up until last year. > >I tried to sell it, but nobody was interested. The computer junk >dealers will "take it off my hands" for scrap. I would rather give >it away to someone/anyone who needs it/wants it or just wants to >learn about it, than have it scapped for parts. > >The only loop hole is you have to come pick it up. It is heavy and >expensive to ship, and I don't particularly want to haul it down to >the UPS office. > >I am in San Jose California. >First come first serve, limited quantity (1). > > >Regards > >Alec > > >-- >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > Eclipse Systems -- Business & Public Sector Solutions Since 1989 > P.O. Box 53435 San Jose, California 95153 USA (408) 362-1651 > http://www.eclipsesystems.com > > Provider of CrimeStar -- http://www.CrimeStar.net >-------------------------------------------------------------------- Happy HP collecting! --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Oct 11 09:55:02 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: MAC Portables (The BIG ones) Message-ID: <19981011.095513.212.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: Are there any of you out there looking for these beasts? I know somebody who's got a 5120 and a 5126. He's asking $50 each (too high in my opinion), but the price ought to be negotiable. I know he also has at least one power brick, and an NOS portable battery charger (M0275). Send me personal e-mail if there is any interest. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Oct 11 10:50:53 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: <199810110522.XAA02995@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Oct 10, 98 11:22:28 pm Message-ID: <199810111550.IAA10716@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1153 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981011/8e771920/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 11 10:56:10 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards Message-ID: <199810111556.AA21932@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3620E79D.BC8BEDC9@rain.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Good think you didn't run it through the dry cycle, or chips like the PLA > might short out (very sensitive to heat). Are you sure the soap wouldn't > have hurt the solder or board traces, though? Soap won't hurt either the solder or the copper traces. Hard water can leave deposits on the board when it drys, and if *I* were to use the dishwasher, I would do a final rinse in either distilled or DI water before drying. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 11 10:46:53 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: What was the first Unix micro? In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Oct 10, 98 11:46:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 495 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981011/fac6e1c4/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 11 12:46:12 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: RQDX2 & 3 jumpers In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981010002104.00935c30@mail.jps.net> Message-ID: Bruce Lane spoke: > I've posted jumper and cabling details of the RQDX2 and RQDX3 to my web >site. With apologies for the lousy navigational interface (no Next/Previous >keying yet), anyone who needs to can find it at: > > http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin > > Follow the link tagged 'TechLinks' and scroll down near the bottom >of the >page. The info is in multiple .GIF files. > > Enjoy! Great! This answers some of my questions. Now to show what an ingrate I am, does anyone have any info on the following jumpers: W12 W13 W14 W15 W16 W17 W23 -- I think this is for what kind of cabinet that the card is in. Also curiosity makes me ask what was on the missing page 4-45? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From yowza at yowza.com Sun Oct 11 12:55:57 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: What was the first Unix micro? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > Zilog's System 8000 running ZEUS: > > http://www.ifeb.se/obs/zilog.html > > Are those machines common on this list? The reason I had the URL handy is because I spotted one this weekend. This one has a bunch of spare cards in the empty cab of the bottom module, including a CPU card with an AMD-made Z8000 on it. The spares were fairly early vintage. The plugged-in CPU card was a bit odd. It was 1986/1987 vintage and appeared to have Z80000-series chips (yes, that has the right number of zeros). I remember Zilog making a Z80000, but I don't know any details. Was it Z8000-compatible? This particular machine is labeled as a Zilog asset, so there's a chance it includes goodies that didn't make it into the real world. Sam is making room for it in his garage as we speak :-) -- Doug From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Oct 11 12:59:54 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Seeking: Lisa/Mac XL 'Do it yourself guide' Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981011105954.032f49ac@agora.rdrop.com> The title pretty much says it all... Having (finally) added a LISA to the collection, I'm looking for a copy of the Sun Remarketing book on the LISA/Mac XL. Anyone out there have one that they could be parted from, or induced to feed thru a copier/scanner? ...and yes, I've seen the one on eBay... it's getting real expensive already (sigh) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 11 10:56:17 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810111556.AA21961@world.std.com> < So, is Columbus less important because the Vikings reached the Americas < before him? Or is it only important that most of the lasting effects < descend from Columbus? since I'm not a student of this general branch of history I can't comment accuractly. It would seem to me the big differnece was the wave of colonization that resulted. Better put, the vikings were here. Columbus told the world two things, it's not flat and there are great riches in the east. Somewhere in ther is the difference in those explorations goals. < Yes this is OT, but it mirrors one of the recent arguments on ClassicCmp < and it could be argued either way because both arguments have validity. < It comes down to what the individual thinks is 'important'. True. The consideration is not the indiviual importance of any item but it's impact on the collective picture. What is significant is the picture was in some respects a collection of snapshots in time without continuity or context. There were/are pieces missing from the puzzle and it would be nice to fill them in. For example; Two of the oldest computing models Harvard and Von Neuman date back to the first machines yet they influence machines still. To make the picture complete we also need to know if there are other models and what they are. An aside to this is while Intel is currently the apparent successful leader en masse we still don't know how it will play over time yet to come. There have been near reversals in the past and it would only take the next design leap to change the current course. Also the industry is only 30 years old in a century where we are still developing fundemental technologies. My example for that is in the late 70s and early '80s everyone said that 16bit CPUs would wipe the 8bitters away. It sorta did, but not to the projected extent. There would be a wave of 8bitters like the Kaypro, ampro, SB180 to name a few in the 84-86 window and later. The 16 bit machine really didn't reflect enough of an improvement as the next level needed more. I'd say Apple knew (tripped on) this when they did the jump from 6502 to 68000 (internally 32bit). It would be 32 bit cpus that would have the real impact. I expect that while Merced and Alpha are having an impact we have yet to see the next significant impactor. While we are going much faster, the way we compute is still logically similar to some very old machines. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 11 13:23:52 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards Message-ID: <199810111823.AA28219@world.std.com> ckaiser@oa.ptloma.edu hath spoke: < Good think you didn't run it through the dry cycle, or chips like the PL < might short out (very sensitive to heat). The dry cycle is ok if the temperature is under 180f, too hot and it can over heat parts. I prefer the oven at 160-180f as it's drier and a bit faster. A blast of compressed air is also good for getting water out from under parts to hasten drying. The PALS while temperature sensitive and no more so than any of the LSI on the board. < Are you sure the soap wouldn't have hurt the solder or board traces, < though? Your kidding? Soap will not hurt the solder or the boards. How do you think assembled boards are cleaned commercially? Allison From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Oct 11 14:44:02 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Fairchild Channel F References: <199810110702.AAA23603@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <36210A81.6AECD38F@goldrush.com> > From: Doug Spence > Subject: Fairchild Channel F (was: Re: Corrections to trivia) > > On 6 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > > > I might, however, get out the old Fairchild Channel F video game system > > tonight and play a few hands of blackjack on an F8. > > Speaking of which... how common are the Channel Fs? I picked up several > cartridges for one some time ago, but I've never seen the actual unit. > I've only seen ads for them in old magazines. > Well I recall they were sold by Montgomery Wards in the U.S. for a couple years also the carts I had once bought had Macy's or some other retail chain's tags on them, so they were well mechandised. But they are somewhat uncommon nowadays. The Atari 2600 beat them out of business though, pitty, the Fairchild had some of the coolest joysticks (controls were left, right, up, down, twist left, twist right, fire (and I think push down)) -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From kyrrin at jps.net Sun Oct 11 13:50:46 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: RQDX2 & 3 jumpers In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19981010002104.00935c30@mail.jps.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981011115046.00947cf0@mail.jps.net> At 10:46 11-10-98 -0700, you wrote: >Also curiosity makes me ask what was on the missing page 4-45? Mostly part numbers for DEC cables and such. I figured it wouldn't be that useful to folks, so I left it out. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at jps.net Sun Oct 11 13:52:44 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: SCO Unix (Older version) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981011115244.009484f0@mail.jps.net> FWIW, I've listed an older version of SCO Unix up on Haggle. The URL is: http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201787290 Caveat emptor! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 11 14:07:13 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Seeking: Lisa/Mac XL 'Do it yourself guide' In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981011105954.032f49ac@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, James Willing wrote: > Having (finally) added a LISA to the collection, I'm looking for a copy of > the Sun Remarketing book on the LISA/Mac XL. Knock yourself out: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~marionba/lisatech/ Thanks, Marion! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 11 14:55:15 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <199810111556.AA21961@world.std.com> Message-ID: > < So, is Columbus less important because the Vikings reached the Americas > < before him? Or is it only important that most of the lasting effects > < descend from Columbus? Columbus is a superb analogy for this thread! Not that the results necessarily match, but that MANY related issues are also present. Columbus is the "canonical" discoverer, in spite of the Vikings, or even the previously existing "colonists" who had been living there for a LONG time ever since coming over the Bering straits? Likewise, the Intel 4004 is the "canonical" first microprocessor, in spite of other previous units that might or might not meet various definitions. > since I'm not a student of this general branch of history I can't comment > . . . > Better put, the vikings were here. Columbus told the world two things, > it's not flat and there are great riches in the east. Somewhere in ther > is the difference in those explorations goals. Since FEW have ever heard anything about this other than TOTAL BS in school, it bears looking at some of the distortions. What is taught in school is even less accurate than would be a history of computers by MS, IBM, Intel, or Apple. In line with the use of it as an analogy, it is useful to look at how distorted it has become, and realize that the same thing happens quite quickly in fields such as ours. Commerce with the Indies (and the rest of the East) was well established, but quite costly. Columbus did NOT tell the world that it wasn't flat. By the time of Columbus, that was well known and accepted by all educated people. The only ones who still thought that it was flat are now paying dollars per minute for telephone psychic readings. Although there were some fears of dangers, sailing off the edge was NOT taken seriously as a possibility by anybody with any education. In fact, it was accepted that you COULD get to the Indies by going west; it was just too far going that way. Even the diameter and circumference of the earth had been reasonably accurately computed (showing that the shortest route to the Indies was still to the east). But Columbus had an inaccurate, wrong, crackpot theory that the earth was about one third the size that had been calculated. Thus, he was convinced that it WOULD be shorter going west. There are a lot of other issues involved with his funding, etc. He set off, and lo and behold, encountered land somewhere near to where the Indies would have been if he had been right about his 1/3 size theory. BTW, his very first recorded words about the existing inhabitants were: "a good source for slaves". > An aside to this is while Intel is currently the apparent successful > leader en masse we still don't know how it will play over time yet to > come. There have been near reversals in the past and it would only take > the next design leap to change the current course. Also the industry is > only 30 years old in a century where we are still developing fundemental > technologies. Perhaps I'm cynical, ... But I maintain that what determines the course of the industry is NOT the quality of the technology, but the marketing. How else do you explain the successes of IBM, MS, etc.? Surely not due to their superior quality?!? > impact we have yet to see the next significant impactor. While we are > going much faster, the way we compute is still logically similar to some > very old machines. And massive improvements in hardware performance have been necessary just to compensate for progressively less efficient software. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From yowza at yowza.com Sun Oct 11 15:16:23 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Perhaps I'm cynical, ... > But I maintain that what determines the course of the industry is NOT the > quality of the technology, but the marketing. How else do you explain > the successes of IBM, MS, etc.? Surely not due to their superior > quality?!? No, not the "M" word! We just had a "marketing" thread and the term was tossed around like it was this magical thing that was responsible for everything that couldn't be explained by technical merit. First of all, IBM can hardly be called successful. *In spite* of all the "marketing" they did, Taiwanese with no marketing at all were able to completely erode their PC market share. Microsoft is certainly successful, but do you honestly believe it's due to their inane marketing? Puuhlease! They own the API, and their platform has huge momentum due to the number of software titles available for it. You can't fight that momentum with mere technical superiority, and certainly not with "marketing." -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Sun Oct 11 15:25:50 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: What was the first Unix micro? References: Message-ID: <3621144E.D179D871@cnct.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > > On Sat, 10 Oct 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > > Oh, the keywords being "mass-produced" as in the way Eli Whitney > > invented for rifles and Henry Ford improved for automobiles, and > > "mass-marketed" as in advertised to the public at large, the answer > > IMAO (life is too short to have humble opinions) is the TRS-80 > > Model 16 with Xenix. > > I guess mass-marketing in the 80's meant TV ads, so did Tandy advertise > this thing on TV? BTW, it was mentioned previously that the first micro > port of Unix (non-DEC) was to a Z8000 box. Here's a 1981 brochure for > Zilog's System 8000 running ZEUS: > http://www.ifeb.se/obs/zilog.html No, I don't recall the machine being plugged on the tube. But it was in the Radio Shack catalogs which were at the time available from more outlets than were Big Macs (hamburgers, not computers). I recall mention of the Zilog box in a couple of magazines. Never had any idea where one could be purchased, and I tended to visit damned near every retail computer outlet in the Los Angeles basin at least a couple of times a year to see what was happening in the rest of the world. (Admittedly, I didn't bother with Sears, but I knew everything they had there from other sources). -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 11 15:24:39 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > > Perhaps I'm cynical, ... > > But I maintain that what determines the course of the industry is NOT the > > quality of the technology, but the marketing. How else do you explain > > the successes of IBM, MS, etc.? Surely not due to their superior > > quality?!? > > No, not the "M" word! We just had a "marketing" thread and the term was > tossed around like it was this magical thing that was responsible for > everything that couldn't be explained by technical merit. It doesn't explain everything, but you'd be a fool to think marketing is not responsible for at least 50% of a product's success (and that's being conservative). > First of all, IBM can hardly be called successful. *In spite* of all the > "marketing" they did, Taiwanese with no marketing at all were able to > completely erode their PC market share. Let me get this straight...you're saying IBM can hardly be called successful? This must be a typo. > Microsoft is certainly successful, but do you honestly believe it's due to > their inane marketing? Puuhlease! They own the API, and their platform > has huge momentum due to the number of software titles available for it. > You can't fight that momentum with mere technical superiority, and > certainly not with "marketing." Sure, take the easy example of Microsoft, which was a fluke. They rode the coattails of IBM and through sheer luck and determination ended up where they did today. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 11 14:06:10 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: RQDX2 & 3 jumpers In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: RQDX2 & 3 jumpers" (Oct 11, 10:46) References: Message-ID: <9810112006.ZM7084@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 11, 10:46, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Subject: Re: RQDX2 & 3 jumpers > Bruce Lane spoke: > > I've posted jumper and cabling details of the RQDX2 and RQDX3 to my web > Great! This answers some of my questions. Now to show what an ingrate I > am, does anyone have any info on the following jumpers: > > W12..W17 These set the starting "logical unit number" for board, as a binary number (W12=LSB, W17+MSB). If you have multiple RQDXn boards, you'd typcally set the second card to start with LUN 4, the third with LUN 8, etc. Jumper out = 0, jumper in = 1. > W23 -- I think this is for what kind of cabinet that the card is in. No, it controls the HEADSEL 3 and REDUCWRTI signals. W23 has 4 posts numbeerd 1..4. Factory setting is 1-2 jumpered on early firmware, 1-2 and 3-4 for version 2 firmware (ROMs 23-243E5/23-244E5) or later. Alternatively, you can jumper 2-3, which has the effect of connecting HEADSEL 3 to pin 9 of J1, and REDUCWRTI to pin 22. That allows you to use hard drives with more than 8 heads. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Oct 11 15:44:59 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: SCO Unix (Older version) Message-ID: <19981011204500.26922.qmail@hotmail.com> What was the original price of this thing, and to whom was it marketed? > FWIW, I've listed an older version of SCO Unix up on Haggle. The URL is: > > http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201787290 > > Caveat emptor! > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: >http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) >SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own >human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Oct 11 15:56:48 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <19981011205648.7326.qmail@hotmail.com> > >> < So, is Columbus less important because the Vikings reached the Americas >> < before him? Or is it only important that most of the lasting effects >> < descend from Columbus? > >Columbus is a superb analogy for this thread! Not that the results >necessarily match, but that MANY related issues are also present. > >Columbus is the "canonical" discoverer, in spite of the Vikings, or even >the previously existing "colonists" who had been living there for a LONG >time ever since coming over the Bering straits? Well, that 'canonicity' of this is beginning to change. >Likewise, the Intel 4004 is the "canonical" first microprocessor, in >spite of other previous units that might or might not meet various >definitions. Unlike the columbus question, most people neither know nor care who made the first microprocessor or what serial number it was. Just about every m.p. is considered first by _someone_. >> . . . >> Better put, the vikings were here. Columbus told the world two things, >> it's not flat and there are great riches in the east. Somewhere in ther >> is the difference in those explorations goals. > >Since FEW have ever heard anything about this other than TOTAL BS in school, >it bears looking at some of the distortions. What is taught in school is >even less accurate than would be a history of computers by MS, IBM, >Intel, or Apple. In line with the use of it as an analogy, it is useful >to look at how distorted it has become, and realize that the same thing >happens quite quickly in fields such as ours. It happens in all fields. It will always happen. We're doing it now. There is nothing new under the sun. >but quite costly. > >Columbus did NOT tell the world that it wasn't flat. By the time of >Columbus, that was well known and accepted by all educated people. The >only ones who still thought that it was flat are now paying dollars per >minute for telephone psychic readings. Although there were some fears of >dangers, sailing off the edge was NOT taken seriously as a possibility by >anybody with any education. As a matter of fact, the Romans knew that the world was round. The knowledge was lost for about 8 centuries. >it was just too far going that way. Even the diameter and circumference >of the earth had been reasonably accurately computed (showing that the >shortest route to the Indies was still to the east). > >But Columbus had an inaccurate, wrong, crackpot theory that the earth was >about one third the size that had been calculated. Thus, he was convinced >that it WOULD be shorter going west. There are a lot of other issues >involved with his funding, etc. Never knew that. All progress is made by unreasonable men... >He set off, and lo and behold, encountered land somewhere near to where >the Indies would have been if he had been right about his 1/3 size theory. > >BTW, his very first recorded words about the existing inhabitants were: >"a good source for slaves". > >> An aside to this is while Intel is currently the apparent successful >> leader en masse we still don't know how it will play over time yet to >> come. There have been near reversals in the past and it would only take >> the next design leap to change the current course. Also the industry is >> only 30 years old in a century where we are still developing fundemental >> technologies. > >Perhaps I'm cynical, ... >But I maintain that what determines the course of the industry is NOT the >quality of the technology, but the marketing. How else do you explain >the successes of IBM, MS, etc.? Surely not due to their superior >quality?!? Well, IBM really had very little competition. DEC and Data General were quite successful too. But, since IBM was already around making typewriters and card punchers, it was already firmly established in the market. Did NCR ever venture into mainframes and minis, BTW? I have seen a nicely designed AT clone of theirs. > >And progressive improvement in hardware ... Only among people who submit to marketing and not quality. >Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com >XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com >2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 >Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Oct 11 16:05:40 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <19981011210540.17021.qmail@hotmail.com> I think that the amount of marketing necessary is related to the quality and value of the product itself. After all, if a computer is reeealy good, only a simple demonstration is necessary and it will be bought. If the product is nothing new, then $150m will be spent making it successfull. >> >> > Perhaps I'm cynical, ... >> > But I maintain that what determines the course of the industry is NOT the >> > quality of the technology, but the marketing. How else do you explain >> > the successes of IBM, MS, etc.? Surely not due to their superior >> > quality?!? >> >> No, not the "M" word! We just had a "marketing" thread and the term was >> tossed around like it was this magical thing that was responsible for >> everything that couldn't be explained by technical merit. > >It doesn't explain everything, but you'd be a fool to think marketing is >not responsible for at least 50% of a product's success (and that's being >conservative). > >> First of all, IBM can hardly be called successful. *In spite* of all the >> "marketing" they did, Taiwanese with no marketing at all were able to >> completely erode their PC market share. > >Let me get this straight...you're saying IBM can hardly be called >successful? This must be a typo. > I have seen several who think IBM is a failure. Once, I was at a computer store with another person, getting a computer repaired. THe other person asked the tech 'So, do you think Apple will survive?' The answer was quick: 'Sure, IBM survived, didn't it?' I asked her what she meant. She said, 'Well, their entire PS/2 line was killed off'. For one thing, the PS/2 shows that with great marketing and technology, a product can still fail. Secondly, it would appear that in most people's minds, everything before the PC is a haze. >where they did today. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kyrrin at jps.net Sun Oct 11 17:59:33 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: SCO Unix (Older version) In-Reply-To: <19981011204500.26922.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981011155933.00939920@mail.jps.net> At 13:44 11-10-98 PDT, you wrote: >What was the original price of this thing, and to whom was it >marketed? Original price? God only knows. Knowing SCO, I'd be surprised if it was under $1,000 or so. The boxes are marked with transparent stickers bearing the 'Unisys' logo (formerly Sperry). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From CharlesII at nwonline.net Sun Oct 11 17:59:22 1998 From: CharlesII at nwonline.net (CharlesII@nwonline.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: auction grabs Message-ID: <19981011190019.2d76ac31.in@dilbert.nwonline.net> My dad recently came accros some intresting stuff at a county auction. I wasn't there or he would have baught more stuff :-) but however he did find some keyboards that look like they came from a terminal and a computer. Does WYSE ring a bell to anyone? But the biggest enigma is an IBM 4224 printer which from the diagram on the back look like it was made for some sort of LAN, but not ethernet. The plug it would take would be about an inch in diameter. This was previously used by the board of elections and in that case was probably was wired in some sort of esotaric network. The other puzzel is an ethernet card that is deffentatily not 10 years old but just bear with me. The face plate already is a dead give away that it is not made for a PC. The other thing is that the interface to the computer uses a plug that has 3 rows of 32 pins. Could any one tell me wat this interface is, and what I could do to adapt this to be used by a PC's serial poart? Another find was in the tons of IBM formated disks I found an original wang floppy disk but without the orginal format :-( Thats all for now. From jruschme at exit109.com Sun Oct 11 18:00:27 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: from Fred Cisin at "Oct 11, 98 12:55:15 pm" Message-ID: <199810112300.TAA07917@crobin.home.org> > > < So, is Columbus less important because the Vikings reached the Americas > > < before him? Or is it only important that most of the lasting effects > > < descend from Columbus? > > Columbus is a superb analogy for this thread! Not that the results > necessarily match, but that MANY related issues are also present. > > Columbus is the "canonical" discoverer, in spite of the Vikings, or even > the previously existing "colonists" who had been living there for a LONG > time ever since coming over the Bering straits? > Columbus did NOT tell the world that it wasn't flat. By the time of > Columbus, that was well known and accepted by all educated people. The > only ones who still thought that it was flat are now paying dollars per > minute for telephone psychic readings. Although there were some fears of > dangers, sailing off the edge was NOT taken seriously as a possibility by > anybody with any education. Looking at it another way, Columbus really did nothing to disprove the flatness of the Earth. Ultimately, all he did was sail west until he hit a piece of land that was not the easternmost land that he wanted to hit. So, he did not prove the world was round (that would have to wait for Magellan) nor did he fall off the edge. All he really did was find more land to the west of Europe. Definately overrated... :-) <<>> From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Oct 11 18:34:46 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: <199810111823.AA28219@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 11, 98 02:23:52 pm Message-ID: <199810112334.QAA13348@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 779 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981011/836c9936/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Sun Oct 11 18:49:47 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia References: Message-ID: <3621441B.7D3E4DF2@rain.org> Doug Yowza wrote: > First of all, IBM can hardly be called successful. *In spite* of all the > "marketing" they did, Taiwanese with no marketing at all were able to > completely erode their PC market share. If IBM can hardly be called successful, I would love to hear your definition of "successful". "NO MARKETING"???? Not a chance of that being even slightly true. While the marketing was not done by the Taiwanese per se, it was done by every dealer selling their systems ... and very successfully. Hmmm, to give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe we need to hear what your definition of "marketing" is. > Microsoft is certainly successful, but do you honestly believe it's due to > their inane marketing? IBM did "just a little bit" of marketing, and Microsoft was one just one of the beneficiaries. And of course, luck always plays at least some part in all of this. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Sun Oct 11 19:17:56 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Microsci HAVAC Message-ID: This weekend I picked up this wacky little 6502 computer called the Microsci HAVAC. Has anyone else ever seen one of these, or better yet, does anyone have a boot disk for it? The HAVAC has the weirdest floppy drive I've ever seen. It has a center-mounted clamp lever, and the head positioning is done via a spiral-grooved disc! The machine is about 16" deep, 10" wide, 8" tall, with the floppy drive in the center front (there is no door on the drive, just a slot and the funny lever -- no eject mechanism either, just pull the disc out manually). There is a small external keyboard about 10" by 13", no numeric pad, connects via a D-sub connector. On the back of the system unit, there are serial, "printer" (parallel?), 2nd floppy, and RCA video output connectors. I fired it up, and it displayed a HAVAC logo, ROM version 1.3, then the expected "no disk" error. I examined the system board, which is dated 1983, and has a 6502 CPU. There is no info anywhere on the net about this machine, that I can find. Any info appreciated, thanks Kai From handyman at sprintmail.com Sun Oct 11 08:07:04 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Fairchild Channel F References: <199810110702.AAA23603@lists2.u.washington.edu> <36210A81.6AECD38F@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <3620AD77.E1967CB@sprintmail.com> Larry Anderson wrote: > > > I might, however, get out the old Fairchild Channel F video game system > > > tonight and play a few hands of blackjack on an F8. > >> Speaking of which... how common are the Channel Fs? I picked up several > > cartridges for one some time ago, but I've never seen the actual unit. > > I've only seen ads for them in old magazines. > The Atari 2600 beat them out of business though, pitty, the Fairchild had > some of the coolest joysticks (controls were left, right, up, down, twist > left, twist right, fire (and I think push down)) I have 3 of old the Fairchild F8's in my collection.. Purchased the one new in I think 1976, and as I recall the biggest reason for their downfall was the Joysticks themselves, they were very easy to break, they twisted and because you held them by making a fist around the joystick housing and twisted with the other hand they easily snapped apart.. Also the other problem as I recall was they did not have a sound chip, just beeps and crude musical notes. When that Atari 2600 came out it just blew them away with features.. Another really interesting game machine I have is the RCA Studio 2 (Circa 1975).. This was a looser from the start. It had only B/W graphics and sound (Beeps) only from the console, no hand controllers. I have several games for this machine however one is a really quite impressing baseball game, for its time period it was very well done.. But One very cool thing it had was the RCA 1802 processor, in 1977 I sent off for an instruction manual on how build an interface to turn the game machine into an RCA Cosmac computer. I never completed the project because I purchased a Radio Shack Model 1 and was Hooked on it after that. It had a Whopping 4K RAM, and a very crude basic that as I remember supported only 2 String Variables, (Can you say Key bounce) .. Boy did I have fun with that machine. I recently acquired another TRS-80 Model One, to replace my long lost one, and just looking at it made me feel 20 years younger... Gads am I rambling on here or what!!!.. !!! I would be interested in knowing if there were any real computers made using the Fairchild F8 computer chip... or any real applications for it.. Anyone know anything about the F8 ? Phil... From yowza at yowza.com Sun Oct 11 20:33:26 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > It doesn't explain everything, but you'd be a fool to think marketing is > not responsible for at least 50% of a product's success (and that's being > conservative). Then I'm a fool, but you're the one who assigned a quantitative value to marketing. So, please derive that 50% figure for us, specifically for the cases given: IBM and Microsoft. > Let me get this straight...you're saying IBM can hardly be called > successful? This must be a typo. No typo. IBM went from #1 to drop below the top 10 despite heavy marketing, i.e. outspending their competitors on marketing. Is that how this magic marketing works to guarantee success? That must explain why you're running OS/2 on your MCA-based system today. > Sure, take the easy example of Microsoft, which was a fluke. They rode > the coattails of IBM and through sheer luck and determination ended up > where they did today. First, I didn't pick the example of Microsoft. Microsoft and IBM were held up as examples of success through marketing when this thread started, remember? Are you using a Microsoft product? I thought so. Now, think real hard: was Microsoft lucky to get you to use their software? No? Did you use their software because they were determined? No? Did they convince you to use their software by playing "Start me up!" real loud? No? Marketing. Feh! Here, I'll give you marketing experts an easy one: Remember when TI brought out the 99/4 and had huge Bill Cosby marketing blitzes? Was the result: A) TI dominated the market. B) Some company named Commodore, famous for non-Marketing, dominated their market. C) Dunno, I was trying to decide between Coke and Pepsi. -- Doug From roblwill at usaor.net Sun Oct 11 20:30:47 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards Message-ID: <199810120140.VAA05126@gate.usaor.net> > Unless I have my capacitors crossed, some dishwashing agents are > chlorine-based, and H20 <=> OH- + H+; mix a free Cl- ion in and you have > hydrochloric acid. > Well, I think they make it safe enough not to turn to hydrochloric acid (I hope). Considering that people do put plastic dishes in the dishwasher, and most have plastic drains and pumps. If we had dishwashing soap turning to HCl all the time, a lot of people would have a big mess on their hands (and soap companies would probably have a lot of lawsuits). -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 11 20:42:12 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Microsci HAVAC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > This weekend I picked up this wacky little 6502 computer called the Microsci > HAVAC. Has anyone else ever seen one of these, or better yet, does anyone > have a boot disk for it? Sounds neat. Can you supply us with a GIF? > The HAVAC has the weirdest floppy drive I've ever seen. It has a > center-mounted clamp lever, and the head positioning is done via a > spiral-grooved disc! The Apple Disk ][ used the same mechanism. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sun Oct 11 20:28:40 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981011142410.832fa1e4@ricochet.net> At 09:51 PM 10/7/98 -0700, you wrote: >Intel came out the winners; they wanted it the most. But it would have >happened with or without them. You had the 6800, the 6502 and a whole >slew of others. The computers built around those processors were just as >relevant and would have happened anyway. I will admit up front that I don't know everything, and I am not an EE (dropped out of community college) but it seems to me that Intel hadn't won anything until ~81 when IBM came out with their PC. Until then, the Z80 and 6502 were as dominant (if not more so) than the 8080/8085? In fact, I'll go so far as to suggest that perhaps if IBM had gone with, say, the z8000, Intel would not be anywhere near as big as it is? It seems to me that what really got the "cheap computer revolution" going was the Z80 (CP/M, TRS-80, etc.) and the 6502 (Atari, Commodore, Apple II). Because no matter what the tech-heads are doing in their garages, nothing is a revolution until you can buy it at Sears. There is a similar situation with digital recording -- it's been around and available for eons, but mostly was only available to those with lots of $$$ (big studios/record companies) or tech-heads. Now, with the soundblaster/CD-R combo and some software (which, if it isn't available as shareware, I would be extremely surprised!) anyone can cut a full-digital (DDD) CD at home. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sun Oct 11 20:28:42 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Internet Question Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981011153043.832f11f2@ricochet.net> At 06:06 PM 10/9/98 -0800, you wrote: >Does anyone remember the cost of internet access/online time via Compuserve >in the 80s ? I need to give a comparison of today's cost of sending a >graphics file. I seem to remember it as something like $12/hour for 300/1200bps and $24/hour for 2400bps. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 11 20:53:39 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > First, I didn't pick the example of Microsoft. Microsoft and IBM were > held up as examples of success through marketing when this thread started, > remember? Are you using a Microsoft product? I thought so. Now, think > real hard: was Microsoft lucky to get you to use their software? No? Did > you use their software because they were determined? No? Did they > convince you to use their software by playing "Start me up!" real loud? > No? Your problem is that you're equating "marketing" to "advertising". Advertising is one aspect of marketing. There's more to marketing then getting ads on TV and in magazines. It includes getting your products out there, putting them into the hands of potentional customers, creating incentives to purchase, creating purchasing plans, selling support and warranties.... Basically everything it takes from enticing a customer towards your product to keeping that customer on board with you. You can let the consumers know that you're selling widgets, and people may buy a widget from you, but if that's as far as your marketing campaign goes then you will be doomed to failure. To call IBM a failure is silly posturing, and should be left at that. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 11 17:20:29 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: What was the first Unix micro? In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Oct 11, 98 12:55:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 935 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981011/40722d70/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 11 21:14:10 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: What was the first Unix micro? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > The plugged-in CPU card was a bit odd. It was 1986/1987 vintage and > > appeared to have Z80000-series chips (yes, that has the right number of > > zeros). I remember Zilog making a Z80000, but I don't know any details. Well, I'm now the proud new owner of this forsaken beast, and having taken a close look at the CPU card I see no Z80000 chip. Just a Z8001 and a Z8010 and a bunch of other Z8xxx support chips. However, it is tagged with a Zilog asset sticker and it will be interesting to find out what's on the three tapes I got with it besides the Zeus operating system. > > Was it Z8000-compatible? This particular machine is labeled as a Zilog > > asset, so there's a chance it includes goodies that didn't make it into > > the real world. > > I'd heard that the Z80,000 (Zilog always put the comma in) was either > never sold or only sold in prototype quantities. Sounds like you have > quite a find there... Unfortunately not, but it was still worth the $100 I paid for it as its in great shape and was complete. It has two SMD drives and a tape drive, plus spare boards. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 11 21:14:13 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Microsci HAVAC Message-ID: <981011221413.2020017a@trailing-edge.com> >> The HAVAC has the weirdest floppy drive I've ever seen. It has a >> center-mounted clamp lever, and the head positioning is done via a >> spiral-grooved disc! >The Apple Disk ][ used the same mechanism. And they're both derivatives of the Shugart SA390. Tim. From yowza at yowza.com Sun Oct 11 21:28:24 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Your problem is that you're equating "marketing" to "advertising". I have many problems, but that's not one of them. The kind of marketing you're talking about matters a whole lot in certain markets, such as commodities. Marketing is what makes you buy one brand of fruit rather than another (the whole idea of branding a fruit is pure marketing). Microsoft spends a lot of money on marketing, but that's not why you buy their products. You buy their OS because all of the applications you want run on their OS. They did very little in terms of marketing to make that happen (they have co-op marketing plans for ISV's, but they're mostly symbolic). In fact, I'd bet that you actually find the idea of buying Microsoft produts rather distasteful, but that you do it anyways. The fact that you have a bad impression of them shows just how bad their marketing is. As far as minor things like product placement, etc., Microsoft goes through the same dull distribution channels as everybody else and does the same inane promotions as everbody else, but they still have a huge advantage. Marketing is not a science, and it helps when all else is equal, but it certainly isn't the magic medicine you seem to think it is that can erase the effects of second-rate technology, absurd pricing, or illconceived products! -- Doug From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Sun Oct 11 21:34:09 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) Message-ID: OK, I snapped a quick shot of the HAVAC, it's not the greatest picture but it'll do :) http://www.geocities.com/~compcloset/MicrosciHavac.htm Kai -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail [mailto:dastar@ncal.verio.com] Sent: Sunday, October 11, 1998 6:42 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Microsci HAVAC On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > This weekend I picked up this wacky little 6502 computer called the Microsci > HAVAC. Has anyone else ever seen one of these, or better yet, does anyone > have a boot disk for it? Sounds neat. Can you supply us with a GIF? > The HAVAC has the weirdest floppy drive I've ever seen. It has a > center-mounted clamp lever, and the head positioning is done via a > spiral-grooved disc! The Apple Disk ][ used the same mechanism. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From rax at warbaby.com Sun Oct 11 22:57:31 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Wierdness Message-ID: Have y'all heard American Computer Company? They claim to have alien technology that's going to enable them to come out with a chip that holds 90 gigs. Uh-huh.... http://accpc.com/tcapdisplay.htm 90 GB of Solid State Storage on a Single Wafer! An original Semiconductor Device based upon J-S Dielectric-Junction Electron-Bond-Species Manipulation Semiconductors arranged in a High Density Ultra High Speed Integrated Quantum Junction Array I particularly like the Electron Bond Species Manipulation bit. R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. From mbg at world.std.com Sun Oct 11 21:36:47 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810120236.AA21653@world.std.com> >First, I didn't pick the example of Microsoft. Microsoft and IBM were >held up as examples of success through marketing when this thread >started, remember? Are you using a Microsoft product? I thought so. >Now, think real hard: was Microsoft lucky to get you to use their >software? No? Did you use their software because they were determined? >No? Did they convince you to use their software by playing "Start me >up!" real loud? No? No, those running MS software are doing so mostly because MS was the only game in town way back when... not hard to be 'best' when you're the only one... also not hard to be 'worst'... Personally, I avoid MS-anything like the plague... I have a linux system which has been up for more than a week straight... running W95, I'm lucking if I *don't* have to reboot several times a day either because the system has simply crashed, or wedged itself... Megan From yowza at yowza.com Sun Oct 11 22:10:57 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Wierdness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Rax wrote: > An original Semiconductor Device based upon J-S Dielectric-Junction > Electron-Bond-Species Manipulation Semiconductors arranged > in a High Density Ultra High Speed Integrated Quantum Junction Array I've always wanted one of these to speed up the in-circuit mutilator I got at last week's swapmeet. (Oh, how I yearn for the days before the net began to mirror real life.) -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 11 22:12:05 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > I have many problems, but that's not one of them. The kind of marketing > you're talking about matters a whole lot in certain markets, such as > commodities. Marketing is what makes you buy one brand of fruit rather > than another (the whole idea of branding a fruit is pure marketing). Please explain to me how IBM could have become such a power as they were if they hadn't marketed their products in the sense that I've described? They would have been just another also ran. The reason people waited for the IBM PC to buy their first computer was because they knew IBM would throw their support operation behind the product. IBM had achieved this level of credibility through their marketing from the 50s, 60s and 70s. In fact, the kind of marketing I'm talking about matters MOST in the computer industry. Because if you can't or won't put an infrastructure of sales support behind your products, and nobody else does either, then you're doomed to fail. To survive, you have to promote your products to other companies by pressing your standards; to users by holding seminars; to the public by getting your name in circulation. You have to create campaigns to get people to buy your product by offering discounts, or evangelizing the benefits of using your products over competitors. Good products rarely just sell themselves. I can build the greatest widget in the world but if I don't start telling people about it then it'll sit in my warehouse collecting dust while I go bankrupt. Obviously you have to go out and market it for anyone to buy it. > Microsoft spends a lot of money on marketing, but that's not why you buy > their products. You buy their OS because all of the applications you want > run on their OS. They did very little in terms of marketing to make that > happen (they have co-op marketing plans for ISV's, but they're mostly > symbolic). > > In fact, I'd bet that you actually find the idea of buying Microsoft > produts rather distasteful, but that you do it anyways. The fact that you > have a bad impression of them shows just how bad their marketing is. As No, I have a bad impression of Microsoft because invariably their products cause me an immense amount of hassle rather than allowing me to be productive. > far as minor things like product placement, etc., Microsoft goes through > the same dull distribution channels as everybody else and does the same > inane promotions as everbody else, but they still have a huge advantage. Hardly. In the magazines I read (including Inc., Success, Newsweek, Computer Telephony) Microsoft has all sorts of ads, in numerous places, promoting their products in the spirit of the content of the magazine (ie. home office productivity in Success, TAPI in Computer Telephony). I don't see ANY ads from any of MS' competitors! Microsoft continually gets their name out their and in your face. They continually remind you that they are the dominant force and that you should buy their products. Its quite simple. Name recognition counts for a lot. If you, the uninformed consumer (which accounts for most of the population) walk into a store and see on the rack Microsoft Word and Fooblitzky WordPro+, which one are you going to choose? Naturally the one you've heard of before. Even if you don't know much about either, you'll choose the one that you've at least heard mention of before. If you read the print on the package, you might be convinced to by Fooblitzky's software, but marketing also extends to what's printed on the box, and you're damn straight MS continues their marketing campaign onto the print on the box and will have on the box what it takes to make you buy Word. Its the same tactic politicians running for office use. Who takes the time to research the candidates? Not many people. Yet they are hoping that if they get their named played enough times, they are the one you will choose when you go to the ballot box to fill in whatever circles are presented to you. Here's a good example of marketing. BASF has a commercial running that says "You don't buy any products that BASF makes, but you do buy products from companies that use BASF products". What the hell good is running a commercial like that? Its to promote their name. Search engines...which one is the best? Who cares. Everyone uses Yahoo! because they advertise on every medium in existence: TV, radio and print (for the record, I prefer AltaVista). > Marketing is not a science, and it helps when all else is equal, but it > certainly isn't the magic medicine you seem to think it is that can erase > the effects of second-rate technology, absurd pricing, or illconceived > products! If you exaggerate it to the extremes as you have done, no, of course not! But I think you're still underestimating the value of marketing. I'll leave it at that. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 11 22:11:20 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards Message-ID: <199810120311.AA18861@world.std.com> < Unless I have my capacitors crossed, some dishwashing agents are < chlorine-based, and H20 <=> OH- + H+; mix a free Cl- ion in and you hav < hydrochloric acid. Which is why most are not CL- based. I thin their majik is a sodium ion. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 11 22:11:27 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Microsci HAVAC Message-ID: <199810120311.AA18948@world.std.com> < The HAVAC has the weirdest floppy drive I've ever seen. It has a < center-mounted clamp lever, and the head positioning is done via a < spiral-grooved disc! Sounds like the shugart sa400 series. Allison From yowza at yowza.com Sun Oct 11 22:27:01 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Please explain to me how IBM could have become such a power as they were > if they hadn't marketed their products in the sense that I've described? > They would have been just another also ran. The reason people waited for > the IBM PC to buy their first computer was because they knew IBM would > throw their support operation behind the product. IBM had achieved this > level of credibility through their marketing from the 50s, 60s and 70s. I'm glad that this brings the thread slightly on-topic, but I'm amazed at how much you attribute to marketing. If I were a simple marketing droid, I would be very flattered that you attribute: * 40 years of corporate stability to marketing * extensive manufacturing capability to marketing * cash reserves to sustain development to marketing * vast R+D resources to marketing * world-class documentation to marketing * world-wide customer support to marketing * a simply immense infrastructure ... to marketing! Marketing: feh! -- Doug From william at ans.net Sun Oct 11 22:36:36 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <3621441B.7D3E4DF2@rain.org> Message-ID: OK, back to the front I go, to defend Big Blue... > If IBM can hardly be called successful, I would love to hear your definition > of "successful". Most people, including the folks at IBM, equate success of a product to the bottom line. If the product makes money, it is a success. Almost everything IBM has done with the PC line has made them money. Lots of it. Sure they have had duds - PC jr., PS/1, OS/2 (kind of) - but every company has had their share. In fact, if you can name an established computer company that has not had a dud, I will send you a prize. Look at he machines that have not been duds for IBM - specifically the PS/2 line. IBM made a lot of them (I would like to know how many), and sold them to businesses by the truckloads. With tradional IBM pricing involved, of course they made money! And all of those machines had to come with MCA cards (another thing I wish people would stop bashing)... Do not confuse market share and product success. Just because any company is not #1, does not mean they ought to close up shop. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Oct 11 23:10:03 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: Microsci HAVAC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > This weekend I picked up this wacky little 6502 computer called the Microsci > HAVAC. Has anyone else ever seen one of these, or better yet, does anyone > have a boot disk for it? > > The HAVAC has the weirdest floppy drive I've ever seen. It has a > center-mounted clamp lever, and the head positioning is done via a > spiral-grooved disc! Well... while I am not familiar with the 'HAVAC', to find a more common use of the "spiral grooved disc" for head positioning, just look in any Apple II disk drive! (the early ones, not the 'DuoDiscs') That was the standard early Shugart 5.25 inch disk positioner mechanism. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From mbg at world.std.com Sun Oct 11 21:41:44 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:18 2005 Subject: No place to contact... yet... but be ready Message-ID: <199810120241.AA27281@world.std.com> >Xref: world alt.sys.pdp8:4263 >Path: world!blanket.mitre.org!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!206.191.82.231!rockie.attcanada.net!attcanada!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.225!attworldnet!newsadm >From: david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) >Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 >Subject: DEC Rainbows going up for sale >Date: 11 Oct 1998 16:10:15 GMT >Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services >Lines: 20 >Message-ID: <3621d6f7.30336552@netnews.worldnet.att.net> >Reply-To: david.razler@worldnet.att.net >NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.68.22.131 >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 If all goes well, my employer, The Press of Atlantic City, will be selling off an almost unlimited stock of working DEC Rainbows in 1st Q '99 (and, boy will I be glad to get something "modern" like a 486 on my desk.) Anyway, in addition to being collectors items in their own right, they have the same basic mechanical and electrical components as the DECMates. Word I'm getting is they'll go for cheap to anyone looking to keep them alive or in need of parts, at or just over scrap value. Also up for grabs will be at least one major PDP-11 system. I'll keep the list posted with the latest news including when and how to order your own PC-Clone and DECMate repair kit. dmr David M. Razler david.razler@worldnet.att.net From aaron at wfi-inc.com Sun Oct 11 23:59:21 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Microsci HAVAC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Kai, Nifty piece! One idea: does it appear that it may be some sort of "adaptive" computer, i.e. for people with disabilities? The only thought I had was a company called the "MICROCOMPUTER Science Centre" in Ontario. The url is http://home.ican.net/~microsci/ I used one of their products helping out a disabled English professor a couple of years back... Aaron From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 12 00:01:02 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > I'm glad that this brings the thread slightly on-topic, but I'm amazed at > how much you attribute to marketing. If I were a simple marketing droid, > I would be very flattered that you attribute: > * 40 years of corporate stability to marketing > * extensive manufacturing capability to marketing > * cash reserves to sustain development to marketing > * vast R+D resources to marketing > * world-class documentation to marketing > * world-wide customer support to marketing > * a simply immense infrastructure ... to marketing! Do you think they would have any of the above if nobody ever bought any of their products? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From yowza at yowza.com Mon Oct 12 00:08:15 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Do you think they would have any of the above if nobody ever bought any of > their products? Do you think you could come up with a more circular argument? :-) -- Doug From red at bears.org Mon Oct 12 00:11:39 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: SCO Unix (Older version) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981011155933.00939920@mail.jps.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Bruce Lane wrote: > >What was the original price of this thing, and to whom was it > >marketed? > > Original price? God only knows. Knowing SCO, I'd be surprised if it was > under $1,000 or so. According to the June 15 1993 PC Magazine (the NEW PCs), $1295 would get you the basic SCO Open Desktop 2.0 for two users, and $4290 would get you the complete package, licensed for unlimited users. The pricing was similar for Open Desktop 3.0 if I remember correctly from my own travails in SCO-land. ok r. From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Oct 12 00:18:10 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: auction grabs Message-ID: <98dde792.36219112@aol.com> The IBM 4224 is a 200 to 400 CPS dot matrix printer (usually 18 pin) for use on IBM networks. It sounds like you have the Twinax interface, about 1" in diameter, screw connector, with two pin holes. It is not usable on anything but a twinax network. I bellieve that IBM made 3 versions of varieing speeds in two interfaces. The second interface is a BNC Coax for the 3270 systems. While the networks are over 10 yrs old I doubt the printer is. Paxton From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Oct 12 00:23:25 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Microsci HAVAC Message-ID: Damn, you're right, that was the same as the early SA400's. This one isn't built nearly as solid, though, and the clamp mechanism is driven by strings(!) that run over pulleys just like an old radio tuner mechanism. Kai -----Original Message----- From: James Willing [mailto:jimw@agora.rdrop.com] Sent: Sunday, October 11, 1998 9:10 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Microsci HAVAC On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > This weekend I picked up this wacky little 6502 computer called the Microsci > HAVAC. Has anyone else ever seen one of these, or better yet, does anyone > have a boot disk for it? > > The HAVAC has the weirdest floppy drive I've ever seen. It has a > center-mounted clamp lever, and the head positioning is done via a > spiral-grooved disc! Well... while I am not familiar with the 'HAVAC', to find a more common use of the "spiral grooved disc" for head positioning, just look in any Apple II disk drive! (the early ones, not the 'DuoDiscs') That was the standard early Shugart 5.25 inch disk positioner mechanism. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 12 00:32:30 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Do you think they would have any of the above if nobody ever bought any of > > their products? > > Do you think you could come up with a more circular argument? :-) Sure, call it a "circular argument" because you've backed yourself into a corner. ;)~ Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From yowza at yowza.com Mon Oct 12 00:43:12 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > > On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > > Do you think they would have any of the above if nobody ever bought any of > > > their products? > > > > Do you think you could come up with a more circular argument? :-) > > Sure, call it a "circular argument" because you've backed yourself into a > corner. ;)~ [Can't let him get the last word....] OK, you're right. I concede your point. IBM was built into a multi-billion dollar international company because of their bookkeepers, without whom none of the checks would have been deposited into the bank, none of the employees would have been paid, none of the materials would have been acquired ... in short, bookkeepers are responsible for 50% (conservative estimate) of any successful business. -- Doug From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 12 00:40:06 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Sun, 11 Oct 1998 22:32:30 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981012054006.16318.qmail@brouhaha.com> It seems to me that most of the disagreements here about marketing can't be settled until we agree as to what constitutes marketing. Sam's position seems to be that marketing is defined as anything that induces customers to buy products. By this definition, products that are well-marketed are successful, and products that are poorly marketed fail. As a corollary, products that are successful were well-marketed, and products that fail were poorly marketed. This is not a particularly useful definition. From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Oct 12 01:12:00 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Sams Computerfacts Message-ID: <8d3c9df8.36219db0@aol.com> Hi; I have just listed on ebay a group of Sams Computerfacts that I have had some interest in from people on the classic computer list. They are for: Computers - Osborne OCC1 & OCC1A, TRS-80 Models 3 and 4, Epson QX-10, Franklin Ace 1000, Atari 800XL, IBM PC & AT, AT&T 6300, Leading Edge D Monitors - IBM 5151 and 5153, Amdek Color-I and the Video-300 Printers - Okidata Microlines 82A and 92, Apple A90303, NEC PC-8023A-N, NEC PC-8025A, IBM 5152-002, Epsons MX-80 IIIF/T, FX-80, FX-100, MX-100, RX-80, FX-286e, Star Geminis 10X and 15X These can be searched for by the keyword "Computerfact" (Singular context please). I also listed a factory Toshiba T 1100 plus laptop maintenance Manual. All of these are under Computer/hardware/books. Paxton p.S. Please direct questions toi Whoagiii@aol.com. From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Oct 12 01:11:53 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Microsci HAVAC Message-ID: Micro-SCI made a line of Apple II and III compatable disk drives in the early 80s. I bet they made an Apple clone wannabee. Try apple dos 3.2 or 3.2. You could have gotten a copy of that too in my whse this weekend. Micro-SCI was a division of Standum Controlls, Inc. in Santa Anna, CA. This came out of their ad in a March, 1983 Byte. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 12 01:36:02 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <19981012054006.16318.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 12 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > It seems to me that most of the disagreements here about marketing can't > be settled until we agree as to what constitutes marketing. You're wrong. We won't be able to agree on anything until we agree upon what a "microprocessor" is. In fact, the Arabs and the Israelis will never have peace until the definition of a microprocessor is agreed upon once and for all (oh yeah, and what "the first" means too). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 12 01:38:50 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Microsci HAVAC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > Micro-SCI made a line of Apple II and III compatable disk drives in the early > 80s. I bet they made an Apple clone wannabee. Try apple dos 3.2 or 3.2. You > could have gotten a copy of that too in my whse this weekend. If it was 1983 then definitely try DOS 3.3. It would be REALLY COOL if that thing turned out to be an Apple //e clone. I can't imagine what else would be using a 6502 at around that time (besides already established designs...most new designs were coming out with 8088's by that time and the 6502 was thought to be an oddity of the past). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Oct 11 22:54:37 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: What was the first Unix micro? In-Reply-To: References: from "Doug Yowza" at Oct 11, 98 12:55:57 pm Message-ID: <199810120758.DAA05014@smtp.interlog.com> On 11 Oct 98 at 23:20, Tony Duell wrote: > > The plugged-in CPU card was a bit odd. It was 1986/1987 vintage and > > appeared to have Z80000-series chips (yes, that has the right number of > > zeros). I remember Zilog making a Z80000, but I don't know any details. > > I think I have the Z80000 data sheets somewhere... > > Ah yes, here we are, at least a Preliminary Product Specification > A ha ha ha ha ha ha . Of course ! As they say in France,Tony you are truly "incroyable" (incredible) I am never failed to be blown away by 3 people on this M-L. Tony, Allison, and Jason Pero. We are indeed fortunate. Not to downplay the immense knowledge of all things TRS 80 and master of the politically incorrect cryptic comment Ward Griffiths. Or the immense knowledge of mini's of Tim Shippa As well as the general guruhood of a goodly number of the members. The archives of this newsgroup could be the base of a Masters course on computers. Thank you all. ciao larry > It appears to be a 32 bit CPU wit linear or segmented addressing and > on-chip cache. One other thing is that the instruction set is an > binary-compatibile extension of the Z8000 instruction set. So probably > Zeus would run on it with few if any changes. > > > Was it Z8000-compatible? This particular machine is labeled as a Zilog > > asset, so there's a chance it includes goodies that didn't make it into > > the real world. > > I'd heard that the Z80,000 (Zilog always put the comma in) was either > never sold or only sold in prototype quantities. Sounds like you have > quite a find there... > > -tony > > > lwalker@interlog.com From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 12 05:35:38 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: 6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...) Message-ID: <199810120916.LAA06137@marina.fth.sbs.de> > "Hans Franke" wrote: >> Yes, but as a rule, mainframes and most minis catch undefined >> opcodes in a special exeption. > That's only a 'rule' for recent machines. Most of the early ones didn't. > When IBM was developing the 1401 emulation for the 360/30, they discovered > that many customers were in fact using and dependent on undefined behaviors > of the 1401. They had to emulate a lot of things that were never documented. Now, thats what I call early. Of course you are right. I did only think back to the 60's technologie (/360 is the earlyest Mainframe system I ever programmed). > References: > _The Mythical Man Month_ by Brooks, > _Computer Architecture: Concepts and Evolution_ by Brooks and Blaauw, > _IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems_ by Pugh, Johnson, and Palmer Thank you Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 12 07:05:03 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 (was Re: Convergent Technologies work Message-ID: <199810121046.MAA03799@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>The mention in this thread of a Kyocera-labeled product intrigues me, >>as I'd never heard of such at the edge of the Pacific I was on then. > The Kyocera KC-85 is well known, although not too common. The case is > shaped more like the NEC, but it has the keyboard of the m100. > P.S., come to VCF 3.0 and see all the variations (hopefully!) and check out > the talk I'm going to do (hopefully!) on the history of all these machines. > (If anyone has any info, history, or anecdotes, please get in touch!) I have the technical Reference, DOS manual and BASIC I/O Manuals for the NEC 8201A - interested ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 12 07:05:03 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Hayes Message-ID: <199810121046.MAA04203@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> Just so everyone knows, Hayes has filed for Bankruptcy.. >>Again? > When was the last time? I think 3 or 4 years ago. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 12 07:05:03 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards Message-ID: <199810121046.MAA04468@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Okay, I just ran the mainboard to my 64 through the dishwasher. Does anyone > know what the material between the metal noise shield and the board is, Paper > and why it expanded during dishwashing? soaking wet ? > And if it will shrink again as it > cools and dries? I didn't run the thing through the dry cycle either. Use strong, cool air to blow the water away. I always use compressed air from a supply for pneumatic tools. Blowing the water away instead of drying avoids stains from calcium and other dispensed materials (Well, Munich water is _very_ 'strong' :). > It is VERY clean... :) :)) > If it works after this I'll probably have to track down a replacement > keyboard. THEN throw the whole thing in a ziplock bag and keep it until I > figure out what to do with it. :) Wooah - a Ziplock Bag ? Together with the energy cost for your dishwasher this tripples the value of the C64 board :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 12 06:46:11 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Microsci HAVAC Message-ID: <199810121146.AA23248@world.std.com> < If it was 1983 then definitely try DOS 3.3. It would be REALLY COOL if < that thing turned out to be an Apple //e clone. I can't imagine what el < would be using a 6502 at around that time (besides already established < designs...most new designs were coming out with 8088's by that time and < the 6502 was thought to be an oddity of the past). This is bogus. 1983 was not the end of the line for 8bitters yet. The 8088 was still gathering steam but far from a full head. the 8bit world would have another two years or so to peak. The Franklin ACE1200 in the may'83 Microsystems is only one example. The PC may have launched in 81... but it wasn't the defacto force quite yet in 1983.. or 86. If anything I'd call that the processor wars eara with 80186, 80286, 64180, 65816, 16032, 68000 to name a few all jockying for the next better runner. While that was going on new z80 and 6502 systems were emerging that were smaller, cheaper, faster to capitalize on the existing and still growing software base. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 12 06:46:19 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Marketing /formerly ... Message-ID: <199810121146.AA23274@world.std.com> < No, those running MS software are doing so mostly because MS was < the only game in town way back when... not hard to be 'best' when < you're the only one... also not hard to be 'worst'... Back to the original topic some. History. MS was not the only game in town. DRI, later Novell, now Caldara offered CPM86 and it decendants such as CCPM and DRDOS until MS crushed them. Caldara is still at it with Opendos (DRdos decendant). < Personally, I avoid MS-anything like the plague... I have a linux < system which has been up for more than a week straight... running < W95, I'm lucking if I *don't* have to reboot several times a day < either because the system has simply crashed, or wedged itself... I'm no fan of MS but I run a ton of CADD, FPGA and cross assemblers unavailable for Linux or freeBSD. The system that I must run it on is MSdos6.22/WIN3.1 that generally has an up time of months between reboots. The last down time was for a fan replacement. I've never run w95, but I've seen systems that can achieve that as well. My other half has a laptop for work that seems to be solid enough. None of the MS OSs are great products, they work ok though and when the system is configured with stable hardware and software. I've also found that linix or freeBSD tends to beat the daylights out of hardware and find even minor problems that seem to get by under MSdos/win but cause it to crash intermittently. Most of the complaints I've heard of MS dos/winders can be leveled at Linux or other unice as well. My pet peave is that most of the PC unice are limited about what hardware they run on and like win95 also will not be happy with a minimal 8meg of ram. Now what has this to do with old hardware. Unix has been around for some time, some 25-30 years. It's still not the generalized platform for applications software. I find that good low cost CADD tools are non-existant and most require Xwinders which is a memory hog and yet another potentially cranky item. So until I can find a good CADD, schematic capture, PCB routing, XAble and Xilinx FPGA package for PC unice for under a few hundred $$$ MS wins. That defined the market. Allison From bede0005 at tc.umn.edu Mon Oct 12 08:29:14 1998 From: bede0005 at tc.umn.edu (Rob Bedeaux) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Seeking: Lisa/Mac XL 'Do it yourself guide' In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981011105954.032f49ac@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: > > Having (finally) added a LISA to the collection, I'm looking for a copy of > the Sun Remarketing book on the LISA/Mac XL. > > Anyone out there have one that they could be parted from, or induced to > feed thru a copier/scanner? there are several places which these are online. I have a copy avaible in PDF format on my site at http://toybox.asap.net/~rbedeaux/lisa rob From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Oct 12 08:57:52 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: <199810120140.VAA05126@gate.usaor.net> from "Jason Willgruber" at Oct 11, 98 09:30:47 pm Message-ID: <199810121357.GAA12228@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1047 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981012/4c94596b/attachment.ksh From workapulo at my-dejanews.com Mon Oct 12 09:54:36 1998 From: workapulo at my-dejanews.com (Tony Dellett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Sams Computerfacts Message-ID: You can also get photocopies of most of the Sam's Computerfacts by calling them and asking for one. If they have an old copy in stock, they'll copy it and send it to you for $20. I got Computerfacts for the C64 and C128 this way. Tony -- On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 02:12:00 Innfogra wrote: >Hi; >I have just listed on ebay a group of Sams Computerfacts that I have had some >interest in from people on the classic computer list. > >They are for: > >Computers - Osborne OCC1 & OCC1A, TRS-80 Models 3 and 4, Epson QX-10, Franklin >Ace 1000, Atari 800XL, IBM PC & AT, AT&T 6300, Leading Edge D > >Monitors - IBM 5151 and 5153, Amdek Color-I and the Video-300 > >Printers - Okidata Microlines 82A and 92, Apple A90303, NEC PC-8023A-N, NEC >PC-8025A, IBM 5152-002, Epsons MX-80 IIIF/T, FX-80, FX-100, MX-100, RX-80, >FX-286e, Star Geminis 10X and 15X > >These can be searched for by the keyword "Computerfact" (Singular context >please). > >I also listed a factory Toshiba T 1100 plus laptop maintenance Manual. >All of these are under Computer/hardware/books. >Paxton > >p.S. Please direct questions toi Whoagiii@aol.com. > -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 12 10:46:26 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <19981012154630.18588.qmail@hotmail.com> The thing is, people bought their earlier products when IBM won in its battle with NCR. When IBM began to make computers, it was already well estblished in the business world. Do people mean a product with good ergonomics or with easy repairs in mind as marketing? That plays a role, though it has nothing to do with the quality of the product or its innovativeness. >> I would be very flattered that you attribute: >> * 40 years of corporate stability to marketing >> * extensive manufacturing capability to marketing >> * cash reserves to sustain development to marketing >> * vast R+D resources to marketing >> * world-class documentation to marketing >> * world-wide customer support to marketing >> * a simply immense infrastructure ... to marketing! > >Do you think they would have any of the above if nobody ever bought any of >their products? > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 12 10:56:18 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <19981012155619.23461.qmail@hotmail.com> I maintain my stance that 'microprocessor' is a term used by the public and media to refer to a series of technical developments, that are not well considered before calling them microprocessors. In short, there is no way to define a microprocessor in the technical sense. TI's 1979 book Understanding Microprocessors defines it as: A digital integrated unit (or a set of IC's) that contains the digital functions necessary to be a CPU. It "processes" information and controls and keeps the system working in harmony as it responds to the step by step program that the CPU follows. Nice and circular :) >what a "microprocessor" is. In fact, the Arabs and the Israelis will >never have peace until the definition of a microprocessor is agreed upon >once and for all (oh yeah, and what "the first" means too). > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From roblwill at usaor.net Sun Oct 11 21:34:15 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) Message-ID: <199810121925.PAA24529@gate.usaor.net> Um, I don't care what anybody says, but that disk drive does NOT look like anything similar to an Apple Disk II. BTW: I used to have a Disk II, and the heads were positioned by a stepper motor, and didn't have any "spiral-grooved disc" anywhere in the entire unit. -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Kai Kaltenbach > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) > Date: Sunday, October 11, 1998 10:34 PM > > OK, I snapped a quick shot of the HAVAC, it's not the greatest picture but > it'll do :) > > http://www.geocities.com/~compcloset/MicrosciHavac.htm > > Kai > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Ismail [mailto:dastar@ncal.verio.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 11, 1998 6:42 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Microsci HAVAC > > > On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > This weekend I picked up this wacky little 6502 computer called the > Microsci > > HAVAC. Has anyone else ever seen one of these, or better yet, does anyone > > have a boot disk for it? > > Sounds neat. Can you supply us with a GIF? > > > The HAVAC has the weirdest floppy drive I've ever seen. It has a > > center-mounted clamp lever, and the head positioning is done via a > > spiral-grooved disc! > > The Apple Disk ][ used the same mechanism. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: > dastar@siconic.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 12 14:23:49 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:36:02 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981012192349.19324.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sam wrote: > You're wrong. We won't be able to agree on anything until we agree upon > what a "microprocessor" is. In fact, the Arabs and the Israelis will > never have peace until the definition of a microprocessor is agreed upon > once and for all (oh yeah, and what "the first" means too). And Clinton won't be satisfied until we've defined exactly what "is" is. But I don't think we need a precise definition of "marketing" for the discussion of "microprocessors", or vice versa. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Oct 12 14:35:43 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Items FS or trade Message-ID: <36225A0E.87BD4477@bigfoot.com> Since I shut down the at home/on site business here and went to work as an ISS/CSS at a local corporation I need to do some cleaning out of excess here. I have many, many machines from 8088 through 80386DX that I can make a reasonable deal with someone on (not as cheap as an unknown condition thrift shop sale though) for mostly main units (you add the KB and monitor in may cases) but I have a few setups that are complete such as a 5150 PC that does have a 5151 monitor and original keyboard. PS/2's out the bung hole, Dells and AT&T's, etc. Many will have to be dug through when someone inquires about the condition and what it includes but 99% are in great condition other than minor wear and tear. I'm always looking for odds and ends for my machines here such as drives, cards, modems, etc as well as electronics test equipment for my bench. If you have something to trade rather than cash (which is my favorite, as is many other's) then let me know and we can go from there. Please email me direct so this isn't a problem with the list. I hate putting this on here but the people on this list seem to appreciate good sturdy hardware and see the actual value and use for it rather than seeing a pile of scrap with gold retrieval possibilities. Russ Blakeman Harned, KY 40144 From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 12 14:29:33 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <19981012155619.23461.qmail@hotmail.com> (maxeskin@hotmail.com) References: <19981012155619.23461.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <19981012192933.19371.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Max Eskin" wrote: > TI's 1979 book Understanding Microprocessors defines it as: > A digital integrated unit (or a set of IC's) that contains the > digital functions necessary to be a CPU. Naturally TI is going to downplay the "single-chip" requirement, since they failed to produce a working single-chip CPU before Intel. TI had a design, but it didn't prove to be manufacturable. Even if not everyone here agrees that being on a single chip is a necessary condition for something to be called a microprocessor, to the best of my knowledge no one disagrees with the claim that Intel as the first to make a single-chip CPU. Eric From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Oct 12 14:20:45 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards Message-ID: <199810121938.PAA27513@gate.usaor.net> > It doesn't have to be a strong solution; even a weak solution of HCl is > fine for human skin but will corrode metal. > > Still, only some do. Probably most are ionic detergents (sodium dodecyl > sulfate, sodium lauryl sulfate) but you never know, especially with rinse > agents. Just gotta be sure you pull the board before the rinse cycle :-). Then it's usually best to rinse it with distilled water. -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 12 14:41:12 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) Message-ID: <981012154112.20a000ba@trailing-edge.com> > http://www.geocities.com/~compcloset/MicrosciHavac.htm >Um, I don't care what anybody says, but that disk drive does NOT look like >anything similar to an Apple Disk II. I agree - the door doesn't look anything at all like a Disk II. >BTW: I used to have a Disk II, and the heads were positioned by a stepper >motor, and didn't have any "spiral-grooved disc" anywhere in the entire >unit. I've had several dozen Disk II's, and they all had stepper motors with spiral grooved disks. Many, many drives were based around the SA390 and 400 mechanics, and some of them look quite dissimilar from the outside despite the fact that their internal mechanics are very similar. Kai - you mention on your web page that when you turn the machine on you go into a boot ROM monitor. What are the prompts like? Any copyright notices? Menus? Any "obvious" commands? Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 12 12:35:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: auction grabs In-Reply-To: <19981011190019.2d76ac31.in@dilbert.nwonline.net> from "CharlesII@nwonline.net" at Oct 11, 98 06:59:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1715 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981012/f98b41c8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 12 12:37:54 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: <199810112334.QAA13348@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Oct 11, 98 04:34:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 613 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981012/2daafc51/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 12 12:44:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: What was the first Unix micro? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 11, 98 07:14:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 632 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981012/db83c08d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 12 12:42:01 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: <199810120140.VAA05126@gate.usaor.net> from "Jason Willgruber" at Oct 11, 98 09:30:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 744 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981012/198c9265/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Oct 12 15:03:59 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) In-Reply-To: <199810121925.PAA24529@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > Um, I don't care what anybody says, but that disk drive does NOT look like > anything similar to an Apple Disk II. You might want to go back and reread the earlier parts of the thread. I don't recall anyone saying that the HAVAC drive "looked like" the Apple drives, only that the 'spiral grooved disc' was common to early shugart drive mechanisms such as were used in the Apple Disk II drives. > BTW: I used to have a Disk II, and the heads were positioned by a stepper > motor, and didn't have any "spiral-grooved disc" anywhere in the entire > unit. Better look again. The motor used for the head actuator was indeed a stepper motor, but mounted on its shaft is the (now) infamous spiral-grooved disc which provided the coupling between the motor and the head carriage. (at least on the dozen or so Disk II units in my collection...) B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Oct 12 15:13:02 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 12, 98 06:37:54 pm Message-ID: <199810122013.NAA16422@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 735 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981012/b75bcbdc/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Oct 12 15:16:19 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 12, 98 06:42:01 pm Message-ID: <199810122016.NAA14950@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 954 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981012/b163d2a7/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Oct 12 15:27:32 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: <199810122016.NAA14950@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Oct 12, 98 01:16:19 pm Message-ID: <199810122027.OAA08739@calico.litterbox.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 415 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981012/3e09440e/attachment.ksh From jruschme at exit109.com Mon Oct 12 15:20:39 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: auction grabs In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Oct 12, 98 06:35:06 pm" Message-ID: <199810122020.QAA10336@crobin.home.org> > > computer. Does WYSE ring a bell to anyone? But the biggest enigma is an > > Wyse terminals are fairly well-known, and I think they sold a PC clone at > one point. Actually several PC clones from 8088 up through at least the 80386. IIRC some of the later ones were quite stylish with diagonally-mounted LCDs (date, time, etc.). The later PCs and terminals used an RJ-11 (phone) connector for the keyboard cable. AS I recall, though, it was easily adaptable to an IBM AT connector. I believe the keyboards were interchangable between the PCs and terminals. The terminals are very popular in the used market since many vertical applications are written for them. My former employer actually managed to get something like $75 a piece from a reseller. <<>> From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Oct 12 15:45:03 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: auction grabs In-Reply-To: <199810122020.QAA10336@crobin.home.org> from "John Ruschmeyer" at Oct 12, 98 04:20:39 pm Message-ID: <199810122045.NAA17410@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 930 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981012/0ac9f2b0/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Oct 12 15:44:43 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: <199810121046.MAA04468@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Oct 12, 98 12:06:03 pm Message-ID: <199810122044.OAA08894@calico.litterbox.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 315 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981012/3b239c4e/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 12 16:20:59 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) In-Reply-To: <199810121925.PAA24529@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > Um, I don't care what anybody says, but that disk drive does NOT look > like anything similar to an Apple Disk II. BTW: I used to have a Disk > II, and the heads were positioned by a stepper motor, and didn't have > any "spiral-grooved disc" anywhere in the entire unit. -- You had a Unidisk. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 12 16:24:51 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: <19981012192933.19371.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 12 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > Even if not everyone here agrees that being on a single chip is a necessary > condition for something to be called a microprocessor, to the best of my > knowledge no one disagrees with the claim that Intel as the first to make > a single-chip CPU. I do. Ray Holt did it with AMI working for Garrett AiResearch in 1970. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 12 16:27:56 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > There seems to be a common myth that dilute mineral acids are extremely > harmful. They're not. You stomach contains reasonably concentrated HCl, > actually. It doesn't kill you. I would quite happily _drink_ dilute HCl > if I had to, knowing full well I'd live to tell you about it! Once it gets to your stomach you'd be fine. Going down your throat is a whole different sensation all together. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 12 16:49:53 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Mon, 12 Oct 1998 14:24:51 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981012214953.20332.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Even if not everyone here agrees that being on a single chip is a necessary > condition for something to be called a microprocessor, to the best of my > knowledge no one disagrees with the claim that Intel as the first to make > a single-chip CPU. Sam wrote: > I do. Ray Holt did it with AMI working for Garrett AiResearch in 1970. I read the web pages, but Microsoft Word 97 SR1 refuses to open any of the papers. The description on the web page doesn't seem to substantiate your claim that one of his chips could serve by itself as a usable CPU. The SLF chip apparently contains the control logic for a CPU, but the description does not suggest that it fetches instructions from memory. Russell Fish's "Analysis of the CADC F-14 Flight Computer" likens the SLF to the F8 CPU. However, the F8 CPU does in fact contain a program counter, as has been discussed here before. The F8 CPU is capable of fetching instructions, branching, and subroutine calls under its own control, as was (for example) the Intel 4004. The description of the SLF does not allude to any such capability. They were definitely quite remarkable chips for the time. From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 12 17:06:13 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <19981012220613.179.qmail@hotmail.com> But since most working implementations of an 8088 (the only one I have the databook for) require additional ICs, I'm wondering if it could truly be called a single-chip CPU. I mean, this thing needs chips for the clock line (8284, this says). It needs more chips for accessing RAM, and it needs RAM. Why do you say it's single chip? I think the only way to determine if it's a microprocessor is to look in the company's literature. If they call it an arithmetic logic unit, it's not a microprocessor. >failed to produce a working single-chip CPU before Intel. > >TI had a design, but it didn't prove to be manufacturable. > >Even if not everyone here agrees that being on a single chip is a necessary >condition for something to be called a microprocessor, to the best of my >knowledge no one disagrees with the claim that Intel as the first to make >a single-chip CPU. > >Eric > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pjoules at enterprise.net Mon Oct 12 18:06:05 1998 From: pjoules at enterprise.net (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > There seems to be a common myth that dilute mineral acids are extremely > harmful. They're not. Indeed, what are Coke and Pepsi but solutions of phosphoric acid with a little flavouring :) It is their acidity which makes them so refreshing (and dissolves 'copper' coins with such impressive rapidity) Sorry for the drift off topic Regards Pete From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Oct 12 17:29:49 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: from "Peter Joules" at Oct 12, 98 11:06:05 pm Message-ID: <199810122229.PAA05396@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 727 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981012/64bb8b24/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Mon Oct 12 17:35:39 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:19 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: <199810122229.PAA05396@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > creates stala[cg][mt]ites in caverns to the great satisfaction of your stala{ct,gm}ites. :-) -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 12 15:00:21 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) In-Reply-To: <199810121925.PAA24529@gate.usaor.net> from "Jason Willgruber" at Oct 11, 98 10:34:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 530 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981012/ba1c7998/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 12 17:52:40 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > Odd... I've got a number of Disk II's here, and every one has a stepper > motor under the chassis with a disk on the spindle of it above the > chassis. There's a spiral groove in the disk and a little lug on the head > assembly that fits into the groove. The stepper motor turns the disk and > thus moves the heads. > > Maybe there are several versions of the Disk II There is only one Disk ][. As mentioned before, the newer units were first called the Unidisk and then later simply 'Apple 5.25" Drive'. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Oct 12 17:58:30 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Oct 12, 98 05:35:39 pm Message-ID: <199810122258.PAA05854@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 544 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981012/694ff3f8/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 12 18:02:21 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards Message-ID: <199810122302.AA19735@world.std.com> < Your esophagus, on the other hand, might object to your drinking HCl (de < on how dilute, I guess). Actually a fairly powerful acid is the citric acid in lemons and limes that people can and do eat/drink. Most pharmaceuticals use citric, hydrocloric and some preps even nitric acid to get a the required PH. This is really way off track for cleaning boards unless they have been hit with a strong alkli (leaking nicads!), in which case a good dousing with vinegar (acetic acid) or lemon juice (citric acid) will neutralize that. Anyhow the PH and total acidity of a dishwasher unless useing something strange is fairly mild. Electrolytic corrosion (usually from ionic solutions and dissimilar metals) is prevented by quickly drying the board either with mild heat or forced air. Unless your water is bad (unsafe to drink) it is likely fine for washing a board. I've done this to 10-15 qbus cards, a Micronta DVM, and several s100 cards with the expected result, clean. I do it on boards I'll have to work on as it's less messy and in one case it cleared a short! FYI: I used to service marine radios when I lived on LI,NY and the procedure for dunked electronics was toss it in a barrel of clean water ASAP to get the salt out. This is repeated with several barrels of clean water to get all of the salt. Then the equipment is than opended, cleaned and repaired as needed (speakers, microphones, buzzers, enclosed coils). Generally speaking potable water is ok, mud worse (abrasive), salt is real nasty. Allison From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Oct 12 18:22:35 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: <199810122302.AA19735@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 12, 98 07:02:21 pm Message-ID: <199810122322.QAA08580@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1493 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981012/3d81783b/attachment.ksh From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Oct 12 18:08:18 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) Message-ID: <199810122321.TAA17719@gate.usaor.net> Mine was more like the mechanism of either a TRS-80 drive, or an IBM Tandon drive. The heads were connected to a horizontal stepper by a thin metal sheet. -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Tony Duell > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) > Date: Monday, October 12, 1998 4:00 PM > > > BTW: I used to have a Disk II, and the heads were positioned by a stepper > > motor, and didn't have any "spiral-grooved disc" anywhere in the entire > > unit. > > Odd... I've got a number of Disk II's here, and every one has a stepper > motor under the chassis with a disk on the spindle of it above the > chassis. There's a spiral groove in the disk and a little lug on the head > assembly that fits into the groove. The stepper motor turns the disk and > thus moves the heads. > > Maybe there are several versions of the Disk II > > -tony From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Oct 12 18:10:43 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) Message-ID: <199810122321.TAA17731@gate.usaor.net> Did the Unidisk look anything like the Disk II? OR could it have been possible that the drive mechanism was replaced in mine? -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) > Date: Monday, October 12, 1998 6:52 PM > > On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Odd... I've got a number of Disk II's here, and every one has a stepper > > motor under the chassis with a disk on the spindle of it above the > > chassis. There's a spiral groove in the disk and a little lug on the head > > assembly that fits into the groove. The stepper motor turns the disk and > > thus moves the heads. > > > > Maybe there are several versions of the Disk II > > There is only one Disk ][. As mentioned before, the newer units were > first called the Unidisk and then later simply 'Apple 5.25" Drive'. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Oct 12 18:21:59 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards Message-ID: <5cf84546.36228f17@aol.com> In a message dated 10/12/98 6:18:47 PM US Eastern Standard Time, jim@calico.litterbox.com writes: hope you scraped your dishes clean before you ran them through! lol. Hehe - actually I ran it with a load of dishes. :) > -- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Oct 12 18:30:48 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards (chocolate covered ICs...) In-Reply-To: <5cf84546.36228f17@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Oct 12, 98 07:21:59 pm Message-ID: <199810122330.RAA09136@calico.litterbox.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 333 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981012/88951ffe/attachment.ksh From rexstout at uswest.net Mon Oct 12 19:36:34 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Strange computer... ATR 8000 Message-ID: Picked this thing up at Wacky Willy's in Portland, OR for $5 with a floppy drive(actually two 5.25" drives in a case with a PS). Not quite sure what to think of it. It says ATR8000 SWP Microcomputer Products on the front, lighted power switch on front, and on the back we have two 13-pin Molex connectors marked Peripheral Out and Computer In, and three edge-connectors marked RS-232, Printer and Floppy Drive. Inside it says Software Publisher's ATR8000, and has a Z80 CPU, a WDC floppy IC and a VERY small amount of RAM... They assumed it was an Atari of some sort, as they recently got an 800 and 800XL. Does anyone have any idea what the ATR 8000 is? BTW, if you need some Univac disk packs(don't remember the numbers on it) they have two at WW's. Kinda expensive, they say they sell the platters seperatly to artists @$10 each. With 4 or 5 platters in each pack, you either need to shell out almost $50 or be good at convincing them that it's not worth that much(and it's not easy, I've tried before). BTW, it's at the Vaughn St. location, at the end of the Fremont bridge(US30 exit, then the Vaughn St exit from the exit ramp...). -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From aaron at wfi-inc.com Mon Oct 12 18:34:14 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Cipher F880 9-track Docs/Schematics Message-ID: I was cleaning out the garage and came across my one real documentation treasure, the doc binder for my Cipher F880 tape drive. The nifty thing is that they put all of the schematics, engineering data (including a price breakdown of every individual component), and mechanical diagrams (lots of blowups) in there too. Does anyone have a pressing need for this documentation? I won't give up the original, but if someone expresses some real interest I could scan it in and post it on a web server or something. It's a lot of material, but it's interesting that they give so much detailed technical information in there. I'll get around to it eventually anyway, just for archival purposes... Aaron From red at bears.org Mon Oct 12 18:39:18 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards (chocolate covered ICs...) In-Reply-To: <199810122330.RAA09136@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Jim Strickland wrote: > Hmmm. This board may smell pretty odd next time I power it up, huh? YM "lemon fresh". HTH, HAND ok r. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Oct 12 14:42:26 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: SCO Unix (Older version) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19981011155933.00939920@mail.jps.net> Message-ID: <199810122346.TAA08079@smtp.interlog.com> On 12 Oct 98 at 1:11, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Bruce Lane wrote: > > > >What was the original price of this thing, and to whom was it > > >marketed? > > > > Original price? God only knows. Knowing SCO, I'd be surprised if it was > > under $1,000 or so. > > According to the June 15 1993 PC Magazine (the NEW PCs), $1295 would get > you the basic SCO Open Desktop 2.0 for two users, and $4290 would get you > the complete package, licensed for unlimited users. > > The pricing was similar for Open Desktop 3.0 if I remember correctly from > my own travails in SCO-land. > > ok > r. In the DEC Rainbow FIDO archives there was also reference to using it on 'Bows. Since I see B.L's desciption mentions a 386 it must have been an earlier version. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Oct 12 14:42:27 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: No place to contact... yet... but be ready In-Reply-To: <199810120241.AA27281@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810122346.TAA08096@smtp.interlog.com> On 11 Oct 98 at 22:41, Megan wrote: > > >Xref: world alt.sys.pdp8:4263 > >Path: world!blanket.mitre.org!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!206.191.82.231!rockie.attcanada.net!attcanada!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.225!attworldnet!newsadm > >From: david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) > >Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 > >Subject: DEC Rainbows going up for sale > >Date: 11 Oct 1998 16:10:15 GMT > >Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services > >Lines: 20 > >Message-ID: <3621d6f7.30336552@netnews.worldnet.att.net> > >Reply-To: david.razler@worldnet.att.net > >NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.68.22.131 > >Mime-Version: 1.0 > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 > > > > If all goes well, my employer, The Press of Atlantic City, will be selling off > an almost unlimited stock of working DEC Rainbows in 1st Q '99 (and, boy will > I be glad to get something "modern" like a 486 on my desk.) > > Anyway, in addition to being collectors items in their own right, they have > the same basic mechanical and electrical components as the DECMates. Word I'm > getting is they'll go for cheap to anyone looking to keep them alive or in > need of parts, at or just over scrap value. > > Also up for grabs will be at least one major PDP-11 system. > > I'll keep the list posted with the latest news including when and how to order > your own PC-Clone and DECMate repair kit. > > dmr > > David M. Razler > david.razler@worldnet.att.net > Let us know Megan, I'm looking for a set of manuals for my 'bow and they might have spares when the time comes. lwalker@interlog.com From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 12 18:47:03 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Strange computer... ATR 8000 In-Reply-To: (message from John Rollins on Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:36:34 -0800) References: Message-ID: <19981012234703.20960.qmail@brouhaha.com> > to think of it. It says ATR8000 SWP Microcomputer Products on the front, It's a peripheral for an Atari 8-bitter, typically used with the Atari 800. It's used to interface 8 inch drives to the Atari, and to run CP/M. From rexstout at uswest.net Mon Oct 12 20:06:21 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Strange computer... ATR 8000 In-Reply-To: <19981012234703.20960.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (message from John Rollins on Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:36:34 -0800) Message-ID: >It's a peripheral for an Atari 8-bitter, typically used with the Atari 800. >It's used to interface 8 inch drives to the Atari, and to run CP/M. Yep, just found some info on the web... Maybe I'll go grab an 800 now. Is the 800 or the 800XL better? the XL is quite a bit smaller... But I think the plain old 800 has connectors that match the cable on the ATR8000. Anyways, the ATR8000 is one interesting box. Lets you run CP/M, can handle up to four 5.25" or 8" drives, and has the serial and printer ports... Interesting little box! -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Oct 12 19:08:01 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Strange computer... ATR 8000 Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981012172126.4137d2b4@ricochet.net> At 04:36 PM 10/12/98 -0800, you wrote: >Picked this thing up at Wacky Willy's in Portland, OR for $5 with a floppy >drive(actually two 5.25" drives in a case with a PS). Not quite sure what >to think of it. It says ATR8000 SWP Microcomputer Products on the front, >lighted power switch on front, and on the back we have two 13-pin Molex >connectors marked Peripheral Out and Computer In, and three edge-connectors That is a (iirc) CP/M(?) box for an atari 800. I believe it plugs into the 800 (or other 8-bit atari) and the atari is the terminal for the CP/M Machine. Pretty amazing device. (Pretty amazing that I recognized the name! 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 12 17:43:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: <199810122016.NAA14950@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Oct 12, 98 01:16:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 382 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981012/a6bf7756/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 12 19:37:51 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) In-Reply-To: <199810122321.TAA17719@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > Mine was more like the mechanism of either a TRS-80 drive, or an IBM Tandon > drive. The heads were connected to a horizontal stepper by a thin metal > sheet. What's called a "split band positioner". The first drives that Radio Shack retailed for the Model 1 were Shugart SA400s, with the infamous spiral grooved "phonograph" disk. Then IIRC, they switched to Tandon TM100-1, and then later TPI?. IBM started with Tandon TM100-2. IBM's first half height drives (PC JR, and Potable PC) were Qume-trak 142. The FIRST drives for the Apple ][ used a Shugart mechanism with the infamous grooved disk. I have no idea what they might have used later. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From yowza at yowza.com Mon Oct 12 19:46:51 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > Your esophagus, on the other hand, might object to your drinking HCl (depends > > on how dilute, I guess). > > Last time I vomitted, some of that stomach acid came up exactly the same > path as it would have to go down if I drank it. > > No, it wasn't pleasant, but it didn't kill me. And for the same reason, > drinking similarly dilute HCl would be unlikely to kill me as well. Research has shown that you won't be able to sing as well as you used to, and that beautiful women will avoid you due to your stinky breath, so don't do it! (And thanks for the lovely story.) -- Doug From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 12 19:47:11 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Columbus Day, sure seems like a lot of people going along with the idea of "marketing" Columbus as having been the "discoverer". Just like the majority of books going along with "marketing" the Intel 4004 as being the "first" whatever it was. The predecessors will be recorded, if at all, in most of the histories along with the Vikings and those from Asia who had settled the place a while back. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 12 19:53:34 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) In-Reply-To: <199810122321.TAA17719@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > Mine was more like the mechanism of either a TRS-80 drive, or an IBM Tandon > drive. The heads were connected to a horizontal stepper by a thin metal > sheet. And you are sure this was a full-height, Apple manufactured, metal enclosure, black face plate with the colorful apple logo, Disk ][? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 12 19:56:40 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Strange computer... ATR 8000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, John Rollins wrote: > Picked this thing up at Wacky Willy's in Portland, OR for $5 with a floppy > drive(actually two 5.25" drives in a case with a PS). Not quite sure what > to think of it. It says ATR8000 SWP Microcomputer Products on the front, > lighted power switch on front, and on the back we have two 13-pin Molex > connectors marked Peripheral Out and Computer In, and three edge-connectors > marked RS-232, Printer and Floppy Drive. Inside it says Software > Publisher's ATR8000, and has a Z80 CPU, a WDC floppy IC and a VERY small > amount of RAM... They assumed it was an Atari of some sort, as they > recently got an 800 and 800XL. Does anyone have any idea what the ATR 8000 > is? Its an Atari CP/M add-on module. Its actually a stand-alone CP/M box. You can add a terminal and disk drives to it to make it complete. It was sold mainly to the Atari market. With it came a terminal program carthridge for the Atari. The Atari then became a dumb terminal to the CP/M machine. You can hook Atari drives to it, and it came with an Atari CP/M system disk. If you didn't get one, I can make you a copy of mine, plus the manual, but I won't get to it for several weeks (standard disclaimer). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Oct 12 20:01:03 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: dishwasher and my 64 Message-ID: <199810130101.TAA09267@calico.litterbox.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 686 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981012/b1bd0cf4/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 12 20:15:57 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: dishwasher and my 64 In-Reply-To: <199810130101.TAA09267@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: >So okay, where DO I get a replacement keyboard for this thing? Also a case >in nicer condition would be nice. This one had a keyboard cover hinge >permanently cemented to the top. If you're in the US, just go to your local Goodwill. If it's a large one like the one in Portland they've basically always got them. One or two dead keyboards and a soldiering iron are a great source of keys (actually not sure that works on C-64's, but is great for the old Mac's). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 12 20:08:48 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) In-Reply-To: (cisin@xenosoft.com) References: Message-ID: <19981013010848.21324.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > IBM started with Tandon TM100-2. No, with the IBM PC (model 5150), they started with the TM100-1, a 40 track single sided disk. In PC-DOS 1.0 they only used 8 sectors per track, for a total disk capacity of 160K. In PC-DOS 1.1 they added support for the 9 sector format, increasing the capacity to 180K. IIRC, the dual-sided drives were not available (from IBM) until the introduction of PC-DOS 2.0. To this day, the MS-DOS format command still has options for single-sided and 8 SPT formats. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 12 20:10:45 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: dishwasher and my 64 In-Reply-To: <199810130101.TAA09267@calico.litterbox.com> (message from Jim Strickland on Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:01:03 -0600 (MDT)) References: <199810130101.TAA09267@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <19981013011045.21341.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jim Strickland writes: > Well, I reassembled the 64, after cutting a manilla file folder to replace > the paper between the metal shield on the back and the back of the board. ... > So okay, where DO I get a replacement keyboard for this thing? Also a case > in nicer condition would be nice. This one had a keyboard cover hinge > permanently cemented to the top. It would be much easier just to find an entire 64 in good condition. Keep the one you have now for spare parts. From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Oct 12 20:13:06 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) Message-ID: <199810130121.VAA13861@gate.usaor.net> Actually, I don't think the apple was the standard multi-colored apple. I think it was just red (If I remember correctly). It had the black face, with the front flip-down latch/door, and it had a metal enclosure. However, thinking back, I think it had a P/S in it (I no longer have it, because it wouldn't work with anything). I'm not sure about the P/S, but I do remember a round cord coming out of it. -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) > Date: Monday, October 12, 1998 8:53 PM > > And you are sure this was a full-height, Apple manufactured, metal > enclosure, black face plate with the colorful apple logo, Disk ][? > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > From wpe101 at banet.net Mon Oct 12 20:23:47 1998 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Wierdness References: Message-ID: <3622ABA3.147DAE45@banet.net> Would someone please check out accpc.com/home0.html#About, and enlighten some of us "historically challenged" individuals as to how much of their "history" is possibly truth vs. B.S.? Thanks, Will Rax wrote: > > Have y'all heard American Computer Company? They claim to have alien > technology that's going to enable them to come out with a chip that holds > 90 gigs. Uh-huh.... > > http://accpc.com/tcapdisplay.htm > 90 GB of Solid State Storage on a Single Wafer! > An original Semiconductor Device based upon J-S Dielectric-Junction > Electron-Bond-Species Manipulation Semiconductors arranged > in a High Density Ultra High Speed Integrated Quantum Junction Array > > I particularly like the Electron Bond Species Manipulation bit. > > R. > > -- > > Warbaby > The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. > http://www.warbaby.com > > The MonkeyPool > WebSite Content Development > http://www.monkeypool.com > > Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. From dcoward at pressstart.com Mon Oct 12 20:34:30 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Fairchild Channel F units Message-ID: <19981012181312.13974594.in@mail.pressstart.com> Doug Spence said: >Speaking of which... how common are the Channel Fs? I picked up several >cartridges for one some time ago, but I've never seen the actual unit. >I've only seen ads for them in old magazines. > I see one about every two years. I have 3, 2 of which are in boxes. And I've managed to collect all of the regular cartridges, except for #26, in the boxes with instructions. #19 is the hardest to find. http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum/mvfair.htm There was a second system (System II) that I believe was produced by the company that bought the rights to Channel F from Fairchild. The big differences in the two systems was that the original had a dark plexiglas cover over the controller storage compartment and the controllers were hard wired into the unit. It was the first home video game system to use programmed cartridges, but I think the cool thing about the Channel F was it 4 axis controller. ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 12 20:54:45 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) In-Reply-To: <19981013010848.21324.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > > IBM started with Tandon TM100-2. On 13 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > No, with the IBM PC (model 5150), they started with the TM100-1, a 40 track > single sided disk. In PC-DOS 1.0 they only used 8 sectors per track, for a > total disk capacity of 160K. Absolutely right! I stand corrected. > In PC-DOS 1.1 they added support for the 9 > sector format, increasing the capacity to 180K. > IIRC, the dual-sided drives were not available (from IBM) until the > introduction of PC-DOS 2.0. Actually, it was PC-DOS 1.10 (and MS-DOS 1.25) that provided DS, and 2.0 provided the 9SPT. Thus the 320K format came before the 180K/360K. There were also unofficial patches for 1.00 to do DS, but using the second side as if it were another drive. > To this day, the MS-DOS format command still has options for single-sided > and 8 SPT formats. SHHHHH! Don't say anything or MS will take out that backward compatibility. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From yowza at yowza.com Mon Oct 12 21:04:01 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Wierdness In-Reply-To: <3622ABA3.147DAE45@banet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Will Emerson wrote: > Would someone please check out accpc.com/home0.html#About, and enlighten > some of us "historically challenged" individuals as to how much of their > "history" is possibly truth vs. B.S.? And if there are any shrinks in the house, I think he'd make a great case study! In addition to inventing the GUI, the IBM PC, Sun Workstations and Apples, as well as several CPUs, he's created a "computer science" organization and nominated himself for Computer Scientist of the Year! http://www.acsa.net/1996b2.html This makes his Alien Chip look normal. -- Doug From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Oct 12 21:05:12 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) Message-ID: <396e9d0d.3622b558@aol.com> the infamous grooved disk? is there anything wrong with that design? looks fairly clever and reliable. i havent seen any wear problems with the 20+ apple disk drives i have. the only minor issue is adjusting the head stop for which all you have to do is sight a little dot on the grooved disk (apple calls it a cam) with the little metal cam follower and make adjustments as needed. david In a message dated 10/12/98 7:46:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time, cisin@xenosoft.com writes: > The FIRST drives for the Apple ][ used a Shugart mechanism with the > infamous grooved disk. I have no idea what they might have used later. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Oct 12 21:06:55 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: dishwasher and my 64 Message-ID: jeez,. if anyone needs a 64, ive got 3 i want to get rid of. i'm apple ][ biased. =D In a message dated 10/12/98 8:37:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time, eric@brouhaha.com writes: > Jim Strickland writes: > > Well, I reassembled the 64, after cutting a manilla file folder to replace > > the paper between the metal shield on the back and the back of the board. > ... > > So okay, where DO I get a replacement keyboard for this thing? Also a > case > > in nicer condition would be nice. This one had a keyboard cover hinge > > permanently cemented to the top. > > It would be much easier just to find an entire 64 in good condition. Keep > the one you have now for spare parts. From fauradon at pclink.com Mon Oct 12 21:11:27 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Fairchild Channel F units Message-ID: <000601bdf64e$c9de1a20$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> >#19 is the hardest to find. How about the demo cart #2? Is that a har to find Item? Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon Oct 12 22:06:11 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Microprocessor holy wars... References: <199810120702.AAA01695@lists5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3622C3A0.9F30511B@goldrush.com> > From: Uncle Roger > Subject: Re: Corrections to trivia > > At 09:51 PM 10/7/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Intel came out the winners; they wanted it the most. But it would have > >happened with or without them. You had the 6800, the 6502 and a whole > >slew of others. The computers built around those processors were just as > >relevant and would have happened anyway. > > I will admit up front that I don't know everything, and I am not an EE > (dropped out of community college) but it seems to me that Intel hadn't won > anything until ~81 when IBM came out with their PC. Until then, the Z80 > and 6502 were as dominant (if not more so) than the 8080/8085? I'd believe that: Z80 (CP/M) 6502 (Apple). > In fact, I'll go so far as to suggest that perhaps if IBM had gone with, > say, the z8000, Intel would not be anywhere near as big as it is? > > It seems to me that what really got the "cheap computer revolution" going > was the Z80 (CP/M, TRS-80, etc.) and the 6502 (Atari, Commodore, Apple II). > Because no matter what the tech-heads are doing in their garages, nothing > is a revolution until you can buy it at Sears. One of the driving forces behind the prevelance of non-Intel micros in the 70s was that Intel processors were expensive (actually they still are!). I think the 8080 was about $200 when MOS started selling 6502s for under $40. Of course with that Intel lowered thier prices (to about $100 or so). Not to say that the Z80, 6502 and others were bad CPUs, it's just that Intel was not looking for the hobbiest/home market at all, and if it wern't for a big business name (IBM) behind it it would still be looking for a 'killer box' (like 'killer app' is to software) to be used in. And IBM was known for the safe route, proven chips and designs, (no innovation made cloning alot easier) and Intel had the name and a good track record among business machine microprocessors. -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From gram at cnct.com Mon Oct 12 16:11:06 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Internet Question References: <3.0.16.19981011153043.832f11f2@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <36227069.C72E3EC4@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 06:06 PM 10/9/98 -0800, you wrote: > >Does anyone remember the cost of internet access/online time via Compuserve > >in the 80s ? I need to give a comparison of today's cost of sending a > >graphics file. > > I seem to remember it as something like $12/hour for 300/1200bps and > $24/hour for 2400bps. $6.00/hr for 300, $1200/hr for 1200. The pricing reshuffled when 2400 became common, by then I was no longer active (about 1989 IIRC). -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From gram at cnct.com Mon Oct 12 21:55:29 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia References: <199810112300.TAA07917@crobin.home.org> Message-ID: <3622C121.C50C7114@cnct.com> John Ruschmeyer wrote: > > Columbus did NOT tell the world that it wasn't flat. By the time of > > Columbus, that was well known and accepted by all educated people. The > > only ones who still thought that it was flat are now paying dollars per > > minute for telephone psychic readings. Although there were some fears of > > dangers, sailing off the edge was NOT taken seriously as a possibility by > > anybody with any education. > > Looking at it another way, Columbus really did nothing to disprove the > flatness of the Earth. Ultimately, all he did was sail west until he hit > a piece of land that was not the easternmost land that he wanted to hit. > So, he did not prove the world was round (that would have to wait for > Magellan) nor did he fall off the edge. All he really did was find more > land to the west of Europe. > > Definately overrated... :-) It's a long way from on-topic for this list, but here's a bit of the story. Educated people had known the world was spherical since the Greek "Golden Age". There were two estimates of the size, one being that the circumference was about 18,000 miles and the other (more widely accepted since ancient times and reasonably accurate) 25,000 miles. Cristobal Colon argued for the earlier value. The arguments against him were based on the real value, not that the world was flat but that the added 7,000 miles would be impossible to cross. Colon accidentally found land closer than he expected -- he and his crews would have starved even if his distance was right and the Americas did not exist. It is true that sailors in those days were leery of sailing too far from coast -- because there was no way to determine longitude until accurate clocks were developed many years later. As it is, Colon is reported to have died convinced that what he had found was Asia. Then again, even today, people seem to think that Europe and Asia are separate continents, even with vastly better maps and roads and rails crossing the border between them in many places. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From handyman at sprintmail.com Mon Oct 12 10:06:18 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Fairchild Channel F units References: <19981012181312.13974594.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <36221AEA.9DE4DA8@sprintmail.com> Doug Coward wrote: > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum/mvfair.htm > There was a second system (System II) that I believe was produced by the > company that bought the rights to Channel F from Fairchild. The big > differences in the two systems was that the original had a dark plexiglas > cover over the controller storage compartment and the controllers were hard > wired into the unit. It was the first home video game system to use > programmed cartridges, but I think the cool thing about the Channel F was > it 4 axis controller. Doug, I also have one of the second (System II) machines.. Out of the three F8's I have 2 are dead.. This machine is getting very hard to find, it would be classified as the first generation prorammed cartridge machines..How about the RCA Studio II machine ? I believe that this machine was a close second of the "First Generation Programable Game Machines" I purchased one of these at Radio Shack as a closeout for $59.00 in 1977.. Have you ever seen one of these machines ? Check this site out: http://newton.physics.arizona.edu/~hart/vgh/main.html As far as I know the Fairchild F8 microprocessor was not used in any other applications, however the RCA 1802 microprocessor was used in many industrial applications.. Phil.. From gram at cnct.com Mon Oct 12 21:58:20 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Fairchild Channel F References: <199810110702.AAA23603@lists2.u.washington.edu> <36210A81.6AECD38F@goldrush.com> <3620AD77.E1967CB@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: <3622C1CC.A01F5171@cnct.com> Phil Clayton wrote: > how build an interface to turn the game machine into an RCA Cosmac computer. I never > completed the project because I purchased a Radio Shack Model 1 and was Hooked on it > after that. It had a Whopping 4K RAM, and a very crude basic that as I remember supported > only 2 String Variables, (Can you say Key bounce) .. Boy did I have fun with that machine. > I recently acquired another TRS-80 Model One, to replace my long lost one, and just > looking at it made me feel 20 years younger... Gads am I rambling on here or what!!!.. > !!! I don't recall keybounce being a problem with Level I BASIC -- it reared its ugly head after the upgrade to Level II. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 12 22:00:27 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) In-Reply-To: <199810130121.VAA13861@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > Actually, I don't think the apple was the standard multi-colored apple. I > think it was just red (If I remember correctly). It had the black face, > with the front flip-down latch/door, and it had a metal enclosure. > However, thinking back, I think it had a P/S in it (I no longer have it, > because it wouldn't work with anything). I'm not sure about the P/S, but I > do remember a round cord coming out of it. A round cord? The Disk ]['s had a flat ribbon cable that connected to the Disk ][ Controller. They got their power thru this cord. All the Disk ]['s I have on hand (about 5) have the multi-colored Apple logo. Although the solid red Apple sounds distinctly familiar on some piece of equipment. To be safe, I'll say as far as I know, and as far as the internals of every Disk ][ I've seen go, they've all had the grooved disk for positioning the head. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 12 22:11:10 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Wierdness In-Reply-To: <3622ABA3.147DAE45@banet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Will Emerson wrote: > Would someone please check out accpc.com/home0.html#About, and enlighten > some of us "historically challenged" individuals as to how much of their > "history" is possibly truth vs. B.S.? Ignore it. This is someone's elaborate (but not very well done) attempt at fraud. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Oct 12 22:17:46 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Microsci HAVAC Message-ID: <4664b36.3622c65a@aol.com> I can't believe I am doing this much research on a computer I have already sold, but it is interesting. I found the Havac (that is it's name) in the "what's New?" column in Byte, May, 1984. It is an Apple work-alike and they also call it a transportable Computer. It uses the 6502 processor and a 164K 5 1/4" floppy. 64K of ram and 8K of rom and has high res color graphics. The manufacturer claims that over a 1000 Apple II programs will run on it. It is supposed to have printer, serial and Game ports beside the external floppy connector. It's suggested list was $850. I couldn't find an advertisement though, only the announcement. the good news is that I found a couple of boot disks in my archives which I will send to Kai. Paxton From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Mon Oct 12 22:18:12 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: MMD-2 Message-ID: <199810130318.XAA23771@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Hey, I've got a couple of E&L MMD-2's here. These are neat little 8080 educational SBC's. Hex keypad, "function" keypad, 7-segment LED's, and three sets of 8 LED's for I/O ports 0, 1, 2. Includes a cassette interface, bus expansion connector, serial interface, and even an EPROM programmer for 2708/2716's. Most impressive! But I didn't get any sort of manuals with them. I've figured out most of the obvious stuff, but it would be nice to know the format expected by the "load" function, the meaning of a few unlabelled switches/jumpers, the meaning of "BRL HI" and "BRL LO", and so on. Anybody remember these things? Thanks, Bill. PS. These things seem to be using the word "pop" to mean "burn", as in "popping an EPROM". Was this a widespread usage? I've heard the words "burn", "blow", and "program" used this way, but "pop" is new to me. From yowza at yowza.com Mon Oct 12 22:22:27 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Wierdness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Ignore it. This is someone's elaborate (but not very well done) attempt > at fraud. Elaborate is right, and there's a poor attempt at fraud as well (he solicits donations), but I vote for crazy. -- Doug From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 12 22:22:05 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Software Collecting References: <199810120702.AAA01695@lists5.u.washington.edu> <3622C3A0.9F30511B@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <3622C75D.78E578C0@rain.org> Does anyone on this list collect software, and if so, what is considered desireable software to collect? On a similar note, is there any value to collecting software for the Apple II series or the C-64 series of computers? It seems like that type of software is almost throwaway (and that is a shame.) From gram at cnct.com Mon Oct 12 22:26:47 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: auction grabs References: Message-ID: <3622C877.9B341109@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > computer. Does WYSE ring a bell to anyone? But the biggest enigma is an > > Wyse terminals are fairly well-known, and I think they sold a PC clone at > one point. They sure did. I remember back in 88-89 preparing a bunch of Wyse 286 PCs for delivery to a customer. Eight systems. We went through 14 systems to deliver those eight as I recall -- numerous DOA machines from the distributor. (While we normally carried Wyse terminals, we didn't normally deal in their PCs, but the customer insisted). They looked like clock radios on steroids. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From handyman at sprintmail.com Mon Oct 12 10:41:09 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: 16K RAM was 300 bucks in 1977 References: <199810110702.AAA23603@lists2.u.washington.edu> <36210A81.6AECD38F@goldrush.com> <3620AD77.E1967CB@sprintmail.com> <3622C1CC.A01F5171@cnct.com> Message-ID: <36222315.3FB1B1E4@sprintmail.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Phil Clayton wrote: > I purchased a Radio Shack Model 1 and was Hooked on it > > after that. It had a Whopping 4K RAM, and a very crude basic that as I remember supported > > only 2 String Variables, (Can you say Key bounce) .. > > I don't recall keybounce being a problem with Level I BASIC -- it reared its ugly head after > the upgrade to Level II. > -- Yes, I think you are correct, I recall I never had the problem untill I spent the $299.00 to upgrade it to Level 2 Basic, Oh Yes then another $299.00 for an additional 16K RAM. In fact my recently acquired RS Model One with Level 2 basic has the problem big time. As I recall some tuner cleaner or alcohol rubbed on the contacts underneath the key tops will resolve the problem for awhile.. I remember I had around $1,300 in this machine and still didn't have a floppy drive.. I never did purchase the expansion accessories for the unit. In 1980 I moved into a Commodore Pet with a single IEEE Floppy drive, this was like heaven, A nice clear green 9 inch monochrome monitor, no more cassette tapes, 32K RAM, what more could a person want.. Well OK, add a Printer another $700.00, and a 300 baud modem $200.00.. And at about $2600.00 I had a dream machine.. Phil... From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 12 22:57:35 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Software Collecting In-Reply-To: <3622C75D.78E578C0@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote: > Does anyone on this list collect software, and if so, what is considered > desireable software to collect? The obvious packages like the original Visicalc for the Apple, Lotus for the PC. There was a huge burst of interest on the Apple2 newsgroups last year in the original Ultima's, with the first Ultima in the original packaging with all the pieces fetching up to $300. Software is certainly collectable. How are you going to run all your collectable machines without it? > On a similar note, is there any value to collecting software for the Apple > II series or the C-64 series of computers? It seems like that type of > software is almost throwaway (and that is a shame.) Well, good. The more other people throw away, the more my library of Apple II software will be worth. I collect any and all software I find, for any platform, and on any medium. Its a definite part of the history, and collecting the machines but ignoring the software is, in my opinion, foolish. A lot of programs, especially the earlier Apple II and Commodore software, was not published in mass numbers like you have these days. Maybe 5,000 - 20,000 was typical for the biggest hits (the rest of the people got copies :) Having early software with the original manual and packaging will be a critical part of any collection in the future as it adds breadth to systems in the collection. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From nerdware at laidbak.com Mon Oct 12 23:10:56 1998 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (nerdware@laidbak.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Wierdness In-Reply-To: References: <3622ABA3.147DAE45@banet.net> Message-ID: <199810130408.XAA28394@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:04:01 -0500 (CDT) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Doug Yowza To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Off-Topic Wierdness Originally to: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Dang! If this guy has this much energy and spare time, maybe I can get him to work on my website, since I don't have any spare time or energy myself...... > On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Will Emerson wrote: > > > Would someone please check out accpc.com/home0.html#About, and enlighten > > some of us "historically challenged" individuals as to how much of their > > "history" is possibly truth vs. B.S.? > > And if there are any shrinks in the house, I think he'd make a great case > study! > > In addition to inventing the GUI, the IBM PC, Sun Workstations and Apples, > as well as several CPUs, he's created a "computer science" organization > and nominated himself for Computer Scientist of the Year! > http://www.acsa.net/1996b2.html > > This makes his Alien Chip look normal. > > -- Doug > > Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Mon Oct 12 19:22:32 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:20 2005 Subject: auction grabs In-Reply-To: <3622C877.9B341109@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199810130358.XAA13678@commercial.cgocable.net> > Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 23:26:47 -0400 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Ward Donald Griffiths III > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: auction grabs Snip! > looked like clock radios on steroids. > -- > Ward Griffiths > > When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any > firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright > Non standard monitors to go with those! :( Boo hiss That LCD display is backlighted - I assume yours is now dead long since. I know that when I worked on it and it did have circuit traces and holes to take 1MB x 1bit chips and 256K x 1bit. To convert to 4MB, major solder work. Yuk. Weird machine. But I don't enjoy this one anyway so it went by without misgivings. I'm amazed at high failure rate. That real bad. Jason D. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 12 23:30:57 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Software Collecting In-Reply-To: <3622C75D.78E578C0@rain.org> References: <199810120702.AAA01695@lists5.u.washington.edu> <3622C3A0.9F30511B@goldrush.com> Message-ID: >Does anyone on this list collect software, and if so, what is considered >desireable software to collect? > >On a similar note, is there any value to collecting software for the Apple >II series or the C-64 series of computers? It seems like that type of >software is almost throwaway (and that is a shame.) If I find software I usually grab it. Of course around here you rarely find any, and I've had better luck finding 8" CP/M stuff than I've had finding Apple // or C-64 stuff. Of course I've dug up tons of Amiga software, but then a lot of it I've gotten new since I got my first Amiga a little over a year ago. I look at it this way, what good is the hardware if you don't have at least one piece of software to run on it. Of course OS's are what I really like :^) Who needs some lame application or game when you've got a really cool OS :^) The perfect example, OS/2 is a seriously cool OS, but every app I ever bought was seriously lame. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From gram at cnct.com Mon Oct 12 23:45:28 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: 16K RAM was 300 bucks in 1977 References: <199810110702.AAA23603@lists2.u.washington.edu> <36210A81.6AECD38F@goldrush.com> <3620AD77.E1967CB@sprintmail.com> <3622C1CC.A01F5171@cnct.com> <36222315.3FB1B1E4@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: <3622DAE8.509068F9@cnct.com> Phil Clayton wrote: > Yes, I think you are correct, I recall I never had the problem untill I spent the $299.00 to > upgrade it to Level 2 Basic, Oh Yes then another $299.00 for an additional 16K RAM. In fact my > recently acquired RS Model One with Level 2 basic has the problem big time. As I recall some > tuner cleaner or alcohol rubbed on the contacts underneath the key tops will resolve the problem > for awhile.. I remember I had around $1,300 in this machine and still didn't have a floppy > drive.. I never did purchase the expansion accessories for the unit. Keybounce was a periodic problem with my first system under Level II. It came back every time I turned the machine over and dumped out the month or two worth of cigarette ashes that had accumulated, lasted maybe a week until I'd dropped enough more inside. > > In 1980 I moved into a Commodore Pet with a single IEEE Floppy drive, this was like heaven, A > nice clear green 9 inch monochrome monitor, no more cassette tapes, 32K RAM, what more could a > person want.. Well OK, add a Printer another $700.00, and a 300 baud modem $200.00.. And at > about $2600.00 I had a dream machine.. Phil... Checked out a Pet with the original tiny rectangle keyboard before I went with the TRS-80. Yuck. Turned me off the Pet (and anything else with a 6502) to this very day (and the Atari 400 keyboard didn't help much either). -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 13 00:00:42 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Software Collecting In-Reply-To: References: <3622C75D.78E578C0@rain.org> Message-ID: >Having early software with the original manual and packaging will be a >critical part of any collection in the future as it adds breadth to >systems in the collection. This is a valid point. A computer sitting in a musuem with software and manuals around it is a lot more interesting than just the computer sitting there. Especially if it's a non-functional example of the system. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From marvin at rain.org Tue Oct 13 00:18:39 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Software Collecting References: <3622C75D.78E578C0@rain.org> Message-ID: <3622E2AF.ECE851ED@rain.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >Having early software with the original manual and packaging will be a > >critical part of any collection in the future as it adds breadth to > >systems in the collection. > > This is a valid point. A computer sitting in a musuem with software and > manuals around it is a lot more interesting than just the computer sitting > there. Especially if it's a non-functional example of the system. The real question is how much breadth! For myself, I keep all original disks (and cassettes) for systems dated in the 70's and before. Well okay, I keep everything for those systems. However when a school dumped all their teaching software for Commodore and Apple computers, I picked it all up since I didn't want it going to the dump. This stuff is dated in the middle 80's. I tend to segregate any original Apple or Commodore software, but the question becomes what to do with the rest. As Sam said, some of the classic games and productivity software are worth keeping. But what about the rest? From spc at armigeron.com Wed Oct 14 01:18:56 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Software Collecting In-Reply-To: <3622E2AF.ECE851ED@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Oct 12, 98 10:18:39 pm Message-ID: <199810140618.CAA02363@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 676 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981014/720cb089/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at jps.net Tue Oct 13 00:30:39 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Cipher F880 9-track Docs/Schematics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981012223039.0095e7a0@mail.jps.net> At 16:34 12-10-98 -0700, you wrote: >Does anyone have a pressing need for this documentation? I won't give up >the original, but if someone expresses some real interest I could scan it >in and post it on a web server or something. It's a lot of material, but >it's interesting that they give so much detailed technical information in >there. I'll get around to it eventually anyway, just for archival >purposes... I have several 880's here. If you would be willing to do as you describe, it would help me greatly. Let me know if you do eventually decide to dump the originals. I'll gladly pay shipping, and a little extra. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 13 00:59:25 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Software Collecting In-Reply-To: <3622E2AF.ECE851ED@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote: > I keep everything for those systems. However when a school dumped all their > teaching software for Commodore and Apple computers, I picked it all up > since I didn't want it going to the dump. This stuff is dated in the middle > 80's. I tend to segregate any original Apple or Commodore software, but the > question becomes what to do with the rest. Offer it to us here on the list. I'm sure you'll be rid of it within a week. Otherwise, offer it up for sale on the appropriate newsgroup at a rock-bottom price for the whole lot. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 13 01:03:06 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Wyse PCs (was Re: auction grabs) References: <199810130358.XAA13678@commercial.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <3622ED1A.B372E281@cnct.com> jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote: > > looked like clock radios on steroids. > > > Non standard monitors to go with those! :( Boo hiss No, those went with standard VGA displays. > > That LCD display is backlighted - I assume yours is now dead long > since. I know that when I worked on it and it did have circuit > traces and holes to take 1MB x 1bit chips and 256K x 1bit. To > convert to 4MB, major solder work. Yuk. > > Weird machine. > > But I don't enjoy this one anyway so it went by without misgivings. > I'm amazed at high failure rate. That real bad. I prepped a batch for a customer, I never owned one, never will, although I do have a few Wyse terminals. But six bad machines out of fourteen turned me off forever on Wyse computers -- from the missing components on a couple of motherboards, there is no way those boards had ever seen power before we pulled the assembled CPUs out of the boxes to install operating systems (and AboveBoards and tape drives). I have to assume that there was no direct connection below the Board of Directors level between the terminal and PC divisions. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 13 06:32:16 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <199810131013.MAA09720@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Then again, even today, people seem to think that Europe and Asia are > separate continents, even with vastly better maps and roads and rails > crossing the border between them in many places. They are, at least in the same way as Europe ans Africa. Gruss H. BTW: is there _any_ African Computer known ? Maybe Kits or other Homebrew from SA or even a 'real' homecomputer/Bussinessystem ? -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Innfogra at aol.com Tue Oct 13 05:40:58 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Pre - Columbus traveler with classic computer? Message-ID: In a message dated 98-10-13 03:37:16 EDT, you write: << is true that sailors in those days were leery of sailing too far from coast -- because there was no way to determine longitude until accurate clocks were developed many years later. >> We know now that the Egyptians knew the 25,000 mile figure around 700 BC and possibly much earlier. Recently they pulled a brass differential geared device that may be an astronomical calculator from a wreck in the Mediterainian that dates back to 300 - 400 BC. I bet the device is older yet, it is hard to carbon date brass. They recently discovered settlements on the south coast of Chile that date back 30,000 yrs. I believe that there was regular but infrequent trade & travel between Egypt and South America 4000 years ago. My question is which way did they go, the long way, via China, the Bearing Straits and down the west coast of the Americas; or did they go the short way, which is from the westernmost tip of Africa straight across the Atlantic. This distance is is shorter than the length of the Mediterainian. If you were able to calculate the distance one had traveled by going the long way (I think this was done first); I would think that the short way would become obvious. To get back to classic computers, I bet this brass device is one of the first computers, if differential geared devices count. My question is why did everything go to Hell between 300BC and 0AD? How could you believe the earth was flat? Where did this idea come from? Paxton From Aaron_J_Hayden at student.ferris.edu Tue Oct 13 06:22:36 1998 From: Aaron_J_Hayden at student.ferris.edu (Aaron_J_Hayden@student.ferris.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Thanks for the help. Message-ID: <8525669C.003E7F07.00@fsunotes2.ferris.edu> I'd like to thank everybody who gave me info on the PC Jr. I got it going late last week. It turns out it needs two power supplies for the cpu. Apparently the people who owned it before me had it upgraded and the upgrade requires it's own power. I saw the second power plug, but it wasn't marked and I didn't think of it needing a second supply. Anyway, it runs like a top now. All of the info was greatly appreciated. Aaron From david_a._vandenbroucke at hud.gov Tue Oct 13 09:13:54 1998 From: david_a._vandenbroucke at hud.gov (david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Vaporware (and not) from '83 CES Message-ID: <9810139082.AA908284012@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> The CC-40 was real. I have one. Dav Vandenbroucke Economist U.S. Dept. HUD david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov AT INTERNET on 10/11/98 02:47:22 AM To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu AT INTERNET@CCMAILDOM cc: (bcc: David A. Vandenbroucke/PDR/HHQ/HUD) Subject: Re: Vaporware (and not) from '83 CES -------------- next part -------------- On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > - TI CC-40 (Compact Computer 40, laptop like Epson HX-20, 4 AA cells, 31 > character LCD display, $249) From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 13 08:49:39 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) Message-ID: <199810131349.AA17475@world.std.com> < the infamous grooved disk? is there anything wrong with that design? loo < fairly clever and reliable. i havent seen any wear problems with the 20+ < disk drives i have. the only minor issue is adjusting the head stop for < all you have to do is sight a little dot on the grooved disk (apple call < cam) with the little metal cam follower and make adjustments as needed. The biggest is the follower could slip out of the groove requiring manual intervention. They were also very slow step rates 30-40ms! I also found that there was enough mechanical hysteresis plagueing them to affect media portability. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 13 08:49:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Fairchild Channel F Message-ID: <199810131349.AA17561@world.std.com> < I don't recall keybounce being a problem with Level I BASIC -- it < reared its ugly head after the upgrade to Level II. Correct. L1 basic had a good keyscan routine. LII basic it got mucked up in the interest of speed. Allison From jsalzman at hersheys.com Tue Oct 13 08:58:40 1998 From: jsalzman at hersheys.com (Salzman, Jeff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Wyse Systems (was RE: auction grabs) Message-ID: I worked for a company once as a service tech fixing CPT Word Processing systems. When PC based word processing started to become popular (mid '80s), CPT bridged the gap between their longtime standalone word processing units and desktop PCs by using Wyse PC clones (the ones with the blue backlit LCD display on them). They primarily consisted of a clone style case with an expansion board. The CPU board plugged into the expansion board like an add-on card and was primarily an entire 286 or 386 computer on a card. The keyboard connector was an RJ-11 with an optional DIN adaptor for conventional keyboards. The other card typically found in the system was a bridgeboard which was an entire CPT system on a card with a monochrome video out. The 2 cards talked to each other and became a full computer with built in CPT word processing simultaneosly running along with a DOS/windows based environment. The monitor was a portrait style page white display. The on screen display could be split to show DOS on top and CPT on the bottom or made to show a full screen CPT system as the CPT systems were originally designed. Many govornment agencys used these systems to bridge their own transition from dedicated word processing systems to PCs. Jeff Salzman >> > computer. Does WYSE ring a bell to anyone? But the biggest enigma is an >> >> Wyse terminals are fairly well-known, and I think they sold a PC clone at >> one point. > >Actually several PC clones from 8088 up through at least the 80386. IIRC >some of the later ones were quite stylish with diagonally-mounted LCDs >(date, time, etc.). > >The later PCs and terminals used an RJ-11 (phone) connector for the >keyboard cable. AS I recall, though, it was easily adaptable to an IBM >AT connector. I believe the keyboards were interchangable between the PCs >and terminals. > From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 13 09:05:37 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 12, 98 11:43:12 pm Message-ID: <199810131405.HAA14740@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1209 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981013/305464f9/attachment.ksh From cad at gamewood.net Tue Oct 13 08:52:50 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Pre - Columbus traveler with classic computer? References: Message-ID: <36235B32.7ACC@gamewood.net> Innfogra@aol.com wrote: snip > > My question is why did everything go to Hell between 300BC and 0AD? How could > you believe the earth was flat? Where did this idea come from? > Paxton Wasn't that around the time of the burning of the 'library' in Alexandria? Chuck From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Tue Oct 13 05:07:36 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Wyse PCs (was Re: auction grabs) In-Reply-To: <3622ED1A.B372E281@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199810131343.JAA15869@commercial.cgocable.net> > Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 02:03:06 -0400 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Ward Donald Griffiths III > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Wyse PCs (was Re: auction grabs) > jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote: > > > > looked like clock radios on steroids. > > > > > Non standard monitors to go with those! :( Boo hiss > > No, those went with standard VGA displays. I sincerely meant it. At that time around 4 years ago, I happen to have the oddball 16" mono wyse monitor and the that thing but between 2 no video card to drive that thing. That monitor can be driven up to incrediable high resolution better than 1024x768. Did call Wyse tech support, yuk! Took me a while to find out the cost to get that card cost too much for that value I think 100US. Not long afterwards, machine was gone to a user who needs one with standard monitor + card and 3 years later, that cursed monitor thrown out because I couldn't find the card for it. Oh, that wyse 286 is pretty stock clone and phoenix bios setup.exe on a disk for setting up CMOS contents does works. Funny, I did saw exact type of wyse 286 around that time after I sold that dumb 286 thingy with dreadful monitor that had that oddball card when it was in repairs. I know because those 286 circuit boards are not that great quality as expected of for that expense compared to IBM 50Z box. Even 55SX is good deal! Oh, Those wyse terminals needs upgrade kits to keep them working reliablibly. Reminds me of those compact mac analog board upgrade kit. Both you can still can get them around 30 or so from CCS. I clearly recall seeing at least 10 wyse terminals in repairs at any given time. Horrific! Gee, they shouldn't have used wyse terminal features and stuck with standardized DEC VT programming routines because that is more common than wyse terminals usually. I mean number of standard and clones for VT terminal series compared to wyse. Jason D. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 13 08:35:05 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Software Collecting In-Reply-To: <199810140618.CAA02363@armigeron.com> References: <3622E2AF.ECE851ED@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981013083505.00ce0b70@pc> At 02:18 AM 10/14/98 -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 13 09:11:26 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: dishwasher and my 64 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 12, 98 06:15:57 pm Message-ID: <199810131411.HAA13664@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1097 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981013/ffd747c6/attachment.ksh From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 13 10:45:33 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Pre - Columbus traveler with classic computer? Message-ID: <199810131426.QAA08360@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> My question is why did everything go to Hell between 300BC and 0AD? How could >> you believe the earth was flat? Where did this idea come from? >> Paxton > Wasn't that around the time of the burning of the 'library' in > Alexandria? > Chuck In fact, did anybody belive this, or is it just a urban legend ? :) H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 13 09:57:46 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Pre - Columbus traveler with classic computer? Message-ID: <199810131457.AA16031@world.std.com> < >> My question is why did everything go to Hell between 300BC and 0AD? H < >> you believe the earth was flat? Where did this idea come from < < > Wasn't that around the time of the burning of the 'library' in < > Alexandria? < < In fact, did anybody belive this, or is it just a < urban legend ? I think it is ascribed to the dark ages, roughly 700-1400AD Europe. The polical power of the church was strong then and science was nearly exitinct. Allison From MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com Tue Oct 13 10:21:04 1998 From: MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Fairchild Channel F units Message-ID: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5D7D@NTS_EXCH> The Democarts, (both of them) and #19 are very hard to find. From talking with other collectors, the democarts appear to be slightly more common. Personally, I have a Channel F, Boxed Channel F II, and 23 of the 28 carts; but I don't have #19, or either of the Democarts. There was also a picture of a keyboard controller (K-1) on the box for Channel F II. Perhaps a prototype exists for it. As I recall the F8 was a microcontroller in the same vein as the 8048; but that it multiplexed it's address and data lines; allowing for fewer connectors on the cartridges. I think it also had 64 bytes of internal RAM; organized as set of registers (sorta) which probably means that there was no ram in the system. I suspect the Channel F R&D effort was a rather small one; I had a chance to learn about the R&D effort behind the Magnavox Odyssey^2, and discovered that there was only a handful of people behind it doing the actual development (one guy wrote half the game library) and that it had very poor support from management at magnavox. All throughout the history of it, from 1978 to 1983, they were always told "this will be the last stuff you do for the O^2, then we pull the plug" and each time they'll sell out the latest run of carts/systems and be given a reprieve. management finally became serious about it in 1983 just in time for the video game crash. The Odyssey^2 had an Intel 8048 with a 512 byte BIOS, 128 bytes of RAM (don't recall the chip) and the video (& sound) was driven by the Intel 8244 chip - the only application the chip was ever used in; (trivia - multiple 8244's could be hooked together with the output of one (slave/master mode) being fed into the next one. Intel shows no reference to the chip or any mention of it in their archives, but I have the story on it from the horse's mouth (and the data sheets :) ) Somewhere, way way back in my archives, I have a copy of a post from someone who claimed to work at Farichild way back when (and knew about the channel F). I should try and dig it up someday to see if he could be tracked down. -Matt Pritchard Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ > -----Original Message----- > From: Francois [SMTP:fauradon@pclink.com] > Sent: Monday, October 12, 1998 9:11 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Fairchild Channel F units > > >#19 is the hardest to find. > > > How about the demo cart #2? Is that a har to find Item? > > Francois > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Visit the desperately in need of update > Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon From MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com Tue Oct 13 10:27:41 1998 From: MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: 16K RAM was 300 bucks in 1977 Message-ID: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5D7E@NTS_EXCH> What's important to note is how much $200, $300, or $2600 in 1977 would buy us today. Factoring in inflation, what would that be equivalent to today? -Matt Pritchard Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ > -----Original Message----- > From: Phil Clayton [SMTP:handyman@sprintmail.com] > Sent: Monday, October 12, 1998 10:41 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: 16K RAM was 300 bucks in 1977 > > > In 1980 I moved into a Commodore Pet with a single IEEE Floppy drive, this > was like heaven, A > nice clear green 9 inch monochrome monitor, no more cassette tapes, 32K > RAM, what more could a > person want.. Well OK, add a Printer another $700.00, and a 300 baud modem > $200.00.. And at > about $2600.00 I had a dream machine.. Phil... > From handyman at sprintmail.com Tue Oct 13 10:39:39 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: 16K RAM was 300 bucks in 1977 References: <199810110702.AAA23603@lists2.u.washington.edu> <36210A81.6AECD38F@goldrush.com> <3620AD77.E1967CB@sprintmail.com> <3622C1CC.A01F5171@cnct.com> <36222315.3FB1B1E4@sprintmail.com> <3622DAE8.509068F9@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3623743B.16E2@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > Phil Clayton wrote: > > > Keybounce was a periodic problem with my first system under Level II. > It came back every time I turned the machine over and dumped out the > month or two worth of cigarette ashes that had accumulated, lasted > maybe a week until I'd dropped enough more inside. > > > > In 1980 I moved into a Commodore Pet with a single IEEE Floppy drive, this was like heaven, A > > nice clear green 9 inch monochrome monitor, no more cassette tapes, 32K RAM, what more could a > > person want.. Well OK, add a Printer another $700.00, and a 300 baud modem $200.00.. And at > > about $2600.00 I had a dream machine.. Phil... > > Checked out a Pet with the original tiny rectangle keyboard before I > went with the TRS-80. Yuck. Turned me off the Pet (and anything else > with a 6502) to this very day (and the Atari 400 keyboard didn't help > much either). The Commodore Pet I purchased in 1980 had a full size keyboard with numeric keypad. This model 2001 was much improved over the original Pet with chicklet keyboard, however I wished I could today find one of the old Pet's with chicklette keyboard, they are very rare these days. The Radio Shack Model One was a great unit, I spent thousands of hours on it befor I went to the Commodore Pet... Phil... From rax at warbaby.com Tue Oct 13 12:39:38 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Wierdness In-Reply-To: References: <3622ABA3.147DAE45@banet.net> Message-ID: >In addition to inventing the GUI, the IBM PC, Sun Workstations and Apples, >as well as several CPUs, he's created a "computer science" organization >and nominated himself for Computer Scientist of the Year! > http://www.acsa.net/1996b2.html > Since he's such an important figure in the history of computers, I think we should invite him to be the keynote speaker at next year's VCF... R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 13 11:25:51 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Wierdness In-Reply-To: References: <3622ABA3.147DAE45@banet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981013112551.00cb8390@pc> At 09:39 AM 10/13/98 -0800, Rax wrote: > >>In addition to inventing the GUI, the IBM PC, Sun Workstations and Apples, >>as well as several CPUs, he's created a "computer science" organization >>and nominated himself for Computer Scientist of the Year! >> http://www.acsa.net/1996b2.html > >Since he's such an important figure in the history of computers, I think we >should invite him to be the keynote speaker at next year's VCF... Might be as funny as St. Silicon. Speaking of, does Sam's immense budget lure him to the VCF? - John From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 13 12:48:51 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Pre - Columbus traveler with classic computer? Message-ID: <199810131629.SAA24113@marina.fth.sbs.de> > < >> My question is why did everything go to Hell between 300BC and 0AD? H > < >> you believe the earth was flat? Where did this idea come from > < > Wasn't that around the time of the burning of the 'library' in > < > Alexandria? > < In fact, did anybody belive this, or is it just a > < urban legend ? > I think it is ascribed to the dark ages, roughly 700-1400AD Europe. :)) > The polical power of the church was strong then and science was nearly > exitinct. Science ? Just define science - AFAIK they had a lot of scientific research - just more in a way a 'bit' different. Their approach ist just alien for us today. And in fact, the church at this time wasn't anti-science they promoted research and payed a whole lot of money to support researchers. But like every big institution they are a bit slow when it comes to new ideas (Ever tried to launch a project based on a complete new idea ?). Even if you advance to the time of Galileo, the force behind the bann have just been some 'fellows' out of sheer envy. As mor as I learn about this 'dark ages' as less dark they apear. Not even very different from before or after (especialy not differentfrom now ). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 13 12:53:13 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Wierdness Message-ID: <199810131634.SAA23094@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>In addition to inventing the GUI, the IBM PC, Sun Workstations and Apples, >>as well as several CPUs, he's created a "computer science" organization >>and nominated himself for Computer Scientist of the Year! >> http://www.acsa.net/1996b2.html > Since he's such an important figure in the history of computers, I think we > should invite him to be the keynote speaker at next year's VCF... > R. Great idea. Saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam - get up, and try to catch him - a speaker of this format might be your #1 for VCF 3.0 (And for shure I will attend it - woooha!). Gruss H. Serious: He might be a real good choice to get a 'new' vision. (And we still have no fun part for the first day :) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 13 11:44:42 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Fairchild Channel F units Message-ID: <199810131644.AA09050@world.std.com> < The Odyssey^2 had an Intel 8048 with a 512 byte BIOS, 128 bytes of RAM < (don't recall the chip) and the video (& sound) was driven by the Intel < chip - the only application the chip was ever used in; (trivia - multipl < 8244's could be hooked together with the output of one (slave/master mod The part I believe is a programmed 8044 RUPI. the 8044 is a 8051 core with a slave interface and a SDLC controller. 8051s could be serially connected via their 9bit serial port (also present on the RUPI). It would be the first place of comparison. Intel DId this with the 8041/2 in the form of printer controller, 8278 (keyboard and display driver), also the GPIB controller (8291) and the well known 8042 AT keybord controller found in AT and X86 systems. Allison From MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com Tue Oct 13 12:30:05 1998 From: MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Fairchild Channel F units Message-ID: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5D81@NTS_EXCH> > < The Odyssey^2 had an Intel 8048 with a 512 byte BIOS, 128 bytes of RAM > < (don't recall the chip) and the video (& sound) was driven by the Intel > < chip - the only application the chip was ever used in; (trivia - multipl > < 8244's could be hooked together with the output of one (slave/master mod > > The part I believe is a programmed 8044 RUPI. the 8044 is a 8051 core > with a slave interface and a SDLC controller. 8051s could be serially > connected via their 9bit serial port (also present on the RUPI). It would > > be the first place of comparison. Intel DId this with the 8041/2 in the > form of printer controller, 8278 (keyboard and display driver), also the > GPIB controller (8291) and the well known 8042 AT keybord controller found > > in AT and X86 systems. > > Allison > > ----------------- Nope. Trust me on this; I've got the docs. and the story of it's development from an Intel person responsible for it. Some parts of the silicon may be similar, but it was designed from the ground up as a video display chip for some sort of consumer electronics. My point was that it wound up being used is just this one application (the Maganvox Odyssey^2/Phillips G7000) and never made available through other channels. I was just pointing out that the 8244 has some capabilites that were not used in that application. What I find so attractive about it (and all the stuff that era), is that it respresents a window in time where the basic foundation blocks for todays stuff (which we take practically for granted) was developed; and the limitations they had to work under (i.e. not practical to have enough memory for a direct bit mapped display, the state of chip fabrication and design, etc) which were unique to that time. I comapre it _alot_ to the automobile industry between 1898 and 1914. Do you guys have any idea how many car compaines sprang up (and faded away)? -Matt Pritchard Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ From marvin at rain.org Tue Oct 13 12:54:59 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer Message-ID: <362393F3.EE4FA24D@rain.org> This was put up on ebay and the auction will close about 7 hours from now (at about 6:00 p.m. pst). Currently there has only been one bid on it at the opening bid of $575. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=34347085 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981013/a6d3482f/eBayISAPI.html From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 13 14:24:00 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer Message-ID: <199810131805.UAA13337@marina.fth.sbs.de> > This was put up on ebay and the auction will close about 7 hours from now > (at about 6:00 p.m. pst). Currently there has only been one bid on it at > the opening bid of $575. > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=34347085 Oh Oh - way expensive - At this price I already start to think about selling some of my PET/CBMs. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From marvin at rain.org Tue Oct 13 13:03:37 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: MITS Altair 8800BT Computer (RARE!!!) Message-ID: <362395F9.78FC8E85@rain.org> Since I have never seen the 8800BT, I'm sure it is rare, at least he says a number of times that this stuff is RARE. Shipping and handling including insurance is only $100 plus the winning bid. However, it does have some good photos of the unit. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=35408024 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981013/d5f73ffa/eBayISAPI.html From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Oct 13 14:09:35 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia Message-ID: <19981013190935.21972.qmail@hotmail.com> Who wouldn't be? With on maps, once the coast is not visible, you're on your own! >It is true that sailors in those days were leery of sailing too far >from coast -- because there was no way to determine longitude until >accurate clocks were developed many years later. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Oct 13 14:15:16 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Software Collecting Message-ID: <19981013191516.6027.qmail@hotmail.com> Ouch! I couldn't do that! I have lots of old software, most of which I have the urge to discard, but hope to put it to good use in a display of some sort. > However when a school dumped all their teaching software for >Commodore and Apple computers, I picked it all up >since I didn't want it going to the dump. This stuff is dated in the >middle 80's. I tend to segregate any original Apple or Commodore Educational software is definitely part of Apple's history.There are lots of crappy games and word processors for Apple and Commodore,which are really quite uninteresting. I tend to pass up most. > >As Sam said, some of the classic games and productivity software are worth >keeping. But what about the rest? > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Oct 13 14:22:52 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Pre - Columbus traveler with classic computer? Message-ID: <19981013192252.18751.qmail@hotmail.com> The chief advantage of any kind of history is, IMHO, to reach the understanding of how similar the past is to the present. This applies to computer history as well. Only people who are familiar with it know that the computers we use today (except uncommon parallel and analog computers) are based on Von Neumann's theories more than 30 years ago. There is no real advancement. There is multiplication of matrices by a scalar value... There is nothing new under the sun, as a very old book says. >As mor as I learn about this 'dark ages' as less dark they >apear. Not even very different from before or after (especialy >not differentfrom now ). > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Oct 13 14:29:19 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Wierdness Message-ID: <19981013192919.3599.qmail@hotmail.com> Reading an article, it's not really a hoax. It's a partnership of crackpots. THOUGHT: "T=C * A * I(Squared)" Yeah, right! Get with the '90s! We don't analyze human thought with equations any more! >>In addition to inventing the GUI, the IBM PC, Sun Workstations and Apples, >>as well as several CPUs, he's created a "computer science" organization >>and nominated himself for Computer Scientist of the Year! >> http://www.acsa.net/1996b2.html >> > >Since he's such an important figure in the history of computers, I think we >should invite him to be the keynote speaker at next year's VCF... > >R. > >-- > > > >Warbaby >The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. >http://www.warbaby.com > >The MonkeyPool >WebSite Content Development >http://www.monkeypool.com > > > Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Oct 13 14:33:06 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: MITS Altair 8800BT Computer (RARE!!!) In-Reply-To: <362395F9.78FC8E85@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote: > Since I have never seen the 8800BT, I'm sure it is rare, at least he says a > number of times that this stuff is RARE. Shipping and handling including > insurance is only $100 plus the winning bid. However, it does have some > good photos of the unit. Well... I don't know if I would consider it THAT rare... (at least not much more so than any other Altair) The 8800B(turnkey) was the last of the Altair line (as such) and appeared not too long prior to the acqusition of MITS by Pertec. The box was then marketed fairly heavily in the 'Pertec Business (computer) System', so its identity was largely lost... In reality, all it is, is an Altair 8800B without the front panel, and with the addition of the 'turnkey' board which provided a boot EPROM and a serial port (or was it two, I forget). An OK box, but no personality (i.e. flashing lights) I've got one in my collection, altho it is missing the 'turnkey' card and I've been too lazy to wirewrap up a replacement... Now, if anyone has one of these cards that is looking for a new home...? Those are fairly good photos tho... B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Oct 13 14:20:59 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) Message-ID: <199810131939.PAA29979@gate.usaor.net> I noticed that ( I looked a 3 Disk II's that my school had, and they all had the grooved disc). I don't have the drive anymore (never was able to get it to work), but All I really remember is the round cable, the red apple (it was unusual), and the Disk II-type black front. If I remember correctly, the case was black, too. I don't remember a data cable (at least built on to it, like the Disk II) though. I can't remember if the round cable was for power, and there was a plug for data, or if the round cable was for power/data. I do remember that the plug was cut off the round cable, though. It was about as round as a AAA battery. I think it had five conductors. -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) > Date: Monday, October 12, 1998 11:00 PM > > A round cord? The Disk ]['s had a flat ribbon cable that connected to the > Disk ][ Controller. They got their power thru this cord. All the Disk > ]['s I have on hand (about 5) have the multi-colored Apple logo. Although > the solid red Apple sounds distinctly familiar on some piece of equipment. > > To be safe, I'll say as far as I know, and as far as the internals of > every Disk ][ I've seen go, they've all had the grooved disk for > positioning the head. > From MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com Tue Oct 13 14:41:04 1998 From: MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer Message-ID: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5D83@NTS_EXCH> Am I the only person who can't read messages made up of tons of HTML junk? -Matt Pritchard Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ > -----Original Message----- > From: Marvin [SMTP:marvin@rain.org] > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 12:55 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer > > This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet > Service. To view the original message content, open the attached > message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to > disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original > character set. << File: message.txt >> From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Oct 13 14:37:44 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards Message-ID: <199810131945.PAA01717@gate.usaor.net> I know this is getting WAY off-topic, but to get it slightly back on-topic.... If you would happen to barf on your , say, C64, would it damage any of the traces on the motherboard or the keyboard? -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Cameron Kaiser > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: dishwasher + mainboards > Date: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 10:05 AM > > ::Last time I vomitted, some of that stomach acid came up exactly the same > ::path as it would have to go down if I drank it. > > Your stomach also does not contain *just* dilute HCl. You're also barfing up > a buffered solution (all the electrolytes in the food you eat), a gunk of > mucus (I can't believe I'm writing this before breakfast) which further > retards acid action, and food which usually is slightly alkaline itself. > Moreover, the pH 3 in your stomach is needed only to activate enzymes like > trypsin and pepsin from their inert state. It's not like your entire stomach > is a bubbling pit of acid; most of the catalytic activity is performed by the > enzymes, or else you would break things like proteins into inorganic or > elemental compounds instead of the amino acids and monosaccharides you need. > > -- > -------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database Programmer > Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 > ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 > -- FORTUNE: You learn from your mistakes. Today will be very educational. ----- From marvin at rain.org Tue Oct 13 14:51:01 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer References: <199810131805.UAA13337@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <3623AF25.AAC70AB6@rain.org> Hans Franke wrote: > > > This was put up on ebay and the auction will close about 7 hours from now > > (at about 6:00 p.m. pst). Currently there has only been one bid on it at > > the opening bid of $575. > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=34347085 > > Oh Oh - way expensive - At this price I already start to > think about selling some of my PET/CBMs. No, No, not expensive enough! The one that sold for $200 at the VCF was in our best guess about 40% - 50% of what *we* thought it might bring on ebay. If we are wrong, let's make it a BIG wrong :)! From paulk at microsoft.com Tue Oct 13 14:53:17 1998 From: paulk at microsoft.com (Paul Kearns) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Software Collecting Message-ID: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B5083B54E3@RED-MSG-45> > There was a huge burst of interest on the Apple2 newsgroups last > year in the original Ultima's, with the first Ultima in the original > packaging with all the pieces fetching up to $300. > Wow. Well, don't I feel smart, then, for picking up a copy at a thrift store for $1.99 a few years ago. It didn't have the coins but was otherwise complete -- and the coins weren't worth $298.01, in my opinion. Buying things over the Internet is a mixed blessing. > Sellam Alternate e-mail: > dastar@siconic.com > Paul Kearns paulk@microsoft.com From marvin at rain.org Tue Oct 13 14:55:22 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer References: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5D83@NTS_EXCH> Message-ID: <3623B02A.C6704828@rain.org> Matt Pritchard wrote: > > Am I the only person who can't read messages made up of tons of HTML junk? Sorry about that one. When I was viewing the ebay listing, I used the "File/Send Page" and didn't realize it put out html. Next time, I'll cut and paste like I usually do. From dcoward at pressstart.com Tue Oct 13 15:02:44 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Fairchild Channel F units Message-ID: <19981013124141.178e47d5.in@mail.pressstart.com> Francois said: >>#19 is the hardest to find. >How about the demo cart #2? Is that a har to find Item? I was speaking about the "regular" cartridges. >And I've managed to collect all of the regular cartridges, except >for #26, in the boxes with instructions. >#19 is the hardest to find. I really don't have any interest in the Demo carts because they are so popular. I do have a prototype of football but that came with some other carts. Phil Clayton said: >.How about the RCA Studio II machine ? > Have you ever seen one of these machines ? I have one. Not because I found it, but because it was given to me. Other than that I have not seen another. >Check this site out: http://newton.physics.arizona.edu/~hart/vgh/main.html I wish I have the time to put up nice pictures like this. Great page. >As far as I know the Fairchild F8 microprocessor was not used in >any other applications, however the RCA 1802 microprocessor..... I did get a chance to do some F8 programming about 1982 at AMF's Electronics Research Lab. I had to modify the code in a rowing machine. They added a clip for the ear lobe that measured your heart rate. I used a 3870 because I could try out new code by inserting a new EPROM on to the processor. I did burn out one of the 3870s and I stuck a white ceramic 1702 on top and made it into a tie clip to remind me. That was the only processor I have every destroyed. And I still have it today. As for the instruction set, the only thing I remember is that the ACC was always trashed on a return from subroutine. I think the processor use it to pull the return address from the stack. What was the question? ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 13 15:21:35 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: dishwasher + mainboards In-Reply-To: <199810131945.PAA01717@gate.usaor.net> from "Jason Willgruber" at Oct 13, 98 03:37:44 pm Message-ID: <199810132021.NAA14186@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981013/e17ce14c/attachment.ksh From MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com Tue Oct 13 15:41:18 1998 From: MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer Message-ID: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5D85@NTS_EXCH> Not to be bitching; but my email program; Microsoft Outlook, can't handle HTML messages; thus I get an attached text object that is very, very hard to decypher - on every single message from Marvin. (and others). Is it too much to ask for people to send plaintext? -Matt Pritchard > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt Pritchard [SMTP:MPritchard@EnsembleStudios.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 2:41 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer > > Am I the only person who can't read messages made up of tons of HTML junk? > > -Matt Pritchard > Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist > MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Marvin [SMTP:marvin@rain.org] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 12:55 PM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer > > > > This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet > > Service. To view the original message content, open the attached > > message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to > > disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original > > character set. << File: message.txt >> From vlincoln at earthlink.net Tue Oct 13 15:48:24 1998 From: vlincoln at earthlink.net (van lincoln) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:21 2005 Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer In-Reply-To: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5D83@NTS_EXCH> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981013154824.12d74976@earthlink.net> I can read it. I use eudora light. van At 02:41 PM 10/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >Am I the only person who can't read messages made up of tons of HTML junk? > >-Matt Pritchard >Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist >MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Marvin [SMTP:marvin@rain.org] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 12:55 PM >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer >> >> This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet >> Service. To view the original message content, open the attached >> message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to >> disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original >> character set. << File: message.txt >> > > From MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com Tue Oct 13 16:34:00 1998 From: MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer Message-ID: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5D86@NTS_EXCH> Right, I know other can. For me I just don't have an option to change. (This is my work e-mail; does eudora interface with exchange server and have a compatible scheduler?) -Matt Pritchard (10 yard penalty; going off topic) > -----Original Message----- > From: van lincoln [SMTP:vlincoln@earthlink.net] > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 10:48 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer > > I can read it. I use eudora light. > van > > > > > > At 02:41 PM 10/13/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Am I the only person who can't read messages made up of tons of HTML > junk? > > > >-Matt Pritchard > >Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist > >MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Marvin [SMTP:marvin@rain.org] > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 12:55 PM > >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >> Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer > >> > >> This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet > >> Service. To view the original message content, open the attached > >> message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to > >> disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original > >> character set. << File: message.txt >> > > > > From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Oct 13 16:45:22 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer Message-ID: If you're running Outlook, do Tools.Options/Mail Format, choose Rich Text from the drop-down list box instead of HTML. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Matt Pritchard [mailto:MPritchard@EnsembleStudios.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 2:34 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: RE: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer Right, I know other can. For me I just don't have an option to change. (This is my work e-mail; does eudora interface with exchange server and have a compatible scheduler?) -Matt Pritchard (10 yard penalty; going off topic) > -----Original Message----- > From: van lincoln [SMTP:vlincoln@earthlink.net] > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 10:48 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer > > I can read it. I use eudora light. > van > > > > > > At 02:41 PM 10/13/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Am I the only person who can't read messages made up of tons of HTML > junk? > > > >-Matt Pritchard > >Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist > >MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Marvin [SMTP:marvin@rain.org] > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 12:55 PM > >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >> Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer > >> > >> This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet > >> Service. To view the original message content, open the attached > >> message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to > >> disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original > >> character set. << File: message.txt >> > > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 13 17:08:49 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: MITS Altair 8800BT Computer (RARE!!!) Message-ID: <199810132208.AA29466@world.std.com> < Since I have never seen the 8800BT, I'm sure it is rare, at least he say < number of times that this stuff is RARE. Shipping and handling includin < insurance is only $100 plus the winning bid. However, it does have som < good photos of the unit. Marvin, Please stop with the HTML, reduce it to text for this forum. MITS 8800BT is the turnkey (front pannel less) version of the 8800B and fairly common. The PERTEC labeled version is scarcer. Allison From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Oct 13 17:26:50 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: MITS Altair 8800BT Computer (RARE!!!) Message-ID: Mine has MITS on the front panel and Pertec on the serial number tag. Pictures at http://www.geocities.com/~compcloset/MITSAltair8800bt.htm Kai -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com [mailto:allisonp@world.std.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 3:09 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: MITS Altair 8800BT Computer (RARE!!!) < Since I have never seen the 8800BT, I'm sure it is rare, at least he say < number of times that this stuff is RARE. Shipping and handling includin < insurance is only $100 plus the winning bid. However, it does have som < good photos of the unit. Marvin, Please stop with the HTML, reduce it to text for this forum. MITS 8800BT is the turnkey (front pannel less) version of the 8800B and fairly common. The PERTEC labeled version is scarcer. Allison From MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com Tue Oct 13 17:26:47 1998 From: MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer Message-ID: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5D87@NTS_EXCH> It doesn't appear to be in this version (Outlook 97). That's what I get for not upgrading to the latest, most bloated, and buggiest beta software. (I'm still running version 3 of my browser too!) -Matt P > -----Original Message----- > From: Kai Kaltenbach [SMTP:kaikal@MICROSOFT.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 4:45 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer > > If you're running Outlook, do Tools.Options/Mail Format, choose Rich Text > from the drop-down list box instead of HTML. > > Kai > > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt Pritchard [mailto:MPritchard@EnsembleStudios.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 2:34 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer > > > Right, I know other can. For me I just don't have an option to change. > (This is my work e-mail; does eudora interface with exchange server and > have > a compatible scheduler?) > > -Matt Pritchard > (10 yard penalty; going off topic) > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: van lincoln [SMTP:vlincoln@earthlink.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 10:48 AM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: RE: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer > > > > I can read it. I use eudora light. > > van > > > > > > > > > > > > At 02:41 PM 10/13/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >Am I the only person who can't read messages made up of tons of HTML > > junk? > > > > > >-Matt Pritchard > > >Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist > > >MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Marvin [SMTP:marvin@rain.org] > > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 12:55 PM > > >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > >> Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer > > >> > > >> This message uses a character set that is not supported by the > Internet > > >> Service. To view the original message content, open the attached > > >> message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment > to > > >> disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original > > >> character set. << File: message.txt >> > > > > > > From aaron at wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 13 17:51:50 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Some "Classiccmp-Friendly" pinouts posted.... Message-ID: After being frustrated trying to view some of the pinouts posted on the web with lynx (everyone using frames/tables/etc), I have created a shell-user-friendly pinout directory on my web server. I've got ~75 of 200 (give or take) up so far, and I'll be working on it for the next couple of weeks. http://www.prinsol.com/pinouts/ If you have the time and the giving spirit overcomes you, please share any that you find missing. Especially those from scarce/rare/unusual machines that might help someone who rescues one with no available documentation. And for God's sake, please let me know if I screwed up on any of these, before someone trusts my addled transcriptions and blows something up! Related, but a little more selfish, could someone give me the pinout for the HP-IB port? Aaron From marvin at rain.org Tue Oct 13 17:52:58 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: HTML References: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5D85@NTS_EXCH> Message-ID: <3623D9CA.5CABBC36@rain.org> Matt Pritchard wrote: > decypher - on every single message from Marvin. (and others). Is it too > much to ask for people to send plaintext? Glad this is not bitching, so I won't take it as flame bait :). This is the first I have heard that *every single message* I am sending is in HTML format. Can someone else confirm this, as I have the Netscape preferences set to not to send HTML. I send a fair amount of messages out including one to a friend of mine who is blind and uses pine; he has no problems reading these messages. From marvin at rain.org Tue Oct 13 17:55:37 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: MITS Altair 8800BT Computer (RARE!!!) References: <199810132208.AA29466@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3623DA69.C7F16722@rain.org> Allison J Parent wrote: > > < Since I have never seen the 8800BT, I'm sure it is rare, at least he say > < number of times that this stuff is RARE. Shipping and handling includin > < insurance is only $100 plus the winning bid. However, it does have som > < good photos of the unit. > > > Please stop with the HTML, reduce it to text for this forum. Misteaks happen. > > MITS 8800BT is the turnkey (front pannel less) version of the 8800B > and fairly common. The PERTEC labeled version is scarcer. My comment about "rare" was said tongue in cheek and was more a comment about how some people are trying to sell stuff on ebay. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 13 12:52:26 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 12, 98 05:37:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 356 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981013/8f671b8f/attachment.ksh From vlincoln at earthlink.net Tue Oct 13 18:49:59 1998 From: vlincoln at earthlink.net (van lincoln) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer In-Reply-To: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5D86@NTS_EXCH> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981013184959.2e07bc68@earthlink.net> My immediate reply is: I have NO idea.! sorry you're stuck. maybe your boss doesn't want you to be on the internet, at least if he does, he could provide modern software. sorry again, van At 04:34 PM 10/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >Right, I know other can. For me I just don't have an option to change. >(This is my work e-mail; does eudora interface with exchange server and have >a compatible scheduler?) > >-Matt Pritchard >(10 yard penalty; going off topic) > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: van lincoln [SMTP:vlincoln@earthlink.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 10:48 AM >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> Subject: RE: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer >> >> I can read it. I use eudora light. >> van >> >> >> >> >> >> At 02:41 PM 10/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >> >Am I the only person who can't read messages made up of tons of HTML >> junk? >> > >> >-Matt Pritchard >> >Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist >> >MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Marvin [SMTP:marvin@rain.org] >> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 12:55 PM >> >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >> Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer >> >> >> >> This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet >> >> Service. To view the original message content, open the attached >> >> message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to >> >> disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original >> >> character set. << File: message.txt >> >> > >> > > > From vlincoln at earthlink.net Tue Oct 13 18:57:49 1998 From: vlincoln at earthlink.net (van lincoln) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: HTML In-Reply-To: <3623D9CA.5CABBC36@rain.org> References: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5D85@NTS_EXCH> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981013185749.2df7aaa6@earthlink.net> No, your not sending HTML code out EVERY msg, just the ones from ebay. They should be grateful that you cared enough to alert the reflector to this entertaining display of High VALUE computers. van IMHO At 03:52 PM 10/13/98 -0700, you wrote: >Matt Pritchard wrote: > >> decypher - on every single message from Marvin. (and others). Is it too >> much to ask for people to send plaintext? > >Glad this is not bitching, so I won't take it as flame bait :). This is the >first I have heard that *every single message* I am sending is in HTML >format. Can someone else confirm this, as I have the Netscape preferences >set to not to send HTML. I send a fair amount of messages out including one >to a friend of mine who is blind and uses pine; he has no problems reading >these messages. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 13 19:21:22 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Some "Classiccmp-Friendly" pinouts posted.... In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Oct 13, 98 03:51:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1557 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981014/e3b2271d/attachment.ksh From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Oct 13 15:33:38 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Wyse PCs (was Re: auction grabs) In-Reply-To: <199810131343.JAA15869@commercial.cgocable.net> References: <3622ED1A.B372E281@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199810140037.UAA07467@smtp.interlog.com> On 13 Oct 98 at 10:07, jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote: > > > Non standard monitors to go with those! :( Boo hiss > > > > No, those went with standard VGA displays. > > I sincerely meant it. At that time around 4 years ago, I happen to > have the oddball 16" mono wyse monitor and the that thing but between > 2 no video card to drive that thing. That monitor can be driven up > to incrediable high resolution better than 1024x768. > Did call Wyse tech support, yuk! Took me a while to find out the > cost to get that card cost too much for that value I think 100US. > > Not long afterwards, machine was gone to a user who needs one with > standard monitor + card and 3 years later, that cursed monitor thrown > out because I couldn't find the card for it. > > Oh, that wyse 286 is pretty stock clone and phoenix bios setup.exe on > a disk for setting up CMOS contents does works. > > Funny, I did saw exact type of wyse 286 around that time after I sold > that dumb 286 thingy with dreadful monitor that had that oddball > card when it was in repairs. > > I know because those 286 circuit boards are not that great quality as > expected of for that expense compared to IBM 50Z box. Even 55SX is > good deal! > > Oh, Those wyse terminals needs upgrade kits to keep them working > reliablibly. Reminds me of those compact mac analog board upgrade > kit. Both you can still can get them around 30 or so from CCS. > I clearly recall seeing at least 10 wyse terminals in repairs at any > given time. Horrific! Gee, they shouldn't have used wyse terminal > features and stuck with standardized DEC VT programming routines > because that is more common than wyse terminals usually. I mean > number of standard and clones for VT terminal series compared to > wyse. > > Jason D. > email: jpero@cgocable.net > Pero, Jason D. > I just picked up a bunch of old cards. Most were MCA ethernet or TR but among the few ISA cards was a 16-bit double card with a 9 pin external plug labelled Wyse monitor. There's 2 badly mounted Wyse E-Proms. Printed on the bottom of the top board was WY-700 Controller Daughterboard. Wyse Technology (c) 1986. The bottom one has WY-700 PC HI RES MOTHER BOARD. Sounds like your beast. If I should find one of these monitors would it work on a clone with just this card ? There was also a 16-bitter labelled Wangtek with a 50-pin connector, and in the bunch of stuff a Syquest 44 drive with 50 pin connector. I take it that this is likely a SCCI card for the Syquest. Did Syquest make their own controllers, or did Wangtek supply a card dedicated to the 44, or was this a generic SCSI card , in other words one that I could use with any SCSI peripheral ? It has a 10 sw. config. block and an E-prom with a pasted-on label which appears to say Colorado Memory System xxxxx (c)1985 Don't know if this fits the 10 year OT but in another find at a thrift was a small box called a Surecom EtherPerfect 500 T. for $1.00. It has one BNC and 8 RJ- ( ? 6wire telephone type) connectors with a switch for normal or cascade. I know virtually zip about LAN but I imagine this is some sort of ethernet controller ? Any pointers ? ciao lary lwalker@interlog.com From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Oct 13 19:42:07 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Wierdness Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981013135404.5a6f8b44@ricochet.net> At 09:23 PM 10/12/98 -0400, you wrote: >Would someone please check out accpc.com/home0.html#About, and enlighten >some of us "historically challenged" individuals as to how much of their >"history" is possibly truth vs. B.S.? They claim they had a windowing product in late '73/early '74 which is supposedly long before the Alto -- But I thought the Alto was earlier than that? I dunno for sure, but it sure sounds like a bunch of BS to me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Oct 13 19:42:07 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Software Collecting Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981013144641.5a672e0a@ricochet.net> At 08:22 PM 10/12/98 -0700, you wrote: >Does anyone on this list collect software, and if so, what is considered >desireable software to collect? Only in the form of Vic-20 carts (which I ended up doing simply because I found the big box of carts I had accumulated in the mid-80's.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Oct 13 19:48:07 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Wierdness Message-ID: <199810140056.UAA13236@gate.usaor.net> Did anyone notice that that "welcome screen" from their GUI looked like something a kit would have drawn in MS Paint? -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Uncle Roger > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Off-Topic Wierdness > Date: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 8:42 PM > > At 09:23 PM 10/12/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Would someone please check out accpc.com/home0.html#About, and enlighten > >some of us "historically challenged" individuals as to how much of their > >"history" is possibly truth vs. B.S.? > > They claim they had a windowing product in late '73/early '74 which is > supposedly long before the Alto -- But I thought the Alto was earlier than > that? > > I dunno for sure, but it sure sounds like a bunch of BS to me. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > From aaron at wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 13 20:23:24 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Some "Classiccmp-Friendly" pinouts posted.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > I think we should agree to do a machine and tell you that. Then you can > make sure that nobody is wasting effort by doing a machine you already > have or that someone else is doing. You don't need 10 copies of the Apple ][ > bus slot, right.. > I can probably do most PERQ connectors (including board edge connectors > and internal cables, Omnibus/Unibus/Qbus (if nobody else is doing those), > Anything in the IBM Techrefs that I have (pc-jr, etc), TRS-80 Model 1, 3, > CoCo, 100, etc. But I guess other people can do most of those. Great! Whatever anyone has the time to add will be fantastic. I'll get burning on the stack that I have left and try to get them up in the next couple of days so we don't cp ourselves too much. > Sure... Let me find it.. Thanks much... From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Oct 13 20:59:49 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 rescue in Florida In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199810140153.SAA04368@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Here is an 11/23 available in Florida, contact Ernie not me! You can tell him the Chuck sent you :-)Ernies phone number is included... --Chuck At 04:21 PM 10/13/98 -0400, Ernie wrote: >Chuck, >Its a PDP11/23. It has the CPU, Power Supply and two RL02 (12"?) Disk >Drives >in one 4' tall rack. A separate dumb terminal such as a VT100 can be >connected to it. >Unlike the PDP-8 which had all those progamming toggle switches and a TTY tape >input, the disk drives and a terminal are the only input devices. It uses a >Fortran Operating System. If you have some real curiosity and a few bucks, I >can look up all the various model numbers comprising the system. We bought it >new in 1983 or so. Used it very seldom up until about 1987. Since then it just >gets relocated. It does have some value in the used scientific computer >marketplace but we don't have the time to find the right customer.We are >located in Florida. Where are you? There is probably 300 pounds of stuff here. > >Ernie Clough > >P.S. I can be reached during the day at 800-327-2212. > From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Oct 13 21:02:43 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: RARE!!! (ebay) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981013180821.4e4f0b08@ricochet.net> At 12:33 PM 10/13/98 -0700, you wrote: >> Since I have never seen the 8800BT, I'm sure it is rare, at least he says a >> number of times that this stuff is RARE. Shipping and handling including >Well... I don't know if I would consider it THAT rare... (at least not Oh come on, doncha know that anything sold on ebay *must* be extremely rare? It's in the terms of service... But in all honesty, in areas other than old computers, one can find some great prices on ebay. (Do a search for auctions I've won recently and you'll see some amazing deals on donald duck stuff. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From wpe101 at banet.net Tue Oct 13 21:05:04 1998 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Wierdness References: <19981013192919.3599.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <362406D0.406F3C4C@banet.net> It pays to ask th' list.... Yikes! Wonder if (or how many) any investors got (or getting) hosed by this?.. Kinda smelled funny, when I hadn't seen any mention in any of the trade pubs that I read, nor Scientific American (TM).. Thanks all for the "straight stuff".. Judging by this, it appears that net fraud, deceit, or as it was put by Max, "crackpots", know no limits.. (no reference to Ebay intended) Thanks for the "enlightenment". Thanks! Will Max Eskin wrote: > > Reading an article, it's not really a hoax. It's a partnership of > crackpots. > > THOUGHT: "T=C * A * I(Squared)" > > Yeah, right! Get with the '90s! We don't analyze human thought with > equations any more! > > >>In addition to inventing the GUI, the IBM PC, Sun Workstations and > Apples, > >>as well as several CPUs, he's created a "computer science" > organization > >>and nominated himself for Computer Scientist of the Year! > >> http://www.acsa.net/1996b2.html > >> > > > >Since he's such an important figure in the history of computers, I > think we > >should invite him to be the keynote speaker at next year's VCF... > > > >R. > > > >-- > > > > > > > >Warbaby > >The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. > >http://www.warbaby.com > > > >The MonkeyPool > >WebSite Content Development > >http://www.monkeypool.com > > > > > > Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From handyman at sprintmail.com Tue Oct 13 09:22:05 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store References: <199810110702.AAA23603@lists2.u.washington.edu> <36210A81.6AECD38F@goldrush.com> <3620AD77.E1967CB@sprintmail.com> <3622C1CC.A01F5171@cnct.com> <36222315.3FB1B1E4@sprintmail.com> <3622DAE8.509068F9@cnct.com> <3623743B.16E2@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> Message-ID: <3623620D.7D2CBFE8@sprintmail.com> Here's a good find for ya.. Today at the Local Salvation Army store i saw this huge IBM 5120 console machine on wheels. Its an Auto Diagnostics station. Must weigh 500lbs easy, mounted on wheels with a built in touch screen monitor.. I opened up the side panel on it and saw a CDROM drive, UPS, Some sort of cartridge drive and hard drive.. It had 30 or 40 cdroms (Auto tech data) and all the manuals for it. Looking at the manuals it appears to be an XT type machine. From Innfogra at aol.com Tue Oct 13 21:32:01 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Wyse PCs (was Re: auction grabs) Message-ID: <3f6d3051.36240d21@aol.com> In a message dated 98-10-13 20:40:07 EDT, you write: << he few ISA cards was a 16-bit double card with a 9 pin external plug labelled Wyse monitor. There's 2 badly mounted Wyse E-Proms. Printed on the bottom of the top board was WY-700 Controller Daughterboard. Wyse Technology (c) 1986. The bottom one has WY-700 PC HI RES MOTHER BOARD. Sounds like your beast. If I should find one of these monitors would it work on a clone with just this card ? T >> Yes if you plug the card in and plug the matching 700 monitor in it will come up. The card emulates EGA & CGA. In its high res mode it is a nice sharp 1200X800 (approx.) monitor. It was supported by many early desktop publishing software packages in it's high res mode. The original card & monitor set predated VGA and was an 8 bit double card. I used one on an XT for several years. SVGA finally killed them off. I think I still have that XT. I know I have two of the monitors in my whse, If I don't sell them beforehand they will be in my Auction in early November. I am retireing from supporting a warehouse so most everthing is selling. This will include lots of older computers, parts, terminals, printers and lots of collectable stuff. Paxton From yowza at yowza.com Tue Oct 13 21:46:17 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store In-Reply-To: <3623620D.7D2CBFE8@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Phil Clayton wrote: > Here's a good find for ya.. Today at the Local Salvation Army store i > saw this huge IBM 5120 console machine on wheels. Its an Auto > Diagnostics station. Must weigh 500lbs easy, mounted on wheels with a > built in touch screen monitor.. I opened up the side panel on it and saw > a CDROM drive, UPS, Some sort of cartridge drive and hard drive.. It had > 30 or 40 cdroms (Auto tech data) and all the manuals for it. Looking at > the manuals it appears to be an XT type machine. Did you grab it? If not, do! You can leave the automotive diagnostics stuff behind, but the 5120 is the last of the original 5100 line, and the machine that followed it was the 5150 (i.e., the PC). If you don't want it, wheel it over to me! -- Doug From aaron at wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 13 20:14:28 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Quick thrift run... Message-ID: A couple of quick snags from the local thrift: Wyse-60 terminal, no keyboard: $4.95 "Programming in Assembly: Macro-11", E. Sowell: $.50 Someone posted a couple of days ago that they got some Wyse keyboards? Anyone have an extra for the model 60 that I just got that they would part with for a few $$$? Aaron From yowza at yowza.com Tue Oct 13 22:07:06 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Did it look something like this? http://www.islandnet.com/~dek/pic/uofa_ibm.jpg -- Doug From Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU Tue Oct 13 23:35:11 1998 From: Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Lisa software available Message-ID: <9763090@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1537 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981014/807da3bb/attachment.bin From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 13 23:57:45 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: MITS Altair 8800BT Computer (RARE!!!) In-Reply-To: <362395F9.78FC8E85@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote: > Since I have never seen the 8800BT, I'm sure it is rare, at least he says a > number of times that this stuff is RARE. Shipping and handling including > insurance is only $100 plus the winning bid. However, it does have some > good photos of the unit. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=35408024 I think he gives way too much credit to MITS' "vision of the future". Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 14 00:01:19 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) In-Reply-To: <199810131939.PAA29979@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > I noticed that ( I looked a 3 Disk II's that my school had, and they all > had the grooved disc). I don't have the drive anymore (never was able to > get it to work), but All I really remember is the round cable, the red > apple (it was unusual), and the Disk II-type black front. If I remember > correctly, the case was black, too. I don't remember a data cable (at AH HA! I was just going to suggest that perhaps you had a Bell & Howell drive and perhaps the internal mechanism on that model was different. I think Kai has some black Disk ]['s handy that he can perhaps check on for us. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Oct 14 00:24:50 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > AH HA! I was just going to suggest that perhaps you had a Bell & Howell > drive and perhaps the internal mechanism on that model was different. I > think Kai has some black Disk ]['s handy that he can perhaps check on for > us. Well... I can venture a comment on that one. I've got a few of the black 'Howling-Bell' Disk ][ drives too, and aside from the paint job on the shell there are no differences. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 14 00:44:38 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's Message-ID: OK, I've got some more questions. It seems I've finally got the PDP-11/73 I'm working on to talk to the floppy drives. BUT, it won't boot my RT-11 RX-50 floppies. I'm using the RQDX3 controller as the floppy controller and the WQESD (ESDI) controller as the boot device. When I tell the system to boot from DUB0 or DUB1 which is the terminalogy that the WQESD controller expects (figuring that out, i.e. reading the manual took longer than I want to admit) with a RX50 attached, it will access the floppy drives, this is best evidenced by my using a cleaning floppy in the drive (made it easy to hear the drive being accessed). When I try using a pair of Teac floppies I've converted to RX33's using information I found on Sunsite I'm not really sure it tries to access them. How do you cable RX33's? I set them to Drive 0 and 1, as the docs said, and then used a Y-splitter for the power with a standard PC floppy cable (do I need one without the twist?). Can you use RX50 floppies to boot a system with RX33 drives? Will RT-11 boot off of a floppy drive at CSR 17760334? I've tried with both the Boot disk from my RX50 distribution set, and a RX50 boot disk that I made using PUTR. I've a sinking feeling that having two disk controllers is confusing RT-11. Is it possible to create a Bootable TK50 with RT-11 that can be used to do the install? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Oct 14 01:00:47 1998 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Wierdness In-Reply-To: <199810140056.UAA13236@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <199810140550.WAA12516@mxu4.u.washington.edu> > Did anyone notice that that "welcome screen" from their GUI looked like > something a kit would have drawn in MS Paint? > -- > -Jason Did anyone also notice that in the screen, the bottom "window" contained what looks like a backslash? If it was originally designed on Unix, shouldn't that have a slash? Maybe it's an attempt at starting (another) urban legend??? Just my thoughts, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From ddameron at earthlink.net Wed Oct 14 01:04:36 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: MMD-2 Message-ID: <199810140604.XAA26132@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Hi Bill and all, At 11:18 PM 10/12/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Hey, I've got a couple of E&L MMD-2's here. These are neat little >8080 educational SBC's. Hex keypad, "function" keypad, 7-segment >LED's, and three sets of 8 LED's for I/O ports 0, 1, 2. Includes >a cassette interface, bus expansion connector, serial interface, >and even an EPROM programmer for 2708/2716's. Most impressive! > >But I didn't get any sort of manuals with them. I've figured >out most of the obvious stuff, but it would be nice to know the >format expected by the "load" function, the meaning of a few >unlabelled switches/jumpers, the meaning of "BRL HI" and "BRL LO", >and so on. > Do you know if it's described in any magazine article? There is a 3 part series about the first MMD in the May, June, July 1976 Radio Electronics. It is an 8080 based system with 24 output bits and LED's, keypad, a solderless breadboard, 256 bytes ram (2x 2111), and 256 bytes rom (1702A). The article has the schematic and "monitor" listing and sample programs. I almost bought one a few years ago, but the price was too much, USD $150. By the way, the kit price back in 1976 was $350, assembled $500. -Dave From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 14 01:23:43 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Chat Thursday (fwd) Message-ID: [This is from another list, but it might be interesting. -- Doug] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 01:25:42 -0400 From: JAY RESPLER To: CALCLIST-L@techunix.technion.ac.il Subject: Chat Thursday Folks- Do you have an old Hermes in your basement? Do you collect ribbon tins or just like to talk about it? Have an old pinwheel calculator? When someone says they own a dusty old PET computer, do you find your interest perk up? This Thursday at 9 p.m.EDT (8 p.m. Central, 6 p.m. Pacific) we will be hosting a live chat with Jay Respler, an antique collector from Freehold, N.J. We hope that you will take this opportunity to visit with other people on the Internet about antique office equipment and even not-so-old office equipment now considered antique (the Commodor 64, for example). To enter, go to the main chat page: http://www.asaypub.com:8080/~chatrooms and click the mouse on the "Yesterday's Office Chat." You will be asked for some information, such as your e-mail address. Be there. You will likely enjoy it. Please feel free to contact me if there are any problems getting to the chat. You will need to have frames "on" in order for the chat to work properly. We also ask that people observe our chat policies of being courteous, waiting for an answer before responding, etc. Thanks. /Neal/ Neal McChristy, editor Repair, Service & Remarketing News P.O. Box 670 Joplin, Mo. 64802 mailto:nmcchristy@asaypub.com Ph. (800) 825-9633, ext. 238 FAX (417) 781-0427 -- Regards, Jay Respler -- JRespler@surfnj.net Sky Views: http://njsurf.com/skyviews/ Satellite Tracker * Early Typewriter Collector Freehold, New Jersey To unsubscribe send the command: unsubscribe CALCLIST-L to LISTSERV@techunix.technion.ac.il The email address of this list is : CALCLIST-L@techunix.technion.ac.il From gram at cnct.com Wed Oct 14 01:32:39 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: RARE!!! (ebay) References: <3.0.16.19981013180821.4e4f0b08@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <36244587.18598207@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 12:33 PM 10/13/98 -0700, you wrote: > >> Since I have never seen the 8800BT, I'm sure it is rare, at least he says a > >> number of times that this stuff is RARE. Shipping and handling including > > >Well... I don't know if I would consider it THAT rare... (at least not > > Oh come on, doncha know that anything sold on ebay *must* be extremely > rare? It's in the terms of service... > > But in all honesty, in areas other than old computers, one can find some > great prices on ebay. (Do a search for auctions I've won recently and > you'll see some amazing deals on donald duck stuff. 8^) Yeah, but most of what's sold there seems to be mickey mouse stuff. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From marvin at rain.org Wed Oct 14 01:39:23 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: RARE!!! (ebay) References: <3.0.16.19981013180821.4e4f0b08@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3624471B.861D0EFD@rain.org> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 12:33 PM 10/13/98 -0700, you wrote: > >> Since I have never seen the 8800BT, I'm sure it is rare, at least he says a > >> number of times that this stuff is RARE. Shipping and handling including > > >Well... I don't know if I would consider it THAT rare... (at least not My "RARE" comment was firmly tongue in cheek! > > But in all honesty, in areas other than old computers, one can find some > great prices on ebay. (Do a search for auctions I've won recently and > you'll see some amazing deals on donald duck stuff. 8^) I noticed there was only one bid on the Pet and it closed at $575. At the VCF 2.0, we had talked about putting one up for sale on ebay (and this one just happened to beat me) to find out what others might offer for such a beast. Looks like we have at least one closing auction to at least give a clue. I wonder if that transaction will be completed :)! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Oct 14 02:08:38 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer In-Reply-To: Matt Pritchard "RE: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer" (Oct 13, 17:26) References: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5D87@NTS_EXCH> Message-ID: <9810140808.ZM934@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 13, 17:26, Matt Pritchard wrote: > Subject: RE: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer > It doesn't appear to be in this version (Outlook 97). I'm sure there is an option for plain text, just not in quite the same place. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kai Kaltenbach [SMTP:kaikal@MICROSOFT.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 4:45 PM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: RE: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer > > > > If you're running Outlook, do Tools.Options/Mail Format, choose Rich Text > > from the drop-down list box instead of HTML. Plain text would be even better -- please don't post RTF, HTML, or encoded stuff to the list (or anywhere by mail, for that matter, unless you *know* the recipient wants it that way for some specific reason. Mail is an plain-text medium). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Oct 14 02:03:41 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer In-Reply-To: van lincoln "RE: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer" (Oct 13, 15:48) References: <3.0.1.16.19981013154824.12d74976@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <9810140803.ZM925@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 13, 15:48, van lincoln wrote: > Subject: RE: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer > I can read it. I use eudora light. > At 02:41 PM 10/13/98 -0500, Matt Pritchard wrote: > >Am I the only person who can't read messages made up of tons of HTML junk? > >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >> Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer > >> > >> This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet > >> Service. To view the original message content, open the attached > >> message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to > >> disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original > >> character set. << File: message.txt >> No, there are plenty of us here who either cannot, or do not wish to, read HTML in mail. Quite often we just silently ignore it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 14 02:42:09 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: MMD-2 In-Reply-To: <199810140604.XAA26132@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, dave dameron wrote: > >But I didn't get any sort of manuals with them. I've figured > >out most of the obvious stuff, but it would be nice to know the > >format expected by the "load" function, the meaning of a few I'll bet $0.25 that it loads Intel hex. > Do you know if it's described in any magazine article? There is a 3 part > series about the first MMD in the May, June, July 1976 Radio Electronics. The MMD-1 is also reviewed in the May 1981 Radio Electronics, but no MMD-2. FWIW, the article also covers the SYM-1, ELF II, COSMAC VIP, and ET-3400. If anybody's looking for a trade, I have a spare ET-3400, and I'm looking fo a COSMAC VIP. -- Doug From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 14 05:36:58 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's Message-ID: <199810141036.AA11750@world.std.com> < admit) with a RX50 attached, it will access the floppy drives, this is b < evidenced by my using a cleaning floppy in the drive (made it easy to he < the drive being accessed). RX50s are rather loud. ;) < When I try using a pair of Teac floppies I've converted to RX33's using < information I found on Sunsite I'm not really sure it tries to access th < How do you cable RX33's? I set them to Drive 0 and 1, as the docs said < and then used a Y-splitter for the power with a standard PC floppy cabl < (do I need one without the twist?). Can you use RX50 floppies to boot < system with RX33 drives? Ok, TEAC FD55GFV (RX33) or TEAC FD55F (RX50). The cable must not have twist and drive select is 1 for the first, I only use one on the system as I have 3 RD52s. IF the drive speed select and density select jumpers are set right it (using RQDX3) will sense what the media is and operate correctly using the DU boot. None or all of this will be true for the WQESD controller, I don't know it. < Will RT-11 boot off of a floppy drive at CSR 17760334? I've tried with < both the Boot disk from my RX50 distribution set, and a RX50 boot disk t < I made using PUTR. I've a sinking feeling that having two disk controll < is confusing RT-11. 17772150 it the default first device and the default bootable. If there is two the second will be at 17760334. For RQDXs the LUN jumper must corospond to how many units. I believe PDP-11 ROM BOOT expects to boot from the default first (*2150) unless the DU.sys driver has been changed for the second address. RT-11 itself will boot/run on anything you have a driver for. Megan would know for sure. I've never found it necessary to have two MSCP disk controllers in a PDP-11 (I was using them in the vax instead!). < Is it possible to create a Bootable TK50 with RT-11 that can be used to < the install? That's oblique. It's possible to make a bootable RX50(or RX33) that is complete enough to be a system! To install from that is trivial as it's really INITing the target drive (assuming its LL formated) and copying everything to it then doing a copy/boot operation. Not much majik unless the version of RT has been really tweeked. Allison From fauradon at pclink.com Wed Oct 14 06:57:50 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Fairchild Channel F units Message-ID: <003501bdf769$e0885620$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> For those interested the is a Faichild Channel F faq at http://www.best.com/~cdyer/faqs/fairv2.htm Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 14 08:31:31 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's Message-ID: <981014093131.232000d7@trailing-edge.com> >I'm using the RQDX3 controller as the floppy controller and the WQESD >(ESDI) controller as the boot device. When I tell the system to boot from >DUB0 or DUB1 which is the terminalogy that the WQESD controller expects >(figuring that out, i.e. reading the manual took longer than I want to >admit) with a RX50 attached, it will access the floppy drives, this is best >evidenced by my using a cleaning floppy in the drive (made it easy to hear >the drive being accessed). >When I try using a pair of Teac floppies I've converted to RX33's using >information I found on Sunsite I'm not really sure it tries to access them. Keep in mind that early RQDX3 revisions don't know how to talk to RX33's - they're limited to RX50 floppies. Seeing as how your system is apparently doing bizarre things with the RX33's, this might be the case. What exactly do your "RX33's" do when you try to access them? What firmware revision is your RQDX3? > Can you use RX50 floppies to boot a > system with RX33 drives? Yes. >Will RT-11 boot off of a floppy drive at CSR 17760334? I've tried with >both the Boot disk from my RX50 distribution set, and a RX50 boot disk that >I made using PUTR. I've a sinking feeling that having two disk controllers >is confusing RT-11. To get RT-11 to deal with two DU controllers, you can either: 1. Do a SYSGEN to create a DU handler that can handle more than one DU controller. With recent enough RT-11's, the same handler copes very nicely with multi-port booting. 2. COPY DU[X].SYS to another name (say, DG[X].SYS), and then SET DG:CSR=nnnnnn and SET DG:VECTOR=nnn, where nnnnnn is the CSR and nnn is an unused vector in your system. When you create a bootable floppy which you want to be bootable on your second controller, you must lay down the DG bootstrap instead of DU, since the DU device points to the wrong controller. The tradeoffs between the above two methods are documented in the RT-11 _System Generation Guide_ and the RT-11 _Device Handlers Manual_. Method #2 above is easily the quickest, and will probably do just fine for your purposes. (Though a RT-11 system with extended-unit multiport DU handler is a beautiful sight!) >Is it possible to create a Bootable TK50 with RT-11 that can be used to do >the install? Look for the file MUB.COM on your distribution: ! COPYRIGHT 1989, 1990 BY DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION ! ALL RIGHTS RESERVED ! ! MUB.COM command file used to build binary kits Again, it will depend on which version of RT-11 you're running whether MUB.COM is MU-bootability is present. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Oct 14 08:32:25 1998 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's References: Message-ID: <3624A7E8.25D185F3@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > OK, I've got some more questions. It seems I've finally got the PDP-11/73 > I'm working on to talk to the floppy drives. BUT, it won't boot my RT-11 > RX-50 floppies. Did you make sure that you wrote the boot program: "COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11FB.SYS DU0:"I assume that you are at least using V5.3 of RT-11, but I don't remember when the RQDX3 became supported. > I'm using the RQDX3 controller as the floppy controller and the WQESD > (ESDI) controller as the boot device. When I tell the system to boot from > DUB0 or DUB1 which is the terminalogy that the WQESD controller expects > (figuring that out, i.e. reading the manual took longer than I want to > admit) with a RX50 attached, it will access the floppy drives, this is best > evidenced by my using a cleaning floppy in the drive (made it easy to hear > the drive being accessed). An RX50 drive is usually noisy enough even without a disk inside when it is being accessed for booting. In this case, the controller is being initialized when the whole PDP-11 was given the initialized signal. > When I try using a pair of Teac floppies I've converted to RX33's using > information I found on Sunsite I'm not really sure it tries to access them. > How do you cable RX33's? I set them to Drive 0 and 1, as the docs said, > and then used a Y-splitter for the power with a standard PC floppy cable > (do I need one without the twist?). Can you use RX50 floppies to boot a > system with RX33 drives? Are you using a BA23 or a BA123? If you don't have any MFM hard drives connected, it will probably not matter. Start to check things out by using an RX50 first. Then switch to the RX33 while the system is running. That way, you know if your controller is working OK, etc. I also suggest that when you switch from RX50 to RX33, you UNLOAD and then LOAD the DU.SYS device driver. I assume at this point that you are running from the ESDI drives. > Will RT-11 boot off of a floppy drive at CSR 17760334? I've tried with > both the Boot disk from my RX50 distribution set, and a RX50 boot disk that > I made using PUTR. I've a sinking feeling that having two disk controllers > is confusing RT-11. Did you make a second MSCP device driver for the ESDI controller. That would be the best way. BUT, to do a hard boot, you can't just re-name the device driver and change the CSR and VECTOR. The boot block also contains the name of the device driver as does several other locations and you will have to either SIPP in the new name or reassemble. At this point, if you don't have a floppy in the RX50, the DEC BOOT ROMS will hard boot an alternate CSR for UNIT 0, PARTITION 0. Later, you can also modify the device driver to boot non-zero partitions if you are interested. V5.6 already has the code, but previous versions of RT-11 are missing 1 instruction in the boot code to be able to do a software boot of non-zero partitions. > Is it possible to create a Bootable TK50 with RT-11 that can be used to do > the install? I believe that is so. I have never done it. It would take longer to boot than is worth while if it was being done all the time. Better to make up a bootable RX50 floppy and copy everything to VM: if you have enough memory. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine Year 2000 Solutions for Currently Running RT-11 Applications (Sources not always required) From handyman at sprintmail.com Tue Oct 13 20:59:24 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store References: Message-ID: <3624057C.8DC5DADA@sprintmail.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > Did it look something like this? > http://www.islandnet.com/~dek/pic/uofa_ibm.jpg > > -- Doug I'm beginning to think I have the wrong model number, and it looks nothing like the picture you have provided.. However I am pretty sure it said IBM 5120 on the side..From my quick inspection yesterday it sure looks like an IBM XT Engine.. It had a CDROM Drive mounted vertically 5-1/4 size, its an older style cdrom with cassette, also a 360KB Floppy drive and some other type of cartridge drive.. This thing is in a huge metal box with a 15 inch touch screen monitor built in, has all sorts of connectors for spark plugs, dist caps, .. Its for diagnostics, even has a built in tool box. Its built for a greasy dirty environment.. Painted military green.. I will go back today and look again.. If its something other than an XT class machine I may just get it, otherwise to me its a huge 500lb Tank... And the local Salvation Army would no doubt want more than its worth just because it looks very expensive, and no doubt was at its time.. The last Kaypro IIx I purchased there I got for 5 dollars because they thought it was a defective Television set. Hey where's the tuner the clerk said.. ! Phil... From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 14 08:48:16 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's Message-ID: <981014094816.232000d7@trailing-edge.com> > At this point, if you don't have >a floppy in the RX50, the DEC BOOT ROMS will hard boot >an alternate CSR for UNIT 0, PARTITION 0. The situation depends greatly on *which* version of the DEC boot ROM's are in use. Some automatically search for an alternate CSR, some allow you to specify it explicitly. The situation is complicated by the fact that for most DEC OS's, the alternate DU CSR is 160334, while for RT-11, SYSGEN will certainly suggest something very different for the default: > 230. What is the CSR (register) address for the second port (172144)? While most DEC DU bootstraps "sniff" through 172144, not all do. Luckily, we don't have to argue about the situation, as Zane told us which bootstrap he is using: >When I tell the system to boot from >DUB0 or DUB1 which is the terminalogy that the WQESD controller expects So any discussion of DEC bootstrap revisions seems to be quite irrelevant :-) For many purposes, I much prefer the WQESD boot scheme. It avoids all the confusion caused by the many, many different DEC DU bootstraps! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 14 08:53:18 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) Message-ID: <981014095318.232000d7@trailing-edge.com> >> I noticed that ( I looked a 3 Disk II's that my school had, and they all >> had the grooved disc). I don't have the drive anymore (never was able to >> get it to work), but All I really remember is the round cable, the red >> apple (it was unusual), and the Disk II-type black front. If I remember >> correctly, the case was black, too. I don't remember a data cable (at >AH HA! I was just going to suggest that perhaps you had a Bell & Howell >drive and perhaps the internal mechanism on that model was different. I >think Kai has some black Disk ]['s handy that he can perhaps check on for >us. The situation is complicated by the large number of "Disk ][ clones" that were produced in the early 80's. From personal experience and advertisements, I'd say there were at least 30 different clones at the time. Most of them used very different-looking, often half-height, 5.25" drives, but many used the same drive mechanics as a real Disk ][ and had case designs almost exactly like a real Disk ]['s. The only real way to tell in this case whether you're dealing with a clone or not is to look for an Apple sticker on the box and/or the Apple legend on the drive's PC board. (While some of the clone makers also stole Apple's PC board layout, I've never seen any that went so far as to steal Apple's copyright and part number!) Tim. From aaron at wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 14 09:20:38 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store In-Reply-To: <3624057C.8DC5DADA@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Phil Clayton wrote: > The last Kaypro IIx I purchased there I got for 5 dollars because they > thought it was a defective Television set. Hey where's the tuner the > clerk said.. ! I got my last KPII for the same price - for the same reason. They also tend to think that those very light Wyse terminals are "cheap little monitors." When I bought the 60 yesterday the guy asked if it went to an old video game system... From TKorotko at aol.com Wed Oct 14 12:36:59 1998 From: TKorotko at aol.com (TKorotko@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: comador 128 Message-ID: <11ddeed4.3624e13b@aol.com> I read that you have some that may use old computers. I have 3 of them 1 128 commador and two 64 with about 200 programs and game and a lot of blank disks. hat to just throw out on garbage if you know some one that could use them, trouble is the would have to pick them up at 101 old lanes mill rd. brick nj 08724 7324581582 as I'm 81 and do not drive too much From heavy at ctesc.net Wed Oct 14 13:11:38 1998 From: heavy at ctesc.net (Jim Weiler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: comador 128 In-Reply-To: <11ddeed4.3624e13b@aol.com> Message-ID: :::Sigh:: Well I know someone will help him out. Maybe someone can help him with an eBay auction? He might could use the $$$. -Jim >I read that you have some that may use old computers. I have 3 of them 1 128 >commador and two 64 with about 200 programs and game and a lot of blank disks. >hat to just throw out on garbage if you know some one that could use them, >trouble is the would have to pick them up at 101 old lanes mill rd. brick nj >08724 7324581582 as I'm 81 and do not drive too much "Recyclable" is the politically-correct term for "Garbage" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ mailto:native-sun@usa.net * Jim Weiler * http://pages.tstar.net/~heavy http://home.talkcity.com/HardDiskDr/YaCCCht/index.html ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From heavy at ctesc.net Wed Oct 14 13:28:08 1998 From: heavy at ctesc.net (Jim Weiler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: Fwd: antique arcade machines Message-ID: This doesn't say if they are antique computer arcade machines, but I thought someone might be interested, here. -Jim Weiler >>From owner-auctions@web0.netis.com Wed Oct 14 14:13:18 1998 >X-Authentication-Warning: web0.netis.com: majordomo set sender to >owner-auctions@maillist.netis.com using -f >From: don_shearer@wda.disney.com >Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:07:17 -0400 >To: >Subject: antique arcade machines >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Sender: owner-auctions@web0.netis.com >Precedence: bulk >Status: U > > We have a small collection (13 items) of antique arcade machines for > disposal. They are in an average condition (some operatable, some > not). Do you know of anyone who may be interested in purchasing these > items? > >. >. >>----------------------------------------------------------------< >> NETIS Auctions On the Web ... Largest and Most Active Auctions < >> and Auctioneers Listing Service on the Internet. < >>----------------------------------------------------------------< >> Join us on the World Wide Web at http://www.auctionweb.com. < >> KEYWORD SEARCH, Worldwide, using http://www.auctionseek.com. < >>----------------------------------------------------------------< >> To subscribe/unsubscribe to/from our auctions mailing list, < >> send mail to majordomo@auctionweb.com with "subscribe < >> auctions" or "unsubscribe auctions" (no quotes) in the body < >>----------------------------------------------------------------< > ( } /|> ___( (@} } |> / |\ ____ (@} } / /| / | \ ____ ( } / - - / | / | \ (oo} / - - / | / | \ ___ ( O-------------------- / | / | \ ____ (______} \ - - - /----| /------|_____\ \ - \____|_@|@@@@\___|______\__/ "Poco Sol" |\_____________________/ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ mailto:YaCCCht@hosts.talkcity.com * Jim Weiler * mailto:heavy@ctesc.net http://pages.tstar.net/~heavy/ http://home.talkcity.com/HardDiskDr/yacccht/index.html ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 14 14:26:58 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store In-Reply-To: <3623620D.7D2CBFE8@sprintmail.com> (message from Phil Clayton on Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:22:05 -0400) References: <199810110702.AAA23603@lists2.u.washington.edu> <36210A81.6AECD38F@goldrush.com> <3620AD77.E1967CB@sprintmail.com> <3622C1CC.A01F5171@cnct.com> <36222315.3FB1B1E4@sprintmail.com> <3622DAE8.509068F9@cnct.com> <3623743B.16E2@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> <3623620D.7D2CBFE8@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: <19981014192658.30955.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Today at the Local Salvation Army store i saw this huge IBM 5120 console > machine on wheels. Its an Auto Diagnostics station. Must weigh 500lbs Does IBM reuse model numbers? I suppose they must, or four-digit numbers would have been exhausted long ago. The IBM 5120 I'm (only slightly) familiar with is a later version of the IBM 5100 portable computer from 1975. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Oct 14 15:08:52 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:22 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store In-Reply-To: <19981014192658.30955.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 14 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > Does IBM reuse model numbers? I suppose they must, or four-digit numbers > would have been exhausted long ago. Well... considering that a couple of machines that I have in my lab at work are branded (on the front panel) "IBM (Personal Computer) 360 ?!? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 14 16:15:36 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store In-Reply-To: <19981014192658.30955.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 14 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > Does IBM reuse model numbers? I suppose they must, or four-digit numbers > would have been exhausted long ago. Are you suggesting that IBM has produced over 10,000 different computer models? I doubt it! > The IBM 5120 I'm (only slightly) familiar with is a later version of the > IBM 5100 portable computer from 1975. Does anybody know all the machines that comprised the 51xx series? The few I know are: 5100, IBM Portable 5110, similar with optional (?) 8" flops 5120, bigger screen, built-in 8" flops 5140, Convertible 5150, PC 5155, Portable PC 5160, PC/XT 5180, PC/AT Was there a 5130? -- Doug From william at ans.net Wed Oct 14 16:17:12 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store In-Reply-To: <19981014192658.30955.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Does IBM reuse model numbers? I suppose they must, or four-digit numbers > would have been exhausted long ago. Yes, considering they have been using them since the 1930s. I do think they wait a long time before reusing the numbers, as there is an awful lot of old IBM things still in use. William Donzelli william@ans.net From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Oct 14 16:17:39 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Franklin Ace 2100 Message-ID: <19981014211740.17926.qmail@hotmail.com> Does anyone know about this thing? It's a black machine, looks like a PC clone. I gather this is an Apple ][-compatible? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From william at ans.net Wed Oct 14 16:27:36 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Are you suggesting that IBM has produced over 10,000 different computer > models? I doubt it! Maybe not 10,000, but certainly lots. Don't forget that the numbers cover not only computers, but accessories, ATMs, cash registers, lab equipment, clocks, racks, typewriters, and other stuff. William Donzelli william@ans.net From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 14 16:45:12 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store In-Reply-To: (message from Doug Yowza on Wed, 14 Oct 1998 16:15:36 -0500 (CDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981014214512.31787.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Does IBM reuse model numbers? I suppose they must, or four-digit numbers > would have been exhausted long ago. Doug replied: > Are you suggesting that IBM has produced over 10,000 different computer > models? I doubt it! The IBM numbers are 'Type' numbers. For instance, for the Type 729 tape drives, there are Model I, II, III, etc. For the Type 360 computer, there were initially Models 30, 40, etc. The IBM AT was Type 5170, but had many Models, such as the famous 339. However, for computers, each box generally had its own Type number. When you talk about an IBM Type 7090 Data Processing System, that's actually just the type of the main processor. The memory, the I/O channels, even the control console each have their own type number, from the same name space. Even a 360/30 has a Type number for its CPU, although I don't recall offhand what it was. They've definitely had more than 10,000 Types, and probably more than 100,000 Models. But not every Type is a "computer". From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 14 16:54:57 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Franklin Ace 2100 In-Reply-To: <19981014211740.17926.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Does anyone know about this thing? It's a black machine, looks like > a PC clone. I gather this is an Apple ][-compatible? It is an Apple //e clone. That's about all I know. Probably has 128K of RAM. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Oct 14 17:01:14 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Franklin Ace 2100 In-Reply-To: <19981014211740.17926.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Oct 14, 98 02:17:39 pm Message-ID: <199810142201.PAA12538@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 538 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981014/03ac9c43/attachment.ksh From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Oct 14 12:55:22 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Wyse PCs (was Re: auction grabs) In-Reply-To: <3f6d3051.36240d21@aol.com> Message-ID: <199810142159.RAA07734@smtp.interlog.com> On 13 Oct 98 at 22:32, Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-10-13 20:40:07 EDT, you write: > > << he few ISA cards was a 16-bit double card with a 9 pin external plug > labelled > Wyse monitor. There's 2 badly mounted Wyse E-Proms. Printed on the bottom of > the top board was WY-700 Controller Daughterboard. Wyse Technology (c) 1986. > The bottom one has WY-700 PC HI RES MOTHER BOARD. Sounds like your beast. > If I should find one of these monitors would it work on a clone with just > this card ? > T >> > > Yes if you plug the card in and plug the matching 700 monitor in it will come > up. The card emulates EGA & CGA. In its high res mode it is a nice sharp > 1200X800 (approx.) monitor. It was supported by many early desktop publishing > software packages in it's high res mode. The original card & monitor set > predated VGA and was an 8 bit double card. I used one on an XT for several > years. SVGA finally killed them off. > > I think I still have that XT. I know I have two of the monitors in my whse, If > I don't sell them beforehand they will be in my Auction in early November. I > am retireing from supporting a warehouse so most everthing is selling. This > will include lots of older computers, parts, terminals, printers and lots of > collectable stuff. > > Paxton > Thanks for the info. Unfortunately IIRC you are on the west coast (aargh, as usual) and I am in Toronto and shipping charges would bankrupt me more than I am now. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Oct 14 17:09:03 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) Message-ID: <199810142219.SAA24234@gate.usaor.net> I can't check for a model number, because I no longer have the drive. I do remember that it was all black, had a Disk II - type face (with the non-wheel head motor), and that it said "Apple" and had a red apple (not multicolored) on the front. ---------- > From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) > Date: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 9:53 AM > > The situation is complicated by the large number of "Disk ][ clones" > that were produced in the early 80's. From personal experience and > advertisements, I'd say there were at least 30 different clones at the > time. Most of them used very different-looking, often half-height, 5.25" > drives, but many used the same drive mechanics as a real Disk ][ and > had case designs almost exactly like a real Disk ]['s. The only real > way to tell in this case whether you're dealing with a clone or not > is to look for an Apple sticker on the box and/or the Apple legend on > the drive's PC board. (While some of the clone makers also stole > Apple's PC board layout, I've never seen any that went so far as to > steal Apple's copyright and part number!) > > Tim. From k7ox at pipeline.com Wed Oct 14 17:29:06 1998 From: k7ox at pipeline.com (Gary D Elliott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19981013153431.22ffae8e@pop.pipeline.com> Greetings I was given a Tandy 1000RL, I need a old Tandy keyboard as nothing else will work with this machine. Anybody have one laying around // Gary From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 14 17:29:48 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store Message-ID: <199810142229.AA29060@world.std.com> < > Are you suggesting that IBM has produced over 10,000 different compute < > models? I doubt it! < < Maybe not 10,000, but certainly lots. Don't forget that the numbers cove < not only computers, but accessories, ATMs, cash registers, lab equipment < clocks, racks, typewriters, and other stuff. Either ways it's not an issue ans the numbering system is more than 4 digits. For example my 8550-031 (ps/2m50z) being differnt from the 8550-021 (PS/2m50). How else would they differentiate models in a family of products. Allison From mbg at world.std.com Wed Oct 14 17:55:51 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's Message-ID: <199810142255.AA19830@world.std.com> >When I try using a pair of Teac floppies I've converted to RX33's using >information I found on Sunsite I'm not really sure it tries to access >them. How do you cable RX33's? I set them to Drive 0 and 1, as the docs >said, and then used a Y-splitter for the power with a standard PC floppy >cable (do I need one without the twist?). Can you use RX50 floppies to >boot a system with RX33 drives? Yes. In fact, the RT-11 distribution on 5.25" floppies is RX50 compatible, which also works on RX33. If the disk is formatted by an RX33, then it will only work on an RX33, though (at least when using the RT-11 FORMAT command). >Will RT-11 boot off of a floppy drive at CSR 17760334? I've tried with >both the Boot disk from my RX50 distribution set, and a RX50 boot disk >that I made using PUTR. I've a sinking feeling that having two disk >controllers is confusing RT-11. Since you're using the distribution kit, the answer is no. The address which the distribution handler (a single-port handler) expects is the primary address, 17772150. Even if you were able to get the boot code to read the boot block into memory, the first time the driver gets control, it will try the default primary address and fail. >Is it possible to create a Bootable TK50 with RT-11 that can be used to >do the install? Even when I worked in the RT development group, I avoided the attempt at making bootable magtapes... But the answer is, yes... you could make a bootable magtape (TK50). But you need to boot an RT system to do so, so we're back to a chicken and egg problem... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Wed Oct 14 18:02:03 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's Message-ID: <199810142302.AA24537@world.std.com> allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Wrote: >17772150 it the default first device and the default bootable. If there >is two the second will be at 17760334. For RQDXs the LUN jumper must >corospond to how many units. Right... but default secondary device for a DU handler is 17772144. (The reason for this is because back when the driver was developed, someone decided that since the vector was programmable, and the default was at 154, and nothing was at 150, that subsequent vectors would decrease by 4. This was then extended to the CSR... It wasn't until later that we found that the default secondary CSR was to be at 17760334. It never got changed. I think it is still that way for the to-be-released V5.7) >I believe PDP-11 ROM BOOT expects to boot from the default first (*2150) >unless the DU.sys driver has been changed for the second address. RT-11 >itself will boot/run on anything you have a driver for. Megan would >know for sure. I've never found it necessary to have two MSCP disk >controllers in a PDP-11 (I was using them in the vax instead!). So long as the address/vector match what is set in the device handler, it should boot. (I have a system at home with three, and at times four, MSCP adapters for various disk types -- MSCP, SCSI, ESDI, DSSI) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From fauradon at pclink.com Wed Oct 14 19:46:48 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Franklin Ace 2100 Message-ID: <003f01bdf7d5$4b769800$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> They are Apple IIe and IIc compatibles with 128K RAM,80 Column video, Double High Resolution Display (560 x 192) of the IIc. They use the 65SC02. The diskettes drives are 40 track and 35 track compatible The ACE 2000 has no disk drive, the 2100 has one and the 2200 has two (my 2100 has two, must be an upgrade) I think my 2100 also has the etended memory card that brings it up to 384K. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon > >Does anyone know about this thing? It's a black machine, looks like >a PC clone. I gather this is an Apple ][-compatible? > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From backofene at hotmail.com Wed Oct 14 19:56:21 1998 From: backofene at hotmail.com (Eileen Backofen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard Message-ID: <19981015005621.26317.qmail@hotmail.com> We've been throwing out all our Tandy stuff at school. I've seen TLs, TXs, SXs and even an HL. But I don't remember an RL. Will the others work? Eileen > >Greetings > >I was given a Tandy 1000RL, I need a old Tandy keyboard as nothing else will >work with this machine. Anybody have one laying around // > > >Gary > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mbg at world.std.com Wed Oct 14 20:14:12 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's References: Message-ID: <199810150114.AA01309@world.std.com> >Did you make sure that you wrote the boot program: >"COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11FB.SYS DU0:"I assume that you are at least >using V5.3 of RT-11, but I don't remember >when the RQDX3 became supported. DU device became available with RT V5.0. It supported RQDX1. I think that RQDX2 was supported with V5.1 (though it may have been latently supported with V5.0). I believe that V5.2 was the version which supported RQDX3. And the DU driver was most stable by V5.3. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Wed Oct 14 20:18:46 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's Message-ID: <199810150118.AA04129@world.std.com> >To get RT-11 to deal with two DU controllers, you can either: > >2. COPY DU[X].SYS to another name (say, DG[X].SYS), and then SET > DG:CSR=nnnnnn and SET DG:VECTOR=nnn, where nnnnnn is the CSR and nnn > is an unused vector in your system. When you create a bootable > floppy which you want to be bootable on your second controller, you > must lay down the DG bootstrap instead of DU, since the DU device > points to the wrong controller. The problem with this technique is that the handler name is built into the driver, which is used by XM to locate the extended memory region used to store data (and other code), and the two handlers would still have the same name. You would need to SIPP the new handler and search for all references to the name 'DU' (search for ;rDU) to 'DG' (;rDG). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Oct 14 20:47:30 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Franklin Ace 2100 Message-ID: <19981015014730.28129.qmail@hotmail.com> Is there any way in which they are better than Apple //e? I know the Laser 128 has some specific improvements. >They are Apple IIe and IIc compatibles with 128K RAM,80 Column video, Double >High Resolution Display (560 x 192) of the IIc. >They use the 65SC02. >The diskettes drives are 40 track and 35 track compatible >The ACE 2000 has no disk drive, the 2100 has one and the 2200 has two (my >2100 has two, must be an upgrade) >I think my 2100 also has the etended memory card that brings it up to 384K. > >Francois >------------------------------------------------------------- >Visit the desperately in need of update >Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon > > >> >>Does anyone know about this thing? It's a black machine, looks like >>a PC clone. I gather this is an Apple ][-compatible? >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Oct 14 20:49:46 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard Message-ID: <19981015014946.6194.qmail@hotmail.com> Are these PC clones? I have seen a tandy (1000, I think) that had a microphone port. Why was this? I have also seen a tandy which was sort of like a C64 except it had a 3.5" disk drive. I'm _certain_ it was a tandy. > >We've been throwing out all our Tandy stuff at school. I've seen TLs, >TXs, SXs and even an HL. But I don't remember an RL. Will the others >work? > >Eileen > > > >> >>Greetings >> >>I was given a Tandy 1000RL, I need a old Tandy keyboard as nothing else >will >>work with this machine. Anybody have one laying around // >> >> >>Gary >> >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From william at ans.net Wed Oct 14 20:57:14 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store In-Reply-To: <19981014214512.31787.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > However, for computers, each box generally had its own Type number. When > you talk about an IBM Type 7090 Data Processing System, that's actually just > the type of the main processor. The memory, the I/O channels, even the > control console each have their own type number, from the same name space. > Even a 360/30 has a Type number for its CPU, although I don't recall offhand > what it was. 2030. In the "good ole days", processors were 20xx, disks were 23xx, tapes were 24xx, conrollers were 28xx, and more that I can not think of offhand. They used this for thier mainframe line until the ES/9000s, or thereabouts. The IBM marketing people obviously have all of the say in coming up with the "system" and "series" numbers. Those number may or may not have anything to do with the model numbers. A prime example is the RS/6000s - the first ones were 7011s, 7012s, and 7015s - not a 6000 in sight. Yet other systems embed their number in the model designation - all System/36s have 36 for thier 2nd and 3rd numerals. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dcoward at pressstart.com Wed Oct 14 15:39:35 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: HTML Message-ID: <19981014184600.1cd6d96d.in@mail.pressstart.com> Matt Pritchard said: Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 14:41:04 -0500 From: Matt Pritchard To: "'classiccmp@u.washington.edu'" Subject: RE: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Am I the only person who can't read messages made up of tons of HTML junk? -Matt Pritchard Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ > -----Original Message----- > From: Marvin [SMTP:marvin@rain.org] > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 12:55 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Commodore "PET 2001-8" Vintage Computer > > This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet > Service. To view the original message content, open the attached > message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to > disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original > Yes, it turned the rest of the Digest into a solid block of text. I just gave up on trying to read it. ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From altair8800 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 14 21:27:26 1998 From: altair8800 at hotmail.com (Bob Wood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: MITS Altair 8800BT Computer (RARE!!!) Message-ID: <19981015022727.16469.qmail@hotmail.com> The same seller has listed Altair toggle switches with a $10 minimum bid. Jim, do those appear to be exactly like the switches you sell? Or do they differ from your's? Here is the link to the auction with the photo... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=35724070 Bob Wood ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Oct 14 21:20:23 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard Message-ID: <199810150251.WAA24240@gate.usaor.net> If the plug on the RL has a DIN plug with (8?) pins (one in center), then the keyboard from the SX or TX will work. If it's a standard 5-pin DIN, then just use an XT keyboard. -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Eileen Backofen > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Tandy Keyboard > Date: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 8:56 PM > > We've been throwing out all our Tandy stuff at school. I've seen TLs, > TXs, SXs and even an HL. But I don't remember an RL. Will the others > work? > > Eileen > > > > > > >Greetings > > > >I was given a Tandy 1000RL, I need a old Tandy keyboard as nothing else > will > >work with this machine. Anybody have one laying around // > > > > > >Gary > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Oct 14 21:42:45 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard Message-ID: <199810150251.WAA24265@gate.usaor.net> Yep. They're PC/XT clones. The Tandy 1000TL's had the microphone port. They had a built-in "Tandy Sound Chip". It put out better sound (in Tandy 1000-supported games) that the standard PC-speaker setting. Haven't gotten the mic to work yet, though. I wish I could find a driver that would run the chip through Windows... I have seen the type that looks like a C64 (can't remember if it was a 1000 or not. They did make the CoCo series, but they didn't have the disk drives. If anyone has one of the 1000's (?) with the built-in drive (and keyboard), and you want to sell it, send me an email, because I'm probably interested. -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Max Eskin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Tandy Keyboard > Date: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 9:49 PM > > Are these PC clones? I have seen a tandy (1000, I think) that had a > microphone port. Why was this? I have also seen a tandy which was > sort of like a C64 except it had a 3.5" disk drive. I'm _certain_ it > was a tandy. > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Oct 14 21:56:08 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Switches (was Re: MITS Altair 8800BT Computer) In-Reply-To: <19981015022727.16469.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981014195608.035d88f0@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:27 PM 10/14/98 PDT, you wrote: >The same seller has listed Altair toggle switches >with a $10 minimum bid. Jim, do those appear to be exactly >like the switches you sell? Or do they differ from >your's? Here is the link to the auction with the >photo... > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=35724070 Not a real good picture... B^} If I make out the lettering on the shell correctly, what he is offering is an older version of the switches which could be 'original' MITS stock. Now, if that makes them worth more? Difficult to make out the switch body color... The switches I offer are new production parts, from the original vendor, and are identical to the switches produced for MITS with the exception of the plastic body color, and the fact that the company has changed names (multiple times), so the name stamped in the switch frame is different from the MITS production switches. When the switches were made for MITS, someone selected orange for the body color and that color is no longer available as a 'standard' option from the manufacturer. Last time I inquired, they indicated that it might be possible to get that body color again, but with an increased cost and much longer lead time. So... I suppose that the short(er) answer to the question is, yes they are the same switch, although the ones being offered on eBay appear to be older. Are they "exactly identical", no when you consider body color (possibly) and the name stamped in the switch frame. Ok... that was not very short. B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Oct 14 22:15:44 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: A Commodore 'pre-computer' Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981014201544.00936a10@agora.rdrop.com> Ok, so it may not fit the 'computer' part of the charter, but it sure fits the 'more than 10 years old' part... (and its borderline cute) Just picked up a Commodore desk adding machine. Its clean, fully functional (all 3 functions... ummm... 3? maybe 2.5 since 'multiply' is manually assisted), brightly colored Commodore tag and icon on the front. I'll be adding a picture on my web pages of it along with my next set of updates, and (hopefully) my pictures from VCF II. (RSN) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 14 22:22:05 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: A Commodore 'pre-computer' Message-ID: <981014232205.23a000ba@trailing-edge.com> >Ok, so it may not fit the 'computer' part of the charter, but it sure fits >the 'more than 10 years old' part... (and its borderline cute) >Just picked up a Commodore desk adding machine. I certainly think that any electronic computing machine is appropriate here. Three of my prized items in my collection: HP9100B desktop calculator HP9835 desktop calculator/BASIC computer Monroe/Litton 1101B desktop/deskside programmable calculator. Tim. From handyman at sprintmail.com Wed Oct 14 12:34:59 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Video Brain Computer References: <003501bdf769$e0885620$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: <3624E0C3.11E57B39@sprintmail.com> I have in my collection a computer called the "Video Brain" It was intended for the home computer crowd. It has 2 joysticks, and several cartridges, including some financial cartridges.. A full size keyboard (Chicklet type keys like the Tandy CoCo II).. Black case and keys, external power supply.. I have all the owners manuals and documentation for the carts. Its very clean and looks new, But unfortuntaly its a dead machine.. Does anyone know anything about this computer.? I found nothing about it after searching the Web.. Phil... From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 15 00:37:06 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <199810142255.AA19830@world.std.com> Message-ID: Well, I tried running SYSGENs with the RQDX3 as the first and second MSCP controller. No dice on either. I tried with both the RX50 and RX33 drives. I also just tried with a Dilog DQ606 and the floppy drives that go with it set as the first controller in the SYSGEN with the same result. WQESD 172150 RQDX3 or DQ606 160334 I guess tomorrow I'll try to come up with an "Inventive" solution to get RT-11 on a Hard Drive. I don't mind a temporary reconfig if it gets the software loaded. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 14 20:28:56 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <199810142255.AA19830@world.std.com> Message-ID: >Since you're using the distribution kit, the answer is no. The address >which the distribution handler (a single-port handler) expects is the >primary address, 17772150. Even if you were able to get the boot code >to read the boot block into memory, the first time the driver gets >control, it will try the default primary address and fail. Makes sense. I'm now attempting a SYSGEN on another system in the hopes that I can get this to work. >Even when I worked in the RT development group, I avoided the attempt >at making bootable magtapes... But the answer is, yes... you could >make a bootable magtape (TK50). But you need to boot an RT system to >do so, so we're back to a chicken and egg problem... I'd asked because I do have a working system, but want to move it to this other machine, and thought it might be easier, but it sounds as if despite the fact I could probably get it onto a Hard Drive, the disk wouldn't boot. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 14 20:28:32 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <981014093131.232000d7@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >What exactly do your "RX33's" do when you try to access them? They flicker briefly just prior to the machine complaining it can't boot. I'm not sure I had them connected properly. I'll try the method Allison suggested in a little bit. >What firmware revision is your RQDX3? Well, the stickers are pretty hard to read, but if I'm looking at the right two, they both say LMB617 or LM8617 then one says 21725 or 217E5 I'm pretty sure the second says 216E5 If these aren't ROMs that support RX33's which ones should I be looking for, there is a chance one of my other RQDX3's that I've got in my spares will work. >To get RT-11 to deal with two DU controllers, you can either: > >1. Do a SYSGEN to create a DU handler that can handle more than one > DU controller. With recent enough RT-11's, the same handler > copes very nicely with multi-port booting. OK, I'm crazy enough to be attempting my first SYSGEN at the moment thankfully I've got a SMS-1000 (11/73) running the RT-11 already. My goal is to get the 11/73 I've been working on in the BA-123 to boot RT-11 and RSX-11M both, that way I only need one set up. BUT in order to do that I've got to get RT-11 installed. BTW the RT-11 RX-50 distro kit I've got is for V5.3 >Look for the file MUB.COM on your distribution: I checked, and don't have it. Guess that answers that question Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Oct 14 23:40:38 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: A Commodore 'pre-computer' In-Reply-To: <981014232205.23a000ba@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199810150844.EAA08584@smtp.interlog.com> On 14 Oct 98 at 23:22, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Ok, so it may not fit the 'computer' part of the charter, but it sure fits > >the 'more than 10 years old' part... (and its borderline cute) > >Just picked up a Commodore desk adding machine. > > I certainly think that any electronic computing machine is appropriate > here. > > Three of my prized items in my collection: > > HP9100B desktop calculator > HP9835 desktop calculator/BASIC computer > Monroe/Litton 1101B desktop/deskside programmable calculator. > > Tim. > To get a little further off-topic, one of the most-prized items in my collection is a Monroe LX160 mechanical calc. Definitely qualifies re age circa 1939-40 and could be thought of as digital. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Oct 14 23:40:39 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard In-Reply-To: <19981015014946.6194.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199810150844.EAA08581@smtp.interlog.com> On 14 Oct 98 at 18:49, Max Eskin wrote: > Are these PC clones? I have seen a tandy (1000, I think) that had a > microphone port. Why was this? I have also seen a tandy which was > sort of like a C64 except it had a 3.5" disk drive. I'm _certain_ it > was a tandy. > They did run Dos and supposedly Gates wrote the OS for them. They were very similiar to the PC jr. and had a better resolution on the Tandy monitors than CGA. Can't remember the mike port but I seem to remember they did have a superior sound chip. TRS had a proprietory GUI (of sorts) called Deskmate that came with the sytem. The C64 type was likely a CoCo of which Murch is the resident expert. I believe he moderates the CoCo m-l .The CoCo 2 and 3 have an OS available called OS-9 which is IIRC quite impressive. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 15 05:07:45 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: WANG Message-ID: <199810150848.KAA23623@marina.fth.sbs.de> Now a question for the real wiered stuff: Does anybody know a Wang-71 ? I just know the name - I'm right now on a trace of a specific Russian computer, and they told me that this machine is a Wang-71 clone, but I can't find any information about this machine. No, I have no pictures of the Russian machine and no further data. The clone is build 1975, so the original design might me a bit earlyer. Gruss H. P.S.: has anyone a list of PDP-clones ? I want to classify some finds. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Oct 15 05:53:44 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard References: <199810150844.EAA08581@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3625D437.6DA87AD6@bigfoot.com> Lawrence Walker wrote: > On 14 Oct 98 at 18:49, Max Eskin wrote: > > > Are these PC clones? I have seen a tandy (1000, I think) that had a > > microphone port. Why was this? I have also seen a tandy which was > > sort of like a C64 except it had a 3.5" disk drive. I'm _certain_ it > > was a tandy. > > > They did run Dos and supposedly Gates wrote the OS for them. They were > very similiar to the PC jr. and had a better resolution on the Tandy monitors > than CGA. Can't remember the mike port but I seem to remember they did have > a superior sound chip. TRS had a proprietory GUI (of sorts) called Deskmate > that came with the sytem. The C64 type was likely a CoCo of which Murch is > the resident expert. I believe he moderates the CoCo m-l .The CoCo 2 and 3 have > an OS available called OS-9 which is IIRC quite impressive. The HX and EX were the 1000 versions that were low profile and were DOS, not OS/9 machines. The HX had the 3.5" 720k floppy drive(s) in front and the EX had a 5.25" 360k drive on the right side. Both used a proprietary card slot known as a Plus expansion and the cards (serial, hard disk and memory) are getting very hard to come by anymore. Tandy has all the specs on the 1000 models on text files at http://support.tandy.com/ Jason is correct on the keyboard plugs too. Later models went to a common keyboard, older ones used a Tandy specific with a Tandy 1000 sticker on the back. The 2000 used a similar looking keyboard but wired differently and had a 2000 label on the back of it. THROWING the 1000's away?? You ought to b4e ashamed. From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Oct 15 06:41:40 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Franklin Ace 2100 Message-ID: <000d01bdf830$c6dc7fe0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> >Is there any way in which they are better than Apple //e? I know the >Laser 128 has some specific improvements. I haven't tasted them yet ;) I don't really know yet. I would believe that they added some features but how would you define "better", more reliable, faster, bigger software library? All I can do is look at the specs and compare the two. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Thu Oct 15 06:58:39 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: PROM Burner Message-ID: <003101bdf833$26ef9d20$d73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I have found an ancient PROM burner, a Data I/O System 19, with a Unipac module fitted. Test stickers on it are dated 1980. It came with an "Operators Synopsis" with which I am totally out of my depth and a wall chart dated 1985 with details of PROMs of the day and which Unipak revision applies to which. ?????????? I had hoped to be able to use it to back up older ROMs which my circa 1995 EPROM programmer can't handle. Is it usable for this? It has a serial type connector but no software (it predates the PC). There is an LED and a hexadecimal keyboard. It looks like it was meant to be used manually !! Typing stuff in character by character. There's nothing on Data I/O's website about this and they haven't replied to my email as yet. Can anyone offer advice? Thanks Hans From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 15 07:40:35 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: PROM Burner Message-ID: <199810151240.AA26037@world.std.com> < I had hoped to be able to use it to back up older ROMs which my circa 19 < EPROM programmer can't handle. Is it usable for this? It is the programmer of the era and with the right adaptors will program most anything including some faily current devices. The data io model 22 was faily close but newer and info on that will help with the serial port operation. < It has a serial type connector but no software (it predates the PC). The < is an LED and a hexadecimal keyboard. It looks like it was meant to be u < manually !! Typing stuff in character by character. The serial port acan be used that way but with the right terminal program and intel hex or Moto hex files you could up/download prom data. Allison From kyrrin at jps.net Thu Oct 15 09:11:01 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: PROM Burner In-Reply-To: <003101bdf833$26ef9d20$d73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981015071101.0094c6a0@mail.jps.net> At 21:58 15-10-98 +1000, you wrote: >I have found an ancient PROM burner, a Data I/O System 19, with a Unipac >module fitted. Test stickers on it are dated 1980. Wow... that does go back a ways! The System 19 was the predecessor to what some consider Data I/O's most successful venture outside of the UniSite: The 29A/29B series. >I had hoped to be able to use it to back up older ROMs which my circa 1995 >EPROM programmer can't handle. Is it usable for this? Depends on what software version came with it. Data I/O discontinued support for that unit about 7-8 years ago, so updates (even if you could afford them -- DIO has a reputation for being very pricey) are no longer available outside of other System 19 owners (I'm not one -- I got lucky some years ago and grabbed a UniSite). >It has a serial type connector but no software (it predates the PC). There >is an LED and a hexadecimal keyboard. It looks like it was meant to be used >manually !! Typing stuff in character by character. Yes and no. You can use it to read PROMs, and then (with the right commands and hookup) transfer the data to an attached computer. That connector is standard RS232, DCE if I recall correctly. >There's nothing on Data I/O's website about this and they haven't replied to >my email as yet. That's no surprise. They can also be very snooty if they think you're not a big spender. They've been getting a little better in the past year or so, but they've still got a long way to go. >Can anyone offer advice? Best I can suggest is to dig around on other sources you may have for used/surplus test gear. Even the big names, like Tucker Electronics, may have some old manuals they're willing to part with. Ideally, I would look around and see if you can find a 29B chassis. The 19's a rugged old workhorse, but it is just too darn old for much of the stuff out there. Worst case, I (and at least a couple other folks on the list) offer chip programming and reading services. If you've got something you desperately need programmed, read, or archived, let me know the device number and I'll tell you if I can do it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From lfb107 at psu.edu Thu Oct 15 10:35:38 1998 From: lfb107 at psu.edu (Les Berry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: old CDS modem Message-ID: <199810151533.LAA40186@f04n07.cac.psu.edu> Found an old modem that I forgot I owned and was just wondering a few things. First, it's a Concord Data Systems 224 ARQ/Autodial that I now remember was in tow by a 3B2 I picked up a while ago. Anyway, it's rather heavy (humongous hat sink on back) so i opened it up and began to think that the innards seemed a bit complicated for a 'modem.' OK, I'll admit it, I was 11 years old when these things would have been in use, but I have other modems from the peiod ('85-'86) that aren't nearly as complex. It's about the size of a large book and has three levels of circuit boards with a Z80 CPU, an SIO chip, and memory chips (one says "zeropower (tm) ram" on it and "DO NOT DISPOSE OF IN FIRE!!!!") on one level, Intel 8031 series chips on another and who knows what on the bottom (haven't taken it all apart yet). Not to mention the 32 dip switches (all off) and the 23 led's on the front. To make a long story short, what did/does this thing do that a regular modem of the time didn't do? Thanks, les From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Oct 15 11:38:16 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's Message-ID: <01J2ZTSB21B6A3JB62@cc.usu.edu> > DU device became available with RT V5.0. It supported RQDX1. I > think that RQDX2 was supported with V5.1 (though it may have been > latently supported with V5.0). I had to trade back some RQDX2s for RQDX1s on some PDP-11/73s I delivered to the gummint because RT-11 didn't support them. I don't recall which version we were using; it would have been at least 5.0. I remember grumbling about how fancy (read "bloated") RT-11 was getting, but I don't recall doing _that_ until 5.2; I thought it happened during the 11/73 incident, though. I also don't remember why I thought 5.2 was bloated (it may have been the UCL/UCF stuff, which I thought was unnecessary), but I did stash away a 5.0 distribution kit as a hedge against bloatation. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Oct 15 11:14:25 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's Message-ID: <981015121425.240000b0@trailing-edge.com> > I had to trade back some RQDX2s for RQDX1s on some PDP-11/73s I delivered > to the gummint because RT-11 didn't support them. I don't recall which > version we were using; it would have been at least 5.0. I remember > grumbling about how fancy (read "bloated") RT-11 was getting, but I don't > recall doing _that_ until 5.2; I thought it happened during the 11/73 > incident, though. I also don't remember why I thought 5.2 was bloated > (it may have been the UCL/UCF stuff, which I thought was unnecessary), Yes, the UCL stuff is unnecessary, which is why if you don't want it you simply answer SYSGEN question 100 with "NO": 100. Do you want the user command linkage (Y)? $ USER COMMAND LINKAGE OPTION: The user command linkage allows you to define your own commands which can be issued in a format similar to the standard DCL commands. 100. Do you want the user command linkage (Y)? NO > but I did stash away a 5.0 distribution kit as a hedge against bloatation. An even better hedge against bloatation is to get RT-11 5.6 or later and learn how to use SET RUN VBGEXE. No matter how big the monitors and drivers grow, by appropriately setting a .SAV image's VBGEXE bits you can give it access to "all" 56kbytes of virtual memory space. If you want direct access to I/O space, you can turn that on too, or you can also elect to have 64kbytes of virtual memory space available to your process if you don't need direct access to I/O space. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU Thu Oct 15 12:45:25 1998 From: Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Lisa software available Message-ID: <9841517@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> IP changed. New address: 129.170.86.186 Lisa Office System software and LisaTest (ftp), and information (http). -- MB From wanderer at bos.nl Thu Oct 15 15:33:10 1998 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: RL02 slides & brackets Message-ID: <36265C06.38D3@bos.nl> Hello All, Who can help me with a pair of RL01/RL02 slides and the 4 brackets? I want to mount my 3rd RL unit in the cabinet but don't have a 3rd pair of them. A payment can be discussed. Thanks, Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | zakkenvullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Thu Oct 15 13:46:07 1998 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: CNET Story (fwd) Message-ID: The CNET producer who did the coverage of VCF 2.0 has sent me the following: The piece on the festival is going to air this weekend on CNET Central. Check out http://cnet.tv.com for airtimes... Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web page update: 09/28/98] From dburrows at netpath.net Thu Oct 15 13:46:11 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: RL02 slides & brackets Message-ID: <005201bdf86e$8ed75690$a60b0b0b@p166> I have several here and you are welcome to a set for the shipping Plus a couple $ for boxing materials. Dan Burrows 336-376-0468 dburrows@netpath.net -----Original Message----- From: wanderer To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 15, 1998 2:35 PM Subject: RL02 slides & brackets Hello All, Who can help me with a pair of RL01/RL02 slides and the 4 brackets? I want to mount my 3rd RL unit in the cabinet but don't have a 3rd pair of them. A payment can be discussed. Thanks, Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | zakkenvullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Oct 15 14:37:57 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard Message-ID: <19981015193757.18203.qmail@hotmail.com> amazing amount of information on the Tandy site! They should be proud of themselves, considering someone was actually paid for typing this stuff up! > >Lawrence Walker wrote: > >> On 14 Oct 98 at 18:49, Max Eskin wrote: >> >> > Are these PC clones? I have seen a tandy (1000, I think) that had a >> > microphone port. Why was this? I have also seen a tandy which was >> > sort of like a C64 except it had a 3.5" disk drive. I'm _certain_ it >> > was a tandy. >> > >> They did run Dos and supposedly Gates wrote the OS for them. They were >> very similiar to the PC jr. and had a better resolution on the Tandy monitors >> than CGA. Can't remember the mike port but I seem to remember they did have >> a superior sound chip. TRS had a proprietory GUI (of sorts) called Deskmate >> that came with the sytem. The C64 type was likely a CoCo of which Murch is >> the resident expert. I believe he moderates the CoCo m-l .The CoCo 2 and 3 have >> an OS available called OS-9 which is IIRC quite impressive. > >The HX and EX were the 1000 versions that were low profile and were DOS, not OS/9 >machines. The HX had the 3.5" 720k floppy drive(s) in front and the EX had a 5.25" >360k drive on the right side. Both used a proprietary card slot known as a Plus >expansion and the cards (serial, hard disk and memory) are getting very hard to >come by anymore. > >Tandy has all the specs on the 1000 models on text files at >http://support.tandy.com/ > >Jason is correct on the keyboard plugs too. Later models went to a common keyboard, >older ones used a Tandy specific with a Tandy 1000 sticker on the back. The 2000 >used a similar looking keyboard but wired differently and had a 2000 label on the >back of it. > >THROWING the 1000's away?? You ought to b4e ashamed. > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Oct 15 14:39:49 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Franklin Ace 2100 Message-ID: <19981015193949.21257.qmail@hotmail.com> Better means any feature that would bias one towards one computer versus another. Did it include a z80, by any chance? On the back of this machine, there were some slot covers; did it take standard apple cards? > >I haven't tasted them yet ;) > > >I don't really know yet. I would believe that they added some features but >how would you define "better", more reliable, faster, bigger software >library? >All I can do is look at the specs and compare the two. > >Francois >------------------------------------------------------------- >Visit the desperately in need of update >Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From marvin at rain.org Thu Oct 15 14:57:54 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: CNET Story (fwd) References: Message-ID: <362653C2.4F16FF0C@rain.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > The CNET producer who did the coverage of VCF 2.0 has sent me the > following: > > The piece on the festival is going to air this weekend on CNET Central. > Check out http://cnet.tv.com for airtimes... I did a quick browse as well as entering in both "VCF" and "Vinatage Computer Festival" and nothing turned up. Where did you find the schedule? From marvin at rain.org Thu Oct 15 15:01:13 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: Coco I on ebay References: <19981015193949.21257.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <36265489.473970E6@rain.org> In checking through ebay, I found a Coco I where the auction closes in about 5 hours (6PM PST) with the current bid ay $9.00. If anyone is interested, see http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=34719907. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Oct 15 15:08:46 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: CNET Story (fwd) In-Reply-To: <362653C2.4F16FF0C@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > The CNET producer who did the coverage of VCF 2.0 has sent me the > > following: > > > > The piece on the festival is going to air this weekend on CNET Central. > > Check out http://cnet.tv.com for airtimes... > > I did a quick browse as well as entering in both "VCF" and "Vinatage > Computer Festival" and nothing turned up. Where did you find the schedule? Take a look under the "Whats on next week" link. It's noted there under the CNETCentral section as "A look back on Computer History" -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 15 15:29:20 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: CNET Story (fwd) In-Reply-To: <362653C2.4F16FF0C@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > The CNET producer who did the coverage of VCF 2.0 has sent me the > > following: > > > > The piece on the festival is going to air this weekend on CNET Central. > > Check out http://cnet.tv.com for airtimes... > > I did a quick browse as well as entering in both "VCF" and "Vinatage > Computer Festival" and nothing turned up. Where did you find the schedule? Its pretty buried, and it doesn't actually say "Coverage of VCF". Its basically just a listing of when CNET airs on USA Network and the SciFi Channel. Check out: http://www.cnet.com/Content/Tv/Airtimes/airtimes.html?st.cn.TV.more.airtimes Unless you get SciFi, you're looking at 6:00am. Bay Area TV fans get to see it at much better times on KPIX (the above URL has a link to the KPIX schedule). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 15 15:30:57 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:23 2005 Subject: CNET Story (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, James Willing wrote: > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > > > The CNET producer who did the coverage of VCF 2.0 has sent me the > > > following: > > > > > > The piece on the festival is going to air this weekend on CNET Central. > > > Check out http://cnet.tv.com for airtimes... > > > > I did a quick browse as well as entering in both "VCF" and "Vinatage > > Computer Festival" and nothing turned up. Where did you find the schedule? > > Take a look under the "Whats on next week" link. It's noted there under > the CNETCentral section as "A look back on Computer History" Oh, cool. I hadn't noticed that. Thanks. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Oct 15 15:46:16 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "RE: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's" (Oct 14, 18:28) References: Message-ID: <9810152146.ZM2617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 14, 18:28, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Subject: RE: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's > >What exactly do your "RX33's" do when you try to access them? > > They flicker briefly just prior to the machine complaining it can't boot. > I'm not sure I had them connected properly. I'll try the method Allison > suggested in a little bit. That sounds suspiciously like what the controller does to "sniff" an RX50. There's a bit of majic between the side select and track zero signals on an RX50, which the controller uses to test that it's a real RX50. > Well, the stickers are pretty hard to read, but if I'm looking at the right > two, they both say > > LMB617 or LM8617 > then one says 21725 or 217E5 > I'm pretty sure the second says 216E5 That's 23-216E5 and 23-217E5, the first version of the RQDX3 code. The second revision is 23-244E5 and 23-245E5, which I think does support RX33s. The 23- means a ROM and the E5 means 16Kbytes (ie a 27128 EPROM). > If these aren't ROMs that support RX33's which ones should I be looking > for, there is a chance one of my other RQDX3's that I've got in my spares > will work. There was a third version, which was a minor bugfix, 23-285E5 and 23-286E5. I'm looking for a copy of those for my archive... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Oct 15 15:54:40 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: CNET Story (fwd) Message-ID: <19981015205440.18471.qmail@hotmail.com> Is that a separate cable channel, or what (specify)? > > >The CNET producer who did the coverage of VCF 2.0 has sent me the >following: > >The piece on the festival is going to air this weekend on CNET Central. >Check out http://cnet.tv.com for airtimes... > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@verio.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details > [Last web page update: 09/28/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 15 12:42:43 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: A Commodore 'pre-computer' In-Reply-To: <981014232205.23a000ba@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 14, 98 11:22:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 782 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981015/f84358e2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 15 12:39:55 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 14, 98 06:28:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 646 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981015/af88edf4/attachment.ksh From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Oct 15 17:17:47 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: PROM Burner Message-ID: <402457b2.3626748b@aol.com> I have a couple of 29s for sale, several plugs and a copy of the manual. if anyone is interested. Paxton From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 15 17:20:23 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: CNET Story (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19981015205440.18471.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Is that a separate cable channel, or what (specify)? CNET is a syndicated television show. > >The CNET producer who did the coverage of VCF 2.0 has sent me the > >following: > > > >The piece on the festival is going to air this weekend on CNET Central. > >Check out http://cnet.tv.com for airtimes... Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Oct 15 18:17:09 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's Message-ID: <981015191709.202000a9@trailing-edge.com> >I am almost sure you need a cable without the PC-twist. Absolutely correct. > Also, you >probably need to set the drive select jumpers properly (Can somebody tell >us what to?). There's absolutely no need to guess on this subject - Terry Kennedy has collected a great amount of wisdom and experience on this subject in THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, a compendium of DECUServe conferences, available by anonymous ftp from ftp.spc.edu. The answer for the drive select jumpers is easy: first drive at DS0, second at DS1. The jumpers selecting motor speed control are a bit more complicated; Terry's collection of data covers several popular Teac drives, and if the answer isn't there browsing through the Teac jumper setting recommendations will quickly give the answer for any specific drive they've sold. Teac's faxback service is at +1 213 727 7629, and is a valuable source of technical data regarding the various drives and options they've produced (and still produce.) Tim. From paulk at microsoft.com Thu Oct 15 18:29:37 1998 From: paulk at microsoft.com (Paul Kearns) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: SWTP 6800 on Haggle Message-ID: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B5085493EC@RED-MSG-45> There's a working SWTP 6800 machine on Haggle Online, complete with a doc set. Of course, since it's an Internet auction, he wants $1000 for it, but just in case someone's interested. http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201793143 Paul Kearns paulk@microsoft.com From dburrows at netpath.net Thu Oct 15 18:38:12 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's Message-ID: <004d01bdf895$2829de50$a60b0b0b@p166> RX33's use a straight cable without the PC twist. I have several here but use only one at a time on my test beds. I have several from various pieces of DEC equipment and they all use the drive select jumpers with a straight cable. Dan Burrows dburrows@netpath.net -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 15, 1998 5:58 PM Subject: Re: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's > > >What exactly do your "RX33's" do when you try to access them? > > They flicker briefly just prior to the machine complaining it can't boot. > I'm not sure I had them connected properly. I'll try the method Allison > suggested in a little bit. Do the drive spindle motors ever run? You can't read data from a disk that's not spinning. I am almost sure you need a cable without the PC-twist. Also, you probably need to set the drive select jumpers properly (Can somebody tell us what to?). Remember that the PC-twist not only swaps over 2 of the drive select lines, it also gives separate motor on signals for the 2 drives. -tony From backofene at hotmail.com Thu Oct 15 18:49:38 1998 From: backofene at hotmail.com (Eileen Backofen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Tandys gone/Apples anyone? Message-ID: <19981015234943.27545.qmail@hotmail.com> I checked the storeroom at school today to discover that all the old Tandy equipment (which had collected dust there for 2 years) has been disposed of. Not even a keyboard left. All I could find is an assortment of Apple II GSes, drives, Imagewriters etc & a few old Mac LCs. Sorry, I remember those old Tandys - 2 labs worth. (used 86-96). They even had an Apple Emulation card (Trackstar) since at that time no one in education could imagine using anything besides an Apple. Eileen ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 15 19:38:21 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's Message-ID: <199810160038.AA23048@world.std.com> < I am almost sure you need a cable without the PC-twist. Also, you < probably need to set the drive select jumpers properly (Can somebody tel < us what to?). Remember that the PC-twist not only swaps over 2 of the < drive select lines, it also gives separate motor on signals for the 2 dr The "twist" cable only applies to PC or systems using PC patterned interfaces. It DOES NOT APPLY TO RQDX and distribution boards used in Qbus systems. RQDXn uses a single bussed motor on and drive selection by drive select jumper. If you use a RX33 drive try using only one for starters, that will lower the sillyness factor. If you media is RX50... why not use an RX50. If all else fails and your configuring a second system move the controller that works over to the target or move the target controller to the running system as a second drive/unit. Allison From ecloud at goodnet.com Thu Oct 15 20:01:20 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Tandys gone/Apples anyone? In-Reply-To: <19981015234943.27545.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Eileen Backofen" at Oct 15, 98 04:49:38 pm Message-ID: <199810160101.SAA26672@goodnet.com> > I checked the storeroom at school today to discover that all the old > Tandy equipment (which had collected dust there for 2 years) has been > disposed of. Not even a keyboard left. All I could find is an > assortment of Apple II GSes, drives, Imagewriters etc & a few old Mac > LCs. Where was this at? I wouldn't mind getting a IIgs setup but don't want to pay a lot of shipping since I can probably find them locally eventually. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * Java * card-carrying member of the procrastinati * ham radio * Linux * From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 15 20:17:28 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <9810152146.ZM2617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: "Zane H. Healy" "RE: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's" (Oct 14, 18:28) Message-ID: Peter Turnbull wrote: >That's 23-216E5 and 23-217E5, the first version of the RQDX3 code. The >second revision is 23-244E5 and 23-245E5, which I think does support RX33s. > The 23- means a ROM and the E5 means 16Kbytes (ie a 27128 EPROM). I hope you mean 23-243E5 and 23-244E5. I was able to find one controller with that revision, however the rest were the original revision. BTW what are the two extra jumpers on the later revision card? Still no luck otherwise though. Acts the same when I try to boot. Tony Duell wrote: >Do the drive spindle motors ever run? You can't read data from a disk >that's not spinning. Yes. The RX33 definitly spins, and as far as I can tell the RX50 also spins. I've about given up hope on this. Tomorrow night I'll probably lug a RL02 drive into the house and put the controller in the running system, make a bootable RL02 pack, then move the controller over to the other system and boot it from RL02. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 15 20:23:23 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Partitioning a HD with RT-11 V5.3 Message-ID: I realized something, even if I do get this working, I'm going to need to partition one of the ESDI hard drives since they are to big for RT-11, according to the WQESD controllers documentation the partitions need to be 30Mb or smaller. My smallest ESDI drive is 150Mb. How do I go about partitioning the drives? Unfortunatly my Doc set is for V3, so I can't RTFM on this one. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From altair8800 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 15 20:53:50 1998 From: altair8800 at hotmail.com (Bob Wood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: mucho Altairs on eBay Message-ID: <19981016015350.7826.qmail@hotmail.com> Looks like the Albuqurque Altairs are coming out of the woodwork. There is now a 680 and a 680b to go with the 8800bt. If anyone was monitoring the auction of the 680 a couple of weeks ago which did not meet the reserve price of $2500 - thought you might be interested to know that it was bought by a buyer in Italy after the auction. The purchaser bought it only to trade for an original 8800 which he has done. It will be interesting to see what happens with these 680's currently up for auction. It appears that the eBay bidders are not very aware of the scarcity of the 680 and are consumed by the hype surrounding the 8800. Bob Wood ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 15 20:56:25 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Tandys gone/Apples anyone? In-Reply-To: <19981015234943.27545.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Eileen Backofen wrote: > I checked the storeroom at school today to discover that all the old > Tandy equipment (which had collected dust there for 2 years) has been > disposed of. Not even a keyboard left. All I could find is an > assortment of Apple II GSes, drives, Imagewriters etc & a few old Mac > LCs. Better grab those before they meet the same fate. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From mbg at world.std.com Thu Oct 15 21:00:53 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Partitioning a HD with RT-11 V5.3 Message-ID: <199810160200.AA26305@world.std.com> >I realized something, even if I do get this working, I'm going to need to >partition one of the ESDI hard drives since they are to big for RT-11, >according to the WQESD controllers documentation the partitions need to >be 30Mb or smaller. My smallest ESDI drive is 150Mb. By default, if your disk is larger than 65535 blocks, the physical unit numbers for the DU device map to partition zero (0-65534) of the selected physical unit. If you want to map another unit of the DU handler to another partition, you issue the command: SET DUn UNIT=m part=p where 'n' is the RT-11 unit number, 'm' is the physical unit number in your MSCP configuration, and 'p' is the partition number (starting at zero). For example, say I have an RQDX3 with an RD54 (169mb) and an RX50 (dual drive): DU0 = Partition zero (0-65534) on phys unit 0 (rd54) DU1 = First of the RX50 drives DU2 = Second of the RX50 drives If I want address more of the RD54, I can do the following: DU0 = Partition zero (0-65534) on phys unit 0 (rd54) DU1 = First of the RX50 drives DU2 = Second of the RX50 drives DU3 = unassigned DU4 = Partition one on phys unit 0 (set du4 unit=0 part=1) DU5 = Partition two on phys unit 0 (set du5 unit=0 part=2) DU6 = Partition three on phys unit 0 (set du6 unit=0 part=3) DU7 = Partition four on phys unit 0 (set du7 unit=0 part=4) This is, in fact, how many partitions you would get on an RD54. All of the partitions except the last one will be full 65535 block units. The last one is about 7k blocks. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer p.s. I forgot... after doing all these SET commands, you'll have to reboot for them to take affect. +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Oct 15 21:15:05 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Partitioning a HD with RT-11 V5.3 Message-ID: <981015221505.202000bd@trailing-edge.com> >I realized something, even if I do get this working, I'm going to need to >partition one of the ESDI hard drives since they are to big for RT-11, >according to the WQESD controllers documentation the partitions need to be >30Mb or smaller. My smallest ESDI drive is 150Mb. >How do I go about partitioning the drives? Unfortunatly my Doc set is for >V3, so I can't RTFM on this one. Since you've got a WQESD, you've got two choices with respect to partitioning: 1: Hardware partitioning. Partition your 150 Mbyte drive into multiple 65536-blocks drive through the WQESD firmware. You don't need to do a reformat from scratch; just redefine the disk structure and write it to disk. 2: Software partitioning. Partition from RT-11. Assuming your drive is at LUN 0, you already have the default mappings SET DU0:UNIT=0 and SET DU0:PART=0. The "UNIT" refers to the MSCP LUN of the drive, and the PART refers to the software partition number. Map DU1: to be the second logical partition on the first MSCP LUN with SET DU1:UNIT=0 followed by SET DU1:PART=1. Continue on up until you've used up all the disk. Each PART refers to a logical partition on disk, each of which is 65536 blocks long (except for the last one, which is whatever is left over.) Of course, only the first 65535 blocks of each partition are directly usable, given RT-11's block numbering scheme. SHOW DEV:DU will show you the current partitioning. Keep in mind that if DU is your system disk, you'll have to do a reboot to reload the driver with the "new" partition settings before they'll go into effect. (You wouldn't believe the number of RT-11 5.7 field test sites who complained "partitioning doesn't work" when they simply failed to reboot after the SET DU's! This has been in the manuals for over a decade!) After rebooting, INIT DU1:, etc., and away you go! Since you *do* have the WQESD, I heavily recommend that you do your partitioning at the WQESD level and not at the RT-11 level. This way all your partitions will be hardware bootable. If you do the partitioning through RT-11, the resulting logical partitions won't be hardware bootable. A neat tool (hey, I wrote it, I think it's neat) for looking at MSCP- level stuff under RT-11 is the DUSTAT program, available from ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rt/dustat/ Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Oct 15 21:24:19 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Franklin Ace 2100 Message-ID: <002101bdf8ac$155690e0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> I am not familiar enough with both machines to make a judjement on which one is better but the franklin display some features that seem interesting: apple dos 3.3 compatibility, floating point basic, apparently could run CP/M or Pascal (OS?)(not much info on that), programmable function keysimpressive display capabilities (16 colors at 560 x 192), built in parallel and serial interfaces and memory expandable up to 576K. Compare that to the Apple IIe or IIc. The memory extension and RGB interface cards are optional (128K and 80 column color?) It's hard to tell what the exact caracteristics are the users manual keep refering to the technical manual that I don't have. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 15, 1998 2:43 PM Subject: Re: Franklin Ace 2100 > > > > >Better means any feature that would bias one towards one computer >versus another. Did it include a z80, by any chance? On the back >of this machine, there were some slot covers; did it take standard >apple cards? >> >>I haven't tasted them yet ;) >> >> >>I don't really know yet. I would believe that they added some features >but >>how would you define "better", more reliable, faster, bigger software >>library? >>All I can do is look at the specs and compare the two. >> >>Francois >>------------------------------------------------------------- >>Visit the desperately in need of update >>Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon >> >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 15 21:22:01 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Dutch museum needs Kennedy 9300 docs. Message-ID: A computer museum in The Netherlands is looking for the documentation for a Kennedy 9300 tape drive. I'm sure someone on this list has that. http://www.wins.uva.nl/faculteit/museum/wanted.html Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 15 21:27:40 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: PROM Burner Message-ID: <199810160227.AA15161@world.std.com> < I have a couple of 29s for sale, several plugs and a copy of the manual. < anyone is interested. < Paxton What kind of price is attached to one? Allison From handyman at sprintmail.com Thu Oct 15 10:32:39 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store References: Message-ID: <36261597.2F18F56D@sprintmail.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Phil Clayton wrote: > > > Here's a good find for ya.. Today at the Local Salvation Army store i > > saw this huge IBM 5120 console machine on wheels. Its an Auto > > Diagnostics station. Must weigh 500lbs easy, mounted on wheels with a > > built in touch screen monitor.. I opened up the side panel on it and saw > > a CDROM drive, UPS, Some sort of cartridge drive and hard drive.. It had > > 30 or 40 cdroms (Auto tech data) and all the manuals for it. Looking at > > the manuals it appears to be an XT type machine. > > Did you grab it? If not, do! You can leave the automotive diagnostics > stuff behind, but the 5120 is the last of the original 5100 line, and the > machine that followed it was the 5150 (i.e., the PC). > I will go back to the Thrift store to take a closer look at the IBM 5120 Auto diagnostics machine tomorrow and see if its an XT class or truly a 5100 computer as you indicated..I really don't think so as I did see a cdrom drive 5-1/4 and a 5-1/4 360 floppy drive on it.. If it was resonably priced I would get it just for the touch screen monitor.. Like I said the think is huge, the size of a Washing Machine and built like an army tank. Perhaps thats what it was used for , tuning up army tanks.. Ha! Phil... From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 15 22:47:13 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Franklin Ace 2100 In-Reply-To: <002101bdf8ac$155690e0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Francois wrote: > I am not familiar enough with both machines to make a judjement on which one > is better but the franklin display some features that seem interesting: > apple dos 3.3 compatibility, floating point basic, apparently could run CP/M > or Pascal (OS?)(not much info on that), programmable function keysimpressive > display capabilities (16 colors at 560 x 192), built in parallel and serial > interfaces and memory expandable up to 576K. The only difference between the Ace and the Apple //e is the programmable function keys (nothing special) and the built-in I/O ports. Otherwise, all the capabilities you outline are the specs they cloned from the //e. All Apple clones were either simple copies or, in the case of the Franklin clones, had added features included with the base price (which was normally cheaper) that were extra cost options on the Apple. Otherwise, its not like they extended the capabilities of the Apple since no software company would support any non-Apple hardware extensions. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From museum at techniche.com Thu Oct 15 23:44:06 1998 From: museum at techniche.com (Jon Healey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Dutch museum needs Kennedy 9300 docs. Message-ID: <199810160444.AAA02708@chmls05.mediaone.net> I've got the service manual that I used to use when I supported them. I still have a couple of drives though so I don't want to lose it. I could make a copy given enough time (it must be ~200 pages). I was planning to do that at some point since there's someone else on the list that I promised a copy to (I'll have to dig up that message to find out who). Do they have an urgent need or are they just trying to prepare for when they need it? Jon > >A computer museum in The Netherlands is looking for the documentation for >a Kennedy 9300 tape drive. I'm sure someone on this list has that. > >http://www.wins.uva.nl/faculteit/museum/wanted.html > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > From museum at techniche.com Thu Oct 15 23:46:02 1998 From: museum at techniche.com (Jon Healey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Dutch museum needs Kennedy 9300 docs. Message-ID: <199810160446.AAA03079@chmls05.mediaone.net> Opps, I missed that URL. It's late (early?) and I thought it was part of your digital signature. I'll follow up on it myself....... > >A computer museum in The Netherlands is looking for the documentation for >a Kennedy 9300 tape drive. I'm sure someone on this list has that. > >http://www.wins.uva.nl/faculteit/museum/wanted.html > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Oct 16 00:31:36 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Dutch museum needs Kennedy 9300 docs. In-Reply-To: <199810160444.AAA02708@chmls05.mediaone.net> Message-ID: The other person was myself.... If you send me the manual, I will happily make several copies, return it and a copy to you, keep one for me, and send the other(s) where they are needed. As far as I have been able to determine, it is no longer available commercially, and the machines are of course obsolete and unsupported. I'd *love* to have another one.... even a junker for parts... hint hint hint.... anyone? I pay shipping.... Cheers John From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Oct 16 00:32:06 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sethm@loomcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: SMD disk analyzer Message-ID: <199810160532.WAA27697@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 747 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981015/47131592/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Oct 16 01:29:54 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: PROM Burner In-Reply-To: <003101bdf833$26ef9d20$d73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981016012954.2dcf4c84@intellistar.net> Hans, DataI/O is the lousy about supporting the older equipment. I have a model 29 and a 2B module. I do have instructions for the 29 but not for the module. The 29 can be programmed from a computer by simple data transfer via Rs-232. Or you can use the keypad to enter all the data or to modify the data. BUT you need the instructions for the module since they include the code numbers used to identify the various EPROMS to the programmer. Without those codes the programmer is useless. Joe At 09:58 PM 10/15/98 +1000, you wrote: >I have found an ancient PROM burner, a Data I/O System 19, with a Unipac >module fitted. Test stickers on it are dated 1980. >It came with an "Operators Synopsis" with which I am totally out of my depth >and a wall chart dated 1985 with details of PROMs of the day and which >Unipak revision applies to which. > >?????????? > >I had hoped to be able to use it to back up older ROMs which my circa 1995 >EPROM programmer can't handle. Is it usable for this? > >It has a serial type connector but no software (it predates the PC). There >is an LED and a hexadecimal keyboard. It looks like it was meant to be used >manually !! Typing stuff in character by character. > >There's nothing on Data I/O's website about this and they haven't replied to >my email as yet. > >Can anyone offer advice? > >Thanks >Hans > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 16 02:02:11 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's" (Oct 15, 18:17) References: "Zane H. Healy" "RE: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's" (Oct 14 18:28) Message-ID: <9810160802.ZM3079@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 15, 18:17, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Subject: Re: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's > Peter Turnbull wrote: > >That's 23-216E5 and 23-217E5, the first version of the RQDX3 code. The > >second revision is 23-244E5 and 23-245E5, which I think does support RX33s. > I hope you mean 23-243E5 and 23-244E5. I was able to find one controller > with that revision, however the rest were the original revision. Yes, I do, sorry! > BTW what are the two extra jumpers on the later revision card? Which jumopers? > Still no luck otherwise though. Acts the same when I try to boot. If your ROMs don't support RX33s, there are two problems that may prevent the RQDX seeing the drives as usable. First is that an RX50 responds with a READY signal as soon as it's polled, if there's a disk in it, because the READY signal is really a "disk in" signal from a set of contacts. Most drives respond with READY only after the disk is up to speed, since the signal is derived from the index pulses (the original meaning of the READY signal was that there is a disk in, and it's up to speed, as determined by measuring the time between two index pulses). The 200ms (minimum) delay prevents the RQDX seeing the disk. Second is that on an RX50, the SideSelect -- which isn't normally used, since an RX50 is really two single-sided drives -- is used to disable the TrackZero output. The RQDX tests for an RX50 by stepping to Trk0, checking the output, setting the SideSelect, and checking that the Trk0 signal has gone away. I guess these tests are probably because the RX50 shares some signals with the RDxx drives on the same distribution board. I have two or three Canon and Mitsubishi drives modified to work like this, and they work fine on RQDX2s and 3s. Unmodified, they don't. In fact, now I think about it, I have a feeling those drive "fixes" are needed for the 243/244 ROMs as well. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Oct 15 23:45:46 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard In-Reply-To: <3625D437.6DA87AD6@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <199810160849.EAA05806@smtp.interlog.com> On 15 Oct 98 at 5:53, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > On 14 Oct 98 at 18:49, Max Eskin wrote: > > > > > Are these PC clones? I have seen a tandy (1000, I think) that had a > > > microphone port. Why was this? I have also seen a tandy which was > > > sort of like a C64 except it had a 3.5" disk drive. I'm _certain_ it > > > was a tandy. > > > > > They did run Dos and supposedly Gates wrote the OS for them. They were On checking the docs I find it was the Tandy 2000 that used the special MSDOS 2.11 From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Oct 15 23:45:45 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: WANG In-Reply-To: <199810150848.KAA23623@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <199810160849.EAA05799@smtp.interlog.com> On 15 Oct 98 at 10:08, Hans Franke wrote: > Now a question for the real wiered stuff: > > Does anybody know a Wang-71 ? > I just know the name - I'm right now on a trace of > a specific Russian computer, and they told me that > this machine is a Wang-71 clone, but I can't find any > information about this machine. No, I have no pictures > of the Russian machine and no further data. The clone > is build 1975, so the original design might me a bit > earlyer. > > > Gruss > H. > > P.S.: has anyone a list of PDP-clones ? I want to > classify some finds. > > -- > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK > > http://www.hotvs.com/portal.html has links to much of the Wang world It has links also to the Wang International Users Group BBS which has a listing of most of the Wangs made. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Fri Oct 16 04:19:43 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Joined Messages Message-ID: <004301bdf8e6$1cf61de0$d73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I am finding an unusual number of inappropriately joined messages. A Listserv problem? Does anyone know how to get this fixed? From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 16 05:53:59 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard Message-ID: <199810161053.AA10602@world.std.com> < I think only the CoCos could use OS9 Coco's were not even intel powered. The CPU was the 6809, they were plastic cased and bore no resembelence to the Tandy 1000(series) or 2000(series). Coco's ran a resident basic and if you had a disk interface/drive OS9 was available. Allison From backofene at hotmail.com Fri Oct 16 05:56:04 1998 From: backofene at hotmail.com (Eileen Backofen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Tandys gone/Apples anyone? Message-ID: <19981016105605.3027.qmail@hotmail.com> We're located in northern VA, 7 miles from DC. The challenge is to get the old stuff in the hands of those who want it so it doesn't wind up in landfills. We used to have "yard sales" to clear out the old stuff, but I got tired of answering questions/complaints months later from people who bought an entire system for $10, so eventually we just set the stuff out and let any interested people take it away. With our student population increasing, we're using every available space as classrooms. Write me at backofene@hotmail.com if you want to help us "take out the trash". Eileen > >> I checked the storeroom at school today to discover that all the old >> Tandy equipment (which had collected dust there for 2 years) has been >> disposed of. Not even a keyboard left. All I could find is an >> assortment of Apple II GSes, drives, Imagewriters etc & a few old Mac >> LCs. > >Where was this at? I wouldn't mind getting a IIgs setup but don't want to >pay a lot of shipping since I can probably find them locally eventually. > > >-- > _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com > (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud > __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ >* Java * card-carrying member of the procrastinati * ham radio * Linux * > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 16 07:15:59 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: mucho Altairs on eBay Message-ID: <199810161056.MAA01934@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Looks like the Albuqurque Altairs are coming > out of the woodwork. There is now a 680 and > a 680b to go with the 8800bt. > If anyone was monitoring the auction of the > 680 a couple of weeks ago which did not meet the reserve > price of $2500 - thought you might be interested > to know that it was bought by a buyer in Italy > after the auction. The purchaser bought it only > to trade for an original 8800 which he has done. > It will be interesting to see what happens with > these 680's currently up for auction. It appears > that the eBay bidders are not very aware of the > scarcity of the 680 and are consumed by the hype > surrounding the 8800. The 680's are nice, but the 1500 minbid limit on each is way to high. I did send the seller a mail with an reasonable bid - so maybe they end up in Germany :) Gruss H. (My wrath to anyone giving a higher bid :) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 16 07:24:47 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: mucho Vintage on eBay Message-ID: <199810161105.NAA28779@marina.fth.sbs.de> Nice Addition: True rare Vintage stuff: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=35930019 Gruss H. (And for Salam: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=34818513) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From gram at cnct.com Fri Oct 16 07:11:47 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Joined Messages References: <004301bdf8e6$1cf61de0$d73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <36273803.96630068@cnct.com> Olminkhof wrote: > > I am finding an unusual number of inappropriately joined messages. A > Listserv problem? > Does anyone know how to get this fixed? It usually (in my experience with a crappy ISP -- the one I'm using) results from the mail spool filesystem running out of space. Call your ISP and tell them they need to provide more room. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From gram at cnct.com Fri Oct 16 07:26:16 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard References: <199810160849.EAA05806@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <36273B68.39CC2F1D@cnct.com> Lawrence Walker wrote: > 9) What operating systems could the Model 2000 run? > Tandy relseased only one version of MS-DOS for the machine, and that was a > special version of MS-DOS 2.11, which went through 3 revisions during the > machines lifetime, the last one being 2.11.03. Actually, it started out with MS-DOS 2.0, switched to 2.11 about 6-8 months later when Microsoft finally stabilized MS-DOS 2. Yes, there were several patches to 2.11. (As there had been to 2.0). The third position in the version name is a change of patchlevel, not release or major revision. A version numbering system I still use for anything I write, though what I write is mostly shell scripts. With comment lines. Source tracked. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 16 07:50:35 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: SMD disk analyzer Message-ID: <981016085035.202000b0@trailing-edge.com> >I just picked up a nifty little box at WeirdStuff Warehouse for $26 >(I probably paid too much...). It's a "Wilson Laboratories MWX-1000S >SMD Disk Analyzer", and as far as I can tell seems to be in good >working order. It has numerous diagnostic buttons, a Hex keypad, >and a green LED display on the front, and connectors galore on the >back, along with cables. >Has anyone seen one of these? Are they very useful? At the moment >I don't have any SMD disks, but I don't doubt I'll have some at some >point in the future. >If anyone knows more about this unit, I'd love to hear about it. Wilson Labs advertises heavily in _Processor_ and other minicomputer hardware rags to promote their modern drive systems that replace vintage ones. In particular, they sell the electronics that will make a single modern SCSI drive look like many RK05's, Diablos, Massbus disk, or SMD disk. Thanks to their efforts, hundreds of classic mid-60's IBM and DEC systems are still running at many sites doing important work! The Wilson Labs systems aren't cheap, though :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From gene at ehrich.com Fri Oct 16 08:05:22 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store In-Reply-To: References: <19981014192658.30955.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199810161327.GAA23083@mxu4.u.washington.edu> At 01:08 PM 10/14/98 -0700, you wrote: >On 14 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Does IBM reuse model numbers? I suppose they must, or four-digit numbers >> would have been exhausted long ago. > >Well... considering that a couple of machines that I have in my lab at >work are branded (on the front panel) "IBM (Personal Computer) 360 ?!? > Humorous and I have had more than one ford also. You are speaking of an IBM PC Type not model number which by the way was followed with a model number for its full name. It used the 360 in its name due to the similarity in architecture to the system but certainly did not have the same model number. The IBM System 360 was a system type which also had a model numbers. gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From gene at ehrich.com Fri Oct 16 08:00:45 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: IBM Reuse model numbers? In-Reply-To: References: <19981014192658.30955.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199810161327.GAA04820@mxu2.u.washington.edu> At 04:15 PM 10/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >On 14 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Does IBM reuse model numbers? NO gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From gene at ehrich.com Fri Oct 16 07:59:53 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store In-Reply-To: References: <19981014192658.30955.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199810161327.GAA04798@mxu2.u.washington.edu> 5168 XT286 At 04:15 PM 10/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >On 14 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Does IBM reuse model numbers? I suppose they must, or four-digit numbers >> would have been exhausted long ago. > >Are you suggesting that IBM has produced over 10,000 different computer >models? I doubt it! > >> The IBM 5120 I'm (only slightly) familiar with is a later version of the >> IBM 5100 portable computer from 1975. > >Does anybody know all the machines that comprised the 51xx series? The >few I know are: > >5100, IBM Portable >5110, similar with optional (?) 8" flops >5120, bigger screen, built-in 8" flops >5140, Convertible >5150, PC >5155, Portable PC >5160, PC/XT >5180, PC/AT > >Was there a 5130? > >-- Doug > gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From kyrrin at jps.net Fri Oct 16 09:03:20 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: PROM Burner In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981016012954.2dcf4c84@intellistar.net> References: <003101bdf833$26ef9d20$d73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981016070320.0093ca90@mail.jps.net> At 01:29 16-10-98, you wrote: >Hans, > > DataI/O is the lousy about supporting the older equipment. I have a >model 29 and a 2B module. I do have instructions for the 29 but not for >the module. The 29 can be programmed from a computer by simple data >transfer via Rs-232. Or you can use the keypad to enter all the data or to >modify the data. BUT you need the instructions for the module since they >include the code numbers used to identify the various EPROMS to the >programmer. Without those codes the programmer is useless. The codes you refer to (Family/Pinout) are contained in the 'wallchrt.dos' file, available for free download from Data I/O's web site (www.data-io.com). FWIW, I checked with DIO yesterday on reading the old 1702 with a UniSite. They don't even have the device listed in their "obsolete" section. I guess it just goes to show one how far back it goes. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Fri Oct 16 10:21:12 1998 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: UNIVAC memory screens web site. Message-ID: <199810161521.LAA09023@golden.net> There is a cute web site (www.netw.com/~drfcline then click on memory screens) that refer to core memory planes as "memory screens". Perhaps the word "screens" was used to describe core planes, but I've never seen it used that way before. Anyway there might be a few of us who have not visited this site and so now we can. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Oct 16 12:19:30 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: mucho Altairs on eBay Message-ID: Not a great auction presentation, if you ask me. The same poor overhead photo for both units, which gives us no idea of cosmetic condition. Apparently no documentation. Sold "as is" ?!? How could a front-panel computer be "untested"? And on top of all that, the seller has a (0) rating (i.e. never sold anything on eBay before). Beware... Kai -----Original Message----- From: Bob Wood [mailto:altair8800@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 6:54 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: mucho Altairs on eBay Looks like the Albuqurque Altairs are coming out of the woodwork. There is now a 680 and a 680b to go with the 8800bt. If anyone was monitoring the auction of the 680 a couple of weeks ago which did not meet the reserve price of $2500 - thought you might be interested to know that it was bought by a buyer in Italy after the auction. The purchaser bought it only to trade for an original 8800 which he has done. It will be interesting to see what happens with these 680's currently up for auction. It appears that the eBay bidders are not very aware of the scarcity of the 680 and are consumed by the hype surrounding the 8800. Bob Wood ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 16 12:18:08 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Rescue... Message-ID: <199810161718.AA03112@world.std.com> Contact Joy if your interested in what appears to be a PS2/25 or 30 series machine I have every reason to belive she would prefer pick up. I can't due to problems with my truck and far too little space to store things at the moment. Allison =================================== From: Joy Favretti Subject: Re: Antique Computer Status: R Thanks for posting it Allison. I'm not sure of make. It is an old one which our son gave us in place of an even older IBM. PS/2 sounds right. Otherwise, your guess is better than mine. I have no documentation for it. Joy FavrettiAt 12:48 PM 10/14/98 -0400, you wrote: >< Please let me know if you are interested. I live in Storrs, Connecticu >< which is within your two hour pick-up range. We are on Route 44, just >< off the Mass Pike. From erd at infinet.com Fri Oct 16 13:10:25 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: SMD disk analyzer In-Reply-To: <981016085035.202000b0@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 16, 98 08:50:35 am Message-ID: <199810161810.OAA28885@user2.infinet.com> > > >I just picked up a nifty little box at WeirdStuff Warehouse for $26 > >(I probably paid too much...). It's a "Wilson Laboratories MWX-1000S > >SMD Disk Analyzer", and as far as I can tell seems to be in good > >working order. It has numerous diagnostic buttons, a Hex keypad, > >and a green LED display on the front, and connectors galore on the > >back, along with cables. > >Has anyone seen one of these? Are they very useful? At the moment > >I don't have any SMD disks, but I don't doubt I'll have some at some > >point in the future. Oy! I' *love* one of those. I have a couple of SMD disks now, and I am rescuing a couple more Fujistu Eagles from a 750 in Dayton. All of these are attached to VAXen via SI-9900 Massbus<->SMD adapters. I'd also love to lay my hands on some 8" or 5.25" SMD driver. Those 14" monsters are a bear to move and keep fed. -ethan From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 16 14:02:31 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: SMD disk analyzer Message-ID: <981016150231.202000af@trailing-edge.com> >Oy! I' *love* one of those. I have a couple of SMD disks now, and I am >rescuing a couple more Fujistu Eagles from a 750 in Dayton. All of these >are attached to VAXen via SI-9900 Massbus<->SMD adapters. >I'd also love to lay my hands on some 8" or 5.25" SMD driver. Those 14" >monsters are a bear to move and keep fed. Actually, those Eagles you have are 10.5" drives. Earlier Fuji's, like the 2281/82/83/84 series, were 14". (And also had nice transparent HDA covers so you could see the heads seeking across the platters.) Just look in any issue of _Processor_ and you'll find many minicomputer dealers selling 8" SMD drives like the Fuji 2333's and the like. And there's a dealer who posts to the Usenet PDP-11 newsgroups every couple of months with 5.25" Hitachi SMD's for sale. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 16 14:07:30 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: UNIVAC memory screens web site. In-Reply-To: <199810161521.LAA09023@golden.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Unusual systems wrote: > There is a cute web site (www.netw.com/~drfcline then click on memory > screens) that refer to core memory planes as "memory screens". Perhaps the > word "screens" was used to describe core planes, but I've never seen it used > that way before. Anyway there might be a few of us who have not visited this > site and so now we can. I'd like to know where the rest of the Univac is that they heisted these cards from. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From handyman at sprintmail.com Fri Oct 16 14:14:52 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store References: <36261597.2F18F56D@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: <36279ABE.1F2B@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> > > On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Phil Clayton wrote: > > > > > Here's a good find for ya.. Today at the Local Salvation Army store i > > > saw this huge IBM 5120 console machine on wheels. Its an Auto > > > Diagnostics station. Must weigh 500lbs easy, mounted on wheels with a > > > built in touch screen monitor.. I opened up the side panel on it and saw > > > a CDROM drive, UPS, Some sort of cartridge drive and hard drive.. It had > > > 30 or 40 cdroms (Auto tech data) and all the manuals for it. Looking at > > > the manuals it appears to be an XT type machine. > > > > Did you grab it? If not, do! You can leave the automotive diagnostics > > stuff behind, but the 5120 is the last of the original 5100 line, and the > > machine that followed it was the 5150 (i.e., the PC). Ok, I went back to the local SA. There it still stands in all its glory.. I took a closer look... Its an IBM 5126.. Not a 5120 (Sorry)... And a even closer look reviels its an IBM AT machine.. Store manager say its worth $100.00 to them and has been there 2 weeks now... I offered 20 bucks and he declined, noting the steel case alone is worth that.. Any one want it ? Its in Fort Myers Florida... Weighs an estimated 500lbs.. Nice mono touch screen monitor, CDROM, UPS, and several really heavy duty goodies inside.. About 40 Techinical CD's and several tech manuals on the computer... Personally I would love to play with this machine, all the I/O ports, analog I/O's, touch screen.. Would be lots of fun, but $100.00 is over my fun/gadget budget ... Phil... From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Oct 16 14:04:08 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard Message-ID: <199810162037.QAA10618@gate.usaor.net> A 101 keyboard will not work at all. The special 8-pin plug is there for a reason - If you do not have a Tandy 1000 keyboard, then the keboard will not work. -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 > I have a 1000sx buried under a bunch of other stuff and the KB is different. > In the Tandy 1000 FAQ it says: > II.E.2. Can I replace my old 90-key Tandy keyboard with a 101-key > keyboard? > On the EX and HX, no. On other systems, yes, but it won't work exactly > like a standard 101-key keyboard since the Tandy keyboard BIOS is > different. A special 101-key keyboard made for the 1000's must be used. > See section IV.G. (SL and later systems came with a 101-key keyboard, > and a compatible BIOS.) > > > THROWING the 1000's away?? You ought to b4e ashamed. > > > Landfill for the 90s. Reminds me of all the rusting autoframes scattered across > the country. Can't help but think that coming generations will pay for this > some way. > > ciao larry > lwalker@interlog.com From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Oct 16 14:06:41 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:24 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store Message-ID: <199810162037.QAA10625@gate.usaor.net> The PC/AT was a 5170, not a 5180. -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 > 5168 XT286 > > >5100, IBM Portable > >5110, similar with optional (?) 8" flops > >5120, bigger screen, built-in 8" flops > >5140, Convertible > >5150, PC > >5155, Portable PC > >5160, PC/XT > >5180, PC/AT > > > >Was there a 5130? > > > >-- Doug > > > gene@ehrich > http://www.voicenet.com/~generic > Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From djenner at halcyon.com Fri Oct 16 15:55:02 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Available: Couple more PDP-11 refs Message-ID: <3627B2A6.6418ECFA@halcyon.com> I dug up a couple more spare PDP-11 references. These are both small "paperback" books: MICRO/PDP-11 Handbook, 1983-1984. EB 24944 18/83. Microsystems Handbook (1985). EB 26085-41/85 04 04/43. I'd give priority on a trade for a "recent" (~1985-86) Unibus peripherals handbook (for 11/24, 11/44, 11/84 peripherals). But let me know even if you don't have anything to trade. Dave Jenner djenner@halcyon.com From dcoward at pressstart.com Fri Oct 16 16:07:34 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Analog computer manuals available Message-ID: <19981016134616.093bc097.in@mail.pressstart.com> Someone a while back mention that Heath's manual replacement service no longer carries manuals for the EC-1 computer. On a lark I decided to check if they carry manuals for Heath's original analog computer, the ES-400, introduced in 1956. They do! Here's a picture to refresh your memory. http://www.sou.edu/biology/analog.html#EAC If you went to VCF 2 and joined the tour of the Computer History Center's visual storage, you would have been able to touch one. I got these model numbers out of the 1959 catalog. So here are the model numbers and prices of the manuals that I know that Heathkit has: $35 ES-400 Cabinet and Front Panel $25 ES-201 DC Amplifier (the op-amps on top of the cabinet) $25 ES-100 Initial Condition Power Supply $25 ES-2 Amplifier Power Supply $20 ES-50 Reference Power Supply $20 ES-151 Relay Power Supply I received the last three, a week ago, and was extremely surprised to find that they had sent me original manuals and not copies. They told me that it was not a mistake, they had extra manuals. These 3 1960 manuals look just like new. I'm still searching for the Operations Manual for this computer. ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Oct 16 17:00:01 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: DEC memru cards Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981016170001.2c8f36ec@intellistar.net> I picked up three DEC memory cards at a surplus store. Can anyone tell me what machine they're for and what size they are? They're marked "54-19813-AT" and "ZGO4830455". They have about 78 1 Meg ICs on them. They must be loaded! Joe From aaron at wfi-inc.com Fri Oct 16 16:10:47 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Available: Couple more PDP-11 refs In-Reply-To: <3627B2A6.6418ECFA@halcyon.com> Message-ID: Hi David, I just got an 11/23 from John Lawson and am really desperate for any documentation/reference materials at all. Regards, Aaron On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, David C. Jenner wrote: > I dug up a couple more spare PDP-11 references. > These are both small "paperback" books: > > MICRO/PDP-11 Handbook, 1983-1984. EB 24944 18/83. > Microsystems Handbook (1985). EB 26085-41/85 04 04/43. > > I'd give priority on a trade for a "recent" (~1985-86) Unibus > peripherals handbook (for 11/24, 11/44, 11/84 peripherals). > But let me know even if you don't have anything to trade. > > Dave Jenner > djenner@halcyon.com > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Oct 16 17:16:12 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Pl-1 book Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981016171612.3b1f2826@intellistar.net> I went trift store shopping today and picked a copy of "Problem Solving and the Computer; A Structured Concept with PL/1 (Pl/C)" by Shortt-Wilson. Does anyone need it? Joe From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 16 17:06:04 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Joined Messages In-Reply-To: "Olminkhof" "Joined Messages" (Oct 16, 19:19) References: <004301bdf8e6$1cf61de0$d73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <9810162306.ZM3638@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 16, 19:19, Olminkhof wrote: > Subject: Joined Messages > I am finding an unusual number of inappropriately joined messages. A > Listserv problem? > Does anyone know how to get this fixed? Hmm... I've had this problem from time to time with Pine (a well-known but in some respects very iffy UNIX mailer) and with other mail software based on similar library code (elm, and a new GUI one whose name escapes me). The author of the library made some unwarranted assumptions about what exactly are the rules that govern separation of messages in a mailbox, and the allowed formated for the date, with the result that messages sometimes get stuck together. The author forgot the adage "be forgiving in what you accept and strict in what you transmit". It's my pet hate at the moment :-) Perhaps yuo have a similar problem, either on your local system or your ISP's? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From backofene at hotmail.com Fri Oct 16 17:13:02 1998 From: backofene at hotmail.com (Eileen Backofen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard Message-ID: <19981016221303.3057.qmail@hotmail.com> There was a 101 keyboard sold by Tandy that did work with the old 1000 SXs. It has dip switches that had to be set correctly. I think it was marketed under the name Keyboard 1000 or 2000. Anyway, they were quite expensive (about $100) and we bought a few to keep our old lab going a few more years. Eileen > >A 101 keyboard will not work at all. The special 8-pin plug is there for a >reason - If you do not have a Tandy 1000 keyboard, then the keboard will >not work. >-- > -Jason >(roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#-1730318 > >> I have a 1000sx buried under a bunch of other stuff and the KB is >different. >> In the Tandy 1000 FAQ it says: >> II.E.2. Can I replace my old 90-key Tandy keyboard with a 101-key >> keyboard? >> On the EX and HX, no. On other systems, yes, but it won't work >exactly >> like a standard 101-key keyboard since the Tandy keyboard BIOS is >> different. A special 101-key keyboard made for the 1000's must be >used. >> See section IV.G. (SL and later systems came with a 101-key >keyboard, >> and a compatible BIOS.) >> >> > THROWING the 1000's away?? You ought to b4e ashamed. >> > >> Landfill for the 90s. Reminds me of all the rusting autoframes scattered >across >> the country. Can't help but think that coming generations will pay for >this >> some way. >> >> ciao larry >> lwalker@interlog.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From backofene at hotmail.com Fri Oct 16 17:23:48 1998 From: backofene at hotmail.com (Eileen Backofen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Tandys gone/Apples anyone? Message-ID: <19981016222349.14063.qmail@hotmail.com> Wow, I didn't expect this much help getting rid of our "trash". Basically, there's nothing much unique here. Just some Apple LCs (bottom of the line) circa 1990 no fancy add ons, some Apple IIGSes, extra drives, monitors, Imagewriter printers. I'll check on Monday to see how many of each are in the store room. Perhaps, next Saturday morning we can clear the room. Write to me at: backofene@hotmail.com (not to the list) if you're interested and I will send you directions. Eileen > >We're located in northern VA, 7 miles from DC. The challenge is to get >the old stuff in the hands of those who want it so it doesn't wind up in >landfills. >We used to have "yard sales" to clear out the old stuff, but I got tired >of answering questions/complaints months later from people who bought an >entire system for $10, so eventually we just set the stuff out and let >any interested people take it away. With our student population >increasing, we're using every available space as classrooms. >Write me at backofene@hotmail.com if you want to help us "take out the >trash". > >Eileen > > >> >>> I checked the storeroom at school today to discover that all the old >>> Tandy equipment (which had collected dust there for 2 years) has been >>> disposed of. Not even a keyboard left. All I could find is an >>> assortment of Apple II GSes, drives, Imagewriters etc & a few old Mac >>> LCs. >> >>Where was this at? I wouldn't mind getting a IIgs setup but don't want >to >>pay a lot of shipping since I can probably find them locally >eventually. >> >> >>-- >> _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM >ecloud@goodnet.com >> (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: >http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud >> __) | | >\__________________________________________________________________ >>* Java * card-carrying member of the procrastinati * ham radio * Linux >* >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dcoward at pressstart.com Fri Oct 16 17:27:26 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: PROM Burner Message-ID: <19981016150609.0984e3c8.in@mail.pressstart.com> Joe said: > DataI/O is the lousy about supporting the older equipment. I have a >model 29 and a 2B module. I do have instructions for the 29 but not for >the module. The 29 can be programmed from a computer by simple data >transfer via Rs-232. Or you can use the keypad to enter all the data or to >modify the data. BUT you need the instructions for the module since they >include the code numbers used to identify the various EPROMS to the >programmer. Without those codes the programmer is useless. I can't believe all of the hammering that Data I/O is taking on this list. When I got my series 22 I when right to the Obsolete Programmer Support section of Data I/Os site to get the list of code for it. They are right there!! http://www.dataio.com/support/obsolete.html or their FTP site ftp://ftp.data-io.com/dataio/ ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Oct 16 17:34:55 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: PROM Burner Message-ID: That reminds me, does anyone have a burner that can both read & program 16-pin 256x4 PROMs? Kai -----Original Message----- From: Doug Coward [mailto:dcoward@pressstart.com] Sent: Friday, October 16, 1998 3:27 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: PROM Burner Joe said: > DataI/O is the lousy about supporting the older equipment. I have a >model 29 and a 2B module. I do have instructions for the 29 but not for >the module. The 29 can be programmed from a computer by simple data >transfer via Rs-232. Or you can use the keypad to enter all the data or to >modify the data. BUT you need the instructions for the module since they >include the code numbers used to identify the various EPROMS to the >programmer. Without those codes the programmer is useless. I can't believe all of the hammering that Data I/O is taking on this list. When I got my series 22 I when right to the Obsolete Programmer Support section of Data I/Os site to get the list of code for it. They are right there!! http://www.dataio.com/support/obsolete.html or their FTP site ftp://ftp.data-io.com/dataio/ ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Oct 16 17:38:21 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Pl-1 book In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981016171612.3b1f2826@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Oct 16, 98 05:16:12 pm Message-ID: <199810162238.PAA06408@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi: > the Computer; A Structured Concept with PL/1 (Pl/C)" by Shortt-Wilson. ^^^^ For those who care, PL/I was the "correct" nomenclature! ^ Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 16 14:33:38 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: mucho Altairs on eBay In-Reply-To: from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Oct 16, 98 10:19:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 873 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981016/c575102c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 16 14:29:49 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: UNIVAC memory screens web site. In-Reply-To: <199810161521.LAA09023@golden.net> from "Unusual systems" at Oct 16, 98 11:21:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 429 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981016/f38038f2/attachment.ksh From cdrmool at interlog.com Fri Oct 16 17:55:07 1998 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (cdrmool@interlog.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Message-ID: I just grabbed a Rainbow out of the garbage with the garbage truck literally meters away from getting it. After major industrial cleanup (removing the half gallon of house paint from it and the cigarette goo), Its up and running mostly. It came with the MS-Dos 2.05 OS, some manuals, and thats it. I know diddly squat about this beast (other than the legend of it possessing two CPU's) and CP/M. So this is a very basic question. When I get to the menu at boot up it recognizes a: and b: (though a: is a bit wonky). It will also respond to W which tells me that there are two cp/m partitions: e: and f: however, when I try to go to them I get a "message 23 - Non-System Diskette". I seem to be missing the manual with numbered error messages. I'm assuming that this means that there is a hard drive problem. However, it is recognizing the partitions so something is being read. I also don't have the CP/M diskette, only the DOS. This DOS doesn't have FDISK so I can't look at the partitions via an OS I know well (though I could do it through debug but I'm being lazy here), and when I bit the bullet and tried to format the hard drive it keeps telling me to stick in the diskette to format. Any help would be appreciated otherwise I'll do a low level format on the segate drive and pray to the appropriate dieties. Colan From dcoward at pressstart.com Fri Oct 16 18:02:09 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Analog computer manuals available Message-ID: <19981016154052.09a4b003.in@mail.pressstart.com> Sorry, I forgot to give the number of the Heath manual replacement service. It's (616) 925-5899. If you ever lose the number, it's available on Heath's site at http://www.heathkit.com/. ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Oct 16 18:45:53 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sethm@loomcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Ultrix installation media Message-ID: <199810162345.QAA29681@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 865 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981016/73f21477/attachment.ksh From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Oct 16 15:38:17 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard In-Reply-To: <199810161053.AA10602@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810170042.UAA04538@smtp.interlog.com> On 16 Oct 98 at 6:53, Allison J Parent wrote: > < I think only the CoCos could use OS9 > > Coco's were not even intel powered. The CPU was the 6809, they were > plastic cased and bore no resembelence to the Tandy 1000(series) or > 2000(series). > > Coco's ran a resident basic and if you had a disk interface/drive OS9 > was available. > > Allison > Yep, I have the 3 models of CoCo as well as the 1000SX. I was commenting on Russ Blakeman's msg. I'm still looking for the interface and drives so I can use my m.2 and m.3 to check out OS9. I don't think m.1 can use it. There seems to be a respectable amount of software that supports OS9. ISTR also that there were other platforms that used it . Any idea what they were ? ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 16 19:52:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard In-Reply-To: <199810170042.UAA04538@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Oct 16, 98 08:38:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1409 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981017/15ca8372/attachment.ksh From aaron at wfi-inc.com Fri Oct 16 20:04:45 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: RX50's on a PC? Message-ID: Has anyone tried wiring an 8" RX52 floppy straight to a modern PC controller? I did the best I know how, and I *appear* to have a semi-functioning device attached. Trying to read/format the disk from Linux causes the drive to access; however, trying to format (even with PUTR under MsDOS) gives me a verification error and an error about Track 0. Does this sound more like a media error? The disks (Dysan 101/1) appear to be in fine condition, having been stored in rigid notebooks in plastic sleeves for the last 10 years or so in a "media-friendly" environment. There are also lifecycle logs in the sleves, which indicate that they were initialized and only written to once. I've been digging around, trying to get enough information to attempt to set up Forth on my OS-less 11/23, but I don't have another functioning system to work with (the chicken and the egg). Am I dreaming that I'm going to be able to get anything accomplished with an emulator and a pair of 8" floppys Frankensteined to my PC? On a similar note, does anyone happen to have a Compaticard for trade/sale? Aaron From rws at ais.net Fri Oct 16 21:52:50 1998 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: TRS 80's available free Message-ID: <199810170252.VAA19139@eagle.ais.net> If anyone's looking for some TRS-80's please contact this guy directly. His ISP comes back as being in SC- figure freight accordingly. ----- Forwarded message from Oliver Murray ----- I have three TRS-80 computers with some software free to a good home, someone who will put them to a good use. 1. model 1 working 1. model 111 working 1 model 4p not working? +assorted software If you can use or know of someone who would like these for collector's items, they are free, make arrangements to have shipped or pick up. omurray@infoave.net -- Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 16 22:22:13 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard Message-ID: <199810170322.AA00251@world.std.com> < use my m.2 and m.3 to check out OS9. I don't think m.1 can use it. There < to be a respectable amount of software that supports OS9. < ISTR also that there were other platforms that used it . Any idea what < were ? SWTP and other SS50 bus machine with 6809s in them. there was a 6809 S100 CPU that could run it. Generally speaking Moto based systems were not on my hot list back then (there was some nice stuff though!). The 6809 however did catch my eye as a pretty decent 8bit bus cpu from moto. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 16 22:22:19 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: RX50's on a PC? Message-ID: <199810170322.AA00340@world.std.com> < Has anyone tried wiring an 8" RX52 floppy straight to a modern PC < controller? I did the best I know how, and I *appear* to have a What is an RX52 floppy? I'll presume you mean the rather large dual drive RX02. The DEC 8" floppies are RX01/2 and have their own internal controller. That would make RX01 or 02 disk system very hard to wire to a PC floppy controller, like near impossible. FYI: The DEC RX02 DD format is not readable by any standard floppy controller chip. RX01 however is standard 128 bytes IBM softsector format. RX50 drives are fairly easy to wire to a PC it is however single sided and dual drive with one spindle. The later item will cause all mannor of errors if the driver doesn't internally know the two drives have a common positioner. However FD55s jumperd for slow spindle and only using one side work better! < On a similar note, does anyone happen to have a Compaticard for < trade/sale? Compaticard can only read RX01. Allison From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 16 22:44:54 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > There was a 6809 card for the Apple ][, for example. It came in 2 > versions. One came with a modified P-system disk set and essentially > accelerated pascal programs. The other had a boot ROM on it and came with > OS-9. Alas I only have the first version. Speaking of which, I just picked one up recently and was pretty excited about it. I don't recall any details about it, particularly if it had a ROM on it, but I want to play with it and see if I can get it working. I suppose getting the p-system boot disks for it would be a good start (providing its the same card). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From aaron at wfi-inc.com Fri Oct 16 23:07:02 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: RX50's on a PC? In-Reply-To: <199810170322.AA00340@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > What is an RX52 floppy? I'll presume you mean the rather large dual > drive RX02. The DEC 8" floppies are RX01/2 and have their own internal > controller. That would make RX01 or 02 disk system very hard to wire > to a PC floppy controller, like near impossible. Actually, I guess I meant RX50. When I was using PUTR, it refers to the DS, DD drive as RX52 (Drives are Mitsubishi 2896's, 1.6meg). > RX50 drives are fairly easy to wire to a PC it is however single sided > and dual drive with one spindle. The later item will cause all mannor > of errors if the driver doesn't internally know the two drives have a > common positioner. However FD55s jumperd for slow spindle and only > using one side work better! Do you have any additional suggestions, now that I've got my drives straight? I took my wiring cues from the CPM faq, but I don't have much info beyond the pinouts. I'll go ahead and ask, since I'm already typing, does anyone have jumper/configuration information for the drives handy? Of course I'll go on a hunt as soon as I hit "send"... From handyman at sprintmail.com Fri Oct 16 11:44:41 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store References: <199810162037.QAA10625@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <362777F9.DD40B978@sprintmail.com> Jason Willgruber wrote: > The PC/AT was a 5170, not a 5180. > -- > -Jason > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#-1730318 > > > 5168 XT286 > > > > >5100, IBM Portable > > >5110, similar with optional (?) 8" flops > > >5120, bigger screen, built-in 8" flops > > >5140, Convertible > > >5150, PC > > >5155, Portable PC > > >5160, PC/XT > > >5180, PC/AT > > > > > >Was there a 5130? > > > > > >-- Doug This machine is an IBM 5126 and it is an AT (286) class machine, read my last post again its an Automobile Analyzer, not a desktop computer.. I didn;t make the number up, its on a metal ID tag sticker on the side of this unit, : Says "IBM 5126" I checked it out very closely.. Phil.. From handyman at sprintmail.com Fri Oct 16 11:47:28 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard References: <199810162037.QAA10618@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <362778A0.7335860E@sprintmail.com> Jason Willgruber wrote: > A 101 keyboard will not work at all. The special 8-pin plug is there for a > reason - If you do not have a Tandy 1000 keyboard, then the keboard will > not work. > -- > -Jason > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#-1730318 > > > I have a 1000sx buried under a bunch of other stuff and the KB is > different. > > In the Tandy 1000 FAQ it says: > > II.E.2. Can I replace my old 90-key Tandy keyboard with a 101-key > > keyboard? > > On the EX and HX, no. On other systems, yes, but it won't work > exactly > > like a standard 101-key keyboard since the Tandy keyboard BIOS is > > different. A special 101-key keyboard made for the 1000's must be > used. > > See section IV.G. (SL and later systems came with a 101-key > keyboard, > > and a compatible BIOS.) > > > > > THROWING the 1000's away?? You ought to b4e ashamed. > > > > > Landfill for the 90s. Reminds me of all the rusting autoframes scattered > across > > the country. Can't help but think that coming generations will pay for > this > > some way. > > > > ciao larry > > lwalker@interlog.com I have a special adaptor that will allow you to use a standard 101 keyboard with the old Tandy. That little sucker cost about 50 bucks in the 80's.. Phil... From handyman at sprintmail.com Fri Oct 16 12:09:55 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard References: <199810162037.QAA10618@gate.usaor.net> <362778A0.7335860E@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: <36277DE3.C5E27E3E@sprintmail.com> Phil Clayton wrote: > Jason Willgruber wrote: > > > A 101 keyboard will not work at all. The special 8-pin plug is there for a > > reason - If you do not have a Tandy 1000 keyboard, then the keboard will > > not work. > > > I have a special adaptor that will allow you to use a standard 101 keyboard > with the old Tandy. > Phil... I you are really interested in using a standard 10 keyboard with your tandy ,, I could check my adaptor box out closer and possibly tell you how to make one. I don't think there are any real electrical changes , just rewiring the pinouts.. Let me know, I will open the adaptor box up and tell you whats inside it if you are serious.. Phil.... From aaron at wfi-inc.com Fri Oct 16 23:58:21 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: RX50's on a PC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just found the RX50 faq in the sunsite pdp-8 section, so I may have found all the answers I need...I'll post my results later... thanks for the help so far, Aaron From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 17 00:30:27 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <9810160802.ZM3079@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's" (Oct 15, 18:17) "Zane H. Healy" Message-ID: >> BTW what are the two extra jumpers on the later revision card? > >Which jumopers? If you look straight down, with the handles at the top, the card with the 23-243E5 and 23-244E5 ROMs has a pair of jumpers to to the right of the ROMs. These aren't on the cards I've got with the 23-216E5 and 23-217E5 ROMs, nor are they on the documentation that Bruce Lane provided last weekend. >If your ROMs don't support RX33s, there are two problems that may prevent >the RQDX seeing the drives as usable. The card with the later ROMs will in fact support my home made RX33's. I pulled all the cards out of the chassis tonite and stuck in a /23+ some RAM and the late model RQDX3, and was able to boot off of floppy. I was also able to boot off of the RX50 drive. However, no matter what I try I can't get them to work when the ESDI controller is in place. On that note I'm giving up on this line of attack at least for the time being. Thanks to the information that Megan and Tim provided on partitioning a drive I've just finished that. I took Tim's advice and went with the hard partitioning. Assuming I can find enough time tomorrow I will bring the RL02 drive into the house, play swap the RLV12 and transfer everything from the one system to the other that way. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au Sat Oct 17 11:55:42 1998 From: karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au (Karl Maftoum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Sparc Supply Schematics Message-ID: I have a friend who has 6 Sparc SLC's with either dud power supplies or monitor sync problems, is the schematics for the power supplies available easily? Not having looked at them myself, I would expect that they are a standard SWPS, also would anyone know the voltages and pinouts for a sparc supply, it is probably possible to mod another kind of supply to fit :) Thanks as always :) Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Karl Maftoum Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia Email: k.maftoum@student.canberra.edu.au From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Oct 17 04:24:27 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's" (Oct 16, 22:30) References: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's" (Oct 15 18:17) "Zane H. Healy" Message-ID: <9810171024.ZM4034@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 16, 22:30, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Subject: Re: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's > >> BTW what are the two extra jumpers on the later revision card? > > > >Which jumopers? > > If you look straight down, with the handles at the top, the card with the > 23-243E5 and 23-244E5 ROMs has a pair of jumpers to to the right of the > ROMs. These aren't on the cards I've got with the 23-216E5 and 23-217E5 > ROMs, nor are they on the documentation that Bruce Lane provided last > weekend. Hmmm... Not shown in my RQDX3 manual, nor on any of the microfiche I have. At first I thought you might mean W23 or W12/W13, but they're on the left. I suspect they're some factory test setting. If I have the time, I'll pull one of my RQDX3s this weekend and have a look -- though just looking at them may not do much good, of course! > The card with the later ROMs will in fact support my home made RX33's. Sounds like all the jumpers (except possibly W23) are set up right, then :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From transit at primenet.com Sat Oct 17 09:02:52 1998 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: TRS Model 100 needed In-Reply-To: <199810170252.VAA19139@eagle.ais.net> Message-ID: How much should a working TRS Model 100 laptop computer cost? (I'm thinking of getting one for a portable amateur packet setup)? Thanks! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 17 09:15:34 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's Message-ID: <981017101534.202000a7@trailing-edge.com> >However, no matter what I try I can't get them (RX33's) to work when the ESDI >controller is in place. On that note I'm giving up on this line of attack >at least for the time being. It sounds to me like you've got a backplane DMA continuity grant problem. What cards are in the backplane? What slots are they in? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sat Oct 17 09:48:12 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Morrow Laptop ID Message-ID: <000501bdf9dd$2a4fbf80$d73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I have found a Morrow laptop without any obvious model identification. While it is something of a wreck, I would at least like to know what it is. I've never seen a Morrow in Australia before. It is black, rather cheaply made with lots of wiring mods to the board. The CPU is an 80C86 The board has a 1984 copyright and a sticker "PCT 6065" It is unusual in that it opens with the keyboard flipping forward and the bulk of the machine with the small LCD type screen standing up. It is however quite stable like this. The word "Morrow" is embossed on the case and there is a nameplate with little on it but "Morrow Designs" and an indecipherable serial number. It has 2 X 5.25" floppys only and a battery compartment. This example obviously stopped working a long time ago and someone has disassembled it leaving all the cables disconnected and all the screws missing. Anyone recognise this? Hans Olminkhof From gram at cnct.com Fri Oct 16 22:32:01 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard References: <199810170042.UAA04538@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <36280FB1.CF468BC1@cnct.com> Lawrence Walker wrote: > > On 16 Oct 98 at 6:53, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > < I think only the CoCos could use OS9 > > > > Coco's were not even intel powered. The CPU was the 6809, they were > > plastic cased and bore no resembelence to the Tandy 1000(series) or > > 2000(series). > > > > Coco's ran a resident basic and if you had a disk interface/drive OS9 > > was available. > > > > Allison > > > Yep, I have the 3 models of CoCo as well as the 1000SX. I was commenting on > Russ Blakeman's msg. I'm still looking for the interface and drives so I can > use my m.2 and m.3 to check out OS9. I don't think m.1 can use it. There seems > to be a respectable amount of software that supports OS9. > ISTR also that there were other platforms that used it . Any idea what they > were ? OS-9 Level One ran on all sorts of MC6809 boxes, from SWTPC on. There were a number of hardware vendors that specialised in it, one of the most notable being Gimix -- very nice cubes before the NeXt. OS-9 Level Two requires at least 128k on the Color Computer I don't know the requirements on other hardware. I've never run OSK (OS-9 68000), though I know there were ports to Amiga and Atari ST hardware among others. The Intel port I know little about. The Philips "standalone" CDROM systems that hook to a television have a rommed OS-9 system embedded. The newsgroup comp.os.os9 is still alive, though I have to browse it through Dejanews, my ISP's newsfeed being worse than ever. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From paulk at microsoft.com Sat Oct 17 11:22:06 1998 From: paulk at microsoft.com (Paul Kearns) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Ultrix installation media Message-ID: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B5086FA6DE@RED-MSG-45> I've got Ultrix RISC 4.4 and two out of the three product library disks on CDROM. They're what I used to install my DS5000's. I'm not sure if 4.4 will run on a 3100 or not, but I'd be glad to copy these for you if you like. Paul Kearns paulk@microsoft.com > ---------- > From: sethm@loomcom.com[SMTP:sethm@loomcom.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Friday, October 16, 1998 4:45 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Ultrix installation media > > > I just picked up a pair of DECstation 3100's. Both of them are in > perfect working order, apart from their drives being quite severely > dead (they won't spin up, though they give it the old college try). > > Supposedly (and quite believably), the most recent version of > NetBSD/pmax is quite a bit nicer and better performing than Ultrix > ever was, but for historical and nostalgic reasons, I was really > hoping to be able to run Ultrix 4.2a on these guys. > > Does anyone have Ultrix 4.2a distribution media? Alas, I do not have > a TK50 drive; I know that was the usual distribution method, but I'm > hoping it was also available on CDROM. For some horribly sick reason > I miss Ultrix, and it would be nice to play with again. > > -Seth > -- > "The crux of the biscuit Seth J. Morabito > is the apostrophe." - Frank Zappa sethm@loomcom.com > From marvin at rain.org Sat Oct 17 11:22:25 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: TRS Model 100 needed References: Message-ID: <3628C441.15EA9F9D@rain.org> Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > How much should a working TRS Model 100 laptop computer cost? (I'm > thinking of getting one for a portable amateur packet setup)? The last three I picked up were in about the $10 or so range (a bit hard to say since I bought them in a lot.) While I haven't heard of anyone using them for packet yet, the NEC 8201A is similar to the Model 100 and I frequently see them at the TRW swap meet in the $25 range. The last one I bought was $50, but it came in the original box, etc. It seems like most of the early battery operated portables can be used for packet rather successfully. Assuming size is an issue, I have seen several packet setups using the HP 95SX (?) palmtop computer ... and they are certainly portable "). From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 17 11:57:50 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: TRS Model 100 needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > How much should a working TRS Model 100 laptop computer cost? (I'm > thinking of getting one for a portable amateur packet setup)? I've paid anywhere from $10 to $40. I don't think you should pay any more than $50 for a setup that includes a case and manual. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Oct 17 11:51:23 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store Message-ID: <199810171702.NAA24969@gate.usaor.net> I know that. The post that I was correcting was the one with the list of numbers and what computer they were for: > > 5168 XT286 > > > > >5100, IBM Portable > > >5110, similar with optional (?) 8" flops > > >5120, bigger screen, built-in 8" flops > > >5140, Convertible > > >5150, PC > > >5155, Portable PC > > >5160, PC/XT > > >5180, PC/AT Notice that the PC/AT is listed as a 5180, not 5170. -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Phil Clayton > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store > Date: Friday, October 16, 1998 12:44 PM > > > This machine is an IBM 5126 and it is an AT (286) class machine, read my > last post again its an Automobile Analyzer, not a desktop computer.. I > didn;t make the number up, its on a metal ID tag sticker on the side of > this unit, : Says "IBM 5126" I checked it out very closely.. > > Phil.. > From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Oct 17 11:53:09 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard Message-ID: <199810171702.NAA24975@gate.usaor.net> I forget who wanted to hook up a 101 keyboard to a 1000, but here's your chance to do it: -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Phil Clayton > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Tandy Keyboard > Date: Friday, October 16, 1998 1:09 PM > > I you are really interested in using a standard 10 keyboard with your tandy ,, I > could check my adaptor box out closer and possibly tell you how to make one. I > don't think there are any real electrical changes , just rewiring the pinouts.. > Let me know, I will open the adaptor box up and tell you whats inside it if you > are serious.. > Phil.... > > From kyrrin at jps.net Sat Oct 17 13:09:25 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Heath H89 -- Complete System Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981017110925.009525d0@mail.jps.net> Well, dang it... I'm running out of room, and I really don't have the time that this gorgeous old beastie deserves, so.... Here's what I've got. A complete H89 system as follows. System unit with internal FD -- no screen burn that I can see, very clean. External dual FD. (all FD's are 5.25" hard-sectored 40 TPI). Cassette I/O board. OkiData Microline 82 series printer. IBM "Plug-and-Play" EPROM kit for the OkiData, something about 'Block Graphics.' Extra printer ribbon, still in the shrink wrap. Spare chips: 4116-25, 74S132, and 74LS186. PROMs (Heath/Zenith part numbers on the labels): 2 ea. 444-43 EPROMs (a pair of 2716's, also with H-Z part numbers on the labels): 444-40 That's the hardware. About the only thing that's missing (God only knows why) are the hardware manuals. I do have the following software for it, with manuals. CP/M-80, Ver. 2.2, Heath-Zenith tagged. 'Ed-a-Sketch' graphics editor. 'Reach' modem and file transfer program. PIE 1.5 full-screen editor. HUG Utilities and BASIC-E disks. NewWord Word Processor, ver. 2.17 JRT Pascal, V. 3.0. Space Odyssey 1 Microsoft BASIC Compiler on original 8" diskette, ver. 7032.530 Spare diskettes (at least a box worth). Please to make me an offer on the whole schmeer! I know I can trust you lot to make it a fair one. It would probably be best if said offer came from someone local (Seattle, Portland, etc.). I can ship the stuff, but that could get costly even with UPS Ground. Some of the units are pretty heavy! Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at jps.net Sat Oct 17 13:13:07 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: DECMate stuff Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981017111307.00956100@mail.jps.net> As if the H89 wasn't enough, I've also got the following available on origanal DEC diskettes. DM/WPS System Diskette, V2.0 DM/WPS Utility Diskette, V2.0 Spelling, (c) Houghton Mifflin, V2.0 CBI - Intro to WPS - Drive 0 CBI - Intro to WPS - Drive 1 And, finally, I have a DECMate III APU board in pretty darn good shape. I'd like to move both the diskettes and the card as a set, though I will consider selling the disk set in one lot and the card in another. As with the H89 -- Make me an offer! Shipping would be cheap for these. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 17 13:46:29 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Morrow Laptop ID In-Reply-To: <000501bdf9dd$2a4fbf80$d73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Olminkhof wrote: > I have found a Morrow laptop without any obvious model identification. > While it is something of a wreck, I would at least like to know what it is. > I've never seen a Morrow in Australia before. This is the Morrow Pivot Portable, aka Zenith , aka Osborne 3. It is 8086-based, MS-DOS compatible. It comes with built-in applications like you would see on today's PDA. This computer was in fact an early attempt at a PDA. When you fire it up, you see a world map. I forget the function of the map (its been a while since I played with mine) but presumably its to choose timezones and local dialing codes. It also has a calendar, I believe something like a scheduler, a calculator, etc. all in graphics windows. There is an option to then boot to DOS, and you would stick your DOS floppy into one of the drives. You may be able to get the one you have working as long as there are no missing ROMs or anything. I could help you piece it all back together again in a few weeks when I've got plenty of free time. You'd just need to document everything that's hanging loose or missing, and a GIF would help too. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Oct 17 14:10:01 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <199810171910.MAA15827@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi All: I'm in Ottawa, and on my obligatory trip to the computer salvage place, picked up an M8190 Unibus 11/84 card. It's a 4-finger LSI board, connectors for console and likely a cabinet kit of some sort. I'd like to try this board, my questions are: 1. Any other support boards needed, or will this board run standalone, presuming available RAM? 2. What kind of backplane is required? I have an 11/45 backplane but this wouldn't do because of the extensive point-to-point wiring for the CPU cards, etc. 3. Any way to run this is the "straight through" section of the Unibus that exists in the high slot numbers of older Unibus' like the 11/45? 4. Is anybody else using this card successfully? Thanks in advance, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Oct 17 14:13:36 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Need Info: Unibus Ethernet Card, M7792 Message-ID: <199810171913.MAA16403@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Again All: In the same trip to the scrap place I bought an M7792 DEUNA card. From the DEC Field Guide it's unclear whether this card is usable by itself, or needs a companion card M7793, to bring Ethernet connectivity to a Unibus machine. Anybosy know anything further? I'd like to have Ethernet on my 11/45 once I solve its (probable) power supply problem. Thanks, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From aaron at wfi-inc.com Sat Oct 17 14:14:40 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Anyone need a duodisk? Message-ID: I picked up an Apple duodisk this morning for $1, unknown condition. Anyone want it? Aaron From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 17 14:25:46 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <981017152546.202000a5@trailing-edge.com> >I'm in Ottawa, and on my obligatory trip to the computer salvage place, >picked up an M8190 Unibus 11/84 card. How do you know that you've got an 11/84 "capable" 11/84? There were many revisions: A M8190 without any suffixes is a 15 MHz (11/73) CPU with an unusable socket for the FPJ11 floating point processor. A M8190-AB is a 15 MHz (11/73) CPU with "warm floating point", but *will* accept the FPJ11 as an option. A M8190-AC is still a 15 MHz (11/73) CPU, with a FPJ11 factory installed. A M8190-AD is a 18 MHz (11/83 or 11/84) CPU with "warm floating point", taking the FPJ11 as an option. A M8190-AE is a 18 MHz (11/83 or 11/84) CPU with the FPJ11 factory installed. Even the above suffixes don't actually pinpoint the exact revision of the CPU with respect to FPJ11 bugs, but they serve as a starting point. To further complicate matters, within digital the CPU is identified differently based on whether it has PMI memory installed or not. (And, of course, it matters whether the PMI comes before or after the CPU in the backplane!) So, for example, you may find a 18 MHz CPU with non-PMI memory called a 11/73, but with PMI memory it's called a 11/83. An 11/84 is a 18MHz KDJ11-B with PMI memory and a KTJ11-B Unibus adapter tacked on. I'm pretty sure the M8190 ROM's are the same whether it's to be used as a 11/84 or an 11/83, and that the Unibus boot ROM functionality is added in the KTJ11-B, which somehow coordinates these issues with the CPU. (It's explained in the KTJ11-B processor handbook, but I never read through it all without falling asleep.) To a large extent, all this confusion is caused by the desire for folks to say "this machine is a 11/x3" where x is 7 or 8. If you really insist on the official classifications, you have to read three of the Micronotes: uNote 25: FPJ11, KDJ11-A compatibility uNote 30: PMI on KDJ11-B and MSV11-J uNote 39: KDJ11-A and -B differences. The above micronotes - and many more - available from: http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/micronotes/numerical/ >1. Any other support boards needed, or will this board run standalone, >presuming available RAM? If, indeed, you have the 11/84 capable version, you'll also need the KDJ11-B and the 11/84 backplane, along with PMI memory, to have a real 11/84 CPU. >4. Is anybody else using this card successfully? I've got several in use as "11/73B"'s. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 17 14:27:03 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Need Info: Unibus Ethernet Card, M7792 Message-ID: <981017152703.202000a5@trailing-edge.com> >In the same trip to the scrap place I bought an M7792 DEUNA card. From the >DEC Field Guide it's unclear whether this card is usable by itself, or >needs a companion card M7793, to bring Ethernet connectivity to a Unibus >machine. You also need the M7793, in addition to a DEUNA cab kit. If you get a chance, grab the DELUA instead - it's a single-board Unibus Ethernet adapter. Tim. From mtapley at swri.edu Sat Oct 17 10:37:52 1998 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Finds still available in MD In-Reply-To: <199810140702.AAA14780@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: All, I spotted the following at the Village Thrift Store in Laurel, Maryland (on the north side of 198 about a mile west of the Baltimore-Washington parkway). I was travelling and couldn't pick them up, but one of you may want to take advantage of them. TI-99/4a. In box. The box was bent and crushed a bit but all there. The unit looked to be in good shape. There was packing materials, manuals, power supply, rf modulator, speech synth module. It was the silver version. I didn't test it, but nobody would take that much care with packing everything back up if it weren't working. I think the tag said $12.90. I sort of wish I'd grabbed this. Mac Plus: with KB, no mouse. Security attach point on back. System unit powered up nominally, but I just tested the main unit, not the KB (no boot floppy, no HD). PS/2 looking thing but narrower and with a montor attached. Didn't look at this much. Assorted 386 etc. boxes. Hope that helps someone! - Mark From rax at warbaby.com Sat Oct 17 15:46:05 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: RIP Jon Postel Message-ID: October 17, 1998 I REMEMBER IANA Vint Cerf A long time ago, in a network, far far away, a great adventure took place Out of the chaos of new ideas for communication, the experiments, the tentative designs, and crucible of testing, there emerged a cornucopia of networks. Beginning with the ARPANET, an endless stream of networks evolved, and ultimately were interlinked to become the Internet. Someone had to keep track of all the protocols, the identifiers, networks and addresses and ultimately the names of all the things in the networked universe. And someone had to keep track of all the information that erupted with volcanic force from the intensity of the debates and discussions and endless invention that has continued unabated for 30 years. That someone was Jonathan B. Postel, our Internet Assigned Numbers Authority, friend, engineer, confidant, leader, icon, and now, first of the giants to depart from our midst. Jon, our beloved IANA, is gone. Even as I write these words I cannot quite grasp this stark fact. We had almost lost him once before in 1991. Surely we knew he was at risk as are we all. But he had been our rock, the foundation on which our every web search and email was built, always there to mediate the random dispute, to remind us when our documentation did not do justice to its subject, to make difficult decisions with apparent ease, and to consult when careful consideration was needed. We will survive our loss and we will remember. He has left a monumental legacy for all Internauts to contemplate. Steadfast service for decades, moving when others seemed paralyzed, always finding the right course in a complex minefield of technical and sometimes political obstacles. Jon and I went to the same high school, Van Nuys High, in the San Fernando Valley north of Los Angeles. But we were in different classes and I really didn?t know him then. Our real meeting came at UCLA when we became a part of a group of graduate students working for Prof. Leonard Kleinrock on the ARPANET project. Steve Crocker was another of the Van Nuys crowd who was part of the team and led the development of the first host-host protocols for the ARPANET. When Steve invented the idea of the Request for Comments series, Jon became the instant editor. When we needed to keep track of all the hosts and protocol identifiers, Jon volunteered to be the Numbers Czar and later the IANA once the Internet was in place. Jon was a founding member of the Internet Architecture Board and served continuously from its founding to the present. He was the FIRST individual member of the Internet Society I know, because he and Steve Wolff raced to see who could fill out the application forms and make payment first and Jon won. He served as a trustee of the Internet Society. He was the custodian of the .US domain, a founder of the Los Nettos Internet service, and, by the way, managed the networking research division of USC Information Sciences Institute. Jon loved the outdoors. I know he used to enjoy backpacking in the high Sierras around Yosemite. Bearded and sandaled, Jon was our resident hippie-patriarch at UCLA. He was a private person but fully capable of engaging photon torpedoes and going to battle stations in a good engineering argument. And he could be stubborn beyond all expectation. He could have outwaited the Sphinx in a staring contest, I think. Jon inspired loyalty and steadfast devotion among his friends and his colleagues. For me, he personified the words ?selfless service.? For nearly 30 years, Jon has served us all, taken little in return, indeed sometimes receiving abuse when he should have received our deepest appreciation. It was particularly gratifying at the last Internet Society meeting in Geneva to see Jon receive the Silver Medal of the International Telecommunications Union. It is an award generally reserved for Heads of State but I can think of no one more deserving of global recognition for his contributions. While it seems almost impossible to avoid feeling an enormous sense of loss, as if a yawning gap in our networked universe had opened up and swallowed our friend, I must tell you that I am comforted as I contemplate what Jon has wrought. He leaves a legacy of edited documents that tell our collective Internet story, including not only the technical but also the poetic and whimsical as well. He completed the incorporation of a successor to his service as IANA and leaves a lasting legacy of service to the community in that role. His memory is rich and vibrant and will not fade from our collective consciousness. ?What would Jon have done?? we will think, as we wrestle in the days ahead with the problems Jon kept so well tamed for so many years. There will almost surely be many memorials to Jon?s monumental service to the Internet Community. As current chairman of the Internet Society, I pledge to establish an award in Jon?s name to recognize long-standing service to the community, the Jonathan B. Postel Service Award, which is awarded to Jon posthumously as its first recipient. If Jon were here, I am sure he would urge us not to mourn his passing but to celebrate his life and his contributions. He would remind us that there is still much work to be done and that we now have the responsibility and the opportunity to do our part. I doubt that anyone could possibly duplicate his record, but it stands as a measure of one man?s astonishing contribution to a community he knew and loved. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Oct 17 14:41:23 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:25 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 In-Reply-To: <981017152546.202000a5@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 17, 98 03:25:46 pm Message-ID: <199810171941.MAA22930@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Tim: Thanks. You're a wealth of info as always. I'd read the field guide, but I agree there seems to be considerable variety in the boards. My board says simply "M8190", the etching says "M8190", part number is "5016017-01-D1-P3", etch also says "KDJ11-B CPU", there are 3x 28-pin ROM sockets on the left hand side, 1x 40-pin on the top right, all empty. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Oct 17 14:47:37 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Need Info: Unibus Ethernet Card, M7792 In-Reply-To: <981017152703.202000a5@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 17, 98 03:27:03 pm Message-ID: <199810171947.MAA24532@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Again: > You also need the M7793, in addition to a DEUNA cab kit. Thanks. I should have brought the field guide with me. No way to print it at the hotel. There might have been an M7793 there too, but as usual all the boards were buried on top of one another in a 6'x6' by 4' tall bin. If it was there I couldn't find it. They had another full bin that had been shrink-wrapped, who knows what treasures were in there :-( Got my fingers cut a few times rummaging through, but that's the price of treasure hunting! > If you get a chance, grab the DELUA instead - it's a single-board Unibus > Ethernet adapter. I'm back to Vancouver tomorrow, maybe next time. I only spent $10 CDN (that's $6.40 US) for both boards (this one and the 11/84) in any case. Thanks for the info, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Oct 17 15:01:25 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Educational subsidies Message-ID: <19981017200125.6351.qmail@hotmail.com> Slashdot.org has a story explaining that the UK school system can't afford NT 5 and are considering another OS. In light of this, people were bringing up Apple's success in schools in contrast to the current situation. However, I have heard that the only reason why Apples were common in schools was that the gov't bore some of the price tag to encourage use of Apples, and Apple didn't pay as much attention to education as is generally thought. Is this true? What were the particulars of Apple educational licensing? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 17 15:19:57 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Educational subsidies In-Reply-To: <19981017200125.6351.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Slashdot.org has a story explaining that the UK school system can't > afford NT 5 and are considering another OS. In light of this, people > were bringing up Apple's success in schools in contrast to the current > situation. However, I have heard that the only reason why Apples were > common in schools was that the gov't bore some of the price tag to > encourage use of Apples, and Apple didn't pay as much attention to > education as is generally thought. Is this true? What were the > particulars of Apple educational licensing? Well, I don't know about that. Every school I came up through had at least an Apple lab. In fact, all the schools I attended (Los Angeles Unified) had exclusively Apple ][s, and it wasn't until my senior year of high school (1989) when I moved to northern California and attended a totally new school that the school had an IBM lab, but they still had an Apple lab (which was barely used until I raised a stink about it, and encouraged the teachers to begin using it more to teach basic computer skills, which they did). Apple very actively marketed to schools, and as far as I know had special deals in place to encourage wide-spread adoption in schools. If I'm not mistaken, the schools were Apple's biggest market, and continued to use Apple ][s well after they fell out of favor in the general marketplace. Where did you get your information from? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 17 15:21:05 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Educational subsidies Message-ID: <981017162105.202000ab@trailing-edge.com> > What were the > particulars of Apple educational licensing? Um, what was there to license? You bought an Apple ][, you got Integer Basic. You bought an Apple ][+, you got Applesoft. You buy a Disk ][, you DOS 3.2 (and, later when it came out, DOS 3.3 free of charge.) Are you possibly asking about non-operating system hardware? Tim. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 17 15:03:15 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <981017160315.202000a6@trailing-edge.com> >My board says simply "M8190", the etching says "M8190", part number is >"5016017-01-D1-P3", etch also says "KDJ11-B CPU", there are 3x 28-pin ROM >sockets on the left hand side, 1x 40-pin on the top right, all empty. Without any rev letters after the M8190, what you've got is almost certainly the old 15MHz non-FPA-capable KDJ11B. Probably very similar to the CPU in the Micro-11/73 you got from SERF at UBC. (Or, at least I think like the Micro-11/73 I seem to recall you getting from SERF. There was a Micro-11/23 and a KA650 in a BA23 I also seem to recall...) Tim. From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Oct 17 16:03:21 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Educational subsidies Message-ID: <19981017210322.22285.qmail@hotmail.com> I'm almost embarassed to say: I believe it was a site that compared PCs and Macs. If it was a ruse, it was very sophisticated for a person who writes an 'intelligent comparison' of PCs and Macs. Maybe they were paid off by you-know-who ... >> Slashdot.org has a story explaining that the UK school system can't >> afford NT 5 and are considering another OS. In light of this, people >> were bringing up Apple's success in schools in contrast to the current >> situation. However, I have heard that the only reason why Apples were >> common in schools was that the gov't bore some of the price tag to >> encourage use of Apples, and Apple didn't pay as much attention to >> education as is generally thought. Is this true? What were the >> particulars of Apple educational licensing? > >Well, I don't know about that. Every school I came up through had at >least an Apple lab. In fact, all the schools I attended (Los Angeles >Unified) had exclusively Apple ][s, and it wasn't until my senior year of >high school (1989) when I moved to northern California and attended a >totally new school that the school had an IBM lab, but they still had an >Apple lab (which was barely used until I raised a stink about it, and >encouraged the teachers to begin using it more to teach basic computer >skills, which they did). > >Apple very actively marketed to schools, and as far as I know had special >deals in place to encourage wide-spread adoption in schools. If I'm >not mistaken, the schools were Apple's biggest market, and continued to >use Apple ][s well after they fell out of favor in the general >marketplace. > >Where did you get your information from? > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Oct 17 16:04:16 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Educational subsidies Message-ID: <19981017210416.979.qmail@hotmail.com> More precisely, what were the particulars of Apple's sales to schools? > >> What were the >> particulars of Apple educational licensing? > >Um, what was there to license? You bought an Apple ][, you got Integer >Basic. You bought an Apple ][+, you got Applesoft. You buy a Disk ][, >you DOS 3.2 (and, later when it came out, DOS 3.3 free of charge.) > >Are you possibly asking about non-operating system hardware? > >Tim. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 17 15:59:51 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 In-Reply-To: <199810171910.MAA15827@fraser.sfu.ca> (message from Kevin McQuiggin on Sat, 17 Oct 1998 12:10:01 -0700 (PDT)) References: <199810171910.MAA15827@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <19981017205951.13763.qmail@brouhaha.com> Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > I'm in Ottawa, and on my obligatory trip to the computer salvage place, > picked up an M8190 Unibus 11/84 card. Actually, even though it came out of a Unibus machine, it's a Qbus CPU card. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 17 12:25:19 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Tandy Keyboard In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 16, 98 08:44:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 663 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981017/f4d16018/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 17 12:22:49 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: RX50's on a PC? In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Oct 16, 98 06:04:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1008 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981017/e44df168/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 17 12:43:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Sparc Supply Schematics In-Reply-To: from "Karl Maftoum" at Oct 17, 98 04:55:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 444 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981017/0e5ea56a/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Oct 17 17:02:54 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Educational subsidies In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 17, 98 01:19:57 pm Message-ID: <199810172202.PAA17782@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1874 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981017/aec58f37/attachment.ksh From handyman at sprintmail.com Sat Oct 17 05:23:06 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: IBM 5126 at the local thrift store References: <199810171702.NAA24969@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <36287009.2D723CBE@sprintmail.com> Jason Willgruber wrote: > I know that. The post that I was correcting was the one with the list of > numbers and what computer they were for: > > Notice that the PC/AT is listed as a 5180, not 5170. > - > > This machine is an IBM 5126 and it is an AT (286) class machine, read my > > last post again its an Automobile Analyzer, not a desktop computer.. I > > didn;t make the number up, its on a metal ID tag sticker on the side of > > this unit, : Says "IBM 5126" I checked it out very closely.. > > Sorry Jason, I misread your email. Thought you were questioning my discovery.. Wonder why IBM has called this machine a 5126 anyway ? Also why hasn't someone jumped at the opportunity to purchase this fine piece of equipment to tune up their automobile with ... !!! Its only 100 bucks and its the size of a large capacity washer, and weighs 500lbs.. It would be heaven to dissemble this monster and see what goodies lie within it.. Phil... From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Oct 17 17:13:15 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 In-Reply-To: <19981017205951.13763.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 17, 98 08:59:51 pm Message-ID: <199810172213.PAA28161@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi: > > I'm in Ottawa, and on my obligatory trip to the computer salvage place, > > picked up an M8190 Unibus 11/84 card. > > Actually, even though it came out of a Unibus machine, it's a Qbus CPU > card. I assume that you mean it's a Unibus version of the 11/73. I can't imagine that it would be usable in a Q bus backplane. The pinouts are quite different! Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 17 17:19:19 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <981017181919.208000ab@trailing-edge.com> >I assume that you mean it's a Unibus version of the 11/73. I can't imagine >that it would be usable in a Q bus backplane. The pinouts are quite >different! That's what the special backplane wiring and the KTJ11-B Unibus adapter take care of. Tim. From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Oct 17 17:01:32 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Anyone need a duodisk? Message-ID: <199810172223.SAA03290@gate.usaor.net> Will the DuoDisk work with an Apple //c? -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Aaron Christopher Finney > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Anyone need a duodisk? > Date: Saturday, October 17, 1998 3:14 PM > > I picked up an Apple duodisk this morning for $1, unknown condition. > Anyone want it? > > Aaron > From danjo at xnet.com Sat Oct 17 17:27:41 1998 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: RIP Jon Postel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Rax wrote: > October 17, 1998 > > I REMEMBER IANA > by Vint Cerf > > That someone was Jonathan B. Postel, our Internet Assigned Numbers > Authority, friend, engineer, confidant, leader, icon, and now, first > of the giants to depart from our midst. I am saddened and dismayed to read of Jon's death. I had communicated with him several times via email. Mostly about RFC's, methods, and just plain help. He was always quick to reply. > Jon, our beloved IANA, is gone. Even as I write these words I cannot quite > grasp this stark fact. We had almost lost him once before in 1991. Well, he had a plan for most contigencies, something we could all learn from. > And he could be stubborn beyond all expectation. He > could have outwaited the Sphinx in a staring contest, I think. No Comment... 8-) Sometimes from a simple question, I would detect some of the emotion behind the answer. He was an opinionated man. Not that it was bad mind you... Mr. Postel's passing is a sad thing, but some will be glad... BC From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Oct 17 17:21:04 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: IBM 5126 at the local thrift store Message-ID: <199810172229.SAA03994@gate.usaor.net> > > Sorry Jason, I misread your email. Thought you were questioning my > discovery.. > Wonder why IBM has called this machine a 5126 anyway ? > > Also why hasn't someone jumped at the opportunity to purchase this fine > piece of equipment to tune up their automobile with ... !!! > > Its only 100 bucks and its the size of a large capacity washer, and weighs > 500lbs.. > It would be heaven to dissemble this monster and see what goodies lie within > it.. > Phil... > They probably called it a 5126 because it has all the diagnostic stuff. It would be neat to throw a Pentium board, 32x CD-ROM in it, an then see what it would do. Imagine having it sitting in your living room as your "PC" :-) BTW: do you know what resolution the display is? -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Oct 17 17:24:30 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 In-Reply-To: <981017181919.208000ab@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 17, 98 06:19:19 pm Message-ID: <199810172224.PAA00825@fraser.sfu.ca> So this is a Q bus card, that can be plugged into a Q bus backplane without smoke generation?? Kevin > > >I assume that you mean it's a Unibus version of the 11/73. I can't imagine > >that it would be usable in a Q bus backplane. The pinouts are quite > >different! > > That's what the special backplane wiring and the KTJ11-B Unibus > adapter take care of. > > Tim. > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 17 17:34:30 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Anyone need a duodisk? In-Reply-To: <199810172223.SAA03290@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > Will the DuoDisk work with an Apple //c? Yes. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 17 16:45:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Need Info: Unibus Ethernet Card, M7792 In-Reply-To: <199810171913.MAA16403@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Oct 17, 98 12:13:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 776 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981017/f2eaca84/attachment.ksh From dogas at leading.net Sat Oct 17 18:26:36 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Hi Message-ID: <01bdfa25$955a50e0$e3c962cf@devlaptop> Can anyone offer some insight on a basic four. Its a fridge size mini with two disk packs (2324-200) and two 'external' double 8" floppies (3200A) and I've heard 'business basic' mentioned in the same breath as this beast (which now occupies a corner of my living room.... tea... anyone... - Mike: dogas@leading.net From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Oct 17 19:07:32 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Sparc Supply Schematics Message-ID: <19981018000732.20728.qmail@hotmail.com> Assuming it does you any good -- most of the paths are between the pins of two custom chips! > >> I have a friend who has 6 Sparc SLC's with either dud power supplies or >> monitor sync problems, is the schematics for the power supplies available > >I've found that schematics for modern computer stuff are almost never >available. And it's quicker to figure out how the thing works yourself >(including tracing out any bits of schematics that you need) than to >battle with the so-called technical support line for information ;-). > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Oct 17 20:09:18 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: RX50's on a PC? In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: RX50's on a PC?" (Oct 17, 18:22) References: Message-ID: <9810180209.ZM13515@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 17, 18:22, Tony Duell wrote: > Subject: Re: RX50's on a PC? > > > > Has anyone tried wiring an 8" RX52 floppy straight to a modern PC > > controller? I did the best I know how, and I *appear* to have a > > What on earth is an 8" RX52? There are 8" RX01s and RX02s and 5.25" RX50s > that I know about. Never heard of an 8" RX5x drive. I wondered if the reference was to something like the General Robotics double-sided RX02-compatible, but ISTR that's called an RX03. The drive is a standard SA800-compatible, and the controller emulates an RXV12, except that it has a firmware formatting routine. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Oct 17 20:11:10 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 In-Reply-To: Kevin McQuiggin "Re: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190" (Oct 17, 15:24) References: <199810172224.PAA00825@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <9810180211.ZM13523@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 17, 15:24, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > Subject: Re: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 > So this is a Q bus card, that can be plugged into a Q bus backplane > without smoke generation?? It is indeed. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Sat Oct 17 17:07:35 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: UPDATE: RT 6151 is home! In-Reply-To: <981017162105.202000ab@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199810180202.WAA07935@mail.cgocable.net> Gee... (begins yelling) GOOD THING I DID NOT *CLOSE* THAT POWER CONTACTS that spews 37A worth of 5V juice! (stops and panting...) Whew... There *IS* a serious problem in front end of that semi-active backplane slot board where on both sides leaked battery contents trickled in one stream and one area directly under the battery area appox 1" square that involved one IC. What is best solution for clean up process? I know: Vinegar and? The corrison looks minor to me just lot of gunk and minor oxidized bits. After that, repair all the corroded bits and do some jumpering as needed. The case is rusted in many spots in same areas. BTW. The good news: All cards are fine! :) 2 pair of 4 port serial cards 1 AT parallel/ serial card 1 MDA/parallel card 1 160MB streaming tape controller card and a external tape drive (Cipher model 540/F Plus) 1 Extended ESDI controller 1 4MB ECC fast memory. 1 2nd generation processor board (w/o 4MB onboard version) PSU is choked with brown dust (heavy smoker apprently) 2 fans one of them is oddball 9V driven by a regulator fed by 12V. Power supply casing is riveted together (dart! Those hefty rivets! they're not your common pop rivet type.) I prefer to get that apart for inspection and cleaning. 1 Keyboard. (looks like exactly like Model M 101 Keys but in fact, same logic board except that has different 6805 microcontroller and speaker where regular has the mounting hardware but no speaker). I have read the RT FAQ and I still have questions: Have anyone successfully used IDE RT will think of those as MFM 70MB if I instruct the OS to use this or standard SCSI card with bit of patching or something to make that work? Jason D. PS: Check THOSE stupid batteries in all of your classics and non-classics often! This is warning and not taken lightly. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From nerdware at laidbak.com Sat Oct 17 21:24:05 1998 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (nerdware@laidbak.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: 128k Mac Schematic needed Message-ID: <199810180221.VAA14918@garcon.laidbak.com> Hi, group. My 128k Mac went south on me. When I first got it a year ago, it turned on and the screen came up and asked for a floppy. Not having a system disk that old, I just put it in storage until I came across one. Needless to say, next time I turned it on the floppy made funny noises and kept spitting the disk out and no video. Does anyone have a schematic for the little beast so I can get it cooking again? If I have to, I can use my Mac Plus for my history presentations, but I would rather use the original, if possible. Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From mbg at world.std.com Sat Oct 17 21:26:42 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <199810180226.AA22543@world.std.com> >So this is a Q bus card, that can be plugged into a Q bus backplane >without smoke generation?? Sure is... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sat Oct 17 21:31:40 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <199810180231.AA09964@world.std.com> >> Actually, even though it came out of a Unibus machine, it's a Qbus CPU >> card. > >I assume that you mean it's a Unibus version of the 11/73. I can't >imagine that it would be usable in a Q bus backplane. The pinouts are >quite different! Nope, the KDJ11-B which plugs into an 11/84 can also be plugged into a Qbus box and work... The fact is that the 11/84 actually has two buses, the qbus, on which the processor and memory reside (as well as the q-u bus converter), and the unibus, in which the rest of the options reside. (Yes, Tim is right about the official boards which go in specific boxes and are marketed and sold as specific systems) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sat Oct 17 21:36:49 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <199810180236.AA27694@world.std.com> >To further complicate matters, within digital the CPU is identified >differently based on whether it has PMI memory installed or not. >(And, of course, it matters whether the PMI comes before or after >the CPU in the backplane!) So, for example, you may find a 18 MHz >CPU with non-PMI memory called a 11/73, but with PMI memory it's called >a 11/83. In fact... you could find the system with PMI memory, but installed in the wrong place, and it will be identifed - by software - as an 11/73B. If you put the same memory in the right place, it will be identified as an 11/83. >If, indeed, you have the 11/84 capable version, you'll also need the >KDJ11-B and the 11/84 backplane, along with PMI memory, to have a >real 11/84 CPU. But the board with Qbus memory in the qbus of an 11/84 system box should work... I've also taken one of the KDJ11-B 18mhz boards, removed the 18mhz clock and replaced it with a 20mhz clock... the boot ROM correctly identifies the clock speed, and the system runs rock solid... be warned - not all boards will do so, from what I understand... your milage may vary... etc... If you make the change and it doesn't work, don't blame me... (save the old clock). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sat Oct 17 21:42:40 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <199810180242.AA17836@world.std.com> >I'm in Ottawa, and on my obligatory trip to the computer salvage place, >picked up an M8190 Unibus 11/84 card. > >It's a 4-finger LSI board, connectors for console and likely a cabinet >kit of some sort. Both connectors connect to the same cab kit... though it isn't required. The console terminal baud rate can be set in the switches on the board, and the on-board LEDs will display the state which would be displayed in the cab kit LED display... >I'd like to try this board, my questions are: > >1. Any other support boards needed, or will this board run standalone, >presuming available RAM? Memory... any qbus memory will do if all you want is to get the machine up and running. A 2x5 to DB25 connector for the console terminal. A console terminal. A disk interface. A QBUS system box, or an 11/84 system box (which is qbus in the first part). >2. What kind of backplane is required? I have an 11/45 backplane but this >wouldn't do because of the extensive point-to-point wiring for the CPU >cards, etc. Sorry, the board plugs into a QBUS portion of the 11/84 system box. It will not plug into a unibus. >3. Any way to run this is the "straight through" section of the Unibus >that exists in the high slot numbers of older Unibus' like the 11/45? Nope... >4. Is anybody else using this card successfully? In qbus machines - yes... several of my systems are 11/83s (KDJ11-B at 18mhz, with PMI memory). I've even modified one to be running at 20mhz (mentioned in another message) -- I call it an 11/83plus. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From handyman at sprintmail.com Sat Oct 17 10:05:25 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: IBM 5126 at the local thrift store References: <199810172229.SAA03994@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <3628B234.84D1E2F@sprintmail.com> Jason Willgruber wrote: > > Wonder why IBM has called this machine a 5126 anyway ? > > > > Also why hasn't someone jumped at the opportunity to purchase this fine > > piece of equipment to tune up their automobile with ... !!! > > > > Its only 100 bucks and its the size of a large capacity washer, and > weighs > > 500lbs.. > > It would be heaven to dissemble this monster and see what goodies lie > within it.. Phil... > > > > They probably called it a 5126 because it has all the diagnostic stuff. > > It would be neat to throw a Pentium board, 32x CD-ROM in it, an then see > what it would do. Imagine having it sitting in your living room as your > "PC" :-) Deffinatly a collectors item, very impressive a 500lb IBM AT.. Large wheels and very thick metal case.. > > > BTW: do you know what resolution the display is? Don't know the resolution, but its a monochrome 14 inch green touch screen built right in the big washing machine looking case. Thats really the coolest thing about it. Never had a touch screen before..Phil... From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sat Oct 17 22:29:34 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Ultrix installation media In-Reply-To: <199810162345.QAA29681@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19981018132759.00dff440@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 04:45 PM 16-10-98 -0700, sethm@loomcom.com wrote: >Does anyone have Ultrix 4.2a distribution media? Alas, I do not have >a TK50 drive; I know that was the usual distribution method, but I'm >hoping it was also available on CDROM. For some horribly sick reason >I miss Ultrix, and it would be nice to play with again. Well I can confirm that Ultrix 4.x came on CD (I've got a fair few stored away somewhere at work). I'd be happy to make a copy for you, but of course there are licensing issues. Perhaps we can take this off the list for further discussion? Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From rws at ais.net Sat Oct 17 22:40:16 1998 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: System/34 and 36 Message-ID: <199810180340.WAA06360@eagle.ais.net> Hi everybody, I made my first major equipment move today. It was a System/34 system unit (5340), a System/36 system unit (5360), two band printers (3262), and two tape drives (8809). About 5,000 lb. as near as I can figure. Nothing fell over or hurt anybody- very encouraging for the next move (although now I'm out of room!) My biggest, burning question is this: How do you get those darn covers on the side of the S/36 open? All it has is a little 1/4" long slot. Probing around inside was completely fruitless. I can see a black plastic piece inside through the slot, but pushing, pulling, lifting, or pushing down on it doesn't do anything. Any help would be much appreciated. Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From william at ans.net Sat Oct 17 22:50:59 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: Unibus Emulex board - ID, please... Message-ID: I am sorting out my DEC cards, figuring out which ones will be included on my upcoming "junk sale" list. I came across a Unibus card made by Emulex, and I can not figure out its model number! It has two 50 pin connectors on the end, along with one red LED and a 4 place DIP switch. Near the middle of the board are two 10 place DIP switches. Notable chips include a 2901, six 24 pin ROMs, a 40 pin DIP with a sticker over it, and lots of glue. What is this thing called? I would like to get a good idea before I stick it into the sale. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Oct 17 23:46:18 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: System/34 and 36 References: <199810180340.WAA06360@eagle.ais.net> Message-ID: <3629729A.E11674A2@bigfoot.com> Richard W. Schauer wrote: > I made my first major equipment move today. It was a System/34 system > unit (5340), a System/36 system unit (5360), two band printers (3262), and > two tape drives (8809). About 5,000 lb. as near as I can figure. Nothing > fell over or hurt anybody- very encouraging for the next move (although > now I'm out of room!) Better you than me...moved a 6262 band printer from a warehouse office to our DP office the other day, darn near killed ourselves even using a forklift to get it from the docks to the office as tall as it is. I'm still amazed at some of this stuff - how big it is and what it does, all on a standard 110v plugin. I personally don't know if I'd want the 6262 in my house though. Russ Blakeman Harned, KY From rexstout at uswest.net Sun Oct 18 01:24:34 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:26 2005 Subject: 128k Mac Schematic needed In-Reply-To: <199810180221.VAA14918@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: >Needless to say, next time I turned it on the floppy made funny noises and >kept spitting the disk out and no video. Forget schematics, go get a copy of "The Dead Mac Scrolls". Much better for this sort of thing... For various things(old toaster Macs, printers, drives, newer Macs[this is an old book so don't expect to see any PowerMacs, although maybe a IIci]) and gives various symptoms and possible causes(and where to find the bad part on the board). I just check out a copy at the library when I need it, but if I see it cheap I might grab it... It's probably out of print by now but it can't be THAT hard to find... Or could it? -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From ddameron at earthlink.net Sun Oct 18 00:54:19 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Intel single board computer. Message-ID: <199810180554.WAA14592@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> I found my first 8080 computer, an Intel single board 80/10A. I have no documentation. Is there a name for the physical bus at the bottom of the board so I can search for its description? The power connections I can trace OK. There is a 86 pin edge connector at 0.156 inch spacing, and another 60 pin edge connector at 0.1 inch spacing. The jumper pins on the board are numbered only, there are 80. Some I have figured out already. Once I find all the power connections (on the 86 pin connector), assume +/- 5 volts and +/- 12 volts, I will try it and test the serial connection (8251). 8 of the jumper pins look like to set the serial clock frequencies. It looks like there is current loop as well as RS-232. Haven't found any jumpers for this yet. There is a single 2716 eprom, don't know what is in it- a monitor or some control program that may not use the serial port at all. There are 2 8255 parallel ic's going to top connectors. -Dave From kyrrin at jps.net Sun Oct 18 02:15:17 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: RIP Jon Postel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981018001517.0095b100@mail.jps.net> At 17:27 17-10-98 -0500, you wrote: >I am saddened and dismayed to read of Jon's death... As am I. If for no other reason than his efforts in helping to create what we know as the 'Internet' today. >Mr. Postel's passing is a sad thing, but some will be glad... Yeah. The spammers and the DMA... Perhaps that was uncalled for, perhaps not. I still believe that the single biggest mistake in the entire history of the Internet was made when NSF threw open the barn doors wide, as it were, with absolutely zero consideration of who might be infesting the thing. Anyway... God keep you, Jon. I, for one, will still do my darndest to kick anyone who spams me off the face of the 'net... permanently! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 18 02:22:31 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <981017101534.202000a7@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >>However, no matter what I try I can't get them (RX33's) to work when the ESDI >>controller is in place. On that note I'm giving up on this line of attack >>at least for the time being. > >It sounds to me like you've got a backplane DMA continuity grant problem. >What cards are in the backplane? What slots are they in? BA123 Cabinet with the cards in the following order (first in top, second in bottom): M8192 (Dual Height /73) 2Mb RAM (Dual Height) 2Mb RAM (Dual Height) M8043 DLV11-J (Dual Height) WQESD (Quad Height, Boot ROMs) M9047 Grant Continuity / M7516 DELQA M7546 TQK50 / M7555 RQDX3 Also in Cabinet is 1 TK50, 1 RX33, 3 150Mb ESDI drives. There is one change in this configuration, and the one I've been trying to boot with, I swapped the DEQNA for a DELQA. Somehow I don't expect that to make the slightest bit of difference. In any case I brought in the RL02, played swap the controllers and got RT-11 installed on the one Hard Drive. Which means I was able to haul the SMS-1000 I had running RT-11 out to the garage and free up a little space in here. While I'd like to get the floppy working, it's really my intention to use the network to transfer files to and from the system. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 18 02:59:44 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: IBM 5126 at the local thrift store In-Reply-To: <36287009.2D723CBE@sprintmail.com> (message from Phil Clayton on Sat, 17 Oct 1998 06:23:06 -0400) References: <199810171702.NAA24969@gate.usaor.net> <36287009.2D723CBE@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: <19981018075944.15200.qmail@brouhaha.com> Phil Clayton wrote: > Wonder why IBM has called this machine a 5126 anyway ? Well, they had to call it something. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 18 03:02:19 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 In-Reply-To: <199810172213.PAA28161@fraser.sfu.ca> (message from Kevin McQuiggin on Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:13:15 -0700 (PDT)) References: <199810172213.PAA28161@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <19981018080219.15209.qmail@brouhaha.com> Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > I'm in Ottawa, and on my obligatory trip to the computer salvage place, > picked up an M8190 Unibus 11/84 card. I wrote: > Actually, even though it came out of a Unibus machine, it's a Qbus CPU > card. Kevin wrote: > I assume that you mean it's a Unibus version of the 11/73. I can't imagine > that it would be usable in a Q bus backplane. The pinouts are quite > different! No, I meant exactly what I said. The M8190 is a Qbus card, even when it is in a Unibus-based 11/84. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 18 03:27:09 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Unibus Emulex board - ID, please... In-Reply-To: William Donzelli "Unibus Emulex board - ID, please..." (Oct 17, 23:50) References: Message-ID: <9810180927.ZM13799@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 17, 23:50, William Donzelli wrote: > Subject: Unibus Emulex board - ID, please... > I am sorting out my DEC cards, figuring out which ones will be included on > my upcoming "junk sale" list. I came across a Unibus card made by Emulex, > and I can not figure out its model number! > > It has two 50 pin connectors on the end, along with one red LED and a 4 > place DIP switch. Near the middle of the board are two 10 place DIP > switches. Notable chips include a 2901, six 24 pin ROMs, a 40 pin DIP with > a sticker over it, and lots of glue. It could be any of several things, for example it could be a serial line multiplexer, or a Pertec tape drive controler. What's written on the sticker on the 40-pin chip? The first two letters and two digits of the number that's usually on those chips would tell us what it is. Are there any stickers left on the ROMs? Anything silkscreened on the board, or written in the etch? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Oct 18 05:06:41 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Intel single board computer. Message-ID: <456bc584.3629bdb1@aol.com> Hi: The bus is Intel Multibus. Look in Intel documentation for Multibus or 80/10A. Paxton From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 18 07:19:57 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <981018081957.20e000b1@trailing-edge.com> >>To further complicate matters, within digital the CPU is identified >>differently based on whether it has PMI memory installed or not. >>(And, of course, it matters whether the PMI comes before or after >>the CPU in the backplane!) So, for example, you may find a 18 MHz >>CPU with non-PMI memory called a 11/73, but with PMI memory it's called >>a 11/83. >In fact... you could find the system with PMI memory, but installed >in the wrong place, and it will be identifed - by software - as an >11/73B. If you put the same memory in the right place, it will be >identified as an 11/83. And if you put the FPP in your pocket instead of the CPU board, it won't be identified by the software either :-). Your point is good though - you've got to put PMI memory in the right slot or you don't get the advantages! >>If, indeed, you have the 11/84 capable version, you'll also need the >>KDJ11-B and the 11/84 backplane, along with PMI memory, to have a >>real 11/84 CPU. >But the board with Qbus memory in the qbus of an 11/84 system box >should work... There are lots of never-officially-supported combinations which do work. >I've also taken one of the KDJ11-B 18mhz boards, removed the 18mhz >clock and replaced it with a 20mhz clock... the boot ROM correctly >identifies the clock speed, and the system runs rock solid... Maybe you mean MHz? :-). Sorry, ads where sellers claim spectacular milliHertz performance are one of my pet peeves. (Along with specs calling for compatibility with the ASC-2 character set and construction plans calling for DB-9 connectors!) Though it would be an interesting exercise to construct a Pentium II-type computer based on relays just so that it does top out around 300 milliHertz! One thing I never understood about metric prefixes is how come many of them are misused or, even more mysteriously, not used. For example, everybody around the world uses the term "metric ton" when the perfectly acceptable (and SI-preferred) term "megagram" is exactly equivalent (and to my ears sounds better!) And why say "ten thousand metric tonnes" when "10 gigagrams" is available? Tim "but let's keep the Metric Buttload" Shoppa. (shoppa@trailing-edge.com) From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Oct 18 07:39:15 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: PC cassette port info Message-ID: <3629E172.A7F58ECE@bigfoot.com> Someone out there had the technical reference for the original IBM PC model 5150. I need the pinout for the cassette port if possible. TIA Russ Blakeman Harned, KY From backofene at hotmail.com Sun Oct 18 07:40:38 1998 From: backofene at hotmail.com (Eileen Backofen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Educational subsidies Message-ID: <19981018124040.4943.qmail@hotmail.com> Never in the 17 years I've been involved in educational computing did the government ever encourage the use of Apples. As far as I know, the only way the gov't bore any of the price tag for computers in education was through grants (platform independent) or at the state level through negotiating volume pricing (all manufacturers included). Also, in Virginia in 1988 and 1990, the state had an initiative to get a critical mass of machines into grade levels 5-8. Some of the state money for education was distributed in hardware form. There were 2 contracts - one to Apple and the other to the winner of the DOS machine bid (Tandy). I think IBM challenged the outcome of the bid process but Tandy received the contract in the end. Each district then specified which type of machine they wanted. Apple II GSes or the Tandy 1000TL. In 90 the Apple offered was the new Mac LC (with no hard drive). The number of machines you received depended on your school's enrollment. This was a departure from the usual method of basing state aid on the district's financial index. In the 80s Apple was much more committed to Computers in Education than any other company. IBM made several abortive attempts, and formed their Eduquest division to handle the market. The machines were under-powered and the software was deadly. Apple asked teachers what they wanted, IBM told us what we should have. Apple also made its Appleworks software (WP, SS, DB) software available to schools at an extremely reasonable price. IBMs prices were out of sight. And based on market share, educational software manufacturers concentrated their best stuff on the Apple platform. As the percentages changed so did the mix of available titles. The Mac only label was common in the 80s; now you rarely see it. The IIes were real workhorses in the schools - impossible to kill. The GS, which was supposed to replace them, really didn't offer too much new for us other than a 3.5" drive. The Appletalk built-in network was supposed to be a plus - and it was for printing - but using it for program sharing was a painfully slow process. I remember telling the Apple rep that I wasn't sure what the future would be, but it wouldn't be running at 2 MHz and it wouldn't be black and white (as the Macs were at that time). I taught BASIC and even Pascal on those old Apples until 88 when we bought Tandys. One lab had Apple cards in them to run the old software. When Apple introduced its color Macs (1990?), they were so much more expensive than the similarly powered DOS machines that it was no contest, we joined the Wintel world. Also, we installed our first Novell network which helped the decision. On the West Coast, I think Apple was much more heavily involved in providing hardware to schools through grants. There were several showcase "Classrooms of Tomorrow?" And once a district invested in Apple the tendency was to continue buying the same product. The introduction of Windows 95 also did a lot to change encourage education to change platforms. >Slashdot.org has a story explaining that the UK school system can't >afford NT 5 and are considering another OS. In light of this, people >were bringing up Apple's success in schools in contrast to the current >situation. However, I have heard that the only reason why Apples were >common in schools was that the gov't bore some of the price tag to >encourage use of Apples, and Apple didn't pay as much attention to >education as is generally thought. Is this true? What were the >particulars of Apple educational licensing? > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From foxvideo at wincom.net Sun Oct 18 07:46:52 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Hi (Basic 4 mini) In-Reply-To: <01bdfa25$955a50e0$e3c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19981018084652.007b7650@mail.wincom.net> At 07:26 PM 10/17/1998 -0400, you wrote: >Can anyone offer some insight on a basic four. Its a fridge size mini with >two disk packs (2324-200) and two 'external' double 8" floppies (3200A) and >I've heard 'business basic' mentioned in the same breath as this beast >(which now occupies a corner of my living room.... tea... anyone... > >- Mike: dogas@leading.net > > We were given one a couple of years ago, but it was too far gone to restore--- someone had dismantled it with an axe!! I hope you have better luck with yours. Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Oct 18 09:33:40 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: System/34 and 36 Message-ID: <19981018143340.21074.qmail@hotmail.com> On a system/34, stick something through the slot, and pull the cover off. The silver thing inside the slot is one end of a catch, which attaches to the frame. Pushing on the silver thing swings the catch away. > >I made my first major equipment move today. It was a System/34 system >unit (5340), a System/36 system unit (5360), two band printers (3262), and >two tape drives (8809). About 5,000 lb. as near as I can figure. Nothing >fell over or hurt anybody- very encouraging for the next move (although >now I'm out of room!) > >My biggest, burning question is this: How do you get those darn covers on >the side of the S/36 open? All it has is a little 1/4" long slot. >Probing around inside was completely fruitless. I can see a black plastic >piece inside through the slot, but pushing, pulling, lifting, or pushing >down on it doesn't do anything. > >Any help would be much appreciated. > >Richard Schauer >rws@ais.net > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Oct 18 09:42:29 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Educational subsidies Message-ID: <19981018144230.21739.qmail@hotmail.com> Thanks. Actually, my school just got rid of a lab full of eduquests to another school, and we still have one of them in the basement. These seem like OK machines, though never tried to use them. They're like PS/2 Model 25s only bigger. They have microphone and headphone jacks on the front, along with a floppy drive. They're all 486s with 16 MB RAM, IIRC. What was wrong with these? > >Never in the 17 years I've been involved in educational computing did >the government ever encourage the use of Apples. As far as I know, the >only way the gov't bore any of the price tag for computers in education >was through grants (platform independent) or at the state level through >negotiating volume pricing (all manufacturers included). Also, in >Virginia in 1988 and 1990, the state had an initiative to get a critical >mass of machines into grade levels 5-8. Some of the state money for >education was distributed in hardware form. There were 2 contracts - >one to Apple and the other to the winner of the DOS machine bid (Tandy). >I think IBM challenged the outcome of the bid process but Tandy >received the contract in the end. Each district then specified which >type of machine they wanted. Apple II GSes or the Tandy 1000TL. In 90 >the Apple offered was the new Mac LC (with no hard drive). The number of >machines you received depended on your school's enrollment. This was a >departure from the usual method of basing state aid on the district's >financial index. > >In the 80s Apple was much more committed to Computers in Education than >any other company. IBM made several abortive attempts, and formed >their Eduquest division to handle the market. The machines were >under-powered and the software was deadly. Apple asked teachers what >they wanted, IBM told us what we should have. Apple also made its >Appleworks software (WP, SS, DB) software available to schools at an >extremely reasonable price. IBMs prices were out of sight. And based >on market share, educational software manufacturers concentrated their >best stuff on the Apple platform. As the percentages changed so did the >mix of available titles. The Mac only label was common in the 80s; now >you rarely see it. > >The IIes were real workhorses in the schools - impossible to kill. The >GS, which was supposed to replace them, really didn't offer too much new >for us other than a 3.5" drive. The Appletalk built-in network was >supposed to be a plus - and it was for printing - but using it for >program sharing was a painfully slow process. I remember telling the >Apple rep that I wasn't sure what the future would be, but it wouldn't >be running at 2 MHz and it wouldn't be black and white (as the Macs were >at that time). I taught BASIC and even Pascal on those old Apples until >88 when we bought Tandys. One lab had Apple cards in them to run the >old software. > >When Apple introduced its color Macs (1990?), they were so much more >expensive than the similarly powered DOS machines that it was no >contest, we joined the Wintel world. Also, we installed our first >Novell network which helped the decision. > >On the West Coast, I think Apple was much more heavily involved in >providing hardware to schools through grants. There were several >showcase "Classrooms of Tomorrow?" And once a district invested in >Apple the tendency was to continue buying the same product. > >The introduction of Windows 95 also did a lot to change encourage >education to change platforms. > > > > > > >>Slashdot.org has a story explaining that the UK school system can't >>afford NT 5 and are considering another OS. In light of this, people >>were bringing up Apple's success in schools in contrast to the current >>situation. However, I have heard that the only reason why Apples were >>common in schools was that the gov't bore some of the price tag to >>encourage use of Apples, and Apple didn't pay as much attention to >>education as is generally thought. Is this true? What were the >>particulars of Apple educational licensing? >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 18 09:57:30 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: System/34 and 36 Message-ID: <981018105730.204000aa@trailing-edge.com> >On a system/34, stick something through the slot, and pull the cover >off. The silver thing inside the slot is one end of a catch, which >attaches to the frame. Pushing on the silver thing swings the catch >away. This, I believe, is the reason I've found several sets of keys in various large-scale (i.e. megagram) hauls I've made :-). Tim. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Oct 18 05:56:23 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Educational subsidies In-Reply-To: <199810172202.PAA17782@oa.ptloma.edu> References: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 17, 98 01:19:57 pm Message-ID: <199810181500.LAA04219@smtp.interlog.com> On 17 Oct 98 at 15:02, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::Well, I don't know about that. Every school I came up through had at > ::least an Apple lab. In fact, all the schools I attended (Los Angeles > ::Unified) had exclusively Apple ][s, and it wasn't until my senior year of > ::high school (1989) when I moved to northern California and attended a > ::totally new school that the school had an IBM lab, but they still had an > ::Apple lab (which was barely used until I raised a stink about it, and > ::encouraged the teachers to begin using it more to teach basic computer > ::skills, which they did). > > Same here. I learned BASIC on an Apple ][+ in the La Mesa-Spring Valley > (San Diego) School District in '84, but even my high school had Apple ][e's > until only a couple of years ago when they switched locations and used a > grant to buy PCs. I think they have a Mac or two also (mostly as a token :-/). > > Apples were most common here, but amazingly, at least one school in my district > had a lab of Commodore 64s (Commodore made an abortive effort to crack the > school market in 1989 but it flopped, of course), and the K-8 I went to for > junior high had a lab of CoCo 2s, connected by that fabulous network server > that acts like a cassette interface and served by a CoCo 3 with a disk drive. > I wrote a fraction division program, which was still in use years later -- it > was loaded off the CoCo 3 and then CLOADed onto the CoCo 2s before math period > started. > > (Mr. Lamb also had two 64s there, sharing a miserably overworked 1541. :-) > -- The influence of schools on computers is interesting. Atari managed to crack the German educational system and as a result the best programs for the Atari ST have come from Germany. Programs such as Steinbergs Cubase and E-logic's Notator started out on Ataris partly because of it's music capabilities but mainly because of it beimg the machine so many Germans began with. They were both ported to Wintel and Mac. Another example is Calamus the desktop publishing program. To this day Germany is still the center for most Atari ST activity and where the new clones are coming out of. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Oct 18 10:53:11 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: IBM 5126 at the local thrift store In-Reply-To: <19981018075944.15200.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 18, 98 07:59:44 am Message-ID: <199810181553.IAA14658@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 545 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981018/c7adbe88/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Oct 18 10:55:23 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Educational subsidies Message-ID: there's nothing wrong with eduquests at all. in fact, the model 55 is quite nice. the only problem is lack of many slots inside and only one bay for a hard drive as well as if the monitor or power supply fail, that's expensive. i like how the inner tray slides out with your system board and everything on it. very handy. In a message dated 10/18/98 9:43:39 AM US Eastern Standard Time, maxeskin@hotmail.com writes: > Thanks. Actually, my school just got rid of a lab full of eduquests > to another school, and we still have one of them in the basement. > These seem like OK machines, though never tried to use them. They're > like PS/2 Model 25s only bigger. They have microphone and headphone > jacks on the front, along with a floppy drive. They're all 486s with > 16 MB RAM, IIRC. What was wrong with these? From marvin at rain.org Sun Oct 18 11:32:20 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: PC cassette port info References: <3629E172.A7F58ECE@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <362A1814.26C5E995@rain.org> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Someone out there had the technical reference for the original IBM PC > model 5150. I need the pinout for the cassette port if possible. Pin 1 - Motor Control Pin 2 - Ground Pin 3 - Motor Control Pin 4 - Data In Pin 5 - Data Out The internal connection on Pin 1 and Pin 3 is a relay with N.O. contacts. From backofene at hotmail.com Sun Oct 18 12:51:03 1998 From: backofene at hotmail.com (Eileen Backofen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Educational subsidies Message-ID: <19981018175104.11413.qmail@hotmail.com> The problems your mention is exactly what we had - over & over again. Perhaps our failure rate was due to the fact that all our Eduquests came through the grocery receipts program, we never actually bought one. And through that program, getting repairs was a hassle and they always needed repair. >there's nothing wrong with eduquests at all. in fact, the model 55 is quite >nice. the only problem is lack of many slots inside and only one bay for a >hard drive as well as if the monitor or power supply fail, that's expensive. i >like how the inner tray slides out with your system board and everything on >it. very handy. > > > >In a message dated 10/18/98 9:43:39 AM US Eastern Standard Time, >maxeskin@hotmail.com writes: > >> Thanks. Actually, my school just got rid of a lab full of eduquests >> to another school, and we still have one of them in the basement. >> These seem like OK machines, though never tried to use them. They're >> like PS/2 Model 25s only bigger. They have microphone and headphone >> jacks on the front, along with a floppy drive. They're all 486s with >> 16 MB RAM, IIRC. What was wrong with these? > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Oct 18 12:53:22 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: PC cassette port info References: <3629E172.A7F58ECE@bigfoot.com> <362A1814.26C5E995@rain.org> Message-ID: <362A2B11.DCB53296@bigfoot.com> Thanks very much. Marvin wrote: > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > > Someone out there had the technical reference for the original IBM PC > > model 5150. I need the pinout for the cassette port if possible. > > Pin 1 - Motor Control > Pin 2 - Ground > Pin 3 - Motor Control > Pin 4 - Data In > Pin 5 - Data Out > > The internal connection on Pin 1 and Pin 3 is a relay with N.O. contacts. From ddameron at earthlink.net Sun Oct 18 13:49:43 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Intel single board computer. Message-ID: <199810181849.LAA13362@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> At 06:06 AM 10/18/98 EDT, you wrote: >Hi: >The bus is Intel Multibus. Look in Intel documentation for Multibus or >80/10A. >Paxton > > Hi Paxton, Thanks, I will look. -Dave From william at ans.net Sun Oct 18 14:04:23 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Unibus Emulex board - ID, please... In-Reply-To: <9810180927.ZM13799@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > It could be any of several things, for example it could be a serial line > multiplexer, or a Pertec tape drive controler. What's written on the > sticker on the 40-pin chip? The first two letters and two digits of the > number that's usually on those chips would tell us what it is. Are there > any stickers left on the ROMs? Anything silkscreened on the board, or > written in the etch? TC1310201-FSH is on the big sticker. William Donzelli william@ans.net From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Oct 18 14:14:58 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 References: <981017152546.202000a5@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <362A3E32.37924D5C@halcyon.com> CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > A M8190-AB is a 15 MHz (11/73) CPU with "warm floating point", but > *will* accept the FPJ11 as an option. I have one -AB that has a socket for the FPJ11 and one -AB that doesn't have a socket installed. Are these the same board? Is installing a socket on the board without one difficult (being it's multilayered)? > To further complicate matters, within digital the CPU is identified > differently based on whether it has PMI memory installed or not. > (And, of course, it matters whether the PMI comes before or after > the CPU in the backplane!) So, for example, you may find a 18 MHz > CPU with non-PMI memory called a 11/73, but with PMI memory it's called > a 11/83. I have a couple of 1MB M7458-AH (MSV11-RA) PMI boards. Although the Micronotes refer only to MSV11-J boards, I assume that what it has to say applies to the MSV11-R also? I also have a 4MB non-PMI board. What sort of performance loss do I get by using the non-PMI memory? My goal is to run 2.11BSD, so more memory may be better than faster memory. (Of course, I can always try to find more, faster memory!) Thanks, Dave From kyrrin at jps.net Sun Oct 18 14:17:27 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Unibus Emulex board - ID, please... In-Reply-To: References: <9810180927.ZM13799@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981018121727.0094f750@mail.jps.net> At 15:04 18-10-98 -0400, you wrote: >TC1310201-FSH is on the big sticker. I recognize it. That's a TC13 (or TC131?) tape controller. It provides control for Pertec-interface drives. As I recall (someone check me on this!) it emulates TS11, but can also handle 6250BPI density drives. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Oct 18 14:17:24 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Unibus Emulex board - ID, please... References: Message-ID: <362A3EC4.A64174B7@halcyon.com> This is Q-Bus magtape controller: TC13: Emulex Pertec-interface tape drive controller. Switchable TU81 TMSCP (MU:) or TS-11 (MS:) emulation. William Donzelli wrote: > > > It could be any of several things, for example it could be a serial line > > multiplexer, or a Pertec tape drive controler. What's written on the > > sticker on the 40-pin chip? The first two letters and two digits of the > > number that's usually on those chips would tell us what it is. Are there > > any stickers left on the ROMs? Anything silkscreened on the board, or > > written in the etch? > > TC1310201-FSH is on the big sticker. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 18 14:58:55 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Unibus Emulex board - ID, please... Message-ID: <981018155855.20e000ed@trailing-edge.com> >TC1310201-FSH is on the big sticker. It's - surprise! - a TC13. Unibus Pertec-formatted tape controller, does TS11/TU80/TS05 emulation. Tim. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 18 15:18:13 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Unibus Emulex board - ID, please... Message-ID: <981018161813.20e000f1@trailing-edge.com> >This is Q-Bus magtape controller: >TC13: Emulex Pertec-interface tape drive controller. Switchable TU81 >TMSCP (MU:) or TS-11 (MS:) emulation. Nope, a TC13 is MS:-only. I think you're confusing it with the QT13, which is switchable between TMSCP and TS11. Tim. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 18 15:40:00 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 In-Reply-To: "David C. Jenner" "Re: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190" (Oct 18, 12:14) References: <981017152546.202000a5@trailing-edge.com> <362A3E32.37924D5C@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <9810182140.ZM1906@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 18, 12:14, David C. Jenner wrote: > Subject: Re: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 > CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > > > > A M8190-AB is a 15 MHz (11/73) CPU with "warm floating point", but > > *will* accept the FPJ11 as an option. > > I have one -AB that has a socket for the FPJ11 and one -AB that doesn't > have a socket installed. Are these the same board? Is installing a > socket on the board without one difficult (being it's multilayered)? Normally I'd say that meant the one without the socket wasn't likely to work with the FPJ11 even if you fitted it (they omitted the socket for a reason) but if they have same etch revision, maybe that's not the case. > I have a couple of 1MB M7458-AH (MSV11-RA) PMI boards. Although the > Micronotes refer only to MSV11-J boards, I assume that what it has to > say applies to the MSV11-R also? Yes, put them above the processor and they use PMI; put them below and they run as ordinary QBus memory. > I also have a 4MB non-PMI board. What sort of performance loss do I > get by using the non-PMI memory? My goal is to run 2.11BSD, so more > memory may be better than faster memory. (Of course, I can always try > to find more, faster memory!) There's quite a difference on memory-intensive tasks -- several tens of %. But the good news is that 2.11 wil run fine in 2MB. Whether more is better than faster will depend on how much memory you need, and whether you often use enough to make it do a lot of swapping to disk. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Oct 18 15:44:00 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Unibus Emulex board - ID, please... References: <981018161813.20e000f1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <362A5310.D41887C4@halcyon.com> The description was cut/paste directly from the "Field Guide". Maybe you could go through the latest version and point out other errors? Dave CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > >This is Q-Bus magtape controller: > >TC13: Emulex Pertec-interface tape drive controller. Switchable TU81 > >TMSCP (MU:) or TS-11 (MS:) emulation. > > Nope, a TC13 is MS:-only. I think you're confusing it with the QT13, > which is switchable between TMSCP and TS11. > > Tim. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 18 15:51:04 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <981018165104.20e000f1@trailing-edge.com> >I have one -AB that has a socket for the FPJ11 and one -AB that doesn't >have a socket installed. Are these the same board? I would gusess so (assuming that it really is a -AB revision and some handles haven't been swapped around.) > Is installing a >socket on the board without one difficult (being it's multilayered)? Not so bad if installed pin-at-a-time. >I have a couple of 1MB M7458-AH (MSV11-RA) PMI boards. Although the >Micronotes refer only to MSV11-J boards, I assume that what it has to >say applies to the MSV11-R also? Amazing! Someone actually read the micronotes! About 3/4 of the Q-bus questions asked here are answered in great technical detail by the micronotes, yet it seems like most folks still ask without bothering to consult them... Yes, the MSV11-R's are just as PMI as the -J's. >I also have a 4MB non-PMI board. What sort of performance loss do I >get by using the non-PMI memory? It depends on the I/O vs CPU memory load. It's a visible performance gain, but not incredible - I'd say 10-30% for most things. > My goal is to run 2.11BSD, so more >memory may be better than faster memory. 1 Mbyte is sufficient for 2.11BSD, and 2 Mbytes is more than enough. Tim. From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Oct 18 16:07:46 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 References: <981018165104.20e000f1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <362A58A2.C685AEC7@halcyon.com> CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > Amazing! Someone actually read the micronotes! About 3/4 of the > Q-bus questions asked here are answered in great technical detail > by the micronotes, yet it seems like most folks still ask without > bothering to consult them... > Hey, we want to "waste" as little of your time as possible--save just the really hard questions for you! It does pay to quote the links to the Micronotes occasionally; not everyone is aware of them, and sometimes we get lazy and find it easier to type in and post a question than to look through them. An occasional reminder helps keep us in line. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 18 16:31:05 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Unibus Emulex board - ID, please... Message-ID: <981018173105.20e000f1@trailing-edge.com> >The description was cut/paste directly from the "Field Guide". >Maybe you could go through the latest version and point out >other errors? I have to sheepishly admit that I think the TC13/QT13 error in the Field Guide was probably a typo I made myself 5-6 years ago! Tim. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 18 16:57:37 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: VCF on CNET Message-ID: Yah! The Vintage Computer Festival was immortalized on television. It aired on CNET Central on the USA network this morning at 6:00am. You might be able to catch re-runs of it this week on local stations. Its the last segment of the show. Here's a list of the people who were included in the 5-minute segment: Roger Sinasohn (talking about the Toshiba T1100) Jacob Rittoro Chuck McManis (talking about his PDP-8) Marvin Johnston Kai Kaltenbach (answering "Altair 8800" to the question "which is your favorite?) Paul Zachary Larry Anderson (showing off his PET 2001) Frank Gottschalk Jim Willing (talking about all sorts of stuff) And me (I'm Da Star! :) It was a very well-done segment, and I'm very pleased with it. Its sort of funny seeing yourself on TV, especially at 6am. Next year, I want prime time baby! If you get ZDTV (ZiffDavis) on cable then watch for a segment on one of their shows as well in the next couple weeks I would imagine. If I get word from them I'll pass it along too. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Oct 18 17:25:11 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Educational subsidies Message-ID: <19981018.173631.184.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Sun, 18 Oct 1998 05:40:38 PDT "Eileen Backofen" writes: > >The introduction of Windows 95 also did a lot to change encourage >education to change platforms. Yeah, I imagine it encouraged them to change back to the 'Pencil and Paper' computing platform. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 18 12:54:02 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: UPDATE: RT 6151 is home! In-Reply-To: <199810180202.WAA07935@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@pop.cgocable.net" at Oct 17, 98 10:07:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1354 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981018/4b88e419/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 18 12:56:32 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: RX50's on a PC? In-Reply-To: <9810180209.ZM13515@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 18, 98 01:09:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 555 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981018/4b32c1a5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 18 13:32:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 In-Reply-To: <981018081957.20e000b1@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 18, 98 08:19:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1347 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981018/43b777c0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 18 13:37:43 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: PC cassette port info In-Reply-To: <3629E172.A7F58ECE@bigfoot.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at Oct 18, 98 07:39:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 881 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981018/c37484a6/attachment.ksh From backofene at hotmail.com Sun Oct 18 18:04:16 1998 From: backofene at hotmail.com (Eileen Backofen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Educational subsidies Message-ID: <19981018230417.14665.qmail@hotmail.com> I know being an old Apple zealot I'm supposed to bemoan Win95, but it hasn't been a problem for us. Now 300 machines on our network with the old Cat3 cable and dozens of old switches in the wire closets- that's a problem, but nothing I can blame 95 for. > >On Sun, 18 Oct 1998 05:40:38 PDT "Eileen Backofen" > writes: > > > >> >>The introduction of Windows 95 also did a lot to change encourage >>education to change platforms. > > > >Yeah, I imagine it encouraged them to change back to the >'Pencil and Paper' computing platform. > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 18 13:24:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: 128k Mac Schematic needed In-Reply-To: from "John Rollins" at Oct 17, 98 10:24:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1763 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981018/d3450405/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 18 13:17:52 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Intel single board computer. In-Reply-To: <199810180554.WAA14592@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "dave dameron" at Oct 17, 98 10:54:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 907 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981018/c907fdb2/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Oct 18 18:19:31 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <19981018231932.10492.qmail@hotmail.com> >> Maybe you mean MHz? :-). Sorry, ads where sellers claim >> spectacular milliHertz performance are one of my pet peeves. (Along >> with specs calling for compatibility with the ASC-2 character set >> and construction plans calling for DB-9 connectors!) Though it would >> be an interesting exercise to construct a Pentium II-type computer >> based on relays just so that it does top out around 300 milliHertz! > >No thanks... I don't have a dozen spare telephone exchanges for parts ;-) If one were to estimate the number of transistors in a penitum II at 100 million (?), then if an exchange has ~three relays per number, you would get 300,000 relays in an exchange, which means 334 exchanges with a few spare parts left over! >> example, everybody around the world uses the term "metric ton" when >> the perfectly acceptable (and SI-preferred) term "megagram" is >> exactly equivalent (and to my ears sounds better!) And why say The reason is that using scientific notation/unit prefixes requires more calculation if one is not well practiced. While 90 decibels versus 900 decibels shows the relationship clearly (for those that know what a log is), 90 decibels vs. 90 bels is not quite as simple for some. >90 decibels (what's wrong with 9 bels?) >1000 millibars (= 1 bar. I was told by an idiot teacher at school that >the 'bar' as a unit of pressure did not exist. A lot of books claim it >does, though). Has anyone read the book "Innumeracy"? It mostly deals with debunking the concept of probability, but it is interesting in other respects, too. BTW, would you say 'kilobyte' is a misnomer? THe number it signifies isn't 10^3, it's 2^10. For a feeble attempt to get back on topic: was kilobyte always accepted as 1024 bytes? >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Oct 18 18:30:04 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 In-Reply-To: <19981018231932.10492.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > If one were to estimate the number of transistors in a penitum II > at 100 million (?), then if an exchange has ~three relays per number, More like a little more than a 1 million. With a 100 million transistor CPU I could rule the world!!! > signifies isn't 10^3, it's 2^10. For a feeble attempt to get back on > topic: was kilobyte always accepted as 1024 bytes? When I was learning, I always took 1K to be 1024 bytes, which is the correct measure (as far as I'm concerned). Thus, a 64K computer is 65536 bytes, for instance (65536 / 1204 = 64); Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 18 18:44:15 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <981018194415.20e000f1@trailing-edge.com> >And the millifarad. If you want to get an odd look, go into an >electronics shop and ask for a 2.2 millifarad capacitor. Nothing wrong >with the unit AFAIK but nobody seems to use it other than me :-) Here in the US, it's rare to see nanoFarads used as a unit - it's far more common to see a 2.2nF capacitor referred to as a 0.0022uF or as a 2200pF unit. This is an extension of the days when "microFarad" was "mF", and the next subdivision was "micro-micro-Farad", or "mmF". I believe that "mmg" is still used as a prefix in medical fields, but here it means (as far as I can figure out) "millimicrogram". Can someone correct me on this (I'm sure I'm wrong!) Tim. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 18 18:49:27 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <981018194927.20e000f1@trailing-edge.com> >> If one were to estimate the number of transistors in a penitum II >> at 100 million (?), then if an exchange has ~three relays per number, >More like a little more than a 1 million. With a 100 million transistor >CPU I could rule the world!!! Assuming each relay occupied a cubic inch, one million relays would occupy a cube 100 inches on each side, or just a bit over 8 feet on each side. Not ridiculously large. Of course, real relays much smaller than a cubic inch are readily available, and a real computer of that density would have incredible cooling problems. Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 18 18:45:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 In-Reply-To: <981018194415.20e000f1@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 18, 98 07:44:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1170 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981019/6eb4cd50/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 18 18:50:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 In-Reply-To: <19981018231932.10492.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Oct 18, 98 04:19:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1743 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981019/89ad4275/attachment.ksh From aaron at wfi-inc.com Sun Oct 18 19:18:59 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: RX50's on a PC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK, I need to get the basics and identify my stuff. This is my first PDP-ish system and I am feeling quite overwhelmed at this point. Thanks to "the experts" so far for all of your patience; I'll try to catch up as quickly as possible... Part of the problem is that this is *not* DEC stuff. It is Plessey Peripherals. Of which I have been able to find *no* info regarding part numbers and to equate them with their respective DEC equivalents. Maybe someone could help me clear some of this up? The main cabinet has the backplane and two Shugart 801 (SS, DD @ 1 meg *each* right?) drives in it. Now, from what I've read, this should be a pretty close copy of a PDP-11/23, right? What do I refer to these drives as? The backplane is a 9x6 Qbus. It has a KDF-11 (M8186) CPU and a bunch of boards that no one can ID from their numbers, including memory cards, a Peritek video card, a Standard Memories ram card with a toggle switch, a 4-port serial card, a floppy controller, and a multifunction board with 4 serial ports and a floppy connector. This floppy connector connects to another cabinet which houses 2 Mitsubishi 2996 8" drives, which I have found the specifications to indicate they're DS-DD @ 1.6 megs each. Confirmation? What do I refer to these drives as? There were a couple of people on the alt.sys.pdp newsgroup who remember something about the Plessey's, and I'm in the process of following up with them. Thanks again for the patience; maybe once I know what the hell I've got, I'll be better equipped to ask questions... Thanks again for everyone's patience and all the help I've gotten already. Aaron From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 18 20:17:16 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <199810190117.AA26426@world.std.com> < Here in the US, it's rare to see nanoFarads used as a unit - it's < far more common to see a 2.2nF capacitor referred to as a 0.0022uF < or as a 2200pF unit. This is an extension of the days when < "microFarad" was "mF", and the next subdivision was "micro-micro-Farad" < or "mmF". I have a lot of cap on drawing I've specified as nF and I switched to pF (picofarards 10^-12) back in the late 60s. < I believe that "mmg" is still used as a prefix in medical fields, < but here it means (as far as I can figure out) "millimicrogram". < Can someone correct me on this (I'm sure I'm wrong!) A friend is a toxicologist and with it isn't PPM it's picograms/liter. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 18 20:17:23 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190/ relays Message-ID: <199810190117.AA26489@world.std.com> < Assuming each relay occupied a cubic inch, one million relays would < occupy a cube 100 inches on each side, or just a bit over 8 feet on each < Not ridiculously large. The problem is not the size of the relay but the wires to interconnect them. For each relay one can assume there would be a minimum 10% volume overhead for interconnecting wires. < Of course, real relays much smaller than a cubic inch are readily availa < and a real computer of that density would have incredible cooling < problems. There are small units in the size of T05 (.325" dia, .265 tall) and the crystal can sizes (1.25x1.00x.375). So small relays are common and their power needs are very small. Also they cycle faster. These relays also have the advantage of being sealed preventing contamination. The later detail is real for larger systems. I have used the crystal can relays for control systems (25 relays!) and they are reliable fast and modest power. the units I used were Allied Signal manufacture and at 26.5v only required 50mA (max) and had 5A DPDT contacts. Each relay would use 1.325W... full scale machine using say 10,000 would use a fair amount of power. There are lower power relays available as well. Using two cross coupled makes a fine flip-flop. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 18 20:17:30 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <199810190117.AA26550@world.std.com> < But this doesn't explain why some units are not common even in scientifi < fields. Like the millifarad, for example. This is because that is an odd size 1000mF (10^-6) is rather uncommon when standard values and notation came about. Back then a 50mF cap was a large value! It was the advent of transistor circuits and their lower voltage power supplies that 1000mF were common. Then again we see caps now in the full Farad sizes. Then again from a womans point of view, it may be that 1400mm sounds bigger than 5 and a half inches. ;) Allison From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Sun Oct 18 16:51:47 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:27 2005 Subject: UPDATE: RT 6151 is home! In-Reply-To: References: <199810180202.WAA07935@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@pop.cgocable.net" at Oct 17, 98 10:07:35 pm Message-ID: <199810190146.VAA06880@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:54:02 +0100 (BST) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: UPDATE: RT 6151 is home! > Any dilute acid, I guess (the battery electrolyte is alkaline). Then wash > with distilled water and dry. No harm in then using isopropyl alcohol on > the boards to clean off other dirt, although that'll do nothing for the > battery problem yeah, that what I think. I have to gather up a fat painter brush (round one), vinegar, and distilled water tomorrow. > There are several PSUs used in the 6150 from what I've heard. One of > them is assembled by self-tapping screws with no slots in the heads (no > idea how they got them in, possibly they had heads that were then broken > off, like some security screws). It's worth gripping the heads with > self-locking pliers and trying to unscrew them. Gasp, that was already defeated easily because they're too proud by a mere common self-locking pliers. 4 of them but they're plain fine pitch not self-tapping kind. I saw them with both security and slotted screws all "wood self-tapping kind". > I've never seen blind rivets (as in, you can't get to the back of the > panel after assembly which is the case here) which aren't of the > pop-rivet type. Certainly not in a computer anyway. *Smacks my head*, that is how I sees those because it looked like rivets to me. :) They're like slotless screws. :) Oh yeah! there are one type that has twisted ridges that are pushed in by machine. How did I know? That was from younger days when I was stripping out guts out of old consumer stuff and car stuff. :-) Jason D. > > -tony email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Oct 18 20:52:42 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <19981019015243.29039.qmail@hotmail.com> Not to mention power problems! But I have the feeling that's a bit small! Nothing on the scale of the Pentium II has ever been achieved with transistors, never mind relays, and I'm sure they tried. For example, it would be possible to place transistors at 1 per cubic inch, and have the cool adequately, but it's clearly never been attempted, because if it were, there would be boxes to plug into a PC XT to get Pentium II speeds. >Assuming each relay occupied a cubic inch, one million relays would >occupy a cube 100 inches on each side, or just a bit over 8 feet on each side. >Not ridiculously large. > >Of course, real relays much smaller than a cubic inch are readily available, >and a real computer of that density would have incredible cooling >problems. > >Tim. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rws at ais.net Sun Oct 18 21:11:35 1998 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: System/34 and 36 In-Reply-To: <19981018143340.21074.qmail@hotmail.com> from Max Eskin at "Oct 18, 98 07:33:40 am" Message-ID: <199810190211.VAA07522@eagle.ais.net> Yesterday, I wrote: > My biggest, burning question is this: How do you get those darn covers > on the side of the S/36 open? All it has is a little 1/4" long slot. > Probing around inside was completely fruitless. I can see a black > plastic piece inside through the slot, but pushing, pulling, lifting, or > pushing down on it doesn't do anything. It seems that if necessity is the mother of invention, desperation is the mother of educated guesses. I was thumbing through my MIMs (maintenance information manuals) on the S/36 today and it mentioned the use of a special hooked tool to open the covers. One paperclip and several minutes later, and the covers were open. Explanation of how to do it (as it's not really self-explanatory): Find a large paperclip (the small ones bend too easy). Bend it up so you have a 1" long hook at the end, and the rest straight. The hook should measure 1/4" wide. If the catch inside is not broken (only one of mine wasn't), just hook it and pull straight out while alternately pushing and pulling on the cover. It takes a good pull on the clip, but be gentle, lest you wind up in this category: What to do if the catch is broken. There's usually a little piece of the catch left, so instead of pulling out the clip straight, aim the hook in the direction of the hinge of the door (e.g. slot on left, hinge on right, hook toward right). Do the alternating push and pull again to wiggle the door loose. Once you get it open, cut a new slot in the catch. -- Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From van at wired.com Sun Oct 18 21:09:11 1998 From: van at wired.com (van burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: COMPUTER SPACE REGISTRY Message-ID: Hello everybody... I hope you are all having a lovely weekend. I have decided to compile a comprehensive registry of all the existing Nutting Associates Computer Space machines that are still alive in North America -- and I need your help. I feel that it is important to the legacy of this revolutionary arcade game, and the history of videogames, to establish the wherabouts and condition of the remaining systems. If either you, or someone you know and love, is in possession of a Computer Space (working or not) please contact me with the following information: .............................. model: (one or two player) color: (red, green, blue, gold, or custom) controls: (buttons, joystick, pistol-grip, etc.) serial#: (stamped on back-plate) owner: (name) location: (city and state) condition: (working or not) comments: - contact info: (optional) If you have an image of your game, please send it as an attachment .............................. This list will be published as a reference for all Computer Space collectors and updated annually. Please feel free to forward this message to ANYONE and EVERYONE you feel may have insight as to the location of a Computer Space machine. Any assistance in locating these machines will be greatly appreciated you will no doubt be relentlessly thanked by me for your help. Best regards, van burnham ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === > BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ........................................................................ for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page@wired.com van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com From william at ans.net Sun Oct 18 21:21:43 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 In-Reply-To: <19981019015243.29039.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > Not to mention power problems! But I have the feeling that's a > bit small! Nothing on the scale of the Pentium II has ever been > achieved with transistors, never mind relays, and I'm sure they > tried. For example, it would be possible to place transistors at > 1 per cubic inch, and have the cool adequately, but it's clearly > never been attempted, because if it were, there would be boxes > to plug into a PC XT to get Pentium II speeds. I think CDC and IBM did a pretty good job in the mid to late 1960s with thier mainframes. CDC used extremely tight packed circuit boards, but fairly standard transistor packages, and manages to get a pretty respectable performance from their 6000 series. IBM also did a pretty good job with the classic S/360s. They managed to really pack the things in, mounting the transistor dies directly to the ceramic "circuit boards" inside the SLTs (those aluminum covered square packages). I really do not know how many transistors went into those big bits of iron, but it certainly was a great deal. A million may not be too far off. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Oct 18 21:32:41 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Odd Meas. Units Message-ID: How many of us (I don't) pronounce "giga" with a soft initial 'g' as is correct..? [Back to the Future used to drive me crazy until I found that the writers were right...] I have a 2.5 Farad @ 450VDC capacitor bank... takes an hour to charge, but delivers many Joules into a low-impedance load. Sometimes quite spectacularly! If the load is a solenoid, many Tesla are produced as well. I used to know the speed of light in Furlongs per Fortnight. If you wish to piss off the counter help at your local parts shop... ask for a 'Light-Emitting Resistor'. Hardware stores and markets have them too. I maintain several movie theaters in connection with my Work.. when asked (by newbies usually) how much power the sound system is in the largest one... and I am in one of those Moods... I will sometimes answer "About 11 RMS Horsepower..." And speaking as an audio geek... if a Pentium-class processor were made out of relay logic... imagine the *sound* it would make! I have many recordings of old telephone switchrooms.. especialy interesting are the large urban Crossbar offices... nothing yet I have heard makes that kind of sound. Finally, I have heard that a 'Millihelen' is the amount of beauty required to launch just *one* ship. Cheers John From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 18 22:12:21 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190/thread drift Message-ID: <199810190312.AA06421@world.std.com> < bit small! Nothing on the scale of the Pentium II has ever been < achieved with transistors, never mind relays, and I'm sure they < tried. For example, it would be possible to place transistors at < 1 per cubic inch, and have the cool adequately, but it's clearly Your unaware of many systems of the 60s that were large on performance and transistors. Your one transistor per cubic inch is far to low. I've worked with cordwood modules that were more in the 6 per cubic inch. Even flat boards were fairly dense. What is missed if the PII uses transistors where other logic systems would employ resistors, capacitors and pulse transformers. Also CMOS requires two transistors to do what can often be done with one using alternate forms of logic. What would be hard to attain is the extreme speeds and that is limited by incterconnections. Putting a few or alot of transistors on one die is not a speed matter in itself. The shrinking of the interconnectivity IE: shorter wires is! When machines got to the Cray speeds the length of wires was an issue as electrons propagate at 1ns a foot. To put that in perspective a PII running at 333mhz is clocking at 3ns! Distributing high speed signals around computers is an art, still. < never been attempted, because if it were, there would be boxes < to plug into a PC XT to get Pentium II speeds. The XT bus and IO are slow, even using a PII would be slowed. BEsides it was done using 386s... Allison From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Oct 18 21:05:07 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: HELP: Need Vax Fortran In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings all! Been busy lately so haven't kept up on the group that much. Something amazing has happened! I actually have an APPLICATION for one of my old machines! That's why I'm posting. I need to run some fortran software written for Vax Fortran on my MicroVax II. The software, incidentally, does service and interference contour plots for broadcast radio stations. I'm going to try to get it to compile under the f77 compiler for Linux...f2c doesn't like the code much at all. But, barring that, it'll probably be easier just to run it on the proper platform. So...can anyone help me to ethically acquire a copy of Vax VMS Fortran that will run under 5.3 VMS? TK50 tape is the most convenient format. On another note...I visited Wichita, KS recently to see Jeff Kaneko there. His wife graciously provided dinner for me and Jeff and I chatted for some time about old machines. Picked up a Vector Graphic S100 box and separate 8" Winchester drive for it. Fairely worthwhile trip considering that S100 boxes are getting VERY rare. Anyway, happy collecting... Anthony Clifton - KC0CUE From altair8800 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 19 00:25:45 1998 From: altair8800 at hotmail.com (Bob Wood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: COMPUTER SPACE REGISTRY Message-ID: <19981019052546.23604.qmail@hotmail.com> Van, You may get a good response if you also post your request to the newsgroup . Bob Wood ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dburrows at netpath.net Sun Oct 18 23:06:28 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <000201bdfb20$4c475370$a60b0b0b@p166> >< I believe that "mmg" is still used as a prefix in medical fields, >< but here it means (as far as I can figure out) "millimicrogram". >< Can someone correct me on this (I'm sure I'm wrong!) > >A friend is a toxicologist and with it isn't PPM it's picograms/liter. > In the environmental testing field PPM, PPB and PPQ for part per quadrillion are standard. Also nanogram, picogram and even femtogram are standard terms for Mass spec. injection amounts. Current Mass spec. detection limits are in the VERY low femtogram quantities. Dan Burrows dburrows@netpath.net From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Oct 18 22:05:07 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: VCF on CNET In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981018200507.039098a0@agora.rdrop.com> At 02:57 PM 10/18/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Yah! The Vintage Computer Festival was immortalized on television. > >It aired on CNET Central on the USA network this morning at 6:00am. You >might be able to catch re-runs of it this week on local stations. Its the >last segment of the show. > ...also, (tho I have not seen the segment yet) CNET placed links to the VCF website and my Computer Garage web site on the CNET Central site. (don't know if the sites were specifically mentioned in the segment) But, a LOT of people have been watching, at least if I can guage anything by the number of emails I have received since yesterday mentioning the CNET segment. I suspect that I'm going to be referring a number of these people to the list, since nearly every one of them has been asking about new homes for old gear! (after I cull out the neat ones of course... B^} ) Overall... COOL! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU Mon Oct 19 00:37:21 1998 From: Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Treasure chest! Message-ID: <9978342@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> I just went through a pile of stuff in the storage room I use for an office, and found the following (which the boss is letting me keep): - complete set of manuals for Lisa OS and 7/7 apps!!! - complete set of original 7/7 disks - Smalltalk pre-beta release version 0.3 for the Mac (is this a port of the Smalltalk that ran on the Xerox PARC? I'm pretty ignorant about that.) - Manuals for Lisa Pascal Workshop - MacWorks manuals - assorted diskettes of old Mac/Lisa stuff Today was a happy day. -- MB From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 19 00:39:38 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <19981019015243.29039.qmail@hotmail.com> (maxeskin@hotmail.com) References: <19981019015243.29039.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <19981019053938.18919.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Max Eskin" wrote: > tried. For example, it would be possible to place transistors at > 1 per cubic inch, and have the cool adequately, but it's clearly > never been attempted, because if it were, there would be boxes > to plug into a PC XT to get Pentium II speeds. What on earth makes you think that you could build an x86 CPU with PII performance out of discrete transistors? It would be very difficult to get even the performance of a 286 out of discrete transistors. The discrete stuff tends to be *MUCH* slower than ICs. For reference, the IBM 7030 (Stretch) had one of the most complex CPUs ever constructed out of discrete transistors; it contained about 169,000 of them. Mind you, that's *only* the CPU; it doesn't include the memory controller, Exchange (I/O channels), Disk Synchronizer, or anything else. That's within an order of magnitude of most of the microprocessors used in today's desktop computers, and even closer if you make it a fair comparison by not counting the transistors that implement the on-chip cache memory. In fact, that's more transistors than a 286 CPU had (*), but AFAIK the 286 had several times more raw CPU performance than the Stretch. The overall packaging density of the Stretch CPU was approximately 0.06 transistors per cubic inch. The power supplies, fans, mounting frames, backplanes, cables, cabinets, etc. take up a lot more room than the transistors. Cheers, Eric (*) Intel's web site claims that the 286 had 134,000 transistors: http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/backgrnd/CN71898A.HTM They also make the completely ridiculous and untrue claim that the 286 was the first microprocessor that offered software compatability with its predecessors. To the best of my knowledge, the Intel 4040 was the first microprocessor to do so, and many others did this as well before the 286 was introduced, such as the Z-80, 8085 and 6802. Perhaps next year the government will declassify the 2nd-generation version of the F-14 computer, so that we can argue about whether it was the first backward-compatible microprocessor. :-) From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 19 00:58:56 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <199810190312.AA06421@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199810190312.AA06421@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19981019055856.18988.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison J Parent > Your unaware of many systems of the 60s that were large on performance > and transistors. Your one transistor per cubic inch is far to low. > I've worked with cordwood modules that were more in the 6 per cubic > inch. Even flat boards were fairly dense. No, one transistor per cubic inch is on the high side (as I describe in a previous posting). Sure, you can make cards that have a dozen discrete transistors per cubic inch (without even going to SOT-23 packages). But you can't build a *system* with that overall density. IBM didn't achieve densities better than one transistor per cubic inch until they switched from SMS cards (discrete components on small printed circuit board modules, similar to DEC R and B series modules) used in the 7000-series computers to SLT (hybrid integrated circuits on ceramic substrates, first used in System/360 in 1964). References: _IBM's Early Computers_ Charles J. Bashe, Lyle R. Hohnson, John H. Palmer, Emerson W. Pugh MIT Press, 1986 (out of print) ** This book is a must-have ** _IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems_ Emerson W. Pugh, Lyle R. Johnson, John H. Palmer MIT Press, 1991 _Memories That Shaped an Industry_ Emerson W. Pugh MIT Press, 1984 _Building IBM: Shaping an Industry and Its Technology_ Emerson W. Pugh MIT Press, 1995 _Planning a Computer System: Project Stretch_ Werner Buchholz, editor McGraw-Hill, 1962 (out of print) _Computer Architecture: Concepts and Evolution_ Gerrit A. Blaauw and Frederick P. Brooks Jr. Addison-Wesley, 1997 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 19 01:31:32 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <19981019053938.18919.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 19 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > Perhaps next year the government will declassify the 2nd-generation version > of the F-14 computer, so that we can argue about whether it was the first > backward-compatible microprocessor. :-) :) Actually, I'm very curious as to what went into the next generation F14 after the the F14A. I would venture to guess that it was a militarized version of a commercial processor. It will be very interesting when it comes out. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Oct 19 03:24:35 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Smalltalk (was Re: Treasure chest!) In-Reply-To: <9978342@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> from "Marion Bates" at Oct 19, 98 01:37:21 am Message-ID: <199810190824.BAA00779@saul3.u.washington.edu> > I just went through a pile of stuff in the storage room I use for an office, > and found the following (which the boss is letting me keep): [...] > - Smalltalk pre-beta release version 0.3 for the Mac (is this a port of the > Smalltalk that ran on the Xerox PARC? I'm pretty ignorant about that.) Well, I've been playing with Smalltalk. (I have the "Blue Book" checked out of the library right now.) I've been reading about the history of Smalltalk too. It could be a port. Xerox wanted to commercialize Smalltalk, so they selected four companies -- Apple, Digital, HP, and Tektronix. Each company would help with Xerox' book editing -- writing documentation is always a lot of work :) -- and would be able to port Smalltalk to their respective work- stations or computers. Describe the disks. Do they have a date? Is the label homemade or not? What are the files on them? (I don't think I would RUN those files without making a copy, though.) BTW, someone mentioned that he had a Tektronix Magnolia. This was one of Tek's workstations of the 80's, and Tek's share of the porting effort was to put Smalltalk on the Magnolia. I would definitely like to find out more about THAT machine. Also, a few years ago Apple wrote a research version of Smalltalk called Squeak. They dropped it (as they tend to do) but Disney took it over. It's freely available. It may be a descendant of Apple's experience with Xerox since it seems to include much of the original Xerox code. See http://www.create.ucsb.edu/squeak/ http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak.1 But I'd still love to play with one of the oroginal 80's implementaions! -- Derek From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 19 05:42:52 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Educational subsidies Message-ID: <199810190923.LAA20221@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> (Mr. Lamb also had two 64s there, sharing a miserably overworked 1541. :-) > The influence of schools on computers is interesting. Atari managed to crack > the German educational system and as a result the best programs for the Atari > ST have come from Germany. I would like to agree, but the situation was quite a bit different. First of all until the end of the 80s there was almost no official state programm to put computers in every school - some schools did it on their own, with city or parrent founding. Around 88/89 all states had programms, but they soly founded IBM alikes. In the early 80s, computers at school have been Comodore. almost nothing else. PETs, CBM 3000's and 4000's. Later on also C64. Some schools (especialy in Bavaria) switched later on for AMIGAs. Atari never had a big hit (beside from single schools) with their STs in education. BUT the ST hits the private and small bussines market in Germany like a Blitz. Low price, good performance and especialy the superior b&w crt made it possible. Later on the SLM widened the gap once more. Until Atari failed to offer real upgrade machines (the Megas where just new cases) Atari has been the single biggest PC manufacturer in the home/small buz market. And with programms like Calamus they hit the DTP market from below (the beautiful b&w crt was just like an invitation)- Apple could have had learend a lesson, but they prefered to shrink their share. > Programs such as Steinbergs Cubase and > E-logic's Notator started out on Ataris partly because of it's music > capabilities but mainly because of it beimg the machine so many Germans began > with. They were both ported to Wintel and Mac. Another example is Calamus the > desktop publishing program. Jep, but the Musik thing was just insired by the build in MIDI ports. Almost instantly after apearing, independant musicians started to develop Software for the ST - lots of them never had any programming experiance at all - just fascinated by the idea to have a free programmable MIDI controler for less than 2000 Mark. Still today, Atari is a must for music making. Ataris 'power without the price' philosopy meets the market completely right. They just failed to dig further for gold. The AMIGA, later on, never catched the ST in the 'professional' market, only in the home/games area - Here Commodore had the advantage of the C64 and the fact that most students had an Commodore (PET, CBM or C64) as first computer in school. > To this day Germany is still the center for most > Atari ST activity and where the new clones are coming out of. Jau - and I'm eagerly waiting for my Milan-060 :) But don't forget about France where Atari is also still strong - And Holland of course. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 19 05:31:02 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) "Re: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190" (Oct 18, 21:17) References: <199810190117.AA26550@world.std.com> Message-ID: <9810191131.ZM2694@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 18, 21:17, Allison J Parent wrote: > Subject: Re: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 > < But this doesn't explain why some units are not common even in scientifi > < fields. Like the millifarad, for example. > > This is because that is an odd size 1000mF (10^-6) is rather uncommon Hmm... If I'd seen that out of context, I'd have assumed it was 1000 millifarads, not microfarads. Over here, we'd write that as "1000?F" (if using ISO 8859-1 or Unicode character set) or possibly "1000uF" ("u" being the ASCII character that looks most like "mu") or possibly even "1000mfd" (often found on old circuits). > when standard values and notation came about. Back then a 50mF cap was > a large value! It was the advent of transistor circuits and their lower > voltage power supplies that 1000mF were common. Then again we see caps > now in the full Farad sizes. 1000mF = 1Farad :-) But I know what you mean. I used to have some old 50mfd 450V caps --and they were big, in those days. > Then again from a womans point of view, it may be that 1400mm sounds > bigger than 5 and a half inches. ;) Err, I think there's an extra "0" in there somewhere, Allison :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 06:46:13 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810191146.AA12420@world.std.com> < But you can't build a *system* with that overall density. Long standing problem but, the military did have machine approacing that density. Consider that once you got over a certain size it was less imporant to be small. < used in the 7000-series computers to SLT (hybrid integrated circuits on < ceramic substrates, first used in System/360 in 1964). Yep. I disagree that a 286 had more raw cpu performance than some of the big transistor machines. I still remember the BOCES/LIRICS KA10 running some 300 users. I've never seen a 286 run more than 4. Same applies to IBM 2060s. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 07:15:21 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <199810191215.AA28513@world.std.com> < Hmm... If I'd seen that out of context, I'd have assumed it was 1000 < millifarads, not microfarads. Over here, we'd write that as "1000=B5F" That was the point. the user of uf instead of MFD was late '60s when I started noticing it. It's still sometimes used. < 1000mF =3D 1Farad :-) But I know what you mean. I used to have some ol < 50mfd 450V caps --and they were big, in those days. I still do. Actually part of the scaling things of capacitor values is related to the way they are used and the math for RF circuits. Also caps are generally two significant digits just like resistors and that is related to the common 20% tolerance applied to them (10% for resistors). I was more used to using number like 10^6 (megahertz) and 10^-12 pF from my RF days. < Err, I think there's an extra "0" in there somewhere, Allison :-) Damm, he lied. Actualy just a dumb typo. ;) Allison From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 19 09:03:16 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810191244.OAA25376@marina.fth.sbs.de> >< used in the 7000-series computers to SLT (hybrid integrated circuits on >< ceramic substrates, first used in System/360 in 1964). > Yep. > I disagree that a 286 had more raw cpu performance than some of the big > transistor machines. I still remember the BOCES/LIRICS KA10 running some > 300 users. I've never seen a 286 run more than 4. Same applies to IBM > 2060s. It's a thruput problem - if the main CPU has to handle every byte in and out, you're just doomed. Just about calculating (Additions per second etc.) a 286 can catch up. It's more about the I/O concepts and devices. Add a versitale IOC and blockmode operations and you could run dozends of users on a 286. Even when using a clumbsy unix like byte orientated OS. And wehn using applications, specialy designed to be aware and operate in blockmode even a hunded might be possible. Ten years ago I designed a small 286 system to act as a terminal/dial up server running a stand alone aplication and accesing a database/transactionsystem running under SIEMENS BS2000 (an /390 compatible system) - in a testrun we had up to 64 users with an accestime below 1s per full screen, with up to 12 concourent requests, even including the mainframe transaction (needed in about 70% of all requests). And still only a CPU usage of less than 20% on a 6 MHz 80286! To be honest, this system had a little helper - all serial I/O has been handled by an I/O subsystem with one Z80 for each two ports - only if a reciving transmission was completed the 286 had to act - and for sending only the data had to be transmited to the Z80 memory window via DMA. The host connection was based on a 230 kbit serial line also operating in a kind of blockmode, using a HDLC like multiplex protocoll. The neat thing was that the OS was just linear and message driven - no real time and no preemptive multitasking. Everything was just so fast that a cooperative sheme did work out quite well. So don't underestimate the power of a micoprocessor. We just bring them unde a yoke, no 'real' processor ever har to carry. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From william at ans.net Mon Oct 19 08:12:58 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <19981019053938.18919.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > What on earth makes you think that you could build an x86 CPU with > PII performance out of discrete transistors? It would be very difficult > to get even the performance of a 286 out of discrete transistors. > The discrete stuff tends to be *MUCH* slower than ICs. The CDC 6600 managed to get about 3 mips...not too bad. The things would really scream (back then, that is) when everything was in the cache. 1966 or so, not an IC in sight... William Donzelli william@ans.net From handyman at sprintmail.com Sun Oct 18 20:32:34 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Kilobaud Magazine References: Message-ID: <362A96B2.4965882A@sprintmail.com> I was going through some old magazine I had stored in my garage and found some of my oldest magazines including Kilobaud Issues number 1 and 2 dated Jan & Feb 1977.. Seems the oldest magazine I have is Byte dated 1976. Phil... From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 19 09:35:35 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <19981019143535.29021.qmail@hotmail.com> > >< But you can't build a *system* with that overall density. > >Long standing problem but, the military did have machine approacing that >density. Consider that once you got over a certain size it was less >imporant to be small. > What about 386s? Did Intel outrun the mainframes with the 386, or were there discrete transistor machines with better performance than that? BTW, what did the Cray I use? >Yep. > >I disagree that a 286 had more raw cpu performance than some of the big >transistor machines. I still remember the BOCES/LIRICS KA10 running some >300 users. I've never seen a 286 run more than 4. Same applies to IBM >2060s. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 19 09:42:47 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 Message-ID: <19981019144247.24766.qmail@hotmail.com> Every so often, people here mention how they wish they had TOPS-20 on their modern computers, how much superior it was to UNIX, etc. COuld someone please explain the specific features (apparent to a user) that are missing in UNIX? If I understand correctly, TOPS takes a less minimalist attitude than UNIX, but since I've never even seen it run, I wouldn't know. If it's not too much trouble, could someone give some examples of interaction that demonstrates the difference? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Oct 19 09:53:09 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <19981019144247.24766.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <13397031714.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Why is TOPS-20 so much better than Unix?] Umm... It runs on a PDP-10? Seriously, now, I like the idea of being able to DETACH CONTINUE something, log in from elsewhere, re-attach my job, and continue without stopping the job (Unless is tries to do TTY I/O, then it has to wait). And, Unix doesn't have ^T. This gets Status. If you think your program has hung or something, pressing ^T does a line like this: 07:49:28 MM IO wait at .TEXT1+17 Used 0:00:21.8 in 2:34:21, Load 0.80 (I just pressed ^T into MM and retyped what it printed) This means that MM is waiting on I/O at .TEXT1+17 (which is a label defined in the program. If you wrote the program, this is significant.) You also get the used CPU and connect times, and the system load. Unix doesn't do this, and I wish it did... Also, if you suddenly decide you want to go poke at your program's interior, you and ^C^C it and say DDT, and (provided you know how to operate DDT) it will snag the program you just stopped and let you play with it. Or, if you do this accidentally, you can say CONTINUE and it will go along like nothing happened. Various other nice things too... ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Oct 19 10:28:47 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Anyone got specs for an Atasi Model 638 HD? Message-ID: <13397038200.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> It's a large MFM device, makes interesting noises, known good, but one of the little animals (students) thought it would be k00l-rad to nuke the CMOS. Anyone got numbers for this thing? ------- From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 19 10:44:59 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 In-Reply-To: <19981018231932.10492.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981019104459.00f766a0@pc> At 04:19 PM 10/18/98 PDT, Max Eskin wrote: > >Has anyone read the book "Innumeracy"? It mostly deals with debunking >the concept of probability, but it is interesting in other respects, >too. Yes, it's delightful. Paulos taught at the university I attended, although I wasn't in his classes. > BTW, would you say 'kilobyte' is a misnomer? THe number it >signifies isn't 10^3, it's 2^10. For a feeble attempt to get back on >topic: was kilobyte always accepted as 1024 bytes? What drives me crazy are the marketroids who round-up twice in order to inflate the capacity of hard drives. At 07:49 PM 10/18/98 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: >Of course, real relays much smaller than a cubic inch are readily available, >and a real computer of that density would have incredible cooling >problems. And you'd need to emulate all the RAM and ROM that's on-chip on a CPU, too. Do you think they count that when they count transistors? - John From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Mon Oct 19 10:49:25 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Let's try this again...8088 for free! In-Reply-To: <361C19D2.F37D121C@allSPAMERSmustDIE.Texas.net> References: <361C18D3.972DAABE@allSPAMERSmustDIE.Texas.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981019104925.00a0e9c0@texas.net> Last chance: I have a Hyundai Super 16 computer (no keyboard or monitor) that I need to get rid of. It has an 8088 processor, an MFM? 5.25 floppy, a full height hard disc, a disc controller card (8-bit), an EGA? video adapter and a dirty case. All I ask is that you cover shipping. I hate to waste something that someone else might be able to use so, if you want it email me at: arfonrg@allSPAMERSmustDIEhorribly.richmond.infi.net Thanks, Arfon From gram at cnct.com Mon Oct 19 10:56:40 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: PC cassette port info References: <3629E172.A7F58ECE@bigfoot.com> <362A1814.26C5E995@rain.org> <362A2B11.DCB53296@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <362B6138.A038F2BF@cnct.com> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Thanks very much. > > Marvin wrote: > > > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > > > > Someone out there had the technical reference for the original IBM PC > > > model 5150. I need the pinout for the cassette port if possible. > > > > Pin 1 - Motor Control > > Pin 2 - Ground > > Pin 3 - Motor Control > > Pin 4 - Data In > > Pin 5 - Data Out > > > > The internal connection on Pin 1 and Pin 3 is a relay with N.O. contacts. And you can still get (nowadays it's usually a special order) a cable that will do the job from any Radio Shack, since it's the same pinout that Tandy had introduced several years before with the TRS-80 later called the Model One. IBM never sold a cassette cable themselves. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From spc at armigeron.com Tue Oct 20 11:48:29 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <13397031714.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Oct 19, 98 07:53:09 am Message-ID: <199810201648.MAA32708@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2484 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/96ebbc07/attachment.ksh From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 19 12:18:16 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 Message-ID: <199810191558.RAA19468@marina.fth.sbs.de> > [Why is TOPS-20 so much better than Unix?] > Umm... It runs on a PDP-10? Thats a Minus..... > Seriously, now, I like the idea of being able to > [DETACH CONTINUE] > [^T] > [^C^C] > [CONTINUE] > Various other nice things too... Tja that's the problem with Unix - minimal service and no inteligence providet :) To support a solution like above, The OS must be aware of the user at all time and special keycodes have to be reserved for the OS. Personaly I also prefere more inteligent OSes - BS2000 for example offers the same functionality. Press the K2 key and the programm is interupted and the OS prompt comes up - get information, even start orther tasks - use any OS command needed (maybe without loading a new programm into your task, since this will destroy the old :). And because the debugger is just a set of OS commands, you're free to poke around ... Sigh. Brave old world :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From deker at digitaladdiction.com Mon Oct 19 11:02:07 1998 From: deker at digitaladdiction.com (Rob Deker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Finds still available in MD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Mark Tapley wrote: > TI-99/4a. In box. The box was bent and crushed a bit but all there. The > unit looked to be in good shape. There was packing materials, manuals, > power supply, rf modulator, speech synth module. It was the silver version. > I didn't test it, but nobody would take that much care with packing > everything back up if it weren't working. I think the tag said $12.90. I > sort of wish I'd grabbed this. > Thanks for the heads-up Mark, I just picked this up (I work about a mile from that store). Also found "Teach yourself BASIC" and "Household Budget Management" carts for $.90 each. rob From william at ans.net Mon Oct 19 11:05:44 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <19981019143535.29021.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > What about 386s? Did Intel outrun the mainframes with the 386, or were > there discrete transistor machines with better performance than that? If one looks at the Linpack benchmark, the CDC 6600 was almost twice as fast as a Sun 386i/250 (info lifted from ). > BTW, what did the Cray I use? The Cray-1s used simple ECL chips - I think there were only four types in the whole machine. William Donzelli william@ans.net From deker at digitaladdiction.com Mon Oct 19 11:05:44 1998 From: deker at digitaladdiction.com (Rob Deker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <13397031714.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Oct 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Seriously, now, I like the idea of being able to DETACH CONTINUE something, > log in from elsewhere, re-attach my job, and continue without stopping the > job (Unless is tries to do TTY I/O, then it has to wait). And, Unix doesn't > You can do this with modern UN*Xes if you've got tcl8.0 installed. It ships with a script called 'dislocate' that allows you to do just that.... hope it helps.... rob From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Oct 19 11:10:37 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <199810191558.RAA19468@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <13397045814.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [TOPS on a PDP-10 is a *MINUS*?] What? You're kidding, right? What is wrong with PDP-10s? ------- From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 19 12:41:20 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 Message-ID: <199810191622.SAA26665@marina.fth.sbs.de> > [TOPS on a PDP-10 is a *MINUS*?] > What? You're kidding, right? What is wrong with PDP-10s? Correction: PDP is a minus not TOPS :) Maybe I'm just not _the_ big fan of the PDPs. Maybe I'm just to /370ish :) Gruss H. P.S.: Unix also runs on PDPs - for better or worse -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From gram at cnct.com Mon Oct 19 11:34:06 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 References: <199810201648.MAA32708@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <362B69FE.8629358C@cnct.com> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > I think what most people lament is that 20 years later, Unix still doesn't > have the user friendliness of TOPS-20 nor are we likely to see anything like > it any time soon. > > -spc (Yea yea yea it could be done, but doing it right (or even reliably) > under Unix is a real pain ... ) Well, nobody's stopping anybody from doing a TOPS-20 lookalike for current hardware. Linus Torvalds did his. (And as the old quote goes, Unix is just as user-friendly as any other operating system, it just isn't so promiscuous about who it's friendly with). You could do a TOPS-20 "shell" over Linux or you can do your own kernel. You decide. Never used TOPS-20 myself, though I'd like to try it sometime, Eric Raymond speaks highly of it even though nowadays he mostly hacks Linux and has even convinced my wife into installing Red Hat onto an otherwise unused Pentium-90 box so she'll learn skills not included in her nursing education. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From baxtertk at dlu.edu Mon Oct 19 11:54:37 1998 From: baxtertk at dlu.edu (Baxter Timothy Keith (baxtertk)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Unsubscribe Message-ID: > ---------- > From: Ward Donald Griffiths III[SMTP:gram@cnct.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, October 19, 1998 11:34 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: TOPS-20 > > Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > > I think what most people lament is that 20 years later, Unix still > doesn't > > have the user friendliness of TOPS-20 nor are we likely to see anything > like > > it any time soon. > > > > -spc (Yea yea yea it could be done, but doing it right (or even > reliably) > > under Unix is a real pain ... ) > > Well, nobody's stopping anybody from doing a TOPS-20 lookalike for > current hardware. Linus Torvalds did his. (And as the old quote > goes, Unix is just as user-friendly as any other operating system, > it just isn't so promiscuous about who it's friendly with). You > could do a TOPS-20 "shell" over Linux or you can do your own kernel. > You decide. Never used TOPS-20 myself, though I'd like to try it > sometime, Eric Raymond speaks highly of it even though nowadays he > mostly hacks Linux and has even convinced my wife into installing > Red Hat onto an otherwise unused Pentium-90 box so she'll learn > skills not included in her nursing education. > -- > Ward Griffiths > > When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any > firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright > From baxtertk at dlu.edu Mon Oct 19 11:54:58 1998 From: baxtertk at dlu.edu (Baxter Timothy Keith (baxtertk)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Unsubscribe Message-ID: > ---------- > From: William Donzelli[SMTP:william@ans.net] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, October 19, 1998 11:05 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: discrete transistors > > > What about 386s? Did Intel outrun the mainframes with the 386, or were > > there discrete transistor machines with better performance than that? > > If one looks at the Linpack benchmark, the CDC 6600 was almost twice as > fast as a Sun 386i/250 (info lifted from > ). > > > BTW, what did the Cray I use? > > The Cray-1s used simple ECL chips - I think there were only four types in > the whole machine. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > From spc at armigeron.com Tue Oct 20 12:52:58 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <362B69FE.8629358C@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Oct 19, 98 12:34:06 pm Message-ID: <199810201752.NAA00178@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 761 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/9a940194/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Oct 19 12:47:20 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Anyone got specs for an Atasi Model 638 HD? References: <13397038200.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <362B7B27.3032FBD@bigfoot.com> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > It's a large MFM device, makes interesting noises, known good, but > one of the little animals (students) thought it would be k00l-rad to nuke > the CMOS. Anyone got numbers for this thing? > ------- Ahh rubberheads.....here's the poop on the drive but since it's ESDI the CMOS should just be set to drive type 1, or type 0 if it were a SCSI. Atasi 638 338mb ESDI, 18ms access, 5.25" FH, 1225 cylinders, 15 heads, 36 sectors per track, autopark. Try setting the cmos drive type to 1 for drive 1 and see how that works for you first. ESDI is supposed to communicate with the controller, much like SCSI and MCA so it shouldn't need info like MFM and RLL. Russ Blakeman Harned, KY USA From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 19 13:35:14 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <19981019183514.21817.qmail@hotmail.com> In fact, it seems there are mainframes faster than even a 486-33. So, I guess Intel outran the mainframe systems only recently. > >If one looks at the Linpack benchmark, the CDC 6600 was almost twice as >fast as a Sun 386i/250 (info lifted from >). > >> BTW, what did the Cray I use? > >The Cray-1s used simple ECL chips - I think there were only four types in >the whole machine. > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 19 13:38:49 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 Message-ID: <19981019183849.11589.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, that's just what I was asking about. What do you mean by 'user friendliness'? A built-in debugger is not high on my list of user-friendly features. Also, how is the TOPS base 'stronger' than UNIX? Does it have more calls, or what? >> [Why is TOPS-20 so much better than Unix?] >> >> Umm... It runs on a PDP-10? >> >> Seriously, now, I like the idea of being able to DETACH CONTINUE something, >> log in from elsewhere, re-attach my job, and continue without stopping the >> job (Unless is tries to do TTY I/O, then it has to wait). > > Well, to be technical, there is a program for Unix to do this called >`screen'. It's actually pretty nice in that it gives you 10 virtual >terminals, allowing you to switch between them (Ctrl-A ) and >cut-n-paste as well (defaults to using vi keybindings---use Unix enough and >you'll get used to it). You can also detach the session and reconnect to it >later (and the program will continue to run even if it does TTY I/O). > >> And, Unix doesn't >> have ^T. This gets Status. If you think your program has hung or something, >> pressing ^T does a line like this: >> 07:49:28 MM IO wait at .TEXT1+17 Used 0:00:21.8 in 2:34:21, Load 0.80 >> (I just pressed ^T into MM and retyped what it printed) >> This means that MM is waiting on I/O at .TEXT1+17 (which is a label defined >> in the program. If you wrote the program, this is significant.) >> You also get the used CPU and connect times, and the system load. >> Unix doesn't do this, and I wish it did... > > That's more a function of the shell than anything else. I think there is >a Unix shell that will do that (or could be told to do that). Granted, if >you're in some other program it won't work. > >> Also, if you suddenly decide you want to go poke at your program's interior, >> you and ^C^C it and say DDT, and (provided you know how to operate DDT) it >> will snag the program you just stopped and let you play with it. Or, if you >> do this accidentally, you can say CONTINUE and it will go along like >> nothing happened. > > Now that is a nice feature, and it might be possible to munge that into >Unix as well. But that's the main problem with Unix---all these features >are munged onto a pretty weak base and people have gone so long without >these features that Unix weenies tend to dismiss them as breaking the >`simplicity' of Unix (brain death is more like it 8-) > > I think what most people lament is that 20 years later, Unix still doesn't >have the user friendliness of TOPS-20 nor are we likely to see anything like >it any time soon. > > -spc (Yea yea yea it could be done, but doing it right (or even reliably) > under Unix is a real pain ... ) > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From william at ans.net Mon Oct 19 13:45:55 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <19981019183514.21817.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > In fact, it seems there are mainframes faster than even a 486-33. > So, I guess Intel outran the mainframe systems only recently. As far as discrete transistor machines (2nd generation), I would think that a 486 would be faster in terms of both CPU and I/O horsepower. Remember that mainframes do not always have super fast CPUs - they do not need them. Their forte is I/O, where even old ones fair pretty well compared to modern stuff. One example seen quite a bit on USENET is "my Pentium is just as fast as a Cray-1. Gee, how things have progressed.". Sure, a Dell Pentium machine might be plenty fast by the book, but simply put, it could not even come close to sustaining that speed (140 Mflops for the Cray-1). A superfast CPU will always loose to slow I/O. Its all in the architecture... William Donzelli william@ans.net From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 14:00:33 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810191900.AA16161@world.std.com> < So don't underestimate the power of a micoprocessor. We < just bring them unde a yoke, no 'real' processor ever < har to carry. Oh, I don't. I've said Z80s are not as shabby as some of the latterday retrorevisionists would think. I've never seen a i286 running anything (OS) that really used all the raw power in any useful way other than in embedded tasks. That view come from mostly ISA bus PC implementations while interesting are really not best possible performance. At the other end of the line there were some monster transistor based systems that offered stellar performance at a price. Some of the SSI (small scale integration) IC machines of the late 60s bumped up those numbers or shrank/lowered their cost. Allison From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 19 14:01:52 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Another Pet 2001 References: Message-ID: <362B8CA0.4778690B@rain.org> As is somewhat expected, another Pet 2001 has appeared on ebay. The closing time is about 5pm PST, and the URL is From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 19 14:06:49 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Another Pet 2001 References: <362B8CA0.4778690B@rain.org> Message-ID: <362B8DC8.B4BBBEDA@rain.org> OOPS, went to paste in the URL and accidentally hit "Send". Hmmm, it is a but humorous though given the last batch of comments about sending HTML, also a mistake! Anyway, the URL is: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=35473354 Marvin wrote: > > As is somewhat expected, another Pet 2001 has appeared on ebay. The closing > time is about 5pm PST, and the URL is From spc at armigeron.com Tue Oct 20 15:00:27 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <19981019183849.11589.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Oct 19, 98 11:38:49 am Message-ID: <199810202000.QAA01233@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2547 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/2150c587/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Oct 19 14:10:28 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <19981019183849.11589.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <13397078556.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [BEtter examples?] I dunno, I just like it. Maybe you should see it for yourself? Bother xkladmin@paulallen.com for an account on xkleten.paulallen.com and check it out yourself. ------- From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 19 14:14:38 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Computer construction book References: <362B8CA0.4778690B@rain.org> <362B8DC8.B4BBBEDA@rain.org> Message-ID: <362B8F9E.B40DEBE8@rain.org> Some interesting stuff on ebay right now! I would normally bid on this, but am going to hold my reins in a bit right now. This book closes about 7pm PST tonight and current price is $7.51. Looks like a good addition to someones old computer library. The URL is: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=35514035 From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Oct 19 14:17:50 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <199810202000.QAA01233@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <13397079897.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Has anyone USED TOPS-20?] I'm using it, right now. To send this message. ------- From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Oct 19 14:26:59 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Plessey Periph. Clone Message-ID: Re: Tim Shoppa's last message. When I had this machine running, it would attempt to boot from the Floppy (when asked to do so from ODT). The problem at the time (which still exists) was I had no bootable media in said floppy drive, thereby eliciting continued head loads, at about the tempo of a dirge. Clic, read, 'nothing here...' clic, read, 'nothing here...' clic, read.... Had I known Then what I know Now (grateful thanks to Tim and Megan and Allison) I could have made a bootable disk on one of the other machines, and gotten it going. Aaron's problem is classic Catch 22... and I have just now freed up some weekend time to perhaps assist him in that regard. Note to Aaron: the Docs you gave me are In Process, and will be returned to you when complete. Cheers John From kevan at heydon.org Mon Oct 19 14:27:07 1998 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, I wrote: > > It would be interesting just to see how many collectors in the UK (and > mainland Europe) would be interested in going to a UK VCF. > > If you are, then reply to me directly at kevan@heydon.org and answer these > questions: > > Would you be interested? > Where do you live? (just a rough idea of where would be best.) > Do you have anything interesting that you could show / talk about? > > I'll summarise the results when the replies dry up. > Well the replies never really got started. I only got five replies, all said they were interested. I can only conclude that there are not that many UK collectors on this list. -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Oct 19 14:34:49 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:28 2005 Subject: Computer construction book References: <362B8CA0.4778690B@rain.org> <362B8DC8.B4BBBEDA@rain.org> <362B8F9E.B40DEBE8@rain.org> Message-ID: <362B9458.C725284@bigfoot.com> Marvin wrote: > Some interesting stuff on ebay right now! I would normally bid on this, but > am going to hold my reins in a bit right now. This book closes about 7pm > PST tonight and current price is $7.51. Looks like a good addition to > someones old computer library. The URL is: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=35514035 And I gave one of those away last year, enough to tighten your shorts around the family jewels and squeeze. If anyone should have occasion to want to bid on an item being sold by "XTHECOLLECTOR" be either very careful or just don't bid on it. He shouldn't even be on their since he's a minor and he's flukey in his dealings with people. I sold him a cherry Compaq laptop that he took nearly a month to send payment for, and then asked how he needed to go about sending it back for a refund as it "wasn't what he thought it was" even though he bid on it 4 times in the last 6 minutes before it closed. No mention of guarantee, refund, etc was made and when I reminded him of this he put negative feedback on me. I returned the favor to inform the world of his business morals but he blocked his feedback from view. Too much trouble for a lousy $50 on a decent laptop and full accessories. I'd rather deal with people I know and even trade in many cases. That way someone that appreciates good equipment gets it rather than a bonehead teenager that thinks he can buy a Pentium notebook for $50 (that isn't stolen anyway). Enough ranting, back to the oldies but goodies. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Oct 19 14:38:21 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Belly laugh on eBay Message-ID: This item description on eBay says it all: 36111353 Collectible IBM PS/1 Type 2011 BWAHAHAHAHA! Kai From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 19 12:37:42 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Odd Meas. Units In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Oct 18, 98 07:32:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 394 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981019/b606a257/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 19 12:32:48 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: RX50's on a PC? In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Oct 18, 98 05:18:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1847 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981019/1f0fc9f0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 19 12:50:52 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981019104459.00f766a0@pc> from "John Foust" at Oct 19, 98 10:44:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1158 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981019/f7d1da6c/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Mon Oct 19 14:49:00 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: RIP Jon Postel In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981018001517.0095b100@mail.jps.net> Message-ID: > Perhaps that was uncalled for, perhaps not. I still believe that > the single biggest mistake in the entire history of the Internet was made > when NSF threw open the barn doors wide, as it were, with absolutely zero > consideration of who might be infesting the thing. The NSF did not do it, the courts did. William Donzelli william@ans.net From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 15:12:04 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190/thread drift Message-ID: <199810192012.AA24832@world.std.com> < What do you mean it was done with 386s? There were boards to put 386s in XT machines. I have one, an Intel inboard386pc. It replaces the 8088 (the 8088 has to be removed). There were others made. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 15:12:11 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810192012.AA24917@world.std.com> < What about 386s? Did Intel outrun the mainframes with the 386, or were Eventually, the early 386s were only 16mhz! < there discrete transistor machines with better performance than that? < BTW, what did the Cray I use? A lot 300+ boards of ECL logic. ECL was the fasest of the fast for that time and it's density was relatively low. It was so densely packed that the cooling was embedded refrigeration! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 15:12:18 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 Message-ID: <199810192012.AA25057@world.std.com> < Every so often, people here mention how they wish they had TOPS-20 < on their modern computers, how much superior it was to UNIX, etc. < COuld someone please explain the specific features (apparent to a < user) that are missing in UNIX? If I understand correctly, TOPS takes It's been 27 years since I ran TOPS10 but the differences can be summed up as a better human interface at the command line level. I've always considered the unix command line userhostile. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 15:12:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 Message-ID: <199810192012.AA25174@world.std.com> < > [TOPS on a PDP-10 is a *MINUS*?] < < > What? You're kidding, right? What is wrong with PDP-10s? From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 15:12:33 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810192012.AA25304@world.std.com> < From: William Donzelli < < Sure, a Dell Pentium machine might be plenty fast by the book, but simpl < put, it could not even come close to sustaining that speed (140 Mflops f < the Cray-1). A superfast CPU will always loose to slow I/O. < < Its all in the architecture... yes, steaming along at 140MFLOPS only to slam into the IO bus that if ISA *may* be able to sustain 16mb/s. PCI may be faster, I'd suspect in the 30+mb/s range (unknown to me). Anyhow being able to gind lots of numbers is limited by memory bandwidth and maybe disk IO bandwidth and PCs are not notably fast in that depatment. Cray and those other machines were possibly a bit slower but they didn't have that I/O bottlenecks. Allison From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 19 15:19:06 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: IBM AT Piggyback Memory References: <199810202000.QAA01233@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <362B9EBA.D74807C3@rain.org> In rummage through the dark recesses of my garage (too densly packed to let in light) I again ran across an IBM AT motherboard that used the piggyback memory chips. Were there any other computers that used these things? Also, does anyone know the numbers of the two chips that were soldered together? From Marty at itgonline.com Mon Oct 19 15:49:48 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: IBM AT Piggyback Memory Message-ID: <1998Oct19.164751.1767.149445@smtp.itgonline.com> I've never seen any other pc that used these 128k (64k dip dram piggy-backed) chips. Regarding the numbers of the chips, they were standard 64k dip drams, the IBM part number is long lost on me. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: IBM AT Piggyback Memory Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/19/98 4:22 PM In rummage through the dark recesses of my garage (too densly packed to let in light) I again ran across an IBM AT motherboard that used the piggyback memory chips. Were there any other computers that used these things? Also, does anyone know the numbers of the two chips that were soldered together? ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct19.162239.1767.70774; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:22:39 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id NAA09647; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:20:38 -0700 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id NAA50650 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:20:26 -0700 Received: from coyote.rain.org (root@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id NAA31 532 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:20:24 -0700 Received: from rain.org (s14.max2.sb.rain.org [198.68.144.197]) by coyote.rain.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA11746 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <362B9EBA.D74807C3@rain.org> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:19:06 -0700 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Marvin To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: IBM AT Piggyback Memory References: <199810202000.QAA01233@armigeron.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From Marty at itgonline.com Mon Oct 19 15:49:54 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Belly laugh on eBay Message-ID: <1998Oct19.164751.1767.149446@smtp.itgonline.com> That wasn't the first p of s IBM delivered. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Belly laugh on eBay Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/19/98 3:40 PM This item description on eBay says it all: 36111353 Collectible IBM PS/1 Type 2011 BWAHAHAHAHA! Kai ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct19.154052.1767.70755; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:40:52 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id MAA25925; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:34 -0700 Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA19986 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:26 -0700 Received: from mail5.microsoft.com (mail5.microsoft.com [131.107.3.121]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id MAA17 074 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:26 -0700 Received: by INET-IMC-05 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:22 -0700 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:21 -0700 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Kai Kaltenbach To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Belly laugh on eBay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From gram at cnct.com Mon Oct 19 16:07:57 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: IBM AT Piggyback Memory References: <199810202000.QAA01233@armigeron.com> <362B9EBA.D74807C3@rain.org> Message-ID: <362BAA2C.131889BE@cnct.com> Marvin wrote: > > In rummage through the dark recesses of my garage (too densly packed to let > in light) I again ran across an IBM AT motherboard that used the piggyback > memory chips. Were there any other computers that used these things? Also, > does anyone know the numbers of the two chips that were soldered together? Well, before the official version came out, lots of TRS-80 Color Computers were upgraded from 16k to 32k via piggybacking, since 4164 RAMS were so much more expensive than doubled-up 4116's. Note that this was _not_ supported by Tandy Corporation, but the first one I saw was done in the repair shop of the Radio Shack Computer Center where I was teaching at the time. I seem to recall that a few Sinclairs were upgraded similarly, though it made it hard to get the case back together. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 19 16:13:20 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Treasure chest! In-Reply-To: <9978342@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> (Marion.Bates@Dartmouth.EDU) References: <9978342@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <19981019211320.22644.qmail@brouhaha.com> Marion Bates wrote: > - Smalltalk pre-beta release version 0.3 for the Mac (is this a port of the > Smalltalk that ran on the Xerox PARC? I'm pretty ignorant about that.) Yes, but it's been pretty heavily "Macified". I'm still looking for a copies of any of the SmallTalk-80 release tapes that Xerox provided their licensees. From mbg at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 16:28:30 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 Message-ID: <199810192128.AA07151@world.std.com> > Well, to be technical, there is a program for Unix to do this called >`screen'. It's actually pretty nice in that it gives you 10 virtual >terminals, allowing you to switch between them (Ctrl-A ) and >cut-n-paste as well (defaults to using vi keybindings---use Unix enough >and you'll get used to it). You can also detach the session and >reconnect to it later (and the program will continue to run even if it >does TTY I/O). Sorry, this doesn't make it at all... the original poster was talking about the ability to detach a job from a controlling tty, but having it continue running. And at a later time, from an entirely different terminal, allowing the user to reattach that detached job to a new controlling terminal - in fact, you are given the option of attaching to the detached job when you log in, so you don't have to log into a new session, then attach the job. > That's more a function of the shell than anything else. I think there >is a Unix shell that will do that (or could be told to do that). >Granted, if you're in some other program it won't work. actually, it was implemented at a lower level - the terminal input interrupt service. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 19 16:21:23 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Smalltalk (was Re: Treasure chest!) In-Reply-To: <199810190824.BAA00779@saul3.u.washington.edu> (dpeschel@u.washington.edu) References: <199810190824.BAA00779@saul3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19981019212123.22685.qmail@brouhaha.com> D. Peschel" wrote: > BTW, someone mentioned that he had a Tektronix Magnolia. This was one of > Tek's workstations of the 80's, and Tek's share of the porting effort was to > put Smalltalk on the Magnolia. I would definitely like to find out more > about THAT machine. I'm not sure which machine the Magnolia is. I've got a Tek 4406. The 4405 and 4406 were 68020-based version of the earlier Tek 4404 (68010) workstation, which was intended for AI applications. Tek offered Smalltalk and LISP. Originally the 440x machines ran a Unix clone (Coherent?). But later they switched to UTek, their own port of BSD 4.1. UTek requires a newer boot rom, though the new rom can boot the old OS as well. I don't have the LISP, but the Smalltalk is definitely based on the Xerox ST80 image with some Tek improvements. And of course Tek wrote their own virtual machine to run it. The 440x have a SCSI interface to an external box containing SCSI-to-floppy and SCSI-to-ST506 bridges. The SCSI-to-floppy bridge was actually developed by Tek, although I've heard that some of the OEM bridges will work. Unfortunately mine is broken. I'm using an 88M Syquest in place of the original hard drive. Since UTek is based on BSD 4.1, it doesn't understand IP subnetting. Fortunately I have a router that can be configured to proxy ARP for addresses outside the local subnet. Cheers, Eric From mbg at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 16:36:17 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 Message-ID: <199810192136.AA14256@world.std.com> >>[Has anyone USED TOPS-20?] > >I'm using it, right now. To send this message. I've used TOPS-20 in the past, and recently got a guest account on a -20 based system. I have to admit I prefer TOPS-10 over TOPS-20 any day, but reasons why could inflame a 'religious' war... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 16:38:31 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Odd Meas. Units Message-ID: <199810192138.AA16634@world.std.com> >> I used to know the speed of light in Furlongs per Fortnight. > >The attoparsec/microfortnight is remarkably close to the inch/second. >Quite useful for quoting tape speeds :-) IIRC, the GT40 lunar lander program had comments about measuring things in furlongs per fortnight. I'll have to check the source... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 19 16:32:03 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <199810191146.AA12420@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199810191146.AA12420@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19981019213203.22733.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > I disagree that a 286 had more raw cpu performance than some of the big > transistor machines. I still remember the BOCES/LIRICS KA10 running some > 300 users. I've never seen a 286 run more than 4. Same applies to IBM > 2060s. I never said that there were NO discrete transistor machines that could outperform a 286. I cited an example of a specific very large discrete-transistor machine made in 1962 which the 286 can outperform on many tasks. My point was that the larger a discrete-transistor machine is, the more difficult it is to make it run fast. Number of users supported is not a reasonable benchmark of raw CPU performance. The KA10 was nearly two orders of magnitude simpler than the Stretch CPU. Yet it was faster than the Stretch for some things. However, this is not too surprising since the Stretch was IBM's first attempt at designing a transistor-based computer. The 7090 and several other IBM transistor-based computers shipped before Stretch, but those designs were started later and were based on the circuit and packaging technology developed for Stretch. My entire point was that it is essentially impossible to build a discrete-transistor machine compatible with a modern high-end single-chip microprocessor (such as a Pentium II) and achieve better performance than the single-chip implementation. In fact, even using SSI and MSI integrated circuits will not get you there. Eric From spc at armigeron.com Tue Oct 20 17:30:40 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <199810192128.AA07151@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Oct 19, 98 05:28:30 pm Message-ID: <199810202230.SAA01717@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1268 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/1fef972a/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 19 16:35:43 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:12:58 -0400 References: Message-ID: <19981019213543.22773.qmail@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > The CDC 6600 managed to get about 3 mips...not too bad. The things > would really scream (back then, that is) when everything was in the > cache. 1966 or so, not an IC in sight... Yes, and again that proves my point. A discrete transistor based computer can not compete with a high-end monolithic microprocessor. The laws of physics conspire against it. Motorola claims to have started shipping ECL integrated circuits in 1962. Why were people still building computers using discrete transistors for years after that? Many of the high-end computers used discrete implementations of non-saturating logic that was very similar to ECL. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 19 16:38:36 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <19981019143535.29021.qmail@hotmail.com> (maxeskin@hotmail.com) References: <19981019143535.29021.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <19981019213836.22810.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Max Eskin" wrote: > What about 386s? Did Intel outrun the mainframes with the 386, or were > there discrete transistor machines with better performance than that? The raw CPU performance of thet 386 exceeds that of many (but not all) of the discrete-transistor mainframes (and even IBM's SLT-based mainframes). However, system-level performance is another matter. How many 386 machines had intelligent I/O channels, *AND* took full advantage of them? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 19 14:44:28 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?) In-Reply-To: from "Kevan Heydon" at Oct 19, 98 12:27:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 493 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981019/44c7aa07/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 19 16:48:41 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <13397031714.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <13397031714.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <19981019214841.22861.qmail@brouhaha.com> Someone asked: > [Why is TOPS-20 so much better than Unix?] "Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote: > I like the idea of being able to DETACH CONTINUE something, > log in from elsewhere, re-attach my job, and continue without stopping the > job (Unless is tries to do TTY I/O, then it has to wait). Which is available under Unix using the 'screen' program. 'Screen' may not be part of the operating system, but it is widely recognized these days that implementing things in user space instead of a monolithic kernel is often a win (in cases where it doesn't seriously harm system throughput). > Also, if you suddenly decide you want to go poke at your program's interior, > you and ^C^C it and say DDT, and (provided you know how to operate DDT) it > will snag the program you just stopped and let you play with it. Or, if you > do this accidentally, you can say CONTINUE and it will go along like > nothing happened. Under Unix you can do the same thing. Just hit control-Z to suspend the job, fire up GDB, and attach to it. I like TOPS-20, but many of the capabilities that I liked are available in Unix. They weren't available in Unix 20 years ago, but OTOH 20 years ago a full Unix system would fit on an RK05. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 19 16:54:13 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <19981019183514.21817.qmail@hotmail.com> (maxeskin@hotmail.com) References: <19981019183514.21817.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <19981019215413.22890.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Max Eskin" wrote: > In fact, it seems there are mainframes faster than even a 486-33. > So, I guess Intel outran the mainframe systems only recently. Irrelevant to the discussion for two reasons: 1) No one has made mainframes out of discrete transistors since the late 60s. 2) Almost all modern mainframes are based on monolithic microprocessors. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 19 16:58:11 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:45:55 -0400 References: Message-ID: <19981019215811.22923.qmail@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > As far as discrete transistor machines (2nd generation), I would think > that a 486 would be faster in terms of both CPU and I/O horsepower. A 486 is certainly faster in terms of CPU horsepower. But a 486 has no I/O horsepower whatsoever. Nor does any sort of Pentium. It's certainly *possible* to add intelligent I/O channels to an x86 machine. And there have been attempts at it. But I2O notwithstanding, the closest that you'll find in real x86 systems is bus-mastering IDE, SCSI, and Ethernet controllers. From amc358 at interserv.com Mon Oct 19 17:08:54 1998 From: amc358 at interserv.com (Albert McCann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Kilobaud Magazine In-Reply-To: <362A96B2.4965882A@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: <000501bdfbad$142dc5e0$d3f4aec7@albertj> > On Sunday, October 18, 1998 9:33 PM, CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > wrote: > I was going through some old magazine I had stored in my > garage and found some > of my oldest magazines including Kilobaud Issues number 1 and > 2 dated Jan & Feb > 1977.. > Seems the oldest magazine I have is Byte dated 1976. A chance reading of messages in the hardware forum on Compuserve brought me a bunch of old mags. A very nice gentleman was looking for a home for older computer magazines. I got _every_ issue of Kilobaud / Microcomputing, and about the first four years of Byte, a bunch of Micro Systems Journal and Dr. Dobbs, and some other odds and ends. All for free. Only problem is they are a bit moldy, which is causing allergy problems... Al McCann From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 19 17:06:16 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: IBM AT Piggyback Memory In-Reply-To: <362B9EBA.D74807C3@rain.org> (message from Marvin on Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:19:06 -0700) References: <199810202000.QAA01233@armigeron.com> <362B9EBA.D74807C3@rain.org> Message-ID: <19981019220616.22967.qmail@brouhaha.com> Marvin wrote: > In rummage through the dark recesses of my garage (too densly packed to let > in light) I again ran across an IBM AT motherboard that used the piggyback > memory chips. Were there any other computers that used these things? The Apple /// 128K memory board used 32 pieces of standard 16K DRAM, and 16 pieces of 32K (stacked 16K) DRAMs. Several TI calculators including the TI-58 and TI-59 use stacked DIPs for RAM. The HP-41CX calculator uses stacked DIPs for ROM and RAM. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 19 17:08:02 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: IBM AT Piggyback Memory In-Reply-To: <1998Oct19.164751.1767.149445@smtp.itgonline.com> (Marty@itgonline.com) References: <1998Oct19.164751.1767.149445@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <19981019220802.22986.qmail@brouhaha.com> Marty@itgonline.com (Marty) writes: > I've never seen any other pc that used these 128k (64k dip dram > piggy-backed) chips. Regarding the numbers of the chips, they were > standard 64k dip drams, the IBM part number is long lost on me. The 64K DRAM dies were of course standard, but weren't they packaged in 18-pin DIPs rather than the usual 16-pin, so that the top and bottom parts could have their RAS and/or CAS lines bonded out to different pins? If you just stack two normal DRAMs, you don't get anything useful. Eric From mbg at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 17:18:08 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 Message-ID: <199810192218.AA23999@world.std.com> > Uh, screen does in fact allow you to do this. Sorry, from your description it didn't sound like it would do it at all... I'll have to take a look at it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 19 17:18:54 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <199810192218.AA23999@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981019171854.00f138c0@pc> At 06:18 PM 10/19/98 -0400, Megan wrote: > >> Uh, screen does in fact allow you to do this. > >Sorry, from your description it didn't sound like it would do >it at all... I'll have to take a look at it... Sounds like Unix 'fg' and 'bg', unless I'm missing something... With the hordes under Unix these days, could it ever be possible that someone hasn't implemented, re-implemented and hacked almost every feature that's already existed in a previous OS? - John From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Oct 19 17:32:06 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Mainframes vs PCs (was Re: discrete transistors) In-Reply-To: <199810192012.AA25304@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810192225.PAA15848@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Ok folks, its true that mainframes typically have had better I/O bandwidth to their disk farms but that has changed. The PCI bus can and does sustain greater than 100 Mb/s over it. The "old" PCI bus spec had it at 33Mhz * 4bytes/write for 120Mbs and a properly designed PC can run the bus at 66Mhz these days giving an opportunity for 240Mbs. AGP does somewhat better. Now ISA does suck dead gophers through a garden hose, and that was why we saw VLB, MicroChannel, and PCI. Another thing that mainframes use that PC's typically didn't were channel controllers. Those dedicated CPUs that sit on the Memory bus and blit things into and out of memory rather than bothering the CPU with all that. To facilitate this the mainframes typically have fairly complex snooping caches for effective management of paging activity. The Crays and ConnectionMachines have, in the past, had the advantage of being vector processors where typical mainframes were often SIMD machines at best and simple pipelines at worst. Microprocessors caught up with the SIMD wave with multi-ALU pipelining, and with the Katmai and AMD-K7 they will get many of the vector features that made so-called "super computers" so fast. If you build a "PC" (Pentium II class) with 256MB of SDRAM and dual PCI based fast/wide SCSI controllers running to a striped RAID array of "good" SCSI disks you can "beat" a lot of mainframes. Of course you best them with a $10,000 PC. Back to classic computers, it has been said, perhaps apocryphylly(sp?), that "My laptop has more computer power than NASA used to put men on the moon." While it may be true, I've never actually seen a description of the computer resources available to NASA between 1962 and 1969. Does anyone on the list have that information? --Chuck From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Oct 19 17:43:22 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <19981019213203.22733.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199810191146.AA12420@world.std.com> <199810191146.AA12420@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810192236.PAA10045@mxu4.u.washington.edu> At 09:32 PM 10/19/98 +0000, you wrote: >My entire point was that it is essentially impossible to build a >discrete-transistor machine compatible with a modern high-end single-chip >microprocessor (such as a Pentium II) and achieve better performance than the >single-chip implementation. In fact it is physically impossible period. A 400Mhz Pentium II has a 2.5ns base CPU clock frequency. To consider a circuit a 'lump' one would have to keep the circuit under 2.5' (speed of light limit) in size. Using a sphere 2.5' in diameter and 10,000,000 transistors that means you would need your transistors to use less than .0001 cubic inch of space each. It isn't going to happen. The whole reason Cray's are wired up as circles rather than linearly like a mainframe is to reduce wire lengths (and with them speed of light delays). --Chuck From kevan at heydon.org Mon Oct 19 17:39:45 1998 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > I assume mine was one of them... If not, then it got lost in the system. Yours was there. > I think this shows that organising a UK-VCF would be a bad idea at the > moment. And for me to organise one, losing all the money I'd have to put > in would be a very bad idea. > > Oh well. It would have been an interesting idea. Yeah, and given the geographic spread of the people that did reply, even a pub meet would be out of the question. -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 19 16:59:26 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: IBM AT Piggyback Memory In-Reply-To: <362B9EBA.D74807C3@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Oct 19, 98 01:19:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1973 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981019/647ddc1a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 19 17:12:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Odd Meas. Units In-Reply-To: <199810192138.AA16634@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Oct 19, 98 05:38:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 411 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981019/124cafc4/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 19 17:42:54 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190/thread drift Message-ID: <19981019224255.13475.qmail@hotmail.com> What I meant was, if discrete transistors could be used, a small cube of which would equal a Pentium II in transistor number, it would be possible to make a Pentium II box to plug into an XT in 1982. Of course, I hadn't considered at the time I said it that it would be very slow, and speed is the main difference between an earlier machine and a Pentium. >There were boards to put 386s in XT machines. I have one, an Intel >inboard386pc. It replaces the 8088 (the 8088 has to be removed). There >were others made. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 19 17:47:01 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Odd Meas. Units Message-ID: <19981019224702.19768.qmail@hotmail.com> Wait...all matter resists current, and all matter can be forced to emit light, so any item is a 'Light-emmitting resistor'. > >> I used to know the speed of light in Furlongs per Fortnight. > >The attoparsec/microfortnight is remarkably close to the inch/second. >Quite useful for quoting tape speeds :-) > >> >> If you wish to piss off the counter help at your local parts >> shop... ask for a 'Light-Emitting Resistor'. Hardware stores and >> markets have them too. > >You mean a light-emitting non-linear load? > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 19 17:46:36 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981019171854.00f138c0@pc> (message from John Foust on Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:18:54 -0500) References: <3.0.1.32.19981019171854.00f138c0@pc> Message-ID: <19981019224636.23219.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Foust wrote: > Sounds like Unix 'fg' and 'bg', unless I'm missing something... Not good enough. You can 'bg' a job, but you can't log out, log in somewhere else, and 'fg' the job there. Screen takes care of this. It also takes care of the fact that you might have a VT100 in one place and an ADM3 in the other; it presents a uniform virtual terminal to the applications, and maps it to your actual terminal. And, you don't have to explicitly detach. Screen will catch SIGHUP and detach your session. Great for flaky internet connections. And, if you forget to detach your session when you leave work, and only discover this when you get home, you can remotely detach and reattach it. > With the hordes under Unix these days, could it ever be possible > that someone hasn't implemented, re-implemented and hacked almost > every feature that's already existed in a previous OS? Yup! Most of the better features of Multics, Tenex, TOPS-10, TOPS-20, and other OSes have been added to Unix. One could argue that the TOPS-20 command line parsing features that everyone seemed to like so much must not actually be too valuable, since no one has bothered to reimplement them (except Cisco). Eric From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 17:55:29 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810192255.AA22660@world.std.com> < can not compete with a high-end monolithic microprocessor. The laws of < physics conspire against it. They do. There are ways around that. Tricks like massively parallel or very wide words to name a few. < Motorola claims to have started shipping ECL integrated circuits in 1962 In 1967 I got my first MECL 1000 parts to play with as they had dropped to hobby prices, still have a few. They were difficult to work with and fast by any standrd then. FYI: I was applying them as linear devices. I do know for sure that in '64 those parts existed but they were somthing like $20-30 each. Then again I remember seeing the infamous 709 opamp the early 60s at $120 each! I may add that a friend gave me the "engineering junkbox" from his company in 1968 and the parts in there besides transistors included RTL (914, 923, MC7xx) and a few opamps of the 709/741 series. I learned a lot working with those parts. I was only lucky kid! < Why were people still building computers using discrete transistors for < years after that? Many of the high-end computers used discrete < implementations of non-saturating logic that was very similar to ECL. The bias points for ECL were hard to control and level shifts were a source of errors. Also they were more expensive than RTL and the DTL (pre ttl) parts. Also ECL requires transmission line style layout and that would not be widely adopted until three or more layer PCBs would be in use. There were also those that objected to the power required by ECL and it's resulting heat (back to the bias shift problem). The problem is once ICs made an appearance in the mid 60s they were being used but only where cost justified them (they werent cheap! nor were they fast!). Another item forgotten is the design cycles were measured in years then, so by time the massive transistor machines started running the SSI ICs were starting down the price curve. In practical terms the first massive transistor machine was the TX2 an experimental one of a kind. It would only about 10 years later when the first IC machines started appearing in the late '60. By then the 1nS/ft propagation limit was becomming obvious to designers (ask Cray!). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 17:55:38 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810192255.AA22783@world.std.com> < A 486 is certainly faster in terms of CPU horsepower. But a 486 < has no I/O horsepower whatsoever. Nor does any sort of Pentium. Problem with most all of the high power processors. The VAX series were only ok in that respect and were better if there were external IOPs. < It's certainly *possible* to add intelligent I/O channels to an x86 mach The hottest machine I've played with was a hacked xerox XP12 laser printer controller. It was a 8mhz 8086 and a 8089(IOP). It could beat any 8086 system cold (using s100 and multibus systems as standard). Later I would see a 8086 multibus system with two 8089s running CPM-86 and it was far faster than the then new AT. The speed of the IO systems and it's peripherals is everything. I know this from building a multiprocessing/multitasking system in the early 1980s using four z80s in a loosely coupled SMP. The array of z80s, 8085s and 8749s around them to do IO was where the real performance could be found. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 19 17:54:51 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Mainframes vs PCs (was Re: discrete transistors) In-Reply-To: <199810192225.PAA15848@mxu1.u.washington.edu> (message from Chuck McManis on Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:32:06 -0700) References: <199810192225.PAA15848@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19981019225451.23254.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > Back to classic computers, it has been said, perhaps apocryphylly(sp?), > that "My laptop has more computer power than NASA used to put men on the > moon." While it may be true, I've never actually seen a description of the > computer resources available to NASA between 1962 and 1969. Does anyone on > the list have that information? About 18 months ago I was in one of those "Giant Book Sale" places in Colorado, and stumbled onto a big pile of what looked like oversize paperback coffee-table books titled _Computers in Space: Journeys with NASA_ by James E. Tomayko. I was somewhat surprised to discover that the book actually had quite good technical content; for instance, it contained the first sufficiently detailed description of core rope memory (also known as wire braid memory or transformer memory) that I'd found. Rich and I bought the entire stack and gave them out to people as gifts. Unfortunately the book is now out of print. However, the same author wrote a report for NASA on the same subject, which is available online: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/computers/Compspace.html And it's not apochryphal. Your laptop has many times more computing power than the ground-based systems and the on-board computers put together. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 19 18:03:27 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <199810192255.AA22660@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199810192255.AA22660@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19981019230327.23289.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > < can not compete with a high-end monolithic microprocessor. The laws of > < physics conspire against it. Allison J Parent replied: > They do. There are ways around that. Tricks like massively parallel or > very wide words to name a few. And none of those tricks scale up very well for implementing high-performance versions of standard microprocessor architectures. The point was that it is impossible to build a discrete-transistor x86 to outperform (or even match the performance of) the Pentium II. You could build some sort of non-x86 discrete transistor to outperform the PII on specialized tasks, but that's a different matter entirely. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 19 18:36:27 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <199810192012.AA24917@world.std.com> Message-ID: > Eventually, the early 386s were only 16mhz! Is mhz == MegaHertz or is mhz == milliHertz? If so, that could be why this machine seems SO slow. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Oct 19 18:36:56 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Belly laugh on eBay Message-ID: haha, that is a laugh! 2011 is a 1992 era 80286-10 IBM PS/1. has a good cuteness factor, but rather closed in design though. In a message dated 10/19/98 2:40:02 PM US Eastern Standard Time, kaikal@MICROSOFT.com writes: > This item description on eBay says it all: > > 36111353 Collectible IBM PS/1 Type 2011 > > BWAHAHAHAHA! From wpe101 at banet.net Mon Oct 19 18:38:17 1998 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 References: <19981019144247.24766.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <362BCD69.D31ECDA5@banet.net> Unix & MAN TOPS-20 $ HELP Another nice feature was, that if you typed enough of the command to be unique, then hit the ESCape key, TOPS-20'd display the rest of the command.. Oh, and as an Operator, it was really easy to remember that, if you wanted to do a backup, you typed BACKUP. Will Max Eskin wrote: > > Every so often, people here mention how they wish they had TOPS-20 > on their modern computers, how much superior it was to UNIX, etc. > COuld someone please explain the specific features (apparent to a > user) that are missing in UNIX? If I understand correctly, TOPS takes > a less minimalist attitude than UNIX, but since I've never even seen > it run, I wouldn't know. If it's not too much trouble, could someone > give some examples of interaction that demonstrates the difference? > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Oct 19 18:43:08 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810192352.TAA10745@gate.usaor.net> MHz is MegaHertz. mHz is milliHertz. I think mhz is a typo. -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors > Date: Monday, October 19, 1998 7:36 PM > > > Eventually, the early 386s were only 16mhz! > > Is mhz == MegaHertz or is mhz == milliHertz? > If so, that could be why this machine seems SO slow. > > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 19 19:30:12 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?) In-Reply-To: Kevan Heydon "Re: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)" (Oct 19, 12:27) References: Message-ID: <9810200130.ZM5090@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 19, 12:27, Kevan Heydon wrote: > On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, I wrote: > > > > It would be interesting just to see how many collectors in the UK (and > > mainland Europe) would be interested in going to a UK VCF. > Well the replies never really got started. I only got five replies, all > said they were interested. I can only conclude that there are not that > many UK collectors on this list. And we can probably guess who they were, too. Ah, well, it makes it easier to budget for a barbecue, I guess... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 19 19:29:31 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <362BCD69.D31ECDA5@banet.net> (message from Will Emerson on Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:38:17 -0400) References: <19981019144247.24766.qmail@hotmail.com> <362BCD69.D31ECDA5@banet.net> Message-ID: <19981020002931.23627.qmail@brouhaha.com> Will Emerson wrote: > Another nice feature was, that if you typed enough of the command to be > unique, then hit the ESCape key, TOPS-20'd display the rest of the > command.. Under Unix, various shells do the same thing. With bash, you use the 'tab' key. How about some TOPS-20 features that haven't become available in Unix, anyone? From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 19 19:33:45 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <19981019224636.23219.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19981019171854.00f138c0@pc> <3.0.1.32.19981019171854.00f138c0@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981019193345.00ece610@pc> At 10:46 PM 10/19/98 -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >John Foust wrote: >> Sounds like Unix 'fg' and 'bg', unless I'm missing something... > >Not good enough. You can 'bg' a job, but you can't log out, log in somewhere >else, and 'fg' the job there. OK, check out VNC at . It'll do this, even with GUIs, between several platforms. It's like a platform-independent "pcAnywhere". - John From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 19 19:40:42 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <19981020004043.4605.qmail@hotmail.com> What amazes me is that no one has ever marketed a mainframe-like machine out of modern processors. Someone mentioned they had made one out of a 286 and some z80s, but why did no single company ever sell any? I would think such machines could be very useful. OTOH, it makes more money to sell 1000 machines than 3 machines and 1000 dumb terminals...sometimes I wish capitalism was never invented... >The raw CPU performance of thet 386 exceeds that of many (but not all) of the >discrete-transistor mainframes (and even IBM's SLT-based mainframes). > >However, system-level performance is another matter. How many 386 machines >had intelligent I/O channels, *AND* took full advantage of them? > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From backofene at hotmail.com Mon Oct 19 19:44:16 1998 From: backofene at hotmail.com (Eileen Backofen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Mainframes vs PCs (was Re: discrete transistors) Message-ID: <19981020004416.12706.qmail@hotmail.com> I don't know what they had at the Cape, but a reliable source once told me that the onboard computer had only 48K of RAM since it was considered too expensive to go to 64K. Eileen > >Back to classic computers, it has been said, perhaps apocryphylly(sp?), >that "My laptop has more computer power than NASA used to put men on the >moon." While it may be true, I've never actually seen a description of the >computer resources available to NASA between 1962 and 1969. Does anyone on >the list have that information? > >--Chuck > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From stan at netcom.com Mon Oct 19 19:38:04 1998 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:29 2005 Subject: Source of software for HP3000/37 running MPE-V References: <199810192352.TAA10745@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <362BDB6C.C8676E62@netcom.com> Hello, I am looking for applications and programming languages (BASIC, Pascal, FORTRAN) for my "new" HP3000/37. Any leads or sources are appreciated. Thanks, Stan From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 19 19:55:02 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Mainframes vs PCs (was Re: discrete transistors) Message-ID: <19981020005503.22424.qmail@hotmail.com> According to the November '95 Popular Science, p88: The Apollo 11 guidance computer had 2K of RAM and 36K of ROM, and barreled along at 1 MHz. The circuits consisted of 24 modules contained in two trays, weighed 70 pounds, and required 70 W of power. To issue commands, the astronauts used a unique interface that consisted of a number pad and an LED readout. Commands were issued in "noun-verb" format; the astronauts would key in numbers that were codes for commands like "display velocity" or "change program". Nasa computers on the ground were somewhat more powerful, but not much, according to Merritt Jones, a space physicist for the Gemini and Apollo programs who now works for IBM. " The machine used in the mission control center, which was the most powerful commercial machine at the time, could execute 1 million instructions per second," he recalls. "It cost $4 million and took up most of the room. It had one megabyte of memory." next comes a description of modern computers and how laptops can do '90 Million Instructions per second and is small enough...' >things into and out of memory rather than bothering the CPU with all that. >To facilitate this the mainframes typically have fairly complex snooping >caches for effective management of paging activity. > >The Crays and ConnectionMachines have, in the past, had the advantage of >being vector processors where typical mainframes were often SIMD machines >at best and simple pipelines at worst. Microprocessors caught up with the >SIMD wave with multi-ALU pipelining, and with the Katmai and AMD-K7 they >will get many of the vector features that made so-called "super computers" >so fast. > >If you build a "PC" (Pentium II class) with 256MB of SDRAM and dual PCI >based fast/wide SCSI controllers running to a striped RAID array of "good" >SCSI disks you can "beat" a lot of mainframes. Of course you best them with >a $10,000 PC. > >Back to classic computers, it has been said, perhaps apocryphylly(sp?), >that "My laptop has more computer power than NASA used to put men on the >moon." While it may be true, I've never actually seen a description of the >computer resources available to NASA between 1962 and 1969. Does anyone on >the list have that information? > >--Chuck > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From fauradon at pclink.com Mon Oct 19 20:04:12 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Week End Finds Message-ID: <003101bdfbc5$8d962b80$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Hi, This week end I found a TI 99/4a Beige brand new in the box never used accompanied with the epansion box (my arms still hurt from carrying this stuff) and a box of software for it (Microsoft multiplan among other word processors and databases) Apparently it came from a dealer since it also had a bunch of deal training material, price lists and flyers with Bill Cosby. Also got a couple of color pong machines: a Radio shack and a Ricochet. A National Semiconductor ADVERSARY (pong style?) And a Sharp PC-1500A with the printer and cassette interface, it was used as an embedded system for a Pulmonary Analysis Computer (pretty good example of interfacing a pocket computer to the external world) the extra hardware has a D/A and A/D converter pretty cool. Does any one have docs on the pc-1500? Any info would be appreciated. A web search didn't bring anything more than the specs, I would like to find programming info if that is possible. Thanks Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon From wpe101 at banet.net Mon Oct 19 20:11:48 1998 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 References: <199810202000.QAA01233@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <362BE354.B0BC1C91@banet.net> Big cut performed here...... Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > -spc (Has anyone here actually used TOPS-20?) As a system operator, and, later production control analyst with DEC, I dealt with it.. All of the "system managers" in our group didn't want to deal with the "pre vax/vms stuff". so I ended up as the de-facto administrator of a KL1091 running TOPS-10 V7.01, and a KL2060 running (gawd, I ferget) V TOPS-20.. Eventually, we shut down the 1091, and brought up the 2060 running (believe it or not) V7.02 TOPS-10... At least, when the KL's crashed, they'd let the Op know, Such as: [DECsystem-10 Not Running], with an appropriate "beep" at the CTY, and the same message displayed on any user's terminal.. Oh, with the VAXen, at the time, you suspected a crash about the same time some VP called on the phone and blasted you because they could not get any response from the system.... (progress?) Will From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Oct 19 20:13:11 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Smalltalk (was Re: Treasure chest!) In-Reply-To: <19981019212123.22685.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 19, 98 09:21:23 pm Message-ID: <199810200113.SAA15185@saul7.u.washington.edu> > D. Peschel" wrote: > > BTW, someone mentioned that he had a Tektronix Magnolia. This was one of > > Tek's workstations of the 80's, and Tek's share of the porting effort was to > > put Smalltalk on the Magnolia. I would definitely like to find out more > > about THAT machine. > > I'm not sure which machine the Magnolia is. Well, I checked my saved messages again. The person is Innfogra@aol.com, and his message did mention a Magnolia, but it was one of the machines he had *scrapped*, not *kept*. Damn! BTW, you said you were looking for original Xerox stuff. I read that the University of Washington got the source code to PS (which was one of Xerox' several implementations of Smalltalk, I think pre-Smalltalk-80, with a 68000 cross-development environment). I doubt we have it anymore. Alan Borning, who is a professor here, doubted it also. But I'll keep looking. And I know we had/have some Xerox Stars (?) on campus... I never got a log-in name, so I never used them. The last time I saw them they had "Out of Order" signs on them, which I think was a naked lie to cover up the fact that the people had no idea what to do with them. Note that Smalltalk was never offered on the Star. Xerox may have written it for the bare processor (though I don't think so). They DID try to write it in Mesa, running on top of the usual Star system, and it ran like molasses. So that never saw the light of day. (The trivia in these Smalltalk messages came from a new 4-volume "Handbook of Programming Languages" (I think that's what the set is called). Fascinating books.) I was never a person for .sig's because I could never think of an original quote and didn't want to rip off an over-ripped-off unoriginal quote. But I think that "God damn entropy" is going to be my motto for a while. -- Derek From dogas at leading.net Mon Oct 19 20:18:08 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Week End Finds Message-ID: <01bdfbc7$7f2162c0$b2c962cf@devlaptop> >Does any one have docs on the pc-1500? Any info would be appreciated. A web >search didn't bring anything more than the specs, I would like to find >programming info if that is possible. >Thanks >Francois Hi Francois, I just ordered one of these machines ( inbound mail ) send me some mail to dogas@leading.net I should have it by week end... - Mike From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 20:31:57 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810200131.AA15413@world.std.com> < And none of those tricks scale up very well for implementing high-perfor < versions of standard microprocessor architectures. The point was that The point is why copy the x86! there are better ways. I don't think I want to try and do the cache and pipeline registers as they eat transistors like mad being mostly memory structures. Copying a PII is also copying how much ram? It would not be a practical venture. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 20:32:04 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810200132.AA15510@world.std.com> < Is mhz == MegaHertz or is mhz == milliHertz? < If so, that could be why this machine seems SO slow. MegaHz 10^6, milliHz 10^-3. aka typo. however part of standard usage would dictate MHZ and mhz being the same unless the context was extremely slow events. Now if it were MHy and mHy the assumption would be 10^-3 as a million Henry inductor is very unlikely. Things like this tend to be somewhat self checking. Actually 386sx/16 is pretty speedy of the memory bus is wide. I have a DELL 316sx that runs Minux like gangbusters. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 20:32:12 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Mainframes vs PCs (was Re: discrete transistors) Message-ID: <199810200132.AA15675@world.std.com> < Chuck McManis wrote: < > Back to classic computers, it has been said, perhaps apocryphylly(sp?) < > that "My laptop has more computer power than NASA used to put men on t < > moon." While it may be true, I've never actually seen a description of < > computer resources available to NASA between 1962 and 1969. Does anyon < > the list have that information? "My laptop has more computer power than NASA used to put men on the moon." I find that a loaded quote because it's unbounded. Does this refer to ground support, design and simulation systems or what? Granted the computers that flew were not Crays, they didn't have to be. They were sized for the mission as it was conceived and then had every ounce of weight pared out. They however are unique as they ( I believe from from Gemini on) were IC based, had to work at extremes of temperature, be compact, not use too much power or generate a lot of heat that was difficult to remove. those are imposing requirements for the time (pre 1968 technology!!). In the case of Gemini, Apollo and the Shuttle they also were flown as stable designs when better technology was available. That's a result of the need to freeze the design and program it before it could be flown. Considering the capsule(Apollo) was complete in 1967 (I may be off a year) for Apollo, that means a lot of fancy design work and programming. If we look we may see the predecessor to the CADC in the space program. Now considering the laptop has had some 15 plus years of development history beyond the space program it should be better! Allison From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Oct 19 20:45:25 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <362BCD69.D31ECDA5@banet.net> from "Will Emerson" at Oct 19, 98 07:38:17 pm Message-ID: <199810200145.SAA13650@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 593 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981019/77928297/attachment.ksh From rax at warbaby.com Mon Oct 19 22:00:13 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Kenback 1 Message-ID: No, I didn't find one for 10 bucks, but I was wondering if anyone knows about how many were made? R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Oct 19 20:43:51 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: 128k Mac Schematic needed Message-ID: <17f4120e.362bead7@aol.com> well, i have no schematics, but i do have a spare power supply board if anyone needs it. In a message dated 10/17/98 9:45:31 PM US Eastern Standard Time, nerdware@laidbak.com writes: > My 128k Mac went south on me. When I first got it a year ago, it turned on > and > the screen came up and asked for a floppy. Not having a system disk that old, > I > just put it in storage until I came across one. > > Needless to say, next time I turned it on the floppy made funny noises and > kept spitting the disk out and no video. > > Does anyone have a schematic for the little beast so I can get it cooking > again? If I have to, I can use my Mac Plus for my history presentations, but > I > would rather use the original, if possible. From spc at armigeron.com Tue Oct 20 21:55:45 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <199810200145.SAA13650@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Oct 19, 98 06:45:25 pm Message-ID: <199810210255.WAA02283@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 663 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/4274fec9/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 19 21:04:18 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors Message-ID: <981019220418.21a000b5@trailing-edge.com> >MegaHz 10^6, milliHz 10^-3. aka typo. however part of standard usage >would dictate MHZ and mhz being the same unless the context was extremely >slow events. Yeahbut the same people who put "mhz" in ads are the same folks who talk about the "ASC-2" character sets and "DB-9" connectors. Just because they're common errors doesn't mean that I'm going to repeat them. (Reminds me of Bill Kavanagh at Caltech, who pointed out the silliness of the phrase "partial vacuum" repeatedly... I'll completely leave out the concept of "vacuum leak"!) Tim. From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Oct 19 21:02:05 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Webpage up; input needed Message-ID: <199810200210.WAA13849@gate.usaor.net> Hello everyone! I got my new website going, and I'd like a bit of input. I'm starting a little "computer museum", and need some info. Just click go to , and go to the "Command Central" link. I'm currently working on the Compaq Portable and WANG WLTC page. If anyone has any pics and descriptions of old 'pooters (or putters, depending on how old), just email them to me, and I'll try to get them on the page. ThAnX, -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 PS>> Don't forget to sign my guestbook :^) From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 19 21:22:10 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810200222.AA21179@world.std.com> < What amazes me is that no one has ever marketed a mainframe-like < machine out of modern processors. Someone mentioned they had made What like the VAX 4000 or 6000 series, HP3000, PDP-11/23 or later. The list could be very long. < one out of a 286 and some z80s, but why did no single company ever < sell any? I would think such machines could be very useful. OTOH, it < makes more money to sell 1000 machines than 3 machines and 1000 dumb Lessee, I have a Compupro 8/16 (8085/8088) s100 crate that also has a MPX1 an 8085 board used to do IO independent of the main cpu. A later version of the machine was made with 186, 286 and even 386 cpus. Some of the VME and multibus crates were cpu intensive as well. NCR in '91 had a killer four 486 cpu box. The DEC VAX6250 and 6400 were two and four cpus systems. The point being companies DID. They made money. They were too specialized(some cases) and difficult(some cases) to program compared to simpler single cpus. PCs have at least several CPUs, the 486 I'm running has an 8042 (keyboard interface), one in the tape backup, one in the SCSI CDrom, several 8051s(each scsi drive) and even one in the keyboard. no doubt I may have missed one or two. < terminals...sometimes I wish capitalism was never invented... Oh dear, here we go again. You are unaware on Connection machines, DEC LAVCs, Transputers and lots of other multiple processor configurations. The reason this is not usually done is it's expensive when it can be reduced to one primary cpu. Allison From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 19 21:44:01 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: IBM AT Piggyback Memory References: Message-ID: <362BF8F1.D667FE86@rain.org> Tony Duell wrote: > > The odd thing about the IBM piggybacked chips is that the 2 64K DRAMs > that were soldered together have different pinouts (and neither of them > is the same as the 4164). Thanks much for the information! I am kind of curious now as to how rare or hard to get these chips are. Aside from what is already in motherboards, I probably only have a couple of extra. From gram at cnct.com Mon Oct 19 22:37:39 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Odd Meas. Units References: <19981019224702.19768.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <362C0583.14489280@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > Wait...all matter resists current, and all matter can be forced to > emit light, so any item is a 'Light-emmitting resistor'. Well, if you can dip the probes from an ohmmeter into a bowl of helium-II and measure resistance other than that internal to the probe cables and the meter itself, I'd love to see it. And yes, Helium-II does still qualify as matter. Actually, if you leave the probes in for a while, you'll start losing resistance in the probe cables -- most metals lose resistance with extreme cold if they aren't alloyed in a way that will break easily. Oh, use gloves for this test. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 19 22:38:24 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Odd Meas. Units Message-ID: <981019233824.21a000b5@trailing-edge.com> > Wait...all matter resists current, and all matter can be forced to > emit light, so any item is a 'Light-emmitting resistor'. One of the early April 1 issues of BYTE (1975? More likely 1976) has the specs for a "noise emitting diode". If I remember the definition: "When connected across high voltage, makes a large noise (once)." When did LED's begin wandering out of the solid state physics labs and into commercial products? I remember individual LED's in the very early 70's, and by the mid-70's they were everywhere in the form of 7-segment displays. Is there some landmark "first commercial use" of the classic T1-3/4 individual LED package that's so common today? Were there early LED packages that just completely disappeared? Tim. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 19 22:48:59 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <19981020004043.4605.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > What amazes me is that no one has ever marketed a mainframe-like > machine out of modern processors. Someone mentioned they had made > one out of a 286 and some z80s, but why did no single company ever > sell any? I would think such machines could be very useful. OTOH, it > makes more money to sell 1000 machines than 3 machines and 1000 dumb > terminals...sometimes I wish capitalism was never invented... WHat are you talking about? Pretty much the only super computers being manufactured today are designed as massively parallel systems using microprocessors. What does capitalism have to do with it? Do you think Communist countries would have been cloning US made computers if their shit was so great? Get a clue, Max. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From gram at cnct.com Mon Oct 19 22:54:09 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Political and off-topic (was Re: discrete transistors) References: <19981020004043.4605.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <362C0961.385734B0@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > What amazes me is that no one has ever marketed a mainframe-like > machine out of modern processors. Someone mentioned they had made > one out of a 286 and some z80s, but why did no single company ever > sell any? I would think such machines could be very useful. OTOH, it > makes more money to sell 1000 machines than 3 machines and 1000 dumb > terminals...sometimes I wish capitalism was never invented... Well, since only essentially capitalist countries have ever invented useful products of any kind and computers are useful... Of course, the US is more socialist every week since 1933. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From gram at cnct.com Mon Oct 19 23:27:17 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors References: <199810200132.AA15510@world.std.com> Message-ID: <362C1125.1892758E@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > < Is mhz == MegaHertz or is mhz == milliHertz? > < If so, that could be why this machine seems SO slow. > > MegaHz 10^6, milliHz 10^-3. aka typo. however part of standard usage > would dictate MHZ and mhz being the same unless the context was extremely > slow events. > > Now if it were MHy and mHy the assumption would be 10^-3 as a million > Henry inductor is very unlikely. Things like this tend to be somewhat > self checking. > > Actually 386sx/16 is pretty speedy of the memory bus is wide. I have a > DELL 316sx that runs Minux like gangbusters. Back in 1989, the Zenith TurboSport with a 386 at 12 MHz ran SCO Unix as fast as most desktop systems with 16 MHz 386s. Of course, the Zenith desktop at 33 MHz also ran as fast as most desktops with 16 MHz 386s. Definitely a schizophrenic company even before they sold out to Groupe Bull. And while Zenith laptops (aside from that lunchbox thing) always looked damned good, the majority of Zenith's desktop systems were butt ugly -- perfect for the government contracts they were mostly built for. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From gram at cnct.com Mon Oct 19 23:30:32 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors References: <981019220418.21a000b5@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <362C11E8.9D02F043@cnct.com> CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > >MegaHz 10^6, milliHz 10^-3. aka typo. however part of standard usage > >would dictate MHZ and mhz being the same unless the context was extremely > >slow events. > > Yeahbut the same people who put "mhz" in ads are the same folks who > talk about the "ASC-2" character sets and "DB-9" connectors. Just > because they're common errors doesn't mean that I'm going to repeat them. > > (Reminds me of Bill Kavanagh at Caltech, who pointed out the > silliness of the phrase "partial vacuum" repeatedly... I'll completely > leave out the concept of "vacuum leak"!) Now you're going to break my heart by telling me that chips don't only work until the magic smoke that powers them escapes. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From nerdware at laidbak.com Mon Oct 19 23:33:51 1998 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: 128k Mac Schematic needed In-Reply-To: References: from "John Rollins" at Oct 17, 98 10:24:34 pm Message-ID: <199810200431.XAA02569@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 19:24:46 +0100 (BST) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: 128k Mac Schematic needed <> > Anyway, to get back the other original problem. Sounds like the PSU is > tripping. The Mac+ PSU (and the 128 one is similar, I think) is horrible. > It has to have the right dummy loads on both the 5V line and the 12V line > for it to power up. IT takes the regulation sense voltage from the 12V > line. And the chopper heatsink is live (don't ask...). > > But my first reaction would be to test (using an ESR meter) or replace > all the electrolytics in the PSU section (lower half of the analogue > board, below the connector that goes to the logic board), especially > those near the logic board connector. > > -tony Thanks. I'll fire up the Ungar and start swapping. I shoulda thought of that -- I know old electrolytics can go bad, especially in less-than-ideal storage. My guess is that they were on the edge when I got it, and that one time was enough to weaken them to the point of failure. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From nerdware at laidbak.com Mon Oct 19 23:39:35 1998 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: 128k Mac Schematic needed In-Reply-To: <17f4120e.362bead7@aol.com> Message-ID: <199810200436.XAA02621@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:43:51 EDT Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: 128k Mac Schematic needed > well, i have no schematics, but i do have a spare power supply board if anyone > needs it. > Thanks. I'll keep you in mind just in case..... Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From nerdware at laidbak.com Mon Oct 19 23:39:35 1998 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: 128k Mac Schematic needed In-Reply-To: References: <199810180221.VAA14918@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <199810200436.XAA02614@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 22:24:34 -0800 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: John Rollins To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: 128k Mac Schematic needed > Forget schematics, go get a copy of "The Dead Mac Scrolls". Much better for > this sort of thing... For various things(old toaster Macs, printers, > drives, newer Macs[this is an old book so don't expect to see any > PowerMacs, although maybe a IIci]) and gives various symptoms and possible > causes(and where to find the bad part on the board). I just check out a > copy at the library when I need it, but if I see it cheap I might grab > it... It's probably out of print by now but it can't be THAT hard to > find... Or could it? I'll probably find it on ebay for $650. Thanks for the tip. I'll look for a copy somewhere............ Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Mon Oct 19 19:50:46 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: IBM AT Piggyback Memory In-Reply-To: <362BF8F1.D667FE86@rain.org> Message-ID: <199810200445.AAA21593@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:44:01 -0700 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Marvin > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: IBM AT Piggyback Memory > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > The odd thing about the IBM piggybacked chips is that the 2 64K DRAMs > > that were soldered together have different pinouts (and neither of them > > is the same as the 4164). > > Thanks much for the information! I am kind of curious now as to how rare or > hard to get these chips are. Aside from what is already in motherboards, I > probably only have a couple of extra. > Right, In a pinch, use 256K x 1 chips! :-) Between 100ns and 120ns even 45ns would do but what a waste to put that in use on a brain dead 285'er. (personal favorite: Type 2 motherboard and XT 286.) Jason D. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Mon Oct 19 20:02:32 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Odd Meas. Units In-Reply-To: <981019233824.21a000b5@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199810200457.AAA24332@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:38:24 -0400 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Odd Meas. Units > X-To: classiccmp@u.WASHINGTON.EDU > > Wait...all matter resists current, and all matter can be forced to > > emit light, so any item is a 'Light-emmitting resistor'. > > One of the early April 1 issues of BYTE (1975? More likely 1976) > has the specs for a "noise emitting diode". If I remember the > definition: "When connected across high voltage, makes a large > noise (once)." > > When did LED's begin wandering out of the solid state physics labs > and into commercial products? I remember individual LED's in the > very early 70's, and by the mid-70's they were everywhere in the > form of 7-segment displays. > > Is there some landmark "first commercial use" of the classic T1-3/4 > individual LED package that's so common today? Were there early > LED packages that just completely disappeared? Remember that very well bec I had several old styles and standard styles. Current styles came into being before '80's I think. Old ones looks weird in type of epoxy and looks darker and most used round leads, one thick lead and thin lead, one of them in center and one on radial. Also they usually doesn't glow as bright and quality for those old LED's. Now there are newer styles and most recent is super bright blue LED's and white LED's (using 3 matched up LED in 1 package (Proton sells these in keychain lighters.) and oddball shapes like ovals, square triangles etc, some LED mounted the die on the side without the focusing cone. Oh yeah, SMD leds of all kinds and some draw around 2mA but decent enough for brightness. Got one that does draw that current less than that? All LED's does fade with use, low quality ones quickest. Jason D. > > Tim. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Mon Oct 19 20:08:02 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: 128k Mac Schematic needed In-Reply-To: <199810200431.XAA02569@garcon.laidbak.com> References: Message-ID: <199810200502.BAA25691@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:33:51 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Paul Braun" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: 128k Mac Schematic needed > Date sent: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 19:24:46 +0100 (BST) > Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: 128k Mac Schematic needed > > > <> > Thanks. I'll fire up the Ungar and start swapping. I shoulda thought of that -- I > know old electrolytics can go bad, especially in less-than-ideal storage. My > guess is that they were on the edge when I got it, and that one time was > enough to weaken them to the point of failure. > Why not order a PSU/flyback for Mac 128/512K and Plus rebuild/upgrade kit from CCS? That should solve everything and a new yoke connector. Also redo all solder joints on heavy components and all connector pins. Cost: Not more than $30. Jason D. Paul Braun > NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. > nerdware@laidbak.com > www.laidbak.com/nerdware > email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 20 00:06:09 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: 128k Mac Schematic needed In-Reply-To: <199810200436.XAA02614@garcon.laidbak.com> References: <199810180221.VAA14918@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: >Date sent: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 22:24:34 -0800 >Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >From: John Rollins >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > >Subject: Re: 128k Mac Schematic needed > >> Forget schematics, go get a copy of "The Dead Mac Scrolls". Much better for >> this sort of thing... For various things(old toaster Macs, printers, >> drives, newer Macs[this is an old book so don't expect to see any >> PowerMacs, although maybe a IIci]) and gives various symptoms and possible >> causes(and where to find the bad part on the board). I just check out a >> copy at the library when I need it, but if I see it cheap I might grab >> it... It's probably out of print by now but it can't be THAT hard to >> find... Or could it? > > >I'll probably find it on ebay for $650. > >Thanks for the tip. I'll look for a copy somewhere............ Try http://www.powells.com there a great bookstore, in fact a lot of the stuff amazon.com sells comes from them. I picked a copy up from them about a year ago. They get them in every now and then (they deal in both new and used books). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Oct 20 01:37:13 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <199810202000.QAA01233@armigeron.com> References: <19981019183849.11589.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19981020162749.00d6d5a0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 04:00 PM 20-10-98 -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > -spc (Has anyone here actually used TOPS-20?) No, but I spent eight years or so using TOPS-10. I did a fair amount of programming on it using various programming languages (Macro, FORTRAN, Pascal, Algol, Algol-68, Simula-67, Bliss-10, BCPL, Focal, etc. etc.) although I spent most time in the Bliss, BCPL and Macro area. I guess by the end of it all I'd consider myself a sophisticated non-privileged systems programmer (I wasn't on the Computer Centre staff) but did help with special monitor builds from time to time. I think there's a large bit of nostalgia in my love of TOPS-10 and related things. I'm not sure I'd want to go back to spending my days in front of a VT05 at 2400 baud. It's nice to have multiple windows, graphics, music etc! I do miss the programming languages though. You just can't seem to get the same mix for Digital Unix (at least not free anyway....). One of the things that made life so much easier as a programmer was a package called IOLIB which was written by one of the systems staff here at La Trobe (a guy named Rob Cook). It added a run-time library and a large number of macros to make assembly language programming easier. In many ways it covered up the difficulty of not having a "standard" I/O library, something that was addressed with TOPS-10 and the JSYS UUO. I'm not clear on this, can someone confirm that JSYS was a UUO - I remember reading about this in the mid-70s and as it was a -20ism, never got to play with it! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Oct 20 01:41:07 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Odd Meas. Units In-Reply-To: <199810192138.AA16634@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19981020163952.00d66360@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 05:38 PM 19-10-98 -0400, Megan wrote: > >>> I used to know the speed of light in Furlongs per Fortnight. >> >>The attoparsec/microfortnight is remarkably close to the inch/second. >>Quite useful for quoting tape speeds :-) > >IIRC, the GT40 lunar lander program had comments about measuring >things in furlongs per fortnight. I'll have to check the source... And of course there's a VMS sysgen parameter whose unit of measurement is the micro-fortnight. Any VMS systems types out there remember what the parameter is, and how long a micro-fortnight is :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From spc at armigeron.com Wed Oct 21 02:48:42 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Odd Meas. Units In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981020163952.00d66360@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> from "Huw Davies" at Oct 20, 98 04:41:07 pm Message-ID: <199810210748.DAA02640@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 562 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981021/4d0aef10/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 20 02:01:12 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <981019220418.21a000b5@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Yeahbut the same people who put "mhz" in ads are the same folks who > talk about the "ASC-2" character sets and "DB-9" connectors. Just > because they're common errors doesn't mean that I'm going to repeat them. But Allison does NOT make those kinds of errors. That's part of what makes it so notable and what makes it so irresistable to chide her when she does make a typo. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Oct 19 23:00:47 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Belly laugh on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199810200804.EAA26612@smtp.interlog.com> On 19 Oct 98 at 12:38, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > This item description on eBay says it all: > > 36111353 Collectible IBM PS/1 Type 2011 > > BWAHAHAHAHA! > > Kai > Sorry to differ, but from a collectors point of view the 2011 is unique. I don't know how rare it is but it is certainly rarer than the 5150. The item offered is of course useless because the power supply is in the monitor unit. IBM calls it a 286 work station and it functions fine in that capacity with a good display. The plug-in memory card behind the faceplate is not found in any other IBM I know of and this machine firmly occupies a place in the IBM portion of my collection along with the 5100 line and my few MCA PS2s. I have a much harder time justifying my 5160. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Oct 19 23:00:48 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Educational subsidies In-Reply-To: <199810190923.LAA20221@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <199810200803.EAA26465@smtp.interlog.com> On 19 Oct 98 at 10:43, Hans Franke wrote: > > The influence of schools on computers is interesting. Atari managed to crack > > the German educational system and as a result the best programs for the Atari > > ST have come from Germany. > > I would like to agree, but the situation was quite a bit different. > > First of all until the end of the 80s there was almost no official > state programm to put computers in every school - some schools did > it on their own, with city or parrent founding. Around 88/89 all > states had programms, but they soly founded IBM alikes. > > In the early 80s, computers at school have been Comodore. almost > nothing else. PETs, CBM 3000's and 4000's. Later on also C64. > Some schools (especialy in Bavaria) switched later on for AMIGAs. > Oh well another bit of folklore down the tubes. And I thought that the Tramiels had at least done one thing right in their marketing. This was the reason I heard for the excellence and number of Atari programs coming out of Germany. But from what you're saying it was driven by the SOHO market. > Atari never had a big hit (beside from single schools) with their > STs in education. BUT the ST hits the private and small bussines > market in Germany like a Blitz. Low price, good performance and > especialy the superior b&w crt made it possible. Later on the SLM > widened the gap once more. Until Atari failed to offer real upgrade > machines (the Megas where just new cases) Atari has been the single > biggest PC manufacturer in the home/small buz market. And with > programms like Calamus they hit the DTP market from below (the > beautiful b&w crt was just like an invitation)- Apple could have > had learend a lesson, but they prefered to shrink their share. > > > Programs such as Steinbergs Cubase and > > E-logic's Notator started out on Ataris partly because of it's music > > capabilities but mainly because of it beimg the machine so many Germans began > > with. They were both ported to Wintel and Mac. Another example is Calamus the > > desktop publishing program. > > Jep, but the Musik thing was just insired by the build in MIDI > ports. Almost instantly after apearing, independant musicians > started to develop Software for the ST - lots of them never had > any programming experiance at all - just fascinated by the idea > to have a free programmable MIDI controler for less than 2000 Mark. > > Still today, Atari is a must for music making. > > Ataris 'power without the price' philosopy meets the market > completely right. They just failed to dig further for gold. > > The AMIGA, later on, never catched the ST in the 'professional' > market, only in the home/games area - Here Commodore had the > advantage of the C64 and the fact that most students had an > Commodore (PET, CBM or C64) as first computer in school. > Similiar to Canada but also a lot of 2600's were sold which in some cases led to the other Atari 8-bitters and then to the STs. The similarities between the GEOS desktop and the ST GEM would make for an easy transition too but in NA it never really caught on except in music circles. > > To this day Germany is still the center for most > > Atari ST activity and where the new clones are coming out of. > > Jau - and I'm eagerly waiting for my Milan-060 :) > But don't forget about France where Atari is also still > strong - And Holland of course. > I'd love to have one but they're a bit expensive. A company here in Canada was assembling Falcon clones for the N.A. market for a while but they seem to have disappeared. > Gruss > H. > > -- > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK > > lwalker@interlog.com From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Oct 20 01:58:38 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <19981020002931.23627.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <362BCD69.D31ECDA5@banet.net> <19981019144247.24766.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19981020165813.00e36390@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 12:29 AM 20-10-98 +0000, Eric Smith wrote: >How about some TOPS-20 features that haven't become available in Unix, >anyone? A decent batch system and restartable jobs? Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 20 06:19:55 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Belly laugh on eBay Message-ID: <199810201000.MAA22433@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> This item description on eBay says it all: >> 36111353 Collectible IBM PS/1 Type 2011 >> BWAHAHAHAHA! >> Kai > Sorry to differ, but from a collectors point of view the 2011 is > unique. I don't know how rare it is but it is certainly rarer than the 5150. Yep, collectors are more different then dogs and cats.... > The item offered is of course useless because the power supply is in the > monitor unit. IBM calls it a 286 work station and it functions fine in that > capacity with a good display. And IBM sold tonns of them - at least over here. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 20 07:01:17 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810201041.MAA12505@marina.fth.sbs.de> > < It's certainly *possible* to add intelligent I/O channels to an x86 mach > The hottest machine I've played with was a hacked xerox XP12 laser printer > controller. It was a 8mhz 8086 and a 8089(IOP). It could beat any 8086 > system cold (using s100 and multibus systems as standard). Later I would > see a 8086 multibus system with two 8089s running CPM-86 and it was far > faster than the then new AT. Thats it - I still go mad when people are ranting about the x86 architecture (kind of popular) but they never tried to understand the features, or they never seen the whole family. In fact, Intel designed the 86 as part of an chipset in a very mainframe like way - A general purpose CPU: 8086, a specialized floating point add on: 8087 and a versitale IOC: 8089. A structure as found on most mainframe at this time (Remember, also IBM offered their customers to get specialized add ons to improve floating point performance on the /370). Since IBM used only the CPU and FPU, the actual PC design is exact like a Mainframe without an IOC: Just painfull slow. Gruss H. P.S.: The hate-segmentation-rantig against the x86 also drives me mad - the segmentation sceme used is a very good compromise between usability and performance. Loosing up to 15 Bytes per segment isn't realy a drawback compared to granularities of 4 or 8K today ... -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 20 07:08:02 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: IBM AT Piggyback Memory Message-ID: <199810201049.MAA27560@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> In rummage through the dark recesses of my garage (too densly packed to let >> in light) I again ran across an IBM AT motherboard that used the piggyback >> memory chips. Were there any other computers that used these things? > The Apple /// 128K memory board used 32 pieces of standard 16K DRAM, and > 16 pieces of 32K (stacked 16K) DRAMs. > Several TI calculators including the TI-58 and TI-59 use stacked DIPs for > RAM. > The HP-41CX calculator uses stacked DIPs for ROM and RAM. The first Atari ST520+ and 260+ used stacked chips. Atari decided short before delivering the first units that they had to double the RAM size (Never woundered why the 260+ had 512K and the 520+ had 1Meg ? 260 -> 260 decimal kBytes and 520 -> 520 decimal kBytes, both numers are rounded in favour for the marketing .) Ther have also been real 260s and 520s with 256K and 512K. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 20 07:22:55 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 Message-ID: <199810201103.NAA00880@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> BTW, would you say 'kilobyte' is a misnomer? THe number it >>>signifies isn't 10^3, it's 2^10. For a feeble attempt to get back on >>>topic: was kilobyte always accepted as 1024 bytes? >> What drives me crazy are the marketroids who round-up twice >> in order to inflate the capacity of hard drives. > What annoys me is the 1.44Mbyte floppy disk. The only way to get that > capacitiy is to define 1Mbyte = 1000*1024 Bytes. Ugh! > The famous 65K memory chips/boards of years gone by grated on me as well > (they were, of course 64K boards with 65536 locations). Just remember the Ataris: 64XL, 130XL, ST260, ST520, ST1040 :)) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 20 07:22:55 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Political and off-topic (was Re: discrete transistors) Message-ID: <199810201103.NAA01154@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> terminals...sometimes I wish capitalism was never invented... > Well, since only essentially capitalist countries have ever invented > useful products of any kind and computers are useful... Hmm so where you put in war time Germany ? It was organized more like the later SU but the same time a whole lot of inventions and 'fist' things hapened ? > Of course, the US is more socialist every week since 1933. Geeee - come on - its maybe becoming more and more fuzzy, but socialism is way, way the other direction. Gruss H. (And to come on topic again: did you know that they had some real neat computers in the east before they switched to strict cloning in the 80's ?) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 20 07:34:45 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?) Message-ID: <199810201115.NAA15849@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> I'll summarise the results when the replies dry up. > Well the replies never really got started. I only got five replies, all > said they were interested. I can only conclude that there are not that > many UK collectors on this list. So did you take the non-UK replies out ? Even if the english like to ignore it, Europe is just a short hop away :) I think I know at least 3 or 4 Germans who would like to join and I guess there are a lot more. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 20 07:34:44 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?) Message-ID: <199810201115.NAA15909@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> I think this shows that organising a UK-VCF would be a bad idea at the >> moment. And for me to organise one, losing all the money I'd have to put >> in would be a very bad idea. Just ask Salam about his profits (please don't tell anybody, but a friend of a friend of my uncle told me that Salam will buy out Bill Gates soon and then declare himself ruler of the world) >> Oh well. It would have been an interesting idea. > Yeah, and given the geographic spread of the people that did reply, even a > pub meet would be out of the question. Jep, just for 3 hours would be a bit short - I'll think you have to change your horrible pub opening hours. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 20 06:27:00 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810201127.AA00673@world.std.com> < performance on the /370). Since IBM used only the CPU and FPU, < the actual PC design is exact like a Mainframe without an IOC: < Just painfull slow. My pet peve is the IBM PC when launched was clocked at a rather poor 4.77mhz when most of the s100, multibus and generally everyone else that went with 16bits were looking for 8mhz or faster if possible. It saved a few dollars but not enough. At least DEC had a z80 in there to also do IO (instead of the IOC). < P.S.: The hate-segmentation-rantig against the x86 also drives < me mad - the segmentation sceme used is a very good compromise < between usability and performance. Loosing up to 15 Bytes < per segment isn't realy a drawback compared to granularities < of 4 or 8K today ... To me segmentation was just another bag on the side to get 16bits to address more. The other half is that MMU granularity makes sense for its time but with modern OSs eating megabytes for the kernel Even segments don't allow enough. Allison From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Tue Oct 20 06:27:50 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?) Message-ID: >>> Oh well. It would have been an interesting idea. well I'd be interested, but the big problem's transport at the moment. Give me a couple of months and then ask again :) >> > Yeah, and given the geographic spread of the people that did reply, even >>a >> > pub meet would be out of the question. >> >> Jep, just for 3 hours would be a bit short - I'll think >> you have to change your horrible pub opening hours. well rumour has it that they might be changing. At the moment all you need to do is find a good pub with a decent landlord who isn't bothered about closing at the official times. It's not difficult! cheers Jules From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 20 07:44:59 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810201125.NAA18135@marina.fth.sbs.de> > But Allison does NOT make those kinds of errors. That's part of what > makes it so notable and what makes it so irresistable to chide her when > she does make a typo. She ? ? H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk Tue Oct 20 06:39:36 1998 From: kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk (KNIGHT G.A) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: <199810201115.NAA15849@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: As this forum is based upon Classic Computers I have a theoretical question for you all. Which do you prefer, the original system or an emulation? Regards, Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://welcome.to/aig From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 20 08:01:09 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810201141.NAA00765@marina.fth.sbs.de> > My pet peve is the IBM PC when launched was clocked at a rather poor > 4.77mhz when most of the s100, multibus and generally everyone else > that went with 16bits were looking for 8mhz or faster if possible. > It saved a few dollars but not enough. At least DEC had a z80 in > there to also do IO (instead of the IOC). Jep, Even the Z80 was at 6MHz at this time - But to be honest we have to agree that the basic design of the PC was just intended ans a more flexible terminal, and this basic design was enhanced for the PC... >< P.S.: The hate-segmentation-rantig against the x86 also drives >< me mad - the segmentation sceme used is a very good compromise >< between usability and performance. Loosing up to 15 Bytes >< per segment isn't realy a drawback compared to granularities >< of 4 or 8K today ... > To me segmentation was just another bag on the side to get 16bits to > address more. Jep right, and a very andsome way to deliver relocable adressing and simple memory management. > The other half is that MMU granularity makes sense for its time but with > modern OSs eating megabytes for the kernel Even segments don't allow > enough. :)))) Unix and MS ... H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 20 08:06:17 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?) Message-ID: <199810201146.NAA04712@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>>> Oh well. It would have been an interesting idea. > well I'd be interested, but the big problem's transport at the moment. > Give me a couple of months and then ask again :) Transport ? Rent a car, open the door, put in the computers, as a friend to push you in and close the door and drive - or do you want to display a 1:1 Univac rebuild ? >>>> Yeah, and given the geographic spread of the people that did reply, even >>>> a pub meet would be out of the question. >>> Jep, just for 3 hours would be a bit short - I'll think >>> you have to change your horrible pub opening hours. > well rumour has it that they might be changing. At the moment all you > need to do is find a good pub with a decent landlord who isn't bothered > about closing at the official times. It's not difficult! So, are we about do get a micro-VCF (only SBCs are alowed) in GB within the next few month ? I'm in for shure. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dogas at leading.net Tue Oct 20 06:55:37 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <01bdfc20$8d27f100$e9c962cf@devlaptop> I prefer the original systems... The tactile response from an IBM PC keyboard, the design elegance of an Atari 800, the iterative building of a screen dump on a HP-85.... this list goes on and on... Mike: dogas@leading.net From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 20 08:23:00 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <199810201203.OAA20578@marina.fth.sbs.de> > As this forum is based upon Classic Computers I have a > theoretical question for you all. > Which do you prefer, the original system or an emulation? An emulation can never produce the genuine beep of an Apple ][ at power on, never, no, not now and not when using 128Bit 32 chanal thousend times oversampling :) Just the beep - and now go for all the other fun things. Gruss H. P.S.: Did I mention the ratatatak when retracting the Disk ][ heads ? -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From david_a._vandenbroucke at hud.gov Tue Oct 20 08:21:49 1998 From: david_a._vandenbroucke at hud.gov (david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <9810209088.AA908885571@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> Gareth Knight says: >Which do you prefer, the original system or an emulation? For what purpose? I like to have the older boxes and mess with them from time to time. I get most of my real work done on new machines. Emulators are a lot easier to store! Dav Vandenbroucke Economist U.S. Dept. HUD david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Oct 20 07:40:36 1998 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? References: <9810209088.AA908885571@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> Message-ID: <362C84C4.A6BB06D1@idirect.com> >david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov wrote: > For what purpose? I like to have the older boxes and mess with them > from time to time. I get most of my real work done on new machines. > Emulators are a lot easier to store! Jerome Fine replies: I also like to use the original hardware, but I also am a bit wary of how long the original hardware can last since I don't want to be directly involved in the maintenance other than swapping boards. So, as with the above answer, I also will start to rely on emulators. QUESTION: In general, how long would a seldom used system (about 2 * 5 hour sessions twice a week or about 500 hours a year) tend to last? I am referring to BA23 and BA123 PDP-11 systems to be very specific. The answer need not be in years, but in probable decades if that is the best way to approximate the answer. Namely, I am wondering if I can HOPE/expect 1 or 2 or even 3 or 4 decades of future use from a BA23 or BA123 system. Also, the VT100s and VT320s seem to be lasting. What about the terminals? Of course, the same sort of question can equally be applied to the emulator software - how long can a given application program be expected to run on the current PC hardware/ software environment. I suspect that the answer is much less, but at least software can be modified once with many copies easily made and distributed even more easily. But hardware, once it breaks, is often more difficult to fix and each system must be maintained individually, a much more difficult task and in the long run - 50 years - likely impossible. Comments on the question and all of the other aspects are very much appreciated. While I have a great deal of experience with software, my intuition about hardware is very limited! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Tue Oct 20 07:45:32 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:30 2005 Subject: Tops-20 and ^T Message-ID: <199810201245.IAA10032@shell.monmouth.com> BSD derived boxes have the ^T status available... see below from my Freebsd 2.2.7 box (AMD 586/133) Script started on Tue Oct 20 08:42:46 1998 #134 i4got:/home/pechter>^T load: 0.22 cmd: ksh 15420 [ttyin] 0.03u 0.06s 0% 472k Script done on Tue Oct 20 08:42:54 1998 Bill (wishing for both Tops-20 and Vax/Vms on my pc) +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Tue Oct 20 07:55:30 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <199810201255.AA24361@world.std.com> >As this forum is based upon Classic Computers I have a >theoretical question for you all. >Which do you prefer, the original system or an emulation? For me, the real machine is more important. An emulation is a poor replacement (especially if it has to run under Microsoft-anything). But with some hardware being in very short quantity, an emulator can fulfill a need. I'm in the process of working on a pdp-10 emulator, but that is not to say that I would turn down real hardware... my only problem right now is lack of space. I definitely could not handle a KA, KI or KL... but a KS? Good possibiliy... the disks are another problem, however. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 20 08:14:58 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <199810201314.AA11609@world.std.com> < >As this forum is based upon Classic Computers I have a < >theoretical question for you all. < >Which do you prefer, the original system or an emulation? Emulators have their place where hardware is scarce or extinct. What you can't do with an emulator is make the disk drive buzz out a tune or hack the DMA logic as a simple blitter. Hardware has aspects, some very tactile, that emulators can't. Also if the emulator doesn't know the proposed hardware it can't. I'd love to see an emulator that could imitate a s100 z80 system! I do use an emulator, MYZ80. However I find that I end up copying the work to my s100 crate, ampro, visual or kaypro in the end. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 20 08:50:35 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Microfortnights Message-ID: <981020095035.21a000e9@trailing-edge.com> >And of course there's a VMS sysgen parameter whose unit of measurement is >the micro-fortnight. Any VMS systems types out there remember what the >parameter is, and how long a micro-fortnight is :-) Why do you have to remember when you have VMS HELP available? :-) (TIMAXP)$: MCR SYSGEN SYSGEN> SHOW PARAM *TIME* Parameter Name Current Default Min. Max. Unit Dynamic -------------- ------- ------- ------- ------- ---- ------- TIMEPROMPTWAIT 65535 -1 0 -1 uFortnight SYSGEN> HELP PARAM TIMEPROMPTWAIT TIMEPROMPTWAIT TIMEPROMPTWAIT defines the number of seconds that you want a VAX processor to wait for the time and date to be entered when a system boot occurs, if the processor's time-of-year clock does not contain a valid time. (The time unit of micro-fortnights is approximated as seconds in the implementation.) If the time specified by TIMEPROMPTWAIT elapses, the system continues the boot operation, and the date and time are set to the last recorded time that the system booted. For a VAX-11/730 processor, which does not have a battery backup clock, the system time must be supplied following a power failure. [...] -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 20 09:12:53 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <199810201125.NAA18135@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Oct 20, 98 12:45:59 pm Message-ID: <199810201412.HAA15216@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/17899ce7/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 20 09:30:09 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <199810210255.WAA02283@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Oct 20, 98 10:55:45 pm Message-ID: <199810201430.HAA07378@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1130 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/2ff09a73/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 20 09:35:27 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: <199810201314.AA11609@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981020093527.00ee0ca0@pc> At 09:14 AM 10/20/98 -0400, Allison J Parent wrote: > >Emulators have their place where hardware is scarce or extinct. >What you can't do with an emulator is make the disk drive buzz out a >tune or hack the DMA logic as a simple blitter. Hardware has aspects, >some very tactile, that emulators can't. The Dead Media Project, , headed by author Bruce Sterling, maintains an interesting mailing list and archive about obsolete media. One sub-project is the Dead Sounds tape, a collection of the sounds of dead media. I submitted the sound of a PET data tape, for example. There's every reason to assume that emulators will continue to evolve to include the recreation of sounds and 3D imagery. I think they'll become more faithful in their reproduction of hardware characteristics, too, allowing more soft configuration of the devices connected to the system. The number of viable antique systems will drop over time, and the number of people wanting to experience them will increase. Emulators fill a great need, and they don't fill space. - John From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 20 09:52:20 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: References: <199810201115.NAA15849@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: >As this forum is based upon Classic Computers I have a >theoretical question for you all. >Which do you prefer, the original system or an emulation? > >Regards, >Gareth Knight >Amiga Interactive Guide ^^^^^ I think the Amiga is a good example, yes it can be emulated, there is even a commercial product to do just that. Which would you prefer, a decked out A3000 or a emulation? Personally I prefer my A3000 (still needs an accelerator to be truely decked out). For me half the fun or more is in the tinkering with the hardware to get a system running. Another good example is the PDP-11, sure the emulation gives you a faster and most definitly quieter system, but the hardware can be so much fun to puzzle out. Then there is the down side, all the space these systems take up, but hey, someone has to preserve this part of our history. Besides, the keyboards are NEVER right when doing emulation, and at times that can be really rough. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu Tue Oct 20 09:57:28 1998 From: ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <199810201430.HAA07378@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Cameron Kaiser wrote: (regarding tcsh and filename / command completion) > It *does* do command completion, though. Tcsh will do command completion for names of executables that are in the current path. Additionally, typing the ambiguous beginning of a command name followed by ^D will return a list of possible commands in the path that start with the characters that you have entered. Of course, it's important (at least in the context of this thread) to remember where the "t" in tcsh comes from. From Richard M. Alderson III's comments in the tcsh man page: THE T IN TCSH In 1964, DEC produced the PDP-6. The PDP-10 was a later re-implementation. It was re-christened the DECsystem-10 in 1970 or so when DEC brought out the second model, the KI10. TENEX was created at Bolt, Beranek & Newman (a Cambridge, Mass. think tank) in 1972 as an experiment in demand-paged virtual memory operating systems. They built a new pager for the DEC PDP-10 and created the OS to go with it. It was extremely successful in academia. In 1975, DEC brought out a new model of the PDP-10, the KL10; they intended to have only a version of TENEX, which they had licensed from BBN, for the new box. They called their version TOPS-20 (their capitalization is trademarked). A lot of TOPS-10 users (`The OPerating System for PDP-10') objected; thus DEC found themselves supporting two incompatible systems on the same hardware--but then there were 6 on the PDP-11! TENEX, and TOPS-20 to version 3, had command completion via a user-code-level subroutine library called ULTCMD. With version 3, DEC moved all that capability and more into the monitor (`kernel' for you Unix types), accessed by the COMND% JSYS (`Jump to SYStem' instruction, the supervisor call mechanism [are my IBM roots also showing?]). The creator of tcsh was impressed by this feature and several others of TENEX and TOPS-20, and created a version of csh which mimicked them. -- Scott Ware NUMS-MPBC Macromolecular Crystallography Resource 303 East Chicago Avenue, Ward 8-264, Chicago, IL 60611 (312)503-0813 PGP Public Key: http://xtal.pharm.nwu.edu/~ware/public.txt From marvin at rain.org Tue Oct 20 10:08:23 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: ebay: Microcomputers and Memories book References: <199810200132.AA15510@world.std.com> Message-ID: <362CA767.3AFE922@rain.org> For all you DEC people, this sounds like an interesting book. The description is "Microcomputers and Memories" (1981, DEC, 662 Pages, Softbound). http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=35707674 From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 20 10:13:55 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810201513.AA11632@world.std.com> I should include the more regional measure: NewYork Second: That is the infinitesmal time between the light turning green and the cab horn going off behind you. Allison From John.Dykstra.jdykstra at nt.com Tue Oct 20 09:56:02 1998 From: John.Dykstra.jdykstra at nt.com (John Dykstra) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981020095602.00915230@47.161.112.121> >The whole reason Cray's are wired up as circles rather than linearly like a >mainframe is to reduce wire lengths (and with them speed of light delays). Although I never looked at the prints for one, all of the Cray 1's that I had a chance to examine were not completely circular--there was always a wedge missing. I expect this was almost essential; all of the wiring between circuit cards was on the inside of the circle, and the customer engineers had to be able to get to that wiring. I suspect that the reason Seymour Cray built the machine in the shape he did was that the circuit cards, plus the machined columns that supported and cooled them, were wider than the card connectors. By arranging the card columns in a semi-circle with the connectors on the inside, he could minimize wiring length. ---- John Dykstra jdykstra@nortel.com Principal Software Architect voice: +1 651 415-1604 Nortel (Northern Telecom) fax: +1 612 932-8549 From John.Dykstra.jdykstra at nt.com Tue Oct 20 09:46:15 1998 From: John.Dykstra.jdykstra at nt.com (John Dykstra) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981020094615.00910990@47.161.112.121> >Motorola claims to have started shipping ECL integrated circuits in 1962. >Why were people still building computers using discrete transistors for >years after that? Many of the high-end computers used discrete >implementations of non-saturating logic that was very similar to ECL. Most of the early IC production went into defense electronics, especially missile guidance computers. Even after IC's were commercially available, they were quite expensive, even in production quantities. IBM continued to ship new SLT-based designs when their competitors were moving to IC's, and they were the target of some marketing hype as a result. However, IBM had tuned the circuit design, packaging and manufacturing processes for SLT so well that they could get more performance per dollar out of SLT than anyone could get out of IC's. (Source: Pugh, Johnson and Palmer, "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems", MIT Press.) ---- John Dykstra jdykstra@nortel.com Principal Software Architect voice: +1 651 415-1604 Nortel (Northern Telecom) fax: +1 612 932-8549 From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 20 10:22:44 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: ebay: Microcomputers and Memories book Message-ID: <199810201522.AA20621@world.std.com> < For all you DEC people, this sounds like an interesting book. The < description is "Microcomputers and Memories" (1981, DEC, 662 Pages, < Softbound). < < http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=35707674 It's a must have for anyone hacking Qbus PDP-11s, peripherals commonly used with PDP-11s and even user designed hardware! I have the 1982 version and it's well used! Allison From kevan at heydon.org Tue Oct 20 10:45:56 1998 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?) In-Reply-To: <199810201115.NAA15849@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > So did you take the non-UK replies out ? Even if the english > like to ignore it, Europe is just a short hop away :) You were the only non-UK reply and you were one of the five. > I think I know at least 3 or 4 Germans who would like > to join and I guess there are a lot more. -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 20 12:15:54 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?) Message-ID: <199810201556.RAA29274@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> So did you take the non-UK replies out ? Even if the english >> like to ignore it, Europe is just a short hop away :) > You were the only non-UK reply and you were one of the five. Oops. Not much of an audience ... Sad - so, lets fix the pub hours. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 20 11:00:53 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810201600.AA29302@world.std.com> < I expect this was almost essential; all of the wiring between circuit < cards was on the inside of the circle, and the customer engineers had to < able to get to that wiring. True. < I suspect that the reason Seymour Cray built the machine in the shape h < did was that the circuit cards, plus the machined columns that supporte < and cooled them, were wider than the card connectors. By arranging the < card columns in a semi-circle with the connectors on the inside, he coul < minimize wiring length. It was a design requirement that no signal path would exceed 1 meter. It also allowed signals like clock to be distributed in a way that assured all parts were geting the same drumbeat at the same time. If it were a linear layout it would easily be several meters long and the signals from either end would have cables long enough to insure the data was way late. Signal propagation in cables is less than speed of light (c) and can be as low as 75% in some coax style cables. So if you have a 3 meter cable and you putting pulses out at the rate of one every 3nS you can literally have three pulses traveling down the wire like golf balls in a tube! If that pulse is your sychronizing clock you can see that when it gets to the end of that 3meter wire it's late (by two pulses) compared to the logic at the beginning of the wire. This is a handicap for ultrafast systems but it can be useful for storing data too (delay line memories and timing elements)! So this is why big and fast do not go well together. It also was an advantageous layout for cooling and power distribution. It made for an unusual looking machine with a lot going on down under the subfloor! Customer engineers were not that fond of it as it tended to be cold in the middle! This phenomenon is seen and known at the chip level and influences how the logic is organized on the die for super fast logic. Allison From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 20 11:38:59 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: from "Scott Ware" at Oct 20, 98 09:57:28 am Message-ID: <199810201638.JAA12316@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 621 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/8c5aad27/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 20 11:32:41 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <981020123241.21a000fd@trailing-edge.com> >Signal propagation in cables is less than speed of light (c) and can be >as low as 75% in some coax style cables. Coax cables with velocity factors of 0.66 are in wide use. And in some very specialized areas - especially the world of delay lines - coaxial cables with velocity factors of less than 0.10 are used. These cables are extremely expensive and somewhat fragile, as their center conductor is a coil around a ferrite core, rather than a plain copper wire. Tim. From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Oct 20 11:49:39 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Mainframes vs PCs (was Re: discrete transistors) In-Reply-To: <19981020004416.12706.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199810201643.JAA01619@mxu4.u.washington.edu> "My laptop has more computer power than NASA used to put men on the moon." Is usually used in the context of the ground based computers not the flight computers. The wonderful HTTP link that was given out here on the report of Computers at NASA is quite informative and contains the following information: During Gemini-Apollo the ground system computers consisted of five 7094 mainframes each configured with 64K of memory 524K of "auxillary" storage and a 1401 as a front end. For the actual moon-landing flights (post 1966) the information is less clear, its clear that some of the 7094's were augmented/replaced with two 360/75's each with 1M of memory and 4M of auxillary store. It is unclear from the document how many of the 7094s were retired, some of them (the paper mentions, "the remaining 7094s"). So for this statement to be true your laptop computer would have to be able to outperform dual IBM 360/75's, some number of 7094s (up to three I guess), and have more (5 + 5 + .5 + .5 + .5 + .5) 12MB of memory. Certainly possible for a P5 laptop, it wasn't as clear for a 486 machine. --Chuck From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 20 12:40:01 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 20, 98 07:52:20 am Message-ID: <199810201740.KAA09556@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 846 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/372241d5/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Tue Oct 20 13:24:08 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: ebay: Microcomputers and Memories book References: <199810200132.AA15510@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810201824.AA18849@world.std.com> >For all you DEC people, this sounds like an interesting book. The >description is "Microcomputers and Memories" (1981, DEC, 662 Pages, >Softbound). > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=35707674 Geez, these things were free for the asking... I've got literally 8 shelves of the dec handbooks from over the years (back to 1969). I got on a mailing list to get new ones automatically when such was possible... it was great. (Oh yeah, the above is -11 and vax related only... I've got another shelf of pdp8 and module and cabling handbooks... then I've also got the software sourcebooks) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 20 13:40:15 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810201840.AA07504@world.std.com> < Coax cables with velocity factors of 0.66 are in wide use. And in < some very specialized areas - especially the world of delay lines - Right. I was thinking antennas... don't ask! < coaxial cables with velocity factors of less than 0.10 are used. < These cables are extremely expensive and somewhat fragile, as their < center conductor is a coil around a ferrite core, < rather than a plain copper wire. Over the years I've made my own delay lines for various projects. Tedious but saves a bundle! Common use was delay for vertical on O'scopes, radar (calibration!) and dram timing. Allison From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Oct 20 13:46:41 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: IBM AT Piggyback Memory References: <362BF8F1.D667FE86@rain.org> Message-ID: <362CDA90.48150A2A@bigfoot.com> I have about 15 units with the factory stacked memory I can look at to get the chip type and specifics of the lead numbers. If I don't get it to you by Friday drop me a direct email and remind me. Marvin wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > The odd thing about the IBM piggybacked chips is that the 2 64K DRAMs > > that were soldered together have different pinouts (and neither of them > > is the same as the 4164). > > Thanks much for the information! I am kind of curious now as to how rare or > hard to get these chips are. Aside from what is already in motherboards, I > probably only have a couple of extra. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 20 14:00:56 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?) In-Reply-To: <199810201115.NAA15909@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > >> I think this shows that organising a UK-VCF would be a bad idea at the > >> moment. And for me to organise one, losing all the money I'd have to put > >> in would be a very bad idea. > > Just ask Salam about his profits (please don't tell anybody, but > a friend of a friend of my uncle told me that Salam will buy out > Bill Gates soon and then declare himself ruler of the world) Please. Let's not start any unfounded rumors. I think the guy giving stuff away free made more profit than I did. ;) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From aaron at wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 20 14:00:48 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: ebay: Microcomputers and Memories book In-Reply-To: <199810201824.AA18849@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Megan wrote: > Geez, these things were free for the asking... I've got literally > 8 shelves of the dec handbooks from over the years (back to 1969). > I got on a mailing list to get new ones automatically when such > was possible... it was great. > > (Oh yeah, the above is -11 and vax related only... I've got another > shelf of pdp8 and module and cabling handbooks... then I've also > got the software sourcebooks) Ah, but for those of us with a documentation deficiency, no experience, and a brand-new interest in DEC, this is pure gold. Keep in mind that my first "real" computer, when I was a kid, was an Atari 800XL (not counting the Vic20 I played around with when I was 6)... From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 20 14:04:26 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <199810201125.NAA18135@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > > But Allison does NOT make those kinds of errors. That's part of what > > makes it so notable and what makes it so irresistable to chide her when > > she does make a typo. > > She ? I think this is almost qualifying as a FAQ entry: Section X.Y.Z: List Participants Q. Is Allison Parent a woman? A. Yes. Q. Is Tony Duell really a supercomputer with an incomprehensively large database of factual knowledge and highly advanced artificial intelligence algorithms? A. Maybe :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Oct 20 13:39:56 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <19981020183957.9003.qmail@hotmail.com> My point was that only recently has it become so that there is nothing more than an Alpha or an PII. There are many parallel implementations, but nothing like the difference between an Altair and an S/360. Yes, I know there are many computers way more powerful than CompUSA desktops, but the point is that they're just parallel implementations and there isn't so much of a class distinction. >Irrelevant to the discussion for two reasons: > >1) No one has made mainframes out of discrete transistors since the >late 60s. > >2) Almost all modern mainframes are based on monolithic microprocessors. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mbg at world.std.com Tue Oct 20 14:56:36 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: ebay: Microcomputers and Memories book Message-ID: <199810201956.AA20590@world.std.com> >Ah, but for those of us with a documentation deficiency, no experience, >and a brand-new interest in DEC, this is pure gold. Keep in mind that my >first "real" computer, when I was a kid, was an Atari 800XL (not counting >the Vic20 I played around with when I was 6)... Point taken... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From oajones at bright.net Tue Oct 20 15:26:33 1998 From: oajones at bright.net (oajones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: How is a microprocessor made? Message-ID: <362CF1F9.147B@bright.net> I've always wanted to ask this question. How is a microprocessor made? Can someone here on the list answer this question? --Alan oajones@bright.net From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 20 15:46:27 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: How is a microprocessor made? Message-ID: <199810202046.AA15710@world.std.com> < I've always wanted to ask this question. How is a microprocessor made? < Can someone here on the list answer this question? Very carefully. Actually that is not a joke as it is a very precise process. The process is generally the same as making any integrated circuit save for microprocessors are more complex. The basic idea is that a piece of polished pure crystaline silicon has areas photographically marked and either etched away or doped (infused) with other chemicals (like boron, arsenic, others) to alter the local properties of the silicon to form transistors where and as needed. Other steps put metalization like printed circuit board traces to interconnect active areas on the chip. Once complete they are tested seperated and mounted in holders. All of this is done on a scale of size that is in the range of 1/100000th of an inch and smaller. So the "very carefully" comment is valid and speaks to the level of accuracy and cleanliness needed. That is a pretty trivial description but a detailed one could fill volumes quickly. Allison From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 20 15:55:44 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: How is a microprocessor made? In-Reply-To: <199810202046.AA15710@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981020155544.00ea77c0@pc> I've sometimes thought about a microscopic CPU collection, sacrificing old chips and mounting them on microscope slides. I've got a few old (circa 1984) samples of four-inch wafers from HP. I'd like to get a few more. Does anyone know of a way to get today's larger wafers, or rejected dies? Intel might be putting them in keychains, but I'd like some bare. - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 20 12:37:42 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: IBM AT Piggyback Memory In-Reply-To: <199810200445.AAA21593@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@pop.cgocable.net" at Oct 20, 98 00:50:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 420 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/76195454/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 20 12:43:54 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Odd Meas. Units In-Reply-To: <981019233824.21a000b5@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 19, 98 11:38:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 421 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/28edef8b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 20 12:41:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <981019220418.21a000b5@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 19, 98 10:04:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 299 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/96c8dd01/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 20 13:13:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: from "KNIGHT G.A" at Oct 20, 98 12:39:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 904 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/7c519497/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 20 13:31:30 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: <362C84C4.A6BB06D1@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Oct 20, 98 08:40:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2590 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/fe775284/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 20 16:45:20 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Odd Meas. Units Message-ID: <981020174520.21a00139@trailing-edge.com> >> Is there some landmark "first commercial use" of the classic T1-3/4 >> individual LED package that's so common today? Were there early >> LED packages that just completely disappeared? >I've used LEDs on what seemed to be a TO18 header (like a 2N2222 >transistor) with an epoxy top. I've also seen an LED (the number MiLED >500 springs to mind) in a clear TO92 package. Neither are common today. Are LED's in TO18 cans with epoxy tops completely gone? I've certainly seen them used in the past couple years in optical emitter/sensor combinations. Tim. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 20 16:41:23 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: How is a microprocessor made? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981020155544.00ea77c0@pc> (message from John Foust on Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:55:44 -0500) References: <3.0.1.32.19981020155544.00ea77c0@pc> Message-ID: <19981020214123.28421.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I've got a few old (circa 1984) samples of four-inch wafers > from HP. I'd like to get a few more. Does anyone know of a way > to get today's larger wafers, or rejected dies? Intel might > be putting them in keychains, but I'd like some bare. It used to be fairly easy to get reject wafers (which result when there's a serious enough defect that none of the dice are expected to be functional). However, since wafers are fairly expensive, there's a new industry of wafer reclamation that takes reject wafers, shaves off the top, and polishes them so they can be reused. Most manufacturers do not use reclaimed wafers for production, but only for engineering samples during the development process. Rejected dice are somewhat easier to get, since there's generally no way to reclaim them. However, the manufacturers don't sell them due to both lack of demand and liability issues. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Oct 20 16:53:33 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: How is a microprocessor made? In-Reply-To: <362CF1F9.147B@bright.net> from "oajones" at Oct 20, 1998 04:26:33 PM Message-ID: <199810202153.PAA17372@calico.litterbox.com> I can speak for the process of fabricating the chips in broad terms. First, take your silicon wafers. They're cut from a single enormous crystal of silicon, usually 6-8 inches in diameter. Place a layer a few molecules thick of silicon oxide on it. (I think that's what the layers are made of) Coat the wafer in photo resist. expose the photoresist through the "negative" of the pattern for the first layer. Now wash off the unexposed photoresist and etch away the exposed oxide layer with acid. Now wash away the exposed photoresist. Now add another layer. Layers can be various things - silicon oxide, metal, etc. Some layers are conductors, some are insulators, some are semiconductors. Each layer has a pattern etched into it, and the registration between layers as well as the completeness of traces and so forth is checked with an electron microscope. How many layers? How fine a detail? I really can't talk about those things (even if I HAD memorised the actual numbers, which I didn't.) Lots of layers, and Texas Instruments recently announced that they can now etch down to .03 microns, and made it clear this was a LOT smaller than existing technology. Number of layers? I'd say "lots". How many microprocessors on an 8 inch wafer? How many of THEM are good? Again, trade secrets. "Lots" is all I can say. How the things are designed I have no clue. My days at Intel were spent in a production fab keeping the Unix equipment control computers breathing, and solving user problems with the big CAM system over the phone. (more caviets) I never actually was certified on any of the equipment that MAKES microprocessors. They gave me the 10,000 foot view so the names of the various machines my computers ran made sense to me, but frankly they could have been making potato chips and it wouldn't have changed MY job much. (except for not having to wear a bunny suit, and different hazardous materials. :) If you live in the SanFrancisco Bay area, Intel has a good illustration of the whole process (and cool video to watch the D2 fab - where I worked - in action) in the Intel museum, at Intel Santa Clara. (2200 Mission College Blvd, Santa Clara, CA) I *believe* the museum is open to the public, as it's inside the main office building off the lobby. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Oct 20 17:09:58 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: wafers , dice, etc. Message-ID: <199810202209.QAA17470@calico.litterbox.com> Intel DOES sell the individual dice as keychains. The most beautiful wafers are the ones that have gone through the gold layer, but I've never seen those for sale. I seem to recall someone getting one as a plaque for service above and beyond the call of duty at one point, but that was the only time. Blanks and old 4 inch wafers used to be for sale at a gem dealer in Los Altos on San Antonio Road. They had some 4 inch wafers, some 4 inch crystals , ends of crystals, and so forth. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Oct 20 17:13:18 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: <01bdfc20$8d27f100$e9c962cf@devlaptop> from "Mike" at Oct 20, 98 07:55:37 am Message-ID: <199810202213.PAA28082@saul9.u.washington.edu> > I prefer the original systems... The tactile response from an IBM PC > keyboard, the design elegance of an Atari 800, the iterative building of a > screen dump on a HP-85.... this list goes on and on... Sometimes emulation is nice too. Otherwise you have to live with the design elegance of the IBM PC and the tactile response from an Atari 800 keyboard. (Actually the 800 is nice but the 400, XL, and XE machines have lousy key- boards.) But seriously, my view is that emulation has its place. I don't have the space for original hardware, so emulation lets me play with stuff I otherwise wouldn't be able to use. Sometimes it can improve on the original system by giving better debugging or snapshot saving or being faster. But I want to stress that emulation can only be a good *imitation* of the original hardware, and a lot of the nuances of using the hardware are totally missing from emulation. Often, emulation is a *bad* imitation of the hardware. So don't throw hardware away just because it can be emulated! -- Derek From aaron at wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 20 17:30:46 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: I try not to think of myself as a "kitsch" collector; that is, collecting machines just because of the neat-o lights and yumy clicking noises. But that stuff is important. There are Z80 emulators, sure, but half of the experience of using a Kaypro is un-latching that cool wedge keyboard and watching that grainy green display. And speaking of displays, what about the Osborne display? I remember my best friend's dad calling Compuserve with that little screen! The whole fun of having Atari 8-bits was all the easy hardware projects in Antic magazine; it was like one of those "500-in-one" electronics kits, but with a computer! Now that I'm in adolescence #2, I'm going back and building them all again (only now my solder joints don't look like arc welds). You can't do that with an emulator! And there's no emulator for that nifty Cadnetix circuit-design workstation I got last year, either. Emulators can be handy for preserving software and learning how to use a new system (I've been running the PDP-11 emulator simultaneously with a web browser book-marked to RT-11 help sites), but like Tony said, they will never replace the joy of discovery and the pride that comes with fixing and maintaining the original machines. Just my $.02, Aaron From aaron at wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 20 17:32:44 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: <199810202213.PAA28082@saul9.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > (Actually the 800 is nice but the 400, XL, and XE machines have lousy key- > boards.) Bite your tongue! The 1200XL had the nicest keyboard of the lot! From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Oct 20 17:34:11 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: wafers , dice, etc. In-Reply-To: <199810202209.QAA17470@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Jim Strickland wrote: > Intel DOES sell the individual dice as keychains. The most beautiful wafers > are the ones that have gone through the gold layer, but I've never seen those > for sale... Well... if you are traveling in the area, check out the gift shops in the San Jose (Calif.) airport. I flew in there for VCF II and just about every one of them had wafers for sale. You had to root thru the racks a bit to find the nice looking ones, but they were in there. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 20 16:20:27 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 20, 98 12:04:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 274 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/2620a987/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 20 16:30:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: How is a microprocessor made? In-Reply-To: <362CF1F9.147B@bright.net> from "oajones" at Oct 20, 98 04:26:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1230 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/cacb8b60/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 20 17:23:13 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 I/O ports? Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 276 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/74604658/attachment.ksh From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Oct 20 17:43:50 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Oct 20, 98 03:32:44 pm Message-ID: <199810202243.PAA30900@saul9.u.washington.edu> > On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > > (Actually the 800 is nice but the 400, XL, and XE machines have lousy key- > > boards.) > > Bite your tongue! The 1200XL had the nicest keyboard of the lot! OK, OK, consider it bitten. I talked to a dealer at the VCF about buying an Atari; the 1200XL is the one model I didn't play with. Other people at the VCF recommended the 1200XL key- board too. The only problem is that there's no standard way to expand the RAM. (If I'm going to write an Atari program, it should run on standard configurations, not just my wierd set-up. So if I soup up a 1200XL but no one else can run my program, there's not much value in my enhancements.) Why couldn't Atari combine the best features of all the 8-bit machines and make a perfect 8-bit machine? Or if they did, why couldn't they sell it? -- Derek From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 20 17:34:59 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Odd Meas. Units In-Reply-To: <981020174520.21a00139@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 20, 98 05:45:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 378 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981020/30742cd4/attachment.ksh From aaron at wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 20 18:38:04 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: <199810202243.PAA30900@saul9.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Actually, I think you can still buy 1200xl keyboards from B&C (you used to be able to buy them from Radio Shack!) and I have the info for interfacing it to the 800XL, if you're interested. It mounts pretty well and the response and layout make it well worth the work. On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > > On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > > > (Actually the 800 is nice but the 400, XL, and XE machines have lousy key- > > > boards.) > > > > Bite your tongue! The 1200XL had the nicest keyboard of the lot! > > OK, OK, consider it bitten. > > I talked to a dealer at the VCF about buying an Atari; the 1200XL is the one > model I didn't play with. Other people at the VCF recommended the 1200XL key- > board too. The only problem is that there's no standard way to expand the > RAM. (If I'm going to write an Atari program, it should run on standard > configurations, not just my wierd set-up. So if I soup up a 1200XL but no one > else can run my program, there's not much value in my enhancements.) > > Why couldn't Atari combine the best features of all the 8-bit machines and > make a perfect 8-bit machine? Or if they did, why couldn't they sell it? > > -- Derek > From dburrows at netpath.net Tue Oct 20 19:09:41 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors Message-ID: <026401bdfc87$3a04a790$a60b0b0b@p166> > silliness of the phrase "partial vacuum" repeatedly... I'll completely > leave out the concept of "vacuum leak"!) Oh, I've been known to say 'That valve (tube) is white round the top. Somebody has let the vacuum out' Seems like quite a reasonable way of putting it :-) Try explaining how important a tight vacuum system on a mass spectrometer is to some PHD chemists. Not to mention how to find the leaks. It is amazing how little they teach in "leading" colleges today. Definately NO common sense. So often all the problem consists of is the last thing they worked on but did that enter their mind? Dan From handyman at sprintmail.com Tue Oct 20 08:03:15 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:31 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 I/O ports? References: Message-ID: <362C8A13.42433DEA@sprintmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Does anyone have a list (or a URL) of the I/O ports on the TRS-80 Model > 4, both their addresses and what the bits in each port do? > > I am particularly looking for info on the ports that control the CPU > speed, memory mapping and the video system. Hi Tony, Try this web site out, http://www.trade80.com/trs80/ it supports many of the TRS-80 line of computers.. Should find what you want there, if not I have a service manual for the TRS-80 Model III computer and perhaps they use the same bus.. Hope this helps.. Phil... From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 20 19:59:51 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > The original machine, no contest!. An emulator can't possibly include the > wonderful hot-component smells, hardware problems, being able to stick a > logic probe anywhere you like, the joys of fixing the darn thing, etc. SO how long is it before some really enthusiastic hacker creates a 3D emulator using a graphics engine like that in DOOM, that allows you to pop open the cover and go INSIDE the machine, home in on specific ICs, resistors, capacitors, etc. and stick a probe or voltmeter up to the leads? Basically, it would incorporate a CAD system with a SPICE system. You could then get really agressive and add a toolbar that has a probe, voltmeter, soldering iron, solder, and a whole warehouse of parts (74xx series TTL, resistors, caps, transformers, transistors, etc) so you can make hardware mods to the system. Later on, when they invent the Scent Printer (a device which emits the smells of the computer you are working on) you'll be able to know when you've shorted something because all of a sudden a foul, toxic cloud will be emitted. I don't think this is so much of a fantasy. Its a lot of work, but it could be done (ok, save for the Scent Printer part). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Oct 20 19:57:03 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810210105.VAA12163@gate.usaor.net> > > silliness of the phrase "partial vacuum" repeatedly... I'll completely > > leave out the concept of "vacuum leak"!) > > Oh, I've been known to say 'That valve (tube) is white round the top. > Somebody has let the vacuum out' > > Seems like quite a reasonable way of putting it :-) > > Try explaining how important a tight vacuum system on a mass spectrometer is > to some PHD chemists. Not to mention how to find the leaks. It is amazing > how little they teach in "leading" colleges today. Definately NO common > sense. So often all the problem consists of is the last thing they worked > on but did that enter their mind? > Dan > > I'm 15 years old, and even I know that a leaky tube [in a radio] reduces the sound quality, the loudness (depending if it's an amp tube or not), reduces the life of the tube, possibly can cause a short in the tube, and can possibly weaken other components. a leaky tube in a TV will occasionally cause a bad (or no) picture. I think the only reason that I know this is that I collect antique radios. maybe I'm just odd... -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Oct 20 20:06:12 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <199810210116.VAA14687@gate.usaor.net> > > I don't think this is so much of a fantasy. Its a lot of work, but it > could be done (ok, save for the Scent Printer part). > well, if you could convince one of those "automatic air freshener" companies that sell the mist things to make a unit that would give off "computer smells", you may be in business. just add a solenoid to the top of each aeresol can topus the button for that particular smell, wire them into a parallel interface, and you'd be in business. Just trying to convince them would be the fun part. Anyway, it's still better when you get to work with the actual equipment, and having the thrill of finding a 'scope in the trash and fixing it, or finding scrap parts, throwing something together, and possibly building the next Cray - complete with 46 K RAM, and a 20 MB HD - all for under $30, and housed in an old washing machine - also pulled from the curb :^) -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Oct 20 20:29:40 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors Message-ID: maybe? the answer here is obvious! i'm always taken aback by the wealth of knowledge his brain/storage devices hold! In a message dated 10/20/98 2:06:01 PM US Eastern Standard Time, dastar@ncal.verio.com writes: > Q. Is Tony Duell really a supercomputer with an incomprehensively large > database of factual knowledge and highly advanced artificial intelligence > algorithms? > A. Maybe From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Oct 20 20:40:06 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <2546869e.362d3b76@aol.com> heh, that sounds like a cool idea. then you could have fix-it contests similar to what one car company did. they'd mess something up on several cars and then teams of young mechanics would race to diagnose and fix the problem first. just dont forget to make the program windont9x compatible. lol. In a message dated 10/20/98 8:01:31 PM US Eastern Standard Time, dastar@ncal.verio.com writes: > SO how long is it before some really enthusiastic hacker creates a 3D > emulator using a graphics engine like that in DOOM, that allows you to pop > open the cover and go INSIDE the machine, home in on specific ICs, > resistors, capacitors, etc. and stick a probe or voltmeter up to the > leads? Basically, it would incorporate a CAD system with a SPICE system. > You could then get really agressive and add a toolbar that has a probe, > voltmeter, soldering iron, solder, and a whole warehouse of parts (74xx > series TTL, resistors, caps, transformers, transistors, etc) so you can > make hardware mods to the system. Later on, when they invent the Scent > Printer (a device which emits the smells of the computer you are working > on) you'll be able to know when you've shorted something because all of a > sudden a foul, toxic cloud will be emitted. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 20 20:53:54 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Commie stuff for sale Message-ID: Here's some stuff being offered up for sale. Please CONTACT THE SELLER, not me. I'm just passing this along... Reply to: al2@acpub.duke.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:55:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Anthony Lagnese > On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Anthony Lagnese wrote: > > > Wow, I was hoping for prices like these for the 64, 1200, and monitor... > > > > $15 for the C64. > > $20 for the Amiga 1200 > > $5 for the printer > > $1 for the 5.25 drive > > $10 for the monitor From spc at armigeron.com Wed Oct 21 22:24:21 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: How is a microprocessor made? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 20, 98 10:30:10 pm Message-ID: <199810220324.XAA05431@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 742 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981021/6bf838e4/attachment.ksh From dburrows at netpath.net Tue Oct 20 21:30:23 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors Message-ID: <079701bdfc9b$9be41b30$a60b0b0b@p166> > >I think the only reason that I know this is that I collect antique radios. >maybe I'm just odd... >-- > -Jason >(roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#-1730318 Let me know if you are in need of any particular old tubes. I still have a lot that are new in the original boxes and some more used ones. I just could not trash them - nostalgia I guess not to mention that they are getting much more difficult to find. For the hobbyists I would only ask that you cover the shipping. Commercial use would be different. Dan Burrows dburrows@netpath.net From aaron at wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 20 21:58:53 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: How is a microprocessor made? In-Reply-To: <199810220324.XAA05431@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Heck, even learn assembly to boot! My biggest gripe about how CS is > taught these days is that they start out with the latest and greatest and > tend to forget the history. No other field is taught that way. Some of us are here as products of modern CS programs who have figured out that we missed something valuable and interesting... To be fair, they left all the "latest/greatest" stuff like Visual Developer/Java and taught us things like binary multiplication, boolean algebra, etc. before anything else. I'm finding it to be an excellent jumping-off point for actually starting to learn about *computers*... From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Oct 20 21:50:26 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: whistling mac plus Message-ID: i'm putting together a mac+ for someone and while testing it, i noticed it started clicking inside. then later, the machine started making a high pitched whistling noise, almost kinda like what you hear when you're close to the back of a tv while it's on. the video worked fine however. i presume it's a power supply problem, but can anyone say what component is failing here? smacking the left side of the case would make the whistling quit, although the clicking continued. i fear it's probably that infamous cold solder joint issue. i'm looking at a spare mac power supply board; does anyone know any exact locations of common solder joint failures? finally, if i do touch up some contacts with a soldering iron, MUST the high voltage lead be discharged? i'm hoping i can just remove the protective cardboard cover, reheat the solder joints and not even go near the HT lead or tube at all. david From Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU Tue Oct 20 22:07:41 1998 From: Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: whistling mac plus Message-ID: <10074852@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> --- SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: i fear it's probably that infamous cold solder joint issue. i'm looking at a spare mac power supply board; does anyone know any exact locations of common solder joint failures? finally, if i do touch up some contacts with a soldering iron, MUST the high voltage lead be discharged? i'm hoping i can just remove the protective cardboard cover, reheat the solder joints and not even go near the HT lead or tube at all. --- end of quote --- In my experience, the C-shaped ring of joints corresponding to the flyback transformer go bad pretty often. Also, I've re-soldered them before without discharging the high voltage lead, and everything's been okay afterward, but maybe that's just lucky. If you DO discharge it, do NOT ground to the chassis -- I read once that the logic board components are too delicate to share ground with a jolt like that. Use the screw on a wallplate or something instead. Good luck! -- MB From mbg at world.std.com Tue Oct 20 22:30:03 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: HP85 - need info Message-ID: <199810210330.AA12290@world.std.com> I picked up a working HP85 this past weekend at the MIT flea... The person I got it from told me that he had 8 or so of them at the beginning of the day, and some of them had IEEE options and manuals, etc... Anyway, I have no manual for it and I was hoping someone might have one they could either make a copy of for me, or provide some information about the machine. Please contact me off-line. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From danjo at xnet.com Tue Oct 20 22:38:22 1998 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <199810210105.VAA12163@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > I think the only reason that I know this is that I collect antique radios. > maybe I'm just odd... Whoa - change that view - You are not odd - just exceptional 8-) BC From danjo at xnet.com Tue Oct 20 22:42:18 1998 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Oct 1998 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > maybe? the answer here is obvious! i'm always taken aback by the wealth of > knowledge his brain/storage devices hold! > > In a message dated dastar@ncal.verio.com writes: > > Q. Is Tony Duell really a supercomputer with an incomprehensively > > large database of factual knowledge and highly advanced artificial > > intelligence algorithms? > > A. Maybe Bah - All he does in sit in a room with a lot of REALLY handy books! Well - that and the fact that maybe he listened when someone told him at a young and tender age to - RTFM! BC From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Oct 20 23:23:42 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: How is a microprocessor made? In-Reply-To: <199810202046.AA15710@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 20, 98 04:46:27 pm Message-ID: <199810210423.VAA06133@fraser.sfu.ca> There's an excellent book on this: The Microprocessor: A Biography, by Michael Malone. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From stan at netcom.com Tue Oct 20 23:22:38 1998 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: HP85 - need info References: <199810210330.AA12290@world.std.com> Message-ID: <362D618E.4E92A52E@netcom.com> Megan, I've owned a couple of HP-85s, and, although I don't have a manual to send you, I can probably answer some basic (no pun intended!) questions about it. Ask away! Regards, Stan From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Oct 20 23:24:59 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: wafers , dice, etc. In-Reply-To: <199810202209.QAA17470@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Oct 20, 98 04:09:58 pm Message-ID: <199810210424.VAA06578@fraser.sfu.ca> See www.intel.com, I bought some Pentium keychains a couple of years ago. They're about $4. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue Oct 20 23:33:53 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Odd Meas. Units Message-ID: <199810210433.AAA09987@dgs.cs.unc.edu> ] The attoparsec/microfortnight is remarkably close to the inch/second. ] Quite useful for quoting tape speeds :-) A friend of mine once made a PostScript ruler scaled in attoparsecs. I just found it and slapped it into my web directory. Here's the URL: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/ruler.ap.ps Of course, this depends on your printer being accurate, but the "B" side is marked off in inches, so you could at least compare with a trusted ruler to see if your printer needs adjustment. Um, PostScript is classic, isn't it? :-) Cheers, Bill. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 20 23:49:01 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: MS-DOS type-ahead buffer limit? Message-ID: Does anyone know why MS decided to limit the type-ahead buffer in MS-DOS to 16 characters? Also, why they never increased this over time? Basically on-topic. I really want to know because I've always cursed it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From spc at armigeron.com Thu Oct 22 00:54:10 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: MS-DOS type-ahead buffer limit? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 20, 98 09:49:01 pm Message-ID: <199810220554.BAA05661@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 485 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/3c6b742f/attachment.ksh From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Tue Oct 20 20:57:23 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: whistling mac plus In-Reply-To: <10074852@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <199810210552.BAA16655@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: 20 Oct 98 23:07:41 EDT > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Marion.Bates@Dartmouth.EDU (Marion Bates) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: whistling mac plus > --- SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > i fear it's probably that infamous cold solder joint issue. i'm > looking at a spare mac power supply board; does anyone know any exact > locations of common solder joint failures? finally, if i do touch up some > contacts with a soldering iron, MUST the high voltage lead be discharged? i'm > hoping i can just remove the protective cardboard cover, reheat the solder > joints and not even go near the HT lead or tube at all. > --- end of quote --- > > In my experience, the C-shaped ring of joints corresponding to the flyback transformer go bad pretty often. Also, I've re-soldered them before without discharging the high voltage lead, and everythin> > Good luck! Not needed to discharge that tube but if that gives you shivers when coming close to guts of that mac, build youself a discharging tool for that: Take a old red wire off a duff flyback snip it in half/half length terminate one in clip on terminal and a probe on other end then connecto all in series to that pack made of one or 2 10W 1meg ohms power resistors all covered up in epoxy and in tube because epoxy alone is too brittle. Discharging process: clip that to the tube grounding strap that go across from two corners and carefully slip under that rubber cup to touch that metallic spring hook that is stuck into the lipped metal cup on that tube surface. Discharge is very quick and less scary this way than a blue arc with a loud snap! Do by soldering and add a bit of new solder wire to all the connector pins, flyback pins and heavy component leads and any thing that are hot looking. Don't bother the logic board it's better designed anyway. This does usually doesn't address the shortcomings of this analog boards in all of common compact Macs; those damnable 3.9uF bipolar capacitor going bad, burning the pin 1 on yoke connector and cook the inductor L1 coil if not caught early. Again, the shortcomings in the PSU and in video circuit on that board. That, can be addressed all the potiential problem by getting a rebuild kit from CSS or Data Display Ltd (Canadian version of CSS. Not more than $30 in needed rebuild kit. The whistle noise is from either PSU components vibrating or the horizontal section components vibrating. Touch each components with plastic or wooden stick until that noise stops or change in pitch and you catch the baddie. :-) Oh, don't foget those ferrie cores on that flyback and anything like that on coils and transformers. Oh, Whistling could be sign of a bad flyback arcing internally or along the high voltage wire. Jason D. > > -- MB email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Oct 21 02:05:24 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Classics I'm Interested In Message-ID: <8755f2e5.362d87b4@aol.com> Bill; I am on the Board of Directors for the Oregon Country Fair and this is a very busy month. I am on the road a lot and often unable to reply. I just returned home. I got your message and will call you tomorrow. The Cromemcos have all been sold as have the Smoke Signal Broadcasting systems. I still have Tek, Viewpoint 2 Software & the wavemate Jupiter. Looking through an early Byte I ran across a Jupiter 7 running a high res monitor. Since this has no model number and is all wirewrap I suspect this is an early prototype. Paxton From dogas at leading.net Wed Oct 21 04:18:56 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: MS-DOS type-ahead buffer limit? Message-ID: <01bdfcd3$d456cfc0$e9c962cf@devlaptop> I think the the type ahead buffer is just a ring buffer config'd with a few bios values and easily reprogrammable... more info available if needed... - Mike: dogas@leading.net From dogas at leading.net Wed Oct 21 04:45:05 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: HP85 - need info Message-ID: <01bdfcd7$7b3ceb00$e9c962cf@devlaptop> Hi Megan, I've got a hp-85 manual *somewhere* that I'll try to find... in the mean time, to get you started: DISP = PRINT (to screen) CRT IS x PRINTER IS x where x = device code: 1 for screen or 2for printer so, you can prints to screen and screen output to printer.... try LDIR 90 and then a PRINT/DISP for some coolness as well.... I'll look for the manual - Mike dogas@leading.net -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 11:51 PM Subject: HP85 - need info > >I picked up a working HP85 this past weekend at the MIT flea... > >The person I got it from told me that he had 8 or so of them at >the beginning of the day, and some of them had IEEE options and >manuals, etc... > >Anyway, I have no manual for it and I was hoping someone might >have one they could either make a copy of for me, or provide >some information about the machine. Please contact me off-line. > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > From mbg at world.std.com Wed Oct 21 06:10:46 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: HP85 - need info References: <199810210330.AA12290@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810211110.AA05279@world.std.com> Thanks very much... first thing I'd like to know is how do I output to the screen only... I know PRINT will go to the printer (strange, that), but I'd like to output to the screen only. Megan From mbg at world.std.com Wed Oct 21 06:14:29 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: HP85 - need info Message-ID: <199810211114.AA18222@world.std.com> Sorry about that... I thought the person had replied to me directly... that'l teach me to check the headers... Megan From fauradon at pclink.com Wed Oct 21 06:24:35 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: HP85 - need info Message-ID: <001801bdfce5$6293b6c0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Hey it's OK maybe others will be interested in the discussion Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 6:16 AM Subject: Re: HP85 - need info > >Sorry about that... I thought the person had replied to me directly... >that'l teach me to check the headers... > > Megan > From fauradon at pclink.com Wed Oct 21 06:31:40 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: HP85 - need info Message-ID: <001b01bdfce6$602a3b60$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Oh and by the way I have the manual sitting on my desk right now (actually on top of my scanner). If you're still interested I could scan the 7 pages of the glossary and BASIC syntax guidelines and place it on my wed site tonight (I wanted to do that for several machines anyway). There is also 5 pages of error codes right after that (If I have time I'll set it up too) Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 6:16 AM Subject: Re: HP85 - need info > >Sorry about that... I thought the person had replied to me directly... >that'l teach me to check the headers... > > Megan > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 21 07:50:28 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <199810211250.AA27554@world.std.com> < just dont forget to make the program windont9x compatible. lol. never work. They'd get confused and try to fix winders. ;) Allison From gram at cnct.com Wed Oct 21 07:56:52 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: MS-DOS type-ahead buffer limit? References: <199810220554.BAA05661@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <362DDA14.FD5AA4AC@cnct.com> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Sam Ismail once stated: > > > > > > Does anyone know why MS decided to limit the type-ahead buffer in MS-DOS > > to 16 characters? Also, why they never increased this over time? > > That's not a DOS limit, but a BIOS limit. Blame IBM. > > -spc (That, and for IRQ conflicts. Thanks IBM. [1]) > > [1] Yes, the IBM AT fixed that, but it required a bit more hardware to > exist on the cards, and if you used a PC or XT card you still > couldn't share IRQs. Sigh. The Tandy 2000 had a full kilobyte of typeahead at need. Due to its speed, the need was rare. That, at least as much as the better keyboard, better display and higher speed, was a real nice feature of the machine. So it didn't play the most popular graphics games. That's what game consoles are for. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From william at ans.net Wed Oct 21 08:08:14 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <19981019213543.22773.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Yes, and again that proves my point. A discrete transistor based computer > can not compete with a high-end monolithic microprocessor. The laws of > physics conspire against it. Well, I think everyone can agree on that today, or anything past the 80386. > Motorola claims to have started shipping ECL integrated circuits in 1962. > Why were people still building computers using discrete transistors for > years after that? Many of the high-end computers used discrete > implementations of non-saturating logic that was very similar to ECL. The MECL 1 family dates to the early or mid 1960s, and really was fast for the time (something like 7 nS tpd average). They came in cans (I do not know if the DIP was developed yet. By 1969, they were obsolete. I do not know if any computer used them. Discrete transistor machines hung on until the late 1960s, simply because ICs were so darn expensive. At a few dollars per _gate_, lots of transistors and all of the board real estate starts to look good. William Donzelli william@ans.net From franke at sbs.de Wed Oct 21 09:32:52 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810211313.PAA19623@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>Irrelevant to the discussion for two reasons: >>1) No one has made mainframes out of discrete transistors since the late 60s. >>2) Almost all modern mainframes are based on monolithic microprocessors. > My point was that only recently has it become so that there is nothing > more than an Alpha or an PII. There are many parallel implementations, > but nothing like the difference between an Altair and an S/360. Yes, I > know there are many computers way more powerful than CompUSA desktops, > but the point is that they're just parallel implementations and there > isn't so much of a class distinction. Do you want to tell us that the mainframe world didn't evolve ? Boy, they also have new and quite speedy new processors - for example, the new SIEMENS S150 delivers around 93 RPF on a single CPU and a sustained rate of 760 RPF on a 12 CPU configuration. RPF (Relative Performance Factor) is a SIEMENS unit to classify the relative speed of their processors. The baseunit is a processor from the beginnign of the 80's. Even in the main frame (/390 compatible) world it's hard to compare processors just by speed, since the manufacturers use different architectures below. So every one has his own measurement. IBM uses their MIPS (misleading informations on processor speed) as a guideline - but even these are just a definde rate: they just fixed the 9672-R15 as base with 63 MIPS. A rough conversation between IBM MIPS and SIEMENS RPF is 1.3 to 1.5 - so die S150 deliveres between 140 and 1000 IBM MIPS sustained load at average mix. With the small SR2000 systems which are based on MIPS (now thats the processor manufacturer :) R10000 CPUs there is a guideline for transformation: one R10000 deliveres around 12 RPF or 15 MIPS at user level. (if you know take the MIPS R10000 MIPS rating you'll get also a fairly nice RISC to (IBM)CISC ratio, since the firmware interpreter used in the SR2000 is very performant) Now if you take the SpecInt value of the R10000 and of the Alpha or Pentium chips (sorry, I just not have them ready), one could base a comparisation on these values. If a Pentium deliveres about 10 times the performance of a R10000, they might reach te region of an actual mainframe (not any 60's transistor claim). But in fact these numbers are again way beside the actual usability - Mainframe performance is measured by thruput and things like transactions per second within a defind response time rather than raw CPU. Just take a look at http://www9.s390.ibm.com/lspr/ to get an idea how specific measurment in the mainframe world is don - not just instructions or megabytes per second. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From william at ans.net Wed Oct 21 08:27:19 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Mainframes vs PCs (was Re: discrete transistors) In-Reply-To: <199810192225.PAA15848@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: > Ok folks, its true that mainframes typically have had better I/O bandwidth > to their disk farms but that has changed. The PCI bus can and does sustain > greater than 100 Mb/s over it. The "old" PCI bus spec had it at 33Mhz * > 4bytes/write for 120Mbs and a properly designed PC can run the bus at 66Mhz > these days giving an opportunity for 240Mbs. AGP does somewhat better. 240 Mbps is dead slow for todays big iron. Most S/390s today have boatloads of fibrechannel on them - the old I/O channel architecture has been replaced. > The Crays and ConnectionMachines have, in the past, had the advantage of > being vector processors where typical mainframes were often SIMD machines > at best and simple pipelines at worst. Microprocessors caught up with the > SIMD wave with multi-ALU pipelining, and with the Katmai and AMD-K7 they > will get many of the vector features that made so-called "super computers" > so fast. Mainframes have never been designed for screaming CPU performance. In fact, if you quote something in "Mips" to a hardcore mainframe guy, he is going to look at you funny. Its all in the I/O. The upcoming vector features in the new chips really is nothing for the super people to get excited about. The features just are not that good - they will get choked on large vectors, moving them between the registers and memory. They may be good for games and MPEGs, but for high end simulation, forget it. By the way, most Connection Machines do not have vector units. > If you build a "PC" (Pentium II class) with 256MB of SDRAM and dual PCI > based fast/wide SCSI controllers running to a striped RAID array of "good" > SCSI disks you can "beat" a lot of mainframes. Of course you best them with > a $10,000 PC. You have not seen a "real" disk array, have you? Thousands of disks, capacity way up in the Tbytes. Two, or even twenty, fast/wide SCSI controllers is not going to cut the mustard. In fact, most very high end machines do not use any sort of SCSI, as it just does not perform well enough. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Wed Oct 21 08:41:11 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <19981020004043.4605.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > What amazes me is that no one has ever marketed a mainframe-like > machine out of modern processors. Someone mentioned they had made > one out of a 286 and some z80s, but why did no single company ever > sell any? I would think such machines could be very useful. One of the reasons (performance is another, but I think that has been beaten to death) is fault tolerance. Most mainframes are installed in banks and other financial institutions, where one day of downtime can be a major disaster. As far as I know, no x86 or 68xxx processor has ever had any degree of fault tolerance withing the chip, where it is needed. Getting it external to the chip generally involves triplicating everything and having voting circuits, which can be a right royal, pain dealing with the error conditions. Most mainframes, even ones from the 1960s, have error checking throughout the entire system - even in the paths between the registers and ALU. If something goes wrong, like a gate goes into a "stuck at" condition, the redundant circuits and error correctors will jump into action and processing will not stop. Most machines will call home and have replacement parts ordered and engineers busy. For example, a stadard joke (quite true, too) amongst Stratus users is "how do you know when your Stratus has broken? When the new part arrives the next day in FedEx." William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Wed Oct 21 08:45:24 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > WHat are you talking about? Pretty much the only super computers being > manufactured today are designed as massively parallel systems using > microprocessors. The T series from Cray, and some of the Japanese machines, are still in production. William Donzelli william@ans.net From franke at sbs.de Wed Oct 21 10:05:15 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: MS-DOS type-ahead buffer limit? Message-ID: <199810211346.PAA16559@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Does anyone know why MS decided to limit the type-ahead buffer in MS-DOS > to 16 characters? Also, why they never increased this over time? Basicly it's BIOS not DOS, And as the machines got faster, the need for the type ahead decreased. So blame IBM, but in fact, when tey designed BIOS they had mainly ASSM Apps in Mind - not this typ of slowish other things. And for an inteligent reprogrammable terminal/workstation 16 Bytes are quite enugh. > Basically on-topic. I really want to know because I've always cursed it. Just add one of the many vintage type ahead buffer enhancer. They have been yery popular, once upon a time... Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Wed Oct 21 10:05:15 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: How is a microprocessor made? Message-ID: <199810211346.PAA16621@marina.fth.sbs.de> > I've always wanted to ask this question. How is a microprocessor made? > Can someone here on the list answer this question? Take a hand full of sand, compress it, supply voltage and try to boot - if it doesn't work qout, change the sand - try until a result is reached. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Wed Oct 21 10:05:15 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810211346.PAA16768@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> But Allison does NOT make those kinds of errors. That's part of what >>> makes it so notable and what makes it so irresistable to chide her when >>> she does make a typo. >> She ? > I think this is almost qualifying as a FAQ entry: > Section X.Y.Z: List Participants > Q. Is Allison Parent a woman? > A. Yes. > Q. Is Tony Duell really a supercomputer with an incomprehensively large > database of factual knowledge and highly advanced artificial intelligence > algorithms? > A. Maybe Hey, I AM SOOOO SORRY. THis wasn't intendet for the list. I didn't know this is a girls name .. geeeeeee. sigh H. Oh, and add: Q: Is ist true, that the multi trillionaire Salam Ismail startet his fortune at the List, eBay and with his enormous VCF intake ? A: Well, sort of. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Wed Oct 21 10:05:15 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <199810211346.PAA16832@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> The original machine, no contest!. An emulator can't possibly include the >> wonderful hot-component smells, hardware problems, being able to stick a >> logic probe anywhere you like, the joys of fixing the darn thing, etc. > SO how long is it before some really enthusiastic hacker creates a 3D > emulator using a graphics engine like that in DOOM, that allows you to pop > open the cover and go INSIDE the machine, home in on specific ICs, > resistors, capacitors, etc. and stick a probe or voltmeter up to the > leads? [...] Later on, when they invent the Scent > Printer (a device which emits the smells of the computer you are working > on) you'll be able to know when you've shorted something because all of a > sudden a foul, toxic cloud will be emitted. > I don't think this is so much of a fantasy. Its a lot of work, but it > could be done (ok, save for the Scent Printer part). Salam, just forget it - i will never klick on an Open-The-Cover button (or point on wit a clumbsy glove) when I can feel the snap of an Apple ][+ case by my own. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Oct 21 09:38:01 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: How is a microprocessor made? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981020155544.00ea77c0@pc> References: <199810202046.AA15710@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981021093801.3d4797d2@intellistar.net> At 03:55 PM 10/20/98 -0500, you wrote: Does anyone know of a way >to get today's larger wafers, or rejected dies? Intel might >be putting them in keychains, but I'd like some bare. > Check with the scrap metal dealers that are located around any IC manufacturing plant. They often get that kind of stuff in their scrap. Joe From william at ans.net Wed Oct 21 08:51:20 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981020095602.00915230@47.161.112.121> Message-ID: > Although I never looked at the prints for one, all of the Cray 1's that I > had a chance to examine were not completely circular--there was always a > wedge missing. The small X/MPs typically used only about a third of the circle. The advantage to the form probably did not matter with such a small system, but it did keep the factory floor standard. The design persisted until the Y/MP (first style), where they went with the rude shape (well...look at it from above). When a tradional Cray had an SSD attached to it (essentially a boatload of secondary memory), the circle completed. The SSD, taking up the missing quarter of the circle, sat just a few feet out, connected by a big tube for the wires. > I suspect that the reason Seymour Cray built the machine in the shape he > did was that the circuit cards, plus the machined columns that supported > and cooled them, were wider than the card connectors. By arranging the > card columns in a semi-circle with the connectors on the inside, he could > minimize wiring length. Very true. William Donzelli william@ans.net From deker at digitaladdiction.com Wed Oct 21 09:01:19 1998 From: deker at digitaladdiction.com (Rob Deker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: TOPS-20 In-Reply-To: <199810210255.WAA02283@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > tcsh does that. (Love tcsh :-) > > tcsh just does filename completion, not command completion and there are > some areas where it doesn't work. For kicks, try the following: > both tcsh and bash will do command completion as well. And some interesting notes from the tcsh manual page: THE T IN TCSH In 1964, DEC produced the PDP-6. The PDP-10 was a later re-implementation. It was re-christened the DECsystem-10 in 1970 or so when DEC brought out the second model, the KI10. TENEX was created at Bolt, Beranek & Newman (a Cambridge, Mass. think tank) in 1972 as an experiment in demand-paged virtual memory operating systems. They built a new pager for the DEC PDP-10 and created the OS to go with it. It was extremely successful in academia. In 1975, DEC brought out a new model of the PDP-10, the KL10; they intended to have only a version of TENEX, which they had licensed from BBN, for the new box. They called their version TOPS-20 (their capitalization is trade- marked). A lot of TOPS-10 users (`The OPerating System for PDP-10') objected; thus DEC found themselves support- ing two incompatible systems on the same hardware--but then there were 6 on the PDP-11! TENEX, and TOPS-20 to version 3, had command completion via a user-code-level subroutine library called ULTCMD. With version 3, DEC moved all that capability and more into the monitor (`kernel' for you Unix types), accessed by the COMND% JSYS (`Jump to SYStem' instruction, the supervisor call mechanism [are my IBM roots also show- ing?]). The creator of tcsh was impressed by this feature and sev- eral others of TENEX and TOPS-20, and created a version of csh which mimicked them. From deker at digitaladdiction.com Wed Oct 21 09:04:23 1998 From: deker at digitaladdiction.com (Rob Deker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, KNIGHT G.A wrote: > As this forum is based upon Classic Computers I have a > theoretical question for you all. > Which do you prefer, the original system or an emulation? > Personally, I prefer the RealThing(tm). I'll settle for emulators where I have to, but there is just something about sitting at an old machine. I think a lot of it for me is the feel of the older keyboards, you just can't get that any more..... rob From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 21 09:31:53 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810211431.AA02727@world.std.com> < As far as I know, no x86 or 68xxx processor has ever had any degree of < fault tolerance withing the chip, where it is needed. Getting it externa Big time problem. Fault detection and instruction resequencing arent there. That makes even a simple parity error in ram unmanageable. < Most mainframes, even ones from the 1960s, have error checking throughou < the entire system - even in the paths between the registers and ALU. If I was told a story about an old 700 series where the cooling water for the rooms chiller found a leak. The leak was in the hundreds of gallons a minute rate. Oh, the 700 series is a vacuum tube machine so the under floor cable troughs have data and power cables galore. Seems the machine was still running fine when water started gushing out the bottom pannels of the racks. All the interconnection cables and PS units were soaked and it still ran! They shut down, fixed the pipe and dried the room and fired everything back up no problem. It was a general presumption that the machines due to the large number of parts would be unreliable. The designs were robust to say the least and in practice they were reliable, often far better than predicted. < something goes wrong, like a gate goes into a "stuck at" condition, the < redundant circuits and error correctors will jump into action and < processing will not stop. Most machines will call home and have Fault tolerence is an art in itself. Allison From gram at cnct.com Wed Oct 21 10:25:24 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors References: <199810211346.PAA16768@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <362DFCE4.787EC2FF@cnct.com> Hans Franke wrote: > > >>> But Allison does NOT make those kinds of errors. That's part of what > >>> makes it so notable and what makes it so irresistable to chide her when > >>> she does make a typo. > >> She ? > > > I think this is almost qualifying as a FAQ entry: > > Section X.Y.Z: List Participants > > > Q. Is Allison Parent a woman? > > A. Yes. > Hey, I AM SOOOO SORRY. > THis wasn't intendet for the list. > I didn't know this is a girls name .. > geeeeeee. It's one of many names that (in English-speaking countries anyway) is not gender-specific. Others include Marion and Gail (I had relatives with those names). I have a nephew named Stacy Lee Griffiths, both the first and middle names can apply to either gender, the combination sounds like a cheerleader from the mobile home parks of Mississippi. (At 25, after surviving a term is the Army with that name, he just bought his second apartment house -- the name hasn't harmed him where it matters, apparently). Some languages have the advantage of the same name applying to either gender with the change of a vowel at the end. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Oct 21 11:31:50 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: GRID question Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981021113150.230f9600@intellistar.net> I have a GRID laptop that has a hard drive was wiped. (It's good but empty). This machine uses an external disk drive. Does anyone have one they'll sell or loan me so that I can get the OS installed on the hard drive again? The laptop uses a DB-25 connector for the disk drive. Will any other external disk drive that has this connector work on the GRID? Joe From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 21 10:23:47 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981021102347.00f495c0@pc> At 05:59 PM 10/20/98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: > >SO how long is it before some really enthusiastic hacker creates a 3D >emulator using a graphics engine like that in DOOM, that allows you to pop >open the cover and go INSIDE the machine, home in on specific ICs, >resistors, capacitors, etc. and stick a probe or voltmeter up to the >leads? Basically, it would incorporate a CAD system with a SPICE system. Actually, a flavor of this exists, or will exist soon, in the form of network management software that lets you take a virtual reality tour of the (perhaps tens of thousands) of computers on the network you administer, and zoom in on a particular machine and peek inside to see which cards and storage units are installed. - John From ss at allegro.com Wed Oct 21 12:09:16 1998 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: MS-DOS type-ahead buffer limit? In-Reply-To: <199810211346.PAA16559@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: Re: > > Does anyone know why MS decided to limit the type-ahead buffer in MS-DOS > > to 16 characters? Also, why they never increased this over time? Lack of foresight? Lack of vision? > Basicly it's BIOS not DOS, And as the machines got faster, > the need for the type ahead decreased. Boy, is *that* wrong! :) I *still* run into the typeahead limits today, on the fastest machines around. 16 characters is probably fine when you're doing ordinary text entry, with no special machine tasks being requested. It *isn't* fine when you do something like: deltree foo > Just add one of the many vintage type ahead buffer enhancer. > They have been yery popular, once upon a time... I'd still be running the one I used to use ... but it stopped working as of Windows 3.1 :) From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Oct 21 12:24:04 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: MS-DOS type-ahead buffer limit? Message-ID: apple ][ users know that there is no type-ahead during disk access. I have a ][+ with an enhanced keyboard encoder board that gave it 255 character type- ahead at all times. it was cool to keep typing in program code while saving the file. only problem was playing games where you didnt want the game to keep reading repeated keypresses. thankfully, the type-ahead can be disabled by pressing the space bar when powering up. In a message dated 98-10-21 13:15:23 EDT, you write: << Re: > > Does anyone know why MS decided to limit the type-ahead buffer in MS-DOS > > to 16 characters? Also, why they never increased this over time? Lack of foresight? Lack of vision? > Basicly it's BIOS not DOS, And as the machines got faster, > the need for the type ahead decreased. Boy, is *that* wrong! :) I *still* run into the typeahead limits today, on the fastest machines around. 16 characters is probably fine when you're doing ordinary text entry, with no special machine tasks being requested. It *isn't* fine when you do something like: deltree foo > Just add one of the many vintage type ahead buffer enhancer. > They have been yery popular, once upon a time... I'd still be running the one I used to use ... but it stopped working as of Windows 3.1 :) >> From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 21 12:28:40 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: MS-DOS type-ahead buffer limit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Does anyone know why MS decided to limit the type-ahead buffer in MS-DOS > to 16 characters? Also, why they never increased this over time? Actually it was set in the BIOS, not in MS-DOS, but you've probably already gotten a few responses about that. It consists of 32 bytes (each "entry" has scan code, AND ASCII code, with "special" keys having 0 for their ASCII), configured as a circular buffer, with a pair of pointers ("head", "tail") chasing each other round and round. In addition to the two pointers (NEAR pointers, and therefore 16 bits each), there are also two 16 bit values for the start and end offset locations of the buffer. The BIOS code is based on an assumption of it being in segment 40h. If you want a big buffer anywhere else, then you'll need to redo the code. But IF you can grab a chunk of memory that is addressable as being in segment 40h, then all that you need to do is to adjust the four pointers (head, tail, start, end) to point to YOUR buffer. You won't be able to have a 64K buffer, but you might be able to make it bigger than you would want. TIP: since memory fills with STUFF as you boot, to be able to get some of segment 40h before it is all gone, CHEAT! Write your routine to load as if it were a device driver (NOT a command line program) - then you can grab that memory before anybody else does. There are three types of device drivers: block (disk like devices), character (stream), and BOGUS (used for mice drivers, keyboard buffer enhancers, etc.). Yours would merely need to have it's initialization code grab some RAM, confirm that it was addressable as segment 40h, and set the four pointers. The BAD news is that some programs don't have a clue what they are doing, and when they want to do something trivial like clear the keyboard buffer, will set the head and tail pointers back to "normal" values. > Basically on-topic. I really want to know because I've always cursed it. Hmmm. about the only time that _I_ curse the keyboard buffer is in LOTUS, where they created their own that is too BIG -- I'm trying to scroll a long ways, overshoot, try to scroll back, overshoot, etc. And, yes, the problem has existed more than 10 years. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From foxvideo at wincom.net Wed Oct 21 12:35:24 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: TRS80-4,i/o Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19981021133524.0079fcd0@mail.wincom.net> >Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:15:22 -0400 >To: ard@p850ugl.demon.co.uk >From: "Charles E. Fox" >Subject: TRS80-4,i/o > > > Hi, Tony: > > In the Model 4 reference manual there are four pages that seem to be relevant: > >#26-Model 4 I/O Bus, #27-I/O Bus Timing Diagram, #28 &29- Model 4 Port Bits. > >I can try scanning these and email them to you if you haven't dug up the information elsewhere. > > Charlie Fox Sorry to post this to the list, but when I tried your email address it bounced. Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Oct 21 13:50:21 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: [off topic] Bomb Threat. Message-ID: <13397599183.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> This is kinda off topic, but we've just had a bomb threat! No joke! Someone phoned in, asked for my boss, and said they put a bomb in the building! Why would someone bomb an ISP? Other than my boss is an Afican-American... (Native of Nigeria). ------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 21 13:55:05 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: MS-DOS type-ahead buffer limit? Message-ID: <981021145505.21a001b8@trailing-edge.com> >apple ][ users know that there is no type-ahead during disk access. Actually, there is a one character keyboard rollover, and that's there whether or not disk access is going on. Tim. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Oct 21 13:58:22 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:32 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <199810211858.OAA22516@dgs.cs.unc.edu> ] From: Sam Ismail ] ] SO how long is it before some really enthusiastic hacker creates a 3D ] emulator using a graphics engine like that in DOOM, that allows you to pop ] ... And how long before the machine on which that emulator runs is no longer supported by its manufacturer, and starts breaking down? Well, I suppose by then, state-of-the-art systems will be able to emulate *that* thing faster than the original. Prediction: 100 years from now, pick any random business, and dig into their computer system. You will find that at least some of their software is "legacy code" running under an emulator for some long-forgotten machine. And if you dig further, you will find that at least one such emulator is itself being emulated. Don't be too surprised if the legacy app is IBM 360 code running under an emulator written for a Wintel x86 box, and the x86 box is being emulated by... maybe a Java (non-virtual) machine? Cheerful thought for the day: someday the Wintel x86 platform will be long-forgotten. :-) My $0.02, the original hardware pushes all of my motivation buttons harder than an emulator could. Nostalgia, Revenge, Education, Preservationism, Usability, Money; only usability *might* be completely satisfied by an emulator. Of course, the emulator pushes those buttons harder than a complete void would. In an odd way, an emulator could hit the Money button better than the original hardware: although it doesn't have higher resale value, it should be cheaper to obtain. But this was about which you'd rather have, not which you were more likely to succeed in getting, right? So maybe the real thing wins on the Money button as well. Hmm. It seems the emulator would push the motivation buttons for when NOT to collect, better than the real hardware would: Cost, Space, Noise, Breakdowns (for us software geeks, those are not exactly fun), Transportation, and Spousal discord; all the things associated with having physical STUFF. Bill. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 21 14:01:14 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: [off topic] Bomb Threat. In-Reply-To: <13397599183.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > This is kinda off topic, but we've just had a bomb threat! > No joke! Someone phoned in, asked for my boss, and said they > put a bomb in the building! Why would someone bomb an ISP? > Other than my boss is an Afican-American... (Native of Nigeria). You fool! What are you still doing in the building? ;) Maybe they were referring to an e-mail bomb? Once you send it then its technically "in the building"... Ok, I'll go away now. If you get blown to bits can I have your DEC stuff? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 21 14:03:51 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: <199810211858.OAA22516@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981021140351.00f1c660@pc> At 02:58 PM 10/21/98 -0400, Bill Yakowenko wrote: >And if you dig further, you >will find that at least one such emulator is itself being emulated. >Don't be too surprised if the legacy app is IBM 360 code running >under an emulator written for a Wintel x86 box, and the x86 box >is being emulated by... maybe a Java (non-virtual) machine? This reminds me of a claim I hear in Y2K discussions, but can hardly believe: that businesses are running the same *executables* since the 1950s/60s/70s, and that they don't have the source code to fix it. Sure, they might not have the source to the OS, but their own apps? And that there's been no other reason to change or replace the programs in all these years, and Y2K is the only reason they need to do it? - John From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Oct 21 14:05:47 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: [off topic] Bomb Threat. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13397601993.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Can Sam have my DEC stuff if I get blowed to bits?] No, in that event, Pat Coefield and Jim Efaw at SSI (where my stuff is stored) have instructions to not let anyone have it, and preserve the machines for as long as they can. But if you feel like hauling it, you could ask nicely... ------- From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 21 14:08:01 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: <199810211858.OAA22516@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981021140801.00f16240@pc> At 02:58 PM 10/21/98 -0400, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > >Prediction: 100 years from now, pick any random business, and >dig into their computer system. You will find that at least >some of their software is "legacy code" running under an emulator >for some long-forgotten machine. Today's Alpha/MIPS/PPC Windows machines contain an x86 emulation in ROM, used at boot-time to jump into and init the start-up ROMs of Wintel-market add-on cards for video, networking, etc. DEC/Compaq gives away an Intel emulator called FX!32 for Alpha boxes that can run Windows x86 binaries as-is. PPC Macs have of course shipped with 680x0 emulators from the start. - John From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 21 14:14:55 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981021140351.00f1c660@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, John Foust wrote: > This reminds me of a claim I hear in Y2K discussions, but can hardly > believe: that businesses are running the same *executables* since > the 1950s/60s/70s, and that they don't have the source code to fix it. > > Sure, they might not have the source to the OS, but their own apps? > And that there's been no other reason to change or replace the > programs in all these years, and Y2K is the only reason they need to do it? Yes! John, this stuff happens all the time. 40 years is a LONG time. Plenty of stuff can get lost in 40 years. Lots of times, companies do not take appropriate measures to archive their source code. Its just one of those things that eventually gets lost to time. In the 5 years that I've been working for my current employer, I've probably "lost" the source to at least one program we use on a daily basis (or at least did before my office was downsized out of existence). Also, if it ain't broke, do go fricking with the damn thing. I've got programs in use to this day that I haven't touched since I originally coded them perhaps 5 years ago. There's no need to. It does a task that has not changed scope in that time. So, believe it or not my naive young man, people are dumb enough to lose the source code. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Oct 21 14:20:43 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: another ebay laugh Message-ID: cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=36124539 mac128k in box for $260? hmmm I have the same,except my mac has a rare documented upgrade board that basically turns it into a mac+ complete with scsi. oooh, and i have IW2 in box also. mine's worth $1000! lol From spc at armigeron.com Thu Oct 22 15:16:12 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981021140351.00f1c660@pc> from "John Foust" at Oct 21, 98 02:03:51 pm Message-ID: <199810222016.QAA07254@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 863 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/5a8ed494/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 21 14:24:36 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19981021140351.00f1c660@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981021142436.00ed5980@pc> At 12:14 PM 10/21/98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: > >So, believe it or not my naive young man, people are dumb enough to lose >the source code. Who you calling "young man"? :-) I'm 35 and learned BASIC on an ASR-33 when I was twelve, and have been supporting myself on my programmer earnings since the summer I turned 18. I certainly know the source code gets lost. I'm appalled at how much code gets written, and then is lost, which might explain the tubs of floppies and 8mm tapes that I use for decoration in my office. What I don't believe are these claims that the heart of the Y2K problem are thousands of businesses running apps as old as I am, that haven't had to change, or that can't be changed. How many serious businesses are still running the same unchanged sourceless app since 1978, much less 1968 or 1958? - John From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 21 14:36:39 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <981021153639.21a001b8@trailing-edge.com> >This reminds me of a claim I hear in Y2K discussions, but can hardly >believe: that businesses are running the same *executables* since >the 1950s/60s/70s, and that they don't have the source code to fix it. All the time. In many cases, the customer never saw the source code. (Did you get the source code to the microcontroller in your microwave when you bought it?) >Sure, they might not have the source to the OS, but their own apps? I'm intimately familiar with an example where the company selling the OS no longer has all the source code to it. (And, in one specific case, they can't recompile a tool distributed with the OS because they've even lost the binaries of the compiler.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Oct 21 14:48:32 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: [off topic] Bomb Threat. In-Reply-To: <13397599183.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > This is kinda off topic, but we've just had a bomb threat! > No joke! Someone phoned in, asked for my boss, and said they > put a bomb in the building! Why would someone bomb an ISP? > Other than my boss is an Afican-American... (Native of Nigeria). > ------- A sad commentary on a form of 'techno-terrorism' that is likely to become more prevalent as dependency on the 'net' increases. The commercialization of the Internet has inadvertantly weakened one of its major design points that was considered to be so critical when the first ARPA designs were worked out. That being redundancy and lack of centralization. Before the major commercial 'backbones' were in place, (set the 'wayback' machine; Sherman) most systems had multiple shared dial-up connections to numerous other hosts with which they regularly shared information (email, news, files, etc.) If a network connection went down, (if you even had one) or a given host was offline, traffic was just routed thru another system that indicated connectivity to the system (or systems) that the traffic was destined for. (everyone remember the periodic routing 'maps' that went around?) So... unless you lost ALL of your phone lines for an extended period, you pretty much always had (some level of) connectivity. Today, on the other hand (generalization warning!) how many major systems maintain dial-up inter-system capability even as a backup? The major infrastructures have tended to centralize around the commercial 'backbones' and carriers which make them succeptable to interruptions of service when a single connection fails! (Sure... your web servers are fed by dual 'T3s', but both from a single carrier thru a single POP?!?) So much in money and resources is often committed to create/maintain a major (high bandwidth) link onto the net, (useful) redundancy is frequently sacrificed. One attack on a major carrier POP (ok, definition time: POP = Point Of Presence) could easily disrupt Internet traffic for a LOT of people and corporations. Take out a couple of the major authoritative DNS servers, and watch the world (generalization) start crashing down! Or sadly, target one ISP that is suspected of being a major provider? It happens... more often than you might ever imagine... -jim (I speak for no one but myself... YMMV) --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 21 14:48:59 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981021142436.00ed5980@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, John Foust wrote: > What I don't believe are these claims that the heart of the Y2K > problem are thousands of businesses running apps as old as I am, > that haven't had to change, or that can't be changed. How many > serious businesses are still running the same unchanged sourceless > app since 1978, much less 1968 or 1958? Amazing, isn't it? I'm sure those same sentiments were expressed back in 1978, 1968 and 1958 by the same incredulous programmers who supposed that perhaps their programs would still be crunching away in 1998. I don't think the software I've written thats been in the field since 1993 will still be there in 2003, but there's no reason it can't be, and I would be thrilled (and amazed) to find out that it was. I'm sure the guys who wrote Sage Professional Editor back in the late 80s would be amazed that I still use it for all my code writing (in DOS windows under Win95) and swear by it (best damn text editor ever developed...yeah, you heard me!) SO anyway, believe it. Code from the 50s and 60s still churns away, calculating the taxes you owe, the fines you are assessed and the bank statements you received. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From william at ans.net Wed Oct 21 14:57:29 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: [off topic] Bomb Threat. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [networks crashing] > It happens... more often than you might ever imagine... I didn't do it. But I have stories only told after a few beers... William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Wed Oct 21 15:10:19 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: [off topic] Bomb Threat. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The major infrastructures have tended to centralize around the commercial > 'backbones' and carriers which make them succeptable to interruptions of > service when a single connection fails! (Sure... your web servers are fed > by dual 'T3s', but both from a single carrier thru a single POP?!?) You are quite correct, but let me expand on it. Most customers do get only one circuit to a backbone, and yes the things go down. T1 or T3, or whatever you have, 99.9 percent of the time it goes thru _one_ CSU and/or _one_ router. If the CSU dies or the router starts flapping, the customer gets very upset. It is possible to have a customer home multiple circuits into multiple routers (it is a bit difficult, and not terribly efficient), but it just ain't done that way. The problem lies within the confines of the POPs. On a greater scale, just as the ARPA people envisioned, the backbones are very bulletproof. If a circuit goes down between two POPs (largish ones, anyway), there will always be another circuit to take the load. Sure, it may go thru an extra transit router or two, and may saturate them, but the net will still be up. Thank goodness that most of the equipment deployed to make the Internet is built like tanks. William Donzelli william@ans.net From spc at armigeron.com Thu Oct 22 16:02:39 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: [off topic] Bomb Threat../pub/users/markg/util/xkey.c.Z In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Oct 21, 98 12:48:32 pm Message-ID: <199810222102.RAA07550@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 653 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/c6d170d7/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Wed Oct 21 15:21:40 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: [off topic] Bomb Threat../pub/users/markg/util/xkey.c.Z In-Reply-To: <199810222102.RAA07550@armigeron.com> Message-ID: > You can effectively cut off the US (and possibly North America) by just > taking out two locations: a parking garage in Virginia and a similar > location in California. 2/3 of all global Internet traffic goes through MAE-EAST > and MAE-WEST. Yes traffic goes thru these now, in an "unbombed" state, but there are plenty of smaller interconnects all over the place that could take over. Anyway, I think you could drop all the bombs you want on MAE-E. Same with Sprint-NAP - built like something out of "The Guns of Navarone". William Donzelli william@ans.net From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Oct 21 15:35:36 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: FS: DEC Documentation (RM80 Disk Drives) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199810212029.NAA12971@mxu4.u.washington.edu> I've got a spare, nearly complete set, of docs for the DEC RM80 disk drive available. Three books: 1) RM80 Disk Drive User's Guide P/N EK-ORM80-UG-003 2) RM80 Illustrated Parse Breakdown P/N EK-ORM80-IP-001 3) RM80 Disk Drive Service Manual P/N EK-ORM80-SV-001 What I don't have is a copy of the RM80 engineering print set. I'm asking $30/obo for all three of them. I'll pay shipping in the US. For those who don't have one the RM80 is a 120MB MASSBUSS based disk for PDP-10s or PDP-11s. One of these and an 11/45 and you've got the "original" classic UNIX system. (Well classic from the sense that there were a lot of them configured that way) --Chuck McManis (cmcmanis-at-mcmanis.com) From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Oct 21 15:36:15 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: net disruptions through terrorist machinations Message-ID: <199810212036.OAA22337@calico.litterbox.com> Gang, the tcp-ip protocol was designed to survive a nuclear war. Assuming there is ANY connectivity going around a hypothetically disrupted/destroyed major network hub, the packets should find it. Of course that link won't handle the bandwidth, but in theory the net would still *work*. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 21 15:12:18 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19981021142436.00ed5980@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981021151218.00edbe00@pc> At 12:48 PM 10/21/98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: > >I'm sure the guys who wrote Sage Professional Editor back in the late 80s >would be amazed that I still use it for all my code writing (in DOS I'm still using Brief now and then, but it's the 1989 build. The oldest DOS tool I found on my system today was from 1984. >So anyway, believe it. Code from the 50s and 60s still churns away, >calculating the taxes you owe, the fines you are assessed and the bank >statements you received. I'm still skeptical. I'd love to hear more first-hand reports of the oldest code still running as-is. Come on, code from the 50s that's never been replaced? Running on what? Under an emulator? - John From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Oct 21 16:39:02 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: net disruptions through terrorist machinations Message-ID: <19981021213904.10422.qmail@hotmail.com> That's the idea behind any distributed network. If you drove a pole into your head, you will cause damage, but you would still be able to live, unless you hit one of a number of critical 'network hubs' >Gang, the tcp-ip protocol was designed to survive a nuclear war. Assuming >there is ANY connectivity going around a hypothetically disrupted/destroyed >major network hub, the packets should find it. Of course that link won't >handle the bandwidth, but in theory the net would still *work*. >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Oct 21 16:43:22 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <19981021214324.24083.qmail@hotmail.com> Another important factor is newer software that uses code from ancient programs. Examples of this are various algorithms (that could be y2K sensitive). Also, I'm pretty sure that there are at least a couple of dozen lines that are exactly the same in MS-DOS 7 and in Q-DOS. Same goes for other operating systems and software. >> that haven't had to change, or that can't be changed. How many >> serious businesses are still running the same unchanged sourceless >> app since 1978, much less 1968 or 1958? > >Amazing, isn't it? I'm sure those same sentiments were expressed back in >1978, 1968 and 1958 by the same incredulous programmers who supposed that >perhaps their programs would still be crunching away in 1998. > >I don't think the software I've written thats been in the field since 1993 >will still be there in 2003, but there's no reason it can't be, and I >would be thrilled (and amazed) to find out that it was. > >I'm sure the guys who wrote Sage Professional Editor back in the late 80s >would be amazed that I still use it for all my code writing (in DOS >windows under Win95) and swear by it (best damn text editor ever >developed...yeah, you heard me!) > >SO anyway, believe it. Code from the 50s and 60s still churns away, >calculating the taxes you owe, the fines you are assessed and the bank >statements you received. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Oct 21 16:47:54 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: [off topic] Bomb Threat. Message-ID: <19981021214756.27618.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, I guess we see this trend of making things less redundant and less faithful to theory, more faithful to shaving off 1/4 of a cent universally. We see bomb threats pretty universally too, and not necessarily for political reasons. Are you sure it wasn't just a kid whose computer crashed again? > >> This is kinda off topic, but we've just had a bomb threat! >> No joke! Someone phoned in, asked for my boss, and said they >> put a bomb in the building! Why would someone bomb an ISP? >> Other than my boss is an Afican-American... (Native of Nigeria). >> ------- > >A sad commentary on a form of 'techno-terrorism' that is likely to become >more prevalent as dependency on the 'net' increases. > >The commercialization of the Internet has inadvertantly weakened one of >its major design points that was considered to be so critical when the >first ARPA designs were worked out. That being redundancy and lack of >centralization. > >Before the major commercial 'backbones' were in place, (set the 'wayback' >machine; Sherman) most systems had multiple shared dial-up connections to >numerous other hosts with which they regularly shared information (email, >news, files, etc.) > >If a network connection went down, (if you even had one) or a given host >was offline, traffic was just routed thru another system that indicated >connectivity to the system (or systems) that the traffic was destined for. >(everyone remember the periodic routing 'maps' that went around?) > >So... unless you lost ALL of your phone lines for an extended period, you >pretty much always had (some level of) connectivity. > >Today, on the other hand (generalization warning!) how many major systems >maintain dial-up inter-system capability even as a backup? > >The major infrastructures have tended to centralize around the commercial >'backbones' and carriers which make them succeptable to interruptions of >service when a single connection fails! (Sure... your web servers are fed >by dual 'T3s', but both from a single carrier thru a single POP?!?) > >So much in money and resources is often committed to create/maintain a >major (high bandwidth) link onto the net, (useful) redundancy is >frequently sacrificed. > >One attack on a major carrier POP (ok, definition time: POP = Point >Of Presence) could easily disrupt Internet traffic for a LOT of people and >corporations. > >Take out a couple of the major authoritative DNS servers, and watch the >world (generalization) start crashing down! > >Or sadly, target one ISP that is suspected of being a major provider? > >It happens... more often than you might ever imagine... > >-jim >(I speak for no one but myself... YMMV) >--- >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Oct 21 17:23:20 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: [off topic] Bomb Threat. In-Reply-To: <19981021214756.27618.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <13397637953.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Is it just a kid?] No, the secretary that answered the phone said it was a grown man's voice, and they asked specifically for my boss. Your normal prank-caller wouldn't do that... ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 21 13:27:48 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <026401bdfc87$3a04a790$a60b0b0b@p166> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Oct 20, 98 08:09:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 808 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981021/a800dbf8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 21 13:31:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 20, 98 05:59:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981021/82f9c94e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 21 13:16:55 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 I/O ports? In-Reply-To: <362C8A13.42433DEA@sprintmail.com> from "Phil Clayton" at Oct 20, 98 09:03:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1069 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981021/9c380252/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 21 13:38:42 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Oct 20, 98 09:29:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 423 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981021/5b35f544/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 21 13:43:56 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:33 2005 Subject: whistling mac plus In-Reply-To: from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Oct 20, 98 10:50:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1815 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981021/bd104f2f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 21 14:15:28 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: How is a microprocessor made? In-Reply-To: <199810220324.XAA05431@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Oct 21, 98 11:24:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1953 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981021/4021edf8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 21 13:56:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: whistling mac plus In-Reply-To: <10074852@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> from "Marion Bates" at Oct 20, 98 11:07:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 840 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981021/77209993/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Thu Oct 22 18:29:58 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: How is a microprocessor made?./pub/users/markg/csrc/ChipSet.zip In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 21, 98 08:15:28 pm Message-ID: <199810222329.TAA08266@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1451 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/0c69ad5e/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 21 17:58:51 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <199810212258.AA16867@world.std.com> < I'm still skeptical. I'd love to hear more first-hand reports of < the oldest code still running as-is. Come on, code from the 50s < that's never been replaced? Running on what? Under an emulator? Ok, howabout a Brigeport milling machine with the PDP-8E it was purchased with in 1975, still running the same code. code from the 50s would likely be fortran or Cobol and yes it would be portable enough to go from one machine to the next with only a compile (no edits). Code from the late 60s era machine could still be running oth either native hardware or later machines that had to support old code. What is missed is code is expensive and hard to maintain so if you have something good and known you run it for a long time. I'm still running 8080/z80 code from the late 70s early 80s! If it aint broke don't fix it and the system that it was genned on is also 20 years old last March. So it's very easy for old code to linger. Allison From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Oct 21 18:14:06 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: OT: Modern college educations In-Reply-To: <199810222329.TAA08266@armigeron.com> References: Message-ID: <199810212307.QAA27896@mxu3.u.washington.edu> A lot of discussion here on college educations, my 0.02. 1) I don't expect New College Grads (NCG's) to know a lot, I expect them to know how to find something out that they don't know and how to power through bull s**t type work. I also expect them to know the basic theory behind their area of expertise. Stanford actually added a new degree program that is a mix of 'digital mode EE' + 'basic CS' that trys to address the mismatch normally found (see below). 2) I don't expect CS majors to be taught assembly, per se. In case you missed it, people who program in assembly are EEs these days, *not* CS majors. CS majors write data bases and object oriented compilers, they don't "need" to know assembly because the computer they use never uses it. People who started experimenting with making transistors glow in high-school come out of college much more valuable than those who decided that engineering was a "good major" their sophmore year. A fun exercise (in a nerdly sort of way) is to presume you've been dumped onto some raw continent with nothing but your brains and underpants, now build a PDP-8. (You can assume that you will have food and shelter.) One of the things that struck me about a 'dead' PC I was attempting to fix was that the BIOS flash had been zorched and a) Not only was their no way to recover the bios but b) the chipset used was both non-standard and made by a now non-existent company who left behind no records. Talk about unfixable! When my PDP-8 breaks I can always go back to first principles and get it working again, when the engine computer on your car breaks, your out of luck. Another example, the RM-80 docs I've got, everything you need to talk to the drive at a register level! Documentation for a 3DFx based Voodoo Graphics card? "I'm sorry Mr. McManis but that information is only available under NDA to qualified customers who can prove a market of at least 1K units/month." Talk about self defeating! Now if I were James Burke I would have ended up back at college grads, oh well. --Chuck McManis From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Wed Oct 21 18:51:50 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: ARCnet... In-Reply-To: References: <362C8A13.42433DEA@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981021185150.00a6be50@texas.net> Help! I am running an ARCnet (and I like it!). I am trying to find: 1) Anyone have any information as to the eletectrical characteristics of ARCnet signals??? (I want to bread board up a PCI NIC). 2) Anyone have any old ARCnet cards they wanna get rid of??? Thanks, Arfon From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Wed Oct 21 18:57:25 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: References: <362C8A13.42433DEA@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981021185725.00a73590@texas.net> Okay, here's another hair-brained project that I am working on..... I am trying to basically build a 64Bit Z-80 on a board. What I am looking for is: Anyone know of any chips that are EXTREMELY simple micro-controllers but, work at EXTREMELY high clock rates??? I wanna put a few on a board with some memory and made a 64-bit Z-80. I'd like the processor to operate at 300Mcyc (or faster) clock speeds so, I figure I need micro-controllers that operate at about 900 Mcyc to do the work. Any ideas???? Thanks, Arfon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 21 18:21:22 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: OT: Modern college educations In-Reply-To: <199810212307.QAA27896@mxu3.u.washington.edu> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 21, 98 04:14:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3913 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/e596c148/attachment.ksh From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Oct 21 18:36:07 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors Message-ID: <199810220000.UAA16519@gate.usaor.net> Well, comparing myself to _most_ of the keds in my school, I'd say 'odd' is the word. In my school, they have a "freak day", where everyon dresses up in screwy clothes, and purple hair and everything. Even the teachers do it. -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Brett > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors > Date: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 11:38 PM > > > On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > > I think the only reason that I know this is that I collect antique radios. > > maybe I'm just odd... > > Whoa - change that view - You are not odd - just exceptional 8-) > > BC > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 21 18:57:55 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981021140351.00f1c660@pc> (message from John Foust on Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:03:51 -0500) References: <3.0.1.32.19981021140351.00f1c660@pc> Message-ID: <19981021235755.2083.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Foust wrote: > This reminds me of a claim I hear in Y2K discussions, but can hardly > believe: that businesses are running the same *executables* since > the 1950s/60s/70s, and that they don't have the source code to fix it. > Sure, they might not have the source to the OS, but their own apps? It's true. Haven't you ever worked for a big business? They lose all kinds of stuff. > And that there's been no other reason to change or replace the > programs in all these years, That's exactly how the source gets lost. If they had to modify the source every week, they wouldn't lose it. Let's see, is the source for our payroll system that was written in 1962 on 7-track tape or punched cards? Maybe if we're lucky it might be on Hypertape or a 2311. Although the media problems are relatively minor when you look at the big picture. The companies would tend to lose the source code even if it was on modern media. Even the vendors tend not to have source code for old software. If a company that is in the *business* of writing software loses their old stuff, what do you think happens with companies for whom software was written just as a means to an end? Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 21 19:13:12 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: net disruptions through terrorist machinations In-Reply-To: <199810212036.OAA22337@calico.litterbox.com> (message from Jim Strickland on Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:36:15 -0600 (MDT)) References: <199810212036.OAA22337@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <19981022001312.2187.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jim Strickland wrote: > Gang, the tcp-ip protocol was designed to survive a nuclear war. Packet-switching was invented by Paul Baran to provide a communications system that could survive a nuclear war. IP is in principle is capable of being used to implement such a system. However, there is nothing in IP that guarantees that an IP-based internet will in fact be that robust. The Internet as actually deployed is nowhere near sufficiently robust to survive a nuclear war, or even a large-scale conventional war. While there may not be single failure points that would be catastrophic, it would not take the destruction of a very large percentage of backbone routers to take it down. By "down", I don't mean a situation where no nodes can communicate with other nodes. I mean a situation contrary to the normal experience in which any node has a high likelyhood of being able to communicate with any other node. The Internet isn't useful if you can only communicate with an unpredictable subset of it. > Assuming > there is ANY connectivity going around a hypothetically disrupted/destroyed > major network hub, the packets should find it. If all of the connections truly were routing peers, that would be true. But many of them aren't. If a single major peering point (or a few of them) were destroyed, the net would still function, and within days would be back to business as usual. If 20% of the peering points were destroyed, the net wouldn't be usable (in the normal sense) for quite a while, possibly weeks. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Oct 21 20:22:06 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: [off topic] Bomb Threat. In-Reply-To: <13397599183.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981021202206.3cffbd08@intellistar.net> At 11:50 AM 10/21/98 -0700, you wrote: > >This is kinda off topic, but we've just had a bomb threat! >No joke! Someone phoned in, asked for my boss, and said they >put a bomb in the building! Why would someone bomb an ISP? A lot of times because someone that works there wants the afternoon off. Or someone that just wants to harass the company, for any reason or none at all. Joe >------- > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 21 19:22:44 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810220022.AA21436@world.std.com> < Okay, here's another hair-brained project that I am working on..... < < I am trying to basically build a 64Bit Z-80 on a board. What I am < looking for is: Anyone know of any chips that are EXTREMELY simple < micro-controllers but, work at EXTREMELY high clock rates??? I wanna p < a few on a board with some memory and made a 64-bit Z-80. I'd like th < processor to operate at 300Mcyc (or faster) clock speeds so, I figure I < need micro-controllers that operate at about 900 Mcyc to do the work. < < Any ideas???? Wait till April first for this. I don't think you were listening when we were discussing propagation delays. To deal with 300-900Mhz clock your talking 4-6layer etch and some really fast logic. The .33nS memory will be tough to buy. Be prepared to dump a few DecaKilobucks into the attempt after all you'll need a really fast logic analyser and O'scope to see what you missed. If you want a 32 bit z80 get a z380, it runs native z80 code, until you switch modes then compatability works but it has a lot of gotchas. If your doing a z80 stretch, you better think about how to access memory or really alter the z80 fetch timing. Basic Z80 timing for say 20ns memory would limit you to some 40-50Mhz... it would be a 5-10 MIPS machine though. If you superpipline it and get it down to 1-2 clocks per cycle you can double that. In any case there is no way to logically stretch a z80 without running the risk of making it software incompatable at some point. I've seriously looked at it, still have the 2901s I was thinking of using. I have z80/10mhz parts however and the 2901s would barely do that. FYI: z80S180s can be had into the 30+ mhz range. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 21 19:20:17 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981021185725.00a73590@texas.net> (message from Arfon Gryffydd on Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:57:25 -0500) References: <362C8A13.42433DEA@sprintmail.com> <3.0.3.32.19981021185725.00a73590@texas.net> Message-ID: <19981022002017.2230.qmail@brouhaha.com> Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > I figure I > need micro-controllers that operate at about 900 Mcyc to do the work. AFAIK, there are no commercially microprocessors of any sort that are rated for operation above 700 MHz. If you're thinking of 8-bit microcontrollers, one of the fastest is the Scenix SX. It is currently available rated for 50 MHz operations, for a 20 ns instruction cycle. Not bad for under $5. http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/scenix/ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 21 19:28:30 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <981021202830.21a001f5@trailing-edge.com> > I am trying to basically build a 64Bit Z-80 on a board. What I am >looking for is: Anyone know of any chips that are EXTREMELY simple >micro-controllers but, work at EXTREMELY high clock rates??? I wanna put >a few on a board with some memory and made a 64-bit Z-80. I'd like the >processor to operate at 300Mcyc (or faster) clock speeds so, I figure I >need micro-controllers that operate at about 900 Mcyc to do the work. You're pretty much looking at ECL here, I think. Some of the new gate arrays will clock at 100 MHz, but that's still nowhere need 900 MHz. Tim. From gram at cnct.com Wed Oct 21 19:47:59 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors References: <199810220000.UAA16519@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <362E80BF.21F6798A@cnct.com> Jason Willgruber wrote: > > Well, comparing myself to _most_ of the keds in my school, I'd say 'odd' is > the word. In my school, they have a "freak day", where everyon dresses up > in screwy clothes, and purple hair and everything. Even the teachers do > it. Hmm. Most of the high schools I pass these days seem to have "Freak Day" defined as any day with a name ending in "y". Then again, I'm conservatively maintaining the long hair and beard that were the standard back when I was growing up. (At least unlike a lot of my classmates, I still have a full head of hair to keep long, even if there is getting to be a bit of silver mixed in). Of course, since that used to be the dress code for serious Unix hackers and system administrators, I have another excuse. -- Ward Griffiths When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Oct 21 19:53:21 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sethm@loomcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: How is a microprocessor made? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 21, 98 08:15:28 pm Message-ID: <199810220053.RAA02426@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1164 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981021/b27eec70/attachment.ksh From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Oct 21 19:47:24 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: WTB: NEEDED: Tandy/Bondwell parts! Message-ID: <199810220055.UAA28431@gate.usaor.net> Wanted: LCD for a Bondwell B310 laptop. Half of the LCD in mine quit working. it is a non-backlit LCD, but I'd like to know if there is a backlit version available for this computer (this is the CGA, not the VGA version). There's the specs: SHARP LM64032 NEEDED: HD controller for a Tandy 1400HD laptop. ANY help is appreciated, as I need to rescue data from the 1400, and I'd like to get the Bondwell working. As always, ThAnX in advance, -Jason PS>> The Tandy is within the 10-yr limit. the Bondwell has about 6 months to go... From fauradon at pclink.com Wed Oct 21 20:02:36 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: HP85 - need info Message-ID: <000401bdfd57$a90e2320$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Ok it should be there now. Under tech info Let me know if it is useable or if I'd be better off with the original scans at 120K a piece. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: fauradon@pclink.com Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 4:59 PM Subject: Re: HP85 - need info > >>Oh and by the way I have the manual sitting on my desk right now >>(actually on top of my scanner). If you're still interested I could scan >>the 7 pages of the glossary and BASIC syntax guidelines and place it on >>my wed site tonight (I wanted to do that for several machines anyway). >>There is also 5 pages of error codes right after that (If I have time >>I'll set it up too) > >That would be great... thanks. > > Megan > From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Oct 21 20:12:40 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: How is a microprocessor made? In-Reply-To: <199810220053.RAA02426@loomcom.com> from "sethm@loomcom.com" at Oct 21, 98 05:53:21 pm Message-ID: <199810220112.SAA11528@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 551 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981021/ae429776/attachment.ksh From dburrows at netpath.net Wed Oct 21 20:09:55 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors Message-ID: <02af01bdfd5b$033ca800$a60b0b0b@p166> > >When I was a lad, we used to use a fine jet of helium and spray that >round any possible leaks. It shows up very clearly on a mass spectromter. >Some of them even had a setting on one of the controls to look for the >appropriate peak (4, I guess). > Virtually all the instruments I am involved with have a GC for sample introduction so there is helium present all the time. Do they ever think of using the tank of argon sitting off to the side? Much less know the mass of argon? (40) Do they ever think of using any of the gallons of methanol present in all the labs? or even know offhand what mass to look for. (31 there is to much 32 from the leak - O2) The heliun/argon works on the source region but on the analyzer region you have to resort to numerous other methods - there is nothing to ionize the gas. Instead you have to use solvents and look for the pressure burst when the liquid volitizes in the vac. I have had to even pressurize the system with heliun and use a gas leak detector to find some. - A bad weld on a diffusion pump is the worst to find. At hi vac. it is extremly hot when it is cold the pump oil seals the leak. What makes it even more fun is I have no diploma other than high school. I have taught numerous classes in mass spec to masters and phd's on operation, maintenance and troubleshooting. It gets really funny when they find out I have had only 1 university course - sociology. Dan From dburrows at netpath.net Wed Oct 21 20:12:52 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: OT: Modern college educations Message-ID: <02b001bdfd5b$043bc880$a60b0b0b@p166> > >More people should insist on proper documentation. On a couple of >occasions I've returned a device to the shop that sold it under the UK >sale of goods act. The reason? It was not fit for the purpose that I >bought it for because important documentation (register maps, connector >pinouts, etc) was not available. Alas I doubt if the company ever >realised or cared.. I sure wish they had those laws here in the US. The only to get documentation is to make it a line item on the purchase order and hold back payment until the PO is complete. Dan From dburrows at netpath.net Wed Oct 21 20:22:41 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <02b101bdfd5b$06976bc0$a60b0b0b@p166> >< I'm still skeptical. I'd love to hear more first-hand reports of >< the oldest code still running as-is. Come on, code from the 50s >< that's never been replaced? Running on what? Under an emulator? > >Ok, howabout a Brigeport milling machine with the PDP-8E it was purchased >with in 1975, still running the same code. How about a major circuit board mfg that has 20+ PDP11/04 and 11/24's that could not even tell me what operating system they were running. I was and still am suppling them with parts to keep the systems running. It took me a while when I went on a service call there to figure it out. DOS11 beleive it or not. With RL01 and RL02's some of the systems only have paper tape. They are using the systems to control routers, drills and test sets. They also wanted to know about possibility of Y2K compliance - no sources, DOS11 had no RL drivers so the must have written their own. Dan From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Oct 21 20:37:42 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: OT: Modern college educations Message-ID: <19981022013743.23624.qmail@hotmail.com> > >> >> A lot of discussion here on college educations, my 0.02. >> >> 1) I don't expect New College Grads (NCG's) to know a lot, I expect them to Don't. They're here to make the college money, not to get ahead in the real world. This is already starting to bite back, and will get worse. >I would also expect them to have some practical knowledge as well. And >how to make order-of-magnitude calculations/reliable guesses for results in >their subject. > >Please note that the 2 people I was moaning about earlier (one wanted a >362.83 Ohm resistor for his LED, the other couldn't grasp '5V across >4.7kOhms is a little more than a milliamp') were EEs. It's reasonable >that a chemistry student, or a classics student, or something like that >wouldn't have a clue about resistor values, but for an EE? It worries me. >It wories me a lot. But, why? Most of them will be getting a job in which they either follow flowcharts, or in which they figure out the prettiest way to put U1-49 on a PCB and attach a 6-pin connector to pins 1-6 of each U. If the world is unlucky enough to have one at a real circuit without a manual, the few comptetent engineers will find a way to make this guy's function unnecessary. At the end, of course, this raises unemployment and decreases skill. It's clear a crisis will occur <100y >Oh, IMHO all CS students should have some idea as to what the 'computer' >they are writing programs for actually is. And that means having some >idea of digital electronics and assembly language. I find using tools >that you don't fully understand is a darn good way to produce poor code >(or whatever). The thing that annoys me terribly is that people think they can do 'interesting' things on a computer, like web pages, and graphics, and so forth. IMHO, an artist should play with Photoshop and POVRay, while a person interested in computers should learn assembly. It's not mutually exclusive, of course, but I think there are too many people who could contribute a lot to technical stuff, while they sit lazily clicking away at the canvas. >Of course. Things you've taught yourself are rarely forgotten. If you >want to understand something then you will. Unlike the student who learnt >the book to pass the exam and has no real clue as to what it means. > Here's something I read in a ham radio book: "There are two ways to prepare for any test. One way is to study to learn the material, and the other is to pass the test. I suggest you study to pass the test" He was, of course, talking about the Amateur Radio certification test. Clearly, this book was made not for people interested in radio, but those who want to send messages about their private life all over the universe. > >> One of the things that struck me about a 'dead' PC I was attempting to fix >> was that the BIOS flash had been zorched and a) Not only was their no way >> to recover the bios but b) the chipset used was both non-standard and made >> by a now non-existent company who left behind no records. Talk about > >Thankfully the BIOS on this PC is in OTP EPROMs, and I have the official >source listings anyway. Ditto schematics of everything but the hard disk. >This machine can be repaired. > >> unfixable! When my PDP-8 breaks I can always go back to first principles > >Exactly. I've fixed my 8/e, 11s and PERQs to component level when necessary. > >> and get it working again, when the engine computer on your car breaks, your With a car, it's not that bad. You could order replacement chips sometimes, or you could try bypassing the messed-up function. >Why do you think that when I get a car I am _not_ having any electronics >anywhere enar the engine :-). Mechanical stuff I can understand and >repair. Electronics I can understand, but there's no way I could make a >custom chip at home. > >> Graphics card? "I'm sorry Mr. McManis but that information is only >> available under NDA to qualified customers who can prove a market of at >> least 1K units/month." Talk about self defeating! > >More people should insist on proper documentation. On a couple of >occasions I've returned a device to the shop that sold it under the UK >sale of goods act. The reason? It was not fit for the purpose that I >bought it for because important documentation (register maps, connector >pinouts, etc) was not available. Alas I doubt if the company ever >realised or cared... The thing is, the documents often don't exist. My father once worked for a HV PSU manufacturing firm, where the blueprints were just barely enough to manufacture the device. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From marvin at rain.org Wed Oct 21 21:16:16 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: OT: Modern college educations References: <19981022013743.23624.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <362E9570.7B7F2216@rain.org> Max Eskin wrote: > > Here's something I read in a ham radio book: "There are two ways to > prepare for any test. One way is to study to learn the material, and > the other is to pass the test. I suggest you study to pass the test" > He was, of course, talking about the Amateur Radio certification test. > Clearly, this book was made not for people interested in radio, but > those who want to send messages about their private life all over the > universe. This is not quite as clear as you might believe. Some people believe that passing a test shows proficiency (IMNSHO, a totally false belief.) This whole discussion has been showing that *doing* is the way to learn. Passing the Amateur Radio license test is merely a means of being able to *do* legally, and then the real education will begin. Also, your statement about who the book was oriented for is totally unwarrented; you have the people who live on IRC confused with hams. Marvin, KE6HTS From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 21 21:28:59 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: [off topic] Bomb Threat. In-Reply-To: <13397599183.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: >This is kinda off topic, but we've just had a bomb threat! >No joke! Someone phoned in, asked for my boss, and said they >put a bomb in the building! Why would someone bomb an ISP? >Other than my boss is an Afican-American... (Native of Nigeria). >------- For your sake I hope you didn't answer the phone. When I was in the Navy I made the mistake of answering the phone. Next thing I knew I was halfway across the base half out of uniform, grilled, and then left to find my own way back to the ship. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Oct 21 21:51:21 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: [off topic] Bomb Threat. In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 21, 98 07:28:59 pm Message-ID: <199810220251.TAA05998@saul9.u.washington.edu> > For your sake I hope you didn't answer the phone. When I was in the Navy I > made the mistake of answering the phone. Next thing I knew I was halfway > across the base half out of uniform, grilled, and then left to find my own > way back to the ship. I don't get it. Am I confused or is this a silly joke? If you don't answer the phone then you don't know what the caller wants. (OK, you could have Caller ID, but a random number -- which may be a pay phone -- doesn't automatically mean "bomb threat".) -- Derek From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 21 22:16:56 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <199810220316.AA16808@world.std.com> < John Foust wrote: < > This reminds me of a claim I hear in Y2K discussions, but can hardly < > believe: that businesses are running the same *executables* since < > the 1950s/60s/70s, and that they don't have the source code to fix it. < > Sure, they might not have the source to the OS, but their own apps? Actually this is more common that you'd think. Many cases the company didn't write the code, they contracted for it or it's a canned application. In most of those cases they never had the source! Then the people that had the source go out of business and the code is effectively lost. I worked for a company that had to sue to get the source for an app they used for some 5 years so they could fix a bug! The bug was that RSTS-11 upgrade cased the app to crash. They needed the upgrade to keep the hardware and OS service contract alive on an 11/34 that ran the place. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 21 23:00:56 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: [way off topic] (was Re: [off topic] Bomb Threat.) In-Reply-To: <199810220251.TAA05998@saul9.u.washington.edu> (dpeschel@u.washington.edu) References: <199810220251.TAA05998@saul9.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19981022040056.3394.qmail@brouhaha.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > For your sake I hope you didn't answer the phone. When I was in the Navy I > made the mistake of answering the phone. Next thing I knew I was halfway > across the base half out of uniform, grilled, and then left to find my own > way back to the ship. Derek Peschel replied: > I don't get it. Am I confused or is this a silly joke? > > If you don't answer the phone then you don't know what the caller wants. > (OK, you could have Caller ID, but a random number -- which may be a pay > phone -- doesn't automatically mean "bomb threat".) The point wasn't that you shouldn't answer the phone if it's a bomb threat. The point was that you're unfortunate if you happen to be the poor slob that *does* answer the phone when it happens to be a bomb threat, because you can expect quite a grilling by the police/military/whoever. From marvin at rain.org Thu Oct 22 00:22:35 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Antique Hollerith Counter References: <199810222329.TAA08266@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <362EC11B.6F3B187B@rain.org> Saw this on ebay and thought someone here might be interested. The current price is $152.50 with 12 hours left on the auction. It ends at 11:03 Pacific time tomorrow (Thursday.) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=35976597 From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Thu Oct 22 00:41:07 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: [way off topic] (was Re: [off topic] Bomb Threat.) In-Reply-To: <19981022040056.3394.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 22, 98 04:00:56 am Message-ID: <199810220541.WAA20210@saul7.u.washington.edu> > The point wasn't that you shouldn't answer the phone if it's a bomb threat. > > The point was that you're unfortunate if you happen to be the poor slob that > *does* answer the phone when it happens to be a bomb threat, because you > can expect quite a grilling by the police/military/whoever. Oh. That makes a lot more sense. I don't know if "made the mistake of answering the phone" (which is what Zane said) is really the right phrase, though. -- Derek From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 22 05:30:15 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: another ebay laugh Message-ID: <199810220910.LAA13198@marina.fth.sbs.de> > mac128k in box for $260? hmmm > I have the same,except my mac has a rare documented upgrade board that > basically turns it into a mac+ complete with scsi. oooh, and i have IW2 in box > also. mine's worth $1000! lol I was in, but the price sored to a laughter ... To many rich jerks out there. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Oct 22 05:34:39 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: ARCnet... References: <362C8A13.42433DEA@sprintmail.com> <3.0.3.32.19981021185150.00a6be50@texas.net> Message-ID: <362F0A3E.A184122D@bigfoot.com> I may have a couple ISA 8 and/or16 bit ARCnet cards around cheap, or trade. I have to look Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Help! > > I am running an ARCnet (and I like it!). I am trying to find: > > 1) Anyone have any information as to the eletectrical characteristics of > ARCnet signals??? (I want to bread board up a PCI NIC). > > 2) Anyone have any old ARCnet cards they wanna get rid of??? > > Thanks, > > Arfon From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 22 07:04:32 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810221045.MAA28486@marina.fth.sbs.de> > < I am trying to basically build a 64Bit Z-80 on a board. What I am > < looking for is: Anyone know of any chips that are EXTREMELY simple > < micro-controllers but, work at EXTREMELY high clock rates??? I wanna p > < a few on a board with some memory and made a 64-bit Z-80. I'd like th > < processor to operate at 300Mcyc (or faster) clock speeds so, I figure I > < need micro-controllers that operate at about 900 Mcyc to do the work. > Wait till April first for this. > I don't think you were listening when we were discussing propagation > delays. To deal with 300-900Mhz clock your talking 4-6layer etch and > some really fast logic. The .33nS memory will be tough to buy. Be > prepared to dump a few DecaKilobucks into the attempt after all you'll > need a really fast logic analyser and O'scope to see what you missed. Gee Allison you are talking like an engeneer - destroying a brilliant vision just by facts :) > If you want a 32 bit z80 get a z380, it runs native z80 code, until you > switch modes then compatability works but it has a lot of gotchas. Net thing, but just 18 and 20 MHz types availabe - running as Z80 a 33 MHz Z180 might be faster (And never forget: you can't use R any longer as random number generator :). > If your doing a z80 stretch, you better think about how to access memory > or really alter the z80 fetch timing. Basic Z80 timing for say 20ns > memory would limit you to some 40-50Mhz... it would be a 5-10 MIPS machine > though. If you superpipline it and get it down to 1-2 clocks per cycle > you can double that. THe Z180 is already down to 3 cycle/instruction, and the z380 is down to 2 cycle/instr. But since the maximum clock rate of the 180 is more than 50% higher than the 280, it's the way to go. > In any case there is no way to logically stretch a > z80 without running the risk of making it software incompatable at some > point. I've seriously looked at it, still have the 2901s I was thinking > of using. I have z80/10mhz parts however and the 2901s would barely do > that. And if you try, most 10 MHz can run at 12 to 14 MHz. > FYI: z80S180s can be had into the 30+ mhz range. :) Jep and 1 Meg is still plenty of RAM when running CP/M But after all where is the sense of having a Z80 as 64 Bit processor ? It's a well usable 8/16 Bit processor. Even the 380 isnt realy an advantage - you just don't realy need this 32 Bit instructions. A set consecutive 16 Bit instructions can do it in almost the same time. From my point of usage a 16 Bit uP is anything you need - compact code, compact data and greater over all performance. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 22 07:34:22 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <199810221115.NAA17121@marina.fth.sbs.de> > >So, believe it or not my naive young man, people are dumb enough to lose > >the source code. > What I don't believe are these claims that the heart of the Y2K > problem are thousands of businesses running apps as old as I am, > that haven't had to change, or that can't be changed. How many > serious businesses are still running the same unchanged sourceless > app since 1978, much less 1968 or 1958? Most of them are not completely unchanged, but the changes are only in some parts that have been changed every year once or twice - and large parts haven't changed at all for the last 20 or 30 years. Also don't forget - for some programm parts there might be a source, but the object code has been patched (not uncomon) and the source doesn't reflect the programm. Or source tools (assemblers etc) where used, wich are not availabe today ! Or the source is stored in a library where no LMS needed is available - or they are stored on tapes no longer readable (to bee correct no longer readable means in most cases only they can't be just inserted and read - you know, some of the Y2K heros don't spend more than 20 minutes before they decide 'Source gone'). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 22 07:34:22 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <199810221115.NAA17068@marina.fth.sbs.de> > This reminds me of a claim I hear in Y2K discussions, but can hardly > believe: that businesses are running the same *executables* since > the 1950s/60s/70s, and that they don't have the source code to fix it. In fact, this is widely true - Ok, the most cases are not about the source of the whole programm or the main programm its more about subroutines that have been used over the years to solve common things like conversation, key transformations field fixings etc. Especialy in the /360.../390 world some of these routiens are older than the OSes where they are used today. Some are dated back to a thime when source was equal to punch cards - at this time only the object code was stored in libraries - source was stored as card boxes - and some of these little helper work just fine when used in complete new projects, 30 years later. > Sure, they might not have the source to the OS, but their own apps? Remember 30 years - have you ever archived all your work for 30 years ? _EVERY_ Programm you did within these 30 years ? > And that there's been no other reason to change or replace the > programs in all these years, and Y2K is the only reason they need to do it? Jep it is - for example lets take a common old application, for example a salery programm for a big company - the programm still uses the same algorythms since 30 years - the same way of I/O and the same basic data - just some modules for tax calculation have been changed over the years. After all I bet some of these programms will even survive the Y2K hype without change :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 22 08:26:01 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: OT: Modern college educations Message-ID: <199810221206.OAA29599@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> A lot of discussion here on college educations, my 0.02. >> 1) I don't expect New College Grads (NCG's) to know a lot, I expect them to >> know how to find something out that they don't know and how to power >> through bull s**t type work. I also expect them to know the basic theory > Please note that the 2 people I was moaning about earlier (one wanted a > 362.83 Ohm resistor for his LED, the other couldn't grasp '5V across > 4.7kOhms is a little more than a milliamp') were EEs. Thats bad - he should at least have taken a class about resistor networks to build his needed one in a 3D configuration :) >> 2) I don't expect CS majors to be taught assembly, per se. In case you > Oh, IMHO all CS students should have some idea as to what the 'computer' > they are writing programs for actually is. And that means having some > idea of digital electronics and assembly language. I find using tools > that you don't fully understand is a darn good way to produce poor code > (or whatever). So, you're just talking about the usual way , and why languages like C++ are so popular ... >> A fun exercise (in a nerdly sort of way) is to presume you've been dumped >> onto some raw continent with nothing but your brains and underpants, now >> build a PDP-8. (You can assume that you will have food and shelter.) > Hmm... I'd rather build a relay logic machine. Drawing the copper wire > for the coils would be painful but possible. Similarly making soft iron > cores and armatures. A lot easier than trying to make transistors, anyway. In fact, I think I would try to go for a more mechanical device - so I don't have the problem to create a power source and _stable_ voltage wich again includes semiconductors or other kinds of very delicate equipment like mercury rectifiers. >> One of the things that struck me about a 'dead' PC I was attempting to fix >> was that the BIOS flash had been zorched and a) Not only was their no way >> to recover the bios but b) the chipset used was both non-standard and made >> by a now non-existent company who left behind no records. Talk about > Thankfully the BIOS on this PC is in OTP EPROMs, and I have the official > source listings anyway. Ditto schematics of everything but the hard disk. > This machine can be repaired. But independent of the chipset, one should be able to build a minimal start up BIOS to launch a real mode DOS and then a reprogramming is just some steps away. >> and get it working again, when the engine computer on your car breaks, your >> out of luck. > Why do you think that when I get a car I am _not_ having any electronics > anywhere enar the engine :-). Mechanical stuff I can understand and > repair. Electronics I can understand, but there's no way I could make a > custom chip at home. Thats why I still drive a 1988 Skoda Rapid - no electronics. Just imagine the finger print sensor of your new Mercedes S-class care goes wild ... (But on the other hand, a CX25 TRI, maybe as a 6 wheeler, is still a dream car ...) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Oct 22 07:35:07 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: [off topic] Bomb Threat. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13397793017.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Did I answer the phone?] No, the telephone-firewall (secretary) did. (She performs the phone verson of your firewall - Keeps the idiots out) ------- From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Thu Oct 22 08:46:40 1998 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: [off topic] Bomb Threat. In-Reply-To: <13397637953.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <19981021214756.27618.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >[Is it just a kid?] > >No, the secretary that answered the phone said it was a grown man's voice, >and they asked specifically for my boss. Your normal prank-caller >wouldn't do that... >------- well, unless he wanted to give you a real fright... (which he managed?) nasos From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Thu Oct 22 08:55:56 1998 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: [off topic] Bomb Threat. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981021202206.3cffbd08@intellistar.net> References: <13397599183.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: >At 11:50 AM 10/21/98 -0700, you wrote: >> >>This is kinda off topic, but we've just had a bomb threat! >>No joke! Someone phoned in, asked for my boss, and said they >>put a bomb in the building! Why would someone bomb an ISP? > > A lot of times because someone that works there wants the afternoon off. exactly in greece we had that happening in junior high and high school about 4 or 5 times a yr nasos From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Thu Oct 22 09:05:42 1998 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: [off topic] hair In-Reply-To: <362E80BF.21F6798A@cnct.com> References: <199810220000.UAA16519@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: >Jason Willgruber wrote: >> >> Well, comparing myself to _most_ of the keds in my school, I'd say 'odd' is >> the word. In my school, they have a "freak day", where everyon dresses up >> in screwy clothes, and purple hair and everything. Even the teachers do >> it. > >Hmm. Most of the high schools I pass these days seem to have "Freak >Day" defined as any day with a name ending in "y". Then again, I'm >conservatively maintaining the long hair and beard that were the >standard back when I was growing up. (At least unlike a lot of my >classmates, I still have a full head of hair to keep long, even if >there is getting to be a bit of silver mixed in). Of course, since >that used to be the dress code for serious Unix hackers and system >administrators, I have another excuse. well that's something that has given me hope and kept me going with my long hair (found a second white one recently) but over here in the uk long hair is not considered 'smart' smart here means 'well-dressed' and has nothing to do with intelligence i had a goatee too but that left about a year ago luckily i am working in an art college so i have even more of an 'excuse' even though only 3 or 4 others have long hair administrators and all rush about over in the City (business district of london) with their ties and suits... conform... nasos oh but dying my hair purple - id love to (i never got 'round trying that stuff), but that would probably be 'unacceptable' From Mzthompson at aol.com Thu Oct 22 09:23:44 1998 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Fwd: secrets of a microvax II Message-ID: Following is a usenet posting from a guy needing some help with a uVAX II. It sounds like what I would call a basket case, he hauled it home in several baskets in this case. I have emailed him answers to the more basic questions. Since there are a few of you with far more knowledge on this, I thought maybe some of you could help him out. My knowledge of the uVAX II is limited to having gutted out 6 machines being disposed of by former employer. Sorry, that was before I knew of Classiccmp, snif, snif. Mike Please email directly to him. Subject: secrets of a microvax II From: siebert@berlin.gmd-net.de Date: Thu, Oct 22, 1998 07:39 EDT Message-id: <70n5h7$koq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Hi there, I need help... I got a DEC Microvax II System which is partly disassembled and has the following coponents: ------------------- | | ------------------- | | < > | 1) looks like a kind of harddisk ------------------- | < ..I>| 2) MICROVAX II | < ..I>| ------------------- | < . >| 3) ? with a TK50 tape unit | < . >| ------------------- | | 4) RA81 harddisk | | | | | | ------------------- | | 5) power supply ------------------- 1) The harddisk (?) is perhaps from FUJITSU and there is place for a second one. It has to be connected to a EMULEX QD 331040100 controler. I saw some pictures of the same units on the web! 2) The muVAX II processor has no harddisks or any drives and has one switch, four buttons and two LEDs on the front panel. It has the following boards: (back view, top) ------------------------------------------ | M 7606 KA630 CPU | ------------------------------|||||||||--- | M 7608 4MB Memory | ------------------------------|||||||||--- | M 7608 4MB Memory | ------------------------------------------ | |M 7504 DEQNA Ethern.|--cable ------------------------------------------ | | ------------------------------------------ | | ------------------------------------------ | | ------------------------------------------ | | ------------------------------------------ 3) The other housing looks like the muVAX processor but has only two buttons and the built in TK50 tape unit. It has the following boards: (back view, top) ------------------------------------------ | M 9404 connector | |-- cable to muVAX II ------------------------------------------ | M 3104 8 line serial controler |-- cables ------------------------------------------ | M 7546 TK 50 ctrl.| |-- cable to TK 50 ------------------------------------------ | M 7164 QDA processor for KDA 50 |-- cables ----||||||-----------------||||||--------- | M 7165 QDA SDI controller KDA 50 | ------------------------------------------ | | ------------------------------------------ | | ------------------------------------------ | | ------------------------------------------ 4) RA 81 456 MB SDI HDD 5) power supply digital 874-F On the backside are the following connectors: > 8 serial 25 pin SUBD connectors > 4 connectors for SDI drives > 1 DEQNA Ethernet 15 pin SUBD connector with a fuse > bulkhead with 9 pin SUBD console connector I have no documentation except from the manual for the serial controller... Hmm.. now I have some problems/questions...: - Which was perhaps the use of this system ? - which was probably the OS (Unix version...) ? - Was it a single user system ? - where can I get a "user handbook" for the muVAX (booting, meaning of the front buttons of all components...) ? - Which type are the housings for this muVAX (BA23, BA123...) ? - Why is this muVAX II SO BIG ??? (in comparision to the "under table systems" which don't have TWO boxes for the cards...) - What is the difference between a Microvax II and a Vaxstation II ? I have no Terminal to use as console - what kind of connector is the 9 pin SUBD connector on the backside (bulkehead) ? - What kind of terminals can I connect ? (I have some SS97 Siemens Terminals or a IBM colour Terminal...) - Can I use a PC with a TTY or a VT100 emulation and a serial connector cable ? - Do I have to use always a console to start the system (with a switch on it or something like that) ? Some of the cards are disassembled in the machine - Where in the muVAX processor housing 2) must I plug in the M 9404 card coming from the "controller housing" 3) and which side must be on the top ? - Where in the "controller housing" 3) must I plug in the EMULEX controller (it needs only half of the place) ? I am not firm with RA81 HDD - Where in the RA81 must I plug in the flat connector ? - Is only one of the four flat connectors for ONE RAxx drive ? - what are the two round mini 4 pin din connectors for in the RA81 ? - in which of the four flat connectors on the back of the system do I have to plug in the RA81 ? - Is there any information about the SDI "standard" ? In both the processor and the controller housing are slots for connecting HDDs. - Do I need controllers for connecting drives there? - Is it MFM standard ? - When there are no drives in it, do the buttons on the front panel have any function ? General... - How can I use the Ethernet connector (compatibility, wiring...) ? - What is the power supply for ? (one big INPUT, three OUTPUTS - all 220 V and 4 smaller outs !) - from which of the two harddisks (RA81, FUJITSU) does the system boot from ? - What are the 8 serial connectors for (Terminals...) ? - For which use was the TK 50 tape for (booting, streamer...) ? I also got a DEC VR262 screen together with the whole stuff, but I can't imagine that there is any use with the muVAX. - how can I use the VR262 ? I know this are manymanymany questions, but even few ansers would be a great help, thanks - Rainer From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Thu Oct 22 09:45:58 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <19981022002017.2230.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19981021185725.00a73590@texas.net> <362C8A13.42433DEA@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981022094558.0091b570@texas.net> You guys are really raining on my parade.... I have looked at Z180's, Z380's and etc.... They are SLOW!!!!!! The only availabe packaging for the Z380 is un-useable to me as a hobbist (without a lot of headache.) I hate the way that Zilog has taken the nice and simple control bus scheme of the Z-80 and really made it a pain-in-the-butt on the Z-380!. So, If some company would take the Z-bus (but with an (input/output) data size set of bus control lines), Z-80 instruction set and match a DEC Alpha performance (at a cheap price of-course), I would worship that company. (Oh yes, I want a 64bit data bus and a 128bit address bus). Is this asking for too much? Why can't we all just get along? Since this is a dream: My thoughts are this: If I can find some REALLY SIMPLE mirco-controllers that do just the basic microprocessor functions, I can parallel them to make them read-in and intrepret Z-80 code. I cannot see why massively populated microprocessors (like the PPC, Intel, and DEC Alpha) can reach clock speeds of 600 Mcyc and a really simple (one accumulator, bare instruction set) microcontroller can't exceed those speeds! If I got some of these micro-controllers and had two or three of them reading in instructions ahead of execution (looking for branches) I could do half of the job and speed up the through-put. Then use several more u-controllers acting in parallel to actually do the instruction execution. For math, a bunch of stinking fast memory locations acting as look-up tables. Any ideas? From marvin at rain.org Thu Oct 22 09:45:39 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? References: <199810221115.NAA17068@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <362F4513.EF3023F1@rain.org> Hans Franke wrote: > > field fixings etc. Especialy in the /360.../390 world some > of these routiens are older than the OSes where they are used > today. Some are dated back to a thime when source was equal to > punch cards - at this time only the object code was stored in > libraries - source was stored as card boxes - and some of these > little helper work just fine when used in complete new projects, > 30 years later. Good grief, you mean to say that these boxes of source code I have on punch cards are finally going to be worth something :). From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 22 09:55:48 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Y2K and immortal executables In-Reply-To: <199810212258.AA16867@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981022095548.00f65b60@pc> At 06:58 PM 10/21/98 -0400, Allison J Parent wrote: >< I'm still skeptical. > >Ok, howabout a Brigeport milling machine with the PDP-8E it was purchased >with in 1975, still running the same code. Sure, I can imagine that. But I can't imagine it will stop working on January 1, 2000, or that the clock couldn't be set back to 1975 without affecting the milling. >code from the 50s would likely be fortran or Cobol and yes it would be >portable enough to go from one machine to the next with only a compile >(no edits). Code from the late 60s era machine could still be running >oth either native hardware or later machines that had to support old >code. Wait a minute - we history-buffs can certainly place dates for the creation of COBOL and FORTRAN, as well as the period in which those languages became popular for business. What's a reasonable period for the start of popularization of FORTRAN and COBOL? If the source code has existed in some form since the late 50s or early 60s, no programmer since its creation has tinkered with it? I can imagine a slightly more plausible situation in which the source was written in 1961, recompiled and tweaked throughout the Sixties, and somehow the source was lost after recompilation in the Seventies so only the executable remains, and that it's been running in some kind of emulation box since then - but again, I find it hard to believe that almost all date-dependent programs haven't had some *other* reason to be changed in all those intervening years, requiring their replacement or re-creation (in new source code) since then. It's not that I'm denying Y2K - it's that I think it's overblown, especially when it comes to antique computers. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 22 09:56:09 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: OT: Modern college educations In-Reply-To: <199810212307.QAA27896@mxu3.u.washington.edu> References: <199810222329.TAA08266@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981022095609.00f21370@pc> At 04:14 PM 10/21/98 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: > >Another example, the RM-80 docs I've got, everything you need to talk to >the drive at a register level! Documentation for a 3DFx based Voodoo >Graphics card? "I'm sorry Mr. McManis but that information is only >available under NDA to qualified customers who can prove a market of at >least 1K units/month." Talk about self defeating! > >Now if I were James Burke I would have ended up back at college grads, >oh well. But you did, and didn't realize it! The person working tech support was a college grad! :-) I entered UW-Madison in 1981. Both the EE and CS tracks had courses where you learned how PDP-ish computers worked from the flip-flops on up, and you did some assembler programming. Some courses required a knowledge of C, but there weren't any actual courses that *taught* C. You had to pick it up via K&R, or through the volunteer efforts of friendly teaching assistants who held night classes. - John From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 22 10:14:32 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810221514.AA09850@world.std.com> < THe Z180 is already down to 3 cycle/instruction, and the z380 is < down to 2 cycle/instr. But since the maximum clock rate of the < 180 is more than 50% higher than the 280, it's the way to go. No news to me. I'm running a modifed SB180 (z180) and also working with z280/12.5Mhz. I've looked at z380. < > of using. I have z80/10mhz parts however and the 2901s would barely d < > that. < < And if you try, most 10 MHz can run at 12 to 14 MHz. I've taken the 10Mhz part to 12.5Mhz. < < > FYI: z80S180s can be had into the 30+ mhz range. < :) Jep and 1 Meg is still plenty of RAM when running CP/M That it is. < But after all where is the sense of having a Z80 as 64 Bit < processor ? It's a well usable 8/16 Bit processor. Even the < 380 isnt really an advantage - you just don't realy need this < 32 Bit instructions. A set consecutive 16 Bit instructions Larger flat address space. The z380 would make a real good data handler (z382 is a PC bus slave version for comms) or possibly a graphics crunchers. Even in the z80 native mode you can access beyond the 64k basic addressing in a manor that is more convenient than the basic z80 provides. In most cases the extended mode changes the the effect of the arithmetic overflow in 16bit ops so that 0FFFFh+1 is not 0000. but 10000h. There are of course extended operations as addressing modes as well. < can do it in almost the same time. From my point of usage < a 16 Bit uP is anything you need - compact code, compact data < and greater over all performance. Z380 still has those attributes. It saves the memory management overhead for apps that need to get at spaces larger than 64k. I plan to do a bit of serious work with one if I can get my hands on a few and a socket adaptor. Allison From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 22 11:36:07 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? Message-ID: <199810221516.RAA25496@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> field fixings etc. Especialy in the /360.../390 world some >> of these routiens are older than the OSes where they are used >> today. Some are dated back to a thime when source was equal to >> punch cards - at this time only the object code was stored in >> libraries - source was stored as card boxes - and some of these >> little helper work just fine when used in complete new projects, >> 30 years later. > Good grief, you mean to say that these boxes of source code I have on punch > cards are finally going to be worth something :). Yeah - but fast, you have to finde s.o. in need of them :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From gram at cnct.com Thu Oct 22 10:35:29 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: [way off topic] (was Re: [off topic] Bomb Threat.) References: <199810220251.TAA05998@saul9.u.washington.edu> <19981022040056.3394.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <362F50C1.72F041D0@cnct.com> Eric Smith wrote: > > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > For your sake I hope you didn't answer the phone. When I was in the Navy I > > made the mistake of answering the phone. Next thing I knew I was halfway > > across the base half out of uniform, grilled, and then left to find my own > > way back to the ship. > > Derek Peschel replied: > > I don't get it. Am I confused or is this a silly joke? > > > > If you don't answer the phone then you don't know what the caller wants. > > (OK, you could have Caller ID, but a random number -- which may be a pay > > phone -- doesn't automatically mean "bomb threat".) > > The point wasn't that you shouldn't answer the phone if it's a bomb threat. > > The point was that you're unfortunate if you happen to be the poor slob that > *does* answer the phone when it happens to be a bomb threat, because you > can expect quite a grilling by the police/military/whoever. Think about the poor bastard who found the pipe bomb at the Atlanta Olympics, for instance. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Thu Oct 22 10:40:26 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: [off topic] Bomb Threat. References: <19981021214756.27618.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <362F51EA.3037BE62@cnct.com> Athanasios Kotsenos wrote: > > >[Is it just a kid?] > > > >No, the secretary that answered the phone said it was a grown man's voice, > >and they asked specifically for my boss. Your normal prank-caller > >wouldn't do that... > >------- > > well, unless he wanted to give you a real fright... > (which he managed?) > nasos And asking for the boss by name more often than not implies an (ex-?)employee or a dissatisfied customer -- who else would know (or care about) his name? (Unless he's been prominent in a news story about "minority-run" businesses or something). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Thu Oct 22 11:10:19 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: [way off topic] (was Re: [off topic] Bomb Threat.) References: <199810220541.WAA20210@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <362F58EB.A77A9042@cnct.com> D. Peschel wrote: > > > The point wasn't that you shouldn't answer the phone if it's a bomb threat. > > > > The point was that you're unfortunate if you happen to be the poor slob that > > *does* answer the phone when it happens to be a bomb threat, because you > > can expect quite a grilling by the police/military/whoever. > > Oh. That makes a lot more sense. > > I don't know if "made the mistake of answering the phone" (which is what Zane > said) is really the right phrase, though. Having spent much of my career in technical support and system administration, "made the mistake of answering the phone" is usually the right phrase. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk Thu Oct 22 12:15:57 1998 From: Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:34 2005 Subject: Hello Again Message-ID: <002566A5.005DFDF7.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Well, I'm back. And what a long time it took. Two weeks in the USA, seeing California and attending the VCF; nearly a week in bed with food poisoning after the flight home; and two weeks on this bl**** awful new e-mail software at work before I could get it to behave well enough to trust it with the volume of mail Classiccmp provides. (We're using Lotus Notes, BTW. Most of us now call it Lotus Not.) I really just wanted to say I thoroughly enjoyed the VCF. Well done Sam, a wonderful effort. In a recent telephone conversation with Tony Duell, he mentioned that someone (was it Kevan?) was thinking of doing a VCF in the UK. To that person: I am definitely prepared to support you. I can provide plenty of computers for exhibiting; I can talk on some suitable subject; I am prepared to chip in a fair amount of dosh to get this show on the road. Looking forward to a lot of fun again reading Classiccmp, Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bloedem Volke unverstaendlich treiben wir des Lebens Spiel. Grade das, was unabwendlich fruchtet unserm Spott als Ziel. Magst es Kinder-Rache nennen an des Daseins tiefem Ernst; Wirst das Leben besser kennen, wenn du uns verstehen lernst. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk From Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk Thu Oct 22 12:26:39 1998 From: Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: Fluke multimeters: infringement of international safety standard Message-ID: <002566A5.005F2C91.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> This came round at work. I don't know if any of you have a Fluke 80 series - IMHO the Fluke 87 is still one of the best multimeters that money can buy. (I don't have that much money so I have a Fluke 29 and am thus not affected.) However, I believe electrical safety is something to take very seriously. I have received nasty shocks and nastier burns from accidentally touching the mains (yes, even the earth conductor), and the rectified mains in switch mode power supplies is even nastier. Not to mention high voltages in monitors, etc. Philip. ---------------------- Forwarded by Philip Belben/PTech/PowerGen on 22/10/98 17:23 --------------------------- From: Chris Bright on 22/10/98 09:22 To: George WEDGWOOD/Westwood/PowerGen@PowerGen cc: (bcc: Philip Belben/PTech/PowerGen) Subject: Fluke electrical multimeters: infringement of international safety standard Recently Fluke Corporation discovered a small dimensional shortfall within its 80 Series III digital multimeters and 787 process multimeters. This means that the meters do not comply with IEC 1010-1 which deals with double or reinforced insulation in the 1000V Overvoltage Category III rating. The problem may be solved by fitting a replacement battery cover obtainable free form Fluke. The affected range of products are: Model Serial number Manufactured Date From To From To 83 III 69810781 71200001 29 Dec 1997 7 July 1998 85 III 69810501 71200001 29 Dec 1997 7 July 1998 87 III 69910001 71200001 12 Jan 1998 7 July 1998 787 All units prior to 71200001 7 July 1998 For further information please contact the local Fluke Sales Office on Tel 01 923 216400. [NB that is a UK number local to us at Nottingham. PDB] Chris Bright Power Technology File DXHA/SAFT/ELEC/OFFC From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 22 11:36:37 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: Y2K and immortal executables Message-ID: <199810221636.AA16354@world.std.com> < >Ok, howabout a Brigeport milling machine with the PDP-8E it was purchas < >with in 1975, still running the same code. < < Sure, I can imagine that. But I can't imagine it will stop working < on January 1, 2000, or that the clock couldn't be set back to 1975 < without affecting the milling. Correction, what clock? Most control apps clocks are intervals, time between events, maybe time of day or week for longer periods and its rare that they even consider time of year. Keep in mind that until sometime past 1981ish clocks were not chips that kept time of day/year. Of ten they were a periodic interrupt that was totalized for time and date. So if the clock was broken it was software not hardware. The one example where Y2K has hit a PDP-8 use was a nuke power plant and the PDP-8 doing data logging had to print the right time date on the page. If the time and date were wrong nothing stopped working but the NRC would be upset with the dataing of the logs. FYI: Y2K happens to hit every 7-8 years on PDP-8 OSs as they only use 3bits for relative year. Bits used to be expensive! < If the source code has existed in some form since the late 50s or < early 60s, no programmer since its creation has tinkered with it? < I can imagine a slightly more plausible situation in which the source < was written in 1961, recompiled and tweaked throughout the Sixties, < and somehow the source was lost after recompilation in the Seventies < so only the executable remains, and that it's been running in some This is likely the commonplace event and the machine by the 70s was stable platform say like DG Nova, PDP-11 or other that has a lifespan exceeding 10+ years or still being made. Lost in some cases means it exists and somewhere on a backup that is in a room with 10,000 tapes of other backups that no one has looked at for 7+ years. Heck my vax archive is over 7 years old and is more than 20 TK50s. I don't recycle major backups as I've had tapes fail. So the deeper the archive the less likely the loss and also harder to find a specific item. This is only hobby use. business should do this far more often. < It's not that I'm denying Y2K - it's that I think it's overblown, < especially when it comes to antique computers. Me too. Many system Y2K is a singular event or non event. The only ones I even think about in relation to it are the PCs and maybe the VAXen (I run VMS 5.3 to 5.5). The PDP-11s may not like the date but most of the stuuff I do is not date centric so unless the OS breaks it keeps cranking. The PC makes me worry as DOS/Win and internetorking software may have bombs I don't know nor can fix myself. I've bumped the clock and it seems to behave though. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 22 11:36:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810221636.AA16561@world.std.com> < I have looked at Z180's, Z380's and etc.... They are SLOW!!!!!! The < only availabe packaging for the Z380 is un-useable to me as a hobbist < (without a lot of headache.) Slow clock but they use fewer clocks and 16bit fetch. The effective speed is higher. Also the chip spped in climbing. The socket is a 25$ item to get from flat pack to wire wrapable. < I hate the way that Zilog has taken the nice and simple control bus sche < of the Z-80 and really made it a pain-in-the-butt on the Z-380!. At first I was of that opinion. Then I started with the z280 (Zbus mode) and z8000 and looked back at the z380 and it looks worse than it is. It's advantage is that it puts out advanced timing info making fast systems possible while using less bus bandwidth. < size set of bus control lines), Z-80 instruction set and match a DEC Alp < performance (at a cheap price of-course), I would worship that company. Why not find and Alpha and write z80 PALcode for it? < (Oh yes, I want a 64bit data bus and a 128bit address bus). Is this ask < for too much? Why can't we all just get along? You don't know why that isn't done. There are things about the z80 that do not scale well. < My thoughts are this: If I can find some REALLY SIMPLE mirco-controlle < that do just the basic microprocessor functions, I can parallel them to < make them read-in and intrepret Z-80 code. Like I said it's the sub 1nS memory that will stop you. A z80 at a theorhetical clock of 100mhz would require the memory *system* to have a M1 read cycle of less than 10nS. Try and find logic for decode and memory taht can make that happen in the required time. The Z80 bus provides little in the way of advanced timing to overlap operations so you need really fast memory and IO stuff. For example while z80s at faster than 10mhz are easy to get peripherals for greater than 8mhz are scarce and some never got faster than 4-6mhz! < and DEC Alpha) can reach clock speeds of 600 Mcyc and a really simple (o < accumulator, bare instruction set) microcontroller can't exceed those sp It's a study in piplelined operations. Simple machines have less to pipleine so the individual elements have to be faster. You cannot overlap as many operations as there only a few. Even with current superfast logic sub 1nS gates are rather scarce. So you hit the speed limit IE: how fast can you compare two numbers and branch based on the result. < If I got some of these micro-controllers and had two or three of them < reading in instructions ahead of execution (looking for branches) I coul < do half of the job and speed up the through-put. Except that they arent avalable that fast. Your trying to discretely do what a PII does internally. It's in esscence doing several things in parallel assuming some will be thrown away (branch no taken, add not done and so on) that take complex archecture so that you have more irons in the fire and can be more speculative. < For math, a bunch of stinking fast memory locations acting as look-up ta That works but to get the speeds you talking about where do these sub 3nS rams/roms come from? Can you wire them on a card so that the lead lengths are not a significant part of the timing (remember 1ft=1nS). These become real things when the clock exceeds 100MHz. I know this from doing a 20mhz z180 design on paper and I was looking at fast cache rams chips to keep the memory inline, but for IO wat states were a must as most periperal chips I could find were limited to 10mhz bus speed range. I know I'm a party pooper but, I'm also one of those wacky engineers that has pushed the z80/z180/z280 to the edge and know what a design must do to work. On the other hand running CPM at 12.5MHz z180 is frighteningly fast but also points out system bottlenecks like disk speed! I've been putting time into overcomming that using disk caches and the like. Allison From gram at cnct.com Thu Oct 22 11:40:31 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) References: <199810221045.MAA28486@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <362F5FFF.9E76202D@cnct.com> Hans Franke wrote: > But after all where is the sense of having a Z80 as 64 Bit > processor ? It's a well usable 8/16 Bit processor. Even the > 380 isnt realy an advantage - you just don't realy need this > 32 Bit instructions. A set consecutive 16 Bit instructions > can do it in almost the same time. From my point of usage > a 16 Bit uP is anything you need - compact code, compact data Well, it might be fun to redo TRS-80 Level I BASIC with 32-bit instructions. (No way would I try to do that with LDOS/LS-DOS -- it's already perfect). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 22 12:54:14 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810221634.SAA25417@marina.fth.sbs.de> > You guys are really raining on my parade.... Sorry, but most is just physics. > I have looked at Z180's, Z380's and etc.... They are SLOW!!!!!! The > only availabe packaging for the Z380 is un-useable to me as a hobbist > (without a lot of headache.) Anything you need is a socket adaptor. > So, If some company would take the Z-bus (but with an (input/output) data > size set of bus control lines), Z-80 instruction set and match a DEC Alpha > performance (at a cheap price of-course), I would worship that company. > (Oh yes, I want a 64bit data bus and a 128bit address bus). Is this asking > for too much? Why can't we all just get along? Why not just take an Alpha if you want Alpha features ? And now tell me where you need 128 Bit address ? Just in case, even to fill a 64 Bit memory you need 4 GIG of mem thats just 4 grand ... and 128 Bit memory used ... oh unly 16,000,000,000,000 Dollar ... gee rich man > Since this is a dream: Just listen to Allison, she (now I know) already pointed it out: physics. > My thoughts are this: If I can find some REALLY SIMPLE mirco-controllers > that do just the basic microprocessor functions, Lets just assume you need only 4 cycles on your micro-controller to do the equivalent of an Z80 cycle (after all they are software controlled). this means a 400 MHz micro controller equals a 100 MHz Z80 with an sustaind rate of around 25 MIPS - thats just double to tripple the rate of an Z180 - not a big deal - and anything faster would require Memory with less than 10 nS access access time - and if you remember SDRAM design, there are some quirks to resolve - your simple Bus concept is dead. And speaking of timing - at 1GHz, a signal traveles less than 30 cm (or less than one foot if you like the ancient way). If you take just 500 MHz and lets say 1.4 ns of switching time, wireing at hobist level is impossible. just forget it - these speeds are only possible inside of chips - gee even chip designers have problem with the path inside the chip, and you want rant about using special socets ? > I can parallel them to make them read-in and intrepret Z-80 code. Paralell them - interleaved (pipelined) or even out of order execution ? Have you ever been involved ? O3 is the crudest thig one could imagine - you need 5 to 15 times the logic of the active components (ALU etc.) just to coordinate the concurent components. > I cannot see why massively populated microprocessors (like the PPC, Intel, > and DEC Alpha) can reach clock speeds of 600 Mcyc and a really simple (one > accumulator, bare instruction set) microcontroller can't exceed those speeds! Because they are ONE pice of silicon ? > If I got some of these micro-controllers and had two or three of them > reading in instructions ahead of execution (looking for branches) I could > do half of the job and speed up the through-put. What about taking an extreme simple CPU and try to think again on a simplified base - I would suggest the 1802 - one of the simpelest designs - less than 300 gate function as I remember. No complex math just addition no fancy OPs just minimal needs. And now try to think about O3 and parallel concepts at this simple base. > Then use several more u-controllers acting in parallel to actually do the > instruction execution. See above. > For math, a bunch of stinking fast memory locations acting as look-up tables. A one cycle ALU is still faster - and when using 64 or 128 bit math you need more ROM than available on earth. > Any ideas? Using hyperspace ? Gruss H. PS.: pleas notice, I got it on topic (1802) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 22 13:09:32 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810221650.SAA10756@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> But after all where is the sense of having a Z80 as 64 Bit >> processor ? It's a well usable 8/16 Bit processor. Even the >> 380 isnt realy an advantage - you just don't realy need this >> 32 Bit instructions. A set consecutive 16 Bit instructions >> can do it in almost the same time. From my point of usage >> a 16 Bit uP is anything you need - compact code, compact data > Well, it might be fun to redo TRS-80 Level I BASIC with 32-bit > instructions. (No way would I try to do that with LDOS/LS-DOS -- > it's already perfect). But just tell me where 32 Bit instructions can be usefull ? In fact, I can't think of any part inside a BASIC. But the higher clockrates are a nice thing - and maybe the z180 for 3.0 style bankswitching. BTW: LDOS - I have a Modell III with external HD - hasn't there been an LDOS to boot from ? (I'm not the deep TRS guy). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From gram at cnct.com Thu Oct 22 12:30:39 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) References: <199810221650.SAA10756@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <362F6BBF.16B4E39B@cnct.com> Hans Franke wrote: > > >> But after all where is the sense of having a Z80 as 64 Bit > >> processor ? It's a well usable 8/16 Bit processor. Even the > >> 380 isnt realy an advantage - you just don't realy need this > >> 32 Bit instructions. A set consecutive 16 Bit instructions > >> can do it in almost the same time. From my point of usage > >> a 16 Bit uP is anything you need - compact code, compact data > > > Well, it might be fun to redo TRS-80 Level I BASIC with 32-bit > > instructions. (No way would I try to do that with LDOS/LS-DOS -- > > it's already perfect). > > But just tell me where 32 Bit instructions can be usefull ? > In fact, I can't think of any part inside a BASIC. But the > higher clockrates are a nice thing - and maybe the z180 for > 3.0 style bankswitching. Note my choice of wording -- "fun", not "useful". Level I BASIC was never very useful on its best day except for learning and playing. It's hard to do serious programming with a limit of 26 numeric variables, two string variables and one array. But it _is_ fun to see what you can do with it with twenty more years of sneaky programming tricks (most of mine having involved the Unix Bourne shell and its descendants) under your belt. > BTW: LDOS - I have a Modell III with external HD - hasn't > there been an LDOS to boot from ? (I'm not the deep TRS guy). The only "official" operating system for a Model III with a hard drive _was_ LDOS. Also for the Model One. TRSDOS 6, later called LS-DOS, was written by Logical Systems for the Model 4. (There was also a version of LS-DOS for the Model II/12 series [8" drives] but all of my copies were lost years back in a move, along with a lot of other material related to those systems -- as Ben Franklin once said, three moves equals one fire). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From thomas at 0000000.com Thu Oct 22 12:25:14 1998 From: thomas at 0000000.com (Thomas Poff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: Building your own Z80 / performance References: <3.0.3.32.19981021185725.00a73590@texas.net> <362C8A13.42433DEA@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: <199810221736.KAA21608@0000000.com> Hi, I have never tho't of the Z80 as a slow processor. I interfaced a Z180 running at 18 mhz to a VGA board recently and using a C compiler was able to build a machine that acted essentially like a 80286 running at 10 mhz. The system was compact and inexpensive, with lots of i/o options and such. A Z80 running at 200 mhz would be a phenomenal performer. If you have cash, you can find Z80 cores in verilog these days. A Z80 with MMU (a la Z180) rounds out to about 8k gates in logic. This being the case, you can fit it into a single FPGA with lotsuv room to spare. You could prototype in Verilog on an FPGA and turn a few custom chips if that's what you want. Z80 is a pretty cool platform for building an extremely cheap and modern network computer since it acts a lot like a 16 bit processor. There's a lot you can do with it with a relatively minimal effort. Why not look at doing your own Z80 in a Xilinx or Altera part? Obviously you can't get 200 mhz out of it unless you turn your own chip but you can get all of the flexibility you want in a fairly fast processor. Producing a custom chip is expensive but may be your only option if you want that ultra-fast Z80. Incidentally, these guys (see link below) have a board anyone can use for learning and building a Z80 on an FPGA. They have a board with a 20,000 gate FPGA for about $350 that looks interesting enough to get started on. I believe you can also gang them up in parallel for any weird projects you might have in mind. Keep in mind that because of routing issues, not all 20,000 gates are usable in a design. http://www.xess.com (click on other products) ---- Begin forwarded message: Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:45:58 -0500 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu From: Arfon Gryffydd To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <19981022002017.2230.qmail@brouhaha.com> X-Sender: arfonrg@texas.net X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN You guys are really raining on my parade.... I have looked at Z180's, Z380's and etc.... They are SLOW!!!!!! The only availabe packaging for the Z380 is un-useable to me as a hobbist (without a lot of headache.) I hate the way that Zilog has taken the nice and simple control bus scheme of the Z-80 and really made it a pain-in-the-butt on the Z-380!. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 22 12:30:14 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810221730.AA10063@world.std.com> < But just tell me where 32 Bit instructions can be usefull ? < In fact, I can't think of any part inside a BASIC. But the < higher clockrates are a nice thing - and maybe the z180 for < 3.0 style bankswitching. They can address the full 32bit address space (without banking) and the z380 adds a host of addressing modes not in the z80 like 32bit indirect, PC relative and stack relative with long pointers. Also MUL, DIV and a handfull of other nice instructions that would sharply speed on the math functions. Also there are 4 sets of registers compared to the dual set of the z80/z180. Allison From cmcmanis at freegate.com Thu Oct 22 13:03:36 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: Y2K and immortal executables In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981022095548.00f65b60@pc> References: <199810212258.AA16867@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810221757.KAA26078@mxu3.u.washington.edu> At 09:55 AM 10/22/98 -0500, John wrote: >Sure, I can imagine that. But I can't imagine it will stop working >on January 1, 2000, or that the clock couldn't be set back to 1975 >without affecting the milling. Now I'm going to be ill. Look out world, here comes "Millenium Savings Time." Yes boys and girls, at midnight on December 31st 1999 we are all going to turn back our calenders to 1990 and the date will officially be 1, Jan, 1990 _again_. This will give the world another 10 years to fix their problems and then on December 31st 1999 (MST) we turn the calendar _forward_ 10 years. Remember, you heard it hear first! --Chuck From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Oct 22 13:37:32 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: ARCnet... Message-ID: <199810221835.NAA28208@falcon.inetnebr.com> I've got a box of them you can have for the shipping cost. I haven't checked lately, but I think there are like 8 or 10 or more in the box... >Arfon Gryffydd wrote: >> >> 2) Anyone have any old ARCnet cards they wanna get rid of??? > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From cmcmanis at freegate.com Thu Oct 22 14:10:30 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981022094558.0091b570@texas.net> References: <19981022002017.2230.qmail@brouhaha.com> <3.0.3.32.19981021185725.00a73590@texas.net> Message-ID: <199810221904.MAA03527@mxu3.u.washington.edu> At 09:45 AM 10/22/98 -0500, it was written: >Since this is a dream: ... >For math, a bunch of stinking fast memory locations acting as look-up tables. ... >Any ideas? Well, if you want to dream, and you have a _LOT_ of very fast memory available, you can build a 2Ghz Z80 as follows: Build the system with two sets of memory, one bank contains combinations of bank number and address, the other contains several million 64K memory images. Now "compile" your code by creating a directed graph of all possible memory states for all possible execution paths (detection when the graph collapses into loops of course) and load your memory. Now you can "execute" your code by reading the control bank and switching to the bank indicated and reading again. Each "execution" would cost 1 memory fetch. With predictive execution (that is to say when you know that you are going to move the next four states in sequence) you can "jump ahead" to the fourth state thus effectively execution 4 instructions in one memory fetch time. Clearly the slowest mode of execution will be all register manipulation/conditional jump instructions (no predictions are used immediately) The fastest execution will be execution that doesn't generate I/O (external non-memory based state) then you can go right to the end state. --Chuck From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Thu Oct 22 14:17:15 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981021185725.00a73590@texas.net> References: <362C8A13.42433DEA@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981022141715.009254b0@texas.net> First of all, thanks Allison for bring up the technical limitations. Keep them comming. As for a 64Bit data bus, there is no reason for a 64bit instruction but, but with 64bits of data, you can do a hell-of-alot with video and signal synthesis (i.e. sound). Now Hans said: >And now tell me where you need 128 Bit address ? Just in >case, even to fill a 64 Bit memory you need 4 GIG of >mem thats just 4 grand ... and 128 Bit memory used ... >oh unly 16,000,000,000,000 Dollar ... gee rich man It is good design in my opinion to have your address bus twice as wide as your data bus. If you keep thinking like "you'll need $16,000,000,000.00 in memory for that address size" you'll do the same stupid thing as: Micro$oft ("640K is more than enough for anyone"), old programmers ("year 2000 is 20 years away. This stuff will be obsolete by then"), and let us not forget Intel with their screwy memory addressing schemes on their pre-X386s. Think ahead! It wouldn't cost that much more or requrie much more effort to add a few bits to the address bus. Wow, I didn't intend for that to sound as sarcastic... No offence intended Hans. As for the suggestion of using a DEC alpha to emulate a Z-80... I thought about it but, those darned Alphas are way too expensive for us hobbist. Tell me more... what are Verilog, Xilinx or Altera? Anyone know if Zilog is going to beef up the Zx80 line???? Arfon "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Thu Oct 22 14:19:35 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <199810221904.MAA03527@mxu3.u.washington.edu> References: <3.0.3.32.19981022094558.0091b570@texas.net> <19981022002017.2230.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981022141935.00ae8c90@texas.net> At 12:10 PM 10/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >At 09:45 AM 10/22/98 -0500, it was written: >>Since this is a dream: >... >>For math, a bunch of stinking fast memory locations acting as look-up tables. >... >>Any ideas? > >Well, if you want to dream, and you have a _LOT_ of very fast memory >available, you can build a 2Ghz Z80 as follows: > >Build the system with two sets of memory, one bank contains combinations of >bank number and address, the other contains several million 64K memory >images. Now "compile" your code by creating a directed graph of all >possible memory states for all possible execution paths (detection when the >graph collapses into loops of course) and load your memory. Now you can >"execute" your code by reading the control bank and switching to the bank >indicated and reading again. Each "execution" would cost 1 memory fetch. >With predictive execution (that is to say when you know that you are going >to move the next four states in sequence) you can "jump ahead" to the >fourth state thus effectively execution 4 instructions in one memory fetch >time. Clearly the slowest mode of execution will be all register >manipulation/conditional jump instructions (no predictions are used >immediately) The fastest execution will be execution that doesn't generate >I/O (external non-memory based state) then you can go right to the end state. > > >--Chuck > NOW YOU'RE TALKING!!!!! Anyone wanna help me solder some Diode ROM boards!?!?! Arfon "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 22 14:11:15 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <199810221634.SAA25417@marina.fth.sbs.de> (franke@sbs.de) References: <199810221634.SAA25417@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <19981022191115.4100.qmail@brouhaha.com> Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > (Oh yes, I want a 64bit data bus and a 128bit address bus). Is this asking > for too much? Why can't we all just get along? "Hans Franke" replied: > Why not just take an Alpha if you want Alpha features ? > And now tell me where you need 128 Bit address ? Just in > case, even to fill a 64 Bit memory you need 4 GIG of > mem thats just 4 grand ... and 128 Bit memory used ... > oh unly 16,000,000,000,000 Dollar ... gee rich man Actually, it takes 4G of RAM to fill a 32-bit address space. A 64-bit address space will require 4 billion times that much, or approximately 1.8x10^19 bytes of memory. Enough memory to fill a 128-bit address space would be approximately 3.4x10^38. Making this much memory using current technology would require more raw material than available in the solar system. If you had bulk transmutation of elements you might be able to do it. I think what he really meant was that he wanted a 128-bit data bus and a 64-bit address bus. This would be much more useful in general, though not too useful on a Z-80. Hans writes: > Why not just take an Alpha if you want Alpha features ? That was exactly what I thought when I saw Arfon's posting. Might as well wish for a 12-cylinder engine and dual carbs for a lawnmower; it would be more practical. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 22 14:19:00 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: Y2K and immortal executables In-Reply-To: <199810221757.KAA26078@mxu3.u.washington.edu> (message from Chuck McManis on Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:03:36 -0700) References: <199810212258.AA16867@world.std.com> <199810221757.KAA26078@mxu3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19981022191900.4144.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > Now I'm going to be ill. Look out world, here comes "Millenium Savings > Time." Yes boys and girls, at midnight on December 31st 1999 we are all > going to turn back our calenders to 1990 and the date will officially be 1, > Jan, 1990 _again_. This will give the world another 10 years to fix their > problems and then on December 31st 1999 (MST) we turn the calendar > _forward_ 10 years. Actually it should be 28 years rather than 10, so that the day of the week and leap year cycle remain correct. That will give us plenty of time to fix the problem. Of course, then no one will work on the problem for another 26 years. Lots of people will be unhappy when they suddenly find themselves below the legal ages for voting, driving, drinking, etc. The Internet Software Consortium (the people that develop and maintain BIND, DHCP, etc.) have a nice web page describing their strategy for dealing with the Unix Y2038 problem: http://www.isc.org/y2k.html/ (Don't hold your breath.) From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Thu Oct 22 14:32:36 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <19981022191115.4100.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199810221634.SAA25417@marina.fth.sbs.de> <199810221634.SAA25417@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981022143236.00ae54b0@texas.net> >Hans writes: >> Why not just take an Alpha if you want Alpha features ? > >That was exactly what I thought when I saw Arfon's posting. I want a Z-80's features with an Alpha's performance... Arfon "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 22 14:46:11 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: 1972 (was: Y2K and immortal executables In-Reply-To: <19981022191900.4144.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Chuck McManis wrote: > > Now I'm going to be ill. Look out world, here comes "Millenium Savings > > Time." Yes boys and girls, at midnight on December 31st 1999 we are all > > going to turn back our calenders to 1990 and the date will officially be 1, > > Jan, 1990 _again_. This will give the world another 10 years to fix their > > problems and then on December 31st 1999 (MST) we turn the calendar > > _forward_ 10 years. > On 22 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > Actually it should be 28 years rather than 10, so that the day of the week > and leap year cycle remain correct. That will give us plenty of time to > fix the problem. Of course, then no one will work on the problem for another > 26 years. > Lots of people will be unhappy when they suddenly find themselves below the > legal ages for voting, driving, drinking, etc. Ohmigod! We would keep going back over and over and over to 1972?!? (Like "Ground Hog Day") How many times would we need to repeat those 28 years before we get it right? THIS time I'll take that job offer in Albuquerque, not get involved with what's-her-name, release XenoCopy with Phillipe Kahn instead of Vertex, keep the Honda S-800, . . . I think that I'd still prefer to do the sixties instead. Even without microcomputers they were a lot more fun. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 22 15:00:41 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: L-DOS (Was: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <362F6BBF.16B4E39B@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > The only "official" operating system for a Model III with a hard > drive _was_ LDOS. Also for the Model One. TRSDOS 6, later called > LS-DOS, was written by Logical Systems for the Model 4. (There > was also a version of LS-DOS for the Model II/12 series [8" drives] > but all of my copies were lost years back in a move, along with a > lot of other material related to those systems -- as Ben Franklin > once said, three moves equals one fire). My recollections from the time: LDOS preceded the model 4. Lobo Systems sold cheap disk drives for the model I. Then they built a replacement expansion interface (which includes the FDC). They used a WD 179x instead of 177x in order to add double density capability, as did the Percom Doubler. TRS-DOS wasn't going to do it for their double density system. So they contracted with Randy Cook (TRS-DOS 2.0, 2.1, VTOS 3.0, 4.0, etc.) When they realized that Randy Cook was incapable of ever finishing any project (although brilliant at starting them), they went on a hiring spree and hired a whole bunch of talent (such as Roy Soltoff) to finish the OS (LDOS 5.0). To market the OS Lobo set up "Logical Systems, Inc." Meanwhile, RS came out with the Model 3, and "Model 3 TRS-DOS V1.3". Eventually RS gave up on it and contracted to distribute LDOS under the name "TRS-DOS 6". THEN RS came out with the Model 4, and finally acknowledged the existence of CP/M. Anyone want to buy original copies of VTOS 3.0, 4.0, LDOS, Lobo expansion interface, Lobo 8" drives for model 1, some model 1s, or 3s? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Oct 22 15:02:54 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: Y2K and immortal executables Message-ID: <19981022200254.27908.qmail@hotmail.com> But aren't there many machines that keep track of time and date? I've heard that credit cards are starting to fail if their expiration date is 2000. I don't know why all the fuss about the control tower computers or power plants (all scheduling should be doublechecked by humans anyway), but I'm sure there may be problems with checks/bills. >< >with in 1975, still running the same code. >< >< Sure, I can imagine that. But I can't imagine it will stop working >< on January 1, 2000, or that the clock couldn't be set back to 1975 >< without affecting the milling. > >Correction, what clock? Most control apps clocks are intervals, time >between events, maybe time of day or week for longer periods and its >rare that they even consider time of year. > >Keep in mind that until sometime past 1981ish clocks were not chips that >kept time of day/year. Of ten they were a periodic interrupt that was >totalized for time and date. So if the clock was broken it was software >not hardware. > >The one example where Y2K has hit a PDP-8 use was a nuke power plant >and the PDP-8 doing data logging had to print the right time date on >the page. If the time and date were wrong nothing stopped working >but the NRC would be upset with the dataing of the logs. FYI: Y2K >happens to hit every 7-8 years on PDP-8 OSs as they only use 3bits for >relative year. Bits used to be expensive! > >< If the source code has existed in some form since the late 50s or >< early 60s, no programmer since its creation has tinkered with it? >< I can imagine a slightly more plausible situation in which the source >< was written in 1961, recompiled and tweaked throughout the Sixties, >< and somehow the source was lost after recompilation in the Seventies >< so only the executable remains, and that it's been running in some > >This is likely the commonplace event and the machine by the 70s was >stable platform say like DG Nova, PDP-11 or other that has a lifespan >exceeding 10+ years or still being made. > >Lost in some cases means it exists and somewhere on a backup that is >in a room with 10,000 tapes of other backups that no one has looked >at for 7+ years. > >Heck my vax archive is over 7 years old and is more than 20 TK50s. I >don't recycle major backups as I've had tapes fail. So the deeper the >archive the less likely the loss and also harder to find a specific >item. This is only hobby use. business should do this far more often. > >< It's not that I'm denying Y2K - it's that I think it's overblown, >< especially when it comes to antique computers. > >Me too. Many system Y2K is a singular event or non event. The only >ones I even think about in relation to it are the PCs and maybe the >VAXen (I run VMS 5.3 to 5.5). The PDP-11s may not like the date but >most of the stuuff I do is not date centric so unless the OS breaks it >keeps cranking. The PC makes me worry as DOS/Win and internetorking >software may have bombs I don't know nor can fix myself. I've bumped the >clock and it seems to behave though. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From headcase at eclipse.co.uk Thu Oct 22 15:29:29 1998 From: headcase at eclipse.co.uk (Jim Bunting) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: FS in UK - Intel & Cromemco Etc. circa 1974 & 1980 Message-ID: <003801bdfdfa$ba60cf80$ad802ed4@default> Thanks to all those of you who replied about the computer equipment I'm selling I read all the replies up to about second week in September but lost those together with a massive pile of un-read mail up to a few weeks back.. If you havent had a reply - sorry - over confidence or Bill's bugs - I still haven't figured out which I've sorted through all my computers and equipment and listed them on my web pages .http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/ together with photos etc The Intell, Addmaster, Roytron, Mesonix etc. stuff is on http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/sellintel.htm I have listed all the information I have, together with photographs of each item. Unfortunately I seem to have lost the folder containing all the original documentation but most of the stuff is circa 74/75. The Cromemcos and software stuff are on http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/sellcromemco.htm There are three working Cromemco Systems circa 1978 to 1984 - two System Three's and one Z-2H - together with a pile of instruction and technical manuals. I have listed some of the more interesting software on some of the one hundred and fifty (approx) 8" disks. There may be some software or manuals that are needed by subscribers to this list - that shouldn't be bundled for sale with the equipment. If having seen my web site - it's not bad for someone who never progressed past machine code - you think I have, or even might have, something you want e-mail me and I will try to reply promptly. Unfortunately most of the stuff is stored 150 miles north of here in Worcester, so I won't get the chance to delve deeper very often. It may offend some sensibilities that I will be listing most of the stuff on eBay just as soon as I have time. Those of you who think I should be less grasping should remember that I bought all this stuff new before most of you were born, when In the mean time I'm open to any offers and and will pay/arrange shipping to most countries Otherwise see it on eBay in due course. Jim Bunting - headcase@eclipse.co.uk M.V. Great Gull, Double Locks Hotel, Canal Banks, Exeter Ship Canal, Exeter, Devon, U.K. EX2 6LT. Phone No. 44 (0) 1392 493311 (On Board) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/9f155987/attachment.html From thomas at 0000000.com Thu Oct 22 15:30:34 1998 From: thomas at 0000000.com (Thomas Poff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: L-DOS References: Message-ID: <199810222042.NAA21797@0000000.com> Hi, I always suspected that DOSPLUS was a relative of LDOS since they behaved very similar. Is there any truth in this? Thanks for the history lessons. I was only a kid in the '70s. Thomas From jruschme at exit109.com Thu Oct 22 15:51:25 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: Y2K and immortal executables In-Reply-To: <19981022200254.27908.qmail@hotmail.com> from Max Eskin at "Oct 22, 98 01:02:54 pm" Message-ID: <199810222051.QAA17007@crobin.home.org> > But aren't there many machines that keep track of time and date? I've > heard that credit cards are starting to fail if their expiration date > is 2000. I don't know why all the fuss about the control tower > computers or power plants (all scheduling should be doublechecked by > humans anyway), but I'm sure there may be problems with checks/bills. The problem, as I understand it, is that there are a lot of embedded computers which do date-related calculations that you'd never think of. An example was given on one of the Usenet news groups of an embedded system which controlled the outflow valve of a sewer pipe. It apparently operated by calculating high tide times based on an internal clock/ calendar. It failed Y2K testing. Now think of the results, had this happened "live". Raw sewage dumped at (potentially) low tide. A mess, if not a health hazard. More on-topic is the so-called "Time Dilation Effect" or "Echelin-Crouse Effect" which has been documented on older (and some not-so-old) PCs. Basically, it shows itself as a clock which seemingly jumps ahead on some post-1/1/2000 reboots. Over a few weeks, the clock appears to gain several months of time. In some cases, the system may then stop booting or lose track of ports until the clock is set back to before 1/1/2000. The root cause has been traced to unbuffered real-time clock chips. On a system with such a chip, the BIOS may attempt to read some data during a time when it is being updated and during which a flag value is present, instead of a real date. It only seems to occur post-1/1/2000 because the longer code path taken to calculate the Y2K date may take longer than the grace period the clock chip provides prior to an update. Messy stuff... <<>> From handyman at sprintmail.com Thu Oct 22 16:08:46 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: ARCnet... or Lantastic References: <199810221835.NAA28208@falcon.inetnebr.com> Message-ID: <362F9EDE.74D3@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> > >> 2) Anyone have any old ARCnet cards they wanna get rid of??? > > I also have some arcnet cards and cables and also lots of connectors for them. Free to anyone that pays shipping costs.. If anyone is interested I have some 2MBS Lantastic (Model AE-2) 16 or 8 bit ISA Network cards with software and documentation also the cables for them.. I got them from a reciently upgraded network system. They work great on XT computers and will work on newer systems also. Come-on someone need to connect their old XT's and share printers and hard drives...? You can have them for a few dollars shipping and handling.... Phil... From cmcmanis at freegate.com Thu Oct 22 16:48:31 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <19981022191115.4100.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199810221634.SAA25417@marina.fth.sbs.de> <199810221634.SAA25417@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <199810222142.OAA12958@mxu1.u.washington.edu> At 07:11 PM 10/22/98 +0000, Eric Smith wrote: >... Enough memory to fill a 128-bit address space >would be approximately 3.4x10^38. Making this much memory using current >technology would require more raw material than available in the solar >system. So what number were you using for the "raw material in the solar system?" And what manufacturing technology? Avogadro's Number is 6.02x10^23, a mole of carbon is only 12g. Using electron spin to store a bit as is being done today in quantum computers requires only 12.5 billon tons of carbon to store all of this information. That wouldn't even use up all of Mercury, much less the solar system. --Chuck From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Oct 22 16:51:03 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <199810222142.OAA12958@mxu1.u.washington.edu> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 22, 98 02:48:31 pm Message-ID: <199810222151.OAA09032@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 919 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/85b36985/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 22 17:00:48 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: ARCnet... or Lantastic In-Reply-To: <362F9EDE.74D3@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Phil Clayton wrote: > If anyone is interested I have some 2MBS Lantastic (Model AE-2) 16 or 8 > bit ISA Network cards with software and documentation also the cables > for them.. I got them from a reciently upgraded network system. They > work great on XT computers and will work on newer systems also. Come-on These cards are great for running a coax-based (thinnet) LANtastic network on DOS. I think they are NE2000 compatible too. But I used to use them for all my installations a few years back before they were discontinued. They were reliable and easy to configure (jumpered on board). I have some LANtastic 5.0 software that allows unlimited nodes that I wouldn't mind copying for anyone who gets these. LANtastic is great for setting up a simple, cheap and easy to use peer-to-peer DOS network. Artisoft is up to version 7 now for Windows 95 that allows you to access LANtastic v5.0 and v6.0 servers. If you have to network a legacy DOS system to Win95 then its a good way to go. You can set the DOS machine up as a peered server and access files on it from the Win95 machine and vice versa, and still be able to run apps on the DOS machine. But I abhor Artisoft these days because their customer support sucks, their software (these days) sucks, and they as a company suck. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 14:07:40 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: OT: Modern college educations In-Reply-To: <19981022013743.23624.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Oct 21, 98 06:37:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5330 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/4f59f5de/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 13:42:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981021185725.00a73590@texas.net> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Oct 21, 98 06:57:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1176 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/95380d0f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 16:00:32 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: Hello Again In-Reply-To: <002566A5.005DFDF7.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk" at Oct 22, 98 05:15:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 679 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/aee2489a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 15:53:49 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: OT: Modern college educations In-Reply-To: <199810221206.OAA29599@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Oct 22, 98 01:27:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1679 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/3cafe432/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 15:56:36 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981022094558.0091b570@texas.net> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Oct 22, 98 09:45:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 436 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/d1d0d955/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 17:14:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981022143236.00ae54b0@texas.net> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Oct 22, 98 02:32:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 411 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/75868d1e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 17:26:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981022141715.009254b0@texas.net> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Oct 22, 98 02:17:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3034 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/c058c115/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Fri Oct 23 18:29:43 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: OT: Modern college educations In-Reply-To: <199810212307.QAA27896@mxu3.u.washington.edu> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 21, 98 04:14:06 pm Message-ID: <199810232329.TAA13638@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1004 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/8507fc37/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 22 17:39:04 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810222239.AA17954@world.std.com> < As for the suggestion of using a DEC alpha to emulate a Z-80... I thoug < about it but, those darned Alphas are way too expensive for us hobbist Some of the early slow ones (under 200mhz) are in the used market for under a couple hundred. The other approches witll cost that much or more for superfast memory. < < Tell me more... what are Verilog, Xilinx or Altera? FPGA, Field programable gate arrays. The fast ones are down in the 2.5ns range per gate. < Anyone know if Zilog is going to beef up the Zx80 line???? The z380 series is that. There is already a z382. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 22 17:39:11 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: Building your own Z80 / performance Message-ID: <199810222239.AA18068@world.std.com> < I have never tho't of the Z80 as a slow processor. I interfaced a Z180 < running at 18 mhz to a VGA board recently and using a C compiler was abl < build a machine that acted essentially like a 80286 running at 10 mhz. Inthe early to most of the 80s I've spent a fair amount of time using 6 or 8mhz z80s to blow the doors off of x86 hardware. The z80 is a better IO machine! < Z80 is a pretty cool platform for building an extremely cheap and modern < network computer since it acts a lot like a 16 bit processor. There's < you can do with it with a relatively minimal effort. The z280 is even better, the enhancements it has are pretty decent and it's faster still. Doing your own design in a FPGA is harder than would first appear. Unless your using a known core things like gate delays (race conditions) can bite you. Also some routing paths can be slower than others so you may get far less than the rated Tpd. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 17:28:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: L-DOS In-Reply-To: <199810222042.NAA21797@0000000.com> from "Thomas Poff" at Oct 22, 98 01:30:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 272 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/c4e74e84/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 17:36:23 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: Model 4 I/O ports - found Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 382 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/9d484203/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 17:44:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: OT: Modern college educations In-Reply-To: <199810232329.TAA13638@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Oct 23, 98 07:29:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1578 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/f76bbbbf/attachment.ksh From roblwill at usaor.net Thu Oct 22 17:59:37 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators Message-ID: <199810222301.TAA10436@gate.usaor.net> I'm searching for a TRS-80 emulator for the Model III. I need it to be able to use disk images (such as LDOS), and boot from them. ThAnX, -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 PS>> The only reason that I need the emulator is to make LDOS, and a few other programs for the Model III - not to imitate having an actual III :^) From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 22 18:05:09 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810222305.AA13264@world.std.com> < > It is good design in my opinion to have your address bus twice as wide With a 128 bit wide data bus for a predominatly byte oriented machine all that means is every memory cycle gets you 16bytes at memory cycle speeds. It's a bus bandwidth saving trick as it effectively can give what ever your word time is to put up another 16bytes. This goes back to the core days when memory was slower than the CPU. The penelty is a whopper when all your doing it altering or writing one byte as you have to resort to RMW (read, modify, write) cycle at memory speeds. The alternate is a lot of word/byte selection logic that can slow things down. With the upper speed of available z80s (z180s180) being 33mhz there is plenty of speed so that it can hurry up and wait for the disk, floppy and user. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 17:59:54 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators In-Reply-To: <199810222301.TAA10436@gate.usaor.net> from "Jason Willgruber" at Oct 22, 98 06:59:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 563 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981022/29be40e0/attachment.ksh From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Thu Oct 22 18:21:03 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19981022143236.00ae54b0@texas.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981022182103.009b6c60@texas.net> >> >> Okay, here's another hair-brained project that I am working on..... >> >> I am trying to basically build a 64Bit Z-80 on a board. What I am >> looking for is: Anyone know of any chips that are EXTREMELY simple >> micro-controllers but, work at EXTREMELY high clock rates??? I wanna put > >The first problem : >Very few microcontrollers or microprocessors can be cascaded to increase >the number of bits. There are synchronisation problems, flag problems >(Stick 2 8 bit chips together, you end up with 2 carry flags, neither of >them the true carry flag, and each one only testable by one of the >processors), etc. Answer... I really don't want to cascade them.... Okay.... a 64bit word comes in.... You're using 8bit controllers..... One controller reads the Z-80 instruction that says "move the contents of Register A to Register B" That one interepting controller can either: 1) take a bunch of clock cycles and move the Bytes itself while another controller is working on the next instruction (figuring that the next instruction is not dealing with Reg A or B). OR 2) Tell a bunch of paralleled controllers to do the work..... For math... some controllers and some look up tables.... >> a few on a board with some memory and made a 64-bit Z-80. I'd like the >> processor to operate at 300Mcyc (or faster) clock speeds so, I figure I >> need micro-controllers that operate at about 900 Mcyc to do the work. > >Surely you jest. 100MHz is possible on a homebrew (Double-sided + >wirewrap board). Anything higher is a pain. 900MHz is not the sort of >thing _I'd_ homebrew without a lot of thought. WIRE_WRAP!?!?!?! ICK! I usually pull out my cheapo PCB CAD program...... A little laser-printer transfer plastic and an exacto-knife. >That's apart from the fact that I've never seen a microcontroller that >runs at anything like that speed. 20MHz, sure. 50MHz, maybe. I cannot believe that there can be so many extremely complex processors out there running up to 667Mcyc (Alpha) and there not be any simple controllers with far less transistor counts that match or exceed those speeds. There is no way we can get 600Mcyc clock speeds out of a 10,000,000 transistor chip but can't get at least that out of a 100,000 transistor chip. >> I want a Z-80's features with an Alpha's performance... > >Well, conmsidering that by going to 64 bits you have changed the >instruction set somewhat, and by going to the bus speed you want you have >made it difficult to link memory/peripherals to it (unlike the simple-ish >Z80 bus), just which of the Z80 features are you thinking of retaining >that are _not_ available on the Alpha? Well, my thoughts are that when a bus transaction occurs, the u-processor will send out a word size.... what ever peripherial (sp?) that is at that address will send back a signal telling the processor if it can handle that word size.... OR same idea (but only different).... A processor accesses the address bus and the control bus.... BEFORE the processor places data on the data bus, the peripherial forces a data width. (could be 5 control lines indicating the # of bytes wide). As for the Z-80 vs Alpha features.... I like: 1) I/O ports. I hate the memory map stuff. (yes, I know it is the way things are done now) 0000H - A100H System A200H - C200H Video DA00H - DAFFH IDE HD 1 That sucks (in my opinion). (You like my 16bit addressing? kinda make you yearn for the good 'ol days when you programmed in hex! Like real men! No sir! We didn't have no Visual Basic or C+++++++++! When we wrote a silly like program, it was an accomplishment! (....but they still were silly little programs.)). But I digress.... I like: IO port 0=Keyboard control IO port 1=Keyboard data IO port 2=Device 1 control IO port 3=Device data etc. Your response: "But, what if you need to transfer a big block of data like a NIC? You really need to memory map that." My answer: "Pretend that the IO addresses are memory. With a 128 bit address bus, you'll never run out of spaces!" What else do I like about the Z-80 over the Alpha? (((((((THE Z-BUS!!!)))))))) (not the Z380 bus, that's almost as hosed as the Alpha bus). Do the Z-80 bus but with the data size control lines that I explained above.... (or keep a 64 bit data bus and run a local bus into a 'DMA' (for a lack of a better word)... Wait! A bus mastering device!!!! (<-- better word).) Granted, I have just started looking at the Alpha's architecture but, for some reason, I am finding the registers odd. (Mainly am not used to them.) Wow! sorry, I feel like an evangelist here. Arfon "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 22 18:10:47 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981022143236.00ae54b0@texas.net> (message from Arfon Gryffydd on Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:32:36 -0500) References: <199810221634.SAA25417@marina.fth.sbs.de> <199810221634.SAA25417@marina.fth.sbs.de> <3.0.3.32.19981022143236.00ae54b0@texas.net> Message-ID: <19981022231047.5443.qmail@brouhaha.com> Arfon wrote: > I want a Z-80's features with an Alpha's performance... Which Z-80 features do you have in mind, that aren't available natively on the Alpha? From blakeman at creative-net.net Thu Oct 22 18:29:35 1998 From: blakeman at creative-net.net (Alice Harley-Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: ARCnet... or Lantastic References: Message-ID: <362FBFDE.EDF45442@creative-net.net> Sam Ismail wrote: > But I abhor > Artisoft these days because their customer support sucks, their software > (these days) sucks, and they as a company suck. Bingo....couldn't put it better myself. I used to love Artisoft networking until they got so big for their britches that they think just because big business blindly buys from them that they can treat their customers any way they feel. From roblwill at usaor.net Thu Oct 22 18:30:23 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators Message-ID: <199810222332.TAA16810@gate.usaor.net> Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the file format of the disk image. -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 PS>> I'm also trying to find something that's not shareware (ie: can only emulate Mod I, and can emulate Mod III arfer $45 registration fee). ---------- > From: Tony Duell > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: TRS-80 emulators > Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 6:59 PM > > For what host? xtrs can emulate the M3, and on a linux machine it will > use physical drives, so presumably you can make disks for your real model > 3. xtrs runs under x on just about any unix machine. > > There may be emulators for other platforms that can do the same. > > A good place to start is Tim Mann's TRS-80 page. Search for that with > your favourite search engine (the URL is not to hand at the moment, alas). > > -tony > From cmcmanis at freegate.com Thu Oct 22 18:39:10 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:35 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educations) In-Reply-To: References: <199810232329.TAA13638@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <199810222332.QAA09456@mxu3.u.washington.edu> At 11:44 PM 10/22/98 +0100, Tony wrote: >I would forget silicon. There's no way you're going to be able to make >ICs from scratch (with no tools at all...). You guys don't get it. :-) You play the game like this: 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. 2) Scout for (surface) deposit of iron ore and start mining ore. 3) Using Coal + Ore build Pig Iron 4) Using Pig Iron build picks and shovels to increase your mining efficiency. 5) Build Smelter/Foundry 6) Locate lime and concrete develop cement. 7) Collect Sand and use with cement to build an iron casting apparatus 8) Using the sand casting build a steam boiler and steam engine 9) Using the steam engine and iron casting build metal stamping 10) Using Steam engine and metal stamping build rail road. 11) Start mining below ground and locate Copper. 12) Build a copper foundry. 13) Using metal stamping build wire puller (makes wire) 14) Using iron, and wire build generator. 15) Using generator create electricity. 18) Mine tungsten and build lightbulb. ... First one to a PDP-8 wins :-) From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Thu Oct 22 18:39:08 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Justification of a 128bit address bus.... In-Reply-To: References: <199810222301.TAA10436@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981022183908.009b38f0@texas.net> Back in 1981 when I got my first computer..... My friends all had 4K of memory... We had cassettes and I was a bigshot with a TRS-80 Model II with 64K and a DISC DRIVE. (Yes, all the nerds in my neighborhod worshipped my machine). 10 Mb hard discs were about $2000.00 (and as big as the Model II.) (You ever notice how much I like "( )"???) Then at the end of the 80's one of my teachers got an IBM... He had 640K!!!! That was an incredulous amount! Now I have 64M in one machine and about 10Gb worth of Hard disc space.... I have fought with DOS's 640K limit and the 504Mb size problem of the IDE hard discs and the worst one of all: NOT enough IRQs!!!! Whoever came up with segmented memory and that damned IBM IRQ scheme should be locked in a room and forced to use a x486SX-25 and Win98!!! (FYI: No problems with Y2K, I'm running Linux). Again, I say that it is better to over-kill in the beginning than patch everything later. If you are dealing with a 64 bit data bus, It is nice and easy to just use two data widths (packaging is a bitch but, that can be overcome). Just call me Pastor Arfon of the "If I Had $200,000,000,000.29" Computer Church. "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 18:32:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981022182103.009b6c60@texas.net> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Oct 22, 98 06:21:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2227 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/75f00322/attachment.ksh From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Thu Oct 22 18:47:22 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators In-Reply-To: <199810222332.TAA16810@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981022184722.009b38f0@texas.net> >Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was >going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get >it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the file >format of the disk image. >-- > -Jason Jason, Yes, you too can afford Linux.... IT'S FREE!!!!! Take a few nights and leave your computer downloading... -------OR--------- Spend $1.49 (yes, only 1.5 dollars) and buy the latest version of the distribution of your choice from http://www.linuxmall.com Surely you can afford that. For the emulator, try one of my websites: http://lonestar.texas.net/~arfonrg/trs80/modelI-III/emulators/ (Read the index.txt for a listing) Arfon "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 22 18:47:21 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <199810222142.OAA12958@mxu1.u.washington.edu> (message from Chuck McManis on Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:48:31 -0700) References: <199810221634.SAA25417@marina.fth.sbs.de> <199810221634.SAA25417@marina.fth.sbs.de> <199810222142.OAA12958@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19981022234721.5628.qmail@brouhaha.com> > So what number were you using for the "raw material in the solar system?" > And what manufacturing technology? Avogadro's Number is 6.02x10^23, a mole > of carbon is only 12g. Using electron spin to store a bit as is being done > today in quantum computers requires only 12.5 billon tons of carbon to > store all of this information. That wouldn't even use up all of Mercury, > much less the solar system. I was using a rough estimate of the amount of silicon available in the solar system, assuming that sufficient materials for dopants, oxide, metalization, passivation, lead frames, bond wires, encapsulation, etc. were available as well (probably not a valid assumption). Quantum memory is not yet more than a laboratory curiousity. Even when it becomes practical to store a bit using electron spin, it will still take a large number of additional atoms to allow means of reading and writing the bit. I specifically said "Making this much memory using current technology..." by which I meant 64 or 256 megabit silicon semiconductor DRAMs. 10.14x10^30 256 megabit DRAMs would be required. One 256 megabit DRAM die currently uses about 3000 mm^3 of silicon, for a mass of approximately 7 grams. So the total necessary mass of silicon would be about 71x10^27 kg. Approximately six times as much mass is used for the other materials that comprise a packaged DRAM, so another 426x10^27 kg of appropriate materials would be needed. The mass of the solar system is somewhat more than 2x10^30 kg. However, unless the gas giant planets have a higher than predicted silicon content, the system contains less than 10^26 kg of silicon. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 22 18:54:44 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981022141715.009254b0@texas.net> (message from Arfon Gryffydd on Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:17:15 -0500) References: <362C8A13.42433DEA@sprintmail.com> <3.0.3.32.19981022141715.009254b0@texas.net> Message-ID: <19981022235444.5677.qmail@brouhaha.com> Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > It is good design in my opinion to have your address bus twice as wide as > your data bus. Why? What is the basis for your opinion? Surely you must have some justification in order to make such a sweeping statement. The address and data bus widths are independent parameters. There are current RISC processors with 256-bit data busses. By your reasoning they should have 512-bit address busses. IIRC, 8 (byte width) * 2^512 is more than the number of atoms in the universe, IIRC. How can it possibly be worthwhile to have that large an addressing range? You've succeeded in convincing me that this whole discussion is just a troll. From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Thu Oct 22 19:08:03 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19981022182103.009b6c60@texas.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981022190803.009bbc90@texas.net> >Where are you storing Register A and B? If inside a controller, then >only that controller has access to them, if you're using ECL latches then >you're going to have to make virtually the entire data path outside the >microcontrollers DING DING DING!!!!! Give that man a cupie doll!!! My concept: ______ ___ ______ ___ ______ ___ | u |=| |=| u |=| |=| |=| |= | - |=| m|=| - |=| m|=| |=| |= | c |=| e|=| c |=| e|=| |=| |= | o |=| m|=| o |=| m|=| |=| |= | n |=| |=| n |=| |=| |=| |= |______| =|__|=|______|=|__| =|_____ |=|__|= etc... >Actually, for prototyping wire-wrap is a lot faster to do, and it'll >clock faster as well. It's much easier to get a good ground plane on a >wire-wrapped board than a double-sided PCB > >> A little laser-printer transfer plastic and an exacto-knife. > >You do realise that to get anything like the clock rates you want (or >even a tenth of them) you have to treat the tracks as striplines. This >means the width of the PCB track is critical. Toner transfer may not be >good enough. I know that Track get very touchy at 900Mcyc speeds but, I also knew that it was near impossible for me to find something like what I wanted at those speeds.... Plus, Half the fun of building stuff is learning what will and will not work and then MAKING IT WORK!!! (Pass the hammer please) >> As for the Z-80 vs Alpha features.... I like: >> >> 1) I/O ports. I hate the memory map stuff. (yes, I know it is the way >> things are done now) >> >> 0000H - A100H System >> A200H - C200H Video >> DA00H - DAFFH IDE HD 1 >> >> That sucks (in my opinion). (You like my 16bit addressing? kinda make you > >Why? The idea of having one set of instructions to access both memory and >I/O is actually very nice. Of course having an MMU so you can map out the >I/O and have an entire address space of RAM if you want it makes things >even nicer. Except when it comes to interfacing hardware..... You ask yourself.... Is there a memory chip at this location??? Where was that darned memory break anyway??? To hell with that... memory in memory locations... I/O in I/O locations.... otherwise cats and dogs will be mixing and god forbid that that happen. Seriously, when writing in assembler..... It's nice to see a I/O op code to help me keep straight that this is an I/O operation.... >> Your response: "But, what if you need to transfer a big block of data like >> a NIC? You really need to memory map that." >> >> My answer: "Pretend that the IO addresses are memory. With a 128 bit >> address bus, you'll never run out of spaces!" > >So what you really want is an I/O page and an addressing mode (a bit like >Direct Page on the 6809) that accesses the I/O ports. And also allows >them to be accessed by normal memory reference instructions. You know, that is exactly how I see I/O addresses..... That mem/IO pin as a 17th address bit (except 0000H I/O is not sequentially accessable from the address registers when you hit the end of your instruction memory) Note: on the Model II (TRS-80) there was an option to use page the memory so you could get more than 64K in the thing.... If I remember, it used a Z-80 I/O address as the pager. Damnit! I want a 64bit Model II !!!!!!!! (Running and 500Gcyc of-course). With 8" Laser-Optical drives... and OH OH!!! I want a Thomas-Conrad 100Mbps Fiber ARCnet to connect it to my Linux machines!!!! Oh.... and a Dodge Viper (just so I'll be secure in my manly-ness). Arfon "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Thu Oct 22 19:07:19 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educations) In-Reply-To: <199810222332.QAA09456@mxu3.u.washington.edu> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 22, 98 04:39:10 pm Message-ID: <199810230007.RAA25356@saul1.u.washington.edu> > You play the game like this: > 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. [...] > 18) Mine tungsten and build lightbulb. > First one to a PDP-8 wins :-) I thought the object of the game was to wipe out the other players or be the first to leave... oh, we aren't talking about Civilization? Never mind. :) -- Derek From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 22 19:01:06 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators In-Reply-To: <199810222332.TAA16810@gate.usaor.net> (roblwill@usaor.net) References: <199810222332.TAA16810@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <19981023000106.5725.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Jason Willgruber" wrote: > but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get it). I don't think that I've ever before heard anyone claim that they can't afford Linux, but I guess there's a first time for everything. I don't think you'll get much sympathy. From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Oct 22 19:21:32 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators Message-ID: <001d01bdfe1b$1f50c100$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> >Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was >going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get >it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the file Bzzzt, Linux is free That means you don't need money to get it. Get it? >format of the disk image. >-- > -Jason >(roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#-1730318 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 19:11:14 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981022190803.009bbc90@texas.net> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Oct 22, 98 07:08:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1440 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/3ae55f58/attachment.ksh From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Oct 22 19:28:56 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: L-DOS Message-ID: <002801bdfe1c$1f4b2640$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> >Incidentally, if anyone's interested in LDOS, the source code for (I >think) 6.3.x, along with disk images for the TRS-80 emulators are >availabe from Tim Mann's TRS-80 page. > >I loved LDOS. It is my second-favourite 8 bit OS. My favourite (of >course) is OS-9. > >-tony > You've got to be a real masochist or something, I HAVE TO work with it and I'd give it away for any other OS. Unless you're talking about the COCO version which I heard was pretty good for the platform it was intended; OS-9 is a dinosaur (and I don't mean a lean mean one) To quote one definition I read : OS-9 is a 20 year old OS that is 10 years ahead of it's time (for those who don't get it: it's 10 years outdated relying on reputation) Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 19:16:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981022190803.009bbc90@texas.net> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Oct 22, 98 07:08:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1211 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/6640dff6/attachment.ksh From roblwill at usaor.net Thu Oct 22 19:29:40 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators Message-ID: <199810230032.UAA29689@gate.usaor.net> For some reason, I thought Linux was like $50, or something. Just forget that comment. I'm downloading it now. -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 > > Bzzzt, Linux is free That means you don't need money to get it. Get it? > > >format of the disk image. > >-- > > -Jason > >(roblwill@usaor.net) > > ICQ#-1730318 > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 19:28:21 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: L-DOS In-Reply-To: <002801bdfe1c$1f4b2640$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> from "Francois" at Oct 22, 98 07:28:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 473 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/26f627b5/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 22 20:14:33 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators In-Reply-To: <199810222332.TAA16810@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was > going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get > it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the file Linux? Money? Heheheh. What stone have you've been hiding under junior? LINUX IS FREEE, MAN! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Oct 22 20:22:25 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: L-DOS Message-ID: <009b01bdfe23$983eb9c0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> >> >I loved LDOS. It is my second-favourite 8 bit OS. My favourite (of >> >course) is OS-9. >> > >> >-tony >> > >> You've got to be a real masochist or something, I HAVE TO work with it and >> I'd give it away for any other OS. Unless you're talking about the COCO >> version which I heard was pretty good for the platform it was intended; OS-9 > >Note I said '8 bit OS'. That rules out OS9-68K, etc. I was refering to >the original 6809 version which is pretty darn good. Yes the it fits the description of being 20 years old and 10 years ahead (loosely:) > >-tony > From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 22 20:37:37 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 or 2/5 I/O board wanted Message-ID: <19981023013737.6303.qmail@brouhaha.com> I'm looking for a Lisa 2 or 2/5 I/O board. That's the version of the board with the nicad battery pack; the 2/10 I/O board did not have the battery or supporting electronics. Actually I'd be interested in any spare Lisa parts at all, working or not. Cheers, Eric From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Oct 22 20:48:25 1998 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: FW: H8 computer Message-ID: <199810230148.VAA29943@quartz.netsync.net> Hey folks! I got this from the Heath reflector I am subscribed to. I already have an H8 that I built back in '83 so one of you should get it. I believe the SS-9000 Ron refers to is a Heathkit communications receiver (shortwave rcvr.) which can be controlled by computer. Have to check my old Heathkit catalog file on this. Email Ron directly. >Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:49:43 -0400 >Reply-To: Ronald Oxley >Sender: Heathkit Owners and Collectors List >From: Ronald Oxley >Subject: H8 computer >Comments: cc: heathkit@qth.net >To: HEATH@LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV >X-UIDL: 9c2d5417934b901b38c6fc24968d3523 > >For Sale: > >Heathkit H8 computer system. Includes computer, disk drive, terminal, >printer and software. Included with software is program for controlling >SS-9000 transceiver. Make offer if interested. > >73, >Ron, WM8Z > >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- >To subscribe: listserv@listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: subscribe HEATH yourfirstname yourlastname >To unsubscribe: listserv@listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: signoff HEATH >Archives for HEATH: http://www.tempe.gov/archives >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- > Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From marvin at rain.org Thu Oct 22 20:48:28 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) References: <3.0.3.32.19981022182103.009b6c60@texas.net> <3.0.3.32.19981022190803.009bbc90@texas.net> Message-ID: <362FE06C.4F4AAFA7@rain.org> Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > > >You do realise that to get anything like the clock rates you want (or > >even a tenth of them) you have to treat the tracks as striplines. This > >means the width of the PCB track is critical. Toner transfer may not be > >good enough. > > I know that Track get very touchy at 900Mcyc speeds but, I also knew that > it was near impossible for me to find something like what I wanted at those > speeds.... Plus, Half the fun of building stuff is learning what will and > will not work and then MAKING IT WORK!!! (Pass the hammer please) BTW, I used to prototype boards used in the gigahertz region, and at least for the stuff I made, glass/teflon material was used. I don't know the current price, but a few years ago, it was running upwards of $100 per square foot. Then comes the processing. Yes, you can learn how to make such circuit boards but you would most likely spend upwards of $1000 just for chemistry to get started (and that amount would be considered impossible by some people.) Then controlling the process to maintain trace widths to .0001" or so *of the desired trace width* gets to be fun. Or just spend the $1000 or so plus the hundred dollars or so to get the film made. BTW, did I forget to say it costs a fair amount of money to deal with *just* the circuit boards :)? From roblwill at usaor.net Thu Oct 22 21:06:59 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators Message-ID: <199810230210.WAA21889@gate.usaor.net> I found that out. I was talking to the comp.tech guy at my school last week about getting a copy. He told me he'd be able to get me the new version for $50. Shows just how full of bull @#$% he is. Although he's the same guy that gave me a Tandy 1000TL because the "hard drive was shot". The power cable wasn't connected to it -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: TRS-80 emulators > Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 9:14 PM > > On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > > > Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was > > going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get > > it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the file > > Linux? Money? Heheheh. What stone have you've been hiding under junior? > > LINUX IS FREEE, MAN! > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > From dburrows at netpath.net Thu Oct 22 21:13:17 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Bid list Message-ID: <01d201bdfe2a$ca6d1570$a60b0b0b@p166> I am on a major computer manufacture's surplus equipment bid list. The list that came out today has a lot of equipment that would be of interest to people on this list. I am not interested in making any money from this all that I ask is that all costs will be covered. I will have to pay the shipping from them to me and that will needed to be figured into the final cost. I have just spoken to Bruce Lane about this and he is putting it on his web site. I would also ask that anyone that is interested in putting in a bid just email me with the line of interest and $ they want me to bid per unit. You can bid on any # up to the quantity listed. Please include your Phone # In case of any questions. If there are multiple bids on one item I will try my best to use the time of the bid to choose priority. I have no intention of making any money from this and hope people will understand if I get flooded I may have to cut things off. To give me time please let me know of any interest by Sunday Oct. 25 to give me time to reformat and sort everything for sending in the final bid by noon Monday. Also please keep any phone calls to before 10:00 PM eastern time. I try to keep peace with the wife :) Thanks Dan Burrows 336-376-0468 dburrows@netpath.net From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 22 21:27:04 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Bid list In-Reply-To: <01d201bdfe2a$ca6d1570$a60b0b0b@p166> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Daniel T. Burrows wrote: > I am on a major computer manufacture's surplus equipment bid list. > The list that came out today has a lot of equipment that would be of > interest to people on this list. <...> A little more information such as the equipment being offered would help us decide if there's anything we want :) Also, location (to determine shipping) and Bruce Lane's web page (although I know it, I don't have it off-hand so posting it would be a good start). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Thu Oct 22 21:30:24 1998 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo for sale Message-ID: Please contact the SELLER. I am only passing this along. Reply to: jonathow@mounet.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:32:38 -0400 From: Jonathan Owens Subject: Re: TRS-80 It is a TRS-80 Color Computer, model number 26-3004A. It is in good condition, everything still works the way its supposed to. It has jacks for cassette, serial I/O, and joystick. I think it has 1K of memory, I'd have to check to be sure. I have no additional parts for it. I received it as a gift from my uncle over a decade ago. I've not used it much, it is an interesting little tool. I learned quite a bit about BASIC programming from it! Anyway, I would be interested in selling it. I appreciate your interest. Thank you for your time. Sincerely Jonathan Owens --- Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web page update: 09/28/98] From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 22 21:33:46 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810230233.AA29951@world.std.com> < WIRE_WRAP!?!?!?! ICK! I usually pull out my cheapo PCB CAD program.... < A little laser-printer transfer plastic and an exacto-knife. the best you can do with that is two sided and that might run at 25-40MHz and that's pushing. < I cannot believe that there can be so many extremely complex processors < there running up to 667Mcyc (Alpha) and there not be any simple controll < with far less transistor counts that match or exceed those speeds. < There is no way we can get 600Mcyc clock speeds out of a 10,000,000 < transistor chip but can't get at least that out of a 100,000 transistor < chip. It all that complexity that permits parallelism of functions. The simpler machine are limited by the very direct and limiting propagation delays of gates. < As for the Z-80 vs Alpha features.... I like: < < 1) I/O ports. I hate the memory map stuff. (yes, I know it is the wa < things are done now) Memory mapped ops even with Z80 allow you to do things like OR data with a device or AND data from a device or use the BIT ops to test a bit in the device. None of which the IN or OUT can do directly. when you only have 64kb memory mapped hurts some. When you have 4Gb so what if you give up a meg to memory mapped IO. FYI the PDP-11 is also memory mapped and uses it to very good advantage! < (((((((THE Z-BUS!!!)))))))) (not the Z380 bus, that's almost as hosed a < the Alpha bus). < Do the Z-80 bus but with the data size control lines that I explained < above.... (or keep a 64 bit data bus and run a local bus into a 'DMA' (f < a lack of a better word)... Wait! A bus mastering device!!!! (<-- bett < word).) Zbus give advance status of the transaction to occur, that information is handy for tweeking the memory to make it get there in time instead of wait states. Z80 bus has a high bus bandwidth and poor bus utilization and this shows up when you have DMA peripherls. I'm not bombing z80, I happen to like it and have used it for 20+ years! I'm realist enough to know it's limitations and weaknesses and I can understand why the z380 is the way it is. Personally I happen to like the z280 as the user/system spaces make the 64k limits far easier to work with and also offers some speed with the 16bit bus, cache and a paged MMU while not locking the bus. The Z180 is a good compromize and easy to work with at low speeds, at 20+mhz it's a bear as the world around it has to keep up. It's not like using the z80 at 4 or 6mhz any more when you notice that the decoding dealys and the buffering delays are are a significant part of the system timing. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 22 21:33:53 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810230233.AA00077@world.std.com> < > I know that Track get very touchy at 900Mcyc speeds but, I also knew t I've done RF, at that very touchy part starts at around 50MHz, by 100-200MHz coils are simple lengths and at 470mhz anything longer than 1/4" becomes significant. I did a power amp at 512mhz and the whole tuning and interconnect was all carefully calculated lengths of tracks. Even the board material and thickness was critical! I was lucky with the RF I could use one whole side as a ground plane! Oh, and quarter wave lines at operating clock speeds is a real nasty. < It helps to have some idea of RF and microwave design before attempting < to build a 1GHz circuit. Otherwise you are wasting your time. This is no < something you can fiddle with until it works unless the underlying < design and layout is sound. Like Tony said, guessing will have you making whole new baords for small changes. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 22 21:34:00 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: PDP-10 arch question Message-ID: <199810230234.AA00234@world.std.com> < What machines have had bit pointers? 8051. There may be others. Allison From kyrrin at jps.net Thu Oct 22 21:47:11 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Follow-up: Bid list Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981022194711.0096f100@mail.jps.net> The bid list that Dan Burrows mentioned is available for viewing on my web site. Look for the obvious link from the main page. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at jps.net Thu Oct 22 21:48:46 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Bid list In-Reply-To: References: <01d201bdfe2a$ca6d1570$a60b0b0b@p166> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981022194846.0097f320@mail.jps.net> At 19:27 22-10-98 -0700, you wrote: >A little more information such as the equipment being offered would help >us decide if there's anything we want :) The list is on my page, Sam. It's huge! 330K plus. That's why we decided not to send it directly to the list. The URL for the primary page is in my sig line. It can be reached directly at: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin/bidlist.txt -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Oct 22 21:55:09 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators Message-ID: <001e01bdfe30$8cb06e20$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> There are some distributions that are sold for $50 but they usually include book and phone support plus some sort of installation program Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Jason Willgruber To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 9:11 PM Subject: Re: TRS-80 emulators >I found that out. I was talking to the comp.tech guy at my school last >week about getting a copy. He told me he'd be able to get me the new >version for $50. > >Shows just how full of bull @#$% he is. > >Although he's the same guy that gave me a Tandy 1000TL because the "hard >drive was shot". The power cable wasn't connected to it >-- > -Jason >(roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#-1730318 > >---------- >> From: Sam Ismail >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >> Subject: Re: TRS-80 emulators >> Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 9:14 PM >> >> On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: >> >> > Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was >> > going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to >get >> > it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the >file >> >> Linux? Money? Heheheh. What stone have you've been hiding under >junior? >> >> LINUX IS FREEE, MAN! >> >> Sellam Alternate e-mail: >dastar@siconic.com >> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >--- >> Ever onward. >> >> Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 >> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! >> [Last web site update: 09/21/98] >> > From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Oct 22 22:12:37 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators, Linux distributions In-Reply-To: <001e01bdfe30$8cb06e20$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> from "Francois" at Oct 22, 1998 09:55:09 PM Message-ID: <199810230312.VAA31707@calico.litterbox.com> Yeah, Caldera Linux sells for about $50 with the promise of tech support. Don't believe it. Their e-mail tech support is a sorry joke. The responders don't KNOW anything, and most of the time they don't bother responding at all. Plus the distribution is based on Red Hat, which means *nothing* is where it belongs if you're used to BSDish unix. What this means is if you have older software (say, an older version of Elm) that is pre-redhat it probably won't compile at all. If I had known then what I know now about Caldera, I would have ordered the latest and greatest Slackware cd from Walnut Creek CDROMS, and gone from there. So I'm basically saying DON'T BOTHER WITH CALDERA LINUX. It's far overpriced and the only redeming feature, the tech support is all promise and no substance. I strongly recommend Slackware Linux. No support, but for 35 bucks you get 4 CDs of stuff, and a cool catalog with things like CDROMS of the project gutenburg texts. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From handyman at sprintmail.com Thu Oct 22 10:32:21 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Lantastic References: <362FBFDE.EDF45442@creative-net.net> Message-ID: <362F5005.F17AC019@sprintmail.com> Alice Harley-Blakeman wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > But I abhor > > Artisoft these days because their customer support sucks, their software > > (these days) sucks, and they as a company suck. > > Bingo....couldn't put it better myself. I used to love Artisoft networking until > they got so big for their britches that they think just because big business > blindly buys from them that they can treat their customers any way they feel. I sold Lantastic for many years, I really loved their products in the early 90's..They had great support back then for Technicians like myself and end users. However after Windows 95 came out it put them into a real financial bind. They laid off many of their support staff. It seemed worthless to buy their network software when all it did was Overlay Windows 95 network interface, With the exception of support to older DOS machine on a windows 95 network. I at one time had over 50 Lantastic systems in the field that I supported, now most all are converted to Windows 95 based peer to peer networks.. Another Good company going under because of MicroSoft's strong marketing. Phil.. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 22 22:15:47 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: bit addressing, alignment, bus errors, and VM (was Re: PDP-10 arch question) In-Reply-To: <199810230234.AA00234@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199810230234.AA00234@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19981023031547.7729.qmail@brouhaha.com> Someone wrote: > What machines have had bit pointers? Allison replied: > 8051. There may be others. Bear in mind that on the 8051, bit operations could only be done on certain specific bits of the internal register file. It didn't have true bit pointers, so you couldn't do arithmetic on the pointers. And they could only be used for single bits, not bit fields. Aside from the PDP-10, the IBM Stretch (7030) and the TI 34010 and 34020 graphics processors had fully general bit addressing. The Stretch did require floating point operands to be 64-bit aligned and instructions to be 32-bit aligned. I don't think the 340xx had any data alignment restrictions; I'm not sure about instruction alignment. http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/stretch/ Some unrelated stories about word alignement and virtual memory: The 68K family generally required that instructions be aligned; before the 68020 16-bit and 32-bit data was also required to be aligned. Otherwise an address error exception occurred. On the 68010 (but not the original 68000 (*)), it was possible to write an a address error exception handler to take care of misaligned data. On the 68020 and later, this could be done for instruction fetches as well. Of course, the performance penalty was horrendous. (*) The 68000 did not store enough of the machine state on the stack to allow graceful recovery from bus errors and address errors. The 68010 dumps a huge amount of data to the stack on these errors, 26 words (52 bytes), in a 29 word stack frame affectionately referred to as the 'stack puke'. The RTE instruction is thus able to restart the faulted instruction in midstream, which is known as 'instruction continuation'. The 68040 and 68060, in constrast, used an 'instruction restart' model. On a bus error or address error, they undid any register alterations so that the instruction could be restarted from the beginning when the exception handler returned. Of course, RISC processors generally have simple enough instructions that the instruction restart method can be easily implemented, possibly with the need of some software assistance. Actually on the 68000 if you carefully used an instruction for which the behavior of the bus error on an operand access was well-known, it was possible to recover from the bus error, provided you knew that no other unexpected bus errors could occur. This technique of using a 'probe' instruction was used to implement a crude form of virtual memory on the Lisa. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 22 22:42:48 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Lantastic In-Reply-To: <362F5005.F17AC019@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Phil Clayton wrote: > I sold Lantastic for many years, I really loved their products in the > early 90's..They had great support back then for Technicians like myself > and end users. However after Windows 95 came out it put them into a Ditto. Early on they were great to work with. Slowly their phone tech support required longer and longer waits, until they cancelled it all together and made you pay for it, unless you wanted to wait a couple days for an e-mail response that didn't necessarily help your problem at all. > seemed worthless to buy their network software when all it did was > Overlay Windows 95 network interface, With the exception of support to > older DOS machine on a windows 95 network. I at one time had over 50 That's the only reason I bought 7.0. I needed to still be able to access our DOS servers from Win95 when I bit the bullet and decided to jump from DOS to 95, mainly for the promise of a better platform (what a disappointment that turned out to be). > Lantastic systems in the field that I supported, now most all are > converted to Windows 95 based peer to peer networks.. I still have about 40 installations still running under LANtastic 5.0 and they hum along just fine. Of course they are only two nodes in most cases (a server and a workstation) but it allows me to dial into the workstation using remote control software, then hop across the network to the server and do maintenance on it. In fact, every node in my installs other than my dialup node are configured as servers so I can operate them remotely, helping our clients through programs or to do maintenance, etc. That alone was one of the most outstanding features of LANtastic. I just replaced LANtastic with Novell in my largest installation (20 nodes) and the speed improvement on the server side is phenomenal (of course I expected that, but I've never dealt with Novell before now). Getting the NetBIOS code to work under Novell was a whole different story. I've come to realize LANtastic's implementation was non-standard in a few respects where it really counted (ie. Broadcast Datagrams). Took much re-designing of critical system functions and lots of programming, but just last night we completed the cut-over and its looking good! > Another Good company going under because of MicroSoft's strong > marketing. Phil.. I'd rather have networking tied into the OS, and for what it is, 95 networking is not bad for simple networking in the home or a small office. I think Artisoft just lost sight of its customer and had a poor business strategy. They seem to be focusing all their efforts on computer telephony/voice processing these days (Visual Voice). Did anyone ever use their Sounding Board? Allowed you to send digitized audio over their network for applications like voicemail tied in with e-mail...an early example of VON (Voice Over Network) that was in commercial use and worked, and probably the first commercial example of unified messaging (e-mail/voicemail in one interface). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Oct 22 22:51:53 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Bid list Message-ID: <000e01bdfe38$79b26500$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Can you tell us more about the type of auction this is? Is it one of those auction where you can walk away with a pentium for $5 or is it more of the upper type wher you pretty much have to be within 105 of the retail valu in order to win it? Have you had any experience with this sort of auction? What I'm getting at is I've seen a few things on the list that I like but hve no idea what to bid on them. Also it seems like the terms for payement are very tight 2 days to send the money or you're out how do you propose to proceed? Are you going to send a "big" check for the bid and hope that everybody follow up on their bid? Thank you for the post. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ >I am on a major computer manufacture's surplus equipment bid list. >The list that came out today has a lot of equipment that would be of >interest to people on this list. >I am not interested in making any money from this all that I ask is that all >costs will be covered. I will have to pay the shipping from them to me and >that will needed to be figured into the final cost. I have just spoken to >Bruce Lane about this and he is putting it on his web site. I would also >ask that anyone that is interested in putting in a bid just email me with >the line of interest and $ they want me to bid per unit. You can bid on any ># up to the quantity listed. Please include your Phone # In case of any >questions. >If there are multiple bids on one item I will try my best to use the time of >the bid to >choose priority. I have no intention of making any money from this and hope >people will understand if I get flooded I may have to cut things off. >To give me time please let me know of any interest by Sunday Oct. 25 to give >me time to reformat and sort everything for sending in the final bid by noon >Monday. > >Also please keep any phone calls to before 10:00 PM eastern time. I try to >keep peace with the wife :) >Thanks >Dan Burrows >336-376-0468 >dburrows@netpath.net > > > From marvin at rain.org Fri Oct 23 00:24:39 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Rare 1976 Intel MCS-85 System Design Kit References: <000e01bdfe38$79b26500$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: <36301317.FDB29764@rain.org> I don't know if it is rare, but it certainly sounds unusual. Current price is $27.00 and the reserve has not been met. Another interesting item from ebay. URL is: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=36318754 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 23 00:37:37 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Bid list In-Reply-To: <000e01bdfe38$79b26500$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: The only thing I saw of interest: BURROUGHS 23879724 G 300 VIDEO BOARD ET110 283531-006 G 2 1351 CONT CCA 2993-0666 G 295 WER SUPPLY 3388-7498 G 169 KEYBOARD ASSY AP1351 G 5 PRINTER, AP 1351 B28CPU G 1 CPU E2817B39-HT G 62 CRT ET-1100 G 9 TERMINAL Any ideas? There's also a ton of Apple ][ stuff like keyboards, power supplies, disk drive mechs, etc. Great if you wanted to start a classic Apple ][ restoration and repair business (providing the stuff is all new). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 23 00:40:01 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Rare 1976 Intel MCS-85 System Design Kit In-Reply-To: <36301317.FDB29764@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote: > I don't know if it is rare, but it certainly sounds unusual. Current price > is $27.00 and the reserve has not been met. > > Another interesting item from ebay. URL is: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=36318754 Sounds like the Intel single board development kit for the 8085. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From cmcmanis at freegate.com Fri Oct 23 01:52:08 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Bid list In-Reply-To: References: <000e01bdfe38$79b26500$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: <199810230647.XAA25516@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Its funny, I read through the list, crossing my fingers and hoping for a PDP-8 core stack, and 90% of it is PC junk. Then I kind of laughed because of course that stuff will probably be "collectable" for my daughter. Assuming she decides to collect computers. Although if history is any measure then she'll probably collect Pentium II machines since that will be the "hot" machine that she can't afford (stuck with a measly 75Mhz P5 :-) Another factiod registered which is PC collecting is going to be *much* more of an art than say mini-computer collecting is because the technology is changing soooo quickly. In case you haven't noticed there is a certain temporal component in the PC compatible space where the hardware, and more importantly the software, are tied together at their release dates. "Visual BASIC, Win 3.1, Borland C++, 486/66" they make a set. Use this stuff on a Pentium and it won't use half the features, use it on a 386 and it won't run acceptably. And how "long" was the 486 PC window? Perhaps 3-5 years? Compare that with the utter contempt with which people treat 486 motherboards (3 for $5.00 at Weird Stuff Warehouse) and you realize that these things are headed for landfill big time. Along about 2010 or 2015 and trying to put together a representative 486 system from the "early 90's" is going to be damn near impossible. Look at the PDP-8's which spanned 15 years of production and are now pretty difficult to get hold of. I don't know if I should laugh or buy an old Dell 486 box and wrap it up in plastic and dessicant and save it for 20 years. --Chuck From rax at warbaby.com Fri Oct 23 03:05:52 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Book Source Message-ID: A while back, someone posted a great source for used and out of print books. I've lost the URL and can't remember the name - could someone please repost it? Thanks R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. From gram at cnct.com Fri Oct 23 03:33:03 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: L-DOS References: Message-ID: <36303F3F.5D36873D@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > Incidentally, if anyone's interested in LDOS, the source code for (I > think) 6.3.x, along with disk images for the TRS-80 emulators are > availabe from Tim Mann's TRS-80 page. > > I loved LDOS. It is my second-favourite 8 bit OS. My favourite (of > course) is OS-9. My favorite 8-bit OS is OS-9. My favorite single-user OS (no matter how many bits) is LS-DOS, closely followed by LDOS. (Roy did have some optimisations for the better Model 4 hardware). I've pulled everything available from Tim's page, and will build a proper mirror once I have a static IP address so my pages can be on my machines instead of my ISP's. (Plus put up the TRS-80 Model 2/16/12/6000 stuff -- a great series woefully under-represented on the Web). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Fri Oct 23 03:54:29 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators References: <001e01bdfe30$8cb06e20$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: <36304445.86566496@cnct.com> Francois wrote: > > There are some distributions that are sold for $50 but they usually include > book and phone support plus some sort of installation program I myself regularly buy Red Hat and Caldera commercial distribution packages. It generally saves (at 33.6 Kbps) several days time in the acquisition, not counting the Gb or so of spare disk to hold it during installation and testing. (At the moment I'm in my fourth day of downloading SuSE from the gatech mirror -- there have been a few interuptions, some from my ISP flaking out, some from my father-in-law fiddling with the extension phone). I bought the first CD distribution of Linux I saw, Yggdrasil, the minute I found it. I've been using Red Hat since the Halloween release. They beat the hell out of making floppy images, as I'd been doing before, as hard disk space still cost actual money, not like now. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 23 05:13:50 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810230854.KAA24346@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> BTW: LDOS - I have a Modell III with external HD - hasn't >> there been an LDOS to boot from ? (I'm not the deep TRS guy). > The only "official" operating system for a Model III with a hard > drive _was_ LDOS. Also for the Model One. TRSDOS 6, later called > LS-DOS, was written by Logical Systems for the Model 4. (There > was also a version of LS-DOS for the Model II/12 series [8" drives] > but all of my copies were lost years back in a move, along with a > lot of other material related to those systems -- as Ben Franklin > once said, three moves equals one fire). Jep, but what about booting ? The only LDOS I have needs still to boot from FD. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 23 05:13:50 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810230854.KAA24395@marina.fth.sbs.de> > As for a 64Bit data bus, there is no reason for a 64bit instruction but, > but with 64bits of data, you can do a hell-of-alot with video and signal > synthesis (i.e. sound). If you want to wrangle 64 Bit data you need to have acording operations - Wasn't it your intention to create a 64 Bit uP ? So, without a 64 Bit ALU and instructions to handle 64 Bit this Z80 will still be an 16 Bit uP just with an 64 Bit data bus. And for the Speed thing: it would be way better if the data bus is extended to 128 Bit, to reduce Memory access. With a 64 Bit bus in a 32 Bit CPU the theoretical bus load is just half. Or simpler: the CPU can be twice as fast with the same memory. > >And now tell me where you need 128 Bit address ? Just in > >case, even to fill a 64 Bit memory you need 4 GIG of > >mem thats just 4 grand ... and 128 Bit memory used ... > >oh unly 16,000,000,000,000 Dollar ... gee rich man > It is good design in my opinion to have your address bus twice as wide as > your data bus. Just tell me why ? Because it has been the tame with old 8 Bit uPs ? Come on thats just the stupid 'thats the way it always has been' idea. Address bus shuld be a) as wide as needed and b) if possible not exeeding the Size of the basic data unit. For a) just tell me where you need more than 4 Gig, or better where you need _way_ more than 4 Gig, because just 4 or 10 times this address space is easyer done with paging methods (wait for b)). And for b) you need special logic to perform address calculation, you can't hold one address in one regular register, you need more silicon to implement the adressing logic, adress calculation and (hidden) adressing register - you also need an additional ALU. > If you keep thinking like "you'll need $16,000,000,000.00 > in memory for that address size" you'll do the same stupid thing as: If you don't need it don't spent the silicon. > Micro$oft ("640K is more than enough for anyone"), Be carefull, now you're entering historical teretorry. MS-DOs was designed to use the full 1 Meg address space of the 8086/88. And could could well boot with something like 900 and more K user mem available. The 'Barrier' (640 or what ever) was given to DOS by the BIOS of the respective machine. And the PC-Bios had just to obey the CGA memory. > old programmers ("year 2000 is 20 years away. > This stuff will be obsolete by then"), You are just talking to one of them - and FYI we continue to use systems with two digit years and they are Y2K ready :) > and let us not forget Intel with their screwy memory addressing > schemes on their pre-X386s. Again, please think a bit - the x86 segmentation is a real great atempt to give - give more than 64 K Mem to a 16 Bit uP - allow an easy relocatable memory sceme - give a reliable memory base to a multi user/multi tasking OS I never had a problem with that - in fact I was realy happy about it (its just a kind of 16:16 base/offset addressing - remember /390 machines still have only one adressing base+offset - a proof for my belive, that base/offset is the only adressing mode needet anywhere). All the ranting about x86 are senseless and I often found (after taking out all the me-to-dont-like-it people) that these are the same guys who cant go well with 9 Bit machines or can't work with 7 Bit lines. > Think ahead! It wouldn't cost that much more or requrie much > more effort to add a few bits to the address bus. Just remember b) you NEED more effort, especialy things that don't fit into your standard modell. Just think, why was the Z80 so much better than the 8080 ? The 8080 implemented 16 Bit calculations, as needed for adress manipulation only as a kind of 'add-on', while the Z80 was more like a 16 Bit CPU. And here is also your additional effort visible - to give the flexibility to handle a address you need to implement 128 Bit things and operation - or you end up with a methods like the 64180 MMU or the x86 segmentation Or worse things like the page registers on the 65816 (I love the CPU, but I still think they should have used a x86 like sceme). And if your thinking about MMUs to expand a 64 Bit adress to 128, you just cut the adressrage down to 64 Bit, since external address enhancements are no design detail of a CPU. > Wow, I didn't intend for that to sound as sarcastic... No offence intended > Hans. Not taken - I still hope you will see it :) > As for the suggestion of using a DEC alpha to emulate a Z-80... I thought > about it but, those darned Alphas are way too expensive for us hobbist. Please ? An Alpha board with CPU is only a bit more expensive than a PC board with an equal Pentium. At least thats the street price over here in Munich - we have some PC part shops that are also selling Alpha boards and CPUs right aut of the blister. > Tell me more... what are Verilog, Xilinx or Altera? FPGA/GAL designs (and languages) some of them I think are already below the 3ns range. AFAIK you could aquire the Z80 design already as a FPGA description - add whatever you need and dump it into the FPGA. With 3nS you are able to get a 33 MHz Z80 right out of the box. Just don't forgett, a ready to use Z180 is 25% faster :) If you still want do try, you should realy dig into FPGA stuff (thanks Allison for the idea) here you get a nice sandbox to try your designs. And most of the evaluation kits are like for free. One more thing, when you want to design a 64 Bit CPU you will get something like 200 pins, so just forgett about any kind of DIL. > Anyone know if Zilog is going to beef up the Zx80 line???? Faster 180s and of course the 380s. But Zilog has to build things that will sell, so they are more into integrating special I/O devices than more CPU power. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From gram at cnct.com Fri Oct 23 04:18:43 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) References: <3.0.3.32.19981022182103.009b6c60@texas.net> <3.0.3.32.19981022190803.009bbc90@texas.net> Message-ID: <363049F3.EA8E827D@cnct.com> Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Note: on the Model II (TRS-80) there was an option to use page the memory > so you could get more than 64K in the thing.... If I remember, it used a > Z-80 I/O address as the pager. To the best of my recollection, the only serious memory paging that Tandy ever did with the Model II series was the 16k (each) in the Arcnet and hard disk boards and the 32k in the graphics board. Some other vendors went further with it, but as a Tandy customer support rep, I never saw them in person. The Model 4 was a different story. > Damnit! I want a 64bit Model II !!!!!!!! (Running and 500Gcyc of-course). > With 8" Laser-Optical drives... and OH OH!!! I want a Thomas-Conrad > 100Mbps Fiber ARCnet to connect it to my Linux machines!!!! Won't do you any good unless you also build (and program) the custom Arcnet cards, since Model II Arcnet spoke only to Model II Arcnet, even though the hardware and connection layers were compatible with Datapoint and (later on) PC Arcnet systems. I installed and supported Model II Arcnet, later on I installed Vianet based on Arcnet hardware for PCs. The wires and hubs and signals were the same, but the machines talked different languages. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Fri Oct 23 04:52:13 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) References: <199810230854.KAA24346@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <363051CD.1754DBB6@cnct.com> Hans Franke wrote: > > >> BTW: LDOS - I have a Modell III with external HD - hasn't > >> there been an LDOS to boot from ? (I'm not the deep TRS guy). > > > The only "official" operating system for a Model III with a hard > > drive _was_ LDOS. Also for the Model One. TRSDOS 6, later called > > LS-DOS, was written by Logical Systems for the Model 4. (There > > was also a version of LS-DOS for the Model II/12 series [8" drives] > > but all of my copies were lost years back in a move, along with a > > lot of other material related to those systems -- as Ben Franklin > > once said, three moves equals one fire). > > Jep, but what about booting ? The only LDOS I have needs > still to boot from FD. Well, you could program your own boot ROM I suppose. There was never any support for booting a III direct from hard disk. And the Model 4 "boot from hard disk" option was never what I'd call trustworthy -- among other things, it was very picky about just how the hard disk was laid out -- I found it easier to use boot floppies, as I had LS-DOS, Model III LDOS and CP/M+ on one 12 Mb hard disk. The Model III came out over two years before there was an official Tandy hard disk for it -- and the Model III boot ROM as a result didn't know how to address circuits that hadn't been designed yet. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From jrice at texoma.net Fri Oct 23 05:26:28 1998 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: DEC Hardware Message-ID: <363059D4.8353BC9E@texoma.net> I'm going to look at some DEC hardware, a PDP-11/34 and some VAX equipment. I'm not into DEC's so I thought I'd look at it as possibly a rescue setup. This company is going to want some residual value payment. how much is this stuff worth? It was taken out of service a couple of months ago. I'll try to get a list of what's available. It's located about 60 miles from Dallas. I might want one of the Vax boxes, but I don't want any PDP hardware. Anyone interested? James From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 23 07:31:46 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810231112.NAA18899@marina.fth.sbs.de> > That sucks (in my opinion). (You like my 16bit addressing? kinda make you > yearn for the good 'ol days when you programmed in hex! Like real men! No > sir! We didn't have no Visual Basic or C+++++++++! When we wrote a silly > like program, it was an accomplishment! (....but they still were silly > little programs.)). But I digress.... > I like: > IO port 0=Keyboard control > IO port 1=Keyboard data > IO port 2=Device 1 control > IO port 3=Device data > etc. Gee fine - back to the time when the CPU had to do any little pice of sh.. by itself - never asked why Mainframes can handle so much more date with the same tecnologie than PCs ? go back and learn. > Your response: "But, what if you need to transfer a big block of data like > a NIC? You really need to memory map that." > My answer: "Pretend that the IO addresses are memory. With a 128 bit > address bus, you'll never run out of spaces!" So waht now ? memory maped or I/O space There is ABSOLUTLY no sense in building a super fast CPU and then spending all time in I/O polling (or interrupt handling) Lets get real again. Gruss H. P.S.: in 1986 I had a 100 MHz Turing machine running - I bet it was one of the fastest computers at this time - Fast and Useless. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 23 07:31:46 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Hello Again Message-ID: <199810231112.NAA19183@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> In a recent telephone conversation with Tony Duell, he mentioned that >> someone (was it Kevan?) was thinking of doing a VCF in the UK. To that > I think you missed his posting where he said he had received only 5 > replies. So it looks like a non-stater. Gee - this is not an option. >> person: I am definitely prepared to support you. I can provide plenty of >> computers for exhibiting; I can talk on some suitable subject; I am >> prepared to chip in a fair amount of dosh to get this show on the road. > I'll also provide machines and a talk if anything comes of this. I will haul up one trunk of machines. > Alas I can't provide much cash at the moment... Hmm maybe s.o. should look out for a place (not nessecary as fancy as the Santa Clara Convention Centre :), and when we have actual numbers, we might try to put up the money. I don't have much availabe either, but I thing we can find a solution. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 23 07:47:13 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college education Message-ID: <199810231127.NAA28424@marina.fth.sbs.de> > You play the game like this: > 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. > 2) Scout for (surface) deposit of iron ore and start mining ore. > 3) Using Coal + Ore build Pig Iron > 4) Using Pig Iron build picks and shovels to increase your > mining efficiency. > 5) Build Smelter/Foundry > 6) Locate lime and concrete develop cement. > 7) Collect Sand and use with cement to build an iron casting apparatus > 8) Using the sand casting build a steam boiler and steam engine > 9) Using the steam engine and iron casting build metal stamping > 10) Using Steam engine and metal stamping build rail road. > 11) Start mining below ground and locate Copper. > 12) Build a copper foundry. > 13) Using metal stamping build wire puller (makes wire) > 14) Using iron, and wire build generator. > 15) Using generator create electricity. > 18) Mine tungsten and build lightbulb. > ... > First one to a PDP-8 wins :-) What about creating a Game ? Of course all Graphics has to be ASCII :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 23 07:47:13 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:36 2005 Subject: Rare 1976 Intel MCS-85 System Design Kit Message-ID: <199810231127.NAA28528@marina.fth.sbs.de> > I don't know if it is rare, but it certainly sounds unusual. Current price > is $27.00 and the reserve has not been met. > Another interesting item from ebay. URL is: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=36318754 Go OFF it's MINE ! :))) In fact, it's not realy rare, zillions have bin made, but I still miss it. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 23 07:47:13 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: PDP-10 arch question Message-ID: <199810231127.NAA28645@marina.fth.sbs.de> > < What machines have had bit pointers? > 8051. There may be others. Wasn't the 432 able to adress whole Objectspace as Bits ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 23 07:47:13 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators Message-ID: <199810231127.NAA28721@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was >> going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get >> it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the file > Linux? Money? Heheheh. What stone have you've been hiding under junior? > LINUX IS FREEE, MAN! Linix is free, but it still costs money. You need a computer, need a CD, need other HW. You need a Distribution CD And a little time. Shure, you can just get it over the Web ... and pay $$$ just for transmission ... and the needed time. And after thet you need time to install ... TIME IS MONEY. Linux is free but not without cost. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk Fri Oct 23 08:07:57 1998 From: Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Booklovers: Danger! Message-ID: <002566A6.0047FC99.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Rax (Sorry, can't remember your real name) wanted to know, and it seems I kept the original message. Philip. ---------------------- Forwarded by Philip Belben/PTech/PowerGen on 23/10/98 13:10 --------------------------- classiccmp@u.washington.edu on 06/09/98 06:29:19 To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu cc: (bcc: Philip Belben) Subject: Booklovers: Danger! Maybe I shouldn't post this.... O wot'th'ell, here goes. I have discovered recently a very dangerous on-line book service, which, in my *very* humble opinion, just beats the bloody tar out of the 'major' ones.. (Amazon, Barnes, etc). Some of you Listmembers may already be aware of these folks.. if not, the URL is; www.abebooks.com I'm *definitely* in Big $$$ Trouble. I have a very large library, around 10K volumes, journals, periodicals, papers... collected over many years. A lot of it is old, wierd, rare, fringe-science, technology, engineering, computing, etc. Now I find ABE (American Book Exchange) and they've got titles I've been searching for for *ages*... including a book I read in 4th Grade and never heard of since... oh dear: most of the booksellers on ABE take credit cards... damn, damn, damn...! I've already found over $1K of stuff I must have.. NOW! Anyway, I hereby disclaim and hold myself inurred and harmless from anyone who goes bankrupt because I turned them on to ABE. Just try searching with Van Nostrand or Wiley or Howard Sams entered in the 'Publisher' slot... or pdp-11 in the 'keywords' section.... I'm in **trouble** ! Cheers ;} John -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: RFC822.TXT Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1727 bytes Desc: Text - character set unknown Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/cb8f4df5/RFC822.obj From dburrows at netpath.net Fri Oct 23 07:05:42 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Bid list Message-ID: <00b601bdfe80$414bd640$a60b0b0b@p166> >Can you tell us more about the type of auction this is? Sealed bid >Is it one of those auction where you can walk away with a pentium for $5 YES On last weeks bid I won a VAX4000-300 for $82. a bunch if DIgiboards for $5.00 ea. Sorry everyone that has commercial value to me. >is it more of the upper type wher you pretty much have to be within 105 of >the retail valu in order to win it? Not at all. This equipment is from a new division that did not have a surplus sales group. Tha format was different than the usual bid lists so I called my rep. about last weeks list and they are hoping to get 5 cents on the dollar. Anything that does not sell will be going to be recycled as they are very carefull about EPA regs. >Have you had any experience with this sort of auction? I have been doing business with them for over a year. The regular weekly bids I rarely get good deals on - about 70% to 80% of wholesale are typical. The special bids like these are where I make out. I will admit that this equipment is not the usual type they offer - remember it is a newly acquired division. >What I'm getting at is I've seen a few things on the list that I like but >hve no idea what to bid on them. I would be sure to be over the scrap value (figure 50 to 75 cents a pound is scrap value) but based on the bid I won last week not more than 5% of wholesale new. >Also it seems like the terms for payement are very tight 2 days to send the >money or you're out how do you propose to proceed? Are you going to send a >"big" check for the bid and hope that everybody follow up on their bid? I still do not know why they put that in there. I actually have 15 days from shipment to pay for it. provided I am not way above my theoretical credit limit and YES I am hoping that everyone will be following through because I will be stuck with the equipment if they don't. I have had some long discussions with a couple of people on this list about this and was informed that most everyone is quite honorable. Another note of interest I have only gotten the response for 1 of last weeks bids so far. It had to be in on monday and I got the response thursday (1 day late). Tuesdays bids were supposed to be released thursday. When I get the response to those bids I will let you know. Don't worry if I think any bids are to high I will let you know. I can only do this however on equipment that I am familiar with. For shipping considerations due to the amount I won on last weeks bid I have told them to change it to truck and gave them my account info for a major truck line, This is the first time I have had to change to truck shipping. Also for figuring shipping I am in North Carolina. Dan Burrows 336-376-0468 dburrows@netpath.net From erd at infinet.com Fri Oct 23 07:46:43 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college education In-Reply-To: <199810231127.NAA28424@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Oct 23, 98 12:48:13 pm Message-ID: <199810231246.IAA24424@user2.infinet.com> > > > You play the game like this: > > 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. . . . > > 14) Using iron, and wire build generator. > > 15) Using generator create electricity. > > 18) Mine tungsten and build lightbulb. > > ... > > First one to a PDP-8 wins :-) Hey! I though about this for a grad project in History - build a computer using Roman technology (metallurgy, etc., since the Romans didn't have electricity). The point was to prove that with sufficient relevant information, primitive computer technology *could have been* built with materials at hand. I wasn't too sure about transistor manufacture, though. In any case, it would have only been a demonstration of the technology; building a PDP-8 from scratch is clearly a monumental task. > What about creating a Game ? > Of course all Graphics has to be ASCII :) Not on a PDP-8. There was a vector graphics board set. It used an oscilloscope for a display tube. As was proven in a patent lawsuit filed against Nintendo, video games did exist before Pong, just not in the living rooms of America. -ethan From dburrows at netpath.net Fri Oct 23 07:28:34 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Bid list Message-ID: <010201bdfe83$2af93d30$a60b0b0b@p166> > >The only thing I saw of interest: > > BURROUGHS > >23879724 G 300 VIDEO BOARD ET110 $5 >283531-006 G 2 1351 CONT CCA ??? don't know what it is >2993-0666 G 295 WER SUPPLY $5 to $8 >3388-7498 G 169 KEYBOARD ASSY $5 >AP1351 G 5 PRINTER, AP 1351 If this is a complete printer $10 to $15 >B28CPU G 1 CPU >E2817B39-HT G 62 CRT $5 considering that they will have to pay to dispose of to meet EPA regs. >ET-1100 G 9 TERMINAL $5 to $10 Disposal costs as above. > >Any ideas? I put what I would bid by each item I could guess. I am not familiar with Burroughs equipment. Remember these are EACH prices. >There's also a ton of Apple ][ stuff like keyboards, power supplies, disk >drive mechs, etc. Great if you wanted to start a classic Apple ][ >restoration and repair business (providing the stuff is all new). That is why I thought this would be of interest to this list. If you note in the header of the list it is all in good condition. This historically means that it is surplus from a repair depot. The other condition code they have had in the past are as follows (pasted from the weekly bid list) CD CODE "N" = Never Used With No Factory Warranty. "G" = Used Material In Good Condition. "U" = Unknown functionality, RETURNS will be allowed ONLY if MISSING MAJOR components. "D" = Defective material with no returns allowed Dan From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 23 09:23:40 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa Message-ID: <199810231304.PAA17402@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> You play the game like this: >>> 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. > . > . > . >>> 14) Using iron, and wire build generator. >>> 15) Using generator create electricity. >>> 18) Mine tungsten and build lightbulb. >>> ... >>> First one to a PDP-8 wins :-) > Hey! I though about this for a grad project in History - build a computer > using Roman technology (metallurgy, etc., since the Romans didn't have > electricity). Just what do you want ? The Z1 was _complete_ echanical and was build by hand on a kitchen table - and used anything also known from modern computers, including binary floating point. >> What about creating a Game ? >> Of course all Graphics has to be ASCII :) > > Not on a PDP-8. There was a vector graphics board set. It used an > oscilloscope for a display tube. As was proven in a patent lawsuit > filed against Nintendo, video games did exist before Pong, just not > in the living rooms of America. Stop, my question was not about greating a game on a PDP. The intention was to build a computer game where building a PDP (or something like that) is the goal ... Such a basic build up an economy game like Civilisation etc. But instead of geting welthier all the time you have to build up a PDP as soon as possible Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From erd at infinet.com Fri Oct 23 08:15:43 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: PDP-11/70 rescued! In-Reply-To: <36301317.FDB29764@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Oct 22, 98 10:24:39 pm Message-ID: <199810231315.JAA24826@user2.infinet.com> The Computer Quonset Hut has its first aquisition - a pair of PDP-11/70's with peripherals. A former employer of mine managed to be in the right place and the right time, consulting for the same guys he used to consult with in the 1970's, and we nabbed the machines the week they were decommissioned. My biggest disappointment is that the CPUs have the corporate front panel, not the programmer's front panel. Anyone have a spare front panel they want to trade? ;-) The haul includes: 2 PDP-11/70 CPUs w/4Mb MOS memory (lots of 16K DRAMs) 3 System Industries magtape drives (StorageTek 1150's inside?) 5 System Industries SI9900/SI9900R interfaces (SMD<->Massbus) 7 Fujitsu Eagle (470Mb) SMD disks (minus a few cables). Given the naming scheme (COLA, COLB, COLC, COLD, COLE) that they used to employ (Columbus A...), I suspect that I have all the disks and two of the remaining CPUs out of a once larger installation. This is *way* more equipment than I need. I'm not cramped for room yet (the Hut is 32'x48'), but I can see it happening down the road. If anyone has an interest in SI hardware, I have lots of it. Please contact me if you are interested in some kind of swap arrangement. I might also be amenable to trading spares, not just entire racks. While I don't regret rescuing this stuff, I have no clue how long it will be until I could ever power this stuff on. The Hut has its own 60 Amp feed seperate from the house, but 110/220, no three-phase power. I suppose I could purchase/rig-up a 220V<->3Ph mechanical converter, but I'd be more likely to do my own load balancing on the two phases that I have and bypass the internal DEC power sequencers. Does anyone out there have any experience with powering up an 11/70 in a non-commercial environment? Fortunately, I have smaller, cheaper-to-run PDP-11's for day-to-day stuff. I'd hate to pay for this thing 24x7. The cabinet is labelled at 24A/Ph, making me think that one CPU wants 8000W of power, but that must be a full boat with some added safety margin. In any case, at roughly $0.08/kWH, $15/day to power on, or $450/month, cooling notwithstanding. I wouldn't have enough juice in the Hut to run it anyway, not if that load is typical. My goal over the next couple of years is to fix this place up enough to set up a by-appointment-only museum. Maybe I can get something going by mid-next year. For the curious, my collection leans towards 1970's micros and DEC hardware with a liberal sprinkling of 68K. -ethan P.S. ISTR that PDP-11/70's and VAX-11/750's use the same hex-height 39-bit ECC memory boards. Is this true? I know that 750's had 256K and 1Mb boards (and eventually 4Mb boards), but every jump up required a new memory controller (and backplane wires ;-) What's the scoop on the 11/70? From bwish at pcfa.org Fri Oct 23 08:28:41 1998 From: bwish at pcfa.org (Brett Wish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators In-Reply-To: <199810231127.NAA28721@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: > > Linix is free, but it still costs money. > You need a computer, need a CD, need other HW. > You need a Distribution CD > And a little time. > Shure, you can just get it over the Web ... and pay $$$ > just for transmission ... and the needed time. > And after thet you need time to install ... > > TIME IS MONEY. > > Linux is free but not without cost. > ** OR ** You could get someone to burn you a CD copy, or find someone willing to give away their old distribution CD. I was able to get a copy of RedHat 5.1 burned for $5. I'm sure you could find someone fairly easily who would do something similar. I ran across a web page that listed people with old distribution CD's who would either give them to you or let you borrow them. From erd at infinet.com Fri Oct 23 08:31:59 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa In-Reply-To: <199810231304.PAA17402@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Oct 23, 98 02:24:40 pm Message-ID: <199810231331.JAA25077@user2.infinet.com> > > > Hey! I though about this for a grad project in History - build a computer > > using Roman technology (metallurgy, etc., since the Romans didn't have > > electricity). > > Just what do you want ? The Z1 was _complete_ echanical and > was build by hand on a kitchen table - and used anything > also known from modern computers, including binary floating > point. While I didn't know about Zuse at the time, I was thinking about Babbage and the (now disproved) notion that pre-20th-C. technology wasn't up to the task of building computers, even if they knew how to do it. Not being a mechanical engineer, my thoughts drifted over to an electronic computer rather than mechanical. > >> What about creating a Game ? > >> Of course all Graphics has to be ASCII :) > > Stop, my question was not about greating a game on a PDP. > The intention was to build a computer game where building > a PDP (or something like that) is the goal ... Such a basic > build up an economy game like Civilisation etc. But instead > of geting welthier all the time you have to build up a PDP as > soon as possible Ah! I misunderstood. That's a cool idea. There is an open source version of Civilization floating around. Perhaps that could be adapted, not that we couldn't steal a start from somewhere else... My Lord Hammurabi, I beg to report to you that this year we have produced 1,000 transistors and 400 rallods of copper wire. How much copper do you want smelt this year? -ethan From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Oct 23 08:40:12 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa In-Reply-To: <199810231331.JAA25077@user2.infinet.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 23, 98 09:31:59 am Message-ID: <199810231340.GAA24551@saul7.u.washington.edu> > Ah! I misunderstood. That's a cool idea. There is an open source > version of Civilization floating around. Perhaps that could be > adapted, not that we couldn't steal a start from somewhere else... > > My Lord Hammurabi, I beg to report to you that this year we > have produced 1,000 transistors and 400 rallods of copper > wire. > > How much copper do you want smelt this year? I don't know about that -- it would make the game rather difficult. Rats have eaten 320 transistors. Do you want to buy or sell stock? Or maybe that should be: Surplus shops have taken 215 transistors. Do you want to buy or sell source code? -- Derek From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 23 08:43:31 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: PDP-11/70 rescued! Message-ID: <981023094331.222000ac@trailing-edge.com> >While I don't regret rescuing this stuff, I have no clue how long it will be >until I could ever power this stuff on. The Hut has its own 60 Amp feed >seperate from the house, but 110/220, no three-phase power. I suppose I >could purchase/rig-up a 220V<->3Ph mechanical converter, You don't need three-phase for the equipment you got - if you look at the DEC power controllers, they just split out the three phase into three 120VAC circuits which power the individual boxes. Especially as you have MOS instead of core memory, 30 Amps will be plenty for a CPU, memory, and a couple of Fuji Eagles. Some big Massbus disks (and their Memorex and CDC mechanical equivalents) do need three-phase for the drive motor, but I didn't see these in your list. >P.S. ISTR that PDP-11/70's and VAX-11/750's use the same hex-height 39-bit >ECC memory boards. Is this true? Assuming you have the DEC MK11 memory boxes, yes this is true. There are also third-party memory boards available for 11/70's; my favorite are the board sets that pop into the 11/70's backplane and give you 4 Megs of cache memory, so there's no need for memory boxes! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 23 11:02:05 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa Message-ID: <199810231442.QAA14505@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> Ah! I misunderstood. That's a cool idea. There is an open source >> version of Civilization floating around. Perhaps that could be >> adapted, not that we couldn't steal a start from somewhere else... >> My Lord Hammurabi, I beg to report to you that this year we >> have produced 1,000 transistors and 400 rallods of copper >> wire. >> How much copper do you want smelt this year? Wow - thats it - I 've been already eaten up by megagraphics. So, anything I could Imagine was to reduce graphics to ASCII ... but Yo thats it Hamurabi ! > I don't know about that -- it would make the game rather difficult. > Rats have eaten 320 transistors. > Do you want to buy or sell stock? > Or maybe that should be: > Surplus shops have taken 215 transistors. > Do you want to buy or sell source code? Pfffft. Go ahead. thats great! Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 23 11:02:04 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators Message-ID: <199810231442.QAA15736@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> Linix is free, but it still costs money. >> You need a computer, need a CD, need other HW. >> You need a Distribution CD >> And a little time. >> Shure, you can just get it over the Web ... and pay $$$ >> just for transmission ... and the needed time. >> And after thet you need time to install ... >> TIME IS MONEY. >> Linux is free but not without cost. > ** OR ** > You could get someone to burn you a CD copy, or find someone willing to > give away their old distribution CD. I was able to get a copy of RedHat > 5.1 burned for $5. I'm sure you could find someone fairly easily who > would do something similar. > I ran across a web page that listed people with old distribution CD's who > would either give them to you or let you borrow them. What I want to point out is that the price of a OS isn't just the package you buy at a shop. It's about the time you spend in installing and trying and reconfiguration etc. So, to come back on topic, the best for a TRS-80 emulator is still DOS. Install it, or even boot from a Disk. You could even put the emulator and DOS and some TRS-Apps on one 1.44 bootdisk. And best of all - Disk access will be Disk access. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From aaron at wfi-inc.com Fri Oct 23 10:05:26 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Brett Wish wrote: > You could get someone to burn you a CD copy, or find someone willing to > give away their old distribution CD. I was able to get a copy of RedHat > 5.1 burned for $5. I'm sure you could find someone fairly easily who > would do something similar. > > I ran across a web page that listed people with old distribution CD's who > would either give them to you or let you borrow them. > Haven't all you hard-core Linuxers bought from www.linuxmall.com yet? I have paid $1.49 for CD's of the last 6 distributions I've used. They also sell major applications (Word Perfect, Star Office, Applixware) for less than the source vendors. I think I got the Applixware student version for ~$50 a couple of years ago. Oh yeah, they also sell Oreily books cheaper than Oreily... Aaron From jsalzman at hersheys.com Fri Oct 23 10:16:21 1998 From: jsalzman at hersheys.com (Salzman, Jeff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Linux on-track topic (was RE: TRS-80 emulators) Message-ID: Sounds like they have buying power greater than Wal-Mart's to offer such pricing. Either that, or they have exclusive rights to manufacturer or publisher overruns or defects. Jeff Salzman ------------------ "If Taelons had hair, would Du'uh be a blond?" >Haven't all you hard-core Linuxers bought from www.linuxmall.com yet? I >have paid $1.49 for CD's of the last 6 distributions I've used. They also >sell major applications (Word Perfect, Star Office, Applixware) for less >than the source vendors. I think I got the Applixware student version for >~$50 a couple of years ago. Oh yeah, they also sell Oreily books cheaper >than Oreily... > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 23 10:23:44 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Bid list In-Reply-To: <199810230647.XAA25516@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Chuck McManis wrote: > these things are headed for landfill big time. Along about 2010 or 2015 and > trying to put together a representative 486 system from the "early 90's" is > going to be damn near impossible. Look at the PDP-8's which spanned 15 > years of production and are now pretty difficult to get hold of. That's because only several thousand PDP-8's were ever produced. Trust me, I don't think you're EVER going to have problems finding a 486 motherboard, at least not in the next millenium. > I don't know if I should laugh or buy an old Dell 486 box and wrap it up in > plastic and dessicant and save it for 20 years. And try to get more than $5 for it like people with TimexSinclair 1000s are these days? Or more than $1 for a Commodore 64? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Fri Oct 23 10:33:50 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: New Thread... TRS-80 Model IIs!!!! In-Reply-To: <363049F3.EA8E827D@cnct.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19981022182103.009b6c60@texas.net> <3.0.3.32.19981022190803.009bbc90@texas.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981023103350.0092ba90@texas.net> >> Note: on the Model II (TRS-80) there was an option to use page the memory >> so you could get more than 64K in the thing.... If I remember, it used a >> Z-80 I/O address as the pager. > >To the best of my recollection, the only serious memory paging that First: I have a bunch of Model II software! Problem is I am not sure how much is any good.... Anyone know how to read the data off of the disc and preserve the programs???? Anyone have any clue as to how to make a 3.5" floppy replace an 8"??? I have the TECHNICAL MANUALs for the Model II. As soon as I can dig them out, I want to scan them and put them on the net in PDF format.... Anyone interested??? Now on to my replies: >Tandy ever did with the Model II series was the 16k (each) in the >Arcnet and hard disk boards and the 32k in the graphics board. Some >other vendors went further with it, but as a Tandy customer support >rep, I never saw them in person. The Model 4 was a different story. No seriously, the Model II can page (I think it was the upper) 32K of memory IF you had extra memory cards. This feature is built in. >> Damnit! I want a 64bit Model II !!!!!!!! (Running and 500Gcyc of-course). >> With 8" Laser-Optical drives... and OH OH!!! I want a Thomas-Conrad >> 100Mbps Fiber ARCnet to connect it to my Linux machines!!!! > >Won't do you any good unless you also build (and program) the >custom Arcnet cards, since Model II Arcnet spoke only to Model II >Arcnet, even though the hardware and connection layers were >compatible with Datapoint and (later on) PC Arcnet systems. >I installed and supported Model II Arcnet, later on I installed >Vianet based on Arcnet hardware for PCs. The wires and hubs and >signals were the same, but the machines talked different languages. I wanna build my own ARCnet cards which is why I asked "does anyone have the spec.s (electrical and data format) for ARCnet?" I have called Datapoint and they are useless. I have contacted the ARCnet Trade Association and they want lotsa $$$$ for copies of the RFC. Why would I spend $100.00 for an RFC when I am just a hobbyist? "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 23 10:41:50 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college education In-Reply-To: <199810231246.IAA24424@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Not on a PDP-8. There was a vector graphics board set. It used an > oscilloscope for a display tube. As was proven in a patent lawsuit > filed against Nintendo, video games did exist before Pong, just not > in the living rooms of America. Oooh, this sounds cool. Do you have any more details behind this or a URL? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Fri Oct 23 10:48:20 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Okay one more time: LINUX for $1.49!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981023104820.009c38d0@texas.net> You can get the LATEST DISTRIBUTION any of the major Linux distributions (Extreme Linux & etc. excluded) for only $1.49!!!!!!!!! (or all 6 for $10.00). http://www.linuxmall.com You can even get a free copy of which ever distribution you want if you purchase something else! No, they are not factory over-runs or defects, they downloaded their copies and had the discs burned. Arfon "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From marvin at rain.org Fri Oct 23 10:51:27 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Book Source References: Message-ID: <3630A5FF.794B1CD0@rain.org> Rax wrote: > > A while back, someone posted a great source for used and out of print > books. I've lost the URL and can't remember the name - could someone please > repost it? John Lawson posted it and the company is American Book Exchange, excellent location! The URL is http://www.abebooks.com/ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 23 10:57:20 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Bid list Message-ID: <981023115720.22200135@trailing-edge.com> >That's because only several thousand PDP-8's were ever produced. Doug Jones's FAQ estimates the production run over the -8 family's lifetime at about three hundred thousand. See http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/dec-faq/pdp8/faq-doc-6.html for more detailed breakdowns. Tim. From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 23 12:16:33 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Bid list Message-ID: <199810231557.RAA08258@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> these things are headed for landfill big time. Along about 2010 or 2015 and >> trying to put together a representative 486 system from the "early 90's" is >> going to be damn near impossible. Look at the PDP-8's which spanned 15 >> years of production and are now pretty difficult to get hold of. > That's because only several thousand PDP-8's were ever produced. Trust > me, I don't think you're EVER going to have problems finding a 486 > motherboard, at least not in the next millenium. There has been a time when I thougt that picking up a ZX80 from dirt is not worth ... and now ? Also PET - have you seen the PETs on ePay ? I got most of my PET/CBMs way below USD 50 - and now ? Hard to finde won at a reasonable price. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Oct 23 11:11:32 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sethm@loomcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: PDP-11/70 rescued! In-Reply-To: <199810231315.JAA24826@user2.infinet.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 23, 98 09:15:43 am Message-ID: <199810231611.JAA01886@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 841 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/14b32c91/attachment.ksh From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Oct 23 12:05:49 1998 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educations) Message-ID: Chuck McManis wrote: >You guys don't get it. :-) > >You play the game like this: > 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. > 2) Scout for (surface) deposit of iron ore and start mining ore. >... > 15) Using generator create electricity. > 18) Mine tungsten and build lightbulb. > ... >First one to a PDP-8 wins :-) > Oh, I got it. I used to play that game with myself, but with the goal being "First one to match orbits and dock at the space station in polar orbit wins." I could never figure out a workable way to do it in one lifetime. (ObCC: guidance computers were a serious problem. Relays I built, clicking away in the vibration environment induced by a rocket I built? Right....Sequencers? Stable time reference? Oy.) I guess I'd have to start out: 1) Scout for native woman. 2) Establish dynasty. 3) Found school/religion to keep dynasty on task 4) Gosub Chuck's #1) above. ... :-) - Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Fri Oct 23 12:29:00 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <199810230854.KAA24395@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981023122900.00929d70@texas.net> >Just tell me why ? Because it has been the tame with old >8 Bit uPs ? Come on thats just the stupid 'thats the way >it always has been' idea. Address bus shuld be a) as wide >as needed and b) if possible not exeeding the Size of the >basic data unit. Again I say, You are not thinking about the future! "As wide as needed"... Is a very NOW statement. >For a) just tell me where you need more >than 4 Gig, or better where you need _way_ more than 4 Gig, >because just 4 or 10 times this address space is easyer done >with paging methods (wait for b)). Wait for Windows 2003! I'm sure that'll take at least 1Gb. And MS Office 2006 Hell, there's another 1 Gb. (Yes, I gotta poke at MS) >And for b) you need >special logic to perform address calculation, you can't >hold one address in one regular register, you need more >silicon to implement the adressing logic, adress calculation >and (hidden) adressing register - you also need an additional >ALU. More Silicon!?!? Where has this discussion gone awry???? I wanted to build a board the that was a Processor unit that talked Z-80. As for the notion of making a chip.... The chip size would not change. Yes the used real-estate would but you have that real-estate anyway. >> If you keep thinking like "you'll need $16,000,000,000.00 >> in memory for that address size" you'll do the same stupid thing as: > >If you don't need it don't spent the silicon. Again, the chip size would be about the same. As for $16,000,000,000.00 for the memory for a 128bit address size.... EASY!!! Don't add that much!!!! But don't make it so you can't add it in the future if we start getting 1Gb memory modules. >> Micro$oft ("640K is more than enough for anyone"), > >Be carefull, now you're entering historical teretorry. >MS-DOs was designed to use the full 1 Meg address space >of the 8086/88. And could could well boot with something >like 900 and more K user mem available. The 'Barrier' >(640 or what ever) was given to DOS by the BIOS of the >respective machine. And the PC-Bios had just to obey the >CGA memory. Micro$oft/PC BIOS..... It doesn't matter! the point was that someone said "640K is more than enough for anyone" and we all got bit by it. >> old programmers ("year 2000 is 20 years away. >> This stuff will be obsolete by then"), > >You are just talking to one of them - and FYI we continue >to use systems with two digit years and they are Y2K ready :) Cool! I'm just goint to set my machines back to a year that matches our calendar. >> and let us not forget Intel with their screwy memory addressing >> schemes on their pre-X386s. > >Again, please think a bit - the x86 segmentation is a real >great atempt to give >- give more than 64 K Mem to a 16 Bit uP If Intel had used 32bit address lines for a 16bit uP, they wouldn't have a 64K problem. KISS! >> Think ahead! It wouldn't cost that much more or requrie much >> more effort to add a few bits to the address bus. > >Just remember b) you NEED more effort, especialy things >that don't fit into your standard model. >And if your thinking about MMUs to expand a 64 Bit adress >to 128, you just cut the adressrage down to 64 Bit, since >external address enhancements are no design detail of a CPU. You need more effort if you want a fairly un-buggy design several generations from now. Patches are NOT the answer. Planning is. Magjor thought here: IF you have more than one data bus width on your address bus, you will have to have a partial address register for the MSBs. This is insane! Later in uP models, your old processor's address space AA44H will be the same as AB44H will be the same as CC44H (as an example). Case in point the older Intel x86s. Some screwy software developers will not take expansion into account and they will write code that will be buggy later in this families' life. Add to the cons the added headache of writing software that drops the MSBs of the upper address areas or manipulates the addresses that are not a multiple of the data word sizes. >> As for the suggestion of using a DEC alpha to emulate a Z-80... I thought >> about it but, those darned Alphas are way too expensive for us hobbist. > >Please ? An Alpha board with CPU is only a bit more expensive >than a PC board with an equal Pentium. At least thats the >street price over here in Munich - we have some PC part shops >that are also selling Alpha boards and CPUs right aut of the >blister. Whoa!!! I want an Alpha!!!! I hope they have them in the $99.99 range! I hate to pay a lot of money for something that will become obsolete and/or drop like a rock in price in a few months. (I NEVER buy the latest and greatest! The price vs. performance ratio is not acceptable in my opinion). >> Anyone know if Zilog is going to beef up the Zx80 line???? > >Faster 180s and of course the 380s. But Zilog has to >build things that will sell, so they are more into >integrating special I/O devices than more CPU power. When I talked to Zilog (about a 2 years ago) they had no real plans to make the Z-x80 lines viable as anythings other than controllers. Tis ashame. I really wish they (or another company) would put the Z-x80 family in the fight as a first class uProcessor. Get them clock freqs up! Get those data paths wider! Get parallel processing going inside the package! I really want to do Video and massive amount of data transfers with Z-x80s. Arfon "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From erd at infinet.com Fri Oct 23 12:29:33 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: PDP-11/70 rescued! In-Reply-To: <199810231611.JAA01886@loomcom.com> from "sethm@loomcom.com" at Oct 23, 98 09:11:32 am Message-ID: <199810231729.NAA28927@user2.infinet.com> > > > The haul includes: > > > > 2 PDP-11/70 CPUs w/4Mb MOS memory... > VERY nice setup! These systems are quite the holy grail for anyone > interested in large timeshareing PDP-11 setups. In some ways, I'd > rather have one of these than a PDP-10, simply because it would be > SOOO much easier to keep an 11/70 running. I'd still rather have a PDP-10. I already have smaller -11's (11/24 w/KT11, 11/34a, 11/23+...) > You have enough equipment there to host dozens of simultaneous > RSX11M-PLUS users, should you want to for any odd reason :) Very odd. I do have 800bpi dist tapes for 11M and 11M+, as well as, IIRC, -11M+ v2.1 on RL02 dist packs. It would be highly unlikely. I'd rather get off my ass and pay $100 for the PUPS v7/2BSD license, even though I also happen to have a bootable 2.9BSD install on 1600bpi tape. What I really need is some 3rd-party UNIBUS disk controllers. > 4MB is fully loaded for its 22bit address bus. Right. -ethan From erd at infinet.com Fri Oct 23 13:04:36 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa In-Reply-To: <199810231442.QAA14505@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Oct 23, 98 04:03:05 pm Message-ID: <199810231804.OAA29661@user2.infinet.com> > > Wow - thats it - I 've been already eaten up by megagraphics. > So, anything I could Imagine was to reduce graphics to ASCII > ... but Yo thats it Hamurabi ! > > Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? > > Gruss > H. > Mine's at home, but I do happen to have a version I ported to the PET in 1978 that is sitting right here on my SPARCstation disk. I've got xpet, and a directory full of my old tapes that I converted to .d64 emulator disk format. I'd post HAMMURABI.BAS, but I suspect that more than one person would get annoyed. If anyone _really_ wants a copy, I can provide one. It depends on logical statements working as follows: The statement C=(A>B) would set C to 0 if A weren't greater than B, and would set C=-1 if A were greater than B. Not all micro BASICs support this. I'm pretty sure Applesoft is onethat does _not_. -ethan From erd at infinet.com Fri Oct 23 13:17:41 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college education In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 23, 98 08:41:50 am Message-ID: <199810231817.OAA29947@user2.infinet.com> > > On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Not on a PDP-8. There was a vector graphics board set. It used an > > oscilloscope for a display tube. As was proven in a patent lawsuit > > filed against Nintendo, video games did exist before Pong, just not > > in the living rooms of America. > > Oooh, this sounds cool. Do you have any more details behind this or a > URL? If you mean the PDP-8 vector board set, I have no details at hand except those in the Small Computer Handbooks of the 1960's. I am aware of some pre-OMNIBUS stuff for the -8, -8i and LINC that did this. I do not know what was compatible with what or what the IOTs were. If you mean the lawsuit, I can shed some light. The story was told to me by a ringside participant, Charlie Lasner, of some fame in Usenet circles for his strong views and his long detailed posts. It seems that sometime in the 1980's, some patents relating to video games fell into the hands of some greedy, bloodsucking, intellectual property laywers who decided to extort money from the video game industry with them. Most companies paid a "license fee" with little fuss. Nintendo balked. They sent out the call far and wide for "prior art". Word reached cjl; living in Queens, it was no big trouble for him to be an expert witness on antique computers. At a demonstration at his house, cjl fired up a PDP-12 (or LINC-8, I forget which he has) with the vector scope, loaded a paper tape and showed the judge and assembled crowd a video game (with paper listings) that could be documented to have existed several years before the patents in question were granted. This was sufficient for the judge to invalidate the patents. That is the story as I remember hearing in 1993 while standing in the middle of the biggest pile of PDP-8's I've ever seen in my life. -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 23 13:17:42 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educations) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981023131742.00c80450@pc> At 12:05 PM 10/23/98 -0500, Mark Tapley wrote: > I guess I'd have to start out: > > 1) Scout for native woman. > 2) Establish dynasty. > 3) Found school/religion to keep dynasty on task > 4) Gosub Chuck's #1) above. Read the actual "A Connecticut Yankee In King Arthur's Court" by Mark Twain - not the Classics Illustrated comic book, not the Bing Crosby version. Said Yankee goes back to Camelot and establishes electricity, the telephone, and various flavors of modern warfare, and picks up the native woman and establishes said schools as above along the way. It would make a great movie if they stuck to the book. - John From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 23 14:48:29 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa Message-ID: <199810231828.UAA02354@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> Wow - thats it - I 've been already eaten up by megagraphics. >> So, anything I could Imagine was to reduce graphics to ASCII >> ... but Yo thats it Hamurabi ! >> Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? > Mine's at home, but I do happen to have a version I ported to the PET > in 1978 that is sitting right here on my SPARCstation disk. I've got > xpet, and a directory full of my old tapes that I converted to .d64 > emulator disk format. I'd post HAMMURABI.BAS, but I suspect that more > than one person would get annoyed. If anyone _really_ wants a copy, I > can provide one. It depends on logical statements working as follows: > The statement C=(A>B) would set C to 0 if A weren't greater than B, and > would set C=-1 if A were greater than B. Not all micro BASICs support this. > I'm pretty sure Applesoft is onethat does _not_. Hmm shure ? I have to admit that I don't remember (stupid meone). But I think it will . After all Applesoft is jsut another MS-Basic. I'll try as soon as I'm back home. I'll post the result. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Oct 23 13:44:29 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Bid list Message-ID: <2209fef3.3630ce8d@aol.com> In a message dated 10/23/98 5:54:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dburrows@netpath.net writes: << > BURROUGHS > >23879724 G 300 VIDEO BOARD ET110 $5 ?Terminal cards for a 8 bit PC? >283531-006 G 2 1351 CONT CCA ??? don't know what it is These are Color Graphic Adapters for the PC ISA bus >2993-0666 G 295 WER SUPPLY $5 to $8 >3388-7498 G 169 KEYBOARD ASSY $5 >AP1351 G 5 PRINTER, AP 1351 If this is a complete printer $10 to $15 Small serial printer, 9 pin dot Matrix. >B28CPU G 1 CPU I think a 286 CPU for the Convergent Engine series, small box computers. It may need drives to make it work. >E2817B39-HT G 62 CRT $5 considering that they will have to pay to dispose of to meet EPA regs. >ET-1100 G 9 TERMINAL $5 to $10 Disposal costs as above. > >Any ideas? >> More terminals than I care to deal with. Be carefull with you bidding, there can be a lot of bulk wiith this stuff. Bid slightly over the scrap price unless you can't live without it. If you can't live without it bid 30% maybe. Watch your quantities. Paxton From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Oct 23 13:44:26 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: PDP-11/70 rescued! Message-ID: What third party Unibus disk controllers are you looking for. I may have some non DEC controllers. I also have an HSC50, 5 RA81s, an RA60 and a TU 81+ in Portland Oregon that I am interested in selling. I think I have a couple of Eagles for sale too. I also have a VAX 730 with R80 & RL02 for sale. Paxton From support at caldera.com Fri Oct 23 14:06:07 1998 From: support at caldera.com (Caldera Systems Support) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators, Linux distributions References: <199810230312.VAA31707@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <3630D39F.86DFE807@caldera.com> I would like to clarify a couple points that Jim makes. Tech Support - It is true from time to time we get backed up in our support mail. Our goal is to respond with in 1-2 business days. For the most part we do achieve this. That support is for installation in the out of the box configuration. While we don't have enough time to support everything available for Linux, we do make an effort to point customers in a direction if they are asking question beyond our scope. A lot of factors are a part of an installation. The most challenging can be the hardware itself. Typically support for the latest hardware lags a bit in Linux, depending on the hardware vendors willingness to work with the Open Source community. For example until kernel version 2.0.35 Ultra DMA IDE was not supported in Linux without using experimental patches. Our OpenLinux 1.3, released Oct. 1st includes this kernel. Regardless of which Linux distribution you choose I recommend that you check the vendors hardware compatibility list before installing. Based on Red Hat distribution- Actually our distribution is our own. We merged with LST from Germany a year ago, these same LST engineers build and test our OpenLinux distribution. Other than our first product CND, which was based on Red Hat, we have been based on the LST distribution for all of the OpenLinux products. It is true that OpenLinux, Red Hat, SuSE, Debian all now use the system V initialization routines, rather than the BSD method which Slackware still does. So for someone used to BSD type systems that may be more appealing. Jim, We would like a chance to change your impressions of Caldera. We would like to send you a free copy of our latest Product Openlinux 1.3. Please send me your shipping address and we will get one out to you. Mark Carpenter Manager, Technical Support Caldera Systems, Inc. mark.carpenter@caldera.com Jim Strickland wrote: > Yeah, Caldera Linux sells for about $50 with the promise of tech support. > > Don't believe it. > > Their e-mail tech support is a sorry joke. The responders don't KNOW anything, > and most of the time they don't bother responding at all. Plus the distribution > is based on Red Hat, which means *nothing* is where it belongs if you're used > to BSDish unix. What this means is if you have older software (say, an older > version of Elm) that is pre-redhat it probably won't compile at all. > > If I had known then what I know now about Caldera, I would have ordered the > latest and greatest Slackware cd from Walnut Creek CDROMS, and gone from there. > > So I'm basically saying DON'T BOTHER WITH CALDERA LINUX. It's far overpriced > and the only redeming feature, the tech support is all promise and no substance. > > I strongly recommend Slackware Linux. No support, but for 35 bucks you get > 4 CDs of stuff, and a cool catalog with things like CDROMS of the project > gutenburg texts. > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Caldera Systems, Inc. Technical Support Team http://www.caldera.com From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Fri Oct 23 10:19:41 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Justification of a 128bit address bus.... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981022183908.009b38f0@texas.net> References: Message-ID: <199810231914.PAA23697@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:39:08 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Arfon Gryffydd > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Justification of a 128bit address bus.... Snipped of that TRS-80 gloating...tsk tsk. But if that meets your needs, great but no point in gloating who has the best. > x486SX-25 and Win98!!! (FYI: No problems with Y2K, I'm running Linux). The point about locking those guys who made out those idiotic design in that room with 486sx I would vote for (or better yet Cyrix 486SLC no better than 385DX). IRQ cramming is serious problem for last few years now and Y2K is still found in many current hardware and software even in some LInux apps. Don't dismiss it lightly! I'm still looking for right solutions but no action yet. This is because of too many differing opinions and solutions confusing this issue. I looked at MS's website and there are many Y2K issues in win95 including the dos date fixes, still confused. I want one that will work when I apply patches or bios updates some want you to use beta bios on 1 year old boards for that Y2K. Not too appealing. Push that motherboard maker for final bioses releses for some Asus boards that was stopped made last year. sissy. (Asus) I plan to keep T2P4 for long time with AMD K6 series upgrade to it to replace the 100mhz cpu but the Y2K must be addressed first! I had crappy hardware in 386dx It was folly but remember I was just starting out because of poor quality and again with 486. P5 machine was good quality stuff. This switch over really made the difference in reliablity and savings in long run and more importantly proper performance. This machine is still in use for over 2 years now. > Again, I say that it is better to over-kill in the beginning than patch > everything later. If you are dealing with a 64 bit data bus, It is nice > and easy to just use two data widths (packaging is a bitch but, that can be > overcome). > Long time to see that happen yet because people is still buying SS7 with AMD chips and PII, celerons w/ 128K on board. Snip! Jason D. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Fri Oct 23 10:44:16 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19981022182103.009b6c60@texas.net> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Oct 22, 98 06:21:03 pm Message-ID: <199810231939.PAA03646@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 00:32:20 +0100 (BST) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) > > WIRE_WRAP!?!?!?! ICK! I usually pull out my cheapo PCB CAD program...... > > Actually, for prototyping wire-wrap is a lot faster to do, and it'll > clock faster as well. It's much easier to get a good ground plane on a > wire-wrapped board than a double-sided PCB Wire wrap?...hmmm I have problems with that in ohmic losses even the connections is good, soldering them helped a bit but no dice. > So what you really want is an I/O page and an addressing mode (a bit like > Direct Page on the 6809) that accesses the I/O ports. And also allows > them to be accessed by normal memory reference instructions. Have data transfers done with DMA, all memory mapped and irq driven to knock subCPU as needed to grab data then place it in CPU's lap. Leave CPU alone for processing. How about that? > > -tony Jason D. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Fri Oct 23 10:44:16 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Y2K and immortal executables In-Reply-To: <199810222051.QAA17007@crobin.home.org> References: <19981022200254.27908.qmail@hotmail.com> from Max Eskin at "Oct 22, 98 01:02:54 pm" Message-ID: <199810231939.PAA03642@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:51:25 -0400 (EDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: John Ruschmeyer > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Y2K and immortal executables Snip! > The root cause has been traced to unbuffered real-time clock chips. On > a system with such a chip, the BIOS may attempt to read some data during > a time when it is being updated and during which a flag value is present, > instead of a real date. It only seems to occur post-1/1/2000 because the > longer code path taken to calculate the Y2K date may take longer than the > grace period the clock chip provides prior to an update. > > Messy stuff... Yeah! Y2K is messy! Is that unbuffered part is because of low quality and cost cutting condition? What can I identify that by look on boards or by software? Jason D. > <<>> > > email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From erd at infinet.com Fri Oct 23 14:50:47 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: PDP-11/70 rescued! In-Reply-To: from "Innfogra@aol.com" at Oct 23, 98 02:44:26 pm Message-ID: <199810231950.PAA01341@user2.infinet.com> > > What third party Unibus disk controllers are you looking for. I may have some > non DEC controllers. I forget the numbers, but I'm looking for something like an Emulex Unibus SMD or EDSI card. I have an abundance of 5.25" EDSI disks, quite enough to get a fleet of PDP-11's working, if only I had controllers. > I also have an HSC50, 5 RA81s, an RA60 and a TU 81+ in Portland Oregon that I > am interested in selling. I think I have a couple of Eagles for sale too. No thanks. I'm in Ohio and that stuff is too heavy, even for free. > I also have a VAX 730 with R80 & RL02 for sale. Got one. It's very nice. 5Mb RAM, Ultrix or VMS (I have both). It used to run Ultrix 1.1 and was my employer's link to the 'net - UUCP at 1200 baud before the Great Renaming. It currently has VMS 5.0 on it. We used to DECnet object modules to it for linking our product. -ethan From erd at infinet.com Fri Oct 23 15:15:29 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: PDP-11/70 rescued! In-Reply-To: <199810231950.PAA01341@user2.infinet.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 23, 98 03:50:47 pm Message-ID: <199810232015.QAA01701@user2.infinet.com> > > > What third party Unibus disk controllers are you looking for. I may have some > > non DEC controllers. > > I forget the numbers, but I'm looking for something like an Emulex Unibus > SMD or EDSI card. I'm tired, not stupid. That should be ESDI. -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 23 15:09:03 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: PDP-10 arch question In-Reply-To: <199810231127.NAA28645@marina.fth.sbs.de> (franke@sbs.de) References: <199810231127.NAA28645@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <19981023200903.12901.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Hans Franke" wrote: > Wasn't the 432 able to adress whole Objectspace > as Bits ? No, it didn't even have pointers to bytes. The Intel iAPX 432 General Data Processor (GDP) had Access Descriptors (ADs) which pointed to entire objects. Indexing could be done to the byte level of the data portion of an object, or to an individual AD of the access portion. (The data portion couldn't store ADs, and the access portion couldn't store data.) You're probably thinking of the instruction objects, which contained up to 64 kbits (8 kbytes) of instructions. The instructions were of variable bit lengths from 6 bits (return) to 344 bits, and were not aligned. Eric From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 23 15:28:37 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810232028.AA19627@world.std.com> < Wire wrap?...hmmm I have problems with that in ohmic losses even the < connections is good, soldering them helped a bit but no dice. Huh? I have 6 cards, s100 protoboards with about 25-40 pieces of mos and TTL on them that I wrapped in 1981 still running. Ohmic losses? What were you doing wrong. Remember #30 is for signals not power! < Have data transfers done with DMA, all memory mapped and irq driven < to knock subCPU as needed to grab data then place it in CPU's lap. < Leave CPU alone for processing. How about that? Those 6 boards built a multi z80 system with DMA and slave processors for things like IO and disks. It helps but the z80 bus is so busy that it's very hard to slip inbetween cycles so you steal cpu cycles by holding it off with BUSRQ/. Z280, z8000 and Z380 use burst mode access to the bus so that other devices can get in and get a few cycles without holding up the cpu. Even with slaves you reach a bottleneck between memory management and overhead to move data around. Still the results with 6mhz z80s were enough to blow away 386/16 class machine for text oriented applications. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 23 15:26:46 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college education In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Fri, 23 Oct 1998 08:41:50 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981023202646.13005.qmail@brouhaha.com> On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Not on a PDP-8. There was a vector graphics board set. It used an > oscilloscope for a display tube. As was proven in a patent lawsuit > filed against Nintendo, video games did exist before Pong, just not > in the living rooms of America. Sam replied: > Oooh, this sounds cool. Do you have any more details behind this or a > URL? The board set was the VC8-E (M869), and it was typically used with a VR14 monitor (same as used in the PDP-11-based GT40). I have a not-yet-fully-functional Lab-8/e, which is a PDP-8/e configured with the VT8-E, A/D and D/A converters, and a rack-mount VR14. There was a special version of FOCAL with support for these devices. There is a version of Space War that will run on an 8/e with the VC8-E. There is also a raster display interface, the VT8-E (M8335, M8336, M8337) that can even do bit-mapped graphics, DMA'd from the core memory. I'd like to get my hands on one of these. Eric From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Oct 23 15:45:19 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: AY 3500 Message-ID: <199810232045.NAA08656@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 528 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/99150e56/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 23 15:51:59 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa" (Oct 23, 16:03) References: <199810231442.QAA14505@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <9810232151.ZM9651@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 23, 16:03, Hans Franke wrote: > >> My Lord Hammurabi, I beg to report to you that this year we > >> have produced 1,000 transistors and 400 rallods of copper > >> wire. > > Surplus shops have taken 215 transistors. > > Do you want to buy or sell source code? That brings back some fond memories :-) > Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? Probably same place mine went: loaned, not returned. I still have ":More BASIC Computer Games: 84 Fabulous Games for Your Personal Computer", though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 23 15:54:43 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa" (Oct 23, 14:04) References: <199810231804.OAA29661@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: <9810232154.ZM9712@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 23, 14:04, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? > Mine's at home, but I do happen to have a version I ported to the PET > in 1978 that is sitting right here on my SPARCstation disk. I've got > xpet, and a directory full of my old tapes that I converted to .d64 > emulator disk format. I'd post HAMMURABI.BAS, but I suspect that more > than one person would get annoyed. I'm sure I've seen a copy on one of the Vax sites somewhere. I'm fairly sure I have a copy on one of the hard disks here, too. Somewhere :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From headcase at eclipse.co.uk Fri Oct 23 15:54:28 1998 From: headcase at eclipse.co.uk (Jim Bunting) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: Intellec 8 -v- Altair 8800 Message-ID: <000201bdfec7$9c1041a0$48802ed4@default> When collecting vintage/classic computers it would seem to me that the apparently much sort after Altair 8800 is the Model T to the Intellec's R.R. Silver Ghost. At the time - 1974 - I thought the Altair was a very very cheap copy of my very very very expensive Intellec - and I still do! But then I would, wouldn't I? Have I fallen for all the eBay hype or have I've been wrong all these years? Jim Bunting - headcase@eclipse.co.uk M.V. Great Gull, Double Locks Hotel, Canal Banks, Exeter Ship Canal, Exeter, Devon, U.K. EX2 6LT. Phone No. 44 (0) 1392 493311 (On Board) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/86847296/attachment.html From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 23 15:57:10 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: AY 3500 Message-ID: <981023165710.22200161@trailing-edge.com> >Anyone know anything about the famous AY-3500 chip, manufactured by >General Instruments, heart of a zillion Pong clones? What do you want to know? For pinouts and examples of use, you would find construction articles in then mid-late 70's issues of _Radio-Electronics_ and _Popular Electronics_ quite useful. Tim. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Oct 23 16:10:45 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:37 2005 Subject: AY 3500 In-Reply-To: <981023165710.22200161@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 23, 98 04:57:10 pm Message-ID: <199810232110.OAA12972@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1106 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/eb990690/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 23 16:03:56 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa Message-ID: <981023170356.22200161@trailing-edge.com> >I'm sure I've seen a copy on one of the Vax sites somewhere. It's not "a VAX site", but Hammurabi does appear on the Spring 78 RT-11 SIG tape, and this is available by anonymous ftp from ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rt/decus/spri78/hamurs.bas The top looks like: 100 PRINT "YOU ARE THE RULER OF THE ANCIENT KINGDOM OF SUMERIA." 101 PRINT "YOUR PEOPLE CALL YOU 'HAMURABI THE WISE'. YOUR TASK IS" 102 PRINT "TO DEVELOP A STABLE ECONOMY BY THE WISE MANAGEMENT OF" 103 PRINT "YOUR RESOURCES. YOU WILL BE BESET FROM TIME TO TIME" 104 PRINT "BY NATURAL EVENTS. THE ONLY HELP I CAN GIVE YOU IS THE " 105 PRINT "FACT THAT IT TAKES 2 BUSHELS OF GRAIN AS SEED TO PLANT" 106 PRINT "AN ACRE. MAY YOU JUDGE WELL, ALKNOWING HAMURABI." 107 PRINT "***********HAMURABI IS HERE***********" 110 P=95 (...) > I'm fairly > sure I have a copy on one of the hard disks here, too. Somewhere :-) Heck, I've got my set of 4 8" SSSD floppies straight from Creative Computing with "101 Basic Games" and "More Basic Games". It's fun to fire up the IMSAI, load a game, fix the typos (yes, there are typos in many of the MBASIC sources!), and play a game of blackjack, lunar lander, or Hamurabi! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 23 16:08:38 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa In-Reply-To: pete@indy (Pete Turnbull) "Re: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa" (Oct 23, 20:54) References: <199810231804.OAA29661@user2.infinet.com> <9810232154.ZM9712@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <9810232208.ZM9804@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 23, 20:54, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Oct 23, 14:04, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > emulator disk format. I'd post HAMMURABI.BAS, but I suspect that more > > than one person would get annoyed. > > I'm sure I've seen a copy on one of the Vax sites somewhere. I'm fairly > sure I have a copy on one of the hard disks here, too. Somewhere :-) I was right -- I found it, all 118 lines, including comments, along with a pile of other stuff from David Ahl, such as KING.BAS (same idea, but twice as big). Who remembers this one: 1 PRINT "DIRECT YOUR DOG TO ANY OF THE FOLLOWING FILES:" 2 PRINT "KB:--KEYBOARD, LP:--PRINTER, PP:--HIGH SPEED PUNCH" 3 INPUT "WHICH ONE";A$ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Oct 23 12:08:16 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: Book Source In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199810232112.RAA19397@smtp.interlog.com> On 23 Oct 98 at 0:05, Rax wrote: > A while back, someone posted a great source for used and out of print > books. I've lost the URL and can't remember the name - could someone please > repost it? > > Thanks > > R. > You're likely referring to http://www.abebooks.com A terribly dangerous place to browze. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Oct 23 12:08:15 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: L-DOS In-Reply-To: <36303F3F.5D36873D@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199810232112.RAA19418@smtp.interlog.com> On 23 Oct 98 at 4:33, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Incidentally, if anyone's interested in LDOS, the source code for (I > > think) 6.3.x, along with disk images for the TRS-80 emulators are > > availabe from Tim Mann's TRS-80 page. > > > > I loved LDOS. It is my second-favourite 8 bit OS. My favourite (of > > course) is OS-9. > > My favorite 8-bit OS is OS-9. My favorite single-user OS (no > matter how many bits) is LS-DOS, closely followed by LDOS. (Roy > did have some optimisations for the better Model 4 hardware). > > I've pulled everything available from Tim's page, and will build a > proper mirror once I have a static IP address so my pages can be on > my machines instead of my ISP's. (Plus put up the TRS-80 Model > 2/16/12/6000 stuff -- a great series woefully under-represented on > the Web). > -- > Ward Griffiths > Just in case you haven't checked it out yet, Kees Stravers has an excellent page relating to the TRS Model II at: http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/modelii.html ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Oct 23 16:25:51 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: EDSAC celebration? Message-ID: <199810232125.OAA17568@saul9.u.washington.edu> This question has been rattling around in my head for some time. Perhaps one of the UK people has the answer. I enjoyed the Manchester Mark I recreation. I saw the programming contest, thought about writing something really fantastic (a small computer language, whatever), looked closer at the architecture of the machine, and changed my mind. It's pretty limited. I was *quite* impressed by the noodle-timer program that won the contest, though. But I always liked the EDSAC much more than the Manchester Mark I (baby or full version). It has a very elegant design and you can get actual work done with it. (Because the Mark I ran a stored program first but was in proto- type stage, I see the EDSAC as the first working modern stored-prgoram computer, followed soon after by the finished Mark I.) And the Initial Orders are STILL one of the most ingenious programs ever. Except I haven't heard anything about an EDSAC recreation, and the 50th anniversary date is coming up! (Is it June 6 1999 or some time in May?) And M. V. Wilkes has remained active in the field, so he might be inclined to do something like this. Is anything planned? If nothing ends up happening, I intend to get an autographed copy of the Wilkes/Wheeler/Gill book. P.S. IMO history shows that British computer designs are often MUCH more sensible than their American contemporaries. They treat the computer as a tool to be used rather than a hunk of hardware with software slapped on later. Too bad history shows that British computer *sales* are LESS successful than their American counterparts. -- Derek From aaron at wfi-inc.com Fri Oct 23 16:36:03 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: In case you thought Ebay couldn't get more ridiculous... Message-ID: What the fu... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=37155064 From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Oct 23 17:12:31 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: In case you thought Ebay couldn't get more ridiculous... References: Message-ID: <3630FF4E.C2290C2F@bigfoot.com> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > What the fu... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=37155064 If you look at the feedback with the present high bidder, it's obviously a mental case with unlimited funds. I thought the starting price was a little on edge as it was. I sold a Compaq SLT/286 to a dweeb in NY that I aid $25 for and cleaned and trimmed it up, expecting to get my investment back, and got $55 for it. He asked for a refund, I told him he was crazy, and he relisted it and sold it for $99. Go figure..... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/e3ae7187/attachment.html From cmcmanis at freegate.com Fri Oct 23 17:40:24 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa In-Reply-To: <9810232154.ZM9712@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <199810231804.OAA29661@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: <199810232233.PAA09437@mxu4.u.washington.edu> At 08:54 PM 10/23/98 +0000, Pete wrote: > I'm sure I've seen a copy [of HAMMURABI.BAS] on one of the Vax sites > somewhere. I'm fairly sure I have a copy on one of the hard disks > here, too. Somewhere :-) Its on the CPMUG basic archive disks (actually I think nearly all of the 101 games are available in the BASIC archives) I used it to test my BASIC interpreter written in Java. --Chuck From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Oct 23 18:05:53 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sethm@loomcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: In case you thought Ebay couldn't get more ridiculous... In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Oct 23, 98 02:36:03 pm Message-ID: <199810232305.QAA02836@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 356 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/06191b6a/attachment.ksh From jrice at texoma.net Fri Oct 23 18:05:20 1998 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: DEC Hardware References: <363059D4.8353BC9E@texoma.net> Message-ID: <36310BB0.C8D76CFC@texoma.net> I was tied up at work today so I didn't get to see the hardware today, but I have a 10am meeting with the guy Monday to get model numbers. I looked at the PDP a couple of months ago, seems like there were a couple of hard drives, maybe a tape drive, a complete spare set of cards and a spart front panel as well as a "Industrial I/O" rack. The PDP consists of three racks of equipment. It was running a furnace until July 4th. The Vax were in service in the "Computer room" until earlier this year. When I find out more, I'll let you know. "James L. Rice" wrote: > > I'm going to look at some DEC hardware, a PDP-11/34 and some VAX > equipment. I'm not into DEC's so I thought I'd look at it as possibly > a rescue setup. This company is going to want some residual value > payment. how much is this stuff worth? It was taken out of service a > couple of months ago. I'll try to get a list of what's available. It's > located about 60 miles from Dallas. I might want one of the Vax boxes, > but I don't want any PDP hardware. Anyone interested? > > James From maxeskin at law-smtpdev.hotmail.com Fri Oct 23 18:41:08 1998 From: maxeskin at law-smtpdev.hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <19981023234132.9178.qmail@hotmail.com> Are z80's still being produced? If so, are they the same as the 1980 ones? I would think so, since the TI-86 (still in production) uses a z80. BTW, I guess comparing the multi-Z80 system to a 386 isn't too fair. How much faster is it than 1 z80 running the same program? Why is everyone making multi-z80 machines, anyway? Why not 6502 or 6800 or even (gasp!) 8088? >< connections is good, soldering them helped a bit but no dice. > >Huh? I have 6 cards, s100 protoboards with about 25-40 pieces of mos and >TTL on them that I wrapped in 1981 still running. Ohmic losses? What were >you doing wrong. Remember #30 is for signals not power! > >< Have data transfers done with DMA, all memory mapped and irq driven >< to knock subCPU as needed to grab data then place it in CPU's lap. >< Leave CPU alone for processing. How about that? > >Those 6 boards built a multi z80 system with DMA and slave processors for >things like IO and disks. It helps but the z80 bus is so busy that it's >very hard to slip inbetween cycles so you steal cpu cycles by holding it >off with BUSRQ/. Z280, z8000 and Z380 use burst mode access to the bus so >that other devices can get in and get a few cycles without holding up the >cpu. Even with slaves you reach a bottleneck between memory management >and overhead to move data around. Still the results with 6mhz z80s were >enough to blow away 386/16 class machine for text oriented applications. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From nerdware at laidbak.com Fri Oct 23 18:48:16 1998 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: 128k Mac Schematic needed In-Reply-To: <199810200502.BAA25691@mail.cgocable.net> References: <199810200431.XAA02569@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <199810232345.SAA04042@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 01:08:02 +0000 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: jpero@pop.cgocable.net To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: 128k Mac Schematic needed > Why not order a PSU/flyback for Mac 128/512K and Plus rebuild/upgrade > kit from CCS? That should solve everything and a new yoke connector. > I'm not familiar with CCS. Do you have a phone # or URL? Thanks. > Also redo all solder joints on heavy components and all connector > pins. Will do. > > Cost: Not more than $30. > > Jason D. > Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 23 12:46:53 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <326E1511.3148@gamewood.net> from "Charles A Davis" at Oct 23, 96 08:52:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 730 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/01d90279/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 23 12:55:21 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <199810230233.AA00077@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 22, 98 10:33:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 688 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/aad5d099/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 23 13:20:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: PDP-11/70 rescued! In-Reply-To: <199810231315.JAA24826@user2.infinet.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 23, 98 09:15:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1820 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/6f056b81/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 23 12:53:40 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <199810230233.AA29951@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 22, 98 10:33:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 753 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/6caa6c17/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 23 13:36:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college education In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 23, 98 08:41:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2321 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/fb4c64a0/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 23 19:18:53 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: UL? (Was: PDP-11/70 rescued! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > the CPU box fans. The 3 phase (star (Wye) connected) goes into the power I don't know how much to believe any more. But there are some folk here who know enough to maybe be able to tell me whether it's POSSIBLE, . . . A story that I heard: A certain local community college a couple of decades ago had an 11/70 that they NEVER could get right. Constant problems; replacements of entire drive assemblies, etc. Finally, the last straw was when the machine went down (hard drive failure) for most of a semester, taking out the COBOL classes, etc. that depended on it. The DP department decided to sell it and buy PCs. That way, anything that went wrong couldn't take out the whole lab at once. They sold it to a certain local school district (which recently changed their name due to bad public image!). When the school district was ready to hook it up, they found out (after the fact) that the electric company installers didn't understand the difference between Y and Delta three phase! (I personally encountered the same mistake when starting up a garage). The electric company agreed to provide complete replacement of the entire machine IFF those present would go along with a face-saving story that the machine had been hit by lightning. The community college got their PCs (most of which are still around) and the school district got a replacement machine that worked reliably. Lightning is rare around here. Which story should I believe? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From gram at cnct.com Fri Oct 23 19:22:52 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educations) References: <3.0.1.32.19981023131742.00c80450@pc> Message-ID: <36311DDC.42B1A6B5@cnct.com> John Foust wrote: > > At 12:05 PM 10/23/98 -0500, Mark Tapley wrote: > > I guess I'd have to start out: > > > > 1) Scout for native woman. > > 2) Establish dynasty. > > 3) Found school/religion to keep dynasty on task > > 4) Gosub Chuck's #1) above. > > Read the actual "A Connecticut Yankee In King Arthur's Court" by > Mark Twain - not the Classics Illustrated comic book, not the > Bing Crosby version. Said Yankee goes back to Camelot and > establishes electricity, the telephone, and various flavors > of modern warfare, and picks up the native woman and establishes > said schools as above along the way. It would make a great movie > if they stuck to the book. Another good one along those lines is _The Cross-Time Engineer_ and sequels, by Leo Frankowski, about a modern (1980s) Polish engineer who accidentally gets dumped into the year 1231, ten years before the Mongols in our (and his original) world almost totally depopulated that part of Europe. How to get a massively outnumbered medieval population ready in such a short time isn't his only problem. Among other things, this good socialist has to get quite capitalistic to get things done. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From thomas at 0000000.com Fri Oct 23 19:21:26 1998 From: thomas at 0000000.com (Thomas Poff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) References: <19981023234132.9178.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199810240033.RAA23536@0000000.com> Zworld makes a bunch of neat Z180 (Z80 + MMU & timers) boards. They are laden with i/o and features. One of them is extra tiny. They have a PC/104 based board that I successfully got working with a PC/104-based VGA card. Their dev tools are weird and overpriced but easy to work with. http://www.zworld.com People still use what are basically Z80s for various things including I think Nintendo Gameboy and the Starfix/Motorola REX PIM (PDA). There's also Zilog and Hitachi, who make the Z180 with eval boards and such http://www.zilog.com Z80, 8051 and other 8-bit cores are pretty accessible in Verilog if you contact the right companies and can throw a good sales pitch. Doing a virtual Trs-80 could be pretty fun on a modern Z180 board would be a lot of fun since you could make it basically fit in your hand and connect to either an LCD or a VGA monitor. The Z80 consists of very few gates, suck little power and is perfect for those mass-market low-cost devices that Americans refuse to make. It's a good "high-performance processor" for integrating into an ASIC which makes it perfect for lots small, hand-held devices. Thomas From mbg at world.std.com Fri Oct 23 20:01:01 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa References: <199810231804.OAA29661@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: <199810240101.AA28299@world.std.com> > > Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? What about the Huntington Computer Project programs in various disciplines... I have a set of those at home... They were kind of neat since they attempted to help teach concepts in math, physics, chemistry using BASIC programs written as games... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Oct 23 20:07:38 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sethm@loomcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: UL? (Was: PDP-11/70 rescued! In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 23, 98 05:18:53 pm Message-ID: <199810240107.SAA03217@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 346 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/8b66aefb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 23 19:30:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <199810231939.PAA03646@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@pop.cgocable.net" at Oct 23, 98 03:44:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 788 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981024/85c2ddc9/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 23 20:15:39 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: TurboDOS Message-ID: <19981024011539.14552.qmail@brouhaha.com> Does anyone know whether TurboDOS (an improved CP/M clone) is still available? A web search only turned up an entirely different TurboDOS for Atari computers. Cheers, Eric From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Oct 23 20:45:06 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators Message-ID: <3e7674ce.36313122@aol.com> i've got slackware 3.0 two disk set somewhere around here i'll let go for $5 In a message dated 10/23/98 8:30:17 AM US Eastern Standard Time, bwish@pcfa.org writes: > You could get someone to burn you a CD copy, or find someone willing to > give away their old distribution CD. I was able to get a copy of RedHat > 5.1 burned for $5. I'm sure you could find someone fairly easily who > would do something similar. > > I ran across a web page that listed people with old distribution CD's who > would either give them to you or let you borrow them. From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Fri Oct 23 17:45:12 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: 128k Mac Schematic needed In-Reply-To: <199810232345.SAA04042@garcon.laidbak.com> References: <199810200502.BAA25691@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199810240239.WAA16527@mail.cgocable.net> > Date sent: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 01:08:02 +0000 > Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: jpero@pop.cgocable.net > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: 128k Mac Schematic needed > > > > > Why not order a PSU/flyback for Mac 128/512K and Plus rebuild/upgrade > > kit from CCS? That should solve everything and a new yoke connector. Remeber this kit, I think don't have that certain yoke connector, ask there to find out just in case, it's not exepenisve item. > > > > I'm not familiar with CCS. Do you have a phone # or URL? Thanks. No URL that I can see... but I have this from www.reapairfaq.org Quote: * Computer Component Source U.S. Voice: 1-800-356-1227.U.S. Fax: 1-800-926-2062. Int. Voice: 1-516-496-8780. Int. Fax: 1-516-496-8784. (Mostly computer monitor parts replacement also, some electronic components including semiconductors.) Unquote. > > Also redo all solder joints on heavy components and all connector > > pins. > > Will do. Excellent, that's important. Jason D. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Fri Oct 23 18:11:12 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: References: <199810231939.PAA03646@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@pop.cgocable.net" at Oct 23, 98 03:44:16 pm Message-ID: <199810240305.XAA25543@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 01:30:33 +0100 (BST) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) > > Wire wrap?...hmmm I have problems with that in ohmic losses even the > > connections is good, soldering them helped a bit but no dice. > > Well, I didn't use wire-wrap for the power or (especially) ground > connections. I also soldered the decoupling caps between the power pins > on the socket. I have _never_ seen resistive losses on a signal > connection. And I've never had trouble with resistive losses in wire-wrap. Done that bypass caps and few fitler caps scattered across 4 seperate board strung with that blue wire wrap from rat shock. I can't believe how much resistance it has and it's magnetic material not non-ferrous stuff like copper and such! I laid out standard layout in a way these boards can be stacked on each other. The wire wrap was just a trial run. Allison, you are asolutely correct on that wire wrap poor for power transfer, hey, I was learning, right??? :-) > > > Have data transfers done with DMA, all memory mapped and irq driven > > to knock subCPU as needed to grab data then place it in CPU's lap. > > Leave CPU alone for processing. How about that? > > Fine for data transfer, but having some I/O ports to send commands to > peripherals, set the base address for DMA transfers, etc is surely > sensible for most machines. Oh yeah the seperate I/O channel, better make it 2 busses? Jason D. > > -tony > > email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 23 22:17:53 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810240317.AA28116@world.std.com> < I have made double-sided boards that ran at 100MHz+. The trick was to us < (a) one side entirely unetched as a ground plane, (b) design all the < tracks as striplines, (c) know the characteristics of the PCB material, < (d) use 100% SMD components with the shortest possible ground < connections, (e) use carefully designed twisted pair lines to carry < signals about if you couldn't route the tracks, (f) terminate everything < properly and (g) take a lot of care and think about what you are doing. (h) accept lower component density on the board to do that. It's very doable but, a 4-6 layer makes it so much less painful for a production system. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 23 22:18:01 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810240318.AA28166@world.std.com> < Are z80's still being produced? Yes. <199810240101.AA28299@world.std.com> Message-ID: <36314802.BEC22B37@rain.org> Megan wrote: > > What about the Huntington Computer Project programs in various > disciplines... I have a set of those at home... They were > kind of neat since they attempted to help teach concepts > in math, physics, chemistry using BASIC programs written as > games... This is only the second time I have heard of the Huntington Computer Project (the first was when I was reading through some of their stuff I have.) How widespread was that project? From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Oct 23 22:33:15 1998 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 23 Oct 1998 20:51:59 GMT . <9810232151.ZM9651@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: In message <9810232151.ZM9651@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>, Pete Turnbull writes: >On Oct 23, 16:03, Hans Franke wrote: > >> Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? > >Probably same place mine went: loaned, not returned. I still have ":More >BASIC Computer Games: 84 Fabulous Games for Your Personal Computer", >though. Small world. One summer home from college, I loaned mine to the kid brother of a girl I liked. A few weeks later I saw their step-father who told me his wife had just left him and taken the kids with her. Never saw any of them (the kid, the girl or the book) again. Brian From cad at gamewood.net Fri Oct 23 22:44:09 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) References: Message-ID: <36314D09.61B6@gamewood.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > > I HATE partial decodes --- it's something else waiting to 'bite you in > > the A..' sometime in the future. > > Who said anything about partial decodes? > > What I was suggesting was to AND the top 100 address lines (if you can > make a CPU clocking at 1GHz, then you can make a 100 input AND gate). > That gives you an 'I/O page selected' signal, which can be system-wide. > Now decode the bottom 28 address lines fully, AND with the I/O page > selected signal, and use the result as the chip select signal for an I/O > chip. > > That's fully decoded. The I/O is in its own page at the top of memory > (like on a PDP11, where it works very well), and you can use the same > instructions to access memory and I/O. > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > -tony Hi Tony: O.K. You have described _complete_ decoding, but the description _implies_ that you _may_ just check a few lines, and make a decision on the basis of that. The possible problem that I was seeing, is that IF the description of how things are separated is obvious that _partial_ decoding will work for most things, then people (some) will be lazy and, save a few clock cycles, or speed up a routine, 'for now' --- ignoring the problems later. Chuck From thomas at 0000000.com Fri Oct 23 23:16:51 1998 From: thomas at 0000000.com (Thomas Poff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: ZILOG article in South China Morning Post Message-ID: <199810240429.VAA23876@0000000.com> Hi, Since I was sorta plugging using the Z180 in consumer electronics earlier today and this thread about the Z80 is running around, I tho't I'd post this link. The article covers Zilog history in brief and where they think they're headed. Zilog has been plugging the Z8 for awhile but I think the Z180 represents the company's real family jewels. Thomas ---- Revamped Zilog aims for the top in chip markets ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.scmp.com/news/template/Tec-Template.idc?artid=19981019192016031&top=tec&template=Default.htx&maxfieldsize=4561 From handyman at sprintmail.com Fri Oct 23 11:34:25 1998 From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: Why do some of us collect old computers ? References: <199810232305.QAA02836@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <3630B011.6FC76D6@sprintmail.com> I have sometimes wondered why some of the people on this forum want to fool around with these old computers.. Which brings up I hope an interesting discussion topic.. Why do some of us want to collect these old computers. ?? Personally I have around 90 computers, and possibly 30 monitors and printers in my collection. Many Boxes of Old manuals, computer magazines, and thousands of old computer programs on thousands of diskettes. All from the Pre-DOS era.. Most people think I am crazy for hanging on to all this stuff. So why do I do it..? When I make an appointment to see a Mental Therapist perhaps I will have a better answer, but for now I think its because of my early experience with computers in the late 70's.. I remember like it was yesterday in 1976 seeing a Commodore Pet 2001 8K RAM computer at a local electronics store. I looked in awe fascinated at the thought of owning a machine with such obviously unlimited power. I watched in amazement as it went through its demo program with actual graphics.. If only I could raise $599.00 for it.. I was in my early 20's newly married and dirt poor so it didn't happen. Then in 1977 I visited my favorite store Radio Shack, where I owned almost one of everything in the store.. Really! And then I noticed something, there is was in all its glory on a pedestal in the middle of the store, a crowd was huddled around it. It was a TRS-80 Model 1, 4K RAM, Level one basic computer,.. Only $595.00 for the Keyboard, monitor, and cassette.. I was still dirt poor, but the manager of the store said the magic phrase " We can finance it for you "... Without thinking another thought driven by pure impulse I said "I want one"!!! He then added sorry you will have to wait about 6 weeks, they are on special order only.. I signed the loan application and waited for what seemed like eternity 3 weeks for my computer.. At the time I was a Guitar Player playing professionally in Night Clubs for a living, I would come home at 2 am in the morning and stay up all night writing BASIC programs on this computer on this power house of a machine.. My friends were amazed at it, and relatives were impressed, my Wife hated it no doubt I spent way to much time on it.. Somehow I felt like it would change my life, and it did.. In only 1 year I gave up playing professionally and moved my Wife and I to Dallas/Fort Worth Texas in hopes of a Job at Tandy Corporation.. I was turned down because of no working experience in computers (I did have 2 yrs training in electronics), however next day I secured an entry level job at a computer company that specialized in communications. That was 22 years ago, today I own my own business specializing in Networks , LANS, WANS.. I have owned my business (Just myself) for now 9 years. I work on 400Mhz Pentium based Servers with lighting speed and totally enjoy it., but I still get my biggest kick from booting my old Osborne 01 computer or my TRS-80 model 1 computer and watching them clunk along at it 2 Mhz, no graphics, no sound, just old fashioned text.. I remember the old console radio's I used to tear apart in the 50's as a kid are now worth thousands of dollars, and know that old computers will also be worth thousands as time goes on, but its more than monetary value to me. Somehow I think these old computers take me back in time, and perhaps make me feel the excitement and the energy I did with my first computer in 1977.. So what's Your story ?, why do some of you hang on to all this crap.. Phil... From rexstout at uswest.net Sat Oct 24 01:08:19 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: Why do some of us collect old computers ? References: <199810232305.QAA02836@loomcom.com> <3630B011.6FC76D6@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: <36316ED3.D25BA3C0@uswest.net> > Why do some of us want to collect these old computers. ?? Because they're fun! It's an adventure! You never know what will happen next with an old computer... A bad diode here, a dried out capacitor there, a bit of caffeine saturated beverage in a few spots over there... And don't forget static electricity! The single most fun thing that ever happens to semiconductors. As for me personally, me computer collection is growing SMALLER. I've sold off various computers over time, and am on my way to getting some new radios. A bit of a side effect of being a ham, it's a hard decision between radios and computers. I've chosen radios at the moment, but computers are still high on the list. Some of those computers I wish I hadn't sold, some I didn't really care about(mostly PC stuff). Perhaps when reality finds me and gives me a good hard whack on the head I'll finally go get a job and eventually be able to afford both(not likely for a while... how many Pentium based UNIX workstations can one afford when cleaning floors at McDonalds?). Assuming I get around to the radio/computer industry(that's what I would prefer, but life sucks, which is why we don't all have an Altair 8800). Enough rambling for now, I'll go wait for the whack. -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Oct 24 00:23:37 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: TurboDOS In-Reply-To: <19981024011539.14552.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 24 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > Does anyone know whether TurboDOS (an improved CP/M clone) is > still available? > > A web search only turned up an entirely different TurboDOS for > Atari computers. > I thought that rang a faint bell... I have about a linear foot of documentation for TurboDos 1.4.. most of it still shrunk-wrapped. Perhaps there are disks within... (go check *now*, John.. don't keep people in suspense) Okay... (huff puff) I'm back. No disks, damn. [I have 25 milk crates full of various docs, computer, pro-video, pro-audio, catalogs, etc,etc,etc.. from the estate of an acquaintance of mine whom God formatted about four years ago... his widow finally cleaned out the library... and called me for some reason. She had previously disposed of the rooms-full of hardware he had...] this is why I have only paperwork. In one crate I find the complete manual, (a three-inch notebook), as well as the 'Programmer's Guide', the '8086 Programmer's Guide' and the '8086 Implementor's Guide'. Then there is the 'EZBAKUP Tape Utility' and the 'COMPRESS DISK Compression Utility. Also there is another inch-thick pile of user's notes' newsletters, Field Bulletins... too much to plow thru tonite. So *now* what do I do... I know!! E-BAY!! I can go to Australia again.. and fly 1st Class this time... No, that would be Morally Reprehensible. And there's too much to copy, at least for me. So: Ideas? Cheers John From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Oct 24 00:34:12 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: UL? (Was: PDP-11/70 rescued! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981023223412.008ff890@agora.rdrop.com> At 05:18 PM 10/23/98 -0700, you wrote: > >I don't know how much to believe any more. But there are some folk here >who know enough to maybe be able to tell me whether it's POSSIBLE, . . . Ok, short form (based on experiences with my 11/70): All of the individual power supplies, fans, etc. in the CPU and assorted chassis (that I have in my system) are single phase, 120VAC supplies. (same in my VAX 11/780) The only part that expects 3-phase power is the 'power controller', and that is as much for convienence as anything, as internally the power controller just splits the phases out into three single phase 120VAC circuits. Now, motors in the large disk drives may be an exeception but I did not pick up any of those... The CPU and memory chassis, along with some number of peripherals can be fed off a 30 amp circuit with some room to spare... YMMV... B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From hhacker at gte.net Sat Oct 24 04:28:31 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college education Message-ID: <08fc01bdff30$ab630bb0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> I do not need to have messages like this sent to me dozens of times! William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, October 23, 1998 5:50 AM Subject: Re: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college education >> >> > You play the game like this: >> > 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. >. >. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Oct 24 09:21:59 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: Why do some of us collect old computers ? Message-ID: <199810241421.AA20342@world.std.com> < Why do some of us want to collect these old computers. ?? As an engineer I like to study old computers as there were often some good ideas or neat tricks encapsulated in them. To have machines off the track I followed (intel/z80 or DEC). This leads me to to aquire Kim-1s, Trackstar128s and the like. To have and use machines I didn't own but worked with. Like PDP-8s, Vaxen SDK85s, sdk88s and others. To extend, modify or otherwise use the systems I did aquire over they years. I may be unique as many of the oldest machines I have are orginal purchases. I have and use machines I could not afford in their time. Systems like the Compupro, Visual 1050, PS2/50z are examples of this. All of my systems are operational, many are used daily or weekly. Allison From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Sat Oct 24 10:04:12 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: 11/70 front panel Message-ID: <199810241504.LAA04217@shell.monmouth.com> > Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:15:43 -0400 (EDT) > From: Ethan Dicks > To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Subject: PDP-11/70 rescued! > Message-ID: <199810231315.JAA24826@user2.infinet.com> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > The Computer Quonset Hut has its first aquisition - a pair of PDP-11/70's > with peripherals. Lucky guy. > My biggest disappointment is that the CPUs have the corporate front panel, > not the programmer's front panel. Anyone have a spare front panel they > want to trade? ;-) Actually the panel is better in some ways (except looks) than the 11/70 front panel. I do prefer the DECdatasystem 570 (I think) 11/70 blue corporate cabinet front panel for style. (The 11/74 used almost the same front panel -- YES I did work with an 11/74 in DEC Princeton... They did exist... The "programmer's" front panel doesn't exist for the PDP11/70. What you probably have is the 11/70 Remote Diagnostic Console which allowed DEC to remotely diagnose the 11/70 (even when hung in a microcode loop or power fail routine) from Colorado. The front panel hooks to a microprocessor controlled card which interfaced to a 300 or 1200/300 baud DEC or Racal Vadic modem (in auto answer mode) when the key is in remote. Colorado would run a diagnostic chain, examine the bus, read error logs etc. > > -ethan > > P.S. ISTR that PDP-11/70's and VAX-11/750's use the same hex-height 39-bit > ECC memory boards. Is this true? I know that 750's had 256K and 1Mb > boards (and eventually 4Mb boards), but every jump up required a new > memory controller (and backplane wires ;-) What's the scoop on the 11/70? They do use the same ones... I don't think the 11/70 supported more than the 256k MS-11K boards, though. Bill ex-DEC Field Service... From kyrrin at jps.net Sat Oct 24 11:03:58 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: Why do some of us collect old computers ? In-Reply-To: <199810241421.AA20342@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981024090358.009463e0@mail.jps.net> For my part, it's for multiple reasons. 1). I have a very healthy respect, and deep affection, for many of the early minicomputers because they're built so much better than almost anything the PC world has turned out. That, and most of them were designed to be field-repairable from the ground up. I grew up with many of the late 70's/early 80's DEC systems, and I very much enjoy working on them. 2). Since NetBSD is readily available, I also enjoy the opportunity to actually put some of these systems into actual production. Example: One of my DECServers is probably going to become our mail/web server once I get a permanent Internet connection established. There's something about being able to point to a running box, and being able to tell a visitor "No, that's not a PC and Billy-boy Gates had absolutely nothing to do with its operating system" that is most satisfying. 3). I hate waste. I'm a pack rat. If I do sell or trade any equipment, I will have taken darn good care of it and at least tried to make sure it works before it goes out the door. You want an example of companies that are far more wasteful of electronic and computer hardware than they want the world to think, have a look at both Boeing and Motorola's Comm Sector. In all fairness, Boeing, at least, maintains an active surplus store. Yes, 95% of the non-PC stuff gets lot-sold to wholesalers, as does most of the test gear, but at least it finds a home. Motorola is not so kind. Any surplus radio or test gear that comes in from the field is crushed and recycled for scrap, no matter if it's brand new or was fractured in an accident of some sort. No Motorola employee(s) that I know of were ever given the opportunity to give any of it a good home. For types of surplus that are not generally available in Washington state, I make an annual scrounging trip to the Bay Area (my former home). I've yet to be disappointed with such trips. Heck, the first one I did back in 1994 netted me a Data I/O UniSite programming system. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 24 11:38:49 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: Bid list In-Reply-To: <199810231557.RAA08258@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > > That's because only several thousand PDP-8's were ever produced. Trust > > me, I don't think you're EVER going to have problems finding a 486 > > motherboard, at least not in the next millenium. > > There has been a time when I thougt that picking up > a ZX80 from dirt is not worth ... and now ? > > Also PET - have you seen the PETs on ePay ? I got > most of my PET/CBMs way below USD 50 - and now ? > Hard to finde won at a reasonable price. But again, my point is that there were so many made that it won't matter. Although my numbers may be wrong according to Tim's post, still though, we're talking orders of magnitude of 486 boards produced more than any PDP-8. Finding 486's 20 years from now will be about as fun as finding a C64 is today. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 24 11:47:13 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981023122900.00929d70@texas.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > >Just tell me why ? Because it has been the tame with old > >8 Bit uPs ? Come on thats just the stupid 'thats the way > >it always has been' idea. Address bus shuld be a) as wide > >as needed and b) if possible not exeeding the Size of the > >basic data unit. > > Again I say, You are not thinking about the future! "As wide as needed"... > Is a very NOW statement. I agree with Arfon on this one. But the problem is, how wide is wide? Even 128 bits will be obsolete in 5 years. Do you know the kind of data we'll be pulling off the internet by then? Voice, stero audio, video (all 2,048 Cable TV channels), not to mention whatever graphics and data. > Micro$oft/PC BIOS..... It doesn't matter! the point was that someone said > "640K is more than enough for anyone" and we all got bit by it. Yep. Short-sightedness (and history) is seemingly repeating on this list. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Oct 24 11:50:46 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: 11/70 front panel In-Reply-To: <199810241504.LAA04217@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at Oct 24, 98 11:04:12 am Message-ID: <199810241650.JAA17918@fraser.sfu.ca> I saw an 11/70 front panel for sale on ebay yesterday!!! You might want to check there for details. I don't have the URL handy. Kevin > > > > Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:15:43 -0400 (EDT) > > From: Ethan Dicks > > To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > Subject: PDP-11/70 rescued! > > Message-ID: <199810231315.JAA24826@user2.infinet.com> > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > The Computer Quonset Hut has its first aquisition - a pair of PDP-11/70's > > with peripherals. > > Lucky guy. > > > My biggest disappointment is that the CPUs have the corporate front panel, > > not the programmer's front panel. Anyone have a spare front panel they > > want to trade? ;-) > > Actually the panel is better in some ways (except looks) than the 11/70 > front panel. > > I do prefer the DECdatasystem 570 (I think) 11/70 blue corporate > cabinet front panel for style. (The 11/74 used almost the same > front panel -- YES I did work with an 11/74 in DEC Princeton... > They did exist... > > The "programmer's" front panel doesn't exist for the PDP11/70. > What you probably have is the 11/70 Remote Diagnostic Console > which allowed DEC to remotely diagnose the 11/70 (even when hung > in a microcode loop or power fail routine) from Colorado. > > The front panel hooks to a microprocessor controlled card which interfaced > to a 300 or 1200/300 baud DEC or Racal Vadic modem (in auto answer > mode) when the key is in remote. Colorado would run a diagnostic chain, > examine the bus, read error logs etc. > > > > > -ethan > > > > P.S. ISTR that PDP-11/70's and VAX-11/750's use the same hex-height 39-bit > > ECC memory boards. Is this true? I know that 750's had 256K and 1Mb > > boards (and eventually 4Mb boards), but every jump up required a new > > memory controller (and backplane wires ;-) What's the scoop on the 11/70? > > They do use the same ones... I don't think the 11/70 supported more than > the 256k MS-11K boards, though. > > > Bill > ex-DEC Field Service... > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 24 11:53:56 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa In-Reply-To: <199810231804.OAA29661@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Ethan Dicks wrote: > can provide one. It depends on logical statements working as follows: > The statement C=(A>B) would set C to 0 if A weren't greater than B, and > would set C=-1 if A were greater than B. Not all micro BASICs support this. > I'm pretty sure Applesoft is onethat does _not_. AppleSoft would logically return a +1 for the above statement rather than a -1. Why the PET returns a -1 is beyond me. Couldn't they have added one more machine instruction to strip off the sign bit? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Oct 24 12:09:29 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: Why do some of us collect old computers ? References: <3.0.5.32.19981024090358.009463e0@mail.jps.net> Message-ID: <363209C8.178E82AA@bigfoot.com> They sure store better in the house than classic cars Bruce Lane wrote: > For my part, it's for multiple reasons. > > 1). I have a very healthy respect, and deep affection, for many of the > early minicomputers because they're built so much better than almost > anything the PC world has turned out. That, and most of them were designed > to be field-repairable from the ground up. I grew up with many of the late > 70's/early 80's DEC systems, and I very much enjoy working on them. > > 2). Since NetBSD is readily available, I also enjoy the opportunity to > actually put some of these systems into actual production. Example: One of > my DECServers is probably going to become our mail/web server once I get a > permanent Internet connection established. There's something about being > able to point to a running box, and being able to tell a visitor "No, > that's not a PC and Billy-boy Gates had absolutely nothing to do with its > operating system" that is most satisfying. > > 3). I hate waste. I'm a pack rat. If I do sell or trade any equipment, I > will have taken darn good care of it and at least tried to make sure it > works before it goes out the door. You want an example of companies that > are far more wasteful of electronic and computer hardware than they want > the world to think, have a look at both Boeing and Motorola's Comm Sector. > > In all fairness, Boeing, at least, maintains an active surplus store. Yes, > 95% of the non-PC stuff gets lot-sold to wholesalers, as does most of the > test gear, but at least it finds a home. > > Motorola is not so kind. Any surplus radio or test gear that comes in from > the field is crushed and recycled for scrap, no matter if it's brand new or > was fractured in an accident of some sort. No Motorola employee(s) that I > know of were ever given the opportunity to give any of it a good home. > > For types of surplus that are not generally available in Washington state, > I make an annual scrounging trip to the Bay Area (my former home). I've yet > to be disappointed with such trips. Heck, the first one I did back in 1994 > netted me a Data I/O UniSite programming system. > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: > http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) > SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own > human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 24 09:18:32 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: Why do some of us collect old computers ? In-Reply-To: <3630B011.6FC76D6@sprintmail.com> from "Phil Clayton" at Oct 23, 98 12:34:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1292 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981024/620e6db8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 24 09:21:54 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:38 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <199810240317.AA28116@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 23, 98 11:17:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1291 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981024/1886881c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 24 09:24:45 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <36314D09.61B6@gamewood.net> from "Charles A Davis" at Oct 23, 98 11:44:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 692 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981024/74a9618c/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 24 12:43:49 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 blstuart@bellsouth.net wrote: > Small world. One summer home from college, I loaned mine to the > kid brother of a girl I liked. A few weeks later I saw their > step-father who told me his wife had just left him and taken > the kids with her. Never saw any of them (the kid, the girl > or the book) again. I'll bet you miss the book most, you nerd. ;) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Oct 24 13:10:02 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: old IBM calculator Message-ID: <19981024181002.7592.qmail@hotmail.com> Today, I briefly attended an Earthwatch conference at the Harvard Science Center. It wasn't as good as it could have been, but what was interesting was the IBM Automatic Sequence-Controlled Calculator, Mark I. This was apparently used by Harvard since 1946 or so. Now, it's in the lobby, or at least most of it. It's an electromechanical machine, no electronic components. Very fun to look at! The plaque said that in modern terms, it would have been 52 Hz and 1.7K RAM. It has one constant panel (dozens of rotary switches), an enormous array of relays, a missing multiplication module, a paper tape module (for output), a paper tape sequencer module (input), two typewriters (input and output), and a punched card device. It was shut off, except for flourescent lights, but I bet it could probably run...it was about 2 m tall and less than 1 m deep. The photos showed that it originally had a lot of pulleys on the back for dealing with paper tape. It is driven by a motor shaft that extends through the whole machine, spinning at 4 rpm. This acted as a clock and drove the tape mechanisms. Seems very easy to use, with proper instructions. I wouldn't mind having this in a hypothetical basement. On the plaque, it says it was used for ray tracing for lens design. Just thought someone would like to know :) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Oct 24 13:27:15 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail "Re: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa" (Oct 24, 9:53) References: Message-ID: <9810241927.ZM11990@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 24, 9:53, Sam Ismail wrote: > Subject: Re: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa > On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > can provide one. It depends on logical statements working as follows: > > The statement C=(A>B) would set C to 0 if A weren't greater than B, and > > would set C=-1 if A were greater than B. Not all micro BASICs support this. > > I'm pretty sure Applesoft is onethat does _not_. > > AppleSoft would logically return a +1 for the above statement rather than > a -1. Why the PET returns a -1 is beyond me. Couldn't they have added > one more machine instruction to strip off the sign bit? The PET is actually following the more common convention. The bitwise complement of 0 (all zero bits) is -1 (all one bits), at least in a 2's-complement environment. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From marvin at rain.org Sat Oct 24 14:40:53 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Why do some of us collect old computers ? References: Message-ID: <36322D45.7D07A0A2@rain.org> > Why do some of us want to collect these old computers. ?? Well, excluding the fact that I am a packrat, here are some justifications in no particular order. 1) Saving examples of early computers from that great dumpster in the sky. 2) It is neat to have some of the stuff I couldn't afford when these things came out. 3) The fun of hunting ... and finding a rare (or seems to be rare) piece, i.e. the IBM TPC I recently got at an auction. 4) Finding out years after something was acquired, that other people actually consider it somewhat valuable. 5) As with many of us, I would like to start a computer museum ... and I already have a lot of the stuff that could make it interesting. 6) When I have the time, I love troubleshooting, and some of these beasts provide a *lot* of fun :). From marvin at rain.org Sat Oct 24 14:44:03 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Bid list References: Message-ID: <36322E03.2A004FEC@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Although my numbers may be wrong according to Tim's post, still though, > we're talking orders of magnitude of 486 boards produced more than any > PDP-8. Finding 486's 20 years from now will be about as fun as finding a > C64 is today. You said PDP-8 computer; did you also imply the whole family or just that one model? I would think the difference in production numbers could be significant :)! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 24 12:31:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 24, 98 09:53:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 984 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981024/aa0d53a9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 24 12:33:48 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: 11/70 front panel In-Reply-To: <199810241504.LAA04217@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at Oct 24, 98 11:04:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 625 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981024/269aaebe/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Sat Oct 24 14:57:55 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Mattel Aquarius on ebay References: <199810222329.TAA08266@armigeron.com> <3.0.1.32.19981022095609.00f21370@pc> Message-ID: <36323143.816F7C71@rain.org> Another ebay item. Current price is $13.50 and the auction ends about 8:15 PM PDT. The URL is: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=36435262 From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Oct 24 15:21:23 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: old IBM calculator questions Message-ID: <19981024202124.4255.qmail@hotmail.com> Here are a couple of questions inspired by my encounter with the IBM Automatic Sequence-Controlled Calculator Mark I. For one thing, if this thing could perform all of the basic calculations to many decimal places in a short time, why build an ENIAC, many times bigger, and less reliable, when this machine could have been scaled if necessary? It had been in development, and I'm sure the military was working on relay-based machines as well. So why the choice of digital with vacuum tubes? Also, the plaque at the Mark I said that it was decimal. I am slightly familiar with flip-flops and stuff, but what would be a way to make a decimal computer? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From gene at ehrich.com Sat Oct 24 16:24:04 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Riddles & old stuff for sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199810242122.OAA16197@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Take a look at my web site when you get a chance. Lots of older things for sale plus some VERY INTERESTING riddles. http://www.voicenet.com/~generic gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 24 16:24:35 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Bid list In-Reply-To: <36322E03.2A004FEC@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote: > > Although my numbers may be wrong according to Tim's post, still though, > > we're talking orders of magnitude of 486 boards produced more than any > > PDP-8. Finding 486's 20 years from now will be about as fun as finding a > > C64 is today. > > You said PDP-8 computer; did you also imply the whole family or just that > one model? I would think the difference in production numbers could be > significant :)! That's probably what I was thinking about when I posted that original number. The "Straight"-8 was produced in numbers around 3,000. I hope my anecdote is right this time. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 24 16:26:03 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > I find returning all 1's or all 0's to be the logical thing to do > actually. In machine language, sure. But in BASIC, it makes no sense to the programmer to return a -1. > Particularly when the AND and OR operators you have are true bitwise > ones (am I correct that in Applesoft 4 AND 8 = 1? On a TRS80 or PET it's > 0). Having bitwise AND and OR is clearly a Good Thing. AppleSoft does not have bitwise AND or OR unfortunately (it was sorely missed by me). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 24 16:27:21 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: old IBM calculator questions In-Reply-To: <19981024202124.4255.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Here are a couple of questions inspired by my encounter with the > IBM Automatic Sequence-Controlled Calculator Mark I. > For one thing, if this thing could perform all of the basic > calculations to many decimal places in a short time, why build an > ENIAC, many times bigger, and less reliable, when this machine > could have been scaled if necessary? It had been in development, and > I'm sure the military was working on relay-based machines as well. > So why the choice of digital with vacuum tubes? Speed for one. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From gene at ehrich.com Sat Oct 24 16:29:58 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Why do some of us collect old computers ? In-Reply-To: <363209C8.178E82AA@bigfoot.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19981024090358.009463e0@mail.jps.net> Message-ID: <199810242128.OAA14630@mxu4.u.washington.edu> My reasons are probably different than most in the group in that I don't actually collect the old computers. I started in the business at IBM in 1964 and have a great deal of background in older IBM equipment and enjoy reminiscing about it here. I also have been very active with Commodore and the IBM PC. I mainly buy old stuff to play with it for a while and then sell it on my garage sale web site gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Oct 24 16:36:05 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 24, 98 02:26:03 pm Message-ID: <199810242136.OAA17120@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 780 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981024/82345c8c/attachment.ksh From headcase at eclipse.co.uk Sat Oct 24 14:59:11 1998 From: headcase at eclipse.co.uk (Jim Bunting) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: FS in UK - Intel & Cromemco Etc. circa 1974 & 1980 Message-ID: <000201bdff95$f43584c0$18802ed4@default> To anybody who couldn't read my original message because of html etc:- I thought it best to post it again - but then I would wouldn't I? Thanks to all those of you who replied about the computer equipment I'm selling I read all the replies up to about second week in September but lost those together with a massive pile of un-read mail up to a few weeks back.. If you havent had a reply - sorry - over confidence or Bill's bugs - I still haven't figured out which I've sorted through all my computers and equipment and listed them on my web pages .http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/ together with photos etc The Intell, Addmaster, Roytron, Mesonix etc. stuff is on http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/sellintel.htm I have listed all the information I have, together with photographs of each item. Unfortunately I seem to have lost the folder containing all the original documentation but most of the stuff is circa 74/75. The Cromemcos and software stuff are on http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/sellcromemco.htm There are three working Cromemco Systems circa 1978 to 1984 - two System Three's and one Z-2H - together with a pile of instruction and technical manuals. I have listed some of the more interesting software on some of the one hundred and fifty (approx) 8" disks. There may be some software or manuals that are needed by subscribers to this list - that shouldn't be bundled for sale with the equipment. If having seen my web site - it's not bad for someone who never progressed past machine code - you think I have, or even might have, something you want e-mail me and I will try to reply promptly. Unfortunately most of the stuff is stored 150 miles north of here in Worcester, so I won't get the chance to delve deeper very often. It may offend some sensibilities that I will be listing most of the stuff on eBay just as soon as I have time. Those of you who think I should be less grasping should remember that I bought all this stuff new before most of you were born. In the mean time I'm open to any offers and and will pay/arrange shipping to most countries Otherwise see it on eBay in due course. Jim Bunting - headcase@eclipse.co.uk M.V. Great Gull, Double Locks Hotel, Canal Banks, Exeter Ship Canal, Exeter, Devon, U.K. EX2 6LT. Phone No. 44 (0) 1392 493311 (On Board) From headcase at eclipse.co.uk Sat Oct 24 15:02:55 1998 From: headcase at eclipse.co.uk (Jim Bunting) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Intellec 8 -v- Altair 8800 Message-ID: <000301bdff95$f62d0f00$18802ed4@default> I posted the following - now translated message - on 23 October '98 Having had my wrist slapped, I apologise to all for such a very basic lack of knowledge and understanding. No doubt the same applies to the message When collecting vintage/classic computers it would seem to me that the apparently much sort after Altair 8800 is the Model T to the Intellec's R.R. Silver Ghost. At the time - 1974 - I thought the Altair was a very very cheap copy of my very very very expensive Intellec - and I still do! But then I would, wouldn't I? Have I fallen for all the eBay hype or have I've been wrong all these years? Jim Bunting - headcase@eclipse.co.uk M.V. Great Gull, Double Locks Hotel, Canal Banks, Exeter Ship Canal, Exeter, Devon, U.K. EX2 6LT. Phone No. 44 (0) 1392 493311 (On Board) From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 24 16:38:33 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: TurboDOS In-Reply-To: (message from John Lawson on Fri, 23 Oct 1998 22:23:37 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981024213833.19458.qmail@brouhaha.com> I asked about TurboDOS, and John Lawson replied: > In one crate I find the complete manual, (a three-inch notebook), > as well as the 'Programmer's Guide', the '8086 Programmer's Guide' > and the '8086 Implementor's Guide'. Then there is the 'EZBAKUP Tape > Utility' and the 'COMPRESS DISK Compression Utility. TurboDOS for the 8086? I hadn't heard of that. I'm mostly looking for the Z-80 version, although an 8086 version does sound somewhat interesting. > And there's too much to copy, at least for me. My theory has been that if it's worth photocopying, it's worth scanning, because even though it takes a bit more effort, it will help more people. I've been scanning DECsystem-10 hardware documentation lately: http://www.36bit.org/dec/ I'd be delighted to scan TurboDOS documentation and put it on the web, but at the moment I've got too much of a backlog. Cheers, Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 24 16:47:17 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Sat, 24 Oct 1998 09:47:13 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981024214717.19530.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sam wrote: > I agree with Arfon on this one. But the problem is, how wide is wide? > Even 128 bits will be obsolete in 5 years. Do you know the kind of data > we'll be pulling off the internet by then? Voice, stero audio, video (all > 2,048 Cable TV channels), not to mention whatever graphics and data. I beg to differ, and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I'm willing to bet $1000 that there will be no practical applications requiring processors with 128-bit addressing by October 24, 2003. Any takers? > Yep. Short-sightedness (and history) is seemingly repeating on this list. We'll see. This is not the same shortsightedness as the old series of claims: You'll never need more than 1K of RAM. You'll never need more than 4K of RAM. You'll never need more than 16K of RAM. You'll never need more than 32K of RAM. You'll never need more than 64K of RAM. You'll never need more than 128K of RAM. You'll never need more than 256K of RAM. You'll never need more than 512K of RAM. You'll never need more than 640K of RAM. You'll never need more than 1M of RAM. You'll never need more than 4M of RAM. You'll never need more than 16M of RAM. You'll never need more than 64M of RAM. You'll never need more than 256M of RAM. And yes, I've heard every single one of these statements made at one time or another. I haven't yet heard anyone claim that I'll never need more than 512M of RAM. My current Linux workstation has 384M of RAM, of which I routinely use more than 300M for large compiles (and I do mean LARGE compiles, some require over 500M virtual) and for image processing. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 24 16:50:46 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Sat, 24 Oct 1998 09:53:56 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981024215046.19542.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > AppleSoft would logically return a +1 for the above statement rather than > a -1. Why the PET returns a -1 is beyond me. Couldn't they have added > one more machine instruction to strip off the sign bit? No, because then it would return 32767, which is even worse. Remember, in two's complement arithmetic, -1 is all ones. This means that having predicates return -1 for true is actually useful if you want to use the return value as a mask for boolean operations on bit fields. In practice it doesn't really matter; anything non-zero is considered true. You should really be doing arithmetic on boolean values anyhow. :-) [Smiley because I've done it many times myself.] Eric From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Oct 24 17:00:20 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: old IBM calculator questions Message-ID: <19981024220020.24868.qmail@hotmail.com> What kind of speed gain? > >On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > >> Here are a couple of questions inspired by my encounter with the >> IBM Automatic Sequence-Controlled Calculator Mark I. >> For one thing, if this thing could perform all of the basic >> calculations to many decimal places in a short time, why build an >> ENIAC, many times bigger, and less reliable, when this machine >> could have been scaled if necessary? It had been in development, and >> I'm sure the military was working on relay-based machines as well. >> So why the choice of digital with vacuum tubes? > >Speed for one. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Oct 24 17:10:25 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <19981024221025.18084.qmail@hotmail.com> I guess I don't have $1000 to bet, but I wouldn't be quite that sure. No application _requires_ any number of bits > 1. It's a question of performance. After all, a Z80 could have 512M RAM, just not contiguously (and would probably require a lot of hardware to access it). There are plenty of tasks that can use up much more than 4GB ram, most notably databases and various graphics. 1GB is currently the amount of RAM a high-end server can be expected to have, and in CGI and engineering applications, even this isn't enough. To sum up, volume always fills capacity, as the highway engineers that are tearing up boston haven't learned yet. But, what's the amount of RAM a 128-bit processor can access? >I beg to differ, and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I'm >willing to bet $1000 that there will be no practical applications requiring >processors with 128-bit addressing by October 24, 2003. Any takers? > >> Yep. Short-sightedness (and history) is seemingly repeating on this list. > >We'll see. > >This is not the same shortsightedness as the old series of claims: > > You'll never need more than 1K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 4K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 16K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 32K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 64K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 128K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 256K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 512K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 640K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 1M of RAM. > You'll never need more than 4M of RAM. > You'll never need more than 16M of RAM. > You'll never need more than 64M of RAM. > You'll never need more than 256M of RAM. > >And yes, I've heard every single one of these statements made at one >time or another. I haven't yet heard anyone claim that I'll never need >more than 512M of RAM. My current Linux workstation has 384M of RAM, >of which I routinely use more than 300M for large compiles (and I do mean >LARGE compiles, some require over 500M virtual) and for image processing. > >Eric > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Oct 24 17:14:03 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Anyone Have Pinout for M8047-AA SLU Ports??? Message-ID: <199810242214.PAA21209@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi All: I have an M8047-AA 2 port SLU/boot rom card. It's a dual-height Q bus card. I am looking for the pinout of the 2 serial ports. They are 10 pin IDC headers, with one pin removed to ensure correct polarity. The headers look like: o o o o o o o X o o The "o"s are pins, the "X" is the missing pin. This is for an 11/23, the card is configured with what appears to be a boot ROM, I'm assuming that one of the serial ports comes up as the console. Thanks in advance, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From kyrrin at jps.net Sat Oct 24 17:16:22 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Items sold Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981024151622.00953880@mail.jps.net> The H89 system I advertised in here a while back has been sold. A fellow out of Jacksonville, FL was the lucky buyer (and you don't want to know what the shipping cost!) The DECMate III floppies and card have also been claimed. Thanks to all for your interest. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Oct 24 17:23:31 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810242223.AA22796@world.std.com> < I was just pointing out that it's _possible_ to make high-speed stuff at < home given a lot of care and a bit of knowledge. The myth that it's < impossible to homebrew at above 10MHz is just that - a myth. It's not < easy, but it's possible. Having also done it I know that it's not for the faint of heart. You have to have an idea about fast pulses and RF in real life circuits to know what works and what may not. FYI: My favorite breadboard technique is dead bug. Take a sheet of copper clad and call that ground, mount devices inverted (legs up!) and bend any pins that are gound to ground. Small cap from Vcc to the ground plane and start wiring. Critical lead lengths can be very short. I've used this trick for over 20 years and into the GHz region successfully. Looks ugly but it goes together fast and works better than a PC layout! It's also non fussy in that it applies well to RF as digital circuits. Allison From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Oct 24 17:23:55 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <19981024222355.10105.qmail@hotmail.com> Please disreagrd this message! I'm really sleepy....I missed the fact that a 128-bit processor would access over 4 billion times the amount a 32 bit one would. I forgot all about the 64-bit ones. In this case, I would agree, and go as far as to say that humanity will _never access 300 tredecillion bytes, since to do so would require us to dissassemble several planets. This had been discussed when I wasn't paying attention... >contiguously (and would probably require a lot of hardware to access >it). There are plenty of tasks that can use up much more than 4GB ram, >most notably databases and various graphics. 1GB is currently the >amount of RAM a high-end server can be expected to have, and in CGI >and engineering applications, even this isn't enough. To sum up, >volume always fills capacity, as the highway engineers that are >tearing up boston haven't learned yet. But, what's the amount of RAM >a 128-bit processor can access? >>I beg to differ, and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. >I'm >>willing to bet $1000 that there will be no practical applications >requiring >>processors with 128-bit addressing by October 24, 2003. Any takers? >> >>> Yep. Short-sightedness (and history) is seemingly repeating on this >list. >> >>We'll see. >> >>This is not the same shortsightedness as the old series of claims: >> >> You'll never need more than 1K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 4K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 16K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 32K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 64K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 128K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 256K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 512K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 640K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 1M of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 4M of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 16M of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 64M of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 256M of RAM. >> >>And yes, I've heard every single one of these statements made at one >>time or another. I haven't yet heard anyone claim that I'll never need >>more than 512M of RAM. My current Linux workstation has 384M of RAM, >>of which I routinely use more than 300M for large compiles (and I do >mean >>LARGE compiles, some require over 500M virtual) and for image >processing. >> >>Eric >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 24 17:22:35 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Anyone Have Pinout for M8047-AA SLU Ports??? Message-ID: <981024182235.222001ae@trailing-edge.com> >I am looking for the pinout of the 2 serial ports. They are 10 pin IDC >headers, with one pin removed to ensure correct polarity. >The headers look like: > > o o o o o > o o X o o From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 24 17:13:21 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 24, 98 02:26:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1726 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981024/3556c9c7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 24 17:26:29 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <199810242223.AA22796@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 24, 98 06:23:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 564 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981024/647f0daa/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 24 17:30:18 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <19981024221025.18084.qmail@hotmail.com> (maxeskin@hotmail.com) References: <19981024221025.18084.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <19981024223018.19762.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Max Eskin" wrote: > No application _requires_ any number of bits > 1. It's a question of > performance. After all, a Z80 could have 512M RAM, just not > contiguously (and would probably require a lot of hardware to access > it). OK, then the Z80 system will require 19 bits of address. Sure, some of those bits aren't coming directly out of the CPU, but they're coming from somewhere. So how does your example show that no application requires more than one bit of addressing? In two bytes you can't even write a virtual memory system to page the rest of the memory in, let alone provide a place to page it. > There are plenty of tasks that can use up much more than 4GB ram, > most notably databases and various graphics. Certainly. That's why high-end machines have gone from 32-bit (4G) addressing to 64-bit addressing. But many people seem to have the misconception that doubling the size of the address bus just doubles the addressable memory (or otherwise increases it by a relatively small amount). In actuality, *each* added address bit doubles the addressable memory, so going from 32 to 64 bits of address ups the space from 4.3x10^9 bytes to 1.8x10^19 bytes. > But, what's the amount of RAM > a 128-bit processor can access? 3.4x10^38 bytes. I previously posted an back-of-the-envelope calculation showing that current DRAM technology would require more silicon than exists in the solar system in order to produce this much memory. Even allowing for technological improvements over the next five years (Moore's law), it would still take most if not all of the silicon in the solar system. It's possible that some breakthrough in storage density will occur in the next five years, but even an improvement by a factor of 1000 is not going to be enough to make 128-bit addressing obsolete. In practical terms, it won't even make 64-bit addressing obsolete. Video is commonly referenced as an application requiring phenomenal amounts of storage. If every person currently on this planet had their entire life (say 75 years) recorded on NTSC video with no compression, that would only require 3.7x10^26 bytes of memory. 128-bits is enough to address a trillion times this much memory. I'm not going to go out on a limb and say that no one will ever need this much addressable memory. But I will say that within my lifetime, no one will. Hmmm... maybe I shouldn't post this until *after* I've taken a few $1000 bets from naive people. :-) Eric From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Oct 24 18:21:33 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Anyone Have Pinout for M8047-AA SLU Ports??? In-Reply-To: <981024182235.222001ae@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 24, 98 06:22:35 pm Message-ID: <199810242321.QAA06564@fraser.sfu.ca> Thanks, Tim. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From fauradon at pclink.com Sat Oct 24 18:49:39 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Fairchild Channel F Message-ID: <002601bdffa8$f739f080$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Hi, I finally got around to going to the thrift store and picked up that Channel F. It cost me $10 and has Carts number 12 Baseball and 16 Dodge it. Whoever wanted it please respond to fauradon@pclink.com Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sat Oct 24 18:58:57 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Educational subsidies In-Reply-To: <19981017200125.6351.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Slashdot.org has a story explaining that the UK school system can't > afford NT 5 and are considering another OS. In light of this, people > were bringing up Apple's success in schools in contrast to the current > situation. I thought that Acorn dominated the UK school system? Perhaps I heard wrong. At any rate, it's definitely country, if not region, specific, as I don't recall ever hearing from anyone around here that they went to a school with an Apple lab. My high school had TRS-80s. Model IIIs, I think. Another one that I visited had Ataris. Three people that I know had labs full of PETs in school, though one of those labs was at a technical school and not high school or elementary school. My high school had a single Apple //e in the physics lab, but that's all. Also several PETs in the music department, and an Altair 8800, which all disappeared a year or two before I got there (I went to the open house while my brother attended the school). One of those PETs is sitting in the other room as I type this (my brother bought it from the high school music teacher). The TRS-80s were replaced with some rediculous things from France while I was attending the school, but I can't remember the name of the computer even though I saw one at the Salvation Army a while back. They were PC semi-compatibles, I think. The college I attended before entering university had at least two labs full of Commodore PCs. Sun and DEC seem to dominate the university I attend, with a sprinkling of SGI, Macintosh, and Amiga. Quebec government subsidies supported those things from France, and I don't think Apple really had much of a foothold in the educational market here. I could be wrong, of course, but when I mention PETs to people in my classes now, often they mention that those were the first machines that they used back in high school or elementary. I don't get the same response for Apples, which were often owned at home but not used at school. (And I was an Apple user back in my high school days, so I do mention it.) -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From spc at armigeron.com Sun Oct 25 19:40:48 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <19981024214717.19530.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 24, 98 09:47:17 pm Message-ID: <199810260140.UAA24620@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 815 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981025/01d4cb20/attachment.ksh From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Oct 24 16:41:43 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Zenith Luggable Message-ID: <199810250145.VAA09551@smtp.interlog.com> I have a Zenith luggable ZFA-161-52 with the popup fdds. I've dug into Dejanews archives but haven't found too much on it. I know the model # indicates a Z(enith) F( 48 TPI double sided) A( amber screen ) 161 model 5 (slots) 2 (fdds'). There's 2 Zenith newsgroups , one of which seems devoted to newer machines and the other Z-100 which is mainly porn spam. There's also a program archive on Oakland. There also seems to be some confusion as to what is a Z-100 machine which sometimes refers to only the 110 and 120 models and other times to anything with a 100 #. Apparently some of the models ran CP/M and had a S-100 bus and also ran ZDOS ,compatible with MSDOS. Mine has some 1983 and 1984 dates on it and boots from DOS as apparently all would. The built-in monitor system indicates 320k Ram. It has an 8088 CPU on one of the cards but I don't see another processor for CP/M. Any pointers to a source of info or info on this machine would be appreciated. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sat Oct 24 21:55:22 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Odd Meas. Units In-Reply-To: <199810210748.DAA02640@armigeron.com> References: <4.1.19981020163952.00d66360@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <4.1.19981025135452.00db88a0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 03:48 AM 21-10-98 -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > -spc (5 femtofortnights high, approximately 8-) Measured in vacuo I assume :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sat Oct 24 21:55:42 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Educational subsidies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Doug Spence wrote: > Sun and DEC seem to dominate the university I attend, with a sprinkling of > SGI, Macintosh, and Amiga. And PCs running WinNT and/or Linux, too. Don't know how I forgot those, except that I haven't had to deal with them myself yet. :) A couple of years back they had quite a few boxes running OS/2. They've recently renovated one of the Sun labs and I think some of the older Sun boxen (3/50?) have disappeared. I'll have to find out what happened to them. -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From fauradon at pclink.com Sat Oct 24 22:01:10 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Week End Finds Message-ID: <003e01bdffc3$b8ddef60$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Hi Mike, Did you receive your PC-1500 yet? Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ -----Original Message----- From: Mike To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, October 19, 1998 8:20 PM Subject: Re: Week End Finds >>Does any one have docs on the pc-1500? Any info would be appreciated. A web >>search didn't bring anything more than the specs, I would like to find >>programming info if that is possible. >>Thanks >>Francois > > >Hi Francois, > >I just ordered one of these machines ( inbound mail ) send me some mail to >dogas@leading.net I should have it by week end... >- Mike > From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Oct 24 21:59:50 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: TurboDOS In-Reply-To: <19981024213833.19458.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 24 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > I asked about TurboDOS, and John Lawson replied: [snip] > > as well as the 'Programmer's Guide', the '8086 Programmer's Guide' > > and the '8086 Implementor's Guide'. Then there is the 'EZBAKUP Tape > > Utility' and the 'COMPRESS DISK Compression Utility. > > TurboDOS for the 8086? I hadn't heard of that. I'm mostly looking for > the Z-80 version, although an 8086 version does sound somewhat interesting. > Most of this stuff *is* for the Z80... just the two manuals which seem supplemental and are 8086-specific. > > And there's too much to copy, at least for me. > > My theory has been that if it's worth photocopying, it's worth scanning, > because even though it takes a bit more effort, it will help more people. > I've been scanning DECsystem-10 hardware documentation lately: > > http://www.36bit.org/dec/ > I have tried scanning manuals a few times, sans much luck. Perhaps you could e-mail me privately with some knowledge on getting text scanned properly... or maybe my sorry software is braindead in the text dept. I have tried making jpegs, but by the time they're composited, tweaked, and compressed, they're mostly illegible. :( I have an 11x14 Artiscan Z1-1200, if that's helpful. I have a **huge** pile of pix, books, and doc I'd like to get into a useable archive for y'all... but the task is daunting and my playtime is short and mostly spoken for. Sigh. > I'd be delighted to scan TurboDOS documentation and put it on the web, > but at the moment I've got too much of a backlog. > See above. Does anyone else on The List require the documentation for TurboDos 1.4?? If not.. perhaps I should just send this stuff to Eric. I sure don't need it, and if I do in the future, well, I'll know just where it is. Cheers John From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sat Oct 24 22:01:46 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Microfortnights In-Reply-To: <981020095035.21a000e9@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19981025135812.00d8c460@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 09:50 AM 20-10-98 -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >Why do you have to remember when you have VMS HELP available? :-) Hey, that's cheating :-) You're also luck that TIMEPROMPTWAIT starts with TIME. As far as I remember, wild carding within SYSGEN is not exactly optimal. Wildcards match the first occurrence.... The story I heard about uFortnights was a bit of an "in joke" within VMS development. There was obviously a concerted effort to make VMS documentation as dry as IBM stuff is perceived, so the developers put up this new unit to see how far up the chain of cleansing it would go before being "expunged". I hear that there was some surprise and embarrassment when it escaped to customers. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From mbg at world.std.com Sat Oct 24 22:18:32 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa References: <199810231804.OAA29661@user2.infinet.com> <199810240101.AA28299@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810250318.AA04320@world.std.com> > >This is only the second time I have heard of the Huntington Computer >Project (the first was when I was reading through some of their stuff I >have.) How widespread was that project? I really don't have any idea... I remember first coming across some of their stuff back in the early 70's (IIRC). I kept it, and added to my collection as I found stuff over the years. I haven't seen anything about it since then. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From nerdware at laidbak.com Sat Oct 24 22:25:02 1998 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Why do some of us collect old computers ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981024090358.009463e0@mail.jps.net> References: <199810241421.AA20342@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810250322.WAA14660@garcon.laidbak.com> For me, it's because I find it fascinating to watch an industry grow up that I was around for the beginning (at least pc's). Some of the machines in my collection were ones that I always wanted but could never afford. I lusted after a KIM-1 when I was in high school, but couldn't afford one. Now, I have two and one belonged to Stan Ockers, one of the co- authors of "The First Book of KIM" and it was used to debug and print out the code listings used in the book. Apple II's were out of my reach as were Macs. Now, I own a dozen or so. The main focus of my collection is education. I exhibit at area libraries and I'm talking to local schools about giving presentations to their CompSci classes. Too many kids (man, now I sound like an old guy.............) have no clue about where their fancy PII 3d DVD-enhanced boxes actually came from. (Of course the kids who use Macs are a much brighter group overall............oh, stop it.) I just feel that to better appreciate today's technology you should have an understanding of where it came from. Plus, having tangible examples always makes history palatable for me. Actually, all the above is really just fancy words to justify my incurable case of packrattitis, and so far my wife is buying it......... Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Oct 24 23:17:03 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <199810250417.AA09327@world.std.com> < It's a right pain to do complex digital circuitry like this. Great for < RF amplifiers, etc, but not so easy to run data buses across the board. < Although you _can_ make striplines using strips of copperclad stuck down < to the groundplane if you have to. for bussed logic is can work. The trick I used was 2sided clad board with one side sliced to produce 8 narrow strips as a bus with it's own groundplane. It was elevated over the chips with some screws (also passed the ground) and then wires picked off the needed signals. this approach was used to hook a 8049 MCU to a DDS (digital synth) that was used to drive a PLL. The core of a DDS is a (this case) 24bit parallel adder and 24 bit accumulator plus a 24bit constant register. A lot of parallel bussed signals. It was all clocked at 16.777216(2^24)mhz. A ram card would be harder but I've done one (dram!) that was fairly small (1Mx8 using 256kx1 dips) and one off. busing is a pain only in that it's a lot of repetitive wiring. But being visible it was easy to see signal progression. The results worked well and lacked the ringing that sometimes plagues boards of two sided design. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 24 23:32:21 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <19981024222355.10105.qmail@hotmail.com> (maxeskin@hotmail.com) References: <19981024222355.10105.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <19981025043221.21155.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Max Eskin" wrote: > Please disreagrd this message! I'm really sleepy....I missed the > fact that a 128-bit processor would access over 4 billion times the > amount a 32 bit one would. Still a bit sleepy, I'd venture :-) A 128-bit address is sufficient for a factor 7.9x10^28 more addresses than a 32-bit address, not a mere 4 billion. But I knew what you meant. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 24 23:35:08 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: <199810260140.UAA24620@armigeron.com> (spc@armigeron.com) References: <199810260140.UAA24620@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <19981025043508.21169.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" wrote: > What the heck are you compiling that requires over 500M of RAM during the > compilation step? Netscape? I can't even conceive of something that large. I have a C source file that was generated by automatic translation from a big pile of assembly code for another processor. It ends up having one C function containing several *thousand* basic blocks. This only takes a few minutes and a few megabytes to compile if I turn the optimizer off. But with optimization enabled... Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 24 23:58:03 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: TurboDOS In-Reply-To: (message from John Lawson on Sat, 24 Oct 1998 19:59:50 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19981025045803.21292.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Lawson wrote: > I have tried scanning manuals a few times, sans much luck. Perhaps > you could e-mail me privately with some knowledge on getting text > scanned properly... or maybe my sorry software is braindead in the > text dept. I have tried making jpegs, but by the time they're > composited, tweaked, and compressed, they're mostly illegible. :( Since I'd like to share my philosophy of printed document preparation with a larger audience, I'm not emailing it privately. The secret (IMNSHO) is to recognize four things: 1) *NONE* of the available OCR is anywhere near good enough 2) This lifetime is too short to manually fix up the output of the OCR process. 3) Despite #1 and #2, it still is worthwhile making scanned images available in some form. 4) Even if OCR isn't good enough for document preservation, it's still worthwhile as a supplement since you can't grep images. Once you've resigned yourself to that, the solution is to scan the stuff at a reasonable resolution (typically 300 DPI), save it as TIFF Class F files using ITU-T Group 4 (T.6) compression, and run the stuff through Adobe Acrobat Exchange's "Capture" module in "invisible text" mode. The capture module will OCR the text to the best of its ability, but it will save the entire scanned image in the PDF file, so the document can be displayed or printed in all its original glory (and with all the original coffee stains, etc.). However, since the capture module does a fair job of OCR and saves the text in the PDF file with the "invisible" attribute, the reader can still use the search capabilities. The resulting document sizes are of course somewhat large, but not so huge as to be completely unmanageable. As an example, I have two DECsystem-10 manuals and a portion of a third currently available from one of my web sites: http://www.36bit.org/dec/manual/ Printed Pages Document Size Average Bytes Per Page ------------- ------------- ---------------------- 162 11.9 M 76,959 514 36.2 M 73,935 50 2.5 M 53,375 A 36-megabyte file admittedly takes a fair bit of time to download over a modem link. But the other option was for people not to be able to get it from me at all, because I don't mind spending hours to scan it once, but I'm not willing to spend hours making a photocopy EVERY TIME someone wants a copy. My web server supports byte-serving, so people running Netscape or IE with the Acrobat plug-in can browse the documents without having to download them in their entirety. So far the only people who have complained about it are people who didn't have any reason to need the files anyhow. I don't really understand it, but a lot of people seem to download everything they can get their hands on for no particular reason. I used to have some very large documents available on my web site in Postscript files that were available either ZIP'd or tar'd, and I specifically stated on the web page that the contents were the same, so please don't download both. An amazing number of people downloaded both anyhow. So now I only provide things like that in tar files. Eric From gram at cnct.com Sun Oct 25 00:33:27 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Microfortnights References: <4.1.19981025135812.00d8c460@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <3632B827.173E7494@cnct.com> Huw Davies wrote: > > At 09:50 AM 20-10-98 -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > >Why do you have to remember when you have VMS HELP available? :-) > > Hey, that's cheating :-) You're also luck that TIMEPROMPTWAIT starts with > TIME. As far as I remember, wild carding within SYSGEN is not exactly > optimal. Wildcards match the first occurrence.... > > The story I heard about uFortnights was a bit of an "in joke" within VMS > development. There was obviously a concerted effort to make VMS > documentation as dry as IBM stuff is perceived, so the developers put up > this new unit to see how far up the chain of cleansing it would go before > being "expunged". I hear that there was some surprise and embarrassment > when it escaped to customers. An entry in the Unix fortune cookie database that dates back to Berkeley, probably not later than the mid 70s, and likely got there from older sources: |Dimensions will always be expressed in the least usable term, |convertible only through the use of weird and unnatural conversion |factors. Velocity, for example, will be expressed in furlongs per |fortnight. And from the Jargon file, on paper known as the New Hacker's Dictionary, maintained by my co-conspirator Eric S. Raymond, comes the following: |microfortnight {n.} 1/1000000 of the fundamental unit of time | in the Furlong/Firkin/Fortnight system of measurement; 1.2096 sec. | (A furlong is 1/8th of a mile; a firkin is 1/4th of a barrel; the | mass unit of the system is taken to be a firkin of water). The VMS | operating system has a lot of tuning parameters that you can set | with the SYSGEN utility, and one of these is TIMEPROMPTWAIT, the | time the system will wait for an operator to set the correct date | and time at boot if it realizes that the current value is bogus. | This time is specified in microfortnights! | | Multiple uses of the millifortnight (about 20 minutes) and | nanofortnight have also been reported. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Oct 25 01:53:35 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: Scanning (was: TurboDos) Message-ID: Thank you very much for the scanning info, Eric. If I can get my clients out of here reasonably early enough Sunday(tomorrow), I will give things a try along the lines you've suggested... seems I have most of the tools lying around here somewhere. My offer, though, re: the doc that spawned this thread, still holds. If you want this TurboDos info, it is yours for the price of UPS or FedEx from Los Angeles. Thanx again! PS: Thanx Ward G. I had quite forgotten about the F/F/F system of mensuration. And it is no less ridiculous than the one we (in 'Merka) use that is derived from human anatomy and plant biology. Cheers John From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Sun Oct 25 06:10:21 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:39 2005 Subject: 11/70 Front Panel Message-ID: <199810251210.HAA22161@shell.monmouth.com> > Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:33:48 +0100 (BST) > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Subject: Re: 11/70 front panel > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text > > > The "programmer's" front panel doesn't exist for the PDP11/70. > > I would guess he's refering to the original 11/70 front panel. It looks > just like an 11/45 panel, except that it has 22 address indicators and 22 > switches. > > > What you probably have is the 11/70 Remote Diagnostic Console > > which allowed DEC to remotely diagnose the 11/70 (even when hung > > in a microcode loop or power fail routine) from Colorado. > > > > The front panel hooks to a microprocessor controlled card which interfaced > > The original 11/70 panel connects directly into the CPU logic AFAIK. I don't > think there's a microprocessor in there. I don't believe so... I do think the Remote Diag Console used a microprocessor (Looked kind of like a modified DMC/KMC-11 to allow it to grab Unibus state snapshots and stuff like that from a machine which was completely hung. I only wished they kept working front panel switches and lights with the RDC. > > -tony > You could do a lot of good diagnostic stuff remotely with just the RDC and a console DL11 hooked to a modem... The board was supposed to be DEC proprietary and removed from the machine (like the 11/750 RDC board) when it went off service contact. In the late 80's DEC started getting a bit lax on removing them. If I find the pocket guide for it -- I'll post the commands. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From fauradon at pclink.com Sun Oct 25 07:31:21 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: Week End Finds Message-ID: <000d01be001b$c21c3ca0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> OOPS This was of course not meant to the list Francois From rcini at email.msn.com Sun Oct 25 07:27:12 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: PDP Doc files posted today Message-ID: <002801be001b$404a9820$48f42399@mainoffice> Hello, all: I finally got Acrobat Exchange and my scanner to talk to eachother, so I started scanning my PDP docs. I posted to http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ copies of the following: * IAS/RSX-11 Fortran IV Installation Guide approx size 2mb * RK05J Engineering drawings approx size 2.7mb I also have the RK05 service manual scanned and broken into four, 25-page chunks totaling about 7.5mb. Let me know what you think about the file sizes. I'm torn between files for each chapter and a single file so long as it isn't much bigger than 2mb. Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin!/CW7 - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Collector of "classic" computers <========= reply separator ==========> From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 25 08:09:13 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: 11/70 Front Panel Message-ID: <199810251409.AA08515@world.std.com> > The "programmer's" front panel doesn't exist for the PDP11/70. I saw this earlier and I severely disagree. Two systems I knew of in the Mill (PRINCE::) and Westford (GRAF::) locations were both 11/70 with programmers front pannels. The latter system, GRAF:: was one I'd reboot if the sysmangler wasn't around so it's familiar to me. Allison From dogas at leading.net Sun Oct 25 08:15:23 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: eVay Message-ID: <01be0021$e7db9200$fac962cf@devlaptop> A broken IMSAI 8080 has shown up on eBay in case anyone is interested... Mike:-dogas@leading.net From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 25 09:24:03 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: FUBARs and microfortnights Message-ID: <981025102403.22200271@trailing-edge.com> >>Why do you have to remember when you have VMS HELP available? :-) >Hey, that's cheating :-) >The story I heard about uFortnights was a bit of an "in joke" within VMS >development. There was obviously a concerted effort to make VMS >documentation as dry as IBM stuff is perceived, so the developers put up >this new unit to see how far up the chain of cleansing it would go before >being "expunged". I hear that there was some surprise and embarrassment >when it escaped to customers. If that's the case, I wonder how "?SYS-F-FUBAR - Failed Unibus Address Register" snuck in, too :-) Tim. From gram at cnct.com Sun Oct 25 09:23:11 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: Scanning (was: TurboDos) References: Message-ID: <3633425F.2768D021@cnct.com> John Lawson wrote: > > Thank you very much for the scanning info, Eric. If I can get my > clients out of here reasonably early enough Sunday(tomorrow), I will > give things a try along the lines you've suggested... seems I have > most of the tools lying around here somewhere. > > My offer, though, re: the doc that spawned this thread, still > holds. If you want this TurboDos info, it is yours for the price of > UPS or FedEx from Los Angeles. > > Thanx again! > > PS: Thanx Ward G. I had quite forgotten about the F/F/F system of > mensuration. And it is no less ridiculous than the one we (in 'Merka) > use that is derived from human anatomy and plant biology. Believe it or not, outside of pure scientific uses, I prefer the non-decimal measuring system to the metric. I grew up using a slide rule, and decimal points can be quite mischievous under the metric system. Whereas the "unwieldy" conversions required by using feet, gallons, horsepower etc. require just enough extra attention that the decimal point's location is less likely to slide to one side or the other in a result. Of course, nowadays with the collection of factors in the Linux 'units' command database, I just use whatever's in the provided data. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From marvin at rain.org Sun Oct 25 10:08:52 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: eVay References: <01be0021$e7db9200$fac962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <36334D14.125C37C4@rain.org> Mike wrote: > > A broken IMSAI 8080 has shown up on eBay in case anyone is interested... URL is http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=37660959, and I think I recognize the email address of the person selling it :). Good luck Kevin! From marvin at rain.org Sun Oct 25 10:11:40 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I References: <01be0021$e7db9200$fac962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <36334DBC.49C3B508@rain.org> Anyone know how many of the TRS-80 model I computers were made without the numeric keypad? I remember a discussion a year or so ago where someone in the UK was looking specifically for one without the keypad. In checking through my collection, I only found one without the keypad, and am just curious. From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Oct 25 10:19:39 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: HP Paintjet Message-ID: <19981025161939.8280.qmail@hotmail.com> I'm not sure if the HP Paintjet is >10yo. If not,feel free to ignore. Is it possible to upload fonts to the Paintjet? Or redefine its character set in any way? Does anyone have the escape codes for it? I looked on www.hp.com, but it is Lynx-unfriendly. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Oct 25 10:29:44 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I References: <01be0021$e7db9200$fac962cf@devlaptop> <36334DBC.49C3B508@rain.org> Message-ID: <363351F7.A9E33F02@bigfoot.com> Allison is probably the best source on Tandy, or at least knows all the good resource material. Marvin wrote: > Anyone know how many of the TRS-80 model I computers were made without the > numeric keypad? I remember a discussion a year or so ago where someone in > the UK was looking specifically for one without the keypad. In checking > through my collection, I only found one without the keypad, and am just > curious. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Oct 25 10:31:37 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: eVay References: <01be0021$e7db9200$fac962cf@devlaptop> <36334D14.125C37C4@rain.org> Message-ID: <36335268.D878DFD8@bigfoot.com> There's also an Altair case (supposed to be like new) starting at $100 on there as well. The video snaps seemed to look good but I'm not so sure I'd be willing to bid on a $100 starting bid. Marvin wrote: > Mike wrote: > > > > A broken IMSAI 8080 has shown up on eBay in case anyone is interested... > > URL is http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=37660959, and > I think I recognize the email address of the person selling it :). Good > luck Kevin! From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Oct 25 11:07:22 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: Anyone Have Pinout for M8047-AA SLU Ports??? In-Reply-To: <199810242214.PAA21209@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981025090722.039b34b0@agora.rdrop.com> At 03:14 PM 10/24/98 -0700, you wrote: >Hi All: > >I have an M8047-AA 2 port SLU/boot rom card. It's a dual-height Q bus >card. > >I am looking for the pinout of the 2 serial ports. They are 10 pin IDC >headers, with one pin removed to ensure correct polarity. > >The headers look like: > >o o o o o >o o X o o > >The "o"s are pins, the "X" is the missing pin. Don't have the pinout at hand, but it is identical to the DLV-11J if that helps... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dhansen at zebra.net Sun Oct 25 11:19:16 1998 From: dhansen at zebra.net (david) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: DEC VAX 6220 Message-ID: <36335D94.46D1@zebra.net> I'm wondering if anyone wants a DEC Vax 6220 (model number 62AMB-YE). It's approximately 5' x 3' x 3' and is located in the Mobile, Alabama area. Please reply quickly. david From marvin at rain.org Sun Oct 25 12:37:27 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: eVay References: <01be0021$e7db9200$fac962cf@devlaptop> <36334D14.125C37C4@rain.org> <36335268.D878DFD8@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <36336FE7.994389AB@rain.org> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > There's also an Altair case (supposed to be like new) starting at $100 on there I have been curious about what the January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics would bring on ebay, and now we can all find out. Current price is $40.61 and it will close at 21:20 PDT. The URL for anyone interested is http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=37472905. I would think that the Jan and Feb issues would be a bit more desireable, or for that matter, all of the 1975, 1976, 1977, and maybe later volumes. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 25 13:03:29 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <199810251903.AA04391@world.std.com> < Anyone know how many of the TRS-80 model I computers were made without t < numeric keypad? I remember a discussion a year or so ago where someone < the UK was looking specifically for one without the keypad. In checkin < through my collection, I only found one without the keypad, and am just < curious. Quite a few, I'd speculate over 50,000 for sure. The keypad was an option that was very frequently added though so many originals were keypadded, LII'd and 16k'd. It's rare to see a stock TRS80 that hasn't had factory and customer mods. Other common mods to the base console: * Lovercase chars, (add a 2102 and a jumper, etch cut). +++started as customer mod, then DEPOT repair mod.+++ * ^(CTRL) key so ^C and other characters could be done. ===Customer mod. * Cassette load mod, small board with 4040 counter and a gate to prevent cload hang under LII. +++Depot repair, factory LII mod+++ * CPU clock speed up (bump the clock from 1.7mhz to 3.4mhz). ===customer mod. Some companies also sold some of these mods as kits. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 25 10:49:27 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: FUBARs and microfortnights In-Reply-To: <981025102403.22200271@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 25, 98 10:24:03 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 657 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981025/2e2294e6/attachment.ksh From bill_r at inetnebr.com Sun Oct 25 13:50:00 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: eVay In-Reply-To: <36335268.D878DFD8@bigfoot.com> References: <01be0021$e7db9200$fac962cf@devlaptop> <36334D14.125C37C4@rain.org> <36335268.D878DFD8@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <36388006.572500532@insight> "alexzogh", formerly of Net$cape, has his teeth in that one, so don't bother. I don't think I've seen him throw an auction on eBay yet, once he had started bidding. On Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:31:37 -0600, you wrote: >There's also an Altair case (supposed to be like new) starting at $100 on there >as well. The video snaps seemed to look good but I'm not so sure I'd be willing >to bid on a $100 starting bid. > >Marvin wrote: > >> Mike wrote: >> > >> > A broken IMSAI 8080 has shown up on eBay in case anyone is interested... >> >> URL is http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=37660959, and >> I think I recognize the email address of the person selling it :). Good >> luck Kevin! -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.) From thomas at 0000000.com Sun Oct 25 14:34:54 1998 From: thomas at 0000000.com (Thomas Poff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I References: <199810251903.AA04391@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810252043.MAA02129@0000000.com> I remember the original Model I and the Level-II laden Model 1 (with numeric pad) had different ROMs and 12 kb more RAM. I'm sure others remember oodles more than I do about this. When I was a kid I tho't that the keypad was incredibly lame because it didn't have a comma key. The only thing I would ever use it for would have been typing in numbers in DATA statements so it seems like a dumb idea. Besides that the original case was marginally cuter! Gradually I learned to use the pesky number keys at the top of the keyboard and ignored the numeric pad completely. Even today I ignore the numeric pads because they don't have comma keys on them. Thomas Begin forwarded message: < Anyone know how many of the TRS-80 model I computers were made without t < numeric keypad? I remember a discussion a year or so ago where someone < the UK was looking specifically for one without the keypad. In checkin < through my collection, I only found one without the keypad, and am just < curious. Quite a few, I'd speculate over 50,000 for sure. The keypad was an option that was very frequently added though so many originals were keypadded, LII'd and 16k'd. It's rare to see a stock TRS80 that hasn't had factory and customer mods. Other common mods to the base console: * Lovercase chars, (add a 2102 and a jumper, etch cut). +++started as customer mod, then DEPOT repair mod.+++ * ^(CTRL) key so ^C and other characters could be done. ===Customer mod. * Cassette load mod, small board with 4040 counter and a gate to prevent cload hang under LII. +++Depot repair, factory LII mod+++ * CPU clock speed up (bump the clock from 1.7mhz to 3.4mhz). ===customer mod. Some companies also sold some of these mods as kits. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 25 14:39:55 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <981025153955.222002af@trailing-edge.com> > Gradually I learned to use the pesky number keys at the top of the keyboard > and ignored the numeric pad completely. Even today I ignore the numeric pads > because they don't have comma keys on them. What happens when you come across the One True Keyboard (VT100) or its descendants, which do have a comma on the keyboard like god intended? There's even a DEC keyboard - the LK250 - which has a comma on the keypad and works on PC-clones. Tim. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 25 14:56:15 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: wanted: sheet feeder for HP ScanJet 3c Message-ID: <19981025205615.25502.qmail@brouhaha.com> OK, so it's not ten years old and therefore it isn't a classic. But I use my ScanJet 3C to scan documents *about* classic computers, and make them available on the web. For instance, the PDP-10 documentation at http://www.36bit.org/ So if anyone has an ADF (sheet feeder) that they're willing to sell, please let me know. The one HP intended for it was the C2525A, but I think the C2525B (for ScanJet 4C) and C6265A (for ScanJet 6100C) will work as well. Also, the C1751A (for the ScanJet IIc & IIcx) might work. Thanks! Eric From mbg at world.std.com Sun Oct 25 15:28:44 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: DEC VAX 6220 Message-ID: <199810252128.AA19229@world.std.com> Folks - apparently this unit (may or may not have disks - the person who posted about it is unsure) may be trashed if not spoken for by monday... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 25 16:54:29 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <36334DBC.49C3B508@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Oct 25, 98 08:11:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 979 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981025/6f7de527/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 25 16:59:02 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <199810251903.AA04391@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 25, 98 02:03:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1149 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981025/410a6208/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 25 17:33:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <199810252043.MAA02129@0000000.com> from "Thomas Poff" at Oct 25, 98 12:34:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 368 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981025/108ef6d3/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Oct 25 18:46:10 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators, Linux distributions In-Reply-To: <3630D39F.86DFE807@caldera.com> from "Caldera Systems Support" at Oct 23, 1998 01:06:07 PM Message-ID: <199810260046.RAA11251@calico.litterbox.com> *snip* > Jim, > We would like a chance to change your impressions of Caldera. We would like to > send you a free copy of our latest Product Openlinux 1.3. Please send me your > shipping address and we will get one out to you. > > Mark Carpenter > Manager, Technical Support > Caldera Systems, Inc. > > mark.carpenter@caldera.com *snip* Well I have to say this was unexpected. They seem to be pretty concerned about my opinion of them. I guess I'll give them another chance, although they seem to respond most rapidly when I've sent some vicious piece of hate mail their way. Hopefully maybe they'll get it together - a supported Linux would be good to have. Anyway, this has gone way way off topic, probably best to let it drop as far as the list is concerned. If anyone wonders how things came out, please feel free to send me personal e-mail about it. And yes I did accept the free upgrade from them. Far be it from me to turn down free stuff. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From thomas at 0000000.com Sun Oct 25 18:39:50 1998 From: thomas at 0000000.com (Thomas Poff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I References: Message-ID: <199810260048.QAA02348@0000000.com> I know that towards the end of the Model I production run most of my friends interested in buying were totally avoiding the basic 4k units. They ended up with level II machines and never saw the unit before modification. It would be kinduv interesting to know if these units were built as level II machines or modified at the factory, or at the store. In other words, were there ever factory-built Model 1, level II machines? _Tony said:_ >My Model 1 was bought as a 4K L1 machine. It was then upgraded to 16K L2, >but I never had the keypad. I've subsequently obtained a 16K L2 machine >with a keypad. I could see in some areas of the country the dealers leaving off the keypads if they weren't readily available. All the machines I saw in Southern California at least were described as such... if there was a numeric keypad, it was a level II machine, else it was not. The one I picked up for free has the little shortcut labels still attached to the keyboard. I never had a chance to use those way back when as I always had access to [a friend's] Level II machine. Thomas From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Oct 25 18:46:57 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <19981026004657.25037.qmail@hotmail.com> Speaking of A-F keys, does anyone here use any of the alternative keyboards available for PC XTs and ATs? I'm curious if anyone has ever seen the IrmaKey/3270 (IIRC) keyboards. They must have something like 130 keys, but I have no idea how to program the macro keys. Anyone know? > >> When I was a kid I tho't that the keypad was incredibly lame because it >> didn't have a comma key. The only thing I would ever use it for would have > >And I didn't like it because it didn't have A-F on it. Once a machine >code programmer, always a machine code programmer and all that :-) > >That's why I never bought the keypad for my original Model 1. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Oct 25 18:47:28 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <19981026004728.21573.qmail@hotmail.com> >Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 23:33:33 +0000 (GMT) >Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" >Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model I > >> When I was a kid I tho't that the keypad was incredibly lame because it >> didn't have a comma key. The only thing I would ever use it for would have > >And I didn't like it because it didn't have A-F on it. Once a machine >code programmer, always a machine code programmer and all that :-) > >That's why I never bought the keypad for my original Model 1. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 25 20:03:53 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <199810260203.AA03008@world.std.com> < I know that towards the end of the Model I production run most of my fri < interested in buying were totally avoiding the basic 4k units. They end < up with level II machines and never saw the unit before modification. I < would be kinduv interesting to know if these units were built as level I < machines or modified at the factory, or at the store. By late '79 the LII machines were the rule. Lower cost of rams and roms plus competitive drive. Also most were factory LII using the two chip LII roms or leftover three chip version. Allison From dburrows at netpath.net Sun Oct 25 20:44:41 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: Bid list Message-ID: <000f01be008a$ae411420$a60b0b0b@p166> If anyone else wants to bid on the list please get them to by 9:00 in the morning (EST). I will respond with a copy of what I have to submit with everyone's name on their group of items. Please check your section and part # to be sure they are correct. To keep peace with the family I can't respond anymore tonight. Thanks Dan From gram at cnct.com Sun Oct 25 21:21:27 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I References: Message-ID: <3633EAB7.A4E5BC21@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Anyone know how many of the TRS-80 model I computers were made without the > > numeric keypad? I remember a discussion a year or so ago where someone in > > I can't give exact numbers, but I would think quite a few. > > Originally, all model 1's didn't have the keypad. Later one (at least in > the UK), if you bought a new machine with 16K RAM (whether Level 1 or > Level 2), then it came with the keypad. 4K machines did not. > > If you upgraded to 16K RAM (and had it done by Radio Shack), then you > didn't get the keypad. The keypad was a separate upgrade that could be > fitted to any Model 1 (including 4K machines). > > My Model 1 was bought as a 4K L1 machine. It was then upgraded to 16K L2, > but I never had the keypad. I've subsequently obtained a 16K L2 machine > with a keypad. > > There are many varients of Model 1 (Different logic board versions, > different ROM versions, different monitors, etc), and the keypad is > hardly the defining property of the first version. Configurations from the factory varied over the 3.5 years the Mod I was sold. I don't have a list of stock numbers (many dead brain cells ago I could have quoted just about every 26-xxxx series stock number and its product in numeric or introduction order along with the price at introduction and the price at closeout). RAM BASIC Keypad? 4k LI Never, and it wouldn't have worked 4k LII I've heard rumors, never seen an example, doubt it. It would have worked, but there'd be no profit to the user or the company. In the case of the Mod III, a whole new ball game is in place. 16k LI Never, see 4kLI 16k LII Here's where all of the variation came in.The original Mod I didn't have a keypad. It was (IIRC) well over a year before it was offered. The last batch on the other hand all had them from the factory, it had become cheaper due to the ALPS contract (when the pebbled keys showed up in place of the smooth keys). The lower-case mod was always an add-on to the Mod I. As far as I know, there were only three logic board versions, one version of the Level I BASIC ROM for the Mod I and two versions of the Level II ROM (for the Mod I). Now in the case of the Model II, things like internal variation can be more fun to discuss -- but I'd have to get in touch with my ex-wife, since she was the real hardware hacker on that series in her days as a Tandy field servoid. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From erd at infinet.com Sun Oct 25 22:21:36 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: 11/70 front panel In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 24, 98 06:33:48 pm Message-ID: <199810260421.XAA20293@user2.infinet.com> > > > The "programmer's" front panel doesn't exist for the PDP11/70. > > I would guess he's refering to the original 11/70 front panel. It looks > just like an 11/45 panel, except that it has 22 address indicators and 22 > switches. Yes. That's the one. I called it the "programmer's" panel, because that's the nomenclature for the 11/34a and 8/a. I also do not have a programmer's front panel for the -8/a, but I never figured I would. I *really* wanted to show off the blinkenlights on the 11/70. I'd even rig up a toggle-in program, just to do "Cylon" lights. I wrote one for for the 8/L once, but I didn't write it down (not that it's too hard to recreate). It's not much, but the viewing public eats it up. > > What you probably have is the 11/70 Remote Diagnostic Console > > which allowed DEC to remotely diagnose the 11/70 (even when hung > > in a microcode loop or power fail routine) from Colorado. Yes. It's the RDC console. I forgot the term. They both still have their modems in the racks (but the yahoos from maintenance cut the lines going in :-P ) -ethan From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Oct 26 00:02:57 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981025220257.0090bc50@agora.rdrop.com> In the catagory of: "it must get worse before it gets better" Starting Saturday (perhaps earlier, but the first that I noticed) eBay has been running radio spots on the national syndicate program feeds. As if there are not already enough (far too many) people out there with excessive $$ to throw around... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From erd at infinet.com Mon Oct 26 00:15:34 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: ASR33 touchtone keypad questions In-Reply-To: <19981016134616.093bc097.in@mail.pressstart.com> from "Doug Coward" at Oct 16, 98 02:07:34 pm Message-ID: <199810260615.BAA21187@user2.infinet.com> Someone a while back offered to help with questions I had regarding reinstalling a touchtone keypad I foolishly removed from an ASR33 while trying to convert it from 110 baud dataset use to current loop. I just located the keypad this weekend. I have two here, same era, different connections. ISTR that the one with more leads came out of the ASR33. Here goes... Number one: Top marking - 35Y3D 4-77 Under the "3" button - red w/green stripes Under the "2" button - red, black, orange w/black and white w/blue (4 wires) Under the "1" button - green and blue (two wires) Under the "6" button - white for a total of 8 wires Number two: Top marking 35AF3A Under the "3" - black jumper, purple, red w/ green (2 external) Under the "2" - green w/white, red, white (3) Under the "1" - black, orange w/black, white w/blue (3) Under the "5" - orange Under the "4" - green Under the "*" - blue Under the "#" - the other end of the black wire from under the "3" For a total of 11 wires. I would appreciate any information or leads to information about Western Electric touchtone pads. The plan with the ASR33 is to set it up on a phone line simulator with a 110 baud modem on the computer side, driving the teletype through its original interface. Much less work that grubbing around inside the TTY to install a current loop. I already have the simulator. We used to make them at a place I used to work at. I have the last run of bare PCBs and enclosures, etc. They were 8048-based, and simulated failures as well as successful calls. I used one once to add V.22 synchronous autodial support to our HASP and 3780 products for the VAX (thus keeping it within the 10-year rule). Thanks, -ethan From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Oct 26 00:27:48 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981025220257.0090bc50@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19981025221910.00976e80@mcmanis.com> I'll admit that I am confused about the subtext in Jim's message where he writes: At 10:02 PM 10/25/98 -0800, you wrote: >Starting Saturday (perhaps earlier, but the first that I noticed) eBay has >been running radio spots on the national syndicate program feeds. > >As if there are not already enough (far too many) people out there with >excessive $$ to throw around... It sounds like this is a "bad" thing. Is it? If so why? It would seem that eBay is making a market for older computers that before didn't exist. Now is it that the 'old timers' who were used to picking up C64's at a garage sale for $1 will now have to pay $25 are grumbling? Doesn't this potentially increase the value of your own collection many fold? Isn't that a good thing? Traditionally there is a rush of "collectible fever" (if you've ever dealt with collectibles, and my Dad has for many more years than I) where lots of people rush in an buy anything that may be collectible hoping to get in at the bottom of the next "beanie" craze, then there is a rush of junk dealers who prey on those bozos and come in and sell them a bunch of "L@@K! R@RE!" Commodore 64's or 486SL machines for over market prices, and then there is a general "crash" of the market as the bozo's leave and prices go back to more rational levels (but usually higher than they were before the "collectible" craze hit) and then, if they are truely collectable (and there are many properties of things that make them so) then the price begins to reflect actual rarity, condition, and that imponderable "desirability." --Chuck (Who is waiting for his Korg M1 synthesizer to become 'collectible' because he gave away an Arp Odessey when he was still clueless...) From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Oct 26 01:58:24 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: discrete transistors In-Reply-To: <199810211431.AA02727@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19981026185111.00d20460@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 10:31 AM 21-10-98 -0400, Allison J Parent wrote: >I was told a story about an old 700 series where the cooling water for >the rooms chiller found a leak. The leak was in the hundreds of gallons >a minute rate. Oh, the 700 series is a vacuum tube machine so the under >floor cable troughs have data and power cables galore. Seems the machine >was still running fine when water started gushing out the bottom pannels >of the racks. All the interconnection cables and PS units were soaked and >it still ran! They shut down, fixed the pipe and dried the room and fired >everything back up no problem. Well, in a vain attempt to out brag Allison: In a previous job we had a very nice computer room which was in the "old style", that is, all glass walls so the important people could look in and see where their money had gone to (In reality, it was this way to allow light into another area, but I prefer the other explanation :-). I was at home one night and the phone rang - it was the building manager calling to ask if water in the computer room was a problem :-( Apparently the cooling water to the computer room air conditioner had escaped. I set a new record in the home to work run. Arriving in my office it was clear that we had about 12 inches of water in the room. The spray off the fans in the back of our "main" MicroVAX-II (in the large H9624? cabinet) was impressive.... Foolishly I opened the computer room door to go switch things off (the water was about 4C). I didn't manage to electrocute myself and turned things off. Unfortunately, the cold water contaminated the mouse rooms which were directly below the computer room, leading to the destruction of about $10K of mice (it was a biomolecular research institute). It seems a in-line filter had failed in the cold water system. It was replaced. Ten days later it failed again...... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Oct 26 02:02:39 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981021140801.00f16240@pc> References: <199810211858.OAA22516@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19981026190033.00d202a0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 02:08 PM 21-10-98 -0500, John Foust wrote: >Today's Alpha/MIPS/PPC Windows machines contain an x86 emulation >in ROM, used at boot-time to jump into and init the start-up ROMs of >Wintel-market add-on cards for video, networking, etc. DEC/Compaq >gives away an Intel emulator called FX!32 for Alpha boxes that can >run Windows x86 binaries as-is. Well, FX!32 isn't an emulator, it's a binary level incremental translator. Intel code in, alpha code out. For those of you with a long memory (or who like reading CACMs from the '60s) will see that this is one of the "holy grails" of computing at that time. One of the things that really irritates me with the old Digital is that they had technology like this (and VEST and mx) and didn't bother to tell anyone about it.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Oct 26 02:05:33 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19981021140351.00f1c660@pc> Message-ID: <4.1.19981026190350.00d9f8d0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 12:14 PM 21-10-98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: >On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, John Foust wrote: > >> This reminds me of a claim I hear in Y2K discussions, but can hardly >> believe: that businesses are running the same *executables* since >> the 1950s/60s/70s, and that they don't have the source code to fix it. Well, here is an edited directory listing from our main VMS cluster: MPCASM.DOC;1 24-NOV-1980 16:33:05.00 MPCASM.EXE;1 24-NOV-1980 16:33:06.00 TEKLIB.OLB;1 24-NOV-1980 16:33:14.66 Now the hardware is considerably newer than the files, but I can guarantee that I don't have the sources for these. (MPCASM is an assembler for a 6800 and TEKLIB is a library for Tektronix 4010 terminals...). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 26 01:57:31 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: ASR33 touchtone keypad questions In-Reply-To: <199810260615.BAA21187@user2.infinet.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Mon, 26 Oct 1998 01:15:34 -0500 (EST)) References: <199810260615.BAA21187@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: <19981026075731.28314.qmail@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I would appreciate any information or leads to information about Western > Electric touchtone pads. [... (actually in the reverse order] > Top marking - 35Y3D 4-77 I think this particular model was commonly used in 2500 sets. In '78 (when I was in junior high school), I managed to talk a Mountain Bell repairman into giving me one of these to play with. I distinctly remember that model number. However, I never figured out how to make it do anything useful, so I gutted it and only used the keypad. I've got an ASR33 service manual, but it's in Colorado and I'm in California. I don't remember whether it covered the modem. Eric From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Oct 26 02:23:59 1998 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <078401be00ba$07e33380$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Hi all, Any Aussies out there know a good place to look for an ethernet adapter that will fit a Microvax II? I have a nice machine, complete with VMS 5.4, freshly rescued from a scrap metal yard, but it has no network adapter. While I'm at it, AUI-10Base2(or t) transceivers are also getting rare, (around here anyway) since I have a Vax 6220 in need as well, any good sources? S/H preferred. I'd like 2 or 3 if possible. BTW, Huw, did you ever come across a source for a Vax 8530-Console cable? (With that subject line, I just know you'll read this!) You mentioned some time back that you might know where one was. The Pro380 console for it now has a new hard disk, with the console software successfully installed, it just needs a cable to make the poor old beast functional. (Backplane permitting) I see what you mean about the backplane too. Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Oct 26 02:40:23 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <078401be00ba$07e33380$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from "Geoff Roberts" at Oct 26, 1998 06:53:59 PM Message-ID: <199810260840.BAA15998@calico.litterbox.com> When last I looked - and this was 1993 or so - you could still buy the ethernet interfaces for uVAX IIs from used system dealers. Whatever you do, don't get stuck with a deqna board. Nothing after VMS 5.3 supports them. You want a delqa or delqa YM board. The YM is the high performance version of the delqa. In 1993 they cost about 300 bucks(US) a whack. For refernece, a 16 bit PC net board was between 1 and 2 hundred bucks(US) at the time. They're probably more or less worthless now. *sigh* :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Oct 26 03:18:46 1998 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <078d01be00c1$af9f66a0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, 26 October 1998 20:07 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >When last I looked - and this was 1993 or so - you could still buy the ethernet >interfaces for uVAX IIs from used system dealers. Dealers in things Digital are scarce around here. That's part of the problem. > Whatever you do, don't get stuck with a deqna board. Nothing after VMS 5.3 supports them. Ah. Ok, thanks for that. >You want a delqa or delqa YM board. The YM is the high performance version of >the delqa. In 1993 they cost about 300 bucks(US) a whack Ok, I'll try for one of those. Thank you. >They're probably more or less worthless now. *sigh* :) A$400 a tonne. At selected "Hi-Tech" scrap yards. FWIW, I got the MVII, plus 2 VS4000's, (a 90 & a 60), a swag of RZ55's, couple TK50's, couple VT220 & 320 terms a DS3100, a VS3100/M38, 2 Data General 88000 based Aviions running DGUX 5.4 V3.10 (Sys 5 R4 + bits of BSD) and 2 Interpro 19" Colour RGBHV monitors for $160. Plus sundry keyboards etc. The MVII and a couple of the VS still have VMS 5.4 or 5.5 on them. (A small cluster is in the works :^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 26 07:26:06 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) Message-ID: <199810261206.NAA13262@marina.fth.sbs.de> > It sounds like this is a "bad" thing. Is it? If so why? It would seem that > eBay is making a market for older computers that before didn't exist. Now > is it that the 'old timers' who were used to picking up C64's at a garage > sale for $1 will now have to pay $25 are grumbling? Doesn't this > potentially increase the value of your own collection many fold? Isn't that > a good thing? As a matter of nature, I don't care for the monetary value of my collection. What I care is to get new exciteing finds. > Traditionally there is a rush of "collectible fever" (if > you've ever dealt with collectibles, and my Dad has for many more years > than I) where lots of people rush in an buy anything that may be > collectible hoping to get in at the bottom of the next "beanie" craze, then > there is a rush of junk dealers who prey on those bozos and come in and > sell them a bunch of "L@@K! R@RE!" Commodore 64's or 486SL machines for > over market prices, and then there is a general "crash" of the market as > the bozo's leave and prices go back to more rational levels (but usually > higher than they were before the "collectible" craze hit) and then, if they > are truely collectable (and there are many properties of things that make > them so) then the price begins to reflect actual rarity, condition, and > that imponderable "desirability." Actual rarity ? Hmm so lets see - a PET is more rare than a KIM ? Or a Apple I five hundret times rarer than a NASCOM-I ? Come real prices beside the usual 1 to 100 USD are just rubbisch. Just follow Jim about his Intellec/Altair thing. For shure, the Intellec is a nice thing, but everybody just looks at the Altair. I have to stay on swap meets and garage sales - and maybe I find an Apple 1 :))) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From oajones at bright.net Mon Oct 26 06:47:29 1998 From: oajones at bright.net (oajones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) References: <4.1.19981025221910.00976e80@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <36346F61.EEC@bright.net> Chuck McManis wrote: > > there is a rush of junk dealers who prey on those bozos and come in and > sell them a bunch of "L@@K! R@RE!" Commodore 64's or 486SL machines for > over market prices, What really is amazing is that there are people out there who are either uninformed about the true value of these computers or are just plain ignorant. Let us not forget the economic principle of supply and demand. As long as there are people willing to shell out the bucks for the item they "demand" there will be someone else there to "supply." Have a nice day. :) --Alan oajones@bright.net From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 26 08:19:46 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: eVay Message-ID: <199810261300.OAA08131@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> There's also an Altair case (supposed to be like new) starting at $100 on there > I have been curious about what the January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics > would bring on ebay, and now we can all find out. Current price is $40.61 > and it will close at 21:20 PDT. The URL for anyone interested is > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=37472905. I would > think that the Jan and Feb issues would be a bit more desireable, or for > that matter, all of the 1975, 1976, 1977, and maybe later volumes. Geeeee - I should sell any of my old issues on eVay - and some I even have tripple. Gruss H. (future millionaire) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Mon Oct 26 07:17:10 1998 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: [off topic] comptech guys (was Re: TRS-80 emulators) In-Reply-To: <199810230210.WAA21889@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: >I found that out. I was talking to the comp.tech guy at my school last >week about getting a copy. He told me he'd be able to get me the new >version for $50. > >Shows just how full of bull @#$% he is. > >Although he's the same guy that gave me a Tandy 1000TL because the "hard >drive was shot". The power cable wasn't connected to it it goes to show just how full of bull@#$% they are and hey that's coming from me - i _am_ a comptech guy! but i'm not like that - really i can't stand the ones that lie to make it seem like something really hard when they could fix it in seconds or they just don't know and they're trying to hide it like the person that used to be my superior here... when some phd student's file had gone corrupt (microsoft access i think it was) she went into the dos prompt and did scandisk and all this other totally irrelevant stuff when after i realised that she hadn't a clue i spoke up and said that either the file is totally trashed (and it's your problem you didn't keep backups) or the information is still there and you may be able to salvage some of it or all of it if you open it up in notepad which she did and it worked but she couldn't handle the fact that she had to do so much cut and paste still i think it would be better than retyping the whole thing in, don't u agree? - it was a 10M file btw and whenever anything goes wrong with a computer that was incomprehensible for her - "It's a VIRUS!" that scares them all a few times i would discretely go to the student after she would go away and say, "Well, actually, it's _not_ a virus... Here..." and I'd fix it for them that's really a shame 'cause a lot of comp tech ppl do that and it's spread and a lot of ppl react like that anything unusual - virus "Nasos, would you come here and check this computer. I think it has a virus!" Um, no it just crashed the cable is loose the disk drive died (we do have old computers here) oh well, nasos From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 26 08:27:03 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: Acron (was:Re: Educational subsidies) Message-ID: <199810261307.OAA25446@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> Slashdot.org has a story explaining that the UK school system can't >> afford NT 5 and are considering another OS. In light of this, people >> were bringing up Apple's success in schools in contrast to the current >> situation. > I thought that Acorn dominated the UK school system? Perhaps I heard > wrong. And speaking of Acorn - If I'm right informed they have just descided to stop building RISC-PCs - end of one more independant line of computers. I belive the last with roots in the 80s, and the last beside Apple. Or is there any other non Win/Intel/IBM manufacturer (beside Apple) for the consumer/non niche market manufacturer left ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 26 07:11:47 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: 11/70 front panel Message-ID: <981026081147.222002ec@trailing-edge.com> > > What you probably have is the 11/70 Remote Diagnostic Console > > which allowed DEC to remotely diagnose the 11/70 (even when hung > > in a microcode loop or power fail routine) from Colorado. >Yes. It's the RDC console. I forgot the term. They both still have >their modems in the racks (but the yahoos from maintenance cut the lines >going in :-P ) Technically, the modem and the certain bits of the RDC could never be owned by the customer; these were always the property of Digital and the customer was forced to lease (well, the number was rolled into the field service contract.) When the field service contract ended, Digital was supposed to come remove these bits and reinstall the "real" front panel, but often neglected to do so. Tim. From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Oct 26 07:52:27 1998 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: bit addressing, alignment, bus errors, and VM (was Re: PDP-10 arch question) References: <199810230234.AA00234@world.std.com> <19981023031547.7729.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <36347E9A.DE713FD@idirect.com> >Eric Smith wrote: > Someone wrote: > > What machines have had bit pointers? > > Allison replied: > > 8051. There may be others. > > Bear in mind that on the 8051, bit operations could only be done on > certain specific bits of the internal register file. It didn't have true > bit pointers, so you couldn't do arithmetic on the pointers. And they > could only be used for single bits, not bit fields. > > Aside from the PDP-10, the IBM Stretch (7030) and the TI 34010 and 34020 > graphics processors had fully general bit addressing. The Stretch did > require floating point operands to be 64-bit aligned and instructions to > be 32-bit aligned. I don't think the 340xx had any data alignment > restrictions; I'm not sure about instruction alignment. > > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/stretch/ > > Some unrelated stories about word alignement and virtual memory: > > The 68K family generally required that instructions be aligned; before > the 68020 16-bit and 32-bit data was also required to be aligned. Otherwise > an address error exception occurred. Jerome Fine replies: While I don't believe that a "STAR 100" from Control Data Corporation (CDC) will even be available for hobby users - it weighed many tonnes and needed external cooling (if I remember correctly - likely only water), it was a system which was likely the fastest and largest at the time - back in 1972. I think it also used core memory. And the cost was about $ US 10 Million. All of that is very hazy after 25 years. The key aspect which I am responding to is that the instruction set was based on a 64 bit word (8 bytes) many of which used only a half word and maybe a few might have used only a quarter word (2 bytes). The registers - there were 256 of 64 bits each were normally split into a count (16 bits) and an address (48 bits) when used to reference memory. Of course, the registers could also be integers or floating point values. Now the aspect of interest to this post. The addresses were specified down to the bit level - all 256 Trillion Bits of address or 32 Trillion Bytes. There were a number of instructions which were able to manipulate single bits - OR, AND, XOR, etc. I can't remember the exact details after 25 years, but I do remember (rarely) making use of the bit instructions when certain aspects of the paging algorithms were required. The point is well taken about what the full word (64 bits) instructions did if the data was not aligned on a 64 bit address - I can't remember. The instructions did have to be aligned on at least a byte boundary and if the minimum size was 2 bytes and the others were 4 bytes and 8 bytes (no odd number of bytes), then the alignment required for instructions was probably at the 16 bit level. Also, the instructions were always executed out of a READ-ONLY area of memory. One other interesting aspect is that by convention, the OS assumed that all of the top half of virtual memory belonged to the OS. Another is that the hardware was the child of Seymore Cray. Sadly, I probably no longer even have a manual for the instruction set. Incidentally, a quick quiz. Assuming all the virtual address space was physical memory and you wanted to make a copy onto a disk drive (32 Trillion Bytes - we didn't even have GigaBytes back in 1972, let alone TeraBytes), how long would a sustained WRITE at 1 MByte/second take? Hint: Answer should be in ONE digit of precision along with a time interval. Eager beavers who want to give us 8 significant figures of precision are disqualified. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From dburrows at netpath.net Mon Oct 26 07:37:43 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <006701be00e8$9a9bb160$a60b0b0b@p166> >Any Aussies out there know a good place to look for an ethernet adapter >that will fit a Microvax II? I have a nice machine, complete with VMS 5.4, >freshly rescued from a scrap metal yard, but it has no network adapter. For your ref. the delqa is a M7516 and add -YM for the "turbo" version. I just checked the DDA for any listed in Australia and none are listed. If you want I will go through the subscriber list and find some for you. >While I'm at it, AUI-10Base2(or t) transceivers are also getting rare, >(around here anyway) since I have a Vax 6220 in need as well, any good >sources? >S/H preferred. I'd like 2 or 3 if possible. I know it doesn't help much for shipping concerns but Datacom Warehouse carries them for about $25 either 10base2 or 10baset. www.warehouse.com >BTW, Huw, did you ever come across a source for a Vax 8530-Console cable? >(With that subject line, I just know you'll read this!) Which console cable are you looking for? I may have one. Dan Burrows 336-376-0468 dburrows@netpath.net From william at ans.net Mon Oct 26 08:32:27 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: bit addressing, alignment, bus errors, and VM (was Re: PDP-10 arch question) In-Reply-To: <36347E9A.DE713FD@idirect.com> Message-ID: > One other interesting aspect is that by convention, the OS assumed > that all of the top half of virtual memory belonged to the OS. Another > is that the hardware was the child of Seymore Cray. Are you certain of that? Cray designed the CDC 160, and had a hand in the CDC 6000s, but I do not think the STAR. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Oct 26 08:38:28 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:40 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Exactly. And the spacing between the tracks matters a lot. And having > sharp corners, and ... Be careful here...when using very fast logic (10G GaAs), you do NOT want 90 degree sharp bends. The best bet is to truncate the corners in a specific way so that the edges of the pulses reflect the direction you want them to go, and not back at the source. The Gigabit logic databooks have data on this. William Donzelli william@ans.net From kyrrin at jps.net Mon Oct 26 08:42:38 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: ASR33 touchtone keypad questions In-Reply-To: <199810260615.BAA21187@user2.infinet.com> References: <19981016134616.093bc097.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981026064238.0094e100@mail.jps.net> At 01:15 26-10-98 -0500, you wrote: >Top marking - 35Y3D 4-77 Wellllll... I don't recall how to connect them to a model 33, but the 'Radio Amateur's Handbook' should have a diagram that shows how to hook them up to at least get tones out of them. FYI, the 35Y3D was the standard pad in use in most 25xx series desk and wall phones for many years. >Top marking 35AF3A Aha! This is the same as the Y3D model, but with extra muting contacts for use with speakerphones. Those are hard to find. If you end up not using it, may I talk you out of it? I'll happily pay shipping (and, say, $5.00 extra?) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From gram at cnct.com Mon Oct 26 09:22:17 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: [off topic] comptech guys (was Re: TRS-80 emulators) References: Message-ID: <363493A9.206B75DC@cnct.com> Athanasios Kotsenos wrote: > when some phd student's file had gone corrupt (microsoft access i think it > was) she went into the dos prompt and did scandisk and all this other > totally irrelevant stuff when after i realised that she hadn't a clue i > spoke up and said that either the file is totally trashed (and it's your > problem you didn't keep backups) or the information is still there and you > may be able to salvage some of it or all of it if you open it up in notepad > which she did and it worked > but she couldn't handle the fact that she had to do so much cut and paste > still i think it would be better than retyping the whole thing in, don't u > agree? - it was a 10M file btw Back in my days as a Radio Shack Computer Center tech support guy, a customer came in with a crashed SuperScripsit file. (For any of you who remember, Model III SuperScripsit had the most fragile file format ever known to that point (though since exceeded by most of the Microsoft Word formats) -- if the first couple of sectors in a file were hosed, there went all of it. I did a sector-by-sector salvage of ASCII text into a CR-delimited file, but I never knew how well the salvage went, as the text was in Latin, a language I can only follow with extensive dictionary help. The customer took it back to his secretary and I never saw him again, though my previous salvages of his (English) files had been fairly frequent. (I take that back -- I've seen him a few times since on television since he shows up now and again in New Age and UFO documentaries -- Los Angeles can be a wonderful place that I miss intensely). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Mon Oct 26 09:27:32 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: >> What the heck are you compiling that requires over 500M of RAM during the >> compilation step? Netscape? I can't even conceive of something that >>large. well we had a Java application that ran to 1.5 million lines of code (OK, the definition of a 'line of code' is somewhat flexible, but you get my point), and that would chew up somewhere around 500MB in order to build (this was about 16 months ago; my memory's hazy on the exact amount). luckily only about 30,000 lines of that were hand-written, we built a code generator to do the rest :) cheers Jules From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Mon Oct 26 07:24:20 1998 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: bit addressing, alignment, bus errors, and VM (was Re: PDP-10 arch question) Message-ID: <802566A9.004E7E5A.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > Incidentally, a quick quiz. Assuming all the virtual address space was > physical memory and you wanted to make a copy onto a disk drive > (32 Trillion Bytes - we didn't even have GigaBytes back in 1972, let alone > TeraBytes), how long would a sustained WRITE at 1 MByte/second take? > Hint: Answer should be in ONE digit of precision along with a time interval. > Eager beavers who want to give us 8 significant figures of precision > are disqualified. Just over 1 year Just under 400 days Quite a bit under 60 weeks Just under 13 months ... oops, that was 2 sig. figs. Rather more than 10 months then. If you want even sillier units, and at the risk of reviving an off-topic debate, rather more than 30 megaseconds. Could these disks do a megabyte per second in 1972? Sounds rather fast to me... Philip. From gram at cnct.com Mon Oct 26 09:34:25 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: bit addressing, alignment, bus errors, and VM (was Re: PDP-10 arch question) References: <199810230234.AA00234@world.std.com> <19981023031547.7729.qmail@brouhaha.com> <36347E9A.DE713FD@idirect.com> Message-ID: <36349681.6C13DD48@cnct.com> Jerome Fine wrote: > Incidentally, a quick quiz. Assuming all the virtual address space was > physical memory and you wanted to make a copy onto a disk drive > (32 Trillion Bytes - we didn't even have GigaBytes back in 1972, let alone > TeraBytes), how long would a sustained WRITE at 1 MByte/second take? > Hint: Answer should be in ONE digit of precision along with a time interval. > Eager beavers who want to give us 8 significant figures of precision > are disqualified. One year (less almost two weeks vacation for the sysadmin who will surely need one by then) assuming no down time (in which case the sysadmin will _really_ need that vacation). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 26 09:38:48 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: Emulation or the real thing? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981026190033.00d202a0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19981021140801.00f16240@pc> <199810211858.OAA22516@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981026093848.00c4f6d0@pc> At 07:02 PM 10/26/98 +1100, Huw Davies wrote: >At 02:08 PM 21-10-98 -0500, John Foust wrote: > >>Today's Alpha/MIPS/PPC Windows machines contain an x86 emulation >>in ROM, used at boot-time to jump into and init the start-up ROMs of >>Wintel-market add-on cards for video, networking, etc. DEC/Compaq >>gives away an Intel emulator called FX!32 for Alpha boxes that can >>run Windows x86 binaries as-is. > >Well, FX!32 isn't an emulator, it's a binary level incremental translator. >Intel code in, alpha code out. Ah, you're nitpicking. :-) I didn't discuss the algorithms behind any of the other emulations I mentioned, either. To be fair, DEC's first press releases on it try to uniformly call it a "translation technology" although the word "emulate" creeps in a few times. FX!32 does both what we both might agree is "emulation" (direct reproduction of the results of each instruction) the first time it's asked to run an x86 executable. It caches the translated code of each execution path, and eventually the app runs faster and faster as more and more is run as translated code as opposed to emulated instructions. See the white paper at - John From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 26 10:59:49 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: EDSAC celebration? Message-ID: <199810261540.QAA15753@marina.fth.sbs.de> > P.S. IMO history shows that British computer designs are often MUCH more > sensible than their American contemporaries. They treat the computer as a > tool to be used rather than a hunk of hardware with software slapped on later. > Too bad history shows that British computer *sales* are LESS successful than > their American counterparts. Thats not only about the Brits. When it's up for sales, the Americans are just numer 1 (maybe they had just absorbed to many magrebinian shopkeppers/merchants :) I heared a nice quote some time ago: When it comes for a new product, on should place development in Europe, production in Japan and sales in the US. Not so wrong at all Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 26 10:13:23 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: eVay References: <01be0021$e7db9200$fac962cf@devlaptop> <36334D14.125C37C4@rain.org> <36335268.D878DFD8@bigfoot.com> <36336FE7.994389AB@rain.org> Message-ID: <36349FA3.9AC53F1F@rain.org> Marvin wrote: > > I have been curious about what the January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics > would bring on ebay, and now we can all find out. Current price is $40.61 > and it will close at 21:20 PDT. The URL for anyone interested is > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=37472905. I would Well, my curiousity has been satisfied. The *single* January 1995 issue of PopTronics closed at $122.50. I just *knew* that someday I would be a millionaire without having to actually do some work :). From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 26 10:17:39 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) References: Message-ID: <3634A0A2.F9847F12@rain.org> William Donzelli wrote: > > > Exactly. And the spacing between the tracks matters a lot. And having > > sharp corners, and ... > > Be careful here...when using very fast logic (10G GaAs), you do NOT want > 90 degree sharp bends. The best bet is to truncate the corners in a > specific way so that the edges of the pulses reflect the direction you > want them to go, and not back at the source. Ah yes, I found out about that when I looked at trace widths of the boards I had contracted to build, and found that the actual trace width at each of the corners you describe got down to the several mil area. Of course I found this out *after* I had taken on the job. And yes, the boards came out just fine although the reject rate was much higher than I would have preferred. From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 26 10:23:49 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: BOFH References: <199810230234.AA00234@world.std.com> <19981023031547.7729.qmail@brouhaha.com> <36347E9A.DE713FD@idirect.com> <36349681.6C13DD48@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3634A215.74F4A757@rain.org> For sysadmins and everyone with a perverted sense of humor, you might enjoy this site. A friend of mine turned me onto it a year or so ago, and almost always puts a smile on my face! The URL is http://www.networkweek.com/bofh.shtml. From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 26 12:31:01 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: ePay Message-ID: <199810261711.SAA23668@marina.fth.sbs.de> Sigh. I hate it. Sniped just seconds before the end. They should realy change their policy about ending time - these (automatic) snipers are realy not the way it should be. Waaaaaaaaah. Gruss H. sorry to use the list, but I had to cry ... I was happy until 5 minutes ago ... -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Oct 26 11:14:23 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: FW: [HeathKit] HERO Robots for sale Message-ID: Semi-on-topic forward... -----Original Message----- From: John Hagle [mailto:jhagle@netsync.net] Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 9:43 PM To: heathkit@qth.net Subject: [HeathKit] HERO Robots for sale Hi all. I have eight of the robots and an assortment of parts. Some manuals. In fact, at this point I am not sure of what I actually do have. If there is sufficient genuine interest in someone purchasing it all, I will inventory the collection and forward the info so we can negotiate a price that is mutually fair. Reason for sale is that I have insufficient time to do the needed work and programming etc. The joys and perils of being self employed, I guess. Date: 10/23/98 Time: 9:43:17 PM John R. Hagle N2JH ex - AA2GV and WA2SXH 6534 Klondyke Road Ripley, New York 14775 phone: (716) 736-2932 grid - FN02dg Western New York 6 meters thru 1296 --- Submissions heathkit@qth.net From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Oct 26 11:27:33 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) In-Reply-To: <36346F61.EEC@bright.net> References: <4.1.19981025221910.00976e80@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <199810261720.JAA15833@mxu4.u.washington.edu> At 07:47 AM 10/26/98 -0500, Alan wrote: >What really is amazing is that there are people out there who are either >uninformed about the true value of these computers or are just plain >ignorant. Let us not forget the economic principle of supply and demand. >As long as there are people willing to shell out the bucks for the item >they "demand" there will be someone else there to "supply." Have a nice >day. :) Correct, in the USA the 'worth' of something is what some buyer somewhere will pay for it, assuming you can notify said buyer that it is available for sale. What's it worth to me to buy a poorly made bean bag animal? Not even a dollar, but said animals sell at auction regularly for over $50 each. Hans made some comments on 'rare' versus 'desirable' too. The fact is that 'desirable' often translates to those items that were perceived as being significant in the history of the discipline in question. The Intellec isn't percieved as being as historically significant as the Altair, hence the price difference. The Apple 1 is seen as being the birth of a company that is still significant today, VIC20's are seen less so. TRS-80's are often seen as the first 'computer for the masses' (even though I would argue the Apple ][ fit that role as well). The education process will happen, and probably several people on this list are in a position to write the books that appraisers and future shoppers will live by. Consider the person who is born today, and will be in their 30's in 2033. They get the urge to collect 'historical pre-millenium computers.' and they will need help. They didn't "live the revolution" as many of us have, so we have yet another chance to influence things in a positive way. --Chuck From william at ans.net Mon Oct 26 11:26:15 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: ePay In-Reply-To: <199810261711.SAA23668@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: > Sigh. > I hate it. > Sniped just seconds before the end. > They should realy change their policy about > ending time - these (automatic) snipers are > realy not the way it should be. All I can say is... Hard cheese! Snipers, shills, and all of the other nasty things, some legally shakey, have been around since auctions were invented. Ebay is no different. At least there is no annoying auctioneer (actually an American thing - the European auctioneers do not talk at several hundered words per minute). I have been in the same situation quite a few times with Ebay, and now I must just live with bidding ONCE, and if I am outbid, then I do not win. None of this high-stress, keep-hitting-the-reload-button, waiting for me. William Donzelli william@ans.net From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Oct 26 11:27:43 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: ePay Message-ID: Aw, that guy on the single board computers was slow... he bid a whole 11 seconds before the end! Yesterday, I had somebody come in 6 seconds before the end (luckily he didn't outbid, but he cost me money, dammit). We have a saying here in America... "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em". Now, I never enter a bid until the last possible moment. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke [mailto:franke@sbs.de] Sent: Monday, October 26, 1998 10:32 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: ePay Sigh. I hate it. Sniped just seconds before the end. They should realy change their policy about ending time - these (automatic) snipers are realy not the way it should be. Waaaaaaaaah. Gruss H. sorry to use the list, but I had to cry ... I was happy until 5 minutes ago ... -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dogas at leading.net Mon Oct 26 11:35:05 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <01be0106$f7f654a0$ccc962cf@devlaptop> I've seen a VOXBOX on eBay (already priced out of my range....alas) Anyone familiar with this equipment? Any anecdotes? -Mike dogas@leading.net From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Mon Oct 26 08:49:57 1998 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) Message-ID: <802566A9.0054D9D7.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > "Max Eskin" wrote: >> No application _requires_ any number of bits > 1. It's a question of >> performance. After all, a Z80 could have 512M RAM, just not >> contiguously (and would probably require a lot of hardware to access >> it). > > OK, then the Z80 system will require 19 bits of address. Sure, some of those > bits aren't coming directly out of the CPU, but they're coming from > somewhere. Actually the figure is 29 bits (it was 512M not 512K) but I agree with you 100% in principle. The way I look at it is this: Memory sizes are growing exponentially. So address bus widths can be expected to grow linearly. It has taken roughly 30 years between 64K words or bytes getting tight (early '70s, DEC up the Unibus from 16 bit addressing to 18 bit, but there's probably an example from the late '60s) and now, when the 4 GWord or GByte address space of 32 bit addressing looks like it might get tight. (Note this is on small computers. On large computers, I'd estimate 10 years earlier in each case.) I therefore see address buses growing at 16 bits every 30 years. That's just over a bit every 2 years - slower than I expected but not much. Someone (I forget who) said that memory chips double in capacity every 18 months. This would give 16 bits in 24 years. I claim that the assertion that we'll see even 64-bit address spaces being used anything like up by 2003 is unfounded. According to that growth rate above, we will start hitting the limit of 48-bit addressing - 256 TWord - in the '20s, and the limit of 64-bit addressing, 16 exawords (or exabytes, possibly), in the '50s (or '40s at 1 bit per 18 months). Many of us will probably still be alive then (I shall be celebrating my 83rd birthday in March of 2050) - and I for one would like to see what sort of technology will be used to store 16 exabytes in a space smaller than a mountain! Philip. From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Oct 26 11:52:49 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: ePay In-Reply-To: <199810261711.SAA23668@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <199810261745.JAA19539@mxu4.u.washington.edu> OnSale has demonstrated that the 'until there have been no bids for 5 minutes' technique maximizes the price returned. So perhaps they should institute that form of auction closing. --Chuck At 06:32 PM 10/26/98 +0001, you wrote: >Sigh. >I hate it. >Sniped just seconds before the end. From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 26 13:03:02 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: ePay Message-ID: <199810261743.SAA11780@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> Sigh. >> I hate it. >> Sniped just seconds before the end. >> They should realy change their policy about >> ending time - these (automatic) snipers are >> realy not the way it should be. > Hard cheese! ??? I like hard cheese - hmm but I cant get the idea :=) > Snipers, shills, and all of the other nasty things, some legally shakey, > have been around since auctions were invented. Ebay is no different. eBay is different - a real auctioneer always gives the same amount of additional time after teh last Bid - ePay just cuts. I could imagine two possible ways - first add 1 hour after every (successful) bid. Or, second just state the ending day and put the ending time on a random moment. I would prefere the last one, because it would reflect the idea of proxy bidding - bid once and let the eBay do its job. > At > least there is no annoying auctioneer (actually an American thing - the > European auctioneers do not talk at several hundered words per minute). Funny to listen. > I have been in the same situation quite a few times with Ebay, and now I > must just live with bidding ONCE, and if I am outbid, then I do not win. > None of this high-stress, keep-hitting-the-reload-button, waiting for me. Ja- especialy when the ending time is something like noon EST (6PM MEZ) - that's the heavyest trafic time across the pond. My line was so slow, I needed some 5 Minutes for reloading :( Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 26 13:03:02 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: ePay Message-ID: <199810261743.SAA11819@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Aw, that guy on the single board computers was slow... he bid a whole 11 > seconds before the end! Yesterday, I had somebody come in 6 seconds before > the end (luckily he didn't outbid, but he cost me money, dammit). Hey, do you want to get a laughter on me ... grrr. :) > We have a saying here in America... "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em". Now, > I never enter a bid until the last possible moment. Not possible at high traffic times over here. Also, I don't need this kind of auctions - eBay would be a real nice idea without snipeing. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Mon Oct 26 09:17:46 1998 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <802566A9.0059438C.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > Speaking of A-F keys, does anyone here use any of the alternative > keyboards available for PC XTs and ATs? I'm curious if anyone has > ever seen the IrmaKey/3270 (IIRC) keyboards. They must have something > like 130 keys, but I have no idea how to program the macro keys. > Anyone know? I never saw a special keyboard for Irma. The IBM 3270-PC had a special cable with 3 connectors. One for the 3270 card, one for the keyboard port on the motherboard and one for the keyboard itself. The 3270 card trapped most of the extra keys. ISTR that Autocad had extra keypads and things that you could get for use alongside the PC keyboard, but I have no idea how they worked. Extra port I imagine. Philip. From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 26 13:40:01 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit! Message-ID: <199810261820.TAA05168@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> "Max Eskin" wrote: >>> No application _requires_ any number of bits > 1. It's a question of >>> performance. After all, a Z80 could have 512M RAM, just not >>> contiguously (and would probably require a lot of hardware to access >>> it). >> >> OK, then the Z80 system will require 19 bits of address. Sure, >> some of those bits aren't coming directly out of the CPU, but >> they're coming from somewhere. > Actually the figure is 29 bits (it was 512M not 512K) but I agree with you > 100% in principle. > The way I look at it is this: [...] > I therefore see address buses growing at 16 bits every 30 years. That's > just over a bit every 2 years - slower than I expected but not much. > Someone (I forget who) said that memory chips double in capacity every 18 > months. This would give 16 bits in 24 years. Interesting szenario, especialy when connected to the Mores Law (didn't he tell this regarding integration ?). > I claim that the assertion that we'll see even 64-bit address spaces being > used anything like up by 2003 is unfounded. According to that growth rate > above, we will start hitting the limit of 48-bit addressing - 256 TWord - > in the '20s, and the limit of 64-bit addressing, 16 exawords (or exabytes, > possibly), in the '50s (or '40s at 1 bit per 18 months). Many of us will > probably still be alive then (I shall be celebrating my 83rd birthday in > March of 2050 ) Hmm I will have my 88th by then - jets join :) > - and I for one would like to see what sort of technology > will be used to store 16 exabytes in a space smaller than a mountain! The size isn't the real problem - you already get 16 Gig in less than 320 cm^3 (using hard disk technology) which is more than 100 Meg per cm^3, which gives us 100x100x100x100 Meg or 100 Tera per m^3 (Only heat will be a problem, but if we assume that this will shrink by the factor 2 within the next few years, we get enough space for cooling without developing a new technology). 100 Tera are 100x2^40 Bytes so, for 16 exabytes you need 10x2^18 m^3 or 64x64x64x10 m^3 - just the size of a ordinary 160 store skyscraper. Nothing real big - isn't it? - and especialy not a mountain. and if we assume a increasing density by 10 within the next years, it is less than a warehouse. This is all just (near) todays technology - the real problem is the access time .... A wire could come up to 100m between a starage device at the perhipherieal area and a 64 Bit computer in the middle - 100m thats just 1/3.000.000s or 333ns traveling time ... seams we have created some kind of piplineing prior to the CPU :) So, calulating a 1 us round trip time, we just could runn a 4 MHz Z80 ... hmm didn't he ask for 64 Bit Z80 ? (I just left the disc acces time out of calculation, but acording to any information availabel from disk manufacturers the internal caches will eliminate this almost to zero :) Gruss Hans P.S.: for 128 Bit address range we just have to enhance the building by a bit more than 1.000.000 in each direction. Giving a size of 5x128.000.000x128.000.000x128.000.000 m^3 or 5x128.000x128.000x128.000 km^3 compared to volume of earth 20.000x 20.000x 20.000 km^3 (just my memory) And dont forget the traveling time of signals of something like .6 seconds across the cube. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From david_a._vandenbroucke at hud.gov Mon Oct 26 12:23:26 1998 From: david_a._vandenbroucke at hud.gov (david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: ePay Message-ID: <9810269094.AA909425727@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> I've taken the position that I'm going to deliberately ignore the snipers. I usually bid on the first day listed. I ask myself, "What is the maximum I'm _really_ willing to pay for this?" and that's what I bid. I get outbid on the last day (I don't track it more closely than that) fairly often, but it means that the high bidder is paying more than I would, and I can't argue with that. As often as not, when I'm outbid, my disappointment is tinged with relief: "Did I really bid _that_ much? What was I thinking of?" On the whole, I find it liberating to just bid my maximum and let the chips fall where they may. Dav Vandenbroucke Economist U.S. Dept. HUD david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From jruschme at exit109.com Mon Oct 26 12:22:23 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: ePay In-Reply-To: <199810261743.SAA11780@marina.fth.sbs.de> from Hans Franke at "Oct 26, 98 07:04:02 pm" Message-ID: <199810261822.NAA24847@crobin.home.org> > > Snipers, shills, and all of the other nasty things, some legally shakey, > > have been around since auctions were invented. Ebay is no different. > > eBay is different - a real auctioneer always gives the same > amount of additional time after teh last Bid - ePay just cuts. > > I could imagine two possible ways - first add 1 hour after every > (successful) bid. Or, second just state the ending day and put > the ending time on a random moment. > > I would prefere the last one, because it would reflect the > idea of proxy bidding - bid once and let the eBay do its job. Ooh, I like that second idea! For a long time, I've been advocating the first idea (automatic extension), but it does have some drawbacks: - Still requires that e-mail to the person outbid be faster than the time remaining in the auction (a big problem now). - Potential for the "never-ending auction". - Offerer requirements that an auction *must* end by a certain time. As you can tell, I've bee sniped too. <<>> From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 26 13:54:03 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) Message-ID: <199810261834.TAA15859@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>As long as there are people willing to shell out the bucks for the item >>they "demand" there will be someone else there to "supply." > Correct, in the USA the 'worth' of something is what some buyer somewhere > will pay for it, assuming you can notify said buyer that it is available > for sale. What's it worth to me to buy a poorly made bean bag animal? Not > even a dollar, but said animals sell at auction regularly for over $50 each. Short note - there's a quote in Germany: Jeden Tag steht ein Dummer auf, Du musst ihn nur finden. Literaly: Every day a dump person gets up, you just have to find him. > Hans made some comments on 'rare' versus 'desirable' too. The fact is that > 'desirable' often translates to those items that were perceived as being > significant in the history of the discipline in question. The Intellec > isn't percieved as being as historically significant as the Altair, hence > the price difference. The Apple 1 is seen as being the birth of a company > that is still significant today, VIC20's are seen less so. TRS-80's are > often seen as the first 'computer for the masses' (even though I would > argue the Apple ][ fit that role as well). Same with me. I realy would like ti get the Intellec, especialy see him running, but Jim has a price in mind, witch is (maybe cut by half) possible to get via eBay, but way out of my reach. The sad thing is that the buyer might only want parts for display, ("look what a nice old machine I have there in my hall" - "Oh, "what is is?" - "Just read, ts written there: Intellec" - "God help, how could they compute with only some lamps and switches?") and will eventualy take the whole configuration apart. > The education process will happen, and probably several people on this list > are in a position to write the books that appraisers and future shoppers > will live by. Consider the person who is born today, and will be in their > 30's in 2033. They get the urge to collect 'historical pre-millenium > computers.' and they will need help. They didn't "live the revolution" as > many of us have, so we have yet another chance to influence things in a > positive way. How could you just sound so positiv ? :) Gruss H. P.S.: I orderes a nice acrylic case this morning. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From william at ans.net Mon Oct 26 12:40:21 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: ePay In-Reply-To: <199810261743.SAA11780@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: > ??? I like hard cheese - hmm but I cant get the idea :=) Some cheese is good hard, but not those that are supposed to be soft. Could this be leading to the most off-topic thread this list has ever seen? > eBay is different - a real auctioneer always gives the same > amount of additional time after teh last Bid - ePay just cuts. Not always, especially if there are a great deal of lots. I think Ebay is half way between an open and sealed auction. William Donzelli william@ans.net From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 26 13:59:30 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: ePay Message-ID: <199810261839.TAA24160@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> I could imagine two possible ways - first add 1 hour after every >> (successful) bid. Or, second just state the ending day and put >> the ending time on a random moment. >> I would prefere the last one, because it would reflect the >> idea of proxy bidding - bid once and let the eBay do its job. > Ooh, I like that second idea! > For a long time, I've been advocating the first idea (automatic extension), > but it does have some drawbacks: > - Still requires that e-mail to the person outbid be faster than > the time remaining in the auction (a big problem now). > - Potential for the "never-ending auction". > - Offerer requirements that an auction *must* end by a certain time. Jep. If not eBay, maybe another system will pick up the idea. This could maybe give em the right difference for competition. The whole computer bidding idea is to save nerves. > As you can tell, I've bee sniped too. This is the first time I realy likes a thing so much, that I had put up a real high bid - and every thing seamed to work out well :( Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From david_a._vandenbroucke at hud.gov Mon Oct 26 12:43:57 1998 From: david_a._vandenbroucke at hud.gov (david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: ePay Message-ID: <9810269094.AA909426970@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> I also play and collect board wargames, and for those a major trading center is rec.games.board.marketplace, although eBay is important too. In non-eBay auctions, it's common to use a going, going, gone format, with each step occuring after a couple of _days_ of no bids. That seems a much more reasonable way to make sure that everybody who wants to be heard from has the chance. I do like eBay's system of paying just over the second highest bid, as it lets you bid once and then wait until the end. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 26 14:08:59 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa Message-ID: <199810261849.TAA01692@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? >>Probably same place mine went: loaned, not returned. I still have ":More >>BASIC Computer Games: 84 Fabulous Games for Your Personal Computer", >>though. > Small world. One summer home from college, I loaned mine to the > kid brother of a girl I liked. A few weeks later I saw their > step-father who told me his wife had just left him and taken > the kids with her. Never saw any of them (the kid, the girl > or the book) again. Hard to loose a beloved one - and always about girls :) SCNR Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Oct 26 12:57:12 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: ebay Message-ID: <199810261857.LAA18113@calico.litterbox.com> How to get what you want on e-bay 1. Bid more than anybody else through proxy bidding. This way when somebody else bids, the system will bid you up (to your max) automatically when someone else bids. If you want it bad enough, you can get it, but it may cost you. 2. Learn the fine art of sniping. I live with a longtime e-bay user (my wife) who has the distinction of a 0 second snipe - it came in and was recognised some fraction of a second before the auction closed. She did it manually too. :) There IS sniping software, apparently, too. 3. My wife assures me that EVERYTHING comes around again, btw. Especially computers. She suggests patience. 4. Finally, to avoid heartache from being sniped, don't assume you have a thing until you get the notification you won. Until you get that, the thing isn't yours. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From franke at sbs.de Mon Oct 26 14:16:23 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: ebay Message-ID: <199810261856.TAA25057@marina.fth.sbs.de> > 1. Bid more than anybody else through proxy bidding. This way when > somebody else bids, the system will bid you up (to your max) automatically > when someone else bids. If you want it bad enough, you can get it, but > it may cost you. Jep, but to be shure, it has to be high, real high :( > 2. Learn the fine art of sniping. I live with a longtime e-bay user (my wife) > who has the distinction of a 0 second snipe - it came in and was recognised > some fraction of a second before the auction closed. She did it manually > too. :) There IS sniping software, apparently, too. Just a NO. Maybe I'm stupid and old fashionated, but sniping is just not possible. > 3. My wife assures me that EVERYTHING comes around again, btw. Especially > computers. She suggests patience. Jep, but this lot was real neat. (And the next will be the one with the SC/MPs .. sigh). I don't know if this will be around again, so nicly bundled > 4. Finally, to avoid heartache from being sniped, don't assume you have > a thing until you get the notification you won. Until you get that, > the thing isn't yours. Sag but true. Ciao hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Oct 26 13:00:07 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: Heathkit Advanced weather station backlight problem? Message-ID: Greetings all; I've got the Heathkit 'Advanced Weather Station' (it fits the charter: its old and has a Z-80 running it! B^} ) which (still) seems to have the classic problem of blowing fuses (and other things) once or twice a year as the fluorescent tube used for the LCD backlighting ages. There was a rumour that Heath had developed a mod for the power supply to deal with this, but this was also right around the time that Heath was bailing out of the kit business and closing their retail outlets so the staff at the time was much less than interested in trying to track down this information. I've finally got annoyed enough at this recurring ritual, that it is either time to find a fix, or off the thing in favour of a 'Davis' unit (or similar) Anyone out there have the information on this mod? (or can confirm that it never existed?) Thanks; -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From aaron at wfi-inc.com Mon Oct 26 13:05:24 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: Now quite OT: Re: ePay In-Reply-To: <199810261743.SAA11780@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: > I would prefere the last one, because it would reflect the > idea of proxy bidding - bid once and let the eBay do its job. I personally *hate* the proxy bid idea. At least how it works on eBay. There's not many things as demoralizing than seeing something nifty with a bid of $2.00 on it and someone has put a maximum bid of $50.00 on it. The whole fun of an incremental auction is the small jumps in bidding and that soul-searching question you have to ask yourself each time you're outbid: "Do I really want to go a buck higher on that [insert item here]?" If there's going to be a "maximum" bid, then it should just be a sealed-bid auction, where everyone secretly bids whatever they want to pay and the highest wins, with no bid amounts being disclosed. Unfortunately, if there's something you really want, you have to play by the rules and suffer through it. I try not to "snipe" anyone...it's a karma thing. But I do usually hold my bidding until within a couple of hours before the end of the auction. If the person I outbid in turn outbids me immediately, I take it as a sign that they really want the item and most of the time I'll move along to something else. What I'd love to see is a live auction site, where the auctions for each item don't last more than 10 minutes or so. Descriptions/pictures for the items could be on a separate server a week in advance (like the preview for a real auction) and an item catalog that people could print out. Then the auctions would take place, say, once or at most twice per week in each category. A real-time auction applet (unfortunately excluding the lynx/shell crowd) could then be used to broadcast the current bid and to "raise your paddle" as well. Only one integer broadcasted by the host for the current bid amount, one for the item number, one to indicate the current "round" number, and one sent from the user to raise the bidding paddle. Users could have previously logged in with their username and password and given their paddle and bidder number. Much faster than fifty people hitting reload on a large HTML page filled with graphics, what with only three bytes out and one byte in! The result? A smooth, fast auction where everyone has the chance to bid to their hearts content. Aaron From ai705 at osfn.org Mon Oct 26 13:07:30 1998 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: ePay In-Reply-To: <9810269094.AA909425727@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov wrote: > I've taken the position that I'm going to deliberately ignore the > snipers. I usually bid on the first day listed. I ask myself, "What > is the maximum I'm _really_ willing to pay for this?" and that's what > I bid. I get outbid on the last day (I don't track it more closely > than that) fairly often, but it means that the high bidder is paying > more than I would, and I can't argue with that. As often as not, when > I'm outbid, my disappointment is tinged with relief: "Did I really > bid _that_ much? What was I thinking of?" > Well I guess I may as well chime in on this lovely off-topic subject. Yes, I snipe at least 95% of the time. It is the only way to achieve a 70 or 80 % success ratio. Ill-described auctions or stuff out of favor and snipe at the end. I believe Ebay just made a recent change that negated the use of most automated software snipe helpers. I don't know what the scheme was, but somehow the software hooked into Ebay code and made things more certain. Anybody have an idea what this was about? One can still script an auto-dialin with an accurate clock on your own machine or just manually snipe. I have never relied on any automated solution. Sniping is not 100% certain either. It still is possible to submit a bid late, to not be at a useful machine at a key moment, to simply forget, or to be outbid anyway (more of a trend lately). Rather than looking at sniping as a "bug", perhaps it should be considered a "feature". There are scavengers in all ecosystems. I guarantee you the powers at Ebay probably consider sniping to be an asset. If they got rid of it, bid traffic would be 20 or 30% lower and prices overall (complete total) might actually be lower. Perhaps sniping is one of those key reasons why Ebay has grown so large. I have a much longer note in the can on the subject of Ebay, which I am still polishing up and will post in a couple of days. Hopefully I can include enough on topic material within to justify its size. -- Stephen Dauphin From aaron at wfi-inc.com Mon Oct 26 13:14:42 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: ePay In-Reply-To: <199810261839.TAA24160@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > The whole computer bidding idea is to save nerves. Maybe it's because as a kid I went to too many weekend firehouse-auctions with my dad (rural Pennsylvania), but there's nothing like being amped up on 6 cups of coffee and hot dog phosphates and raising your paddle, all shaky from caffeine, while trying to translate genuine American auctioneer gibberish... From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Mon Oct 26 08:23:21 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit! In-Reply-To: <199810261820.TAA05168@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <199810261917.OAA16562@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 19:41:01 +1 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Hans Franke" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit! > >> "Max Eskin" wrote: Snip! > The size isn't the real problem - you already get 16 Gig in less > than 320 cm^3 (using hard disk technology) which is more than > 100 Meg per cm^3, which gives us 100x100x100x100 Meg or 100 Tera > per m^3 (Only heat will be a problem, but if we assume that this > will shrink by the factor 2 within the next few years, we get > enough space for cooling without developing a new technology). > 100 Tera are 100x2^40 Bytes so, for 16 exabytes you need > 10x2^18 m^3 or 64x64x64x10 m^3 - just the size of a ordinary > 160 store skyscraper. Nothing real big - isn't it? - and especialy > not a mountain. and if we assume a increasing density by 10 within > the next years, it is less than a warehouse. > > This is all just (near) todays technology - the real problem > is the access time .... A wire could come up to 100m between > a starage device at the perhipherieal area and a 64 Bit computer > in the middle - 100m thats just 1/3.000.000s or 333ns traveling > time ... seams we have created some kind of piplineing prior > to the CPU :) So, calulating a 1 us round trip time, we just > could runn a 4 MHz Z80 ... hmm didn't he ask for 64 Bit Z80 ? > > (I just left the disc acces time out of calculation, but acording > to any information availabel from disk manufacturers the internal > caches will eliminate this almost to zero :) > > Gruss > Hans Not so... We can have 1 Terabytes now. Seagate just announced their new drives in 3.5" I think in 50GB. Use 20 of them and still fit in 1 minicomputer box. And can be run off the 15A 115VAC or two plus the computer iteslf. :) Jason D. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 26 13:17:36 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: Now quite OT: Re: ePay References: Message-ID: <3634CAD0.B2508389@rain.org> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > What I'd love to see is a live auction site, where the auctions for each > item don't last more than 10 minutes or so. Descriptions/pictures for the Any particular time you would like to see it held :). The advantage of proxy bidding is being able to bid on something that ends at a time when you are not at the computer. Couple of comments though on ebay bidding. 1) By bidding the maximum you are willing to pay, if/when you get outbid, who cares! 2) The only problem (I see) with bidding early is that others see the bid amount and might end up in a competitive situation of bidding higher just for the thrill of being in an auction and winning. Seems to me that live auctions have far more potential for this than ebay. 3) I will occassionally bid early, but that is only to keep the daily notifications coming from ebay of what I have bid on ... and of course to see any outbid notices. I learned a long time ago not to bid the maximum early, but to wait for the last minute or so of the auction to make my final bid. If a sniper wants it more than I do, they should be allowed to pay for that priviledge :)! From william at ans.net Mon Oct 26 13:23:22 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit! In-Reply-To: <199810261917.OAA16562@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: > We can have 1 Terabytes now. Seen it. Lots of racks, but very possible, and used by many people everyday. I wonder who I could be talking about... William Donzelli william@ans.net From david_a._vandenbroucke at hud.gov Mon Oct 26 13:43:22 1998 From: david_a._vandenbroucke at hud.gov (david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: Now quite OT: Re: ePay Message-ID: <9810269094.AA909430584@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> Aaron says: >>I personally *hate* the proxy bid idea. At least how it works on eBay....The whole fun of an incremental auction is the small jumps in bidding and that soul-searching question you have to ask yourself each time you're outbid: "Do I really want to go a buck higher on that [insert item here]?" << Ah, well, there you go. I don't see auctions as something fun, particularly. I see them as a way to buy things, either things that I can't easily get any other way (such as old computers), or at a price below what I'd pay if I bought it retail. The process isn't a form of recreation for me. I'd prefer that eBay was either sealed auction or restricted to one bid per person, with the high bid being set as now, at an increment over the second highest. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From aaron at wfi-inc.com Mon Oct 26 14:08:50 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: Now quite OT: Re: ePay In-Reply-To: <3634CAD0.B2508389@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote: > 2) The only problem (I see) with bidding early is that others see the bid > amount and might end up in a competitive situation of bidding higher just > for the thrill of being in an auction and winning. Seems to me that live > auctions have far more potential for this than ebay. One thing ebay could benefit from is a "comment" card attached to each auction, where people could post their thoughts on items for auction. I.e., you could post "I just bought one at a thrift for $12.50" when the bidding for an Atari 1200xl goes over $100... A quick side about real auctions: I was just at one where someone bought a laserjet 5si for $500 *over* CDW's current retail price. And I bought a *brand new* laserjet 4000 for $450 *total*, because it was being used by the auctioneer to print invoices and such and wasn't available for inspection. There will never be a substitute for knowing your merchandise, and there's always someone at an auction who'll pay $1000 for a PS/2 just to "win" it from a competing bidder, regardless of the venue or type of auction. But a public posting place to comment would sure relieve some of the stress... Aaron From K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz Mon Oct 26 15:14:32 1998 From: K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz (Keith Whitehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Message-ID: Well this list used to be good, now it has degenerated into 80%+ noise. I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers What does a modern college education have to do with old computers I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. Go back and re-read what this list was supposed to be about. 99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites. k.j.whitehead@massey.ac.nz Keith Whitehead Electronics Technician Electronics Services Institute of Fundamental Sciences Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand 5301 From william at ans.net Mon Oct 26 14:18:37 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: Now quite OT: Re: ePay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > One thing ebay could benefit from is a "comment" card attached to each > auction, where people could post their thoughts on items for auction. > I.e., you could post "I just bought one at a thrift for $12.50" when > the bidding for an Atari 1200xl goes over $100... Why would they want to do that? It would be the same as shooting themselves in the foot. William Donzelli william@ans.net From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Oct 26 14:17:07 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: BOFH Message-ID: <199810262018.PAA05535@gate.usaor.net> um... it dosen't work. ---------- > From: Marvin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: BOFH > Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 11:23 AM > > For sysadmins and everyone with a perverted sense of humor, you might enjoy > this site. A friend of mine turned me onto it a year or so ago, and almost > always puts a smile on my face! The URL is > http://www.networkweek.com/bofh.shtml. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Oct 26 14:31:59 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: Now quite OT: Re: ePay In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Oct 26, 1998 12:08:50 PM Message-ID: <199810262032.NAA18558@calico.litterbox.com> Actually Ebay has a firm policy AGAINST that kind of thing. They will kick you off if they catch you e-mailing the bidders, or otherwise doing what, from their perspective, constitutes sabatoging an auction. Ebay is set up to benefit the sellers, since they're the ones who pay e-bay's fees. It would not be in their interest to allow comments on an auction. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From william at ans.net Mon Oct 26 14:27:49 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers Not a helluvabunch. I have to agree with you there... > What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers Lots. Many of the rare (and not so rare) machines are being valued out of our hands. > What does a modern college education have to do with old computers OK, again, not much. > I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found > that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot > checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. That sounds about right. Horrible s/n on this list, but at least no porn. William Donzelli william@ans.net From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 26 14:27:22 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Message-ID: <981026152722.2220034b@trailing-edge.com> >I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information >about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software >wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. To tell you the truth, I'm not sure it ever really served the purpose of "getting information". There have always been better ways of obtaining the information you're after. >99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites. I'd estimate that of the technical questions asked here, 95% of them have easily found answers at a web site or a Usenet FAQ. Strangely enough, though, few folks responding ever list these sources of information, so the cycle of "ask question with well-known answer/receive 20 followups containing the information" continues. Tim. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Oct 26 14:35:47 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: from "Keith Whitehead" at Oct 27, 1998 09:14:32 AM Message-ID: <199810262035.NAA18602@calico.litterbox.com> ebay - old computers -> they SELL them there frequently. modern college education - old computers -> Are modern CS users competant to operate old computers? 64 bit Z80 bus... - old computers -> um... discussions of issues relating to fabrication of high speed computers - it's interesting, and explains a lot why old computers WEREN'T done that way. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Oct 26 14:34:08 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening References: Message-ID: <3634DCBF.5A898575@bigfoot.com> What does this have to do with it as well? Most people unsubscribe once a list becomes of no use to them, quietly. Keith Whitehead wrote: > Well this list used to be good, now it has degenerated into 80%+ noise. > > I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information > about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software > wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. > > What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers > What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers > What does a modern college education have to do with old computers > > I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found > that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot > checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. > > Go back and re-read what this list was supposed to be about. > > 99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites. > > k.j.whitehead@massey.ac.nz > > Keith Whitehead > Electronics Technician > Electronics Services > Institute of Fundamental Sciences > Massey University > Palmerston North > New Zealand > 5301 From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 26 14:39:30 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: BOFH References: <199810262018.PAA05535@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <3634DE02.D8A5A101@rain.org> Jason Willgruber wrote: > > um... it dosen't work. > > > always puts a smile on my face! The URL is > > http://www.networkweek.com/bofh.shtml. Just tried it, and it worked fine. Did you retype it in wrong? From Netscape, I just clicked on the URL in the message and went directly there. From van at wired.com Mon Oct 26 14:45:16 1998 From: van at wired.com (Van Burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: AY 3500 In-Reply-To: <199810232110.OAA12972@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <981023165710.22200161@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 23, 98 04:57:10 pm Message-ID: Hi there... If you look at any of the early (1976) Radio Shack TV Scoreboards, they all contain a skeet/shooting mode with light gun. The chip contained six games...four variations on ping-pong (doubles/hockey/soccer, etc) and two shooting variations. Look at the Wonder Wizard Bulls-Eye and others for examples of this. The AY-3-8500 was developed in the Scottish labs of General Instruments in 1975. Magnavox was somewhat involved in the development process, some of their sub-contracted engineers did visit the labs to test the chips. Aside from them, Radio Shack, Coleco, and Radofin were among the biggest clients. There was _huge_ demand for the chip, so much so that they (GI) couldn't fill all of the orders. Many of the smaller clone-makers went under as a result. The only "clone" chip I am aware of was developed at National Semiconductor, they marketed a machine called the Adversary in 1976 containing this technology... I have more info if you're really interested. xoxo van >::>Anyone know anything about the famous AY-3500 chip, manufactured by >::>General Instruments, heart of a zillion Pong clones? >:: >::What do you want to know? >:: >::For pinouts and examples of use, you would find construction articles in >::then mid-late 70's issues of _Radio-Electronics_ and _Popular >::Electronics_ quite useful. > >Okay, I'll check those out. What I was interested in was what variants >exist, how it was programmed, and if there were any clones. There's an >obscure Commodore Pong machine called the TV Game 3000H, which sounds a bit >like the Magnavox Odyssey 3000, except the TVG 3000H has a light gun mode >which I haven't seen on any others (except maybe the Telstar?). > >Any ideas? > >-- >-------------------------- personal page: >http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- >Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database >Programmer >Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 >2581 >ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 >2539 >-- The most valuable antiques are old friends. >-------------------------------- ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === BNL |- - - - Phase Shifter - - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.8424 Trans- ] ]]] (A) futura lounge 415.647.4523 (B) ? (C) SELECT GAME mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com designer wired digital 660 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 usa ........................................................................ van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 26 14:47:18 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: ePay In-Reply-To: <199810261839.TAA24160@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > Jep. If not eBay, maybe another system will pick up the idea. > This could maybe give em the right difference for competition. I wish it were this simple. eBay already has the reputation among "collectors" (I use that term to include the speculators and idiots as well) as being THE place to go to sell and buy vintage computers. I'd much rather this place be Haggle Online since that site has a specific "Antique Computers" listing (http://www.haggle.com/cache/cat43.html). Someone has to come along and actively market their site as THE place to buy/sell vintage computers, and then institute a good auction policy that will cut down on the gripes we are hearing here. Just for the record, my preference would be a one/twice/sold format, or to keep extending the auction by some significant period (an hour perhaps) until no more bids are received. This is how its done in real life and it seems to work well so why try to fix it? Its fair, and eventually the guy who wanted it less does go away. It does tend to benefit the seller though as some people can get carried away. In that case the last bid of the next buyer gets it at the price they last bid. Anyway, this isn't hard. Its just a matter of moving all the action off of eBay to somewhere more worthy. If everyone here (I know a lot of you are still foolish enough to play eBay) would agree to an alternate location that is perhaps built BY us, then we could lure away all the other people who aren't on this list eventually and create the premier vintage computer auction house on the web. Eventually, when this stuff REALLY becomes valuable, we'll have a virtual stranglehold on the vintage computer auction market. I'm ready to start if someone is willing to follow my lead. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From cad at gamewood.net Mon Oct 26 14:39:40 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:41 2005 Subject: BOFH References: <199810262018.PAA05535@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <3634DE0C.4452@gamewood.net> Jason Willgruber wrote: > > um... it dosen't work. > > ---------- > > From: Marvin > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Subject: BOFH > > Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 11:23 AM > > > > For sysadmins and everyone with a perverted sense of humor, you might > enjoy > > this site. A friend of mine turned me onto it a year or so ago, and > almost > > always puts a smile on my face! The URL is > > http://www.networkweek.com/bofh.shtml. Did for me 10/26/98 -- probably about noonish. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 26 14:49:14 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: AY 3500 Message-ID: <981026154914.2220034b@trailing-edge.com> >examples of this. The AY-3-8500 was developed in the Scottish labs of >General Instruments in 1975. Magnavox was somewhat involved in the It's not nearly the same as the AY-3-8500, but I just dug up my copy of _How To Design & Build Your Own Custom TV Games_ by David L Heiserman (1978). He describes systems based around TTL and linear IC's, some of them rather involved (over 100 SSI/MSI packages, in some cases!) Of course, there are no microprocessors involved... :-) Tim. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 26 14:51:39 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: ebay In-Reply-To: <199810261856.TAA25057@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > > 1. Bid more than anybody else through proxy bidding. This way when > > somebody else bids, the system will bid you up (to your max) automatically > > when someone else bids. If you want it bad enough, you can get it, but > > it may cost you. > > Jep, but to be shure, it has to be high, real high :( As high as $12,000? Only to have someone bid $12,100? > > 2. Learn the fine art of sniping. I live with a longtime e-bay user (my wife) > > who has the distinction of a 0 second snipe - it came in and was recognised > > some fraction of a second before the auction closed. She did it manually > > too. :) There IS sniping software, apparently, too. > > Just a NO. Maybe I'm stupid and old fashionated, > but sniping is just not possible. I stopped using eBay simply for this reason. The format makes it impossible to carry on a fair bid process and weed out the weenies. > > 3. My wife assures me that EVERYTHING comes around again, btw. Especially > > computers. She suggests patience. > > Jep, but this lot was real neat. > (And the next will be the one with the SC/MPs .. sigh). > I don't know if this will be around again, so nicly bundled If you look hard enough, you can ALWAYS find something around you, cheaper, and it won't cost you shipping. This is of course more true for some people than others (like a poor slob in Alaska trying to collect computers) but I've learned this lesson many times. Everything I've ever bought off eBay has turned up locally for a fraction of the price. Sometimes only a week later. An alternate to eBay is needed. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 26 14:50:58 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening References: Message-ID: <3634E0B2.5CBC7BEA@rain.org> Keith Whitehead wrote: > > I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information > about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software > wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. I joined for the same reason, and for me, it does serve that purpose. > What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers A Z80 qualifies as discussion material within the guidelines of the FAQ. How it is used or can be used also qualifies. > What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers Many of us are collectors, and as such, ebay is one of the few places where a value can be attached to these computers. What is the difference between gripes about ebay, and gripes about the bus problems on the original Altair. The discussions on both address solutions. > What does a modern college education have to do with old computers Easy, the same thing that any discussion here has to do with old computers. Education is something that goes on for every intelligent persons lifetime, and perspective is an important part of education. When parts of modern education place little or no value on things that some of us think are important, there is enough experience on this list to say that perhaps modern education is not doing a very good job. And that affects what is (for most of us) our hobby. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Oct 26 15:01:07 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Haggle Online (RE: ePay) Message-ID: > I'd > much rather this place be Haggle Online since that site has a specific > "Antique Computers" listing (http://www.haggle.com/cache/cat43.html). Since Haggle is actually owned by a member of this list, I wonder if we get to see all of the _really_ good stuff :) Kai From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 26 15:01:52 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Keith Whitehead wrote: > Well this list used to be good, now it has degenerated into 80%+ noise. > > I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information > about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software > wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. With that I think its time to post the FAQ again... P.S. I have decided to take on the responsibility for maintaining the FAQ. I'm currently working on a much expanded version that mainly adds information regarding oft asked questions. I've been collecting informative posts over the last several weeks and will be incorporating them into a master knowledge base that will be available from the Vintage Computer Festival web site. This will take me about another 6 weeks so be patient. ============================================================================= DO NOT DISPOSE OF THIS PART OF THE FAQ. THIS IS THE PART THAT EXPLAINS HOW YOU CAN SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE. IT WILL TAKE ME MORE TIME TO DO THESE THINGS FOR YOU THAN IT WILL TAKE FOR YOU TO DO THEM YOURSELF ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 1 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy Mail/Internet Basics FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.3 Last Update: 12/10/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). This FAQ is Part 1 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented deals with the use of mailing lists and internet-specific tools. If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://haliotis.bothell washington.edu/classiccmp or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.188 in the directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as cclpart1.faq. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: Nothing new, cosmetic changes. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Mailing Lists ---------------- 1.1 Mailing List Basics 1.2 How to Talk to the Robot How to set to Digest How to Subscribe How to Unsubscribe 2. FTP ------ 2.1 FTP Basics 3. World Wide Web ----------------- 3.1 WWW Basics ============================================================================= 1.1 Mailing List Basics A mailing list is a simple device which takes an e-mail and redistributes it to a group of people. People can add and remove themselves from the distribution list by Subscribing and Unsubscribing. When you send a message to the list, it is first examined by the robot for key words that tell it to process an automatic funtion (like help, subscribe, unsubscribe, etc). If the message does not contain a keyword it is sent to the distribution list. 1.2 How to Talk to the Robot There are a few List Processor commands that you might want to use. To send a command to the list processor, write a message to listproc@u.washington.edu (Do NOT send the message to classiccmp@u.washington.edu). In the body of the message (not the subject line, that is) write one of the following commands, then send the message. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL ACK Tells the robot to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. This is the default. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL NOACK Tells the robot NOT to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. I don't recommend this. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST Tells the robot to send you a digest of messages rather than each as it is posted. With this option you will get a weekly bundle of messages and keep a nice, tidy in-box. SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Subscribes you to the list. UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Removes you from the list. [][][][][][][][][][] 2.1 FTP Basics FTP is a protocol by which files can be transferred over the internet. You can use FTP to connect to a remote site and retrieve files. The commands you use with FTP depend on the software you use. In general you must make sure that you are in BINARY mode before transferring a program file or compressed files. The process of downloading a file is usually termed GET and the process of uploading a file is usually termed PUT. Your FTP program will require an address to connect to. For the ClassicCmp site that address is 140.142.225.188. You then may be asked to log in (unless your program assumes an anonymous login). When asked for a name, use anonymous. When asked for a password enter your internet e-mail address. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 WWW Basics The only complicated thing with the WWW is knowing what bells and whistles your web browser supports. You don't really need to know much other than the address for ClassicCmp. The web site is all text which means just about any web browser from the oldest Lynx to the newest Netscape or Microsoft browser should support it. The ClassicCmp site is http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp. ============================================================================= ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 2 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy List Specific FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.6.3 Last Update: 12/10/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). This FAQ is Part 2 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented deals with regular day-to-day issues on the list. If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://haliotis.bothell washington.edu/classiccmp or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.188 in the directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as cclpart2.faq. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: Added: section 1.8 Changed: section 1.3, 1.5, 1.7, 3.1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. About the List ----------------- 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? 1.3 What's a Classic Computer? 1.4 Who runs this thing? 1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator? 1.6 Don't you know you're duplicating what others have done? 1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list? 1.8 How long has this list been around? 2. Protocol and Etiquette ------------------------- 2.1 What can I talk about? 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? 2.3 Can I talk about Mini/MainFrames? 2.4 Can I post advertisements? 2.5 Can I ask people to give me their computers? 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x? 2.7 Where should I look before posting a dumb question? 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS?!? 2.9 Can I post trophy lists? 2.10 Can I use obscene languagein my posts? 3. Misc List Information ------------------------ 3.1 How many subscribers are there? 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? 3.3 Is this list archived? 4. ClassicCmp Resources on the Net ---------------------------------- 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a Web Site? 4.2 How come the Web Site is so ugly? 4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP Site? Collecting ---------- 5.1 Where can I find Classic Computers? 5.2 How much is machine x worth? 5.3 Will thousands of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? 5.4 I don't understand anything. Help! ============================================================================= 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are often better handled in private e-mail ;) 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them. 1.3 What is a Classic Computer? _Any computer_ that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic. This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to work OK, so I've kept it. This definition has come under fire recently but remains the guideline. Remember that it is certainly flexible. The idea is to keep conversation on track, not to restrict what you can talk about. 1.4 Who runs this thing? That would be me, Bill Whitson - email bcw@u.washington.edu. 1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator? Sorry. It does often take me several days (sometimes weeks!) to respond to e-mail. I am often away for days at a time and when I'm not I'm still probably busy doing real work. I receive more than double the amount of mail that goes to the list in the form of spam, bounced messages, odd user requests, general bitching, etc. and I still have to filter out the messages I actually have to respond to, to remain employed ;). I will get back to you eventually. As an update, I've been _really_ hard to reach for the last couple months. Hopefully, this has now changed. Please keep in mind that this list is recreation for me, and I sometimes cannot devote any time to it. This does not indicate a lack of interest in the people or activities involved. 1.6 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done. I get a "reinventing the wheel" e-mail at least once a week. If you show me another group of computer collectors that claims a membership as large as this one I'll show you a group that must be very hard to find. Obviously there are other groups of collectors and I'm cheering them on - I don't see a problem with duplicating and reduplicating lore that's quickly disappearing anyway. 1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list? The daily load varies widely from about 20 messages to over 100. Average seems to be about (I haven't checked lately, will update) messages a day. There are times where the message load peaks for as much as a week. 1.8 How long has this list been around? The first message went out March 13, 1997. [][][][][][][][][] 2.1 What can I talk about? Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might want to check facts before you start shooting off messages. It's also a good idea to actually read the FAQs and check the archives a little before posting. 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then, be aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC newsgroups. 2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames/WorkStations/Gigantic Talking Boxes with Flashing Lights & Coundown Timers/Robots from Alien Civilizations? There has apparently been some misconception that this is a list for micros/home computers only. You'll note I said "misconception". 2.4 Can I post advertisements? Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course, use your brain - don't spam. Also, please state up-front whether or not you are willing to ship the items you sell outside your country as there are members of this list in a number of different countries. If your post is commercial, please be sure to indicate that in some way in the subject line. 2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers? Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example, would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on usenet who will vouch for this. When someone posts about one of their machines without offering to sell it - it's really a pretty good bet that they're not secretly trolling for offers. See section 5 for info on how to find yourself a computer. 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x. Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic electronics tools (VOM/DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). I'm no whiz with this stuff and the little knowledge I have has come from asking questions and then buying books to find out what "Simple... Just check the voltage on the caps in the PS to make sure one of them isn't flaking out!" exactly means. 2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question? It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below). 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! (Or, in general, be unreasonable with reagard to advocacy posts?) Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. For that matter, drop any posts that serve only to perpetuate the holy wars. 2.9 Can I post trophy lists? Some people like to read other peoples' trophy lists, some do not. There have been times when most people have been interested in these and times when many wanted to see them banned. So, they remain - appreciated or tolerated and somewhat controversial. Can't make everyone happy all the time ;) 2.10 Can I use obscene language in my posts? Yes. Although I'm sure many people would prefer you did not. A number of people have complained about this. I'm not going to outlaw swearing - now that I've informed you that it bothers people you can make your choice. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 How many subscribers are there? Around 210 and changing daily. 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? Check the web site (see below). The Classic Computer Encyclopedia shows the number of machines registered by subscribers. 3.3 Is this list archived? Yes. The archives are available on the FTP site (see below) in the directory /pub/classiccmp/archive. The file name format indicates the month/year of the archive. Keep in mind that they are quite large. [][][][][][][][][][] 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a web site? Yep. http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp 4.2 How come the web site is so ugly? How come a PET is so ugly? Who cares as long as it works? 4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP site? Yes. Anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.188. Look in /pub/classiccmp. There's not much there that's not available on the web site. I'm starting to load old drivers and system disks on occasion. There is an incoming directory which subscribers may use for ClassicCmp-related file transfers if needed. [][][][][][][][][][] 5.1 Where can I find classic computers? The best places seem to be thrift stores and swap meets. These are closely followed by pawn shops and mom and pop computer stores. The holy grails are electronics scrap yards - but they tend to be wary of individual pick-and-choosers. Oh yeah - garage sales! 5.2 How much is machine x worth? Precisely as much as you'll pay for it. Oh, you're selling it? Then, precisely as much as I'll pay for it. Seriously, no one prices these any more. I have an old Computer Blue Book that lists many classic computers but the prices are just ridiculous. Some machines (Apple Lisa's, old old Mini's, and unreleased prototypes) are starting down the road toward their original selling prices but it's unlikely that most will ever be worth more than the cost of their components. 5.3 Will 1000's of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? Yes. This is the impetus behind every collector's tireless and selfless effort. Each machine we fail to save has it's gold parts mercilessly hacked off and sold (just like rhino horns - and look at the rhinos). The remainder is then sent to China to be made into bicycle spokes (you probably think I'm joking). Save a computer! Act now! Remind your SO of the rhino and cuter, fuzzier animals. It might work. In all seriousness - there are a large (and growing) number of so called "computer and electronics 'recyclers'" who take usable computers and recycle them into "reusable scrap". Small amounts of gold, silver, and platinum are extracted and the remainder of the material is generally just marketed to less wasteful countries. 5.4 I don't understand anything. Help! Don't worry - you're not the only one. Reading this list, old magazines, books and whatever else you can get your hands on is the first step. Once you reach a critical mass of knowledge thigs get a lot easier. ============================================================================= ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 3 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy Technical FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.6.2 Last Update: 12/10/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). This FAQ is Part 3 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented deals with regularly asked questions which are technical in nature. If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://haliotis.bothell washington.edu/classiccmp or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.188 in the directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as cclpart3.faq. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: Nothing new, cosmetic changes. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. General ------------------ 1.1 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? 1.2 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? 2. Media -------- 2.1 What's a hard sector disk? What's a soft sector disk? 2.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. 2.3 Can these formats be interchanged? 2.4 What disk sizes are there? 2.5 How do I take care of old media? 3. Component Failure Issues --------------------------- 3.1 Do EPROM's go bad? 3.2 How about ROM's, other chips? 3.3 How about capacitors? 3.4 Anything else? 3.5 So how do I backup all this stuff like you suggest? 4. Software ----------- 4.1 Where can I get a system disk for platform X? 4.2 What's the best way to back up my software? 5. Specific Problems/Solutions ------------------------------ 5.1 Is it possible to bypass an RF modulator to achieve composite output? ============================================================================= 1.1 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? Don't power it up yet! All of the following should probably be done before that power switch gets flipped. Open the case - clean and visually inspect components. You're looking for traces of smoke, water, corrosion, loose screws, blown caps and resistors, cold (broken) solder joints, bent pins, etc. It may be a good idea to remove and re-seat all socketed components and connectors. If anything burned or overheated it will probably pay to replace it before powering up the unit. You can avoid a number of problems just by taking a peek inside. If you have the tools (and the machine is sufficiently rare) pull and dump backups of all EPROMs, ROMs, and PALs. If you have really cool tools (like a logic analyzer) it has been suggested that you use them to record critical information from those oh-so-hard-to-find custom chips. Specific information on how to do this is beyond the scope of a FAQ, but you probably know what you need to if you own the appropriate tools. Disconnect the power supply from the rest of the computer and start it up on a "dummy load". A six volt headlight bulb has been recommended as a convenient load. These should be available from any decent Volkswagen shop. Running the power supply without a load could result in damage to it. You may want to check the voltage output before you do this as it could be no where near the 5V average in micros. Even if you don't want to connect a load it's still probably a good idea to power it up separately from the computer for the first time. If you have a really rare beast it may be worth powering up some of the key capacitors out of circuit just to get them warmed up. Now you can power it up. Assuming it works, take a blank disk, format it, write some data to it, and read it back before using your precious software with it, as a bad disk drive could really ruin your day. 1.2 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? Cases: It seems best to start gently with such old equipment. Try soaking in a little water and dish soap and then scrubbing. This takes care of most jobs. For removing stickers try mineral oil or Goo-Gone (available at most hardware stores - in the US at least). If those don't work, acetone can be good but, if overused, can do more harm. For removing marker, almost any solvent is good (alcohol, naptha, etc) but will definitely discolor or dissolve plastic if not carefully applied. Lava soap is also good for removing marker but can smooth off textured plastic. For removing sun or tobacco discoloring a product called Purple Stuff available from auto parts stores (again, in the US at least) seems to do the job almost effortlessly. Recommended commercial products: Purple Stuff from Kragen [for discoloration] Brasso [ink/marker] (can discolor plastic) Antistatic Foam Cleaner from Electrolube [for discoloration/markings] Citra-Solv [for discoloration] (can dissolve plastic if undiluted) Cameo Copper Cleaner [ink/marker] Naptha [for stickers/goop/spooge] (very flammable) 3M GP Adhesive Remover [for stickers/goop/spooge] CRC 226 / CRC 556 [for stickers/goop/spooge] Fulcron [for discoloration] Blue Shower / BS II [for stickers/goop/spooge] Connectors: For edge connectors a plain pink eraser seems good for removing corrosion. Apparently other colors of eraser indicate a different texture - which may be damaging. Make sure to wipe the connectors with a clean cloth after erasing on them. There are a large number chemicals on the market that "magically" remove corrosion from components but as I don't know how safe they are, I'm not anxious to promote any of them. For pin style connectors a toothbrush and some softscrub or other mildly abrasive cleaner do wonders. Recommended commercial products: Electrolube contact cleaning sprays. Keyboards: I find a cycle through the dishwasher does a really nice job on keyboards. Just be sure they're completely dry before you put any power to them. If there is reason not to use a dishwasher (some key labels can come off) it is usually possible to remove each keycap and clean conventionally. [][][][][][][][][][] 2.1 What's a hard sectored disk? What's a soft sectored disk? We'll start with soft-sector since they're simpler to explain. On a soft-sector floppy disk the information that marks where a sector begins and ends is written to the disk by the computer (part of the formatting process). This means that various computers can use the same floppy disk types because the format of the disk is control- led by the operating system. Hard sector disks use a system of perforations in the media to mark the beginnings and ends of sectors. This means that computers which used hard sectored disks required the exact disk type they specified rather than a generic soft-sector floppy. A number of differently sectored disks were available - at least 10, 13, and 16 sector formats. 8 inch and 5.25 inch disks commonly used hard sectoring. 3.5 inch disks never came hard-sectored and, in fact, it would not be possible. 2.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. These all refer to the number of useable sides on a disk and it's density (how "efficiently" the magnetic bits are pushed together). SS/SD is a Single Sided - Single Density disk, the earliest available type I believe. The storage afforded by a single density disk was very small compared to today's standards. Single Sided disks were popular because they were cheaper than DS and could be easily modified with a hole punch into double sided disks. SD was followed by Double Density which, amazingly, doubled the amount of storage space. Double Density was followed by the extremely short-lived Quad Density which doubled a DD disk. QD was short lived because High Density was right on it's heels and nearly doubled disk capacity again. DS/HD was as sophisticated as 5.25" disks became. 3.5" disks have progressed as far as DS/EHD double-sided / extra-high density. 2.3 Can these formats be interchanged? Well, that may depend on what computer you are using, but in general the following substitutions may be made: Desired Format Substitute --------------------------------------------------- Single Density Double Density Double Density none reliably Quad Density DD, HD (sometimes work, not advisable!) High Density none Other substitutions may be made, but due to physical differences in how the disks are made they are generally unreliable. It can almost be guaranteed that data written to a proper density disk of poor quality will last longer than data written to a good quality disk of the wrong density. In the case of quad density no substitution should be considered reliable. DD and HD disks both can be forced to work. One may work better than the other given the peculiarities of various drives. 2.4 What disk sizes are there? Disk Types? Physically? Standard Disks Unique/Proprietary Disks --------------------------------------------------------- 8" (Floppy) 5" (MiniFloppy) 5.25" (MiniFloppy) 3.25" (MicroFloppy) 3.5" (MicroFloppy) 3" (MicroFloppy) 2.5" 2" In addition to odd sizes - there is at least one type of disk which was physically different. "Twiggy" disks for the Apple Lisa 1 were regular 5.25" disks with the exception that they had two read/write windows. One was oriented "north" of the center hole, the other "south". 2.5 How do I take care of old media? Step one is Back It Up! After that, make sure it's kept in a clean, dry, temperature-controlled environment (I keep mine in a broken freezer). With disks it seems important to keep them standing on end rather than lying flat - the same goes for cassette tapes. I like to exercise disks and tapes at least once every six months although I have no real evidence that this has any positive effect. I have modified an old C64 floppy drive to simply spin when a disk is inserted and send large stacks of disks through it on a regular basis just to make sure they're not starting to stick up internally. An exciting and somewhat recent development is that availability of classic computer emulators that can make disk images of old media on PC's and Macs. This seems to be a very good way to backup disks since they will eventually go bad no matter how well we take care of them. The official line seems to be that floppy disks have a shelf-life of approximately 10 years. With proper care many are lasting a lot longer. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 Do EPROM's go bad? Definitely. They apparently are considered to reliably contain data for (on the outside edge) 15 years. This amount can be considerably reduced if, for example, the sticker over the window has dried out and fallen off. Luckily EPROMs were not used too extensively but they're out there. An EPROM writer/reader is a relatively cheap investment and an easy fix. Even if an EPROM has "forgotten" it's data it is still fine for being "re-educated". 3.2 How about ROMs and other chips? Things wear out. It's likely that even components which have not been fried by catastrophic failure will simply start to die someday. ROMs can be dumped to a file and re-written if they die. Other custom chips which are all too common in micros will be far more difficult to replace. The best advice is to stockpile these chips when you can - but someday even unused chips will probably start to turn up bad. In this case the best defense is to stockpile information in the hope of being able to modify an existing component to meet your needs. 3.3 How about capacitors? This seems to be another large concern, but rather than being an unreplaceable component a capacitor will take your unreplaceable components with it when it goes. It's a good idea to check out all the caps in a system if you haven't fired it up in a while. Caps go bad with time (even tantalum caps, apparently - although they are more reliable) and should be replaced if they are suspect. It's unlikely that it will be impossible to find a replacement capacitor as they are much more standard electronic components. 3.4 Anything else? Documentation: If there's anything which is entirely unreplaceable its the docs for uncommon equipment. Once they're gone, they're gone. I regularly pick up docs I find for equipment I don't have just because I may someday. Paper will, of course. go bad over time but it will be obvious and they will be easily duplicated. Hard Disks: ST-251s, ST-502s, MFM, RLL... old hard disks are going to go bad. Then they'll be gone. Theoretically, I suppose it's possible to crack a hard drive and replace a dead bearing, realign, relaminate, etc... but I've never heard of anyone doing these things in their base- ment. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years many of us will be experts at this. 3.5 So, how do I back up all this stuff like you suggest? This answer will undoubtedly get longer as I learn more. The best ways seem to be to dump the particular ROM (or whatever) using the approp- riate equipment to a floppy disk (which most of this equipment allows). From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Oct 26 15:25:26 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: AY 3500 In-Reply-To: from "Van Burnham" at Oct 26, 98 12:45:16 pm Message-ID: <199810262125.OAA14232@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1178 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981026/2da9fb7e/attachment.ksh From rax at warbaby.com Mon Oct 26 16:44:36 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: Message-ID: K.J.Whitehead grumbled: >Well this list used to be good, now it has degenerated into 80%+ noise. > >I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information >about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software >wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. > >What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers >What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers >What does a modern college education have to do with old computers > >I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found >that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot >checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. > >Go back and re-read what this list was supposed to be about. > >99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites. > And your point is...? -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. From Marty at itgonline.com Mon Oct 26 15:31:52 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: ebay Message-ID: <1998Oct26.161503.1767.152384@smtp.itgonline.com> _____________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: ebay Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/26/98 3:54 PM On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > > 1. Bid more than anybody else through proxy bidding. This way when > > somebody else bids, the system will bid you up (to your max) automatically > > when someone else bids. If you want it bad enough, you can get it, but > > it may cost you. > > Jep, but to be shure, it has to be high, real high :( As high as $12,000? Only to have someone bid $12,100? > > 2. Learn the fine art of sniping. I live with a longtime e-bay user (my wife) > > who has the distinction of a 0 second snipe - it came in and was recognised > > some fraction of a second before the auction closed. She did it manually > > too. :) There IS sniping software, apparently, too. > > Just a NO. Maybe I'm stupid and old fashionated, > but sniping is just not possible. I stopped using eBay simply for this reason. The format makes it impossible to carry on a fair bid process and weed out the weenies. > > 3. My wife assures me that EVERYTHING comes around again, btw. Especially > > computers. She suggests patience. > > Jep, but this lot was real neat. > (And the next will be the one with the SC/MPs .. sigh). > I don't know if this will be around again, so nicly bundled >>If you look hard enough, you can ALWAYS find something around you, >>cheaper, and it won't cost you shipping. This is of course more true >>for some people than others (like a poor slob in Alaska trying to >>collect computers) but I've learned this lesson many times. Everything >>I've ever bought off eBay has turned up locally for a fraction of the >>price. Sometimes only a week later. Aren't you located in 'Silicon Valley?' You are located in an unusally fertile area for the old computer devotee. I live in the Washington, D.C. metro area which isn't bad but must pale in comparison to your locale. *sniff* **sob** Marty An alternate to eBay is needed. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct26.155454.1767.72657; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:54:55 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id MAA14085; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:52:33 -0800 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA19614 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:51:41 -0800 Received: from mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (mailhub2.ncal.verio.com [204.247.247.54]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id MAA32 588 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:51:40 -0800 Received: from shell1.ncal.verio.com (dastar@shell1.ncal.verio.com [204.247.248.254]) by mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06918 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:51:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:51:39 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Sam Ismail To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: ebay In-Reply-To: <199810261856.TAA25057@marina.fth.sbs.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 26 13:54:13 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) In-Reply-To: <199810261206.NAA13262@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Oct 26, 98 01:27:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 684 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981026/340d9bd9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 26 13:57:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 26, 98 09:38:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 631 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981026/fedfea2e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 26 13:44:23 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <3633EAB7.A4E5BC21@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Oct 25, 98 10:21:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1236 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981026/d62662b0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 26 14:41:41 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <199810260203.AA03008@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 25, 98 09:03:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 479 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981026/fd26b425/attachment.ksh From ai705 at osfn.org Mon Oct 26 15:54:26 1998 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sam, I'll apologize ahead of time for the bluntness but not for the opinion as I feel it has to be said. On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: >> I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information >> about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software >> wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. > With that I think its time to post the FAQ again... > P.S. I have decided to take on the responsibility for maintaining the FAQ. And what is the point of this "Comrade" Sam? We can post generally useless trophy lists (thankfully rare lately) and brag but we should not discuss the ins and outs of acquiring computers via Ebay? It isn't like we are discussing beanie babies here or the other 97% of Ebay auctions. > If you look hard enough, you can ALWAYS find something around you, > cheaper, and it won't cost you shipping. This is of course more true for > some people than others (like a poor slob in Alaska trying to collect > computers) but I've learned this lesson many times. Everything I've ever > bought off eBay has turned up locally for a fraction of the price. > Sometimes only a week later. > Well at least you can admit that there are varying degrees of difficulty depending on location. I don't think you guys on the West Coast have an appreciation of how helpful that spot is. There was a recent discussion on the list of being dropped on a desert island and establishing civilization. I say we parachute Sam in his underpants with a knife and a compass into some podunk in the Midwest, and see how fast he comes up with a Vintage Computer Festival, even the size of the first, from scratch. I say that Ebay with some limiting parameters is on topic. I'd hate to think that some people with arbitrary advantages could cut off debate on any subject their advantage makes moot. I also don't remember the FAQ specifying the discussion of nothing but solder and lead fumes and nothing more advanced than a transistor. This is a more general purpose list than that. The topic will die down nicely of its own accord when everybody has had their say. Those truly offended can simply unsubscribe for a couple of weeks and then resubscribe. I make the suggestion because I have done it myself. -- Stephen Dauphin From bill at chipware.com Mon Oct 26 16:11:39 1998 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay) In-Reply-To: <1998Oct26.161503.1767.152384@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <000001be012d$9ad06fa0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> >>If you look hard enough, you can ALWAYS find something around you, >>cheaper, and it won't cost you shipping. This is of course more true >>for some people than others (like a poor slob in Alaska trying to >>collect computers) but I've learned this lesson many times. Everything >>I've ever bought off eBay has turned up locally for a fraction of the >>price. Sometimes only a week later. >Aren't you located in 'Silicon Valley?' You are located in an unusually >fertile area for the old computer devotee. I live in the Washington, >D.C. metro area which isn't bad but must pale in comparison to your >locale. *sniff* **sob** Marty Well, recently there have been a couple of things in the area... That lady in Virginia with the school with the Apple stuff (has anyone heard anything else on this?). The heads up for the stuff at the Village Thrift Store in Laurel (I was about to get in my car when I saw Rob Dekers reply that he already had it). Tim Shoppa seems to do pretty well based out of Bethesda (I have been tempted to get up early some Saturday morning and see if I couldn't shadow him around and discover his "sources" ;) ). Maybe we DC area folks could try a little harder to coordinate our efforts to try to root out some stuff. I worked for the Social Security Admin. in the late 70's and early 80's and I'm pretty sure that we had about 6 original Lisas. If the place is still anything like it was when I worked there, the machines are still there, sitting, covered in dust, in a closet. I'm not sure what the process for getting old stuff out of the government is, that's probably why, while the government is a major computer user, there doesn't seem to be a lot available. Bill From gram at cnct.com Mon Oct 26 16:25:03 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: BOFH References: <199810230234.AA00234@world.std.com> <19981023031547.7729.qmail@brouhaha.com> <36347E9A.DE713FD@idirect.com> <36349681.6C13DD48@cnct.com> <3634A215.74F4A757@rain.org> Message-ID: <3634F6BF.D7D628DE@cnct.com> Marvin wrote: > > For sysadmins and everyone with a perverted sense of humor, you might enjoy > this site. A friend of mine turned me onto it a year or so ago, and almost > always puts a smile on my face! The URL is > http://www.networkweek.com/bofh.shtml. For the _original_ Bastard Operator from Hell material, it's also important to check out Simon Travaglia's stuff at his New Zealand homepage, . I know he writes some of the material Network Week (UK) publishes, and all of it is based on his concepts of course. Now if only the NW page would be updated oftener than since last Christmas... (their response via email several months ago was "real soon"). Network Week offers an official BOFH t-shirt, but it's only available by mail order and only in the UK. Good thing my wife has a friend who goes back home for a few weeks every few months, it's a nice shirt. Only two sizes, Big Bastard and Really Big Bastard, corresponding to the US large and extra. A word of warning -- don't email Simon with questions (or for that matter ask them on comp.unix.aix) unless you've got a thick skin. Or it's a really tricky question that God himself couldn't find in the manuals or a month of web searches. He's a great guy and I'd love to get drunk with him sometime, but he's the first to admit that he _is_ a real bastard. (We occasionally correspond due to both spending lots of time babysitting RS/6000 AIX systems and of course their users). (Now if you want something _twisted_, check out the Satanic Sysadmins at . Don't forget to fill out the System Administrator Purity Test.) -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 26 16:28:37 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay) Message-ID: <981026172837.2220034b@trailing-edge.com> >Tim Shoppa seems to do pretty well based out of Bethesda (I have been >tempted >to get up early some Saturday morning and see if I couldn't shadow him >around >and discover his "sources" ;) ). I may be based in Bethesda, but haven't acquired an awful lot from the immediate area - most all the equipment that I use to make my living was acquired on the Left Coast. Of course, I've also been trying to cast off what I don't need, too! Do any of us truly have the problem of "not enough stuff"??? :-). One decent source in the area is the Terrapin Trader, the University of Maryland's surplus outlet in College Park. For more info, see http://www.inform.umd.edu/PURCHASE/terptrad/ They usually have a good assortment of workstations and PC's in the showroom, and they often have some interesting scientific and test equipment as well. (Thanks to Dan Burrows for taking me to this place the first time!) There are some pretty decent "full-line" electronics shops in Beltsville, just a little bit further out than College Park. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 26 16:24:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: from "Keith Whitehead" at Oct 27, 98 09:14:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1605 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981026/c8127d81/attachment.ksh From g at kurico.com Mon Oct 26 17:01:13 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Sony SMC-70 Message-ID: Recently acquired a Sony SMC-70 (Z-80 based CP/M). At least I think that what it is (was on the bike so I couldn't bring it home today). It is just the unit itself, no docs and _no_ cables. So in general any info about this system would be great. Specifically, I need pinouts for the video (has both db25 B/W and color connectors). Or better yet the actual cable(s) themselves. TIA George P.S. I still have a decwriter III that anyone can have if you come pick it up. From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 26 17:02:44 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: ePay Message-ID: <19981026230245.16942.qmail@hotmail.com> No, the most off-topic thread is 'why dogs lick their balls/Linux', which culminated in the venerable 'irreverence to irrelevance' flamewar to a couple of weeks later. >Some cheese is good hard, but not those that are supposed to be soft. > >Could this be leading to the most off-topic thread this list has ever >seen? > >> eBay is different - a real auctioneer always gives the same >> amount of additional time after teh last Bid - ePay just cuts. > >Not always, especially if there are a great deal of lots. I think Ebay is >half way between an open and sealed auction. > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bill at chipware.com Mon Oct 26 17:05:34 1998 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay) In-Reply-To: <981026172837.2220034b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <000101be0135$23398820$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Tim Shoppa said: > Of course, I've also been trying to cast off > what I don't need, too! Do any of us truly have the problem of > "not enough stuff"??? :-). It's not a matter of "enough stuff", it a matter of "THE RIGHT STUFF". For instance, right now I'm trying to assemble an Ohio Scientific "type set" (one of everything they made, phrase taken from coin collecting). And I'm still looking for a working set of OS-65u. Bill From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 26 17:33:55 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Message-ID: <19981026233356.3614.qmail@hotmail.com> I just want to say that the sort of people that assemble on this list make almost every discussion interesting _for me_, even if off-topic. Like the discussion we had way back about telephones. Sure, it's not on topic, but I think this list is more of a meeting place for old computer collectors than a natural-language-queryable encyclopedia. >> What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers > >Not a helluvabunch. I have to agree with you there... > >> What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers > >Lots. Many of the rare (and not so rare) machines are being valued out of >our hands. > >> What does a modern college education have to do with old computers > >OK, again, not much. > >> I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found >> that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot >> checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. > >That sounds about right. Horrible s/n on this list, but at least no porn. > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Oct 26 05:57:34 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: ePay In-Reply-To: <199810261711.SAA23668@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <000101be00d7$d149dcc0$0db0adce@5x86jk> You get my vote on this issue, I have lost more times than I like because this. > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Hans Franke > Sent: Monday, October 26, 1998 11:32 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: ePay > > > Sigh. > I hate it. > Sniped just seconds before the end. > They should realy change their policy about > ending time - these (automatic) snipers are > realy not the way it should be. > > Waaaaaaaaah. > > Gruss > H. > > sorry to use the list, but I had to cry ... > I was happy until 5 minutes ago ... > > -- > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK > From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Oct 26 17:51:21 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: BOFH Message-ID: <199810270025.TAA04608@gate.usaor.net> O.K. After 5:00, it started working. must have just been a loaded server or something. -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Marvin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: BOFH > Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 11:23 AM > > For sysadmins and everyone with a perverted sense of humor, you might enjoy > this site. A friend of mine turned me onto it a year or so ago, and almost > always puts a smile on my face! The URL is > http://www.networkweek.com/bofh.shtml. From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Oct 26 18:32:32 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Message-ID: <199810270034.TAA06506@gate.usaor.net> Or the one about the drinking Hydrochloric acid and throwing up. Although -- that may have been a bit *too* far off-topic.... -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Max Eskin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening > Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 6:33 PM > > > I just want to say that the sort of people that assemble on this list > make almost every discussion interesting _for me_, even if off-topic. > Like the discussion we had way back about telephones. Sure, it's not > on topic, but I think this list is more of a meeting place for old > computer collectors than a natural-language-queryable encyclopedia. From tomowad at earthlink.net Mon Oct 26 18:45:18 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: ePay Message-ID: <199810270045.QAA09644@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >Anyway, this isn't hard. Its just a matter of moving all the action off >of eBay to somewhere more worthy. If everyone here (I know a lot of >you are still foolish enough to play eBay) would agree to an alternate >location that is perhaps built BY us, then we could lure away all the >other people who aren't on this list eventually and create the premier >vintage computer auction house on the web. Eventually, when this stuff >REALLY becomes valuable, we'll have a virtual stranglehold on the vintage >computer auction market. Wow. Perhaps its time to incorporate ClassicCmp. ;-) Kai just mentioned the owner of Haggle is a member of ClassicCmp (who?). And his creation of an "Antique Computer" section obviously shows he's interested. I'd also be willing to wager there isn't a larger, better organized group of computer collectors than on ClassicCmp. With some active endorsement from ClassicCmp members, and increased support for classic computers by Haggle, I think we'd be off to an excellent start. Tom -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Mon Oct 26 18:46:25 1998 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <01be0143$39bbd400$f17d38cb@help-desk> -----Original Message----- From: Daniel T. Burrows To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 27 October 1998 1:35 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >For your ref. the delqa is a M7516 and add -YM for the "turbo" version. I >just checked the DDA for any listed in Australia and none are listed. If >you want I will go through the subscriber list and find some for you. DDA? Ok, thanks. Appreciated. >>While I'm at it, AUI-10Base2(or t) transceivers are also getting rare, >>(around here anyway) since I have a Vax 6220 in need as well, any good >>sources? >>S/H preferred. I'd like 2 or 3 if possible. > > >I know it doesn't help much for shipping concerns but Datacom Warehouse >carries them for about $25 either 10base2 or 10baset. www.warehouse.com Not much. That equates to about A$50 plus shipping across the Pacific. But if all else fails. I am led to believe I can get a new one for about A$75 or so, but I need to confirm this. That's more than I wanted to pay, but I may not have a choice. >>BTW, Huw, did you ever come across a source for a Vax 8530-Console cable? >>(With that subject line, I just know you'll read this!) > >Which console cable are you looking for? I may have one. The multiplex cable with 2 d connectors at each end that go from the DEC Pro380 Vaxconsole to the backplane of the VAX 85xx series of computers. (Nautilus I think is the processor family) Thanks Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au (my other life) From dburrows at netpath.net Mon Oct 26 18:29:48 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay) Message-ID: <010101be0142$916e8040$a60b0b0b@p166> So I corrupted you? I have just learned to keep my eyes open for all University surplus stores. You just are lucky enough to have them sell over the counter. Down here everything has to go through the state sealed bid process. (except what you are willing to dumpster dive for) Not that I would ever do such a thing.:) ( I have made several thousand from such dives over the years) Also Tim be sure to check their dumpsters routinely. They are very bad about dumping good stuff. Dan > http://www.inform.umd.edu/PURCHASE/terptrad/ > >They usually have a good assortment of workstations and PC's >in the showroom, and they often have some interesting >scientific and test equipment as well. (Thanks to Dan Burrows >for taking me to this place the first time!) > From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Oct 26 18:43:22 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: ePay In-Reply-To: <199810261711.SAA23668@marina.fth.sbs.de> References: <199810261711.SAA23668@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <363c1611.676447429@insight> I hate that too! If somebody did that to me in "real life" I'd probably have to kick them in the nuts just for being a jerk. I've suggested to eBay more than once that they should (possibly at the seller's option when the auction begins) allow an automatic extension of the bidding period for perhaps 6 to 8 hours every time a new bid is received, _but_ increase the "minimum bid increment" by a fairly large factor each time. This would allow people who really wanted an item to "go for broke" if they decided they couldn't live without it, it would shut down "sniping", and it would make the seller (and hence eBay) more money! Seems like a win-win-win situation to me, but they've never so much as replied to my mail. "Snipers" should get their pants stuffed with rabid weasels! On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 18:32:01 +1, you wrote: >Sigh. >I hate it. >Sniped just seconds before the end. >They should realy change their policy about >ending time - these (automatic) snipers are >realy not the way it should be. > >Waaaaaaaaah. -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.) From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Oct 26 18:47:11 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Message-ID: no, i think the one about firearms outdid the throwing up thread... In a message dated 10/26/98 7:35:55 PM US Eastern Standard Time, roblwill@usaor.net writes: > Or the one about the drinking Hydrochloric acid and throwing up. Although > -- that may have been a bit *too* far off-topic.... > -- From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Oct 26 18:50:18 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: ePay In-Reply-To: <9810269094.AA909425727@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> References: <9810269094.AA909425727@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> Message-ID: <363d179e.676844991@insight> Yeah, but it's *such* a pisser when the sniping twit gets it for your maximum plus 50 cents!! Like you'd say "Golly - I *really* want that Altair that's autographed by the original designers, and I'll pay $5,550 for it, but not $5,550.50!" I know I'm *way* too good at convincing myself that my original bid was too low... And then there's always the "Oh yeah??? Well screw _you_ buddy - take THI$$$$$!" mindset that has led me to establish new records for ridiculous prices on eBay... (But I _did_ get the item, dammit!! ;-) On Mon, 26 Oct 98 13:23:26 -0500, david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov wrote: >On the whole, I find it liberating to just bid my maximum and let the >chips fall where they may. > > Dav Vandenbroucke > Economist > U.S. Dept. HUD > david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov > -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.) From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 26 18:55:49 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay) Message-ID: <981026195549.222003a0@trailing-edge.com> >process. (except what you are willing to dumpster dive for) Not that I >would ever do such a thing.:) ( I have made several thousand from such dives >over the years) So have I - several of the RSX-11 DECUS tapes that are now available from ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11 were rescued from TRIUMF when they dumped all the 9-tracks they had in the Chem Annex. Hint for those who haven't done much dumpster diving: back your car or truck up to the dumpster, climb into the dumpster via your rear bumper, and start tossing :-). Tim. From rax at warbaby.com Mon Oct 26 20:21:36 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Computer History Message-ID: Hi Kiddos - I just finished writing the first draft of the Computer History chapter of the book I'm working on. I've put it up on my site at http://www.warbaby.com/FG_test/comp_history.html - If any of you have the time and are so inclined (it's about 12,000 words), I'd be grateful if you'd take a look at it and let me know if you spot any errors or obvious omissions. It's written for people who know little or nothing about computers, so don't be too harsh with its lack of technical stuff. OTOH, let me know if you think it's readable by the technologically challenged. I'll have the Internet History up by tomorrow, if you're a glutton for punishment. TIA, R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Oct 26 19:04:30 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <363e1a56.677540671@insight> Boo hoo. Personally, I *enjoy* some "chatter" in the group, as long as it's from people who are into classic computers and the like. As often as not, I will read a message and think "Y'know - that's exactly what happened to me/how I feel about that/where I'm at in life," and it feels good. I hang out in the rec.crafts.metalworking newsgroup a lot, and you'll never find a group lower in spam or more willing to help anyone who wanders in, whether it's a question about how to best move a 3,000 lb lathe or the best snow tires for a Volkswagen. It's like the old guys who sat by the wood stove playing checkers in old-time hardware stores, except there are about 500 of them. I've seen this group giving each other some (occasionally much needed) "attaboys!" and general moral support, and it's kind of neat. If I want cold, hard facts, I generally look elsewhere, but if I want to read some personal anecdotes about classic computers and the lives of those who collect them, I come here. Relax, have a cup of coffee, and slow down a little. People with tunnel who demand instant gratification are most of what's wrong with the world today! On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:14:32 +1200, k.j.whitehead@massey.ac.nz wrote: >Well this list used to be good, now it has degenerated into 80%+ noise. > >I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information >about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software >wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. > >What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers >What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers >What does a modern college education have to do with old computers > >I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found >that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot >checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. > >Go back and re-read what this list was supposed to be about. > >99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites. -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.) From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Oct 26 19:06:55 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: <19981026233356.3614.qmail@hotmail.com> References: <19981026233356.3614.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <363f1c83.678097602@insight> On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:33:55 PST, "Max Eskin" wrote: > >I just want to say that the sort of people that assemble on this list >make almost every discussion interesting _for me_, even if off-topic. >Like the discussion we had way back about telephones. Sure, it's not >on topic, but I think this list is more of a meeting place for old >computer collectors than a natural-language-queryable encyclopedia. Amen, Max! -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.) From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Oct 26 19:00:15 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Message-ID: <199810270116.UAA16427@gate.usaor.net> Oh yeah - I forgot about that one. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening > Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 7:47 PM > > no, i think the one about firearms outdid the throwing up thread... > > In a message dated 10/26/98 7:35:55 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > roblwill@usaor.net writes: > > > Or the one about the drinking Hydrochloric acid and throwing up. Although > > -- that may have been a bit *too* far off-topic.... > > -- From karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au Tue Oct 27 06:14:01 1998 From: karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au (Karl Maftoum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: <19981026233356.3614.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > > I just want to say that the sort of people that assemble on this list > make almost every discussion interesting _for me_, even if off-topic. > Like the discussion we had way back about telephones. Sure, it's not > on topic, but I think this list is more of a meeting place for old > computer collectors than a natural-language-queryable encyclopedia. I'll second that! I really enjoy some of the discussions that go on here :) I probably miss out on quite a few cos of lack of time to read all the messages :( But I have learned _alot_ from just reading what is said... Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Karl Maftoum Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia Email: k.maftoum@student.canberra.edu.au From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Oct 26 19:23:32 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Message-ID: <199810270125.UAA18333@gate.usaor.net> I agree. I think sometimes, it's good to get a bit off-topic. Even WAY off topic (sometimes) isn't bad. Just as long as it's not spam, like on the OCH. A break from the ordinary is good. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Bill Richman > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening > Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 8:04 PM > > Boo hoo. Personally, I *enjoy* some "chatter" in the group, as long as > it's from people who are into classic computers and the like. As often > as not, I will read a message and think "Y'know - that's exactly what > happened to me/how I feel about that/where I'm at in life," and it feels > good. I hang out in the rec.crafts.metalworking newsgroup a lot, and > you'll never find a group lower in spam or more willing to help anyone > who wanders in, whether it's a question about how to best move a 3,000 > lb lathe or the best snow tires for a Volkswagen. It's like the old > guys who sat by the wood stove playing checkers in old-time hardware > stores, except there are about 500 of them. I've seen this group giving > each other some (occasionally much needed) "attaboys!" and general moral > support, and it's kind of neat. If I want cold, hard facts, I generally > look elsewhere, but if I want to read some personal anecdotes about > classic computers and the lives of those who collect them, I come here. > Relax, have a cup of coffee, and slow down a little. People with tunnel > who demand instant gratification are most of what's wrong with the world > today! > From maxeskin at www.hotmail.com Mon Oct 26 19:32:14 1998 From: maxeskin at www.hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Commodore 128D Message-ID: <19981027013214.1166.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, it's been about two months, and I still haven't started on the C128D that Hans gave me (sorry, Hans!). Could someone please post the PSU pinouts for it (this is the one with an internal PSU)? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jruschme at exit109.com Mon Oct 26 19:59:38 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Riddles & old stuff for sale In-Reply-To: <199810242122.OAA16197@mxu2.u.washington.edu> from Gene Ehrich at "Oct 24, 98 05:24:04 pm" Message-ID: <199810270159.UAA26526@crobin.home.org> > Take a look at my web site when you get a chance. > > Lots of older things for sale plus some VERY INTERESTING riddles. > > http://www.voicenet.com/~generic > gene@ehrich Gene, Hi! Glad to see your up and about... I was looking at your page and wondering about the Compaq 386 portable... Do you still have it? If so, how much memory does it have and how much would you be looking for for it (your page just says best offer)? Thanks... <> From rcini at email.msn.com Mon Oct 26 20:04:53 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Beginning to post "Altair Scans" and PDP-11 docs Message-ID: <000401be014e$a0743600$12f42399@mainoffice> Hello, all: I began posting my "Altair Scans" to: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/altair_scans.htm You can see from the overall list that there is a lot of info there. Also, I posted some PDP-11 stuff to: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ If anyone has any information to add to the list, let me know. I still have to take an inventory of my docs, but it's about several Xerox boxes worth. Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin!/CW7 - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Collector of "classic" computers <========= reply separator ==========> From dcoward at pressstart.com Mon Oct 26 20:35:14 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) Message-ID: <19981026181552.209d9cf8.in@mail.pressstart.com> Chuck McManis said speaking of EBAY: >It sounds like this is a "bad" thing. Is it? If so why? ----- START RANT ----------------- Yes, it a Baaad thing. I was very happy when my computers were "worthless" (to everyone else), thank you very much for asking. 1) Computers are appearing everywhere. I don't have to look so hard any more. As a result I don't yell "Yipee" as loud any more, especially when I realize what it's going to cost me. 2) A good portion of the discussions on this list are about what some machine is worth. A hobby that allows a person to gain complex knowledge of so many aspects of their machines and it history has been reducted to the level of baseball trading cards and "beanies". I would rather hear about how someone just got a machine running for the first time in 15 years. 3) I see a "Low Tech" craze coming. People will be mounting S-100 boards to hang on the wall. Just like the people that buy old magazines, cut them up to frame the old advertisements. By piecing out a computer they make alot of money, and someone has a piece of Americana to decorate their den, but it's taking technology out of context. This will come when the prices "crash". Imagine you need a S-100 disk controller. You find one,it costs a fortune and you need to chip it out of a block of Lucite, because someone made it into a paper weight. 4) I don't care for the way it makes people react. The following is from the CP/M list last weekend: >About a week or so I let loose that I had a few IMSAI chassis available. >This resulted in a deluge of mailings. I was rather amazed at this - that >anyone would want them at all. >I offered them for free (postage) and still am doing so. A couple of takers >have been identified. >What I cannot abide is a few that got real abusive. I was offering something >for nothing, yet a few insisted on demanding they get the equipment. I >received some nasty insinuations and threats. This I will not tolerate and >each party has been told so personally. >I wish to reiterate here that I am appalled at the behavior of these few. It >was fortunate that the majority had better manners. I nearly tossed the >whole batch in the garbage. >Excuse the venting - Sorry about the whole mess >Rich Raspenti 5) "Beanies" are made to be collectible. They don't have a story to tell. They don't have a functionality that is greater than the sum of their parts. You don't play with them. You just display them. And that is the biggest problem. When a treasured possession becames too valuable to use for fear of damaging it, that defeats MY purpose for collecting computers. - the not so oldtimer ----- END RANT ------------------------- > It would seem that >eBay is making a market for older computers that before didn't exist. Now >is it that the 'old timers' who were used to picking up C64's at a garage >sale for $1 will now have to pay $25 are grumbling? Doesn't this >potentially increase the value of your own collection many fold? Isn't that >a good thing? > Traditionally there is a rush of "collectible fever" (if >you've ever dealt with collectibles, and my Dad has for many more years >than I) where lots of people rush in an buy anything that may be >collectible hoping to get in at the bottom of the next "beanie" craze, then >there is a rush of junk dealers who prey on those bozos and come in and >sell them a bunch of "L@@K! R@RE!" Commodore 64's or 486SL machines for >over market prices, and then there is a general "crash" of the market as >the bozo's leave and prices go back to more rational levels (but usually >higher than they were before the "collectible" craze hit) and then, if they >are truely collectable (and there are many properties of things that make >them so) then the price begins to reflect actual rarity, condition, and >that imponderable "desirability." ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Mon Oct 26 21:03:32 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) Message-ID: <199810270303.WAA19241@alanine.cs.unc.edu> On Sun, 25 Oct 1998, Chuck McManis wrote: ] I'll admit that I am confused about the subtext in Jim's message where he ] writes: ] ] At 10:02 PM 10/25/98 -0800, you wrote: ] >Starting Saturday (perhaps earlier, but the first that I noticed) eBay has ] >been running radio spots on the national syndicate program feeds. ] > ... ] ] It sounds like this is a "bad" thing. Is it? If so why? It would seem that ] eBay is making a market for older computers that before didn't exist. Now ] is it that the 'old timers' who were used to picking up C64's at a garage ] sale for $1 will now have to pay $25 are grumbling? Doesn't this ] potentially increase the value of your own collection many fold? Isn't that ] a good thing? ] ... This is a good thing if you are collecting computers just so that you can sell them later at a profit. For those of us collecting to keep, it means higher expenses and/or fewer acquisitions. Of course, the unhappiness in my acquisitions department is eased by the knowledge that a few machines may be saved from the scrap heap by their sudden increase in value to the guy on the street. So the machines may be more expensive, but in the end there may be more of them available. Win some, lose some. ] --Chuck ] (Who is waiting for his Korg M1 synthesizer to become 'collectible' because ] he gave away an Arp Odessey when he was still clueless...) Bill. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Oct 26 21:13:55 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: floppy drive storage Message-ID: I have about 27 apple floppy drives as well as other floppy based machines and am wondering about their long term storage. is it better to close the drive's latch or leave it unlatched? i would think that having the drive latched/door closed would keep the drive from possibly getting misaligned if it got moved or bumped around but on the other hand, having the drive closed for long periods of time could possibly deform the head load pad. comments? david From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Oct 26 17:09:47 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: <19981026233356.3614.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199810270314.WAA15909@smtp.interlog.com> On 26 Oct 98 at 15:33, Max Eskin wrote: > > I just want to say that the sort of people that assemble on this list > make almost every discussion interesting _for me_, even if off-topic. > Like the discussion we had way back about telephones. Sure, it's not > on topic, but I think this list is more of a meeting place for old > computer collectors than a natural-language-queryable encyclopedia. > >> What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers > > > >Not a helluvabunch. I have to agree with you there... > > > >> What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers > > > >Lots. Many of the rare (and not so rare) machines are being valued out > of > >our hands. > > > >> What does a modern college education have to do with old computers > > > >OK, again, not much. > > > >> I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have >>> found > >> that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot > >> checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. > > > >That sounds about right. Horrible s/n on this list, but at least no >> porn. > > The noise level has increased considerably. Which can be a problem for those with limited mail-box resources. IMHO a lot of this OT stuff could more properly be discussed on alt.computers.folklore or other newsgroups without filling your mailbox with stuff one is not interested in. I'm sure you could find a way to get on usenet using your Lynx shell, Max . ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Oct 26 17:09:50 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:42 2005 Subject: New Thread... TRS-80 Model IIs!!!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981023103350.0092ba90@texas.net> References: <363049F3.EA8E827D@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199810270314.WAA15929@smtp.interlog.com> On 23 Oct 98 at 10:33, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > >> Note: on the Model II (TRS-80) there was an option to use page the memory > >> so you could get more than 64K in the thing.... If I remember, it used a > >> Z-80 I/O address as the pager. > > > >To the best of my recollection, the only serious memory paging that > First: > I have a bunch of Model II software! Problem is I am not sure how much is > any good.... Anyone know how to read the data off of the disc and > preserve the programs???? Anyone have any clue as to how to make a 3.5" > floppy replace an 8"??? > > I have the TECHNICAL MANUALs for the Model II. As soon as I can dig them > out, I want to scan them and put them on the net in PDF format.... Anyone > interested??? > > Ooo yes , please !! I almost missed this with all the s/n ratio going on. There's almost no documentation available out there on the model II much less programs. By the sounds of it you don't have one. Yes it is possible to transfer it to 5 1/4 according to others I have been in contact with. TMK Tim Mann is working on an emulator. One of the things on my plate is to transfer my programs to a newer media, to conserve them. I'll let you know how this progresses. There was also a thread on this very thing recently on comp.sys.tandy. Kees Stravers has a nice web page at http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/modelii.html > Now on to my replies: > > >Tandy ever did with the Model II series was the 16k (each) in the > >Arcnet and hard disk boards and the 32k in the graphics board. Some > >other vendors went further with it, but as a Tandy customer support > >rep, I never saw them in person. The Model 4 was a different story. > > No seriously, the Model II can page (I think it was the upper) 32K of > memory IF you had extra memory cards. This feature is built in. > > > > >> Damnit! I want a 64bit Model II !!!!!!!! (Running and 500Gcyc of-course). > >> With 8" Laser-Optical drives... and OH OH!!! I want a Thomas-Conrad > >> 100Mbps Fiber ARCnet to connect it to my Linux machines!!!! > > > >Won't do you any good unless you also build (and program) the > >custom Arcnet cards, since Model II Arcnet spoke only to Model II > >Arcnet, even though the hardware and connection layers were > >compatible with Datapoint and (later on) PC Arcnet systems. > >I installed and supported Model II Arcnet, later on I installed > >Vianet based on Arcnet hardware for PCs. The wires and hubs and > >signals were the same, but the machines talked different languages. > > I wanna build my own ARCnet cards which is why I asked "does anyone have > the spec.s (electrical and data format) for ARCnet?" > > I have called Datapoint and they are useless. I have contacted the ARCnet > Trade Association and they want lotsa $$$$ for copies of the RFC. Why > would I spend $100.00 for an RFC when I am just a hobbyist? > "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build > bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce > bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook > > ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Mon Oct 26 16:27:43 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: RT info update and boxes of manuals and disks... In-Reply-To: <3634F6BF.D7D628DE@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199810270322.WAA29947@mail.cgocable.net> Hi Everyone! Now that I got the RT cleaned up and inspected the battery leakage damages... NONE is goners! Whew. Had to wash the semi-active backplane clean and chip away all the brittle remains of that battery contents. Chipped off all the rust on the chassis and case, cleaned it with vinegar and Windex. Had to because of smoke stain, lovely smell. YUCK! Later, I will take care of those remaining rust spots with rust-inhibiter and silver coloured paint. Oh there's one screw seized and broke off to deal with. Argh. Powered it up for first time. Works! FD go seeking looking for disk but I didn't put one in. Hehehehe! All I *have* is one 40MB ESDI HD and this HD controller is Enhanced (or is that Advanced?) ESDI controller card (that one 3nd generation ESDI controller with two aluminum square chipsets.) Will that do for now? I can try everything to get HD part going even I have to use 80MB IDE and a fd/ide card or MFM controller but I don't know where I can find a old 40~70MB HD (have to find one that I can use in my storage). Here's listing of manuals and disks I have that I got with that RT PC... IBM RT PC Advanced Interactive Executive Operating System: box 1 is for Installing and Customizing the AIX operating system. box 2 is for Communications Guide box 3 is for Diskettes. Now there 3 more boxes that are: 4. IBM RT PC Guide to Operation 5. IBM RT PC User Setup Guide and Options Installation 6. Problem Determination Guide. Cards I'm leaving out to save power and no use for it yet. I have IBM made QIC-02 type controller and 160MB based on Cipher 540/F plus drive mechanical. Pair of 4 port serial cards (one has 16450 and other has 16550AFN). One AT parallel with 9pin serial card. Jason D. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From mbg at world.std.com Mon Oct 26 21:22:58 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: I hit the jackpot - if I can store the stuff Message-ID: <199810270322.AA11633@world.std.com> I found a person getting rid of a a couple of H960 tall cabs worth of DEC hardware -- and I'm the first one to have contacted him. I can take it all away... If I can find a place to store it (without having to completely reorganize the insides of my condo... I've got a call into RCS/RI for some space)... anyway, what I can get is an 11/34 (unknown condition) with a VT11, VR14 (and light pen) and an LPS11, as well as four (4) pdp-8s of various types with various media... !!! A pdp-8/a A pdp-8/e A pdp-8/f (the lab-8) another -8, I think it was an 8/m A couple of RL02s, Diablo style rk05s, rx01, dectapes... all in two tall cabs and a short cab. I don't want to let this one get away from me, so if I don't hear from RCS/RI, I may just have to compress (gzip) my condo... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Oct 26 22:06:31 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <078401be00ba$07e33380$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic .edu.au> Message-ID: <4.1.19981027150512.00eb3b10@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 06:53 PM 26-10-98 +1030, Geoff Roberts wrote: >Hi all, > >Any Aussies out there know a good place to look for an ethernet adapter >that will fit a Microvax II? I have a nice machine, complete with VMS 5.4, >freshly rescued from a scrap metal yard, but it has no network adapter. My spares cupboard is a good place to start :-) >BTW, Huw, did you ever come across a source for a Vax 8530-Console cable? I think it's in another cupboard in my spares room. It's just behind four or five 6000 series cabinets, three HSC70s and a few other bits..... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From fauradon at pclink.com Mon Oct 26 22:40:28 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: floppy drive storage Message-ID: <000c01be0163$ecc6e380$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Hi, Have you ever seen those shipping cardboard floppy mockup that you usually get with a new drive? That would be the ideal. Short of that you could probably make your own with rigid but non-abrasive carboard, use a floppy as a template and off you go... Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ -----Original Message----- From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 9:15 PM Subject: floppy drive storage >I have about 27 apple floppy drives as well as other floppy based machines and >am wondering about their long term storage. is it better to close the drive's >latch or leave it unlatched? i would think that having the drive latched/door >closed would keep the drive from possibly getting misaligned if it got moved >or bumped around but on the other hand, having the drive closed for long >periods of time could possibly deform the head load pad. comments? > >david > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Oct 26 23:59:07 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: ePay In-Reply-To: <199810270045.QAA09644@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > With some active endorsement from ClassicCmp members, and increased > support for classic computers by Haggle, I think we'd be off to an > excellent start. Making a conscious effort to move the auctions to Haggle would be a good solution. However, the people actually doing the SELLING need to be convinced of this. For all they know, they can list something on eBay and 7 days later have a small fortune. This doesn't happen on Haggle because the Antique Computers listing gets nowhere near the traffic that eBay does and people don't know to go looking there for antique computers. And unfortunately, no effort has been made to raise awareness of Haggle's auction. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 27 00:03:18 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay) In-Reply-To: <981026195549.222003a0@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > Hint for those who haven't done much dumpster diving: back your car > or truck up to the dumpster, climb into the dumpster via your rear > bumper, and start tossing :-). I did this at my office just before they closed it down and couldn't believe what they tossed. The deeper I dug the more expensive the stuff I started pulling out. But I ended up getting a visit from my friendly neighborhood police. It seems some local concerned citizen saw me pulling out all sorts of computer gear from the trash and decided something evil was being perpetrated. Go figure. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Oct 27 00:13:34 1998 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <022701be0170$faeaa840$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Huw Davies To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 27 October 1998 15:38 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >At 06:53 PM 26-10-98 +1030, Geoff Roberts wrote: >My spares cupboard is a good place to start :-) LOL. I should have known. >>BTW, Huw, did you ever come across a source for a Vax 8530-Console cable? > >I think it's in another cupboard in my spares room. It's just behind four >or five 6000 series cabinets, three HSC70s and a few other bits..... Name your price for a DELQA or DELQA-YM and the 8530 console cable. I'd swap you something, but you probably have 3 of everything I have already....:^) Hmm, you'd know the answer to this, I'm sure. Situation: We bought a complete system as spares, a 6310 with DMB-32, KDB-50 & 64mb plus a KLESI-B & TU81+ and 3 x RA90's. Very cheap, from a scrapyard. (I'm currently negotiating for the card fit from a couple of 6440's that turned up at the same place) Mission: To make our existing 6310 into a 6320 by adding a cpu card from the other machine. Problem: The ROM is the same (4.1) but the s/n etc have to match for it to be useable as a 2nd cpu. Will a save of the most recent of the cpu cards EEPROM data to the console TK70 and a restore to the other cpu duplicate the serial no? Or is their some darker art required? TIA. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Oct 27 00:32:53 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: I hit the jackpot - if I can store the stuff In-Reply-To: <199810270322.AA11633@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19981026223154.009f8a40@mcmanis.com> I'd be happy to store the 8/e for you, you could visit it any time you were in California! --Chuck At 10:22 PM 10/26/98 -0500, you wrote: > >I found a person getting rid of a a couple of H960 tall cabs >worth of DEC hardware -- and I'm the first one to have >contacted him. I can take it all away... If I can find a >place to store it (without having to completely reorganize >the insides of my condo... I've got a call into RCS/RI for >some space)... > >anyway, what I can get is an 11/34 (unknown condition) with >a VT11, VR14 (and light pen) and an LPS11, as well as four >(4) pdp-8s of various types with various media... !!! > > A pdp-8/a > A pdp-8/e > A pdp-8/f (the lab-8) > another -8, I think it was an 8/m > >A couple of RL02s, Diablo style rk05s, rx01, dectapes... >all in two tall cabs and a short cab. > >I don't want to let this one get away from me, so if I don't >hear from RCS/RI, I may just have to compress (gzip) my >condo... :-) > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Oct 27 00:33:17 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <022701be0170$faeaa840$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic .edu.au> Message-ID: <4.1.19981027173118.00cf1bb0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 04:43 PM 27-10-98 +1030, Geoff Roberts wrote: >Hmm, you'd know the answer to this, I'm sure. >Mission: >To make our existing 6310 into a 6320 by adding a cpu card from the other >machine. > >Problem: >The ROM is the same (4.1) but the s/n etc have to match for it to >be useable as a 2nd cpu. Will a save of the most recent of the cpu cards >EEPROM data >to the console TK70 and a restore to the other cpu duplicate the serial no? >Or is their some darker art required? I think this is just off topic (less than 10 years) but.... We have a 6530 with the same problem. I just ignore the errors and boot the system anyway. The only drawback is that the system will not autorestart from a power failure. I believe the correct approach is what you outlined above. If necessary I can dig out the appropriate manual. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Oct 27 00:51:47 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) In-Reply-To: <19981026181552.209d9cf8.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19981026223332.009b1c90@mcmanis.com> At 06:35 PM 10/26/98 -0800, Doug Coward's Rant... >1) Computers are appearing everywhere. I don't have to look so hard > any more. As a result I don't yell "Yipee" as loud any more, especially > when I realize what it's going to cost me. So you would prefer that these computers silently went into the land fill rather than have you see that they exist and perhaps rescue them? Perhaps this come under the heading of what you don't know doesn't hurt you... >2) A good portion of the discussions on this list are about what some >machine is > worth. A hobby that allows a person to gain complex knowledge of > so many aspects of their machines and it history has been reducted > to the level of baseball trading cards and "beanies". I would > rather hear about how someone just got a machine running for the > first time in 15 years. I think for many of the posters on the list "worth" is irrelevant in terms of SELLING computers, but many of us find it worth something to acquire them. If the promise of wealth, or even just something for what they consider to be "junk" gets those machines out into the open at least if gives you the _choice_ of deciding what it would be worth to you to get one of these computers. >3) I see a "Low Tech" craze coming. People will be mounting S-100 boards > to hang on the wall. Just like the people that buy old magazines, > cut them up to frame the old advertisements. By piecing out a computer > they make alot of money, and someone has a piece of Americana to > decorate their den, but it's taking technology out of context. > This will come when the prices "crash". Imagine you need a S-100 disk > controller. You find one,it costs a fortune and you need to chip it > out of a block of Lucite, because someone made it into a paper weight. Again, I'll argue its better than having someone make it into dust because the fingers on it had .001 oz of gold. At least I can chip out the lucite, I can't reassemble a board that has been crushed! >4) I don't care for the way it makes people react. The following is from > the CP/M list last weekend: [description deleted] Rudeness is a fact of life, I suspect it is more the caliber of people who are on the internet has gone down rather than a sudden rudening of the world. And yes, there are people who hear stories of the guy who pulled an Altair out of the dumpster and sold it on eBay for $5K. That brings a newer, less savory, portion of the population into the mix, and yet as your story shows, the seller can choose not to sell to rude people. Further you can always post a message saying in effect "I'm not rude, I'm not turning these things around for a quick buck, I'm a serious collector who will care for your machines." You'd be suprised that a lot of folks will be responsive to this. >5) "Beanies" are made to be collectible. They don't have a story to tell. > They don't have a functionality that is greater than the sum of their > parts. You don't play with them. You just display them. >And that is the biggest problem. When a treasured possession becames too >valuable to use for fear of damaging it, that defeats MY purpose for >collecting computers. > - the not so oldtimer But you haven't changed and nor has your equipment. A friend of my Dad has a '55 Porche Roadster that he bought new and kept up. Only 1,500 made, appraised at $158,000. He still drives it, plays with it. Even though by "adding miles" he reduces its value. The same it true with these old machines. You use them or you don't. I power on/off my PDP-8/e knowing that this might be the time it burns out a light bulb, but I do it anyway because I'm more entranced with the machine than with its value. So what good does it do to attempt to deny that some other types of collectors exist? So this bad thing you rant about has the effect of making computers you would never have heard about available to you. That is what a market is all about, bringing goods and consumers together. The supply of classic computers is steadily shrinking, the quantity of people interested in owning one is increasing. I share your sense of 'grief' that the "easy pickings" are harder to find (except for Megan of whom I"m intensely jealous this evening!) but it is inevitable, and it will only get worse. Or start collecting PC clones, they'll continue to be cheap for a while... --Chuck From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Oct 27 01:04:15 1998 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <024201be0178$0f121860$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Huw Davies To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 27 October 1998 18:05 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >I think this is just off topic (less than 10 years) but.... Hmmm, well, the date on the 2nd 6310 is 1989, so I guess it's a couple months early. >We have a 6530 with the same problem. I just ignore the errors and boot the >system anyway. The only drawback is that the system will not autorestart >from a power failure. Hmm, I wondered about that, I rather thought the o/s might not care, I'll have a look at that approach and see what happens. I don't have any TK70 cartridges at the moment anyway.... (Been having a ball getting ready to transfer all my VMS binary installs from 1/2" R/R tape to 4mm dat on a Vaxstation in the cluster now that I have a working 1/2" R/R tape system.) The TA78/TU78 that came with the original cluster has a couple of U/S PSU's, so I couldn't even re-install the O/S. Fortunately, I haven't needed to. Come to think of it, I don't actually know how to do an install of VMS to a bare system. Hmm, I wonder where in the grey wall THAT's documented. >I believe the correct approach is what you outlined above. If necessary I >can dig out the appropriate manual. If you mean the Vax 6000 owners manual, I did already. It implies that it does so from the console error messages in Appendix B-9, although the SAVE and RESTORE EEPROM command sections don't actually SAY that it does. Quote from VAX 6000-400 Owners Manual Console 5-37: "Saved information includes: Systemwide console parmeters (baud rate, interleave, terminal characteristics) Saved boot specifications Diagnostic patches Console patches Boot primitives" End Quote I'll give it a go as soon as I get some TK70's. Thanks for that. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 27 01:09:23 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981026223332.009b1c90@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Chuck McManis wrote: > >2) A good portion of the discussions on this list are about what some > >machine is > > worth. A hobby that allows a person to gain complex knowledge of > > so many aspects of their machines and it history has been reducted > > to the level of baseball trading cards and "beanies". I would > > rather hear about how someone just got a machine running for the > > first time in 15 years. > > I think for many of the posters on the list "worth" is irrelevant in terms > of SELLING computers, but many of us find it worth something to acquire > them. If the promise of wealth, or even just something for what they > consider to be "junk" gets those machines out into the open at least if > gives you the _choice_ of deciding what it would be worth to you to get one > of these computers. There are many ways to get computers out of hiding. Going door to door is one way, but I wouldn't recommend it. I've suggested in the past posting an ad in your local paper. Someone took me up on this suggestion and posted a follow up message describing their success. I offer that this is the best way to find old computers, and makes where you live irrelevant, which is why I have no pity for people who whine that we folks in the Silicon Valley have it better than most. The computers are out there. You just have to be smarter than the computer. Pretend you are a vintage computer, and think to yourself, "Where would I be hiding?" The answer to that is garages, basements, closets, attics, storage sheds, etc. "How would I find me?" Ask around. Send a flyer to businesses in your area offering scrap value for their old computers. One in ten reponses you get will NOT be a PC, and will make the effort worthwhile. So eBay is NOT the best way to find these old computers and get them out into the open. The trick is to find them BEFORE they hit eBay, so you have a good chance at getting it for yourself, and for cheap (sometimes free). > story shows, the seller can choose not to sell to rude people. Further you > can always post a message saying in effect "I'm not rude, I'm not turning > these things around for a quick buck, I'm a serious collector who will care > for your machines." You'd be suprised that a lot of folks will be > responsive to this. In fact, a lot of people will simply GIVE you computers if they know its going to a good home. Some guy just went through a tremendous amount of effort to dig out an NEC PC-8000 (a Z-80 based machine from Japan from the early 80s), clean it up, test it, gather software for it, package it up and ship it out to me because he knew it would have a new life in the VCF exhibition. A lot of people are holding on to their old computers because they feel they have some importance. They are simply unaware that there is an interest out there in preserving them, and hold onto them figuring if they won't, nobody will. It is those people you have to search out. Once you do, and once you convince them you will hang onto their babies and take care of them for future generations, they will generally give you their computers, or in the very least sell them for cheap. > So this bad thing you rant about has the effect of making computers you > would never have heard about available to you. That is what a market is all > about, bringing goods and consumers together. I think the one point that Doug made that rings out the loudest is that its no longer fun. Its much more exciting to come across a computer you've never seen or heard of before in some dusty old surplus store and have a chance at buying it, as opposed to seeing it listed on eBay and knowing there's a 1% chance you'll end up with it. It's a double-edged sword ("double-sided diskette" seems a more appropriate cliche :). Either you'll never know it existed and thus will be content, or you'll know it exists but someone with far greater discretionary income got it instead of you. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Oct 27 01:39:36 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: ePay In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 26, 98 09:59:07 pm Message-ID: <199810270739.XAA15169@saul7.u.washington.edu> > Making a conscious effort to move the auctions to Haggle would be a good > solution. However, the people actually doing the SELLING need to be > convinced of this. For all they know, they can list something on eBay and > 7 days later have a small fortune. This doesn't happen on Haggle because > the Antique Computers listing gets nowhere near the traffic that eBay does > and people don't know to go looking there for antique computers. And > unfortunately, no effort has been made to raise awareness of Haggle's > auction. I have not been paying attention, so I could be wrong. But it seems to me that this argument is a bit worthless because if you succeed in moving all the old computer auctions over to Haggle, and Haggle becomes popular, then the same old dirty dealings will happen on Haggle too, just like eBay. I guess you're hoping that eBay will remain popular for ordinary auctions and Haggle will become popular for computer auctions... this might work but it might actually make things worse, if the compu-vultures start to pay special attention to Haggle. If you're banking on some innate difference between eBay and Haggle... well, yes, that might work. Boy, I'm really pessimistic (especially considering I've never actually used eBay or Haggle). -- Derek From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 27 02:09:43 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: ePay In-Reply-To: <199810270739.XAA15169@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > I have not been paying attention, so I could be wrong. But it seems to me > that this argument is a bit worthless because if you succeed in moving all > the old computer auctions over to Haggle, and Haggle becomes popular, then > the same old dirty dealings will happen on Haggle too, just like eBay. Except for the fact that the owner of Haggle is also an avid computer collector, and is sympathetic to this sort of thing (he's also, irony of all ironies, a user of eBay). So I'm sure he would be open to refining his auction to prevent this from happening. > I guess you're hoping that eBay will remain popular for ordinary auctions > and Haggle will become popular for computer auctions... this might work but > it might actually make things worse, if the compu-vultures start to pay > special attention to Haggle. If you're banking on some innate difference > between eBay and Haggle... well, yes, that might work. One of my points (which I forget to mention) was that it will bring all the computers into one listing so you don't have to go searching for them in a bunch of different categories amidst other uninteresting crap. The other point is that we can get Haggle to alter its auction policy (I've discussed this at length with the owner). eBay could give a rat's ass what you think. They're just happily collecting listing fees. > Boy, I'm really pessimistic (especially considering I've never actually > used eBay or Haggle). Good. You should keep it that way. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Oct 27 03:38:00 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: ePay In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 27, 98 00:09:43 am Message-ID: <199810270938.BAA08994@saul4.u.washington.edu> > > Boy, I'm really pessimistic (especially considering I've never actually > > used eBay or Haggle). > > Good. You should keep it that way. What, being pessimistic? I probably will. Oh, you meant not buying from eBay. :) Well, I am also pessimistic about the availabiltiy of computers (for example, how easy is it to find a working PDP-8/E these days?) and software (you already saw my Robot Odyssey post). However, I assume that people don't tend to sell these sorts of items on eBay. -- Derek From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 27 04:00:59 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay) In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:03:18 -0800 (PST)) References: Message-ID: <19981027100059.4186.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sam wrote: > But I ended up getting a visit from my friendly > neighborhood police. It seems some local concerned citizen saw me pulling > out all sorts of computer gear from the trash and decided something evil > was being perpetrated. Go figure. What did the police have to say about it? At what point does the contents of the dumpster become publicly available? I imagine that this might be a different point than the one at which police are aloud to search for evidence, but IANAL. Eric From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 27 05:51:57 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: 16 Exabytes storrage (was: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Build Message-ID: <199810271032.LAA06095@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> The size isn't the real problem - you already get 16 Gig in less >> than 320 cm^3 (using hard disk technology) which is more than >> 100 Meg per cm^3, which gives us 100x100x100x100 Meg or 100 Tera >> per m^3 (Only heat will be a problem, but if we assume that this >> will shrink by the factor 2 within the next few years, we get >> enough space for cooling without developing a new technology). >> 100 Tera are 100x2^40 Bytes so, for 16 exabytes you need >> 10x2^18 m^3 or 64x64x64x10 m^3 - just the size of a ordinary >> 160 store skyscraper. Nothing real big - isn't it? - and especialy >> not a mountain. and if we assume a increasing density by 10 within >> the next years, it is less than a warehouse. >> (I just left the disc acces time out of calculation, but acording >> to any information availabel from disk manufacturers the internal >> caches will eliminate this almost to zero :) > Not so... > We can have 1 Terabytes now. > Seagate just announced their new drives in 3.5" I think in 50GB. > Use 20 of them and still fit in 1 minicomputer box. Just anounced ... hmm ok, will be availabel next year. So lets see 1 Tera in a minicomputer box ? Lets take the size of my minitower beside my desk (latest series SIEMENS Pro M7) its 20x46x44cm or 40.480 cm^3 (I cut off some plastic parts and the sidedes to lower the size and we ignore the need of power cables) lets say 40.000 cm^3 that gives us 25 units per m^3 (1 m^3 = 1.000.000 cm^3) - still four times more tan in my last experiment. Remember I never said 1 Tera is out of reach the mainframe I'm working on has a bit more than just a Tera as disk storrage. It's just about how to get 16 Exas of address space filled with minimum size requirements. Ok, but we can continue to use the Barracuda 50 as a known base for calculation. It will be a full height 3 1/2" drive thats 42x102x147 mm^3 or 629,748 cm^3. since this drive still radiates some 20W of heat, we still need cooling, but as in my first example we just double the space to add high eficient cooling (and cables and montage space) so we get some 1260 cm^3 now again packing it to the m^3 gives us 793 units - lets say 800 for easy calculation which gives us exactly 50x800 = 40.000 Meg or 40 Tera. I think we have still two years or so to wait before geting our 100 Tera per m^3... And for the price, the Baracuda 50 is anounced at USD 2.100, so 800 drives are just USD 1.620.000. Well I think we could get som off from Segate, if we sell more of our Storrage Meters ((c) ClassicCmp) :))) > And can be run > off the 15A 115VAC or two plus the computer iteslf. :) Didn't I say anything about power requirements ? And please just show me one drive (from today!) that is just connected to 115V (or 230V). We need a 5/12V DC supply with about 20W per drive (~6W at 5V and 14W at 12V with 30W peak). So 800 drives are somewhat like 16 kW so lets get 20 kW and regarding this, we just cant use 115 V even 400 V 3L~ will be kind of stressed :). And at our 12V line we get a current up to 1800 A peak or 700 A idle wich leads us to a copper rail of some 20 cm^2 to get a load of less than 100A per cm^2 (for US imaginations thats 3x1" solid copper) for the main supply line. And a second one will be needed for 5V and ground. Maybe we take silver (real cheap right now) so we could halve the size :) Oh, and a power supply of this capacity would be almost the same size than our Storage Meter (c), so we have to half the capacity, or just don't tell te customers that we need dubble the proposed space just to fire it up. All calculations ar rough estimation based on actual 10 Gig drives. Real proportions are not used to simplify calcualtion. Servus hans P.S.: it feels good to think of copper in cm^2 instead of fine line wire... -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Oct 27 05:06:33 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: ePay References: <9810269094.AA909425727@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> <363d179e.676844991@insight> Message-ID: <3635A937.68E8A614@bigfoot.com> It's just as bad in live auctions too. I used to go to auto auctions and as the item/car was closing someone would bid $5 over mine and get the car I waited around to bid on for two or three hours. That's life I guess. Bill Richman wrote: > Yeah, but it's *such* a pisser when the sniping twit gets it for your > maximum plus 50 cents!! Like you'd say "Golly - I *really* want that > Altair that's autographed by the original designers, and I'll pay $5,550 > for it, but not $5,550.50!" I know I'm *way* too good at convincing > myself that my original bid was too low... And then there's always the > "Oh yeah??? Well screw _you_ buddy - take THI$$$$$!" mindset that has > led me to establish new records for ridiculous prices on eBay... (But I > _did_ get the item, dammit!! ;-) > > On Mon, 26 Oct 98 13:23:26 -0500, david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov wrote: > > >On the whole, I find it liberating to just bid my maximum and let the > >chips fall where they may. > > > > Dav Vandenbroucke > > Economist > > U.S. Dept. HUD > > david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov > > > > -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) > http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer > Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.) From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Tue Oct 27 05:28:30 1998 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information >about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software >wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. yes it does >I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found >that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot >checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. thats what headings r 4 >99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites. good 4 u From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 27 06:45:34 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Now quite OT: Re: ePay Message-ID: <199810271125.MAA27225@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> I would prefere the last one, because it would reflect the >> idea of proxy bidding - bid once and let the eBay do its job. > I personally *hate* the proxy bid idea. At least how it works on eBay. > There's not many things as demoralizing than seeing something nifty with a > bid of $2.00 on it and someone has put a maximum bid of $50.00 on it. The > whole fun of an incremental auction is the small jumps in bidding and that > soul-searching question you have to ask yourself each time you're outbid: > "Do I really want to go a buck higher on that [insert item here]?" Shure, real auctions are real fun, but a proxy auction is the closest thing possible without going for a sealed bid auction, since it combines both for the well of the buyer. > What I'd love to see is a live auction site, where the auctions for each > item don't last more than 10 minutes or so. Descriptions/pictures for the > items could be on a separate server a week in advance (like the preview > for a real auction) and an item catalog that people could print out. Just for my information - are you willing to put up an pay my private line to this auction centre ? At the usual afternoon to midnight traffic jam on the trans atlantic conections, I sometines need four or five minutes to reload an eBay page. Gruss H. Kai mentioned Haggle online (I still laugh at the lit'l characters:), but as long as they still only do the same (including suporting this stupid minimum bid thing - where is the sense of a min bid beside avoide getting sold?) as eBay, I belive they woun't go for number one. Just putting up a good category isn't enough (even if he would enshure that less noise is inside Antique Computers). -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mbg at world.std.com Tue Oct 27 06:15:29 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: I hit the jackpot - if I can store the stuff Message-ID: <199810271215.AA01202@world.std.com> >I'd be happy to store the 8/e for you, you could visit it any time you >were in California! Yeah, right... :-) Thanks for the offer... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 27 07:43:13 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: ePay Message-ID: <199810271223.NAA13926@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Rather than looking at sniping as a "bug", perhaps it should be > considered a "feature". There are scavengers in all ecosystems. I > guarantee you the powers at Ebay probably consider sniping to be an > asset. If they got rid of it, bid traffic would be 20 or 30% lower and > prices overall (complete total) might actually be lower. Perhaps sniping > is one of those key reasons why Ebay has grown so large. Please ? The whole idea of sniping is just to avoide a real competition situation. In fact, it may lower the price of all 'needed' goods, because nobody will get a chance to top the sniper. So a final price might have been higher. And bid traffic isn't a thing a auction system like eBay need - Traffic is just cost to pay and lowers profit. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 27 07:43:14 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Haggle Online (Was: ePay) Message-ID: <199810271223.NAA13863@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> Jep. If not eBay, maybe another system will pick up the idea. >> This could maybe give em the right difference for competition. > I wish it were this simple. eBay already has the reputation among > "collectors" (I use that term to include the speculators and idiots as > well) as being THE place to go to sell and buy vintage computers. I'd > much rather this place be Haggle Online since that site has a specific > "Antique Computers" listing (http://www.haggle.com/cache/cat43.html). > Someone has to come along and actively market their site as THE place to > buy/sell vintage computers, and then institute a good auction policy that > will cut down on the gripes we are hearing here. I don't think that 'marketing' is the most needed. It needs some different details to get more attention. The Antique Computer colume is one step - also keeping the theme (dash out OT). But there is still this anoying min bid thing and the sniper possibility (althrough I haven't seen any special Haggle sniping SW until now). Why I'm aginst min bids ? Now, first it prevents from giving a bin in an amount I think is reasonable. Second, thru canceling this maybe very low bid, it avoids any bidding competition wich eventualy will rise the price above ana limit. For an example there is an actual SX-64 on Haggle with an min bid of 75 USD and no bid from any of the more than 30 visitors. When comparing to eBay, where SXes are sold for something like 70 to 120 USD the price idea isn't wrong, but nobody jumps in. While on eBay such a SX starts at some 10 USD and rises. In fact, until now the minbid has disatracted me from at least 5 items. I maybe would have end at a price above the min bid, within the auction, but for shure to expensive to start with. The reserved price thing, where the seller reserves the richt to refuses if a specific price isn't reached is a lot more usefull. No seller will claim his reserved price if the auction ends just 5 USD below, but at least a price is negotiated. The only thing I dislike is the automatic lift to the reserve, if the _maximum_ bid is above. > I'm ready to start if someone is willing to follow my lead. Oh master, be my leader (Or was it Heil Salaam?). SCNR. For real, I look at Haggle Online at least twice a week, but as long as I cant't go for what I need, I have still to stay at eBay. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 27 07:48:43 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) Message-ID: <199810271228.NAA16535@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> Jim about his Intellec/Altair thing. For shure, the Intellec is a >> nice thing, but everybody just looks at the Altair. > Except me :-). As I've mentioned before, years ago I was offered the > choice between an Altair and an Intellec MCS8i (8080 CPU) and I picked > the Intellec. It looked to be the much more interesting machine. :) lucky one. I would love to get the Intellec, but I still have to work 9 to 5 for my money ... or better for tax paying :) So anything beside lets say 350 USD per month isn't possible for me. Gruss H. So, I hope I recive a lot of cheques from all of you, who are just cry about my bad situation and like to help a poor guy :)))))) Hey, at least I can try ! -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Oct 27 08:28:18 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay) In-Reply-To: <19981027100059.4186.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981027082818.44174b76@intellistar.net> At 10:00 AM 10/27/98 -0000, you wrote: >Sam wrote: >> But I ended up getting a visit from my friendly >> neighborhood police. It seems some local concerned citizen saw me pulling >> out all sorts of computer gear from the trash and decided something evil >> was being perpetrated. Go figure. > >What did the police have to say about it? > >At what point does the contents of the dumpster become publicly available? >I imagine that this might be a different point than the one at which police >are aloud to search for evidence, but IANAL. I know a couple of guys that dumpster dive nearly every night. The police have pulled them over numerous times. They usually check them and their stuff then let them go. Sometimes they tell them to leave but that's all. They've never been taken in or arrested. FWIW There was a court case (supreme court?) some years ago that involved the police searching trash cans for evidence. The court ruled that stuff thrown into the trash and and placed on the public right of way (street) for pickup was publicly available and no longer private property. Of course, many commercial trash dumpsters are still located on company property so this may have no bearing. Joe From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Oct 27 06:49:21 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Fairchild Channel F Message-ID: <003601be01a8$82b3af60$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Hi all, It's been claimed.... Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ -----Original Message----- From: Francois To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, October 24, 1998 5:46 PM Subject: Fairchild Channel F >Hi, >I finally got around to going to the thrift store and picked up that Channel >F. >It cost me $10 and has Carts number 12 Baseball and 16 Dodge it. >Whoever wanted it please respond to fauradon@pclink.com > > >Francois >------------------------------------------------------------- >Visit the desperately in need of update >Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ > From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 27 08:22:24 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Message-ID: <199810271302.OAA24171@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Well this list used to be good, now it has degenerated into 80%+ noise. depends - I'll like it more every day. > I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information > about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software > wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. Depends waht you think information is - if it's just about some date, most searchbots will give you faster information (heaps). But if its about living knowledge the list is great. I'm talking to people, not a database - and the asociative search engine here delivers very interesting, related things beside just numbers. In fact, most of all questions I ever had to get information of a special kind from the listended up nowhere, but I recived _very_ interesting implications about the information I needed (And I'm still searching for a second Commodore B500 and who owns the ROM rights on the KIM-1). > What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers It's an idea with some relations to the past (you know, the good old times) wich imples a lot about fundamental things. And if People are arguing about, it can't be realy OT (even I belive it was just a troll). > What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers Now come on - where you living ? eBay is a mayor place for trade of our old stuff. Hey, this is on topic as on topic can ever be. That are actual problems of collecting. > What does a modern college education have to do with old computers See the fist one - just a good old time thing - AND a never ending question if we are the last generation able to build a computer from scratch, even including the CPU. > I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found > that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot > checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. Reading just the headers is missleading - very missleading. I did it sometimes, especialy when they where talking about DEC stuff, where I have no personal link, even no information about, and before I even realized I passed some _very_ interesting themes - nobody can reflect complex things in just a header. I've learned my lesson - now I peek at least inside _every_ message. > Go back and re-read what this list was supposed to be about. Hmm ever noticed that the FAQ is very vague about it ? Maybe because a living list was intendet, not a list where no talks at all are happening, because nobody is able to say soooo important things that the holy charter will grant him the right to post ? > 99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites. Good for you. Single source information is always bad. Gruss H. I beg for excuse for some cynic parts, but I cant withstand my nature, especialy when its abaut regualtions. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Oct 27 07:05:39 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay) Message-ID: <48e4637.3635c523@aol.com> you might want to ask the regulars over in alt.dumpster about this. seems some of them on that ng have gotten hassled by The Man when they were dd'ing and even charged with criminal mischief depending on the cop's mood. david In a message dated 10/27/98 7:41:29 AM US Eastern Standard Time, rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > I know a couple of guys that dumpster dive nearly every night. The > police have pulled them over numerous times. They usually check them and > their stuff then let them go. Sometimes they tell them to leave but that's > all. They've never been taken in or arrested. FWIW There was a court case > (supreme court?) some years ago that involved the police searching trash > cans for evidence. The court ruled that stuff thrown into the trash and and > placed on the public right of way (street) for pickup was publicly > available and no longer private property. Of course, many commercial trash > dumpsters are still located on company property so this may have no bearing. From david_a._vandenbroucke at hud.gov Tue Oct 27 07:28:42 1998 From: david_a._vandenbroucke at hud.gov (david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: ePay Message-ID: <9810279094.AA909494484@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) says >Yeah, but it's *such* a pisser when the sniping twit gets it for your maximum plus 50 >cents!! Like you'd say "Golly - I *really* want that Altair that's autographed by the >original designers, and I'll pay $5,550 for it, but not $5,550.50!" I know I'm *way* too >good at convincing myself that my original bid was too low... And then there's always the >"Oh yeah??? Well screw _you_ buddy - take THI$$$$$!" mindset that has led me to establish >new records for ridiculous prices on eBay... (But I _did_ get the item, dammit!! ;-) One must cultivate serenity and patience if one is to participate in auctions, oh Grasshopper. On the other hand, I just got a NEC 8201 (TRS-80 Model 100 clone) for only $36.00. (If this isn't such a great price, please dont' tell me. It will interfere with my serenity and patience.) Dav Vandenbroucke Economist U.S. Dept. HUD david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From dburrows at netpath.net Tue Oct 27 07:34:39 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <00d801be01af$006dc110$a60b0b0b@p166> >DDA? Ok, thanks. Appreciated. The DDA Trader is a monthly publication for used DEC dealers listing what parts they have and prices. I can't afford the approx.$100 per month but have some friends that send me their 1 or 2 month old ones. It also has about a 75 page section listing all the subscribers names and locations (30+ per page) sorted alphabetically by name of course not location. Let me know if you can't find something (I noticed a good response later in this tread) and I will see what I can find. Dan Burrows dburrows@netpath.net From david_a._vandenbroucke at hud.gov Tue Oct 27 08:20:39 1998 From: david_a._vandenbroucke at hud.gov (david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: ebay Message-ID: <9810279094.AA909497544@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> Stephen Dauphin >There was a recent discussion on the list of being dropped on a desert island and >establishing civilization. I say we parachute Sam in his underpants with a knife and a >compass into some podunk in the Midwest, and see how fast he comes up with a Vintage >Computer Festival, even the size of the first, from scratch. Podunk Junction happens to be in central Iowa. I could steer Sam to someone I know near there who has two Kaypro 10s and a Kaypro letter quality printer, which will get him started. Does Stephen own a Dauphin? I don't think they're quite old enough for the "classic" definition. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 27 09:49:01 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Dolphin (was Re: ebay) Message-ID: <199810271429.PAA25054@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Does Stephen own a Dauphin? I don't think they're quite old enough > for the "classic" definition. Dauphin ? You're not talkin about the Dolphin ? A kit system from the late 70's from Swizzerland ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From david_a._vandenbroucke at hud.gov Tue Oct 27 08:41:21 1998 From: david_a._vandenbroucke at hud.gov (david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Dolphin (was Re: ebay) Message-ID: <9810279094.AA909498798@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> >Dauphin ? You're not talkin about the Dolphin ? >A kit system from the late 70's from Swizzerland ? No, I'm talking about the Dauphin DTR-1, a cute little 486-powered, pen-and-keyboard-capable portable computer. The "DTR" stands for "desktop replacement," which was overpromising a bit. As far as I know, there was no "DTR-2." Dav Vandenbroucke Economist U.S. Dept. HUD david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Tue Oct 27 09:03:42 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model II stuff! In-Reply-To: <199810270314.WAA15929@smtp.interlog.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19981023103350.0092ba90@texas.net> <363049F3.EA8E827D@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981027090342.009b26a0@texas.net> Okay, For anyone interested (Larry).... I am going home (to Virginia) for thanksgiving and I will pull out one of my model IIs and get all of the still useable software and manuals. I will make copies available to anyone who wants if someone can tell me how to copy the 8" discs to a file on a PC (either using Linux or Dos). I can serial port the machines togethet but, I have no idea how to read off all the sectors of the 8 inches. Arfon "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Tue Oct 27 09:07:16 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Help with an Amiga... In-Reply-To: <199810270314.WAA15929@smtp.interlog.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19981023103350.0092ba90@texas.net> <363049F3.EA8E827D@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981027090716.009ec620@texas.net> Hey, I picked up an old Amiga 1000 yesterday without a keyboard, mouse or monitor. Can anyone point me to an Amiga 1000, 2000 or 3000 source or technical information on these keyboards so I can wire one up myself. Any information on useable monitors or mice? Arfon "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 27 09:07:55 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Help with an Amiga... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981027090716.009ec620@texas.net> References: <199810270314.WAA15929@smtp.interlog.com> <3.0.3.32.19981023103350.0092ba90@texas.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981027090755.00d09100@pc> At 09:07 AM 10/27/98 -0600, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: >Hey, I picked up an old Amiga 1000 yesterday without a keyboard, mouse or >monitor. >Can anyone point me to an Amiga 1000, 2000 or 3000 source or technical >information on these keyboards so I can wire one up myself. >Any information on useable monitors or mice? Did you try searching the net? There must be ten thousand Amiga die-hard sites. Or try Dejanews. What is this, an oracle? Amiga keyboards were proprietary, so your best bet would be to find another Amiga keyboard. The mice were compatible with Sun three-button mice, I think. Monitors were analog RGB, and the A1000 has a composite output, too. - John From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 27 10:31:27 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Dolphin (was Re: ebay) Message-ID: <199810271511.QAA04720@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>Dauphin ? You're not talkin about the Dolphin ? >>A kit system from the late 70's from Swizzerland ? > No, I'm talking about the Dauphin DTR-1, a cute little 486-powered, > pen-and-keyboard-capable portable computer. The "DTR" stands for > "desktop replacement," which was overpromising a bit. As far as I > know, there was no "DTR-2." One more for the I-Want-Them-All list. :) H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk Tue Oct 27 09:20:33 1998 From: kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk (KNIGHT G.A) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Joyboard In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981027090716.009ec620@texas.net> Message-ID: In 1983 the original Amiga Inc company (formerly known as Hi-Toro) launched a joyboard for the Atari 2600. It was similar to many of the arcade games such as WaveRider that exist today as you placed your whole body on it. Does anyone have one of these? I'm looking for some scans and technical information of one actually in operation. Any help would be appreciated. Regards, Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://welcome.to/aig From yowza at yowza.com Tue Oct 27 09:31:35 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Dolphin (was Re: ebay) In-Reply-To: <9810279094.AA909498798@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov wrote: > No, I'm talking about the Dauphin DTR-1, a cute little 486-powered, > pen-and-keyboard-capable portable computer. The "DTR" stands for > "desktop replacement," which was overpromising a bit. As far as I > know, there was no "DTR-2." Yes, there was a DTR-2 (better keyboard, faster CPU, and PCMCIA, I think). Dauphin is still around (sort of): http://www.dauphintech.com/ -- Doug From kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk Tue Oct 27 09:42:52 1998 From: kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk (KNIGHT G.A) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Help with an Amiga... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981027090755.00d09100@pc> Message-ID: > Amiga keyboards were proprietary, so your best bet would be to find > another Amiga keyboard. The mice were compatible with Sun three-button > mice, I think. Monitors were analog RGB, and the A1000 has a composite > output, too. It's possible to get adaptors to allow connection of cheap PC keyboards. These retail for about £20 (I'm not sure about the US price). One of the best that I have heard of is the AteoICP. I don't know which country you are in so I've included a list of all of the dealers from the Ateo webpage. You can also find installation instructions at http://www.ateo-concepts.com/eicp.html Real Amiga keyboards retail for about £40-50 so it is up to you if you want to spend this type of money. DEALER LIST White Knight Technology P.O. Box 38, Ware, Herts., SG11 1TX, U.K. Phone : +44 (0) 1920 822 321 Fax : +44 (0) 1920 822 302 Email : White_Knight_Tech@CompuServe.Com Wizard Development 5, Blackfen Parade Sidcup DA15 9LU KENT Tél:+44 181 303 1800 Fax : +44 181 303 1861 Email: webmaster@wizard-d.demon.co.uk POINT DESIGN SOFTWARE Murchargasse 35/1/4 8010 - GRAZ Tél: +43 316 684809 Fax: +43 316 684839 email: jschober@pointdesign.com web: http://www.pointdesign.com KDH DATENTECHNIK Sudring 65 72160 HORB Tél: +49 7451 555 111 Fax: +49 7451 555 115 email: info@khd-datentechnik.com Génération Amiga 22, Rue de l'église St Gilles 1060 - BRUXELLES Tél : +32 25 38 93 60 Fax : +32 25 38 91 35 Email : genamiga@arcadis.be Megavision d.o.o. Ante Startcevica 5 51000 Rijeka Tél: +385 51 21 42 44 Fax: +385 51 21 42 44 email: megavision@ri.tel.hr email: megavision@tvri.fido.hr TU AMIGA ORDENADORES Dimas Caparros C/ Cabeza n°2 18800 BAZA Tél: +34 958 700 407 Fax: +34 958 700 407 email: dcaparros@readysoft.es Randomize, Inc. R.R. #2, Tottenham, Ont. L0G 1W0 Tél : 905-939-8371 Fax : 905-939-8745 Email : thom@randomize.com Web : http://www.randomize.com Macro Hard Arseneau 7630 Mote Road West Milton 45383 - OHIO email: prang@dnaco.net Free Distribution Software 82, Rue de Sailly BP 134 59453 LYS LEZ LANNOY CEDEX Tél : +33 (0)3.20.02.06.63 Fax : +33 (0)3.20.82.17.99 Email : freedi1@ibm.net Web : http://www.fdsoft.com Gelain 22, Avenue de Saxe 69006 LYON Tél : +33 (0)4.78.52.77.62 Fax : +33 (0)4.72.74.18.79 HD Micro 9bis, Rue Parcheminerie 49100 ANGERS Tél : +33 (0)2.41.24.04.05 Fax : +33 (0)2.41.24.04.05 Micro Connexion Services 78, Rue Pierre Semard 86530 NAINTRE Tél : +33 (0)5.49.90.20.57 Fax : +33 (0)5.49.90.20.57 Mig Informatique 20, Rue Consolat 13001 MARSEILLE Tél : +33 (0)4.91.50.22.55 Fax : +33 (0)4.91.50.24.23 VAV Video 165, Rue de Breteuil 13006 MARSEILLE Tél : +33 (0)4.91.53.10.10 Fax : +33 (0)4.91.53.54.34 W.G. Computers Via Sanzio 128 50053 Empoli Tél: +39 571 711 512 Fax: +39 571 530 635 Dedem Automatica Srl Ariccia Via Cancelliera 59 00040 CECCHINA Tél: +39 693 0261 Fax : +39 693 0262 01 AG Computer Via Plebis Rea 25 A/B 92100 - AGRIENTO Phone/Tél: +39 922 21954 Fax: +39 922 27805 Bruce Abbott Web: www.hawkesbay.com/hcw/ GJERDE TELE DATA Knappskog 5353 - STRAUME Tél: +47 56 33 23 93 Fax: +47 56 33 28 88 email: oygj@haukeland.no COMPUTER CITY Zebrastraat 7-9 3064 LR ROTTERDAM Tél: +31 10 451 7722 Fax: +31 10 451 7748 email: info@compcity.nl web: www.compcity.nl AK DATA Wallgrensgata 10 54144 Skövde Tél: +46 500 459 808 Fax: +46 500 459 809 email: c95johnwi@dormnet.his.se web: www.akdata.just.nu RELEC Village du Levant CH 1530 PAYERNE Tél : +26 660 02 82 Fax : +26 660 02 83 Email : relec@com.mcnet.ch Web : http://www.relec.ch/relec MEGAViZYON Haldun Taner Sok. 4, Kent Bloklari A-7 Merter 34010 Istanbul Tél: +90 212 6413319 Fax: +90 212 6411799 web: http://www.megavizyon.com From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 27 10:09:12 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: Commodore 128D In-Reply-To: <19981027013214.1166.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Oct 26, 98 05:32:14 pm Message-ID: <199810271609.JAA09796@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981027/0ea9d074/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 27 10:05:30 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II stuff!) Message-ID: <981027110530.222003f4@trailing-edge.com> > For anyone interested (Larry).... I am going home (to Virginia) for >thanksgiving and I will pull out one of my model IIs and get all of the >still useable software and manuals. I will make copies available to >anyone who wants if someone can tell me how to copy the 8" discs to a file >on a PC (either using Linux or Dos). > I can serial port the machines togethet but, I have no idea how to read >off all the sectors of the 8 inches. This is a question that has been dealt with very thoroughly in the past. Sydex (http://www.sydex.com/) has some very excellent software available for dealing with "foreign" floppy formats, and can deal with many (but not all) 8" floppy formats. Instead of going into great detail on how to use these tools, I will instead just refer you to the CP/M FAQ at http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/CPM-faq/faq.html specifically, Q14: "Can I read my 8" disks with my PC?" I hope nobody takes this reply as a brush-off as a result of a good fraction of my business coming from reading old media, including (but by no means limited to) 8" floppy disks. Even though references to non-mailing-list resources seem to very sparse on the CLASSICCMP mailing list, I just want folks to know that there *are* very useful FAQ's out there that deal with the issue thoroughly already. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From marvin at rain.org Tue Oct 27 10:11:44 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) References: Message-ID: <3635F0C0.3944483E@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > In fact, a lot of people will simply GIVE you computers if they know its > going to a good home. Some guy just went through a tremendous amount of I have gotten a number of computers that way including the Lisa 2 and IBM 5100. Even when told what the computer might be worth, people have still given me computers. > I think the one point that Doug made that rings out the loudest is that > its no longer fun. Its much more exciting to come across a computer > you've never seen or heard of before in some dusty old surplus store and > have a chance at buying it, as opposed to seeing it listed on eBay and > knowing there's a 1% chance you'll end up with it. We disagree here, as I still think it is a lot of fun. As far as the chance of ending up with it, it is exactly what you are willing to pay for it. While it is a lot of fun to find something new for free or very low cost (i.e. the IBM TPC I just got), I do not agree with taking advantage of peoples ignorance about what something might be worth, especially if I am out soliciting computers. Running into them on ads or at swap meets does not constitute taking advantage :)! From aaron at wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 27 10:22:41 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) In-Reply-To: <3635F0C0.3944483E@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote: > We disagree here, as I still think it is a lot of fun. As far as the chance > of ending up with it, it is exactly what you are willing to pay for it. Like that guy who just bought the 1200XL on eBay for $600... From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Oct 27 06:20:13 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: floppy drive storage In-Reply-To: <000c01be0163$ecc6e380$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: <199810271624.LAA00596@smtp.interlog.com> On 26 Oct 98 at 22:40, Francois wrote: > Hi, > Have you ever seen those shipping cardboard floppy mockup that you usually > get with a new drive? That would be the ideal. Short of that you could > probably make your own with rigid but non-abrasive carboard, use a floppy as > a template and off you go... > Francois > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Visit the desperately in need of update > Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ That's what was in the formerly dusty and dirty Kaypro II I picked up. It had billing info and charges on it from the repair. Obviously unreclaimed and unused since being repaired years ago. Fdd's seem fine -enough to recognize that I'm not using the proper disk. Kaypro fdd's and I never seem to get along. ciao larry > > >I have about 27 apple floppy drives as well as other floppy based machines > and > >am wondering about their long term storage. is it better to close the > drive's > >latch or leave it unlatched? i would think that having the drive > latched/door > >closed would keep the drive from possibly getting misaligned if it got > moved > >or bumped around but on the other hand, having the drive closed for long > >periods of time could possibly deform the head load pad. comments? > > > >david > > > > > lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Oct 27 06:20:14 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: ebay In-Reply-To: <9810279094.AA909497544@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> Message-ID: <199810271624.LAA00600@smtp.interlog.com> On 27 Oct 98 at 9:20, david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.go wrote: > Stephen Dauphin > > >There was a recent discussion on the list of being dropped on a > desert island and >establishing civilization. I say we parachute Sam > in his underpants with a knife and a >compass into some podunk in the > Midwest, and see how fast he comes up with a Vintage >Computer > Festival, even the size of the first, from scratch. > > > Podunk Junction happens to be in central Iowa. I could steer Sam to > someone I know near there who has two Kaypro 10s and a Kaypro letter > quality printer, which will get him started. > > Does Stephen own a Dauphin? I don't think they're quite old enough > for the "classic" definition. > > --Dav > david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov > Dauphin is a small city in central Manitoba with a small community college near where I am planning on retiring to in some 2 1/2 years -with my collection.(yes Virginia they do have an ISPor a satellite feed) Podunck Junctions not so far. I could lend him some spare DEC RX50 floppies if needed. Hey a vintage computer mecca in the heartland. And who knows what may be hiding out there after the 0-bay gleaners have gutted the silicon valley trove. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Oct 27 10:32:14 1998 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:43 2005 Subject: I hit the jackpot - if I can store the stuff In-Reply-To: <199810270322.AA11633@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199810271632.LAA30179@quartz.netsync.net> Great job Megan! I hope you can get help in storing the gear. I know what that problem is like. Those 8's are a real find for sure. I guess we can say you're now one of the few folks who has a true variety of 8's :) I have no room left at our new house for anymore of my collection, tools, stuff, etc. But you say you have a condo. That is sometimes a relatively small residence to begin with. How does the other condo members feel about the gear you haul into your place all the time? :) You probably use "Creative Packing". Myself, I have to steal some time form working around the two houses in order to make up a list of the DEC stuff I cannot keep and post it here. Need the room badly and don't want to store some of the gear in the two garages (lousy conditions in wintertime.) Been saying that for better than two months now but being temporarily unemployed makes me *really* busy around the houses (remodeling, etc.) Not much time for messing w/computers & old radios and spending quiet times with the family. Hans Franke can verify the amount of stuff in here --and that was *before* I hauled more radios, library contents, tools and equipment over from the old house! C'mon RCS folks! Help her save this batch of goodies! Good luck, Chris P.S.: Uh, what software do you use to gzip your condo???? I need that myself. At 22:22 10/26/98 -0500, you wrote: > >I found a person getting rid of a a couple of H960 tall cabs >worth of DEC hardware -- and I'm the first one to have >contacted him. I can take it all away... If I can find a >place to store it (without having to completely reorganize >the insides of my condo... I've got a call into RCS/RI for >some space)... > >anyway, what I can get is an 11/34 (unknown condition) with >a VT11, VR14 (and light pen) and an LPS11, as well as four >(4) pdp-8s of various types with various media... !!! > > A pdp-8/a > A pdp-8/e > A pdp-8/f (the lab-8) > another -8, I think it was an 8/m > >A couple of RL02s, Diablo style rk05s, rx01, dectapes... >all in two tall cabs and a short cab. > >I don't want to let this one get away from me, so if I don't >hear from RCS/RI, I may just have to compress (gzip) my >condo... :-) Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 27 11:55:24 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: ePay References: <9810279094.AA909494484@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> Message-ID: <3636090C.54675EE7@cnct.com> david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov wrote: > > Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) says > > >Yeah, but it's *such* a pisser when the sniping twit gets it for your > maximum plus 50 >cents!! Like you'd say "Golly - I *really* want that > Altair that's autographed by the >original designers, and I'll pay > $5,550 for it, but not $5,550.50!" I know I'm *way* too >good at > convincing myself that my original bid was too low... And then > there's always the >"Oh yeah??? Well screw _you_ buddy - take > THI$$$$$!" mindset that has led me to establish >new records for > ridiculous prices on eBay... (But I _did_ get the item, dammit!! ;-) > > One must cultivate serenity and patience if one is to participate in > auctions, oh Grasshopper. > > On the other hand, I just got a NEC 8201 (TRS-80 Model 100 clone) for > only $36.00. (If this isn't such a great price, please dont' tell me. > It will interfere with my serenity and patience.) > > Dav Vandenbroucke > Economist > U.S. Dept. HUD > david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov It isn't such a great price. HUD Economists really ought to study a bit of economics (though I realize Economists don't set Economic policy -- that's done by elected and appointed officials who wouldn't know economics even when it bites them in the ass). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 27 12:18:19 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: ePay Message-ID: <199810271658.RAA08379@marina.fth.sbs.de> > It isn't such a great price. HUD Economists really ought to study a > bit of economics (though I realize Economists don't set Economic > policy -- that's done by elected and appointed officials who wouldn't > know economics even when it bites them in the ass). Hey, whats this for a new kind of tecnology ? 'Elected officials' that are bitten by economy ? Get real, they have our taxes to avoide any complication with reality! They are so deeply pampered, they wouldn't even notice it if their campain manager wouldn't tell them that there is a thing calld bad economic situation. We had now for more almost 20 years a fat (right of the middle) gouvernment that cared a lot about the economy - especialy their personal one. Gruss H. (Do I get a bonus point for enhanced off topic rage ?) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From aaron at wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 27 11:05:09 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Help with an Amiga... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981027090716.009ec620@texas.net> Message-ID: ---> Begin Website Plug <-- I have a bunch of Amiga 1000 pinouts on my brand-new, "classiccmp friendly" info site: http://www.prinsol.com/classiccmp/. Just browse through the pinouts directory and you should find what you need. ** I posted the URL a couple of weeks ago as just www.prinsol.com/pinouts/ - but I wanted to add other types of hardware interface materials (conversions/hacks/etc) so I reorganised a bit. Sorry for any inconvenience... ---> End Website Plug <--- Also, some files you will want to take a peek at are in the "hacks" directory there...I have been working on the site and haven't gotten to this part yet, but I dug out the Amiga-related ones for you and posted them. It includes the AT keyboard hack, the PC serial mouse hack, and the Amiga RGB to PC VGA hack. Let me know if any of this is helpful! Aaron On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Hey, I picked up an old Amiga 1000 yesterday without a keyboard, mouse or > monitor. > > Can anyone point me to an Amiga 1000, 2000 or 3000 source or technical > information on these keyboards so I can wire one up myself. > > Any information on useable monitors or mice? From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 27 11:09:35 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay) In-Reply-To: <19981027100059.4186.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 27 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > Sam wrote: > > But I ended up getting a visit from my friendly > > neighborhood police. It seems some local concerned citizen saw me pulling > > out all sorts of computer gear from the trash and decided something evil > > was being perpetrated. Go figure. > > What did the police have to say about it? They were cool enough. By that time I was up in my office getting a few items out of my desk (it was about 6pm). They came up and knocked on the door. I just showed them my ID and a business card and they took a report. A pain in the ass. > At what point does the contents of the dumpster become publicly available? > I imagine that this might be a different point than the one at which police > are aloud to search for evidence, but IANAL. There's been a court decision that has emphatically stated that once it goes in the garbage, and the garbage is publicly accessible (ie. you can't go onto private property) its up for grabs. Local laws may differ, so its always worth knowing what the laws are in your area before you decide to go scrounging in the trash. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 27 11:15:15 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Athanasios Kotsenos wrote: > >I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found > >that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot > >checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. > thats what headings r 4 That would be true if people used headers appropriately. As it is they are basically ignored and more often than not messages are replied to without editing the header. So you sometimes end up with good, on-topic conversations springing up out of off-topic crap, but those who are going by the headers don't know and thus miss out. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From ai705 at osfn.org Tue Oct 27 11:13:35 1998 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: <199810271302.OAA24171@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > > I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found > > that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot > > checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. > > Reading just the headers is missleading - very missleading. > I did it sometimes, especialy when they where talking about > DEC stuff, where I have no personal link, even no information > about, and before I even realized I passed some _very_ interesting > themes - nobody can reflect complex things in just a header. > I've learned my lesson - now I peek at least inside _every_ > message. > Agreed! This is the only list I do not receive as a digest and prefer to receive as individual messages. Serendipity is a powerful factor when you hang with bright people. I always look at each message even if it turns out my interest is some peripheral aspect. This list is well above average in all respects, however, like all lists, a percentage of the noise would abate if people took the time to target the quotes and only use material relevant to that specific post. Like I did with this one, with 80 or so % of the quoted verbiage deleted. (And Hans did previously) It isn't a major problem, but everybody can do their part to help. -- Stephen Dauphin PS, Didn't realize I'd need a disclaimer. No connection with the company, no connection with any geographic location. Just an uncommon French name by way of French Canada. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Oct 27 07:12:07 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Help with an Amiga... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981027090716.009ec620@texas.net> References: <199810270314.WAA15929@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199810271716.MAA13592@smtp.interlog.com> On 27 Oct 98 at 9:07, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Hey, I picked up an old Amiga 1000 yesterday without a keyboard, mouse or > monitor. > > Can anyone point me to an Amiga 1000, 2000 or 3000 source or technical > information on these keyboards so I can wire one up myself. > > Any information on useable monitors or mice? > > > Arfon A lot of info is available. There's a FAQ posted regularly on comp.sys.amiga.introduction. Also plug into the Aminet. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 27 12:31:29 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model II stuff! References: <3.0.3.32.19981023103350.0092ba90@texas.net> <363049F3.EA8E827D@cnct.com> <3.0.3.32.19981027090342.009b26a0@texas.net> Message-ID: <36361181.52109FC3@cnct.com> Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > > Okay, > For anyone interested (Larry).... I am going home (to Virginia) for > thanksgiving and I will pull out one of my model IIs and get all of the > still useable software and manuals. I will make copies available to > anyone who wants if someone can tell me how to copy the 8" discs to a file > on a PC (either using Linux or Dos). > > I can serial port the machines togethet but, I have no idea how to read > off all the sectors of the 8 inches. A Model II is set up for 256-byte sectors, a "straight" copy may not be the optimum solution -- a few interim steps may be necessary. I have a Model II (and expansion drives -- no HD aside from the one in the Tandy 6000 which I won't risk) but the guy who was setting it out at the curb had already dumped all software. So I need some bootable OS disks (these are _any_ Tandy applications -- they were _all_ bootable, though Scripsit was short several utilities to make more room for the document file). It might take me an hour or two of self hypnosis, but I used to be able to do sector copies of Model II disks from BASIC to move the salvageable bits to another disk or to files of various formats on other disks. With a few of my Linux tools, I may even be able to make images on modern media, though I'm unclear as to how to translate 77-track x 34 (256byte) sector media to 80-track x 18 (512byte) sector media. I know it will fit fine -- whether it can be used directly if an adapter is made to connect the new drives to the old hardware I don't know -- and track 0 was single density IIRC, the boot ROM might be sticky. I really wish I had my old collection of Model II media -- I never realized that small loss in moving cross-country would hurt so much years later. By the way Arfon, how many generations back do we have to go to find out where our family names diverged in Wales? -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From jruschme at exit109.com Tue Oct 27 11:27:31 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Y2K and immortal executables In-Reply-To: <199810231939.PAA03642@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@pop.cgocable.net" at "Oct 23, 98 03:44:16 pm" Message-ID: <199810271727.MAA16275@crobin.home.org> > > The root cause has been traced to unbuffered real-time clock chips. On > > a system with such a chip, the BIOS may attempt to read some data during > > a time when it is being updated and during which a flag value is present, > > instead of a real date. It only seems to occur post-1/1/2000 because the > > longer code path taken to calculate the Y2K date may take longer than the > > grace period the clock chip provides prior to an update. > > > > Messy stuff... > > Yeah! Y2K is messy! Is that unbuffered part is because of low > quality and cost cutting condition? What can I identify that by look > on boards or by software? > Jason, I'll defer to a couple of URLs as I'm still trying to understand this all myself... How TD Occurs on Personal Computers: http://www.nethawk.com/~jcrouch/second.htm My main TD web wite: http://www.nethawk.com/~jcrouch/dilation.htm Mike Echlin's main TD web site: http://www.intranet.ca/~mike.echlin/bestif/index.htm And for people who missed the beginning of all this last August: http://www.nethawk.com/~jcrouch/td01.txt <<>> From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 27 12:37:17 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) References: Message-ID: <363612DD.5C5F8102@cnct.com> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote: > > > We disagree here, as I still think it is a lot of fun. As far as the chance > > of ending up with it, it is exactly what you are willing to pay for it. > > Like that guy who just bought the 1200XL on eBay for $600... Evolution works. Depending on his age, either his parents or his wife will kill him, a drop of chlorine in the gene pool. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 27 12:55:27 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) Message-ID: <199810271735.SAA00155@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> We disagree here, as I still think it is a lot of fun. As far as the chance >>> of ending up with it, it is exactly what you are willing to pay for it. >> Like that guy who just bought the 1200XL on eBay for $600... > Evolution works. Depending on his age, either his parents or his > wife will kill him, a drop of chlorine in the gene pool. Maybe we could get a life transmission ? After all, its a real internet thing in the internet age, by internet stupidity. :) H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 27 11:40:44 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) In-Reply-To: <3635F0C0.3944483E@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote: > (i.e. the IBM TPC I just got), I do not agree with taking advantage of > peoples ignorance about what something might be worth, especially if I am > out soliciting computers. Running into them on ads or at swap meets does > not constitute taking advantage :)! Well, I take exception to this. What constitutes "taking advantage of"? I can maybe moralize that if I was buying computers to turn around and sell on eBay, but I'm not. I'm adding them to my collection. So it is in my best interest to get the best price possible. Also, its relative. Since I am of the opinion that eBay does not constitute fair market value, what advantage am I taking? And what obligation do I have to tell the ignorant seller about my hard won knowledge on collecting computers? How much do I have to tell them? What if I tell them there's a market for what they have, then what? Do I have to go into a whole discussion about how they could log on to this place called eBay, list their item, wait 7 days and then they're rich? What if the seller doesn't even have an internet connection? What if they do end up selling it to someone else for more than I would have paid? Shouldn't I be entitled to a consulting fee for pushing them in the direction to make more money? Don't get me wrong, I still feel a little guilty when I get something REALLY good for a song that I may have had to pay a testicle for on eBay. But then again, to me these computers have no monetary value, just historic. I come up with a price that the seller thinks is fair. I'm happy, their happy, and more more computer is saved. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 27 12:45:55 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay) References: Message-ID: <363614E3.FA310F65@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > There's been a court decision that has emphatically stated that once it > goes in the garbage, and the garbage is publicly accessible (ie. you can't > go onto private property) its up for grabs. Local laws may differ, so its > always worth knowing what the laws are in your area before you decide to > go scrounging in the trash. Yah. Definitely. Especially in municipalities with mandatory recycling near areas where recycables can bring a decent price. (The Bay Area was lousy with them last time I lived there). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 27 13:02:08 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) Message-ID: <199810271742.SAA17211@marina.fth.sbs.de> > > > We disagree here, as I still think it is a lot of fun. As far as the chance > > > of ending up with it, it is exactly what you are willing to pay for it. > > Like that guy who just bought the 1200XL on eBay for $600... > Evolution works. Depending on his age, either his parents or his > wife will kill him, a drop of chlorine in the gene pool. BTW, has anybody still the URL ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Oct 27 13:02:08 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: ebay Message-ID: <199810271742.SAA17265@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> 1. Bid more than anybody else through proxy bidding. This way when >>> somebody else bids, the system will bid you up (to your max) automatically >>> when someone else bids. If you want it bad enough, you can get it, but >>> it may cost you. >> Jep, but to be shure, it has to be high, real high :( > As high as $12,000? Only to have someone bid $12,100? Hey, if somebody outbids me that way on a KIM-1 - Gee, best wishes to the seller :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ecloud at goodnet.com Tue Oct 27 11:56:14 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Dolphin (was Re: ebay) In-Reply-To: <9810279094.AA909498798@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> from "david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov" at Oct 27, 98 09:41:21 am Message-ID: <199810271756.KAA16307@goodnet.com> > >Dauphin ? You're not talkin about the Dolphin ? > >A kit system from the late 70's from Swizzerland ? > > No, I'm talking about the Dauphin DTR-1, a cute little 486-powered, > pen-and-keyboard-capable portable computer. The "DTR" stands for > "desktop replacement," which was overpromising a bit. As far as I > know, there was no "DTR-2." Yes, I have a DTR-1. It's a 486SLC25 with 6 megs RAM, built-in ethernet, modem, 40 meg 1.3" (!) hard drive, an RF-based pen (the pen emits RF and it is detected by crossing circuit board traces), and a PS/2 style keyboard. It all fits in a leather case about probably 7" x 10" x 3". The machine itself without the keyboard is a bit bigger than a Newton. It shipped with Windows for Pen 1.0 (based on Windows 3.1) which has the ability to do handwriting recognition into any widget which accepts text. You can also use the pen as a mouse. The drawbacks are slow booting, small hard drive (Stacker is a must), and terrible battery life (2 hours in theory, in my experience, you're lucky to get 20 minutes; I suspect the charger in mine isn't charging long enough.) It doesn't get a lot of use mainly because of the battery life; but there is a cute little AC adapter and it will run off 12 volts as well. If anybody is lusting after one of these gadgets I'd trade mine for a Newton 2000 or something similarly useful. Yes, there was a DTR-2; I believe it added color, sound and maybe a faster 486, I forget. Their latest one is called the Orasis and has a P133, and a rather astronomical price. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * ham radio * VRML * Java * freedom of information * virtual reality * From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 27 11:55:00 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model II stuff! Message-ID: <981027125500.22200432@trailing-edge.com> > With a few of my Linux >tools, I may even be able to make images on modern media, though I'm >unclear as to how to translate 77-track x 34 (256byte) sector media >to 80-track x 18 (512byte) sector media. I know it will fit fine -- >whether it can be used directly if an adapter is made to connect the >new drives to the old hardware I don't know Again, this is well discussed in Q16 ("Can I use the newer floppy drives on my old machine?") of the CP/M FAQ. See http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/CPM-faq/faq.html >-- and track 0 was single >density IIRC, the boot ROM might be sticky. And there are several tools - most notably Teledisk - which can handle split-density floppies. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com Tue Oct 27 11:53:27 1998 From: MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model II stuff! Message-ID: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5DC9@NTS_EXCH> Speaking of which, I have a complete Model II in storage; anyone interested? > -----Original Message----- > From: Arfon Gryffydd [SMTP:ArfonRG@DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net] > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 9:04 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: TRS-80 Model II stuff! > > Okay, > For anyone interested (Larry).... I am going home (to Virginia) for > thanksgiving and I will pull out one of my model IIs and get all of the > still useable software and manuals. I will make copies available to > anyone who wants if someone can tell me how to copy the 8" discs to a file > on a PC (either using Linux or Dos). > > I can serial port the machines togethet but, I have no idea how to > read > off all the sectors of the 8 inches. > > Arfon > > "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build > bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce > bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 27 12:21:00 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: ebay In-Reply-To: <199810271742.SAA17265@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Oct 27, 98 07:03:08 pm Message-ID: <199810271821.LAA12992@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 592 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981027/44a6a1fd/attachment.ksh From van at wired.com Tue Oct 27 12:21:52 1998 From: van at wired.com (Van Burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you so much for these enlightening gemz of wisdom. >yes it does > >thats what headings r 4 > >good 4 u Although I usually don't mind the occasional off-topic post, I certainly must agree that the bulk of the CLASSICCMP messages I have downloaded over the past two weeks have been relentlessly useless. As a result, I have been struggling with the necessity of unsubscribing to the list. Why? Because I simply don't have the time to filter through all the crap. The return just doesn't justify the effort anymore. One of the big problems in my opinion is the fact that individuals will consistently submit multiple posts...one day, I believe Hans had NINE consecutive posts! Is this absolutely necessary? When the Velvet Rope was still a mail list, there was a very strict rule regarding multiple posts. The point is that you should think about what you are going to say, consolidate your thoughts, and ease everyones download. It is a good rule and I think it should be adopted here. If you want to talk about classic computing items posted to eBay, fine. Z-80? That is absolutely on-topic. But, if you want to engage in a seemingly endless public debate on the merits of the modern educational system...I'm sorry. That simply is _not_ appropriate. Either is gunsmithing, lathe building, snipers, or Star Trek theory. When this list is functioning as it should, I find it to be an incredible resource. I only hope it can continue to be that. Perhaps it is time to elect a moderator... xoxo van ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === BNL |- - - - Phase Shifter - - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.8424 Trans- ] ]]] (A) futura lounge 415.647.4523 (B) ? (C) SELECT GAME mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com designer wired digital 660 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 usa ........................................................................ van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Tue Oct 27 12:29:19 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model II stuff! (And Welsh stuff for Ward) In-Reply-To: <36361181.52109FC3@cnct.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19981023103350.0092ba90@texas.net> <363049F3.EA8E827D@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981027122919.00a0cd70@texas.net> Ward Griffiths wrote: Blah blah blah... >So I need some bootable >OS disks (these are _any_ Tandy applications -- they were _all_ >bootable, though Scripsit was short several utilities to make more >room for the document file). I have multiple copies of Model II system discs... Problem is "are they still any good"? I'll make you any copies of my software that you want if any of it is still good (can you spare any 8" discs?). I'm guessing that it's mostly trashed now. sigh. >By the way Arfon, how many generations back do we have to go to find >out where our family names diverged in Wales? Ward, You surprised me with your catch that our names are the same. Most people of Welsh descent don't know that they are Welsh and wouldn't know that our names are the same. Unfortunately, we are most likely not related because the Surname concept was introduced into britain by the Norman French. Up until late in the Britain's history, the Celtic peoples were still using "Name son of Name" so Gryffydd (Griffith/Griffiths/Gryffith/Gryffyth), Evans, Howell, & etc. were all 'first' names. (Note: in Welsh, "Son Of" is "Ap" so I would be Arfon Ap Arfon). I can tell you this, half of my Welsh families comes from the Caernarfon/Bangor area and the other half comes from Southern Wales. Arfon "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 27 12:52:23 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: DOS disks? Message-ID: <199810271852.LAA13158@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 929 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981027/5bc13fcc/attachment.ksh From Marty at itgonline.com Tue Oct 27 12:56:38 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: DOS disks? Message-ID: <1998Oct27.135540.1767.152902@smtp.itgonline.com> Any PC (IBM) or MS-DOS as far as I know, although I'd try MS-DOS 3.2 or 3.3.... ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: DOS disks? Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/27/98 1:51 PM Weeeeeeeell, I landed a Data General One laptop. Normally I eschew MS-DOS based machines, simply because I'm a racist pig etc., but this one has an interesting notebook mode and a built-in terminal program at 1200bps. Except that the screen is harder to read than James Joyce, it seems like a winner and it works great. Question. Anyone know what version of DOS this uses? Does someone have any boot disks out there, or at least have the system files available for download? The drives are 3.5" DD, right? Thanks much, -- -------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database Programmer Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 -- TRUE HEADLINE: Police To Begin Campaign To Run Down Jaywalkers ------------- ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct27.135124.1767.73039; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:51:25 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id KAA18163; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:49:02 -0800 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id KAA15072 for ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:48:57 -0800 Received: from oa.ptloma.edu (oa.ptloma.edu [192.147.249.102]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id KAA06 884 for ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:47:47 -0800 Received: (from ckaiser@localhost) by oa.ptloma.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA13158 for classiccmp@u.washington.edu; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:52:23 -0700 Message-Id: <199810271852.LAA13158@oa.ptloma.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:52:23 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Cameron Kaiser To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: DOS disks? Content-Type: text X-Sender: ckaiser@ptloma.edu X-Sender: ckaiser@ptloma.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From marvin at rain.org Tue Oct 27 13:16:38 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) References: Message-ID: <36361C16.755829D2@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote: > > > (i.e. the IBM TPC I just got), I do not agree with taking advantage of > > peoples ignorance about what something might be worth, especially if I am > > out soliciting computers. Running into them on ads or at swap meets does > > not constitute taking advantage :)! > > Well, I take exception to this. What constitutes "taking advantage of"? > I can maybe moralize that if I was buying computers to turn around and > sell on eBay, but I'm not. I'm adding them to my collection. So it is in > my best interest to get the best price possible. I fully agree about getting the best price, but I have found when I inform donors of what the value of the computers might be (and most of the time they *do* ask), they go ahead and give me the stuff anyway. Additionally, when they find other stuff I might be interested, they take the time to let me know. > Also, its relative. Since I am of the opinion that eBay does not > constitute fair market value, what advantage am I taking? We will just have to agree to disagree. I have talked to quite a few ebay buyers and sellers, and almost everyone agrees that the pricing there is fair to both buyer and seller. A friend of mine I talked to last week buys there and feels that he is getting some real bargains. All a matter of perspective. > And what obligation do I have to tell the ignorant seller about my hard > won knowledge on collecting computers? How much do I have to tell them? I guess it is just a matter of priorities or goals. I should say again that I am talking about people who have sought me out and are *giving* me computer stuff. When I see the stuff for sale, the rules change and I generally don't attempt to educate them. > Don't get me wrong, I still feel a little guilty when I get something > REALLY good for a song that I may have had to pay a testicle for on eBay. ebay has had some real bargains. Remember the Altairs that sold for about $500 and $700 some time ago? Most of the people I deal with I look at as friends. And I try hard not to take advantage of friends ... unless I tell them I am taking advantage of them :). From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 27 14:07:15 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: <1998Oct27.135540.1767.152902@smtp.itgonline.com> from "Marty" at Oct 27, 98 01:56:38 pm Message-ID: <199810272007.NAA08332@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 629 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981027/d94164e3/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 27 15:31:05 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: DOS disks? References: <199810271852.LAA13158@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <36363B99.1E4E9A76@cnct.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Weeeeeeeell, I landed a Data General One laptop. Normally I eschew MS-DOS > based machines, simply because I'm a racist pig etc., but this one has an > interesting notebook mode and a built-in terminal program at 1200bps. Except > that the screen is harder to read than James Joyce, it seems like a winner > and it works great. > > Question. Anyone know what version of DOS this uses? Does someone have any > boot disks out there, or at least have the system files available for > download? The drives are 3.5" DD, right? Came as I recall with MS-DOS 2.11, should use anything up to 6.22, though of course it's tricky building a 720k 6.22.system disk. 3.3 is probably your best bet, although I think there were some hardware specific utilities on the original material that might come in rather handy. Nice machine -- the only DOS laptop to tempt me prior to the Zenith SuperSports. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Oct 27 14:34:15 1998 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 576 In-Reply-To: <199810270802.AAA00237@lists5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Tim wrote: >Hint for those who haven't done much dumpster diving: back your car >or truck up to the dumpster, climb into the dumpster via your rear >bumper, and start tossing :-). In addition to giving you an easier climb, that also blocks the dumpster so that the trash truck can't get to it. Y'all be *careful* out there. I do *not* want to read about a compacted classic computer collector with his compacted hands clenched around a compacted Altair. Or even a Rainbow. - Mark From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Oct 27 14:41:28 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: <36363B99.1E4E9A76@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Oct 27, 1998 04:31:05 PM Message-ID: <199810272041.NAA24258@calico.litterbox.com> Personally I'd go with caldera DR.DOS. It's free, more or less. A pain in the tuckas to go from their distribution to 720k floppies unless you have a DOS box with a hard disk you're not using. Still, it's very nifty and works great on my Amstrad ppc640. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 27 14:44:18 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: <199810272041.NAA24258@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Oct 27, 98 01:41:28 pm Message-ID: <199810272044.NAA08390@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 779 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981027/6fd812a5/attachment.ksh From MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com Tue Oct 27 14:36:48 1998 From: MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Replying to people (was TRS-80 model II) Message-ID: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5DCC@NTS_EXCH> Just a note to people: when you e-mail someone directly; don't use an email-address that has something like "your name " in it. Using Microsoft Outlook (which I do), it just shows with the SMTP portion hidden. After the mail bounces, I'm less inclined to type the whole message again and edit your user name. So that reply to you offering to sell you the complete Altair for $50.... well, you didn't get it. I mean, it's a direct e-mail, not the mailing list. If you think I am going to spam you... come on. Ok, now that, I've jumped all over Arfon, I have to say it's nothing personal and I apologize in advance. it's just not the first time that it's happened. it's just that I don't even see anything until the mail bounces. -Matt Pritchard From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 27 15:52:02 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: DOS disks? References: <199810272041.NAA24258@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <36364082.59C9EF7D@cnct.com> Jim Strickland wrote: > > Personally I'd go with caldera DR.DOS. It's free, more or less. A pain in > the tuckas to go from their distribution to 720k floppies unless you have > a DOS box with a hard disk you're not using. Still, it's very nifty and > works great on my Amstrad ppc640. That'd work on a DG-1 as well, probably. And what need for a DOS box? DR-DOS is what comes up when I run dosemu under Linux. Should be little sweat to make 720k floppies, the challenge is figuring which utilities etc. to put on the boot disk. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Tue Oct 27 14:57:45 1998 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> thats what headings r 4 >That would be true if people used headers appropriately. well thats what i meant in the first place (in reply to van's sarcasm as well) i dont find it necessary to go on and on along with 20 other people in reply to a message that was totally inappropriate sure multiple postings get annoying like hans for example (no offense man) with replies to everything ppl should also try to cut down the messages and not send the whole 4k to reply in a line (and those damn signatures) but the list needs to be alive if u feel u must moderate well then go ahead but it will probably be a loss if u feel the need to unsuscribe feel free to these things have all been said b4 who knows how many times in every mailing list that exists even breaking the lists in two - on and off topic so that ppl with common interests can also talk about other things (like experiences) both lists would die though have fun everybody nasos From gene at ehrich.com Tue Oct 27 15:01:39 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: <1998Oct27.135540.1767.152902@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <199810272059.MAA27672@mxu4.u.washington.edu> At 01:56 PM 10/27/98 -0500, you wrote: > Any PC (IBM) or MS-DOS as far as I know, although I'd try MS-DOS 3.2 > or 3.3.... If you cant find it for free any place. I have 3.3 for sale on my web site at http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Gene Gene Ehrich From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Oct 27 15:05:38 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: <199810272044.NAA08390@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Oct 27, 1998 12:44:18 PM Message-ID: <199810272105.OAA24377@calico.litterbox.com> Yup. ftp://ftp.caldera.com/pub/drdos Now they DO want 29 bucks (US) for it after your 90 day evaluation period is up, if you're not a student, teacher, or other "non profit" organization, but it's not got any built in self terminating stupidity that I've found, so that's between you and your sense of morals. Personally, if I find myself using shareware often enough to feel guilty for not paying for it, I pay for it. :) If I don't, I don't. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From gene at ehrich.com Tue Oct 27 15:04:45 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Help with an Amiga... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981027090716.009ec620@texas.net> References: <199810270314.WAA15929@smtp.interlog.com> <3.0.3.32.19981023103350.0092ba90@texas.net> Message-ID: <199810272102.NAA26637@mxu2.u.washington.edu> At 09:07 AM 10/27/98 -0600, you wrote: >Hey, I picked up an old Amiga 1000 yesterday without a keyboard, mouse or >monitor. > >Can anyone point me to an Amiga 1000, 2000 or 3000 source or technical >information on these keyboards so I can wire one up myself. > http://www.voicenet.com/~generic/amiga4.html gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 27 15:09:44 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: <199810272105.OAA24377@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Oct 27, 98 02:05:38 pm Message-ID: <199810272109.OAA12166@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 952 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981027/9db6f1cf/attachment.ksh From gene at ehrich.com Tue Oct 27 15:07:41 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Riddles & old stuff for sale In-Reply-To: <199810270159.UAA26526@crobin.home.org> References: <199810242122.OAA16197@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199810272105.NAA29016@mxu3.u.washington.edu> At 08:59 PM 10/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >> Take a look at my web site when you get a chance. >> >> Lots of older things for sale plus some VERY INTERESTING riddles. >> >> http://www.voicenet.com/~generic >> gene@ehrich > >Gene, > >Hi! Glad to see your up and about... Thanx, coming along slowly > >I was looking at your page and wondering about the Compaq 386 portable... >Do you still have it? If so, how much memory does it have and how much >would you be looking for for it (your page just says best offer)? I have a deal, $80 plus shipping but hasn't completed yet. > >Thanks... ><> > gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Oct 27 15:24:41 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: DOS disks? Message-ID: i'd use mess-dos 5 myself. help files, and a workable editor makes it worth it but still small enough to run from floppy. In a message dated 98-10-27 13:58:09 EST, you write: << Weeeeeeeell, I landed a Data General One laptop. Normally I eschew MS-DOS based machines, simply because I'm a racist pig etc., but this one has an interesting notebook mode and a built-in terminal program at 1200bps. Except that the screen is harder to read than James Joyce, it seems like a winner and it works great. Question. Anyone know what version of DOS this uses? Does someone have any boot disks out there, or at least have the system files available for download? The drives are 3.5" DD, right? Thanks much, >> From gram at cnct.com Tue Oct 27 16:29:58 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening References: Message-ID: <36364966.405958D9@cnct.com> Athanasios Kotsenos wrote: > > >> thats what headings r 4 > >That would be true if people used headers appropriately. > well thats what i meant in the first place (in reply to van's sarcasm as well) > i dont find it necessary to go on and on along with 20 other people in > reply to a message that was totally inappropriate > sure multiple postings get annoying > like hans for example (no offense man) with replies to everything > ppl should also try to cut down the messages and not send the whole 4k to > reply in a line (and those damn signatures) > but the list needs to be alive > if u feel u must moderate well then go ahead but it will probably be a loss > if u feel the need to unsuscribe feel free to > these things have all been said b4 who knows how many times in every > mailing list that exists > even breaking the lists in two - on and off topic > so that ppl with common interests can also talk about other things (like > experiences) > both lists would die though > have fun everybody > nasos Not desiring to continue the thread, but: This is not IRC, it is a mailing list. There is no need to use the silly little abbreviations designed to "speed up" on-line chat and the typing of same. Use English or as close an approximation as you can. Capital letters help as well as punctuation -- a carriage return is not expected to be the end of a sentence, especially when the next line starts in lower case. My best estimate is that the quoted message took me at least three times as long to parse as it should have. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From bill_r at inetnebr.com Tue Oct 27 15:40:49 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Message-ID: <199810272138.PAA08763@falcon.inetnebr.com> Coming from someone with a 24-line signature, ragging other people about appropriate mailing list behavior strikes me as just a bit hypocritical. Every time 1 or 2 people make noise about "noise" on the list, Sam jumps on his "This list needs a moderator and I'm the man for the job" soapbox and everybody grumbles about leaving until he settles down; I don't really see the point. Judging by the relatively small number of complaints, I'd have to guess that most of the users (myself included) don't have a problem with the way the list is operating. I typically read the mail from this list in batches, as I have time; I use Forte Agent, and have a rule set up to sort messages from "classiccmp@u.washington.edu" into a seperate folder, just like I do the other mailing lists I'm on. That way, I don't have to wade through list messages to find my personal e-mail. I guess I'm with Max - if you want an encyclopedia, get one. I prefer to deal with my on-line friends and neighbors as whole people, not chopped up according to arbitrary criteria and stuffed into neat little pigeonholes just to keep a few anal-retentive people happy... > >If you want to talk about classic computing items posted to eBay, fine. >Z-80? That is absolutely on-topic. But, if you want to engage in a >seemingly endless public debate on the merits of the modern educational >system...I'm sorry. That simply is _not_ appropriate. Either is >gunsmithing, lathe building, snipers, or Star Trek theory. > >When this list is functioning as it should, I find it to be an incredible >resource. I only hope it can continue to be that. Perhaps it is time to >elect a moderator... > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 27 16:02:34 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: <199810272109.OAA12166@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Oct 27, 98 01:09:44 pm Message-ID: <199810272202.PAA12826@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 570 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981027/8ef6f595/attachment.ksh From ai705 at osfn.org Tue Oct 27 15:59:36 1998 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: <36364966.405958D9@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Athanasios Kotsenos wrote: > > even breaking the lists in two - on and off topic > > so that ppl with common interests can also talk about other things (like > > experiences) > > both lists would die though I actually had a similar thought and it could work. Is it possible to create an off-topic mailing list that is not publicly advertised and cannot be subscribed to unless one were already a subscriber to the on-topic one? Those that want the on-topic list could get that, those who want both would get both and no one could subscribe to only the off-topic one. The unwritten rule is that no new topic could be spontaneously generated on the off-topic one and the only new threads allowable would be those banished from the on-topic list. Of course threads would be allowed to meander and mutate once they were released to the off-topic list. This is just a thought. It certainly would allow for these brief hot torrents of opinion on semi off-topic material to run their course without inconveniencing those who wish to only see hardcore tech info. The off-topic list would be like a sidebar only accessible to those who read the on-topic one. > Ward Griffiths response: > This is not IRC, it is a mailing list. There is no need to use the > silly little abbreviations designed to "speed up" on-line chat and > the typing of same. Use English or as close an approximation as you > can. Capital letters help as well as punctuation -- a carriage return I too prefer to see some adherence to convention, instead of the "barefoot in the head"-type prose in the first quote. However, I note Ward uses a double space between the end of one sentence and the beginning of another and I believe this is considered to be an archaic convention in the word processing age. So we all have our own peculiarities and I am not sure I want to hop on anyone for grammar or punctuation. Hey---just kidding around!! There are times this list seriously lacks any sense of humor. -- Stephen Dauphin From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Oct 27 16:19:00 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: <199810272202.PAA12826@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Oct 27, 1998 02:02:34 PM Message-ID: <199810272219.PAA24770@calico.litterbox.com> Cool. :) Did you have to make your boot floppy via a hard disk machine? If not, how did you go about it? > 'Tis working, running DR-DOS 7.02. Of course, HIMEM.SYS wasn't really > necessary. ;-) > > -- > -------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database Programmer > Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 > ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 > -- Do you think I could buy back my introduction to you? -- Groucho Marx ------ > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 27 13:15:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: I hit the jackpot - if I can store the stuff In-Reply-To: <199810270322.AA11633@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Oct 26, 98 10:22:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1177 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981027/34826634/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 27 13:11:43 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) In-Reply-To: <19981026181552.209d9cf8.in@mail.pressstart.com> from "Doug Coward" at Oct 26, 98 06:35:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1920 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981027/c642f9f4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 27 15:05:08 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) In-Reply-To: <199810271228.NAA16535@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Oct 27, 98 01:49:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 664 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981027/23cde224/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 27 13:00:53 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <01be0143$39bbd400$f17d38cb@help-desk> from "Computer Room Internet Cafe" at Oct 27, 98 11:16:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1031 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981027/77b8dbdf/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Oct 27 16:20:54 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Commodore 128D Message-ID: <19981027222056.2503.qmail@hotmail.com> The voltages of the wires going from PSU to the motherboard. > >::Well, it's been about two months, and I still haven't started on the >::C128D that Hans gave me (sorry, Hans!). Could someone please post >::the PSU pinouts for it (this is the one with an internal PSU)? > >PSU pinouts? How do you mean, exactly? My DCR has an integrated power supply >(later model 128D, metallic case, single board; the D series have a two >board setup, one for the 1571 and the other for the system, plastic case). > >-- >-------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- >Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database Programmer >Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 >ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 >-- My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I'm still right. ------- > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 27 15:15:59 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:44 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: from "Van Burnham" at Oct 27, 98 10:21:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1211 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981027/bacc2b97/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 27 15:07:08 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Help with an Amiga... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981027090716.009ec620@texas.net> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Oct 27, 98 09:07:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 269 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981027/ded1341e/attachment.ksh From dcoward at pressstart.com Tue Oct 27 17:07:04 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Road trip/vintage sources Message-ID: <19981027144759.2505d0a1.in@mail.pressstart.com> Tim said: >One decent source in the area is the Terrapin Trader, the University >of Maryland's surplus outlet in College Park. For more info, see > > http://www.inform.umd.edu/PURCHASE/terptrad/ > Thanks Tim. Speaking of road trips: Next month I going to take my two weeks vacation to retrieve our belongings from storage in Manassas Virginia, where we left them 11 years ago. I'm excited to be finally getting my two analog computers out here to California. Anyway, we will be driving back to California from Nov 14-22. I'm hoping to stop at a few places on the way back, looking for (real old) computer stuff. We already plan to stop in Pennslyvania,Ohio - Lima and Aurora, Michigan - Benton Harbor and Ann Arbor,Chicago,St. Louis,and New Mexico - Albuquerque. If anyone knows of good places to look, and want to share the secret, let me know. What kind of places? Places that dark and dirty. Places with junk arranged in piles. Places with vacuum tube equipment. (I would love to find an example of a vacuum tube analog computer) Places you won't want your kids to play in. On another note: Does anyone in Florida have more information about the plans to tear down the original control room at the Kennedy Space Center? (It was on the news) ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 27 17:04:36 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: <36363B99.1E4E9A76@cnct.com> (message from Ward Donald Griffiths III on Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:31:05 -0500) References: <199810271852.LAA13158@oa.ptloma.edu> <36363B99.1E4E9A76@cnct.com> Message-ID: <19981027230436.9096.qmail@brouhaha.com> > though of course it's tricky building a 720k 6.22.system disk. Not particularly. Stick a 3.5 inch double-density (not high-density) disk into a standard PC 3.5 inch drive, and say "format b: /s /f:720". Unlike 5.25 inch drives, where there are interchange problems with 360K disks written in 1.2M drives, high-density 3.5 inch drives can write 720K format with no problems. This is because both the 720K and 1.44M formats use the same track pitch and track width. From bill at chipware.com Tue Oct 27 17:17:59 1998 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Road trip/vintage sources In-Reply-To: <19981027144759.2505d0a1.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <000801be0200$09b5af70$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Doug Coward wrote: > On another note: Does anyone in Florida have more information > about the plans to tear down the original control room at > the Kennedy Space Center? (It was on the news) Tear it down!! I saw on NASA TV a few weeks ago that it was going to be preserved as an historic landmark along with the old mission control Houston. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 27 17:18:58 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Road trip/vintage sources Message-ID: <981027181858.222003dc@trailing-edge.com> > What kind of places? Places that dark and dirty. Places with >junk arranged in piles. Places with vacuum tube equipment. >(I would love to find an example of a vacuum tube analog computer) Be sure to hit C&H Surplus on Colorado Blvd in Pasadena, All Electronics in Van Nuys, and APEX in San Fernando if you head through Southern California. >Places you won't want your kids to play in. There are parts of APEX that you need a hard-hat to enter :-). Tim. From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Oct 27 17:05:37 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: DOS disks? Message-ID: <199810272323.SAA06048@gate.usaor.net> I can GIVE you a copy of 3.2 for free. Just send me an email (personal), -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Gene Ehrich > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: DOS disks? > Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 4:01 PM > > At 01:56 PM 10/27/98 -0500, you wrote: > > Any PC (IBM) or MS-DOS as far as I know, although I'd try MS-DOS 3.2 > > or 3.3.... > > If you cant find it for free any place. > > I have 3.3 for sale on my web site at http://www.voicenet.com/~generic > > Gene > > Gene Ehrich From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 27 17:28:30 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: MS_DOS 2.11 (Was: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: <36363B99.1E4E9A76@cnct.com> Message-ID: MS-DOS 2.11 was a very special version. It was the one where Microsoft explicitly supported OEM modifications. Even the source code to IO.SYS was obtainable! Each manufacturer that had something weird could make their mods to it. For example: PC-DOS 3.20 was the first one to support 720K floppies. But LOTS of MS-DOS 2.11 variants support 720Ks. (NOT ALL WITH THE SAME DISK FORMAT!!) Or the manufacturer could modify IO.SYS so that pressing Ctrl+Alt+Meta+CokeBottle switches to power-saving "suspend mode", etc. Accordingly, 2.11 was usually tied to a given manufacturer. DG 2.11 was not quite the same as Gavilan 2.11, etc. Typically, MODE.COM would be heavily customized, and frequently IO.SYS would have a few differences. For example, Gavilan 2.00, 2.10 or 2.11 all supported 3.5" disks, but only 2.11 worked right. And 2.11K, 2.11L, etc. also supported double sided disks. If you CAN, try to find a copy of that 2.11 for your machine; the one modified by the hardware manufacturer to work with the weirdities of your hardware. If you choose to use one of the newer versions of DOS (6.2x is the most reliable for a couple of reasons), at least keep a copy available of the MODE.COM that was customized for your machine. You might need to use SETVER, or disassemble and look for the code that goes: MOV AH, 30h INT 21h CMP AX, Using the newer version of DOS MIGHT cut you off from some of the customizations, but hopefully MODE.COM may have most of the ones that you need, such as MODE LCD , etc. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > Weeeeeeeell, I landed a Data General One laptop. Normally I eschew MS-DOS > > based machines, simply because I'm a racist pig etc., but this one has an > > interesting notebook mode and a built-in terminal program at 1200bps. Except > > that the screen is harder to read than James Joyce, it seems like a winner > > and it works great. > > > > Question. Anyone know what version of DOS this uses? Does someone have any > > boot disks out there, or at least have the system files available for > > download? The drives are 3.5" DD, right? > > Came as I recall with MS-DOS 2.11, should use anything up to 6.22, > though of course it's tricky building a 720k 6.22.system disk. 3.3 > is probably your best bet, although I think there were some hardware > specific utilities on the original material that might come in rather > handy. Nice machine -- the only DOS laptop to tempt me prior to the > Zenith SuperSports. > -- > Ward Griffiths > > WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, > and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 27 18:06:27 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: <199810272219.PAA24770@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Oct 27, 98 03:19:00 pm Message-ID: <199810280006.RAA12276@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1751 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981027/9e6c3f1f/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Oct 27 18:28:10 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: MS_DOS 2.11 (Was: DOS disks? Message-ID: <19981028002811.9686.qmail@hotmail.com> Very interesting! I learn something new every day! But, was the source available to the public? If not, it's not much different from NT now, which makes source available under an NDA. >MS-DOS 2.11 was a very special version. It was the one where Microsoft >explicitly supported OEM modifications. Even the source code to IO.SYS >was obtainable! Each manufacturer that had something weird could make >their mods to it. For example: PC-DOS 3.20 was the first one to support >720K floppies. But LOTS of MS-DOS 2.11 variants support 720Ks. (NOT ALL >WITH THE SAME DISK FORMAT!!) Or the manufacturer could modify IO.SYS so >that pressing Ctrl+Alt+Meta+CokeBottle switches to power-saving "suspend >mode", etc. > >Accordingly, 2.11 was usually tied to a given manufacturer. DG 2.11 was >not quite the same as Gavilan 2.11, etc. Typically, MODE.COM would be >heavily customized, and frequently IO.SYS would have a few differences. >For example, Gavilan 2.00, 2.10 or 2.11 all supported 3.5" disks, but >only 2.11 worked right. And 2.11K, 2.11L, etc. also supported double >sided disks. > >If you CAN, try to find a copy of that 2.11 for your machine; the one >modified by the hardware manufacturer to work with the weirdities of your >hardware. If you choose to use one of the newer versions of DOS (6.2x is >the most reliable for a couple of reasons), at least keep a copy available >of the MODE.COM that was customized for your machine. You might need to >use SETVER, or disassemble and look for the code that goes: >MOV AH, 30h >INT 21h >CMP AX, > >Using the newer version of DOS MIGHT cut you off from some of the >customizations, but hopefully MODE.COM may have most of the ones that you >need, such as MODE LCD , etc. > >-- >Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com >XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com >2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 >Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > >On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > >> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > >> > Weeeeeeeell, I landed a Data General One laptop. Normally I eschew MS-DOS >> > based machines, simply because I'm a racist pig etc., but this one has an >> > interesting notebook mode and a built-in terminal program at 1200bps. Except >> > that the screen is harder to read than James Joyce, it seems like a winner >> > and it works great. >> > >> > Question. Anyone know what version of DOS this uses? Does someone have any >> > boot disks out there, or at least have the system files available for >> > download? The drives are 3.5" DD, right? >> >> Came as I recall with MS-DOS 2.11, should use anything up to 6.22, >> though of course it's tricky building a 720k 6.22.system disk. 3.3 >> is probably your best bet, although I think there were some hardware >> specific utilities on the original material that might come in rather >> handy. Nice machine -- the only DOS laptop to tempt me prior to the >> Zenith SuperSports. >> -- >> Ward Griffiths >> >> WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, >> and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 27 18:37:45 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: MS_DOS 2.11 (Was: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: <19981028002811.9686.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Very interesting! I learn something new every day! But, was the > source available to the public? If not, it's not much different from NT > now, which makes source available under an NDA. NOT to the public. But a lot looser than any other version of MS-DOS before or since, since basically they WANTED hardware manufacturers to be able to customize IO.SYS. Source for MSDOS.SYS and COMMAND.COM remained thoroughly unavailable. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Tue Oct 27 18:50:55 1998 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <01be020d$05483040$f17d38cb@help-desk> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 28 October 1998 9:55 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >> >>While I'm at it, AUI-10Base2(or t) transceivers are also getting rare, > >Odd.. Why on earth should those be rare? Or don't people use AUI ports any more. Short answer is no. They don't. Not around here anyway. Most network cards produced these days don't have AUI ports on them. Unfortunately all my big (and some smaller) Digital boxen only have an AUI on their ethernet adapters. >You _might_ be able to raid the 10 base T interface chip, or the >10 base 2 transceiver chip + isolated PSU + transformers off a PC >ethernet card, make a PCB, and build your own transceiver. A lot of cards >(at least the old cards I hack about with) use standard chips like the >83C92 (10 base 2) or 83C94 (10 base T). The data sheets for the chips >give the application circuits, and most of the bits can probably be >raided off old ethernet cards. If I get desperate enough. I have no shortage of 10Base2 + AUI 16 bit PC cards. I'm really gonna have to find a pinout for the AUI connectors. And how to connect them. I have found a source for new txcvrs in Adelaide (finally) but it's rather more than I had intended to pay, when a s/h one would do. > >If you can find some old 10 base 5 transceivers (thickwire), then by >changing the connector, they'll often work on 10 base 2 networks. It's >not 'official', but it seems to be OK. Probably, but they are pretty rare as well. IIRC, I think the difference is only in the signal level injected into the cable, it's somewhat lower for thick cable due to the lower loss of the RG8. Modern ethernet transceivers are rather more sensitive, so unless you had maxed out the distance to the full 180 meters or thereabouts, it should work just fine. Cheers Geoff Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au (My other home) From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Oct 27 15:11:04 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II stuff!) In-Reply-To: <981027110530.222003f4@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199810280115.UAA27868@smtp.interlog.com> On 27 Oct 98 at 11:05, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > For anyone interested (Larry).... I am going home (to Virginia) for > >thanksgiving and I will pull out one of my model IIs and get all of the > >still useable software and manuals. I will make copies available to > >anyone who wants if someone can tell me how to copy the 8" discs to a file > >on a PC (either using Linux or Dos). > > I can serial port the machines togethet but, I have no idea how to read > >off all the sectors of the 8 inches. > > This is a question that has been dealt with very thoroughly in the > past. > > Sydex (http://www.sydex.com/) has some very excellent software > available for dealing with "foreign" floppy formats, and can deal > with many (but not all) 8" floppy formats. Instead of going into > great detail on how to use these tools, I will instead just refer > you to the CP/M FAQ at > > http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/CPM-faq/faq.html > > specifically, Q14: "Can I read my 8" disks with my PC?" > > I hope nobody takes this reply as a brush-off as a result of > a good fraction of my business coming from reading old media, > including (but by no means limited to) 8" floppy disks. Even though > references to non-mailing-list resources seem to very sparse > on the CLASSICCMP mailing list, I just want folks to know that > there *are* very useful FAQ's out there that deal with the issue > thoroughly already. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 > 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 > Sure glad that wasn't a brush-off Tim. It's always simple to do something that you've done many times before. In rereading the CPM/faq I do see answers to some questions that I wasn't able to understand the import of before. TMK tho the Sydex programs ( and I've used 22disk and Rainbow ) only deal with CP/M and some non-Dos formats. While it does give instructions of how to build a cable even the faq mentions the difficulty of dealing with other formats. Understandable since it's a CP/M FAQ The TRS m.II uses CP/M but also TRSDOS and I also have the Xenix disks. With the resources available I will manage to transfer these to 5 1/4 disks at some point but it is not a trivial feat for many of us. Even Tim Mann who is writing a m.II addition to his Unix emulator xtrs was unable to answer many of my questions. Pete Turnbull and Tony provided some good info regarding this on classic comp but it is a problem that is in no way exhausted. For example I have a bunch of poems written by my son and other data that I want to get off 8'' disks from a Phillips Micom2000 word processor that I don't have a clue as to what format they were using. I'm sure many on the list have never dealt with this. Any informative tips are useful to all of us. While there are lots of resources out there it's not easy to sort through the vast volume of dross to get to the meat. Tim Mann directed me to a site that is quite helpful http://www.warez.com/home.htm (not a warez site) It has some programs that can transfer raw data. I hope nobody takes this as a flame. :^)) ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From aaron at wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 27 19:17:00 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <01be020d$05483040$f17d38cb@help-desk> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > I'm really gonna have to find a pinout for the AUI connectors. And how to > connect them. Pin Function ---------------- 1 control in circuit shield 2 control in circuit A 3 data out circuit A 4 data in circuit shield 5 data in circuit A 6 voltage common 7 ??? 8 control out circuit shield 9 control in circuit B 10 data out circuit B 11 data out circuit shield 12 data in circuit B 13 voltage + 14 voltage shield 15 ??? ....to the best of my knowledge, anyway... From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Oct 27 19:22:28 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <01be020d$05483040$f17d38cb@help-desk> from "Computer Room Internet Cafe" at Oct 28, 1998 11:20:55 AM Message-ID: <199810280122.SAA25554@calico.litterbox.com> Geoff, e-mail me privately. These trancievers are $24.99US each from datacom warehouse. I can order some for you and send them via slow boat (4-6 weeks 6 bucks US to ship) or air (4-7 days) (16 bucks US shipping) (these numbers are quoted for 2 pounds and a small package, but trancievers are small. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Oct 27 19:25:36 1998 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <000a01be0211$ea22c780$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 28 October 1998 12:53 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > >> I'm really gonna have to find a pinout for the AUI connectors. And how to >> connect them. > >Pin Function >---------------- That ought to do it, thanks very much! Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 27 19:36:01 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) In-Reply-To: <36361C16.755829D2@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote: > > Also, its relative. Since I am of the opinion that eBay does not > > constitute fair market value, what advantage am I taking? > > We will just have to agree to disagree. I have talked to quite a few ebay > buyers and sellers, and almost everyone agrees that the pricing there is > fair to both buyer and seller. A friend of mine I talked to last week buys > there and feels that he is getting some real bargains. All a matter of > perspective. Well, if the guy who bought the Atari 1200XL thinks he got fair market value, I'm happy for him. But I don't want to have to pay some schlub $600 for an Atari 1200XL the next time I see one go up for sale (luckily I won't have to, I paid less than $5 for mine at a thrift store, and if I want another I'll probably find it for around the same price). What that guy thinks is a "fair price" does NOT equate to "fair market". There is a huge distinction. > > Don't get me wrong, I still feel a little guilty when I get something > > REALLY good for a song that I may have had to pay a testicle for on eBay. > > ebay has had some real bargains. Remember the Altairs that sold for about > $500 and $700 some time ago? Most of the people I deal with I look at as > friends. And I try hard not to take advantage of friends ... unless I tell > them I am taking advantage of them :). No, I don't remember when an Altair went for $500 on eBay. :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 27 19:40:29 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Personal communications should stay off the list In-Reply-To: <199810272105.NAA29016@mxu3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Worse than off-topic crap is people using the list to send back and forth personal messages. In the very least, I think this can be avoided. On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Gene Ehrich wrote: > At 08:59 PM 10/26/98 -0500, you wrote: > >> Take a look at my web site when you get a chance. > >> > >> Lots of older things for sale plus some VERY INTERESTING riddles. > >> > >> http://www.voicenet.com/~generic > >> gene@ehrich > > > >Gene, > > > >Hi! Glad to see your up and about... > > Thanx, coming along slowly > > > > >I was looking at your page and wondering about the Compaq 386 portable... > >Do you still have it? If so, how much memory does it have and how much > >would you be looking for for it (your page just says best offer)? > > I have a deal, $80 plus shipping but hasn't completed yet. > > > > >Thanks... > ><> > > > gene@ehrich > http://www.voicenet.com/~generic > Computer & Video Game Garage Sale > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 27 19:48:39 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: <199810272138.PAA08763@falcon.inetnebr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Bill Richman wrote: > Coming from someone with a 24-line signature, ragging other people about > appropriate mailing list behavior strikes me as just a bit hypocritical. > Every time 1 or 2 people make noise about "noise" on the list, Sam jumps on > his "This list needs a moderator and I'm the man for the job" soapbox and > everybody grumbles about leaving until he settles down; I don't really see Actually, I did no such thing. I simply posted the FAQ in response to someone's (rightful) bitch that the list had gone sorely off-topic. Where did you get this assanine notion that I've all of a sudden caused this great stir you perceive? It seems to me that you're just fabricating this one to cause a needless debate, just like you've done in the past. Its assholes like you who take whatever opportunity you can to further throw the list into disarray for your own selfish reasons. Why can't you just shut up and let the noise die down instead of fanning the flames? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Oct 29 21:01:52 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981029164052.4adfd2c6@ricochet.net> At 08:28 AM 10/27/98, you wrote: >cans for evidence. The court ruled that stuff thrown into the trash and and >placed on the public right of way (street) for pickup was publicly >available and no longer private property. Of course, many commercial trash As I recall, the police must wait until the authorized agents of a designated service company (i.e., the garbagemen) have put the potential evidence into their own container (garbage truck) before they can get at it. But, IANAL... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Oct 29 21:01:52 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: ebay Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981029164506.4adf3594@ricochet.net> At 11:57 AM 10/26/98 -0700, you wrote: >4. Finally, to avoid heartache from being sniped, don't assume you have > a thing until you get the notification you won. Until you get that, > the thing isn't yours. I once bid on an item and saw the "auction has closed" screen. Then, ebay decided that because a problem came up shortly after the auction closed, they would reset all the auctions (even the ones not affected) to close one day later. Imagine my surprise when I checked MyEbay and saw the auction was open again! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Oct 29 21:01:53 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: ebay Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981029164937.4ad73382@ricochet.net> At 12:51 PM 10/26/98 -0800, you wrote: >An alternate to eBay is needed. The answer to sniping is to keep bidding open until no bids have been received for x minutes. That's the way some of the reputable collectible auction houses do it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Oct 29 21:01:53 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: ebay Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981029164701.4ad7cac8@ricochet.net> At 08:17 PM 10/26/98 +1, you wrote: >Just a NO. Maybe I'm stupid and old fashionated, >but sniping is just not possible. Yes it is. If there's something I really want, I generally have two browser windows open -- one to do frequent reloads on, and one with my info already entered and ready to submit. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Oct 29 21:01:54 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: ePay Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981029182121.4acff8a8@ricochet.net> At 12:50 AM 10/27/98 GMT, you wrote: >Yeah, but it's *such* a pisser when the sniping twit gets it for your >maximum plus 50 cents!! Like you'd say "Golly - I *really* want that >Altair that's autographed by the original designers, and I'll pay $5,550 >for it, but not $5,550.50!" I know I'm *way* too good at convincing >myself that my original bid was too low... And then there's always the I came across an ebay page that suggested a good way to find your true maximum: First pick what you think your max bid is, say $50. Now, close your eyes and imagine that the auction is over and someone got it for $51. How does that make you feel? If you're upset, set your maximum to say, $55 and try again. If the thought that someone would get it for $56 still gets you upset, do it again. If you get to $110, and the thought of someone getting it for $111 doesn't worry you, then you've found your true max. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Oct 29 21:01:54 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: ePay Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981029183126.4acf1b10@ricochet.net> At 01:44 PM 10/27/98 +1, you wrote: >Please ? The whole idea of sniping is just to avoide a real >competition situation. In fact, it may lower the price of >all 'needed' goods, because nobody will get a chance to top >the sniper. So a final price might have been higher. Very true. Assume your max for item X is $100. Opening bid is $1. You bid $100 on the first day, and the high bid is $1. Day 2, another bidder comes along and bids $20. You still have the high bid for $21. The other bidder sees that and tries again, this time putting in $40. Your bid is now $41. If, however, you wait 'til the last minute, the other bidder will bid $20 and that's it. You can come along at the last minute and snipe him for $21, saving you $20. Keep in mind, too, that not all categories get the inflated prices that the older computers get. I've got a box full of Donald Duck stuff (Rachel's birthday is 11/9) that I got at prices ranging from decent to outright theft. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Oct 29 21:01:51 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Dolphin (was Re: ebay) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981029163811.4adf70bc@ricochet.net> At 04:32 PM 10/27/98 +1, you wrote: >> No, I'm talking about the Dauphin DTR-1, a cute little 486-powered, >> pen-and-keyboard-capable portable computer. The "DTR" stands for >> "desktop replacement," which was overpromising a bit. As far as I >> know, there was no "DTR-2." I believe there was a DTR-2, though I don't know if it ever made it to production. Dauphin also made some more traditional laptops. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Oct 29 21:01:56 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: eVay Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981029183601.4ac7a2c6@ricochet.net> At 07:50 PM 10/25/98 GMT, you wrote: >"alexzogh", formerly of Net$cape, has his teeth in that one, so don't >bother. I don't think I've seen him throw an auction on eBay yet, once >he had started bidding. Was he with Netscape? I thought he had some company of his own in Chicago? In any case, he doesn't win every auction he bids on (though, from what I've heard, he could). I know, because there have been a few I've beat him on. btw, rumour has it he's on this list. (Hi Alex! 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 27 20:20:52 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II stuff!) In-Reply-To: <199810280115.UAA27868@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Lawrence Walker wrote: > http://www.warez.com/home.htm (not a warez site) > > It has some programs that can transfer raw data. Um, this doesn't having any programs that transfer raw data, but on the other hand it does contain some rather raw hard core porn pictures. Are you sure you got this URL right? :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From rax at warbaby.com Tue Oct 27 20:37:49 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: <199810272138.PAA08763@falcon.inetnebr.com> Message-ID: Bill Richman wisely commented: >I guess I'm with Max - if >you want an encyclopedia, get one. I prefer to deal with my on-line friends >and neighbors as whole people, not chopped up according to arbitrary >criteria and stuffed into neat little pigeonholes just to keep a few >anal-retentive people happy... > My fellings, exactly. The list is just fine the way it is. Sure, occasionally there's stuff posted that's somewhat off topic, but so what? There's also a lot of on-topic stuff posted that's of interest to no more than two or three people in the entire civilized world. So what? The list is a grand forum and a valuable knowledge resource. It ain't broke, so don't fuck with it. R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup. From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Tue Oct 27 15:43:43 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Fw: Reparir of my 8514/A monitor In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980612114649.007f36d0@wingate> Message-ID: <199810280239.VAA05045@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:46:49 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: David Wollmann > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Fw: Reparir of my 8514/A monitor > X-To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Anyone have any pulled MA3172s they can help this gent with or know of a > source for them? All I have are dead 8514s and I'm not good with a > soldering iron--I don't think this fella would want to buy/ship the whole > monitor just for the chip and I would destroy it if I tried to pull it. > Whoops! Old message but! Try this CCS, you can find the details to it at www.repairfaq.org THis is one they resell used and pulled, new parts for monitors, ibm and anything else. Jason D. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 27 20:29:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <01be020d$05483040$f17d38cb@help-desk> from "Computer Room Internet Cafe" at Oct 28, 98 11:20:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3710 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981028/64a95e2d/attachment.ksh From danjo at xnet.com Tue Oct 27 20:58:36 1998 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Rax wrote: > My feelings, exactly. The list is just fine the way it is. Sure, > occasionally there's stuff posted that's somewhat off topic, but > so what? Well - sometimes - like now - it gets REALLY off the track of discussing classic computers and starts discussing business ethics of the last few years of the 20th century or designing the greatest discrete processor of the ages - both are pretty far off the beaten path.... > There's also a lot of on-topic stuff posted that's of interest to no > more than two or three people in the entire civilized world. HEY! I resemble that remark! > So what? The list is a grand forum and a valuable knowledge resource. Aye that it is - why else would we be here? > It ain't broke, so don't fuck with it. Finally - some Classic Computer content! 8-) BC From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Oct 27 21:00:19 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Need Pinout: DEC H7861 Power Supply Message-ID: <199810280300.TAA01072@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Group: I have an old 11/23 with an H7861 power supply. It's a Q bus box. The cabinet kit is missing. There is a ten wire ribbon cable from the power supply. I am looking for the pinout of this ribbon cable, so that I can make my own panel. The leads likely carry DC OK, Halt, Restart, and so on. Anybody have the info on this? Thanks in advance, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 27 21:02:09 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, a lot of them are 10 base T only. Even though (IMHO) 10 base 2 makes > more sense for a small home network (no need to have a hub) and BNC plugs > are a lot easier to wire than those RJ45 things. Unless you're talking about two nodes (computers) side by side I'd have to disagree. Trying to run coax throughout your house is a right pain in the ass, is conducive to bad cabling (cables get stepped on, pulled, etc) and and doesn't allow a structured cabling design. Plus if there's a break in the cable your hwole network can go down. 10baseT on the other hand allows you to isolate failures to one node, the cables are as easy to crimp once you get the hang of it (and actually become EASIER once you get good at it) and you don't have to worry about running a black coax cable around corners, over door frames, etc. And 4-port hubs can be had for less than $50 these days. A worthwhile investment for having a more stable, cleaner network. Plus you can always take advantage of 10 times the bandwidth later on (with 100baseT, providing you used Category 5 cabling). With Coax you are stuck at 10Mbps. And 100baseT network cards can be had for under $40 if you order by mail. Again, coax is good for multiple computers on a rack for instance, side by side. But the drawback is still low bandwidth. Of course, this assumes your machine can use 100baseT. Old machines like your PERQs and PDP11's would be quite happy with 10baseT. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From wpe101 at banet.net Tue Oct 27 21:11:34 1998 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening References: <363e1a56.677540671@insight> Message-ID: <36368B66.DE7371D0@banet.net> Bill Richman wrote: > > Boo hoo. Personally, I *enjoy* some "chatter" in the group, as long as ----8<----8<----8<----8<----8<----8<---- Note above "snip", I wholeheartedly agree! This group serves my interest, and, yeah, there's digressions, stuff unrelated to what "I" deal with, and, Oh my gosh-golly-gee hit the delete key!... But, I feel that's a natural occurance. I sincerely doubt you'll find any better knowledge base regarding "Classic Computers". If you do, please let the rest of us know.. Sorry everybody, but I had to get it off'a my chest.. (guess this whole thread is a digression). Will From rcini at email.msn.com Tue Oct 27 21:24:44 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Help -- pages from PDP11 Bus Handbook missing Message-ID: <000901be0222$9d0a63c0$18f42399@mainoffice> Hello, all: The "PDP11 Bus Handbook" is the next doc that I own that is next on the scanner bed (so to speak). I only have Xerox copies of the book, and the copy is missing pages 22 and 23. If someone has this book ( (c) 1979) and can either scan the missing pages or snail-mail copies of them to me, I'd appreciate it. As always, thanks. Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin!/CW7 - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Collector of "classic" computers <========= reply separator ==========> From bill_r at inetnebr.com Tue Oct 27 21:32:45 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36458d55.772515037@insight> On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:48:39 -0800 (PST), Sammy wrote: >Actually, I did no such thing. I simply posted the FAQ in response to >someone's (rightful) bitch that the list had gone sorely off-topic. Where >did you get this assanine notion that I've all of a sudden caused this >great stir you perceive? It seems to me that you're just fabricating > Golly gosh, Sammy - I guess I got it from the last few times you've stumbled down this particular path with me and the rest of the list. >this one to cause a needless debate, just like you've done in the past. > >Its assholes like you who take whatever opportunity you can to further >throw the list into disarray for your own selfish reasons. Why can't you >just shut up and let the noise die down instead of fanning the flames? "Why can't I just shut up?" Fuck you, Sammy boy. With a rusty iron pipe. _Anybody_ else can voice an opinion here, but for some reason _you_ decided you don't _like_ me (what is it - did I neglect to kiss your ass when I came in?), so as soon as I say a _word_, you find a reason to end the discussion because it's "off-topic" (nevermind the 5 or 6 times you contributed to most of the threads in question before I said anything), or you accuse me of "fanning the flames" when done nothing but voice an opinion like everyone else has been. What total and utter bullshit. You really need some Prozac, or a shrink to help you work through those left-over potty-training issues from childhood. (Or did you forget all the obscene, abusive, highly personal e-mails you sent me the last time I forgot to agree with your opinion? I've got a special folder that messages from you are filtered into - it's called "Asshole". I had thought that you were done with the childish name calling and personal attacks, but I guess not.) What would your public think - the man who organized SamFest '98 (errr... excuse me... VCF) - calling people assholes and telling them to shut up - all because they voice an opinion about a list they have an interest in? Not very attractive behavior, Sambo. Not very attractive at all. -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.) From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Oct 27 21:45:11 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Message-ID: <199810280346.WAA09036@gate.usaor.net> > > "Why can't I just shut up?" Fuck you, Sammy boy. With a rusty iron > pipe. _Anybody_ else can voice an opinion here, but for some reason > _you_ decided you don't _like_ me (what is it - did I neglect to kiss > your ass when I came in?), so as soon as I say a _word_, you find a > reason to end the discussion because it's "off-topic" (nevermind the 5 > or 6 times you contributed to most of the threads in question before I > said anything), or you accuse me of "fanning the flames" when done > nothing but voice an opinion like everyone else has been. What total > and utter bullshit. You really need some Prozac, or a shrink to help > you work through those left-over potty-training issues from childhood. > (Or did you forget all the obscene, abusive, highly personal e-mails you > sent me the last time I forgot to agree with your opinion? I've got a > special folder that messages from you are filtered into - it's called > "Asshole". I had thought that you were done with the childish name > calling and personal attacks, but I guess not.) What would your public > think - the man who organized SamFest '98 (errr... excuse me... VCF) - > calling people assholes and telling them to shut up - all because they > voice an opinion about a list they have an interest in? Not very > attractive behavior, Sambo. Not very attractive at all. > Look, I don't know if this was supposed to be a private mail, or not, but WHATEVER it is, it's DEFINATELY OFF-TOPIC! I really think I'd have to side with Sam on this one. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Oct 27 17:48:08 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: References: from "Van Burnham" at Oct 27, 98 10:21:52 am Message-ID: <199810280352.WAA07744@smtp.interlog.com> On 27 Oct 98 at 21:15, Tony Duell wrote: > > One of the big problems in my opinion is the fact that individuals will > > consistently submit multiple posts...one day, I believe Hans had NINE > > consecutive posts! Is this absolutely necessary? When the Velvet Rope was > > Sorry, but no. In many cases it makes life a lot easier to keep messages > in threads, both for the person answering and for people reading it later. > I agree. Although I am likely known for my overlong msgs. I think the thread idea is a good cutom to continue. That way you can simply skip the msgs. you have no interest in. I would suspect Hans comes from that old school. > Otherwise you'd have to take all the messages you wanted to reply to, > extract the appropriate parts, put them together, answer them and post. > Trying to make any sense of the list after that would be impossible. We'd > get posts with a comment on the TRS-80, a couple on the PDP11, etc all > mixed up. No thanks! > Many times there are 200 posts a day as the list expands. It would be virtually impossible to read and relate all the ideas in one msg, each multiplex coming from a different responder > > system...I'm sorry. That simply is _not_ appropriate. Either is > > gunsmithing, lathe building, snipers, or Star Trek theory. > I basicly agree and am doing an 180 degree turn from my vehement opposition to such , to the point were I wonder whether we might need a moderator. And of course that brings up the question of who moderates the moderator. > Actully, lathe operation _could_ be on-topic. Restoration methods are on > topic here (I hope), and that includes making parts for machines where > the originals are unavailable. Or do you have a magic source of > spindles/rollers/etc for every machine ever made :-). If so, where is it? > The rest of us have to make these things... > Heh, heh, heh, my own interests incline to lathe operations but an argument could be made that it's off-topic. But I don't think anyone here wants such hard and fast rules that we don't allow a bit of overrun. I do tend to agree with some of the criticism made of the list as a general grab-bag of topics of interest to people interested in old computers whether or not it has anything to do with classic computers. There are enough general topic forums out there that we don't need to turn this into another. The old Fido groups required a moderator just because of the anarchic style generated by this new medium. Many were overwhelmed by material not related to the theme that was posted irregardless and failed because of that. Many comp.sys newsgroups are now simply the preserve of spammers who don't realize nobody reads it anymore. That should be the strength of a mailing list. To reserve the right of posting to those who obey its rules. > [Sig deleted] Often thought about these sigs. Many Fido groups only allowed 3 lines for a sig. And people would spend a lot of time working out the aasci form. It's a pretty esoteric one in any case and 16 lines ! > And I suppose long .sigs are not noise??? > > -tony > ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Oct 27 17:48:09 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model II stuff! In-Reply-To: <981027125500.22200432@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199810280352.WAA07774@smtp.interlog.com> On 27 Oct 98 at 12:55, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > With a few of my Linux > >tools, I may even be able to make images on modern media, though I'm > >unclear as to how to translate 77-track x 34 (256byte) sector media > >to 80-track x 18 (512byte) sector media. I know it will fit fine -- > >whether it can be used directly if an adapter is made to connect the > >new drives to the old hardware I don't know > > Again, this is well discussed in Q16 ("Can I use the newer floppy > drives on my old machine?") of the CP/M FAQ. See > > http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/CPM-faq/faq.html > > >-- and track 0 was single > >density IIRC, the boot ROM might be sticky. > > And there are several > tools - most notably Teledisk - which can handle split-density > floppies. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 > 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 > Tim have you been into a particularly suppressive or anal-retentive mode lately ? What's the harm ? And I'm sorry but this was a CPM FAQ not an 8' fd faq. Much less a well-discussed one. FAQs were created to answer repetitious questions not to eliminate the need for particular group discussion of the theme.. Reminds me of the old guilds where smithy methods should not be discussed among the profane. I don't remember you posting objections to any other thread. Why this ? ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Oct 27 17:48:10 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model II stuff! In-Reply-To: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5DC9@NTS_EXCH> Message-ID: <199810280352.WAA07786@smtp.interlog.com> On 27 Oct 98 at 11:53, Matt Pritchard wrote: > Speaking of which, I have a complete Model II in storage; anyone > interested? > There's been a renewed interest in the model II and several people are looking for them. There was a WTB just recently in comp.sys.tandy. He was willing to buy just so he could salvage a bunch of data from bygone times. If only they weren't so bloody heavy to ship. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From ai705 at osfn.org Tue Oct 27 21:59:04 1998 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: ebay In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981029164506.4adf3594@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 11:57 AM 10/26/98 -0700, you wrote: > >4. Finally, to avoid heartache from being sniped, don't assume you have > > a thing until you get the notification you won. Until you get that, > > the thing isn't yours. > > I once bid on an item and saw the "auction has closed" screen. Then, ebay > decided that because a problem came up shortly after the auction closed, > they would reset all the auctions (even the ones not affected) to close one > day later. Imagine my surprise when I checked MyEbay and saw the auction > was open again! Roger, Do you have a time frame for this? I remember it happening once and I believe it was prior to their major server change the middle of August 1997. Sometime during that summer, they got an infusion of venture capital and made major hardware (distributed over multiple cpus) and software changes. Near the end of August they started the new auction numbering system of incrementing from 1. (the old system was a random three letter/4 digit code) I am not shilling for Ebay. In fact defending them now versus 2 years ago is like cheering Bill Gates circa 1992 as opposed to 1981. I realize you are relating an anecdote, however, there is the implication that a single anomaly from at least 14 or 15 months ago qualifies as an expectation it is going to happen again. If your memory of the event is different from mine, please post the details. -- Stephen Dauphin From bill_r at inetnebr.com Tue Oct 27 22:02:22 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: <199810280346.WAA09036@gate.usaor.net> References: <199810280346.WAA09036@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <364895e1.774703044@insight> On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:45:11 -0500, roblwill@usaor.net wrote: > >Look, I don't know if this was supposed to be a private mail, or not, but >WHATEVER it is, it's DEFINATELY OFF-TOPIC! I really think I'd have to side >with Sam on this one. > No, it was intentionally posted to the list. I'm tired of Sam shutting down reasonable discussions by declaring them "off-topic" while in the same breath getting the last word, while simultaneously insulting people for no good reason. I've got a half dozen e-mails filled with Sam's bile and hate from the last time I dared defend someone's right to an opinion other than his. I just thought it might be educational for people to see the festering hatred and insecurity that's exposed when you scratch Sam's surface. That is, of course, unless he decides to be a pussy and flame me in e-mail again. (Fair warning, Sam - anything you e-mail me is going on this list for everyone to see and judge for themselves.) -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.) From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Oct 27 18:04:03 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II stuff!) In-Reply-To: References: <199810280115.UAA27868@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199810280407.XAA13269@smtp.interlog.com> On 27 Oct 98 at 18:20, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > http://www.warez.com/home.htm (not a warez site) > > > > It has some programs that can transfer raw data. > > Um, this doesn't having any programs that transfer raw data, but on the > other hand it does contain some rather raw hard core porn pictures. Are > you sure you got this URL right? :) > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com Oops that should have been http://www.diskwarez.com/stuff.htm Hmm Now where did you place your period to get the raw hard porn ? ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 27 22:09:24 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: <36368B66.DE7371D0@banet.net> Message-ID: I would gladly give away my entire collection if this re-occuring episode of "You're off-topic! No, I'm not! Fuck you! We should the list! No we shouldn't! It's fine the way it is" would be cured once and for all. It seems we have to go through this every 3 months. If someone nudges you back on topic, just drop it. Eventually the perpetrators will move on to more on-topic material. We could certainly do without all these obnoxious "me too" posts. On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Will Emerson wrote: > > > Bill Richman wrote: > > > > Boo hoo. Personally, I *enjoy* some "chatter" in the group, as long as > ----8<----8<----8<----8<----8<----8<---- > Note above "snip", I wholeheartedly agree! This group serves my > interest, > and, yeah, there's digressions, stuff unrelated to what "I" deal with, > and, Oh my gosh-golly-gee hit the delete key!... But, I feel that's a > natural occurance. I sincerely doubt you'll find any better knowledge > base regarding "Classic Computers". If you do, please let the rest of us > know.. > Sorry everybody, but I had to get it off'a my chest.. (guess this whole > thread is a digression). > Will > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Oct 27 22:15:54 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Message-ID: <199810280417.XAA14532@gate.usaor.net> Agreed. ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening > Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 11:09 PM > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 27 22:23:10 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: <364895e1.774703044@insight> Message-ID: That's OK, Bill. There's no need for me to send any particular response to this public display of social retardation, other than to acknowledge that you are seriously off-topic and really need to shut up. But if it'll make you feel better, then I'll be the better man and let you have the last word publicly. If it'll get you to finally calm down then it'll be well worth it. Go ahead and reply to this message with another off-topic tantrum and I shall not spew a word about it. You're welcome. On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Bill Richman wrote: > No, it was intentionally posted to the list. I'm tired of Sam shutting > down reasonable discussions by declaring them "off-topic" while in the > same breath getting the last word, while simultaneously insulting people > for no good reason. I've got a half dozen e-mails filled with Sam's > bile and hate from the last time I dared defend someone's right to an > opinion other than his. I just thought it might be educational for > people to see the festering hatred and insecurity that's exposed when > you scratch Sam's surface. That is, of course, unless he decides to be > a pussy and flame me in e-mail again. (Fair warning, Sam - anything you > e-mail me is going on this list for everyone to see and judge for > themselves.) > > > > -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) > http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer > Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.) > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From bill_r at inetnebr.com Tue Oct 27 22:37:45 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <364a9d88.776662501@insight> On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:23:10 -0800 (PST), Sam wrote: >That's OK, Bill. There's no need for me to send any particular response >to this public display of social retardation, other than to acknowledge >that you are seriously off-topic and really need to shut up. > Oh, Sam. I'm sorry your parents didn't love you, and I'm sorry your puppy was run over, and I'm sorry you didn't get to be hall monitor. I'm glad to hear that the medication is helping. Maybe one day you can live a normal life. (You didn't happen to catch the skit on Mad TV or Saturday night live recently, where the couple had the retarded son whose could only say the phrase "Shut-up" over and over, did you...?) >But if it'll make you feel better, then I'll be the better man and let you >have the last word publicly. If it'll get you to finally calm down then >it'll be well worth it. Go ahead and reply to this message with another >off-topic tantrum and I shall not spew a word about it. > (Pardon me. Get me to "finally calm down"? I stated an opinion against censoring this list of anything vaguely off-topic. You got in my face about it, and now _I_ need to calm down? Hmm. You and Mr. Clinton would get along well. He's good at double talk and twisting the facts to suit his purposes too.) -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.) From danjo at xnet.com Tue Oct 27 22:50:38 1998 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Noise levels have become deaf In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > That's OK, Bill. There's no need for me to send any particular response > to this public display of social retardation, other than to acknowledge ****** > that you are seriously off-topic and really need to shut up. Better put the filter on your Email Bill !!! > But if it'll make you feel better, then I'll be the better man and let you > have the last word publicly. ******** Oops I better put the Sam Slammer back in too! > If it'll get you to finally calm down then it'll be well worth it. Go > ahead and reply to this message with another off-topic tantrum and I > shall not spew a word about it. I a speachless - and apprehensive..... > You're welcome. > > On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Bill Richman wrote: > > No, it was intentionally posted to the list. I'm tired of Sam shutting > > down reasonable discussions by declaring them "off-topic" while in the > > same breath getting the last word, while simultaneously insulting people > > for no good reason. I've got a half dozen e-mails filled with Sam's > > bile and hate from the last time I dared defend someone's right to an > > opinion other than his. I just thought it might be educational for > > people to see the festering hatred and insecurity that's exposed when > > you scratch Sam's surface. That is, of course, unless he decides to be > > a pussy and flame me in e-mail again. (Fair warning, Sam - anything you > > e-mail me is going on this list for everyone to see and judge for > > themselves.) Well - that last time Sam 'went overboard' I couldn't shut HIM up until I threatened to go to his VCF and hand out printed copies of his emails to the attendees 8-) Maybe we should get together and do a 'book' on him! I will say that he gets really sweet right before a VCF and then goes power hungry with the list afterwards... but then everything settles down to a nice dull roar. Until about March when he knows he has to start being nice again - he will have one more flare up before Mr. Nice Guy has to come out and play again. I have gotten used to it. Try to hang in there Bill. BC From erd at infinet.com Tue Oct 27 23:18:20 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:45 2005 Subject: Help -- pages from PDP11 Bus Handbook missing In-Reply-To: <000901be0222$9d0a63c0$18f42399@mainoffice> from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at Oct 27, 98 10:24:44 pm Message-ID: <199810280518.AAA21792@user2.infinet.com> > > Hello, all: > > The "PDP11 Bus Handbook" is the next doc that I own that is next on the > scanner bed (so to speak). I only have Xerox copies of the book, and the > copy is missing pages 22 and 23. If someone has this book ( (c) 1979) and > can either scan the missing pages or snail-mail copies of them to me, I'd > appreciate it. I have a copy right here. It's one of the books my old boss told me never to lose track of. It was essential to our company's product development in 1979-1982. How would you like them scanned? I can easily do 400dpi TIFFs right here, or I could xox them and snail-mail them. My flatbed scanner is on loan. All I have is a Brother ImageCenter (which is cool by itself - sheet feed only, but if you hook it up to a Brother or HP printer, there's a "copy" button that produces a digital copy). -ethan From nerdware at laidbak.com Tue Oct 27 23:25:17 1998 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Joyboard In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19981027090716.009ec620@texas.net> Message-ID: <199810280522.XAA13338@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:20:33 +0000 (GMT) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: "KNIGHT G.A" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Joyboard > In 1983 the original Amiga Inc company (formerly known as > Hi-Toro) launched a joyboard for the Atari 2600. It was > similar to many of the arcade games such as WaveRider that > exist today as you placed your whole body on it. Does > anyone have one of these? I'm looking for some scans and > technical information of one actually in operation. Any > help would be appreciated. > > Regards, > Gareth Knight > Amiga Interactive Guide > http://welcome.to/aig And this, according to RJ Mical, was the origin of the "Guru Meditation" warnings the Amiga OS gave when you'd done something supremely stupid. The Hi-Toro guys had developed a game to use with the joyboard called "Guru Meditation" or something similar that required you to concentrate and balance perfectly level and centered on the board in order to win. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Oct 27 23:48:15 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) In-Reply-To: References: <36361C16.755829D2@rain.org> Message-ID: <4.1.19981027213556.00a02100@mcmanis.com> Ok, I have to draw a line on this one Sam ... At 05:36 PM 10/27/98 -0800, Sam wrote: >Well, if the guy who bought the Atari 1200XL thinks he got fair market >value, I'm happy for him. But I don't want to have to pay some schlub >$600 for an Atari 1200XL the next time I see one go up for sale (luckily I >won't have to, I paid less than $5 for mine at a thrift store, and if I >want another I'll probably find it for around the same price). What that >guy thinks is a "fair price" does NOT equate to "fair market". There is a >huge distinction. There IS a huge distinction, there is no such thing as a "fair price." Its a myth, it don't exist, deal with it. If this "schlub" as you so affectionately refer to them knew about your thrift store (and I can guarantee you he will) then you won't find Atari's in thrift stores and you won't find them at swap meets and the _only_ way to get one will be to pay more than what some other "schlub" is willing to pay. And if the price is too rich for you then you won't own one. What's a "fair" price for a Picasso? a Rembrandt? That is exactly what a market IS and it is actually _incredibly_ fair. Without external intervention it will settle on a price that people are willing to pay. To use the 1200XL example.. Word will get around that a 1200XL goes for 600 on Ebay, so enterprising folks who have been in thrift stores will start scrounging around for them, and then they will all put them up on eBay and the large number of them will cause the price to come down, probably way down but it may not get down to a level you are comfortable paying. For heaven's sake, you think there is a "fair" price for a house in Silicon Valley? Of course not, the MARKET supports a median house price that is well above what any ordinary mortal could pay for, but only because there are enough people willing to pay that price. When people said, "This is f__ ridicululous!" in 1991 guess what, houses stayed on the market until the price came down. When I bought my house I offered nearly 100K UNDER the asking price, got the house and it STILL lost 15K in value over the next couple of years! Now its going back up, great, but that will change when the guys from eBay who got rich on the IPO have all bought there houses. Economics, not just an idea it's a discipline that actually predicts these things pretty accurately... --Chuck From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue Oct 27 23:44:15 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Joyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, KNIGHT G.A wrote: > In 1983 the original Amiga Inc company (formerly known as > Hi-Toro) launched a joyboard for the Atari 2600. It was > similar to many of the arcade games such as WaveRider that > exist today as you placed your whole body on it. Does > anyone have one of these? I have one, sent to me during the Ice Storm from sunny California by another member of this list. > I'm looking for some scans and technical information of one actually > in operation. Any help would be appreciated. I've got a few photos on my web page, but none of it being used. Maybe I should find a pretty model to stand on it? :) > Regards, > Gareth Knight > Amiga Interactive Guide > http://welcome.to/aig -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From aaron at wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 28 00:40:49 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: <36458d55.772515037@insight> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Bill Richman wrote: One Bill Richman, now officially permanently routed to /dev/null... From aaron at wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 28 00:44:01 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Noise levels have become deaf In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Brett wrote: > Better put the filter on your Email Bill !!! And if you need help doing it, even though it's off-topic, I'm sure someone here can help you configure your mail reader. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Oct 28 01:14:36 1998 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <025001be0242$ab8575a0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 28 October 1998 14:19 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >Oh well... Another useful product becomes unavailable thanks to progress... > Seems that way. I may have found a source of new ones, but the price is a bit much. S/H ones seem to disappear as soon as they come out of service. >> Most network cards produced these days don't have AUI ports on them. >Yes, a lot of them are 10 base T only. Even though (IMHO) 10 base 2 makes >more sense for a small home network (no need to have a hub) and BNC plugs >are a lot easier to wire than those RJ45 things. Oh, RJ45's are no problem provided you have a decent tool. I use crimp on BNC's as well. I have a mix of both on my home network and at my shop. The school is all cat 5 now. >Fortunately, I got a load of transceivers at a radio rally with minor >faults (mostly open-circuit connections on the BNC connector). Lucky boy. >If there's a 16 pin chip near the BNC connector marked 83C92 or something >like that, then it can be made into a transceiver. You can either raid >the bits off the card or (Hey, a good idea...): >A lot of cards have 6 links that you have to move to select between AUI >and 10 base 2. They simply link the appropriate signals from the logic on >the card either to the AUI connector or to the internal transceiver. It >should be possible to feed signal from an AUI 'input' to the right pins >on those links, apply power (you probably only need the +12V line) to the >card and avoid a lot of work. Actually, this thought also crossed my mind whilst gazing at just such a card. I'm going to try that. I have an NE2000 clone card I'm going to try and convert to a txcvr. I think it needs +-12v and +- 5v, but that's not a big problem. (Diskless workstation PSU) >If you want to try this, then you'll need to trace out the schematic >around the links. It's worth knowing that most of the pulse transformers >used to isolate the logic signals at the transceiver contain 3 little >transformers in a 16 pin DIL package on pins (1,2,15,16), (5,6,12,13), >(7,8,9,10). Yep, can see them. >Trace the secondaries to the transceiver chip and then you >know what each transformer section is for (one will be Tx Data, one >RxData, one Collision). Alternatively, trace the link connections to the >ethernet chip on the card, but it may be more difficult to get data on >that. Not even gonna try. A direct patch into the txcvr from the AUI port with a little xover cabling ought to do it. > Did I mention that you'll need the data sheets on the transceiver chip? You did. Know a source? Online one preferably? >The pinout is : Got it, thanks for that. >> connect them. > >The cable is special :-(. It's 4 twisted pairs + shields (which you link >to the ground pins). One of the twisted pairs is thicker than the other >3, and is used for power. I imagine most anything will probably work, provided the leads are kept short. I have some shielded audio stuff that should do nicely. Something to experiment and tinker with for a while. :^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Oct 28 01:37:58 1998 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model II stuff! Message-ID: <802566AB.002F376A.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > Speaking of which, I have a complete Model II in storage; anyone > interested? Please remember when posting to the list to say where things are! If it's in the UK, Yes please I am definitely interested. If it's elsewhere in Europe, Yes, I am possibly interested. If it's not in Europe, Yes, I'd love one, but I can't afford the shipping. Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Oct 27 10:12:13 1998 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit! Message-ID: <802566AA.005DE8BB.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> I therefore see address buses growing at 16 bits every 30 years. That's >> just over a bit every 2 years - slower than I expected but not much. >> Someone (I forget who) said that memory chips double in capacity every 18 >> months. This would give 16 bits in 24 years. > > Interesting szenario, especialy when connected to the Mores Law > (didn't he tell this regarding integration ?). Thanks. That's the one I'm thinking of - the amount of memory you get on the same area of silicon doubles every 18 months. Apply it to the memory sizes of computers and it seems to work: in 1974 a small computer was a PDP-11/05 with perhaps 16 K bytes of memory (up to 56 K if you were lucky, IIRC). 24 years later = 16 * 18 months, a small computer is a pentiyuck PC with rather less than 2^^16 * 16 K = 1 gigabyte, but not that much less. A computer in the same market slot as the 11/05 is perhaps a Sparcstation, in which a gig of memory is by no means out of the question... > Hmm I will have my 88th by then - jets join :) Your place or mine? :-) :-) Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Oct 27 10:25:56 1998 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay) Message-ID: <802566AA.005EA35C.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > At 10:00 AM 10/27/98 -0000, you wrote: >>Sam wrote: >>> But I ended up getting a visit from my friendly >>> neighborhood police. It seems some local concerned citizen saw me pulling >>> out all sorts of computer gear from the trash and decided something evil >>> was being perpetrated. Go figure. >> >>What did the police have to say about it? >> >>At what point does the contents of the dumpster become publicly available? >>I imagine that this might be a different point than the one at which police >>are aloud to search for evidence, but IANAL. > > I know a couple of guys that dumpster dive nearly every night. The > police have pulled them over numerous times. They usually check them and > their stuff then let them go. Sometimes they tell them to leave but that's > all. They've never been taken in or arrested. FWIW There was a court case > (supreme court?) some years ago that involved the police searching trash > cans for evidence. The court ruled that stuff thrown into the trash and and > placed on the public right of way (street) for pickup was publicly > available and no longer private property. Of course, many commercial trash > dumpsters are still located on company property so this may have no bearing. I don't know what the law is in the UK regarding dustbins (trashcans) but regarding skips (dumpsters) it is something like: Person X makes a contract with a waste disposal contractor Y. Y delivers a skip to X's premises, and probably leaves it in the road (at precisely the worst place for motorists trying to get around it :-) ). X throws stuff into the skip, but it remains X's property, and to pull it out is theft. Eventually X has thrown in all he wants and phones up Y to collect the skip. When Y does, the stuff in the skip becomes Y's property. At work, I used to skip-dive a lot. I was once told that I was breaking the law because I had removed a Superbrain from the skip. Not so - I am a PowerGen employee; the item was PowerGen property, and I hadn't removed it from the PowerGen site; I actually offered L15 for it, since that is what I thought it was worth. However, skip-diving is now officially banned. I have been quite strongly warned off several times, once for just looking at the skip! The warnings came from quite high up, passed down through my boss. They claim there is a policy by which items are offered to staff before disposal. Some stuff (PCs etc.) is offered by competitive tender. Some stuff (Commodore 8296) is offered to me personally for L1. But a lot (incomplete Silicon Graphics Personal Iris) just goes in the skip anyway. I don't know how much goes in the skip - I don't go there very often now :-( - but I just happened to be walking past and saw the Iris :-( :-( Philip. From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Wed Oct 28 04:54:25 1998 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: [off topic and out of hand] Re: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: <36364966.405958D9@cnct.com> References: Message-ID: >Not desiring to continue the thread, but: i guess we have 2? >This is not IRC, it is a mailing list. whats irc got to do with anything? >There is no need to use the >silly little abbreviations designed to "speed up" on-line chat and >the typing of same. theyre not silly what is _really_ silly is acronyms (and as i say - iha: i hate acronyms) how am i supposed to decipher AMIOKOAI or whatever that stuff some of u write is? im not gonna look up in a acronym list everytime i see this stuff >Use English or as close an approximation as you can. thats exactly what im doing >Capital letters help as well as punctuation -- a carriage return >is not expected to be the end of a sentence, especially when the next >line starts in lower case. My best estimate is that the quoted message >took me at least three times as long to parse as it should have. oh im really sorry it troubled u so but i really other problems here r much more serious From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Wed Oct 28 05:04:50 1998 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Personal communications should stay off the list In-Reply-To: References: <199810272105.NAA29016@mxu3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >Worse than off-topic crap is people using the list to send back and forth >personal messages. In the very least, I think this can be avoided. i totally agree with u there but i didnt bother to mention that b4 along with things like the web site was down??? gee whiz just wait a bit - try again later! or mail personally the whole mailing list doesnt need to know of your bad connection (for example) nasos From franke at sbs.de Wed Oct 28 06:58:18 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Message-ID: <199810281138.MAA19712@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> even breaking the lists in two - on and off topic >>> so that ppl with common interests can also talk about other things (like >>> experiences) >>> both lists would die though > I actually had a similar thought and it could work. Is it > possible to create an off-topic mailing list that is not publicly > advertised and cannot be subscribed to unless one were already a > subscriber to the on-topic one? Those that want the on-topic list > could get that, those who want both would get both and no one could > subscribe to only the off-topic one. The unwritten rule is that no new > topic could be spontaneously generated on the off-topic one and the > only new threads allowable would be those banished from the on-topic list. > Of course threads would be allowed to meander and mutate once they were > released to the off-topic list. This is just a thought. It certainly > would allow for these brief hot torrents of opinion on semi off-topic > material to run their course without inconveniencing those who wish to > only see hardcore tech info. The off-topic list would be like a sidebar > only accessible to those who read the on-topic one. Nice talk, but just think how hard it seams to be just to change the Subject line at the right moment AND to get all participants into changing it - not to mention the time delay. This is just an international thing - when I get up and have a first look at it Allison is still sleeping, Uncle Roger (or the other US West Coast guys) are just about to find their sleeping position, while Olminkhof is right about to leave the office - I've seen these things from other lists and news groups. It is just impossible. It is even impossible to live such a policy within a worldwide collaboration tool for a project. Even when corporate and special rules try to enforce it. And Moderation is just the dead of any list (maybe beside a anouncement list for 0190 (1-900) services, where they don't need any spontanous answer. >> This is not IRC, it is a mailing list. There is no need to use the >> silly little abbreviations designed to "speed up" on-line chat and >> the typing of same. Use English or as close an approximation as you >> can. Capital letters help as well as punctuation -- a carriage return Thank you. I hope I'm not hurting your eyes to hard. Fact is that some abbrevation like SCNR or AFAIK/R are thruout usefull, and fixed, so they can be used like IBM or VAX. But, I also dislike this ur2slw4me stuff - I need twice the to read it than regular. > Hey---just kidding around!! There are times this list > seriously lacks any sense of humor. It is ? I found some real good ones in the list :) Gruss H. P.S.: and for NINE mails in one day - I prefer to answer or comment directly, just to keep it small (ok, ok, I know I tend to elaborate whole bibles if I like something) and simple. Writing a mail composing several themes - what should it be named ? - where should it link ? And who will read it ? Just beside from the problem I would have to use additional word processing tools to combine it with the impossibility to keep an overview - I still have to do some regular job in my spare time. P.P.S.: Satisfied ? -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Wed Oct 28 06:58:18 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit! Message-ID: <199810281138.MAA20638@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> I therefore see address buses growing at 16 bits every 30 years. That's >>> just over a bit every 2 years - slower than I expected but not much. >>> Someone (I forget who) said that memory chips double in capacity every >>> 18 months. This would give 16 bits in 24 years. >> Interesting szenario, especialy when connected to the Mores Law >> (didn't he tell this regarding integration ?). > Thanks. That's the one I'm thinking of - the amount of memory you get on > the same area of silicon doubles every 18 months. Basicly I think its about integrations and transistor equivalents, but this is just linear to the size of memorys. In fact, to come back to the original question, Arfon just took doubling of address space and doubbling of data bus width for the same thing, but in fact they are two different functions - widening data bus is linear, while widening address bus is to the square (sorry, my mathematical english just stops here). This means doubble the data bus just doubbles the date transfer rate (the only thing the data bus is needed for) or w'=w+w. But doubbling the address bus is putting the address range (and thats what the address bus is for) to the square or r'=r*r. So, while a 256 or 512 bit data bus is usefull (and already in use in main frames - only called data path), even a 128 Bit address bus is just nonsense. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 28 06:17:50 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > I would gladly give away my entire collection if this re-occuring > episode [...] would be cured once and for all. It seems we have to go > through this every 3 months. Cure 1: Unsubscribe. This will cure things as far as you can tell. If everybody unsubscribes, then the list will be cured. Cure 2: Use a bozo filter. I can give you the simple one I use with procmail and pine. I can even give you a list of bozos, if you want :-) Cure 3: Convince the list admin to create separate signal and noise sublists. Both lists feed into the main list. The signal list has your choice of editorial control mechanism. You have the choice of subscribing to just signal, just noise, or the mixed list. I don't have room for your entire collection, but I'll be over to start picking through stuff tomorrow. -- Doug From franke at sbs.de Wed Oct 28 07:38:46 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sour Message-ID: <199810281218.NAA20276@marina.fth.sbs.de> > I don't know what the law is in the UK regarding dustbins (trashcans) but > regarding skips (dumpsters) it is something like: > Person X makes a contract with a waste disposal contractor Y. Y delivers a > skip to X's premises, and probably leaves it in the road (at precisely the > worst place for motorists trying to get around it :-) ). X throws stuff > into the skip, but it remains X's property, and to pull it out is theft. > Eventually X has thrown in all he wants and phones up Y to collect the > skip. When Y does, the stuff in the skip becomes Y's property. Almost same for Germany, although the point of changing ownership is depending on the contract. In most cases the ownership changes when the item ist dumped, althrough no court will rule agains a dumping person when the item is taken back. The same is true for any public trashcan/ dustbin. As soon as it is droped it belongs to the owner of the dustbin. > At work, I used to skip-dive a lot. I was once told that I was breaking > the law because I had removed a Superbrain from the skip. Lucky one! > However, skip-diving is now officially banned. I > have been quite strongly warned off several times, once for just looking at > the skip! The warnings came from quite high up, passed down through my > boss. Seams to be an attitude of all management - bann whatever you don't understand. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Wed Oct 28 07:56:12 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: ebay Message-ID: <199810281236.NAA18304@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>Just a NO. Maybe I'm stupid and old fashionated, >>but sniping is just not possible. > Yes it is. If there's something I really want, I generally have two > browser windows open -- one to do frequent reloads on, and one with my info > already entered and ready to submit. :)))) You should thank GOd (or alt least your ISP) for your line, every day twice. Especialy when it's 2 pm to 4 am over here, it's impossible to do things like that. And for your extension by x minutes - thats just the same problem - only the one with enuff time to stay online and fast lines will be able to participate. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dogas at leading.net Wed Oct 28 06:43:22 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Armiton Message-ID: <01be0270$8c285a00$e9c962cf@devlaptop> Does anyone have a spare (Radio Shack circa '84/5) Armitron. It was a robot arm toy. An interfacing project with an Atari 800 never got off the ground back then and I would like to finally follow through... Thank Mike dogas@leading.net From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Oct 28 07:03:44 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II stuff!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13399371091.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [www.warez.com/home.htm] Umm... That's warez and porn. Did you post the wrong line from your bookmarks file or something? ------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 28 07:23:16 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model II stuff! Message-ID: <981028082316.238000b0@trailing-edge.com> > >unclear as to how to translate 77-track x 34 (256byte) sector media > >to 80-track x 18 (512byte) sector media. I know it will fit fine -- > >whether it can be used directly if an adapter is made to connect the > >new drives to the old hardware I don't know > > Again, this is well discussed in Q16 ("Can I use the newer floppy > drives on my old machine?") of the CP/M FAQ. See > > http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/CPM-faq/faq.html > And I'm sorry but this was a CPM FAQ not an > 8' fd faq. Much less a well-discussed one. I disagree. In between Q14 and Q16 of the CP/M FAQ, and the reference to Sydex's tools, everything you need to know to make images from physical floppies and physical floppies from images on a PC-clone is in the FAQ. Q16 will even tell you how to use a 5.25" or 3.5" floppy on your Model II. > FAQs were created to answer > repetitious questions not to eliminate the need for particular group > discussion of the theme. But it *is* a FAQ in many other forums, and has been repeatedly discussed on CLASSICCMP in the past, as well. > Reminds me of the old guilds where smithy methods > should not be discussed among the profane. I don't remember you posting > objections to any other thread. Why this ? I'm not objecting to the thread; I'm simply pointing the group towards an already extremely comprehensive source of information, because this is a better practice than repeating stuff that most folks here have already seen many times before. Tim. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 28 07:41:55 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit! Message-ID: <199810281341.AA19873@world.std.com> < So, while a 256 or 512 bit data bus is usefull (and < already in use in main frames - only called data path), < even a 128 Bit address bus is just nonsense. There is some truth to this. DEC went to 64bits as they knew 32bits were not enough for some applications. They were also trying to design for the next 20years to repeat the life of the VAX (32bits). Now, having a large address space isn't completely about filling it. It's about having addressing modes and arithmetic adaquate to deal with large data objects. In the 32bit model 4gb is the limit without thrashing. Those limits was exceeded by disk farms with tens of Gigabytes of databases and solving large mathmatical models. The current example would be doing windows graphics programming (1280x1024x16m) using only 16bit pointers, you do a lot of thrashing to get the the next 64k chunk and there will be a lot of them! That was the problem that spawned the VAX! Brief history lesson: The PDP11 was reachhing the point where a fully filled machine (4mb of ram) could not process in one lump the large problems like weather models or MRI data. It was NOT a speed issue it was 16 bits made for too small a data pointer. Also doing 32/64bit math required more steps (or FP hardware) as the registers were all 16bit. So to add two 24bit numbers on a PDP-11 required multiple steps and that was a speed impact. Going to 32bit registers made that a single instruction and paid back as speed without processors running at faster clocks. If it were speed the 11/74 would have been an ongoing event rather than the 4-6 than did get made. The birth of the VAX (and DGs Eclipse) grew from this need. So computer designers bumped the size of things to assure they could comfortably address the likely largest object they can resasonably expect to see for some time to come. Not so they could have 2^64bytes of ram but because they already have 2^40bytes of disk farm! All this was no surprize to computer designers. They foresaw it in the 60s knowing that larger memories and disks were needed to solve the problems that were growing. The datapath issue is strictly about speed as the VAX could have an 8bit data bus (in a trade for speed) like the 68008. While it has a big effect on speed it has no interaction with addressability. It's addressing the system problem of multiple devices competing for the common resource (MEMORY). By making the datapath wide you can grab several bytes at the same time and while the cpu is dealing with that the ram is available to run a IO cycle to a disk system or other IO. How big wide enough is, that is determined by how much silicon you have. Allison From Marty at itgonline.com Wed Oct 28 08:25:00 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: KEITH, WE HARDLY KNEW YOU was: Noise levels (yak yak) Message-ID: <1998Oct28.092422.1767.153276@smtp.itgonline.com> Dear Mr. Whitehead, You could have used some discretion like most of us on this list and just read the strings you found worthwhile. Instead you insult virtually everyone on the list and have created yet another flame war which has no end in sight. Please be advised to re-read the Classiccmp FAQ which describes how to unsubscribe and 'don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.' Sincerely, Marty Mintzell ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/26/98 3:21 PM Well this list used to be good, now it has degenerated into 80%+ noise. I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers What does a modern college education have to do with old computers I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. Go back and re-read what this list was supposed to be about. 99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites. k.j.whitehead@massey.ac.nz Keith Whitehead Electronics Technician Electronics Services Institute of Fundamental Sciences Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand 5301 ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct26.152119.1767.72634; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:21:19 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id MAA12116; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:18:29 -0800 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA50832 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:17:27 -0800 Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with SMTP id MAA099 85 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:17:24 -0800 Received: from [130.123.73.41] (actually px-mac26) by cc-server9.massey.ac.nz with SMTP(PP); Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:15:54 +1300 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:14:32 +1200 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Keith Whitehead To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 28 09:00:13 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: KEITH, WE HARDLY KNEW YOU was: Noise levels (yak yak) In-Reply-To: <1998Oct28.092422.1767.153276@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Marty wrote: > You could have used some discretion like most of us on this list and > just read the strings you found worthwhile. Instead you insult > virtually everyone on the list and have created yet another flame war > which has no end in sight. Please be advised to re-read the Classiccmp > FAQ which describes how to unsubscribe and 'don't let the door hit you > in the ass on the way out.' Trying to kill the messenger, eh? People are trying to have a riot. Let them. It'll burn out when they run out of pent-up-frustation energy. This is an open list. That means: * kids who have yet to learn self-restraint * adults who have made conscious decisions to be assholes * bozos who post first and think later, if at all * lonely geeks for whom this is their main social outlet * as well as perfectly reasonable people like me :-) An open list will never be noise free, but here are some things you can do to quell the noise: 1) Don't be a bozo. 2) When you detect a bozo, send them a "SHUTUP, BOZO!" message *privately* -- not to the list! 3) Always include on-topic content in your messages to the list. If you can't think of any, take that as a sign to not post! ObCC: I saw a Zuse 23 last week at the Deutsches Museum in Bonn. Pretty cool (the first transitorized Zuse), but that was just about the only classic computer they had on display. -- Doug From ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net Wed Oct 28 09:11:19 1998 From: ArfonRG at DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Replying to people (was TRS-80 model II) In-Reply-To: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5DCC@NTS_EXCH> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981028091119.009363b0@texas.net> At 02:36 PM 10/27/98 -0600, you wrote: >Just a note to people: when you e-mail someone directly; don't use an >email-address that has something like "your name >" in it. Using Microsoft Outlook >(which I do), it just shows with the SMTP portion hidden. After >the mail bounces, I'm less inclined to type the whole message again and edit >your user name. So that reply to you offering to sell you the complete >Altair for $50.... well, you didn't get it. > >I mean, it's a direct e-mail, not the mailing list. If you think I am going >to spam you... come on. > >Ok, now that, I've jumped all over Arfon, I have to say it's nothing >personal and I apologize in advance. it's just not the first time that it's >happened. it's just that I don't even see anything until the mail bounces. Tis Okay Matt. I usually don't even think to change the Reply when I email people personally. This is not intended as an insult or anything but, if I were you, I'd get rid of that Outlook virus and use a better emailer. Arfon "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From gram at cnct.com Wed Oct 28 10:37:27 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: DOS disks? References: <199810271852.LAA13158@oa.ptloma.edu> <36363B99.1E4E9A76@cnct.com> <19981027230436.9096.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <36374847.3E60478F@cnct.com> Eric Smith wrote: > > > though of course it's tricky building a 720k 6.22.system disk. > > Not particularly. Stick a 3.5 inch double-density (not high-density) disk > into a standard PC 3.5 inch drive, and say "format b: /s /f:720". > > Unlike 5.25 inch drives, where there are interchange problems with 360K > disks written in 1.2M drives, high-density 3.5 inch drives can write 720K > format with no problems. This is because both the 720K and 1.44M formats use > the same track pitch and track width. That makes a 720k boot disk. When I typed "system disk" I meant one with an appropriate collection of utilities, which with code bloat can be hard to fit on a 720k disk -- since "edit" needs "?basic" etc. MS-DOS was still tolerable at 3.3, 4.x was a null, 5.x was a null on steroids, 6.x just got worse and worse. Praise whatever gods might be for Caldera's resurrection of DR-DOS (which I do have to download sometime soon -- since I'm actually using OpenDOS when I feel like playing DOS games on my Linux boxen). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Wed Oct 28 10:38:09 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: MS_DOS 2.11 (Was: DOS disks? References: Message-ID: <36374871.55AD0D54@cnct.com> Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > > Very interesting! I learn something new every day! But, was the > > source available to the public? If not, it's not much different from NT > > now, which makes source available under an NDA. > > NOT to the public. But a lot looser than any other version of MS-DOS > before or since, since basically they WANTED hardware manufacturers to be > able to customize IO.SYS. > > Source for MSDOS.SYS and COMMAND.COM remained thoroughly unavailable. The source for 2.11 merely required a pledge of the first-born son of the CEO or product line manager in the contract, the NT source requires the CEO to grant the rights to every child of every employee unto the third generation as computed by an early Pentium in which three equals infinity. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Oct 28 09:34:40 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Armiton In-Reply-To: <01be0270$8c285a00$e9c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Mike wrote: > Does anyone have a spare (Radio Shack circa '84/5) Armitron. It was a robot > arm toy. An interfacing project with an Atari 800 never got off the ground > back then and I would like to finally follow through... Just wander back to your local RS... Its that time of year again and (at least out here) they were in stock (in mass quantity) when I was there last week along with the dreaded 'Super Armitron'!. Also... Spotted in the local Fry's... (ducking and running) on the same shelf with the LEGO 'MindStorms' (a MOST COOL gadget I might add) was a robot arm kit. Dont' recall the manufacturer, but it was rather neat looking. Clear plastic used mostly so you can watch the motors and linkages at work. IIRC it was prices at about the same as RS wants for the Armitron. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From gram at cnct.com Wed Oct 28 10:38:49 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...) References: <36361C16.755829D2@rain.org> <4.1.19981027213556.00a02100@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <36374899.85FFDACD@cnct.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > > Ok, I have to draw a line on this one Sam ... > > At 05:36 PM 10/27/98 -0800, Sam wrote: > >Well, if the guy who bought the Atari 1200XL thinks he got fair market > >value, I'm happy for him. But I don't want to have to pay some schlub > >$600 for an Atari 1200XL the next time I see one go up for sale (luckily I > >won't have to, I paid less than $5 for mine at a thrift store, and if I > >want another I'll probably find it for around the same price). What that > >guy thinks is a "fair price" does NOT equate to "fair market". There is a > >huge distinction. > > There IS a huge distinction, there is no such thing as a "fair price." > Its a myth, it don't exist, deal with it. If this "schlub" as you so > affectionately refer to them knew about your thrift store (and I can > guarantee you he will) then you won't find Atari's in thrift stores and > you won't find them at swap meets and the _only_ way to get one will > be to pay more than what some other "schlub" is willing to pay. And if > the price is too rich for you then you won't own one. What's a "fair" > price for a Picasso? a Rembrandt? That is exactly what a market IS > and it is actually _incredibly_ fair. Without external intervention it > will settle on a price that people are willing to pay. To use the 1200XL > example.. Word will get around that a 1200XL goes for 600 on Ebay, so > enterprising folks who have been in thrift stores will start scrounging > around for them, and then they will all put them up on eBay and the > large number of them will cause the price to come down, probably way > down but it may not get down to a level you are comfortable paying. "Fair Market Value" is a price set by bureaucrats and is rarely related to the real world (except in the case of real estate, since that will be the baseline for your property tax gouge). "Free Market" is the way things are supposed to work. Somebody sells at a price he is willing to accept, somebody buys at a price he is willing to pay. _Both_ win. If one deals from a position of knowledge while the other deals from a position of ignorance, the knowledge was available (so was the ignorance). "Caveat emptor" has been common for two millenia, the counterpart "Caveat vendor" is also part of our heritage. The invisible hand is always there. (Me, I won't pay a dime for an Atari 8-bit or anything else with a 6502 -- this harms nobody -- the price I'd pay at auction for an NCR Tower Unix system is a secret between me and my cat). > For heaven's sake, you think there is a "fair" price for a house in > Silicon Valley? Of course not, the MARKET supports a median house price > that is well above what any ordinary mortal could pay for, but only > because there are enough people willing to pay that price. When people > said, "This is f__ ridicululous!" in 1991 guess what, houses stayed > on the market until the price came down. When I bought my house I > offered nearly 100K UNDER the asking price, got the house and it STILL > lost 15K in value over the next couple of years! Now its going back up, > great, but that will change when the guys from eBay who got rich on > the IPO have all bought there houses. Your house has never changed in _value_ unless you've made improvements or let it decay or be otherwise damaged, the appraised price has varied according to the market. I realized a long time ago that I would never own a house in California, the prices driven by the local market were higher than any value I could perceive. That was _my_ _subjective_ view of the value -- others have different values. (My subjective view of the value being affected by the property tax rates in Los Angeles). > Economics, not just an idea it's a discipline that actually predicts > these things pretty accurately... Ludwig von Mises is always worth reading, as is Milton Friedman. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From ArfonRG at Texas.Net Wed Oct 28 09:47:18 1998 From: ArfonRG at Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: OOPS!! Sorry people! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981028091119.009363b0@texas.net> References: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5DCC@NTS_EXCH> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981028094718.00933420@texas.net> All, Sorry for posting that 'supposed to be private' e-mail, I just hit the reply button to Matt's letter and didn't check the "To:" like I should have. Arfon "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 28 09:46:04 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening In-Reply-To: <364895e1.774703044@insight> References: <199810280346.WAA09036@gate.usaor.net> <199810280346.WAA09036@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981028094604.00ca0370@pc> At 04:02 AM 10/28/98 GMT, Bill Richman wrote: [stinky poo-poo and anal talk removed] The First Amendment is really nifty and all, but if you behaved like this if we were all meeting in person, people would tend to not want to be around you. Perhaps you and Sam can find another forum to discuss the art of obscenity and its role in casual friendly gatherings, be they electronic or physical. I know it might sound delightfully anal to you, but in an essentially unmoderated forum such as this, *you* must control *yourself* - no one else can do it for you, not even Sam. :-) Unless of course you two do it to each other consensually, and then it's none of my business, but it would probably be considered off-topic if you do it here, unless it somehow involved computer equipment more than ten years old. And don't forget, too much lubricant is almost enough, especially social lubricants like politeness and netiquette. - John From bill_r at inetnebr.com Wed Oct 28 09:53:09 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Noise levels have become deaf Message-ID: <199810281550.JAA13947@falcon.inetnebr.com> > >On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: >> That's OK, Bill. There's no need for me to send any particular response >> to this public display of social retardation, other than to acknowledge > ****** >> that you are seriously off-topic and really need to shut up. > >Better put the filter on your Email Bill !!! > >> But if it'll make you feel better, then I'll be the better man and let you >> have the last word publicly. > ******** > >Oops I better put the Sam Slammer back in too! > >> If it'll get you to finally calm down then it'll be well worth it. Go >> ahead and reply to this message with another off-topic tantrum and I >> shall not spew a word about it. > >I a speachless - and apprehensive..... > >> You're welcome. >> >> On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Bill Richman wrote: >> > No, it was intentionally posted to the list. I'm tired of Sam shutting >> > down reasonable discussions by declaring them "off-topic" while in the >> > same breath getting the last word, while simultaneously insulting people >> > for no good reason. I've got a half dozen e-mails filled with Sam's >> > bile and hate from the last time I dared defend someone's right to an >> > opinion other than his. I just thought it might be educational for >> > people to see the festering hatred and insecurity that's exposed when >> > you scratch Sam's surface. That is, of course, unless he decides to be >> > a pussy and flame me in e-mail again. (Fair warning, Sam - anything you >> > e-mail me is going on this list for everyone to see and judge for >> > themselves.) > >Well - that last time Sam 'went overboard' I couldn't shut HIM up until >I threatened to go to his VCF and hand out printed copies of his emails >to the attendees 8-) > >Maybe we should get together and do a 'book' on him! > >I will say that he gets really sweet right before a VCF and then goes >power hungry with the list afterwards... but then everything settles >down to a nice dull roar. Until about March when he knows he has to >start being nice again - he will have one more flare up before Mr. Nice >Guy has to come out and play again. I have gotten used to it. Try to >hang in there Bill. > >BC > > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From bill_r at inetnebr.com Wed Oct 28 09:55:39 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Noise levels have become deaf Message-ID: <199810281553.JAA14454@falcon.inetnebr.com> Hmm... Looks like Sweet Sam decided that if he couldn't shout me down, he'd just slam the door in my face. What a guy! --- Return-Path: Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:21:11 PST Reply-To: listproc@u.washington.edu Sender: listproc@u.washington.edu From: University of Washington ListProcessor To: bill_r@inetnebr.com Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN X-UIDL: ee07c31fcdb321395d34af85335a15b0 Dear user, your request UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP has been successfully processed. You have been removed from list CLASSICCMP (classiccmp@u.washington.edu). Thank you for being with us. > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com Wed Oct 28 09:54:08 1998 From: MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model II stuff! Message-ID: <55C43C657A38D21187A100A0C9CFE4690C5DCF@NTS_EXCH> Very much my fault there. Sorry. I'm in Dallas, Tx, USA. Specifically, the machine is in my "garage of doom" in North Garland. -Matt Pritchard Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip.Belben@pgen.com [SMTP:Philip.Belben@pgen.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 1:38 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: TRS-80 Model II stuff! > > > > > > > Speaking of which, I have a complete Model II in storage; anyone > > interested? > Please remember when posting to the list to say where things are! > > If it's in the UK, Yes please I am definitely interested. > > If it's elsewhere in Europe, Yes, I am possibly interested. > > If it's not in Europe, Yes, I'd love one, but I can't afford the shipping. > > Philip. > > > > From erd at infinet.com Wed Oct 28 10:01:24 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: NCR tower In-Reply-To: <36374899.85FFDACD@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Oct 28, 98 11:38:49 am Message-ID: <199810281601.LAA26069@user2.infinet.com> > (Me, I won't pay a dime for an Atari 8-bit or anything else with a 6502 -- I will. Let me help you rid your area of unsightly 6502 systems. > the price I'd pay at auction for an NCR Tower > Unix system is a secret between me and my cat). I may be able to help you with this. Which variety of NCR are you looking for? I have something with a Multibus, a couple of 5.25" full-height drives (I don't know if ESDI or ST506), and at least one serial board. What kinds of specs can I search for that will mean something to you? ISTR that these use 15-pin console cables. If what I have is interesting enough to worry about freight, I'm in Ohio. Calculate accordingly. I'd rather let it go to someone on the CC list than deal with eOverpay. -ethan From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Oct 28 10:10:35 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: NCR tower In-Reply-To: <199810281601.LAA26069@user2.infinet.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 28, 98 11:01:24 am Message-ID: <199810281610.JAA11604@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 618 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981028/f050d0e1/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Oct 28 10:14:29 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II stuff!) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 27, 98 06:20:52 pm Message-ID: <199810281614.JAA14294@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 792 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981028/253e7f73/attachment.ksh From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Wed Oct 28 10:25:11 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: DOS disks? Message-ID: >> When I typed "system disk" I meant one >> with an appropriate collection of utilities, which with code bloat >> can be hard to fit on a 720k disk -- since "edit" needs "?basic" etc. Get the GNU DOS port of vi - has the benefit of being a standard, very powerful, reliable and takes up 120KB or so (OK, that's a lot more than ideal for an editor, but at least you don't need all the extra garbage that you have to have with standard MS-DOS 'edit') - of course, if you've never used vi before, you're gonna hate it :) (not wanting to kick off an off-topic thread in light of the current 'problems' on this list, anyone know how to get MS exchange client 4 to do the auto-include of the '>' quote chars above? I'm sick of having to do it by hand! Email privately, please! :) cheers Jules From Marty at itgonline.com Wed Oct 28 10:27:13 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Noise levels have become deaf Message-ID: <1998Oct28.111935.1767.153361@smtp.itgonline.com> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/28/98 10:56 AM Hmm... Looks like Sweet Sam decided that if he couldn't shout me down, he'd just slam the door in my face. What a guy! --- Return-Path: Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:21:11 PST Reply-To: listproc@u.washington.edu Sender: listproc@u.washington.edu From: University of Washington ListProcessor To: bill_r@inetnebr.com Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN X-UIDL: ee07c31fcdb321395d34af85335a15b0 Dear user, your request UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP has been successfully processed. You have been removed from list CLASSICCMP (classiccmp@u.washington.edu). Thank you for being with us. > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists5.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct28.105618.1767.73348; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:56:18 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id HAA18374; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 07:53:33 -0800 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id HAA60506 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 07:53:29 -0800 Received: from falcon.inetnebr.com (falcon.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.1]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id HAA29 424 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 07:53:28 -0800 Received: from mail.inetnebr.com (sentinel.walco.com [206.222.203.20]) by falcon.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA14454; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:53:27 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199810281553.JAA14454@falcon.inetnebr.com> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:55:39 -0600 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: bill_r@inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu, danjo@xnet.com X-Sender: bill_r@inetnebr.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Oct 28 12:27:34 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: KSC was Re: Road trip/vintage sources In-Reply-To: <19981027144759.2505d0a1.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981028122734.2cc769ce@intellistar.net> At 03:07 PM 10/27/98 -0800, you wrote: >Doug said: > >On another note: Does anyone in Florida have more information >about the plans to tear down the original control room at >the Kennedy Space Center? (It was on the news) > > I live about 30 miles from there but I haven't heard of it. If they do, I'll be first in line to buy stuff! I missed an auction a few months ago where they were selling off stuff (most origianal NASA) that was used as props in making Apollo 13 and some of the other space movies. Let me know if you hear any more about their plans. Joe From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Oct 28 10:49:21 1998 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981028114921.0093a210@mail.30below.com> At 04:25 PM 10/28/98 -0000, you wrote: >Get the GNU DOS port of vi - has the benefit of being a standard, very >powerful, reliable and takes up 120KB or so (OK, that's a lot more than >ideal for an editor, but at least you don't need all the extra garbage >that you have to have with standard MS-DOS 'edit') - of course, if >you've never used vi before, you're gonna hate it :) [snip] Well, not if you're accustomed to TS-EDIT on the Tandy Color Computers! vi is a superset (I believe -- been a long time since I used TS-EDIT) but the CoCo clone is a fairly complete implementation of it. One thing about vi / TS-EDIT: 'tis a pain in the rear to use, until you get accustomed to the commands. If you do become highly accustomed to editor, you can go *very fast* with it. Boy, I miss those good old days... ;-) "Merch" From franke at sbs.de Wed Oct 28 12:07:05 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Doug and the Zuses (was:Re: KEITH, WE HARDLY KNEW YOU was: Noise Message-ID: <199810281647.RAA29067@marina.fth.sbs.de> > I saw a Zuse 23 last week at the Deutsches Museum in Bonn. Pretty > cool (the first transitorized Zuse), but that was just about the only > classic computer they had on display. Oh, did they pull of the DDR 1 Meg chip from display ? I belive this is the most funny Display _and_ a thing to think about with its implications. Gruss Hans Disclaimer: And of coure, I told him to come to Munich and see the real stuff like a Z3 or 2002 (No, not the 70s BMW, but the first (or maybe second, if the Mailuefterl group is right) running fuly transistorised machine) but no, he just had the less interesting part ... :) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From bill at chipware.com Wed Oct 28 11:14:45 1998 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific C3 OEM available Message-ID: <000a01be0296$76215b00$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> I have exchanged email with this guy already, seems like a nice guy. The machine is in Chicago. Correspond directly with him if interested. AZOTIC wrote: >Any one have an idea what a old >OHIO SCIENTIFIC OEM C-3 >is worth. 8" floppy drives. rs232 >terminal, tripple proccessors >even got the repair manuals. I >plugged it in, and it still works. >any collectors ? I need some new >toys. From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 28 11:15:10 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Doug and the Zuses (was:Re: KEITH, WE HARDLY KNEW YOU was: Noise In-Reply-To: <199810281647.RAA29067@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > Oh, did they pull of the DDR 1 Meg chip from display ? > I belive this is the most funny Display _and_ a thing > to think about with its implications. They still had that display, but I don't remember falling over due to its implications. Maybe the sign was in (East) German. What did I miss? (A museum of eastern european technology would be pretty cool.) They also had a nice robot walker, and a machine based on hydrolic (sp?) switches. I'd love to fire-up a machine that used hydrolics or pneumatic switches, but the power button didn't work :-( > And of coure, I told him to come to Munich and see the > real stuff like a Z3 or 2002 (No, not the 70s BMW, but > the first (or maybe second, if the Mailuefterl group is > right) running fuly transistorised machine) but no, he > just had the less interesting part ... :) Hmm, the Z3 is also a BMW model. I think you may have stumbled upon their source for car names :-) -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Wed Oct 28 12:34:49 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: DOS disks? References: Message-ID: <363763C9.929B848B@cnct.com> Julian Richardson wrote: > > >> When I typed "system disk" I meant one > >> with an appropriate collection of utilities, which with code bloat > >> can be hard to fit on a 720k disk -- since "edit" needs "?basic" etc. > > Get the GNU DOS port of vi - has the benefit of being a standard, very > powerful, reliable and takes up 120KB or so (OK, that's a lot more than > ideal for an editor, but at least you don't need all the extra garbage > that you have to have with standard MS-DOS 'edit') - of course, if > you've never used vi before, you're gonna hate it :) I was using vi before I was using edlin -- side effect of being a Radio Shack tech support type when Xenix showed up before MS-DOS. (And the MKS vi port worked great on the Tandy 2000). The advice was for somebody wanting functional floppies for a DG-1, I don't assume everybody has my taste in utilities -- and while I have the GNU vi for DOS, I hardly ever use it, since I only run DOS myself in an emulator under Linux -- so I use GNU vi in a proper environment most of the time, and it ain't the DOS port. And yes, I'd rather forgotten about the mode command under MS-DOS 2.11 being so variable (dead brain cells) -- and I suspect that a DG-1 specific copy would be beneficial. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Wed Oct 28 12:38:48 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: DOS disks? References: <3.0.1.32.19981028114921.0093a210@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <363764B8.4B334998@cnct.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > > At 04:25 PM 10/28/98 -0000, you wrote: > > >Get the GNU DOS port of vi - has the benefit of being a standard, very > >powerful, reliable and takes up 120KB or so (OK, that's a lot more than > >ideal for an editor, but at least you don't need all the extra garbage > >that you have to have with standard MS-DOS 'edit') - of course, if > >you've never used vi before, you're gonna hate it :) > > [snip] > > Well, not if you're accustomed to TS-EDIT on the Tandy Color Computers! vi > is a superset (I believe -- been a long time since I used TS-EDIT) but the > CoCo clone is a fairly complete implementation of it. > > One thing about vi / TS-EDIT: 'tis a pain in the rear to use, until you get > accustomed to the commands. If you do become highly accustomed to editor, > you can go *very fast* with it. > > Boy, I miss those good old days... ;-) After over 15 years, the vi command set has worn rather deep grooves in my brain -- to the horror of the EMACS preachers I deal with. And yes, TSEDIT is a fine subset and I still use it as well. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From aaron at wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 28 11:34:39 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific C3 OEM available In-Reply-To: <000a01be0296$76215b00$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the heads up...I've been looking for this machine for a long, long time! I just fired off an email, hopefully not too late... Thanks again, Aaron On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > AZOTIC wrote: > >Any one have an idea what a old > >OHIO SCIENTIFIC OEM C-3 > >is worth. 8" floppy drives. rs232 > >terminal, tripple proccessors > >even got the repair manuals. I > >plugged it in, and it still works. > >any collectors ? I need some new > >toys. From danjo at xnet.com Wed Oct 28 11:51:18 1998 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Noise levels have become deaf Message-ID: What - you got one too???? Now I can not swear it is Samnie's handiwork but after get a copy of the Unsubscribe message from the listproc admin I am pretty sure I will be able to hunt down the source. It's more of a nuisance attack anyway... Tho I think DOS is more like it.... > From listproc@u.washington.edu Wed Oct 28 11:45:06 1998 > Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:22:33 PST > From: University of Washington ListProcessor > To: danjo@xnet.com > Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > > Dear user, > > your request > > UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > > has been successfully processed. > > You have been removed from list CLASSICCMP(classiccmp@u.washington.edu). > Thank you for being with us. BC From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Oct 28 12:03:13 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: Noise levels have become deaf In-Reply-To: from "Brett" at Oct 28, 98 11:51:18 am Message-ID: <199810281803.LAA10618@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 767 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981028/2ce54d39/attachment.ksh From ai705 at osfn.org Wed Oct 28 12:08:38 1998 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: A Proposal (was - Re: Noise levels increasing and....) In-Reply-To: <199810281138.MAA19712@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > >>> even breaking the lists in two - on and off topic > >>> so that ppl with common interests can also talk about other things (like > >>> both lists would die though > > > I actually had a similar thought and it could work. Is it > > possible to create an off-topic mailing list that is not publicly > > advertised and cannot be subscribed to unless one were already a > > subscriber to the on-topic one? Those that want the on-topic list > > could get that, those who want both would get both and no one could > > subscribe to only the off-topic one. The unwritten rule is that no new > > topic could be spontaneously generated on the off-topic one and the > > only new threads allowable would be those banished from the on-topic list. > > Of course threads would be allowed to meander and mutate once they were > > released to the off-topic list. This is just a thought. It certainly > > would allow for these brief hot torrents of opinion on semi off-topic > > material to run their course without inconveniencing those who wish to > > only see hardcore tech info. The off-topic list would be like a sidebar > > only accessible to those who read the on-topic one. > > Nice talk, but just think how hard it seams to be just to > change the Subject line at the right moment AND to get all > participants into changing it - not to mention the time delay. > This is just an international thing - when I get up and have > a first look at it Allison is still sleeping, Uncle Roger > (or the other US West Coast guys) are just about to find their > sleeping position, while Olminkhof is right about to leave > the office - I've seen these things from other lists and > news groups. It is just impossible. It is even impossible > to live such a policy within a worldwide collaboration tool > for a project. Even when corporate and special rules try > to enforce it. I still say it is a worthy experiment. I do not know if it can be implemented at the listserver, but that is after all the point of software, to implement a specific goal. > > And Moderation is just the dead of any list (maybe beside > a anouncement list for 0190 (1-900) services, where they > don't need any spontanous answer. > Agreed. The point is to provide the tool for self moderation. I have reasonable confidence that members of this list could manage to make use of such a tool to effectively move 90% of the semi off topic material voluntarily so the main list could function normally. The key is that List "B", the off topic one, cannot be subscribed to by someone "off the street". It would only be available as an option to those who sign on to List "A". That way everybody understands what their responsibilty is. The current list continues to be public; the new list becomes a private sidebar, signed on to by what will probably be a subset of "A" (perhaps half?). It seems to me this list will have periodic flareups of festering wounds like West Coast abundance vs. East Coast drought, US insensitivity vs. the rest of the world, Ebay users vs. Ebay haters (and some of us are both!!) and ego conflict in general. Hoping this latest batch will die down and go away and nothing will surface again is similar to the y2K "ostrich" approach. Plus the List "B" could also be used for other near off topic subjects. Who knows what will come up? I think it is at least worth a short term 2 or 3 month experiment. -- Stephen Dauphin From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 28 12:23:42 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 Subject: A Proposal (was - Re: Noise levels increasing and....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What's the point in proposing another list? If you want to try the experiment, build it. Make it happen. ObCC: I picked up a Burroughs C3207 calc the other day. Nixie tubes and transistors. It doesn't go, and I have no idea how to make it go again. All I know is that Nixies are high-voltage, so I'm reluctant to poke my fingers in there. -- Doug From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Oct 28 10:47:13 1998 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit! Message-ID: <802566AB.0060AB16.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Hans Franke wrote: >>>> I therefore see address buses growing at 16 bits every 30 years. That's >>>> just over a bit every 2 years - slower than I expected but not much. >>>> Someone (I forget who) said that memory chips double in capacity every >>>> 18 months. This would give 16 bits in 24 years. > >>> Interesting szenario, especialy when connected to the Mores Law >>> (didn't he tell this regarding integration ?). > >> Thanks. That's the one I'm thinking of - the amount of memory you get on >> the same area of silicon doubles every 18 months. > > Basicly I think its about integrations and transistor > equivalents, but this is just linear to the size of memorys. > > In fact, to come back to the original question, Arfon > just took doubling of address space and doubbling of > data bus width for the same thing, but in fact they > are two different functions - widening data bus is > linear, while widening address bus is to the square > (sorry, my mathematical english just stops here). > This means doubble the data bus just doubbles the > date transfer rate (the only thing the data bus is > needed for) or w'=w+w. But doubbling the address bus > is putting the address range (and thats what the > address bus is for) to the square or r'=r*r. > > So, while a 256 or 512 bit data bus is usefull (and > already in use in main frames - only called data path), > even a 128 Bit address bus is just nonsense. Hmm. "Square" isn't the best way of putting it. In English we generally call that an "exponential" or "power" function: for an address bus of n bits the size of the memory is 2^^n words (pronounced "two to the power of n"). That's what I was getting at in my post. I agree totally that data paths should be as wide as possible. It wasn't just vaxen (Good post, Allison. A lot of very good points that I hadn't thought of) and mainframes that did that - the PERQ was a 16 or 20 bit machine but the memory data path was 64 bits wide (Help! Tony, you know more about this!) and fetched 4 words at a time for the processor to chew on, then 4 words for the video, 4 words for the I/O etc. Huge increase in speed. Address bus should be as wide as you think you might need plus a bit more. As Allison said (again! Why oh why did I delete her post?) you want your processor to be able to think about huge memories even if you can't build them and have to swap to disk. Philip. From franke at sbs.de Wed Oct 28 14:06:26 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Doug and the Zuses (was:Re: KEITH, WE HARDLY KNEW YOU w Message-ID: <199810281846.TAA17060@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> Oh, did they pull of the DDR 1 Meg chip from display ? >> I belive this is the most funny Display _and_ a thing >> to think about with its implications. > They still had that display, but I don't remember falling over due to its > implications. Maybe the sign was in (East) German. What did I miss? (A > museum of eastern european technology would be pretty cool.) I might be proved wrong, but I belive this chip had a vital role to turn down the wall. In 1985 the Eastern German government decided that they had to pull up with a 1 Meg chip to show that their system is able to do all the same fine things than the west, all of us might temember that the 1 Meg thing was kind of journalists pussy when talking about the future back then. They already cloned the 80286. For the next years they poured all resources within electronic and process development into this project. It was almost like the idea of building a a PDP-8 from scratch that has been around :) Of course, they already had a technology to produce 64k and prototype 256k, but without any help from outside it's kind of uncomfortable. Short before the wall came down, they finished, but at what cost: the whole development was sucked up into this single project - anything els was almost like stopped even production of actual components suffered. So this project added a lot to the economoc problems witch eventualy lead to the end of their system You know - people without video games and home computers tend to think about dangerous things (). I'm not telling that this development has been the mayor reason, but it added stress to an already stressed system. Gruss Hans P.S.: There are only parts of the Z23 on display in Bonn - basicly only the drumm and drumm controll (AFAIR) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Oct 28 13:05:37 1998 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Nixie stuff (Was: Re: A Proposal (was...)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981028140537.0093b2b0@mail.30below.com> At 12:23 PM 10/28/98 -0600, you wrote: >ObCC: I picked up a Burroughs C3207 calc the other day. Nixie tubes and >transistors. It doesn't go, and I have no idea how to make it go again. >All I know is that Nixies are high-voltage, so I'm reluctant to poke my >fingers in there. I seem to remember there was a single Nixie tube for sale on Haggle.com... for around $3.00 or so (at the time...) Don't they run on 170 volts or somesuch wild figure??? "Merch" From ai705 at osfn.org Wed Oct 28 13:01:24 1998 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: A Proposal (was - Re: Noise levels increasing and....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > What's the point in proposing another list? If you want to try the > experiment, build it. Make it happen. > Read the proposal. It isn't strictly a separate list. It is a list connected by a one-way umbilical cord to the current list. It can't be done by just creating another list. It has to be done on the current server. Whether the list software is malleable enough to be shaped to the task, I do not know. I am leaving it to others to comment on the technical issue. The idea is to experiment and create a parallel flood channel for certain things that run hot for a couple of weeks but are not completely on topic. I don't think this is a "bozo" idea, and I hope you will ponder its implications for more than a few minutes. -- Steve From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 28 13:11:25 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Julian Richardson wrote: > >> When I typed "system disk" I meant one > >> with an appropriate collection of utilities, which with code bloat > >> can be hard to fit on a 720k disk -- since "edit" needs "?basic" etc. > > Get the GNU DOS port of vi - has the benefit of being a standard, very > powerful, reliable and takes up 120KB or so (OK, that's a lot more than > ideal for an editor, but at least you don't need all the extra garbage > that you have to have with standard MS-DOS 'edit') - of course, if > you've never used vi before, you're gonna hate it :) I've got what I think is an even better DOS version of vi. Since it was made in 1989 its almost on topic. The cool thing about this is that its only 44K. It's fast. And it takes advantage of the IBM keyboard, allowing you to use the arrow keys and the cursor control keys (home, end, pgup, pgdn), plus delete and insert. Insert maps to 'i', delete maps to 'x'. And when you use these special keys (arrows, insert, delete) it automatically puts you back in 'escape' mode so you don't have to manually press escape to exit from insert mode. I'll e-mail it to anyone who wants it. I've been using it since the early 90s and make it part of my standard install on my DOS machines. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Oct 28 13:26:01 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 28, 98 11:11:25 am Message-ID: <199810281926.LAA22724@saul10.u.washington.edu> > I've got what I think is an even better DOS version of vi. Since it was > made in 1989 its almost on topic. > I'll e-mail it to anyone who wants it. I've been using it since the early > 90s and make it part of my standard install on my DOS machines. That sounds interesting. Could you send a copy? BTW, I renewed the SWAC manual. -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Oct 28 13:27:59 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 28, 98 11:11:25 am Message-ID: <199810281927.LAA03330@saul10.u.washington.edu> oops, that was supposed to go to Sam only. ELM needs a "reply to sender" key. It could also use a "process the bounce report to recover the original message which I erased" key too, while we're at it. :) -- Derek From aaron at wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 28 13:29:48 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Classiccmp Friendly Pinout Page Update/Request Message-ID: Ok, I've gotten most of my stash transcribed into text documents on the site. The exception is the bus section, which contains a list of those pinouts that I have but am still working on. Anyway, what this really is is a request to people to dig through their piles of old docs and add some pinouts that aren't there yet. Tony Duell has offered to do PERQ machines, and anyone is welcome to contribute anything that's not there already. I put a file in the "pinouts" directory named "contributors.txt" which contains specific info about who is working on what. Please respond to me privately about this. URL: http://www.prinsol.com/classiccmp/ Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." --> Scott Draves From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Oct 28 13:30:45 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: TRS Model 100 needed Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981028110947.519f7956@ricochet.net> At 07:02 AM 10/17/98 -0700, you wrote: >How much should a working TRS Model 100 laptop computer cost? (I'm >thinking of getting one for a portable amateur packet setup)? Anywhere from $5 to $200, depending on options, condition, venue... I got a 32K model in nice shape at a flea market for $14 (Thanks Rax!), and have paid over $100 for a mint condition one, with RJ-11 cable, acoustic cups, tape player, 32K, hard shell case, floppy, manuals, slip case, etc. If you just want one to use, you should be able to get one pretty quick for $50 or so. If you're willing to wait, you may find one at a thrift shop or flea market for much less. Keep in mind, also, that other versions are available: The Nec PC-8201, PC-8201a, PC-8300, Olivetti M-10, Kyocera KC-85, TRS-80 Model 102 and Model 200 all are either very similar or identical. Note that the NEC PC-8401A, Olivetti M-15, and Radio Shack Model 600 are *not* related, other than in similar names. Also, I would be more than happy to trade a true m100 for pretty much any of the others (except maybe the PC-8201a) along with some cash if they didn't suit your needs (not enough memory, no modem, etc.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From franke at sbs.de Wed Oct 28 14:59:44 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: A Proposal (was - Re: Noise levels increasing and....) Message-ID: <199810281939.UAA28870@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> What's the point in proposing another list? If you want to try the >> experiment, build it. Make it happen. > Read the proposal. It isn't strictly a separate list. It is a list > connected by a one-way umbilical cord to the current list. It can't be > done by just creating another list. It has to be done on the current > server. Whether the list software is malleable enough to be shaped to the > task, I do not know. I am leaving it to others to comment on the > technical issue. The idea is to experiment and create a parallel flood > channel for certain things that run hot for a couple of weeks but are not > completely on topic. I don't think this is a "bozo" idea, and I hope you > will ponder its implications for more than a few minutes. I belive your idea could still be done on a second server. For your proposed testrun, a real check about the members of ClassicCmp to allow access for the sidebar list is not needed. The listserver will only be made public thru this list, so any subscription from outside is kind of uncommon. And even if there are some few, they shouldn't change the result in a real way. If the idea is right, an add on for the 'real' server might be made. Or we keep the second and just exchange the member list every other week to check the data base and we get another foot to stay on. Merging both lists into one folder should be no problem for any mail client out there (also splitting it up again into several theme folders). Gruss Hans P.S.: No, Steve, no comment on the subject, it's just a technical response. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 28 14:03:42 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: A Proposal (was - Re: Noise levels increasing and....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Stephen Dauphin wrote: > Read the proposal. It isn't strictly a separate list. It is a list > connected by a one-way umbilical cord to the current list. It can't be > done by just creating another list. It has to be done on the current > server. Whether the list software is malleable enough to be shaped to the > task, I do not know. I am leaving it to others to comment on the > technical issue. The idea is to experiment and create a parallel flood > channel for certain things that run hot for a couple of weeks but are not > completely on topic. I don't think this is a "bozo" idea, and I hope you > will ponder its implications for more than a few minutes. I didn't comment on the merit of the idea, but nobody is going to do this for you. AFAICT, the original list admin headed for Nirvana, SD a year or so ago to become a Unix guru. The list is just free-floating in cyberspace with nobody to maintain it. I'd like to experiment with some listserver ideas myself someday, but there's no shortage of ideas, just a shortage of implementation time. If you want to try something like you've proposed, you'll have to do it yourself. -- Doug From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 28 13:59:26 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: <36374847.3E60478F@cnct.com> (message from Ward Donald Griffiths III on Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:37:27 -0500) References: <199810271852.LAA13158@oa.ptloma.edu> <36363B99.1E4E9A76@cnct.com> <19981027230436.9096.qmail@brouhaha.com> <36374847.3E60478F@cnct.com> Message-ID: <19981028195926.16012.qmail@brouhaha.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > though of course it's tricky building a 720k 6.22.system disk. I replied: > Not particularly. Stick a 3.5 inch double-density (not high-density) disk > into a standard PC 3.5 inch drive, and say "format b: /s /f:720". Ward replied: > That makes a 720k boot disk. When I typed "system disk" I meant one > with an appropriate collection of utilities, which with code bloat > can be hard to fit on a 720k disk -- since "edit" needs "?basic" etc. To me, "tricky" and "takes a few minutes of tedious drudgery" are entirely different things. By your definition, your original claim is exagerated and irrelevant anyhow, because it's "tricky" building a 6.22 "system disk" on any size floppy. 6.22 comes with so much useless crap that I was forced to sort through it even to make a "system disk" on a 2M hard disk partition. From aknight at mindspring.com Wed Oct 28 13:58:47 1998 From: aknight at mindspring.com (Alex Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Nixie stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981028140537.0093b2b0@mail.30below.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19981028145847.0068c1e4@mindspring.com> At 02:05 PM 10/28/98 -0500, you wrote: >>ObCC: I picked up a Burroughs C3207 calc the other day. Nixie tubes and >>transistors. It doesn't go, and I have no idea how to make it go again. >>All I know is that Nixies are high-voltage, so I'm reluctant to poke my >>fingers in there. > >I seem to remember there was a single Nixie tube for sale on Haggle.com... >for around $3.00 or so (at the time...) > >Don't they run on 170 volts or somesuch wild figure??? I have a Burroughs C3350 and it supplies +200V to the nixie tube drivers. You do have to be careful when poking around, and keep those fingers out of the area of the display. FWIW it's not that unusual to have HV running around in calculators, the Panaplex 7-segment displays (which came along after Nixies) also have about 200V running around inside. You gotta figure if it's got a neon glow, there's HV inside. Later, Alex Knight Calculator History & Technology Archive Web Page http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Oct 28 14:24:14 1998 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: TRS Model 100 needed In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981028110947.519f7956@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981028152414.0095c540@mail.30below.com> At 11:30 AM 10/28/98 -0800, you wrote: >Note that the NEC PC-8401A, >Olivetti M-15, and Radio Shack Model 600 are *not* related, other than in >similar names. The Model 100/102/200 had one thing in common with the Tandy 600: They used the same printer cable. Otherwise, the Tandy 600 was a totally different critter with an OEM Manufacturer of Zenith whereas the 100/102/200 line was OEM'd by Kyocera. BTW, the day after my mail machine at work went on holidays, my home machine got caught up in an upgrade snafu as well, so I've not been connected to e-mail for the last 10 days or so... (scary thought, but) I'm back. Just as a reminder, I have 2 listservers on these machines: Tandy 100/102/200/Kyocera list: m100list.30below.com To subscribe, send a mail with subscribe in the Subject to: m100-request@list.30below.com Tandy 600/Zenith list: m600list.30below.com To subscribe, send a mail with subscribe in the Subject to: m600-request@list.30below.com Just thought you'd like to know. See ya, "Merch" From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 28 14:49:03 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: TRS Model 100 needed In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981028110947.519f7956@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > Keep in mind, also, that other versions are available: The Nec PC-8201, > PC-8201a, PC-8300, Olivetti M-10, Kyocera KC-85, TRS-80 Model 102 and Model > 200 all are either very similar or identical. Note that the NEC PC-8401A, > Olivetti M-15, and Radio Shack Model 600 are *not* related, other than in > similar names. I haven't gotten around to checking the FCC ID of my 8401A. Who made it? (NEC, I assume). There was also an NEC PC-8500, similar to the 8401, but with a 24-line display I believe. Can anybody verify that the "A" suffix indicates a model for the American market on the NEC models? -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 28 13:10:41 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 27, 98 07:02:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4810 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981028/ef5cc779/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 28 13:23:54 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <025001be0242$ab8575a0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from "Geoff Roberts" at Oct 28, 98 05:44:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3173 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981028/b22f4e5d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 28 13:28:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Armiton In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Oct 28, 98 07:34:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 652 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981028/89a022e2/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Wed Oct 28 15:27:56 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Anyway, with 10 base T, there may be a dozen cable coming out from the > room where the bub is to other machines in the house. With 10 base 2, > there's normally only one coax cable. Comprimise! The hamfests these days seem to be littered with Cabletron 10base2 hubs (miniMMACs). Anyway, at work we have been ripping out all of the 10base2 and replacing it with 10baseT. We have had too many problems with the coax - problems causing whole segments to go away, and other nasty things. Anyway, a great deal of the old stuff is going home with me. I think I may now have the greatest collection of 10base2 transcievers ever assembled (kind of like that guy that collects floppy jackets). > Anyway, the hubs can fail. Not as much as 10base2 old cabling! > Since when have any _classic_ computers had 100Mbps network ports? Heck, > I'm looking out for any original 3Mbps stuff :-) Fibre! (real networking) William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Wed Oct 28 15:30:59 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Seems that way. I may have found a source of new ones, but the price is a > > bit much. > > S/H ones seem to disappear as soon as they come out of service. RCS/RI has a bunch of 10baseT transcievers for sale - brand new units! We need the money! I think we also have some 10baseF stuff, too. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 28 15:29:26 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981028152926.00f29a10@pc> At 07:10 PM 10/28/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > >> around corners, over door frames, etc. And 4-port hubs can be had for >> less than $50 these days. A worthwhile investment for having a more > >_4_ port hubs??? Surely you jest :-). Us workstation types have 4 >machines per desk with ethernet ports :-). In the $80-$100 range, the hubs can have a BNC on the back, too, allowing you to easily mix network types. - John From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 28 16:10:57 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: <19981028195926.16012.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 28 Oct 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > By your definition, your original claim is exagerated and irrelevant > anyhow, because it's "tricky" building a 6.22 "system disk" on any size > floppy. 6.22 comes with so much useless crap that I was forced to sort > through it even to make a "system disk" on a 2M hard disk partition. Let me help you guys out. Here's a suggested configuration for a good DOS 6.22 system disk. Both configurations will fit on a 720K diskette. The config with the options will leave about 53K. The standard config only takes up about two-thirds of the diskette. For the full config, all you would need is a decent editor that fits in under 53K and you're set. I suggest my DOS vi that I mentioned previously (it would leave you with 8K). Otherwise you can use anything up to 200K or so with the standard install. DISCLAIMER: I used DOS 6.20 to test this all, but 6.22 was just a patch that changed some minor things so there should be no filesize related problems. Shoot me if there are. To install, format a 720K diskette with DOS 6.22: FORMAT /U /F:720 /S A: DOS will install DBLSPACE.BIN which you don't need, so ATTRIB -R -S -H DBLSPACE.BIN and then delete it (at least it does this on 6.20). The standard install includes the bare minimum plus some handy programs. The optional install includes all the stuff that would make your life easy when working with a vintage DOS computer, such as INTERLNK and INTERSVR for transferring files over the Parallel/Serial ports, MSD for spying on your system's config, etc. Plus some superfluous stuff just to prove you can have a good system disk in under 720K. Take these extras out for even more room for an editor. I don't know how small EDLIN was but I would only install that if I couldn't find anything better (and even then I would be loath to install that foul piece of yak dung). FILENAME FILESIZE OPTIONAL ------------ -------- -------- ANSI.SYS 9,065 * ATTRIB.EXE 11,208 * CHKDSK.EXE 12,241 COMMAND.COM 54,619 DEBUG.EXE 15,718 DELTREE.EXE 11,111 * DISKCOMP.COM 10,748 DISKCOPY.COM 13,335 DOSKEY.COM 5,861 * FDISK.EXE 29,334 FORMAT.COM 22,916 INTERLNK.EXE 17,197 * INTERSVR.EXE 37,426 * IO.SYS 40,566 MEM.EXE 32,502 MODE.COM 23,569 MORE.COM 2,545 MOVE.EXE 18,319 MSD.EXE 158,470 * MSDOS.SYS 38,138 PRINT.EXE 15,656 SETVER.EXE 12,015 SHARE.EXE 10,912 SUBST.EXE 18,526 SYS.COM 9,432 UNDELETE.EXE 26,416 * XCOPY.EXE 16,930 Standard System Disk: 397,686 bytes Standard with Options: 662,975 bytes Throw this vi on there and you're set: VI.EXE 45,085 Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 28 16:13:16 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit! Message-ID: <199810282213.AA06397@world.std.com> < Address bus should be as wide as you think you might need plus a bit mor < As Allison said (again! Why oh why did I delete her post?) you want you < processor to be able to think about huge memories even if you can't buil < them and have to swap to disk. Actually the addres bus can be smaller than register size. For example we could build an 80 bit machine with 60bit address busses. The 60 bits is more than enough to address most likely memory needs for a long while yet if you need to do address math or other math 80bit long registers may make it much easier. The datapath bus can be any size as well but larger is generally better. The assumption of symetry is likely the most false. Allison From erd at infinet.com Wed Oct 28 16:16:40 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 28, 98 04:27:56 pm Message-ID: <199810282216.RAA01702@user2.infinet.com> > > > Anyway, the hubs can fail. > > Not as much as 10base2 old cabling! Amen. I had a problem with a demo of Amiga networking (10 years old - on topic!) that turned out to be crappy terminators: the resistor was crimped over, not soldered to the outside of the BNC. There was a plastic end-cap that kind of kept the two elements in contact, but not very well. Two good terminators later, the demo went off without a hitch. I fixed the entire bag of bad ones. It's not easy to solder to chromed steel. > > Since when have any _classic_ computers had 100Mbps network ports? Heck, > > I'm looking out for any original 3Mbps stuff :-) I've never seen 3mpbs stuff, not even for VAXen, but I have seen 1Mb StarLAN stuff from AT&T (who also made 10Mbps StarLAN, a not-entirely-10base-T- compatible twisted-pair cabling standard). > Fibre! (real networking) I've got two 10Base-T hubs in my house with 10Base-FL converters, linked by a single fibre pair connecting the basement and computer room. The upstairs hub also has 10Base-2, and is serving my older coax-only machines. The 10Base-FL stuff is all going with me to the new place to interconnect the house and the quonset hut, as soon as I can get my hands on some fibre to bury. I might be able to get some surplus from a friend who owns an ISP that just upgraded their NOC. They have about 150 feet left over. Now all I need is some fibre-short-haul modems to back up the Ethernet. -ethan From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 28 16:23:35 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > The Coax is no harder to install than twisted pair. It's no more likely > to be stepped on and there are proper wallplates etc if you're worried > about it getting pulled. And I find the strain relief on the BNC to be a > lot better than that on an RJ45. I don't. Its far easier for a coax to get pulled out of the BNC connector than it is for a twisted-pair cable to be pulled out of an RJ-45. > Hmm.. Fitting a plug on a piece of twisted pair behind a machine rack is > not fun. 8 wires to get into the right channels, brown and orange colours > to tell apart, no thank you. > > The BNC was _designed_ to be trivial to fit, actually. The best way to do > it is to use a solder type plug and ignore the instructions :-). Then : > > Put the nut and rubber washer over the cable. Remove about 3/4" of the > outer covering. Fan out the braid, put the T-shapped ferrule over the > inner insulator and push it down inside the braid. Trim off the braid > around the outside of the ferrule, cut the inner insulation (but not the > inner wire) flush with the end of the ferrule (use a sharp knife for > this), pull off the inner insulation, tin the centre wire. Put on the > little disk insulator, cut the inner wire a couple of mm beyond that, put > the pin on, solder in place. Put the outer insulator and plug body on the > end of that, slide up the nut/washer and tighten it all up. So you're saying its easier to work with a soldering iron, solder, a pair of dykes, a knife and a 3-piece BNC connector behind a machine rack, as opposed to a one-piece RJ-45 that requires one tool to cut, strip and crimp? Wow. You ARE a glutton for punishment. > It took longer to type that than it does to do it. I can crimp a BNC connector in a few seconds with the right tool, and I don't bother with the soldering. Crimping seems to do the trick quite nicely. > A couple of tips. Get the right cable and plugs. There are several sizes > of BNC plug (not just 50 Ohm and 75 OHm - acutally different sizes of > ferrule, etc) to fit different cables. A lot of hassles start when you > use the wrong plug. Also get a couple of the special flat spanners for > tightening up the plugs. A lot easier than trying to use pliers. And don't use any cable other than RG-58A/U or RG-58C/U for thinnet. If you use anything else (i.e. straight RG-58) you're going to start running into trouble if you begin to add nodes or have long distances in between nodes. > Anyway, with 10 base T, there may be a dozen cable coming out from the > room where the bub is to other machines in the house. With 10 base 2, > there's normally only one coax cable. Like I said, as long as you are connecting computers that are within a few feet of each other then coax is a good choice. > > around corners, over door frames, etc. And 4-port hubs can be had for > > less than $50 these days. A worthwhile investment for having a more > > _4_ port hubs??? Surely you jest :-). Us workstation types have 4 > machines per desk with ethernet ports :-). Ok, an 8- or even 16-port hub can be had for around $100 or less. > Since when have any _classic_ computers had 100Mbps network ports? Heck, > I'm looking out for any original 3Mbps stuff :-) > > Which reminds me. 10 base 2 is on-topic here (over 10 years old). I am > not so sure about 10 base T > > > Of course, this assumes your machine can use 100baseT. Old machines like > > your PERQs and PDP11's would be quite happy with 10baseT. > > > > I thought this was classiccmp.... Well, ten years from now you'll regret using coax when you want to plug that Pentium II with a PCI 100baseT ethernet card onto your network :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 28 16:26:17 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Kurzweil KVS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just got a Kurzweil AI KVS PPC (from an overstocked list member). Anybody know anything about this box? According to Ray Kurzweil himself, I think this might be the first commercial speech recognition box (with 1000 word vocab) from circa 1985: http://www.kurzweiltech.com/techfirsts/voicereport.htm Any additional info would be much appreciated (like how it works). -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 28 16:28:36 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > Anyway, with 10 base T, there may be a dozen cable coming out from the > > room where the bub is to other machines in the house. With 10 base 2, > > there's normally only one coax cable. > > Comprimise! The hamfests these days seem to be littered with Cabletron > 10base2 hubs (miniMMACs). Anyway, at work we have been ripping out all of > the 10base2 and replacing it with 10baseT. We have had too many problems > with the coax - problems causing whole segments to go away, and other > nasty things. Anyway, a great deal of the old stuff is going home with me. Sounds like you may have mismatched cable segments, cables bent at angles exceeding the spec, possibly non-standard cabling, etc. Still, removing the coax is a good move. Your life will be made much, much easier. > I think I may now have the greatest collection of 10base2 transcievers > ever assembled (kind of like that guy that collects floppy jackets). Cool, get pictures of all of them and start a web site! > > Anyway, the hubs can fail. > > Not as much as 10base2 old cabling! I agree! I've never had a hub fail. On the other hand I've had coax cables fail spontaneously (maybe because I didn't go thru the trouble of soldering them :) However, I see Tony's point about 20 years from now trying to replace a failed ASIC in a hub. By that time though, good luck finding RG-58 coax either. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 28 16:36:04 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Kurzweil KVS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > I just got a Kurzweil AI KVS PPC (from an overstocked list member). > Anybody know anything about this box? According to Ray Kurzweil himself, > I think this might be the first commercial speech recognition box (with > 1000 word vocab) from circa 1985: > http://www.kurzweiltech.com/techfirsts/voicereport.htm Nope. Don't have any specific references for you but I know of a few commercial speech rec boxes way before 1985. In fact, I just got one a few weeks ago thats from around 1983 or so. And I've seen one (didn't buy it) from around 1981. Also, there were plenty of telco applications that used speech rec from the 70s. Unless you used "1000 word vocab" to qualify the claim, in which case I still think there may be an earlier contender. Speech recongition goes back a long way, perhaps as far back as the 50s. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Oct 28 12:38:04 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II stuff!) In-Reply-To: <13399371091.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: Message-ID: <199810282241.RAA12170@smtp.interlog.com> On 28 Oct 98 at 5:03, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > [www.warez.com/home.htm] > > Umm... That's warez and porn. Did you post the wrong line from your > bookmarks file or something? > ------- Talk about m-bare-ass-ment . It should of course been www.diskwarez.com Must have been some some sort of freudian subliminal slip. You guys found the porn site quicker than I tho. Until I was tipped to leave out the html file, all I got was error 404 site not found. Hmmm is the relationship between warez and porn hormonal teen-age angst ? The real site does have a lot of an other sort of interesting stuff available tho. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Oct 28 16:44:23 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. References: Message-ID: <36379E46.EAA5EAF6@bigfoot.com> For a small (up to 30 node) network I *prefer* the 10base 2 coaxial setup, since there's no fooling with hubs. Tees, terminators, and ready made cabling of various lengths are relatively inexpensive from places like CNA ( http://www.cnaweb.com/ ) and others and there's generally no chance of messing it up. UTP cat 5 cabling for the 10baseT systems is very easy to work with as well but the cost of hubs generally kicks that in the butt. While I have a crimper for just about any coaxial (twinax, BNC, etc) as well as modular connector (RJ11 to RJ45) I prefer to get ready made cabling where it will work. Obviously if you're running coax or cat 5 cables through conduit to wall plates and all you will have to crimp at least one end on but generally most people with home or small business networks don't sweat this at all and leave it exposed. As for the damage factor, every setup is differet and the ways to protect it are generally the job of the installer, just like it is when installing phone wiring. Cable ties, clips, etc are all available to neatly bundle the finished setup and keep the cabling out of harm's way. If you do get a bad end just repair it whether it's twinax, coax, cat 5, twisted pair, etc. My biggest pain is in installing those :"IBM Data" type connectors on the end of 4 wire ethernet data cabling. It should be easy but dependant upon the gauge of the internal conductors, you may have a bit of a time making the insulation displacement contacts accept the wires without breaking them. Summary: Use what works best for you and your project. If you want to be a biog burly hairy guy and make every one of your own connections, then do it. Otherwise get factory done ones, just as cheap in many cases. Now if someone could make twinaxial connectors as easy to assemble as others we'd be set on S/34-38 and AS/400 systems! Sam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The Coax is no harder to install than twisted pair. It's no more likely > > to be stepped on and there are proper wallplates etc if you're worried > > about it getting pulled. And I find the strain relief on the BNC to be a > > lot better than that on an RJ45. > > I don't. Its far easier for a coax to get pulled out of the BNC connector > than it is for a twisted-pair cable to be pulled out of an RJ-45. > > > Hmm.. Fitting a plug on a piece of twisted pair behind a machine rack is > > not fun. 8 wires to get into the right channels, brown and orange colours > > to tell apart, no thank you. > > > > The BNC was _designed_ to be trivial to fit, actually. The best way to do > > it is to use a solder type plug and ignore the instructions :-). Then : > > > > Put the nut and rubber washer over the cable. Remove about 3/4" of the > > outer covering. Fan out the braid, put the T-shapped ferrule over the > > inner insulator and push it down inside the braid. Trim off the braid > > around the outside of the ferrule, cut the inner insulation (but not the > > inner wire) flush with the end of the ferrule (use a sharp knife for > > this), pull off the inner insulation, tin the centre wire. Put on the > > little disk insulator, cut the inner wire a couple of mm beyond that, put > > the pin on, solder in place. Put the outer insulator and plug body on the > > end of that, slide up the nut/washer and tighten it all up. > > So you're saying its easier to work with a soldering iron, solder, a pair > of dykes, a knife and a 3-piece BNC connector behind a machine rack, as > opposed to a one-piece RJ-45 that requires one tool to cut, strip and > crimp? Wow. You ARE a glutton for punishment. > > > It took longer to type that than it does to do it. > > I can crimp a BNC connector in a few seconds with the right tool, and I > don't bother with the soldering. Crimping seems to do the trick quite > nicely. > > > A couple of tips. Get the right cable and plugs. There are several sizes > > of BNC plug (not just 50 Ohm and 75 OHm - acutally different sizes of > > ferrule, etc) to fit different cables. A lot of hassles start when you > > use the wrong plug. Also get a couple of the special flat spanners for > > tightening up the plugs. A lot easier than trying to use pliers. > > And don't use any cable other than RG-58A/U or RG-58C/U for thinnet. If > you use anything else (i.e. straight RG-58) you're going to start running > into trouble if you begin to add nodes or have long distances in between > nodes. > > > Anyway, with 10 base T, there may be a dozen cable coming out from the > > room where the bub is to other machines in the house. With 10 base 2, > > there's normally only one coax cable. > > Like I said, as long as you are connecting computers that are within a few > feet of each other then coax is a good choice. > > > > around corners, over door frames, etc. And 4-port hubs can be had for > > > less than $50 these days. A worthwhile investment for having a more > > > > _4_ port hubs??? Surely you jest :-). Us workstation types have 4 > > machines per desk with ethernet ports :-). > > Ok, an 8- or even 16-port hub can be had for around $100 or less. > > > Since when have any _classic_ computers had 100Mbps network ports? Heck, > > I'm looking out for any original 3Mbps stuff :-) > > > > Which reminds me. 10 base 2 is on-topic here (over 10 years old). I am > > not so sure about 10 base T > > > > > Of course, this assumes your machine can use 100baseT. Old machines like > > > your PERQs and PDP11's would be quite happy with 10baseT. > > > > > > > I thought this was classiccmp.... > > Well, ten years from now you'll regret using coax when you want to plug > that Pentium II with a PCI 100baseT ethernet card onto your network :) > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From mbg at world.std.com Wed Oct 28 16:52:52 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. References: Message-ID: <199810282252.AA14515@world.std.com> Regarding 10base2 failures.... I'd like to mention that I've had 10base2 throughout my apartment for some 10+ years now, and never had a failure of the physical network. I've had one or two transceivers fail, but that was it. Even at work, I'm using the same 10base2 cabling I've used since about the 1980 time-frame when I was working on network device drivers for RT-11. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 28 16:59:38 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Kurzweil KVS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Unless you used "1000 word vocab" to qualify the claim, in which case I > still think there may be an earlier contender. Speech recongition goes > back a long way, perhaps as far back as the 50s. Yes, commercial and 1000 word vocab were the qualifiers; let me know if you still challenge the claim, otherwise it gets immortalized in a web page soon. And given that AI didn't really get started until around 1960, and that storage for digitized speech would have been very expensive back then, I'd be interested in any references you could provide for speech recognition way back in the 1950's. -- Doug From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Oct 28 17:06:29 1998 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <36379E46.EAA5EAF6@bigfoot.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981028180629.009e8d20@mail.30below.com> At 04:44 PM 10/28/98 -0600, you wrote: >UTP cat 5 cabling for >the 10baseT systems is very easy to work with as well but the cost of hubs >generally kicks that in the butt. While I have a crimper for just about any coaxial >(twinax, BNC, etc) as well as modular connector (RJ11 to RJ45) I prefer to get >ready made cabling where it will work. Obviously if you're running coax or cat 5 >cables through conduit to wall plates and all you will have to crimp at least one >end on but generally most people with home or small business networks don't sweat >this at all and leave it exposed. [snip] Personally, I prefer Cat5 over coax mainly because I'm part owner of an ISP/Computer store and we invested in a high-dollar Cat5 crimping tool. When I build my house next year, every room will have (at least) 1 cat5 jack... why? Because I also have a top-notch punchdown tool... but I didn't pay much for it. Got it at a garage sale... for 20 cents! (Lady of the house had the sale... Man of the house worked for the phone company...) Now, if you're talking _Distance_... ethernet is not the way to go. I have no idea how far Token Ring can run, but I believe the standard for 2.5 Megabit ArcNet is 1 kilometer between active hubs... and coax. That's what I'm going to hook up the garage and rental home with. (And yes, my Arcnet equipment is over 10 years old...) Besides, I surely trust coax over Cat5 for less-than-pristine conditions (like outdoor, and in Upper Michigan, that counts!). Just MHO, "Merch" As for the damage factor, every setup is differet >and the ways to protect it are generally the job of the installer, just like it is >when installing phone wiring. Cable ties, clips, etc are all available to neatly >bundle the finished setup and keep the cabling out of harm's way. If you do get a >bad end just repair it whether it's twinax, coax, cat 5, twisted pair, etc. My >biggest pain is in installing those :"IBM Data" type connectors on the end of 4 >wire ethernet data cabling. It should be easy but dependant upon the gauge of the >internal conductors, you may have a bit of a time making the insulation >displacement contacts accept the wires without breaking them. > >Summary: Use what works best for you and your project. If you want to be a biog >burly hairy guy and make every one of your own connections, then do it. Otherwise >get factory done ones, just as cheap in many cases. > >Now if someone could make twinaxial connectors as easy to assemble as others we'd >be set on S/34-38 and AS/400 systems! > >Sam Ismail wrote: > >> On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > The Coax is no harder to install than twisted pair. It's no more likely >> > to be stepped on and there are proper wallplates etc if you're worried >> > about it getting pulled. And I find the strain relief on the BNC to be a >> > lot better than that on an RJ45. >> >> I don't. Its far easier for a coax to get pulled out of the BNC connector >> than it is for a twisted-pair cable to be pulled out of an RJ-45. >> >> > Hmm.. Fitting a plug on a piece of twisted pair behind a machine rack is >> > not fun. 8 wires to get into the right channels, brown and orange colours >> > to tell apart, no thank you. >> > >> > The BNC was _designed_ to be trivial to fit, actually. The best way to do >> > it is to use a solder type plug and ignore the instructions :-). Then : >> > >> > Put the nut and rubber washer over the cable. Remove about 3/4" of the >> > outer covering. Fan out the braid, put the T-shapped ferrule over the >> > inner insulator and push it down inside the braid. Trim off the braid >> > around the outside of the ferrule, cut the inner insulation (but not the >> > inner wire) flush with the end of the ferrule (use a sharp knife for >> > this), pull off the inner insulation, tin the centre wire. Put on the >> > little disk insulator, cut the inner wire a couple of mm beyond that, put >> > the pin on, solder in place. Put the outer insulator and plug body on the >> > end of that, slide up the nut/washer and tighten it all up. >> >> So you're saying its easier to work with a soldering iron, solder, a pair >> of dykes, a knife and a 3-piece BNC connector behind a machine rack, as >> opposed to a one-piece RJ-45 that requires one tool to cut, strip and >> crimp? Wow. You ARE a glutton for punishment. >> >> > It took longer to type that than it does to do it. >> >> I can crimp a BNC connector in a few seconds with the right tool, and I >> don't bother with the soldering. Crimping seems to do the trick quite >> nicely. >> >> > A couple of tips. Get the right cable and plugs. There are several sizes >> > of BNC plug (not just 50 Ohm and 75 OHm - acutally different sizes of >> > ferrule, etc) to fit different cables. A lot of hassles start when you >> > use the wrong plug. Also get a couple of the special flat spanners for >> > tightening up the plugs. A lot easier than trying to use pliers. >> >> And don't use any cable other than RG-58A/U or RG-58C/U for thinnet. If >> you use anything else (i.e. straight RG-58) you're going to start running >> into trouble if you begin to add nodes or have long distances in between >> nodes. >> >> > Anyway, with 10 base T, there may be a dozen cable coming out from the >> > room where the bub is to other machines in the house. With 10 base 2, >> > there's normally only one coax cable. >> >> Like I said, as long as you are connecting computers that are within a few >> feet of each other then coax is a good choice. >> >> > > around corners, over door frames, etc. And 4-port hubs can be had for >> > > less than $50 these days. A worthwhile investment for having a more >> > >> > _4_ port hubs??? Surely you jest :-). Us workstation types have 4 >> > machines per desk with ethernet ports :-). >> >> Ok, an 8- or even 16-port hub can be had for around $100 or less. >> >> > Since when have any _classic_ computers had 100Mbps network ports? Heck, >> > I'm looking out for any original 3Mbps stuff :-) >> > >> > Which reminds me. 10 base 2 is on-topic here (over 10 years old). I am >> > not so sure about 10 base T >> > >> > > Of course, this assumes your machine can use 100baseT. Old machines like >> > > your PERQs and PDP11's would be quite happy with 10baseT. >> > > >> > >> > I thought this was classiccmp.... >> >> Well, ten years from now you'll regret using coax when you want to plug >> that Pentium II with a PCI 100baseT ethernet card onto your network :) >> >> Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >> Ever onward. >> >> Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 >> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! >> [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > > From pjoules at joules.enterprise-plc.com Wed Oct 28 17:10:48 1998 From: pjoules at joules.enterprise-plc.com (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sour In-Reply-To: <199810281218.NAA20276@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > > However, skip-diving is now officially banned I > > have been quite strongly warned off several times, once for just looking at > > the skip! The warnings came from quite high up, passed down through my > > boss. > > Seams to be an attitude of all management - bann whatever > you don't undestand I think the attitude of many companies in the UK is "if we wanted to give it away we would do so, once we have decided to throw it away it stays thrown away". As far as the legal position is concerned I am aware of sucessful prosecutions for theft from piles of rubbish left by the kerb for collection by the dustmen and also for skip diving in the skips outside a local authority tip. In both cases the theft was said to have been from the local authority as they own the rubbish once its owner has thrown it out. I think with the modern ideas about environmentally friendly disposal of waste it would be appropriate for the local authorities to turn a blind eye to 'scavengers' like ourselves and thus reduce the amount of useful stuff which ends up in landfill ;-) Regards Pete From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 28 17:36:49 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Pete Joules wrote: > > Seams to be an attitude of all management - bann whatever > > you don't undestand > > I think the attitude of many companies in the UK is "if we wanted to give > it away we would do so, once we have decided to throw it away it stays > thrown away". Let me add a little perspective to this. Say you ran a company, and being a good collector and occasional dumpster diver, you had a policy that anything broken could be taken home by employees if the company decided they didn't want to fix it. So the hacker employees are happy because they get some nice stuff they can fix and use in their spare time. But what happens when employees start intentionally breaking things, or worse, pulling small parts out of equipment to make it look broke, so they can then take it home and replace the missing fuse or chip? I think that is why you have the rather seemingly unreasonable policies about discard equipment. > I think with the modern ideas about environmentally friendly disposal of > waste it would be appropriate for the local authorities to turn a blind > eye to 'scavengers' like ourselves and thus reduce the amount of useful > stuff which ends up in landfill ;-) Until one loathesome scavenger cuts a finger off on some particularly sharp piece of metal and sues the owner, the trash company, the maker of the trash container for not making it so they could get inside in the first place, etc. (at least in the U.S.) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From tomowad at earthlink.net Wed Oct 28 17:37:36 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: FS: Assembly Language on 360/370 book Message-ID: <199810282337.PAA01093@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> I was considering keeping this, but I came to the realization it is incredibly unlikely I'll ever have the desire to learn assembly on the 360. :-) Assembly Language Fundamentals 360/370, OS/VS, DOS/VS by Rina & Joshua Yarmish 768 pages, hardback $5 shipped. Tom Owad -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 28 15:32:05 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Nixie stuff (Was: Re: A Proposal (was...)) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981028140537.0093b2b0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Oct 28, 98 02:05:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 812 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981028/2442fd7f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 28 15:36:02 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Nixie stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19981028145847.0068c1e4@mindspring.com> from "Alex Knight" at Oct 28, 98 02:58:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 900 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981028/b95c63b4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 28 15:29:11 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit! In-Reply-To: <802566AB.0060AB16.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Oct 28, 98 05:47:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2689 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981028/c8b48e95/attachment.ksh From go at ao.com Wed Oct 28 17:58:04 1998 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Another thought on 10baseT vs 10Base2: was Re: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199810282358.PAA32150@office.ao.com> I just had to stick in my 2.1 cents worth (inflation, you know...) on this issue. I will *never again* use 10base2 for plant wiring for the simple reason that 10base2 (and 10base5) provide a ready path for "ground loops" between all the equipment sharing the cable. It's true that the "grounds" are "supposed" to be isolated (to the tune of several Kvolts) from the computer connection, but, believe me: "sh*t happens." And the results can be dangerous. 10baseT is designed to be isolated at every connection point in the "star" configuration (high-isolation transformer coupling,) so there is a much less likely path for the "big ugly voltage" from one piece of defective equipment that just happens to be shorted to the Ethernet 10base2 cable. You don't get killed when you reach behind your computer and grab the Ethernet cable and suddenly find it has 480vac on it due to some stupid short in a control cabinet. If the 10baseT cable is shorted, the hub has a high potential, but it never makes it out to any of the other cables plugged into the hub. Both of these scenarios assume correctly isolated cable-to-interface connections. It's just there is nothing isolating the bad stuff from you when you touch the cable shield. The necessary hub on 10baseT keeps the bad stuff from getting past the first short - assuming you *do* use a hub... And making 10baseT connections (with the proper 50US$ tool) is MUCH FASTER than making coax connections, if speed is important. Of course, the better (best?) approach is 10baseF, but it isn't readily available for us with home installations (at least not at the price *I* want to pay.) Gary From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Oct 28 18:04:26 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Noise levels have become deaf Message-ID: <199810290010.TAA07971@gate.usaor.net> Exactly what I do to other loud-mouthed salesmen. If they want to babble about crap, go the the neighbor's house. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Bill Richman > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf > Date: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 10:55 AM > > Hmm... Looks like Sweet Sam decided that if he couldn't shout me down, he'd > just slam the door in my face. What a guy! > > --- > > Return-Path: > Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:21:11 PST > Reply-To: listproc@u.washington.edu > Sender: listproc@u.washington.edu > From: University of Washington ListProcessor > To: bill_r@inetnebr.com > Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > X-UIDL: ee07c31fcdb321395d34af85335a15b0 > > Dear user, > > your request > > UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > > has been successfully processed. > > You have been removed from list CLASSICCMP (classiccmp@u.washington.edu). > Thank you for being with us. > > > > Bill Richman > incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r > (Home of the COSMAC Elf > microcomputer simulator!) > From gram at cnct.com Wed Oct 28 19:20:37 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: DOS disks? References: Message-ID: <3637C2E4.43E4BE1@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > DISCLAIMER: I used DOS 6.20 to test this all, but 6.22 was just a patch > that changed some minor things so there should be no filesize related > problems. Shoot me if there are. File sizes are similar, some of the names were changed to protect the guilty (Doublespace replaced by Drivespace due to the requirement to remove Stacker code -- which had undocumented repercussions, if you ever found a need to restore any data backed up from a DOS 6.0-6.21 system onto a 6.22 system -- turns out some of that Stacker code was there in the MSBACKUP program as well, but nobody ever mentioned it in the 6.22 documentation -- non-trivial, but not a factor on a floppy system anyway). > FILENAME FILESIZE OPTIONAL > ------------ -------- -------- > ANSI.SYS 9,065 * > ATTRIB.EXE 11,208 * > CHKDSK.EXE 12,241 > COMMAND.COM 54,619 > DEBUG.EXE 15,718 > DELTREE.EXE 11,111 * > DISKCOMP.COM 10,748 > DISKCOPY.COM 13,335 > DOSKEY.COM 5,861 * > FDISK.EXE 29,334 > FORMAT.COM 22,916 > INTERLNK.EXE 17,197 * > INTERSVR.EXE 37,426 * > IO.SYS 40,566 > MEM.EXE 32,502 > MODE.COM 23,569 > MORE.COM 2,545 > MOVE.EXE 18,319 > MSD.EXE 158,470 * > MSDOS.SYS 38,138 > PRINT.EXE 15,656 > SETVER.EXE 12,015 > SHARE.EXE 10,912 > SUBST.EXE 18,526 > SYS.COM 9,432 > UNDELETE.EXE 26,416 * > XCOPY.EXE 16,930 > > Standard System Disk: 397,686 bytes > Standard with Options: 662,975 bytes Seems a reasonable subset. A few items I'd not bother with (SUBST comes to mind) but all of them are fairly small programs. > > Throw this vi on there and you're set: > > VI.EXE 45,085 I'd like a copy of this as well. Not that I'm likely to use the extra keymaps (old habits are hard to break, and I find myself trying to use ctrl-B and ctrl-F to page around Netscape with limited success). But I'm always willing to check out a new incarnation of an old friend. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 28 18:04:41 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <199810282216.RAA01702@user2.infinet.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 28, 98 05:16:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 862 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981029/49440d95/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 28 18:11:32 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 28, 98 02:23:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2605 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981029/c0be3a93/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 28 18:16:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 28, 98 02:28:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 907 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981029/01027aaf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 28 18:01:53 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 28, 98 04:27:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1010 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981029/a23edb94/attachment.ksh From aaron at wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 28 19:01:50 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:47 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 17:28:06 EST >From: AZOTIC@aol.com >To: aaron@wfi-inc.com >Subject: Re: Ohio Scientific > > >DEAR AARON: > >I will be putting the computer on the e-bay auction >some time soon. The wieght is under 100lbs. I have >gotten a lot of e-mail on this item, i think the only fair >thing to do is give everyone a chance at it. > >Thanks >Tom Maybe we should hold a betting pool for how much this one goes for? I'll say....$875. Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." --> Scott Draves From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 28 19:04:08 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Another thought on 10baseT vs 10Base2: was Re: Microvaxen bits In-Reply-To: <199810282358.PAA32150@office.ao.com> from "Gary Oliver" at Oct 28, 98 03:58:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2165 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981029/41b9ee93/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 28 19:21:01 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? Message-ID: Has anyone ever seen (or heard of) an IBM PCjr with no internal disk drive, but instead a face plate covering the slot where the drive would go? I saw such a thing today and was curious if there were ever any PCjr's released without internal disk drives. Obviously this one was. The inside is rather bare as well. There is not the usual cards inside. I also saw what looked to be a very small IBM computer. It had all the connectors on the back, for video, keyboard, printer. It also had two 3.5" bays side by side in the front. The front cover was missing so I couldn't get any model number off it (not even on the label on the bottom). The only thing I saw on the label was "Type 2100". I'm thinking it might be a PS/1 or something. It was really small, measuring about 12" wide by 3" high by 12" deep. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 28 19:23:36 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Maybe we should hold a betting pool for how much this one goes for? I'll > say....$875. That would be higher than an IMSAI went for a while back, but anything's possible. I'd guess $400. -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 28 19:32:22 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > So you're saying its easier to work with a soldering iron, solder, a pair > > of dykes, a knife and a 3-piece BNC connector behind a machine rack, as > > opposed to a one-piece RJ-45 that requires one tool to cut, strip and > > crimp? Wow. You ARE a glutton for punishment. > > Yes, I find it a lot easier. The problem with the RJ45 is getting the > wires in the right order, keeping the pairs twisted right up to the > connector when so doing, indentifying the different colours of wire > (whoever put brown and orange in the same cable deserves to be LARTed > :-)). Actuallty doing the crimp is trivial. Aside from the color issue, which is a true concern if you're color blind, crimping an RJ-45 onto a Cat5 cable is not difficult with a little practice. I can make cables that are indistinguishable from factory made in just a few moments these days. Getting the colours right takes just a little review if you haven't done it recently, but if you do it all the time its a no-brainer. I agree about the brown/orange problem. So I still maintain I'd rather crimp than have to drag a soldering iron up into a crawl space or something. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Oct 28 19:35:15 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981028155119.8007267a@ricochet.net> At 08:45 AM 10/20/98 -0700, you wrote: >> I think I know at least 3 or 4 Germans who would like >> to join and I guess there are a lot more. If I may butt in... Perhaps there is a way you can do this. First, pick a location that you think will be convenient for everyone, perhaps near the chunnel(?) or near an airport. Then, find a pub, restaurant, whatever with a decent sized meeting room and convince them to let you hold it there for free. (Often, they'll do this because they figure attendees will buy lots of beer/food/whatever.) Next, pick a date. Get together with your core 5 and find a mutually agreeable date. Plan for 1 day the first time. Let people know about it, arrange for some computers to be on display, maybe a speaker or two, dig up some vendors, and go for it. Costs should be minimal -- printing some flyers, maybe. Income will be minimal too (perhaps charge vendors a small fee) but can be used as seed money for the following year. At the very least, you'll have 5 people getting together for a day of BS'ing about old computers. At best, you'll have a decent first shot at it, with the momentum to really do a bang-up job of it the following year. I think starting out with higher goals worked here because of the high concentration of techies in the Silicon Valley. Over there, I think a more modest start makes more sense. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 28 19:36:30 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 28, 98 05:21:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 966 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981029/b43bf05e/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Wed Oct 28 19:37:38 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > I also saw what looked to be a very small IBM computer. It had all the > connectors on the back, for video, keyboard, printer. It also had two > 3.5" bays side by side in the front. The front cover was missing so I > couldn't get any model number off it (not even on the label on the > bottom). The only thing I saw on the label was "Type 2100". I'm thinking > it might be a PS/1 or something. It was really small, measuring about 12" > wide by 3" high by 12" deep. I have a couple of PS/2e (9533) boxen that have approximately those dimensions, but mine has a laptop-thin floppy in the right bay, and four PCMCIA slots in the left (there were models without the PCMCIA). These are very useful low-power machines. (I use one for a wireless gateway to my home LAN). They also had an optional flat-panel display. -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 28 19:48:43 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > Has anyone ever seen (or heard of) an IBM PCjr with no internal disk > > drive, but instead a face plate covering the slot where the drive would > > go? I saw such a thing today and was curious if there were ever any > > PCjr's released without internal disk drives. Obviously this one was. > > The TechRef implies that the disk drive is an option, but that doesn't > mean that machines were ever sold without it, of course. Well, every PCjr I've ever seen had the drive. I was a bit confused at this one when I first saw it and it took me a minute to realize it was the missing disk drive that made it peculiar. > > The inside is rather bare as well. There is not the usual cards inside. > > Well, I would hope the PSU card (far left, looking from the front) was > there. Otherwise powering up the machine could be interesting. It was there. The only other board internally was one that had a squared connector tha stuck out one of the openings in back. It had a chip on it. I didn't have enough time to inspect it any closer because the store was closing. Its only $10 so I may go back if its worth getting, but my guess is that its just a PCjr without the disk drive and some pieces missing. > The other cards are a 64K RAM expansion (optional, but useful as it gives > extra video modes as well), the floppy controller and an internal modem. > So a bare-bones system could look empty. The plastic chassis that holds > the drive (and fan, which is only fitted on floppy systems) was > presumably missing as well. So it looks like this was the poor man's PCjr (which being the poor man's PC would put the sorry fellow who got this in the lowest possible income bracket would be my guess). It must have been the really, really inexpensive entry-level IBM home computer. I may get it just for that. I did get some interesting ephemera that was around it, including some PCjr pamphlets and the first 3 issues of PCjr magazine (I'd never heard of it until now). Plus the IBM PCjr BASIC reference manual (not the one with the cartoon drawings throughout, this was the manual with the BASIC command reference). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From rexstout at uswest.net Wed Oct 28 20:02:40 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Armiton In-Reply-To: References: <01be0270$8c285a00$e9c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: >Just wander back to your local RS... Its that time of year again and (at >least out here) they were in stock (in mass quantity) when I was there >last week along with the dreaded 'Super Armitron'!. I remember having one... And being good with a screwdriver, I promptly destroyed the poor thing and it never did get back to normal. I think most of it got thrown in the trash after my parents screamed at me for at least a half hour... Hehe. Being a kid is more fun with a screwdriver... Just gotta be careful, if you don't poke your eye out you end up with an expensive hobby(unless your good at dumpster diving)... :-) -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From oajones at bright.net Wed Oct 28 19:59:19 1998 From: oajones at bright.net (oajones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific (fwd) References: Message-ID: <3637CBF6.7CDD@bright.net> > >DEAR AARON: > > > >I will be putting the computer on the e-bay auction > >some time soon. The wieght is under 100lbs. I have > >gotten a lot of e-mail on this item, i think the only fair > >thing to do is give everyone a chance at it. > > > >Thanks > >Tom This is what I call the height of hypocrisy. In other words: "I will be trolling for the best price offered." Everyone should boycott this transaction. Have a nice day! :) -- --Alan oajones@bright.net From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Oct 28 20:01:23 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sour Message-ID: <19981029020125.19626.qmail@hotmail.com> > >On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Pete Joules wrote: > >> > Seams to be an attitude of all management - bann whatever >> > you don't undestand >> >> I think the attitude of many companies in the UK is "if we wanted to give Indeed. Too bad people must always abuse a privelege > >Let me add a little perspective to this. > >Say you ran a company, and being a good collector and occasional dumpster >diver, you had a policy that anything broken could be taken home by >employees if the company decided they didn't want to fix it. So the >hacker employees are happy because they get some nice stuff they can fix >and use in their spare time. But what happens when employees start >intentionally breaking things, or worse, pulling small parts out of >equipment to make it look broke, so they can then take it home and replace >the missing fuse or chip? I think that is why you have the rather >seemingly unreasonable policies about discard equipment. > >> I think with the modern ideas about environmentally friendly disposal of Judging from the labels on dumpsters, this has already happened. "Do not play in or around dumpster" > >Until one loathesome scavenger cuts a finger off on some particularly >sharp piece of metal and sues the owner, the trash company, the maker of >the trash container for not making it so they could get inside in the >first place, etc. (at least in the U.S.) > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 28 20:02:21 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 28, 98 05:48:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 312 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981029/e9b85294/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Oct 28 20:05:36 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? Message-ID: <19981029020538.16600.qmail@hotmail.com> The disk drive was an option, like the hard drive on the XT. In my PCjr manual, the disk drive manual is a separate booklet. The owner was supposed to install it, I think. BTW, why is the PS/1 called that if it came after the PS/2? >drive, but instead a face plate covering the slot where the drive would >go? I saw such a thing today and was curious if there were ever any >PCjr's released without internal disk drives. Obviously this one was. > >The inside is rather bare as well. There is not the usual cards inside. > >I also saw what looked to be a very small IBM computer. It had all the >connectors on the back, for video, keyboard, printer. It also had two >3.5" bays side by side in the front. The front cover was missing so I >couldn't get any model number off it (not even on the label on the >bottom). The only thing I saw on the label was "Type 2100". I'm thinking >it might be a PS/1 or something. It was really small, measuring about 12" >wide by 3" high by 12" deep. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From erd at infinet.com Wed Oct 28 20:19:22 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Nixie stuff (Was: Re: A Proposal (was...)) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 28, 98 09:32:05 pm Message-ID: <199810290219.VAA03805@user2.infinet.com> > > > Don't they run on 170 volts or somesuch wild figure??? > > A nixie tube is basically a neon bulb. It turns out that if you drive a > neon bulb from DC, then the cathode appears to glow, and the anode > doesn't. A nixie tube has a number of cathodes in the shape of the > required symbols (often, but not always, 0-9), and a mesh anode. Wow. I didn't know that. I thought you had to supply the Nixie with AC. > Being a neon bulb, it needs a current-limited HV supply to run it. > Typically a 200V-ish supply with A suitable series resistor. I'll have to rig up some kind of ladder network, I guess. I have a board out of an ancient calculator with 9 or 10 Nixie tubes (and a neon bulb for the '-' sign). I've always wanted to fire it up, but never had the time to build some kind of high-voltage BCD driver. This sounds like a job for a PIC, a kind of serial to Nixie driver. I could always drive it with an ancient UART (the kind that didn't need a CPU) and a pile ot TTL, but I think the PIC could keep the part count low. -ethan From ddameron at earthlink.net Wed Oct 28 20:25:52 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Kurzweil KVS Message-ID: <199810290225.SAA11097@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Hi Doug and all, At 04:59 PM 10/28/98 -0600, you wrote: >On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > >> Unless you used "1000 word vocab" to qualify the claim, in which case I >> still think there may be an earlier contender. Speech recongition goes >> back a long way, perhaps as far back as the 50s. > >Yes, commercial and 1000 word vocab were the qualifiers; let me know if >you still challenge the claim, otherwise it gets immortalized in a web >page soon. > >And given that AI didn't really get started until around 1960, and that >storage for digitized speech would have been very expensive back then, I'd >be interested in any references you could provide for speech recognition >way back in the 1950's. > In a recent "Electronic Design" magazine, the column "40 years ago", there was an article about IBM and digitized speech. It is an interesting column, as well as Bob Pease's. -Dave From danjo at xnet.com Wed Oct 28 20:41:31 1998 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf Message-ID: What - you got one too???? Now I can not swear it is Sammie's handiwork but after get a copy of the Unsubscribe message from the listproc admin I am pretty sure I will be able to hunt down the source. It's more of a nuisance attack anyway... Tho I think DOS is more like it.... > From listproc@u.washington.edu Wed Oct 28 11:45:06 1998 > Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:22:33 PST > From: University of Washington ListProcessor > To: danjo@xnet.com > Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > > Dear user, > > your request > > UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > > has been successfully processed. > > You have been removed from list CLASSICCMP(classiccmp@u.washington.edu). > Thank you for being with us. BC From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Oct 28 20:43:32 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? Message-ID: <6185bc1a.3637d654@aol.com> hmmm, strange option, as i've seen every pcjr with a disk drive installed including the two i own. i guess it could still be useful with a floppy because you could always run those programs on cartridges. i have no idea why the ps/1 was announced after the ps2. perhaps was just an afterthought. i've had people actually think that the ps/1 was "better" than the ps/2 just because it was first. david In a message dated 10/28/98 9:07:44 PM US Eastern Standard Time, maxeskin@hotmail.com writes: > The disk drive was an option, like the hard drive on the XT. In my > PCjr manual, the disk drive manual is a separate booklet. The owner > was supposed to install it, I think. BTW, why is the PS/1 called that > if it came after the PS/2? From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Oct 28 20:47:34 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? Message-ID: IBM 21xx series were PS/1 and current aptiva models. the earliest 21xx series i know about is the 2121 386sx types that had the power supply in the monitor. 2121 models do have a similar form factor though. i'll check at work and post back if i find anything. might be worth getting as it certainly wasnt an announced consumer product. david In a message dated 10/28/98 8:24:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time, dastar@ncal.verio.com writes: > I also saw what looked to be a very small IBM computer. It had all the > connectors on the back, for video, keyboard, printer. It also had two > 3.5" bays side by side in the front. The front cover was missing so I > couldn't get any model number off it (not even on the label on the > bottom). The only thing I saw on the label was "Type 2100". I'm thinking > it might be a PS/1 or something. It was really small, measuring about 12" > wide by 3" high by 12" deep. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic. > com From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Oct 28 21:00:37 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Kurzweil KVS In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 28, 98 02:36:04 pm Message-ID: <199810290300.TAA29660@saul4.u.washington.edu> > Unless you used "1000 word vocab" to qualify the claim, in which case I > still think there may be an earlier contender. Speech recongition goes > back a long way, perhaps as far back as the 50s. I saw a reference to a voice-activated typewriter that was patented in 1916. (No, that is not a typo.) Unforunately the site isn't in my bookmark file or if it is, the reference isn't easily accessible. -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Oct 28 21:08:41 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sour In-Reply-To: from "Pete Joules" at Oct 28, 98 11:10:48 pm Message-ID: <199810290308.TAA21170@saul4.u.washington.edu> > I think the attitude of many companies in the UK is "if we wanted to give > it away we would do so, once we have decided to throw it away it stays > thrown away". The problem, of course, is that dumpster-drivers and the company may disagree about what should be given to employees, thrown away, sold, scrapped, kept, or whatever. I think the trick is to find a company that strikes a balance between its own interests and the interests of hackers. (No, I don't have any suggestions.) Providing a channel so hackers can say, "Gee, this is neat, I'd like it!" is a worthy thing. Having employees "break" stuff so they can get it is not a worthy thing. Someone (Sam?) mentioned this self-destruction ploy in another message, so it's not my idea. Obviously if this happens the company either needs better communication between those in power and the hacker employees, or new hacker employees. -- Derek From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Wed Oct 28 17:32:50 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: MCA net card - status? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199810290427.XAA12487@mail.cgocable.net> Hi Doug! How was your holiday went? How's was the MCA netcard delievery coming along with the AUI to TP transrevicer? I have to get the 10 dollars out to yours to make up for that adapter. Thanks very much! Jason D. PS: I had to take it back to DX33 for now and keep searching for suitable solution. Still nice machine! email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Oct 28 22:30:12 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf Message-ID: <199810290436.XAA03732@gate.usaor.net> Wasn't this posted this already? ---------- > From: Brett > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf > Date: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 9:41 PM > > > What - you got one too???? Now I can not swear it is Sammie's handiwork > but after get a copy of the Unsubscribe message from the listproc admin > I am pretty sure I will be able to hunt down the source. It's more of > a nuisance attack anyway... Tho I think DOS is more like it.... > From gram at cnct.com Thu Oct 29 00:12:00 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Kurzweil KVS References: <199810290300.TAA29660@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3638072F.43DF2713@cnct.com> D. Peschel wrote: > > > Unless you used "1000 word vocab" to qualify the claim, in which case I > > still think there may be an earlier contender. Speech recongition goes > > back a long way, perhaps as far back as the 50s. > > I saw a reference to a voice-activated typewriter that was patented in 1916. > (No, that is not a typo.) Unforunately the site isn't in my bookmark file > or if it is, the reference isn't easily accessible. There have been voice activated typewriters since at least the 1870s. Place a secretary between your voice and the typewriter. Unless you're really a silicon chauvinist... -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From kyrrin at jps.net Thu Oct 29 00:34:55 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: VAXStation cable pinouts Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981028223455.00945100@mail.jps.net> At one time, I had the URL of a web site where the fellow had listed a method and pinouts to make a VAXStation II/GPX video cable complete with mouse and KB connections as well as video. Does anyone recall where this is? I can't seem to find it. Thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From yowza at yowza.com Thu Oct 29 02:22:57 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Kurzweil KVS In-Reply-To: <199810290225.SAA11097@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, dave dameron wrote: > In a recent "Electronic Design" magazine, the column "40 years ago", there > was an article about IBM and digitized speech. It is an interesting column, > as well as Bob Pease's. Can you summarize the article? I can imagine a lot of ways to digitize speech without a lot of RAM, but I'm curious about what they were doing in the 50's with the data. I seem to remember things like "formant" decomposition and analysis to be reasearch topics in the 70's. Come to think of it, I don't even know when things like the FFT were invented, but I thought even that was not until the 60's or so. -- Doug From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Oct 27 22:19:47 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199810290824.DAA08357@smtp.interlog.com> On 28 Oct 98 at 21:47, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > IBM 21xx series were PS/1 and current aptiva models. the earliest 21xx series > i know about is the 2121 386sx types that had the power supply in the monitor. > 2121 models do have a similar form factor though. i'll check at work and post > back if i find anything. might be worth getting as it certainly wasnt an > announced consumer product. > > david > > In a message dated 10/28/98 8:24:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > dastar@ncal.verio.com writes: > > > I also saw what looked to be a very small IBM computer. It had all the > > connectors on the back, for video, keyboard, printer. It also had two > > 3.5" bays side by side in the front. The front cover was missing so I > > couldn't get any model number off it (not even on the label on the > > bottom). The only thing I saw on the label was "Type 2100". I'm thinking > > it might be a PS/1 or something. It was really small, measuring about 12" > > wide by 3" high by 12" deep. > > > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: > dastar@siconic. > > com > I have a 2011 which was a 286. I have the specs for both the 2011 and the 2021. I've never heard of an earlier one. Both I believe had a built-in modem. The 2100 were a different issue of PS1s. I also have a PS1 2133 which was the slimline case but with its own PSU and seperate monitor. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Oct 27 22:19:46 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199810290824.DAA08362@smtp.interlog.com> On 28 Oct 98 at 17:21, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Has anyone ever seen (or heard of) an IBM PCjr with no internal disk > drive, but instead a face plate covering the slot where the drive would > go? I saw such a thing today and was curious if there were ever any > PCjr's released without internal disk drives. Obviously this one was. > > The inside is rather bare as well. There is not the usual cards inside. > > I also saw what looked to be a very small IBM computer. It had all the > connectors on the back, for video, keyboard, printer. It also had two > 3.5" bays side by side in the front. The front cover was missing so I > couldn't get any model number off it (not even on the label on the > bottom). The only thing I saw on the label was "Type 2100". I'm thinking > it might be a PS/1 or something. It was really small, measuring about 12" > wide by 3" high by 12" deep. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com Sounds like the base unit of a PS1 2121. The power supply was in the upper monitor unit. Pretty well useless without it. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Thu Oct 29 03:07:18 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Fw: Osborne One Sale Message-ID: <003001be031b$8820bdc0$d73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> This ad was in an Australian newsgroup. Turns out that the guy is "west of Olympia, Washington" He didn't say what country, so I assume he is American. They sometimes don't know the rest of the world exists. Someone else might be closer than me and also interested in this. -----Original Message----- From: w536@westsound.com Newsgroups: aus.ads.forsale.computers.used Date: Wednesday, 28 October 1998 16:51 Subject: Osborne One Sale >I have 3 Osborne Ones, > >1 ... white / blue case with modem and case fan ... working >1 ... white / blue case ... not presently working >1 ... brown case.... not presently working ... > > >If interested please contact through email for more information ... > >I use to work on these years ago so I have some knowledge about the >hardware, software, memory, ROM etc. > >Bill ... w536@westsound.com > > > >-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- >http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own From foxvideo at wincom.net Thu Oct 29 05:51:21 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: "A Brief History of Computers" Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19981029065121.007a4c80@mail.wincom.net> >Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 06:37:24 -0500 >To: rax@warbaby.com;classiccmp@u.washington.edu >From: "Charles E. Fox" >Subject: "A Brief History of Computers" > > > Hi, Robert: > > Having downloaded and read your piece, I would say it is a very good effort. I like, and try to emulate, the light way of writing but would suggest going easy on material not directly relevant...can openers, for instance. > I think it is readable by the technologically challenged, for it would be hard to find anyone more technologically challenged than I am, and I enjoyed it. > > Cheers > > Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From danjo at xnet.com Thu Oct 29 07:17:13 1998 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sour In-Reply-To: <199810290308.TAA21170@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > I think the trick is to find a company that strikes a balance between > its own interests and the interests of hackers. (No, I don't have any > suggestions.) > Providing a channel so hackers can say, "Gee, this is neat, I'd like it!" > is a worthy thing. Having employees "break" stuff so they can get it is > not a worthy thing. When I worked for Western Electric in the mid-70's they had suffered from above to such an extent that ALL trash was crushed and compacted. So I stood spell bound in anger and watched as 11 PDP-8's where systematically disassembled and crushed. It was a very sad day.... BC From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 29 08:35:55 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific (fwd) Message-ID: <199810291316.OAA05760@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>>DEAR AARON: >>>I will be putting the computer on the e-bay auction >>>some time soon. The wieght is under 100lbs. I have >>>gotten a lot of e-mail on this item, i think the only fair >>>thing to do is give everyone a chance at it. >>>Thanks >>>Tom I got the same letter :( > This is what I call the height of hypocrisy. In other words: "I will be > trolling for the best price offered." Everyone should boycott this > transaction. Have a nice day! :) Jep, basicly you're right. Completely right. But help me, I WANT it. I don't know if I can hold myself from bidding. Without questioning I would offer some 200 USD which is good I think (good condition of the lot as a base). And I belive ePay could push me eventualy to some 400 or so USD (Takin the 'imagine what if' measurement). Sigh. Gruss H. P.S.: has anybody som OSI stuff for sale ? -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 29 08:35:55 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sour Message-ID: <199810291316.OAA05604@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> Seams to be an attitude of all management - bann whatever >>> you don't undestand >> I think the attitude of many companies in the UK is "if we wanted to give >> it away we would do so, once we have decided to throw it away it stays >> thrown away". > Say you ran a company, and being a good collector and occasional dumpster > diver, you had a policy that anything broken could be taken home by > employees if the company decided they didn't want to fix it. So the > hacker employees are happy because they get some nice stuff they can fix > and use in their spare time. But what happens when employees start > intentionally breaking things, or worse, pulling small parts out of > equipment to make it look broke, so they can then take it home and replace > the missing fuse or chip? I think that is why you have the rather > seemingly unreasonable policies about discard equipment. Thats the simple way of avoiding any possibility, as far away it might be. An empolyee like you described could even in Germany, where we have very strict laws agains random kickin of employees, be fired winthin some days. AND will be responsible for any possible financial loss - Thats a bit like your cracy pruduct cases. So taking of parts is ok at most companies (with permission) but using them for profit (no, a single sale at a flea market is also not considered profit) could harm you more than being charged with murder. >> I think with the modern ideas about environmentally friendly disposal of >> waste it would be appropriate for the local authorities to turn a blind >> eye to 'scavengers' like ourselves and thus reduce the amount of useful >> stuff which ends up in landfill ;-) Of courese - extending the usage of any thing is the best environmental protection strategy (maybe without suizide), especialy with wares that used a lot of energy and other recources to produce - often a lot more in construction then at any time later - like cars or computers :) > Until one loathesome scavenger cuts a finger off on some particularly > sharp piece of metal and sues the owner, the trash company, the maker of > the trash container for not making it so they could get inside in the > first place, etc. (at least in the U.S.) Yes, and only in the US. Ok, our European product laws are maybe sometimes a bit week, but the combination of better rights for the customer and a very junky law system isn't helpful either. And worse, if we would bothe get hurt (in the US) I have to be lucky to get 1/20th of your payment ... American Courts are somewhat picky about the victims ... Gruss Hans P.S.: A surplus store has some PC-234 printers on sale. These are Printers for the TI-74 Basic handheld. They seem to be new or at least in very good shape in the original box. The price is some 85 Mark, so any interest ? -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From danjo at xnet.com Thu Oct 29 07:26:05 1998 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Kurzweil KVS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, dave dameron wrote: > > In a recent "Electronic Design" magazine, the column "40 years ago", there > > was an article about IBM and digitized speech. It is an interesting column, > > as well as Bob Pease's. > > Can you summarize the article? I can imagine a lot of ways to digitize > speech without a lot of RAM, but I'm curious about what they were doing in > the 50's with the data. I seem to remember things like "formant" > decomposition and analysis to be reasearch topics in the 70's. Come to > think of it, I don't even know when things like the FFT were invented, but > I thought even that was not until the 60's or so. > -- Doug I remember IBM did a rather large push in the mid-60's of speech. They even sent out records (either the flippy kind or real) with both sides of 'Bicycle Built For Two' - one which was used in '2001 - A Space Oddessy' for Hal in shutdown mode. The first side was current technology until this latest technology from IBM and the second side was the improved version. Along with it was a whole ad blurb of how wonderful this would make the world along with very little technical data. BC From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 29 08:50:57 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?) Message-ID: <199810291331.OAA08639@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> I think I know at least 3 or 4 Germans who would like >>> to join and I guess there are a lot more. > If I may butt in... Perhaps there is a way you can do this. First, pick a > location that you think will be convenient for everyone, perhaps near the > chunnel(?) or near an airport. [...] > At the very least, you'll have 5 people getting together for a day of > BS'ing about old computers. At best, you'll have a decent first shot at > it, with the momentum to really do a bang-up job of it the following year. That describes exact the way I thought of it. I would start this way, but I'm just not in the UK ...and thats what the thing was about - I already had some talks to Wirtschaften (some Pubs) over here about this, and a meeting somewhere in spring might be reasonable. But it would be a Bavarian (German) mini VCF, and beside the travel distance for our UK list fellows, the Meeting language will be German, at least for most people, since the goal will still be to attract more visitors. Of course everybody is free to use what ever language is possible to talk, but if there is a programm of speaches to be made there will be problems. On the other side, we might attract new followers for the list. So, when only looking at the list I belive a UK (informal) meeting might have more members visiting than one in Bavaria. But feel free to prove me wrong. If there is a response, I will voluntere to organize it. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From gene at ehrich.com Thu Oct 29 07:38:38 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: <19981029020538.16600.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199810291335.FAA28002@mxu2.u.washington.edu> >was supposed to install it, I think. BTW, why is the PS/1 called that >if it came after the PS/2? Because it was less than (and without parity) the PS2 gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 29 07:36:23 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Nixie stuff (Was: Re: A Proposal (was...)) Message-ID: <199810291336.AA07939@world.std.com> < > > Don't they run on 170 volts or somesuch wild figure??? < > < > A nixie tube is basically a neon bulb. It turns out that if you drive < > neon bulb from DC, then the cathode appears to glow, and the anode < > doesn't. A nixie tube has a number of cathodes in the shape of the < > required symbols (often, but not always, 0-9), and a mesh anode. < < Wow. I didn't know that. I thought you had to supply the Nixie with AC 160-250V DC, thought he dc does nto have to be wel filtered or regulate < I'll have to rig up some kind of ladder network, I guess. I have a boar A transformer with a 120v secondary and a voltage doubler will do. The current is very low, nominal series resistor is something like 47k. < out of an ancient calculator with 9 or 10 Nixie tubes (and a neon bulb < for the '-' sign). I've always wanted to fire it up, but never had the < time to build some kind of high-voltage BCD driver. This sounds like a That's where the work is. Back when those were used inexpensive HV transistors with a 100v breakdown were hard to find and ICs good for more tha 30V were scarce. So there were some creative tricks used depending on the specific tube used. < for a PIC, a kind of serial to Nixie driver. I could always drive it wi < an ancient UART (the kind that didn't need a CPU) and a pile ot TTL, bu < I think the PIC could keep the part count low. Uart and a small pile of ttl really. The bulk of the hardware will be the drivers unless you can use the 74141. Allison From gene at ehrich.com Thu Oct 29 07:41:10 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: <6185bc1a.3637d654@aol.com> Message-ID: <199810291338.FAA28131@mxu2.u.washington.edu> The PCjr could only be booted from floppy or in its original from tape. At 09:43 PM 10/28/98 -0500, you wrote: >hmmm, strange option, as i've seen every pcjr with a disk drive installed gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Thu Oct 29 07:42:59 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sour Message-ID: >>> I think the attitude of many companies in the UK is "if we wanted to give >>> it away we would do so, once we have decided to throw it away it stays >>> thrown away". >> >> Let me add a little perspective to this. From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Thu Oct 29 07:48:57 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: DOS disks? Message-ID: >> oops, that was supposed to go to Sam only. >> ELM needs a "reply to sender" key. *sigh*. In exchange the menu option is "reply to sender" but that replies to the list, despite the name of the original sender appearing in the "from" column. One day MS will write some software that works... (OK, so that's completely off-topic... but it won't be so much ten years from now... look at it as being ahead of its time... :) cheers Jules > > > From yowza at yowza.com Thu Oct 29 08:22:31 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Kurzweil KVS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Brett wrote: > > > In a recent "Electronic Design" magazine, the column "40 years ago", there > > > was an article about IBM and digitized speech. It is an interesting column, > > > as well as Bob Pease's. [...] > I remember IBM did a rather large push in the mid-60's of speech. They > even sent out records (either the flippy kind or real) with both sides of > 'Bicycle Built For Two' - one which was used in '2001 - A Space Oddessy' > for Hal in shutdown mode. The first side was current technology until > this latest technology from IBM and the second side was the improved > version. Along with it was a whole ad blurb of how wonderful this would > make the world along with very little technical data. Are we talking about two different things? It sounds like you're talking about computer generated speech, which is a much different problem than automatic speech recognition (for which digitizing the speech is the first step). Kurzweil also had a product that produced speech from text (which it recognized from a page scan) called Personal Reader. I think the actual speech generation was a licensed version of DEC-Talk. -- Doug From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Oct 29 08:41:00 1998 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Personal Replies to Sender Was: RE: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199810291441.JAA05459@quartz.netsync.net> Briefly, here could be a solution to us inadvertently posting what should be private replies to our whole list: Can listproc on the U. of Wash. server be set so that the "Reply to:" field defaults to original poster and not to ClassicCmp? For example, Majordomo software running on a server handling a different list I am a member of is set this way. Therefore a reply will go to the previous sender in a msg thread. If the message is to go to the whole list then we simply type the "r-390@qth.net" address into either the "To:" or "CC:" field. Works very well it seems. FYI: 'R-390' is the military nomenclature of a high performance military surplus shortwave receiver that is truly a "classic" as far as its owners are concerned. I would even wager that Wm. Donzelli may have one too. As the reasoning that the message should always go to the list, we should just remember to specify the ClassicCmp addr. in the "To:" or "CC:" field. If we do not see a msg we intended for the list come up in our own email Inbox later then we know that we accidentally forgot and then have the option of reconsidering sending it to the whole list. This will help keep personal stuff such as discussing a deal to buy/sell something from the rest of the world --or those flames that get thrown around which nobody here appreciates. I'm still waiting for M$ s/w that works well. Whatever happened to Bill Whitson anyway? Regards, Chris At 13:48 10/29/98 +0000, Julian Richardson wrote: >>> oops, that was supposed to go to Sam only. >>> ELM needs a "reply to sender" key. > >*sigh*. In exchange the menu option is "reply to sender" but that >replies to the list, despite the name of the original sender appearing >in the "from" column. One day MS will write some software that works... >(OK, so that's completely off-topic... but it won't be so much ten years >from now... look at it as being ahead of its time... :) > >cheers > >Jules >> >> >> > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 29 10:17:29 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit! Message-ID: <199810291457.PAA00207@marina.fth.sbs.de> > < Address bus should be as wide as you think you might need plus a bit mor > < As Allison said (again! Why oh why did I delete her post?) you want you > < processor to be able to think about huge memories even if you can't buil > < them and have to swap to disk. > Actually the addres bus can be smaller than register size. For example > we could build an 80 bit machine with 60bit address busses. The 60 bits > is more than enough to address most likely memory needs for a long while > yet if you need to do address math or other math 80bit long registers may > make it much easier. The datapath bus can be any size as well but larger > is generally better. Just remember the enhancement of the /370 address space from 24 Bit to 31 Bit (with a short intermediate phase of the 25 Bit machines - 16M user and 16M system RAM). And the funny thing is that still a mayor part of all /370 Software is only 24 Bit aware. > The assumption of symetry is likely the most false. Right. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Oct 29 09:03:16 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: VAXStation cable pinouts In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981028223455.00945100@mail.jps.net> from "Bruce Lane" at Oct 28, 98 10:34:55 pm Message-ID: <199810291503.HAA01873@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Bruce: This is the "ASUBI" site. I have the URL at home. I'll send it to you tonight. ASUBI stands for "all sorts of useful bits of information", the author's term! You might be able to find it via a search engine using ASUBI and "cable" or something like that. 73, Kevin > > At one time, I had the URL of a web site where the fellow had listed a > method and pinouts to make a VAXStation II/GPX video cable complete with > mouse and KB connections as well as video. > > Does anyone recall where this is? I can't seem to find it. > > Thanks. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: > http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) > SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own > human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From bill at chipware.com Thu Oct 29 09:29:18 1998 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199810291316.OAA05760@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <000d01be0350$e4b1d800$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Hans Franke wrote: > Jep, basicly you're right. Completely right. But help me, > I WANT it. I don't know if I can hold myself from bidding. <----snip----> > P.S.: has anybody som OSI stuff for sale ? <----snip----> And for years I thought, based on responses from a.f.c, that I was the only person in the world who cared for OSI equipment! Since there are some interested people, let me repeat a question that I have asked on the net before: Does anyone have a complete working copy of OS-65u, the multi-user OS for the C3 and C4 series? If you do, please contact me! Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 29 10:55:59 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific (fwd) Message-ID: <199810291536.QAA13871@marina.fth.sbs.de> > > P.S.: has anybody som OSI stuff for sale ? > And for years I thought, based on responses from a.f.c, > that I was the only person in the world who cared for > OSI equipment! > Since there are some interested people, let me repeat > a question that I have asked on the net before: > Does anyone have a complete working copy of OS-65u, > the multi-user OS for the C3 and C4 series? If you do, > please contact me! No. Anything I have is a C1P Board (build nicly in a Childrens school desk :) and a fitting OSI video board and some casette soft. I wanted to have one when OSI was a big thing, but I hadn't the money - and now I can't find any. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From erd at infinet.com Thu Oct 29 09:40:15 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific (fwd) In-Reply-To: <000d01be0350$e4b1d800$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Oct 29, 98 10:29:18 am Message-ID: <199810291540.KAA09993@user2.infinet.com> > > Hans Franke wrote: > > Jep, basicly you're right. Completely right. But help me, > > I WANT it. I don't know if I can hold myself from bidding. > <----snip----> > > P.S.: has anybody some OSI stuff for sale ? > <----snip----> > > And for years I thought, based on responses from a.f.c, > that I was the only person in the world who cared for > OSI equipment! I had expressed interest in the C3 (and had received the same form letter you all did), but I will not be participating in any eBay auction. They are for me a waste of time and effort. I would like to have a C3, but not as much as many of you out there. My reasons are purely sentimental; a family friend bought one for his home bsuiness in the late 1970's, and I went over to his house on numerous occasions to play with it. I thought the triple CPU design was slicker than owl snot. I'd just love to play on one again. I guess I'd rather borrow one than buy it. More to the point on OSI hardware, I have a C4P motherboard and service manual somewhere in storage. At one time, when I was almost exclusively into 6502's, I had entertained the notion of building enough stuff to make this board do *something* useful. I no longer have the time to even consider such a project. I am writing to poll for interest among OSI collectors for such a beast. It's not a computer, only the mainboard. If you don't have a C4P already, this is of virtually no use. I have never even powered it on. If there are any takers, I will make an effort to dig it out. Trades are welcome as well as cash offers. I will *not* be auctioning this off on eBay or any other web-auction service. -ethan From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 29 09:55:22 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Personal Replies to Sender Was: RE: DOS disks? Message-ID: <199810291555.AA20738@world.std.com> < "CC:" field. Works very well it seems. FYI: 'R-390' is the military < nomenclature of a high performance military surplus shortwave receiver t < is truly a "classic" as far as its owners are concerned. I would even wa That is one item that comes under the I'd give up a computer to keep. Those were real nice recievers. It could even displace my Allied AX190 (it's only 24years old). Allison From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 29 11:18:06 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific (fwd) Message-ID: <199810291558.QAA07430@marina.fth.sbs.de> > More to the point on OSI hardware, I have a C4P motherboard > and service manual somewhere in storage. At one time, when I was > almost exclusively into 6502's, I had entertained the notion of > building enough stuff to make this board do *something* useful. > I no longer have the time to even consider such a project. I am > writing to poll for interest among OSI collectors for such a beast. > It's not a computer, only the mainboard. If you don't have a C4P > already, this is of virtually no use. I have never even powered > it on. > If there are any takers, I will make an effort to dig it out. HERE! No, I have no C4P, but I still would like to get this board. Maybe I can dig up other parts over the next years. Wasn't the C4P Board already a complete computer ? At least thats what I remember. So adding a Terminal and a PSU might be a first step to check condition. Please tell me what you ask for it. Or tell me What kind of trade you might be interested. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 29 11:08:59 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: <199810291338.FAA28131@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Gene Ehrich wrote: > > The PCjr could only be booted from floppy or in its original from tape. The PCjr had BASIC in ROM and didn't require a floppy to boot. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 29 11:17:46 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Personal Replies to Sender Was: RE: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: <199810291441.JAA05459@quartz.netsync.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Christian Fandt wrote: > Briefly, here could be a solution to us inadvertently posting what should > be private replies to our whole list: > > Can listproc on the U. of Wash. server be set so that the "Reply to:" field > defaults to original poster and not to ClassicCmp? Any question that asks if we can change the way the list works is moot because, as was pointed out, its no longer being maintained. It just exists. If a private message is inadvertently posted to the list in the future, the best course of action is just to ignore it, assuming the sender flubbed, and the sender need not apologize because it just adds more noise. If the same sender seems to make a habit of this, then we can assume the worst and flame that person accordingly. > Whatever happened to Bill Whitson anyway? He was crushed by a PDP-11 rack as he tried to load it into his van. (Real answer: I don't know). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Oct 29 11:41:45 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:48 2005 Subject: Personal Replies to Sender Was: RE: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13399683847.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [List is no longer being maintaied] Ehehehehe... Anarchy! [crushed by a PDP-11 rack...] Shall I dredge up the Jeff story again? All 10 toes... He was swearing for 20 minutes... ------- From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 29 13:17:25 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Personal Replies to Sender Was: RE: DOS disks? Message-ID: <199810291757.SAA20217@marina.fth.sbs.de> > [List is no longer being maintaied] > Ehehehehe... Anarchy! Nothing to laugh about. Anarchy works great. Take this list great people, great stuff - or take the Internet itself - beside some stupid gouvenment issues and some want-to-be-bosses its pure Anarchy - and great. Anarchie never ment to be without rules just without f****** rulers. Gruss Hans TBOTA: Does anybody remember a 'INTEL' video game ? I have aquired today a unit named 'INTEL UNIVERSAL TELE PLAY'. Acording to the chip dates the base unit (there is only the video logic and the connectors inside) must be manufactured around 1976. The two modules (here is the processor) I got, SUPERSTAR (a collection of Pong alikes) and TANK are from 1977 and 1978. The unit is very nicely, a plastic case with metall plates, 4 switches (on/of and 3 game dependant), a Start (Reset) Button and even a numeric keypad to select games. Funny numbering on the keypad: 159 260 37* 48= maybe taken from an old calculator. The base unit has a German/English mixture of labels, while the modules (cassetes) are only in english. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU Thu Oct 29 12:09:50 1998 From: Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Personal Replies to Sender Was: RE: DOS disks? Message-ID: <10459356@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> --- "Hans Franke" wrote: Does anybody remember a 'INTEL' video game ? I have aquired today a unit named 'INTEL UNIVERSAL TELE PLAY'. --- end of quote --- Is this the same as the "Intellivision?" From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Oct 29 12:19:00 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Personal Replies to Sender Was: RE: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: <10459356@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> from "Marion Bates" at Oct 29, 98 01:09:50 pm Message-ID: <199810291819.LAA09868@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 620 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981029/1090a732/attachment.ksh From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 29 13:40:17 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Personal Replies to Sender Was: RE: DOS disks? Message-ID: <199810291820.TAA29112@marina.fth.sbs.de> > --- "Hans Franke" wrote: > Does anybody remember a 'INTEL' video game ? I have > aquired today a unit named 'INTEL UNIVERSAL TELE PLAY'. > --- end of quote --- > Is this the same as the "Intellivision?" No (of course I know the Intelivision :). I just try to get any information - and 22 years are a long time ago. I also have some considerations about 'INTEL' - did they do it, or just a kind of lable hobo ? The mark used consists of all capital letters, while the upper bar of the T covers the whole word. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From A_Finney at public.com Thu Oct 29 12:40:31 1998 From: A_Finney at public.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. References: Message-ID: <3638B69F.9FA33AD@public.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > good at it) and you don't have to worry about running a black coax cable > > Who said anything about a black cable? I use yellow cable for ethernet as > God intended :-). You guys are both lucky. I inherited 600' of _bright orange_ (day-glo) 10Base2 cable that my wife will barely allow in the *garage*... From franke at sbs.de Thu Oct 29 14:14:10 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <199810291854.TAA23891@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> good at it) and you don't have to worry about running a black coax cable >> Who said anything about a black cable? I use yellow cable for ethernet as >> God intended :-). > You guys are both lucky. I inherited 600' of _bright orange_ (day-glo) > 10Base2 cable that my wife will barely allow in the *garage*... 200m ? gee what a nice source for delay :) Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Oct 29 10:14:51 1998 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: FS: Assembly Language on 360/370 book Message-ID: <802566AC.005EBF33.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Oct 29 10:28:33 1998 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: FS: Assembly Language on 360/370 book Message-ID: <802566AC.005ED9DF.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> To Owad wrote: > Assembly Language Fundamentals > 360/370, OS/VS, DOS/VS > by Rina & Joshua Yarmish > 768 pages, hardback > > $5 shipped. I'm interested. How much more to ship to UK? If the total is less than $10 I'll airmail you a bill. (Checks wallet) Damn. No $10 bills. Oh well, we'll sort something out. Haven't got much else to use my US currency on, after all... Philip. PS Sorry about the null post. I double-clicked the Reply button and this awful mail software took that as one click on Reply and one on Send. :-( PPS shall we keep the noise down and conclude our bargain in private e-mails? From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Oct 29 14:59:39 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Kurzweil KVS Message-ID: <19981029205939.22543.qmail@hotmail.com> Voice _activated_ or voice _operated_? I could easily imagine a type writer turning on when you talk to it, but not a typewriter that can understand speech. Though, with a housefull of tubes, it could probably be done... > >I saw a reference to a voice-activated typewriter that was patented in 1916. >(No, that is not a typo.) Unforunately the site isn't in my bookmark file >or if it is, the reference isn't easily accessible. > >-- Derek > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 29 15:26:43 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <3638B69F.9FA33AD@public.com> from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Oct 29, 98 10:40:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 342 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981029/cc256274/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 29 15:05:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Nixie stuff (Was: Re: A Proposal (was...)) In-Reply-To: <199810290219.VAA03805@user2.infinet.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 28, 98 09:19:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 877 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981029/50a389c5/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 29 16:27:00 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Kurzweil KVS In-Reply-To: <19981029205939.22543.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Voice _activated_ or voice _operated_? I could easily imagine a type > writer turning on when you talk to it, but not a typewriter that can > understand speech. Though, with a housefull of tubes, it could > probably be done... How about a houseful of tubes coupled with a Z-80 with 128 bit address space? If anybody here can afford to fully populate that address space, I'd like to discuss employment, ... Some of the very early voice recognition typewriters operated with their own phoneme based alphabets, rather than producing English text. Even the task of parsing the input stream to separate the words from each other has remained an elusive goal. That is a loarge part of why the current "dictation" systems remain unsuitable for transcription, closed captioning, aids for the deaf, etc. Even now, the best systems available require intense interaction between the speaker and the program. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Oct 29 18:15:44 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: References: <199810291338.FAA28131@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981029181544.47dfe36e@intellistar.net> At 09:08 AM 10/29/98 -0800, Sam said: >The PCjr had BASIC in ROM and didn't require a floppy to boot. Was the BASIC in a plug in cartridge and optional? Joe From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Oct 29 16:46:47 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199810291536.QAA13871@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: Where did all those OSI's go? They do seem scarce. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > > > P.S.: has anybody som OSI stuff for sale ? > > > And for years I thought, based on responses from a.f.c, > > that I was the only person in the world who cared for > > OSI equipment! > > > Since there are some interested people, let me repeat > > a question that I have asked on the net before: > > > Does anyone have a complete working copy of OS-65u, > > the multi-user OS for the C3 and C4 series? If you do, > > please contact me! > > No. Anything I have is a C1P Board (build nicly > in a Childrens school desk :) and a fitting > OSI video board and some casette soft. I wanted > to have one when OSI was a big thing, but I hadn't > the money - and now I can't find any. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK > From yowza at yowza.com Thu Oct 29 16:54:01 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Kurzweil KVS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Even the task of parsing the input stream to separate the words from each > other has remained an elusive goal. That is a loarge part of why the > current "dictation" systems remain unsuitable for transcription, closed > captioning, aids for the deaf, etc. Even now, the best systems available > require intense interaction between the speaker and the program. Yup, it's a *very* difficult problem. Basically, there's not a straight-forward mapping between sound waves and what we hear. Even once you do all of the relatively simple signal processing and word recognition, you're left with the basically impossible task of context analysis (which requires almost all of our brain to get right, and we still blow it about 1% of the time). -- Doug From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Oct 29 16:53:34 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Microvaxen bits etc." (Oct 29, 21:26) References: Message-ID: <9810292253.ZM5990@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 29, 21:26, Tony Duell wrote: > Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. > > You guys are both lucky. I inherited 600' of _bright orange_ (day-glo) > > 10Base2 cable that my wife will barely allow in the *garage*... > > > > Oh, my parents (who own the house that's full of my little collection) > prefer bright cables as they're less likely to trip over any temporary > cabling I happen to have plugged together... The first paragraph sounds familiar. Liz complained about the black cable snaking along the landing -- even though she finally got email and remote printer access out of it -- because it was "ugly black" RG58, as she put it. She wasn't at all impressed with a bright blue AUI drop cable paired with bright yellow thick ethernet. I just thought she'd be pleased with something prettier... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From yowza at yowza.com Thu Oct 29 17:22:01 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <9810292253.ZM5990@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > > > You guys are both lucky. I inherited 600' of _bright orange_ (day-glo) > > > 10Base2 cable that my wife will barely allow in the *garage*... > > > > Oh, my parents (who own the house that's full of my little collection) > > prefer bright cables as they're less likely to trip over any temporary > > cabling I happen to have plugged together... > > The first paragraph sounds familiar. Liz complained about the black cable > snaking along the landing -- even though she finally got email and remote > printer access out of it -- because it was "ugly black" RG58, as she put > it. She wasn't at all impressed with a bright blue AUI drop cable paired > with bright yellow thick ethernet. I just thought she'd be pleased with > something prettier... For your next aniversary, buy your wife a wireless LAN. I don't miss the wires a bit. ObCC: does anybody have a spare monitor for a Xerox 6085? -- Doug From dburrows at netpath.net Thu Oct 29 17:23:58 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <022f01be0393$50605940$a60b0b0b@p166> > >The first paragraph sounds familiar. Liz complained about the black cable >snaking along the landing -- even though she finally got email and remote >printer access out of it -- because it was "ugly black" RG58, as she put >it. She wasn't at all impressed with a bright blue AUI drop cable paired >with bright yellow thick ethernet. I just thought she'd be pleased with >something prettier... I know the problem all to well. They just have no sense of humor on such things. I moved all of my equipment to mobile homes I use for office and storage. 4 now soon to be 7 all sandwiched together. Now I get complaints that I am never down at the house, but when I bring things down there to work on they are in the way. Now that the kids are off to college I plan to take over one of the bedrooms and put a system in there. I even have a 4 inch conduit running the 350 feet from the office to the house. It is buried in the same trench as the power, phone, water, and sewer feed to the office. It has been there for 4 years and I still have not run the coax down to the house. Dan From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Thu Oct 29 17:38:58 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Personal Replies to Sender Was: RE: DOS disks? In-Reply-To: <199810291441.JAA05459@quartz.netsync.net> from "Christian Fandt" at Oct 29, 98 09:41:00 am Message-ID: <199810292338.PAA27632@saul7.u.washington.edu> > Briefly, here could be a solution to us inadvertently posting what should > be private replies to our whole list: > > Can listproc on the U. of Wash. server be set so that the "Reply to:" field > defaults to original poster and not to ClassicCmp? It may (though THIS one almost certainly won't because of non-maintenance) but that would be less convenient than the current situation, because most of the replies here are actually intended for the whole list. At least, in my opinion. -- Derek From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Oct 29 17:46:34 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: "Daniel T. Burrows" "Re: Microvaxen bits etc." (Oct 29, 18:23) References: <022f01be0393$50605940$a60b0b0b@p166> Message-ID: <9810292346.ZM6083@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 29, 18:23, Daniel T. Burrows wrote: > Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. > Now I get complaints > that I am never down at the house, but when I bring things down there to > work on they are in the way. Liz got quite shirty about the 20" monitor and the printer in the dining room. She seemed to think that ten printers was excessive, even when I pointed out that that was only one for every 3.5 systems. > take over one of the bedrooms and put a system in there. I even have a 4 > inch conduit running the 350 feet from the office to the house. It is > buried in the same trench as the power, phone, water, and sewer feed to the > office. It has been there for 4 years and I still have not run the coax > down to the house. That's OK, it took me two years to run the two serial lines from my room to the garage, and four more to do the coax. Now I have to run Cat5 as well... sometime. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From roblwill at usaor.net Thu Oct 29 17:50:31 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? Message-ID: <199810292352.SAA05881@gate.usaor.net> There may have been an advanced BASIC or something on a cartridge, but I think the ROM BASIC was in the M/B's ROM. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Joe > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: PCjr with no disk drive? > Date: Thursday, October 29, 1998 1:15 PM > > At 09:08 AM 10/29/98 -0800, Sam said: > > >The PCjr had BASIC in ROM and didn't require a floppy to boot. > > Was the BASIC in a plug in cartridge and optional? > > Joe > > From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Oct 29 18:00:06 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Kurzweil KVS Message-ID: <19981030000006.13935.qmail@hotmail.com> I would say it's probably more than 1%...but, is anyone here familiar with sound waves, and what human speech looks like waveform wise? > >On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > >> Even the task of parsing the input stream to separate the words from each >> other has remained an elusive goal. That is a loarge part of why the >> current "dictation" systems remain unsuitable for transcription, closed >> captioning, aids for the deaf, etc. Even now, the best systems available >> require intense interaction between the speaker and the program. > >Yup, it's a *very* difficult problem. Basically, there's not a >straight-forward mapping between sound waves and what we hear. Even once >you do all of the relatively simple signal processing and word >recognition, you're left with the basically impossible task of context >analysis (which requires almost all of our brain to get right, and we >still blow it about 1% of the time). > >-- Doug > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Thu Oct 29 19:06:09 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Kurzweil KVS In-Reply-To: <19981030000006.13935.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > I would say it's probably more than 1%...but, is anyone here > familiar with sound waves, and what human speech looks like waveform > wise? Having trouble with the search engines again? OK, I'll help: http://www.drspeech.com/SpeechTrain3.html ObCC: the AI in Kerzweil AI stands for Applied Intelligence. -- Doug From mew_jac at swbell.net Thu Oct 29 19:17:09 1998 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Help bootting this PDP-11/44 References: <19981030000006.13935.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <36391395.2FC9@swbell.net> Folks: Now that I have a gargage full of PDP-11/44 stuff: CPU rack 2 RK07 racks RS11 rack I need to figure out how to boot it. One RK07 is hooked up and the cable is terminated. There is a plater in the RK and the ready lite comes on. The cpu comes up, trys to boot then halts to the >>> prompt. How can I check the RK07? RSTS is on the platter, how do load it? Can any of the PDP experts help? Thanks and Regards, Mitch Wright From jruschme at exit109.com Thu Oct 29 19:26:54 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: <199810292352.SAA05881@gate.usaor.net> from Jason Willgruber at "Oct 29, 98 06:50:31 pm" Message-ID: <199810300126.UAA02312@crobin.home.org> > There may have been an advanced BASIC or something on a cartridge, but I > think the ROM BASIC was in the M/B's ROM. There was a pretty simple version of BASIC on the motherboard. The Advanced (Extended?) BASIC cartridge brought it to the level of the cassette BASIC on the old PC and XT. You need the cartridge to be able to use PC-DOS BASIC or BASICA. <<>> From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Oct 29 19:47:27 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: TRS-80 emulators Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981028184729.299f9cec@ricochet.net> >So, to come back on topic, the best for a TRS-80 >emulator is still DOS. Install it, or even boot Dunno if this link is still up, or if it's old news, but try http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/emulators.htm and see what you get. Interestingly enough, I used to have the URL for a Model III emulator that ran on the Atari ST. You could then get the ST emulator for DOS.... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Oct 29 19:47:32 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981028190544.299f0620@ricochet.net> At 12:34 PM 10/25/98 -0800, you wrote: >When I was a kid I tho't that the keypad was incredibly lame because it >didn't have a comma key. The only thing I would ever use it for would have >been typing in numbers in DATA statements so it seems like a dumb idea. Well, as someone who learned 10-key touch before I learned to type, the idea of a comma on the keypad does not seem so obvious. More important was the plus, minus, and period keys, for true data entry. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From ddameron at earthlink.net Thu Oct 29 19:48:46 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Kurzweil KVS Message-ID: <199810300148.RAA26306@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Hi Doug and all, At 02:22 AM 10/29/98 -0600, you wrote: >On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, dave dameron wrote: > >> In a recent "Electronic Design" magazine, the column "40 years ago", there >> was an article about IBM and digitized speech. It is an interesting column, >> as well as Bob Pease's. > >Can you summarize the article? I can imagine a lot of ways to digitize >speech without a lot of RAM, but I'm curious about what they were doing in >the 50's with the data. I seem to remember things like "formant" >decomposition and analysis to be reasearch topics in the 70's. Come to >think of it, I don't even know when things like the FFT were invented, but >I thought even that was not until the 60's or so. > I don't have it anymore, it had a lot to do with sampling and compression, as they had only 32k memory. It appeared in the last 4 months, so the original article was in 1958. Maybe someone else can find it easily? -Dave From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Thu Oct 29 19:50:19 1998 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <01be03a7$a6a670a0$f17d38cb@help-desk> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, 29 October 1998 8:54 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >[Using the transceiver section of an ethernet card] > >> I think it needs +-12v and +- 5v, but that's not a big problem. (Diskless >> workstation PSU) > >Well, the card might, but the transceiver section will almost certainly >only need one supply rail. It runs off an _isolated_ (to 1.5kV I think) >PSU on the card (there'll be a DC-DC converter on the card for this). >I've never seen such a converter than needs more than one supply voltage >input. Yep. Dead right. 12-15v dc to feed a dc-dc xvtr that produces 9v to run the NE8392C xcvr chip. >> > Did I mention that you'll need the data sheets on the transceiver chip? >> >> You did. Know a source? Online one preferably? > >Sure. Try the semiconductor manufacturers. AMD, National Semiconductor, >Philips, possibly. They should have the data sheets in pdf format to >download. I remember downloading the National Semiconductor >8390+8391+8392 data sheets about a year ago. Exactly as you recalled. I have the PDF files with data for the lot. Amongst other things, there is a page with a "Typical Application" which is a cct diagram of a what amounts to an AUI-Thin cable transceiver. Complete with pinouts of a typical pulse xfmr. Exactly what I needed. So I'm gonna build me a couple or three from bits of network cards. Should be able to do it on a piece of veroboard in about an hour or so. Cabling can be avoided by connecting the pins of a male 15pin d directly to the veroboard, then the whole thing can plug in to the ethernet AUI port on the back of the VAX. This has basically solved my problem, as I have several elcheapo ethernet cards laying about that can supply all the parts except the 15 pin male d. Thanks for your help. Cheers Geoff Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Oct 29 20:02:11 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Help bootting this PDP-11/44 In-Reply-To: <36391395.2FC9@swbell.net> from "Mitch Wright" at Oct 29, 98 07:17:09 pm Message-ID: <199810300202.SAA06461@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 744 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981029/91578a94/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 29 19:43:43 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981029181544.47dfe36e@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Oct 29, 98 06:15:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 382 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981030/d1382e01/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 29 19:55:41 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <9810292346.ZM6083@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 29, 98 11:46:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 933 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981030/3bf9e707/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 29 20:18:53 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <01be03a7$a6a670a0$f17d38cb@help-desk> (netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au) References: <01be03a7$a6a670a0$f17d38cb@help-desk> Message-ID: <19981030021853.26307.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Yep. Dead right. 12-15v dc to feed a dc-dc xvtr that produces 9v to run > the NE8392C xcvr chip. A lot of ethernet cards use a 5V to -9V isolated DC/DC converter for this. There were two types of these, the epoxy-potted black brick kind (which looks similar to the transformer modules, but bigger), and the daughterboard type. One of the most common converters in the latter category was a model made by TDK. I don't recall the part number, but I have hundreds of these which I could sell if anyone has a use for them. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 29 20:12:15 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Help bootting this PDP-11/44 In-Reply-To: <36391395.2FC9@swbell.net> from "Mitch Wright" at Oct 29, 98 07:17:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 973 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981030/ba9b0095/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 29 20:16:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <01be03a7$a6a670a0$f17d38cb@help-desk> from "Computer Room Internet Cafe" at Oct 30, 98 12:20:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1665 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981030/9b33bc59/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Oct 29 21:09:06 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? Message-ID: the pcjr is like any other IBM family one machine in that it will boot to basic unless it has a disk device or in the case of the pcjr, a cartridge inthe slot. In a message dated 10/29/98 9:08:03 PM US Eastern Standard Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > At 09:08 AM 10/29/98 -0800, Sam said: > > > > >The PCjr had BASIC in ROM and didn't require a floppy to boot. > > > > Was the BASIC in a plug in cartridge and optional? > > There was BASIC in the ROMs on the motherboard, AFAIK. There was a > cartridge that contained some kinds of extended BASIC, and of course you > could also run BASIC from disk if you had the disk drive. > From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Oct 29 21:17:27 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: VAXStation cable pinouts In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981028223455.00945100@mail.jps.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981029191727.0306d31c@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Bruce: As it turns out, ASUBI doesn't have it. But there's lots of useful stuff there, see: http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/jmcm/www/info/info.html Other pinouts: http://csgrad.cs.vt.edu/~tjohnson/pinouts/#video For Vaxstations, see: http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/misc/vs-cable.html http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/mvax_faq.html Perhaps these will help, Kevin At 10:34 PM 98/10/28 -0800, you wrote: > At one time, I had the URL of a web site where the fellow had listed a >method and pinouts to make a VAXStation II/GPX video cable complete with >mouse and KB connections as well as video. > > Does anyone recall where this is? I can't seem to find it. > > Thanks. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: >http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) >SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own >human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From roblwill at usaor.net Thu Oct 29 22:11:41 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? Message-ID: <199810300413.XAA02998@gate.usaor.net> Is a PS/1 machine considered to be in 'family one'? My school had a PS/1 486-25 (processor speed, not model#) Consultatnt (I think), that when the HD died, it booted to IBM BASIC. It was also able to access the drives, but was in ROM BASIC. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: PCjr with no disk drive? > Date: Thursday, October 29, 1998 10:09 PM > > the pcjr is like any other IBM family one machine in that it will boot to > basic unless it has a disk device or in the case of the pcjr, a cartridge > inthe slot. > > > In a message dated 10/29/98 9:08:03 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > From yowza at yowza.com Thu Oct 29 22:24:00 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: RMX In-Reply-To: <199810300413.XAA02998@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: Ooh, a money-making opportunity for somebody with a nasty real-time kernel laying around.... (Please don't mail me, mail Peter.) << Peter Loos Houston, TX USA - Wednesday, October 28, 1998 at 17:35:45 I need documentation for iRMX 86 operating system (same as iRMX I). Also, the set of floppy disks would be great, too. Willing to discuss most any reasonable price. >> -- Doug From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Oct 29 23:51:17 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: <199810292352.SAA05881@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: Hmmm. I've got a cartridge labeled Basic for the pc Jr. Now that I know the motherboard had basic on it I'll have to give it a try. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > There may have been an advanced BASIC or something on a cartridge, but I > think the ROM BASIC was in the M/B's ROM. > > -Jason > > *********************************************** > * Jason Willgruber * > * (roblwill@usaor.net) * > * * > * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * > * ICQ#-1730318 * > * /0\/0\ * > * > Long Live the 5170! * > * \___/ * > ************************************************ > > ---------- > > From: Joe > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Subject: Re: PCjr with no disk drive? > > Date: Thursday, October 29, 1998 1:15 PM > > > > At 09:08 AM 10/29/98 -0800, Sam said: > > > > >The PCjr had BASIC in ROM and didn't require a floppy to boot. > > > > Was the BASIC in a plug in cartridge and optional? > > > > Joe > > > > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 30 00:13:06 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981029181544.47dfe36e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Joe wrote: > At 09:08 AM 10/29/98 -0800, Sam said: > > >The PCjr had BASIC in ROM and didn't require a floppy to boot. > > Was the BASIC in a plug in cartridge and optional? As far as I know it was in the ROM on the motherboard. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 30 00:16:53 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Kurzweil KVS In-Reply-To: <19981030000006.13935.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > I would say it's probably more than 1%...but, is anyone here > familiar with sound waves, and what human speech looks like waveform > wise? Sure, but this discussion would be more appropriate on some other list. Or e-mail me privately and I can tell you what I know. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri Oct 30 00:26:33 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 29, 1998 10:13:06 PM Message-ID: <199810300626.XAA12821@calico.litterbox.com> When I used PC-jr's in high school, if memory serves they did have basic cartriges. They may have had basic in system rom too, but I know we used carts. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From red at bears.org Fri Oct 30 00:42:46 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > As far as I know it was in the ROM on the motherboard. If you turn the machine on with no disk in the drive and no cartridge in either slot, you get ROM BASIC. There is also a more advanced BASIC on a cartridge. If you turn the machine on with the BASIC cartridge in a slot, you get cartridge BASIC. This is not a guess. This is how my PCjr behaves. ok r. From billm at teleport.com Fri Oct 30 01:00:58 1998 From: billm at teleport.com (billm@teleport.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: World Power Systems scam In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Oct 08, 1998 03:38:00 PM Message-ID: <199810300700.XAA17096@user2.teleport.com> Just in case no on remembered the Miscreants name was Colonel David Winthrup ( I think ) Bill From gram at cnct.com Fri Oct 30 01:28:48 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: World Power Systems scam References: <199810300700.XAA17096@user2.teleport.com> Message-ID: <36396AB0.B74CC2BD@cnct.com> billm@teleport.com wrote: > > Just in case no on remembered the Miscreants name was > Colonel David Winthrup > ( I think ) If I recall correctly from Wayne Green's post-mortem on the scam in Kilobaud, he used several aliases during the period. (It's been a few years, and I never actually owned the magazines -- they were my roommate's. But a name something like Winthrop does ring a bell. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Fri Oct 30 01:01:56 1998 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <802566AD.002C003E.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > She'd explode faced with this dining room, then. There's about 15 systems > that I can see without even trying. Along with printers/monitors/etc. The > total number of processors is probably over 1000. How many are you counting for the DAP? Philip. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 30 05:46:02 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <199810301146.AA26583@world.std.com> < I've got cabling installed all over the place. I just need to work out < what I want to use it to connect to what... I have it beat... Beige RG58 for 10b2 and I am Da Wife!!! Actually due to the construction of the house it's pretty easy to string wire as needed to any room through the attic. I've had to do it for the TV distribution. My .02 is why did they go with BNC? Eithernet would do as well with F connectors and they are cheaper and easier to affix. I've done my share of connectors for RF in 25+ years from TNC, BNC, N, F, PL259s, RCA and XLRs to name a few. Allison From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Oct 30 09:38:41 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: References: <199810292352.SAA05881@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981030093841.2207668a@intellistar.net> At 09:51 PM 10/29/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hmmm. I've got a cartridge labeled Basic for the pc Jr. Now that I know >the motherboard had basic on it I'll have to give it a try. I have one too. I've never seen another. How rare are they? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Oct 30 09:41:49 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981030094149.2207643c@intellistar.net> At 01:42 AM 10/30/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > >> As far as I know it was in the ROM on the motherboard. > >If you turn the machine on with no disk in the drive and no cartridge in >either slot, you get ROM BASIC. > >There is also a more advanced BASIC on a cartridge. If you turn the >machine on with the BASIC cartridge in a slot, you get cartridge BASIC. > >This is not a guess. This is how my PCjr behaves. That's my understanding. There are three levels of BASIC for the Jr. Level 1 is the ROM BASIC, level 2 is the disk BASIC and level 3 is the cartridge BASIC. I was surprised that the cartridge BASIC was the most complete but that's what the manual says. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Oct 30 10:07:50 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: What is this? Strange keyboard Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981030100750.1d67662c@intellistar.net> I was wondering through a trift store the other day and found a odd keyboard. It's labeled "CompuNET 2000" and looks like a regular 101 key keyboard for a PC but it has two extra cables with miniture phono plugs on the ends. One with two contacts and the other with three. It also has two phone jacks on the back of the keyboard. There are a couple of extra keys on the board. One is marked PHONE and the other is marked LINE. Some of the numeric key pad keys are marked REDIAL, MUTE, VOL, OPER, etc. anyone know what this is for? Joe From rector at usa.net Fri Oct 30 08:07:06 1998 From: rector at usa.net (Dan Rector) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? Message-ID: <3639C80A.5597@usa.net> The PCjr has become a 'project' for me lately. I've been trying to find out all I could. I finally decided to add one to my collection and this past weekend went out and came home with 3 all for $1.50 plus a Commodore Vic-20 to boot. Here's what I've been able to find: The PCjr came in two flavors: the entry (model 4) and enhanced (model 67): Configurations 4860-004 - System unit w. 64kb, 62 key IR keyboard, two cartridge slots 4860-067 - System unit w. 128kb (includes 64kb memory and Display Expansion feature), 62 key IR keyboard, two cartridge slots, 5.25 inch 360kb FDD and adapter more details can be found at: http://www.can.ibm.com/helpware/4860.html There is also a fairly informative site at: http://www.pcenterprises.com/catjr/ -- Dan Rector From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 30 08:11:44 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:49 2005 Subject: What is this? Strange keyboard Message-ID: <981030091144.23e0014f@trailing-edge.com> > I was wondering through a trift store the other day and found a odd >keyboard. It's labeled "CompuNET 2000" and looks like a regular 101 key >keyboard for a PC but it has two extra cables with miniture phono plugs on >the ends. One with two contacts and the other with three. It also has two >phone jacks on the back of the keyboard. There are a couple of extra keys >on the board. One is marked PHONE and the other is marked LINE. Some of >the numeric key pad keys are marked REDIAL, MUTE, VOL, OPER, etc. anyone >know what this is for? It is - surprise! - a keyboard-phone. Those extra cables go to a headset, and the numeric keypad works as a DTMF dialer. Tim. From william at ans.net Fri Oct 30 08:22:23 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I agree! I've never had a hub fail. On the other hand I've had coax > cables fail spontaneously (maybe because I didn't go thru the trouble of > soldering them :) However, I see Tony's point about 20 years from now > trying to replace a failed ASIC in a hub. By that time though, good luck > finding RG-58 coax either. RG-58/U will be around for a long time. Fifty years old already... I am still trying to find out what "RG" stands for - that is what the military named coax starting in 1942. "UG" as well (for connectors - the familiar BNC "T" is actually a UG-274A/U)... William Donzelli william@ans.net From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 30 08:17:00 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: References: <9810292253.ZM5990@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981030081700.00f47410@pc> At 05:22 PM 10/29/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote: > >For your next aniversary, buy your wife a wireless LAN. I don't miss the >wires a bit. I recently built a new home, and I thought I was being so forward-thinking by wiring it with Cat5 - then I started reading about the low-cost wireless devices coming down the pike. I did install an Aironet bridge back to the office, though, delivering T-1-ish speeds through the 4 1/2 miles of air, and allowing roaming PCMCIA wireless nodes at home at the same time. ObCC: Some of my collection will be connected over this link. :-) - John From william at ans.net Fri Oct 30 08:57:31 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > But I've not found an affordable source of fibre yet... Wow, another thing RCS/RI has LOTS of! Need any? Otherwise is goes on Ebay! Sorry to be so blatently commercial about this stuff, but RCS/RI is in a bit of a financial crunch. We need to spend decent monet to upgrade our facilities (i.e., purchase LOTS of shelving units!). William Donzelli william@ans.net From gene at ehrich.com Fri Oct 30 09:26:20 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: <3639C80A.5597@usa.net> Message-ID: <4.0.2.19981030092555.00999d90@popmail.voicenet.com> Before I got rid of my PCjr a number of years ago I had it running with 640k, full size PC keyboard, two diskette drives and a 2400 BPS modem. It wasn't a bad little machine. gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Oct 30 11:09:22 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: VCF II pix on-line Message-ID: VCF II pix now available on my web pages. The direct URL for those who don't want to wander thru the menus: http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/jcgm-vcfii.html They are not all captioned yet, so anyone who would like to throw in IDs on some of the pix missing captions are welcome. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 30 11:35:09 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Tbar data monitor, looking for... Message-ID: <199810301735.AA23216@world.std.com> Just found a TBar Explorer, a serial data monitor model 5915-10 from all I can see. Its working but I'm looking for schematics and manuals for it. Remarkably it seems to be of 1985 vintage! Allison From erd at infinet.com Fri Oct 30 11:52:55 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Fibre In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 30, 98 09:57:31 am Message-ID: <199810301752.MAA25994@user2.infinet.com> > > > But I've not found an affordable source of fibre yet... > > Wow, another thing RCS/RI has LOTS of! Need any? Otherwise is goes on > Ebay! No... not eBay! I'm in the market for fibre and accessories. What have you got? -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 29 20:28:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <19981030021853.26307.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 30, 98 02:18:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1156 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981030/31663e8d/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Fri Oct 30 12:08:39 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: VCF II pix on-line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, James Willing wrote: > They are not all captioned yet, so anyone who would like to throw in IDs > on some of the pix missing captions are welcome. Great stuff, Jim! Is it OK for me to violate your copyright on pix of the machines I own? Here are some ids (owners), starting with the DC-1 clone: digi-comp 1 (dc), digi-comp 1 (dc), swtpc (dc), h8 (dc) altair (dc), elf (dc), elf (dc), pdp-8/m (cm) superpet (la), apple /// (si), commodore b128 (la); pet (la), schlock (si) atari (ra), atari (ra), osborne (rs), osborn 3 (j); osborn vixen prototype (ds); osborn vixen (rs) mac portable (j), lisa 2 (j), vectra (rs); ti (rs), ibm p70 (rs); t3100 (rs); ti cc40 (rs); hp 75c (rs) (I'll let roger id this row; it's mostly his) GO Lombard (ds); Epson HX-20 (ds); EO 440 (ds); Epson PX-8 (ds), Compaq Concerto (ds); Covergent workSlate (ds), Headlands prototype (ds); Momenta (ds), GRiD 2260 (ds) Olivetti M15 (ds); HP 110 (ds), Morrow Pivot (ds); Kaypro 2000 (ds), HP (fm), HP 9830 (ds) HP 9825 (ds), HP 85 (ds), HP OmniShare (ds), AIM 65 (si) GRiD 1537 (ds), GRiD Compass (ds), Hyperion (ds), Osborne 3 (j) HP 9100 (fm), HP 9100 (fm), IPC (fm), HP 3000 (fm) Ampro Bookshelf Computer (cm), Tek (pb), 3b1 (pc), 9100 inards? inards, unix pc (pc), sun (pc), sun 386i (pc); sun (pc) (I'll leave this row to Hans Franke) ???, ec-1 (ds), et-3400 (ds), Science Fair Microcomputer Trainer (ds) RCA COSMAC MicroMonitor (ds), IBM 5100 (mj), Data General WalkAbout (ds), MAD (rh) MAD (rf), MAD (rh), Vector 1 (j), Poly-88 (j) Sol (j), Sorceror (j), ... dc = Doug Coward la = Larry Anderson si = Sam Ismail ra = Robert Arnold rs = Roger Sinasohn j = Jarod Somebody ds = Doug Salot mj = Marvin Johnson rh = Richard Harington fm = Franck McConnel (sp?) pc = Paul Coad pb = Philip Belbin -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Fri Oct 30 12:16:34 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: VCF II pix on-line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > Great stuff, Jim! Damn, that wasn't supposed to go to the list. But as long as it did, let me complete my malfeasance: cm = Chuck McMannis (sp?) -- Doug From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 30 13:08:42 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <199810301146.AA26583@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199810301146.AA26583@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19981030190842.31989.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > My .02 is why did they go with BNC? Eithernet would do as well with > F connectors and they are cheaper and easier to affix. I've done my > share of connectors for RF in 25+ years from TNC, BNC, N, F, PL259s, > RCA and XLRs to name a few. So that the connector would actually fit on the handle or bracket of cards mounted on tight spacing. F connectors are huge. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 30 13:19:11 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: PCjr with no disk drive? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981030094149.2207643c@intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:41:49) References: <3.0.1.16.19981030094149.2207643c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <19981030191911.32087.qmail@brouhaha.com> Joe wrote: > That's my understanding. There are three levels of BASIC for the Jr. > Level 1 is the ROM BASIC, level 2 is the disk BASIC and level 3 is the > cartridge BASIC. I was surprised that the cartridge BASIC was the most > complete but that's what the manual says. I doubt that the catridge BASIC by itself is a true superset of disk BASIC; I think you have to have both the disk and cartridge to get everything. I don't think the cartridge includes any of the disk I/O statements and functions. But the manual is at home, so I can't check it at the moment. Cheers, Eric From yowza at yowza.com Fri Oct 30 13:27:11 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Help in MD needed In-Reply-To: <19981030190842.31989.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Is there a friendly collector in Maryland who'd be willing to help me pick up and ship about 100 lbs of goodies to California? I'd compensate you for your trouble, and offer to return the favor next time you hear of some goodies available in computer-rich Silicon Valley. Thanks, Doug From william at ans.net Fri Oct 30 13:54:31 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Fibre In-Reply-To: <199810301752.MAA25994@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: > No... not eBay! I'm in the market for fibre and accessories. What have > you got? We have quite a bit of dual ST to ST fibre, in lengths of 20 to 35 meters. I think we have a few 10baseFL transcievers as well. William Donzelli william@ans.net From adept at Mcs.Net Fri Oct 30 13:57:59 1998 From: adept at Mcs.Net (The Adept) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Fibre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've got some Sun SBUS cards (spendy) that I'd sell. Dan On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > No... not eBay! I'm in the market for fibre and accessories. What have > > you got? > > We have quite a bit of dual ST to ST fibre, in lengths of 20 to 35 meters. > > I think we have a few 10baseFL transcievers as well. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > > From david.ward at nist.gov Fri Oct 30 14:20:59 1998 From: david.ward at nist.gov (David E. Ward Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Help in MD needed In-Reply-To: References: <19981030190842.31989.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199810302014.PAA09295@email.nist.gov> At 01:27 PM 10/30/98 -0600, you wrote: >Is there a friendly collector in Maryland who'd be willing to help me pick >up and ship about 100 lbs of goodies to California? I'd compensate you >for your trouble, and offer to return the favor next time you hear of some >goodies available in computer-rich Silicon Valley. > >Thanks, >Doug > Doug, What, when, and where in MD is your goodie pile? Is it one item at 100# or several smaller items that total 100#? I'd have to work it in around the family schedule, etc.... Best Regards, David Ward ******************************************************* David E. Ward Jr. National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) Building 220 Room B-113 Gaithersburg, Maryland 20899-0001 Tel: (301) 975-3209 Fax: (301) 975-5360 E-mail: david.ward@nist.gov ******************************************************* From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Oct 30 14:45:40 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. References: <199810301146.AA26583@world.std.com> Message-ID: <363A2573.FED1CD3C@bigfoot.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > < I've got cabling installed all over the place. I just need to work out > < what I want to use it to connect to what... > > I have it beat... Beige RG58 for 10b2 and I am Da Wife!!! Actually > due to the construction of the house it's pretty easy to string wire > as needed to any room through the attic. I've had to do it for the TV > distribution. I use stock 58 black in the walls to wall plates and beige for the exposed cables from the plates to the machines. Bore a 3/4" hole in the top plate of the wall in the attic, or in the bottom if from the basement (as mine is) and you can pass even the BNC through. Make sure to put foam sealant around the excess hole though to keep Mickey and his mouse friends from using the hole for a new house, after you shove a bit of plain steel wool in the hole (to hold the foam from going too far and keep te mice from chewing the foam anyway) > My .02 is why did they go with BNC? Eithernet would do as well with > F connectors and they are cheaper and easier to affix. I've done my > share of connectors for RF in 25+ years from TNC, BNC, N, F, PL259s, > RCA and XLRs to name a few. Not sure if F connectors were around back then, or if they were very much in use. Also it makes things much harder to disconnect. That's why they probably didn't use PL259 and SO238 combos since every had their fill of threaded connectors from the twinax days. From william at ans.net Fri Oct 30 14:58:36 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <363A2573.FED1CD3C@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: > > My .02 is why did they go with BNC? Eithernet would do as well with > > F connectors and they are cheaper and easier to affix. I've done my > > share of connectors for RF in 25+ years from TNC, BNC, N, F, PL259s, > > RCA and XLRs to name a few. > > Not sure if F connectors were around back then, or if they were very much in > use. Also it makes things much harder to disconnect. That's why they > probably didn't use PL259 and SO238 combos since every had their fill of > threaded connectors from the twinax days. I have to agree here. F connectors may be electrically nice (they offer a much cleaner connection Z-wise), but for human factors, the things plain suck. They are way too easy to crossthread. BNCs are just about the easiest coax connector to install (except for the old WECo types, but they do not secure), and they work just fine at 10 Mbps. Also, I have never seen an F connector "T". BNC "T"s are quite common. Using existing parts is always better than inventing new ones. William Donzelli william@ans.net From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 30 15:45:34 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <199810302145.AA22906@world.std.com> < cables from the plates to the machines. Bore a 3/4" hole in the top plat < the wall in the attic, or in the bottom if from the basement (as mine is < and you can pass even the BNC through. Make sure to put foam sealant aro Been there and done that. < Not sure if F connectors were around back then, or if they were very muc They were but BNC is later than the original eithernet which used expensive and hard to assemble Type N. < use. Also it makes things much harder to disconnect. That's why they I can understand quick disconnect. Also It may have been an artifact of the WANG loop drops that used RG58/59 and BNC. < probably didn't use PL259 and SO238 combos since every had their fill o < threaded connectors from the twinax days. They are just plain too big. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 30 15:45:46 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <199810302145.AA23513@world.std.com> < So that the connector would actually fit on the handle or bracket of < cards mounted on tight spacing. F connectors are huge. We talking about the same connector? F is the same one used to TV RF. Likely that's why they didn't use it (confuse 'net with video). However both are about the same size (give or take a few thousanths). The F connector uses solid conductor wire. That may have been the reason there too, solid center is less flexible.. Allison From cdrmool at interlog.com Fri Oct 30 16:01:52 1998 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (cdrmool@interlog.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: To Mark Tapley Message-ID: Hi Mark, just in case my e-mail to your address doesn't work again (my e-mail is going to be labelled an X-file pretty soon as nothing I send arrives and not much from the list is making its way to me). Anyway I'm at 55 Brookmount Rd. Toronto, Ontario Canada M4L 3N3. Please send the Rainbow doc's (I'll pass on the stand though). Tell me the amount and I'll get it too you right away. TIA Colan P.S. apologies to others on the list for this off topic letter but I didn't want to lose this opportunity for to Dec Rainbow stuff. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 30 16:09:02 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: 10-base-2 connectors (was Re: Microvaxen bits etc.) In-Reply-To: <199810302145.AA23513@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199810302145.AA23513@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19981030220902.588.qmail@brouhaha.com> I foolishly wrote: > So that the connector would actually fit on the handle or bracket of > cards mounted on tight spacing. F connectors are huge. Allison replied: > We talking about the same connector? F is the same one used to TV RF. > Likely that's why they didn't use it (confuse 'net with video). You're right of course, I was thinking of the PL-259 and SO-239 UHF connectors. Sorry. PCI and ISA cards with F connectors (for purposes other than Ethernet) are not uncommon; for instance, TV and FM tuner cards. Eric From dburrows at netpath.net Fri Oct 30 16:09:32 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <01eb01be0452$af586db0$a60b0b0b@p166> >We talking about the same connector? F is the same one used to TV RF. >Likely that's why they didn't use it (confuse 'net with video). However >both are about the same size (give or take a few thousanths). The F >connector uses solid conductor wire. That may have been the reason >there too, solid center is less flexible.. Not to mention all the noise problems when the film on the center conductor is not scraped off when you assemble them. At least with BNC you have a gold plated pin that is either soldered or crimped that is making the actual connection. If it were not for the bad connection problems I have encountered I would gladly use F connectors. Dan From yowza at yowza.com Fri Oct 30 16:29:52 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Help in MD needed In-Reply-To: <199810302014.PAA09295@email.nist.gov> Message-ID: Thanks, David and others. Tentatively, I've got a volunteer to pick up the stuff (some core and flexowriters). -- Doug From franke at sbs.de Fri Oct 30 18:04:10 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: TI 745 for sale Message-ID: <199810302244.XAA23607@marina.fth.sbs.de> Kenneth Miller has a TI 700 mobile Terminal for sale - maybe some of you remember this nice pice off portable Hardware (Termoprinter TTY with 300 Bd acoustic couppler). Please contact him directly when interested. >> Silent 700 Electronic Data Terminal Model 745. This is a real relic from the early 1980's. Does it work? I don't know, I haven't tried it. It includes a built in 300 baud modem with acoustic coupler and a thermal printer with a partial roll of paper. The unit is self contained but the cover is not shown in the picture. The shipping weight will be 16 pounds. << Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 30 12:35:28 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <802566AD.002C003E.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Oct 30, 98 08:01:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 194 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981030/6b990590/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 30 12:39:43 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <199810301146.AA26583@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 30, 98 06:46:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 834 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981030/f73ee44d/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Fri Oct 30 16:53:11 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: VCF II pix on-line References: Message-ID: <363A4357.43B66585@rain.org> Doug Yowza wrote: > Here are some ids (owners), starting with the DC-1 clone: > > MAD (rf), MAD (rh), Vector 1 (j), Poly-88 (j) ^^^^^^^^^^^ I don't recall selling it at the show, and the last time I checked, it was still sitting on my bench :). > j = Jarod Somebody > mj = Marvin Johnson > > -- Doug From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 30 17:08:08 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <199810302308.AA00743@world.std.com> < I have to agree here. F connectors may be electrically nice (they offer < much cleaner connection Z-wise), but for human factors, the things plai < suck. They are way too easy to crossthread. BNCs are just about the < easiest coax connector to install (except for the old WECo types, but th < do not secure), and they work just fine at 10 Mbps. BNC is a UHF constant impedence connector. They work very well at several GHz! They just don't like high RF power (voltage). < Also, I have never seen an F connector "T". BNC "T"s are quite common. < Using existing parts is always better than inventing new ones. When BNC started to be used for Eithernet, Ts were expensive and got cheap due to volume. F connectors are common to cable industry and if they needed Ts they would be cheap too. Cat5 wire is cheaper though but I wouldn't use them around receivers or transmitters! Allison From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Oct 30 18:42:10 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: 10-base-2 connectors (was Re: Microvaxen bits etc.) References: <199810302145.AA23513@world.std.com> <19981030220902.588.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <363A5CE1.2C2DD24B@bigfoot.com> Eric Smith wrote: > PCI and ISA cards with F connectors (for purposes other than Ethernet) are > not uncommon; for instance, TV and FM tuner cards. Mostly to keep in line with the standard for TV and FM radio I imagine. Not too many 300 ohm twinlead screw connections in use for TV any more. From Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU Fri Oct 30 18:46:21 1998 From: Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Lisa stuff update Message-ID: <10530420@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 261 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981030/7c7d4779/attachment.bin From dhansen at zebra.net Fri Oct 30 18:52:22 1998 From: dhansen at zebra.net (david) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: need some parts References: Message-ID: <363A5F46.2BB8@zebra.net> Anyone know where I can get a mouse pad for a sun optical mouse? I'm also looking for an external case to house some scsi seagate hot-swappable drives that I got. david From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Oct 30 19:16:14 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Mac emulators? Message-ID: <199810310117.UAA26495@gate.usaor.net> Hello everyone! Is there such a thing as a Mac emulator for a PC? I'd like to download some Mac stuff from the internet, but the only computer that has internet access is a PC. Any suggestions (besides buying one of those Mac/PC programs)? ThAnX, -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ From dhansen at zebra.net Fri Oct 30 19:33:04 1998 From: dhansen at zebra.net (david) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Mac emulators? References: <199810310117.UAA26495@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <363A68D0.6CD0@zebra.net> Jason Willgruber wrote: > > Hello everyone! > > Is there such a thing as a Mac emulator for a PC? I'd like to download > some Mac stuff from the internet, but the only computer that has internet > access is a PC. > > Any suggestions (besides buying one of those Mac/PC programs)? If all you want is to download them and pass them on to a Mac, then you won't need an emulator. Just download them as binaries and put them on floppy (or whichever media you desire) and transfer them to the Mac. You don't even have to have a special format for the disks, Macs can read a dos format. If you wish to run them on a pc then you will need an emulator. david From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Oct 30 19:34:20 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Mac emulators? Message-ID: <41833245.363a691c@aol.com> there's one i have on cd called executor2 that runs most but not all pre system7 apps pretty good. not good with sound though. In a message dated 10/30/98 8:19:28 PM US Eastern Standard Time, roblwill@usaor.net writes: > Hello everyone! > > Is there such a thing as a Mac emulator for a PC? I'd like to download > some Mac stuff from the internet, but the only computer that has internet > access is a PC. > > Any suggestions (besides buying one of those Mac/PC programs)? > > ThAnX, From mann at pa.dec.com Fri Oct 30 19:40:13 1998 From: mann at pa.dec.com (Tim Mann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II stuff!) Message-ID: <363A6A7C.9CBC7ADE@pa.dec.com> Since my name has been invoked, I thought I'd jump in here. Please don't think I ever pointed anyone to www.warez.com, an extremely icky site with pictures of genitals and zillions of popup consoles that attack you as soon as you get there. The useful site for low-level disk manipulation programs that I pointed Larry to is www.diskwarez.com. Also, I'm not working on TRS-80 Model II emulation -- I'm just thinking about doing that in the future. I'm hardly an expert on the Model II. At Galactic Software I worked in the same room as one, but I did all my work on the Model I and III. I would be very interested in getting a copy of the technical manual for the Model II or 12, though! -- Tim Mann , Compaq Systems Research Center http://www.research.digital.com/SRC/personal/Tim_Mann/ From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 30 19:52:48 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. Message-ID: <199810310152.AA26634@world.std.com> < Allison... I am supprised - very. The BNC connector is a nice, easy to < fit, reliable, waterproof, connector. The F-connector is a horrible < little thing that (at least in the common version used in the UK) uses < the central wire of the cable as the plug pin. I don't want to trust tha < thing with my data. They are actually very reliable and the cable industry uses them by the ton. What often happens though is like any fine treaded item they can be cross threaded and if the recepticle does not have a good spring connector for the center wire then things fail. Considering I have a house wide master antenna and also a house wide cable distribution there must be at least 50 more F connectors in use and none have ever given me grief. Also I'm used to the older fully soldered BNCs (I still have the better part of a pound coffee can of them) as I use them for all the O'scopes, RF generators, radios (scanners, aircraft) and anything else that demands a good shielded connection. But they are a PITA to assemble. The one I consider the worst is the RCA, no lock, and tends to be loose and noisy over time. Very popular with audio and video. I actually have a bin full of locking rings that go around them to clamp them on. Any test equipment with them installed gets opened and a BNC replacement unless there is good reason not to. < What, no Belling-Lee coaxial plugs (used for TV aerials in the UK, and < thus very common over here) ? Or Pye coax plugs (screw-lock connectors, < not common at all, but I have a reasonable stock of them)? And of course < the SMA/SMB/SMC connectors. I didn't want to go into some of the odd and esoteric like the TNCs. Working with RF over the years I've hit most of them including pipe (waveguides). Some types of cable like various sized hardlines from the rg174 sized to the 2" stuff can use some odd connectors as well. Heck I've been known to fix a sliced 10B5 cable using a pen knife and vinyl electical tape until the Mill coms people could get to it. They were horrified when the found it but, I finshed my printing and the segment was working fine. Cables are part smoke and part majik. The majik is putting the smoke back in when it leaks. Allison From marvin at rain.org Fri Oct 30 19:59:47 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Xerox 860 IPS References: <363A6A7C.9CBC7ADE@pa.dec.com> Message-ID: <363A6F13.657EB1F@rain.org> I was just given a Xerox 860 IPS computer today complete with monitor, keyboard, and printer. One slight problem is that so far, no docs were included (although they will keep their eyes open for them.) Anyone know what this thing is and how to power it up? This one has a multiple connector plug that appears to be how power gets to the unit. Other than that, I have not a clue yet what to do with it. Any help would be appreciated! A quick web search didn't pull up much that looked useful. From dhansen at zebra.net Fri Oct 30 20:05:23 1998 From: dhansen at zebra.net (david) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: another request Message-ID: <363A7063.5D7C@zebra.net> While I'm asking, does anyone know where I can find some software to use with a HP C1710A optical jukebox? Preferrably for the solaris platform, linux or windows (NT) will be acceptable if there isn't anything else. david From yowza at yowza.com Fri Oct 30 20:12:36 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Xerox 860 IPS In-Reply-To: <363A6F13.657EB1F@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Marvin wrote: > I was just given a Xerox 860 IPS computer today complete with monitor, > keyboard, and printer. One slight problem is that so far, no docs were > included (although they will keep their eyes open for them.) Anyone know > what this thing is and how to power it up? This one has a multiple A quick check of the Xerox Spotter's Guide says that you've got yourself a word processor of some sort: http://home.eznet.net/~heiny/mesa/ident.html (I had this URL handy cuz Sam The Man took a bunch of us to a Xerox rescue party the other night. I'll let him describe the booty if he wants to.) -- Doug From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Fri Oct 30 20:23:13 1998 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Apple IIe (fwd) Message-ID: Someone wants to get rid of their Apple //e. That someone's message is below. Please respond to the original poster: Reply-to: mememe@sirius.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 14:14:24 +0100 From: mememejstrebel Subject: Apple IIe My parents have our first computer, an Apple IIe sitting in my old bedroom, and I would love to find a new home for it that didn't involve the dump. Can you help me? -Judy Strebel Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web page update: 09/28/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 30 20:24:52 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: What is this? Strange keyboard In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981030100750.1d67662c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Joe wrote: > I was wondering through a trift store the other day and found a odd > keyboard. It's labeled "CompuNET 2000" and looks like a regular 101 key > keyboard for a PC but it has two extra cables with miniture phono plugs on > the ends. One with two contacts and the other with three. It also has two > phone jacks on the back of the keyboard. There are a couple of extra keys > on the board. One is marked PHONE and the other is marked LINE. Some of > the numeric key pad keys are marked REDIAL, MUTE, VOL, OPER, etc. anyone > know what this is for? I think this was a keyboard with a built-in phone. This is pretty recent (within the last two years). It was good for call centers (i.e. operations with lots of telephone operators for telemarketing or what not). I have brochures for it somewhere. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From aaron at wfi-inc.com Fri Oct 30 20:31:12 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Mac emulators? In-Reply-To: <199810310117.UAA26495@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > Is there such a thing as a Mac emulator for a PC? I'd like to download > some Mac stuff from the internet, but the only computer that has internet > access is a PC. Try http://www.vmac.org. It's a nifty hardware emulator for a Mac Plus; the only "downside" is that you need to capture the rom image from your own Mac Plus (copyright issue). On my PII 266 it runs at about the speed of a MacII. The site also has links to OS's, software, etc. Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." --> Scott Draves From oajones at bright.net Fri Oct 30 20:41:13 1998 From: oajones at bright.net (oajones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Mac emulators? References: Message-ID: <363A78C9.5DE3@bright.net> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > > > Is there such a thing as a Mac emulator for a PC? I'd like to download > > some Mac stuff from the internet, but the only computer that has internet > > access is a PC. > > Try http://www.vmac.org. It's a nifty hardware emulator for a Mac Plus; > the only "downside" is that you need to capture the rom image from your > own Mac Plus (copyright issue). On my PII 266 it runs at about the speed > of a MacII. > > The site also has links to OS's, software, etc. > > Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." > --> Scott Draves Hi Aaron, I downloaded the vMac emulator. I own two Mac Plus computers and I still don't have a ROM image. In my opinion it is the biggest pain in the rear I ever saw to get the ROM image. Just thought I would throw out my two cents. Have a nice day! :) --Alan oajones@bright.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 30 19:45:28 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Xerox 860 IPS In-Reply-To: <363A6F13.657EB1F@rain.org> References: <363A6A7C.9CBC7ADE@pa.dec.com> Message-ID: >I was just given a Xerox 860 IPS computer today complete with monitor, >keyboard, and printer. One slight problem is that so far, no docs were >included (although they will keep their eyes open for them.) Anyone know >what this thing is and how to power it up? This one has a multiple >connector plug that appears to be how power gets to the unit. Other than >that, I have not a clue yet what to do with it. Any help would be >appreciated! A quick web search didn't pull up much that looked useful. It's EVIL, run away, run away!!! Seriously, I've been surprised I've not seen mention of it before this. I used one back in the Late 80's while onboard a Frigate, the US Navy apparently had a lot of them at one time. It was used as a Word Processing machine, not sure if it can do anything else, IIRC the software would all be on 8" floppy. For the time it had a great display, but the Word Processing Software sucked as I recall (or is that just the bad memories of the 200+ page document on it I had to update). I'm afraid I've no idea how to set it up or boot it, as I recall someone else had to get me into the document so I could edit it. This was at the same time I was one of the people they called if the Harris Minicomputer crashed, or they anyone had PC troubles. I later worked with someone that told me he took great pleasure in dumping one down a flight of stairs when he was stationed in Rota. Needless to say, they weren't well loved by the Naval personnel that had to use them. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Oct 30 22:48:06 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: need some parts In-Reply-To: <363A5F46.2BB8@zebra.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981030224806.2c6ff214@intellistar.net> David, Yeah, I can probably get you one. I have a friend that deals in used PC stuff and he had/has some Mouse Systems optical mice and pads for the PC. It's exactly the same mouse except with a different connector. It'll probably be a week or two before I see him though. Can't help with the case. Joe At 06:52 PM 10/30/98 -0600, you wrote: >Anyone know where I can get a mouse pad for a sun optical mouse? I'm >also looking for an external case to house some scsi seagate >hot-swappable drives that I got. > >david > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Oct 30 22:59:12 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: What is this? Strange keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19981030100750.1d67662c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981030225912.2c6f983c@intellistar.net> Thanks for the info. Any idea what the two cables are for? If you find the brochures, I'd like to get a copy. Joe At 06:24 PM 10/30/98 -0800, you wrote: >On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Joe wrote: > >> I was wondering through a trift store the other day and found a odd >> keyboard. It's labeled "CompuNET 2000" and looks like a regular 101 key >> keyboard for a PC but it has two extra cables with miniture phono plugs on >> the ends. One with two contacts and the other with three. It also has two >> phone jacks on the back of the keyboard. There are a couple of extra keys >> on the board. One is marked PHONE and the other is marked LINE. Some of >> the numeric key pad keys are marked REDIAL, MUTE, VOL, OPER, etc. anyone >> know what this is for? > >I think this was a keyboard with a built-in phone. This is pretty recent >(within the last two years). It was good for call centers (i.e. >operations with lots of telephone operators for telemarketing or what >not). I have brochures for it somewhere. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Oct 30 23:07:04 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: What is this? Commodore Magic Voice Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981030230704.2c6f8340@intellistar.net> Any idea what this is? It looked interesting so I grabbed it. I looks like it plugs into the ROM socket. It has a ROM socket and two RCA jacks on it. Joe From aaron at wfi-inc.com Fri Oct 30 21:08:17 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: need some parts In-Reply-To: <363A5F46.2BB8@zebra.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, david wrote: > Anyone know where I can get a mouse pad for a sun optical mouse? I'm > also looking for an external case to house some scsi seagate > hot-swappable drives that I got. Type-3 or type-4? I have an extra type-3, if that's what you need, LMK... Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." --> Scott Draves From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Oct 30 21:24:31 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: About VCF 2.0 and system design Message-ID: <199810310324.TAA19643@saul6.u.washington.edu> I keep meaning to post a "reaction to the VCF" message. Since I have to do a lot of compilers homework at the moment, now is the perfect time. :) I enjoyed the VCF and will come next time. (I may bring my Kaypro to show to people, or perhaps just software -- there were other Kaypro demos there. I will probably bring my HP-97 if I still have it. I will definitely bring my electromechanical Marchant desk calculator if it's working then.) I do have to say that it was a little disappointing, because I didn't see some of the machines I wanted to see (or if I did see them, e.g., at the Computer Museum, they weren't running). Those would be old machines that are cool by modern standards, instead of being cool by old standards -- Amiga, Perq, Acorn, Symbolics, Be, NeXT, maybe AT&T 3B, Blit, Sony with NeWS, PDP-10, PDP-11 with GT40, PDP-12, LINC, PDP-1. The speeches were fantastic and I should have gone to more of them. The flea market was useful but not as cool as I had hoped. Also some people were selling worthless stuff or were obviously non-hobbyists who were drafted to sell things. (I don't object to non-hobbyists with knowledge and interest nearly as much as I object to non-hobbyists who have no clues or scruples.) It concerns me greatly that I didn't meet many people my own age (24) and that many people there were in fact much older than I am. Now, as for the "system design" part of the title... I have this ongoing ideal (crusade, project, romantic vision) of designing a fantastic new computer, or at least a *sensible* new computer. We now have computing power to spare for frills as well as function; many design ideas have been tried before and their consequences are known to some degree; disasters have been proved to be dis- asters (often more than once!). It surprises me that I haven't seen much interest in this. BTW, the VCF is quite relevant to this topic because the concept of "look at all these computers at once and compare them" is extremely useful. I can think of two problems, though: - We had a thread about designing your own CPU. We've also had discussions about the lack of schematics and technical info. So it seems that hardware is less accessible to the individual amateur, and it's very difficult for the amateur to break through to the next generation. I don't know if it's true, but it seems that way. - Also, information is disappearing. There's relatively copious documentation about old hardware, but not much about old software (or old software itself). Didn't someone try to put together an archive of software info? I haven't heard much about it. Although hardware is important and my ideal computer is going to have super-kick-butt hardware, the hardware designers seem to be working things out on their own -- it's the software market that needs a poke or two. Let me know what you think. -- Derek From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 30 21:43:10 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: About VCF 2.0 and system design In-Reply-To: <199810310324.TAA19643@saul6.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > I do have to say that it was a little disappointing, because I didn't see some > of the machines I wanted to see (or if I did see them, e.g., at the Computer > Museum, they weren't running). Those would be old machines that are cool by > modern standards, instead of being cool by old standards -- Amiga, Perq, Acorn, > Symbolics, Be, NeXT, maybe AT&T 3B, Blit, Sony with NeWS, PDP-10, PDP-11 with > GT40, PDP-12, LINC, PDP-1. There was a NeXT cube on display (not running), an Amiga that never made it out of the box (my fault), someone was going to bring a Be but canceled out at the last moment, and as for the rest of the stuff, it all depends on who brings what to exhibit. Next year we hope to at least double if not triple the number of individual exhibitors, thus bringing more breadth and depth to the exhibit (more people to exhibit more things and put more time into what they are exhibiting). And if you can find a PDP-1 to exhibit, I'll happily expend the resources to get it running. > The flea market was useful but not as cool as I had hoped. Also some people > were selling worthless stuff or were obviously non-hobbyists who were drafted > to sell things. (I don't object to non-hobbyists with knowledge and interest > nearly as much as I object to non-hobbyists who have no clues or scruples.) Nobody was convinced to come just to fill out the vendor area if that's what you are implying. There were some people there who basically sell old computer stuff because they know there's a market for it, but otherwise know nothing about what they are selling. If I had more vendors than I could give space to I would carefully pick and choose who I let in. However, it was the other way around, and I had to do a lot of marketing to get as many vendors as possible to make the flea market full enough to be worthwhile. > It concerns me greatly that I didn't meet many people my own age (24) > and that many people there were in fact much older than I am. I hope to change that as the event grows and expands to draw in a younger crowd. You should actually be glad that there were a lot of old guys there who you could talk to, ask questions and learn from. They're the guys with all the knowledge of this old stuff. > It surprises me that I haven't seen much interest in this. BTW, the VCF is > quite relevant to this topic because the concept of "look at all these > computers at once and compare them" is extremely useful. One of the things the VCF is useful for is to be able to see the trends of computing over the years. It allows you to look back at some of the designs and see what features made it into our current day and which ones dead-ended on an evolutionary limb. > I can think of two problems, though: > > - We had a thread about designing your own CPU. We've also had > discussions about the lack of schematics and technical info. > So it seems that hardware is less accessible to the individual > amateur, and it's very difficult for the amateur to break through > to the next generation. > > I don't know if it's true, but it seems that way. Again, this is something I hope to start changing as I emphasize homebrew as a major part of the next and all subsequent VCF's. > - Also, information is disappearing. There's relatively copious > documentation about old hardware, but not much about old software > (or old software itself). Didn't someone try to put together an > archive of software info? I haven't heard much about it. There are many on the web. I'm in the process of planning a rather large one that will include any and every bit of software that comes into the VCF archives. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From gram at cnct.com Fri Oct 30 22:55:04 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. References: <199810310152.AA26634@world.std.com> Message-ID: <363A9828.C13D6C30@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > Also I'm used to the older fully soldered BNCs (I still have the better > part of a pound coffee can of them) as I use them for all the O'scopes, > RF generators, radios (scanners, aircraft) and anything else that demands > a good shielded connection. But they are a PITA to assemble. Yes, remembering the "joys" of soldering BNC bulkhead connectors on C-5A fueltank walls, up on a maintenance stand while the steady wind down the channel that caused Travis Air Force Base to previously be a Naval Air Station (for carrier training) is making the wings flap up and down continuously, while the battery-powered soldering iron is fading like a dead match. Couldn't use "powered" soldering irons or guns, after all there's kerosene fumes on the other side of that metal wall. Soldering BNC while doing deep knee bends in a 20-knot wind at 03:00 (50 degrees still temp, dunno the wind chill, the wind having crossed the slew from the San Francisco Bay) with a near-dead iron probably did more to convert me to baseT than any conceivable technical details about better resistance to interference. The scars on my hands always remind me. (Yes, the newer crimped BNC connectors don't scar that way -- but they look similar enough to trigger the memory of pain and discomfort -- that wind was cold). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From aaron at wfi-inc.com Sat Oct 31 01:44:19 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:50 2005 Subject: eBay strikes again... Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=37938902 ...with more than a day to go! And... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=38897455 ...with a broken disk drive and still 6 days to go! I would say "sign me up" to officially endorse Haggle, but I was browsing the listings and it seems that everyone starts their auctions at very high prices (at least the antique section, I didn't check anything else)... Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." --> Scott Draves From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Oct 31 02:41:16 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: eBay strikes again... References: Message-ID: <363ACD2B.D052183E@bigfoot.com> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > I would say "sign me up" to officially endorse Haggle, but I was browsing > the listings and it seems that everyone starts their auctions at very high > prices (at least the antique section, I didn't check anything else)... Haggle at least allows a regular "Bid High" auction as well as a flate rate "Bid Fast" auction. The nice thing about the bif fast is that the seller posts a price (listed as starting bid) and the first person to bid that amount closes the auction, essentially the same as if you posted a machine for $10 and the first person to firmly offer you that was the buyer. It's nice for the buyer especially since theyknow what the price is, and no games chasing other bids throughout the auction period. I like Haggle's rates as well. Ebay can kiss my patootee. > > Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." > --> Scott Draves From dogas at leading.net Sat Oct 31 06:49:43 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: eBay strikes again... Message-ID: <01be04cc$ee8844e0$cfc962cf@devlaptop> Thats nothing... how about a TRS-80 Voxbox that just went for $300... - Mike: dogas@leading.net From: Aaron Christopher Finney >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=37938902 >And... > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=38897455 > >...with a broken disk drive and still 6 days to go! From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Oct 31 07:31:53 1998 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: bit addressing, alignment, bus errors, and VM (was Re: PDP-10 arch question) References: Message-ID: <363B1148.14F97257@idirect.com> >William Donzelli wrote: > > One other interesting aspect is that by convention, the OS assumed > > that all of the top half of virtual memory belonged to the OS. Another > > is that the hardware was the child of Seymore Cray. > Are you certain of that? Cray designed the CDC 160, and had a hand in the > CDC 6000s, but I do not think the STAR. Jerome Fine replies: After more than 25 years, I am not certain of anything. But if Cray had a hand in the CDC 6000s, and he was still around CDC at the time the STAR 100 was designed and built, I would certainly think that he was also involved in the STAR 100 as well. I thought I saw an article about the STAR 100 recently which described the circular nature of the physical rack which was required in order to reduce to length of the wires which interconnected the different parts of the system. Evidently, it was rather cold in the centre of the whole thing. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From sethm at loomcom.com Sat Oct 31 08:49:02 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: eBay strikes again... In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Oct 30, 98 11:44:19 pm Message-ID: <199810311449.GAA03554@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 473 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981031/d2a7e6d9/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Oct 31 10:10:23 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: eBay strikes again... Message-ID: <199810311610.AA18928@world.std.com> < "Again, the unit TURNS ON!! Incredible considering < the age of the thing. " Gee, the NS* Horizon that turned 20 years old last march must really be unusual in that I still use it and it's still reliable! Then again I have a battery portable TV I bought in '71 that still works too. I see little majik in all that. I expect it to work and if it didn't I'd fix it. What scares me more, is the bozo thinks it turns on and lights and fans mean it works. Allison From ai705 at osfn.org Sat Oct 31 10:31:08 1998 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: eBay strikes again... In-Reply-To: <199810311610.AA18928@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Oct 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > What scares me more, is the bozo thinks it turns on and lights and fans > mean it works. > > Allison So does my local Salvation Army. And they charge for it. Something like a Kaypro II = $65 or a Compaq Portable (286? version) = $100. And they write the price on it with nasty indelible magic marker which can be removed only with varying degrees of success (did I hear somebody say xylol?). Big block numerals and sometimes more than once. They also throw away original packaging and bust up sets of stuff, say computer-power supply-external disk drive, as separate sales. And why? They don't care. They actually landfill (or scrap) more material than they sell by a 4 or 5 to 1 margin. Ebay is hardly an aberration. It is all relative. Should they be introduced to the concept that old computers have value? They can add a copy of Haddock right next to the Kovels and Overstreets they have. As a disclaimer, I haven't bothered to set foot in the door in 9 months so things may be different... -- Stephen Dauphin From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Oct 31 12:23:05 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: eBay strikes again... Message-ID: <19981031182306.11929.qmail@hotmail.com> On this list 'doesn't work' means 'smashed into three thousand pieces' In most places, 'doesn't work' means 'it doesn't do what I want it to' Almost anything that goes wrong with an Osborne (besides physical damage) is fairly trivial to fix for people on this list anyway. > >< "Again, the unit TURNS ON!! Incredible considering >< the age of the thing. " > >Gee, the NS* Horizon that turned 20 years old last march must really be >unusual in that I still use it and it's still reliable! > >Then again I have a battery portable TV I bought in '71 that still works >too. I see little majik in all that. I expect it to work and if it >didn't I'd fix it. > > >What scares me more, is the bozo thinks it turns on and lights and fans >mean it works. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Oct 31 12:51:04 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) In-Reply-To: <199810311449.GAA03554@loomcom.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981031105104.0397b540@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:49 AM 10/31/98 -0800, Seth wrote: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=38897455 >> >> ...with a broken disk drive and still 6 days to go! > >Aaah, my favorite quote from the auction posting: > > "Again, the unit TURNS ON!! Incredible considering > the age of the thing. " > >I guess I should consider my PDP-11/04 a bloody miracle then ;) And I'm going out to the garage to bow in humble supplication to me PDP-8/i! -jim B^} --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Oct 31 13:06:25 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) References: <3.0.3.32.19981031105104.0397b540@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <363B5FB0.D5C4AB81@bigfoot.com> James Willing wrote: > At 06:49 AM 10/31/98 -0800, Seth wrote: > >> > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=38897455 > >> > >> ...with a broken disk drive and still 6 days to go! > > > >Aaah, my favorite quote from the auction posting: > > > > "Again, the unit TURNS ON!! Incredible considering > > the age of the thing. " > > > >I guess I should consider my PDP-11/04 a bloody miracle then ;) > > And I'm going out to the garage to bow in humble supplication to me PDP-8/i! Isn't it something that you try to sell the obscure in your local area to have people ask what you'd pay them to throw it away for you but newer items sell at reasonable amounts. Get on something like ePay and the weird and no longer desirable (by the average person) goes for weord amounts and newer machines rarely get a look (ie 286 and 386 machines). From pjoules at joules.enterprise-plc.com Sat Oct 31 01:59:56 1998 From: pjoules at joules.enterprise-plc.com (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: What is a PX4? Message-ID: I have been told by the software house who supply us at work that there might be some old PX4s and PX8s in their storeroom which no-one wants any more. Does anyone know what these are? I gather that htey may be some sort of intelligent terminal as the chap comcerned said they they used to be used on site and then plugged into a modem to upload the data to their main database. Regards Pete From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sat Oct 31 15:10:18 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: teledisk (was: 8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II... Message-ID: <199810312110.QAA26864@dgs.cs.unc.edu> On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: ] To: classiccmp@u.WASHINGTON.EDU ] Subject: 8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II stuff!) ] Message-ID: <981027110530.222003f4@trailing-edge.com> ] ] >... ] > I can serial port the machines togethet but, I have no idea how ] > to read off all the sectors of the 8 inches. ] ] This is a question that has been dealt with very thoroughly in the ] past. ] ] Sydex (http://www.sydex.com/) has some very excellent software ] available for dealing with "foreign" floppy formats, and can deal ] with many (but not all) 8" floppy formats. Instead of going into ] ... If you are referring to teledisk, it is worth noting that they no longer offer a single-user non-commercial license; they stopped offerring it as shareware in 1991, and is now solely a commercial product with a licensing fee of $150. The shareware version that can still be found out there is now "warez" - illegal, copyable only by pimply-faced HaKkErZ with bad breath and no morals. :-/ I exchanged e-mail with them recently about this, and though they were polite, they refused to consider licensing it for less than their stated price. Anybody know of any reasonable alternatives, for those of us that are hampered by rules against theft? I suppose I'll eventually write my own, but my schedule looks pretty well jammed clear into the next millenium. ] Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com ] Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 ] 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 ] Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Cheers, Bill. From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Oct 31 15:59:32 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) Message-ID: <19981031215932.15980.qmail@hotmail.com> It's not that weird. Everyone knows that 286 and 386 machines are crap ;) In fact, one reason is that noone gets attached to them, and also because Pentia aren't that much different from 386s. So, no nostalgia. And, I think that early PCs were a lot less useful than some other machines of the time (like Commodores and Apples) > >> At 06:49 AM 10/31/98 -0800, Seth wrote: >> >> >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=38897455 >> >> >> >> ...with a broken disk drive and still 6 days to go! >> > >> >Aaah, my favorite quote from the auction posting: >> > >> > "Again, the unit TURNS ON!! Incredible considering >> > the age of the thing. " >> > >> >I guess I should consider my PDP-11/04 a bloody miracle then ;) >> >> And I'm going out to the garage to bow in humble supplication to me PDP-8/i! > >Isn't it something that you try to sell the obscure in your local area to have >people ask what you'd pay them to throw it away for you but newer items sell at >reasonable amounts. Get on something like ePay and the weird and no longer >desirable (by the average person) goes for weord amounts and newer machines >rarely get a look (ie 286 and 386 machines). > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Oct 31 16:01:12 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: ATMs Message-ID: <19981031220112.9303.qmail@hotmail.com> Has anyone here had any experience with ATMs? What sort of specs might an ATM have? How does it connect to the bank computer? Thanks ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Oct 31 16:16:55 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) References: <19981031215932.15980.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <363B8C56.5E5AEB58@bigfoot.com> Max Eskin wrote: > It's not that weird. Everyone knows that 286 and 386 machines are > crap ;) In fact, one reason is that noone gets attached to them, and > also because Pentia aren't that much different from 386s. So, no > nostalgia. And, I think that early PCs were a lot less useful than > some other machines of the time (like Commodores and Apples) Ok Max, will check back with you when the medication wears off..... From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Oct 31 16:22:02 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: teledisk (was: 8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II... References: <199810312110.QAA26864@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <363B8D89.EF989CBE@bigfoot.com> Bill Yakowenko wrote: > If you are referring to teledisk, it is worth noting that they no > longer offer a single-user non-commercial license; they stopped > offerring it as shareware in 1991, and is now solely a commercial > product with a licensing fee of $150. The shareware version that > can still be found out there is now "warez" - illegal, copyable > only by pimply-faced HaKkErZ with bad breath and no morals. :-/ Hey, I don't have pimples > I exchanged e-mail with them recently about this, and though they > were polite, they refused to consider licensing it for less than > their stated price. Really nice since they got their start by everyone else paying their way for distribution, marketing and testing back in the BBS days. The makers of Telix communications are just as bad, if they're even still around, just as the makers of ProComm (DataStorm?) are to this day. > Anybody know of any reasonable alternatives, for those of us that > are hampered by rules against theft? I suppose I'll eventually > write my own, but my schedule looks pretty well jammed clear into > the next millenium. My guess is that you don't use Windows and that you don't want one of the older shareware Teledisks? From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 31 16:21:44 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: teledisk (was: 8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II... Message-ID: <981031172144.23e00219@trailing-edge.com> ] Sydex (http://www.sydex.com/) has some very excellent software ] available for dealing with "foreign" floppy formats, and can deal ] with many (but not all) 8" floppy formats. Instead of going into ] ... >If you are referring to teledisk, it is worth noting that they no >longer offer a single-user non-commercial license; they stopped >offerring it as shareware in 1991, and is now solely a commercial >product with a licensing fee of $150. The shareware version that >can still be found out there is now "warez" - illegal, copyable >only by pimply-faced HaKkErZ with bad breath and no morals. :-/ >I exchanged e-mail with them recently about this, and though they >were polite, they refused to consider licensing it for less than >their stated price. As I use Teledisk for commerce, I don't have any problems with the $150 fee. I agree, it is a shame that the shareware version can no longer be registered for a small fee, especially because large quantities of freely distributable software is out there in Teledisk-image format (for example, all the POS-related RX50's for DEC Pro's are archived at Uppsula in teledisk format.) >Anybody know of any reasonable alternatives, for those of us that >are hampered by rules against theft? Sydex does have a product which fills many of the same needs that Teledisk does, and this is CopyQM. It supports 3.5", 5.25", and 8" floppies and even has some features that Teledisk didn't have. I don't have as much experience with it as I do with Teledisk, but CopyQM does have the advantage that single-user licenses are available for only US$25. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Oct 31 17:04:27 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) In-Reply-To: <363B8C56.5E5AEB58@bigfoot.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at Oct 31, 1998 04:16:55 PM Message-ID: <199810312304.QAA19163@calico.litterbox.com> > Max Eskin wrote: > > > It's not that weird. Everyone knows that 286 and 386 machines are > > crap ;) In fact, one reason is that noone gets attached to them, and > > also because Pentia aren't that much different from 386s. So, no > > nostalgia. And, I think that early PCs were a lot less useful than > > some other machines of the time (like Commodores and Apples) The biggest problem these older machines had was microsoft operating systems. (okay, I'm a Unix/VMS bigot at heart, but DOS and win3.0/3.1 really WERE that bad.) Part of what makes a machine appealing is how well you get along with the OS. I've known DOS and win3.1 gurus, but I've never met anyone who really LIKED these operating systems the way the apple-heads liked prodos and gsos. Microsoft somehow managed to make these OSs without anything that endeared them to their users and programmers. As for 386s, there's the obvious linux plug waiting to happen, and I have to say I'm fairly attached to Calico, my linux box, which is just a plain old 486/100 VLB machine. It's served remarkably reliably over the years. Am I as attached to it as to the vaxen I used? No. Why? because Calico is a hodgepodge of parts I picked up from surplus stores combined with a dx4 I bought while I was at Intel. (They used to have a great staff discount program). It lacks the single unified personality of, say, a vaxstation 3100, where every single piece either came from Digital or was at least built to their specs so it *felt* like a Digital machine and *looked* like a digital machine. So how do I fit these two together? Um... er... Well, PCs never made friends with people because of the bland (and poor) way they interfaced with people, and because their bland (and frequently poor) hardware never had the unified stamp that gives a machine an identity. They were engineered, both hardware and software, to be generic computers. And I think the backlash from that can be seen as part of (but certainly not all of) the driving force behind the enormous number of I-Mac sales. Apple went to great lengths to make a computer that IS different. That DOES have some personality to it. It seems like this "personality" issue is becoming more and more important in mass produced things - witness the new Beetle, the Imac, and so on. Anyway, enough rambling for one message. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 31 12:19:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: eBay strikes again... In-Reply-To: <199810311449.GAA03554@loomcom.com> from "Seth J. Morabito" at Oct 31, 98 06:49:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1157 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981031/9316860d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 31 12:24:27 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: eBay strikes again... In-Reply-To: <199810311610.AA18928@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 31, 98 11:10:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 797 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981031/342f92d0/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Oct 31 17:07:25 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: What is a PX4? References: Message-ID: <363B982B.32A2C5A0@bigfoot.com> Pete Joules wrote: > I have been told by the software house who supply us at work that there > might be some old PX4s and PX8s in their storeroom which no-one wants any > more. Does anyone know what these are? > > I gather that htey may be some sort of intelligent terminal as the chap > comcerned said they they used to be used on site and then plugged into a > modem to upload the data to their main database. If they are made by Epson then they are early 8 line LCD screen laptop machines running CP/M, at least the PX8 is, never heard of a PX4 personally. They had a neat little thermal printer option too that anyone with the mini din pinouts and some cable making could adapt to a nice printer for a serial port on another machine, such as a PC (right Max?) but they'd have to use thermal fax roll paper in it. Help at all? From jruschme at exit109.com Sat Oct 31 17:10:24 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) In-Reply-To: <19981031215932.15980.qmail@hotmail.com> from Max Eskin at "Oct 31, 98 01:59:32 pm" Message-ID: <199810312310.SAA07879@crobin.home.org> > > > It's not that weird. Everyone knows that 286 and 386 machines are > crap ;) In fact, one reason is that noone gets attached to them, and > also because Pentia aren't that much different from 386s. So, no > nostalgia. And, I think that early PCs were a lot less useful than > some other machines of the time (like Commodores and Apples) I'm not sure I'd agree with the "crap" part, but I do think that there are a few reasons why there is not more excitement on the 286 and 386 systems. To begin with, the 8088 and 286 systems (and to a lesser degree 386 systems) are too new to have a "nostalgia" factor associated with them. That is to say, because any software which ran on them can still be run on a Pentium, there is little reason for someone to pick one up just to run some beloved old game, as is the case with some buyers of 8-bit Ataris, Apples, and Commodores. Secondly, the fact is, 286 and 386 systems are just too ubiquitous. Also, the clone factor means that many of them are nondescript and contain nondescript parts. This mostly rules out the "rarity" factor so common on EBay. This will continue until such time as older PCs have the status of vintage Hot Rods and an Ebay description can say such things as: "This is a fine example of a typical 80286-based PC, equipped with a classic MFM 40mb drive and a genuine Hercules monochrome graphics card. It is a wonderful specimen of a typical office PC, circa 1987." Lastly, I'm sad to say it but 286 and 386 PCs are not considered "useful" by the mass market definition of "useful". Now I will be the first to admit that a 286 running WP 5.1 can process words just as well (and probably faster) than a Pentium 133 running Word97 and that a 386 with plenty of memory makes a fine Linux or FreeBSD box. But we are talking about Ebay buyers here the sad truth is that if they don't see a system as being "collectable" or "useful", then they will probably just see it as "useLESS" (sort of like corporate America). To be brutally honest, given the Ebay pricing on 486 and even early Pentium MBs and CPUs, my first inclination when looking at a 386 is to assess its usefulness as a case and power supply donor. Why not, when I can upgrade a 386/33 to a 486/33 for under $20? <<>> From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Oct 31 17:14:30 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: What is a PX4? Message-ID: <199810312314.AA16667@world.std.com> < I have been told by the software house who supply us at work that there < might be some old PX4s and PX8s in their storeroom which no-one wants an < more. Does anyone know what these are? I assume the are Epson. The PX8 is a portable z80 based CP/M laptop. If memory is correct the PX$ was an earlier predecessor of same. I have a PX8 and it's a nice machine. Allison From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Oct 31 17:14:43 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) References: <199810312304.QAA19163@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <363B99E2.5302D935@bigfoot.com> Jim Strickland wrote: > - witness the new Beetle, the Imac, and so on. A reworked ugly Golf? I have an ATV with more appeal than that ugly death box. It did however make the price of any existing real Beetles go through the roof. People liked the older ones but they both quit being made and quit being popular (for the most part) so the old bugs are just parked here and there and now people are scooping them up by the dozens, at $4500 for a running 1965 stock Beetle. Whoda thunk it? > Anyway, enough rambling for one message. :) Same here, back on topic for me. From dogas at leading.net Sat Oct 31 18:21:19 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) Message-ID: <01be052d$8c982140$bdc962cf@devlaptop> Hi. It must be the (near) full moon... the day... or.... *howlllll* *grrr* ;) -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland >The biggest problem these older machines had was microsoft operating systems. >(okay, I'm a Unix/VMS bigot at heart, but DOS and win3.0/3.1 really WERE that >bad.) I guess that before telling you how full of shit ( in a friendly way, of course ) you are I should ask what your refering to here... >>...but I've never met anyone who really LIKED these operating systems the way the apple-heads liked prodos and gsos. *statement now invalid* Alas, (new) Apple-heads are turned-on by marketing ala translucent/green repackaging. Dont get me wrong. the Woz is a god and Newton OS rocks, IIx was cool... The only thing that makes me seek non-ms oses is the programming ease facilitated by microsoft in app development. Need some challenges somewhere.... but I guess this is true for any programmer and their preferred platform... Mike: dogas@leading.net . From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Oct 31 18:45:36 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) In-Reply-To: <01be052d$8c982140$bdc962cf@devlaptop> from "Mike" at Oct 31, 1998 07:21:19 PM Message-ID: <199811010045.RAA19458@calico.litterbox.com> > From: Jim Strickland > >The biggest problem these older machines had was microsoft operating > systems. *snip* > I guess that before telling you how full of shit ( in a friendly way, of > course ) you are I should ask what your refering to here... From gene at ehrich.com Sat Oct 31 18:58:46 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: ATMs In-Reply-To: <19981031220112.9303.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199811010103.RAA26293@mxu4.u.washington.edu> At 02:01 PM 10/31/98 -0800, you wrote: > >Has anyone here had any experience with ATMs? >What sort of specs might an ATM have? How does it connect to the >bank computer? I wrote the code for the first on-line ATM in the United States. This was in 1973. I worked for IBM at the time. It was in Califon NJ at Hunterton County Trust Company a monster of an 18 million dollar asset bank. There is a very high degree of sophistication and algorithms to make sure that only the authorized person gets the money and that the information is properly recorded at the bank. In the original days the information was recorded on the magnetic stripe on the card (on the off-line machines). At the time I was involved they used a fairly sophisticated phone line technology but I'm sure it is even more so at this time. The IBM BiSync ATM was remote to an IBM System 7 where the authorization and logging was done. The disk pack (looked like Star Trex Enterprise) was carried over to an IBM System 3 where the transactions were posted to accounts and new info put on pack to bring back to the machine. Up to this time all ATM's were off-line and hot card postings had to be entered in each and every machine. Keeping track of withdraws was done on the mag stripe and subject to fraud. At the time hot cards were posted transactions were picked up (often from paper tape). I remember one time on a competitors machine over $10,000 of transactions were posted on a single line of a jammed adding machine tape. gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Oct 31 19:20:31 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: ATMs. Message-ID: <199811010120.SAA19564@calico.litterbox.com> Okay, curiosity time. What happens to obselete ATMs? Anyone here collect them? -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From yowza at yowza.com Sat Oct 31 19:25:16 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: IMLAC PDS-1 In-Reply-To: <199811010103.RAA26293@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Has anybody ever heard of an early graphics machine called the IMLAC PDS-1 (circa 1970)? It's referenced in this early RFC by Cerf and Postel: http://andrew2.andrew.cmu.edu/rfc/rfc174.html I'm interested in any pointers to detailed info about the machine, or pointers to people that may have used one. I'm also looking for an online version of RFC 190, which I can't seem to find. Thanks, Doug From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Oct 31 19:32:54 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) Message-ID: <199811010132.AA14350@world.std.com> < the modern uSoft OSs - win95/98 and NT4. I still get GPFs but nowhere n < the frequency I got them with the dos-based windows. No microsoft OS ha Last reboot of this dos6.22/win3.1 system was three weeks ago when I shut it down to shuffle the drives and replace a dead fan. It's quite stable. Then again I tend to trash apps that don't behave! I've also tamed a few unruly ones with carefull edits or the creation of a proper PIF file. Considering the number of DOS apps I run under windows Setting things up right is a necessity. To me GPFs are applications that under VMS would likely cause an exception exit dump. GPFs are a poor error handling mech for programs trying to do what should or are illegal things. It's easy to blame a weak OS for crappy applications. Dos has few to no protections and ragging on it is unfair. < compared to the stability (weeks and months without rebooting) of Linux, < in turn doesn't approach the bulletproof reliability you expect from VMS The Slakware 3.0 Linux I have on a 386dx/33 that is a good machine but with only 8meg of ram Linux is not that stable. Forget getting xwindows to behave well in 8meg. < I freely admit I learned most of my computer science under Vax-VMS so I < strong bias towards it, but I've also run moderately large scale vaxclus I'm biased as well, I run 7 vaxen here, two of which are LAVC members. I also run RT-11, RSTS-11 and a lot of CP/M systems. < and at least the versions we used... 5.5a, if memory serves, were remark < reliable. To the point where we once had a cluster server loose its dis Solid! I run both 5.4-4 and 5.5 and uptimes are limited by power on times, though in the past I've seen months to years. < I'm not a programmer. I'm a sysadmin/netadmin type. Ease of programmin < secondary to me compared to reliability. A system that crashes frequent < the bane of my profession's existance, because it means instead of spend < time on the entire environment and routine maintenance you spend more ti < firefighting mode. That is why VMS, unix and their kin are used on the enterprize scale. Dos/win was used that way but it was never conceived as a multiuser OS nor as a networking server platform. Using it that way maybe a hackers dream but a sysadmin nightmare. < We were discussing why people don't get attached to PCs as much, and any < machine that bombs frequently or in general causes headaches seems to me < it's not going to be high on people's lists. A machine that is poorly understood and marketed by processor speed hype that shows zippy games. I still don't understand why a kid needs a 300MHz PII to run simcity other than hype. To me it's simpler, one 486dx or PII is the same as another, ther eis nothing to distinguish them. Even the PS2 series was at least different on the bus level. It's a matter of maturity of the system and all of the software. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 31 19:50:03 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: ATMs. Message-ID: <981031205003.23e00237@trailing-edge.com> >Okay, curiosity time. What happens to obselete ATMs? >Anyone here collect them? Due to security concerns - after all, you don't want anybody getting their hands on those little printing presses inside that make $20's - all ATM's are destroyed upon decomissioning :-). More seriously, the things are probably melted down for scrap. The ATM's that I've seen being serviced probably weigh as much as a small car. Many recent ATM's have PC-clone hardware in their "smarts". I've seen several different ones in the process of "rebooting" and displaying the OS/2 startup screen. I've seen out-of-commision ATM's show the "General failure reading drive C:" message, as well. Tim "Who is this General Failure, and why is he reading my drive C?" Shoppa From mew_jac at swbell.net Sat Oct 31 20:16:23 1998 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt References: <981031172144.23e00219@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <363BC477.7B9D@swbell.net> Ok, So ">>>BOOT DM" booted the 11/44 from the RK07. Thank you Toni. But I'd like to know what the rest of the commands do? This is the dump from HELP: (Console V3.40C) (Program) (Console) Halted at 165714 >>>he Commands : ADDRESS BOOT BREAK CONTINUE DEPOSIT EXAMINE FILL HALT HELP INITIALIZE MICROSTEP NEXT START TEST Arguments : 0-7 - * + @ SWR PC PSW KSP SSP USP Qualifiers : REPEAT /IR /NODIAGNOSTIC /SCOPE /EXTENSIVE /N: /CB /TB Addressing : /P /G /M /VI /VD /UI /UD /KI /KD /SI /SD >>> Thanks, Mitch Wright From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Oct 30 20:17:07 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: eBay strikes again... References: Message-ID: <363A7322.DB1DFAC9@bigfoot.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Even some physical damage can be repaired. Cracked circuit boards can be > patched together. Cases can be repaired by bolting metal plates inside > (not neat, but stronger than the original). JB Weld the plate in, whether it's plastic or metal. Works great, holds tight, totally invisible and no drilling. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 31 20:23:15 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: teledisk (was: 8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II... In-Reply-To: <199810312110.QAA26864@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Oct 1998, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > I exchanged e-mail with them recently about this, and though they > were polite, they refused to consider licensing it for less than > their stated price. > > Anybody know of any reasonable alternatives, for those of us that > are hampered by rules against theft? I suppose I'll eventually > write my own, but my schedule looks pretty well jammed clear into > the next millenium. If you haven't tried this yet, and if applicable, ask them if they'd entertain the thought of selling a cheaper license with no support. There's another program out there that I hear has a few more formats than Teledisk has. I thinks its called Xenocopy. I believe its still available. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Oct 30 20:25:02 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: ATMs. References: <981031205003.23e00237@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <363A74FD.F8D668A7@bigfoot.com> CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > More seriously, the things are probably melted down for scrap. The > ATM's that I've seen being serviced probably weigh as much as a > small car. They average around 600 lbs and the paper supplies and cash on hand adds to that. Many are bolted down which gives the appearance of weight. > Many recent ATM's have PC-clone hardware in their "smarts". I've > seen several different ones in the process of "rebooting" and > displaying the OS/2 startup screen. I've seen out-of-commision > ATM's show the "General failure reading drive C:" message, as > well. Many others use embedded DOS such as Caldera DR-DOS rather than chance the OS/2 croaking on the disk. The hard disk in many is used to hold transaction info until the daily (or whatever it's set for) transfer over the wire. They aren't that complicated but there is more than just a computer system in them. There's a reader, printer, money handler, deposit container and video survellance system all in that one cabinet on top of all the exterior being relatively theft proof. > Tim "Who is this General Failure, and why is he reading my drive C?" Shoppa Good question, he sure is a pain in the rump. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Oct 30 20:37:40 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: ATMs References: <199811010103.RAA26293@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <363A77F3.65BBBA18@bigfoot.com> Gene Ehrich wrote: > I wrote the code for the first on-line ATM in the United States. This was > in 1973. I worked for IBM at the time. > > It was in Califon NJ at Hunterton County Trust Company a monster of an 18 > million dollar asset bank. And at that time all ATM's were at the exterior of the banks, bolted into a reinforced wall opening and connected direct to the banks mainframe, except for the branch banks that had to have the disk pack taken to the main division if the branch did not have the correct reader or were manually transferred over phone lines but were still part of the building. I don't remember the free standing machines until around 1980 or 82. They were very accurate as you say but could be depended upon to misread a card and therefore disallow a transaction, or go offline and not do any transactions at all. Much of that was bad installation leaving it in a place that wasn't temperature or humidity stable. The part you state of the paper record being jammed and illegible was a real and nearly fatal problem then. My girlfriend at the time was a data processor for Standard Federal Bank in Chicago and it was a continuous fight to get convenience transactions to be very popular with the bank workers as well as bank customers. Many did not trust them, more so than today (and they had no bogus ATM's in the mall at that point yet). I still have a respect for the technology but don't trust my personal livelyhood and security to the machines. I'll take my chances with cash still. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Oct 30 20:40:46 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: ATMs. References: <199811010120.SAA19564@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <363A78AD.924AAFEE@bigfoot.com> Jim Strickland wrote: > Okay, curiosity time. What happens to obselete ATMs? Anyone here collect them? I've never seen one sold myself but have seen good parts pulled that fit existing ones and resold through bonded repair companies and scrap bins with the rest in them, after being cut into smaller parts with a torch. Ever seen an armored car on a car lot, or a military cannon? Same difference I guess. From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Oct 31 20:44:15 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: eBay strikes again... Message-ID: <19981101024415.17076.qmail@hotmail.com> Most things under ten years old can't be repaired because they have weird custom chips. I guess the corporations did an excellent job convincing people that a machine should die, and be replaced, impossible to repair. 90V batteries? How big are they? How big is the radio? >Yes, _you'd_ fix it. I'd fix it, and I guess other people here would do >the same. But the general public seem to think that anything over 3 years >old can't be repaired.. > >One of the radios I use here from time to time is a 1950's Vidor portable >radio with the FM band. It's valved. I got it second hand and it needed >very little work to get it going again - mostly cleaning contacts and >valveholders. I think all the valves are original as well. I've made a >little mains PSU for it as 90V batteries are difficult to find nowadays. > >And I don't consider a set of that age that still works to be unusual at all. > >-tony > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Oct 30 20:48:19 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: What is a PX4? References: Message-ID: <363A7A72.29C56BB4@bigfoot.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I have been told by the software house who supply us at work that there > > might be some old PX4s and PX8s in their storeroom which no-one wants any > > more. Does anyone know what these are? > > A PX4 is either an output triode (:-)) haven't thought of that :-) > or more likely, an Epson laptop > that runs CP/M. It used EPROMs as pseudo disk drives (read-only of > course). A PX8 is similar, except that it has an 80 column display and a > built-in microcassette drive. > > Not bad little machines, actually. The PX8 (don't know about the PX4) could use an external 3.5" floppy drive option as well as the ROM disk drives. The programs on microcassette were near as bad as a Vic 20 on loading BASIC programs too. 80 columns yes, 24/25 lines no. It (PX8) had a mere 8 lines, being a pain to run that flight sim in BASIC on. I beleive that most of the bundled software existed on ROMs as well. Damark started out pretty much in the surplus computer sales on the PX8's and a few others around 85/86.. I think I still have a null modem cable I made up way back when to attach to the serial port of the PX8 mini-din (printer connection essentially) to go to my then hi-tech Sanyo pain-in-the-butt MBC-555-2. I think I should have kept the PX8 and sold the Sanyo now that I reflect on it. ;-o From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Oct 31 21:03:35 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) Message-ID: <19981101030348.18533.qmail@hotmail.com> I guess experiences vary wildly in terms of stability. I've never had a problem with DOS or Windows 3.x in terms of stability. Some crashes, but usually when running junky programs. Win95 I might trust in terms of not crashing, but the filesystem is so unreliable, I stay away from it. Linux, I'm running on this Compaq 386sx/20 with 6MB RAM, and it's never crashed. Slackware. I dunno. I seem to be lucky with not having things fail. I've plugged in connectors backwards many a time, and have never fried anything. The SMPSU cut out. But then, how many people would say DOS is unstable? > >Last reboot of this dos6.22/win3.1 system was three weeks ago when I shut >it down to shuffle the drives and replace a dead fan. It's quite stable. >Then again I tend to trash apps that don't behave! I've also tamed a >few unruly ones with carefull edits or the creation of a proper PIF >file. Considering the number of DOS apps I run under windows Setting >things up right is a necessity. > >To me GPFs are applications that under VMS would likely cause an >exception exit dump. GPFs are a poor error handling mech for programs >trying to do what should or are illegal things. It's easy to blame a >weak OS for crappy applications. Dos has few to no protections and >ragging on it is unfair. > >< compared to the stability (weeks and months without rebooting) of Linux, >< in turn doesn't approach the bulletproof reliability you expect from VMS > >The Slakware 3.0 Linux I have on a 386dx/33 that is a good machine but >with only 8meg of ram Linux is not that stable. Forget getting xwindows >to behave well in 8meg. > >< I freely admit I learned most of my computer science under Vax-VMS so I >< strong bias towards it, but I've also run moderately large scale vaxclus > >I'm biased as well, I run 7 vaxen here, two of which are LAVC members. >I also run RT-11, RSTS-11 and a lot of CP/M systems. > >< and at least the versions we used... 5.5a, if memory serves, were remark >< reliable. To the point where we once had a cluster server loose its dis > >Solid! I run both 5.4-4 and 5.5 and uptimes are limited by power on >times, though in the past I've seen months to years. > >< I'm not a programmer. I'm a sysadmin/netadmin type. Ease of programmin >< secondary to me compared to reliability. A system that crashes frequent >< the bane of my profession's existance, because it means instead of spend >< time on the entire environment and routine maintenance you spend more ti >< firefighting mode. > >That is why VMS, unix and their kin are used on the enterprize scale. >Dos/win was used that way but it was never conceived as a multiuser OS >nor as a networking server platform. Using it that way maybe a hackers >dream but a sysadmin nightmare. > >< We were discussing why people don't get attached to PCs as much, and any >< machine that bombs frequently or in general causes headaches seems to me >< it's not going to be high on people's lists. > >A machine that is poorly understood and marketed by processor speed >hype that shows zippy games. I still don't understand why a kid needs >a 300MHz PII to run simcity other than hype. To me it's simpler, one >486dx or PII is the same as another, ther eis nothing to distinguish >them. Even the PS2 series was at least different on the bus level. > >It's a matter of maturity of the system and all of the software. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Oct 30 21:04:17 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: eBay strikes again... References: <19981101024415.17076.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <363A7E30.302C26B3@bigfoot.com> Max Eskin wrote: > Most things under ten years old can't be repaired because they have > weird custom chips. I guess the corporations did an excellent job > convincing people that a machine should die, and be replaced, > impossible to repair. Not impossible if you wish to buy a new PC board for many times the value of the item, even in TV and VCR's. > 90V batteries? How big are they? How big is the radio? Not big at all considering what an equivelant amount of C or D cells would be piled together. If I remeber correctly they were about 1.5" thick by about 3 inches wide and around 6 or 7 inches long. I have a Zenith AM portable radio made of a bakelite case that is a "valved" (vac tubes) radio that's only about 2/3 the size of the smaller 13" color TV's put out now, and it was made to run on a 90v brick but hasn't seen one since I pulled the leaking one out over 20 yrs ago. It was my parent's kitchen radio when I was young, went then the basement shop but no one knew the battery was still in it. By the time I salvaged it for my first apartment, the battery had easten up only the contacts which were easily remade from brass sheeting. It works like a charm and I haven't put a tube in it since the audio amp tube back in around 1985. I turn it on roughly once a week and run it for 4-5 hrs that day as it picks up stuff that no semiconductor radio ever could, even with a long wire dipole antenna. > > >Yes, _you'd_ fix it. I'd fix it, and I guess other people here would do > >the same. But the general public seem to think that anything over 3 > years > >old can't be repaired.. > > > >One of the radios I use here from time to time is a 1950's Vidor > portable > >radio with the FM band. It's valved. I got it second hand and it needed > >very little work to get it going again - mostly cleaning contacts and > >valveholders. I think all the valves are original as well. I've made a > >little mains PSU for it as 90V batteries are difficult to find > nowadays. > > > >And I don't consider a set of that age that still works to be unusual > at all. > > > >-tony > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From hhacker at gte.net Sat Oct 31 21:10:36 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <02f001be0545$32f48300$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> One expects that the operating system executing on the 11/44 will be RSTS or RX/11 or some other operating system. Hence, the commands (and isn't this obvious) acceptable at the keyboard are relative to the operating system. So, which OS is it that is running on your machine? This information is important to me, since I 1) have an 11/44 being shipped to me in the next month, 2) have no idea of the OS's that such a computer can support (though my 11/34a and 11/45 have RSTS/E and BSD 2.9), and 3) expect, as you, to operate the thing upon arrival. BTW - mine was used for timesharing applications at a university, so I expect yours is a fairly large machine. Please, tell me more about your 11/44, such as features of the CPU, the memory size, and peripheral devices available, and the overall dimensions of the computer. Mine is said to be some 30 feet long, so if yours is similar, how do you find the space to put all the parts together. I plan to put mine in the living room of my home, and my wife, as you might imagine, has some reservations on the matter! William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Mitch Wright To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, October 31, 1998 6:11 PM Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt >Ok, So ">>>BOOT DM" booted the 11/44 from the RK07. Thank you Toni. But >I'd like to know what the rest of the commands do? This is the dump from >HELP: > > (Console V3.40C) > >(Program) > >(Console) > Halted at 165714 > >>>>he > > Commands : > ADDRESS > BOOT > BREAK > CONTINUE > DEPOSIT > EXAMINE > FILL > HALT > HELP > INITIALIZE > MICROSTEP > NEXT > START > TEST > > Arguments : > 0-7 > - > * > + > @ > SWR > PC > PSW > KSP > SSP > USP > > Qualifiers : > REPEAT > /IR > /NODIAGNOSTIC > /SCOPE > /EXTENSIVE > /N: > /CB > /TB > > Addressing : > /P > /G > /M > /VI > /VD > /UI > /UD > /KI > /KD > /SI > /SD > >>>> > > > Thanks, Mitch Wright From gram at cnct.com Sat Oct 31 21:36:30 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) References: <199811010132.AA14350@world.std.com> Message-ID: <363BD73E.F821807D@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > To me GPFs are applications that under VMS would likely cause an > exception exit dump. GPFs are a poor error handling mech for programs > trying to do what should or are illegal things. It's easy to blame a > weak OS for crappy applications. Dos has few to no protections and > ragging on it is unfair. DOS has few to no protections and ragging on it is very fair. Since Windows has even less. I can deal with a program dumping. But when the OS lets that program take a dozen others with it, something is seriously broken. And it's usually not the hardware. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 31 21:46:03 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: A record? Message-ID: I'd like to put forward a documented record of hauling a PDP 11/45 and TU-10 tape drive and separate racks up two flights of stairs into a third floor apartment between three people. I'm sure someone will challenge this record and put it to shame, but I was impressed with the feat. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From gram at cnct.com Sat Oct 31 21:54:56 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: ATMs. References: <199811010120.SAA19564@calico.litterbox.com> <363A78AD.924AAFEE@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <363BDB90.313FA302@cnct.com> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Jim Strickland wrote: > > > Okay, curiosity time. What happens to obselete ATMs? Anyone here collect them? > > I've never seen one sold myself but have seen good parts pulled that fit existing > ones and resold through bonded repair companies and scrap bins with the rest in > them, after being cut into smaller parts with a torch. Ever seen an armored car on a > car lot, or a military cannon? Same difference I guess. I used to see the occasional former Brinks van in lots back home in Los Angeles, haven't seen a one in the 2/3 decade I've been here in New Jersey. And I want one for post-Y2K transportation. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From mew_jac at swbell.net Sat Oct 31 22:05:31 1998 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt References: <02f001be0545$32f48300$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: <363BDE0B.2D4D@swbell.net> Buck Savage wrote: > > One expects that the operating system executing on the 11/44 will be > RSTS or RX/11 or some other operating system. Hence, the commands > (and isn't this obvious) acceptable at the keyboard are relative to the > operating system. So, which OS is it that is running on your machine? Its got RSTS/E on tape and platter. Ver 7.x to ver 9.x. My memory of the the PDP-11 boot prompt was different from this one. The TS11 tape drive is broke and I think one of the RK07s need alignment. I can get RSTS to boot up past the init stage but I think it is expecting the second drive. I don't know much about RSTS so I'm sort of shooting in the dark. I expect to put BSD on it and maybe RT-11 if I get the tape and drive working. You got more money than I if you can pay to have one of these shipped anywhere. It was a timeshare system at a school also. Four racks, one fullsize for the TS11 tapedrive, two halfsize for the heavy RK07s, and one halfsize for the CPU. The CPU has two 16 port terminal controllers and the RK07 controller. My wife wants her parking space back in the garage. I can not imagine anyone turning one of these things on in their living room, you'll dim the lights and go deaf. I was looking for somrthing more along the line of an 11/34 but you gott'ya take what comes your way. I'm mostly looking for documenation now, which might take some time to track down. --Mitch > > This information is important to me, since I 1) have an 11/44 being > shipped to me in the next month, 2) have no idea of the OS's that > such a computer can support (though my 11/34a and 11/45 have RSTS/E > and BSD 2.9), and 3) expect, as you, to operate the thing upon arrival. > > BTW - mine was used for timesharing applications at a university, so > I expect yours is a fairly large machine. Please, tell me more about your > 11/44, such as features of the CPU, the memory size, and peripheral > devices available, and the overall dimensions of the computer. Mine is > said to be some 30 feet long, so if yours is similar, how do you find the > space to put all the parts together. I plan to put mine in the living room > of my home, and my wife, as you might imagine, has some reservations > on the matter! > > William R. Buckley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mitch Wright > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Saturday, October 31, 1998 6:11 PM > Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt > > >Ok, So ">>>BOOT DM" booted the 11/44 from the RK07. Thank you Toni. But > >I'd like to know what the rest of the commands do? This is the dump from > >HELP: > > > From yowza at yowza.com Sat Oct 31 22:02:44 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've got an old CRT that is decaying along the glass edges. I've seen foam turn to dust, rubber turn to goo, batteries turn to acid, but I hadn't expected CRT glass to revert to sand. Sam tells me that he's seen something similar on his Soroc terminal. What process is causing this? Isn't glass basically SiO2? I assume it's crystalizing rather than oxidizing. Anything I can do to prevent it from occurring on other tubes? Any interesting risks associated with firing an electron gun at this crystalized stuff with no remaining phosphor? -- Doug From mew_jac at swbell.net Sat Oct 31 22:51:09 1998 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt References: Message-ID: <363BE8BD.63C0@swbell.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > One expects that the operating system executing on the 11/44 will be > > RSTS or RX/11 or some other operating system. Hence, the commands > > (and isn't this obvious) acceptable at the keyboard are relative to the > > operating system. So, which OS is it that is running on your machine? > > The 11/44 has a rather nice monitor built in to the CPU system. It runs > on an 8085 processor, and it lets you type commands on an standard ascii > terminal to edit the PDP11's memory, start/halt programs, etc. Even look > at the CPU microprogram counter. If you saw this CPU card in a junk pile and didn't know it was a UNIBUS card you'd mistake it for some kind of 8085 controller board with 74181s on it. Sort of sick, a PDP-11/44 slaved to a 8085. --Mitch > > It's a replacement for the old lights-and-switches panel. The commands > are totally independant of any OS you might be running - in fact you can > use the 'frontpanel' commands on a machine with no mass storage at all. > > -tony From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Oct 31 22:43:16 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) Message-ID: <4d97e391.363be6e4@aol.com> win3.1 has been pretty stable for me. win95 still seems too fragile in my opinion. everytime i have to reboot without shutting down, i pray it comes back up ok. i also cannot understand how a dos session can totally hang win95... i run OS/2 at work and i've never had a crash. sometimes the machine will hang due to network problems. so far, i've had the machine continously on for two weeks and still going. nothing from microsoft could do that! I've migrated to version 4 now which is better at getting around a hung application. david In a message dated 10/31/98 10:04:45 PM US Eastern Standard Time, maxeskin@hotmail.com writes: > I guess experiences vary wildly in terms of stability. I've never > had a problem with DOS or Windows 3.x in terms of stability. Some > crashes, but usually when running junky programs. Win95 I might trust > in terms of not crashing, but the filesystem is so unreliable, I stay > away from it. Linux, I'm running on this Compaq 386sx/20 with 6MB RAM, > and it's never crashed. Slackware. I dunno. I seem to be lucky with > not having things fail. I've plugged in connectors backwards many a > time, and have never fried anything. The SMPSU cut out. But then, how > many people would say DOS is unstable? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 31 22:47:13 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: XenoCopy-PC (Was: teledisk (was: 8 in on PC's (was: TRS-80 II... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > There's another program out there that I hear has a few more formats than > Teledisk has. I thinks its called Xenocopy. I believe its still > available. I usually feel strongly about the ethics of advertising on a mailing list, but since you DID bring it up :-) XenoCopy-PC IS still available, although current sales have declined a bit since the peak :-( Currently at 400 formats, out of an estimated 2500 mutually incompatible disk formats. The majority of the formats are various CP/M formats, plus some variant MS-DOS formats, some "MS stand-alone Basic", some P-system, etc. Unfortunately, (going back to the beginning of this thread), I do NOT handle TRS-80 Model II TRS-DOS, although I handle some of the CP/Ms that were available for it, such as Pickles and Trout. $79.95 +S/H + Sales tax if in Calif. If you have a legitimate copy of a XenoSoft version, and are an active participant of this list, send the original disk and I'll re-record it with a more current version for free. If you have a COMPLETE copy from a certain disreputable publisher, $20 to upgrade to a legal copy. The "raw sector content / ignore the file system mode" remains undocumented and unsupported. Abandon all hope ye who use ALT or CTRL while pressing the F7 in the select files screen. We will deny all knowledge. BTW, the Epson Geneva PX-8 diskettes that I've seen were 40 track 3.5" (at 67 TPI). Readable using a 720K (135 TPI) drive (plus XenoCopy-PC or equivalent software :-), but not entirely reliable to write to. Other colleagues and participants in the specialty: MicroSolutions seems to have abandoned Uniform. Has anybody heard from Mark Graybill? of Intersecting Concepts/Media Master? Mike Gingel (Hypersoft) had a format conversion program that ran under Model I and III TRS-DOS and derivatives. Anyone heard from him lately? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From aaron at wfi-inc.com Sat Oct 31 23:05:40 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:51 2005 Subject: ATMs In-Reply-To: <19981031220112.9303.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > > Has anyone here had any experience with ATMs? > What sort of specs might an ATM have? How does it connect to the > bank computer? > Thanks > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > Uh, thinking of a little midnight "project"? Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." --> Scott Draves From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 31 23:50:24 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:52 2005 Subject: A record? In-Reply-To: <01be0556$680d9700$f17d38cb@help-desk> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > >I'd like to put forward a documented record of hauling a PDP 11/45 and > >TU-10 tape drive and separate racks up two flights of stairs into a third > >floor apartment between three people. > > I'd have to concede that as being an act of considerable fortitude. > > I thought I did well moving a Vax 8530/6310 cluster, complete with > 2 HSC50's, TA78/TU78 and about 15 RA8x and some RA7x drives from > a warehouse to my parents house, then getting it up a narrow gap into a > vacant granny flat. Over gravel. > But we did have a forklift load it on the vehicle for us. We had to off-load the populated racks from a pickup truck. This was in addition to the three racks we off-loaded on the first stop (one with 2 RK05f's, one with a paper tape reader/punch and the other with a 4" reel to reel tape drive). > The TA78/TU78 was the hardest, and the heaviest.. It took six of us to > move it all. (Called in a few favours, and a mate with a ute, uh, > pickup in us-speak) This doesn't include the several large station > wagon loads of 1/2" r-r tape and the docs for VAX-VMS 5.5. For those > not acquainted with VMS, the manuals are loose leaf A4 Binders, and > there are close to 40 of them. It's normally shipped on a pallet, and > referred to by users as the "great grey wall" after the colour of the > ring binders. (Some earlier versions were other colours, orange I > think, but they weren't quite as big either.) This is pretty impressive in its own right! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Oct 31 22:48:22 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:54 2005 Subject: Week end acquisitions In-Reply-To: <001501be059e$395e3700$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: <000201be0552$daaed2a0$5eafadce@5x86jk> Boy I missed that one, was out of town most of the week until Friday. Let me know next time. Thanks John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Francois > Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 7:48 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Week end acquisitions > > > Hi all, > Pretty good finds at the Minnesota Hamfest yesterday. > 2 Gridpads Complete (only one set of manual) Anybody has software > for those? > The Voice, Odyssey 2 Spech and sound effects module > Others that are not 10 years old but I'll brag about them anyway: > 75 MHz pentium laptop ($20 working) > Epson ActionLaser 1500 ($25 working) > set of SCM ethernet cards ($2 each Unknown condition) > > Tere was a few other Grid computers, laptops of all sorts > (zenith, toshiba, > ps/2 70 ...), and a lot more but my budget was very limited this time so I > pcked up the one I wanted the most. > Francois > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Visit the desperately in need of update > Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ > > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Oct 31 16:48:26 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:55 2005 Subject: FA: Apple Lisa and Apple IIC LCD Display References: <6d296978.363ce1ea@aol.com> Message-ID: <363B93B9.2231901B@bigfoot.com> While this is true for most, you know as well as I do that someone would have jumped out and complained about all the "for sale" activity on the list. Happens 9 times out of 10. I usually put the older collectables here first and then go to ebay and haggle next. Haven't had much in the 10+ age group recently as I have a trailer full of various PS/2 units to get out of here first. Anyone looking for a color display for a PCjr before it goes on ebay? I've posted it before for the $35 I bought it for but either everyone has one, no one needs one, or they think it's $34 too much for them SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > at the risk of being a smartass, id think that some of the people here > would've appreciated an offer on this list first rather than going to ebay and > then announcing it to us all.. that would have been an even better > opportunity. > > In a message dated 11/1/98 4:23:33 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > gmast@polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu writes: > > > I think this system will go for a good price. It will sell regardless. > > If this post offends anyone, I apologize but I know some people here > > might want one of these for their collection and this might be a good > > opportunity. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Oct 31 18:00:15 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:55 2005 Subject: CRT decay References: Message-ID: <363BA48E.B647F076@bigfoot.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > I've got an old CRT that is decaying along the glass edges. > > Are you _sure_. Glass is normally pretty stable, and if it was really > decaying I would have expected the CRT to have imploded. There's about > 1/2 a ton of force on the screen of even small CRTs. Metric ton? Just kidding. Anyway I don't think the person means the glass is actually decaying (awful thick in front and sides anyway) bit probably that the finish is eroding, getting rough. Probably had a coating that's starting to crumble or etch. Sounds like more defined description is due. Never seen glass decay at all before either and I also have glass (super thin) in watch glasses of very old watches as well as the faces of old radios and televisions. Didn't even think about the age of the CRT itself until you said 50 yrs and had to think that that's only 1948. Man how time flies. I have an oscilloscope (Navy surplus) that was used int he Korean War that's around 1951 and the CRT is like new all the way around, but internally getting a little dim. From general-one at home.com Tue Oct 20 17:48:00 1998 From: general-one at home.com (JASON ) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:55 2005 Subject: HELP!!! (OT) References: Message-ID: <362D1320.EF33765B@home.com> Hi! I was wondering if anyone knew how to download multi-part messages in Netscrape news. ThAnX, -Jason ( general-one@home.com) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 31 18:04:55 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:55 2005 Subject: What is a PX4? In-Reply-To: from "Pete Joules" at Oct 31, 98 07:59:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 486 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981101/a70d9c68/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 31 19:10:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:55 2005 Subject: eBay strikes again... In-Reply-To: <19981031182306.11929.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Oct 31, 98 10:23:05 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 719 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981101/8f787d3a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 31 20:56:19 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:55 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <363BC477.7B9D@swbell.net> from "Mitch Wright" at Oct 31, 98 08:16:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3480 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981101/74956448/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 31 21:33:02 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:55 2005 Subject: eBay strikes again... In-Reply-To: <19981101024415.17076.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Oct 31, 98 06:44:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 791 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981101/d670fcac/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 31 21:39:32 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:55 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <02f001be0545$32f48300$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> from "Buck Savage" at Oct 31, 98 07:10:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 774 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981101/0e540de6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 31 21:45:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:55 2005 Subject: eBay strikes again... In-Reply-To: <363A7E30.302C26B3@bigfoot.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at Oct 30, 98 09:04:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 936 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981101/92dbf5c0/attachment.ksh From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Sat Oct 31 22:46:47 1998 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:55 2005 Subject: ATMs. Message-ID: <01be0552$a1ea5a20$f17d38cb@help-desk> -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, 1 November 1998 12:46 Subject: ATMs. >Okay, curiosity time. What happens to obselete ATMs? Anyone here collect them? I've seen several, minus the electronics, at a hitech scrap dealer. (Same place I find a lot of computers)He sells them to opal dealers in Coober Pedy and Andamooka, plus an increasing number to owners of pistols. (er, handguns in us-speak, I suppose). Weapon ownership is extremely repressed here these days, and there are all sorts of draconian requirements about storage of firearms in general, and you can square that for pistols. (Almost impossible to license for Joe Average) Sometimes he has to pay a locksmith to open them, but he gets $500-600 ea for them. Cheers Geoff Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Sat Oct 31 22:52:11 1998 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:55 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) Message-ID: <01be0553$62dfa140$f17d38cb@help-desk> -----Original Message----- From: John Ruschmeyer To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, 1 November 1998 10:42 Subject: Re: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) >That is to say, because any software which ran on them can still be >run on a Pentium, there is little reason for someone to pick one up >just to run some beloved old game, Don't be too sure about that. Try running Chuck Yeagers Air Combat on a Pentium or 686. Or Battle Of Britain. one don't work, one exhibits some very strange effects. Both work very well on 386 or 486 machines. Cheers Geoff Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Sat Oct 31 23:13:48 1998 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:55 2005 Subject: A record? Message-ID: <01be0556$680d9700$f17d38cb@help-desk> -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, 1 November 1998 15:20 Subject: A record? > >I'd like to put forward a documented record of hauling a PDP 11/45 and >TU-10 tape drive and separate racks up two flights of stairs into a third >floor apartment between three people. >I'm sure someone will challenge this record and put it to shame, but I was >impressed with the feat. So am I. I'd have to concede that as being an act of considerable fortitude. I thought I did well moving a Vax 8530/6310 cluster, complete with 2 HSC50's, TA78/TU78 and about 15 RA8x and some RA7x drives from a warehouse to my parents house, then getting it up a narrow gap into a vacant granny flat. Over gravel. But we did have a forklift load it on the vehicle for us. I think the PDP effort beats that one. The TA78/TU78 was the hardest, and the heaviest.. It took six of us to move it all. (Called in a few favours, and a mate with a ute, uh, pickup in us-speak) This doesn't include the several large station wagon loads of 1/2" r-r tape and the docs for VAX-VMS 5.5. For those not acquainted with VMS, the manuals are loose leaf A4 Binders, and there are close to 40 of them. It's normally shipped on a pallet, and referred to by users as the "great grey wall" after the colour of the ring binders. (Some earlier versions were other colours, orange I think, but they weren't quite as big either.) Cheers Geoff Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au