From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri May 1 03:39:05 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <9804018940.AA894037313@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> Heck, I'd like to see a good computer taxonomy (you know, kingdom=digital, >> phylum=silicon, class=portable, order=laptop, family=grid, >> genus=1500-series, species=1535-EXP). > > On the grounds that all laptops are portables, I think I'd rather see > something like > > kingdom = {analogue, digital, quantum} > Phylum = {silicon, GaAs, Germanium (?), hollow-state, mechanical} > Class = {Mainframe, Mini, Workstation, Micro} > Order = {Rackmount, deskside, desktop, luggable, laptop, notebook, palmtop} > > (I know of at least one luggable mini, and I think a Sparcbook could > reasonably be called a laptop workstation) Ummm. Given the number of hybrids around (as we have seen from more recent posts), your system might be better. But AFAIK in the taxonomy used by biologists etc. the list of available classes is different for each phylum, the list of available orders different for each class, etc. But I have a computer that is hybrid analogue/digital (an EAI-1000, I think it's called, which is an analogue computer with a microprocessor doing an embedded control type job to run the system)... Philip. PS Luggable Mini = P850? From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 1 03:27:12 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:37 2005 Subject: Televideo TS802 in Silicon Valley In-Reply-To: <9804018940.AA894037313@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: I got a call from somebody trying to get rid of a TS802. I haven't returned the call yet, but I assume it's free. Anybody close to Santa Clara, CA interested? Let me know. (I gather this is a CP/M box with hard disk. AFAIK, it's a complete system that was snarfed by a Televideo employee when the place shut its doors). -- Doug From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Fri May 1 05:46:53 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:38 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... (More Info) Message-ID: Hmm, must be too early... I suddenly remembered a situation like this I had with a motherboard a few years back... check the ISA slots; make sure nobody's stuck a card in there and mangled a few of the pins. This board I was given had the same trouble, and a couple of the pins were shorting out and the system was shutting it down. Nice three-second fix once I'd found the problem!! :) good luck, Jules > From cfandt at servtech.com Fri May 1 07:32:13 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Artistic Computers (was: Re: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1)) In-Reply-To: References: <199804302115.RAA24412@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-ID: <199805011237.IAA05336@cyber2.servtech.com> Okay, first, where do we stop with the 'was:' things as an interesting thread evolves!? There may be a limit to number of nested parentheses in a subject line! ;-) At 16:52 30-04-98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote: >On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Christian Fandt wrote: > >> Thankfully, the metal/plastic boxes our old computers were made with have >> virtually no value as 'interior decorations' (yet). However, there could be >> exceptions for maybe a couple of models. I recall some list members here >> had commented upon some as being rather attractive in appearance. I haven't >> come across those yet. > >Hmm, a list of computers that look good enough to display as art? Here's >mine (most are laptops): > >IMSAI 8080 >GRiD Compass >Ampere WS1 >MINDSET PC (good enough for MOMA, anyway) >NeXT Cube >eMate 300 > >-- Doug Anybody know of a URL or printed reference to a photo of an Ampere, MINDSET or eMate machine? Heard of them and I would like to see what they're like. I have somewhere in my archives old Popular Electronics and Byte mags which I'm sure show the others on Doug's list. Those NeXT machines were indeed pleasing to look at. I wish I could find one nearby here to see up close or/and purchase. --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From Marty at itgonline.com Fri May 1 07:44:40 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) Message-ID: <1998May01.084354.1767.100094@smtp.itgonline.com> Funny you should mention the Macquarium. Yesterday on my way home I stopped at a used computer store and found a Mac Plus Macquarium with the original documentation dated 1992 (a mere $60.00 for a butchered Mac... I wouldn't buy one because I don't think it's cute and don't want to encourage this practice). The top of the case had been quite roughly gouged out, a glass tank fitted inside the case. I'd seen this on the web before but thought it was a joke..... Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 4/30/98 6:45 PM On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > Thankfully, the metal/plastic boxes our old computers were made with have > > virtually no value as 'interior decorations' (yet). However, there could be > > exceptions for maybe a couple of models. I recall some list members here > > had commented upon some as being rather attractive in appearance. I haven't > > come across those yet. > > Hmm, a list of computers that look good enough to display as art? Here's > mine (most are laptops): > > IMSAI 8080 > GRiD Compass > Ampere WS1 > MINDSET PC (good enough for MOMA, anyway) > NeXT Cube > eMate 300 Of course you guys have heard of converting a Mac into a fish tnak? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/25/98] ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Apr30.184519.1767.39626; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:45:19 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id PAA27000; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:38:26 -0700 Received: from mxu3.u.washington.edu (mxu3.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.7]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id PAA81022 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:38:21 -0700 Received: from shell.wco.com (shell.wco.com [199.4.94.16]) by mxu3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP id PAA26284 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:38:05 -0700 Received: from shell (dastar@shell [199.4.94.16]) by shell.wco.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/WCO-18jul97) with SMTP id PAA00153 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Sam Ismail To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers X-Sender: dastar@shell X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From cfandt at servtech.com Fri May 1 08:26:56 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Computer Taxonomy In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8B0@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: <199805011332.JAA06283@cyber2.servtech.com> At 16:36 30-04-98 -0700, Jack Peacock wrote: >> It would be tough (but valuable) to provide a truly comprehensive >list. > >kingdom = {analogue, digital, quantum} >Phylum = {silicon, GaAs, Germanium (?), hollow-state, mechanical} >Class = {Mainframe, Mini, Workstation, Micro} >Order = {Rackmount, deskside, desktop, luggable, laptop, notebook, >palmtop} > >You are leaving out whole categories of computers. Where do VCR and >microwave oven controllers fit in? How do you fit in user programmable >and non-user programmable? What about digital storage scopes, logic >analyzers? What about lawn sprinkler timers, aren't they >"programmable"? > Jack Peacock > A taxonomy? Hmmm, that would be an interesting reference for future generations. As to that whole category of computers being left out, it could be approaching the splitting of hairs to detail all examples of "programmable" electronic devices. However, some of the very simple controllers in, e.g., lawn sprinkler timers, etc. could possibly be classified as just programmable logic elements -not really "computers". I can imagine a simple Epson or whatever clock chip and a small programmable array logic (PAL) chip of some low cost type being setup with very simple I/O to act as the "programmable" control in those types of equipment. Or, rather, an application specific integrated circuit or ASIC could be specially designed and fabricated to replace all of this if production quantities are in the many thousands. Still, no microprocessor chip though. As to the line above: >Class = {Mainframe, Mini, Workstation, Micro}, a few should be added such as Industrial Computers which have much human interface usually called "Man-Machine Interface or 'MMI' (types: VMEbus, STDbus, STD32, Multibus, G64, etc.), Programmable Logic Controllers (PLC) which are used to run large machines and production lines and often have fixed programs with limited or unlimited MMI (brands: Siemens, Allen-Bradley, Giddings and Lewis, etc.) and Embedded Computers which have little, if any, MMI (like found in automotive emission and engine control systems, home/corporate security systems, vending machines, televisions, CD players and other entertainment electronics, industrial machine controls (not PLCs), etc., etc. We are literally surrounded by this "programmable" stuff and it is growing. --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Fri May 1 04:53:46 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Introduction References: Message-ID: <35499B96.2C10@digiweb.com> Rax wrote: > Actually, it's way too much info for the list I've been compiling - I'm > only trying to list the major computers that should be familiar to any > self-respecting geek. Hans' list goes into the stratosphere of geekdom. Hmm, don't know how to take that, I think it's a compliment in current company ;-) > As soon as I get time, I'll throw my list up on my Web site so y'all can > take a look anyway. I'll let you know when it's up. If you send me a copy in the next couple of days I will add any I don't already have to the CCC list. I hope to do an update this week-end. [It's long overdue]. Regards, Hans B Pufal From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Fri May 1 05:00:00 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Computer Taxonomy References: Message-ID: <35499D20.614F@digiweb.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > Heck, I'd like to see a good computer taxonomy (you know, kingdom=digital, > phylum=silicon, class=portable, order=laptop, family=grid, > genus=1500-series, species=1535-EXP). This is something I have been struggling with for some time. It is a necessary extension to the CCC. I would be interested in a group project to try and come up with a reasonable taxonomy. Hans B Pufal From cfandt at servtech.com Fri May 1 09:11:32 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... (More Info) In-Reply-To: <001901bd74b2$76d7d960$446fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <199805011417.KAA06941@cyber2.servtech.com> At 06:36 01-05-98 +0300, "Hotze" wrote: >OK... by some act of God, when I try to plug in the HDD alone, it spins up, >along with the PSU. Now, when I take EVERYTHING out, that includes drives, >cards, etc. and just give the motherboard power, it doesn't spin up at all. Aha! Tim, I think I recall you mentioning that you had swapped the motherboard. If you haven't done it already, check underneath the M'board to see if one or more of the metal threaded standoffs is touching a trace on the board. (I deleted previous messages in this thread so don't recall if you did this already.) Actually, check if _any_ metal thing is touching the board in places which it shouldn't. If that trace is a supply line, then the PSU will shut itself down because of a short circuit. If it is indeed shorting a supply line to earth then find some sort of insulating material and affix it to that location(s) on the board. Use a piece of very heavy paper or plastic sheet at least, say, 0.60" (1.50mm) or so thick. I speak from personal experience on this one. Also, look on top of the board and see if there's a metal chip, tiny screw or whatever lodged between IC pin leads, resistor leads, connector leads, etc. I have seen this before also, less likely possible in your case, but give it a good visual in bright light anyway. >Yes, the black pins are in the middle, I know I've got a good connection... >could this be the "No power" line thingy? Should a real-XT case work with a >clone-XT motherboard? Usually, but as I've mentioned above with my experience, a few clone boards lacked a mounting hole or two and underboard traces interfere with existing mounting standoffs. Kinda dumb as the clone board manufacturer _should_ have stuck by the de facto mechanical standards but sometimes they made "shortcuts". Good luck --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri May 1 09:15:56 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Anyone know where to find a Setup disk for Epson Equity II+? Message-ID: <13352198313.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> One of ours lost it's CMOS. ------- From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 1 11:24:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Computer Taxonomy Message-ID: <199805011624.AA28748@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 May 1998, Christian Fandt wrote: > Anybody know of a URL or printed reference to a photo of an Ampere, MINDSET > or eMate machine? Heard of them and I would like to see what they're like. > I have somewhere in my archives old Popular Electronics and Byte mags which > I'm sure show the others on Doug's list. Those NeXT machines were indeed > pleasing to look at. I wish I could find one nearby here to see up close > or/and purchase. First, a clarification. When I said "here's mine", "mine" refers to the list, and not the computers on the list. Unfortunately, I only own about half of the machines on the list, and I'm still looking for the other half. Anyway, URLs: Ampere WS1: http://www.insset.u-picardie.fr/museum/english/pages_museum/ampere.htm MINDSET: http://www.trailingedge.com/~dlw/comp/template.html?mindsetpc eMate: http://www.newtoninc.com/product_info/devices/emate300/emate300.html -- Doug From donm at cts.com Fri May 1 15:39:52 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Anyone know where to find a Setup disk for Epson Equity II+? In-Reply-To: <13352198313.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 May 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > One of ours lost it's CMOS. > ------- Look on ftp.epson.com/desktop/ - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From lfb107 at psu.edu Fri May 1 16:01:36 1998 From: lfb107 at psu.edu (Les Berry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Anyone know where to find a Setup disk for Epson Equity II+? Message-ID: <199805012102.RAA21984@r02n02.cac.psu.edu> At 07:15 AM 5/1/98 -0700, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >One of ours lost it's CMOS. >------- Here's a zip of one. At one time it was available off of the Epson web page but I'm not sure if it still is. Anyway, it works for both II+ and III model Epsons. Enjoy! Les -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SET2P3.EXE Type: application/octet-stream Size: 27264 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980501/a5f2f18b/SET2P3.obj From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri May 1 16:19:41 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: This sucks. Message-ID: <13352275456.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Well, the KS-10 deal went over like a lead baloon... It seems the HARDWARE to the system has already been packed off to Caterpillar Spares. But the SYSTEM (disk) is still there. THAT is what they were melting down. Not the whole rack, just the RP06 packs that had their data. When I was told the SYSTEM was intact and may be rescueable, we assumed the HARDWARE. When I asked about config, he assumed I meant "What's the monitor built for?" And they don't wanna give me those disks anyway. Basically, I went in and made a fool of myself... Oh well. Live and learn... ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 1 15:07:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <9804018940.AA894037313@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at May 1, 98 08:39:05 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1054 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980501/46fa23af/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri May 1 16:56:58 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13352282243.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [luggable mini] I can carry my PDP-11... I don't LIKE to, but I CAN... Or didn't it have to have a handle to count? ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 1 12:33:41 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... (More Info) In-Reply-To: <001901bd74b2$76d7d960$446fbcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at May 1, 98 06:36:35 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1159 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980501/9420869c/attachment.ksh From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri May 1 17:10:47 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: This sucks. In-Reply-To: <13352275456.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980501151047.007b3980@mail.sfu.ca> At 02:19 PM 01/05/98 -0700, you wrote: >And they don't wanna give me those disks anyway. Basically, I went in and made >a fool of myself... Oh well. Live and learn... You never make a fool of yourself for asking questions and offering to help. If they make you feel like you're one then that's _their_ problem! Anyone's effort at trying to save and preserve old systems (or any item of historical interest) should be appreciated, even by those disposing of the equipment. Kevin From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri May 1 18:13:31 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Suicidal HDD (OT mystery) Message-ID: <19980501231331.19866.qmail@hotmail.com> This room is about the size of a porta-potty. What would be a safe distance? Is there a way to block their effects, using metal, for example? Can I fix the broken drives? >> The speakers MIGHT be the problem. There is a pair of them, each >> twice the size of an IMSAI, right beneath the macintosh > >I see... Now, while a lot of older drives locked the pack to the spindle >using a fairly powerful magnet (and 3.5" floppy drives still do), I'd >still not want to run a hard disk near speakers of that size. Can you >rearange the layout of the room a little? > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri May 1 18:17:36 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Suicidal HDD (OT mystery) Message-ID: <19980501231736.9916.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, the speakers are probably 6". We are playing instrumental music, nothing too heavy. Both drives were Micropolis, IDE-based, like most newer Macs. Nothing much bangs on the table, except the speaker vibrations. Could it be the Yamaha keyboard or amplifier (just regular black box) >> > >> > >> > >> > The speakers MIGHT be the problem. There is a pair of them, each >> > twice the size of an IMSAI, right beneath the macintosh >> >> I see... Now, while a lot of older drives locked the pack to the spindle >> using a fairly powerful magnet (and 3.5" floppy drives still do), I'd >> still not want to run a hard disk near speakers of that size. Can you >> rearange the layout of the room a little? >> >> -tony >> >Guys! I know of several deaf and impaired hearing people who likes >music at full blast thru regular quality 60W with subwoofer and their >hard drives cared nothing a whit about vibration level. I think >something is funny: (Thobbing of music...boom boom bop...) > >1. Did someone disconnect/connect scsi stuff often? >2. Did something bang the table where Mac sits often? >3. Specific brands is no better than some and why didn't Max give us >what kind of both toasted hds was? >4. Termination issues sometimes cooks the hd especially selection of >termination power used. >5. Sharp resonanent sounds sometimes can make the pc chassis >resosate thus killing hd life early. That does means to some >machines with plastic chassis and some that will resnsonate, shaking >the hd long and often. Push and pull on that hard drive bay to see >how much it can shift or "pluck" it to see if it does vibrate. > >Magnetic field have nearly no effect on hd's inside that steel boxes >unless Apple used plastic shell with thin tin sheets which that >requires you to remove either speakers or the pc to different >location at least 6" to 3 feet away. >Magnetic field strength falls away at logithmic rate with increaseing >distrance from the source. > >Jaosn D. > >> > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri May 1 18:18:53 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) Message-ID: <19980501231853.6851.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, Lisas are essentially the same case... > > > >If it has to be a computer bow about a VT180 (CP/M) or PDT-11/130? > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 1 18:56:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Suicidal HDD (OT mystery) In-Reply-To: <19980501231331.19866.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at May 1, 98 04:13:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1072 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980502/981e818d/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri May 1 19:36:29 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Suicidal HDD (OT mystery) Message-ID: <19980502003629.3929.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, I guess I got my answer, so, if I may inquire, why is it that older hard drives did not need a clean room? Were they sufficiently rought that you could just pull them apart? >> distance? Is there a way to block their effects, using metal, for > >Well, mu-metal would be a reasonable screen, but it's not cheap and can't >be bent to shape after annealing. A larger room might well be cheaper! > >> example? Can I fix the broken drives? > >If it's magnetic damage to the servo information, then it's almost >impossible to repair. You'd need a clean room and the rig used to write >the information at the factory. I don't think many hobbyists have that >sort of setup. > >The other suggestion was mechanical damage from vibration. This might be >more likely, actually. Repairing that (which would be similar to a minor >headcrash) is going to be impossible as well. > >In general even _I_ class modern hard drives as being impossible to >repair. I'll do electronic repairs on the older winchesters (but modern >drives are all custom chips, so that's impossible now), and I'll repair >demountables with no problems at all. But I don't have a clean room to >dismantle the HDA (yet!) > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 1 19:53:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Suicidal HDD (OT mystery) In-Reply-To: <19980502003629.3929.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at May 1, 98 05:36:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2245 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980502/85ba9328/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Fri May 1 20:41:48 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Artistic Computers (was: Re: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1)) In-Reply-To: <199805011237.IAA05336@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-ID: > >Hmm, a list of computers that look good enough to display as art? Here's > >mine (most are laptops): > > > >IMSAI 8080 > >GRiD Compass > >Ampere WS1 > >MINDSET PC (good enough for MOMA, anyway) > >NeXT Cube > >eMate 300 The big iron, well, tends to be just a bit too big for art, but the cube-shaped Connection Machines surely belong on the list. Crays, especially the newer ones, are quite pleasing to look at. Computervision racks had strips of finished hardwood running down the front panel, just for looks. Too bad the rest of the machine was rather yucky. Speaking of which, what are the ugliest machines? William Donzelli william@ans.net From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 1 20:52:47 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Artistic Computers (was: Re: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 May 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > Speaking of which, what are the ugliest machines? Kaypros. I've heard that George Morrow referred to them as "Darth Vadar Lunch Boxes". -- Doug From rax at warbaby.com Fri May 1 22:32:08 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <35499B96.2C10@digiweb.com> References: Message-ID: >Rax wrote: >> Actually, it's way too much info for the list I've been compiling - I'm >> only trying to list the major computers that should be familiar to any >> self-respecting geek. Hans' list goes into the stratosphere of geekdom. > >Hmm, don't know how to take that, I think it's a compliment in current >company ;-) > Definitely a compliment! Your list is a priceless contribution to the documentation of computer history. R. -- Robert Arnold Managing Editor The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Creator and Eminence Grise Warbaby: The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. muahahahahaaaaa http://www.warbaby.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri May 1 21:58:20 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: kaypro<->IBM? Message-ID: ive been in communication with a lady that has an old kaypro with a lot of text files on disk she wants to transfer to an IBM for further editing and safekeeping. i presume i need to cable their serial ports up and transfer that way, but exactly how? i need some sort of program to send the files on the kaypro i guess, but have nothing to do it with. if i can do this file transfer, i'll get two working kaypros, a TI word processor from 1985 and some NLQ dot matrix printer shipped to me free. david From bill_r at inetnebr.com Fri May 1 21:59:25 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: For you TI 99/4 collectors out there Message-ID: <35688b42.624314967@hoser> For you TI 99/4 collectors out there: >"Bill Frandsen" >I have the following package for auction on the eBay auction web site. It >ends in less than 24 hours. The current bid is $1.00, but it does have a >reserve price that has not been met. A picture is included at the following >link where you can also place your bid. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=11843202 > >Set of 3 Different TI 99/4A Computers >One each of the major shell + keyboard revisions > >Includes 3 shell types: 1 Cream colored and 2 Black + Silver colored. >1 black + silver unit has a "Solid State Software" emblem under the cart >slot. >The other black + silver unit has different keyboard lettering and help >bezel. >Also includes 3 slightly different styles of working power supplies. >Will include 4 NON-WORKING RF Video Modulators (may be fixable?). >Also includes keyboard help reference strips and some blank strips. >All units have been cleaned and tested and work fine, however, >you will need a working RF Video Modulator or video cable to use them. > > >Thanks for your interest! > -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 1 22:26:41 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <199805020326.AA12614@world.std.com> IBM? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 May 1998, SUPRDAVE wrote: > ive been in communication with a lady that has an old kaypro with a lot of > text files on disk she wants to transfer to an IBM for further editing and > safekeeping. i presume i need to cable their serial ports up and transfer that > way, but exactly how? i need some sort of program to send the files on the > kaypro i guess, but have nothing to do it with. if i can do this file > transfer, i'll get two working kaypros, a TI word processor from 1985 and some > NLQ dot matrix printer shipped to me free. Why not just read the flops directly from the PC? Sydex's 22Disk: http://www.sydex.com/other.html -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Fri May 1 23:40:34 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Artistic Computers (was: Re: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1)) References: Message-ID: <354AA3C2.D4DD9ED9@cnct.com> William Donzelli wrote: > Speaking of which, what are the ugliest machines? Zenith desktop PCs, the ones that were delivered for all of those federal contracts in the late 80s. Their laptops at that time were things of beauty, but the "regular" machines were butt-ugly. A case can be made for much of the AT&T 3B2 series as well, though that was a rare case where the bigger boxes looked better than the smaller unlike say Sun's. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From red at bears.org Fri May 1 23:56:05 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Artistic Computers (was: Re: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 May 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > Speaking of which, what are the ugliest machines? Apollo DOMAIN computers and every last intel based PC manufactured since 1993 and _especially_ since 1995. Except the new IBM GL machines which are actually kind of nice. ok r. From donm at cts.com Fri May 1 23:56:31 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Artistic Computers (was: Re: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 May 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Fri, 1 May 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Speaking of which, what are the ugliest machines? > > Kaypros. I've heard that George Morrow referred to them as "Darth Vadar > Lunch Boxes". > > -- Doug That was only applicable to the Robie which was all 'dressed in black'. It was a very different box from the usual Kaypro. - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From donm at cts.com Fri May 1 23:58:56 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: kaypro<->IBM? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 May 1998, SUPRDAVE wrote: > ive been in communication with a lady that has an old kaypro with a lot of > text files on disk she wants to transfer to an IBM for further editing and > safekeeping. i presume i need to cable their serial ports up and transfer that > way, but exactly how? i need some sort of program to send the files on the > kaypro i guess, but have nothing to do it with. if i can do this file > transfer, i'll get two working kaypros, a TI word processor from 1985 and some > NLQ dot matrix printer shipped to me free. > > david If the IBM has a 5.25" drive, you would be vastly better off using 22DISK. - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From red at bears.org Sat May 2 00:02:15 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Suicidal HDD (OT mystery) In-Reply-To: <19980501231736.9916.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 May 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Well, the speakers are probably 6". We are playing instrumental > music, nothing too heavy. Permanent magnets, though, are permanent magnets. My Klipschorns will distort a 35" TV noticeably at 18". > Both drives were Micropolis, IDE-based, ^^^^^^^^^^ Well, there's your problem, right there. (: Micropolis drives that are not 5.25" full height or larger are terrible. Not to mention Micropolis went out of business in November. The hardware can sense the warranty fields withering... ok r. From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat May 2 00:53:09 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Artistic Computers (was: Re: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1)) Message-ID: <002201bd758e$9895c580$136fbcc1@hotze> What about the Monorail PC's (http://www.monorail.com)? Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: R. Stricklin (kjaeros) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, May 02, 1998 7:58 AM Subject: Re: Artistic Computers (was: Re: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1)) >On Fri, 1 May 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Speaking of which, what are the ugliest machines? > >Apollo DOMAIN computers and every last intel based PC manufactured since >1993 and _especially_ since 1995. Except the new IBM GL machines which are >actually kind of nice. > >ok >r. > From dastar at wco.com Sat May 2 01:29:07 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Soviet Computer on the web Message-ID: I was going to post this when it was still relevant within the context of the thread but anyway.... Here's a web page with some pictures and information about a pretty fascinating Soviet mainframe: http://www.mailcom.com/besm6 Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/25/98] From dastar at wco.com Sat May 2 01:32:15 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Artistic Computers (was: Re: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 May 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Fri, 1 May 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Speaking of which, what are the ugliest machines? > > Kaypros. I've heard that George Morrow referred to them as "Darth Vadar > Lunch Boxes". I vote for the IBM PC. It made blandness an acceptable standard in exterior case design. Before the PC more machines than not were interesting to look at from the outside. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/25/98] From dastar at wco.com Sat May 2 01:35:40 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Artistic Computers (was: Re: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 2 May 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > On Fri, 1 May 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Speaking of which, what are the ugliest machines? > > Apollo DOMAIN computers and every last intel based PC manufactured since > 1993 and _especially_ since 1995. Except the new IBM GL machines which are > actually kind of nice. I'm actually keen on the contemporary Compaq designs and the cool Acer designs with the neon colors and artistically drilled venting holes in the dense pattern. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/25/98] From aaron at wfi-inc.com Sat May 2 02:56:41 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Artistic Computers (was: Re: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This doesn't just apply to the visual aspects of the computer, right? As far as the most artistically-funtional machines I've seen, the new HP Vectras are my favourites. A true tool-less design, everything is designed with ingenious slides and hooks and brackets. It also has some nice curves on the front panel, but is otherwise very plain looking. Granted, one of the fun things about working with classic systems is the nifty tools you tend to accumulate, but it's easy to appreciate the thought and inventiveness that has to go into making a machine that can be completely disassembled using nothing but a coin. Aaron From yowza at yowza.com Sat May 2 02:03:39 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Soviet Computer on the web In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > I was going to post this when it was still relevant within the context of > the thread but anyway.... > > Here's a web page with some pictures and information about a pretty > fascinating Soviet mainframe: > > http://www.mailcom.com/besm6 It is relevant, but to the "ugliest computer" thread. What are those things on the two desks in the foreground? I guess those must be tape drives in the fore-foreground, and maybe those back-forground monsters are the two printers mentioned in the text. -- Doug From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat May 2 02:43:52 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Artistic Computers (was: Re: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1)) Message-ID: <001201bd759e$1208efa0$ac67bcc1@hotze> >I'm actually keen on the contemporary Compaq designs and the cool Acer >designs with the neon colors and artistically drilled venting holes in the >dense pattern. Yep, those are cool. Also, I also kind of like the Toshiba's, the ones with those cool monitor/TV/speakers, and the box is awsome, too. And that new Toshiba model... the one in PC Week... the one that has that "30 second motherboard change", is finally a smart design, if not artistically pleasing. >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 04/25/98] -Tim D. Hotze From rhblake at bbtel.com Sat May 2 03:25:57 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Compaq laptop dock FS/Trade Message-ID: <354AD895.C15330AB@bbtel.com> Ok Compaq laptop owners (you know who you are). I have a near new unit to sell or trade as follows: Compaq 2815 Desktop Expansion Base. Looks a lot like the Prolinea line of desktops with a special lid to slide your laptop machine into a "bay". It has no drives (blanking plates) but has an internal contrller for floppy or hard disk and the empty bays. Has a token ring card now in one of the two ISA slots. Includes ports for VGA, LPT, COM, KB and mouse. Has an A/B switch on the rear that I really have no idea of it's use. This is like brand new but has no manuals. Looking for $100 cash or will consider trades of items such as memory, cdroms, sound cards (especially MCA PS/2 types), etc or a complete Snappy 3/3 Deluxe setup. I will also consider equal value electronics test equipment in trade especially function generators, signal generators, frequency counters, Fluke DMMs, etc. Email me direct please. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From yowza at yowza.com Sat May 2 03:55:42 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Compaq laptop dock FS/Trade In-Reply-To: <354AD895.C15330AB@bbtel.com> Message-ID: (no, I never sleep.) On Sat, 2 May 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Compaq 2815 Desktop Expansion Base. Looks a lot like the Prolinea > line of desktops with a special lid to slide [...] > Looking for $100 cash or will consider trades of items such as Alright, Russ, I'm a big fan of buying and selling classic stuff via this list, but this thing is not a classic and it's not a good deal. I walk away from these very common docks when offered for $20 around here, and I have an LTE that fits it! A quick search on the web will show that credit-card-taking, UPS-shipping, RMA-accepting surplus businesses on the net are charging around $45/$50 for this thing. I thought you charged the folks on this list a few bucks over your cost. Did you pay $95 for it? (and the only compaq I've ever liked was the concerto.) -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 2 05:51:03 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <199805020326.AA12614@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at May 1, 98 11:26:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1087 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980502/adc75b88/attachment.ksh From aaron at wfi-inc.com Sat May 2 14:43:21 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: Auction crap Message-ID: In case anyone cares, I put another Sun 3/50 and a Sparcstation 1+ on www.haggle.com. The 3/50 is a 12meg flat-top, and the 1+ has 36megs and a 205meg HD. I started them at something like $5 so they'll probably go for just enough to cover packaging tape. The impetus? The space is now being hogged by the System 36 I just dragged in here.... By the way, does anyone want that Sperry IT I got awhile back? It is sitting in the garage looking forlorn. It has that nifty Genoa video card, a memory board, an ethernet card, an unknown size HD, keyboard, optical mouse and pad, complete manual set (system installation guide, Basic user's guide, and MS-DOS user's guide), and original disk set. I haven't had the chance to even power it on yet, so I don't know the operational status (worked when removed). It's heavy (duh), so if someone just wanted the cards/HD/etc, I could disassemble and ship what you wanted and leave the carcass at the local thrift. Oh yeah, I am in the L.A. vicinity, so if someone wanted to pick it up.... Aaron From manney at lrbcg.com Sat May 2 15:53:01 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:39 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way Message-ID: <01bd760c$4b82f280$e528a2ce@laptop> I recently bought a Maxtor IDE along with other HDDs at a hamfest. When I got it home, I noticed that it "clunked". No response when I hooked it up, so, I took it apart... The head had gouged its way through the entire thickness of the platter; the remaining part of the platter was lying loose around the hub! It must have made a horrible screeching sound for days (months?), but I guess no-one noticed. The head is ground away, of course, but the arm's still intact. Anyone ever seen a worse failure? manney@lrbcg.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 2 16:10:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way In-Reply-To: <01bd760c$4b82f280$e528a2ce@laptop> from "PG Manney" at May 2, 98 04:53:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 960 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980502/4e0f0ab5/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat May 2 16:24:58 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Another good week for museum Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980502162458.006c31a0@pop3.concentric.net> Well it's be a good week but a little costly. Here's a short list; 1. The Sound Source by Disney lets have sound without a sound card hooks to printer port. 2. My second Mac Portable with case and manual, it works too! 3. Apple flat bed scanner model A9M0337 4. Zeos 386sx/20 powers up fine 5. 3M Whisper Writer 1000 teleprinter model 1482A 6. Hickok model 3301 digital multimeter 7. Heathkit utility voltmeter model 1M-17 042 8. Mac IIcx case with motherboard only had 8 1 meg simms in it (was free) 9. Fluke 901A Micro-system troubleshooter with manuals, service guides, newsletter and the following test PODs Fluke Z80/aa, Fluke 8085, Fluke 68000, Fluke 9900, Fluke 6800, Fluke 6809/6809E,Fluke 8086, Fluke 8080 10. HP colorpro model 74445A has power brick, manuals, color pins 11. Several packs of Fluke Instrument Accessory parts 12. Dr. Dobb's Essential Hypertalk Handbook 13. Computer Device miniterm 14. Monroe Beta 326 Scientist with manual and case, tape unit with power supply 15. Commodore PC-10III with KB and mouse 16. Tandy 1000 17 Commodore 128D 18. AGI 1700C 386sx/16 not tested yet 19. NEC multisync II not tested yet 20. Tandy 1000TL/3 model 25-1603 21. Tandy 1000HX manual 22. IBM PS/2 model 60 23. PB Legend I model PB686 24. TI99/4A in box 25. Commodore mouse 1351 26. Tandy RGB monitor CM-5 Well that's the short list there were alot more items and books but that's for anohter day. Keep Computing John From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat May 2 17:57:57 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Artistic Computers (was: Re: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1)) Message-ID: <19980502225757.20386.qmail@hotmail.com> I believe KISS tends to apply in these cases. In general, I find that I like blockier ones more. I won't get myself started on modern case design, but I will say that I do not find any of the "home computers" by Compaq, Toshiba, Acer, and Sony to be very nice-looking. Of classic computers, the TI 99/4a probably is in that vicinity... >On Sat, 2 May 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > >> On Fri, 1 May 1998, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> > Speaking of which, what are the ugliest machines? >> >> Apollo DOMAIN computers and every last intel based PC manufactured since >> 1993 and _especially_ since 1995. Except the new IBM GL machines which are >> actually kind of nice. > >I'm actually keen on the contemporary Compaq designs and the cool Acer >designs with the neon colors and artistically drilled venting holes in the >dense pattern. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 04/25/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lfb107 at psu.edu Sat May 2 18:26:53 1998 From: lfb107 at psu.edu (Les Berry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Apologies... Was Re: Anyone know where to find a Setup disk for Epson Equity II+? Message-ID: <199805022326.TAA77144@f04n01.cac.psu.edu> I am truly sorry for sending that huge file to the mailing list. I had intended it for Daniel only. Sorry for any inconveniences it may have caused. Les From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 2 18:44:09 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Seagate info In-Reply-To: <199805022326.TAA77144@f04n01.cac.psu.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980502184409.4af7e73a@intellistar.net> I just picked up a couple of old Seagate SCSI drives and I'm looking for jumper information. (YES, these DO have jumpers.) I can't find a Seagate site. Does anyone know of a site that has this kind of information? From scottk5 at ibm.net Sat May 2 19:09:50 1998 From: scottk5 at ibm.net (Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Seagate info Message-ID: <01BD7606.4662BFC0@slip166-72-159-141.nc.us.ibm.net> -----Original Message----- From: Joe [SMTP:rigdonj@intellistar.net] Sent: Saturday, May 02, 1998 2:44 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Seagate info I just picked up a couple of old Seagate SCSI drives and I'm looking for jumper information. (YES, these DO have jumpers.) I can't find a Seagate site. Does anyone know of a site that has this kind of information? [Kirk Scott] Try: http://www.blue-planet.com/tech/no-frames.html I've gotten a lot of information help on older drives from them. Kirk scottk5@ibm.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2204 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980502/2dda8653/attachment.bin From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 2 20:08:39 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Seagate info In-Reply-To: <01BD7606.4662BFC0@slip166-72-159-141.nc.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980502200839.67d7e70c@intellistar.net> Kirk, Thanks. That's exactly what I was looking for. Joe At 08:09 PM 5/2/98 -0400, you wrote: >[Kirk Scott] Try: http://www.blue-planet.com/tech/no-frames.html > >I've gotten a lot of information help on older drives from them. > >Kirk >scottk5@ibm.net From red at bears.org Sat May 2 20:19:39 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Seagate info In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980502200839.67d7e70c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 May 1998, Joe wrote: > Thanks. That's exactly what I was looking for. Uh, did you try www.seagate.com? They have information on even their oldest SCSI drives, Conner drives, and Imprimis too. ok r. From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat May 2 21:12:28 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Seagate info In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980502184409.4af7e73a@intellistar.net> References: <199805022326.TAA77144@f04n01.cac.psu.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980502211228.006c0a20@pop3.concentric.net> What are the drive numbers I can try and look them up in some the manuals I have? At 06:44 PM 5/2/98, you wrote: >I just picked up a couple of old Seagate SCSI drives and I'm looking for >jumper information. (YES, these DO have jumpers.) I can't find a Seagate >site. Does anyone know of a site that has this kind of information? > > > From adept at mcs.com Sat May 2 21:38:11 1998 From: adept at mcs.com (The Adept) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Seagate info References: <3.0.1.16.19980502184409.4af7e73a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <354BD892.5539D18F@mcs.com> For _all_ drives (not just seagate) I highly recommend TheRef. You can find it at: http://THEREF.C3D.RL.AF.MIL/ Cheers, Dan Joe wrote: > I just picked up a couple of old Seagate SCSI drives and I'm looking for > jumper information. (YES, these DO have jumpers.) I can't find a Seagate > site. Does anyone know of a site that has this kind of information? From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 2 21:38:15 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Artistic Computers (was: Re: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1)) Message-ID: <199805030238.AA21165@world.std.com> For direct to ugly... Commodore PET netronics explorer-85 intel mds800 minutman missle computer (lots of ways ugly!) I can think of others but those were pretty ugly on an esthetic basis and a few were ugly from a human factors standpoint (pet chicklet keys). Programming the serial disk computer of the MMC was really nasty. Allison From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 2 22:20:29 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Seagate info In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980502200839.67d7e70c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980502222029.0a776ff6@intellistar.net> Yes, I tried that URL. It said that that webpage was not available!?!?!?!? I don't know about Impris but Seagate just bought Conner (who had already bought Maynard, who had already bought Irwin.) There goes a lot of their competion! Joe At 09:19 PM 5/2/98 -0400, you wrote: >On Sat, 2 May 1998, Joe wrote: > >> Thanks. That's exactly what I was looking for. > >Uh, did you try www.seagate.com? They have information on even their >oldest SCSI drives, Conner drives, and Imprimis too. > >ok >r. > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 2 22:41:12 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Seagate info In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980502211228.006c0a20@pop3.concentric.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19980502184409.4af7e73a@intellistar.net> <199805022326.TAA77144@f04n01.cac.psu.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980502224112.4e475a1c@intellistar.net> John, They're ST3283Ns (248Mb SCSI-2) but I already found the info at the site that Kirk posted. BTW I don't have a SCSI-2 controller so if anyone can use these make me an offer. There are two drives and they're 248 Mb SCSI-2 with 12 mS average access time. Joe At 09:12 PM 5/2/98 -0500, you wrote: >What are the drive numbers I can try and look them up in some the manuals I >have? >At 06:44 PM 5/2/98, you wrote: >>I just picked up a couple of old Seagate SCSI drives and I'm looking for >>jumper information. (YES, these DO have jumpers.) I can't find a Seagate >>site. Does anyone know of a site that has this kind of information? >> >> >> > > From william at ans.net Sat May 2 22:46:05 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Artistic Computers (was: Re: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1)) In-Reply-To: <199805030238.AA21165@world.std.com> Message-ID: > minutman missle computer (lots of ways ugly!) That doesn't count! Those computers were meant to be out on public display for less than a half an hour each, depending on the targeting data. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Sat May 2 23:02:22 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Another IBM S/ Message-ID: At first I thought it was some sort of typo, but now I have another reference... What the heck is an IBM System/7? William Donzelli william@ans.net From donm at cts.com Sat May 2 23:22:36 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Seagate info In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980502222029.0a776ff6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 May 1998, Joe wrote: > Yes, I tried that URL. It said that that webpage was not available!?!?!?!? > I don't know about Impris but Seagate just bought Conner (who had already > bought Maynard, who had already bought Irwin.) There goes a lot of their > competion! Imprimis was the marketing name for drives made by the folks that used to be CDC. And don't forget Archive who was in there also. But that really doesn't eliminate as much competition as you think, since Archive, Irwin, and Maynard were really nonentities in the tape world a number of years back. - don > Joe > > At 09:19 PM 5/2/98 -0400, you wrote: > >On Sat, 2 May 1998, Joe wrote: > > > >> Thanks. That's exactly what I was looking for. > > > >Uh, did you try www.seagate.com? They have information on even their > >oldest SCSI drives, Conner drives, and Imprimis too. > > > >ok > >r. > > > > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From william at ans.net Sat May 2 23:25:53 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Another IBM S/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > What the heck is an IBM System/7? After a little looking around (thanks to the refine feature on Alta Vista, to get comb thru all of the Mac stuff), says that it was a sensor based system for laboratories and process control, ca. 1970. IBMs PDP-12? This does sound interesting... William Donzelli william@ans.net From donm at cts.com Sat May 2 23:34:50 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: A British piece In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm kinda aiming this one at Tony, but all inputs are welcomed. Today I picked up a G.R. Electronics Ltd "Pocket Terminal" and I am looking for some user information on it. The unit is about the size and shape of a pocket calculator, has 40 keys (chiclets) that cover the numerals, alphabet, and some additional functions. It also has a coil cord extending from the side that is terminated in a D25 male connector. Pins 2, 3, 4/20, 7, and 9 are connected. Inside the hatch (that would cover the batteries on a calculator) on the back is a 6 position DIP switch. The unit is obviously powered by what ever it connects to. Anyone know this unit? - don From dastar at wco.com Sun May 3 00:48:30 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Wang PC XC3-2 Message-ID: Ok, what do you all know about the Wang PC XC3-2 circa 1984? I got one today. Unfortunately it was just the system itself with no documentation, but I did get some software. This one has a 5.25" disk drive and a half-height hard drive. I haven't dug into it yet so don't know many more details but from the labels on the interface cards on the back it has an IBM Monochrome emulator board among all the basic stuff (winchester disk controller, serial, parallel, etc.) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/25/98] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 3 05:13:58 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Seagate info In-Reply-To: Joe "RE: Seagate info" (May 2, 22:20) References: <3.0.1.16.19980502200839.67d7e70c@intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19980502222029.0a776ff6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <9805031113.ZM7204@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 2, 22:20, Joe wrote: > Yes, I tried that URL. It said that that webpage was not available!?!?!?!? > I don't know about Impris but Seagate just bought Conner (who had already > bought Maynard, who had already bought Irwin.) There goes a lot of their > competion! > >Uh, did you try www.seagate.com? They have information on even their > >oldest SCSI drives, Conner drives, and Imprimis too. They also have an ftp site (ftp.seagate.com, I think) which has all the jumper info in text files. They also have zip files giving the info for griups of drives, eg all the scsi drives, all mfm, etc. I use them so often that I always have a reasonably up-to-date version on my server. BTW, I find seagate's site and similar sites much more useful than TheRef. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 2 20:36:48 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way In-Reply-To: "PG Manney" "HDD died in a spectacular way" (May 2, 16:53) References: <01bd760c$4b82f280$e528a2ce@laptop> Message-ID: <9805030236.ZM1268@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 2, 16:53, PG Manney wrote: > The head had gouged its way through the entire thickness of the platter; > > Anyone ever seen a worse failure? Not seen, but heard... Some time ago, I had a little Seagate 50MB drive on running on the shelf above a workstation. I knew it had a stiction problem, so I tended to leave it running most of the time. So there I was, minding my own business, as they say, and suddenly there was a very loud BANG. I couldn't see anything amiss, but I shut things down anyway. Then I realised any damage that was going to be done by whatever went bang had presumably already happened. I wasn't going to find much out by staring at a blank screen, so I powered everything up again. All came to life, but the Seagate just reported disk errors. Tried reformatting; no joy. So I took it apart. Every platter had huge circular gouges, and two of the heads were in bits, mostly embedded in the walls of the disk chamber. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From cad at gamewood.net Sun May 3 11:03:30 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Wang PC XC3-2 References: Message-ID: <354C9552.58AA@gamewood.net> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Ok, what do you all know about the Wang PC XC3-2 circa 1984? I got one > today. Unfortunately it was just the system itself with no documentation, > but I did get some software. This one has a 5.25" disk drive and a > half-height hard drive. Hi Sam: Not certain the model numbers match, but back in that era, I was doing some programming (in BASIC) as a volunteer effort at one of the local college libraries. I ran into something that caused a bit of trouble. I was doing things up 'right', with 'help' screens, etc. To trigger these things, I was trapping the 'key codes'. The problem??? If I entered BASIC via Wang's windows type interface, the 'key codes' for the 'help' key were one thing, If I just went to a "C:/" prompt, and entered BASIC, the key codes were entirely different. (NOT sub/super sets of each other, DIFFERENT). This was a real 'head scratcher' till I figured out what was happening. If you never try and do anything in BASIC on the machine, you will never run into the problem. But if you 'whip off a quickie' in BASIC, you may bump your head. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From kyrrin at jps.net Sun May 3 11:11:34 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: 'Classic' typewriter? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980503091134.00e40e80@mail.wa.jps.net> Yes, you read correctly. One of the local thrift stores turned up a Xerox 'MemoryWriter 630' for all of $8.00. Since I was in the market for something to fill out forms with, and curious about the MW series in any case, I picked it up (with a grunt -- these are not light!). It's built very robustly inside, and appears to be based heavily on the 8085 chip. The design and layout resemble (no surprise) the Diablo 630 series daisywheel terminals. A good vacuuming and a little oiling later and it works just great. Original manufacture date is around 1984 (based on the date codes I found on the components). No CRT on this one, though I understand that was one option. If anyone happens to have a user's guide, accessories, options, or diskettes for this beast, please let me know. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun May 3 11:26:35 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: 'Classic' typewriter? Message-ID: <19980503162635.29957.qmail@hotmail.com> I once saw one of these w/CRT and two floppy drives at a thrift store. It looked quite old ;) I tried it out, coudn't really tell how to use it, and didn't bother to take it. The thing on the screen looked a bit vi-like. Another thing that's more complicated than it should be... > Yes, you read correctly. One of the local thrift stores turned up a Xerox >'MemoryWriter 630' for all of $8.00. Since I was in the market for >something to fill out forms with, and curious about the MW series in any >case, I picked it up (with a grunt -- these are not light!). > > It's built very robustly inside, and appears to be based heavily on the >8085 chip. The design and layout resemble (no surprise) the Diablo 630 >series daisywheel terminals. A good vacuuming and a little oiling later and >it works just great. Original manufacture date is around 1984 (based on the >date codes I found on the components). > > No CRT on this one, though I understand that was one option. If anyone >happens to have a user's guide, accessories, options, or diskettes for this >beast, please let me know. > > Thanks in advance. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) >(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own >human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun May 3 11:13:15 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way In-Reply-To: <01bd760c$4b82f280$e528a2ce@laptop> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980503091315.00b2d840@agora.rdrop.com> At 04:53 PM 5/2/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Anyone ever seen a worse failure? Well, seen after the fact when I was called in to 'repair' it... And actually, quite a good thing that no one was there to witness it! (you will see why in a moment) Probably over 15 years ago, NorthStar offered a 14 inch hard drive in an external cabinet for use with the 'Horizon' microcomputers. It was amusing to watch with the top of the enclosure off as the entire unit was enclosed in a slightly smoked brown Plexiglass 'bubble'. The down side was that the sector wheel/transducer/tachometer assembly was external to the sealed housing and frequently caused "sector not found" errors as dust collected on it. This required regular (monthly or so) cleaning which required removal of the HDA from the external enclosure in order to access the bottom of the assembly. (quickly rectified by our staff after a couple of calls by using a 'nibbler' tool to add a 2"x3" opening on the bottom of the external enclosure that we could access the assembly through) It was also noted in one of the service bulletins that since this assembly also served as the tachometer for the spindle drive, that you could tell if the wheel was becoming dirty by a "surging" sound coming from the unit even if you did not experience sector errors. Little did we know... We had one customer who tended to keep his system up 24x7 since he had an external sales staff that used the system to file orders and he liked to work from home. (dial-in lines) He also liked to run the HD with the upper part of the external enclosure removed so that he could show off to customers and clients just how advanced their operation was. (ignoring our warnings that this would allow the unit to attract dust and dirt more rapidly) Well... One Monday morning I get to the shop and we have a number of messages on the answering machine (in increasing levels of agitation). He starts off by explaining that Friday evening he started getting frequend 'sector' errors reported from the system. Over the course of the day Saturday the errors increased and the system response degraded. Sunday morning the system would not answer a call at all. Sunday evening he got a call from the Alarm Monitoring company that something had tripped the offive alarms. When he went in to check the building, he noted that there "appeared to be a problem with the hard drive" and wanted us out there first thing to make sure he did not lose any data. So... a couple of us went out expecting to have to clean out the wheel assembly (yet again) and perhaps correct a couple of glitched sectors... WRONG! When we entered the computer room, it was quite obvious that there was a bit more than a "problem with the hard drive"! The room looked like someone had stood in the center of the room with an M-16, and used it to try to cut the room in half. Clear around the room at about table top level were pieces of plastic and metal stuck into the wall boards. The plexiglas 'bubble' from the HDA was gone (obviously shattered) and the platters had large chunks missing from them. No need to even look for the head/arm assemblies. After an extended discussion with the customer, of which most of the time was spent explaining that we would NOT be able to recover any data from the drive, we set about collecting the wreckage and installing a new drive and software. Once back at the shop, a call to NorthStar brought a visit a few days later from one of their technical support staff as well as an engineer from the manufacturer of the HDA (Micropolis if I recall correctly). The "official" explaination went something like this: Due to the design of the (rather basic) tachometer circuit in this unit, a missing sector pulse was intrepreted by the tach as a loss of spindle speed. (start-up mode mentality, if you are starting the drive and don't see a pulse, speed up (or start-up) the motor until the required pulse rate is achieved) This was the cause of the "surging" sound noted in previous service bulletins. In "theory" (now apparently proven) if the sector/tach wheel became sufficiently dirty the tachometer circuit could attempt to keep increasing spindle speed up to such a point where a failure of the unit might be induced either by overload failure of the spindle motor or by excess vibration caused by excess rotational speed. Apparently, no one ever considered a 'fail-safe' for the tachometer circuit... While they never did detail just exactly what failed first, whatever it was apparently caused a head crash severe enough to fracture one or more of the platters, and from that point it was all downhill... Without the cover of the external enclosure to contain it, (a metal enclosure by the way) when things started to come apart there was nothing to stop it! And the results were indeed quite spectacular. Made everyone a good deal more serious about keeping those sensor wheels clean... (and the covers on!) BTW: NorthStar did replace the drive for us... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun May 3 11:20:57 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: Seagate info In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980502222029.0a776ff6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980503092057.008b8830@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:22 PM 5/2/98 -0700, you wrote: >On Sat, 2 May 1998, Joe wrote: > >> Yes, I tried that URL. It said that that webpage was not available!?!?!?!? I've noticed a lot of DNS related problems on the net over the last week. A number of domains suddenly vanishing for hours and then returning. I quick troll thru the InterNIC databases indicates that there seems to be some type of wholesale reworking of the databases in process as the 'database last updated' time stamps are all starting to show very recent dates. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 3 06:44:42 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way In-Reply-To: <9805030236.ZM1268@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 3, 98 01:36:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1034 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980503/bf18463c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 3 06:49:14 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: A British piece In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at May 2, 98 09:34:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1146 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980503/4ec95250/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun May 3 13:12:59 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: TI99: Anyone reading this with a TI-99/4A? Message-ID: <199805031812.AA11071@world.std.com> <> Today I picked up a G.R. Electronics Ltd "Pocket Terminal" and I am <> looking for some user information on it. I have two of them, it's a mini terminal. I have no data even though I know mine work. Allison From dastar at wco.com Sun May 3 13:51:04 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980503091315.00b2d840@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 May 1998, James Willing wrote: > The room looked like someone had stood in the center of the room with an > M-16, and used it to try to cut the room in half. Clear around the room at > about table top level were pieces of plastic and metal stuck into the wall > boards. The plexiglas 'bubble' from the HDA was gone (obviously shattered) > and the platters had large chunks missing from them. No need to even look > for the head/arm assemblies. This is hilarious. I've never heard of a hard drive going "Rambo". Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/25/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 3 12:19:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980503091315.00b2d840@agora.rdrop.com> from "James Willing" at May 3, 98 09:13:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2981 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980503/67c9b661/attachment.ksh From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Sun May 3 14:34:37 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: 'Classic' typewriter? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980503091134.00e40e80@mail.wa.jps.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980503143437.007e0c40@wingate> At 09:11 AM 5/3/98 -0700, you wrote: > Yes, you read correctly. One of the local thrift stores turned up a Xerox >'MemoryWriter 630' for all of $8.00. Since I was in the market for >something to fill out forms with, and curious about the MW series in any >case, I picked it up (with a grunt -- these are not light!). > [snip] > No CRT on this one, though I understand that was one option. If anyone >happens to have a user's guide, accessories, options, or diskettes for this >beast, please let me know. I recall finding a couple of web pages devoted to classic typewriters several months ago. I would imagine you could probably find some useful information on at least one of them. I wonder if Xerox is any better than IBM about supporting old hardware? It might be worthwhile to call a couple Xerox repair shops about parts. > > Thanks in advance. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) >(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own >human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > -- David Wollmann | dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Sun May 3 14:30:47 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: TI99: Anyone reading this with a TI-99/4A? In-Reply-To: <199805031812.AA11071@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980503143047.007d8100@wingate> At 02:12 PM 5/3/98 -0400, you wrote: [stuff about *nix and 8-bit machines snipped] >I find the idea of not less than 32bits, 200mhz cpus and large memory >being a must to be patently retrorevisionist to the history of what was >done before those things were available. > > >Allison I find that when I'm working on a "slower" machine I tend to be more careful and precise because I know that if I make a mistake it could cost me a whole day of production. This is especially true when I'm running a large data file conversion. If I make a mistake on a big System/36 document extraction, it might be as long as eight hours before I learn that I have to start over (mostly because the process is a real hack and doesn't allow me to do much error checking until it's finished). I think bigger-better-faster systems can actually contribute to a loss of productivity, because overall, users aren't as motivated to "do it right the first time." -- David Wollmann dwollmann@ibmhelp.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat May 2 10:52:23 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: (Fwd) Re: Wang PC XC3-2 Message-ID: <199805031950.PAA20482@smtp.interlog.com> From: Lawrence Walker Subject: Re: Wang PC XC3-2 Reply-to: lwalker@interlog.com Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 15:02:08 On 2 May 98 at 22:48, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Ok, what do you all know about the Wang PC XC3-2 circa 1984? I got one > today. Unfortunately it was just the system itself with no documentation, > but I did get some software. This one has a 5.25" disk drive and a > half-height hard drive. I haven't dug into it yet so don't know many more > details but from the labels on the interface cards on the back it has an > IBM Monochrome emulator board among all the basic stuff (winchester disk > controller, serial, parallel, etc.) > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com I posted on a trash find about 2 weeks ago on virtually the same machine, with no response. Ditto on some newsgroups. That in itself is fascinating.The one I have is a PC-S3-2. The only info I was able to find on Wang's venture into the world of MS-DOS was on the Wang users bbs and this was pretty slim. They call it a "classic" Wang, (Apple anyone ?) I was able to get a start-up file from them but it seems to be an orphan like the Atari PC. There's quite a few Wang CP/M enthusiasts sites but like the TRS m.2 little info on this beast. even tho, like the TRS m.2, many were sold to the business community. Most likely quietly fed to dumpsters around the world since most small businesses don't have garage sales. You were fortunate ( mind you didn't find it in the garbage) to have some means of IO. Mine had the 2 winchesters removed and nothing else. I find the MB interesting with its mix of Zilog, Motorola and Intel chips. Old Wang was known for it's interesting innovations and IIRC many of it's people went on to illustrious careers with other companies , like the original DEC, Xerox, and Atari crews did. I don\t have the URL for the WUG handy but it should be readily available thru a search. They're a Brit group IIRC and I wasn't about to pay $35 for the privelage of joining their discussions. Could you give me some info on the FDD's , KB , etc. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun May 3 15:06:53 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way Message-ID: <19980503200657.2375.qmail@hotmail.com> Truly incredible. The official explanation sounds like something from a book on Chernobyl. What the heck did the thing use for a motor? Diesel or Gasoline? > >At 04:53 PM 5/2/98 -0400, you wrote: >> >>Anyone ever seen a worse failure? > >Well, seen after the fact when I was called in to 'repair' it... And >actually, quite a good thing that no one was there to witness it! (you >will see why in a moment) > >Probably over 15 years ago, NorthStar offered a 14 inch hard drive in an >external cabinet for use with the 'Horizon' microcomputers. It was amusing >to watch with the top of the enclosure off as the entire unit was enclosed >in a slightly smoked brown Plexiglass 'bubble'. > >The down side was that the sector wheel/transducer/tachometer assembly was >external to the sealed housing and frequently caused "sector not found" >errors as dust collected on it. This required regular (monthly or so) >cleaning which required removal of the HDA from the external enclosure in >order to access the bottom of the assembly. (quickly rectified by our >staff after a couple of calls by using a 'nibbler' tool to add a 2"x3" >opening on the bottom of the external enclosure that we could access the >assembly through) > >It was also noted in one of the service bulletins that since this assembly >also served as the tachometer for the spindle drive, that you could tell if >the wheel was becoming dirty by a "surging" sound coming from the unit even >if you did not experience sector errors. Little did we know... > >We had one customer who tended to keep his system up 24x7 since he had an >external sales staff that used the system to file orders and he liked to >work from home. (dial-in lines) He also liked to run the HD with the upper >part of the external enclosure removed so that he could show off to >customers and clients just how advanced their operation was. (ignoring our >warnings that this would allow the unit to attract dust and dirt more rapidly) > >Well... One Monday morning I get to the shop and we have a number of >messages on the answering machine (in increasing levels of agitation). He >starts off by explaining that Friday evening he started getting frequend >'sector' errors reported from the system. Over the course of the day >Saturday the errors increased and the system response degraded. Sunday >morning the system would not answer a call at all. Sunday evening he got a >call from the Alarm Monitoring company that something had tripped the >offive alarms. When he went in to check the building, he noted that there >"appeared to be a problem with the hard drive" and wanted us out there >first thing to make sure he did not lose any data. > >So... a couple of us went out expecting to have to clean out the wheel >assembly (yet again) and perhaps correct a couple of glitched sectors... >WRONG! > >When we entered the computer room, it was quite obvious that there was a >bit more than a "problem with the hard drive"! > >The room looked like someone had stood in the center of the room with an >M-16, and used it to try to cut the room in half. Clear around the room at >about table top level were pieces of plastic and metal stuck into the wall >boards. The plexiglas 'bubble' from the HDA was gone (obviously shattered) >and the platters had large chunks missing from them. No need to even look >for the head/arm assemblies. > >After an extended discussion with the customer, of which most of the time >was spent explaining that we would NOT be able to recover any data from the >drive, we set about collecting the wreckage and installing a new drive and >software. > >Once back at the shop, a call to NorthStar brought a visit a few days later >from one of their technical support staff as well as an engineer from the >manufacturer of the HDA (Micropolis if I recall correctly). > >The "official" explaination went something like this: > >Due to the design of the (rather basic) tachometer circuit in this unit, a >missing sector pulse was intrepreted by the tach as a loss of spindle >speed. (start-up mode mentality, if you are starting the drive and don't >see a pulse, speed up (or start-up) the motor until the required pulse rate >is achieved) This was the cause of the "surging" sound noted in previous >service bulletins. > >In "theory" (now apparently proven) if the sector/tach wheel became >sufficiently dirty the tachometer circuit could attempt to keep increasing >spindle speed up to such a point where a failure of the unit might be >induced either by overload failure of the spindle motor or by excess >vibration caused by excess rotational speed. > >Apparently, no one ever considered a 'fail-safe' for the tachometer circuit... > >While they never did detail just exactly what failed first, whatever it was >apparently caused a head crash severe enough to fracture one or more of the >platters, and from that point it was all downhill... > >Without the cover of the external enclosure to contain it, (a metal >enclosure by the way) when things started to come apart there was nothing >to stop it! And the results were indeed quite spectacular. > >Made everyone a good deal more serious about keeping those sensor wheels >clean... (and the covers on!) > >BTW: NorthStar did replace the drive for us... > >-jim > >--- >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun May 3 16:45:54 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 3, 98 06:19:06 pm Message-ID: <9805032045.AA30709@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1234 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980503/8ff378d3/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 3 15:30:07 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: HDD died in a spectacular way" (May 3, 18:19) References: Message-ID: <9805032130.ZM8218@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 3, 18:19, Tony Duell wrote: > > Well, seen after the fact when I was called in to 'repair' it... > > > > Probably over 15 years ago, NorthStar offered a 14 inch hard drive in an > > external cabinet for use with the 'Horizon' microcomputers. It was > > amusing to watch with the top of the enclosure off as the entire unit > > was enclosed in a slightly smoked brown Plexiglass 'bubble'. > > That description matches a number of 14" hard disks available at that > time. I still have a Shugart SA4000 (on a PERQ 1) which has a similar > design of HDA. But that one uses a synchronous mains motor to turn the > disks (and produces the write clock from a special head on one of the > disks, thus synchronising the whole thing to the disk rotation). I have a couple of 14" Fujitsus (a massive 135MB apiece) similar to that. They're the predecessors to the Eagles, which have heavy cast metal HDA enclosures. Much more fun to watch (and listen to). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun May 3 16:36:02 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: HDD ... Message-ID: <19980503213603.805.qmail@hotmail.com> With all this talk of hard drives slicing themselves and adjacent walls to pieces, how is it that the motor can spin up to such a high speed when it's not supposed to, and why doesn't the head dragging on the disk surface cause it to stop? Can any of these stories happen to a modern drive? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sun May 3 17:52:41 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: HDD ... Message-ID: <199805032252.AA20160@world.std.com> Anyone have or know where I can find specs for TEAC FD55E drives? I know they are single sided half height but I suspect they are 96tpi 80track drives. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 3 17:23:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way In-Reply-To: <9805032130.ZM8218@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 3, 98 08:30:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1168 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980503/bb141120/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 3 17:30:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: HDD ... In-Reply-To: <19980503213603.805.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at May 3, 98 02:36:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1420 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980503/dc7d942a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 3 17:38:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way In-Reply-To: <9805032045.AA30709@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at May 3, 98 01:45:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1118 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980503/317aeb2d/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 3 18:59:40 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: FD55E drives... In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) "FD55E drives..." (May 3, 19:16) References: <199805032316.AA04672@world.std.com> Message-ID: <9805040059.ZM9418@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 3, 19:16, Allison J Parent wrote: > Anyone have or know where I can find specs for TEAC FD55E drives? > > I know they are single sided half height but I suspect they are 96tpi > 80track drives. Easy way to find out is to try it :-) There's a small amount of data on TEAC's web site, http://www.teac.com/dsp/fd/fd_55.html but that's really for the -R series which are newer. I've got jumper and setting info for the GFR (similar to RX33) and a little info on the FD55-FB and FD55-BVU (40 trk DS) and FD55-GFV-17 (HD 80 trk). TEAC also have a faxback service, and there's a catalogue of the faxback documents at http://www.teac.com/dsp/catalog.html You could try http://www.psyber.com/~tcj as well. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 3 18:43:30 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: FD55E drives... In-Reply-To: <199805032316.AA04672@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at May 3, 98 07:16:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 798 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980504/2b67e26f/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 3 19:06:05 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: HDD died in a spectacular way" (May 3, 23:38) References: Message-ID: <9805040106.ZM9433@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 3, 23:38, Tony Duell wrote: > Tim wrote: > > Same goes for the RL01/RL02 (which will spin about 3000 RPM instead > > of nominal if you convince them to spin up without a pack). > > Yes, but with no pack there's no platter to break up :-) > > I'm not going to try it, but what does an RL0x do if you get it to > overspeed with a pack in place, I wonder? Probably not a lot. Not much, it just goes rather faster than normal. I've seen it happen when a servo circuit failed (actually, a field servoid had removed a vital component from a drive that he thought wouldn't be used again). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 3 19:08:24 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:40 2005 Subject: HDD ... In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: HDD ..." (May 3, 23:30) References: Message-ID: <9805040108.ZM9438@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 3, 23:30, Tony Duell wrote: > On (almost) all hard disks, the head doesn't drag on the disk - it floats > on a film of air. Even if the head crashes, the intertia of a stack of > 14" aluminium platters is considerable, and the most likely result is > that the head/mounting is ripped off the arm and flung into the HDA > housing/across the room. That's what happened to my Seagate, as far as I could see. > > > Can any of these stories happen to a modern drive? > > Unlikely. The platters are a lot smaller for one thing, so they can > probably rotate faster without breaking up. And there's likely to be more > complex speed control of the spindle motor, so it may not be able to > overspeed significantly. > > I'm not worried about my PC drive suddenly spreading bits of platter > through the front of the case. No, but the load bang I described was from a 3.5" winnie. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 3 19:01:29 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: HDD died in a spectacular way" (May 3, 23:23) References: Message-ID: <9805040101.ZM9429@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 3, 23:23, Tony Duell wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > I have a couple of 14" Fujitsus (a massive 135MB apiece) similar to that. > > Well, that Shugart I mentioned is either 12Mbytes or 24Mbytes depending > on how many disks/heads were fitted at the factory. > > > They're the predecessors to the Eagles, which have heavy cast metal HDA > > enclosures. Much more fun to watch (and listen to). > > I remember the Eagle... I've got the service manual somewhere (given to > me along with some other manuals) and I once had to repair a later drive > (2361???) that was somewhat similar to the Eagle (maybe it was called a > Double Eagle or something - I forget). The HDAs in those drives certainly > look impressive. Super Eagle. Impressive? Yes, those fins really are there to cool it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From donm at cts.com Sun May 3 19:09:26 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: FD55E drives... In-Reply-To: <199805032316.AA04672@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 May 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > Anyone have or know where I can find specs for TEAC FD55E drives? > > I know they are single sided half height but I suspect they are 96tpi > 80track drives. > > Allison Bingo! They are a single head version of the FD55F which was their 'quad' density drive - 96tpi and 250k data rate. What other info would you like? - don From donm at cts.com Sun May 3 19:14:50 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've used other, larger disk drives (14" CDC drives in particular) > > where a magnetic index sensor is used to detect speed. If you attempt > > to spin one of these drives up without the sensor operating, they will > > go over-speed, but won't self destruct (yes, I've tested this.) After > > I have to ask : did you test this on purpose, or did you forget to plug > the sensor in ? :-) > > > detecting that they apparently haven't spun up to speed in time, they'll begin > > the spin-down sequence. > > I guess some problems on the Micropolis 1200 would cause the > microcontroller to think the drive hadn't spun up and then disable the > motor. It's also quite possible that the motor in said drive can't run > fast enough to cause major damage anyway (but I'm not going to try it!) > > > > > Same goes for the RL01/RL02 (which will spin about 3000 RPM instead > > of nominal if you convince them to spin up without a pack). > > Yes, but with no pack there's no platter to break up :-) True, but you might make quite a 'copper splash' with the armature windings! - don > I'm not going to try it, but what does an RL0x do if you get it to > overspeed with a pack in place, I wonder? Probably not a lot. > > > > > Tim. > > > > -tony > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun May 3 19:31:30 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: Backing up to videotape Message-ID: <19980504003130.10529.qmail@hotmail.com> I have seen, on this list and otherwise, comments about cards that allow a VCR to be plugged in and data to be written to them. I was wondering if a) this is a good idea b) why these things cost so much - shouldn't a simple D/A converter and serial port do? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From engine at chac.org Sun May 3 20:02:27 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: HDD ... In-Reply-To: References: <19980503213603.805.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980503180227.00fb8280@pop.batnet.com> At 23:30 5/3/98 +0100, Tony wrote: >I'm not worried about my PC drive suddenly spreading bits of platter >through the front of the case. There were rumors, though, that some of the earliest high-RPM oxide-on-glass 3.5x1" drives did exactly that. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 3 20:52:50 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: FD55E drives... In-Reply-To: <199805032316.AA04672@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980503205250.006c190c@pop3.concentric.net> in my pcref it's listed as 5.25/half/360kb/dsdd At 07:16 PM 5/3/98 -0400, you wrote: >Anyone have or know where I can find specs for TEAC FD55E drives? > >I know they are single sided half height but I suspect they are 96tpi >80track drives. > >Allison > > > From donm at cts.com Sun May 3 22:25:57 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: Wang PC XC3-2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 2 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Ok, what do you all know about the Wang PC XC3-2 circa 1984? I got one > today. Unfortunately it was just the system itself with no documentation, > but I did get some software. This one has a 5.25" disk drive and a > half-height hard drive. I haven't dug into it yet so don't know many more > details but from the labels on the interface cards on the back it has an > IBM Monochrome emulator board among all the basic stuff (winchester disk > controller, serial, parallel, etc.) Sam, even with the IBM emulator board they are only marginally PC compatible. Without, they run Wang programs only. I have a fairly full set of disks for the machine. Of course, you may have some/much of it on the hard disk. I'm sorry that I didn't respond to Larry when he posted his query, but I misread it that he was talking about one of the PC look-a-like (compatible?) series that came along in the mid/late '80s. - don From dastar at wco.com Mon May 4 01:59:21 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: (Fwd) Re: Wang PC XC3-2 In-Reply-To: <199805031950.PAA20482@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 May 1998, Lawrence Walker wrote: > Most likely quietly fed to dumpsters around the world since most small > businesses don't have garage sales. You were fortunate ( mind you didn't find > it in the garbage) to have some means of IO. Mine had the 2 winchesters > removed and nothing else. I find the MB interesting with its mix of Zilog, > Motorola and Intel chips. Old Wang was known for it's interesting innovations My motherboard is probably a later revision (board is stamped with 1985 date code) and only has Intel 8086 CPU. > and IIRC many of it's people went on to illustrious careers with other > companies , like the original DEC, Xerox, and Atari crews did. I don\t have the > URL for the WUG handy but it should be readily available thru a search. They're > a Brit group IIRC and I wasn't about to pay $35 for the privelage of joining > their discussions. Could you give me some info on the FDD's , KB , etc. The floppy drive seemed to be a standard half-height double density drive. The keyboard is interesting. Its definitely not a standard PC keyboard. First of all it has a 4-conductor DIN plug. Also, upon boot-up it seems to go through a rigorous self-test. There are 3 LEDs on the keyboard between the top row number keys and the function keys. They light-up in patterns at boot-up for several seconds. Pretty cool to watch. Also, the keyboard has a speaker in it. I didn't pay attention as to whether the system beeps emanate from it but it does make a pleasant key-click sound for every key pressed. The hard drive is a 10 MB NEC (model 134-200403-006). I'm hoping its auto-parking because I couldn't find any park or shutdown command on the drive. It has MS-DOS 2.01 loaded. I got additional floppies which are basically system disks: DOS, diagnostics, etc. My unit also has a Streamer Interface (a tape drive controller). The system boots into a nice menu program. From there you can get into most everything loaded onto the hard drive including Wang BASIC (which is simply a re-branded GW BASIC). You can also modify the menu system add your own items. On an unrelated note, today I picked up a very cool PC disk copying system. Its a small box, big enough to enclose two half-height 5.25" drives and a power supply and controller board. The front panel has three buttons: Start, Reset and AT/XT. I assume the AT/XT button allows you to select between double density and Quad/High(?) density disks. However, the button seems to be stuck. Basically you stick the original in the top drive and the blank in the bottom and hit start. It takes about 90 seconds to do a complete copy. It does a track by track copy, reading the track from drive A and writing it to drive B. I'm not sure if it will copy copy-protected diskettes but I don't see any reason why not. It uses some Intel micro-controller on the controller board but I don't know which one as all the indentifying numbers have been scratched off for whatever reason. The rest is TTL logic. I made a copy of a 360K disk and it worked fine. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/25/98] From dastar at wco.com Mon May 4 02:04:49 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: Wang PC XC3-2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 May 1998, Don Maslin wrote: > Sam, even with the IBM emulator board they are only marginally PC > compatible. Without, they run Wang programs only. I have a fairly full > set of disks for the machine. Of course, you may have some/much of it on > the hard disk. I've got the basic system files, including BASIC and some diagnostic utilities. > I'm sorry that I didn't respond to Larry when he posted his query, but I > misread it that he was talking about one of the PC look-a-like > (compatible?) series that came along in the mid/late '80s. One of the disks I got is labeled "IBM Emulation". I don't know when I'll get a chance to play with it but I'll take your word for it that it isn't very "compatible". It is a very interesting machine. For one thing, it is huge, being at least twice the size of a standard PC. The motherboard is about 3 square feet (~24" x 18")! It has 512K on the motherboard and a 256K expansion card. The expansion cards are large as well, being about 12" x 8". Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/25/98] From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon May 4 07:55:31 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: I guess RSTS doesn't like RA92s... Message-ID: <13352970107.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I dragged the RA92 up here, plugged it in as DU1, and started RSTS, but RSTS says DU1 doesn't exist. This is RSTS/E v8.0-07. Is there some trick to do to make the RA92 work, or am I up a creek? I'll play with it to make sure it's not my cabling, but I have it the same way as the RA81, so I doubt it... ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon May 4 08:01:32 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: I guess RSTS doesn't like RA92s... In-Reply-To: <13352970107.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <13352971202.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I just realized how dumb that sounded... I just plugged the 92 in the 1 port of the controller (UDA50). Completely forgetting how to set the ID. How does one set the ID on a RA92? ------- From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 4 08:21:14 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: FD55E drives... Message-ID: <199805041321.AA23172@world.std.com> from "Tony Duell" at May 3, 98 11:38:10 pm Message-ID: <9805041325.AA28631@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 474 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980504/4f2a0fb1/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at jps.net Mon May 4 09:00:39 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: Fujitsu Eagle Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980504070039.00e48800@mail.wa.jps.net> Before I go calling around to drive repair places, does anyone happen to have the service manual for a Fujitsu 'Eagle' (M2351 series) that they feel they could part with? I'd be happy to pick up postage for such. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jharper at bs2000.com Mon May 4 08:51:40 1998 From: jharper at bs2000.com (Jack Harper) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way In-Reply-To: References: <01bd760c$4b82f280$e528a2ce@laptop> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980504075140.00c801b4@teal.csn.net> At 22:10 5/2/98 +0100, you wrote: >> >> I recently bought a Maxtor IDE along with other HDDs at a hamfest. When I >> got it home, I noticed that it "clunked". No response when I hooked it up, >> so, I took it apart... >> >> The head had gouged its way through the entire thickness of the platter; the >> remaining part of the platter was lying loose around the hub! It must have >> made a horrible screeching sound for days (months?), but I guess no-one >> noticed. > Some years ago (actually about 25 :) -- I saw the results of a head crash on a CDC (mainframe) disk -- this thing had platters that were 5 or 6 feet in diameter -- it was as you describe -- circular 'ditch' dug into the medium with bits and pieces of head embedded here and there... Regards Jack --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Harper Bank Systems 2000, Inc. 303-277-1892 Golden, Colorado USA "21st Century Financial Applications" Optical Cards for Bank, EBT, and Medical Applications Visit our Web Page: http://www.bs2000.com/talos (Last Update: 980421) --------------------------------------------------------------------- From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Mon May 4 09:52:15 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: FD55E drives... In-Reply-To: <199805041321.AA23172@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at May 4, 98 09:21:14 am Message-ID: <199805041452.KAA21296@shell.monmouth.com> > > > <'quad' density drive - 96tpi and 250k data rate. > < > > Thanks Don, that conformed what I thought. They are used in Visual 1050 > CPM3 systems as 400kb drives. I'm looking at fitting them with a 3.5" > drive to be compatable with my other CPM systems at 720/780/1.44. > > Allison > > If anyone's dumping 96 TPI floppy drives, I'm looking for four for a VT180 upgrade to half height 96TPI drives. Perhaps one day I'll put in 3 1/2's. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon May 4 10:32:39 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: OK, got farther... (RSTS 8.0-07 + RA92) Message-ID: <13352998713.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Now the RA is hardware visible. As opposed to the RA81, where you CAN'T plug it straight into the controller, the RA92 likes that. Go figure. Anyway, I boot up and say HARDWR LIST. It sees 2 devices off the UDA50, the RA81 and the RA92. It identifies the RA92 as a RA92 also. Now, I try to DSKINT the 92. I get to where it asks me for pack clustersize. The default here is 32. When I type 32, it says ?Illegal clustersize specified and prompts me again. Nothing works. Apparently 32 is too big a number, but it's the required number, so I've shot myself in the foot. Is this a known bug? Have I screwed up here? Is there something I can change in RAM to let me go ahead? I can't find any mention of this anywhere.... ------- From donm at cts.com Mon May 4 13:15:37 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: (Fwd) Re: Wang PC XC3-2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > On an unrelated note, today I picked up a very cool PC disk copying > system. Its a small box, big enough to enclose two half-height 5.25" > drives and a power supply and controller board. The front panel has three > buttons: Start, Reset and AT/XT. I assume the AT/XT button allows you to > select between double density and Quad/High(?) density disks. However, > the button seems to be stuck. Basically you stick the original in the top > drive and the blank in the bottom and hit start. It takes about 90 > seconds to do a complete copy. It does a track by track copy, reading the > track from drive A and writing it to drive B. I'm not sure if it will > copy copy-protected diskettes but I don't see any reason why not. It uses > some Intel micro-controller on the controller board but I don't know which > one as all the indentifying numbers have been scratched off for whatever > reason. The rest is TTL logic. > > I made a copy of a 360K disk and it worked fine. Sam, if you have the hardware at hand, try duplicating a non-DOS disk and see if that works. I have an analogous box here whivh gags on anything but standard DOS formats. - don From dastar at wco.com Mon May 4 14:46:41 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: (Fwd) Re: Wang PC XC3-2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 May 1998, Don Maslin wrote: > > On an unrelated note, today I picked up a very cool PC disk copying > > system. Its a small box, big enough to enclose two half-height 5.25" <...> > > Sam, if you have the hardware at hand, try duplicating a non-DOS disk and > see if that works. I have an analogous box here whivh gags on anything > but standard DOS formats. I considered this and will try it, but my guess is that it can only copy PC formatted diskettes. How cool it would be if I'm wrong though. We shall see. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/25/98] From cad at gamewood.net Mon May 4 16:24:23 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: OK, got farther... (RSTS 8.0-07 + RA92) References: <13352998713.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <354E3207.2006@gamewood.net> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > Now the RA is hardware visible. As opposed to the RA81, where you CAN'T > plug it straight into the controller, the RA92 likes that. Go figure. > Anyway, I boot up and say HARDWR LIST. > It sees 2 devices off the UDA50, the RA81 and the RA92. It identifies the > RA92 as a RA92 also. > Now, I try to DSKINT the 92. I get to where it asks me for > pack clustersize. The default here is 32. When I type 32, it says > ?Illegal clustersize specified > and prompts me again. Nothing works. Even an _empty line_, I.E. just a carriagee return? IF '32' is really a default, then a carriage return _should_ enter that. CChuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon May 4 16:28:01 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: OK, got farther... (RSTS 8.0-07 + RA92) In-Reply-To: <354E3207.2006@gamewood.net> Message-ID: <13353063405.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Am I sending just a linefeed?] I tried that. Same answer. If I say enter though, I get a .. until I enter something. ------- From cad at gamewood.net Mon May 4 16:45:27 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: OK, got farther... (RSTS 8.0-07 + RA92) References: <13353063405.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <354E36F7.2038@gamewood.net> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > [Am I sending just a linefeed?] > I tried that. Same answer. > If I say enter though, I get a > .. > until I enter something. > ------- O.K. Next question. Is the system expecting the input to be in some base other than 'decimal' (10). I.E. if the input is expected to be in HEX, and you are entering the digits 3 and 2, that translates to 50 in base 10. Try a '20' as input and see what happens. Chuck From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon May 4 16:59:55 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: OK, got farther... (RSTS 8.0-07 + RA92) In-Reply-To: <354E36F7.2038@gamewood.net> Message-ID: <13353069213.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Is it expecting hex?] That I doubt. It probably wants Decimal or Octal, the PDP-11 is an octal machine. I'll try this tomorrow... What I think's happening is that RSTS was built before large disks were available. Therefore, it's expecting a clustersize less than 16. If I can find the CMP instruction that's catching me, and patch it, I should be able to continue. ------- From rcini at email.msn.com Mon May 4 18:27:56 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: N*'s available in Seattle Message-ID: <00db01bd77b4$b99dff40$6e21a7cd@bothell> Found in comp.sys.northstar: >Hi, >I have three functional Northstar Horizons (at least they were working >when they went into the basement) that I'd like to find a good home >for. > >For history buffs. the systems used to belong to Dr. Tim Lineham in >Olympia Wa. and served as one of the very early Z-Node bbs systems. >Gar Nelson >Seattle, Wa. Reply directly to the original author (elli12@gte.net) . Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 4 20:58:49 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at May 3, 98 05:14:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 449 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980505/f4574e0a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 4 21:28:05 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: Fujitsu Eagle In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980504070039.00e48800@mail.wa.jps.net> from "Bruce Lane" at May 4, 98 07:00:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 511 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980505/ca236dc9/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at jps.net Mon May 4 23:30:48 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: FW: DECStation 3100 needs rescue in CO. Message-ID: <35589598.106829202@smtp.jps.net> Found this on Usenet. A fellow in Colorado's looking for a home for a DS3100. Any takers, please contact him directly. -=-=- -=-=- From: jimvela@aol.com (JimVela) Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Subject: DS3100: Free to good home Lines: 22 Message-ID: <1998050417034500.NAA19003@ladder03.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder03.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 04 May 1998 17:03:45 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.59.152.222!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Greetings... I have a DS3100 system which I picked up cheap, and was planning to play with NetBSD or OpenBSD on it. As it turns out, I've picked up a couple of other projects and will probably never get 'around to it'. I'll give the system away to anyone who can pick it up- I'm near Boulder, CO. The system is a DecStation 3100 with a VR299 monitor and Dec Keyboard. I don't have a mouse, or hard drives. I believe that there is 16Mb of Ram installed. As far as I know, it works fine. (I never got further than realizing that the mouse was generating an error on boot, and never made a loopback connector to go further.) Anyone that's interested, reply via email... Regards, Jim Velasquez -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin {at} j

s d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From donm at cts.com Mon May 4 23:39:45 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: HDD died in a spectacular way In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Same goes for the RL01/RL02 (which will spin about 3000 RPM instead > > > > of nominal if you convince them to spin up without a pack). > > > > > > Yes, but with no pack there's no platter to break up :-) > > > > True, but you might make quite a 'copper splash' with the armature > > windings! > > Every RL0x that I own uses an induction motor. The rotor is pretty solid, > and there are no reasonably fine windings to fly apart. Seems rather unusual to have a speed controlled induction motor, though the 3000 rpm would tend to support that. - don From red at bears.org Tue May 5 03:44:20 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: Convergent Voice Module Message-ID: I promised Sam I'd look this up a long time ago. I had some trouble with the phone lines, though, which made it impossible to use the modem. But here it is. I seem to have a preliminary version of the 'Voice Module' manual, although I did not get the module itself with the machine. The manual goes into a lot of detail: theory of operation, external interfaces, architecture... schematics... I'll quote from the overview: INTRODUCTION TO THE MODULE __________________________ GENERAL The Voice Processor Module, shown in Figure 1-1, provides a fully integrated voice and data interface between a workstation and the switched telephone netowrk or commonly used private automatic branche exchange (PABX) system (supporting Tip and Ring connection). When used with a digital PABX system, all signals and transmission between the Voice Processor Module and the PABX occur via analog techniques. The Voice Processor Module is an X-Bus module containing two printed-circuit boards. The first board contains a Bell 212A-compatible modem. The second board contains the following: * modular jacks for two telephone line interfaces (FCC, part 68, registered) * additional modular jack (FCC, part 68, registered) that allows connection to any standard voice unit (telephone set) * analog crosspoint switch allowing any device to connect to either line under software control * Dual-Tone Multifrequency (DTMF) touch-tone auto-dialer * DTMF touch-tone decoder that permits numeric data entry via remote voice unit touch pad * call progress tone detector * voice amplifier * Adaptive Pulse Code Modulation (ADPCM) CODEC (Coder/Decoder) for support of digitized voice communications at speeds far less than the normal 64Kbps * 8051 microprocessor to control all module activities (...excepts from following specifications...) Modem board is originate/answer, full-duplex. Supports 212A and Bell 103/113. DTMF generator generates all 16 DTMF digits, may be programmed to transmit various key sequences, and can generate single tones. CODEC and ADPCM technique allows recording/playback of digitized voice information at 6-kHz (24Kbps) or 8-kHz (32Kbps) rates. Software support is provided by CT-MAIL, CT-Net, and "Operator" software, which is specifically tailored for the Voice Module as follows: * Telephone directory management, which has the ability to add, delete, modify, and look up entries in a disk-based telephone directory, and automatically establish calls using the information in the directory. Menus provide assistance in accessing special functions used by PABXs. * Voice digitization, which allows the operator to use the CODEC to record and play back calls or messages. This capability enhances CT-MAIL, where it is used for voice annotation of written documents, as well as the inclusion of voice attatchments to textual mail. * Telephone answering, which allows an unattended system to automatically answer the telephone and perform a variety of user-selectable operations ranging from simple messatge playback/recording to input of numeric data from a telephone touch-tone pad. There you have it. All typos are my responsibility. ok r. From red at bears.org Tue May 5 03:45:48 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: Convergent Voice Module In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > I promised Sam I'd look this up a long time ago. I had some trouble with > the phone lines, though, which made it impossible to use the modem. Oh, yeah.. and the manual is dated March 1985. ok r. From Ivan.Calhoun at ins.gte.com Tue May 5 09:55:30 1998 From: Ivan.Calhoun at ins.gte.com (Ivan Calhoun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: Sord Computers Message-ID: <308F522E7AD2D0119353006097266E86039E0728@dfwtx03.ins.gte.com> Sorry about this message but I have friend who still uses a Sord IS 11C. Unfortunately it is now failing. I saw the message thread you had concerning some units that were available last year. Could either of you let me know the availability of a similar device or a person who can repair these units? Thanks, Ivan Calhoun From dastar at wco.com Tue May 5 10:29:53 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement Message-ID: Here's an interesting artifact. I got the reference manual for Microsoft BASIC-80 (version 5) over the weekend and it still had inside the original non-disclosure registration card that I guess one was compelled to sign and send in before they could use MS BASIC. This book was distributed with some morrow system as the card is addressed to Morrow Designs Software License Department. It reads: "The party below agrees that it is receiving a copy of MICROSOFT DISK BASIC or FORTRAN for use on a single computer only, as designated on this registration form. The pary agrees that all copies of MICROSOFT DISK BASIC and FORTRAN are owned by MICROSOFT, that all copies will be strictly safeguarded against disclosure to or use by persons not authorized by MICROSOFT to use MICROSOFT DISK BASIC or FORTRAN, and that the location of all copies will be reported to MICROSOFT at MICROSOFT's request. The party may make up to two additional copies only, for back-up purposes. The party agrees that unauthorized copying or disclosure will cause great damage to MICROSOFT." Sheesh! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/25/98] From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue May 5 12:33:59 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer Message-ID: <9804058944.AA894414890@compsci.powertech.co.uk> I have just returned after a long weekend to find my mail had got set to Postpone again. This has probably all been said but I thought I'd put my bit in anyway. Tony: < A question occurred to me today : Can you have an embedded analogue < computer, and if so, how many op-amps are needed to have one? Allison > Yes, and that's very common. None, a low pass filter(RC) performs a > function and can be considered analogue. A filter made of passive components or otherwise I wouldn't consider a computer, although I agree it is definitely analogue (Americans may omit the ue where appropriate). I would say that an analogue computer: (a) combines two or more signals (b) does so in a more complex way than by simple addition or subtraction. (But this could be A+dB/dt, for example) An analogue computer need not be electrical at all - quite complex analogue functions can be implemented in cams, for example. A good example of a simple embedded analogue computer is the ignition distributor on a petrol engine. This: Takes two inputs - camshaft angle and manifold vacuum; Differentiates camshaft angle to get engine speed (centrifugal weights on springs); Applies some non linear function to engine speed (cams attached to the centrifugal weights); Adds together camshaft angle, function(engine speed) and constant * vacuum level; Compares the result with a reference angle to generate pulses of a given width for the ignition. I claim that is a simple (but actually quite sophisticated) analogue computer. < I was looking at the service manual for my Micropolis 1203 hard disk, and < I read the circuit description of the servo electronics. It's a fairly < complicated array of op-amps, which combine integral and differential < forms of the position error, positioner current, etc. I would claim that < is an embedded analogue computer. > Valid claim, also a good example of a fairly complex function. Agreed 100% (As Tony would say). An excellent example of an embedded analogue computer. Another example is the convergence circuit in a colo(u)r television. This takes the two timebases as inputs, multiplies them and their squares/ first derivatives etc. by user settable constants, and feeds this back onto the deflection systems of the tube. < On the other hand, I think it would be stretching the definition to call < a simple op-amp wired as a voltage follower an analogue computer. > Correct. However often the buffer is between some function or follows one > so it's part of the analog system. Agreed it could be part of an analogue computer. But I think Tony's point was that it does not by itself make one. Otherwise practically any analogue circuit becomes a computer (One of Vonada's axioms, I think: All circuits are amplifiers) > Other analog systems common to computers: > > cassette IO (low pass filter on output) and complex filter/differentiator > edge/peak detectors for input. Some of the acients used PLLs for clock > recovery (KANSAS City is one). > > Analog to digital conversion (quantification). > Digtial to analog conversion (filtering) > > Disk/tape systems have several layers of analog function for data and > control. Definitely analogue systems. But some are merely filters, not computers. (I think a PLL almost qualifies as a computer, though...) But in general, I agree with you both - analogue computers are often small, simple and embedded, and they're a heck of a lot more common than most people think. Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue May 5 12:37:50 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement Message-ID: <9804058944.AA894415250@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Sam Ismail: > The party agrees that unauthorized copying or disclosure will cause great > damage to MICROSOFT." Hey! Let's all start copying Basic 80! Or other Microsoft stuff! Perhaps we can cause great damage to Microsoft! Wait a bit... somehow I don't think we'll do any damage unless we persuade people to buy our copies in preference to the originals. And it goes rather against the grain to persuade people to buy Microsoft stuff at all. Oh well. ;-) ;-) ;-) Philip. From sethm at loomcom.com Tue May 5 11:51:26 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? Message-ID: <199805051651.JAA01374@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 932 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980505/fe42077d/attachment.ksh From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue May 5 12:51:17 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement Message-ID: <01IWO6ZXDD42AIE6Z4@cc.usu.edu> Philip Belben: >Sam Ismail: > >> The party agrees that unauthorized copying or disclosure will cause great >> damage to MICROSOFT." > >Hey! Let's all start copying Basic 80! Or other Microsoft stuff! >Perhaps we can cause great damage to Microsoft! > >Wait a bit... somehow I don't think we'll do any damage unless we >persuade people to buy our copies in preference to the originals. Oh? You know somewhere you can buy the originals? Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue May 5 13:03:40 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement In-Reply-To: <01IWO6ZXDD42AIE6Z4@cc.usu.edu> from "Roger Ivie" at May 5, 98 10:51:17 am Message-ID: <9805051703.AA12711@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1892 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980505/be6392c4/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue May 5 13:07:25 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? In-Reply-To: <199805051651.JAA01374@squeep.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 1998, Seth J. Morabito wrote: > I've been playing with the Bob Supnik PDP* emulator recently, and I'm > curious if anyone has any RSX-11{M|M-PLUS} or RSTS disk images they'd > be willing to let me copy? I read through the license agreement that > comes with the Mentec software included with the emulator, and unless > I'm very much mistaken, it seems to cover RSX and RSTS as well as RT-11. > The only restrictions are that it must be for non commercial use (no > problem), and it must run only on the emulator (also no problem -- I > don't even own a PDP-11, sadly). > > So, does anyone have any bootable disk images for the emulator I could > play around with? I'd like to try out RSX, get a feel for installing > it on a new disk, doing SYSGENs, that sort of thing. Practice for if > I ever get my hands on an 11/44, you might say. Well... if you go trolling for images, try to find one for RSTS too! Last time I communicated with Mr. Supnik, he indicated that the reason that the RSTS (and I suppose RSX) software is not with the rest of the emulator set is because no one has yet come up with an image for a (disk) device that is supported by the emulator. (obviously, my Micro-RSTS RX-50 images did not help for the same reason...) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue May 5 13:26:10 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13353292444.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Well, I have my mostly-butchered RSTS v8.0-07 that I'm gonna try putting on an RL02, but it's missing OPSER and QUEMAN and the files needed to re-sysgen. Meaning, it's usefullnes would be limited. But, since there's no source or anything, I may be able to distribute a (edited to remove a few things) image... If anyone has the rest of 8.0-07, or can help me find out how to put it on a RA92, that would be appreciated very much... For example, is the RSTS filesystem itself able to address that much disk? ------- From sethm at loomcom.com Tue May 5 13:38:18 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at May 5, 98 11:07:25 am Message-ID: <199805051838.LAA03996@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 858 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980505/6b60e39b/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue May 5 13:37:05 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? In-Reply-To: <199805051838.LAA03996@squeep.com> Message-ID: <13353294432.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Adding RX50 to the Supnik emulator...] Yeah, it'd be a Lot Of Work(tm). Those talk MSCP, and there's little/no documentation on how it works. (I think...) ------- From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue May 5 13:50:14 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement Message-ID: <00a901bd7856$a73daec0$3767bcc1@hotze> Well, this kind of comes from a rant of mine... ya see, on my computer, I origionally had an AMD InterWave chip on my sound card, but found that it was STB made. It was made in Dec. 1996. I called about it in Dec. 1997, and NO ONE at their technical support knew ANYTHING about it. And that's a year after it was made!!! Anyway, lets call, e-mail, fax, walk up and talk to, etc. people at various companies and talk about tech support, etc. for old OLD products. (Like calling up IBM... "Hello, I've got this 8" disk here, it was new in package, and it was not free of mechanical errors. I want my money back!") Or saying that we found a bug in the 4K MS tape basic, etc. ;-) And DON'T COPY ANY SOFTWARE. I don't even care if it was made by a criminal, it gives you no right to do the same. BTW, I remember seeing copies of DOS 3.3 shwrinkwrapped by this company for Microsoft. Was this done widely? Where can I find out more? (Kai Kaltenbach? Know anyone who knows anything about this? I REALLY am longing for a copy of Windows 2.x, as I've got this software for it... from our school, even though they can't find hte actual 2.x disks.) Thanks, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Tim Shoppa To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 8:05 PM Subject: Re: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement >> >> The party agrees that unauthorized copying or disclosure will cause great >> >> damage to MICROSOFT." >> > >> >Hey! Let's all start copying Basic 80! Or other Microsoft stuff! >> >Perhaps we can cause great damage to Microsoft! >> > >> >Wait a bit... somehow I don't think we'll do any damage unless we >> >persuade people to buy our copies in preference to the originals. >> >> Oh? You know somewhere you can buy the originals? > >I've found some original sealed Microsoft CP/M software by frequenting >comp.os.cpm. None of the registration cards that I've sent in during >the past couple years have come back returned from any of Microsoft's >old Redmond/Seattle addresses, so I assume they found their way to >the right place (though I've never heard anything back from any bug >reports on CP/M products.) > >Q7 of the comp.os.cpm FAQ provides this address as a non-US source >of several Microsoft CP/M products: > > For our European readers, much is available in Germany. dBASE, > WordStar 3.0, Multiplan 1.06, SuperCalc PCW, and Microsoft Basic > (Interpreter and Compiler), M80, L80, CREF80 , and LIB80 can be > ordered in either PCW format or C128 (also native 1571) format from: > > Wiedmann Unternehmensberatung & EDV-Handel > Hauptstrasse 45 > 73553 Alfdorf > F.R.Germany > Tel: +49-7172-3000-0 (Inside Germany use 0-7172...) > Fax: +49-7172-3000-30 > > They are marketed as "for the C128", however the disks are in KAYPRO > IV format, and since the C128 uses the same screen codes as ADM-31 > or KAYPRO, it's probably interesting for people with other CP/M > machines as well. Everything is said to come with a German language > manual and each one is offered for DM 149.50 , including sales tax > of 15%, which you could probably somehow get a refund on if living > outside the EC. > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue May 5 14:00:36 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement References: <00a901bd7856$a73daec0$3767bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <354F61D4.56FD09FB@bbtel.com> Hotze wrote: > Anyway, lets call, e-mail, fax, walk up and talk to, etc. people at > various companies and talk about tech support, etc. for old OLD products. There are a few companies that openly share information on any and all products they've ever made. AST comes to mind most of all. You can call an 800 number to access the touch tone system for Fax Facts and they send your fax machine whatever data sheets you need, on their dime. On the other hand others, like ArtiSoft, are barely supporting the products they're selling at presently without some sort of 900 number for what they call support. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue May 5 14:08:28 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: HP 700/44 terminal Message-ID: <354F63AC.4D25053F@bbtel.com> I have one remaining Hewlett Packard 700/44 terminal with keyboard left to get rid of. Like new shape and in working order, fairly modern. Emulates other terminal systems like 52, 100, 200 series and HP series, maybe others. I need $10 plus shipping on this if someone wants it. I'm sure someone has a need for one. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From donm at cts.com Tue May 5 14:20:39 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement In-Reply-To: <9805051703.AA12711@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote: **** snip **** > Q7 of the comp.os.cpm FAQ provides this address as a non-US source > of several Microsoft CP/M products: > > For our European readers, much is available in Germany. dBASE, > WordStar 3.0, Multiplan 1.06, SuperCalc PCW, and Microsoft Basic > (Interpreter and Compiler), M80, L80, CREF80 , and LIB80 can be > ordered in either PCW format or C128 (also native 1571) format from: > > Wiedmann Unternehmensberatung & EDV-Handel > Hauptstrasse 45 > 73553 Alfdorf > F.R.Germany > Tel: +49-7172-3000-0 (Inside Germany use 0-7172...) > Fax: +49-7172-3000-30 > > They are marketed as "for the C128", however the disks are in KAYPRO > IV format, and since the C128 uses the same screen codes as ADM-31 > or KAYPRO, it's probably interesting for people with other CP/M > machines as well. Everything is said to come with a German language > manual and each one is offered for DM 149.50 , including sales tax > of 15%, which you could probably somehow get a refund on if living > outside the EC. What is that in euros? - don > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue May 5 14:36:45 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? In-Reply-To: <199805051838.LAA03996@squeep.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 1998, Seth J. Morabito wrote: > > Last time I communicated with Mr. Supnik, he indicated that the reason > > that the RSTS (and I suppose RSX) software is not with the rest of the > > emulator set is because no one has yet come up with an image for a > > (disk) device that is supported by the emulator. > > Ah, so what I'm looking for then is either a RK05, RL01/02, RP04/05/06/07, > or RX01 images. How big were RSX and/or RSTS? Did they come on RX01 > media for installation? I imagine it would take quite a few disks at > only 256KB each :/ On the other hand, you could then play with making > clean installs from the "original" media. Hmmm... been WAY too long for me to remember that one exactly, although for comparison I can state that the Micro-RSTS distribution (non-SYSGENable) comes on 10 RX-50 diskettes. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue May 5 15:42:00 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? In-Reply-To: <199805051838.LAA03996@squeep.com> from "Seth J. Morabito" at May 5, 98 11:38:18 am Message-ID: <9805051942.AA15071@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 928 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980505/4a9db4e0/attachment.ksh From sethm at loomcom.com Tue May 5 15:03:02 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:41 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? In-Reply-To: <9805051942.AA15071@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at May 5, 98 12:42:00 pm Message-ID: <199805052003.NAA05900@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 908 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980505/51724a82/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 5 13:23:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Zenith Z90 Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2150 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980505/f571bb36/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 5 12:58:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer In-Reply-To: <9804058944.AA894414890@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at May 5, 98 05:33:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2766 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980505/f4f69091/attachment.ksh From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue May 5 15:53:28 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement In-Reply-To: <354F61D4.56FD09FB@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <199805052055.PAA21641@onyx.southwind.net> /rant=on If a company discontinues a product, I generally won't hold it against them. If a company discontinues support on a product, while this is upsetting, if it's an old product, I won't hold it against them. But if they have the gall to discontinue a product, cut off all support, and then refuse to supply source listings, drawings, or whatever because "It's proprietary" . . . . You bet your ass I'm gonna raise Holy Hell, flame them at every opportunity, and discourage ANYONE from doing business with them. The management of such companies should be burned at the stake. /rant=off We now return you to our regularly scheduled program . . . > Hotze wrote: > > > Anyway, lets call, e-mail, fax, walk up and talk to, etc. people at > > various companies and talk about tech support, etc. for old OLD products. > > There are a few companies that openly share information on any and all products > they've ever made. AST comes to mind most of all. You can call an 800 number to > access the touch tone system for Fax Facts and they send your fax machine > whatever data sheets you need, on their dime. > > On the other hand others, like ArtiSoft, are barely supporting the products > they're selling at presently without some sort of 900 number for what they call > support. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Russ Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ UIN #1714857 > AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 5 16:36:41 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? Message-ID: <199805052136.AA26443@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at May 5, 98 05:36:41 pm Message-ID: <9805052151.AA22148@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1250 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980505/9863d9fb/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue May 5 16:52:02 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? In-Reply-To: <9805052151.AA22148@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <13353329920.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Do you need to sysgen RSTS?] What if you want to load just specific drivers, or make your own devices or something? ------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue May 5 17:57:58 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? In-Reply-To: <13353329920.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at May 5, 98 02:52:02 pm Message-ID: <9805052157.AA28751@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980505/53af88ca/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue May 5 16:58:17 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? In-Reply-To: <9805052157.AA28751@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <13353331057.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [The Mentec license prevents you from doing anything useful...] Oh, OK. I thought they prevented you from doing anything COMMERCIAL. I retract my stupid question. ------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue May 5 17:09:42 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Get a life! Buy a PDP! Message-ID: <19980505220943.16055.qmail@hotmail.com> I know, I know, when I get a chance. For now; I found an Anderson-Jacobson 1200 BPS modem (AJ1256). Is there any thing special about it, or is it safe to throw this back? This was on the way to a thrift store. There I saw: TI-60 w/thermal printer for $10,working --fair? RCA Victor, couldn't tell if it worked, $75, no I won't buy it IBM PPS II ( I think) form printer - does anyone have any experience w/ this? I didn't buy any of the three, but I might get the TI-60. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue May 5 18:19:46 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? In-Reply-To: <13353331057.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at May 5, 98 02:58:17 pm Message-ID: <9805052219.AA21629@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1121 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980505/357d4dc9/attachment.ksh From go at ao.com Tue May 5 17:43:39 1998 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Request for CDC3300/3500 software Message-ID: <199805052243.PAA30203@office.ao.com> I'm "just about" finished with an emulator for a Control Data 3300 computer (you might ask "why" - I'll explain later.) But I'm looking for diagnostics tapes (instruction, floating point, mass storage, memory, etc.) Also, other operating systems would be interesting (I was dumb back in the 70's and didn't make copies of all my old stuff...) such as Master with MATS or MSOS or Realtime Scope. (I have no problem reading 7 track tapes.) I'm building this primarily to resurrect an obscure language, also developed at OSU, called "Oscar". It was a numerical person's dream interactive system for it's time (way before common graphics terminals, alas) including all sorts of large precision arith and rational number management (ratios of integral fractions) which made matrix manipulations a lot easier. Oscar ran under OS-3 and hence the need for the emulator. Besides, it's fun. (And I have source for damn near all of the OS-3 system, languages and tools (I was "with it" enough to make copies of those at least.) The original 3300 at OSU was "decommissioned" back in the early 80s, so this part is even "on topic!" It's a bit depressing (and humiliating) to see that my entirely-C-based emulator (i.e. NO assembler "optimization" on my part) runs at nearly the speed of the original machine on a lowly 66 mhz 486. (1.6us/cycle where instructions USUALLY took 2 cycles, for fetch and memory reference.) It'll probably scream on a reasonable Pentium-class system. (By inference will we be writing emulators in 15 to 20 years that emulate 400 mhz Pentiums and Power PCs at the full speed of day? Boggles the mind...) I'm emulating most CDC periphs (as far as I can without real "iron") so the emulator should handle virtual 604/607 tape drives, disk controllers, 501/512 printers, card readers, punches, etc. I realize this may be a bit "off topic" with respect to the other "mainstream" collectable computers (dec/hp/etc.) but, hey! it's what I learned on way back when. And the computer was far too large to ever think of "owning" one. For reference, the 3300 was a 3rd generation computer (no IC's - all Germanium transistors) with memory that came in chunks of 8k words (24 bits) all the way up to 256k words (LOTS of boxes.) Each 8k took half a 7 foot tall by 6 foot wide rack (IIRC). I think very late in life they had 32k modules... 24 bit ones-complement math with a "reasonable" two-state architecture (program/system mode) that actually worked (OSU's may have been the only one that really challenged it, though, running timesharing software on it.) Any and all software for the beast would be welcome. For reference, anything for the 3150, 3200, 3300 or 3500 would be welcome, as well as any CDC docs on these machines. I've got quite a few, but some of the more obscure controllers (3317 terminal control, for example) eluded me. Information on 3600 or 3800 (a sort of "48 bit word" 3300 and 3500) would also be welcome, as these two lines shared a lot of peripherals and controllers. And of course, assuming anyone else is as silly as me and wants to play with this mess, I'm happy to make the source/executables available (it's Linux based.) It's not "ready for prime time" yet, but soon... Thanks for sharing the bandwidth, Gary From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 5 17:14:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement In-Reply-To: <00a901bd7856$a73daec0$3767bcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at May 5, 98 09:50:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2428 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980505/3e2825cd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 5 17:24:05 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement In-Reply-To: <354F61D4.56FD09FB@bbtel.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at May 5, 98 02:00:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1662 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980505/05c768a8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 5 18:56:48 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement In-Reply-To: <199805052055.PAA21641@onyx.southwind.net> from "Jeff Kaneko" at May 5, 98 02:53:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1067 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980506/56bf6e0a/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Tue May 5 19:02:46 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: KMW Systems Corp. VP-10 Vector Processor Message-ID: Anybody ever heard of the following? KMW Systems Corp. VP-10 Vector Processor Its a smallish box (about the size of a small PC desktop box sliced horizontally in half). Anyone? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/03/98] From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue May 5 17:46:22 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Zenith Z90 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199805052347.SAA06729@onyx.southwind.net> > Plugged into the CPU board is a 16K RAM expansion card (obvious), a > triple RS232 port card (3 8250's) and a pair of disk controllers. One is > a hard-sectored controller using a sync serial chip and the other is a > double-density controller using a 1797. I've not figured out how they > connect to the single internal drive and the 2 external drives. The single internal drive plugs into the hard-sectored controller board. There should be a short ribbon cable from the drive to the board. The external drives should plug into a socket on the rear apron of the machine (unless they didn't install the plug; then you'll have to route the cable directly to the double-density controller board). I own an '89 myself, and they're pretty similar. It's been so long, I'm straining my synapses to remember the keypress to boot off of the external floppies. There is one keystroke that will cause the thing to boot from the internal drive. Make sure the fan blows really good, these suckers tend to overheat (I knew a guy who ran it with the cover off, with a *BIG* muffin fan pointed at the PSU). They also prefer filtered power-- we used to screw up alot of floppies before we got a SOLA . . . . Funny, you know last nite I was seriously thinking about resurrecting the 'ol H-89, now that I have the space to do so. . . . > That's pretty tight already, but there's more. There's a 3rd party > graphics board fitted on top of the CRT (seriously). It links into the > PSU/video cableform from the Terminal logic board to the monitor, and > also into 8 of the RAM chip sockets on the CPU board. The RAMs you pull > to plug in the cables go into the graphics board, which contains > _another_ 16K of RAM as a bitmapped display buffer. I dunno about this display board. There were a few graphix cards built for these. I have some old magazines that may yield a clue . . > I got some manuals with it. The most useful is a hardware reference > manual for the basic computer - schematics/parts lists/circuit > descriptions. Alas sheet 2 of the schematic is missing (it would show the > terminal logic board and keyboard, I guess), but the circuit description > is so complete that I could almost draw out the schematic from that > alone. No schematics of the disk controllers either. There's also a CP/M > manual/ disks and an HDOS manual set with disks. HDOS looks to be a > little like RT11 :-). Oh, volume 2 of the HDOS set contains ROM sources > for the H8, H88, H90, etc computers :-). I may be able to help with the FDC print, assuming it's H/Z standard issue (that's what I have). There were at least two other third-party DS/DD FDC's for it. Zenith docs are good, but configuring CP/M to work with the external 80-track drives can be a royal pain, unless Zenith was nice enough to supply a pre-configured floppy (mine was a Heathkit, so we had to do everything from scratch). Unfortunately, I know almost nothing about H-DOS, but I think I have some software for it hanging around here someplace. . . . Jeff From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 5 19:22:55 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Zenith Z90 In-Reply-To: <199805052347.SAA06729@onyx.southwind.net> from "Jeff Kaneko" at May 5, 98 04:46:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3491 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980506/3508a03a/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Tue May 5 19:25:37 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Request for CDC3300/3500 software In-Reply-To: <199805052243.PAA30203@office.ao.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 1998, Gary Oliver wrote: > I realize this may be a bit "off topic" with respect to the other > "mainstream" collectable computers (dec/hp/etc.) but, hey! it's > what I learned on way back when. And the computer was far too large > to ever think of "owning" one. Byte your tongue. Old iron is NEVER off-topic. Nobody ever said this discussion was only for "collectable" (whatever that means) computers. If you want to collect it, we want to discuss it. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/03/98] From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue May 5 19:45:55 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement Message-ID: <19980506004556.27627.qmail@hotmail.com> > >> >> Well, this kind of comes from a rant of mine... ya see, on my computer, I >> origionally had an AMD InterWave chip on my sound card, but found that it >> was STB made. It was made in Dec. 1996. I called about it in Dec. 1997, >> and NO ONE at their technical support knew ANYTHING about it. And that's a >> year after it was made!!! > >Don't get me started on Tech Support, or the lack of it. > >When I call Tech Support I will have made some attempts to check the >obvious, gather evidence, and solve the problem. In particular : > >I'll have checked the 'bleeding obvious' - that it's plugged in, that I > >I'll have read all available documentation, including, but not limited to >the user manual, tech/service manual (if available), schematics, data >sheets on the chips, command reference, processor instruction set, >language standards, etc as appropriate. > >I'll be sitting in front of my machine with a 'scope, logic analyser, >software debugger, etc at the ready > >Alas this seems to mean that I know more about the product than the >company that sold it to me. Tech support seems to consist of either >telling me to check I've inserted the disk correctly or reading the user >manual to me very, very slowly (I am not kidding...). I am fed up with You've got to be gentle w/tech support. For one thing, they're nothing more than figureheads for the company, also, they are treated fairly poorly, according to PC World. Most have no desire to spend 8 hours reading assembly listings. There's just no encouragement, like with teachers. In the end, they just get tired. >> Anyway, lets call, e-mail, fax, walk up and talk to, etc. people at >> various companies and talk about tech support, etc. for old OLD products. >> (Like calling up IBM... "Hello, I've got this 8" disk here, it was new in >> package, and it was not free of mechanical errors. I want my money back!") > >IBM are better than most, at least for providing parts/manuals. They may >claim that a machine never existed (IBM UK told be there was 'no such >thing as a PC-jr'), but they can often find all sorts of things given a >part number or forms number. > >> Or saying that we found a bug in the 4K MS tape basic, etc. ;-) > >Sending in bug reports (and even better, fixes) for ancient products is >great fun :-). Have you ever gotten a response? > >Agreed. C'mon d00dZ, 1've got \/\/1nd0ze 98 beta on ftp.aol.com/max/42342/!!! Let's get some c00l \/\/aReZ, Man! >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From gram at cnct.com Tue May 5 19:48:40 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer References: <9804058944.AA894414890@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <354FB368.EBB69AC3@cnct.com> Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > But in general, I agree with you both - analogue computers are often > small, simple and embedded, and they're a heck of a lot more common than Back before the Beatles broke up, I read a novel appropriate to my age at the time (I was slumming), one of the "Danny Dunn" series by Jay Williams, that very reasonably explained a household thermostat (one of the old style bi-metallic element types) as a simple computer. The book was probably titled _Danny Dunn and the Thinking Machine_, though at the moment I'm too tired to do the simple Web search that would verify (waitaminit, the Internet Speculative Fiction Database is bookmarked -- part is broken, they're remodeling again -- there it is) _Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine_ by Jay Williams and Raymond Abrashkin, published in 1958, not that long after digital won out over analog in the practical computing arena. At the time, I still owned a "DigiComp I" mechanical digital computer made out of plastic -- and I'd _love_ to own one again. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Tue May 5 20:00:05 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? References: <199805052136.AA26443@world.std.com> Message-ID: <354FB615.B4D51561@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > I didn't mention but RT-11 is NOT a memory hog and even a PDP-11 with > 16kw can run a useful system. Being a low fat OS it is also very fast > permitting even slow PDP-11 processors a chance to look good. It's > basic commands look just like PC dos. Not all that surprising, since Kildall based the CP/M commands and syntax on RT-11 and then Seattle Computers based QDOS (later PC then MS DOS) on CP/M. MSDOS didn't get fancy until somebody in that department started looking at what the kids doing the Xenix stuff had. And now there is no can large enough to put those worms back. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 5 19:56:22 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement In-Reply-To: <19980506004556.27627.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at May 5, 98 05:45:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1448 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980506/c7c12464/attachment.ksh From sethm at loomcom.com Tue May 5 20:45:40 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? In-Reply-To: <9805052219.AA21629@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at May 5, 98 03:19:46 pm Message-ID: <199805060145.SAA13963@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 831 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980505/3ff6ae5f/attachment.ksh From mor at crl.com Tue May 5 20:34:14 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Northstars up the wazoo Message-ID: <354FBE16.7A98A98@crl.com> Wow, anyone desparate for a Horizon should check out recent posts to comp.sys.northstar. No fewer than six systems from three different individuals have been offered there in the past couple of days. And some AFAIR are free for pick up or the cost of shipping. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 5 21:49:00 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer Message-ID: <199805060249.AA13954@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > >> The party agrees that unauthorized copying or disclosure will cause great > > >> damage to MICROSOFT." > > > > > >Hey! Let's all start copying Basic 80! Or other Microsoft stuff! > > >Perhaps we can cause great damage to Microsoft! > > > > > >Wait a bit... somehow I don't think we'll do any damage unless we > > >persuade people to buy our copies in preference to the originals. > > > > Oh? You know somewhere you can buy the originals? > > I've found some original sealed Microsoft CP/M software by frequenting > comp.os.cpm. None of the registration cards that I've sent in during > the past couple years have come back returned from any of Microsoft's > old Redmond/Seattle addresses, so I assume they found their way to > the right place (though I've never heard anything back from any bug > reports on CP/M products.) Speaking of sealed originals, I found some original still shrink-wrapped Osborne software today, with the original Byte Shop price stickers on them no less. They were basically some accounting packages by a company called Computronic that made software for the gamut of the machines of the era (TRS-80, Apple, Atari, Commodore, Xeroex, Osborne, Kaypro...that was the list of machines on the package). I also got a shrink-wrapped copy of WordStar circa 1981, a shrink-wrapped copy of Microsoft Multi-Tool Budget and a shrinkwrapped copy of Desktop Plan II by Visicorp. Vintage shrink-wrapped software is still out there, you just gotta look for it. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/03/98] From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue May 5 22:00:11 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement Message-ID: <9eb4263d.354fd23c@aol.com> In a message dated 98-05-05 22:56:32 EDT, you write: << Speaking of sealed originals, I found some original still shrink-wrapped Osborne software today, with the original Byte Shop price stickers on them no less. They were basically some accounting packages by a company called Computronic that made software for the gamut of the machines of the era (TRS-80, Apple, Atari, Commodore, Xeroex, Osborne, Kaypro...that was the list of machines on the package). I also got a shrink-wrapped copy of WordStar circa 1981, a shrink-wrapped copy of Microsoft Multi-Tool Budget and a shrinkwrapped copy of Desktop Plan II by Visicorp. Vintage shrink-wrapped software is still out there, you just gotta look for it. Sam >> i agree, my list is small, but i do have os2 1.1 which came in two seperate boxes wrapped together and includes sidekick 2.0 which i paid $3 for. i also got a never opened 1.3 which i did open just to look at but i never used, and several boxes of the ibm pc 3270 emulation program entry level version 1.22 david From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue May 5 21:31:01 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Zenith Z90 In-Reply-To: References: <199805052347.SAA06729@onyx.southwind.net> from "Jeff Kaneko" at May 5, 98 04:46:22 pm Message-ID: <199805060233.VAA15086@onyx.southwind.net> > > I dunno about this display board. There were a few graphix cards > > built for these. I have some old magazines that may yield a clue . . > > I found the installation instructions for this slipped inside one of the > other manuals. It is what I thought it was - and there's an extra switch > on the back of the machine (mounted in the '488' hole) to select > alphanumeric only, bitmapped only, or both. I can't remember the > maker/model numberm but it was made in England (Chew Magna, near > Bristol), so I doubt if you'll have info on that. Well ya never know. They published all sorts of things in the Sextant. > > I may be able to help with the FDC print, assuming it's H/Z standard > > issue (that's what I have). There were at least two other third-party > > It _is_ the Zentih board. On the other hand, tracing out the missing > schematics (terminal logic, the 2 disk controllers, the Siemens drive, > and the graphics board) won't take _too_ long - they're not complicated > and I have a lot of clues about how they work (like block diagrams, > circuit descriptions, data on all the chips, etc). I'm pretty sure I have the print(s), then. I'll check archives . . . > I would claim 'Zenith docs are excellent', based on what I've already got! Yeah, they were on the ball, weren't they? Zenith owed this to their Heathkit roots. > I _think_ I have all 40 track drives.... The Siemens drive is definitely 40 track, but if the external drives are in a Zenith cabinet, then take a look inside. If they're CDC drives, they're most likely 80-track. If they're Tandon, Shugart or MPI, then most likely 40 track. I forgot to mention, if the machine and won't always boot from the Siemens drive reliably, you may have to adjust the spindle rotation speed of the drive. There is a special program you run and a procedure in the manual to do this. Shouldn't be needed though, it's usually a set 'n ferget deal. -- Jeff From dastar at wco.com Tue May 5 22:12:11 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Panasonic Senior Partner Message-ID: Well, I scored a Panasonic Senior Partner (IBM-compatible luggable) with a 20meg HD. No matter what the product, I always like what Panasonic manufactures. The design and (physical) user interface of stuff they make just works for me. Anyway, this one came complete with Rogue, Nethack and Mahjong installed. I just enjoyed a splendid game of Rogue which I haven't played in ages (made it to Level 8, Warrior with about 2500 gold). It also had some C code, some unix utils in C:\BIN and a file pertaining to Apollo workstations. Seems this machine used to be owned by a Unix hacker for sure. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/03/98] From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue May 5 23:05:03 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement Message-ID: <00ca01bd78a4$72045c60$3767bcc1@hotze> >Oh, I'll be gentle with them, and polite, at least to start with. But >when _I'm_ paying for the call (often at a premium rate), or even worse >am paying for so-called tech support, I expect a little more than a >person who treats me like somebody who can't even read. In other words I >expect _technical_ support on the product that they supplied me with. Exactly. I also expect if the technical support is not via phone (IE from e-mail, web based, etc.) to get a timely answer. With my old soundcard, it was 3 months, by which time I'd gotten so fed up I'd figured it out anyway. Now I use a real Sound Blaster AWE 64. I like the cool sound. >> Have you ever gotten a response? > >Other than the obvious 'we don't support that any more' or 'A bug in a 20 >year product, you must be mad to expect us to do anything about it', no, >not really. Well, yeah, but if you're lucky and get the right people... Or if you say that it had a "lifetime warranty." Tim D. Hotze From dastar at wco.com Wed May 6 01:13:19 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Prototype Apple //c found Message-ID: Of course everything I've dragged home in the last few months simply pales in comparison to the prototype Apple //c I brought home today. I was on my way back to work in the early afternoon and was trying to decide if I should stop at my favorite thrift store on the way which would put me in traffic, or if I should cut across the hills to get back quicker. I thought to myself that there may just be something at the thrift store that would make the trip worth it, so the thoughts of finding something cool won over my need to get back to the office. This is one case where I'm glad I let my irrational urges get the best of me. The first thing I saw when I got to the electronics section was an Apple //c, and I thought to myself, "Hmmm...do I want another //c?" (since I have like 3 already). But when I picked it up I noticed something strange about it. The case was smooth instead of having the normal texture. I flipped it over and noticed there was a small green sticker on the bottom instead of the normal grey one with the Apple //c wording and part numbers, etc. The sticker read "Apple Computer Inc., PCSD MFG, 3087 North First Street, San Jose, CA 95134" then the words "Prototype" and "Test Equipment" with check boxes next to each. "Prototype" was checked off. Of course phrases like "holy shit" went through my head. The label also had a serial number of "P1160" and at the bottom was "WARNING: PROPRIETARY PRODUCT". Now this was too cool for words to describe (<--- isn't that deliciously nerdy?) When I got home I opened it up along with a regular production //c and started comparing the motherboards of the two. There were several minor differences. Some silkscreen lettering was different and there were a couple minor component changes, but nothing significant and for the most part the board layout was identical. I pulled out the power supply on the prototype and the production model which unveiled the following: Prototype Production --------- ---------- TERI MAIN LOGIC MAIN LOGIC 820-0115-0 820-0115-C (c) 1983 APPLE COMPUTER APPLE COMPUTER (c) 1983 Was "TERI" the codename for the Apple //c? A couple other interesting differences: on the prototype, there was a small board with the labeling "Apple Computer Network SKA156-00" in the place near the serial port where on the production model is a simple transistor pack. The "network" board simply has transistors on it. Also, at location C19 on the proto is a 74LS161 whereas on the production there is a 1.8432 Mhz crystal. On the proto, the CHAR GEN EPROM is socketed and the system ROM is an EPROM with a sticker which has "v1.0 5/19 5F85" written on it. Lastly, for the motherboard product number (all Apple components have a product number in the form of xxx-xxxx-x) the proto had 6xx-xxxx-whereas the production has 612-0128-E. Oh yeah, the proto had a spider living in the connector of the power supply. Spiders find the stupidest places to spin their web. What the hell did he expect to come crawling through there!? I was just going to flick him off into the room but if my wife found him a couple days from now she would've fainted, so I did away with the poor little sucker. R.I.P. Here's where you envious types shoot yourself: I paid $2.98 for it. :) I've found some of the best stuff in thrift stores, but this beats all. It will be proudly displayed right next to my prototype Apple //gs at the next Vintage Computer Festival. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/03/98] From yowza at yowza.com Wed May 6 01:50:36 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Prototype Apple //c found In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Of course everything I've dragged home in the last few months simply pales > in comparison to the prototype Apple //c I brought home today. Lucky dawg! > I've found some of the best stuff in thrift stores, but this beats all. I find almost *nothing* in the few Silicon Valley thrifts I've been to, and I know they must get a zillion donated computers. I suspect the larger thrifts have organized thugs that grab anything that looks like a computer and sell it themselves. Was this a no-name thrift you found this thing in? -- Doug From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed May 6 08:15:52 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer Message-ID: <9804068944.AA894485763@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > > Not a valid concept. both OR and AND gates can be done using totally > non amplifying devices (diodes). What's that got to do with it? Diodes are analogue parts - the output (current) is a continuous function of the input (voltage), not a discrete one (to me the difference between an analogue and a digital component). In fact, Allison, you were saying only a few days ago that you don't need any amplification to make an analogue _computer_ (with which I agree - although some of your examples I wouldn't call computers). > It was Vonda that postulated that digital was analogue with a precision > of two states, true and false. The realm of analogue is one of infinite > precision but possibly of limited accuracy. The digital realm is one of > limited precision and absolute accuracy. That is an excellent concept. Thank you - I'll remember that. For non-electronic digital computers, where do Facit mechanical calculators lie? I have one (which is driven by an electric motor but could conceivably use any motor) which has algorithms for optimised decimal multiplication and non-restoring decimal division. It is not programmable, but it is pretty complex - and all done mechanically. For pneumatic computers, I think some pipe organs of the turn of the century came close - you could program some buttons to set various combinations of ranks for fast selection during performance. However, the more complicated schemes of this nature (popular around 1920) used electrical as well as pneumatic logic elements. Philip. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 6 07:30:46 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? In-Reply-To: "Daniel A. Seagraves" "Re: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone?" (May 5, 11:37) References: <13353294432.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <9805061330.ZM8152@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 5, 11:37, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > [Adding RX50 to the Supnik emulator...] > > Yeah, it'd be a Lot Of Work(tm). It certainly would. Even the RT-11 driver (which is about the simplest I've seen) is fairly complex. > Those talk MSCP, and there's little/no documentation on how it works. > (I think...) It's basically a message-passing protocol, unlike most of the earlier DEC disk stuff where you can poke the hardware registers to "make things happen". To oversimplify, with MSCP you make a message containing instructions, put it in a memory buffer somewhere, tell the controller it's there, and it does the rest with DMA, returning a response message. The relevant documentation is "MSCP Basic Disk Functions Manual", AA-L619A-TK, and "Storage System Diagnostics And Utility Protocol", AA-L620A-TK, which in turn are parts of the UDA50 Programmer's Documentation Kit (QP-905-GZ). My copy is version 1.2, April 1982. It's not good bedtime reading; the plot's a bit too convoluted and the characterisation is weak :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science [remove indy. from email address to reply] University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 6 08:57:51 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer Message-ID: <199805061357.AA08980@world.std.com> | | | | V --- input === diode --- | | --------------------+------> This is an analogue function, take a shot at the equation it solves. I understand the economic logic of no longer supporting products that aren't being sold (aren't making money) and that are deemed obsolete by being two generations behind today's products. But at that point, the company has decided that any ill will caused by this decision isn't worth the cost or aggravation of continued support. Certainly some companies turn over continued support to third parties - when the third party thinks there's some money in it. But what about a non-profit organization for products that absolutely no one wants to support? Just send them the docs and let them archive them. Companies donate old office equipment to good causes, why not old docs or source code? - John Jefferson Computer Museum From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Wed May 6 10:55:11 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980506092520.00b47930@pc> Message-ID: <199805061531.KAA16927@onyx.southwind.net> You know, this idea makes sense. But have a feeling that most product managers (the guys most in the position to make these decisions) are so far removed from the product, so intimidated by the almighty 'Company Policy (tm)', (not to mention hair being way, way too pointy) that even this will not get consideration. Just my $0.02 > I understand the economic logic of no longer supporting products > that aren't being sold (aren't making money) and that are deemed > obsolete by being two generations behind today's products. But > at that point, the company has decided that any ill will caused > by this decision isn't worth the cost or aggravation of continued > support. Certainly some companies turn over continued support > to third parties - when the third party thinks there's some money > in it. But what about a non-profit organization for products that > absolutely no one wants to support? Just send them the docs > and let them archive them. Companies donate old office equipment > to good causes, why not old docs or source code? > > - John > Jefferson Computer Museum > > From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed May 6 12:03:39 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer Message-ID: <9804068944.AA894499437@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Allison quoted me as having written: > <(current) is a continuous function of the input (voltage), not a > > Yes, but they don't (generally) amplify. I think you may be confusing my remark with Tony's. I remarked that "all circuits are amplifiers" meaning that the general circuit can be modelled as taking an input, applying some sort of gain, and producing an output. A gross oversimplification, but I wasn't talking about the active/passive issue (gain>1 => active, etc.) Tony made a slightly different remark, "Digital circuits are built with analogue parts". Unlike mine, this is not an oversimplification, it is absolutely true. And has nothing to do with amplifiers. You can build a digital circuit element with diodes; they are analogue parts, and they don't amplify. Clear now? > > I still hold that amplification is a factor in the equation that an analog > function may contain but it is not required. I never (intensionally) disputed this! > This is an analogue function, take a shot at the equation it solves. I couldn't quite read your diagram, I'm afraid. Was it series capacitor followed by shunt diode? Looks like it refers the input to the lowest value it (the input) ever takes, rather than to ground or a fixed reference. > > Computers, mechanical, fixed program. Roughly what I thought. I wasn't sure whether people would class it as a computer, but I think it is no less of one than a 4-function pocket calculator. [pneumatics] > You've not seen a modern production line that uses air logic. I've worked No. I've seen some of the components in catalogues, though, and wondered if they'd be of use in organ building, though! > on one that was used to produce pharaceuticals that were in flamable bases > (ethanol). There was some fairly complex logic in that system. Working Sounds fun! > with it is like designing with relays. I can imagine. Philip. From ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu Wed May 6 11:10:23 1998 From: ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Prototype Apple //c found In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > When I got home I opened it up along with a regular production //c and > started comparing the motherboards of the two. There were several minor > differences. Some silkscreen lettering was different and there were a > couple minor component changes, but nothing significant and for the most > part the board layout was identical. The IIc prototype that I have must be a later revision, since it has a mask-programmed character ROM (that is marked as a prototype) instead of the EPROM that is in your machine. It has been a while since I've had it apart, but I seem to remember seeing several other (non-ROM) ICs that were labeled as prototypes, as well. I'll open it up again and take a look. If anyone is interested, there is a fuzzy picture of this machine on my (currently content-poor) collection web site, at http://xtal.pharm.nwu.edu/~ware/collection/machines/a2cproto.html -- Scott Ware ware@xtal.pharm.nwu.edu From cfandt at servtech.com Wed May 6 11:08:01 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Request for CDC3300/3500 software In-Reply-To: References: <199805052243.PAA30203@office.ao.com> Message-ID: <199805061613.QAA27302@cyber2.servtech.com> At 17:25 05-05-98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: >On Tue, 5 May 1998, Gary Oliver wrote: >> I realize this may be a bit "off topic" with respect to the other >> "mainstream" collectable computers (dec/hp/etc.) but, hey! it's >> what I learned on way back when. And the computer was far too large >> to ever think of "owning" one. > >Byte your tongue. Old iron is NEVER off-topic. Nobody ever said this >discussion was only for "collectable" (whatever that means) computers. If >you want to collect it, we want to discuss it. Yes, by golly, a subject like this is *never* off topic! How many folks out there actually used any of those machines Gary worked with? Rather, how many could use or learn to use one today? There's probably a few who would like to, myself included. This is a project that works at preseving the "essence" of a long defunct machine. Depending upon Gary's user interface he includes with his emulator, a person could vicariously "operate" one of these CDCs without having the good ole iron itself setting nearby. That is a method to preserve and teach a part of the history of computers which we all could never actually experience today or especially into the future. Any of these CDC models in service or in a collection today? Maybe not, so this is an important effort to preserve the software of the machine for all of us who are interested to experience the feel of working on a real classic CDC machine. -- Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Wed May 6 11:14:31 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? In-Reply-To: <199805052136.AA26443@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at May 5, 98 05:36:41 pm Message-ID: <199805061614.MAA10052@shell.monmouth.com> > > > > Rt-11 does not require sysgening like RSX or RSTS So just the binaries of > the standard monitors (SJ, FB, XM and BJ) and the standard drivers > is all that's needed to use it effectively. Yup. But v4.x and the 5 that I have require sysgen to do system job support and mutiple ttys. (I loved running RTmon on a spare VT100 in a corner). I've been unable to sysgen v5.01C (I think that's my copy on the pro) because IND traps to 10... I'm going to disassemble ind.sav one day. Bill From cfandt at servtech.com Wed May 6 11:11:22 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: Zenith Z90 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199805061617.QAA27387@cyber2.servtech.com> At 19:23 05-05-98 +0100, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >I am now the proud (?) owner of a Zenith Z90 computer, and I wonder >if anyone else knows anything about it. It's an all-in-one desktop >computer, about the size of a VT52 terminal. I've had experience with most of the Heath/Zenith 8-bit machines. I have an H-8 and an H-89 (which actually is the good ole Heathkit version of your Z90). The Z90 was a Zenith Data Systems-branded machine which is Heath factory-built. It had a bit different setup than the factory-built or kit versions bought from Heath (the H-89). Don't quite know what those differences were though, but the H-89 and Z-90 were still very similar. Still have the equipment, most all docs, H-8 and H/Z-89-related magazines, etc. but memory fading from lack of use of it the past five or seven years :( Same goes for my H/Z-100 and H-8 machines. The H/Z-100, incidentally, could be considered Heath/Zenith's answer to the transition from a CP/M world to the then-new Messy-DOS world. Had an 8-bit 8085 running CP/M-85 and a 5 MHz 8088 running M$DOS version 1.25. Expansion bus containing floppy/hard disk and video cards is S100. Was well-respected and somewhat revolutionary for its time. Kinda pricey when new. US military bought several thousand. Mine has the later third-party IBM PC compatible conversion boards and 30 meg HDD and 768K RAM modification. H/Z-89/90 enclosure actually is the H/Z-19 terminal Heath designed in '79 or so to replace the H-9. Does actually fully emulate the VT52 when put in that mode. You can disconnect the serial cable to the Z90 Mainboard and use it as an H/Z-19 or VT52 if you need a terminal in an emergency. > >It's _very_ tightly packed inside. I've not pulled it to bits yet (not >enough time), but it seems to contain > >A Terminal Logic Board (probably a Z-19 or similar) which contains a Z80, >6845, RAM, ROMs, TTL, etc. This talks to the keyboard (just a matrix of >switches) and the video driver board (essentially a monitor) in the base >of the machine > >The Terminal board talks to the main CPU board via a serial link. The CPU >board contains another Z80, 48K RAM (but see below...), ROMs, etc. > >Plugged into the CPU board is a 16K RAM expansion card (obvious), a >triple RS232 port card (3 8250's) and a pair of disk controllers. One is >a hard-sectored controller using a sync serial chip and the other is a >double-density controller using a 1797. I've not figured out how they >connect to the single internal drive and the 2 external drives. Are the floppy drive cables disconnected Tony? > >That's pretty tight already, but there's more. There's a 3rd party >graphics board fitted on top of the CRT (seriously). It links into the Vaguely recall a 3rd party graphics board. Can you see a name, etc. on it?? I may be able to lookup an old advertisement or something for you on it. >PSU/video cableform from the Terminal logic board to the monitor, and >also into 8 of the RAM chip sockets on the CPU board. The RAMs you pull >to plug in the cables go into the graphics board, which contains >_another_ 16K of RAM as a bitmapped display buffer. > >I got some manuals with it. The most useful is a hardware reference >manual for the basic computer - schematics/parts lists/circuit >descriptions. Alas sheet 2 of the schematic is missing (it would show the I think I could help you on this if I can find my library of H/Z-89 docs. We just moved into a new house you know, so I have to determine just which box it is! >terminal logic board and keyboard, I guess), but the circuit description >is so complete that I could almost draw out the schematic from that >alone. No schematics of the disk controllers either. There's also a CP/M Love the VERY thorough manuals Heath Corp wrote. Generally agreed amongst the electronic collecting community that there is nothing like them from anybody else. So, up until the early 90's or so, when Groupe Bull bought Zenith Data Systems, Zenith's manuals and some hardware features on their computers had been top-notch as a result of Heath's engineering. Not so after Bull took over. >manual/ disks and an HDOS manual set with disks. HDOS looks to be a >little like RT11 :-). Oh, volume 2 of the HDOS set contains ROM sources >for the H8, H88, H90, etc computers :-). I think it was sort of based on RT11. Somebody either here or on the Heath list mentioned that. You see, around the time the 8080-based H-8 was introduced, Heath had already (or just about to) released the H11 which is an LSI-11 based machine. It used a DEC CPU board and a modified RT11 OS called HT11 which was distributed on paper tape. Later just RT11 itself IIRC was distributed. RX01 drives came along too. I haven't used HDOS (the Heath-written OS for the H-8) much at all but I *think* some of the functions look like RT11 too. Gotta check that more. I've got a couple of H11 systems which I need to restore. Need a decent DEC OS on RX01's first as they came with no disks :( (Suggestions anybody?) > >Does anyone know this machine? Any hints/tips on getting it working again >(assuming it doesn't...) I can help some Tony, and I think there's others here who have some Heath/Zenith 8-bitters. Send a private email if you want to discuss any details (unless if of course you feel the group would be interested, then post here). > >-tony > Have fun with it, Chris -- -- ======================================================= Christian R. Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian 31 Houston Avenue, WE Phone: +716-488-1722 -Home Jamestown, New York +716-661-1832 -Office 14701-2627 USA Fax: +716-661-1888 -Office fax email: cfandt@servtech.com Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed May 6 11:15:03 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: RSTS/E v8.0-07 filesystem limitations. Message-ID: <13353530719.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Is there a limit to how big a RSTS filesystem can be? I'm told 8.0-07 doesn't support RA92s. But the fact that INIT knows what it is tells me otherwise. All I have to do is find the CMP instruction stopping me from formatting this disk and off we go. The question is, is the RSTS filesystem used in 8.0-07 able to handle a drive this size? Is there some filesystem-induced wall I'm about to walk into? ------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed May 6 12:35:59 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: RSTS/E v8.0-07 filesystem limitations. In-Reply-To: <13353530719.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at May 6, 98 09:15:03 am Message-ID: <9805061635.AA19562@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1491 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980506/d4b6a3f1/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed May 6 12:37:28 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? In-Reply-To: <199805061614.MAA10052@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at May 6, 98 12:14:31 pm Message-ID: <9805061637.AA22233@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 160 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980506/90fe4230/attachment.ksh From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Wed May 6 11:42:12 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:42 2005 Subject: RSTS/E v8.0-07 filesystem limitations. In-Reply-To: <9805061635.AA19562@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at May 6, 98 09:35:59 am Message-ID: <199805061642.MAA22568@shell.monmouth.com> > Am I giving anyone else the impression that I consider RSTS/E to be a royal > pain in the rear end? > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > Yeah, but it was soooo sweet to use on an 11/70 with RP06's. (Too bad I don't have the power/space for the 11/70 and RP06's...) +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From chemif at mbox.queen.it Wed May 6 14:45:07 1998 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (RICCARDO) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <199805061945.VAA26562@mbox.queen.it> At 03:56 29/04/98 -0400, you wrote: >Believe it or not, I think there *was* a "Lemon" Apple clone. My father >and I still occasionally joke about it. And we didn't get it from BYTE. True! Here in Italy there was a manufacturer that called theyr Apple clones "LEMON". ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONES ? ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? ? Pager(DTMF PHONES)=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? ? where*=asterisk key |4 help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? ? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed May 6 15:06:33 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: What's an Emulex TC12? Message-ID: <13353572862.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Just dug one out of the board pile. What is it? Is it a 9-track controller? (Please, oh please...) ------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 6 16:41:05 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: <199805061945.VAA26562@mbox.queen.it> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980506164105.43dfcd76@intellistar.net> At 09:45 PM 5/6/98 +0200, Riccardo wrote: >At 03:56 29/04/98 -0400, someone else wrote: > >>Believe it or not, I think there *was* a "Lemon" Apple clone. My father >>and I still occasionally joke about it. And we didn't get it from BYTE. > >True! >Here in Italy there was a manufacturer that called theyr Apple clones "LEMON". Obviously, "Lemon" doesn't have the same conatation there that it does here in the US! Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 6 13:47:32 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Zenith Z90 In-Reply-To: <199805061617.QAA27387@cyber2.servtech.com> from "Christian Fandt" at May 6, 98 12:11:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3271 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980506/853a46b1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 6 13:36:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980506092520.00b47930@pc> from "John Foust" at May 6, 98 09:25:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980506/85576672/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 6 13:32:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement In-Reply-To: <00ca01bd78a4$72045c60$3767bcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at May 6, 98 07:05:03 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 781 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980506/299f70ea/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 6 13:20:48 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer In-Reply-To: <199805060249.AA13954@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at May 5, 98 10:49:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2504 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980506/acfbbb04/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 6 13:12:42 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Zenith Z90 In-Reply-To: <199805060233.VAA15086@onyx.southwind.net> from "Jeff Kaneko" at May 5, 98 08:31:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2299 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980506/f60a69bb/attachment.ksh From bill_r at inetnebr.com Wed May 6 18:32:47 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Serendipity Message-ID: <3585f046.1043390335@hoser> I was at the scrap yard yesterday, picking up some aluminum blocks to play with on my new CNC milling machine, and decided to take a stroll out where they occasionally dump old mainframe parts. It's just this huge mud lot about 2 blocks square, with big mounds of twisted metal, wire, cable, crushed cars, and all kinds of other junk, with a bunch of bits of electronics thrown in more or less at random. I wasn't in the mood for a lot of climbing, so I just poked around the edges. I found a board about 18" square sitting on top of a barrel. When I picked it up, it was *way* too heavy for the size. Flipped it over and saw another, smaller board screwed to the bottom. It was marked "DataRAM". I thought "Oh no - surely not. It can't be core memory! But it's so *heavy*! What is it?" I took it along. I also found an old controller module of some kind with an RCA 1802 and support chips on it; now maybe I can finally build a real Elf. Anyway, they sell everything by the pound, and the two pieces cost me about $2. Brought it home, removed all the screws around the edge, pulled off the smaller board, and guess what? Acres of core! Tiny little ones, too - I haven't seen that much core, but the other small piece I have has cores with a center hole about the size of a pencil lead. These were so small they looked like grains of sand, or salt. Had to use a 12x magnifier to see them clearly. By my count, there are about 100 per inch in both directions, and it's about 8"x10", with a few gaps here and there, so this gives... ummm... (square root of 7, carry the 9...) uh... something under 800k-bits or so? Does this sound right? Anyway, I was pretty pumped. I may go back and do some serious climbing and burrowing this weekend... -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed May 6 19:58:17 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: What's an Emulex TC12? In-Reply-To: <13353572862.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at May 6, 98 01:06:33 pm Message-ID: <9805062358.AA02841@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 244 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980506/9070be57/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed May 6 19:59:48 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 6, 98 07:32:16 pm Message-ID: <9805062359.AA18499@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 361 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980506/4e2b28bd/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Wed May 6 19:03:42 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > Well, I'm sure we all think that would be a Good Thing, but just try > convincing companies of that. > > IMHO, somebody should pass a law that says 'If a company refuses to > support a product, all documentation (schematics, sources, etc) should be > made available to owners of said product (or anyone :-))'. And with stiff > penalties for companies who loose documentation. It would be a lot more > use than some of the silly laws we have these days. > > Alas none of us are in a position to pass laws... > > -tony At least not with an attitude like that. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/03/98] From mor at crl.com Wed May 6 18:09:49 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Serendipity References: <3585f046.1043390335@hoser> Message-ID: <3550EDBD.46084A41@crl.com> Bill Richman wrote: > > I was at the scrap yard yesterday, picking up some aluminum blocks to > play with on my new CNC milling machine, and decided to take a stroll > out where they occasionally dump old mainframe parts. Well I can't quite match this tale of finding core memory at a junkyard, but I did stop by a place exactly like you described a few weeks ago and found 3 working CompuPro System 8/16s, 2 working Televideo 925s, several external 8" drive boxes (4 FD and 2 HD) and assorted S-100 boards (256K RAM, dual-processor, lots of neato things). Everything just strewn about and comingling with car wreckage over a quarter of an acre area... By the pound, 60 bucks. Don't just drive past those places--stop in and say, "Hiya!" -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From dastar at wco.com Wed May 6 19:10:43 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > I think a computer needs to have some kind of 'program' which is > sequenced in some way, and also conditional branching. That _might_ be > enough. And I can't think of many non-electronic systems which meet that > definition, although it's obviously possible to make one with the > hydraulic/pneumatic gates/flip-flops. I think Tony just defined the distinction between a simple circuit and a computer. A computer can act on logic that allows it to conditionally branch. I'd add that a computer's function can be changed without physically altering the computer (stored program). There's a fine distinction between a circuit and a computer and when a circuit becomes a computer. I for one would not consider a filter to be a computer despite all the good arguments made here. If I wasn't in sound bite mode I'd try to elaborate on my opinions. Perhaps another time, or when somebody responds to this message disputing my definition and challenges me to do some meaningful research :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/03/98] From kyrrin at jps.net Wed May 6 19:18:39 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: FW: FREE PDP-11/84's -- in Scotland! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3554fd9c.264590000@smtp.jps.net> Here's a twist. Anyone in or near Scotland care to take a stab at this rescue? Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On Wed, 6 May 1998 22:34:19 +0100, in vmsnet.pdp-11 you wrote: >>From: Ian A McDonald >>Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 >>Subject: PDP-11/84's going free >>Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 22:34:19 +0100 >>Organization: St. Andrews University >>Lines: 23 >>Message-ID: >>NNTP-Posting-Host: maths.st-and.ac.uk >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >>NNTP-Posting-User: iam >>X-Sender: iam@st-andrews.ac.uk >>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!194.72.7.126!btnet-peer!btnet!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!st-and!maths!iam >> >>St. Andrews, Fife, Scotland >> >>2 off pdp-11/84 2mb >>Processors fine, >>disks dead, >> >>free to anyone who cares enough to save them from the skip. >>I know little about their internals, but we've been ordered to skip them. >>I'm hoping for a good home for them. >>Unfortunately, it's a buyer collect deal, but we're asking no money. >> >>-- >>Ian >> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>Oh, God is playing marbles, >>With His Planets and his Stars, 1084 New Hall, >>Creating havoc through my life, St Andrews, >>With his influence on Mars ... Fife, >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin {at} j

s d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From kyrrin at jps.net Wed May 6 19:20:11 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: FW: PDP-11/73 in NJ available In-Reply-To: <1998050401492500.VAA29644@ladder01.news.aol.com> References: <1998050401492500.VAA29644@ladder01.news.aol.com> Message-ID: <3555fdec.264669775@smtp.jps.net> I have no clue what this guy considers a 'serious' offer. Maybe someone on the list can 'offer' to haul it away...? ;-) Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On 04 May 1998 01:49:25 GMT, in vmsnet.pdp-11 you wrote: >>From: rmweiss@aol.com (RMWeiss) >>Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 >>Subject: pdp11/73 for sale-fully functioning >>Lines: 6 >>Message-ID: <1998050401492500.VAA29644@ladder01.news.aol.com> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com >>X-Admin: news@aol.com >>Date: 04 May 1998 01:49:25 GMT >>Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com >>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news.burgoyne.com!news.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >> >>located in New Jersey, very recently retired system. stand alone case, 1meg >>mem,160 meg Fujitsu drive, tape backup, peripherals, etc. Please address any >>serious offers and questions to Ronny at RMWeiss@aol.com or call (800) 526-3192 >>M-F 9-5 EDT. >>Thanks for your interest. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin {at} j

s d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From fauradon at pclink.com Wed May 6 20:13:14 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Zenith Z90 Message-ID: <001701bd7955$5087cca0$0b020bce@fauradon> Well I'll be darned! I read those post wondering what the diference was between a Z90 and a Zenith Z89 (Which is what I thought is what I had) just to finally discover that I don't have a Z89 at all. Better change that entry in the web site. Now I'm going to have to check all my machines and make sure I have all the model numbers right :) . Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon >Z90). The Z90 was a Zenith Data Systems-branded machine which is Heath >factory-built. It had a bit different setup than the factory-built or kit >versions bought from Heath (the H-89). Don't quite know what those >differences were though, but the H-89 and Z-90 were still very similar. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 6 19:58:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Serendipity In-Reply-To: <3585f046.1043390335@hoser> from "Bill Richman" at May 6, 98 11:32:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 545 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980507/2b93f228/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 6 20:02:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 6, 98 05:10:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1590 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980507/b4e72404/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 6 20:06:04 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement In-Reply-To: <9805062359.AA18499@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at May 6, 98 04:59:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 751 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980507/570e569e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 6 20:34:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Zenith Z90 In-Reply-To: <001701bd7955$5087cca0$0b020bce@fauradon> from "Francois" at May 6, 98 08:13:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1234 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980507/d17b4e7c/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 6 20:42:58 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: What's an Emulex TC12? In-Reply-To: "Daniel A. Seagraves" "What's an Emulex TC12?" (May 6, 13:06) References: <13353572862.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <9805070242.ZM840@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 6, 13:06, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Subject: What's an Emulex TC12? > Just dug one out of the board pile. > What is it? > Is it a 9-track controller? (Please, oh please...) I think so; I expect it's the Unibus equivalent of my QBus TC02. I've got the manual if you need to ask about it. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed May 6 21:01:17 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: What's an Emulex TC12? In-Reply-To: <9805062358.AA02841@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <13353637440.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Allright! Just what I was after! Now, I may get to use that RSTS tape! ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed May 6 21:07:00 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: What's an Emulex TC12? In-Reply-To: <13353637440.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <13353638481.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Oh yeah, anyone care to post the jumper info for this? I already got a Pertec Formatted drive to use... ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed May 6 21:25:24 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Here's 2 morde boards to ID... Message-ID: <13353641830.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Wow, the lag is terrible! (FTping something...) Anyway, what are the: EMULEX SC03 Dilog CQ2010 ------- From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed May 6 21:35:38 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Low-end Unix (was: TI99: Anyone reading this with a TI-99/4A?) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980506181843.3f4f29da@ricochet.net> At 02:12 PM 5/3/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Your knowledge is limited. Unix was started and lived for years on >PDP-11s (a 16 bit machine) in the form of V5, V6, V7 and 2.9BSD and >2.11BSD. I may add it was on other machines like the Interdatas. I have heard tell (from a very reliable source) of a version of Unix written for the Radio Shack Model 100 (8085, 32K max). (And no, it's not available, and yes, he's tried to get the company that did it to release it.) I thought someone had said that CP/M was based on Unix? Or was that one of the PDP opsys? >I find the idea of not less than 32bits, 200mhz cpus and large memory >being a must to be patently retrorevisionist to the history of what was >done before those things were available. Yep. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed May 6 21:35:44 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980506185017.3f4f26b2@ricochet.net> At 11:14 PM 5/5/98 +0100, you wrote: >When I call Tech Support I will have made some attempts to check the >obvious, gather evidence, and solve the problem. In particular : > >I'll have checked the 'bleeding obvious' - that it's plugged in, that I >am running the program I think I am running, etc Ah, but you are (especially for mainstream stuff) reasonably rare. The average I-bought-my-computer-at-circuit-city-and-got-a-free-hair-dryer idiot has done none of that. Most likely, he's tripped over the power cord and unplugged it, or tried to install a pirated game that had a virus and his hd is toast or... Which does, I agree, present a problem for those of us who *do* know what we're doing. There's nothing I hate more than having some nitwit read the manual to me. (Unless, of course, I'm calling because I don't have the manual.) Dunno if there's a solution. I try to find a knowledgeable support person for software/hardware I use a lot and make sure they know who I am and that I'm not a git. >I'll be sitting in front of my machine with a 'scope, logic analyser, >software debugger, etc at the ready "you're out there, man, like f***ing pluto." 8^) >IBM are better than most, at least for providing parts/manuals. They may >claim that a machine never existed (IBM UK told be there was 'no such >thing as a PC-jr'), but they can often find all sorts of things given a >part number or forms number. IBM does seem to be pretty good. I requested info about a couple of "PC-Radio's" I picked up, and got back a lot of info (albeit badly formatted. 8^) >Sending in bug reports (and even better, fixes) for ancient products is >great fun :-). I would think calling would be better still. 8^) >> And DON'T COPY ANY SOFTWARE. I don't even care if it was made by a >> criminal, it gives you no right to do the same. Yep. Fastest way to put a company out of business is to steal their product. Hmmm... Anyone want a copy of Microsoft Office? 8^) (JUST KIDDING!!!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From fmc at reanimators.org Wed May 6 23:48:14 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Prototype Apple //c found In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Tue, 5 May 1998 23:13:19 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199805070448.VAA29351@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > Was "TERI" the codename for the Apple //c? Moby. At least that's what I get from this book I got turned onto: _AppleDesign: The Work of the Apple Industrial Design Group_, by Paul Kunkel, photos by Rick English, ISBN 1-888001-25-9, published by Graphis, 1997. Mini-review: |<00|_ pictures of computers and concept models and other things. Emphasis is on industrial design, not technology. The text is marred by typos and an overall feeling that the author thinks Apple and those responsible are just too cool for words. Maybe they are. Or maybe it's just that I've had enough of dealing with PC-contemptibles with funny disk-drive rails and the like that I'm not real tolerant of k00l kasewerk any more. They sure are pretty pictures, though.... -Frank McConnell From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Thu May 7 00:50:02 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Low-end Unix (was: TI99: Anyone reading this with a TI-99/4A?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980506181843.3f4f29da@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199805070550.PAA24705@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 09:35 PM 06-05-98 -0500, Uncle Roger wrote: >At 02:12 PM 5/3/98 -0400, you wrote: >>>> >>Your knowledge is limited. Unix was started and lived for years on >>PDP-11s (a 16 bit machine) in the form of V5, V6, V7 and 2.9BSD and >>2.11BSD. I may add it was on other machines like the Interdatas. To be strictly correct, the original version of Unix was written (in assembler) for a Digital PDP-7 which was an 18bit computer. It was later rewritten in B and then C which allowed a reasonably easy port to PDP-11s, where it lived for a long while. >I thought someone had said that CP/M was based on Unix? Or was that one >of the PDP opsys? CP/M looks at the user level almost exactly as RT-11 does, so my guess is that RT-11 was the inspiration for CP/M. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From dastar at wco.com Thu May 7 02:22:15 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I think a computer needs to have some kind of 'program' which is > > > sequenced in some way, and also conditional branching. That _might_ be > > > > I think Tony just defined the distinction between a simple circuit and a > > computer. A computer can act on logic that allows it to conditionally > > Defining 'computer' (either analogue or digital) is well-known to be > non-trivial. There are far too many border-line cases. > > > branch. I'd add that a computer's function can be changed without > > physically altering the computer (stored program). > > Hmm... In one sense I agree with you, and in another, I have problems > with the fact that a circuit with the program stored in RAM or core is a > computer, and the same circuit with the program stored in masked ROM (so > you do have to make physical changes to change the program) is not. > Marginal case again... AHA! But I anticipated this objection and already have a response. What I meant in the sense that the function can be changed without physically altering the computer (machine) is that there is a definite distinction between the circuitry to drive the logic unit (CPU) and the circuitry which defines the stored program (code). So while a masked ROM cannot be altered, you can swap out the ROM with a new ROM with a completely different set of instructions, while the rest of the circuitry which executes the code remains unmodified. > > There's a fine distinction between a circuit and a computer and when a > > circuit becomes a computer. I for one would not consider a filter to be a > > I quite like Philip's definition that an analogue computer combines 2 or > more signals in a way more complex than addition. I can still think of > borderline cases, though - is a 4-quadrant analogue multiplier really > enough to be called a computer? I don't think so. But then my arguments are mostly with regards to digital computers and not analogue. I think the murky area being argued here is strictly pertaining to analog computers since it is indeed a series of filters and amplifiers combined to manipulate analog signals. A digital computer is something quite different, and I think quite easy to define. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/03/98] From dastar at wco.com Thu May 7 02:26:41 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac Message-ID: Anyone see the new Apple iMac unveiled today? I like it. Instant classic. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/03/98] From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Thu May 7 03:03:28 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199805070803.SAA26014@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 12:26 AM 07-05-98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: > >Anyone see the new Apple iMac unveiled today? I like it. Instant >classic. The best comment so far at work was that after its useful life it would be much easier to convert into a fishbowl. Just turn upside down and fill :-) Does look cool, but I'd like to touch one before committing one way or the other. In my scheme of things, MacOS is about fourth or fifth choice. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 7 03:20:55 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Here's 2 morde boards to ID... In-Reply-To: "Daniel A. Seagraves" "Here's 2 morde boards to ID..." (May 6, 19:25) References: <13353641830.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <9805070920.ZM6798@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 6, 19:25, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Anyway, what are the: > EMULEX SC03 It's a QBus controller for SMD drives. It will support two physical drives, making them emulate two (or more, if necessary) logical DEC drives. We need to know the suffix (SC03/A, SC03/B, SC03/C) as there are at least three versions, emulating different drives. I have an SC03 which emulates RM03s, but there's an MSCP version as well. I've got the manual for this one, too. > Dilog CQ2010 QBus communications controller of some sort. I don't know the details on this one, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 7 03:24:12 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: What's an Emulex TC12? In-Reply-To: "Daniel A. Seagraves" "Re: What's an Emulex TC12?" (May 6, 19:07) References: <13353638481.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <9805070924.ZM6825@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 6, 19:07, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Subject: Re: What's an Emulex TC12? And I sent an unsigned repy. Normal sig has now been restored :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu May 7 03:34:28 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac Message-ID: <001d01bd7992$f5d4ec00$2c6fbcc1@hotze> I disagree. Apple, at least to me, represents that innovation can live in today's computer industry, and that being different makes you ahead, not behind of the crowd. (And yes, I thought that BEFORE Apple's current marketing campaign.) Looks cool, but I want more information, and, as most people go, they'll need reasons to want a $1.3K over a $600-$800 PC. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Huw Davies To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, May 07, 1998 11:10 AM Subject: Re: the new Apple iMac >At 12:26 AM 07-05-98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: >> >>Anyone see the new Apple iMac unveiled today? I like it. Instant >>classic. > >The best comment so far at work was that after its useful life it would be >much easier to convert into a fishbowl. Just turn upside down and fill :-) > >Does look cool, but I'd like to touch one before committing one way or the >other. In my scheme of things, MacOS is about fourth or fifth choice. > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au > Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 >1999 > La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From yowza at yowza.com Thu May 7 05:15:48 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Anyone see the new Apple iMac unveiled today? I like it. Instant > classic. Is it just me, or does that thing look just like a DEC VT220? BTW, how much are used 20th Aniversary Macs going for now? -- Doug From nhdirect at tiac.net Thu May 7 08:43:54 1998 From: nhdirect at tiac.net (S&D Assoc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Do we belong on list? Message-ID: <199805071057.GAA01171@mail-out-1.tiac.net> Should our service be on your list? I have included a write up that we publish to selected newsgroups. Would our service be of interest to your members. David nhdirect@tiac.net New Hampshire Computer Flea Market ?Bring unwanted computer items to sell, and/or buy at bargain prices? Someone is looking for the computer hardware and software that you no longer use. Sell those items at the Computer Flea Market on Sunday May 10 from 9 AM to 2 PM, at Daniels Hall, Rt 4, Nottingham, NH. This is an excellent opportunity to turn your unwanted computer hardware & software, MAC or PC, games, etc., into cash, or purchase at bargain prices. Also just come to swap ideas with other local computer users. Free admission to those folks coming to look and possibly buy, and $5.00 admission for those bringing items to sell. Join us at the flea market on the 2nd Sunday of every month. Food & drink are available. Dealers are also welcome ($20.00 table charge, electricity included). Dealers should reserve display space by e-mailing nhdirect@tiac.net or calling 603 942-8525. Visit the Computer Flea Market web page at: http://www.tiac.net/users/nhdirect/flea.html Sponsored by S&D Associates From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 7 06:40:05 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Low-end Unix (was: TI99: Anyone reading this with a TI-99/4A?) Message-ID: <199805071140.AA22796@world.std.com> I have heard tell (from a very reliable source) of a version of Unix Message-ID: <13353752638.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Physical layout of my TC12: I have it on my lap, with the UNIBUS connector towards me. There is a row of jumpers (None set) in the top left and right of the card, right under the handles. There are 4 DIP switches between the 2 ribbon cable plugs. There are 2 10-switch DIP packs next to the 2 Emulex chips. SW2 and SW3. There are a few other wire-wrapped jumpers scattered around the board. Next, the 4 UNIBUS connectors are labeled C, D, E, ------- From cfandt at servtech.com Thu May 7 08:19:28 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Zenith Z90 In-Reply-To: References: <001701bd7955$5087cca0$0b020bce@fauradon> Message-ID: <199805071325.NAA29923@cyber2.servtech.com> At 02:34 07-05-98 +0100, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >BTW, is a Z-88 (Zenith, not Sinclair for the UK people here) related to >this machine? Is it the cassette version or something? The H-88 (not Z-88) was a converted H-/Z-19 terminal. I never heard of a 'Z'-88. Do you own or have seen a H/Z-89-90-like machine marked Z-88? Recall I stated that the H-89/Z-90 was built in the same case as the H/Z-19 essentially making a single-unit computer with terminal. Kind of handy since the Z-90 machines were often sold to business owners who had small-size offices or whatever. Anyway, Heath Company offered a kit (have to lookup the model number in my old Heath catalog collection -think it was H88-1) consisting of boards, sheet metal, cables, etc. to make a bare-bones H-89, typicaly dubbed H-88. Yes, a cassette interface was available, maybe with this bare-bones thing and/or a stipped down actual H-89. The earliest floppy disk system for the 8-bitters was the model H-17 used with the H-8. Used the hard sectored Siemens 5.25" floppy drives (1,2 or 3 drives in the case) with an H-17 controller. The H/Z-77 was the soft-sectored 5.25" floppy disk system with 1 or 2 drives and was offered first with the H-89 and Z-90. In addition to the 5.25 systems, and less likely to find because of their original high cost and lousy reliability, was the H/Z-47 8" drive system. I can't recall at this time, as I don't own one, the brand of drives but there was a master floppy drive and a slave floppy drive -used an early SASI knock-off as interface IIRC. Also, the H/Z-67 fixed disk system was offered. I think it was only a 5 MB hard disk IIRC. I can check this stuff if anybody interested as I have most of the manuals for this stuff and some catalogs and other docs. Anyway, the H-8 could use any of these drive systems and the H/Z-89/90 the same. There was quite a bunch of us back in the old days who were a close-knit users group for the H-8, H/Z-89/90 and H/Z-100 machines. It supported a cottage industry somewhat smaller than that of the Apple and Commodore folks, but there were the truly faithful supporters out there and Heath supported us as well. --Chris -- -- From mor at crl.com Thu May 7 07:35:05 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement References: <3.0.16.19980506185017.3f4f26b2@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3551AA79.48834AFB@crl.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 11:14 PM 5/5/98 +0100, you wrote: > >When I call Tech Support I will have made some attempts to check the > >obvious, gather evidence, and solve the problem. In particular : > > > >I'll have checked the 'bleeding obvious' - that it's plugged in, that I > >am running the program I think I am running, etc > > Ah, but you are (especially for mainstream stuff) reasonably rare. The > average I-bought-my-computer-at-circuit-city-and-got-a-free-hair-dryer > idiot has done none of that. Most likely, he's tripped over the power cord > and unplugged it, or tried to install a pirated game that had a virus and > his hd is toast or... Then there's the person who says, "And don't even ask me if I've turned it on--YES I'VE TURNED IT ON..." Only after a few minutes you determine that, YES, the computer is turned on, but alas the printer that's not working _also_ has a power switch which needs to be flipped ;) Happened to me just yesterday while helping a friend out. She was utterly certain she'd done everything right and this HAD to be a serious problem... This is of course a variation on the classic case where the user is turning the monitor on and off, thinking that's the power switch to the "computer"... -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu May 7 09:21:02 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Zenith Z90 In-Reply-To: References: <199805060233.VAA15086@onyx.southwind.net> from "Jeff Kaneko" at May 5, 98 08:31:01 pm Message-ID: <199805071352.IAA17212@onyx.southwind.net> > OK, the manual says 'Micronex Pixelplotter Graphics on the Z89/RFI > computer'. It also says 'Micronex Limited, Harford Square, Chew Magna, > Bristol, England'. I've got the installation instructions and memory maps > - the thing contains 16K of RAM which is bank-switched with 16K of the > normal memory. I think my board uses port F2H, bit 3 to select the new > 16K, but I'm not absolutely sure. More info when I pull it apart.... To the archives, then. Lets see what we can dredge up . . . . > Please do. Copying them could be a problem as they're pretty large > sheets, but even being able to check details with somebody when I'm > tracing things would be useful. Found the print! My company has a blueprint copier, so I can re-produce it, no problemo. > I do have an external Zenith disk unit, but it contains 2 Siemens drives > that are identical to the one in the Z90. I assume they're 40 track. Ah, ok, yes, 40 track. Hm. Usually if they went to the expense of external drives, they either went all the way with 'em or just added a drive to the Hard-sectored controller (like a friend of mine originally did). You also had these jaded individuals who used the Z-67 8" controller card, 8" floppies, with a winchester. These guys really had money to burn. Sheesh. > Yes, that's mentioned in my hardware manual. I assume, though that I can > use the strobe disk on the spindle and set it like any other 300 rpm > drive. I will probably check the speed (and the head alignment - I have > the disks to do that) before I do anything serious with the machine. Alignment disks, eh? Boy those are getting scarce (not to mention even more costly than ever before). I tried lighting up my H-89 last nite (to my wife's dismay). My 89's as dead as a doornail-- only one 'beep'. Damn. More hardware I gotta fix now. First, I have to find all of the original PLA's and proms and stuff that were installed *before* I added the DD controller, which will be a project in itself. :-/ -- Jeff From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 7 10:48:06 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: What's an Emulex TC12? In-Reply-To: <13353638481.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at May 6, 98 07:07:00 pm Message-ID: <9805071448.AA06334@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1720 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980507/4dea73d9/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 7 10:35:36 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980507103536.00a69d50@pc> "Jeff Kaneko" >You know, this idea makes sense. But have a feeling that most >product managers (the guys most in the position to make these >decisions) are so far removed from the product, so intimidated by >the almighty 'Company Policy (tm)', (not to mention hair being way, >way too pointy) that even this will not get consideration. Tony Duell wrote: >Well, I'm sure we all think that would be a Good Thing, but just try >convincing companies of that. OK, help me brainstorm arguments to persuade companies to release obsolete information. Certainly pointy-haired managers (does the cartoon "Dilbert" cross the pond?) will opt for the simple safe solution of "don't let anything out of the office, or out of our control". And there's the question of money to be made. As soon as someone seems interested in old technology, they'll believe there's still some money to be made. Then there's the question of the cost and trouble of drafting or approving any legal document to make the transaction official. Why spend money on giving away products? - John Jefferson Computer Museum From dastar at wco.com Thu May 7 10:47:36 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer In-Reply-To: <199805071140.AA22928@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 May 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > Apply that to the 8048 or other single chip mcu. Ok, ignore the physical aspects which would allow or prevent the alteration of the computer. Logically, the code (function) is removed from the CPU (circuitry). In an analog circuit, the circuit IS the code AND the executor. A digital computer has a definite distinction between the code and the executor. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/03/98] From jruschme at exit109.com Thu May 7 10:48:30 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980507103536.00a69d50@pc> from John Foust at "May 7, 98 10:35:36 am" Message-ID: <199805071548.LAA02840@crobin.home.org> > "Jeff Kaneko" > >You know, this idea makes sense. But have a feeling that most > >product managers (the guys most in the position to make these > >decisions) are so far removed from the product, so intimidated by > >the almighty 'Company Policy (tm)', (not to mention hair being way, > >way too pointy) that even this will not get consideration. > > Tony Duell wrote: > >Well, I'm sure we all think that would be a Good Thing, but just try > >convincing companies of that. > > OK, help me brainstorm arguments to persuade companies to release > obsolete information. Certainly pointy-haired managers (does the > cartoon "Dilbert" cross the pond?) will opt for the simple safe > solution of "don't let anything out of the office, or out of our > control". And there's the question of money to be made. As soon > as someone seems interested in old technology, they'll believe > there's still some money to be made. Then there's the question > of the cost and trouble of drafting or approving any legal document > to make the transaction official. Why spend money on giving away > products? One thing to remember here is that your logic is based on the premise that the information still exists. Recently, I wrote to AST (a company which is pretty good about making old tech info available) about jumper settings for a Mac286 board. (The Mac286 is the original DOS coprocessor for the Mac. AST later sold the rights and technologies to Orange Micro.) According to the polite reply I received back, there was nothing available. The tone was not a brushoff, so I can only assume that the info is either: a) lost b) stored in a locked file cabinet in a disused lavoratory marked with a sign which reads "Beware of the Leopard". One thing to add to your PHM logic, also... I suspect that a lot of companies keep close hold on old technology because they feel, rightly or wrongly, that it contains "sensitive" information which might lead to the compromise of some current product. One can imagine Microsoft using this logic to protect MBASIC or Apple using it with regards to the Lisa Office System. <<>> P.S. If anyone has a copy of the docs for a Mac286 board (any and all versions), please let me know. I maintain a small web page devoted to these cards and would love to answer some questions and get some info. From go at ao.com Thu May 7 12:27:33 1998 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:43 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products In-Reply-To: <199805071548.LAA02840@crobin.home.org> References: <3.0.1.32.19980507103536.00a69d50@pc> Message-ID: <199805071727.KAA29943@office.ao.com> There are companies that care... I recently wanted to resurrect an old 7 track tape drive that "had worked just fine 10 years ago" but found it wasn't working fine anymore. The drive was an old DigiData rackmount 7 track drive that predated TTL (logic was all DTL and transistors.) I had little hope of finding said documentation, but I thought I would ask - it would give some engineer a chuckle for the day, at least. Locating DigiData from their web page (they WERE still doing business) gave me a email contact address. Sent a polite note to an "engineer/ support" address and about how I was doing some "software archeology" and needed to restore one of their old drives. Within 24 hours I received a very nice reply wanting to know where he should send "the dead sea scrolls!" Package arrived last week and it contained a THICK technical manual with EVERYTHING - schematics, exploded views, parts lists, suppliers - the whole NINE yards. I was very impressed. It HAS to be at least 25 years old, but it was still wrapped in plastic and looked brand new. The point of this is now I have my drive back and DigiData has made a very good impression. Their current products are a far cry from the stuff of 25 years ago (they now make high-end RAID disks systems.) You can BET that I will recommend their products to my customers now that I know the kind of support I can expect! These companies have got to me made to understand that good documentation and product support long after the "life" is out of a product DOES make good commercial sense. We have a customer who is a major supplier of wood products machinery (plywood and saw mill stuff) that has parts on their inventory shelves more than 100 years old because they support mills that are running equipment that old. It costs them little to do this (except the IRS hassles of inventory evaluation - I'm sure they've "paid" for that inventory several times over with taxation on the shelf stock.) But the good will it generates from their customers, knowing they can repair a dead mill from company stock parts is priceless. If we encourage this behavior and reward it with purchasing products (and recommending purchase) from companies that hold these attitudes, we may be able to make a difference. At least I'll do what I can. Gary From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu May 7 12:59:00 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Proposal: "Legacy" Open Products Partition Message-ID: <000101bd79e1$ff950280$8e67bcc1@hotze> OK.. this is very quick, but basically, I want to outline the following points for making a way for old, no longer profitable hardware/software to make it available: Reasons To Change 1) Public relations. People who think that you're giving away info on products that your company made will have a profound effect on anyone involved. 2) No longer responsible for the information. You don't have to archive old data anymore, meaning that you can make information lean and clean. Support for old products can come from those who now hold the information. 3) Recieve credit for work. You (the company giving information) will get credit for your work, meaning that if someone thinks that Product A Rev. 1.x has innovation, then Product B 8.x will, too. Also, it means that you significantly increase your user base without costly advertising/marketing campaigns. Now, here's what I propose needs to happen to get this done: 1) Liscense agreement. This would be similiar to the GPL (in the fact that it's free, but does not bar anyone from profiting by information.) 2) Central orginazation. Something like GNU, but less proffesional. It would contain all archives collected, as well as user-made enhancements, notes or other docs. (For example: Getting a ST 251 to work under Linux/Windows) Then for support, tech. support reps. could reffer ceretain products to the orginiaztion and not waste any more time. This would prove to save companies time and money, especially if it saves training. 3) Petition would need to be made of lots of people (Founding members) willing to support this idea, weather through time, money, or just a name giving support. For the liscense agreement, we need to be as flexible as possible to get as much information as possible. So we'd have levels, where any information could be used for commercial purposes (building new drives based on information), where it could be used for referance (for instance fixing a drive), or for "small" commercial purposes. (For example, Fredrick's XT Part Shop could build new Seagate MFM drives/re-sell modified copies of PC-DOS 1.x, whereas Maxtor couldn't.) So, this is just a basic list, and I want it to get improved, then when we're sure we know what we want, finilize it, legalize it, put it on the web, and propose to hardware/software manufactuers. Just my 0.02 (with interests, no doubt.) Tim D. Hotze From william at ans.net Thu May 7 13:12:24 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ok, ignore the physical aspects which would allow or prevent the > alteration of the computer. Logically, the code (function) is removed > from the CPU (circuitry). In an analog circuit, the circuit IS the code > AND the executor. A digital computer has a definite distinction between > the code and the executor. I was not going to jump into this "cat vs. dog" argument, but... Most analog computers are programmed by a plugboard, or a matrix of analog crossbar switches - that is the "code". William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Thu May 7 13:14:53 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products In-Reply-To: <199805071727.KAA29943@office.ao.com> Message-ID: > Locating DigiData from their web page (they WERE still doing business) > gave me a email contact address. Sent a polite note to an "engineer/ > support" address and about how I was doing some "software archeology" > and needed to restore one of their old drives. Within 24 hours I > received a very nice reply wanting to know where he should send "the > dead sea scrolls!" Some of the folks at Motorola are also good about stuff like this. Many times I have needed data sheets for some of their more obscure, long obsolete chips, and they came thru with free photocopies from some ancient databooks. William Donzelli william@ans.net From yowza at yowza.com Thu May 7 13:22:24 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980507103536.00a69d50@pc> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 May 1998, John Foust wrote: > OK, help me brainstorm arguments to persuade companies to release > obsolete information. Certainly pointy-haired managers (does the > cartoon "Dilbert" cross the pond?) will opt for the simple safe > solution of "don't let anything out of the office, or out of our > control". And there's the question of money to be made. As soon > as someone seems interested in old technology, they'll believe > there's still some money to be made. Then there's the question > of the cost and trouble of drafting or approving any legal document > to make the transaction official. Why spend money on giving away > products? Appeal to their ego. Dear Pointy Haired Manager: My name is Joe Hacker, and I'm the curator of the Pointy Haired Products museum, an organization dedicated to the preservation of Pointy Haired history. Our current project is the preservation of your products PH123A and PH171, and we'd like your help. We seek any documents, schematics, prototypes, or marketing literature that you feel may have historical significance related to these products. Even photocopies would assist our preservation effort, and we will gladly pay for any reasonable costs associated with transporting these items to our museum. Yours Truely, Joe If that doesn't work, maybe we could set up an organization for legacy support (something like the obsolete computer helpline). Most orgs would be happy to offload support for legacy products to a third-party org comprised of eager volunteers. -- Doug From dastar at wco.com Thu May 7 13:36:15 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 May 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > Ok, ignore the physical aspects which would allow or prevent the > > alteration of the computer. Logically, the code (function) is removed > > from the CPU (circuitry). In an analog circuit, the circuit IS the code > > AND the executor. A digital computer has a definite distinction between > > the code and the executor. > > I was not going to jump into this "cat vs. dog" argument, but... > > Most analog computers are programmed by a plugboard, or a matrix of analog > crossbar switches - that is the "code". I knew I shouldn't have added that last sentence. You got me. I'll have to re-group. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/05/98] From root at linux.epchs.k12.il.us Wed May 6 22:53:05 1998 From: root at linux.epchs.k12.il.us (root) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: [Try 3!] New toy! Digital camera. Wanna see my pile? Message-ID: <199805070353.WAA09882@linux.epchs.k12.il.us> Try #3, I can't seem to mail out from toad... School got a new digital camera, and I get to play with it. I've posted pictures of my 11/44 (GALAXIA) [My Pile] up at http://linux.epchs.k12.il.us/dseagrav Enjoy! Now, can I borrow this sucker for a weekend... From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu May 7 14:18:35 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products Message-ID: <18e4873e.3552090c@aol.com> I would also recommend that if you come across a company that helps with old systems like the story about the tape drive, be sure to let the company know their help is appreciated. hopefully that will still give them an incentive to continue to offer help. david From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu May 7 12:50:55 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: New toy! Digital camera! Let's take pictures of my pile... Message-ID: <13353810314.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> School bought a digital camera, and I get to play with it! I'll be posting pictures at http://linux.epchs.k12.il.us/dseagrav until about 2:35 PM. (When school's out.) Go ahead and take a look! ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu May 7 13:23:52 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: [Again!] New toy! Digital camera! Wanna see my pile? Message-ID: <13353816313.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Second try, doesn't look like the first one made it through. School bought a digital camera, and I get to play with it... I'll be posting pictures of my 11/44 Pile (GALAXIA) at http://linux.epchs.k12.il.us/dseagrav Go take a look! ------- From tomowad at earthlink.net Thu May 7 14:41:47 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac Message-ID: <199805071941.MAA18570@sweden.it.earthlink.net> >Anyone see the new Apple iMac unveiled today? I like it. Instant >classic. Has me excited. Beautiful design, fast G3 processor, really cheap...But does it have a SCSI port? A floppy drive? Those are two things I can't make do without. Tom From sethm at loomcom.com Thu May 7 15:14:11 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: <199805071941.MAA18570@sweden.it.earthlink.net> from "Tom Owad" at May 7, 98 12:41:47 pm Message-ID: <199805072014.NAA07319@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 602 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980507/7e75b2f7/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Thu May 7 15:23:49 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 7 May 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Ok, ignore the physical aspects which would allow or prevent the > > > alteration of the computer. Logically, the code (function) is removed > > > from the CPU (circuitry). In an analog circuit, the circuit IS the code > > > AND the executor. A digital computer has a definite distinction between > > > the code and the executor. > > > > I was not going to jump into this "cat vs. dog" argument, but... > > > > Most analog computers are programmed by a plugboard, or a matrix of analog > > crossbar switches - that is the "code". > > I knew I shouldn't have added that last sentence. You got me. I'll have > to re-group. Er, wait. The last sentence stands. I was referring to a sentence that wasn't quoted. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/05/98] From cad at gamewood.net Thu May 7 15:24:40 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products References: <18e4873e.3552090c@aol.com> Message-ID: <35521888.B4B@gamewood.net> SUPRDAVE wrote: > > I would also recommend that if you come across a company that helps with old > systems like the story about the tape drive, be sure to let the company know > their help is appreciated. hopefully that will still give them an incentive to > continue to offer help. > > david Just be SURE, that your 'letter of Thanks', isn't going to trigger the _firing_ of some helpful soul, who ignored 'Company Policy" to be helpful. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Thu May 7 15:40:21 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: <199805071941.MAA18570@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980507154021.007e57c0@wingate> At 12:41 PM 5/7/98 -0700, you wrote: >>Anyone see the new Apple iMac unveiled today? I like it. Instant >>classic. > >Has me excited. Beautiful design, fast G3 processor, really cheap...But >does it have a SCSI port? A floppy drive? Those are two things I can't >make do without. > >Tom > As I understand it, the only internal upgrade option will be RAM, expandable to 128 meg. There will be no internal floppy option. It will have a USB port, so there will probably be all kinds of third-party disk options for it--is/will there be a USB Zip drive? -- David Wollmann dwollmann@ibmhelp.com From donm at cts.com Thu May 7 16:01:02 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Prototype Apple //c found In-Reply-To: <199805070448.VAA29351@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 6 May 1998, Frank McConnell wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > Was "TERI" the codename for the Apple //c? > > Moby. At least that's what I get from this book I got turned onto: > _AppleDesign: The Work of the Apple Industrial Design Group_, by Paul > Kunkel, photos by Rick English, ISBN 1-888001-25-9, published by > Graphis, 1997. > > Mini-review: |<00|_ pictures of computers and concept models and other > things. Emphasis is on industrial design, not technology. The text > is marred by typos and an overall feeling that the author thinks Apple > and those responsible are just too cool for words. > > Maybe they are. Or maybe it's just that I've had enough of dealing > with PC-contemptibles with funny disk-drive rails and the like that > I'm not real tolerant of k00l kasewerk any more. They sure are pretty > pictures, though.... > > -Frank McConnell I'll bet you really love the the new iMac then - you know, the one that glows in the dark! - don From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 7 16:02:01 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac Message-ID: | -----Original Message----- | From: David Wollmann [mailto:dwollmann@ibmhelp.com] | Sent: Thursday, May 07, 1998 1:40 PM | To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers | Subject: Re: the new Apple iMac | | is/will there be a USB Zip drive? Nope. Kind of off the classic subject but... USB is for sound, keyboards, pointing devices, joysticks, single-user printers, and low-bandwidth video such as webcam/lowres videoconferencing/frame capture. USB is a low-speed bus that is already overwhelmed with all of these duties without dropping a very high bandwidth storage device on there as well. The last thing you want is for your mouse to get choppy when you print, for example. The "high speed" version of USB is only 1.5MBps and Dolby Digital AC-3 DVD audio can take half of that alone. We are strongly evangelizing against anyone doing fast storage devices for USB. IEEE1394/Firewire is the connection of choice for full motion video/editing, storage devices, workgroup printers, etc. Kai From K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz Thu May 7 15:55:22 1998 From: K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz (Keith Whitehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Anyone see the new Apple iMac unveiled today? I like it. Instant >classic. > > Yep...a VERY souped up Mac 128...infact this one expands up to 128 Meg Ram..coincidence (or hey a really neat conspiracy theory). Looks like Steve has got back to his roots...the computer as a home appliance. Wonder if I can run Dark Castle on it :-) However it looks as though like the 128 it is a closed box, note: NO mention of SCSI NO mention of a floppy drive NO mention of a ZIP drive NO mention of an expansion bus NO mention of firewire NO mention if the internal modem is upgradeable to 56K NO mention of video in/out However ALL existing peripherals will be redundant NO ADB, therefore all input devices will need to be redisgned ie trackballs,graphics tablets, joysticks, etc How can you share data with a PC owner with no magnetic media for transport Will the IR port be compatible with existing printers with IR ports With all of the missing bits, and obviously a home machine, have 10/100 ethernet rather than firewire seems...well....stupid! But on the plus side the blue tanslucent top is so weird that it is cool. Personally I will wait for generation 2 when they have finally figured out the world has moved on since the original Mac and they now expect some level of expandability. I will almost put money the Gen2 with have dumped the e/net in favour of firewire, just as ADB has been replced with USB. Cheers From cfandt at servtech.com Thu May 7 16:10:40 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products In-Reply-To: <199805071727.KAA29943@office.ao.com> References: <199805071548.LAA02840@crobin.home.org> <3.0.1.32.19980507103536.00a69d50@pc> Message-ID: <199805072116.VAA12630@cyber2.servtech.com> At 10:27 07-05-98 -0700, Gary Oliver wrote: >There are companies that care... I recently wanted to resurrect an *Very* few companies, darn it. >Locating DigiData from their web page (they WERE still doing business) A problem is that companies get bought out and/or go completely out of business. These circumstances cause loss of a *lot* of parts and paper useful for folks who still have equipment they want to use or, like us, to preserve and document. >We have a customer who is a major supplier of wood products machinery >(plywood and saw mill stuff) that has parts on their inventory shelves >more than 100 years old because they support mills that are running Yeah, occasionally I still privately support ("unofficially" as far as my company is concerned) a few of our old customers who have ancient optical measuring instruments that are 25 to 40 years old. They eventually track down and call my company who is now the third generation instrument manufacturer from the original manufacturer (originally Bausch & Lomb in this case). Customer Service in my company turns them toward me partly because they know I used to build and repair those products (I've been here 24 years), they kinda want to provide good Customer Relations as in 'Good Will' ("We can maybe sell a new electronic linear encoder system to them later") and finally, they know I'm a Certified Pack Rat who has rescued a lot of old parts and manuals from the Dumpster Patrol. The net result is for us to ratchet upwards market share even if it's ever so slight. We as collectors/preservationists wish companies in the computer world would do the same but there's reasons mentioned further on.... >equipment that old. It costs them little to do this (except the IRS >hassles of inventory evaluation - I'm sure they've "paid" for that >inventory several times over with taxation on the shelf stock.) But This is a bell-ringer with many companies who pay too much attention to "The Bottom Line". Even my company's bean counters panic when they find that obsolete parts have been setting on the shelf for more than a year or so. "Call the Dumpster Brigade! We've got an emergency in Finished Goods" is the call from the company comptroller. We're a small-to-mid sized company, so sometimes we can negotiate with the comptroller so salvage some stuff. The IRS socks it to all companies to pay tax on all of their parts inventory. If it is not making money (as in being obsolete and not many repair parts being sold) then trash it. Otherwise, a company could be bled dry of its financial resources over a period of time from being taxed too much for too long. >the good will it generates from their customers, knowing they can >repair a dead mill from company stock parts is priceless. Try to tell a company driven by bean counters the exact value of "priceless". I mean to say that the sales/engineering/manufacturing parts of that company may have the good customer relations at heart but sometimes the accountants want to see the money in that. > >If we encourage this behavior and reward it with purchasing products >(and recommending purchase) from companies that hold these attitudes, >we may be able to make a difference. At least I'll do what I can. > >Gary > --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 7 13:34:52 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980507103536.00a69d50@pc> from "John Foust" at May 7, 98 10:35:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1628 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980507/12b5cdbc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 7 14:31:51 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 7, 98 08:47:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1536 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980507/512aabe1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 7 12:53:03 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Microsoft BASIC 80 non-disclosure agreement In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980506185017.3f4f26b2@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at May 6, 98 09:35:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1789 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980507/e1fba040/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu May 7 15:43:10 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: terminal keyboards needed Message-ID: <35521CDE.FB6AED5C@bbtel.com> Well I found agood home for the otherwise in my way terminals and the new owner is in need of a keyboard for the VT 100 and the VT 220. A few people wrote me in the past but I'm not sure who it was but if you email me direct I can relay your message to this person in New Hamster and he can contact you about them. He is getting working units for the cost of shipping and I imagine he has some collection intent for them -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dastar at wco.com Thu May 7 16:27:31 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 May 1998, Keith Whitehead wrote: > Yep...a VERY souped up Mac 128...infact this one expands up to 128 Meg > Ram..coincidence (or hey a really neat conspiracy theory). Woah. That got me thinking. It'll be scary when they come out with the 512MB Fat-iMac. > How can you share data with a PC owner with no magnetic media for transport Simple, use the internet. That's what its there for. > With all of the missing bits, and obviously a home machine, have 10/100 > ethernet rather than firewire seems...well....stupid! 10/100 is a commerical reality. Firewire is still unproven in the marketplace. You can hook an iMac up to TCI's cable modem service for instance. How many telephone/cable companies are supporting firewire? What was that? None? > Personally I will wait for generation 2 when they have finally figured out > the world has moved on since the original Mac and they now expect some > level of expandability. I will almost put money the Gen2 with have dumped > the e/net in favour of firewire, just as ADB has been replced with USB. I think you've missed the point. The iMac is more of an internet appliance than a PC made for upgrading everytime a new Pentium comes out. The whole point is that you install it and go. I don't mean to sound like a Mac advocate but... Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/05/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 7 13:06:39 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 7, 98 00:22:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1792 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980507/7c4afc83/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 7 13:17:57 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Zenith Z90 In-Reply-To: <199805071325.NAA29923@cyber2.servtech.com> from "Christian Fandt" at May 7, 98 09:19:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2225 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980507/a410a719/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Thu May 7 16:35:49 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Zenith Z90 In-Reply-To: <199805071352.IAA17212@onyx.southwind.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 May 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > > OK, the manual says 'Micronex Pixelplotter Graphics on the Z89/RFI **** snip **** > > use the strobe disk on the spindle and set it like any other 300 rpm > > drive. I will probably check the speed (and the head alignment - I have > > the disks to do that) before I do anything serious with the machine. > > Alignment disks, eh? Boy those are getting scarce (not to mention > even more costly than ever before). I tried lighting up my H-89 last > nite (to my wife's dismay). They are still readily available from: Accurite Technologies, Inc. 231 Charcot Avenue San Jose CA 95131-1107 408-433-1980 voice 408-433-1716 fax www.accurite.com More costly? No argument. - don From jconklin at leydig.com Thu May 7 16:41:58 1998 From: jconklin at leydig.com (Conklin, John) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Data General's AOS operating system and its MP/OS operating syste m Message-ID: <21144B91F16CD111BAAD00805FCB17CA0B9FB1@LVMCHI> I am searching for a source of manuals and any related documentation for Data General's Advanced Operating System (AOS) and for its MP/OS operating system. The AOS ran on DGs Eclipse minicomputer. The MP/OS ran on DGs microprocessor-based MicoNova. Someone suggested you may be able to help. Can you? John Conklin (312) 616-5600 From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu May 7 16:59:42 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980507154021.007e57c0@wingate> References: <199805071941.MAA18570@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <199805072213.RAA00189@onyx.southwind.net> > At 12:41 PM 5/7/98 -0700, you wrote: > >>Anyone see the new Apple iMac unveiled today? I like it. Instant > >>classic. > > > >Has me excited. Beautiful design, fast G3 processor, really cheap...But > >does it have a SCSI port? A floppy drive? Those are two things I can't > >make do without. > > > >Tom > > > > As I understand it, the only internal upgrade option will be RAM, > expandable to 128 meg. > There will be no internal floppy option. It will have a USB port, so there > will probably be all kinds of third-party disk options for it--is/will > there be a USB Zip drive? No floppy, eh? These guys never learn, do they? They're gonna use the USB port for disk drives? Geeze, I guess they're fixing to go bankrupt for real this time! Instant classic my foot. More like instant 'Edsel' or instant 'NextCube'. If you're not the lead dog, you shouldn't try to steer . . . From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu May 7 18:10:42 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac Message-ID: <19980507231042.12391.qmail@hotmail.com> I can imagine a floppy disk stealing his college thesis. Pretty likely, actually. AFAIK, though, NO NeXT has shipped with floppies, but rather with MOs, which are pretty annoying because of the many formats and price per disk. Actually, if I were to design a computer, I would consider not including a floppy drive, or at least making it so that it doesn't depend on it. Steve Jobs is known to hold grudges >personally against floppies. Did a floppy drive try to kill his sister? >Insult his family? Steal his college thesis and claim it as its own? > >Whatever grievous harm a floppy drive has done to him in the past, >it must have been quite bad for him to hold a grudge this long. > >> Tom > >-Seth > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 7 18:15:55 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac Message-ID: Steve Jobs is known to hold grudges >personally against floppies. Did a floppy drive try to kill his sister? >Insult his family? Steal his college thesis and claim it as its own? > >Whatever grievous harm a floppy drive has done to him in the past, >it must have been quite bad for him to hold a grudge this long. One word: "Twiggy". (Lisa 1 floppy) Kai From red at bears.org Thu May 7 18:31:15 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: <19980507231042.12391.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 May 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > I can imagine a floppy disk stealing his college thesis. Pretty > likely, actually. AFAIK, though, NO NeXT has shipped with floppies, > but rather with MOs, which are pretty annoying because of the many > formats and price per disk. Wrong. Every last NeXTstation shipped with a 2.88 MB ED floppy drive. A number of the later 040 cubes did as well. > Actually, if I were to design a computer, I would consider not > including a floppy drive, or at least making it so that it doesn't > depend on it. I totally agree. Any more, floppy disk drives are more a PITA than they are useful. Creation is no longer the focus of home computing---the browser took care of that issue. This means having removable, writeable media is less of a priority. In the corporate setting, where computers are still used primarily for creation and dissemination, you have LANs to alleviate the need for such media. The floppy plays little role in modern computing. ok r. From peacock at simconv.com Thu May 7 18:42:54 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8B9@mail.simconv.com> Steve Jobs is known to hold grudges >personally against floppies. Did a floppy drive try to kill his sister? >Insult his family? Steal his college thesis and claim it as its own? One word....Twiggy Anyone who ever used a twiggy floppy drive would swear off floppies forever. Jack Peacock From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Thu May 7 18:31:47 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: terminal keyboards needed In-Reply-To: <35521CDE.FB6AED5C@bbtel.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at May 7, 98 03:43:10 pm Message-ID: <199805072331.TAA04430@shell.monmouth.com> > > Well I found agood home for the otherwise in my way terminals and the > new owner is in need of a keyboard for the VT 100 and the VT 220. A few > people wrote me in the past but I'm not sure who it was but if you email > me direct I can relay your message to this person in New Hamster and he > can contact you about them. He is getting working units for the cost of > shipping and I imagine he has some collection intent for them > I've got a couple of VT100 and VT220 keyboards. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From dastar at wco.com Thu May 7 18:54:09 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Definition of an Analog(ue) Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > AHA! But I anticipated this objection and already have a response. What > > I meant in the sense that the function can be changed without physically > > altering the computer (machine) is that there is a definite distinction > > between the circuitry to drive the logic unit (CPU) and the circuitry > > which defines the stored program (code). So while a masked ROM cannot be > > Not if the masked ROM is on the same silicon die as the rest of the CPU > you can't. Think of microcontrollers.... I think we all agree that the > 8048, 8051, PIC, etc are computers by any reasonable definition... I understand that, but I think my point is being missed. I'm saying think of the distinction logically (virtually perhaps?) rather than physically. You can be nitpicky on this but the point is to look at it abstractly, disregarding the physical impossibility (at least as of now) of stripping out the code section of a microcontroller and replacing it with something else. Forget about that. Inside the microcontroller is a CPU and some code. Now contrast this with an analog filter, which performs a singular function based on the laws of physics. No instructions, no codes, no processing unit. Therein lies the distinction. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/05/98] From K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz Thu May 7 18:56:03 1998 From: K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz (Keith Whitehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Fri, 8 May 1998, Keith Whitehead wrote: > >> Yep...a VERY souped up Mac 128...infact this one expands up to 128 Meg >> Ram..coincidence (or hey a really neat conspiracy theory). > >Woah. That got me thinking. It'll be scary when they come out with the >512MB Fat-iMac. ....let me guess...we'll end up with a "Power Plus" machine that has up to 4 Gig Ram, SCSI port, new expanded keyboard, etc > >> How can you share data with a PC owner with no magnetic media for transport > >Simple, use the internet. That's what its there for. Well I take plain text files home between the PC at work and my Mac at home, Reason I like EditII on the mac and use this to generate my 68HC11 assembly code, however the programmer is on the PC at work, so I transport S1-S9 files too. Why the hell would I want to dial into the internet to do that OR share text files with freinds (who don't have email anyway). > >> With all of the missing bits, and obviously a home machine, have 10/100 >> ethernet rather than firewire seems...well....stupid! > >10/100 is a commerical reality. Firewire is still unproven in the >marketplace. You can hook an iMac up to TCI's cable modem service for >instance. How many telephone/cable companies are supporting firewire? >What was that? None? Ahh the great chicken and egg argument....However apple took the risks with 3 1/2 inch floppies, GUI OS,Postscript,SCSI,AppleTalk,Truetype,etc..etc..etc so now we are left with we "won't use it untill everyone else does", a commercial success always starts with a small beginning. I think there is a chinese (?) saying "the longest journey begins with the first step" . >I think you've missed the point. The iMac is more of an internet >appliance than a PC made for upgrading everytime a new Pentium comes out. >The whole point is that you install it and go. Adding a SCSI/Firewire/Expansion port does not prevent this, but say in 2-3 years time when DVD becomes prevalent the way that ZIP drives have what then..sell the whole machine and buy a whole new one just to add one more function...NOT, I don't have that sort of money to write a whole machine off every 3 years (Thats why I still run my TRS80 4P ;-) ) I still believe that apple have grossly underestimated what the markets expectations for a "computer" are...even if you call it an appliance, I have a toaster, I have a microwave, I have plenty of appliances...what I want is a computer. Cheers +----------- Keith Whitehead -----------+ | Physics and Chemistry Depts | | Massey University | | Palmerston North | | New Zealand | | | | Ph +64 6 350-5074 Fax +64 6 354-0207 | +------------------------------------------+ From peacock at simconv.com Thu May 7 19:27:58 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8BA@mail.simconv.com> If this new Mac has no removeable media, what happens when the hard drive breaks? How do you re-install the OS? Off the net? Catch-22, OS isn't running, no TCP/IP stack. Off the USB? OK, then the boot ROM supports bootable media from the USB? I'm impressed, even PCs don't support that. And the removeable media of choice for the USB is? No wait, let me guess, a scanner...you load the OS by scanning in bar codes which contain the OS binaries. That would be, oh, about 100K pages to scan in? Or you just send the whole thing back to Apple, and if they have spares, and they are still in business, they send you back a nice new pre-installed disk, sans all the software and setup you had on it. Then you restore off the net, but uh oh, all you have is a 28.8Kb connection, and 400MB of backup. Good plan, system administrators will love this machine. No doubt corporate types will beat down Apple's door to buy it. Jack Peacock From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu May 7 17:36:23 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199805072351.SAA09529@onyx.southwind.net> > > IEEE1394/Firewire is the connection of choice for full motion video/editing, > storage devices, workgroup printers, etc. > > Kai > > . . . . said the lead dog ;^) From lgroebe at insidermarketing.com Thu May 7 19:24:31 1998 From: lgroebe at insidermarketing.com (Larry Groebe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac (last words?) Message-ID: <19980507191942.38c89cd9.in@insidermarketing.com> >If this new Mac has no removeable media, what happens when the hard >drive breaks? How do you re-install the OS? No doubt you'll re-install the OS from the built-in CD-ROM drive, as all Apple machines already do now. > >Good plan, system administrators will love this machine. No doubt >corporate types will beat down Apple's door to buy it. Quite clearly, this machine is not designed as a Corporate machine. One look at the physical design alone is enough to establish that this is for home use. Apple continues to sell quite traditionally designed machines for THAT market segment. ---- And now that we've all hashed and re-hashed the merits of this day-old computer, can we return to discussing our 10-year old classics? Let's all agree to meet and re-evaluate the iMac in 2008. From engine at chac.org Thu May 7 18:47:29 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980507164729.00f45ea0@pop.batnet.com> At 16:15 5/7/98 -0700, Kai wrote: >One word: "Twiggy". (Lisa 1 floppy) Agreed, but: The Twiggy drive was superseded by the Sony 400K 3.5, which worked fine in the Lisa, went on to work fine in the Mac 128, and has been the progenitor of a line of totally blameless drives. If Steve is tarring the 3.5 with the brush of the Twiggy, he's doing it in the teeth of evidence that he's thoroughly familiar with. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 7 19:30:50 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac Message-ID: I don't know if I'd characterize the Sony 400K as "totally blameless", since the floppy drives in all of my other old systems (both 5.25" and 3.5") have about a 5% dead-on-acquire rate, while the Mac 128s I find are maybe 75% in the dead floppy department. The 800K drives were much more reliable. The big 400K chassis has lots of lubricant on it which after 10 years or so turns into a rubber cement consistency and gums up the works. There's nothing to do but to hit the whole thing with TV Tuner cleaner and re-lube it. Pain in the butt, if you ask me. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Kip Crosby [mailto:engine@chac.org] Sent: Thursday, May 07, 1998 4:47 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: RE: the new Apple iMac At 16:15 5/7/98 -0700, Kai wrote: >One word: "Twiggy". (Lisa 1 floppy) Agreed, but: The Twiggy drive was superseded by the Sony 400K 3.5, which worked fine in the Lisa, went on to work fine in the Mac 128, and has been the progenitor of a line of totally blameless drives. If Steve is tarring the 3.5 with the brush of the Twiggy, he's doing it in the teeth of evidence that he's thoroughly familiar with. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 7 17:06:13 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 7, 98 02:14:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 615 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980507/3ce56e79/attachment.ksh From adam at merlin.net.au Thu May 7 18:53:43 1998 From: adam at merlin.net.au (Adam Jenkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: <19980507231042.12391.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Looks ok, but not really to my taste. But I can't see it having much success - the problem in the consumer market (which I gather this is aimed for) is that impressions count for everything. People think they want a floppy, as all computers have one, a CD-Rom drive, and expansion. Whether or not they actually need them is a moot point. I assume that version 2 will have the drives. Remember the reaction to the Apple ][c? It didn't matter that all of the things most people wanted to add to the expansion slots were already built into the computer - the ][ had expansion slots, the ][+ had slots and the ][e had slots Therefore a lot of people weren't interested in buying the ][c. It was still clearly a success, but this did limit sales. The iMac is even worse. It does follow with my impressions of Steve Jobs. He is indeed a man with vision, but there is only really the one vision and he doesn't like anyone elses. This isn't a bad thing, as it is a good idea, but I fear it is part of the reason so many of the most interesting projects at Apple were cut. They just didn't match Jobs' idea of what was worthwhile. Adam. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 7 19:35:35 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: S100 speech boards Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1712 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980508/202caf53/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 7 17:14:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products In-Reply-To: <199805072116.VAA12630@cyber2.servtech.com> from "Christian Fandt" at May 7, 98 05:10:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 801 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980507/7742c2ca/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 7 17:02:21 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: Proposal: "Legacy" Open Products Partition In-Reply-To: <000101bd79e1$ff950280$8e67bcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at May 7, 98 08:59:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3269 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980507/4c6478d6/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu May 7 21:38:16 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Thu, 7 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > >> >> Anyone see the new Apple iMac unveiled today? I like it. Instant >> classic. > >Is it just me, or does that thing look just like a DEC VT220? You're the third person I've heard say that in the last two day's (I was the first). If three people think it, it must be true :^) Hmmmm, wouldn't that look cool sitting on top of my PDP-11/44 as the system console :^) Gotta agree about the instant classic, but a lot of people think it's ugly, and I'm inclined to agree, but am reserving judgement until I actually see one. >BTW, how much are used 20th Aniversary Macs going for now? Last I saw, MacMall was selling new ones for about $2000, but they aren't in the catalogue that came today. Me, I want the new laptop they announced yesterday. My PowerBook 520c has a dead screen and the new laptop with 128Mb of RAM added would TOTALLY blow my 8500/180 away! Drool! I like the more rounded design compared to everything since the PowerBooks went PPC. Now if only the G4's would come out so the G3 accelerators would drop to next to nothing :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu May 7 21:49:47 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8BA@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: >If this new Mac has no removeable media, what happens when the hard >drive breaks? How do you re-install the OS? Off the net? Catch-22, OS >isn't running, no TCP/IP stack. Off the USB? OK, then the boot ROM >supports bootable media from the USB? I'm impressed, even PCs don't Guess again, you drop the CD in the CD-ROM drive and boot off the CD. Furthermore, if it's attached to a network with a Rhapsody server, you should be able to netboot it from the server. Your sarcasm is uncalled for, have you ever even used a Mac, or at least a modern one? As for the floppy drive question, it doesn't need it, but Apple apparently has a USB based floppy in the works. Personally it looks like a pretty good little machine for it's intended target. The only thing about it that I think is a mistake is it's lack of an external SCSI port. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu May 7 20:51:48 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:44 2005 Subject: S100 speech boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <358f63c6.1138494909@hoser> Oh wow - I'd *love* to have a Computalker! I wanted one SOOOO bad when I was 15, had just built my IMSAI, and had just seen "Wargames", but they were SOOOO expensive! I even got the demo cassette with recorded speech from one. I still have it. I've had lots of computers with speech synthesizers on them since then, but I've still always wanted a CT1. Would you be interested in selling it, or trading it for something? There's a blurb about it in the Tandy catalog on my web page, in the "accessory boards" section. "Highly Intelligible, Quite Natural Sounding Speech, Uses Standard S-100 Bus, Phono Jack Audio Output. Sounds are defined in real time under software control. The synthesizer is controlled by 9 acoustic parameters which represent the phonetic structure of human speech. They are transmitted to the CT-1 at a rate of 500 to 900 bytes per second, depending on the data compression techniques used." On Fri, 8 May 1998 01:35:35 +0100 (BST), you wrote: > >One is a Computalker CT1 Speech Systhesiser. It contains a pair of potted >modules (Formant and Control), a few TTL chips, a DAC and some analogue >stuff. There's an RCA (phono) socket, presumably audio out. I know >_nothing_ about this board - does anyone recognise it. > >The other board is a Heuristics Speechlab. It's essentially a speech >input board and contains some analogue filters, an ADC, etc. I got a >hardware manual (including schematics) with this one. There are also 3 >paper tapes (Hardware test, speech BASIC, speech recognition demo). I've >not read these yet, but a quick glance by eye makes me thing they're >Intel hex object programs. Alas I don't have the software manual. Does >anyone recognise this unit? > >-tony -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 7 21:20:09 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac Message-ID: <199805080220.AA02780@world.std.com> I finished posting those pictures. http://linux.epchs.k12.il.us/dseagrav Does anyone want a picture of anything special in there? ------- From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Thu May 7 17:49:12 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: What's up with Aaron Finney? In-Reply-To: <13353904242.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <199805080246.WAA26998@mail.cgocable.net> Hi guys, I was trying to contact by email this guy Aaron but I got bounced. What's up with him? Thanks Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From yowza at yowza.com Thu May 7 21:50:32 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: <199805080220.AA02780@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 May 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > Further, I'm working on a z280 design and am seriously considering > no floppy. Why? Eats power and space for intermittent use at best. > I'd rather use a utility I wrote years ago to transfer files via > serial port (back when no two machines had the same format or size > floppy). I even intend to put the whole OS and then some in EEprom > as it's cheaper and faster that floppy or hard disk. Many subnotebooks took this route by making the floppy an external add-on. The HP OmniBook 300 had no provision for a floppy other than a third-party device that hung off the parallel port. The Compaq Aero and Toshiba Libretto took the PCMCIA floppy approach. My favorite was the DEC Ultra, which put the floppy in a snap-on wedge that went under the laptop, so you could leave it connected without the headache of a floppy drive dangling from a cable that the other approaches had. But I remember one computer from the early 80's (don't remember the name), where the floppy was the computer -- a small SBC mounted on top of the floppy, and that's all there was. -- Doug From Mzthompson at aol.com Thu May 7 21:50:36 1998 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Fwd: 75 lbs of DEC Ultrix manual for free Message-ID: <2e32650f.355272fd@aol.com> Found on comp.sys.dec - if interested please reply to the originator - webdolphin@my-dejanews.com This amounts to around 20-25 three ring binders, and is good information on Unix operations, processes, and commands even if you don't have Ultrix. Mike ------------------------------------------------------ Subject: 75 lbs of DEC Ultrix manual for free From: webdolphin@my-dejanews.com Date: Thu, May 7, 1998 15:59 EDT Message-id: <6it0a3$gki$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Hi all, Anyone interested in a complete set of Digital Ultrix manuals dating from 1990/1991? I am assuming they are complete, given a lot of them are still shrinkwrapped. Email me with your physical address with a Fedex or UPS account number if you want the stuff. Otherwise the box is going into the dumpster come next Thursday. Allister From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Thu May 7 18:04:44 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Avices on reviving any H/Z-88/89/90 and H/Z-19 series. In-Reply-To: <13353904242.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <199805080301.XAA00810@mail.cgocable.net> Hi guys! Back in mid '90 and '91 I was assigned to repair these Z-19 terminals as job experience: What I discovered so far: Solder joints breakages or bad solder joints (you can't tell by looking!). Found on the little PCB with tall, large caps with rectifiers, vidoe board for the HV and yoke, video. I think the regulation is everywhere else even on the logic board! Rarely I see bad semiconductors on that video board besides few logic boards blown byself from age or lightening strike (still easily repairable!). Some did had heat problems. The top shell is hinged from back seam. On both sides, there is a notched moveable spring loaded plates, you can see the edge with a space in it, move it back or towards you as you're using that machine while pulling up the case. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From RTSJackson at aol.com Thu May 7 22:35:39 1998 From: RTSJackson at aol.com (RTSJackson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: TRS80 manual Message-ID: <8c6f4373.35527d8c@aol.com> I am trying to locate a manual for a TRS 80 model 100 or 102. Can you help? A photo-copy will do nicely. Thank you for your help. I'm located in Jackson, Mississippi. Steven Froehlich From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu May 7 21:27:40 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: (Same Apple Here?) Re: the new Apple iMac Message-ID: <003701bd7a28$e4e2ef00$af67bcc1@hotze> Hi. It just occured to me: Apple is known (with the ][) to have pioneered low cost floppy drives. They're the ones that made it a good alternitive to tape. But still, I agree, floppies arn't really an important part today, other than a remembrance of the past. (Has anyone seen those "Download warehouses" wherer you download software?) Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Kai Kaltenbach To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 3:34 AM Subject: RE: the new Apple iMac >I don't know if I'd characterize the Sony 400K as "totally blameless", since >the floppy drives in all of my other old systems (both 5.25" and 3.5") have >about a 5% dead-on-acquire rate, while the Mac 128s I find are maybe 75% in >the dead floppy department. The 800K drives were much more reliable. The >big 400K chassis has lots of lubricant on it which after 10 years or so >turns into a rubber cement consistency and gums up the works. There's >nothing to do but to hit the whole thing with TV Tuner cleaner and re-lube >it. Pain in the butt, if you ask me. > >Kai > >-----Original Message----- >From: Kip Crosby [mailto:engine@chac.org] >Sent: Thursday, May 07, 1998 4:47 PM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: RE: the new Apple iMac > > >At 16:15 5/7/98 -0700, Kai wrote: >>One word: "Twiggy". (Lisa 1 floppy) > >Agreed, but: The Twiggy drive was superseded by the Sony 400K 3.5, which >worked fine in the Lisa, went on to work fine in the Mac 128, and has been >the progenitor of a line of totally blameless drives. If Steve is tarring >the 3.5 with the brush of the Twiggy, he's doing it in the teeth of >evidence that he's thoroughly familiar with. > >__________________________________________ >Kip Crosby engine@chac.org > http://www.chac.org/index.html >Computer History Association of California > From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu May 7 21:56:48 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Proposal: "Legacy" Open Products Partition Message-ID: <004401bd7a2d$09b33b60$af67bcc1@hotze> >On the other hand, since DEC, HP and Tektronix have all helped me with >parts/docs for totally ancient machines, I am recomending those companies >to others. Exactly. This machine's a Compaq. Now, at the time, I solemnly thought that they were the best PC's available. Now, since then, I've had problems with the videocard, BIOS, busses, etc. When I contact their tech support, in general, they'll give me any solution that costs money, or charge me money for their time. >Be careful here. Ditto. >Some companies believe that they _are_ responsible for the information, >and any use to which it may be put. On several occasions I have been >refused a service manual because 'If you try to repair it and make a >mistake you could be killed' No amount of telling them that it's even >more dangerous to do the repair without the service manual worked. OK. So we'll need to say something like "No longer NEED be responsible for information." They need to share it, not give it. >It appears that there are too many lawyers who are there to put the blame >on somebody else when the customer makes a mistakes. I am not happy about >this, but.... > >Some companies will release 'safe' information (software sources, CPU >board schematics', but not 'dangerous' information (schematics of >monitors and PSUs, for example). I see. We'll need a disclaimer: "Anyinformation you recieve here could ultimately be harardous to your heatlh. DO NOT OPERATE HEAVY MACHINERY WHILE READING A TECHNICAL DOCUMENT." (Last sentence lighthearted.) >If we do convince companies to release information, we'd need to have >some proper legal document which removed any responsibility from the >company. You use this info and hurt yourself - it's your fault. Yep. Does anyone know how the GPL was made???? >> 2) Central orginazation. Something like GNU, but less proffesional. It >> would contain all archives collected, as well as user-made enhancements, >> notes or other docs. (For example: Getting a ST 251 to work under > >You'd need to make it very clear which notes were 'official' and which >were 3rd party. Ditto. Also, we'd need to prioritize companies. Companies that were most likely to give us info first, and then less last. So that if we had 5 or 6 industry juggernauts giving us information, then possibly a company like Sharp just might. Tim D. Hotze From yowza at yowza.com Thu May 7 23:02:21 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: TRS80 manual In-Reply-To: <8c6f4373.35527d8c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 May 1998, RTSJackson wrote: > I am trying to locate a manual for a TRS 80 model 100 or 102. Can you help? > A photo-copy will do nicely. How about a web-based manual? Lots of useful info at: http://smack.dillernet.com/m100/d.html -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Fri May 8 00:05:02 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Low-end Unix (was: TI99: Anyone reading this with a TI-99/4A?) References: <3.0.16.19980506181843.3f4f29da@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3552927E.C0FD6F0B@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 02:12 PM 5/3/98 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > >Your knowledge is limited. Unix was started and lived for years on > >PDP-11s (a 16 bit machine) in the form of V5, V6, V7 and 2.9BSD and > >2.11BSD. I may add it was on other machines like the Interdatas. > > I have heard tell (from a very reliable source) of a version of Unix > written for the Radio Shack Model 100 (8085, 32K max). (And no, it's not > available, and yes, he's tried to get the company that did it to release it.) Somebody may have ported something similar to OS-9 the Mod 100, but no way this side of Hell would it run anything like a real Unix -- even Radio Shack's first Xenix had a 70k kernel. A set of Unix-like commands, that's not impossible though hard to implement in a machine with interpretive BASIC as its core OS. Look at the MKS toolkit of Unix utilities for MS-DOS -- they ran just fine on a 256k Tandy 2000. which demonstrates that they used standard system calls and vectors instead of the calls to specific IBM hardware locations that seemed necessary to most MS-DOS programmers. > I thought someone had said that CP/M was based on Unix? Or was that one > of the PDP opsys? Gary based the command set and most utilities he did on RT-11 -- and some parts of Unix share that ancestry. MS-DOS, originally cloned from CP/M, gained a lot of imports from Unix with v2.0 because of the Xenix project. > >I find the idea of not less than 32bits, 200mhz cpus and large memory > >being a must to be patently retrorevisionist to the history of what was > >done before those things were available. These things are only a "must" to run the bloated applications that keep showing up simply because the new machines can run them. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From dastar at wco.com Fri May 8 00:22:12 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Off-topic help request Message-ID: Ok, how come when I'm using a windows95 based telnet client I get all sorts of wacky-assed errors when I'm using PINE, like "Folder closed due to access error" and "Folder reduced to 0 bytes" and "error this" and "error that". Basically stuff I never get when I'm using ProComm Plus. Why is this? Why is a bug-free telnet session such a chore under Windows? This is not just with the lame windows telnet either. I thought getting CRT would clear this up but it happens with that too. What's going on here? Any help would be greatly apprciated, especially in private e-mail. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/05/98] From ClaudioPuviani at sprintmail.com Fri May 8 00:21:57 1998 From: ClaudioPuviani at sprintmail.com (Claudio Puviani) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Low-end Unix (was: TI99: Anyone reading this with a TI-99/4A?) In-Reply-To: <3552927E.C0FD6F0B@cnct.com> Message-ID: <000401bd7a41$38e77e00$64ffffdf@ppro-ntw.puviani.com> Ward Griffiths wrote: > Somebody may have ported something similar to OS-9 the Mod 100, but > no way this side of Hell would it run anything like a real Unix -- > even Radio Shack's first Xenix had a 70k kernel. To quote Dennis Ritchie: "On the PDP-7 UNIX system everything was written in assembly language... we only had 4k words of memory for user programs on the PDP-7..." Clearly, a Model 100 would have been a much more powerful system for hosting the first version of UNIX. Even the PDP-11 that eventually replaced the PDP-7 could address at most 64k. I guess that must have been a way on the OTHER side of Hell. ----------------------------- Claudio Puviani ClaudioPuviani@sprintmail.com From gram at cnct.com Fri May 8 01:10:07 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products References: <199805071548.LAA02840@crobin.home.org> <3.0.1.32.19980507103536.00a69d50@pc> <199805072116.VAA12630@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-ID: <3552A1BF.C31ADF7C@cnct.com> Christian Fandt wrote: > This is a bell-ringer with many companies who pay too much attention to > "The Bottom Line". Even my company's bean counters panic when they find > that obsolete parts have been setting on the shelf for more than a year or > so. "Call the Dumpster Brigade! We've got an emergency in Finished Goods" > is the call from the company comptroller. We're a small-to-mid sized > company, so sometimes we can negotiate with the comptroller so salvage some > stuff. The IRS socks it to all companies to pay tax on all of their parts > inventory. If it is not making money (as in being obsolete and not many > repair parts being sold) then trash it. Otherwise, a company could be bled > dry of its financial resources over a period of time from being taxed too > much for too long. And some people wonder why I'm such an Anarchist/Libertarian. In theory, (ask OJ), you can't be tried twice for the same crime. "Inventory" tax means that for as long as you hold the merchandise, you will continue to be taxed every bloody year unless you bite the bullet and throw the stuff away. That makes it damned hard to go into business fixing old equipment that doesn't break often or for that matter being a used-book dealer. That latter being my chosen next career. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From mor at crl.com Fri May 8 00:18:01 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Classic prices at eBay... Message-ID: <35529589.BA157BB@crl.com> Man things over on eBay are getting hairy. A Sol-20 and IMSAI 8080 recently went for over $600 ea. And the Sol-20 may not have sold because the seller's "reserve price" was not even met... Currently there is a MITS Altair 680 at $1,825 and an Apple Lisa at $500, both with over 2 days to go until the deadline. Oh well, it's back to the old thrift and scrounge circuit for me. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/tps/ From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 8 01:39:59 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Classic prices In-Reply-To: <35529589.BA157BB@crl.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Troutman wrote: > Man things over on eBay are getting hairy. A Sol-20 and IMSAI 8080 > recently went for over $600 ea. And the Sol-20 may not have sold > because the seller's "reserve price" was not even met... Currently > there is a MITS Altair 680 at $1,825 and an Apple Lisa at $500, both > with over 2 days to go until the deadline. Oh well, it's back to the > old thrift and scrounge circuit for me. Yup, computer collecting is becoming fashionable, and prices are going up everywhere on the net. You can still find good deals if you hunt in the less travelled net-ground, though. I just got a pretty good deal on an Ithaca Intersystems box, which is one of the coolest front-panel machines ever made. The guy I bought it from just sold his Altair for $200 (I missed it by >that< much!). I'm surprised that with all of the $2K Altairs sold via online auctions recently, there hasn't been more of them offered (even at that price, I guess they're still cheaper than a new laptop, which is guaranteed to lose 50% of its value in less than a year). -- Doug From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 8 06:53:17 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac Message-ID: <199805081153.AA02950@world.std.com> from "Sam Ismail" at May 7, 98 10:22:12 pm Message-ID: <199805081221.IAA11736@shell.monmouth.com> > > > Ok, how come when I'm using a windows95 based telnet client I get all > sorts of wacky-assed errors when I'm using PINE, like "Folder closed due > to access error" and "Folder reduced to 0 bytes" and "error this" and > "error that". Basically stuff I never get when I'm using ProComm Plus. > Why is this? Why is a bug-free telnet session such a chore under Windows? > This is not just with the lame windows telnet either. I thought getting > CRT would clear this up but it happens with that too. What's going on > here? Any help would be greatly apprciated, especially in private e-mail. > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com Try another telnet... Take a look at www.tucows.org at TeraTerm Pro... or the upgrade to Hilgraeve's terminal emulator that ships with windows. The Microsoft Telnet is NOT VT100 compatible. Bill From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri May 8 08:51:04 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Calculator displays Message-ID: <9804088946.AA894660717@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Some years ago, when I was secondary school (grade|high school), someone donated two calculators which sat on a side table in the school computer room. One was a nice but not that rare wind-the-handle Facit. The other was more modern and electronic. The electronic one was interesting mainly for its display. It was fluorescent (greenish digits sealed in a long glass tube), but not 7-segment. Instead, there were (I think) nine segments, all of strange curly shapes, which made up digits much easier to read than the angular, blocky, 7-segment types. But I can no longer remember how these were arranged, nor even any details like the manufacturer of the calculator. Does anyone know of machines with such displays? At what date were they made? Did anyone ever do an LCD version of these, and if not, why not? And finally, what exactly were the segments and how did they fit together? I've tried to reconstruct the arrangement, but try as I might, I can't do it in fewer than twelve segments. Philip. From cfandt at servtech.com Fri May 8 08:13:02 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Zenith Z90 In-Reply-To: References: <199805071325.NAA29923@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-ID: <199805081319.NAA04521@cyber2.servtech.com> At 19:17 07-05-98 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> At 02:34 07-05-98 +0100, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> >> >BTW, is a Z-88 (Zenith, not Sinclair for the UK people here) related to >> >this machine? Is it the cassette version or something? >> >> The H-88 (not Z-88) was a converted H-/Z-19 terminal. I never heard of a >> 'Z'-88. Do you own or have seen a H/Z-89-90-like machine marked Z-88? > >I've never seen a Z-88, so I guess it may not have existed. But the H-88 >is very similar to the H-89/Z-90 etc machines... > >The Z-89 is also a converted Z-19, at least at the hardware level. Or at >least there seems to be a Z-19 logic board in there. Never was a 'Z'-89. The differentiation between Heath/Zenith using the 'H' or 'Z' in the model name is thus: Only Heath-branded items, whether they be kit or factory assembled, had an 'H' model number (H-77, H-89, H-19, H-110, etc,). Zenith-branded items on the other hand had a 'Z' model number (Z-77, Z-90, Z-19, Z-110, etc.) and were exclusively factory assembled and sold through third-party retailers or more usually, VARs (Value Added Retailers). VARs had either exclusive or shared rights to sell ZDS equipment in a certain geographic region. Heath Company stores handled Heath-branded items along with, of course, their catalog sales and rarely ZDS-branded items. Now notice that there is an 'H'-89 and a 'Z'-90. These were machines that were mostly the same except for a few changes in the floppy disk hardware, etc. mentioned previously in this thread. Hence, the usage of the -89 and -90 numbers to apparently help differentiate between the two systems as far as available software media is concerned. Refering to Tony's statement again: ">The Z-89 is also a converted Z-19, at least at the hardware level. Or at >least there seems to be a Z-19 logic board in there.", the converted H-19 should have been the H-88 but I'm trying to recall from increasingly fuzzy memory on that. I will look that up sometime soon as I was quite interested at one time to get one of the last available conversion kits from Heath to convert an extra Z-19 terminal I had then (actually, still have) to an H-89-like machine. Still have the catalog, I think, which shows that kit. >> >> Recall I stated that the H-89/Z-90 was built in the same case as the H/Z-19 >> essentially making a single-unit computer with terminal. Kind of handy >> since the Z-90 machines were often sold to business owners who had >> small-size offices or whatever. Anyway, Heath Company offered a kit (have >> to lookup the model number in my old Heath catalog collection -think it was >> H88-1) consisting of boards, sheet metal, cables, etc. to make a bare-bones >> H-89, typicaly dubbed H-88. Yes, a cassette interface was available, maybe >> with this bare-bones thing and/or a stipped down actual H-89. > >I _think_ an H-88 is the cassette version. Actually, there were different >ROMs depending on whether you had cassette or 2 disk controllers (my >machine couldn't take a cassette interface even if I had one) I do vaguely recall something about ROM differences between the very early H-89's and later ones and this cassette thing was the major diff. IIRC. > >> >> The earliest floppy disk system for the 8-bitters was the model H-17 used >> with the H-8. Used the hard sectored Siemens 5.25" floppy drives (1,2 or 3 >> drives in the case) with an H-17 controller. The H/Z-77 was the >> soft-sectored 5.25" floppy disk system with 1 or 2 drives and was offered >> first with the H-89 and Z-90. > >I think I've got both of those. I've got a single internal Siemens drive >linked to a hard sectored controller (only) - a PCB with a USRT and some >TTL on it. Then I've got a 'double density' controller board using the >FD 1797 chip linked to the 2 external drives. > >> Anyway, the H-8 could use any of these drive systems and the H/Z-89/90 the > >Yes, the H-8 is mentioned in my manuals (I have a PAM-8 monitor ROM >source listing in the HDOS manual, for example..) Yes, Heath provided virtually *everything*! I think even PAL listings were provided with the H/Z-100 machines along with its thick monitor ROM listing. Will have to check my H/Z-100 technical manuals on this too. (Boy, I'm piling up a bunch of notes of stuff to look up based on this thread.) Regatds, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri May 8 10:25:24 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Classic prices In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at May 8, 98 01:39:59 am Message-ID: <9805081425.AA28122@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 547 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980508/16e234e9/attachment.ksh From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Fri May 8 05:46:04 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Classic prices In-Reply-To: <9805081425.AA28122@alph02.triumf.ca> References: from "Doug Yowza" at May 8, 98 01:39:59 am Message-ID: <199805081443.KAA15650@mail.cgocable.net> > > (even at that price, I > > guess they're still cheaper than a new laptop, which is guaranteed to > > lose 50% of its value in less than a year). > > Anybody looking at computers as a financial investment is in for a > rude shock! > > To quote one of my favorite .sig lines - "Don't think of it as a new > computer. Think of it as obsolete-ready!" Well said! Still, those some guys are still trying to claw most of theirs back by asking too much. Growl. These days, I try to choose carefully and spend bit more to assure long term and greater safisation. Ditto to desktops and portables. Active displays cost is getting less moot because getting better and increasing in numbers. BTW that iMac, That is indeed markings of a Steve Jobs's mistake that has no external SCSI port on it even no PCMCIA slots. Another instant classic. BTW, b/w or color display??? It did not say so in that apple's website and no detailed specs. Also iMac is supposed to give options for either TP or coax and PCMCIA modem. Look, there is a funny hole highlighted with electric blue ring is bass port. Wrong place. Supposed to throw back at wall or cast out into room. I have a 13" tv with that little speaker on left side, I taped a crude cardboard scoop to reflect sound towards viewers, what a difference even to deaf and hearing-impaired like me. One small item that is finally there in low-cost machine is cache. small kudos. Jason D. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 8 08:50:34 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980508085034.00b6fe10@pc> John Ruschmeyer wrote: >One thing to remember here is that your logic is based on the premise >that the information still exists. Yes, of course. I wouldn't begin a quest of begging until I was sure the item existed. No Holy Grail searches for me. I think there are several categories of "lost": 1) it's somewhere in the vaults but we can't find it, 2) it's in the vaults but no I'm too busy to get it, 3) I can't get permission to get it out, 4) I've got it but I don't want to give it to you, 5) I can't give it you, 6) We'd have to pay a lawyer to say we can give it to you, etc. down through N) the company says they don't have it but an engineer we found on the net managed to save a copy. I'm more concerned about saving what we can, and getting official permission to do so, and being able to reproduce it in a more accessible fashion than it exists now. I can't do anything about things that don't exist. Tony Duell wrote: >Exactly. One problem that PERQ-fanatics have found is just who (out of >PERQ Logic Systems, Accent Systems, ICL, Varityper, etc) own what? And perhaps this can help the argument. If a company has completely lost or disregarded an asset that we can point out that they rightfully own, perhaps they'll be more friendly if we ask to take care of it for them. Buy-outs and acquisitions tend to prune away less valuable (but no less *interesting*) technologies. My Quest involves telling Lockheed-Martin that they own the Terak. Wish me luck. :-) Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: >"Inventory" tax means that for as long as you hold the merchandise, >you will continue to be taxed every bloody year unless you bite the >bullet and throw the stuff away. In my understanding of accounting, this "tax" doesn't exist. I think the previous writer doesn't understand why the bean counters want to get rid of inventory. There are certainly exceptions that rile the blood of small- and large-L libertarians, but in my experience in US small business, you are only taxed once. A B.C. wants to reduce inventory for other reasons - it's money tied up in junk that's not selling, not gaining interest, and isn't growing in value. When it comes time to dumpster it, it becomes a write-off loss and its original cost is probably taken as a deduction of some kind, which alone makes it valuable to the bottom line. So, the original poster's notion is correct - the complications of taxation tends to make companies dump old stuff. It's like property tax - it forces people to find a way for the land to generate at least that much cash, which discourages people from buying land and simply preserving it as-is. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Fri May 8 10:31:20 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980502162458.006c31a0@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <199805081505.KAA02378@onyx.southwind.net> I'll be gone all next week, but I'll be back! Jeff From dastar at wco.com Fri May 8 11:08:19 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Classic prices at eBay... In-Reply-To: <35529589.BA157BB@crl.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Troutman wrote: > Man things over on eBay are getting hairy. A Sol-20 and IMSAI 8080 > recently went for over $600 ea. And the Sol-20 may not have sold > because the seller's "reserve price" was not even met... Currently > there is a MITS Altair 680 at $1,825 and an Apple Lisa at $500, both > with over 2 days to go until the deadline. Oh well, it's back to the > old thrift and scrounge circuit for me. Come to the Vintage Compute Festival this year and you have a chance to win an IMSAI 8080. :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/05/98] From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri May 8 12:17:43 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Classic prices In-Reply-To: <199805081443.KAA15650@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at May 8, 98 10:46:04 am Message-ID: <9805081617.AA22144@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 878 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980508/e2ef2c37/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Fri May 8 11:20:50 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Calculator displays In-Reply-To: <9804088946.AA894660717@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 May 1998 Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > Some years ago, when I was secondary school (grade|high school), someone > donated two calculators which sat on a side table in the school computer > room. One was a nice but not that rare wind-the-handle Facit. The > other was more modern and electronic. > > The electronic one was interesting mainly for its display. It was > fluorescent (greenish digits sealed in a long glass tube), but not > 7-segment. Instead, there were (I think) nine segments, all of strange > curly shapes, which made up digits much easier to read than the angular, > blocky, 7-segment types. But I can no longer remember how these were > arranged, nor even any details like the manufacturer of the calculator. These are called "Nixie Tubes". But don't ask me much more about it. I just know what they're called. I have at least one nixie-tube calculator (I think, gotta go check) and had a chance to get one the other day at a thrift shop but it was priced too much for me. When I changed my mind and went back to get it, it was gone :( Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/05/98] From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri May 8 11:27:29 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: TS04 bootstrap? Message-ID: <13354057269.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Does anyone have the TS04 bootstrap? ------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri May 8 12:33:48 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Calculator displays In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 8, 98 09:20:50 am Message-ID: <9805081633.AA03693@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2222 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980508/c2202e80/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 8 12:44:29 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Calculator displays Message-ID: <199805081744.AA02340@world.std.com> Nixies are also not a generic term; it's trademarked by, I believe, <> The electronic one was interesting mainly for its display. It was <> fluorescent (greenish digits sealed in a long glass tube), but not <> 7-segment. Instead, there were (I think) nine segments, all of strange <> curly shapes, which made up digits much easier to read than the angular <> blocky, 7-segment types. But I can no longer remember how these were <> arranged, nor even any details like the manufacturer of the calculator < Message-ID: On Fri, 8 May 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > AmproLB a complete z80, 64k, 2serial, printer port and SCSI on a board > the size of a 5.25" floppy. I have one. > > I also have a SB180 that is faster with 4x the ram on a card half the > size. > > Neither stepped around the problem by putting all of the base software on > rom. The EPSON PX-8 did. I also did it for a s100 system years before > that. With EPROMS, EEProms and Flash ram as dense as they are a 1.44mb > floppy seems a lot of work. > > Allison I learned from a friend who picked it up (for $3.10) at the swapmeet that HP made a lunchbox that had HP-UX all in ROM. No drives in the box. - don From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri May 8 13:15:09 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: RSTS isn't done with me yet... Message-ID: <13354076870.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> WHen trying to boot MS0:, from INIT 8.0-07, it halts at 20. I boot 8.0 off the DU0:, say BO MS0:, the tape shuffles back and forth awhile, and it stops at 20. What's that mean? ------- From donm at cts.com Fri May 8 13:31:27 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980508085034.00b6fe10@pc> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 May 1998, John Foust wrote: **** snip **** > Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > >"Inventory" tax means that for as long as you hold the merchandise, > >you will continue to be taxed every bloody year unless you bite the > >bullet and throw the stuff away. > > In my understanding of accounting, this "tax" doesn't exist. I think California has, or at least had, a business property tax that was levied on the value of saleable items on, IIRC, the 31st of March. Convair, then here in San Diego, would regularly fly out to Arizona anything that was airworthy to escape that tax. - don > the previous writer doesn't understand why the bean counters want to > get rid of inventory. There are certainly exceptions that rile > the blood of small- and large-L libertarians, but in my experience > in US small business, you are only taxed once. A B.C. wants to > reduce inventory for other reasons - it's money tied up in junk > that's not selling, not gaining interest, and isn't growing in value. > When it comes time to dumpster it, it becomes a write-off loss and > its original cost is probably taken as a deduction of some kind, > which alone makes it valuable to the bottom line. > > So, the original poster's notion is correct - the complications of > taxation tends to make companies dump old stuff. It's like property > tax - it forces people to find a way for the land to generate at > least that much cash, which discourages people from buying land and > simply preserving it as-is. > > - John > Jefferson Computer Museum > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 8 13:35:08 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 May 1998, Don Maslin wrote: > I learned from a friend who picked it up (for $3.10) at the swapmeet that > HP made a lunchbox that had HP-UX all in ROM. No drives in the box. The Integral PC! Tell him I'll give him $10 for it :-) It is 68K-based and has a small subset of HP-UX in ROM, but it really wants to boot from a disk hanging off its HPIB bus. The HP OmniBook 300 I mentioned not only had DOS/Windows in ROM, but a bunch of Microsoft apps as well (Word, Excel, etc). Microsoft built special XIP versions for HP, but Windows was too dumb to handle XIP ROM programs and virtual memory at the same time, so you were limited to "standard mode" (286 mode). Of course, these days, Windows CE devices have just about everything in ROM, can handle XIP and an MMU, and have no floppies. -- Doug From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri May 8 13:36:57 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: OOps, I halt a 10, not 20/ Message-ID: <13354080838.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri May 8 14:01:42 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: No wait... I got another tape to boot... Message-ID: <13354085343.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I found a 3rd tape that boots OK. Seems the first 2 that I thought were good might not be! Sorry for being a pest. ------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri May 8 16:05:03 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Calculator displays In-Reply-To: <199805081744.AA02204@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at May 8, 98 01:44:20 pm Message-ID: <9805082005.AA29818@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 741 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980508/383ff957/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 8 15:54:50 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Calculator displays In-Reply-To: <9804088946.AA894660717@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 May 1998 Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > The electronic one was interesting mainly for its display. It was > fluorescent (greenish digits sealed in a long glass tube), but not > 7-segment. Instead, there were (I think) nine segments, all of strange > curly shapes, which made up digits much easier to read than the angular, > blocky, 7-segment types. But I can no longer remember how these were > arranged, nor even any details like the manufacturer of the calculator. > > Does anyone know of machines with such displays? Somebody was describing this same calculator to me yesterday. It was the Sharp EL-8 and had a 9-segment display. > At what date were they made? Weren't these the first microprocessor-based calcs (4004) from around 1974? -- Doug From lgroebe at insidermarketing.com Fri May 8 16:05:06 1998 From: lgroebe at insidermarketing.com (Larry Groebe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Calculator displays Message-ID: <19980508155933.02197df8.in@insidermarketing.com> >On Fri, 8 May 1998 Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > >> The electronic one was interesting mainly for its display. It was >> fluorescent (greenish digits sealed in a long glass tube), but not >> 7-segment. Instead, there were (I think) nine segments, all of strange >> curly shapes, which made up digits much easier to read than the angular, >> blocky, 7-segment types. But I can no longer remember how these were >> arranged, nor even any details like the manufacturer of the calculator. >> >> Does anyone know of machines with such displays? > >Somebody was describing this same calculator to me yesterday. It was the >Sharp EL-8 and had a 9-segment display. > >> At what date were they made? > >Weren't these the first microprocessor-based calcs (4004) from around >1974? > The EL-8 was Sharp's original portable calculator from 1971 (in Japan in late 1970) and cost $345 back then (for your basic 4-function calculator!) The display is listed in my reference book as a flourescent -type tube display. I don't believe it used the 4004 chip - relatively few calculators actually did use the 4004. --Larry From william at ans.net Fri May 8 16:13:06 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Vigilance and Vacuum Tubes (fwd) Message-ID: Found on another list... A talk on the SAGE System (1956-63) will be given at Moffett Field on Tuesday evening May 19, 5:30-7 PM. SAGE was Semi-Automatic Ground Environment, embodied as 22 monster computers (250 tons) each with 49,000 vacuum tubes consuming 3 megawatts of power. Parts of the last SAGE system, decommissioned in 1982, will be behind the speakers. For details, see www.computerhistory.org/sage. William Donzelli william@ans.net From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri May 8 16:24:49 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980508124010.0a4f4a50@ricochet.net> At 02:14 PM 5/7/98 -0400, you wrote: >Some of the folks at Motorola are also good about stuff like this. Many >times I have needed data sheets for some of their more obscure, long >obsolete chips, and they came thru with free photocopies from some ancient >databooks. I dunno how efficient it would be, but perhaps interested parties could volunteer to format and html-ize old databooks, etc. for companies. They wouldn't have to do any effort (except provide the source documents) but then they could post them on their web site and make them available to anyone. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 8 16:24:31 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Calculator displays In-Reply-To: <19980508155933.02197df8.in@insidermarketing.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 May 1998, Larry Groebe wrote: > The EL-8 was Sharp's original portable calculator from 1971 (in Japan in > late 1970) and cost $345 back then (for your basic 4-function > calculator!) The display is listed in my reference book as a flourescent > -type tube display. That sounds right. The guy I talked to mentioned that it was IC-based, not micro-based. > I don't believe it used the 4004 chip - relatively few calculators > actually did use the 4004. I think it was a deal between Busicom and Intel for a calculator chip that produced the 4004 and started the microprocessor revolution, right? -- Doug From lgroebe at insidermarketing.com Fri May 8 16:35:32 1998 From: lgroebe at insidermarketing.com (Larry Groebe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Calculator displays Message-ID: <19980508162959.02355ccd.in@insidermarketing.com> >On Fri, 8 May 1998, Larry Groebe wrote: > >> The EL-8 was Sharp's original portable calculator from 1971 (in Japan in >> late 1970) and cost $345 back then (for your basic 4-function >> calculator!) The display is listed in my reference book as a flourescent >> -type tube display. > >That sounds right. The guy I talked to mentioned that it was IC-based, >not micro-based. > >> I don't believe it used the 4004 chip - relatively few calculators >> actually did use the 4004. > >I think it was a deal between Busicom and Intel for a calculator chip that >produced the 4004 and started the microprocessor revolution, right? > >-- Doug True- although IIRC Busicom didn't actually use the 4004 as things worked out. There's a nice webpage devoted to the 4004 at: http://home1.gte.net/ccourson/4004.htm --Larry From gram at cnct.com Fri May 8 19:55:14 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac References: Message-ID: <3553A972.3586A76D@cnct.com> Don Maslin wrote: > I learned from a friend who picked it up (for $3.10) at the swapmeet that > HP made a lunchbox that had HP-UX all in ROM. No drives in the box. Yes, the incredibly sexy HP Integral. I lusted after that machine just from the ads in Unix World, then I got to play with one a bit at a show at Cal State Northridge, and then I wanted one _real bad_. Since all I had to play with at the time were Tandy 6000 Xenix boxen. I've recovered a bit since then, but I'll double Doug's bid. (Since the AT&T 7300 systems I have are even sexier than the Integral though harder to stash under an airplane seat.) -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Fri May 8 20:14:25 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products References: <3.0.1.32.19980508085034.00b6fe10@pc> Message-ID: <3553ADF1.39A0A589@cnct.com> John Foust wrote: > Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > >"Inventory" tax means that for as long as you hold the merchandise, > >you will continue to be taxed every bloody year unless you bite the > >bullet and throw the stuff away. > > In my understanding of accounting, this "tax" doesn't exist. I think > the previous writer doesn't understand why the bean counters want to > get rid of inventory. There are certainly exceptions that rile > the blood of small- and large-L libertarians, but in my experience > in US small business, you are only taxed once. A B.C. wants to > reduce inventory for other reasons - it's money tied up in junk > that's not selling, not gaining interest, and isn't growing in value. > When it comes time to dumpster it, it becomes a write-off loss and > its original cost is probably taken as a deduction of some kind, > which alone makes it valuable to the bottom line. There's no federal inventory tax that I know of, but most of the state governments have them. The biggest tax from a B.C.'s point of view is generally the cost of warehousing -- rent, property tax, lack of income from the real estate used to house the merch. And the B.C.s rule the world when it comes to disposing of the assetts of former companies that are (if lucky) now divisions in the acquiring firm. (I'm a small-l libertarian when I'm in a good mood, (rare lately, it must be age) and a big-A anarchist the rest of the time (occasionally leaning toward nihilism when my mood gets _real_ bad)). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From jruschme at exit109.com Fri May 8 20:06:02 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac References: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8BA@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: <3553ABFA.D7E3A65C@exit109.com> Jack Peacock wrote: > > If this new Mac has no removeable media, what happens when the hard > drive breaks? How do you re-install the OS? Off the net? Catch-22, OS > isn't running, no TCP/IP stack. Off the USB? OK, then the boot ROM > supports bootable media from the USB? Bootable CD-ROM, of course, which Macs have had for a while. I presume the system, like the Performas et al., will come with a bootable CD which can be used to restore the system to "factory" condition. <<>> From jruschme at exit109.com Fri May 8 20:25:09 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Looking for 68851 PMMU References: Message-ID: <3553B075.D4953D56@exit109.com> Since some of you seem to know the sources for old/obscure chips... I'm in the process of sorting through various Mac II pieces around here and was considering setting up NetBSD on a spare system. I have one board which already has the FDHD upgrade, but I`d still need to find a 68851 PMMU. (For those who don't know, the 68851 is the Paged Memory Management Unit (PMMU) for the 68020 processor.) Do any of you know of an inexpensive source for one? Or have a spare laying around? I've looked at the usual mac upgrade places and have seen prices of about $50. For that price, I could just upgrade to a IIx. (I already have a spare IIx motherboard, just need to get another ROM SIMM.) I just figured that and FDHD upgrade set was to good to just sit idle... :-) Thanks... <<>> From gram at cnct.com Fri May 8 20:40:52 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Off-topic help request References: <199805081221.IAA11736@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3553B424.310A776@cnct.com> Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > Ok, how come when I'm using a windows95 based telnet client I get all > > sorts of wacky-assed errors when I'm using PINE, like "Folder closed due > > to access error" and "Folder reduced to 0 bytes" and "error this" and > > "error that". Basically stuff I never get when I'm using ProComm Plus. > > Why is this? Why is a bug-free telnet session such a chore under Windows? > > This is not just with the lame windows telnet either. I thought getting > > CRT would clear this up but it happens with that too. What's going on > > here? Any help would be greatly apprciated, especially in private e-mail. > > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > > Try another telnet... Take a look at www.tucows.org at TeraTerm Pro... > or the upgrade to Hilgraeve's terminal emulator that ships with windows. > The Microsoft Telnet is NOT VT100 compatible. Or try another operating system. I've never had a problem with telnet from this (or any other) Linux box. (Yes, at the moment I'm using [the Linux version of] Netscape for mail, since all ASCII mail programs puke on the crap attached to spam [PINE is more forgiving than most, but I really really hate the program for other reasons -- give me ELM], but I generally have a telnet session an alt-key over doing something else -- not counting the local activity I have the box doing, like providing my wife most of her net access). If I'm reading my mail away from the console in the basement, it's likely from a serial-linked terminal emulator pretending to be a VT-52. Vidtex on the TRS-80 Model 2, where I'm trying to write a novel in my "spare" time, using my favorite word processor, Scripsit 2.0, (c) 1980. You can still get 8" floppies from Global. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 8 18:12:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:45 2005 Subject: Proposal: "Legacy" Open Products Partition In-Reply-To: <004401bd7a2d$09b33b60$af67bcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at May 8, 98 05:56:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2405 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980509/9db7cb4f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 8 18:29:54 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Zenith Z90 In-Reply-To: <199805081319.NAA04521@cyber2.servtech.com> from "Christian Fandt" at May 8, 98 09:13:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1871 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980509/43030353/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 8 18:45:58 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: S100 speech boards In-Reply-To: <358f63c6.1138494909@hoser> from "Bill Richman" at May 8, 98 01:51:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1041 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980509/96e4ae68/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Fri May 8 21:28:57 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac References: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8BA@mail.simconv.com> <3553ABFA.D7E3A65C@exit109.com> Message-ID: <3553BF69.D9C5854D@cnct.com> John Ruschmeyer wrote: > > Jack Peacock wrote: > > > > If this new Mac has no removeable media, what happens when the hard > > drive breaks? How do you re-install the OS? Off the net? Catch-22, OS > > isn't running, no TCP/IP stack. Off the USB? OK, then the boot ROM > > supports bootable media from the USB? > > Bootable CD-ROM, of course, which Macs have had for a while. > > I presume the system, like the Performas et al., will come with a > bootable > CD which can be used to restore the system to "factory" condition. And there went everything that was put on the disk after it left the factory. I'd have thought Jobs might have learned his lesson after the NeXT cube's fiasco in its original release -- or does he think that's just because the market wasn't ready for a machine with no safe (offline) storage then? but it is now? -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Fri May 8 21:37:46 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Proposal: "Legacy" Open Products Partition References: Message-ID: <3553C17A.E12EBB59@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > BTW, what _are_ the qualifications for computer repair? :-). My PERQ 1 > says 'Only qualified personnel should remove covers'. Nowhere does it > state what the qualifications are, so I assume I have them :-) Well, the qualifications are either "suicidal" or "smart enough to pour piss out of a boot and then not stand in the puddle while working on electrical equipment". I'm probably both, but I'm on record as not being much of a hardware hacker due to my tendency to burn myself whenever I'm foolish enough to attach the soldering iron to the mains. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri May 8 21:35:52 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Proposal: "Legacy" Open Products Partition Message-ID: <002501bd7af3$45b0d3e0$0667bcc1@hotze> >More seriously, we need something like 'This information is provided in >good faith, and is believed to be accurate. However, neither the original >manufacturer or <%group distributing it> can take any responsibility for >errors or omissions. Some of the procedures described in this documation >can be dangerous and should only be performed by suitably qualified >personnel' Yes, we should have "levels" of experience. So that a Level 1 job could be done with anyone that knows how to wield a screwdriver... (things such as adding RAM, a hard drive, or add-in card.), while a Level 5 should only be done with someone who's had lots of electronics experience. (Such as fixing a broken PCB or motherboard, the hard way). We could have tutorials to get a Level 1 to a Level 5, but it would still be their responsibility. >BTW, what _are_ the qualifications for computer repair? :-). My PERQ 1 >says 'Only qualified personnel should remove covers'. Nowhere does it >state what the qualifications are, so I assume I have them :-) Actually, I always thought that it was who ever could pay them enough money to become a "solution provider." Seriously, we should have the Levels as an internal rating system. I haven't seen such a system, but has one like this ever been used? (It's better to use a pre-existing system then to develop a new one, especially if the old one does what you want.) >-tony Tim D. Hotze From afritz at iname.com Fri May 8 21:39:15 1998 From: afritz at iname.com (Adam Fritzler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Looking for 68851 PMMU In-Reply-To: <3553B075.D4953D56@exit109.com> Message-ID: I got mine through Data Memory Systems (www.datamem.com). It's not currently listed on their web site, but I think I had to ask for it anyway. I got it for $29. Adam On Sat, 9 May 1998, John Ruschmeyer wrote: > Since some of you seem to know the sources for old/obscure chips... > > I'm in the process of sorting through various Mac II pieces around here > and was considering setting up NetBSD on a spare system. I have one > board > which already has the FDHD upgrade, but I`d still need to find a 68851 > PMMU. > > (For those who don't know, the 68851 is the Paged Memory Management > Unit > (PMMU) for the 68020 processor.) > > Do any of you know of an inexpensive source for one? Or have a spare > laying around? > > I've looked at the usual mac upgrade places and have seen prices of > about > $50. For that price, I could just upgrade to a IIx. (I already have a > spare > IIx motherboard, just need to get another ROM SIMM.) I just figured that > and FDHD upgrade set was to good to just sit idle... :-) > > Thanks... <<>> > ---------- Adam Fritzler afritz@iname.com http://www.afritz.base.org ---------- From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri May 8 23:13:00 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: a few new finds Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980508231300.006ce518@pop3.concentric.net> just a few new museum items: 1. TRS-80 model 100 portable manual 2. Zenith laptop model ZFL-184-01 3. Kaypro 16 20meg 1-5 1/4 FD 4. TI lowprofile KB 5. Corona model PC-21 6. Silicon Compilers D-Scan Graphic display model GR- 1104C missing kb 7. 2 Toshiba ext cd-roms 8. Sun shoebox 2 FD drives model SUNIPC-FPY2 one marked AT Compat the other PC compat 9. Beneath Apple ProDos by Don Worth and Pieter Lechner 10. 2 tech manuals for NeXT 1988 draft 11. Mac Performa 400 12. NeXT cube case 13. Apple Newton model 1000 with video tape and manuals 14. Sony ext scsi cdrom model CDU7205 15 8 ea Ti 99 game cartridges 16. Mac LCII needs HD 17. Many other non classic items waiting for their time From donm at cts.com Fri May 8 23:22:42 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: a few new finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980508231300.006ce518@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 May 1998, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > just a few new museum items: 1. TRS-80 model 100 portable manual > 2. Zenith laptop model ZFL-184-01 > 3. Kaypro 16 20meg 1-5 1/4 FD / They are fairly rare! ---------/ - don > 4. TI lowprofile KB > 5. Corona model PC-21 > 6. Silicon Compilers D-Scan Graphic display > model GR- > > 1104C missing kb > 7. 2 Toshiba ext cd-roms > 8. Sun shoebox 2 FD drives model SUNIPC-FPY2 > one marked > AT Compat the other PC compat > 9. Beneath Apple ProDos by Don Worth and > Pieter Lechner > 10. 2 tech manuals for NeXT 1988 draft > 11. Mac Performa 400 > 12. NeXT cube case > 13. Apple Newton model 1000 with video tape > and manuals > 14. Sony ext scsi cdrom model CDU7205 > 15 8 ea Ti 99 game cartridges > 16. Mac LCII needs HD > 17. Many other non classic items waiting for > their time > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From donm at cts.com Fri May 8 23:26:27 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: <3553A972.3586A76D@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 May 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Don Maslin wrote: > > > I learned from a friend who picked it up (for $3.10) at the swapmeet that > > HP made a lunchbox that had HP-UX all in ROM. No drives in the box. > > Yes, the incredibly sexy HP Integral. I lusted after that machine just > from the ads in Unix World, then I got to play with one a bit at a show > at Cal State Northridge, and then I wanted one _real bad_. Since all I > had to play with at the time were Tandy 6000 Xenix boxen. I've > recovered a bit since then, but I'll double Doug's bid. (Since the AT&T > 7300 systems I have are even sexier than the Integral though harder to > stash under an airplane seat.) > -- > Ward Griffiths > They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ I don't know that he is interested in selling it, but I'll pass the word of interest if he is. - don From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri May 8 23:27:00 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Help with AE Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980508232700.006c7e10@pop3.concentric.net> I looking for the address , web site, phone number or any info to locate a company called AE or Applied Engineering, or AE Research Corp. I need some parts from them and manuals. Thanks in advance John From everly at interpac.net Fri May 8 23:56:18 1998 From: everly at interpac.net (Loren Everly) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: newbie question. digest? Message-ID: is there any way to get this list in digest form? also hello to sam ismail and uncle roger :-). thanks, Loren. From donm at cts.com Sat May 9 00:09:20 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Calculator displays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 May 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Fri, 8 May 1998 Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > > The electronic one was interesting mainly for its display. It was > > fluorescent (greenish digits sealed in a long glass tube), but not > > 7-segment. Instead, there were (I think) nine segments, all of strange > > curly shapes, which made up digits much easier to read than the angular, > > blocky, 7-segment types. But I can no longer remember how these were > > arranged, nor even any details like the manufacturer of the calculator. > > > > Does anyone know of machines with such displays? > > Somebody was describing this same calculator to me yesterday. It was the > Sharp EL-8 and had a 9-segment display. > > > At what date were they made? > > Weren't these the first microprocessor-based calcs (4004) from around > 1974? > > -- Doug > I still have mine, though regrettably it does not respond to power now. The display tubes are 9 elements, but only 8 segments. The ninth being a decimal point. My recollection is that the numerals looked blue, but the plastic window over the tubes is about Kelly green. Does orange filtered through green look blue? The semiconductor complement consists of six HD3120 0M dips and 3 HD3121 1A dips on one card, and the following 'flatpacks' on a second card: NRD2256 DC2266 AC2261 AV2271 plus a CG1121 transistor. For its day, it was a rather nice packaging job! I well recall paying the $345 to American Express (special to card holders :} ) for it. They called it the ELSI-8, but the model number was EL-8. - don From yowza at yowza.com Sat May 9 00:26:48 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Calculator displays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 May 1998, Don Maslin wrote: > > Somebody was describing this same calculator to me yesterday. It was the > > Sharp EL-8 and had a 9-segment display. > > I still have mine, though regrettably it does not respond to power now. > The display tubes are 9 elements, but only 8 segments. The ninth being a > decimal point. My recollection is that the numerals looked blue, but the > plastic window over the tubes is about Kelly green. Does orange filtered > through green look blue? I've never seen one, but now I'm intrigued. I checked the web for a pic, and the closest I could find is a soviet calc belonging to our own Andrew Davie (where is that guy?) that is said to have a display similar to the EL-8 (and it is very cool looking): http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/c3-07.html -- doug From mor at crl.com Fri May 8 23:46:58 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Calculator displays References: Message-ID: <3553DFC2.3C93B9C6@crl.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > I've never seen one, but now I'm intrigued. I checked the web for a pic, > and the closest I could find is a soviet calc belonging to our own Andrew > Davie (where is that guy?) Busy becoming an Atari 2600 developer ;) -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From mor at crl.com Fri May 8 23:55:59 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: a few new finds References: Message-ID: <3553E1DF.48A0A803@crl.com> I guess it's Friday night brag time, so here is what I've picked up the past couple weeks: - Alpha-Micro AM1000E (x2 - one has a 16 port terminal i/f hanging off it's rear) - CompuPro System 8/16 (x3 - monster systems: 8085/8088 cpu cards, lots of RAM, lots of i/o, lots of disk space) - Mac XL (dang, hard drive spins but seems not to be working, but boots from floppy and runs fine) - Heathkit H-11 (pretty beat up and no docs or media, but I figure there's a bit of help out there) - Hewlett Packard 85 (cassette drive may be bad, or maybe it's the _one_ tape I have, otherwise it's nice) - Apple III (clean and mint) - Commodore PET 2001 (with original manuals plus about 50 other books) - Intel uScope 820 (8080 and 8085 "probe" modules and all docs - drool) - Nicolet Z80 experimenter bus w/lots of cards (Mostek modules and docs) - TRS-80 Model 4P (jittery monitor) - TRS-80 Model 12 (boots up, but I need a k/b) - PDP-11/23 (M8186) in a Plessey box w/lots of extra cards (hard drive supposedly loaded with RSX-11/M+, but I haven't managed to get it going yet) - HP Integral PC (heh, showroom beauty) - AT&T Unix PC (got the system a couple weeks ago sans k/b, but found that today) - Laser 128 - Vector Graphic MZ (Tons of boards and docs with this one) - VaxStation 3200 (has the VR290 but I need that funky cable. oh, and a drive loaded with VMS would be nice) Plus a couple hundred pounds of peripherals, books, and software for the above and other classic systems. Among the more interesting: - a Xetec Lt. Kernel "Host Adapter for C64/C128" Hmm. DB25 out. That sounds like fun. I guess I'll be needing some software to mess with this. - Zenix for Color Computer? - Cromix? AFAIR from old Byte mags this is a Unix variant for which processor? - A pair of S-100 books: "The S-100 BUS Handbook" by Bursky, and "The S-100 & Other Micro Buses" by Poe and Goodwin. - Some other cool books: "Computers Self-Taught Through Experiments" by Brayton, 1st edition, 1st printing - August 1966; "An Introduction to Microcomputers, Volume 1, Basic Concpets" by Osborne, 1976; "The 8080A BUGBOOK" by Rony, Larson and Titus; "A Hobbyist's Guide to Computer Experimentation" by Lenk. Many others along these lines. - TRS-80 Model II drive expansion box. Big box with 3 x 8" drive bays but only one drive installed. - A whole bunch of game carts I didn't already have for 2600 and TI-99/4A ;) With the backlog of stuff I already had, I've not been able to spend much time on this stuff. Obviously getting rid of the major appliances and furniture I'd been storing in my garage has made this sort of scrounging binge a bit easier on the lifestyle (extra space AND extra cash to play with)... -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/tps From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat May 9 01:25:19 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Calculator displays References: <19980508155933.02197df8.in@insidermarketing.com> Message-ID: <3553F6CE.CC9BD7CE@ndirect.co.uk> I am after a 4004 chip. Do you which calculators used one? Thank you Ciao enrico Larry Groebe wrote: > > >On Fri, 8 May 1998 Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > > >> The electronic one was interesting mainly for its display. It was > >> fluorescent (greenish digits sealed in a long glass tube), but not > >> 7-segment. Instead, there were (I think) nine segments, all of strange > >> curly shapes, which made up digits much easier to read than the angular, > >> blocky, 7-segment types. But I can no longer remember how these were > >> arranged, nor even any details like the manufacturer of the calculator. > >> > >> Does anyone know of machines with such displays? > > > >Somebody was describing this same calculator to me yesterday. It was the > >Sharp EL-8 and had a 9-segment display. > > > >> At what date were they made? > > > >Weren't these the first microprocessor-based calcs (4004) from around > >1974? > > > The EL-8 was Sharp's original portable calculator from 1971 (in Japan in > late 1970) and cost $345 back then (for your basic 4-function > calculator!) The display is listed in my reference book as a flourescent > -type tube display. > > I don't believe it used the 4004 chip - relatively few calculators > actually did use the 4004. > > --Larry -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From dastar at wco.com Sat May 9 01:02:34 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Calculator displays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 May 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Fri, 8 May 1998, Larry Groebe wrote: > > > The EL-8 was Sharp's original portable calculator from 1971 (in Japan in > > late 1970) and cost $345 back then (for your basic 4-function > > calculator!) The display is listed in my reference book as a flourescent > > -type tube display. > > That sounds right. The guy I talked to mentioned that it was IC-based, > not micro-based. > > > I don't believe it used the 4004 chip - relatively few calculators > > actually did use the 4004. > > I think it was a deal between Busicom and Intel for a calculator chip that > produced the 4004 and started the microprocessor revolution, right? Nope, the US Navy did. Intrigued? Stay tuned for details. ;) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/05/98] From dastar at wco.com Sat May 9 01:10:46 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Help with AE In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980508232700.006c7e10@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 May 1998, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > I looking for the address , web site, phone number or any info to locate a > company called AE or Applied Engineering, or AE Research Corp. I need some > parts from them and manuals. Thanks in advance John As far as I know, AE died with the //gs. They were THE third-party Apple ][ peripheral company back in the day. I'm sure if you posted a request for the desired information on comp.sys.apple2 someone should be able to provide you with it. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/05/98] From dastar at wco.com Sat May 9 01:15:50 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: a few new finds In-Reply-To: <3553E1DF.48A0A803@crl.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 May 1998, Greg Troutman wrote: > - Cromix? AFAIR from old Byte mags this is a Unix variant for which > processor? 68000. This was Cromemco's unix-like OS. I have a Cromemco System One and System Three with Cromix running on them. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/05/98] From afritz at iname.com Sat May 9 02:22:22 1998 From: afritz at iname.com (Adam Fritzler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: ID some DEC parts... Message-ID: I'm not too familiar with the older DEC VAX hardware, but I've ended up with a MicroVAX 2000 and a few strange parts. H3104 -- 1 38-pin centronics on one side, 8 MMJs on the other (I'm guessing a terminal adapter of some sort) EE730 -- 1 DB9 and 1 DB15 on one side, 3 MMJs on the other. ( I don't have a clue what this is) BC16C -- a 25ft cable with a centronics on each end ( I'm guessing this connects the H3104 to the MV2k) What are these things? The middle item seems most puzzling to me. Adam ---------- Adam Fritzler afritz@iname.com http://www.afritz.base.org ---------- From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sat May 9 03:48:13 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Floppiless (was: the new Apple iMac) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980508162239.1b4f155c@ricochet.net> At 07:31 PM 5/7/98 -0400, you wrote: >> Actually, if I were to design a computer, I would consider not >> including a floppy drive, or at least making it so that it doesn't > >I totally agree. Any more, floppy disk drives are more a PITA than they >are useful. Creation is no longer the focus of home computing---the >browser took care of that issue. This means having removable, writeable >media is less of a priority. In the corporate setting, where computers are >still used primarily for creation and dissemination, you have LANs to >alleviate the need for such media. > >The floppy plays little role in modern computing. I kinda have to agree. My laptop has had a dead floppy drive for some time now; probably over 2 years. The only time I really miss it is a) when I want to move data/pgms to a machine/person not "connected" or b) when I want to install (floppy-only) software. The first is handled by the net, the second by getting software on CD (or swapping my HD into an identical machine with a good floppy.) Nowadays, data and programs are both so big as to make floppies unusuable. (Can you imagine backing up 1GB to floppy? 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 9 07:13:38 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: HP Integral Re: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980509071338.457786e0@intellistar.net> At 01:35 PM 5/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Fri, 8 May 1998, Don Maslin wrote: > >> I learned from a friend who picked it up (for $3.10) at the swapmeet that >> HP made a lunchbox that had HP-UX all in ROM. No drives in the box. > >The Integral PC! Tell him I'll give him $10 for it :-) It is 68K-based >and has a small subset of HP-UX in ROM, but it really wants to boot from a >disk hanging off its HPIB bus. Not exactly, it has a built-in floppy drive that you can boot from, or you can use an external drive on the HP-IB. >BUT< they also had an optional ROM that contained an entire HP-UX system. HP called it a software engineering ROM. From what i've been told they're extremely rare. HP also made another ROM that contained a complete HP Technical BASIC in it. I just picked up my third IPC. One of mine has the Technical Basic Rom, one has the HP-UX ROM but the last one has both! :-) Joe From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 9 04:14:04 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: the new Apple iMac In-Reply-To: Ward Donald Griffiths III "Re: the new Apple iMac" (May 8, 22:28) References: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8BA@mail.simconv.com> <3553ABFA.D7E3A65C@exit109.com> Message-ID: <9805091014.ZM1081@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 8, 22:28, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > John Ruschmeyer wrote: > > I presume the system, like the Performas et al., will come with a > > bootable > > CD which can be used to restore the system to "factory" condition. > > And there went everything that was put on the disk after it left > the factory. Not necessarily, if it's done "right". Sun sparcstations and SGI workstations come with the O/S on bootable CD, and re-installing doesn't imply deleting all the other stuff that was added since the first factory install. The O/S and support software/datafiles can be added/replaced in modular fashion. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 9 09:21:51 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Floppiless (was: the new Apple iMac) Message-ID: <199805091421.AA14898@world.std.com> <3.0.1.16.19980509071338.457786e0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199805091609.JAA22329@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Joe wrote: > Not exactly, it has a built-in floppy drive that you can boot from, or > you can use an external drive on the HP-IB. >BUT< they also had an > optional ROM that contained an entire HP-UX system. HP called it a > software engineering ROM. From what i've been told they're extremely rare. > HP also made another ROM that contained a complete HP Technical BASIC in it. It doesn't boot from any kind of disks, as near as I can tell -- just auto-mounts them and hooks them into the RAM-resident filesystem. And it doesn't buffer writes, so it's safe to dismount stiffies with the eject button. And having looked at the HP-UX 5.x manuals, "entire HP-UX system" means "that subset supported on the IPC". It's pretty cut-down but usable in a single-user stand-alone non-networked (not even UUCP) PC sort of way. -Frank McConnell From dastar at wco.com Sat May 9 13:24:02 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: WANTED: TRS-80 Model 1 schematics Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can secure a copy of the schematics for the TRS-80 Model 1? PS. I have schematics for the TI-99/4a if anyone is interested. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/05/98] From rax at warbaby.com Sat May 9 17:43:57 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: A little off-topic help needed... Message-ID: Hi All - This is somewhat off-topic (maybe way-off-topic, depending on how you feel about Macs), but I've been trying to find some 30 pin, 8 or 16 meg simms for my girlfriend's Quadra 700. Anyone know of a source? R. -- Robert Arnold Managing Editor The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Creator and Eminence Grise Warbaby: The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. muahahahahaaaaa http://www.warbaby.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From everly at interpac.net Sat May 9 17:08:11 1998 From: everly at interpac.net (Loren Everly) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: A little off-topic help needed... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Check out Lance Timco he's selling a 16 meg 30 pin simm for $65. Lance is a seller of a bunch of mac and wintel stuff, I don't actually know him. Loren. >Hi All - > >This is somewhat off-topic (maybe way-off-topic, depending on how you feel >about Macs), but I've been trying to find some 30 pin, 8 or 16 meg simms >for my girlfriend's Quadra 700. Anyone know of a source? > >R. > >-- > >Robert Arnold >Managing Editor >The MonkeyPool >WebSite Content Development >http://www.monkeypool.com > >Creator and Eminence Grise >Warbaby: The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. >muahahahahaaaaa >http://www.warbaby.com > > > > Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 9 13:55:51 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Proposal: "Legacy" Open Products Partition In-Reply-To: <002501bd7af3$45b0d3e0$0667bcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at May 9, 98 05:35:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 997 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980509/8fe17fb4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 9 14:15:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Calculator displays In-Reply-To: <3553F6CE.CC9BD7CE@ndirect.co.uk> from "Enrico Tedeschi" at May 9, 98 06:25:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 451 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980509/88359775/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 9 13:57:21 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Proposal: "Legacy" Open Products Partition In-Reply-To: <3553C17A.E12EBB59@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at May 8, 98 10:37:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 842 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980509/aa10c78a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 9 14:18:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: ID some DEC parts... In-Reply-To: from "Adam Fritzler" at May 9, 98 00:22:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1059 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980509/1a624952/attachment.ksh From rcini at email.msn.com Sat May 9 09:11:43 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Anyone interested in a CBM 8050 drive? Message-ID: <000201bd7baf$72611460$6e21a7cd@bothell> I got a line on two 8050 floppy drives for the PETs. I want one; would anyone be interested in the second one? Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking Collector of classic computers <<<========== Reply Separaator ==========>>> From adept at mcs.com Sat May 9 20:36:39 1998 From: adept at mcs.com (The Adept) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Anyone interested in a CBM 8050 drive? References: <000201bd7baf$72611460$6e21a7cd@bothell> Message-ID: <355504A6.BF34231D@mcs.com> I would. I have one that doesn't work and would love to get a spare or working one! Cheers, Dan Richard A. Cini wrote: > I got a line on two 8050 floppy drives for the PETs. I want one; would > anyone be interested in the second one? > > Rich Cini/WUGNET > (remove nospam_ to use) > ClubWin! Charter Member (6) > MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > Collector of classic computers > <<<========== Reply Separaator ==========>>> From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat May 9 22:25:44 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Proposal: "Legacy" Open Products Partition Message-ID: <007601bd7bc3$784ea0e0$0667bcc1@hotze> >> Yes, we should have "levels" of experience. So that a Level 1 job could be > >Does this need to be done formally? I mean, when, for example, I bought >the service manual for my monitor, or the IBM techrefs, nobody bothered >to check I knew what I was doing with them. They just took my payment and >sent the manual. Not really formally, perhaps semi-formally. All pages would be rated, but we're not going to have an exam or anything. >While we need to be not responsible for how the information is used, I >think that should be the end of it. Yes, but just to give an aprox. guide. For instance, if someone wants to fix their old mono monitor, and they have a Level 2 hardware experience, they wouldn't want to read the Level 5 document, especially if they're busy, and don't want to spend too much time. It could also be used to give people a basic feeling of what they can-and cannot do. >Perhaps you could enlighten me. I know of only one way to fix a PCB - >look for obvious failures/shorts, power it up and start tracing signals >with a logic analyser. Is that the easy way or the hard way, and what is >the other way. That's the hard way. There are 2 easy ways that I know of: 1) Take it to a shop or 2) Get a new one. Tim D. Hotze From yowza at yowza.com Sat May 9 22:42:20 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: <355504A6.BF34231D@mcs.com> Message-ID: I've been finding parts of HP 150's for a few months now, and I finally collected enough of them today for a complete system (including a new in-the-box integral printer), but I'm short on stiffies. Anybody know a source of stiffies? I have the 9121 drive, which I think is single-sided. I'm also short on software. I have a DOS 2.01 boot stiffy, and I have manuals and licenses for Lotus 123 and MemoMaker, but the software is missing from the boxes. The HP 150's touchscreen is pretty cool. Is there a driver for it that emulates a mouse? IIRC, this Mac-like box predates the Mac, doesn't it? -- Doug From sethm at loomcom.com Sat May 9 23:12:21 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at May 9, 98 10:42:20 pm Message-ID: <199805100412.VAA08450@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 271 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980509/7cb739aa/attachment.ksh From bwish at pcfa.org Sat May 9 23:13:17 1998 From: bwish at pcfa.org (Brett Wish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Anyone interested in a CBM 8050 drive? In-Reply-To: <000201bd7baf$72611460$6e21a7cd@bothell> Message-ID: > I got a line on two 8050 floppy drives for the PETs. I want one; would > anyone be interested in the second one? > > > Rich Cini/WUGNET > (remove nospam_ to use) > ClubWin! Charter Member (6) > MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > Collector of classic computers > <<<========== Reply Separaator ==========>>> I'd like to have one if it's still available. ---------- Brett Wish bwish@pcfa.org ----------------- ** Intel: We put the "Ummm..." in Pentium ** * How can I set my laser printer for stun? * How do you make Windows 95 faster? Throw it harder! * Double your disk space! Delete Windows now! From yowza at yowza.com Sat May 9 23:47:29 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: <199805100412.VAA08450@squeep.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 May 1998, Seth J. Morabito wrote: > Stupid question alert: What's a stiffie? :) Some sort of HP-proprietary > removable media, or just another name for a 3.5" "floppy"? From marvin at rain.org Sun May 10 00:22:40 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Proposal: "Legacy" Open Products Partition References: Message-ID: <3555399F.39131FA2@rain.org> Tony Duell wrote: > After a while you get used to burning yourself and it doesn't hurt so > much :-). Now, _dropping_ a blob of solder on your (bare) foot is still > rather painful. Ah yes! I once had a soldering/desoldering device that had a pot of molten solder I was emptying out when *OUCH*! Somehow the solder had left the pot and deposited itself on my socked foot. The only thing I can say is there is no way to describe how good it felt :). From fmc at reanimators.org Sun May 10 00:12:13 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: Doug Yowza's message of Sat, 9 May 1998 22:42:20 -0500 (CDT) References: Message-ID: <199805100512.WAA15645@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Doug Yowza wrote: > I've been finding parts of HP 150's for a few months now, and I finally > collected enough of them today for a complete system (including a new > in-the-box integral printer), but I'm short on stiffies. Anybody know a > source of stiffies? I have the 9121 drive, which I think is single-sided. They aren't special, any decent double-sided 720KB stiffies should be usable. At least that is what I used to do. Well, that is, unless you have one of the real early 9121s that doesn't open the door on the stiffy. That's why some of the older HP stiffies have "pinch" stamped in the corner -- for those drives, you're supposed to slide the door over to the left 'til it catches, then pinch where indicated to close it. I think the real contemporary stiffies for those early drives didn't have the spring to pull the door closed. But I've never actually seen one -- they didn't last very long, in fact by the time we got a loaner demo 150 at that PPOE (early-mid 1983) the diskette stiffy doors were fully automatic. > The HP 150's touchscreen is pretty cool. Is there a driver for it that > emulates a mouse? IIRC, this Mac-like box predates the Mac, doesn't it? Yes it does predate the Mac. Driver to emulate a mouse? I never heard of one. Applications that wanted to use the touchscreen were mostly expected to pretend they were talking to a terminal and read the escape sequences that get generated by the touchscreen (preferable). Fairly late in my HP150 experience (1985-1986 or so), I got hold of a couple of freeware TSRs that you could load to implement chunks of the PC ROM BIOS interface on the 150. I don't recall exactly what they did (video and datacomm, I think) but I did manage to get WordPerfect 4.1 to run on the 150 with their help. And I found copies of them on a 150 stiffy last month! Not the original distribution, but I think all the files are there. Time to figure out how to get 'em up on the net for y'all. -Frank McConnell From ClaudioPuviani at sprintmail.com Sun May 10 00:26:57 1998 From: ClaudioPuviani at sprintmail.com (Claudio Puviani) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: WANTED: TRS-80 Model 1 schematics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bd7bd4$40cb4b30$64ffffdf@ppro-ntw.puviani.com> I have the TRS-80 Model 1 Technical Reference Manual, but it's on loan to a friend. Don't know when (if?) I'll get it back. -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Sam Ismail Sent: Saturday, May 09, 1998 2:24 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: WANTED: TRS-80 Model 1 schematics Does anyone know where I can secure a copy of the schematics for the TRS-80 Model 1? PS. I have schematics for the TI-99/4a if anyone is interested. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/05/98] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 10 04:51:31 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: Frank McConnell "Re: HP 150 stiffies" (May 9, 22:12) References: <199805100512.WAA15645@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <9805101051.ZM7628@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 9, 22:12, Frank McConnell wrote: > I think the real contemporary stiffies for those early drives didn't > have the spring to pull the door closed. But I've never actually seen > one -- they didn't last very long, in fact by the time we got a loaner > demo 150 at that PPOE (early-mid 1983) the diskette stiffy doors were > fully automatic. The first Apricot computers in the UK, and Sony wordprocessor systems, both used single-sided stiffies, with the catch for the shutter. They did have the spring, though. I've still got a few. The Sony systems used a proprietary format that I never had details of, but the Apricot used a variant of MS-DOS with 9 sectors per track, but only 70 tracks (315K/disk). The Apricot disks were a delicate shade of disgusting red, to match the colour of the company logo, but the Sony ones were the blue that became "standard". > > The HP 150's touchscreen is pretty cool. Is there a driver for it that > > emulates a mouse? IIRC, this Mac-like box predates the Mac, doesn't it? i had one for awhile, but missing the keyboard, so I gave it to someone else (who had a keyboard). Anybody got a system disk they could make an image of? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun May 10 01:22:54 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Support for obsolete products In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980506092520.00b47930@pc> from "John Foust" at May 6, 98 09:25:20 am Message-ID: <199805101030.GAA07094@smtp.interlog.com> On 6 May 98 at 19:36, Tony Duell wrote: > > in it. But what about a non-profit organization for products that > > absolutely no one wants to support? Just send them the docs > > and let them archive them. Companies donate old office equipment > > to good causes, why not old docs or source code? > > Well, I'm sure we all think that would be a Good Thing, but just try > convincing companies of that. > > IMHO, somebody should pass a law that says 'If a company refuses to > support a product, all documentation (schematics, sources, etc) should be > made available to owners of said product (or anyone :-))'. And with stiff > penalties for companies who loose documentation. It would be a lot more > use than some of the silly laws we have these days. > > Alas none of us are in a position to pass laws... > I'll second both of these motions ! Unfortunately , all too often manufacturers (and software houses) are in it for the quick buck, and abandon the product as soon as there is no longer (in their opinion) adequate return. But they will sit on their copyrights and prevent any use or improvement of the product. Many never even back up their product with parts, docs etc.in the first place. I seem to remember that auto-manufacturers had to supply parts for a certain number of years after production. This should be built in to copyright protection, which could make copyright documentation available after Xn period of time if products (or ideas for that matter) were not supported or available . The infamous Atari ST Freeze-Dried Terminal program incident comes to mind here as well as those of Broderbund, Symantec ,et al, sell-offs to other companies and disclaiming any further responsabilities. IBM has been one of the best for support (if somewhat pricey) and now has discontinued support for PS2 and PS1 computers.Then in this case they should also have to give up rights to MCA so that 3rd party developers could continue development. This way consumers would also have some protection and these companies would not be so quick to abandon them. It would also provide more of a barier against shoddy manufacturing practices . Rant mode off. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun May 10 08:49:45 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: References: <199805100412.VAA08450@squeep.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980510084945.7e27e76c@intellistar.net> > >HP adopted 3.5" disks before they evolved into the disk used commonly >today, so newer disks aren't compatible. Of course, HP also used a >proprietary formatting scheme. > >-- Doug > Wronnngggg! They are compatible. I've been using regular commercial 3.5" disk in my HP 150, Integral and other HPs for years. You just have to format them in the HP machine to get the HP format. Almost all the HPs use different formats so you have to format them in the same type machine and drive that you're goint to use them in. FWIW all those floppy drives are made by Sony. I found a pretty good HP 150 FAQ. It's at "http://www.mdn.com/oksoftware/Computers/hp150faq.html". Joe From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Sun May 10 09:20:44 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Why Can't Microsoft do telnet right... In-Reply-To: <3553B424.310A776@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at May 8, 98 09:40:52 pm Message-ID: <199805101420.KAA22704@shell.monmouth.com> > > Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > > > Ok, how come when I'm using a windows95 based telnet client I get all > > > sorts of wacky-assed errors when I'm using PINE, like "Folder closed due > > > to access error" and "Folder reduced to 0 bytes" and "error this" and > > > "error that". Basically stuff I never get when I'm using ProComm Plus. > > > Why is this? Why is a bug-free telnet session such a chore under Windows? > > > This is not just with the lame windows telnet either. I thought getting > > > CRT would clear this up but it happens with that too. What's going on > > > here? Any help would be greatly apprciated, especially in private e-mail. > > > > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > > > > Try another telnet... Take a look at www.tucows.org at TeraTerm Pro... > > or the upgrade to Hilgraeve's terminal emulator that ships with windows. > > The Microsoft Telnet is NOT VT100 compatible. > > Or try another operating system. Sure... if you're going to Unix. I've got FreeBSD, NetBSD and Linux running here along with OS/2. I haven't seen anything other than screen that gave you VT100 from Linux. OS/2, of course, gives very good vt100 emulation with it's TCP/IP. Microsoft doesn't give a @!#$%^&. Real vt100 emulation is a need if you try to talk to REAL DEC operating systems. Try running EDT on a bad emulator in keypad mode 8-( Try talking to DEC's RT11 KED or K52 with the MS emulator (ugh). I'm forced to use WinNT/Win95 for some work (I do dual boot into either FreeBSD or OS/2 where I can at work). VT100 should be fairly easy for MS to do. Most shareware does it better. (My $15.00 Quarterdec internet suite disk in the Computer City cheap pile works great and is very compatible.) I'm using the PCVT driver with FreeBSD which is more VT100/VT220 compatible than the standard console driver which looks like a SCO ansi console. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 10 10:32:56 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: Great end to week Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980510103256.006c41d4@pop3.concentric.net> Well Saturday was apretty good end to the week for me and the museum. At goodwill I found a HeathKit Educational system ET100 Learning computer with kb and cable for casette recorder. Also had with it the assembly manual and a memorex tape with some sort of programs on it just reading the hand wriiten label. The bottom was signed by Jay H. Jarrett VP Product Development and the person who put it together and dated 11-26-83. At used/new dealer I got the following 5 ea Duo Dock stations with bad ps's HP 2392A terminal users manual Itermec penlight bar code reader Memories, Micro-processors, Consumer Circuits, Industrial by MOSTEK 1975. IBM 3151 ASCII display station models 11,31, and 41 guide to operations. TI Application Report TMS 9900 system Development manual 1976. Honeywell IPC627 minicop user manual Mostek The F8 Microprocessor Preliminary Databook March 1976. Signetic's Designing with Microcomputers 1976. TMS 1976 Capactive-touch keyboard Interface Circuit manual 1977. HP Laserjet IIP has jamming problem needs some work. A BCC black notebook by Northgate for $19.99 needs some work. A ZEOS hand held unit for parts $9 black case no screen. Other items not ready for 10 year rule but it was a pretty good haul for a slow day. Keep computing John From yowza at yowza.com Sun May 10 11:12:37 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980510084945.7e27e76c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 May 1998, Joe wrote: > >HP adopted 3.5" disks before they evolved into the disk used commonly > >today, so newer disks aren't compatible. Of course, HP also used a > >proprietary formatting scheme. > > Wronnngggg! They are compatible. I've been using regular commercial > 3.5" disk in my HP 150, Integral and other HPs for years. You just have to > format them in the HP machine to get the HP format. Almost all the HPs use > different formats so you have to format them in the same type machine and > drive that you're goint to use them in. FWIW all those floppy drives are > made by Sony. Well, of course, that was the first thing I tried before I made my post, and I received an error something like "unrecognized floppy". I have a bunch of DS/DD's that have Mac stuff on them, so I tried to format a couple of those. Is it possible that the format program tries to read the floppy first to determine what format to use? If so, what's the equivalent to "format /u" for HP's menu-driven format program? Thanks, Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 10 05:52:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:46 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: <9805101051.ZM7628@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 10, 98 09:51:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 671 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980510/50465c02/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 10 05:50:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: <199805100512.WAA15645@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at May 9, 98 10:12:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1054 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980510/82ff1b16/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 10 05:44:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at May 9, 98 10:42:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2433 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980510/e0d98d47/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 10 05:31:38 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Proposal: "Legacy" Open Products Partition In-Reply-To: <007601bd7bc3$784ea0e0$0667bcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at May 10, 98 06:25:44 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 565 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980510/21c83fe2/attachment.ksh From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Sat May 9 23:19:02 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Ali Babas cave Message-ID: <35552AB6.706F@digiweb.com> I just spent Saturday morning in an Ali Babas cave of old computers ranging form a huge 6ft tall by 10 ft wide analogue computer through a few DEC machines (see below, and old ICT 1301, a Telefunken TR4 a burroughs 1800, a few French minicomputers and quite a number of unidentified systems. Included were lots of tape and disk drives, boxes of documentationa nd software. Just a dream come true! The collection belongs to ACONIT : "l'Association pour le Conservation de Informatique et Telematique" I guess that's pretty clear even to non french speakers. It has been accumulated over since 1985 and is currently stored in a warehouse in a town called Voiron near Grenoble. ACONIT has acquired larger and more convenient premisies in Grenoble itself and will be moving the collection there later this year and we plan on setting up workshops etc to restore as many of these systems as possible. Among the DEC machines I saw was a complete PDP-9. How rare are these? Anyways, if anyone is in the Grenoble region later on in the year drop me a line and I can provide a personally conducted guided tour of what we have. I'll keep you all informed of what we are doing as thngs develop. Regards, Hans B Pufal From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Sat May 9 23:21:36 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Id on Xerox workstation Message-ID: <35552B50.5FA1@digiweb.com> Amongst the ACONIT collection (see previous message), I found a Xerox workstation. Its a desk side, brown tower case with a separte small box on top containing a 3.5" floppy drive. It has a large (21") screen and optical mouse. It is made up of 4 tall boards wth part numbers like 140K0xxxx where xxxx are digits. Can anyone id this system? Regards, Hans B Pufal From dastar at wco.com Sun May 10 12:36:31 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: <199805100512.WAA15645@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 9 May 1998, Frank McConnell wrote: > Doug Yowza wrote: > > I've been finding parts of HP 150's for a few months now, and I finally > > collected enough of them today for a complete system (including a new > > in-the-box integral printer), but I'm short on stiffies. Anybody know a > > source of stiffies? I have the 9121 drive, which I think is single-sided. > > They aren't special, any decent double-sided 720KB stiffies should be > usable. At least that is what I used to do. WeirdStuff has boxes of 3.5" diskettes that they're giving away. Right besides the counter near the (new) entrance. It usually has a sign on it that says "FREE, take as many as you want". They're basically Adobe font diskettes (all the same) so they have a colorful label on them, but they're useable. > Well, that is, unless you have one of the real early 9121s that doesn't > open the door on the stiffy. That's why some of the older HP stiffies > have "pinch" stamped in the corner -- for those drives, you're supposed > to slide the door over to the left 'til it catches, then pinch where > indicated to close it. Oh man! I remember those. I think I still have one somewhere. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/05/98] From yowza at yowza.com Sun May 10 13:17:09 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > WeirdStuff has boxes of 3.5" diskettes that they're giving away. Right > besides the counter near the (new) entrance. It usually has a sign on it > that says "FREE, take as many as you want". They're basically Adobe font > diskettes (all the same) so they have a colorful label on them, but > they're useable. Those are the very disks I've been trying to use. I finally got one to format after going through about six of them. > > Well, that is, unless you have one of the real early 9121s that doesn't > > open the door on the stiffy. That's why some of the older HP stiffies > > have "pinch" stamped in the corner -- for those drives, you're supposed > > to slide the door over to the left 'til it catches, then pinch where > > indicated to close it. > > Oh man! I remember those. I think I still have one somewhere. My original boot stiffy is one of those "pinchers," which is why I assumed I needed that type. However, it looks like my 9121 groks new disks OK. So, I'm simply trying to make a copy of my boot disk. It looks like I'm almost there. I can boot from the new disk, but PAM says I need to install some apps on the disk, and then she tells me to RTFM! I don't have the manual, so can somebody tell me how to install apps for PAM? Better yet, is there a diskcopy available for DOS 2.01 on the HP150? Also, the first time I power the machine on, I get no video and the diagnostic LEDs are going through a pretty elaborate sequence. Can somebody (Tony?) clue me in to the meaning of the LEDs? Thanks, Doug From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Sun May 10 13:04:17 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Bull/Convergent part ids Message-ID: <3555EC21.57B4@digiweb.com> I picked up some unknown (to me) parts today for next to nothing. I would like to know what they are and if anyone wants these I can send them for the price of shipping. 2 externally identical modules, black plastic cases with 50 pin double row sockect connector. One is marked "Bull SA, type CMM1123 XVA M 7C 22940" the other "Convergent XM-003 AB for use with Ngen computers" and a sticker "1MB" I think these are 1Mb memory modules for Ngen computer? Then I have three apparently identical units. Metal boxes 10" x 3.5" x 1". There is a 120 pin connector of two rows of 60 pins. At one end is a 16 position thumbwheel switch, on one edge there are 8 LEDs in two block of 4 numbered 1-8. They all have Bull SA stickers with "Type CPF 1102" and "XVA K 22 06606" printed on them. Regards, Hans B Pufal From yowza at yowza.com Sun May 10 14:40:50 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Bull/Convergent part ids In-Reply-To: <3555EC21.57B4@digiweb.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 May 1998, Hans B Pufal wrote: > 2 externally identical modules, black plastic cases with 50 pin double > row sockect connector. > > One is marked "Bull SA, type CMM1123 XVA M 7C 22940" > the other "Convergent XM-003 AB for use with Ngen computers" > and a sticker "1MB" > > I think these are 1Mb memory modules for Ngen computer? There's a FAQ that covers some of the convergent/unisys/burroughs/bull boxen at: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/4011/ctosfaqv4pub.htm I have a B27, which was apparently the only F-bus machine. The B26 was an X-bus box which can probably use these modules. -- Doug From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sun May 10 10:55:36 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: OT: Ugrent: I have been hassased. In-Reply-To: <3555EC21.57B4@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <199805101952.PAA06312@mail.cgocable.net> Guys! Use your resources to hunt down that bad guy! I have been mailbombed, spammed on, and maybe have been same one who pinged my computer to BofD often. Details: pero69@hotmail.com admin@icq.com (not the true email from icq) and at least one more on same address. ICQ # 10069586 first name John, last name Doe (sissy guy can't expose itself) US of VI state This started one day with one message when he added my icq # to his list and message summarized: I have not seen same first name and last name like yours and send a message back. (My full name is Jason D. Pero, and last name is very few used by other guys other than my dad's side family tree. This is real tipoff because he wanted all the attention to him and so I just procceded to ingore him and took his # off on my list which several days later, he added same # back on my list again. And took offesive and started all that ruckus that caused me to appeal help here and sent two emails to mirabilis's email tech support (if ever there is one?! And one to my wave's ISP.) Thanks! Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From red at bears.org Sun May 10 15:10:18 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Bull/Convergent part ids In-Reply-To: <3555EC21.57B4@digiweb.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 May 1998, Hans B Pufal wrote: > 2 externally identical modules, black plastic cases with 50 pin double > row sockect connector. > > One is marked "Bull SA, type CMM1123 XVA M 7C 22940" > the other "Convergent XM-003 AB for use with Ngen computers" > and a sticker "1MB" These sound like memory modules for Convergent CM001 computers. Mine are Convergent branded XM-001 modules and are 256k apiece. It is conceivable that the XM-003 is 1 MB, but I was under the impression that 256k modules were the largest available. I'll make some photos of the module I've got here and put them up on the web shortly. > of 4 numbered 1-8. They all have Bull SA stickers with "Type CPF 1102" > and "XVA K 22 06606" printed on them. I can't really help you with that one. Sorry. ok r. From K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz Sun May 10 15:43:01 1998 From: K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz (Keith Whitehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: WANTED: TRS-80 Model 1 schematics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Does anyone know where I can secure a copy of the schematics for the >TRS-80 Model 1? > >PS. I have schematics for the TI-99/4a if anyone is interested. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: >dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ahh well I have the service manual for the Model 1,4,4P,Systems80 (clone) However I would love the schematics for the TI-99/4 (I have just aquired one) If you would like to photocopy the TI manual and post it to me I will do likewise for the TRS manual (I will NOT sell it, I have 4 model 1's ). Cheers Keith Whitehead 151 Featherston St Palmerston North New Zealand 5301 +----------- Keith Whitehead -----------+ | Physics and Chemistry Depts | | Massey University | | Palmerston North | | New Zealand | | | | Ph +64 6 350-5074 Fax +64 6 354-0207 | +------------------------------------------+ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 10 16:03:10 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: Tony Duell "Re: HP 150 stiffies" (May 10, 11:50) References: Message-ID: <9805102203.ZM8071@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 10, 11:50, Tony Duell wrote: > Subject: Re: HP 150 stiffies > > I think the real contemporary stiffies for those early drives didn't > > have the spring to pull the door closed. But I've never actually seen > > I have a couple somewhere... From memory, there is a spring - you slide > the door open against the spring and it locks open. Then you insert the > disk into the drive. When you eject it you pinch the corner to release > the catch and the door springs closed. That's what mine are like, too. The drives in the Sony WP were the same as the Apricot ones, mentioned in another reply, and Sony and Apricot upgraded to double-sided at about the same time. I've got the tech and service manuals for those drives, too. The 26-pin connector has the same signals as a modern 34-pin (barring ones that wouldn't be relevant here) and you can certainly make a simple adaptor. However, the data rate in the Sony and old Apricot systems was twice the normal rate for double-density, and the drives spin at 600 rpm instead of 300 rpm, so you can't just swap for a modern drive without changing other things to (like the PLL and differentiator circuit, and the BIOS). > BTW, does anyone remember Steve Ciarcia's homebrew touchscreen articles > in Byte? I have the reprints somewhere, and it works in the same way as > the HP150 touchscreen - IR LED/detector pairs around the screen. I've got that reprint somewhere, too. "Let Your Fingers Do The Talking", Byte August 1978 and September 1978. A 16 x 16 grid of emitters/sensors. A box near the ned of the article says "An industrial grade alphanumeric terminal incorporating touch panel input is being manufactured. For information contact: General Digital Corp, 700 Burnside Av, East Hartford CT 06108". Another box says, "NOTE: Any one building a unit from these designs should be advised that they are covered by a number of patents by the University of Illinois and may not be sold for profit". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun May 10 17:49:04 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Over the next several weeks I will be liquidating my collection of antique computers. I won't go into the reasons why except to say that the reasons for doing so are not bad. In other words, I'm not being forced to do it by bad circumstances. I'll leave it at this: I need the space in my home to expand a business venture that has brought me a great deal of genuine happiness over the last few months. I will be liquidating the following: TRS-80 Model III with Software Northstar Horizon with spare CPU card and a spare grungy chassis 2 Commodore 128 computers and 1 1571 disk drive and some miscellaneous Commodore peripherals 2 Commodore 64 computers with no PSs in unknown condition Ohio Scientific Challenger in working condition with keyboard and monitor Computer Systems Associations Micro 68000 Development System TEI 22 slot S100 backplane 2 small boxes of S100 cards including an IMSAI cpu board, several static ram cards, a Disk Jockey II disk controller and several others An entire shelf of S100 and CPM documentation including manuals for the IMSAI (original) and the Altair (copies) Epson QX-10 working with all software including CP/M 2.2, no printer Xerox 820 system, with spare motherboards, 2 8" drives, monitors and spare keyboards PDP-11/34 with RK05f and RK05j and last but certainly NOT least 3 PDP-8i systems, one cpu only, one with a high speed paper tape reader punch and one with a DECtape drive, lots of spare parts, full documentation including schematic print sets, DEC OS/8 on paper tape and several boxes of home-grown software on paper tape...includes ASR-33 Teletype in good condition - all condition unknown, not recommended for the beginning retrocomputerist GNT Paper tape reader/punch that connects to RS-232 with manual and a roll of black paper tape Now for what I want out of this stuff... Of course, cash is acceptable. I'll also accept trades for pre-press equipment like Linotype-Hell imagesetting equipment, RIPs and/or media developers/processors, small sheet-fed presses, black and white flatbed scanners suitable for a Macintosh, Quark Xpress 3.x up for the Mac, binding equipment like sheet collators or edge staplers, CD-ROM drive (any speed) for Macintosh, Macintosh font collections, digital duplicators, photocopiers and/or laser printers etc. If you think it's useful for preparing or printing a newsletter/magazine, I may be interested in it. Bet you can't guess what kind of business I'm involved in... =-) In some cases, I'll donate the equipment to a good home if I think it's warranted. The only thing I can't donate is the PDP-8s as I have a significant investment in them and need to get $250-$300 each from them on average to recover my retrieval costs. Buyer/trader must either pay shipping costs from Des Moines, Iowa to your location or come to Des Moines to pick the items up. The PDPs will all have to be picked up as each is in a 6' tall rack about 24 inches wide and deep. All bids and trade offers should be made via private email as this is the only public posting I'll make. I'm not going to make up any complex rules about what bid I'll select or deadlines etc. But if I say you got it for a specific price/trade and a higher one comes in, well that's just too bad for me. So don't expect an IMMEDIATE answer on your bid. If you need more information/specifics on an item, send me private email and I'll give you all the info I can to help you make a decision. Let the frenzy begin!!! =-) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead PS: I'll be discontinuing the website at www.retrocomputing.com in a month or so I can focus all my resources on the new venture. From yowza at yowza.com Sun May 10 17:06:12 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: <9805102203.ZM8071@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 May 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > BTW, does anyone remember Steve Ciarcia's homebrew touchscreen articles > > in Byte? I have the reprints somewhere, and it works in the same way as > > the HP150 touchscreen - IR LED/detector pairs around the screen. > > I've got that reprint somewhere, too. "Let Your Fingers Do The Talking", > Byte August 1978 and September 1978. A 16 x 16 grid of emitters/sensors. > > A box near the ned of the article says "An industrial grade alphanumeric > terminal incorporating touch panel input is being manufactured. For > information contact: General Digital Corp, 700 Burnside Av, East Hartford > CT 06108". > > Another box says, "NOTE: Any one building a unit from these designs should > be advised that they are covered by a number of patents by the University > of Illinois and may not be sold for profit". As coincidence would have it, I just picked the following up at a thrift store today: The Carroll Touch Input System from Carrol Touch Technology, Champaign, Illinois. The schematics are from July 1979. Apparently an entire company was formed just to produce these LED array touch screen things! -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 10 11:51:22 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at May 10, 98 11:12:37 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1152 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980510/7b397774/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 10 17:36:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Id on Xerox workstation In-Reply-To: <35552B50.5FA1@digiweb.com> from "Hans B Pufal" at May 10, 98 06:21:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980510/be280fdc/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Sun May 10 18:01:52 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Homebrew Computer Club Newsletter Message-ID: I was going through a box of stuff last night that I got several months ago from the same guy I got my first IMSAI from. He was around back in the day and used to attend all the Homebrew Computer Club meetings. Anyway, included in the box of magazines and brochures and such that he gave me was a folder with the Homebew Computer Club Newsletter from Vol.2 #1 (Jan. 1976) through Vol.2 #15 (Mar. 1977). This is sweet! I never knew that the HCC had a newsletter. Anyway, I haven't had a chance to go through them but there is some pretty wild stuff in them. The first issue I have has an "Open Letter to Hobbyists" from Bill Gates decrying the pirating of the Altair BASIC. The next issue has a response to Bill's letter chiding him for giving the software away in the first place and then complaining about piracy after the fact. Wild! I also found out I have Dr. Dobbs Journal of Computer Calisthenics and Orthodontia from Issue 1 on up through 1982. Sweet. I'll be reading through the Newsletters and will report any amazing revelations. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/05/98] From dastar at wco.com Sun May 10 18:29:59 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Schematics for Apple 1 anyone? Message-ID: I know this is (possibly) a long shot but does anyone have the schematics for the Apple 1? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/05/98] From yowza at yowza.com Sun May 10 18:46:57 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Schematics for Apple 1 anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > I know this is (possibly) a long shot but does anyone have the schematics > for the Apple 1? An Apple 1 manual, including schematics, is online at: http://www.grin.net/~cturley/USA2WUG/FOUNDING.MEMBERS/HOME.PAGES/STEVE.W/A1/The%20Index.Page.html -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 10 18:22:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at May 10, 98 01:17:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1458 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980511/8cc2cac4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 10 18:27:56 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: <9805102203.ZM8071@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 10, 98 09:03:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 929 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980511/1066747a/attachment.ksh From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Sun May 10 23:51:49 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Id on Xerox workstation References: Message-ID: <355683E5.3620@digiweb.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > It is made up of 4 tall boards wth part numbers like > > 140K0xxxx where xxxx are digits. > > > > Can anyone id this system? > > Yes, it sounds a little like a Xerox Daybreak, I think. I found one at a > radio rally earlier this year for the very low price of \pounds 10.00, so > it's now sitting alongside me. > > There are 5 slots in the Daybreak, although 1 or 2 may be empty. From the > left, looking from the rear, you find > > 1 - Display control and memory > 2 - Memory expansion > 3 - Mesa Processor board (Bit slice processor using 2901's) > 4 - I/O, boot procesor (80186) > 5 - Option I/O. I've got a laser printer card in mine. > > If it's any help I've pulled the processor from slot 3 of mine, and it's > a 140K05571. I can pull the other boards if you like and check the part > numbers I should have posted the part numbers in the original mesage, they are printed on the spine of the cards and easily readable. Wa have 4 cards marked from left to right looking from the back of the unit: 140K00440 140K01000 140K005570 140K05560 So our processor board is (slightly) different and I do not recall there being room for a fifth card. > Mine has a 5.25" drive in separate case on top. No reason why a 3.5" > drive couldn't be used instead, of course (although this may not be an > 'official' modificiation. Indeed, the box is certainly large enough for a 5.25" unit. So waht was the Daybreak, was it one of the internal research Xerox machines? - Hans From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Mon May 11 00:03:35 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: PDP-9 restoration Message-ID: <355686A7.1CC9@digiweb.com> I have trawelled the net and checked my own library but can find very little of substance on the PDP-9. Doea anyone have information on this machine? How rare is it? Regards, Hans B Pufal From fmc at reanimators.org Mon May 11 00:24:04 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk's message of Mon, 11 May 1998 00:22:25 +0100 (BST) References: Message-ID: <199805110524.WAA29983@daemonweed.reanimators.org> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote (after Doug): > > So, I'm simply trying to make a copy of my boot disk. It looks like I'm > > almost there. I can boot from the new disk, but PAM says I need to > > install some apps on the disk, and then she tells me to RTFM! I don't > > have the manual, so can somebody tell me how to install apps for PAM? > Touch 'Install Applic' (or press F1) > > Put the application master disk (I hope you have this...) into one of the > drives. Touch the appropriate label in the 'FROM' column on the screen. > Put the new disk in the other drive and touch that label in the 'TO' column. There's the rub, I think Doug is trying to copy a stiffy with installed applications and he wants the applications to be "installed" on the copy too. My vague recollection is that an "application master disk" is supposed to have a file that tells PAM about an application -- things like what files need to be copied for installation, what text to put in the application's block on the PAM screen, and what to run to when the user wants the application started. Installing the application gets the files copied and the other info stashed in some file (maybe a hidden one) that PAM keeps in the root directory of the boot volume. That latter file is probably what Doug needs to copy to his new boot disk. Of course it's been umpteen years since I last thought about this and so I don't remember the filenames. -Frank McConnell From yowza at yowza.com Mon May 11 00:40:14 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: PDP-9 restoration In-Reply-To: <355686A7.1CC9@digiweb.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 May 1998, Hans B Pufal wrote: > I have trawelled the net and checked my own library but can find very > little of substance on the PDP-9. Doea anyone have information on this > machine? How rare is it? Nothing of substance, but this info is in the PDP-8 FAQ: MODEL DATE PRICE BITS COMMENTS ===== ==== ======== ==== ===== PDP-1 1960 $120,000 18 DEC's first computer PDP-2 NA 24 Never built? PDP-3 NA 36 One was built by a customer, not by DEC. PDP-4 1962 $60,000 18 Predecessor of the PDP-7. PDP-5 1963 $27,000 12 The ancestor of the PDP-8. PDP-6 1964 $300,000 36 A big computer; 23 built, most for MIT. PDP-7 1965 $72,000 18 Widely used for real-time control. PDP-8 1965 $18,500 12 The smallest and least expensive PDP. PDP-9 1966 $35,000 18 An upgrade of the PDP-7. PDP-10 1967 $110,000 36 A PDP-6 successor, great for timesharing. PDP-11 1970 $10,800 16 DEC's first and only 16 bit computer. PDP-12 1969 $27,900 12 A PDP-8 relative. PDP-13 NA Bad luck, there was no such machine. PDP-14 A ROM-based programmable controller. PDP-15 1970 $16,500 18 A TTL upgrade of the PDP-9. PDP-16 1972 NA 8/16 A register-transfer module system. -- Doug From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon May 11 01:16:04 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: S100 speech boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <359f95db.1413460038@hoser> I don't know if the CT1 was used in "Wargames", but they had a talking IMSAI in it. The CT1 was the first S-100 speech board that I had ever seen, and I figured it would probably do the trick. Because I have no life, this afternoon I dug out the demo tape I received from the company about 20 years ago, digitized it, and added it to my web site. It's under in the "Classic Computers", "Gallery of Historic Computer Publications & Memorabilia" for lack of a better place to put it. Y'know - I really should change that page to thumbnails... it's getting huge. Anyway, give a listen and let me know what you think. They give you more technical details than you can shake a stick at, mostly delivered by a woman who is really excited about the product *and* knows lots of really cool technobabble. I'm pretty sure I've got the brochure around somewhere too. If I find it, I'll try to put it up as well. On Sat, 9 May 1998 00:45:58 +0100 (BST), you wrote: >You mean there's some connection between the CT1 and 'Wargames' ? Eeek! >Interesting. Presumably the DAC + analogue (de)muxes set the parameters... > >-tony -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon May 11 01:16:06 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader Message-ID: <199805110616.XAA12802@saul7.u.washington.edu> ... and I wanted to introduce myself. I'm a student at the University of Washington; I subscribed to the list in hopes that there would be some local members. So far, I'm not sure. Some of your names are familiar from alt.folklore.computers but many are new. I'm a computer-science major. Most CS majors here don't seem to be very interested in old machines, unfortunately. They must be dazzled by all the Windows NT machines we have (which were given to us by Intel and don't work very well, thanks to overstressed/inept/inconstant administration). I'll probably read more than I post -- I don't have detailed experience with the popular machines, because I don't _have_ the popular machines, because I live in a dorm room. But I do have experience with the Apple ][, and a Kaypro which I'm resurrecting (thanks to Don Maslin and his awe-inspiring collection of CP/M disks) and some HP calculators and some emulators on my Macintosh. By "popular" I mean "popular with the readers of this list," not "popular with people in general." So... who's from Washington? And BTW, is there a working Web site/archive/FAQ for this group? I can't seem to connect to the bothell machine, even though it's part of my own school. Thanks, -- Derek From red at bears.org Mon May 11 01:23:34 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader In-Reply-To: <199805110616.XAA12802@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 May 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > I'm a student at the University of Washington; I subscribed to the list in > hopes that there would be some local members. So far, I'm not sure. Some of > your names are familiar from alt.folklore.computers but many are new. Hi. I went to UW for a couple of years before dropping out. I intended to major in CS/CompE, but for sociopolitical reasons I decided it was better for me to do something else. I'm still in the area; I live in Edmonds and am the sysadmin at the Geoworks Seattle design centre. I don't have a collection that's -too- awe inspiring (especially compared to some of the other people on the list) but I have enough to really bug the guy I live with. Drop me a line sometime, I'd love to hear the latest scuttlebutt from the UW CS department. ok r. From dastar at wco.com Mon May 11 03:18:23 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: VCF2 dates & venue Message-ID: Its now official...the Second Annual Vintage Computer Festival will be held on September 26-27 at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, California. Another speaker has been added...Ray Holt. He designed the JOLT computer and also was involved in the development of the KIM-1 and SYM-1. That would be interesting in itself if it wasn't for the history-changing revelation that Ray will be sharing with those who attend VCF2. More to come! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From JayDee400 at aol.com Mon May 11 05:20:02 1998 From: JayDee400 at aol.com (JayDee400) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: remove Message-ID: remove From stephen.j.gabaly at lmco.com Mon May 11 08:12:33 1998 From: stephen.j.gabaly at lmco.com (Gabaly, Stephen J) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION Message-ID: <815D4FDDF9F6D011A5ED0000F804A87594C0DB@emss04m04.cs.lmco.com> I offer $100 for the IMSAI CPU card and IMSAI documentation. steve -----Original Message----- From: Wirehead Prime [SMTP:wirehead@retrocomputing.com] Sent: Sunday, May 10, 1998 6:49 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION Over the next several weeks I will be liquidating my collection of antique computers. I won't go into the reasons why except to say that the reasons for doing so are not bad. In other words, I'm not being forced to do it by bad circumstances. I'll leave it at this: I need the space in my home to expand a business venture that has brought me a great deal of genuine happiness over the last few months. I will be liquidating the following: TRS-80 Model III with Software Northstar Horizon with spare CPU card and a spare grungy chassis 2 Commodore 128 computers and 1 1571 disk drive and some miscellaneous Commodore peripherals 2 Commodore 64 computers with no PSs in unknown condition Ohio Scientific Challenger in working condition with keyboard and monitor Computer Systems Associations Micro 68000 Development System TEI 22 slot S100 backplane 2 small boxes of S100 cards including an IMSAI cpu board, several static ram cards, a Disk Jockey II disk controller and several others An entire shelf of S100 and CPM documentation including manuals for the IMSAI (original) and the Altair (copies) Epson QX-10 working with all software including CP/M 2.2, no printer Xerox 820 system, with spare motherboards, 2 8" drives, monitors and spare keyboards PDP-11/34 with RK05f and RK05j and last but certainly NOT least 3 PDP-8i systems, one cpu only, one with a high speed paper tape reader punch and one with a DECtape drive, lots of spare parts, full documentation including schematic print sets, DEC OS/8 on paper tape and several boxes of home-grown software on paper tape...includes ASR-33 Teletype in good condition - all condition unknown, not recommended for the beginning retrocomputerist GNT Paper tape reader/punch that connects to RS-232 with manual and a roll of black paper tape Now for what I want out of this stuff... Of course, cash is acceptable. I'll also accept trades for pre-press equipment like Linotype-Hell imagesetting equipment, RIPs and/or media developers/processors, small sheet-fed presses, black and white flatbed scanners suitable for a Macintosh, Quark Xpress 3.x up for the Mac, binding equipment like sheet collators or edge staplers, CD-ROM drive (any speed) for Macintosh, Macintosh font collections, digital duplicators, photocopiers and/or laser printers etc. If you think it's useful for preparing or printing a newsletter/magazine, I may be interested in it. Bet you can't guess what kind of business I'm involved in... =-) In some cases, I'll donate the equipment to a good home if I think it's warranted. The only thing I can't donate is the PDP-8s as I have a significant investment in them and need to get $250-$300 each from them on average to recover my retrieval costs. Buyer/trader must either pay shipping costs from Des Moines, Iowa to your location or come to Des Moines to pick the items up. The PDPs will all have to be picked up as each is in a 6' tall rack about 24 inches wide and deep. All bids and trade offers should be made via private email as this is the only public posting I'll make. I'm not going to make up any complex rules about what bid I'll select or deadlines etc. But if I say you got it for a specific price/trade and a higher one comes in, well that's just too bad for me. So don't expect an IMMEDIATE answer on your bid. If you need more information/specifics on an item, send me private email and I'll give you all the info I can to help you make a decision. Let the frenzy begin!!! =-) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead PS: I'll be discontinuing the website at www.retrocomputing.com in a month or so I can focus all my resources on the new venture. From mor at crl.com Mon May 11 07:23:31 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Great end to week References: <3.0.3.32.19980510103256.006c41d4@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <3556EDC3.4CCB91AF@crl.com> John R. Keys Jr. wrote: >HP Laserjet IIP has jamming problem needs some work. Depends on where it's jamming, but most often a good cleaning of the feed and exit rollers with rubbing alcohol will straighten these out. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon May 11 08:36:31 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: More PDP-11 tricks... (How many amps did you just say?) Message-ID: <13354812579.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I've managed to blow some obscure breaker somewhere, so now the CD head gets to decide if I get to haul my PDP-11 elsewhere. I'm not allowed to turn it on for the rest of the week, or until I find out how many amps it pulls, pray to the goddess Apthrodite, offer burnt 95 CDs, etc... Anyway, I've produced the following: I have 2 BA-11 boxes plugged into a 861C power controller, a RA81, a RA92, and a 9-track drive rated at 2 amps. Also, a TU58. How many can this pull running, and how much does that *%%%#& RA81 pull when started? Note that the 2 BA boxes are on the 861C, everything else is in the wall. ------- From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon May 11 10:18:42 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Calculator displays Message-ID: <9804118949.AA894925317@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Many thanks to all who replied about calculator displays. The general consensus seems to be that it was probably a Sharp EL9, an early and large hand-held calc (I'm sure it was larger than my hand, but never mind) from the early 1970s. To clear up a few misconceptions: It was not a Nixie tube machine. I have a nixie tube calc and a nixie tube voltmeter, so I know what those are. Apart from the trademark issues, I regard Nixie tubes as being ones in which you have an electrode for each _character_ rather than each segment. Usually digits, but as Tim pointed out, other symbols were available. It was not a starburst display. I have seen 14 segment and 16 segment versions, but these are still based on straight lines, not curves, and the numerals are still the good old 7-segment ugly ones. It was also not the display I have in my other digital voltmeter (Dynamco, I think) which has as digits a multilayer Perspex sandwich. Each perspex layer has a dot pattern for a character drilled in it; you light up a character by illuminating the edge of the appropriate perspex wafer, and total internal reflection confines the light to that wafer, thus lighting up the dot pattern of only the one character. Neat. I shall have a look at the website someone mentioned - thanks. But meanwhile, can someone who has a Sharp please e-mail me with a brief description of the segments of this 8-or-9-segment display and which ones light up for which digits. Many thanks. (A bit of background: Talking to my mother about watches, she said she never liked digital watches because she found 7-segment characters hard to read. I remembered this Sharp system and decided to try and find out a bit more. I wonder if it would be possible to revive it for LCDs and things - I still think it is much more readable than 7 seg.) Philip. From erd at infinet.com Mon May 11 09:34:31 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION In-Reply-To: from "Wirehead Prime" at May 10, 98 05:49:04 pm Message-ID: <199805111434.KAA20110@user2.infinet.com> Wirehead Prime writes: > Over the next several weeks I will be liquidating my collection of > antique computers... > > 3 PDP-8i systems, one cpu only, one with a high speed paper tape reader > punch and one with a DECtape drive, lots of spare parts, full > documentation including schematic print sets, DEC OS/8 on paper tape and > several boxes of home-grown software on paper tape...includes ASR-33 > Teletype in good condition - all condition unknown, not recommended for > the beginning retrocomputerist I'm in Ohio, a good drive away from Iowa, but if nobody closer wants these, I may be interested in them. I already have an 8/i (among other models) and wouldn't want to see these guys meet a sad fate. I'm interested, but I don't belong at the head of the line. -ethan From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon May 11 10:47:28 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Calculator displays Message-ID: <9804118949.AA894926937@compsci.powertech.co.uk> I wrote: > I shall have a look at the website someone mentioned - thanks. > > But meanwhile, can someone who has a Sharp please e-mail me with a brief > description of the segments of this 8-or-9-segment display and which > ones light up for which digits. Amazingly, there is a good image of it on the website. My last request is therefore redundant. Thank you one and all. Philip. From gkatz001 at umaryland.edu Mon May 11 10:02:00 1998 From: gkatz001 at umaryland.edu (Gary S Katz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: TRS80 Model I Equipment In-Reply-To: <199805110702.AAA23930@lists5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Alas, I have accepted a job offer that will take my family and me across the country into a home smaller than one we are currently renting. The Wife says that the Classic Computer Collection is NOT travelling with us. To be fair, if it DID move, I would have to store the equipment in a garage or something equally undesirable. The following equipment is in need of rescue: 3 TRS80 Model I CPU's two have keypads, one does not all are LEVEL II, 16K two have R/S lowercase mods, one has a non-R/S lc mod 2 Expansion Interface's both have 32K of RAM neither have functioning RS232 boards one has a buffered cable and SD controller one has non-buffered cable and R/S DD controller a single R/S RS232 board with a blown line driver chip might still be with us 4 R/S Shugart or Tandon Diskette Drives Two are Drive 0 designates with terminating resistors Two are Drive 1,2,3? without terminating resistors 1 VOXBOX - screws missing but functional at last test 1 TRS80 Voice Synthesizer - barely functioning at last test 1 TRS80 Line Printer 7 Box of Cassette-based tapes Unfortunately, three TRS80 Model I Monitors got tossed accidentally in a prior move, so I don't have any of these. The computers are currently located in central New Jersey. I am hoping that there is a local collector who would be interested in providing these guys with a loving home. I am currently located in Baltimore, so I can't ship them easily. Please reply via EMAIL if you are interested in retrieving these pieces of computing history. -Gary Katz From snoball at pdq.net Mon May 11 10:04:59 1998 From: snoball at pdq.net (snoball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: TRS80 Model I Equipment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601bd7cee$2a9f8540$a3e690d1@homepc.pdq.net> I would make sure nothing happended to atleast one TRS-80 Model I. But just abou tanything would be received here in Houston with open arms. > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Gary S Katz > Sent: Monday, May 11, 1998 10:02 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: TRS80 Model I Equipment > > > Alas, I have accepted a job offer that will take my family and me across > the country into a home smaller than one we are currently renting. The > Wife says that the Classic Computer Collection is NOT travelling with us. > To be fair, if it DID move, I would have to store the equipment in a > garage or something equally undesirable. > > The following equipment is in need of rescue: > > 3 TRS80 Model I CPU's > two have keypads, one does not > all are LEVEL II, 16K > two have R/S lowercase mods, one has a non-R/S lc mod > > 2 Expansion Interface's > both have 32K of RAM > neither have functioning RS232 boards > one has a buffered cable and SD controller > one has non-buffered cable and R/S DD controller > a single R/S RS232 board with a blown line driver chip might > still be with us > > 4 R/S Shugart or Tandon Diskette Drives > Two are Drive 0 designates with terminating resistors > Two are Drive 1,2,3? without terminating resistors > > 1 VOXBOX - screws missing but functional at last test > > 1 TRS80 Voice Synthesizer - barely functioning at last test > > 1 TRS80 Line Printer 7 > > Box of Cassette-based tapes > > Unfortunately, three TRS80 Model I Monitors got tossed accidentally in a > prior move, so I don't have any of these. > > The computers are currently located in central New Jersey. I am hoping > that there is a local collector who would be interested in providing these > guys with a loving home. I am currently located in Baltimore, so I can't > ship them easily. Please reply via EMAIL if you are interested in > retrieving these pieces of computing history. > > -Gary Katz > > From sethm at loomcom.com Mon May 11 12:15:02 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: More PDP-11 tricks... (How many amps did you just say?) In-Reply-To: <13354812579.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at May 11, 98 06:36:31 am Message-ID: <199805111715.KAA26730@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1145 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980511/4e64ef76/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon May 11 12:26:57 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Saved my bacon... Message-ID: <13354854527.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> THis running pulls 15 amps. Mustv'e been a fluke. Now, back to trying this RSTS tape... SAVRES says it has no header, and I can't boot from it... ------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon May 11 13:55:13 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: PLease ID CD-ROM unit Message-ID: <19980511185513.22197.qmail@hotmail.com> I have a CD-Rom unit here at my school that needs to be identified. We don't know where we got it, and have no docs. All we have is the external box, about 6" X 15" X 2". It is labelled "DATEXT CD-ROM DRIVE UNIT", and on the back says "MODEL DTX-10" and was made April 1986. It has a centronics plug on the back. The card that came with it has a single female socket,37 pin. It is labelled CD-IFI3, and has an NEC D8255AC-5 chip on it. It is a standard 8-bit ISA. Could someone tell me how useful this thing is, what drivers I need, background on it, etc? Thanks ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From donm at cts.com Mon May 11 14:11:15 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Calculator displays In-Reply-To: <9804118949.AA894925317@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 May 1998 Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > Many thanks to all who replied about calculator displays. The general > consensus seems to be that it was probably a Sharp EL9, an early and > large hand-held calc (I'm sure it was larger than my hand, but never > mind) from the early 1970s. Well, that depends on the size of your hand. To be more precise, it is 4" wide, 6.375" long and somewhat wedge shaped with the taller end at 2.75" and the shorter (keyboard) end being 1.75". Probably weighs 1.5# without 6 AA size NiCads. > To clear up a few misconceptions: > > It was not a Nixie tube machine. I have a nixie tube calc and a nixie > tube voltmeter, so I know what those are. Apart from the trademark > issues, I regard Nixie tubes as being ones in which you have an > electrode for each _character_ rather than each segment. Usually > digits, but as Tim pointed out, other symbols were available. > > It was not a starburst display. I have seen 14 segment and 16 segment > versions, but these are still based on straight lines, not curves, and > the numerals are still the good old 7-segment ugly ones. > > It was also not the display I have in my other digital voltmeter > (Dynamco, I think) which has as digits a multilayer Perspex sandwich. > Each perspex layer has a dot pattern for a character drilled in it; you > light up a character by illuminating the edge of the appropriate perspex > wafer, and total internal reflection confines the light to that wafer, > thus lighting up the dot pattern of only the one character. Neat. Yes, I remember those being used in the Electro Instruments and - I think - Non Linear Systems digital voltmeters. You know, the stepping switch based ones that really 'sang a tune' when in operation. > I shall have a look at the website someone mentioned - thanks. > > But meanwhile, can someone who has a Sharp please e-mail me with a brief > description of the segments of this 8-or-9-segment display and which > ones light up for which digits. By your later e-mail, you have that image form some website. Good, as it would be almost impossible to make a reasonable ascii sketch of it. They glow blue (what gas is that? argon?) and are viewed through a green filter. - don > Many thanks. > > (A bit of background: > > Talking to my mother about watches, she said she never liked digital > watches because she found 7-segment characters hard to read. I > remembered this Sharp system and decided to try and find out a bit more. > > I wonder if it would be possible to revive it for LCDs and things - I > still think it is much more readable than 7 seg.) > > Philip. > > From rws at ais.net Mon May 11 15:18:11 1998 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Osborne Executive (fwd) Message-ID: Hi all- I received this message, and I can't help as I don't have an Executive (just a 1). Can anybody offer any ideas? You can either reply to him, or to the group and I'll forward them to him. Thanks, Richard Schauer rws@ais.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:44:10 EDT From: JWMc33 To: rws@ais.net Subject: Osborne Executive I have three Osborne Executives, all of which give me fragmented type on the screen when I turn the computer on. A friend suggested that I need to change "the batteries." I can't find them. Can you help me? John McCormick From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 11 14:01:48 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:47 2005 Subject: Calculator displays In-Reply-To: <9804118949.AA894925317@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at May 11, 98 03:18:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2119 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980511/5327ac45/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 11 12:48:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: <199805110524.WAA29983@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at May 10, 98 10:24:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1170 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980511/36091100/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 11 12:44:48 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: Id on Xerox workstation In-Reply-To: <355683E5.3620@digiweb.com> from "Hans B Pufal" at May 11, 98 06:51:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2167 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980511/c12e5021/attachment.ksh From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon May 11 14:07:20 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? In-Reply-To: <199805110616.XAA12802@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199805112304.TAA06793@mail.cgocable.net> Assuming I have basic stuff, working parts except for motherboard under test. How can I assure that chipset that contains DMA controllers is working as intended? software I have is very limited and only tests very basic functions like checkit, sysinfo etc. Remember I only have limited RAM (1mb) to play with. Thanks Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon May 11 18:05:33 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? In-Reply-To: <199805112304.TAA06793@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <13354916168.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Testing DMA?] Better question: How does DMA *WORK* on a PC? I have a Pertec <> PC board, and I get to rewrite the software for it. How do I do DMA? ------- From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon May 11 18:08:42 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? Message-ID: If the floppy works, the DMA controller works. If you really want to exercise it, install a Sound Blaster. Kai -----Original Message----- From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca [mailto:jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca] Sent: Monday, May 11, 1998 12:07 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? Assuming I have basic stuff, working parts except for motherboard under test. How can I assure that chipset that contains DMA controllers is working as intended? software I have is very limited and only tests very basic functions like checkit, sysinfo etc. Remember I only have limited RAM (1mb) to play with. Thanks Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon May 11 14:27:02 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199805112323.TAA12647@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:08:42 -0700 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Kai Kaltenbach > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: RE: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? > If the floppy works, the DMA controller works. Will that plain booting process qualify as 'quick' test on that dma? > > If you really want to exercise it, install a Sound Blaster. Good suggestion and will keep in mind. That all I have is in that main PC and I'm not gonna tear it up for that one off rare testing. Jason D. > > Kai > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From fmc at reanimators.org Mon May 11 17:59:00 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: HP 150 stiffies In-Reply-To: Tony Duell's message of Mon, 11 May 1998 18:48:25 +0100 (BST) References: Message-ID: <199805112259.PAA02356@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Tony Duell wrote: > > My vague recollection is that an "application master disk" is supposed > > to have a file that tells PAM about an application -- things like what > > I've got the format of the installation file for the master disk - it's > in one of the manuals for writing your own applications. But I have no > idea quite what the installation procedure does with that informaition. I think I remember knowing it at one time, at least well enough to fake it when I needed it once -- though whether that was through reverse engineering the file format or looking at a co-worker's ISV kit manual I can't recall. > What about doing a plain sector copy on a PC or something? The disk is a > standard double-density one so a PC controller should be able to read it. > Shouldn't be too hard to figure out what sectors are used and copy them over. Sydex has a shareware device driver that is supposed to let you use HP150 stiffies directly on a PC-compatible. I tried it a few months ago on a non-classic (hmm, 7 years to go) Toshiba notebook but it was not able to read the lone 150-formatted stiffy I had handy. Whether that is because of newfangled hardware, funky notebook hardware, inability of the software to handle single-sided stiffies, or bad vibes I don't know. I am able to read the disk in a 9114B on my Portable Plus though. Hmm, maybe I'll try DISKCOPY on it tonight and see if that gets me another stiffy that the 9114B can read. Cheap thrills. -Frank McConnell From djenner at halcyon.com Mon May 11 18:50:33 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader References: <199805110616.XAA12802@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <35578EC9.25B2E8D3@halcyon.com> Derek, There are at least a half-dozen or so active "Pacific Northwesterners" on the list, located from Portland, OR up to Victoria/Vancouver B.C. I'm in Seattle, and I'll let the others respond if they so desire. So, you aren't alone, and there may be even more "lurking" out there. Dave D. Peschel wrote: > > ... and I wanted to introduce myself. > > I'm a student at the University of Washington; I subscribed to the list in > hopes that there would be some local members. So far, I'm not sure. Some of > your names are familiar from alt.folklore.computers but many are new. > > I'm a computer-science major. Most CS majors here don't seem to be very > interested in old machines, unfortunately. They must be dazzled by all the > Windows NT machines we have (which were given to us by Intel and don't work > very well, thanks to overstressed/inept/inconstant administration). > > I'll probably read more than I post -- I don't have detailed experience with > the popular machines, because I don't _have_ the popular machines, because I > live in a dorm room. But I do have experience with the Apple ][, and a Kaypro > which I'm resurrecting (thanks to Don Maslin and his awe-inspiring collection > of CP/M disks) and some HP calculators and some emulators on my Macintosh. > > By "popular" I mean "popular with the readers of this list," not "popular with > people in general." > > So... who's from Washington? And BTW, is there a working Web site/archive/FAQ > for this group? I can't seem to connect to the bothell machine, even though > it's part of my own school. > > Thanks, > > -- Derek From K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz Mon May 11 19:00:41 1998 From: K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz (Keith Whitehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: Amiga 600HD questions Message-ID: I have been given an Amiga 600HD. It seems to work but wont boot. Investigation showed that althought there was a harddrive there was no power going to it. Does the machine use standard IDE drives, if so where did it poer up from, there is no power socket adjacent to the IDE socket on the board. I suppose that a Y cable connected to the supply going to the floppy would work. Cheers Keith Whitehead +----------- Keith Whitehead -----------+ | Physics and Chemistry Depts | | Massey University | | Palmerston North | | New Zealand | | | | Ph +64 6 350-5074 Fax +64 6 354-0207 | +------------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 11 17:27:41 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: PLease ID CD-ROM unit In-Reply-To: <19980511185513.22197.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at May 11, 98 11:55:13 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 500 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980511/3fbe363c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 11 17:32:08 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: Calculator displays In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at May 11, 98 12:11:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 996 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980511/404b7339/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon May 11 19:30:22 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: Great end to week In-Reply-To: <3556EDC3.4CCB91AF@crl.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980510103256.006c41d4@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980511193022.006d167c@pop3.concentric.net> Thanks for the tip I will try it out tonight. It's the front feeder the paper gets half way in and then starts jamming. John At 05:23 AM 5/11/98 -0700, you wrote: >John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > >>HP Laserjet IIP has jamming problem needs some work. > >Depends on where it's jamming, but most often a good cleaning of the >feed and exit rollers with rubbing alcohol will straighten these out. > >-- >mor@crl.com >http://www.crl.com/~mor/ > > From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon May 11 19:59:36 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: PLease ID CD-ROM unit Message-ID: <19980512005936.7052.qmail@hotmail.com> This card also has some RAM-like chips. IF one were to assume that those are buffers, could one say that this is just a customized parallel port card? >> single female socket,37 pin. It is labelled CD-IFI3, and has an NEC >> D8255AC-5 chip on it. It is a standard 8-bit ISA. Could someone tell > >It's not much help but I can tell you that an 8255 is a pretty dumb 24 >line parallel I/O chip. It has the interesting feature that any write to >the mode control register (even if it doesn't change it) sets all output >lines to logic 0. That can make life interesting... > > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From adept at mcs.com Mon May 11 20:26:14 1998 From: adept at mcs.com (The Adept) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: Amiga 600HD questions References: Message-ID: <3557A535.48D8FD82@mcs.com> AFAIR, the A600HD uses the 44 pin 2.5" IDE connector which has the power on the main connector. Dan Keith Whitehead wrote: > I have been given an Amiga 600HD. It seems to work but wont boot. > Investigation showed that althought there was a harddrive there was no > power going to it. > > Does the machine use standard IDE drives, if so where did it poer up from, > there is no power socket adjacent to the IDE socket on the board. I suppose > that a Y cable connected to the supply going to the floppy would work. > > Cheers > > Keith Whitehead > > +----------- Keith Whitehead -----------+ > | Physics and Chemistry Depts | > | Massey University | > | Palmerston North | > | New Zealand | > | | > | Ph +64 6 350-5074 Fax +64 6 354-0207 | > +------------------------------------------+ From gzozman at escape.ca Mon May 11 20:24:38 1998 From: gzozman at escape.ca (Grant Zozman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: Help Needed: Kaypro 10 HDD Problems References: <199805112323.TAA12647@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <3557A4D5.E8EC2CE3@escape.ca> I recently added a Kaypro 10 to my collection, but it seems to have met with some rough handling in shipping. If anyone can shed some light on the problem described below, I would REALLY appreciate it (any Kaypro experts out there?) When I first fired it up, it booted from the hard drive right away. However, as soon as I tried to access the HD further, all I got were "Bad Sector" errors. Since then, the computer will no longer boot from the HD, and I can't access any information on it ( not a good sign :-( ). Using CP/M, I have tried to re-format the drive with no luck; all I get are "Verify Errors" as it tries to format. So much for the theory that the heads may have gotten knocked slightly out of alignment! Re-seating all connectors on the drive and controller didn't help either. I have pulled the drive from the computer and hooked it up outside the case. It does spin up to normal operating speed, and I can see the head stepper motor responding in a normal fashion when I attempt to access the drive (formatting, parking the heads, pulling a directory, etc.). None of the linkage to the heads seems damaged or broken; in fact the entire computer is in excellent shape and has not been abused. The hard drive activity light (which is controlled from the drive itself) also seems to respond normally. No untoward noises seem to come from the unit when it is operating, although I do hear some metallic "singing" during the last second or so just prior to the drive coming to a complete stop on power down. I'm not sure if this is just the brake mechanism, or if it is the heads against the platters (I do park the drive prior to powering off, though). Based on the above, I am assuming (wrongly so?) that the controller is probably working OK. It is a Western Digital WD1002-HDO. My hunch is that either the drive electronics or the drive itself have failed. Are there any other tests I should by trying? Am I correct to assume that it is the drive which has failed? The drive is a Tandon TM502 (10MB, MFM, 5 1/4" platters). If the drive cannot be salvaged, I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has a replacement drive, or knows of a source for same. I would like to keep the same make and model drive if possible, but an equivalent model would be fine too (as I'm sure Non Linear Systems used more than one make of drive in the Kaypro's). Any help is much appreciated! Grant Zozman gzozman@escape.ca From marvin at rain.org Mon May 11 20:36:05 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: PDP-9 restoration References: Message-ID: <3557A785.B37F8BAD@rain.org> Doug Yowza wrote: > PDP-16 1972 NA 8/16 A register-transfer module system. Ah yes, I still have the engineering documentation on the PDP-16. Calling it a computer was probably technically correct, but it was more like a solid state controller. While I did some work on the PDP 11/45 and the PDP 11/05, I did a great deal of maintenance work on the 16 (the company, Nabisco, that I worked for at the time had about 26 of them to control the mixing department.) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 11 19:59:15 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? In-Reply-To: <13354916168.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at May 11, 98 04:05:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1868 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980512/19cadfd6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 11 20:38:15 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: PLease ID CD-ROM unit In-Reply-To: <19980512005936.7052.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at May 11, 98 05:59:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 672 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980512/e9c9011f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 11 20:08:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: Great end to week In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980511193022.006d167c@pop3.concentric.net> from "John R. Keys Jr." at May 11, 98 07:30:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1325 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980512/70383c5c/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Mon May 11 20:46:54 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: TRS80 Model I Equipment References: Message-ID: <3557AA0E.893D23F7@cnct.com> Gary S Katz wrote: I am not too far away in Kearny NJ, I started with a Mod I (long lost, although it is possibly still owned), can offer a supportive home to them (I'll possibly have to track down instructions on attaching them to TV's, spare TV equipment is on hand -- I _do_ know and love the system (my second was lost to burglary) -- it was still being sold when I started working for RS 5.4 years before I left due to IBM compatibility of the new gear. I can give the darlings a good home, although I dread that such an adoption will give my (dear, loving) wife an excuse to balance things with getting another source of cat hair (we have a deal). I will cheerfully pick them up. > > Alas, I have accepted a job offer that will take my family and me across > the country into a home smaller than one we are currently renting. The > Wife says that the Classic Computer Collection is NOT travelling with us. > To be fair, if it DID move, I would have to store the equipment in a > garage or something equally undesirable. > > The following equipment is in need of rescue: > > 3 TRS80 Model I CPU's > two have keypads, one does not > all are LEVEL II, 16K > two have R/S lowercase mods, one has a non-R/S lc mod > > 2 Expansion Interface's > both have 32K of RAM > neither have functioning RS232 boards > one has a buffered cable and SD controller > one has non-buffered cable and R/S DD controller > a single R/S RS232 board with a blown line driver chip might > still be with us > > 4 R/S Shugart or Tandon Diskette Drives > Two are Drive 0 designates with terminating resistors > Two are Drive 1,2,3? without terminating resistors > > 1 VOXBOX - screws missing but functional at last test > > 1 TRS80 Voice Synthesizer - barely functioning at last test > > 1 TRS80 Line Printer 7 > > Box of Cassette-based tapes > > Unfortunately, three TRS80 Model I Monitors got tossed accidentally in a > prior move, so I don't have any of these. > > The computers are currently located in central New Jersey. I am hoping > that there is a local collector who would be interested in providing these > guys with a loving home. I am currently located in Baltimore, so I can't > ship them easily. Please reply via EMAIL if you are interested in > retrieving these pieces of computing history. > > -Gary Katz -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon May 11 20:44:20 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: VCF2 dates & venue Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980511114026.2c6f1ff4@ricochet.net> At 01:18 AM 5/11/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Its now official...the Second Annual Vintage Computer Festival will be >held on September 26-27 at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa >Clara, California. On a similar note, there's going to be a World of Atari show in Las Vegas in August. Kinda like MacWorld, only for Atari's. (And much, much, bigger. 8^) Anyway, sounds like a lot of fun; unfortunately I won't be able to make it. However, the guy from Sacto said that if WoA is successful, he'll think about doing another Sacramento Atari Expo... So go, make it a big success... P.S., Sam, I forgot to mention that I'll be happy to bring over anything in my collection (except the big Symbolics machines or the HP3000 8^) to put on display, and I'll be after a table too, I think, to unload some of the Mac stuff Rachel's not using at school. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon May 11 21:59:43 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: Amiga 600HD questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I have been given an Amiga 600HD. It seems to work but wont boot. >Investigation showed that althought there was a harddrive there was no >power going to it. > >Does the machine use standard IDE drives, if so where did it poer up from, >there is no power socket adjacent to the IDE socket on the board. I suppose >that a Y cable connected to the supply going to the floppy would work. Well, my A600 is missing the Hard Drive, but as I understand it, the power is fed via the ribbon cable. It's basically a standard 2 1/2" IDE Hard Drive. I know for the A1200 there are hacks that let you use a 3.5" HD in it, but I don't know if these will work in the A600. You can buy cables for this, but they might be a bit difficult for you to find in New Zealand. If you have access to USENET the Amiga newsgroups are some of the best left (man has USENET gone down hill since I first started using it). Just beware the euphoria is running extremally high with everyone waiting for the big announcement from Amiga, Inc. at "World of Amiga" in London this weekend. The hype is this announcement will change the face of computing, PERIOD, and will feature some BIG names. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From everly at interpac.net Mon May 11 20:55:59 1998 From: everly at interpac.net (Loren Everly) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 In-Reply-To: <3557A4D5.E8EC2CE3@escape.ca> References: <199805112323.TAA12647@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: Would anyone in the group happen to have an IBM 5100 that they wouldn't mind trading, or selling(not that I have much cash to offer)? Thanks, Loren. From homeline at ezl.com Mon May 11 21:47:43 1998 From: homeline at ezl.com (Cliff Boyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: More Kaypro problems Message-ID: <199805120247.VAA24768@ns.ezl.com> Hello, My my name is Cliff Boyer and I too have a Kaypro 10 problem. I think mine is in the power supply. I plug it in and turn it on and nothing happens. No lights, beeps, chirps, drives whirling. Nothing! I checked fuse on the back panel and it's OK. Is there a fuse on the P/S board located on the inside of the back panel? The machine was given to me, but I have no disks or manuals. However it is in excellent shape. I hope the hard drive is OK. If I cant get this machine going, I hope to get Anthony Clifton's QX-10 so I can see what a CP/M computer is like! Anyone have any thoughts? Cliff P.S. Hey Grant, If mine is not fixable, I may have a HD for you! From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon May 11 21:54:45 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader In-Reply-To: <35578EC9.25B2E8D3@halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at May 11, 98 04:50:33 pm Message-ID: <199805120254.TAA08393@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Derek: I too am in the northwest - Vancouver, BC to be exact. There are about 10 or so of us on the list. If you ever come to Vancouver send me email so you can stop by for coffee. Kevin > > Derek, > > There are at least a half-dozen or so active "Pacific Northwesterners" > on the list, located from Portland, OR up to Victoria/Vancouver B.C. > I'm in Seattle, and I'll let the others respond if they so desire. So, > you aren't alone, and there may be even more "lurking" out there. > > Dave > > D. Peschel wrote: > > > > ... and I wanted to introduce myself. > > > > I'm a student at the University of Washington; I subscribed to the list in > > hopes that there would be some local members. So far, I'm not sure. Some of > > your names are familiar from alt.folklore.computers but many are new. > > > > I'm a computer-science major. Most CS majors here don't seem to be very > > interested in old machines, unfortunately. They must be dazzled by all the > > Windows NT machines we have (which were given to us by Intel and don't work > > very well, thanks to overstressed/inept/inconstant administration). > > > > I'll probably read more than I post -- I don't have detailed experience with > > the popular machines, because I don't _have_ the popular machines, because I > > live in a dorm room. But I do have experience with the Apple ][, and a Kaypro > > which I'm resurrecting (thanks to Don Maslin and his awe-inspiring collection > > of CP/M disks) and some HP calculators and some emulators on my Macintosh. > > > > By "popular" I mean "popular with the readers of this list," not "popular with > > people in general." > > > > So... who's from Washington? And BTW, is there a working Web site/archive/FAQ > > for this group? I can't seem to connect to the bothell machine, even though > > it's part of my own school. > > > > Thanks, > > > > -- Derek > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From gzozman at escape.ca Mon May 11 22:15:16 1998 From: gzozman at escape.ca (Grant Zozman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: More Kaypro problems References: <199805120247.VAA24768@ns.ezl.com> Message-ID: <3557BEC4.6ECACFD0@escape.ca> Cliff: Looking at my machine, it seems to me your problem should be fairly straightforward (hopefully). From the AC plug on the back of the computer, the 110V power goes through the fuse on the back panel, and then is wired directly to the power switch. The output side of the power switch goes to the power supply board AND to the fan. So, when you flip on the power, does the fan start up? If not, I would suspect either a bad power switch, or one of the spade terminals has fallen off of the power switch, AC plug, or fuseholder. This should be evident by pulling off the top cover; the terminals are easy to access. You may also want to use a multimeter to see how far the 110V power is getting (just remember the one-hand-in-the-back-pocket rule!). If a number of the terminals are off, let me know, and I can tell you exactly how to wire it back up again. While I would love to get my machine going, hopefully we don't have to sacrifice yours to do it! Sounds like yours is in very nice shape as well! If you do get it going, I would be able to make a boot disk for you. Grant Zozman gzozman@escape.ca Cliff Boyer wrote: > Hello, > > My my name is Cliff Boyer and I too have a Kaypro 10 problem. > > I think mine is in the power supply. I plug it in and turn it on and nothing > happens. No lights, beeps, chirps, drives whirling. Nothing! > > I checked fuse on the back panel and it's OK. Is there a fuse on the P/S > board located on the inside of the back panel? > > The machine was given to me, but I have no disks or manuals. However it is > in excellent shape. I hope the hard drive is OK. > If I cant get this machine going, I hope to get Anthony Clifton's QX-10 so I > can see what a CP/M computer is like! > > Anyone have any thoughts? > > Cliff > > P.S. Hey Grant, If mine is not fixable, I may have a HD for you! From snp at niia.net Mon May 11 22:45:56 1998 From: snp at niia.net (Paul & Sheri) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: TRS80 Model I Equipment References: Message-ID: <3557C5F4.43E4BEB3@niia.net> Gary S Katz wrote: > The following equipment is in need of rescue: > > 3 TRS80 Model I CPU's > two have keypads, one does not > all are LEVEL II, 16K > two have R/S lowercase mods, one has a non-R/S lc mod > > 2 Expansion Interface's > both have 32K of RAM > neither have functioning RS232 boards > one has a buffered cable and SD controller > one has non-buffered cable and R/S DD controller > a single R/S RS232 board with a blown line driver chip might > still be with us > > 4 R/S Shugart or Tandon Diskette Drives > Two are Drive 0 designates with terminating resistors > Two are Drive 1,2,3? without terminating resistors > > 1 VOXBOX - screws missing but functional at last test > > 1 TRS80 Voice Synthesizer - barely functioning at last test > > 1 TRS80 Line Printer 7 > > Box of Cassette-based tapes > > Unfortunately, three TRS80 Model I Monitors got tossed accidentally in a > prior move, so I don't have any of these. > > The computers are currently located in central New Jersey. I am hoping > that there is a local collector who would be interested in providing these > guys with a loving home. I am currently located in Baltimore, so I can't > ship them easily. Please reply via EMAIL if you are interested in > retrieving these pieces of computing history. > > -Gary Katz Gary, I would be interested in whatever you can't get rid of locally -- I live in Indiana and would be happy to pay shipping. I would be using them as part of an educational presentation, so they would be going to teach the young'uns where things came from. Let me know. Thanks, Paul Braun NerdWare From K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz Mon May 11 23:20:23 1998 From: K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz (Keith Whitehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: Help Needed: Kaypro 10 HDD Problems In-Reply-To: <3557A4D5.E8EC2CE3@escape.ca> References: <199805112323.TAA12647@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: > >The drive is a Tandon TM502 (10MB, MFM, 5 1/4" platters). If the drive >cannot be salvaged, I >would appreciate hearing from anyone who has a replacement drive, or knows >of a source for same. >I would like to keep the same make and model drive if possible, but an >equivalent model would be >fine too (as I'm sure Non Linear Systems used more than one make of drive >in the Kaypro's). > >Any help is much appreciated! > >Grant Zozman >gzozman@escape.ca Ok, couple of points..my Kaypro 10 did the same...just up and died, What may have happened is that the faulty sector allocation table is full, this will not allow the system to map out any extra errors. However all is not lost ANY 10-20 meg MFM drive will do, however you will only be able to access 10 meg of the drive (the parameters are in the boot roms). Hope that helps Oh BTW there is a new set of roms available (can't remember where) that will allow you to get at more of the HD (possiblly in partitions) Cheers k.j.whitehead@massey.ac.nz Keith Whitehead Electronics Technician Electronics Services Institute of Fundimental Sciences Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand 5301 From donm at cts.com Mon May 11 23:26:13 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: More Kaypro problems In-Reply-To: <3557BEC4.6ECACFD0@escape.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 May 1998, Grant Zozman wrote: > Cliff: > > Looking at my machine, it seems to me your problem should be fairly > straightforward (hopefully). From the AC plug on the back of the computer, the > 110V power goes through the fuse on the back panel, and then is wired directly > to the power switch. The output side of the power switch goes to the power > supply board AND to the fan. So, when you flip on the power, does the fan start Not in factory configuration. As issued, the fan is a 12vdc unit that draws its power from the power supply. Certainly, he should check the power switch, but the power supply is more likely the problem. - don > up? If not, I would suspect either a bad power switch, or one of the spade > terminals has fallen off of the power switch, AC plug, or fuseholder. This > should be evident by pulling off the top cover; the terminals are easy to > access. You may also want to use a multimeter to see how far the 110V power is > getting (just remember the one-hand-in-the-back-pocket rule!). If a number of > the terminals are off, let me know, and I can tell you exactly how to wire it > back up again. > > While I would love to get my machine going, hopefully we don't have to sacrifice > yours to do it! Sounds like yours is in very nice shape as well! > > If you do get it going, I would be able to make a boot disk for you. > > > Grant Zozman > gzozman@escape.ca > > > > Cliff Boyer wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > My my name is Cliff Boyer and I too have a Kaypro 10 problem. > > > > I think mine is in the power supply. I plug it in and turn it on and nothing > > happens. No lights, beeps, chirps, drives whirling. Nothing! > > > > I checked fuse on the back panel and it's OK. Is there a fuse on the P/S > > board located on the inside of the back panel? > > > > The machine was given to me, but I have no disks or manuals. However it is > > in excellent shape. I hope the hard drive is OK. > > If I cant get this machine going, I hope to get Anthony Clifton's QX-10 so I > > can see what a CP/M computer is like! > > > > Anyone have any thoughts? > > > > Cliff > > > > P.S. Hey Grant, If mine is not fixable, I may have a HD for you! > > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From donm at cts.com Mon May 11 23:31:50 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: More Kaypro problems In-Reply-To: <199805120247.VAA24768@ns.ezl.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 May 1998, Cliff Boyer wrote: > Hello, > > My my name is Cliff Boyer and I too have a Kaypro 10 problem. > > I think mine is in the power supply. I plug it in and turn it on and nothing > happens. No lights, beeps, chirps, drives whirling. Nothing! Likely true. > I checked fuse on the back panel and it's OK. Is there a fuse on the P/S > board located on the inside of the back panel? Yes, there is. It is in a clip on the board. > The machine was given to me, but I have no disks or manuals. However it is > in excellent shape. I hope the hard drive is OK. If you get it operational, e-mail me for disks and some manuals. > If I cant get this machine going, I hope to get Anthony Clifton's QX-10 so I > can see what a CP/M computer is like! > > Anyone have any thoughts? > > Cliff > > P.S. Hey Grant, If mine is not fixable, I may have a HD for you! > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From donm at cts.com Mon May 11 23:45:23 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:48 2005 Subject: Help Needed: Kaypro 10 HDD Problems In-Reply-To: <3557A4D5.E8EC2CE3@escape.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 May 1998, Grant Zozman wrote: > I recently added a Kaypro 10 to my collection, but it seems to have met with some rough handling > in shipping. If anyone can shed some light on the problem described below, I would REALLY > appreciate it (any Kaypro experts out there?) > > When I first fired it up, it booted from the hard drive right away. However, as soon as I tried > to access the HD further, all I got were "Bad Sector" errors. Since then, the computer will no > longer boot from the HD, and I can't access any information on it ( not a good sign :-( ). > > Using CP/M, I have tried to re-format the drive with no luck; all I get > are "Verify Errors" as it > tries to format. So much for the theory that the heads may have gotten > knocked slightly out of > alignment! Do you have the PUTSYS and PUTOVL programs on floppy? These are the hard disk equivalent of SYSGEN, and are needed after format to make the drive bootable. > Re-seating all connectors on the drive and controller didn't help either. > > I have pulled the drive from the computer and hooked it up outside the case. It does spin up to > normal operating speed, and I can see the head stepper motor responding in a normal fashion when I > attempt to access the drive (formatting, parking the heads, pulling a directory, etc.). None of > the linkage to the heads seems damaged or broken; in fact the entire computer is in excellent > shape and has not been abused. The hard drive activity light (which is controlled from the drive > itself) also seems to respond normally. > > No untoward noises seem to come from the unit when it is operating, although I do hear some > metallic "singing" during the last second or so just prior to the drive coming to a complete stop > on power down. I'm not sure if this is just the brake mechanism, or if it is the heads against > the platters (I do park the drive prior to powering off, though). > > Based on the above, I am assuming (wrongly so?) that the controller is probably working OK. It is > a Western Digital WD1002-HDO. My hunch is that either the drive electronics or the drive itself > have failed. > > Are there any other tests I should by trying? Am I correct to assume that it is the drive which > has failed? > > The drive is a Tandon TM502 (10MB, MFM, 5 1/4" platters). If the drive cannot be salvaged, I > would appreciate hearing from anyone who has a replacement drive, or knows of a source for same. > I would like to keep the same make and model drive if possible, but an equivalent model would be > fine too (as I'm sure Non Linear Systems used more than one make of drive in the Kaypro's). That is most likely a replacement drive, as the originals were one of Microscience, Seagate, or Shugart. You can replace it with any MFM hard drive that has at least 4 heads and 306 cylinders. An ST-225 or clone comes to mind. Of course, with the Kaypro ROM you will only be able to access 4 heads and 306 cylinders, but it opens up the available list of drives rather wider. With the Advent TurboRom, available from TCJ, you can make use of a wide variety of drives on up to 40mb, as I recall. - don > Any help is much appreciated! > > Grant Zozman > gzozman@escape.ca > > > > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From donm at cts.com Mon May 11 23:51:27 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Calculator displays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > Yes, I remember those being used in the Electro Instruments and - I think - > > Non Linear Systems digital voltmeters. You know, the stepping switch > > based ones that really 'sang a tune' when in operation. > > Topic drift alert... > > Somewhere I have an article (including schematics) for making a 10 bit > successive approximation A-D using relays and stepping switches. The null > detector is one of those moving-coil polarised relays (which could be > tripped by 50uA). It punches the data on a 5 level paper tape, I think. > > I've always wanted to try it. Maybe I'll have a go sometime... > > > By your later e-mail, you have that image form some website. Good, as it > > would be almost impossible to make a reasonable ascii sketch of it. They > > glow blue (what gas is that? argon?) and are viewed through a green filter. > > Is it a gas discharge or a fluorescent anode? The latter are often green/blue I think gas discharge, as they have the mesh anode that you referred to in another message. > If it is a blue gas discharge, then the most likely gas is mercury > vapour, I think. OK, they are definitely blue. - don > -tony > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From chrish at knet.kootenay.net Tue May 12 02:49:56 1998 From: chrish at knet.kootenay.net (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader In-Reply-To: <35578EC9.25B2E8D3@halcyon.com> References: <199805110616.XAA12802@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980512004956.0068e818@vader.kootenay.net> Derek, My name is Chris Halarewich and I live i Castlegar, BC, Canada (about 3 hours away from spokane wash about an hour away from the us/canada border. At 04:50 PM 11/05/98 -0700, you wrote: >Derek, > >There are at least a half-dozen or so active "Pacific Northwesterners" >on the list, located from Portland, OR up to Victoria/Vancouver B.C. >I'm in Seattle, and I'll let the others respond if they so desire. So, >you aren't alone, and there may be even more "lurking" out there. > >Dave > >D. Peschel wrote: >> >> ... and I wanted to introduce myself. >> >> I'm a student at the University of Washington; I subscribed to the list in >> hopes that there would be some local members. So far, I'm not sure. Some of >> your names are familiar from alt.folklore.computers but many are new. >> >> I'm a computer-science major. Most CS majors here don't seem to be very >> interested in old machines, unfortunately. They must be dazzled by all the >> Windows NT machines we have (which were given to us by Intel and don't work >> very well, thanks to overstressed/inept/inconstant administration). >> >> I'll probably read more than I post -- I don't have detailed experience with >> the popular machines, because I don't _have_ the popular machines, because I >> live in a dorm room. But I do have experience with the Apple ][, and a Kaypro >> which I'm resurrecting (thanks to Don Maslin and his awe-inspiring collection >> of CP/M disks) and some HP calculators and some emulators on my Macintosh. >> >> By "popular" I mean "popular with the readers of this list," not "popular with >> people in general." >> >> So... who's from Washington? And BTW, is there a working Web site/archive/FAQ >> for this group? I can't seem to connect to the bothell machine, even though >> it's part of my own school. >> >> Thanks, >> >> -- Derek > > From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Tue May 12 04:28:53 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? Message-ID: Hmm, did you say that you had checkit? I thought that did test the DMA controllers... maybe not, been a long time since I've used it... cheers Jules > From Andy.Keeble at Royal-London-ins.co.uk Tue May 12 04:48:54 1998 From: Andy.Keeble at Royal-London-ins.co.uk (Keeble, Andy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Grundy Newbrain Computer wont power up. Message-ID: <94E7F4E958A9D11196EE00805FE66F1E57A04D@RLHS40EXC02> Can anyone help me bring an old British Computer back to life. Last night I bought a early 1980's Grundy Systems Newbrain "AD" computer from an advert in the local newspaper. (See http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~e.tedeschi/picts/newbrain.jpg) The machine is in good condition, with original manuals, cables, psu, and even some software. Unfortunately it wont power up. Turning on, the LED display flickers and goes blank (although the manual says it should do this, although I don't get a test pattern which I think I should) On the Television/video output I just get a white screen. Does anybody know if these machines suffered from any common faults? There doesn't seem to be much information in any of the newsgroups, and apart from brief descriptions on web based computer museums, there is very little information available about this strange little computer. Any help or information, would be much appreciated. Andy From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue May 12 07:05:30 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Calculator displays Message-ID: <9804128950.AA895000017@compsci.powertech.co.uk> >> It was also not the display I have in my other digital voltmeter >> (Dynamco, I think) which has as digits a multilayer Perspex sandwich. >> Each perspex layer has a dot pattern for a character drilled in it; you >> light up a character by illuminating the edge of the appropriate perspex >> wafer, and total internal reflection confines the light to that wafer, >> thus lighting up the dot pattern of only the one character. Neat. > > I've seem those used with a 2-colour (black, or illuminated red) > background for +ve or -ve results. Problem is, I can never remember if > red is +ve (as an engineer would use) or -ve (as an accountant would > use)... Actually, didn't Dynamco do that on some of their voltmeters? IIRC my Dynamco uses red for negative. Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue May 12 07:12:51 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Calculator displays Message-ID: <9804128950.AA895000557@compsci.powertech.co.uk> >>> By your later e-mail, you have that image form some website. Good, as it >>> would be almost impossible to make a reasonable ascii sketch of it. They >>> glow blue (what gas is that? argon?) and are viewed through a green filter. >> >> Is it a gas discharge or a fluorescent anode? The latter are often green/blue > > I think gas discharge, as they have the mesh anode that you referred to > in another message. Hmmm. I'm not convinced. IIRC, vacuum fluorescent displays have a hot wire cathode (thin, hard to spot) at the front, a mesh electrode near the back (anode?) and targets with greyish paint on them at the back. These targets usually glow blue-greenish when hit by electrons. But it is the paint that glows. Gas discharge has the cathode suspended in the gas, and it is the gas around it that glows, not the surface of the cathode. I have never seen a blue one, but I imagine argon is more likely than mercury vapour (which radiates mostly UV). Philip. From scottk5 at ibm.net Tue May 12 06:25:28 1998 From: scottk5 at ibm.net (Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: More Kaypro problems Message-ID: <01BD7D77.26655FC0@slip166-72-159-88.nc.us.ibm.net> Re: More Kaypro problems On Mon, 11 May 1998, Cliff Boyer wrote: > Hello, > > My my name is Cliff Boyer and I too have a Kaypro 10 problem. > Sounds a little like a 12-Step meeting....hello, my name is Kirk and I have a Xerox 16/8 problem..:-) I'm having the same sort of problem with my Xerox, with a Shugart 512 10MB HDD. I can put the drive on another MFM controller and it will initialize and format just fine with no errors, but on the WD controller in the Xerox under CPM it takes hours and hours to initialize and verify...then when I try to make partititons, CPM reports an error, that there is data on the disk, and dumps me back to the initialization routine. Could this possibly be the controller and is there any alternative to spending $75.00 to get another one? Kirk Scott scottk5@ibm.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2308 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980512/6e332e1c/attachment.bin From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 12 07:04:07 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Calculator displays Message-ID: <199805121204.AA11081@world.std.com> I found one in (probably) nonoperating condition. Just the CPU box, nothing else. What is it? ------- From Marty at itgonline.com Tue May 12 07:53:28 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Help Needed: Kaypro 10 HDD Problems Message-ID: <1998May12.085259.1767.102567@smtp.itgonline.com> If all else fails you may want to try a low level format on the hard drive. Boot with a MS-Dos ver 2.10 or later, run debug. At the '_' prompt type in g=c800:5 which should access the controller rom and enable you to low level format (it is menu driven). Your Tandon has 306 cylinders, 4 heads and 17 sectors per track. After the low level format procede with the high level partitioning and formatting. -Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Help Needed: Kaypro 10 HDD Problems Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 5/11/98 9:27 PM I recently added a Kaypro 10 to my collection, but it seems to have met with some rough handling in shipping. If anyone can shed some light on the problem described below, I would REALLY appreciate it (any Kaypro experts out there?) When I first fired it up, it booted from the hard drive right away. However, as soon as I tried to access the HD further, all I got were "Bad Sector" errors. Since then, the computer will no longer boot from the HD, and I can't access any information on it ( not a good sign :-( ). Using CP/M, I have tried to re-format the drive with no luck; all I get are "Verify Errors" as it tries to format. So much for the theory that the heads may have gotten knocked slightly out of alignment! Re-seating all connectors on the drive and controller didn't help either. I have pulled the drive from the computer and hooked it up outside the case. It does spin up to normal operating speed, and I can see the head stepper motor responding in a normal fashion when I attempt to access the drive (formatting, parking the heads, pulling a directory, etc.). None of the linkage to the heads seems damaged or broken; in fact the entire computer is in excellent shape and has not been abused. The hard drive activity light (which is controlled from the drive itself) also seems to respond normally. No untoward noises seem to come from the unit when it is operating, although I do hear some metallic "singing" during the last second or so just prior to the drive coming to a complete stop on power down. I'm not sure if this is just the brake mechanism, or if it is the heads against the platters (I do park the drive prior to powering off, though). Based on the above, I am assuming (wrongly so?) that the controller is probably working OK. It is a Western Digital WD1002-HDO. My hunch is that either the drive electronics or the drive itself have failed. Are there any other tests I should by trying? Am I correct to assume that it is the drive which has failed? The drive is a Tandon TM502 (10MB, MFM, 5 1/4" platters). If the drive cannot be salvaged, I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has a replacement drive, or knows of a source for same. I would like to keep the same make and model drive if possible, but an equivalent model would be fine too (as I'm sure Non Linear Systems used more than one make of drive in the Kaypro's). Any help is much appreciated! Grant Zozman gzozman@escape.ca ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998May11.212743.1767.41196; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:27:44 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id SAA14261; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:22:23 -0700 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id SAA46526 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:22:15 -0700 Received: from wpg-01.escape.ca (root@wpg-01.escape.ca [198.163.232.254]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP id SAA09739 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:22:13 -0700 Received: from escape.ca (ts2dl081.escape.ca [198.163.234.81]) by wpg-01.escape.ca (8.8.7/8.7.5) with ESMTP id UAA21249 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:22:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3557A4D5.E8EC2CE3@escape.ca> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:24:38 -0500 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Grant Zozman To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Help Needed: Kaypro 10 HDD Problems References: <199805112323.TAA12647@mail.cgocable.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 12 08:48:10 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980512084810.00aeb420@pc> Tony Duell wrote: >The first requirement is that you're mad. Now that you're foaming blue at the mouth, you could give the speech about how to use the keyboard interface chip to bring the 286 into real mode and back again... :-) - John Jefferson Computer Museum From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 12 08:47:49 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Amiga 600HD questions Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980512084749.00aec650@pc> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >If you have access to USENET the Amiga newsgroups are some of the best left >(man has USENET gone down hill since I first started using it). (Insert sound of crusty old man voice) "I was on the fricking net before they even called it the Internet!" >Just beware the euphoria is running extremally high with everyone waiting for >the big announcement from Amiga, Inc. at "World of Amiga" in London this >weekend. The hype is this announcement will change the face of computing, >PERIOD, and will feature some BIG names. (Insert sound of Monty Python "Black Knight" sketch, appropriate to Amigoids who hop around on one leg shouting "It's not dead yet.") - John Jefferson Computer Museum From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 12 09:03:30 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Help Needed: Kaypro 10 HDD Problems Message-ID: <199805121403.AA27532@world.std.com> < If all else fails you may want to try a low level format on the hard < drive. Boot with a MS-Dos ver 2.10 or later, run debug. At the '_' < prompt type in g=c800:5 which should access the controller rom and < enable you to low level format (it is menu driven). Your < Tandon has 306 cylinders, 4 heads and 17 sectors per track. After the < low level format procede with the high level partitioning and < formatting. < Marty That would work if it were a dos box. It's a kaypro CP/M machine with hard disk via host adaptor. However, in all likelyhood there are bad sectors on the drive and a FORMAT of the drive may clear the errors. The problem is that you need the floppies with the disk utilities to do that and restore the OS back to the disk (never minding all the other stuff on it). Unlike dos when I say FORMAT I mean literally a low level format of the media. This unlike the dos initializing of the media to dos file system. Formattig the media will erase all the data and files so if you didn't backup, you loose. How do the bad sectors arise? Heat, age and centrifical force assuming there were no mechanical or electrical events to munge the media. The older ST506/412 and similar drives tended to need a low level format from time to time over their mechanical life. Allison From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Tue May 12 10:05:49 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Help Needed: Kaypro 10 HDD Problems In-Reply-To: <1998May12.085259.1767.102567@smtp.itgonline.com> from "Marty" at May 12, 98 08:53:28 am Message-ID: <199805121505.LAA29820@shell.monmouth.com> > > If all else fails you may want to try a low level format on the hard > drive. Boot with a MS-Dos ver 2.10 or later, run debug. At the '_' > prompt type in g=c800:5 which should access the controller rom and > enable you to low level format (it is menu driven). Your > Tandon has 306 cylinders, 4 heads and 17 sectors per track. After the > low level format procede with the high level partitioning and > formatting. > > -Marty This may work on a Kaypro PC -- but not on the K10 which is a CP/M non-x86 machine. The WD controller has no format embedded in ROM. To format it you need either the utilities or the ability to write your own format. Bill From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 12 10:29:16 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: PPP and seriel connection Message-ID: <199805121529.AA02741@world.std.com> Message-ID: Are there any students besides Derek on the list? I am a fourth year electrical engineering major here at Oklahoma State. --Scott *********1*********2*********3*********4*********5*********6 As the astronomers unanimously teach, the circuit of the whole earth, which to us seems endless, compared with the greatness of the universe has the likeness of a mere point. --Ammianus Marcellinius ( 330-395 AD) the last major Roman historian in "The Chronicle of Events" ***** haleyk@okstate.edu ***** ***** ***** ends. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue May 12 11:09:24 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13355102555.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Any students?] I'm a high school student... ------- From drfcline at netw.com Tue May 12 11:29:59 1998 From: drfcline at netw.com (Foster W. Cline, M.D.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: UNIVAC Core Memory Cards (Screens) Available Message-ID: <199805121634.JAA06053@teldor.netw.com> Re: Loren's Everly's question on May 11th concerning IBM 1500. About 20 years ago, against my wife's admonitions, I bought an old IBM 1500. I paid a bunch of kids to open core memory modules so that I could find and mount a core board and a controller card on the wall. I have a friend, Jack Harper, on the list who asked for a core card, and said he thought there might be others of you interested in this unique piece of history. I have pictures of them on my website at: www.netw.com/~DrFCline/ For those of you interested have a look, and contact me if you wish. Foster From COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU Tue May 12 12:01:35 1998 From: COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU (Benjamin M Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS Message-ID: <01IWY1ITG5OY8Y77C3@AC.GRIN.EDU> > Are there any students besides Derek on the list? Oh, what the heck. I'm a third-year Russian major at Grinnell College. And, just to keep this minimally on-topic, I have a minor Kaypro problem. My Kaypro 4 had one of its original floppy drives replaced with a half-height drive before I got it, leaving a gaping hole in the front. I wasn't thrilled about this even when the drive worked, but it's stopped working, so I want to get rid of it. Anybody have a source for full-height double-sided 5-1/4" floppy drives? Thanks, -- Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley coakley@ac.grin.edu Station Manager, KDIC 88.5 FM CBEL: Xavier OH Wow, this is global. -Mtn Goats From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue May 12 12:03:13 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Crosspost - Osborne help needed Message-ID: <355880D0.1729A081@bbtel.com> If anyone on the list can help this guy, please email him directly ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Dal Bianco Welland, ONT Canada - Tuesday, May 12, 1998 at 11:30:41 I have an Osborne Portable computer, Model OCC 1. I would like to get it up and running, but lack information on it such as operating system, start-up procedure and available memory. If anyone knows about this model of computer, please contact me. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From archive at navix.net Tue May 12 13:02:42 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS References: Message-ID: <35588EC1.5FF08FE3@navix.net> I'm a fourth year Sports Management, CS, and Broadcast Journalism major in Nebraska. CORD COSLOR K.S. (Tall Texan) Haley wrote: > Are there any students besides Derek on the list? > > I am a fourth year electrical engineering major here at > Oklahoma State. > > --Scott > > *********1*********2*********3*********4*********5*********6 > As the astronomers unanimously teach, the circuit of the > whole earth, which to us seems endless, compared with the > greatness of the universe has the likeness of a mere point. > --Ammianus Marcellinius ( 330-395 AD) > the last major Roman historian in "The Chronicle of Events" > ***** haleyk@okstate.edu ***** ***** ***** ends. -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\| From wanderer at bos.nl Tue May 12 14:19:23 1998 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: ASR33 Message-ID: <3558A0BB.6E64@bos.nl> Hi All, I recently acquired an ASR33 and I'm in need of some assitance in order to be able to let it work against my Unix box. At the back of the powersupply there is a terminal strip with a number of lugs. Question is, which lugs to use, the unit is an UCC-6 (for private wire setups). Other problem is which voltage to use for the current loop to rs232, I have a converter, and uses 5 volt maximum, and do not know if that will work. If not, does someone then have a proper schematic? Thanks, Ed From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue May 12 12:21:10 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Curious Message-ID: <35588506.A887454B@bbtel.com> Anyone had problems lately with the list setting you to POSTPONE? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From afritz at iname.com Tue May 12 13:07:11 1998 From: afritz at iname.com (Adam Fritzler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS In-Reply-To: <13355102555.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 May 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > [Any students?] > > I'm a high school student... > ------- same here... (sophomore) af ---------- Adam Fritzler afritz@iname.com http://www.afritz.base.org ---------- From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue May 12 09:20:50 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: UNIVAC Core Memory Cards (Screens) Available In-Reply-To: <199805121634.JAA06053@teldor.netw.com> Message-ID: <199805121817.OAA25386@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:29:59 -0700 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Foster W. Cline, M.D." > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: UNIVAC Core Memory Cards (Screens) Available > X-To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Re: Loren's Everly's question on May 11th concerning IBM 1500. > > About 20 years ago, against my wife's admonitions, I bought an old IBM > 1500. I paid a bunch of kids to open core memory modules so that I could > find and mount a core board and a controller card on the wall. I have a > friend, Jack Harper, on the list who asked for a core card, and said he > thought there might be others of you interested in this unique piece of > history. I have pictures of them on my website at: > > www.netw.com/~DrFCline/ RED ALERT! that will not work, this will work: www.netw.com/~drfcline/ FWIW! Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From haleyk at okstate.edu Tue May 12 14:22:17 1998 From: haleyk at okstate.edu (K.S. (Tall Texan) Haley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: strange z-80 / CP/M box In-Reply-To: <01IWY1ITG5OY8Y77C3@AC.GRIN.EDU> Message-ID: Our student IEEE group saved the following from a dumpster. a Paradynamics PRONTO computer. This thing is the size of a small beige filing cabinet and holds 2 8 inch drives. the guy we got it from said it had 48K of RAM and 2 10 Meg hard drives. It has a sticker for a place called Balcones Computers in Austin which is where this probably came from. a quick check showed that it has a 1200 baud hayes s-100 buss modem in it and we have 1 vt-100 compatible terminal for it. does anyone remember seeing one of these beasts? a lot of the disks have suffered bit rot, but I think we do have 1 working boot disk. E-MAIL privately (if you think this is off topic) becase I need to know how long to leave the bootdisk in. Is it necessary ie: is it like DOS but everything is an external command and requires the floppy. thx in advane. I think we also acquired an IBM 5100. This animal was without docs, but it boots to basic and has a small mono screen and twin 8 inch drives. All the logic is in one housing with the screen. I know someone was asking around about such a computer recently. *********1*********2*********3*********4*********5*********6 As the astronomers unanimously teach, the circuit of the whole earth, which to us seems endless, compared with the greatness of the universe has the likeness of a mere point. --Ammianus Marcellinius ( 330-395 AD) the last major Roman historian in "The Chronicle of Events" ***** haleyk@okstate.edu ***** ***** ***** ends. From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue May 12 14:38:15 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: UNIVAC Core Memory Cards (Screens) Available References: <199805121817.OAA25386@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <3558A527.F2A10EE4@bbtel.com> > RED ALERT! > > that will not work, this will work: > > www.netw.com/~drfcline/ > This would work even better: http://www.netw.com/~drfcline/ As then people with IE and Netscape (maybe others) could just click on it in the message and GO! It becomes a link then.... -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From maynard at jmg.com Tue May 12 16:26:59 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Forward: Free Sun386i in Chelmsford MA [gwr@mc.com: Free Sun 386i] Message-ID: <199805122126.RAA08985@mr-gateway.internal.net> Saw this on the 'current-users' netbsd list and figured some folks here might be interested. I cannot vouge for this gentleman, though I know he is one of the Sun-3 port maintainers for NetBSD and strongly suspect he's a 'nice guy.' ;-) - - --jmg - - ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:29:00 -0400 From: "Gordon W. Ross" To: current-users@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Free Sun 386i Delivered-To: current-users@NetBSD.ORG Anyone want a free Sun386i? It's the bigger one (server) model /25 or something like that. I forget. Color tube. It works, and has SunOS 4.0.3 as I recall, and DOSmerge. Way too heavy to ship. You pick it up in Chelmsford, MA. Pass this along. It goes to the scrap yard in a week. Apologies for the noise... Gordon From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue May 12 10:53:28 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Fun at lunch Message-ID: <199805121955.OAA01025@trailingedge.com> My wife informed me today that she couldn't join me for lunch so I decided to take the time and spend it visiting a couple of thrifts here. Glad I did. I picked up a Commodore C64 (in the shorten C128 style case, sans power supply) just for the heck of it, it was only $0.80 along with a C2N Cassette drive and 2 Kraft KC3 PC/Apple 2 joysticks. Those are nice ones. But what really caught my eye was a small box in the back of the top shelf. It was a Radio Shack MC-10 Micro Color Computer, missing the power supply of course. I brought it back to the office and asked our sysadmin if he could load Office 98 on my new portable for me. He didn't know what to say. :-) Anyone have anything for the MC-10? Doc, software, etc. The other big find, to me anyway, was a book for $0.50, INTRODUCTION TO DEC SYSTEM-10: TIME-SHARING AND BATCH. This book is great! Now I just need a system to play with. More books and computers, that'll teach my wife to skip out on lunch. :-) ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From red at bears.org Tue May 12 16:09:29 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Commodore 128 cabling Message-ID: Hi. I picked up a C=128 with a pair of 1571 drives and a 1902 monitor at a thrift shop the other day. I'm a bit of a Commodore gumby---I only ever knew one guy who had one, and it was a C=64. I couldn't find any of the cables when I bought it. I actually did go back this morning and found a few of them, so I have a few questions. The 1902 monitor has 5- and 8-pin DIN connectors. The C=128 has 5- and 8-pin DIN connectors for video, along with a DE9f for 'RGBI'. The video cable I found has a 5-pin connection labelled 'Computer' and an 8-pin connection labelled 'Monitor'. This sounds pretty straightforward. So my question is, which jacks are used for what? Will I not be able to use 80 column mode with this cable? Should I wire a straight-through DIN-8 cable and use that instead of the one I have? What do I gain by using the RGBI connector? Would one of the Tandy RGB monitors work with it? The thrift has one, either a CM-3 or CM-5. I forget which. Also, I was unable to locate the power supply. I notice it has the same connection as my A500 supply, except the switch is on the CPU instead of the PS. Could I use the A500 supply on the C=128 until I can dig up a C=128 (or even C=64?) supply? ok r. PS; I'm still trying to find info on that TI-99/4A video cable. (: From K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz Tue May 12 16:14:22 1998 From: K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz (Keith Whitehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Amiga 600HD questions In-Reply-To: <3557A535.48D8FD82@mcs.com> References: Message-ID: >AFAIR, the A600HD uses the 44 pin 2.5" IDE connector which has the power >on the >main connector. > >Dan Nope, the ribbon going to the drive is a standard IDE 40 pin cable (the drive has 44 pins), and the socket on the motherboard has only 40 pins. This why I was wondering if it was a non standard drive they used. Cheers k.j.whitehead@massey.ac.nz Keith Whitehead Electronics Technician Electronics Services Institute of Fundimental Sciences Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand 5301 From donm at cts.com Tue May 12 16:46:43 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: strange z-80 / CP/M box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 May 1998, K.S. (Tall Texan) Haley wrote: > Our student IEEE group saved the following from a dumpster. > a Paradynamics PRONTO computer. This thing is the size of > a small beige filing cabinet and holds 2 8 inch drives. > > the guy we got it from said it had 48K of RAM and 2 10 Meg > hard drives. It has a sticker for a place called Balcones > Computers in Austin which is where this probably came from. Paradynamics was well known in the S-100 heyday for selling rather innovative and high priced main frames (boxes) in which to house them. They had some nice features, but could also be a real b***h for access. Balcones did some contract operating system software work for Xerox, amongst others. But, I cannot say that I am familiar with the machine that you describe. It would probably be worth seeing if you can identify the maker of the S-100 cards in it. Most makers were not bashful about putting their names on their products, though some of the busy ones posed a challenge in finding it because the chip density was so high. > a quick check showed that it has a 1200 baud hayes s-100 > buss modem in it and we have 1 vt-100 compatible terminal > for it. > > does anyone remember seeing one of these beasts? a lot of the > disks have suffered bit rot, but I think we do have 1 working > boot disk. > > E-MAIL privately (if you think this is off topic) becase I > need to know how long to leave the bootdisk in. Is it > necessary ie: is it like DOS but everything is an external > command and requires the floppy. Such commands as DIR(ectory), TYPE, ERA(se) are internal commands. However, on completion the o/s normally looks for the CCP (Command Control Processor) and may hang if the disk is not present. > thx in advane. > > I think we also acquired an IBM 5100. > This animal was without docs, but it boots to basic and has > a small mono screen and twin 8 inch drives. All the logic is > in one housing with the screen. I know someone was asking > around about such a computer recently. > > *********1*********2*********3*********4*********5*********6 > As the astronomers unanimously teach, the circuit of the > whole earth, which to us seems endless, compared with the > greatness of the universe has the likeness of a mere point. > --Ammianus Marcellinius ( 330-395 AD) > the last major Roman historian in "The Chronicle of Events" > ***** haleyk@okstate.edu ***** ***** ***** ends. > - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From donm at cts.com Tue May 12 16:53:00 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: More Kaypro problems In-Reply-To: <01BD7D77.26655FC0@slip166-72-159-88.nc.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 May 1998, Kirk Scott wrote: > Re: More Kaypro problems > > I'm having the same sort of problem with my Xerox, with a > Shugart 512 10MB HDD. I can put the drive on another MFM controller and > it will initialize and format just fine with no errors, but on the WD > controller in the Xerox under CPM it takes hours and hours to initialize > and verify...then when I try to make partititons, CPM reports an error, > that there is data on the disk, and dumps me back to the initialization > routine. Could this possibly be the controller and is there any > alternative to spending $75.00 to get another one? > > Kirk Scott > scottk5@ibm.net It sounds very likely that you have a controller problem. - don From rax at warbaby.com Tue May 12 18:20:16 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Fun at lunch In-Reply-To: <199805121955.OAA01025@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: David wrote: (snip) >But what really caught my eye was a >small box in the back of the top shelf. It was a Radio Shack MC-10 >Micro Color Computer, missing the power supply of course. I brought >it back to the office and asked our sysadmin if he could load Office >98 on my new portable for me. He didn't know what to say. :-) >Anyone have anything for the MC-10? Doc, software, etc. I bought an MC-10 when it first came out and I still have it, of course, along with the manual. It may take a few days to dig it out, but if you haven't acquired a manual by then, I'll make you a copy of mine. R. -- Robert Arnold Managing Editor The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Creator and Eminence Grise Warbaby: The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. muahahahahaaaaa http://www.warbaby.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 12 17:46:39 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:49 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS In-Reply-To: <01IWY1ITG5OY8Y77C3@AC.GRIN.EDU> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980512174639.2c278204@intellistar.net> Ben, In the past I've come across some original FH Tandon drives, including a couple of NIB ones. I sold all the ones that I had to one of the other list members, but I can probably find some used ones from IBM PCs. Will they work? Joe At 12:01 PM 5/12/98 -0500, you wrote: >> Are there any students besides Derek on the list? > >Oh, what the heck. I'm a third-year Russian major at Grinnell College. > >And, just to keep this minimally on-topic, I have a minor Kaypro >problem. My Kaypro 4 had one of its original floppy drives replaced with >a half-height drive before I got it, leaving a gaping hole in the front. >I wasn't thrilled about this even when the drive worked, but it's stopped >working, so I want to get rid of it. Anybody have a source for >full-height double-sided 5-1/4" floppy drives? > >Thanks, >-- >Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley coakley@ac.grin.edu >Station Manager, KDIC 88.5 FM CBEL: Xavier OH >Wow, this is global. -Mtn Goats > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue May 12 17:51:15 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings Anthony, Can you tell me more about your Ohio Scientific Challenger? Cassette based? Disk basked? 8/5.25? George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Sun, 10 May 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > > Over the next several weeks I will be liquidating my collection of > antique computers. I won't go into the reasons why except to say that > the reasons for doing so are not bad. In other words, I'm not being > forced to do it by bad circumstances. I'll leave it at this: I need the > space in my home to expand a business venture that has brought me a great > deal of genuine happiness over the last few months. > > I will be liquidating the following: > > TRS-80 Model III with Software > > Northstar Horizon with spare CPU card and a spare grungy chassis > > 2 Commodore 128 computers and 1 1571 disk drive and some miscellaneous > Commodore peripherals > > 2 Commodore 64 computers with no PSs in unknown condition > > Ohio Scientific Challenger in working condition with keyboard and monitor > > Computer Systems Associations Micro 68000 Development System > > TEI 22 slot S100 backplane > > 2 small boxes of S100 cards including an IMSAI cpu board, several static > ram cards, a Disk Jockey II disk controller and several others > > An entire shelf of S100 and CPM documentation including manuals for the > IMSAI (original) and the Altair (copies) > > Epson QX-10 working with all software including CP/M 2.2, no printer > > Xerox 820 system, with spare motherboards, 2 8" drives, monitors and > spare keyboards > > PDP-11/34 with RK05f and RK05j > > and last but certainly NOT least > > 3 PDP-8i systems, one cpu only, one with a high speed paper tape reader > punch and one with a DECtape drive, lots of spare parts, full > documentation including schematic print sets, DEC OS/8 on paper tape and > several boxes of home-grown software on paper tape...includes ASR-33 > Teletype in good condition - all condition unknown, not recommended for > the beginning retrocomputerist > > GNT Paper tape reader/punch that connects to RS-232 with manual and a > roll of black paper tape > > Now for what I want out of this stuff... > > Of course, cash is acceptable. I'll also accept trades for pre-press > equipment like Linotype-Hell imagesetting equipment, RIPs and/or media > developers/processors, small sheet-fed presses, black and white flatbed > scanners suitable for a Macintosh, Quark Xpress 3.x up for the Mac, > binding equipment like sheet collators or edge staplers, CD-ROM drive > (any speed) for Macintosh, Macintosh font collections, digital > duplicators, photocopiers and/or laser printers etc. If you think it's > useful for preparing or printing a newsletter/magazine, I may be > interested in it. > > Bet you can't guess what kind of business I'm involved in... =-) > > In some cases, I'll donate the equipment to a good home if I think it's > warranted. The only thing I can't donate is the PDP-8s as I have a > significant investment in them and need to get $250-$300 each from them > on average to recover my retrieval costs. > > Buyer/trader must either pay shipping costs from Des Moines, Iowa to your > location or come to Des Moines to pick the items up. The PDPs will all > have to be picked up as each is in a 6' tall rack about 24 inches wide > and deep. > > All bids and trade offers should be made via private email as this is the > only public posting I'll make. I'm not going to make up any complex > rules about what bid I'll select or deadlines etc. But if I say you got > it for a specific price/trade and a higher one comes in, well that's just > too bad for me. So don't expect an IMMEDIATE answer on your bid. > > If you need more information/specifics on an item, send me private email > and I'll give you all the info I can to help you make a decision. > > Let the frenzy begin!!! =-) > > Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > > PS: I'll be discontinuing the website at www.retrocomputing.com in a > month or so I can focus all my resources on the new venture. > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 12 17:51:00 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: strange z-80 / CP/M box In-Reply-To: References: <01IWY1ITG5OY8Y77C3@AC.GRIN.EDU> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980512175100.47e79cf2@intellistar.net> At 02:22 PM 5/12/98 -0500, you wrote: > >I think we also acquired an IBM 5100. >This animal was without docs, but it boots to basic and has >a small mono screen and twin 8 inch drives. All the logic is >in one housing with the screen. I know someone was asking >around about such a computer recently. It's not a 5100! They only had a single tape drive. Joe From donm at cts.com Tue May 12 18:13:47 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980512174639.2c278204@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 May 1998, Joe wrote: > Ben, > > In the past I've come across some original FH Tandon drives, including a > couple of NIB ones. I sold all the ones that I had to one of the other > list members, but I can probably find some used ones from IBM PCs. Will > they work? Yes! - don > Joe > > At 12:01 PM 5/12/98 -0500, you wrote: > >> Are there any students besides Derek on the list? > > > >Oh, what the heck. I'm a third-year Russian major at Grinnell College. > > > >And, just to keep this minimally on-topic, I have a minor Kaypro > >problem. My Kaypro 4 had one of its original floppy drives replaced with > >a half-height drive before I got it, leaving a gaping hole in the front. > >I wasn't thrilled about this even when the drive worked, but it's stopped > >working, so I want to get rid of it. Anybody have a source for > >full-height double-sided 5-1/4" floppy drives? > > > >Thanks, > >-- > >Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley coakley@ac.grin.edu > >Station Manager, KDIC 88.5 FM CBEL: Xavier OH > >Wow, this is global. -Mtn Goats > > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From snoball at pdq.net Tue May 12 18:11:34 1998 From: snoball at pdq.net (snoball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101bd7dfb$4eef2280$fde290d1@homepc.pdq.net> Hi, I am a teacher here at the local elementary school in Humble, TX. To be honest, the computer department here at the school is rather pathetic, two Apple //e's and an XT that was donated that I can't get to work. To be frank, these kids are going into a world where they are illiterate in the basic workings of a computer. I hate to sound desperate, but I have just exausted all leads I know to take on the matter. I saw your ad and thought that there could still be a chance. I am a little familiar with computer collectiong myself, I have none but have read all the antique computer museum site in order to more educate myself on what I am loking for. From what I understand, the TRS-80 Model III has BASIC language built in???? Any difference, if were to ovtain this computer, I would search vigorously for eduaction software, I'm sure I could find this somewhere Like in an old Radio Shack warehouse or something. And if there is BASIC on it, I could use to perhaps teach a small summer class on computer programming and incorporate the to Apple //e's. Unfortunatly, I am a little short on funds at the moment (this moment has lasted about all my life) and the school district will no longer return my calls. If the TRS-80 Model III or any other computer is still available, I would be more than happy to pay the shipping costs to ZIP code 77346. I hope you could find it in your heart to lend a lerning tool to a group of children from first grade to 5th. If not, a simple reply telling that you cannot donate would be sufficient. However, if you can, I would like to work out the specifics such as shipping addresses and prices or if there is something else that I can do for you. Thank you for reading this message, I hope that I have not come accross to strong. Thank you. -Justin Teague snoball@pdq.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 12 13:15:05 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Grundy Newbrain Computer wont power up. In-Reply-To: <94E7F4E958A9D11196EE00805FE66F1E57A04D@RLHS40EXC02> from "Keeble, Andy" at May 12, 98 10:48:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1427 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980512/8ae6d016/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 12 13:06:08 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Calculator displays In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at May 11, 98 09:51:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 935 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980512/a0ae5c14/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 12 13:00:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: More Kaypro problems In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at May 11, 98 09:31:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1783 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980512/7da541c1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 12 17:33:38 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980512084810.00aeb420@pc> from "John Foust" at May 12, 98 08:48:10 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1073 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980512/6e41eba1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 12 13:23:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Calculator displays In-Reply-To: <199805121204.AA11081@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at May 12, 98 08:04:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1562 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980512/aae5fdcf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 12 17:12:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: ASR33 In-Reply-To: <3558A0BB.6E64@bos.nl> from "wanderer" at May 12, 98 07:19:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2764 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980512/c59de18e/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Tue May 12 16:56:31 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 12, 98 11:33:38 pm Message-ID: <199805122156.RAA23631@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > >The first requirement is that you're mad. > > > > Now that you're foaming blue at the mouth, you could give the speech > > about how to use the keyboard interface chip to bring the 286 into > > real mode and back again... :-) > > Sure, it's not _that_ hard... > > The problem is that the i80286 can go from real mode to protected mode, > but not back again. At least not without a hardware reset. Well, there is at least one way through software, maybe two. Both are undocumented, but work. The first is to use the LOADALL instruction (different format between the 286 and 386. I think Intel finally removed that instruction on the Pentiums). The second way is to triple fault the CPU (I know that works on the 386 or higher, not exactly sure about the 286). Both are faster than the hardware reset method. -spc (Now getting a triple fault is a bit tricky ... ) From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Tue May 12 20:15:00 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION In-Reply-To: <000101bd7dfb$4eef2280$fde290d1@homepc.pdq.net> Message-ID: > Hi, I am a teacher here at the local elementary school in Humble, TX. To be > honest, the computer department here at the school is rather pathetic, two > Apple //e's and an XT that was donated that I can't get to work. To be > frank, these kids are going into a world where they are illiterate in the > basic workings of a computer. I hate to sound desperate, but I have just > exausted all leads I know to take on the matter. I saw your ad and thought Justin, I'm going to leave my response public so that everyone will know the status of this and what's being done about it. I think I can do you one better. Donating to a school is tax deductible so I think something can be worked out if I can get something back from the school saying I donated the equipment. ;) I have a pile of 386 and 486 computers in my garage, many of which are in working order and would be fine for running DOS or Windows 3.11 and one of the BASICS (qbasic etc) for machines running DOS or Windows. I would be THRILLED to have someone cover the shipping costs to send them someplace where they'd get used for something worthwhile. My only concern is that I don't have any VGA monitors for them and I'm not sure about my time helping you get some going. I could easily send your 6 or 7, which you should be able to get at least 2 to 4 working computers from. They all have VGA cards, RAM and IDE hard disk controllers. Many have 5.25 or 3.5 inch floppy drives. I've also got two giant boxes filled with keyboards for them. If some of the folks on the list here would offer to help you out getting them going and offer to donate some monitors for them, I think we could come up with something mutually agreeable. =-) You'll need some donated copies of DOS and/or Windows 3.11 and a bit of assistance getting them booted up, and some small IDE hard drives. But I think this group could work together to get this accomplished. I think we would all be happy to clear some of this stuff, which is perfectly good stuff, out and get it into the hands of some kids. > shipping costs to ZIP code 77346. I hope you could find it in your heart to > lend a lerning tool to a group of children from first grade to 5th. If not, Well I think my heart would be filled with joy just to be able to see the concrete in my garage again! =-D All the machines are clean and have been stored in a semi-heated, dry, attached garage so they're ok. But I'm trying to get a 1 or 2 color press and I need the space so I can unload the thing when I find it. Does that help you out? Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From yowza at yowza.com Tue May 12 19:02:00 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [why does this thread exist?] On Tue, 12 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > The problem is that the i80286 can go from real mode to protected mode, > but not back again. At least not without a hardware reset. > > Now, the keyboard controller output port bit 0 will, if pulsed low, reset > the microprocessor. Wasn't there another trick? Tripple-fault will also cause a hardware reset on most mobo's, and it's probably faster than diddling the keyboard controller. -- Doug From adept at mcs.com Tue May 12 19:21:53 1998 From: adept at mcs.com (The Adept) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Commodore 128 cabling References: Message-ID: <3558E7A1.E1B54BDA@mcs.com> R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > Hi. > > I picked up a C=128 with a pair of 1571 drives and a 1902 monitor at a > thrift shop the other day. I'm a bit of a Commodore gumby---I only ever > knew one guy who had one, and it was a C=64. > > I couldn't find any of the cables when I bought it. I actually did go back > this morning and found a few of them, so I have a few questions. > > The 1902 monitor has 5- and 8-pin DIN connectors. > > The C=128 has 5- and 8-pin DIN connectors for video, along with a DE9f for > 'RGBI'. > > The video cable I found has a 5-pin connection labelled 'Computer' and an > 8-pin connection labelled 'Monitor'. This sounds pretty straightforward. > > So my question is, which jacks are used for what? Will I not be able to > use 80 column mode with this cable? Should I wire a straight-through DIN-8 > cable and use that instead of the one I have? > You need to use the RGB-I connection for 80 column on the 128. The DIN-8and RGB-I can be connected simultaneously, output goes to the RGB port if the 40/80 locking key is engaged and the machine is in 128 or CP/M mode. In all other cases, output is via the VIDEO out or RF out. The 5 Pin DIN you have is probably for a C64, which uses a 5 Pin DIN for video. (The C64C shares the DIN8 with the 128). > What do I gain by using the RGBI connector? Would one of the Tandy RGB > monitors work with it? The thrift has one, either a CM-3 or CM-5. I forget > which. > 80 column mode is about it. The output is standard CGA/EGA type. There isa mono signal on one of the unused CGA/EGA pins (don't remember which one off the top of my head) so you could custom wire that single pin to a mono monitor. > Also, I was unable to locate the power supply. I notice it has the same > connection as my A500 supply, except the switch is on the CPU instead of > the PS. Could I use the A500 supply on the C=128 until I can dig up a > C=128 (or even C=64?) supply? > > The C=64 uses a DIN connector on the PS rather than the square (POST) connector of the 128. The pins of the 128 are as follows: 1: (shield) 2: key 3: signal ground 4: +5V 5: 9VAC 6: 9VAC The A500 power connector should NOT be connected to your 128 or you will have a serious problem. The 500 uses +- 12V on two of the pins so you will blow something up. > ok > r. > > PS; I'm still trying to find info on that TI-99/4A video cable. (: I have a couple of them but don't have info handy, will see if I can track. Cheers, Dan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 12 19:14:22 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at May 12, 98 07:02:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1117 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/9cb365da/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Tue May 12 19:31:10 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > If the triple-fault has to be detected by some piece of hardware outside > the CPU (which would be unlikely) then it can't work on a genuine IBM > (which is what IMHO defines a PC/AT). The only ways to reset the CPU on > that machine are by the power good signal from the PSU or the keyboard > controller. Tripple-fault is documented to put the CPU into the shutdown state. I know many mobo's tied this to reset (which is why your machine would mysteriously reboot when running buggy version of Windows, OS/2, etc). But I don't know if *all* mobo's or the original AT did this. -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Tue May 12 19:52:50 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION References: <000101bd7dfb$4eef2280$fde290d1@homepc.pdq.net> Message-ID: <3558EEE2.D95BB8D6@cnct.com> snoball wrote: > > Hi, I am a teacher here at the local elementary school in Humble, TX. To be > honest, the computer department here at the school is rather pathetic, two > Apple //e's and an XT that was donated that I can't get to work. To be > frank, these kids are going into a world where they are illiterate in the > basic workings of a computer. I hate to sound desperate, but I have just > exausted all leads I know to take on the matter. I saw your ad and thought Don't panic. Here in New Jersey, the kids are all experts at Nintendo (and some of the brighter lights at hacking security), but damned few can actually read the manuals. Remember, the most important component of "computer literacy" is "literacy". If the kids can read, they can learn computers. If they can't, there's not much else worth teaching them except to pee on the side of the dumpster the cops aren't watching. (I may be a bit prejudiced on the side of reading over computers -- I only have fifty-odd computers, I've got [half bought new] several thousand books, mostly the science fiction I've loved since before the "New Math" was introduced to my grade school [after I'd had the benefit of learning the stuff that worked].) -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From william at ans.net Tue May 12 19:49:45 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: strange z-80 / CP/M box In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980512175100.47e79cf2@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > It's not a 5100! They only had a single tape drive. No, IBM did have MASSIVE 8 inch drives for the 5100 (5108?). My system had two of the small file cabinet sized things, but they were scrapped out. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Tue May 12 20:08:51 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? References: Message-ID: <3558F2A3.3DA8A3A3@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > >The first requirement is that you're mad. > > > > Now that you're foaming blue at the mouth, you could give the speech > > about how to use the keyboard interface chip to bring the 286 into > > real mode and back again... :-) > > Sure, it's not _that_ hard... > > The problem is that the i80286 can go from real mode to protected mode, > but not back again. At least not without a hardware reset. > > Now, the keyboard controller output port bit 0 will, if pulsed low, reset > the microprocessor. There's a keyboard controller command for that - > 0xF1. You send that to output port 0x64. You also need to set the system > flag (send 0x60, 0x04 to port 0x64 (or maybe 0x60,0x05)), set the CMOS > shutdown bye (location 0x0F in the RTC) to 0x0A (to mean a user defined > reset), and set IO_ROM_INIT (far pointer at 0x0040:0067 (offset) and > 0x0040:0069 (segment) to point to your code. Or at least that's what I > think you do - it's late and I'm readign the BIOS code as I type... Yes, Tony, obviously "The first requirement is that you're mad." (We're not talking _angry_ here, kids! "Mad" in English isn't the same thing as in American.) -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Tue May 12 20:13:46 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? References: Message-ID: <3558F3CA.E1900823@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > If this is an undocumented feature of the CPU then it should work. Alas, > being undocumented there's no way I can look it up in the data book. What a special joy, though. I have several pounds (avoirdupois) of material on features in several generations of Motorola processors. Most of which I'm incompetent to use, and a few are documented to invoke the legendary HCF instruction. > > IBM certainly used the method I discribed in their BIOS. I've checked the > source listings. > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > -tony -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From adept at mcs.com Tue May 12 20:17:13 1998 From: adept at mcs.com (The Adept) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION References: <000101bd7dfb$4eef2280$fde290d1@homepc.pdq.net> <3558EEE2.D95BB8D6@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3558F498.24A16A31@mcs.com> Hear hear. Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > snoball wrote: > > > > Hi, I am a teacher here at the local elementary school in Humble, TX. To be > > honest, the computer department here at the school is rather pathetic, two > > Apple //e's and an XT that was donated that I can't get to work. To be > > frank, these kids are going into a world where they are illiterate in the > > basic workings of a computer. I hate to sound desperate, but I have just > > exausted all leads I know to take on the matter. I saw your ad and thought > > Don't panic. Here in New Jersey, the kids are all experts at > Nintendo (and some of the brighter lights at hacking security), > but damned few can actually read the manuals. Remember, the > most important component of "computer literacy" is "literacy". > If the kids can read, they can learn computers. If they can't, > there's not much else worth teaching them except to pee on the > side of the dumpster the cops aren't watching. (I may be a bit > prejudiced on the side of reading over computers -- I only have > fifty-odd computers, I've got [half bought new] several thousand > books, mostly the science fiction I've loved since before the > "New Math" was introduced to my grade school [after I'd had the > benefit of learning the stuff that worked].) > -- > Ward Griffiths > They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 12 20:13:00 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: strange z-80 / CP/M box In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980512175100.47e79cf2@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980512201300.48a7996c@intellistar.net> Hmmm. Never heard of that but I don't think that's what he has. I had the impression that his drives are part of the main unit. Dammed shame your drives were scrapped out. I'd love to have one for my 5100. Joe At 08:49 PM 5/12/98 -0400, you wrote: >> It's not a 5100! They only had a single tape drive. > >No, IBM did have MASSIVE 8 inch drives for the 5100 (5108?). My system had >two of the small file cabinet sized things, but they were scrapped out. > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net > > From manney at lrbcg.com Tue May 12 20:28:47 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: FS: Panasonic JR-200U Message-ID: <01bd7e0e$79f9d520$3928a2ce@laptop> Anyone interested in one? Excellent condition (still with packaging) and manuals. manney@lrbcg.com "Un sot trouve toujours un plus sot qui l'admire." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 12 20:05:24 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at May 12, 98 07:31:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 826 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/2f5fcc3a/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue May 12 20:34:42 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: iMac update Message-ID: <19980513013442.2998.qmail@hotmail.com> I'm sorry that this is OT, but I thought everyone should know that Apple has announced that upcoming laptops will NOT support SCSI or floppy drives (according to MSNBC). It's nice to know that now that Steve Jobs is back, Apple's gotten back to innovationg and changing stuff. I doubt the market cares, however. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From gzozman at escape.ca Tue May 12 19:24:54 1998 From: gzozman at escape.ca (Grant Zozman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: strange z-80 / CP/M box References: Message-ID: <3558E855.3D6F51C8@escape.ca> Is the case white? Is there a red power switch surrounded by black plastic at the lower right corner on the front? Do the drives close using levers which twist 90 degrees? Is the keyboard also built into the case? Does the screen blink off and on when the drives are being accessed? Weighs as much as a pallette of bricks? If so, I believe you have a 5120 (or possibly a 5110). These were produced around 1979-1980 just prior to the introduction of the PC. They would run either BASIC or APL, and could be equipped with an external disk drive module which was the size of a small filing cabinet, rolled on casters, and housed two additional 8" drives. A wide carriage dot matrix printer was also available. If I remember correctly there are three connectors on the back of the case of the computer in a triangular shape, with a threaded hole for a bolt in the middle. This is where the printer & drive unit connected. You might want to look for a silver tag on the back of the machine; I always thought IBM was pretty adament about putting a model number on anything they produced, but I don't remember there being any tags on the front of the machine I worked on years ago. Hope this helps! If you find out what you have, I would be interested in knowing the final outcome; I have heard others refer to a machine which fits this description as a "Datamaster", but have no idea what would make it different from a 5110/5120. K.S. (Tall Texan) Haley wrote: > I think we also acquired an IBM 5100. > This animal was without docs, but it boots to basic and has > a small mono screen and twin 8 inch drives. All the logic is > in one housing with the screen. I know someone was asking > around about such a computer recently. From gzozman at escape.ca Tue May 12 20:09:59 1998 From: gzozman at escape.ca (Grant Zozman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Help Needed: Kaypro 10 HDD Problems References: Message-ID: <3558F2E7.244E0D2F@escape.ca> Thanks for all the help so far :-) To address the questions people have asked: I have a program called FORMAT06.COM supplied on the original CP/M Autoload disks for the Kaypro. It seems to do a high level format (similar to DOS's FORMAT command). However when I run it, I get "Verify errors", so it does not seem capable of overcoming the problems the drive has. I do have PUTSYS and PUTOVL, and have executed them. Interestingly enough, they don't report any errors. However, as Don Maslin noted, these should be run after the drive is formatted, so at this point I don't think these utilities can solve my problem. In any case, I would suspect that if this was the only problem, I would still be able to pull up a directory of the hard drive (I can't); I just wouldn't be able to boot from it. Some have mentioned that the Tandon drive I have is not original, and that I should look for a Seagate (ST225 has been recommended), Shugart, or Microscience drive. Would I be able to use any 10MB MFM drive in place of the Tandon TM502? I am wondering specifically about physical size, location of mounting screws, and the connectors used. If someone has a good working drive (or knows where one can be sourced), please let me know. I am willing to pay a fair price for one. Bill and Allison, you mentioned that I might attempt a low level format. Barring physical damage on the disk, this sounds like the most likely cause of my problems; maybe the heads got bumped slightly out of alignment in shipping, and therefore cannot find the servo tracks any longer. I would like to try a low level format, but am not sure what the utility would be called. I have searched all the CP/M disks I have, and have turned up no programs which would indicate that they do a low level format. Would this utility have been supplied with CP/M? None of the books I have on CP/M mention anything about low level formatting (although most of them are too old to cover hard drives!). Any ideas on where I can find this utility would be welcome! If someone has a copy on a floppy, I would be more than willing to pay a fair price for your efforts to get a copy to me. From gram at cnct.com Tue May 12 20:47:47 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Amiga 600HD questions References: Message-ID: <3558FBC3.1CA585C4@cnct.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > If you have access to USENET the Amiga newsgroups are some of the best left > (man has USENET gone down hill since I first started using it). Just > beware the euphoria is running extremally high with everyone waiting for > the big announcement from Amiga, Inc. at "World of Amiga" in London this > weekend. The hype is this announcement will change the face of computing, > PERIOD, and will feature some BIG names. Hell, I was on the Usenet when it was just a partial feed from a friend at Cal Tech to my little TRS-80 Model 16 two miles away with its 15-Meg HD that could handle a month's worth of my partial feed at a time (a full feed would have choked it in less than a week -- if I could handle the bandwidth) at 1200 baud back in the stone age (1986-7), when bang-path email could take a week or more to turn around. Usenet was a bit surreal in those days of _severely_ asynchronous communication (not the modems, just the messages crossing paths). I loved it, and if the over-advertised Internet keeps screwing up, 56Kbps modems (and 10-321 or whatever the latest long distance cheap service is) would let us build a better new Usenet than there used to be. And anybody who gave the phone numbers to AOL, Hotmail, any such scum, or ever allowed a binary file that wasn't uuencoded (and useful -- no hundred-part fuzzy porn need apply) to go through would be flogged from all of the L.sys or Systems files forever. Oh yeah, this would of course be *nix based (Unix, Linux, Sunos, etc.) as the gods meant it to be -- PCs are welcome only as terminal emulators if they're hosting parasites such as Windows or MS-DOS. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 12 20:39:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION In-Reply-To: <3558EEE2.D95BB8D6@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at May 12, 98 08:52:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1729 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/afef6503/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue May 12 20:43:38 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION Message-ID: <19980513014338.23635.qmail@hotmail.com> When was this thing with "computer literacy in schools is everything" started? I like computers in schools, but I am tired of looking at proposed plans to replace 5 MORE classrooms with computer labs. Is this a classic thing? Would you in general say that computers have affected education (keeping the discussion OnT, of course). > >> snoball wrote: >> > >> > Hi, I am a teacher here at the local elementary school in Humble, TX. To be >> > honest, the computer department here at the school is rather pathetic, two >> > Apple //e's and an XT that was donated that I can't get to work. To be >> > frank, these kids are going into a world where they are illiterate in the >> > basic workings of a computer. I hate to sound desperate, but I have just >> > exausted all leads I know to take on the matter. I saw your ad and thought >> >> Don't panic. Here in New Jersey, the kids are all experts at >> Nintendo (and some of the brighter lights at hacking security), >> but damned few can actually read the manuals. Remember, the >> most important component of "computer literacy" is "literacy". >> If the kids can read, they can learn computers. If they can't, >> there's not much else worth teaching them except to pee on the >> side of the dumpster the cops aren't watching. (I may be a bit >> prejudiced on the side of reading over computers -- I only have >> fifty-odd computers, I've got [half bought new] several thousand >> books, mostly the science fiction I've loved since before the >> "New Math" was introduced to my grade school [after I'd had the >> benefit of learning the stuff that worked].) >> -- >> Ward Griffiths >> They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >> Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. >> Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 12 20:42:40 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? In-Reply-To: <3558F2A3.3DA8A3A3@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at May 12, 98 09:08:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 379 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/8371b9a6/attachment.ksh From adept at mcs.com Tue May 12 20:54:08 1998 From: adept at mcs.com (The Adept) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity Message-ID: <3558FD3F.6AC78BFA@mcs.com> I almost choked on my Leinenkugel's when I saw the current bid on the following: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13839197 I'll save the surprise for you who want to check it out (it's a Commodore Educator 64) Cheers, Dan From manney at lrbcg.com Tue May 12 20:45:08 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION Message-ID: <01bd7e10$c2727760$3928a2ce@laptop> Well, if someone will send me the 486's, I'll build and test 'em...that's my main business. -- I'm very low on everything, though, so I need your components. manney@lrbcg.com "Un sot trouve toujours un plus sot qui l'admire." From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue May 12 20:49:08 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Amiga 600HD questions Message-ID: <19980513014908.23688.qmail@hotmail.com> Would you allow CP/M? BOCHS Unix emulator? Macintosh? I will say only one thing: don't try to go back - it will never be the same, and you will only be disappointed (yes, I know you're only kidding). I don't really use USENET because it's a pain... > >Hell, I was on the Usenet when it was just a partial feed from a >friend at Cal Tech to my little TRS-80 Model 16 two miles away >with its 15-Meg HD that could handle a month's worth of my partial >feed at a time (a full feed would have choked it in less than a >week -- if I could handle the bandwidth) at 1200 baud back in the >stone age (1986-7), when bang-path email could take a week or more >to turn around. Usenet was a bit surreal in those days of >_severely_ asynchronous communication (not the modems, just the >messages crossing paths). I loved it, and if the over-advertised >Internet keeps screwing up, 56Kbps modems (and 10-321 or whatever >the latest long distance cheap service is) would let us build a >better new Usenet than there used to be. And anybody who gave >the phone numbers to AOL, Hotmail, any such scum, or ever allowed >a binary file that wasn't uuencoded (and useful -- no hundred-part >fuzzy porn need apply) to go through would be flogged from all of >the L.sys or Systems files forever. Oh yeah, this would of course >be *nix based (Unix, Linux, Sunos, etc.) as the gods meant it to >be -- PCs are welcome only as terminal emulators if they're >hosting parasites such as Windows or MS-DOS. >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue May 12 11:53:55 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS Message-ID: <000301bd7e13$c6aac280$746fbcc1@hotze> I am. In 7th grade. Still think that jr. high school's a COMPLETE waste of time, especially for geeks (or people like me, who like to consider themselves geeks, but probably couldn't make it...), at our school. No UNIX, no programming, not even a 32 bit OS!!! (And that's even counting Windows!!!!) All I really can do is do what I want in Computers... (but with the software that they've got available, the most I can do is type a word doc. instead of write an e-mail... TONS of freedom there...) Ciao, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Daniel A. Seagraves To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 7:14 PM Subject: Re: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS >[Any students?] > >I'm a high school student... >------- From yowza at yowza.com Tue May 12 21:11:50 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > However, IMHO it's a lot harder to get a CPU to tripple-fault than to > simply send a command to the keyboard controller. And you'd have to set > all the other things up no matter how you reset the CPU. Harder? Microsoft did it all the time without even trying :-) It only takes a few instructions, and doesn't require any slow I/O, so it's a handy technique if you ever have to write a new mode switching O/S for the 286. -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Tue May 12 22:10:11 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS References: Message-ID: <35590F13.CBD0BC9D@cnct.com> K.S. (Tall Texan) Haley wrote: > > Are there any students besides Derek on the list? > > I am a fourth year electrical engineering major here at > Oklahoma State. Well aside from the fact that we're _all_ students whether or not we're matriculated somewhere -- Tim Hotze is around here someplace and I'm pretty sure he's not officially in college yet. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Tue May 12 22:19:03 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: ASR33 References: <3558A0BB.6E64@bos.nl> Message-ID: <35591127.DA7C8DBF@cnct.com> wanderer wrote: > > Hi All, > > I recently acquired an ASR33 and I'm in need of some assitance in order > to be able to let it work against my Unix box. Tony Duel's response fits my memory on the wiring, but I really hope your intent is to have the machine work _with_, not _against_ your Unix box. Because if you want it to work _against_ your Unix box, I can provide wiring diagrams that are extremely user-unfriendly (while leaving the equipment intact for the heirs). > At the back of the powersupply there is a terminal strip with a number > of lugs. Question is, which lugs to use, the unit is an UCC-6 > (for private wire setups). > > Other problem is which voltage to use for the current loop to rs232, > I have a converter, and uses 5 volt maximum, and do not know if that > will work. If not, does someone then have a proper schematic? > > Thanks, > > Ed -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue May 12 22:25:41 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) Message-ID: <002e01bd7e1e$e4c24ee0$746fbcc1@hotze> Hi. This is semi-off topic, but I'm sure that if any replies are made, it'll eventually spin off to someone's tales of their PDP-8 in high school, or their first VIC-20... Anyway, as much as I can complain that I'm not getting a decent computer-education in school, I owe a lot to them. My first year here in Bahrain, I had just got my computer (a blasing fast 486 33!!!), running (what else) Windows 3.1 and DOS 6.22. I didn't know how to type, just use basic functions. I could get on CompuServe (at least in the US), etc. but not do anything "powerfull" I could launch CD-ROMS, install programs since I was 8, in 3rd grade. Then, in school that year, I learned to type. A significant 40WAM. (I thought this was miserrable, but now in typing, many 7th graders got like 19's, 25's...) Anyway, that gave me my basic computer skills. Now, in 6th grade, when I next did serious typing (4th grade was a mess, I skipped 5th grade), I found that my typing increased to 80WAM. (WPM??) Now, I find it's at 100-140. I owe all that to the school. Without learning how to type, I would never have gotten interested in e-mail, programming, computer science, CAD, grapics, number crunching, UN*X, or hardware stuff. Then, earlier on this year, I was asked to help make a computer couse for my grade at school. For the first couple weeks we wouldn't have a computer lab. So I did what I thought would work: Talked about the workings of a computer. Terms like OS, HDD, RAM, CPU, bus, HTML, web, modem, etc. Since then, I've been working to set up a browser-based Intranet. It's been a heck of a lot of fun, if not educatonal. Just my $0.02... Tim D. Hotze From homeline at ezl.com Tue May 12 22:39:45 1998 From: homeline at ezl.com (Cliff Boyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Kaypro problems Message-ID: <199805130339.WAA17042@ns.ezl.com> > >3) The fuse is fine, but the PSU won't start up. This is suprisingly >common (I've had it twice in the last month). Most small SMPSUs run the >control circuitry off one of the transformer outputs, which leads to a >bootstrap problem (the PSU can't run without the control circuit, but the >control circuit can't work without the PSU running). The solution is a >small circuit to give the control circuit enough power to start. In a lot >of cases this takes the form of a high-value resistor chain from the HT+ >(400V DC) line to the chopper control circuitry. And for some reason this >resistor open-circuits. It's worth checking all high-value resistors on >the primary side. > >When you've inspected the fuse, get back to us and we'll attempt to talk >you through the PSU... > >-tony > > > Well, I checked the fuse on the P/S, and its OK. So what is the next step? Is this something I can take to a repair shop. I know of a TV & stero shop that has worked wonders on an old Pioneer amplifier of mine. A P/S should be of no problem for them. I would like to attemp to fix my self, but I just don't have that sort of time at the moment! Or can anybody recommend someone I can send it (the power supply only) to for repair? Cliff Boyer From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue May 12 22:34:36 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS Message-ID: <003701bd7e20$254b7f80$746fbcc1@hotze> >Well aside from the fact that we're _all_ students whether or not >we're matriculated somewhere -- Tim Hotze is around here someplace >and I'm pretty sure he's not officially in college yet. Far from it, unfortunaetly. BTW, just for other students, or ex-students on the list: Yesterday I had my science fair project: Linux Vs. Windows. Now, I had two or three problems: 1) Couldn't seem to "dumb it down" enough to get the judges to understand. 2) Presentation wasn't really "flashy", more like a scientific paper. 3) The paper was too "dumbed down" to actually say what I wanted it to say. I couldn't do what I wanted to so that it would make sense to the judges. >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ Tim D. Hotze From gram at cnct.com Tue May 12 22:42:53 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS References: <000301bd7e13$c6aac280$746fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <355916BD.9ADEAC55@cnct.com> Hotze wrote: > > I am. In 7th grade. Still think that jr. high school's a COMPLETE waste of > time, especially for geeks (or people like me, who like to consider > themselves geeks, but probably couldn't make it...), at our school. No > UNIX, no programming, not even a 32 bit OS!!! (And that's even counting > Windows!!!!) All I really can do is do what I want in Computers... (but > with the software that they've got available, the most I can do is type a > word doc. instead of write an e-mail... TONS of freedom there...) Tim, when I was in the seventh grade, due to getting most of my _real_ education from the library at my own pace, I wasn't counting windows. There weren't enough of them. I simply kept working out new patterns for counting the holes in the acoustical ceilings, since the contractors had installed them unevenly and that killed _some_ of the time until the bell rang. Otherwise I let the teacher drone while I read something useful or interesting and answered the questions it asked on automatic pilot -- since I usually read the textbooks for the semester twice by the third day of class. Be warned -- if you go to a decent college that trick doesn't work. At last. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From marvin at rain.org Tue May 12 22:54:18 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Help Needed: Kaypro 10 HDD Problems References: <1998May12.085259.1767.102567@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <3559196A.AAFFD575@rain.org> Marty wrote: > > If all else fails you may want to try a low level format on the hard > drive. Boot with a MS-Dos ver 2.10 or later, run debug. At the '_' > prompt type in g=c800:5 which should access the controller rom and > enable you to low level format (it is menu driven). Your > Tandon has 306 cylinders, 4 heads and 17 sectors per track. After the > low level format procede with the high level partitioning and > formatting. > I'm not familiar with the Kaypro 10 HD Controller but I am guessing it uses a WD HD controller. One of the things I *always* do before using debug and the "g=c800:5" command is to unassemble that location first (u c800:5) to make sure it contains a jmp instruction. Other locations that I've seen include c800:6 and cc00:5. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue May 12 18:59:02 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) In-Reply-To: <002e01bd7e1e$e4c24ee0$746fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <199805130356.XAA06057@mail.cgocable.net> Guys! That is kind of skills we like to see and that only works at its best combeing good understanding of a computer is and ablility to read and understand data crowding into one's head. These days, Colleges are taking on new students who can't tell which end of a mouse is?! Apple and 8bitters of it's ilks that is found in K-12 has it's places because these are what excels at teaching kids materials but in high school level, we need to convert guys over to real things like windows and 486 boxens, unix and like using word processing and speadsheets, such yak yak..of most types not including 100% dumb M$ stuff. But this is not happening at right rates of putting out computer-ready students for colleges and U's. :) Sad! My wpm is not that good as you do but very respectable about 50-60 wpm but it get higher when I look at paper and blast away. But this is thanks to high school grade 9, In canadian, it is K-8 then 9-12/13 in high school when I did first thing when I took up typing on those Selectric (!!) whirring, bopping spinning silver golf-ball in '88. (Note, as I went thru H.S. in next few years, I saw them replaced with ibm new PS/2 30 boxens. And at one time I had my own used Selectric (what a concrept! but my interest is waning to computers stuff at that time). The wpm effected because I pause often and think, do in-stream editing then contiune. I'm more of action and thinker like this. Uh, during that time in HS, I picked up several old discarded machines including 3 MBC-555 Sanyos , Horrible boxens when I heard about them again here finally understood why. :) , and one TRS-80 III to play with BASIC book but I was total clutz at it (boring without disks even it had drives in it.) Even one time had Apple II+ but it somehow blew up and I couldn't fix it so it disappeared. sorry! :( Jason D. > Hi. This is semi-off topic, but I'm sure that if any replies are made, > it'll eventually spin off to someone's tales of their PDP-8 in high school, > or their first VIC-20... Snip for brevity... good thoughts and wonderful story of yours! > Since then, I've been working to set up a browser-based Intranet. It's > been a heck of a lot of fun, if not educatonal. > Just my $0.02... > > Tim D. Hotze email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Tue May 12 23:17:50 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Help Needed: Kaypro 10 HDD Problems In-Reply-To: <3559196A.AAFFD575@rain.org> from "Marvin" at May 12, 98 08:54:18 pm Message-ID: <199805130417.AAA21517@shell.monmouth.com> > > Marty wrote: > > > > If all else fails you may want to try a low level format on the hard > > drive. Boot with a MS-Dos ver 2.10 or later, run debug. At the '_' > > prompt type in g=c800:5 which should access the controller rom and > > enable you to low level format (it is menu driven). Your > > Tandon has 306 cylinders, 4 heads and 17 sectors per track. After the > > low level format procede with the high level partitioning and > > formatting. > > > > I'm not familiar with the Kaypro 10 HD Controller but I am guessing it > uses a WD HD controller. One of the things I *always* do before using > debug and the "g=c800:5" command is to unassemble that location first (u > c800:5) to make sure it contains a jmp instruction. Other locations > that I've seen include c800:6 and cc00:5. > Is this a troll? This is only on the IBM PC Bus controllers that have bios roms for controller identification. OEM'd WD100x's like those in the Kaypro and Perkin-Elmer 7300/7350 Unix boxes do not have this feature (or the debug program to use it). Bill who owned a number of WD1001 and WD1002-HDO controllers. +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From engine at chac.org Tue May 12 23:44:45 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: <3558FD3F.6AC78BFA@mcs.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980512214445.00f46390@pop.batnet.com> At 20:54 5/12/98 -0500, you wrote: >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13839197 > >I'll save the surprise for you who want to check it out (it's a >Commodore Educator 64) So will I, but it at least makes sense that the bidders seem to be no one we know. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From everly at interpac.net Tue May 12 23:46:28 1998 From: everly at interpac.net (Loren Everly) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) In-Reply-To: <199805130356.XAA06057@mail.cgocable.net> References: <002e01bd7e1e$e4c24ee0$746fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: >Guys! > >That is kind of skills we like to see and that only works at its best >combeing good understanding of a computer is and ablility to read and >understand data crowding into one's head. These days, Colleges are >taking on new students who can't tell which end of a mouse is?! > >Apple and 8bitters of it's ilks that is found in K-12 has it's places >because these are what excels at teaching kids materials but in high >school level, we need to convert guys over to real things like >windows and 486 boxens, unix and like using word processing and >speadsheets, such yak yak..of most types not including 100% dumb M$ >stuff. In high school they should be teahing on macs. That shows what the average user will see in 10 years(after m$ has copied it all) ;-). Btw this isn't a call for flame wars :-). > >But this is not happening at right rates of putting out >computer-ready students for colleges and U's. :) > >Sad! My typing skills really suck, I can't even keep my eyes off the keyboard 100% of the time. Loren. > >My wpm is not that good as you do but very respectable about 50-60 >wpm but it get higher when I look at paper and blast away. But this >is thanks to high school grade 9, In canadian, it is K-8 then 9-12/13 >in high school when I did first thing when I took up typing on those >Selectric (!!) whirring, bopping spinning silver golf-ball in '88. >(Note, as I went thru H.S. in next few years, I saw them replaced >with ibm new PS/2 30 boxens. And at one time I had my own used >Selectric (what a concrept! but my interest is waning to computers >stuff at that time). The wpm effected because I pause often and >think, do in-stream editing then contiune. I'm more of action and >thinker like this. > >Uh, during that time in HS, >I picked up several old discarded machines including 3 MBC-555 Sanyos >, Horrible boxens when I heard about them again here finally >understood why. :) , and one TRS-80 III to play with BASIC book but >I was total clutz at it (boring without disks even it had drives in >it.) Even one time had Apple II+ but it somehow blew up and I >couldn't fix it so it disappeared. sorry! :( > >Jason D. > >> Hi. This is semi-off topic, but I'm sure that if any replies are made, >> it'll eventually spin off to someone's tales of their PDP-8 in high school, >> or their first VIC-20... > >Snip for brevity... good thoughts and wonderful story of yours! > >> Since then, I've been working to set up a browser-based Intranet. It's >> been a heck of a lot of fun, if not educatonal. >> Just my $0.02... >> >> Tim D. Hotze > >email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca >Pero, Jason D. From marvin at rain.org Tue May 12 23:47:29 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:50 2005 Subject: Help Needed: Kaypro 10 HDD Problems References: <199805130417.AAA21517@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <355925E1.E7A725A9@rain.org> Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > > > > I'm not familiar with the Kaypro 10 HD Controller but I am guessing > it > > uses a WD HD controller. One of the things I *always* do before > using > > debug and the "g=c800:5" command is to unassemble that location > first (u > > c800:5) to make sure it contains a jmp instruction. Other locations > > that I've seen include c800:6 and cc00:5. > > > > Is this a troll? I don't know, is it? My comment was addressing more the use of debug and the "g" command than the Kaypro line of computers. A friend of mine has about 6 of them stored in his garage, and it is probably time to learn a bit more about them and help him gain some space :). > This is only on the IBM PC Bus controllers that have bios roms for > controller identification. OEM'd WD100x's like those in the Kaypro Makes sense to me! From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed May 13 01:59:23 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Interesting c64 usage Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980512112742.3b6fa04c@ricochet.net> Last weekend I was at a garage sale where I spotted a c64 with an interesting job. It was connected to a mixing board to provide automation. That is, the c64 was used to control the functions of the mixer so as to be able to repeast a setup exactly. Pretty neat, and I wouldn't have minded getting it (I've been lusting after 8-bus multichannel mixer for years) but I couldn't justify the $1300 the guy wanted for it. 8^( Came with an interface box, btw, that had the software in it (presumably in ROM) for the automation. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From dastar at wco.com Wed May 13 02:09:06 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: <3558FD3F.6AC78BFA@mcs.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 May 1998, The Adept wrote: > I almost choked on my Leinenkugel's when I saw the current bid on the > following: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13839197 > > I'll save the surprise for you who want to check it out (it's a > Commodore Educator 64) Holy Crap! I should just sell my damn collection at the prices some of these goons are paying. I could pay off all my bills AND put in that pool I've always wanted, plus put a down payment on the Viper. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From engine at chac.org Wed May 13 02:17:10 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: References: <3558FD3F.6AC78BFA@mcs.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980513001710.00fcee70@pop.batnet.com> At 00:09 5/13/98 -0700, Sam wrote: >....I could pay off all my bills AND put in that pool >I've always wanted, plus put a down payment on the Viper. They let you make time payments on video cards? (p. s. ;-)) __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From yowza at yowza.com Wed May 13 03:28:50 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: <3558FD3F.6AC78BFA@mcs.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 May 1998, The Adept wrote: > I almost choked on my Leinenkugel's when I saw the current bid on the > following: What's a Leinenkugel, and how much will you sell it to me for? > I'll save the surprise for you who want to check it out (it's a > Commodore Educator 64) Is this the Commie holy grail or something? I've never seen an old Commodore go for over $500 before. The collective mind of the web tells me that Commodore used to take refurb'd C64 guts, stick them in spare PET boxes that were sitting around, and sell them to schools cheaply. I'd rather have an eMate. -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Wed May 13 04:05:22 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: About the Wang '669 patent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For those that were vaguely interested in this case, the score is Evil Empire 0, Underdog 1: http://www.mozilla.org/legal/wang-dismissed.html And as proof that collecting junky old computers has its perqs, Netscape is sending me a "My old computer helped kick Microsoft's butt" (or something to that effect) T-shirt for my useless reference to GRiD/OS as prior art for this case! -- Doug From desieh at southcom.com.au Wed May 13 04:38:45 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (desieh@southcom.com.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity Message-ID: <199805130934.TAA24480@hobart.southcom.com.au> email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm >On Tue, 12 May 1998, The Adept wrote: > >> I almost choked on my Leinenkugel's when I saw the current bid on the >> following: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13839197 >> >> I'll save the surprise for you who want to check it out (it's a >> Commodore Educator 64) > >Holy Crap! I should just sell my damn collection at the prices some of >these goons are paying. I could pay off all my bills AND put in that pool >I've always wanted, plus put a down payment on the Viper. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: >dastar@siconic.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----- >Ever onward. > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 05/11/98] > yeah well a fool is born every 1 second dont they say? or was it a fool and thier money soon part......... man I could get that Cadilliac Ive always wanted if i sold my collection...... From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Wed May 13 04:45:00 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Another strange z-80 / CP/M box... Message-ID: Ok, whilst on the subject of big old CP/M machines.. I've got an old Philips P3800 machine, in a grey cabinet about 1 metre deep, maybe 80cm high and 40cm wide. Tracking down any info on it has proved impossible so far; has anyone got one of these they could share information about, or know anything about them? It was damaged in a flood a few years ago, the switchmode PSU in it has failed and just gives a whining noise when power is applied - I seem to remember I tried loading the PSU without connecting it up to the system backplane or drives, so I think it really has failed rather than there being a short or anything within the system. The hard drive (I *think* it was a10MB Seagate full-height, sadly my entire collection is a couple of hundred miles away from me so I can't check!) controller board went with a bang when power was applied - can I simply swap in another board from an identical drive in the hope that this'll work, or are boards calibrated in some way to their respective motors? I tried this swapping with another identical drive and the drive span up ok, so maybe it would work... I don't know what state the data on the drive it in though. Other info needed: Tape drive - mine is missing, having been put in another machine years ago. Anyone know what sort it was, and will the system run without it? Cabling - what sort of terminal could be connected to the cables hanging out the back of the machine? Are they RS232 in which case a vt100 could be used? Was there the concept of a console, or would the machine silently boot? What was needed to boot the machine? Would it boot from hard drive, or was a floppy needed? (I have zero docs and disks for this thing sadly...) Phew! That'll do for now I guess! :*) cheers, Jules From Andy.Keeble at Royal-London-ins.co.uk Wed May 13 04:51:07 1998 From: Andy.Keeble at Royal-London-ins.co.uk (Keeble, Andy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Grundy Newbrain Computer wont power up. Message-ID: <94E7F4E958A9D11196EE00805FE66F1E57A054@RLHS40EXC02> > -----Original Message----- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [SMTP:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 7:15 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Grundy Newbrain Computer wont power up. > > > > > Can anyone help me bring an old British Computer back to life. > > > > Last night I bought a early 1980's Grundy Systems Newbrain "AD" > computer > > from an advert in the local newspaper. > > (See http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~e.tedeschi/picts/newbrain.jpg) > > > > The machine is in good condition, with original manuals, cables, > psu, > > and even some software. > > > > Unfortunately it wont power up. > > I have the Newbrain schematics somewhere if that would be any help. > Unfortunately I don't have schematics for the PSU, but I think that's > a > pretty simple linear unit. [Keeble, Andy] I only had a quick look at it the previous night, but had a bit more in depth look last night. It does look like a PSU problem, and yes the PSU looks straghtforward enough. > > > > Turning on, the LED display flickers and goes blank (although the > manual > > Actually, it's a fluorescent anode display (see the other > thread...)... [Keeble, Andy] Indeed, I only saw a quick flash on power up, and presumed it was led. When I opened it up last night I got a better look. > > says it should do this, although I don't get a test pattern which I > > think I should) On the Television/video output I just get a white > > screen. > > > > Does anybody know if these machines suffered from any common faults? > > Check the PSU. The easiest way to do this is to check the 3 supply > lines > at the 4116 DRAM chips (+5V, +12V, -5V). If any are missing or > incorrect > then the machine won't power up. [Keeble, Andy] The PSU says something like +6v +12v and -13v. I found the +12v ok, but the other two outputs are showing +20v, so I guess its a voltage reg problem. (These are offload values). > Check the inter-board ribbon cables for broken wires (they're solid > core > and break easily). [Keeble, Andy] I will check that, but I suspect I may have already found the fault, due to the high readings from the psu, just hope it has damaged any chips in the machine? > Apart from that, if the PSU is OK, you're going to have to > troubleshoot > this one starting at the Z80 (what is it doing) and working through > the > logic. I don't know of any stock faults on these machines. [Keeble, Andy] I thought before spending hours, I would ask folks on the mailing list, just in case there were any common problems. I used to work in a computer shop in the early 80's and several makes of machines came in with the same fault. We didnt deal with Newbrain back then, so I didnt get any experience of them. If I get the PSU working, and find I need a schematic, would you be willing to scan a copy and email it, or photocopy and post it (I would pay any expenses). There seems to be little info about the Newbrain on the net, and I guess not that many still exist, so it seems a shame not to try and put some effort in trying to get this one working again. > -tony From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Wed May 13 05:41:43 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: 3.5" Drive for Apple ??? Message-ID: Greetings, Last week, along with a boxload of other stuff, I picked up an external 3.5" floppy drive that apears to be intended for Apple machines. It's a DS800 from DataSpace Corporation. It physically plugs into my Apple //c, but I can't get the machine to recognize it. The drive makes a noise when I power up the computer, but that's all. Attempts to access S6, D2 or any other slot and drive combination doesn't get anywhere. It DOES respond to my Mac 512K, though. I plugged it into that machine and shoved a Mac-formatted disk in it, and an icon and open window popped up. I don't think the drive can be intended for the Mac, though, because it's got a MECHANICAL eject mechanism. In fact I was able to eject that Mac disk (write protected, thankfully ;) ) and the Mac didn't notice. Is there something I need to do to get my //c to recognize the drive? Or is it intended for use on a //gs? Or did this company make a line of dangerous Mac peripherals in an attempt to give the platform a bad name for an overabundance of disk corruptions? ;) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed May 13 08:24:09 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: ASR33 Message-ID: <9804138950.AA895091277@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I'm pretty sure the teletype is a passive device and expects the other > device to source the loop current. > > 5V should be enough for the transmitter loop (which is just switch > contacts), but I doubt if it would be enough for the receiver loop (more > like 12V or more here) I used a TTY ASR-33 as a printer for my PET years ago. My memory is that if I left the receiver open circuit, i yammered away printing nulls; if I shorted out the loop it didn't. I interfaced it using one transistor - no power supply was necessary. +---------------------- | OUT b |/c -------/\/\/\/---------| NPN TTY |\e PET | -------------------------+---------------------- GND Note: I never interfaced the TTY transmitter - not even for reading paper tape (don't know why not) Philip. From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed May 13 07:28:15 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) References: <199805130356.XAA06057@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <355991DE.BD5C7EFA@bbtel.com> jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > That is kind of skills we like to see and that only works at its best > combeing good understanding of a computer is and ablility to read and > understand data crowding into one's head. These days, Colleges are > taking on new students who can't tell which end of a mouse is?! From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed May 13 08:31:51 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: strange z-80 / CP/M box Message-ID: <9804138950.AA895091637@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Grant Zozman wrote: > Is the case white? > Is there a red power switch surrounded by black plastic at the lower > right corner on the front? > Do the drives close using levers which twist 90 > degrees? Is the keyboard also built into the case? > Does the screen blink off and on when the drives are being accessed? > Weighs as much as a pallette of bricks? > > If so, I believe you have a 5120 (or possibly a 5110). These were > produced around 1979-1980 just prior to the introduction of the PC. > They would run either BASIC or APL, and could be equipped with an > external disk drive module which was the size of a small filing > cabinet, rolled on casters, and housed two additional 8" drives. A > wide carriage dot matrix printer was also available. If I remember > correctly there are three connectors on the back of the case of the > computer in a triangular shape, with a threaded hole for a bolt in the > middle. This is where the printer & drive unit connected. > > You might want to look for a silver tag on the back of the machine; I > always thought IBM was pretty adament about putting a model number on > anything they produced, but I don't remember there being any tags on the > front of the machine I worked on years ago. > > Hope this helps! If you find out what you have, I would be > interested in knowing the final outcome; I have heard others refer to > a machine which fits this description as a "Datamaster", but have no > idea what would make it different from a 5110/5120. That mostly tallies with my memory of my Datamaster (which I haven't powered up in ages). Mine is a 5322, and calls itself System/23 I've never met the 5110 or 5120, I'm afraid. Word of warning: If you have a Datamaster and power it up without the printer it fails diagnostics. However, if you then press the Error Reset (or some such name) key, it goes on booting (into ROM BASIC) quite happily. But what's this in the subject line? IBM never made a Z80 CP/M box that I know of. The Datamaster had an 8085, but didn't run CPM AFAIK; the Displaywriter had an 8088 and ran CP/M86 as an option. (Displaywriter: Much more modern styling. Tilt and swivel screen, separate dual 8" disk unit, separate keyboard. Looked not unlike a PET 8032SK.) Philip. From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed May 13 07:41:52 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Interesting c64 usage References: <3.0.16.19980512112742.3b6fa04c@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <35599510.9483E523@bbtel.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > Last weekend I was at a garage sale where I spotted a c64 with an > interesting job. It was connected to a mixing board to provide automation. > That is, the c64 was used to control the functions of the mixer so as to > be able to repeast a setup exactly. Pretty neat, and I wouldn't have > minded getting it (I've been lusting after 8-bus multichannel mixer for > years) but I couldn't justify the $1300 the guy wanted for it. 8^( Did you ask if he added one too many zeros? Obviously the guy is heavy into hallucenogenic drugs...The Commie itself is worth *maybe* $40 and the mixer is worth maybe another $200 if your lucky. I have seen and done some things with those obscure little breadboxes though that most people would never think possible. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed May 13 07:48:14 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS References: <000301bd7e13$c6aac280$746fbcc1@hotze> <355916BD.9ADEAC55@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3559968E.7FF99E1B@bbtel.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Hotze wrote: > > > > I am. In 7th grade. Still think that jr. high school's a COMPLETE waste of > > time, especially for geeks (or people like me, who like to consider > > themselves geeks, but probably couldn't make it...), at our school. No > > UNIX, no programming, not even a 32 bit OS!!! (And that's even counting > > Windows!!!!) All I really can do is do what I want in Computers... (but > > with the software that they've got available, the most I can do is type a > > word doc. instead of write an e-mail... TONS of freedom there...) > > Tim, when I was in the seventh grade, due to getting most of my _real_ > education from the library at my own pace, I wasn't counting windows. > There weren't enough of them. I simply kept working out new patterns > for counting the holes in the acoustical ceilings, since the contractors > had installed them unevenly and that killed _some_ of the time until the > bell rang. When I was in 7th grade I was pondering what the newest Terrahawks and Thunderbirds episode would be and what I was going to do if the Vietnam "conflict" went on past when I graduated high school in 1974. The only "pooters" we had then were some networked (if you can call it that) typing equipment and teletype terminals in the business classes. High school has it's palce, just as college does. Of course if you look at the high schools and many colleges now you'd have to wonder why they eeven bother going to any classes other than home room for attendance check in. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed May 13 07:56:01 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: HP terminal FS -one left Message-ID: <35599860.708FA8FF@bbtel.com> Here's the last of the old and new terminal units I have - I have one remaining Hewlett Packard 700/44 with amber video. Has a current loop and rs-232 connector and comes with a like new keyboard. Works great, looks lke new. $15 plus shipping (22 lbs) or I may trade for a few odds-n-ends that equate to the cost. Of course the buyer pays the shipping unless a trade is worked out at an equivelant rate. Thanks to everyone for allowing me to put these up which also kept them out of the landfill. Many people out my way would have no idea what they are and they'd become dumpster filler if I hadn't found homes for items such asd the VT 100 and 131. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed May 13 08:09:22 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: OS/2 Warp 3 Help... (Yes, off topic...) Message-ID: <004b01bd7e70$6ec3bb00$746fbcc1@hotze> OK... remember that Arthur J. Carp fellow... well, I got a copy of Warp 3... 3.5" disks. (It's been a while...) Anyway, this is semi-on topic, as OS/2's a pretty good story, and older versions are classic. So here's the deal. I can get all the way to Disk 6, then I re-insert the Install diskette. Then, it asks me to reboot. I reboot, and it's not there. I also have Windows 95 on this system. So how do I: Get past that 2) Get to see the drive's contents (it's not the same C as FAT 32 sees it...) Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From Marty at itgonline.com Wed May 13 08:44:40 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION Message-ID: <1998May13.094402.1767.102920@smtp.itgonline.com> Personally, I believe the "computer literacy in schools is everything" movement is a result of inept teachers and a haywire NEA. Here in the Washington, D.C. area I have read reports of teachers pushing 'invented' spelling as a method to avoid hurting the challenged student's self esteem. Educators seem to think the student will eventually learn to spell correctly later in life or that spell-checks in software will correct them. What a cop out. I don't believe students should be introduced to computers (read: word processors/calculators) until the first year of high school after mastering basic reading, comprehension, writing and math skills. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 5/12/98 9:47 PM When was this thing with "computer literacy in schools is everything" started? I like computers in schools, but I am tired of looking at proposed plans to replace 5 MORE classrooms with computer labs. Is this a classic thing? Would you in general say that computers have affected education (keeping the discussion OnT, of course). > >> snoball wrote: >> > >> > Hi, I am a teacher here at the local elementary school in Humble, TX. To be >> > honest, the computer department here at the school is rather pathetic, two >> > Apple //e's and an XT that was donated that I can't get to work. To be >> > frank, these kids are going into a world where they are illiterate in the >> > basic workings of a computer. I hate to sound desperate, but I have just >> > exausted all leads I know to take on the matter. I saw your ad and thought >> >> Don't panic. Here in New Jersey, the kids are all experts at >> Nintendo (and some of the brighter lights at hacking security), >> but damned few can actually read the manuals. Remember, the >> most important component of "computer literacy" is "literacy". >> If the kids can read, they can learn computers. If they can't, >> there's not much else worth teaching them except to pee on the >> side of the dumpster the cops aren't watching. (I may be a bit >> prejudiced on the side of reading over computers -- I only have >> fifty-odd computers, I've got [half bought new] several thousand >> books, mostly the science fiction I've loved since before the >> "New Math" was introduced to my grade school [after I'd had the >> benefit of learning the stuff that worked].) >> -- >> Ward Griffiths >> They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >> Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. >> Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998May12.214741.1767.41390; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:47:41 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id SAA20582; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:45:24 -0700 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id SAA10688 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:43:42 -0700 Received: from hotmail.com (f185.hotmail.com [207.82.251.74]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with SMTP id SAA03234 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:43:41 -0700 Received: (qmail 23636 invoked by uid 0); 13 May 1998 01:43:38 -0000 Received: from 207.78.94.40 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:43:38 PDT Message-Id: <19980513014338.23635.qmail@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:43:38 PDT Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: "Max Eskin" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION Content-Type: text/plain X-Originating-IP: [207.78.94.40] X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From scott at saskatoon.com Wed May 13 08:50:48 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Interesting c64 usage In-Reply-To: <35599510.9483E523@bbtel.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 May 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Uncle Roger wrote: > > > minded getting it (I've been lusting after 8-bus multichannel mixer for > > years) but I couldn't justify the $1300 the guy wanted for it. 8^( > > Did you ask if he added one too many zeros? Obviously the guy is heavy into > hallucenogenic drugs...The Commie itself is worth *maybe* $40 and the mixer is > worth maybe another $200 if your lucky. I have seen and done some things with Hmmm... The last 8-bus automated mixer that I looked at was priced at $5000, which I thought was a great deal. (Yes, this is recently.) I'm not sure how you can say that a mixer is only worth $200 with the only information being that it's 8-bus and automated. (Unless I'm missing something here?) BTW, the one I was looking at was an Allan & Heath GS/3 32x8 with an Atari computer for automation. ttyl srw From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 13 08:58:38 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Help Needed: Kaypro 10 HDD Problems Message-ID: <199805131358.AA02994@world.std.com> set device/flame_thrower/temp=plasma Most non-PC systems are _not_ PCs and applying PC part numbers, addresses methods, installation tools, device notation, buses, and dos operating system to the non PC results in confusion if not outright error. $user1:> set device/noflame Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 13 08:58:24 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) Message-ID: <199805131358.AA02823@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199805131303.IAA01566@trailingedge.com> Early versions of the Apple //c didn't have the support for 3.5" drives. Mine is like that. You can check which version of the //c you have by going into Applesoft and doing a PRINT PEEK(64447). If it returns 255 then you have an original //c. The tech ref shows 3 basic versions and their ID bytes as follows: Original //c : ID Byte = 255 UniDisk //c : ID Byte = 0 Added 3.5" support Increased ROM to 256K Some new serial port commands Mini-assembler New monitor commands Built-in diagnostics Improved interrupt handler & external drive startup Memory Expansion //c : ID Byte = 3 Added internal memory expansion connector Change RAM ICs Moved mouse from slot 4 to slot 7 New version of Protocol Converter called SmartPort Hope that helps. On 13 May 98 at 6:41, Doug Spence wrote: > It physically plugs into my Apple //c, but I can't get the machine > to recognize it. The drive makes a noise when I power up the > computer, but that's all. Attempts to access S6, D2 or any other > slot and drive combination doesn't get anywhere. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge From bill.sheehan at stoneweb.com Wed May 13 09:16:08 1998 From: bill.sheehan at stoneweb.com (bill.sheehan@stoneweb.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity Message-ID: <85256603.004DE4CA.00@bos_notes1.swec.com> "The value of a thing Is what that thing will bring." - Ancient Legal Maxim Seriously, note that the last two bidders have a zero experience rating, and the high bidder is from AOL. We won't know what the third bid was until after the auction, but he's the only bidder I'd take seriously. By the bye, I recently bought a DEC terminal from this seller, and found them to be both conscientious and professional. The Adept on 05/12/98 09:54:08 PM Please respond to classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" cc: (bcc: Bill Sheehan/Corporate/SWEC) Subject: Another EBay absurdity I almost choked on my Leinenkugel's when I saw the current bid on the following: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13839197 I'll save the surprise for you who want to check it out (it's a Commodore Educator 64) Cheers, Dan From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 13 09:26:00 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980513092600.00c3f2c0@pc> At 03:28 AM 5/13/98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote: > >On Tue, 12 May 1998, The Adept wrote: > >> I almost choked on my Leinenkugel's when I saw the current bid on the >> following: > >What's a Leinenkugel, and how much will you sell it to me for? Wisconsin beer, see . Good stuff for $5.20 a six-pack of bottles. Just to keep it on topic, it's not far from Cray Research in Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin. Cray's web site doesn't advertise a real tour but there's a virtual one. Leinie's has a real tour with free beer. And if you're touring, don't forget the pie at the Norske Nook in Osseo. >Is this the Commie holy grail or something? I've never seen an old >Commodore go for over $500 before. Perhaps Someone should make a web site with reports of classic system sale prices, in order to balance the tales of $500 PETs with $5 PETs. Like anything else, so many other factors must be considered: rarity, condition, history, etc. - John From lgroebe at insidermarketing.com Wed May 13 09:38:12 1998 From: lgroebe at insidermarketing.com (Larry Groebe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity Message-ID: <19980513093243.1a772468.in@insidermarketing.com> >At 03:28 AM 5/13/98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote (more or less): > >Perhaps Someone should make a web site with reports of classic >system sale prices, in order to balance the tales of $500 PETs >with $5 PETs. Like anything else, so many other factors must >be considered: rarity, condition, history, etc. > >- John Actually, David Greelish (of "historically brewed" and the "classic computing society") is attempting just such an online price guide. His efforts so far can be seen on: http://members.aol.com/mtpro/ From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Wed May 13 10:01:28 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Help Needed: Kaypro 10 HDD Problems In-Reply-To: <199805131358.AA02994@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at May 13, 98 09:58:38 am Message-ID: <199805131501.LAA09105@shell.monmouth.com> > Err Bill, > > The kaypro had DDT (cpm debugger). ;) You are coorect in that the -HDO > and SCSI version did not have the rom that the XT had to have to over come > the limited bios in the machine that didn't know about the HD. > > > Allison > > Well, yes. But G=c8000:5 wouldn't cut it. Bill (nice Vax notation) +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed May 13 10:14:56 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: OS/2 Warp 3 Help... (Yes, off topic...) Message-ID: <2274091.3559b8f1@aol.com> In a message dated 98-05-13 09:10:41 EDT, you write: << OK... remember that Arthur J. Carp fellow... well, I got a copy of Warp 3... 3.5" disks. (It's been a while...) Anyway, this is semi-on topic, as OS/2's a pretty good story, and older versions are classic. So here's the deal. I can get all the way to Disk 6, then I re-insert the Install diskette. Then, it asks me to reboot. I reboot, and it's not there. I also have Windows 95 on this system. So how do I: Get past that 2) Get to see the drive's contents (it's not the same C as FAT 32 sees >> if youve got win95 on there, you'll need to setup boot manager. i have two machines in a triple boot setup; pcdos7-win3.1/win95/warp and win95/nt/warp message me privately if more details are needed. david From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed May 13 10:20:57 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity References: <19980513093243.1a772468.in@insidermarketing.com> Message-ID: <3559BA58.E71F15AF@bbtel.com> Larry Groebe wrote: > Actually, David Greelish (of "historically brewed" and the "classic > computing society") is attempting just such an online price guide. His > efforts so far can be seen on: > > http://members.aol.com/mtpro/ I don't think he's done much research though as I've seen prices on the auctions way more than some of his listings and some way under. A C=64 at $20 is what they normally go for and I've seen $150 and more for one. Yes, the condition, rarity ann accessories is a consideration. I don't see anyone paying up to $15000 for a 1977 Apple computer of any model. Our local grade school just dumped 25 of the original Apple II's for $100 for all of them with the printers, software and drives. They've had them since they were new under the "donation" system that Apple had for schools back then. The person that boght them (not me) sold them for $25 a set and sold them all in less than a week to people in this an surrounding counties - people that are anything from collectors to users. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kyrrin at jps.net Wed May 13 10:29:57 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Displays needed Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980513082957.00e54c20@mail.wa.jps.net> This is a long shot, but what the hey... I have a 10 or so year-old satellite clock that gets its time signals from the GOES birds. It works very well indeed, but some of the display elements are beginning to get dim. It uses seven-segment neon-discharge displays. The first group of three is the day of the year. The next three pairs are hours/mins/secs. The day of year and seconds are the ones that are going dim. Does anyone know of a source for replacement displays of this type? (Are these what Burroughs called 'Panaplex?') Also, Daniel Seagraves has discovered that his RSTS 10.1 tape is trashed. Does anyone else happen to have RSTS 10.x on 9-track that they'd be willing to loan long enough for me to do a bit-copy of it? Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed May 13 10:40:42 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Interesting c64 usage References: Message-ID: <3559BEF9.8E4E1B0D@bbtel.com> Scott Walde wrote: > Hmmm... The last 8-bus automated mixer that I looked at was priced at > $5000, which I thought was a great deal. (Yes, this is recently.) I'm > not sure how you can say that a mixer is only worth $200 with the only > information being that it's 8-bus and automated. (Unless I'm missing > something here?) Well that's true. I've had IEEE 488 test equipment that Tucker resells for $10k get sold for a more realistic $150 so what it's advertised for commercially doesn't mean that this is the price it fetches. There were people in the local flea markets selling various brands from Yamaha to Korg out here for anywhere from $50 to $500 dependant upon features and age. Haven't seen them around lately but all the stuff they had was clean, operable and actually legal. > BTW, the one I was looking at was an Allan & Heath GS/3 32x8 with an Atari > computer for automation. I imagine the demand on your part versus the supply of what you need makes it necessary for a price that high. Unless it's a console the size of a desk I personally think it's way too high. I've seen the same thing though - Commie MIDI interface that went for $200 15 yrs ago priced at $500 in the music shops, in fair to beat condition. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From engine at chac.org Wed May 13 10:43:53 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: <3559BA58.E71F15AF@bbtel.com> References: <19980513093243.1a772468.in@insidermarketing.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980513084353.00fa5100@pop.batnet.com> At 10:20 5/13/98 -0500, Russ wrote: >....I don't see >anyone paying up to $15000 for a 1977 Apple computer of any model. I have personally watched three Apple Ones sell for, respectively, $12,000, $15,500, and $22,000. The high one was at the Computer Bowl a couple of years ago, the other two were private collectors, and none was ours (the one at Fry's). __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From mor at crl.com Wed May 13 09:53:36 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity References: Message-ID: <3559B3F0.60CBE68A@crl.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 12 May 1998, The Adept wrote: > > > I almost choked on my Leinenkugel's when I saw the current bid on the > > following: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13839197 > > > > I'll save the surprise for you who want to check it out (it's a > > Commodore Educator 64) > > Holy Crap! I should just sell my damn collection at the prices some of > these goons are paying. I could pay off all my bills AND put in that pool > I've always wanted, plus put a down payment on the Viper. Yeah, it seems like that to me too sometimes. But then I do some quick math involving original list prices of some of the stuff I've got and after I get over about a hundred thousand dollars, I stop and just consider myself lucky to have gotten it all so cheaply... -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From lgroebe at insidermarketing.com Wed May 13 10:53:03 1998 From: lgroebe at insidermarketing.com (Larry Groebe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity Message-ID: <19980513104734.1abba969.in@insidermarketing.com> >At 10:20 5/13/98 -0500, Russ wrote: >>....I don't see >>anyone paying up to $15000 for a 1977 Apple computer of any model. > >I have personally watched three Apple Ones sell for, respectively, $12,000, >$15,500, and $22,000. The high one was at the Computer Bowl a couple of >years ago, the other two were private collectors, and none was ours (the >one at Fry's). > >__________________________________________ >Kip Crosby engine@chac.org > http://www.chac.org/index.html >Computer History Association of California > and there's a hint that one sold for $50K in the Apple docs online at http://www.grin.net/~cturley/USA2WUG/FOUNDING.MEMBERS/HOME.PAGES/STEVE.W/A1 /The%20Index.Page.html can anyone confirm this price? From g at kurico.com Wed May 13 10:57:48 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: list archives? Message-ID: Hi, I just joined this list a couple of weeks ago and it is great. Lot's of great information. I have two quick list related questions. First, is this list being archived somewhere. Just in the two weeks I've been on, it's obvious that there is a huge amount of informational wealth being disseminated. And as any collector of older computers knows, information is the most essential element of collecting (that and software on the proper media). Second, does anyone know of any other lists that focus specifically on collecting? TIA George From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed May 13 11:06:26 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) Message-ID: <006401bd7e89$268658c0$746fbcc1@hotze> >Elementary school, how to learn. (language, reading, arithmetic) Yes, but computers are an important part of that. They need to know how to use them at an early age; even if it's not in school. >Intermeadiate school, how to find answers to questions and communicate >them. I say this goes to Elementary. In Jr. High, where I am now, most people are either lazy, "special-need" or both. On top of that, they've got SEVERE hormonal problems... it's important to know that you can't count on anyone to learn anything in perticular, except for stuff pertaining to... anyway, I think that here's a good time to give students a choice to know what they're going to do. I, for instance, want to specilize in Computers. Spending time learning "Pre-Algebra" (Just spent 2 class periods making a protractor accurate to 90' from a piece of paper.) isn't helpful, at least not that much, espcecially when I could cover the entire book in a week or two. (But my math teacher wants it "BIGGER, BETTER, NICER, NEATER." And I was done in 5 mins. out of 100!!!!) >High school, take the first two to the next levels and add skills needed >to find paying work. I say that some students should be given the oppertunity to do this in Jr. High. Not everyone, but some people. After all, by this time, you know if you're not going to be a chemist, programmer, or anything. >Computers are a part of life and M$ stuff is unfortunatly reality we live >with every day. The unfortunate part is I meet kids at the grocer that >play doom, surf the net and can't count change. Ease of use. It happens. ;-) But seriously, the math program here doesn't EVER cover basic math, just expects you to learn it. Now, I was fortunate, and learned how to do that before moving here. >Allison -Tim D. Hotze From CHUCK92124 at aol.com Wed May 13 11:20:35 1998 From: CHUCK92124 at aol.com (CHUCK92124) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: rt-11 programming Message-ID: <8488ed31.3559c855@aol.com> i am looking for an RT-11 guru to modify some software for a PDP-11 system running RT-11 V4 year 2000 problem please call chuck@ 619-292-0911 From mor at crl.com Wed May 13 10:37:07 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) References: <199805131358.AA02823@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3559BE23.5A48F7E7@crl.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > Computers are a part of life and M$ stuff is unfortunatly reality we live > with every day. The unfortunate part is I meet kids at the grocer that > play doom, surf the net and can't count change. Well, the clerk behind the counter may not be able to either, as the machine does all the work for them ;) I remember those machines that spit out the coinage part of your change appearing back in the late-60's. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From aaron at wfi-inc.com Wed May 13 12:49:36 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS In-Reply-To: <3559968E.7FF99E1B@bbtel.com> Message-ID: Hmmmm....7th grade. I got my Atari 800xl in seventh grade. Not a single computer in my school, and that was even in a rather large city (Pasadena). We found a lot of other things to occupy us, though, like finding creative ways to get over (and under) the 8 foot chain-link fence around the school and over to taco bell or the Pac Man arcade. I spent all of my "home" time drinking Tang, programming my Ataris, and listening to Black Sabbath. Funny thing is I got all A's and B's in my classes, with an attendance ratio of about 2/3 and a homework ratio of about 1/4. Does that say anything about the quality of California's public education? I can only imagine that it's even better now.... Aaron On Wed, 13 May 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > > Hotze wrote: > > > > > > I am. In 7th grade. Still think that jr. high school's a COMPLETE waste of > > > time, especially for geeks (or people like me, who like to consider > > > themselves geeks, but probably couldn't make it...), at our school. No > > > UNIX, no programming, not even a 32 bit OS!!! (And that's even counting > > > Windows!!!!) All I really can do is do what I want in Computers... (but > > > with the software that they've got available, the most I can do is type a > > > word doc. instead of write an e-mail... TONS of freedom there...) > > > > Tim, when I was in the seventh grade, due to getting most of my _real_ > > education from the library at my own pace, I wasn't counting windows. > > There weren't enough of them. I simply kept working out new patterns > > for counting the holes in the acoustical ceilings, since the contractors > > had installed them unevenly and that killed _some_ of the time until the > > bell rang. > > When I was in 7th grade I was pondering what the newest Terrahawks and > Thunderbirds episode would be and what I was going to do if the Vietnam "conflict" > went on past when I graduated high school in 1974. The only "pooters" we had then > were some networked (if you can call it that) typing equipment and teletype > terminals in the business classes. > > High school has it's palce, just as college does. Of course if you look at the > high schools and many colleges now you'd have to wonder why they eeven bother > going to any classes other than home room for attendance check in. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Russ Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ UIN #1714857 > AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed May 13 12:02:46 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity Message-ID: <5e362af4.3559d238@aol.com> In a message dated 98-05-13 10:41:03 EDT, you write: << Actually, David Greelish (of "historically brewed" and the "classic computing society") is attempting just such an online price guide. His efforts so far can be seen on: http://members.aol.com/mtpro/ >> what a joke! i just webbed there not long ago and checked his price guide. an H89 for $400? wow, i got mine for free! a pcjr for $50? i cant even give one away! a trs80 model 1 for $200? yea, right! from his "prices" i could sell part of my collection for over $1500. the list is quite sparse though. what about my osi or my portable pc or mac512k with a hyperdrive or my tandy 102 or atari portfolio? i seldom take seriously anyone who attempts to put market prices on old computers. for some light reading and humour goto the above url and check for yourself. david From mor at crl.com Wed May 13 11:27:41 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity References: <19980513093243.1a772468.in@insidermarketing.com> <3559BA58.E71F15AF@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <3559C9FD.2FEE036B@crl.com> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Larry Groebe wrote: > > > Actually, David Greelish (of "historically brewed" and the "classic > > computing society") is attempting just such an online price guide. His > > efforts so far can be seen on: > > > > http://members.aol.com/mtpro/ > > I don't think he's done much research though as I've seen prices on the > auctions way more than some of his listings and some way under. A C=64 at > $20 is what they normally go for and I've seen $150 and more for one. Yes, > the condition, rarity ann accessories is a consideration. I don't see > anyone paying up to $15000 for a 1977 Apple computer of any model. A guy I know claims that an Apple I went for $25,000 at Christey's or some such place. Does anyone know if there's truth to that? Sounds pretty absurd to me, but I just don't know. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From dastar at wco.com Wed May 13 12:24:37 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: 3.5" Drive for Apple ??? In-Reply-To: <199805131303.IAA01566@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 May 1998, David Williams wrote: > UniDisk //c : ID Byte = 0 > Added 3.5" support > Increased ROM to 256K What ROM would this be? The Apple ][ basically had 16K of ROM not counting the 2K of ROM space that each peripheral card had. In the //c that would give it maybe another 10K for the different built in ports (serial, mouse, 3.5"...) > Some new serial port commands > Mini-assembler > New monitor commands > Built-in diagnostics > Improved interrupt handler & external drive startup Hmmm...cool. Didn't know some of that. > Memory Expansion //c : ID Byte = 3 > Added internal memory expansion connector > Change RAM ICs > Moved mouse from slot 4 to slot 7 > New version of Protocol Converter called SmartPort What is this SmartPort Protocol Converter? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From eengelmann at worldbank.org Wed May 13 12:31:09 1998 From: eengelmann at worldbank.org (Eric Engelmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Very interested in classic computer software Message-ID: <3559D8DD.7E03@worldbank.org> How do I find out more about your list or group? My business buys and sells old programming, database and OS software for PCs. ems@wdn.com From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed May 13 12:34:58 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS Message-ID: <007901bd7e95$77919b60$746fbcc1@hotze> >Hmmmm....7th grade. I got my Atari 800xl in seventh grade. Not a single I built my own computer in 7th grade. Of corse, that was a PC... >computer in my school, and that was even in a rather large city >(Pasadena). We found a lot of other things to occupy us, though, like >finding creative ways to get over (and under) the 8 foot chain-link fence >around the school and over to taco bell or the Pac Man arcade. I spent all Early 80's? My art teacher says that lots of high school students were depressed.... >of my "home" time drinking Tang, programming my Ataris, and listening to >Black Sabbath. Funny thing is I got all A's and B's in my classes, with an Same here. >attendance ratio of about 2/3 and a homework ratio of about 1/4. Does that I wish I could do that!!!! I spend around 1/3-1/6 of my time working, the rest talking. I wish that I could do that little homework!!! Honestly, homework's the worst thing. If it were just "go to school, come home live your life" it would be so cool!!! >say anything about the quality of California's public education? I can >only imagine that it's even better now.... Yep. Now, the thing is that with my science fair project, none of the judges understood what I was talking about (Linux Vs. Windows), so a rather stupid project (bacteria growing in hot water) won. Anyone else have problems like this in Science Fair(s)??? It was way to technical, even though it was scaled down A LOT. I couldn't say what I wanted to say so that these people could still understand it... >Aaron Tim D. Hotze From dastar at wco.com Wed May 13 12:38:22 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: <19980513093243.1a772468.in@insidermarketing.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 May 1998, Larry Groebe wrote: > >Perhaps Someone should make a web site with reports of classic > >system sale prices, in order to balance the tales of $500 PETs > >with $5 PETs. Like anything else, so many other factors must > >be considered: rarity, condition, history, etc. > > Actually, David Greelish (of "historically brewed" and the "classic > computing society") is attempting just such an online price guide. His > efforts so far can be seen on: > > http://members.aol.com/mtpro/ TRS-80 Model 1 at $200? I must have a goldmine. Commodore PET(?) at $300? Which PET? There were at least 6 variations. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed May 13 07:49:47 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: 3.5" Drive for Apple ??? In-Reply-To: References: <199805131303.IAA01566@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <199805131649.LAA01708@trailingedge.com> On 13 May 98 at 10:24, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 13 May 1998, David Williams wrote: > > > UniDisk //c : ID Byte = 0 > > Added 3.5" support > > Increased ROM to 256K > > What ROM would this be? The Apple ][ basically had 16K of ROM not > counting the 2K of ROM space that each peripheral card had. In the > //c that would give it maybe another 10K for the different built in > ports (serial, mouse, 3.5"...) Yes, that stuck me as odd too, that was a lot for what use to be only 16k. I'll have to go back and check the Apple //c Tech Ref at home, it says they upped the ROM from 128k to 256k. This is the hardback series of books Apple put out through Addison-Wesley. > > New version of Protocol Converter called SmartPort > > What is this SmartPort Protocol Converter? I'll have to check the exact details but from the quick glance the Protocol Converter had something to do with handling the mapping of ports/slots on the //c. The SmartPort was the same as the Protocol Converter just enhanced. If nobody else replies before I get home this evening, I'll check what they say about the ROMs and the Protocol Converter/SmartPort and let you know. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From wanderer at bos.nl Wed May 13 15:06:52 1998 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: ASR33 References: <9804138950.AA895091277@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3559FD5C.6AC2@bos.nl> Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > I'm pretty sure the teletype is a passive device and expects the other > > device to source the loop current. > > > > 5V should be enough for the transmitter loop (which is just switch > > contacts), but I doubt if it would be enough for the receiver loop (more > > like 12V or more here) > > I used a TTY ASR-33 as a printer for my PET years ago. My memory is > that if I left the receiver open circuit, i yammered away printing > nulls; if I shorted out the loop it didn't. I interfaced it using one > transistor - no power supply was necessary. > > +---------------------- > | > OUT b |/c > -------/\/\/\/---------| NPN TTY > |\e > PET | > -------------------------+---------------------- > GND > > Note: I never interfaced the TTY transmitter - not even for reading > paper tape (don't know why not) > > Philip. Well, I tried this out, and to my surprise it did indeed wor (that is, shorting the wires.) Now I just have to look in my box of odds and ends to find the parts to make this little interface. Thanks, Edward -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | zakkenvullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From mor at crl.com Wed May 13 12:13:08 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: HP85A Stuff Message-ID: <3559D4A4.7FBEA31E@crl.com> I spent a little more time on this guy and have finally gotten the tape drive to work--sorta. The rubbery roller in the center to the left of the head is seriously corroded away (as if some anti-rubber solvent or high heat came in contact with it) which makes it not work too well. Cleaning it up as best I could, and then doing multiple retries, getting frequent READ or SEARCH errors, have allowed me to store and retrieve some simple programs. I guess I'll be opening this up and trying to replace that. Now, questions: I have a ROM Drawer filled with six option ROMS like Assembler, Input/Output, Mass Storage, etc. First, how do I implement the physical link to the I/O devices? There are zero physical port connections on this box...(?) Second, how do I access the ROM code from the BASIC prompt? I'm sure there's a lot of tricky stuff involved, making the manuals indispensible, but since I don't have them, any quick tips would be appreciated. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From pjoules at enterprise.net Wed May 13 13:18:20 1998 From: pjoules at enterprise.net (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: PS/2 30 architecture Message-ID: <01bd7e9b$825e7120$104e53c2@MIS2.coleg-powys.ac.uk> I hope that this is marginally on topic - the technology is over 10 years old and it is about using an old machine even if the OS is brand new. I have a PS/2 Model 30 and am taking part in testing the ELKS port of Linux to the XT architecture. On the PS/2 ELKS cannot see any keystrokes, having booted OK. Does anyone (Tony?) have a techref for this machine and if so what is the difference between this and a 'normal' XT. I am thinking that perhaps the keyboard buffer may be at a different place in memory thus DOS, using the BIOS, can see it but we can't by looking directly at the hardware. TIA Pete From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed May 13 13:28:00 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: PLease ID CD-ROM unit Message-ID: <19980513182800.17945.qmail@hotmail.com> OK, the other chips are: Hitachi HD74LS32P 367AP 240P 164P MB74LS00 138 TI J549X SN74LS541N The card has a weird logo: A large S, progressively narrowing toward the top. Could someone tell me about the actual drive? >They're probably TTL buffers/address decoding logic. Can you post the >numbers (which probably start 74LS) and we'll try to identify them and >guess likely functions. > >My guess is that this is some kind of custom parallel interface. Put the >8255 into Mode 2 and you've got a bidirectional data path on port A and >control lines on the other 2 ports. That's the most likely setup >(although it might be something totally different, like using one port >for input and another for output). > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed May 13 13:44:08 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific (yes again) In-Reply-To: <3559D8DD.7E03@worldbank.org> Message-ID: Over the years I had my eye out looking to aquire Ohio Scientific Challengers. I've been lucky enough to get a C2-4p and the late edition C4 but have been puzzled by not finding any of the 8P's (old/blue or newer/white) machines. Anyone seen an 8P in the last year or so? George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com From dastar at wco.com Wed May 13 13:50:46 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:51 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: <5e362af4.3559d238@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 May 1998, SUPRDAVE wrote: > what a joke! i just webbed there not long ago and checked his price guide. an > H89 for $400? wow, i got mine for free! a pcjr for $50? i cant even give one > away! a trs80 model 1 for $200? yea, right! from his "prices" i could sell > part of my collection for over $1500. the list is quite sparse though. what > about my osi or my portable pc or mac512k with a hyperdrive or my tandy 102 or > atari portfolio? i seldom take seriously anyone who attempts to put market > prices on old computers. for some light reading and humour goto the above url > and check for yourself. Allow me to provide a reality check. I'm assuming the following is just the computer (IE. no monitor or peripherals where applicable) MTPRO Closer to Reality Apple ][+: $50 $10-$15 Apple ][e: $80 $15-$20 Commodore Vic-20: $30 $5-$10 (many of these were produced) Commodore 64: $20 $5-$10 (ditto X 100) TRS-80 model II: $200 Don't have good guess but $200 way too high TRS-80 model III: $120 $15-$25 (many made) TRS-80 model IV: $120 (ditto) Compaq Portable: $100 Pfeh. $15 Atari 800: $30 $5-$15 TI 99/4a: $30 Ugh. Try Free-$5 (99/4a's and VIC-20's were used as foot soldiers in the price war between TI and Commodore in the early 80s...tons made) IBM PC model 5150: $100 Please. Hundreds of thousands made. Free. Macintosh 128K: $200 $50-$100. Not that hard to find. Amiga 1000: $100 $25-$35 Sinclair ZX81: $60 $5 Timex/Sinclair 1000: $50 ZX81 and TS-1000 are the same thing basically. IBM PCjr: $50 $15-$20 with monitor Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From dastar at wco.com Wed May 13 13:51:19 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: <3559BA58.E71F15AF@bbtel.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 May 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > I don't think he's done much research though as I've seen prices on the > auctions way more than some of his listings and some way under. A C=64 at > $20 is what they normally go for and I've seen $150 and more for one. Yes, > the condition, rarity ann accessories is a consideration. I don't see > anyone paying up to $15000 for a 1977 Apple computer of any model. Our Unless you're talking about an Apple 1. $15,000 is not an unreasonable price from a demand standpoint. There were only 200 produced and 200,000 people want one. > local grade school just dumped 25 of the original Apple II's for $100 for > all of them with the printers, software and drives. They've had them since > they were new under the "donation" system that Apple had for schools back > then. The person that boght them (not me) sold them for $25 a set and sold > them all in less than a week to people in this an surrounding counties - > people that are anything from collectors to users. That was a lucky person. In my estimation straight Apple ]['s are getting hard to find. I searched for 3 months last year and could only come up with 1. Of course this will all change when they start going for $1000 on eBay, and the 50,000 people who bought Apple ]['s back in 1977 catch wind of this and start emptying out their closets. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 13 13:55:01 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: <5e362af4.3559d238@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980513135501.00bd7e20@pc> At 01:02 PM 5/13/98 EDT, you wrote: > >what a joke! i just webbed there not long ago and checked his price guide. an >H89 for $400? wow, i got mine for free! I'll take a stab at this on my web page. Anyone who can summarize a system in a paragraph in terms of their impression of its rarity, condition, history, add-ons or completeness, sale date and price, just send me a private e-mail. I'll categorize them and post the results. Under construction, as they say... perhaps this will evolve. Frankly, I think it would be interesting to hear anecdotal evidence of prices. I'd also find it interesting to know what this "John Keyes Jr." fellow is going to do with his "haul of the week." :-) - John Jefferson Computer Museum From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed May 13 14:08:22 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: terminal keyboards needed Message-ID: <3559EFA6.91F457F4@bbtel.com> I just shipped the VT 100 and VT 220 that I had without keyboards. I gave them away for the shipping and a few people in the list had told me that they have extra keyboards for sale/trade/free (I don't remember) but the newe owner in New Hamster is looking for a keyboard for each one and if those people that have them could write me back (direct email) I can relay the message to him. Thanks guys and gals. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed May 13 14:09:11 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: terminal keyboards needed In-Reply-To: <3559EFA6.91F457F4@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <13355397426.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [The newe owner in New Hamster is looking...] Bwa hahaha ha! I like that! ------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed May 13 14:17:39 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) References: <199805131358.AA02823@world.std.com> <3559BE23.5A48F7E7@crl.com> Message-ID: <3559F1D3.6245AD1A@bbtel.com> Greg Troutman wrote: > Allison J Parent wrote: > > > Computers are a part of life and M$ stuff is unfortunatly reality we live > > with every day. The unfortunate part is I meet kids at the grocer that > > play doom, surf the net and can't count change. > > Well, the clerk behind the counter may not be able to either, as the > machine does all the work for them ;) I remember those machines that > spit out the coinage part of your change appearing back in the > late-60's. And it's not the technology thaqt makes them that way either - it's the trade off of using the machine to actually do the mental work instead of knowing how by hand first and then using the technology to enhance and speed up the knowledge. My buddy pulled his daughter out of the local public school over a dispute of using calculators in FIRST grade when the kids didn't even know how to do most of the work in their heads or longhand. He put her into a Catholic school here and she can use the calculator AFTER she's good enough with the actual math by herself. Remember when the LED HP calculators were banned from high schools and considered cheating? My best friend was suspended over just the possession of one in school, not even in class. Of course he's a few years younger than I as I don't remember calculators being much less than the price of a good used car when I was in school. They came down dramatically in 76 when I was going through electronics training. I think the one I had cost $105 then and we thought that was cheap. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed May 13 14:20:32 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity References: <19980513093243.1a772468.in@insidermarketing.com> <3559BA58.E71F15AF@bbtel.com> <3559C9FD.2FEE036B@crl.com> Message-ID: <3559F27F.DC47B342@bbtel.com> Greg Troutman wrote: > > I don't think he's done much research though as I've seen prices on the > > auctions way more than some of his listings and some way under. A C=64 at > > $20 is what they normally go for and I've seen $150 and more for one. Yes, > > the condition, rarity ann accessories is a consideration. I don't see > > anyone paying up to $15000 for a 1977 Apple computer of any model. > > A guy I know claims that an Apple I went for $25,000 at Christey's or > some such place. Does anyone know if there's truth to that? Sounds > pretty absurd to me, but I just don't know. Where are these people when you have stuff to sell at $25 and they are willing to pay $25000 for the same thing? No instead you get the ones that tell you what a junkpile they are and try to knock you down to $5.....I can see the thrift stores having prices like this since everything they have is donated and they neither test anything, know what it even is, nor want it around very long. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sethm at loomcom.com Wed May 13 14:33:18 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Stuff to trade for PDP! Message-ID: <199805131933.MAA31514@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2042 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/08d491c0/attachment.ksh From cfandt at servtech.com Wed May 13 14:31:37 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) In-Reply-To: <006401bd7e89$268658c0$746fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <199805131937.TAA01191@cyber2.servtech.com> At 19:06 13-05-98 +0300, you wrote: >>Elementary school, how to learn. (language, reading, arithmetic) > > >Yes, but computers are an important part of that. They need to know how to >use them at an early age; even if it's not in school. They are used as a tool to show the student the short and/or easy way to an answer. Not enough real thinking and problem solving being taught as a result. >>Intermeadiate school, how to find answers to questions and communicate >>them. > > >I say this goes to Elementary. In Jr. High, where I am now, most people are >either lazy, "special-need" or both. On top of that, they've got SEVERE >hormonal problems... it's important to know that you can't count on anyone >to learn anything in perticular, except for stuff pertaining to... anyway, I >think that here's a good time to give students a choice to know what they're >going to do. I, for instance, want to specilize in Computers. Spending That's right! I completely agree this is a good place to start helping a student to try to figure just what he/she will do as a career. I *really* wish I had been encouraged to keep on with advanced learning when in 3rd-4th-5th grades as that was when I recall being especially enthused about technology (this was 1962-65 during the beginnings of the US Space program which I gleaned *all* info possible from the news media). I was, IIRC, discouraged from really getting into this in grade school because (probably) I was not learning the exact same things as the 29 other kids in the classroom were expected to and the teachers and administration were not prepared to handle a somewhat more advanced kid like I possibly was then. My future learning actually suffered a bit because of this. Tim, I see in you a some of the frustration that was in me when I was your age. >time learning "Pre-Algebra" (Just spent 2 class periods making a protractor >accurate to 90' from a piece of paper.) isn't helpful, at least not that >much, espcecially when I could cover the entire book in a week or two. (But >my math teacher wants it "BIGGER, BETTER, NICER, NEATER." And I was done in >5 mins. out of 100!!!!) >>High school, take the first two to the next levels and add skills needed >>to find paying work. > > >I say that some students should be given the oppertunity to do this in Jr. >High. Not everyone, but some people. After all, by this time, you know if >you're not going to be a chemist, programmer, or anything. The German educational system, in which the student is being encouraged toward a career beginning when he/she is around 10 years old, is something like this. Most of my engineering colleages at my company's German parent company began to turn toward engineering/technical programs at grades 5 through 8 or 9 under this system. Some of the wives, girlfriends/boyfriends that I know outside of the company also began their careers around the same time whether they were technical or non-technical. Later, in high school, the student works at one or two companies related to their career choice for ten or so weeks every couple of years. We've had a couple of students doing their 'practical' work at our US company. Sometimes the high school itself is geared toward a career. One of my pals over there went to what he calls a language high school. Still fluent in several languages even now and several other not so fluent languages he is one of the most creative and articulate software writers I know. He's even better in control systems hardware design. Later still, in college, the student does more practical, real-world work. I've sponsored getting a couple of German college students over to this company for their college 'practical' in cooperation with our parent company. Hardware design and software engineering were the areas we had them work in. The system is a bit more complicated than my oversimplification here, many variables to include, but I'm saying that it overall appears to be a better system for them and prepares the student to be ready for the job and rather mature in his/her emotions and thinking. Anyway, this is what I think I could have really benefited from here in the States beginning in grade shool if our educational system was geared toward that concept of "co-operative education". >>Computers are a part of life and M$ stuff is unfortunatly reality we live >>with every day. The unfortunate part is I meet kids at the grocer that >>play doom, surf the net and can't count change. Sadly, I have seen a few German kids who were about the same probably because the system is not perfect. However, they are much fewer than any of us see in the States. > > >Ease of use. It happens. ;-) But seriously, the math program here doesn't >EVER cover basic math, just expects you to learn it. Now, I was fortunate, >and learned how to do that before moving here. >>Allison > -Tim D. Hotze > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 13 14:40:13 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: HP85A Stuff In-Reply-To: <3559D4A4.7FBEA31E@crl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980513144013.4d077550@intellistar.net> Greg, I'm glad to hear there's someone else interested in the old HP-85s. I have four of them myself. I've repaired the feed rollers by removing them and cleaning the old goop off and then shrinking a piece of heat-shrink tubing onto the hub. You may have to experiment with the thickness. After you intall the ROMs, their functions are available in BASIC. You don't have to do anything to "link" them. I have books for all of them but there's a LOT of pages. Too many to copy. Look at "www.ebbsoft.com", he has brief descriptions of the BASIC commands posted there. I'm not sure if he has the ROM commands listed or not. E-mail me if you have more questions. Joe At 10:13 AM 5/13/98 -0700, you wrote: >I spent a little more time on this guy and have finally gotten the tape >drive to work--sorta. The rubbery roller in the center to the left of >the head is seriously corroded away (as if some anti-rubber solvent or >high heat came in contact with it) which makes it not work too well. >Cleaning it up as best I could, and then doing multiple retries, getting >frequent READ or SEARCH errors, have allowed me to store and retrieve >some simple programs. I guess I'll be opening this up and trying to >replace that. > >Now, questions: I have a ROM Drawer filled with six option ROMS like >Assembler, Input/Output, Mass Storage, etc. First, how do I implement >the physical link to the I/O devices? There are zero physical port >connections on this box...(?) Second, how do I access the ROM code from >the BASIC prompt? I'm sure there's a lot of tricky stuff involved, >making the manuals indispensible, but since I don't have them, any quick >tips would be appreciated. > >-- >mor@crl.com >http://www.crl.com/~mor/ > From yowza at yowza.com Wed May 13 14:41:43 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: <3559F27F.DC47B342@bbtel.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 May 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > A guy I know claims that an Apple I went for $25,000 at Christey's or > > some such place. Does anyone know if there's truth to that? Sounds > > pretty absurd to me, but I just don't know. > > Where are these people when you have stuff to sell at $25 and they are willing > to pay $25000 for the same thing? No instead you get the ones that tell you what > a junkpile they are and try to knock you down to $5.....I can see the thrift > stores having prices like this since everything they have is donated and they > neither test anything, know what it even is, nor want it around very > long. $25 for an Apple 1? I'll take two, please. Is it just my decaying neurons, or do I remember Woz himself paying big bucks for an Apple 1 (perhaps as part of a charity benefit)? -- Doug From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed May 13 15:43:59 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 13, 98 11:50:46 am Message-ID: <9805131943.AA23126@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1456 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/253be038/attachment.ksh From Chwolka at nt-gmbh.de Wed May 13 20:47:23 1998 From: Chwolka at nt-gmbh.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: OS/2 Warp 3 Help... (Yes, off topic...) References: <004b01bd7e70$6ec3bb00$746fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <355A4D2B.1593@nt-gmbh.de> Hotze wrote: > > OK... remember that Arthur J. Carp fellow... well, I got a copy of Warp 3... > 3.5" disks. (It's been a while...) Anyway, this is semi-on topic, as > OS/2's a pretty good story, and older versions are classic. > So here's the deal. I can get all the way to Disk 6, then I re-insert > the Install diskette. Then, it asks me to reboot. I reboot, and it's not > there. I also have Windows 95 on this system. So how do I: Get past that > 2) Get to see the drive's contents (it's not the same C as FAT 32 sees > it...) > Thanks, > > Tim D. Hotze Hi.. The OS/2 systempartition must be below the fist 2 Gigabytes.. all other partitions for that fancy OS may stay everywere.. It seend as if you install in a partition which goes ahead the first 2 GB on the hd. I use warp 3 connect. Warp 4 is slower... Greetings Fritz Chwolka / collecting old computers just for fun. +-----------------------------------------------------+ From william at ans.net Wed May 13 14:57:52 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: <9805131943.AA23126@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: > I am quite surprised that many of the systems listed are considered > by some to be "classics" already. Many of them I consider pure > unadulterated junk. To avoid offending others, though, I won't > mention these systems by name :-) Oh, c'mon. Be a man. Name names. At least the inevitable flame war would be fun. William Donzelli william@ans.net From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed May 13 16:09:00 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 13, 98 03:57:52 pm Message-ID: <9805132009.AA20163@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1157 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/c10a4a7f/attachment.ksh From rexstout at uswest.net Wed May 13 15:51:52 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: 3.5" Drive for Apple ??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I don't think the drive can be intended for the Mac, though, because it's >got a MECHANICAL eject mechanism. In fact I was able to eject that Mac >disk (write protected, thankfully ;) ) and the Mac didn't notice. There were severl third-party 800k external drives for the Macintosh, this drive sounds like one of them. Try going through old Mac magazines(really old MacUser or MacWorld), I've seen a lot of interesting things in older ads... Great way to make up a new wish list ;-) >Is there something I need to do to get my //c to recognize the drive? Or >is it intended for use on a //gs? Using it with a IIc is unlikely, and you would have to try it on a IIgs to find out, but AFAIK, very few drives that work on a Mac will also work on a IIgs... -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From donm at cts.com Wed May 13 16:21:23 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: More Kaypro problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I checked fuse on the back panel and it's OK. Is there a fuse on the P/S > > > board located on the inside of the back panel? > > > > Yes, there is. It is in a clip on the board. > > I've never seen one of these PSUs, so I'm guessing here, but I've > repaired enough SMPSUs in the past to give you some useful tips (it _is_ > an SMPSU I take it, and not a linear...) One other thing that he might check providing the fuse is alright is the soldering on the header connector pins. Remove the long connector from the power supply and gently try to wiggle each individual header pin on the board. If one does wiggle appreciably, it will be necessary to remove the power supply - 4 screws - and resolder the pins on the back side of the board. I have only seen a few instances of this, but it does happen on occasion. - don > Remove the fuse and inspect it. You'll see one of there things : > > 1) The fuse is blown gently - the wire has melted, but it't not at is (2) > below. In that case, replace the fuse and try again > > 2) The fuse has blown violently. Either the glass has cracked, or the > inside of the fuse is coated in a black metal film. In that case there's > a short circuit somewhere on the primary side. Likely _first_ failures > are the mains bridge rectifier diodes or the chopper transistor. Alas > there are normally other failures (resistors/capacitors) along with them, > and unless you replace everything, your new parts will be damaged as well. > > 3) The fuse is fine, but the PSU won't start up. This is suprisingly > common (I've had it twice in the last month). Most small SMPSUs run the > control circuitry off one of the transformer outputs, which leads to a > bootstrap problem (the PSU can't run without the control circuit, but the > control circuit can't work without the PSU running). The solution is a > small circuit to give the control circuit enough power to start. In a lot > of cases this takes the form of a high-value resistor chain from the HT+ > (400V DC) line to the chopper control circuitry. And for some reason this > resistor open-circuits. It's worth checking all high-value resistors on > the primary side. > > When you've inspected the fuse, get back to us and we'll attempt to talk > you through the PSU... > > -tony > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From g at kurico.com Wed May 13 16:22:11 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Visual Computer Inc. Commuter US Message-ID: Anyone heard of such a beast. It's a rather large "laptop" with a scrunched lcd display. Has two half height 5 1/4 floppies. From the keyboard it looks like a pc clone, but it also has a db25 terminal out port on the back. TIA George From wp4wssam at coqui.net Wed May 13 15:30:24 1998 From: wp4wssam at coqui.net (ROBERT S. SAMBOLIN) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Everything about Apple /// Message-ID: <355A02E0.4508@coqui.net> If you need anything or need any information about Apple /// (SARA) the best place is Washington Apple Pi. They are a group dedicated to all apple and mac hardware and software. Mr. Dave Ottalini is the historian and librarian for the apple ///. To get help from him or any other person ap WAP, you need to join the club. From Marty at itgonline.com Wed May 13 17:00:45 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Visual Computer Inc. Commuter US Message-ID: <1998May13.175924.1767.103156@smtp.itgonline.com> I have such a beast, it is a Model 1083 (I believe). Unfortunately I don't have any other information on it. It's rather heavy for such a slim luggable. Perhaps it is better described as a lugtop? Laptop on steroids? Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Visual Computer Inc. Commuter US Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 5/13/98 5:33 PM Anyone heard of such a beast. It's a rather large "laptop" with a scrunched lc d display. Has two half height 5 1/4 floppies. From the keyboard it looks like a pc clone, but it also has a db25 terminal out port on the back. TIA George ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998May13.173305.1767.41575; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:33:05 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id OAA09395; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:30:45 -0700 Received: from mxu3.u.washington.edu (mxu3.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.7]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id OAA57722 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:24:01 -0700 Received: from smtp.kurico.com (smtp.kurico.com [38.247.97.200]) by mxu3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with SMTP id OAA00449 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:23:59 -0700 Received: from icurrie (unverified [209.36.177.59]) by smtp.kurico.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:59:56 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:22:11 -0500 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: "George Currie" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Visual Computer Inc. Commuter US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From donm at cts.com Wed May 13 16:58:36 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Help Needed: Kaypro 10 HDD Problems In-Reply-To: <3558F2E7.244E0D2F@escape.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 May 1998, Grant Zozman wrote: > Thanks for all the help so far :-) > > To address the questions people have asked: > > I have a program called FORMAT06.COM supplied on the original CP/M Autoload > disks for the Kaypro. It seems to do a high level format (similar to DOS's > FORMAT command). However when I run it, I get "Verify errors", so it does > not seem capable of overcoming the problems the drive has. Have you means (PC w/ 22DISK) of putting a file on Kaypro format disk? If so, I'll send a different Kaypro HD format program to you by e-mail. > I do have PUTSYS and PUTOVL, and have executed them. Interestingly enough, > they don't report any errors. However, as Don Maslin noted, these should > be run after the drive is formatted, so at this point I don't think these > utilities can solve my problem. In any case, I would suspect that if this > was the only problem, I would still be able to pull up a directory of the > hard drive (I can't); I just wouldn't be able to boot from it. > > Some have mentioned that the Tandon drive I have is not original, and that > I should look for a Seagate (ST225 has been recommended), Shugart, or > Microscience drive. Would I be able to use any 10MB MFM drive in place of > the Tandon TM502? I am wondering specifically about physical size, Yes, you can use abother 10mb drive PROVIDING that it has 4 heads. The format program is rather inflexible about that. If only two heads, you will get only 5mb out of it, or if more than 4 heads and, say, 163 cylinders, you also will not get 10mb. > location of mounting screws, and the connectors used. If someone has a Those should be standard. > good working drive (or knows where one can be sourced), please let me know. > I am willing to pay a fair price for one. I can format and send you a 20mb NEC D5126 drive (ST-225 clone). E-mail me if you are interested. > Bill and Allison, you mentioned that I might attempt a low level format. > Barring physical damage on the disk, this sounds like the most likely > cause of my problems; maybe the heads got bumped slightly out of alignment > in shipping, and therefore cannot find the servo tracks any longer. I The drive has no servo tracks. The stepper motor determines track location. > would like to try a low level format, but am not sure what the utility > would be called. I have searched all the CP/M disks I have, and have > turned up no programs which would indicate that they do a low level format. The CP/M format combines both low level and high level in a single operation. > Would this utility have been supplied with CP/M? None of the books I have > on CP/M mention anything about low level formatting (although most of them > are too old to cover hard drives!). Any ideas on where I can find > this utility would be welcome! If someone has a copy on a floppy, I would > be more than willing to pay a fair price for your efforts to get a copy to me. - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From fmc at reanimators.org Wed May 13 16:59:28 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: HP85A Stuff In-Reply-To: Greg Troutman's message of Wed, 13 May 1998 10:13:08 -0700 References: <3559D4A4.7FBEA31E@crl.com> Message-ID: <199805132159.OAA29769@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Greg Troutman wrote: > I spent a little more time on this guy and have finally gotten the tape > drive to work--sorta. The rubbery roller in the center to the left of > the head is seriously corroded away (as if some anti-rubber solvent or > high heat came in contact with it) which makes it not work too well. The rubbery bits used on these drives seem to be going gooey, at least out here in the San Francisco Bay Area. It's also happening to the similar drives used in HP264x terminals. (Gotta get around to fixing that one on my desk....) > Now, questions: I have a ROM Drawer filled with six option ROMS like > Assembler, Input/Output, Mass Storage, etc. First, how do I implement > the physical link to the I/O devices? You need an I/O card of the appropriate type to plug into another one of those slots on back. HP-IB is fairly common and is what you would use to hook up disk drives. -Frank McConnell From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Wed May 13 17:32:48 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: terminal keyboards needed In-Reply-To: <3559EFA6.91F457F4@bbtel.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at May 13, 98 02:08:22 pm Message-ID: <199805132232.SAA09031@shell.monmouth.com> > > I just shipped the VT 100 and VT 220 that I had without keyboards. I > gave them away for the shipping and a few people in the list had told me > that they have extra keyboards for sale/trade/free (I don't remember) > but the newe owner in New Hamster is looking for a keyboard for each one > and if those people that have them could write me back (direct email) I > can relay the message to him. > > Thanks guys and gals. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- In case anyone else on the list is watching it's cleaning time here. Got both the VT100 keyboard and a VT220 keyboard (I believe I've got a couple of both... I know I've got about three of the VT220's and at least a couple of the VT100's. I also have a VT300 (working -- I think) and a couple of VT100's I'd part with for a couple of bucks. I also have a Panasonic Senior Partner (Compaq clone with built in thermal printer), an XT 8mhz clone with EGA and EGA Monitor and some various boards including 8 bit WD ethernet... Bill ex-DEC Field Service and VT100 fixer From dastar at wco.com Wed May 13 18:02:12 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: <9805132009.AA20163@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 May 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Oh, OK: The ZX81. Yeah, it's cute, but it's such complete cheap > plastic junk so through-and-through. I will give Clive Sinclair > points for packaging ingenuity, though he can't hold a candle > to HP or Tektronix in packaging with an intention to enhance long-term > usability and maintainability. The HP9100B is an absolutely beautiful > job of packaging and integration; many of the Tektronix portable > tube scopes are the same. I think the ZX81 was intended to be affordable, and many people owe their start in computers to Mr. Sinclair for producing a computer that could be bought on a limited budget. > Besides, how can he value the ZX81 at $75 when original kits are > available for less money? He can't, unless he's a moron. I hate to have to use such strong words to describe the guy...ok, no I don't. His attempts at placing "values" on these not so rare, and in many cases, very common machines is absurd. He needs to get out more often (and in a major metropolitan area, not the backwater he seems to base his scarcity judgements on) and get a feel for the real market of old computers, rather than just going by the bloated prices that the online auctions produce. > The best transaction I ever made was when I traded the ZX80 off for > a Model 33 ASR - complete with two boxes full of unpunched tape and > several cartons filled with rolls of canary paper. Well, if you're going for rarity points, I've seen less ZX80s than I have ASR33s, for what its worth. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From dastar at wco.com Wed May 13 18:09:50 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Everything about Apple /// In-Reply-To: <355A02E0.4508@coqui.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 May 1998, ROBERT S. SAMBOLIN wrote: > If you need anything or need any information about Apple /// (SARA) > the best place is Washington Apple Pi. They are a group dedicated to all > apple and mac hardware and software. Mr. Dave Ottalini is the historian > and librarian for the apple ///. To get help from him or any other > person ap WAP, you need to join the club. Thanks! We'll jump right over the the web pa....oh, you didn't post one. Ok then we'll just call the phone numbe...oops, you didn't give us that either. Ok, well I guess we'll just have to do it the hard way and write a letter to...hmmm, no physical address. Ok, I'll just remain ignorant about my Apple /// I guess. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From rector at usa.net Wed May 13 18:22:42 1998 From: rector at usa.net (Daniel E. Rector) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: OS/2 Warp 3 Help... (Yes, off topic...) References: <004b01bd7e70$6ec3bb00$746fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <355A2B42.4DEF@usa.net> > So here's the deal. I can get all the way to Disk 6, then I re-insert > the Install diskette. Then, it asks me to reboot. I reboot, and it's not > there. I also have Windows 95 on this system. So how do I: Get past that > 2) Get to see the drive's contents (it's not the same C as FAT 32 sees > it...) Tim, It's not clear if you are using 2 partions (I assume you are by your last statement). OS/2 can be installed on either a primary OR extended partition, however it cannot see FAT 32. When installing it, it should have taken you to fdisk (OS/2 version) where you would have set your partition as installable. (You should not have progressed past the first two disks at this point.) Also assuming you've formatted the partition with either FAT 16 or HPFS. Are you planning to use Boot Manager? - it lets you choose which partition you want to boot from. otherwise you would probably have to invoke FDISK to set the other primary partition active and then reboot. If this is not clear, let me know offline, and I'll try to walk you through it. I have a PS/2 mod 60-486 with OS/2 3.0, WIN95, and Windows 3.1 all bootable - so it can be done. -- Daniel E. Rector Software Product Developer Lakeview Technology email: rector@usa.net phone: (507)285-4085 (work) (507)289-8940 (home) From kyrrin at jps.net Wed May 13 18:46:53 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: FW: VAX 6560 available at Rice University. In-Reply-To: <3559E353.EC8AE818@pop.ruf.rice.edu> References: <3559E353.EC8AE818@pop.ruf.rice.edu> Message-ID: <355c30a9.867663393@smtp.wa.jps.net> Anyone interested, please contact Mr. Lin directly. -=-=- -=-=- On Wed, 13 May 1998 13:15:47 -0500, in comp.os.vms you wrote: >>From: Chihfang Lin >>Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >>Subject: VAX 6560 for Sale >>Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:15:47 -0500 >>Organization: Rice University, Houston, Texas >>Lines: 15 >>Message-ID: <3559E353.EC8AE818@pop.ruf.rice.edu> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: admsys-21.rice.edu >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) >>CC: chihfang@rice.edu, prscott@rice.edu >>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news.burgoyne.com!news.eecs.umich.edu!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news.mv.net!newspump.wustl.edu!rice!not-for-mail >> >>Greetings: >> >>My department has put a surplus VAX 6560 / w SF200 for sale on Rice's >>Greetsheet. The individual bid period is from May 18 to noon of May 22. >>If you are interested, please check "http://dacnet.rice.edu/~gs/" or >>call me for details. >> >>Thanks, >> >>Chihfang Lin >>Sr. Systems Administrator >>Administrative Systems, Rice University >>(713) 285-5967 chihfang@rice.edu >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin {at} j

s d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From kyrrin at jps.net Wed May 13 18:50:09 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: FW: DECStation 2100 help needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <355d3173.867865865@smtp.wa.jps.net> Found this on Usenet. Can anyone help out? If so, please respond directly to the author of the message. Thanks. -=-=- -=-=- On Wed, 13 May 98 15:22:55 CST, in comp.unix.ultrix you wrote: >>From: Mike.Hoff@CRHA-Health.Ab.Ca (Mike Hoff) >>Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix >>Subject: Old DECstation >>Date: Wed, 13 May 98 15:22:55 CST >>Organization: Unorganized. >>Lines: 10 >>Distribution: world >>Message-ID: >>NNTP-Posting-Host: veena.cc.uregina.ca >>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!ais.net!newsfeed.wli.net!news.he.net!news.pagesat.net!decwrl!tribune.usask.ca!news.uregina.ca!@somewhere.com >> >> >>Sorry to bother you, but I'm not sure who to talk to (and Digital wasn't >>much help). I have an old Decstation 2100 dug out of the basement - is >>this worth anything? Any idea where this equipment could be taken for >>repairs and OS help? Any information you can give me would be >>appreciated. >> >>Please reply to Mike.Hoff@CRHA-Health.Ab.Ca directly as I do not have >>Usenet access from my office. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin {at} j

s d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 13:44:42 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way? In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at May 12, 98 09:11:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 875 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/9c7f0986/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 13:46:53 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: ASR33 In-Reply-To: <35591127.DA7C8DBF@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at May 12, 98 11:19:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 560 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/6ede67a6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 14:16:59 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Grundy Newbrain Computer wont power up. In-Reply-To: <94E7F4E958A9D11196EE00805FE66F1E57A054@RLHS40EXC02> from "Keeble, Andy" at May 13, 98 10:51:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1515 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/3fab54aa/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 14:25:38 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: ASR33 In-Reply-To: <9804138950.AA895091277@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at May 13, 98 01:24:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1070 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/ce0769dc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 13:41:40 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION In-Reply-To: <19980513014338.23635.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at May 12, 98 06:43:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2363 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/a6a0b12d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 14:03:22 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: About the Wang '669 patent In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at May 13, 98 04:05:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 146 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/e957f35f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 14:41:49 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS In-Reply-To: <007901bd7e95$77919b60$746fbcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at May 13, 98 08:34:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 501 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/a576a2ef/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 14:06:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Another strange z-80 / CP/M box... In-Reply-To: from "Julian Richardson" at May 13, 98 10:45:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 810 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/93ca8755/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 13:59:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Kaypro problems In-Reply-To: <199805130339.WAA17042@ns.ezl.com> from "Cliff Boyer" at May 12, 98 10:39:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1307 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/a7f25f09/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 14:38:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: <5e362af4.3559d238@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE" at May 13, 98 01:02:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1227 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/ec40e55a/attachment.ksh From emu at ecubics.com Wed May 13 20:12:57 1998 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: RSX-11 Disk Images anyone? Message-ID: <19980514010042.AAA18898@1Cust240.tnt13.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi all, > The relevant documentation is "MSCP Basic Disk Functions Manual", > AA-L619A-TK, and "Storage System Diagnostics And Utility Protocol", > AA-L620A-TK, which in turn are parts of the UDA50 Programmer's > Documentation Kit (QP-905-GZ). My copy is version 1.2, April 1982. anyone has this documents here, and don't need it anymore ? thanks, emanuel From william at ans.net Wed May 13 20:03:51 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I think the ZX81 was intended to be affordable, and many people owe their > start in computers to Mr. Sinclair for producing a computer that could be > bought on a limited budget. Yes, but the instructions for the kit, amongst the worst ever written, are inexcusable! William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Wed May 13 20:25:35 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS References: <000301bd7e13$c6aac280$746fbcc1@hotze> <355916BD.9ADEAC55@cnct.com> <3559968E.7FF99E1B@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <355A480F.B8BB5F30@cnct.com> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > Tim, when I was in the seventh grade, due to getting most of my _real_ > > education from the library at my own pace, I wasn't counting windows. > > There weren't enough of them. I simply kept working out new patterns > > for counting the holes in the acoustical ceilings, since the contractors > > had installed them unevenly and that killed _some_ of the time until the > > bell rang. > > When I was in 7th grade I was pondering what the newest Terrahawks and > Thunderbirds episode would be and what I was going to do if the Vietnam "conflict" > went on past when I graduated high school in 1974. The only "pooters" we had then > were some networked (if you can call it that) typing equipment and teletype > terminals in the business classes. Tell me about it. Congress discontinued the draft in January 1973. I turned 18 that May. I wound up in the USAF anyway in time to be a "Vietnam Era Veteran" (as the Human Resources paperwork puts it) due to financial situation (call it starvation -- the USAF fed me). The only computers I heard of before I graduated HS were those that were used to process the tests taken with soft pencil and those that supposedly printed the report cards. The Altair was the next year, right about the time I enlisted (as I learned afterward). For some reason, I never had much use for puppet shows like the Thunderbirds -- my main love was the early anime like Astroboy, Gigantor and Eighth Man. And of course then and forever _real_ _printed_ science fiction by Heinlein and many others. (This is not off-topic, folks. My love of science fiction coinceded with my love of mathematics and got me into computers seriously with the TRS-80 that wasn't yet called the Model One after I was discharged from the USAF [honorably after four years, the 20th anniversary was last Friday May 8th -- coincidentally the 10th anniversary of the death of Robert A. Heinlein {who wrote about the most _likeable_ computer in all of science fiction, reality has a _long_ way to go}], and set out on the path that led me [collapsed and dumped me] here). > > High school has it's palce, just as college does. Of course if you look at the > high schools and many colleges now you'd have to wonder why they eeven bother > going to any classes other than home room for attendance check in. That's why I went. Since there were legal things that could be done to you (and/or your family) if you didn't show up. My real education taking place elsewhere, I went to check in and look at girls -- the fashions of the early Seventies being kind to a horny teenager. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed May 13 20:20:35 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: EduComp Rant (OT, Was: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980513121016.42e76d96@ricochet.net> At 06:43 PM 5/12/98 PDT, you wrote: >When was this thing with "computer literacy in schools is everything" >started? I like computers in schools, but I am tired of looking at >proposed plans to replace 5 MORE classrooms with computer labs. Is >this a classic thing? Would you in general say that computers have >affected education (keeping the discussion OnT, of course). Well, I'm shooting from the hip here, but I do have some experience in this area. The idea of "computer labs" comes from IMO two things: 1) The idea of teaching "computers" as a separate subject and 2) the inability for schools to afford computers for every classroom. Looking at these in turn, "computers" as a subject in itself *may* have been a valid concept *at one time* (i.e., with some of the machines we deal with) but now is no longer an issue. Kids today have very little problem with the concepts involved in running a program (it's the same as sticking in a nintendo cartridge) or using a mouse (aka joystick) etc. Certainly, programming is a separate issue, but not everyone needs to learn C or Java or even Basic, just as not everyone needs to learn how to rebuild a transmission or tune a piano. As for schools not being able to afford computers, well heck, they can't even afford pencils and paper. I kid you not. Every fall, I get woken up at 7am to be first in line at Target when the Crayons/folders/pencil boxes/pencils/scissors/etc. go on sale (every week, it seems -- ) so that my girlfriend can buy the supplies she wants for her classroom on sale *with her own money*. So, yes, most schools can't afford computers, in general, let alone enough for each classroom. So, what to do? Should they even bother? I think, based on Rachel's experiences, that the answer is a resounding *YES*, teachers should scrounge and steal and swindle as many computers as they can for their schools/classrooms. But not to teach "computers". They should be a tool, just like any other, to teach reading, math, science, comprehension, etc. And so I'll go against the grain and say it's more important in the lower grades (K-3 or so) to have computers available than in the upper grades. Upper grades, junior and high school especially, can do just as well with older machines as they can with the newer ones. PC-Write under DOS is an excellent solution for writing term papers or book reports, and will teach the concepts of word processing just as well as the latest version of MSWord. Qbasic, Cobol, and C/C++ for DOS are all just as good as their GUI counterparts for learning how to write a program; Once you understand the idea, switching to another language is a piece of cake. I write all my web pages in PC-Write (and I'm damn proud of some of them) and often use Arachne (DOS browser) to check them. Non-readers, however, can make better use of newer technology. Programs like the Playroom, Millie's Math House, and such really get the kids interested and having a good time; they don't realize (or care) that they're actually learning to read or count or what-have-you. This is the real value of computers in education. Mind you, older computers can be used here too, (the original version of the Playroom ran fine on a Mac Plus), but if you've got an old XT and a 486, give the upper grades the XT and the wee ones the 486. As to the craze for pushing computer literacy at the expense of general literacy, I think that older folks (30+) look at technology and how it was new to them, and how it is becoming so pervasive in our society, and they're scared. Scared that their kids will be as unprepared as they were. (What they don't understand, of course, is that that very pervasiveness will make kids take the technology in stride: My niece could work the VCR (play, ffwd, rwd, eject) at 1.5years; she's a wiz on the computer) Add to that the media and the politicians who love to play on the public's fears and work them into a frenzy to serve their own purposes and the corporate world who just want to sell more *stuff*... Computers have affected education, both for good and bad (like most anything.) They allow teachers to come up with fun worksheets that teach, quickly and easily; they can help kids that couldn't learn to read finally do it; they allow kids to work independantly at their own speed, allowing the teacher to work with the kids that need the most help. But, they also cause distractions, can be abused as babysitters by lesser teachers, and can displace funding and space for other, more needed supplies and equipment. Overall, the benefits of computers in the schools (as elsewhere, IMO) *FAR* outweigh the problems. Now the problem with older computers in the classrooms is not that they're not useful, it's that they're not adequately supported for the majority of non-computer-literate teachers. (Teachers know how to teach; they don't know how to do a low-level format on a CP/M hard drive.) So, all you folks on this list, who know what you're doing, call up your local schools and see if they have any [older] computers that they need help putting to use. > honest, the computer department here at the school is rather > pathetic, two Apple //e's and an XT that was donated that I > can't get to work. Apple //e's are fine for teaching BASIC programming and Word processing, and I know there are educational programs available for the younger kids, too. (Right Sam?) That XT should be repairable, and would make a great text-editing station or could be put to use in math classes running Lotus 1-2-3 or Excel. But, we've got a teacher who can't put them to use, but they don't have the skills/knowledge to do so. So, are there any collectors in/around Humble TX that can help out? P.S., I have my girlfriend working on a list of all the EduSoftware she has and what it's good at (and how good it is) to be put on a web page, so that someone who gets a computer for their classroom can see what software works and will run. (All her computers are Mac IIci or less (68030 or lower) (though we've got one IIci with an '040 board in it to go in, as soon as I get a chance to clean up the hard drive and such.)) >>> prejudiced on the side of reading over computers -- I only have >>> fifty-odd computers, I've got [half bought new] several thousand >>> books, mostly the science fiction I've loved since before the Well, I've only got about a 1000 books, and about 100 computers, but there's a lot more in the house (my folks had a whole wall of bookshelves put in when they bought the house). I too would say that if you can't read/write (communicate)/count, a computer's not going to do you much good in the long run -- it can't do that for you. (In fact, it will get you to do more of the above.) Anyway, sorry for the ultra-long rant... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed May 13 20:21:08 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980513131019.42e763fa@ricochet.net> At 11:59 PM 5/12/98 +0000, you wrote: >Apple and 8bitters of it's ilks that is found in K-12 has it's places >because these are what excels at teaching kids materials but in high >school level, we need to convert guys over to real things like >windows and 486 boxens, unix and like using word processing and >speadsheets, such yak yak..of most types not including 100% dumb M$ NONONONONONONONO!!! Word Processing and Spreadsheets, even 'net access can be taught just fine on 8-bit machines, or DOS-based PC's. The younger kids are the ones who can profit most from the non-textual interfaces that the newer machines can offer. To over-simplify: Older kids can read; they can learn to type commands. Younger kids can't read; they need pictures (icons). --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed May 13 20:21:12 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Interesting c64 usage Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980513132414.42e749c8@ricochet.net> At 07:41 AM 5/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >Did you ask if he added one too many zeros? Obviously the guy is heavy into >hallucenogenic drugs...The Commie itself is worth *maybe* $40 and the mixer is >worth maybe another $200 if your lucky. I have seen and done some things with >those obscure little breadboxes though that most people would never think >possible. Ummm... I don't dispute the commie value (perhaps a tad high?) but a 24-track (or was it 32?) 8-bus mixer with automation for $200? Tell me where -- I'll buy it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed May 13 20:21:16 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980513134339.42e73a36@ricochet.net> At 09:44 AM 5/13/98 -0400, you wrote: > > Personally, I believe the "computer literacy in schools is everything" > movement is a result of inept teachers and a haywire NEA. Here in the > Washington, D.C. area I have read reports of teachers pushing > 'invented' spelling as a method to avoid hurting the challenged > student's self esteem. Educators seem to think the student will Ummm... I don't doubt someone came up with this, but I doubt that it is widespread; If one teacher does it, the media pick it up and report it as if everyone was doing it, and of course the public loves to think that all teachers are idiots just goofing off until they can retire. I think it's jealousy over this (imaginary) summer vacation. Most teachers are extremely hard working, committed educators who put a lot of their own time and money into their classes. My girlfriend (admittedly, one of the most insane) arrives at school before 7am (everyday) and rarely leaves before 5pm. She spends her evenings and weekends doing schoolwork. She spends her summers planning the next year and building various curriculum. And she works with the other teachers all the time, so she's not alone. The problem is partially a lack of funding for schools and very a lack of adequate parenting. Rachel sent home some work for the kids to do with their parents one time; she got one back where the father had written (on both sides, in big, red letters) that his kid can't do such advanced work (they'd been doing it in class all week) and that "I AM NOT A TEACHER". With a father like that, it's a wonder that the kid knows how to go to the bathroom. There are other kids: one whose parents come to school at lunch time to take him to the bathroom and feed him his lunch (first grade, no kidding), and a kid who is almost completely blind, yet even after the social worker took him to the eye doctor (with her own money) still doesn't have glasses. Kids whose parents beat them, who are being raised by grandparents because their parents don't want them, kids who see people shot in real life, as well as on TV. And there are kids who are taught to hate because of skin color or religion, or whatever. Kids that are taught that the proper response to a disagreement is hit. Kids that are ignored at home, left on their own with a babysitter or nanny, or worse, to wander the neighborhood. Kids that are allowed, even encouraged, if it will shut them up, to watch stuff on telly that even *I* won't watch. Sure, there are bad teachers out there, just as there are bad mechanics, programmers, doctors, etc. But most of them work harder than probably anybody on this list, and probably for a lot less money. But parents don't even take responsibility for checking out the teachers. There are also different styles of teaching; you wouldn't drop your volvo off at a Land Rover mechanic, would you? But most parents don't bother to see (or ask) if a teacher's style is the best for their kids. Most parents pay more attention to whether or not their kids have brushed their teeth than whether or not they've done their homework. Don't put the blame on the teachers without putting it on the parents as well. > in software will correct them. What a cop out. I don't believe > students should be introduced to computers (read: word > processors/calculators) until the first year of high school after > mastering basic reading, comprehension, writing and math skills. Computers are a very valuable tool for teaching those very skills. To deny kids access to them is to slow them down. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed May 13 20:21:23 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980513142323.42e7b646@ricochet.net> At 07:06 PM 5/13/98 +0300, you wrote: >to learn anything in perticular, except for stuff pertaining to... anyway, I >think that here's a good time to give students a choice to know what they're >going to do. I, for instance, want to specilize in Computers. Spending >time learning "Pre-Algebra" (Just spent 2 class periods making a protractor >accurate to 90' from a piece of paper.) isn't helpful, at least not that Okay, so maybe you're a wiz in math/science, but you've got two misspellings in there (pArticular and speciAlize) so perhaps you should be concentrating on grammar/literature/etc? 8^) >>High school, take the first two to the next levels and add skills needed >>to find paying work. > >I say that some students should be given the oppertunity to do this in Jr. >High. Not everyone, but some people. After all, by this time, you know if >you're not going to be a chemist, programmer, or anything. Well, in Jr. High I was all set to be a private dick... er, detective. Early high school, I was ready to head for Harvard Law School. Late high school, the plan was U-Ill/Urbana-Champaign for under Grad Elect/Elect Engineering, then MIT for grad school. During college (SF City College) I was going to join the FBI. After dropping out of college, I wanted to be a synthesist, or maybe an inventor. Now, I want to be a politician. So when is it you know what you want to be when you grow up? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From gram at cnct.com Wed May 13 20:30:39 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS References: <003701bd7e20$254b7f80$746fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <355A493F.2C10C313@cnct.com> Hotze wrote: > > >Well aside from the fact that we're _all_ students whether or not > >we're matriculated somewhere -- Tim Hotze is around here someplace > >and I'm pretty sure he's not officially in college yet. > > Far from it, unfortunaetly. BTW, just for other students, or ex-students on > the list: Yesterday I had my science fair project: Linux Vs. Windows. Now, > I had two or three problems: 1) Couldn't seem to "dumb it down" enough to > get the judges to understand. > 2) Presentation wasn't really "flashy", more like a scientific paper. 3) > The paper was too "dumbed down" to actually say what I wanted it to say. I > couldn't do what I wanted to so that it would make sense to the judges. Get it on record and add it to your resume later. Judges of science fairs unfortunately have not changed in several (many?) decades -- they couldn't pour piss out of a boot with the instructions on the bottom of the heel. Admission judges at most of the better colleges aren't quite that stupid. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed May 13 20:36:40 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:52 2005 Subject: ASR33 References: Message-ID: <355A4AA8.BC37894E@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > your intent is to have the machine work _with_, not _against_ your > > Unix box. Because if you want it to work _against_ your Unix box, I > > On the grounds the original poster is from .nl and he speaks Enlish a lot > better than I speak Dutch (which I don't at all), I'm pretty sure that's > what he means. Language flames rarely get anywhere :-) > > > can provide wiring diagrams that are extremely user-unfriendly (while > > leaving the equipment intact for the heirs). > > Does one of these involve wiring 120V (or 240V) to the metal chassis/base > pan? :-) No, that puts the equipment at too much risk. A _serious_ step-up transformer between the keyboard and the chair. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed May 13 20:43:22 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity References: <199805130934.TAA24480@hobart.southcom.com.au> Message-ID: <355A4C3A.32DDBF26@cnct.com> desieh@southcom.com.au wrote: > yeah well a fool is born every 1 second dont they say? > or was it a fool and thier money soon part......... > man I could get that Cadilliac Ive always wanted if i sold my > collection...... I've always wondered about that old saying that "A fool and his money are soon parted". My question is how did the fool and his money get together in the first place? (Leaving out inheritance) -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed May 13 21:40:14 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 13, 98 09:03:51 pm Message-ID: <9805140140.AA15586@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 593 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980513/e4ddc2a2/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Wed May 13 20:44:09 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Ali Babas cave In-Reply-To: <35552AB6.706F@digiweb.com> Message-ID: In a desperate effort to get on topic, I dug this out of the pile... > I just spent Saturday morning in an Ali Babas cave of old computers > ranging form a huge 6ft tall by 10 ft wide analogue computer through a > few DEC machines (see below, and old ICT 1301, a Telefunken TR4 a > burroughs 1800, a few French minicomputers and quite a number of > unidentified systems. Included were lots of tape and disk drives, boxes > of documentationa nd software. Just a dream come true! French minicomputers...hmmm, those sound interesting. I rarely see French made electronics here - I would like to see how it compares to other things. What was the name of the manufacturer? > Among the DEC machines I saw was a complete PDP-9. How rare are these? You may never see one ever again! The 18-bit DEC machines were never a really big hit (they were odd ducks, mostly made for process control), and really did not survive well at all. I would venture to say that there are probably less than ten of the 18 bit machines in captivity today, and that includes PDP-1s, 7s, 9s, 9/Ls, and the various 15s. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed May 13 16:47:50 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980513131019.42e763fa@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199805140144.VAA23210@mail.cgocable.net> Snip! > >speadsheets, such yak yak..of most types not including 100% dumb M$ > > NONONONONONONONO!!! > > Word Processing and Spreadsheets, even 'net access can be taught just fine > on 8-bit machines, or DOS-based PC's. The younger kids are the ones who > can profit most from the non-textual interfaces that the newer machines can > offer. > > To over-simplify: Older kids can read; they can learn to type commands. > Younger kids can't read; they need pictures (icons). Point well taken. Thanks for reminding me about the younger guys and textural doesn't mix well. Jason D. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 20:11:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: <9805132009.AA20163@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at May 13, 98 01:09:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1781 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980514/96e2ad0d/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Wed May 13 20:50:40 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: <9805140140.AA15586@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: > It all depends on what you're comparing them to. Consider most PC-clone > "no-name" hardware, which often doesn't come with any manufacturers name, > much less any instructions! No, the Sinclair machine takes the cake. While building the critter, the instructions drifted between the three builds (for video - NTSC, PAL, or SECAM) _without_ telling you. The instruction book looked nice - almost like a Heathkit. They obviously put money and effort into it - just they had a moron write it up! > On the other hand, I spent many nights reading Heathkit construction > manuals for things I never owned - and learned a *lot*. Considering that before any new kit was released, it was tried out on an unsuspecting secretary until it was refined so a completely ignorant person could get the things working, that is no suprise. Does anyone have a Heath _analog_ computer? I never saw one, but they do exist. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Wed May 13 20:56:18 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity References: Message-ID: <355A4F42.AC67A451@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 13 May 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > local grade school just dumped 25 of the original Apple II's for $100 for > > all of them with the printers, software and drives. They've had them since > > they were new under the "donation" system that Apple had for schools back > > then. The person that boght them (not me) sold them for $25 a set and sold > > them all in less than a week to people in this an surrounding counties - > > people that are anything from collectors to users. > > That was a lucky person. In my estimation straight Apple ]['s are getting > hard to find. I searched for 3 months last year and could only come up > with 1. Of course this will all change when they start going for $1000 on > eBay, and the 50,000 people who bought Apple ]['s back in 1977 catch wind > of this and start emptying out their closets. Probably Apple //'s, not the original release -- Apple didn't start their big school giveaway program until 1981-2 as I recall. They did have good school discounts early on though. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 19:42:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: PS/2 30 architecture In-Reply-To: <01bd7e9b$825e7120$104e53c2@MIS2.coleg-powys.ac.uk> from "Pete Joules" at May 13, 98 07:18:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980514/84ae558d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 19:59:56 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 13, 98 11:50:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2185 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980514/bb2cbf5a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 13 19:45:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: PLease ID CD-ROM unit In-Reply-To: <19980513182800.17945.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at May 13, 98 11:28:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 501 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980514/7a5a471e/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Wed May 13 20:59:51 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity References: <9805131943.AA23126@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <355A5017.AF16D787@cnct.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > I am quite surprised that many of the systems listed are considered > by some to be "classics" already. Many of them I consider pure > unadulterated junk. To avoid offending others, though, I won't > mention these systems by name :-) Oh, give us a hint. Do they have ISA (or the earlier 8-bit "subset") buses? -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed May 13 21:07:18 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) References: <199805131358.AA02823@world.std.com> <3559BE23.5A48F7E7@crl.com> <3559F1D3.6245AD1A@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <355A51D6.7D9ED841@cnct.com> Russ Blakeman wrote: > Remember when the LED HP calculators were banned from high schools and > considered cheating? My best friend was suspended over just the possession of > one in school, not even in class. Of course he's a few years younger than I as > I don't remember calculators being much less than the price of a good used car > when I was in school. They came down dramatically in 76 when I was going > through electronics training. I think the one I had cost $105 then and we > thought that was cheap. I was forbidden to take my old Pickett out of its holster many times back in my early 70s high school days. Never understood what advantage it was supposed to give me in an EngLit test ... -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed May 13 21:16:53 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: About the Wang '669 patent References: Message-ID: <355A5415.EC2F4969@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > And as proof that collecting junky old computers has its perqs, Netscape > > That's about the worst pun I've ever seen on classiccmp ;-) Not intentional, I'm sure, since I don't think Doug collects that line (And the word is common US shorthand for "perquitite", though usually spelled "perk". But that _is_ how the best puns are made. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From jruschme at exit109.com Wed May 13 21:06:02 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: 3.5" Drive for Apple ??? References: Message-ID: <355A518A.B9FC6368@exit109.com> Doug Spence wrote: > > Greetings, > > Last week, along with a boxload of other stuff, I picked up an external > 3.5" floppy drive that apears to be intended for Apple machines. > > It's a DS800 from DataSpace Corporation. > > It physically plugs into my Apple //c, but I can't get the machine to > recognize it. The drive makes a noise when I power up the computer, but > that's all. Attempts to access S6, D2 or any other slot and drive > combination doesn't get anywhere. Not surprising... the only 3.5" drive that will work with a //c is the Unidisk (assuming you have a //c which will even work with one of those). > It DOES respond to my Mac 512K, though. I plugged it into that machine > and shoved a Mac-formatted disk in it, and an icon and open window popped > up. > > I don't think the drive can be intended for the Mac, though, because it's > got a MECHANICAL eject mechanism. In fact I was able to eject that Mac > disk (write protected, thankfully ;) ) and the Mac didn't notice. > > Is there something I need to do to get my //c to recognize the drive? Or > is it intended for use on a //gs? Or did this company make a line of > dangerous Mac peripherals in an attempt to give the platform a bad name > for an overabundance of disk corruptions? ;) //gs, definately. Specifically, this drive appears to be a clone of the Apple 3.5" Drive (yes, that's its name). The Apple drive could work on either the //gs or the Mac Plus, so this one is probably set up similarly. FYI, it will probably also work nicely on a Laser 128 or with the Laser Universal Disk Controller (UDC) card for the Apple //. <<>> From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed May 13 16:18:31 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: FW: VAX 6560 available at Rice University. In-Reply-To: <355c30a9.867663393@smtp.wa.jps.net> References: <3559E353.EC8AE818@pop.ruf.rice.edu> Message-ID: <199805140117.UAA02210@trailingedge.com> Wow, that's cool, I'm just around the corner from Rice. Of course I don't have the min. $3000 bid for the 6560 (or the space for it) but they have some other stuff I may bid on when individual bidding starts next week. Thanks for the tip. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge From whayes at snark.wizard.com Wed May 13 21:22:06 1998 From: whayes at snark.wizard.com (William H. Hayes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader /STUDENTS In-Reply-To: <199805130702.AAA02971@lists4.u.washington.edu> from "classiccmp@u.washington.edu" at "May 13, 98 00:02:04 am" Message-ID: <199805140222.TAA00379@snark.wizard.com> > Are there any students besides Derek on the list? > > I am a fourth year electrical engineering major here at > Oklahoma State. > > --Scott I'm a terminal student of the college of Hard Knocks.... Graduating when they pry my cold dead fingers from the keyboard. -- Bill #include +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | whayes@wizard.com | Powered by FreeBSD | finger for pgp public key. | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ Key fingerprint = 54 AC A0 8E F0 B6 94 6B 93 6B 34 D7 EB 13 78 BC From bwish at pcfa.org Wed May 13 21:26:38 1998 From: bwish at pcfa.org (Brett Wish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION In-Reply-To: <1998May13.094402.1767.102920@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: > > Personally, I believe the "computer literacy in schools is everything" > movement is a result of inept teachers and a haywire NEA. Amen! > students should be introduced to computers (read: word > processors/calculators) until the first year of high school after > mastering basic reading, comprehension, writing and math skills. The problem with introducing elementary and middle school kids to computers so early is that they either a) know more than the lab admin, or b) aren't allowed to use them in any constructive way. I'm only in the tenth grade, but I've already seen seven new labs installed in area schools. The school districts almost ALWAYS spend WAY too much on new computers, mainly from the worst vendors, only to have to replace them when the warranty runs out (with very little usage, BTW). The computers simply aren't used until high school, when word processing/database, programming, and other such courses are offered. Anything before is mainly a waste of money. What about the 'net? I don't understand why people think that the internet is such a great "tool" that will help schools. Just do a search for "barbie" on Yahoo. Or, for that matter, try "video" or something general. Especially considering that most schools don't use any Internet blocking software.. It takes most people a long time to get used to using search engines in such a way to get what they want. Most people in my school don't have any idea how to use the 'net, and could care less. That is the general attitude at most schools that I have been to. In other words, most of the money spent on computer equipment is a waste. From dlw at neosoft.com Wed May 13 16:45:20 1998 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: 3.5" Drive for Apple ??? In-Reply-To: References: <199805131303.IAA01566@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <199805140244.VAA13591@mailbox.neosoft.com> On 13 May 98 at 10:24, Sam Ismail wrote: > What ROM would this be? The Apple ][ basically had 16K of ROM not > counting the 2K of ROM space that each peripheral card had. In the > //c that would give it maybe another 10K for the different built in > ports (serial, mouse, 3.5"...) Ok Sam, I have the Apple //c Technical Reference Manual with me now. It has a complete source code listing of the final version of the //c Firmware ROM. The memory map shows the //c firmware occupied 32K. 16K listed as "Main side ROM" and another 16K as "Auxillary side ROM". Besides Applesoft and the monitor, they show UniDisk 3.5" routines (part of SmartPort), mouse handlers, Mouse BASIC routines, ACIA routines, diagnostic routines, the mini-assembler, extra monitor commands, firmware for all of the "built-in cards" and lots and lots of assembler utility routines and the SmartPort/Protocol Converter. It says later models had "a 256K ROM IC to replace the 128K ROM". I'd guess without further digging that the 32K of ROM on the memory map doesn't include all of the code. > What is this SmartPort Protocol Converter? From gram at cnct.com Wed May 13 21:57:37 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity References: Message-ID: <355A5DA1.99D812D@cnct.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > > I think the ZX81 was intended to be affordable, and many people owe their > > start in computers to Mr. Sinclair for producing a computer that could be > > bought on a limited budget. > > Yes, but the instructions for the kit, amongst the worst ever written, are > inexcusable! Come on now, Bill -- I assume you've read an Ashton-Tate dBase manual in your time. Or a Chrysler service manual. The Sinclair instructions were sufficient unto the day. Hell, consider the documentation IBM provided about their hardware to the "end user" in that era pre-PC (and the early PC docs weren't much to write home about). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed May 13 22:16:27 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) References: <3.0.16.19980513131019.42e763fa@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <355A620B.95718392@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 11:59 PM 5/12/98 +0000, you wrote: > >Apple and 8bitters of it's ilks that is found in K-12 has it's places > >because these are what excels at teaching kids materials but in high > >school level, we need to convert guys over to real things like > >windows and 486 boxens, unix and like using word processing and > >speadsheets, such yak yak..of most types not including 100% dumb M$ > > NONONONONONONONO!!! > > Word Processing and Spreadsheets, even 'net access can be taught just fine > on 8-bit machines, or DOS-based PC's. The younger kids are the ones who > can profit most from the non-textual interfaces that the newer machines can > offer. > > To over-simplify: Older kids can read; they can learn to type commands. > Younger kids can't read; they need pictures (icons). I taught myself to read before I was five. This has handicapped me ever since GUI systems arrived, since to me the hieroglyphs are _not_ intuitive -- give me words, not pictures. Admittedly I'm some kind of mutant since literacy isn't a big thing in my family. Give me a Korn (or Bourne) shell interface over the best Microsoft or Apple have to offer, I'll get the job done faster (and be able to explain the work) than anybody with a mouse. (Yes, I _do_ use X on my Linux systems, mostly so I can have five or six xterms on the screen). The only thing school did for me was to teach me to run, fleeing the bigger kids who thought I was smarter than they were and didn't want the "curve" ruined. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed May 13 22:23:17 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: About the Wang '669 patent References: <355A5415.EC2F4969@cnct.com> Message-ID: <355A63A5.D98B2E8B@cnct.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > line (And the word is common US shorthand for "perquitite", though That was supposed to be "perquisite". I hope to learn to type before my liver gives out (likely soon, based on genetics -- the liver, not the typing). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed May 13 22:45:37 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) Message-ID: <004301bd7eeb$e4a86f20$be67bcc1@hotze> >At 07:06 PM 5/13/98 +0300, you wrote: >>to learn anything in perticular, except for stuff pertaining to... anyway, I >>think that here's a good time to give students a choice to know what they're >>going to do. I, for instance, want to specilize in Computers. Spending >>time learning "Pre-Algebra" (Just spent 2 class periods making a protractor >>accurate to 90' from a piece of paper.) isn't helpful, at least not that > >Okay, so maybe you're a wiz in math/science, but you've got two >misspellings in there (pArticular and speciAlize) so perhaps you should be >concentrating on grammar/literature/etc? 8^) I'm not a wiz in math/science at all. That's the point. I'm not learning anything, and neither are the 14 or so people that I really know in the class. In a class where 2/3 isn't learning jack SHOULD tell the teacher something. >>>High school, take the first two to the next levels and add skills needed >>>to find paying work. >> >>I say that some students should be given the oppertunity to do this in Jr. >>High. Not everyone, but some people. After all, by this time, you know if >>you're not going to be a chemist, programmer, or anything. > >Well, in Jr. High I was all set to be a private dick... er, detective. >Early high school, I was ready to head for Harvard Law School. Late high >school, the plan was U-Ill/Urbana-Champaign for under Grad Elect/Elect >Engineering, then MIT for grad school. During college (SF City College) I >was going to join the FBI. After dropping out of college, I wanted to be a >synthesist, or maybe an inventor. Now, I want to be a politician. > >So when is it you know what you want to be when you grow up? Computers. Entrepreneur. I'll start my own company developing software. I'd start out with simple stuff, such as an e-mail client, and grow. Another good thing to do (at least now) is to start a web page/Virtual Community. That's changed a single time since Kindergarten, where I wanted to be an aeronautical engineer, seeing as how I had zip experience with computers. My idea's been the same for 5 years now. Tim D. Hotze From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Wed May 13 22:50:22 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Ali Babas cave References: Message-ID: <355A69FE.6C5@digiweb.com> William Donzelli wrote: > In a desperate effort to get on topic, I dug this out of the pile... Yes, on topic messages were getting rather thin on the ground ;-) > French minicomputers...hmmm, those sound interesting. I rarely see French > made electronics here - I would like to see how it compares to other > things. What was the name of the manufacturer? Micral, SEA, Bull are three that come immediately to mind. I don't have access to the inventory yet. > > Among the DEC machines I saw was a complete PDP-9. How rare are these? > > You may never see one ever again! > > The 18-bit DEC machines were never a really big hit (they were odd ducks, > mostly made for process control), and really did not survive well at all. > I would venture to say that there are probably less than ten of the 18 bit > machines in captivity today, and that includes PDP-1s, 7s, 9s, 9/Ls, and > the various 15s. That is good news (for us). Do you have contact details for anyone who has one? Are you connected with the Rhode Island group? If so I would appreciate some pointers on how to operate such a group. We have this huge collection here gathering dust in a storehouse but plans are in place to move it to a location where some, hopefully many, of these machines will be restored to working state. Regards, Hans B Pufal From william at ans.net Wed May 13 23:24:19 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: <355A5DA1.99D812D@cnct.com> Message-ID: > Come on now, Bill -- I assume you've read an Ashton-Tate dBase > manual in your time. Or a Chrysler service manual. The Sinclair > instructions were sufficient unto the day. Hell, consider the > documentation IBM provided about their hardware to the "end user" > in that era pre-PC (and the early PC docs weren't much to write > home about). Sufficient? Ha! These bad docs were for the kits! How would someone know that resistor X goes in position Y for NTSC, but position Z for PAL and SECAM? At least with flaws in software manuals, you can spot flaws simply by seeing the difference in what the book says and how the program reacts. William Donzelli william@ans.net From donm at cts.com Wed May 13 23:52:23 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980513134339.42e73a36@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 May 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 09:44 AM 5/13/98 -0400, you wrote: > > > > Personally, I believe the "computer literacy in schools is everything" > > movement is a result of inept teachers and a haywire NEA. Here in the > > > > Washington, D.C. area I have read reports of teachers pushing > > 'invented' spelling as a method to avoid hurting the challenged > > student's self esteem. Educators seem to think the student will It is not a new problem, though. I had an English Lit. instructor at the University of Michigan in 1947 - Air Force veteran - who admitted that he couldn't spell and didn't think it was important! - don > Ummm... I don't doubt someone came up with this, but I doubt that it is > widespread; If one teacher does it, the media pick it up and report it as > if everyone was doing it, and of course the public loves to think that all > teachers are idiots just goofing off until they can retire. > > I think it's jealousy over this (imaginary) summer vacation. > > Most teachers are extremely hard working, committed educators who put a lot > of their own time and money into their classes. My girlfriend (admittedly, > one of the most insane) arrives at school before 7am (everyday) and rarely > leaves before 5pm. She spends her evenings and weekends doing schoolwork. > She spends her summers planning the next year and building various > curriculum. And she works with the other teachers all the time, so she's > not alone. > > The problem is partially a lack of funding for schools and very a lack of > adequate parenting. Rachel sent home some work for the kids to do with > their parents one time; she got one back where the father had written (on > both sides, in big, red letters) that his kid can't do such advanced work > (they'd been doing it in class all week) and that "I AM NOT A TEACHER". > With a father like that, it's a wonder that the kid knows how to go to the > bathroom. > > There are other kids: one whose parents come to school at lunch time to > take him to the bathroom and feed him his lunch (first grade, no kidding), > and a kid who is almost completely blind, yet even after the social worker > took him to the eye doctor (with her own money) still doesn't have glasses. > Kids whose parents beat them, who are being raised by grandparents because > their parents don't want them, kids who see people shot in real life, as > well as on TV. And there are kids who are taught to hate because of skin > color or religion, or whatever. Kids that are taught that the proper > response to a disagreement is hit. Kids that are ignored at home, left on > their own with a babysitter or nanny, or worse, to wander the neighborhood. > Kids that are allowed, even encouraged, if it will shut them up, to watch > stuff on telly that even *I* won't watch. > > Sure, there are bad teachers out there, just as there are bad mechanics, > programmers, doctors, etc. But most of them work harder than probably > anybody on this list, and probably for a lot less money. > > But parents don't even take responsibility for checking out the teachers. > There are also different styles of teaching; you wouldn't drop your volvo > off at a Land Rover mechanic, would you? But most parents don't bother to > see (or ask) if a teacher's style is the best for their kids. > > Most parents pay more attention to whether or not their kids have brushed > their teeth than whether or not they've done their homework. > > Don't put the blame on the teachers without putting it on the parents as well. > > > > in software will correct them. What a cop out. I don't believe > > students should be introduced to computers (read: word > > processors/calculators) until the first year of high school after > > mastering basic reading, comprehension, writing and math skills. > > Computers are a very valuable tool for teaching those very skills. To deny > kids access to them is to slow them down. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From william at ans.net Wed May 13 23:58:03 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Ali Babas cave In-Reply-To: <355A69FE.6C5@digiweb.com> Message-ID: > Micral, SEA, Bull are three that come immediately to mind. I don't have > access to the inventory yet. OK, those names are familiar (is that the same Bull as in Honeywell-Bull?). Nope, they do not show up around here! > That is good news (for us). Do you have contact details for anyone who > has one? The DEC Australia collection probably has one (but they have damn near one of EVERYTHING DEC made!). > Are you connected with the Rhode Island group? If so I would appreciate > some pointers on how to operate such a group. We have this huge > collection here gathering dust in a storehouse but plans are in place to > move it to a location where some, hopefully many, of these machines will > be restored to working state. I am one of the directors of the group, and one of the "later" founders. Operating the group is quite a task, in that we also have a rather large collection, but we have it housed in a rented room at an old rubber factory - a very useable space with power, STRONG floors, a freight elevator, and a dock. We do not, however, have extra space. Right now we are looking into getting pallet racks to get some of the collection off the ground (4 ft. DEC cabinets in a room with a 20 ft. ceiling is a bit of a waste!). Money for rent, of course, is a bit of a problem. We all have to chip in. We also sell some of the stuff we get donated (anyone here want to buy some brand new fibre, or how about an original NSFnet router?). Getting linked up to a big company or two really helps for the donations, even if they are nothing more than old PeeCee junk. Getting machines for the collection is the easy part - building a collection of 1970s and 80s iron (our forte) can happen in a very short amount of time. And yes, every so often a real gem comes along! Maybe you can hang around or list for a while, just to see our day to day activities - let me talk to our list owner. William Donzelli william@ans.net From donm at cts.com Thu May 14 00:05:26 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: About the Wang '669 patent In-Reply-To: <355A5415.EC2F4969@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 May 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > And as proof that collecting junky old computers has its perqs, Netscape > > > > That's about the worst pun I've ever seen on classiccmp ;-) > > Not intentional, I'm sure, since I don't think Doug collects that > line (And the word is common US shorthand for "perquitite", though Err. Umm. Isn't that perquisite? - don > usually spelled "perk". But that _is_ how the best puns are made. > -- > Ward Griffiths > They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > From dastar at wco.com Thu May 14 01:30:55 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity [Heathkit Analog computers] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 May 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > Does anyone have a Heath _analog_ computer? I never saw one, but they do > exist. Well, that _Dc Analog Computers_ book I bragged about finding a couple weeks ago has photos and descriptions of a couple Heath analog computers circa 1952. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From dastar at wco.com Thu May 14 01:47:46 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Can we talk about computers at least? Message-ID: People. Could we move the discussion about the perceived woeful inadequacies of the current state of public education to a more appropriate forum? Like say a usenet group? Or a new mailing list? Basically anywhere but here, where it really does not belong? Thanks in advance. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Thu May 14 02:31:00 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Ali Babas cave In-Reply-To: References: <355A69FE.6C5@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <199805140731.RAA16865@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 12:58 AM 14-05-98 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >> That is good news (for us). Do you have contact details for anyone who >> has one? > >The DEC Australia collection probably has one (but they have damn near one >of EVERYTHING DEC made!). If this is discussing a PDP-9 then yes, there is at least one in the collection - the first Digital box purchased by La Trobe in about 1967. There's an interesting story behind this system: In about 1968 the -9 was stored in a basement area which was unfortunately flooded when some high-pressure water pipes ruptured. My current boss (who was Computer Centre Manager at the time) along with the technical officer moved the -9 out onto a lawn and it was disassembled. The parts were then washed and dried in front of radial heaters (one of which is still in use in my bosses office!). The -9 was reassembled but three flip chip modules were found spare! The system ran (without them) for about 10 years before being replaced with a PDP-15, DECsystem-10 and Vaxes of various types. It was decommissioned and moved to the DEA museum collection. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From yowza at yowza.com Thu May 14 02:51:00 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Heathkit Analog computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 13 May 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Does anyone have a Heath _analog_ computer? I never saw one, but they do > > exist. > > Well, that _Dc Analog Computers_ book I bragged about finding a couple > weeks ago has photos and descriptions of a couple Heath analog computers > circa 1952. I've seen one, and I've been trying to find one for myself for a while now. The one I saw is on display at Advanced Computer Products in Santa Ana. IIRC, a metal box comprised of a patch panel and some knobs. (searching the web.) Ah, here it is, the EC-1 from 1962: http://www.cyberventure.com/heathkit/computers/ec-1.html -- Doug From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu May 14 04:10:50 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: 3.5" Drive for Apple ??? In-Reply-To: <199805131303.IAA01566@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 May 1998, David Williams wrote: > Early versions of the Apple //c didn't have the support for 3.5" > drives. Mine is like that. You can check which version of the //c > you have by going into Applesoft and doing a PRINT PEEK(64447). If > it returns 255 then you have an original //c. The tech ref shows 3 > basic versions and their ID bytes as follows: > > Original //c : ID Byte = 255 > > UniDisk //c : ID Byte = 0 Mine returns 0, so this is the one. It should support 3.5" drives, though possibly not the one I've got. > Added 3.5" support > Increased ROM to 256K ^^^^ You've GOT to be kidding me! Unless it means "ROMs that will support 256K of RAM". Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu May 14 04:38:38 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: OS/2 Errors.. Message-ID: <000301bd7f1c$2d99ade0$6f67bcc1@hotze> Sorry, as it seems that I've become the maker of off-topic content, but now after I've installed OS/2 (first 6 disks) Warp 3, using FAT (High Performance File System didn't work), I get: OS/2 !! SYS01475 OS/2 !! SYS02027 So anyway, it freezes like that. This, BTW, is on a 2.1GB HDD, with no other OS'es currently installed. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu May 14 04:56:16 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: 3.5" Drive for Apple ??? In-Reply-To: <355A518A.B9FC6368@exit109.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 May 1998, John Ruschmeyer wrote: > > It's a DS800 from DataSpace Corporation. > > > > It physically plugs into my Apple //c, but I can't get the machine to > > recognize it. The drive makes a noise when I power up the computer, but > > that's all. Attempts to access S6, D2 or any other slot and drive > > combination doesn't get anywhere. > > Not surprising... the only 3.5" drive that will work with a //c is the > Unidisk (assuming you have a //c which will even work with one of > those). Bummer. I really wanted this drive to work with an 8-bit Apple. Oh well, perhaps I'll find a Unidisk during next week's visit to the thrift shops. :) > > Is there something I need to do to get my //c to recognize the drive? Or > > is it intended for use on a //gs? Or did this company make a line of > > dangerous Mac peripherals in an attempt to give the platform a bad name > > for an overabundance of disk corruptions? ;) > > //gs, definately. Well, that's cool. I don't have a //gs yet, but as soon as I see one I'll snarf it up (providing there isn't also a Sol 20, an Ohio Scientific anything, and an IMSAI at the same place at the same time ;) ). I did pick up another Apple peripheral at the same time, which may offer a clue. It's a Modem 1200, Model A9M0301. The "clue", assuming it came from the same source, is the 8-pin mini-DIN connector. I don't know what uses that kind of connection for the serial port. > Specifically, this drive appears to be a clone of the Apple 3.5" Drive > (yes, that's its name). The Apple drive could work on either the //gs or > the Mac Plus, so this one is probably set up similarly. Did the Apple 3.5" Drive have a mechanical eject? Fully manual, I mean, not just a push-button that tells the motorized ejection mechanism to wake up. Very un-Mac-like. > FYI, it will probably also work nicely on a Laser 128 or with the Laser > Universal Disk Controller (UDC) card for the Apple //. Now if only I could find a disk controller for my Laser *3000*... ;) > <<>> Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu May 14 05:02:27 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: 3.5" Drive for Apple ??? In-Reply-To: <199805140244.VAA13591@mailbox.neosoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 May 1998, David Williams wrote: > Ok Sam, I have the Apple //c Technical Reference Manual with me now. > It has a complete source code listing of the final version of the //c > Firmware ROM. The memory map shows the //c firmware > occupied 32K. 16K listed as "Main side ROM" and another 16K as ^^ ^^ ^^ > "Auxillary side ROM". Besides Applesoft and the monitor, they show > UniDisk 3.5" routines (part of SmartPort), mouse handlers, Mouse > BASIC routines, ACIA routines, diagnostic routines, the > mini-assembler, extra monitor commands, firmware for all of the > "built-in cards" and lots and lots of assembler utility routines and > the SmartPort/Protocol Converter. It says later models had "a 256K ^^^ > ROM IC to replace the 128K ROM". I'd guess without further digging ^^^ > that the 32K of ROM on the memory map doesn't include all of the > code. I'd bet that these "128K" and "256K" figures are in kiloBITS, not kiloBYTES. So the "128K" ROM is 16KB, and the "256K" ROM is 32KB, making all of the numbers magically work. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Thu May 14 05:21:42 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Everything about Apple /// Message-ID: >> [wap]... >>Thanks! We'll jump right over the the web pa....oh, you didn't post one. >>Ok then we'll just call the phone numbe...oops, you didn't give us that >>either. Ok, well I guess we'll just have to do it the hard way and write >>a letter to...hmmm, no physical address. :*) Seem to remember I had the same problem when I tried to find out info about my /// a few years back... back then WAP had no web site, email or anything that I could find, which made life difficult for those of us stuck in the UK... hopefully things have progressed a little by now! (If you find a web address could you post it here please?) cheers, Jules > From kroma at worldnet.att.net Thu May 14 07:22:31 1998 From: kroma at worldnet.att.net (kroma) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: 3.5" Drive for Apple ??? Message-ID: <00be01bd7f32$f91f1ca0$7687440c@kroma-i> >I did pick up another Apple peripheral at the same time, which may offer a >clue. It's a Modem 1200, Model A9M0301. The "clue", assuming it came >from the same source, is the 8-pin mini-DIN connector. I don't know what >uses that kind of connection for the serial port. > The //gs and Macs do, maybe the later //c or //c+ >Did the Apple 3.5" Drive have a mechanical eject? Fully manual, I mean, >not just a push-button that tells the motorized ejection mechanism to wake >up. Very un-Mac-like. The manual eject was only on the drives designed for the // series. -- Kirk From kroma at worldnet.att.net Thu May 14 07:39:13 1998 From: kroma at worldnet.att.net (kroma) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Everything about Apple /// Message-ID: <00db01bd7f35$4dbd7ca0$7687440c@kroma-i> >Seem to remember I had the same problem when I tried to find out info >about my /// a few years back... back then WAP had no web site, email or >anything that I could find, which made life difficult for those of us >stuck in the UK... hopefully things have progressed a little by now! > >(If you find a web address could you post it here please?) http://www.wap.org/ -- Kirk From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 14 07:44:03 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader /STUDENTS Message-ID: <199805141244.AA02423@world.std.com> Despite my former comments I'd say computers do have a place in education as do television. I went through most of school as an avid non-writer, managed good grades despite it even in english so long as writing was not required. It was word processing or actually a simple editor and printer that open the door to writing, somehow made it less painful. It didn't help my bizzare grammer or spelling but at least I wrote. The catalyst was writing code and having to document it. Did computers help, yes. It wasn't pacman or clicking icons just using the tool for what it can do best. What was best was simply allowing me to bang down words and then peice them together in some sensible way. As to what computer to use, old! why old, no matter what they have new now it will be old it a few years when they have to apply it. It's better they understand so that the knowledge can be applied rather than keystrokes. Students would do better to learn VI and ED than the latest version of QARK or Word. Allison From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu May 14 07:51:10 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: OS/2 Errors.. Message-ID: In a message dated 98-05-14 05:40:03 EDT, you write: << Sorry, as it seems that I've become the maker of off-topic content, but now after I've installed OS/2 (first 6 disks) Warp 3, using FAT (High Performance File System didn't work), I get: OS/2 !! SYS01475 OS/2 !! SYS02027 >> if i remember correctly, that's the os2 version of: non system disk or disk error. you might have to remove the floppy from a: drive or do a sysinstx command to sys the hard drive. david From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu May 14 07:55:26 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: 3.5" Drive for Apple ??? Message-ID: <5dddd051.355ae9bf@aol.com> In a message dated 98-05-14 08:25:05 EDT, you write: << The //gs and Macs do, maybe the later //c or //c+ >> the //c does not have the mini din connector so i guess its probably on the gs and c+ models do. i have an aftermarket 800k mac drive that either has motor eject and it also has a pushbutton eject also. i have an old apple magazine from years ago that has a compatibility matrix for all the apples and drives. if anyone wants more info, i can find the magazine. david From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Thu May 14 08:09:04 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Re PDP-9 found in Grenoble France References: <355A69FE.6C5@digiweb.com> <199805140731.RAA16865@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <355AECF0.49DE@digiweb.com> Huw Davies wrote: > If this is discussing a PDP-9 then yes, there is at least one in the > collection - the first Digital box purchased by La Trobe in about 1967. > There's an interesting story behind this system: ... > The -9 was reassembled but three flip chip modules > were found spare! The system ran (without them) for about 10 years That is a good story. Do you remember which three modules ;-) Is your system operational? And do you have any software for it? I have not yet gotten the history of our unit. It appears that it belongs to the Paris Science museum who passed it on to our group since they had no facilities for housing it. I did notice some damage to the front panel switches but otherwise the unit appears to be in good shape. I will know much more in the next couple of months when we get moved to our new premises. There are so many systems in theis collection needing urgent attention but I think I will adopt this one. I would love to hear form anyone with information, documentation or software for the beastie. I will keep you all informed as to progress. Regards, Hans B Pufal From archive at navix.net Thu May 14 09:40:55 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Classics in Chicago area? Message-ID: <355B0276.1A9635F1@navix.net> This is for those of you in the Chicago area, and anyone else that might be able to help me. I am just writing to ask if some of you might be able to direct to some good classic computer sources in the Chicago, Illinois area. I am leaving for Chicago for the weekend, and will have some free time to browse thrift shops, etc. Any place that might have a good stock of old 8-bitters? Thanks, CORD COSLOR -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\| From andy at topaz.kiev.ua Thu May 14 07:47:25 1998 From: andy at topaz.kiev.ua (Andy Kovtoon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: OS/2 Errors.. Message-ID: <199805141247.PAA26720@shark.topaz.kiev.ua> Qoo, Tim! At 12:38 14.05.98 +0300, you wrote: >after I've installed OS/2 (first 6 disks) Warp 3, using FAT (High >Performance File System didn't work), I get: Wadda hell... >OS/2 !! SYS01475 >OS/2 !! SYS02027 > >So anyway, it freezes like that. This, BTW, is on a 2.1GB HDD, with no >other OS'es currently installed. It may be 2.1G that causes the problem - if it is used as single partition. I heard that Warp3 isn't too well in handling big partitions. Try breaking it into smaller pieces (<1G) hope that helps, -andy From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu May 14 12:26:13 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: ASR33 Message-ID: <9804148951.AA895192077@compsci.powertech.co.uk> >> I used a TTY ASR-33 as a printer for my PET years ago. My memory is >> that if I left the receiver open circuit, i yammered away printing >> nulls; if I shorted out the loop it didn't. I interfaced it using one >> transistor - no power supply was necessary. >> >> +---------------------- >> | >> OUT b |/c >> -------/\/\/\/---------| NPN TTY >> |\e >> PET | >> -------------------------+---------------------- >> GND > > > For I've got a Kludge > And a good Kludge too ;-) > > Seriously, that works. I've done it myself a few times. But it's not the > official way to drive a teletype - the external device should source the > loop current. And I prefer to teach people the right way and let them > find out the kludges for themselves. Oh, yes. Absolutely. But I was disagreeing with your assertion that while 5V might do for the transmit loop, you'd "need" 12V for the receive loop. >> Note: I never interfaced the TTY transmitter - not even for reading >> paper tape (don't know why not) IIRC, one of the problems I had was the high resistance of the transmit loop - many kilohms, I think. It probably was mostly contact resistance and highly non-linear i.e. apparent resistance would be less at higher currents), but I wouldn't like to use only 5V. I'd suggest a reasonable sized decoupling capacitor to get rid of contact noise, too - say, up to 1 microfarad. > Err, because the ASR33 reader is horrible and mangles tapes? You have a > Trend, don't you? This was at least 4 years before I ever _saw_ any other paper tape stuff. Long before I got the Trend. Or even my little DSI box. (DSI = Data Specialties Inc. They made a 30cps reader/punch unit that was sold in the UK by a small company called Teleprinter Equipment Ltd. Never met either of them anywhere else.) Philip. From maynard at jmg.com Thu May 14 12:15:48 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Can we talk about computers at least? In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Wed, 13 May 1998 23:47:46 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <199805141715.NAA12239@mr-gateway.internal.net> Well Agreed! Sorry I haven't been active in the list much... between work and a family illness I've been _busy_! BTW: Anyone planning on attending the MIT Flea market this Sunday? I doubt prices are going to be reasonable what with that $100 PDP-11/23 last month. --jmg > From: Sam Ismail > Subject: Can we talk about computers at least? > > People. > > Could we move the discussion about the perceived woeful inadequacies of > the current state of public education to a more appropriate forum? Like > say a usenet group? Or a new mailing list? Basically anywhere but here, > where it really does not belong? From bill.sheehan at stoneweb.com Thu May 14 12:16:52 1998 From: bill.sheehan at stoneweb.com (bill.sheehan@stoneweb.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Can we talk about computers at least? Message-ID: <85256604.005EE67C.00@bos_notes1.swec.com> I'd love to check out the MIT Flea Market. When and where is it? "J. Maynard Gelinas" on 05/14/98 01:15:48 PM Please respond to classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" cc: (bcc: Bill Sheehan/Corporate/SWEC) Subject: Re: Can we talk about computers at least? Well Agreed! Sorry I haven't been active in the list much... between work and a family illness I've been _busy_! BTW: Anyone planning on attending the MIT Flea market this Sunday? I doubt prices are going to be reasonable what with that $100 PDP-11/23 last month. --jmg > From: Sam Ismail > Subject: Can we talk about computers at least? > > People. > > Could we move the discussion about the perceived woeful inadequacies of > the current state of public education to a more appropriate forum? Like > say a usenet group? Or a new mailing list? Basically anywhere but here, > where it really does not belong? From mor at crl.com Thu May 14 11:55:36 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Oh, what a tangled web... Message-ID: <355B2208.6FAA6101@crl.com> With the recent discussion on the MTPRO price guide, the ZX80 bashing, and a bit further back the Enrico Tedeschi flame festival, I found it quite amusing to run across the following entry at eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13957826 For those without a web browser, I'll just say that this is a book on Sinclair computer history, being auctioned by the author of the MTPRO price guide (who goes by the handle "ClassicComputing" at eBay). Most remarkable of all, the book was authored by a gentleman named Enrico Tedeschi. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 14 13:02:54 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 13, 98 09:50:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 752 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980514/697e7c5a/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu May 14 13:34:50 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:53 2005 Subject: Oh, what a tangled web... References: <355B2208.6FAA6101@crl.com> Message-ID: <355B394A.9FD3053F@bbtel.com> Greg Troutman wrote: > With the recent discussion on the MTPRO price guide, the ZX80 bashing, > and a bit further back the Enrico Tedeschi flame festival, I found it > quite amusing to run across the following entry at eBay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13957826 > > For those without a web browser, I'll just say that this is a book on > Sinclair computer history, being auctioned by the author of the MTPRO > price guide (who goes by the handle "ClassicComputing" at eBay). Most > remarkable of all, the book was authored by a gentleman named Enrico > Tedeschi. You sure wouldn't know it by the way he writes in the list area, would you. I guess anyone can write a book anymore. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From staponski at swpa.gov Thu May 14 13:36:32 1998 From: staponski at swpa.gov (Randy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Message-ID: <355B39AF.4038CF5F@swpa.gov> Kai- I am interested in purchasing the North Star Horizon. I am not local and don't have a trade so would be a cash deal. Do you have any info about the machine such as amount of memory, type of floppy(ies), last known operating system, hard drive (if any), keyboard, monitor, and condition (working/nonworking). Thanks Randy Staponski From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu May 14 13:40:18 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: OS/2 Errors.. Message-ID: <001701bd7f6b$30c3abc0$5c6fbcc1@hotze> >Qoo, Tim! >Wadda hell... If you say so. ;-) Anyway good to see you subscribed. >>OS/2 !! SYS01475 >>OS/2 !! SYS02027 >> >>So anyway, it freezes like that. This, BTW, is on a 2.1GB HDD, with no >>other OS'es currently installed. >It may be 2.1G that causes the problem - if it is used as single partition. >I heard that Warp3 isn't too well in handling big partitions. Try breaking >it into smaller pieces (<1G) Oh, yeah, that's why I gave specifically 2.1GB. So I'm going to have the boot manager, 120MB for Warp, 700 for Linux and the rest for Windows (remember, I need to run some Win32 apps, not by choice.) >hope that helps, >-andy Tim D. Hotze From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 14 14:24:49 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Message-ID: <199805141924.AA00871@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199805141843.NAA02708@trailingedge.com> On 14 May 98 at 15:24, Allison J Parent wrote: > It interests me why some one wants a particular machine especially > since you do not seem to know much about it. Well, I can't speak for the person you were replying to, but in my case I'm often interested in machines I know little to nothing about because I'm interested in learning about them. Although you can learn a lot without one, it can help if you have one to explore. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu May 14 15:35:38 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) Message-ID: <19980514203538.24692.qmail@hotmail.com> Haven't you ever spelled upside-down words on a calculator before? Q: What is the Divine Comedy about? ( [4] [3] [3] [7] [M+] ) Hell >Russ Blakeman wrote: > >> Remember when the LED HP calculators were banned from high schools and >> considered cheating? My best friend was suspended over just the possession of >> one in school, not even in class. Of course he's a few years younger than I as >> I don't remember calculators being much less than the price of a good used car >> when I was in school. They came down dramatically in 76 when I was going >> through electronics training. I think the one I had cost $105 then and we >> thought that was cheap. > >I was forbidden to take my old Pickett out of its holster many times >back in my early 70s high school days. Never understood what >advantage it was supposed to give me in an EngLit test ... >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Thu May 14 15:40:00 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Re PDP-9 found in Grenoble France In-Reply-To: <355AECF0.49DE@digiweb.com> from "Hans B Pufal" at May 14, 98 03:09:04 pm Message-ID: <199805142040.NAA30936@saul4.u.washington.edu> > Huw Davies wrote: > Is your system operational? And do you have any software for it? A month ago I visited my brother at Dartmouth College (in New Hampshire). I did my usual "what books on old computers are at the library?" search, and found someone's thesis describing a mini-timesharing system for the -9. The whole document is VERY thick since it describes the system and includes full source code. It was written to coexist with other OS's -- DEC's PDP-9 software, something called GROWTH, and Dartmouth's large DTSS timesharing system (which ran on a different computer family -- I don't know which). And it can't assemble itself (since it doesn't include an assembler). But with enough work this could be an interesting lead. Here's the library citation: Author: Blean, Robert W. Title: The PDP-9 mini time-sharing system / by Robert W. Blean. Collation: 677 leaves in various foliations ; 28 cm. Imprint: 1972. Notes: Thesis (M.S.)--Thayer School of Engineering, 1972. Material Type: book Language: english Subjects: PDP-9 (Computer) Time-sharing computer systems. Minicomputers. Other Authors: Thayer School of Engineering. Location: Bus-Engr, Thesis M.S. Engr. 1972 Perhaps Dartmouth would send it out via Interlibrary Loan. Incidentally, DTSS was the system that BASIC was developed for. And DTSS still exists, apparently, though I'm sure it has changed a LOT in 30 years. -- Derek From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu May 14 15:40:45 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION Message-ID: <19980514204045.6342.qmail@hotmail.com> I will say Amen to that, considering that I just mailed 9 boxes of MS-DOS 3.3 which were still shrinkwrapped and beign thrown away by my school. THat has to be $500 right there that could have been used on pencils. I won't complain about the fate the DOS 3.1 boxes met... > >> >> Personally, I believe the "computer literacy in schools is everything" >> movement is a result of inept teachers and a haywire NEA. > >Amen! > >> students should be introduced to computers (read: word >> processors/calculators) until the first year of high school after >> mastering basic reading, comprehension, writing and math skills. > > >The problem with introducing elementary and middle school kids to >computers so early is that they either a) know more than the lab admin, or >b) aren't allowed to use them in any constructive way. I'm only in the >tenth grade, but I've already seen seven new labs installed in area schools. >The school districts almost ALWAYS spend WAY too much on new computers, >mainly from the worst vendors, only to have to replace them when the >warranty runs out (with very little usage, BTW). The computers simply >aren't used until high school, when word processing/database, programming, >and other such courses are offered. Anything before is mainly a waste of >money. > >What about the 'net? I don't understand why people think that the >internet is such a great "tool" that will help schools. Just do a search >for "barbie" on Yahoo. Or, for that matter, try "video" or something >general. Especially considering that most schools don't use any >Internet blocking software.. > >It takes most people a long time to get used to using search engines in such a >way to get what they want. Most people in my school don't have any idea how to >use the 'net, and could care less. That is the general attitude at most >schools that I have been to. > >In other words, most of the money spent on computer equipment is a waste. > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Thu May 14 15:43:24 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) In-Reply-To: <19980514203538.24692.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 May 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Haven't you ever spelled upside-down words on a calculator before? > Q: What is the Divine Comedy about? > ( [4] [3] [3] [7] [M+] ) Hell LEEH? -- Doug :-) From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu May 14 15:44:58 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) References: <19980514203538.24692.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <355B57C9.C94BC34@bbtel.com> Max Eskin wrote: > Haven't you ever spelled upside-down words on a calculator before? > Q: What is the Divine Comedy about? > ( [4] [3] [3] [7] [M+] ) Hell Sure, but that spells HEEL....4377 is HELL, 54377 is SHELL and 43770 is HELLO. Now onto our regularly scheduled topic. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 14 15:46:42 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Message-ID: <199805142046.AA07494@world.std.com> <> It interests me why some one wants a particular machine especially <> since you do not seem to know much about it. < I have a new copy of Windows 3.0 for sale. It's never been used but the shrink is off of the outer box but the manual is still wrapped and the disks untouched. It comes with 1.2m 5.25" fl;oppies but if someone wants this and needs a set of 1.44m 3.5" disks I can make those and add them to it. I need $15 for it with only the 5.25" disks, mailed to anywhere in the 48 continental states. Add $2.50 (17.50 total) if you wish a set of 1.44m 3.5" disks included (copies from the 1.2's) to cover the floppies and the little extra weight. I have only the one copy so first come first served. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu May 14 15:52:42 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: 3.5 Message-ID: <19980514205242.730.qmail@hotmail.com> I remember frying a //c by plugging in an 800K external drive. Hey! It fit! >On Wed, 13 May 1998, David Williams wrote: > >> Early versions of the Apple //c didn't have the support for 3.5" >> drives. Mine is like that. You can check which version of the //c >> you have by going into Applesoft and doing a PRINT PEEK(64447). If >> it returns 255 then you have an original //c. The tech ref shows 3 >> basic versions and their ID bytes as follows: >> >> Original //c : ID Byte = 255 >> >> UniDisk //c : ID Byte = 0 > >Mine returns 0, so this is the one. It should support 3.5" drives, though >possibly not the one I've got. > >> Added 3.5" support >> Increased ROM to 256K > ^^^^ You've GOT to be kidding me! > >Unless it means "ROMs that will support 256K of RAM". > > > >Doug Spence >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu May 14 15:56:52 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Can we talk about computers at least? Message-ID: <19980514205656.23728.qmail@hotmail.com> I will do my best to drop by. I don't really intend to buy much, just take a breaking from browsing _virtual_ computer museums > Well Agreed! > > Sorry I haven't been active in the list much... between work and >a family illness I've been _busy_! BTW: Anyone planning on attending >the MIT Flea market this Sunday? I doubt prices are going to be >reasonable what with that $100 PDP-11/23 last month. > >--jmg > >> From: Sam Ismail >> Subject: Can we talk about computers at least? >> >> People. >> >> Could we move the discussion about the perceived woeful inadequacies of >> the current state of public education to a more appropriate forum? Like >> say a usenet group? Or a new mailing list? Basically anywhere but here, >> where it really does not belong? > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu May 14 16:00:30 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) References: Message-ID: <355B5B6D.FB694A28@bbtel.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > On Thu, 14 May 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > > > Haven't you ever spelled upside-down words on a calculator before? > > Q: What is the Divine Comedy about? > > ( [4] [3] [3] [7] [M+] ) Hell > > LEEH? Don't mind my off topic reply, I'm dislecsic too (however it's delleps) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu May 14 16:00:44 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) Message-ID: <19980514210044.8579.qmail@hotmail.com> Sorry, I always get those things backwards ;) [7] [7] [3] [4] [M+] >On Thu, 14 May 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > >> Haven't you ever spelled upside-down words on a calculator before? >> Q: What is the Divine Comedy about? >> ( [4] [3] [3] [7] [M+] ) Hell > >LEEH? > >-- Doug :-) > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu May 14 15:32:52 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: PLease ID CD-ROM unit Message-ID: <19980514203253.29073.qmail@hotmail.com> So do you suppose it would be possible to take a shot at figuring out how the thing works? I have no drivers for it. I could look up what the 164P is wired to, saturday or monday. Do you think it would be feasible to develop a driver for it? >> Hitachi HD74LS32P > >Quad 2-input OR gate. > >> 367AP > >Is that another chip? If so, its a hex 3-state buffer > >> 240P > >And that's an octal inverting 3-state buffer > >> 164P > >And a shift register (odd...) > >> MB74LS00 > >Quad 2 input AND gate > >> 138 > >3-8 line decoder. > >> >> TI J549X SN74LS541N > >Octal 3-state buffer. > >Probably some kind of address decoder (the '138) and buffers. Nothing too >unusual (although what the '164 is doing I don't know). > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mor at crl.com Thu May 14 17:21:50 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Televideo 925 switch settings Message-ID: <355B6E7E.29CAF9A9@crl.com> Can someone tell me what each of these dip switches do? -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 14 15:50:00 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: ASR33 In-Reply-To: <9804148951.AA895192077@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at May 14, 98 05:26:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1341 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980514/97ab1beb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 14 15:16:03 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 14, 98 00:24:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 848 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980514/ea8fc819/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 14 15:22:22 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Ali Babas cave In-Reply-To: <199805140731.RAA16865@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> from "Huw Davies" at May 14, 98 05:31:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 761 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980514/ff5f6f9f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 14 14:38:02 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: About the Wang '669 patent In-Reply-To: <355A5415.EC2F4969@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at May 13, 98 10:16:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1104 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980514/dd7adc46/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 14 19:36:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: PLease ID CD-ROM unit In-Reply-To: <19980514203253.29073.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at May 14, 98 01:32:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 697 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980515/c8c7f15a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 14 19:29:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: <199805141843.NAA02708@trailingedge.com> from "David Williams" at May 14, 98 02:42:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 949 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980515/5cc5e143/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 14 19:31:59 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: <199805141924.AA00871@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at May 14, 98 03:24:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 582 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980515/357b0e2d/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Thu May 14 20:41:43 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Teaching Students Computers... (Semi-OT) References: <19980514203538.24692.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <355B9D57.ECACD30A@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > Haven't you ever spelled upside-down words on a calculator before? > Q: What is the Divine Comedy about? > ( [4] [3] [3] [7] [M+] ) Hell Sure I did, later, when I could afford a calculator. My Pickett was a slide rule. Still is, actually. Solid aluminium. > >Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > >> Remember when the LED HP calculators were banned from high schools > and > >> considered cheating? My best friend was suspended over just the > possession of > >> one in school, not even in class. Of course he's a few years younger > than I as > >> I don't remember calculators being much less than the price of a good > used car > >> when I was in school. They came down dramatically in 76 when I was > going > >> through electronics training. I think the one I had cost $105 then > and we > >> thought that was cheap. > > > >I was forbidden to take my old Pickett out of its holster many times > >back in my early 70s high school days. Never understood what > >advantage it was supposed to give me in an EngLit test ... > >-- > >Ward Griffiths > >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Thu May 14 21:27:03 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Re PDP-9 found in Grenoble France References: <199805142040.NAA30936@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <355BA7F7.E9BA62E5@cnct.com> D. Peschel wrote: > A month ago I visited my brother at Dartmouth College (in New Hampshire). > I did my usual "what books on old computers are at the library?" search, > and found someone's thesis describing a mini-timesharing system for the -9. > The whole document is VERY thick since it describes the system and includes > full source code. > > It was written to coexist with other OS's -- DEC's PDP-9 software, something > called GROWTH, and Dartmouth's large DTSS timesharing system (which ran on a > different computer family -- I don't know which). And it can't assemble > itself (since it doesn't include an assembler). But with enough work this > could be an interesting lead. (some skipping) > Incidentally, DTSS was the system that BASIC was developed for. And DTSS still Not necessarily. New Hampshire is a funny place, where if something almost works they'll keep doing it for the next 300 years. I spent my latter teen years there (after reaching age 15 in Los Angeles), my family is there to this day. I've been there once in the past twenty years. However, besides the creation of BASIC, New Hampshire gave us (as classic computer collectors) Wayne Green and therefore "Byte", "Kilobaud" and their many descendents. (I realize that "Byte" is just another PC rag these days, but backalong it was a damned fine piece of work under Green and then Helmers, rivalled only by other now-defunct [or even more mutated, i.e. Dr. Dobbs] magazines). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu May 14 21:21:24 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Oh, what a tangled web... Message-ID: <002701bd7fa8$3f440ea0$5c6fbcc1@hotze> Yes, but we're nearly at the dawn of the 21st century. We've got like what... 5 billion? And furthermore, there are several authors on the list, who actually controll their temper. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Russ Blakeman To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, May 14, 1998 9:36 PM Subject: Re: Oh, what a tangled web... >Greg Troutman wrote: > >> With the recent discussion on the MTPRO price guide, the ZX80 bashing, >> and a bit further back the Enrico Tedeschi flame festival, I found it >> quite amusing to run across the following entry at eBay: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13957826 >> >> For those without a web browser, I'll just say that this is a book on >> Sinclair computer history, being auctioned by the author of the MTPRO >> price guide (who goes by the handle "ClassicComputing" at eBay). Most >> remarkable of all, the book was authored by a gentleman named Enrico >> Tedeschi. > >You sure wouldn't know it by the way he writes in the list area, would >you. I guess anyone can write a book >anymore. ------------------------------------------------------------------ -- > > Russ Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ UIN #1714857 > AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 14 21:32:47 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Message-ID: <199805150232.AA20532@world.std.com> <> NS* were setup with 16-62k of ram. There were three common OSs run on <> them NS*dos(nothing like PC dos), CP/M-80, there was also UCSD pascal <> P-system. I believe NS*dos reached at least V5.4. They didn't not use <> a monitor or keyboard as a terminal was commonly used. < References: <355A69FE.6C5@digiweb.com> <199805140731.RAA16865@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <199805150314.NAA21353@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 03:09 PM 14-05-98 +0200, Hans B Pufal wrote: >Is your system operational? And do you have any software for it? Our system is now in Sydney but I believe it is operational (or was last time it was turned on). I would think that we have long since got rid of any software we had. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From marvin at rain.org Thu May 14 22:20:22 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Computer Values, was Re: Another EBay absurdity References: Message-ID: <355BB476.56756898@rain.org> I am one of those fortunate souls who have been collecting long enough that people tend to just drop off stuff on my front porch. Yesterday, I found a variety of older motherboards, etc. sitting out there including one of the Intel 386 "upgrades" for the AT. The day before, I was given a TRS-80 Model 4P and a Coco 2. IMNSHO, the values of all computers will vary greatly depending on the knowledge and experience of the person doing the valuation. Hmmm, sounds just like *every* other form of collecting. I, for one, do like to see what E-Bay is doing. I kept track for a while of the people who were bidding on the stuff, and there were a number of people there who were collectors. Last year, I was bidding on a Sol-20, and the guy who outbid me won the bid at $800 or so. High? I talked with the guy later on, and the machine was in mint condition, had all the original documentation, and also included some of the peripherals. The Altairs that have been sold there are *all* selling below the prices I have seen for similar systems. The prices quoted in the last go-around on the web site (don't recall it off hand) could be high or low depending on a lot of things (condition, docs, peripherals, etc) that most of us here probably take for granted. Someone less knowledgeable might well have a different idea of its worth that members of this list. FWIW, I tend to value my collection in the millions of dollars. And that is probably conservative ... if one were to go back in time and look at what the stuff cost new :). From yowza at yowza.com Thu May 14 23:03:00 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Computer Values In-Reply-To: <355BB476.56756898@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 May 1998, Marvin wrote: > a TRS-80 Model 4P and a Coco 2. IMNSHO, the values of all computers will > vary greatly depending on the knowledge and experience of the person > doing the valuation. Hmmm, sounds just like *every* other form of > collecting. I used to collect coins when I was a kid, and the Blue Book (wholesale values) and Red Book (retail values) were my bibles. Coins had a pretty good grading system, and you could find fairly reliable production data. I don't know of anybody that has tried to do anything close to this for computers. > I, for one, do like to see what E-Bay is doing. I kept track for a > while of the people who were bidding on the stuff, and there were a > number of people there who were collectors. Last year, I was bidding on > a Sol-20, and the guy who outbid me won the bid at $800 or so. High? I > talked with the guy later on, and the machine was in mint condition, had > all the original documentation, and also included some of the > peripherals. The Altairs that have been sold there are *all* selling > below the prices I have seen for similar systems. eBay and other online auctions are probably the best gauges of prices there are, because they represent fairly efficient markets. In fact, some online auctions that move their own inventory do regression analysis that tells them more or less what price they can expect to get for any given item. If somebody were to do the same analysis on person-to-person auction data, that would be a very good starting place for a price guide (especially from an auction like Haggle Online that also stores condition, make, and model information :-). If you only look at one or two anecdotal transactions, that doesn't tell you much. > FWIW, I tend to value my collection in the millions of dollars. And > that is probably conservative ... if one were to go back in time and > look at what the stuff cost new :). The real question is what value does your insurance company place on your collect. My guess is that they would value an Apple 1 based on a twenty year depreciation starting with a $666 basis! BTW, if, hypothetically, I were to find somebody willing to sell me a Heathkit EC-1 analog computer in good condition, what value would you experts assign to it, and what would you base your valuation on? -- Doug From rexstout at uswest.net Fri May 15 00:20:07 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: References: from "Sam Ismail" at May 13, 98 11:50:46 am Message-ID: >> MTPRO Closer to Reality >> Apple ][e: $80 $15-$20 Try free(like mine) to $15, although I've seen them go for $20+ even at swap meets... >> TRS-80 model II: $200 Don't have good guess but $200 way too high >> TRS-80 model III: $120 $15-$25 (many made) >> TRS-80 model IV: $120 (ditto) Doesn't seem to matter, the people who own them know the higher prices and want to get at LEAST that much... >> Compaq Portable: $100 Pfeh. $15 I'd get one for <$15, but I've yet to see one that cheap. Cheapest so far is $50. >> TI 99/4a: $30 Ugh. Try Free-$5 (99/4a's and VIC-20's were >> used as foot soldiers in the price war between >> TI and Commodore in the early 80s...tons made) Yep... I love mine, although I've had it since they were new... >> IBM PC model 5150: $100 Please. Hundreds of thousands made. Free. Laugh it into the ground... Free is the only price. And if that's not good enough, I recently picked up a Compaq 386/20 with multisync VGA monitor for free...Too bad I can't get the &^$&$(@$%#& 3.5" floppy to work. >> Macintosh 128K: $200 $50-$100. Not that hard to find. HA! Try free-$10. I think I paid too much for mine at $15. I have several 512K's and some less-than-functional 128K's I got for free. Now to add something new to the list... What are the best/worst for RFI? I'm into ham radio now, so that's a bit of a problem. My Zenith laptop is horrible, and the Mac LC II isn't too bad but it's monitor(currently the one I got with the Compaq 386) can be a bit annoying on the air. I'm going to try my TI-99/4A soon, and I'm not sure what to expect from it. And I never had any problem when I was using the radio near my PowerMac 6500(with an Apple 15AV monitor), although the radio equipent moved to the other end of the attic now... -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 15 00:31:01 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: RFI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 May 1998, John Rollins wrote: > Now to add something new to the list... What are the best/worst for RFI? > I'm into ham radio now, so that's a bit of a problem. My Zenith laptop is > horrible, and the Mac LC II isn't too bad but it's monitor(currently the > one I got with the Compaq 386) can be a bit annoying on the air. I'm going > to try my TI-99/4A soon, and I'm not sure what to expect from it. And I > never had any problem when I was using the radio near my PowerMac 6500(with > an Apple 15AV monitor), although the radio equipent moved to the other end > of the attic now... Best? A GRiD TEMPEST (like the GRiDCASE 1537). Not only is it bullet-proof, but it emits close to zero RFI (to prevent data snooping). Worst? Anything with a bunch of cables and a wireless modem, I guess. -- Doug From mor at crl.com Thu May 14 23:52:35 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Slacker redemption time Message-ID: <355BCA13.4560857A@crl.com> Okay, for all you so-called collectors who have been lax in filling your homes to the rafters with unloved digitalia, here's your big opportunity to start catching up with me: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=14015888 -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From pcoad at wco.com Fri May 15 02:58:08 1998 From: pcoad at wco.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: random bits need new home In-Reply-To: <355BCA13.4560857A@crl.com> Message-ID: Due to the volume reduction act of 1998 I need to find homes for a few things: 1.) Apple II ProDOS User's Kit. Complete in box. (Includes disk, manuals, packing list, foam, and other exciting artifacts.) 2.) Apple II Apple Logo. Includes box, disk, and 2 manuals ("Introduction to Programming through Turtle Graphics" and "Reference Manual"). 3.) Box of 8 inch floppies unknown condition: a.) digital software (BA-M386A-BA) WPS-8/DECMATE V2 BIN MATH RX2 b.) digital software (BA-M471A-BA) WPS-8/DECMATE V2 BIN SORT RX2 c.) digital software (BA-M470A-BA) WPS-8/DECMATE V2 BIN COMM RX2 d.) digital software (BA-M469A-BA) WPS-8/DECMATE V2 BIN LIST RX2 e.) digital software (BA-M387A-BA) WPS-8/DECMATE V2 BIN BASE RX2 f.) digital software (BA-S968B-MA) ALVTAB0 DECMATE SYSTEM TEST REPLACES: AS-S463A-MA g.) hand labeled intel "SA/FT/FMS Priam Interface, SMD Interface for updated byte/serial PCB's" h.) hand labeled dysan "Backup of Priam test programs" The box is one of those that can be attached to others of the same type. Manual and labels for box included. Whoo-hoo. Is #3 enough to get a decmate runnin? Make me an offer. Random old Sun bits preferred, cash accepted. Thanks, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 15 04:07:35 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: random bits need new home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 May 1998, Paul E Coad wrote: > 2.) Apple II Apple Logo. Includes box, disk, and 2 manuals ("Introduction > to Programming through Turtle Graphics" and "Reference Manual"). Cool. Do you have the Terrapin Turtle too? (Am I misspelling the name of that cool turtle-robot with a pen in its butt? I can't find a single reference to it on the web.) -- Doug From andy at topaz.kiev.ua Fri May 15 04:01:24 1998 From: andy at topaz.kiev.ua (Andy Kovtoon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Soviet programmable calculators: anybody interested? Message-ID: <199805150901.MAA29647@shark.topaz.kiev.ua> Hi, all! I'm kinda novice around here... So can't get at once if the topic will be interesting to you chaps. In my school days I used to work with programmable calculators (Soviet ones - .ua was part of SU that days). So if smb finds the topic interesting I can try to recollect all I know about 'em and post right to the group. And I can assume they could be called classic 'cause the last model of this "Elektronika MK" series was issued ~11 years ago. So, if find it worth typing please mail me to andy@topaz.kiev.ua -andy From bwit at pobox.com Fri May 15 06:32:31 1998 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Windoze 3.0 Message-ID: <01BD7FCB.3FD42BC0@ppp-151-164-39-81.rcsntx.swbell.net> Russ, If you get more than one person interested, I believe I can get a couple copies of Win 3.0 for folks. Regards, Bob ---------- From: Russ Blakeman[SMTP:rhblake@bbtel.com] Sent: Thursday, May 14, 1998 3:51 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Windoze 3.0 I have a new copy of Windows 3.0 for sale. It's never been used but the shrink is off of the outer box but the manual is still wrapped and the disks untouched. It comes with 1.2m 5.25" fl;oppies but if someone wants this and needs a set of 1.44m 3.5" disks I can make those and add them to it. I need $15 for it with only the 5.25" disks, mailed to anywhere in the 48 continental states. Add $2.50 (17.50 total) if you wish a set of 1.44m 3.5" disks included (copies from the 1.2's) to cover the floppies and the little extra weight. I have only the one copy so first come first served. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Marty at itgonline.com Fri May 15 07:22:38 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: test Message-ID: <1998May15.082023.1767.103513@smtp.itgonline.com> For the first time since I subscribed to this list there were no messages from last night. Hmmmm. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 15 07:41:54 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980515074154.3a0f92bc@intellistar.net> At 10:20 PM 5/14/98 -0700, you wrote: > >>> Compaq Portable: $100 Pfeh. $15 >I'd get one for <$15, but I've yet to see one that cheap. Cheapest so far >is $50. Wish you were here. There's six of them sitting in a trift store. They're ASKING $5 each. Joe From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Fri May 15 08:16:39 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: web site - emulators and info Message-ID: Hi all, For those that care, I just found an interesting web site at http://www.arrgh.demon.co.uk/home.html; quite a bit of info on all the popular old 8-bit machines of the early 80's, plus where to get emulators for these machines from, articles about popular computing characters of the time, etc... have fun, Jules From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri May 15 08:24:22 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Slacker redemption time Message-ID: <19980515132422.25386.qmail@hotmail.com> Uh-huh. It's time to move out of my apartment. Is the HP 3000 any good (in terms of how interesting it is)? >Okay, for all you so-called collectors who have been lax in filling your >homes to the rafters with unloved digitalia, here's your big opportunity >to start catching up with me: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=14015888 > >-- >mor@crl.com >http://www.crl.com/~mor/ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri May 15 08:28:02 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: random bits need new home Message-ID: <19980515132802.29419.qmail@hotmail.com> Yes, that's all a decmate needs, though I haven't seen one with an 8" drive. I have the manuals and 5.25" diskettes of WPS, as well as a couple of other random DEC 5.25" disks (MS Windows 1.0 for VAXmate and something else). I ought to download RX8 (or whatever the OS is called) and try it on my DECMate. > >1.) Apple II ProDOS User's Kit. Complete in box. (Includes disk, manuals, > packing list, foam, and other exciting artifacts.) > >2.) Apple II Apple Logo. Includes box, disk, and 2 manuals ("Introduction > to Programming through Turtle Graphics" and "Reference Manual"). > >3.) Box of 8 inch floppies unknown condition: > a.) digital software (BA-M386A-BA) WPS-8/DECMATE V2 BIN MATH RX2 > b.) digital software (BA-M471A-BA) WPS-8/DECMATE V2 BIN SORT RX2 > c.) digital software (BA-M470A-BA) WPS-8/DECMATE V2 BIN COMM RX2 > d.) digital software (BA-M469A-BA) WPS-8/DECMATE V2 BIN LIST RX2 > e.) digital software (BA-M387A-BA) WPS-8/DECMATE V2 BIN BASE RX2 > f.) digital software (BA-S968B-MA) ALVTAB0 DECMATE SYSTEM TEST > REPLACES: AS-S463A-MA > g.) hand labeled intel "SA/FT/FMS Priam Interface, SMD Interface > for updated byte/serial PCB's" > h.) hand labeled dysan "Backup of Priam test programs" > > The box is one of those that can be attached to others of the same > type. Manual and labels for box included. Whoo-hoo. > >Is #3 enough to get a decmate runnin? > >Make me an offer. Random old Sun bits preferred, cash accepted. > >Thanks, > >--pec >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri May 15 08:32:53 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity Message-ID: <19980515133253.6498.qmail@hotmail.com> Ditto. I'm somewhat surprised that you can't find anything cheap. In the WantAds, which generally sell Commodore 128s for $300, the Compaq portables go for $10 a piece. >> >>>> Compaq Portable: $100 Pfeh. $15 >>I'd get one for <$15, but I've yet to see one that cheap. Cheapest so far >>is $50. > > Wish you were here. There's six of them sitting in a trift store. They're >ASKING $5 each. > > Joe > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri May 15 09:10:26 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Windoze 3.0 References: <01BD7FCB.3FD42BC0@ppp-151-164-39-81.rcsntx.swbell.net> Message-ID: <355C4CD2.9166358D@bbtel.com> Bob Withers wrote: > If you get more than one person interested, I believe I can get a couple copies of Win 3.0 for folks. Once I get a firm buyer on the copy I have I'll refer further inquiries to you. Appreciate it. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From cfandt at servtech.com Fri May 15 09:07:15 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: References: <199805141843.NAA02708@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <199805151413.OAA15974@cyber2.servtech.com> At 01:29 15-05-98 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 14 May 98 at 15:24, Allison J Parent wrote: >> > It interests me why some one wants a particular machine especially >> > since you do not seem to know much about it. >> >> Well, I can't speak for the person you were replying to, but in my >> case I'm often interested in machines I know little to nothing about >> because I'm interested in learning about them. Although you can >> learn a lot without one, it can help if you have one to explore. > >Hmmmm... I've often accepted and/or rescued machines that I know nothing >about, and then found out about them by looking at the insides, playing >with them, getting the tech manual and reading that, etc. And I'll agree >that having the actual machine is a lot better than just reading the Fine >Manual. Exactly! I've rescued two of the past business computers from my company before being dumpstered. First, in 1991, was a 1982-vintage Hewlett Packard HP250/30 of which I only knew a tiny bit but have learned a bunch since. This was by simply tearing it apart, studying it, cleaning out much dust and junk as part of my restoration, reassembling and firing it up. No documentation whatsoever except for a small Command Reference Guide found in a desk drawer. I have a stack of hand-drawn schematics of the CPU board and parts of other boards plus part of the address map, etc. just from spending time at it. Next in May, 1997 I got a 1987-vintage IBM 9370 which is still a work in progress as we've been very busy with buying and moving into a new house. At least I have all the documents except for the OS manuals which a third party software support vendor kept. From those docs and from tinkering with the hardware I have learned a respectable amount but have more to go yet. Would like to find IBM CE docs on this machine and the HP. > >But, what is curious here is that somebody has asked for a particular >machine _by name_, and doesn't seem to know that much about it. Odd... Well, I am looking for a decent DEC PDP-series machine though I don't know (yet!) a lot about them. I've programmed a couple of DEC machines in assembler and Pascal during various studies at the local college. That is somewhat important to be a little prepared but it doesn't amount to much because I have had virtually no hands-on hardware fun yet. Now I want to get one to preserve and actually learn more upon. I've not asked here on the list yet for one that's available, but someday within the next year or so I will ask if one doesn't show up nearby to me beforehand. My curiosity at wanting to learn how things work, such as what I've reported above, has served me very well. I would not have the engineering job such as I have now nor the activity I have in the antique radio collecting hobby if I was not so interested. Life would be a whole heap more boring IMO. > >> David Williams - Computer Packrat > >-tony --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 15 09:27:06 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Computer Values In-Reply-To: References: <355BB476.56756898@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980515092706.00add4b0@pc> At 11:03 PM 5/14/98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote: > >eBay and other online auctions are probably the best gauges of prices >there are, because they represent fairly efficient markets. In fact, some >online auctions that move their own inventory do regression analysis that >tells them more or less what price they can expect to get for any given item. These net auctions cause a great deal of thought in my brain, which is driven by a pure-gold capitalist heart. At first I thought they'd be a great place to pick up bargains on trailing-edge contemporary PC and consumer stuff, but whoa... look at those prices! Sure, they start at $9.00, but you can watch them zoom right up to conventional Best Buy or CDW retail prices *or more*. The question "Yeah, but who pays retail?" is answered "Lots, and many pay more." Someone did their homework when they developed this online auction concept. Or perhaps it exposed its true nature once someone implemented it, and let the market drive it. (Although I wonder if we don't know important details such as the rate at which the auction house successfully collects its percent, or whether auctions have been rigged by shills working for the seller, etc.) So when the historical computer sells for what we (the dumpster-diving cheapskates) see as inflated prices, we may instead me seeing the evolution of a "retail" price for our old junk, and perhaps the anecdotal reports can provide a "dealer" or "wholesale" price, or at least provide the mean. We grimy collectors know that much computer equipment is tossed in the trash, fed to scrap collectors, or is still sitting in warehouse corners. That alone fuels a desire to pick up collectibles for no cost. Just yesterday I introduced myself to a local junk dealer. I missed some kind of mainframe from a local business by a month... but now he knows he can sell me junk for higher than the scrap value, so perhaps he'll remember me for next time. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From aaron at wfi-inc.com Fri May 15 10:55:56 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: <199805151413.OAA15974@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-ID: > >> > It interests me why some one wants a particular machine especially > >> > since you do not seem to know much about it. Agreed with the previous gentlemen. My latest blind rescue was that 68020 Cadnetix system, where the company went under 10 years ago and every technical document on it seems to have ended up in a Colorado landfill. I finally tracked down one of the original engineers (from on-line resumes, of all things) to get some info on it. Granted, it's still dead (and from what I've learned, probably will stay that way forever) but I'll be damned if I didn't learn quite a lot from it. As for wanting a specific machine, I have spent my entire life lusting after machines that I have never even seen in person, let alone had detailed hardware experience with! What is it that really makes us want these machines, anyway? Not to say that these machines are useless, but nobody collects classic computers because of their amazing processor speed or mammoth memories. It's a much more rounded aesthetic, having to do with colours, shapes, sounds, etc. I could easily *see* a computer that *looks* interesting and ask for one by name, without even knowing where the power switch is. That's the whole fun of it. Aaron From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 15 09:58:47 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Message-ID: <199805151458.AA01785@world.std.com> Message-ID: For the record there were no replies to this query (Looking to find an OSI C8). Is this a truly lost machine? How sad! Should have bought that machine in Medford Oregon when I had the chance. George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Wed, 13 May 1998, George Rachor wrote: > Over the years I had my eye out looking to aquire Ohio Scientific > Challengers. > > I've been lucky enough to get a C2-4p and the late edition C4 but have > been puzzled by not finding any of the 8P's (old/blue or newer/white) > machines. > > Anyone seen an 8P in the last year or so? > > George Rachor > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > > From dastar at wco.com Fri May 15 11:46:59 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:54 2005 Subject: Intel 4004 architecture Message-ID: I'm sure there are at least a couple of g00r00's on this list who can provide the information I seek. I'm interested in finding out all about the Intel 4004 which, if history is recorded corrrectly, was the world's first microprocessor. Was the 4004 chip itslef a microprocessor? Did it require support chips to actually make it functional? I recall that the 4004 was a part of a chip set upon which you could build applications. Was the 4004 a serial or parallel architecture? Lastly, and most importantly, is their a resource for information on the 4004 that someone off-hand knows exists on the web? Thanks! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From cpuviani at IConNet.COM Fri May 15 11:54:34 1998 From: cpuviani at IConNet.COM (Claudio Puviani) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Remove References: Message-ID: <355C7349.8E4788E0@icon.com> > Remove From lgroebe at insidermarketing.com Fri May 15 12:02:42 1998 From: lgroebe at insidermarketing.com (Larry Groebe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Intel 4004 architecture Message-ID: <19980515115716.254833d7.in@insidermarketing.com> > >I'm sure there are at least a couple of g00r00's on this list who can >provide the information I seek. > >SNIP >Lastly, and most importantly, is their a resource for information on the >4004 that someone off-hand knows exists on the web? > >Thanks! > > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com TRY THIS LINK, FOR STARTERS.... http://home1.gte.net/ccourson/4004.htm --Larry From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 15 14:14:04 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Intel 4004 architecture Message-ID: <199805151914.AA25431@world.std.com> As a teen, I remember scavenging 7400-ish chips and whacking them along the edge to split the ceramic to expose the silicon die, then examining them under a microscope. With that experience in mind, I've saved a number of chips from junked equipment over the years. Has anyone else out there assembled a microscopic chip collection? I've thought about removing the dies from the chips (hmm, might be tough because they're so fragile) and mounting them on slides. Sam's message about the 4004 made me think about this. Coulson suggested a good way to get a 4004 would be to find one in an old cash register. I checked the net for sites for cash register repair companies, and sent a few e-mails, but none had spare 4004s. It would be fun and almost educational to outsiders to have a series of slides showing the evolution of the common Intel chipset, or memory chips. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri May 15 15:02:08 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Microscopic Computer Collection? Message-ID: <19980515200209.18459.qmail@hotmail.com> I remember smashing chips. Was pretty difficult, actually. I tortured memory chips. I think this might be a good idea. I can imagine a fairly large market for this, if you're into that sort of thing. THe only problem is: how many 4004s are left, not counting the ones on Voyager? How many were made? >them along the edge to split the ceramic to expose the silicon die, >then examining them under a microscope. With that experience in >mind, I've saved a number of chips from junked equipment over the years. > >Has anyone else out there assembled a microscopic chip collection? >I've thought about removing the dies from the chips (hmm, might >be tough because they're so fragile) and mounting them on slides. > >Sam's message about the 4004 made me think about this. Coulson >suggested a good way to get a 4004 would be to find one in an old >cash register. I checked the net for sites for cash register >repair companies, and sent a few e-mails, but none had spare 4004s. > >It would be fun and almost educational to outsiders to have a >series of slides showing the evolution of the common Intel chipset, >or memory chips. > >- John >Jefferson Computer Museum > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dastar at wco.com Fri May 15 15:04:32 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Microscopic Computer Collection? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980515143310.00bedd40@pc> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 May 1998, John Foust wrote: > Sam's message about the 4004 made me think about this. Coulson > suggested a good way to get a 4004 would be to find one in an old > cash register. I checked the net for sites for cash register > repair companies, and sent a few e-mails, but none had spare 4004s. > > It would be fun and almost educational to outsiders to have a > series of slides showing the evolution of the common Intel chipset, > or memory chips. Some of the sites I found in the web have photos of the 4004 die. I don't have the specific pages off-hand but if you go to AltaVista (www.altavista.digital.com) and do a search on "Intel 4004" you'll run into it within the first 5 or so hits. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 15 15:32:46 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Microscopic Computer Collection? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980515143310.00bedd40@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980515153246.00bf0490@pc> At 01:04 PM 5/15/98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: >Some of the sites I found in the web have photos of the 4004 die. I don't >have the specific pages off-hand but if you go to AltaVista >(www.altavista.digital.com) and do a search on "Intel 4004" you'll run >into it within the first 5 or so hits. Yes, there's an image of the 4004 die on Coulson's site. But if collecting classic computers was only about finding GIFs on the web, we'd all have pretty big collections, wouldn't we? :-) Sad to say, but I'd like to get two 4004s - one to smash, one to keep as-is. I get the impression they're considerably less rare than many of the computers we collect, having been used in more popular computerized devices. For that matter, I'd like to get more rejected silicon dies. I have one three-inch wafer containing an HP CPU from the early 80s, and I lusted at the eight-inch wafers I saw at a friend's office. Anyone know anyone at a foundry? Or do they religiously recycle the silicon after it's been contaminated with circuitry? - John Jefferson Computer Museum From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 15 15:40:23 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Soviet programmable calculators: anybody interested? In-Reply-To: <199805150901.MAA29647@shark.topaz.kiev.ua> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 May 1998, Andy Kovtoon wrote: > In my school days I used to work with programmable calculators (Soviet ones > - .ua was part of SU that days). So if smb finds the topic interesting I can > try to recollect all I know about 'em and post right to the group. And I can > assume they could be called classic 'cause the last model of this > "Elektronika MK" series was issued ~11 years ago. Andrew Davie, who used to be on this list, has a page dedicated to Soviet calcs: http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html -- Doug From manney at lrbcg.com Fri May 15 15:52:36 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity Message-ID: <01bd8043$64581420$3928a2ce@laptop> Anyone interested in a Head Start Explorer? (Laptop -- sorta -- XT w/HDD, needs CGA monitor). - HDD OK, has a virus - Broken backsoace key, some others feel funny (stuck) - Broken on/off switch, needs to be pushed in with pen manney@lrbcg.com "Un sot trouve toujours un plus sot qui l'admire." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 15 18:28:53 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: <199805150232.AA20532@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at May 14, 98 10:32:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1077 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980516/f59562b5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 15 18:35:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: from "John Rollins" at May 14, 98 10:20:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1265 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980516/5455f66c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 15 18:52:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: <199805151413.OAA15974@cyber2.servtech.com> from "Christian Fandt" at May 15, 98 10:07:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2935 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980516/65a453a7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 15 19:00:35 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at May 15, 98 08:55:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1877 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980516/23106a91/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri May 15 20:18:44 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Microscopic Computer Collection? Message-ID: <19980516011844.11200.qmail@hotmail.com> Noone really cares about used-up silicon. My uncle works at a major company that builds semiconductor factories (A meta-semiconductor factory?), the name of whic escapes me. It is the major one, though. Anyway, he has an bad wafer, of Pentium chips. By the way, is it theoretically possible to make an IC with only a prototype IC and an arbitrary amount of machinery? >>into it within the first 5 or so hits. > >Yes, there's an image of the 4004 die on Coulson's site. But if >collecting classic computers was only about finding GIFs on the >web, we'd all have pretty big collections, wouldn't we? :-) > >Sad to say, but I'd like to get two 4004s - one to smash, one to >keep as-is. I get the impression they're considerably less rare >than many of the computers we collect, having been used in more >popular computerized devices. > >For that matter, I'd like to get more rejected silicon dies. >I have one three-inch wafer containing an HP CPU from the early >80s, and I lusted at the eight-inch wafers I saw at a friend's >office. Anyone know anyone at a foundry? Or do they religiously >recycle the silicon after it's been contaminated with circuitry? > >- John >Jefferson Computer Museum > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri May 15 20:22:54 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity Message-ID: <19980516012254.5498.qmail@hotmail.com> The only problem I have with my rather conventional equipment in terms of RFI is when my monitor changes modes, and I am using an AM receiver right next to it. The sound flickers a bit. I would think that the home computers and games systems like C64, PCjr, etc. couldn't put out too much RFI, since they used TVs for monitors... > >Maybe that's why the 5150 is more desirable :-). After all, you can >always fix those given the techref - no custom chips, full schematics, >etc. No problem... > >> Now to add something new to the list... What are the best/worst for RFI? > >Well, my old Tandy model 1 radiates a bit. > >I would think some of the old DEC backplanes with no metal screening at >all (like the RK11-C and DX11, and even machines in the BA11-F, like the >PDP11/45) would not be trivial to get through EMC tests. I've never had >problems running any of my machines with normal broadcast radio/TV in >adjacent rooms, so it's not a big problem in that sense, but it may be a >pain for amateur/SWL work. > >Worst problem I know is that the harmonics of both the TV line scan and >the VGA line scan are close enough to our standard time service (Rugby >MSF on 60kHz) to totally swamp the RF stage of any such receiver. I >generally have to put the aerial/RF stage in another room at least. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 15 20:39:38 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 16 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > True... Especially at radio rallies where you see something odd and pay a > few pounds/dollars to take it home. No idea what it actually is - it's > just interesting... Just last week, I picked up a "Quorum A160" at a thrift. I couldn't tell what it was. It had a small numeric keypad, but also had the letter "F" on the keypad. It had a microphone input. An answering machine? No telephone jack, but it did have a funky DIN connector. I took it home, and powered it up. Recorded my voice, played it back. Cool. Punched some buttons, and left it on the counter for a while. Opened the front door to the house, and suddenly "WAHHHHHHHHH!". Turned out it was an alarm system that was activated by presure changes like a door or window opening. Pretty loud too. I'm glad I didn't find the model with the anti-personnel mine option attached. -- Doug From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri May 15 21:13:10 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity Message-ID: <75006982.355cf637@aol.com> In a message dated 98-05-15 21:07:04 EDT, you write: << > Now to add something new to the list... What are the best/worst for RFI? >> I had an apple ][+ which caused major tv interference. my particular apple had a revision 6 motherboard i believe. later models had a different board and had some metal shielding on the inside. earlier models had no provisions for it. david From tomowad at earthlink.net Fri May 15 22:06:24 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Computer Values Message-ID: <199805160306.UAA01923@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >I used to collect coins when I was a kid, and the Blue Book (wholesale >values) and Red Book (retail values) were my bibles. Coins had a pretty >good grading system, and you could find fairly reliable production data. >I don't know of anybody that has tried to do anything close to this for >computers. I have "A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators" by Dr. Thomas F. Haddock that attempts to price old computers. They don't do a very good job, though. According to the book, an Apple IIc is worth $200 - $400 and a Lisa 1 is worth $50 - $150. To be fair, though, the book is from 1993. Anybody know of anything more recent? Tom Owad From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri May 15 22:22:34 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Computer Values In-Reply-To: <199805160306.UAA01923@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980515222234.006c5d1c@pop3.concentric.net> There used to be a Blue book for used computers, monitors, printers and such I think last one printed was in 1991 or 1992. My copies are in storage in Houston I purchased one every year starting around 1987. I wish someone would start another one. At 08:06 PM 5/15/98 -0700, you wrote: >>I used to collect coins when I was a kid, and the Blue Book (wholesale >>values) and Red Book (retail values) were my bibles. Coins had a pretty >>good grading system, and you could find fairly reliable production data. >>I don't know of anybody that has tried to do anything close to this for >>computers. > >I have "A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators" >by Dr. Thomas F. Haddock that attempts to price old computers. They >don't do a very good job, though. According to the book, an Apple IIc is >worth $200 - $400 and a Lisa 1 is worth $50 - $150. To be fair, though, >the book is from 1993. Anybody know of anything more recent? > >Tom Owad > > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 15 22:52:51 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Message-ID: <199805160352.AA21324@world.std.com> <[NS* terminal .vs. video board] < Message-ID: On Fri, 15 May 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > <[NS* terminal .vs. video board] > < > > There was exactly that, two serial ports, a hearbeat interrupt and a > parallel port. In the 78-81 time frame, most video cards were 64char > and only some had decenders. Terminals onthe other hand were 80char, > full upper/lowercase and generally required less software than a memory > mapped display. > > > Most s100 crates could be...even a SOL could ahve more than one! > > > After working with the Altairs noisy bus and toggling boot loaders > it was a pleasure to see good signals and boot on reset. The IMSAI > was a better machine than altair but when I moved up I really didn't want > a front pannel and I needed more serial IO, the NS* box, CPU and the MDS I > had in the altair solved most of my problems. > > CCS, compupro, altos, Vector and a few others had S100 boxen that were > equal or better (compupro was really good!). Altos, Allison? All of the ones that I have ever seen were essentially single board computers. - don From rexstout at uswest.net Fri May 15 23:17:51 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity In-Reply-To: <19980516012254.5498.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >The only problem I have with my rather conventional equipment in terms >of RFI is when my monitor changes modes, and I am using an AM >receiver right next to it. The sound flickers a bit. I would think >that the home computers and games systems like C64, PCjr, etc. >couldn't put out too much RFI, since they used TVs for monitors... Hehe... The Apple 15AV monitor I have here on my PowerMac is fun to listen to on the scanner when it starts up, before it gets around to changing to the 1024x768@75Hz setting I normally use... Wow! The other multisync monitor just causes a very strong AC hum in both receive and transmit. More than you can get away with... I'm going to try building a screen cage for the comp/monitor as soon as I finish with the RFI testing. -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From desieh at southcom.com.au Sat May 16 01:09:12 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity Message-ID: <002c01bd8091$26c99400$0f01a8c0@ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, 16 May 1998 11:08 Subject: Re: Another EBay absurdity >> >> IBM PC model 5150: $100 Please. Hundreds of thousands made. Free. >> Laugh it into the ground... Free is the only price. And if that's not good >> enough, I recently picked up a Compaq 386/20 with multisync VGA monitor for >> free...Too bad I can't get the &^$&$(@$%#& 3.5" floppy to work. > >Maybe that's why the 5150 is more desirable :-). After all, you can >always fix those given the techref - no custom chips, full schematics, >etc. No problem... > >> Now to add something new to the list... What are the best/worst for RFI? > >Well, my old Tandy model 1 radiates a bit. > >I would think some of the old DEC backplanes with no metal screening at >all (like the RK11-C and DX11, and even machines in the BA11-F, like the >PDP11/45) would not be trivial to get through EMC tests. I've never had >problems running any of my machines with normal broadcast radio/TV in >adjacent rooms, so it's not a big problem in that sense, but it may be a >pain for amateur/SWL work. > >Worst problem I know is that the harmonics of both the TV line scan and >the VGA line scan are close enough to our standard time service (Rugby >MSF on 60kHz) to totally swamp the RF stage of any such receiver. I >generally have to put the aerial/RF stage in another room at least. > >-tony > heh well on a more moden note my IBM monitor is terible for RF floating around when the monitor kicks in it makes all lights and other computers in the room flicker.... oh yeah it dosent like to be in the room with any other computers ether or thie IBM monitor will start to play up as well....... Oh well......I suppose IBM dosent like to other too many of these mechines around...... From desieh at southcom.com.au Sat May 16 01:24:33 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Message-ID: <007501bd8093$4b58caa0$0f01a8c0@ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, 16 May 1998 11:10 Subject: Re: North Star Horizon >> Agreed with the previous gentlemen. My latest blind rescue was that 68020 >> Cadnetix system, where the company went under 10 years ago and every >> technical document on it seems to have ended up in a Colorado landfill. I >> finally tracked down one of the original engineers (from on-line resumes, >> of all things) to get some info on it. Granted, it's still dead (and from >> what I've learned, probably will stay that way forever) but I'll be damned > >Don't say that ! Somehow it can be got to work again. It'll take time, >but it would certainly be interesting. > >> if I didn't learn quite a lot from it. As for wanting a specific machine, >> I have spent my entire life lusting after machines that I have never even >> seen in person, let alone had detailed hardware experience with! What is > >Yes, but presumably you had reasons for wanting these machines, other >than 'I want an Altair, they're cool' > >> it that really makes us want these machines, anyway? Not to say that these >> machines are useless, but nobody collects classic computers because of >> their amazing processor speed or mammoth memories. It's a much more > >Well, I particularly like machines with features that are not found on >more modern stuff - toggle-switch panels, demountable hard disks, vector >graphic displays, writeable microcode, etc. > >> rounded aesthetic, having to do with colours, shapes, sounds, etc. I could > >I've said it before - I really couldn't care what a machine looks like. The >circuit diagrams are the interesting thing for me. > >> easily *see* a computer that *looks* interesting and ask for one by name, >> without even knowing where the power switch is. That's the whole fun of >> it. > >True... Especially at radio rallies where you see something odd and pay a >few pounds/dollars to take it home. No idea what it actually is - it's >just interesting... > >> >> >> Aaron >> >> > >-tony email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm I have own a NorthStar Horizon very nice little computer abit heavy, mines in the wooden box and has a pair of 5 1/4" floppy drives in the front and yes it runs off an terminal..... mine even has full docs and the origianl receipt of purchates from around 1976..... many of the cards inside it arom from an Altair if my memory is correct... A VDM -1? i think thats whats its called...anyway in the manual for this video card it has the source code for the programmng code for a Altair and IMSAl mechines.... only around 30,000 of these fine mechines where ever built so i would say that they are very rare these days.... > From pcoad at wco.com Sat May 16 01:41:27 1998 From: pcoad at wco.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: random bits need new home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 May 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Fri, 15 May 1998, Paul E Coad wrote: > > > 2.) Apple II Apple Logo. Includes box, disk, and 2 manuals ("Introduction > > to Programming through Turtle Graphics" and "Reference Manual"). > > Cool. Do you have the Terrapin Turtle too? (Am I misspelling the name of > that cool turtle-robot with a pen in its butt? I can't find a single > reference to it on the web.) > Unfortunately no. If I had one of those I would keep the package for myself and get a II with which to play around with it. A quick look through the manuals turned up only this from Chapter 3: This section introduces you to programming by learning to control a computer creature known as a turtle. The first Logo turtle was a robot; it looked like a big cannister and moved about on wheels. It was attached to a computer by a long cable and could draw lines on the floor, which normally was covered with paper. Our turtle, however, lives on the computer screen. It also has a pen and can write with it on the screen..." --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 16 08:22:21 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Message-ID: <199805161322.AA12138@world.std.com> <> CCS, compupro, altos, Vector and a few others had S100 boxen that were <> equal or better (compupro was really good!). < At 04:22 PM 5/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >Anyone heard of such a beast. It's a rather large "laptop" with a scrunched lcd >display. Has two half height 5 1/4 floppies. From the keyboard it looks like a >pc clone, but it also has a db25 terminal out port on the back. Yep. Got one. It is a semi-compatible PC, iirc. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sat May 16 13:36:23 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980513193853.33e753c2@ricochet.net> At 09:25 PM 5/13/98 -0400, you wrote: >last Friday May 8th -- coincidentally the 10th anniversary of the >death of Robert A. Heinlein {who wrote about the most _likeable_ Ummm... hate to be nit-picky, but RAH passed on while I was working with Aetna, about 5? years ago... I remember; I cried. (Jerry Garcia was when I was at Longs, the first time around.) From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sat May 16 13:36:27 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980514112949.33e7b424@ricochet.net> At 09:26 PM 5/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >The problem with introducing elementary and middle school kids to >computers so early is that they either a) know more than the lab admin, or >b) aren't allowed to use them in any constructive way. I'm only in the >tenth grade, but I've already seen seven new labs installed in area schools. >The school districts almost ALWAYS spend WAY too much on new computers, The problem there isn't that computers are a waste of money; it's that the educators aren't knowledgeable enough to know how to put them to use. It would be better to buy a few less computers and send the teachers to a course on how to integrate computers into their curriculum. My girlfriend does a wonderful job of putting computers to work. So does the rest of her school. But she has an advantage; not only did she grow up/lives in SF (where computers are overly prevalent) but she has me for a boyfriend, one brother is a successful programmer/sysadmin, and the other one is going to school for the same. She has spread herknowledge/skills to the rest of the school. >aren't used until high school, when word processing/database, programming, A shame and a waste. >and other such courses are offered. Anything before is mainly a waste of >money. Not true. Computers without training (as in ANY industry) are a waste of time. Computers in the hands of educators who nkow what they're doing is an incredibly powerful tool. >What about the 'net? I don't understand why people think that the >internet is such a great "tool" that will help schools. Just do a search >for "barbie" on Yahoo. Or, for that matter, try "video" or something The 'net is a tool for communication, excellent at bringing together people of disparate backgrounds. Just as we're doing here. I've a friend who's on his way back from South Africa; when he gets back, he and Rachel are going to get together to see about getting kids there talking with kids here. It is also an excellent reference. Sure, putting a single word into Yahoo's search engine will get you all kinds of (irrelevant) hits, but something like AltaVista's search syntax is incredible, if you know how to use it, and it does promote thinking about your problem/goal to come up with the keywords that will return the most relevant hits. >In other words, most of the money spent on computer equipment is a waste. Well, send 'em out here to Garden Village Elementary in Daly City. They'll put 'em to use. From gram at cnct.com Sat May 16 15:15:17 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS References: <3.0.16.19980513193853.33e753c2@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <355DF3D5.B72EE0CC@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 09:25 PM 5/13/98 -0400, you wrote: > >last Friday May 8th -- coincidentally the 10th anniversary of the > >death of Robert A. Heinlein {who wrote about the most _likeable_ > > Ummm... hate to be nit-picky, but RAH passed on while I was working with > Aetna, about 5? years ago... I remember; I cried. (Jerry Garcia was when > I was at Longs, the first time around.) May 8th, 1988. I did my drinking at The Barrel in Sherman Oaks -- there may be surviving witnesses besides Rosanne Barr. I was not at my best. (My wife is a Deadhead -- I always thought the music would have been better if Jerry learned a third chord). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 16 09:48:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: <007501bd8093$4b58caa0$0f01a8c0@ibm> from "Desie Hay" at May 16, 98 04:24:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1197 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980516/994d4d61/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 16 09:35:38 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: <199805160352.AA21324@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at May 15, 98 11:52:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1371 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980516/5b3ae36a/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Sat May 16 16:07:37 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: <007501bd8093$4b58caa0$0f01a8c0@ibm> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 May 1998, Desie Hay wrote: > many of the cards inside it arom from an Altair if my memory is correct... > A VDM -1? i think thats whats its called...anyway in the manual for this VDM-1 is a Processor Technology board. > video card it has the source code for the programmng code for a Altair and > IMSAl mechines.... > only around 30,000 of these fine mechines where ever built so i would say > that they are very rare these days.... Let's not throw around the word "rare" so easily. 30,000 is a lot of machines. Many people on this list have one or more Horizons (I have two myself). They are uncommon for sure, but I wouldn't consider them "very rare". Over time they will become "rare", but as of now they don't yet qualify. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From william at ans.net Sat May 16 16:45:59 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > only around 30,000 of these fine mechines where ever built so i would say > > that they are very rare these days.... Gee, if only there were 30,000 IBM 709s made... Rare? I do not think so. I tend to use the following condition to label something as rare: If there is a machine that I am actively looking for, and I have a pile of money to spend, yet I forsee a search that will last _at_least_ a couple of years, the machine is rare. Examples (of significant machines, anyway): Any pre-S/370 IBM big iron, Apple 1s (you knew that), any pre-KS DEC 36 bitters, Interdatas, Lisa 1s with Twiggies, Sun-1s, pre-AGS Ciscos, etc. * Note that I do not consider IMSAIs and Altairs all that rare. Why? Because I am sure I could get one in a manner of a few months, just I might have to drop a four figure sum to do it. My reasoning is based on some of my experiences with finding the old junk - there is just an enormous amount of it out there, waiting to be found! And yes, in the 1960s and 70s, when some of the really cool old stuff was being taken out of commision, there were people just like us that dragged the stuff home from work - that is how things like a PDP-1 gets found in a barn in Kansas (I think Kansas, I will have to look that up). * Yes, I know the list is not complete, and I invite anyone to add to it. Wow, that might even qualify as being on-topic! William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at wco.com Sat May 16 17:06:18 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 Manual Set Message-ID: Well, certainly the find of the day was the IBM 5100 manuals. I found them in a crusty used book store in a last-class indoor flea market, buried amongst old binders. I got the "APL Introduction" and "APL Reference Manual" and the "BASIC Introduction" and "BASIC Reference Manual". The BASIC portion is a photocopy of the original but the APL set is the original. By the way, there's a reason why you don't see Microsoft Visual APL these days. What a messed up language! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From yowza at yowza.com Sat May 16 17:45:27 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: reverse-engineering power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pop quiz: you've just found a 1993 prototype laptop that never made it into production. It has a plug for DC input, but you don't have the power source. What do you do? (BTW, it was never meant for production. It's a demo platform for some Headland/LSI chips, but pretty cool nonetheless.) -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 16 18:42:40 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 16, 98 05:45:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1017 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980517/20c4476e/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat May 16 19:45:01 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: reverse-engineering power In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at May 16, 98 05:45:27 pm Message-ID: <9805162345.AA25228@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 714 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980516/de0ec77c/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Sat May 16 18:46:40 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: <199805161322.AA12138@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 May 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > <> CCS, compupro, altos, Vector and a few others had S100 boxen that were > <> equal or better (compupro was really good!). > < > > Don, > > Single board as in s100 or single board as in no bus? The early ones > were SBC s100 though it ws common to put them in a box with more IO, > hard disk or customer unique periperals. Single board as in no bus, Allison. They were typically packaged in a box that suggested S100, but were not. They were about 14"x18" and were usually packaged with the drives and power supply beneath. The Z80 ones that I am thinking of were of the 8000-n series, where n denoted the type of drives installed. All had floppies, either 5.25" or 8", and some had hard drives. - don > There were several single board systems that were s100 bus, SDS, teltek, > macrotec were a few. Some were complete systems on one card others > required FDC or other IO, most could be extended using hard disk > controllers, more IO or multiple processors. > > Allison > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 16 18:48:21 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: reverse-engineering power In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at May 16, 98 05:45:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1394 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980517/ee247ed1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 16 18:52:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: reverse-engineering power In-Reply-To: <9805162345.AA25228@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at May 16, 98 04:45:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 944 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980517/ffdaf1a9/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Sat May 16 20:10:58 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: reverse-engineering power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Describe what the plug looks like (number/configuration of > > the pins), first of all. > > Great minds think alike :-). That's my first question as well. 2 connections > implies an internal regulator, a lot of pins probably means it wants > 'standard computer-like' voltages. OK, Great Minds, there are two pins in the standard center/outer config associated with most wall warts. > > If there's any way to open the box up, look for any obvious rectifiers and > > Are the computers you can't open up? There are few computers easier to open up than this one. Refer to figure 1: http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/oddball/ht35.jpg > > tantalum/elecrolytic capacitors near where the power comes in. This'll give > > a good indication of the polarity and a rough guess at the voltages. > > Also, are there any transformers/large inductors in the PSU, implying a > switching-type regulator ? Any power devices or chips with sane numbers? > You might be able to deduce a lot from that. There seems to be a transformer that helps out with the display voltage, but it's the only thing in the box that's hard to get to. I can tell it's on a PCB labeled P/N 665-0454 (just in case it matches one sitting by you). Here's where software-boy gets in trouble. There's a part near the DC-in that looks like it by be a transistor. The board label is D3 and the part is labeled 1R OE 30WQ0AF (maybe). The center conductor buzzes on the outer two pins of this three-pin device. Also nearby is a 16V 470uF cap, but it's not easy to trace the connections. The center conductor buzzes with what I think is the negative terminal of a tantalum cap on the trace-side of the board. Are those clues enough to nail down the polarity? -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Sat May 16 20:26:14 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: reverse-engineering power References: Message-ID: <355E3CB6.602D8EE7@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > If there's any way to open the box up, look for any obvious rectifiers and > > Are the computers you can't open up? > > Tim. > -tony There are no computers that can't be opened up. There are a few that can be very difficult to put back together without factory equipment. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From desieh at southcom.com.au Sat May 16 20:20:07 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 Manual Set Message-ID: <000801bd8131$f06d08a0$0f01a8c0@ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, 17 May 1998 8:07 Subject: IBM 5100 Manual Set > >Well, certainly the find of the day was the IBM 5100 manuals. I found >them in a crusty used book store in a last-class indoor flea market, >buried amongst old binders. > >I got the "APL Introduction" and "APL Reference Manual" and the "BASIC >Introduction" and "BASIC Reference Manual". The BASIC portion is a >photocopy of the original but the APL set is the original. By the way, >there's a reason why you don't see Microsoft Visual APL these days. What >a messed up language! > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Ever onward. > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 05/11/98] > email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm yeah there is lots of good finds out there if you take the trouble to look for them..... I love digging around at my local 'tip shop' for old computers and books.... From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sat May 16 16:43:31 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: reverse-engineering power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805170140.VAA04034@mail.cgocable.net> Guys and Doug, Did it have the battery at all? Often, I use this charging voltages to make a guess at operating voltage for missing power bricks and that capacitors. That diode could do one of two purposes: one might be for backward polarity by shorting and blow a fuse might be worse or as a mild voltage drop plus backward polarity protection. That capacitor serves to give you the voltage limit by that WV number minus about 20% WV printed on that cap. And that cap could be a clue but we need to be double sure that both legs of that cap is hooked directly to that power jack or one side is via that diode that you ID'ed. Try: first: hook up the voltmeter to the 74xxxx chip for 5v and ground. second: hook up that power jack with right size coaxial plug and to veriable regulated power supply at least 600mA limited third: start at 6V and chank up in 1V steps until it starts to work properly especially for the display's crisp startup lamps. Very common voltages due to the batteries: 8V (for 6V battery), 9V for 7.2V battery, 12V for 9V battery, so on until about @12V max. These voltages are used for rapid charging voltages. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat May 16 21:11:28 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: Rubber keypad repair Message-ID: <19980517021128.6290.qmail@hotmail.com> This is semi-OT, but computers had these too (PDP-11 panel?) These are composed of a sheet of rubber with buttons stamped into it. On the other side of the sheet are black pieces of metal. After a while, these keypads start to wear out, and require more pressure or multiple tries. How can I fix this? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From william at ans.net Sat May 16 21:26:02 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > PDP11/74, Did DEC ever market these, or were they (all four of them, or whatever) just a last ditch effort to save the PDP-11/70 line? > DEC PDP's _other than -8 and -11_ Certainly, although the PDP-12s might be close to being kicked off the "very rare" list. I hesitate to add the KS-10s, as I think there are probably more of them hidden away (or maybe actually doing work!) than we think. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gene at ehrich.com Sat May 16 21:48:06 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 Manual Set In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199805170243.TAA06412@mxu1.u.washington.edu> >I got the "APL Introduction" and "APL Reference Manual" and the "BASIC >Introduction" and "BASIC Reference Manual".? The BASIC portion is a I have a copy of "APL/360 Reference Manual" from 1968 for sale on my web site if anyone is interested.Gene ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.voicenet.com/~generic gene@ehrich.com Gene Ehrich P.O. Box 209 Marlton NJ 08053-0209 ------------------------------------------------------ From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 16 22:10:04 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:55 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Message-ID: <199805170310.AA04636@world.std.com> <> parallel port. In the 78-81 time frame, most video cards were 64char < Truely rare: PDP1/4/5/6/9 Collectively there may have been 3000 total. <> PDP11/74, <

s d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From yowza at yowza.com Wed May 20 00:34:49 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: IMS In-Reply-To: <3562635e.1404994254@smtp.wa.jps.net> Message-ID: The static RAM cards in one of my S-100 boxes is made by IMS (Industrial Micro Systems) from 1977. Is this any relation to IMS Associates who produced the IMSAI, or are they totally unrelated? -- Doug From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed May 20 02:23:55 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: Here we go with Microcode again... In-Reply-To: <13356900208.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <199805200723.RAA09821@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 05:44 AM 19-05-98 -0700, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >Digging thru the VAX 780 manuals... >They have here some crud on how the microcode works. Where it starts and ends, >field definitions, etc. > >I know basically how microcode works. It's the one-cycle instructions like >"gate data bus to address bus" or "gate data bus to ALU". >One MOV can be 2-5 microinstructions. > >The large question I have is: How does the MOV translate to microcode? >Does the VAX figure a microcode offset based on the opcode? Is there a table >of entry points somewhere? How is this done? >Another thing, the VAX 780 was microcoded from the console RX01. Does anyone >have a copy of that RX01? Can anyone get a disk image? What else was on there? >(RT-11? P/OS?) Well, a large stretch away from my office chair reveals (hidden on the top shelf under 10 years or so of dust) three manuals: VAX 11/780 Microprogramming Tools User's Guide AA-H306A-TE VAX 11/780 Data Path Description AA-H307A-TE Micro2 User's Guide Reference Manual AA-H531A-TE These date from the days when some people around here had delusions of grandeur regarding their ability to write microcode programs. A very quick look shows that probably all the answers are in the VAX 11/780 Data Path Description manual. If I didn't have a major planning project to do by yesterday I might spend some time browsing. Hopefully there'll be someone else on the list who has access to the manuals or actual practical experience. >Just being annoying... Never :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Wed May 20 06:08:43 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: Windows 1.x platforms... Message-ID: >>>....I think winders didn't run on >>>the 80186(8) used in one of the tandys and a few oddballs. mostly because >>>the 186 has some on board peripherals (DMA and interrupts) that were not >>>PCclone compatable. >>On the contrary: There was a special version of Windows for the Tandy 2000 >>(80186) and Bill Gates referred to it as "the first computer built >>specifically to run Windows." I think it'd run via the 80186 daughterboards in a BBC Master system too... I'm sure I tried this years ago... (ok, "years" is kinda relative! :) Jules > > > From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Wed May 20 06:16:15 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: Windows 1.x platforms... Message-ID: >>> >> I have a Rainbow 200, but I'm missing the keyboard and mouse, and it >>> >>doesn't >>> >> seem to take a serial console. >>> >>> hmm, don't know about the 200, I've got a 100B machine and the keyboards >> >> I've never heard of a Rainbow 200 either. I've got a couple of 100's here. there used to be a good 'bow ftp site - do you remember what it was? something along the lines of "ftp.ee.ualberta.com" or somthing; tried every variation I could think of but didn't come up with anything... :) seem to remember they had quite a bit of info on memory expansion boards, connecting nonstandard floppies and other such stuff... (one for regular posting to the list maybe? a list of good ftp sites / web sites for various machines... or de we have a regular FAQ anyway?) cheers Jules > > From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Wed May 20 07:33:41 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon [Rare systems] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 16 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Ok, well there's the Codata 3300 (unix box with full height 5.25" drive > built into the case), This would be a 68000-based machine, yes? Runs a UNIX variant called "UNISIS" which supports 10 simultaneous users? Sleek black box? The disk drive is quad density? No I've never met one in real life, but there was a photograph and some details of it in a book I read. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed May 20 07:34:07 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: FW: Rescue Needed in Cambridge, MA In-Reply-To: <3562635e.1404994254@smtp.wa.jps.net> Message-ID: <13357160516.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Decsystem 2065...] Damn! Another 10, and it's WAY OUT OF RANGE! Someone go and get that... ------- From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 20 07:40:08 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: IMS Message-ID: <199805201240.AA05811@world.std.com> >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13839197 > >I'll save the surprise for you who want to check it out (it's a >Commodore Educator 64) > This auction ended. This was the bidding history. Last bid at: $510.00 Last bid at: $500.00 Last bid at: $86.62 Last bid at: $35.00 Last bid at: $25.00 At least two people had a clue. One person just really wanted it, and two must have thought it was made of gold. -- Kirk From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 20 08:33:28 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: Don Tarbell Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980520083328.00b88cc0@pc> >X-POP3-Rcpt: jfoust@threedee >Return-Path: prouse@netcom.industry.net >Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:51:39 -0700 >From: "Paula S. Rouse" >Reply-To: prouse@netcom.industry.net >Organization: Harwil Corporation >To: jfoust@threedee.com >Subject: Don Tarbell > >Dear John, > >My name is Paula Rouse. I worked for the "Famous" Don Tarbell at Tarbell >Electronics in Carson, CA from 1976 to 1983. I was his first employee >when he began selling cassette interface kits and assembled units. He >was a terrific boss and his wife Brenda and I have been best friends for >all these years. She called me this evening to say that Don passed away >this morning, May 19th, 1998, after a long bout with cancer. I was on >the internet tonight, looking for information on old friends who used to >come into the shop, hoping to contact them to let them know of his >passing. When I typed Don's name into Yahoo's search engine, your page >came up. It is not dated, so I do not know when you tried to contact him >by e-mail, but Brenda said that he had not been checking his e-mail but >once every two or three weeks since he had been so sick. That may be the >reason for your not receiving a reply. He was a great guy and he will be >sorely missed. It was so much fun being a part of the early years of >computing. He was instrumental in shaping my career and there are many >good memories of the times spent together. > >Thanks! Paula Rouse, prouse@netcom.industry.net - John Jefferson Computer Museum From bill.sheehan at stoneweb.com Wed May 20 08:36:07 1998 From: bill.sheehan at stoneweb.com (bill.sheehan@stoneweb.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity Message-ID: <8525660A.004A5E48.00@bos_notes1.swec.com> Now take a look at the feedback. You'll find that the two high bidders are bogus. The winning bid was actually the #3 bidder, who would be within his rights to decline the honor. The only way we'll know how much this *really* sold for is to check back in a couple of weeks and see who (if anyone) gets positive feedback from the seller. "kroma" on 05/20/98 08:45:27 AM Please respond to classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" cc: (bcc: Bill Sheehan/Corporate/SWEC) Subject: Re: Another EBay absurdity >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13839197 > >I'll save the surprise for you who want to check it out (it's a >Commodore Educator 64) > This auction ended. This was the bidding history. Last bid at: $510.00 Last bid at: $500.00 Last bid at: $86.62 Last bid at: $35.00 Last bid at: $25.00 At least two people had a clue. One person just really wanted it, and two must have thought it was made of gold. -- Kirk From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 20 09:42:34 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: to Frank ZGE Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980520094234.444f8cba@intellistar.net> "Frank", Send me your real address. I tried to reply to your message but your return address is bogus. Joe From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed May 20 10:00:27 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: Jumper info updste Message-ID: <3562F00B.90459FE8@bbtel.com> I received a message from a person named Robert Bocock today with a PDF attachement of the card I was asking about, and it was exactly what I needed. Thanks to anyone that may have been digging for info for me. It appears the card is made by DFI USA. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From engine at chac.org Wed May 20 10:01:05 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: IMS In-Reply-To: References: <3562635e.1404994254@smtp.wa.jps.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980520080105.00f6eac0@pop.batnet.com> At 00:34 5/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >The static RAM cards in one of my S-100 boxes is made by IMS (Industrial >Micro Systems) from 1977. Is this any relation to IMS Associates who >produced the IMSAI, or are they totally unrelated? Those are unrelated, to each other and to (IIRC) the IMS in Nevada who made whole computers at about the same time. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From adept at Mcs.Net Wed May 20 11:02:50 1998 From: adept at Mcs.Net (The Adept) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: Another EBay absurdity (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:43:27 -0500 (CDT) From: The Adept To: bill.sheehan@stoneweb.com Subject: Re: Another EBay absurdity I've actually talked to the #3 bidder and the item is back up for auction and is currently priced at around 203. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=14365349 Cheers, Dan On Wed, 20 May 1998 bill.sheehan@stoneweb.com wrote: > Now take a look at the feedback. You'll find that the two high bidders are bogus. The winning bid was actually the #3 bidder, who would be within > his rights to decline the honor. The only way we'll know how much this *really* sold for is to check back in a couple of weeks and see who (if > anyone) gets positive feedback from the seller. > > > > > > > > "kroma" on 05/20/98 08:45:27 AM > > Please respond to classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > cc: (bcc: Bill Sheehan/Corporate/SWEC) > Subject: Re: Another EBay absurdity > > > > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13839197 > > > >I'll save the surprise for you who want to check it out (it's a > >Commodore Educator 64) > > > > > This auction ended. This was the bidding history. > > > Last bid at: $510.00 > > Last bid at: $500.00 > > Last bid at: $86.62 > > Last bid at: $35.00 > > Last bid at: $25.00 > > At least two people had a clue. One person just really wanted it, and two > must have thought it was made of gold. > > -- Kirk > > > > > > > > > From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed May 20 13:20:41 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: IBM PC DOS 1.00, anybody??? Message-ID: <19980520182041.15156.qmail@hotmail.com> It would be interesting to see the original QDOS... >Lad, we don't do that here. Copyright situation. Besides, PC-DOS 1.0 >was total crap, you'd want 1.25 to do anything. However, you can step >over to www.caldera.com and pick up the latest DR-DOS (though I liked >things better when they called it OpenDOS), a much better descendent of >CP/M than MS-DOS was. >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed May 20 14:14:51 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: Daniel Meyer Message-ID: <199805201914.PAA26307@capehenry.cs.unc.edu> I just heard that Daniel Meyer, the founder of SwTPC, passed away this past Saturday, May 16th, 1998. Although we never met, he had a positive impact on my life, and on the lives of many others. A moment of silence is in order. Bill. From dcoward at pressstart.com Wed May 20 15:05:12 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <19980520130512.053cc413.in@mail.pressstart.com> Doug Yowza >Oops, I forgot to mention that neither the T1000 nor the T1100 were >Toshiba's first laptop. I don't have one, but I think their first was the >T100, a CP/M laptop from 1982 (not to be confused with the pen-based >T100X or the pentium T100CS). Shouldn't a laptop have a screen? I have two T100s and neither has a built-in display. http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum/mtoshiba.htm And thanks for the infomation on the T1000. ========================================= Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum ========================================= From g at kurico.com Wed May 20 15:54:22 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: Questions, questions Message-ID: A few questions: Recently acquired a Heathkit computer. Looks to be a pc compatable (din keyboard plug, 1/2 height 5 /14, etc). Plate on back says model U 148. Any clues? This is not quite a classic, but almost there. I have a few Mac Portables (the original model 5120). Inside one was a add-on card in the ROM slot (not the RAM expansion). The card has two roms on it labeled: Esprit Rom 1.087" dated 7/14/89. The card itself says Esprit Rom. Anyone know what this could be. The Mac doesn't seem to behave any differently with or without the card. Also, I have another portable that has no identification silkscreened on to the bottom where it would normally be. Could this be some type of prototype, since it looks like it never did have anything printed there (i.e. no one removed it). Totally off-topic. I also just got a Code-A-Phone 700 from Western Electric. It's an old answering machine that uses some sort of funky reel to reel to store messages. I think it was only meant to be used at CO's as it says "not for resale" on the bottom. The power connector is a weird three prong male connector with two cylindrical prongs and one flat prong (the opposite of todays common connector). This unit is from the 70's. Again, any clues? Or any pointers to where (other lists, web sites, books) I might look. And finally, anyone know of a good way to remove the dark brown adhesive left on my the metallic inventory tags used by some companies? I've try rubbing alcohol, wd40, and goo gone. I'm afraid to try anything too strong as it might hurt the case. TIA George From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed May 20 15:59:48 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: Fair software pricing Message-ID: <19980520205948.27591.qmail@hotmail.com> I know that we recently discussed fair prices for hardware, but what are fair prices for software? I know that there must be hundreds of thousands of titles, but I have some specific questions. 1)Software that once WAS expensive, like old versions of AutoCAD, SPSS, etc. 2)Rare software, like Xenix 3)Famous software, like VisiCalc Should these things be expensive? More specifically, and perhaps more to the point, do you think that a copy of VisiCalc (black binder/manual c1981) and MS Multiplan are each worth $5? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dcoward at pressstart.com Wed May 20 16:40:06 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <19980520144006.0593a7a5.in@mail.pressstart.com> wrote: >>anybody have IBM PC DOS 1.00? or know of where I may d/l it from the >> net somewhere?? "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > I'm sure that I can find some way to get you the 1.1 diskette. Rich, Just attrib the system files: attrib -h -s a:ibm*.com Zip all the files to your hard drive pkzip -arp c:dos11.zip a:*.* reattrib the system files attrib +h +s a:ibm*.com and then sent the zip file to him by e-mail He can then format a 360K disk and copy the files to it and reattrib the system files. Boot with that disk and format a 320K disk. Attrib the system files and copy all of the files to the 320K disk Reattrib the system files. (I would make sure that the two system files were copied to a new disk before any of the other files and in the same order that they were on the original disk) That should work "in theory". My version 1.1 is a backup and I'm not sure if it contains any extra files. How does this directory listing compare to your disk? Volume in drive A has no label Directory of A:\ IBMBIO COM 1920 05-07-82 12:00p IBMDOS COM 6400 05-07-82 12:00p COMMAND COM 4959 05-07-82 12:00p FORMAT COM 3816 05-07-82 12:00p CHKDSK COM 1720 05-07-82 12:00p SYS COM 605 05-07-82 12:00p DISKCOPY COM 2008 05-07-82 12:00p DISKCOMP COM 1640 05-07-82 12:00p COMP COM 1649 05-07-82 12:00p EXE2BIN EXE 1280 05-07-82 12:00p MODE COM 2509 05-07-82 12:00p EDLIN COM 2392 05-07-82 12:00p DEBUG COM 5999 05-07-82 12:00p LINK EXE 41856 05-07-82 12:00p BASIC COM 11392 05-07-82 12:00p BASICA COM 16768 05-07-82 12:00p ART BAS 1920 05-07-82 12:00p SAMPLES BAS 2432 05-07-82 12:00p MORTGAGE BAS 6272 05-07-82 12:00p COLORBAR BAS 1536 05-07-82 12:00p CALENDAR BAS 3840 05-07-82 12:00p MUSIC BAS 8704 05-07-82 12:00p DONKEY BAS 3584 05-07-82 12:00p CIRCLE BAS 1664 05-07-82 12:00p PIECHART BAS 2304 05-07-82 12:00p SPACE BAS 1920 05-07-82 12:00p BALL BAS 2048 05-07-82 12:00p COMM BAS 4352 05-07-82 12:00p 28 file(s) 147489 bytes 7168 bytes free ========================================= Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum ========================================= From lgroebe at insidermarketing.com Wed May 20 16:13:13 1998 From: lgroebe at insidermarketing.com (Larry Groebe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: Fair software pricing Message-ID: <19980520160754.3fed7437.in@insidermarketing.com> >I know that we recently discussed fair prices for hardware, but what >are fair prices for software? I know that there must be hundreds >of thousands of titles, but I have some specific questions. > >1)Software that once WAS expensive, like old versions of AutoCAD, >SPSS, etc. >2)Rare software, like Xenix >3)Famous software, like VisiCalc >Should these things be expensive? >More specifically, and perhaps more to the point, do you think that >a copy of VisiCalc (black binder/manual c1981) and MS Multiplan are >each worth $5? Good topic! I was just thinking about the same thing the other day. I would certainly drop $5 on an original Visicalc, and maybe that for an old Multiplan. The nice thing is, it shouldn't be hard to find them for that price either. Old software is NOT attracting the attention of old hardware. But why is that? For the life of me, I dunno. But hey - I'm happy it's cheap - it means I can still get some while the gettin's good. What would I think is collectable? Version 1 of anything that later became famous. (DOS, Windows, Visicalc, Lotus, etc) Oddball packaging (Lotus Symphony, early Infocom games) Big-time failures and dead-ends (Lotus Jazz, GEM, Visi-ON) Software from the cassette and paper-tape era (Apple Brickout, Microsoft Altair BASIC) My .02 --Larry From yowza at yowza.com Wed May 20 16:21:32 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: The first PC In-Reply-To: <19980520205948.27591.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: I finally got to see the Computer Museum's "visible storage" at Moffet Field last night (after the SAGE talk). Wow. Not only did they have nearly every computer I've ever heard of, but several I've never heard of. All this time, I've assumed that the first home computer was the Altair (or the Kenback, or the Scelbi), but noooo.... It was the Honeywell Kitchen Computer: http://www.newmedianews.com/tech_hist/failed.html -- Doug From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Wed May 20 16:37:27 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: In-Reply-To: <19980520144006.0593a7a5.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980520163727.0082dc00@wingate> At 02:40 PM 5/20/98 -0700, you wrote: >wrote: >>>anybody have IBM PC DOS 1.00? or know of where I may d/l it from the >>> net somewhere?? > >"Richard A. Cini" wrote: >> I'm sure that I can find some way to get you the 1.1 diskette. > >Rich, > Just attrib the system files: >attrib -h -s a:ibm*.com > Zip all the files to your hard drive >pkzip -arp c:dos11.zip a:*.* > reattrib the system files >attrib +h +s a:ibm*.com > and then sent the zip file to him by e-mail > > He can then format a 360K disk and copy the files to it and > reattrib the system files. > Boot with that disk and format a 320K disk. > Attrib the system files and copy all of the files to the 320K disk > Reattrib the system files. > (I would make sure that the two system files were copied to a new disk > before any of the other files and in the same order that they were > on the original disk) > > That should work "in theory". I think you'll have to format the potential boot diskette with: FORMAT x: /b /f:nnn nnn = 160, 180? I'm not sure what formats 1.x supported. This will reserve space for the system files which have to start at track 0, IIRC. Then use: SYS sourcepath x: I think the sourcepath option was introduced in DOS 6.x. > > > >========================================= >Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com >Senior Software Engineer >Press Start Inc. >Sunnyvale,CA > >Curator >Museum of Personal Computing Machinery >http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum >========================================= > > -- David Wollmann dwollmann@ibmhelp.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 20 13:24:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:00 2005 Subject: Here we go with Microcode again... In-Reply-To: <199805200723.RAA09821@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> from "Huw Davies" at May 20, 98 05:23:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1034 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980520/ed148953/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed May 20 19:24:16 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Fair software pricing In-Reply-To: <19980520160754.3fed7437.in@insidermarketing.com> from "Larry Groebe" at May 20, 98 04:13:13 pm Message-ID: <9805202324.AA20809@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 407 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980520/172e9282/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Wed May 20 20:45:28 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Here we go with Microcode again... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > R0:=R0 and not 1, > > and > > R0:=R0 and (not 1), > > are totally different makes life interesting. They both do the same > thing, but the second one can't always be used. If anyone wants an > explanation, please ask. OK, I give up. I would think that the "and" would be an ALU function, but the "not 1" would be evaluated to a constant by the assembler. Does one of the "not 1" forms mean that the ALU should perform the operation (which it couldn't if an op was already scheduled)? -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Wed May 20 21:33:36 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Windows 1.x platforms... References: <3.0.5.32.19980519151952.013f9100@pop.batnet.com> <35624033.C90D6CEE@niia.net> Message-ID: <35639280.B06F0F0D@cnct.com> Paul & Sheri wrote: > > Kip Crosby wrote: > > > At 17:24 5/19/98 -0400, Allison wrote: > > >....I think winders didn't run on > > >the 80186(8) used in one of the tandys and a few oddballs. mostly because > > >the 186 has some on board peripherals (DMA and interrupts) that were not > > >PCclone compatable. > > > > On the contrary: There was a special version of Windows for the Tandy 2000 > > (80186) and Bill Gates referred to it as "the first computer built > > specifically to run Windows." > And, if I'm not mistaken, he had a suite of Tandy-specific Windows apps that > just happened to be ready to ship.....Tandy had to take 'em because there were > no other apps written at the time that would run on their machine. I believe > this was a long-standing DOS sales technique that Uncle Bill just carried > through to Windows. > > BTW, Tandy ended up with a warehouse full of the machines because they ran so > badly they couldn't sell 'em. I believe a bunch were shipped to RS stores to > use as store computers. > > Paul > NerdWare The Tandy 2000 was faster then the AT that came out a year later (8 Mhz 80186 vs 6 Mhz 80286). Actually, Windoze for the Tandy 2000 didn't show up until after the AT came out. Nor did a bunch of other bits of vaporware that Tandy took the word that the vendors could deliver. It can be Hell sliding down the leading (bleeding) edge of technology, as it can be any other time you slide down the razor blade of life. Tandy took risks in those days, some won and some lost. Ask your local IBM rep about the Transportable and the Junior -- admittedly IBM had bigger feet when they shot themselves in them, an easier target. Tandy made some really bad judgement calls in picking vendors for a couple of years -- Microsoft was definitely one such. (MicroWare was much more reliable, produced operating systems that crash much less often -- if ever, since I've never seen it happen unless I forced it to check debugging tools superior to anything available for NT except at _large_ extra cost, since they aren't from MS.). Yes, Billy-boy did refer to it as the first computer built to run Windows. Then he changed the rules about what Windows would run on. Have you tried lately to boot Windows '95 on a 486/33 with 8-Meg RAM? The "System Requirements" include it. Don't plan on much else for that day, or maybe that week.. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From yowza at yowza.com Wed May 20 21:36:29 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: FWD: Free Stuff (UK) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As seen on Usenet (don't contact me). Free to good home: * Byte (142 issues, mostly 1981-1993) * Elektor (57 isses, mostly 1985-1993) * Electronics Today International (43 issues, mostly 1986-1988) * Practical Electronics (19 issues,1967-1982) * Everyday [with Practical] Electronics (10 issues,1986-1996) * Electronics World + Wireless World (57 issues, 1989-1996) * Practical Wireless (33 issues, mostly 1967-1986) * Assorted Atari magazines (43 issues, 1986-1989) * MPS-801 printer * Bare 5.25" floppy drive * Assorted C64/128 software For full list see http://www.sagitta.demon.co.uk, mail me, or call 01604 709945. Will split, but collection from Northampton unless agreed otherwise. Graham Shaw (mailto:gdshaw@sagitta.demon.co.uk) From dastar at wco.com Wed May 20 21:49:25 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Fair software pricing In-Reply-To: <19980520205948.27591.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 May 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > I know that we recently discussed fair prices for hardware, but what > are fair prices for software? I know that there must be hundreds > of thousands of titles, but I have some specific questions. > > 2)Rare software, like Xenix Xenix? Rare? > 3)Famous software, like VisiCalc Way too much according to what I see some packages selling on the net for ($50-$100). > Should these things be expensive? Depends. How much do you want to pay? > More specifically, and perhaps more to the point, do you think that > a copy of VisiCalc (black binder/manual c1981) and MS Multiplan are > each worth $5? Not bad. Considering I've seen some fools pay ten times that. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From gram at cnct.com Wed May 20 22:31:21 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC DOS 1.00, anybody??? References: <19980520182041.15156.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3563A009.54543C85@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > It would be interesting to see the original QDOS... Remember the old Chinese curse "May you live in interesting times". -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed May 20 22:30:17 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Old Wang Thang Message-ID: <35639FC9.A41BAEDB@bbtel.com> Anyone want to take a stab at helping this young (or old, who cares) lady out? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rebecca Young Sydney, NSW Australia - Wednesday, May 20, 1998 at 23:17:42 Does anyone know how to get information off 5&1/4" floppies that apparently are from around the late 70s, early 80s and were done on a WANG system? I've got an emulator or something like it, but don't know any of the keyboard commands or mappings... -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From gram at cnct.com Wed May 20 22:53:14 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Questions, questions References: Message-ID: <3563A52A.CFFD145E@cnct.com> George Currie wrote: > Recently acquired a Heathkit computer. Looks to be a pc compatable (din > keyboard plug, 1/2 height 5 /14, etc). Plate on back says model U 148. Any > clues? I forget exactly when Zenith folded the operation, but I am willing to hazard a guess that _any_ Heath product is a classic under the rules of this mailing list. Even if it was a do-it-yourself multi- meter. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed May 20 23:05:04 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: The first PC References: Message-ID: <3563A7F0.ACC6C0B1@cnct.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > > I finally got to see the Computer Museum's "visible storage" at Moffet > Field last night (after the SAGE talk). Wow. Not only did they have > nearly every computer I've ever heard of, but several I've never heard of. > > All this time, I've assumed that the first home computer was the Altair > (or the Kenback, or the Scelbi), but noooo.... It was the Honeywell > Kitchen Computer: > http://www.newmedianews.com/tech_hist/failed.html How many were built? How many were sold? I doubt that the first answer reaches two digits. I strongly doubt that the second answer gets past enough to display at Disneyland and World's Fairs (one at most) by a reseller with a _plan_, that being Honeywell's own sales crew. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu May 21 00:15:01 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Questions, questions References: <3563A52A.CFFD145E@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3563B855.A6199AA5@bbtel.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > George Currie wrote: > > > Recently acquired a Heathkit computer. Looks to be a pc compatable (din > > keyboard plug, 1/2 height 5 /14, etc). Plate on back says model U 148. Any > > clues? > > I forget exactly when Zenith folded the operation, but I am willing > to hazard a guess that _any_ Heath product is a classic under the > rules of this mailing list. Even if it was a do-it-yourself multi- > meter. I'm sure all the computers are but some training items are not since they still do training. There is a mailing list like this for Heath enthusiasts but it deals with ham equipment and test equipment and all that is classic and antique in nature. I have a Heath tube tester that dates back to 1967 myself and there are people that have items back to some of the first kits and unbuilt kits as well. The Z248's I have are dated 1987 and 1888 so I guess they qualify for this list. Zenith Data Systems is now a separate company and has a web page at http://www.zds.com and it appears that their main focus is government and corporate machines rather than the everyday person. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From desieh at southcom.com.au Thu May 21 03:01:20 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: [Rare systems] & Garry Kildor Message-ID: <003401bd848e$a4ea8fa0$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Ward Donald Griffiths III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 20 May 1998 14:00 Subject: Re: [Rare systems] >Desie Hay wrote: >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ward Donald Griffiths III >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >> Date: Tuesday, 19 May 1998 12:14 >> Subject: Re: [Rare systems] >> >> >Desie Hay wrote: >> > >> >> I dont think anybody ported unix to the Lisa...well it wasnt a commerical >> >> thing.... >> >> im not sure on this but if someone knows for sure ill like to hear from >> them >> >> >> >> check out my Lisa web page...... >> > >> >Well, there was a Lisa running Unix at OCC '84 (the last) in Anaheim. >> >At least one. At the Apple booth. Since I'd been playing with Xenix >> >(at the Radio Shack Computer Center where I did tech support) for well >> >over a year by then, I was actually not too impressed -- it was far >> >from ready for prime time. But it was definitely Unix. It just wasn't >> >commercial. Especially since Tandy Xenix systems cost a fraction and >> >actually had support (around Los Angeles, that was mostly me -- with >> >some good documentation and a good line to Fort Worth). > >> yes ive seen pictures of Garry Kildor with a Lisa at his side... >> They had a version under development but i almost sure they never released >> it..... > >Gary Kildall did CP/M, he may have had some relationship with CP/M 68K >for Apple platforms (I don't think so, though he did have some input >into the port to the TRS-80 Model 16), but I seriously doubt that he >had anything to to do with Lisa Unix or the later A/UX for the "real" >Macintoshes. Gary Kildall was _not_ a Unix type, and I can't think of a >way to misspell any name of a Unix god "Garry Kildor". >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > yes well, I can't spell, and I think that Garry Kildor could have been the bill gates of today if he had played his cards right remember IBM went to him first before they went to Microsoft for a OS for their 'then' new PC..... he turned them down............. If had CP/M on the IBM PC he would have been able to do the same thing as what Billy Gates did resell it to other companies............ oh well its funney how things turn out......... From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Thu May 21 03:58:37 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Fair software pricing Message-ID: <006a01bd8496$a5458740$f73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> > >> More specifically, and perhaps more to the point, do you think that >> a copy of VisiCalc (black binder/manual c1981) and MS Multiplan are >> each worth $5? > >Not bad. Considering I've seen some fools pay ten times that. > Well I must be one of the fools because I would pay well for original 1981 PC software if the disks are still good. Its very hard to find around here. From desieh at southcom.com.au Thu May 21 04:36:13 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... Message-ID: <000e01bd849b$e5dcebe0$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm One of the best examples of this would be the original IBM PC....... now apparently the dudes on ebay say $100 for a IBM PC well if you have one in its original box will all manuals and all original parts, manuals, disks etc this would be a reasobabley fair price to pay. .999% of all IBM PC I come accross have been upgraded, treated badly, hacked, and far from thier original condiditon, and there are no manuals in site.............. but if you have one with only the CPU at that it well, perhaps $0-10 is a fairer price........ You cant just say that xxxxx computer is worh $xx amount...... you have to allow for some systems that have manuals, disks, boxes etc............. systhems in these conditions are few and far between............ this is just my opinion on the subject so I would like to hear other peoples comments.............. From Marty at itgonline.com Thu May 21 07:40:48 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Questions, questions Message-ID: <1998May21.083932.1767.105139@smtp.itgonline.com> Speaking of Zenith 248 computers, does anybody have a guesstimate on the amount of tempested Zenith 248's produced? They typically are labelled Zenith Inteq. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Questions, questions Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 5/21/98 1:18 AM Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > George Currie wrote: > > > Recently acquired a Heathkit computer. Looks to be a pc compatable (din > > keyboard plug, 1/2 height 5 /14, etc). Plate on back says model U 148. Any > > clues? > > I forget exactly when Zenith folded the operation, but I am willing > to hazard a guess that _any_ Heath product is a classic under the > rules of this mailing list. Even if it was a do-it-yourself multi- > meter. I'm sure all the computers are but some training items are not since they still do training. There is a mailing list like this for Heath enthusiasts but it deals with ham equipment and test equipment and all that is classic and antique in nature. I have a Heath tube tester that dates back to 1967 myself and there are people that have items back to some of the first kits and unbuilt kits as well. The Z248's I have are dated 1987 and 1888 so I guess they qualify for this list. Zenith Data Systems is now a separate company and has a web page at http://www.zds.com and it appears that their main focus is government and corporate machines rather than the everyday person. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists5.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998May21.011815.1767.42783; Thu, 21 May 1998 01:18:16 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id WAA12387; Wed, 20 May 1998 22:15:52 -0700 Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id WAA37576 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 22:14:47 -0700 Received: from bnllc2.blue.net (www.galloway-world.org [206.65.217.181]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP id WAA02671 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 22:14:46 -0700 Received: from bbtel.com (brand113.blue.net [206.65.221.113]) by bnllc2.blue.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA23671 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 00:15:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3563B855.A6199AA5@bbtel.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 00:15:01 -0500 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Russ/Alice Blakeman To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Questions, questions References: <3563A52A.CFFD145E@cnct.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From Marty at itgonline.com Thu May 21 07:47:53 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... Message-ID: <1998May21.084618.1767.105142@smtp.itgonline.com> Are you refering to the original 16KB-64KB motherboard 5150 PC or do you mean the 64KB-256KB motherboard 5150 PC? I have only seen two original 16KB-64KB 5150 PC's. I'm certain there must be plenty of them out there but I never see them. I see the 64KB-256KB motherboard 5150's everywhere. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 5/21/98 5:45 AM email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm One of the best examples of this would be the original IBM PC....... now apparently the dudes on ebay say $100 for a IBM PC well if you have one in its original box will all manuals and all original parts, manuals, disks etc this would be a reasobabley fair price to pay. .999% of all IBM PC I come accross have been upgraded, treated badly, hacked, and far from thier original condiditon, and there are no manuals in site.............. but if you have one with only the CPU at that it well, perhaps $0-10 is a fairer price........ You cant just say that xxxxx computer is worh $xx amount...... you have to allow for some systems that have manuals, disks, boxes etc............. systhems in these conditions are few and far between............ this is just my opinion on the subject so I would like to hear other peoples comments.............. ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998May21.054516.1767.42801; Thu, 21 May 1998 05:45:16 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id CAA21789; Thu, 21 May 1998 02:42:58 -0700 Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id CAA29832 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 02:42:49 -0700 Received: from hobart.southcom.com.au (root@hobart.southcom.com.au [203.60.16.2]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP id CAA14995 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 02:42:47 -0700 Received: from mr-ibm (pAc5.hbt.southcom.com.au [203.60.23.198]) by hobart.southcom.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA13271 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 19:42:44 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <000e01bd849b$e5dcebe0$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:36:13 +1000 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: "Desie Hay" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From cfandt at servtech.com Thu May 21 10:22:06 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Questions, questions In-Reply-To: <3563A52A.CFFD145E@cnct.com> References: Message-ID: <199805211528.PAA10158@cyber2.servtech.com> At 23:53 20-05-98 -0400, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: >George Currie wrote: > >> Recently acquired a Heathkit computer. Looks to be a pc compatable (din >> keyboard plug, 1/2 height 5 /14, etc). Plate on back says model U 148. Any >> clues? > >I forget exactly when Zenith folded the operation, but I am willing >to hazard a guess that _any_ Heath product is a classic under the >rules of this mailing list. Even if it was a do-it-yourself multi- >meter. >-- >Ward Griffiths Yes Ward, some of us indeed think that. FYI to members on this list, there is a Heath reflector, HEATH@LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV. For those who may be interested, send this command SUBSCRIBE HEATH [your own name here] to . The list leans more toward discussion of Heath's venerable amateur radio equipment, but all Heath products are included in the rules. I have not yet seen computer gear mentioned except for my requests for documentaion for the H11's I have in my collection. Back to you, George, the U 148 _could_ be actually H 148 as I believe Heath had a kit version of Zenith's Z148. Not sure. Can be checked by hunting through some old Heath catalogs I have for an H148 listing. Heath's ID plates were a soft, thin metalic self-adhesive tag with model number stamped onto it. The number could have been distorted from handling of the machine over time as has happened to several of my Heath items. --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu May 21 12:09:41 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Finds and questions Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980517140051.3eb7bca8@ricochet.net> At 10:49 PM 5/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >> Toshiba T1000 > >Very common, but worth $50 on eBay! I think just about everything is worth at least $50 on ebay... 8^) (Not too common, it's my first.) >> HP 110 > >Nice, one of the first clam-shell laptops (after the GRiD Compass, and >before the DG/One). I hope you have HP-IL cables and software! I believe it has PC2622 (precursor to Reflections by WRQ) in ROM? (HP Term emulator). Anyway, I've got 1 HP-IL cable (from an HP75D) but am still in search of an appropriate PS. >Army surplus or what? Nope, HMR. Btw, one of the 1520's (iirc) had a sheet of paper taped to it, a print-out from some fixed assets pgm. Listed the purchase date (iirc) as 12/89, and the original cost as $4800+. Current (depreciated) value is $0... 8^) >> Is the DB25 for an external floppy, >> since the HD seems to be where the floppy should be? > >Right again. The external floppy seems to be hard to find. I should have >a couple of them later this week, though :-) Perhaps the ones I picked up will fit; I'll have to give it a try? > >> The HD makes some >> rather unhappy noises, though it seems to work fine; anyone have any >> suggestions for the best way to get the data/OS off the hard drive in case >> of failure? (Just copy to floppies?) It comes up in something called >> (iirc) InteGRiD; anyone know anything about this? > >InteGRiD is a version of GRiD/OS that you can boot from MS-DOS (usually by >running GRID.EXE). I've never seen InteGRiD in a machine that didn't also >have MS-DOS on it. If you have MS-DOS, you can just use laplink. If you >don't have MS-DOS, you'll need a GRiDServer or a floppy. I was able to drop to DOS, so I'll see if I can get laplink onto it. But hopefully the floppy drives will work. You wouldn't know what type of HD is in there, would you? >Reprinted w/o permission from Newsbytes: > ><< [...] >European marketplace. The T1000 model which weighs in at 2.9 kg (or about [...] >(about US$ 1400), is supplied with MS-DOS 3.2 and a 3.5 inch disk drive. >This model, which replaces the old T1100, is designed to fill in the gap [...] >>> Interesting. Toshiba's spec files say it came with MS-DOS 2.11. They seem to have trouble keeping their model numbers in order. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu May 21 12:09:52 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Finds and questions Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980517140903.30ffb56a@ricochet.net> At 08:11 PM 5/18/98 -0700, you wrote: >> Army surplus or what? > >I'm guessing HMR... Open w/o appointment last Saturday? Actually, it was Friday. 8^) Yep, HMR. I *love* that place. I could spend $200/week easy, if I had it. 8^) Btw, was there someone else from the list at HMR last Friday? The guy (Rick?) I dealt with said someone else had been in that morning who was into GRiD's. Anyway, now that they're open on alternate Saturdays, perhaps we should be planning a bay area get-together? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu May 21 12:09:55 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Finds and questions Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980517141040.30ffa892@ricochet.net> At 11:11 PM 5/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >> Haddock claims the T1100 was Toshiba's first laptop; just by looking at the > >Oops, I forgot to mention that neither the T1000 nor the T1100 were >Toshiba's first laptop. I don't have one, but I think their first was the >T100, a CP/M laptop from 1982 Okay, where can I get one? 8^) Toshiba doesn't have a spec file for it; I'll have to do some searching around to find out more about it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu May 21 12:10:01 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC DOS 1.00, anybody??? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980520115019.30ffadaa@ricochet.net> At 10:17 PM 5/19/98 -0400, you wrote: >> anybody have IBM PC DOS 1.00? or know of where I may d/l it from the net >> somewhere?? > >Lad, we don't do that here. Copyright situation. Besides, PC-DOS 1.0 I don't know for sure, but knowing M$, I strongly suspect that they still retain the rights to it as a commercial product (and all versions since), unlike Apple, which makes the 6.0.x and 7.0 versions of the MacOS available for free from their FTP site. Perhaps the original poster was thinking that M$ might be so gracious as to do as Apple did? (Woooheee.... Boy, I crack myself up sometimes... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu May 21 12:10:04 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Windows 1.x platforms... Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980520121038.30ffab56@ricochet.net> At 12:16 PM 5/20/98 +0100, you wrote: >(one for regular posting to the list maybe? a list of good ftp sites / >web sites for various machines... or de we have a regular FAQ anyway?) I try to collect relevant URL's for each machine in my collection (and recommend others do so as well) and put links to them on my web pages for that machine. So, if anyone knows of any pages related to any of the machines I have (see for an almost up-to-date list), I would love to hear of them, even if I don't have a page for that specific machine yet. Other than that, CHAC has a pretty good list (go to ) even though I'm not on it yet. 8^( (Kip has a good excuse, though -- he's been writing (and rewriting everytime the Justice Dept has a press conference) a book on Win98.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu May 21 12:24:24 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Questions, questions References: <1998May21.083932.1767.105139@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <35646348.5AF29E7E@bbtel.com> Marty wrote: > Speaking of Zenith 248 computers, does anybody have a guesstimate on > the amount of tempested Zenith 248's produced? They typically are > labelled Zenith Inteq. We had 25 of them in one course area on Chanute AFB prior to it's close and there were a lot of other secure areas that had requirements for them too. So just on one base you're probably looking at a few thousand. I don't even want to guess what the overall number was just for the USAF let alone the entire production cycle of the Inteq. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu May 21 12:36:41 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Compute Magazines avail Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980521101521.30cfadb4@ricochet.net> I've got some Compute Magazines from the '80s, and some ST Informers (and a few misc. other mags) if anyone is interested. Technically, they belong to ABACUS, the Atari Bay Area Computer Users Society, so I'd like to get something for the club for them. (Or, offer me portable computer stuff, donald duck stuff, or miniature Land Rovers and I'll make a contribution on your behalf for them.) e-mail me privately if interested. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From Marty at itgonline.com Thu May 21 12:39:56 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Questions, questions Message-ID: <1998May21.133900.1767.105314@smtp.itgonline.com> I was told that most of these were pitched when they were replaced due to security concerns. Any truth to this rumor? ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Questions, questions Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 5/21/98 1:26 PM Marty wrote: > Speaking of Zenith 248 computers, does anybody have a guesstimate on > the amount of tempested Zenith 248's produced? They typically are > labelled Zenith Inteq. We had 25 of them in one course area on Chanute AFB prior to it's close and there were a lot of other secure areas that had requirements for them too. So just on one base you're probably looking at a few thousand. I don't even want to guess what the overall number was just for the USAF let alone the entire production cycle of the Inteq. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998May21.132642.1767.42874; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:26:43 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id KAA10134; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:24:22 -0700 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id KAA83352 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:24:10 -0700 Received: from bnllc2.blue.net (www.cruciblemagnetics.com [206.65.217.154]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP id KAA23448 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:24:09 -0700 Received: from bbtel.com (brand238.blue.net [206.65.221.238]) by bnllc2.blue.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA14120 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 12:24:37 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <35646348.5AF29E7E@bbtel.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 12:24:24 -0500 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Russ/Alice Blakeman To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Questions, questions References: <1998May21.083932.1767.105139@smtp.itgonline.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From yowza at yowza.com Thu May 21 12:47:24 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Finds and questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980517140051.3eb7bca8@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 May 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > >Army surplus or what? > > Nope, HMR. I called them once to inquire about their inventory, and I got the impression that they were asking for real money (like $100 for obsolete, err, classic, laptops). Do they drop prices on the weekend? > You wouldn't know what type of HD is in there, would you? I think they were probably using Conners. It's easy to check. Pop off the plastic feet on the back panel to reveal two screws. Remove them, and then pop off the lid. BTW, Doug Coward seems to have the world's supply of T100's, but he says they're not laptops. I always assumed the rectangle in the upper right corner I had seen in pix was an LCD, but apparently not (is it a cartridge slot?). -- Doug From greg at husic.com Thu May 21 13:09:10 1998 From: greg at husic.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: [Rare systems] & Garry Kildor Message-ID: <009b01bd84e3$8e2e3f00$0ac05dc6@wk16> -----Original Message----- From: Desie Hay To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 1:09 AM Subject: Re: [Rare systems] & Garry Kildor >yes well, I can't spell, and I think that Garry Kildor could have been the >bill gates of today if he had played his cards right I'm sure a lot of people wish Bill Gates were in Gary's shoes (so to speak). From yowza at yowza.com Thu May 21 13:24:56 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Altos available in Silicon Valley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, I don't have any details, but I got a message from somebody wishing to dispose of their Altos. Contact me for a name and phone number if you want to follow-up with him. -- Doug From rax at warbaby.com Thu May 21 15:44:10 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Extreme Geek Message-ID: Compound emulation, anyone? BeOS emulating MacOS emulating Win3.1 emulating Apple][e to play Dig Dug. http://www.bedope.com/digdug.jpg How far could one go with this cool silliness? R. -- Robert Arnold Managing Editor The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Creator and Eminence Grise Warbaby: The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. muahahahahaaaaa http://www.warbaby.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu May 21 14:45:08 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Zenith 248's Message-ID: <005c01bd84f1$144394c0$3067bcc1@hotze> Hi. Are these the 286's that Zenith sold by the mass-quadrillions to the US Gov't??? If so, they're pretty cool, when you get down to it. CPU's on a backplane, they had a 386 upgrade, and even a 486 one, but the 386's didn't sell, 486's were only prototypes, from what I can tell. By pressing CRL+INS you could get into this WAY COOL Apple II like ROM test program. Pleanty of RAM, etc. Trust me, I know. Every single day of the week, I USE ONE OF THESE in math class. Cool retro use, don't you agree??? It runs WP 5.1, they weren't equipped with Windows, but MS-DOS 5.0 (at least that's what I see, might have been 3.3), and some came with this cool monitor that had a Amber/Green/Normal switch, but only worked well in mono, not CGA mode. Tim D. Hotze From staponski at swpa.gov Thu May 21 15:53:41 1998 From: staponski at swpa.gov (Randy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon Message-ID: <35649455.ED6056EC@swpa.gov> Kai- I am interested in purchasing the North Star Horzion. I don't have a trade so would be a cash exchange. Do you have any info on the characteristics of the Horizon such as floppies, memory, monitor, keyboard, and overall condition? Thanks Randy Staponski From engine at chac.org Thu May 21 15:59:35 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Extreme Geek In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980521135935.00f87ad0@pop.batnet.com> At 12:44 5/21/98 -0800, Rax wrote: >Compound emulation, anyone? >How far could one go with this cool silliness? Back around... mmm, twelve years ago I once ran a UNIX emulation under Sydex's CP/M 2.2 emulation under PC-DOS 3.1. Back in the haze before that, I remember running _something_ under the Markov MS-DOS 2.11 emulation under TurboDOS. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 21 12:32:01 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Here we go with Microcode again... In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at May 20, 98 08:45:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1940 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980521/e53a02fe/attachment.ksh From K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz Thu May 21 16:15:27 1998 From: K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz (Keith Whitehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: What a find..... Message-ID: Ok.....have any of you ever heard of a PolyWog computer. Well I did years ago and I have now managed to score an even dozen of them. From ecloud at goodnet.com Thu May 21 16:25:18 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: NeXT parts & software Message-ID: <199805212125.OAA12871@goodnet.com> A coworker and I are both interested in acquiring some surplus color NeXT pizza-boxes which a neighboring company has. However there is only one of the DSP/speaker/ADB breakout boxes. They have also been gutted of hard drives and memory. So do any of you know where I could find extras? Especially the speakers and the NeXT OS - I'm assuming I could use normal FP-mode 72-pin SIMMS (that looks like the size slot they used) and a SCSI-II hard drive. Also, the monitor connection looks just like Sun's so I'm wondering if they are interchangeable - same res., refresh rate, etc.? They look like 21" monitors. Please reply to "all" since my coworker is probably not on this list. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * Linux * Khoros * sci fi * 808 State * Gravis Ultrasound * VRML * X window * From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 21 13:39:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Questions, questions In-Reply-To: <3563A52A.CFFD145E@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at May 20, 98 11:53:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1630 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980521/08b32071/attachment.ksh From pjoules at enterprise.net Mon May 18 16:28:45 1998 From: pjoules at enterprise.net (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Historic Microsoft anti-trust happenings References: Message-ID: <3560A80D.814B0698@enterprise.net> Do you think that there is any chance that Microsoft is now so big that it can afford better lawyers that the Department of Justice? Regards Pete From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu May 21 16:41:39 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Which boards were changed when upgrading VAX 780 to a 785? Message-ID: <13357522333.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I have lots of a 780, and lots of a 785. Which boards were changed when upgrading to a 785? Can I somehow combine the two and get a CPU? If I can, I can get a set of backplanes from ATS, but they're supposed to be spares for the VAX they've already decomissioned. They don't really want to give them to me unless I have a use for them. ------- From peacock at simconv.com Thu May 21 16:53:46 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Historic Microsoft anti-trust happenings Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8E9@mail.simconv.com> >>Do you think that there is any chance that Microsoft is now so big that it can afford better lawyers that the Department of Justice? Good chance, after all IBM beat the DOJ, I hope Bill can too. History shows the DOJ can't sustain long drawn out proceedings against large, well-funded companies. In this case attrition works in favor of MS, not against it. Let's hope Gates hangs tough and keeps the DOJ do-gooders out of the computer business. Jack Peacock From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu May 21 16:46:14 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: What does an M8579 go into? Message-ID: <13357523169.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> The book says 11-bit MOS RAM. What's 11 bits? ------- From spc at armigeron.com Thu May 21 14:57:59 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Historic Microsoft anti-trust happenings In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8E9@mail.simconv.com> from "Jack Peacock" at May 21, 98 02:53:46 pm Message-ID: <199805211958.PAA09801@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Jack Peacock once stated: > > >>Do you think that there is any chance that Microsoft is now so big > that > it can afford better lawyers that the Department of Justice? > > Good chance, after all IBM beat the DOJ, IBM didn't beat the DOJ as much as President Regan dropped the suit in the early 80s (82 or 83 I think) as part of his ``Smaller Government'' or ``Business Friendly Government'' or something like that. Before that, it had been going on for 10 years. -spc (Neutral in the Microsoft suit) From peacock at simconv.com Thu May 21 17:06:54 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Historic Microsoft anti-trust happenings Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8EB@mail.simconv.com> IBM didn't beat the DOJ as much as President Regan dropped the suit in the early 80s (82 or 83 I think) as part of his ``Smaller Government'' or ``Business Friendly Government'' or something like that. Before that, it had been going on for 10 years. That's what I mean, the DOJ can't sustain long lawsuits, the administrations change and the zealots get the rug pulled out from under them. Same may happen here, DOJ gets something started but when Steve Forbes tales office in 2001, the DOJ suit is history the next day. Jack Peacock From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 21 17:16:10 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: What does an M8579 go into? In-Reply-To: "Daniel A. Seagraves" "What does an M8579 go into?" (May 21, 14:46) References: <13357523169.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <9805212316.ZM29462@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 21, 14:46, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Subject: What does an M8579 go into? > The book says 11-bit MOS RAM. What's 11 bits? To a first approximation, 2 more than 9 :-) It's probably ECC memory; ie one step better than parity in that it can correct (not just detect) single-bit errors. ECC memory was used on 11/44 and 11/83, 11/93. How big is the M8579? QBus? Unibus? I can't find it in my guide. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu May 21 17:21:21 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: What does an M8579 go into? In-Reply-To: <9805212316.ZM29462@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <13357529561.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Looks like it could be UNIBUS, (hex-height) bit it's tall, like a VAX board. ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu May 21 17:22:23 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: What does an M8579 go into? In-Reply-To: <9805212316.ZM29462@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <13357529748.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Wait a minute! ECC uses 2 bits? That leaves 9. 9, 18, 27, *36*. Hmm! Something 36 bits maybe? ------- From peacock at simconv.com Thu May 21 17:43:05 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: What does an M8579 go into? Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8EC@mail.simconv.com> From: Daniel A. Seagraves [mailto:DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com] Wait a minute! ECC uses 2 bits? That leaves 9. 9, 18, 27, *36*. Hmm! Something 36 bits maybe? ------- There were several types of ECC schemes. Some worked at the byte level, some by the word. PDP memory boards commonly uses 22 bit words (16 data + 6 ECC), or accessible as 11 bit byte (8 data + 3 ECC). Memory boards based around Intel 256K DRAM controllers also supported this type of ECC (I think it was the 8206/8207 chipset?). The Intel ECC scheme was neat because it would scan for errors during refresh cycles, "bit scrubbing". Memory is vague, but I believe the 11 bit ECC byte was a Reed-Solomon type ECC pattern? Jack Peacock From djenner at halcyon.com Thu May 21 17:38:00 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Adaptec ACB 4070 Bridge (MFM/RLL to SCSI) Message-ID: <3564ACC8.A94557D3@halcyon.com> I have two of these MFM to SCSI adapters up for grabs. They screw onto the bottom of an MFM drive and convert the drive from MFM to SCSI. (It might be RLL instead of MFM.) Complete with cables. I don't have any docs, but it appears that you can get something from the Adaptec FAX number. See http://www.adaptec.com and search for ACB 4070. If anyone wants these for the cost of shipping, please let me know. Dave From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 21 18:57:08 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: What does an M8579 go into? In-Reply-To: <13357523169.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at May 21, 98 02:46:14 pm Message-ID: <9805212257.AA24516@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980521/f83ff66e/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu May 21 18:01:44 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Fair software pricing Message-ID: <19980521230145.26318.qmail@hotmail.com> I remember asking a while ago, and only a couple of people on the list had a copy >Xenix? Rare? > >> 3)Famous software, like VisiCalc > >Way too much according to what I see some packages selling on the net for >($50-$100). > >> Should these things be expensive? > >Depends. How much do you want to pay? > >> More specifically, and perhaps more to the point, do you think that >> a copy of VisiCalc (black binder/manual c1981) and MS Multiplan are >> each worth $5? > >Not bad. Considering I've seen some fools pay ten times that. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 05/11/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu May 21 18:01:45 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: What does an M8579 go into? In-Reply-To: <9805212257.AA24516@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <13357536917.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [256K*11 MOS from a MF10...] Hey, wow! That sounds suitably rare! Maybe I should go back to Mark's and scrounge for more KL parts, I've found a few... If I ever find a KL, I've got about a meg worth of RAM for it! :) ------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu May 21 18:02:52 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC DOS 1.00, anybody??? Message-ID: <19980521230252.24542.qmail@hotmail.com> I'm sorry if am a little slow, but why is that a curse? > >Remember the old Chinese curse "May you live in interesting times". >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu May 21 18:16:56 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? Message-ID: <19980521231656.11011.qmail@hotmail.com> I am curious as to the veracity of the article at http://www.MacKiDo.com/DarkSide/Coates.html It is a criticism of another article, partly quoted. The original article says the Apple got their idea from xerox in 1979, and MS got their ideas from Apple, and now they have copied the Mac w/Win98 The article in the link argues that Win98 is much worse than the mac, which I agree with. I am wondering about its statement that Apple knew all about GUI before 1979 with their Lisa. AFAIK, the lisa is ~1982... The author argues that the other one should get his facts and MS propaganda in check. Is he practicing hypocrisY? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From go at ao.com Thu May 21 18:23:24 1998 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: Questions, questions In-Reply-To: References: <3563A52A.CFFD145E@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199805212323.QAA02834@office.ao.com> I have one of the Heath 'Aircraft Navigation Computers' Tony writes about. Bought it new (built it myself!) way back when I was trying to be a student pilot - alas never finished the pilot thing but did enjoy the calculator. I would have loved to know the code, since the beast did all sorts of "foreground background" sorts of things. The "multiprocess" nature of the beast clearly showed through the user interface. Pretty advanced, really. I ultimately retired the unit (still works the last time I checked) after I obtained the HP cartridge for the 41C. In fact, I believe the Heath may have been on HP's mind when they designed their cart, as one consultant working on the project borrowed my Heath calculator for a while when they were in their design phase. Big drawback of the Heath unit was it's life on battery power. Sucked the nicads dry in about 1.5 hours of operation. Ran a little longer in "standby" with the clock updated and other realtime counters running, but no DISPLAY active. The HP ran DAYS on a set of N cells. Until now, I hadn't even considered it part of my "computer" collection. I have several old calculators, but don't consider myself quite a "collector" of those, (yet...) Gary At 07:39 PM 5/21/98 +0100, you wrote: ... snip > >Sort-of on-topic.... > >A few months back (end of last year) I wandered past an electrical shop >that had a large pile of Heathkit manuals for \pounds 2.00 each (about >the cost of a magazine here, to give some idea). I ignored the >loudspeaker system ones (of no interest) and a few of the others, but I >bought a large pile of them - mostly amateur radio and test equipment. >Some of them were from the old UK Heathkits (Heath of Gloucester, >Daystrom or something like that). > >Anyway, amongst them was the manual for an 'Aircraft Navigation >Computer'. It's a special-purpose RPN scientific calculator with >functions to input up to 10 legs of a flight, fuel usage, wind direction, >etc. It calculates the direction to fly in, etc. It's got all the normal >scientific functions as well. > >It looked a little HP-like - keylayout and case were similar, and it had >that 3-pin charger connector with the spring contact to short the outer 2 >pins when the charger was unplugged. > >Inside were _3_ 3870 microcontrollers (no idea as to the code, of course) >and a RAM chip. > >Needless to say I'd love the device. The manual is interesting on its >own, but hte machine would be even better. > >-tony > From peacock at simconv.com Thu May 21 18:43:49 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC DOS 1.00, anybody??? Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8ED@mail.simconv.com> From: Max Eskin [mailto:maxeskin@hotmail.com] I'm sorry if am a little slow, but why is that a curse? > >Remember the old Chinese curse "May you live in interesting times". >-- When you are sitting on the customer's computer room floor at 3am, and the paychecks are distributed at 7am, to the 300 angry miners who dynamited cars during the last strike, and that new "interesting" technology isn't working, then you will understand why it is a curse. Jack Peacock From engine at chac.org Thu May 21 18:08:31 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: Historic Microsoft anti-trust happenings In-Reply-To: <3560A80D.814B0698@enterprise.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980521160831.00f6dd40@pop.batnet.com> At 22:28 5/18/98 +0100, you wrote: >Do you think that there is any chance that Microsoft is now so big that >it can afford better lawyers that the Department of Justice? Has been able to for quite some time. Federal lawyers aren't all that well paid. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 21 18:57:25 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? Message-ID: The assertion that Xerox did not "invent" the GUI and that many of the concepts had existed separately prior to their fusion at PARC is both true and completely irrelevant, in exactly the same way that a similar assertion could be made for the Wright Brothers, etc. No invention springs wholly formed from teh forehead of the inventor, everything builds on previous innovations. Xerox invented the GUI for all practical purposes. Likewise, whether Apple was "planning" on implementing a GUI is completely facetious. To return to the Wright Brothers analogy, lots of people were planning on inventing an airplane. And besides, the GUI wasn't even a spark in Apple's eye in 1979, they were just introducing the Apple II+ at that time! The Xerox Star was introduced in May, 1981, and the Apple Lisa 1 wasn't announced until January, 1983. It shipped in June of that year, more than two years after the Xerox. Two years is a freaking LIFETIME in the computer industry. What is this columnist smoking? In regard to Windows being a clone of the Macintosh, that's also false. The intended competitive target for Windows 1.0 was somebody's PC based product which in turn was intended as a competitor to IBM's TopView. I was here in the Windows 2.x/3.0 days, in fact, I was the beta administrator for 3.0, and I can tell you that competing with the Macintosh was the furthest thing from our minds. Nobody in the dev group had worked on a Mac, we didn't have any Macs anywhere in the area, and nobody ever mentioned the Mac as we made product decisions. In those days, our competitor was Quarterdeck's DesqView, partly GEM too, and some other things most people have forgotten like VM/386, not the Mac. We were not trying to compete with or clone the Mac. We were trying to (and this is not a corporate 'line', I'm serious, I was there) 1. make the PC easier to use, and 2. break the '640K barrier'. We didn't do a graphical user interface because it was graphical, we did it because it was WYSIWYG -- note that the first real Windows app was Aldus PageMaker, a desktop publishing application. People think Windows was successful because of some big Microsoft master plan, which is ridiculous. It didn't sell hardly at all until it really took off with 3.0, and that's just because the incredibly small dev team (like 25 including management) just wanted to do some really cool software. Hell, at launch, we all had buttons that said "Windows 3.0 - It's Cool." We weren't, and aren't, Orwellian characters, just folks trying to write software that people want to buy. Gee, I guess it worked! So sue us! Remember that Windows back then wasn't remotely similar to the Mac apart from it being graphical and using icons. Any similarity to the Mac that grew over time was the result of tons of usability studies with people who had never used a computer before. If implementing features via usability studies makes Windows more like the Mac, that only means that Apple's user interface must be genuinely easy to use and that doing things that way are natural. There's this misperception that there's some bad blood between Microsoft and Apple because they sued us, which couldn't be farther from the truth. When the lawsuit came through, we weren't saying "Those bastards!", we were saying "Huh? Why would they do that to their buddies?" And we never held a grudge either, up to and including our recent financial investments in Apple and our continuing successful software line for the Mac. Kai (my opinions, not my employer's) -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin [mailto:maxeskin@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 21, 1998 4:17 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? I am curious as to the veracity of the article at http://www.MacKiDo.com/DarkSide/Coates.html It is a criticism of another article, partly quoted. The original article says the Apple got their idea from xerox in 1979, and MS got their ideas from Apple, and now they have copied the Mac w/Win98 The article in the link argues that Win98 is much worse than the mac, which I agree with. I am wondering about its statement that Apple knew all about GUI before 1979 with their Lisa. AFAIK, the lisa is ~1982... The author argues that the other one should get his facts and MS propaganda in check. Is he practicing hypocrisY? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Thu May 21 19:04:51 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: <19980521231656.11011.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 May 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > The article in the link argues that Win98 is much worse than the mac, > which I agree with. I am wondering about its statement that Apple > knew all about GUI before 1979 with their Lisa. AFAIK, the lisa > is ~1982... Did you ever see the PBS show "Triumph of the Nerds"? Me either, but the transcripts are online: http://www.pbs.org/nerds/ And here's a quote from Jobs (sorry for the formatting): << And they showed me really three things. But I was so blinded by the first one I didn't even really see the other two. One of the things they showed me was object orienting programming they showed me that but I didn't even see that. The other one they showed me was a networked computer system...they had over a hundred Alto computers all networked using email etc., etc., I didn't even see that. I was so blinded by the first thing they showed me which was the graphical user interface. I thought it was the best thing I'd ever seen in my life. Now remember it was very flawed, what we saw was incomplete, they'd done a bunch of things wrong. But we didn't know that at the time but still though they had the germ of the idea was there and they'd done it very well and within you know ten minutes it was obvious to me that all computers would work like this some day. >> -- Doug From donm at cts.com Thu May 21 19:22:36 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: Adaptec ACB 4070 Bridge (MFM/RLL to SCSI) In-Reply-To: <3564ACC8.A94557D3@halcyon.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 May 1998, David C. Jenner wrote: > I have two of these MFM to SCSI adapters up for grabs. They screw onto > the bottom of an MFM drive and convert the drive from MFM to SCSI. > (It might be RLL instead of MFM.) Complete with cables. > > I don't have any docs, but it appears that you can get something from > the Adaptec FAX number. See http://www.adaptec.com and search for > ACB 4070. Correction: The ACB 4070 is an SCSI to RLL bridge controller. The MFM one is the ACB 4000. - don > If anyone wants these for the cost of shipping, please let me know. > > Dave > From gram at cnct.com Thu May 21 19:30:52 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: Historic Microsoft anti-trust happenings References: <3.0.5.32.19980521160831.00f6dd40@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <3564C73C.259AFB60@cnct.com> Kip Crosby wrote: > > At 22:28 5/18/98 +0100, you wrote: > >Do you think that there is any chance that Microsoft is now so big that > >it can afford better lawyers that the Department of Justice? > > Has been able to for quite some time. Federal lawyers aren't all that well > paid. Yeah, but there's lots of them in the enthusiastic "up and coming" category trying to build reps at taxpayer expense. Remember that though MS has shitloads of money, the government can steal boatloads from us taxpayers. MS only has obnoxious salesmanship, Washington DC has nuclear weapons. And remember that most elected officials started out as lawyers -- even the guys with MS won't want to screw up their career path. The whole situation is bullshit anyway. I'm posting from a Linux system with nobody holding a gun to my head to switch from Netscape to Internet Exploiter. If someone does try that, they may find out why I'm a supporter of the Second Amendment living in a state that strongly opposes that right. The government is (as usual) wrong in this lawsuit despite my own feelings about MS garbage. Manufacturers are perfectly free to sell equipment with no MS stuff in the package, but unfortunately the ignorant mass of customers want the stuff and that means the manufacturers cave in to MS contract conditions or pay full retail for the product they ship. Honestly there are few legal and almost as few ethical conundra involved. I made _my_ choice and mostly run Linux. My wife has two systems with '95 preinstalled and therefore poorly configured -- my one '95 system was installed from media bought retail (I may not like it, but it's a professional necessity that I know it) works better, despite being a 486/66 competing with a Pentium 133 -- preinstalls are not optimized. (Of course, my 386/33 running Warp beats my hand-optimized 486/66 running '95 -- and my Linux boxes beat everything). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From yowza at yowza.com Thu May 21 19:37:27 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 May 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > We weren't, and aren't, Orwellian characters, > just folks trying to write software that people want to buy. Gee, I guess > it worked! So sue us! I think one reason Microsoft is being sued is that Microsoft software does not compete on the merits of the software alone. Windows 3.0 was the first almost barely usable/tolerable version of Windows. I'm not a Mac fan, but if you look at something like the Amiga and AmigaOS from 1985, it was such a clearly better operating system and windowing system PC environment compared to Microsoft's offering that if Microsoft had to compete on technical merit alone, they would have been out of business weeks after the Amiga's introduction. To suggest that Microsoft's success is due to writing software that people *want* to buy is disingenuous. Microsoft's success is due solely to the monopoly IBM gave them in 1982. To their credit, Microsoft is only about five years behind the curve. If IBM had kept the monopoly to themselves, we'd all be closer to ten years behind the curve. -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Thu May 21 20:35:45 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: Extreme Geek References: Message-ID: <3564D671.8A0916A9@cnct.com> Rax wrote: > > Compound emulation, anyone? > > BeOS emulating MacOS emulating Win3.1 emulating Apple][e to play Dig Dug. > > http://www.bedope.com/digdug.jpg > > How far could one go with this cool silliness? Well, Linux then WABI then OpenDOS then the old TRSDOS emulator then BASIC running an HP-65 emulator -- then I started programming. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 21 20:32:49 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? Message-ID: <199805220132.AA23025@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3564D8B8.58AC5900@cnct.com> Hotze wrote: > > Hi. Are these the 286's that Zenith sold by the mass-quadrillions to the US > Gov't??? If so, they're pretty cool, when you get down to it. CPU's on a > backplane, they had a 386 upgrade, and even a 486 one, but the 386's didn't > sell, 486's were only prototypes, from what I can tell. > By pressing CRL+INS you could get into this WAY COOL Apple II like ROM > test program. Pleanty of RAM, etc. Trust me, I know. Every single day of > the week, I USE ONE OF THESE in math class. Cool retro use, don't you > agree??? It runs WP 5.1, they weren't equipped with Windows, but MS-DOS 5.0 > (at least that's what I see, might have been 3.3), and some came with this > cool monitor that had a Amber/Green/Normal switch, but only worked well in > mono, not CGA mode. Problem with the Zenith government contract machines is that they were butt-ugly and half the speed of anything else with otherwise similar specs. In 1989, Zenith came out with out with a 386/33 (ugly) desktop (well, regular AT size) that performed like anybody else's 386/16 -- I paced it against AT&T, NCR and Hyundai boxes. The box looked like it could wade through WWIII without a blink, built like a tank but not nearly as pretty. At the same time, Zenith (ZDS being _about_ to be acquired by Groupe Bull) had a 12Mhz _laptop_ that performed as well as most 16MHz desktops -- with less memory it equalled that damned 386/33 PC box in everything except expansion. Of course, it probably would not as well at Ground Zero. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 21 20:23:24 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? Message-ID: Sure the DOS license was a big initial push, but to say it was solely responsible for the success of Microsoft is like saying the Model T is responsible for Ford having the best selling vehicle in America today. Microsoft was a development products company, not an OS company. When I got here in 1988, I remember seeing a revenue pie chart at the company meeting. We were at around 60-70% revenue from development products like C++ & FORTRAN, with a big slice from apps like Word & Multiplan, and DOS revenue was a tiny slice. In a decade where everything had to be written directly to the hardware to get any speed out of the 8088, you can hardly say that the DOS license had much to do with the success of the dev products. Our first, all time most successful Windows app, Excel, that nuked the Lotus 1-2-3 monopoly through ease of use and customer demand alone, was _ported from the Macintosh_. How exactly could we have leveraged our ownership of Windows to make Excel successful when it wasn't even written for Windows? If IBM endorsing & bundling an OS makes it a monopoly, why is OS/2 dead? etc. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com] Sent: Thursday, May 21, 1998 5:37 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: RE: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? On Thu, 21 May 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > We weren't, and aren't, Orwellian characters, > just folks trying to write software that people want to buy. Gee, I guess > it worked! So sue us! I think one reason Microsoft is being sued is that Microsoft software does not compete on the merits of the software alone. Windows 3.0 was the first almost barely usable/tolerable version of Windows. I'm not a Mac fan, but if you look at something like the Amiga and AmigaOS from 1985, it was such a clearly better operating system and windowing system PC environment compared to Microsoft's offering that if Microsoft had to compete on technical merit alone, they would have been out of business weeks after the Amiga's introduction. To suggest that Microsoft's success is due to writing software that people *want* to buy is disingenuous. Microsoft's success is due solely to the monopoly IBM gave them in 1982. To their credit, Microsoft is only about five years behind the curve. If IBM had kept the monopoly to themselves, we'd all be closer to ten years behind the curve. -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Thu May 21 21:06:29 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC DOS 1.00, anybody??? References: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8ED@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: <3564DDA5.583036F3@cnct.com> Jack Peacock wrote: > > From: Max Eskin [mailto:maxeskin@hotmail.com] > I'm sorry if am a little slow, but why is that a curse? > > > >Remember the old Chinese curse "May you live in interesting times". > >-- > When you are sitting on the customer's computer room floor at 3am, and > the paychecks are distributed at 7am, to the 300 angry miners who > dynamited cars during the last strike, and that new "interesting" > technology isn't working, then you will understand why it is a curse. Yup, that's it. Since the software was just "upgraded" (such an innocent-sounding word!). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 21 21:02:20 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980521210220.00b5c970@pc> At 04:57 PM 5/21/98 -0700, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > >In regard to Windows being a clone of the Macintosh, that's also false. The >intended competitive target for Windows 1.0 was somebody's PC based product >which in turn was intended as a competitor to IBM's TopView. That's not to say, of course, that Windows 1.0 would not have been better had it cloned the Mac. :-) >People think Windows was successful because of some >big Microsoft master plan, which is ridiculous. It didn't sell hardly at >all until it really took off with 3.0, I was one of a handful of guys who wrote a Windows 2.0 illustration program that we sold to SPC that became Harvard Draw. Speaking with that experience in mind, programming for Win 2.0 was hell on Earth. :-) All the fun of 16-bit x86 plus a toddling GUI API. Relax, Kai. Some of us are hoping the DOJ would leave Microsoft alone, and hope they don't go after the next software company. ("Why, I'm shocked, shocked, shocked that one software company would wish another would dry up!" Government officials who accept covert international espionage are surprised by corporate managers playing "us-vs.-them" in blustery memos?) And this wouldn't be the first time a Mac-flavored columnist had a strange spin on the world. At 07:37 PM 5/21/98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote: >I'm not a Mac >fan, but if you look at something like the Amiga and AmigaOS from 1985, it >was such a clearly better operating system and windowing system PC >environment compared to Microsoft's offering that if Microsoft had to The Amiga's GUI, Intuition, will go down in history as being almost religiously nonconformist and anti-standard - in the first few years, the evangelists seemed in love with the idea that, for example, every program's Open/Save dialogs would be hand-rolled and completely different from the next. By the time they changed their mind about that, it was too late. It didn't track most resources - even Win 1.0 tried to do that. Another great flaw of the Amiga core (on which Intuition relied) was its lack of task-to-task memory protection, indeed, a reliance on free access to all memory by all tasks. The Amiga had great multitasking and a generally clean feel to its "Exec" mainly because the guy who was assigned to write it was wise enough to recognize that he was no expert, and picked up a textbook on OS design. This free access to all memory gave the machine and its custom hardware its lean-and-mean feel, but it wasn't scalable or very portable. That's about it. It inherited all sorts of crud from Martin Richard's B and BCPL languages, for heaven's sake, because Amiga Corp. wasn't capable (given CBM's time and money constraints) of producing an OS to sit on top of the Exec, so they grafted his Tripos OS on it instead. I can say all this only because I devoted many years and much soul to the Amiga. :-) Early Windows suffered the most from the 16-bit legacy of the Intel processor. At least it attempted to abstract the graphics interface, tracked resources, encouraged standard GUIs, etc. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu May 21 21:51:12 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? Message-ID: <002a01bd852c$94243ce0$1167bcc1@hotze> >Sure the DOS license was a big initial push, but to say it was solely >responsible for the success of Microsoft is like saying the Model T is >responsible for Ford having the best selling vehicle in America today. Exactly. It's kind of like how scientists can associate one thing with another, such as "Salt increases people's chances of having a heart attack, therefore having little/no salt reduces it". It's not true; see if ANY living being can go without salt. If DOJ's going to punish MS, the LEAST they could to would be to get their facts strait. >Microsoft was a development products company, not an OS company. When I got >here in 1988, I remember seeing a revenue pie chart at the company meeting. >We were at around 60-70% revenue from development products like C++ & >FORTRAN, with a big slice from apps like Word & Multiplan, and DOS revenue >was a tiny slice. In a decade where everything had to be written directly >to the hardware to get any speed out of the 8088, you can hardly say that >the DOS license had much to do with the success of the dev products. I think that you'll agree with me when I say that revenues arn't everything, and in some cases, anything. Take Internet Explorer, for example. I'd imagine that the product (which, BTW, is an excellent browser) doesn't make much, if any money, due to the fact that the only way you pay for it is $5 for a CD or $30 or whatever for Internet Explorer Plus. But still, IE makes up between 30-50% of the browser wars. >Our first, all time most successful Windows app, Excel, that nuked the Lotus >1-2-3 monopoly through ease of use and customer demand alone, was _ported >from the Macintosh_. How exactly could we have leveraged our ownership of >Windows to make Excel successful when it wasn't even written for Windows? Exactly. MS shouldn't be punished for making good desisions or good luck. Now, the ONLY thing that would actually call for an anti-trust hearing would be if the Gov't offered MS money for something. DOJ really doesn't know what they're talking about once they get to computers. That judge was happy to see the IE logo off his computer!!! The disputed files still existed. >If IBM endorsing & bundling an OS makes it a monopoly, why is OS/2 dead? IBM... now, I don't think that they're guilty, but they call for anti-trust hearings. They make their own hard drives, OS's, chips (x86 and otherwise), PC's, mainframes.... talk about BUNDLING... A good point, which I think needs to be made is that the PC industry has reached an odd point. It's at an area where products can be hyped enough for a idiot with some cash to want to get a PC for a couple of reasons. For instance, someone was talking to their sister and was asking me for help on the Internet, and he was concerned that her sister's Mac wasn't a Pentium. All he knew was how the Pentium was hyped. PowerPC was not, except for a 3-6 month Motorola campaign. Seriously, I happen to kind of like Windows. It's pretty easy to use. Now, due to Autoplay in Windows 95, I can get even the most BASIC to install a program. Needless to say, that's something that has considerably lowered my phone bill. ;-) >Kai Don't worry. We're mostly geeks on this list, meaning we want the Government to stay in it's own territory. Hey... anyone think about launching anti-trust hearings against the government/IRS??? They're monopolies.... BTW, what exactly do you do at Microsoft???? Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From dastar at wco.com Thu May 21 22:30:56 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: Adaptec ACB 4070 Bridge (MFM/RLL to SCSI) In-Reply-To: <3564ACC8.A94557D3@halcyon.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 May 1998, David C. Jenner wrote: > I have two of these MFM to SCSI adapters up for grabs. They screw onto > the bottom of an MFM drive and convert the drive from MFM to SCSI. > (It might be RLL instead of MFM.) Complete with cables. > > I don't have any docs, but it appears that you can get something from > the Adaptec FAX number. See http://www.adaptec.com and search for > ACB 4070. Hi Dave. If you've still got these then I wouldn't mind having at least one. My address is: Sam Ismail 4275-29 Rosewood Drive #161 Pleasanton, California 94588 And yours? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From gram at cnct.com Thu May 21 22:42:22 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC DOS 1.00, anybody??? References: <19980521230252.24542.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3564F41E.8CC65E4A@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > I'm sorry if am a little slow, but why is that a curse? > > > >Remember the old Chinese curse "May you live in interesting times". Historians only care about when people are going through something that looks like the biblical hell -- wars, plagues, earthquakes etc. That's who the times are "interesting" for. And anybody with any interest in computers has been living in such times since at least 1974, if not 1945. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From dastar at wco.com Thu May 21 22:43:56 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: Fair software pricing In-Reply-To: <19980521230145.26318.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 May 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > What's with all these damn blank lines? > I remember asking a while ago, and only a couple of people on the > list had a copy > >Xenix? Rare? I don't know. I can understand maybe games like Ultima that people played the hell out of when they were kids and wore the oxide off the diskette and the ink off the label, and wore the manual out and the box sat in the messy room and got beat up, eventually the whole thing being tossed once you grew out of it. I can see that being rare (but can't believe an offer I once saw on comp.sys.apple2.forsale from some guying willing to pay $300 for a copy). Xenix, on the other hand, I have a couple systems with it installed, and I believe a couple install packages somewhere in the collective mess. Its very much out there. These softwares are findable. All one has to do is look around in thrift stores and at swap meets. If you go regularly enough you will start to find this stuff (of course your area may vary widely, but you'd be surprised...you just gotta be willing to look harder and farther and in creative ways). Any serious computer collector is out searching about at least two Saturdays out of the month. The really successful (and lucky) ones are out at least every weekend. The deranged fanatics (like me) find time during the week as well (I average between 4-8 outings a month). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From yowza at yowza.com Thu May 21 22:44:43 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 May 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Sure the DOS license was a big initial push, but to say it was solely > responsible for the success of Microsoft is like saying the Model T is > responsible for Ford having the best selling vehicle in America today. If Ford had been able to force every driver to make a big investment in their vehicle and cause them to fear to lose that investment by buying faster, better, cheaper cars, then the analogy would be fair. > Microsoft was a development products company, not an OS company. When I got > here in 1988, I remember seeing a revenue pie chart at the company meeting. > We were at around 60-70% revenue from development products like C++ & Borland was another case in which their technology was clearly superior to Microsoft's, but Microsoft was able to leverage their monopoly to push inferior technology. I don't think there's any question that the tight coupling between the Windows 3.0 API, the Windows SDK, and Microsoft's tools marked the beginning of the end of Borland. And as somebody who came on board in 1988, I'm sure you remember how painful it was to use Microsoft tools compared to Borland's at that point. Microsoft's API monopoly allowed them to make mistakes and inferior products and not only survice, but flourish. This was an unprecedented advantage over ever other competitor, and continues to be so to this day. > Our first, all time most successful Windows app, Excel, that nuked the Lotus > 1-2-3 monopoly through ease of use and customer demand alone, was _ported > from the Macintosh_. How exactly could we have leveraged our ownership of > Windows to make Excel successful when it wasn't even written for Windows? If Microsoft had to compete on an even playing field, I think they would have been a good match for Lotus, and they probably would have put Word Perfect to bed as well. But Borland? Geoworks? Novel? Netscape? Sun? Next? Apple? Amiga? I think we would all have much better software and operating environments today if Microsoft had to compete soley on technical merit. > If IBM endorsing & bundling an OS makes it a monopoly, why is OS/2 dead? Too little, too late. IBM, famous for tying customers to proprietary systems, gave away both the PC architecure and the O/S platform. Why do you think Microsoft is fighting so hard for the rights to give away a browser? Because the internet is an API that they don't yet own. If they own the browser market, they own the "API" (HTML, HTTP, etc.), and eventually they'll own the internet. I, for one, don't like that idea. Of course, I put all of my disposable income into Microsoft stock, because the strategy is *so* damn good. I love them as an investment, but I don't like the way they grab power, and most of the time, I don't like what they do with the power once they have it. If Microsoft did the right thing just half of the time, I wouldn't have to use Linux when I want real performance and productivity. -- Doug From dastar at wco.com Thu May 21 23:12:27 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This Microsoft vs. The World of Computers debate is getting to be rather partisan. If the discussion was left to the topic of the history of the software then that would be find, but I see this turning into a big flame fest that just doesn't need to happen. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From yowza at yowza.com Thu May 21 23:41:05 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > This Microsoft vs. The World of Computers debate is getting to be rather > partisan. If the discussion was left to the topic of the history of the > software then that would be find, but I see this turning into a big flame > fest that just doesn't need to happen. If there were name calling or ad hominem attacks, I'd agree, but I think it's been kept within a historical perspective so far. I'm normally not one for government intervention or regulation, and I really doubt that the guys in the DOJ "get it", but I've seen what Microsoft has done to my PC, and I don't want that to happen to the internet. I think the chances of the DOJ splitting Microsoft into MS-Apps and MS-OS is close to zero, but I think it would revitalize an industry that has all but dried up and given in to WinTel. The internet is such a sweet young thing, I'd hate to see her "embraced and extended" by any corporate powerhouse. Of course, there's always the argument that Microsoft is a benevolent dictator, and I have to admit that Microsoft has started to do real research and innovation in recent years, and that every Microsoft developer I've met after 1988 or so has been more than competent. Unfortunately, I think that's due in part to the fact that nobody else is left to work for :-( -- Doug From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Thu May 21 23:42:17 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: Which boards were changed when upgrading VAX 780 to a 785? In-Reply-To: <13357522333.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at May 21, 98 02:41:39 pm Message-ID: <199805220442.AAA08812@shell.monmouth.com> > > I have lots of a 780, and lots of a 785. > Which boards were changed when upgrading to a 785? Can I somehow combine > the two and get a CPU? If I can, I can get a set of backplanes from ATS, > but they're supposed to be spares for the VAX they've already decomissioned. > They don't really want to give them to me unless I have a use for them. The backplane was different, the entire CPU and floating point were different. The Massbuss and Unibus adapters were the same... I'll pull my '780 docs Saturday when I get home. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From dastar at wco.com Fri May 22 00:41:16 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 May 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > If there were name calling or ad hominem attacks, I'd agree, but I think > it's been kept within a historical perspective so far. I'm normally not > one for government intervention or regulation, and I really doubt that the > guys in the DOJ "get it", but I've seen what Microsoft has done to my PC, > and I don't want that to happen to the internet. I agree. This whole lawsuit, on the grounds that they are filing it, seems pretty meritless to me. So unless the DOJ attorneys pull some other trick out of their ass, I don't think they have much chance of succeeding on their current course. I think they need to go after the practice of Microschlock locking OEMs (Dell, Compaq, etc) into buying Windows95 and nothing else or no Windows95 at all. That's wrong and fucked up. All in all, I love the fact that MS is getting reamed. I say more power to the DOJ. But as far as this discussion, Kai gets ultra-sensitive from the MS bashing, and I just don't think its fair to him to turn the list into an MS-bashing circle (its starting to happen) no matter how much its deserved. > I think the chances of the DOJ splitting Microsoft into MS-Apps and MS-OS > is close to zero, but I think it would revitalize an industry that has all > but dried up and given in to WinTel. The internet is such a sweet young > thing, I'd hate to see her "embraced and extended" by any corporate > powerhouse. I whole-heartedly, unequivocally agree. But you're discounting Linux. I'm surprised. Five years from now Windows' dominance will be a non-issue. The world will have been made much more colorful and free by Linux. I hope you believe me because I'd hate to prove you wrong in five year's time (plus I need to get a win after being called on my "bzzt" for being wrong about the origins of Unix :) > Of course, there's always the argument that Microsoft is a benevolent > dictator, and I have to admit that Microsoft has started to do real > research and innovation in recent years, and that every Microsoft > developer I've met after 1988 or so has been more than competent. > Unfortunately, I think that's due in part to the fact that nobody else is > left to work for :-( So why can't these collective developers deliver a bug free OS? I hate Win95 with a fucken god inspired passion and zeal. I had a crash on my laptop that required me to re-install drivers and shit for my display because win95 decided to delete them for some reason. What the fuck is that!? Fuck MS. Fuck them and Bill and his ugly wife. Well, that's my outburst for the day. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Thu May 21 20:59:48 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805220555.BAA21161@mail.cgocable.net> Big snip! > > So why can't these collective developers deliver a bug free OS? I hate > Win95 with a fucken god inspired passion and zeal. I had a crash on my > laptop that required me to re-install drivers and shit for my display > because win95 decided to delete them for some reason. What the fuck is > that!? Fuck MS. Fuck them and Bill and his ugly wife. Well, that's my > outburst for the day. Many guys might did not know that fact is if you disable win95sux's "let win manage my (yeah right, you're not yours!) virtual memory..." and select the "let me specify my own virtual mem settings" with min 40mb and max 40mb. I did that for long time not knowing why. Had that funny feeling when I saw that idea of allowing win95 to play with size. Until I read one note by a user on comp.sys.laptops newsgroups says that is to prevent overwriting all over files when something breaks. Also better trash that IE 4.x go for netscape instead. IE 4.x is too great risk to have especially on notebooks because many did not backup their files and those irreplaceable drivers, pow! Many laptops did not come with a cd. Stupid! Jason D. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ever onward. > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 05/11/98] > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 22 01:07:01 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [last one, I promise] On Thu, 21 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > to the DOJ. But as far as this discussion, Kai gets ultra-sensitive from > the MS bashing, and I just don't think its fair to him to turn the list > into an MS-bashing circle (its starting to happen) no matter how much its > deserved. Kai has got to be a multi-millionaire thanks to Microsoft. I think he can take it (or at least afford to hire somebody to take it for him)! The ill will many in our industry feel towards Microsoft is no different than the ill will the rest of the world feels towards the US. We're used to it, and most of us have the attitude "damn right I have an unfair advantage being an American, so what are you still doing in [your country here]?". > I whole-heartedly, unequivocally agree. But you're discounting Linux. > I'm surprised. Five years from now Windows' dominance will be a > non-issue. The world will have been made much more colorful and free by > Linux. I hope you believe me because I'd hate to prove you wrong in five > year's time (plus I need to get a win after being called on my "bzzt" for > being wrong about the origins of Unix :) Bzzt! Consider this guaranteed-to-happen scenario: 1) Microsoft gets the OK to integrate IE into every person's desktop OS (even Apple's, dammit!). 2) IE is optimized for certain HTML and HTTP. 3) Only MS-InternetServer (or whatever they call their web server) knows how to generate the optimal HTTP protocol. What happens to Apache in this scenario? What happens to Linux once you can no longer run a browser that knows how to talk MS-HTTP or run a server that knows how to spew it? > So why can't these collective developers deliver a bug free OS? I hate > Win95 with a fucken god inspired passion and zeal. I had a crash on my > laptop that required me to re-install drivers and shit for my display > because win95 decided to delete them for some reason. What the fuck is > that!? Fuck MS. Fuck them and Bill and his ugly wife. Well, that's my > outburst for the day. Nice. Now this thread is inappropriate. Microsoft will do anything to keep whatever API they own in power. For the last several years, the DOS API still mattered. Linux doesn't care about preserving nasty old APIs, so Microsoft has an additional burden to maintain their evil domination :-) And that's one reason Windows sucks. -- Doug From dastar at wco.com Fri May 22 01:10:05 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm really sorry about my last message. It was intended to be private to Doug only. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From desieh at southcom.com.au Fri May 22 02:19:49 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC DOS 1.00, anybody??? Message-ID: <002a01bd8552$0253c9e0$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, 22 May 1998 3:18 Subject: Re: IBM PC DOS 1.00, anybody??? >At 10:17 PM 5/19/98 -0400, you wrote: >>> anybody have IBM PC DOS 1.00? or know of where I may d/l it from the net >>> somewhere?? >> >>Lad, we don't do that here. Copyright situation. Besides, PC-DOS 1.0 > >I don't know for sure, but knowing M$, I strongly suspect that they still >retain the rights to it as a commercial product (and all versions since), >unlike Apple, which makes the 6.0.x and 7.0 versions of the MacOS available >for free from their FTP site. > >Perhaps the original poster was thinking that M$ might be so gracious as to >do as Apple did? (Woooheee.... Boy, I crack myself up sometimes... 8^) > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > well there was talk at sometime that Microsoft was going to make DOS shareware......... dont know what evunated out of it but isnt Win 98 the last OS to have MS-DOS?? so whenever they release a next OS that would be the time they make DOS shareware......... this is probably so they dont have to support it anymore........ From desieh at southcom.com.au Fri May 22 02:22:29 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:02 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... Message-ID: <004501bd8552$61b05340$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Marty To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, 21 May 1998 22:47 Subject: Re: Prices to pay for old computers... > Are you refering to the original 16KB-64KB motherboard 5150 PC or do > you mean the 64KB-256KB motherboard 5150 PC? I have only seen two > original 16KB-64KB 5150 PC's. I'm certain there must be plenty of them > out there but I never see them. I see the 64KB-256KB motherboard > 5150's everywhere. > > Marty > > > >______________________________ Reply Separator >_________________________________ >Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... >Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet >Date: 5/21/98 5:45 AM > > > email: desieh@southcom.com.au > desieh@bigfoot.com > museum_curator@hotmail.com > Apple Lisa Web Page: > http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm > > > One of the best examples of this would be the original IBM PC....... > now apparently the dudes on ebay say $100 for a IBM PC well if you have one > in its original box will all manuals and > all original parts, manuals, disks etc this would be a reasobabley fair > price to pay. .999% of all IBM PC I come accross > have been upgraded, > treated badly, hacked, and far from thier original condiditon, and there are > no manuals in site.............. > but if you have one with only the CPU at that it well, perhaps $0-10 is a > fairer price........ > You cant just say that xxxxx computer is worh $xx amount...... you have to > allow for some systems that have manuals, disks, > boxes etc............. > > systhems in these conditions are few and far between............ > > this is just my opinion on the subject so I would like to hear other peoples > comments.............. > > > > > ------ Message Header Follows ------ > Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com > (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) > id AA-1998May21.054516.1767.42801; Thu, 21 May 1998 05:45:16 -0400 > Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) > by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP > id CAA21789; Thu, 21 May 1998 02:42:58 -0700 > Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) > by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP > id CAA29832 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 > 02:42:49 -0700 > Received: from hobart.southcom.com.au (root@hobart.southcom.com.au > [203.60.16.2]) > by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP > id CAA14995 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 02:42:47 > > -0700 > Received: from mr-ibm (pAc5.hbt.southcom.com.au [203.60.23.198]) > by hobart.southcom.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA13271 > for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 19:42:44 +1000 (EST) > Message-Id: <000e01bd849b$e5dcebe0$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> > Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:36:13 +1000 > Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > Precedence: bulk > From: "Desie Hay" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > > Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-To: > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > yes I am talking about the original 16kb-64kb model............ I wounder how many IBM PCs are still out there with only cassette input and 16KB of RAM............ no floppy drives............. oh well From desieh at southcom.com.au Fri May 22 02:26:16 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: [Rare systems] & Garry Kildor Message-ID: <007201bd8552$e8ee8480$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Greg Troutman To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, 22 May 1998 4:19 Subject: Re: [Rare systems] & Garry Kildor > >-----Original Message----- >From: Desie Hay >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 1:09 AM >Subject: Re: [Rare systems] & Garry Kildor > > >>yes well, I can't spell, and I think that Garry Kildor could have been the >>bill gates of today if he had played his cards right > >I'm sure a lot of people wish Bill Gates were in Gary's shoes (so to speak). > > well yes I suppose........but didnt Garry get killed in a bar fight a few years ago??? No old Billy Gates has brought some good into this world............ but 99.9999% of what he has done is just to steal and steal.......... From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri May 22 06:43:54 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Help aligning Kaypro disk drives? Message-ID: <199805221143.EAA18573@saul7.u.washington.edu> A while ago I got a Kaypro 4'84 system for free and have been trying to bring it back to a state of stability and usefulness. The system as a whole was in good shape; my problems have been with the disk drives. I had hoped it was "only" old, worn-out disks that were causing the problem (and the disks are worn-out, as tests with 22DISK on a school PC show) but the drives themselves seem to be flaky. (Either that, or the new Verbatim disks I bought are substandard.) My worst fear is that the drives are corrupting the disks somehow. (Can this happen even when no writing is involved?) I have two spare drives; one is evidently SSDD and the other is DSDD -- I have not tested them. Only the DSDD drive is really suitable. These are, IIRC, 96-tpi MFM drives. They are made by TEC. (Not the same as TEAC, I suppose.) I would just put one in, except that I'm not sure if I need to do anything to align them. Even if I did need to, I undoubtedly don't have the equipment. Is alignment really important? What about on new drives? Could cleanliness be a problem? (I cleaned the heads with a head-cleaning kit a while ago; I put the dust cover on the computer for some time but stopped; however, the keyboard latches in front of the drives anyway. I keep the doors closed and the shipping inserts in the drives; I definitely have been careless about the order of inserting/removing the inserts and opening/closing the drives and turning on/off the computer.) It's very unsettling to think of my software eroding as I watch. I haven't found replacements for some of it. I've tried using 22DISK; there are two problems with this: 1) It doesn't like my formats very much, and 2) I've been using PC's in the computer lab and I don't trust those drives any more than mine! I may haul an ex-roommate's Korean '386 box out of the closet if I get desperate. The Apple ][ disk drives I've seen have had flawless performance; even PC 5.25" drives seem to do very well. I'm getting very tired of hearing my machine go "grkgrkgrkgrk ... grkgrkgrkgrk ... grkgrkgrkgrk ..." (It's one of those sounds that is instantly annoying and recognizable by pure instinct as a Very Bad Sound. I wonder what a list of those sounds would look like?) Thanks, -- Derek From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri May 22 07:53:10 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13357688270.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [What happens if Microsoft does etc. etc. etc...] Then the world will generate something better. Why don't we all quit complaining about how bad Microsoft is (That won't change a damn thing anyway) and come up with something better? I'm sure there's enough knowledge in here to start something and send it to the world... Just make a better windows! And, like Linux, it wouldn't be attached to a company, so it couldn't be bought... ------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri May 22 08:12:16 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Questions, questions References: <1998May21.133900.1767.105314@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <356579B0.AC752168@bbtel.com> Marty wrote: > I was told that most of these were pitched when they were replaced due > to security concerns. Any truth to this rumor? > > ______________________________ Reply Separator > _________________________________ > Subject: Re: Questions, questions > Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet > Date: 5/21/98 1:26 PM > > Marty wrote: > > > Speaking of Zenith 248 computers, does anybody have a guesstimate on > > the amount of tempested Zenith 248's produced? They typically are > > labelled Zenith Inteq. > > We had 25 of them in one course area on Chanute AFB prior to it's close and > Most were sold at auction for pennies at govt surplus sales, mostly due to being "obsolete: for the puroose they served. Why not buy new all the time when it's someone else's money you're spending? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri May 22 08:20:28 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Zenith 248's References: <005c01bd84f1$144394c0$3067bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <35657B9C.794B3860@bbtel.com> Hotze wrote: > Hi. Are these the 286's that Zenith sold by the mass-quadrillions to the US > Gov't??? If so, they're pretty cool, when you get down to it. CPU's on a > backplane, they had a 386 upgrade, and even a 486 one, but the 386's didn't > sell, 486's were only prototypes, from what I can tell. > By pressing CRL+INS you could get into this WAY COOL Apple II like ROM > test program. Actaully it's CTL-ALT-INS and that brings up the MFM-200 "Monitor" program, which is essentially the CMOS setup and utilities. The ones you have are loaded with memory since they have RAM addon cards but the base memory is only 512k and is soldered to the processor card. > Pleanty of RAM, etc. Trust me, I know. Every single day of > the week, I USE ONE OF THESE in math class. Cool retro use, don't you > agree??? It runs WP 5.1, they weren't equipped with Windows, but MS-DOS 5.0 > (at least that's what I see, might have been 3.3), and some came with this > cool monitor that had a Amber/Green/Normal switch, but only worked well in > mono, not CGA mode. The Zenith 3 way monitors are only good in amber/green for text. Windows probably wasn't installed since either no one knew how to get Win 3.x to work in CGA mode or just because it's a Mac-like (old Mac) black and white "two color" mode. I just picked up one of the ones I originally sold on a trade-in for a 486 last night, still kicking. It has a Seagate ST-251-1 42mb HDD with MS-DOS 6.22, Windows 3.11 in Hercules mode, mouse, printer, etc. It was used in a business but they wanted to use a Win95 program so the 486 was the next logical step and still save $$$. Too bad they're so heavy to ship or I'd offer it for sale here. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri May 22 08:35:16 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: North Star Help (xpost) Message-ID: <35657F14.BD3EC52A@bbtel.com> Found this on the Obsolete Computer Helpline (http://ncsc.dni.us/fun/user/tcc/cmuseum/helpline/helpline.htm) and since all the buzz about NorthStar's on here lately I figured someone might contact this person. I'm sure many of you are even nearby this guy and could easily get him what he needs. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Troxell Vineland, NJ US - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 12:08:26 Wanted: Boot Disk (and any other) for a Z-100 North Star Advantage. If I remember correctly these are special/different format/# of sectors than all others. Any help would be greatly appreciated. This ex-Fuzzari of all PC's is dead in water w/o it. TIA, John Troxell ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 22 08:48:42 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? Message-ID: <199805221348.AA07104@world.std.com> The Ford analogy would be correct only if the purchase of the car allow you on certain key roads and forced you to use only one brad of gas with a funny nozzle. You could not buy the car without either. Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980522080106.440f4fc6@intellistar.net> This is too good! I just can't resist getting my two cents worth in! At 06:23 PM 5/21/98 -0700, you wrote: >Sure the DOS license was a big initial push, but to say it was solely >responsible for the success of Microsoft is like saying the Model T is >responsible for Ford having the best selling vehicle in America today. Then you had better go back and look at automotive history. Ford was just another car company among dozens, yes dozens, of similar companies until they brought out the model T. That put them in the lead and they've been there ever since. Since the model T they've bought up or plowed under most of the competion with the exception of the other major companies like GM and Chrysler. That seems to be the same strategy that MS is using. MS Hell! ALL companies do it! I used to work for Martin Marietta, look at all the competitors they've bought up in the last couple of years! > >Microsoft was a development products company, not an OS company. When I got >here in 1988, I remember seeing a revenue pie chart at the company meeting. >We were at around 60-70% revenue from development products like C++ & >FORTRAN, with a big slice from apps like Word & Multiplan, and DOS revenue >was a tiny slice. Exactly and I'm sure that Win 95 or Win 98 will also be a tiny slice. MS gives away the OS, then makes up the profit by selling you all the applications that require that OS. In a decade where everything had to be written directly >to the hardware to get any speed out of the 8088, you can hardly say that >the DOS license had much to do with the success of the dev products. > >Our first, all time most successful Windows app, Excel, that nuked the Lotus >1-2-3 monopoly through ease of use and customer demand alone, was _ported >from the Macintosh_. How exactly could we have leveraged our ownership of >Windows to make Excel successful when it wasn't even written for Windows? What do mean, wasn't written for Windows??? You certainly couldn't take a Mac disk and put it in a PC with Windows and run it! It may have ORIGINALLY been written for a Mac but it was certainly rewritten for Windows. The Windows very only looked and actly like the Mac version, the code was entirely rewritten. > >If IBM endorsing & bundling an OS makes it a monopoly, why is OS/2 dead? Because (1) MS very publicly announced that they were dropping support for it (2) MS (and others) never sold any significant application programs for it. That's exactly what a monoply is all about, the power to kill a rival product through direct action or in this case a lack of action. That's why DOJ and a lot of others would like to see MS's monopoly broken. Joe > >etc. > >Kai > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com] >Sent: Thursday, May 21, 1998 5:37 PM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: RE: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? > > >On Thu, 21 May 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > >> We weren't, and aren't, Orwellian characters, >> just folks trying to write software that people want to buy. Gee, I guess >> it worked! So sue us! > >I think one reason Microsoft is being sued is that Microsoft software does >not compete on the merits of the software alone. Windows 3.0 was the >first almost barely usable/tolerable version of Windows. I'm not a Mac >fan, but if you look at something like the Amiga and AmigaOS from 1985, it >was such a clearly better operating system and windowing system PC >environment compared to Microsoft's offering that if Microsoft had to >compete on technical merit alone, they would have been out of business >weeks after the Amiga's introduction. > >To suggest that Microsoft's success is due to writing software that people >*want* to buy is disingenuous. Microsoft's success is due solely to the >monopoly IBM gave them in 1982. To their credit, Microsoft is only about >five years behind the curve. If IBM had kept the monopoly to themselves, >we'd all be closer to ten years behind the curve. > >-- Doug > > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri May 22 10:00:57 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: <199805221349.AA07621@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at May 22, 98 09:49:14 am Message-ID: <9805221400.AA02274@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 975 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980522/7f777950/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at jps.net Fri May 22 09:42:51 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Guys, calm down! Please! Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980522074251.00e5a8c0@mail.jps.net> C'mon, guys... this whole MS vs. DoJ mess is turning into another list-cluttering slug-fest. Contrary to what MS would, apparently, like the world to believe, there are choices when it comes to OS's. Run what best suits your needs and desires, and don't bash others for doing the same. Caveat emptor! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri May 22 09:55:54 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? Message-ID: <001d01bd8591$ce2f4b40$1a6fbcc1@hotze> >> Linux is free and it may be better (it's abosolute hell to install) > >I'd disagree with you on "absolute hell". It's much less difficult >than the "historical" Unices that I've installed over the years on >PDP-11's. I have a shorter time installing Linux (Red Hat 5.0) than I do Windows 95/3.1!!! It's easy, if you're like me, using standard IDE/UDMA componets, a PCI bus, etc. >The only "difficult" Linux installs that I've done were when none of >the commonly-distributed kernels had support for some particular >device necessary for system operation (i.e. some obscure SCSI >host adapter), and I had to do a kernel build on another system >for this configuration first. SCSI makes things difficult. Seriously. On this 'ere machine, the SCSI contoller makes for... a partially cooled hell for instalation. >On the other hand, many "free" Unix ports I've seen are not only >absolute hell to install, mainly because the installation instructions/ >script are badly out of sync with the distributed binaries. NetBSD-VAX >is what springs to mind at the moment! I'll have to take your word on that. But then again, the first name usually denotes a total genius!!! (Tim O'Reilly, Tim Berners-Lee...) >Of course, it depends on what you're comparing against :-). From >your other comments it sounds like your standard of reference is >probably VMS, in which case I'll agree, by comparison Linux is >absolute hell. How 'bout comparing it to... FreeDOS? (http://www.freedos.org) I BTW, support this idea entirely, as after Windows 98, MS said they arn't going to include a DOS with Windows, so you'll need a DOS if MS isn't around/making OS's. Actually, I think that MS has had a smart strategy in recent months. Internet Explorer for Solaris, NetShow for Linux... I think that it's about time that MS dropped their dead-weight which gives them little profits and focus at what they're good at: Ease of use (on dirt cheap PC's), etc. Now, I kinda like Windows, like MacOS for the rest of us. But I think that if MS focused on other things, or stopped focusing on "We're the best at everything" and started thinking "We could save money, time, and PR funds by working on other OS's"... like making a cross NT-Linux.... that'd be COOL!!! >Tim. Yep. From engine at chac.org Fri May 22 10:03:49 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: <004501bd8552$61b05340$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980522080349.00f4dc70@pop.batnet.com> At 17:22 5/22/98 +1000, Desie wrote: >yes I am talking about the original 16kb-64kb model............ >I wounder how many IBM PCs are still out there with only cassette input and >16KB of RAM............ >no floppy drives............. >oh well Of the 16K-64K mb's there are reputed to have been two distinct series, called "Series 0" and "Series 1." A 16K, Series 0, no-floppy IBM PC is alleged to have sold at auction in the UK for over UKP 10,000 ....and my intuition (but no more than that) detects an institutional buyer. (And not auction like eBay -- auction like Christie's.) __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From Marty at itgonline.com Fri May 22 10:20:30 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... Message-ID: <1998May22.112005.1767.105637@smtp.itgonline.com> What exactly is the distinction between the "Series 0" and "Series 1?" To me a no floppy 5150 16KB-64KB would be missing a floppy controller and floppy drives. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Prices to pay for old computers... Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 5/22/98 11:10 AM At 17:22 5/22/98 +1000, Desie wrote: >yes I am talking about the original 16kb-64kb model............ >I wounder how many IBM PCs are still out there with only cassette input and >16KB of RAM............ >no floppy drives............. >oh well Of the 16K-64K mb's there are reputed to have been two distinct series, called "Series 0" and "Series 1." A 16K, Series 0, no-floppy IBM PC is alleged to have sold at auction in the UK for over UKP 10,000 ....and my intuition (but no more than that) detects an institutional buyer. (And not auction like eBay -- auction like Christie's.) __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998May22.111047.1767.43068; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:10:47 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id IAA19723; Fri, 22 May 1998 08:08:27 -0700 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id IAA60688 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 08:07:25 -0700 Received: from relay.batnet.com (relay1.batnet.com [204.188.144.18]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with SMTP id IAA29232 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 08:07:21 -0700 Received: from goldrush by relay.batnet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA01218; Fri, 22 May 1998 08:06:27 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980522080349.00f4dc70@pop.batnet.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 08:03:49 -0700 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Kip Crosby To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: <004501bd8552$61b05340$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chac@pop.batnet.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Fri May 22 10:31:17 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... Message-ID: >> Of the 16K-64K mb's there are reputed to have been two distinct series, >> called "Series 0" and "Series 1." A 16K, Series 0, no-floppy IBM PC is >> alleged to have sold at auction in the UK for over UKP 10,000 ....and my >> intuition (but no more than that) detects an institutional buyer. (And not >> auction like eBay -- auction like Christie's.) what were the differences between the two? I've got a 16KB model somewhere with cassette interface; it's got a floppy controller in it too, so I don't know whether that implies that the BIOS has been re-burnt at some point to handle this (it's funny joining this list - it's scary how much of this stuff I would have known at one point and have since forgotten!!). I seem to remember scrapping a good twelve or thirteen of these boxes a few years back working for a firm specialising in bringing old computer gear back to life (it was amazing how much strange stuff from the 70's and early 80's I saw pass through that place!). The local scrap dealer would only pay about 2 pounds for each system, so the whole lot just went in the skip out the back of the warehouse... it's funny how much perfectly good equipment I saw get slung out just because there wasn't space for it and we had several piles of spares, seems a shame considering that someone somewhere would have made use of it!! back on topic though, what cassette unit could be connected up to the original PC machines? Was it a custom IBM unit only (similar to the way the C64's only accept Commodore tape decks), or could anything be used if a cable was made up? cheers Jules > From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri May 22 10:34:50 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Did you get the directions? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980522074251.00e5a8c0@mail.jps.net> from "Bruce Lane" at May 22, 98 07:42:51 am Message-ID: <199805221534.IAA20471@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Bruce: I hope that you got the directions. Have a safe drive! Call me to arrange a meet for the tape dropoff. I should be home most of the weekend. Kevin (phone number again: 435-7730) -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri May 22 10:48:56 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Did you get the directions? In-Reply-To: <199805221534.IAA20471@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at May 22, 98 08:34:50 am Message-ID: <199805221548.IAA23835@fraser.sfu.ca> Arggh, that should have gone to Bruce rather than the list! Sorry for the unwarranted noise! Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From engine at chac.org Fri May 22 10:46:50 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: <1998May22.112005.1767.105637@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980522084650.00f803a0@pop.batnet.com> At 11:20 5/22/98 -0400, Marty wrote: > What exactly is the distinction between the "Series 0" and "Series 1?" > To me a no floppy 5150 16KB-64KB would be missing a floppy controller > and floppy drives. I don't know and have never known. Unless I miss my guess, the tech ref was the same for all 16-64's, so there's probably no telling from docs unless someone has access to IBM internal memos. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From engine at chac.org Fri May 22 11:02:47 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980522090247.00fa0c80@pop.batnet.com> At 16:31 5/22/98 +0100, you wrote: >back on topic though, what cassette unit could be connected up to the >original PC machines? Was it a custom IBM unit only (similar to the way >the C64's only accept Commodore tape decks), or could anything be used >if a cable was made up? There was a discussion on here a while back about whether IBM had ever made cassette decks to attach to that port, and IIRC, the outcome was inconclusive. If such a thing existed, certainly there were never many of them. In general, the favorite commodity cassette recorder for the purpose was one of the long Panasonics with the carrying handle. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri May 22 11:11:03 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Vax 785 and microcode Message-ID: <13357724293.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Here's a quote from a DEC manual I have: "The VAX 785 features fast RAM microcode..." Does that mean the 785 loads all it's microcode from the floppy? I've located the rest of a VAX 785 CPU, and I can have it, but the brakes in my car have failed (Rather spectacularly, I might add...) so they'll have to wait a day or two... Another thing: The emergency brakes in a Chevy Sprint will NOT stop the car in a hurry. They will, however, cause the car to SKID in a hurry... (No, I didn't hit anyone. But I did scare the bejesus out of myself.) ------- From engine at chac.org Fri May 22 11:41:32 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Vax 785 and microcars In-Reply-To: <13357724293.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980522094132.00f74de0@pop.batnet.com> At 09:11 5/22/98 -0700, Daniel wrote: >I've located the rest of a VAX 785 CPU, and I can have it.... >Another thing: The emergency brakes in a Chevy Sprint.... ....wait.... The man hauls around big VAXen in a Chevy Sprint?! A Chevy Sprint is a rebadged Suzuki Alto! It's the size of a big beach umbrella! I'm impressed! __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri May 22 11:46:44 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Vax 785 and microcars In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980522094132.00f74de0@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <13357730790.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Hauls big VAXen in a Sprint?] I'm young, I'm nuts, and all I had was the CPU board set. I *DID* haul my PDP-11/44 in it though... (Tower, this is Grasshopper, we are 5deg nose high, give us wings and we're clear to go!) [Sprint is a rebadged] He's not kidding. My stepdad was able to repair the engine with motorcycle parts. It's a Suzuki moto engine turned sideways, with a few changes. ------- From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri May 22 11:48:19 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Vax 785 and microcars In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980522094132.00f74de0@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: Reminds me about the first time I stompped the brakes on my Chevy Citation. Side window became the front view real quick. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Fri, 22 May 1998, Kip Crosby wrote: > At 09:11 5/22/98 -0700, Daniel wrote: > >I've located the rest of a VAX 785 CPU, and I can have it.... > >Another thing: The emergency brakes in a Chevy Sprint.... > > ....wait.... > The man hauls around big VAXen in a Chevy Sprint?! > A Chevy Sprint is a rebadged Suzuki Alto! > It's the size of a big beach umbrella! > I'm impressed! > > __________________________________________ > Kip Crosby engine@chac.org > http://www.chac.org/index.html > Computer History Association of California > > > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri May 22 13:11:33 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980522080349.00f4dc70@pop.batnet.com> from "Kip Crosby" at May 22, 98 08:03:49 am Message-ID: <199805221811.LAA28289@saul5.u.washington.edu> > Of the 16K-64K mb's there are reputed to have been two distinct series, > called "Series 0" and "Series 1." A 16K, What distinguishes the two series? I hope that "16K" means "16/64K model" as opposed to "actually equipped with 16K of memory." -- Derek From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri May 22 13:56:30 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Finds and questions Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980521163603.30a7e4f8@ricochet.net> At 12:47 PM 5/21/98 -0500, you wrote: >> Nope, HMR. First off, for those not in the know, HMR is HMR USA (see ), a "global recycler". What they do mostly is take in a *HUGE* warehouse full of older computers and ship them overseas where they'll be used. They also sell stuff to individuals on Fridays and alternate Saturdays. >I called them once to inquire about their inventory, and I got the >impression that they were asking for real money (like $100 for obsolete, >err, classic, laptops). Do they drop prices on the weekend? It's all very subjective. You go in, find what you want, ask how much, and then haggle. $100 should get you a '386 Compaq, probably with docking station. But you never know. I've walked away from stuff I really wanted because the guy said too high a price. (Like my DG-1; the first time I saw it, I think the guy said $50, the next time, I think a different guy said like $20 or so.) >> You wouldn't know what type of HD is in there, would you? > >I think they were probably using Conners. It's easy to check. Pop off the >plastic feet on the back panel to reveal two screws. Remove them, and >then pop off the lid. Cool. I'll check it out. Thanks! >BTW, Doug Coward seems to have the world's supply of T100's, but he says >they're not laptops. I always assumed the rectangle in the upper right >corner I had seen in pix was an LCD, but apparently not (is it a cartridge >slot?). Hmmm... I may still have to get one. Have take a look at a pic. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From Marty at itgonline.com Fri May 22 14:06:39 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers Message-ID: <1998May22.150547.1767.105766@smtp.itgonline.com> I have a 16KB-64KB 5150, it has one row of 16KB dips soldered in place with three rows of 16KB dips socketed. Pull the three rows of socketed 16KB dips and it's a 16KB 5150 equipped with 16KB of soldered in memory. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers...) Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 5/22/98 2:18 PM > Of the 16K-64K mb's there are reputed to have been two distinct series, > called "Series 0" and "Series 1." A 16K, What distinguishes the two series? I hope that "16K" means "16/64K model" as opposed to "actually equipped with 16K of memory." -- Derek ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998May22.141838.1767.43121; Fri, 22 May 1998 14:18:39 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id LAA05331; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:11:38 -0700 Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id LAA15582 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:11:35 -0700 Received: from saul5.u.washington.edu (dpeschel@saul5.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.3]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id LAA49024 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:11:34 -0700 Received: (from dpeschel@localhost) by saul5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) id LAA28289 for classiccmp@u.washington.edu; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:11:33 - 0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805221811.LAA28289@saul5.u.washington.edu> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: "D. Peschel" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980522080349.00f4dc70@pop.batnet.com> from "Kip Crosby" at May 22, 98 08:03:49 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From engine at chac.org Fri May 22 14:08:40 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers...) In-Reply-To: <199805221811.LAA28289@saul5.u.washington.edu> References: <3.0.5.32.19980522080349.00f4dc70@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980522120840.00e606b0@pop.batnet.com> At 11:11 5/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >> Of the 16K-64K mb's there are reputed to have been two distinct series, >> called "Series 0" and "Series 1." A 16K, > >What distinguishes the two series? As noted, I don't know. I'm hoping that someone like Tony does. >I hope that "16K" means "16/64K model" as opposed to "actually equipped with >16K of memory." Your hopes are dashed. The only pricey IBM PCs are the ones that had 16K installed at the factory and weren't upgraded. The 64K ones are relatively common, although worth keeping; it's like the difference between a Lisa One and a Lisa 2. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From Marty at itgonline.com Fri May 22 14:23:10 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old Message-ID: <1998May22.152254.1767.105770@smtp.itgonline.com> Are you saying that the original 16KB 5150 had four rows of 4KB dips? ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 5/22/98 3:17 PM At 11:11 5/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >> Of the 16K-64K mb's there are reputed to have been two distinct series, >> called "Series 0" and "Series 1." A 16K, > >What distinguishes the two series? As noted, I don't know. I'm hoping that someone like Tony does. >I hope that "16K" means "16/64K model" as opposed to "actually equipped with >16K of memory." Your hopes are dashed. The only pricey IBM PCs are the ones that had 16K installed at the factory and weren't upgraded. The 64K ones are relatively common, although worth keeping; it's like the difference between a Lisa One and a Lisa 2. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998May22.151747.1767.43132; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:17:48 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id MAA01354; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:09:17 -0700 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id MAA18246 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:09:12 -0700 Received: from relay.batnet.com (relay1.batnet.com [204.188.144.18]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with SMTP id MAA25664 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:09:11 -0700 Received: from goldrush by relay.batnet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA03963; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:08:41 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980522120840.00e606b0@pop.batnet.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 12:08:40 -0700 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Kip Crosby To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers...) In-Reply-To: <199805221811.LAA28289@saul5.u.washington.edu> References: <3.0.5.32.19980522080349.00f4dc70@pop.batnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chac@pop.batnet.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Fri May 22 14:43:32 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: System/34 parts available Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980522144332.007d98f0@wingate> Since there was talk here in the recent past of reviving one of these. I found the following on comp.sys.ibm.sys3x.misc: > I have about 40 logic cards, all the power supplies and an 8 inch floppy > drive from a > System/34. All are for sale for best offer. Could supply list of numbers > if interested. > > Norm Helmkay helmkay@ibm.net Don't reply to me, I'm just an innocent bystander. -- David Wollmann dwollmann@ibmhelp.com From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Fri May 22 14:55:22 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers...) In-Reply-To: <199805221811.LAA28289@saul5.u.washington.edu> References: <3.0.5.32.19980522080349.00f4dc70@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980522145522.0093ab40@wingate> At 11:11 AM 5/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >> Of the 16K-64K mb's there are reputed to have been two distinct series, >> called "Series 0" and "Series 1." A 16K, > >What distinguishes the two series? > >I hope that "16K" means "16/64K model" as opposed to "actually equipped with >16K of memory." > >-- Derek > There were two different models. The later model has a "B" stenciled in white ink above the keyboard connector and was 256K on the mobo with hard disk support and a couple other enhancements. There was a ROM BIOS upgrade to allow the 16K model to support 640K RAM and a hard disk. I haven't seen the ROM in years--last time I found them there was some guy who had a whole box of sticks and was charging an arm and a leg--and getting it. I think you can probably just dupe the ROM from the 256K box, but i haven't tried it. -- David Wollmann dwollmann@ibmhelp.com From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri May 22 15:03:27 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers...) References: <3.0.5.32.19980522080349.00f4dc70@pop.batnet.com> <3.0.5.32.19980522120840.00e606b0@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <3565DA0F.892371C5@bbtel.com> > >I hope that "16K" means "16/64K model" as opposed to "actually equipped with > >16K of memory." Yup, came with 16k soldered down and room to add DRAM up to a whopping 64k. Likewise the 64/256 board is the same, 64k soldered on, and room up to 156k. The AT 5160 only goes to 512k on the board.... I have one of each, a 16k and a 64k. The 64k board is in it's original case with an original type monitor and keyboard. I'm not sure whether or not the 16k board even works. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri May 22 15:46:37 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980522120840.00e606b0@pop.batnet.com> from "Kip Crosby" at May 22, 98 12:08:40 pm Message-ID: <199805222046.NAA22333@saul4.u.washington.edu> > >What distinguishes the two series? > > As noted, I don't know. I'm hoping that someone like Tony does. I saw the other message on this topic after I sent mine. > >I hope that "16K" means "16/64K model" as opposed to "actually equipped with > >16K of memory." > > Your hopes are dashed. The only pricey IBM PCs are the ones that had 16K > installed at the factory and weren't upgraded. The 64K ones are relatively > common, although worth keeping; it's like the difference between a Lisa One > and a Lisa 2. That's absurd (bordering on perverse) -- what could you DO with a machine like that? (Yes, run BASIC and use cassettes... I know.) -- Derek From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 22 15:53:14 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: ADTEK System Science VEM16 In-Reply-To: <3565DA0F.892371C5@bbtel.com> Message-ID: I picked up a nice single-board 8088 from 1982 today. It has an on-board keypad and 7 7-segment LEDs. It's made by ADTEK, apparently a Japanese SBC maker. Oddly, it also has microphone and earphone jacks! Anybody know anything about this oddball? -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 22 15:08:58 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: from "Julian Richardson" at May 22, 98 04:31:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 725 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980522/cb8e2331/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 22 15:11:32 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980522084650.00f803a0@pop.batnet.com> from "Kip Crosby" at May 22, 98 08:46:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 888 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980522/b7b18856/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 22 14:20:26 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Help aligning Kaypro disk drives? In-Reply-To: <199805221143.EAA18573@saul7.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at May 22, 98 04:43:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4257 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980522/806ac597/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 22 15:31:26 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Vax 785 and microcars In-Reply-To: <13357730790.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at May 22, 98 09:46:44 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 667 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980522/132fbbb2/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Fri May 22 17:50:42 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: <199805221348.AA07104@world.std.com> Message-ID: > They also hold a peice of the internet backbone. No, they buy access. Very few of the dialup online services own backbone. William Donzelli william@ans.net From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri May 22 18:14:01 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... Message-ID: <290c035d.356606ba@aol.com> In a message dated 98-05-22 11:32:19 EDT, you write: << back on topic though, what cassette unit could be connected up to the original PC machines? Was it a custom IBM unit only (similar to the way the C64's only accept Commodore tape decks), or could anything be used if a cable was made up? >> i asked an old ibmer at work, and he said there indeed was a fru number for the cassette cable AND a tape deck! i'll have to remind him to look and see what the numbers are. david From engine at chac.org Fri May 22 18:26:04 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Help aligning Kaypro disk drives? In-Reply-To: References: <199805221143.EAA18573@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980522162604.00f95c70@pop.batnet.com> My least favorite disk drive noise is "skrch!" Think Seagate. (and no, I don't mean they're all bad. I've got two Medalist 1080's here that have been running essentially 24/7 for two-plus years, and they're fine. But when you get a bad Seagate it goes "skrch!" and you throw it away, and I know from lugubrious experience that you're not going to get the data back off it just by wrapping it in plastic and sticking it in the freezer overnight.) __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From donm at cts.com Fri May 22 18:37:47 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Help aligning Kaypro disk drives? In-Reply-To: <199805221143.EAA18573@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > A while ago I got a Kaypro 4'84 system for free and have been trying to bring > it back to a state of stability and usefulness. The system as a whole was in > good shape; my problems have been with the disk drives. > > I had hoped it was "only" old, worn-out disks that were causing the problem > (and the disks are worn-out, as tests with 22DISK on a school PC show) but the > drives themselves seem to be flaky. (Either that, or the new Verbatim disks > I bought are substandard.) My worst fear is that the drives are corrupting the > disks somehow. (Can this happen even when no writing is involved?) Remotely possible, but not likely. > I have two spare drives; one is evidently SSDD and the other is DSDD -- I have > not tested them. Only the DSDD drive is really suitable. These are, IIRC, > 96-tpi MFM drives. They are made by TEC. (Not the same as TEAC, I suppose.) With your PRO-884 MAX ROM, you should be able to install and use the 96-tpi drive and it should double step and read your 48-tpi disks. As a general rule, however, it is not wise to write to a disk that has been formatted in a 48-tpi drive. > I would just put one in, except that I'm not sure if I need to do anything to > align them. Even if I did need to, I undoubtedly don't have the equipment. > Is alignment really important? What about on new drives? Alignment is somewhat important, but only critical if you are moving disks between different machines. Since you were able to read the disks that I sent you, I would presume that they are not all that far out. > Could cleanliness be a problem? (I cleaned the heads with a head-cleaning kit > a while ago; I put the dust cover on the computer for some time but stopped; > however, the keyboard latches in front of the drives anyway. I keep the doors > closed and the shipping inserts in the drives; I definitely have been careless > about the order of inserting/removing the inserts and opening/closing the > drives and turning on/off the computer.) Your 'keep clean' precautions are overkill unless you live in the midst of a dustbowl. While it is always wise to eject the disk before shutdown, I have not lost a disk that way in years on any of the various machines that I use - CP/M and DOS. > It's very unsettling to think of my software eroding as I watch. I haven't > found replacements for some of it. I've tried using 22DISK; there are two > problems with this: 1) It doesn't like my formats very much, and 2) I've been > using PC's in the computer lab and I don't trust those drives any more than > mine! I may haul an ex-roommate's Korean '386 box out of the closet if I get > desperate. Sydex' 22DISK is quite capable of handling the Kaypro formats without problem. It may be, as you suggest, that the drives on the lab machines are the problem. If possible, I would suggest booting to DOS rather than running in a DOS window when you run 22DISK, though. > The Apple ][ disk drives I've seen have had flawless performance; even PC 5.25" > drives seem to do very well. I'm getting very tired of hearing my machine > go "grkgrkgrkgrk ... grkgrkgrkgrk ... grkgrkgrkgrk ..." (It's one of those > sounds that is instantly annoying and recognizable by pure instinct as a Very > Bad Sound. I wonder what a list of those sounds would look like?) I'm not sure, but I think that it has to be terminated with something like: AAAAARRRRGGHH!!! Oh, @&%$!!!! - don > Thanks, > > -- Derek > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 22 18:09:59 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: <3565DA0F.892371C5@bbtel.com> from "Russ/Alice Blakeman" at May 22, 98 03:03:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1768 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980523/d00f46be/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri May 22 18:52:25 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: System/34 parts available Message-ID: <19980522235226.14429.qmail@hotmail.com> If only he had some 20-amp 220-v current stored in a superconductor... *sigh* can't always get what you want. > >Since there was talk here in the recent past of reviving one of these. I >found the following on comp.sys.ibm.sys3x.misc: > >> I have about 40 logic cards, all the power supplies and an 8 inch floppy >> drive from a >> System/34. All are for sale for best offer. Could supply list of numbers >> if interested. >> >> Norm Helmkay helmkay@ibm.net > >Don't reply to me, I'm just an innocent bystander. > >-- >David Wollmann >dwollmann@ibmhelp.com > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri May 22 19:12:42 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Mac POrtable system Message-ID: <19980523001242.6327.qmail@hotmail.com> About a year ago, I got a Mac Portable, which I really like. Back then, unfortunately, I had the tendency to upgrade everything to the most recent version, so I installed System 7.0.1 on it. Since then, I've wanted to play with an earlier OS to save RAM. I will eventually download OS 6.0.5, but for now, I just picked up WordPerfect 1.0.2, which has OS 4.2 on the disks. FInally, my question: when I try to boot off the disk, it freezes during the "Welcome to Macintosh" screen. It shows up fine when I boot of the hard drive, and Norton Disk Doctor doesn't show any problems. Ideas? In general, what is the earliest version the portable can run? By the way, it looks like I have all the needed files on the disk. PS, what should I pay for an ImageWriter II? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From djenner at halcyon.com Fri May 22 19:30:37 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:03 2005 Subject: Mac POrtable system References: <19980523001242.6327.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <356618AD.EC4372F5@halcyon.com> http://product.info.apple.com/productinfo/specsheets/Portables/ Mac_Portable.html says: Software Addressing Modes: 24-bit Original System Software: 6.0.4 Original Enabler: none ROM ID: $0378 ROM Version: n/a ROM Size: 256K AppleTalk Version: 52 System Software Supported: 6.0.5 6.0.7 6.0.8 7.0 7.0.1 7.1 7.1.1, (Pro) 7.5 6.0.4 7.5.1 7.5.3 Max Eskin wrote: > > About a year ago, I got a Mac Portable, which I really like. Back > then, unfortunately, I had the tendency to upgrade everything to the > most recent version, so I installed System 7.0.1 on it. Since then, > I've wanted to play with an earlier OS to save RAM. I will eventually > download OS 6.0.5, but for now, I just picked up WordPerfect 1.0.2, > which has OS 4.2 on the disks. FInally, my question: when I try to > boot off the disk, it freezes during the "Welcome to Macintosh" > screen. It shows up fine when I boot of the hard drive, and > Norton Disk Doctor doesn't show any problems. Ideas? In general, > what is the earliest version the portable can run? > By the way, it looks like I have all the needed files on the disk. > PS, what should I pay for an ImageWriter II? > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri May 22 19:29:35 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980522172819.4dcfe044@ricochet.net> At 04:16 PM 5/21/98 PDT, you wrote: >article says the Apple got their idea from xerox in 1979, and MS >got their ideas from Apple, and now they have copied the Mac w/Win98 I quote from "The Mac Bathroom Reader" by Owen W. Linzmayer (a non-technical history of the Mac): "In return, Apple was allowed two afternoon visits to the PARC labs. When Jobs first visited with Atkinson in November 1979, he saw with his own eyes what all the fuss was about. He was so excited that he returned in December..." Actually, Jobs would have known all about it earlier if he had paid any attention to Jef Raskin, who had been trying to get him to visit PARC much sooner. >The article in the link argues that Win98 is much worse than the mac, >which I agree with. I am wondering about its statement that Apple >knew all about GUI before 1979 with their Lisa. AFAIK, the lisa >is ~1982... I dunno about Win98 vs. the Mac; I haven't seen either Win98 or MacOS 8, but yes, the way I see it, Apple stole from Xerox, Microsoft stole from Apple, Apple sued lots of people and won, Xerox Sued Apple and lost, etc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri May 22 19:29:39 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980522173120.3d370a22@ricochet.net> At 06:23 PM 5/21/98 -0700, you wrote: >Sure the DOS license was a big initial push, but to say it was solely >responsible for the success of Microsoft is like saying the Model T is >responsible for Ford having the best selling vehicle in America today. True! You'd be leaving out the amazing stupidity of the american public. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri May 22 19:34:26 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Mac POrtable system In-Reply-To: <19980523001242.6327.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980522193426.006da4f8@pop3.concentric.net> It's supports 6.0.5 to 7.1.1 John At 05:12 PM 5/22/98 PDT, you wrote: >About a year ago, I got a Mac Portable, which I really like. Back >then, unfortunately, I had the tendency to upgrade everything to the >most recent version, so I installed System 7.0.1 on it. Since then, >I've wanted to play with an earlier OS to save RAM. I will eventually >download OS 6.0.5, but for now, I just picked up WordPerfect 1.0.2, >which has OS 4.2 on the disks. FInally, my question: when I try to >boot off the disk, it freezes during the "Welcome to Macintosh" >screen. It shows up fine when I boot of the hard drive, and >Norton Disk Doctor doesn't show any problems. Ideas? In general, >what is the earliest version the portable can run? >By the way, it looks like I have all the needed files on the disk. >PS, what should I pay for an ImageWriter II? > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri May 22 19:52:37 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... References: Message-ID: <35661DD4.1717358E@bbtel.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The pinout of the PC cassette connector is the same as that on a TRS-80, > and the same cable works. My guess is this is not a coincidence - IBM > probably intended PC owners to go to the local Tandy/Radio Shack and buy a > cassette recorder and cable. Or maybe it was a standard interface for the time, like RS-232 is supposed to be.... > > the C64's only accept Commodore tape decks), or could anything be used > > if a cable was made up? My understanding of Commode-Ore is that there is a chip within the cassette interface that allows the pooter to talk to the cassette drive. Of course Commodore (like many others, Apple comes to mind) was very good at keeping most of their stuff proprietry in some (even small) way to dissuade the owners from buying aftermarket. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri May 22 19:54:18 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: System/34 parts available In-Reply-To: <19980522235226.14429.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <13357819548.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [No power for S/34] It's the same as Washing Machine Power. you know... (220VAC/1PH) By the way, I have your S/34 PSU pinsouts for you - but you have to wait until I get to SSI. (Found them in a /34 repair manual.) ------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri May 22 20:05:37 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old References: Message-ID: <356620E1.138A2FC6@bbtel.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > >I hope that "16K" means "16/64K model" as opposed to "actually equipped with > > > > > >16K of memory." > > > > Yup, came with 16k soldered down and room to add DRAM up to a whopping 64k. > > So what people are saying is that if you find one with all 4 rows of 16K > chips fitted, it becomes more valuable if 3 of the rows are pulled? > Strange... You can get one with just the fixed DRAM and insert more all you want, and if you get one populated and want it stripped to the bare 16k then you just get out your "chip puller" (the can opener on my utility knife is mine) and remove the extra rows. No big deal. Finding the boards in either configuration is the main idea here, you can always get 4164 DRAMs. > This is the sort of thing which will make me leave the computer > collecting world, alas. I can remember when computer collecting was fun - > you went to a radio rally, or to the local(ish) junk shop and came home > with a pile of bits. Fiddled with them, got them working, hacked about a > bit, modified things a bit, and learnt a lot. Now, if we're going to have > high-priced machines for no good reason, then I'm outa here... It still is! It always will be a tinkerer's heaven to get a machine you know absolutely nothing about and get it to a level where you know enough to be dangerous and maybe even get it to work. That's the challenge, whether it's collecting old radios, model trains, pooters, cars, etc. > > Likewise the 64/256 board is the same, 64k soldered on, and room up to 156k. The > > AT 5160 only goes to 512k on the board.... > ^^^^ > You mean 5170. The 5160 is the XT. The fingers and the brain just don't get together much anymore ;-o > Talking of XTs, there are officially 2 versions of that motherboard - the > 64K-256K board and the 256K-604K board. It's not generally known how to > turn the former into the latter, so here goes (assuming you want 640K in > the end): Wouldn't that hurt, 640k in "the end"?? > Remove the board from the case. > > Remove the 64K DRAMs from banks 0 and 1. Put 256K *1 (41256 or > equivalent) chips in these 2 banks. Put/leave 64K chips in banks 2 and 3. > > Put a 74S158 multiplexer chip in the empty socket near the front of the > board, same way round as all the other chips near it. > > Solder a link between (I think) pads E1 and E2 near the right hand edge > of the the board. > > That's it - you now have 640K on the motherboard. I've done this to > serveral XT's (and to my 5155 portable), with no problems. The schematics > in the techref are otherwise indentical. I have done this now to at least 8 XT's and it works fine on all of them, and it appears that maybe IBM incorporated the same when they started manufacturing the 640k series. The boards look very similar otherwise. When I had this nasty little Sanyo MBC-55x machine we did a similar hack that made it 768k with a switch to bring it down to 640k (for programs that couldn't deal with the overdose). Cost about $15 in parts besides the extra DRAM chips and ungodly hours of leaning over a soldering iron making delicate heat sensitive stacks of DRAMS 3 high and hooking up a pin of each chip to a wire that went to a separate 74 series chip. After doiing that mod to over 20 machines of friends and those I had mailed to me, I permanently swore off on the little silver wastebaskets. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From gram at cnct.com Fri May 22 20:21:10 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? References: Message-ID: <35662486.56AEDEA3@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > I'm really sorry about my last message. It was intended to be private to > Doug only. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com Don't be sorry. It was accurate and to the point. My own Everex P133 notebook came with '95 pre-installed, I begrudge the extra cost. On its 1.3 GB disk it has 1 1GB Linux partition (I fips'd it the week [the day] I got it), I backed up the '95 garbage, it now runs Caldera OpenDOS (I haven't felt the need to upgrade to the DR-DOS that it's been renamed back to) for the rare occasions when I boot in non-linux mode. OpenDOS is _much_ more stable as the foundation when I'm using WABI for those occasional work-related tasks requiring Win compatibility than missed-DOS was. And yes, everything is formally licensed except for the Microsoft scat that came preinstalled -- I have to take the vendor's word on that part. And don't care, since it's not there anymore anyway. Sorry Sam, these flamewars _will_ spring up and die down occasionally. We're here to discuss classic computers, but there _will_ be times when things stray from the main line. The idea is not to take life too seriously -- eventually we die whether we had fun or not. My CoCo's for instance are a _lot_ more fun than my Windoze systems -- but one of the latter is presently the main NFS server here at home (though my wife doesn't _know_ that I did that to her under-utilized P-166). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From scottk5 at ibm.net Fri May 22 20:27:32 1998 From: scottk5 at ibm.net (Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) Message-ID: <01BD85C8.6F2B3D20@slip166-72-159-84.nc.us.ibm.net> -----Original Message----- From: Russ/Alice Blakeman [SMTP:rhblake@bbtel.com] Sent: Friday, May 22, 1998 9:06 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old ...... When I had this nasty little Sanyo MBC-55x machine....... Just saw one of these at a friend's place tonight and she was interested in getting rid of it. I think the model number was MBC-5510 (???). She said she also had a printer that came with it. What is it? What would be a reasonable price to offer for it? Kirk Scott scottk5@ibm.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2349 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980522/1b54ac90/attachment.bin From gram at cnct.com Fri May 22 20:38:55 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... References: <004501bd8552$61b05340$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> Message-ID: <356628AF.9871C70F@cnct.com> Desie Hay wrote: > yes I am talking about the original 16kb-64kb model............ > I wounder how many IBM PCs are still out there with only cassette input and > 16KB of RAM............ > no floppy drives............. > oh well Probably less than there are TRS-80 Color Computers with 4K RAM and non-Extended BASIC, since those still run the programs designed for them. (I have a couple of those CoCos, then again I prefer Motorola to Intel even on my bad days -- work, where I have to suck up to those damned NT Pentia). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri May 22 20:37:48 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) References: <01BD85C8.6F2B3D20@slip166-72-159-84.nc.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <3566286C.29805A3B@bbtel.com> Kirk Scott wrote: > ...... When I had this nasty little Sanyo MBC-55x machine....... > > Just saw one of these at a friend's place tonight and she was interested in getting rid of it. I think the model number was MBC-5510 (???). She said she also had a printer that came with it. What is it? What would be a reasonable price to offer for it? That's the older type machines (4 digit model number) and not the "MSDOS compatible" (yeah right) that I was speaking of. I believe the 5510 was a CP/M machine that ran a Z80 processor and someone else in the list may hae more exposure to those. The units I'm speaking of are in the model numbers of MBC-550 (one SSDD drive), MBC-555 (2 SSDD drives), MBC-550-2 (one DSDD drive) and MBC-555-2 (2 DSDD drives) and other similar numbers that are three place 55x series model numbers. It ran an 8088 4.77mhz processor, had Apple bitmap graphics, Apple style DIP joystick plugin, composite video out and a number of very expensive proprietary add-ons. The serial port was an option and used the 8251 USART instead of the IBM style 8250. Very fun when you wanted to get PC communications software to work on it without reworking the software through patches to make it see and accept the 8251. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri May 22 20:39:24 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: osborne? Message-ID: <939fc33c.356628cd@aol.com> i decided to make a thrift store run and found two things of interest; an apple hd20 external scsi drive unit with the top off. had a regular old seagate st225N in it which surprised me. also found an osborne, complete with keyboard and dual floppies. i have seen one osborne before, but this one was all grey and had the word OSBORNE molded into the case (or was it the keyboard?) it also had a plastic trap door for the power cable and had a cheap plastic feel to it, unlike the earlier one i saw last year. can anyone place the time period it was manufactured? it was $10, so i might go back and get it after the holiday. david From gram at cnct.com Fri May 22 20:48:07 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... References: Message-ID: <35662AD7.F429751C@cnct.com> Julian Richardson wrote: > back on topic though, what cassette unit could be connected up to the > original PC machines? Was it a custom IBM unit only (similar to the way > the C64's only accept Commodore tape decks), or could anything be used > if a cable was made up? A Radio Shack CTR-41 with a standard TRS-80 cassette cable. IBM never got into the audio business. (There were other cassette decks that worked, but that was the cable -- after all these years I've forgotten the stock number but it is still in the inventory though a particular store might have to make a special order). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Fri May 22 20:53:50 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: [Rare systems] & Garry Kildor References: <007201bd8552$e8ee8480$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> Message-ID: <35662C2E.14912DF2@cnct.com> Desie Hay wrote: > >I'm sure a lot of people wish Bill Gates were in Gary's shoes (so to > speak). > > > > > well yes I suppose........but didnt Garry get killed in a bar fight a few > years ago??? No, he died of a heart attack after a good number of years on the PBS "Computer Chronicles" show. > No old Billy Gates has brought some good into this world............ > but 99.9999% of what he has done is just to steal and steal.......... Bill Gates and I are a month apart in age. My zits cleared up, he became a billionaire. I guess we're even. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Fri May 22 21:06:18 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Help aligning Kaypro disk drives? References: <199805221143.EAA18573@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <35662F19.664B4CF8@cnct.com> D. Peschel wrote: > > A while ago I got a Kaypro 4'84 system for free and have been trying to bring > it back to a state of stability and usefulness. The system as a whole was in > good shape; my problems have been with the disk drives. > I have two spare drives; one is evidently SSDD and the other is DSDD -- I have > not tested them. Only the DSDD drive is really suitable. These are, IIRC, > 96-tpi MFM drives. They are made by TEC. (Not the same as TEAC, I suppose.) _Maybe_ a Kaypro 4 can use 96-TPI drives, but I wouldn't bet the ranch. You want 48 tpi drives - real DD, not 96 tpi, QD or worse HD. There are a gagload of such drives available, gut any 8088 PC you find at the curbside. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Fri May 22 21:19:39 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Questions, questions References: <1998May21.133900.1767.105314@smtp.itgonline.com> <356579B0.AC752168@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <3566323B.E821A899@cnct.com> Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote: > Most were sold at auction for pennies at govt surplus sales, mostly due to being > "obsolete: for the puroose they served. Why not buy new all the time when it's > someone else's money you're spending? Easy, Russ. People might think you're a libertarian or something. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Fri May 22 21:38:22 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Vax 785 and microcode References: <13357724293.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3566369E.494FB0E4@cnct.com> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > Here's a quote from a DEC manual I have: > > "The VAX 785 features fast RAM microcode..." > > Does that mean the 785 loads all it's microcode from the floppy? > I've located the rest of a VAX 785 CPU, and I can have it, > but the brakes in my car have failed (Rather spectacularly, I might add...) > so they'll have to wait a day or two... > > Another thing: The emergency brakes in a Chevy Sprint will NOT stop > the car in a hurry. > They will, however, cause the car to SKID in a hurry... > (No, I didn't hit anyone. But I did scare the bejesus out of myself.) > ------- A teacher of mine told me many years ago that if you've never wet your pants behind the wheel, you should never try commuting in New York or Los Angeles -- you're not braced for the stress. (I spent many years commuting Los Angeles, now working in NYC I prefer to take the train, since even the cab drivers are suicidal idiots -- plus there's this stupid law that you _can't_ turn right at a red light -- but apparently going straight through red lights is OK or rules against it are unenforced -- probably the cops find it safer to chase those making the turn.) -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Fri May 22 22:07:19 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Vax 785 and microcars References: Message-ID: <35663D67.5B400523@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > [Hauls big VAXen in a Sprint?] > > I'm young, I'm nuts, and all I had was the CPU board set. > > I *DID* haul my PDP-11/44 in it though... > > If that's the car I think it is, I know somebody who managed to get a > PERQ + monitor and bits into one... > > > > > (Tower, this is Grasshopper, we are 5deg nose high, give us wings and we're > > clear to go!) > > I don't drive, but I actually managed to convince my father to buy a > Citroen BX (with that wonderful suspension system) as it's ideal for > shifting computers about it. It'll stay level with a Sun 3/260, PDP11/44, > PDP8/e, Zilog unix box, NS* horizon, Acorn System 4, manuals, printsets, > spares, etc in it... Yeah, but you Brits have got _weird_ concepts in transportation. The Morris Minor for instance never should have been licensed as an automobile -- a four-wheeled powered bicycle on its best day. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From red at bears.org Fri May 22 22:05:53 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Apple ][ stuff Message-ID: Hi. I found the following Apple ][ bits today and being the Apple neophyte that I am, I could use some information on them. Orange Micro Grappler +. How is this better than the Orange Micro Printer Interface that I got with my ][plus? I assume the quad DIP switch at the back end is to set communications parameters. Looking at the traces I'm guessing it's a serial interface. Mega-Bit RAM card. Looks pretty boring actually, but I don't see any obvious way to cable it to the motherboard RAM in the standard fashion. 16 chips, labelled 'C1516', 'C1515', or 'C1517'. No other markings on the chips. I suppose it's just standard 16k RAMs? The most interesting: a "Mockingboard Sound/Speech 1'. Looks remarkably like a DAC/speech synth. I'm guessing even stereo? It's got two DACs and a pair of LM386 chips. It's got three potentiometers across the top and a 4 pin BERG header which I'm thinking is the output stage. I want to play with this. How? Last but not least is the Apple ][ motherboard. I'm wondering which ][ it came from. I compared it to my ][plus and it looks remarkably similar with the following differences: Mystery board: Has 'APPLE II MAIN LOGIC BD RFI' silkscreened underneath the copyright and part number (820-0044-D), one bank of 300 ns Apple branded 4116 RAMs, and Apple/Microsoft ROMs. At the back of the board by the mounting holes it is marked '606-X548'. Apple ][plus: Has nothing silkscreened beneath the copyright and part number (820-0044-01 or -0I), three banks of 200 ns Apple badged 416C RAMs, and fairly generic looking ROMs that have only Apple copyrights on them. What are the differences between the Apple ][, ][plus, and //e? What I'd really like is to start a good long discussion on Apple use and lore. If somebody has the patience to start this with me, I'd appreciate it. I've got other stuff I want to know about but this'll do for now. (: Thanks. ok r. From gram at cnct.com Fri May 22 22:28:30 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old References: Message-ID: <3566425E.9C7EAE48@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > >I hope that "16K" means "16/64K model" as opposed to "actually equipped with > > > > > >16K of memory." > > > > Yup, came with 16k soldered down and room to add DRAM up to a whopping 64k. > > So what people are saying is that if you find one with all 4 rows of 16K > chips fitted, it becomes more valuable if 3 of the rows are pulled? > Strange... > > This is the sort of thing which will make me leave the computer > collecting world, alas. I can remember when computer collecting was fun - > you went to a radio rally, or to the local(ish) junk shop and came home > with a pile of bits. Fiddled with them, got them working, hacked about a > bit, modified things a bit, and learnt a lot. Now, if we're going to have > high-priced machines for no good reason, then I'm outa here... Me too. I collect computers (well, it wasn't the original plan, but I have this trouble throwing things away and eventually I decided I might as well start filling some of the gaps), not collectibles. If the machines I want are "collector's items" I'll stop looking for them -- I hadn't been in the market for Apples or Altairs anyway -- but there are a few Tandy/Radio Shack machines I really want, that being the line with the gaps -- I've got representatives of every product line except for the PC compatibles that I don't care about -- hell, I do have a 1000/TL2, but I still don't care about it -- I mostly use it as lab rat to test viruses -- amazing how overblown the news is about viruses, considering how few of them work. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri May 22 22:36:32 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Apple ][ stuff Message-ID: In a message dated 98-05-22 23:07:27 EDT, you write: << What I'd really like is to start a good long discussion on Apple use and lore. If somebody has the patience to start this with me, I'd appreciate it. I've got other stuff I want to know about but this'll do for now. (: >> great, lets get started. i first played with the apple //e in high skool and subsequently failed computer science but its got me to where i am now. i have every apple // model except for an original ][, //c+ and gs and i have plenty of hardware and software to keep me using these computers for many many years. at work i was playing around with MAME and some old computer emulators and even found beyond castle wolfenstien which played JUST LIKE the apple version; even the voices! i played plenty of that during classtime. i always wanted an apple for myself when i was younger, and finally i can afford to get one; a //e enhanced with duodisk drive and colour monitor; woo hoo! david From gram at cnct.com Fri May 22 22:44:17 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) References: <01BD85C8.6F2B3D20@slip166-72-159-84.nc.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <35664611.F6D4EC12@cnct.com> Kirk Scott wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Russ/Alice Blakeman [SMTP:rhblake@bbtel.com] > Sent: Friday, May 22, 1998 9:06 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old > > ...... When I had this nasty little Sanyo > MBC-55x machine....... > > Just saw one of these at a friend's place tonight and she was interested in getting rid of it. I think the model number was MBC-5510 (???). She said she also had a printer that came with it. What is it? What would be a reasonable price to offer for it? Reasonable price is hard to tell. Since I wouldn't be willing to touch one with my own hands (I did once, it took months to lose the rash), if I had one I'd have to pay someone to carry it to the dumpster. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Fri May 22 22:56:18 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? References: <3.0.16.19980522173120.3d370a22@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <356648E2.448898F3@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 06:23 PM 5/21/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Sure the DOS license was a big initial push, but to say it was solely > >responsible for the success of Microsoft is like saying the Model T is > >responsible for Ford having the best selling vehicle in America today. > > True! You'd be leaving out the amazing stupidity of the american public. 8^) What's so amazing about the stupidity of the American public? It's no news to me, I grew up not that far from both Disneyland and the Crystal Cathedral. And Hollywood wasn't all that far in the other direction. Los Angeles will always be my home, but I'll never live there again until the Sacramento wetlands are restored. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri May 22 22:50:14 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Apple ][ stuff Message-ID: <01ca01bd85fd$ff2e81e0$466fbcc1@hotze> Alright!!!! Let's get this thing started!!!! Seriously, I've got a ][+, with 64K and a Mountain Computers DA/AD card. Anyone have info on this??? Also, I'm getting a cool card that takes a snapshot of RAM and records it on a floppy, as well as one that keeps the RAM on during a power outage. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze ><< What I'd really like is to start a good long discussion on Apple use and > lore. If somebody has the patience to start this with me, I'd appreciate > it. I've got other stuff I want to know about but this'll do for now. (: >> > >great, lets get started. i first played with the apple //e in high skool and >subsequently failed computer science but its got me to where i am now. i have >every apple // model except for an original ][, //c+ and gs and i have plenty >of hardware and software to keep me using these computers for many many years. >at work i was playing around with MAME and some old computer emulators and >even found beyond castle wolfenstien which played JUST LIKE the apple version; >even the voices! i played plenty of that during classtime. i always wanted an >apple for myself when i was younger, and finally i can afford to get one; a >//e enhanced with duodisk drive and colour monitor; woo hoo! > >david From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 22 22:46:56 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) In-Reply-To: <01BD85C8.6F2B3D20@slip166-72-159-84.nc.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980522224656.70a72266@intellistar.net> At 09:27 PM 5/22/98 -0400, you wrote: > >...... When I had this nasty little Sanyo >MBC-55x machine....... > >What would be a reasonable price to offer for it? Zero, nothing, notta! They should pay for taking that piece of crap! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 22 22:49:26 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) In-Reply-To: <3566286C.29805A3B@bbtel.com> References: <01BD85C8.6F2B3D20@slip166-72-159-84.nc.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980522224926.445fc1d8@intellistar.net> At 08:37 PM 5/22/98 -0500, you wrote: >Kirk Scott wrote: > >> ...... When I had this nasty little Sanyo MBC-55x machine....... >> >> Just saw one of these at a friend's place tonight and she was interested in getting rid of it. I think the model number was MBC-5510 (???). She said she also had a printer that came with it. What is it? What would be a reasonable price to offer for it? > >That's the older type machines (4 digit model number) and not the "MSDOS compatible" (yeah right) that I was speaking of. I believe the 5510 was a CP/M machine that ran a Z80 processor and someone else in the list may hae more exposure to those. The units >I'm speaking of are in the model numbers of MBC-550 (one SSDD drive), MBC-555 (2 SSDD drives), MBC-550-2 (one DSDD drive) and MBC-555-2 (2 DSDD drives) and other similar numbers that are three place 55x series model numbers. It ran an 8088 4.77mhz You're mostly right but they had 3.58 MHz crystal. TV color burst crystals were cheaper than 4.77 Mhz crystals. Joe From gram at cnct.com Fri May 22 23:06:20 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... References: <35661DD4.1717358E@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <35664B3C.50EAF502@cnct.com> Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > The pinout of the PC cassette connector is the same as that on a TRS-80, > > and the same cable works. My guess is this is not a coincidence - IBM > > probably intended PC owners to go to the local Tandy/Radio Shack and buy a > > cassette recorder and cable. > > Or maybe it was a standard interface for the time, like RS-232 is supposed to > be.... No, it wasn't a standard at any time. Apple, Commode, Atari cassette systems were totally different. Since the TRS-80 cassette interface was the most reliable around at the time, IBM adapted it for their system along with the DIN pinout -- I think they actually paid Tandy for the permission though I don't recall specifics. RS-232 _is_ a standard. The DB-25 connector is part of it. IBM DB-9 serial connectors are _not_ RS-232 whatever anybody says. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From afritz at iname.com Fri May 22 23:17:44 1998 From: afritz at iname.com (Adam Fritzler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Pericom MX7200... (again) Message-ID: [I asked about this before (a few months ago) but I got no response -- maybe one of the new people can tell me...] Can someone tell me what a Pericom MX7200 is? It was a freebie (a appearnlty rightly so). It's got a genuine MC68000P12 in it. When I plug the video in and turn it on, it just sits at a blank screen with a flashing cursor in the corner. Sometimes it will come on with some sort of debugging screen (as in something's broken), but it will quickly flash off before I can read it fully. I'm guessing it's a broken trace on the PCB, as it's quite old and brittle. I've gathered that it's somesort of graphics workstation but I know nothing more. I've heard you used them to do graphics visualizations on a graphics-less VAX -- any truth to this? Thanks, Adam ---------- Adam Fritzler afritz@iname.com afritz@delphid.ml.org http://delphid.ml.org/~afritz/ ---------- From cad at gamewood.net Fri May 22 23:40:09 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... References: <35661DD4.1717358E@bbtel.com> <35664B3C.50EAF502@cnct.com> Message-ID: <35665329.6148@gamewood.net> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: snip > > RS-232 _is_ a standard. The DB-25 connector is part of it. IBM DB-9 > serial connectors are _not_ RS-232 whatever anybody says. > -- > Ward Griffiths > They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ Which brings up one of the 'bones' that I have to pick with IBM [as if they were interested in listening to me. ;-(] RS-232, was a well accepted 'Standard'. Any time that you saw a piece of equipment with a DB-25 connector on it, it was almost certainly a RS-232 connection. Then along comes 'Big Brother' (IBM) wanting to save a few pennies on 'printer connectors' (The Amphenol must have been _way_ more expensieve. But all the printer manufacturers still seem to be able to be able to afford it.) Which brings us to todays state of affairs! DB-25's that might be either a serial port, or maybe a parallel port, or maybe something else. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From dastar at wco.com Fri May 22 23:52:14 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: <004501bd8552$61b05340$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> Message-ID: First, a quick gripe. Desie, could you please edit your reply messages as to not include 100 lines of superfluous header? On Fri, 22 May 1998, Desie Hay wrote: > yes I am talking about the original 16kb-64kb model............ > I wounder how many IBM PCs are still out there with only cassette input and > 16KB of RAM............ > no floppy drives............. > oh well Well, every single 16-64kb motherboard 5150's I've ever gotten (and I think I have two) have a disk drive in them. I don't think its that big of a deal to remove one if you want to make it "original". But as far as all the original 5150's I've ever come across (a lot), every single one of them have at least one disk drive, if not two disk drives, or one drive and a hard drive. I don't think many people bought an IBM PC without either buying an installed 5.25" drive with it or adding one shortly thereafter. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From donm at cts.com Fri May 22 23:54:54 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) In-Reply-To: <3566286C.29805A3B@bbtel.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 1998, Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote: > Kirk Scott wrote: > > > ...... When I had this nasty little Sanyo MBC-55x machine....... > > > > Just saw one of these at a friend's place tonight and she was interested in getting rid of it. I think the model number was MBC-5510 (???). She said she also had a printer that came with it. What is it? What would be a reasonable price to offer for it? > > That's the older type machines (4 digit model number) and not the "MSDOS compatible" (yeah right) that I was speaking of. I believe the 5510 was a CP/M machine that ran a Z80 processor and someone else in the list may hae more exposure to those. The units > I'm speaking of are in the model numbers of MBC-550 (one SSDD drive), MBC-555 (2 SSDD drives), MBC-550-2 (one DSDD drive) and MBC-555-2 (2 DSDD drives) and other similar numbers that are three place 55x series model numbers. It ran an 8088 4.77mhz > processor, had Apple bitmap graphics, Apple style DIP joystick plugin, composite video out and a number of very expensive proprietary add-ons. The serial port was an option and used the 8251 USART instead of the IBM style 8250. Very fun when you wanted to > get PC communications software to work on it without reworking the software through patches to make it see and accept the 8251. I do not recognize the MBC-5nnn number series as CP/M machines, though I could be wrong. My exposure has been to MBC-1n00, MBC-2n00, and MBC-3000 (which used 8" drives) as the CP/M machines. - don > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Russ Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ UIN #1714857 > AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From dastar at wco.com Sat May 23 00:05:06 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: <199805221349.AA07621@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > Linux is free and it may be better (it's abosolute hell to install) but > Linux is not the default OS on every wintel box nor io it it shipped with > more than a fraction of a percent of them. Also for those interested in > running the small landslide of apps out there for DOS/WINDERS Linux is a > non player. Believe me when I tell you (and I can only back this up with gut instincts) that it doesn't matter. The world is changing, and if nothing than by sheer force of will, Linux will prevail, or in the very least crush the MS monopoly. I think it is not far fetched in the least to imagine in five years that manufactures like Dell and Compaq and Gateway will start selling Linux boxes, as long as the DOJ is reasonably successful. But even if they don't, Linux is just gaining too much momentum and acceptance (admittedly right now primarily amongst the techies, but it will spread to the public at large) and it will slowly creep into the mainstream. > Why do I say that, I have linux, it doesn't run PADS, Gcadd, most of my > cross assemblers and a few other apps I depend on. I've tried, even > WP5/dos under linux is strange and tends to die. Setting up an IP network > is pure hell compared to setting up DECNET. Like win95 and later it also > requires more than the 8mb of ram I have or it runs poorly. It's Well, I don't know what you're doing wrong but I've run a Linux box on a 486/33 with 8MB and it screamed. As for the apps not being available, either give it time or bite the bullet and write them yourself and contribute them to the linux collective. That's what its all about! > windowing system is a hog (I'm used to running VMS/DECwindows and a half > dozen engineers in 8mb on a VAX!). Linux(freeBSD, netBSD, Minix etal) is > not the cure all, its a good competitor and offers things for some users > that would otherwise have to run NT(even nastier) but, it's not engineerd > for the common user. Then again, I've never installed a W95 system nor You've got to check out Applixware! All I say to this is "...yet!" This may not all be true yet, but its happening. Linux is becoming easier for even the common turd to use. Like I said, give this time. Five years. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From gram at cnct.com Sat May 23 00:14:57 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... References: <35661DD4.1717358E@bbtel.com> <35664B3C.50EAF502@cnct.com> <35665329.6148@gamewood.net> Message-ID: <35665B51.1B406EA4@cnct.com> Charles A Davis wrote: > > > RS-232 _is_ a standard. The DB-25 connector is part of it. IBM DB-9 > > serial connectors are _not_ RS-232 whatever anybody says. > Which brings up one of the 'bones' that I have to pick with IBM [as if > they were interested in listening to me. ;-(] > > RS-232, was a well accepted 'Standard'. Any time that you saw a piece of > equipment with a DB-25 connector on it, it was almost certainly a RS-232 > connection. Then along comes 'Big Brother' (IBM) wanting to save a few > pennies on 'printer connectors' (The Amphenol must have been _way_ more > expensieve. But all the printer manufacturers still seem to be able to > be able to afford it.) > > Which brings us to todays state of affairs! > > DB-25's that might be either a serial port, or maybe a parallel port, or > maybe something else. Yes, the time you see (and smell) the result of a Radio Shack Daisy Wheel Printer II (something I thought was unkillable) plugged into the DB-25 video connector (carrying power) of an AT&T (Olivetti) 6300, you want vendors to use better labels. (The aroma of doped silicon being turned into silicon dioxide [sand] is pungeant, and you never know which of the evaporating materials will later be discovered to be a virulent carcinogen -- during a democrat administration, probably all of them, including a few that were never near the computer.] -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From dastar at wco.com Sat May 23 00:10:36 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980522090247.00fa0c80@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 1998, Kip Crosby wrote: > At 16:31 5/22/98 +0100, you wrote: > >back on topic though, what cassette unit could be connected up to the > >original PC machines? Was it a custom IBM unit only (similar to the way > >the C64's only accept Commodore tape decks), or could anything be used > >if a cable was made up? > > There was a discussion on here a while back about whether IBM had ever made > cassette decks to attach to that port, and IIRC, the outcome was > inconclusive. If such a thing existed, certainly there were never many of > them. In general, the favorite commodity cassette recorder for the purpose > was one of the long Panasonics with the carrying handle. I believe it was Russ Blakeman (could be wrong) who said he had actually seen an IBM data cassette recorder but didn't think anything of it. So as rumor goes, they are believed to exist. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From dastar at wco.com Sat May 23 00:27:16 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Mac POrtable system In-Reply-To: <19980523001242.6327.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > PS, what should I pay for an ImageWriter II? Anywhere from $20 - $50. They're still good printers, and many die hard Apple users will still pay a decent price for one. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From dastar at wco.com Sat May 23 00:34:14 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: <35661DD4.1717358E@bbtel.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 1998, Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote: > My understanding of Commode-Ore is that there is a chip within the cassette > interface that allows the pooter to talk to the cassette drive. Of course > Commodore (like many others, Apple comes to mind) was very good at keeping > most of their stuff proprietry in some (even small) way to dissuade the owners > from buying aftermarket. Well, if you're alluding to the Disk ][, this was not an effort by Apple to be "non-standard", but was basically due to the brilliant hacks of Steve Wozniak in adding an inexpensive and simple disk controller to the Apple ][. And as far as aftermarket goes, I can't think of even one drive that was made to work on any Commodore that wasn't manufactured by Commodore, but I myself have at least five examples of disk drives made for the Apple by random no name manufacturers. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From dastar at wco.com Sat May 23 00:40:24 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) In-Reply-To: <3566286C.29805A3B@bbtel.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 1998, Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote: > that are three place 55x series model numbers. It ran an 8088 4.77mhz > processor, had Apple bitmap graphics, Apple style DIP joystick plugin, What do you mean by "Apple bitmap graphics"? As in the graphics could be programmed the same as on the Apple ][? Don't get it. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From dastar at wco.com Sat May 23 00:42:03 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: osborne? In-Reply-To: <939fc33c.356628cd@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 1998, SUPRDAVE wrote: > seagate st225N in it which surprised me. also found an osborne, complete with > keyboard and dual floppies. i have seen one osborne before, but this one was > all grey and had the word OSBORNE molded into the case (or was it the > keyboard?) it also had a plastic trap door for the power cable and had a cheap > plastic feel to it, unlike the earlier one i saw last year. can anyone place > the time period it was manufactured? it was $10, so i might go back and get it > after the holiday. This is most likely the Osborne Executive. I'm guessing it was manufactured in the 1982 timeframe? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From dastar at wco.com Sat May 23 00:50:05 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Apple ][ stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > Orange Micro Grappler +. How is this better than the Orange Micro Printer > Interface that I got with my ][plus? I assume the quad DIP switch at the > back end is to set communications parameters. Looking at the traces I'm > guessing it's a serial interface. The Grappler+ has 64K onboard buffer. But something tells me I had an argument with Frank M. over this a while back. > The most interesting: a "Mockingboard Sound/Speech 1'. Looks remarkably > like a DAC/speech synth. I'm guessing even stereo? It's got two DACs and a > pair of LM386 chips. It's got three potentiometers across the top and a 4 > pin BERG header which I'm thinking is the output stage. I want to play > with this. How? The Mockingboard is a way cool sound card for the Apple ][. To use it? Get a copy of Ultima II or III or IV or V for one. Ultima is the one program that comes to mind that supported the Mockingboard. Yes, it also does speech synthesis. Post a message on comp.sys.apple2 and I'm sure you'll be directed as to where you can get some software to play with it. > What are the differences between the Apple ][, ][plus, and //e? Apple ][: Integer BASIC in ROM; normally had "manual start" ROMs (required the user to boot the machine by punching in an address and the GO command in the monitor) Apple ][+: AppleSoft BASIC in ROM; autostart ROMs Apple //e: Lowercase, 64K, 80 columns > What I'd really like is to start a good long discussion on Apple use and > lore. If somebody has the patience to start this with me, I'd appreciate > it. I've got other stuff I want to know about but this'll do for now. (: Ask away either privately or in the open. The Apple ][ is my personal favorite. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From dastar at wco.com Sat May 23 00:53:06 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Apple ][ stuff In-Reply-To: <01ca01bd85fd$ff2e81e0$466fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 May 1998, Hotze wrote: > Alright!!!! Let's get this thing started!!!! Seriously, I've got a ][+, with > 64K and a Mountain Computers DA/AD card. Anyone have info on this??? Also, > I'm getting a cool card that takes a snapshot of RAM and records it on a > floppy, as well as one that keeps the RAM on during a power outage. Ah, the WildCard (most likely). The requisite card that wannabee software crackers who didn't know how to boot trace used. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From dastar at wco.com Sat May 23 00:55:22 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: <35665329.6148@gamewood.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 May 1998, Charles A Davis wrote: > RS-232, was a well accepted 'Standard'. Any time that you saw a piece of > equipment with a DB-25 connector on it, it was almost certainly a RS-232 > connection. Then along comes 'Big Brother' (IBM) wanting to save a few > pennies on 'printer connectors' (The Amphenol must have been _way_ more > expensieve. But all the printer manufacturers still seem to be able to > be able to afford it.) > > DB-25's that might be either a serial port, or maybe a parallel port, or > maybe something else. It's simple: DB-25 male: serial port DB-25 female: parallel port Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From fmc at reanimators.org Sat May 23 01:24:21 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Fri, 22 May 1998 22:55:22 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199805230624.XAA23903@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > It's simple: > > DB-25 male: serial port > > DB-25 female: parallel port Except...on a peculiar ISA dual-port serial card that HP made for the early HP Vectras. One D?-9S like a PC/AT serial port, one DB-25S. To be fair, HP put a plastic tag out one side of the slot to remind you that this was a serial port. -Frank McConnell From rhblake at bbtel.com Sat May 23 02:02:56 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) References: <01BD85C8.6F2B3D20@slip166-72-159-84.nc.us.ibm.net> <3.0.1.16.19980522224926.445fc1d8@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <356674A0.13BA6ACE@bbtel.com> Joe wrote: > You're mostly right but they had 3.58 MHz crystal. TV color burst > crystals were cheaper than 4.77 Mhz crystals. I know but I hate to admit that I owned and used a pc-type machine that slow. I think the TRS-80 IV was faster than that but I may be running a close one here too. Not only were colorburst crystals cheaper, but since Sanyo makes billions of TV's I imaine they had a fair surplus to send over to the computer assembly plant.-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sat May 23 02:07:01 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... References: Message-ID: <35667595.FE2D7660@bbtel.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > There was a discussion on here a while back about whether IBM had ever made > > cassette decks to attach to that port, and IIRC, the outcome was > > inconclusive. If such a thing existed, certainly there were never many of > > them. In general, the favorite commodity cassette recorder for the purpose > > was one of the long Panasonics with the carrying handle. > > I believe it was Russ Blakeman (could be wrong) who said he had actually > seen an IBM data cassette recorder but didn't think anything of it. So as > rumor goes, they are believed to exist. And it may very well have been a Panasonic that had been relabeled by IBM (like certain brand washers being made with Kenmore panels). Now that you mention the Panasonic, it was similar to the type I had a while back. Either way, it had IBM on the front and a P/n on the back and it worked. Now you have me going nuts as to who I sold or gave that to. I'd love to get a Polaroid and post it for anyone interested. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sat May 23 02:12:43 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:04 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) References: Message-ID: <356676EB.E792F249@bbtel.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 22 May 1998, Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote: > > > that are three place 55x series model numbers. It ran an 8088 4.77mhz > > processor, had Apple bitmap graphics, Apple style DIP joystick plugin, > > What do you mean by "Apple bitmap graphics"? As in the graphics could be > programmed the same as on the Apple ][? Don't get it. Supposedly so, according to some of the tech data I had and the write ups in the now defunct Soft Sector magaizine put out specifically for the 55x series by Falsoft Publishing in Louisville. The Say-no 55x machines were essentially half Apple/half IBM. If you ran a graphics program on it that was direct address IBM video calls, watch for a lockup. Sanyo eventually came out with a $250 CGA adapter that also increased the ram. It was called a VB something, I don't remember now. I haven't had a silver demon around now since 92 and there are no scars either, other than the mental memories of a machine that makes the Edsel look like a Corvette. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sat May 23 02:16:46 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Questions, questions References: <1998May21.133900.1767.105314@smtp.itgonline.com> <356579B0.AC752168@bbtel.com> <3566323B.E821A899@cnct.com> Message-ID: <356677DE.94D5433@bbtel.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote: > > > Most were sold at auction for pennies at govt surplus sales, mostly due to being > > "obsolete: for the puroose they served. Why not buy new all the time when it's > > someone else's money you're spending? > > Easy, Russ. People might think you're a libertarian or something It's jealousy really. I'm sure most of us wish we could buy top of the line machines for ourselves with someone else covering whatever the amount might be. I actually got to use some of those $250 hammers and $190 screwdrivers while I was a missile maintainer. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sat May 23 02:20:07 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) References: <01BD85C8.6F2B3D20@slip166-72-159-84.nc.us.ibm.net> <35664611.F6D4EC12@cnct.com> Message-ID: <356678A7.65267B31@bbtel.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > ...... When I had this nasty little Sanyo > > MBC-55x machine....... > > > > Just saw one of these at a friend's place tonight and she was interested in getting rid of it. I think the model number was MBC-5510 (???). She said she also had a printer that came with it. What is it? What would be a reasonable price to offer for it? > > Reasonable price is hard to tell. Since I wouldn't be willing to > touch one with my own hands (I did once, it took months to lose the > rash), if I had one I'd have to pay someone to carry it to the dumpster. > So it's unanimous - all Sanyo MBC-55x machines, working or not, that are not a part of a Camry fender, are to be executed immediately to save our planet. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sat May 23 02:24:21 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... References: <35661DD4.1717358E@bbtel.com> <35664B3C.50EAF502@cnct.com> Message-ID: <356679A5.C119C41A@bbtel.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > RS-232 _is_ a standard. The DB-25 connector is part of it. IBM DB-9 > serial connectors are _not_ RS-232 whatever anybody says. Evidentally the male or female issue of the 25 was ignored too. Since most IBM/compats use the male on the machine, I still see older machines with female 25's for serial ports, such as on the back of the Sr. Partner I have here. I know many other machines have prts that are stated to be in compliance with the RS-232 standard but only in signal compatibility, not connector type. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sat May 23 02:27:36 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... References: <35661DD4.1717358E@bbtel.com> <35664B3C.50EAF502@cnct.com> <35665329.6148@gamewood.net> <35665B51.1B406EA4@cnct.com> Message-ID: <35667A68.1B3E7E02@bbtel.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > (The aroma of doped silicon being > turned into silicon dioxide [sand] is pungeant, and you never know > which of the evaporating materials will later be discovered to be a > virulent carcinogen -- during a democrat administration, probably all > of them, including a few that were never near the computer.] Not to mention the fact that the doping is usually iodine or arsenic, usually turned to a vapor when burned. Yum..... Aren't Germanium diodes for the garden? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From yowza at yowza.com Sat May 23 02:55:21 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) In-Reply-To: <356678A7.65267B31@bbtel.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 May 1998, Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote: > So it's unanimous - all Sanyo MBC-55x machines, working or not, that are > not a part of a Camry fender, are to be executed immediately to save our > planet. OK, I'll stick up for the Sanyo. I liked the keyboard. At a time when the only alternative was the IBM clicker, it was great to have a nice quiet keyboard with just the right amount of key travel. The Microswitch keyboards that came later for the PC were the only thing that I liked better. It had TEAC floppy drives. Even though it was a bit odd to have an Apple-compatible joystick port, at least it wasn't an add-on option like IBM's. It had composite output, so you didn't have to buy an expensive monitor as you did with IBM. It was *cheap*. I got mine for something like $600 at the San Diego Price Club when IBM's were going for a coupla grand. There was no alternative x86 box for poor folk until the Taiwanese came to town. -- Doug From dastar at wco.com Sat May 23 03:00:23 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Converting 220 to 110 Message-ID: Ok, I'm no electrical wiz. I have an old computer that wants 220. First of all, I got this computer without the 3-prong plug (it'd been cut off). Without paying attention to the "220" which was written on the transformer inside, I wired a plug onto the power cord and plugged it in. Needless to say the unit didn't come on, but I'm hoping that it didn't mess anything up. I wouldn't think it did. Anyway, what can I do to run this thing off of 110? The transformer has a solid black lead going to the black wire of the power cord (through the switch), a black lead with a white stripe looped back into the xformer via a white lead, and a blue lead with a white stripe connected to the red wire of the power cord (through the switch with an inline fuse...the fuse is fine). The side connected to the cpmputer board has a rainbow of seven colored wires in the order (from left to right): brown, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet. 1547 is stamped on the transformer. ?. I'd like to make this run off 110 without having to modify the actual unit itself. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Sat May 23 05:57:48 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 22, 98 10:05:06 pm Message-ID: <199805231057.GAA19392@shell.monmouth.com> > > Believe me when I tell you (and I can only back this up with gut > instincts) that it doesn't matter. The world is changing, and if nothing > than by sheer force of will, Linux will prevail, or in the very least > crush the MS monopoly. I think it is not far fetched in the least to > imagine in five years that manufactures like Dell and Compaq and Gateway > will start selling Linux boxes, as long as the DOJ is reasonably > successful. But even if they don't, Linux is just gaining too much > momentum and acceptance (admittedly right now primarily amongst the > techies, but it will spread to the public at large) and it will slowly > creep into the mainstream. > And if you like Linux, the real winner will be FreeBSD which does what Linux does, only better. It has compatibility modes that let you run Linux, and SCO binaries and actually is easy to set up compared to many of the Linux varients. And there's only ONE distribution. And the thing is built as a SYSTEM to run as a system. To build the whole thing from source just type make world in /usr/src. To install over the internet -- just boot the single install floppy and go. It isn't VAX/VMS (or RT11) -- but what is. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From cad at gamewood.net Sat May 23 06:55:05 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... References: Message-ID: <3566B919.57B0@gamewood.net> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Sat, 23 May 1998, Charles A Davis wrote: > > > RS-232, was a well accepted 'Standard'. Any time that you saw a piece of > > equipment with a DB-25 connector on it, it was almost certainly a RS-232 > > connection. Then along comes 'Big Brother' (IBM) wanting to save a few > > pennies on 'printer connectors' (The Amphenol must have been _way_ more > > expensieve. But all the printer manufacturers still seem to be able to > > be able to afford it.) > > > > DB-25's that might be either a serial port, or maybe a parallel port, or > > maybe something else. > > It's simple: > > DB-25 male: serial port > > DB-25 female: parallel port > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > Yup!!! Does sound simple --- EXCEPT RS-232 uses BOTH the male and female plugs. One for each of the TWO types of RS-232 euipment. You only needed to stock M/F (extension type) cables to be able to hook up anything. M/M and F/F were 'Null Modem' cables. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From jrice at texoma.net Sat May 23 07:10:57 1998 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... References: <199805230624.XAA23903@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <3566BCD1.22836519@texoma.net> Except on Macs where DB25F is SCSI James Frank McConnell wrote: > > Sam Ismail wrote: > > It's simple: > > > > DB-25 male: serial port > > > > DB-25 female: parallel port > > Except...on a peculiar ISA dual-port serial card that HP made > for the early HP Vectras. One D?-9S like a PC/AT serial > port, one DB-25S. To be fair, HP put a plastic tag out one side > of the slot to remind you that this was a serial port. > > -Frank McConnell From cad at gamewood.net Sat May 23 07:17:29 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Converting 220 to 110 References: Message-ID: <3566BE59.7A63@gamewood.net> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Ok, I'm no electrical wiz. I have an old computer that wants 220. First > of all, I got this computer without the 3-prong plug (it'd been cut off). > Without paying attention to the "220" which was written on the transformer > inside, I wired a plug onto the power cord and plugged it in. Needless to > say the unit didn't come on, but I'm hoping that it didn't mess anything > up. I wouldn't think it did. > > Anyway, what can I do to run this thing off of 110? The transformer has a > solid black lead going to the black wire of the power cord (through the > switch), a black lead with a white stripe looped back into the xformer via > a white lead, and a blue lead with a white stripe connected to the red > wire of the power cord (through the switch with an inline fuse...the fuse > is fine). > > The side connected to the cpmputer board has a rainbow of seven colored > wires in the order (from left to right): brown, red, orange, yellow, > green, blue, violet. > > 1547 is stamped on the transformer. ?. > > I'd like to make this run off 110 without having to modify the actual unit > itself. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > Sam: You are in luck. From your description of the wires available ---- (Check with an Ohm meter for continuity to be sure.) The White, and Black wires _should_ be the ends of 'ONE of TWO' 110v windings. (1) After making sure that they are the ends of the same winding, apply 110v. (2) Add the Black w/White stripe to the Black connection, and _carefully measure the voltage between the White, and Blue w/White stripe. It will be either '0', or '220' volts. (3) IF it is zero, then that wire (Blue w/White stripe) hooks to the same place as the White wire, (3a) If the voltage is '220', then the Black w/White stripe goes with the White wire, and the Blue w/White stripe goes with the White wire. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From gram at cnct.com Sat May 23 07:21:16 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? References: <199805231057.GAA19392@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3566BF3C.4052E928@cnct.com> Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > And if you like Linux, the real winner will be FreeBSD which does > what Linux does, only better. It has compatibility modes that let you > run Linux, and SCO binaries and actually is easy to set up compared > to many of the Linux varients. > > And there's only ONE distribution. And the thing is built as a SYSTEM > to run as a system. > > To build the whole thing from source just type make world in /usr/src. > To install over the internet -- just boot the single install floppy > and go. I've got both. FreeBSD supports at best a quarter of the hardware that Linux does -- in large part because it _is_ just the one distribution with the one design team, instead of a planetwide anarchist cooperative. Linux runs SCO binaries just fine as well, the iBCS module was migrated to FreeBSD from Linux. This is _not_ the forum for that particular (and peculiar) religious war. I've been a Unix junkie since I first tried Xenix on a TRS-80 Model 16 shortly before it officially shipped to the RSCC where I did tech support. Part of the problem I have with the so-called fight between the government and Microsoft is that while I prefer to avoid MS when I can, I usually can -- the government on the other hand I can never avoid whether I desire or not since they have lots of guns and lately a free hand in using them -- but that's also a discussion for a different mailing list (check out for subscription info). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Sat May 23 07:31:33 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... References: Message-ID: <3566C1A5.FD10E0A0@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Sat, 23 May 1998, Charles A Davis wrote: > > > RS-232, was a well accepted 'Standard'. Any time that you saw a piece of > > equipment with a DB-25 connector on it, it was almost certainly a RS-232 > > connection. Then along comes 'Big Brother' (IBM) wanting to save a few > > pennies on 'printer connectors' (The Amphenol must have been _way_ more > > expensieve. But all the printer manufacturers still seem to be able to > > be able to afford it.) > > > > DB-25's that might be either a serial port, or maybe a parallel port, or > > maybe something else. > > It's simple: > > DB-25 male: serial port > > DB-25 female: parallel port I've got a gagload of equipment that disagrees with you. At least the connectors on my TRS-80 Model II are labelled in english instead of foolish little "universally understandable" hieroglyphs. (My ass if they're "universally understandable" -- those fewking pictures never mean a thing to me, I'm handicapped by early literacy). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Sat May 23 07:28:43 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: <3566BF3C.4052E928@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at May 23, 98 08:21:16 am Message-ID: <199805231228.IAA08036@shell.monmouth.com> Ward Griffiths wrote: > I've got both. FreeBSD supports at best a quarter of the hardware > that Linux does -- in large part because it _is_ just the one > distribution with the one design team, instead of a planetwide > anarchist cooperative. Linux runs SCO binaries just fine as well, > the iBCS module was migrated to FreeBSD from Linux. So do I. I have both and like both. I respect the Linux community for their evangelism. I've run Linux since about 99.10 back in the days of the SLS->Slackware migration. I love it. If it wasn't for FreeBSD I'd still make it my main platform. It may even be a better desktop answer for many folks. I find as a server platform I prefer FreeBSD for ease of maintenance and reliability. I'm running two web servers on it at work. > > This is _not_ the forum for that particular (and peculiar) religious > war. I've been a Unix junkie since I first tried Xenix on a TRS-80 > Model 16 shortly before it officially shipped to the RSCC where I > did tech support. Ah, well. My real favorite things are DEC OS's and CP/M 2.2. Unix came along after I was hooked on RT11, RSTS, VAX/VMS. One of the things that made Unix successful was it's spread through universities. Once you get hooked on an OS you tend to want to stay with it. AT&T was very lucky with Unix and no one's been able to duplicate the spread except Linux. (Now I'm at Lucent Technologies in Holmdel and I'm being pushed to NT and Microsoft OS stuff... 8-( ) The problem is I need to be "MS Word and MS Excel bug and file compatible" to do my job (Sys Admin)... this gets me to using Win95 on my desktop. (I know NT's better -- but the @##$%&^* desktop's a 486 with 16MB memory). Bill From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Sat May 23 07:31:33 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: <3566C1A5.FD10E0A0@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at May 23, 98 08:31:33 am Message-ID: <199805231231.IAA08617@shell.monmouth.com> > > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > On Sat, 23 May 1998, Charles A Davis wrote: > > > > > RS-232, was a well accepted 'Standard'. Any time that you saw a piece of > > > equipment with a DB-25 connector on it, it was almost certainly a RS-232 > > > connection. Then along comes 'Big Brother' (IBM) wanting to save a few > > > pennies on 'printer connectors' (The Amphenol must have been _way_ more > > > expensieve. But all the printer manufacturers still seem to be able to > > > be able to afford it.) > > > > > > DB-25's that might be either a serial port, or maybe a parallel port, or > > > maybe something else. > > > > It's simple: > > > > DB-25 male: serial port > > > > DB-25 female: parallel port I seem to rember that the port gender changed at RS232C time and before RS232C the earlier RS232's used male or femail depending on the vendor. I also seem to remember that Mail vs Female depended on DTE or DCE designations. The gender may have been optional. This caused Perkin-Elmer (Concurrent) terminals to have a different gender then DEC due to being PRE-RS232C. Bill From gram at cnct.com Sat May 23 07:37:59 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Questions, questions References: <1998May21.133900.1767.105314@smtp.itgonline.com> <356579B0.AC752168@bbtel.com> <3566323B.E821A899@cnct.com> <356677DE.94D5433@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <3566C327.4DB6B009@cnct.com> Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote: > > Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > > Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote: > > > > > Most were sold at auction for pennies at govt surplus sales, mostly due to being > > > "obsolete: for the puroose they served. Why not buy new all the time when it's > > > someone else's money you're spending? > > > > Easy, Russ. People might think you're a libertarian or something > > It's jealousy really. I'm sure most of us wish we could buy top of the line machines > for ourselves with someone else covering whatever the amount might be. I actually got > to use some of those $250 hammers and $190 screwdrivers while I was a missile > maintainer. Yes, I used to sit on some of the $5000 toilet seats when I was in the USAF. But the $190 screwdrivers broke easier than my $1.90 Craftsman. (They wouldn't let Avionics techs have hammers -- might have encouraged us to use them to fix the _real_ source of most of the problems, the stick actuators [pilots]). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat May 23 09:31:32 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13357968321.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Linux is becoming easy enough for joe-random-luser...] Bwahahahaha! It's coming! World Domination thru Linux! (And you thought all that was a Joke. We ARE out to rule the world! :-) If Linux becomes easy enough to install and use, and people write the apps for it, it can do nothing BUT take over. Simple economics. People will want to buy products for the cheapest price they can get. Once Linux becomes easy enough to deal with, and has enough applications to attract more developers, Free is cheaper than $99 (Or whatever Windoze sells for). Join or die! Your time is running out! (Now, just wait for Linux/vax and Me getting my 785... World Domination and 3-phase Power! :-) ------- From bwit at pobox.com Sat May 23 09:24:00 1998 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: [Rare systems] & Garry Kildor Message-ID: <01BD862D.A0FE1BA0@ppp-151-164-56-54.rcsntx.swbell.net> The following quote is from Forbes Magazine 80th anniversary issue: "On July 6, 1994 Kildall, 52, walked into a Monterey bar. He was wearing motorcycle leathers with Harley-Davidson patches-a would-be biker. There were some real bikers in the bar. Something was said. There was pushing and shoving, and Kildall died from injuries sustained to his head. An inquest called the death 'suspicious,' but no one was charged." Bob ---------- From: Ward Donald Griffiths III[SMTP:gram@cnct.com] Sent: Friday, May 22, 1998 8:53 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: [Rare systems] & Garry Kildor Desie Hay wrote: > >I'm sure a lot of people wish Bill Gates were in Gary's shoes (so to > speak). > > > > > well yes I suppose........but didnt Garry get killed in a bar fight a few > years ago??? No, he died of a heart attack after a good number of years on the PBS "Computer Chronicles" show. > No old Billy Gates has brought some good into this world............ > but 99.9999% of what he has done is just to steal and steal.......... Bill Gates and I are a month apart in age. My zits cleared up, he became a billionaire. I guess we're even. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From dastar at wco.com Sat May 23 11:00:26 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: <199805231057.GAA19392@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 May 1998, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > And if you like Linux, the real winner will be FreeBSD which does > what Linux does, only better. It has compatibility modes that let you > run Linux, and SCO binaries and actually is easy to set up compared > to many of the Linux varients. Why would FreeBSD need a Linux compatibility mode if it was so much superior to FreeBSD? But anyway, the real issue is that, from a development standpoint, Linux is, and will always be, more successful and therefore more widespread than FreeBSD. Sure FreeBSD is in some ways better than Linux. But FreeBSD is controlled by a small group. Linux is the world. That in itself is the reason why Linux has prevailed over all other unix variants for the hobbyist, and why it will continue to thrive. > And there's only ONE distribution. And the thing is built as a SYSTEM > to run as a system. So? I'd rather have the option to choose from several distributions. And I'd rather have the competition between those distributions that will invite innovation. The problem is you're comparing an OS that will forever remain trapped in the academic realm to an operating system that is transitioning over into the commercial market. You've got companies making commercial use of Linux and selling it to mainstream customers. This trend will continue to grow. > To build the whole thing from source just type make world in /usr/src. > To install over the internet -- just boot the single install floppy > and go. Cool. I'm sure Linux has a similar capability. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From engine at chac.org Sat May 23 02:02:34 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: 785 cc microcars (OT) In-Reply-To: <35663D67.5B400523@cnct.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980523000234.00f7f600@pop.batnet.com> At 23:07 5/22/98 -0400, you wrote: >Yeah, but you Brits have got _weird_ concepts in transportation. >The Morris Minor for instance never should have been licensed as >an automobile -- a four-wheeled powered bicycle on its best day. Eee, lad, y're not up on yer British automotive innovation. The four-wheeled powered bicycle was the Berkeley Frisky. My other fave was the Ginetta 1600 R, which is what you got when you crossed a Ford Cortina with a bespoke tapered London suit. Then there was always, gawdelpus, the three-wheel Morgan. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From dastar at wco.com Sat May 23 11:04:54 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: <3566C1A5.FD10E0A0@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 May 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > It's simple: > > > > DB-25 male: serial port > > > > DB-25 female: parallel port > > I've got a gagload of equipment that disagrees with you. At least the > connectors on my TRS-80 Model II are labelled in english instead of > foolish little "universally understandable" hieroglyphs. (My ass if > they're "universally understandable" -- those fewking pictures never > mean a thing to me, I'm handicapped by early literacy). No, no, no. I meant on the IBM PC and its ilk you can basically be assured that male is serial, female is parallel. I wasn't referring to any computer but. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From engine at chac.org Sat May 23 11:08:31 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: If I had a hammer (OT) In-Reply-To: <356677DE.94D5433@bbtel.com> References: <1998May21.133900.1767.105314@smtp.itgonline.com> <356579B0.AC752168@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980523090831.00f96a10@pop.batnet.com> At 02:16 5/23/98 -0500, Russ wrote: >It's jealousy really. I'm sure most of us wish we could buy top of the line machines >for ourselves....I actually got >to use some of those $250 hammers and $190 screwdrivers while I was a missile >maintainer. But are they any _better?_ I mean, once you get to Snap-on, isn't a tool a tool? __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From rcini at email.msn.com Sat May 23 11:18:31 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... Message-ID: <005301bd8666$8cd1fc80$6e21a7cd@bothell> On Fri, 22 May 1998 08:46:50 -0700, Kip Crosby wrote At 11:20 5/22/98 -0400, Marty wrote: > What exactly is the distinction between the "Series 0" and "Series 1?" > To me a no floppy 5150 16KB-64KB would be missing a floppy controller > and floppy drives. >>I don't know and have never known. Unless I miss my guess, the tech ref >>was the same for all 16-64's, so there's probably no telling from docs >>unless someone has access to IBM internal memos. I thought that I remember reading somewhere that the difference was the ROM version. There were two versions, one in early August, 1981, and one in late-August (I have a FAQ on this somewhere, I just have to find it). The early-August machines are *very* rare from what I have read. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking Collector of classic computers <<<========== Reply Separator ==========>>> From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 23 11:22:39 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Converting 220 to 110 Message-ID: <199805231622.AA11610@world.std.com> <1547 is stamped on the transformer. ?. < I'll make this the last rant on list... However I invite off list discussion. It's a matter of keeping the on list comments "classic". I don't hate unix, it does dissappoint me that with all the hoopla installation is not better explained. IE: installation for non unix weenies. There is little attempt to communicate in such a way that doesn't assume unix socialized as the norm. I did pick up Linux for Dummies to get Redhat that comes with it and it was at least more direct. <199805230624.XAA23903@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <199805231631.JAA15344@daemonweed.reanimators.org> I wrote: > Except...on a peculiar ISA dual-port serial card that HP made > for the early HP Vectras. One D?-9S like a PC/AT serial > port, one DB-25S. To be fair, HP put a plastic tag out one side > of the slot to remind you that this was a serial port. Doggone it, I screwed up. The 9-pin connector is male, the 25-pin connector is female. So what you had sticking through the back plate was a 9-pin connector on top, a 25-pin connector on bottom, and a little plastic tag with orange print to one side of the 25-pin connector reminding you that this was a serial port. Thinking about it this morning I think I also remember an HP serial/parallel card with male 9-pin serial connector on top and 25-pin female connector on bottom...and a little plastic tag with black print to one side of the 25-pin connector reminding you that this was a parallel port. Good thing we didn't have many of those latter ones around in my shop, I was (still am, actually) in the habit of feeling out connectors with my fingertips to work out where the plug is supposed to go. How did things get this way? Well, HP was in the habit of putting female connectors on everything except cables and making their minis look sort of like modems. I once heard this referred to as "DTE in DCE drag" w/r/t the HP3000. -Frank McConnell From rcini at email.msn.com Sat May 23 11:50:38 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Copies of Win286 and Win386 Message-ID: <006101bd866a$eaed0860$6e21a7cd@bothell> Hello, all: Does anyone have copies of Windows 286 and/or Windows 386 that I could get?? Just fleshing-out my MS operating systems collection. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking Collector of classic computers <<<========== Reply Separator ==========>>> From fmc at reanimators.org Sat May 23 12:25:58 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Sat, 23 May 1998 09:00:26 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199805231725.KAA16897@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail writes: > The problem is you're comparing an OS that will forever remain trapped in > the academic realm to an operating system that is transitioning over into > the commercial market. You've got companies making commercial use of > Linux and selling it to mainstream customers. This trend will continue to > grow. *chuckle* Sam's been reading the propaganda again.... You've got companies making commercial use of FreeBSD and selling it to mainstream customers too. And you know what? They aren't bound by the GNU Public License to release (in some cases significantly modified) source to anyone under any conditions if they don't want to. Well, except for those parts of the typical stock FreeBSD system that are encumbered by the GPL. You might note that the FreeBSD folks have been careful to keep those separate in their source tree, and that it's possible to have a running OS without those parts: it's not much of a desktop user or development system but it'll get your packets where they need to go. Now that's something you can do with FreeBSD that you can't do with Linux -- derive your own work without having to make the source accessible outside your organization. Believe it or not, some commmercial concerns think that this will better protect their intellectual property, and in spite of what Stallman and some other folks might like you to believe that is sometimes the right way to go about it. ObClassic: this model's been around a while, it's how a significant portion of Wollongong's networking products worked. Though in those days you needed a Unix source license from Western Electric so you could get your hands on the BSD 4.[23] sources from which you could derive your own work, which in Wollongong's case was porting to other Unixes (and sometimes non-Unix OSs, like MPE). -Frank McConnell From donm at cts.com Sat May 23 13:26:24 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: <199805230624.XAA23903@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 22 May 1998, Frank McConnell wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > It's simple: > > > > DB-25 male: serial port > > > > DB-25 female: parallel port > > Except...on a peculiar ISA dual-port serial card that HP made > for the early HP Vectras. One D?-9S like a PC/AT serial > port, one DB-25S. To be fair, HP put a plastic tag out one side > of the slot to remind you that this was a serial port. > > -Frank McConnell > And we must not forget that 'marvellous' 37-pin thing that the Zenith 248 had. What was it? Serial and parallel? - don From transit at primenet.com Sat May 23 13:32:20 1998 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Mac monitor--can it be used for other computers? Message-ID: I have one of the older Mac Monitors, the AppleColor High Resolution, model MO401. It came out around the time the Mac II did (ca. 1987?) and uses a monitor cable with a 15-pin plug. Can this monitor be adapted for use with a. Apple II b. IBM PC's or clones c. Amiga 1000 d. C-64? Thanks! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jruschme at exit109.com Sat May 23 13:48:54 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Mac monitor--can it be used for other computers? In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at "May 23, 98 11:32:20 am" Message-ID: <199805231849.OAA17853@crobin.home.org> > I have one of the older Mac Monitors, the AppleColor High Resolution, > model MO401. It came out around the time the Mac II did (ca. 1987?) and > uses a monitor cable with a 15-pin plug. > > Can this monitor be adapted for use with > a. Apple II > b. IBM PC's or clones > c. Amiga 1000 > d. C-64? I'd say definately no to the IBM or the C-64. As for the others, I always get confused... is the AppleColor High Res a Mac monitor or the one that went with the Apple //gs? If it is the Mac monitor, then I'd say no... it'd have a resolution of 640x480, but with really odd vertical and horizontal frequencies. If it's the Apple iigs monitor, then it is a CGA resolution monitor, but analog. It would work on an Apple //gs, probably could get a card for the Apple II, and should be adaptable to an Amiga. <<>> From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat May 23 13:59:23 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: 785 cc microcars (OT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980523000234.00f7f600@pop.batnet.com> References: <35663D67.5B400523@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980523145923.0068fb64@mail.wincom.net> At 12:02 AM 5/23/98 -0700, you wrote: >At 23:07 5/22/98 -0400, you wrote: >>Yeah, but you Brits have got _weird_ concepts in transportation. >>The Morris Minor for instance never should have been licensed as >>an automobile -- a four-wheeled powered bicycle on its best day. > >Eee, lad, y're not up on yer British automotive innovation. The >four-wheeled powered bicycle was the Berkeley Frisky. My other fave was >the Ginetta 1600 R, which is what you got when you crossed a Ford Cortina >with a bespoke tapered London suit. Then there was always, gawdelpus, the >three-wheel Morgan. >__________________________________________ >Kip Crosby engine@chac.org > http://www.chac.org/index.html >Computer History Association of California > > > How about the Austin Seven, in which, if I have been informed correctly, the oil would migrate up the steering column and drip into one's lap. Cheers Charlie Fox ('52 MG TD owner) From cad at gamewood.net Sat May 23 14:48:53 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: ADDITION/CORRECTION Re: Converting 220 to 110 References: <3566BE59.7A63@gamewood.net> Message-ID: <35672825.7BA7@gamewood.net> Charles A Davis wrote: > > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > Ok, I'm no electrical wiz. I have an old computer that wants 220. First > > of all, I got this computer without the 3-prong plug (it'd been cut off). > > Without paying attention to the "220" which was written on the transformer > > inside, I wired a plug onto the power cord and plugged it in. Needless to > > say the unit didn't come on, but I'm hoping that it didn't mess anything > > up. I wouldn't think it did. > > > > Anyway, what can I do to run this thing off of 110? The transformer has a > > solid black lead going to the black wire of the power cord (through the > > switch), a black lead with a white stripe looped back into the xformer via > > a white lead, and a blue lead with a white stripe connected to the red > > wire of the power cord (through the switch with an inline fuse...the fuse > > is fine). > > > > The side connected to the cpmputer board has a rainbow of seven colored > > wires in the order (from left to right): brown, red, orange, yellow, > > green, blue, violet. > > > > 1547 is stamped on the transformer. ?. > > > > I'd like to make this run off 110 without having to modify the actual unit > > itself. > > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > > > > Sam: > You are in luck. From your description of the wires available ---- > > (Check with an Ohm meter for continuity to be sure.) The White, and > Black wires _should_ be the ends of 'ONE of TWO' 110v windings. > > (1) After making sure that they are the ends of the same winding, apply > 110v. > > (2) Add the Black w/White stripe to the Black connection, and _carefully > measure the voltage between the White, and Blue w/White stripe. It will > be either '0', or '220' volts. ADDITION to (2) above. [ Also the voltage between the 'Black w/White stripe' and 'Blue w/White stripe will be 110v.] > > (3) IF it is zero, AND the addition (above) is true. > then that wire (Blue w/White stripe) hooks to the same place as the White wire, > > (3a) If the voltage is '220', then the Black w/White stripe goes with > the White wire, and the Blue w/White stripe goes with the White wire. > > Chuck > Sorry for the omission above. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From cgregory at lrbcg.com Sat May 23 15:44:13 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... Message-ID: <014501bd868b$8d13c0a0$c227a2ce@cliffgre> There were several manufacturers who made drives for the Commodore line of computers. I have two or three examples around here someplace. Chinon is a name that comes to mind, but I know there were several more as well. Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Cgregory Date: Saturday, May 23, 1998 2:34 AM Subject: Re: Prices to pay for old computers... >Well, if you're alluding to the Disk ][, this was not an effort by Apple >to be "non-standard", but was basically due to the brilliant hacks of >Steve Wozniak in adding an inexpensive and simple disk controller to the >Apple ][. And as far as aftermarket goes, I can't think of even one drive >that was made to work on any Commodore that wasn't manufactured by >Commodore, but I myself have at least five examples of disk drives made >for the Apple by random no name manufacturers. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Ever onward. > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 05/11/98] > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 23 15:29:24 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Apple ][ stuff In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail "Re: Apple ][ stuff" (May 22, 22:50) References: Message-ID: <9805232129.ZM26865@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 22, 22:50, Sam Ismail wrote: > Apple ][: Integer BASIC in ROM; normally had "manual start" ROMs > (required the user to boot the machine by punching in an > address and the GO command in the monitor) > Apple ][+: AppleSoft BASIC in ROM; autostart ROMs > Apple //e: Lowercase, 64K, 80 columns The ][+ also has different refresh circuitry for the DRAMs, and doesn't need the configuration blocks found in ]['s. The //e has a more comprehensive keyboard than the ][+ and can generate all the ASCII characters from the keyboard. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 23 15:24:30 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: Russ/Alice Blakeman "Re: Prices to pay for old computers..." (May 22, 19:52) References: <35661DD4.1717358E@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <9805232124.ZM26861@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 22, 19:52, Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote: > My understanding of Commode-Ore is that there is a chip within the cassette > interface that allows the pooter to talk to the cassette drive. Not quite; the C2N decks have TTL-level in/out and a motor control line, all on a funny connector. The other three connections are +5V, ground, and "switch", which is a contact that senses when the PLAY key is pressed. They're controlled (at least in a PET) by part of a standard 6520 PIA (Commodore's copy of a 6820). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sat May 23 16:06:56 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Cassette formats (was: Prices to pay for old computers...) Message-ID: <199805232106.RAA05299@capehenry.cs.unc.edu> On Fri, 22 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: ] According to the specs in the TechRef, any standard audio cassette ] recorder would work. There's even a link to set the PC's output voltage ] to suit either microphone or aux (line level) inputs. ] ] The pinout of the PC cassette connector is the same as that on a TRS-80, ] and the same cable works. My guess is this is not a coincidence - IBM ] probably intended PC owners to go to the local Tandy/Radio Shack and buy a ] cassette recorder and cable. When you say TRS-80, does that by any chance include TRS-80 Color Computers? Did they also adopt the tape format, in addition to the connector pinout? At one time or another, I was struck by the similarity of the CoCo's cassette format and the now-ancient Kansas City Standard. Were they actually identical? Did RS implement the KCS for the CoCo, or was it just something kinda similar? And if TRS-80-->CoCo and CoCo-->KCS, does that mean that maybe IBM just adopted KCS instead of making up their own format? (A shocking idea, I admit...) This is not entirely a moot point, because I have a CoCo handy, and an old KCS tape that I got almost by accident. I've been tempted to just slap it in and see if the CoCo can read it, but from previous discussions on the life cycle of mag tapes, I gather I might get only one chance to read the data. I don't want to waste that one chance until I am sure I have something that can actually read KCS. Eventually, I suppose I'll just write my own loader and be done with it. But it would be awfully nice if it was already done for me. Cheers, Bill. From rax at warbaby.com Sat May 23 18:21:48 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: <35665B51.1B406EA4@cnct.com> References: <35661DD4.1717358E@bbtel.com> <35664B3C.50EAF502@cnct.com> <35665329.6148@gamewood.net> Message-ID: May I respectfully request that, when a thread evolves into a different topic we change the subject header? It would save a lot of time when scanning messages to decide which to read. I get about 400 emails a day, and accurate subject headers make it a little less daunting task. Thanks, R. -- Robert Arnold Managing Editor The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Creator and Eminence Grise Warbaby: The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. muahahahahaaaaa http://www.warbaby.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 23 12:03:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: <356620E1.138A2FC6@bbtel.com> from "Russ/Alice Blakeman" at May 22, 98 08:05:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1904 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980523/e774e013/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 23 11:54:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: <35661DD4.1717358E@bbtel.com> from "Russ/Alice Blakeman" at May 22, 98 07:52:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1909 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980523/607237d3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 23 13:54:40 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 22, 98 10:55:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 365 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980523/752fddf2/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Sat May 23 18:01:11 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) References: <01BD85C8.6F2B3D20@slip166-72-159-84.nc.us.ibm.net> <35664611.F6D4EC12@cnct.com> <356678A7.65267B31@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <35675537.3DF7514E@rain.org> Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote: > > So it's unanimous - all Sanyo MBC-55x machines, working or not, that > are not a part of a Camry fender, are to be executed immediately to > save our planet. Well, I have three and while they are not (IMHO) a significant part of computer history, they do play a part in the scheme of things and thus are worthwhile keeping. Hmmm, judging by all the comments on this list, maybe they were a significant part of computer history :). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 23 12:49:28 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: <35665329.6148@gamewood.net> from "Charles A Davis" at May 23, 98 00:40:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 809 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980523/75ab9f34/attachment.ksh From KFergason at aol.com Sat May 23 18:06:39 1998 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... Message-ID: <1cd45d4b.35675680@aol.com> Chinon made (makes?) a mechanism, but I wasn't aware it made an actual Commodore drive. Blue Chip, MSD, CompuThink (Pet days), hmm Fsomething, the Accelerator? All those ad's coming back. CMD, obviously. Any more? Kelly In a message dated 5/23/98 3:46:24 PM Central Daylight Time, cgregory@lrbcg.com writes: > There were several manufacturers who made drives for the Commodore line of > computers. I have two or three examples around here someplace. Chinon is a > name that comes to mind, but I know there were several more as well. > > >Apple ][. And as far as aftermarket goes, I can't think of even one drive > >that was made to work on any Commodore that wasn't manufactured by > >Commodore, but I myself have at least five examples of disk drives made > >for the Apple by random no name manufacturers. > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 23 14:14:28 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Converting 220 to 110 In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 23, 98 01:00:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3877 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980523/e0c9e68f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 23 18:07:28 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Cassette formats (was: Prices to pay for old computers...) In-Reply-To: <199805232106.RAA05299@capehenry.cs.unc.edu> from "Bill Yakowenko" at May 23, 98 05:06:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1573 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980524/555a7791/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 23 18:09:22 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at May 23, 98 11:26:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980524/59b48a6d/attachment.ksh From ecloud at goodnet.com Sat May 23 18:12:35 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? In-Reply-To: <199805231622.AA11715@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at May 23, 98 12:22:53 pm Message-ID: <199805232312.QAA03099@goodnet.com> > They already do but by MS license they can put linix in it and still pay > MS. Till that stops they will be dos boxen. That's unfortunate indeed. > > I'm not in business to write schematic capture or PCB routing software. His point was just that then your alternative is to wait for someone else to... BTW, there is schematic capture and PCB layout software but I don't know if it does routing. > If I did I'd do it on the VAX before I would for a PC. And likely there would only be a handful of users after you got it done, on such an uncommon experimenters' machine. > I just recently got REDhat version to try in place of the former > slackeware and it's easier to install but known solid dos apps still > die in the middle and the few windows apps are unusable. The install You judge RH by how well it runs DOS and Windows apps? Being able to do that at all is just a fringe benefit. Emulation is nasty work. > was easier and it supported fewer devices. The docs were nearly current > and I'm still trying to understand configuring IP networking. It's Networking is not hard by any means. Just a couple of lines in your startup scripts (add the device, add relevant routing). Course, RedHat may be muddying the water somewhat if their GUIs are not that great. (I haven't used RH but I know they like GUI control panels for everything... which is OK except when the GUI's are incomplete, confusing or buggy.) If you need help with the rc lines let me know. > potential is there, the implimentation is still "you gotta be a unix > head". I still find the idea of device drivers as part of the kernel > requiring a compile to install some new device odious. Loadable drivers > are done in many OSs. This last item is wy PCs with their nearly the Linux does loadable drivers too - they're called "modules", and most of them can even be set up to load and unload automatically; if you don't use the device for a while, its driver automatically goes away to save memory. This is especially helpful for dealing with conflicting devices. But most people aren't yet in the habit of making kernels with every possible driver module, and like you say below, some must be configured for particular hardware anyway. Even so, configuring and building a new kernel is also dead easy. > same with millions of subtle versions either run well or just sorta. If you're going to write one driver that works with "millions of subtle versions" then all the alternatives are somewhat odious - code to the lowest common denominator; detect all possible subtle versions and have a lot of conditional workarounds; or configure it for the particular subtle version at compile-time. Various drivers for various hardware have taken various approaches, depending on which one the author felt best solved the problem for the kind of hardware. Personally I like the middle approach most of the time. But ideally there wouldn't be so many hardware differences; if you want that kind of world, switch to a Mac or some other vendor who controls all the hardware made for their computers. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * eschew obfuscation * ham radio * emusic * sci fi * 808 State * Java * From donm at cts.com Sat May 23 18:16:56 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:05 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > It's simple: > > > > DB-25 male: serial port > > > > DB-25 female: parallel port > > Can you please explain, then, why all my modems have female connetors? > Surely I shouldn't connect them to a parallel port ? > > (Yes, I know about DTE vs DCE. I'm just making sure you do :-)) > > > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > > -tony > > Well, it is reasonably logical, and means that, physical interference aside, you can plug your external modem directly into the 25-pin serial port. The cable simply puts it in a more convenient location. - don From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat May 23 20:08:33 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: 1.2Mb Teac Floppy Question Message-ID: OK, the drive isn't a classic, but the computer it's going into definitly is. I finally got the CatWeasel Controller for the Amiga that I've been wanting. I'm putting it in a A2000 since that's the only thing I've got that can take a 5 1/4" floppy drive. I picked up a new Teac FD55BV-16-U floppy drive, and can't seem to get it to work with the controller. I think the problem is that I need to change the jumper settings. So I'm wondering if anyone has the jumper settings for one of these drives. As for the CatWeasel Controller, it's a controller that allows you to use normal PC floppy drives on an Amiga (they also make a PC version). It has the added benifit of being able to read numerous disk formats, which is why I got it. Once I get it figured out I'll write up a review for the list since I think it might be of serious intrest to every one here as a way to copy old floppies onto an archival CD-R or whatever media you want. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat May 23 19:15:19 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Voltages on S/34 DC distribution panel Message-ID: <13358074595.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> The plate at the very top of this assembly is +5V distribution. The smaller plate just below and left of it is the O/C Sense Plate. Pins on middle DC panel: +5 VDC Feature PS B +12VDC Feature PS A +12VDC Feature PS A (Or regulator) ditto -4VDC base -4vdc base +6vdc base -5vdc base ditto ditto +8.5 vdc base ditto +24VDC base ditto -24VDC base The bottom panel is the Feature Distribution Assembly Pins: +5VDC Feature PS C ditto +8.5VDC +12VDC -5VDC -12VDC +5VDC Feature PS D ditto There! This came from the IBM System/34 5340 System Unit Maintenance Manual. (SY31-0457-5) ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 23 19:28:39 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Z80 disassembler for unix ? Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 309 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980524/bbd8d5a5/attachment.ksh From desieh at southcom.com.au Sat May 23 20:25:08 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... Message-ID: <00f501bd86b2$de44e680$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Kip Crosby To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, 23 May 1998 2:09 Subject: RE: Prices to pay for old computers... >At 16:31 5/22/98 +0100, you wrote: >>back on topic though, what cassette unit could be connected up to the >>original PC machines? Was it a custom IBM unit only (similar to the way >>the C64's only accept Commodore tape decks), or could anything be used >>if a cable was made up? > >There was a discussion on here a while back about whether IBM had ever made >cassette decks to attach to that port, and IIRC, the outcome was >inconclusive. If such a thing existed, certainly there were never many of >them. In general, the favorite commodity cassette recorder for the purpose >was one of the long Panasonics with the carrying handle. >__________________________________________ >Kip Crosby engine@chac.org > http://www.chac.org/index.html >Computer History Association of California > > email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm yes a cable is needed on one end it has the plug for the IBM and on the other it has 2 connectors for the input and output on the cassette player.... From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 23 21:51:51 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Cassette formats (was: Prices to pay for old computers...) Message-ID: <199805240251.AA19277@world.std.com> CoCo and CoCo-->KCS, References: Message-ID: <199805240308.NAA28296@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 11:07 PM 22-05-98 -0400, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: >Yeah, but you Brits have got _weird_ concepts in transportation. >The Morris Minor for instance never should have been licensed as >an automobile -- a four-wheeled powered bicycle on its best day. Hey, this is getting personal :-) The world seems a different place behind the wheel of my 1948 Minor Low Light. I'll admit it's not powerful, but that's not the point! To add a little (very small) bit of historical computing content, I always try to think of the way the world was when "Bertie" (the car) was built. It's hard to think of an effectively no-computer world. I often wonder what I'd have done for a living if I'd been born 50 years earlier... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat May 23 22:39:08 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: 11/34a help Message-ID: Hello list. Having three (3!!) *entire* days off, I have decided to try and make one nice PDP11 system out of the various Bits and Pieces strewn about the place. And I have naturally run into a brick wall that I have not the knowledge or experience to scale. So I turn to the Experts and Gurus for a 'boost over'. I have two complete PDP11/34a systems and an 11/04, configured similarly with RK05s, RX01s and RL02s. One of these systems was actually working, and it's RK05 (0) died. In the (loooong) process of trouble shooting, I found that the entire system's DCLO line was the culprit, but after fixing that, the system never would boot out of ODT again... all ok, I'll deal with it later. Now later has come. I wish to have one working 11/34 system, with two RL02s, an RK05, a Decwriter III for the console, a Kennedy 9trk tape, a punch/reader, and at least one of the big SMD drives I have (System Industries 470MB Fujis) I have all of the above hardware save the formatter/IO for the Kennedy. Right now, I have a minimum system in a BA11 with the programmer's console: M8265 M8266 M7859 M9312 M7891 BF M7891 BF M7856 M9302 Power supplies have been checked are in spec. Bus grant cards are in (and undisturbed from when the thing actually used to *run) The DL11 is hooked to a known good VT100. On power-up, the Console shows all 0000000 and the 'Run' led... data can be entered into the disply but apparently not deposited... There is no SLU response on power-up, and I have an RS232 sniffer in the line and it indicates the proper static levels, but no data. I know this might not be enough info... but its a start. begin(whine) It's no fun having tons of gear in your living room if it just sits there whirring loudly... end(whine) Thanks in Advance John PS: Im trying to 'thin' my collection a little to concentrate on the PDP11 series... anyone in the SoCal area who would like to trade 'experience' for equipment... Mostly Plessey-badge Clones and probably the 11/04, various drives and bits and parts... I have a truck and can deliver... thanks From dastar at wco.com Sun May 24 00:36:57 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Many interesting things learned today Message-ID: I met with my latest VCF2 speaker, Ray Holt, today, and boy does he have some stories to tell. The guy is amazing. His first commercial work was with AMI, which made microprocessors and custom logic back in the early 70's. Ray was responsible for the AMI 7200 and 7300 processors. AMI decided to drop their microprocessor line in the 1973 timeframe saying, according to Ray, that "there was no future in general purpose microprocessors, and everyone was moving towards custom controllers." :) Ray joined a consulting firm called Compata, Inc., and for a while he was working for Intel as a subcontractor with his soon-to-be business partner, Manuel Lemas, training engineers in different high-tech companies how to use the Intellec-4 (based on the Intel 4004). I only just learned that there was indeed an Intellec-4 from some material Ray gave me. Neat. He then went on to start his own company with Manny Lemas called Microcomputer Associates Inc. There he created the JOLT computer and later the Super JOLT. The JOLT was 6502 based and had a current loop and RS-232 interface. It also featured a ROM called the "DEMON" (DEbugger/MONitor). Tens of thousands were produced, and the JOLT is still in production today(!) used in embedded controller applications. Ray brought along the original JOLT prototype to show me. Two amazing things about this computer. It was made in the early-mid 1975 timeframe (very soon after the Altair hit the streets) and included a complete computer (CPU, RAM, ROM, current-loop/serial interface) on a PCB about 4"x8"! This is amazing for that timeframe. It could be expanded up to 64K with add-on RAM boards that piggy-backed to the main computer, and he also made Peripheral Interface Adapter (PIA) cards for it, as well as a cassette controller card that could control up to three data recorders on one board! The system he showed me had the interface board and two extra 4K RAM boards stacked with the main computer board. He also had a good story to tell. One day some guy named Steve Wozniak came by and bought a JOLT from him. A few months later he heard about the Apple 1, and then the Apple ][. Interesting, no? Ray later designed a computer called the VIM-1 (Versatile Interface Module). The VIM-1 was Ray's answer to the Mostek KIM-1. His company was then acquired by Synertek, and the VIM-1 was changed to the SYM-1. Ray brought along the 25,000th SYM-1 which was given to him as a token of achievement by Synertek. All the traces were etched with gold. Ray said there were about 50,000 SYM-1's produced (there was also a SYM-2) before Synertek folded. The story behind that is Synertek was bought by Honeywell, and Honeywell, through poor management, ran the Synertek division into the ground. Ray said there is still a guy running a company in San Jose with a name that has "SYM" in it (SYMCOM?) who still produces or maintains SYM-1 boards for the many, many clients who still have them in use. 50,000 units is a huge number, and this just makes me laugh harder when I hear about "collectors" paying $405 for a SYM-1 on eBay. PS. I ended up with an original copy of the SYM-1 schematics. Ray then told me his remarkable version of the origins of the TRS-80 Model 1. Ray's company was approached by Radio Shack to build a computer for them that they wanted to market. Ray put together a working prototype in about a week from scratch that included Micro-Soft BASIC, 4K RAM, an integrated monitor, and an integrated keyboard. He and Manny then flew to Texas to demonstrate the unit. The RS folks were thrilled, and asked if they could hold onto the unit for a few days to look it over. Without signing anything, Ray and Manny agreed and went back home. A few days passed and they hadn't heard anything from RS, so they called them up but were told to chill. More time had passed with no response from RS and they started getting anxious. Finally, after a month of calling to find out when they would get their computer back, a box arrived one day in the mail. In it was the remains of their prototype, hacked to pieces. It was obvious that it had been reverse engineered. A short while later, Ray found out that the computer RS decided to release as their TRS-80 Model 1 was based on the design Ray had come up with! They went to a lawyer but were told that there was nothing that could be done since they didn't even have a receipt for their plane ride to Texas signed-off by Radio Shack (they paid for the plane tickets themselves). Ray said he later learned that the project manager who Ray and Manny had dealt with took credit for the TRS-80 design! The guy took Ray's design and passed it on to corporate as his own! Comments from you RS-heads? Allison? Ward? Ray's had a very fruitful career, and is responsible for at least 3 of the true classics we collectors seek out. But of what I've told you here, it pales in comparison to the work Ray Holt did prior to his days at AMI. Of course this is a teaser. We're saving that for VCF2. So if you want to hear it first, make plans to come to VCF2. Otherwise, read about it in the papers. :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From adam at merlin.net.au Sun May 24 01:42:14 1998 From: adam at merlin.net.au (Adam Jenkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Compaq Portable in OZ????? In-Reply-To: <00c001bd82df$c2596bc0$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> Message-ID: Hi! >anyone on this list in OZ have a original Compaq Portable they want to >sell/trade or give away?? Have you had any luck? And why in particular are you after one of these? I picked up one today for my collection, although it is a plus, and at this stage I would rather keep it. However someone had offered me one previously and I can try and chase that one up, and I am pretty sure I have seen one or two elsewhere around Adelaide. Adam. From gram at cnct.com Sun May 24 06:11:21 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ? References: <199805231228.IAA08036@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <35680059.D8D4E1B2@cnct.com> Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > Unix came along after I was hooked on RT11, RSTS, VAX/VMS. > One of the things that made Unix successful was it's spread through > universities. Once you get hooked on an OS you tend to want to > stay with it. AT&T was very lucky with Unix and no one's been > able to duplicate the spread except Linux. If I'd stayed in college instead of enlisting in the USAF due to lack of funds for things like tuition and food, chances are I would have gotten into the DEC systems at Georgia Tech. > (Now I'm at Lucent Technologies in Holmdel and I'm being pushed to NT > and Microsoft OS stuff... 8-( ) Yeah. I still regret assembling that NT network at AT&T Corporate Security in Bridgewater, but that's where I was sent by my boss at the Lincroft (GIS) facility a few years back, and I _still_ have that damned addiction to food. > The problem is I need to be "MS Word and MS Excel bug and file compatible" > to do my job (Sys Admin)... this gets me to using Win95 on my > desktop. At Prudential in Roseland last year, my desktop was running Redhat Linux with Caldera WABI -- so I was able to get away with it almost unnoticed running the 16-bit MS Office and Lotus Notes modules. Of _course_ that was contrary to corporate standards. > (I know NT's better -- but the @##$%&^* desktop's a 486 with 16MB memory). NT's better than what? (I have NT Server on my desk at work now, and I can't lose it because nobody's come out with a Linux driver for the plug & play version of token ring card I've got -- the rest of the building is 100 Mb Ethernet, but _my_ lab is still token ring and probably will be for longer than this contract lasts. (I gotta get away, after all these years as a Sysadmin, I got roped into doing software QA again -- been there, done that, burned the t-shirt). Oh, OBclassicmp -- at the Lincroft NJ AT&T facility two years ago, there was at least one 3B1 still in use in a lab I couldn't access but could see through the door, and at Prudential in Roseland there must be several hundred IBM PS2 Model 80's that they haven't figured out how to throw away. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Sun May 24 06:31:33 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Changin subjects (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers...) References: <35661DD4.1717358E@bbtel.com> <35664B3C.50EAF502@cnct.com> <35665329.6148@gamewood.net> Message-ID: <35680515.30441FA9@cnct.com> Rax wrote: > > May I respectfully request that, when a thread evolves into a different > topic we change the subject header? It would save a lot of time when > scanning messages to decide which to read. I get about 400 emails a day, > and accurate subject headers make it a little less daunting task. Well, editing the headers can slow you down when you're on a roll (or a rant). Plus, some newsreaders deal with it poorly when you're following a thread -- I know Netscrape isn't that skilled (and we're not talking the Windows version, this is a Linux box). > Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. Why? They don't look any more stupid than on anybody else. Dreadlocks on _anybody_ looks like crap. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Sun May 24 06:38:53 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... References: <199805230624.XAA23903@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <199805231631.JAA15344@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <356806CD.6585DBD5@cnct.com> Frank McConnell wrote: > > I wrote: > > Except...on a peculiar ISA dual-port serial card that HP made > > for the early HP Vectras. One D?-9S like a PC/AT serial > > port, one DB-25S. To be fair, HP put a plastic tag out one side > > of the slot to remind you that this was a serial port. > > Doggone it, I screwed up. The 9-pin connector is male, the 25-pin > connector is female. So what you had sticking through the back > plate was a 9-pin connector on top, a 25-pin connector on bottom, > and a little plastic tag with orange print to one side of the > 25-pin connector reminding you that this was a serial port. > > Thinking about it this morning I think I also remember an HP > serial/parallel card with male 9-pin serial connector on top and > 25-pin female connector on bottom...and a little plastic tag with > black print to one side of the 25-pin connector reminding you that > this was a parallel port. > > Good thing we didn't have many of those latter ones around in my > shop, I was (still am, actually) in the habit of feeling out connectors > with my fingertips to work out where the plug is supposed to go. > > How did things get this way? Well, HP was in the habit of putting > female connectors on everything except cables and making their > minis look sort of like modems. I once heard this referred to as > "DTE in DCE drag" w/r/t the HP3000. I've always preferred to use setups where the hardware had female connectors and the cables were male, mostly because it's cheaper and easier to repair or replace a cable when a pin breaks than a CPU or other bit of capital equipment. But that's probably just me -- I'm lazy, clumsy and cheap (and proud of two of those). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Sun May 24 06:47:38 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... References: <014501bd868b$8d13c0a0$c227a2ce@cliffgre> Message-ID: <356808DA.D7832021@cnct.com> Cliff Gregory wrote: > > There were several manufacturers who made drives for the Commodore line of > computers. I have two or three examples around here someplace. Chinon is a > name that comes to mind, but I know there were several more as well. Chinon was the manufacturer for all of the Amiga 3.5 drives, we used to replace them with TEAC drives before they went out the door. But these were usually $15-20k A-2000 systems for Hollywood, possibly they weren't such a drawback in home systems. > -----Original Message----- > From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > To: Cgregory > Date: Saturday, May 23, 1998 2:34 AM > Subject: Re: Prices to pay for old computers... > > >Well, if you're alluding to the Disk ][, this was not an effort by Apple > >to be "non-standard", but was basically due to the brilliant hacks of > >Steve Wozniak in adding an inexpensive and simple disk controller to the > >Apple ][. And as far as aftermarket goes, I can't think of even one drive > >that was made to work on any Commodore that wasn't manufactured by > >Commodore, but I myself have at least five examples of disk drives made > >for the Apple by random no name manufacturers. > > > >Sam Alternate e-mail: > dastar@siconic.com > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > >Ever onward. > > > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 > > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > > [Last web page update: 05/11/98] > > > > -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Sun May 24 07:03:52 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: [Rare systems] & Garry Kildor References: <01BD862D.A0FE1BA0@ppp-151-164-56-54.rcsntx.swbell.net> Message-ID: <35680CA8.CCD1C423@cnct.com> Bob Withers wrote: > > The following quote is from Forbes Magazine 80th anniversary issue: > > "On July 6, 1994 Kildall, 52, walked into a Monterey bar. He was wearing > motorcycle leathers with Harley-Davidson patches-a would-be biker. There were > some real bikers in the bar. Something was said. There was pushing and > shoving, and Kildall died from injuries sustained to his head. An inquest > called the death 'suspicious,' but no one was charged." Well, it wouldn't be the first time I've been publicly wrong on this mailing list. (I don't read "Forbes", I get my data from computer magazines, the Newark Star-Ledger and [when I'm faxing resumes] the NYTimes -- though on occasion I've paused for a minute when flipping channels if the news sounded interesting or amusing). I do recall that the first time I heard about Gary's death was a few months after the fact. > ---------- > From: Ward Donald Griffiths III[SMTP:gram@cnct.com] > Sent: Friday, May 22, 1998 8:53 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: [Rare systems] & Garry Kildor > > Desie Hay wrote: > > > >I'm sure a lot of people wish Bill Gates were in Gary's shoes (so to > > speak). > > > > > > > > well yes I suppose........but didnt Garry get killed in a bar fight a few > > years ago??? > > No, he died of a heart attack after a good number of years on the PBS > "Computer Chronicles" show. > > > No old Billy Gates has brought some good into this world............ > > but 99.9999% of what he has done is just to steal and steal.......... > > Bill Gates and I are a month apart in age. My zits cleared up, he > became a billionaire. I guess we're even. > -- > Ward Griffiths > They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Sun May 24 07:12:50 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Vax 785 and microcars References: <199805240308.NAA28296@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <35680EC2.C28CECD3@cnct.com> Huw Davies wrote: > > At 11:07 PM 22-05-98 -0400, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > >Yeah, but you Brits have got _weird_ concepts in transportation. > >The Morris Minor for instance never should have been licensed as > >an automobile -- a four-wheeled powered bicycle on its best day. > > Hey, this is getting personal :-) The world seems a different place behind > the wheel of my 1948 Minor Low Light. I'll admit it's not powerful, but > that's not the point! > > To add a little (very small) bit of historical computing content, I always > try to think of the way the world was when "Bertie" (the car) was built. > It's hard to think of an effectively no-computer world. I often wonder what > I'd have done for a living if I'd been born 50 years earlier... Not something I tend to dwell upon, since after I was born in 1955 I spent almost a month in an an incubator -- if I'd been born even ten years earlier my chance of living long enough to be circumcised would have been slim. (Rh factor incompatibility). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Sun May 24 07:18:13 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) References: <01BD85C8.6F2B3D20@slip166-72-159-84.nc.us.ibm.net> <35664611.F6D4EC12@cnct.com> <356678A7.65267B31@bbtel.com> <35675537.3DF7514E@rain.org> Message-ID: <35681005.C63D2F19@cnct.com> Marvin wrote: > > Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote: > > > > So it's unanimous - all Sanyo MBC-55x machines, working or not, that > > are not a part of a Camry fender, are to be executed immediately to > > save our planet. > > Well, I have three and while they are not (IMHO) a significant part of > computer history, they do play a part in the scheme of things and thus > are worthwhile keeping. Hmmm, judging by all the comments on this list, > maybe they were a significant part of computer history :). Well, I wouldn't call them a significant part of computer history, but they _do_ stand out in the memories of those who had to deal with them. (The few, the proud, the ...) -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From kroma at worldnet.att.net Sun May 24 07:56:47 1998 From: kroma at worldnet.att.net (kroma) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Z80 disassembler for unix ? Message-ID: <006101bd8713$6ad64e80$7e86440c@kroma-i> >I am looking for a free (gpl, etc) Z80 diassembler for unix (linux, if it >makes any difference). A quick web search has revealed nothing, but >before I write my own, I wonder if anyone else has come across anything. > Check out http://www.gr.osf.org/~emcmanus/programs/makedis.html -- Kirk From allisonp at world.std.com Sun May 24 08:07:24 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Many interesting things learned today Message-ID: <199805241307.AA03345@world.std.com> <356579B0.AC752168@bbtel.com> <3566323B.E821A899@cnct.com> <356677DE.94D5433@bbtel.com> <3566C327.4DB6B009@cnct.com> Message-ID: <35683FEC.F831777F@bbtel.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Yes, I used to sit on some of the $5000 toilet seats when I was in the > USAF. But the $190 screwdrivers broke easier than my $1.90 Craftsman. > (They wouldn't let Avionics techs have hammers -- might have encouraged > us to use them to fix the _real_ source of most of the problems, the > stick actuators [pilots]). I know, we had "open between the headsets" as the probable cause of more Sidewinder "no tone" writeups than we did actual missile errors. It sure was amazing though that the WSO's actually were college graduates. As per the Z248 topic we started on, I got three more yesterday and the seller told me that they were all totalled and just for parts. All three (at $5 each complete with 251-1 HDD's, 2 in each) are singing along smoothly and running Win 3.11 this morning. Amazing how they came back to live after being pronounced DOA. They all have the Zenith low VGA video card, 1.6mb RAM, 1.2mb and 1.44mb floppies, 14.4mb modems, and the Zenith VGA monitors, with the cooling fan built in. Since seeing this on Zenith monitors a few years back I realized the benefit of it and I always retrofit my own with their own fans and haven't had a heat related failure yet. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun May 24 10:45:02 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old References: Message-ID: <3568407E.280EB3F@bbtel.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > deal. Finding the boards in either configuration is the main idea here, > > you can always get 4164 DRAMs. > > Actually I think you mean 4116 RAMs here. > Nope, 4164's are what came in them and what work. It may be that they're interchangeable, the 4116's and 4164's... -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun May 24 10:52:11 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Converting 220 to 110 References: Message-ID: <3568422B.9F0800DE@bbtel.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > Ok, I'm no electrical wiz. I have an old computer that wants 220. First > of all, I got this computer without the 3-prong plug (it'd been cut off). > Without paying attention to the "220" which was written on the transformer > inside, I wired a plug onto the power cord and plugged it in. Needless to > say the unit didn't come on, but I'm hoping that it didn't mess anything > up. I wouldn't think it did. Part of it is whether it wants 50 cycle/hz power at 220. Most 220 power (Europe) is 50 hz as opposed to 110/117v US power at 60 cycles/hz. This can definitley make a difference. I used to have a covertor schematic somewhere that allowed sine wave conversion to 50, 60 and 400 hz output but it apparently vanished with a few other things when I moved from kansas when I retired from the USAF. You can get away with running 220 60hz to machinery that are motor oriented. My lathe is a 220v 50 OR 60 hz machine but of course there's no electronics involved in it, just plain analog electrical theory. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun May 24 10:56:51 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) References: <01BD85C8.6F2B3D20@slip166-72-159-84.nc.us.ibm.net> <35664611.F6D4EC12@cnct.com> <356678A7.65267B31@bbtel.com> <35675537.3DF7514E@rain.org> Message-ID: <35684343.58EEC020@bbtel.com> Marvin wrote: > Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote: > > > > So it's unanimous - all Sanyo MBC-55x machines, working or not, that > > are not a part of a Camry fender, are to be executed immediately to > > save our planet. > > Well, I have three and while they are not (IMHO) a significant part of > computer history, they do play a part in the scheme of things and thus > are worthwhile keeping. Hmmm, judging by all the comments on this list, > maybe they were a significant part of computer history :). Just like Clinton, someone is bound to have a liking for an otherwise worthless item. My remark about the Snayo's was a sarcasm as a result of using and modifiying dozens of them and dealing with a top dollar machine that was substandard for way to long. There was no intention on offending anyone that is actually attached to the things. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun May 24 11:07:12 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: If I had a hammer (OT) References: <1998May21.133900.1767.105314@smtp.itgonline.com> <356579B0.AC752168@bbtel.com> <3.0.5.32.19980523090831.00f96a10@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <356845AF.E9F6ED9E@bbtel.com> Kip Crosby wrote: > At 02:16 5/23/98 -0500, Russ wrote: > >It's jealousy really. I'm sure most of us wish we could buy top of the > line machines > >for ourselves....I actually got > >to use some of those $250 hammers and $190 screwdrivers while I was a missile > >maintainer. > > But are they any _better?_ I mean, once you get to Snap-on, isn't a tool a > tool? The whole debate on the specialty tools for the miltary was viewed as someone buying "off the rack" tools for 1000% more than the actual value. The tools usually came about as special tools, made to maintain or operate a particular item of equipment of aircraft. We had screws on the Air Launched Cruise missile that had a coin slot type head and the tool to insert and remove them was only available (through contract) by the main contractor of the missile - Boeing, for a specified period of time. The actual manufacturer of this special tool was Snap-On and was no better than any other brand. When I first started in the AF, we had toolboxes full of Craftsman, Snap-On and other high quality tools. It also made them targets for theft, either while in the tool room or before they even made it to the shop, by those left in charge of their security. All of a sudden we started seeing KAL, Ivy, and other less than desireable brands being stocked. The hitch was that they were throw aways and were stamped with GSA designators to supposedly deter theft. All you former GI's and Civil Service workers that snagged a yellow handled Ivy screwdriver should check your tool boxes. If you have a tweeker that has "Ivy-GS" on the handle you've got a marked item. It does scrape off rather nicely with a pocket knife though. I bought a handful of them at a Ft. Knox surplus sale and even though I have a receipt, I just hate seeing that "GS" staring me in the face.Well, onto talking about Classic Computers again.. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun May 24 11:17:58 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) References: Message-ID: <35684835.6E6A37B9@bbtel.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > On Sat, 23 May 1998, Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote: > > > So it's unanimous - all Sanyo MBC-55x machines, working or not, that are > > not a part of a Camry fender, are to be executed immediately to save our > > planet. > > OK, I'll stick up for the Sanyo. I liked the keyboard. At a time when > the only alternative was the IBM clicker, it was great to have a nice > quiet keyboard with just the right amount of key travel. The Microswitch > keyboards that came later for the PC were the only thing that I liked > better. Not bad considering you had no ALT key. > It had TEAC floppy drives. And that was the first thing I pulled to put into my neat little Taiwan Clone 8088 turbo. Teac drives are still me favorites. > Even though it was a bit odd to have an Apple-compatible joystick port, at > least it wasn't an add-on option like IBM's. Due to the fact it had no card slots, so you had to buy everything from Sanyo. I did take a header/DIP connection that plugs into the chip soket and ran a cable from it to a 15 pin d-sub on the outside of the case and then used a stock IBM analog type joystick from that point on. > It had composite output, so you didn't have to buy an expensive monitor as > you did with IBM. I have tons of original IBM CGA adapters from XT and AT machines that have composite outputs on them here. Just depended on what you wanted to spend. > It was *cheap*. I got mine for something like $600 at the San Diego Price > Club when IBM's were going for a coupla grand. There was no alternative > x86 box for poor folk until the Taiwanese came to town. I bought the clone that replaced the Sanyo for $200 in bare-bones config, new. That was case, power supply, one floppy, 640k memory, motherboard and 4.77/10 mhz processor (which I swapped out for a V20 later), keyboard and I/.O card with floppy and hard drive controller (1:1 interleave). All I had to do is drop in a hard drive, video card and monitor. The clone had a 100w (I think) power supply. I think the Sanyo had a 35w and it had to be modified to handle full RAM, video adapter, serial port and two floppies. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dastar at wco.com Sun May 24 13:53:07 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Many interesting things learned today In-Reply-To: <199805241307.AA03345@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 May 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > <(they paid for the plane tickets themselves). Ray said he later learned > < > > Close enough. The internal story was it was a design that was used on the > deektop of an engineer whose last name began with an L. Somehow I didn't > buy it. The TRS-80 design was not very imaginative and some of the holes > showed. What was scary is if the guy that did the trs-80 design was good > he could have reduced the logic some and also incresed the speed! Interesting. Now at least we know why the Model 1 was such a buggy machine. It was based on a design that was thrown together from scratch in a week! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Sun May 24 14:45:12 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Many interesting things learned today In-Reply-To: References: <199805241307.AA03345@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980524144512.007b9d10@wingate> At 11:53 AM 5/24/98 -0700, you wrote: >On Sun, 24 May 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > >>[snip] >> Close enough. The internal story was it was a design that was used on the >> deektop of an engineer whose last name began with an L. Somehow I didn't >> buy it. The TRS-80 design was not very imaginative and some of the holes >> showed. What was scary is if the guy that did the trs-80 design was good >> he could have reduced the logic some and also incresed the speed! > >Interesting. Now at least we know why the Model 1 was such a buggy >machine. It was based on a design that was thrown together from scratch >in a week! Being the suspicious type that I am, I have to wonder if the designer didn't "easter egg" the box somehow. After some of the dealings I've had with techno-shysters I sure would have. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Ever onward. > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 05/11/98] > > -- David Wollmann | dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. -- Your Personal Computers may be not be Year 2000 compliant! -- For information on how Year 2000 may affect your PCs and prototype IBM Year 2000 diagnostics and fixes: http://www.ibm.com/pc/year2000/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun May 24 14:51:18 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Questions, questions (OT) In-Reply-To: <35683FEC.F831777F@bbtel.com> References: <1998May21.133900.1767.105314@smtp.itgonline.com> <356579B0.AC752168@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980524145118.42a7ac94@intellistar.net> At 10:42 AM 5/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > >> Yes, I used to sit on some of the $5000 toilet seats when I was in the >> USAF. But the $190 screwdrivers broke easier than my $1.90 Craftsman. >> (They wouldn't let Avionics techs have hammers -- might have encouraged >> us to use them to fix the _real_ source of most of the problems, the >> stick actuators [pilots]). > >I know, we had "open between the headsets" as the probable cause of more Sidewinder "no >tone" writeups than we did actual missile errors. It sure was amazing though that the WSO's >actually were college graduates. There's nothing surprising about that. In fact, I'd say it's to be expected! Joe From marvin at rain.org Sun May 24 15:47:54 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) References: <01BD85C8.6F2B3D20@slip166-72-159-84.nc.us.ibm.net> <35664611.F6D4EC12@cnct.com> <356678A7.65267B31@bbtel.com> <35675537.3DF7514E@rain.org> <35684343.58EEC020@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <3568877A.194642CB@rain.org> Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote: > > Just like Clinton, someone is bound to have a liking for an otherwise > worthless item. My remark about the Snayo's was a sarcasm as a result > of > using and modifiying dozens of them and dealing with a top dollar > machine > that was substandard for way to long. There was no intention on > offending > anyone that is actually attached to the things. Not to worry, I have been following the discussion, caught the sarcasm, and was just throwing a little wood on the fire :). From william at ans.net Sun May 24 16:49:58 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Any time that you saw a piece of > > equipment with a DB-25 connector on it, it was almost certainly a RS-232 > > connection. Not entirely true - in fact, probably a dangerous assumption! The D style connectors date WAY back, when computers used tubes! > Main problem is that the Amphenol connector is too wide to properly fit > on a standard IBM card bracket (yes, OK, they should have made the > bracket wider...) Can you fit two DB connectors on a card bracket? That may be one reason they moved the RS-232 to the DE style. William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 24 16:30:23 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:06 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: <356806CD.6585DBD5@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at May 24, 98 07:38:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 791 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980524/fb87557e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 24 16:32:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Z80 disassembler for unix ? In-Reply-To: <006101bd8713$6ad64e80$7e86440c@kroma-i> from "kroma" at May 24, 98 08:56:47 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 522 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980524/c06c9bb1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 24 16:26:11 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: 11/34a help In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at May 23, 98 08:39:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2521 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980524/f0971ef7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 24 20:08:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: <3568407E.280EB3F@bbtel.com> from "Russ/Alice Blakeman" at May 24, 98 10:45:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 750 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980525/d4de3674/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 24 20:13:05 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Converting 220 to 110 In-Reply-To: <3568422B.9F0800DE@bbtel.com> from "Russ/Alice Blakeman" at May 24, 98 10:52:11 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1484 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980525/8dd4afdf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 24 20:18:43 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 24, 98 05:49:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1222 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980525/10ecaf9b/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun May 24 20:38:55 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old References: Message-ID: <3568CBAF.C347450E@bbtel.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The older (and possibly more valuable) 16K-64K system board uses 4116s. > Each row of 9 chips is 16K bytes of memory. Again, a maximum of 4 rows on > the board. That's probably what I was think ing since it was the XT I was just working on a week ago. Too many machines, too little gray matter. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun May 24 20:43:00 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... References: Message-ID: <3568CCA3.8FE305D@bbtel.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Any time that you saw a piece of > > > > equipment with a DB-25 connector on it, it was almost certainly a RS-232 > > > > connection. > > > > Not entirely true - in fact, probably a dangerous assumption! The D style > > connectors date WAY back, when computers used tubes! > > Agreed. The maximum voltage for a D connector (at least a decent one) is > something like 500V. A lot higher than most people expect. > > > > Main problem is that the Amphenol connector is too wide to properly fit > > > on a standard IBM card bracket (yes, OK, they should have made the > > > bracket wider...) > > > > Can you fit two DB connectors on a card bracket? That may be one reason > > they moved the RS-232 to the DE style. > > Exactly. The serial/parallel adapter came out with the AT - and that was > the first use of the DE-9 serial connector. And no, you couldn't fit 2 > DBs on a bracket. You can _just_ fit a DA and a DB on the same bracket - > I've seen multifunction cards that do that. Problem is, the IBM case has > a lip (so you don't scratch your hand on the board fixing screws) that's > not in most clones. Getting the plugs into one of those cards on a real > XT is interesting... The older 500v capable D connectors had solid pins though of a heavier guage. Has anyone noticed that many of them are lightweight guage and in some cases hollow? This drops the voltage and current capacity way down. I just repinned the connector on a VT 130 terminal for a local business and noticed the difference in the old pins and the new ones. You bend a new one and it breaks, and old one can sometimes be straightened unless it's kinked (and then cracks). -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From william at ans.net Sun May 24 21:37:49 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Agreed. The maximum voltage for a D connector (at least a decent one) is > something like 500V. A lot higher than most people expect. And then there are the high current pins found in some odd applications - pins the size of pencil erasers. There is another variation found on some Telco stuff that has a shield over the face of the connector, with little holes for the pins to pass thru. Somewhere I have a chart that has all of the configurations (probably according to the U.S. military) - there are a great deal of weird ones that never find thier way into home computers. William Donzelli william@ans.net From joltdesigner at usa.net Sun May 24 18:13:05 1998 From: joltdesigner at usa.net (Ray Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Many interesting things learned today In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980524144512.007b9d10@wingate> References: <199805241307.AA03345@world.std.com> Message-ID: > >Being the suspicious type that I am, I have to wonder if the designer >didn't "easter egg" the box somehow. After some of the dealings I've had >with techno-shysters I sure would have. > David, I didn't know better at that time and certainly I didn't plan on leaving it there. Ray Holt >> >>Sam Alternate e-mail: >dastar@siconic.com >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---- >>Ever onward. >> >> September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 >> See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! >> [Last web page update: 05/11/98] >> >> > > >-- >David Wollmann | >dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. >DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM >http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. >-- >Your Personal Computers may be not be Year 2000 compliant! >-- >For information on how Year 2000 may affect your PCs and >prototype IBM Year 2000 diagnostics and fixes: >http://www.ibm.com/pc/year2000/ > From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun May 24 22:34:21 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: 11/34a help #2 Message-ID: Thank you Tony, for your response. I will continue this here on the list for the possible benefit of other collectors... but private e-mail is welcome as well. (I am not re-posting my previous msgs or replies.. ) So: given an 11/34 with the regular (?) 9-slot system unit, from the right going left I have: cpu,cpu, console card+boot/term, 128Kmem, 128Kmem, slu/ltc, blank, blank, bus term. I removed the existing grant continuity cards. I have the printsets on these cards, and a selection of manuals, but not enough info to figure out the details of hardware config. As currently (above) set up, the machine is autisitic and the console malfunctions (no display and all leds lit dim. What is the deal with the slots? With the red/white guides? I can't remember or find out exactly *which* slots each module ought to be placed in. I have figured out the switch settings for the 9301 from the schematics, but it's the 48 on the SLU I'm scared of... any pointers to where I might find them listed? (DL11W, M7856) Thanks again... it's exciting to drag this thing out of it's coma.. JOhn From thorh at ismennt.is Sun May 24 21:47:54 1998 From: thorh at ismennt.is (Thorhallur Ragnarsson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: EMMATRONIC disk copy? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980525034751.0074684c@pop.ismennt.is> Does anyone know a computer called EMMATRONIC? It was used as a control computer for knitting machines some 15-20 years ago, the mechanics of the knitting machines are running fine, but now there is only one reliable system/program disk left. The maker of the knitting machines is out of business some time ago and so will the knitting machines soon be if I can not make the owner a backup copy of the disk! I have been told it's some sort of Apple II for the European market but then again I might be totally wrong. I need to copy a 5.25" disk for this system, the format is unknown and unfortunately the disk is known to be protected somehow (at least the EMMATRONIC refuses to copy it) and also I have no working Apples. Any ideas/suggestions? thanks in advance. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Thorhallur Ragnarsson Electronics Technician Bjarmastig 1 Verkmenntaskolinn Akureyri IS-600 AKUREYRI Box 280 Iceland IS-602 AKUREYRI E-Mail: thorh@ismennt.is Iceland -------------------------------------------------------------------- From thorh at ismennt.is Sun May 24 21:47:59 1998 From: thorh at ismennt.is (Thorhallur Ragnarsson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: 785 cc microcars (OT) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980525034757.00d00ab0@pop.ismennt.is> At 14:59 23.5.1998 -0400, you wrote: >At 12:02 AM 5/23/98 -0700, you wrote: >>At 23:07 5/22/98 -0400, you wrote: >>>Yeah, but you Brits have got _weird_ concepts in transportation. >>>The Morris Minor for instance never should have been licensed as >>>an automobile -- a four-wheeled powered bicycle on its best day. >> >>Eee, lad, y're not up on yer British automotive innovation. The >>four-wheeled powered bicycle was the Berkeley Frisky. My other fave was >>the Ginetta 1600 R, which is what you got when you crossed a Ford Cortina >>with a bespoke tapered London suit. Then there was always, gawdelpus, the >>three-wheel Morgan. >>__________________________________________ >>Kip Crosby engine@chac.org >> http://www.chac.org/index.html >>Computer History Association of California >> > How about the Austin Seven, in which, if I have been informed correctly, >the oil would migrate up the steering column and drip into one's lap. > > Cheers > Charlie Fox ('52 MG TD owner) > Hey, that subject line really hit me head on, so I hereby break the rule not to engage in an off-topic subject. You see, I subscribe to those two lists: classiccmp@u.washington.edu and suzuki4x4@unix.off-road.com and filter my E-Mail by the headers...... and then suddenly...... the exact displacement of my car engine shows up on the classiccmp list!! The car in question is a 1981, 785cc, Suzuki LJ-80, it's a kind of a micro-jeep really and it has no electronics whatsoever. Sorry, clearly off-topic but I just could not resist. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Thorhallur Ragnarsson Electronics Technician Bjarmastig 1 Verkmenntaskolinn Akureyri IS-600 AKUREYRI Box 280 Iceland IS-602 AKUREYRI E-Mail: thorh@ismennt.is Iceland -------------------------------------------------------------------- From gene at ehrich.com Mon May 25 07:30:51 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: IBM Scamp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199805251225.FAA06543@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Does anybody out there have information on the IBM Scamp which was their first abortive attempt in the late 60's to create a PC? ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.voicenet.com/~generic gene@ehrich.com Gene Ehrich P.O. Box 209 Marlton NJ 08053-0209 ------------------------------------------------------ From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Mon May 25 07:54:02 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: 11/34a help In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at May 23, 98 08:39:08 pm Message-ID: <199805251254.IAA10933@shell.monmouth.com> > On power-up, the Console shows all 0000000 and the 'Run' led... > data can be entered into the disply but apparently not deposited... > > There is no SLU response on power-up, and I have an RS232 sniffer in > the line and it indicates the proper static levels, but no data. > Sure looks like a bus grant problem. I think there's an NPR/NPG jumper problem, a loose bus grant chip (plug), or a not too well seated terminator some where. Bill From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon May 25 12:10:01 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980525093632.6e4fd76e@ricochet.net> At 01:46 PM 5/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >> Your hopes are dashed. The only pricey IBM PCs are the ones that had 16K >> installed at the factory and weren't upgraded. The 64K ones are relatively > >That's absurd (bordering on perverse) -- what could you DO with a machine >like that? (Yes, run BASIC and use cassettes... I know.) In my day, sonny, 16K was plenty of room. Back then, we knew how to program. It was an art. Not like the kids today, with their megabytes and Gooeys and write-once-read-many, magneto-optical, doohickies... (whups, gotta go, time for maaaatttlooock!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From gram at cnct.com Mon May 25 12:30:05 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old References: <3.0.16.19980525093632.6e4fd76e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3569AA9C.D641FBA@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 01:46 PM 5/22/98 -0700, you wrote: > >> Your hopes are dashed. The only pricey IBM PCs are the ones that had 16K > >> installed at the factory and weren't upgraded. The 64K ones are relatively > > > >That's absurd (bordering on perverse) -- what could you DO with a machine > >like that? (Yes, run BASIC and use cassettes... I know.) > > In my day, sonny, 16K was plenty of room. Back then, we knew how to > program. It was an art. Not like the kids today, with their megabytes and > Gooeys and write-once-read-many, magneto-optical, doohickies... (whups, > gotta go, time for maaaatttlooock!) When I was your age, K was nothing more than the last letter of "Canuck", (Sorry, this was about to get silly. Time to go upstairs, take my meds, and look with fond memory at my slide rule.) -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Mon May 25 13:49:53 1998 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: IBM Scamp In-Reply-To: <199805251225.FAA06543@mxu4.u.washington.edu> from "Gene Ehrich" at May 25, 98 08:30:51 am Message-ID: <199805251849.OAA21616@columbia.digiweb.com> > Does anybody out there have information on the IBM Scamp which was their > first abortive attempt in the late 60's to create a PC? Did this come out of IBM Hursley in the UK? I thinkl I might have some info at home, but won't be back there for another 3 weeks. I'll look it up then and post anything I find. Hans B Pufal From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon May 25 13:53:34 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: IBM System/3 disk packs... Message-ID: <13358540313.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I got a few disk packs (RL02-style thingies) from an IBM System/3 (What's that?) Any chance of reading these on my PDP-11? One has the label SYSGEN on it... Anyone else capable of reading these? ------- From donm at cts.com Mon May 25 14:01:38 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980525093632.6e4fd76e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 01:46 PM 5/22/98 -0700, you wrote: > >> Your hopes are dashed. The only pricey IBM PCs are the ones that had 16K > >> installed at the factory and weren't upgraded. The 64K ones are relatively > > > >That's absurd (bordering on perverse) -- what could you DO with a machine > >like that? (Yes, run BASIC and use cassettes... I know.) > > In my day, sonny, 16K was plenty of room. Back then, we knew how to > program. It was an art. Not like the kids today, with their megabytes and > Gooeys and write-once-read-many, magneto-optical, doohickies... (whups, > gotta go, time for maaaatttlooock!) You fooled me, Roger. I was expecting maaalooox! - don > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > From william at ans.net Mon May 25 15:39:43 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: IBM System/3 disk packs... In-Reply-To: <13358540313.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: > I got a few disk packs (RL02-style thingies) from an IBM System/3 (What's > that?) The S/3s are interesting machines, in that they went against the grain IBM set up with the S/360s. The idea of the S/360s was to unify IBMs product line, eliminating a bunch of completely non-interchangeable machines. One of the families to fall was the 1400 series, basically very simple machines made to replace punched card equipment. The S/360s, however, were overkill for such an applications - even the stripped down S/360 Model 20. IBM decided to spin off a new product line, using S/360 (and 370) technology to make an updated 1400 box. They did, coming out with the S/3s in the very early 1970s. > Any chance of reading these on my PDP-11? > One has the label SYSGEN on it... Probably not. Just do not destroy the disk packs (or reformat them), as I am sure they are far more rare that RL02 packs. > Anyone else capable of reading these? Does anyone have an S/3? I heard there was one in Canada, as well as one in Great Britain. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rcini at email.msn.com Mon May 25 15:59:49 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Best way to read N* disks?? Message-ID: <000301bd8820$304e22c0$6e21a7cd@bothell> Hello, all: What's the best way to read N* DSDD CPM disks on a PeeCee? I downloaded 22disk from Sydex, but the configuration file that lists the supported CPM types does not list Northstar. Maybe it's supported in the full version of 22disk. Anyone know? Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking Collector of classic computers <<<========== Reply Separator ==========>>> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 25 13:57:55 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... In-Reply-To: <3568CCA3.8FE305D@bbtel.com> from "Russ/Alice Blakeman" at May 24, 98 08:43:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 664 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980525/704ff327/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 25 14:20:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: 11/34a help #2 In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at May 24, 98 08:34:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3528 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980525/9b25c736/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon May 25 17:23:57 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) Message-ID: <19980525222357.25067.qmail@hotmail.com> I have some of those in an "Advanced Computer Products" catalog, 1985. $1299. Not much I can say about them. They look kinda like stereo systems and "Sanyo" means "crap" in russian. >Russ/Alice Blakeman wrote: >> >> So it's unanimous - all Sanyo MBC-55x machines, working or not, that >> are not a part of a Camry fender, are to be executed immediately to >> save our planet. > >Well, I have three and while they are not (IMHO) a significant part of >computer history, they do play a part in the scheme of things and thus >are worthwhile keeping. Hmmm, judging by all the comments on this list, >maybe they were a significant part of computer history :). > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 25 17:27:08 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Best way to read N* disks?? Message-ID: <199805252227.AA20441@world.std.com> < What's the best way to read N* DSDD CPM disks on a PeeCee? I download <22disk from Sydex, but the configuration file that lists the supported CP Thanks, but I've decided to give the thing to William Donzelli if he has the time to pick it up. If not, it's one less System/34 in the world (the administration cares not for computer history). > >The plate at the very top of this assembly is +5V distribution. >The smaller plate just below and left of it is the O/C Sense Plate. > >Pins on middle DC panel: >+5 VDC Feature PS B >+12VDC Feature PS A >+12VDC Feature PS A (Or regulator) >ditto >-4VDC base >-4vdc base >+6vdc base >-5vdc base >ditto >ditto >+8.5 vdc base >ditto >+24VDC base >ditto >-24VDC base > >The bottom panel is the Feature Distribution Assembly >Pins: >+5VDC Feature PS C >ditto >+8.5VDC >+12VDC >-5VDC >-12VDC >+5VDC Feature PS D >ditto > >There! > >This came from the IBM System/34 5340 System Unit Maintenance Manual. >(SY31-0457-5) >------- > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From marvin at rain.org Mon May 25 17:37:50 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Best way to read N* disks?? In-Reply-To: <000301bd8820$304e22c0$6e21a7cd@bothell> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 1998, Richard A. Cini wrote: > What's the best way to read N* DSDD CPM disks on a PeeCee? I downloaded > 22disk from Sydex, but the configuration file that lists the supported CPM > types does not list Northstar. Maybe it's supported in the full version of > 22disk. Anyone know? Since Northstar disks are 10 sector, hard sectored floppies, I don't think you will be able to read them on the PC. When I have to transfer data, I fire up the NS with a comm program, do the same on the PC, and then just do a serial transfer. Good luck! From dastar at wco.com Mon May 25 18:25:01 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey Message-ID: Check out Tandy's version of history from their web page: "1977 TRS-80 Model I Personal Computer introduced. (First mass-marketed personal computer. In contrast to build-it-yourself computers available at the time, the TRS-80 was fully-wired and tested. Sold at a breakthrough price of $599. More than 200,000 TRS-80 computers were sold from 1977 to 1981.)" Ok, let's conveniently forget about the Apple ][. This is the most blatant denial of reality and outright lie I've ever seen a company publicly endorse. "1980 TRS-80 Model 100 Portable Computer introduced. (First computer ever to feature five programs and a telephone modem built-in. Used by journalists throughout the world.)" First I question the year (I know it was later than 1980). This claim is dubious at best. Mostly its broad and irrelevant. It seems they're trying so hard to make this seem like a breakthrough (it was) that they forgot to mention the real reasons why. "1984 Tandy 1000 Personal Computer introduced. (First PC-compatible personal computer. Within one year, the Tandy 1000 became the best-selling PC-compatible computer.)" God, what a load of chicken turds. I think they missed this distinction by 3 years and umpteen other companies. I'd like to kick the guy who wrote all this crap in the nuts. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From yowza at yowza.com Mon May 25 18:45:49 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > "1980 TRS-80 Model 100 Portable Computer introduced. > (First computer ever to feature five programs and a > telephone modem built-in. Used by journalists throughout > the world.)" > > First I question the year (I know it was later than 1980). This claim is > dubious at best. Mostly its broad and irrelevant. It seems they're > trying so hard to make this seem like a breakthrough (it was) that they > forgot to mention the real reasons why. It was intro'd in 1983, I think. It was popular with journalists, but the only way in which it was a breakthrough was that you could buy it at Radio Shack. The Epson HX-20 that preceded it by a couple of years had more features, but a smaller LCD. -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Mon May 25 18:52:26 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Historic Printer available for trade/sell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was cleaning out the loft, and found my old TrendCom 100 printer. I think this was the first printer available for the Apple ][ (the SilentType, or whatever Apple called their first printer, was an OEM'd TrendCom 100). I still have the Apple ][ interface card for it. Make me an offer. -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Mon May 25 19:17:46 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey References: Message-ID: <356A0A2A.AED53BDC@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Check out Tandy's version of history from their web page: > > "1977 TRS-80 Model I Personal Computer introduced. > (First mass-marketed personal computer. In contrast to > build-it-yourself computers available at the time, the TRS-80 > was fully-wired and tested. Sold at a breakthrough price of > $599. More than 200,000 TRS-80 computers were sold from > 1977 to 1981.)" > > Ok, let's conveniently forget about the Apple ][. This is the most > blatant denial of reality and outright lie I've ever seen a company > publicly endorse. Well, I've seen companies publicly endorse far bigger lies. It is true that the Model One shipped to _end users_ in quantity before either the Apple II or the Pet, despite those systems being announced and advertised months earlier -- since the TRS-80 wasn't announced until 5000 of them had actually been built. Beyond that it depends on the definition of "mass-marketed" -- since Tandy had a large retail chain, and Apples and Pets were sold through mostly smaller outlets. > "1980 TRS-80 Model 100 Portable Computer introduced. > (First computer ever to feature five programs and a > telephone modem built-in. Used by journalists throughout > the world.)" > > First I question the year (I know it was later than 1980). This claim is > dubious at best. Mostly its broad and irrelevant. It seems they're > trying so hard to make this seem like a breakthrough (it was) that they > forgot to mention the real reasons why. It was 1983 and I personally addressed several hundred of them to the Los Angeles Times. > > "1984 Tandy 1000 Personal Computer introduced. > (First PC-compatible personal computer. Within one year, > the Tandy 1000 became the best-selling PC-compatible > computer.)" > > God, what a load of chicken turds. I think they missed this distinction > by 3 years and umpteen other companies. I'd like to kick the guy who > wrote all this crap in the nuts. There I can agree, it wasn't even Tandy's first PC compatible, which was the Tandon-built Tandy 1200 piece of crap. It _was_ outselling either IBM or Compaq within a year despite my best efforts. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From marvin at rain.org Mon May 25 19:17:51 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Prices to pay for old computers... References: <005301bd8666$8cd1fc80$6e21a7cd@bothell> Message-ID: <356A0A2F.CF8E2BDD@rain.org> Richard A. Cini wrote: > > On Fri, 22 May 1998 08:46:50 -0700, Kip Crosby wrote > >>I don't know and have never known. Unless I miss my guess, the tech > ref > >>was the same for all 16-64's, so there's probably no telling from > docs > >>unless someone has access to IBM internal memos. > > I thought that I remember reading somewhere that the difference > was the > ROM version. There were two versions, one in early August, 1981, and > one in > late-August (I have a FAQ on this somewhere, I just have to find it). > The > early-August machines are *very* rare from what I have read. Any idea of what the serial numbers were? From donm at cts.com Mon May 25 19:42:02 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Best way to read N* disks?? In-Reply-To: <000301bd8820$304e22c0$6e21a7cd@bothell> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 1998, Richard A. Cini wrote: Rich, The only way that I am aware of to read N* CP/M disks on a PC is if you have two MicroSolutions products. Specifically, their no longer produced MatchPoint Card and an appropriate version of UniForm software. "Appropriate" equals a version that recognizes the card. That combination will read only the CP/M disks, *not* the NSDOS. I have such a setup, if reading your disks is important. - don > What's the best way to read N* DSDD CPM disks on a PeeCee? I downloaded > 22disk from Sydex, but the configuration file that lists the supported CPM > types does not list Northstar. Maybe it's supported in the full version of > 22disk. Anyone know? > > > Rich Cini/WUGNET > (remove nospam_ to use) > ClubWin! Charter Member (6) > MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > Collector of classic computers > <<<========== Reply Separator ==========>>> > > > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From dastar at wco.com Mon May 25 20:01:42 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: More stuff acquired Message-ID: Well, I picked up some more goodies today. An HP Integral PC. I didn't much pay attention to the one Frank M. brought to VCF 1.0 so it was all new to me when I actually started messing with this one. I couldn't get it to do anything useful though. How do I drop out of PAM and into a shell? This one has a 1Meg RAM Carrier and a Serial Interface. An HP75D in a little docking station which has a built-in modem. The computer itself has a Text Formatter ROM module and an 8K RAM module (its neat, it tucks away inside the battery compartment). It also has a magnetic program strip reader. A Yamaha Music Computer. This is one of those MSX jobbies. I got a fairly complete system: computer, printer, 3.5" disk drive, music keyboard, some carthridges & tapes, manuals. It's pretty neat. Here's a hoot from the _MSX BASIC Reference Manual_: "MSX is an open ended system standardized throughout its full range of manufacturers and models--the final step towards the dream of perfect compatibility." I paid $120 for this lot, which was more than I wanted to. I guess I didn't do too bad considering I talked the guy down from $200. Well, come to think of it, with the completeness of the Yamaha, plus the fact that MSX computers are so rare in the states, and the cool factor and scarcity of the Integral PC, $120 isn't bad, but its still more than I wanted to pay :) Oh yeah, somehow my 220v computer came up and the seller ended up lending me a 110/220 step up/down transformer. The only problem with using this on the 220 computer I have is that it has those funky European two-prong outlets on it, and no exposed wiring. Now I'll have to go find some funky Euro two-prong plugs. I appreciate all the responses I received regarding my query. I just haven't had time to go through them yet. But I'm hoping I can leave the original power supply intact inside the computer and not have to do any modifications to it by using this transformer. My only reservation is the fact that it doesn't have a ground plug. I'm sure I can just pass the ground connection on from the computer to my wall outlet since the ground lead is attached directly to the computer case, no? BTW, the computer in question is the California Technology International 1032-A Z80 machine (crica 1979) that I mentioned was among the rarer in my collection. It has a 1-line by 16 character 16-segment LED display, a built-in stringy floppy drive, and 32K RAM. The keyboard is a flat membrane. A very odd beast. I got it shipped from a guy in Denmark, which explains the 220v power supply. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 25 19:53:51 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 25, 98 04:25:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1907 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980526/2ea50be8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 25 19:57:44 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at May 25, 98 06:45:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1379 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980526/5cb1d7c2/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Mon May 25 20:24:33 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: More stuff acquired In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > I paid $120 for this lot, which was more than I wanted to. I guess I > didn't do too bad considering I talked the guy down from $200. Well, come > to think of it, with the completeness of the Yamaha, plus the fact that > MSX computers are so rare in the states, and the cool factor and scarcity > of the Integral PC, $120 isn't bad, but its still more than I wanted to > pay :) That's a good deal, but the Yamaha is probably the only MSX computer that was fairly common in the US. At least I remember seeing it in just about every music shop that also carried the Yamaha DX-7 synth in the mid-80's. (BTW, I still have my Ensoniq Mirage, the first inexpensive digital synth from the same period, and still a cool toy.) (Why does everybody have an IPC but me? I want my IPC!) -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 25 20:21:00 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: More stuff acquired In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 25, 98 06:01:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2214 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980526/0430cd2e/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Mon May 25 20:36:32 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > What the HX20 lacked was a built-in text editor (yes, they were available > _later_). The only programs in the HX20 (I have several) were BASIC and a > machine code monitor. You couldn't turn it on and start typing. > > Owning and using both, I find the M100 much more useful in the real > world. It's got a better keyboard, a much larger display (40*8 as against > 20*4) and more useful built-in programs. The only thing the HX20 has is > the built-in printer (the cassette unit is an option on the HX20). And > that's not that useful. I find the M100 more usable as well, but in terms of "breakthroughs", I can't think of anything the M100 did that the HX-20 didn't do first: form factor, LCD, ROM apps, expandibility, battery power. The HX-20 was pretty pioneering, unless there were a bunch of Japanese-only machines that did the same thing and I simply don't know about them. (The M100, BTW, was made by Kyocera, but I think both Tandy and Bill "so sue me" Gates had input into the design). -- Doug From dastar at wco.com Mon May 25 21:06:16 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > No flames, but the PET and the TRS-80 had one marketting advantage over > the Apple ][ - they were complete systems. Take a TRS-80 or an PET home, > plug it in, and start programming in BASIC. Take an Apple ][ home and > you've either got to get a video monitor or an RF modulator before it > could work. Oh come on. The PET I can agree with, but the TRS-80 still required the purchase of an external monitor, and one could just as easily (if not more easily) have purchased an RF modulator for the Apple. Besides, they're wording this as though the PET and the Apple ][ came to you as a box of chips, boards and components. Even still, the Apple ][ and the PET were both at the 1977 West Coast Computer Faire (April), while the Model 1 was not even announced until August of '77! > I'm not going to start a technical comparison flamefest. It's a waste of > time. I grew up with the TRS-80, and little is going to make me dislike > it. Now, I have a couple of model 1s, a model 3, a model 4, a PET 2001, a > pet 8032SK, a couple of Apple ][s, an Apple //e, etc.... Cool. But I'm just pointing out the blatant misinformation on the web page. Nothing personal. I'm going to go write a letter to the webmaster and let the bastards have it. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon May 25 21:03:24 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: profile controller card needed. Message-ID: <7a58f223.356a22ed@aol.com> if you have one that works, i need it so i can actually use a profile i have. i can either trade pc or apple // cards including apple mouse cards or buy it outright. message me privately, please. david From dastar at wco.com Mon May 25 21:13:37 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > the same thing and I simply don't know about them. (The M100, BTW, was > made by Kyocera, but I think both Tandy and Bill "so sue me" Gates had > input into the design). Well, according to Mr. Bill in _The Road Ahead_ (page 42...no I didn't memorize the stupid book, I just happen to have it sitting here; I haven't even read it yet), he "designed" the M100 with some cat named Kazuhiko Nishi, who was like this Bill Gates of Japan. The idea was pitched to Kyocera's president by Nishi on a plane ride. There's a grain of truth in everything though. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon May 25 20:10:40 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980525201040.774746c2@intellistar.net> At 04:25 PM 5/25/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Check out Tandy's version of history from their web page: > >"1977 TRS-80 Model I Personal Computer introduced. > (First mass-marketed personal computer. In contrast to > build-it-yourself computers available at the time, the TRS-80 > was fully-wired and tested. Sold at a breakthrough price of > $599. More than 200,000 TRS-80 computers were sold from > 1977 to 1981.)" Let's see 200,000 units x $599 = LOTS of dough!!!!!! Boy, I'll bet Ray Holt is still crying in his beer! Joe From gzozman at escape.ca Mon May 25 21:30:09 1998 From: gzozman at escape.ca (Grant Zozman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey References: Message-ID: <356A2931.6F8A0D53@escape.ca> Tony, out of curiosity, what is a PET 8032SK? I have an 8032, but am not familiar with the SK suffix. Tony Duell wrote: > Now, I have a couple of model 1s, a model 3, a model 4, a PET 2001, a > pet 8032SK, a couple of Apple ][s, an Apple //e, etc.... From fmc at reanimators.org Mon May 25 21:37:39 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: More stuff acquired In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Mon, 25 May 1998 18:01:42 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199805260237.TAA00918@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > An HP Integral PC. I didn't much pay attention to the one Frank M. > brought to VCF 1.0 so it was all new to me when I actually started messing > with this one. I couldn't get it to do anything useful though. How do I > drop out of PAM and into a shell? This one has a 1Meg RAM Carrier and a > Serial Interface. Well, it also helps to have a shell. That's why I also brought that 9134 disc drive -- it has the development set loaded on it, which makes it behave a bit more like a Un*x box. Failing that, PAM has a little bit of shell functionality in it. You can use it to look at text files, also you can get a list of files in your current directory by typing "echo *" in its command-line area. (No, PAM doesn't show you everything.) ... Tony mentioned HP-IL and that made me think of what I've been plodding through today: a box full of HP-41 and HP-IL documentation. Shame I didn't grab any of the hardware (other folks did, and left the manuals -- so far as hardware I was concentrating on 9114s that I knew I could use with my Portable Plus and some other little bits), but maybe next time I cross the path of some I'll have a better idea of what to look for. So what have I got? Well, thus far: The HP-IL Interface Specification p/n 82166-90017, Nov 1982 HP 00041-15043 HP-IL Development Module Owner's Manual p/n 00041-90449 Rev B, Oct 1984 1LB3-0003 The HP-IL Integrated Circuit User's Manual p/n 82166-90016 Rev B, Nov 1983 HP 82166C The HP-IL Interface Kit Technical Guide p/n 82166-90020 Rev B, May 1983 HP 82166A HP-IL Converter Technical Manual p/n 82166-90002, Nov 1982 HP 82165A HP-IL/GPIO Interface HP 81266A HP-IL Converter Manual Supplement p/n 82165-90012, Oct 1982 OK, that is what I found in the first binder. Somehow I have a feeling I'm gonna wish I had Tony's clues by the time I get done with this. -Frank McConnell From fmc at reanimators.org Mon May 25 21:48:28 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Mon, 25 May 1998 19:06:16 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199805260248.TAA01245@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail writes: > Oh come on. The PET I can agree with, but the TRS-80 still required the > purchase of an external monitor, and one could just as easily (if not more Yes and no. You could buy a TRS-80 without the monitor, but Radio Shack advertisements featured it as a system including the monitor and cassette recorder, and the featured prices were for complete systems (not like the "monitor not included" you see in computer ads these days). And the pricing was set up so that if you bought the computer and the monitor you got the cassette recorder and manual "included free". Source: "Radio Shack TRS-80 Microcomputer System Products" catalog "New for 1978", and I'm thinkin' I got it in early 1978, certainly before I saw a Level II BASIC system -Frank McConnell From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon May 25 21:59:17 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: More stuff acquired Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980525195433.33275178@ricochet.net> >(Why does everybody have an IPC but me? I want my IPC!) Not everyone... I'm still looking for mine. 8^( I swear, if Sam keeps posting all these neat finds, one of these days I'm gonna figure out where his garage is and pay him a visit (at about 3am)... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon May 25 22:00:00 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:07 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION In-Reply-To: <815D4FDDF9F6D011A5ED0000F804A87594C0DB@emss04m04.cs.lmco.com> Message-ID: Stephen, wanted to know if you were still interested in the IMSAI CPU and IMSAI documentation that I have. I have the IMSAI PCS 80/10 Microcomputer System user manual dated 1976 in EXCELLENT condition. The binding has one crease and the corners of the binding are slightly worn. I also have some loose sheets of documentation for the parallel IO board they sold. I'll also send anything else that I have that's relevant. Let's call the total $105 to cover shipping, which I can't imagine would run over $5. You understand, of course, that the cpu card is just the cpu card...not the cpu cabinet, motherboard etc. I've been told by other folks making offers that the offer of $100 is reasonable but you were the first to make an offer on it. Considering the rarity of this item, compared to some of the other items I'm selling, I'd have to get a cashiers check...upon receipt of which I would ship immediately or a personal check, in which case I would not ship the items until the check had cleared. I'm sure you understand. The manual even has the original warranty card still in the back. Let me know if you're still interested. Anthony Clifton 407 E. Porter Avenue Des Moines, Iowa 50315 On Mon, 11 May 1998, Gabaly, Stephen J wrote: > I offer $100 for the IMSAI CPU card and IMSAI documentation. > > steve > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wirehead Prime [SMTP:wirehead@retrocomputing.com] > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 1998 6:49 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION > > > Over the next several weeks I will be liquidating my collection of > antique computers. I won't go into the reasons why except to say > that > the reasons for doing so are not bad. In other words, I'm not being > > forced to do it by bad circumstances. I'll leave it at this: I > need the > space in my home to expand a business venture that has brought me a > great > deal of genuine happiness over the last few months. > > I will be liquidating the following: > > TRS-80 Model III with Software > > Northstar Horizon with spare CPU card and a spare grungy chassis > > 2 Commodore 128 computers and 1 1571 disk drive and some > miscellaneous > Commodore peripherals > > 2 Commodore 64 computers with no PSs in unknown condition > > Ohio Scientific Challenger in working condition with keyboard and > monitor > > Computer Systems Associations Micro 68000 Development System > > TEI 22 slot S100 backplane > > 2 small boxes of S100 cards including an IMSAI cpu board, several > static > ram cards, a Disk Jockey II disk controller and several others > > An entire shelf of S100 and CPM documentation including manuals for > the > IMSAI (original) and the Altair (copies) > > Epson QX-10 working with all software including CP/M 2.2, no printer > > Xerox 820 system, with spare motherboards, 2 8" drives, monitors and > > spare keyboards > > PDP-11/34 with RK05f and RK05j > > and last but certainly NOT least > > 3 PDP-8i systems, one cpu only, one with a high speed paper tape > reader > punch and one with a DECtape drive, lots of spare parts, full > documentation including schematic print sets, DEC OS/8 on paper tape > and > several boxes of home-grown software on paper tape...includes ASR-33 > > Teletype in good condition - all condition unknown, not recommended > for > the beginning retrocomputerist > > GNT Paper tape reader/punch that connects to RS-232 with manual and > a > roll of black paper tape > > Now for what I want out of this stuff... > > Of course, cash is acceptable. I'll also accept trades for > pre-press > equipment like Linotype-Hell imagesetting equipment, RIPs and/or > media > developers/processors, small sheet-fed presses, black and white > flatbed > scanners suitable for a Macintosh, Quark Xpress 3.x up for the Mac, > binding equipment like sheet collators or edge staplers, CD-ROM > drive > (any speed) for Macintosh, Macintosh font collections, digital > duplicators, photocopiers and/or laser printers etc. If you think > it's > useful for preparing or printing a newsletter/magazine, I may be > interested in it. > > Bet you can't guess what kind of business I'm involved in... =-) > > In some cases, I'll donate the equipment to a good home if I think > it's > warranted. The only thing I can't donate is the PDP-8s as I have a > significant investment in them and need to get $250-$300 each from > them > on average to recover my retrieval costs. > > Buyer/trader must either pay shipping costs from Des Moines, Iowa to > your > location or come to Des Moines to pick the items up. The PDPs will > all > have to be picked up as each is in a 6' tall rack about 24 inches > wide > and deep. > > All bids and trade offers should be made via private email as this > is the > only public posting I'll make. I'm not going to make up any complex > > rules about what bid I'll select or deadlines etc. But if I say you > got > it for a specific price/trade and a higher one comes in, well that's > just > too bad for me. So don't expect an IMMEDIATE answer on your bid. > > If you need more information/specifics on an item, send me private > email > and I'll give you all the info I can to help you make a decision. > > Let the frenzy begin!!! =-) > > Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > > PS: I'll be discontinuing the website at www.retrocomputing.com in > a > month or so I can focus all my resources on the new venture. > From dastar at wco.com Mon May 25 23:12:21 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: More stuff acquired In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980525195433.33275178@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > >(Why does everybody have an IPC but me? I want my IPC!) > > Not everyone... I'm still looking for mine. 8^( I swear, if Sam keeps > posting all these neat finds, one of these days I'm gonna figure out where > his garage is and pay him a visit (at about 3am)... 8^) Uh oh. I guess I'd better start letting my two Rottweilers, Ike and Tina, sleep in the garage from now on ;) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From dastar at wco.com Mon May 25 23:14:51 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > Stephen, wanted to know if you were still interested in the IMSAI CPU and > IMSAI documentation that I have. I have the IMSAI PCS 80/10 > Microcomputer System user manual dated 1976 in EXCELLENT condition. The > binding has one crease and the corners of the binding are slightly worn. > I also have some loose sheets of documentation for the parallel IO board > they sold. I'll also send anything else that I have that's relevant. > Let's call the total $105 to cover shipping, which I can't imagine would > run over $5. You understand, of course, that the cpu card is just the > cpu card...not the cpu cabinet, motherboard etc. I've been told by other > folks making offers that the offer of $100 is reasonable but you were the > first to make an offer on it. $105 for an IMSAI CPU board and some random documentation!? Talk about absurd. What is this doing in public space? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon May 25 23:19:29 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: 11/34a Thanx.. Message-ID: Well, muchas gracias to Mr. Duell; I have one of my 11s out of deep sleep and talking to it's console. For any who have followed this sequence.. the problems resolved to a) bad BA11 (PSUs good, something else is wrong) b) the old grant continuity confusion, and finally c) a bad RS232 cable I put in the line to the console VT100 to extend it a bit. So now, I have one 11/34 computer running, with an RX02 (but no bootable media for it) and two RK05s, neither of which work at the moment.... but that's the next hurdle. Actually, I have configured a single RK as unit 0 and terminated it. The *problem* is something in the control logic preventing the unit from spinning up the disc and coming into ready. So I'm kneeling on the floor under the drive with a voltmeter and a scope, trying to find where the chain is broken. At least I have extender cards.... Again, many many thanks to all of you who have taken the time to offer advice... it was correct and successful. More later as the situation progresses.. Cheers John From joltdesigner at usa.net Mon May 25 20:16:11 1998 From: joltdesigner at usa.net (Ray Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980525201040.774746c2@intellistar.net> References: Message-ID: <199805260449.XAA24242@dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com> At 08:10 PM 5/25/98 +0000, you wrote: >At 04:25 PM 5/25/98 -0700, you wrote: >> >>Check out Tandy's version of history from their web page: >> >>"1977 TRS-80 Model I Personal Computer introduced. >> (First mass-marketed personal computer. In contrast to >> build-it-yourself computers available at the time, the TRS-80 >> was fully-wired and tested. Sold at a breakthrough price of >> $599. More than 200,000 TRS-80 computers were sold from >> 1977 to 1981.)" > > > Let's see 200,000 units x $599 = LOTS of dough!!!!!! Boy, I'll bet Ray >Holt is still crying in his beer! > > Joe Joe, Actually, I wasn't crying at all until I saw in "The Road Ahead" where the marketing manager took complete credit for the entire concept and design. Too bad the design was a prototype and not fully debugged. Guess he got what he deserved. Besides we were only promised the first 2000 of production. Ray Holt > From marvin at rain.org Mon May 25 23:49:55 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 25 May 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > > > cpu card...not the cpu cabinet, motherboard etc. I've been told by other > > folks making offers that the offer of $100 is reasonable but you were the > > first to make an offer on it. > > $105 for an IMSAI CPU board and some random documentation!? Talk about > absurd. Sam, you seem to be acquiring stuff (as most of us are) from people who don't really have a clue what it might be worth. I've seen people buy IMSAI CPU boards for $25 with zero documentation, and be pleased as punch at what they got. If I didn't already have several sets of IMSAI documentation, I would have considered buying that set as it sounds like it was complete and in good shape. From gram at cnct.com Tue May 26 00:23:21 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: 11/34a Thanx.. References: Message-ID: <356A51C9.73C396C5@cnct.com> John Lawson wrote: > Actually, I have configured a single RK as unit 0 and terminated > it. The *problem* is something in the control logic preventing the > unit from spinning up the disc and coming into ready. So I'm > kneeling on the floor under the drive with a voltmeter and a scope, > trying to find where the chain is broken. At least I have extender > cards.... Well, you're supposed to be kneeling on the floor in front of the console with a rooster and a knife, but a voltmeter and a scope are a good alternative. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From dastar at wco.com Tue May 26 00:22:13 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION In-Reply-To: <000101bd7dfb$4eef2280$fde290d1@homepc.pdq.net> Message-ID: Hi Mr. Teague. I read your message below and hope I can help. I may be able to ship you down a complete working 386 system with a hard drive. I may also be able to hook you up with more donations. In return I would hope that you can provide me with a receipt showing I made this donation that can be used for a tax deduction. Please let me know if this is feasible and we'll talk some more. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] On Tue, 12 May 1998, snoball wrote: > Hi, I am a teacher here at the local elementary school in Humble, TX. To be > honest, the computer department here at the school is rather pathetic, two > Apple //e's and an XT that was donated that I can't get to work. To be > frank, these kids are going into a world where they are illiterate in the > basic workings of a computer. I hate to sound desperate, but I have just > exausted all leads I know to take on the matter. I saw your ad and thought > that there could still be a chance. I am a little familiar with computer > collectiong myself, I have none but have read all the antique computer > museum site in order to more educate myself on what I am loking for. From > what I understand, the TRS-80 Model III has BASIC language built in???? Any > difference, if were to ovtain this computer, I would search vigorously for > eduaction software, I'm sure I could find this somewhere Like in an old > Radio Shack warehouse or something. And if there is BASIC on it, I could > use to perhaps teach a small summer class on computer programming and > incorporate the to Apple //e's. Unfortunatly, I am a little short on funds > at the moment (this moment has lasted about all my life) and the school > district will no longer return my calls. If the TRS-80 Model III or any > other computer is still available, I would be more than happy to pay the > shipping costs to ZIP code 77346. I hope you could find it in your heart to > lend a lerning tool to a group of children from first grade to 5th. If not, > a simple reply telling that you cannot donate would be sufficient. However, > if you can, I would like to work out the specifics such as shipping > addresses and prices or if there is something else that I can do for you. > Thank you for reading this message, I hope that I have not come accross to > strong. Thank you. > -Justin Teague From dastar at wco.com Tue May 26 01:12:29 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Hi Mr. Teague. <...> Damn it. Why do I keep doing this? From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue May 26 01:12:06 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey Message-ID: <000601bd886d$4e4fb020$616fbcc1@hotze> >Joe, > >Actually, I wasn't crying at all until I saw in "The Road Ahead" where the >marketing manager took complete credit for the entire concept and design. >Too bad the design was a prototype and not fully debugged. Guess he got >what he deserved. Besides we were only promised the first 2000 of production. > >Ray Holt Actually, remember that they DIDN'T MAKE $599 per unit, because the cost of production was probably at least $250-350. Then they didn't directly sell them to end users, but to resellers, for about a $100 max profit... it adds up. Unless you bought it directly from RS, where I guess you made their lying pockets bigger. Actually, if I were in your posistion, I'd be mad that I didn't put more bugs in!!! Just be glad that you eventually got some decent jobs, and credit for your work. I'm sure that bigger things have happened in world history, but I can't name any at the moment. Don't worry, I think that all of us give you credit for your work. (Mostly to Sam Ismail): Is there going to be a VCF Journal or something that we can buy? Unfortuanately, I'll be in Guyana in school at the time in question... kinda hard to go 4,000 away from class. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From yowza at yowza.com Tue May 26 01:57:38 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: HP Portable Plus In-Reply-To: <000601bd886d$4e4fb020$616fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: OK, I'm staring at my recently acquired HP Portable Plus with it's oddball power plug. The FAQ tells me it wants 6V, but the only thing I have that fits is an 8V supply from a 9114, which I'm sure will do the trick, but I don't see two things: a polarity key and a power switch. Does the Plus care about polarity? If not, how do I turn it on? -- Doug From dastar at wco.com Tue May 26 02:10:12 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: <000601bd886d$4e4fb020$616fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 May 1998, Hotze wrote: > Don't worry, I think that all of us give you credit for your work. Ray will certainly have his day soon. > (Mostly to Sam Ismail): Is there going to be a VCF Journal or something > that we can buy? Unfortuanately, I'll be in Guyana in school at the time in > question... kinda hard to go 4,000 away from class. Yes. I will definitely be producing a show album for VCF2, including the talks on cassette. I'm still working on the VCF 1.0 "Lecture Series" (should have had it done by now but work is sucking up all my time). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue May 26 02:17:07 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: 11/34a Thanx.. In-Reply-To: <356A51C9.73C396C5@cnct.com> References: Message-ID: <199805260717.RAA02826@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 01:23 AM 26-05-98 -0400, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: >Well, you're supposed to be kneeling on the floor in front of the >console with a rooster and a knife, but a voltmeter and a scope are >a good alternative. No, roosters and knives only work for Q-Bus systems - you need virgin sacrifice for those Unibus versions :-) To add some real content :-) I used to maintain a number of 78x and 8600 systems. I had no formal qualifications in VAX maintenance, just on the job training! Most embarrassing early moment was inserting the small grant continuity cards in every free slot and being very confused when the whole thing didn't work. Hint - although the cards are keyed, sufficient force will insert them backwards. This was only discovered when comparing with the full sized version :-( Of course, there was the day that the BA-11 power supply made lots of pretty white smoke and we don't want to talk about the three phase double adaptor :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue May 26 02:48:24 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey Message-ID: <000601bd887a$acf3fa20$6f67bcc1@hotze> >Ray will certainly have his day soon. Everyone has their 15 minutes of glory. His will be a lot longer than 15 minutes. >> (Mostly to Sam Ismail): Is there going to be a VCF Journal or something >> that we can buy? Unfortuanately, I'll be in Guyana in school at the time in >> question... kinda hard to go 4,000 away from class. > >Yes. I will definitely be producing a show album for VCF2, including the >talks on cassette. I'm still working on the VCF 1.0 "Lecture Series" >(should have had it done by now but work is sucking up all my time). Thanks. I'll have to see how that turns out. >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Ever onward. > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 05/11/98] > Tim D. Hotze From desieh at southcom.com.au Tue May 26 03:44:29 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old Message-ID: <005601bd8882$7fee6da0$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 26 May 1998 3:16 Subject: Re: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old >At 01:46 PM 5/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >>> Your hopes are dashed. The only pricey IBM PCs are the ones that had 16K >>> installed at the factory and weren't upgraded. The 64K ones are relatively >> >>That's absurd (bordering on perverse) -- what could you DO with a machine >>like that? (Yes, run BASIC and use cassettes... I know.) > >In my day, sonny, 16K was plenty of room. Back then, we knew how to >program. It was an art. Not like the kids today, with their megabytes and >Gooeys and write-once-read-many, magneto-optical, doohickies... (whups, >gotta go, time for maaaatttlooock!) > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > I have one question , well I actually have two...... though, what software came on cassetes? and what is the most common fault in the IBM full height floppy drives that makes them die??? anyone?? From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Tue May 26 05:30:38 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: 11/34a Thanx.. In-Reply-To: <199805260717.RAA02826@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> from "Huw Davies" at May 26, 98 05:17:07 pm Message-ID: <199805261030.GAA24853@shell.monmouth.com> > > At 01:23 AM 26-05-98 -0400, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > >Well, you're supposed to be kneeling on the floor in front of the > >console with a rooster and a knife, but a voltmeter and a scope are > >a good alternative. > > No, roosters and knives only work for Q-Bus systems - you need virgin > sacrifice for those Unibus versions :-) Which is why I had so much fun in DEC Field Service and why there's no one left in the DDC who can fix PDP11's and Vaxes. There's no one in Colorado Springs left to sacrifice. > > To add some real content :-) I used to maintain a number of 78x and 8600 > > Hint - although the cards are keyed, sufficient force will insert them > backwards. This was only discovered when comparing with the full sized > version :-( Actually, the original small grant cards aren't keyed. I knew one person at DEC who inserted them all backwards. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Tue May 26 06:08:07 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for oldcomputers...) Message-ID: >>>I hope that "16K" means "16/64K model" as opposed to "actually equipped >>>with >>>16K of memory." >> >>Your hopes are dashed. The only pricey IBM PCs are the ones that had 16K >>installed at the factory and weren't upgraded. So they only had 16K on board, and no empty sockets for expansion to 64K? Or do you mean that they just came with 16K but you could add the rest of the chips yourself? Interestingly enough I seem to remember that there was an unofficial mod that you could make easily to the 256K system boards to take them out to 512K... I don't know if that applied to all the XT 256K boards or not... cheers >Jules From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 26 07:08:31 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: <000601bd886d$4e4fb020$616fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980526070831.489f43b6@intellistar.net> At 09:12 AM 5/26/98 +0300, you wrote: > > > >Actually, remember that they DIDN'T MAKE $599 per unit, because the cost of > I KNOW THAT! But even at $5 royality per unit the total would have been $1 million dollars! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 26 07:17:21 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: HP Portable Plus In-Reply-To: References: <000601bd886d$4e4fb020$616fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980526071721.489ff946@intellistar.net> Doug, The FAQ are wrong! It's 8 VAC the same as the 9114. There's no polarity key since it's AC. Turn the PP on by pressing any key (except shift, control or extended char) for at least 1/4 second. Turn it off by pressing the F8 key when OFF is shown on the key labels for that key. If OFF isn't shown, try pressing the USER or MENU keys until OFF is shown. The half-moon looking key controls the screeen contrast. Joe At 01:57 AM 5/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >OK, I'm staring at my recently acquired HP Portable Plus with it's oddball >power plug. The FAQ tells me it wants 6V, but the only thing I have that >fits is an 8V supply from a 9114, which I'm sure will do the trick, but I >don't see two things: a polarity key and a power switch. Does the Plus >care about polarity? If not, how do I turn it on? > >-- Doug > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 26 07:21:35 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: <005601bd8882$7fee6da0$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980526072135.449f27c6@intellistar.net> At 06:44 PM 5/26/98 +1000, you wrote: > > >I have one question , well I actually have two...... >though, what software came on cassetes? >and what is the most common fault in the IBM full height floppy drives that >makes them die??? > I dunno about the FH drives. I've never seen one die! They seem to last forever! Joe From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Tue May 26 07:37:38 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old Message-ID: <004201bd88a3$11beb6c0$f73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Desie Hay >I have one question , well I actually have two...... >though, what software came on cassetes? >and what is the most common fault in the IBM full height floppy drives that >makes them die??? > >anyone?? > 1. I don't think any software would have come on cassette as it was meant to be used with the "Cassette Basic" in ROM. 2. I've noticed the little flat belt drives on the full height drives go slippery often and stops them working. Hans From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Tue May 26 07:39:44 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: More stuff acquired Message-ID: <004901bd88a3$5cfa5b80$f73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail >I paid $120 for this lot, which was more than I wanted to. I guess I >didn't do too bad considering I talked the guy down from $200. Well, come >to think of it, with the completeness of the Yamaha, plus the fact that >MSX computers are so rare in the states, and the cool factor and scarcity >of the Integral PC, $120 isn't bad, but its still more than I wanted to >pay :) > I've been haggling with a guy for an Integral PC for a while. He wants $50. Maybe I should give in. From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Tue May 26 07:43:47 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: HP Portable Plus Message-ID: <006801bd88a3$edcfb060$f73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza >OK, I'm staring at my recently acquired HP Portable Plus with it's oddball >power plug. The FAQ tells me it wants 6V, but the only thing I have that >fits is an 8V supply from a 9114, which I'm sure will do the trick, but I >don't see two things: a polarity key and a power switch. Does the Plus >care about polarity? If not, how do I turn it on? What is the Portable Plus? Is it related to the HP110 ? Hans From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue May 26 07:48:45 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: 11/34a Thanx.. In-Reply-To: <199805261030.GAA24853@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <13358736043.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Grant cards backwards] I've done that. Lotsa fun to find which one, since there's no smoke or bangs or indications of which one you botched.... (In my case, ALL of them, in a double-cabinet 11/44) ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue May 26 07:50:49 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980526072135.449f27c6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <13358736419.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [FH 5 1/4" drives never die...] Not so. We had those in the XTs upstairs last year, and the animals would shove all sorts of fun things (Whole pencils, 3 1/2" disks, papers, etc.) inside to destroy them. ------- From dastar at wco.com Tue May 26 07:51:55 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: <005601bd8882$7fee6da0$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 May 1998, Desie Hay wrote: > I have one question , well I actually have two...... > though, what software came on cassetes? > and what is the most common fault in the IBM full height floppy drives that > makes them die??? Well, I have a couple "Diagostics" cassettes that seem to have come with the original computer, but I don't actually know if it has programs on it or is just an audio instructional of diagnosing the computer. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 26 07:49:59 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: More stuff acquired In-Reply-To: <004901bd88a3$5cfa5b80$f73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980526074959.489ffce8@intellistar.net> At 10:39 PM 5/26/98 +1000, you wrote: > > >I've been haggling with a guy for an Integral PC for a while. He wants $50. >Maybe I should give in. > > You probably should. That's a good price for the IPC alone. It's a bargain if it includes the SE or Technical BASIC ROMs or documentation. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 26 08:01:38 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: HP Portable Plus In-Reply-To: <006801bd88a3$edcfb060$f73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980526080138.449f730c@intellistar.net> At 10:43 PM 5/26/98 +1000, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Doug Yowza > > >>OK, I'm staring at my recently acquired HP Portable Plus with it's oddball >>power plug. The FAQ tells me it wants 6V, but the only thing I have that >>fits is an 8V supply from a 9114, which I'm sure will do the trick, but I >>don't see two things: a polarity key and a power switch. Does the Plus >>care about polarity? If not, how do I turn it on? > > >What is the Portable Plus? Is it related to the HP110 ? > >Hans > > The 110 is the HP Portable. The Portable Plus is a newer version. I'm not sure what the differences are except for the color. Joe From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue May 26 08:45:14 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Mountain Computers AD/DA Card Message-ID: <001101bd88ac$a4919a40$1f6fbcc1@hotze> Hi. I've got one of these in my Apple ][. Anyone got any info??? Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From fmc at reanimators.org Tue May 26 09:10:07 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: HP Portable Plus In-Reply-To: Doug Yowza's message of Tue, 26 May 1998 01:57:38 -0500 (CDT) References: Message-ID: <199805261410.HAA22688@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Doug Yowza wrote: > OK, I'm staring at my recently acquired HP Portable Plus with it's oddball > power plug. The FAQ tells me it wants 6V, but the only thing I have that > fits is an 8V supply from a 9114, which I'm sure will do the trick, but I > don't see two things: a polarity key and a power switch. Does the Plus > care about polarity? If not, how do I turn it on? If you took a close look at your 9114 supply you might find that its output is 8V*AC*. No polarity to worry about. First, try to turn it on with the return key. Just press it once, wait, try again (sometimes mine don't notice on the first press). If all is well that will get you to a PAM screen, and from there you can turn it off again with f8. If you open the battery door (center rear) you will find a jumper and a tiny switch. The switch is full-reset-zap-everything. The jumper is what connects the battery to the rest of the system, and may be set incorrectly if the unit is never-used or someone clueful stored it with the knowledge that it wouldn't be used for a while. Of course I can't remember which way is "correct" and my Pluses are being difficult w/r/t door removal this morning. Ah, there we go. The jumper fits over a three-pin header, and the pin to the right (assuming you're facing the back, so the one on the Ctrl-key side of the Plus) should be exposed for normal operation (the other two should be connected with the jumper). Shift-Stop is the two-fingered "reboot" salute. It's safer than the switch in back. Note the "AAAAAA" or "BBBBBB" line that it spits out during this exercise, that tells you what version of the base ROMs are installed. ... Hans Olminkhof asks what the Portable Plus is. Yes, it's the successor to the 110 aka Portable. More RAM, bigger screen, faster modem (1200 vs. 300 bps), "drawers" for RAM and ROM so more customizability -- users could buy different sizes of RAM drawers and buy additional applications in ROMs to install in the ROM drawer, rather than having to load up precious RAM. Also I think there was no built-in Terminal application, instead HP sold a ROM'd version of WRQ's Reflection 1. -Frank McConnell From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Tue May 26 09:28:31 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980526092831.0081bd50@pop3.webzone.net> At 04:25 PM 5/25/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Check out Tandy's version of history from their web page: >[snip] >"1984 Tandy 1000 Personal Computer introduced. > (First PC-compatible personal computer. Within one year, > the Tandy 1000 became the best-selling PC-compatible > computer.)" > >God, what a load of chicken turds. I think they missed this distinction >by 3 years and umpteen other companies. I'd like to kick the guy who >wrote all this crap in the nuts. Uh, make that PCjr-compatible. Talk about a "creative" memory. I'd like some of what this guy's been smokin' for next Saturday night, puh-lease! > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Ever onward. > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 05/11/98] > > -- David Wollmann dwollmann@ibmhelp.com From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 26 09:53:54 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey Message-ID: <199805261453.AA08660@world.std.com> (mostly for Mr. Shoppa, but others may have insight) The old RCA tape I had mentioned is in fact larger that 1/2". It looks a bit like 3/4". It is not video tape, as the reel says "RCA Electronic Data Processing 501". A small paper label also has "BPROG", and a date from 1964. God only knows what is on this tape, and if it could still be read! William Donzelli william@ans.net From marvin at rain.org Tue May 26 10:35:08 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old References: <005601bd8882$7fee6da0$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> Message-ID: <356AE12C.7C112B45@rain.org> Desie Hay wrote: > > I have one question , well I actually have two...... > though, what software came on cassetes? > and what is the most common fault in the IBM full height floppy drives > that > makes them die??? Speaking only from my experience, alignment seems to be a very common reason for all drives to "fail". From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue May 26 10:37:35 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Old tape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13358766778.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Retrieving data from old tape] Old tapes can be neat. I found a bizarre tape from IBM and had our TV guy here translate it to VHS for me. It was sales/technical information about System/36. ------- From marvin at rain.org Tue May 26 10:38:26 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for oldcomputers...) References: Message-ID: <356AE1F2.5ED320AB@rain.org> Julian Richardson wrote: > So they only had 16K on board, and no empty sockets for expansion to > 64K? Or do you mean that they just came with 16K but you could add the > rest of the chips yourself? > They came with 16K of soldered in RAM with 3 more banks to add another whole 48K of RAM! For a while, I was wondering why there were 3rd party RAM cards with room for 500K+. After seeing the original 16K board, the answer became obvious :). From donm at cts.com Tue May 26 13:28:16 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: <005601bd8882$7fee6da0$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 May 1998, Desie Hay wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Uncle Roger > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Tuesday, 26 May 1998 3:16 > Subject: Re: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old > > > >At 01:46 PM 5/22/98 -0700, you wrote: > >>> Your hopes are dashed. The only pricey IBM PCs are the ones that had > 16K > >>> installed at the factory and weren't upgraded. The 64K ones are > relatively > >> > >>That's absurd (bordering on perverse) -- what could you DO with a machine > >>like that? (Yes, run BASIC and use cassettes... I know.) > > > >In my day, sonny, 16K was plenty of room. Back then, we knew how to > >program. It was an art. Not like the kids today, with their megabytes and > >Gooeys and write-once-read-many, magneto-optical, doohickies... (whups, > >gotta go, time for maaaatttlooock!) > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > > > I have one question , well I actually have two...... > though, what software came on cassetes? > and what is the most common fault in the IBM full height floppy drives that > makes them die??? > > anyone?? Well, for one item, I am looking at a cassette from the IBM Personal Computer Reference Library that is labled DIAGNOSTICS and is p/n #6081562. It is version 1.02 and (C) 1981, 1982. - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From donm at cts.com Tue May 26 13:34:30 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 26 May 1998, Desie Hay wrote: > > > I have one question , well I actually have two...... > > though, what software came on cassetes? > > and what is the most common fault in the IBM full height floppy drives that > > makes them die??? > > Well, I have a couple "Diagostics" cassettes that seem to have come with > the original computer, but I don't actually know if it has programs on it > or is just an audio instructional of diagnosing the computer. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ever onward. > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 05/11/98] > If you put it in a cassette player you will know, Sam. The screechy warble will drive you up a wall! - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue May 26 13:38:16 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Apple modification Message-ID: <19980526183816.19971.qmail@hotmail.com> I have a little dilemma here. For one thing, I have an Apple //c. I am being offered an Apple ][+ (I think) for free that has a Digital Research z-80 card in it,with manual, as well as an external keyboard kludge. There is also software. However, there is an issue with space. Is there any way to modify the Apple //c to make it take expansion cards? Should I just take the ][+? Also, how much should I pay for a Laser 128? It's being offered for $25 at a thrift shop w/o PSU. Lastly, does anyone have a Z-80 card for the //c? They were made by Applied Engineering and were inserted into the processor socket. I have them in an old AE catalog. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue May 26 10:58:34 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Nasty little Sanyo (was Re:Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers)) References: <19980525222357.25067.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <356AE6AA.BE5F4F2F@bbtel.com> Max Eskin wrote: > I have some of those in an "Advanced Computer Products" catalog, > 1985. $1299. Not much I can say about them. They look kinda like > stereo systems and "Sanyo" means "crap" in russian. Now we know the origin of the company name and that it really means what the company put out.... -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue May 26 14:27:11 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? Message-ID: I just acquired an Apple IIgs that is in an Apple IIe style case! It's not a conversion or anything, it's original from Apple. It looks exactly like a IIe except for the model emblem and the back panel. Perhaps it's something Apple did for the educational market, to make it look like the other machines they were used to, and incorporating a built-in keyboard which would be less fragile than the multi-piece regular IIgs series. Anybody ever heard of these? Kai From rax at warbaby.com Tue May 26 15:40:14 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980525093632.6e4fd76e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: Uncle Roger wrote: >In my day, sonny, 16K was plenty of room. Back then, we knew how to >program. It was an art. Not like the kids today, with their megabytes and >Gooeys and write-once-read-many, magneto-optical, doohickies... (whups, >gotta go, time for maaaatttlooock!) > Back in my day, we had to carve our own IC's out of wood. R. -- Robert Arnold Managing Editor The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Creator and Eminence Grise Warbaby: The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. muahahahahaaaaa http://www.warbaby.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue May 26 12:39:52 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: I need a VAX 785 bootdisk image... Anyone got one? Message-ID: <13358789039.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I need a diskimage for a VAX 785. Doesn't matter (yet) what boots are on it. If you have one, let me know, but DON'T mail it to the toad.xkl.com address, I'll give you another to mail to. (MM doesn't like attachments, and I doubt my terminal like binary files) ------- From engine at chac.org Tue May 26 15:39:41 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980526133941.00f5c170@pop.batnet.com> At 12:27 5/26/98 -0700, KaiKal wrote: >I just acquired an Apple IIgs that is in an Apple IIe style case! >It's not a conversion or anything, it's original from Apple. It looks >exactly like a IIe except for the model emblem and the back panel. What you have there, my friend, is the Apple IIGS UPGRADE, and a lucky man you are. It _is_ a conversion; some intrepid owner made it out of a //e and the Upgrade Kit, which was a new logic board and the case pieces. I've got one, but only one. If you fire it up, I'd be interested to know what revision your ROMs are. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From engine at chac.org Tue May 26 17:00:36 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.16.19980525093632.6e4fd76e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980526150036.00f85970@pop.batnet.com> At 12:40 5/26/98 -0800, rax wrote: >Back in my day, we had to carve our own IC's out of wood. So bits are called that because they were drilled? __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From yowza at yowza.com Tue May 26 17:12:31 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: HP Portable Plus In-Reply-To: <199805261410.HAA22688@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 26 May 1998, Frank McConnell wrote: > If you open the battery door (center rear) you will find a jumper and > a tiny switch. The switch is full-reset-zap-everything. The jumper > is what connects the battery to the rest of the system, and may be set > incorrectly if the unit is never-used or someone clueful stored it > with the knowledge that it wouldn't be used for a while. Of course I > can't remember which way is "correct" and my Pluses are being > difficult w/r/t door removal this morning. > > Ah, there we go. The jumper fits over a three-pin header, and the pin > to the right (assuming you're facing the back, so the one on the > Ctrl-key side of the Plus) should be exposed for normal operation (the > other two should be connected with the jumper). Thanks, changing the jumper and hitting reset did the trick. I needed to reformat the RAM disk after the reset, but I have a couple of "advanced mail" apps in ROM that seem to expect files to be present on the RAM disk. Is there some special way to setup the ROM apps, or do I manually create directories and files as I get errors? -- Doug From fmc at reanimators.org Tue May 26 17:45:45 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: HP Portable Plus In-Reply-To: Doug Yowza's message of Tue, 26 May 1998 17:12:31 -0500 (CDT) References: Message-ID: <199805262245.PAA08023@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Doug Yowza writes: > Thanks, changing the jumper and hitting reset did the trick. I needed to > reformat the RAM disk after the reset, but I have a couple of "advanced > mail" apps in ROM that seem to expect files to be present on the RAM disk. > Is there some special way to setup the ROM apps, or do I manually create > directories and files as I get errors? That would be AdvanceMail. I vaguely remember that you do have to create something for it to make it not complain. Not that it's real useful -- I think you need to have something for it to connect to, and while I know there was some way to make it talk to HPDeskManager on the HP3000s I don't think it ever got updated to talk anything like POP3 or QWK packets or what have you. Nevertheless there seem to be a lot of Portable Pluses out there with the AdvanceMail software, and I can only guess that is because HP was using HPDeskManager for its internal e-mail network until two or three? years ago and found it useful to equip a lot of its internal-use Pluses with AdvanceMail. -Frank McConnell From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 26 13:37:05 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: More stuff acquired In-Reply-To: <199805260237.TAA00918@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at May 25, 98 07:37:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1963 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980526/6e003307/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 26 13:30:57 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: <356A2931.6F8A0D53@escape.ca> from "Grant Zozman" at May 25, 98 09:30:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 671 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980526/edf7d5be/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 26 14:53:24 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: 11/34a Thanx.. In-Reply-To: <199805261030.GAA24853@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at May 26, 98 06:30:38 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1081 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980526/abb7d0cc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 26 14:55:55 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for oldcomputers...) In-Reply-To: from "Julian Richardson" at May 26, 98 12:08:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 947 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980526/b6515c52/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 26 14:58:01 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:08 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 26, 98 05:51:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 485 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980526/f455d329/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 26 15:03:42 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: <356AE12C.7C112B45@rain.org> from "Marvin" at May 26, 98 08:35:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 782 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980526/af45563f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 26 13:27:48 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 25, 98 07:06:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1433 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980526/dd4acccf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 26 13:53:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: 11/34a Thanx.. In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at May 25, 98 09:19:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2156 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980526/9af9e309/attachment.ksh From dcoward at pressstart.com Tue May 26 19:17:40 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Transformers Message-ID: <19980526171740.00c63025.in@mail.pressstart.com> >> reservation is the fact that it doesn't have a ground plug. I'm sure I >> can just pass the ground connection on from the computer to my wall outlet >> since the ground lead is attached directly to the computer case, no? >> Tony Duell said: >Exactly. And when you do that, also ground the frame/core of the >transformer, just in case the insulation ever breaks down. Isn't this step-up transformer also acting as an isolation transformer, isolating the secondary from ground? I thought that meant that you didn't not need a ground because secondary of the transformer has no relationship to ground. I'd like to find out because I use one with my Mitsubishi MoveMaster robot. ========================================= Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum ========================================= From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 26 19:03:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Transformers In-Reply-To: <19980526171740.00c63025.in@mail.pressstart.com> from "Doug Coward" at May 26, 98 05:17:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2181 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980527/a1c3e264/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at jps.net Tue May 26 19:54:33 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: FW: Fellow needs a VAXen in NYC -- anyone? Message-ID: <356b640f.1995240053@smtp.wa.jps.net> Found on Usenet. Contact Mr. Tarka directly if you can help. Thanks. -=-=- -=-=- From: Mark Tarka Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: WTB small VAX/VMS system, NYC area Message-ID: <009C6C1A.8500DE82.26@earth.oscs.montana.edu> Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:35:52 MDT Organization: Info-Vax<==>Comp.Os.Vms Gateway X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List Lines: 14 Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news.burgoyne.com!news.eecs.umich.edu!nntprelay.mathworks.com!mvb.saic.com!info-vax I've got to be in NYC on personal business in early June. Anyone in NYC or within the commuting area have a _small_ vax/vaxstation/uvax to donate or sell? I'm interested mainly in a box, with any external storage devices (disk, tape), working or repairable, and documentation. The system has to be somewhat compliant with whatever passes for standard I/O to the external environment (a 3100 for example would be a bad idea :-) Mark -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin {at} j

s d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From rax at warbaby.com Tue May 26 21:09:15 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980526150036.00f85970@pop.batnet.com> References: <3.0.16.19980525093632.6e4fd76e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: >At 12:40 5/26/98 -0800, rax wrote: >>Back in my day, we had to carve our own IC's out of wood. > >So bits are called that because they were drilled? > Yep. And the little chips of wood that were left were called...chips. R. -- Robert Arnold Managing Editor The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Creator and Eminence Grise Warbaby: The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. muahahahahaaaaa http://www.warbaby.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue May 26 20:13:01 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? In-Reply-To: from "Kai Kaltenbach" at May 26, 98 12:27:11 pm Message-ID: <199805270113.SAA10813@saul9.u.washington.edu> > It's not a conversion or anything, it's original from Apple. It looks > exactly like a IIe except for the model emblem and the back panel. As someone already pointed out, you have an official Apple product, a //e- to-//gs upgrade. When we got our family //e, I had fantasies about that upgrade, but we never got it (and I guess VERY few other people did either). I seem to remember the list price as around $800. $864? Something like that. Do you have the normal //e-size monitor? That would be an advantage over the stock //gs. Do you also have the same //e keyboard? Has it been converted to use ADB? I always liked the feel of the //e's keyboard better than the //gs' little keyboard. But if the upgrade's keyboard isn't modular like the regular //gs, that would be a disadvantage in some ways. -- Derek From rcini at email.msn.com Tue May 26 20:23:19 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Best way to read N* disks?? Message-ID: <005b01bd8910$c1708220$6e21a7cd@bothell> Allison/Marvin: Thanks. I was afraid that it was a problem that software couldn't manage around. Right now, my N* is non-working (actually, it hasn't worked since I got it), but I was trying to examine what was contained on the diskettes. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking Collector of classic computers <<<========== Reply Separator ==========>>> From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue May 26 21:01:54 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? Message-ID: <21de0264.356b7413@aol.com> yes indeedy, apple provided an upgrade path for //e users. for $500 you got a new gs planar, and a sticker that replaced the lower case apple //e one with //gs. of course, one of the caveats is you didnt get ADB and seperate keyboard. i dont think many people upgraded due to the price. i have an old magazine that had a writeup about the upgrade. if anyone's that interested i can look up details or make copies. message me privately. david In a message dated 98-05-26 21:15:04 EDT, you write: << > It's not a conversion or anything, it's original from Apple. It looks > exactly like a IIe except for the model emblem and the back panel. As someone already pointed out, you have an official Apple product, a //e- to-//gs upgrade. When we got our family //e, I had fantasies about that upgrade, but we never got it (and I guess VERY few other people did either). I seem to remember the list price as around $800. $864? Something like that. >> From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue May 26 21:10:48 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? Message-ID: Seems like a cool find. Historically, all such upgrades have been 90% of the purchase price for a new machine -- up to and including Apple's more recent PowerMac upgrade boards, so I'm not surprised that it's rare. If it's a mag like Byte or kilobaud, I'd love to know the issue #. Kai -----Original Message----- From: SUPRDAVE [mailto:SUPRDAVE@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 7:02 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? yes indeedy, apple provided an upgrade path for //e users. for $500 you got a new gs planar, and a sticker that replaced the lower case apple //e one with //gs. of course, one of the caveats is you didnt get ADB and seperate keyboard. i dont think many people upgraded due to the price. i have an old magazine that had a writeup about the upgrade. if anyone's that interested i can look up details or make copies. message me privately. david In a message dated 98-05-26 21:15:04 EDT, you write: << > It's not a conversion or anything, it's original from Apple. It looks > exactly like a IIe except for the model emblem and the back panel. As someone already pointed out, you have an official Apple product, a //e- to-//gs upgrade. When we got our family //e, I had fantasies about that upgrade, but we never got it (and I guess VERY few other people did either). I seem to remember the list price as around $800. $864? Something like that. >> From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue May 26 21:13:52 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? Message-ID: <003601bd891b$a51ceae0$2267bcc1@hotze> I seem to remember hearing (although I couldn't tell you where if my life depended on it...) that Apple made it's earlier IIGS prototypes inside of IIe cases. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: D. Peschel To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, May 27, 1998 4:18 AM Subject: Re: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? >> It's not a conversion or anything, it's original from Apple. It looks >> exactly like a IIe except for the model emblem and the back panel. > >As someone already pointed out, you have an official Apple product, a //e- >to-//gs upgrade. When we got our family //e, I had fantasies about that >upgrade, but we never got it (and I guess VERY few other people did either). > >I seem to remember the list price as around $800. $864? Something like that. > >Do you have the normal //e-size monitor? That would be an advantage over the >stock //gs. Do you also have the same //e keyboard? Has it been converted to >use ADB? I always liked the feel of the //e's keyboard better than the //gs' >little keyboard. But if the upgrade's keyboard isn't modular like the regular >//gs, that would be a disadvantage in some ways. > >-- Derek From dastar at wco.com Tue May 26 22:09:51 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Apple modification In-Reply-To: <19980526183816.19971.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 May 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > I have a little dilemma here. For one thing, I have an Apple //c. I am > being offered an Apple ][+ (I think) for free that has a Digital > Research z-80 card in it,with manual, as well as an external keyboard > kludge. There is also software. However, there is an issue with space. > Is there any way to modify the Apple //c to make it take expansion > cards? Should I just take the ][+? Also, how much should I pay for a Nope. The //c is a mostly closed system. Add-on RAM and Z-80 cards were made for it (among other things I'm sure) but it simply can't take Apple ][ cards. The //c is so small, just tuck that away under your bed and get the ][+ as well. They're both fun to play with. > Laser 128? It's being offered for $25 at a thrift shop w/o PSU. Lastly, Skip the Laser 128, especially at that price. Wait til you find one for $10 or less. They can be found pretty readily. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue May 26 22:14:52 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Apple modification Message-ID: <415d317a.356b852e@aol.com> In a message dated 98-05-26 23:11:39 EDT, you write: << > Laser 128? It's being offered for $25 at a thrift shop w/o PSU. Lastly, >> if it's a regular laser128, i wouldnt bother much. however, if its a 128ex, or ex2, get it quick! those had extra options including built in memory expansion. ive seen a few lasers for sale, always without the power brick it seems. i have two complete systems myself. david From KFergason at aol.com Tue May 26 22:19:27 1998 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? Message-ID: <97a2b119.356b8641@aol.com> I can verify this. We got 2 beta units to develop on, in the IIe case. I always wondered what happened to them. Kelly In a message dated 5/26/98 10:01:56 PM Central Daylight Time, photze@batelco.com.bh writes: > I seem to remember hearing (although I couldn't tell you where if my life > depended on it...) that Apple made it's earlier IIGS prototypes inside of > IIe cases. > Ciao, > > Tim D. Hotze > From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed May 27 00:34:29 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980526125608.3b8f23ee@ricochet.net> At 06:44 PM 5/26/98 +1000, you wrote: >I have one question , well I actually have two...... >though, what software came on cassetes? >and what is the most common fault in the IBM full height floppy drives that >makes them die??? I dunno about IBM PC cassette-based software, but lots of other systems used them... (I remember Atari's Infamous christmas cassettes, including "The Spy who came in from the Code"... Iirc, the IBM FH floppies were belt driven... The belts slipped a lot. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From desieh at southcom.com.au Tue May 26 23:36:30 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? Message-ID: <001001bd8929$058af860$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Kai Kaltenbach To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 27 May 1998 5:29 Subject: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? >I just acquired an Apple IIgs that is in an Apple IIe style case! > >It's not a conversion or anything, it's original from Apple. It looks >exactly like a IIe except for the model emblem and the back panel. > >Perhaps it's something Apple did for the educational market, to make it look >like the other machines they were used to, and incorporating a built-in >keyboard which would be less fragile than the multi-piece regular IIgs >series. > >Anybody ever heard of these? > >Kai > email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm yes this was a official upgrade from Apple, Ive done one of these in the past............ you could upgrade any of the older IIs to the gs. From desieh at southcom.com.au Tue May 26 23:40:39 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old Message-ID: <005701bd8929$9a24a840$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 26 May 1998 22:27 Subject: Re: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old >At 06:44 PM 5/26/98 +1000, you wrote: >> >> >>I have one question , well I actually have two...... >>though, what software came on cassetes? >>and what is the most common fault in the IBM full height floppy drives that >>makes them die??? >> > I dunno about the FH drives. I've never seen one die! They seem to >last forever! > > Joe > email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm oh well with my 5150 it has two FH IBM drives in i and they both seem to be dead, Ive replaced the controllor card check the dips, checked power output, it seems here in Austrlaia these drives are almost impossable to get a hold of...... From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed May 27 08:44:27 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Old tape In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 26, 98 11:28:28 am Message-ID: <9805271244.AA03044@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 686 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980527/9b9dc0b1/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Wed May 27 10:05:58 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Old tape In-Reply-To: <9805271244.AA03044@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: > I'll have to dig out one of my old books about tape formats in the > 60's, but I think this might be one of the 13- or 14-track tapes > that I've read about. Wow, says that the tape is from an RCA BIZMAC. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 27 10:32:31 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: More stuff acquired In-Reply-To: References: <199805260237.TAA00918@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980527103231.250fae22@intellistar.net> At 07:37 PM 5/26/98 +0100, you wrote: >> Tony mentioned HP-IL and that made me think of what I've been plodding >> through today: a box full of HP-41 and HP-IL documentation. Shame I > >Well done!. Some of those manuals are not common > >> So what have I got? Well, thus far: >> >> The HP-IL Interface Specification >> p/n 82166-90017, Nov 1982 > >IIRC that's the low-level spec of the HPIL and it gives things like the >electrical description of 0's and 1's, the frame formats, etc. > >> HP 00041-15043 HP-IL Development Module Owner's Manual >> p/n 00041-90449 Rev B, Oct 1984 > >A ROM for the HP41, I think. Essential if you use HPIL on the 41, but >I've only really used it on the 71B and the HP150-II. Yes, it's a ROM for the 41. It's a very good ROM and usefull even if you don't have any HP-IL stuff. > >> 1LB3-0003 The HP-IL Integrated Circuit User's Manual >> p/n 82166-90016 Rev B, Nov 1983 > >The 1LB3 is a custom HP chip that sits on an 8 bit microprocessor bus and >talks HPIL on the other side. Most HP HPIL units, apart from the handheld >calculators, contain this chip. That book is essentially the data sheet >for it > >> HP 82166C The HP-IL Interface Kit Technical Guide >> p/n 82166-90020 Rev B, May 1983 > >Dunno that one. Possibly the manual for the kit that contained 1LB3s and >some programmed 3870 microcontrollers? Yes, exactly. It shows the description of all the parts in the kit and has the schematics of the 82166 convertor. It has more but I can't find my copy at the moment. > >> HP 82166A HP-IL Converter Technical Manual >> p/n 82166-90002, Nov 1982 The operating manual for the 82166. >> HP 82165A HP-IL/GPIO Interface HP 81266A HP-IL Converter Manual Supplement >> p/n 82165-90012, Oct 1982 The operating manual for the 82165. The 82165 is similar to the 82166 ( IL to 16 bit parallel buss) but the 82165 is bigger and runs from a HP 82159 wall wart that provides 8 VAC power. The 82166 requires 5 VDC. > >The 82166 was an interface between some 8-bit ports and the HPIL, with >the controller on the HPIL side. It's a fun device for linking up >homebrew projects to calculators. There was also a version called the >82165, which was in the standard case (like the HPIB converter and the >RS232 converter), and had a DB25-S connector for the 'GPIO' parallel port. > Yeap, except they have 16 I/O lines and a couple of handshaking lines. The 16 I/O lines can be software configured as input only, output only or input & output. They can be software configured as one 16 bit port, two 8-bit ports, etc. Joe >> >> OK, that is what I found in the first binder. Somehow I have a feeling >> I'm gonna wish I had Tony's clues by the time I get done with this. > >Oh come on. I'm not that clueful, surely... > >> >> -Frank McConnell >> > >-tony > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 27 10:51:01 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: <005701bd8929$9a24a840$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980527105101.5487096c@intellistar.net> At 02:40 PM 5/27/98 +1000, you wrote: Desie, Let me know if you want some. There's plenty of them here in the trift stores. I can buy the entire PC for about $5. If you want some drives and are willing to pay the cost ($5) and shipping (?), I'll get some for you. Joe > >oh well with my 5150 it has two FH IBM drives in i and they both seem to be >dead, Ive replaced the controllor card check the dips, >checked power output, it seems here in Austrlaia these drives are almost >impossable to get a hold of...... > > > > From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed May 27 11:54:48 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? Message-ID: How would you tell a prototype from the conversion? thanks Kai -----Original Message----- From: KFergason [mailto:KFergason@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 8:19 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? I can verify this. We got 2 beta units to develop on, in the IIe case. I always wondered what happened to them. Kelly In a message dated 5/26/98 10:01:56 PM Central Daylight Time, photze@batelco.com.bh writes: > I seem to remember hearing (although I couldn't tell you where if my life > depended on it...) that Apple made it's earlier IIGS prototypes inside of > IIe cases. > Ciao, > > Tim D. Hotze > From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed May 27 12:15:31 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? Message-ID: <001301bd8993$10e0aec0$a867bcc1@hotze> I dunno about this... but I seem to remember a mention of a sticker... either green or orange. That, and look on the boards/chips and see what you can find... if you have a IIe, look for things that that shold have... lets see... check for stuff like 'prototype' or something. Or, if anyone knows it, the IIGS's code name... Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Kai Kaltenbach To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, May 27, 1998 7:58 PM Subject: RE: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? >How would you tell a prototype from the conversion? > >thanks > >Kai > >-----Original Message----- >From: KFergason [mailto:KFergason@aol.com] >Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 8:19 PM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Re: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? > > > >I can verify this. We got 2 beta units to develop on, in the IIe case. >I always wondered what happened to them. > >Kelly > >In a message dated 5/26/98 10:01:56 PM Central Daylight Time, >photze@batelco.com.bh writes: > >> I seem to remember hearing (although I couldn't tell you where if my life >> depended on it...) that Apple made it's earlier IIGS prototypes inside of >> IIe cases. >> Ciao, >> >> Tim D. Hotze >> From manney at lrbcg.com Wed May 27 12:12:32 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: A 10 yr old Burroughs Message-ID: <01bd8992$a315fe40$LocalHost@laptop> The following equipment is available, thanks to the Y2K harvest. I have no idea what else comes with this (software, I presume) -- B28-CPU 80286 processor B25-CPU 80186 processor module B27-CLS Cluster Workstation CPU (2 available) B27-CPU Master Workstation CPU B25-M4-90 90 MB Winc with 5 1/4" B25-MC6-85 85 MB ECC Winc w/o fl. B25-MX5-85 85MB Exp. W/o Floppy B25-TS .25" Tape Streamer AP1351-1 100-400 CPS, 132 col. printer (2 avail) B25-PC PC Emulator control slice B25-M4-50 40/50 MB disc, 5 1/4" fl MF-422 422 MB 380 0-180 cps 80 col. printer 391+ 90-270 cps 123 col. printer Anyone interested? manney@lrbcg.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed May 27 14:02:22 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Apple modification Message-ID: <19980527190222.23741.qmail@hotmail.com> I think it's an ex, not sure. Can I make a PSU? Is the one for the C64 or //c compatible? > >if it's a regular laser128, i wouldnt bother much. however, if its a 128ex, or >ex2, get it quick! those had extra options including built in memory >expansion. ive seen a few lasers for sale, always without the power brick it >seems. i have two complete systems myself. > >david > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dastar at wco.com Wed May 27 14:12:59 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 27 May 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > How would you tell a prototype from the conversion? Well, I have a //gs prototype. The main difference is that when you turn mine on there's this annoyingly loud and high-pitched buzz that is constantly being spewed. Luckily for Apple they fixed that particular bug before they shipped. It also has a multi-chip ROM board that plugs into one of the ROM sockets, as opposed to a single ROM in the production model. When it boots up, it says "Apple BL" on the top line. The silkscreen markings on the motherboard are different than a production //gs. There's no copyright for instance (I think). It also came in a //e case (originally, when I got it it had been transferred to a //gs case). If you want I can go look at mine again and write down a comparison chart from my normal //gs like I did with the prototype //c. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed May 27 14:10:37 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Apple modification Message-ID: <460cd60b.356c652e@aol.com> it's my understanding that the //c's ps will work with the laser. i think the connection is the same, and the voltages are slightly different, but close enough to get it to work. In a message dated 98-05-27 15:04:32 EDT, you write: << I think it's an ex, not sure. Can I make a PSU? Is the one for the C64 or //c compatible? > >if it's a regular laser128, i wouldnt bother much. however, if its a 128ex, or >ex2, get it quick! those had extra options including built in memory >expansion. ive seen a few lasers for sale, always without the power brick it >seems. i have two complete systems myself. > >david > From tomowad at earthlink.net Wed May 27 15:51:25 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? Message-ID: <199805272051.NAA29892@sweden.it.earthlink.net> >I dunno about this... but I seem to remember a mention of a sticker... >either green or orange. That, and look on the boards/chips and see what you >can find... if you have a IIe, look for things that that shold have... lets >see... check for stuff like 'prototype' or something. Or, if anyone knows >it, the IIGS's code name... The Apple IIgs was code named "Cortland", "Phoenix", "Rambo", and "Gumby". Tom Owad From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed May 27 16:47:13 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: 11/34a help #3 Message-ID: Thanks first to all who have offered help and advice. (Re: sacrifices... roosters have psitticosis and mites, and as for virgins... c'mon guys, I'm in *California*.... ) The computer works; the disk drives don't. Armed with the printsets for the drive and the controller, and assisted by the Group, I am reasonably certain that thr RK05 itself is in good shape. I have simulated all it's 'ready' conditions and it's fine. I have changed (twice... aarrghhh) the interface cable... all same. The RK05 thinks that DCLO is asserted. "Forcing' DCLO at the drive makes it work. I have measured DCLO and ACLO at the RK11D backplane.. they are at +5V. In the drive, +30VAC is good into the control card. On the RK11D, I have traced DCLO to the wirewrap pins, and it appears good. I have yet to figure out the path DCLO takes thru the RK11 stack. This problem has been most baffling so far because DCLO originates in the RK05 and in the RK11 and in the BA-11.. so it's a multiple-varible with a commaon symptom. I seem to be converging on it, but if anything jumps out at someone with some actual field experience with these devices... it might save me a few more hours of discovering all the various places where the problem "isn't". ;} To Tony Duell: thanks for the e-mail.. I did indeed verify the itms you mentioned... the 'interlock' circuits are working, microswitches good, etc. ALSO: I would love to have a pointer to the D11W SLU/LTC card switch settings... at least the baud rate stuff... I want to use my LA120 as a console rather than the VT100... getting Unix going is next after the drives a working, and I want hard copy for that. I have looked and not found this particular info on the Net so far. Cheers to all John From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed May 27 17:04:04 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Processing data in blocks Message-ID: <19980527220404.8769.qmail@hotmail.com> Back when I asked about the HP 3000, someone mentioned that it processed data in blocks. What exactly does that mean? How does it work? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 27 14:16:48 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: <005701bd8929$9a24a840$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> from "Desie Hay" at May 27, 98 02:40:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 777 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980527/0a9aa462/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 27 14:27:38 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: More stuff acquired In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980527103231.250fae22@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 27, 98 10:32:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1064 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980527/984a4024/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed May 27 19:18:57 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: 11/34a help #3 In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at May 27, 98 02:47:13 pm Message-ID: <9805272318.AA00893@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 576 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980527/4e98d922/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed May 27 19:21:55 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: 11/34a Thanx.. In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 26, 98 08:53:24 pm Message-ID: <9805272321.AA17354@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 461 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980527/d453802f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 27 18:04:30 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: 11/34a help #3 In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at May 27, 98 02:47:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3716 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980528/59416132/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 27 19:28:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: 11/34a Thanx.. In-Reply-To: <9805272321.AA17354@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at May 27, 98 04:21:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 737 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980528/dd0cb578/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed May 27 19:40:07 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Linux login (OT) Message-ID: <19980528004007.20956.qmail@hotmail.com> I know there are some linux users, so if you know the answer, please respond privately. How do I make it so that someone can login remotely over a terminal? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jon at techniche.com Wed May 27 19:56:35 1998 From: jon at techniche.com (Jon Healey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: More stuff acquired Message-ID: <199805280056.UAA06852@camel7.mindspring.com> Hi, I've not participated much since I joined this mail group a number of weeks back, so I thought I'd make myself heard. A few of you seem to be pretty familiar with HP equipment so maybe you can tell me what I have (or have not) here. I pick up a box of junk at the local recycler several weeks ago. It caught my eye because it has some microprocessor emulator pods. In the box were the following: Z8002 emulation pod, HP part # 64233A (says use with 64271A) Z80 emulation pod, HP part # 64252A (says use with 64251A) 6801/6803 pod, HP part # 64256A (says use with 64255A) also the following boards: 64300/66501 internal analysis bd 64154/66501 Static Ram board (only one of 4 rows has sockets installed) 64152/66501 Static Ram board (All 4 rows socketed and populated) [both of the above have 2147 memory chips] 64211/66501 680x Control board I called HP and asked what the pod normally connect to, just in case it was still down at the surplus store and I had overlooked it. HP says that they would normally be used with a "frame" (?) i.e. some sort of general purpose analyzer having a part number of 29000 or 29120 (these two number are from memory since I can't find my notes at the moment where I wrote down the two numbers. It was either 29000 or 59000 but I'm pretty sure it was 29000). I was attracted to the emualtion pods because they looked like they had never been used. All of the pins appeared to be straight and intact. There was protective foam one each pod. What can you guys tell me about these? I'm thinking that without the frame they are not very useful to me. Perhaps they're worth something in trade? Thanks, Jon From kyrrin at jps.net Wed May 27 20:46:55 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: FW: Fellow's looking for old DEC HW... Message-ID: <3575c1d7.2084878506@smtp.wa.jps.net> Found on Usenet. If you can help, please contact the author directly. -=-=- -=-=- From: Kerry Davis Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Subject: Any PDP-12/15/whatever to be had? Date: 27 May 1998 03:43:00 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 9 Message-ID: <6kgqnk$cdr@nntp02.primenet.com> X-Posted-By: kdavis@207.218.4.36 (yab) Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!calwebnntp!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter1!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail I had some neat old gear once, that I enjoyed playing with. Including a couple PDP-12s, 15s, 8s, a Linc-8... quite a variety actually. Anyone know of any place with some stuff like that available, for sale? I'd like to have some of that again, both for my own enjoyment and to be able to show some people how things used to be. Kerry Davis Phoenix, Arizona kdavis@bbs.yab.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin {at} j

s d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From gram at cnct.com Wed May 27 20:56:39 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey References: Message-ID: <356CC457.BC1782CF@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Agreed. That web page is full of errors! > > > I'm going to go write a letter to the webmaster and let the bastards have > > it. > > Good idea. I don't like errors on the web, no matter how much I wish they > were correct. Do remember that that the _real_ Tandy computer line ended with the sale of _all_ manufacturing or real support capability in 1993 to AST. (Well, the _real_ Tandy computer line ended in 1988 with the end ofthe Color Computer 3 and the TRS-80 4D, but I'm _trying_ to give some undeserved credit to the guys in the PC compatible product lines). Any "computer support" people they now have (including any so-called Web Masters) remember nothing of when Tandy designed and manufactured their own computers and software. And they did some of the best Z-80 software in history. Scripsit 2.0 for the Model II is the second-best _general purpose_ word processing program in history, just ahead of WordStar 3.3 and just behind AllWrite by Prosoft. In my arrogant opinion, and I started my career doing traing and support at a Radio Shack Computer Center in 1980, left in 1986 _because_ everything was about to be PC-compatible, and have since had to support crappy Microsoft users because they insist on connecting the damned things to the Unix boxes that are what I prefer. (I keep having to learn the latest collection of Microsoft errors [oops, the latest version of Windows] in self-defense). Yes, Microsoft was _critical_ to the success of several Tandy products, such as most BASIC interpreters and getting Xenix started. But they in the end destroyed Tandy's credibility with the help of Tandy Corp. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From adam at merlin.net.au Wed May 27 20:03:35 1998 From: adam at merlin.net.au (Adam Jenkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Compaq Portable in OZ????? In-Reply-To: <00c001bd82df$c2596bc0$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> Message-ID: >anyone on this list in OZ have a original Compaq Portable they want to >sell/trade or give away?? Are you still after one? What are you after generally? I might have a lead on one, but I am inclined to keep my own unless it is for something urgent. :) Adam. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed May 27 22:11:30 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Processing data in blocks In-Reply-To: <19980527220404.8769.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at May 27, 98 03:04:04 pm Message-ID: <9805280211.AA25859@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 913 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980527/d8d15688/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed May 27 22:16:38 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: <356CC457.BC1782CF@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at May 27, 98 09:56:39 pm Message-ID: <9805280216.AA32092@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 735 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980527/cdefd653/attachment.ksh From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Wed May 27 21:41:02 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: <356CC457.BC1782CF@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at May 27, 98 09:56:39 pm Message-ID: <199805280241.WAA27349@shell.monmouth.com> Ward Griffiths wrote: > Any "computer support" people they now have (including any so-called Web > Masters) remember nothing of when Tandy designed and manufactured > their own computers and software. And they did some of the best Z-80 > software in history. Scripsit 2.0 for the Model II is the second-best > _general purpose_ word processing program in history, just ahead of > WordStar 3.3 and just behind AllWrite by Prosoft. In my arrogant > opinion, and I started my career doing traing and support at a Radio > Shack Computer Center in 1980, left in 1986 _because_ everything was > about to be PC-compatible, and have since had to support crappy > Microsoft users because they insist on connecting the damned things to > the Unix boxes that are what I prefer. (I keep having to learn the > latest collection of Microsoft errors [oops, the latest version of > Windows] in self-defense). > Yeah, well I've been so sure of my view that WordStar was the best general purpose word processing problem -- I think it's time for the great editor debate round two. (I especially loved WS v4 -- the New Word rework for CP/M and v6 of WS for DOS.) (I actually fell in love with WS2000 which had the one drawback -- that is that it's not WS key compatible) Radio Shack (Tandy) and Heath (Zenith) did some great work and they don't get the credit they deserve. Microsoft wrote a very nice 8080 CP/M basic, however. 8-) Bill From dastar at wco.com Wed May 27 22:04:09 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: <356CC457.BC1782CF@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 May 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > undeserved credit to the guys in the PC compatible product lines). Any > "computer support" people they now have (including any so-called Web > Masters) remember nothing of when Tandy designed and manufactured > their own computers and software. And they did some of the best Z-80 All the more reason to clue them in to the actual facts, rather than let pass this egregious excuse for "research" done most likely by some recent college graduate. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From fmc at reanimators.org Wed May 27 23:38:17 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Processing data in blocks In-Reply-To: "Max Eskin"'s message of Wed, 27 May 1998 15:04:04 PDT References: <19980527220404.8769.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199805280438.VAA18888@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Max Eskin" wrote: > Back when I asked about the HP 3000, someone mentioned that it > processed data in blocks. What exactly does that mean? How does it > work? Tim's answer got part of it. Here's some more of the picture, maybe in gorier detail than you wanted to know. Many HP terminals are somewhat intelligent and can be told (via escape sequence or strap setting) to operate in "block mode", where the terminal buffers data in its local display memory and lets the user do local editing of it there. There can also be protected and unprotected fields, which basically turn the display into a fill-in form where the user can type in the unprotected fields and not in the protected fields. Some keys (ENTER (not RETURN) and the function keys) will still initiate a transfer to the host computer. How that works is a collection of fiddly little details but I'm going to try to describe it in terms of the DC1/DC2/DC1 block-mode handshake. Once the form has been sent to the terminal by the application (which basically sends escape sequences and text to set up the block mode, the form, and the unprotected fields), the application starts a read. The terminal I/O system then sends a DC1 (control-Q) to the terminal so the terminal knows there's a read pending. When the user presses ENTER or a function key to tell the terminal to send the form, the terminal sends a DC2 (control-R) to the host as an indication that there's a block of data ready for transmission. The host does whatever it needs to do to get ready for the block (this was important in the days of the Series II/III which used a terminal controller that couldn't handle all 16 ports sending 2400 bps data at the same time) and then sends another DC1 as a go-ahead, and the terminal sends an escape sequence for the pressed key followed by the block of data (usually the data from the unprotected fields on the form, separated by field-separator (FS) characters, and finishing up with a record-separator (RS) character). The terminal won't send anything more 'til it sees another DC1 from the host. OK, well, that's about what you see on the wire if you stick a serial line analyzer in between the 3000 and a terminal, and watch as an application written using one of the more popular block-mode application subroutine libraries (VIEW aka V/3000 aka VPLUS/3000) is in use. Later 3000s have terminal controllers that can handle full speed on all ports, and they can use a simplified block-mode handshake (i.e. the 3000 sends the initial DC1, and the terminal just sends the block when the user presses ENTER or a function key). The goal of all this was, as Tim said, getting a rather slow HP3000 to run a surprisingly big bunch of terminals doing transactions against data on the 3000. The 3000 didn't have to do any work for the user until the user had the transaction edited on the screen, in particular it didn't have to respond to every user keystroke, and as the terminal didn't have anything better to do it could respond to the user's keystrokes right away. There were also some full-screen editors that relied on the terminal to buffer lines of text and let you do your editing in the terminal. Those I used tended to run in line block mode (vs. VIEW which I think used page block mode) where once the user pressed ENTER the host would home the cursor and start sending escape sequences ("d" I think, followed by a DC1 once the read was pending) to get the terminal to send the current line 'til it got to the bottom. Feel free to ask questions about this if you want to know more. -Frank McConnell From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Thu May 28 00:54:21 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: Processing data in blocks In-Reply-To: <199805280438.VAA18888@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at May 27, 98 09:38:17 pm Message-ID: <199805280554.WAA27968@saul4.u.washington.edu> > There were also some full-screen editors that relied on the terminal > to buffer lines of text and let you do your editing in the terminal. > Those I used tended to run in line block mode (vs. VIEW which I think > used page block mode) where once the user pressed ENTER the host would > home the cursor and start sending escape sequences ("d" I think, > followed by a DC1 once the read was pending) to get the terminal to > send the current line 'til it got to the bottom. > > Feel free to ask questions about this if you want to know more. I hope the invitation isn't directed at only one person. :) My only experience with block-mode terminals was with a 3278 (or some other 3270 derivative) talking to an AS/400. It was pretty nasty, though that was partly due to the software on the AS/400 (and the fact that I had no privileges on the system). All this stuff is made by IBM, in case anyone was wondering. One thing I realized from the exposure (and have since read about) is that the local editing features are usually horribly limited, _and_ they're impossible to extend unless you modify the hardware. What kind of local editing do the HP terminals provide? (Any fancy cursor movement keys, line editing, cut- and-paste, etc.?) I'm trying to get a feeling for how well the HP editors stack up against more modern ones. The line editor sounds pretty nice, actu- ally. (I use vi -- which is the same kind of full-screen line editor -- a lot. The navigation commands are nice and quick.) I mentioned reading... there are stories about people trying to combine full- screen interactive editing with local terminal editing, and finding that the two don't mix. The people usually bit the bullet, invested in the extra hardware, and gave the workload back to the CPU. I think there was an enhanced version of TECO at Stanford that falls into this category. I know that Emacs on MULTICS was developed like that. Personally, I found the local editing completely inadequate for dealing with the multicolumn file lists and pop-up windows the AS/400 kept putting onscreen. Using only arrow keys to move the cursor to precise places all over the screen was a real chore. The designs of input and display just didn't match ewll. -- Derek From kevan at heydon.org Thu May 28 02:50:30 1998 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:09 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow available in Cambridge UK Message-ID: Hi, I have a DEC Rainbow that I want to pass onto another collector. I live in Cambridge UK, and while I can deliver for a short distance collection would be the best as there are quite a few manuals that go with it. Drop me an email if you are interested -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From kevan at heydon.org Thu May 28 02:54:23 1998 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: HP 9000/217 available in Cambridge UK Message-ID: Hi, I have a HP 9000/217 that I want to pass onto another collector. As with the Rainbow previously, it would be best if you could collect from Cambridge UK, but I could be persuaded to deliver as long as it's not too far away. To see a picture of the machine in question go to: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/manufacturer-hp/9000_217.html Drop me an email if you are interested. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From adam at merlin.net.au Thu May 28 07:47:49 1998 From: adam at merlin.net.au (Adam Jenkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Apricot Portable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi! I was finally offered an Apricot Portable, which is a computer that I really wanted, but the person has no idea what to ask for it and I have no idea of the value. I just know they look cool. Does anyone have an idea how much something like that would be worth in th UK? Thanks heaps, Adam. From Marty at itgonline.com Thu May 28 09:14:02 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: IBM SYSTEM 36 IN RICHMOND, VIRGINIA NEEDS LOVING HOME Message-ID: <1998May28.101328.1767.107044@smtp.itgonline.com> An IBM System 36 (Type 5336 or Type 5360 depending on whom you speak to) is available free in Richmond, Virginia at CW Wright Construction Company. Contact Vaughn Atkinson or Bob Jennings @ 804-768-1054 for more details. Marty From fmc at reanimators.org Thu May 28 10:27:34 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Processing data in blocks In-Reply-To: "D. Peschel"'s message of Wed, 27 May 1998 22:54:21 -0700 (PDT) References: <199805280554.WAA27968@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199805281527.IAA09938@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "D. Peschel" writes: > I hope the invitation isn't directed at only one person. :) Nope. > One thing I realized from the exposure (and have since read about) is > that the local editing features are usually horribly limited, _and_ > they're impossible to extend unless you modify the hardware. What > kind of local editing do the HP terminals provide? (Any fancy cursor > movement keys, line editing, cut- and-paste, etc.?) I'm trying to get > a feeling for how well the HP editors stack up against more modern > ones. The line editor sounds pretty nice, actually. (I use vi -- > which is the same kind of full-screen line editor -- a lot. The > navigation commands are nice and quick.) For what passes for full-screen editing, the display is pretty much something you can type on. Cursor movements available are up, down, left, right, page up, page down, home (top-of-buffer), and end-of-buffer. Typing defaults to type-over but there is an insert-char mode that you can turn on and off from the keyboard. If you do this, wrapping is kind of simple (it will open up a new next-line and wrap characters onto that as they go past the right margin). Also you can delete characters from the keyboard (but this does not un-wrap wrapped characters). It's also possible to delete lines and add blank lines, and clear to end-of-display. Not cut-and-paste, though; well, if you can use the memory lock feature of the terminal you might be able to do it but some of the full-screen editors used it in a way such that if you tried to use it you would screw things up and lose work. Things are somewhat different if protected fields are set up; those will limit character insertion and deletion. > I mentioned reading... there are stories about people trying to > combine full-screen interactive editing with local terminal editing, > and finding that the two don't mix. The people usually bit the > bullet, invested in the extra hardware, and gave the workload back to > the CPU. I think there was an enhanced version of TECO at Stanford > that falls into this category. I know that Emacs on MULTICS was > developed like that. Mind pointing me to some of those stories. HP did something odd in the early-mid 1980s: HPWORD. This was a word processing system for the HP3000 that used 2626W (and later, 2628A and HP150) terminals as intelligent front-ends. When you first started HPWORD after turning the terminal on, it would spend about 10 minutes downloading code to the terminal, and then the downloaded code ran the interface and the communications link back to the HPWORD process on the 3000. I was told at the time that the terminal handled processing up to the paragraph level, and got the 3000 to do anything larger. HPWORD was actually a little more WYSIWYG than, say, Wordstar, because the terminal actually had bold and italic faces and underlining features. And it was nifty because you could queue up a print job from one terminal to a printer connected to another HPWORD terminal; the backing HPWORDs running on the 3000 would talk to each other and get the document printed. Oh, and someone could be typing on the terminal that had the printer connected. All in all, it was a cheaper solution than PCs in the 1983-1984 time frame when we bought into it -- we didn't have to buy a printer for every workstation, and we didn't have to pick a PC LAN with lots of funny cabling. > Personally, I found the local editing completely inadequate for > dealing with the multicolumn file lists and pop-up windows the AS/400 > kept putting onscreen. Using only arrow keys to move the cursor to > precise places all over the screen was a real chore. The designs of > input and display just didn't match ewll. Yeah, and back then I used to switch between editors depending on the job at hand. Some things just work better with good old EDIT/3000, and even for editing code I liked QUAD. Later when I went to work at Wollongong I discovered Voodoo on the 3000 there and got kind of used to it; it tries to be vi-like but the inherent inability of the 3000's terminal I/O to accept characters without a pending read (and to do anything else while there is a pending read) really got in its way sometimes. Now I just use Emacs (though not on the 3000), and quite frankly I do think it works better. -Frank McConnell From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu May 28 12:42:15 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Processing data in blocks Message-ID: <01IXKBC4U1SMAEW4ZG@cc.usu.edu> From: Frank McConnell > HPWORD was actually a little more WYSIWYG than, say, Wordstar, because > the terminal actually had bold and italic faces and underlining > features. Wordstar on the Otrona Attache was also very WYSIWYG because the Otrona could do any video attribute Wordstar every dreamed of: italics, underline, strikethrough, bold, etc. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 28 11:26:42 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: More stuff acquired In-Reply-To: <199805280056.UAA06852@camel7.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980528112642.305fc3e4@intellistar.net> Jon, Your stuff is part of a HP 64000 uProcessor development system. I've seen a lot of bits and pieces for the 64000 systems floating around but there doesn't seem to be any interest in them. I have a bunch of manuals for one if you're intersted. There is one website that has one display but I don't have the URL for it. I think it's someone at the Universiy of New Mexico. Joe At 08:56 PM 5/27/98 -0400, you wrote: >Hi, > >I've not participated much since I joined this mail group >a number of weeks back, so I thought I'd make myself heard. > >A few of you seem to be pretty familiar with HP equipment >so maybe you can tell me what I have (or have not) here. > >I pick up a box of junk at the local recycler several >weeks ago. It caught my eye because it has some microprocessor >emulator pods. In the box were the following: > >Z8002 emulation pod, HP part # 64233A (says use with 64271A) > >Z80 emulation pod, HP part # 64252A (says use with 64251A) > >6801/6803 pod, HP part # 64256A (says use with 64255A) > >also the following boards: > >64300/66501 internal analysis bd >64154/66501 Static Ram board (only one of 4 rows has sockets installed) >64152/66501 Static Ram board (All 4 rows socketed and populated) >[both of the above have 2147 memory chips] >64211/66501 680x Control board > >I called HP and asked what the pod normally connect to, just in >case it was still down at the surplus store and I had overlooked it. > >HP says that they would normally be used with a "frame" (?) i.e. >some sort of general purpose analyzer having a part number of >29000 or 29120 (these two number are from memory since I can't >find my notes at the moment where I wrote down the two numbers. >It was either 29000 or 59000 but I'm pretty sure it was 29000). > >I was attracted to the emualtion pods because they looked like >they had never been used. All of the pins appeared to be straight >and intact. There was protective foam one each pod. > >What can you guys tell me about these? I'm thinking that without >the frame they are not very useful to me. Perhaps they're worth >something in trade? > >Thanks, > >Jon > > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu May 28 12:27:23 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: VAX 785 Backplane Schematic Message-ID: <13359311055.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Anyone have the printset describing the VAX 785 CPU backpanel? I'd be interested in a scan of it... ------- From engine at chac.org Thu May 28 12:33:21 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Processing data in blocks In-Reply-To: <01IXKBC4U1SMAEW4ZG@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980528103321.00fb2e00@pop.batnet.com> At 10:42 5/28/98 -0700, Roger wrote: >Wordstar on the Otrona Attache was also very WYSIWYG because the Otrona >could do any video attribute Wordstar ever dreamed of.... Nice keyboard, too. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 28 12:50:29 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: HP terminals Re: Processing data in blocks In-Reply-To: <199805280554.WAA27968@saul4.u.washington.edu> References: <199805280438.VAA18888@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980528125029.4917ea42@intellistar.net> At 10:54 PM 5/27/98 -0700, you wrote: > >One thing I realized from the exposure (and have since read about) is that the >local editing features are usually horribly limited, _and_ they're impossible >to extend unless you modify the hardware. What kind of local editing do the >HP terminals provide? FWIW I found a URL a while back that described an HP terminal that would let you open up to four(?) windows on each terminal and you could cut and paste between windows. I'll post the URL if I can find it again. Joe PS I just found the URL, it's no longer available but the terminal was an HP-2626A. From stephen.j.gabaly at lmco.com Thu May 28 13:45:13 1998 From: stephen.j.gabaly at lmco.com (Gabaly, Stephen J) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Steve Wozniak home page Message-ID: <815D4FDDF9F6D011A5ED0000F804A87594C11B@emss04m04.cs.lmco.com> For anyone that's interested Steve Wozniak has a home page at www.woz.org . He has a digital camera in his office which you can point and zoom to see what he is up too, just click on the wozcam button. His email address is also there, I have emailed him several times about questions I had on the early days of Apple, he responded quickly (few minutes). Generally if he can answer the question off the top of his head, he will, otherwise he will politely tell you he is too busy. I think I have used up my quota of questions for the year so perhaps someone on this discussion group can organized a question of the month so he won't get bombarded with a hundred questions and change his email address. Just a thought. steve From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 28 13:49:56 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Processing data in blocks Message-ID: <199805281849.AA12254@world.std.com> Wordstar on the Otrona Attache was also very WYSIWYG because the Otrona <>could do any video attribute Wordstar ever dreamed of.... < Message-ID: On Thu, 28 May 1998, Gabaly, Stephen J wrote: > For anyone that's interested Steve Wozniak has a home page at > www.woz.org . He has a digital camera in his office > which you can point and zoom to see what he is up too, just click on the Cool. A worthy competitor to JennyCam. > wozcam button. His email address is also there, I have emailed him several > times about questions I had on the early days of Apple, he responded quickly > (few minutes). Generally if he can answer the question off the top of his > head, he will, otherwise he will politely tell you he is too busy. I think I > have used up my quota of questions for the year so perhaps someone on this > discussion group can organized a question of the month so he won't get > bombarded with a hundred questions and change his email address. Just a > thought. How about posting the results to the list? -- Doug From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu May 28 10:12:45 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Ressurecting FDDs (was Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pa In-Reply-To: References: <005701bd8929$9a24a840$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> from "Desie Hay" at May 27, 98 02:40:39 pm Message-ID: <199805281911.PAA27306@smtp.interlog.com> On 27 May 98 at 20:16, Tony Duell wrote: > > oh well with my 5150 it has two FH IBM drives in i and they both seem to be > > dead, Ive replaced the controllor card check the dips, > > checked power output, it seems here in Austrlaia these drives are almost > > impossable to get a hold of...... > > I have schematics for these drives (in the IBM O&A TechRef) and the Tandy > instructions for aligning the single-sided version. So I think we can get > them working. > > You say they're 'dead'. How dead? Why you access them, does the motor > start. Does the spindle rotate? Does the head carriage move to track 0 > when you first boot up the machine (turn off, move the head towards the > spindle, turn on). Does the LED come on? > > Or do they seem to work, and go through all the motions, but give you > data errors? > > -tony On a related note, I have 3 Atari STs all with failed fdds. Any tips on re-alligning these with-out the rather expensive reallign equipment ? Quite a while ago I was able to revive another one by trial and error ,fiddling with the head placement. More blind luck than skill. I've heard that most 3 1/2 fdds will work by reversing the P-S connecter and I picked up a 720k Mitsumi to that end recently to no avail. So rather than throwing away more money I would like to try fixing the ones I have first. I have some test equipment but unfortunately my old Dumont tube scope died the good death. (impossible to find neon current limiter). Any suggestions ? ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu May 28 16:36:14 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: SUN equipment (x-post) Message-ID: <356DD8CE.1E1E26E2@bbtel.com> Pulled this from the web, and I know there are Sun users that might be interested in these. Email Pat direct if interested... ................................................................................................................................ Pat Stakem Columbia, Md - Wednesday, May 27, 1998 at 12:18:02 I have 5-10 spare Sun workstation video monitor cables (about 1 meter long, and 13w3 standard). also, 5-10 spare type 4 keyboards, with optical mice. email me if interested. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Thu May 28 16:38:51 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Help identify this not-so-classic board Message-ID: <199805282138.RAA28096@shell.monmouth.com> I'm trying to find some info about an IBM ISA SCSI board which has the following part number etched onto it 75H8895. This group seems to have the most diverse resources of any I've seen so I figured I'd give it a try and hope someone's got some info. Any info on this not too classic board would be appreciated. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From fmc at reanimators.org Thu May 28 17:16:55 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Processing data in blocks In-Reply-To: Roger Ivie's message of Thu, 28 May 1998 10:42:15 -0700 (MST) References: <01IXKBC4U1SMAEW4ZG@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <199805282216.PAA22109@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Roger Ivie wrote: > Wordstar on the Otrona Attache was also very WYSIWYG because the Otrona > could do any video attribute Wordstar every dreamed of: italics, underline, > strikethrough, bold, etc. See what happens on this list? If you aren't careful, you can learn something new every day! I stand corrected; I used Wordstar on less-capable video. And now I'm wondering whether I could get Wordstar on the HP150 to do this sort of thing.... -Frank McConnell From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu May 28 17:36:54 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Help identify this not-so-classic board Message-ID: <6e8b8478.356de707@aol.com> I searched and came up blank! is that the part number or fru number? are you sure thats the board number, or just a number for one of the components? In a message dated 98-05-28 17:41:47 EDT, you write: << trying to find some info about an IBM ISA SCSI board which has the following part number etched onto it 75H8895. This group seems to have the most diverse resources of any I've seen so I figured I'd give it a try and hope someone's got some info. Any info on this not too classic board would be appreciated. >> From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 28 17:43:02 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Processing data in blocks In-Reply-To: <199805282216.PAA22109@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <01IXKBC4U1SMAEW4ZG@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980528174302.303fbc64@intellistar.net> At 03:16 PM 5/28/98 -0700, you wrote: >Roger Ivie wrote: >> Wordstar on the Otrona Attache was also very WYSIWYG because the Otrona >> could do any video attribute Wordstar every dreamed of: italics, underline, >> strikethrough, bold, etc. > >See what happens on this list? If you aren't careful, you can learn >something new every day! > >I stand corrected; I used Wordstar on less-capable video. And now >I'm wondering whether I could get Wordstar on the HP150 to do this >sort of thing.... Good question. I have a couple of 150s and I have WS for the 150 but my disks have bit rot :-( Joe From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu May 28 18:50:58 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Processing data in blocks Message-ID: <01IXKO7NOLGIAEVXUW@cc.usu.edu> From: Joe > Good question. I have a couple of 150s and I have WS for the 150 but my > disks have bit rot :-( Last time I was in Sunnyvale, CA I found a pile of WordStar 3.24 distribution kits at Weird Stuff Warehouse. I payed (IIRC) $2 for the one I wagged off. There were several other copies. They're marked "CP/M-86 or MS-DOS" or somesuch only because it's not obvious from the documentation which version it is; the one I bought is for MS-DOS and I presume the remaining ones are as well. I picked up a copy of Desqview/X there, too. It's a good thing I don't live in Silicon Valley; Weird Stuff Warehouse would get all my money. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 28 14:58:40 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: <356CC457.BC1782CF@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at May 27, 98 09:56:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1277 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980528/b9242902/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu May 28 18:13:17 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Processing data in blocks Message-ID: <19980528231317.15622.qmail@hotmail.com> So, indeed, you're talking about a keyboard buffer, only intelligent and on a much larger scale. Or multiprocessing. >> Back when I asked about the HP 3000, someone mentioned that it >> processed data in blocks. What exactly does that mean? How does it >> work? >I think the comment you're talking about was directly related to >HP3000 full screen editors; these generally need a HP terminal >that's capable of block-mode operations. This means that >the terminal is capable of simple on-screen editing tasks by itself, >and transmits a bunch of changes to the computer only when the >computer needs to ask for the accumulated changes. > >This is very different than the mindset in the microcomputer and Unix >world, where it is expected that the main CPU will want to devote >attention to each and every keystroke typed by every user, and then >the main CPU will devote all its effort (for a little while) to >echoing this single character. This simply isn't the way >things are done on mainframes and "heavy-duty" mincomputer OS's. > >Tim. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 28 18:18:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Ressurecting FDDs (was Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pa In-Reply-To: <199805281911.PAA27306@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at May 28, 98 03:12:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1691 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980529/0e350a19/attachment.ksh From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Thu May 28 19:30:32 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Help identify this not-so-classic board In-Reply-To: <6e8b8478.356de707@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at May 28, 98 06:36:54 pm Message-ID: <199805290030.UAA15160@shell.monmouth.com> > I searched and came up blank! is that the part number or fru number? are you > sure thats the board number, or just a number for one of the components? > > << trying to find some info about an IBM ISA SCSI board which has > the following part number etched onto it 75H8895. That's the board etch or part number. Surplus Direct's selling 'em for $19.00. The one I have is 75H8895 (I think...) The only info I could find on it follows from altavista and the guy who posted it even works in the same group at Lucent (at a different location)... Bill > From rmabbot@lucent.comm (Rich Abbot) > Organization Lucent Technologies > Date Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:4:28 GMT > Newsgroups comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.periphs.scsi > Message-ID <34f4ab53.809548198@nntpa.cb.lucent.com> > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howdy all, > > I recently purchased two IBM SCSI cards from Surplus Direct. I've > seen a lot of controller cards in my time, but these are beaucoup > weird. Why? > > - no onboard BIOS > - no internal 50-pin header, only an external Centronics-50 > - unusual onboard parts (more below) > - no documentation of any kind > The unusual parts are: a power connector labelled JP3 which > is identical to the plastic 4-pin power connector commonly > found on disk drives; a momentary switch S1; an unusual > 10-pin data connector labelled J4; and a large wirewound > power resistor (!). > > The rest of the story goes as you would imagine. Called > SurplusDirect, they read the catalog to me, no additional > information. Called IBM, never heard of it, must be too > old to be in the database. > > The part number on the board is 75H8895. The largest > chip is an Altera PLD device, an EPM032. > > If anyone has made use of this card, I'd love to hear about it. > I am reluctant to hook it up to any of my SCSI stuff unless I > know tidbits like how that power connector JP3 is used. > > Thanks in advance for any information! > > Rich > +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu May 28 19:55:06 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: 20 years of BYTE Message-ID: <19980529005506.25503.qmail@hotmail.com> I took out from the library a sort of collection: 20 years of byte with some historic articles, ads ,etc. from BYTE's point of view in 1994. I liked the timeline, but the articles are very boring and technical. One of the IBM ads says,"The IBM Personal Computer starts at less than $1600 for a system that, with the addition of one simple device, hooks up to your home TV and uses your audio cassette recorder" (1982:1p61). Would this one device be a TRS-80? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu May 28 20:00:16 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Coleco and Sensation Message-ID: <19980529010016.5030.qmail@hotmail.com> Could someone describe to me the Colecovision family entertainment system? It's a dual cassette deck with expansion ports, cartridge ports, a phone jack, and 9-pin ports. Processor? RAM? Also, I saw a Tandy Sensation (I think) system. Not quite classic, it's and MPC 1 machine, looks like a DECpc. Has anyone known it? Lastly, I saw an Apple //c setup guide. Why does it say only to use the computer propped up by the handle? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From djenner at halcyon.com Thu May 28 20:05:30 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: 20 years of BYTE References: <19980529005506.25503.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <356E09DA.F3B7824F@halcyon.com> The rumor is, by the way, that July, 1998, is likely to be the last issue of Byte. Apparently, 90% of the Byte staff was dismissed today. Max Eskin wrote: > > I took out from the library a sort of collection: 20 years of byte > with some historic articles, ads ,etc. from BYTE's point of view in > 1994. I liked the timeline, but the articles are very boring and > technical. One of the IBM ads says,"The IBM Personal Computer starts > at less than $1600 for a system that, with the addition of one simple > device, hooks up to your home TV and uses your audio cassette > recorder" (1982:1p61). Would this one device be a TRS-80? > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From adept at mcs.com Thu May 28 20:15:29 1998 From: adept at mcs.com (The Adept) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Coleco and Sensation References: <19980529010016.5030.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <356E0C31.719F2008@mcs.com> Are you referring to the ADAM? If so, it works in conjunction with a ColecoVision game unit (the game unit provides the video functions and 18K(?) or so of video ram). My (boxed!) ADAM has the base unit which has a single cassette deck (with room for two), 64K of ram standard (for a total of 82K when live, "the most of any home computer" :), it also has a keyboard that uses a phone jack type cable, a colecovision type controller (in white) and a printer (NLQ), also a built in word processor. If you want the full details, I'll pull the thing out of the attic and get more specific. Cheers, Dan Max Eskin wrote: > Could someone describe to me the Colecovision family entertainment > system? It's a dual cassette deck with expansion ports, cartridge > ports, a phone jack, and 9-pin ports. Processor? RAM? > > Also, I saw a Tandy Sensation (I think) system. Not quite classic, > it's and MPC 1 machine, looks like a DECpc. Has anyone known it? > > Lastly, I saw an Apple //c setup guide. Why does it say only to use > the computer propped up by the handle? > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From icyblackhand at hotmail.com Thu May 28 20:18:32 1998 From: icyblackhand at hotmail.com (Michael Sheflin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Fwd: Coleco and Sensation Message-ID: <19980529011836.9574.qmail@hotmail.com> I believe it wants you to use the \\c propped up on the handle because it will air out better. They didn't have as good fans as they do now in those days. I'm not sure though. That computer is before my time (i'm only 12). I'll check in my \\c manual though. mike From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu May 28 20:45:53 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Coleco and Sensation Message-ID: <684e51ec.356e1352@aol.com> In a message dated 98-05-28 21:20:23 EDT, you write: << I believe it wants you to use the \\c propped up on the handle because it will air out better. They didn't have as good fans as they do now in those days. I'm not sure though. That computer is before my time (i'm only 12). I'll check in my \\c manual though. mike >> because the //c was compact and had more capabilities in it than the //e, i guess it runs much hotter so propping it up by the handle allows more air access for cooling. i never had a problem with it though. i thought the pivoting handle was just to tilt the keyboard for certain typists. david From desieh at southcom.com.au Thu May 28 20:58:52 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old Message-ID: <004901bd8aa5$554a1fc0$ee173ccb@mr-ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 1:58 Subject: Re: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old >At 02:40 PM 5/27/98 +1000, you wrote: >Desie, > > Let me know if you want some. There's plenty of them here in the trift >stores. I can buy the entire PC for about $5. If you want some drives and >are willing to pay the cost ($5) and shipping (?), I'll get some for you. > > Joe > > >> >>oh well with my 5150 it has two FH IBM drives in i and they both seem to be >>dead, Ive replaced the controllor card check the dips, >>checked power output, it seems here in Austrlaia these drives are almost >>impossable to get a hold of...... >> >> >> >> > email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm where abouts do you live?? to ship from anywhere other than within Austrlaia would cost a small furtune considering the weight of a IBM PC From desieh at southcom.com.au Thu May 28 20:59:52 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old Message-ID: <005001bd8aa5$9dcdf780$ee173ccb@mr-ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 8:31 Subject: Re: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old >> oh well with my 5150 it has two FH IBM drives in i and they both seem to be >> dead, Ive replaced the controllor card check the dips, >> checked power output, it seems here in Austrlaia these drives are almost >> impossable to get a hold of...... > >I have schematics for these drives (in the IBM O&A TechRef) and the Tandy >instructions for aligning the single-sided version. So I think we can get >them working. > >You say they're 'dead'. How dead? Why you access them, does the motor >start. Does the spindle rotate? Does the head carriage move to track 0 >when you first boot up the machine (turn off, move the head towards the >spindle, turn on). Does the LED come on? > >Or do they seem to work, and go through all the motions, but give you >data errors? > >> >> >> >> > >-tony > email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm I get nothing out of them, no motor spin up, no led, no nothing................... From desieh at southcom.com.au Thu May 28 21:03:58 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Compaq Portable in OZ????? Message-ID: <007b01bd8aa6$0b2dd840$ee173ccb@mr-ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Adam Jenkins To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 12:04 Subject: Re: Compaq Portable in OZ????? > >>anyone on this list in OZ have a original Compaq Portable they want to >>sell/trade or give away?? > >Are you still after one? What are you after generally? I might have a >lead on one, but I am inclined to keep my own unless it is for something >urgent. :) > >Adam. > > email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm Im looking for a original Compaq Portable the first one, (1981-1982) I have 2 x Compaq Portable IIs and I love them............. From billm at teleport.com Thu May 28 21:32:25 1998 From: billm at teleport.com (Bill Marx) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Looking for Osborne I or Executive In-Reply-To: <01bd833d$cc54dfc0$531b85ce@oemcomputer> from "Joe & Avery" at May 19, 98 11:50:07 am Message-ID: <199805290232.TAA10499@user2.teleport.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 258 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980528/56633516/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu May 28 21:47:39 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Locking RL-02 Heads Message-ID: Quick question, how does one make sure the heads of a RL-02 drive are locked? I'm supposed to be picking one up this weekend (mainly for the Q-Bus controller and diskpacks). I want to make sure I transport it correctly since I might need it for my PDP-11/44 (still don't know the state of it's drives. On another note, anyone have any recommendations on where to get some RAM boards for a /44? Once I have the packs that will be the only thing I'll need (assuming everything works). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 28 21:17:24 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: 20 years of BYTE In-Reply-To: <356E09DA.F3B7824F@halcyon.com> References: <19980529005506.25503.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980528211724.5eff3696@intellistar.net> At 06:05 PM 5/28/98 -0700, you wrote: >The rumor is, by the way, that July, 1998, is likely to be the last >issue of Byte. Apparently, 90% of the Byte staff was dismissed today. > It's no loss IMO. Byte hasn't been worth the paper it was printed on for a looonnggg time. The same thing happened to Popular Electronics, another of good OLD magazines. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 28 21:15:00 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: <004901bd8aa5$554a1fc0$ee173ccb@mr-ibm> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980528211500.5eff2fd2@intellistar.net> I'm in Orlando, Florida, right across town from Dismal World. I expected you'd just want the drives but I'll ship the whole thing if you want it. Do you know anyone coming here on vacation? You could get them to bring one back for you. Joe At 11:58 AM 5/29/98 +1000, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 1:58 >Subject: Re: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old > > >>At 02:40 PM 5/27/98 +1000, you wrote: >>Desie, >> >> Let me know if you want some. There's plenty of them here in the trift >>stores. I can buy the entire PC for about $5. If you want some drives and >>are willing to pay the cost ($5) and shipping (?), I'll get some for you. >> >> Joe >> >> >>> >>>oh well with my 5150 it has two FH IBM drives in i and they both seem to >be >>>dead, Ive replaced the controllor card check the dips, >>>checked power output, it seems here in Austrlaia these drives are almost >>>impossable to get a hold of...... >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >email: desieh@southcom.com.au > desieh@bigfoot.com > museum_curator@hotmail.com >Apple Lisa Web Page: >http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm > > >where abouts do you live?? >to ship from anywhere other than within Austrlaia would cost a small furtune >considering the weight of a IBM PC > > > From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu May 28 22:03:23 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Locking RL-02 Heads In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980528200323.006fd988@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Zane: At 07:47 PM 98/05/28 -0700, you wrote: >Quick question, how does one make sure the heads of a RL-02 drive are >locked? I'm supposed to be picking one up this weekend (mainly for the >Q-Bus controller and diskpacks). I want to make sure I transport it >correctly since I might need it for my PDP-11/44 (still don't know the >state of it's drives. There's a little locking clip inside the drive assembly that holds the heads in place mechanically. Just flip it over the end of the retracted head assembly and tighten it with a screwdriver. Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From fmc at reanimators.org Thu May 28 21:55:15 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Processing data in blocks In-Reply-To: "Max Eskin"'s message of Thu, 28 May 1998 16:13:17 PDT References: <19980528231317.15622.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199805290255.TAA00737@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Max Eskin" wrote: > So, indeed, you're talking about a keyboard buffer, only intelligent > and on a much larger scale. Or multiprocessing. Maybe Tim is, but on reflection (no pun) I'm not. The terminal acts as a buffer for the data, not for the keyboard. The keyboard is used to make changes to the data in the buffer and initiate the transfer of the changed data back to the 3000. The keystrokes themselves don't get sent to the 3000, only the edited data. -Frank McConnell From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Thu May 28 18:17:26 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: OT: Anyone got parts for Everex Stepnote 486DX4 series? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199805290312.XAA23185@mail.cgocable.net> Recently aquired a notebook and repaired it successfully so I go on this quest. Two parts in particular for Stepnote 486DX4 series. - HD caddy with that plug thingee on it. - Diplay of any kind. This one I have has 2 things: blown ic's and cracked screen. The video controller on that motherboard is fine! I tested this on external monitor. If I can get it with whole notebook (motherboard or something bad but display is good, would be good too. If someone can contact the Everex directly or by email, I would appreciate your help because I tried a email there. I'm waiting for a response from there for HD caddy. I would not try the phone route because I live in Canada and sometimes some lines get blocked even it's 800 line. :-( ) If you need more info, I can supply the specifics. Thanks! now, back to chitterings of oldie computers... Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 28 22:32:37 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:10 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey Message-ID: <199805290332.AA20498@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980528225225.5eff60f6@intellistar.net> At 11:32 PM 5/28/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >OS9, I've heard a little about it but never seen it. Is it available? Allison, I know where there's a box and manual. I'll check and see if the disk is there too. Joe From mor at crl.com Thu May 28 21:59:01 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: Coleco and Sensation References: <19980529010016.5030.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <356E2475.4BD0FCEA@crl.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > Could someone describe to me the Colecovision family entertainment > system? It's a dual cassette deck with expansion ports, cartridge > ports, a phone jack, and 9-pin ports. Processor? RAM? Sounds like you're talking about the ADAM. It's a Z80 based computer with 64K in it. There was a disk drive option but it's rarely seen in the wild. One of the DB-9 connectors is actually the power input, which comes from the printer. If you don't have the printer you'll need to hack +5, -5, and +12 onto the right pins. I've done that and can get you the pinout if you need it. Though this system supposedly has a version of CP/M (never seen it) and some decent (certainly not great) apps available, the main reason to muck with it is that you can play Colecovision video games on it. Ladybug rocks! -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/tps/ From dastar at wco.com Fri May 29 00:59:25 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: Coleco and Sensation In-Reply-To: <19980529010016.5030.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 May 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Lastly, I saw an Apple //c setup guide. Why does it say only to use > the computer propped up by the handle? Most likely to promote air flow. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From ddameron at earthlink.net Fri May 29 02:50:53 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: my first computer, game of "life" Message-ID: <199805290750.AAA20496@italy.it.earthlink.net> I first discovered digital logic and TTL IC's about 1973, and wanted to build something not trivial with them. The project I chose was John Conway's game of "life" as described in Martin Gardner's Mathematical Games in "Scientific American" I ending using a 32x32 element grid using 2 (then expensive!) 2102 rams (No A or other suffix then) I would calculate one generation from one ram and write to the other. I used about a 60kHz clock and 74193 counters to generate the addresses. The clock went to a decade counter and the first 8 states generated +/- x and y clocks to visit the 8 neighbors of a given cell. If the cell was a "1", another counter was incremented, number of neighbors. The 9'th state was at the given cell. The rule was then used: Neighbors =2 and cell active, or Neighbors = 3, then the new cell was active, otherwise it was not. The 10'th clock wrote the cell to the new generation (the other ram). Thus 10 clock cycles were needed for each cell, or 10240 for each generation. This was much faster than a later 4MHz Z-80 program! I displayed the results on a 5 inch oscilloscope, using 555 timers with PNP transistor current sources to charge the timing capacitor, for x and y ramp or deflection waveforms. This was straight out of a National Semiconductor databook. The refresh rate was about 60Hz. The "load" signals for the 74193's was used to write data into locations from address switches. Finally 3 7490's and 7447's displayed the generation number on 7 segment displays. It was fun to watch the generations flash by. The total number of IC's was about 35 + 6 for the generation counter. -Dave From archive at navix.net Fri May 29 02:59:49 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor & Deanna Wynn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: old Toshiba laptop help (on topic??) Message-ID: <356E6AF4.81245A2F@navix.net> Hi: I just picked up an older style laptop that I need some hlp on. It is a Toshiba T2200SX laptop. It is a 386 I believe, 3.5" floppy drive, 80 something meg hard drive, black and white LCD VGA display running Windows 3.1. Here's what I am looking for, or at least some advice on where to direct this help request to. 1) I need a battery for this unit. I have the power supply, but the battery with it won't charge. The battery I have is made by Toshiba and is model # PA2404U. Please let me know if you have one of these or know where I could find one! 2) Modem. It has a 2400 baud modem with it. It is of the more modern style (I think) in that the modem is a small card that inserts in the side. It is labeled T24M - Modem - 2400 BPS - MNP5. On the back is PC22-T24M. Here's the problem... there is a small 'port' that supposedly is used for a special cable to connect the phone line to. It doesn'e have the cable for the modem to the phone line. I am interested in knowing where I may be able to find this special cable to be able to use this modem. Also curious to know if the model of laptop will handle new laptop modems. I know that many modern laptops use this type of modem (slide in card), and would be willing to just get a new modem if I can't find this special cable for this particular modem. 3) Additional memory: It has 2 meg of RAM internally. In addition, there is a 2 meg card, similar to the modem, that slides in on the opposite side of the laptop. It is labeled Enhance Memory Products, Inc., TMC02 2MB -- my question is: can I add additional memory... a larger card? Are newer laptop memory cards compatible with this computer Anyway help would be greatly appreciated. If you have some of the above items, please let me know and include the price you're willing to sell it for. Also, a pointer to a better place to take this request to (is there such a place? :-) would also be much appreciated! Thanks, CORD COSLOR -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\| From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Fri May 29 03:30:13 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: IBM Techref's available? Message-ID: Hi, Are technical references for IBM XT's / 286 machines avaialbe from IBM still? If so then I assume that they charge quite a bit of money for them! If you can't get them any longer, then has anyone scanned any of the information and stuck it on the 'net anywhere? (Schematics are one thing, I remember downloading lots of info on various things such as DMA controller specs etc. a few years ago, and theamount of conflicting information out there made it rather difficult to get anywhere!! :) ta Jules From nitedriver at webtv.net Fri May 29 05:03:18 1998 From: nitedriver at webtv.net (John Troxell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey Message-ID: <199805291003.DAA24644@mailtod-112.iap.bryant.webtv.net> For data on TRS-80 & LDOS try: http://www.kjsl.com/trs80/ then link to Tim Mann. Regards, JT From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 29 06:53:59 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: old Toshiba laptop help (on topic??) In-Reply-To: <356E6AF4.81245A2F@navix.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980529065359.47dfb9ea@intellistar.net> At 12:59 AM 5/29/98 -0700, you wrote: >Hi: > >I just picked up an older style laptop that I need some hlp on. It is >a Toshiba T2200SX laptop. It is a 386 I believe, 3.5" floppy drive, >80 something meg hard drive, black and white LCD VGA display running >Windows 3.1. Here's what I am looking for, or at least some advice on >where to direct this help request to. > >1) I need a battery for this unit. I have the power supply, but the >battery with it won't charge. The battery I have is made by Toshiba >and is model # PA2404U. Please let me know if you have one of these >or know where I could find one! Cord, Your chances of finding another battery are slim. Even if you find one it will be old and probably won't last long. My suggestion is to take it to one of the battery places that rebuild batteries and have them replace the cells in your old battery. There is a place in Sanford, Florida that I have used a lot and that I'm very happy with. Their name is TNR, I don't have their phone number handy but you can get it from directory info. They use good quality batteries so their batteries will usually last a lot longer than the original ones since the OEMs usually use the cheapest junk they can find. Joe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri May 29 08:57:42 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: Locking RL-02 Heads In-Reply-To: <199805290337.AA22970@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at May 28, 98 11:37:07 pm Message-ID: <9805291257.AA04225@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 923 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980529/d8f632b1/attachment.ksh From bill.sheehan at stoneweb.com Fri May 29 07:58:56 1998 From: bill.sheehan at stoneweb.com (bill.sheehan@stoneweb.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: old Toshiba laptop help (on topic??) Message-ID: <85256613.00471B4B.00@BOS-MTA01.SWEC.COM> I'm now on my fourth set of batteries for Toby-San, my T1000. The latest set was purchased from 1-800-Batteries, a company that seems to have every size and style of laptop and camera battery ever dreamed of. You can find them on the web at http://www.800batteries.com. -- BIll Sheehan Joe on 05/29/98 02:53:59 AM Please respond to classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" cc: (bcc: Bill Sheehan/Corporate/SWEC) Subject: Re: old Toshiba laptop help (on topic??) At 12:59 AM 5/29/98 -0700, you wrote: >Hi: > >I just picked up an older style laptop that I need some hlp on. It is >a Toshiba T2200SX laptop. It is a 386 I believe, 3.5" floppy drive, >80 something meg hard drive, black and white LCD VGA display running >Windows 3.1. Here's what I am looking for, or at least some advice on >where to direct this help request to. > >1) I need a battery for this unit. I have the power supply, but the >battery with it won't charge. The battery I have is made by Toshiba >and is model # PA2404U. Please let me know if you have one of these >or know where I could find one! Cord, Your chances of finding another battery are slim. Even if you find one it will be old and probably won't last long. My suggestion is to take it to one of the battery places that rebuild batteries and have them replace the cells in your old battery. There is a place in Sanford, Florida that I have used a lot and that I'm very happy with. Their name is TNR, I don't have their phone number handy but you can get it from directory info. They use good quality batteries so their batteries will usually last a lot longer than the original ones since the OEMs usually use the cheapest junk they can find. Joe From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri May 29 08:16:35 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: PS/2 items FS/Trade Message-ID: <356EB533.D52C5ED3@bbtel.com> I have about half a dozen PS/2 model 55SX machines that I need to sell or trade. They're all in excellent working condition with hard drive, floppy drive, built in video/com/lpt/mouse ports. Can accept up to 16mb of ram and runs a 386SX-16 processor. These are tested and in good physical and working condition. Just add SIMMs, keyboard, mouse and monitor. Great replacement for a flaky unit or to add a machine for the kids. All have MS-DOS 6.2 on the hard drive. Reference/Setup disk included. Asking $30 each plus shipping. The Dallas realtime clock chip on the board or even the floppy drive are worth that alone. Trades of other IBM ISA, MCA or VLB equipment will be considered. I also have 55SX motherboards in great condition for $10 each plus shipping. Shipped in foam padded mailer with setup/reference disk. Just open your dead machine and replace the board. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From adept at Mcs.Net Fri May 29 09:02:03 1998 From: adept at Mcs.Net (The Adept) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: Coleco and Sensation In-Reply-To: <356E2475.4BD0FCEA@crl.com> Message-ID: I just _thought_ I had a CPM2.2 for the Adam off Ebay (there was a set of 14 Adam tapes (Digital Data Packs) for auction and one of them was a CPM/assembler tape) Cheers Dan On Thu, 28 May 1998, Greg Troutman wrote: > Max Eskin wrote: > > > > Could someone describe to me the Colecovision family entertainment > > system? It's a dual cassette deck with expansion ports, cartridge > > ports, a phone jack, and 9-pin ports. Processor? RAM? > > Sounds like you're talking about the ADAM. It's a Z80 based computer > with 64K in it. There was a disk drive option but it's rarely seen in > the wild. One of the DB-9 connectors is actually the power input, which > comes from the printer. If you don't have the printer you'll need to > hack +5, -5, and +12 onto the right pins. I've done that and can get > you the pinout if you need it. Though this system supposedly has a > version of CP/M (never seen it) and some decent (certainly not great) > apps available, the main reason to muck with it is that you can play > Colecovision video games on it. Ladybug rocks! > > -- > mor@crl.com > http://www.crl.com/~mor/tps/ > From kyrrin at jps.net Fri May 29 09:23:33 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: FW: FREE VAX3900! Message-ID: <356ec492.30308721@smtp.wa.jps.net> Dang... it's ads like this that make me wish, sometimes, that I were a lot closer to the midwest.... Anyway... if you're in a better position than me, and want to give a good home to a darn good VAXen (definitely late-model), get in touch with this guy. -=-=- -=-=- Message-ID: <356CD657.852FEBD4@sysman-inc.com> Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:13:27 -0500 From: "Mark E. Levy" Reply-To: levy@sysman-inc.com Organization: System Management Associates, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,misc.computers.forsale Subject: VAX 3900 Free for the taking Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.100.242.150 Lines: 24 Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!chicago-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.dls.net!209.100.242.150 Xref: blushng.jps.net comp.os.vms:2601 comp.sys.dec:928 misc.computers.forsale:317 Available immediately: VAX 3900, 32Mb, no licenses. KDB50 Ethernet KLESI (2) RA90 (2) RA70 Emulex UC07 SCSI controller TU81+ Complete only. Removing any part diminishes the value of the rest, and I don't want to have to scrap it. 20 Miles north of Chicago. You pick it up or pay for shipping. Serious inquiries only. -- Mark E. Levy System Management Associates, Inc. OpenVMS, MacOS, Windows 95/NT, Networks levy@sysman-inc.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin {at} j

s d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From cfandt at servtech.com Fri May 29 09:16:39 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: 20 years of BYTE In-Reply-To: <356E09DA.F3B7824F@halcyon.com> References: <19980529005506.25503.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199805291424.OAA01995@cyber2.servtech.com> At 18:05 28-05-98 -0700, you wrote: >The rumor is, by the way, that July, 1998, is likely to be the last >issue of Byte. Apparently, 90% of the Byte staff was dismissed today. No rumor. Check out CNET's article: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,22532,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh >Max Eskin wrote: >> >> I took out from the library a sort of collection: 20 years of byte --snip-- Oh well, there goes the $$ that I paid recently to renew my subscription. Lately, the mag hasn't been quite what it once was. The Grand Olde Days back in the first 5 or 6 years or so were the best as far as most of us may be concerned I think. What was the other mag that Jerry Pournelle wrote a column for? -- Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 29 09:25:14 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: old Toshiba laptop help (on topic??) In-Reply-To: Joe "Re: old Toshiba laptop help (on topic??)" (May 29, 6:53) References: <3.0.1.16.19980529065359.47dfb9ea@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <9805291525.ZM8164@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 29, 6:53, Joe wrote: > Cord wrote: > >I just picked up an older style laptop that I need some hlp on. It is > >a Toshiba T2200SX laptop. > >1) I need a battery for this unit. I have the power supply, but the > >battery with it won't charge. > Your chances of finding another battery are slim. Even if you find one > it will be old and probably won't last long. My suggestion is to take it > to one of the battery places that rebuild batteries and have them replace > the cells in your old battery. If you can take the battery pack apart (separate it into single cells) in such a way that it could be re-assembled, all is not lost. The usual problem with NiCds is that internal crystal growth makes short circuits; the battery will show virtually 0V. If you force a sufficiently high current through the cell, it will often remove the short. However, the current needs to be very high, and has to be of short duration to avoid other damage. The way I do it, is to charge a large electrolytic capacitor up to 20V - 30V, connect one side to one end of a cell with a short thick wire, and touch ("flash") the other side to the other end with another short thick wire. The spark is usually fairly dramatic, so it's best to touch the wire to the terminals and not the case (lest the arc burn through it), and use eye protection. Repeat as required until the cell shows some reasonable voltage. Then put the cell through a full-charge/deep-discharge/full-charge cycle. I've resurrected quite a few NiCds with my 24V bench PSU and a 50,000mfd 30V electrolytic. BTW, inside a lot of laptop batteries, you'll find a small metal box in series with the cells. Don't throw it away; it's a thermal cutout intended to prevent excessive current flow. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From djenner at halcyon.com Fri May 29 10:12:24 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: old Toshiba laptop help (on topic??) References: <3.0.1.16.19980529065359.47dfb9ea@intellistar.net> <9805291525.ZM8164@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <356ED058.FF060969@halcyon.com> The problem is, the battery pack for this computer is Nickel Metal Hydride, not NiCad. Is there any process for "zapping" a NiMH battery like there is for NiCad? I've had good success with NiCad, but don't know what to do with the NiMH packs that are showing up in the "newer" old laptops. You could also rebuild the battery pack with NiMH cells. Would it be possible to use NiCad with the same voltage/current specs? The battery charger might not work? By the way, http://www.toshiba.com has a plethora of information about their old laptops. Some of the models, but not this one (T2200SX), have complete manuals downloadable. There are also diagnostic and setup disks. Dave Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On May 29, 6:53, Joe wrote: > > > Cord wrote: > > > >I just picked up an older style laptop that I need some hlp on. It is > > >a Toshiba T2200SX laptop. > > > >1) I need a battery for this unit. I have the power supply, but the > > >battery with it won't charge. > > > Your chances of finding another battery are slim. Even if you find one > > it will be old and probably won't last long. My suggestion is to take it > > to one of the battery places that rebuild batteries and have them replace > > the cells in your old battery. > > If you can take the battery pack apart (separate it into single cells) in > such a way that it could be re-assembled, all is not lost. > > The usual problem with NiCds is that internal crystal growth makes short > circuits; the battery will show virtually 0V. If you force a sufficiently > high current through the cell, it will often remove the short. However, > the current needs to be very high, and has to be of short duration to avoid > other damage. > > The way I do it, is to charge a large electrolytic capacitor up to 20V - > 30V, connect one side to one end of a cell with a short thick wire, and > touch ("flash") the other side to the other end with another short thick > wire. The spark is usually fairly dramatic, so it's best to touch the wire > to the terminals and not the case (lest the arc burn through it), and use > eye protection. Repeat as required until the cell shows some reasonable > voltage. > > Then put the cell through a full-charge/deep-discharge/full-charge cycle. > > I've resurrected quite a few NiCds with my 24V bench PSU and a 50,000mfd > 30V electrolytic. > > BTW, inside a lot of laptop batteries, you'll find a small metal box in > series with the cells. Don't throw it away; it's a thermal cutout intended > to prevent excessive current flow. > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 29 10:18:19 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: old Toshiba laptop help (on topic??) In-Reply-To: <9805291525.ZM8164@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> References: <3.0.1.16.19980529065359.47dfb9ea@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980529101819.564fecec@intellistar.net> At 02:25 PM 5/29/98 GMT, you wrote: >On May 29, 6:53, Joe wrote: > >> Cord wrote: > >> >I just picked up an older style laptop that I need some hlp on. It is >> >a Toshiba T2200SX laptop. > >> >1) I need a battery for this unit. I have the power supply, but the >> >battery with it won't charge. > >> Your chances of finding another battery are slim. Even if you find one >> it will be old and probably won't last long. My suggestion is to take it >> to one of the battery places that rebuild batteries and have them replace >> the cells in your old battery. > >If you can take the battery pack apart (separate it into single cells) in >such a way that it could be re-assembled, all is not lost. > >The usual problem with NiCds is that internal crystal growth makes short >circuits; the battery will show virtually 0V. If you force a sufficiently >high current through the cell, it will often remove the short. However, >the current needs to be very high, and has to be of short duration to avoid >other damage. > >The way I do it, is to charge a large electrolytic capacitor up to 20V - >30V, connect one side to one end of a cell with a short thick wire, and >touch ("flash") the other side to the other end with another short thick >wire. The spark is usually fairly dramatic, so it's best to touch the wire >to the terminals and not the case (lest the arc burn through it), and use >eye protection. Repeat as required until the cell shows some reasonable >voltage. > The problem with this is that the crystal growth puctures the separator membrain between the two electrodes. That usually usually ruins the cells. They may last for a short while but that's all. High current can also cause the cell vents to open and then the electrolyte leaks out and ruins what ever the batteries are in. Replacement batteries are cheap, it's not worth the risk IMO. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 29 10:35:18 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: old Toshiba laptop help (on topic??) In-Reply-To: <356ED058.FF060969@halcyon.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19980529065359.47dfb9ea@intellistar.net> <9805291525.ZM8164@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980529103518.47df5714@intellistar.net> At 08:12 AM 5/29/98 -0700, you wrote: >The problem is, the battery pack for this computer is Nickel Metal >Hydride, not NiCad. Is there any process for "zapping" a NiMH >battery like there is for NiCad? I've had good success with NiCad, >but don't know what to do with the NiMH packs that are showing up in >the "newer" old laptops. > >You could also rebuild the battery pack with NiMH cells. Would it be >possible to use NiCad with the same voltage/current specs? The battery >charger might not work? The battery manufacturers say that the batteries and chargers aren't interchangeable. A good battery rebuilder should be able to replace the original NiMH cells with new ones. Joe From archive at navix.net Fri May 29 11:19:23 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor & Deanna Wynn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: RS-232 port with modem? Message-ID: <356EE00A.AC7AB21C@navix.net> I have an old PC compatible computer and I also have a 14.4 Data/Fax modem that uses the RS-232 port with the cable. My question is: how can I get the two of them to work together. Can I use just a simple term program to log onto a Unix host? How do I tell the computer that I want it to check for the modem/phone line via the RS-232 port. My computer also has a 2400 baud modem that isn't in use. Thanks for any help! -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\| From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri May 29 10:46:22 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: 20 years of BYTE In-Reply-To: <356E09DA.F3B7824F@halcyon.com> References: <19980529005506.25503.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980529114622.006959a4@mail.wincom.net> At 06:05 PM 5/28/98 -0700, you wrote: >The rumor is, by the way, that July, 1998, is likely to be the last >issue of Byte. Apparently, 90% of the Byte staff was dismissed today. > >Max Eskin wrote: >> >> I took out from the library a sort of collection: 20 years of byte >> with some historic articles, ads ,etc. from BYTE's point of view in >> 1994. I liked the timeline, but the articles are very boring and >> technical. One of the IBM ads says,"The IBM Personal Computer starts >> at less than $1600 for a system that, with the addition of one simple >> device, hooks up to your home TV and uses your audio cassette >> recorder" (1982:1p61). Would this one device be a TRS-80? >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > Wonderful timing! I just renewed for two years. Charlie Fox From mor at crl.com Fri May 29 09:54:42 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: Coleco and Sensation References: Message-ID: <356ECC32.1DB99D16@crl.com> The Adept wrote: > > I just _thought_ I had a CPM2.2 for the Adam off Ebay (there was > a set of 14 Adam tapes (Digital Data Packs) for auction and one > of them was a CPM/assembler tape) This is one of countless reasons that I regard the ADAM as not much more than a cruel joke ;) CP/M on a cassette based system? And one which uses a non-standard cassette format (off-the-shelf tapes won't work)... How many CP/M apps were produced in "Digital Data Pack" format? Any? -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From cad at gamewood.net Fri May 29 11:09:26 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: old Toshiba laptop help (on topic??) References: <356E6AF4.81245A2F@navix.net> Message-ID: <356EDDB6.4BF0@gamewood.net> Cord Coslor & Deanna Wynn wrote: > > Hi: > > I just picked up an older style laptop that I need some hlp on. It is > a Toshiba T2200SX laptop. It is a 386 I believe, 3.5" floppy drive, > 80 something meg hard drive, black and white LCD VGA display running > Windows 3.1. Here's what I am looking for, or at least some advice on > where to direct this help request to. > > 1) I need a battery for this unit. I have the power supply, but the > battery with it won't charge. Hi Cord: Something to try!!! I read a report somewhere that a part of the 'aging process' for Nicads, involved the growth of crystals within the dielectric of the battery. This 'crystal growth' resulted in 'shorted cells'. These 'crystals' were very fragile physically, and a 'sharp rap' to the side of the battery, would often 'shatter' the crystals, which would enable the 'crystaline matter' to dissolve back into the electrolite solution of the battery. I have found that the 'life' of my 'ni-cads' _does_ seem to be improved by periodic 'drops to the floor' from a two or three foot height. Drop the battery (NOT the laptop), so that it hits the floor _flat_ on it's side. (If it doesn't help, you haven't lost anything.) Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri May 29 12:42:21 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: my first computer, game of "life" In-Reply-To: <199805290750.AAA20496@italy.it.earthlink.net> from "dave dameron" at May 29, 98 00:50:53 am Message-ID: <9805291642.AA03164@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1132 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980529/aeea4841/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri May 29 12:46:12 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: 20 years of BYTE In-Reply-To: <19980529005506.25503.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at May 28, 98 05:55:06 pm Message-ID: <9805291646.AA06508@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 728 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980529/9a9699a9/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 29 11:46:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: Coleco and Sensation Message-ID: <199805291646.AA06700@world.std.com> This is one of countless reasons that I regard the ADAM as not much more i live in the USA, but already have the PC mike From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri May 29 15:32:00 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: Mort boards... Message-ID: <13359606807.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> 2 datapath boards I was missing for the 785, almost the rest of the 780 (Missing only one board! The microsequencer... [M8235]...) Interesting toys include: A DZV11. Does anyone have the pinout for the distribution panel for this? And a SUMMUS 422-U controller. It has a SCSI-style plug at the top, it's a quad-height ?bus controller, and I'm told it wants a SCSI tape drive attached to it. The main chip says "442/UDT 4641" on top. A ROM is on here, it says "Viking U/B A4.4" Any info on this? ------- From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 29 15:49:58 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: my first computer, game of "life" In-Reply-To: <9805291642.AA03164@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <199805290750.AAA20496@italy.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980529154958.00b99380@pc> At 09:42 AM 5/29/98 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote: > >Fast FPGA's and clever logic lets modern folks do 600 x 800 (or larger) >at faster than 60Hz. Still, I'd prefer a board full of TTL :-). The Amiga's graphics blitter chip was smart enough to perform the operations of Life. According to some messages I found, on 7 Mhz 68000 machines, it would do 1.3 million cells/second. Someone else reported 19.8 generations/second for a 318 x 188 grid. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 29 16:09:08 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: New Toys and Moral Dilemmas In-Reply-To: <13359606807.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: I got two new toys today: 1) A body fat measuring computer. This is one of those things that runs current through you to test your resitance (the fatter you are, the higher your resistance (except your resistance to food, of course)). It's driven by a TRS-80 Model 100 bolted onto a contraption and mounted in a briefcase. Would you free the M100 or leave it as a (bad) example of a computer-contolled app? (Or leave it near the fridge as a subtle reminder of your pigosity?) 2) A Kurzweil "Personal Reader". This was very high-tech for its time: a portable card cage with hand-held scanner, OCR software in ROM, and a DEC-Talk module. Used by the blind to read books. I assume it has been obsoleted by much less expensive PC-based equipment, but would you offer to donate it to a center for the blind or keep it as a (good) example of a computer-controlled app? BTW, if any of you are blind or know somebody who is, I also have a Primax DataPen for the Mac w/o software. There is software available http://www.stepup.com.au/utility/datapen/executiv.htm to turn this thing into a book reader for the blind. I'd be happy to donate the (untested (I'm in a Mac-Free Zone)) DataPen to somebody who could use it as such. -- Doug From erd at infinet.com Fri May 29 16:40:10 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: my first computer, game of "life" In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980529154958.00b99380@pc> from "John Foust" at May 29, 98 03:49:58 pm Message-ID: <199805292140.RAA13112@user2.infinet.com> > The Amiga's graphics blitter chip was smart enough to perform > the operations of Life. According to some messages I found, > on 7 Mhz 68000 machines, it would do 1.3 million cells/second. > Someone else reported 19.8 generations/second for a 318 x 188 grid. I ran that, ages ago. Boy was that slick. The original is on an older Fish disk (c. 1987). A slightly updated version (c. 1994) that descends from that one is available at http://wuarchive.wustl.edu/pub/aminet/game/misc/fastlife-2.7.lha I'd give a URL for the 11-year-old version if I could, but I don't remember the FF disk number. On an unexpanded Amiga 1000, Tom Rokicki's hardware assisted version of Life would run so fast that it looked like a time-lapse of bacteria growing under a microscope. I had run versions of Life on the VAX at work (11/750 w/8Mb RAM, <20 users, VT100 @ 9600) and seen a generation every couple of seconds. It's especially telling because the underlying processor, the 11/750 is rated at .6 MIPS (VUPS), about the same as an 8Mhz 68000. The difference between a 318x188 grid at 20Hz and 80x25 at .5 to 1Hz is a) the blitter and b) the serial port speed, but to see one go, then the other, the change is several orders of magnitude (displaying 1.2x10e6 vs 1.2x10e1 cells per second). I suspect that if you had a framebuffer on the VAX, you could get within 1% of the Amiga's speed. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 29 13:44:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: 20 years of BYTE In-Reply-To: <19980529005506.25503.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at May 28, 98 05:55:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1037 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980529/15b999bb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 29 14:23:01 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: my first computer, game of "life" In-Reply-To: <199805290750.AAA20496@italy.it.earthlink.net> from "dave dameron" at May 29, 98 00:50:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1037 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980529/a7c8c24c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 29 14:02:11 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old In-Reply-To: <005001bd8aa5$9dcdf780$ee173ccb@mr-ibm> from "Desie Hay" at May 29, 98 11:59:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1875 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980529/637c7b7d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 29 14:09:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: <199805290332.AA20498@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at May 28, 98 11:32:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1826 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980529/16d962b5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 29 15:08:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: IBM Techref's available? In-Reply-To: from "Julian Richardson" at May 29, 98 09:30:13 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1109 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980529/f82daa7f/attachment.ksh From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Fri May 29 14:01:30 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: old Toshiba laptop help (on topic??) In-Reply-To: <356ED058.FF060969@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <199805292258.SAA10765@mail.cgocable.net> Big snip all that popping the cells with mega uF cap. That is very short term solution and risky. Runs chances of explosion. Best way is to get that pack rebuilt or new one. Cells themselves is most expensive part of whole thing. I priced several packs when I was reearching into rebuilding or new packs. Cost difference is not that remarkable between rebuilt and new packs even generic ones. And you won't know which pack is very easy to rebuild until broken open. Worst pack I tried to do rebuild on was LTE 386s/20. It has a strange mini circuit board that govern fast/trickling mode only with pack's 2 terminals also serving as same point for computer power form battery. That failed after 1 fast charge mode. It now stuck at trickling mode, takes 3 days to charge a 1700mAh 19.2V pack. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 29 13:40:51 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: 20 years of BYTE In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980528211724.5eff3696@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 28, 98 09:17:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 985 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980529/9784b8e5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 29 15:16:49 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: old Toshiba laptop help (on topic??) In-Reply-To: <9805291525.ZM8164@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 29, 98 02:25:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2559 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980529/c0f5171c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 29 18:09:42 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: New Toys and Moral Dilemmas In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at May 29, 98 04:09:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1064 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980530/e64fc1eb/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 29 19:36:38 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: New Toys and Moral Dilemmas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 30 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > 1) A body fat measuring computer. This is one of those things that runs > > current through you to test your resitance (the fatter you are, the higher > > your resistance (except your resistance to food, of course)). It's driven > > Hey, does that mean High Mass Hobbyists (tm) like myself are less likely > to get killed by high voltages? Higher resistance, lower current and all > that :-) No, but you will have a more appetizing aroma after you're done cooking :-) -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 29 19:48:23 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:11 2005 Subject: What is it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Somebody outbid me in the final seconds for this thing: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=15344547 My guess was that it might be a "TV Typewriter", hopefully 8008-based, but now I'll never know. Anybody want to venture a guess? -- Doug From oboissea at club-internet.fr Fri May 29 19:59:32 1998 From: oboissea at club-internet.fr (Tara) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Contact Message-ID: <356F59F4.71512D7D@club-internet.fr> Is there a list or a forum for those who collect classic micro-computers ? please help me. Thank you. Olivier BOISSEAU oboissea@club-internet.fr From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 29 20:22:34 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: EC-1 (was Re: Re[2]: Computer Values) In-Reply-To: <1998May19.111628.1767.104534@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 May 1998, Marty wrote: > I have a Heathkit EC-1 analog computer in operational condition with > the patch cables, assortment of caps and resistors plus the operating > manual. I have entertained selling this (robbing Peter to pay Paul) to > help fund a 1939 pre-war television acquisition. A dilemma. Should I > part with the EC-1 I doubt I will ever find another. As toward the > value of the EC-1 I don't have a clue but would like to know what > anyone else thinks a fair price would be. FWIW, I was just in the middle of purchasing one. Right *after* the paperwork and logistics for the deal was complete, the seller accepted another offer of $1700 for *my* EC-1. So, that appears to be the going rate for a pretty-good condition EC-1. In the process, I did manage to get the assembly manual for an EC-1, so now that I know how expensive they are, maybe I'll just build my own. If I get the time, I'll try to scan and web-ize the assembly manual. I don't recall seeing any hard-to-get parts in the parts list. I don't have the operations manual, but the assembly manual did include the patch-configuration for a bouncing ball simulation and one or two others. I'd say the EC-1 is a pretty good candidate for the first personal computer. It was intro'd in 1960 for around $300. -- Doug From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 29 20:26:00 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey Message-ID: <199805300126.AA00783@world.std.com> This is fairly recent so please reply offlist. Found a DELL 316(386sx/16), has 5.25 360k, 1.44 floppy, 170mb IDE with a DEC color tube and keyboard. It runs so it's going to become a minix or linux machine. QUESTION: is there a CMOS and how do I access it? Allison From dastar at wco.com Fri May 29 20:27:48 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: New Toys and Moral Dilemmas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 May 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > 1) A body fat measuring computer. This is one of those things that runs > current through you to test your resitance (the fatter you are, the higher > your resistance (except your resistance to food, of course)). It's driven > by a TRS-80 Model 100 bolted onto a contraption and mounted in a > briefcase. Would you free the M100 or leave it as a (bad) example of a > computer-contolled app? (Or leave it near the fridge as a subtle reminder > of your pigosity?) Keep it original. You can always get an M100 (they are practically a dime a dozen I find). But you can't always find the interesting uses people put it to, ie. your example. > 2) A Kurzweil "Personal Reader". This was very high-tech for its time: a > portable card cage with hand-held scanner, OCR software in ROM, and a > DEC-Talk module. Used by the blind to read books. I assume it has been > obsoleted by much less expensive PC-based equipment, but would you offer > to donate it to a center for the blind or keep it as a (good) example of a > computer-controlled app? That is an interesting dilemma. Perhaps you could give it to an organization on "indefinite loan", and ask that they return it to you when it no longer is needed or is supplanted by a generous offering of modern day equipment? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri May 29 20:29:37 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: IBM Techref's available? Message-ID: <19980530012937.18689.qmail@hotmail.com> I emailed IBM. they said they transferred the stuff to someplace called Greenleaf computers (I think, not sure). I didn't bother to pursue it. They will be happy to give you the phone #. >> Hi, >> >> Are technical references for IBM XT's / 286 machines avaialbe from IBM >> still? If so then I assume that they charge quite a bit of money for >> them! > >AFAIK, all are out of print, but IBM probably have some remaining stock >of most of them. I bought several manuals about a year ago. > >The XT Model 286 manual is unavailable. > >The others that you might need are : > >PC >XT and Portable PC >AT >AT suplement for the type 2 board >(those contain schematics of the motherboard and keyboard, BIOS sources, etc) > >Options and Adapters. 2 volumes covering just about every card for the PC >and XT, monitors, drives, etc. >O&A AT update (16 bit cards, serial/parallel adapter, etc) >Scientific O&A (GPIB, DAC, PGC, etc) > >PC-jr (PC-jr motherboard _and all option cards_ for it in one manual) > >I posted the forms numbers (which you need to get them from IBM) on this >list a few months back - it's probably in the archives somewhere... > >They're not cheap, but not too expensive IMHO. Figure on \pounds 50.00 >per volume. I was pleasantly supprised by the ammount of information that >I got. > >> Jules > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri May 29 20:28:24 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Byte Magazine RIP Message-ID: I don't know if everyone has heard, but the July issue of Byte will be the last issue. It's a sad day for the computer industry. While Byte has become primarily a Windows magazine in the past few years, they were still the closest thing to a general purpose magazine left, and the only non-specialized computer magazine that I still bought. The following C/Net article gives the details http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,22532,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri May 29 20:34:41 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: 20 years of BYTE Message-ID: <19980530013441.492.qmail@hotmail.com> I remember back in the soviet union there were a couple of good magazines for young people that had projects in them.I was too young to build any of them, and you'd have a hard time getting a blank PCB there anyway, but they had a primitive rover-like robot (with programmable modules based on the arrangement of electrical traces on a cartridge), an RC boat, etc. I'd love to get my hands on one of those. When I go back there (hopefully in a couple of years), I will be sure to photocopy some of the stuff. Nothing like "build 99 projects" of today. >> > >> >> It's no loss IMO. Byte hasn't been worth the paper it was printed on > >Agreed. I stopped reading Byte shortly after the last 'Ciarcia's Circuit >Cellar'. It's not that that was the only interesting article in it - many >of the programming articles were great as well. But all the good stuff >went at about the same time, and Byte became yet another ready-built >PC-clone mag. > >> for a looonnggg time. The same thing happened to Popular Electronics, >> another of good OLD magazines. > >Are there _any_ good electronics/computer mags left now (especially in >the UK)? Elektor used to be good, but recently it's all been >pre-programmed PLDs with no idea as to what's in them, controlled by >binary-only software for Microsoft OS's. No interest there for me... > >> >> Joe >> >> > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dastar at wco.com Fri May 29 20:36:46 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: 20 years of BYTE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > Are there _any_ good electronics/computer mags left now (especially in > the UK)? Elektor used to be good, but recently it's all been > pre-programmed PLDs with no idea as to what's in them, controlled by > binary-only software for Microsoft OS's. No interest there for me... Check out _The Computer Journal_ (http://www.psyber.com/~tcj) (our own Allison parent contributes articles). You might also want to see if you can get _Nuts&Volts_ over there. Is _Midnight Engineering_ still around? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri May 29 20:41:02 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Insanely Great Message-ID: <19980530014103.17594.qmail@hotmail.com> Another trio of questions. I am reading Steven Levy's Insanely Great, about the making of the Apple Mac. 1)I finally have learned the purpose of Quickdraw through this book. Do all windowing systems do this, or are there ones that render all windows even if they are obscured. The name of the system I want to know about ought not be mentioned for obvious reasons. 2)It mentioned a "new input device" that was before the Xerox machine, to be used alongside the mouse, was flexible but required training. What was it? 3)Should I keep my reference cards attached to the manuals or tear them off? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dastar at wco.com Fri May 29 20:46:40 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Insanely Great In-Reply-To: <19980530014103.17594.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 May 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > 2)It mentioned a "new input device" that was before the Xerox machine, > to be used alongside the mouse, was flexible but required training. > What was it? That probably referred to the "chord" keyboard. It allowed you to type with one hand. > 3)Should I keep my reference cards attached to the manuals or tear > them off? Do you have a use for the cards? Tear them off. Do you want to keep the book pristine in the hopes that someday it will auction at Christies for $100,000? Leave them be. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/11/98] From bill_r at inetnebr.com Fri May 29 20:51:24 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: What is it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <357364e2.21293868@hoser> *laugh You too? I was bidding on that weird thing too. I asked the seller to find any chips that looked different from the rest and let me know what their markings were. They did (and posted them to the item description on eBay as well), but they didn't mean much to me. I was hoping for something interesting as well, but considering the size of the thing, and that fact that it was up to $50 without any info to speak of, I dropped out of the race. I did write the winning bidder, though, and asked him if he would be so kind as to e-mail me when he gets it, to let me know what it was. My curiosity is aroused. I'm thinking maybe a TV typewriter, or the guts to something like an ADM3 mounted in a rack-mount case, with a separate keyboard? It didn't look like there was much to it, though. The power leads were marked +5V and something else I couldn't read; probably the standard +/- 12V as well. If you hear anything, let me know, and I'll do the same. On Fri, 29 May 1998 19:48:23 -0500 (CDT), you wrote: >Somebody outbid me in the final seconds for this thing: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=15344547 > >My guess was that it might be a "TV Typewriter", hopefully 8008-based, but >now I'll never know. Anybody want to venture a guess? > >-- Doug -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From engine at chac.org Fri May 29 20:54:06 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Insanely Great In-Reply-To: <19980530014103.17594.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980529185406.00a3c800@pop.batnet.com> At 18:41 5/29/98 PDT, Max wrote: >2)It mentioned a "new input device" that was before the Xerox machine, >to be used alongside the mouse, was flexible but required training. >What was it? Doug Engelbart designed a five-key keyboard that would do most of seven-bit ASCII by accepting chording combinations. His idea was that you'd always run the keyboard with one hand and the mouse with the other. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri May 29 20:57:09 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: System/34 Message-ID: <19980530015709.23172.qmail@hotmail.com> I have started to dismantle my System/34 so that I can save at least the parts until someone can get them. One question is, does everything in each S/34 plug together the same way? If so, I don't have to label the cables, which is going to be a looong task. Also, how should I park/lock the 62 megabyte hard drive? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ecloud at goodnet.com Fri May 29 21:00:52 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: EC-1 (was Re: Re[2]: Computer Values) In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at May 29, 98 08:22:34 pm Message-ID: <199805300200.TAA26248@goodnet.com> > In the process, I did manage to get the assembly manual for an EC-1, so > now that I know how expensive they are, maybe I'll just build my own. If > I get the time, I'll try to scan and web-ize the assembly manual. I don't > recall seeing any hard-to-get parts in the parts list. FWIW, the company that currently sells Heathkit manual reprints doesn't look too kindly on people publishing web manuals from what I've heard. I'd sure like to publish my stash too if I could do so without getting sued. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * eschew obfuscation * OO * Star Trek * alternative energy * sci fi * From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 29 21:23:06 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: EC-1 (was Re: Re[2]: Computer Values) In-Reply-To: <199805300200.TAA26248@goodnet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 May 1998, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > FWIW, the company that currently sells Heathkit manual reprints doesn't > look too kindly on people publishing web manuals from what I've heard. > I'd sure like to publish my stash too if I could do so without getting sued. Hmm, I know that any patents associated with the EC-1 have expired by now, but I don't recall how long a copyright lasts (more than 38 years, I suspect). -- Doug From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 29 21:19:48 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: EC-1 (was Re: Re[2]: Computer Values) In-Reply-To: <199805300200.TAA26248@goodnet.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980529211948.512f9722@intellistar.net> At 07:00 PM 5/29/98 -0700, you wrote: >> In the process, I did manage to get the assembly manual for an EC-1, so >> now that I know how expensive they are, maybe I'll just build my own. If >> I get the time, I'll try to scan and web-ize the assembly manual. I don't >> recall seeing any hard-to-get parts in the parts list. > >FWIW, the company that currently sells Heathkit manual reprints doesn't >look too kindly on people publishing web manuals from what I've heard. >I'd sure like to publish my stash too if I could do so without getting sued. Do you mean the pirates disapprove of other pirates? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 29 21:34:11 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: EC-1 (was Re: Re[2]: Computer Values) In-Reply-To: References: <199805300200.TAA26248@goodnet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980529213411.512f0210@intellistar.net> At 09:23 PM 5/29/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Fri, 29 May 1998, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > >> FWIW, the company that currently sells Heathkit manual reprints doesn't >> look too kindly on people publishing web manuals from what I've heard. >> I'd sure like to publish my stash too if I could do so without getting sued. > >Hmm, I know that any patents associated with the EC-1 have expired by >now, but I don't recall how long a copyright lasts (more than 38 years, I >suspect). Yes, but are they still valid if the owner is out of business? I know the HK manuals are WIDELY copied and the copies sold. So are Tektronix, HP and a lot of others, and they're still in business! Joe > >-- Doug > > From red at bears.org Fri May 29 21:36:52 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: CTOS/BTOS recovery Message-ID: Hi. I recently picked up some more Convergent machines at a thrift shop. I was pretty amazed; my 186 model was the only one I'd ever seen. Now I've got 286 and 386 models. Wow! Anyway, I also picked up a few disk modules. Two 85 MB modules, I think. (compare to my existing pair of 10 MB modules...) One is an 'expansion' and needs to be connected to another disk module to work. My problem is this: the one disk that has CTOS installed was set up as a 'Cluster Controller' and actually has accounts and passwords set up. I can just press 'Go' at the login on my CM001 and use the system. This doesn't work on the new system. Is there a way I can recover the files on this disk (meaning the OS and application software)? I have OS disks for the standalone version, but I'd like to preserve the cluster controller so starting over is a less-than-ideal option. I do have other working systems and parts available to press into service for the cause. Thoughts, hints, suggestions? ok r. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Fri May 29 18:00:00 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Coco 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199805300256.WAA04751@mail.cgocable.net> In while, Will get the coco 3 (128K) version. I do got the cartidges for it too. What good about it and any thing I can play with especially BASIC and mayble play in 6809 assembly for fun? If is not that right one, anyone recommand something to "play at hardware level and learn about programming and such. boy, I feel like newbie to that kind of level. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 29 22:06:56 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: EC-1 (was Re: Re[2]: Computer Values) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980529213411.512f0210@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 May 1998, Joe wrote: > Yes, but are they still valid if the owner is out of business? I know > the HK manuals are WIDELY copied and the copies sold. So are Tektronix, HP > and a lot of others, and they're still in business! Heathkit *is* still in business, just not quite the same business: http://www.heathkit.com -- Doug From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri May 29 22:13:22 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Insanely Great Message-ID: <006201bd8b79$08f94720$c667bcc1@hotze> >>2)It mentioned a "new input device" that was before the Xerox machine, >>to be used alongside the mouse, was flexible but required training. >>What was it? > >Doug Engelbart designed a five-key keyboard that would do most of seven-bit >ASCII by accepting chording combinations. His idea was that you'd always >run the keyboard with one hand and the mouse with the other. Sounds cool, but hard to use, especially in a time when to use a computer, you needed to type at least 30-50WPM (WAM), and spent enough time on a computer to compute in your sleep!!! That kind of typing can't be easy to forget. I recently saw a one-handed keyboard, which looked kinda like a MS Natural Keyboard, with the right hand sawed off, and the numeric keypad next to the left. It looked like there were a few extra keys, but you had a key that you held down, kinda like shift, and it would make the oposite character (like A for H, S for J, etc.) Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From yowza at yowza.com Fri May 29 22:28:21 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Chorded Keyboards (was Re: Insanely Great) In-Reply-To: <006201bd8b79$08f94720$c667bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 May 1998, Hotze wrote: > >Doug Engelbart designed a five-key keyboard that would do most of seven-bit > >ASCII by accepting chording combinations. His idea was that you'd always > >run the keyboard with one hand and the mouse with the other. > > I recently saw a one-handed keyboard, which looked kinda like a MS > Natural Keyboard, with the right hand sawed off, and the numeric keypad next > to the left. It looked like there were a few extra keys, but you had a key > that you held down, kinda like shift, and it would make the oposite > character (like A for H, S for J, etc.) Check out the Twiddler: http://www.handykey.com/ I don't like the idea of a handheld keyboard as much as I like the idea of a chorded keyboard. I often chord my keys by mistake, so it seems natural to both increase the speed of input and reduce the size of a keyboard by using chorded key combinations. You, Tim, are one of the few on the list with neurons still flexible enough to rewire your brain for a new kind of keyboard, so this would be a good invention for you to foist upon the next generation of geeks. -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Fri May 29 22:44:47 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Contact References: <356F59F4.71512D7D@club-internet.fr> Message-ID: <356F80AF.FB4057EE@cnct.com> Tara wrote: > > Is there a list or a forum for those who collect classic micro-computers > ? > please help me. Thank you. > > Olivier BOISSEAU > oboissea@club-internet.fr Well, you seem to have successfully posted a message to it. It's us, despite our occasional (and sometimes fun) flamewars. We _try_ not to bash somebody else's favorite line, but sometimes it sneaks out. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Fri May 29 23:04:08 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: EC-1 (was Re: Re[2]: Computer Values) References: <199805300200.TAA26248@goodnet.com> <3.0.1.16.19980529213411.512f0210@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <356F8538.A5AC5BC1@cnct.com> Joe wrote: > > At 09:23 PM 5/29/98 -0500, you wrote: > >On Fri, 29 May 1998, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > > > >> FWIW, the company that currently sells Heathkit manual reprints doesn't > >> look too kindly on people publishing web manuals from what I've heard. > >> I'd sure like to publish my stash too if I could do so without getting > sued. > > > >Hmm, I know that any patents associated with the EC-1 have expired by > >now, but I don't recall how long a copyright lasts (more than 38 years, I > >suspect). > > Yes, but are they still valid if the owner is out of business? I know > the HK manuals are WIDELY copied and the copies sold. So are Tektronix, HP > and a lot of others, and they're still in business! > It depends, copyright law now extends to something like 60 years past the author's death, and of course corporations never _die_, they are bought up by others who abandon the product and deny that it ever existed -- witness VisiCalc by Personal Software renamed VisiCorp then buried by Lotus when they bought VisiCorp, nowadays Lotus is owned by IBM (makers of my beloved RS/6000 line) and who knows whether or not IBM will pursue a copyright violation there?, since the machines that ran VisiCalc are (mostly) long dead. Case law seems to be vague and/or variable -- since when the copyright laws were last (poorly, from the point of view of a libertarian) rewritten, software for anybody except large businesses or governments was not a factor. My personal opinion is to copy the stuff and wait for the writer to object -- copyright applies to the creator of the product and used to end at death -- the families of politicians who'd written memoirs caused the first extension of the time limit, it being a time when politician weren't automatically rich when elected. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From desieh at southcom.com.au Fri May 29 22:59:30 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old Message-ID: <009201bd8b7f$59ac1840$dc173ccb@mr-ibm> email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm thanks I'll have time in the next day or so to pull the thing apart and relay back my findings............ -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, May 30, 1998 9:03 Subject: Re: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old >[IBM PC floppy drives] > >> I get nothing out of them, no motor spin up, no led, no >> nothing................... > >I've got the Type 1 drive schematics here (from the O&A TechRef volume 1). > >Let's go through the obvious things first. > >You have a DIP shunt (a little plastic block with shorting bars) in >socket 1E of both drives, right? And a termination resistor pack in >socket 2F of the drive physically furthest from the controller. > >Check that the cables on J4 at the back of the logic board are connected >properly. There are some blank pins (4?) nearest to the edge connector, >and then P8-P12 in order along the pins. > >Also, check the supply voltages - +5V and +12V at the drive when the >machine is turned on. You do have the power cables plugged in, I trust >:-) (don't laugh - I've forgotten them). > >OK, let's sort out the lack of LED first. Unplug the cable from the >controller (leave it hooked up to the drives) and turn on the machine. > >Ground pin 3 of IC 3E (a 7407) in the drive. Does the LED come on now? If >so, then suspect the controller, DIP shunt or cable. If not, then ground >pin 4 of IC3E. If the LED now comes on, then IC3E is defective (or not >geting power). > >Problem is, if IC3E is defective, then how many other parts have been >damaged. 7407's are pretty reliable, so if it's damaged, it sounds like >power problems. You didn't hook up the power cable backwards, did you? > >You can trace the motor on signal similarly. Try grounding pin 16 on the >edge connector (the even numbered pins are on the top of the board, >starting from the end nearest to the notch in the connector tongue), or >equivalently pin 1 of IC3E. If the motor doesn't start,then try grounding >TP13. If that starts the motor, IC3E is defective. If the motor still >doesn't start then I'll have to talk you through the motor control board >at the back. > >> >> >> > >-tony > From mallison at konnections.com Fri May 29 17:05:18 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Pam Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: EC-1 (was Re: Re[2]: Computer Values) Message-ID: <199805300359.VAA21600@mail.konnections.com> Copyrights are valid (those affecting 1960) for 75 years, at least. That's for whoever made them, assumed them, or what have you. Someone owns the rights, whether the company exists or not. -Mike ---------- > From: Joe > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: EC-1 (was Re: Re[2]: Computer Values) > Date: Friday, May 29, 1998 9:34 PM > > At 09:23 PM 5/29/98 -0500, you wrote: > >On Fri, 29 May 1998, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > > > >> FWIW, the company that currently sells Heathkit manual reprints doesn't > >> look too kindly on people publishing web manuals from what I've heard. > >> I'd sure like to publish my stash too if I could do so without getting > sued. > > > >Hmm, I know that any patents associated with the EC-1 have expired by > >now, but I don't recall how long a copyright lasts (more than 38 years, I > >suspect). > > Yes, but are they still valid if the owner is out of business? I know > the HK manuals are WIDELY copied and the copies sold. So are Tektronix, HP > and a lot of others, and they're still in business! > > Joe > > > > >-- Doug > > > > > From afritz at iname.com Fri May 29 23:22:53 1998 From: afritz at iname.com (Adam Fritzler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Token Ring Message-ID: I know this MAY not be 10years yet, but its getting there. Does anyone know a good place to get ISA and (especially) EISA token ring cards? (IBM or 100% IBM-compatible prefered.) I figure there must be someone who's got a bunch they'd love to get rid of. :) I don't want (or like) any of this new PCI-based junk. af ---------- Adam Fritzler afritz@iname.com http://www.afritz.base.org ---------- From gram at cnct.com Fri May 29 23:47:28 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey References: <199805290332.AA20498@world.std.com> Message-ID: <356F8F60.C0F1FD63@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > OS9, I've heard a little about it but never seen it. Is it available? > I have a COCO (I think a III, has a few ASICs and 128k), no disk > controller but that can't be much majik. If it has more than 64k, it's a 3, period. That one started at 128k and could expand to 512k. The 1 and 2 stopped at 64k. The official disk controller for Color Computers had an extension to the MS BASIC in the box -- I really don't know enough to figure out how to build one without that -- the TRS OS-9 boot loader was invoked from BASIC which then was gone until powewr cycle -- but it's been so long since I _looked_ at the boot loader that I can't remember the details for OS-9 level one, and since in the few weeks since I've had since I finally got a couple of CoCo 3s, my weekends have been annoyingly filled with house maintenance crap (and a _really_ nasty strain of influenza), I _finally_ hope to boot the bastards (with several non-Tandy components that look fun) this weekend. If that damned flu doesn't come back -- and my throat is sore already. > > What ever happend to LDOS? Well, the market for the Z-80 dried up, and there went Logical Systems and then MisoSys, the creators. MisoSys (Roy Soltoff) sold many items for several years (including The Source and LS-DOS for the 2/12/16/6000 systems), my 8" LS-DOS was serial number 25, bought after Tandy had cancelled Z-80 boxes except to support a few school contracts. (It ran most Mod 4 programs fine except that due to different character generators, anything with the 8th bit set looked weird; I got used to it until the move that destroyed all evidence that I ever owned it. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Sat May 30 00:05:26 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey References: <199805291003.DAA24644@mailtod-112.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <356F9396.4BE9A5B7@cnct.com> John Troxell wrote: > > For data on TRS-80 & LDOS try: > > http://www.kjsl.com/trs80/ > > then link to Tim Mann. To make it quicker, Tim Mann's web page is at Tim helped write LDOS and its descendents. I've always wanted to see what I could with the LS-DOS source and a Tandy 2000, but I knew I wasn't enough of a programmer to really do it back when I was hardly into my thirties and since then too many brain cells have died. (Tuesday was my 43rd birthday, I spent the day laying in a fever with this new influenza -- it was _not_ a good day, I already knew I was getting old but I hadn't had the flu since my early teens that I noticed.) -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat May 30 00:04:19 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: 11/34a runs now... Message-ID: Many thanks to the Listmembers who have offered suggestions and assistance and info.. I have discovered (and rectified) the problem with my RK05 talking to it's host. I could get into a long shaggy-dog story here, but basically I had the *drive* end of the interface cable in bass-ackward. >>> DOH! <<< (Lame excuse: it's the end you can't see) And now the terminal sez: RT-11SJ V02C-02 . kewl, huh? And, even though the problem turned out to be a forehead-slapper, I must say that I have learned great gobs of stuff about how the drive works, how it interfaces, and what makes it tick. I would *never* have had the opportunity to get such (rare) understanding, had it not been for the long diagnostic journey. And that is one of my goals in collecting these things: to know them well enough to keep them on the air, and to be able to share that knowledge with others in return. Thanks to Tony Duell, Tim Shoppa, Ward Griffiths, and Huw Davies for their generous assistance. Now: get the RL02s on-line, find formatter for the Kennedy 9trk, find an interface for the System Industries 470M drive, get Unix running, &tc; &tc; &tc. But.. TRW Ham/Electronic/Computer swapmeet is tomorrow, the 28th (Sat) here in SoCal... and I'm heading that way... to find all the goodies before Marvin has a chance at them. ;} Cheers John From gram at cnct.com Sat May 30 00:16:52 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey References: Message-ID: <356F9644.5AD97F3E@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > > OS9, I've heard a little about it but never seen it. Is it available? > > It's somewhat unix-like - but with 'strange' command names like EDIT, > DIR, etc. Internally it's a very modular OS and quite easy to hack about > on. And the manuals that came with it are excellent. > > For a CoCo3, you really need OS-9 level 2. That supports the MMU in the > machine, and gives you access to up to 512K RAM. Later versions of OS-9 > level 1 will boot, but will treat the machine as a CoCo 2. Old versions > of OS-9 level one will not boot. For OS-9 level 2, you _require_ a CoCo 3 -- 128k was the minimum RAM supported, and no earlier Color Computer ever officially supported more than 64k. > You might be able to order the disks from Radio Shack. Don't they have a > way of buying the disk for old software products for not too much? > > What ever happend to LDOS? > > Well, you mean apart from die-hards like me still running it :-) And me, as well as the 5.25" version of LS-DOS -- I used to have the 8" version as well, but that was all lost during a move some years back, the IRS has my "eternal" "gratitude". (Ben Franklin told us long ago that three moves equals one fire, I think they're that generous if the move is planned in advance). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Sat May 30 00:32:13 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Insanely Great References: <006201bd8b79$08f94720$c667bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <356F99DD.F9C5837C@cnct.com> Hotze wrote: > > >>2)It mentioned a "new input device" that was before the Xerox machine, > >>to be used alongside the mouse, was flexible but required training. > >>What was it? > > > >Doug Engelbart designed a five-key keyboard that would do most of seven-bit > >ASCII by accepting chording combinations. His idea was that you'd always > >run the keyboard with one hand and the mouse with the other. > > Sounds cool, but hard to use, especially in a time when to use a computer, > you needed to type at least 30-50WPM (WAM), and spent enough time on a > computer to compute in your sleep!!! That kind of typing can't be easy to > forget. > I recently saw a one-handed keyboard, which looked kinda like a MS > Natural Keyboard, with the right hand sawed off, and the numeric keypad next > to the left. It looked like there were a few extra keys, but you had a key > that you held down, kinda like shift, and it would make the oposite > character (like A for H, S for J, etc.) Nope, a chord keyboard is one with spots for the five fingers that produce codes based on chords (combinations) of fingers pressed down, frequently with a bit of palm action as well. The ones I've been looking at are increasingly attractive since they require much less finger movement than keyboards and my inherited arthritis mostly hassles me when I'm at the keyboard. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From marvin at rain.org Sat May 30 03:26:12 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: 11/34a runs now... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 May 1998, John Lawson wrote: > But.. TRW Ham/Electronic/Computer swapmeet is tomorrow, the 28th > (Sat) here in SoCal... and I'm heading that way... to find all the > goodies before Marvin has a chance at them. > Truth be know, I tend to miss all the good stuff that John comes home with. Course, maybe some of that sleuthing ability that John has will rub off :). One can always hope! From jrice at texoma.net Sat May 30 08:10:13 1998 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Token Ring References: Message-ID: <35700535.B3E2B102@texoma.net> Software Etc. in Allen TX, just north of Dallas had a bunch on ISA 16/4 token ring vards a little while back for $1.00 each. If you would like, I'll look Monday. James Adam Fritzler wrote: > > I know this MAY not be 10years yet, but its getting there. > > Does anyone know a good place to get ISA and (especially) EISA token ring > cards? (IBM or 100% IBM-compatible prefered.) I figure there must be > someone who's got a bunch they'd love to get rid of. :) I don't want (or > like) any of this new PCI-based junk. > > af > > ---------- > Adam Fritzler > afritz@iname.com > http://www.afritz.base.org > ---------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat May 30 09:45:49 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: EC-1 (was Re: Re[2]: Computer Values)y In-Reply-To: <199805300359.VAA21600@mail.konnections.com> from "Pam Allison" at May 29, 98 10:05:18 pm Message-ID: <9805301345.AA07840@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 665 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980530/a0ecafdb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 30 09:00:26 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Why does the Apple ][ have a hardware-encoded keyboard? Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 728 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980530/197091c5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 30 09:04:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: S2350 data sheet Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980530/9f18e464/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 30 08:40:39 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Convergent Computers Re: CTOS/BTOS recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980530084039.30379e28@intellistar.net> I recently found a Convergent computer in a surplus store here. It has the display section, CPU section and hard drive in blocks that attach to each other and looks like it uses some kind of external power supply. Each block had a model number on it but the only one that I remember was CP-001 on the CPU. Anyone know what this thing is and wheather it's worth picking up? Joe At 10:36 PM 5/29/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Hi. > >I recently picked up some more Convergent machines at a thrift shop. I was >pretty amazed; my 186 model was the only one I'd ever seen. Now I've got >286 and 386 models. Wow! > >Anyway, I also picked up a few disk modules. Two 85 MB modules, I think. >(compare to my existing pair of 10 MB modules...) One is an 'expansion' >and needs to be connected to another disk module to work. > >My problem is this: the one disk that has CTOS installed was set up as a >'Cluster Controller' and actually has accounts and passwords set up. I can >just press 'Go' at the login on my CM001 and use the system. This doesn't >work on the new system. > >Is there a way I can recover the files on this disk (meaning the OS and >application software)? I have OS disks for the standalone version, but I'd >like to preserve the cluster controller so starting over is a >less-than-ideal option. I do have other working systems and parts >available to press into service for the cause. > >Thoughts, hints, suggestions? > >ok >r. > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 30 09:21:14 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: EC-1 (was Re: Re[2]: Computer Values)y In-Reply-To: <9805301345.AA07840@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <199805300359.VAA21600@mail.konnections.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980530092114.44ef28bc@intellistar.net> At 06:45 AM 5/30/98 -0800, you wrote: > >Personally, I'd rather have an "official" reprint over a Xerox of an >original any day. Especially in the case of a Heathkit - those >textured yellow covers are an essential ingredient in any Heathkit, IMHO :-). > >Tim. > You should have said something sooner. I just sold nearly 100 old HeathKit manuals (non-computer) for a laughable price. Joe.' From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat May 30 10:51:20 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Why does the Apple ][ have a hardware-encoded keyboard? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 30, 98 03:00:26 pm Message-ID: <9805301451.AA04382@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2642 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980530/1ef40cc8/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 30 10:10:32 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Copyrights Re: EC-1 (was Re: Re[2]: Computer Values) In-Reply-To: <356F8538.A5AC5BC1@cnct.com> References: <199805300200.TAA26248@goodnet.com> <3.0.1.16.19980529213411.512f0210@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980530101032.4eb74a28@intellistar.net> At 12:04 AM 5/30/98 -0400, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> >> At 09:23 PM 5/29/98 -0500, you wrote: >> >On Fri, 29 May 1998, Shawn Rutledge wrote: >> > >> >> FWIW, the company that currently sells Heathkit manual reprints doesn't >> >> look too kindly on people publishing web manuals from what I've heard. >> >> I'd sure like to publish my stash too if I could do so without getting >> sued. >> > >> >Hmm, I know that any patents associated with the EC-1 have expired by >> >now, but I don't recall how long a copyright lasts (more than 38 years, I >> >suspect). >> >> Yes, but are they still valid if the owner is out of business? I know >> the HK manuals are WIDELY copied and the copies sold. So are Tektronix, HP >> and a lot of others, and they're still in business! >> >It depends, copyright law now extends to something like 60 years past >the author's death, and of course corporations never _die_, they are >bought up by others who abandon the product and deny that it ever >existed -- witness VisiCalc by Personal Software renamed VisiCorp then >buried by Lotus when they bought VisiCorp, nowadays Lotus is owned by >IBM (makers of my beloved RS/6000 line) and who knows whether or not >IBM will pursue a copyright violation there?, since the machines that >ran VisiCalc are (mostly) long dead. Case law seems to be vague and/or >variable -- since when the copyright laws were last (poorly, from the >point of view of a libertarian) rewritten, software for anybody except >large businesses or governments was not a factor. My personal opinion >is to copy the stuff and wait for the writer to object Ward, (Rant on) Good point! In a lot of cases the large corporations bought up the rights to this kind of stuff without even knowing when they bought out other companies. A good example is Martin Marietta owning the rights to the Terak computers. I remember someone on this list is trying to get them to release the rights. The problem is that EVERYTHING that's printed today is copy-righted. Even the wrappers on McDonald's hamburgers are copy righted! Furthermore, don't the copyright laws ban copying FOR PURPOSES OF COMMERCIAL PROFIT? and NOT for personal non-profit use? If so, then you or I are free to copy someone else's manual FOR OUR OWN USE. I think this not copying stuff because of copy rights has been carried to a rediculous extreme. I know people that won't copy an ad brochure because it's copyrighted. Well obviously the company that wrote it did so for the purposes of having the public read it. Surely they won't object to having even more copies made and even more people read it! (Rant off) Joe From rhblake at bbtel.com Sat May 30 11:50:44 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: minor find,need info References: <199805300126.AA00869@world.std.com> Message-ID: <357038E4.983E037E@bbtel.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > Found a DELL 316(386sx/16), has 5.25 360k, 1.44 floppy, 170mb IDE with > a DEC color tube and keyboard. It runs so it's going to become a minix or > linux machine. > > QUESTION: is there a CMOS and how do I access it? Should be CTL-ALT-ENTER if I remember correctly. Once you're at DOS you can hit these and go right into the CMOS. If that doesn't get it try CTL-ALT-INS, CTL-ALT-ESC or CTL-ALT-S. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sat May 30 11:56:39 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Contact References: <356F59F4.71512D7D@club-internet.fr> Message-ID: <35703A47.6DB728C4@bbtel.com> Tara wrote: > Is there a list or a forum for those who collect classic micro-computers ? > > please help me. Thank you. I think you're here! -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 30 12:10:02 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: minor find,need info Message-ID: <199805301710.AA24869@world.std.com> <> Found a DELL 316(386sx/16), has 5.25 360k, 1.44 floppy, 170mb IDE with <> <> QUESTION: is there a CMOS and how do I access it? < Message-ID: <35704285.D1E3B6F5@bbtel.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > That was the winner, thanks. I should have specifed that it was a Pheonix > bios machine. I normally write the setup keys in permanent marker on top of the power supply case for future reference. Normally Phoenix BIOS systems like Puke-ard Bell uses CTL-ALT-S. > FYI it's a great Minix machine! For those that are interested there is > a site on the net (http://minix1.hampshire.edu). Bins and sources are > available on the net. It can be run on anything from an XT to P6. > There is also a book Operating Systems design and Implmentation 2nd > Edition with CDrom of sources and bins. I have a ton of them if anyone wants one or more. I'm sure I can let them go cheap since I got them cheap. They usually come with a 3.5" floppy and the 5.25" slot has a knockout. They use 30 pin SIMMs. All you do is throw in the extra parts (SIMMs, HDD, KB, mouse and monitor) and go. The CMOS usually recognizes and sets the IDE drive type itself but you can manually do it too. The units I have here are Dell 325SX units which are 386SX -25 machines in a low profile case and built in ports. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From red at bears.org Sat May 30 12:35:29 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Convergent Computers Re: CTOS/BTOS recovery In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980530084039.30379e28@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 May 1998, Joe wrote: > other and looks like it uses some kind of external power supply. Each > block had a model number on it but the only one that I remember was CP-001 > on the CPU. Anyone know what this thing is and wheather it's worth picking > up? It's a Convergent NGEN computer, like mine. The CP-001 is an 80186 CPU. There were 6 and 8 MHz models (CP-001/6 and CP-001/8). Whether it's worth picking up is up to you. It certainly is unlike anything I've ever used before. See if you can find the power supplies, as they won't be much good without them. You don't need one for each module, though---each module is stamped with a "Power Code". You only need one power supply for each 10 units. These are more-or-less identical to the Burroughs B25 machines. ok r. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 30 09:53:59 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Coco 3 In-Reply-To: <199805300256.WAA04751@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at May 29, 98 11:00:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1483 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980530/af8a5a54/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 30 10:34:57 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:12 2005 Subject: Insanely Great In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 29, 98 06:46:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1346 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980530/39f9ba1a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 30 10:38:11 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Insanely Great In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980529185406.00a3c800@pop.batnet.com> from "Kip Crosby" at May 29, 98 06:54:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 614 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980530/84e968d5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 30 11:06:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: 11/34a runs now... In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at May 29, 98 10:04:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1389 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980530/22a35dc8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 30 11:15:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Tandy web page malarkey In-Reply-To: <356F9644.5AD97F3E@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at May 30, 98 01:16:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 782 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980530/767192eb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 30 09:56:38 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Contact In-Reply-To: <356F59F4.71512D7D@club-internet.fr> from "Tara" at May 30, 98 02:59:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 424 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980530/a9670671/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat May 30 14:43:22 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Why does the Apple ][ have a hardware-encoded keyboard? Message-ID: <19980530194322.15739.qmail@hotmail.com> I had just read the interview oyu mention yesterday. Could someone give me some idea of what chips were involved in this thing? Did it use PROMs, microcontrollers, or what? How can you make a game with 44 chips (not an expression of disbelief)? > >> It's reasonably obvious from looking at the design of all Apple ][ series >> machines and their peripherals that they were designed to use the >> simplest hardware possible. Things like the 'minimalist' disk controller, >> the bit-banger serial port and the Apple ][ I/O structure support this. >> >> Why therefore did all Apple ][s use a hardware encoded keyboard with a >> fairly complex (and expensive) encoder IC? Software scanning would have >> been simpler in the hardware, not added much to the software, and would >> have been more versatile in many ways (the single-wire shift key mod >> wouldn't have been necessary). > >At the time (mid-70's), surplus keyboards with ASCII encoded parallel >outputs were readily available from many sources. Check, for example, >the ads in the back of a '75 or '76 _Radio-Electronics_, or see >many of the articles in the early _BYTE_'s. According to interviews >with Wozniak (for example, _BYTE 1984:12 p.167), it was no big >deal to find such a keyboard, put the right plug on the end, and >plug it in (he says, of the Apple I, "You also had >to get a keyboard and wire it into a 16-pin DIP connector".) > >Apple II motherboards were also available without a case or keyboard >or power supply, and many hobbyists bought these as a way of saving >a couple of bucks. > >Why use an encoder IC? Yes, it is cheaper if you skip this and >have the CPU scan the keyboard. But encoder IC's weren't expensive >at the time, and were an extremely common industry-standard >solution; see, for example, Don Lancaster's _TTL Cookbook_ to get >an idea at how readily available such encoders were in the mid-70's. > >Wozniak often did go for non-industry-standard solutions to >peripheral interfacing, but generally only when it reduced the >chip count. It seems to me that the encoder-IC approach to a >keyboard has a lower part count than if you use SSI TTL IC's to let >the CPU scan the keyboard. > >Chip count was an extremely important thing to Wozniak; for example, >in the same interview I referenced before, he says > >"Nolan Bushnell >was really annoyed because all their new games were coming out at 150- >170 chips. He wanted low chip counts to reduce costs, >and he had seen a version of Pong that I had done, that only used >about 30 chips. He appreciated that. So he said if we could design >a hardware Breakout in under 50 chips, we'd get 700 bucks; and if >it was under 40 chips, we'd get $1000. ... We gave them a working >breadboard for it. My first design was 42 chips. By the >time we got it working it was 44, but we were so tired we >couldn't cut it down. So we only got 700 bucks for >it." > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ddameron at earthlink.net Sat May 30 14:50:10 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: my first computer, game of "life" Message-ID: <199805301950.MAA17428@germany.it.earthlink.net> Hi all, I first discovered digital logic and TTL IC's about 1973, and wanted to build something not trivial with them. The project I chose was John Conway's game of "life" as described in Martin Gardner's Mathematical Games in "Scientific American" I ending using a 32x32 element grid using 2 (then expensive!) 2102 rams (No A or other suffix then) I would calculate one generation from one ram and write to the other. I used about a 60kHz clock and 74193 counters to generate the addresses. The clock went to a decade counter and the first 8 states generated +/- x and y clocks to visit the 8 neighbors of a given cell. If the cell was a "1", another counter was incremented, number of neighbors. The 9'th state was at the given cell. The rule was then used: Neighbors =2 and cell active, or Neighbors = 3, then the new cell was active, otherwise it was not. The 10'th clock wrote the cell to the new generation (the other ram). Thus 10 clock cycles were needed for each cell, or 10240 for each generation. This was much faster than a later 4MHz Z-80 program! I displayed the results on a 5 inch oscilloscope, using 555 timers with PNP transistor current sources to charge the timing capacitor, for x and y ramp or deflection waveforms. This was straight out of a National Semiconductor databook. The refresh rate was about 60Hz. The "load" signals for the 74193's was used to write data into locations from address switches. Finally 3 7490's and 7447's displayed the generation number on 7 segment displays. It was fun to watch the generations flash by. The total number of IC's was about 35 + 6 for the generation counter. -Dave From dastar at wco.com Sat May 30 16:01:10 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: New stuff, new questions Message-ID: I picked up some odd-balls recently. One item is called a Disk Storage Drive Diagnostic Unit made by a company called Information Storage Systems, Inc. Another unit I saw had a Sperry-Univac label on it. It's obvious what it is, but for what drives? The manual says Model 714 and 715 disk storage drives, but is that hard or floppy? I can't tell from the unit, although my guess would be hard disk. Anyone ever used, let alone heard, of one of these? I also got another, older model, but didn't get a manual with it. (You can find more of these at Mike Quinn Electronics in case you're interested). I also picked up a Standard Engineering Corporation Word Generator (WGR-241). It looks like it is a PDP-11 card, but I'm not totally sure (its got the big horse-teeth edge connector). On the front is 24 SPST switches, I guess for setting a 24-bit word. Any clues? I also got a TI program recorder (for the TI 99/4a) and a couple AtariLab software packages (starter set and Light module), which were little physical sciences experimenter kits for the Atari 400/800. They come with a carthridge for the program, and each one has a different set of sensors that plug into the computer. The start kit has a module that connects to the joystick port, and the other kits' sensors plug into this module so you can get simultaneous readings from different sensors I suppose. The starter kit had a letter in it addressed from one of the design staff thanking whoever recieved the package for their help in bringing the product to market. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 30 14:06:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Why does the Apple ][ have a hardware-encoded keyboard? In-Reply-To: <9805301451.AA04382@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at May 30, 98 07:51:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980530/d1e52d69/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Sat May 30 16:54:31 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: New stuff, new questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 30 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > One item is called a Disk Storage Drive Diagnostic Unit made by a company > called Information Storage Systems, Inc. Another unit I saw had a > Sperry-Univac label on it. It's obvious what it is, but for what drives? > The manual says Model 714 and 715 disk storage drives, but is that hard or > floppy? I can't tell from the unit, although my guess would be hard disk. > Anyone ever used, let alone heard, of one of these? I also got another, > older model, but didn't get a manual with it. (You can find more of these > at Mike Quinn Electronics in case you're interested). I always leave out the important information. The manual is copyrighted 1974, so this unit is rather old. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 30 17:17:12 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: help! strange Atari box Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980530171712.342797ca@intellistar.net> Hi all, I went to a surplus store last week and found an odd Atari box. It says it's an Automatic ROM/RAM Tester. It has two rows of address switches, one switches on one row are labeled 10 through 0 and have LEDs above them. The second row of switches only has five switches and they marked 11 through 15 and don't have corrosponding LEDS. Switch 11 is directly below switch 10, switch 12 is below switch 9, and so on. It looks like they may be multiplexed somehow. The box also has 8 Data switches and LEDs. The are four low insertion force sockets on the box, two are for 25 pin DIPs and 2 are for 20 pin DIPs. There are also various other switchs marked 1K/2K, RUN/STOP, Read/R/W*, and GAME/BOX. There is only one connector on the box, it goes to a 50 pin card edge connector via a ribbon cable. There are no power connectors or other connectors on it so it has to part of a larger unit. Any ideas? Anyone? Joe From yowza at yowza.com Sat May 30 17:19:40 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Intel 8008 CPU date codes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just lucked into a few 8008's and they don't use a date code I recognize. Can somebody interpret for me: 1209A 0276R 1464B BTW, the chips are stamped C8008. Is there any significance to the "C"? -- Doug From dastar at wco.com Sat May 30 17:23:31 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Microprocessors and who made them? Message-ID: Is there a reference somewhere listing all the different microprocessors ever made and who the designers were? Preferrably such a list would include a way (or hint of a way) to contact the designer of said microprocessor. Thanks! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From dastar at wco.com Sat May 30 17:25:05 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: help! strange Atari box In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980530171712.342797ca@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 May 1998, Joe wrote: > I went to a surplus store last week and found an odd Atari box. It says > it's an Automatic ROM/RAM Tester. It has two rows of address switches, one > switches on one row are labeled 10 through 0 and have LEDs above them. The > second row of switches only has five switches and they marked 11 through 15 > and don't have corrosponding LEDS. Switch 11 is directly below switch 10, > switch 12 is below switch 9, and so on. It looks like they may be > multiplexed somehow. The box also has 8 Data switches and LEDs. The are > four low insertion force sockets on the box, two are for 25 pin DIPs and 2 > are for 20 pin DIPs. There are also various other switchs marked 1K/2K, > RUN/STOP, Read/R/W*, and GAME/BOX. There is only one connector on the box, > it goes to a 50 pin card edge connector via a ribbon cable. There are no > power connectors or other connectors on it so it has to part of a larger > unit. Any ideas? Anyone? It sounds like a tester for Atari 2600 carthridge ROMs. Very cool. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From manney at lrbcg.com Sat May 30 17:18:41 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: TI/99A Stuff Message-ID: <01bd8c18$e7342560$LocalHost@laptop> For sale, trade, whatever... manney@lrbcg.com TI-99/4A, adapter, RF Modulator 2 Joysticks Cassette Player Speech Synthesis Module (Broken case, rattles when shaken) Dust Cover CARTRIDGES Household Budget Management Hunt the Wumpus The Attack Chisolm Trail Moon Mine TI Invaders Munch Man Parsec Football Blasto Adventure Video Chess Return to Pirate's Isle TAPES Pirate Adventure (Tape) Books -- The Official Scott Adams Adventure Hint Book User's Reference Guide Beginner's Basic Quick Reference Guide Instruction book addenda TI 99/4A User's Guide (Casciato/Horsfall) TI 99/4A Game Programs (Holtz) Untitled instruction book for some sort of flight simulator (Winging It?) From ddameron at earthlink.net Sat May 30 17:48:11 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Intel 8008 CPU date codes Message-ID: <199805302248.PAA08538@germany.it.earthlink.net> At 05:19 PM 5/30/98 -0500, you wrote: >I just lucked into a few 8008's and they don't use a date code I >recognize. Can somebody interpret for me: > 1209A > 0276R > 1464B > >BTW, the chips are stamped C8008. Is there any significance to the "C"? > >-- Doug > Don't know about the date code, but for Intel the "C" means ceramic package, vs. P, plastic. The "H" is a Hermetic (2 pieces of ceramic that look like they are cemented together). I think "C" is the only version the 8008 came in. -Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 30 17:09:15 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Why does the Apple ][ have a hardware-encoded keyboard? In-Reply-To: <19980530194322.15739.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at May 30, 98 12:43:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1679 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980530/b2c43e6e/attachment.ksh From chrish at knet.kootenay.net Sat May 30 19:04:00 1998 From: chrish at knet.kootenay.net (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: EC-1 (was Re: Re[2]: Computer Values) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980529213411.512f0210@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980530170400.0069221c@vader.kootenay.net> Try looking at http://www.heathkit.com/parts.html for parts and repair centers also to get old manuals and scimatics look at bottom of the url page phone 616-925-5899 At 10:06 PM 29/05/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Fri, 29 May 1998, Joe wrote: > >> Yes, but are they still valid if the owner is out of business? I know >> the HK manuals are WIDELY copied and the copies sold. So are Tektronix, HP >> and a lot of others, and they're still in business! > >Heathkit *is* still in business, just not quite the same business: > http://www.heathkit.com > >-- Doug > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 30 20:27:23 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Why does the Apple ][ have a hardware-encoded keyboard? Message-ID: <199805310127.AA24769@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at May 30, 98 09:27:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1767 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980531/3126ecb7/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Sat May 30 21:01:17 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Saturday Acquisitions References: <199805300200.TAA26248@goodnet.com> <3.0.1.16.19980529213411.512f0210@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3570B9EC.30BC5CC3@rain.org> Today was a reasonably good day for picking up computer stuff. Todays stash: $ 5.00 Aim65 $ 5.00 HP85 $15.00 HP85B $ 4.00 Heathkit Robotics Manuals (2) $50.00 Alpha MicroSystems w/ spare boards Does anyone know the differences between the HP85 and HP85B? While I have the docs to the HP86 and HP87, I have no docs with the 85's . Also picked up a The Complete Hand Scanner, card, and manuals for $20. I would not have gotten it except I was give a Complete Page Scanner, and needed an I/O card to try it out. Many thanks to John without whose help I would have most likely never even seen most of this stuff :). From marvin at rain.org Sat May 30 21:07:12 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Computers in Hungary/Austria References: Message-ID: <3570BB50.530F0AB6@rain.org> Things are starting to settle down for my going to Hungary in September. Plans right now are to fly into Vienna and travel by train to the ARDF Competition site in Hungary. Plans are such that we will most likely arrive in Vienna on a Thursday and will have four days to sight see and of course, look for old computers! Not wanting to waste the trip :), where does one look for old computers over there? Are there such things as thrift stores, etc. similar to what exist here in the states? Any help here would be greatly appreciated!!! From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 30 21:25:56 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: HP 85 Re: Saturday Acquisitions In-Reply-To: <3570B9EC.30BC5CC3@rain.org> References: <199805300200.TAA26248@goodnet.com> <3.0.1.16.19980529213411.512f0210@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980530212556.45e78352@intellistar.net> At 07:01 PM 5/30/98 -0700, you wrote: >Today was a reasonably good day for picking up computer stuff. Todays >stash: > >$ 5.00 Aim65 >$ 5.00 HP85 >$15.00 HP85B >$ 4.00 Heathkit Robotics Manuals (2) >$50.00 Alpha MicroSystems w/ spare boards > >Does anyone know the differences between the HP85 and HP85B? While I >have the docs to the HP86 and HP87, I have no docs with the 85's . Go look at "www.ebbsoft.com". There is a chart there that shows the differences. There is also a abbreviated command reference there. Joe From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 30 21:45:07 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Intel 8008 CPU date codes Message-ID: <199805310245.AA03338@world.std.com> As of about 10 minutes ago, I am no longer a high school student. I graduated :) I come back here next year as part of the staff. They're hiring me to run the TCP/IP equipment. And, my 11/44 still has a home... ------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sat May 30 22:38:09 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Saturday Acquisitions References: <199805300200.TAA26248@goodnet.com> <3.0.1.16.19980529213411.512f0210@intellistar.net> <3570B9EC.30BC5CC3@rain.org> Message-ID: <3570D0A1.7F987126@bbtel.com> Marvin wrote: > Today was a reasonably good day for picking up computer stuff. Todays > stash: > > $ 5.00 Aim65 Thought you picked up an air to ground missile at first, but that was an AGM 65. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From yowza at yowza.com Sat May 30 23:07:35 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Books In-Reply-To: <199805282216.PAA22109@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: I bumped into Frank "Reanimator" McConnell and Paul "Sun Worshiper" Coad today, and while Paul scrounged for Sun parts, Frank and I did the "one for you, one for me" thing over a pile of old^H^H^H classic books. We both left behind the most complete Modula-2 library I have ever seen, but here's what I brought home: Advanced Programming, Katzan, 1970 Alternating Current Machines, Say, 1976 Analog Digital Conversion Handbook, DEC, 1964 Computer Organization and the System/370, Katzan, 1971 Digital Systems: Hardware Organization and Design, Hill + Peterson, 1973 Electronic Digital Systems, Richards, 1966 Introduction to Statistical Communication Theory, Middleton, 1960 Introduction to Switching and Automata Theory, Harrison, 1965 Introduction to the Theory of Switching Circuits, McCluskey, 1965 Microprocessor Programming and Software Development, Duncan, 1979 Programming and Coding Digital Computers, Sherman, 1963 Statistical Theory of Communication, Lee, 1960 Switching Circuits and Logical Design, Caldwell, 1958 The Logic Design of Transistor Digital Computers, Maley + Earle, 1963 Threshold Logic and its Applications, Muroga, 1971 Transistor Circuit Design, TI Staff, 1963 After I get my study-at-home PhD in Obsolete Hardware Engineering, I'd be happy to loan/trade/sell a few of these titles. -- Doug From dastar at wco.com Sat May 30 23:30:07 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Why does the Apple ][ have a hardware-encoded keyboard? In-Reply-To: <199805310127.AA24769@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 May 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > Things you cant do with a software scanned keyboard: > > Key pressed interrupt, if the cpu doesn't scan the keyboard it cannot > sense activity. It takes some chips extra then to sense any key pressed > and cause a interupt to initiate a keybard scan and debounce routine > to see what happend. That's OK. The Apple was only able to sense one keypress at a time anyway. In fact, you still had to scan an address to see if a key was pressed (location $C000). If the hi-bit was on, a key was pressed. After you read the key, you would have to then access (read or write) location $C010 in order to reset the keyboard strobe. If you didn't do that, the keypress location hi-bit would remain set. However, the value would change for each new key pressed, but you could still only read one keypress at a time. It was hokey and funky but you leanred to work around it, and besides not having a type-ahead buffer (unless you kludged one in software) it worked fine. > The keyboard chips did n-key rollover and buffered at least one > keystroke. I don't know what you mean by n-key rollover. But it only buffered on keystroke. If you pressed another key before you scanned the keyboard strobe, you lost the previous keypress. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From dastar at wco.com Sat May 30 23:45:02 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Why does the Apple ][ have a hardware-encoded keyboard? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 31 May 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > That's quite apart from the fact that AFAIK the Apple ][ keyboard doesn't > generate interrupts. That's correct. I should've stated that in my previous message. The Apple had virtually no interrupts. Everything was software driven. The only way to generate interrupts was either to add hardware to allow for the triggering of standard interrupt or a non-maskable interrupt (NMI), or to JuMP to a location with a #$00, which caused the CPU to jump to your BREAK location (Opcode $00 in 6502 machine language is the BReaK instruction). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From yowza at yowza.com Sat May 30 23:51:05 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Intel 8008 CPU date codes In-Reply-To: <199805310245.AA03338@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 May 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > < 1209A > < 0276R > < 1464B > < > > unknown. Tempting to find one and put it in a board I have from '74. If Allison didn't recognize the date codes, I knew something must be wrong. Sure enough, they are not date codes. They are some other kind of code, and the date codes are stamped on the belly of the chip, not the top. These particular chips were made in the Philippines and Malaysia between 1976 and 1978. -- Doug From rws at ais.net Sun May 31 00:00:18 1998 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Microprocessors and who made them? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 30 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Is there a reference somewhere listing all the different microprocessors > ever made and who the designers were? Preferrably such a list would > include a way (or hint of a way) to contact the designer of said > microprocessor. Great Microprocessors of the Past and Present can be found at . Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From fmc at reanimators.org Sat May 30 23:52:46 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Books In-Reply-To: Doug Yowza's message of Sat, 30 May 1998 23:07:35 -0500 (CDT) References: Message-ID: <199805310452.VAA06153@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Doug Yowza writes: > I bumped into Frank "Reanimator" McConnell and Paul "Sun Worshiper" Coad > today, and while Paul scrounged for Sun parts, Frank and I did the > "one for you, one for me" thing over a pile of old^H^H^H classic books. > We both left behind the most complete Modula-2 library I have ever seen, Not to mention some undoubtedly fascinating volumes on traffic signals. Here's what seems to have followed me home: Arithmetic Operations in Digital Computers, Richards, 1955 Computer System Organization: The B5700/B6700 Series, Organick, 1973 (Oooh! Another stack machine!) Currents in the Theory of Computing, Aho (ed.), 1973 Decimal Computation, Schmid, 1974 Implementing Software for Non-Numeric Applications, Waite, 1973 Information Theory and Coding, Abramson, 1963 Internal Sorting Methods Illustrated with PL/1 Programs, Rich, 1972 Low Density Parity-Check Codes, Gallager, 1963 Microprogramming Primer, Katzan, 1977 Sequential Machines: Selected Papers, Moore (ed.), 1964 Systems Programming, Donovan, 1972 Oh, and the IEEE 802.2 (LLC), 802.4 (token bus), and 802.5 (token ring) standards. Curiously enough, I was looking for the first of these at work this week, and the last one may be of use to me too. > After I get my study-at-home PhD in Obsolete Hardware Engineering, I'd be > happy to loan/trade/sell a few of these titles. Similar offer: if you're in the San Francisco Bay Area and have an interest in these, ask, I'm willing to loan them out. Maybe even if you're not in the Bay Area and can convince me that sending them is a worthwhile thing to do. I definitely want to read the Organick book first, though. -Frank McConnell From yowza at yowza.com Sun May 31 00:56:22 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Books In-Reply-To: <199805310452.VAA06153@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 30 May 1998, Frank McConnell wrote: > > We both left behind the most complete Modula-2 library I have ever seen, > > Not to mention some undoubtedly fascinating volumes on traffic > signals. I actually felt a little guilty about that. Supposedly, that's how Microsoft got its start, right? And to rub it in, I later found some interesting looking stuff from Honeywell Traffic Systems at another junk source today. I left those behind too, but I may go back for an odd looking HTS PROM programmer in a traffic-signal-grey box with a nice array of blinkenlights. -- Doug From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun May 31 01:58:50 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Q-Bus PDP-11 RAM Board Message-ID: I got a non-DEC PDP-11/73 today minus the CPU (not a big deal, I saw the CPU that had been in it, and I've got two of them). Anyway I've managed to identify all of the haul of boards, except the RAM boards. I was told they are 2Mb boards but the person wasn't sure. Also I'm wondering if anyone has the switch settings for them. The board in question is labled: NSC NS23D It also has three jumpers near the contacts. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun May 31 10:07:37 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Why does the Apple ][ have a hardware-encoded keyboard? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 30, 98 08:06:37 pm Message-ID: <9805311407.AA07258@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2635 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980531/25291758/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun May 31 10:09:55 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Q-Bus PDP-11 RAM Board In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at May 30, 98 11:58:50 pm Message-ID: <9805311409.AA10549@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 693 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980531/2e4c0b8d/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Sun May 31 09:39:22 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Books In-Reply-To: References: <199805310452.VAA06153@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980531093922.00b89900@pc> At 12:56 AM 5/31/98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote: >> >> Not to mention some undoubtedly fascinating volumes on traffic >> signals. > >I actually felt a little guilty about that. Supposedly, that's how >Microsoft got its start, right? I think Gates & Allen's first "company" was "Traf-o-data", run on someone else's PDP equipment. I recall it was analyzing traffic data. I only remember because about the same time, I was doing nearly the same thing as my Eagle Scout project, summarizing traffic and accident data for a city. Gates and Foust, the ominous parallels, oh yeah. :-) - John From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun May 31 09:42:26 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Q-Bus PDP-11 RAM Board In-Reply-To: <9805311409.AA10549@alph02.triumf.ca> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at May 30, 98 11:58:50 pm Message-ID: >> The board in question is labled: >> NSC NS23D >> It also has three jumpers near the contacts. > >It's a National Semiconductor board. But I didn't know that they >made any as large as 2 Mbytes; the largest NatSemi Q-bus board >that I've ever seen is only 256kbytes. Can you identify the >memory chip type and count how many are on the board? They have a 9x8 slab of ram on it with one more at the top of the board. The chips are "TMS 4256-15NL","EHP 8736". The circuit board itself has 1985 imbedded in the board. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From djenner at halcyon.com Sun May 31 09:52:18 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Q-Bus PDP-11 RAM Board References: <9805311409.AA10549@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <35716EA2.B546BB79@halcyon.com> I have NS23M (256KB) and NS23S (1MB or 4MB) boards and docs for them. There is no mention of an NS23D. It could be like the NS23S? Dave Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > I got a non-DEC PDP-11/73 today minus the CPU (not a big deal, I saw the > > CPU that had been in it, and I've got two of them). Anyway I've managed to > > identify all of the haul of boards, except the RAM boards. I was told they > > are 2Mb boards but the person wasn't sure. Also I'm wondering if anyone > > has the switch settings for them. > > > > The board in question is labled: > > NSC NS23D > > It also has three jumpers near the contacts. > > It's a National Semiconductor board. But I didn't know that they > made any as large as 2 Mbytes; the largest NatSemi Q-bus board > that I've ever seen is only 256kbytes. Can you identify the > memory chip type and count how many are on the board? > > Tim. From kyrrin at jps.net Sun May 31 10:42:57 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: FW: Budpest Collector needs help Message-ID: <35717a14.207847228@smtp.wa.jps.net> Found on Usenet. One of our fellow collectors in Budapest needs help with, of all things, a Russian version of a MicroPDP-11/23. If anyone can help him along, please contact him directly. Thanks! Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- From: hamster@lord.banki.hu (Akos Varga) Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 Subject: Knowledge on soviet uPDP models? Date: 31 May 1998 14:00:03 GMT Organization: Banki Donat Polytechnic, Budapest Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6krnp3$rhv$1@goliat.eik.bme.hu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lord.banki.hu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 960804] Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news-sea-20.sprintlink.net!207.12.55.130!news-west.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!lord.banki.hu!not-for-mail Does someone with some knowledge of the russian MicroPDP models reads this group? I acquired a machine called MIKI Micro 11/23 System 2500 Team Computer, and it seems it has a russian F-11-clone CPU and some rather strange cards with cyrillian letters on it. The cards are probably from the Soviet company "Elektronika". Now I'm not familiar with these cards, although I could identify them. I'd like to make this machine working again, can someone provide me with some information on how to do this? If yes I can write down all boards and the components on them... This is gettinig iteresting, a soviet uPDP :) / ___ _ _ ___ ____ ___ ___ /__//__///_///__ / /_ / ) Varga Akos Endre hamster@netweb.hu / // // /___/ / /__ / ( www.netweb.hu/hamster/english.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PDP 11 Page http://www.netweb.hu/hamster/pdp-11/ Old Irons http://www.netweb.hu/hamster/oldiron/e_index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin {at} j

s d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun May 31 11:47:34 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Pansonic Sr. Partner FS Message-ID: <357189A5.A0F29188@bbtel.com> FOR SALE Panasonic Sr. Partner XT (8088) class "portable" computer. Great condition, works great. 2 - 5.25" 360k floopy drives, 512k RAM, 8 bit ISA card slot, composite 9: green CGA monitor and external CGA port. Serial and parallel ports. Built in keyboard. NO built in printer.$45 plus shipping (about 25 lbs) For picture and other info see http://members.tripod..com/~RHBLAKE/fleamarket.html -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun May 31 12:04:54 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: RL-02 Question Message-ID: In the pile of stuff I got yesterday was an RL-02 and a Q-Bus controller for it. I've placed the Q-Bus controller in one of my SMS-1000's (PDP-11/73), and am trying to get the drive to spin up. Looking through my archives of the mailing list, it looks like the drive itself is fine. I think my problem is on the PDP end. The motor spins for about 15 seconds, I hear the click, but the fault light stays on. I've reversed the way I've got the cable plugged into the board, but still know luck. I suspect my problem is that the SMS-1000 doesn't support RL-02's. The Boot ROM's seem to be built into the beast, and I suspect it only supports Hard Drives (DU), TK50's and floppies. I guess my next project is to try and attach a TK-50 to the machine, as I got a small stack of TK50's with the stuff yesterday, and it looks like they've got TSX-11-something on them. Do PDP-11's have the VAX equivalent of Standalone Backup? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From archive at navix.net Sun May 31 13:19:11 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor & Deanna Wynn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: TI/99A Stuff References: <01bd8c18$e7342560$LocalHost@laptop> Message-ID: <35719F1E.32051C8A@navix.net> Hello: Sorry to send this to the list, but I was unsuccessful in getting this to the original poster. If you're reading, could you contact me via private e-mail, as I would like more information on acquiring the TI stuff you have for sale. Thanks, CORD COSLOR PG Manney wrote: > For sale, trade, whatever... > > manney@lrbcg.com > > TI-99/4A, adapter, RF Modulator > 2 Joysticks > Cassette Player > Speech Synthesis Module (Broken case, rattles when shaken) > Dust Cover > > CARTRIDGES > Household Budget Management > Hunt the Wumpus > The Attack > Chisolm Trail > Moon Mine > TI Invaders > Munch Man > Parsec > Football > Blasto > Adventure > Video Chess > Return to Pirate's Isle > > TAPES > Pirate Adventure (Tape) > > Books -- > The Official Scott Adams Adventure Hint Book > User's Reference Guide > Beginner's Basic > Quick Reference Guide > Instruction book addenda > TI 99/4A User's Guide (Casciato/Horsfall) > TI 99/4A Game Programs (Holtz) > Untitled instruction book for some sort of flight simulator (Winging It?) -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\| From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun May 31 13:38:01 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Q-Bus PDP-11 RAM Board (ANSWER) In-Reply-To: <9805311409.AA10549@alph02.triumf.ca> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at May 30, 98 11:58:50 pm Message-ID: >> The board in question is labled: >> NSC NS23D >> It also has three jumpers near the contacts. These are 2Mb boards. I redid the cards in the /73, pulled out the 256KW card that was in it, and put them in, it now reports 2044KW. Question, why 2044? I would think it would be 2048. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun May 31 14:00:23 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: RSX-11M Questions. Message-ID: I'd just like to say... THE /73 BOOTS FROM TAPE!!! On the downside, I haven't any idea what to do. I was able to get 7 RL-02 packs, some of which are supposedly bootable, and a stack of TK-50's yesterday, but the documentation had been trashed. :^( He still had the binders, and there must have been 3-4 feet of docs at one time :^( So bear with me, I've not got any documentation (donations gladly accepted :^) The tape boots up to the following: ------- RSX-11M/RSX-11M-PLUS Standalone Copy System V03 RSX-11M/RSX-11M-PLUS Standalone Configuration and Disk Sizing Program Valid Switches are: /CSR=nnnnnn to change the default CSR /VEC=nnn to change the default device vector /FOR=n to change the default magtape formatter number /DEV to list all default device CSR and vectors Enter first device: ------- I went ahead and told it /DEV and it printed out a list of different devices stating what was present. It sees my Hard Drive and the TK50. The question is, what is this, and what do I do? I just tried entering 'DU0:' and it took that, but that seems to be the limit of my ability to fathom it out. BTW I pulled the RL-02 controller out that I was asking about earlier for this. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 31 11:00:22 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Why does the Apple ][ have a hardware-encoded keyboard? In-Reply-To: <9805311407.AA07258@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at May 31, 98 07:07:37 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3943 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980531/2a600617/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun May 31 17:29:03 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: Q-Bus PDP-11 RAM Board (ANSWER) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at May 31, 98 11:38:01 am Message-ID: <9805312129.AA11078@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 196 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980531/8ad3b959/attachment.ksh From nerdware at laidbak.com Sun May 31 17:01:07 1998 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (nerdware@laidbak.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:13 2005 Subject: SCO Question Message-ID: <199805312158.QAA22936@garcon.laidbak.com> I was just given a unix publishing/graphics suite. Two questions -- (I realize this may be a little off-topic, so you can reply via e-mail and I apologize) 1) it runs on SCO Unix -- did I read somewhere this will also run on FreeBSD? My unix box will be running FreeBSD, so I hope so. 2) It's on a datacartridge.... I have an old IBM tape drive and an old Mountain Filesafe tape drive -- any idea if this is the right hardware to read the tape? I figured I'd come to the masters with these questions. Thanks. Paul Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 31 17:32:00 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:14 2005 Subject: Q-Bus PDP-11 RAM Board (ANSWER) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at May 31, 98 11:38:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 471 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980531/4b315794/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 31 14:53:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:14 2005 Subject: RL-02 Question In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at May 31, 98 10:04:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1581 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980531/329932f0/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Sat May 30 18:23:00 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:14 2005 Subject: Microprocessors and who made them? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Is there a reference somewhere listing all the different microprocessors > ever made and who the designers were? Preferrably such a list would > include a way (or hint of a way) to contact the designer of said > microprocessor. I do not know of such a list. IBM printed up an excellent book some time back describing the POWER architecture (OK, so the original fit on a few chips!) - including a list of all of the people that had thier hand in the design of the first bunch of RS/6000s. If you ever want to know who designed important analog chips, look back in Pease's column in *Electronic Design* - he has mentioned quite a few big names. William Donzelli william@ans.net From allisonp at world.std.com Sun May 31 19:12:05 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:14 2005 Subject: RL-02 Question Message-ID: <199806010012.AA27173@world.std.com> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at May 31, 98 10:04:54 am Message-ID: >First question : What Q-bus controller are you using as there are 2... I'm using the RLV12 and it is a quad height board. I've got the boards in the following order CPU - RAM - RLV12 >THe most common cause of a fault light is that the clock signal from the >controller to the drive is missing. This could be due to controller problems Great, that is the last thing I want to hear. I'd be happier with drive problems since I've got two other drives I can steal parts from. I'm curious, the machine had the following cards in it, and I'm wondering if one of these isn't required. I'm also wondering which would have boot ROMs on it: M3107 DHQ11-M 8-line async MUX module, DMA, Q-22 M7516 DELQA-M Ethernet interface (replaces DEQNA) M7546 TQK50-AA Q-BUS TAPE CONTROLLER,DBL 8.5TK50 M7941 DRV11 16-bit parallel line unit M7941 DRV11 16-bit parallel line unit M8016-YB KPV11-B Power fail, realtime clock, 120 Ohm Termination M8043 DLV11-J 4-SLU peripheral interface M8061 RLV12 RL01/RL02 DISK CONTROL,22-BIT ADDRE DB11R-1 Bus Repeater, MDB Systems, Inc. SDB B Q-Bus Mk II (Raster Based Graphics Card) DQ606 Floppy Controller NSC NS23D 2Mb RAM NSC NS23D 2Mb RAM M8192-YB KDJ11-AB LSI-11/73 CPU 8-Kbyte cache, FPJ11-AA compatible I got all the cards yesterday, except the CPU, I'm using an identical one that I had here. I'm using a SMS-1000 instead of the parts from the machine they had been in because I don't have the room, and am missing some of the power cables. I replaced the RLV12 with the TK-50 controller and booted off of TK50 around noon. Well, I'll work on the RL-02 some more tonite and see what I can come up with. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun May 31 20:16:31 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:14 2005 Subject: RL02 Me 2 Message-ID: Well, since we have raised the topic of RL02... I have a pair that I (for some reason) would like to have hanging on my freshly-undead 11/34. I have the RL11 (M7762) and two 02s, whose 'READY' lites have '0' and '1' respectively. I have no other docs or info presently. [NOTE I would love to purchase / pay for copying / trade for these docs] I have put the controller in place of a bus grant cardlet, and have the cables properly done and the terminator on drive '1'. I have a disk pack marked RT-ll V5 that was in drive 0 when I got them, and all the hardware came as a (once working) set. I have the old 9301 boot card in now... I have a 9312 that came with the RL02 system but it causes the 11/34 to hang on power-up. From posts addressed to Zane.. I think that I have controller issues... and I certainly have no idea how to place/configure the RL11.. but at least the Magic Smoke is staying in the ICs where it belongs. *********************** Second question: I have several RT-11 disks for the RK05... they *all* boot from ODT (via the 'DK' command) but once KMON is active it gets autistic... the dot prompt appears, but any and all commands elicit the ?ILL CMD? response.... and that's it. It does this with each and every one (6 discs so far) I have the docs for RT-11 V2, and the Quick Reference booklets... and a working 11/73 with V5 on it.. so I'm a little familiar with RT-11. Does this above behavior point to anything stupid I'm doing, or......? And to think: I gave up Volunteer Bomb Disposal for this...... Cheers John From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun May 31 21:05:19 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:14 2005 Subject: IBM stuff In-Reply-To: <199806010000.UAA20958@pimout2-int.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980531210519.37177b6e@intellistar.net> John, Hey, that really looks great! I heard a while back that IBM was going to post all of their patents on the net. Now if HP will just do the same! Joe At 07:56 PM 5/31/98 -0400, you wrote: >Hey Joe, >Check this out!! I was looking for an IBM web site that might have your >SCSI drive infomation on it when I stumbled upon this!! Boy...it's been a >long time since I thought about this stuff!! > >http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4541168 > >John > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun May 31 21:07:56 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:14 2005 Subject: IBM patents Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980531210756.37177d08@intellistar.net> Hey take a look at this "http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4541168". I wish the other computer companies would do this! Joe From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun May 31 18:55:56 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:14 2005 Subject: Ressurecting FDDs (was Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pa In-Reply-To: References: <199805281911.PAA27306@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at May 28, 98 03:12:45 pm Message-ID: <199806010352.XAA16422@smtp.interlog.com> On 29 May 98 at 0:18, Tony Duell wrote: > > On a related note, I have 3 Atari STs all with failed fdds. Any tips on > > re-alligning these with-out the rather expensive reallign equipment ? Quite a > > Depends on what you mean by 'expensive reallign equipment'. You _may be > able to do it with just a 'scope (i.e. you don't need an alignment disk), > but it's not that easy. > > What you do is hook up the 'scope (in differential input mode) to the > outputs of the read amplifier (normally TP1 and TP2 or TPA and TPB, but > not always). Read a known-good disk, and move the head slightly. Find 2 > points of equal amplitude drop, one on each side of the track, and set > the head midway between them. > > It's better to get the right alignment disk, though > With the current price of fdds so low, it's hard to justify buying something that I would rarely use. > > while ago I was able to revive another one by trial and error ,fiddling with > > the head placement. More blind luck than skill. I've heard that most 3 1/2 fdds > > will work by reversing the P-S connecter and I picked up a 720k Mitsumi to that > > Are you sure? Putting 12V where 5V should go is a bad idea, and I wasn't > aware that Atari drives had the connector backwards. > Yeah this is pretty well documented in the Atari threads. This isn't true for all brands however but I've never heard of any voltage conflicts. It's a 4 pin connecter and I wasn't aware of it also having 12v available on that connecter. Apparently most fdd brands will work 720 or 1440 but HD is not available without a modification, I just got unlucky with the one I bought. > > end recently to no avail. So rather than throwing away more money I would like > > to try fixing the ones I have first. I have some test equipment but > > unfortunately my old Dumont tube scope died the good death. (impossible to > > find neon current limiter). Any suggestions ? > > Do you mean neon current limiter? I've heard of neons being used as > voltage stabilisers - in fact it was quite common. If one of those has > failed (which is not common), then you should be able to find one of a > similar voltage, or use a string of zener diodes to replace it. > It's been a while since I messed with it, but IIRC thats how it was described. There was one on the X-circuit and another on the Y side. A voltage stabilizer would make more sense tho. I figured there was likely a newer substitute I could use but haven't the electronics savvy to do so. I have a son that works for a major electronics supply company but he was unable to find one. Likely they only deal with newer part manufacturers and I didn't pursue it with the resellers. > > > > ciao larry > > lwalker@interlog.com > > > > -tony > > > lwalker@interlog.com From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun May 31 23:13:27 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:14 2005 Subject: RL-02 proves me an Idiot! Message-ID: Well, I've got my RL-02 on the /73 working. The cable on the back had the locking key in the unlocked position. Arrrgggghhhhh, it took me a day to figure that one out! Lesson learned, visual inspections just don't cut it! Of course I don't seem to have Boot ROM's in the SMS-1000 that support the RL-02. I tell it to boot dl0: and it tells me it's an illegal device. Yet the RSX11M boot tape tells me that's the device name. I still haven't been able to figure out what they guy I got this stuff off of could have been using to boot it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From outreach at sufia.net Sat May 30 06:17:18 1998 From: outreach at sufia.net (Tom or Marsha) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:14 2005 Subject: tandy printer Message-ID: <356FEABE.70B7@sufia.net> I looked up some useful info (though I never used it) recently for an old Tandy pin printer at their website. It was exceptionally complete and very helpful, including drivers if I remember right. tandy.com? if not, search. Sorry if someone else answered this earlier. Tom Penington-- outreach@sufia.net From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 31 19:41:36 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:14 2005 Subject: RL-02 Question In-Reply-To: Tony Duell "Re: RL-02 Question" (May 31, 20:53) References: Message-ID: <9806010141.ZM25236@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On May 31, 20:53, Tony Duell wrote: > And I'm not sure if the RLV11 works in 22 bit addressing systems (Tim? > Allison?) I've only got 18 bit addressing CPUs here. It will work in a Q22 backplane providing you remove two links, which otherwise cause the RLV11 to use BC1/BD1 for "other than BDAL18/19". It has to be a straight backplane, with CD-interconnect, of course. Even then, it only does 18-bit DMA, so whether it's useful depends on the O/S -- RSX11 and Unix manage fine, but I don't know about RT-11. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York