From donm at cts.com Sun Nov 1 00:20:11 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:52 2005 Subject: teledisk (was: 8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II... In-Reply-To: <981031172144.23e00219@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > As I use Teledisk for commerce, I don't have any problems with > the $150 fee. I agree, it is a shame that the shareware version > can no longer be registered for a small fee, especially because > large quantities of freely distributable software is out there > in Teledisk-image format (for example, all the POS-related > RX50's for DEC Pro's are archived at Uppsula in teledisk format.) > > >Anybody know of any reasonable alternatives, for those of us that > >are hampered by rules against theft? > > Sydex does have a product which fills many of the same needs > that Teledisk does, and this is CopyQM. It supports 3.5", 5.25", > and 8" floppies and even has some features that Teledisk didn't > have. I don't have as much experience with it as I do with Teledisk, > but CopyQM does have the advantage that single-user licenses > are available for only US$25. True, Tim, but unless there have been some changes in CopyQM since I got my copy, it is incapable of handling some of the more esoteric formats used in many CP/M machines. It does an excellent job on formats similar to DOS, however. - don > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 > 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cws86.kyamk.fi/mirrors/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 1 00:20:19 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:55 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <02f001be0545$32f48300$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> (hhacker@gte.net) References: <02f001be0545$32f48300$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: <19981101062019.9323.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Buck Savage" wrote: > I 1) have an 11/44 being shipped to me in the next month, [...] > Mine is said to be some 30 feet long, A PDP-11/44 computer is a 10 1/2 inch high rack-mount box, usually installed in a short rack. The CPU, memory, and one or two SPC modules occupy a 14-slot backplane in the box. There is room in the box for additional backplanes for peripheral controllers. A 30-foot long PDP-11/44 installation must have a fairly large number of peripherals. From spc at armigeron.com Mon Nov 2 01:42:30 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:58 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) In-Reply-To: <363BD73E.F821807D@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Oct 31, 98 10:36:30 pm Message-ID: <199811020742.CAA09487@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1226 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/24403ebe/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Mon Nov 2 01:55:26 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:58 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) In-Reply-To: <199811010045.RAA19458@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Oct 31, 98 05:45:36 pm Message-ID: <199811020755.CAA09508@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2715 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/3719993f/attachment.ksh From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Sun Nov 1 01:06:59 1998 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:58 2005 Subject: A record? Message-ID: <01be0566$37e4d7e0$f17d38cb@help-desk> -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, 1 November 1998 17:22 Subject: Re: A record? >On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: >> I thought I did well moving a Vax 8530/6310 cluster, complete with >> 2 HSC50's, TA78/TU78 and about 15 RA8x and some RA7x drives >This is pretty impressive in its own right! Didn't impress me in 40c+ temps. I still have this system. The 6310 (now a 6320) and 1 HSC50 + Star Coupler & the SA550 with it's 8 RA7x (3 72's & 5 70's) are the WWW, FTP and Email site for the school I work at. When it eventually retires, (again!) it's coming here, but that won't be for a few years yet. The 8530 and its CI adapter cabinet, and the TA78/TU78 are used as a room divider at the internet cafe. The 8530 console (DEC Pro380 alias a PDP-11) is sitting on top of it. It lacks only the console cable to make it a goer. The 78's need a couple of new power supplies, but were working til the psu's failed. 1 HSC50 and a cabinet with 3 x RA81's serves as the counter, with a side panel as a desktop. Makes interesting decor for an internet cafe. Mind you it will be a lot more interesting once I get it all working again. Cheers Geoff Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 1 01:22:41 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:58 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <02f001be0545$32f48300$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: >BTW - mine was used for timesharing applications at a university, so >I expect yours is a fairly large machine. Please, tell me more about your >11/44, such as features of the CPU, the memory size, and peripheral >devices available, and the overall dimensions of the computer. Mine is >said to be some 30 feet long, so if yours is similar, how do you find the Wow, I don't know what's more impressive, that it's about 30 feet, or your having it shipped! Thats got to be about 16 racks! Mine is two racks, but I believe it was at least three at one point since it has two controller for RL drives. I've added a TU-81+ tape drive, but don't have a controller yet. Still haven't gotten the thing powered on yet anyway, hard to find time to go out in the garage and work on it. >space to put all the parts together. I plan to put mine in the living room >of my home, and my wife, as you might imagine, has some reservations >on the matter! Um, have you ever worked around any major computer installations? These things are noisy! I occasionally bring in a RL01 or RL02 drive into the house to attach to a Q-Bus system and that's noisier than I'm wanting to have running much. Then there is the hum of the power supply, and let's not forget the heat. Personally I want a place with a nice big two or three car garage eventually, put in airconditioning and proper power, and you'd have a good computer room (though probably not the cleanest). Oh, as for OS's, a /44 should run just about anything that doesn't have very narrow hardware requirements (i.e. Version 5,6,7 UNIX). Hopefully you're getting documentation. I finally found a copy of the tech manual today (YIPEE), along with a bunch of VAX stuff at a local junk store. Unfortunatly I missed the Ultrix-32 Distro tapes, but got the manuals (a friend happened to be in latter in the day and found them). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From pjoules at joules.enterprise-plc.com Sun Nov 1 04:19:53 1998 From: pjoules at joules.enterprise-plc.com (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:58 2005 Subject: A record? In-Reply-To: <01be0556$680d9700$f17d38cb@help-desk> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > I thought I did well moving a Vax 8530/6310 cluster, complete with > 2 HSC50's, TA78/TU78 and about 15 RA8x and some RA7x drives from > a warehouse to my parents house, then getting it up a narrow gap into a > vacant granny flat. Over gravel. > But we did have a forklift load it on the vehicle for us. > > I think the PDP effort beats that one. > What about my uVAX II? I collected it from the 2nd floor (3rd floor in US terms I think), 2 of us carried 2 RA81s and the 19" rack unit down a steep, narrow, winding staircase and the out through the owner's garden before loading it all into a medium six UK hatchback (Vauxhall Cavalier). My other 3 RA* drives came from an old established University down even narrower staircases. At this end I cheated, as I was moving them on my own by then I brought them into the house by wheelbarrow :) Regards Pete From fauradon at pclink.com Sun Nov 1 07:47:52 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:58 2005 Subject: Week end acquisitions Message-ID: <001501be059e$395e3700$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Hi all, Pretty good finds at the Minnesota Hamfest yesterday. 2 Gridpads Complete (only one set of manual) Anybody has software for those? The Voice, Odyssey 2 Spech and sound effects module Others that are not 10 years old but I'll brag about them anyway: 75 MHz pentium laptop ($20 working) Epson ActionLaser 1500 ($25 working) set of SCM ethernet cards ($2 each Unknown condition) Tere was a few other Grid computers, laptops of all sorts (zenith, toshiba, ps/2 70 ...), and a lot more but my budget was very limited this time so I pcked up the one I wanted the most. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ From gram at cnct.com Sun Nov 1 08:53:13 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:58 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) References: <199811020755.CAA09508@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <363C75D9.16B2E3B8@cnct.com> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > I'm a programmer who's currently stuck in a sysadmin/netadmin role and for > the past two months I've done nothing but put out fires nearly every day > (and this is a network of Linux boxes---if you treat Linux as Unix, then it > may be slightly on topic 8-) what with problems with INND (almost 10 years > old) and Sendmail (15 years old and still a security nightmare [3]) and > poorly written, non-documented cryptic and convoluted shell scripts in Perl > [4] > [4] Which takes the worst aspects of Basic, C, shell, awk, grep and > C++ with none of the good aspects. Blech. [5] > > [5] IMNSHO 8-) Oh, Perl is a good language, I have enormous respect for Larry Wall. Remember that there has never been a language written in which it is impossible to write bad programs. Admittedly I don't use it as much as I should (it's too new), as a sysadmin type my main language is still the Bourne shell and its descendants after all these years. And even when I write scripts for ksh and bash, I try to stick to the subset compatible with the original, since that way they'll run on my Tandy 6000 and AT&T 7300s. (Oh, I do document even my simplest scripts, since there are several that have been evolving for a decade and a half, since my days as a Tandy tech support guy). And I challenge you to find any "non-worst" aspects of awk. After almost 16 years, I still can't use it without having the man page immediately at hand. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From aaron at wfi-inc.com Sun Nov 1 09:56:31 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:58 2005 Subject: Very OT, not Classic at all: Comments on Perl (was Re: Ancient , machines turning on) In-Reply-To: <363C75D9.16B2E3B8@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Oh, Perl is a good language, I have enormous respect for Larry Wall. > Remember that there has never been a language written in which it is > impossible to write bad programs. Admittedly I don't use it as much > as I should (it's too new), as a sysadmin type my main language is > still the Bourne shell and its descendants after all these years. > And even when I write scripts for ksh and bash, I try to stick to > the subset compatible with the original, since that way they'll run > on my Tandy 6000 and AT&T 7300s. (Oh, I do document even my simplest > scripts, since there are several that have been evolving for a decade > and a half, since my days as a Tandy tech support guy). I'm in the same situation as Cappy, a programmer playing a sysadmin on TV. But for me, our NT machines (after the 10th format) are stable (our fax server has been running well for ~3 months without a reboot, even with SP3!) and the Linux and FreeBSD boxen are even more so. Perl has been a godsend for me, since it allows me to write fairly intricate system-related programs with good portablilty between the Unix and NT machines. In fact, I have one larger program (~ 7,500 lines) which performs some automated ftp uploading of client's files that has been running without a hitch for more than 6 months! I think I've made less than a dozen mods during that time, while the system was still on-line, and just killed and restarted without missing a beat. I used to do any CGI-web stuff in C. Halfway through a project to allow clients to have access to status information in a MSSQL database on an NT server (web server is Linux/Apache) I tried Perl; I finished 3 weeks *ahead* of schedule! When was the last time that happened??? And using the Sypberl module, I was able to connect to the MSSQL server on the first try. Damn! And you want to rag on Perl? > > And I challenge you to find any "non-worst" aspects of awk. After > almost 16 years, I still can't use it without having the man page > immediately at hand. Amen... Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." --> Scott Draves From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Nov 1 09:57:21 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:58 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <19981101155721.27640.qmail@hotmail.com> It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for computers made by Apple, I don't know of any. I especially wish the PC had a ROM debugger. It would really help me feel like I'm using a worthwhile machine. >> (and isn't this obvious) acceptable at the keyboard are relative to the >> operating system. So, which OS is it that is running on your machine? > >The 11/44 has a rather nice monitor built in to the CPU system. It runs >on an 8085 processor, and it lets you type commands on an standard ascii >terminal to edit the PDP11's memory, start/halt programs, etc. Even look >at the CPU microprogram counter. > >It's a replacement for the old lights-and-switches panel. The commands >are totally independant of any OS you might be running - in fact you can >use the 'frontpanel' commands on a machine with no mass storage at all. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Nov 1 10:07:02 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:58 2005 Subject: Repair strategy (was Re: eBay strikes again...) Message-ID: <19981101160703.17315.qmail@hotmail.com> Because while VCRs are not considered modular by the general public, computers are. This means that while you can't tell someone that their VCR's motherboard is fried, you can say that about a computer. A repairshop trick to get more money, really. Companies help out a lot too. I'm sure schematics for a NSX Penitum-II 933 Turbo motherboard are a lot harder to find than those for a JVS VCR. And that's another reason why noone bothers to fix motherboards, because while a VCR has certain standard components, a motherboard can have damn near anything on it. It's also interesting how while a power supply is often the easiest component to diagnose and repair, it is always treated like a module, and I doubt many techs have been curious enough to open a PSU. I read in a book once that opening a PSU will cause damage to a special layer that prevents interference from the PSU to the motherboard. I haven't been able to substantiate this... >Actually, in the UK, it's _very_ uncommon to buy complete PCBs for TVs or >VCRs. Buying individual components is a lot more common. And custom chips >should be available while the device is in production, but good luck >finding them in 10 years time :-(. > >I am not sure why 'repairing' computers is done by module replacement >while TVs/VCRs are fixed to component level. It's no more difficult to >change a chip in a computer than in a VCR (a lot of modern VCRs are full >of surface-mount parts). It's no more difficult to trace the fault >either. > >-tony > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Nov 1 10:20:30 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:58 2005 Subject: ATMs Message-ID: <19981101162031.9169.qmail@hotmail.com> Actually, my father asked me, which got me thinking. You know, here in Boston, we had text terminal ATMs until about a year ago, when they were replaced by touch-screen graphical ATMs. I don't like them too much just because of the lurid colors. But anyway, I was just curious if they used a microprocessor, microcontroller, or something else... >> Has anyone here had any experience with ATMs? >> What sort of specs might an ATM have? How does it connect to the >> bank computer? >> Thanks >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> > > >Uh, thinking of a little midnight "project"? > > >Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >"UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." > --> Scott Draves > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Nov 1 12:09:02 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:58 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981101155721.27640.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for > computers made by Apple, I don't know of any. I especially wish the > PC had a ROM debugger. It would really help me feel like I'm using a > worthwhile machine. Boot DOS (or open a DOS window). Type "debug". Not in ROM but its what you want. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 12:13:02 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:58 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <199811011813.AA06704@world.std.com> < It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for < computers made by Apple, I don't know of any. I especially wish the < PC had a ROM debugger. It would really help me feel like I'm using a < worthwhile machine. Shows what you don't know. Non exhaustive list of micros with debug roms: PDP-11/03, 11/23, 11/73, 11/83, 11/84 (most all the non front pannel 11s) SC/MP IMSAI IMP-48 Kim-1 SYM-1 AMI EV68 series Motorola 6800D1 and D2 intel SDK-80/85/88 SWTP 6800 ALTAIR-8800b (the front pannel is in a 1702 prom!) Godbout 8080/front pannel replacement (octal keypad!) Netronics Exploror 8085 CCS 2200 series s100 crate Heath H8 Micromint SB180 (z180) Intel MDS-800 Intel MCS-8 (8008) MicroVAX series including VS2000, 3100, 4000 and others. I am very certain I've left a truckload of them off. Also if the PC had rom basic there are instruction in basic that allow access to memory, IO and machine language subroutines. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 12:13:10 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:58 2005 Subject: Repair strategy (was Re: eBay strikes again...) Message-ID: <199811011813.AA06773@world.std.com> < repairshop trick to get more money, really. Companies help out a lot < too. I'm sure schematics for a NSX Penitum-II 933 Turbo motherboard You havent the first understanding of repair costs. Lets assume that the chips and prints are available. there are only a few chips and fairly easy to zero in on the failed one. Problem if it takes an hour to do this (including remove and replaceing the bad chip) thats easily 30-50$. Now that does not include getting the board out, putting it back in assuring nothing else was wrong and running it for a few hours (burnin). When a mother board costs between 49-499$ the simple economics arent there. Also repairs are very hard to do on multilayer boards (requires skilled people) and it's very easy to compromise reliablity. Now if the failure was from lightining or a power supply failure the whole board is likely cooked anyway. This also side steps the problem of keeping special tools to desolder the parts, keeping spares on hand, testing and all. All of these things cost and if you have to keep a stock of parts (that can be come antiquated) so you can turn equipment around fast (would you wait a week for reapirs?) is expensive. From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Nov 1 12:23:36 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <19981101182339.23113.qmail@hotmail.com> I know about that. A ROM-based debugger would be helpful if I don't have a bootable system. > >On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > >> It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for >> computers made by Apple, I don't know of any. I especially wish the >> PC had a ROM debugger. It would really help me feel like I'm using a >> worthwhile machine. > >Boot DOS (or open a DOS window). Type "debug". Not in ROM but its what >you want. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Nov 1 12:30:33 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <19981101183034.15472.qmail@hotmail.com> Sorry, I meant home personal computers. PDPs, IMSAIs, various development systems don't count. Satisfied? >< It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for >< computers made by Apple, I don't know of any. I especially wish the >< PC had a ROM debugger. It would really help me feel like I'm using a >< worthwhile machine. > >Shows what you don't know. Non exhaustive list of micros with debug roms: > >PDP-11/03, 11/23, 11/73, 11/83, 11/84 (most all the non front pannel 11s) > >SC/MP >IMSAI IMP-48 >Kim-1 >SYM-1 >AMI EV68 series >Motorola 6800D1 and D2 >intel SDK-80/85/88 >SWTP 6800 >ALTAIR-8800b (the front pannel is in a 1702 prom!) >Godbout 8080/front pannel replacement (octal keypad!) >Netronics Exploror 8085 >CCS 2200 series s100 crate >Heath H8 >Micromint SB180 (z180) >Intel MDS-800 >Intel MCS-8 (8008) >MicroVAX series including VS2000, 3100, 4000 and others. > >I am very certain I've left a truckload of them off. > >Also if the PC had rom basic there are instruction in basic that allow >access to memory, IO and machine language subroutines. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Nov 1 12:35:06 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <981101133506.23e001fb@trailing-edge.com> >< It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for >< computers made by Apple, I don't know of any. >Sorry, I meant home personal computers. PDPs, IMSAIs, various >development systems don't count. Satisfied? Most early "home computers" do have the functionality of a debugger in ROM - they just take decimal numbers, not Hex/Octal, and require you to type PEEK and POKE :-). Tim. From kozmik at wave.home.com Sun Nov 1 12:43:14 1998 From: kozmik at wave.home.com (Dominique Cormann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: Mac emulators? In-Reply-To: <363A78C9.5DE3@bright.net> References: <363A78C9.5DE3@bright.net> Message-ID: <363CABC27B.A7B8KOZMIK@mail.glph1.on.wave.home.com> On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 21:41:13 -0500 oajones wrote: > Hi Aaron, > > I downloaded the vMac emulator. I own two Mac Plus computers and I > still don't have a ROM image. In my opinion it is the biggest pain in > the rear I ever saw to get the ROM image. Just thought I would throw out > my two cents. Have a nice day! :) > There is a another mac emulator that runs in DOS called Fusion. It will emulate a 68040 mac, and with the 1 meg rom, you can even run MacOS 8.1! http://www.blittersoft.com/fusionpc.html -- ============================================================--------- Dominique Cormann Email:kozmik@wave.home.com dcormann@uoguelph.ca Homepage:kozmik.dyn.ml.org From John.Dykstra.jdykstra at nt.com Sun Nov 1 12:38:30 1998 From: John.Dykstra.jdykstra at nt.com (John Dykstra) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: bit addressing, alignment, bus errors, and VM (was Re: PDP-10 arch question) Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981101123830.0091c980@47.161.112.121> >> Are you certain of that? Cray designed the CDC 160, and had a hand in the >> CDC 6000s, but I do not think the STAR. Seymour Cray had more than a hand in the design of the 6000 series. Although he worked with some fine engineers (Thornton (sp?) is one name I remember), I believe that the instruction set, architecture and packaging scheme all primarily came from Seymour. >After more than 25 years, I am not certain of anything. But if Cray had a >hand in the CDC 6000s, and he was still around CDC at the time the >STAR 100 was designed and built, I would certainly think that he was >also involved in the STAR 100 as well. As I remember (I was working on CDC's mainframe products at the time, not the STAR), the STAR's were done by the people "left behind" after Seymour left. As such, there was an unspoken agenda to the effort: The engineers were trying to prove that they were just as good as Seymour, and the executives were trying to prove that letting him leave wasn't a mistake. >I thought I saw an article about >the STAR 100 recently which described the circular nature of the physical >rack which was required in order to reduce to length of the wires which >interconnected the different parts of the system. Again, I'm not positive about this, but I think that the STAR's that I walked past on the test floor were in conventional rectangular boxes. ---- John Dykstra jdykstra@nortel.com Principal Software Architect voice: +1 651 415-1604 Nortel Networks fax: +1 612 932-8549 From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 12:55:24 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <199811011855.AA25447@world.std.com> < I know about that. A ROM-based debugger would be helpful if I don't < have a bootable system. helpful with what? Even a rom based debugger presumes there are some system resources that work. For a PC that would mean keyboard, video, some ram and of course the rom plus some of the glue hardware. In reality the only thin not working at that point is the floppy/hard disks. Also most debug monitors are minimalistic and assumptions are you have sources for what your debugging and prints if hardware. For a PC that is not likely. For a PDP-11 and most of the systems I listed before that is likely or at least so to the module level. Different systems concept. Allison From spc at armigeron.com Mon Nov 2 14:10:54 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981101155721.27640.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Nov 1, 98 07:57:21 am Message-ID: <199811022010.PAA10458@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 559 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/98cfb76e/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 1 12:30:20 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981101183034.15472.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >Sorry, I meant home personal computers. PDPs, IMSAIs, various >development systems don't count. Satisfied? Ah, but on this list, and most definitly in my home, PDP's, IMSAI's, etc. are home personal computers :^) Besides Allison mentioned the IBM PC with ROM BASIC, and I've used a Zenith Z248 (a 286) with a ROM Monitor that you can drop into, both of these are definitly not developement machines. My NeXT slab had a ROM based monitor, and the PowerMac I'm typing this on can be dropped into the debugger at any time by hitting the proper key sequence. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 1 12:32:37 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <199811011855.AA25447@world.std.com> Message-ID: >< I know about that. A ROM-based debugger would be helpful if I don't >< have a bootable system. > >helpful with what? Even a rom based debugger presumes there are some >system resources that work. For a PC that would mean keyboard, video, I think he means ROM Monitor, from personal experience I know it's nice to have a ROM monitor that you can drop into and exercise the Hardware if you don't have any boot media. Then again, why that would be helpful on a PC where you can get DOS without even trying, I don't know why it would be helpful. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From hhacker at gte.net Sun Nov 1 14:03:32 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <05db01be05d2$b4a229b0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> For me, a personal computer is defined as any computer that I own and operate. If I could find a SYS/360 or SYS370, or Sigma/7 or Sigma/9 or a CDC 7600/6600/etc or a DPS/9, or ... ( well, you get the idea), I would consider such a computer a personal computer. Any body know where I can get one of these behemoths? William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 11:31 AM Subject: Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt >>Sorry, I meant home personal computers. PDPs, IMSAIs, various >>development systems don't count. Satisfied? > >Ah, but on this list, and most definitly in my home, PDP's, IMSAI's, etc. >are home personal computers :^) > >Besides Allison mentioned the IBM PC with ROM BASIC, and I've used a Zenith >Z248 (a 286) with a ROM Monitor that you can drop into, both of these are >definitly not developement machines. My NeXT slab had a ROM based monitor, >and the PowerMac I'm typing this on can be dropped into the debugger at any >time by hitting the proper key sequence. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 1 15:16:56 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) In-Reply-To: <363C75D9.16B2E3B8@cnct.com> (message from Ward Donald Griffiths III on Sun, 01 Nov 1998 09:53:13 -0500) References: <199811020755.CAA09508@armigeron.com> <363C75D9.16B2E3B8@cnct.com> Message-ID: <19981101211656.13177.qmail@brouhaha.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > And I challenge you to find any "non-worst" aspects of awk. After > almost 16 years, I still can't use it without having the man page > immediately at hand. I like awk. It's a simple language that is good at solving certain classes of problems (and terrible at others). But I'd rather have a bunch of small tools that each solve some problems well than one huge kitchen-sink tool that solves all problems badly. That was, after all, the original Unix philosophy (see _Software Tools_ and _The Unix Programming Environment_). To each their own... From yowza at yowza.com Sun Nov 1 15:18:36 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <199811011855.AA25447@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > < I know about that. A ROM-based debugger would be helpful if I don't > < have a bootable system. > > helpful with what? Even a rom based debugger presumes there are some > system resources that work. Well, not to put too fine a line on it, all modern PC's have a built-in debugger. The Pentium has a built-in debug mode and brings the debug port out on the pins. I don't know of any PC maker that includes a debug port on the machine though. Check out products from Arium Corp (www.arium.com) for cool tools that use this capability. -- Doug From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sun Nov 1 15:24:07 1998 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: FA: Apple Lisa and Apple IIC LCD Display Message-ID: <363CD177.6D1A@polymail.calpoly.edu> I was a member of this list for quite a while but the mail load got to be too much for my school account. I have placed an Apple Lisa on the eBay auction today. I'm selling it for a friend. The bidding ends on Sunday the 8th of November. It has a noisy drive and the monitor doesn't come on. The guy selling it doesn't want to put any work into it so it's sold as-is. I posted some pictures at my page: http://www.calpoly.edu/~gmast/sfs/lisa/lisa.html I think this system will go for a good price. It will sell regardless. If this post offends anyone, I apologize but I know some people here might want one of these for their collection and this might be a good opportunity. For more info, check out the auction listing at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=39295177 and check out the pictures at the link above. I also listed one of those LCD displays for the Apple IIc. It's in great shape. The auction is at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=39285574 The bidding must take place through the auction now that I've listed them. Bidding is free but you must register with the auction. Thanks, Greg From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 1 15:22:50 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981101155721.27640.qmail@hotmail.com> (maxeskin@hotmail.com) References: <19981101155721.27640.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <19981101212250.13215.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Max Eskin" wrote: > It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for > computers made by Apple, I don't know of any. I especially wish the > PC had a ROM debugger. It would really help me feel like I'm using a > worthwhile machine. Most of the later revisions of the Commodore PET firmware. Don't know why they didn't put it into the C64 though. IIRC some Ohio Scientific machines had a ROM debug monitor. And of course, that was often ALL you got with KIM, TIM, SYM, AIM, etc., though there were BASIC, Assembler, and FORTH ROMs available for some of them. On a modern machine the utility would be much lower. For instance, if IBM had made a debugger like DOS's DEBUG available as part of the ROM BIOS, would you really want to use it to debug a Windows (or Linux) application? Even on big iron in the 60s and 70s that had real front panels, most software debugging was done using debugger programs like DDT loaded in from disk or tape. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 1 15:26:15 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981101183034.15472.qmail@hotmail.com> (maxeskin@hotmail.com) References: <19981101183034.15472.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <19981101212615.13250.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Max Eskin" wrote: > Sorry, I meant home personal computers. PDPs, IMSAIs, various > development systems don't count. Satisfied? Since when is an IMSAI not a personal computer? Surely you're not one of the people that claim that IBM "invented" the Personal Computer with the 5150? From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 1 15:30:17 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: definition of personal computer In-Reply-To: <05db01be05d2$b4a229b0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> (hhacker@gte.net) References: <05db01be05d2$b4a229b0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: <19981101213017.13299.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Buck Savage" wrote: > For me, a personal computer is defined as any computer that I own > and operate. ^^^^^^^^^^^ > If I could find a SYS/360 or SYS370, or Sigma/7 or Sigma/9 or > a CDC 7600/6600/etc or a DPS/9, or ... ( well, you get the idea), I would > consider such a computer a personal computer. Any body know where > I can get one of these behemoths? No, and by your own definition I don't think a CDC 6600 or 7600 will *ever* be a personal computer for anyone. It would be *much* harder for an individual to operate one of those than the DECsystem-1090 that Scott and I have, and we're not much closer to operating that than when we got it. From yowza at yowza.com Sun Nov 1 15:43:50 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: definition of personal computer In-Reply-To: <19981101213017.13299.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > > For me, a personal computer is defined as any computer that I own > > and operate. Is it time again for our weekly semantics game already? OK! Personal Computer: a computer small enough for one person to easily transport, cheap enough for one person to easily afford, and simple enough for one person to operate (i.e., interactive). The first personal computer was Edmund Berkeley's GENIAC from around 1955. -- Doug From hhacker at gte.net Sun Nov 1 15:48:20 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <065d01be05e1$58b32af0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> It is interesting that 5150 is also the numerical code attached to the process by which a person is involutarily committed to a mental ward. The first personal computer I ever saw was an IBM, though the number is not now known to me. However, it had a switch on the front which allowed for either execution of a BASIC interpreter, or execution of an APL interpreter. It was a little larger than an Osborne 1 but, its structure had a lot in common with the Osborne 1, or the Kaypro, etc. That a person does not have knowledge of a source of a "BIG IRON" machine, nor the ability to operate it has little to do with the definition of personal computer. In the early to mid 70's, I was an operator of 360 and 370 computers, and believe me, it is perfectly possible for a single operator to keep such machines in operation. William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 1:30 PM Subject: Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt >"Max Eskin" wrote: >> Sorry, I meant home personal computers. PDPs, IMSAIs, various >> development systems don't count. Satisfied? > >Since when is an IMSAI not a personal computer? Surely you're not one of the >people that claim that IBM "invented" the Personal Computer with the 5150? > > From mbg at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 16:16:55 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <199811012216.AA16443@world.std.com> >For me, a personal computer is defined as any computer that I own and >operate. If I could find a SYS/360 or SYS370, or Sigma/7 or Sigma/9 or That's exactly how I've viewed it as well. When I told people that my personal computer was a pdp-11/93 or a uVax system, they generally balked at the idea, though. I've had to remind them that it is a computer (that's never in question), and that I own it and use it. Hence a *personal* computer... And although I didn't have one back when the Imsai became available, I did get my first one (an 11/10) in 1980. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From hhacker at gte.net Sun Nov 1 16:25:02 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: definition of personal computer Message-ID: <066801be05e6$78c7a780$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> I know perfectly well the accepted definition of personal computer but, language is as much subjective as objective. So, though society may subscribe to a specific definition, there is no reason to assume that all persons of that society also agree to subscribe. After all, this is not France, and we have no national language police. Nevertheless, your point is well taken. William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 1:48 PM Subject: Re: definition of personal computer >> > For me, a personal computer is defined as any computer that I own >> > and operate. > >Is it time again for our weekly semantics game already? OK! > >Personal Computer: a computer small enough for one person to easily >transport, cheap enough for one person to easily afford, and simple enough >for one person to operate (i.e., interactive). The first personal >computer was Edmund Berkeley's GENIAC from around 1955. > >-- Doug > From hhacker at gte.net Sun Nov 1 16:30:06 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <067101be05e7$2dd6d1f0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> I suspect that you have several. Hence, what is currently in your repository? One interesting piece I have is a MicroWay 80860 board. It is generally described as a single chip Cray 1, and can in bursts (perhaps at greater rates) compute at 80MFLOPS on a 40MHz clock. As it happens, this processor is not quite fast enough but, with about 10 times the power, one could watch movies of flights about the Mandelbrot set in real time at about 1600 by 1280 pixels in 24 bit color. William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 2:21 PM Subject: Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt > >>For me, a personal computer is defined as any computer that I own and >>operate. If I could find a SYS/360 or SYS370, or Sigma/7 or Sigma/9 or > >That's exactly how I've viewed it as well. When I told people that >my personal computer was a pdp-11/93 or a uVax system, they generally >balked at the idea, though. I've had to remind them that it is a >computer (that's never in question), and that I own it and use it. >Hence a *personal* computer... And although I didn't have one back >when the Imsai became available, I did get my first one (an 11/10) >in 1980. > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Nov 1 16:34:18 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: FA: Apple Lisa and Apple IIC LCD Display Message-ID: <6d296978.363ce1ea@aol.com> at the risk of being a smartass, id think that some of the people here would've appreciated an offer on this list first rather than going to ebay and then announcing it to us all.. that would have been an even better opportunity. In a message dated 11/1/98 4:23:33 PM US Eastern Standard Time, gmast@polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu writes: > I think this system will go for a good price. It will sell regardless. > If this post offends anyone, I apologize but I know some people here > might want one of these for their collection and this might be a good > opportunity. From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Sun Nov 1 11:42:37 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: definition of personal computer In-Reply-To: <066801be05e6$78c7a780$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: <199811012237.RAA09877@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:25:02 -0800 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Buck Savage" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: definition of personal computer > X-To: Everyone have a good points but don't forget that "Personal Computer" is just that genernalization! :-) This is overworked term and it's meaning is getting fuzzier with every year because one can own a $10K or a 5 cent computer or mutiples of it by one owner. But really whole thing about real meaning behind "PC", the breaking of dam to masses owning them was passing thru $3K, 2K and sub 1K, YUK! I don't refer to "PC" much these days, I call them computers, machine(s), and model numbers, x86 etc. Jason D. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From yowza at yowza.com Sun Nov 1 16:38:10 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: definition of personal computer In-Reply-To: <066801be05e6$78c7a780$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Buck Savage wrote: > I know perfectly well the accepted definition of personal computer but, > language is as much subjective as objective. So, though society may > subscribe to a specific definition, there is no reason to assume that > all persons of that society also agree to subscribe. After all, this is not > France, and we have no national language police. Nevertheless, your > point is well taken. Yes, this is France (as well as several other countries). There is no "accepted definition" of personal computer, but I like mine, and it does help reduce the noise when we all mean the same thing by the terms we use. Of course, you may own a Cray 1 as your personal computer (used in the "accepted" meaning of personal property), but that doesn't make a Cray 1 a "personal computer" in the taxonomical sense. Since popular jargon is so ambiguous, perhaps we should invent our own vocabulary for this list. Take all of the known computer variations, assign a variable to each attribute, solve a system of simultaneous equations, and then assign arbitrary words to the attributes. (Oh, that's a nice fwerp you've got there, Buck :-) -- Doug From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Sun Nov 1 11:53:12 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: FA: Apple Lisa and Apple IIC LCD Display In-Reply-To: <6d296978.363ce1ea@aol.com> Message-ID: <199811012247.RAA14019@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 17:34:18 EST > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: FA: Apple Lisa and Apple IIC LCD Display > at the risk of being a smartass, id think that some of the people here > would've appreciated an offer on this list first rather than going to ebay and > then announcing it to us all.. that would have been an even better > opportunity. Snip! Exactly. I was going to... but you beat me to it, Dave. I hate Ebay and always kick Ebay for loss of intellegient control to keep things in reasonable terms and less of "out of control", root out shillers, sort of things like that. I couldn't bid on items that I could appreciate and within value without everything trampling to it without control. These days, I stroll through looking for what I can offer within reason and post wanted in newsgroups. I don't appreciate the classified2k either. Couldn't find a good items at reasonable prices according to current market conditions and much less if used or broken. Jason D. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Nov 1 17:34:13 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: FA: Apple Lisa and Apple IIC LCD Display In-Reply-To: <6d296978.363ce1ea@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 1998 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > at the risk of being a smartass, id think that some of the people here > would've appreciated an offer on this list first rather than going to ebay and > then announcing it to us all.. that would have been an even better > opportunity. Yeah, I only take objection to his posting of this advertisement because he seems to only use this list to advertise his ebay listings, and does not contribute anything. Now, I don't know if that means he shouldn't be allowed to do so, but it sure is rude. Especially when he says "I used to be a member of this list" as if that makes any difference, since back then all he used to do was advertise his ebay listings. > > In a message dated 11/1/98 4:23:33 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > gmast@polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu writes: > > > I think this system will go for a good price. It will sell regardless. > > If this post offends anyone, I apologize but I know some people here > > might want one of these for their collection and this might be a good > > opportunity. > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 12:51:44 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <363BE8BD.63C0@swbell.net> from "Mitch Wright" at Oct 31, 98 10:51:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 685 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981101/3de6de64/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 12:36:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: A record? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Oct 31, 98 07:46:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 734 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981101/d7483025/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Nov 1 17:36:56 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: definition of personal computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > Yes, this is France (as well as several other countries). There is no > "accepted definition" of personal computer, but I like mine, and it does > help reduce the noise when we all mean the same thing by the terms we use. > > Of course, you may own a Cray 1 as your personal computer (used in the > "accepted" meaning of personal property), but that doesn't make a Cray 1 a > "personal computer" in the taxonomical sense. "Personal Computer" is such a worthless term; we should throw it out. Because even the timeshare computers could be used "personally" if someone hacked in and killed all the other users' processes. That at least reduces the number of terms we have to argue about by one (there's still "micro", "mini", "workstation", etc.) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 13:06:54 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981101155721.27640.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Nov 1, 98 07:57:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1153 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981101/0fe54178/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 12:48:38 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <363BDE0B.2D4D@swbell.net> from "Mitch Wright" at Oct 31, 98 10:05:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1412 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981101/baafddd5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 12:41:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Oct 31, 98 10:02:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1224 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981101/4da27ade/attachment.ksh From mew_jac at swbell.net Sun Nov 1 17:46:21 1998 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt References: <067101be05e7$2dd6d1f0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: <363CF2CD.5FA2@swbell.net> So what are you personaly going to do with 30' of rip roaring PDP-11/44 and diskdrives? --Mitch Buck Savage wrote: > > I suspect that you have several. Hence, what is currently in your > repository? > > One interesting piece I have is a MicroWay 80860 board. It is > generally described as a single chip Cray 1, and can in bursts > (perhaps at greater rates) compute at 80MFLOPS on a 40MHz > clock. As it happens, this processor is not quite fast enough but, > with about 10 times the power, one could watch movies of flights > about the Mandelbrot set in real time at about 1600 by 1280 pixels > in 24 bit color. > > William R. Buckley > -----Original Message----- > From: Megan > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 2:21 PM > Subject: Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt > > > > >>For me, a personal computer is defined as any computer that I own and > >>operate. If I could find a SYS/360 or SYS370, or Sigma/7 or Sigma/9 or > > > >That's exactly how I've viewed it as well. When I told people that > >my personal computer was a pdp-11/93 or a uVax system, they generally > >balked at the idea, though. I've had to remind them that it is a > >computer (that's never in question), and that I own it and use it. > >Hence a *personal* computer... And although I didn't have one back > >when the Imsai became available, I did get my first one (an 11/10) > >in 1980. > > > > Megan Gentry > > Former RT-11 Developer > > > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | > >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | > >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | > >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 13:19:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: Repair strategy (was Re: eBay strikes again...) In-Reply-To: <199811011813.AA06773@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 1, 98 01:13:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3101 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981101/79ee0989/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Nov 1 17:45:28 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: A record? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > I'd like to put forward a documented record of hauling a PDP 11/45 and > > TU-10 tape drive and separate racks up two flights of stairs into a third > > floor apartment between three people. > > Well done! I assume the racks were full at the time. No, no, no! That would have been close to impossible (not to mention dangerous and stupid). There is some heavy crap in those power supplies. > I've moved all my collection with at most one person helping for each > item to be moved (if you see what I mean -- no item has ever had more > than 2 people carrying it). But then I'm not afraid to take things apart, > so I tend to split machines up into carryable units. My 11/45, for > example, was moved as : A pile of boards, the empty CPU box, the > frontpanel bits, the backplane, the PSUs (in a lot of bits each), the > totally empty rack, assorted mounting rails, etc. We moved everything up in chunks: the 11/45 main unit in one piece, the two power supplies that fed it (we couldn't figure out how to separate them so we just left them together), the TU10, then the racks. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From mew_jac at swbell.net Sun Nov 1 18:02:57 1998 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt References: Message-ID: <363CF6B1.51A@swbell.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > > If you saw this CPU card in a junk pile and didn't know it was a UNIBUS > > card you'd mistake it for some kind of 8085 controller board with 74181s > > on it. Sort of sick, a PDP-11/44 slaved to a 8085. > > Hmm... Well, DEC cards have a pretty distinctive form factor, so you'd > probably guess is was something out of a DEC machine. > > But acutally, the 8085 is on a card called the MFM (Multi Function Your absolutely right, in this system: Slot4 M7094 Data Path Slot5 M7095 Control Slot6 M7096 MFM & 8085 Slot7 M7097 Cache & 74s181 Slot8 M7098 UBI Mitch > Module). That contains very little of the CPU. There are 2 other cards > with the main CPU on it (that's where you'd find the 74S181s) + cache, > more bus interfacing, etc. The CPU is 5 boards I think + 1 for the > floating point + 2 for the CIS (which I don't have in my 11/44). > > -tony From yowza at yowza.com Sun Nov 1 17:59:00 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've got an old CRT that is decaying along the glass edges. > > Are you _sure_. Glass is normally pretty stable, and if it was really > decaying I would have expected the CRT to have imploded. There's about > 1/2 a ton of force on the screen of even small CRTs. No, I'm not sure. When I first saw it, I thought mold was growing along the edges, but closer examination showed that that "growth" was inside the glass, and the patterns were somewhat crystaline. I'll let you know if it spontaneously implodes. > However, there are CRTs that are made with a laminated glass faceplate - That's probably it. I saw beads along the edge, so it must be the plastic that is crystalizing. I'll still let you know when it spontaneously implodes, though :-) > No remaining phosphor? This is strange... What on earth is going on? It's possible that the phosphor was simply hidden by the now-opaque plastic crystal. So, how do you detect these laminated CRTs, and can they be sealed to prevent this type of decay? -- Doug From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Nov 1 17:59:32 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <19981101235932.2381.qmail@hotmail.com> That is also a nice ability. But, BASIC isn't present in 386+ PCs. Does anyone know if there is some kind of commercial solution to this? >>< It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for >>< computers made by Apple, I don't know of any. >>Sorry, I meant home personal computers. PDPs, IMSAIs, various >>development systems don't count. Satisfied? > >Most early "home computers" do have the functionality of a >debugger in ROM - they just take decimal numbers, not Hex/Octal, and >require you to type PEEK and POKE :-). > >Tim. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Nov 1 18:04:42 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <19981102000444.21307.qmail@hotmail.com> I mentioned that all Apple computers have debuggers/monitors. NeXT is a workstation as far as I am concernced. The IBM PC is a good example of how things should be, though if it had a monitor too, it would be nice. Not like i'd ever use it, just nice to know it's there. >>Sorry, I meant home personal computers. PDPs, IMSAIs, various >>development systems don't count. Satisfied? > >Ah, but on this list, and most definitly in my home, PDP's, IMSAI's, etc. >are home personal computers :^) > >Besides Allison mentioned the IBM PC with ROM BASIC, and I've used a Zenith >Z248 (a 286) with a ROM Monitor that you can drop into, both of these are >definitly not developement machines. My NeXT slab had a ROM based monitor, >and the PowerMac I'm typing this on can be dropped into the debugger at any >time by hitting the proper key sequence. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Nov 1 18:03:32 1998 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt References: <067101be05e7$2dd6d1f0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> <363CF2CD.5FA2@swbell.net> Message-ID: <363CF6D4.DF5660DF@idirect.com> >Mitch Wright wrote: > So what are you personaly going to do with 30' of rip roaring PDP-11/44 > and diskdrives? Jerome Fine replies: If anyone has not been able to figure out the answer to that question, or with any of the other PDP-11/44 systems, I am looking for a TU-58 tape drive which I understand came as an external unit with this system. Does anyone have one that they are not using? I understand they were used for diagnostics and if the tapes and manuals are still available, they might still be useful. Otherwise, I have some old tapes I would like to read. On the other hand, I might also be able to locate a few spare DECTAPE II which were the tapes if anyone needs them. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine Year 2000 Solutions for the RT-11 Operating System and Applications (Sources not always required) From yowza at yowza.com Sun Nov 1 18:04:52 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: definition of personal computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > "Personal Computer" is such a worthless term; we should throw it out. It's an ambiguous term, but it's valuable in that it describes this thing that caused a revolution. Neither the term nor the revolution can be pinned down precisely, but I'm OK with a little ambiguity as long as we can reasonably agree on what things belong to what classes. There will always be exceptions, but I think the definition I gave earlier works pretty well. -- Doug From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Nov 1 18:10:52 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <19981102001053.5752.qmail@hotmail.com> I consider anything that was marketed as a personal computer a personal computer. I would not consider the PDP a personal computer if I had one because it's not a personal computer. If you used a sedan to haul around heavy things, would you call it a truck? >>operate. If I could find a SYS/360 or SYS370, or Sigma/7 or Sigma/9 or > >That's exactly how I've viewed it as well. When I told people that >my personal computer was a pdp-11/93 or a uVax system, they generally >balked at the idea, though. I've had to remind them that it is a >computer (that's never in question), and that I own it and use it. >Hence a *personal* computer... And although I didn't have one back >when the Imsai became available, I did get my first one (an 11/10) >in 1980. > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mew_jac at swbell.net Sun Nov 1 18:23:01 1998 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt References: Message-ID: <363CFB65.69E9@swbell.net> I agree, hunting the manuals and schematics could take awhile. The hardware seems to be around. Just need to snoop around for a large site deinstallation, could be a lot of these in the next few years. The sad part is in the late 80's and early 90's I put into the dumpster a bunch of this stuff. --Mitch Tony Duell wrote: > > > I was looking for somrthing more along the line of an 11/34 but you > > gott'ya take what comes your way. > > Yep... As I've said to a few people : "I'd not recomend a PDP11/45 as you > first -11, an 11/05 or something is a lot easier to start out with. But > _I_ started on an 11/45 because that's what I was offered". > > > I'm mostly looking for documenation now, which might take some time to > > track down. > > Well, although I've mananged to obtain a couple of shelf-fulls of PDP11 > docs and (especially) printsets, it wasn't that easy. I've spent a good > few years hunting for old manuals, geting and repairing 'scrap' boards, > etc. > > My first PDP11 (the 11/45) came with no peripherals at all. Not even a > DL11 console port. Oh, there was an RK11-C, but no RK05s to link to it. > I got the printsets but no user manuals, so I didn't have a clue as to > what the instruction set was. Oh, and there was no memory. I was given a > MUD card (I didn't know what it was called) but no backplane. First job > was to modify the only DD11 I had to take an MUD RAM card. > > It took me nearly a year to find a DL11 and some disk drives. In that > time I'd managed to borrow a DEC microprocessor handbook - the 11/23 > instruction set was near enough to let me write programs. And then I > obtained a few handbooks, a DZ11, a few more prints, etc. Finally I got a > disk unit, a couple of DL11s, some realtime I/O cards, etc. > > -tony From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Nov 1 18:21:48 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: CRT decay Message-ID: <19981102002149.11547.qmail@hotmail.com> In a computer lab at my school, there is an NEC Multisync 17+ monitor. When off, fingerprints are visible on the surface. I guess it has some kind of finish that got eroded by skin oil. Could this be similar? What is this CRT from again? >> > I've got an old CRT that is decaying along the glass edges. >> >> Are you _sure_. Glass is normally pretty stable, and if it was really >> decaying I would have expected the CRT to have imploded. There's about >> 1/2 a ton of force on the screen of even small CRTs. > >No, I'm not sure. When I first saw it, I thought mold was growing along >the edges, but closer examination showed that that "growth" was inside the >glass, and the patterns were somewhat crystaline. I'll let you know if >it spontaneously implodes. > >> However, there are CRTs that are made with a laminated glass faceplate - > >That's probably it. I saw beads along the edge, so it must be the plastic >that is crystalizing. I'll still let you know when it spontaneously >implodes, though :-) > >> No remaining phosphor? This is strange... What on earth is going on? > >It's possible that the phosphor was simply hidden by the now-opaque >plastic crystal. > >So, how do you detect these laminated CRTs, and can they be sealed to >prevent this type of decay? > >-- Doug > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Sun Nov 1 18:31:58 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: <19981102002149.11547.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > > > > > In a computer lab at my school, there is an NEC Multisync 17+ > monitor. When off, fingerprints are visible on the surface. I guess > it has some kind of finish that got eroded by skin oil. Could this be > similar? What is this CRT from again? It's a 30-year old CRT from a 30-year old computer. The surface is glass, AFAICT. And I hate it when people touch my screen to show me something and leave a fingerprint for me to remember them by. -- Doug From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 1 17:35:21 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981102001053.5752.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >I consider anything that was marketed as a personal computer a >personal computer. I would not consider the PDP a personal computer if >I had one because it's not a personal computer. If you used a sedan >to haul around heavy things, would you call it a truck? Then by your own definition, and lack of specifying a model of PDP, you'll have to consider a PDP a personal computer, as some were marketed that way. But seriously trying to catagorize such things is like trying to define when a computer stops being a Micro and starts being a Mini, or a Mini stops being a Mini and starts being a Mainframe. Personally the best Mini/Main answer I've heard is when you need special environmental considerations it's a Mainframe. Never have a good answer on the Micro/Mini one though. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dogas at leading.net Sun Nov 1 18:37:04 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: Computer cassettes Message-ID: <01be05f8$e98cce20$aec962cf@devlaptop> Hi. ] I live in Jacksonville, one of the two sites nationally of a Radio Shack Liquidation Center.... this weekend I picked up 40 new and sealed C-10 leaderless certified computer cassette tapes for .25 apiece.... Anybody nead a few? Mike: dogas@leading.net From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 1 18:42:30 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <065d01be05e1$58b32af0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> (hhacker@gte.net) References: <065d01be05e1$58b32af0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: <19981102004230.14429.qmail@brouhaha.com> > In the early to mid 70's, I was an operator of 360 and 370 computers, and > believe me, it is perfectly possible for a single operator to keep such > machines in operation. I've been an operator too, and it is certainly possible for one person to be an operator of such a machine. But where are you going to get spare parts for a 370 when it breaks? It's not like a PDP-11 where you can simply replace a 74S181 chip with one from your local surplus store. I submit that you have not even begun to consider the issues involved in operating big iron as a personal computer. I've put some effort into it, and I'm sure I haven't come anywhere close to encountering all of the pitfalls yet. If you can cite a single example of an individual having a piece of >20 year old big iron (i.e., a complete computer system that required a "computer room" environment) in working order and operational within the last year, I will concede your point. Several collector *own* big iron, but I have yet to hear of any *operating* it. AFAIK, even the Computer Museum Historical Collection is not attempting to operate any big iron; the closest I've heard of is an attempt to restore an IBM 1620 (which is only medium iron). Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 1 18:50:20 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:37:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981102000444.21307.qmail@hotmail.com> (maxeskin@hotmail.com) References: <19981102000444.21307.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <19981102005020.14480.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Max Eskin" wrote: > I mentioned that all Apple computers have debuggers/monitors. That's certainly not true. From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Sun Nov 1 18:51:09 1998 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: definition of personal computer Message-ID: <01be05fa$e1ecada0$f17d38cb@help-desk> -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, 2 November 1998 11:11 Subject: Re: definition of personal computer >That at least reduces the number of terms we have to argue about by one >(there's still "micro", "mini", "workstation", etc.) I have semantic difficulty occasionally when describing my Vax 6000 as a "mini-computer" Considering it weighs in at 300+kg and is taller than my wife, it's mini only in comparison to something truly gigantic. IBM 360's or the like. Cheers Geoff Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 1 17:55:30 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <363CF6D4.DF5660DF@idirect.com> References: <067101be05e7$2dd6d1f0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> <363CF2CD.5FA2@swbell.net> Message-ID: >If anyone has not been able to figure out the answer to that question, >or with any of the other PDP-11/44 systems, I am looking for a TU-58 >tape drive which I understand came as an external unit with this system. I know on mine, it's located in the same rack as the CPU and the RX02 drives. It's not external. They did make external ones, though I don't have one. >Does anyone have one that they are not using? I understand they were >used for diagnostics and if the tapes and manuals are still available, they >might still be useful. Otherwise, I have some old tapes I would like to >read. It's possible to run RT-11 off of them, which I believe is where the external drive came into play. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 1 18:58:45 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <363CF6D4.DF5660DF@idirect.com> (message from Jerome Fine on Sun, 01 Nov 1998 19:03:32 -0500) References: <067101be05e7$2dd6d1f0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> <363CF2CD.5FA2@swbell.net> <363CF6D4.DF5660DF@idirect.com> Message-ID: <19981102005845.14537.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jerome Fine wrote: > If anyone has not been able to figure out the answer to that question, > or with any of the other PDP-11/44 systems, I am looking for a TU-58 > tape drive which I understand came as an external unit with this system. No, they are normally an internal unit in the CPU rack. IMAO, the only thing they are useful for it reading TU58 media and transferring it to some more reasonable disk or tape. The TU58 actually is a serial peripheral; the 11/44 has a dedicated serial line to it. There is published C source code that can be run on another computer to emulate a TU58 drive. From hhacker at gte.net Sun Nov 1 19:03:18 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: What to do with an 11/44! Message-ID: <085b01be05fc$95372830$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Actually, the machine is less for my personal use as it is for posterity. My goal is the creation of a museum of such computers, so that our posterity will not soon forget the nature of computers in the 1970's, perhaps into the 60's. I doubt that I shall ever get a chance to obtain machines like the 7090, 1620, and 1401 (all IBM). Nor will I likely obtain ENIAC. Yet, there is still time to salvage and restore many mainframes, machines which will never again be graced with production runs, fresh Hollerith cards, etc. These first and second generation electronic digital computers are clearly antiques, and the processors of our day will soon join them in history. That is what a museum is all about. Remember, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it! William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Mitch Wright To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 3:44 PM Subject: Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt >So what are you personaly going to do with 30' of rip roaring PDP-11/44 >and diskdrives? > >--Mitch > From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 1 19:00:47 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981102001053.5752.qmail@hotmail.com> (maxeskin@hotmail.com) References: <19981102001053.5752.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <19981102010047.14559.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Max Eskin" wrote: > I consider anything that was marketed as a personal computer a > personal computer. I would not consider the PDP a personal computer if > I had one because it's not a personal computer. By your own criteria, the original PDP-8 *is* a personal computer. DEC specifically marketed it based on the it being small enough that someone could transport it in their automobile (specifically, a Volkswagen), and cheap enough that someone could afford it. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 19:05:27 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <199811020105.AA01113@world.std.com> < Sorry, I meant home personal computers. PDPs, IMSAIs, various < development systems don't count. Satisfied? < >SWTP 6800 < >ALTAIR-8800b (the front pannel is in a 1702 prom!) < >Godbout 8080/front pannel replacement (octal keypad!) < >Netronics Exploror 8085 < >CCS 2200 series s100 crate < >Heath H8 < >Micromint SB180 (z180) All of which are personal computers of that era and beyond! If you ment the IBM PC and clones you have to be a bit more specfic. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 19:05:33 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <199811020105.AA01312@world.std.com> < Besides Allison mentioned the IBM PC with ROM BASIC, and I've used a Zen < Z248 (a 286) with a ROM Monitor that you can drop into, both of these ar < definitly not developement machines. My NeXT slab had a ROM based monit I think the z100 also had one. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 19:05:40 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <199811020105.AA01433@world.std.com> < I think he means ROM Monitor, from personal experience I know it's nice < have a ROM monitor that you can drop into and exercise the Hardware if < don't have any boot media. < < Then again, why that would be helpful on a PC where you can get DOS with < even trying, I don't know why it would be helpful. Exactly! On a PC to run any code (even a rom debugger) enough resources have to be there to nearly boot it. besides for hardware debug there are POST and other codes. Of course if someone wanted a debugger in rom most PCs still socket the BIOS roms. it's a matter of codeing it up and adding the needed device interfaces. On the whole not that useful. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 19:05:53 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <199811020105.AA01702@world.std.com> < Well, not to put too fine a line on it, all modern PC's have a built-in < debugger. The Pentium has a built-in debug mode and brings the debug po < out on the pins. I don't know of any PC maker that includes a debug por has everyone forgotten POST codes already? All you need is a fairly cheap card to display them. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 19:06:07 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <199811020106.AA01885@world.std.com> < From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan) < < That's exactly how I've viewed it as well. When I told people that < my personal computer was a pdp-11/93 or a uVax system, they generally < balked at the idea, though. I've had to remind them that it is a < computer (that's never in question), and that I own it and use it. < Hence a *personal* computer... And although I didn't have one back What I called a "personal computer" In early 1975 it was an Altair8800. In 1976 I added a COSMAC ELF. In 1977 a SC/MP, Motorola 6800D1 were added. In 1978 A North*star Horizon was the mainstay s100 crate and a Technico 9900 starter board. In 1979 A Netronics explorer8085 was added to the collection. in 1980 I would add a TK80 SBC and a IMSAI IMP48. In 1981 a LSI-11 became mine. The idea of a personal computer for me is quite old and predates even the Altair. However, I would not own a "PC" (upper case denotes them IBM and clone things) of my own until 1991, even then it was an XT class clone (still have that too!)! Oh, FASWE applies with here... FASWE = First Aquired Stays With Me. Allison From yowza at yowza.com Sun Nov 1 19:13:34 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981102004230.14429.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 2 Nov 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > I submit that you have not even begun to consider the issues involved in > operating big iron as a personal computer. I've put some effort into it, > and I'm sure I haven't come anywhere close to encountering all of the > pitfalls yet. In order to reach god status in our little domain here, you must be able to repair anything that can go wrong with your machine using any resources that might be available. Basically, that means understanding your computer at every level, and being able to build a new one from scratch based on first principles. It's not easy, but it is possible, and I'd love to read the book(s) written by one or more of you gods that covers all the knowledge needed for god status. (I'm currently reading a very old book on transistors so I can learn to build my own transistors from scratch someday, BTW.) -- Doug From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Nov 1 19:21:13 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: definition of personal computer In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Nov 01, 1998 04:38:10 PM Message-ID: <199811020121.SAA23406@calico.litterbox.com> Personal computer: Any computer owned by a single individual rather than a corporation or government entity. Alternately any computer with a low enough aquisition and operation cost to BE owned by an individual. This fits this group best, since especially the mini and mainframe collectors have such animals as their "personal computers". The semantics become simple. "What is this cray 1 you have in the basement?" "It's my personal computer." The fact that they're also supers, mainframes, minis, or micros becomes irrelivant. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mew_jac at swbell.net Sun Nov 1 19:27:26 1998 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: What to do with an 11/44! References: <085b01be05fc$95372830$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: <363D0A7E.280D@swbell.net> Very good, I thought you were going to put it in your living room and turn it on. I got mine to study what they did right and what they got wrong. And I enjoy a learning curve of figuring out how things work. I pretty much came on the scene when everyone was dumping their PDP&VAX fot unix workstations. --Mitch Buck Savage wrote: > > Actually, the machine is less for my personal use as it is for posterity. > My > goal is the creation of a museum of such computers, so that our posterity > will not soon forget the nature of computers in the 1970's, perhaps into the > 60's. I doubt that I shall ever get a chance to obtain machines like the > 7090, > 1620, and 1401 (all IBM). Nor will I likely obtain ENIAC. Yet, there is > still > time to salvage and restore many mainframes, machines which will never > again be graced with production runs, fresh Hollerith cards, etc. These > first > and second generation electronic digital computers are clearly antiques, > and the processors of our day will soon join them in history. That is what > a museum is all about. Remember, those who forget the past are doomed > to repeat it! > > William R. Buckley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mitch Wright > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 3:44 PM > Subject: Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt > > >So what are you personaly going to do with 30' of rip roaring PDP-11/44 > >and diskdrives? > > > >--Mitch > > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Nov 1 19:19:43 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: Computer cassettes In-Reply-To: <01be05f8$e98cce20$aec962cf@devlaptop> from "Mike" at Nov 1, 98 07:37:04 pm Message-ID: <199811020119.RAA18505@saul5.u.washington.edu> > I live in Jacksonville, one of the two sites nationally of a Radio Shack > Liquidation Center.... this weekend I picked up 40 new and sealed C-10 > leaderless certified computer cassette tapes for .25 apiece.... Anybody > nead a few? It might be nice but I don't really have any excuse for needing them. :) However, can you tell me more about the liquidation center? Do they have any big items like computers? And do you know where the other location is? Maybe one of the ex-Radio Shack people should join in on this topic. -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Nov 1 19:34:56 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981102005020.14480.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 2, 98 00:50:20 am Message-ID: <199811020134.RAA14243@saul5.u.washington.edu> > "Max Eskin" wrote: > > I mentioned that all Apple computers have debuggers/monitors. > > That's certainly not true. You need to substantiate your claim. Which Apple computers don't have ROM debuggers or monitors? -- Derek From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 19:16:44 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981101212250.13215.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 1, 98 09:22:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1287 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/5aeed412/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 19:18:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <065d01be05e1$58b32af0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> from "Buck Savage" at Nov 1, 98 01:48:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 406 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/af05f47e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 19:11:41 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <199811011855.AA25447@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 1, 98 01:55:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1355 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/38d60d49/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Sun Nov 1 19:50:45 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <199811020105.AA01702@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > < Well, not to put too fine a line on it, all modern PC's have a built-in > < debugger. The Pentium has a built-in debug mode and brings the debug po > < out on the pins. I don't know of any PC maker that includes a debug por > > has everyone forgotten POST codes already? All you need is a fairly > cheap card to display them. Or a working speaker, in most cases. POST will only tell you what the BIOS maker wants to tell you, though. Using debug mode (aka ICE mode) from a debug port would allow you to diagnose at a much deeper level. If you couple that with a logic analyzer, you can diagnose just about any problem, of course, but the built-in debug capablity that the Pentium gives you was the best I had seen from any microprocessor last I checked. You could do a *very* cool front-panel on a modern PC. -- Doug From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Nov 1 19:54:38 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: ROM debuggers (was Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 1, 98 07:06:54 pm Message-ID: <199811020154.RAA20339@saul5.u.washington.edu> > OK, off the top of my head : > > Later PETs (the earliest ROMs had diagnostics instead) > Tatung Einstein (A reasonable Z-80 monitor in ROM, including disk sector > read/write). > Science of Cambridge MK14 > All the Intel SDKs (I would think - certainly the SDK-85 does) > Intellec MCS8i (both a real frontpanel _and_ a ROM monitor...) > Intel MDS800 > PDP11/03, 11/23, 11/73, etc. > SGS Nanocomputer > Heathkit H8, H88, H89, etc (and a lot of other Heath/Zenith systems) > HP-48SX (not the GX, alas). There's a little hex editor in the ROM which > you get to by an undocumented key combination. > Sage II (and I assume Sage IV) > MPF-88 (and I assume other MicroProfessors) The Memorex-Telex MTX-500 series has a (very?) good debugger in ROM. I think the debugger has its own chunk of RAM in a separate address space too. Do any of the other examples have this? One of the examples you mentioned is unfortunately not useful to the hobbyist user (even if the user has experience). The HP-48S and SX hex editor is only a gimmick without a very detailed description of the internal structures of the system. (And being in a FORTH-like language on a 4-bit processor, the internal structures are _vital_. There are lots of magic addresses at other special addresses in memory. The 4-bit architecture is *little-endian* so you have to reverse each hex digit of the addresses too.) It's not very easy to use even if you do have that information. Besides, the editor is a pain to use. A raw dump of nibbles, only a line of them, with no address or context information, and an *invisible* cursor? Realistically I think it was designed for factory testing. Other examples may fit in the same category. Many Macintoshes have a debugger in ROM which is so low-level that it's a step back from the Apple ][ monitor in functionality. Fortunately Apple made up for that by acquiring MACSBUG from Motorola and adding Mac-specific features. MACSBUG is so powerful that you can do _interesting_ things like removing copy protection (but you still need to be pretty expert on the Mac). It's free from Apple. Unfortunately it's not in ROM. I'm really hijacking the topic to ask about _useful_ debuggers. Allison thinks debuggers are a thing of the past. I disagree -- I think they can be very useful even on a cutting-edge system. Or perhaps my ideal useful debugger can be very useful on my ideal cutting-edge system. :) Unfortunately their usefulness depends on the software they're debugging. Perhaps Allison was making her point because Windows is such a mess and is so undocumented. Of course writing a useful debugger was difficult in 1980 and is even more difficult now. (No, I don't know how. No, I'm not sure what's required for a debugger to be useful.) -- Derek From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 1 19:58:19 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: ROM debuggers (was Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt) In-Reply-To: <199811020134.RAA14243@saul5.u.washington.edu> (dpeschel@u.washington.edu) References: <199811020134.RAA14243@saul5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19981102015819.14955.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Max Eskin" wrote: > I mentioned that all Apple computers have debuggers/monitors. I wrote: > That's certainly not true. "D. Peschel" wrote: > You need to substantiate your claim. Why is my claim (some X don't have Y) more in need of substantiation than a "universal" claim (all X have Y)? > Which Apple computers don't have ROM debuggers or monitors? Did you even spend 30 seconds thinking about the question before you gave up and asked me? There have been many; they outnumber the models that *DO* have a ROM debugger. The ones that fall within the charter of this group (introduced before November 1, 1988) are: Macintosh Macintosh 512K Macintosh 512Ke Macintosh 512K/800 Macintosh Plus Macintosh SE Macintosh SE/FDHD Macintosh II Macintosh IIx Macintosh IIcx (maybe, not sure of exact intro date) And perhaps I've missed some. From roblwill at usaor.net Sun Nov 1 20:07:40 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa and Apple IIC LCD Display Message-ID: <199811020209.VAA26828@gate.usaor.net> You know, it may have been better if this stuff was offered BEFORE it was put on ePay. What's the sense of 'offering' it to everyone on the list when they have to go through ePay anyway? All this basically is is an advertisement. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Greg Mast > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: FA: Apple Lisa and Apple IIC LCD Display > Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 4:24 PM > > I was a member of this list for quite a while but the mail load got to > be too much for my school account. > > I have placed an Apple Lisa on the eBay auction today. I'm selling it > for a friend. The bidding ends on Sunday the 8th of November. It has a > noisy drive and the monitor doesn't come on. The guy selling it doesn't > want to put any work into it so it's sold as-is. > > I posted some pictures at my page: > http://www.calpoly.edu/~gmast/sfs/lisa/lisa.html > > I think this system will go for a good price. It will sell regardless. > If this post offends anyone, I apologize but I know some people here > might want one of these for their collection and this might be a good > opportunity. > > For more info, check out the auction listing at: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=39295177 > > and check out the pictures at the link above. > > I also listed one of those LCD displays for the Apple IIc. It's in great > shape. The auction is at: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=39285574 > > The bidding must take place through the auction now that I've listed > them. > > Bidding is free but you must register with the auction. > > Thanks, > > Greg From marvin at rain.org Sun Nov 1 20:11:29 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt References: Message-ID: <363D14D1.26912BF1@rain.org> Tony Duell wrote: > > > I was looking for somrthing more along the line of an 11/34 but you > > gott'ya take what comes your way. > > Yep... As I've said to a few people : "I'd not recomend a PDP11/45 as you > first -11, an 11/05 or something is a lot easier to start out with. But > _I_ started on an 11/45 because that's what I was offered". I also started out learning computer hardware on the PDP 11/45 at Maynard. The only thing hard about the class was trying to figure out what those hyroglyphics were that described somehow the internal workings of the thing :). Hardware repair was pretty much limited to putting tape on one of the board gold fingers so it didn't make proper contact when the board was reinstalled. From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Nov 1 20:11:45 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <19981102021145.16966.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, I know all Apple ][s had monitors, and I haven't seen a mac that doesn't have a debugger. Not sure about the Apple I and /// >"Max Eskin" wrote: >> I mentioned that all Apple computers have debuggers/monitors. > >That's certainly not true. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Nov 1 20:14:37 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <19981102021438.23101.qmail@hotmail.com> That's right. It's a personal computer, but not because someone has it in their house. I left out the model number on 'PDP' because I'm not familiar with them, but several said that their PDP-11/?? were personal computers just because they had it in their house. >> I consider anything that was marketed as a personal computer a >> personal computer. I would not consider the PDP a personal computer if >> I had one because it's not a personal computer. > >By your own criteria, the original PDP-8 *is* a personal computer. DEC >specifically marketed it based on the it being small enough that someone >could transport it in their automobile (specifically, a Volkswagen), and >cheap enough that someone could afford it. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Nov 1 20:16:33 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <19981102021633.12158.qmail@hotmail.com> But if there's an error, isn't the post code displayed (if the display works)? >< Well, not to put too fine a line on it, all modern PC's have a built-in >< debugger. The Pentium has a built-in debug mode and brings the debug po >< out on the pins. I don't know of any PC maker that includes a debug por > >has everyone forgotten POST codes already? All you need is a fairly >cheap card to display them. > >Allison > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From hhacker at gte.net Sun Nov 1 20:35:32 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: definition of personal computer Message-ID: <088a01be0609$7735cf00$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Right on! -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 5:19 PM Subject: Re: definition of personal computer >Personal computer: Any computer owned by a single individual rather than a >corporation or government entity. Alternately any computer with a low enough >aquisition and operation cost to BE owned by an individual. This fits this >group best, since especially the mini and mainframe collectors >have such animals as their "personal computers". > >The semantics become simple. >"What is this cray 1 you have in the basement?" >"It's my personal computer." > >The fact that they're also supers, mainframes, minis, or micros becomes >irrelivant. > >:) > > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? >----------------------------------------------------------------------- From gram at cnct.com Sun Nov 1 20:36:53 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: Computer cassettes References: <199811020119.RAA18505@saul5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <363D1AC5.C68B9B24@cnct.com> D. Peschel wrote: > > > I live in Jacksonville, one of the two sites nationally of a Radio Shack > > Liquidation Center.... this weekend I picked up 40 new and sealed C-10 > > leaderless certified computer cassette tapes for .25 apiece.... Anybody > > nead a few? > > It might be nice but I don't really have any excuse for needing them. :) > > However, can you tell me more about the liquidation center? Do they have any > big items like computers? And do you know where the other location is? > > Maybe one of the ex-Radio Shack people should join in on this topic. More than five years with the company (starting 18 years ago tomorrow now that I think of it), never heard of such centers. Must be since my time. Why Jacksonville? Seems to me that closer to Fort Worth would have been more likely. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 20:35:00 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: CRT decay Message-ID: <199811020235.AA05223@world.std.com> < There shoudln't be any extra hazard from firing electrons at the screen, < but I am still _very_ curious as to what's happening. I've used 40 or 50 < year old CRTs with no problems, you see. I have two O'scope crts (3BP1 and a 2AP1) that are still good (they were purchased as military surplus when I was a teen for homebrew use) and neither were made much later than 1958 (maybe much older!). I know they work as the scopes I built with them still operate! The glass doesn't decay. If the phosphor is peeling it may be that someone has vented the tube to remove the implosion hazard. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 20:35:07 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: Repair strategy (was Re: eBay strikes again...) Message-ID: <199811020235.AA05328@world.std.com> < But whatever. It still doesn't explain why VCRs are always repaired to < component level (and I've worked on VCRs with PQFP chips, multilayer < boards, etc in them) and computers almost never are. Sure it may make < sense _sometimes_ to change the module. But not always. Here being the USA a VCR is $79 to $499, at 499 you repair, at 79 unless the problem is trivial it's a junker. NOTE: I'd used the term cost of repair exceeds value of unit before. The average motherboard for 386 and later machines it's unlikely to find 1488/9s on it or the such. Then again fixing a damaged connector or fried HCT244 may make sense. but if it's more than that, pull all the socketed stuff and trash it as I can get used or new before I'll find a replacement for the 84pin PQFP. I've been through the exercize with a 386/486 clone board that the external cache failed on. All I could do with it was disable the external cache, pull the cache rams (they were all good) as it as it was apparently one of the 84pin whatevers that developed a singular failure. At the time of the failure the cost for a new 486 board sans cpu was 69$ with twice the cache ram I had installed. I was able to keep it going at reduced performance but repair was not possible unless I found a similar clone and did a chip swap. IE: Cost of repair... Eventually the board was torched to remove all the usable components like the SIP resistors, clock cans, connectors and the like. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 20:35:14 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <199811020235.AA05398@world.std.com> < That is also a nice ability. But, BASIC isn't present in 386+ PCs. < Does anyone know if there is some kind of commercial solution to this? It's called POST, the last time I bought a POST board it was 59$ and that was 3 years ago. it displays a two digit code that points to the failed subsystem. IBM systems also displayed a code to the CRT (if working) that also told the problem. Generally I've troubleshot PCs with nothing more than a VOM. Frequently less. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 20:35:21 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <199811020235.AA05456@world.std.com> < personal computer. I would not consider the PDP a personal computer if < I had one because it's not a personal computer. If you used a sedan But, there were versions of the PDP-11 that were marketed as personal computers. I can name not less than three different offering that were desktop, personal, single user computers. < to haul around heavy things, would you call it a truck? No but it was never anything else nor could it be other than a taxi! The problem is the computers were never called trucks or sedans. Small computers that fit on a desk and are generally single user and affordable by the then current standard were "personal computers". Oh, a PC with an eithernet connection to a host is a WORKSTATION and that is a valid use of the term. The very flexibility and usefulness of small (desktop or deskside) computers lent them to many different descriptions, names and uses most overlaping. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 20:35:28 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <199811020235.AA05501@world.std.com> < >or with any of the other PDP-11/44 systems, I am looking for a TU-58 < >tape drive which I understand came as an external unit with this system < < I know on mine, it's located in the same rack as the CPU and the RX02 < drives. It's not external. They did make external ones, though I don' < have one. It was internal and primary use was diagnostis as it was on a serial line making it the easiest thing to bring up. Also the 11/44 interface was slow for some reason and the TU58 was limited to 4800 baud or the 44 would lose data. < >Does anyone have one that they are not using? I understand they were < >used for diagnostics and if the tapes and manuals are still available, < >might still be useful. Otherwise, I have some old tapes I would like t < >read. I have several but I do use them. I can read tape and transfer to RX01/2. This is assumeing the tapes are still good (binder isn't flaking). < It's possible to run RT-11 off of them, which I believe is where the < external drive came into play. Yes, I have an 11/23 with an external TU58 that runs RT11. The one internal to the 44 could also run RT if memory serves. RT11/TU58 expects a DL compatable serial line to use the DD driver. From hhacker at gte.net Sun Nov 1 20:39:19 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <089501be0609$ffc20410$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Wrong. I have forgotten the address to poke (or is it peek - some such action) which causes the AppleII (original, +, and E) to enter the system monitor software. Therein it is easily possible to manipulate all manner of system features and memory contents. If you need the exact information thus, I shall extract it from the manuals, etc that remain in my possession. I own a II+ and a II E, since it is only upon such machines that I may execute the Apple Worm (as published in the May 1985 issue of Scientific American, Computer Recreations column) which I wrote so many years ago. William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: D. Peschel To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 5:38 PM Subject: Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt >> "Max Eskin" wrote: >> > I mentioned that all Apple computers have debuggers/monitors. >> >> That's certainly not true. > >You need to substantiate your claim. Which Apple computers don't have ROM >debuggers or monitors? > >-- Derek > > > From hhacker at gte.net Sun Nov 1 20:43:56 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: Today has been a good day for communication. Message-ID: <08b301be060a$a3ecb030$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Just wanted to say thank you to all. Today has been especially active, and it is good to see that much participation. William R. Buckley From roblwill at usaor.net Sun Nov 1 20:40:36 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: Computer cassettes Message-ID: <199811020242.VAA03131@gate.usaor.net> Do they have any old laptop parts? Such as a HardDrive controller for a 1400HD? I know the 1400 isn't quite on-topic (1989), but I use it to keep all the records for my other (over 10-yrs old) computers on. Now the HD controller went, and I can't open anything (can't even boot the computer). Does that make it on topic? ThAnX, -Jason (making a desperate attempt to stay OT) *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Mike > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Computer cassettes > Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 7:37 PM > > Hi. > ] > I live in Jacksonville, one of the two sites nationally of a Radio Shack > Liquidation Center.... this weekend I picked up 40 new and sealed C-10 > leaderless certified computer cassette tapes for .25 apiece.... Anybody > nead a few? > > Mike: dogas@leading.net > From mew_jac at swbell.net Sun Nov 1 20:53:15 1998 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt References: Message-ID: <363D1E9B.6BFD@swbell.net> Thats right, and from the description of the prompt commands you gave me and a short procomm script I can boot the 11/44 with what ever I want. The cross development tools need some work though. If you don't get peek, poke and jump the next step is a rom emulator or burning your own roms. Both of which have drawbacks. -- Mitch > > One trivial advantage of having a monitor (and not just a disk bootstrap) > in ROM for classic computers is that even if the boot disk is lost, and > there's no chance of getting another, there's still a way to make the > machine do _something_. > > -tony From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Nov 1 20:54:29 1998 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt References: <067101be05e7$2dd6d1f0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> <363CF2CD.5FA2@swbell.net> Message-ID: <363D1EE5.3910FA4@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >If anyone has not been able to figure out the answer to that question, > >or with any of the other PDP-11/44 systems, I am looking for a TU-58 > >tape drive which I understand came as an external unit with this system. > I know on mine, it's located in the same rack as the CPU and the RX02 > drives. It's not external. They did make external ones, though I don't > have one. Jerome Fine replies: I had not realized that the PDP-11/44 had both internal and external TU-58 drives. I was able to obtain an external model from an old PDP-11/44 some time ago when I needed to replace the internal one from a VT103 that had died - the TU-58, not the VT103 part. When I got the TU-58, both the rollers were worn out and had to be replaced. Finally, I was able to get the external unit to work. > >Does anyone have one that they are not using? I understand they were > >used for diagnostics and if the tapes and manuals are still available, they > >might still be useful. Otherwise, I have some old tapes I would like to > >read. > It's possible to run RT-11 off of them, which I believe is where the > external drive came into play. > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | Yes, that is true. The problem is that I am afraid that the TU-58 I have is showing signs of problems and I wanted to have a spare if that was possible. Do anyone have a spare external TU-58 available? I don't likely have much use for the TU-58 more than once or twice a year, but I can't predict when it might happen again. As far as RT-11 is concerned, I actually saw RT-11 run on the TU-58, but at the time, the TU-58 was connected to a PC running an emulator under W95. One of the versions of the RT-11 Operating System I ran was from 1978 and was V3.0B of RT-11, or so the banner said when it was booted. Quite a thrill, actually. But, then the other version of RT-11 was V5.4G which had been patched to make it Year 2000 compatible. So, there was an actual 20 year old tape drive that looks like a disk drive under RT-11 that was able to boot both a 20 year old version of the RT-11 Operating System and a 10 year old version of the RT-11 Operating System (well - next month the OS will be 10 years old) which is now able to run for another 100 years until 31-Dec-2099 since the patches were applied to V5.4G to make that OS Y2K. Of course, the real PDP-11 hardware, which is also 20 years old, also still runs both versions of the RT-11 Operating System. Quite a difference between PC hardware and OSs which seem to be so incompatible after only 10 years at the most and often after only 5 years. The only question I am thinking about is whether there will still be runnable PDP-11 hardware for another 100 years. Or as an alternative or fallback, will there be hardware that can run an emulator for another 100 years? From what I have seen, I am more concerned about being able to use an emulator in fallback mode for even as long as real PDP-11 hardware still runs. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine Year 2000 Solutions for RT-11 Operating Systems and Applications (Sources not always required) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 20:22:36 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981102001053.5752.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Nov 1, 98 04:10:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 813 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/fb76e16e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 20:29:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Nov 1, 98 06:31:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/c6372265/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 20:08:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: A record? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Nov 1, 98 03:45:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2038 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/47ccc360/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 20:38:43 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <199811020105.AA01702@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 1, 98 08:05:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1549 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/272015fd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 20:12:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981101235932.2381.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Nov 1, 98 03:59:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 662 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/5745ea52/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 20:17:15 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <363CF6B1.51A@swbell.net> from "Mitch Wright" at Nov 1, 98 06:02:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 578 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/3a820397/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 20:45:29 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Nov 1, 98 07:13:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1557 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/09b8c9c3/attachment.ksh From dogas at leading.net Sun Nov 1 21:01:05 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: Computer cassettes Message-ID: <01be060d$0870bc20$aec962cf@devlaptop> >Do they have any old laptop parts? Such as a HardDrive controller for a >1400HD? > i'll check the next time I'm there (in a few days...) I'll let you know... - Mike: dogas@leading.net From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Nov 1 21:01:34 1998 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt References: <067101be05e7$2dd6d1f0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> <363CF2CD.5FA2@swbell.net> <363CF6D4.DF5660DF@idirect.com> <19981102005845.14537.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <363D208E.41E56EB2@idirect.com> >Eric Smith wrote: > Jerome Fine wrote: > > If anyone has not been able to figure out the answer to that question, > > or with any of the other PDP-11/44 systems, I am looking for a TU-58 > > tape drive which I understand came as an external unit with this system. > No, they are normally an internal unit in the CPU rack. Jerome Fine replies: I had not realized that the TU-58 was normally an internal unit. The one I picked up some years ago was an external unit. Perhaps it came from a VAX 750 rather than a PDP-11/44 which is what I thought I had remembered. > IMAO, the only thing they are useful for it reading TU58 media and > transferring it to some more reasonable disk or tape. Yes, I agree. But every so often, I am asked to read or write one. > The TU58 actually is a serial peripheral; the 11/44 has a dedicated serial > line to it. There is published C source code that can be run on another > computer to emulate a TU58 drive. Any idea of where that "C" source code is? It might be necessary to replace the TU-58. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine Year 2000 Solutions for RT-11 Operating Systems and Applications (Sources not always required) From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Nov 1 21:06:59 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: ROM debuggers (was Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt) In-Reply-To: <19981102015819.14955.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 2, 98 01:58:19 am Message-ID: <199811020307.TAA04522@saul9.u.washington.edu> > "Max Eskin" wrote: > > I mentioned that all Apple computers have debuggers/monitors. > > I wrote: > > That's certainly not true. > > "D. Peschel" wrote: > > You need to substantiate your claim. > Why is my claim (some X don't have Y) more in need of substantiation than a > "universal" claim (all X have Y)? 1. Combination and degree. If one person claims that all X have Y, and then you claim that not all X have Y (= no X have Y (which we agree is false in this case) or some X don't have Y (which is in dispute)) immediately afterward without giving evidence, that doesn't have the same effect as making your claim first. Also, your claim is totally opposite from the previous claim (that's what I meant by "degree"). So if you want me to believe you, sub- stantiation is nice. Also, you wrote "certainly". That just makes a naked claim even less appealing to me. 2. Prejudice. I read your argument and wanted to counter it right away. ("Hmph! Is he thinking that old Macs don't have ROM debuggers? That's not true in my experience. Is he thinking that new Macs don't have ROM debuggers? That's also not true -- I *know* the iMac has Open Firmware, for example.") 3. Proving your claim. Unless you've disassembled the ROMs, you don't *know* there isn't a debugger in there. If I claim there *is*, I may be able to show it to you easily. > > Which Apple computers don't have ROM debuggers or monitors? > > Did you even spend 30 seconds thinking about the question before you gave > up and asked me? Yes. I asked you because of reason 4: I think you're at least partially wrong. > There have been many; they outnumber the models that *DO* have a ROM debugger. This I doubt. You could be right (especially in the case of the Performas) which I will admit if it's true. > The ones that fall within the charter of this group (introduced before > November 1, 1988) are: > > Macintosh > Macintosh 512K > Macintosh 512Ke > Macintosh 512K/800 > Macintosh Plus > Macintosh SE > Macintosh SE/FDHD > Macintosh II > Macintosh IIx > Macintosh IIcx (maybe, not sure of exact intro date) No. Many of the older models had a plastic switch that snapped into the ventilation slots; it would reset the machine or bring up a debugger. I vaguely remember using the SE's debugger to look at a picture of the development team that was hidden in ROM. And as it turns out, Apple has a Tech Note (#1136) on the subject. (I vaguely remembered it before reading your post; afterward I went and looked it up. So I'm not trying to be *too* unkind or to have all the evidence beforehand and bait you.) It says: About MicroBug MicroBug was first introduced with the Mac Plus and has been a standard component in the ROM of all Mac OS computers since then. MicroBug is invoked when the system takes a Non-Maskable Interrupt (NMI) and there is no other debugger (e.g., MacsBug) installed. MicroBug is not present on the Macintosh 128, Macintosh 512, and Macintosh XL computers. So you're right about the 128, 512, and XL, but wrong about the Plus, SE, II, IIx, and IIcx. I just saw the debugger on my 7100/66 the other day when I hit Cmd-Shift-Power instead of Cmd-Ctrl-Power. I doubt it's been updated to handle the PPC. I know many newer machines have Open Firmware (hold down Cmd-Opt-O-F when turning on -- the letter O, not zero) which could be used for debugging, if you're evil and know FORTH. :) I'm not going to reboot my machine while I'm writing this message! So I could be wrong but I doubt it. -- Derek From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Nov 1 21:15:57 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:00 2005 Subject: A record? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > A couple of hints for anyone else mad enough to move such machines.. > > 1) PCBs are suprisingly heavy, or at least a full set for a CPU or > something is. Pull the boards and carry them separately. The CPU wasn't bad between two people. > 2) Slide rails are also heavy. When you've taken all the units out of the > rack it's worth unscrewing the rails/cabinet fans/power distribution > system, etc. Makes the rack a lot lighter. The racks weren't bad between two people with the rails and the lower power distribution modules installed. > OK, separating the 11/45 power supplies is not that easy, but here goes > (in case you ever have to do it). <...> > Now unscrew the fan mounting screws on the 3 fans over the regulators. > The fans come out downwards into the space where the regulators go. > Unplug the 115V power wires (red and white) from the fans. Remove the > fans, pull the wiring out of the PSU. This is where we were unsure. We didn't want to go through the bother of unscrewing all the fans (and it was about to start raining again at any moment...we were working under a tarp) and based on how everything else was interconnected, we didn't want to find out that there would STILL be something keeping us from separating the two supplies, so we just bit the bullet and carried them up together. > Unscrew the hour clock fixings and the PSU cableform bracket from the > cabinet. Remove the cableform. See, I knew there would be something else. Whoever designed this was a schmuck. It could have been made way more modular. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 21:07:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: ROM debuggers (was Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt) In-Reply-To: <199811020154.RAA20339@saul5.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Nov 1, 98 05:54:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1208 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/143c4db1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 21:09:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <363D14D1.26912BF1@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Nov 1, 98 06:11:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 762 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/040cdb3f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 21:12:40 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: <199811020235.AA05223@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 1, 98 09:35:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 946 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/66c37d94/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 21:16:49 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <199811020235.AA05501@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 1, 98 09:35:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 883 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/d2c6984a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 21:18:23 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <363D1E9B.6BFD@swbell.net> from "Mitch Wright" at Nov 1, 98 08:53:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 313 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/34191a0f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 21:25:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: A record? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Nov 1, 98 07:15:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 728 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/fb0837ff/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 1 21:26:30 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: definition of personal computer In-Reply-To: <199811020121.SAA23406@calico.litterbox.com> (message from Jim Strickland on Sun, 1 Nov 1998 18:21:13 -0700 (MST)) References: <199811020121.SAA23406@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <19981102032630.15573.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jim Strickland wrote: > The semantics become simple. > "What is this cray 1 you have in the basement?" > "It's my personal computer." > > The fact that they're also supers, mainframes, minis, or micros becomes > irrelivant. But the fact that it is entirely non-functional (and probably always will be) is relevant. If you have a Cray 1 in the basement, it isn't a personal computer. It's a big piece of scrap metal that happens to be of historical interest. Scott and I have a PDP-10 in his garage, but it is NOT a personal computer. Maybe someday it will be. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 1 21:30:55 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <089501be0609$ffc20410$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> (hhacker@gte.net) References: <089501be0609$ffc20410$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: <19981102033055.15624.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Buck Savage" wrote: > Wrong. > > I have forgotten the address to poke (or is it peek - some such action) > which > causes the AppleII (original, +, and E) to enter the system monitor > software. It's "CALL -151". Of course, on an original Apple ][, you didn't have to do anything other than power it on. But who are you asserting is wrong? Max wrote that all Apple computers have debuggers/monitors. The Apple ][ family does. But that doesn't prove that "all Apple computers" do. 'Some X has Y' does not prove that 'All X have Y'. From mew_jac at swbell.net Sun Nov 1 21:58:55 1998 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt References: Message-ID: <363D2DFF.18A5@swbell.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > > I also started out learning computer hardware on the PDP 11/45 at Maynard. > > The only thing hard about the class was trying to figure out what those > > You went to a class? I had the machine, the printsets and a logic probe. > And no list like this one to ask for help when I got confused... > > > hyroglyphics were that described somehow the internal workings of the thing > > :). Hardware repair was pretty much limited to putting tape on one of the > > board gold fingers so it didn't make proper contact when the board was > > reinstalled. > > Eh? I can understand why that might introduce a 'deliberate fault' which > you'd have to find, but I can't think of a diagnostic technique where > isolating odd pins of the 11/45 CPU modules would be that useful. > Used all the time in debugging and diagnostic of new systems and if I told you the technique Compaq would kill ME. --Mitch > > > > -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 1 21:50:24 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: ROM debuggers (was Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt) In-Reply-To: <199811020307.TAA04522@saul9.u.washington.edu> (dpeschel@u.washington.edu) References: <199811020307.TAA04522@saul9.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19981102035024.15724.qmail@brouhaha.com> "D. Peschel" wrote: > Also, your claim is totally opposite from the previous claim > (that's what I meant by "degree"). No. Totally opposite and equal in degree from the original claim that all Apple computers have a ROM debugger would be the claim that no Apple computers have a ROM debugger (or equivalently, all Apple computers do not have a ROM debugger). Both are universal claims. The claim that some X have Y is a much weaker claim, not at all of the same degree. It does not assert any common property for the entire class X. > No. Many of the older models had a plastic switch that snapped into the > ventilation slots; it would reset the machine or bring up a debugger. Which has nothing to do with whether the machine has a ROM-based debugger. > So you're right about the 128, 512, and XL, but wrong about the Plus, SE, II, > IIx, and IIcx. I'll concede your point on the latter machines. However, I only needed one counterexample to prove my assertion. I didn't say anything about the XL. Actually, *you* are wrong about the XL; I deliberately omitted the Lisa, Lisa 2, Lisa 2/5, Lisa 2/10, and Macintosh XL because they do have a ROM-based debugger. I've used it a lot lately. > I know many newer machines have Open Firmware (hold down Cmd-Opt-O-F when > turning on -- the letter O, not zero) which could be used for debugging, if > you're evil and know FORTH. :) Which is one reason why I didn't mention them. The others being: 1. I stated that I was only listing machines relevant to the list charter. 2. It is not clear that FORTH can be considered a debugger/monitor, any more than BASIC can. From mew_jac at swbell.net Sun Nov 1 22:02:29 1998 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt References: Message-ID: <363D2ED5.2C60@swbell.net> The 11/44 I have has it (TU58) under the CPU cage. Two slots labled "0" & "1". --Mitch Tony Duell wrote: > > [11/44 and TU58] > > > It was internal and primary use was diagnostis as it was on a serial > > line making it the easiest thing to bring up. > > That depends on the 11/44 configuration. The TU58 was not mounted inside > the CPU vox like on a VAX11/730. One standard configuration put the CPU > on top of a half-height rack with a TU58 below it. But you could also get > the CPU box on its own to stick in an H960 6' rack. And then the TU58 > might be rack mounted separately, it might be a table-top unit, it might > not even exist. > > > Yes, I have an 11/23 with an external TU58 that runs RT11. The one > > internal to the 44 could also run RT if memory serves. RT11/TU58 expects > > a DL compatable serial line to use the DD driver. > > The 11/44 TU58 interface basically emulates a second DL line (the console > is the other DL line of course), and AFAIK you can run RT11 from it. > > > > > > > -tony From dogas at leading.net Sun Nov 1 21:52:37 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <01be0614$3b65ea40$aec962cf@devlaptop> >'Some X has Y' does not prove that 'All X have Y'. Not to mention the Ys that you cant get to from any X.... *momentary Godel possesion* I couldnt resist. My apologies. - Mike: dogas@leading.net From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Nov 1 21:40:59 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: definition of personal computer In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Sun, 1 Nov 1998 15:36:56 -0800 (PST) References: Message-ID: <199811020341.TAA04536@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > "Personal Computer" is such a worthless term; we should throw it out. > Because even the timeshare computers could be used "personally" if someone > hacked in and killed all the other users' processes. :WARN @;BACKUP STARTING IN 5 MINUTES Hacked in? I'll have you know I had full authority to abort their sessions. I was the operator, after all, and we had a scheduled time for the backup. Same time every night and I gave them 20 minutes notice (and again at 15, 10, 5, 1, and 0). It wasn't my problem if they didn't want to stick around 'til I was willing to let them log on again. And if I may say so, an HP3000 Series III made a damn fine personal computer. -Frank McConnell From mew_jac at swbell.net Sun Nov 1 22:14:34 1998 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt References: Message-ID: <363D31AA.59CA@swbell.net> Absolutely, I can't imagine doing this on an 11/44 with out the documentation. I did this very thing with a bunch of corvus concept boards about 10 years ago. Decoded (coded ?) the 68k peripheral chip CS lines with a latch, the 68k will loop through its address space it you ground DTACK. Brings up another topic: Anybody got a Corvus Concept? --Mitch Tony Duell wrote: > > > If you don't get peek, poke and jump the next step is a rom emulator or > > burning your own roms. Both of which have drawbacks. > > Yes, but you need to know a _lot_ more about the hardware to think of > replacing the boot ROMs than you need to simply write a little program to > run under a ROM monitor. > > -tony From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 22:12:52 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <199811020412.AA05956@world.std.com> < Yes, that is true. The problem is that I am afraid that the TU-58 I < have is showing signs of problems and I wanted to have a spare < if that was possible. Do anyone have a spare external TU-58 < available? I don't likely have much use for the TU-58 more < than once or twice a year, but I can't predict when it might happen < again. TU58s have two problems, dirty heads and drive roller turning to gum. The first is a cleaning problem. The second is age related. I have a fix for the later. Basically it involoves removing the drive hub, scraping the gunk off it and using PVC or rubber tubing to replace the rubber part. < As far as RT-11 is concerned, I actually saw RT-11 run on the TU-58, < but at the time, the TU-58 was connected to a PC running an Running the real thing is more fun. < But, then the other version of RT-11 was V5.4G which had been < patched to make it Year 2000 compatible. So, there was an < actual 20 year old tape drive that looks like a disk drive under RT being quite old is an enigma in that it keeps going! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 22:12:59 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <199811020412.AA06011@world.std.com> < It's possible to make transistors with not too complex equipment It's trivial. All you needs is some crystal pure germainium and two gold wires. The wires will be placed ajacent to each other without touching and in contact with the chunk of germainium. To that apply a pulse of current to each wire to cause localized heating and hence contact doping. Test your transistor. You will find it noisy, leaky, slow and exactly the same as the Bell labs proto! congrats, you have succeeded. You can now continue on to grown junction, alloy, diffused and then silicon based devices. Junction FETs will come later after you have figured how to get planar diffusion technology. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 22:13:05 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <199811020413.AA06077@world.std.com> < I had not realized that the TU-58 was normally an internal unit. The < one I picked up some years ago was an external unit. Perhaps it came < from a VAX 750 rather than a PDP-11/44 which is what I thought < I had remembered. it was available both ways. It was used in the 11/44, PDT-11/130, VAX 11/730 and 750s as internal. The unit was also available as external. < Any idea of where that "C" source code is? It might be necessary to < replace the TU-58. I forget where but it's flakey code. It was written to run on a unix box. The file I have is TU58-emu.zip. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 22:13:12 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <199811020413.AA06142@world.std.com> < > board gold fingers so it didn't make proper contact when the board wa < > reinstalled. < < Eh? I can understand why that might introduce a 'deliberate fault' which < you'd have to find, but I can't think of a diagnostic technique where < isolating odd pins of the 11/45 CPU modules would be that useful. It wasn't a repair procedure... it was a call it broken and try to find/fix it class exercise. Sometimes when a bad board was a available they would be used. Allison From yowza at yowza.com Sun Nov 1 22:14:49 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > What's the machine? Just in case somebody knows for sure what the CRT is > and how it was made. It's an IMLAC PDS-1. It's perhaps the coolest computer on the planet, but it needs a little work. I pulled it out of a garage on Saturday where it had been sitting for a very long time underneath a dryer vent. The hot moist air greatly accelerated the aging process of the display. The computer itself is built into a desk, and the desktop shielded the guts from the dryer vent, so the computer looks like it's in pretty good shape. I'll try to get some pics up on the web, both for the purpose of showing the damage and for bragging. According to the previous owner, it was basically a PDP-1 clone (capable of running SPACEWAR!). According to another source, it might be a PDP-8 clone: << The Imlac was a minicomputer (what you'd call a workstation now) that was sort of an expanded PDP-8 with a built in vector display processor. It was programmed in assembly language. Imlac's big product was a phototypsetting system, CES, which took advantage of the raster graphics to offer a kind of WYSIWYG interface for the typesetting. This was before laser printers. >> I got the machine from a venerable LISP hacker (same source as the 11/45 Sam mentioned). One of his housemates (the phrase "hippy commune" wouldn't be completely accurate, but you get the picture) was one of the original hackers at MIT. I asked him something about the PDP-1, and he whipped out his PDP-1 manual to verify his answer! Somewhere, it was marked PDP-8, and he explained that that wasn't the model number, it was the serial number! In any case, it'll be interesting bringing the PDS-1 up, and the most obvious component that needs work is the display (and missing keyboard). -- Doug From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Nov 1 22:17:16 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: ROM debuggers (was Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt) In-Reply-To: <19981102035024.15724.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 2, 98 03:50:24 am Message-ID: <199811020417.UAA07667@saul7.u.washington.edu> > "D. Peschel" wrote: > > Also, your claim is totally opposite from the previous claim > > (that's what I meant by "degree"). > > No. Totally opposite and equal in degree from the original claim that > all Apple computers have a ROM debugger would be the claim that no Apple > computers have a ROM debugger (or equivalently, all Apple computers do not > have a ROM debugger). Both are universal claims. > > The claim that some X have Y is a much weaker claim, not at all of the > same degree. It does not assert any common property for the entire class > X. Hmm... what did I mean by "totally opposite"? Well, I'm not sure so maybe we should say you're right and drop the point. But your claim was rather abrupt. Let's just say that substantiation always helps. I read your point (here and in another post) about finding one counterexample -- which is true. I would have understood your point a lot quicker if you had said, "I only need to find one counterexample and here it is." Having the correct counterexample is nice too. :) > > No. Many of the older models had a plastic switch that snapped into the > > ventilation slots; it would reset the machine or bring up a debugger. > > Which has nothing to do with whether the machine has a ROM-based debugger. Well, yes, but as it happens they do have debuggers. The reason I mention the switch is that without it one would almost certainly be unaware that the de- bugger was there. (Unless some sort of crash caused an NMI.) > I didn't say anything about the XL. Actually, *you* are wrong about the XL; > I deliberately omitted the Lisa, Lisa 2, Lisa 2/5, Lisa 2/10, and Macintosh XL > because they do have a ROM-based debugger. I've used it a lot lately. Probably not entirely by choice, right? (as in, "Damn, here I am looking at the debugger again... stupid memory errors... stupid hard-drive setup... stupid copy protection...") :) Is it more or less useful than the one in the Macintosh? > 2. It is not clear that FORTH can be considered a debugger/monitor, any > more than BASIC can. hmm... FORTH gives you low-level access to memory; you could write all the features of "real" debugging monitors if they weren't already there (e.g., hex dumps). I guess the potential is there, and it's there with FORTH a lot more than with BASIC. I want to slip this in -- I was annoyed at how completely useless the HELP command appeared to be, so I typed SEE HELP and got something like this -- I forget the exact syntax: ." HELP for " print-string ." is not available." cr Is this allowed by the standard? -- Derek From yowza at yowza.com Sun Nov 1 22:23:41 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > Making my own transistors is not something I'm going to try anytime soon. > > Actually, if electronic components become impossible to obtain then I > think there will have been such a disaster that getting a computer up and > running will not be the first thing on my mind. Finding food and making > some kind of radio (in that sort of event, I would try a spark > transmitter) would be much more important. I don't expect to ever need to actually make a transistor from scratch, but knowing how to do so is one way to really understand the characteristics of the various materials and components that comprise a system. Right now, I can barely trace the simplest of faults, so this pursuit of god status is a nice long-term hobby that will hopefully ensure that some of these oddball machines in my collection start to run someday and continue to run for some time later. BTW, if, before I reach that status, you're able to dump your brain to ROM, I'd like to get a copy please. -- Doug From mbg at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 22:29:15 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <199811020429.AA13736@world.std.com> >I suspect that you have several. Hence, what is currently in your >repository? Several machines? Yes... follow the link on my web page to my list of home systems to see what I have up and running... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sun Nov 1 22:33:47 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: definition of personal computer Message-ID: <199811020433.AA16871@world.std.com> >Of course, you may own a Cray 1 as your personal computer (used in the >"accepted" meaning of personal property), but that doesn't make a Cray 1 >a "personal computer" in the taxonomical sense. Let me offer that when a person talks about a 'personal computer', it can be *anything*, including a cray-1. If, however, they talk about a 'peecee', then it probably means what you are referring to above. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From KFergason at aol.com Sun Nov 1 22:38:07 1998 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: Computer cassettes Message-ID: There is (or was, I haven't been by there in a while) a Radio Shack outlet type store at Gessner and I-10 here in Houston. I have no idea what they sell there, as I lived less than 2 miles from the place for 6 years, and never went. :-) Kelly In a message dated 11/1/98 6:35:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, gram@cnct.com writes: > > However, can you tell me more about the liquidation center? Do they have > any > > big items like computers? And do you know where the other location is? > > > > Maybe one of the ex-Radio Shack people should join in on this topic. > > More than five years with the company (starting 18 years ago tomorrow > now that I think of it), never heard of such centers. Must be since > my time. > From yowza at yowza.com Sun Nov 1 23:02:57 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: definition of personal computer In-Reply-To: <199811020433.AA16871@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Megan wrote: > >Of course, you may own a Cray 1 as your personal computer (used in the > >"accepted" meaning of personal property), but that doesn't make a Cray 1 > >a "personal computer" in the taxonomical sense. > > Let me offer that when a person talks about a 'personal computer', it > can be *anything*, including a cray-1. If, however, they talk about a > 'peecee', then it probably means what you are referring to above. Not at all. I'm talking about a computer that was *designed* to be personal. A good rule of thumb is the definition I gave previously: small, cheap, and interactive. The PC is just one instance of a pc. -- Doug From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Nov 1 11:33:13 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: A record? In-Reply-To: References: <01be0556$680d9700$f17d38cb@help-desk> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981101093313.00906780@agora.rdrop.com> Oh, come now... B^} The king of gear moving is (and probably will remain for some time) Paul Pierce (keeper of the mainframe collection). Estimated to be around 75 TONS in overall weight (as noted in a Wall Street Journal (!) article on Friday), Paul has moved the entire collection at least three times that I can think of, before it arrived in its current (permanent) home. Some might want to have a look at the WSJ article. It also features quotes from a number of names that most will be familiar with. Its (the article) easy enough to find... it begins on the front page! -jim --- At 10:19 AM 11/1/98 +0000, Pete wrote: > >On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > >> I thought I did well moving a Vax 8530/6310 cluster, complete with >> 2 HSC50's, TA78/TU78 and about 15 RA8x and some RA7x drives from >> a warehouse to my parents house, then getting it up a narrow gap into a >> vacant granny flat. Over gravel. >> But we did have a forklift load it on the vehicle for us. >> >> I think the PDP effort beats that one. >> > >What about my uVAX II? I collected it from the 2nd floor (3rd floor in >US terms I think), 2 of us carried 2 RA81s and the 19" rack unit down a >steep, narrow, winding staircase and the out through the owner's garden >before loading it all into a medium six UK hatchback (Vauxhall Cavalier). >My other 3 RA* drives came from an old established University down even >narrower staircases. At this end I cheated, as I was moving them on my >own by then I brought them into the house by wheelbarrow :) > --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 1 23:45:36 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: ROM debuggers (was Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt) In-Reply-To: <199811020417.UAA07667@saul7.u.washington.edu> (dpeschel@u.washington.edu) References: <199811020417.UAA07667@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19981102054536.16512.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > I deliberately omitted the Lisa, Lisa 2, Lisa 2/5, Lisa 2/10, and Macintosh > XL because they do have a ROM-based debugger. I've used it a lot lately. "D. Peschel" wrote: > Probably not entirely by choice, right? (as in, "Damn, here I am looking at > the debugger again... stupid memory errors... stupid hard-drive setup... > stupid copy protection...") :) Actually very much by choice. > Is it more or less useful than the one in the Macintosh? Less. It lets you examine and modify memory, and jump. That's about it. I wrote: > 2. It is not clear that FORTH can be considered a debugger/monitor, any > more than BASIC can. "D. Peschel" wrote: > hmm... FORTH gives you low-level access to memory; you could write all the > features of "real" debugging monitors if they weren't already there (e.g., > hex dumps). I guess the potential is there, and it's there with FORTH a lot > more than with BASIC. FORTH is not really much more usable as a debug monitor than a typical 8-bit-microcomputer BASIC. Both let you examine and modify memory in a crude fashion. You can write programs in either to make this more convenient. Both let you start execution of machine code at an address. But how do you single-step through the machine code using either? From donm at cts.com Sun Nov 1 23:55:38 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981102001053.5752.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > > > > > I consider anything that was marketed as a personal computer a > personal computer. I would not consider the PDP a personal computer if > I had one because it's not a personal computer. If you used a sedan > to haul around heavy things, would you call it a truck? If you mean 'sedan', then it is probably a "Sport Utility Vehicle" (SUV) and, yes, I do call that a truck! - don From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Nov 2 00:18:48 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: Corvus Concept (was Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt) In-Reply-To: Mitch Wright's message of Sun, 01 Nov 1998 22:14:34 -0600 References: <363D31AA.59CA@swbell.net> Message-ID: <199811020618.WAA09299@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Mitch Wright wrote: > Brings up another topic: Anybody got a Corvus Concept? Yes. What, pray tell, were you up to with them? -Frank McConnell From marvin at rain.org Mon Nov 2 02:12:04 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt References: Message-ID: <363D6954.7D580968@rain.org> Tony Duell wrote: > > > I also started out learning computer hardware on the PDP 11/45 at Maynard. > > The only thing hard about the class was trying to figure out what those > > You went to a class? I had the machine, the printsets and a logic probe. > And no list like this one to ask for help when I got confused... I was sent there by the company I worked for at the time in preparation for starting up a new bakery (just happened to be the largest one in the world at that time.) It ended up that I became rather proficient at repairing the PDP 11/05 and the PDP-16s and never worked on the 11/45s at the plant. One cute (to me) story. I knew the 16s pretty well, but I was switched to another area and another foreman took my place. Well a problem developed with one of the computers and I was *told* not to take care of the problem. After a week of downtime, I was told to go up and see what the problem was. About 5 minutes after that, everything was back to normal. I had left specific instructions that the machines were not to be exchanged out except when a power supply went bad. A computer went down and the new foreman told the tech to change out the machine. Apparently the foreman was not well respected, and the tech just did as he was told (so I found out later when I asked the tech why.) A number of cards in the PDP-16 were specific to the location the PDP-16 was installed, and changing the computer out took these specific cards (constants cards) and put them on the bench with who knows what in the computer at that point. A quick change of cards solved that problem. > > hyroglyphics were that described somehow the internal workings of the thing > > :). Hardware repair was pretty much limited to putting tape on one of the > > board gold fingers so it didn't make proper contact when the board was > > reinstalled. > > Eh? I can understand why that might introduce a 'deliberate fault' which > you'd have to find, but I can't think of a diagnostic technique where > isolating odd pins of the 11/45 CPU modules would be that useful. An understanding of how the machine worked was what was being taught. Being able to find and define what wasn't working was one way of showing at least some understanding of how it worked. We only ran into trouble once when we taped the wrong pin and put the card back in. We ended up creating a problem with the microcode execution, and that one proved a bit difficult to locate (took us about 45 minutes or so to find the problem.) From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Nov 2 03:32:07 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: Pinouts Message-ID: Was it Aaron Finney who was doing the Pinout collection? I have the pinouts for the Apple ][ bus among other connectors inside the Apple ][ and don't know where to submit it (and sorry for this public posting but I don't know Aaron's e-mail address). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From franke at sbs.de Mon Nov 2 05:39:51 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: About VCF 2.0 and system design Message-ID: <199811021019.LAA18935@marina.fth.sbs.de> Servus Derek, > (I may bring my Kaypro to show to > people, or perhaps just software -- there were other Kaypro demos there. > ) I may need your help in the near future. I just aquired a Kaypro 4 this weekend (just ~25 USD) - its in a bad visual state, but it seems to work (I cleand it, and it is powering up), but there where no system or application disks. So geting the system disks would be helpfull. Do you have some, ode do you know someone who does ? Thank you Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Mon Nov 2 07:02:51 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: Repair strategy (was Re: eBay strikes again...) Message-ID: <199811021142.MAA02101@marina.fth.sbs.de> > < enough to open a PSU. I read in a book once that opening a PSU will > < cause damage to a special layer that prevents interference from the > < PSU to the motherboard. I haven't been able to substantiate this... > If that doesn't sound bogus to you I have swampland in florida to > sell you. It's bogus. Nono, always remember, The robots that closed the PSU have been especialy trained to do it the right way - if you just close the cover you might confuse the electrons ! And I have some nice land along the Main river in Franken real cheap, you may only have to wait until the 4 feet (1.1m) of water are gone ... Gruss Hans P.S.: The part about the water is true. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Nov 2 05:58:17 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: About VCF 2.0 and system design In-Reply-To: <199811021019.LAA18935@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Nov 2, 98 11:40:51 am Message-ID: <199811021158.DAA32187@saul1.u.washington.edu> > I may need your help in the near future. I just aquired a Kaypro 4 > this weekend (just ~25 USD) - its in a bad visual state, but it > seems to work (I cleand it, and it is powering up), but there where > no system or application disks. So geting the system disks would > be helpfull. Do you have some, ode do you know someone who does ? Yes. Don Maslin, who reads this list, will send you CP/M and a bunch of other disks. He has almost every CP/M disk format known to man -- he does a great job. There were a couple different models of the Kaypro 4 (Kaypro reused their model numbers even after making major internal design changes -- I detest this practice of reusing model numbers; so far Kaypro is the only company I've seen that does this). I think each needs a different version of CP/M. Take the case off, and look for a number like 8x-xxx-x on one or more of the chips on the motherboard. The last x may be a letter (probably A) or a number or might not be there at all. Kaypro's part-numbering system was rather erratic, it seems. 81-240 original (1983? maybe 1982) Kaypro 4 81-232 1983 Kaypro 4 81-184 1984 Kaypro 4 (a.k.a. Kaypro 4'84) 81-292 1984 Kaypro 4 (newest ROM version for this machine) 81-296 Kaypro 4X (with super-high-density floppies) 81-146 character ROM 81-187 character ROM 81-235 character ROM There was also a Kaypro IV but in a quick search through my technical manual, I can't find any info about it. Get in touch with Don or wait for him to reply to my message :) and give him the ROM version. He has CP/M, BASIC, Wordstar, MASM, etc. There's a URL but I don't have it right now. Good luck, -- Derek From cdrmool at interlog.com Mon Nov 2 05:58:52 1998 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (cdrmool@interlog.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: About VCF 2.0 and system design In-Reply-To: <199811021019.LAA18935@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: Hello, I've just this weekend picked up a Kaypro II and 4 for a dollar each. Included with them was what looks like all the manuals, software, and a pile of Kaypro user group magazines from 1984. While I'm new to Kaypro I can look up anything you want from the manuals or copy the disks. I can pass on some disk images if you want. Just let me know. Colan > I may need your help in the near future. I just aquired a Kaypro 4 > this weekend (just ~25 USD) - its in a bad visual state, but it > seems to work (I cleand it, and it is powering up), but there where > no system or application disks. So geting the system disks would > be helpfull. Do you have some, ode do you know someone who does ? > > Thank you > Gruss > Hans > > -- > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK > From franke at sbs.de Mon Nov 2 07:29:30 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again Message-ID: <199811021209.NAA21715@marina.fth.sbs.de> > It's not that weird. Everyone knows that 286 and 386 machines are > crap ;) In fact, one reason is that noone gets attached to them, and > also because Pentia aren't that much different from 386s. So, no > nostalgia. And, I think that early PCs were a lot less useful than > some other machines of the time (like Commodores and Apples) Just tell these to some of the Yougoslavian dealer on swap meets and fleamarkets over here they are mostly ignorant and see PC as PC - no mater whats inside. 86 laptop with broken case just 200 Mark (as seen last weekend :) WooHaHa. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Mon Nov 2 07:35:33 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: About VCF 2.0 and system design Message-ID: <199811021215.NAA28565@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> be helpfull. Do you have some, ode do you know someone who does ? > Yes. Don Maslin, who reads this list, will send you CP/M and a bunch of > other disks. He has almost every CP/M disk format known to man -- he does > a great job. Do you have his eMail address, so I could mail him ? > There were a couple different models of the Kaypro 4 (Kaypro reused their > model numbers even after making major internal design changes -- I detest this > practice of reusing model numbers; so far Kaypro is the only company I've seen > that does this). I think each needs a different version of CP/M. I think this is better then just anounce every other month a 'new' model, while they changed only som screws. > Take the case off, and look for a number like 8x-xxx-x on one or more of the > chips on the motherboard. The last x may be a letter (probably A) or a number > or might not be there at all. Kaypro's part-numbering system was rather > erratic, it seems. > 81-240 original (1983? maybe 1982) Kaypro 4 > 81-232 1983 Kaypro 4 > 81-184 1984 Kaypro 4 (a.k.a. Kaypro 4'84) > 81-292 1984 Kaypro 4 (newest ROM version for this machine) > 81-296 Kaypro 4X (with super-high-density floppies) > 81-146 character ROM > 81-187 character ROM > 81-235 character ROM On the Backside ther's some type number: 81-015 (if I remember right) I don't know if it's for the whole machine or what and can't see it fiting in your sceme. Thank you Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Nov 2 07:06:07 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: Pinouts Message-ID: <19374308.363dae3f@aol.com> an excellent source of pinouts for apple ][ connectors is the apple service technical procedures peripheral interface guide. I have this book and it has the pinouts and peripheral configurations for every apple model and peripheral from the apple ][ through the lisa and mac II. this book also provides cable specs as well so one can make his own cable also. this book would have some valuable info for everyone if there was an easy way to copy it. david In a message dated 11/2/98 4:33:17 AM US Eastern Standard Time, dastar@ncal.verio.com writes: > I have the pinouts for the Apple ][ bus among other connectors inside the > Apple ][ and don't know where to submit it (and sorry for this public > posting but I don't know Aaron's e-mail address). > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic. > com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Nov 2 09:30:04 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: References: <19981101155721.27640.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981102093004.3e77312a@intellistar.net> At 10:09 AM 11/1/98 -0800, you wrote: >On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > >> It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for >> computers made by Apple, I don't know of any. I especially wish the >> PC had a ROM debugger. It would really help me feel like I'm using a >> worthwhile machine. > >Boot DOS (or open a DOS window). Type "debug". Not in ROM but its what >you want. The Zenith PCs have a good ROM based debugger that works very similar to debug. Press Control, Alt and Insert simultanously. It'll put you into the ROM based system monitor. It Type ? for help. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Nov 2 09:34:46 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981102093446.3e771b92@intellistar.net> At 06:41 PM 11/1/98 +0000, you wrote: >> >> I've got an old CRT that is decaying along the glass edges. I wonder if there isn't a second sheet of glass over the front of the actual CRT that might be delaminating. You see that a lot in old car windshields. They started turning gray around the edges and get progressively worse. Joe From franke at sbs.de Mon Nov 2 09:29:47 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: CRT decay Message-ID: <199811021409.PAA03341@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> What is this CRT from again? > It's a 30-year old CRT from a 30-year old computer. The surface is glass, > AFAICT. 30 years ? That's not realy old - I had think of maybe 50 years, since I know special cases of degradiation of old tubes from around the war, especialy when stored in very dry (less than 60%) and warm (average 25 C) conditions. But all of this doesen't affect the glass. 'Only' the coating around the tube (to keep light out). and inside of the tube (sometimes additional coating and of course the phosphor layer at the projection screen). The coating on the outside is often just turned to dust on tubes of this or greater age, since they didn't use any kind of ceramic material - often just special kinds of paper, that turns out to be very teperature and heat sensitive. When these coatings have been kind of hard, they also suffered from the expansion of the tube. The coatings on the inside had only the teperature and mechanical problems, and seam to be very stable when stored properly and not to warm (I know TV sets still working after 50 years!). But when exposed to heat, the inner coatings also degenerate. I have seen complete clear Braun tubes ... just some dust in one corner... Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Marty at itgonline.com Mon Nov 2 08:15:57 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: CRT decay Message-ID: <1998Nov02.091400.1767.155146@smtp.itgonline.com> ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: CRT decay Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/31/98 11:05 PM >I've got an old CRT that is decaying along the glass edges. Are you saying the phosphor is peeling off the inside of the tube, the aquedag peeling off, or is the glass actually deteriorating? I've never seen glass deteriorate and have some television kinescopes (CRT's) which are close to sixty years old and show no sign of decay, including the aquedag and phosphor. Marty I've seen foam turn to dust, rubber turn to goo, batteries turn to acid, but I hadn't expected CRT glass to revert to sand. Sam tells me that he's seen something similar on his Soroc terminal. What process is causing this? Isn't glass basically SiO2? I assume it's crystalizing rather than oxidizing. Anything I can do to prevent it from occurring on other tubes? Any interesting risks associated with firing an electron gun at this crystalized stuff with no remaining phosphor? -- Doug ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct31.230501.1767.74354; Sat, 31 Oct 1998 23:05:01 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id UAA20225; Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:02:52 -0800 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id UAA23226 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:02:48 -0800 Received: from behemoth.host4u.net (behemoth.host4u.net [209.150.128.29]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id UAA25 293 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:02:48 -0800 Received: from localhost (yowza@localhost) by behemoth.host4u.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA21696 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 1998 22:02:47 -0600 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 22:02:44 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Doug Yowza To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers X-Sender: yowza@behemoth.host4u.net X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From william at ans.net Mon Nov 2 08:32:35 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One thing about the F connector is that their life in insertion cycles is really bad. In a cable facility, that may be OK, but in a network, where machines get moved alot, replacing flaked out Fs may get boring fast. > What, no Belling-Lee coaxial plugs (used for TV aerials in the UK, and > thus very common over here) ? Or Pye coax plugs (screw-lock connectors, > not common at all, but I have a reasonable stock of them)? And of course > the SMA/SMB/SMC connectors. And the truely peculiar General Radio 874 - one of the first coax plugs, and hermaphroditic too! William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Nov 2 08:35:46 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <199810302308.AA00743@world.std.com> Message-ID: > BNC is a UHF constant impedence connector. They work very well at > several GHz! They just don't like high RF power (voltage). They are not that great, compared to later connectors. The F (a quality one) will do a better job in the UHF region. > When BNC started to be used for Eithernet, Ts were expensive and got cheap > due to volume. F connectors are common to cable industry and if they > needed Ts they would be cheap too. Actually, BNC Ts were quite common back then. They were used in radar test sets quite a bit. OK, being military, they were still expensive... William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Nov 2 08:38:58 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: bit addressing, alignment, bus errors, and VM (was Re: PDP-10 arch question) In-Reply-To: <363B1148.14F97257@idirect.com> Message-ID: > After more than 25 years, I am not certain of anything. But if Cray had a > hand in the CDC 6000s, and he was still around CDC at the time the > STAR 100 was designed and built, I would certainly think that he was > also involved in the STAR 100 as well. I thought I saw an article about > the STAR 100 recently which described the circular nature of the physical > rack which was required in order to reduce to length of the wires which > interconnected the different parts of the system. Evidently, it was rather > cold in the centre of the whole thing. The followup to the 7600 was to be circular. See . William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Nov 2 08:50:32 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: bit addressing, alignment, bus errors, and VM (was Re: PDP-10 arch question) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981101123830.0091c980@47.161.112.121> Message-ID: > Seymour Cray had more than a hand in the design of the 6000 series. > Although he worked with some fine engineers (Thornton (sp?) is one name I > remember), I believe that the instruction set, architecture and packaging > scheme all primarily came from Seymour. Apparently Seymour did some of the bits of the 6600, like the I/O. The scoreboard and other innovations were Thornton's. Somewhere there is a thread about that on comp.sys.super, but I can not find it now. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Nov 2 08:51:15 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <05db01be05d2$b4a229b0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: > For me, a personal computer is defined as any computer that I own and > operate. If I could find a SYS/360 or SYS370, or Sigma/7 or Sigma/9 or > a CDC 7600/6600/etc or a DPS/9, or ... ( well, you get the idea), I would > consider such a computer a personal computer. Any body know where > I can get one of these behemoths? How about a DPS/6? There is one for the taking in Indiana. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Nov 2 08:57:48 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981102004230.14429.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > I've been an operator too, and it is certainly possible for one person > to be an operator of such a machine. But where are you going to get spare > parts for a 370 when it breaks? Good question. Easy answer: replace the chip with an exact duplicate using the spares you have been picking up all over the place! If it has a little aluminum covered chip - grab it! Tough answer: I am not sure how much the S/370 logic would like working with 10K ECL, but one could burn a PAL to do the required function. S/370 chips were not very complex at all - easily functionally replacable with the ECL 22V10s. The PALs may also fit! > Several collector *own* big iron, but I have yet to hear of any *operating* > it. AFAIK, even the Computer Museum Historical Collection is not attempting > to operate any big iron; the closest I've heard of is an attempt to > restore an IBM 1620 (which is only medium iron). Very true. I do not have any real big iron (I wish I did), so I guess I can not comment. RCS/RI can keep a PDP-12 operational most of the time, like my PDP-8/S, but they have their bad days. The RCS/RI VAX-11/750 can stay up, but that is about it. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Nov 2 08:59:03 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: What to do with an 11/44! In-Reply-To: <085b01be05fc$95372830$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: > I doubt that I shall ever get a chance to obtain machines like the > 7090, > 1620, and 1401 (all IBM). Never say never. I missed out on a 7094 about a year ago. It went to the scrappers just weeks before I knew about it. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 2 09:27:20 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981102092720.00ef98b0@pc> At 05:59 PM 11/1/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote: > >No, I'm not sure. When I first saw it, I thought mold was growing along >the edges, but closer examination showed that that "growth" was inside the >glass, and the patterns were somewhat crystaline. I'll let you know if >it spontaneously implodes. Is it possible that you're seeing some element that's been vaporized and is now being re-deposited as crystalline material? There is so much going on inside a tube with high voltage, heaters, glowing wires, etc. that something could be vaporizing and cooling. Which reminds me of something I'd do as a kid: pop open vacuum tubes and add water to the grey material tucked inside the rings, which would then fizz. Maybe it was calcium carbide. I imagine it was there to suck up water or gas after the tube had been sealed. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 2 08:59:47 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:01 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <363A9828.C13D6C30@cnct.com> References: <199810310152.AA26634@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981102085947.00f1f620@pc> At 11:55 PM 10/30/98 -0500, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: >The scars >on my hands always remind me. (Yes, the newer crimped BNC connectors >don't scar that way -- but they look similar enough to trigger the >memory of pain and discomfort -- that wind was cold). Argh! Argh! Kids these days! Kmph! Urgle! In my day, we had to walk both ways uphill in the snow, and we'd wrap barbed wire on our bare feet for traction! Cough! - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 2 09:16:29 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) In-Reply-To: <199811020742.CAA09487@armigeron.com> References: <363BD73E.F821807D@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981102091629.00d21c50@pc> At 02:42 AM 11/2/98 -0500, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > To be fair, when MS-DOS was written, the 8088 didn't have memory >protection so an ill-written program would scribble all over memory. Or with x86 in later years, it would just scrog a segment. >The same with programs on the Amiga (which is a multitasking system on a 68000 >which, for various reasons, can't use a memory management unit [1]). I think this is crucial for those who wish to understand why the Amiga didn't live forever: although it was 32-bit, its architecture had a deep reliance on wide-open shared memory, preventing it from reaching the next level of robust behavior. Tricks like "Enforcer" certainly helped developers write safer code once the 68020 came along, but it was too little, too late. > I've done very little programming under Windows myself >(just playing around at some previous jobs) and I don't even like it that >much. Each routine taking an average of six parameters (some as high as >12!) and depending upon what you pass in does one of ten things [1]. If you don't know much about Windows programming, then you shouldn't be making such strong statements. :-) - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 2 09:35:09 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: References: <19981102004230.14429.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981102093509.00d29e00@pc> At 07:13 PM 11/1/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote: > >In order to reach god status in our little domain here, you must be able >to repair anything that can go wrong with your machine using any resources >that might be available. No kidding. Although I too hold the greatest admiration for someone who has the talent to do that, we must keep in mind that while our definition for "classic computer" is moveable and extends back ten years (now to November 1988) the time period for "repairable by human" probably ends at a specific fixed date, perhaps dooming some classic computer collectors to a certain time period, based on what they're willing and able to repair. - John From bill at chipware.com Mon Nov 2 10:08:40 1998 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981101212250.13215.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <000901be067b$0e600370$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Eric Smith wrote: > IIRC some Ohio Scientific machines had a ROM debug monitor. Yup, every OSI machine I have dealt with powers on with: D/C/W/M ? and pressing the 'M' takes you to a neat little 6502 ROM debug monitor. Bill Sudbrink From william at ans.net Mon Nov 2 10:22:38 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: A record? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981101093313.00906780@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: > Some might want to have a look at the WSJ article. It also features quotes > from a number of names that most will be familiar with. Its (the article) > easy enough to find... it begins on the front page! Any pointers to the article online? William Donzelli william@ans.net From Marty at itgonline.com Mon Nov 2 10:41:00 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: CRT decay Message-ID: <1998Nov02.114008.1767.155220@smtp.itgonline.com> ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: CRT decay Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 11/2/98 11:04 AM At 05:59 PM 11/1/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote: > >No, I'm not sure. When I first saw it, I thought mold was growing along >the edges, but closer examination showed that that "growth" was inside the >glass, and the patterns were somewhat crystaline. I'll let you know if >it spontaneously implodes. Is it possible that you're seeing some element that's been vaporized and is now being re-deposited as crystalline material? There is so much going on inside a tube with high voltage, heaters, glowing wires, etc. that something could be vaporizing and cooling. >>Which reminds me of something I'd do as a kid: pop open vacuum tubes >>and add water to the grey material tucked inside the rings, which >>would then fizz. Maybe it was calcium carbide. I imagine it was >>there to suck up water or gas after the tube had been sealed. Sounds like you may be talking about a 'getter' which is used in the production of vacuum tubes (valves for you gents across the pond) to eliminate vapor and residual air the vacuum pump can't draw out or may be in the metal components of the tube (plate, grid, filiment and arbor). The getter is a compound (barium, magnesium, etc.) placed in the tube which is ignited after the envelope is sealed. After the getter ignites it sometimes leaves a silver coating inside the tube. Marty - John ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Nov02.110438.1767.74634; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 11:04:38 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id IAA17186; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:02:22 -0800 Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id IAA52748 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:02:08 -0800 Received: from threedee.com (threedee.com [208.18.183.65]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id IAA04 686 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:02:06 -0800 Received: from winnie (winnie [192.198.5.13]) by threedee.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA00868 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:05:22 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981102092720.00ef98b0@pc> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 09:27:20 -0600 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: John Foust To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: CRT decay In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: jfoust@pc (Unverified) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From erd at infinet.com Mon Nov 2 10:38:24 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Reparing Classics (was Re: PDP-11/44 Boot Prompt) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981102093509.00d29e00@pc> from "John Foust" at Nov 2, 98 09:35:09 am Message-ID: <199811021638.LAA28415@user2.infinet.com> > > At 07:13 PM 11/1/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote: > > > >In order to reach god status in our little domain here, you must be able > >to repair anything that can go wrong with your machine using any resources > >that might be available. I don't know about being a God, but I do try to collect stuff I can fix myself. I'm good with TTL logic (PDP-8/L, etc.) and can do surface mount repair, but my theoretical knowledge of switchers is thin, as is my ability to repair a CRT with no schematics. Fortunately, a good friend of mine live three blocks away and he *can* fix CRTs with no schematics. > No kidding. Although I too hold the greatest admiration for someone > who has the talent to do that, we must keep in mind that while > our definition for "classic computer" is moveable and extends > back ten years (now to November 1988) the time period for > "repairable by human" probably ends at a specific fixed date, > perhaps dooming some classic computer collectors to a certain > time period, based on what they're willing and able to repair. Able being the key word. Highly integrated stuff is not easy to find spare parts for, neither are most monitors. I have a Commodore 1950 multisyunc monitor (barely 10 years old). It broke a few years ago. I happen to have the service manual for it. The flyback was *never* imported into the U.S. Commodore's policy was to not stock HV components because that might constitute a policy of permitting repairs, subjecting them to liability if somone got hurt or died while repairing the monitor. -ethan ObCoolRepairHack - It used to be tedious to diagnose and repair DEC M-series FLIPCHIP modules. After I got a TTL/CMOS IC tester, I rigged up a cable from a DIP test clip, some ribbon cable and a DIP header. Now, I plug the cable into the IC tester, clip the diagnostic clip on a chip on the M module, then press "TEST". The battery in the tester has to drive three to four 7400-series ICs, but the tests are valid. I should mention that this is a bench test, not an in-place test. The I/O leads on the module just go back and forth to the chip on most modules (the M220 and other dual-height modules are an exception, of course). Diagnosing a PDP-8/i is no longer a nightmare - just follow the prints, make a few educated guesses, test two or three boards and (drawing from a pile of TESTED spares), back in business. -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 2 10:56:14 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: <1998Nov02.114008.1767.155220@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981102105614.00f68100@pc> At 11:41 AM 11/2/98 -0500, Marty wrote: > > Sounds like you may be talking about a 'getter' which is used in the > production of vacuum tubes (valves for you gents across the pond) to > eliminate vapor and residual air the vacuum pump can't draw out or may > be in the metal components of the tube (plate, grid, filiment and > arbor). The getter is a compound (barium, magnesium, etc.) placed in > the tube which is ignited after the envelope is sealed. After the > getter ignites it sometimes leaves a silver coating inside the tube. Yes, "getter" is the word. The substance I remember would generate an ozone-smelling gas when wetted. It physically resembled calcium carbide in color in appearance. Offhand, I'm not sure how this coincides with your description of an ignited compound: you'd think there wouldn't be much oxygen there at that point in manufacturing, and what combustive process would *release* free metal? - John From Marty at itgonline.com Mon Nov 2 11:26:55 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: CRT decay Message-ID: <1998Nov02.122608.1767.155242@smtp.itgonline.com> ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: CRT decay Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 11/2/98 12:00 PM At 11:41 AM 11/2/98 -0500, Marty wrote: > > Sounds like you may be talking about a 'getter' which is used in the > production of vacuum tubes (valves for you gents across the pond) to > eliminate vapor and residual air the vacuum pump can't draw out or may > be in the metal components of the tube (plate, grid, filiment and > arbor). The getter is a compound (barium, magnesium, etc.) placed in > the tube which is ignited after the envelope is sealed. After the > getter ignites it sometimes leaves a silver coating inside the tube. Yes, "getter" is the word. The substance I remember would generate an ozone-smelling gas when wetted. It physically resembled calcium carbide in color in appearance. >>Offhand, I'm not sure how this coincides with your description of an >>ignited compound: you'd think there wouldn't be much oxygen there >>at that point in manufacturing, and what combustive process would >>*release* free metal? From what I've read there are traces of oxygen actually in the metal parts, plus the vacuum pumps cannot draw all residual gas from the tube. The getter flashes and literally burns the residual gases from within the tube and the metal components. A byproduct is the silvering on the inside of the tube. I can look up the process and give you more details if you wish. I have a 1935 book entitled 'Theory of Vacuum Tubes in Radio' which goes into great detail on the matter. It explains the various getters and why they were introduced in manufacture along with the chemical makeup of the getters. Marty - John ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Nov02.120049.1767.74650; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 12:00:50 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id IAA20799; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:58:01 -0800 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id IAA60496 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:57:57 -0800 Received: from threedee.com (threedee.com [208.18.183.65]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id IAA16 963 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:57:55 -0800 Received: from winnie (winnie [192.198.5.13]) by threedee.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA01143 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:01:11 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981102105614.00f68100@pc> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 10:56:14 -0600 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: John Foust To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: CRT decay In-Reply-To: <1998Nov02.114008.1767.155220@smtp.itgonline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: jfoust@pc (Unverified) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From marvin at rain.org Mon Nov 2 11:46:28 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again References: <199811021209.NAA21715@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <363DEFF4.BF56DA19@rain.org> Hans Franke wrote: > > > It's not that weird. Everyone knows that 286 and 386 machines are > > crap ;) In fact, one reason is that noone gets attached to them, and > Just tell these to some of the Yougoslavian dealer > on swap meets and fleamarkets over here they are > mostly ignorant and see PC as PC - no mater whats > inside. 86 laptop with broken case just 200 Mark > (as seen last weekend :) WooHaHa. I was really wondering how to pay for my next trip to Europe, and this sound better than ebay! Now, how many can I take in my luggage. I can probably fit about 15 or so, since these are in better shape, maybe I can get 300 marks. Let see, 300 * 15 = 4500 marks which is about (I think) $3000 USD? That will just about cover it :). From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Nov 2 11:56:34 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > How about a DPS/6? There is one for the taking in Indiana. Oh yeah? Where? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] From william at ans.net Mon Nov 2 12:13:58 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981102105614.00f68100@pc> Message-ID: > Yes, "getter" is the word. Spefically, the getter is the wierd looking bit of metal that is near the silverly coating on the tube, whose job is to get the residual and trapped gas during manufacture. The keeper is the actual silvery coating, whose job is to keep the oxygen in a state so it can not get rereleased. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Nov 2 12:15:49 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Honeywell DPS/6 (was Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Oh yeah? Where? Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 08:26:32 -0500 From: Russ Kreigh To: william@ans.net Subject: Re: Wanted: older computer stuff Honeywell DPS/6 Minicomputer 2 Big 6 foot tape drives Located in northeast indiana Contact him. William Donzelli william@ans.net From franke at sbs.de Mon Nov 2 13:48:21 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again Message-ID: <199811021828.TAA05654@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> It's not that weird. Everyone knows that 286 and 386 machines are >>> crap ;) In fact, one reason is that noone gets attached to them, and >> Just tell these to some of the Yougoslavian dealer >> on swap meets and fleamarkets over here they are >> mostly ignorant and see PC as PC - no mater whats >> inside. 86 laptop with broken case just 200 Mark >> (as seen last weekend :) WooHaHa. > I was really wondering how to pay for my next trip to Europe, and this sound > better than ebay! Now, how many can I take in my luggage. I can probably > fit about 15 or so, since these are in better shape, maybe I can get 300 > marks. Let see, 300 * 15 = 4500 marks which is about (I think) $3000 USD? > That will just about cover it :). Just be aware to display them for some weeks before they get sold (and lets equate some with 50+). Hey, I have a way better idea - since I know, you want to get rid of your Poly88, I might offer you free staying for lets say a week or so in Munich - This will be in a thousends of stars class of housing wihe free pool, fresch air, convieniant to the Deutsches Museum and my home, right in the middle of the city. Great people, great hospitality, and I might even supply a plasic sheet, so you don't get wet .... And you could still try to sell your 15 laptops :) *g* Gruss Hans Sorry Marvin, I just could not resist - You just don't know these trolls we have on every swap/flea market. Serious, you're wellcome, when ever you are in Munich. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rax at warbaby.com Mon Nov 2 12:08:50 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Cool MIT gig Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1763 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/95c952c9/attachment.bin From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 2 12:58:14 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: About VCF 2.0 and system design In-Reply-To: <199811021158.DAA32187@saul1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > > I may need your help in the near future. I just aquired a Kaypro 4 > > this weekend (just ~25 USD) - its in a bad visual state, but it > > seems to work (I cleand it, and it is powering up), but there where > > no system or application disks. So geting the system disks would > > be helpfull. Do you have some, ode do you know someone who does ? > > Yes. Don Maslin, who reads this list, will send you CP/M and a bunch of > other disks. He has almost every CP/M disk format known to man -- he does > a great job. > > There were a couple different models of the Kaypro 4 (Kaypro reused their > model numbers even after making major internal design changes -- I detest this > practice of reusing model numbers; so far Kaypro is the only company I've seen > that does this). I think each needs a different version of CP/M. > > Take the case off, and look for a number like 8x-xxx-x on one or more of the > chips on the motherboard. The last x may be a letter (probably A) or a number > or might not be there at all. Kaypro's part-numbering system was rather > erratic, it seems. > > * 81-240 original (1983? maybe 1982) Kaypro 4 > 81-232 1983 Kaypro 4 > * 81-184 1984 Kaypro 4 (a.k.a. Kaypro 4'84) > 81-292 1984 Kaypro 4 (newest ROM version for this machine) > # 81-296 Kaypro 4X (with super-high-density floppies) > 81-146 character ROM > 81-187 character ROM > 81-235 character ROM > > There was also a Kaypro IV but in a quick search through my technical manual, > I can't find any info about it. > > Get in touch with Don or wait for him to reply to my message :) and give him > the ROM version. He has CP/M, BASIC, Wordstar, MASM, etc. There's a URL but > I don't have it right now. Here I am Derek! As a matter of information, I have the numbers marked with an '*' as motherboard models not EPROMs, and the '#' having a board number of 81-297 with EPROM of 81-326. - don > Good luck, > > -- Derek > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cws86.kyamk.fi/mirrors/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Nov 2 13:25:38 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again In-Reply-To: <199811021828.TAA05654@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > Hey, I have a way better idea - since I know, you want to > get rid of your Poly88, I might offer you free staying for > lets say a week or so in Munich - This will be in a thousends > of stars class of housing wihe free pool, fresch air, > convieniant to the Deutsches Museum and my home, right > in the middle of the city. Great people, great hospitality, > and I might even supply a plasic sheet, so you don't get wet .... Can I get the same deal with a Commodore 64? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Nov 2 13:25:52 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <000901be067b$0e600370$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Nov 2, 98 11:08:40 am Message-ID: <199811021925.LAA20233@saul2.u.washington.edu> > Yup, every OSI machine I have dealt with powers on with: > > D/C/W/M ? > > and pressing the 'M' takes you to a neat little 6502 ROM > debug monitor. And D is for Diskette, I assume... is C for Cassette? W, of course, runs Windows. :) What does W really do? -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Nov 2 13:36:46 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981102091629.00d21c50@pc> from "John Foust" at Nov 2, 98 09:16:29 am Message-ID: <199811021936.LAA25409@saul2.u.washington.edu> John Foust wrote: > I think this is crucial for those who wish to understand why the Amiga > didn't live forever: although it was 32-bit, its architecture had a deep > reliance on wide-open shared memory, preventing it from reaching the > next level of robust behavior. Tricks like "Enforcer" certainly helped > developers write safer code once the 68020 came along, but it was too > little, too late. I knew there was a reliance on shared memory, but I didn't know it was that deep. Are you talking just about the custom hardware? (When the Amiga was new, Amiga clearly had to work its butt off it get the chips to perform so well -- making them squeeze through an MMU while doing DMA was obviously not practical. Do you know if they even had plans to add memory management?) Or does the OS rely on shared memory as well? (by being nosy about its own routines, perhaps) I'm tempted to say that after its initial success, Amiga rested on its lau- rels and didn't try to improve the hardware for a long time (and they only sort-of tried to improve the software). I don't know if it's *true*, but it's *tempting*. Then they got around to the AGA graphics hardware which is much better, except they were never able to catch all the bugs! Now they want to combine the old architecture with fancy new CPU's and hope- fully memory management -- good luck but it sounds like a lot of work. Do you know if they're trying for software compatibility? There is another lesson here, I think. It's one reason why adaptation has been or will be so hard -- ANY decision you make about a system, good or bad, especially bad, will affect the system for longer than you think. -- Derek From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Nov 1 13:37:07 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. References: <199810310152.AA26634@world.std.com> <3.0.5.32.19981102085947.00f1f620@pc> Message-ID: <363CB862.8B02A217@bigfoot.com> John Foust wrote: > At 11:55 PM 10/30/98 -0500, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > >The scars > >on my hands always remind me. (Yes, the newer crimped BNC connectors > >don't scar that way -- but they look similar enough to trigger the > >memory of pain and discomfort -- that wind was cold). > > Argh! Argh! Kids these days! Kmph! Urgle! In my day, we had > to walk both ways uphill in the snow, and we'd wrap barbed wire > on our bare feet for traction! Cough! Glad to see I wasn't the only one! From franke at sbs.de Mon Nov 2 14:59:01 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again Message-ID: <199811021938.UAA15095@marina.fth.sbs.de> > On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Hans Franke wrote: >> Hey, I have a way better idea - since I know, you want to >> get rid of your Poly88, I might offer you free staying for >> lets say a week or so in Munich - This will be in a thousends >> of stars class of housing wihe free pool, fresch air, >> convieniant to the Deutsches Museum and my home, right >> in the middle of the city. Great people, great hospitality, >> and I might even supply a plasic sheet, so you don't get wet .... > Can I get the same deal with a Commodore 64? As long, as they are not blown up by terrorists, our bridges are free for everyone. But for a C64 I think you have to add some money :) Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Mon Nov 2 10:38:33 1998 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <802566B0.00609B10.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> I had one because it's not a personal computer. If you used a sedan >> to haul around heavy things, would you call it a truck? > > If you mean 'sedan', then it is probably a "Sport Utility Vehicle" (SUV) > and, yes, I do call that a truck! I don't know about sedans (saloons, we call them over here), but convertibles are very useful for carting heavy stuff around. I seldom used the back seat of my Triumph Stag for anything else (yes it was mostly classic computer stuff, so this is just on topic). Of course when the Stag died (in honourable combat with a Volvo, FWIW) I decided to get an estate car (station wagon) to replace it. I now have a pickup and a van... Philip. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 2 13:44:57 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: About VCF 2.0 and system design Message-ID: <199811021944.AA29571@world.std.com> < > Take the case off, and look for a number like 8x-xxx-x on one or more < > chips on the motherboard. The last x may be a letter (probably A) or < > or might not be there at all. Kaypro's part-numbering system was rath < > erratic, it seems. < > < > * 81-240 original (1983? maybe 1982) Kaypro 4 < > 81-232 1983 Kaypro 4 < > * 81-184 1984 Kaypro 4 (a.k.a. Kaypro 4'84) < > 81-292 1984 Kaypro 4 (newest ROM version for this < > # 81-296 Kaypro 4X (with super-high-density floppies) < > 81-146 character ROM < > 81-187 character ROM < > 81-235 character ROM What blows that all to dust is a machine like mine. The box is kaypro-1 (81-021) written all over the outside but, the board is apparently 4-84 and it's equipped with handyman, Advent turbo rom and a 2mb Ramdisk. I tell people it says kaypro-1 (number 1!) and they say two full height drives with slots horizontal but, mine has two half height two sided drives mounted vertical. Apparently it was a 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 Fochevromercysler! Allison PS: Fochevromercysler was one name given to a a mishmash of engine, transmission body, suspension parts that came from Ford, Chevy, Mercury, Chrysler. Seems a friend of mine had no loyalty to any one car. From bill at chipware.com Mon Nov 2 13:45:11 1998 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Start Modes (was RE: PDP-11/44 boot prompt) In-Reply-To: <199811021925.LAA20233@saul2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <001301be0699$4dd5e920$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> D. Peschel wrote > > Yup, every OSI machine I have dealt with powers on with: > > > > D/C/W/M ? > > > > and pressing the 'M' takes you to a neat little 6502 ROM > > debug monitor. > > And D is for Diskette, I assume... is C for Cassette? > > W, of course, runs Windows. :) What does W really do? > > -- Derek > D - disk boot - Jumps to some fixed address where the disk bootstrap routine is known to be. C - "cold" boot - Machine initializes all memory to power on values and starts basic in ROM W - "warm" boot - Machine performs minimal initialization to restart basic in ROM. Attempts to leave memory (including basic program store) in tact. Sort of a basic debug mode. Example: 1) basic program hangs 2) hit reset button 3) warm boot 4) you can now do things like: LIST or even better: PRINT X$ M - monitor - Runs monitor in ROM, again with minimal initialization Bill Sudbrink From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Nov 1 13:54:46 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. References: Message-ID: <363CBC85.E6963EA0@bigfoot.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > BNC is a UHF constant impedence connector. They work very well at > > several GHz! They just don't like high RF power (voltage). > > They are not that great, compared to later connectors. The F (a quality > one) will do a better job in the UHF region. The F still won't hold that much wattage due to the fact you're using the bare single conductor of the cable itself to make the connection. The coax used for most F connections also has low wattage capacities. It's great for low wattage, high frequency like satellite apps though. All test equip uses BNC for the ease of removal, high stability, strength and wattage ratings. The missiles I worked on in the USAF (air launched nukes) all ran in the Ghz ranges and were connected by either threaded UHF style connectors and BNC. > > When BNC started to be used for Eithernet, Ts were expensive and got cheap > > due to volume. F connectors are common to cable industry and if they > > needed Ts they would be cheap too. > > Actually, BNC Ts were quite common back then. They were used in radar test > sets quite a bit. OK, being military, they were still expensive... All MILSPEC items are more expensive due to the fact they are generally custom built and nonstandard. When it comes to commonly available items, the MILSPEC items are generally built to a higher rating or different than the common ones in durability. There's noting like having a cheap Taiwanese cable when you're out in the middle of nowhere doing an alignment on a radar unit in the elements. Many of the diehard ham radio people I know refuse to use the generic junk available and will wait up to a year to find surplus at dealers and government auctions. I'm not that fussy with ethernet since we aren't talking about a lot of energy in watts or frequency so the common BNC's work for that. The cables I use for my scopes are surplus MILSPEC though. I had an Artisoft setup known as "Simply Lantastic" that was ethernet/thinnet and came with it's own NE2000 cards, but instead of tees, BNC's and terminators, they used 1/8" phone plugs and two earphone jacks. The earphone jacks switched the terminators in or out as needed so it was auto-magic when the cable was removed. Bad thing was the plugs were prone to being pulled out slightly and not making a good connection, and therefore a nightmare (at first) to figure out for troubleshooting. From william at ans.net Mon Nov 2 14:12:55 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <363CBC85.E6963EA0@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: > The F still won't hold that much wattage due to the fact you're using the bare > single conductor of the cable itself to make the connection. The coax used for > most F connections also has low wattage capacities. Who's talking about how much power the connectors need to transfer? For networking, it is minimal. I would say that the original planners of 10base2 picked BNC because of their ease of use, durability, and availability. > All MILSPEC items are more expensive due to the fact they are generally custom > built and nonstandard. BNCs are not really custom built, as everyone uses them. The military BNC Ts were (and are) expensive because they are being gouged by the contractors (and old story). Sure, they are silver plated, high precision connectors with teflon innards and gold plated pins, but that does not elevate thier cost up into the hundreds of dollars (if I really was ambitious, I would dig up a reference to that). yes, its the $600 hammer all over again. William Donzelli william@ans.net From Marty at itgonline.com Mon Nov 2 14:15:25 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes aga Message-ID: <1998Nov02.151325.1767.155344@smtp.itgonline.com> ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 11/2/98 2:28 PM On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > Hey, I have a way better idea - since I know, you want to > get rid of your Poly88, I might offer you free staying for > lets say a week or so in Munich - This will be in a thousends > of stars class of housing wihe free pool, fresch air, > convieniant to the Deutsches Museum and my home, right > in the middle of the city. Great people, great hospitality, > and I might even supply a plasic sheet, so you don't get wet .... >>Can I get the same deal with a Commodore 64? Make that two of us Sam. I'll even through in the data cassette. Marty Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Nov02.142801.1767.74701; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 14:28:02 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id LAA29870; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:25:48 -0800 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id LAA52418 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:25:40 -0800 Received: from mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (mailhub2.ncal.verio.com [204.247.247.54]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id LAA07 975 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:25:39 -0800 Received: from shell1.ncal.verio.com (dastar@shell1.ncal.verio.com [204.247.248.254]) by mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02757 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:25:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:25:38 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Sam Ismail To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again In-Reply-To: <199811021828.TAA05654@marina.fth.sbs.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From ai705 at osfn.org Mon Nov 2 14:14:16 1998 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > Yes, "getter" is the word. > > Spefically, the getter is the wierd looking bit of metal that is near the > silverly coating on the tube, whose job is to get the residual and trapped > gas during manufacture. The keeper is the actual silvery coating, whose > job is to keep the oxygen in a state so it can not get rereleased. > Is this related to what I am about to ask? Could somebody do a short summary of why Fimi(?) greyscale megapixel NeXT monitors fade after 20,000 or so hours of use and indicate whether there are any other monitors (perhaps some classic) that show similar problems? -- Stephen Dauphin From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 2 14:28:29 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) In-Reply-To: <199811021936.LAA25409@saul2.u.washington.edu> References: <3.0.5.32.19981102091629.00d21c50@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981102142829.00f08e30@pc> At 11:36 AM 11/2/98 -0800, D. Peschel wrote: > >I knew there was a reliance on shared memory, but I didn't know it was that >deep. Are you talking just about the custom hardware? [...] >Or does the OS rely on shared memory as well? (by being nosy about its own >routines, perhaps) Yes, certainly the custom chips (for blitting and sound) relied on the shared "chip" memory area, but the most elemental part of the OS, message passing and "ports", relied on deeply-ingrained notions of all those bits of memory being visible to all processes. That's not to say that it would be impossible to bolt VM and an MMU on that, but it's tough to do retroactively. - John From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Nov 2 15:00:46 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <19981102210046.7621.qmail@hotmail.com> Actually, I'm wondering how those things work. Do they read the POST code off the motherboard, or do they do their own diagnosis? I've looked at the ads in various magazines, but never thought it had much potential. > >It's called POST, the last time I bought a POST board it was 59$ and >that was 3 years ago. it displays a two digit code that points to the >failed subsystem. > >IBM systems also displayed a code to the CRT (if working) that also told >the problem. > >Generally I've troubleshot PCs with nothing more than a VOM. Frequently >less. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Marty at itgonline.com Mon Nov 2 15:04:10 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: CRT decay Message-ID: <1998Nov02.160216.1767.155371@smtp.itgonline.com> ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: CRT decay Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 11/2/98 3:19 PM On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > Yes, "getter" is the word. > > Spefically, the getter is the wierd looking bit of metal that is near the > silverly coating on the tube, whose job is to get the residual and trapped > gas during manufacture. The keeper is the actual silvery coating, whose > job is to keep the oxygen in a state so it can not get rereleased. > >>Is this related to what I am about to ask? Could somebody do a short >>summary of why Fimi(?) greyscale megapixel NeXT monitors fade after >>20,000 or so hours of use and indicate whether there are any other >>monitors (perhaps some classic) that show similar problems? Neither the getter nor the phosphor should have anything at all to do with fading. The culprit is probably a weak cathode on the electron gun. The cathode isn't boiling off enough electrons to 'paint' the phosphor to the intensity needed. There used to be boosters available for older tv sets to goose additional life out of weak crt's. I've never heard of it in this case. Also, you can have old crt's rebuilt with new electron guns but this is VERY expensive. I would search for a replacement tube first. Marty -- Stephen Dauphin ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists5.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Nov02.151907.1767.74723; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:19:07 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id MAA28973; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:16:46 -0800 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA34600 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:16:40 -0800 Received: from osfn.org (ai705@osfn.org [155.212.105.100]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id MAA15 972 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:16:39 -0800 Received: (from ai705@localhost) by osfn.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA14575; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:14:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:14:16 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Stephen Dauphin To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: CRT decay In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Nov 2 14:58:05 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 Message-ID: <199811022103.QAA16593@gate.usaor.net> Hello everyone. I have an old Timex Sinclair 1000 computer that I recently got at Salvation Army for $.50 (they thought it was an organizer!). I bought it to do a presentation in my school on BASIC, but can't quite figure out how ot get it to work. First of all, the display constantly has an (approxamately) 2" wide (I'm using a 13" TV) black bar that rolls from the top to the bottom -constantly. Would this be caused by using the wrong type of adapter? I'm using a 9VDC 100mA adapter. Is this too little? Too much? Secondly, I can't seem to get it out of shortcut mode. I try to type "10 CLS", and I get "10 CONT LET SAVE". I know that the Sinclair had shortcus for the functions, but how do I get to the normal data-entry mode? I took it apart, and the board in it has a Zilog Z80A, a Ferranti chip (same size as Z80), a removable Sinclair Research chip, and a Toshiba chip. It says SINCLAIR ZX81 1981 (c). Anyone have info on this *tiny* computer? TIA, -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Nov 2 15:05:52 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: definition of personal computer Message-ID: <19981102210554.1672.qmail@hotmail.com> We're talking about different things. YOu're saying that a personal computer is any computer to which the adjective personal may be applied. I mean a phrase used by various manufacturers after the mid 70's >Personal computer: Any computer owned by a single individual rather than a >corporation or government entity. Alternately any computer with a low enough >aquisition and operation cost to BE owned by an individual. This fits this >group best, since especially the mini and mainframe collectors >have such animals as their "personal computers". > >The semantics become simple. >"What is this cray 1 you have in the basement?" >"It's my personal computer." > >The fact that they're also supers, mainframes, minis, or micros becomes >irrelivant. > >:) > > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Nov 2 15:16:40 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 In-Reply-To: <199811022103.QAA16593@gate.usaor.net> from "Jason Willgruber" at Nov 2, 98 03:58:05 pm Message-ID: <199811022116.NAA14516@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1322 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/0d95ee9a/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Nov 2 15:40:21 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: definition of personal computer In-Reply-To: <19981102210554.1672.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Nov 02, 1998 01:05:52 PM Message-ID: <199811022140.OAA27955@calico.litterbox.com> > We're talking about different things. YOu're saying that a personal > computer is any computer to which the adjective personal may be > applied. I mean a phrase used by various manufacturers after the mid > 70's I was making a small joke (a very small joke, Mr. Checkov). Note the smiley. > >:) Seriously though, the advent of 32 and 64 bit desktop boxes has so muddied the definition the term "personal computer" has long since ceased to have any meaning hardware wise. Likewise it has destroyed the categories of workstation, and minicomputer, since again, you can get a 64 bit alpha "workstation" or "minicomputer" in a wintel case for a wintel price and put it on your desk. It seems to me computers have become so ubiquitus it's better to describe them by what they DO, or maybe something about their architecture or what OS they have loaded. An example: I have a win95 p2 box on my desk, connected by a lan to a dx4 Linux box I'm using as a server. Which is the personal computer? Which is the minicomputer? No clue. Which is my "workstation?" I guess that would be the one on my desk, as opposed to the one 3 feet away on the shelves with its monitor turned off. Which one is my win95 box? which one is hte linux server machine? Those are meaningful questions. As far as mainframes go, I'm told by members of this list that mainframes are MUCH more transaction oriented, so there is still a clear distinction between THEM and the rest of the world. You could argue that personal computer now means your PDA. Although THAT water is now being muddied by that wierd thing Apple built that runs newton's OS but is the size of a laptop. A few years from now, personal computer might mean the ones implanted in your body. (hint. Don't use any bionics with rev x.0 software. You could die of the crash) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From marvin at rain.org Mon Nov 2 15:46:03 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: POST Codes was Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt References: <19981102210046.7621.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <363E281A.ECE0B5D2@rain.org> Max Eskin wrote: > > Actually, I'm wondering how those things work. Do they read the POST > code off the motherboard, or do they do their own diagnosis? I've > looked at the ads in various magazines, but never thought it had > much potential. Basically, the bios startup routines output a number to a port address as they start each part of the test, and that number is displayed on the POST card. I/O port 180h comes to mind for the IBM (it is different for Compaq) but my memory may be faulty. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 12:36:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <363D2DFF.18A5@swbell.net> from "Mitch Wright" at Nov 1, 98 09:58:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 962 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/f68e4159/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 12:42:35 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <199811020412.AA06011@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 1, 98 11:12:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1213 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/dfb793d1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 12:48:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <199811020413.AA06142@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 1, 98 11:13:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1142 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/5a664239/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 12:53:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Nov 1, 98 10:23:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1136 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/f4c81be1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 13:00:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Nov 2, 98 09:57:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 799 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/8b1c8fc0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 13:04:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981102093509.00d29e00@pc> from "John Foust" at Nov 2, 98 09:35:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1427 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/3034a294/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 13:20:23 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Reparing Classics (was Re: PDP-11/44 Boot Prompt) In-Reply-To: <199811021638.LAA28415@user2.infinet.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 2, 98 11:38:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4137 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/c43feed3/attachment.ksh From dogas at leading.net Mon Nov 2 16:12:50 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Reparing Classics (was Re: PDP-11/44 Boot Prompt) Message-ID: <01be06ad$ee334980$d5c962cf@devlaptop> Tony... I have one word for you, pal.... vallium.... heh Mike: dogas@leading.net From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Nov 2 16:17:40 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 Message-ID: <199811022219.RAA07287@gate.usaor.net> > Guess what? You don't. The Sinclairs *only* accepted keywords with the > key combinations! The appropriate keywords should be printed on the keyboard. > Not until the Spectrum +3 were you finally able to enter keywords in longhand. > O.K. How do I enter programs, then, such as 10 CLS 20 PRINT "HELLO"; 30 GOTO 20 if I can't enter things such as the "hello"? > > 1K computer, video entirely via TTL logic, Z80A at 3.5MHz. RAM expansion > available; 80x50 (I think) character graphics in B&W. Identical to the > British Sinclair ZX80 and ZX81, and scads of info are there for the taking > on the Web. > ThAnX, -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 2 16:14:23 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19981102093509.00d29e00@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981102161423.00939ba0@pc> At 07:04 PM 11/2/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > >Yes, but fortunately the starting date doesn't move forwards as well. In >other words, OK, some 386 PCs with custom chips in them are now classics >on this list (I have a problem with saying that, BTW...). I tend to agree with you. Discussion of ten-year-old IBM PC clones isn't as interesting. Dare I cause a schism by suggesting that the ten-year-rule be changed to "computers first made before 19xx?" I'll leave the date open to debate. :-) - John From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Nov 2 16:39:58 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust@threedee.com] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 2:14 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Classic != IBM AT > > > At 07:04 PM 11/2/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > >Yes, but fortunately the starting date doesn't move forwards as well. In > >other words, OK, some 386 PCs with custom chips in them are now classics > >on this list (I have a problem with saying that, BTW...). > > I tend to agree with you. Discussion of ten-year-old IBM PC clones > isn't as interesting. Dare I cause a schism by suggesting that > the ten-year-rule be changed to "computers first made before 19xx?" > I'll leave the date open to debate. :-) I think the significance of these later pieces depends on the fragmentation of the market. There was only one IBM AT, it was the first 80286 IBM machine, and created the 16-bit ISA bus that is still found in machines today. That's pretty significant. At the 80386 introduction, there were two firsts -- the Compaq Deskpro 386 and the IBM PS/2 80 (the Compaq was first, as I recall). Those machines are borderline collectable, in my opinion. By the time the 80486 rolled around, there were no firsts, the industry had evolved to a group of OEMs serviced by Intel, of which IBM was only a peer. Had EISA taken off, perhaps the first EISA machine would have been collectible, but personally, I don't think there is anything in the x86 desktop arena after the Deskpro 386-PS/2 80 that's collectible. Late '80s to present, the only things of interest are pioneering units of other architectures and/or form factors, such as the Newton OMP (Original MessagePad), NeXt cube, etc. Kai From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Nov 2 16:45:31 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 In-Reply-To: <199811022219.RAA07287@gate.usaor.net> from "Jason Willgruber" at Nov 2, 98 05:17:40 pm Message-ID: <199811022245.OAA15544@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1482 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/4080e93f/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Nov 2 16:46:37 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:02 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 In-Reply-To: <199811022219.RAA07287@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > O.K. How do I enter programs, then, such as > > 10 CLS > 20 PRINT "HELLO"; > 30 GOTO 20 > > if I can't enter things such as the "hello"? Once you hit the PRINT key it then allows you to freely enter the string (or variable) you want to print. In other words, what you can type is sensitive to the context of the keyword. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Nov 2 16:47:14 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 In-Reply-To: <199811022219.RAA07287@gate.usaor.net> from "Jason Willgruber" at Nov 2, 98 05:17:40 pm Message-ID: <199811022247.OAA14311@saul5.u.washington.edu> > > Guess what? You don't. The Sinclairs *only* accepted keywords with the > O.K. How do I enter programs, then, such as > > 10 CLS > 20 PRINT "HELLO"; > 30 GOTO 20 > > if I can't enter things such as the "hello"? Well, you *can* do that (once you enter a quote mark -- I think it's one of the shortcut keys; it might possibly be produced by the PRINT key but I doubt it.) Then when you enter the closing quote mark, you get back into shortcut mode. You just can't enter BASIC keywords the same way you enter text. BTW, you can tell the current mode by the appearance of the cursor. "K" = Keyword, for example. I think there are also "U" and "L" for upper- and lower- case letters. Look at the PC (or Mac) emulators out there; the good ones come with a "pop- up" keyboard reference window and enough directions to get you started. It's a cute machine but more known for its "oh, is *that* how that works?" engineering than its elegance. Even when you expand it you still have a cute, idiosyncratic machine. -- Derek From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Nov 2 16:57:23 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 02, 1998 06:48:20 PM Message-ID: <199811022257.PAA28398@calico.litterbox.com> The best guide to troubleshooting in general (it's actually written for air cooled VWs, but it gives you the right philosophy) is John Muir's "How to Keep your Volkswagon Alive, a manual of step by step instructions for the compleat idiot" It has a section called "VW stops, won't start." It gives a VERY scientific way of going through step by step what's required for the car to run. Things like: "Step 1. Check fuel. Sounds silly, but how about gasoline. Go to the front of the type I, III, and IV (types of VWs) or to the side of the bus and take off the gas cap and rock the car. If you hear the sound of silence, go get some gasoline to pour in the tank. If you hear a swishing noise, and have no fuel gauge, check the reserve valve to make sure its open and if it is, go on to the next step." The important thing for computer trouble shooters to get from this book is not how to fix a VW (although when I bought it I had one). It's to start with the condition "okay, what doesn't work?" and think about what (in broad terms) is required for it to work, and systematically make sure those things are there. It's also a hoot to read. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 2 16:53:47 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981102165347.00944a90@pc> At 02:39 PM 11/2/98 -0800, you wrote: >At the 80386 introduction, there were >two firsts -- the Compaq Deskpro 386 and the IBM PS/2 80 (the Compaq was >first, as I recall). Those machines are borderline collectable, in my >opinion. And when you look at the machines churned out by Gateway et al, the composition of the parts inside the box changes day by day. How can that be collectible? I have stacks of early PCs in the basement just because I keep telling myself I'll find a use for them someday, or that I'll revive them enough to make them worthwhile charitable contributions to someone, somewhere. My local mom-and-pop computer store says they'd rather have me donate them to someone - because then I'm on the the hook for subsequent charitable tech support. :-) - John From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Nov 2 17:03:10 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981102161423.00939ba0@pc> from "John Foust" at Nov 02, 1998 04:14:23 PM Message-ID: <199811022303.QAA28440@calico.litterbox.com> > At 07:04 PM 11/2/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > >Yes, but fortunately the starting date doesn't move forwards as well. In > >other words, OK, some 386 PCs with custom chips in them are now classics > >on this list (I have a problem with saying that, BTW...). > > I tend to agree with you. Discussion of ten-year-old IBM PC clones > isn't as interesting. Dare I cause a schism by suggesting that > the ten-year-rule be changed to "computers first made before 19xx?" > I'll leave the date open to debate. :-) > > - John Personally I don't have a problem if people want to discuss early PCs here. I agree there are better forums for a lot of it, but as older styles of PCs, say, VLB and EISA become more and more obselete, those other forums will gradually know less and less about them, and they become more and more our bailiwick. Personally I too find the discussions about old DEC mini's and apple 2's to be of the most interest because I know something about those machines, but I'm not willing to say we shouldn't discuss early PCs or Macs. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Nov 2 17:13:18 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: Stephen Dauphin's message of Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:14:16 -0500 (EST) References: Message-ID: <199811022313.PAA11663@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Stephen Dauphin wrote: > Is this related to what I am about to ask? Could somebody do a short > summary of why Fimi(?) greyscale megapixel NeXT monitors fade after > 20,000 or so hours of use and indicate whether there are any other > monitors (perhaps some classic) that show similar problems? Because St*v* J*bs is really in the collectibles business and applies principles of planned obsolescence to make sure his computers become more valuable over time? Don't CRT filaments degrade with use? I've seen this on other workstation monitors from Sun and HP, typically ones that were used as consoles and left on 24x7. Unfortunately, for all the design that went into the NeXT, they seem to have omitted the power switch on the monitor. Also I vaguely remember, back in the days when a TV set was a big-ticket item, the local TV repairman had cylindrical devices called "boosters" that could be inserted in the circuit between the plug on the back of the CRT and the set's CRT socket to extend the life of a dim picture tube. I don't really know what it did, but I suppose it was something like a step-up transformer for the CRT filament voltage. -Frank McConnell From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Nov 2 17:26:01 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 Message-ID: <199811022330.SAA23832@gate.usaor.net> O.K. At least Now I know how to program. Not to get that annoying bar out of there. Iven if it is sort of a pain to program, it's still a neat little computer. Looks sort of like a mini CoCo 1. Does anyone know what the "ear" and "mic" jacks are for (I know what they're for, I just want to know WHY they're there). It's the only BASIC machine I've seen with a MIC plug. Or is it to connect a tape deck to? -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Cameron Kaiser > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 > Date: Monday, November 02, 1998 5:45 PM > > As I remember, the editor automatically switches modes for you, i.e., > having entered PRINT, it goes to character mode. At least on the Spectrum + > (pulls up emulator), this is what happens. (Assume [X] represents a cursor > showing letter X.) > <<<>>> > The keywords thing is maddening, one of the quirks that rapidly turned me > off the Sinclairs. However, they are still fun little things to play with, > even if I get a lot more practical stuff done with my Commodore 128. > > -- > -------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database Programmer > Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 > ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 > -- Generating random numbers is too important to be left to chance. ----------- From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Nov 2 17:28:46 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 Message-ID: <199811022330.SAA23843@gate.usaor.net> Exactly. I like it because: 1) - it was only 50 cents 2) - it is kind of cute. Looks like a mini CoCo 1 (in the fact that it's silver) 3) - it's small 4) - it's going to save me a bunch of trouble than taking my Apple //c and disks to school for my presentation :-) -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ > > It's a cute machine but more known for its "oh, is *that* how that works?" > engineering than its elegance. Even when you expand it you still have a cute, > idiosyncratic machine. > > -- Derek From yowza at yowza.com Mon Nov 2 17:39:28 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: IMLAC PDS-1 WebShrine 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199811022330.SAA23832@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: I'm depressed. I pulled a few flip-chip-like cards from my PDS-1 and there is extensive corrosion damage :-( I've contacted another PDS-1 owner, and he has documentation, including printsets, so there's a chance this one may live again someday. In the meantime, please visit my PDS-1 shrine: http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/imlac/ -- Doug From ai705 at osfn.org Mon Nov 2 17:45:37 1998 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 In-Reply-To: <199811022330.SAA23832@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > O.K. At least Now I know how to program. Not to get that annoying bar out > of there. I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Solid? Translucent? Seems to me from the few Timex models I've seen in action, the video is not so hot. Can be tempermental depending what TV it is hooked to. Bad sync (not rock stable), noisy and rather unsharp. Cheap design and manufacture all around. At least it translated to a cheap price. > Does anyone know what the "ear" and "mic" jacks are for (I know what > they're for, I just want to know WHY they're there). It's the only BASIC > machine I've seen with a MIC plug. Or is it to connect a tape deck to? Bingo. Save your own programs or use commercial ones. There are a few programs of the "home accounting" ilk released by Timex Sinclair as cassettes. -- Stephen Dauphin From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Nov 2 17:58:11 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 In-Reply-To: <199811022330.SAA23832@gate.usaor.net> from "Jason Willgruber" at Nov 2, 98 06:26:01 pm Message-ID: <199811022358.PAA14602@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 648 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/ee038d11/attachment.ksh From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Nov 2 18:08:12 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 Message-ID: <199811030014.TAA03520@gate.usaor.net> > I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Solid? Translucent? Seems to me from > the few Timex models I've seen in action, the video is not so hot. Can be > tempermental depending what TV it is hooked to. Bad sync (not rock > stable), noisy and rather unsharp. Cheap design and manufacture all > around. At least it translated to a cheap price. > Well, there's a gray background, with black lettering. The bar(s) are solid black, and are about 2" wide, and scroll from the top to the bottom. It does this on every TV I connect it to. > > Bingo. Save your own programs or use commercial ones. There are a few > programs of the "home accounting" ilk released by Timex Sinclair as > cassettes. > Hmm.. Cheap design shows through here, too. There's not even a connector to hook up the "motor remote" on the cassette. You have to turn it on and off yourself (or have a VSR tape deck). All in all, even though bigger, the CoCo is about 2k times better (bigger IS better...). -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Nov 2 18:26:12 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 In-Reply-To: <199811030014.TAA03520@gate.usaor.net> from "Jason Willgruber" at Nov 2, 98 07:08:12 pm Message-ID: <199811030026.QAA11204@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 848 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/caaaf6a4/attachment.ksh From bjorn at ktb.net Mon Nov 2 18:27:57 1998 From: bjorn at ktb.net (Bjorn T. Eng) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd) Message-ID: Hi! Anybody else see this one? I wonder what kind of documentation he has to "support" that "The current value of an Apple I computer is $40,000+" Is he referring to the one that was sold for a charity? Bjorn Eng ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 2 Nov 1998 14:05:39 GMT From: David Selinger Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale Keywords: Apple 1 Apple I Wozniak Steve Jobs Computer Subject: Apple 1 Computer For Sale - Historic Rare Museum Piece Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Organization: CTS Network Services (CTSNET), San Diego, CA Summary: For Sale (FS) RARE Apple I (Apple 1) 1976 Computer System Keywords: Apple I Apple 1 For Sale Antique Computer vintage computer Wozniak Steve Jobs I am offering for sale to the highest bidder an original 1976 Apple I (Apple 1) Computer System - museum quality (one is in the Smithsonian in Washington, D.C. - see their web page.) It includes: Main processor board with original chips. User Operations manual with schematic BASIC programming User's manual which came with Apple I Tape interface daughter board BASIC cassette tape Original one-sheet advertisement What it doesn't include (because Apple Computer Co. did not sell this equipment with the computer -- the user supplied it himself): keyboard, and TV. This computer is for display purposes only -- not for actual use as a computer. Though I used it as a working computer in the past, the ravages of time has likely make it inoperative. Important Additional Information: Only 200 were ever made (Steve Wozniak interview, Byte Magazine, December 1984, page A69). Of those 200, many have likely been lost or destroyed, thereby making the surviving computers worth much more because of their increased scarcity. Minimum price for starting the bidding is $25,000.00. The current value of an Apple I computer is $40,000+. Documentation to support this fact will be provided upon request. A color photo to interested parties will also be provided upon request. I am also offering a 10% finder's fee to any person who finds a legitimate buyer with whom I actually consumate the sale. For example, finding a buyer who agrees to buy the computer for $40,000.00 will mean a $4,000.00 finders fee to the person who finds the buyer. This offer of a finder's fee however is valid for only two (2) months and expires on midnight Dec. 31, 1998. Send email bids, or referrals to potential buyers to this email address: dave314x@cts.com I reserve the right to reject or accept any and all bids. Dave. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 17:42:44 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: from "Stephen Dauphin" at Nov 2, 98 03:14:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2559 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/dcec46ff/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 17:54:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 In-Reply-To: <199811022103.QAA16593@gate.usaor.net> from "Jason Willgruber" at Nov 2, 98 03:58:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2164 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/a2b5d369/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 17:30:03 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Microvaxen bits etc. In-Reply-To: <363CBC85.E6963EA0@bigfoot.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at Nov 1, 98 01:54:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1631 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/d8f47a5b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 17:58:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <19981102210046.7621.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Nov 2, 98 01:00:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 800 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/297e054f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 17:30:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <802566B0.00609B10.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Nov 2, 98 05:38:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 125 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981102/c9e7cd4f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 18:37:29 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981102161423.00939ba0@pc> from "John Foust" at Nov 2, 98 04:14:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 583 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981103/005d5c6e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 18:41:26 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 In-Reply-To: <199811022330.SAA23832@gate.usaor.net> from "Jason Willgruber" at Nov 2, 98 06:26:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 466 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981103/6bc3b871/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 18:43:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 In-Reply-To: <199811030026.QAA11204@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Nov 2, 98 04:26:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 395 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981103/40a405c7/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Nov 2 19:34:21 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 In-Reply-To: <199811022330.SAA23843@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > 2) - it is kind of cute. Looks like a mini CoCo 1 (in the fact that it's > silver) Silver? Are you sure this isn't the 1500? The TimexSinclair 1000 is black. > 4) - it's going to save me a bunch of trouble than taking my Apple //c and > disks to school for my presentation :-) Demonstrating the Apple //c would have been a lot easier software wise. Where are you going to get the TV to plug the TS into? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Nov 2 19:54:01 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 Message-ID: <199811030155.UAA26826@gate.usaor.net> > > Silver? Are you sure this isn't the 1500? The TimexSinclair 1000 is > black. > Yep. The top is silver, with a black keyboard, and the bart on the bottom (looks like it should be part of the top, but isn't) is silver. The rest of it is black (bottom). I'll try to get a picture of it up on my website in the near future. > > Demonstrating the Apple //c would have been a lot easier software wise. > Where are you going to get the TV to plug the TS into? > The school has a 25" TV that they're going to let me use. It may have been a bit easier, as far as programming goes, but the Sinclair is a bit easier to sarry around, and I won't really worry if it gets banged around (as long as it's AFTER the presentation), since there's nothing mechanical on it that'll break such as a disk drive). The shortcuts amy save a little time, too, once I get the hang of them (and the tiny keyboard). -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ From rexstout at uswest.net Mon Nov 2 19:26:32 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I don't think there is anything in the x86 desktop arena >after the Deskpro 386-PS/2 80 that's collectible. Hmm.. Would the 486 system I had a while back count? I forget who made it, model A3000. 486DX/33 AMD CPU and FPU and some other chips were on a small daughterboard that fit into a slot in the front of the computer, which interfaced to an MCA slot... Now that's gotta be wierd for anything. Closest thing to that I can think of is the hard drives IBM used in some PS/2's that interfaced directly to the MCA bus(interface built in to the drive's controller board with a cable going to the MCA riser card in the Model 30-286 and maybe the 55sx too). That 486 was fun, wish I still had it... :-| -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Nov 2 20:26:48 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: CRT decay (OT) Message-ID: <19981103022650.21673.qmail@hotmail.com> While we're talking about CRTs, I want to ask if anyone has heard of any problems with Digital VGA monitors, about 4 years old. We installed a lab full of them, and when I turned them on, two lost the magic white smoke, and more have various other problems. >> Is this related to what I am about to ask? Could somebody do a short >> summary of why Fimi(?) greyscale megapixel NeXT monitors fade after > >Fimi monitors seem to be related to Philips, but just try getting a service >manual for one. > >> 20,000 or so hours of use and indicate whether there are any other >> monitors (perhaps some classic) that show similar problems? > >The most likely cause is the CRT cathode is losing emission (basically >it's not sending enough electrons to the screen). But it could also be a >low electode voltage on the CRT, a problem with the brightness control, etc. > >It's time to mention a trick that's saved me a lot of time over the >years, even though it's too late for you to use it. When I get a monitor, >whether new, or part of a classic computer, or whatever, the first thing >I do is pull the case and note down the CRT electrode voltages and any >other testpoints I think might be useful (PSU outputs, etc). If I have a >service manual/schematic, then I note them in there. If not, then it's >normally easy to find the CRT pinouts at least and I write down the >voltages in a suitable place, such as the user manual. Even a label stuck >inside the case. > >Then, if the picture starts to fade, I can check the voltages again to >see if there are any problems. > >OK, if it is the CRT emission (and I've had this happen on large mono >monitors), then you may be looking for a new CRT. There are CRT >reactivation devices (basically they run the heater at about 20% >overvoltage and apply a high voltage, about 200V, between the cathode and >1st grid), but modern CRTs don't normally respond too well. Sometimes >overrunning the CRT heater all the time (it's unlikely you'd burn it out) >will help. There are all sorts of tricks for that, including wrapping a >couple of turns of wire round the core of the flyback and connecting it >in series with the heater supply. If the heater is already supplied by >the flyback, then you need to try the new winding both ways round. The >way that brightens the heater and picture is the right one. > >Incidentally, a lot of micros, video terminals, etc use 12" mono CRTs. >There are basically only 2 types - thin neck, 7 pin, 11V heater and thick >neck, 8 pin, 6.3V heater. A good source of the former is old portable >TVs. If you can get a portable TV with a good tube, perhaps with flyback >or tuner problems, the CRT will probably go into a TRS-80 Model 3 or a >VT100, or.. with only a few mods, if any. > > >> >> >> -- Stephen Dauphin >> > > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Nov 2 20:32:56 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 Message-ID: <19981103023257.29927.qmail@hotmail.com> That's kinda cool in a twisted Word 97 sort of way. Context sensitive BASIC...I'm wondering if this is where MS got their idea. You see, in Visual Basic 5, it shows the syntax for the function I'm typing, and also can complete it. Why is the Sinclair hated disliked if it had what seems to be a useful feature? >> O.K. How do I enter programs, then, such as >> >> 10 CLS >> 20 PRINT "HELLO"; >> 30 GOTO 20 >> >> if I can't enter things such as the "hello"? > >Once you hit the PRINT key it then allows you to freely enter the string >(or variable) you want to print. In other words, what you can type is >sensitive to the context of the keyword. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 11/02/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 2 19:26:13 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Honeywell DPS/6 (was Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: you'd have to be a glutten for punishment! I've used them, GCOS-6 isn't my idea of a fun time. Of course most of my experience was with a DPS-8 and GCOS-8 (not much fun either). I hope whoever get's it also good set of Doc's both for the software and the Hardware! If those are the Honeywell drives I suspect, they're a pain. BTW, the Navy used the DPS-6 for Supply computers, and started retiring them in 1994. They also used them for other things. If you can find any old "Data Processing Technicians" that never throw anything out, you might be able to find some doc's if they went to any of the Honeywell schools, most tossed the books after the class. Honeywell did have good training, and most classes provided you with great manuals. I never took any DPS-6 classes so not sure what all they had, all my docs are for programming the DPS-8. Zane >> Oh yeah? Where? > > > >Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 08:26:32 -0500 >From: Russ Kreigh >To: william@ans.net >Subject: Re: Wanted: older computer stuff > >Honeywell DPS/6 Minicomputer >2 Big 6 foot tape drives > >Located in northeast indiana > > > >Contact him. > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From kyrrin at jps.net Mon Nov 2 20:41:15 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: 386's available Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981102184115.0095b210@mail.jps.net> If anyone wants what sound like 386SX machines, here's your chance. Please contact the author directly if interested. Thanks! -=-=- -=-=- >Sender: mann@pa.dec.com >Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:49:01 -0800 >From: Tim Mann >Organization: DEC Systems Research Center >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; OSF1 V4.0 alpha) >To: kyrrin@jps.net >Do you know of anyone who wants old 386 systems (preferably in the SF >Bay area)? I have one that actually has a CDROM, soundcard, 500 MB hard >drive, and 10 MB of RAM, but the poor old 386 only runs at 20 MHz, so >the machine is painfully slow. > >-- >Tim Mann , Compaq Systems Research Center >http://www.research.digital.com/SRC/personal/Tim_Mann/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From spc at armigeron.com Tue Nov 3 21:36:50 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) In-Reply-To: <199811021936.LAA25409@saul2.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Nov 2, 98 11:36:46 am Message-ID: <199811040336.WAA13496@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4487 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981103/0f9bc51b/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Nov 2 20:51:37 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: CRT decay (OT) In-Reply-To: <19981103022650.21673.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Nov 02, 1998 06:26:48 PM Message-ID: <199811030251.TAA29424@calico.litterbox.com> > While we're talking about CRTs, I want to ask if anyone has heard of > any problems with Digital VGA monitors, about 4 years old. We > installed a lab full of them, and when I turned them on, two lost the > magic white smoke, and more have various other problems. My experience with DEC monitors is somewhat earlier on vaxstations, and THEY had a reputation for smoking. I smoked one. It went on working but quietly was venting smoke almost directly into an air handler intake duct so we thought we had a fire on another floor. It took me a while before I noticed the smoke rising out of my monitor. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From spc at armigeron.com Tue Nov 3 21:44:59 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981102142829.00f08e30@pc> from "John Foust" at Nov 2, 98 02:28:29 pm Message-ID: <199811040344.WAA13514@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1363 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981103/11728ff4/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 2 21:01:40 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) In-Reply-To: <199811040344.WAA13514@armigeron.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19981102142829.00f08e30@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981102210140.00c4e670@pc> At 10:44 PM 11/3/98 -0500, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >It was thus said that the Great John Foust once stated: Yes, I was once known as "the father of Amiga journalism", and own A1000 number #35. You're preaching (expositing?) to the choir. :-) >> Yes, certainly the custom chips (for blitting and sound) relied on >> the shared "chip" memory area, > > Yes and no. No, "yes." The custom chips relied on shared "chip" memory. - John From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Nov 2 21:21:32 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT Message-ID: <199811030329.WAA18270@gate.usaor.net> The PS/2 Model 30=286 didn't have a cable going to the riser card in it, nor was it an MCA machine. It was an ISA machine, and The HD plugged into the motherboard via ribbon cable. I'm not even sure if it was an ESDI drive. I think it was just an MFM that had everything (including power) on one cable. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: John Rollins > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: Classic != IBM AT > Date: Monday, November 02, 1998 8:26 PM > > > Hmm.. Would the 486 system I had a while back count? I forget who made it, > model A3000. 486DX/33 AMD CPU and FPU and some other chips were on a small > daughterboard that fit into a slot in the front of the computer, which > interfaced to an MCA slot... Now that's gotta be wierd for anything. > Closest thing to that I can think of is the hard drives IBM used in some > PS/2's that interfaced directly to the MCA bus(interface built in to the > drive's controller board with a cable going to the MCA riser card in the > Model 30-286 and maybe the 55sx too). That 486 was fun, wish I still had > it... :-| > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | > | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | > | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | > | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Nov 2 21:27:02 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 Message-ID: <199811030329.WAA18285@gate.usaor.net> Part of it may have been the dippy little keyboard that it had, or the fact that it only came with 1k or RAM (standard). If it had a larger keyboard, instead of the tiny plastic membranes, then the idea *MAY* have caught on. I wonder if ther'd be some way to either put a new keyboard on it (say, from a laptop), or somehow make it into an expansion unit for something like a TRS-80, almost like a CoCo cartridge. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Max Eskin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 > Date: Monday, November 02, 1998 9:32 PM > > > > > That's kinda cool in a twisted Word 97 sort of way. Context sensitive > BASIC...I'm wondering if this is where MS got their idea. You see, in > Visual Basic 5, it shows the syntax for the function I'm typing, and > also can complete it. Why is the Sinclair hated disliked if it had > what seems to be a useful feature? From jruschme at exit109.com Mon Nov 2 21:55:38 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 In-Reply-To: <199811030329.WAA18285@gate.usaor.net> from Jason Willgruber at "Nov 2, 98 10:27:02 pm" Message-ID: <199811030355.WAA12448@crobin.home.org> > Part of it may have been the dippy little keyboard that it had, or the fact > that it only came with 1k or RAM (standard). If it had a larger keyboard, > instead of the tiny plastic membranes, then the idea *MAY* have caught on. > > > I wonder if ther'd be some way to either put a new keyboard on it (say, > from a laptop), or somehow make it into an expansion unit for something > like a TRS-80, almost like a CoCo cartridge. As I recall, replacement keyboards were a fairly standard "accessory" for the ZX-81. Ususally the idea was to remove the circuit board and drop it into a larger case with a real keyboard. The magazines at the time also usually printed sets of plans for taking some kind of surplus keyboard (TI-994A, etc.) and reworking it for the Sinclair. That, and the odd company making keyboard overlays to give a more real feel. <<> From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 2 22:25:57 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt Message-ID: <199811030425.AA06497@world.std.com> < Actually, I'm wondering how those things work. Do they read the POST < code off the motherboard, or do they do their own diagnosis? I've < looked at the ads in various magazines, but never thought it had < much potential. POST is in reality a dumb I/O port with a two digit display. The BIOS power up self test writes codes to it depending on errors or success. It allows a bit more informative display if the video board or tube is croaked. Generally I can trouble shoot without one using known good boards as swaps. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 2 22:26:04 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: CRT decay Message-ID: <199811030426.AA06546@world.std.com> < Don't CRT filaments degrade with use? I've seen this on other < workstation monitors from Sun and HP, typically ones that were used as It the common characteristic of all valves (tubes) with heated cathodes that over time emission will decay and gain(brightness) goes away with it. < big-ticket item, the local TV repairman had cylindrical devices called < "boosters" that could be inserted in the circuit between the plug on < the back of the CRT and the set's CRT socket to extend the life of a It got back some emission for a while but the overvoltage generally killed the tube. < dim picture tube. I don't really know what it did, but I suppose it < was something like a step-up transformer for the CRT filament voltage. That was it's exact function. Poor emision is something I really haven't seen in years on CRTs. Thats due to improved materials. Burnt phosphor is more common. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 2 22:26:11 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 Message-ID: <199811030426.AA06610@world.std.com> < Does anyone know what the "ear" and "mic" jacks are for (I know what < they're for, I just want to know WHY they're there). It's the only BASI < machine I've seen with a MIC plug. Or is it to connect a tape deck to? Hook up a tape recorder to it so you can save programs and recover them. Crude but it works. Allison From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Nov 2 22:33:11 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT Message-ID: <439012d5.363e8787@aol.com> the drive was indeed mfm. the models 50 and 70 had drives that connected to a riser card which then went to the planar. there were no cables on the 50 or 70. david In a message dated 11/2/98 10:30:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time, roblwill@usaor.net writes: > The PS/2 Model 30=286 didn't have a cable going to the riser card in it, > nor was it an MCA machine. It was an ISA machine, and The HD plugged into > the motherboard via ribbon cable. I'm not even sure if it was an ESDI > drive. I think it was just an MFM that had everything (including power) on > one cable. > > -Jason From rexstout at uswest.net Mon Nov 2 22:35:10 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: <199811030329.WAA18270@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: >The PS/2 Model 30=286 didn't have a cable going to the riser card in it, >nor was it an MCA machine. It was an ISA machine, and The HD plugged into >the motherboard via ribbon cable. I'm not even sure if it was an ESDI >drive. I think it was just an MFM that had everything (including power) on >one cable. That's right... My memory is fading! Quick, install some more 256k SIMMs!!! The 30-286 had an ST-125L. A most interesting drive. The 55sx was the one I'm thinking of, and I think you can swap them to the 50z, too. In the 50z, the drive slips in behind the floppy drive(s) and plugs directly into an MCA card. The drives are ESDI. That was something that really suprised me, not being able to find a power cable. Drove me NUTS. And it shows. When it comes to PC's, the PS/2 line has to be my favorite. When I'm not cursing IBM, that is... -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Nov 2 22:38:10 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 Message-ID: <6959ae6b.363e88b2@aol.com> somebody gave me this computer who built it and the power supply into a wooden case, complete with a composite tube. this person also hacked a keyboard on it, complete with some crude circuitry on a tinybreadboard that was mounted very haphazardly on a piece of plexiglass along with the keyboard! ah, homebuilt computing at its finest. however, it doesnt work at the moment so once i find schematics, i'll start isolating the problem. david In a message dated 11/2/98 10:32:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time, roblwill@usaor.net writes: > Part of it may have been the dippy little keyboard that it had, or the fact > that it only came with 1k or RAM (standard). If it had a larger keyboard, > instead of the tiny plastic membranes, then the idea *MAY* have caught on. > > > I wonder if ther'd be some way to either put a new keyboard on it (say, > from a laptop), or somehow make it into an expansion unit for something > like a TRS-80, almost like a CoCo cartridge. From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 2 23:01:45 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: About VCF 2.0 and system design In-Reply-To: <199811021944.AA29571@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > What blows that all to dust is a machine like mine. The box is > kaypro-1 (81-021) written all over the outside but, the board is > apparently 4-84 and it's equipped with handyman, Advent turbo rom > and a 2mb Ramdisk. I tell people it says kaypro-1 (number 1!) and > they say two full height drives with slots horizontal but, mine has > two half height two sided drives mounted vertical. Apparently it > was a 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 Fochevromercysler! The Kaypro 1 was about the last 8-bit machine that they built, Allison. I am a bit fuzzy on it - haven't seen that many - but it seems to me that it did have the drives mounted vertical. As issued, it had an 81-294 motherboard, and the 81-478 (U-ROM) EPROM. I believe that it had the in-built modem and real-time clock as well. The Turbo-ROM was a major improvement! > PS: Fochevromercysler was one name given to a a mishmash of engine, > transmission body, suspension parts that came from Ford, Chevy, Mercury, > Chrysler. Seems a friend of mine had no loyalty to any one car. - don From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Nov 3 00:28:31 1998 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: CRT decay Message-ID: <001a01be06f3$39bc1680$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 3 November 1998 15:59 Subject: Re: CRT decay >< Don't CRT filaments degrade with use? I've seen this on other >< workstation monitors from Sun and HP, typically ones that were used as > >It the common characteristic of all valves (tubes) with heated cathodes >that over time emission will decay and gain(brightness) goes away with >it. > >< big-ticket item, the local TV repairman had cylindrical devices called >< "boosters" that could be inserted in the circuit between the plug on >< the back of the CRT and the set's CRT socket to extend the life of a > >It got back some emission for a while but the overvoltage generally >killed the tube. There is another method that is frequently employed on "tired' tubes. It involves putting and exceptionally high pulsed + potential on the 1st Grid of the tube, whilst simultaneously running the heater at about 30% overvoltage. This had the effect of blasting layers of tired cathodic material off the cathode, exposing less depleted stuff underneath it. Depending on the tube, this could restore performance for days or years. There doesn't seem to be any way to tell in advance. I have seen both extremes. There is a very old Philips K9 chassis TV dating from about 1976 that had this done some 3 or 4 years ago when it got too dark to watch, and cranking up the beam current caused flaring. The tube came right up to very bright and sharp, and is still working very well. A similar set required the procedure to be repeated at progressively more frequent intervals, til the owner (and tech) got sick of it and declared it dead. Not sure what the situation is in USA but here TV crts are generally not replaced because of the cost, it's usually better to get another TV. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Nov 3 00:50:02 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: <001a01be06f3$39bc1680$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from "Geoff Roberts" at Nov 3, 98 04:58:31 pm Message-ID: <199811030650.WAA18926@saul9.u.washington.edu> Geoff Roberts wrote: > Not sure what the situation is in USA but here TV crts are generally not > replaced because > of the cost, it's usually better to get another TV. It's probably the same here (I don't know, but judging by the recent discussion of repair costs vs. unit prices, that's what I'd guess). Of course, if you're talking about an exotic computer CRT from a long time ago, you may not be able to get another monitor. Actually, you may not be able to get another CRT either... I wonder how practical it is to replace a CRT with certain specifications? Does anyone know? I know phosphor formulas have changed over time, as well as CRT shapes, so if you want that bright new look for your big obsolete workstation screen, or that flickery blue-orange ook for your PDP-12 scope, I have no idea what options you have. And then there's storage-tube CRTs... -- Derek From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Nov 3 02:19:02 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 In-Reply-To: <199811030329.WAA18285@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > Part of it may have been the dippy little keyboard that it had, or the fact > that it only came with 1k or RAM (standard). If it had a larger keyboard, > instead of the tiny plastic membranes, then the idea *MAY* have caught on. A few computers used the idea (of having single keypresses map to an entire BASIC command). My first computer, the Mattel Aquarius, had this feature too, except it was an option, as opposed to default behavior. You'd use the CTL (control) key plus a letter to shortcut whole BASIC keywords, which were printed above the key. > I wonder if ther'd be some way to either put a new keyboard on it (say, > from a laptop), or somehow make it into an expansion unit for something > like a TRS-80, almost like a CoCo cartridge. I've seen at least a couple TS-1000's modified with a "real" keyboard. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From gram at cnct.com Tue Nov 3 03:01:27 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 References: Message-ID: <363EC667.55886F0D@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > A few computers used the idea (of having single keypresses map to an > entire BASIC command). My first computer, the Mattel Aquarius, had this > feature too, except it was an option, as opposed to default behavior. > You'd use the CTL (control) key plus a letter to shortcut whole BASIC > keywords, which were printed above the key. There were several such utilities sold as add-ons for the TRS-80 Mod One that I recall, and at least a couple for the Color Computer. I think there were some as well for the Apples and Commodores, but I didn't pay much attention to those lines. Convenient for non-typists (among whom I still count myself after decades at the keyboard). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From franke at sbs.de Tue Nov 3 05:27:59 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:03 2005 Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd) Message-ID: <199811031008.LAA13280@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Anybody else see this one? I wonder what kind of documentation he has to > "support" that "The current value of an Apple I computer is $40,000+" Is > he referring to the one that was sold for a charity? Trolling only needs phantasy (sometimes). >> This computer is for display purposes only -- not for actual >> use as a computer. Though I used it as a working computer in the >> past, the ravages of time has likely make it inoperative. HarHarHar. > Minimum price for starting the bidding is $25,000.00. The current value > of an Apple I computer is $40,000+. Documentation to support this fact will > be provided upon request. A color photo to interested parties will also be > provided upon request. Just request it - I gess he will pull out some magazines with yellow press stly articles about historic computers. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Nov 3 06:51:33 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT Message-ID: <199811031131.MAA03005@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>At the 80386 introduction, there were >>two firsts -- the Compaq Deskpro 386 and the IBM PS/2 80 (the Compaq was >>first, as I recall). Those machines are borderline collectable, in my >>opinion. > And when you look at the machines churned out by Gateway et al, > the composition of the parts inside the box changes day by day. > How can that be collectible? Maybe not as easy as PETs and Apples, where the inside didn't change a lot, but if you compare them to the cars of the 60s and 70s they have a lot in common - a wide variety of names and companies, but most are just believed to be common crap. And within a blik of an eye they are vanished and become desirable. Also, see the technical aspect, they are so fast changing that it's realy hard to get a full blown configuration of one era. I just have this problem for a PC I configured about two years ago for my younger daughter - a BIOSTAR 8500TVD Board with an K5 PR133. I choose this board since I thought about upgrading it later on with an Pentium 200 (At this time the 200 was some 600 USD). Now, When I wanted to upgrade (she insists in using Win95/8) a P200 isn't available any longer - and even K6 are hard to find not to mention a K5 PR200. So maintinig such Systems will become a problem over the years. And more complicated than any S100 or Apple. BTW: why is an Apple // a classic ? There are still zillions out there. In fact they are less collectible than most PC types in term of rarety. And to come bach for your question: I think this ~10 year thunp rule is just as good as the 20 year rule for most car collectors. A owner of a 1974 VW K70 is considered by some 'real' collectors owning a 1936 Mercedes not a collector, but I would disagree. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From blakeman at creative-net.net Mon Nov 2 05:43:36 1998 From: blakeman at creative-net.net (Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT References: <199811030329.WAA18270@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <363D9AE6.DF5DD191@creative-net.net> The PS/2 line wasn't microchannel until you went into the model 50 and higher numbered models, and all the machines were plug in bus, no cabled busses. The ISA versions had a HDD controller on them but it would auto disable when another stock type controller was plugged into a card slot. We run a 30-286 on the toekn ring network where I work as a disk type workstation that also has an external 5.25" floppy drive and it works great. I'm trying to talk them into swapping it out for a 386 machine though. Jason Willgruber wrote: > The PS/2 Model 30=286 didn't have a cable going to the riser card in it, > nor was it an MCA machine. It was an ISA machine, and The HD plugged into > the motherboard via ribbon cable. I'm not even sure if it was an ESDI > drive. I think it was just an MFM that had everything (including power) on > one cable. > > -Jason > > *********************************************** > * Jason Willgruber * > * (roblwill@usaor.net) * > * * > * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * > * ICQ#-1730318 * > * /0\/0\ * > * > Long Live the 5170! * > * \___/ * > ************************************************ > > ---------- > > From: John Rollins > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Subject: RE: Classic != IBM AT > > Date: Monday, November 02, 1998 8:26 PM > > > > > > Hmm.. Would the 486 system I had a while back count? I forget who made > it, > > model A3000. 486DX/33 AMD CPU and FPU and some other chips were on a > small > > daughterboard that fit into a slot in the front of the computer, which > > interfaced to an MCA slot... Now that's gotta be wierd for anything. > > Closest thing to that I can think of is the hard drives IBM used in some > > PS/2's that interfaced directly to the MCA bus(interface built in to the > > drive's controller board with a cable going to the MCA riser card in the > > Model 30-286 and maybe the 55sx too). That 486 was fun, wish I still had > > it... :-| > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | > > | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | > > | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | > > | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From blakeman at creative-net.net Mon Nov 2 05:48:55 1998 From: blakeman at creative-net.net (Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT References: Message-ID: <363D9C25.B3C1AEA0@creative-net.net> Technically IBM calls their proprietary drives "microchannel drives" and they don't advertise the exact interface type it really uses. The 30-120mb IBM hard drives (other than SCSI) can be swapped between machine models pretty easily, generally without even running the reference/setup disk. They mount differently but have the same interface. I doubt the IBM drives were MFM as the controller auto senses the cyl/hds/etc without a hitch. Wanna buy some PS/2's??? I have a bunch, models 30 (8088) through 95XP (8595 not 9595) John Rollins wrote: > >The PS/2 Model 30=286 didn't have a cable going to the riser card in it, > >nor was it an MCA machine. It was an ISA machine, and The HD plugged into > >the motherboard via ribbon cable. I'm not even sure if it was an ESDI > >drive. I think it was just an MFM that had everything (including power) on > >one cable. > > That's right... My memory is fading! Quick, install some more 256k SIMMs!!! > The 30-286 had an ST-125L. A most interesting drive. The 55sx was the one > I'm thinking of, and I think you can swap them to the 50z, too. In the 50z, > the drive slips in behind the floppy drive(s) and plugs directly into an > MCA card. The drives are ESDI. That was something that really suprised me, > not being able to find a power cable. Drove me NUTS. And it shows. When it > comes to PC's, the PS/2 line has to be my favorite. When I'm not cursing > IBM, that is... > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | > | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | > | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | > | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | > -------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 3 05:50:14 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: About VCF 2.0 and system design Message-ID: <199811031150.AA16791@world.std.com> < it did have the drives mounted vertical. As issued, it had an 81-294 < motherboard, and the 81-478 (U-ROM) EPROM. I believe that it had the < in-built modem and real-time clock as well. The Turbo-ROM was a major < improvement! that number doesnt match the the logic. there is no modem. Cannot tell on the Urom and the turborom replaced it. Yes, with turborom using teac FD55F or 3.5" drives I get 781k per drive. I retained the 360k drive for compatability. Allison From blakeman at creative-net.net Mon Nov 2 05:52:22 1998 From: blakeman at creative-net.net (Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT References: <439012d5.363e8787@aol.com> Message-ID: <363D9CF5.E112ABE5@creative-net.net> How are they MFM if you can pull a 30mb drive and slip in a 120 and it starts without resetting the parameters or even running the setup disk? Now I think the 20mb with the narrower card edge may have been MFM as yo have to tell setup what they type number it is during setup. The wide card edge type are completely drop in an run. There are two type of controllers on the 50's as well, the one for the narrow type and one for the wide type. SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > the drive was indeed mfm. the models 50 and 70 had drives that connected to a > riser card which then went to the planar. there were no cables on the 50 or > 70. > > david > > In a message dated 11/2/98 10:30:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > roblwill@usaor.net writes: > > > The PS/2 Model 30=286 didn't have a cable going to the riser card in it, > > nor was it an MCA machine. It was an ISA machine, and The HD plugged into > > the motherboard via ribbon cable. I'm not even sure if it was an ESDI > > drive. I think it was just an MFM that had everything (including power) on > > one cable. > > > > -Jason From blakeman at creative-net.net Mon Nov 2 05:54:33 1998 From: blakeman at creative-net.net (Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT References: Message-ID: <363D9D78.68E794BC@creative-net.net> An Epson Equity has just as much "classic" qaulity as an IBM S/34 or a PDP....just in a different category is all, and smaller. Everyone gets hung into their own niche and it's easy to see other machines as "junkers"...... Tony Duell wrote: > > > > At 07:04 PM 11/2/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > >Yes, but fortunately the starting date doesn't move forwards as well. In > > >other words, OK, some 386 PCs with custom chips in them are now classics > > >on this list (I have a problem with saying that, BTW...). > > > > I tend to agree with you. Discussion of ten-year-old IBM PC clones > > isn't as interesting. Dare I cause a schism by suggesting that > > I wasn't trying to imply that 10-year-old PC clones shouldn't be > discussed here, only that I have a problem with applying the term > 'classic' to such machines... > > -tony From franke at sbs.de Tue Nov 3 07:33:00 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: CRT decay Message-ID: <199811031212.NAA25543@marina.fth.sbs.de> > < Don't CRT filaments degrade with use? I've seen this on other > < workstation monitors from Sun and HP, typically ones that were used as > It the common characteristic of all valves (tubes) with heated cathodes > that over time emission will decay and gain(brightness) goes away with > it. > < big-ticket item, the local TV repairman had cylindrical devices called > < "boosters" that could be inserted in the circuit between the plug on > < the back of the CRT and the set's CRT socket to extend the life of a > It got back some emission for a while but the overvoltage generally > killed the tube. > < dim picture tube. I don't really know what it did, but I suppose it > < was something like a step-up transformer for the CRT filament voltage. > That was it's exact function. There is also a way of 'reanimate' darkened tubes. Since the most usual cause is a deformation in the emiting layer of the cathode, the idea is to 'rebuild' the emiting layer. This involves over heating with up to double power (Watt). The parameters to be used have to fit the tube. This method is also only real usefull for b&w tubes. Depending on the kind of tube and usage this will lead to some additional 500 to 1500 hours of usage. The process can be repeated, but not infinite. Since there is no new coating made - just a bit mixed up of the existing. The basic why is just that thru normal operation the electron emiting will always be from the same spot(s) and the coating will degenerate over the usage. DISCLAIMER: I am not a master of physics or chemistry nor do I know the exact english terms - I just using the process. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From blakeman at creative-net.net Mon Nov 2 06:27:16 1998 From: blakeman at creative-net.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Xpost: person wants CoCo schematics Message-ID: <363DA523.8BFC0E2@creative-net.net> This person left this message on the Obsolete Computer Helpline. If anyone can help, please write him directly at his email address in Brazil, not to me. ---------------------------- Danilo R. Costa Rio de Janeiro, RJ Brazil - Sunday, November 01, 1998 at 19:27:22 I'sorry but I dont speak English. I need a schematic diagram of the TRS Color Computer ( Coco 1 or 2). You can help me? Thanks From jruschme at exit109.com Tue Nov 3 06:25:34 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: About VCF 2.0 and system design In-Reply-To: from Don Maslin at "Nov 2, 98 09:01:45 pm" Message-ID: <199811031225.HAA13756@crobin.home.org> > On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > What blows that all to dust is a machine like mine. The box is > > kaypro-1 (81-021) written all over the outside but, the board is > > apparently 4-84 and it's equipped with handyman, Advent turbo rom > > and a 2mb Ramdisk. I tell people it says kaypro-1 (number 1!) and > > they say two full height drives with slots horizontal but, mine has > > two half height two sided drives mounted vertical. Apparently it > > was a 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 Fochevromercysler! > > The Kaypro 1 was about the last 8-bit machine that they built, Allison. > I am a bit fuzzy on it - haven't seen that many - but it seems to me that > it did have the drives mounted vertical. As issued, it had an 81-294 > motherboard, and the 81-478 (U-ROM) EPROM. I believe that it had the > in-built modem and real-time clock as well. The Turbo-ROM was a major > improvement! Nope, it doesn't have the clock or the modem (though the RJ-11 for the modem is there). The board is laid out for them, it's just that all the holes are still plated through. <<>> From franke at sbs.de Tue Nov 3 09:24:41 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 Message-ID: <199811031404.PAA24303@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> Guess what? You don't. The Sinclairs *only* accepted keywords with the >> key combinations! The appropriate keywords should be printed on the >> keyboard. Not until the Spectrum +3 were you finally able to enter >> keywords in longhand. I found this a pretty good way to help beginners in programming - also it was _very_ fast - In fact I programmed an 'editor' Apple II wich used exactly the same way than on the ZX. > O.K. How do I enter programs, then, such as > 10 CLS > 20 PRINT "HELLO"; > 30 GOTO 20 > if I can't enter things such as the "hello"? After entering a keyword that takes parameters, like Print or Go To the Keyword Cursor [K] changes for the Character Cursor [C] and you just enter what ever you want. It will stay this until New Line is pressed. And with some trick you could even use keywords within printed strings so save RAM "LET HERCULES GO TO HELL" is just a 14 Byte string instead of 22 (Send GATES instead of HERCULES will save another 3 Bytes). Just try the folowing program: 10 for i = 1 to 255 20 print chr$(i); 30 next i This worked only because the CPU was interpreting (!) the 'video' memory and took the representation of a byte from the character 'generator' for toggeling the brightnes. If encountering a Basic Token inside the screen buffer the keyword was generated. The Video buffer itself was kind of trickey, since it is only a dynamic buffer - a strem to be interpreted for display - for every line only as much chars as needed where stored with an newline as termination, directly followed by the next line - so an empty screen just consits of 16 newlines. AFAIR Basic Memory was growing from the bottom and screen memory from the top, with variable storage inbetween. this could lees so an out of memory abortion if to much was printed onscreen. The CPU based video display is also the reason for the SLOW and FAST modi - in FAST the CPU uses all HighRes graphics are also possible via assembler subroutiens - just stop the ROM routine and generate your own signal - up to 300x578 interlaced could be possible - just without a structured display memory (witch needs an expansion) the generatable resolution will be more like 200x578. >> 1K computer, video entirely via TTL logic, Z80A at 3.5MHz. RAM expansion >> available; 80x50 (I think) character graphics in B&W. Identical to the >> British Sinclair ZX80 and ZX81, and scads of info are there for the >> taking on the Web. Possible to have 2K (just unsolder the 2114s and put in a 6116), Standard RAM expansion of 16K, but third party modules of 64 and more K, Additional I/O modules, even floppies have been made. The ZX80 is not 100% compatible. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Marty at itgonline.com Tue Nov 3 08:20:12 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: CRT decay Message-ID: <1998Nov03.091756.1767.155620@smtp.itgonline.com> ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: CRT decay Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 11/3/98 7:18 AM > < Don't CRT filaments degrade with use? I've seen this on other > < workstation monitors from Sun and HP, typically ones that were used as > It the common characteristic of all valves (tubes) with heated cathodes > that over time emission will decay and gain(brightness) goes away with > it. > < big-ticket item, the local TV repairman had cylindrical devices called > < "boosters" that could be inserted in the circuit between the plug on > < the back of the CRT and the set's CRT socket to extend the life of a > It got back some emission for a while but the overvoltage generally > killed the tube. > < dim picture tube. I don't really know what it did, but I suppose it > < was something like a step-up transformer for the CRT filament voltage. > That was it's exact function. >>There is also a way of 'reanimate' darkened tubes. Since >>the most usual cause is a deformation in the emiting layer >>of >>the cathode, the idea is to 'rebuild' the emiting layer. >>This involves over heating with up to double power (Watt). >>The parameters to be used have to fit the tube. This method >>is also only real usefull for b&w tubes. Depending on the >>kind of tube and usage this will lead to some additional >>500 to 1500 hours of usage. The process can be repeated, >>but not infinite. Since there is no new coating made - just >>a bit mixed up of the existing. The basic why is just that >>thru normal operation the electron emiting will always be >>from >>the same spot(s) and the coating will degenerate over the >>usage. This very same process goes back to the 1920's when thoriated cathodes were 'rejuvenated' by heating the cathode above its normal operating voltage for several minutes to boil up the thorium mixture of the cathode. This wasn't always successful but I have several friends who can attest to getting better performance from old UX-99 triodes of the early 1920's by this process. Marty DISCLAIMER: I am not a master of physics or chemistry nor do I know the exact english terms - I just using the process. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists5.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Nov03.071846.1767.74913; Tue, 03 Nov 1998 07:18:47 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id EAA25921; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 04:15:52 -0800 Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id EAA24852 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 04:15:49 -0800 Received: from ns.sbs.de (ns.sbs.de [194.112.84.17]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id EAA02 725 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 04:15:45 -0800 Received: from mail.fth.sbs.de (mail.fth.sbs.de [192.129.41.35]) by ns.sbs.de (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA17692 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:20:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from marina.fth.sbs.de (marina.fth.sbs.de [192.129.41.2]) by mail.fth.sbs.de (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA00721 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:05:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from M23769PP (m23769pp.mch.sbs.de [139.25.241.35]) by marina.fth.sbs.de (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA25543 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:12:47 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199811031212.NAA25543@marina.fth.sbs.de> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:34:00 +1 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: "Hans Franke" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: CRT decay X-Envelope-Sender-Is: franke@sbs.de (at relayer mail.fth.sbs.de) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Tue Nov 3 08:58:36 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: PDP11 training troubleshooting Message-ID: <199811031458.JAA08224@shell.monmouth.com> re: PDP11 troubleshooting class (AKA PDP11 Systems new hire) > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Subject: Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt > > [Sticking tape on an edge connector to introduce a fault] > > > It wasn't a repair procedure... it was a call it broken and try to > > find/fix it class exercise. Sometimes when a bad board was a available > > they would be used. > > Hmmm.. This actually wouldn't have worked for me, if I'd been allowed to > do what I liked to the machine. Well, the class wasn't 8-(... You worked with scope, diags, front panel lights and were not allowed to pull the boards to look at the fingers. A couple of instructors began to request real bad boards from the in-house maintenance techs who maintained the machines at Crosby Drive. (I wonder if Jack Whitford at DEC's reading this one now. Thanks for the PDP11 new hire course Jack -- it got me to where I am now...) The Vax course wasn't even this good. The 8600 was too fast and to scope. The 11/780 too large. Those were microdiag courses... Run the micro's and let 'em call out the errors. Not too useful when the A B C cables to the Unibus are swapped by a bad installer or if AC/LO and DC/LO from the BA11 cause micros to fail. I remember seeing folks choke on that stuff in the field. You would scope out problems with the 465 scope, get diagnostic errors, figure which signal line was wrong and recommend which board needed swapping. The instructor would say yes or now to the board. Sometimes you got it... some times the signal was floating due to other causes -- even when he pulled the tape. These were the worst maintained most beaten to death 11's at DEC. They were machines left over from in-house duties elsewhere and often they were old prototypes. 11/40's with the old power distribution and such. Machines that would delight in driving a student nuts. You see, the tape often would rub off a board during class and stick into the backplane connectors at random locations. Often the machines would develop intermittants due to massive amounts of board pulls and reseats. >> >> You see, one thing that's always taught in books of fault-finding is to >> use a logical approach, make tests, etc. And yes that's an _extremely_ >> valuable skill to learn. Yup. >> >> However, in the real world I'm more likely to start with a 'lucky dip'. >> Unplug all connectors/boards, clean contacts, look for bent pins. Check >> all fuses. Power up and check the power rails with a voltmeter. > True... if you know someone's been playing inside. But in Field Service with machines under maintenance most folks keep their hands out of them. (except for printers and terminals) This means something broke. Check power and work from there. >> >> By doing that I've probably found 75% of common faults (bent pins on >> those 0.1" header plugs like you find on 3.5" floppy drives, IDE drives, >> SCSI drives, etc) are very common). > I've never seen an IDE drive or SCSI drive with bent pins where no one ever played with the cable. >> Then, if there's still a fault I use the logical approach. Get out the >> 'scope and analyser, sit down with the printset, and start tracing the fault. >> >> So, of course I'd have spotted a taped over pin very early on. Not if you couldn't remove the boards from the backplane. >> >> Allison >> >> > >-tony Bill Proud survivor of the company formerly known as Digital ex-DEC Field Service 1981-86 Somerset, NJ, Piscataway, NJ, Princeton, NJ DEC Branch 79J Former District Installation Team 1981-82 DEC Branch 7HT +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From franke at sbs.de Tue Nov 3 10:24:51 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 Message-ID: <199811031504.QAA22655@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Solid? Translucent? Seems to me from >> the few Timex models I've seen in action, the video is not so hot. Can be >> tempermental depending what TV it is hooked to. Bad sync (not rock >> stable), noisy and rather unsharp. Cheap design and manufacture all >> around. At least it translated to a cheap price. >> > Well, there's a gray background, with black lettering. The bar(s) are > solid black, and are about 2" wide, and scroll from the top to the bottom. > It does this on every TV I connect it to. The Background should be white - I guess you just have to change brightness and the Bar will also change translucent - almost invisible. The bar is common to all ZX81 and Timex and an is artefact of the generation routine. Maybe the output voltage of the video circuit don't reach a sufficient height. As far as I remember there is an adjustable resistor for that, so you don't have to change all TV sets. >> Bingo. Save your own programs or use commercial ones. There are a few >> programs of the "home accounting" ilk released by Timex Sinclair as >> cassettes. > Hmm.. Cheap design shows through here, too. There's not even a connector to > hook up the "motor remote" on the cassette. You have to turn it on and off > yourself (or have a VSR tape deck). All in all, even though bigger, the > CoCo is about 2k times better (bigger IS better...). Hey, what you want - the ZX81 was just 300 Mark at introduction ! Every other computer just trippled this price (or 10 times, like an Apple //e). And speaking of the Apple: no motor control ! And for the keyboard: there have been plenty of kits, and it should be possible just to assemble some switches as a keyboard. Try a web search. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk Tue Nov 3 10:11:34 1998 From: kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk (KNIGHT G.A) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Amiga drawbacks (was Ancient machines turning on) Message-ID: UKers should check out the 50th issue of PC Pro. It has a feature on old computers. I had a quick look and saw mentions of the Osbourne 1 and some other systems. Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > The apps I have for both MS-DOS and the Amiga tend to be fairly robust and >less crash prone than for systems that have memory protection, I suppose >becuase with memory protection it's easier to write sloppy code that won't >bring down the system [2] so not as much effort is taken in writing solid >code. There is an application currently in development for the "Classic Amiga" line at the moment that promises to bring memory protection to the OS. This is quite an amazing feat when you consider that it is a 3rd party addon and has been thought impossible for years. I just hope it is included in AmigaOS 3.5. John Foust muttered: >I think this is crucial for those who wish to understand why the Amiga >didn't live forever: although it was 32-bit, its architecture had a deep >reliance on wide-open shared memory, preventing it from reaching the >next level of robust behavior. Tricks like "Enforcer" certainly helped >developers write safer code once the 68020 came along, but it was too >little, too late. Indeed. Particularly the lack of Unified Memory Access, restricting the user to a maximum of 2Mb Chip RAM (although UAE somehow allows up to 8Mb chip RAM). It can be improved on by adding a graphics card which will take the strain of the display off the custom chips. Once you begin to add PPC processors the task switching between the two processors, 68k and PPC really begins to reduce performance. D. Peschel spoke unto the masses: >I knew there was a reliance on shared memory, but I didn't know it was that >deep. Are you talking just about the custom hardware? (When the Amiga was >new, Amiga clearly had to work its butt off it get the chips to perform so >well -- making them squeeze through an MMU while doing DMA was obviously not >practical. Do you know if they even had plans to add memory management?) The original Amiga Corp considered using MMU but ( I think RJ Mical stated in an interview) that it would have made multitasking in his words, "a lot hairier." It would have slowed down the Amiga considerably when it was first released. With current technology it is possible to use the MMU to implement third party VMM, as well as Kickstart mappers. Some games and applications also use it. Quake being one of the most notable. >I'm tempted to say that after its initial success, Amiga rested on its lau- >rels and didn't try to improve the hardware for a long time (and they only >sort-of tried to improve the software). I don't know if it's *true*, but >it's *tempting*. Then they got around to the AGA graphics hardware which >is much better, except they were never able to catch all the bugs! Commodore rested on its laurels and the management made some classic mistakes. Cancelling AAA and when it was almost finished and releasing the A4000 being noteable (the A3200 were much better and included DSP as standard). The AGA chipset still ran at 7.14MHz like its predecessors. >Now they want to combine the old architecture with fancy new CPU's and hope- >fully memory management -- good luck but it sounds like a lot of work. >Do you know if they're trying for software compatibility? The latest release of AmigaOS, version 3.5 is due to ship early 1998 and has over twenty developers working on it. This should make a lot of the third party addons standard as part of the OS. Most Amigas nowadays are expanded so much that much of the design is unused. Even on my relatively underpowered A1200, the 68020 is ignored in favour of the 68040 that is present on my accelerator card. The OS upgrade is also going to be quite revolutionary by Amiga standards, requiring a minimum of a 020 processor with 4Mb. Considering that AmigaOS 3.1 could be run on an A500 this is quite a development. Amiga Inc claim that the OS upgrade will be 100% compatible with AmigaOS 3.1 although I have my doubts. They have also stated that AmigaOS 5 that will be released at the end of 1999 will be compatible with AmigaOS 3.5. Whether this actually comes to pass is another matter. >There is another lesson here, I think. It's one reason why adaptation has >been or will be so hard -- ANY decision you make about a system, good or bad, >especially bad, will affect the system for longer than you think. Only recently has Apple finally rid themselves of most of the 68k code in their OS. Until MacOS 8 much of the OS was run under emulation. Regards, Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://welcome.to/aig From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Nov 3 10:51:11 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Nov 3, 98 00:19:02 am Message-ID: <199811031651.IAA13560@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1327 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981103/77f9f105/attachment.ksh From Anthony.Dellett at Staples.com Mon Nov 2 20:24:10 1998 From: Anthony.Dellett at Staples.com (Dellett, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Spring Cleaning Message-ID: <199811031720.MAA03191@charity.harvard.net> I know it's not spring but it is time for me to thin out my collection. I'm offering these for sale here first before sending them off to ebay. Email me with offers to anthony.dellett@staples.com. I dont get time to check the list much so posing a reply there will get you nowhere. Atari 800 (not working, parts?) Atari 1050 Disk Drive (two of them) Commodore 64 (complete in box, I have two like this) Commodore 1541 Disk Drive (2 in box, one works, one doesn't) Commodore 1541 II Disk Drive (complete in box) Commodore 128 (complete in box) Commodore 1571 Disk Drive (complete in box) Compupro S-100 Enclosure (motherboard and PS only, no cards) IMSAI 8080 W/8080 Processor Card, SIO4 (Godbout w/docs), RAM64 (Godbout w/docs), PIO8 (IMSAI) Kaypro I (incl. boot disk) Kaypro II (incl. boot disk) Kaypro IV (incl. boot disk) NorthStar Horizon (not working) NorthStar Advantage (works completely, with boot disk) Osborne I (not working) Osborne Executive (incl. boot disk) Processor Technology SOL w/SOLOS personality module Sanyo CP/M System (with software) TI-99/4A Computer (beige model, in box) TRS-80 Model III (with some software) 8" DS/DD Floppy Drive (in wooden enclosure) and Controller (Godbout w/docs) 8" SS/SD Floppy Drive (no enclosure) 8" SS/SD Dual Drive Subsystem (ICOM) 8" Hard Disk Drive in enclosure w/controller (Fujitsu Hard Drive, Godbout Controller w/docs) I also have some random Commodore stuff that I cant remember (modem, paddles, trackball, etc...) I can take a closer look if anyone is interested. A word of warning... I'd like to sell these things to someone on the list but I'll only accept "reasonable" offers. Tony From marvin at rain.org Tue Nov 3 11:28:21 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: ebay offerings to listmembers References: <199811031720.MAA03191@charity.harvard.net> Message-ID: <363F3D35.F1208FE2@rain.org> One of the really nice things about ebay is the bidding system where the auction is handled automatically and each bidder knows immeadiately what the current bid is. As such, one suggestion to people wanting to offer stuff to listmembers first might be to put in on ebay as a private auction with a reserve price high enough to protect the seller. I personally have not used or participated in private auctions, but the idea seems sound. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 3 11:32:50 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: OT: Books for "Idiots" (Was: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <199811022257.PAA28398@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Jim Strickland wrote: > The best guide to troubleshooting in general (it's actually written for > air cooled VWs, but it gives you the right philosophy) is John Muir's > "How to Keep your Volkswagon Alive, a manual of step by step instructions for > the compleat idiot" [more than 10 years old] John Muir's Volkswagen "idiot" book sold over 1.5 million copies, and launched a trend of marketing books by insulting the reader in the title. It was a great book. But then the publisher decided to make an entire series out of it. John Muir promptly died of a brain tumor. (Some people will do ANYTHING to get out of participation in a badly conceived project.) Soon there was a VW Rabbit book, and a Honda book. [If you check out the Honda book, you'll see that I know what I'm talking about on it.] The subsequent books still had the fantastic illustrating talent of Peter Aschwanden, but just were NOT on a par with the original book. The final straw was when the editor of the Honda book REFUSED to include a flow chart that the authors had developed on the grounds that "normal people don't understand flowcharts". Now there are dozens of publishers of books for "idiots", "dummies", "morons", and "obnoxious ignorant neo-Luddite jerks". Some of them are actually pretty good, IN SPITE OF their titles, but none are on a par with John Muir's original VW book. Particularly that HONDA book! (where at least ONE of the authors was smart enough to switch to a pseudonym!) -- Fred Cisin (not a pseudonym) cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 3 11:49:32 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: POST Cards (Was: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > [POST cards] > . . . > I don't find it that useful, actually. I have used it on this PC when I > had a little processor problem, but for most faults a logic probe is a > lot more use. Another use, for those who indulge in programming: When you want to know what's going on, or just want confirmation that the program reached a certain milestone, what could be simpler than OUTing AL to a port? Small enough so as not to push very many short jumps out of range, and if you don't bother to remove THAT debugging code before shipping, nobody complains. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Nov 3 11:55:13 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd) Message-ID: Is this the guy I bought the SWTPC 6800 from at the VCF? He said he had an Apple I he was going to auction, and he was talking prices like this. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Bjorn T. Eng [mailto:bjorn@ktb.net] Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 4:28 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd) Hi! Anybody else see this one? I wonder what kind of documentation he has to "support" that "The current value of an Apple I computer is $40,000+" Is he referring to the one that was sold for a charity? Bjorn Eng ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 2 Nov 1998 14:05:39 GMT From: David Selinger Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale Keywords: Apple 1 Apple I Wozniak Steve Jobs Computer Subject: Apple 1 Computer For Sale - Historic Rare Museum Piece Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Organization: CTS Network Services (CTSNET), San Diego, CA Summary: For Sale (FS) RARE Apple I (Apple 1) 1976 Computer System Keywords: Apple I Apple 1 For Sale Antique Computer vintage computer Wozniak Steve Jobs I am offering for sale to the highest bidder an original 1976 Apple I (Apple 1) Computer System - museum quality (one is in the Smithsonian in Washington, D.C. - see their web page.) It includes: Main processor board with original chips. User Operations manual with schematic BASIC programming User's manual which came with Apple I Tape interface daughter board BASIC cassette tape Original one-sheet advertisement What it doesn't include (because Apple Computer Co. did not sell this equipment with the computer -- the user supplied it himself): keyboard, and TV. This computer is for display purposes only -- not for actual use as a computer. Though I used it as a working computer in the past, the ravages of time has likely make it inoperative. Important Additional Information: Only 200 were ever made (Steve Wozniak interview, Byte Magazine, December 1984, page A69). Of those 200, many have likely been lost or destroyed, thereby making the surviving computers worth much more because of their increased scarcity. Minimum price for starting the bidding is $25,000.00. The current value of an Apple I computer is $40,000+. Documentation to support this fact will be provided upon request. A color photo to interested parties will also be provided upon request. I am also offering a 10% finder's fee to any person who finds a legitimate buyer with whom I actually consumate the sale. For example, finding a buyer who agrees to buy the computer for $40,000.00 will mean a $4,000.00 finders fee to the person who finds the buyer. This offer of a finder's fee however is valid for only two (2) months and expires on midnight Dec. 31, 1998. Send email bids, or referrals to potential buyers to this email address: dave314x@cts.com I reserve the right to reject or accept any and all bids. Dave. From yowza at yowza.com Tue Nov 3 12:27:43 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Different guy. This one's in San Diego. Mr SWTPC is in Santa Cruz. You know what I find very weird? The number of Apple 1's that appear to be out there. I've heard of or seen at least 10 of them, which is a much higher percentage than any other machine made. If only 200 machines were really made, somebody should be able to track down most of the original owners with a little detective work, and trace the sales of the machines with a little more work. If I were an Apple 1 owner, I know I'd want a pedigree. Who knows, you might even be able to buy a few of them for next to nothing while doing your research. Anybody know the original distribution? 50 to the Byte Shop in Palo Alto, a bunch to Computer Mart in NY, did Apple sell direct? -- Doug On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Is this the guy I bought the SWTPC 6800 from at the VCF? He said he had an > Apple I he was going to auction, and he was talking prices like this. > > Kai > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bjorn T. Eng [mailto:bjorn@ktb.net] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 4:28 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd) > > > > Hi! > > Anybody else see this one? I wonder what kind of documentation he has to > "support" that "The current value of an Apple I computer is $40,000+" Is > he referring to the one that was sold for a charity? > > Bjorn Eng > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: 2 Nov 1998 14:05:39 GMT > From: David Selinger > Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers > Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale > > Keywords: Apple 1 Apple I Wozniak Steve Jobs Computer > > Subject: Apple 1 Computer For Sale - Historic Rare Museum Piece > Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers > Organization: CTS Network Services (CTSNET), San Diego, CA > Summary: For Sale (FS) RARE Apple I (Apple 1) 1976 Computer System > Keywords: Apple I Apple 1 For Sale Antique Computer vintage computer > Wozniak Steve Jobs > > I am offering for sale to the highest bidder an original 1976 > Apple I (Apple 1) Computer System - museum quality (one is in the > Smithsonian in Washington, D.C. - see their web page.) > > It includes: > > Main processor board with original chips. > User Operations manual with schematic > BASIC programming User's manual which came with Apple I > Tape interface daughter board > BASIC cassette tape > Original one-sheet advertisement > > What it doesn't include (because Apple Computer Co. did not > sell this equipment with the computer -- the user supplied it > himself): keyboard, and TV. > > This computer is for display purposes only -- not for actual > use as a computer. Though I used it as a working computer in the > past, the ravages of time has likely make it inoperative. > > Important Additional Information: > > Only 200 were ever made (Steve Wozniak interview, Byte Magazine, December > 1984, page A69). > > Of those 200, many have likely been lost or destroyed, thereby > making the surviving computers worth much more because of their > increased scarcity. > > Minimum price for starting the bidding is $25,000.00. The current value > of an Apple I computer is $40,000+. Documentation to support this fact > will > be provided upon request. A color photo to interested parties will also be > provided upon request. > > I am also offering a 10% finder's fee to any person who finds a legitimate > buyer with whom I actually consumate the sale. For example, finding a > buyer who agrees to buy the computer for $40,000.00 will mean a $4,000.00 > finders fee to the person who finds the buyer. This offer of a finder's > fee however is valid for only two (2) months and expires on midnight Dec. > 31, 1998. > > Send email bids, or referrals to potential buyers to this > email address: dave314x@cts.com > > I reserve the right to reject or accept any and all bids. > > Dave. > > > > From bill at chipware.com Tue Nov 3 12:31:03 1998 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: IMSAI value Message-ID: <000001be0758$1cb60540$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Well, I would like to get an IMSAI and I'm thinking about making a bid on Tony's. Problem: What is a reasonable offer on an IMSAI, collector to collector? If we're talking ebay values, forget it. There will also be the additional expense of shipping from Mass. to Maryland. Any opinions welcome. Bill Sudbrink From ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu Tue Nov 3 12:36:10 1998 From: ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 In-Reply-To: <199811030329.WAA18285@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > Part of it may have been the dippy little keyboard that it had, or the > fact that it only came with 1k or RAM (standard). If it had a larger > keyboard, instead of the tiny plastic membranes, then the idea *MAY* > have caught on. I wouldn't consider the ZX81/TS1000 machines failures (although I'm sure that there are some former Timex managers who would strongly disagree). In 1981, the $149 ZX81 was several times less expensive than anything else on the market. At the time, I couldn't afford an Apple II or a TRS-80, but I could afford a ZX81. The ZX81/TS1000 gave hundreds of thousands of people the chance to own their own computer. By 1983-84, the street price of the T/S 1000 (which came standard with 2K of RAM) had dropped from $99 down to $19. At $19, the T/S 1000 was cheap enough for hardware hacking and embedding in all sorts of (noncritical) things. In retrospect, finding ways around the ZX81's faults was a lot of the fun. I ripped the ZX81 out of its case, connected a surplus keyboard, replaced the abysmal RF modulator, added heat sinks to the ULA and 7805, and piggybacked RAM chips, resulting a very usable computer that didn't bear much physical resemblance to the original. Of course, for every happy ZX81 owner, there were probably a dozen who found the computer most useful in its handy "doorstop mode". Turning potential computer users off by its awkwardness was probably the ZX81's biggest failure. -- Scott Ware ware@xtal.pharm.nwu.edu From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Nov 3 12:43:29 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: IMSAI value Message-ID: Good condition, with the IMSAI 8080 CPU card, $500. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink [mailto:bill@chipware.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 10:31 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: IMSAI value Well, I would like to get an IMSAI and I'm thinking about making a bid on Tony's. Problem: What is a reasonable offer on an IMSAI, collector to collector? If we're talking ebay values, forget it. There will also be the additional expense of shipping from Mass. to Maryland. Any opinions welcome. Bill Sudbrink From yowza at yowza.com Tue Nov 3 12:54:03 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: IMSAI value In-Reply-To: <000001be0758$1cb60540$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: $200-$300 depending on condition and what's included. The docs alone might bring up to a $50 premium. Of course, price is normally a market driven thing, and you happen to be in the second hottest market in the world by being on this list. A list-driven bidding war once drove the price up to $1000 of a *very* complete IMSAI with a bunch of spare cards and docs. -- Doug On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Well, I would like to get an IMSAI and I'm > thinking about making a bid on Tony's. > > Problem: > > What is a reasonable offer on an IMSAI, collector > to collector? If we're talking ebay values, > forget it. There will also be the additional > expense of shipping from Mass. to Maryland. Any > opinions welcome. > > Bill Sudbrink > From Marty at itgonline.com Tue Nov 3 13:10:00 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd) Message-ID: <1998Nov03.140835.1767.155763@smtp.itgonline.com> _____________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: RE: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd) Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 11/3/98 1:31 PM Different guy. This one's in San Diego. Mr SWTPC is in Santa Cruz. You know what I find very weird? The number of Apple 1's that appear to be out there. I've heard of or seen at least 10 of them, which is a much higher percentage than any other machine made. >>If only 200 machines were really made, somebody should be able to track >>down most of the original owners with a little detective work, and trace the sales of the machines with a little more work. If I were an >>Apple 1 owner, I know I'd want a pedigree. Who knows, you might even >>be able to buy a few of them for next to nothing while doing your >>research. I don't know if this is actually true but I seem to recall reading somewhere that Apple gave free Apple II's to those Apple I purchaser's that sent in their original Apple I. Does anyone know if there is any truth to that? Marty Anybody know the original distribution? 50 to the Byte Shop in Palo Alto, a bunch to Computer Mart in NY, did Apple sell direct? -- Doug On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Is this the guy I bought the SWTPC 6800 from at the VCF? He said he had an > Apple I he was going to auction, and he was talking prices like this. > > Kai > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bjorn T. Eng [mailto:bjorn@ktb.net] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 4:28 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd) > > > > Hi! > > Anybody else see this one? I wonder what kind of documentation he has to > "support" that "The current value of an Apple I computer is $40,000+" Is > he referring to the one that was sold for a charity? > > Bjorn Eng > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: 2 Nov 1998 14:05:39 GMT > From: David Selinger > Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers > Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale > > Keywords: Apple 1 Apple I Wozniak Steve Jobs Computer > > Subject: Apple 1 Computer For Sale - Historic Rare Museum Piece > Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers > Organization: CTS Network Services (CTSNET), San Diego, CA > Summary: For Sale (FS) RARE Apple I (Apple 1) 1976 Computer System > Keywords: Apple I Apple 1 For Sale Antique Computer vintage computer > Wozniak Steve Jobs > > I am offering for sale to the highest bidder an original 1976 > Apple I (Apple 1) Computer System - museum quality (one is in the > Smithsonian in Washington, D.C. - see their web page.) > > It includes: > > Main processor board with original chips. > User Operations manual with schematic > BASIC programming User's manual which came with Apple I > Tape interface daughter board > BASIC cassette tape > Original one-sheet advertisement > > What it doesn't include (because Apple Computer Co. did not > sell this equipment with the computer -- the user supplied it > himself): keyboard, and TV. > > This computer is for display purposes only -- not for actual > use as a computer. Though I used it as a working computer in the > past, the ravages of time has likely make it inoperative. > > Important Additional Information: > > Only 200 were ever made (Steve Wozniak interview, Byte Magazine, December > 1984, page A69). > > Of those 200, many have likely been lost or destroyed, thereby > making the surviving computers worth much more because of their > increased scarcity. > > Minimum price for starting the bidding is $25,000.00. The current value > of an Apple I computer is $40,000+. Documentation to support this fact > will > be provided upon request. A color photo to interested parties will also be > provided upon request. > > I am also offering a 10% finder's fee to any person who finds a legitimate > buyer with whom I actually consumate the sale. For example, finding a > buyer who agrees to buy the computer for $40,000.00 will mean a $4,000.00 > finders fee to the person who finds the buyer. This offer of a finder's > fee however is valid for only two (2) months and expires on midnight Dec. > 31, 1998. > > Send email bids, or referrals to potential buyers to this > email address: dave314x@cts.com > > I reserve the right to reject or accept any and all bids. > > Dave. > > > > ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Nov03.133154.1767.75020; Tue, 03 Nov 1998 13:31:55 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id KAA16768; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:29:25 -0800 Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id KAA38346 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:28:11 -0800 Received: from behemoth.host4u.net (behemoth.host4u.net [209.150.128.29]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id KAA09 432 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:28:09 -0800 Received: from localhost (yowza@localhost) by behemoth.host4u.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA27761 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:27:55 -0600 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:27:43 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Doug Yowza To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: RE: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers X-Sender: yowza@behemoth.host4u.net X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From yowza at yowza.com Tue Nov 3 13:23:12 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd) In-Reply-To: <1998Nov03.140835.1767.155763@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Marty wrote: > I don't know if this is actually true but I seem to recall reading > somewhere that Apple gave free Apple II's to those Apple I purchaser's > that sent in their original Apple I. Does anyone know if there is any > truth to that? I've never heard that. Sure you're not thinking of the Lisa 1 -> Lisa 2 upgrade program? BTW, Marty, how can I help you upgrade to a mail reader with a built-in quoting mechanism? Are you using an old version of some brain-dead Microsoft product? -- Doug From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Nov 2 13:35:48 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: DOS browser Message-ID: <363E0992.D05CC079@bigfoot.com> Take a look at this on C/Net http://cnet.com/Resources/Topdownloads/PC/Result/Download/0,162,57820,00.html If it runs good on an XT, imagine what it's like on a 286! From paulk at microsoft.com Tue Nov 3 13:57:45 1998 From: paulk at microsoft.com (Paul Kearns) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Apple I clone (was Re: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd)) Message-ID: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B5090A26ED@RED-MSG-45> The Apple 1 discussion reminds me of some (evil) thougts I had a while back. What do the people on this list think of building an Apple I as a "homebrew" project? Without much work, I was able to dig up a schematic and boot rom listing for an A1, and the parts are all (mostly) readily available. I know it wouldn't be a real Apple 1, and it wouldn't be worth $40,000 8-). But it'd be interesting, to me anyway, to live though hand-building a working computer from just a bundle of wires, as well as having a "manly" computer -- none of this sissy disk drive stuff. If nothing else, it seems like good soldering practice! If the purpose is education rather than collector's value, have I still sold my soul to the devil? What if I then tell people I have "an Apple 1 (-ish) computer", thereby letting me brag about building it myself, if not the actual authenticity? Thanks for any comments! Paul Kearns paulk@microsoft.com From yowza at yowza.com Tue Nov 3 14:12:14 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Apple I clone (was Re: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd)) In-Reply-To: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B5090A26ED@RED-MSG-45> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Paul Kearns wrote: > The Apple 1 discussion reminds me of some (evil) thougts I had a while back. > What do the people on this list think of building an Apple I as a "homebrew" > project? Without much work, I was able to dig up a schematic and boot rom > listing for an A1, and the parts are all (mostly) readily available. That's not evil. Evil would be contracting with a Taiwanese manufacturer to build a few 100 very authentic looking clones, and selling a few of them a year to replace your wage! -- Doug From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 3 14:24:36 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Apple I clone (was Re: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd)) In-Reply-To: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B5090A26ED@RED-MSG-45> (message from Paul Kearns on Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:57:45 -0800) References: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B5090A26ED@RED-MSG-45> Message-ID: <19981103202436.31199.qmail@brouhaha.com> Paul Kearns wrote: > Without much work, I was able to dig up a schematic and boot rom > listing for an A1, If it's the listing I've seen on the web, there are problems with the OCR. Probably not insurmountable, though. > and the parts are all (mostly) readily available. Good luck finding the MOS shift register memory. From jon at techniche.com Tue Nov 3 14:46:12 1998 From: jon at techniche.com (Jon Healey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: A record? Message-ID: <199811032046.PAA24863@chmls05.mediaone.net> Well I certainly can't compete with 75 tons, but I picked up an old Tandem system that consisted of two EXT 25 Cabinets (each approx 4'w x 5'h x 3'd weight unknown, but probably about 1000 pounds each). It also had a Kennedy 9300 tape drive in a similarly sized cabinet and 2 8 bay disk drive cabinets (not quite as big but just as heavy). My plan was to put them in my Cellar. However the only access was a narrow wooden stairway. The solution? Rip through the cement floor of my attached garage removing a store room wall that was in the way and then dig a ramp into the floor that drops 4 feet to the cellar floor level. Finally have the cement experts come in and cut 4 foot doorway in my 10" think foundation wall and then have the whole lot re-cemented and the doorway framed up. I didn't actually lift any of the items, they are all on rollers. So I guess I cheated. This doesn't count the new electrical wiring and building a raised floor. Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- >Oh, come now... B^} The king of gear moving is (and probably will remain >for some time) Paul Pierce (keeper of the mainframe collection). > >Estimated to be around 75 TONS in overall weight (as noted in a Wall Street >Journal (!) article on Friday), Paul has moved the entire collection at >least three times that I can think of, before it arrived in its current >(permanent) home. > >Some might want to have a look at the WSJ article. It also features quotes >from a number of names that most will be familiar with. Its (the article) >easy enough to find... it begins on the front page! > >-jim > >--- > >At 10:19 AM 11/1/98 +0000, Pete wrote: >> >>On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: >> >>> I thought I did well moving a Vax 8530/6310 cluster, complete with >>> 2 HSC50's, TA78/TU78 and about 15 RA8x and some RA7x drives from >>> a warehouse to my parents house, then getting it up a narrow gap into a >>> vacant granny flat. Over gravel. >>> But we did have a forklift load it on the vehicle for us. >>> >>> I think the PDP effort beats that one. >>> >> >>What about my uVAX II? I collected it from the 2nd floor (3rd floor in >>US terms I think), 2 of us carried 2 RA81s and the 19" rack unit down a >>steep, narrow, winding staircase and the out through the owner's garden >>before loading it all into a medium six UK hatchback (Vauxhall Cavalier). >>My other 3 RA* drives came from an old established University down even >>narrower staircases. At this end I cheated, as I was moving them on my >>own by then I brought them into the house by wheelbarrow :) >> > >--- >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > > From dcoward at pressstart.com Tue Nov 3 15:03:03 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: NAC(Need a copy) MicroAngelo manual Message-ID: <19981103124556.1866e8fc.in@mail.pressstart.com> Yesterday, while digging around for a Interfacer 1 board, I came across my Micro Diversions MicroAngelo S-100 board. If anyone can make me a copy of the manual, I can send you a few $s. I may also need images of the EPROMs. It only has 3 of the 4 sockets filled and the windows have been uncovered for years. If it helps, the board also says Rev 1. ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From Marty at itgonline.com Tue Nov 3 15:03:56 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd) Message-ID: <1998Nov03.160325.1767.155819@smtp.itgonline.com> Hi Doug, Regarding the Apple I, no I'm not confusing it with the Lisa 1 to 2 upgrade. I'll see if I can locate the source of the Apple II upgrade for the faithful that had bought the original Apple I. Concerning my brain-dead software, this IS a list devoted to obsolete technology isn't it? I don't have to use edlin or copy con to reply however............. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd) Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 11/3/98 2:25 PM On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Marty wrote: > I don't know if this is actually true but I seem to recall reading > somewhere that Apple gave free Apple II's to those Apple I purchaser's > that sent in their original Apple I. Does anyone know if there is any > truth to that? I've never heard that. Sure you're not thinking of the Lisa 1 -> Lisa 2 upgrade program? BTW, Marty, how can I help you upgrade to a mail reader with a built-in quoting mechanism? Are you using an old version of some brain-dead Microsoft product? -- Doug ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Nov03.142550.1767.75047; Tue, 03 Nov 1998 14:25:51 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id LAA00824; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:23:38 -0800 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id LAA54022 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:23:24 -0800 Received: from behemoth.host4u.net (behemoth.host4u.net [209.150.128.29]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id LAA25 532 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:23:23 -0800 Received: from localhost (yowza@localhost) by behemoth.host4u.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA03404 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:23:21 -0600 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:23:12 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Doug Yowza To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd) In-Reply-To: <1998Nov03.140835.1767.155763@smtp.itgonline.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers X-Sender: yowza@behemoth.host4u.net X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From yowza at yowza.com Tue Nov 3 15:10:03 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: A record? In-Reply-To: <199811032046.PAA24863@chmls05.mediaone.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Jon Healey wrote: > My plan was to put them in my Cellar. However the only access was a > narrow wooden stairway. The solution? Rip through the cement floor of > my attached garage removing a store room wall that was in the way and > then dig a ramp into the floor that drops 4 feet to the cellar floor > level. Finally have the cement experts come in and cut 4 foot doorway > in my 10" think foundation wall and then have the whole lot re-cemented > and the doorway framed up. I think we have a winner! -- Doug From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Nov 3 15:30:13 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Apple I clone (was Re: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd)) Message-ID: <981103163013.23e00226@trailing-edge.com> >The Apple 1 discussion reminds me of some (evil) thougts I had a while back. >What do the people on this list think of building an Apple I as a "homebrew" >project? Without much work, I was able to dig up a schematic and boot rom >listing for an A1, and the parts are all (mostly) readily available. What about the dynamic MOS shift registers in the video? When I had to do Apple I repairs in the early 80's these were "out of production" parts, but I could always start tearing apart some early-to-mid-70's video terminals and find some in there. >If the purpose is education rather than collector's value, have I still sold >my soul to the devil? What if I then tell people I have "an Apple 1 (-ish) >computer", thereby letting me brag about building it myself, if not the >actual authenticity? If you like the Apple I architecture, sure, it's a fine thing for you to do. I'd put my own efforts into other architectures (the TIMSAI is one obvious example), but I readily admit that the choice is obviously up to the whims of the builder and nothing else! Tim. From yowza at yowza.com Tue Nov 3 15:33:48 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd) In-Reply-To: <1998Nov03.160325.1767.155819@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Marty wrote: > Regarding the Apple I, no I'm not confusing it with the Lisa 1 to 2 > upgrade. I'll see if I can locate the source of the Apple II upgrade > for the faithful that had bought the original Apple I. Hmm, if Apple didn't make that offer, perhaps I will: turn in your old stinky Apple 1 to me, and I'll upgrade you to a brand-spanky-new iMac. Offer ends soon, so hurry! > Concerning my brain-dead software, this IS a list devoted to obsolete > technology isn't it? I don't have to use edlin or copy con to reply > however............. Well, I've been using software that's done proper email quoting since the early 1980's, long before WinNT was even a pimple on Bill Gate's face :-) -- Doug From ai705 at osfn.org Tue Nov 3 15:46:46 1998 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Spring Cleaning In-Reply-To: <199811031720.MAA03191@charity.harvard.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Dellett, Anthony wrote: > offering these for sale here first before sending them off to ebay. > > IMSAI 8080 W/8080 Processor Card, SIO4 (Godbout w/docs), RAM64 (Godbout > w/docs), PIO8 (IMSAI) > Kaypro I (incl. boot disk) > Kaypro II (incl. boot disk) > Kaypro IV (incl. boot disk) > NorthStar Horizon (not working) > NorthStar Advantage (works completely, with boot disk) > Osborne I (not working) > Osborne Executive (incl. boot disk) > Processor Technology SOL w/SOLOS personality module > Sanyo CP/M System (with software) > > 8" DS/DD Floppy Drive (in wooden enclosure) and Controller (Godbout w/docs) > 8" SS/SD Floppy Drive (no enclosure) > 8" SS/SD Dual Drive Subsystem (ICOM) > 8" Hard Disk Drive in enclosure w/controller (Fujitsu Hard Drive, Godbout > > A word of warning... I'd like to sell these things to someone on the list > but I'll only accept "reasonable" offers. On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > What is a reasonable offer on an IMSAI, collector > to collector? If we're talking ebay values, > forget it. There will also be the additional On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > $200-$300 depending on condition and what's included. The docs alone > might bring up to a $50 premium. Of course, price is normally a market > driven thing, and you happen to be in the second hottest market in the > world by being on this list. A list-driven bidding war once drove the > price up to $1000 of a *very* complete IMSAI with a bunch of spare cards > and docs. Exactly the problem. A list bidding war doesn't seem to me to be a whole lot better than an Ebay one. I would be prepared to offer $20 to $250 depending on the item, but I am sure a lot of people on this list would do the same. Does it matter that it is actually going to a good home? What about a promise that it won't be sold until someone pries my eventually stiff fingers off of it? I would expect virtually all other collecting fields have gone through similar turmoil. You take some stuff, you take some people who want it and the only way to keep score is with money. I suspect reasonable is a bit higher than my guess or Doug's. To me collector to collector is either trade or maybe 4 or 5 cents on the original retail dollar. If it doesn't mean that, then it may as well be put on Ebay. Why? Admittedly I have not bought a whole lot of currently "hot" collectible computer items, but in aggregate, my Ebay purchases, hardware, software, new and old, come in at less than a double digit percentage of what was quote/unquote the MSRP. -- Stephen Dauphin From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Nov 3 15:58:50 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: DOS browser In-Reply-To: <363E0992.D05CC079@bigfoot.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at Nov 02, 1998 01:35:48 PM Message-ID: <199811032158.OAA00656@calico.litterbox.com> Arachne runs great on the 486/33 I installed it on under caldera DR-DOS. I have an issue with my ppp provider (as opposed to my ISDN provider) that prevents me from getting a good connect with it, but I'll keep y'all posted if you want. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From dcoward at pressstart.com Tue Nov 3 15:56:31 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Honeywell machine ID needed Message-ID: <19981103133925.1897e030.in@mail.pressstart.com> I'm looking for an ID on this Honeywell ????. The main board is wire wrapped and the chips date from 1970,1971. On the bottom is a 3 pin (2 used) female Molex connector I assume is for power. And a 6 pin male. Pictures are at: http://www.best.com/~dcoward/hw6.jpg http://www.best.com/~dcoward/hw5.jpg http://www.best.com/~dcoward/hw4.jpg http://www.best.com/~dcoward/hw3.jpg http://www.best.com/~dcoward/hw2.jpg http://www.best.com/~dcoward/hw1.jpg Of course, I forgot to take a picture of the inside. Thanks ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Nov 3 16:02:55 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: <199811031131.MAA03005@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Nov 03, 1998 12:52:33 PM Message-ID: <199811032202.PAA00694@calico.litterbox.com> Clearly the qualifications for classic computers aren't rarity, if the commodore 64 qualifies. Until recently at least it was the most popular brand of home computer ever, with some 4 million units sold. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From ai705 at osfn.org Tue Nov 3 15:59:22 1998 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: <363D9D78.68E794BC@creative-net.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Alice Blakeman wrote: > An Epson Equity has just as much "classic" qaulity as an IBM S/34 or a > PDP....just in a different category is all, and smaller. Everyone gets hung > into their own niche and it's easy to see other machines as "junkers"...... > > > > At 07:04 PM 11/2/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > >Yes, but fortunately the starting date doesn't move forwards as well. In > > > >other words, OK, some 386 PCs with custom chips in them are now classics > > > >on this list (I have a problem with saying that, BTW...). > > > > > > I tend to agree with you. Discussion of ten-year-old IBM PC clones > > > isn't as interesting. Dare I cause a schism by suggesting that Still though, this may be a good stepping off point to discuss whether there are any near classic models that will have some appeal. Many 386/486 cpus will flow to the landfill post y2K and it would be a good idea to get a head start on a personal want list if any qualify. It might be way early to debate the merits/demerits of Sony PC products and that shouldn't be the topic. However, there are companies, some defunct, which might be more interesting than most, many with lineage to at least the AT and some back to XT days. So, any unique models or features? ALR? AST? Northgate? Zeos? Everex? Leading Edge? Anything with a cool LED readout? Plenty of IBM models of course. Backplane models? Stuff with odd cpu or riser cards? I've got a Mitsubishi 286 myself with a weird memory card stuck in a non-ISA slot and seemingly no internal BIOS setup. Unlike much older classic computers there should be plenty of these for everybody and anybody. The trick will be to know what you want before they are cut loose. The list may be preoccupied with that 10 year discussion limit, but I don't see preparation for the next wave of material as too off topic. Remember this isn't just about collecting computers, but actually saving models and brands more interesting than average. Better to be prepared than kvetch afterward that some model was hot and too bad you can't find it nowadays. I believe this topic has been discussed before, but this time I am willing to take notes and post a summary about a year from now. Keep this note as a reminder and anytime you want to add something, post it to the list if you think we'll all benefit or email me privately. So, does anybody want to nominate some weirdo or arcane possibilities? Would anybody like to go riffle through their complete run of Byte and cull interesting stuff from the reviews and ads? -- Stephen Dauphin From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Nov 3 16:20:33 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: from "Stephen Dauphin" at Nov 03, 1998 04:59:22 PM Message-ID: <199811032220.PAA00856@calico.litterbox.com> The old 286 machines usually had a setup disk, rather than a bios interface on ROM. I'd do a search on the model number and see if any web site has archived the disk. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Nov 3 16:25:02 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Apple I clone (was Re: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd)) In-Reply-To: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B5090A26ED@RED-MSG-45> Message-ID: Ahh... a replica.... I like it. Could a case be made to remanufacture the kit without Apple being concerned? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Paul Kearns wrote: > The Apple 1 discussion reminds me of some (evil) thougts I had a while back. > What do the people on this list think of building an Apple I as a "homebrew" > project? Without much work, I was able to dig up a schematic and boot rom > listing for an A1, and the parts are all (mostly) readily available. > > I know it wouldn't be a real Apple 1, and it wouldn't be worth $40,000 8-). > But it'd be interesting, to me anyway, to live though hand-building a > working computer from just a bundle of wires, as well as having a "manly" > computer -- none of this sissy disk drive stuff. If nothing else, it seems > like good soldering practice! > > If the purpose is education rather than collector's value, have I still sold > my soul to the devil? What if I then tell people I have "an Apple 1 (-ish) > computer", thereby letting me brag about building it myself, if not the > actual authenticity? > > Thanks for any comments! > > Paul Kearns > paulk@microsoft.com > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Nov 3 16:30:15 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: Apple I clone (was Re: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd)) In-Reply-To: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B5090A26ED@RED-MSG-45> Message-ID: I knew someone who built a KIM-1 from schematics. His departure is that he did it all on the S100 bus. He ran it for a number of years while we were in school together. I need to find out what happened to that machine. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Paul Kearns wrote: > The Apple 1 discussion reminds me of some (evil) thougts I had a while back. > What do the people on this list think of building an Apple I as a "homebrew" > project? Without much work, I was able to dig up a schematic and boot rom > listing for an A1, and the parts are all (mostly) readily available. > > I know it wouldn't be a real Apple 1, and it wouldn't be worth $40,000 8-). > But it'd be interesting, to me anyway, to live though hand-building a > working computer from just a bundle of wires, as well as having a "manly" > computer -- none of this sissy disk drive stuff. If nothing else, it seems > like good soldering practice! > > If the purpose is education rather than collector's value, have I still sold > my soul to the devil? What if I then tell people I have "an Apple 1 (-ish) > computer", thereby letting me brag about building it myself, if not the > actual authenticity? > > Thanks for any comments! > > Paul Kearns > paulk@microsoft.com > From thomas at 0000000.com Tue Nov 3 16:44:53 1998 From: thomas at 0000000.com (Thomas Poff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:04 2005 Subject: 8051 board [was: Apple I clone] References: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B5090A26ED@RED-MSG-45> Message-ID: <199811032256.OAA16608@0000000.com> Hi, This doesn't fall into the category of 10 year-old computers but... I was interested to find out that New Micros has a fully assembled 8051 based single board computer for $39 with a C compiler, assembler, Forth interpreter. The board seems to be fairly nice... includes a monitor ROM, 8 kb of RAM [expandable], RS232, simple LCD driver, among other things. 's pretty cool. Mine arrived today. Their site is http://www.newmicros.com It's been awhile since I did anything on the 8051. I really want to do an Ethernet+TCP/IP implementation on top of it. A TCP/IP + Ethernet hackerboard. Anyone think it's a good idea? Thomas From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Nov 3 16:53:27 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: 8051 board [was: Apple I clone] In-Reply-To: <199811032256.OAA16608@0000000.com> Message-ID: <13401051310.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [8051 SPC, TCPIP?] Two words: Port Linux. ------- From pjoules at joules.enterprise-plc.com Tue Nov 3 18:32:57 1998 From: pjoules at joules.enterprise-plc.com (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Almost on topic VMS 5.2 help please Message-ID: I have just been given a MicroVAX 3100 from work on 'semi permanent loan'. The problem is that no one knows the SYSTEM user's password. I have tried the break in procedure in the manuals but after resetting UAFALTERNATE to 0 and running AUTHORIZE the password is not reset. I have noticed that if I run SYSGEN and set UAFALTERNATE to 0 and then do a SHOW UAFALTERNATE it says 0 but if I then exit SYSGEN and restart it the run SHOW UAFALTERNATE again it says 1. I dont know if this gives any clues as to what is happening. If any of the VMS experts on the list can help out I would be very grateful. Regards Pete From jruschme at exit109.com Tue Nov 3 17:28:40 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: from Stephen Dauphin at "Nov 3, 98 04:59:22 pm" Message-ID: <199811032328.SAA14204@crobin.home.org> > On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Alice Blakeman wrote: > > Still though, this may be a good stepping off point to discuss whether > there are any near classic models that will have some appeal. Many > 386/486 cpus will flow to the landfill post y2K and it would be a good > idea to get a head start on a personal want list if any qualify. > > So, any unique models or features? ALR? AST? Northgate? Zeos? Everex? > Leading Edge? Anything with a cool LED readout? Plenty of IBM models of > course. Backplane models? Stuff with odd cpu or riser cards? Hmm... well, there's the Zenith 248 (a '286) and its '386 decendant which were passive backplane, as were some Wyse systems. The Wyse machines as well as the Dell System 210 (another 286) were interesting for their cool LCD readouts. ALR is interesting in that it made some screamers, usually with a modular architecture that would let you upgrade processor generations by replacing a processor module. (Too bad that the modules were usually too expensive to make that worthwhile.) I also happen to have two Zeos 486's with the so-called "Modular" motherboard. Basically, the ISA slots, all the ports, and most of the logic is on the motherboard. A processor daughtercard contains the CPU chip, cache module, and oscillator. Apparently, they made both 386 and 486 systems with this setup, though both of mine are 486s (a DX33 (now DX2/66) with the TurboCache module and a DX50 (not a DX2!) with no cache). Both are in what Zeos called its "Supercase" desktop case (fair amount of space, *two* fans). You might want to add the Dell System 220 to the list. This is a low-profile 20mhz '286 system that came out about the same time as the first PS/2s. Dell was clearly following what it assumed was the trend since the system only had a 3.5" floppy (no room for an internal 5.25") and a 3'5" IDE hard disk (miserable Conner 340), onboard VGA, etc. It's interesting in that it was from the era when the debate was over whether a *really* fast 286 was actually a better deal than a 386. Unfortunately, I chucked mine several years back after it died. Anybody know if Dell ever produced any of the System 100s? These were an 8088 (possibly 8086) box which I think was supposed to compete with the PS/2 Model 25. Then there's the MCA boxes. A Tandy 4000 (5000?) is interesting in that it was, I believe, the first non-IBM MCA box. Similarly, there is probably something to be said for some of the NCR MCA boxes. Portables- probably anything in a lunchbox format is interesting. Anything that uses Pen input is interesting. Any "luggable" after the Compaq Portable II is probably interesting just on the priciple that it likely a standard board and could be upgraded to something "current". Personally, I have a soft sport for the NCR Safari NSX20, a fairly early "notebook" and definately very stylish. (I just saw one in an AT&T closet and would kill to get it. I personally have the successor the SL/25 aka 3171, but mine has the typical broken plastics where the hinges attach.) Needless to say also that the IBM 110 (sold only in Japan), the ThinkPad with the "butterfly" keyboard, and the Toshiba Libretto will all also be pivotal. This, of course, is just the PC compatibles. Then you have the instant-classic iMac and the 20 Anniversary Mac. I also suspect that the 601-based PowerMacs will have some collector status as being first of a breed. Speaking of which, there is the BeBox. I'll leave someone else to sort out the collectable workstations and other computers. <<>> From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Nov 3 17:37:30 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: <199811032202.PAA00694@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Jim Strickland wrote: > Clearly the qualifications for classic computers aren't rarity, if the > commodore 64 qualifies. Until recently at least it was the most popular > brand of home computer ever, with some 4 million units sold. I heard the number was closer to 17 million. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From pjoules at joules.enterprise-plc.com Tue Nov 3 18:49:42 1998 From: pjoules at joules.enterprise-plc.com (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: <363BA48E.B647F076@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: On this subject, but perhaps not quite on topic, I have a VGA monitor which performs perfectly well if it is left on all of the time but if it is switched off for more than an hour or so then it takes time for the picture to reappear. Strangely it seems that the longer it is switched off the longer it takes to 'warm up', in the extreme case after bieng off for a week or so it can take half an hour or so for the pidcture to reappear and the brightnedd will fluctuate for some time after that. Has anyone got any idea what is happening? Regards Pete From yowza at yowza.com Tue Nov 3 17:54:01 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: <199811032328.SAA14204@crobin.home.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, John Ruschmeyer wrote: > Portables- probably anything in a lunchbox format is interesting. Anything > that uses Pen input is interesting. That's the main reason I collect portables, it's the only realm that still has any real innovation. Here's a heads-up: get a Timex Data-Link watch. Not only is it the most useful PDA I've found, but it's virtually guaranteed to be collectible as one of the first useful wearable computers. Other collectibles made recently: Casio Cassiopeia, the first Windows CE box; Cross CrossPad; Toshiba Libretto; the IBM 701 (w/butterfly keyboard), etc. -- Doug From mark_k at iname.com Tue Nov 3 17:18:14 1998 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Looking for Sony V7021 IC data sheet and Amiga UNIX question Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone have a data sheet for the Sony V7021 IC? This is a video decoder that can be used to convert composite video or S-video into RGB. I can't find mention of it on Sony's web site at all. I need the info because I want to convert an old Vidi-RGB unit from PAL to NTSC. The Vidi RGB is a video colour splitter, primarily intended for use with old Amiga or ST monochrome video digitisers to allow colour still pictures to be grabbed. It also provides a feature connector on which are the RGB signals from the V7021 IC that it uses. I have a PAL model, but want to convert it for NTSC use. Changing the crystal will be necessary, but I guess other components may need to be altered too. Alternatively, does anyone have an NTSC Vidi-RGB that they want to sell? Next subject is Amiga UNIX (the commercial UNIX product sold by Commodore circa 1990-1991, not NetBSD etc.) A couple of years ago, I bought a copy of Amiga UNIX 2.03. This was developed before CD-ROMs were very popular, and so the main OS came on a 150MB QIC tape. A couple of weeks ago I finally got a suitable tape drive, and I've backed up all files from the tape onto an MO disk for safe-keeping; it amounted to about 70MB compressed. Out of the box, Amiga UNIX requires a Commodore hard disk controller. I have a GVP HD controller instead. I read ages ago that someone has created patches for the OS to run on GVP controllers. What I'd like to know is: - Are there any web pages about Amiga UNIX? - How many versions of this OS were there? Is mine the most recent? - Is it possible to get Amiga UNIX to install by making alternative install floppies which contain driver code for GVP controllers? If anyone has info about this, or just has a different version, please contact me. (Is there a mailing list for discussion of Amiga UNIX?) Regards, -- Mark Knibbs mark_k@iname.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Nov 3 18:02:40 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT Message-ID: <19981104000245.26152.qmail@hotmail.com> While we're talking about weird PC clones, today I tried to take apart an HP Vectra (1986 or so) at my school. I didn't have much desire to play with it, but it has a fairly odd configuration. It has a motherboard, and on it, and ISA bus w/cards and two other cards. One looks like the drive controller but it has a molex connector attached to it from the PSU. The other card isn't even an ISA card, and I couldn't get it out. Anyone know how this machine is arranged? >> An Epson Equity has just as much "classic" qaulity as an IBM S/34 or a >> PDP....just in a different category is all, and smaller. Everyone gets hung >> into their own niche and it's easy to see other machines as "junkers"...... >> >> > > At 07:04 PM 11/2/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >> > > > >> > > >Yes, but fortunately the starting date doesn't move forwards as well. In >> > > >other words, OK, some 386 PCs with custom chips in them are now classics >> > > >on this list (I have a problem with saying that, BTW...). >> > > >> > > I tend to agree with you. Discussion of ten-year-old IBM PC clones >> > > isn't as interesting. Dare I cause a schism by suggesting that > >Still though, this may be a good stepping off point to discuss whether >there are any near classic models that will have some appeal. Many >386/486 cpus will flow to the landfill post y2K and it would be a good >idea to get a head start on a personal want list if any qualify. > >It might be way early to debate the merits/demerits of Sony PC >products and that shouldn't be the topic. However, there are companies, >some defunct, which might be more interesting than most, many with >lineage to at least the AT and some back to XT days. > >So, any unique models or features? ALR? AST? Northgate? Zeos? Everex? >Leading Edge? Anything with a cool LED readout? Plenty of IBM models of >course. Backplane models? Stuff with odd cpu or riser cards? > >I've got a Mitsubishi 286 myself with a weird memory card stuck in a >non-ISA slot and seemingly no internal BIOS setup. > >Unlike much older classic computers there should be plenty of these for >everybody and anybody. The trick will be to know what you want before >they are cut loose. > >The list may be preoccupied with that 10 year discussion limit, but I >don't see preparation for the next wave of material as too off topic. >Remember this isn't just about collecting computers, but actually saving >models and brands more interesting than average. Better to be prepared >than kvetch afterward that some model was hot and too bad you can't find >it nowadays. > >I believe this topic has been discussed before, but this time I am >willing to take notes and post a summary about a year from now. Keep this >note as a reminder and anytime you want to add something, post it to the >list if you think we'll all benefit or email me privately. > >So, does anybody want to nominate some weirdo or arcane possibilities? >Would anybody like to go riffle through their complete run of Byte and >cull interesting stuff from the reviews and ads? > > > -- Stephen Dauphin > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Nov 3 18:10:20 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT Message-ID: <19981104001022.13046.qmail@hotmail.com> Better get your priorities straight, man! The Libretto is just a little notebook. The CrossPad will probably be forgotten soon enough. I wish I could forget the Cassiopeia; I don't know if Windows CE is significant out of dozens of other OSs but I think that's a good bet. But, why did you leave out the Pilot? It's got to be the most popular of PDAs. > >> Portables- probably anything in a lunchbox format is interesting. Anything >> that uses Pen input is interesting. > >That's the main reason I collect portables, it's the only realm that still >has any real innovation. > >Here's a heads-up: get a Timex Data-Link watch. Not only is it the most >useful PDA I've found, but it's virtually guaranteed to be collectible as >one of the first useful wearable computers. > >Other collectibles made recently: Casio Cassiopeia, the first Windows CE >box; Cross CrossPad; Toshiba Libretto; the IBM 701 (w/butterfly keyboard), >etc. > >-- Doug > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Tue Nov 3 18:21:38 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: <19981104001022.13046.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Better get your priorities straight, man! The Libretto is just a > little notebook. It's the first little notebook with a TFT and Pentium. I.e., the first big notebook in little notebook form-factor. > The CrossPad will probably be forgotten soon enough. The CrossPad will fail because of it's price, but it's a very cool idea. Paper is still useful, and a paper pad that you can upload to your computer is *very* useful. > I wish I could forget the Cassiopeia; I don't know if Windows CE is > significant out of dozens of other OSs but I think that's a good bet. Come on, it's Microsoft. The first version of anything from Microsoft is collectible. (I'm hoping that I can collect the last version of Microsoft software some day soon.) > But, why did you leave out the Pilot? It's got to be the most popular > of PDAs. I included the Pilot under "etc." The point was that classic computers didn't stop being made after the PC came out. -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Tue Nov 3 18:25:40 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Fwd: PRANK OF A LIFETIME Message-ID: [off topic, but I like to help when I can :-] >Please distribute this to everyone (on earth, that is) you know. > >When John Glenn returns from space, everybody dress in ape suits. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 3 15:04:13 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 In-Reply-To: <199811030329.WAA18285@gate.usaor.net> from "Jason Willgruber" at Nov 2, 98 10:27:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1000 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981103/bb250d77/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 3 15:10:14 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: <001a01be06f3$39bc1680$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from "Geoff Roberts" at Nov 3, 98 04:58:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1215 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981103/05b82351/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 3 15:12:53 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 In-Reply-To: <363EC667.55886F0D@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Nov 3, 98 04:01:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 596 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981103/e1fffb2e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 3 15:28:22 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: PDP11 training troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <199811031458.JAA08224@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at Nov 3, 98 09:58:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2397 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981103/c92b643c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 3 15:33:36 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: POST Cards (Was: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 3, 98 09:49:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1569 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981103/4d0f6bb1/attachment.ksh From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Nov 3 18:37:53 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT Message-ID: <199811040040.TAA27355@gate.usaor.net> Now that this is sort of on the topic of PDA's, would the Tandy Zoomer be considered a collectible? It's not 10 years old, but it is a bit odd. Also does anyone have one of those old IBM's? I'm not too sure of the model, but I know that it was a mini-laptop, and the HD was about half the size of a standard laptop drive. Anyway, does anyone have one of these that they'd want to sell or trade? If you do, contact me by personal email. I also have a WANG WLTC laptop up for trade. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ From dogas at leading.net Tue Nov 3 18:40:57 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Spring Cleaning Message-ID: <01be078b$c959b2a0$a8c962cf@devlaptop> p.s. and the Osborne executive... thanks again. - Mike -----Original Message----- From: Dellett, Anthony To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 12:42 PM Subject: Spring Cleaning >I know it's not spring but it is time for me to thin out my collection. I'm >offering these for sale here first before sending them off to ebay. > >Email me with offers to anthony.dellett@staples.com. I dont get time to >check the list much so posing a reply there will get you nowhere. > >Atari 800 (not working, parts?) >Atari 1050 Disk Drive (two of them) >Commodore 64 (complete in box, I have two like this) >Commodore 1541 Disk Drive (2 in box, one works, one doesn't) >Commodore 1541 II Disk Drive (complete in box) >Commodore 128 (complete in box) >Commodore 1571 Disk Drive (complete in box) >Compupro S-100 Enclosure (motherboard and PS only, no cards) >IMSAI 8080 W/8080 Processor Card, SIO4 (Godbout w/docs), RAM64 (Godbout >w/docs), PIO8 (IMSAI) >Kaypro I (incl. boot disk) >Kaypro II (incl. boot disk) >Kaypro IV (incl. boot disk) >NorthStar Horizon (not working) >NorthStar Advantage (works completely, with boot disk) >Osborne I (not working) >Osborne Executive (incl. boot disk) >Processor Technology SOL w/SOLOS personality module >Sanyo CP/M System (with software) >TI-99/4A Computer (beige model, in box) >TRS-80 Model III (with some software) > >8" DS/DD Floppy Drive (in wooden enclosure) and Controller (Godbout w/docs) >8" SS/SD Floppy Drive (no enclosure) >8" SS/SD Dual Drive Subsystem (ICOM) >8" Hard Disk Drive in enclosure w/controller (Fujitsu Hard Drive, Godbout >Controller w/docs) > >I also have some random Commodore stuff that I cant remember (modem, >paddles, trackball, etc...) I can take a closer look if anyone is >interested. > >A word of warning... I'd like to sell these things to someone on the list >but I'll only accept "reasonable" offers. > >Tony > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Nov 3 18:53:15 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: POST Cards (Was: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 3, 98 09:33:36 pm Message-ID: <199811040053.QAA29310@saul9.u.washington.edu> Tony Duell wrote: > The PERQ (how do I always manage to get that machine mentioned) had a > thing called the DDS - Digital Diagnostic System. It was a 3 digit > decimal counter that was cleared by the system reset button, and could be > incremented by a CPU instruction. The official use for it was that it > would be incremented as the diagnostics tested out bits of the machine > during booting. If the DDS stopped somewhere, you looked up the code in > the manual and it (hopefully) told you what was wrong. > > In fact, the manual wasn't that useful if you were really trying to fix > the machine. Some of the error codes were explained very badly. Don't ask > how I found that out. Uh, how DID... oh wait, you said don't ask. By having all the errors come up for other reasons and then using your usual test equipment and figuring out what the manual should have said? By getting a copy of the super-secret internal manual? By bribing someone? :) > However, it could also be used as you described. There was a system > routine to set the DDS to a given value (bascially, the OS kept the > current count and sent the appropriate number of pulses to the DDS to set > it to the value you wanted). It was useful for indicating where a program > had got to Did it roll over when it hit 999? That would make it a lot more useful. Was there any chance of the OS's count being off from the real value? (I've decided I don't like write-only registers, which may be what we have here). -- Derek From thomas at 0000000.com Tue Nov 3 18:51:01 1998 From: thomas at 0000000.com (Thomas Poff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: 8051 board [was: Apple I clone] References: <13401051310.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <199811040103.RAA16763@0000000.com> Hi, That would be taking religion a little _too_ far. :-) I'm thinking a little more bandwagon and doing the internet appliance thing but also keeping the board open for hobbyists. Thomas ---- Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:53:27 -0800 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: 8051 board [was: Apple I clone] In-Reply-To: <199811032256.OAA16608@0000000.com> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN [8051 SPC, TCPIP?] Two words: Port Linux. ------- From yowza at yowza.com Tue Nov 3 18:54:39 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: <199811040040.TAA27355@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > Now that this is sort of on the topic of PDA's, would the Tandy Zoomer be > considered a collectible? It's not 10 years old, but it is a bit odd. It is to me. I don't remember if the Newton or the Zoomer came out first, but it was certainly one of the first pen-based PDA's. I still use my Zoomer today because of the great battery life. And GEOS runs pretty well on that slow 8088 -- try that with Windows CE! > Also does anyone have one of those old IBM's? I'm not too sure of the > model, but I know that it was a mini-laptop, and the HD was about half the > size of a standard laptop drive. Anyway, does anyone have one of these > that they'd want to sell or trade? If you do, contact me by personal > email. The PC110? The HD was a standard PCMCIA Type-III drive. Try comp.sys.{handheld,palmtop}. Or are you thinking of the Dauphin DTR-1 (made by IBM) with the 1.8" KittyHawk drive? -- Doug From aaron at wfi-inc.com Tue Nov 3 18:58:59 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Almost on topic VMS 5.2 help please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The way I broke into my VS3100 went something like this: >>> B/R5:1 SYSBOOT> SET/STARTUP OPA0: SYSBOOT> SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 SYSBOOT>C $ SPAWN $ @SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP $ SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSTEM $ RUN AUTHORIZE UAF> MODIFY SYSTEM/PASSWORD=YOURPASSWORD UAF> EXIT $ @SYS$SYSTEM:SHUTDOWN When you reboot, you should get the username/password prompt and will be prompted to change your password after you log in. I used this to get into my VS3100, before I got the hobbyist license through DECUS... Hope this helps, Aaron Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." --> Scott Draves From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Nov 3 19:21:11 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT Message-ID: <199811040123.UAA07044@gate.usaor.net> > > It is to me. I don't remember if the Newton or the Zoomer came out first, > but it was certainly one of the first pen-based PDA's. I still use my > Zoomer today because of the great battery life. And GEOS runs pretty well > on that slow 8088 -- try that with Windows CE! > Yeah. I can agree to that - I've had the batteries in mine for a year, not, and it's still going. Only problem is there's no backlight. > > The PC110? The HD was a standard PCMCIA Type-III drive. Try > comp.sys.{handheld,palmtop}. Or are you thinking of the Dauphin DTR-1 > (made by IBM) with the 1.8" KittyHawk drive? > That must be what I'm thinking of. I remember the name "IBM KittyHawk". I guess that was the name of the drive, not the computer. What was the entire size of the computer? From what I have been told, it was sotr of like a fat PDA. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Nov 3 19:29:08 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Do You Have a PDP-11/03L? Message-ID: <363FADE4.4CFE@sfu.ca> Hi Group: If you have one of these machines, I have a question! Please email me or reply to the newsgroup! Thanks in advance, Kevin mcquiggi@sfu.ca From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 3 19:36:37 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Wrist computer (Was: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > Here's a heads-up: get a Timex Data-Link watch. Not only is it the most > useful PDA I've found, but it's virtually guaranteed to be collectible as > one of the first useful wearable computers. MORE THAN TEN YEARS AGO: Epson produced the RC-20. It was a wrist watch with a touch screen (not very many pixels), with a Z80 (actually imitation Z80 - it wasn't Zilog), RAM, ROM, and a serial port! They never exported it outside of Japan. So all of the documentation that I have for it is in Japanese, with the exception of the sample programs (Zilog mnemonics) Now then. What is the list definition of "FIRST"? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From yowza at yowza.com Tue Nov 3 19:41:29 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: <199811040123.UAA07044@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > That must be what I'm thinking of. I remember the name "IBM KittyHawk". I > guess that was the name of the drive, not the computer. What was the > entire size of the computer? From what I have been told, it was sotr of > like a fat PDA. Read all about it: http://www.eskimo.com/~toby/dtr1/ -- Doug From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Nov 3 19:47:26 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Nov 3, 98 03:37:30 pm Message-ID: <199811040147.RAA13520@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 783 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981103/b8a71dfd/attachment.ksh From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 3 19:47:32 1998 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: References: <19981104001022.13046.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981103204732.009c8500@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Doug Yowza had spoken clearly: >On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Max Eskin wrote: >Come on, it's Microsoft. The first version of anything from Microsoft is >collectible. (I'm hoping that I can collect the last version of Microsoft >software some day soon.) Here, here! >> But, why did you leave out the Pilot? It's got to be the most popular >> of PDAs. >I included the Pilot under "etc." The point was that classic computers >didn't stop being made after the PC came out. Well, what if someone ported OS-9/68K to the pilot (which runs a Motorola DragonBall processor - 16Mhz 68000 core CPU)... that would be interesting... a new palm computer running a classic OS??? Just a funky thought... "Merch" From yowza at yowza.com Tue Nov 3 19:47:18 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Wrist computer (Was: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > MORE THAN TEN YEARS AGO: > Epson produced the RC-20. It was a wrist watch with a touch screen (not > very many pixels), with a Z80 (actually imitation Z80 - it wasn't Zilog), > RAM, ROM, and a serial port! [...] > Now then. What is the list definition of "FIRST"? I want one! Of course, there have been many watches with some sort of CPU for a long time (like the very collectible HP-01 calculator watch). The Data-Link is the first one I've personally found useful enough to wear, and it is the only one I personally know of that is user-programmable (there's even Linux support for downloading WristApps to its 6805). -- Doug From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 3 18:51:32 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Do You Have a PDP-11/03L? In-Reply-To: <363FADE4.4CFE@sfu.ca> Message-ID: >If you have one of these machines, I have a question! Please email me or >reply to the newsgroup! I've several /03's, but they're all a different model than what you're looking for based on the Powersupply info you posted on the dec newsgroup. I checked through my printsets and they're different, plus I didn't find any info in the stuff I've got on the front panel cable. Do you have a model number for the backplane? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From gram at cnct.com Tue Nov 3 19:37:01 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: 8051 board [was: Apple I clone] References: <13401051310.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <363FAFBD.E040D086@cnct.com> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > [8051 SPC, TCPIP?] > > Two words: > Port Linux. > > ------- Uh, that 8kb of RAM had better be _way_ expandable. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Tue Nov 3 19:57:15 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 References: Message-ID: <363FB47B.49841171@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > [Single key entry] of BASIC keywords] > > There were several such utilities sold as add-ons for the TRS-80 Mod > > One that I recall, and at least a couple for the Color Computer. I > > LDOS (an operating system for the TRS-80 Model 1 and 3) and TRS-DOS 6.x > (which was essentially LDOS) for the Model 4 came with a program called > KSM/FLT. That stood for Key Stroke Multiply and it let you assign a > string to the letter keys on the keyboard (I think it was CLEAR+letter > key). Either one of the standard files, or one everybody created early > on was for single-key entry of BASIC keywords. Jawohl. I had KSM files on my 4p (both LDOS and TRSDOS6) to use in BASIC and JCL programming, for telecommunications, for Scripsit and SuperScripsit, for Multiplan and Visicalc. Among other things. I forget if I built the BASIC files from one that came with the OS or one I pulled off of Compu$erve. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Nov 3 19:55:57 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT Message-ID: <199811040200.VAA15934@gate.usaor.net> Yep. That's what I'm looking for. For some reason, I thought it was called the IBM KittyHawk, though. Does anyone have one that they'd be willing to part with? I'll either pay a fair price, or I'm willing to trade. If anyone wants a WANG WLTC (I can send a picture to anyone that wants one), I have one up for trade. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ > > Read all about it: > http://www.eskimo.com/~toby/dtr1/ > > -- Doug > From gram at cnct.com Tue Nov 3 20:22:35 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT References: <19981104001022.13046.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.1.32.19981103204732.009c8500@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <363FBA6B.8D6371AF@cnct.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Well, what if someone ported OS-9/68K to the pilot (which runs a Motorola > DragonBall processor - 16Mhz 68000 core CPU)... that would be interesting... > a new palm computer running a classic OS??? Wander over to . While I love OS-9, it's still closed source. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 3 20:49:40 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Looking for Sony V7021 IC data sheet and Amiga UNIX question In-Reply-To: (message from Mark on Tue, 03 Nov 1998 23:18:14 +0000) References: Message-ID: <19981104024940.1106.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mark asked: > Does anyone have a data sheet for the Sony V7021 IC? This is a video decoder That's not a Sony part number. Sony used CX on older stuff, and CX on newer stuff, where letter is M for memory, P for processor, A for analog, D for other digital, etc. What other numbers are on the part? Does it actually bear a Sony logo? From Roger at Sinasohn.com Tue Nov 3 20:52:32 1998 From: Roger at Sinasohn.com (Roger Sinasohn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Acorn BBC Micros Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981103181820.56ef0e44@mail.sinasohn.com> One of the advantages of a web site -- you get tips like this: >From: Crispin Boylan >To: roger@sinasohn.com >Subject: Your Computer Collection > >Hi > >Love the site, great to see someone preserving computing history :) > >I live in the UK, and I noticed you don't have our best Micro in your >collection - The Acorn BBC Micro Model B! This is a real charmer, a bit >like the Apple II really, I don't believe it sold well in the states >though due to the aforementioned puter. If you want to put one in your >collection, I know a site selling them: > >http://www.karoo.co.uk/8bs/8bsad.htm >These are really good and refurbished, ?30 excluding postage to foreign >countries, but I know you will get a good deal if you buy one. > >Hope this helps you! > >Cheers. >Cris. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 3 21:04:19 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Almost on topic VMS 5.2 help please Message-ID: <199811040304.AA07285@world.std.com> < >>> B/R5:1 < SYSBOOT> SET/STARTUP OPA0: < SYSBOOT> SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 I've seen that but I've not used it. The procedure I use is basically out of the VMS docs. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 3 21:04:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Do You Have a PDP-11/03L? Message-ID: <199811040304.AA07354@world.std.com> < If you have one of these machines, I have a question! Please email me o < reply to the newsgroup! < < Thanks in advance, < < Kevin < mcquiggi@sfu.ca I still have an 11/03 and various parts what the problem? Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 3 21:04:37 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Kittyhawk drive (was Re: Classic != IBM AT) In-Reply-To: <199811040123.UAA07044@gate.usaor.net> (roblwill@usaor.net) References: <199811040123.UAA07044@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <19981104030437.1232.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Jason Willgruber" wrote: > That must be what I'm thinking of. I remember the name "IBM KittyHawk". I You remember wrong; it was the Hewlett-Packard Kittyhawk, and was manufactured by Citizen Watch Co. Unfortunately HP never found a sufficient market for the thing. Now IBM has introduced an even smaller drive with much higher capacity. It is a CompactFlash Type II-sized (36.4 x 23.8 x 5 mm) 340 MB hard disk: http://www.storage.ibm.com/hardsoft/diskdrdl/micro/ Of course, the Kittyhawk and the new IBM drive are off-topic for this list until 2002 and 2008, respectively. From apulo at joyce.eng.yale.edu Tue Nov 3 21:16:19 1998 From: apulo at joyce.eng.yale.edu (Tony Dellett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Spring Cleaning Message-ID: <363FC703.DCF8A8FA@joyce.eng.yale.edu> My $.02 When I mean reasonable, I mean at least if not more what I acquired the items for. I'm not going to throw money away for collectors sake. I'm willing to let alot of these things go for less than Ebay prices but I'm not going to give them away at a personal loss (and no, this does not mean that I want $1000 for the IMSAI). Alot of the stuff I will let go for between $20 and $250. Dont assume just because I dont want this stuff anymore that I'm going to gouge people, but I'm also not going to gouge myself. Tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 3 20:29:05 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: <199811030650.WAA18926@saul9.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Nov 2, 98 10:50:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1001 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981104/5c3f084d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 3 20:55:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Apple I clone (was Re: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd)) In-Reply-To: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B5090A26ED@RED-MSG-45> from "Paul Kearns" at Nov 3, 98 11:57:45 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 817 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981104/fb70d85b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 3 21:03:00 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: from "Pete Joules" at Nov 4, 98 00:49:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1155 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981104/641f1698/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 3 21:06:51 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Do You Have a PDP-11/03L? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 3, 98 05:51:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 639 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981104/6953e47a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 3 21:12:22 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: POST Cards (Was: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: <199811040053.QAA29310@saul9.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Nov 3, 98 04:53:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2030 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981104/ff7ebd2c/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Tue Nov 3 21:17:27 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: PDP11 training troubleshooting Message-ID: <199811040317.AA18924@world.std.com> >Were you give (or allowed) a KM11 maintenance card? For those who've not >seen one, it's a board (acutally 2 boards...) that you stick in special >slot in some DEC machines. It's got 28 lights and 4 switches on it. In >the 11/45 it'll let you single-step the microcode (or even the clock >sequencer), display flag signals, etc. You can get the uPC on the panel, >of course. I actually have one of those boards with the unibus signal overlay. It also plugs into a connector on one of the control boards in an RX01 drive. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 3 21:04:45 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Do You Have a PDP-11/03L? In-Reply-To: Kevin McQuiggin "Do You Have a PDP-11/03L?" (Nov 3, 17:29) References: <363FADE4.4CFE@sfu.ca> Message-ID: <9811040304.ZM4385@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 3, 17:29, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > Subject: Do You Have a PDP-11/03L? > > If you have one of these machines, I have a question! Please email me or > reply to the newsgroup! I've still got at least one... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 3 21:24:13 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:05 2005 Subject: Acorn BBC Micros In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981103181820.56ef0e44@mail.sinasohn.com> from "Roger Sinasohn" at Nov 3, 98 06:52:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1206 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981104/06b51ec9/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Nov 3 22:08:40 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > Other collectibles made recently: Casio Cassiopeia, the first Windows CE > box; Cross CrossPad; Toshiba Libretto; the IBM 701 (w/butterfly keyboard), > etc. And all the recent Psion handhelds (3, 3a, 3c, 5) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Nov 3 22:22:22 1998 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Almost on topic VMS 5.2 help please Message-ID: <003201be07aa$c57b9d00$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 4 November 1998 14:36 Subject: Re: Almost on topic VMS 5.2 help please >< >>> B/R5:1 >< SYSBOOT> SET/STARTUP OPA0: >< SYSBOOT> SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 > >I've seen that but I've not used it. The procedure I use is basically out >of the VMS docs. SYSUAFALT from the docs (I think that's what it is) mostly works too, though it might not on some systems. The VMS faq mentions it, and suggests the other way as being better. YMMV. I've used both at different times on VS 3100/4000 and Uvax II machines, and on a 6000 (or two). cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Nov 3 22:26:19 1998 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: CRT decay Message-ID: <004301be07ab$52f2d2c0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 4 November 1998 14:50 Subject: Re: CRT decay >> On this subject, but perhaps not quite on topic, I have a VGA monitor >> which performs perfectly well if it is left on all of the time but if it >> is switched off for more than an hour or so then it takes time for the >> picture to reappear. Strangely it seems that the longer it is switched >> off the longer it takes to 'warm up', in the extreme case after bieng off >> for a week or so it can take half an hour or so for the pidcture to >> reappear and the brightnedd will fluctuate for some time after that. Has >> anyone got any idea what is happening? > > >At a guess the first anode voltage (second grid for those across the >Pond) is fluctuating. That'll affect the brightness but not much else. Have a look for a low value, high voltage electrolytic capacitor in the vicinity of the G2 supply. Possibly even on the neckboard of the tube. Change it. Sanyo TV's (others too, but Sanyos seem especially prone) exhibit this problem also. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From gram at cnct.com Tue Nov 3 23:20:49 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT References: Message-ID: <363FE431.C4DC6DC8@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > > Other collectibles made recently: Casio Cassiopeia, the first Windows CE > > box; Cross CrossPad; Toshiba Libretto; the IBM 701 (w/butterfly keyboard), > > etc. > > And all the recent Psion handhelds (3, 3a, 3c, 5) Be careful with the Psion 3. They are _not_ Y2K compliant. My wife was playing around with hers and found out the hard way -- and removing batteries has not brought it back to life. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Nov 3 23:23:32 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Acorn BBC Micros In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 4, 98 03:24:13 am Message-ID: <199811040523.VAA08839@saul2.u.washington.edu> > One thing. I assume you're being sold a UK version, which will connect to > a UK televison (UHF channel 36, PAL colour), or to a composite monitor, > or to a TTL RGB monitor, all at UK scan rates. There is supposed to be a > US version (I have a little data on it), but I've never seen one in the > UK. I assume that would use US scan rates. How does the UK channel-numbering scheme work, anyway? (or what are the conventions for connecting external stuff to TV's?) The whole philosophy of the government's role in TV and radio broadcasting is different than here. That seems to have good and bad consequences. I've spent some time in London, read assorted computer and TV manuals (including the BBC manual) and the TV listings in the weekend papers, but don't really know what a UK citizen would knnow. So let me guess: US UK NTSC -- smooth and flaky PAL -- flickery but more reliable (still prone to interference, but fewer color-related symptoms, based on my watching Wimbledon from an old flat near Knightsbridge) VHF frequency bands: VHF frequency bands: channels 2-13 ? (1 was scrapped in short order) UHF frequency bands: UHF frequency bands: channels 14-99? ? (not sure -- little-used, many conflicting terms and marketing) Satellite and cable TV bands: Satellite and cable TV bands: Too complicated for me to guess ? Stations identified by freq. Stations identified by semi-arbitrary name and call letters (e.g., BBC1, ITV, C5) Loose network affiliations Tight network affiliations because of yet easy to find freqs. historical monopoly; difficult to find freqs.; "tuning in" may be required to relate ideal channel number with actual band number (which changes from area to area) (Is this true or am I totally wrong?) Devices attached to ch. 3 or 4 Devices attached to ch. 36? (whichever is unused) in past Now, more sensible input scheme SCART which seems excellent AFAIK on modern sets Closed-captioning and a few Teletext; would put US closed-captioning to other "trick" services which shame except the TV turns it off when you may have rather sneaky imple- change channels; useful for many things mentations Does that about sum it up? :) We could get into a discussion about the history and politics in the US and the UK, but that's *really* off-topic. To keep this on the topic of the thread, I *am* interested in getting a BBC. I guess I'd need a PAL monitor and a 220-volt, 50-hz power supply to run it though. Does anyone have any ideas? -- Derek From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Nov 3 23:43:24 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Do You Have a PDP-11/03L? In-Reply-To: <199811040304.AA07354@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981103214324.0317ec6c@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Allison: I have an 11/03L carcass and am hoping to use the backplane for a set of 11/73 boards I've acquired for a friend. I need info on the power supply, hopefully a print set, or in the least some info on the pinout of the 10 conductor ribbon cable that runs from the supply to the front panel. My machine has _no_ front panel! I want to determine which lines are the (presumably) DC OK, HALT, RESTART, etc, so that I can install the 11/73 gear and control the system. Secondly, the +12 VDC line from the supply is sitting at 9.5V, no load. There may be a problem, I can fix it but the print set would be most helpful. Hope you can help, Kevin At 10:04 PM 98/11/03 -0500, you wrote: >< If you have one of these machines, I have a question! Please email me o >< reply to the newsgroup! >< >< Thanks in advance, >< >< Kevin >< mcquiggi@sfu.ca > >I still have an 11/03 and various parts what the problem? > >Allison > > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Nov 3 23:47:39 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Do You Have a PDP-11/03L? In-Reply-To: <9811040304.ZM4385@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <363FADE4.4CFE@sfu.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981103214739.0317beec@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Again: And, I forgot to ask, do any of yours have an H7861 power supply? This is the model I need info on. Thanks again, Kevin At 03:04 AM 98/11/04 GMT, you wrote: >On Nov 3, 17:29, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: >> Subject: Do You Have a PDP-11/03L? >> >> If you have one of these machines, I have a question! Please email me or >> reply to the newsgroup! > >I've still got at least one... > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Nov 3 23:58:44 1998 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Do You Have a PDP-11/03L? References: <3.0.1.32.19981103214324.0317ec6c@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <363FED14.DAEC6FE@idirect.com> >Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > Hi Allison: > > I have an 11/03L carcass and am hoping to use the backplane for a set of > 11/73 boards I've acquired for a friend. Jerome Fine replies: While I agree it will be a great challenge to get the backplane working, you will probably was to use a 22 bit backplane so you can have more than 1/4 Meg of memory. That assumes that the original backplane was 18 bits to start with. However, I would suspect that many, if not most, 11/03 systems may have had the leads for 22 bit addresses used for power since I suspect that the 11/03 used some of those 22 bit leads in that manner. I am not sure I said this correctly, but please exercise extreme caution if you intend to put an 11/73 into an 11/03 backplane. As a somewhat more practical suggestion, I doubt that a BA23 box would be all that expensive and it would be much better suited to an 11/73 of any kind and is already a 22 bit backplane. Any of the other boards you rescue from the 11/03 are likely to be 11/73 and 22 bit compatible, but not all. If I remember correctly, some early versions of the DLV11-J (M8049) were not able to handle 22 bit addresses. Also, which OS do you intend to run? Will you want it to be Y2K compatible? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine Year 2000 Solutions for the RT-11 Operating System and Applications (Sources not always required) From tom at tgeller.com Wed Nov 4 01:02:34 1998 From: tom at tgeller.com (Tom Geller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Electronic Phoenix Project Message-ID: <199811040702.XAA27019@proxy3.ba.best.com> I thought this would interest some folks here. It's about a project to archive old software. --Tom ---begin excerpt from TidBITS #453 --- **Electronic Phoenix Project Mailing List Formed** -- Several people have volunteered for the Electronic Phoenix Project (EPP), my proposed organization whose mission would be to adopt orphaned software. The idea received wide interest, even resulting in an article in the Dutch newspaper Het Parool. To facilitate further discussion, I've created an open mailing list. To subscribe, send email to and to sign off, send email to . The list is not moderated, so try to limit discussions to creating and operating the EPP. (Suggestions for programs to adopt aren't necessary - many have already been suggested in TidBITS Talk.) I look forward to seeing what emerges. [ACE] ---end excerpt--- --- Tom Geller, San Francisco * http://www.tgeller.com From webmaster at rlrnews.com Wed Nov 4 01:14:41 1998 From: webmaster at rlrnews.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Fw: Fwd: Your attention, please... Message-ID: <4.1.19981104011433.009162c0@mail.rlrnews.com> Forwarded by Dominique Cormann ---------------- Original message follows ---------------- From: Chris To: hardware-list@rlrnews.com Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 01:14:41 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Your attention, please... -- >Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 22:27:44 -0800 >Reply-To: rcain@SPRYNET.COM >Sender: American Parlimentary Debate Association >From: Rob Cain >Subject: Your attention, please... >X-To: APDA@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU >To: Multiple recipients of list APDA > > URGENT!! Please distribute this to everyone you know. > > When John Glenn returns from space, everybody dress up in ape suits. > We have six days in which to bury the Statue of Liberty up to her > head. > > Your cooperation is appreciated. Get the information you need at http://www.hardwaregroup.org/ Get info on the RC5 Challenge! rc5@rlrnews.com! From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Nov 4 01:51:30 1998 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Fwd: Your attention, please... Message-ID: <021901be07c7$fbf55c00$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Chris To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 4 November 1998 19:16 Subject: Fw: Fwd: Your attention, please... >Forwarded by Dominique Cormann >---------------- Original message follows ---------------- > From: Chris > To: hardware-list@rlrnews.com > Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 01:14:41 -0600 > Subject: Fwd: Your attention, please... >-- > >>Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 22:27:44 -0800 >>Reply-To: rcain@SPRYNET.COM >>Sender: American Parlimentary Debate Association >>From: Rob Cain >>Subject: Your attention, please... >>X-To: APDA@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU >>To: Multiple recipients of list APDA >> >> URGENT!! Please distribute this to everyone you know. >> >> When John Glenn returns from space, everybody dress up in ape suits. >> We have six days in which to bury the Statue of Liberty up to her >> head. >> >> Your cooperation is appreciated. > >Get the information you need at http://www.hardwaregroup.org/ >Get info on the RC5 Challenge! rc5@rlrnews.com! Maybe this means something to the Americans in the list, but I don't get the connection. Someone care to enlighten me? Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Nov 4 02:43:15 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Acorn BBC Micros In-Reply-To: "D. Peschel" "Re: Acorn BBC Micros" (Nov 3, 21:23) References: <199811040523.VAA08839@saul2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <9811040843.ZM4755@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 3, 21:23, D. Peschel wrote: > > US UK > > NTSC -- smooth and flaky PAL -- flickery but more reliable 60Hz vertical scan - smooth 50Hz vertical scan - more flickery NTSC - flaky PAL - more reliable > VHF frequency bands: VHF frequency bands: > channels 2-13 ? > (1 was scrapped in short order) 2-13 (or was it 2-12?) TV was removed from the VHF band in Europe some years ago. The frequencies have been reallocated for various comms uses. > UHF frequency bands: UHF frequency bands: > channels 14-99? ? > (not sure -- little-used, many > conflicting terms and marketing) 15-65 IIRC > Satellite and cable TV bands: Satellite and cable TV bands: > Too complicated for me to guess ? Mostly C-band? Ku-band > "tuning in" may be required to relate ideal > channel number with actual band number > (which changes from area to area) although they are published in various places > Devices attached to ch. 3 or 4 Devices attached to ch. 36? > (whichever is unused) in past Ch.36 is actually allocated to other uses, so when the "Channel 5" TV station went live, mainly using channels around ch.36, lots of people had problems :-) Most of the TV stations use channels separated by 3 chanels (so 33, 36, 39) to minimise interference effects. > To keep this on the topic of the thread, I *am* interested in getting a BBC. > I guess I'd need a PAL monitor and a 220-volt, 50-hz power supply to run it > though. Does anyone have any ideas? There was a U.S. version with a 110VAC PSU. The standard PSU is a switcher, though, and I know of one person who (inadvertantly) used it successfully on 120V. I got a phone call one day (in my capacity as engineering support person at an Acorn distributor) from a guy who'd bought a BBC and a monitor. He was having trouble with the monitor; it turned out he was working in Saudi Arabia, and had been using a TV originally. All was well, until he upgraded to a monitor bought in the UK. It turned out the monitor was intended for 240V, and didn't like Saudi electricity. Then it dawned on us -- the Beeb was OK, even though it was also running on the same Saudi 120V. YMMV :-) I think the 50/60Hz difference *may* be a problem, since a US monitor will prefer to sync to 60Hz. The US BBCs had a modified MOS ROM, with US scan rates and "colour" changed to "color" in the messages and BASIC keywords. That was about the only difference, AFAIR. The line frequency won't bother the Beeb PSU, but the monitor may not like the scan rate. It's very similar to a CGA-style monitor, BTW. An Amiga colour monitor should work well (Philips CM8833 or equivalent). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From gram at cnct.com Wed Nov 4 03:27:25 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Fwd: Your attention, please... References: <021901be07c7$fbf55c00$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <36401DFD.BBCA8C57@cnct.com> Geoff Roberts wrote: > >> URGENT!! Please distribute this to everyone you know. > >> > >> When John Glenn returns from space, everybody dress up in ape suits. > >> We have six days in which to bury the Statue of Liberty up to her > >> head. > >> > >> Your cooperation is appreciated. > Maybe this means something to the Americans in the list, but I don't get the > connection. > Someone care to enlighten me? It's a reference to the film "Planet of the Apes" in which Charlton Heston plays an astronaut who crashlands on a planet where humans are animals and apes have a civilization. The punchline happens after he's headed off into the wilderness and finds the Statue of Liberty (a New York harbor landmark) mostly buried and somewhat the worse for wear and realizes he's been home all along. There were four sequels made, though the scriptwriters started on the third in the series with a large handicap due to an ancient doomsday bomb having sterilized the Earth at the end of the second movie. The cable channel American Movie Classics recently ran all five films (several times each, sometimes in pan-and-scan, sometimes in letterbox), plus a two-hour special on the history and production of the series featuring interviews with most of the principal actors and hosted by the recently-departed Roddy McDowell, which I guess must have been his last project (back in the late 60s / early 70s when the films were made he played a chimpanzee in the first and third movies and the son of that chimp in the fourth and fifth, then he played yet another chimp in the short-lived television series in 1974). The book by Pierre Boulle, written and originally published in French, was rather better. There were no computers in the film or television series, except for some standard prop blinkenlights. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From franke at sbs.de Wed Nov 4 07:21:11 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: ebay offerings to listmembers Message-ID: <199811041200.NAA28828@marina.fth.sbs.de> > One of the really nice things about ebay is the bidding system where the > auction is handled automatically and each bidder knows immeadiately what the > current bid is. As such, one suggestion to people wanting to offer stuff to > listmembers first might be to put in on ebay as a private auction with a > reserve price high enough to protect the seller. I personally have not used > or participated in private auctions, but the idea seems sound. The only problem is that with any kind of auction the money will take the sole role for decision. This is a build in feature, since not only the seller reserves the right to sell only for the highest possible price, also the bidder gets the sole right to buy if his bid is the highest. In fact, your idea isn't bad at all, because when it is realy about to be an acution, eBay would serve as a management system (offers haggle the same option for a closed auction ?) to give several iterations and let everyone see whats the personal value in there. Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Wed Nov 4 07:41:56 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: KIM-1 (Was: Apple I clone (was Re: Apple I Computer For Sale (fw Message-ID: <199811041221.NAA08943@marina.fth.sbs.de> > I knew someone who built a KIM-1 from schematics. His departure is that > he did it all on the S100 bus. He ran it for a number of years while we > were in school together. I need to find out what happened to that > machine. KIM-1 from schematics ? And where did he get the 6530-2 and -3 without taking them from a real KIM ? I guess it was more like a KIM alike with 6532's (with a bit of additional decoding, changing two lines and just not using half of the RAM they could work as 6530 without ROM) and a 2716 (also with additional address decoding). I think about a KIM clone since almost two years (the KIM was my second computer, the first I did build myself), but I can'T come up with a solution for the 6530 problem other than building new chips, or changing the design. Also the keyboad might be a problem, together with various discrete parts, that are just look different nowadays. Even if the main parts are placed like in the original (maybe hiding the ROM below the CPU using SMD parts :) it will be a vissible diference, greater than just in the conection layer. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Wed Nov 4 07:41:56 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd) Message-ID: <199811041221.NAA09215@marina.fth.sbs.de> Kai: > Anybody know the original distribution? 50 to the Byte Shop in Palo Alto, > a bunch to Computer Mart in NY, did Apple sell direct? Two are over here in Munich - one guy bought them directly from Apple back then. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Wed Nov 4 07:52:32 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Apple I clone (was Re: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd)) Message-ID: <199811041232.NAA18055@marina.fth.sbs.de> > The Apple 1 discussion reminds me of some (evil) thougts I had a while back. > What do the people on this list think of building an Apple I as a "homebrew" > project? Without much work, I was able to dig up a schematic and boot rom > listing for an A1, and the parts are all (mostly) readily available. Not evil - just fun. And I belive it would be easy to distinguish from the original A1 - at least if you know to see the difference between a 1978 and a 1998 PCB. Also I think it might not be possible to dig up realy all parts (haven't they used a very custom design for the video logic ?). So there replacements have to be. And after all: ICs tend to have production dates ... So, not evil at all, if you don't go for an exact copy of the board and the technologies used and you not remarking the chips (Gee, I have heard of remarking PII-266 to PII-333, but a 6502 4MHz to a 6502 1MHz ?). Althrugh I would suggest to add something that might add an additional distingtion, like Additional text one the board an mayve cuting of an edge. > I know it wouldn't be a real Apple 1, and it wouldn't be worth $40,000 8-). > But it'd be interesting, to me anyway, to live though hand-building a > working computer from just a bundle of wires, as well as having a "manly" > computer -- none of this sissy disk drive stuff. If nothing else, it seems > like good soldering practice! A wired clone ? I don't think that would cause _any_ problem. Servus hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Wed Nov 4 06:38:11 1998 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Fwd: Your attention, please... Message-ID: <01be07ef$fbe4b300$f17d38cb@help-desk> Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au -----Original Message----- From: Geoff Roberts To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 4 November 1998 19:24 Subject: Re: Fwd: Your attention, please... >-----Original Message----- >From: Chris >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Wednesday, 4 November 1998 19:16 >Subject: Fw: Fwd: Your attention, please... > > >>Forwarded by Dominique Cormann >>---------------- Original message follows ---------------- >> From: Chris >> To: hardware-list@rlrnews.com >> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 01:14:41 -0600 >> Subject: Fwd: Your attention, please... >>-- >> >>>Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 22:27:44 -0800 >>>Reply-To: rcain@SPRYNET.COM >>>Sender: American Parlimentary Debate Association >>>From: Rob Cain >>>Subject: Your attention, please... >>>X-To: APDA@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU >>>To: Multiple recipients of list APDA >>> >>> URGENT!! Please distribute this to everyone you know. >>> >>> When John Glenn returns from space, everybody dress up in ape suits. >>> We have six days in which to bury the Statue of Liberty up to her >>> head. >>> >>> Your cooperation is appreciated. >> >>Get the information you need at http://www.hardwaregroup.org/ >>Get info on the RC5 Challenge! rc5@rlrnews.com! > > >Maybe this means something to the Americans in the list, but I don't get the >connection. >Someone care to enlighten me? > >Geoff Roberts >Computer Systems Manager >Saint Marks College >Port Pirie South Australia. >My ICQ# is 1970476 >Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) > 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) > 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) > 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) > > > From fauradon at pclink.com Wed Nov 4 06:44:30 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 Message-ID: <002301be07f0$eae9f820$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Hi, The ZX81 was my first computer, I bought the kit form which made it even cheaper, I got the 1K version and used it for something like 4 years. In the last two it had been placed in a big keyboard with real keys, the fun part was cuting up the membrane and gluing the legends to the new keys. The ZX has the full bus available at the rear and this allowed for a lot of expansions to be built. I think I still have a folder full of project from magazines of the time: color display, led display, rom "cartridges", joysticks, memory expasions, keyboards and more. It was one of the most interesting computers of it's time since it lended itself to hack. pretty much every computer magazine had software listings for it and most electronic magazines had hardware hacks. Even some magazines like popular science (yes science, actually Science et Vie in France) had listings and hacks for it almost every month. Come to think of it I have a picture in mind from the first start trek movie V'ger the space probe that has been expanded to point of being intelligent, The ZX81 had that potential: expandable to the max. It used to be the #1 on my wanted list (I have two now). Long live the ZX81... Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ From franke at sbs.de Wed Nov 4 08:00:48 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Fwd: Your attention, please... Message-ID: <199811041240.NAA11500@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> URGENT!! Please distribute this to everyone you know. >>> When John Glenn returns from space, everybody dress up in ape suits. >>> We have six days in which to bury the Statue of Liberty up to her >>> head. >>> Your cooperation is appreciated. > Maybe this means something to the Americans in the list, but I don't get the > connection. > Someone care to enlighten me? Remember the movie Planet of the Apes ? A set of astronauts stranded on a foreign planet where ape like men are ruling an humen likes are just primitive. At the end they discovered, what thruout the film is just a vague idea - it's the earth of the future. And to enhance this idea the last szene just shows the hero rinding along a beach (into the evening and ... no, not a cowboy movie :), where the Statue of Liberty is burried (just head and torch are visible). A final picture ready made for US viewers. Or maybe you have seen Space Balls ? *g* Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Wed Nov 4 06:44:55 1998 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: A record? Message-ID: <01be07f0$ec9e5ee0$f17d38cb@help-desk> -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 4 November 1998 8:42 Subject: Re: A record? >On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Jon Healey wrote: > >> My plan was to put them in my Cellar. However the only access was a >> narrow wooden stairway. The solution? Rip through the cement floor of >> my attached garage removing a store room wall that was in the way and >> then dig a ramp into the floor that drops 4 feet to the cellar floor >> level. Finally have the cement experts come in and cut 4 foot doorway >> in my 10" think foundation wall and then have the whole lot re-cemented >> and the doorway framed up. > >I think we have a winner! Seconded! All in favour? Cheers Geoff Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From mbg at world.std.com Wed Nov 4 06:58:04 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Do You Have a PDP-11/03L? References: <363FADE4.4CFE@sfu.ca> Message-ID: <199811041258.AA11082@world.std.com> What I have are BA11-M boxes... H960 power supply and H9270 backplane. I'll have to pull out my books to check on your power supply and backplane so I can figure out what you have. I suspect a BA11-N of some sort... Yes, the initials MBG are me... I was a developer of RT-11 for 15 years... vtcom/transf is mine as are the design of the ethernet drivers. But I was also responsible for just about every part of the system at some time over that 15 years... from utilities to the monitor to device drivers. Megan From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Nov 4 07:12:12 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Almost on topic VMS 5.2 help please Message-ID: <199811041312.AA20329@world.std.com> < SYSUAFALT from the docs (I think that's what it is) mostly works too, th < it might not < on some systems. The VMS faq mentions it, and suggests the other way a < being better. I've used set uafalternate 1 one maybe 16 or more systems in the last year to get to teh point where I can change the password so far all VMS in the 4.2 to 6.1 range with the expected result. No, I didn't print the whole procedure to the list. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Nov 4 07:12:19 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Acorn BBC Micros Message-ID: <199811041312.AA20403@world.std.com> < NTSC -- smooth and flaky No, stand for Never The Same Color. < < UHF frequency bands: UHF frequency bands: < channels 14-99? ? UHF is 14-83, In the area west of Boston there are at least 30 uhf channels in use and four are networks. Cable deliver uses far more channels, but the extras are in the VHF range from where Ch13 (VHF) leaves off to where 14 (uhf) begins. < Satellite and cable TV bands: Satellite and cable TV bands: < Too complicated for me to guess ? The cable channles due to media used can use the frequencies that are committed to VHF hi, and other communications bands. Satellite use 4GHz and 12GHz bands with a limited number of channels in teh lower of the two and a far greater amount in the high band. < < Stations identified by freq. Stations identified by semi-arbitrary name < and call letters (e.g., BBC1, ITV, C5) in the US a radio/TV station can be owned by anyone that can afford it and meet the technical requirements. All stations regards less of service are assigned a set of identifer call letters and a fewquency/channel as appropriate. < Loose network affiliations Tight network affiliations because of < yet easy to find freqs. historical monopoly; difficult to Actually for the major US networks (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS...) network coupling cane be very close. < Devices attached to ch. 3 or 4 Devices attached to ch. 36? < (whichever is unused) in past Also there are RF devices that use high uhf (ch 67 and above) to avoid local interference or conflicts with the common cable converter output use. < To keep this on the topic of the thread, I *am* interested in getting a < I guess I'd need a PAL monitor and a 220-volt, 50-hz power supply to run < though. Does anyone have any ideas? One presumes you want it to take 60hz 115v to 220 50hz... be preapred to pay dearly. There is no reason that 220V 60hz shouldn't work. Allison From mbg at world.std.com Wed Nov 4 07:12:43 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Do You Have a PDP-11/03L? References: <363FADE4.4CFE@sfu.ca> Message-ID: <199811041312.AA20585@world.std.com> sorry for that... it was meant for private mail, not the list... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From franke at sbs.de Wed Nov 4 08:39:28 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Acorn BBC Micros Message-ID: <199811041319.OAA16605@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> US UK >> >> NTSC -- smooth and flaky PAL -- flickery but more reliable > 60Hz vertical scan - smooth 50Hz vertical scan - more flickery > NTSC - flaky PAL - more reliable Due a smaler coulour band signal. The slow colour change is a real pain for movies but the 50 vs 60 Hz isn't visible, althrugh when used with computers, both are just bad. > I think the 50/60Hz difference *may* be a problem, since a US monitor will > prefer to sync to 60Hz. Al long as you are using an RGB monitor, almost any will syncronize well. For FBASthere is a problem, but most actual TV sets should display PAL and NTSC (and 50/60 Hz) without any doubt. Timing isn't any longer generated from the power line. Also, since most TV controllers are IC based, they use just one type everywhere. This might not be true for the low price TV sets, but any TV I (or friends of mine) had within the last 10 years could syncronize 60 Hz b&w and all (but one tested in 1984) could also display NTSC signals. Gruss hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From foxvideo at wincom.net Wed Nov 4 07:39:32 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Fwd: Your attention, please... In-Reply-To: <021901be07c7$fbf55c00$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic .edu.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19981104083932.007ae1c0@mail.wincom.net> At 06:21 PM 11/4/1998 +1030, you wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Chris >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Wednesday, 4 November 1998 19:16 >Subject: Fw: Fwd: Your attention, please... > > >>Forwarded by Dominique Cormann >>---------------- Original message follows ---------------- >> From: Chris >> To: hardware-list@rlrnews.com >> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 01:14:41 -0600 >> Subject: Fwd: Your attention, please... >>-- >> >>>Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 22:27:44 -0800 >>>Reply-To: rcain@SPRYNET.COM >>>Sender: American Parlimentary Debate Association >>>From: Rob Cain >>>Subject: Your attention, please... >>>X-To: APDA@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU >>>To: Multiple recipients of list APDA >>> >>> URGENT!! Please distribute this to everyone you know. >>> >>> When John Glenn returns from space, everybody dress up in ape suits. >>> We have six days in which to bury the Statue of Liberty up to her >>> head. >>> >>> Your cooperation is appreciated. >> >>Get the information you need at http://www.hardwaregroup.org/ >>Get info on the RC5 Challenge! rc5@rlrnews.com! > > >Maybe this means something to the Americans in the list, but I don't get the >connection. >Someone care to enlighten me? > >Geoff Roberts >Computer Systems Manager >Saint Marks College >Port Pirie South Australia. >My ICQ# is 1970476 >Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) > 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) > 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) > 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) > > > Sounds like none of "The Planet of the Ape" movies didn't make it down under. Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From franke at sbs.de Wed Nov 4 10:00:10 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: DOS browser Message-ID: <199811041440.PAA18741@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Arachne runs great on the 486/33 I installed it on under caldera DR-DOS. > I have an issue with my ppp provider (as opposed to my ISDN provider) that > prevents me from getting a good connect with it, but I'll keep y'all posted > if you want. Jep, and if speaking of lean systems for 'low' CPU power PCs just remember QNX - they just have a new promotion running for a 'complete' internet system on a single 1.44 floppy. Runs well on a 486 20MHz and should also be acceptable on a 386sx, but I didn't try it there. A download of the DEMO could be found at http://www.qnx.com/iat/ Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From kyrrin at jps.net Wed Nov 4 09:10:17 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Transition Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981104071017.0095a390@mail.jps.net> I'll be off the list for a couple of days while the transition to my newly-registered domain is completed. I shall return fairly soon as 'kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com.' See ya! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From Anthony.Dellett at Staples.com Wed Nov 4 09:05:41 1998 From: Anthony.Dellett at Staples.com (Dellett, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Spring Cleaning - Revisited Message-ID: <199811041514.KAA11757@charity.harvard.net> Okay, to avoid confusion, I'm going ahead and adding prices to these. Some prices are negotiable, most are firm. $10 plus shipping, the RAM cards alone are worth $10 :) Atari 800 (not working, parts?) $30 each, they work and include cables Atari 1050 Disk Drive (two of them) $30 each Commodore 64 (complete in box, I have two like this) $30 for the working grey one, the broken one is a white one and I'll sell for $10 Commodore 1541 Disk Drive (2 in box, one works, one doesn't) $25 Commodore 1541 II Disk Drive (complete in box) $35 Commodore 128 (complete in box) $25 Commodore 1571 Disk Drive (complete in box) $100, it's in beautiful shape. Compupro S-100 Enclosure (motherboard and PS only, no cards) $600, it works, it needs a DPST toggle switch (whomever owned it before me moved power off the front panel to a toggle switch in back, it broke recently) or you can move the power back to the front panel. IMSAI 8080 With: 8080 Processor Card (IMSAI) SIO4 (Godbout w/docs) RAM64 (Godbout w/docs) PIO8 (IMSAI) $40 Kaypro I (incl. boot disk) $40, this has a third party RTC upgrade in it, it needs new batteries. Kaypro II (incl. boot disk) $40 Kaypro IV (incl. boot disk) Make offer. The cards are in pretty good shape but the disk drives are shot and the power supply needs restoration. NorthStar Horizon (not working) $200. Works perfectly, comes with Graphic CP/M 2.2 NorthStar Advantage (works completely, with boot disk) $20, good for parts. Might actually be repairable. Has the modem upgrade. Osborne I (not working) $50, works great, I have CP/M and P-System boot disks Osborne Executive (incl. boot disk) $300, mostly works, needs a $5 replacement keyboard encoder Processor Technology SOL w/SOLOS personality module $30, cute little all-in-one system Sanyo CP/M System (with software) $30 TI-99/4A Computer (beige model, in box) $60 TRS-80 Model III (with some software) $50, for both 8" DS/DD Floppy Drive (in wooden enclosure) and Controller (Godbout w/docs) 8" SS/SD Floppy Drive (no enclosure) $150, it's a really nice subsystem. 8" SS/SD Dual Drive Subsystem (ICOM) $50 8" Hard Disk Drive in enclosure w/controller (Fujitsu Hard Drive, Godbout Controller w/docs) A couple of things I forgot... $30 Macintosh Portable - Needs a new display cable and battery. Includes carrying case. $50 "Fat" Macintosh - Mac 512K, works great, in original box with original packing. $20 CoCo 2 - Works peachy $30 Epson HX-20 - Brand new, never used. Works great. $50 HP 9835B - Works perfectly, even the printer. Buyers pay shipping charges FOB Lawrence, Massachusetts. I'm willing to pay parts of shipping on larger items. Whatever isn't spoken for here by next monday (11/9) will be posted on Ebay. Thanks Tony From bill at chipware.com Wed Nov 4 09:17:23 1998 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Timex datalinks (was: RE: Classic != IBM AT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601be0806$3985d250$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > Here's a heads-up: get a Timex Data-Link watch. Not only is it the most > useful PDA I've found, but it's virtually guaranteed to be collectible as > one of the first useful wearable computers. Mine's on my wrist right now. It's always either there or on my nightstand. It's extremely useful. You know there are several web sites that cover writing apps for the later models. Never thought of it as collectable. I wonder if the little bugger has a serial number on it somewhere? I got mine at the Microsoft campus store before they were generally available or even heard of. Cost less than half of what they ended up retailing for. I was there for a multimedia bootcamp. Bill Sudbrink From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 4 08:56:48 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Do You Have a PDP-11/03L? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981103214739.0317beec@ferrari.sfu.ca> References: <9811040304.ZM4385@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <363FADE4.4CFE@sfu.ca> Message-ID: >Hi Again: > >And, I forgot to ask, do any of yours have an H7861 power supply? This is >the model I need info on. I'm afraid that I don't have, I've got one with a Hxxx designation (where I think xxx might = 780, no time to look as I have to get out the door to work). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 4 08:58:26 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Do You Have a PDP-11/03L? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981103214324.0317ec6c@ferrari.sfu.ca> References: <199811040304.AA07354@world.std.com> Message-ID: >I have an 11/03L carcass and am hoping to use the backplane for a set of >11/73 boards I've acquired for a friend. Wouldn't this require a paritial rewiring of the backplane? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From franke at sbs.de Wed Nov 4 11:24:13 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT Message-ID: <199811041604.RAA11962@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> I wish I could forget the Cassiopeia; I don't know if Windows CE is >> significant out of dozens of other OSs but I think that's a good bet. > Come on, it's Microsoft. The first version of anything from Microsoft is > collectible. (I'm hoping that I can collect the last version of Microsoft > software some day soon.) First version yes, especialy when it is a gigantic flop like Windows for Pen Computing :) But when it comes to be a success - or at least it is not floping, I think there is no urgend need to find it. And until now, CE seams to stay as a Me To product (After the Newton retreat the Pilot is just the standard pen device). Gruss Hans P.S.: I'm still looking for a Cristal Newt (MP120 in clear case), and a _reasonable_ priced eMate (And of course any hard and software around the Newt, especialy development tools etc). -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Nov 4 10:49:30 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: KIM-1 (Was: Apple I clone (was Re: Apple I Computer For Sale (fw In-Reply-To: <199811041221.NAA08943@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: I'm not sure how he got around this but I know he did this at a time when the KIM was still in production and as I recall he did buy some specific parts directly from the KIM-1 manufacture. I remember the kim keyboard being genuine. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > > I knew someone who built a KIM-1 from schematics. His departure is that > > he did it all on the S100 bus. He ran it for a number of years while we > > were in school together. I need to find out what happened to that > > machine. > > KIM-1 from schematics ? And where did he get the > 6530-2 and -3 without taking them from a real KIM ? > > I guess it was more like a KIM alike with 6532's > (with a bit of additional decoding, changing two > lines and just not using half of the RAM they could > work as 6530 without ROM) and a 2716 (also with > additional address decoding). > > I think about a KIM clone since almost two years > (the KIM was my second computer, the first I did > build myself), but I can'T come up with a solution > for the 6530 problem other than building new chips, > or changing the design. Also the keyboad might be > a problem, together with various discrete parts, > that are just look different nowadays. Even if the > main parts are placed like in the original (maybe > hiding the ROM below the CPU using SMD parts :) it > will be a vissible diference, greater than just in > the conection layer. > > Gruss > Hans > > -- > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK > From dogas at leading.net Wed Nov 4 11:07:16 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: looking for a SWTP 6800 Message-ID: <01be0815$9331c340$b5c962cf@devlaptop> Hi, If anyone has one of these that they'd consider parting with, please email me. Thanks - Mike: dogas@leading.net From mbg at world.std.com Wed Nov 4 11:20:18 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Spring Cleaning - Revisited Message-ID: <199811041720.AA19956@world.std.com> Just to inject a little levity... >$30 >Epson HX-20 - Brand new, never used. Works great. Excuse me, but if it's never been used, how do you know it works great? :-) (reminds me of an actual classified ad - "Parachute, used once, never opened, small stain. - $100") Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From franke at sbs.de Wed Nov 4 12:42:43 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: KIM-1 (Was: Apple I clone (was Re: Apple I Computer For Message-ID: <199811041722.SAA29316@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> I knew someone who built a KIM-1 from schematics. His departure is that >>> he did it all on the S100 bus. He ran it for a number of years while we >>> were in school together. I need to find out what happened to that >>> machine. >> KIM-1 from schematics ? And where did he get the >> 6530-2 and -3 without taking them from a real KIM ? >> I guess it was more like a KIM alike with 6532's >> (with a bit of additional decoding, changing two >> lines and just not using half of the RAM they could >> work as 6530 without ROM) and a 2716 (also with >> additional address decoding). > I'm not sure how he got around this but I know he did this at a time when > the KIM was still in production and as I recall he did buy some specific > parts directly from the KIM-1 manufacture. I remember the kim keyboard > being genuine. Ah ja. The hardest to find parts today are the 6530-x chips, a multi fonction chip with 1 K mask programmable ROM, mask programmable chip select, I/O lines, timers and 64 Bytes of RAM. They are only available by scraping a real KIM. The nearest replacement is the 6532, witch utilizes I/O, Timer and 128 Bytes RAM. The I/O is almost the same - just two pins have to be shortened, but the chip select is fixed and not equal to none of the 6530-x. I made a design for a KIM clone years ago, but I never did build it actualy. These 6530s are just hard to replace - and if I start to replace, I could also drop most of the other additional stuff not needed today, like cassete interface or 50 mA loop, exchange the direct controlled LED by some 'intelligent' ones and the and would be a 199x KIM but no replika ... So where is the sense... Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Nov 4 08:59:48 1998 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT Message-ID: <802566B2.00577F9D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Russ Blakeman wrote: > Wanna buy some PS/2's??? I have a bunch, models 30 (8088) through 95XP (8595 not > 9595) > > John Rollins wrote: > >> >The PS/2 Model 30=286 didn't have a cable going to the riser card in it, >> >nor was it an MCA machine. It was an ISA machine, and The HD plugged into One of you thinks the 8530 (PS/2 model 30) was an 8088, the other thinks it was an 80286. I claim you're both wrong. The model 30 was IBM's first (and to my knowledge only) machine to be based on the 8086. If I am wrong, and a 286 version did exist, no doubt flames will appear in great numbers. Philip. From Anthony.Dellett at Staples.com Wed Nov 4 12:29:35 1998 From: Anthony.Dellett at Staples.com (Dellett, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Spring Cleaning - UPDATE Message-ID: <199811041837.NAA10050@charity.harvard.net> I have removed stuff that is sold or is pending sale. $10 plus shipping, the RAM cards alone are worth $10 :) Atari 800 (not working, parts?) $30 Atari 1050 Disk Drive (SIO cable included) $30 Atari 1050 Disk Drive (SIO cable included) $30 Commodore 64 (complete in box) $30 Commodore 1541 Disk Drive (in box, works, grey model) $10 Commodore 1541 Disk Drive (in box, dont work, white model) $25 Commodore 1541 II Disk Drive (complete in box) $35 Commodore 128 (complete in box) $600 IMSAI 8080 With: 8080 Processor Card (IMSAI) SIO4 (Godbout w/docs) RAM64 (Godbout w/docs) PIO8 (IMSAI) (it works, it needs a DPST toggle switch (whomever owned it before me moved power off the front panel to a toggle switch in back, it broke recently) or you can move the power back to the front panel.) $40 Kaypro I (incl. boot disk) $40 Kaypro II (incl. boot disk, this has a third party RTC upgrade in it, it needs new batteries) $40 Kaypro IV (incl. boot disk) Make offer NorthStar Horizon (not working, The cards are in pretty good shape but the disk drives are shot and the power supply needs restoration) $200 NorthStar Advantage (Works perfectly, comes with Graphic CP/M 2.2) $20 Osborne I (not working, good for parts. Might actually be repairable. Has the modem upgrade) $30 Sanyo CP/M System (with software, cute little all-in-one system) $30 TI-99/4A Computer (beige model, in box) $60 TRS-80 Model III (with some software) $150 8" SS/SD Dual Drive Subsystem (ICOM, it's a really nice subsystem) $50 "Fat" Macintosh (Mac 512K, works great, in original box with original packing) $20 CoCo 2 (Works peachy) Buyers pay shipping charges FOB Lawrence, Massachusetts. I'm willing to pay parts of shipping on larger items. Whatever isn't spoken for here by next monday (11/9) will be posted on Ebay. Thanks Tony From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Wed Nov 4 12:49:36 1998 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: <802566B2.00577F9D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at "Nov 4, 98 03:59:48 pm" Message-ID: <199811041849.NAA19062@hiway1.exit109.com> > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > Wanna buy some PS/2's??? I have a bunch, models 30 (8088) through 95XP > (8595 not > > 9595) > > > > John Rollins wrote: > > > >> >The PS/2 Model 30=286 didn't have a cable going to the riser card in > it, > >> >nor was it an MCA machine. It was an ISA machine, and The HD plugged > into > > One of you thinks the 8530 (PS/2 model 30) was an 8088, the other thinks it > was an 80286. I claim you're both wrong. The model 30 was IBM's first > (and to my knowledge only) machine to be based on the 8086. > > If I am wrong, and a 286 version did exist, no doubt flames will appear in > great numbers. Well, this is not a flame, just some illumination... :-) The original Model 30 was, in fact, an 8086, but I think I might dispute the "only" part since I assumed that the Model 25 was also an 8086. There was also, however, a 286 version of the Model 30 which came out a little later. (I'll let the IBM experts come up with the model#.) IIRC, the press at the time called it "The PC/AT Reborn". <<>> From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Nov 4 12:55:17 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: John Ruschmeyer [mailto:jruschme@hiway1.exit109.com] > There was also, however, a 286 version of the Model 30 which came out a > little later. (I'll let the IBM experts come up with the model#.) "Model 30/286", strangely enough :) Kai From Anthony.Dellett at Staples.com Wed Nov 4 12:52:26 1998 From: Anthony.Dellett at Staples.com (Dellett, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Spring Cleaning - Revisited Message-ID: <199811041900.OAA12783@charity.harvard.net> >Just to inject a little levity... > >$30 > >Epson HX-20 - Brand new, never used. Works great. >Excuse me, but if it's never been used, how do you know it worksgreat? :-) >(reminds me of an actual classified ad - > "Parachute, used once, never opened, small stain. - $100") Hahahaha! Sorry. I turned it on once to make sure it worked, put it back in the carrying case, and never touched it again :) Tony From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Wed Nov 4 08:05:29 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: <802566B2.00577F9D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <199811041859.NAA24700@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:59:48 +0100 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Philip.Belben@pgen.com > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Classic != IBM AT > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > Wanna buy some PS/2's??? I have a bunch, models 30 (8088) through 95XP > (8595 not > > 9595) > > > > John Rollins wrote: > > > >> >The PS/2 Model 30=286 didn't have a cable going to the riser card in > it, > >> >nor was it an MCA machine. It was an ISA machine, and The HD plugged > into > > One of you thinks the 8530 (PS/2 model 30) was an 8088, the other thinks it > was an 80286. I claim you're both wrong. The model 30 was IBM's first > (and to my knowledge only) machine to be based on the 8086. > > > If I am wrong, and a 286 version did exist, no doubt flames will appear in > great numbers. > Philip. IBM did produce model 25-286 and 30-286, in fact around '90 I was using this 30-286 doing CAD course in high school. The motherboard is exhangeable between 25 and 30 chassis and there was 2 ways: IBM way by special 44pin drive directly plugged into motherboard itself by ribbon or use MFM or SCSI on ISA slot. Oh, there was some 386sx version made for that case. Haven't seen this one and what was right model # for this? Jason D. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Nov 4 09:35:18 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT In-Reply-To: <199811041849.NAA19062@hiway1.exit109.com> References: <802566B2.00577F9D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at "Nov 4, 98 03:59:48 pm" Message-ID: <199811041940.OAA08263@smtp.interlog.com> On 4 Nov 98 at 13:49, John Ruschmeyer wrote: > > One of you thinks the 8530 (PS/2 model 30) was an 8088, the other thinks it > > was an 80286. I claim you're both wrong. The model 30 was IBM's first > > (and to my knowledge only) machine to be based on the 8086. > > > > If I am wrong, and a 286 version did exist, no doubt flames will appear in > > great numbers. > > Well, this is not a flame, just some illumination... :-) > > The original Model 30 was, in fact, an 8086, but I think I might dispute the > "only" part since I assumed that the Model 25 was also an 8086. > > There was also, however, a 286 version of the Model 30 which came out a > little later. (I'll let the IBM experts come up with the model#.) IIRC, > the press at the time called it "The PC/AT Reborn". > > <<>> > Both the model 25 and 30 came out in 8086 and 286 versions. The 25 had 2 286 models. 25-286 and 25LS. The models 50 and 60 were also 286s' ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Wed Nov 4 13:47:12 1998 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: DayStar adapter for IIsi Message-ID: <199811041947.OAA00589@hiway1.exit109.com> A while back I picked up a Mac IIsi which included the adapter for a DayStar accelerator (but no accel.). Given that, I hace a few questions: 1) I notice that there are two ports on the board. One is obviously for the accelerator. What is the other one? A IIsi PDS? 2) Since I don't have a DayStar card, what else (if anything) can I do with the adapter? Can I plug in a IIci cache card? 3) Anybody want to swap it for a Nubus adapter? :-) Thanks in advance... <<>> From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Nov 4 13:51:01 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT Message-ID: model 30 286 has 1.44 on disk drive eject button. mode 30 xt does not as it only has 720k drive. david In a message dated 11/4/98 10:57:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, kaikal@MICROSOFT.com writes: << > -----Original Message----- > From: John Ruschmeyer [mailto:jruschme@hiway1.exit109.com] > There was also, however, a 286 version of the Model 30 which came out a > little later. (I'll let the IBM experts come up with the model#.) "Model 30/286", strangely enough :) Kai >> From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Nov 3 14:55:41 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT References: Message-ID: <363F6DCC.C86318A7@bigfoot.com> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > model 30 286 has 1.44 on disk drive eject button. > mode 30 xt does not as it only has 720k drive. Not the thing to look for though as the "1.44" molded in does wear off. The way to tell is with the plate in the lower right cormer of the front of the machine, where it has the type number. IBM has all the old machines listed at IBM Canada at http://www.can.ibm.com/helpware/vintage.html and the numbering is noted in the pages. The 30 (8088) also has a brown base where the 30-286 has a beige base. I have a 30-286 that has 2.88 on the button....is that wrong (I used a salvaged button from another drive that was dead and haven't scraped it off yet). From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Nov 3 15:02:46 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT References: <802566B2.00577F9D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <363F6F75.675B266@bigfoot.com> Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > One of you thinks the 8530 (PS/2 model 30) was an 8088, the other thinks it > was an 80286. I claim you're both wrong. The model 30 was IBM's first > (and to my knowledge only) machine to be based on the 8086. > > If I am wrong, and a 286 version did exist, no doubt flames will appear in > great numbers. 8088 or 8086, same basic difference in that it's an XT class machine with 8 bit slots You can read the specs on the model 30 at http://www.can.ibm.com/helpware/8530.html There is indeed trillions of model 30-286 units out and about, one being where I work on the network tied to an AS/400 as a disk type workstation. The specs for it are at http://www.can.ibm.com/helpware/8530286.html There was also a model 25 and a 25-286. Both ISA machines. No need for flames, yet. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Nov 3 15:10:23 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:06 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT References: <802566B2.00577F9D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at "Nov 4, 98 03:59:48 pm" <199811041940.OAA08263@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <363F713D.49F6DBD@bigfoot.com> Lawrence Walker wrote: > Both the model 25 and 30 came out in 8086 and 286 versions. The 25 had 2 > 286 models. 25-286 and 25LS. The models 50 and 60 were also 286s' The models up to (but not including) the 50 series were ISA and after that were microchannel. The 25 came out originally as an XT class machine with an 8086 processor ( see http://www.can.ibm.com/helpware/8525.html ) and the 286 version of it was only one version that I'm aware of as seen at http://www.can.ibm.com/helpware/8525286.html The LS may be an aftermarket version, much like putting a Reply motherboard into one. All the info on the vintage IBM machines can be found starting with the index page at IBM Canada (eh!) at http://www.can.ibm.com/helpware/vintage.html From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Nov 4 15:37:40 1998 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Tandy MC5000 (was: Re: Classic != IBM AT) In-Reply-To: <363F713D.49F6DBD@bigfoot.com> References: <802566B2.00577F9D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> <199811041940.OAA08263@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981104163740.009ee2f0@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Russ Blakeman had spoken clearly: >The models up to (but not including) the 50 series were ISA and after that were >microchannel. Oh, the collectibility of MCA machines was brought up once before in this thread, and (to me, anyway) the Tandy MC5000 seems rather collectible, as one of the very few non-IBM MCA architecture machines ever sold. (I acutally saw one, once upon a time... they weren't too popular, tho.) Was this the first MCA "clone"? I'm pretty sure the MC5000 came out in '88, so it's ontrack topically. >All the info on the vintage IBM machines can be found starting with the index page >at IBM Canada (eh!) at http://www.can.ibm.com/helpware/vintage.html Hey! I'm not Canadian, and I say eh! (of course, the border is roughly 4 km away, so...... ;-) See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Nov 4 15:33:07 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: cnet: "Fraud threatens auction sites" Message-ID: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28301,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.f Extract: Online auctioneers smell a rat. Individuals who sell items over online auction sites like eBay and AuctionUniverse suspect that their bidding sessions are being artificially manipulated by phantom buyers known as "shielders" and "shills"--and that the auction sites are not doing all they can to discourage the fraud. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Nov 4 15:18:30 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Do You Have a PDP-11/03L? In-Reply-To: Kevin McQuiggin "Re: Do You Have a PDP-11/03L?" (Nov 3, 21:46) References: <363FADE4.4CFE@sfu.ca> <3.0.1.32.19981103214650.0317beec@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <9811042118.ZM5016@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Hi, Kevin. On Nov 3, 21:46, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > I have an 11/03L carcass and am hoping to use the backplane for a set of > 11/73 boards I've acquired for a friend. > > I need info on the power supply, hopefully a print set, or in the least > some info on the pinout of the 10 conductor ribbon cable that runs from the > supply to the front panel. My machine has _no_ front panel! The front panel pin numbers match the PSU numbering at the other end, so as long as you can identify pin 1, here are the connections for a real 11/03 panel: 1 BPOK H 2 BEVENT L 3 SRUN L 4 not used/not connected on the front panel 5 GND 6 GND 7 +5V 8 SPARE 9 BHALT L 10 BDCOK H On a real 11/03 panel, SPARE is connected to one end of a 220-ohm resistor; the other end of that resistor is connected to the cathode position of an LED position -- the LED isn't actually fitted -- and the anode of the LED is connected to the +5V line. The other signals are connected to a small circuit containing bus buffers and some inverters to drive 2 LEDs (POWER OK and RUN) and be driven by two toggle-switches (AUX ON grounds the BEVENT line and RUN/HALT is connected via a bus buffer to BHALT L) and a momentary changeover switch (which feeds a pair of monostables to regulate the pulse width, which then drives BDCOK H). > I want to determine which lines are the (presumably) DC OK, HALT, RESTART, > etc, so that I can install the 11/73 gear and control the system. See above. > Secondly, the +12 VDC line from the supply is sitting at 9.5V, no load. > There may be a problem, I can fix it but the print set would be most helpful. Yes, that's definitely a fault, though you should test it under load and look at the BDCOK signal from the PSU. Sorry, I only have diagrams for H876 and H780; the H8761 is a switch mode (as is the 786) but fairly different, I think. Anyway, sending a copy of the print set over the Atlantic might be slow and expensive :-) BTW, a 7861 is not original equipment for any 11/03, it came off an 11/73S or 11/23plus. Perhaps you have a 22-bit backplane as well? What's the backplane H-number? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Nov 4 15:43:50 1998 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Mac emulators? In-Reply-To: <41833245.363a691c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981104164350.00994e70@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, SUPRDAVE@aol.com had spoken clearly: >there's one i have on cd called executor2 that runs most but not all pre >system7 apps pretty good. not good with sound though. This may not help much, but if you have access to Mac ROMs, then there is an "emulator" you can get for the Atari ST line of computers. Basically, it's an interpreter-type program ( to use the differently mapped memory ) and the ROMs to execute Mac programs directly on the 680x0 of the Atari. I cannot remember if the company that sold that (that last I checked was still in business) had a ROM-board / emulator that would work in a PC... Come to think of it, the memories of this stuff are pretty rusty, so take what I just typed with a grain of salt... but it may give some folks other ideas as to where to look. HTH, "Merch" From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Wed Nov 4 15:48:04 1998 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Mac emulators? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981104164350.00994e70@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Nov 4, 98 04:43:50 pm" Message-ID: <199811042148.QAA04210@hiway1.exit109.com> > Once upon a midnight dreary, SUPRDAVE@aol.com had spoken clearly: > > >there's one i have on cd called executor2 that runs most but not all pre > >system7 apps pretty good. not good with sound though. > > This may not help much, but if you have access to Mac ROMs, then there is > an "emulator" you can get for the Atari ST line of computers. Basically, > it's an interpreter-type program ( to use the differently mapped memory ) > and the ROMs to execute Mac programs directly on the 680x0 of the Atari. > > I cannot remember if the company that sold that (that last I checked was > still in business) had a ROM-board / emulator that would work in a PC... You're thinking of Gemulator and the URL is, IIRC: http://www.emulators.com <<>> From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Nov 4 16:03:43 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Mac emulators? In-Reply-To: <199811042148.QAA04210@hiway1.exit109.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19981104164350.00994e70@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981104160343.00f01100@pc> At 04:48 PM 11/4/98 -0500, John Ruschmeyer wrote: >> Once upon a midnight dreary, SUPRDAVE@aol.com had spoken clearly: >> >> >there's one i have on cd called executor2 that runs most but not all pre >> >system7 apps pretty good. not good with sound though. >> >> This may not help much, but if you have access to Mac ROMs, then there is >> an "emulator" you can get for the Atari ST line of computers. Basically, >> it's an interpreter-type program ( to use the differently mapped memory ) >> and the ROMs to execute Mac programs directly on the 680x0 of the Atari. >You're thinking of Gemulator and the URL is, IIRC: > > http://www.emulators.com No, *you're* thinking of Gemulator. He's thinking of "Magic Sac." I had one for the Amiga, but I can't think of the name of it now. :-) - John From william at ans.net Wed Nov 4 16:21:47 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 boot prompt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I am not talking about 24/7 availability, however. The 11/750 has a lot > of custom gate arrays in it. They may be pretty reliable, but if one > fails, the you have to either buy one from DEC (assuming they still have > them in stock) or raid one from another 11/750. The PDP12 is all TTL + > discretes. It would probably take longer to find the bad component, but I > am darn sure I could find or make a replacement any time in the future. What about the scads of VAX-11/750 cardsets floating about from all of the deceased VAXen? William Donzelli william@ans.net From jason at xio.com Wed Nov 4 16:23:21 1998 From: jason at xio.com (Jason Simpson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Mac emulators? References: <3.0.1.32.19981104164350.00994e70@mail.30below.com> <3.0.5.32.19981104160343.00f01100@pc> Message-ID: <3640D3D9.61ECA086@xio.com> John Foust wrote: > > No, *you're* thinking of Gemulator. He's thinking of "Magic Sac." > > I had one for the Amiga, but I can't think of the name of it now. :-) Ummm.. A-Max, Emplant, Shapeshifter, Fusion.. I think there may be/have been a couple more. -jrs -- _____________________________________________________________________ Jason Simpson | Evolution of a geek: TI99/4A>C64>C128>A500>A2000>... jason@xio.com | ...A3000/25>486SLC2>BL486/75>6x86/166>K6/300>C128DCR! From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Nov 4 16:39:40 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Mac emulators? In-Reply-To: <3640D3D9.61ECA086@xio.com> from "Jason Simpson" at Nov 4, 98 02:23:21 pm Message-ID: <199811042239.OAA31070@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981104/f707ed7c/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Wed Nov 4 16:47:12 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Tandy MC5000 (was: Re: Classic != IBM AT) References: <802566B2.00577F9D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> <199811041940.OAA08263@smtp.interlog.com> <3.0.1.32.19981104163740.009ee2f0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3640D970.670F1C95@cnct.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Oh, the collectibility of MCA machines was brought up once before in this > thread, and (to me, anyway) the Tandy MC5000 seems rather collectible, as > one of the very few non-IBM MCA architecture machines ever sold. (I > acutally saw one, once upon a time... they weren't too popular, tho.) > > Was this the first MCA "clone"? > > I'm pretty sure the MC5000 came out in '88, so it's ontrack topically. Don't recall the precise release date, but they were definitely out when I attended the Tangent (Tandy Professional Users Group) conference in Fort Worth in 1987. Not exactly a "clone". The MCA architecture was fully licensed and paid for by Tandy to IBM. The 5000MC actually had a better MCA implementation than the IBM systems at that point, as Tandy didn't cripple the bus-mastering feature the way IBM did. Naturally the machine died like a pig, leaving less of a ripple as it sank than the Tandy 2000 or even the Tandy 600 portable had. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Nov 4 17:04:41 1998 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Tandy MC5000 (was: Re: Classic != IBM AT) In-Reply-To: <3640D970.670F1C95@cnct.com> References: <802566B2.00577F9D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> <199811041940.OAA08263@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981104180441.00966c20@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Ward Donald Griffiths III had spoken clearly: >Roger Merchberger wrote: >> Was this the first MCA "clone"? >> >> I'm pretty sure the MC5000 came out in '88, so it's ontrack topically. >Don't recall the precise release date, but they were definitely out >when I attended the Tangent (Tandy Professional Users Group) >conference in Fort Worth in 1987. I checked my '87 computer catalog (it's here at work) and it wasn't in there. My '88 is at home, so it's prolly in there. >Not exactly a "clone". The MCA architecture was fully licensed and >paid for by Tandy to IBM. Yes... and ISTR that IBM wanted a small fortune for that license as well. Prolly one of the reasons it never caught on; very little profit to be made as people weren't willing to shell out the big bucks for a system, and all new cards as well (MCA stuff commanded quite a premium back then). > The 5000MC actually had a better MCA >implementation than the IBM systems at that point, as Tandy didn't >cripple the bus-mastering feature the way IBM did. That I didn't know, as my main (work) machine was a CoCo3 until I needed Autocad capability and my (then) employer loaned me a 486DX2/66 (which ran the CoCo2 emulator pretty well...) The CoCo3 is still set up next to "Goon" which is a Pentium II 350 (dual capable) w/256Meg ram... and no, I've been too busy to try the CoCo 3 emulator on it... but in a couple weeks I should have time. I wrote a (very, very) basic benchmark proggie in assembly... my Cyrix 150+ was roughly an 8Mhz CoCo3. I'll let you know what my Pentium II runs like... if my proggie doesn't need to be recoded. > Naturally the >machine died like a pig, leaving less of a ripple as it sank than >the Tandy 2000 or even the Tandy 600 portable had. Too bad... the machine had potential. I remember seeing "MC5000" thinking "yea, that's prolly the price..." Lo and behold: $4999! ( I think that was it's initial roll-out price) Anywho, enough rambling, & back to work. Roger "Merch" Merchberger From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 4 12:42:51 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: PDP11 training troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <199811040317.AA18924@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Nov 3, 98 10:17:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1647 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981104/697447c3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 4 13:43:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Acorn BBC Micros In-Reply-To: <199811040523.VAA08839@saul2.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Nov 3, 98 09:23:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 6157 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981104/77ebdf09/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 4 13:48:44 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Acorn BBC Micros In-Reply-To: <9811040843.ZM4755@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 4, 98 08:43:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1439 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981104/4b4211eb/attachment.ksh From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Nov 4 17:11:29 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Classic != IBM AT Message-ID: <199811042323.SAA04226@gate.usaor.net> The 30-286 did exist. I just sold one, and have one torn apart in my basement. I *think* that they were the last ISA PS/2's. Not too sure about that, though. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ > > One of you thinks the 8530 (PS/2 model 30) was an 8088, the other thinks it > was an 80286. I claim you're both wrong. The model 30 was IBM's first > (and to my knowledge only) machine to be based on the 8086. > > > If I am wrong, and a 286 version did exist, no doubt flames will appear in > great numbers. > > > > Philip. > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 4 14:24:04 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: KIM-1 (Was: Apple I clone (was Re: Apple I Computer For In-Reply-To: <199811041722.SAA29316@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Nov 4, 98 06:43:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 736 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981104/3ac66b65/attachment.ksh From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Nov 4 17:19:48 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 (was:Tandy MC5000) Message-ID: <199811042323.SAA04272@gate.usaor.net> > Naturally the > machine died like a pig, leaving less of a ripple as it sank than > the Tandy 2000 or even the Tandy 600 portable had. > Just how many of the 600's were made/possibly are still in working order? Just how rare are they, and how much would one be worth? I had people trying to sell me non-working ones for $50 and over (I didn't buy them because I have a working one). Also on the topic of the 600, Does anyone have a modem cable and a printer cable for one (or a BASIC chip)? One last question... Is there any way to run non-ROM programs on the 600? ThAnX, -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill@usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ From mark_k at iname.com Wed Nov 4 17:26:03 1998 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Looking for Sony V7021 IC data sheet and Amiga UNIX questio Message-ID: On 4 Nov 1998 Eric Smith wrote: >> Does anyone have a data sheet for the Sony V7021 IC? This is a video decoder > >That's not a Sony part number. Sony used > CX >on older stuff, and > CX >on newer stuff, where letter is M for memory, P for processor, A for analog, >D for other digital, etc. > >What other numbers are on the part? Does it actually bear a Sony logo? It absolutely is a Sony part. 28 pin package, pins are on a finer pitch than "normal" DIL ICs, maybe 0.4 wide. On the chip is printed: SONY [the Sony logo] V7021 (C) Asuki [Asuki is in Japanese katakana, not romaji] 142B95K On a related subject, can anyone recommend a cheap IC which I can use for buffering RGB signals, to driving 75ohm-terminated outputs? -- Mark From mark_k at iname.com Wed Nov 4 17:27:52 1998 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Acorn BBC Micros Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 1998 D. Peschel wrote> >NTSC -- smooth and flaky PAL -- flickery but more reliable > (still prone to interference, but fewer > color-related symptoms, based on my watching > Wimbledon from an old flat near Knightsbridge) For TV programmes, the flicker isn't really noticeable (though maybe it is if you're used to 60Hz NTSC pictures). The higher PAL vertical resolution and no 3:2 pulldown is better suited to films than NTSC. No hue problems on PAL either (no hue control at all). >VHF frequency bands: VHF frequency bands: >channels 2-13 ? >(1 was scrapped in short order) I think VHF has long been out of use for TV in the UK. The old VHF transmitters were turned off in 1979 (or thereabouts). >UHF frequency bands: UHF frequency bands: >channels 14-99? ? >(not sure -- little-used, many >conflicting terms and marketing) Don't know what channel numbers are used, though probably much the same as in the USA -- I managed to get a picture using my old US portable TV the other day (albeit in monochrome with no sound and slightly stretched picture). >Now, more sensible input scheme SCART which seems excellent AFAIK >on modern sets SCART is super for things like computers and game consoles, since it allows RGB input, something that apparently almost no US TVs do. >To keep this on the topic of the thread, I *am* interested in getting a BBC. >I guess I'd need a PAL monitor and a 220-volt, 50-hz power supply to run it >though. Does anyone have any ideas? Use a step-up transformer (110 to 220-240V), frequency probably irrelevant, though I'm no BBC expert. You should be able to find these in many places like Tandy/Radio Shack. You could hook the composite output up to a video monitor or TV. You might have to adjust the vertical hold and vertical size to get a decent picture. And this would be monochrome. Connect the TTL RGB o/p to a suitable monitor for colour. As long as the monitor has a v.hold control you should be able to get a stable picture. -- Mark From pjoules at joules.enterprise-plc.com Wed Nov 4 17:27:44 1998 From: pjoules at joules.enterprise-plc.com (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Almost on topic VMS 5.2 help please In-Reply-To: <003201be07aa$c57b9d00$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: Thanks to all who answered this question. I used Allison's enhanced version of the procedure in the docs and it worked. There must be some differences between systems as the procedure which didn't work with this 3100 worked perfectly well with my MVII. It is up and running now, and once again the response received is a testament to the wealth of knowledge on this list. Thanks Pete From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Nov 4 17:52:10 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Spring Cleaning - Revisited In-Reply-To: <199811041514.KAA11757@charity.harvard.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Dellett, Anthony wrote: > Okay, to avoid confusion, I'm going ahead and adding prices to these. Some > prices are negotiable, most are firm. > > $30 each, they work and include cables > Atari 1050 Disk Drive (two of them) WAY too much. $10 each max. > $30 each > Commodore 64 (complete in box, I have two like this) Complete with foam, all original accessories, cables, pamphlets and manuals, with an immaculate box? For $30, I hope so. > $30 for the working grey one, the broken one is a white one and I'll sell > for $10 > Commodore 1541 Disk Drive (2 in box, one works, one doesn't) $10 each max. > $100, it's in beautiful shape. > Compupro S-100 Enclosure (motherboard and PS only, no cards) $100 for a bunch of metal and a passive backplane? $25 at the most is more like it. > $200. Works perfectly, comes with Graphic CP/M 2.2 > NorthStar Advantage (works completely, with boot disk) Too much. > $30 > TI-99/4A Computer (beige model, in box) $5 > $60 > TRS-80 Model III (with some software) $20 > $150, it's a really nice subsystem. > 8" SS/SD Dual Drive Subsystem (ICOM) Oof. Too much. > $20 > CoCo 2 - Works peachy $5. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From dburrows at netpath.net Wed Nov 4 17:42:39 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Do You Have a PDP-11/03L? Message-ID: <01a201be084d$e1fcaed0$a60b0b0b@p166> >I have an 11/03L carcass and am hoping to use the backplane for a set of >11/73 boards I've acquired for a friend. I would be very cautious installing the 11/73 boards into an 11/03 backplane. I have numerous BA23 chassis here if you need one but I would look locally for a MV2 or 3 to save shipping costs. I usually pick up MV2's for $5 to $50 depending on what is in them. Also look for the BA123's. They were only sold for MV's but they make good PDP11 test beds. I have a couple here just for testing PDP11 parts. Dan Burrows From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Nov 4 18:29:56 1998 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 (was:Tandy MC5000) In-Reply-To: <199811042323.SAA04272@gate.usaor.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981104192956.00926810@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Jason Willgruber had spoken clearly: >Just how many of the 600's were made/possibly are still in working order? >Just how rare are they, and how much would one be worth? I had people >trying to sell me non-working ones for $50 and over (I didn't buy them >because I have a working one). # built: I've heard rumors ranging from 20,000 to 75,000 machines built... where they ended up, who knows. Is this right??? You know what they say about rumors... ;-) >Also on the topic of the 600, Does anyone have a modem cable and a printer >cable for one (or a BASIC chip)? The printer cable is one of the only things that the 600 has in common with it's predecessors (the 100/102/200)... it's a 26-pin IDC header running thru 26-conductor ribbon cable running to a 36-pin Centronics (or whateveryacallem) end. You can still get 'em at Radio smack ;-, I think... prolly have to special-order 'em, tho. Otherwise, contact my good friend Rick Hanson - he runs Club 100 and I'm pretty sure that he has some in stock. (That's where I got my 600 from... reminds me, I gotta plug it in tonite). (shameless plug: Rick makes his *living* at keeping the Model T's alive, so please support him... he's a really cool dude!) His e-mail is thedock@value.net, and tell him "Merch" sent ya. Otherwise, browse to: http://www.the-dock.com/club100.html (checking... Yupper, got it right.) >One last question... >Is there any way to run non-ROM programs on the 600? Uh, whaddya mean? Provided you have more than 32K in your 600 (which I recommend - 128K is really necessary (in my experience) to make the machine usable) you can dump Basic to RAM and run it there, if you don't mind 32K of ram getting swallowed. Other proggies may be possible, but I've not run anything other than Basic in this manner. Notes: Larry Kollar (address unknown - search the web for his name) is/was very active with the Tandy 600 - I contacted him when I got mine. Active in a day or so, you will find a Tandy600 ftp site at: ftp.30below.com/Tandy600 Check there for a day or to... if it's not up by friday, send me a (hopefully friendly) reminder. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From bwit at ticnet.com Wed Nov 4 18:20:49 1998 From: bwit at ticnet.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 (was:Tandy MC5000) Message-ID: <01BE0820.0A770320.bwit@ticnet.com> On Wednesday, November 04, 1998 5:20 PM, Jason Willgruber [SMTP:roblwill@usaor.net] wrote: > > Naturally the > > machine died like a pig, leaving less of a ripple as it sank than > > the Tandy 2000 or even the Tandy 600 portable had. > > > Just how many of the 600's were made/possibly are still in working order? > Just how rare are they, and how much would one be worth? I had people > trying to sell me non-working ones for $50 and over (I didn't buy them > because I have a working one). No idea but you sure don't run into them very often. > > Also on the topic of the 600, Does anyone have a modem cable and a printer > cable for one (or a BASIC chip)? I have all of the above but I wouldn't be interested in parting with any of it. > > One last question... > Is there any way to run non-ROM programs on the 600? You could run programs from diskette. The machine has an 8086 chip in it I believe and I think there was an assembler available for it but I've never seen one. I just pulled mine from storage over the weekend and discovered that I had left the memory switch on several years ago when I put it up. Now it won't boot even under AC. I guess I need to replace the backup battery - anyone have any info on this? > > ThAnX, > > -Jason > > *********************************************** > * Jason Willgruber * > * (roblwill@usaor.net) * > * * > * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * > * ICQ#-1730318 * > * /0\/0\ * > * > Long Live the 5170! * > * \___/ * > ************************************************ From heavy at ctesc.net Wed Nov 4 15:22:33 1998 From: heavy at ctesc.net (Jim Weiler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: DayStar adapter for IIsi In-Reply-To: <199811041947.OAA00589@hiway1.exit109.com> Message-ID: I'm not familiar with the IIsi board, but it is probably a PDS and a NUBUS. The adapter you refer to could be the L-shaped PDS to PDS, or the L-shaped PDS to NUBUS adapter. Useful when you have a 'puter that won't accept a card straight in (like my Quadra 610, but I have it populated with a PDS to PDS, and an Apple 601 Upgrade Card, running OS 8.1). I happen to have a DayStar 64K RAM Cache card for the IIsi, new and unopened in its original box (some wear one the box), with software & instructions, that I was fixing to post on eBay. If you are interested in it, make me an offer. >A while back I picked up a Mac IIsi which included the adapter for a DayStar >accelerator (but no accel.). Given that, I hace a few questions: > >1) I notice that there are two ports on the board. One is obviously for > the accelerator. What is the other one? A IIsi PDS? > >2) Since I don't have a DayStar card, what else (if anything) can I > do with the adapter? Can I plug in a IIci cache card? > >3) Anybody want to swap it for a Nubus adapter? :-) > >Thanks in advance... ><<>> "I wish I was deep, instead of just macho." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ mailto:YaCCCht@hosts.talkcity.com Jim Weiler mailto:native-sun@usa.net http://home.talkcity.com/HardDiskDr/YaCCCht/index.html ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Nov 4 18:50:58 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Acorn BBC Micros In-Reply-To: Mark "Re: Acorn BBC Micros" (Nov 4, 23:27) References: Message-ID: <9811050050.ZM5498@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 4, 23:27, Mark wrote: > Subject: Re: Acorn BBC Micros > SCART is super for things like computers and game consoles, since it allows RGB > input, something that apparently almost no US TVs do. And it has IN and OUT for most signals, so you can do loopback and daisy-chaining. > >To keep this on the topic of the thread, I *am* interested in getting a BBC. > >I guess I'd need a PAL monitor and a 220-volt, 50-hz power supply to run it > >though. Does anyone have any ideas? > > Use a step-up transformer (110 to 220-240V), frequency probably irrelevant, > though I'm no BBC expert. As Tony has pointed out, it's very easy to convert -- all the Astec and BSR SMPSUs that were used have a link you can make for 110V operation. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Nov 4 18:54:40 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:07 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 (was:Tandy MC5000) Message-ID: <199811050056.TAA24761@gate.usaor.net> > > I just pulled mine from storage over the weekend and discovered that I had > left the memory switch on several years ago when I put it up. Now it won't > boot even under AC. I guess I need to replace the backup battery - anyone > have any info on this? > You shouldn't need a new battery - I think it was NiCd. You'll have to do a cold start. Make sure the memory switch is on, then hold down ,